# If I didn't keep a mileage log...



## Unkar's Muffins (Mar 9, 2017)

I did a weekly "short term" lease for a car to do Lyft for every week of 2017.

I did not keep any mileage log!

But honestly, I drove very little personal miles compared to Lyft miles. I estimated my daily use, and on average, it was probably less than 20% personal use. But to keep things straight forward, I just assume 20% personal use miles.

If I didn't keep a mileage log, what are issues I can, or will, run into, when I submit my taxes?

Is it just a matter of "Hopefully the IRS does not audit you"?

If they did audit me, how would they determine my personal use percentage on this short term leased vehicle?


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

IRS rules are clear: must keep detailed mileage logs to claim the mileage deduction.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Unkar's Muffins said:


> I did a weekly "short term" lease for a car to do Lyft for every week of 2017.
> 
> I did not keep any mileage log!
> 
> ...


Go fill out your mileage log !


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## Unkar's Muffins (Mar 9, 2017)

Uber's Guber said:


> IRS rules are clear: must keep detailed mileage logs to claim the mileage deduction.


 But I won't be claiming mileage deduction. But the tax forms still ask me mileage questions anyway.

I do short term leasing, so my understanding is that I deduct the business percentage of my lease. Most drivers here seem to use their own cars, so they use the mileage deduction, instead of lease deduction.


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

Uber's Guber said:


> IRS rules are clear: must keep detailed mileage logs to claim the mileage deduction.





Unkar's Muffins said:


> But I won't be claiming mileage deduction. But the tax forms still ask me mileage questions anyway. I do short term leasing, so my understanding is that I deduct the business percentage of my lease. Most drivers here seem to use their own cars, so they use the mileage deduction, instead of lease deduction.


Let me rephrase: IRS rules are clear: must keep detailed mileage logs, period.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Unkar's Muffins said:


> But I won't be claiming mileage deduction. But the tax forms still ask me mileage questions anyway.
> 
> I do short term leasing, so my understanding is that I deduct the business percentage of my lease. Most drivers here seem to use their own cars, so they use the mileage deduction, instead of lease deduction.


The way I understand it, when leasing a car you can deduct either the lease payments or the mileage, (IRS Pub 463) both of course by applying the percentage of business use, in your case estimated at 80%. The reason I believe the IRS requires the mileage log ( and your tax program is asking for the odometer readings ) is to establish that percentage. If you're deducting the lease payments you can deduct other expenses like maintenance services you pay for, car washes, etc. This is the "actual expenses" method as opposed to using the SRM. Have you figured it both ways? It depends on the cost of the lease of course.
With regard to getting audited and not having a mileage log, you would just have to convince the auditor of the accuracy of your estimated business use. Maybe you could get a rough idea by keeping a log now to get a picture of what an average day/week/month looks like. Good luck.

Disclosure: I'm not a tax professional.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Unkar's Muffins said:


> I did a weekly "short term" lease for a car to do Lyft for every week of 2017.
> 
> I did not keep any mileage log!
> 
> ...


"If they did audit me, how would they determine my personal use percentage on this short term leased vehicle?" They would ask to see your mileage log. Burden of proof is on you at this point.


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## Scott Kasunic (Apr 16, 2018)

tohunt4me said:


> Go fill out your mileage log !


What's the best way to track your miles?


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

You still need to keep a log for short term leases to determine your % of personal use.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Scott Kasunic said:


> What's the best way to track your miles?


I use a DayMinder weekly calendar. Write down the starting and ending odometer readings for each shift you drive and subtract to get your daily total. If you have a trip minder you can reset it to make the math easy, but you need the readings off the permanent odometer. Individual trips/clients are not necessary, since is all rideshare.I keep a running YTD total so at the end of the year I just plug in the final number to TurboTax.
Some people use mileage apps, but I started doing this in 2002 before those were available, so I have the contemporaneous written logs as required by the IRS in case of an audit going back to prior years.


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## Scott Kasunic (Apr 16, 2018)

So if I just write down dates and miles started and miles finished, will that suffice? Or do I need some type of actual log sheets? I downloaded milesIQ but I’ve read that that doesn’t necessarily work right.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Scott Kasunic said:


> So if I just write down dates and miles started and miles finished, will that suffice? Or do I need some type of actual log sheets? I downloaded milesIQ but I've read that that doesn't necessarily work right.


"Contemporaneous" suggests to me that the IRS wants you to keep the records as you go- date, actual odometer readings and the purpose of the business use. IDK how or what info milesIQ gives you or the format in which it is delivered.

In my DayMinder I list the odometer readings, trip mileage, client name and any other expenses. I also list hours worked as I bill my clients from these calendars as well as keep them, along with copies of the invoices produced from them. It may prove to be overkill, but in the unlikely event of an audit, I want to be able to support what I claim on my tax returns.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> "If they did audit me, how would they determine my personal use percentage on this short term leased vehicle?" They would ask to see your mileage log. Burden of proof is on you at this point.


I own 5 cars.


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## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

Unkar's Muffins said:


> I did a weekly "short term" lease for a car to do Lyft for every week of 2017.
> 
> I did not keep any mileage log!
> 
> ...


It's better to have it and not need it than......you know the rest. If Uncle Sam does decide to audit you one morning, you'll be on the hook trying to explain why and how you claimed such deductions without an accurate log per their regulations.

DON'T MESS WITH THE IRS.

Grab a pen and paper and get to work.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

tohunt4me said:


> I own 5 cars.


One of the questions on tax returns is "do you have another vehicle"


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## JDWhit_ (Jul 2, 2017)

Uber's Guber said:


> IRS rules are clear: must keep detailed mileage logs to claim the mileage deduction.


If you lease or rent a car then the mileage is not deductible but the money you pay for the leased vehicle is......


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

JDWhit_ said:


> If you lease or rent a car then the mileage is not deductible but the money you pay for the leased vehicle is......


You can choose either method on a leased vehicle, but you have to stick with that method for the term of the lease. Source- IRS Pub 463.


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## Uberdriver2710 (Jul 15, 2015)

Just give them all your money and hope the give you some back.

That should do it!


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## JDWhit_ (Jul 2, 2017)

Older Chauffeur said:


> You can choose either method on a leased vehicle, but you have to stick with that method for the term of the lease. Source- IRS Pub 463.


How can you deduct mileage on a vehicle that you do not own?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

JDWhit_ said:


> How can you deduct mileage on a vehicle that you do not own?


If it's your spouses no problem. If someone else's you'd need to lease the car from them with a real verifiable lease.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

JDWhit_ said:


> How can you deduct mileage on a vehicle that you do not own?


How? By following the IRS instructions.
From the referenced IRS Pub463:
Choosing the standard mileage rate. If you want to use the standard mileage rate for a car you own, you must choose to use it in the first year the car is available for use in your busi- ness. Then, in later years, you can choose to use either the standard mileage rate or actual expenses.

If you want to use the standard mileage rate for a car you lease, you must use it for the entire lease period.


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## JDWhit_ (Jul 2, 2017)

Older Chauffeur said:


> How? By following the IRS instructions.
> From the referenced IRS Pub463:
> Choosing the standard mileage rate. If you want to use the standard mileage rate for a car you own, you must choose to use it in the first year the car is available for use in your busi- ness. Then, in later years, you can choose to use either the standard mileage rate or actual expenses.
> 
> If you want to use the standard mileage rate for a car you lease, you must use it for the entire lease period.


That's very strange to allow someone to write of mileage on a vehicle you do not own. I unde


UberTaxPro said:


> If it's your spouses no problem. If someone else's you'd need to lease the car from them with a real verifiable lease.


You completely missed the point. If I rent a car from Uber or Lyft through their rental program, how can you write off the mileage? That makes no sense because its not your vehicle AND they allowed unlimited miles.



Older Chauffeur said:


> How? By following the IRS instructions.
> From the referenced IRS Pub463:
> Choosing the standard mileage rate. If you want to use the standard mileage rate for a car you own, you must choose to use it in the first year the car is available for use in your busi- ness. Then, in later years, you can choose to use either the standard mileage rate or actual expenses.
> 
> If you want to use the standard mileage rate for a car you lease, you must use it for the entire lease period.


If I rent a car from Uber or Lyft through their rental program, how can you write off the mileage? That makes no sense because its not your vehicle AND they allowed unlimited miles. Yes, I would understand that IF it were a real lease and you paid for mileage.


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## KD_LA (Aug 16, 2017)

Older Chauffeur said:


> Disclosure: I'm not a tax professional.


The words "tax" and "professional" do not belong in the same paragraph, let alone in the same sentence!!!


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Unkar's Muffins said:


> But I won't be claiming mileage deduction. But the tax forms still ask me mileage questions anyway.
> 
> I do short term leasing, so my understanding is that I deduct the business percentage of my lease. Most drivers here seem to use their own cars, so they use the mileage deduction, instead of lease deduction.


You DETERMINE the business percentage by MILEAGE!
SO...See Uber's Guber previous replies.



Older Chauffeur said:


> I use a DayMinder weekly calendar. Write down the starting and ending odometer readings for each shift you drive and subtract to get your daily total. If you have a trip minder you can reset it to make the math easy, but you need the readings off the permanent odometer. Individual trips/clients are not necessary, since is all rideshare.I keep a running YTD total so at the end of the year I just plug in the final number to TurboTax.
> Some people use mileage apps, but I started doing this in 2002 before those were available, so I have the contemporaneous written logs as required by the IRS in case of an audit going back to prior years.


I have kept them on paper since 1991 when I started delivering newspapers, collecting newspaper bills and doing hotshot delivery.

I did eventually decide the returns over 20 years old could be tossed..lol


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

JDWhit_ said:


> If you lease or rent a car then the mileage is not deductible but the money you pay for the leased vehicle is......


Only the percentage used for businesss


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

tohunt4me said:


> I own 5 cars.


I own 3. What's your point?


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

JDWhit_ said:


> How can you deduct mileage on a vehicle that you do not own?


No


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## JDWhit_ (Jul 2, 2017)

Unkar's Muffins said:


> I did a weekly "short term" lease for a car to do Lyft for every week of 2017.
> 
> I did not keep any mileage log!
> 
> ...


Perhaps, just write off the actual rental payments and forget the mileage log. The lease fee is deductible.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

JDWhit_ said:


> That's very strange to allow someone to write of mileage on a vehicle you do not own. I unde
> 
> If I rent a car from Uber or Lyft through their rental program, how can you write off the mileage? That makes no sense because its not your vehicle AND they allowed unlimited miles. Yes, I would understand that IF it were a real lease and you paid for mileage.


You don't think someone leasing a car through Uber/Lyft is paying for the mileage? The lease payments are determined by the anticipated residual value, which is greatly impacted by high mileage. That's why the lease payments are three or four times those for the same vehicle leased for normal personal use. It's still a lease, just with different terms, and the IRS apparently treats it as such.
Why do you insist that lease payments are deductible (under actual expenses) but not mileage using the SMR on a leased car, when it is quite clear under IRS regulations that you are given the choice, as long as you stick to the method chosen for the entire lease?



JDWhit_ said:


> Perhaps, just write off the actual rental payments and forget the mileage log. The lease fee is deductible.


You still need a log to show the percentage of business vs personal use, in order to support your claim of a deduction for the lease payments. Plus, depending on the business mileage accumulated, the SMR may give you a higher deduction. For example, say you have a lease payment of $800 per month, and use the car strictly for business. If you put 1500 miles a month on the car and use the SMR, your deduction would be $817. Additional miles, likely in rideshare, are going to tip the scales further.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Unkar's Muffins said:


> I did a weekly "short term" lease for a car to do Lyft for every week of 2017.
> 
> I did not keep any mileage log!
> 
> ...


If I didn't keep a mileage log, what are issues I can, or will, run into, when I submit my taxes? _No problem at all when you submit, big problem if you're audited...vehicle deductions could be disallowed. _
Is it just a matter of "Hopefully the IRS does not audit you"? _Not a good policy to follow but if you already submitted vehicle deductions based on mileage without a log, yes. _
If they did audit me, how would they determine my personal use percentage on this short term leased vehicle? _They wouldn't determine your personal use. They would assume it was all personal unless you have business records to prove business expenses (mileage log). When dealing with the IRS the burden of proof is 100% on you. Without records you'll loose most of the time. _


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## JDWhit_ (Jul 2, 2017)

Older Chauffeur said:


> You don't think someone leasing a car through Uber/Lyft is paying for the mileage? The lease payments are determined by the anticipated residual value, which is greatly impacted by high mileage. That's why the lease payments are three or four times those for the same vehicle leased for normal personal use. It's still a lease, just with different terms, and the IRS apparently treats it as such.
> Why do you insist that lease payments are deductible (under actual expenses) but not mileage using the SMR on a leased car, when it is quite clear under IRS regulations that you are given the choice, as long as you stick to the method chosen for the entire lease?
> 
> You still need a log to show the percentage of business vs personal use, in order to support your claim of a deduction for the lease payments. Plus, depending on the business mileage accumulated, the SMR may give you a higher deduction. For example, say you have a lease payment of $800 per month, and use the car strictly for business. If you put 1500 miles a month on the car and use the SMR, your deduction would be $817. Additional miles, likely in rideshare, are going to tip the scales further.


The Lyft and Uber "rental program" included "unlimited miles" which means the renter is not paying for mileage in anyway. This is NOT a normal "lease" and the "renter" is not paying for milage or maintenance on the vehicle in anyway as in a normal "lease."

With the Lyft/Uber rental program there is no option to even purchase the vehicle at the end of the "lease." It is not your vehicle and it makes no sense to deduct mileage from a "rental car."

If I rent a vehicle from Hertz for business trip, can I deduct milage? That is a serious question?

I just cannot wrap my head around writing off milage on a vehicle that I do not own AND a "rental" is NOT the same as a "lease."

Even Turbo Tax states that you CANNOT write off milage on a rental car! I just don't understand why you guys cannot understand that you cannot write off milage on a car that IS NOT YOURS! LOL


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

JDWhit_ said:


> The Lyft and Uber "rental program" included "unlimited miles" which means the renter is not paying for mileage in anyway. This is NOT a normal "lease" and the "renter" is not paying for milage or maintenance on the vehicle in anyway as in a normal "lease."
> 
> With the Lyft/Uber rental program there is no option to even purchase the vehicle at the end of the "lease." It is not your vehicle and it makes no sense to deduct mileage from a "rental car."
> 
> ...


If you lease the vehicle for *30 days *or more you can use actual expenses or the standard mileage rate.
If you use the actual expense method the following quoted from *IRS pub 463* concerning "*Inclusion*" applies:
"If you lease a car, truck, or van that you use in your business for a lease term of 30 days or more, you may have to include an inclusion amount in your income for each tax year you lease the vehicle. To do this, you don't add an amount to income. Instead, you reduce your deduction for your lease payment. (This reduction has an effect similar to the limit on the depreciation deduction you would have on the vehicle if you owned it.)
The inclusion amount is a percentage of part of the fair market value of the leased vehicle multiplied by the percentage of business and investment use of the vehicle for the tax year. It is prorated for the number of days of the lease term in the tax year. "


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

JDWhit_ ,
I refer you to a couple of your posts, #16 and #19.


JDWhit_ said:


> If you lease or rent a car then the mileage is not deductible but the money you pay for the leased vehicle is......





JDWhit_ said:


> How can you deduct mileage on a vehicle that you do not own?


In my replies I have referred to the IRS published instructions pertaining to leased vehicles, which by definition are not owned by the lessee. You have used the terms "rent" and "lease" as though they are interchangeable. Finally, in your post #31, you state that the two are different. But you still use terms like "a car you don't own," which, by definition, includes a leased vehicle. As stated in the IRS publications, you have the option of deducting business mileage or actual expenses on a leased vehicle.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Uber's Guber said:


> Let me rephrase: IRS rules are clear: must keep detailed mileage logs, period.


What is detailed. I push my trip button when I get to my first ride. Get the mileage at the end when I let the last passenger out. Log it.
Is that detailed?


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

wallae said:


> What is detailed. I push my trip button when I get to my first ride. Get the mileage at the end when I let the last passenger out. Log it.
> Is that detailed?


Answered in your other thread.


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## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

Unkar's Muffins said:


> But I won't be claiming mileage deduction. But the tax forms still ask me mileage questions anyway.
> 
> I do short term leasing, so my understanding is that I deduct the business percentage of my lease. Most drivers here seem to use their own cars, so they use the mileage deduction, instead of lease deduction.


If you're doing a lease or weekly rental I believe you can deduct the rental or leasing cost and the cost for gas at the pump. The leasing company will deduct the mileage on their return since it's their car. Any tax gays on the board that can confirm this?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

REX HAVOC said:


> If you're doing a lease or weekly rental I believe you can deduct the rental or leasing cost and the cost for gas at the pump. The leasing company will deduct the mileage on their return since it's their car. Any tax gays on the board that can confirm this?


Yes you can deduct the short term rental and gas (if you pay for it). The leasing company will most likely have to use actual expenses also because they most likely have more than 5 cars in their fleet.


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## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

The chance of any of us being audited by the IRS is slight. We're chump change to them. They are looking at the big guys that cheat.


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

REX HAVOC said:


> The chance of any of us being audited by the IRS is slight. We're chump change to them. They are looking at the big guys that cheat.


Not necessarily .... there's more small fish available in the big ocean to fry. Poor schlubs have fewer resources to defend themselves from the wrath of the IRS.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

REX HAVOC said:


> The chance of any of us being audited by the IRS is slight. We're chump change to them. They are looking at the big guys that cheat.


Another tactic for them might be to go after a few thousand gig economy filers, with lots of publicity, to scare hundreds of thousands into compliance.


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

REX HAVOC said:


> The chance of any of us being audited by the IRS is slight. We're chump change to them. They are looking at the big guys that cheat.


No, they get brownie points base on number of prosecutions, not the cash value.



Uber's Guber said:


> Not necessarily .... there's more small fish available in the big ocean to fry. Poor schlubs have fewer resources to defend themselves from the wrath of the IRS.


^^^This^^^


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