# Idea for what happened twice tonight



## ptuberx (Jun 28, 2016)

I had a fare earlier that requested two cars, since they had 8 people in their party and both of us showed up at the same time. My car is rated at 4, so was the other. They were all great passengers, it was a long surge ride, and a nice tip at the end.

Later in the night, I had two pickups that were parties of 5. Now, the first pickup went fine, but the second pickup, well the lady sat in front, while the four NFL-sized guys sat in the back seat. It was a challenge for them to even get the door closed. This was also a 3x surge, so denying or modifying the fare seemed a bit trivial as long as they were good pax, and it was a short drive. However, I really don't want to pick up more than 4 at a time because my vehicle can handle it, but I don't have enough belts in the back for 4. It's a 2008 Crown Vic Police Interceptor. Room, yes. Bus, no.

I think it would be a good idea in the app if they required users to input how many pax there will be. That way the app can either discriminate on its own based on our vehicles, or display that number to us when the request comes in. It would make things a little easier to judge before picking up large groups and not knowing if they can physically fit in the vehicle. Just a thought...


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## KiaScott (Dec 10, 2015)

Pax lie. It says right there in the app that UberX is 4 passengers max. Don't take more than that under any circumstances. It is illegal, and you won't be covered by insurance if something happens.


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## Ben105 (Feb 27, 2016)

Realityshark said:


> I wont let more than 3 in my car. If they have more than 3, I hit no show and get paid as I drive away.


You can get in trouble for that. You are required to have 4 seat belts available for pax at all times. And I would NEVER take more pax than there were seat belts. Forget about the law. Recently, there have been many mishaps where pax were ejected from the vehicle and died. Don't want that on my conscience.


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## ptuberx (Jun 28, 2016)

Ben105 said:


> You can get in trouble for that. You are required to have 4 seat belts available for pax at all times. And I would NEVER take more pax than there were seat belts. Forget about the law. Recently, there have been many mishaps where pax were ejected from the vehicle and died. Don't want that on my conscience.


Well that is kind of the reason I posted... I made a judgment call based on the fact that I was a bit undecided for two reasons: Uber states that my vehicle capacity is 4 plus me, which is a comfortable number. Considering I drive a Crown Vic, I have about the widest rear bench seat you can get in a car. But +1 is too much. Now, under state laws here, rear-seat passengers are only required to be belted if under the age of 16. All of my pax were above this... Seems like a grey area, although back to my original point, I am not comfortable with more than 3 in the back regardless. I agree with what was already said, some may lie just to take advantage of a trip (especially while not surging).


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## Ben105 (Feb 27, 2016)

ptuberx said:


> Well that is kind of the reason I posted... I made a judgment call based on the fact that I was a bit undecided for two reasons: Uber states that my vehicle capacity is 4 plus me, which is a comfortable number. Considering I drive a Crown Vic, I have about the widest rear bench seat you can get in a car. But +1 is too much. Now, under state laws here, rear-seat passengers are only required to be belted if under the age of 16. All of my pax were above this... Seems like a grey area, although back to my original point, I am not comfortable with more than 3 in the back regardless. I agree with what was already said, some may lie just to take advantage of a trip (especially while not surging).


Although the law may allow people over the age of 16 NOT to wear a seatbelt, it is against federal law (and I would also think state laws) to put more people in the car than it was designed to hold. How many is it designed to hold? The same number as seat belts. Plus, usually on the driver's side inside rim of the door, there is a max weight limit and max pax limit printed on the car. I just rented an economy car (it was just me and just needed it to drive 1 hour each way from hotel to airport) and they gave me a Chevy Spark. Dang was it small. It technically holds 4 people (4 seat belts and max pax count says 4 pax), but it also says that max weight cargo + pax is 661 lbs. If you have 4 200lb people (average weight for a full-grown, 6ft man), you've exceed the weight limit and are driving illegally and that's with no cargo. LOL


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## Fauxknight (Aug 12, 2014)

Even at surge I deny groups of more than 4. A few bucks isn't worth the risk.


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## Ben105 (Feb 27, 2016)

Fauxknight said:


> Even at surge I deny groups of more than 4. A few bucks isn't worth the risk.


Exactly.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Ben105 said:


> Exactly.


3 and 4x surge can be more than a few bucks.Even If you do this a few times a year reality is there's a slim chance that you'll get into an accident, unless you just can't drive. I mean if you went a whole year already with no accidents, why you think just because it's 5 people something is going to happen.?again, I'd only do it in rare high surge situations, which hasn't occurred to me in over a year now


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## Ben105 (Feb 27, 2016)

Sorry, no amount of money, surge or no surge, is worth a human life. The whole idea is that an accident IS an accident. No plans for them, no one expects them, but they happen any way. And since January, we've had two major cases (made national news) and quite a few local instances of people being thrown from vehicles. Not worth it.

Plus, if you get pulled over, in CA it can be a reckless driving ticket (one of the worst you can get).


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Ben105 said:


> Sorry, no amount of money, surge or no surge, is worth a human life. The whole idea is that an accident IS an accident. No plans for them, no one expects them, but they happen any way. And since January, we've had two major cases (made national news) and quite a few local instances of people being thrown from vehicles. Not worth it.
> 
> Plus, if you get pulled over, in CA it can be a reckless driving ticket (one of the worst you can get).


Well of course it can happen.
Just like you can pick up only 1 pax when your car seats 4 and you still get into an accident and that pax or you gets killed.
You can google that its happened around the US/world before (5 pax and accidnet) sure, but At issue is the likeihood of it ACTUALLY happening to YOU
The odds are close to winning the lottery.

Let's say you do 3 trips/year with 5 people in your car (like I said, few times a years, only at high surge)
Lets say you do 1,100 trips a year with only 1 passenger in your car.

If an accident resulting in death happens, you telling me its more likely to happen when you have 5 pax in the car?????????

Its the same scare tactic about insurance. Of course I recommend full commercial insurance or at the least hybrid. Now you of course surely can google Uber drivers in fatal accidents, but how many drivers do you now personally that got into an accident, only had personal insurance/Uber commercial, a death was involved, and they financially (or even criminally) lost it all and is in total ruins for rest of their life?

I will guess zero........ Again, the likelihood of that happening to you are slim. Unless of course you drive like a mad man and shouldn't have had a license in the first place


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> I wont let more than 3 in my car. If they have more than 3, I hit no show and get paid as I drive away.


I have to ask,what is your reasoning for the 3 person limit?


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Bart McCoy said:


> Well of course it can happen.
> Just like you can pick up only 1 pax when your car seats 4 and you still get into an accident and that pax or you gets killed.
> You can google that its happened around the US/world before (5 pax and accidnet) sure, but At issue is the likeihood of it ACTUALLY happening to YOU
> The odds are close to winning the lottery.
> ...


I have driven for 30 years and have never been in an accident where anyone was injured.

So why have insurance at all, other than a few thousand liability just to cover a fender bender and only fir the car, not the people?

I probably won't die this year either, so why have life insurance. Doubt my house will burn down...

You have some really ridiculous arguments.


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## ptuberx (Jun 28, 2016)

Bart McCoy said:


> I have to ask,what is your reasoning for the 3 person limit?


I'm curious as well. My vehicle can comfortably seat 4, and there is no "mad-man" driving going on.


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## Ben105 (Feb 27, 2016)

Bart McCoy said:


> Well of course it can happen.
> Just like you can pick up only 1 pax when your car seats 4 and you still get into an accident and that pax or you gets killed.
> You can google that its happened around the US/world before (5 pax and accidnet) sure, but At issue is the likeihood of it ACTUALLY happening to YOU
> The odds are close to winning the lottery.
> ...


Death is more likely when people are not seat-belted. In CA EVERYONE must wear a seatbelt in a private car. If they are over 16, the driver gets the ticket. If they are under 16 and traveling with parents, parent gets ticket. If they are under 16 and traveling w/o parent, driver gets ticket. Again not worth the risk. Remember also, that it's usually not YOU you have to worry about but crazy other drivers. Just the other day, riding as a pax in Lyft from airport home, saw a large pickup driving in the fast line with less than 3 feet of clearance between him and the car in front of him. He was pushing 80mph at least. He is going to kill someone.

And I don't have to google to find these "rare" accidents. There were two just in the past few months that made the news nationally. One was a Florida lady driving home from her own birthday party with 11 in a car made for 7. The baby (not sure if in child seat or not), was ejected and flew over 60 feet and landed luckily on a grassy patch with minor issues. However the other 4 extra pax were all ejected and died. She lost four of her children.

You're right, a pax can die in any accident, but is more likely when not belted and they can't belt if there aren't any belts left. If that were to happen, you could be held liable for negligent homicide and face jail time, not to mention my conscience for allowing the risk to happen in the first place.

And what are you going to say when you get a really serious ticket for driving with more pax than you're car can hold? In CA, it's a reckless driving ticket and can lead to license-suspension plus $1000s of dollars worth of fines.

So now, that 2x or even 3x surge makes it really worthwhile. $1.50 or even $2.25/mile (at least in my region) is definitely not worth the fine or the possibility of an accident or the suspension of my license.


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## Ben105 (Feb 27, 2016)

Realityshark said:


> Four is too many. Four people usually means bar hopping and I don't need to turn my car into a party bus. Four hot girls.....that could be the exception.


If a pax reports you for not transporting 4 pax, you can get deactivated. Do it at your own risk. And I've had plenty of 4 pax that are not bar-hopping. Plus you can have 3 or even two who are bar-hopping and trying to make your car party central. It doesn't just happen at the magic number of 4.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Ben105 said:


> You're right, a pax can die in any accident, but is more likely when not belted and they can't belt if there aren't any belts left. If that were to happen, you could be held liable for negligent homicide and face jail time, not to mention my conscience for allowing the risk to happen in the first place.
> .


j

So you still saying you're someone is more likely to die in one of those 3 incidents of carrying 5 people unbelted, instead of dying one of 1,000 times you transport a single pax? seriously? Because that's my point. Im not debating that you shouldn't drive 5 people or that people are more likely to die with no seatbelt on. Again, my point is, what are the chances of it actually happening to any one of us on this forum?


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## Ben105 (Feb 27, 2016)

Bart McCoy said:


> j
> 
> So you still saying you're someone is more likely to die in one of those 3 incidents of carrying 5 people unbelted, instead of dying one of 1,000 times you transport a single pax? seriously? Because that's my point. Im not debating that you shouldn't drive 5 people or that people are more likely to die with no seatbelt on. Again, my point is, what are the chances of it actually happening to any one of us on this forum?


What I'm saying is not that. What I'm saying is that if someone dies while belted in, within the legal limits of the car, while driving safely, and I'm in a fatal, not-my-fault accident, I'm going to feel bad, but my conscience is clear. We were doing everything we were supposed to do. If someone dies in a car where they're not wearing their seatbelt because they don't or because there isn't one left for them and I am aware of that, whether or not the accident is my fault or not, I'm guilty of negligent homicide and could face jail time, not to mention my conscience. It's one thing if someone dies while in a seat belt, a whole other thing if they die without one. That's the point I'm trying to make and you're missing. 

One is a total accident, unfortunate, but an accident. The other is a form of murder with serious jail time attached. Is that clear?


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Ben105 said:


> What I'm saying is not that. What I'm saying is that if someone dies while belted in, within the legal limits of the car, while driving safely, and I'm in a fatal, not-my-fault accident, I'm going to feel bad, but my conscience is clear. We were doing everything we were supposed to do. If someone dies in a car where they're not wearing their seatbelt because they don't or because there isn't one left for them and I am aware of that, whether or not the accident is my fault or not, I'm guilty of negligent homicide and could face jail time, not to mention my conscience. It's one thing if someone dies while in a seat belt, a whole other thing if they die without one. That's the point I'm trying to make and you're missing.
> 
> One is a total accident, unfortunate, but an accident. The other is a form of murder with serious jail time attached. Is that clear?


no, because you totally dodged my question again

*******************************************************************************************
"Let's say you do 3 trips/year with 5 people in your car (like I said, few times a years, only at high surge)
Lets say you do 1,100 trips a year with only 1 passenger in your car.

If an accident resulting in death happens, you telling me its more likely to happen when you have 5 pax in the car?????????"
*****************************************************************************************************************************


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## Ben105 (Feb 27, 2016)

I never said nor implied that it was more likely to have an accident because you have more people in your car. I did say and it's scientific fact (hence seatbelt laws) that those not wearing a seatbelt (either they chose to not wear one or one wasn't available to them) are more likely to die in a car accident than if they were wearing a seatbelt. There are certain accidents where the seatbelt will not have any effect and death will result either way, but it is more likely that someone will die not wearing one than wearing one. Many people have died in a car accident that was survivable because they were not wearing a seatbelt.

When I was in my 20s, I had a 20 yo die in my arms. He was drinking, driving his Mercedes SUV drunk w/o a seatbelt very fast in a curvy 15mph street. He flipped his Mercedes but was ejected from the car because of no seatbelt. If he would have worn it, he'd be alive today. The cabin was not compromised at all, it was just upside down.


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

Ben105 said:


> If a pax reports you for not transporting 4 pax, you can get deactivated.


You are assuming that I care if I get deactivated from the stupidest job on the planet.


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