# Will Uber Go Under?



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Uber, the huge taxi service, is undoubtedly still reeling from its defeat in China. After investing $2 billion to get a foothold in the Chinese market, Uber sold out to its competitor, Didi Chuxing, and agreed to be a junior partner in China.

While this is a dramatic story that made headlines across the country, a less covered story could have far more impact on Uber's future. This is the story of Uber's departure from Austin, Texas.

Uber, along with Lyft, stopped operating in Austin in early May after the city's voters endorsed a requirement that drivers for these services had to be fingerprinted and undergo background checks. The companies complained that the requirement placed an onerous burden on them and instead said that they would just stop operating in the city.

Uber, the huge taxi service, is undoubtedly still reeling from its defeat in China. After investing $2 billion to get a foothold in the Chinese market, Uber sold out to its competitor, Didi Chuxing, and agreed to be a junior partner in China.

While this is a dramatic story that made headlines across the country, a less covered story could have far more impact on Uber's future. This is the story of Uber's departure from Austin, Texas.

Uber, along with Lyft, stopped operating in Austin in early May after the city's voters endorsed a requirement that drivers for these services had to be fingerprinted and undergo background checks. The companies complained that the requirement placed an onerous burden on them and instead said that they would just stop operating in the city.

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As a practical matter, the real issue almost certainly was not the difficulty of fingerprinting. After all, taxi companies across the country have complied with similar requirements for decades and it is unlikely that the management of these old-styled cab companies are much more competent than Uber's management.

Rather, the issue was likely that Uber is worried about its drivers being labeled as employees. Uber claims that its drivers are independent contractors, not employees. As independent contractors, Uber is not responsible for paying Social Security taxes, nor is it liable for workers' compensation for drivers who get hurt in traffic accidents. It also doesn't have to withhold income taxes. And, independent contractors don't have the right to unionize.

Uber has been involved in several lawsuits over the classification of drivers as independent contractors. It is worried that background checks and fingerprinting will be factors that could tip the balance from independent contractor to employee. Therefore Uber decided it was best just to leave Austin.

The immediate impact of Uber's departure was to take away jobs from thousands of drivers. It also left Austin without a transportation service that many residents had come to depend upon. However this situation did not last long. Within a month six new services were filling the void, apparently they have the ability to fingerprint drivers.

This raises the issue of whether Uber will really be able to monopolize the taxi industry, or at least capture a very large share. The experience in Austin indicates that it may be very difficult to maintain a monopoly or near monopoly in the taxi industry. What Uber seems to be counting on is a mix of regulatory uncertainty and political power to give it an advantage over competitors. (It hired on David Plouffe, President Obama's top political strategist, as an adviser.)

The belief that Uber will be able to obtain a near monopoly explains it $66 billion market capitalization. Such a price would not make sense for even a very large actor in the traditional taxi industry.

While Uber's political connections probably protect it from any anti-trust actions coming out of the Obama administration, Austin's experience suggests a very simple way to rein in the company. Other cities could impose the same reasonable requirement as Austin; they could require that Uber and other taxi companies do background checks and fingerprint their drivers. If Uber follows the Austin precedent, then it may have to shut down in many other cities in the not too distant future. This would open up these markets to new competition, just as was the case in Austin.

This will likely be a very good economic development strategy for cities that go this route. Uber has been willing to lower fares to drive out competition, even if this has meant losing money. However the end goal has been to secure a monopoly or near monopoly in the market, which clearly is the basis of its enormous market value. No one pays a huge price for stock in a company that they expect to keep losing money.

By driving Uber out of the market, cities can help to keep their taxi industry competitive. They are also likely to be opening up opportunities for locally based taxi services. This will mean that instead of sending profits out to the billionaires of Silicon Valley, they are more likely to be generating income for local entrepreneurs. And, they are more likely to have taxi companies that will seek to work with regulators rather than fighting and/or ignoring them.

Who knows, if this trend catches on it may deflate Uber's market cap, helping to rebuild the middle class in the Bay area. And if a deflated Uber brings the stock price of some other high-flying tech companies down to earth, it could even help the cause of affordable housing in San Francisco. This is clearly a win-win all around.

www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/will-uber-go-unter_b_11396046.html


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## Taxi Driver in Arizona (Mar 18, 2015)

I've been predicting an Uber bankruptcy for nearly a year now. With the infusion of $3.5 billion from the Saudis they may be able to hang on for a few years, but Uber has never turned a profit and I predict they never will.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

How many quarters did amazon have a profit? One? I'm not worried about uber, and from reading all the posts on how much uber is making a killing off the drivers without doing anything...they are secretly rolling in it..


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## ChortlingCrison (Mar 30, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> How many quarters did amazon have a profit? One? I'm not worried about uber, and from reading all the posts on how much uber is making a killing off the drivers without doing anything...they are secretly rolling in it..


No they're not. They're just bleeding all the money that investors keep feeding them.


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## Taxi Driver in Arizona (Mar 18, 2015)

drexl_s said:


> How many quarters did amazon have a profit? One? I'm not worried about uber, and from reading all the posts on how much uber is making a killing off the drivers without doing anything...they are secretly rolling in it..


How many $100 million plus lawsuits has Amazon had to deal with?

How many cities/countries banned Amazon from operating?


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/will-uber-go-unter_b_11396046.html


The beginning of the story almost doesn't make sense. It talks about about fingerprinting and background checks that taxi companies have been performing for decades and how Uber thinks that will help classify their partners as employees. I don't know of one taxi driver/operator that is an employee. And most taxi drivers are driving a company vehicle. If you compare a taxi driver to an Uber driver it seems the taxi driver is much more of an employee then an Uber driver.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> How many $100 million plus lawsuits has Amazon had to deal with?
> 
> How many cities/countries banned Amazon from operating?


Doesn't matter as it is part of doing business, question/comment was how long can they operate with a loss, and I said amazon had only one quarter that was not negative. And they are still in business...


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## Taxi Driver in Arizona (Mar 18, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> The beginning of the story almost doesn't make sense. It talks about about fingerprinting and background checks that taxi companies have been performing for decades and how Uber thinks that will help classify their partners as employees. I don't know of one taxi driver/operator that is an employee. And most taxi drivers are driving a company vehicle. If you compare a taxi driver to an Uber driver it seems the taxi driver is much more of an employee then an Uber driver.


Perhaps we have all been misclassified for decades.


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## Taxi Driver in Arizona (Mar 18, 2015)

drexl_s said:


> Doesn't matter as it is part of doing business, question/comment was how long can they operate with a loss, and I said amazon had only one quarter that was not negative. And they are still in business...


Being sued into bankruptcy is part of doing business?


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## yojimboguy (Mar 2, 2016)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> The beginning of the story almost doesn't make sense. It talks about about fingerprinting and background checks that taxi companies have been performing for decades and how Uber thinks that will help classify their partners as employees. I don't know of one taxi driver/operator that is an employee. And most taxi drivers are driving a company vehicle. If you compare a taxi driver to an Uber driver it seems the taxi driver is much more of an employee then an Uber driver.


I agree with this. I can't imagine how fingerprinting drivers will somehow inevitably force Uber to classify them as employees rather than contractors. They already do background checks, the fingerprints are just more facts to check.

But I agree that if Uber _is_ eventually forced to treat drivers as employees for whatever reason, THAT could kill Uber.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

yojimboguy said:


> But I agree that if Uber _is_ eventually forced to treat drivers as employees for whatever reason, THAT could kill Uber.


Can you imagine the HR dept at Uber? It would be like the phrase "a monkey f*%#ing a football". And besides abiding by Federal Employment guidelines, each state has additional guidelines. But the cost for Uber to operate like an employer would force Uber to most likely charge more then the traditional cab companies.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> Being sued into bankruptcy is part of doing business?


Lol my company has huge budget for lawyers and payouts, it is all part of running a business... some have bigger budgets than others...


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## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

Uber doenst play nice to its drivers or users. Passengers don't play nice to drivers and drivers continue to rape passengers. This company will face endless lawsuits that potentially could bring it to its knees. 
Add countries and cities continuing to regulate it, or outright ban them further degrades its value. 
Then there'a competition. Limo services and taxis have thier own apps that cater to personal needs and wants. Elon Musk, General Motors, Lyft all want market share. 
Also the dreaded 1099 employment that Hilary Clinton wants to close; it's a loophole. Uber wants Trump to take presidency no doubt.


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## Ca$h4 (Aug 12, 2015)

By not giving proper background checks Uber hires more Drivers who have "sexual assault" and "violent felony" backgrounds who shouldn't be dealing with the public in such close quarters as a car. Uber doesn't care because it would cut down on its potential Driver pool which would negatively impact its bottom line profit, and also, as article states Uber would be vulnerable to be judged a "employer" by the courts, which would destroy Uber's model altogether. More and more cities are realizing the risks to the public of not giving proper background checks to Drivers, so Uber is slowly losing on the Driver background issue. Too bad some people will suffer violent Drivers because Uber don't care.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

I can't believe you can say with a straight face that uber does not care. They do, and by the way, you think your kids are safe because you submit to local police for background check as field trip driver? A friend that works for my local PD has to approve checks with DUIs to allow them to drive as the school set request for only sex offenders. So she drives all field trips. Anyhow, off topic, just that background checks are not perfect, and depending on how deep it goes who knows what they find on anyone, including me.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

BurgerTiime said:


> Uber doenst play nice to its drivers or users. Passengers don't play nice to drivers and drivers continue to rape passengers. This company will face endless lawsuits that potentially could bring it to its knees.
> Add countries and cities continuing to regulate it, or outright ban them further degrades its value.
> Then there'a competition. Limo services and taxis have thier own apps that cater to personal needs and wants. Elon Musk, General Motors, Lyft all want market share.
> Also the dreaded 1099 employment that Hilary Clinton wants to close; it's a loophole. Uber wants Trump to take presidency no doubt.


Dreaded 1099, what the hell? 1099 is one of the greatest opportunities for people to go and be their own boss. More and more I read on here, it is the drivers here that are screwing up uber, not uber screwing us. Hate uber, freaking delete the app and go on with your life, stop *****ing and trolling around here.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

drexl_s said:


> you think your kids are safe because you submit to local police for background check as field trip driver? A friend that works for my local PD has to approve checks with DUIs to allow them to drive as the school set request for only sex offenders.
> 
> background checks are not perfect, and depending on how deep it goes who knows what they find on anyone, including me.


If the School Board is allowing people with recent DWIs to drive a school bus, that is a matter to be discussed with the School Board. There is little, if any, connexion between TNC and School Board policies. If your argument, here, does anything, it bolsters the arguments of those who do not consider a private background check sufficient.

In the District of Columbia, any applicant for a hack or limousine licence must submit to an FBI fingerprint and background check.



drexl_s said:


> 1099 is one of the greatest opportunities for people to go and be their own boss.
> 
> More and more I read on here, it is the drivers here that are screwing up uber, not uber screwing us.


You can add to that the 1099's making sure that people do pay taxes. While I am no fan of taxes, if I must pay them, so must everyone else. I own my home, so I must pay my taxes, or the Internal Revenue will take it away from me. I do not have to like paying them, Y-E-T, at least, although depending on who wins in November and what anyone wins, liking it might become a requirement. If I must pay, I fail to understand how anyone who is trying to duck paying expects any sympathy from me.

The drivers do have their part to play in "screwing up uber", to use your words. Those of us who point out that receive all sorts of name-calling, abuse and trolling in response. I will read one driver's posting all of the horrible things that cab drivers allegedly do and criticise them harshly for supposedly doing it. On another topic, I will read the same driver's bragging about doing all of those same things to a passenger who rubbed him the wrong way. The drivers do have their part to play in this, which is something that goes far too unacknowledged on these Boards.

Still, the TNC s are not without their well deserved blame for how they treat the drivers. Add to that some of the other TNC policies and it is obvious that more than a few of the laments that you read on these Boards are not illegitimate.


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## ChortlingCrison (Mar 30, 2016)

Another Uber Driver said:


> If the School Board is allowing people with recent DWIs to drive a school bus, that is a matter to be discussed with the School Board. There is little, if any, connexion between TNC and School Board policies. If your argument, here, does anything, it bolsters the arguments of those who do not consider a private background check sufficient.
> 
> In the District of Columbia, any applicant for a hack or limousine licence must submit to an FBI fingerprint and background check.
> 
> ...


I think "the uber school bus" has a nice ring to it.


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## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

drexl_s said:


> I can't believe you can say with a straight face that uber does not care. They do, and by the way, you think your kids are safe because you submit to local police for background check as field trip driver? A friend that works for my local PD has to approve checks with DUIs to allow them to drive as the school set request for only sex offenders. So she drives all field trips. Anyhow, off topic, just that background checks are not perfect, and depending on how deep it goes who knows what they find on anyone, including me.


Yeah they care sooooo much they want to "get rid of the dude in the car". Uber's long term goal is to entirely get rid of you! Thats how much they care about you, replace you with with a car that has no driver. Get a clue.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

BurgerTiime said:


> Yeah they care sooooo much they want to "get rid of the dude in the car". Uber's long term goal is to entirely get rid of you! Thats how much they care about you, replace you with with a car that has no driver. Get a clue.


You are so funny, you think that investing in driverless cars will take the driver out of the equation. I think you need a reality check. Not in our lifetime. Look at solar, everyone was hyped about solar in 1980s, and just recently, and even now, still super low acceptence. And here, you are talking about computers driving passengers around? And out of nowhere, these cars will appear, no, you will be buying the car and leasing it back to uber when you are not using it. So we got a very long ways to go. Uber will always need drivers, why do trains need engineers?


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## wk1102 (Dec 25, 2015)

I dont get it, uber did 1 billion rides, that's billion with a B, One thousand × one million... 1,000,000,000 in 6 months. The 6 months after they hit the first billion rides.

One billion rides in 6 months is roughly 5,500,000 per day, every day for 182 1/2 days. How is this company losing money. 

I just dont get it, Is it me?


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

wk1102 said:


> I dont get it, uber did 1 billion rides, that's billion with a B, One thousand × one million... 1,000,000,000 in 6 months. The 6 months after they hit the first billion rides.
> 
> I just dont get it, Is it me?


The same way as the biggest corporation in the world has a GNP (Gross National Product) in the trillions and is almost $27 trillion in debt. That's trillion with a T. And by the way, that malfunctioning corporation is called The United States of America. Poor management!!!!


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

wk1102 said:


> I dont get it, uber did 1 billion rides, that's billion with a B, One thousand × one million... 1,000,000,000 in 6 months. The 6 months after they hit the first billion rides.
> 
> One billion rides in 6 months is roughly 5,500,000 per day, every day for 182 1/2 days. How is this company losing money.
> 
> I just dont get it, Is it me?


Well consider all the expenses they have such as servers, paying people to protect their servers etc..

All the promotions they do... They do a billion rides but how many of those rides were free of charge? Refunded?

Then all the money going back to investors.

Politicians pockets by lobbying. In New York State they spent a million along with Lyft in a few months. Now consider all the money around the world they burn...

Then the loss they took to Didi where they were burning a billion+ a year.


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## wk1102 (Dec 25, 2015)

I look at some of the threads from other cities, Uber is paying some of these drivers as I make in a week and more in incentives. I can't see how this is even remotely smart. Raise the rates, cut the incentives, profit... If they can't turn a profit when we bare all of the automobile and labor costs how are they going to even think about maintaining a fleet of cars. Uber gets between 150 and 250 in rider fees from every ride, plus 20-25%

If the average ride is $10.00 Ubers cut of 5.5 million rides/day is roughly 12.5 million PER DAY! 

12.5 MILLION per day just in commission from out rides. plus another 8-10 million in safe riders fees. 

20-23 million per day, every day and they are losing money. 

I guess i need to go back to school or something because I just dont get it...


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

wk1102 said:


> I look at some of the threads from other cities, Uber is paying some of these drivers as I make in a week and more in incentives. I can't see how this is even remotely smart.
> 
> I guess i need to go back to school or something because I just dont get it...


No, you just need to understand big business. Big business is mostly speculation. Uber's cost are continuous and ongoing and most likely on the rise. All the "safe ride fee" is for insurance and with the exponential growth in the number of lawsuits over the past 3 years I'm sure their rates have skyrocketed. The 1,000 or so worldwide attorneys on a constant retainer aren't cheap. Uber just paid $10 million to Newark Airport for pickup rights. Uber has almost a 60% turnover rate per year. There is a reason why Uber has not gone public yet. They have a negative outlook by many economist which makes their speculation not good.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

drexl_s said:


> why do trains need engineers?


There used to be, and may still be, a copper mining railroad in Utah(?) that ran some rather long trains and large locomotives that ran, and may still run, its trains on remote control.


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## Taxi Driver in Arizona (Mar 18, 2015)

drexl_s said:


> Uber will always need drivers, why do trains need engineers?


If they can't fully automate trains, they'll never fully automate cars.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/will-uber-go-unter_b_11396046.html


In a HEART BEAT !

If investors get nervous,ITS over


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## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> The same way as the biggest corporation in the world has a GNP (Gross National Product) in the trillions and is almost $27 trillion in debt. That's trillion with a T. And by the way, that malfunctioning corporation is called The United States of America. Poor management!!!!


And don't forget Uber claims are based on most of them being illegal! What would Ubers number actually be if they were posted under a fully regulated market? Prob half that!


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## Ringo (Jul 2, 2016)

Turnover rate is absurd no wonder they don't want to pay for fingerprints and more background checking.


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## rembrandt (Jul 3, 2016)

Uber is gambling on the IPO. It believes that it can copy Facebook 's IPO success. However , Facebook is a real service and without the lawsuits. It remains to be seen how Uber can pull off the IPO without even disclosing the financial statement. Perception management can do a lot but Uber perception is not all rosey. Amazon and Tesla have been playing this game for long.


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## bobbybq (Jan 13, 2016)

My question is how come some of you people think you know it it all 
but drive taxi or uber/lyft for a living? I do it very part time but the stuff 
i read make me wonder? some people really should take business classes.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

In this one deal between Didi and Uber, Uber cut its 2 year $2bil loss in half and gained a 20% interest in Didi China. It is not unreasonable to assume that within a couple of years Uber will have recouped its entire China loss and begin to see profit from its position in Didi. 

As a 'bonus', Uber has just freed up $1bil/yr in cash flow to support its on-going efforts to out-flank its competition in the markets where it continues to operate. 

There is no question that the 'loser' in this deal is Lyft.


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## poopyhead (Jul 8, 2016)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Can you imagine the HR dept at Uber? It would be like the phrase "a monkey f*%#ing a football". And besides abiding by Federal Employment guidelines, each state has additional guidelines. But the cost for Uber to operate like an employer would force Uber to most likely charge more then the traditional cab companies.


 They'd have to outsource their HR and payroll work to other "independent contractors." They'd have a division called UberHR.


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## UberIsAllFubared (Feb 24, 2016)

I have always maintained that uber will be regulated out of business by municipalities.


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## backstreets-trans (Aug 16, 2015)

wk1102 said:


> I look at some of the threads from other cities, Uber is paying some of these drivers as I make in a week and more in incentives. I can't see how this is even remotely smart. Raise the rates, cut the incentives, profit... If they can't turn a profit when we bare all of the automobile and labor costs how are they going to even think about maintaining a fleet of cars. Uber gets between 150 and 250 in rider fees from every ride, plus 20-25%
> 
> If the average ride is $10.00 Ubers cut of 5.5 million rides/day is roughly 12.5 million PER DAY!
> 
> ...


I think you're forgetting lawyer fees. Lawyers cost about 300/hr and uber has to have them working around the clock in every state and many countries. When you add on the lobbying bills to pay off local and state governments the expenses get real large real fast.

The free rides taken are probably huge too. Every $20 ride credit is a $16 dollar loss to uber. Most college kids probably get free rides multiple times with multiple accounts.

Account fraud and credit card fraud are also a huge expense. If someone uses a stolen card uber use to eat the expense. Now they're trying to back charge drivers but I don't think they can legally since they're in charge of validating the customer's credit cards.

For a company to go through 10 billion and not really have any assets to show for the money is really scary. They own a few buildings and some networking equipment but not much creditors can repo. This house of cards could topple if some regulations go against them.

There have been several recent articles on how investors are trying to find a way to short ubers stock but it's hard because they haven't gone public yet.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> Being sued into bankruptcy is part of doing business?


And look at the failures of Trump Inc. and yet he is a Billionare.


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## JD1278 (Jul 26, 2016)

It all depends what comes first. Either lawsuits or regulations pushing uber out or taxis tapping out. It will take a while for the lawsuits and regulations to kill uber and of course city to city it will vary. If taxis get knocked out of business you know uber will jack up the rates. Especially if they're the only ride share in the area. I think a big threat to uber may be Juno if they launch successfully. With a more driver friendly ride share uber will lose a lot of drivers and Juno will grow. However that all depends on if they make it.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> The beginning of the story almost doesn't make sense. It talks about about fingerprinting and background checks that taxi companies have been performing for decades and how Uber thinks that will help classify their partners as employees. I don't know of one taxi driver/operator that is an employee. And most taxi drivers are driving a company vehicle. If you compare a taxi driver to an Uber driver it seems the taxi driver is much more of an employee then an Uber driver.


Yes, I thought the same. This is a meandering, confused ramble of a story in search of a point.


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

drexl_s said:


> You are so funny, you think that investing in driverless cars will take the driver out of the equation. I think you need a reality check. Not in our lifetime. Look at solar, everyone was hyped about solar in 1980s, and just recently, and even now, still super low acceptence. And here, you are talking about computers driving passengers around? And out of nowhere, these cars will appear, no, you will be buying the car and leasing it back to uber when you are not using it. So we got a very long ways to go. Uber will always need drivers, why do trains need engineers?


Just wanted to point out that even though an engineer is the one who drives the train, he is not responsible for the operation of the Train, the conductor is,

*Train Conductor:*
Conductors are responsible for the train's entire crew, whether that be just the engineer or the handful of other crew members some trains need, like locomotive firers and switch operators. The conductor will relay information to the crew members to ensure the efficient operation of the locomotive. In some cases, the conductor personallyoperates track switches and inspects equipment. On a passenger train, they also oversee interactions with passengers.


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## canyon (Dec 22, 2015)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> I've been predicting an Uber bankruptcy for nearly a year now. With the infusion of $3.5 billion from the Saudis they may be able to hang on for a few years, but Uber has never turned a profit and I predict they never will.


Maybe thats why they need to raise the rates


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## rembrandt (Jul 3, 2016)

canyon said:


> Maybe thats why they need to raise the rates


They will raise after going IPO. Shareholders are unlikely to subsize rides.


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## Euius (May 19, 2016)

Long term, Uber will the Xerox of ridesharing.

You'll still refer to them everytime you get a car, but they'll have 1% of the business.

It's almost inevitable. Whats happening is that Uber is spending big money fighting legal battles and creating markets, but those battles once won and those markets once created are _public goods_, and Uber cannot restrict access to them. So a newer, leaner, competitor walks in without the debt involved in fighting the legal fight, or in expanding the market.

But, and drivers here will hate this: Fares are not going to increase. A competitor does not attract riders by charging more. There will be some give on the commission, after all the costs are less, but at the same time much of the bonuses will disappear.


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## Euius (May 19, 2016)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> If they can't fully automate trains, they'll never fully automate cars.


When BART was introduced in the 1970s, they decided against computer controlling the trains because it would make passengers "nervous". Not because it was impossible.

Instead "drivers" do nothing but hold a dead mans switch. A computer still decides how fast and what routes.

That was in 1972. Computers have gotten better since then, and the populace has gotten more accepting of automation.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Euius said:


> Long term, Uber will the Xerox of ridesharing.
> 
> You'll still refer to them everytime you get a car, but they'll have 1% of the business.
> 
> ...


Very well said.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

Euius said:


> Long term, Uber will the Xerox of ridesharing.
> 
> You'll still refer to them everytime you get a car, but they'll have 1% of the business.
> 
> ...


No, Uber has so much recognition, it will be real hard for anyone to take over. What they will do


Euius said:


> When BART was introduced in the 1970s, they decided against computer controlling the trains because it would make passengers "nervous". Not because it was impossible.
> 
> Instead "drivers" do nothing but hold a dead mans switch. A computer still decides how fast and what routes.
> 
> That was in 1972. Computers have gotten better since then, and the populace has gotten more accepting of automation.


And today, there is still a conductor/driver of bart. Sorry, you can't program a computer for every possible scenario. Accidents will happen, and any death will be wrongful death due to negligence on programming. Need a human behind the wheel.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> It is not unreasonable to assume that within a couple of years Uber will have recouped its entire China loss and begin to see profit from its position in Didi. As a 'bonus', Uber has just freed up $1bil/yr in cash flow to support its on-going efforts to out-flank its competition in the markets where it continues to operate.


It is entertaining, at the least, to read the various spins on the Uber/DiDi business. Depending on whom you ask, Uber lost, Uber won, Uber minimised its losses, Uber got owned, Uber profited minorly, Uber dumped a real problem on DiDi, Uber will come out well, Uber is going to get reamed.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Euius said:


> But, and drivers here will hate this: Fares are not going to increase. A competitor does not attract riders by charging more. There will be some give on the commission, after all the costs are less, but at the same time much of the bonuses will disappear.


This exact thing is happening in Phoenix right now with a new TNC called FARE. They entered the market sometime around April with a little higher rate and lower commission. Within a month I think they lowered their rates almost 20% to compete with Uber. They only charge 10% if the driver secures the client and they advertise no surge. I think they use the same insurance company as Uber, James River. I can see Uber telling James River to up the rates on any competition or they'll pull the plug and seek coverage elsewhere. It's only going to get worse for drivers. After Uber X cut rates by almost 50% in early '14 there was still a record # of drivers signing up.


----------



## the ferryman (Jun 7, 2016)

Expanding too fast is a real concern. They are apeing the amazon model of fast growth, but amazon seems to have got it down while Uber could be too much of a one trick pony. Lots of add-ons over time with amazon and I'm having trouble seeing that with uber. For me it's the too low rates for their providers/drivers.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

O


the ferryman said:


> Expanding too fast is a real concern. They are apeing the amazon model of fast growth, but amazon seems to have got it down while Uber could be too much of a one trick pony. Lots of add-ons over time with amazon and I'm having trouble seeing that with uber. For me it's the too low rates for their providers/drivers.


I don't think uber wants professional drivers, they really want part timers. That is why they fight regulations, they would be too vested in them; if only pros, they would pass registration costs to the driver.


----------



## the ferryman (Jun 7, 2016)

IIt is entertaining, at the least, to read the various spins on the Uber/DiDi business. Depending on whom you ask, Uber lost, Uber won, Uber minimised its losses, Uber got owned, Uber profited minorly, Uber dumped a real problem on DiDi, Uber will come out well, Uber is going to get reamed.

It's like anything else, you roll the dice and you move your mice. Then you see what happens. It's still just people guessing in the end.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberIsAllFubared said:


> I have always maintained that uber will be regulated out of business by municipalities.


State by state, Uber (and Lyft) is lobbying state legislatures to take control of TNCs by implementing statewide regulations that prohibit municipalities from enacting local local regs that are contrary to state law. Overall, it's a good thing... but since Uber's lawyers are in large part authoring the legislation, the regs do nothing to protect drivers/workers.


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## UberIsAllFubared (Feb 24, 2016)

Hunter420 said:


> Really?even if the flashing sign says to drop off in arrivals?





Euius said:


> Long term, Uber will the Xerox of ridesharing.
> 
> You'll still refer to them everytime you get a car, but they'll have 1% of the business.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. One of ubers biggest problems, because of the low rates they have established, the quality of their product (Drivers) is drastically going down... they are becoming the very thing they are trying to replace, the taxi driver. Because of this, other rideshare companies will come into the market place offering a better experience.

Also, for the most part, drivers hate uber. The good ones who can get "hired" at these other companies will leave in a heart beat. uber spends so much on driver acquisition, but doesn't really have anything to show for it because of the attrition rates of their drivers. How in the world is their business sustainable then?

And taxi's are not gonna disappear. Go to the taxi lot on 98 street at LAX. I was shocked at how many taxi's there are there.


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## rembrandt (Jul 3, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> O
> 
> I don't think uber wants professional drivers, they really want part timers. That is why they fight regulations, they would be too vested in them; if only pros, they would pass registration costs to the driver.


Spot on! Uber preferably wants someone who would take Uber as a religion. See an example :


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## DriverX (Aug 5, 2015)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> I've been predicting an Uber bankruptcy for nearly a year now. With the infusion of $3.5 billion from the Saudis they may be able to hang on for a few years, but Uber has never turned a profit and I predict they never will.


You can bet that Saudi cash infusion came with strings attached. Travis' Master Plan 2.0 will certainly not involve self driving ELECTRIC cars.


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## DriverX (Aug 5, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> The beginning of the story almost doesn't make sense. It talks about about fingerprinting and background checks that taxi companies have been performing for decades and how Uber thinks that will help classify their partners as employees. I don't know of one taxi driver/operator that is an employee. And most taxi drivers are driving a company vehicle. If you compare a taxi driver to an Uber driver it seems the taxi driver is much more of an employee then an Uber driver.


Yes it needs clarification. The article seems to miss the bigger issue created by fingerprints, which is, that Uber will lose hundreds of thousand of dollars by having to deactivate all the felons and undocumented drivers.


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## uber strike (Jan 10, 2016)

Ca$h4 said:


> By not giving proper background checks Uber hires more Drivers who have "sexual assault" and "violent felony" backgrounds who shouldn't be dealing with the public in such close quarters as a car. Uber doesn't care because it would cut down on its potential Driver pool which would negatively impact its bottom line profit, and also, as article states Uber would be vulnerable to be judged a "employer" by the courts, which would destroy Uber's model altogether. More and more cities are realizing the risks to the public of not giving proper background checks to Drivers, so Uber is slowly losing on the Driver background issue. Too bad some people will suffer violent Drivers because Uber don't care.


you talk about "close quarters". you fail to realize that the driver is also vulnerable to such close quarters with the rider. 
at least uber already has a form of background checks on drivers. but there are no background checks on riders. in fact, uber does not even have riders true identity.
furthermore, it is evident that riders are the most threatening people in those close quarters. riders may be drunk and aggressive. riders can sit directly behind the driver. there is the potential for the driver to be out numbered 4 to 1, and there have been more attacks and assaults on drivers by uber riders than the contrary.
if uber is called upon to further background checks for drivers, they must be called to conduct background checks on riders.


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## unPat (Jul 20, 2016)

If you think uber will go down you're a fool. It might get hiccups from certain city but not all. Uber has a network that no other company will be able to match. Two cities that I know have a deal with uber where taking the bus is expensive than uber.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> The beginning of the story almost doesn't make sense. It talks about about fingerprinting and background checks that taxi companies have been performing for decades and how Uber thinks that will help classify their partners as employees. I don't know of one taxi driver/operator that is an employee. And most taxi drivers are driving a company vehicle. If you compare a taxi driver to an Uber driver it seems the taxi driver is much more of an employee then an Uber driver.


Portland, Oregon has a cab company called "EcoCab." They operate a fleet of "sticky old beat up" Tesla's ( don't want to ruin the stereotype, do we?  ) . Every single driver is an employee of EcoCab.

And FYI, I own my cab. I'm also a share holder with our company. We're an owner/operator cab company. I pay $25 bucks a day to support our infrastructure.

It seems you don't know much about the cab industry outside your circle.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

drexl_s said:


> Lol my company has huge budget for lawyers and payouts, it is all part of running a business... some have bigger budgets than others...


"Your company has a huge budget...." yet you have to "Uber" to earn a living?

Maybe you meant the company you work for that doesn't pay you enough to live on?


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## backstreets-trans (Aug 16, 2015)

the ferryman said:


> IIt is entertaining, at the least, to read the various spins on the Uber/DiDi business. Depending on whom you ask, Uber lost, Uber won, Uber minimised its losses, Uber got owned, Uber profited minorly, Uber dumped a real problem on DiDi, Uber will come out well, Uber is going to get reamed.
> 
> It's like anything else, you roll the dice and you move your mice. Then you see what happens. It's still just people guessing in the end.


I agree with you but one thing it does is give the uber competitors hope. They see that uber can be defeated. Austin TX is another example to the world that uber isn't the only game in town. These smaller companies in Austin are gaining valuable experience when uber left.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

If Uber went under, would Uberpeople.net go under?


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

phillipzx3 said:


> "Your company has a huge budget...." yet you have to "Uber" to earn a living?
> 
> Maybe you meant the company you work for that doesn't pay you enough to live on?


I don't uber for a living. That was one of my difficulties starting out. I make significantly more at regular job, that I thought uber was not worth my time. I set goals to get the referral bonus, 5 rides a night, and then, not sure when, it just became a game for me. Meaning, I got hooked at accepting pings and I now have hard time stopping. It's funny, but now I look at uber as how much my free time is worth, my regular work pays my mortgage and everything else, uber is for entertainment cash, but at same time it takes away my time from having fun. I just have a good balance between work, family, entertainment, and Uber time. Uber wants people like me, people who do not need to make 50 an hour, just 10-20 for some extra cash.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

bobbybq said:


> My question is how come some of you people think you know it it all
> but drive taxi or uber/lyft for a living? I do it very part time but the stuff
> i read make me wonder? some people really should take business classes.


If the stuff you read makes you wonder... ;-)

In most States, and I do mean most, operating you private vehicle as a cab without commercial insurance is illegal. There's very little to wonder about.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

phillipzx3 said:


> We're an owner/operator cab company. I pay $25 bucks a day to support our infrastructure.
> 
> It seems you don't know much about the cab industry outside your circle.


Put the joint down and read my post again. This time try to comprehend the word "seems". Also I'm not talking about a local mom and pop cab company like "EcoCab". I'm speaking of national companies like Yellow. 
I'm confused with the company you work with. You say you're an owner/operator cab company, but are you also an employee?


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

drexl_s said:


> I don't uber for a living. That was one of my difficulties starting out. I make significantly more at regular job, that I thought uber was not worth my time. I set goals to get the referral bonus, 5 rides a night, and then, not sure when, it just became a game for me. Meaning, I got hooked at accepting pings and I now have hard time stopping. It's funny, but now I look at uber as how much my free time is worth, my regular work pays my mortgage and everything else, uber is for entertainment cash, but at same time it takes away my time from having fun. I just have a good balance between work, family, entertainment, and Uber time. Uber wants people like me, people who do not need to make 50 an hour, just 10-20 for some extra cash.


Thanks for the novel explaining how you don't need to drive for Uber. 

Most people who have a decent job don't bother driving for Uber.....especially considering the risk to your family, financially

Uber wants people like you, for sure. They want suckers willing to trade equity in their car for a peanuts.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Put the joint down and read my post again. This time try to comprehend the word "seems". Also I'm not talking about a local mom and pop cab company like "EcoCab". I'm speaking of national companies like Yellow.
> I'm confused with the company you work with. You say you're an owner/operator cab company, but are you also an employee?


Is the joint comment meant to be some sort of juvenile insult?

We ( the cab company I'm with) OWN our cars. Is that clear enough? We also OWN the company. Is that clear enough? We pay $25 a day to support our infrastructure...our salaried employees (bookkeepers, electronic maintainence staff, instructors for defensive driving classes etc.). Is that clear enough?

Lastly, there is a cab company in Portland that uses Tesla Model S's for their cabs, and their drivers are ALL paid employees by the hour. Is that clear enough?



BTW...EcoCab operates in Washington,Oregon and Hawaii. Name this "national" cab company you speak of.

You claimed you didn't know of one cab company where the drivers were employees. I gave you one. I can't help it if you don't know as much as you think you do.

And FYI "Yellow Cab " is a fleet of 12 cars in Portland. Not exactly a national outfit. In fact, the Yellow Cab you speak of doesn't even exist in Oregon.


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## jonhjax (Jun 24, 2016)

based on some of the actions uber has taken in florida, i. e. refusal to show their actual insurance, refusal to provide municipalities with names, addresses, etc. of their drivers/independent contractors so the municipalties can make sure the drivers are operating legally in said municipalities, not telling drivers what they really need to legally operate and enabling these illegal drivers to operate and charging them commissions, is uber in violation of the RICO act, at least on a state level?


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## jonhjax (Jun 24, 2016)

oh yeah, uber isn't paying business taxes on uber x or xl either, since x and xl re operating illegally in some municipalities


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## vesolehome (Aug 2, 2015)

*Spotify*
*Pinterest
Instagram
Snapchat
Tumblr
Amazon
Lyft*

None of these companies have turned a profit. Some will eventually go under. I think Uber will be one of them. They are in too many markets that lose money. Lyft will merge with someone else (yet to be developed) and become more dominate.

This is a few months old, but relevant

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brianso...uber-with-path-to-profitability/#2389d9ee464e


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

phillipzx3 said:


> Is the joint comment meant to be some sort of juvenile insult?
> 
> We ( the cab company I'm with) OWN our cars. Is that clear enough? We also OWN the company. Is that clear enough? We pay $25 a day to support our infrastructure...our salaried employees (bookkeepers, electronic maintainence staff, instructors for defensive driving classes etc.). Is that clear enough?
> 
> ...


I apologize. I was talking about all the cab drivers in the big cities, the only ones I know. Like here in Phx, the 5th largest city has no cab drivers that are employees. Same as New York. I never heard of a cab driver being a hourly employee, but I guess they exist. We basically have three cab companies in Phx, with the largest having close to 700 cars. We do have a few mom and pop taxi companies with 5-10 cars, but they're all IC's also. In my 16 years of operating fare for hire I must say this is a first for me to hear of cab drivers that are employees. I know of limo drivers, personal drivers and shuttle drivers that are employees but never heard of a cab driver being one until now. Again, I apologize for being ignorant to the fact.


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## HERR_UBERMENSCH (Jun 3, 2016)

Trebor said:


> If Uber went under, would Uberpeople.net go under?


Probably, what content would be here without Uber?


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## Way2Lucky (Jul 14, 2016)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> I've been predicting an Uber bankruptcy for nearly a year now. With the infusion of $3.5 billion from the Saudis they may be able to hang on for a few years, but Uber has never turned a profit and I predict they never will.


This conversation asks one question that is actually remarkably easy to answer: Myspace was king until Facebook came along and did it better.

UBER is positioning themselves to become the next Myspace. While UBER forces their seasoned drivers to give up in frustration and seek other occupations, such as professional Black Car, North Korea just takes unhappy workers out and shoots them. Either way, you lose all the knowledge and experience those veteran workers held because you refuse to treat them with any respect or dignity whatsoever.

The first company to come along NOT FOLLOWING in UBER's footsteps (mis-steps) will find hundreds of thousands of drivers waiting to bail from the sinking SS UBER, which will quietly slip beneath the waves of history without so much as a gurgle. UBER is quickly becoming a caricature of itself and all that it hoped to be when it grew up. Instead it grew into a spoiled child like Kim Jong Un, whose absurd demands and complete detachment from reality will be their downfall.

History is not kind to fools nor their foolishness.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

HERR_UBERMENSCH said:


> Probably, what content would be here without Uber?


Uber People won't go under. There's many of us on this forum that have been in the industry long before Uber was even a wet spot in Travis' pants. And we'll still be here even after that wet spot is all dried and gone. I'm coming close to the million mile mark in this industry like a few others in this forum. We just never had a forum to sit and BS on. We would just meet up at some topless club after dropping our fares off there and complain about the pukers, the high pitch squealing drunk girl, the rising insurance rates, the rising gas prices etc. The same exact thing as we ***** about here. The only difference from back then till now is that a bad day's pay was $200 back then.


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## Louisvilleuberguy (Aug 3, 2016)

Uber will be another Amazon or even bigger. They have way to much money to influence whoever tbey need and can buy the votes needed for legislation.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

phillipzx3 said:


> Uber wants people like you, for sure. They want suckers willing to trade equity in their car for a peanuts.


You calling me sucker, lol. That trade in equity results in me buying a brand new car every three years on top of earning $13 an hour. I don't know about you, but that is a pretty good deal; oh, the car $40k. Not working for uber, you might have the car for 8-10 years, and pay from your savings. So yes, if trading my equity for new car makes me a sucker, then I am definitely proud to be a sucker.


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

Brooklyn said:


> Well consider all the expenses they have such as servers, paying people to protect their servers etc..
> 
> All the promotions they do... They do a billion rides but how many of those rides were free of charge? Refunded?
> 
> ...


I don't think the investors have gotten any payouts(


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> You calling me sucker, lol. That trade in equity results in me buying a brand new car every three years on top of earning $13 an hour. I don't know about you, but that is a pretty good deal; oh, the car $40k. Not working for uber, you might have the car for 8-10 years, and pay from your savings. So yes, if trading my equity for new car makes me a sucker, then I am definitely proud to be a sucker.


You think $13/hr is good money?


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> And look at the failures of Trump Inc. and yet he is a Billionare.


Bankruptcy isn't really a failure. You get to push your losses off onto your creditors. Kind of like gambling with other people's money.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

Rat said:


> You think $13/hr is good money?


Don't forget, new 40k car every three years. Yeah, extra $13 per hour vs nothing for playing video game or watching tv; not a bad deal at all. Also, the new car includes all maintenance costs. Hey, remember, I already make good income with my day job and as I said, uber is good for people that want to drive a few hours here and there. For me, even with the quoted 2014 rates, I could not support my family. But, extra disposable income, and "legitimate reason" for purchasing new cars, I take it. Oh, I assumed once I am done with my car it is worth zero. So whatever I sell it for, it is extra bonus for me. Everyone has to do their own math. But people like me, will keep uber in business.


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> Don't forget, new 40k car every three years. Yeah, extra $13 per hour vs nothing for playing video game or watching tv; not a bad deal at all. Also, the new car includes all maintenance costs. Hey, remember, I already make good income with my day job and as I said, uber is good for people that want to drive a few hours here and there. For me, even with the quoted 2014 rates, I could not support my family. But, extra disposable income, and "legitimate reason" for purchasing new cars, I take it. Oh, I assumed once I am done with my car it is worth zero. So whatever I sell it for, it is extra bonus for me. Everyone has to do their own math. But people like me, will keep uber in business.


You seem to think wearing out a car every three years us some sort of bonus.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

Rat said:


> You seem to think wearing out a car every three years us some sort of bonus.


Of course! No one can see the worn out engine parts, but everyone can see the cracked leather. Most people that complain about their ratings, probably have five or more year older vehicles. Newer car, better ratings, newer technology; yes, love the reason to get new car.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> Uber, the huge taxi service, is undoubtedly still reeling from its defeat in China. After investing $2 billion to get a foothold in the Chinese market, Uber sold out to its competitor, Didi Chuxing, and agreed to be a junior partner in China.
> 
> While this is a dramatic story that made headlines across the country, a less covered story could have far more impact on Uber's future. This is the story of Uber's departure from Austin, Texas.
> 
> ...


Clickbait nonsense. Full of inaccuracies.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> I've been predicting an Uber bankruptcy for nearly a year now. With the infusion of $3.5 billion from the Saudis they may be able to hang on for a few years, but Uber has never turned a profit and I predict they never will.


Worst prediction ever. They could be profitable tomorrow if they chose to. They are expanding, not losing money. Huge difference.

They were also infused with 6 billion in ownership value and 1 billion in cash from Didi.


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## LA Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

No cab driver ever goes hungry. Therefore, Uber will never go out of business.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Clickbait nonsense. Full of inaccuracies.


If you are directing your comments at me, I did not write the article. What you quoted is the article. Do not take my word for it, follow the link and it will read the same as what you quoted.

I found it on the web. It had something to do with Uber. I put the link up here as it was, with no comment in the Original Post, per the rules of the NEWS Boards.

The only comment that I have made on this topic that is directly related to the article, since then and thus far, is that I find the various spins on the whole DiDi/Uber business entertaining. Any other comments that I have made on this topic are, at the most, indirectly related to the article and are rather in response to statements of other posters.

If you are directing your comments at the person who wrote the article, you are directing them properly.


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## m1a1mg (Oct 22, 2015)

It amazes me the number of business majors and MBAs that hang on uberpeople.net. A multi-billion dollar company will not simply vanish because you don't like the way they treat their sub-contractors. Lyft recently entered the market here. In a month, I've done 12 Lyft fares. I even question my pax about why they don't use Lyft more. Their answers are simple; they know Uber. There is much to be said about the value of name recognition. 

It further amazes me that people who have found a way to make Uber work for them are bashed and told they make peanuts. I am the perfect Uber driver. I am retired and go to school full time. I drive when it is convenient to me, and still make a net profit. I track my expenses meticulously. A large number of drivers n my market are also military retirees. It is an informed choice that I make and I'll continue to do it a long as I make money.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Rat said:


> You seem to think wearing out a car every three years us some sort of bonus.


Actually every 3 years is when a vehicle should be renewed.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

Louisvilleuberguy said:


> Uber will be another Amazon or even bigger. They have way to much money to influence whoever tbey need and can buy the votes needed for legislation.


If you were worth 50 billion dollars and needed some cash, would you borrow money from yourself for free (or pay yourself back with interest) or borrow money from a third party and pay them interest?

If Uber was sitting on a pile of dough, they'd not be begging for more outside funding. It's all a dog-n-pony show.


----------



## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

m1a1mg said:


> It amazes me the number of business majors and MBAs that hang on uberpeople.net. A multi-billion dollar company will not simply vanish because you don't like the way they treat their sub-contractors. Lyft recently entered the market here. In a month, I've done 12 Lyft fares. I even question my pax about why they don't use Lyft more. Their answers are simple; they know Uber. There is much to be said about the value of name recognition.
> 
> It further amazes me that people who have found a way to make Uber work for them are bashed and told they make peanuts. I am the perfect Uber driver. I am retired and go to school full time. I drive when it is convenient to me, and still make a net profit. I track my expenses meticulously. A large number of drivers n my market are also military retirees. It is an informed choice that I make and I'll continue to do it a long as I make money.


My company is worth $100 billion. Don't ask me to prove it. All you need to know is that I say it's so.

Uber can't do an IPO because it's house of cards will tumble....sort of why Trump won't release his tax returns.

Does Enron ring a bell? Same game, new name


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## Way2Lucky (Jul 14, 2016)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Uber People won't go under. There's many of us on this forum that have been in the industry long before Uber was even a wet spot in Travis' pants. And we'll still be here even after that wet spot is all dried and gone. I'm coming close to the million mile mark in this industry like a few others in this forum. We just never had a forum to sit and BS on. We would just meet up at some topless club after dropping our fares off there and complain about the pukers, the high pitch squealing drunk girl, the rising insurance rates, the rising gas prices etc. The same exact thing as we ***** about here. The only difference from back then till now is that a bad day's pay was $200 back then.


I'd join you all at the topless club to discuss further, but I'm an UBER driver and they get really mad when I throw my loose change on the stage because I barely make enough to pay the cover charge at the door. Ironic isn't it? A place where women uncover has a cover charge!?!


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Actually every 3 years is when a vehicle should be renewed.


You mean replaced?


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Rat said:


> You mean replaced?


Yes, sorry. Renewed, sounds like marriage vows.


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## F-uber (Aug 1, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Put the joint down and read my post again. This time try to comprehend the word "seems". Also I'm not talking about a local mom and pop cab company like "EcoCab". I'm speaking of national companies like Yellow.
> I'm confused with the company you work with. You say you're an owner/operator cab company, but are you also an employee?


To my knowledge, there in no national cab company. For example, I drive for Yellow Cab in Austin. This particular company is regional. It operates here and in San Antonio and Houston. Apparently the name can be used anywhere.

There is a great deal of public misperception about the industry and it is spread by dimwits on right wing talk radio. There is no such thing as a national cab company unless one considers TNCs like Uber/Lyft cab companies. There are no taxi cartels nor unions nor powerful lobbies (at least compared to the political clout that Uber/Lyft have.)

Several cities do in fact have driver-owned cab companies known as co-ops. Austin has one launching as we speak.

Now I can't even recall where I placed the remainder of my joint.


----------



## F-uber (Aug 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Worst prediction ever. They could be profitable tomorrow if they chose to. They are expanding, not losing money. Huge difference.
> 
> They were also infused with 6 billion in ownership value and 1 billion in cash from Didi.


From what I saw of their behavior in Austin, both Uber and Lyft enjoy playing with house money and burning through it. They decided that their business model doesn't work under even modest regulation, however, about ten or so smaller TNCs, willing to comply with the law, immediately saw $$$$$. Uber and Lyft left millions on the table out of sheer stupidity, pride, and stubbornness.

I wouldn't invest my money in them, but I will be glad to toss your money their way.


----------



## Slavic Riga (Jan 12, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> I don't uber for a living. That was one of my difficulties starting out. _*I make significantly more at regular job, that I thought uber was not worth my time. I set goals to get the referral bonus, 5 rides a night, and then, not sure when, it just became a game for me. Meaning, I got hooked at accepting pings and I now have hard time stopping.*_ It's funny, but now I look at uber as how much my free time is worth, my regular work pays my mortgage and everything else, uber is for entertainment cash, but at same time it takes away my time from having fun. I just have a good balance between work, family, entertainment, and Uber time. Uber wants people like me, people who do not need to make 50 an hour, just 10-20 for some extra cash.


Honestly. This is my Opinion.
The people who *claim* to have high profile jobs & claim to do Uber, are narcissist & greedy. Its better to be content with what one have than be greedy. "Money accumulated on greed cannot endure for long".


----------



## Slavic Riga (Jan 12, 2016)

m1a1mg said:


> It amazes me the number of business majors and MBAs that hang on uberpeople.net. A multi-billion dollar company will not simply vanish because you don't like the way they treat their sub-contractors. Lyft recently entered the market here. In a month, I've done 12 Lyft fares. I even question my pax about why they don't use Lyft more. Their answers are simple; they know Uber. There is much to be said about the value of name recognition.
> 
> It further amazes me that *people who have found a way to make Uber work for them are bashed and told they make peanuts*. I am the perfect Uber driver. I am *retired* and go to school full time. I drive when it is convenient to me, and still make a net profit. I track my expenses meticulously. A large number of drivers n my market are also *military retirees.* It is an informed choice that I make and I'll continue to do it a long as I make money.


_Assuming, the home that you live in is paid for & you also get a pension. The same with the military retirees. Having a pension is like financial stability. It helps to know that there will be a constant cash flow to sustain or maintain a livelihood. The income/money is guaranteed whether the person/s are employed or have a job.

Now lets look at the same, from another person/drivers perspective who have *no* finances/money to fall back upon. No pension, no employment.
*The entire living is based on driving Uber/Lyft. Only to find the dynamics have changed with **rate cuts, negative ratings & harassment. Basing on the above a large amount of drivers cannot even rake peanuts.*_


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

Slavic Riga said:


> Honestly. This is my Opinion.
> The people who *claim* to have high profile jobs & claim to do Uber, are narcissist & greedy. Its better to be content with what one have than be greedy. "Money accumulated on greed cannot endure for long".


"Claim", you should give people benefit of doubt. Greedy for doing uber, why, because you feel we are taking away from other drivers? Reading on here, most cherry pick, and cancel the pools and whatever else you dislike. I pickup all the crumbs, I provide a service to the drunks, keep them off the roads and save a life or two. MADD should be proud of me, my greedy self, for doing this. Your comment is just silly.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

F-uber said:


> From what I saw of their behavior in Austin, both Uber and Lyft enjoy playing with house money and burning through it. They decided that their business model doesn't work under even modest regulation, however, about ten or so smaller TNCs, willing to comply with the law, immediately saw $$$$$. Uber and Lyft left millions on the table out of sheer stupidity, pride, and stubbornness.
> 
> I wouldn't invest my money in them, but I will be glad to toss your money their way.


Why do you assume their competitors are profitable in Austin?


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## Slavic Riga (Jan 12, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> "Claim", you should give people benefit of doubt. Greedy for doing uber, why, because you feel we are taking away from other drivers? Reading on here, most cherry pick, and cancel the pools and whatever else you dislike. I pickup all the crumbs, I provide a service to the drunks, keep them off the roads and save a life or two. MADD should be proud of me, my greedy self, for doing this. Your comment is just silly.


You are not the only one providing service & picking the crumbs, there are many other drivers. They were there before you & they will be there after you. As per you my comment is silly but it definitely does not have a *narcissistic* tone.


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## m1a1mg (Oct 22, 2015)

phillipzx3 said:


> My company is worth $100 billion. Don't ask me to prove it. All you need to know is that I say it's so.
> 
> Uber can't do an IPO because it's house of cards will tumble....sort of why Trump won't release his tax returns.
> 
> Does Enron ring a bell? Same game, new name


Sure, Enron rings a bell. I've used the example before myself. As of my writing of this post, Uber is still growing strong and finding new investors. Uber may well be a house of cards, but they are currently, and for the foreseeable future, the top game in town. By a long shot.

Most replies on this board are from disgruntled, whiny drivers who should go do something else.

Which leads me to.......



Slavic Riga said:


> _Assuming, the home that you live in is paid for & you also get a pension. The same with the military retirees. Having a pension is like financial stability. It helps to know that there will be a constant cash flow to sustain or maintain a livelihood. The income/money is guaranteed whether the person/s are employed or have a job.
> 
> Now lets look at the same, from another person/drivers perspective who have *no* finances/money to fall back upon. No pension, no employment.
> *The entire living is based on driving Uber/Lyft. Only to find the dynamics have changed with **rate cuts, negative ratings & harassment. Basing on the above a large amount of drivers cannot even rake peanuts.*_


If Uber is this hell that you say, why are you, or any unhappy drivers, still involved with them? I did 20+ years in the Army. I did so to guarantee my future. If Uber is so horrible, find something else to do. I'm in college now to provide myself more for the future.

From my perspective, driver's are unhappy that Uber cut rates. But it is a model they have repeated in every market they are in. Why does it come as a surprise to so many. From the majority of whiny, *****y Uber drivers I have interacted with, most young ones don't have anything else to fall back on. They made bad life choices, don't want to flip burgers or work a Wally World, and are, in general, typical of so many millennials. Uber, except in a few rare instances, should not be a full time job. It's great for people like me.

Go to school, college or tech, and acquire yourself a skill that is not so easily replicated as the skills that come with being an Uber driver.


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## F-uber (Aug 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Why do you assume their competitors are profitable in Austin?


Good point. They might not be profitable. I still think it speaks volumes, however, that the brightest minds at Uber and Lyft don't believe their model works if they are regulated. Also, the new companies are replacements rather than competitors at least for the time being.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

F-uber said:


> Good point. They might not be profitable. I still think it speaks volumes, however, that the brightest minds at Uber and Lyft don't believe their model works if they are regulated. Also, the new companies are replacements rather than competitors at least for the time being.


Regulation is not the problem, it is all the fees associated with it. If regulation wants to include fees, how about waiving all fees year one for all drivers, anybody still driving after one year would be subject to fees going forward.


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## Ms.Doe (Apr 15, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> I can't believe you can say with a straight face that uber does not care. They do, and by the way, you think your kids are safe because you submit to local police for background check as field trip driver? A friend that works for my local PD has to approve checks with DUIs to allow them to drive as the school set request for only sex offenders. So she drives all field trips. Anyhow, off topic, just that background checks are not perfect, and depending on how deep it goes who knows what they find on anyone, including me.


Are you serious?!


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> And look at the failures of Trump Inc. and yet he is a Billionare.


He's a "Billionaire" because he says he's a Billionaire. Let's see the tax returns.


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## thelittleguyhelper (Aug 6, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> Dreaded 1099, what the hell? 1099 is one of the greatest opportunities for people to go and be their own boss. More and more I read on here, it is the drivers here that are screwing up uber, not uber screwing us. Hate uber, freaking delete the app and go on with your life, stop *****ing and trolling around here.


You've got paid trolls--both by taxi companies and by certain political persuasions, the mentally ******ed/sick, and then you have the purely stoopid: stoopid like "OMG I agreed to do this and control everything about what I do or don't do and I'm being screwed, they owe me!!!"

I had the following conversation with drivers, as an Uber CSR, perhaps a couple of thousand times:

Driver: Uber, you're screwing us drivers!

Me: If you don't freakin' like it, do something else--nobody is forcing you. Transportation business IS difficult AND Uber is EASIER than the historical options.

Driver: But I need the money!

Me: But you don't like it.

Driver: BUT I NEED THE MONEY!

Me: That's understandable. So what am I supposed to do for you?

Driver: PAY ME MORE!

Me: Uber pays you according to current rate as specified in your contract.

Driver: BUT I DON'T LIKE THAT.

Me: Then you could, you know, not accept the contract, and stop driving.

Driver: YOU'RE NOT LISTENING.

Me: No, you just don't like what I'm saying. Either agree or don't agree, do or don't do. Hell, by enough people not agreeing and not doing you could, potentially, actually see a change. You're in control, not me.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

When I do not like what Uber pays me on UberX, I drive Uber Taxi.


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## Flarpy (Apr 17, 2016)

thelittleguyhelper said:


> Me: Uber pays you according to current rate as specified in your contract.
> 
> Driver: BUT I DON'T LIKE THAT.
> 
> Me: Then you could, you know, not accept the contract, and stop driving.


Of course one of the main tenets of being an independent contractor is the ability to set one's own rates. I work as an attorney for my real job. I can (try to) charge clients anything I want. Of course, clients are free to find another attorney if they don't like my rates, but there's no app or indeed anyone telling me what I can and can't charge. I put ads on Google Adsense. Google doesn't tell me what I can and can't charge. I'm truly an independent contractor.

Once Uber/Lyft begins using its network to interfere with independent contractors contracting with clients (riders), it becomes questionable whether drivers are indeed independent contractors.

EBay and Craiglist are true network providers. They do not interfere with the contracting between buyer and seller. Sellers can charge whatever they want, and the item will sell or not. Imagine if eBay or Craigslist dictated the amounts sellers could charge when they list items on their site. Those sites would no longer be just "network providers."


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## thelittleguyhelper (Aug 6, 2016)

Flarpy said:


> Of course one of the main tenets of being an independent contractor is the ability to set one's own rates. I work as an attorney for my real job. I can (try to) charge clients anything I want. Of course, clients are free to find another attorney if they don't like my rates, but there's no app or indeed anyone telling me what I can and can't charge. I put ads on Google Adsense. Google doesn't tell me what I can and can't charge. I'm truly an independent contractor.
> 
> Once Uber/Lyft begins using its network to interfere with independent contractors contracting with clients (riders), it becomes questionable whether drivers are indeed independent contractors.
> 
> EBay and Craiglist are true network providers. They do not interfere with the contracting between buyer and seller. Sellers can charge whatever they want, and the item will sell or not. Imagine if eBay or Craigslist dictated the amounts sellers could charge when they list items on their site. Those sites would no longer be just "network providers."


Hear that. But it's not a clear deal: "employment" is a legal fiction, employees are really just selling their labor at agreed rates. It's always spun otherwise for political, not substantial purposes.

Which is the rub. It creates a false expectation in people with what nowadays is referred to (sometimes as an insult, fairly when just description of certain traits) as "employment mentality." That sense of entitlement to be "cared for" by someone...who is really just trying to trade money for some skill or labor, not buying a one-sided family dynamic.

Uber & Lyft throw a wrench into the political fiction, but they're not the only ones: go to Amazon and you'll find that there are TONS of offers and...Amazon sets all shipping and handling rates. Why is that? To (a) prevent abuse and (b) create standard expectations to smooth transactions. Ebay actually does the same, just with payment systems. Why? Same.

There was a marketplace/platform like Uber & Lyft that allowed you to set your own rates. Drivers LOVED it and...customers avoided it like the plague. Can you remember its name? I can't. The problem was simple: drivers, of course, went about talking about how "my time is valuable!!!" and customers, unsurprisingly, went "so is my buck--I'm taking the cheaper options."

Which is why, in business, there is that saying about knowing where your butter is breaded, and acting accordingly (in various forms, "customer is always right", "customer-centric", "customer service philosophy"...).


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## Flarpy (Apr 17, 2016)

thelittleguyhelper said:


> Which is why, in business, there is that saying about knowing where your butter is breaded, and acting accordingly (in various forms, "customer is always right", "customer-centric", "customer service philosophy"...).


Even if so, technically drivers are Uber's customers. If Uber merely provides a network for drivers to solicit fares from riders, then the drivers are the customers.

In fact, I believe Uber has said as much itself.


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## Uber2.0 (Jun 7, 2016)

Another Uber Driver said:


> Uber, the huge taxi service, is undoubtedly still reeling from its defeat in China. After investing $2 billion to get a foothold in the Chinese market, Uber sold out to its competitor, Didi Chuxing, and agreed to be a junior partner in China.
> 
> While this is a dramatic story that made headlines across the country, a less covered story could have far more impact on Uber's future. This is the story of Uber's departure from Austin, Texas.
> 
> ...


Perhaps if Uber stopped screwing its partner drivers with poor fares, and UberPoop, they would have a massive pool of drivers who would support them in their fight to be successful. Unfortunately the drivers are little more than cattle to Uber Corp. Uber Corp has done nothing to help itself by continuing to hurt its drivers.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

stuber said:


> He's a "Billionaire" because he says he's a Billionaire. Let's see the tax returns.


That's a non intelligent statement.
His known assets are worth billions.


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## thelittleguyhelper (Aug 6, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> That's a non intelligent statement.
> His known assets are worth billions.


It's not just an unintelligent statement but a sign you're being duped: the people who concocted that propaganda are well-paid rhetoricians who know what the average slub on the street does not--millionaires and billionaires have token tax-returns, they are poor on paper.

The reason for their rhetoric is also easy to see: they want a release to show little to nothing and squeal "see, he's a liar and worth nothing, the millions for campaign + 747 that's privately chartered are just magic somehow!!!"

But the reason for tha wouldn't even be hard to understand with just a few days of business class, even for ordinary Joe, and has nothing to do with trickery--they plough money into investments, here is why:

(1) Inflation means those without money cannot save--keep a store of value, or grow their money. Well-off people are...not keen on letting inflation ("the hidden tax") destroy their fortunes, so they do all they can to get them back into markets and generate somehow.

(2) Income is taxed, investments are not. This makes sense: if you tax investments you ****** economic growth at the very source: in economic terms it's like cutting-down the tree at the roots, when it's just a sapling, because "DAMN IT, RICH PEOPLE F888ING DESERVE IT!!!" It's stupid.

So stupid that the countries that have done it, e.g. taxing things like trades have...destroyed those markets. One of the Nordic countries did this and basically STILL has no market--nothing significant compared to what came before anyway. We don't want to discourage investment (especially by little folks who actually try, to which such taxation is most regressive, because the odds are you're going to lose, very few actually succeed).

And thus, most of these big-cheeses are...constantly ploughing money into wherever the tax code allows transfers to occur without taxation. It's an endles cycle of re-investment...good in theory, but also imbalanced because it's unavailable to you and I...because we no longer have a real banking system. Nowadays people who talk about this crap are called loons, but not all that long ago it was common in ordinary, street-level discourage, and even a major matter discussed in the labor movement. (I'm a history nerd btw.)

And I hate this s&^t: as cool and rational and meany-meany as I may sound, I pay attention to boring garbage like this because I hate how it's used to dupe people who don't spend years of their life learning so they can't be. Political scumbags know people can't be bothered and LOVE to take advantage.


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## thelittleguyhelper (Aug 6, 2016)

Uber2.0 said:


> Perhaps if Uber stopped screwing its partner drivers with poor fares, and UberPoop, they would have a massive pool of drivers who would support them in their fight to be successful. Unfortunately the drivers are little more than cattle to Uber Corp. Uber Corp has done nothing to help itself by continuing to hurt its drivers.


You fail. I also commiserate though...

But you do fail: You're not their driver. You're someone who signed a contract to sell services over their platform.

Many people lose money on Amazon and Ebay too, trying to sell: most, in fact, do and stop.

This is why actual businessfolk do stuff like maths and careful data collection to figure-out what does and doesn't work to eek-out slightly-higher then slightly-higher margins as much as possible, no matter circumstances.

Most non-religious corporations, in fact, treat all but their most-highly-market-valued staff like cattle, AND everyone they work with who isn't an ultimate source of income: when in business, it's your job to demand more or better, or to move-on.

And if you thought that through and actually DID move-on rather than thinking of yourself as a corporate slave ("I am their driver"), and multiply that across a good chunk of people, you might get somewhere. Hint hint.


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## thelittleguyhelper (Aug 6, 2016)

Flarpy said:


> Even if so, technically drivers are Uber's customers. If Uber merely provides a network for drivers to solicit fares from riders, then the drivers are the customers.
> 
> In fact, I believe Uber has said as much itself.


Agreed...I may actually be the source of reminding drivers that they are Uber's customers. I actually may have meant it as a subtle, policy-allowable hint that "customers not treated all that well, tend to choose other providers and options for their needs until the company which serves them shapes-up."

Hint hint.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

thelittleguyhelper said:


> You fail. I also commiserate though...
> 
> But you do fail: You're not their driver. You're someone who signed a contract to sell services over their platform.
> 
> ...


You are far to smart for this Neanderthal forum.
The vast majority of members here are TKs Useful Idiots.
They couldn't run a business metric with a gun to their heads...


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

Uber2.0 said:


> Perhaps if Uber stopped screwing its partner drivers with poor fares, and UberPoop, they would have a massive pool of drivers who would support them in their fight to be successful. Unfortunately the drivers are little more than cattle to Uber Corp. Uber Corp has done nothing to help itself by continuing to hurt its drivers.


If you don't like the fares or the Uber Pool being offered, you don't have to accept it.

Uberx has only been around for only , what 4 years since 2012? Less than that in many locations.

If you are committed to providing livery services in your personal car, you need to realize the situation is pretty much fluid right now, and Uber may or may not be around in a few years, but even if it is, it will be changed, the fares will be changed, the conditions will be changed sooner rather than later.


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## m1a1mg (Oct 22, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> That's a non intelligent statement.
> His known assets are worth billions.


It doesn't mean they are leveraged to the top.


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## Blahgard (Aug 16, 2016)

Considering Uber's business practices, it wouldn't shock me if they started to experience some more serious setbacks. Generally speaking, cheaters don't prosper, at least in business.


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## thelittleguyhelper (Aug 6, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> You are far to smart for this Neanderthal forum.
> The vast majority of members here are TKs Useful Idiots.
> They couldn't run a business metric with a gun to their heads...


Right, and I care about that. I care about them even when they are entitled and stuck-up brats who don't know their hole from one in the ground.

I care because their future is...also the future of any kids or neighbors that my kids will have. They just don't "get it" because they haven't had it beaten-in.

It isn't the smartest people who I've seen succeed: it's people like them who go to work with other contractors and literally get it beaten-in. It sounds nuts, but in most of the cases like that it's someone who pops-off with attitude and finally loses it, then learns that "evil greedy old fat man" is built-up into solid-rock like muscle from 30-40 years of work since they were 9 years-old, at 120 hours per week for most of their life.

Real work, is hard. Real production, is b-all-breaking hard. Doing all of it in an adversarial, predatory entitlement- and legal- system with regulations that would make the eyes of every Soviet Leader bulge with envy at how perfectly controlling government and officials are (or can be when they want to--look up "soft totalitarianism") makes it even harder.

So I do a verbal equivalent of soft-face-slaps to let people take a little offense because others aren't willing...and surround those facts with realistic materials that might sink-in a little, but only with the slaps: because without them, they're asleep. I've gotten to go overseas seriously a few times and sadly enough, Americans are the equivalent of drunk, sleeping clowns who believe they're something in the eyes of normal people across the planet, when you talk with them, with the exception of...serious business people.


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## thelittleguyhelper (Aug 6, 2016)

thelittleguyhelper said:


> Right, and I care about that. I care about them even when they are entitled and stuck-up brats who don't know their hole from one in the ground.


I care because their future is...also the future of any kids or neighbors that my kids will have. They just don't "get it" because they haven't had it beaten-in.

It isn't the smartest people who I've seen succeed: it's people like them who go to work with other contractors and literally get it beaten-in. It sounds nuts, but in most of the cases like that it's someone who pops-off with attitude and finally loses it, then learns that "evil greedy old fat man" is built-up into solid-rock like muscle from 30-40 years of work since they were 9 years-old, at 120 hours per week for most of their life.

Real work, is hard. Real production, is b-all-breaking hard. Doing all of it in an adversarial, predatory entitlement- and legal- system with regulations that would make the eyes of every Soviet Leader bulge with envy at how perfectly controlling government and officials are (or can be when they want to--look up "soft totalitarianism") makes it even harder.

So I do a verbal equivalent of soft-face-slaps to let people take a little offense because others aren't willing...and surround those facts with realistic materials that might sink-in a little, but only with the slaps: because without them, they're asleep. I've gotten to go overseas seriously a few times and sadly enough, Americans are the equivalent of drunk, sleeping clowns who believe they're something in the eyes of normal people across the planet, when you talk with them, with the exception of...serious business people.

Back when I was a full-time Driver Support guy and Uber employee I actually helped normal folks who complained like this to really turn things around, when they finally did listen. I was edgy in replying too: "I know you're a customer and you're pissed, I'm sorry for that--my job is to care so I won't talk to you like a screamy moron in WalMart but directly and with respect: you're being an idiot. Here are the problems you have, from what I can see, and what I've seen that help with those."

It wasn't cookie-cutter (and probably why I wasn't renewed, lol) but it actually helped. I'll continue doing that so people who want it can get it.

But the fundamental issue for most people is simply attitude: they are, in business terms, the equivalent of a know-nothing, experience-less, stupid teenage mouthing-off at their far-smarter parents. Same with American politics (whole other animal and why both major parties and their supports, and the niche parties that appeal to psychos, aren't worth ****).

So you verbal-slap those with the wrong attitude to try to wake them up.

Only when you stop getting emotional and angry--even though your emotions do matter and I do care about people's emotions--can you stop and take control of your thoughts, actions, and destiny. But that takes a lot of time and, with the typical modern person, a LOT of urging (and constant failure and finally "my god, people I keep ignoring keep saying this would happen and...").


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## Bolympia (Jan 8, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> The beginning of the story almost doesn't make sense. It talks about about fingerprinting and background checks that taxi companies have been performing for decades and how Uber thinks that will help classify their partners as employees. I don't know of one taxi driver/operator that is an employee. And most taxi drivers are driving a company vehicle. If you compare a taxi driver to an Uber driver it seems the taxi driver is much more of an employee then an Uber driver.


No. Taxi Drivers rent the vehicle from the cab company, however the rules that the taxi driver must abide by are set by the municipality. The taxi company has rules concerning the actual taxi (like how much it cost to rent the taxi, how long the driver can rent the taxi, what to do in an accident, what condition the taxi must be in when the driver returns it to the company, ect), but the business of taxi driving is regulated by the city (how much the driver can charge, where the driver can and cannot pick up, driver conduct, ect).

In fact, one of the biggest mistakes people make when they complain about their taxi driver, is that they call the taxi company(who has limited leverage over driver conduct) and not the municipal body that oversees the taxi industry (who does have leverage over driver conduct).

Uber on the other hand, has complete control over every aspect of its drivers "business" while driving on the platform, including prices, conduct, pings, even actual employment (deactivation). Making them more likely to be employees.


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## thelittleguyhelper (Aug 6, 2016)

Bolympia said:


> No. Taxi Drivers rent the vehicle from the cab company, however the rules that the taxi driver must abide by are set by the municipality. The taxi company has rules concerning the actual taxi (like how much it cost to rent the taxi, how long the driver can rent the taxi, what to do in an accident, what condition the taxi must be in when the driver returns it to the company, ect), but the business of taxi driving is regulated by the city (how much the driver can charge, where the driver can and cannot pick up, driver conduct, ect).
> 
> In fact, one of the biggest mistakes people make when they complain about their taxi driver, is that they call the taxi company(who has limited leverage over driver conduct) and not the municipal body that oversees the taxi industry (who does have leverage over driver conduct).
> 
> Uber on the other hand, has complete control over every aspect of its drivers "business" while driving on the platform, including prices, conduct, pings, even actual employment (deactivation). Making them more likely to be employees.


All a show and just diverts from the fact that the head of the taxi companies or "not us but we know them" "industry insiders and experts" tend to...run the taxi commissions, directly advise the taxi commisions, or provide the legislation and regulation they want only to be rubber-stamped by beaurocrates chosen for compliance.

It's a great and wonderful example of how to obfuscate and hide evil within institutional constructs with an apparent face meant for other purposes. The FTC was furious about it for decades and kept issuing reports demanding action (such as Federal racketeering prosecutions) given the fact that it's durn obvious when the taxi companies "territories" are divvied-up in the same way as a set of drug cartels which come to an agreement not to compete...by the "regulators."


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Bolympia said:


> No. Taxi Drivers rent the vehicle from the cab company, however the rules that the taxi driver must abide by are set by the municipality. The taxi company has rules concerning the actual taxi (like how much it cost to rent the taxi, how long the driver can rent the taxi, what to do in an accident, what condition the taxi must be in when the driver returns it to the company, ect), but the business of taxi driving is regulated by the city (how much the driver can charge, where the driver can and cannot pick up, driver conduct, ect).
> 
> In fact, one of the biggest mistakes people make when they complain about their taxi driver, is that they call the taxi company(who has limited leverage over driver conduct) and not the municipal body that oversees the taxi industry (who does have leverage over driver conduct).
> 
> Uber on the other hand, has complete control over every aspect of its drivers "business" while driving on the platform, including prices, conduct, pings, even actual employment (deactivation). Making them more likely to be employees.


I own my taxi.
That being said, stop making assumptions about an industry you thought you had researched.
Finish the research, then I will continue to edify you.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Taxi protectionism exists based on a tried and true set of metrics;
Please try and follow along...
These metrics are per day unless otherwise noted:
$18- dispatch company (radio) fee
$10- vehicle REPLACEMENT
$10- vehicle repair
$5-. Vehicle insurance
$30- gas
6℅-. Credit card processing
6℅ to 12℅- voucher fee

These numbers are not arbitrary.
They insure a profit for up to three separate parties-
Driver
Owner
Dispatch.
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
What Uber and Lyft have done is subsidized low fares in order to break the taxi industry wholly and completely.
Especially the Southern markets.
$0.75 per mile is a generic meter rate last seen on taxi meters in 1972 in North America.
It is certainly not sustainable for owner operators.
Uber is using the poor Useful Idiots to break a system which was actually sustainable for profit for 3 distinct groups and insured the public of a relatively safe ride.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Now, to be fair, let's examine Ubers model.
Scam owner operators into believing they are NOT taxi owner ops, tell them they are creating a brave new world when in reality the Uber owner op is killing their car at 1972 meter rates.
Subsidize the pax with super cheap fares and get them strung out on Uber Heroin.
Rinse and repeat when the owner op inevitably falls by the wayside with a broken car which he can't afford to fix based on a 1972 revenue stream in real world 2016 parts and labor prices.


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## thelittleguyhelper (Aug 6, 2016)

Preface: I don't mean ANY of this to disparage, attack, rebuke, or call you stupid or anything like that--it's just food for thought, hopefullly that you can use:



TwoFiddyMile said:


> Now, to be fair, let's examine Ubers model.
> Scam owner operators into believing they are NOT taxi owner ops,


The reason they say they are not Taxis is "Taxi" is an artifice of legal construct, and what that means then depends on actual language codified in law.

Example: If the IRS taxes "Oranges" and I grow apples, then sues me for taxes on Apples, the reason they cannot tax me--even though Apples and Oranges grow on similar trees, are similarly round and popular, and substitute alright for one another if you aren't looking too carefully, is because Apples don't have the metaphysics of Oranges. When you fabricate metaphysics for legal purposes it's even worse--and easier to sidestep legal dictates.

Law that has a purpose in mind or end is enslaving, and also historically invalid in the United States: you cannot mandate ends in a free country, because it would take too many objective laws to force and invalidate all liberties. You can only legislate on specific issues. And if you think otherwise or keep passing laws...well the truly clever will run with it, make money off of it (if you don't believe me I'm reading a book right now on "spinning laws into gold" by just those sort of people), and then destroy all the competition anyway.

In this case: the taxi companies acted like drug cartels, running their regulatory commissions and divvying-up territories to ensure themselves profit rather than compete...and by imposing the restrictions they did they also hamstrung themselves. Uber didn't just find how to get around all of it: they also won handily in every court case regarding the "we're not Oranges" matter. The result is they're effectively unchallenges even though the Taxi industry is historically massive and controls the regulations it's supposedly overseen by.



TwoFiddyMile said:


> tell them they are creating a brave new world when in reality the Uber owner op is killing their car at 1972 meter rates.


The point is their concern isn't "all players win" (mean as it is). Their end-game is to revolutionize a global-scale transportation system which is unbelievably efficient such that everyone uses it, and even if all they can do is make $0.00000000001 per ride given, they are still handsomely rewarded.

That is what mechanization did for farming: it put 99.99999999999999% of farmers out of business, into factories working alongside (and often for) their former "wage slaves." Food had never been cheaper for even the poorest of poor...or more profitable. Food has [still] never been cheaper for even the poorest of poor...or more profitable. And that's despite New-Deal era commissions and coop controllers like Taxicab industries have where they forcibly block sales of certain foods (fruits especially) and then burn them.

If I were these companies, for certain mathematical reasons, I would form a fund, and then invest Uber: maybe secure some agreement to allow the taxicab operators to contribute a portion of their own cut of profits while they can continue to the cab-company-run-fund and in turn take any of the legal responsibility for complying with securities regs. This would be more than fair (for those mathematical reasons).


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## Bolympia (Jan 8, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> I own my taxi.
> That being said, stop making assumptions about an industry you thought you had researched.
> Finish the research, then I will continue to edify you.





TwoFiddyMile said:


> I own my taxi.
> That being said, stop making assumptions about an industry you thought you had researched.
> Finish the research, then I will continue to edify you.


That's funny....because I've been driving taxi in San Francisco for 8 years. You know, San Francisco.......the place where Uber and Lyft started and are headquartered? The place where the big employee versus independent contractor class action suit is being played out? I've also spent time driving taxi in Los Angeles. Both markets are quite large for both taxi and rideshare, particularly San Francisco since it is a very dense city with limited parking and car ownership can be cost prohibitive.

How much more research should I do?

Now edify.


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Now, to be fair, let's examine Ubers model.
> Scam owner operators into believing they are NOT taxi owner ops, tell them they are creating a brave new world when in reality the Uber owner op is killing their car at 1972 meter rates.


They convinced enough people that there is nothing to driving people around, and much of the expense in wear and tear on their cars is invisible until you try and trade in the car. Since Uber has been around for such a short time, most of the partners haven't had to replace their cars yet.

The really amazing thing is how Uber has convinced such a multitude (their news release last week said they have a million drivers) that there is nothing to it and a buck a mile or less is good money.


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## Bolympia (Jan 8, 2015)

thelittleguyhelper said:


> All a show and just diverts from the fact that the head of the taxi companies or "not us but we know them" "industry insiders and experts" tend to...run the taxi commissions, directly advise the taxi commisions, or provide the legislation and regulation they want only to be rubber-stamped by beaurocrates chosen for compliance.
> 
> It's a great and wonderful example of how to obfuscate and hide evil within institutional constructs with an apparent face meant for other purposes. The FTC was furious about it for decades and kept issuing reports demanding action (such as Federal racketeering prosecutions) given the fact that it's durn obvious when the taxi companies "territories" are divvied-up in the same way as a set of drug cartels which come to an agreement not to compete...by the "regulators."


No Troll. I can tell that you are a paid troll, not only because you trot out the taxi cartel line, but also because of the tone and grammar of your post.

Look idiot, there is no taxi cartel because the taxi industry was never particularly lucrative and really still isn't. Even after it pushes the majority of its operating costs onto its drivers, Uber isn't turning a profit.

Before Uber, who the hell wanted to start a taxi company?

A full time taxi driver in a lucrative market will make 40-50k a year tops unless he or she becomes an owner/operator in which case the income will go up to about 70k a year, but that is where your income will top out, and very few taxi drivers actually become owner operators.

Uber invented an app that revolutionized the way a vehicle could be dispatched to your location. However, the profitability of that app is directly correlated to the proliferation of cell phones among the average consumer, and specifically the proliferation of smart phones.

What I'm trying to tell you is that before 2013, the service that Uber provides simply wasn't available to most Americans. Thus, the argument that the "taxi cartel" has spent the past 100 years marginalizing "innovative competitors" just doesn't add up.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Well, this is going well.


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