# To ALL Floridians!



## Rickos69 (Nov 8, 2018)

Our prayers are with you. STAY SAFE!!


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## Uberdriver2710 (Jul 15, 2015)

Rickos69 said:


> Our prayers are with you. STAY SAFE!!


That means no puddle jumping, during a hurricane. 🙂


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## FL_Steve (Dec 17, 2021)

First hurricane as a driver and I'm wondering if UE and DD will be open. Since I know how much they care about their drivers I'm assuming they will be.


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## Rickos69 (Nov 8, 2018)

FL_Steve said:


> First hurricane as a driver and I'm wondering if UE and DD will be open. Since I know how much they care about their drivers I'm assuming they will be.


I may be wrong, but it seems to me last time in Texas, they shut down for several days. Before and after.
Why don't you check to see if they are letting you schedule?


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

This is where being a private taxi comes in handy. I probably given 35-40 of my business cards out today alone. If it shuts down I'm still running.


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## Rickos69 (Nov 8, 2018)

W00dbutcher said:


> This is where being a private taxi comes in handy. I probably given 35-40 of my business cards out today alone. If it shuts down I'm still running.


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## SinTaxERROR (Jul 23, 2019)

I like watching the newscasters that stand right at the edge of the foaming waves not realizing that they are actually standing in untreated sewer water that has been released… lol


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## Toocutetofail (Sep 14, 2018)

Hope all the baby snatching alligators die!


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## Gnash (Dec 28, 2016)

FL_Steve said:


> First hurricane as a driver and I'm wondering if UE and DD will be open. Since I know how much they care about their drivers I'm assuming they will be.


You'd have to be a real psycho to order delivery! Someone will try though! They do it here in the worst ice storms and blizzards. Stay safe!


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

We will power thru…you know, for the community.


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## nosurgenodrive (May 13, 2019)

My guess is that the bonuses will still suck, even during a hurricane.


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## Rickos69 (Nov 8, 2018)

Sent to Dashers in Orlando.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Good thing I got deactivated from DD just in time. I know they are saving up last week's $2 orders as a special punishment for the drivers trying to make money and pay bills during a special weather event.


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## Uberdriver2710 (Jul 15, 2015)

nosurgenodrive said:


> My guess is that the bonuses will still suck, even during a hurricane.


2 dollar offers during the apocalypse, for sure!


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## Paul Vincent (Jan 15, 2016)

A select few of you Floridians will get a free plane ride via the governor to Amityville, Cape Cod or the Hamptons


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Gnash said:


> You'd have to be a real psycho to order delivery! Someone will try though! They do it here in the worst ice storms and blizzards. Stay safe!


I love blizzards. I drive in any weather except freezing rain. Tips are great in bad weather.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Atavar said:


> I love blizzards. I drive in any weather except freezing rain. Tips are great in bad weather.


Yep, blizzards are the best $ days.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Invisible said:


> Yep, blizzards are the best $ days.


Blizzak tires pay for themselves up here. There are a lot of days in the winter I could not drive without them. 
I drive an Odyssey and with the Blizzaks I can push heavy snow with the front bumper and am confident I can back out of anything I drive in to.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Atavar said:


> Blizzak tires pay for themselves up here. There are a lot of days in the winter I could not drive without them.
> I drive an Odyssey and with the Blizzaks I can push heavy snow with the front bumper and am confident I can back out of anything I drive in to.


Yes, tires do matter. I have an AWD SUV, which is awesome in snow. I’d see tons of people getting stuck, but mine didn’t.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Invisible said:


> Yes, tires do matter. I have an AWD SUV, which is awesome in snow. I’d see tons of people getting stuck, but mine didn’t.


Put Blizzaks on that SUV and you will be a tank.
I’m not kidding. The performance on ice is awe inspiring. The difference in snow is hard to believe it’s so good.


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## FL_Steve (Dec 17, 2021)

Rickos69 said:


> Why don't you check to see if they are letting you schedule?


Door Trash deactivated me, but it looks like GH still has blocks including tomorrow morning and night. And UE seems to be open for business too. I'm in Orlando, so we won't be feeling it until tomorrow. I might try a few deliveries tonite to see if people are more generous than usual.


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## Uberdriver2710 (Jul 15, 2015)

Atavar said:


> I love blizzards. I drive in any weather except freezing rain. Tips are great in bad weather.


I love the super cold days here.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Atavar said:


> Put Blizzaks on that SUV and you will be a tank.
> I’m not kidding. The performance on ice is awe inspiring. The difference in snow is hard to believe it’s so good.


Maybe next year. I recently got all new tires, all season. One bad thing w/ AWD, you have to put all new tires on at sane time. My job will let me wfh on bad snow days, so don’t have to travel on those days.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Invisible said:


> Maybe next year. I recently got all new tires, all season. One bad thing w/ AWD, you have to put all new tires on at sane time. My job will let me wfh on bad snow days, so don’t have to travel on those days.


That would be a sales pitch.

Awd has to have the same size tires.

I'm pretty sure mine has always had 4 different tires, and it has 400k miles.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Invisible said:


> Maybe next year. I recently got all new tires, all season. One bad thing w/ AWD, you have to put all new tires on at sane time. My job will let me wfh on bad snow days, so don’t have to travel on those days.


Get dedicated wheels for the Blizzaks. It will double the life of your all seasons. I got a package at the dealership for $1100 OTD for four blizzaks, new wheels and sensors mounted and balanced and installed. I’m on my third and probably last winter before I need to replace the blizzaks. With the snow tires on their own wheels swapping them in the driveway is simple. No mounting fees until you need to replace a set
‘By putting winter tires on you aren’t spending any more money, just extending the life of both sets of tires. I anticipate going four or five seasons from my summer tires. .


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

jaxbeachrides said:


> That would be a sales pitch.
> 
> Awd has to have the same size tires.
> 
> I'm pretty sure mine has always had 4 different tires, and it has 400k miles.


A tire with 30,000 miles on it is not the same diameter as a new tire.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Atavar said:


> A tire with 30,000 miles on it is not the same diameter as a new tire.


Awd and 4wd are not the same thing.

I have an awd with a 4wd button on the dash.

Awd applies a torque split. 60-70% power to one axle, 30-40% to the other axle.

The 4wd feature locks the transfer case, and sometimes differentials as well. This is not even a scenario you can use on dry pavement with matching tires.

In tire stores and other shops, employees will say anything to increase the value of a sale because their entire business model is based on upselling the consumer.


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## F30 LOLZ (Nov 10, 2021)

Prayers to all the Florida Men in here but thank God I won’t arrive for another two weeks. Until then, please don’t hog all the milk, break and eggs as some of us want to have French toast when there isn’t a hurricane.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

No. We just don't have any bottled water.

There will be 20 inches of rain, people are buying water.

Like the pandemic when everyone had to buy 50 rolls of toilet paper. As if they would never get to wipe their ass again.


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## Cerebral (5 mo ago)

Rickos69 said:


> Our prayers are with you. STAY SAFE!!


Chances are Miss Florida DeSantis will book one-way ticket for all Floridians to Martha’s Vineyard.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

How are things going down there? I would like to hear personal anecdotes and see photos.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

jaxbeachrides said:


> Awd and 4wd are not the same thing.
> 
> I have an awd with a 4wd button on the dash.
> 
> ...


If you run different diameter tires on the same axle you are stressing the diff. Even if it is a limited slip.
Did you ever notice a tire chirping or a loping sensation when turning tightly on pavement? That comes from the outside tire on an axle trying to turn more rpm’s than the inside tire. The same effect happens when one tire is more worn than the other tire. Typically the result is that the taller tire wears more quickly until it matches the diameter of the shorter tire.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

We're talking about the same size tire.

What was originally said is that you have to buy all 4 tires at the same time, which is not true for an average vehicle.

I'd been buying tires one at a time with no issues.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Atavar said:


> If you run different diameter tires on the same axle you are stressing the diff. Even if it is a limited slip.
> Did you ever notice a tire chirping or a loping sensation when turning tightly on pavement? That comes from the outside tire on an axle trying to turn more rpm’s than the inside tire. The same effect happens when one tire is more worn than the other tire. Typically the result is that the taller tire wears more quickly until it matches the diameter of the shorter tire.


Awd is not limited slip.

Typically an awd vehicle is just a front drive platform with 30% power directed to the rear wheels.

If I activate the 4wd button on the dash, only then is the power equally distributed.

Limited slip was a feature on rear wheel drive cars that had a lot of power but little traction.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

jaxbeachrides said:


> We're talking about the same size tire.
> 
> What was originally said is that you have to buy all 4 tires at the same time, which is not true for an average vehicle.
> 
> I'd been buying tires one at a time with no issues.


No, if you put on a newer tire it will have a diameter larger than an older tire. When the tread wears the diameter gets smaller. Depending on the tread that could be over a half inch difference. 

A truer recommendation would be to replace tire in pairs for an axle. Rotate the best tire you take off to the spare.

A common recommendation is to make sure all tire diameters are within 3% 

Changing tire diameters by 1/2" will change the speedometer reading by about 2mph. Smaller diameter tires have to spin faster. As you drive and your tires wear the actual Speed you are traveling (for a given speedometer reading) will get lower.
I am glad you haven’t had any noticeable problems. More power to you. 
What you are probably not noticing with mismatched tires on your AWD is that the tires are wearing at an accelerated rate.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

jaxbeachrides said:


> Awd is not limited slip.
> 
> Typically an awd vehicle is just a front drive platform with 30% power directed to the rear wheels.
> 
> ...


AWD is absolutely limited slip, or you would not be able to turn a corner without scrubbing off a lot of rubber.
If you are on ice and give it some gas if more than one tire spins it is a limited slip diff.

I’m not talking about front and back, I’m talking about tires on the same axle. If tires are mismatched front and rear then what you are stressing is the transfer case.

This is why when you rotate tires on an AWD you just swap front to back and don’t do the Z-pattern rotation like you would use on a front or rear wheel drive car. 
Anecdote — A lot of car enthusiasts suggest not rotating the tires on the back of a front wheel drive car at all. They are just trailing wheels with only 10-15% braking force and should last the life of the car. They say just replace front tires in pairs as needed Unless the rear gets damaged.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

I never said one at a time is recommended.

I said I get away with one at a time because the vehicle had 400,000 miles.

What was originally said was that tires must be purchased in sets of 4.

I stated this is not true.

We don't need to get into captain obvious statements about worn tires being smaller and turning faster.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Atavar said:


> AWD is absolutely limited slip, or you would not be able to turn a corner without scrubbing off a lot of rubber.
> If you are on ice and give it some gas if more than one tire spins it is a limited slip diff.
> 
> I’m not talking about front and back, I’m talking about tires on the same axle. If tires are mismatched front and rear then what you are stressing is the transfer case.


It is not. Awd is a loose translation of 4wd.

Awd is a front drive transaxle based on a sideways mounted engine. The primary torque is based to the front drive wheels with no preference on which side.

Then a tiny driveshaft sends 30% or so power to the rear wheels. This helps a little in poor traction scenarios, but is in no way a true 4wd setup.

I do have a 4wd lockup but this is an exception not a rule.

Awd does not have a transfer case.

4wd has a transfer case.

Awd is not 4wd.

Additionally, awd is not to be confused with full time 4wd. A Subaru for example, is awd. A Ford truck or suv may have full time 4wd.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

How do you get power to the rear wheels of an AWD without a transfer case? It may be built in to the transmission but it’s there. The drive shaft has to get power from something. 
Go to your local parking lot and turn the steering wheel all the way to one side and drive in a tight circle. You will most likely hear or feel the outside wheel skipping as it tries to roll at the same rpm as the inside wheel. The outside wheel is traveling a much longer distance than the inside wheel. This is exaggerated if you push the 4wd button.
I never said AWD=4WD


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

You need a little more education.

I have 30 years in the car business. Worked at Ford plants, GM world headquarters and proving grounds.

I own a dealership with a state certified repair shop.

It's not my passion anymore, but I know a LITTLE.


Engines that are mounted tranversely do not have transfer cases. They have transaxle. This is a front drive transmission.

If you have a front drive transmission with awd, you have an output shaft that goes to a tiny rear drive unit.

Only if you have a 4 wheel drive do you have a transfer case.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Engines that are mounted transversely don’t have a transfer case they actually have what is called a PTU (power transfer unit) that is basically a fancy computer controlled transfer case. If it makes you feel happier call it a PTU. 
A transaxle is what you find on transverse engine front wheel drives. It splits the power between the right and left wheels. That has nothing to do with the rear wheels.

You may want to educate yourself.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

An awd transaxle is just a revision to the original design of the vehicle.

It sounds like you're just googling info but have never actually worked on a vehicle professionally.

I maintained my awd up to 400k. I know how it works.

If your worn tires are throwing off your awd system it sounds like the operator. Not the tires.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Lol. Look it up. The transaxle powers the front wheels. The PTU powers the rear wheels. They may be in the same case but they are separate functions. 
Anyway, let’s not hijack this Florida thread any more. If you would like to continue start a new thread.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

I don't need to look it up son. But good luck explaining those Google search results to anyone else.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

jaxbeachrides said:


> I don't need to look it up son. But good luck explaining those Google search results to anyone else.


You obviously do need to look it up, dad. You’re wrong on this one. a transaxle without a PTU only has two outputs. I have rebuilt many.

I will bet that if you look up the part numbers for a transaxle and a PTU for your SUV you will find they are different assemblies.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

That makes no sense. 

Now you're saying you're a transmission repair expert.

Yet you didn't know an awd doesn't have a transfer case.

But it's a ptu.

Please.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

so I called a PTU a transfer case. Big whoop. The difference between a transfer case and a PTU is that the PTU has a 90° change in the power output direction while the Transfer case is inline.
Besides, you are the "expert" that thought the transaxle connected to the rear wheels. ROFL.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

I didn't say anything about being a transmission expert.

After a dozen or so posts now you're saying you rebuild transmissions. Which is a complete and total specialty field.

Uh yeah. It just sounds like you have exactly 2 people posting on your account.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Umm, you’re the one that said you were an expert and had done this professionally for decades and knew what he was talking about. I’m done. Bye. Iggy.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Of course. I'm a transaxle repair specialist. But it's not a transfer case. It's a ptu. Because that's the same thing.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

jaxbeachrides said:


> That would be a sales pitch.
> 
> Awd has to have the same size tires.
> 
> I'm pretty sure mine has always had 4 different tires, and it has 400k miles.


No it’s not a sales pitch. I’ve heard that from various mechanics, some who I know personally. With different tires and threads on an AWD, it can damage your drive train. Considering my Subaru parts are just expensive as BMW parts, I’m not taking chances. Plus it’s in my vehicle manual.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Your Subaru engine will fall apart long before your awd does.

But then again, I don't know anything.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

How can we get this thread back on track talking about Florida? I feel bad that I took part in this hijacking.
I would love to see firsthand reports of the Florida storm. I am curious about long evacuation rides and delivery demand during the storm.
I know if I were in that part of the world right now I would be offering rides with my trailer anyplace in the country for $5/mile plus expenses. 
Please Floridians, first be safe! Don’t risk your life to bring someone a cheeseburger for a $4 tip!


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Yeah. Patronize us. It's ok.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Sorry Jax. You’re on iggy.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

I'm just busy working on my ptu's. 

Bald tires wore em out.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Stay safe Floridians.


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## harcouber (Dec 4, 2017)

For years I drove a 2WD (rear wheel drive) SUV (full size Chevy Blazer) in all kinds of snow .... even a blizzard or two on good all season tires without issue.

It's all about knowing how to drive on snow, knowing the capabilities of your vehicle and how to exploit them.

I gave a guy a ride home to his house during a blizzard .... when we got there he said " must be nice to have a 4X4 "
He was shocked when I chuckled and said " I wouldn't know .... this one is 2WD "

Another time I was driving a Ford Crown Victoria .... about to enter the freeway when a State Trooper stopped me at the top of the ramp, telling me the ramp was impassible and they already had a cruiser stranded about 3/4 way down off the side of the ramp. I said " are you ordering me not to go down there, or advising me ". He said at this time, just advising. So I looked down the ramp, saw the path carved by the stranded cruiser and went for it. At the bottom of the ramp before I entered the freeway, I blew my how and waved " bye bye " to that trooper.

I have some really good winter driving training in my youth .... thanks to the US Military.


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## Rickos69 (Nov 8, 2018)

Takes the advise "Stay Safe" literally!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575265917147152391


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Rickos69 said:


> Takes the advise "Stay Safe" literally!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575265917147152391


That’s so hot!


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Current storm progress in Jacksonville Florida


Meh.


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## Jumpin Jim (Mar 4, 2018)

Rickos69 said:


> Takes the advise "Stay Safe" literally!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575265917147152391


So sad she’s not getting to use if for it’s intended purpose.


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## Grubhubflub (Jun 16, 2018)

FL_Steve said:


> First hurricane as a driver and I'm wondering if UE and DD will be open. Since I know how much they care about their drivers I'm assuming they will be.


Always. There's never a hurricane in cyberspace.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

You know, it’s hard to feel sorry for Floridians when they knew before they moved/built there that there are at least 2 hurricanes every year. They don’t even build to withstand the weather they know is coming.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Atavar said:


> You know, it’s hard to feel sorry for Floridians when they knew before they moved/built there that there are at least 2 hurricanes every year. They don’t even build to withstand the weather they know is coming.


People die in cars everyday but yet you drive.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Rampage said:


> People die in cars everyday but yet you drive.


But I have not died driving a car yet. If it was guaranteed that I would be in two life threatening wrecks every year I probably wouldn’t drive. I also make sure my car is equipped with great lights, great brakes, and tires appropriate for the season.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Atavar said:


> You know, it’s hard to feel sorry for Floridians when they knew before they moved/built there that there are at least 2 hurricanes every year. They don’t even build to withstand the weather they know is coming.


Thats not true. Florida building code has been upgraded to withstand category 5 hurricanes for over 15 years.

You can get floods almost anywhere. Doesn't matter what state you build in if your house washes away.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Atavar said:


> But I have not died driving a car yet. If it was guaranteed that I would be in two life threatening wrecks every year I probably wouldn’t drive. I also make sure my car is equipped with great lights, great brakes, and tires appropriate for the season.


You might want to research your chances of being in a serious crash.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Hasn’t happened yet. I also have great insurance to cover a crash. If I get in a crash I don’t get disaster money from your taxes.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Atavar said:


> Hasn’t happened yet. I also have great insurance to cover a crash. If I get in a crash I don’t get disaster money from your taxes.


I don’t either asshole. I live a 100 year old house in FL by the St John’s river. Still standing and I have my own insurance.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Atavar said:


> Hasn’t happened yet. I also have great insurance to cover a crash. If I get in a crash I don’t get disaster money from your taxes.


Not that it's relevant, but a crash is not a fema disaster.

Most people don't get hardly anything at all from fema once they see all the fine print for a small payment.

Disaster money covers things like wildfires, floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, to name a few.

It's all subsidized either way. People in high risk areas pay huge insurance premiums even when no disaster occurs and no claims are made or collected.

The government mainly steps in as more as a humanitarian effort. As in if your crash snowballs into a 200 vehicle pileup, your awesome insurance can not compensate everyone.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Atavar said:


> Hasn’t happened yet. I also have great insurance to cover a crash. If I get in a crash I don’t get disaster money from your taxes.


And if you are involved in a bad crash, you could suffer brain damage, become a paraplegic or be dead. Some things you can’t anticipate or prepare for.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Invisible said:


> And if you are involved in a bad crash, you could suffer brain damage, become a paraplegic or be dead. Some things you can’t anticipate or prepare for.


And I didn’t build my car. And I don’t Drive on a figure 8 racetrack. The Floridians chose to live in a known hurricane zone. Why should I pay for them to rebuild?
They should require that all construction was done to withstand a hurricane and make sure the owner had adequate hurricane insurance before handing out 1¢ of disaster money.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Atavar said:


> And I didn’t build my car. And I don’t Drive on a figure 8 racetrack. The Floridians chose to live in a known hurricane zone. Why should I pay for them to rebuild?
> They should require that all construction was done to withstand a hurricane and make sure the owner had adequate hurricane insurance before handing out 1¢ of disaster money.


Natural disasters are in every state. Some states have hurricanes, others like mine have tornadoes, We’re all in this world together. Sometimes people need help. One day, you may need the help but for a different reason.

Yes I agree that all new construction should be up to code to have greater chances of withstanding a hurricane, tornado or whatever natural disaster occurs.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Atavar said:


> And I didn’t build my car. And I don’t Drive on a figure 8 racetrack. The Floridians chose to live in a known hurricane zone. Why should I pay for them to rebuild?
> They should require that all construction was done to withstand a hurricane and make sure the owner had adequate hurricane insurance before handing out 1¢ of disaster money.


I guess you live in a state where nothing bad happens. You don't have snow, ice, flood, tornadoes, hurricanes, fires, are entirely self sufficient from society and will never need help from anyone but Jake at state farm.

In this case you can start your own country and only have to fend for yourself. As nobody anywhere else in the us contributes to your survival and well being.

Unless you see debits from your bank account labeled as specific one time disaster payments, the government borrows money from bondholders.

Just like when the rich get huge tax breaks and stimulus payments. That money was all borrowed too. But you didn't receive any stimulus because you would never expect others to pay you any money.

Fema doesn't replace insurance. It makes an attempt to get the economy moving again so that tax revenues return. That way you're not the only one left paying taxes.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Invisible said:


> Natural disasters are in every state. Some states have hurricanes, others like mine have tornadoes, We’re all in this world together. Sometimes people need help. One day, you may need the help but for a different reason.
> 
> Yes I agree that all new construction should be up to code to have greater chances of withstanding a hurricane, tornado or whatever natural disaster occurs.


You skipped over insurance. That should be required before federal aid. 
Hey, I live in the great white north where it gets bitterly cold. I knew it got cold when I moved here. Would you like to pay my heating bill?


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Fema doesn't pay ac bills.

Fema doesn't make insurance payments.

Fema is such a tiny percentage of the federal aid budget, normally less than 1-2%. What about the other 99% of government aid spending?


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Rampage said:


> I don’t either *****. I live a 100 year old house in FL by the St John’s river. Still standing and I have my own insurance.


More power to you! Gotta love an honest self sufficient human being.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

You seem to be implying that people don't want or pay for insurance.

Many companies abandon their customers without warning.

It's only profitable to operate in areas where insurers would never pay a claim. I don't know where that is, so they simply drop policies.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Atavar said:


> You skipped over insurance. That should be required before federal aid.
> Hey, I live in the great white north where it gets bitterly cold. I knew it got cold when I moved here. Would you like to pay my heating bill?


I live in on the Great White N, too. I’m not as cold of a person as you sometimes appear to be.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Invisible said:


> I live in on the Great White N, too. I’m not as cold of a person as you sometimes appear to be.


Hey, if we should pay for their weather then they should pay for our weather. It’s only fair.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Atavar said:


> Hey, if we should pay for their weather then they should pay for our weather. It’s only fair.


We do. We all pay for weather.

Up north roads crack and buckle due to freezing and road salting.

The federal government pays for maintenance of these roads because it's part of the national highway system.

Stop billing the federal government for northern road maintainance. 

But you don't absorb any resources from the federal government at all.

The world only leaches from you while you support everyone.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Atavar said:


> Hey, if we should pay for their weather then they should pay for our weather. It’s only fair.


Life isn’t always fair. It’s not fair to the OP who started a thread showing his concern for other human beings dealing with stressful circumstances, and you’re only concerned about insurance and blaming people for living in a state. People like you are what’s wrong with the world, only focused on yourself.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

It's pretty much the 4 high income states that float the whole country.

California, Texas, New York and Florida are the highest contributers to the US economy. Up north doesn't do hardly anything anymore.


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## Rickos69 (Nov 8, 2018)

jaxbeachrides said:


> It's pretty much the 4 high income states that float the whole country.
> 
> California, Texas, New York and Florida are the highest contributers to the US economy. Up north doesn't do hardly anything anymore.


There are certain contributions that can be made from wherever.
Technology doesn't have to be in silicon valley. Wall Street does not have to be in New York.
But the bread basket of America is where it is. And it is not getting its fair share of recognition.
Each area of this country contributes something. Do not underestimate any.
Food is by far the number one neccessary item for survival. Not the stock market, and not computer chips.
In the end, it all comes down to food!


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

What kind of person goes to a thread about a disaster in a state and starts attacking the people that live there? I get where you are coming from about paying for someone else, but there is a time and place.


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## comitatus1 (Mar 22, 2018)

Invisible said:


> And if you are involved in a bad crash, you could suffer brain damage, become a paraplegic or be dead. Some things you can’t anticipate or prepare for.


Well, you CAN anticipate it. Preparing for it is another matter.

Chris


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## Ms. Mercenary (Jul 24, 2020)

jaxbeachrides said:


> I never said one at a time is recommended.
> 
> I said I get away with one at a time because the vehicle had 400,000 miles.
> 
> ...


And lights should be changed in sets of 2. I would say 4, but that’s a touch excessive.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

comitatus1 said:


> Well, you CAN anticipate it. Preparing for it is another matter.
> 
> Chris


Nope. No one anticipates bad things happening. People like to believe they’re living in a protective bubble.


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## Ms. Mercenary (Jul 24, 2020)

Invisible said:


> Nope. No one anticipates bad things happening. People like to believe they’re living in a protective bubble.


I don’t think that’s true. Most people simply understand that one can’t possibly protect themself from all that can happen, so they protect themselves from what they feel is more likely to happen. Hindsight is 20/20.

There are also those who feel if one can’t protect themselves from everything, no point in protecting themselves from anything.

Acts of Nature are just that. No way to tell just how bad it’ll get. I remember Sandy very well. When I finally got to go to the shore, aside from being shaken by the destruction, I noticed that some buildings looked completely untouched. Right next door to buildings that were no longer buildings, just piles of debris. It was like someone literally hand-picked them. And it wasn’t a matter of age or poor construction - that stretch was all mansions,very solid and expensive real estate, all approximately the same grade.

What surprises me even more is realizing as they rebuild that most of them are re-building mcmansions. Huge sandcastles. They’ll blow way before the older ones, the ones that lasted through Sandy, will.

Me? I’m on a hill. Even on the Great Flood simulator I’ll be ok. But do I know what else Nature can throw at me that I can’t imagine? Nope.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Ms. Mercenary said:


> I don’t think that’s true. Most people simply understand that one can’t possibly protect themself from all that can happen, so they protect themselves from what they feel is more likely to happen. Hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> There are also those who feel if one can’t protect themselves from everything, no point in protecting themselves from anything.
> 
> ...


Yeah, an asteroid could hit anywhere. Ask the dinosaurs.


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## forqalso (Jun 1, 2015)

Atavar said:


> You skipped over insurance. That should be required before federal aid.
> Hey, I live in the great white north where it gets bitterly cold. I knew it got cold when I moved here. Would you like to pay my heating bill?


The fossil fuel industry receives 20 billion dollars a year in government subsidies, so your heating bill; at least part of it, is being paid by others, unless you think your bill would be the same or lower without the government payment.


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Atavar said:


> You know, it’s hard to feel sorry for Floridians when they knew before they moved/built there that there are at least 2 hurricanes every year. They don’t even build to withstand the weather they know is coming.





Atavar said:


> And I didn’t build my car. And I don’t Drive on a figure 8 racetrack. The Floridians chose to live in a known hurricane zone. Why should I pay for them to rebuild?
> They should require that all construction was done to withstand a hurricane and make sure the owner had adequate hurricane insurance before handing out 1¢ of disaster money.


You don't pay a dime to rebuild. You pay a tiny but to temporarily house or help people who suffer catastrophic loss. 

I lost 80% of everything in I own in 2004. We had never been hit directly by a hurricane then took 2 direct hits withing a few week. Lost part of my roof and then it was over. I got $600 from fema to "rebuild". $600 for a family of 4. 

125 each. 


To "rebuild"


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## Mcwharthog (Oct 10, 2020)

Atavar said:


> Hey, if we should pay for their weather then they should pay for our weather. It’s only fair.


We do. The Red River flood in 1997 caused billions in property damage in Minnesota and North Dakota. Ain’t that your neck of the woods? Try to find some empathy for your fellow Americans.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Mcwharthog said:


> We do. The Red River flood in 1997 caused billions in property damage in Minnesota and North Dakota. Ain’t that your neck of the woods? Try to find some empathy for your fellow Americans.


You’re saying that to the guy that blamed the Uber driver that had a pax shit in his van. Dude always takes a weird spin on things.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Mcwharthog said:


> We do. The Red River flood in 1997 caused billions in property damage in Minnesota and North Dakota. Ain’t that your neck of the woods? Try to find some empathy for your fellow Americans.


And I paid for all of my repairs from the flood that was over 20 years ago. I got no federal assistance. 
How often does Florida get hurricanes?


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Rampage said:


> You’re saying that to the guy that blamed the Uber driver that had a pax shit in his van. Dude always takes a weird spin on things.


I never blamed a driver for a pax shitting in his car. Now you’re just making stuff up.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Atavar said:


> I never blamed a driver for a pax shitting in his car. Now you’re just making stuff up.


Don’t make me go to that thread to get quotes. I have that thread on ignore because it got so stupid.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Boca Ratman said:


> You don't pay a dime to rebuild. You pay a tiny but to temporarily house or help people who suffer catastrophic loss.
> 
> I lost 80% of everything in I own in 2004. We had never been hit directly by a hurricane then took 2 direct hits withing a few week. Lost part of my roof and then it was over. I got $600 from fema to "rebuild". $600 for a family of 4.
> 
> ...





forqalso said:


> The fossil fuel industry receives 20 billion dollars a year in government subsidies, so your heating bill; at least part of it, is being paid by others, unless you think your bill would be the same or lower without the government payment.


You’re reaching here. No moneys were paid to me for my heating bill.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Atavar said:


> And I paid for all of my repairs from the flood that was over 20 years ago. I got no federal assistance.
> How often does Florida get hurricanes?


Actually the entire coast gets hurricanes. It isn't restricted to just one specific section of coastline.

I'd been here my whole adult life and there's been about 4 big storms. I'd never been given money either.


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## forqalso (Jun 1, 2015)

Atavar said:


> You’re reaching here. No moneys were paid to me for my heating bill.


Your bill is lower because of the subsidies. You not wanting to acknowledge that benefit to you changes nothing.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

forqalso said:


> Your bill is lower because of the subsidies. You not wanting to acknowledge that benefit to you changes nothing.


I have not applied for nor received any subsidies And in any case that is national so all taxpayers benefit.


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## forqalso (Jun 1, 2015)

Atavar said:


> I have not applied for nor received any subsidies And in any case that is national so all taxpayers benefit.


Your denials change nothing. You still benefit from the taxpayers giving subsidies to the fossil fuel industry. Thirty more posts denying that fact won’t change anything. Same with the aid that is waiting for you if; God forbid, some disaster affects your community. All taxpayers benefit.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

forqalso said:


> Your denials change nothing. You still benefit from the taxpayers giving subsidies to the fossil fuel industry. Thirty more posts denying that fact won’t change anything. Same with the aid that is waiting for you if; God forbid, some disaster affects your community. All taxpayers benefit.


I don’t think he understands the concept of consuming a subsidy thru a commodity. When (if) it finally clicks, he’s going to be really embarrassed.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

This is a shared society. Wealthy benefit the most from the labor of low paid workers, while much of the infrastructure is paid for by the top wage earners.

The highest 4-5 income producing states including fl contribute 40% of us gdp, while some midwest states contribute around 1%.

Meanwhile, the federal government subsidizes your highways all winter. Paves them, salts them, plows them.

This is an ongoing expense, vs an act of God, which happens only on occasion.

Like previously stated, you can always start your own country and not pay any taxes, or insurance. Then you could just fend for yourself and be happy.


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## Taxi818 (Jan 31, 2017)

Invisible said:


> Natural disasters are in every state. Some states have hurricanes, others like mine have tornadoes, We’re all in this world together. Sometimes people need help. One day, you may need the help but for a different reason.
> 
> Yes I agree that all new construction should be up to code to have greater chances of withstanding a hurricane, tornado or whatever natural disaster occurs.


Yes but most houses are not new construction. The majority were built before the new code standards went into effect. So grandfathered in.


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## Mozart27 (Jun 12, 2017)

Atavar said:


> You know, it’s hard to feel sorry for Floridians when they knew before they moved/built there that there are at least 2 hurricanes every year. They don’t even build to withstand the weather they know is coming.


The fact is, building codes are updated all the time. I just moved here. And prior to moving into the house, a new roof was installed. It held its own with virtually no damage. It's like the wind that kills (buy and large), it's the water (that's why they keep talking about storm surge). Other than a few months of the year, the weather here is beautiful most of the year.

And now is not the time to throw shade on the people who live here... It's like you telling people who live in Seattle, "why do you live here when it rains all the time. Or telling people in Minnesota, "it's cold with blizzards all the time, why are you there?" 

You are a 🤡 dude!


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## harcouber (Dec 4, 2017)

Rampage said:


> People die in cars everyday but yet you drive.


But most of us do not drive in hurricane prone areas ....
My family is originally from Florida, but we got out on our own terms .... no desire to return.


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## harcouber (Dec 4, 2017)

Rickos69 said:


> There are certain contributions that can be made from wherever.
> Technology doesn't have to be in silicon valley. Wall Street does not have to be in New York.
> But the bread basket of America is where it is. And it is not getting its fair share of recognition.
> Each area of this country contributes something. Do not underestimate any.
> ...


Wrong ..... you can have all the food in the world, without WATER you will die!

.


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## harcouber (Dec 4, 2017)

forqalso said:


> The fossil fuel industry receives 20 billion dollars a year in government subsidies, so your heating bill; at least part of it, is being paid by others, unless you think your bill would be the same or lower without the government payment.


You assume that somehow everyone uses fossil fuel to heat their homes.
Some of my neighbors might .... but we do not.
Fossil fuel for heat is a complete LAST RESORT.
We have modern wood burning stoves, furnaces and fireplaces that heat our homes and outbuildings.
We get water from wells, and have our own septic systems.

We only have a commercial grid power hookup because of laws, regulations and codes.
If I could have that pulled out, I would.

We had a massive storm a couple of months ago ..... took down the grid for 8 days.
We hardly noticed a blip.


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## Mozart27 (Jun 12, 2017)

Atavar said:


> You skipped over insurance. That should be required before federal aid.
> Hey, I live in the great white north where it gets bitterly cold. I knew it got cold when I moved here. Would you like to pay my heating bill?


As as pointed out multiple times... FEMA funds are for catastrophic natural disasters. You talked about tax moneys (Florida does not have a state tax!). 
Oh, and 'home insurance' is required by law. Before you can own/buy the home you must had proof of sufficient insurance coverage. And for 'similar' policy coverage, the premium here is about 3x as much. In a lot of other states, you either don't need insurance to complete your real estate purchase. Or you don't need to hold the policy after the fact.

As it was pointed out, IF you were in a catastrophic multi car accident, and your insurance coverage couldn't cover it all you would be screwed. That's where these organization's come in and help cover those gaps. FEMA funds are also mostly for infrastructure rebuilding. Someone has to pay all those companies to bring the techs and engineers in to rebuild stuff.


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## harcouber (Dec 4, 2017)

Atavar said:


> I have not applied for nor received any subsidies And in any case that is national so all taxpayers benefit.


The companies that provide you power and fuels have all received subsidies in one for or another.
This allows them to provide power and fuels to consumers at a lower price.
As a consumer YOU have benefited from those subsidies .....
So yes, YOU have received subsidies though indirectly.


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## Mozart27 (Jun 12, 2017)

Atavar said:


> You’re reaching here. No moneys were paid to me for my heating bill.


You missed the point entirely.... You do realize that WITHOUT those subsidies, your bill would go up about 10x what it is. So in a way, yes, they do cover part of your bill.


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## Mozart27 (Jun 12, 2017)

harcouber said:


> You assume that somehow everyone uses fossil fuel to heat their homes.
> Some of my neighbors might .... but we do not.
> Fossil fuel for heat is a complete LAST RESORT.
> We have modern wood burning stoves, furnaces and fireplaces that heat our homes and outbuildings.
> ...


I'm just curious where you live, that they require you to hook up to the grid. Are you telling me also, that when moved in to that home there was no main grid hookup? Or was it already present?
If you haven't already done so, consider solar system. You produce your own energy, sell back excess back to the grid, and during an outage you are covered.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

harcouber said:


> But most of us do not drive in hurricane prone areas ....
> My family is originally from Florida, but we got out on our own terms .... no desire to return.


I’m talking about a car crash, not a car incident with a hurricane. WTH are you talking about?


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## Ms. Mercenary (Jul 24, 2020)

Atavar said:


> You know, it’s hard to feel sorry for Floridians when they knew before they moved/built there that there are at least 2 hurricanes every year. They don’t even build to withstand the weather they know is coming.


Interesting. I don’t find it hard to feel sorry for anyone if they’re facing severe losses. Certainly not retirees who frequently put everything they have into what they can afford.

Compassion is a good thing. It cleanses the Soul.


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## forqalso (Jun 1, 2015)

harcouber said:


> You assume that somehow everyone uses fossil fuel to heat their homes.
> Some of my neighbors might .... but we do not.
> Fossil fuel for heat is a complete LAST RESORT.
> We have modern wood burning stoves, furnaces and fireplaces that heat our homes and outbuildings.
> ...


So, since I mentioned fossil fuel subsidies to someone else, you naturally assume I think everyone uses fossil fuels to heat their homes? What percentage of people still use wood fires, exclusively for heat? According to the US census, it’s 1.9% of all homes. You’re right, it was crazy to refer to the method used by 98.1% of the country. What was I thinking?


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

harcouber said:


> Wrong ..... you can have all the food in the world, without WATER you will die!
> 
> .


Have you ever heard of the Great Lakes? Some of the upper Midwest have plenty of access to a huge water supply.@Rickos69 lives by the 3rd largest with over 22,000 square miles of water. We ain’t gonna die up here from no water.


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## Ms. Mercenary (Jul 24, 2020)

Invisible said:


> Have you ever heard of the Great Lakes? Some of the upper Midwest have access to a large water and @Rickos69 lives by the 3rd largest with over 22,000 square miles of water. We ain’t gonna die up here from no water.


I don’t need water. Just diet caffiene-free Pepsi. 😂


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

harcouber said:


> You've been guided and influenced by religion your entire life.
> Maybe you're just not bright enough to realize it!


You have zero clue what he’s been guided by. Your comment is rude and inappropriate and doesn’t belong in this thread.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Ms. Mercenary said:


> I don’t need water. Just diet caffiene-free Pepsi. 😂


Isn’t that water with a whole bunch of aspartame?


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## Ms. Mercenary (Jul 24, 2020)

Invisible said:


> Isn’t that water with a whole bunch of aspartame?


I can’t say, really. Water hydrates. Pepsi does not. 😂


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## Rickos69 (Nov 8, 2018)

harcouber said:


> Wrong ..... you can have all the food in the world, without WATER you will die!
> 
> .


Since you mention it, we have lake michigan.
You can desalinate seawater.
Alternatively, you can buy water from Mr. Gates.


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## Rickos69 (Nov 8, 2018)

Invisible said:


> Have you ever heard of the Great Lakes? Some of the upper Midwest have plenty of access to a huge water supply.@Rickos69 lives by the 3rd largest with over 22,000 square miles of water. We ain’t gonna die up here from no water.


You always beat me to the punchline!


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## Mad_Jack_Flint (Nov 19, 2020)

Florida has all the fun!


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## Roiki (11 mo ago)

harcouber said:


> For years I drove a 2WD (rear wheel drive) SUV (full size Chevy Blazer) in all kinds of snow .... even a blizzard or two on good all season tires without issue.
> 
> It's all about knowing how to drive on snow, knowing the capabilities of your vehicle and how to exploit them.
> 
> ...


Nice 👍 Love winter driving too, currently live in FL ,but was born in rise in North Europe , and always hear 2 different opinions , in RWD as your truck ,where one should put the best tires ,on rear or front ,I am talking exactly for winter road driving ? Just wanted to hear your opinion.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

I think I’m going to do what you did around Christmas a few years ago. Site draining me and not as much fun anymore, too many debaters, rudeness and etc. Plus it’s becoming too liberal, and I doubt I’ll ever do gig work again.

One final word for you…

DA BEARS STILL SUCK!!!!!!!!!!

Much prayers that the Giants cream them today.


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Mozart27 said:


> Oh, and 'home insurance' is required by law. Before you can own/buy the home you must had proof of sufficient insurance coverage.


Oh bullshit. There is no law in Florida that requires one to have insurance to purchase / own a home.


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Mozart27 said:


> I'm just curious where you live, that they require you to hook up to the grid


In Florida you have to have power be they issue a certificate of occupancy (CO), without a CO you cannot occupy the residence.


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## Rickos69 (Nov 8, 2018)

Invisible said:


> Now Seamus is going to come after you again for stirring the pot. 😀
> 
> I think I’m going to do what you did around Christmas a few years ago. Site draining me and not as much fun anymore, too many debaters, rudeness and etc. Plus it’s becoming too liberal, and I doubt I’ll ever do gig work again.
> 
> ...


From you, i will accept anything you have to give me!!!🌹😘😘😘
As for @Seamus, he did a great analysis of me in the other post.
He figured me out.
The only thing that remains now is for him to let us know if he is also a flat earther.


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## indytd2 (Jun 15, 2021)

harcouber said:


> The companies that provide you power and fuels have all received subsidies in one for or another.
> This allows them to provide power and fuels to consumers at a lower price.
> As a consumer YOU have benefited from those subsidies .....
> So yes, YOU have received subsidies though indirectly.


And yet more than 50% of those subsidies are handed over to the CEOs and top executives. How else are their wages going up by over 100% while low wage earners are barely going up at all?


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## Mozart27 (Jun 12, 2017)

Boca Ratman said:


> Oh bullshit. There is no law in Florida that requires one to have insurance to purchase / own a home.


Wrong! We just had to go through this... Before we could close on the purchase, we had to have a binded home insurance policy! And in our case, the roof needed redone before the insurance company would bind the policy so that needed done first! The real estate title company WOULD NOT complete the transaction without proof of insurance. Because it is required by state law. which makes sense, do to the number of natural disaster damage that happens in Florida. And premiums are higher here do to that, and also a lot of 'insurance fraud' that happens.

This is also why my car insurance went from a premium of $75 in Ohio, to $200 in Florida for the same policy!!


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## Mozart27 (Jun 12, 2017)

Boca Ratman said:


> In Florida you have to have power be they issue a certificate of occupancy (CO), without a CO you cannot occupy the residence.


ok, but if you have an alternative power source (i.e. solar, generator, etc) wouldn't that qualify and be enough? you said you were 'required' to hook up to the grid.


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Mozart27 said:


> As as pointed out multiple times... FEMA funds are for catastrophic natural disasters. You talked about tax moneys (Florida does not have a state tax!).


Florida has a *6.00 percent state sales tax rate*








How does Florida's tax code compare?


Learn about Florida tax rates, rankings and more. Explore data on Florida's income tax, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, and business taxes.




taxfoundation.org




.


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Invisible said:


> Have you ever heard of the Great Lakes? Some of the upper Midwest have plenty of access to a huge water supply.@Rickos69 lives by the 3rd largest with over 22,000 square miles of water. We ain’t gonna die up here from no water.


Lake Michigan dropped more than 2 feet in 2 years.
At this rate, we will be out of water in less than 900 years!


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Wil Mette said:


> Florida has a *6.00 percent state sales tax rate*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fl does not have personal INCOME tax. It has corporate income tax, and a base sales tax plus county tax.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Wil Mette said:


> Lake Michigan dropped more than 2 feet in 2 years.
> At this rate, we will be out of water in less than 900 years!


That's just snowmelt water. There's still a huge groundwater supply, with many spring fed lakes.

Outside of the cities, most the rural areas have private wells. It's not like the desert where there's no water.


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

jaxbeachrides said:


> That's just snowmelt water. There's still a huge groundwater supply, with many spring fed lakes.
> 
> Outside of the cities, most the rural areas have private wells. It's not like the desert where there's no water.


Do you know why most cities do not use those sources?
I bet you a million bucks. When you are 859 years old, you will be worried about water. 
OK, Lake Michigan rose 6 feet, then lost 26 inches.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Because it is much easier to use the large abundant sources that are easy to access.

I'm sure mankind will have plenty of bigger problems if it survives a few hundred years.


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## Mozart27 (Jun 12, 2017)

Wil Mette said:


> Florida has a *6.00 percent state sales tax rate*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A 'sales tax' is locally regulated. It's NOT a state tax. Sales tax can also vary by county. It's not 6% across the board. Do you work in Florida? Are you taxed by the state on your paystub? No? Ok then.... 

Two different things...


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Mozart27 said:


> Wrong! We just had to go through this... Before we could close on the purchase, we had to have a binded home insurance policy! And in our case, the roof needed redone before the insurance company would bind the policy so that needed done first! The real estate title company WOULD NOT complete the transaction without proof of insurance. Because it is required by state law. which makes sense, do to the number of natural disaster damage that happens in Florida. And premiums are higher here do to that, and also a lot of 'insurance fraud' that happens.
> 
> This is also why my car insurance went from a premium of $75 in Ohio, to $200 in Florida for the same policy!!


You lender requires you to have insurance, not the law. If you pay cash for a home, you do not have to have insurance.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

jaxbeachrides said:


> That's just snowmelt water. There's still a huge groundwater supply, with many spring fed lakes.
> 
> Outside of the cities, most the rural areas have private wells. It's not like the desert where there's no water.


WI has 15,000 lakes, including Lake MI. We have more lakes than MN, known for 10,000 lakes. So besides wells in rural areas, there’s plenty of other water, excluding all the snowmelt water.


----------

