# Seattle passes minimum wage rate for Uber and Lyft drivers



## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

*Seattle adopts minimum wage for Uber and Lyft drivers*










Seattle became the second big city in the nation to establish a minimum wage standard for Uber and Lyft drivers on Tuesday.

The Seattle City Council unanimously voted to adopt new regulations designed to ensure Uber and Lyft drivers earn the city's $16.39 per hour minimum wage.

The new law requires transportation network companies to pay drivers at least $0.56 per minute when there is a passenger in the vehicle as well as a per-mile rate to cover expenses. The city says that standard will ensure drivers earn at least Seattle's minimum wage, assuming they spend about 50% of their time waiting for rides or driving to pick up passengers. The minimum compensation standard takes effect on Jan. 1.

The legislation is modeled after a minimum wage standard New York City passed in 2018, though Council Chair Teresa Mosqueda dismissed the connection during the hearing. Seattle hired two researchers who advised New York City officials on their legislation to recommend a minimum wage standard when crafting the ordinance approved Tuesday. Uber and Lyft backed a separate study by Cornell researchers that produced significantly different findings. The competing studies highlight the complexities of establishing a minimum wage for gig workers.

Uber and Lyft have long said New York should serve as a cautionary tale for Seattle. Increased prices and reduced ride activity in New York followed the passage of the legislation. The apps now restrict the number of New York drivers who can work at a time, leading some drivers to sleep in their cars so that they don't miss a chance to log-on, Vice reports.

"We would ask the city not to pass this legislation and go back to the drawing board and not copycat failed systems from other cities," said Michael Wolfe, director of the Uber-backed group Drive Forward, during public comment ahead of Tuesday's hearing.

But advocates for the minimum wage, like the Teamsters 117 and affiliated Drivers Union, say it is a necessary protection for drivers. "We are putting our values of wanting to lift up every worker and particularly every worker in this city into action," Mosqueda said during the hearing.

The minimum wage is part of Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan's "Fare Share" program introduced in September, which increased a tax on each Uber and Lyft ride this past November. It is the latest in a series of city ordinances targeting the gig economy.

"Seattle is once again leading the nation by passing fair pay for Uber and Lyft drivers," Peter Kuel, a Uber and Lyft driver since 2013 and president of the Teamsters-associated Drivers Union. "Historic victories like this should serve as an inspiration for all gig workers around the country of what is possible through organizing together as a Union to demand fair treatment."

In June, the Seattle City Council unanimously approved legislation that requires food delivery companies to pay drivers $2.50 per delivery on top of their regular rates to offset costs and risks that drivers are dealing with during the pandemic. A few months earlier, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Uber, and the City of Seattle agreed to walk away from a lengthy and complex legal battle over a law that would allow drivers to unionize.

Council member Lisa Herbold suggested the minimum wage could be extended to other types of gig workers during Tuesday's hearing. "We are not going to allow contract workers in our city to be treated this way," she said. "I hope in the future we can work on similar legislation for other drivers &#8230; such as delivery drivers of packages as well as delivery drivers of meals and food."

Herbold said the legislation corrects for artificially low prices at which Uber and Lyft offer their services. "Flooding the market with drivers pushes down the cost to the customer but it does so at the expense of workers," she said. "This is much like other gig businesses, as well, where the costs of providing the service are passed off to the workers in the form of reduced earnings and benefits."

In a statement issued ahead of the vote, Lyft warned the minimum wage will cost jobs in Seattle. "The City's plan is deeply flawed and will actually destroy jobs for thousands of people - as many as 4,000 drivers on Lyft alone - and drive ride-share companies out of Seattle," the company said.

Asked about the vote, Uber referred back to a letter the company sent to the City Council earlier this month. "Uber may have to make changes in Seattle because of this new law, but the real harm here will not be to Uber &#8230; it is the drivers who cannot work and community members unable to complete essential travel that stand to lose because of the ordinance in front of you."

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/seattle-adopts-minimum-wage-uber-lyft-drivers/


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

On the surface, I love it. But you will have to let us know how it actually goes.


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Get ready for rent increases


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

I thought I read somewhere that the Mile rate would be $1.17, with a minute rate of .57 That would be a fair raise over $1.11 a mile and .18 a minute.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

I would say it only benefits the casual uber driver and not the skilled ones. I drove 3 years in the Seattle area. $20 plus an hour is ok, but anything less than that is not a livable wage, once you deduct expenses.

Most drivers I know in Seattle stopped driving since the pandemic but I know a few who still do.

Any thoughts @K-pax?



Amos69 said:


> I thought I read somewhere that the Mile rate would be $1.17, with a minute rate of .57 That would be a fair raise over $1.11 a mile and .18 a minute.


Not sure. Maybe that was something to do with the Pay per mile proposal they are trying to pass for all Washington state drivers.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Lissetti said:


> I would say it only benefits the casual uber driver and not the skilled ones. I drove 3 years in the Seattle area. $20 plus an hour is ok, but anything less than that is not a livable wage, once you deduct expenses.
> 
> Most drivers I know in Seattle stopped driving since the pandemic but I know a few who still do.
> 
> Any thoughts @K-pax?


I averaged $38.73 gross in 19 but margin of 53% puts me around $20 net. I drive XL / Comfort / X but live in the far north, creating lots of dead miles most days.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

Amos69 said:


> I averaged $38.73 gross in 19 but margin of 53% puts me around $20 net. I drive XL / Comfort / X but live in the far north, creating lots of dead miles most days.


My gross was less but my net was around $20. as well. I had a Prius C2 so empty miles wasn't a major issue, but I usually was constantly busy the areas I worked. Once I got the Corolla the ratio between my net and gross got a little larger. I wasn't willing to hunt as much in that car and chose to stay put more. Still the MPG was half compared to the Prius.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Lissetti said:


> *Seattle adopts minimum wage for Uber and Lyft drivers*
> 
> View attachment 511414
> 
> ...


For 56 cents per minute I'd tell the pax to take their sweet time shopping at Walmart. :smiles:



Amos69 said:


> I averaged $38.73 gross in 19 but margin of 53% puts me around $20 net. I drive XL / Comfort / X but live in the far north, creating lots of dead miles most days.


Congrats dude, you're getting a big raise.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Mista T said:


> On the surface, I love it. But you will have to let us know how it actually goes.


Yes, I do love it, but I read that often such minimum wage level stuff are not what they intended. Let's hope this goes well.


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## Driver100 (Aug 1, 2015)

In the long run, overall, government interference in free markets ALWAYS messes things up- for everyone.
Nothing will get fixed, no one will be satisfied; there will be unintended consequences; the politicians
cannot outsmart basic economics;
but the consultants/ politicians will be richly paid.:smiles:


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## njn (Jan 23, 2016)

It seems these cities are in a battle to see how many businesses and residents they can get to flee.


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Driver100 said:


> In the long run, overall, government interference in free markets ALWAYS messes things up- for everyone.
> Nothing will get fixed, no one will be satisfied; there will be unintended consequences; the politicians
> cannot outsmart basic economics;
> but the consultants/ politicians will be richly paid.:smiles:


Unintended consequences for sure. It creates new problems for elected officials to solve. Then those solutions create more problems and they must get re-elected to solve the new problems they helped create. Cycle continues.

Loudmouths keep a job forever.


































"We need rent control so I can keep buying my $5 coffees and $1200 smartphones DERP"


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## nosurgenodrive (May 13, 2019)

So basically they are going back to the rates that we originally signed up for.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

A CAD$0.75/minute 'wait-time/drive-time' rate (This is USD$0.56 converted to Canadian Currency) would solve many of the passenger issues in Toronto.  Drive-Thru stops, pax failing to be toes on curb, et cetera.

This approach may create a whole new set of issues in my market, but I'd love for U/L to charge their customers accordingly, and see what happens.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Young Kim said:


> Yes, I do love it, but I read that often such minimum wage level stuff are not what they intended. Let's hope this goes well.


This is less a minimum wage effect and more of a rate increase. This is what we in Seattle have been pushing for. A more New York approach.

No not the stupid people in Seattle.



ColdRider said:


> Unintended consequences for sure. It creates new problems for elected officials to solve. Then those solutions create more problems and they must get re-elected to solve the new problems they helped create. Cycle continues.
> 
> Loudmouths keep a job forever.
> 
> ...


I feel Kswama's time is coming to an end. This Chop shit has people in her district up in arms and WOKE as F. They will not be walking by the next chance to vote her hate and anger out. She only won the last election by 15 votes or something ridiculous like that.

First she must survive the recall currently being sued against her.


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## njn (Jan 23, 2016)

unintended concequences? na, they know exactly what they are doing.


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## IR12 (Nov 11, 2017)

Lissetti said:


> *Seattle adopts minimum wage for Uber and Lyft drivers*
> 
> View attachment 511414
> 
> ...


BRAVO! Hoping for the best knowing ridesharing companies would rather pay attorneys to fight against what is right because they know as long as they're litigating they most likely dont have to comply.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> A CAD$0.75/minute 'wait-time/drive-time' rate (This is USD$0.56 converted to Canadian Currency) would solve many of the passenger issues in Toronto. Drive-Thru stops, pax failing to be toes on curb, et cetera.
> 
> This approach may create a whole new set of issues in my market, but I'd love for U/L to charge their customers accordingly, and see what happens.


Yeah I get 60c per 80 seconds(can't really explain it either lol) of wait time and because of that i don't care about making drive thru trips, multi stops ect ect in the taxi.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

So, what will be the unintended consequences of this action? What could U/L do? Pretty sure they aren't going to 'turn the other cheek'.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> *Seattle adopts minimum wage for Uber and Lyft drivers*
> 
> View attachment 511414
> 
> ...














SHalester said:


> So, what will be the unintended consequences of this action? What could U/L do? Pretty sure they aren't going to 'turn the other cheek'.





SHalester said:


> So, what will be the unintended consequences of this action? What could U/L do? Pretty sure they aren't going to 'turn the other cheek'.





ColdRider said:


> Unintended consequences for sure. It creates new problems for elected officials to solve. Then those solutions create more problems and they must get re-elected to solve the new problems they helped create. Cycle continues.
> 
> Loudmouths keep a job forever.
> 
> ...


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

SHalester said:


> So, what will be the unintended consequences of this action? What could U/L do? Pretty sure they aren't going to 'turn the other cheek'.


My vision of the "consequences":

1. U/L won't pay for as many drivers on the app, so drivers will be unable to log on from time to time. Will mostly affect the part timers and extreme part timers. Full timers will just keep trying until they can log on.
2. Drivers will get paid more. Biggest benefit will be to drivers who work 20+ hrs per week.
3. U/L pay more, and pass those costs onto customers. They already have been overcharging (charging $60 for a ride while paying driver $10, for example). U/L raise prices just a bit more to cover the differential.
4. There will be more cash rides taking place, as pax try to maneuver around the higher prices. And more pax will return to the bus or sharing rides with their friends.
5. Drivers will be more tolerant of 5-15 minute stops. I mean, getting paid $33/hr to take off the mask and sit in the parking lot while Karen shops for dog food is pretty good pay. More drive thru requests get accepted by drivers.
6. Fewer pax will get shuffled. With higher pay comes higher acceptance rates and higher completion of rides.


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

I am interested to see how this will play out and just how far across the country this will go.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

SHalester said:


> So, what will be the unintended consequences of this action? What could U/L do? Pretty sure they aren't going to 'turn the other cheek'.


Uber has threatened to leave Seattle in the past, over the union thing. I wouldn't put it past them to try this move, at least temporarily to get the drivers and pax who rely on the service stirred up.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> Uber has threatened to leave Seattle in the past, over the union thing. I wouldn't put it past them to try this move, at least temporarily to get the drivers and pax who rely on the service stirred up.


Money is RUNNING OUT !

TIME IS RUNNING OUT !

COVID HAS CUT EARNINGS.

99 CENT STOCK SALE !!!


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

Mista T said:


> My vision of the "consequences":
> 
> 1. U/L won't pay for as many drivers on the app, so drivers will be unable to log on from time to time. Will mostly affect the part timers and extreme part timers. Full timers will just keep trying until they can log on.
> 2. Drivers will get paid more. Biggest benefit will be to drivers who work 20+ hrs per week.
> ...


Also the brick and motar minimum wage earners, who also have a decent car, may decide driving is better than flipping burgers or folding clothes. I wonder if this will not just change the dynamic of the drivers rather than it's numbers.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Lissetti said:


> at least temporarily to get the drivers and pax who rely on the service stirred up.


but this is a done deal, yeah? So that threat would have occurred in the lead up to the vote. Kinda surprised this discussion didn't make it to the main boards here, was in in the subforum?

I see Uber (don't do Lyft, so don't care) taking away whatever you guys had surge wise; and promos going buh bye. And, a slight long shot, limiting how many can be online ie just as they do in NYC. Yikes.

Unintended consequences just like calif AB5/Prop 22 mess(es).


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

SHalester said:


> but this is a done deal, yeah? So that threat would have occurred in the lead up to the vote. Kinda surprised this discussion didn't make it to the main boards here, was in in the subforum?
> 
> I see Uber (don't do Lyft, so don't care) taking away whatever you guys had surge wise; and promos going buh bye. And, a slight long shot, limiting how many can be online ie just as they do in NYC. Yikes.
> 
> Unintended consequences just like calif AB5/Prop 22 mess(es).


ALL THEY HAD TO DO

WAS PAY FAIRLY !


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Mista T said:


> 1. U/L won't pay for as many drivers on the app, so drivers will be unable to log on from time to time. Will mostly affect the part timers and extreme part timers. Full timers will just keep trying until they can log on.


That's not correct.

Unlike NYC, Seattle passed a rate increase, NOT a guarantee, so the only thing Uber would accomplish by locking drivers out of the app is longer wait times for pax. Uber saves NOTHING by locking drivers out of the app.

Raising rates is a vastly better move than guaranteeing hourly earnings the way NYC did. Guaranteed hourly earnings results in lockouts.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

SHalester said:


> but this is a done deal, yeah? So that threat would have occurred in the lead up to the vote.


It's a done deal. The law was passed. It will take hold in January.

_The law, passed in a 9-to-0 vote, is modeled after one passed by New York in August 2018 that caps how many ride-hailing cars from services like Uber and Lyft can be on the street. Seattle's law will require drivers be paid at least 56 cents per minute and $1.33 per mile driven while transporting passengers.

Lyft criticized the move, saying it would eliminate thousands of jobs.

https://www.cnet.com/news/seattle-approves-minimum-wage-for-uber-and-lyft-drivers/_


SHalester said:


> Kinda surprised this discussion didn't make it to the main boards here, was in in the subforum?


Many of the the veteran drivers in Seattle began moving away from rideshare when Uber did away with our surge multipliers in February of 2019. When the pandemic hit, even more hung up their keys.

https://uberpeople.net/threads/seattle-plans-minnimum-wage-and-new-tax-on-uber-and-lyft.352041/
https://uberpeople.net/threads/the-september-2020-thread-ropes-and-repos.411541/post-6532645


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

......I guess if my wife were to land a job in another state, I certainly hope it ain't near Seattle as it sounds like this would suck for me as an Uber driver. I prefer to at least gross a near $20+ an hour (all time on my shift) vs $16.39 per. Have to check my other RS gig to see if they are 'up' there.......guessing they not effected.

Well my other RS is in Seattle, so maybe it wouldn't be so bad after all. :thumbup:


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## IR12 (Nov 11, 2017)

Young Kim said:


> Yes, I do love it, but I read that often such minimum wage level stuff are not what they intended. Let's hope this goes well.


It's also worth noting $16/hr is a start but doesn't begin to address high cost of living in Seattle. 
Also, after all the Ridesharing takeaways over the last 4 yrs they still come out ahead.
Drivers deserve better but it's a baby-step situation.


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

Lissetti said:


> *Seattle adopts minimum wage for Uber and Lyft drivers*
> 
> View attachment 511414
> 
> ...


Are the mandated time and distance rates comparable to what is charged by Taxi?


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## Dammit Mazzacane (Dec 31, 2015)

A: Taxis in Seattle are more expensive per mile at $2.70 per mile , and moderately cheaper per minute at 0.50 per minute.
Compare to U/L being set to I’m guessing under $2 per mile.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> Are the mandated time and distance rates comparable to what is charged by Taxi?


I looked up Yellow Cab, which is the most popular in Seattle. It looks like its very close with cab drivers making a little bit more:

Seattle King County Taximeter Rates

Meter Drop$2.60Mileage$2.70Waiting Time (Per Minute)$0.50Extras (Each Passenger Over Two, Excluding Minors.)$0.50

https://seattleyellowcab.com/rates/
_Based on recent job postings on ZipRecruiter, the Yellow Cab Driver job market in both Seattle, WA and the surrounding area is very active. People working as a Yellow Cab Driver in your area are making on average $50,489 per year or $3,982 (9%) more than the national average annual salary of $46,507. Washington ranks number 3 out of 50 states nationwide for Yellow Cab Driver salaries.

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Yellow-Cab-Driver-Salary_


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## Dammit Mazzacane (Dec 31, 2015)

https://www.seattle.gov/your-rights...mplaints/taxi-fares-how-much-does-a-ride-cost
Right- see post above mine for the details in this link


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## Clothahump (Mar 31, 2018)

Lissetti said:


> *Seattle adopts minimum wage for Uber and Lyft drivers*
> 
> View attachment 511414
> 
> ...


$16.39 an hour? Do they have any businesses left in Seattle?

All minimum wage laws should be eliminated. They are harmful to the economy in general and to the unskilled / entry level workers in particular.. The labor market should determine the value of labor, not the government. $16.39 is a liberal screwup that was probably conceived in a room full of pot smoke and whiskey fumes.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

Clothahump said:


> $16.39 an hour? Do they have any businesses left in Seattle?
> 
> All minimum wage laws should be eliminated. They are harmful to the economy in general and to the unskilled / entry level workers in particular.. The labor market should determine the value of labor, not the government. $16.39 is a liberal screwup that was probably conceived in a room full of pot smoke and whiskey fumes.


Seattle is high tech. It used to be blue collar before Amazon took off. That inspired numerous other tech start-ups and brought other tech companies and workers to the region. For all these transplants and rapily growing communities, there is a big need for people to work in the restaurant, transportation, social activities , and retail establishments that cater to to them.

Mayor Jenny Durkan wanted to see to it that drivers weren't making less than our state legal requirement for minimum wage, and that corporations weren't creating a loophole by utilizing only gig workers.

Seattle also has one of the highest minimum wage rates in the country


State2019 Minimum Wage2020 Minimum WageAlabama$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)Alaska$9.89$10.19Arizona$11.00$12.00Arkansas$9.25$10.00California $12.00*$13.00*Colorado$11.10$12.00Connecticut$11.00$12.00Delaware$9.25$9.25Washington D.C.$14.00$15.00Florida$8.46$8.56Georgia$5.15 (Employers subject to Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the $7.25 Federal minimum wage.)$5.15 (Employers subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the $7.25 Federal minimum wage)Hawaii$10.10$10.10Idaho$7.25$7.25Illinois$8.25$10.00Indiana$7.25$7.25Iowa$7.25$7.25Kansas$7.25$7.25Kentucky$7.25$7.25Louisiana$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)Maine$11.00$12.00Maryland$10.10$11.00Massachusetts$12.00$12.75Michigan$9.45$9.65Minnesota$9.86**$10.00**Mississippi$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)Missouri$8.60$9.45Montana$8.50$8.65Nebraska$9.00$9.00Nevada$7.25***$8.00***New Hampshire$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)New Jersey$10.00$11.00New Mexico$7.50$9.00New York$11.10$11.80**** (statewide)North Carolina$7.25$7.25North Dakota$7.25$7.25Ohio$8.55$8.70Oklahoma$7.25$7.25Oregon$11.25****$12.00****Pennsylvania$7.25$7.25Rhode Island$10.50$11.50South Carolina$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)South Dakota$9.10$9.30Tennessee$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)$7.25 (Federal, no state minimum)Texas$7.25$7.25Utah$7.25$7.25Vermont$10.78$10.96Virginia$7.25$7.25Washington$12.00$13.50West Virginia$8.75$8.75Wisconsin$7.25$7.25Wyoming$5.15 (Employers subject to Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the Federal minimum wage.)$5.15 (Employers subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act must pay the $7.25 Federal minimum wage)

https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/minimum-wage-by-state


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)




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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

SHalester said:


> So, what will be the unintended consequences of this action? What could U/L do? Pretty sure they aren't going to 'turn the other cheek'.


Upfront pricing and multiple stops will probably be a thing of the past. Very hard to estimate total time at those prices. If they underestimate it will hurt their bottom line and if they overestimate it will be too expensive for passenger. When we were getting .11 per minute they were ok with customers making a pit stop at Walmart with a 20 - 30 minute wait. That's going to change.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Amos69 said:


> I averaged $38.73 gross in 19 but margin of 53% puts me around $20 net.


That can't be right, can it?


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

For the lucky few drivers that get to work will be absolutely raking it in with a set 56 cents per minute while on the trip and getting paid per mile! It a surge every ride :biggrin: I'll be saying take as long as you need to Sir/Ma'am. Do you want to go shopping? 10-20 minutes okay no problem!


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

SHalester said:


> but this is a done deal, yeah? So that threat would have occurred in the lead up to the vote. Kinda surprised this discussion didn't make it to the main boards here, was in in the subforum?
> 
> I see Uber (don't do Lyft, so don't care) taking away whatever you guys had surge wise; and promos going buh bye. And, a slight long shot, limiting how many can be online ie just as they do in NYC. Yikes.
> 
> Unintended consequences just like calif AB5/Prop 22 mess(es).


Our surge and promo went bye bye two years ago. Last Goober promo I saw was $3 extra for 30 rides.



Taxi2Uber said:


> That can't be right, can it?


YES! That is profit. Profit is what is left after all expenses are accounted for. I drive XL and my rig is a 2019. Last year I had to also account for the other 2019 that was totaled. A $5000 loss. I also carry commercial insurance because I had a solid private livery business going


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## TheTruth...... (May 6, 2020)

Young Kim said:


> Yes, I do love it, but I read that often such minimum wage level stuff are not what they intended. Let's hope this goes well.


Anything in this direction is better than Scuber and Gryft ripping off so many around the US for years, now there are some markets that you could make money with a donkey and a cart but most markets are over saturated and payed too low from the thieves.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Amos69 said:


> YES! That is profit. Profit is what is left after all expenses are accounted for.


LOL. No, I understand the concept.
I was talking about the 53% margin, but I see you had total loss included.
I'm in the 80-85%. 
53% and I wouldn't be driving.


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Lissetti said:


> *Seattle adopts minimum wage for Uber and Lyft drivers*
> 
> View attachment 511414
> 
> ...


No more unfair billions for UBER ...nice done Seattle..they should have limit how many drivers have ..for not treating workers as disposable garbage ..Uber terminate drivers for non reason only because someone expressing their inconveniences


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## Clothahump (Mar 31, 2018)

Lissetti said:


> Seattle is high tech. It used to be blue collar before Amazon took off. That inspired numerous other tech start-ups and brought other tech companies and workers to the region. For all these transplants and rapily growing communities, there is a big need for people to work in the restaurant, transportation, social activities , and retail establishments that cater to to them.
> 
> Mayor Jenny Durkan wanted to see to it that drivers weren't making less than our state legal requirement for minimum wage, and that corporations weren't creating a loophole by utilizing only gig workers.
> 
> Seattle also has one of the highest minimum wage rates in the country


I'll repeat - All minimum wage laws should be eliminated. They are harmful to the economy in general and to the unskilled / entry level workers in particular.. The labor market should determine the value of labor, not the government.


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

Clothahump said:


> I'll repeat - All minimum wage laws should be eliminated. They are harmful to the economy in general and to the unskilled / entry level workers in particular.. The labor market should determine the value of labor, not the government.


Yeah and have everyone working for free like slaves because that what used to happen.


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

Clothahump said:


> I'll repeat - All minimum wage laws should be eliminated. They are harmful to the economy in general and to the unskilled / entry level workers in particular.. The labor market should determine the value of labor, not the government.


I am pro that, and huge fan of the free market.. and it sounds great.... in theory....., if and only if both parties are at same level.

Problem is... in today's day and age... the big corps financed by big banks have much more money than the worker... and therefore can hold out much longer than the worker..... and eventually the said worker will crack and start working for peanuts.

Take bubbering for example.... if uber/lyft started with $0 and driver started with $0, then yes, market would decide what to pay the driver.... However.... uber/lyft start with enormous bank account.... where they can run at a loss for years.. where as your typical uber driver needs to cash out weekly or even more frequently.

Therefore, your stance of "let the market decide" is valid only while all other things remain equal, however, it does not apply here, because all other things are not equal.

Reverse the roles. Give bubber driver huge loans to keep him going for years and he will gladly show middle finger to uber/lyft and they would have to pay him more to incentive's him if they only have week worth moneys to keep the lights on.

Big corps can hold out much longer than workers, and this is what most of the "let the market's decide" proponents fail to see. The "free market" been dead for a long time.


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Clothahump said:


> I'll repeat - All minimum wage laws should be eliminated. They are harmful to the economy in general and to the unskilled / entry level workers in particular.. The labor market should determine the value of labor, not the government.


I'm wandering wat can of idiot you can be by saying minimum wages should be eliminated.. You mean to let corporation with foregh investors to Explore Americans as slave under minimum wages .. Hung up execution should be for anyone like you .. Slavery era have been end ..


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

You can’t pay me enough to serve the anarchist devastated people’s republic of the Commie Hatemongers Of Panic (CHOP).

Now that the producers have left town, who’s left for Uber to transport?


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Eliminate min wage?

What are you smoking?

Most workers, especially on the min wage level, have no ability to negotiate for crap.


Let's talk about a w2 job at walmart.


I walk in for the interview for a position as stockboy, I have never stocked shelves before.


"I'd like the job but i really need $15 an hour to cover my bills"

"Why?"

"That's what I'm getting paid now"

"Are you drawing a hard line?"

"I'm afraid i am"

"OK, take care"

"Janet send in the next applicant"


And no job for me...


Min wage is for jobs where the applicant has no bargaining power and there's applicants who likli have no experience anyway, and mostly be a big company that just needs warm bodied idiots to fill the ranks.


Min wage is the absolute pay floor, to keep an asshole business from paying an absolutely unlivable wage were someone could work 40 hours and still have no possible way of supporting themselves without government benefits.


If a single mom worked 40 hours a week, got paid $200 and still couldn't afford rent in the cheapest grimiest apartment complex in the city than they aren't getting paid enough.

I don't care if she is working as a toilet scrubber or a McDonalds burger flipper. You should be able to actually support yourself with a job if you can get enough hours in.


So...

Min wage IS needed, because without it there's thousands who work these jobs who have no bargaining power. Because the employer has all the control.

"Either take the $4.00 an hour or I'll find a new idiot to be my drive thru clerk who WILL take $4.00 an hour.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Immoralized said:


> Yeah and have everyone working for free like slaves because that what used to happen.


Then they IMPORT LABOR
AND KEEP SKILLED WAGES SUPPRESSED !


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

tohunt4me said:


> Then they IMPORT LABOR
> AND KEEP SKILLED WAGES SUPPRESSED !


Yes, that's called the H1-B Visas and TN-1 Visas.


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Immoralized said:


> Yeah and have everyone working for free like slaves because that what used to happen.


He is idiot probably the animal come from jungle or India they imposed minimum wages for not transform poor people into slave ..


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> Yes, that's called the H1-B Visas and TN-1 Visas.


So.
The " System" is MANIPULATED !

NOT A TRUE " FREE MARKET".



Clothahump said:


> I'll repeat - All minimum wage laws should be eliminated. They are harmful to the economy in general and to the unskilled / entry level workers in particular.. The labor market should determine the value of labor, not the government.


Companies have " FIXED" THE GAME.
NOT A FREE MARKET WITH IMPORT LABOR.

WORKERS MUST FIX THE GAME ALSO !

FREE MARKET HAS BEEN POISONED IN AMERICA !

The Oil Field USED TO BE A TRUE FREE MARKET IN THE 70'S& 80'S.
QUIT A JOB IN THE MORNING.
HAVE ANOTHER PAYING $2.00 AN HOUR MORE IN THE EVENING.

UNTIL

" IMPORT LABOR " !!!

Wages have been stagnent for over 20 Years now.

NOT A FREE MARKET.


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

tohunt4me said:


> So.
> The " System" is MANIPULATED !
> 
> NOT A TRUE " FREE MARKET".
> ...


America only gave up slavery in " The 13th Amendment, effective December 1865, abolished *slavery in* the *U.S." *Can't believe some people wanting to go back to like a hundred a fifty years in time. Which is surprising in itself for tens of thousands of years we enslaved each other and only in the past couple of hundred years we have given that up but some people are pushing to go back in time again.


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Immoralized said:


> America only gave up slavery in " The 13th Amendment, effective December 1865, abolished *slavery in* the *U.S." *Can't believe some people wanting to go back to like a hundred a fifty years in time. Which is surprising in itself for tens of thousands of years we enslaved each other and only in the past couple of hundred years we have given that up but some people are pushing to go back in time again.


Unrefined people never understand what free market is ..Free market it is after minimum wages are established up not from 0$ up


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## ANT 7 (Oct 14, 2018)

I expect Uber will cap the driver supply accordingy and use the NY model algorithm.


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

dmoney155 said:


> I am pro that, and huge fan of the free market.. and it sounds great.... in theory....., if and only if both parties are at same level.


Well said!

I was arguing with a free market guy here about minimum wage.

He was saying how some countries in Europe don't have minimum wage.

Those countries had instead industry unions that negotiated rates above what we call minimum wage. The quality of life of a fast food worker in Switzerland is higher than in America. They don't have government set minimum wage, they do it through real robust collective bargaining.

If Ride-share drivers had collective bargaining rights, then we would not need government mandated minimum wage. Taxi has no minimum wage, however the Taxi unions have a say over Meter rates and can collectively bargain on meter rates.

Without minimum wage, rideshare drivers should get collective bargaining rights over rates. Or the free market idea will fail.


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## Clothahump (Mar 31, 2018)

tohunt4me said:


> Companies have " FIXED" THE GAME.
> NOT A FREE MARKET WITH IMPORT LABOR.
> 
> WORKERS MUST FIX THE GAME ALSO !
> ...


And again I'll repeat - All minimum wage laws should be eliminated. They are harmful to the economy in general and to the unskilled / entry level workers in particular.. The labor market should determine the value of labor, not the government.


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

Gby said:


> I'm wandering wat can of idiot you can be by saying minimum wages should be eliminated.. You mean to let corporation with foregh investors to Explore Americans as slave under minimum wages .. Hung up execution should be for anyone like you .. Slavery era have been end ..


Saudi and Japanese investors using Americans for cheap labor.

Isn't that humiliating for us and a empowering position for them? I say so.

No American should be working to make those folks billions without collective bargaining rights. For the guys saying we should not have bargaining rights over our Saudi masters, I say TRAITOR.


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## Clothahump (Mar 31, 2018)

Gby said:


> I'm wandering wat can of idiot you can be by saying minimum wages should be eliminated.. You mean to let corporation with foregh investors to Explore Americans as slave under minimum wages .. Hung up execution should be for anyone like you .. Slavery era have been end ..


One of these days, you might learn that an ad hominem attack is an open admission that what was said was true and correct. You can't refute it, so you attack who said it just because you don't want it to be that way. Thanks for agreeing with me and publicly validating what I posted.


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

ANT 7 said:


> I expect Uber will cap the driver supply accordingy and use the NY model algorithm.


That was mistake what they did because the city it cap up the plate now thusands of drivers give up and no new drivers can come in ...UBER LOSE


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

Lissetti said:


> It's a done deal. The law was passed. It will take hold in January.
> 
> _The law, passed in a 9-to-0 vote, _


Congrats!

Im so happy and exited about how Seattle handled this complex issue. Proud of you guys.

The 9-0 vote gave me hope in California and it's fight against Uber and it's proposition.

We need a 7-1 vote to override Ubers Laws if they win their prop 22.

Seattle gives me great hope.✌


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Clothahump said:


> And again I'll repeat - All minimum wage laws should be eliminated. They are harmful to the economy in general and to the unskilled / entry level workers in particular.. The labor market should determine the value of labor, not the government.


And supply SHOULD NOT BE IMPORTED !



Gby said:


> That was mistake what they did because the city it cap up the plate now thusands of drivers give up and no new drivers can come in ...UBER LOSE


MAYBE
they will Finally do Something about
False Accusations Then !


----------



## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Nats121 said:


> Unless the article is missing key facts, the Seattle system guarantees a minimum wage ONLY during ENGAGED time, which is similar to Prop 22 in CA. Drivers are guaranteed NOTHING when they're not engaged.
> 
> NYC on the other hand guarantees a minimum wage for drivers whether they're engaged or idle. That's a fundamental difference from the Seattle system.
> 
> Therefore, there will be NO cap in Seattle. Uber would have nothing to gain and much to lose by capping drivers in Seattle.


Uber in NYC IT DOESN'T PAY DRIVERS ON IDLE THEY PAY DRIVERS ONLY ON THE TRIP


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Gby said:


> Uber in NYC IT DOESN'T PAY DRIVERS ON IDLE THEY PAY DRIVERS ONLY ON THE TRIP


I stand corrected about NYC, but my point stands that Uber has no incentive to limit drivers hours in Seattle because they have to pay the same higher rates regardless of who drives.


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Nats121 said:


> I stand corrected about NYC, but my point stands that Uber has no incentive to limit drivers hours in Seattle because they have to pay the same higher rates regardless of who drives.


In NYC they established those minimum rate because Uber took to much advantage of drivers then our requirements are pretty high to operate this business in order to fix all issue in this business the States should not let this company to take more then 0.5% from total fare then the problem are fixed .the company will fight to encreas the price to make more money ..


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Gby said:


> In NYC they established those minimum rate because Uber took to much advantage of drivers then our requirements are pretty high to operate this business in order to fix all issue in this business the States should not let this company to take more then 0.5% from total fare then the problem are fixed .the company will fight to encreas the price to make more money ..


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Eliminate min wage?


It would make the jurisdiction richer.



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> "I'd like the job but i really need $15 an hour to cover my bills"
> 
> "Why?"
> 
> ...


Correct. Because you would add no more value to the business than the lower paid employee. Do you think the business owner started his business to please you? Would you pay more for exactly the same shirt at Target vs the cheaper Walmart?

Approximately 2% of all employees are paid minimum wage. For the math challenged, that means approximately 98% get paid above minimum wage.

If the minimum wage was removed, would employers pay $0.01 per hour?

If raising the minimum wage is good, why stop at $15. Why not $500? The laws of economics don't suddenly kick in when prices rise high enough. A minimum wage either causes unemployment at all levels or at no levels. The higher the minimum wage, the higher the unemployment.

The fact is the higher the minimum wage the more it benefits those with skill, experience, or education. Those with no skills, experience or education will be the first to be unemployed. A higher wage doesn't make an employee more productive, it makes them more expensive.

Why don't we have clothes, tv's, microwave ovens, etc. made in the USA any more? The cost of labor is too high. We are no longer manufacture tangible goods, we are a service economy.

If we eliminate the minimum wage, the average wage may rise. New, low paying jobs will be created. The cost of some goods will decrease, spurring demand. Higher demand for products and services results in a higher demand for labor. With full employment and still a demand for labor, those will the needed skills can command a higher wage.

Minimum wage laws sound good to most voters and will vote for the politician who promises higher wages. Last I checked, only one out of 535 elected federal senators and representatives had an advanced degree in economic. When it comes to matters of economics, should we trust these politicians or maybe give some credence to a Nobel Prize winner in economics?


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## AcuramanTSX (May 26, 2017)

If Uber is paying a minimum wage, does this mean all Seattle drivers have to accept every single ride? I doubt you can get the minimum wage if you just turn the app on and don’t accept any rides.


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## El Impulsador (Apr 29, 2020)

Amos69 said:


> I averaged $38.73 gross in 19 but margin of 53% puts me around $20 net. I drive XL / Comfort / X but live in the far north, creating lots of dead miles most days.


You must be good friends with uber driver deadmiler69 on UP forum. dude claims to make $2500-$3000 consistently every week too. Such shillness and idiocracy can only trick noobs.


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

El Impulsador said:


> You must be good friends with uber driver deadmiler69 on UP forum. dude claims to make $2500-$3000 consistently every week too. Such shillness and idiocracy can only trick noobs.


That s....t with $ 2500-$3000 never existed I'm driving Uber from 2015 in NYC and I never saw that amount of money . The average earning now in NYC on Uber black it is $180 day gross fare after expenses it is $100 of courses I'm not going out any more as use to go ..the surge are misleading then I'm going out just to pay the expenses till I find another job ...


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Driver100 said:


> In the long run, overall, government interference in free markets ALWAYS messes things up- for everyone.
> Nothing will get fixed, no one will be satisfied; there will be unintended consequences; the politicians
> cannot outsmart basic economics;
> but the consultants/ politicians will be richly paid.:smiles:


Taxi industry are not free market in NYC the fare are established by government because Uber driver it requires mandatory by city to hold taxi & limiusine car plate taxi limo driver license drog test commercial insurance etc...so Uber have no investment the biggest investment in NYC are belong to the drivers


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Amos69 said:


> I averaged $38.73 gross in 19 but margin of 53% puts me around $20 net. I drive XL / Comfort / X but live in the far north, creating lots of dead miles most days.


If you make so much money Uber & Lyft don't need to worry of minimum wages ..I'm glad legislators impose regulation to make sure this predators corporation not treated workers like slave


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

bsliv said:


> It would make the jurisdiction richer.
> 
> Correct. Because you would add no more value to the business than the lower paid employee. Do you think the business owner started his business to please you? Would you pay more for exactly the same shirt at Target vs the cheaper Walmart?
> 
> ...


High immigration rates + no minimum wage = rapid wage race to the bottom.


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## simont23 (Jul 24, 2019)

Workers have to have others looking after them. Employers did not get to be employers by not being able to put what they want ahead of what other people want. The only way to make them do the right thing is to make them do the right thing. Uber drivers by definition are incapable of looking after themselves properly, which is why they need a decent uncorrupt union, or a government that will look after them. That is why unions etc exist.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> High immigration rates + no minimum wage = rapid wage race to the bottom.


Initially, perhaps, due to the supply of labor exceeding the demand for labor. But we might have industries like textile manufacturing return to this country. We might reverse the trend of outsourcing of jobs to foreign countries. Prices for items like houses and cars would be reduced. Professions which don't require advanced education would be hit the hardest with wage reduction. However, the lower prices of goods and services may erase the decrease in incomes. My profession, which requires a college degree and a two year internship, may show an increase in wages due to a steady of supply of labor but an increase in demand for our services.

High immigration + high minimum wage = very high unemployment. High unemployment = increased crime. High unemployment = high welfare = high taxes.

Many think the federal minimum was is $7.25 per hour. But its actually $0 per hour with no one allowed to earn between $0.01 and $7.24 per hour. If someone isn't productive enough to bring in more than $7.25 per hour to a business, they will earn $0 per hour.

We've had millions of people immigrate illegally in the past decade or two. And yet only about 2% of people earn the minimum wage. I'd imagine a lot of the minimum wage earners are high school students or a second income for a family. A head of household should not be working a minimum wage job. Maybe they should have started an education or built up a skill before starting a family. Regardless, the amount of head of households earning minimum wage is very small, so small that their situation could be dealt with on an individual basis.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

El Impulsador said:


> You must be good friends with uber driver deadmiler69 on UP forum. dude claims to make $2500-$3000 consistently every week too. Such shillness and idiocracy can only trick noobs.












Trolls, Everywhere I see Trolls!

I have printed my numbers all over this cruddy little RS board My best gross year was $72,000, But i drive PT/ FT. That is I travel alot and I never drive 6 days a week. My average is 3.27 days a week. I drive 8-10 hours a day when I do.
I know many drivers who gross six figures in their XL rigs.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

bsliv said:


> Initially, perhaps, due to the supply of labor exceeding the demand for labor.


Not just initially, they'd stay low as long as the supply of labor remains high.



bsliv said:


> But we might have industries like textile manufacturing return to this country. We might reverse the trend of outsourcing of jobs to foreign countries.


Like I said, a race to the bottom. The countries presently producing those goods pay their workers a fraction of US wages.



bsliv said:


> Prices for items like houses and cars would be reduced.


Don't count on it. Prices for both have climbed dramatically over the years despite the fact that real wages have been falling since 1970.

High immigration rates means more demand for housing which means upward pressure on prices.



bsliv said:


> High immigration + high minimum wage = very high unemployment. High unemployment = increased crime. High unemployment = high welfare = high taxes.


There's multiple conflicting studies about higher minimum wages' effect on unemployment.



bsliv said:


> Many think the federal minimum was is $7.25 per hour. But its actually $0 per hour with no one allowed to earn between $0.01 and $7.24 per hour. If someone isn't productive enough to bring in more than $7.25 per hour to a business, they will earn $0 per hour.


I've seen various conservatives and libertarians who allegedly should know better use that lame argument. They like to use as an example a person starting a new business and calculating the "worth" of each new employee. As part of their example the entrepreneur inevitably gets pissed off that because of the "whopping" minimum wage, he/she will be forced to pay one or more worker more than they're "worth".

The major flaw of their example is that the entrepreneur isn't the one who determines the workers "worth", it's the market that does.

A McD store in a market with very low unemployment will find it next to impossible to get even subpar workers willing to work for anywhere near minimum wage.

By contrast, a McD store in a depressed area with high unemployment will probably have little trouble attracting good workers to work for minimum wage.



bsliv said:


> We've had millions of people immigrate illegally in the past decade or two. And yet only about 2% of people earn the minimum wage.


As you should be aware, many illegal immigrants work for cash under the table. Secondly, 42% of workers are making less than $15 per hour and 23 million are earning $7.25-$11 per hour. In economically depressed areas the percentage of low paid workers is much higher.

The high cost of living (especially housing) in many regions means that $15 per hour isn't enough to live on let alone $8 or $11 per hour.

To put things in perspective, many of the Chicken Little execs who say the sky is falling at the prospect of paying higher minimum wages don't say the sky is falling when bigwigs are given golden parachutes to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. Just one of those golden parachutes could fund a hefty percentage of the minimum wage increase.



bsliv said:


> A head of household should not be working a minimum wage job. Maybe they should have started an education or built up a skill before starting a family. Regardless, the amount of head of households earning minimum wage is very small, so small that their situation could be dealt with on an individual basis.


Your opinion notwithstanding, many heads of households are toiling at low wage jobs, so we have to deal with it.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Not just initially, they'd stay low as long as the supply of labor remains high.


You must consider demand for labor. The supply could skyrocket but if demand goes even higher, wages will increase.



Nats121 said:


> The countries presently producing those goods pay their workers a fraction of US wages.


And what wage should uneducated, unskilled, new immigrants be paid? I say only fractionally better than they were paid in the native countries. If they are willing to work for $1 an hour, fine with me.



Nats121 said:


> Don't count on it. Prices for both have climbed dramatically over the years despite the fact that real wages have been falling since 1970.


If you're going to adjust for inflation with wages, you must adjust for inflation with prices. Housing has slightly increased. Cars, gas, electronics, food, etc., have decreased, adjusted for inflation.



Nats121 said:


> There's multiple conflicting studies about higher minimum wages' effect on unemployment.


Figures don't lie but liars can figure. Its a basic economic law that the more expensive an item is the less of that item will be bought. Of course, there are exceptions, like monopolies and government interventions.



Nats121 said:


> the entrepreneur inevitably gets pissed off


One shouldn't get pissed off doing math. If I determine an additional cashier will generate $200 in revenue in 40 hours of work, I'd be a fool to hire the cashier at more than $5.00 per hour. Doing that calculation shouldn't make anyone happy or pissed off. Its reality. The person who should be pissed off is the person willing to work for $5.00 per hour but instead gets $0.



Nats121 said:


> the entrepreneur isn't the one who determines the workers "worth", it's the market that does


Exactly. What do you suppose the market for butterfly counters is? Since we don't have any, its obviously below any minimum wage.



Nats121 said:


> A McD store in a market with very low unemployment will find it next to impossible to get even a subpar workers willing to work for anywhere near minimum wage.
> 
> By contrast, a McD store in a depressed area with high unemployment will probably have no trouble attracting good workers to work for minimum wage.


Correct in both statements. So why don't we let market forces determine the prevailing wage? If we impose a minimum wage in your depressed zone, McD's may abandon the market since they can't make a profit. Businesses abandoning a market is bad for the business and bad for the area. The area gets further depressed.

A high minimum wage hurts depressed areas the hardest, just like it hurts the low skilled workers in good markets the most. Those who the law was intended to help get hurt the worst.

A high minimum wage in an area that has full employment is mostly irrelevant. No one will accept a job at minimum wage if they can find one at a much higher wage.



Nats121 said:


> many illegal immigrants work for cash under the table


Yep. Partly because they accept a wage that is below minimum and therefore illegal. Legal minimum wage earners pay no federal income tax. Help reduce the illegal under the table jobs by eliminating the minimum wage.



Nats121 said:


> In economically depressed areas the percentage of low paid workers is much higher.


Obviously, that fits the definition of economically depressed. And a minimum wage will increase unemployment in these areas, just the opposite of what should be striven for. Full employment (due to no minimum) will dry up the supply of labor. A shortage of labor will drive up wages. This is the free market at work. Those in the bayou should not expect the same wage at those in downtown San Francisco.



Nats121 said:


> bigwigs are given golden parachutes


The local markets determine the prevailing wage for labor, not what some executive in some remote location earns. Those who earn a high wage should be celebrated and emulated, not villainized and condemned. Jealousy is not a market force. Would a maximum wage be workable?



Nats121 said:


> many heads of households are toiling at low wage jobs


Why? Why would someone start a family if they can only earn low wages? Poor decisions by a very few people should not determine economic policy for a large nation.

If I'm willing to work for $x and someone is willing to pay me $x, how is it right for a third party to say no?

A high minimum wage increases unemployment for the least skilled. Its similar to removing the bottom rung of a ladder. The most skilled can leap above the bottom rung and can advance as they acquire more skill. The least skilled are stuck on the ground with no chance for advancement. Put the bottom rung back on the ladder. Eliminate the minimum wage.

Don't trust any politician, they want votes in the short term. On economic issues (minimum wage), listed to those educated and/or experienced in economic issues.

ps. I have a BA in Economics (40 years ago) and have worked as an economist for >25 years as an independent contractor. That's more education and experience in economics that most who make laws involving economics. In my opinion, the free market has, is, and can work again. Freedom over force almost every time is the right answer.

If $15 an hour is the right answer, shouldn't $150 an hour be a better answer?


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

bsliv said:


> You must consider demand for labor. The supply could skyrocket but if demand goes even higher, wages will increase.


Demand hasn't kept up with supply, thus the decline of real wages since 1970.



bsliv said:


> And what wage should uneducated, unskilled, new immigrants be paid? I say only fractionally better than they were paid in the native countries. If they are willing to work for $1 an hour, fine with me.


Our immigration system must always put the welfare of Americans first. Importing large numbers of poor immigrants hurts the working class in this country. That should not be allowed to occur. The notion of American workers being paid $1 an hour is absurd unless you think a Third World standard of living is acceptable in this country.



bsliv said:


> If you're going to adjust for inflation with wages, you must adjust for inflation with prices. Housing has slightly increased. Cars, gas, electronics, food, etc., have decreased, adjusted for inflation


Housing, especially rentals have gone up faster than the rate of inflation and even faster than wages.



bsliv said:


> igures don't lie but liars can figure. Its a basic economic law that the more expensive an item is the less of that item will be bought. Of course, there are exceptions, like monopolies and government interventions


Higher minimum wage causes some job loss but it's offset by increased buying power for workers. The conflicting studies are at odds over the offset.



bsliv said:


> One shouldn't get pissed off doing math. If I determine an additional cashier will generate $200 in revenue in 40 hours of work, I'd be a fool to hire the cashier at more than $5.00 per hour


Last time I checked cashiers didn't generate any revenue. Neither do janitors. Both may be needed, but not for generating revenue. A fool is a business owner who tries to hire a cashier at $5 per hour in a market where the going rate is $10 per hour.



bsliv said:


> Exactly. What do you suppose the market for butterfly counters is? Since we don't have any, its obviously below any minimum wage.


Your butterfly analogy is pointless because if there's no market there's no job, and no job means no wage of any amount.

You say "exactly" and yet you continue to promote the foolish notion that business owners can "decide" how much a job is worth. You and other conservatives/libertarians speak out of both sides of your mouths on this issue.



bsliv said:


> Correct in both statements. So why don't we let market forces determine the prevailing wage?


Our immigration policy along with financial incentives for companies to locate overseas has tilted the market against American workers, thus workers need the protection of a wage floor, especially in depressed areas.



bsliv said:


> If we impose a minimum wage in your depressed zone, McD's may abandon the market since they can't make a profit. Businesses abandoning a market is bad for the business and bad for the area. The area gets further depressed.


The minimum wage should be set at a level that benefits workers while minimizing business closings. Given the fact that the federal minimum wage has lost more than 30% of its buying power since 1968, there's certainly room for an increase.



bsliv said:


> A high minimum wage hurts depressed areas the hardest


It helps those areas the most because it's needed the most in those areas.



bsliv said:


> just like it hurts the low skilled workers in good markets the most.


Very few highly skilled workers in good markets are going to be interested in minimum wage type of jobs.



bsliv said:


> Help reduce the illegal under the table jobs by eliminating the minimum wage.


Why stop at eliminating minimum wage? Just think how much MORE we could eliminate under the table jobs if we eliminate FICA, Comp, Unemployment Insurance, overtime pay, etc.



bsliv said:


> The local markets determine the prevailing wage for labor, not what some executive in some remote location earns.


I already addressed this in a previous post.



bsliv said:


> The local markets determine the prevailing wage for labor, not what some executive in some remote location earns. Those who earn a high wage should be celebrated and emulated, not villainized and condemned.


My previous point about exec's "concern" that minimum wage hikes increases unemployment stands. You're trying to stifle debate with class envy argument.



bsliv said:


> Jealousy is not a market force.


Neither is the old boys network that's active in many corporate boardrooms.



bsliv said:


> Would a maximum wage be workable?


I'm not in favor of a mandatory one but a voluntary one would be fine with me. The savings that would result could be put to good use.



bsliv said:


> If I'm willing to work for $x and someone is willing to pay me $x, how is it right for a third party to say no?


It's illegal for an employer to pay less than minimum wage and I agree with that. If you want to hand the money back to your boss that's up to you.



bsliv said:


> If $15 an hour is the right answer, shouldn't $150 an hour be a better answer?


That's another lame rhetorical question used by opponents of minimum wage. It's like asking if 2 aspirins are good shouldn't 100 be better?

As an economist you're familiar with diminishing returns. There's a point somewhere with minimum wage where it starts to do increasingly more harm than good. Determining the approximation of that point would require research.



bsliv said:


> 25 years as an independent contractor.


A simple litmus test that eliminates all of the vagueness of the current tests should be used to determine whether or not someone is an IC...

Party A performs a task or service for Party B under the rules and rates authored by Party A, Party B is a customer of Party A.

Party A performs a task or service for Party B under the rules and rates authored by Party B, Party B is the employer of Party A.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Demand hasn't kept up with supply, thus the decline of real wages since 1970.


Because we have a minimum wage.



Nats121 said:


> American workers being paid $1 an hour


$1 an hour used to be a high wage. Inflation has killed the value of our money. Keep printing more and it will erode even more.



Nats121 said:


> Higher minimum wage causes some job loss but it's offset by increased buying power for workers. The conflicting studies are at odds over the offset.


The only time there are conflicting studies is when the minimum wage is low enough (compared to the prevailing wage) to be mostly irrelevant. No economist will argue against the principle of supply and demand in a free market.



Nats121 said:


> Last time I checked cashiers didn't generate any revenue. Neither do janitors. Both may be needed, but not for generating revenue. A fool is a business owner who tries to hire a cashier at $5 per hour in a market where the going rate is $10 per hour.


Hiring to prevent a loss is equivalent to hiring to generate revenue. Imagine what would happen to a busy Walmart with only one cashier. A business owner that hires a cashier for $5 an hour in a market with a prevailing wage of $10 an hour is smart, not a fool. The fool is the person willing to accept half the prevailing wage.



Nats121 said:


> You say "exactly" and yet you continue to promote the foolish notion that business owners can "decide" how much a job is worth.


I said "exactly" in response to you saying the market determines the wage. And yet you want to legislate a minimum wage. Talk about both sides of the mouth. A business owner determines what wage is acceptable to themselves for a specific job. If the owner decides an additional cashier will only generate (or save) $5 and hour, they won't pay more than $5 an hour. If a person is willing to work that job at that rate, too bad for the worker and the owner. That person will be *unemployed and the business won't grow.*



Nats121 said:


> protection of a wage floor, especially in depressed areas.


You might as well say we need the create unemployment, especially in depressed areas.



Nats121 said:


> federal minimum wage has lost more than 30% of its buying power since 1968, there's certainly room for an increase.


Or it could be that the minimum wage was too high in 1968. Look what happened to the economy in the '70's. Stagflation - no growth and inflation, exactly what one would expect with a too high of a minimum wage.



Nats121 said:


> You're trying to stifle debate with class envy argument.


You're the one that brought up the high pay of some executives. There pay is irrelevant to what gets paid to their employees. Bill Gates made billions but Microsoft paid its employees well. Jealousy is not a market force, its only a justification for pay earners to complain.



Nats121 said:


> It's illegal for an employer to pay less than minimum wage and I agree with that.


So you're anti free market. You believe the state knows what's best for an individual. I have an opposite point of view. I know what's best for me and I don't need a nanny.



Nats121 said:


> There's a point somewhere with minimum wage where it starts to do increasingly more harm than good.


That point is at $0.01. Anything above that creates harm. The higher it is, the more harm created.

My first job paid me $0.50 an hour and was glad to have it. My current day job requires a 2 year internship. The intern does a lot of work while learning the business. I know of at least 1 intern that worked for free. There are probably other interns that pay to work/learn. If two people come to a financial agreement, there should not be a third party that says the agreement isn't fair.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

bsliv said:


> My first job paid me $0.50 an hour


wow, you must be really really really old. :thumbup: But, I have you beat: my first 'job' delivering papers I think I got a few dollars PER address a month.

When I actually had an official W2 job my hourly was $3.35 (in calif). So I guess I'm younger than you. By a margin. :roflmao:


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

SHalester said:


> you must be really really really old


Yes, I'm old. But my point is that was the market rate. The market rate was below the legal minimum wage. It was a very small town with extremely limited jobs. I was in high school with no skill or experience in anything. Sweeping and mopping the floor was my primary duty. But it taught me discipline and responsibility. It also taught me a bit about a hardware store. I was able to buy a car after a year or so. If my employer had been required to pay a higher wage, I wouldn't have had the car or education. And my employer would have had to sweep and mop the floor himself. Being 14 years old at that time, I lived at home and didn't have a family.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

bsliv said:


> But it taught me discipline and responsibility


in my state, Calif, minimum wage, back in the day, was really so the fast food corps didn't take advantage of HS aged kids who wanted job experience and to make more money than mommy and daddy gave as an allowance.

And this forum looks down on fast food workers; shame. It's a great way to get work experience and fills out the resume. For HS kids, at least......


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

bsliv said:


> Because we have a minimum wage.


There's been a federal minimum wage since the 1930s, and real wages peaked around 1968, so you'll have to find another reason.



bsliv said:


> The only time there are conflicting studies is when the minimum wage is low enough (compared to the prevailing wage) to be mostly irrelevant. No economist will argue against the principle of supply and demand in a free market.


Many economists argue that increasing the minimum wage increases demand for goods and services which increases employment.



bsliv said:


> Hiring to prevent a loss is equivalent to hiring to generate revenue. Imagine what would happen to a busy Walmart with only one cashier. A business owner that hires a cashier for $5 an hour in a market with a prevailing wage of $10 an hour is smart, not a fool. The fool is the person willing to accept half the prevailing wage.


By your own argument that business owner is being a fool. Trying to find a cashier for $5 per hour in a market where the going rate is $10 means the business owner will have an extremely difficult time finding one, which means the business will be short of the required number of cashiers to serve the customers, which means more losses by your argument. That's an example of a penny-wise and pound-foolish business owner.



bsliv said:


> I said "exactly" in response to you saying the market determines the wage. And yet you want to legislate a minimum wage.


That's right, I'm in favor of a minimum wage. As I've already stated workers need the protection of a wage floor. And yes, the free market is the primary determinant of wages in a given market. The problem with relying exclusively on the market to determine wages is that in economically depressed areas where people are desperate for work companies have the power to exploit the workers. That's why a wage floor is needed.



bsliv said:


> You might as well say we need the create unemployment, especially in depressed areas.


That's your view of the minimum wage.



bsliv said:


> Or it could be that the minimum wage was too high in 1968. Look what happened to the economy in the '70's. Stagflation - no growth and inflation, exactly what one would expect with a too high of a minimum wage.


I doubt that even Milton Freedman blamed stagflation on the minimum wage.



bsliv said:


> You're the one that brought up the high pay of some executives. There pay is irrelevant to what gets paid to their employees.


No isn't irrelevant according to their argument against increasing the minimum wage. They claim that the increased cost of paying higher minimum wage would result in layoffs. Raising the minimum wage would cost them more money, but so does the spiraling exec salaries. Unsurprisingly they don't want to talk about how much that particular expense is costing the company.



bsliv said:


> So you're anti free market.


That's false.



bsliv said:


> You believe the state knows what's best for an individual.


That's also false and a lame attempt at a strawman argument.

My view on govt regulation is simple... For every new regulation that gets proposed the burden rests with the govt to make a compelling case that it's needed. Existing regulations should also be periodically checked to see if they're still needed.

I support the free market in most cases but I'm not an extremist. Some regulations are needed such as anti-pollution and anti-discrimination laws. The govt made a compelling case for the creation of both. In my view the govt hasn't made a compelling case for anti-trust laws.



bsliv said:


> That point is at $0.01. Anything above that creates harm. The higher it is, the more harm created.


That's your opinion.



bsliv said:


> My first job paid me $0.50 an hour and was glad to have it.


So what? A model T Ford was $290 in 1925 and a nice large home could be had for less than $3000 in many places.



bsliv said:


> My current day job requires a 2 year internship. The intern does a lot of work while learning the business. I know of at least 1 intern that worked for free. There are probably other interns that pay to work/learn. If two people come to a financial agreement, there should not be a third party that says the agreement isn't fair.


There's various requirements that must be met in order to exempt an intern from being paid minimum wage in order to prevent a scamming company from getting free or nearly free labor.

Again, I support a "third party" mandating that minimum wages be paid.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> There's been a federal minimum wage since the 1930s, and real wages peaked around 1968


You keep changing the argument. I said housing prices would decrease after removing the minimum wage. You said housing prices have gone up. I said there is still a minimum wage. And now you replay with there has been a minimum wage since the '30's.



Nats121 said:


> Many economists argue that increasing the minimum wage increases demand for goods and services which increases employment.


What goods and services are minimum wage earners buying so much of that demand will increase? Food? Rent? Increased demand of food or rent will cause their price to increase. Minimum wager earners spend a higher percentage of their income on basics (rent, food, etc.) than high wage earners. Again, the minimum wage will hurt minimum wage earners the most.



Nats121 said:


> By your own argument that business owner is being a fool. Trying to find a cashier for $5 per hour in a market where the going rate is $10 means the business owner will have an extremely difficult time finding one, which means the business will be short of the required number of cashiers to serve the customers, which means more losses by your argument. That's an example of a penny-wise and pound-foolish business owner.


If hiring a cashier will save or make $5 an hour for the business and the cashier asks for $10 an hour, the cashier will not be hired.

If hiring a cashier will save or make $11 an hour for the business and the cashier asks for $10 an hour, the cashier will be hired.

If hiring a cashier will save or make $11 an hour for the business and the cashier asks for $10 an hour but the minimum wage is $11, the cashier will not be hired, The cashier will be unemployed. The business will not grow.



Nats121 said:


> That's right, I'm in favor of a minimum wage. As I've already stated workers need the protection of a wage floor. And yes, the free market is the primary determinant of wages in a given market. The problem with relying exclusively on the market to determine wages is that in economically depressed areas where people are desperate for work companies have the power to exploit the workers. That's why a wage floor is needed.


If the minimum wage is above the market wage for a particular job, that job will not be filled. That harms both the employer and employee. That is not the way to end a depression. If an area is depressed, ask why? Businesses aren't hiring because people aren't buying. People aren't buying because they don't have jobs. If there was a way to get businesses to hire, the depression would end.



Nats121 said:


> I doubt that even Milton Freedman blamed stagflation on the minimum wage.


You shouldn't doubt it. Friedman predicted the economic conditions of the 1970's. In retrospect, it shouldn't have been difficult to predict. Artificially increasing wages will increase inflation and increase unemployment. Friedman predicted the effects may take 2 - 5 years to be felt.



Nats121 said:


> No isn't irrelevant according to their argument against increasing the minimum wage. They claim that the increased cost of paying higher minimum wage would result in layoffs. Raising the minimum wage would cost them more money, but so does the spiraling exec salaries. Unsurprisingly they don't want to talk about how much that particular expense is costing the company.


What I make is irrelevant to what you make, even if we work at the same business. Its the market that should determine wages, all wages, from the janitor to the ceo. That's called a free market (for labor). But you seem to want the government to dictate both the janitor's wage and the ceo's wage. I would not call that free market thinking. Lenin would be proud of you.



Nats121 said:


> There's various requirements that must be met in order to exempt an intern from being paid minimum wage in order to prevent a scamming company from getting free or nearly free labor.


Was I an intern when I earned $0.50 an hour? I didn't think I was. My employer didn't call me one. But the education I learned at that entry level job allowed me to progress to higher paying jobs. Any job can be viewed as a learning experience which could help the employee advance to a higher paying job. Being unemployed has very few learning experiences.

Let the market decide what a job is worth. Don't force me to pay a specific amount for a good or service. Economic freedom will produce the most profit for all involved. An economy with forced wages and prices is doomed to fail. An economy with only a few forced wages and prices will fail to achieve its maximum performance.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

bsliv said:


> You keep changing the argument. I said housing prices would decrease after removing the minimum wage. You said housing prices have gone up. I said there is still a minimum wage. And now you replay with there has been a minimum wage since the '30's.


I haven't changed anything. Real wages have declined since 1970. The buying power of the minimum wage is lower than it's been in years. The minimum wage itself has not been raised since 2009. It spite of all that, housing prices have risen exponentially since 1968.



bsliv said:


> What goods and services are minimum wage earners buying so much of that demand will increase? Food? Rent? Increased demand of food or rent will cause their price to increase. Minimum wager earners spend a higher percentage of their income on basics (rent, food, etc.) than high wage earners. Again, the minimum wage will hurt minimum wage earners the most.


They also buy clothing and other goods. A higher minimum wage means they'll be able to buy more things, which in turn creates the need for more jobs.



bsliv said:


> If hiring a cashier will save or make $5 an hour for the business and the cashier asks for $10 an hour, the cashier will not be hired.
> 
> If hiring a cashier will save or make $11 an hour for the business and the cashier asks for $10 an hour, the cashier will be hired.
> 
> If hiring a cashier will save or make $11 an hour for the business and the cashier asks for $10 an hour but the minimum wage is $11, the cashier will not be hired, The cashier will be unemployed. The business will not grow


You previously said the cashier brings in revenue to the business and that not having enough cashiers will hurt the business. The bottom line is a business owner that stubbornly refuses to pay $10 per hour (the market rate) for a cashier that he/she believes is only worth $5 is cutting her own throat when service goes down the drain and customers shop elsewhere.



bsliv said:


> If the minimum wage is above the market wage for a particular job, that job will not be filled.


If that was true there'd be no McD or other businesses in depressed areas with very high unemployment, but there are businesses in those places. Business owners who may oppose the minimum wage will suck it up and pay it if they can still turn a profit because it beats closing their doors.



bsliv said:


> You shouldn't doubt it. Friedman predicted the economic conditions of the 1970's. In retrospect, it shouldn't have been difficult to predict. Artificially increasing wages will increase inflation and increase unemployment. Friedman predicted the effects may take 2 - 5 years to be felt.


Post a quote from Friedman blaming stagflation on the minimum wage.


bsliv said:


> What I make is irrelevant to what you make, even if we work at the same business. Its the market that should determine wages, all wages, from the janitor to the ceo. That's called a free market (for labor). But you seem to want the government to dictate both the janitor's wage and the ceo's wage. I would not call that free market thinking. Lenin would be proud of you.


It's certainly not irrelevant to the people running the corporation, and they're the ones complaining about the high cost of minimum wage increases. If you know anything about the way corporations work you know that market forces are far from being the only factor in deciding how much execs get paid.

I've made my views on the free market clear so there's no need for me to respond to your foolish Lenin BS.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> I haven't changed anything. Real wages have declined since 1970. The buying power of the minimum wage is lower than it's been in years. The minimum wage itself has not been raised since 2009. It spite of all that, housing prices have risen exponentially since 1968.


I say housing prices would be lower without a minimum wage. You say housing prices continue to rise. How did housing prices perform without a minimum wage? Please don't say housing prices continue to rise.



Nats121 said:


> They also buy clothing and other goods.


If they can keep their jobs. As labor gets more expensive, less labor is bought.



Nats121 said:


> You previously said the cashier brings in revenue to the business and that not having enough cashiers will hurt the business. The bottom line is a business owner that stubbornly refuses to pay $10 per hour (the market rate) for a cashier that he/she believes is only worth $5 is cutting her own throat when service goes down the drain and customers shop elsewhere.


It seems I have given you more credit than deserved. An employee won't be hired unless they contribute more than their wage to the business. If the business owner loses $9 per hour due to a lack of cashiers, they won't hire a cashier at $10 an hour. Its simple math.



Nats121 said:


> If that was true there'd be no McD or other businesses in depressed areas with very high unemployment, but there are businesses in those places. Business owners who may oppose the minimum wage will suck it up and pay it if they can still turn a profit because it beats closing their doors.


Businesses closing in depressed areas is common. In some depressed areas of Las Vegas, fast food and grocery stores are scarce. Lower the minimum wage in those areas and businesses would flock to the areas. As you alluded to, profit is the key. Businesses will try to maximize profits. Just as employees will try to maximize profits. Profit is not evil. Profit is what drives markets. Profit is good for both employers and employees. Some here want to demonize profit. Some here think the earth is flat. Education should cure both misconceptions.



Nats121 said:


> Post a quote from Friedman blaming stagflation on the minimum wage.


The word "stagflation" was created by journalists. Friedman didn't use the word as far as I know. But his concepts predicted stagflation. He was a free market economist. He repeatedly wrote and spoke about the unintended consequence of a minimum wage. Unions push legislators to invoke minimum wages. Legislators bow down to the unions in order to get votes.

The economic crisis of the early '70 was brought about by the drastic rise in price of a commodity in high demand. Labor is a commodity in high demand. Many can't see the effects of a slowly rising minimum wage. Its a death from a 1000 cuts.



Nats121 said:


> the way corporations work you know that market forces are far from being the only factor in deciding how much execs get paid


Perhaps but it is the primary factor. If I can get a cheaper exec that performs the same, I will. If I have to bid to get the exec I want, I will. If I can pay the exec less and still get the same performance, I will. But yes, there are other forces. If Bill Gates was a child molester, he'd probably wouldn't have been ceo of MS for long.

Lenin wanted to fix the wages of everyone. You only want to fix the wages of the poorest and richest. How long before more people are called poor and more are called rich? That slippery slope leads to everyone's wages to be fixed.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

bsliv said:


> How did housing prices perform without a minimum wage?


odd. how does minimum wage job pay for a house? When was there a time with no minimum wage and somebody decided that effected housing prices? Was there a study? Article? Book?

Nah, not buying it. School district ratings effect housing prices. Crime rates effect housing prices. What entry level jobs might pay, not so much or none at all.

How about minimum wage effects rental rates? That sounds plausible.


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## RetiredArmyGuy (Dec 15, 2018)

Lissetti said:


> *Seattle adopts minimum wage for Uber and Lyft drivers*
> 
> View attachment 511414
> 
> ...


I had a slow day today- $18.66/hour.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

SHalester said:


> odd. how does minimum wage job pay for a house? When was there a time with no minimum wage and somebody decided that effected housing prices? Was there a study? Article? Book?


I stated having no minimum wage would reduce the cost of a house. A person replied housing prices continue to increase. How is that translated to a minimum wage earner buying a house? The last time there was no minimum wage in this country was the early 20th century. My question concerning housing prices without a minimum wage was mostly facetious due to the reply I was given.



SHalester said:


> Nah, not buying it. School district ratings effect housing prices. Crime rates effect housing prices. What entry level jobs might pay, not so much or none at all.


I know how to value real estate. I've been a licensed real estate appraiser for >25 years. I also have the education, skill, and experience to value personal property. I also have the education and skill to value labor rates. The principle of substitution (supply/demand) is the primary influence.



SHalester said:


> How about minimum wage effects rental rates? That sounds plausible.


Rental rates, like almost everything, is controlled by the supply of rentals vs the demand for the rentals. Another "feel good" law is to fix the price of rentals. It sounds good and is good for those lucky enough to find a rent controlled rental. But it is counter productive.


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)




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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

Gby said:


> I'm wandering wat can of idiot you can be by saying minimum wages should be eliminated.. You mean to let corporation with foregh investors to Explore Americans as slave under minimum wages .. Hung up execution should be for anyone like you .. Slavery era have been end ..


You can't expect everyone to be as educated as you.

BTW how's business in New York doing these days?


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## Steve appleby (May 30, 2015)

Seattle has always been a very...how should I say this... weird city.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

SHalester said:


> wow, you must be really really really old. :thumbup: But, I have you beat: my first 'job' delivering papers I think I got a few dollars PER address a month.
> 
> When I actually had an official W2 job my hourly was $3.35 (in calif). So I guess I'm younger than you. By a margin. :roflmao:


Or he is just a liar.

Might actually be DT, as he has much time to waste this week


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Amos69 said:


> Or he is just a liar.
> 
> Might actually be DT, as he has much time to waste this week


What is DT? What do you think I'm lying about? What reason would I have to lie? I'm collecting social security, if that means anything. Eisenhower was president when I was born. My first car was 12 years old and cost me $100. I have stage 4 lung cancer. I had 4 surgeries last year. I'm trying to educate some who are blind to the workings of business/government before I croak. I have no reason to lie.

Stop smoking cigarettes.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

bsliv said:


> My first car was 12 years old and cost me $100.


ha, got you beat again. My first car was older than me, a 6 cylinder running on maybe 4: cost me baby sitting time.

Sorry about your cancer. I have cancer, too. but no treatment yet and no 'stage'. Just a gleason score. Cancer, sucks.



bsliv said:


> I stated having no minimum wage would reduce the cost of a house.


And that is exactly what I'm questioning. Do you own a house? Have lived in a time when there as no minimum wage? Asking for myself, directly. Going with that is your opinion and not a well known fact (like the ones I replied with).



bsliv said:


> I stated having no minimum wage would reduce the cost of a house.


And that is exactly what I'm questioning. Do you own a house? Have lived in a time when there as no minimum wage? Asking for myself, directly. Going with that is your opinion and not a well known fact (like the ones I replied with).


bsliv said:


> I know how to value real estate. I've been a licensed real estate appraiser for >25 years.


sorry, no appraisal I've seen for any property listed 'minimum wage'. It simply has no relevance. Unemployed has a relevance. School district has relevance. The neighbors to the side and front of property has relevance. SQ feet, amount of rooms has relevance. Recent transactions have relevance. 
Fast worker pay has no relevance. And again has there been a state/area with no minimum wage (ever) and somebody said that had relevance to home price(s)?


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

SHalester said:


> Cancer, sucks.


One drug I'm on costs $3200 a week.



SHalester said:


> Do you own a house?


No, but as I said before, I know how to value property. Name a national bank and chances are very good they have asked me for my *opinion *on value. I have to determine if the current supply is normal, a shortage, or a surplus. I have to estimate demand. I have to determine typical marketing time. I have to compute physical, functional, and external depreciation. I often times have to compute the value of property based on the net income it produces. I create operating income statements. About 10 years ago, my name was read in court for nearly a hundred cases as an expert in valuing real estate. It involved HOA's and super-priority liens. I have a degree in economics. I know how to value property.



SHalester said:


> Have lived in a time when there as no minimum wage?


No, that would make me at least 100 years old.



SHalester said:


> Going with that is your opinion and not a well known fact (like the ones I replied with).


Those well known "facts" that you replied with are not always applicable. I get paid $400 to develop my *opinion *on a piece of non-complex property. If you get a mortgage or refinance your current mortgage, you'll need a signature from someone like me. For your information, school districts and crime rates are seldom directly used by appraisers. My reports are between 20 and 30 pages long. School districts and crime rates are not mentioned once. An appraiser's *opinion *is always used in an appraisal. So, my opinion beats your facts when it comes to valuing property (real or personal). Any other questions?

If the cost of any product declines, the price of that product will also decline, given sufficient competition.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

bsliv said:


> If you get a mortgage or refinance your current mortgage, you'll need a signature from someone like me.


sorry about your cancer drug; I've not reached that stage yet. Just drugs to reduce the size of a certain organ only guys have.....

So, yes, have bought 3 homes. Refi'd one; HELOC on that same one; sold 3 homes. Very very very aware of the require appraisals. The items I listed actually DISPLAY on the final appraisal report. Well, not the employment rate, not the minimum wage. And that was my point minimum wage page in that state has no bearing on home prices. and, even I granted it was, it would be so far down the list to have no effect.
A house across the street that is 'run down' will have an effect. The wage tacobell pays brand new employees, doesn't.

And, just to say, appraisal reports cost way too much since a computer does 99% of the work. Just saying.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

SHalester said:


> sorry about your cancer drug; I've not reached that stage yet. Just drugs to reduce the size of a certain organ only guys have.....
> 
> So, yes, have bought 3 homes. Refi'd one; HELOC on that same one; sold 3 homes. Very very very aware of the require appraisals. The items I listed actually DISPLAY on the final appraisal report. Well, not the employment rate, not the minimum wage. And that was my point minimum wage page in that state has no bearing on home prices. and, even I granted it was, it would be so far down the list to have no effect.
> A house across the street that is 'run down' will have an effect. The wage tacobell pays brand new employees, doesn't.
> ...


Wages definitely effect prices both directly and indirectly. There's a lot of wood in a house. Someone was paid to chop the tree. Someone was paid to drive the logs to the mill. The mill worker was paid to size the lumber. The tires on the truck were made by someone. The truck was made by a paid worker. The gloves the worker wore were made by a paid worker. The cloth of the gloves were grown, harvested, and milled by someone. Wages matter!!!

Those are examples of indirect wages effecting costs and therefore, prices. If a city's predominant wage is below the state's predominant wage, the city's housing will be less expensive. If the predominant buyer can't afford housing prices, the prices will drop until the property sells.

"I listed actually DISPLAY on the final appraisal report." That is incorrect. The standard form for a residential property is Fannie Mae form 1004. There is nothing for schools or crime rates. There is an area for market conditions and employment rate is a market condition.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

My first car I found in the High desert of Central Oregon. It cost me some elbow grease, a six pack of beer for my cousin who helped me get it going and the engine / fan belt to run it. The oil and grease were all pirated from John's Shop. It was a 1952 Willie's jeep that no ne could say how it got there. A great ride for a 12 yo. When I was 14 I bought a 74 F-150 that I crashed off a cliff.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

bsliv said:


> Wages definitely effect prices both directly and indirectly


I think the goal posts weren't just moved, they were REMOVED from the field of play. :laugh:

My point, only point, minimum wage has no effect on home appraisals or what a home lists and sells for. None at all. Zip. Zero. nada.

And if there is an effect there is no article, quote or book that says so.

Nuff said?¿? Moving (see what I did there?) on.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

SHalester said:


> I think the goal posts weren't just moved, they were REMOVED from the field of play. :laugh:
> 
> My point, only point, minimum wage has no effect on home appraisals or what a home lists and sells for. None at all. Zip. Zero. nada.
> 
> ...


My point, which you replied to, was that eliminating minimum wages affect costs. Costs effect prices. If it costs less to build a house, housing prices will decrease. Not hard to understand.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

ColdRider said:


> Unintended consequences for sure. It creates new problems for elected officials to solve. Then those solutions create more problems and they must get re-elected to solve the new problems they helped create. Cycle continues.
> 
> Loudmouths keep a job forever.
> 
> "We need rent control so I can keep buying my $5 coffees and $1200 smartphones DERP"


In the big cities, rents are progressing much faster than inflation.

In 1976 I could rent an apartment, a two bedroom in L.A. for $200 or so. I know, because I was a renter in L.A throughout the 70s decade. Today, it would be $2500. In NYC, it as about $500 -$700 ( in the Village about $400 upper west side IIRC )

Adjusting for inflation, that $200 is not $2500.

Rent control will lead to apartment shortages. I'd favor rent subsidies for low wage earners.


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## melusine3 (Jun 20, 2016)

Lissetti said:


> I would say it only benefits the casual uber driver and not the skilled ones. I drove 3 years in the Seattle area. $20 plus an hour is ok, but anything less than that is not a livable wage, once you deduct expenses.
> 
> Most drivers I know in Seattle stopped driving since the pandemic but I know a few who still do.
> 
> ...


Interesting you mention the pandemic. Has there been any data on drivers coming down with C19?



ColdRider said:


> Unintended consequences for sure. It creates new problems for elected officials to solve. Then those solutions create more problems and they must get re-elected to solve the new problems they helped create. Cycle continues.
> 
> Loudmouths keep a job forever.
> 
> ...


AND afford the napalm for their Molotov cocktails they're throwing around at night.



SHalester said:


> sorry about your cancer drug; I've not reached that stage yet. Just drugs to reduce the size of a certain organ only guys have.....
> 
> So, yes, have bought 3 homes. Refi'd one; HELOC on that same one; sold 3 homes. Very very very aware of the require appraisals. The items I listed actually DISPLAY on the final appraisal report. Well, not the employment rate, not the minimum wage. And that was my point minimum wage page in that state has no bearing on home prices. and, even I granted it was, it would be so far down the list to have no effect.
> A house across the street that is 'run down' will have an effect. The wage tacobell pays brand new employees, doesn't.
> ...


There's far more to an appraisal than just the computer! It's like Zillow, also uses the computer models of area house prices, but it can't look at comparables the way a human can. A person must inspect the property, including the surrounding neighborhood (is the neighborhood thriving or depressed, etc). Zillow will also change their estimate of a property once you've listed it at a different amount, and especially after it's sold, they'll enter the sold amount. Don't count on Zillow for an accurate estimate.



bsliv said:


> One drug I'm on costs $3200 a week.
> 
> No, but as I said before, I know how to value property. Name a national bank and chances are very good they have asked me for my *opinion *on value. I have to determine if the current supply is normal, a shortage, or a surplus. I have to estimate demand. I have to determine typical marketing time. I have to compute physical, functional, and external depreciation. I often times have to compute the value of property based on the net income it produces. I create operating income statements. About 10 years ago, my name was read in court for nearly a hundred cases as an expert in valuing real estate. It involved HOA's and super-priority liens. I have a degree in economics. I know how to value property.
> 
> ...


You can try the manufacturer of your cancer drug. Most companies have programs to help out those who can't afford medications (all medications) just look at their home page. If you need help looking this up, email me at leamca at yahoo dot com.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

melusine3 said:


> Interesting you mention the pandemic. Has there been any data on drivers coming down with C19


Not that I'm aware of. I mean I caught it but that was from my day job. A couple of Seattle drivers mentioned they thought they had it, but was unsure where they contracted it.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

melusine3 said:


> Most companies have programs to help out those who can't afford medications


Four surgeries and about 1 1/2 months in a hospital along with not being able to work for 9 months wiped me out financially. About $400k in medical bills. I had to resort to Medicaid to pay the bills but now can't net more than $16,750 per year.



melusine3 said:


> There's far more to an appraisal than just the computer!


That's for sure. I got my start with appraisers by converting offices from typewriters to pc's. Even back then people were saying Computer Valuation Models would replace appraisers. I don't see it happening anytime soon. There is almost always something atypical concerning the subject or a comparable sale. Condition, location, and views are just a few subjective variables CVM's have difficulties quantifying but can be critical to an accurate appraisal. Lenders understand this and is why they continue to hire appraisers.


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## Diamondraider (Mar 13, 2017)

Taxi2Uber said:


> LOL. No, I understand the concept.
> I was talking about the 53% margin, but I see you had total loss included.
> I'm in the 80-85%.
> 53% and I wouldn't be driving.


And how does one achieve 85% when Uber's lowest commission was 20%?

asking for my math teacher



bsliv said:


> You must consider demand for labor. The supply could skyrocket but if demand goes even higher, wages will increase.
> 
> And what wage should uneducated, unskilled, new immigrants be paid? I say only fractionally better than they were paid in the native countries. If they are willing to work for $1 an hour, fine with me.
> 
> ...


Excellent responses. One minor correction though..."under the table" jobs rarely pay less to the worker than a minimum wage position.

An employer faces a 40%-60% additional expanse above the hourly rate if they hire legally. By paying cash, they can use some of that cost to pay "cash" workers a higher rate.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Diamondraider said:


> And how does one achieve 85% when Uber's lowest commission was 20%?
> 
> asking for my math teacher


Time to get another math teacher.


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

bsliv said:


> I have stage 4 lung cancer.
> 
> Stop smoking cigarettes.


I'm sorry to hear that!
Thanks for sharing. I wish you the best. ❤
I'm working on quitting cigarettes.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> I'm sorry to hear that!
> Thanks for sharing. I wish you the best. ❤
> I'm working on quitting cigarettes.


Quitting is tough, but it is possible. I am at 12 years now this month. You have to change your habits and develop something else to do during that time. I first got a cell phone during that time I was quitting so instead of a cancer stick I played with my new phone.


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

bsliv said:


> I've been a licensed real estate appraiser for >25 years.


I really wanted to get my appraisal license and never did. One off my regrets career wise. I absolutely love the field. Took the courses but never did the hours needed for the license.

Do you do it a bit still or it's over?

In regard to real estate price, of course if build price is lowered, the selling price would be lower too. Personally I would be ok with legitimate unions representing the workers and negotiating rates rather than government setting it. But I personally wouldn't want to have no minimum wage and no union, then the 1% would exploit us, I feel.

The 15 minimum wage is too high to be National. Cost of living is half or less in many places compared to C.A. Or N.Y
But I don't think anybody should work for 1$ even if they are high schooler or uneducated no skilled.

I don't think anybody working full time should make poverty level income. It should be 1$ above the local poverty rate at least, be it Union negotiated like those 5 EU countries or government mandated.

The minimum wage has not grown with inflation in the last 30 years or so, so it's not " High". With a high minimum wage like 15 per hour for lowest living cost areas, I would agree with your view.

Im in Northern California, 15$ per hour means poverty here. Even with 15$ most fast food places can't find proper staff.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> Even with 15$ most fast food places can't find proper staff.


Sounds like there is a sufficient number of alternative jobs available to make the job market competitive. If McD's lowered their starting wage down to $12 per hour, it couldn't fill the positions. The market would force them to raise their wages until it matched the market wage.

On the other hand, if McD's had 2 job openings in Las Vegas and offered the minimum wage, they may get 50 applicants. That indicates the minimum wage is above the market wage. That will cause businesses to hire less than optimum which creates unemployment and stifles job growth.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> I don't think anybody working full time should make poverty level income. It should be 1$ above the local poverty rate at least, be it Union negotiated like those 5 EU countries or government mandated.


The federal poverty income is $12,060 per year. Working 40 hours per week, that's $5.80 per hour. While I probably wouldn't accept a job with that wage, I can envision others accepting it. For instance, a student living at home getting paid to review video games. The student would buy the games if they didn't have the job, so it saves the cost of the games. If it works for the student and it works for the student's employer, I have no right to stop them. If a retiree wants to drive strangers around town for peanuts, I have no right to stop them. If a group of employees want to organize and demand collective bargaining, I have no right to stop them.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> Took the courses but never did the hours needed for the license.


Is it too late? Most appraisers will pay an intern. I think only 1500 hours over 2 years are required. Some appraisers work as employees but I think being an independent contractor is the way to go. Accept orders when you need the money and refuse orders when too busy or too lazy. One has to be comfortable working with numbers. Appraisers don't have to have great social skills. I think the average age for an appraiser is in the mid to upper 50's. They'll be retiring soon. Some states have reduced the education requirements but other states, like Nevada, still require a college degree. If the demand for appraisal services stays consistent and the supply of appraisers goes down, fees will go up.

I'm still licensed, still pay E&O insurance and still subscribe to MLS. But I'm afraid of the virus so I refuse up to 10 assignments per week. I did a couple of drive by's at the beginning of the year and a couple of reviews in the past few months. I spend a lot more time reading forum posts than working.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

melusine3 said:


> Don't count on Zillow for an accurate estimate.


yeah, that would be quite dumb.


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## melusine3 (Jun 20, 2016)

Lissetti said:


> Not that I'm aware of. I mean I caught it but that was from my day job. A couple of Seattle drivers mentioned they thought they had it, but was unsure where they contracted it.


Interesting. Seriously, there should be HUGE numbers when you think of the type of exposure. I'm happy you're better. Aren't you the writer?



Amos69 said:


> Quitting is tough, but it is possible. I am at 12 years now this month. You have to change your habits and develop something else to do during that time. I first got a cell phone during that time I was quitting so instead of a cancer stick I played with my new phone.


I quit while working at a hospital (high stress unit). I took 2 weeks off, got enough pain pills to last me round the clock for 2 weeks and chilled. I may have used patches, starting out with the largest and tapering off by cutting them up (I had no problems doing that, although some will tell you it's inadvisable) till I finished off the box. Interesting, incredible dreams while on nicotine patches. Subsequently, I continued to have cravings, but I reminded myself that they wouldn't last but a few minutes and they did. Those started decreasing in frequency. It was kind of hard being around smokers, but I was able to resist. That was my plan, and it worked for me.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

melusine3 said:


> Interesting. Seriously, there should be HUGE numbers when you think of the type of exposure.


Yes I'm sure there were huge numbers at my job, but it was hushed up of course. It quickly became an HR and company liability issue since many employees had been complaining about the one guy "Mike" with the strange cough no one had heard before. We were told not to be paranoid, since we had not had visitors or business travelers from China since early December. Mike just had a bad flu that was going around. &#128580;

Then in the first week of March they realized they had a major problem and shut down all buildings, all campuses.



melusine3 said:


> I'm happy you're better. Aren't you the writer?


Thanks I'm doing better. Still not 100% but I'm getting there. Yes I am a writer, but since I don't drive anymore, I don't write much here these days.


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## melusine3 (Jun 20, 2016)

Oscar Levant said:


> In the big cities, rents are progressing much faster than inflation.
> 
> In 1976 I could rent an apartment, a two bedroom in L.A. for $200 or so. I know, because I was a renter in L.A throughout the 70s decade. Today, it would be $2500. In NYC, it as about $500 -$700 ( in the Village about $400 upper west side IIRC )
> 
> ...


They already have rent subsidies for low wage earners, it's handled by HUD. Section 8.



Lissetti said:


> Yes I'm sure there were huge numbers at my job, but it was hushed up of course. It quickly became an HR and company liability issue since many employees had been complaining about the one guy "Mike" with the strange cough no one had heard before. We were told not to be paranoid, since we had not had visitors or business travelers from China since early December. Mike just had a bad flu that was going around. &#128580;
> 
> Then in the first week of March they realized they had a major problem and shut down all buildings, all campuses.
> 
> Thanks I'm doing better. Still not 100% but I'm getting there. Yes I am a writer, but since I don't drive anymore, I don't write much here these days.


Well, you must write somewhere! email me at [email protected] and let me know if you have a blog etc. I rarely come back here since I no longer drive, but I like to catch up on the old timers I remember from those days (2016, 2017 lol)



SHalester said:


> I think the goal posts weren't just moved, they were REMOVED from the field of play. :laugh:
> 
> My point, only point, minimum wage has no effect on home appraisals or what a home lists and sells for. None at all. Zip. Zero. nada.
> 
> ...


What has been happening in my home town is due to the low interest rates, EVERYONE is buying. Houses are going for well over asking, $10-20,000 over and getting multiple offers.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

melusine3 said:


> They already have rent subsidies for low wage earners, it's handled by HUD. Section 8.
> 
> 
> Well, you must write somewhere! email me at [email protected] and let me know if you have a blog etc. I rarely come back here since I no longer drive, but I like to catch up on the old timers I remember from those days (2016, 2017 lol)
> ...


You should experience the market here in Seattle. Just throw a dart at the target price and mark it up $30,000 and let the bidding wars begin.

We is Crazy!


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## melusine3 (Jun 20, 2016)

bsliv said:


> Four surgeries and about 1 1/2 months in a hospital along with not being able to work for 9 months wiped me out financially. About $400k in medical bills. I had to resort to Medicaid to pay the bills but now can't net more than $16,750 per year.
> 
> That's for sure. I got my start with appraisers by converting offices from typewriters to pc's. Even back then people were saying Computer Valuation Models would replace appraisers. I don't see it happening anytime soon. There is almost always something atypical concerning the subject or a comparable sale. Condition, location, and views are just a few subjective variables CVM's have difficulties quantifying but can be critical to an accurate appraisal. Lenders understand this and is why they continue to hire appraisers.


There's no way computers can assess a house interior, nor can it evaluate whether or not the neighborhood is thriving. I don't appraise, but I do do comps for homes and I look at each one to make sure it's close to the home I'm selling. A computer can't make that type of distinction. You can drop off of medicaid once you're healthy again, get back to work.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

melusine3 said:


> You can drop off of medicaid once you're healthy again, get back to work.


Even working full time, I don't know if I could afford to drop medicaid. Immunotherapy is $9500 every 3 weeks. A brain MRI every 6 months is $5000. A chest PET/CT scan is $5000 every 6 months. Those 3 expenses come to $185,000 per year. One week last month I had 5 doctors appointments (primary care physician, oncologist, pulminolgist, cardiologist, neurologist, and surgeon). They run $135 to $200 each. I have 5 prescriptions that aren't real cheap. My oncologist says if I remain cancer free for 10 years, I can consider I beat cancer. Its been 14 months, so I have 8+ years of these expenses. An appraiser can make $150 K/yr working full time. The math says I'm a pauper for the next 8 years. The statistics say I won't make 5 years. The most important thing I can say is *STOP SMOKING CIGARETTES*. I smoked over a pack a day for 35 years and went cold turkey over a year ago when I was diagnosed. It can be done.

The second most important thing I can add to this forum is my experience in economics. A free market works to create the maximum benefit to the economy and those participating in the market. The more government regulation and taxes, the less free the market. But I understand regulation and taxes are required, to a certain degree. To word it a different way, I understand its necessary to hamper the economy in order to benefit a few. The argument is: how much hampering vs. how much benefit to how few individuals.

To make this post applicable to this thread, Seattle has increased unemployment, increased cost to riders, and increased inflation (which hurts low income workers more than high income workers). The question is whether the damage to the economy is less than the benefit to the individuals. Since Seattle's prevailing wage is above the minimum wage, the damage is little. The benefit is yet to be determined. Drivers in the Seattle market should let us know how its working. Is it better to have slightly fewer pax but slightly higher fare per pax?

Despite how its working in Seattle, other market shouldn't necessarily follow its lead. Seattle has a high cost of living, high predominant hourly wage, and relatively low unemployment.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

melusine3 said:


> They already have rent subsidies for low wage earners, it's handled by HUD. Section 8.


Most of the section 8s were down in the 'hood somewhere.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Oscar Levant said:


> Most of the section 8s were down in the 'hood somewhere.


Heres a point of interest. Most of those Ghetto / Hood buildings were built as public low income housing after the great depression. Look what they turned into.

Building MORE low income housing modeled after the super cheap Community block style will just lead to a replacement of the now failing structures that exist in most ghettos.

Section 8 as a model is OK as it in no way limits housing to specific region like the Ghetto. Rent subsidy programs are a better way to show and encourage lower income people that they can "Do Best" Lulls 

We do need to help people out and up but they really need to participate in the process. Rent subsidies can help people find better situations and programs that push them forward can do exactly that. Building hulking structures to force them to congregate will only lead to future problems in the ghetto.


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## sasu66 (Sep 7, 2020)

Amos69 said:


> Building hulking structures to force them to congregate will only lead to future problems in the ghetto.


 Build housing in small towns and rural areas, where there's space to breath. Bring jobs back from overseas.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

sasu66 said:


> Build housing in small towns and rural areas, where there's space to breath. Bring jobs back from overseas.


Then you have small towns urbanizing and a never ending urban sprawl while the older inner city collaspes further into disrepair before getting leveled into a new Blurnsball stadium or shopping mall....


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Then you have small towns urbanizing and a never ending urban sprawl while the older inner city collaspes further into disrepair before getting leveled into a new Blurnsball stadium or shopping mall....


Have you looked around? That is called gentrification. That is where we already are. Everything changes, except often times gubermintal response. We have to stop making the same mistakes we made in the 50's and 60's etc.

Here in the city of Seattle they spent over $ 150,000,000 on the homeless situation in 2019 with no measurable results. This is not including all the subsidized housing and other programs as well as just very low income people living in the projects.

There has to be a better way. Whenever you group people together you tend to get groupthink and groupcommunity. If we are going to actually work on these situations we need to do different things.

We are not even talking about homelessness here. This is just subsidized housing in lieu of rent control.


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

EDUCATION.. Obama had that right. 

Education is Key to reducing poverty and crime, especially in black neighborhoods that are stuck in the never-ending circle of poverty, welfare, and crime.


I pick up hundreds of Black college students. Students from the USA, Kenya , Somalia, Ethiopia etc... All these students are working towards a goal of graduating with an advanced degree in Technology, Business, and engineering Degrees. They work at least one job and many 2.

They are generally all polite, they dress well, and no gangsta crap.


ON the other hand, I can pick up the USA hood born kids that are not going to College, their pants down to their cracks, wearing jerseys 2 sizes too big, fake jewelry, and talking like ebonics is areal thing. Welfare Moma with 3 kids in tow and thinking the best way to get a raise is to have another kid.


It isn't that they are bad people, it's that they grew up in an environment that thinks it's OK to live that way. You can take those same kids give them a real education and they grow up respectful and hardworking and living with a purpose.


Free College? Maybe subsidized/investments by Businesses? Google needs technology graduates and then invests in providing funding for those that contract to work for Google for say the first 3 years after college ..then free to work forever they want type of thing?


I don't know, what I do know is that education does work at lifting people out of poverty and the behaviors that go with it


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

And in other minimum wage news...

*Geneva in Switzerland is introducing a minimum wage of $25 an hour, the highest in the world*

https://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-geneva-introduce-minimum-wage-highest-in-world-2020-10


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Amos69 said:


> Have you looked around? That is called gentrification.


First I described the creation of the suburbs and the growth of new urban areas from small towns that used to just be bedroom communities than I described gentrification, pretty much a textbook example, and I threw in a Futurama reference laughs.

my point is that moving out of the city into a cheaper suburb is a never ending cycle that eventually leads to urban sprawl and an inevitible cycle of gentrification.

My prediction on the future is that lower income folks are going to live in the suburbs that us white kids grew up in and the rich folks are going to live in the city. As more and more inner city communities are wiped off the map and gentrified into fancy high rises eventually the rich folks will move back downtown.

Their old McMansions will be split into multi-unit housing.

Then public transportation will actually receive good funding and only poor people will own their own cars...

the rich folks will take ubers and the bus because it's cool.....


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

Amos69 said:


> Heres a point of interest. Most of those Ghetto / Hood buildings were built as public low income housing after the great depression. Look what they turned into.
> 
> Building MORE low income housing modeled after the super cheap Community block style will just lead to a replacement of the now failing structures that exist in most ghettos.
> 
> ...


Why not quansot huts, that was done way back when with some success for the military, and they are cheap, eh?
I lived in one, as a child,as the rent was cheap--my dad had to sell his fishing boat, so he was looking for a job, and the area wasn't that bad at all, just outside of the military base in Port Hueneme, California.


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## Free willy (Oct 11, 2020)

bsliv said:


> A brain MRI every 6 months is $5000. A chest PET/CT scan is $5000 every 6 months. Those 3 expenses come to $185,000 per year.


Our medical imaging system is about to change drastically - the cost of these scans we need to get done will be reduced to just a few hundred dollars each and the results will be clearer & obtained in minutes. Another year or two tops.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Free willy said:


> Another year or two tops.


It sounds too good to be true. But it also sounds exciting. The cost savings will be outstanding. The life savings will be incalculable.


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## Free willy (Oct 11, 2020)

bsliv said:


> It sounds too good to be true. But it also sounds exciting. The cost savings will be outstanding. The life savings will be incalculable.


Yes, for the consumer but this is where hospitals make most of their profits, so it will be challenging for them. Will some merge, close? I really don't care as I too have to lay down in one of those scanners every 6 months (40 years of smoking). It would be great to be able to run my own scan from the comfort of my home.


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## dondarko (Apr 1, 2020)

It is always a trade off. It will destroy driver jobs and the cheapskates will have to pay more.


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