# article: Millions of jobs probably aren’t coming back, even after the pandemic ends



## JeanOcelot0 (Dec 30, 2020)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/road-to-recovery/2021/02/17/unemployed-workers-retrainingmy opinion: Retraining? What, so that the level of unemployable skills is higher?


----------



## ANT 7 (Oct 14, 2018)

Retrain for what jobs exactly ?

This is the constant mantra of the Canadian government urchins who alwyas say retrain, retrain, retrain.......but as no jobs are available.......


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

According a study released about two weeks ago by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2025 would put 1.4 million Americans out of work. The first to lose their job will be those with no or low skills and/or education, the very people that are supposed to be helped by raising the minimum wage. Of course, prices will be higher with increased worker wages.

Some businesses will close, as demonstrated by some Kroger stores in California closing in response to the law they must pay employees $4 more per hour due to the Covid crisis. 

Its cheaper to grow cotton in the USA, pay an export duty, ship it to Asia, pay the Asian import duty, pay Asians to make the clothes, pay the Asian export duty on the clothes, ship them back to the USA, and pay an import duty than to pay an American to sew.

Manufacturing jobs used to be plentiful. They increased domestic employment. They increased exports. They decreased trade deficits. They increased national security. How can we bring manufacturing jobs back to the USA?

Service jobs are good. But not if we can't afford the service.


----------



## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

Democrats are great at creating policies that harm the job market. Biden’s first roll as president was to halt the building of the wall and open the border, killing those construction jobs and allowing more immigrants to come in and compete for fewer jobs. Biden also halted the Keystone pipeline, killing those construction jobs and creating higher fuel prices which affect other businesses as well; that trucker who brings food to your table is dealing with higher fuel cost, and you the consumer will be paying for it. Furthermore, Biden’s promises to raise taxes will ship more jobs overseas to other countries who are more tax-friendly. But hey, Biden is too busy kissing Iran’s ass to worry about America. 😄


----------



## ANT 7 (Oct 14, 2018)

Go where you are treated best.


----------



## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

ANT 7 said:


> Go where you are treated best.


Easier said than done. But true nonetheless.


----------



## 💎reditthraway (Jan 6, 2021)

bsliv said:


> Manufacturing jobs used to be plentiful. They increased domestic employment. They increased exports. They decreased trade deficits. They increased national security. How can we bring manufacturing jobs back to the USA?


Engineering/software programmers are among the new manufacturing.

People can self-teach themselves to code.

Jobs being exited out doesn't mean fresh ones won't pop out. It's like how the hotel industry had a mini crash. The covid friendly businesses took off: zoom, Amazon, etc.



bsliv said:


> Service jobs are good. But not if we can't afford the service.


Service jobs will always be around. Even if a store goes all digital, there still needs to be someone manning the fort. So human capital is cut down but not altogether eliminated.

I think if truly, you absolutely positively enjoy a job in the service sector (like being a waitress for example) and not even the ultimate Karen/Ken diva would test your unlimited amount of patience and smile, you'll be able to retain the position even as positions are being cut left and right because most likely those who are cut don't really love it but are just doing it to get by or because they were in a bind and then just stuck with it.

Things will work itself out but it might be hell to let that naturally progress. People should be thinking of plan C to Z if they didn't already because plan B isn't enough.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bsliv said:


> According a study released about two weeks ago by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2025 would put 1.4 million Americans out of work. The first to lose their job will be those with no or low skills and/or education, the very people that are supposed to be helped by raising the minimum wage. Of course, prices will be higher with increased worker wages.
> 
> Some businesses will close, as demonstrated by some Kroger stores in California closing in response to the law they must pay employees $4 more per hour due to the Covid crisis.
> 
> ...


Kroger closed 2 out of 8 stores here in Long Beach.

Both underperforming and rumored to be closing way before the pandemic.

The Ralphs store on Los Coyotes hasn't been remodeled since the 90s. It and the property next door (that has been demolished for a few months) are supposed to be built in to homes.

The Food4less in North Long Beach is a mile from another FFL that IS NOT closing.

Both stores have a Walmart Supercenter within a mile of them. They are NOT closing.

Both stores have 2-3 other major grocery stores within half a mile that are NOT closing.

Kroger itself is NOT closing the OTHER six stores it owns in Long Beach, even though the "hazard pay" affects those stores too.

How do we bring jobs back to the US?

Tariff all imports.

I can hear the whining now.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

observer said:


> Tarriff all imports.


Who are you, Donald Trump?

Tariffs imposed by the Trump administration and the retaliatory tariffs imposed by other countries are estimated to have reduce long-run GDP by 0.23 percent, wages by 0.15 percent, and employment by 179,800 full-time equivalent jobs.

A tariffs is a tax. While these taxes are paid by the importers and exporters, the cost is passed on to the consumer. Also, since the products are more expensive, fewer will be bought and sold.

Trades are beneficial to both parties. If one will pay no more than $1 for an apple and another one will sell an apple for no less than $1, chances are good the two will trade $1 for an apple. Both parties are happy. But if a third party imposes a sales tax of 10% or an income tax of 10%, chances are the trade will not take place. Both parties are unhappy, the economy loses, and no tax is collected. The higher the tax, the more likely business will be lost and/or a black market will be created (smuggling, under the table payments, etc.).

So, tariffs will reduce imports, increase prices, reduce employment and cause a lower standard of living for most.

Is that whining or reality?


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bsliv said:


> Who are you, Donald Trump?
> 
> Tariffs imposed by the Trump administration and the retaliatory tariffs imposed by other countries are estimated to have reduce long-run GDP by 0.23 percent, wages by 0.15 percent, and employment by 179,800 full-time equivalent jobs.
> 
> ...


The reality is we whine about manufacturing jobs being sent overseas until we have to pay for it.


----------



## amazinghl (Oct 31, 2018)

My friend died of Covid two weeks ago and lay to rest 2 days ago. Millions of lives aren’t coming back, even after the pandemic ends.

As for jobs; time moves on, you either move with it or be moved by it.


----------



## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

The list of countries that has high GDP rate are countries with less democracy such as Vietnam, Cambodian, Nepal etc.. It is better that we dropped capitalism and adopt to a "socialism-democracy hybrid".. It works better for the GDP

Capitalism only good for rich people/top 10%...

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?most_recent_value_desc=true


amazinghl said:


> My friend died of Covid two weeks ago and lay to rest 2 days ago. Millions of lives aren't coming back, even after the pandemic ends.
> 
> As for jobs; time moves on, you either move with it or be moved by it.


530 mil lives arent coming back including 15-25% of covid long haulers cannot work forever. Once your lungs are scarred by the virus, your lungs cannot function 100%.. Then lungs cannot filter out CO properly, then your body will go haywire by all those CO still stuck in your body.. Scarring is permanent damage. CO makes your body bruise, color change, everyday fatigue, drastically reduce vitality etc.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

observer said:


> The reality is we whine about manufacturing jobs being sent overseas until we have to pay for it.


AHEM: WALMART AND DOLLAR STORES killed America.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

bethswannns said:


> The list of countries that has high GDP rate are countries with less democracy such as Vietnam, Cambodian, Nepal etc..


GDP per capita has the USA at $59,939.
Vietnam is at $2,366.
Cambodia is at $1,384.
Nepal is at $900.

Capitalism is the best economic system. It provides for an efficient allocation of resources. It provides for efficient production. It provides for financial incentives. Economic freedom promotes political and personal freedom. It offers the poor an opportunity to improve their own well being.



Kurt Halfyard said:


> WALMART AND DOLLAR STORES killed America.


Walmart revolutionized American business. They employ over 2 million people. They provide inexpensive products that allow the poor to purchase goods they otherwise couldn't afford. Sam Walton was the son of farmers. He bought his first store with $5000 he saved from his Army duty and a loan of $20,000. When he died he was worth nearly $9 billion. He didn't get there ripping people off. He got there by providing products that people wanted and could afford.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

bsliv said:


> Walmart revolutionized American business. They employ over 2 million people. They provide inexpensive products that allow the poor to purchase goods they otherwise couldn't afford. Sam Walton was the son of farmers. He bought his first store with $5000 he saved from his Army duty and a loan of $20,000. When he died he was worth nearly $9 billion. He didn't get there ripping people off. He got there by providing products that people wanted and could afford.


Also created a race-to-the-bottom for community business, massive move towards disposable 'junk from china' (Bunker fuel oil alone in Shipping Transport of $1 junk is a massive contribution to Greenhouse Gasses -It has been estimated that just one of these *container ships*, the length of around six football pitches, *can* produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars.),

Walmart has a history of busting any kind of labour movements to improve quality and wages inside his store-empire, created gawdawful violence and nonsense around black Friday, further contributed to the deaths off city-centre commerce by creating massive stores on the fringes of suburbs and cities. Walmart might have provided a lot of jobs, but they are shitty minimum wage jobs. He may have provided a lot of 'cheap goods' but this all comes at the cost of the environment and local production. Furthermore in the CD music and DVD movie age, walmarts purchasing power created a censorship by scale issue due to their puritanical values systems, thus devaluing art and expression and diversity. I really hate this company.

Please a big hearty **** you to Walmart and the Walton family.

But we got this subgenre of music, "New Orlean's Bounce". So there is that.


----------



## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

Why are many capitalist countries GDP rate so low now? It looks like it stopped working now. Capitalism allows innovation and ideas to flourish but at the same time, they are look out for your money. We know iphone only cost 100 bucks in raw material but they decided to charge you 1k for a dum phone. If it cost 100 bucks to make, they should only sell it for 120 bucks at max. Time for adaption.

60k use in Vietnam you will live like a king. but in USA 60k is nothing...


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

JeanOcelot0 said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/road-to-recovery/2021/02/17/unemployed-workers-retrainingmy opinion: Retraining? What, so that the level of unemployable skills is higher?


Retrain to be COMMUNIST CHINEESE !

BECAUSE
THEY HAVE JOBS !

AND BESIDES
COMMUNIST CHINA WILL OWN US.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

tohunt4me said:


> Retrain to be COMMUNIST CHINEESE !
> 
> BECAUSE
> THEY HAVE JOBS !
> ...


There is no constructive way to say this: THIS quoted POST above IS reductive and DUMB


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> There is no constructive way to say this: THIS quoted POST above IS reductive and DUMB


Yet TRUE !


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

No one forced a person to work at Walmart. No one forced a person to buy from Walmart. Let freedom ring. Want to see force applied in an economic system? Look towards socialism.

My new $39 microwave oven came from China. Am I proud that I support an authoritative, communist government? No. But I'm not willing to pay $390 for an American made one.

International trade creates pollution? Sure. So does farming. So does building a house. So does domestic production of durable goods. Free trade between people or countries is a win for both. If I voluntarily trade my labor for money, I win, my employer wins, too. I didn't think I was paid enough, I'm free to look elsewhere. If the employer didn't think I was productive enough for my wage, I should be fired. I'm free to choose. The employer is free to choose.

Want to compare freedom vs force? Try Hong Kong vs the rest of China. Between those two, where would you like to live. Let freedom ring.



bethswannns said:


> 60k use in Vietnam you will live like a king. but in USA 60k is nothing...


Have you seen the standard of living in Vietnam? They can't afford to buy foreign goods. Due to their low cost of living, it is popular for retirees. If they are truly socialist, the cost of property would be controlled by the government. The land would be bought by people who made their money elsewhere. That leaves little land available for locals. Supply and demand works. A command economy will eventually fail.


----------



## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

Vietnam is operated under a capitalism-socialism hybrid imo, not full communism/socialism. Same as China. Many countries have some degree of capitalism. Whatever these countries do to achieve the high GDP rate % every year, we should learn and follow them.

Capitalism is not the end game as everything will evolve and we will adapt to it in life. We are seeing a huge income margin between the rich and average joes. The top 1-3% of the people control most of the money supply.. This is why the young generation supports socialism because things are getting too expensive.. real estate, education, low wages..


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

bethswannns said:


> Capitalism is not the end game


Perhaps not but its the best game in town. An efficient market is the most productive. Government involvement in markets reduce their efficiency. When it comes to health and safety, government interference may be necessary. Government interference when determining what products to produce, how many of the products, at what cost and at what selling price is counter productive. Hong Kong vs China is one example. The former West Germany vs East Germany is another good example, same type of people, same type of environment, vastly different productivity. Look at their cars! North Korea vs South Korea?



bethswannns said:


> We are seeing a huge income margin between the rich and average joes.


The differences in wealth is not the important feature. The typical person in a capitalist market will be better off than the typical person in a socialist market. How many socialist individuals can start a car company? How many socialist individuals can send people into orbit? How many socialist individuals can create a company that puts taxis out of business? The top earners in a capitalist system got their for a reason. There are no top earners in a socialist system. Their wealth is taxed away. It stifles innovation. It stifles incentives. How well does the Vietnamese Wall St work? A poor but smart capitalist can get extremely rich. A poor but smart socialist will be poor.



bethswannns said:


> This is why the young generation supports socialism because things are getting too expensive.. real estate, education, low wages..


The young generation don't understand the force involved in a socialist economy. How'd you like to be a farmer who is told what to produce, how much to produce, and at what price you can sell your product for, or be penalized (lose your farm, your freedom, or even your life)?

Things getting too expensive? Inflation. Real estate? Do you know how supply and demand act in a free market? (If not, ask me, I've been a real estate appraiser for 30 years.) Education? Get the government out of education and watch the price tumble. Low wages? Become more productive. Someone with no skills will get very low wages. Someone with skills in an area with no demand will get very low wages. Bad choices should not be rewarded. Good choices should be rewarded. Don't spend $100k on an art history degree. Don't drop out of high school and complain about Walmart's wages.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

bsliv said:


> Perhaps not but its the best game in town. An efficient market is the most productive. Government involvement in markets reduce their efficiency. When it comes to health and safety, government interference may be necessary. Government interference when determining what products to produce, how many of the products, at what cost and at what selling price is counter productive. Hong Kong vs China is one example. The former West Germany vs East Germany is another good example, same type of people, same type of environment, vastly different productivity. Look at their cars! North Korea vs South Korea?
> 
> The differences in wealth is not the important feature. The typical person in a capitalist market will be better off than the typical person in a socialist market. How many socialist individuals can start a car company? How many socialist individuals can send people into orbit? How many socialist individuals can create a company that puts taxis out of business? The top earners in a capitalist system got their for a reason. There are no top earners in a socialist system. Their wealth is taxed away. It stifles innovation. It stifles incentives. How well does the Vietnamese Wall St work? A poor but smart capitalist can get extremely rich. A poor but smart socialist will be poor.
> 
> ...


That is a mighty oversimplified worldview you've got going there...


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> That is a mighty oversimplified worldview you've got going there...


Want me to write you a book on economics? I thought what I wrote was long enough. I guess I just should have said, "Its not fair".


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

> [HEADING=2]Millions of jobs probably aren't coming back, even after the [insert event] ends[/HEADING]


So they said during the 2008 recession, and the 2001 recession before it, the early 1990s recession etc etc etc etc

&#128564;


----------



## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

bsliv said:


> Perhaps not but its the best game in town. An efficient market is the most productive. Government involvement in markets reduce their efficiency. When it comes to health and safety, government interference may be necessary. Government interference when determining what products to produce, how many of the products, at what cost and at what selling price is counter productive. Hong Kong vs China is one example. The former West Germany vs East Germany is another good example, same type of people, same type of environment, vastly different productivity. Look at their cars! North Korea vs South Korea?
> 
> The differences in wealth is not the important feature. The typical person in a capitalist market will be better off than the typical person in a socialist market. How many socialist individuals can start a car company? How many socialist individuals can send people into orbit? How many socialist individuals can create a company that puts taxis out of business? The top earners in a capitalist system got their for a reason. There are no top earners in a socialist system. Their wealth is taxed away. It stifles innovation. It stifles incentives. How well does the Vietnamese Wall St work? A poor but smart capitalist can get extremely rich. A poor but smart socialist will be poor.
> 
> ...


I am not talking about extreme ends of either 100% capitalism or 100% socialism. I don't think anything countries fit the extreme end of either of these two systems, except for a small few (maybe North Korea, Venezuela??) If we used vietnam as an example, their economy isn't run as 100% socialism at all. they do have capitalism in certain degree.

Here is what I think will work best.. Essential/necessities (gas, food, house, transportation, education etc) are needed to be operated under socialism while the nonessential things like Iphone, TV etc can be capitalism..


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

bethswannns said:


> Whatever these countries do to achieve the high GDP rate % every year, we should learn and follow them.


I was accused of being too simplistic so I've increased my verbosity in order to more thoroughly explain ideas.

Let's take a closer look at Vietnam.

Vietnam's minimum wage has risen to between $125 and $180 a month, depending on the region. According to one survey, the average worker's minimum monthly spending is $280, while the average base salary is $198, which forces laborers to work a considerable amount of overtime just to cover their minimum expenses. That is not the economy we should strive to match.

You seem to be referring to their GDP *growth* rate. Its easy to grow when your base is one bowl of rice a day. Go to two bowls and you get a 100% growth rate. Vietnam is 21st of 190 countries in growth rate at 6.81% to $2366 GDP per capita, an increase of about $125 per capita per year. If the US grew at 6.81%, it would require an increase of nearly $4000 per capita per year.

The highest increase in growth rate was Libya at 26.68%. Should we try to emulate their economy? NO! Just a few years prior, their GDP declined by 62.08%. By contrast, during the past 60 years, the USA only had one year with a negative growth rate of GDP per capita (2009, at -2.65%).

The USA has about 4% of the world's population and over 24% of the world's GDP.



bethswannns said:


> Essential/necessities (gas, food, house, transportation, education etc) are needed to be operated under socialism


I disagree strongly.

The price of gasoline in this country is highly correlated to the price of a barrel of oil on the world market. The world market in oil is a free market, the price is set by the supply vs the demand. Who do you propose set the price of gas and how do they calculate it? If it is set too low, oil companies will shut down. What should be done to businesses and consumers who don't follow the price fixing? Do you realize this has been tried before? It resulted in shortages which in turn led to rationing. When the price was allowed to rise to market levels, oil companies went back to work. With an artificially low price, oil companies will not pump and refine the oil. OPEC will not sell at a price we set. With an artificially high price, consumers would be adversely effected.

Food is highly regulated now. The government will pay farmers not to produce a certain crop in order to control the supply and keep the price high and stable. The government will pay an over market price to farmers to encourage production of a certain crop. The government does this to keep the supply and price stable. But the cost is higher prices to the consumer.

Who is to set the price of real estate? Currently a homeowner will sell their house if they can get the price they desire. A buyer will buy a house if the can get a price they desire. Each is free to accept or decline an offer or make a counter offer. What happens to the homeowner if they charge more than your artificially set price? What happens to the homeowner is they accept less than your artificially set price? What about the buyer paying more or less than the artificially set price? Who is to enforce this? Will their bank accounts be examined to make sure no under the table cash was paid or accepted?

Transportation? Will there be a minimum and maximum amount paid for used cars? That would result in cars unable to be sold because they cost too much or cars unable to be sold because the buyer won't sell for that cheap. Again, who and how is this to be enforced? Are we talking prison time or reeducation camps? Will Fords and Ferraris cost the same? Shouldn't we be free to choose what we want and how much we'll pay for it?

The government already pays for K-12 education. The government already subsidizes higher education with loans. With the high availability of financial assistance, demand increases at the university level. With more students vying for a fixed amount of space, the price of tuition goes up.

The only allowance I'll concede to high government regulation is in a natural monopoly with a mostly inelastic demand.


----------



## 💎reditthraway (Jan 6, 2021)

bethswannns said:


> We know iphone only cost 100 bucks in raw material but they decided to charge you 1k for a dum phone. If it cost 100 bucks to make, they should only sell it for 120 bucks at max.


&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;

no one needs to buy a $1200 phone. If someone makes a phone and can command $1200 for it, good for them.

to think that if you can make a phone for $100 landed, that the max you'd charge is $120 is laughable. I can't even.

add that along with other comments you've made, it's clear if someone with your train of thought was allowed to be in a position of power, the whole damn house will burn.

capitalism is what allows an immigrant to not only live the American dream but make themselves a millionaire or hell, even a billionaire.


----------



## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

bsliv said:


> I was accused of being too simplistic so I've increased my verbosity in order to more thoroughly explain ideas.
> 
> Let's take a closer look at Vietnam.
> 
> ...


Per capita Americans are not as well-off as you think. There are many dead-end jobs like waitress, taxi/rideshare, hotel staff, cook etc that don't make enough money. If we eliminate the top 10% earner, the per capita average is probably 35-40k.. CEO earn 45X more than an average worker so that skew the average bigly. These low income earners needed government assistance (maybe it is also called socialism by many people)

43% of people make less than 25k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States

Not disagreeing with your figures that our per capita is ahead of Vietnam by alot. But at least they are retaining their jobs while our jobs are leaving. 


&#128142;reditthraway said:


> &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;
> 
> no one needs to buy a $1200 phone. If someone makes a phone and can command $1200 for it, good for them.
> 
> ...


This reasoning depends on which shoes you are wearing. If you are one of many individuals who assemble iphone for the company and earn a meager income, then they would want to cap the price of the iphone..

For owners, they want to take as much money as they can away from you..


----------



## 💎reditthraway (Jan 6, 2021)

bethswannns said:


> This reasoning depends on which shoes you are wearing. If you are one of many individuals who assemble iphone for the company and earn a meager income, then they would want to cap the price of the iphone..
> 
> For owners, they want to take as much money as they can away from you..


Nope.

that's not reasoning. do you even know what customer acquisition is? real real estate agents (successful ones anyways) would. as the tipping point. there are a million other factors that come into play (im not saying Apple isn't sitting on fat cash because they are but selling it for $800 is far more reasonable and logical then $120)

expecting a $20 spread to cover everything... at that point they're paying to let people have their phones.


----------



## ANT 7 (Oct 14, 2018)

Communism does not work, even when you try to hide the fact what it really is, by calling it something else.

Our problem is a select group of politicians, banksters, presstitutes and CEO'S.......not capitalism.


----------



## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/11/11/9707528/finland-poverty-united-states


ANT 7 said:


> Communism does not work, even when you try to hide the fact what it really is, by calling it something else.
> 
> Our problem is a select group of politicians, banksters, presstitutes and CEO'S.......not capitalism.


[HEADING=2]Denmark, Finland, and Sweden are proof that poverty in the US doesn't have to be this high[/HEADING]


----------



## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

bethswannns said:


> https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/11/11/9707528/finland-poverty-united-states
> [HEADING=2]Denmark, Finland, and Sweden are proof that poverty in the US doesn't have to be this high[/HEADING]


Denmark is rated by heritage to have a more free market economy than the USA (#8 vs #17). Finland (#20) and Sweden (#22) are within a few positions of the USA.

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking?version=294
When Maduro was in power I remember a lot of people saying "This proves Democratic socialism works ". And then when it didn't everyone said "Oh it wasn't real socialism." Cuba lovers abound however.

Where do countries that reject the free market rank?
#178 Venezuela, #179 Cuba, and #180 North Korea hold last places on Heritage.



bethswannns said:


> Essential/necessities (gas, food, house, transportation, education etc) are needed to be operated under socialism while the nonessential things like Iphone, TV etc can be capitalism..


Many countries have tried to fix prices for food and other essentials and the result is nearly always the same: Shortages. Especially during national disasters. Given free market activity, when a natural disaster strikes, the rich get served first and the poor get served second, but likely within days. This is because people see a profit incentive and will transport goods to areas where shortages exist due to the promise of increased sales prices. When the government fixes prices, shortages tend to last weeks.


----------



## Woohaa (Jan 15, 2017)

Uber's Guber said:


> Democrats are great at creating policies that harm the job market. Biden's first roll as president was to halt the building of the wall and open the border, killing those construction jobs and allowing more immigrants to come in and compete for fewer jobs. Biden also halted the Keystone pipeline, killing those construction jobs and creating higher fuel prices which affect other businesses as well; that trucker who brings food to your table is dealing with higher fuel cost, and you the consumer will be paying for it. Furthermore, Biden's promises to raise taxes will ship more jobs overseas to other countries who are more tax-friendly. But hey, Biden is too busy kissing Iran's ass to worry about America. &#128516;


Meh. Republicans are good at creating low paying jobs that keep workers beneath the poverty line.


----------



## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

ANT 7 said:


> Retrain for what jobs exactly ?
> 
> This is the constant mantra of the Canadian government urchins who alwyas say retrain, retrain, retrain.......but as no jobs are available.......


Search 43,335 jobs now available in Toronto, ON on Indeed.com, the world's largest job site.

I get dozens of job offers every month


----------



## JeanOcelot0 (Dec 30, 2020)

Uber's Guber said:


> Democrats are great at creating policies that harm the job market. Biden's first roll as president was to halt the building of the wall and open the border, killing those construction jobs and allowing more immigrants to come in and compete for fewer jobs. Biden also halted the Keystone pipeline, killing those construction jobs and creating higher fuel prices which affect other businesses as well; that trucker who brings food to your table is dealing with higher fuel cost, and you the consumer will be paying for it. Furthermore, Biden's promises to raise taxes will ship more jobs overseas to other countries who are more tax-friendly. But hey, Biden is too busy kissing Iran's ass to worry about America. &#128516;


So you're saying The Wall is a good jobs program?  How about instead we build The Grid that we will need when renewables really take over?



bethswannns said:


> Why are many capitalist countries GDP rate so low now? It looks like it stopped working now. Capitalism allows innovation and ideas to flourish but at the same time, they are look out for your money. We know iphone only cost 100 bucks in raw material but they decided to charge you 1k for a dum phone. If it cost 100 bucks to make, they should only sell it for 120 bucks at max. Time for adaption.
> 
> 60k use in Vietnam you will live like a king. but in USA 60k is nothing...


Even 10 dollar is good there:


----------



## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

bethswannns said:


> Vietnam is operated under a capitalism-socialism hybrid imo, not full communism/socialism. Same as China. Many countries have some degree of capitalism. Whatever these countries do to achieve the high GDP rate % every year, we should learn and follow them.
> 
> Capitalism is not the end game as everything will evolve and we will adapt to it in life. We are seeing a huge income margin between the rich and average joes. The top 1-3% of the people control most of the money supply.. This is why the young generation supports socialism because things are getting too expensive.. real estate, education, low wages..


China has slave labor..........
Are you saying we should go back to that... I don't think so...


----------



## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

islanddriver said:


> China has slave labor..........
> Are you saying we should go back to that... I don't think so...


Democratic socialism is different from communism. 80 million voted for Biden vs 75 mil for Trump. Biden/Liberals are majority, that means Democratic socialism is current the commanding ideology in the USA


----------



## ANT 7 (Oct 14, 2018)

Amos69 said:


> Search 43,335 jobs now available in Toronto, ON on Indeed.com, the world's largest job site.
> 
> I get dozens of job offers every month


When over 3 million people in this country (9.4% based on how the liberal government reports stats) are out of work, the number of 43,335 available jobs (most of which are retail and low paying) sort of becomes a ridiculous rebuttal.



bethswannns said:


> Democratic socialism is different from communism. 80 million voted for Biden vs 75 mil for Trump. Biden/Liberals are majority, that means Democratic socialism is current the commanding ideology in the USA


See what I meant by my other post.......it's being called "democratic socialism" now by this poster and pointing out the voting numbers is a meagre attempt to give it some sort of moral credibility........if only the people in the gulags could have held the same opinion........but they can't, because they are all dead.

Communism doesn't care though, because it is all about the control of people by those who are mentally ill sociopaths.......however, that doesn't include Biden, or Pelosi, or AOC, etc, because they have an exemption from that classification, that you useful idiots are not entitled too.

The left wing whack jobs that live among us are, and have always been, exactly the same since this ideological plague came to be over 100 years ago. People who want somethng for nothing and will lie to your face to get it. They are grifters. People that won't read history, for the truth triggers an immense internal debate within them. I mean, after all, what can you expect from someone who calls National *Socialism* a right wing movement when you are winning the argument ???

The lost jobs are not coming back this time, because it is by design.

We are entering our very own "dekulakization " phase............and if some of you who had voted Democrat paid attention in history class, well, you'd see this "movement" for what it really is. Pure unvarnished evil.


----------



## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

ANT 7 said:


> When over 3 million people in this country (9.4% based on how the liberal government reports stats) are out of work, the number of 43,335 available jobs (most of which are retail and low paying) sort of becomes a ridiculous rebuttal.
> 
> 
> See what I meant by my other post.......it's being called "democratic socialism" now by this poster and pointing out the voting numbers is a meagre attempt to give it some sort of moral credibility........if only the people in the gulags could have held the same opinion........but they can't, because they are all dead.
> ...


There is a difference.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

bethswannns said:


> There is a difference.


The USA is a representative republic. Citizens do not vote on issues except under rare conditions in state or local elections. Same with the USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, etc. They would be described as democratic socialists under the definitions these videos provide.

Are we to throw out the US Constitution? If not, can you explain the 10th Amendment?

The US post office was described as a socialist business. If it were a private business, it would have closed long ago. Fed Ex and UPS would have survived. The government is inefficient. Too much bureaucracy. By the way, the USPS was established in the constitution. In fact, federal roads we allowed due to the constitutional authority to deliver posts. The army was described as a socialist organization. The army provides for a common defense, also in the constitution. The inefficiencies of the military is legendary. If business was run as the military is run, we'd fail to exist as a country.

But never mind that, bring on the bread lines. I want to be told what, how much, and when to eat.


----------



## ANT 7 (Oct 14, 2018)

ROFL.....attack of the left wing memes.......it's obvious when someone lacking intellect or critical reasoning skills can't defend their position with their own words, because they don't know any.

The very definition of...........a useful idiot.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Also created a race-to-the-bottom for community business, massive move towards disposable 'junk from china' (Bunker fuel oil alone in Shipping Transport of $1 junk is a massive contribution to Greenhouse Gasses -It has been estimated that just one of these *container ships*, the length of around six football pitches, *can* produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars.),
> 
> Walmart has a history of busting any kind of labour movements to improve quality and wages inside his store-empire, created gawdawful violence and nonsense around black Friday, further contributed to the deaths off city-centre commerce by creating massive stores on the fringes of suburbs and cities. Walmart might have provided a lot of jobs, but they are shitty minimum wage jobs. He may have provided a lot of 'cheap goods' but this all comes at the cost of the environment and local production. Furthermore in the CD music and DVD movie age, walmarts purchasing power created a censorship by scale issue due to their puritanical values systems, thus devaluing art and expression and diversity. I really hate this company.
> 
> ...


Where do you shop for socks? Overpay or possibly make your own?

If it is cheaper for consumers to buy products shipped from thousands of miles away, that is what consumers gonna do.

Perhaps you could finance an automated sock making factory in the US that could compete with foreign manufacturers.


----------



## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

bsliv said:


> According a study released about two weeks ago by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2025 would put 1.4 million Americans out of work. The first to lose their job will be those with no or low skills and/or education, the very people that are supposed to be helped by raising the minimum wage. Of course, prices will be higher with increased worker wages.
> 
> Some businesses will close, as demonstrated by some Kroger stores in California closing in response to the law they must pay employees $4 more per hour due to the Covid crisis.
> 
> ...


This reigh wing mythical argument against raising the minimum wage has been raised each and every time the measure has come up. The last time it was raised was was 12 years ago in 2009 to a very whopping $7.29 from a measly $6.55 per hour.
When I started working as a student it was $1.25 an hour in the early 60's and did not go to $2.00 an hour till 1974 to welcome the Vietnam Vets coming back to start their lives. 
*Why do you people continue to advocate against your interest time and time again?*

It may not affect you at this time, but think about the people that live on poverty wages today.

https://www.businessinsider.com/debunking-common-arguments-against-15-minimum-wage-2021-2


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> Where do you shop for socks? Overpay or possibly make your own?
> 
> If it is cheaper for consumers to buy products shipped from thousands of miles away, that is what consumers gonna do.
> 
> Perhaps you could finance an automated sock making factory in the US that could compete with foreign manufacturers.


I go to to a liquidation shop called WINNERS, and get brand name stuff at extreme mark down. Meaning clothing that nobody else wanted. It's socks. The other place is a 'work place' store for construction companies. High Quality warm socks. Not cheap but last for so long, you win in the end.

What the USA has lost is a balance of quality/value/price. Favouring low-quality disposable junk from walmart (or H&M for that matter) is hard on the environment, and you probably are not saving much because it falls apart so fast.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Big Lou said:


> This reigh wing mythical argument against raising the minimum wage


I believe in open borders. I believe in open immigration. I believe the possession of anything should be legal. Right wing? No! I'm speaking from an economic point of view.



Big Lou said:


> *Why do you people continue to advocate against your interest time and time again?*


Why do you people continue to advocate for the policies of a politician time and again? They are trying to stay in office, not make life better for their constituents. My best interest comes along with a strong economy.

Earlier this month, the non partisan Congressional Budget Office said raising the minimum wage would lead to the loss of 1.4 million jobs. That's slightly more than 1.3 million they estimated in 2019. What type of employee will lose a job? The least skilled. The least skilled are generally the lowest paid (minimum wage worker). A $15 minimum wage will have someone entering the job market unemployable. If one looks at progressing wages as one acquires skills, its similar to a ladder. Raising the minimum wage is equivalent to raising the first rung in the ladder. Some won't have the ability necessary to reach that first rung.

I started my first job as a freshman in high school at $0.50 per hour. I had no skills. I had no experience. I had no education. As I acquired skills, experience and education, my wage increased. I bought a car before I could get a driver's license. I was happy. My employer was happy. I suppose those that don't understand how business works were sad. If my employer listened to the ignorant, he wouldn't have given me the opportunity to earn money and develop responsibility. By the way, no one held a gun to my head saying I had to take the job. No one held a gun to my employer saying to hire me. But you want to hold a gun to my employer's head saying he can't pay me the wage we agreed upon. After repeated warnings to my employer, would you pull the trigger? Or maybe just send him to a reeducation camp?

If the minimum wage was $7.25 in an area and someone was being paid that wage and they managed to keep their job, they'd get $15. Someone making 50% more than minimum would go from $10.87 to $22.50. Someone making double the minimum would go from $14.50 to $30.00. Who can afford to stay in business with those types of increases? On top of that, their wholesalers would experience a similar burden. A much higher cost of labor plus a much higher cost of raw materials equals out of business. Kroger closed a couple stores in California saying the forced hazard pay increase didn't make economic sense. They also closed a couple Seattle stores for the same reason. Not all there stores closed but a few did. That's just one company in one industry in areas of high wages already. The hazard pay increase, percentage wise, was trivial compared to what $15 is compared to $7.25.

There is a market rate for all products, including labor. Raising the minimum wage is a classic example of a 'feel good' law. In this case, it hurts those the most its designed to help. But the politicians will get votes because many, not just minimum wage earners, will get a wage increase. That wage increase won't amount to much when factoring in the increased cost of living.

In addition, raising the minimum wage makes the US less competitive in the world market for both goods and services.

If one wants to help the poorest among us, don't make them unemployable. I'm not for welfare but some types will help the poor while allowing businesses to continue. A universal basic income is one plan. A supplemental income is another. An earned income tax credit is yet another. I'm sure there are many others.

Stop listening to those that are trying to buy your vote. Their motives are questionable at best.

The 5 myths in your link are laughable.

If raising the minimum to $15 is good, wouldn't raising it to $50 be better? No! The rules of economics don't kick in at a specific rate. The rules of economics are always in effect. If raising it to $50 is bad, raising it to $15 is less bad, keeping it stable is better, and removing it is best.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics,* 1.9%* of all hourly paid, non self employed workers earned wages at or below $7.25. In 1980, 13% earned the federal minimum wage or less.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I go to to a liquidation shop called WINNERS, and get brand name stuff at extreme mark down. Meaning clothing that nobody else wanted. It's socks. The other place is a 'work place' store for construction companies. High Quality warm socks. Not cheap but last for so long, you win in the end.
> 
> What the USA has lost is a balance of quality/value/price. Favouring low-quality disposable junk from walmart (or H&M for that matter) is hard on the environment, and you probably are not saving much because it falls apart so fast.


So, your socks were made in America?


----------



## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

bsliv said:


> I believe in open borders. I believe in open immigration. I believe the possession of anything should be legal. Right wing? No! I'm speaking from an economic point of view.
> 
> Why do you people continue to advocate for the policies of a politician time and again? They are trying to stay in office, not make life better for their constituents. My best interest comes along with a strong economy.
> 
> ...


You point is well articulated and I appreciate a well thought out argument without the usual right wing insults that go along with them.
Of course, I do disagree with your position. Each and every time, idea of a hike in the national standard for a minimum wage is opposed by the same argument and it always proves to fail when the standard is put into place. The world is not the same from the $1.00 an hour in 1970 to at $7.25 in 2009, which we're in today. 
We didn't have the national behemoths like Wal-Mart, Target and the other mega billion dollar corporations that will only move when the government mandates them to move. Otherwise they always fall back on their favorite go to word....compliance. 
Have you considered the 2.6 billion dollar subsidy we, the tax payers, pay towards Wal-Mart alone? That's for government programs the full time employees qualify and take advantage of. That's just one company.

It's just plain silly to ask,,,, Why not $50.00 an hour?

I don't know what the magic number is, but I do know that $15.00 an hour is a mere drop in the bucket to Los Angeles, San Francisco or New York City compared to Mississippi, Alabama or Louisiana. It's complicated, but to relegate this issue to simple one liners is not helpful. I have numbers I could throw around but to what point? 
As I said, I don't know the answer or the number, but there is a segment of our population, $15.00 an hour is a game changer for their families.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bsliv said:


> Kroger closed a couple stores in California saying the forced hazard pay increase didn't make economic sense. They also closed a couple Seattle stores for the same reason. Not all there stores closed but a few did. That's just one company in one industry in areas of high wages already.












https://www.businessinsider.com/how...s-hero-pay-reveals-corporate-greed-2021-2?amp
Those sure are some high wages.

Especially Kroger.



bsliv said:


> According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics,* 1.9%* of all hourly paid, non self employed workers earned wages at or below $7.25. In 1980, 13% earned the federal minimum wage or less.


Ya think maybe it's because TWENTY NINE states have a HIGHER than federal minimum wage?

&#129300;

Now,

why is ANYONE earning LESS than the federal minimum wage?


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Big Lou said:


> always proves to fail when the standard is put into place


Sound economic principles don't fail. When the price of an item increases, fewer of the items will be bought and sold.



Big Lou said:


> 2.6 billion dollar subsidy


Got a reputable source?

Even if true, and I doubt it, it would be better for the economy overall and Walmart employees in particular to continue to provide welfare to the poorest employees and allow the company to provide low cost products and continued employment for all employees. Raising the minimum wage would induce layoffs of the least productive employees and raise prices to everyone, which will mean less products sold and even fewer employees. Its a vicious circle. And guess who's on the hook for unemployment payments.



Big Lou said:


> It's just plain silly to ask,,,, Why not $50.00 an hour?


My point was economic principles don't kick in at a certain level, they are always present. The larger the change in one element, the larger the change in another element. For instance, raising the price of a loaf of bread by $0.05 will cause a few less sales. Raising the price to $5.00 will cause the bread market to collapse. Its sorta like raising the minimum wage to $15 in an area that has a $14 minimum already in place, only a few jobs will be lost. Raising the minimum to $15 in an area where $7.25 was in effect, would further depress the area. Same principle shows its effects, just to a greater degree due to the greater change.



Big Lou said:


> $15.00 an hour is a game changer for their families.


If one starts a family while earning minimum wage, they made a poor choice. Poor choices should not be rewarded. Maybe have both parents get a job. Maybe have a kid get a job. Maybe increase the EITC. Don't make both parents unemployed! Don't raise the price of their products to everyone, that hurts poor people the most. I doubt Elon Musk shops at Walmart. I know people on welfare shop at Walmart. Keep prices low by keeping costs low. Keep people employed.



observer said:


> Those sure are some high wages.
> Post automatically merged: Today at 12:13 PM
> Especially Kroger.


What is the minimum wage in Long Beach? $8.15? Its $12 in Seattle and Kroger closed 2 stores out of 16 (I think). That's 12.5% of their employees out of work in Seattle. I'd imagine the stores they closed were the least profitable. Businesses don't close for no reason. Their purpose is to make money. If they don't make money, they close. If they can make money with a safer investment (savings account, stock market, etc.), they close.



observer said:


> Ya think maybe it's because TWENTY NINE states have a HIGHER than federal minimum wage?


Ahhh. So states and localities can change their minimum wage. Are you suggesting what's right for California might not be right for Mississippi? Doesn't one size fit all? Or does one size fit no one?



observer said:


> why is ANYONE earning LESS than the federal minimum wage


Its called working under the table or a black market in labor. Some jobs aren't worth the mandated minimum but there are people willing to do them. Some jobs are done for $0, the training is enough of a benefit. Want to see a high black market? Raise the cost of products above market cost. Legal marijuana is a good example. The black market exists because taxes raise the price higher than market levels.

There are better ways to help the poor than putting a large percentage of them out of work while increasing the cost of living to the same poor.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

It seems every jurisdiction that has raised the minimum wage has done fine, WITHOUT all the boogeymen scare tactics that always get trotted out, coming to fruition!


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> It seems every jurisdiction that has raised the minimum wage has done fine, WITHOUT all the boogeymen scare tactics that always get trotted out, coming to fruition!


Seems that fifteen bucks doesn't go as far in the LA basin as in the Tug River Valley.

Inflation in the red states and no effect in the blue states.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> Seems that fifteen bucks doesn't go as far in the LA basin as in the Tug River Valley.
> 
> Inflation in the red states and no effect in the blue states.


Last time I checked, the finanances, healthcare expectations and run-away poverty of red-states is a hot-garbage fire. They could use a $15-per-hour wage at the Wallyworld.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Last time I checked, the finanances, healthcare expectations and run-away poverty of red-states is a hot-garbage fire. They could use a $15-per-hour wage at the Wallyworld.


Seems raising minimum wage results in a loss of jobs.

Some get more and others lose everything.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Judge and Jury said:


> Seems raising minimum wage results in a loss of jobs.
> 
> Some get more and others lose everything.


Exactly. There are better ways to help the poor with less harm to the poor than a high minimum wage.


----------



## JeanOcelot0 (Dec 30, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> But we got this subgenre of music, "New Orlean's Bounce". So there is that.


I remember a few years ago, community leaders were trying to get Wal-Mart into putting a store in the central city. I think that because their other store in NOLA (i.e., NO East) had so much "leakage", they were wary about putting another one in the city.


----------



## Carlsbad Mitch (Feb 15, 2020)

JeanOcelot0 said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/road-to-recovery/2021/02/17/unemployed-workers-retrainingmy opinion: Retraining? What, so that the level of unemployable skills is higher?


It's going to be a long recession once government stops subsidizing the economy!


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bsliv said:


> What is the minimum wage in Long Beach? $8.15? Its $12 in Seattle and Kroger closed 2 stores out of 16 (I think). That's 12.5% of their employees out of work in Seattle. I'd imagine the stores they closed were the least profitable.


Thirteen last year

Yea but that's not what you or Kroger said. You both said they were closed because of hazard pay.

~~~
"Kroger closed a couple stores in California saying the forced hazard pay increase didn't make economic sense. They also closed a couple Seattle stores for the same reason."
~~~


bsliv said:


> Businesses don't close for no reason. Their purpose is to make money. If they don't make money, they close. If they can make money with a safer investment (savings account, stock market, etc.), they close.


Then they should say they were unprofitable and not try to scam people with lies.

They closed because they were NOT able to compete with other grocery stores in the area.


bsliv said:


> Ahhh. So states and localities can change their minimum wage. Are you suggesting what's right for California might not be right for Mississippi? Doesn't one size fit all? Or does one size fit no one?


Some states and localities refuse to raise their minimum wage, that's why there is a Federal Minimum Wage.


bsliv said:


> Its called working under the table or a black market in labor. Some jobs aren't worth the mandated minimum but there are people willing to do them. Some jobs are done for $0, the training is enough of a benefit. Want to see a high black market? Raise the cost of products above market cost. Legal marijuana is a good example. The black market exists because taxes raise the price higher than market levels.


Oh please. I'm sure drug dealers report their employee pay to the Feds.

Lol.


bsliv said:


> There are better ways to help the poor than putting a large percentage of them out of work while increasing the cost of living to the same poor.


Sure there is, we can raise taxes.

















I didn't want to rewrite that last post.


























That's the lot that was recently cleared, about two acres. The store is on about 3 acres. It's all going to be redeveloped together. The parking lot I parked on is another 3-4 acres, it's also available. The parking lot is probly 30 times bigger than the medical building that is there.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

observer said:


> Thirteen last year


What did you post a chart saying Kroger paid $8.15 when minimum wage is $13?



observer said:


> Then they should say they were unprofitable and not try to scam people with lies.


They became unprofitable due to a dictated hike in their costs.



observer said:


> Some states and localities refuse to raise their minimum wage, that's why there is a Federal Minimum Wage.


There is a federal minimum due to politician pandering to the uneducated. Speaking of federal, can you explain the meaning of the 10th Amendment of the Bill of Rights?

The Bill of Rights was designed to prevent a large and abusive federal government.



observer said:


> Oh please. I'm sure drug dealers report their employee pay to the Feds.


OK, you tell me why some are making under the federal minimum if its not 'under the table' wages.



observer said:


> Sure there is, we can raise taxes.


Having higher prices of goods and services is the equivalent of having higher taxes. Both reduce the consumer's ability to purchase.

I'm not sure what your pasting a prior post means. I know the primary goal of a business is to earn profit. No profit = no business. Some businesses will have lower costs than others and can prosper in a particular environment. Some businesses are will to take a short term loss in order to have a long term gain. Some businesses have better management than others. Some businesses will beat their head against a wall and go bankrupt before closing. A camel can only carry so much straw. Eventually, there is a breaking point. It won't be the same for all.

*Losing 1.4 million jobs while raising the cost of living does not sound like a good proposition.*


----------



## MikhailCA (Dec 8, 2019)

Judge and Jury said:


> Where do you shop for socks? Overpay or possibly make your own?
> 
> If it is cheaper for consumers to buy products shipped from thousands of miles away, that is what consumers gonna do.
> 
> Perhaps you could finance an automated sock making factory in the US that could compete with foreign manufacturers.


Import taxes for socks and tada we have sock manufacturing in this country.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bsliv said:


> What did you post a chart saying Kroger paid $8.15 when minimum wage is $13?


I was hoping you or someone else would post because my post was already too long.

I posted that chart to show how little Kroger pays compared to other stores.

You stated " that's one company in one industry of high wages". The company you lauded for "high wages" is actually the one that pays the least.

Now, take out the 300 stores Kroger owns in California out of that equation. What does that do?

It brings their wages even FURTHER lower than the chart.

ALL of their competitors not only operate and compete in California but they do so paying HIGHER wages than Kroger.


bsliv said:


> They became unprofitable due to a dictated hike in their costs.


The stores they closed were already unprofitable because Kroger could not compete with the other grocery stores in the area.

Those stores did not close, EVEN WITH the hazard pay.


bsliv said:


> There is a federal minimum due to politician pandering to the uneducated. Speaking of federal, can you explain the meaning of the 10th Amendment of the Bill of Rights?
> 
> The Bill of Rights was designed to prevent a large and abusive federal government.


But there is a Federal Minimum Wage. States may raise the minimum wage but it cannot be lower.


bsliv said:


> OK, you tell me why some are making under the federal minimum if its not 'under the table' wages.


I'm not the one that wrote that anyone was making less than minimum wage, you did.

No one should be earning less than the federal minimum wage.

No one.


bsliv said:


> Having higher prices of goods and services is the equivalent of having higher taxes. Both reduce the consumer's ability to purchase.


Either way, we pay for it. Companies should be paying at least enough for their workers to live on.

They need to lower the billions that they pay their stock holders or WE WILL with higher taxes that WE WILL PAY.


bsliv said:


> I'm not sure what your pasting a prior post means.


To show that you already tried your "they closed because of hazard pay" argument and it's not true. Yet you keep repeating a lie spread by Kroger.


bsliv said:


> I know the primary goal of a business is to earn profit. No profit = no business. Some businesses will have lower costs than others and can prosper in a particular environment. Some businesses are will to take a short term loss in order to have a long term gain. Some businesses have better management than others. Some businesses will beat their head against a wall and go bankrupt before closing. A camel can only carry so much straw. Eventually, there is a breaking point. It won't be the same for all.


Yea, then Kroger should own up to it. They should say, we could not compete with Walmart, Vons, Pavilions, Stater Brothers and our other competitors, EVEN THOUGH WE PAY OUR EMPLOYEES LESS THAN THEY DO.


bsliv said:


> *Losing 1.4 million jobs while raising the cost of living does not sound like a good proposition.*


Neither does raising taxes to pay for people that don't earn enough to live.

Don't tell me YOU want to pay higher taxes.


----------



## Uber2018Canada (Jul 30, 2018)

Brave New World(1980)-Full Length Movie.mp4





[HEADING=2]Aldous Huxley interviewed by Mike Wallace : 1958 (Full)[/HEADING]


----------



## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Judge and Jury said:


> Seems raising minimum wage results in a loss of jobs.
> 
> Some get more and others lose everything.


That doesn't happen

So how does it seem that way?


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

observer said:


> I posted that chart to show how little Kroger pays compared to other stores.


So, why would anyone work for Kroger? I assume they're not forcing employment. I assume employees voluntarily work there. Why?



observer said:


> Now, take out the 300 stores Kroger owns in California out of that equation. What does that do?
> 
> It brings their wages even FURTHER lower than the chart.


Yes, 0 stores = 0 employees = $0 per hour = higher unemployment.



observer said:


> But there is a Federal Minimum Wage. States may raise the minimum wage but it cannot be lower.


Again, explain to me the 10th Amendment as it relates to price fixing.



observer said:


> I'm not the one that wrote that anyone was making less than minimum wage, you did.
> 
> No one should be earning less than the federal minimum wage.
> 
> No one.


Perhaps. But many have, many are, and many will. The higher the minimum wage, more will work and collect a wage but not contribute taxes. My first job in the 1970's was a black market job. I gladly accepted it. My employer gladly paid for it. If two people, with full knowledge of the market, agree that a transaction is mutually beneficial, why should a third party step in and say no?



observer said:


> Companies should be paying at least enough for their workers to live on.


Wrong. Employees should seek jobs that satisfies their needs. I'm not my brother's keeper. Its not my responsibility to ensure you acquire enough skill to provide for yourself. I don't want to force you to do anything. You do what you think is right. I'll do the same.



observer said:


> They need to lower the billions that they pay their stock holders


Wrong. People make investments with the expectations of a return on investment. There are many investment opportunities. One could start a grocery store. One could buy a specific stock. One could buy bonds. One could invest in a savings account. They all have varying rates of returns and varying rates of risks. If the fed raises the interest rate, the stock market declines as less risky investments have a similar return. Raise the interest rate high enough and the market will tank followed by a recession/depression. Let the market be the market. Many retirement accounts are invested in the stock market. Don't create a depression.



observer said:


> To show that you already tried your "they closed because of hazard pay" argument and it's not true. Yet you keep repeating a lie spread by Kroger.


Kroger closed after a mandated higher wage hike. Kroger claimed they closed in response to a mandated wage hike. Do you know better? Are they doing a disservice to their stockholders? If so, their board of directors will change management. Are they lying? Why? If so, wouldn't their stockholders also recognize the lie and faulty management?



observer said:


> Yea, then Kroger should own up to it. They should say, we could not compete with Walmart, Vons, Pavilions, Stater Brothers and our other competitors, EVEN THOUGH WE PAY OUR EMPLOYEES LESS THAN THEY DO.


Think about that. If they have a lower cost they would have a higher profit, all else being equal. Profitable businesses don't close, unless the profit is lower than a safer investment. If I invest $1 million in a business but only make $10,000 a year, I'm closing and putting the money in a savings account.



observer said:


> Neither does raising taxes to pay for people that don't earn enough to live.
> 
> Don't tell me YOU want to pay higher taxes.


Does anyone want to pay higher taxes? Of course not.

1.4 million unemployed will require higher taxes to pay for their unemployment. A higher cost of living is also a cost to the consumer along with reduced production due to higher prices and the principle that higher prices means buying less. Three negatives borne by the taxpayer that reduce the quality of living. What if we could avoid losing 1.4 million jobs and keep the cost of living low and raising taxes slightly?



Amos69 said:


> That doesn't happen
> 
> So how does it seem that way?


It does happen. Labor is a commodity as much as bread. A higher cost means less demand. Less demand means fewer workers required to produce the quantity necessary to satisfy the demand.

McDonalds said they are not against a wage increase. That is a marketing ploy. They further explained they will respond with use of more technology, a euphemism for automation (less employees), and higher prices. More unemployment along with higher prices is not a good combination.

Economic freedom promotes personal and political freedom. Mandating price fixing promotes an overbearing government and tyranny.

A government capable of giving you what you want is capable of taking from you what it wants. Promote freedom, resist mandates. The free market works. Keep government out of business, except for health, safety, and maybe environmental concerns.


----------



## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

bsliv said:


> So, why would anyone work for Kroger? I assume they're not forcing employment. I assume employees voluntarily work there. Why?
> 
> Yes, 0 stores = 0 employees = $0 per hour = higher unemployment.
> 
> ...


In areas that have raised the min wage job growth is the norm not loss.

That is an unsupported right wing talking point.

Job growth even in specific industry.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Amos69 said:


> In areas that have raised the min wage job growth is the norm not loss.
> 
> That is an unsupported right wing talking point.
> 
> Job growth even in specific industry.


Wrong. It is a basic economic principle.

As Uber drivers, it gasoline price goes up (more than doubles?) and revenue remains unchanged, will there be more or less miles driven?

Job growth is the norm in a free market with an increasing population. Government interference can impair job growth and yet job growth continues, albeit at a reduced rate.

The very liberal CNBC reports as such. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/raising-minimum-wage-to-15-would-cost-1point4-million-jobs-cbo-says.html#:~:text=Raising minimum wage to $15 would cost 1.4 million jobs, CBO says,-Published Mon, Feb&text=A rise in the minimum,Congressional Budget Office said Monday.


----------



## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

bsliv said:


> Wrong. It is a basic economic principle.
> 
> As Uber drivers, it gasoline price goes up (more than doubles?) and revenue remains unchanged, will there be more or less miles driven?
> 
> ...


Wrong That is a theory that is not bourne out in reality. The very liberal POV is also not right lots of the time. Seattle has been a wage leader for the last decade or more. Individual employee growth was what really happened. More employees not less, even among independent owned restaurants.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Amos69 said:


> Wrong That is a theory that is not bourne out in reality. The very liberal POV is also not right lots of the time. Seattle has been a wage leader for the last decade or more. Individual employee growth was what really happened. More employees not less, even among independent owned restaurants.


You must factor in more variables than raw numbers. The market rate of labor in Seattle is very as compared to the rest of the US. Yes, the number of employees increased but without the force of government demanding a certain wage, growth could have been even higher. *Companies did go out of business in response to the minimum wage hike.*

How would you respond to a cost increase with a fixed revenue?

How do you think your customers would respond to a price increase without a service increase?

If Uber charged double what they do now, would they get more or less riders?

If Uber charged half of what they do now, would they get more or less riders?


----------



## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

bsliv said:


> You must factor in more variables than raw numbers. The market rate of labor in Seattle is very as compared to the rest of the US. Yes, the number of employees increased but without the force of government demanding a certain wage, growth could have been even higher. *Companies did go out of business in response to the minimum wage hike.*
> 
> How would you respond to a cost increase with a fixed revenue?
> 
> ...


You are talking about three different issues and equating them as one. Min wage increases do not and in most instances have not equated to job losses.

Well except for sub par employees.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Amos69 said:


> You are talking about three different issues and equating them as one. Min wage increases do not and in most instances have not equated to job losses.
> 
> Well except for sub par employees.


https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/raising-minimum-wage-to-15-would-cost-1point4-million-jobs-cbo-says.html#:~:text=Raising minimum wage to $15 would cost 1.4 million jobs, CBO says,-Published Mon, Feb&text=A rise in the minimum,Congressional Budget Office said Monday.

Labor is a major cost to do business for large businesses. Gasoline is a cost to do business for Uber drivers. Same principle - when cost goes up, less will buy. Ever plot a demand curve?


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bsliv said:


> So, why would anyone work for Kroger? I assume they're not forcing employment. I assume employees voluntarily work there. Why?


No idea, I wouldn't.


bsliv said:


> Yes, 0 stores = 0 employees = $0 per hour = higher unemployment.


Stores that were ALREADY going to close also = 0 employees.


bsliv said:


> Again, explain to me the 10th Amendment as it relates to price fixing.


It doesn't relate.

The Supreme Court already ruled the Fed minimum wage is constitutional


bsliv said:


> Perhaps. But many have, many are, and many will. The higher the minimum wage, more will work and collect a wage but not contribute taxes. My first job in the 1970's was a black market job. I gladly accepted it. My employer gladly paid for it. If two people, with full knowledge of the market, agree that a transaction is mutually beneficial, why should a third party step in and say no?


That doesn't make any sense. Are you now making the argument that more people will work if the minimum wage is increased?

I thought you said millions would lose their jobs.

We aren't in the 70s anymore. 


bsliv said:


> Wrong. Employees should seek jobs that satisfies their needs. I'm not my brother's keeper. Its not my responsibility to ensure you acquire enough skill to provide for yourself. I don't want to force you to do anything. You do what you think is right. I'll do the same.


Yes and businesses should meet those needs and not pass them off on taxpayers.


bsliv said:


> Wrong. People make investments with the expectations of a return on investment. There are many investment opportunities. One could start a grocery store. One could buy a specific stock. One could buy bonds. One could invest in a savings account. They all have varying rates of returns and varying rates of risks. If the fed raises the interest rate, the stock market declines as less risky investments have a similar return. Raise the interest rate high enough and the market will tank followed by a recession/depression. Let the market be the market. Many retirement accounts are invested in the stock market. Don't create a depression.


Investors should earn a return on their investments but not at the expense of taxpayers.


bsliv said:


> Kroger closed after a mandated higher wage hike. Kroger claimed they closed in response to a mandated wage hike. Do you know better? Are they doing a disservice to their stockholders? If so, their board of directors will change management. Are they lying? Why? If so, wouldn't their stockholders also recognize the lie and faulty management?


Kroger WAS ALREADY going to close those stores.

What they claim and what is the truth are two different things.

If they were "closed because of hazard pay" why didn't they close their other eight stores?

Why didn't any of their compeitors also close stores?

I know the situation better than you do. I've actually shopped in both the stores they are closing.

I know exactly where they are located in relation to their competitors.

Competitors that aren't closing.

:rollseyes:

And cut in to their dividends? Ya really think investors would care about Krogers lying. &#128514;


bsliv said:


> Think about that. If they have a lower cost they would have a higher profit, all else being equal. Profitable businesses don't close, unless the profit is lower than a safer investment. If I invest $1 million in a business but only make $10,000 a year, I'm closing and putting the money in a savings account.


Exactly, all else being equal they aren't profitable because they can't compete with other grocery stores. They should shut down and they were going to since before the pandemic.


bsliv said:


> Does anyone want to pay higher taxes? Of course not.
> 
> 1.4 million unemployed will require higher taxes to pay for their unemployment. A higher cost of living is also a cost to the consumer along with reduced production due to higher prices and the principle that higher prices means buying less. Three negatives borne by the taxpayer that reduce the quality of living. What if we could avoid losing 1.4 million jobs and keep the cost of living low and raising taxes slightly?


We already pay taxes to maintain employees that earn so little that they need food stamps and housing. How many would be kicked off our taxes if minimum wage were raised?



bsliv said:


> It does happen. Labor is a commodity as much as bread. A higher cost means less demand. Less demand means fewer workers required to produce the quantity necessary to satisfy the demand.
> 
> McDonalds said they are not against a wage increase. That is a marketing ploy. They further explained they will respond with use of more technology, a euphemism for automation (less employees), and higher prices. More unemployment along with higher prices is not a good combination.


Mcdonalds will automate with or without an increase.


bsliv said:


> Economic freedom promotes personal and political freedom. Mandating price fixing promotes an overbearing government and tyranny.
> 
> A government capable of giving you what you want is capable of taking from you what it wants. Promote freedom, resist mandates. The free market works. Keep government out of business, except for health, safety, and maybe environmental concerns.


There is no such thing as a free market.


----------



## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

bsliv said:


> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/raising-minimum-wage-to-15-would-cost-1point4-million-jobs-cbo-says.html#:~:text=Raising minimum wage to $15 would cost 1.4 million jobs, CBO says,-Published Mon, Feb&text=A rise in the minimum,Congressional Budget Office said Monday.
> 
> Labor is a major cost to do business for large businesses. Gasoline is a cost to do business for Uber drivers. Same principle - when cost goes up, less will buy. Ever plot a demand curve?


MBA Foster school of business UW 1991

Reality is real no matter what you want to be true.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

observer said:


> The Supreme Court already ruled the Fed minimum wage is constitutional


Do you know the circumstances behind it? FDR proposed increasing the number of justices in the supreme court. Suddenly, the supreme court followed his wishes despite their interpretation (literal) of the constitution. So is the 10th Amendment meaningless to you? How about the other 9 amendments?



observer said:


> That doesn't make any sense. Are you now making the argument that more people will work if the minimum wage is increased?


I'm making the argument that more will work under the table with a higher minimum wage. I'm making the argument that black market drugs will exist as long as taxes of legal drugs brings their legal price above the market price. I'm making the argument that setting the minimum wage below the market wage is irrelevant. I'm making the argument that setting the minimum wage above the market wage has negative effects on the economy. I'm making the argument that one size doesn't fit all.



observer said:


> I thought you said millions would lose their jobs.


1.4 million, according the the Congressional Budget Office. Will congress listen to them? Only if it gets them votes.



observer said:


> Yes and businesses should meet those needs and not pass them off on taxpayers.


Businesses should increase profits, as their owners/stockholders demand. Employees should increase their income, as their skills in the market allow.



observer said:


> Investors should earn a return on their investments but not at the expense of taxpayers.


Welfare is in control of congress, not business.



observer said:


> Kroger WAS ALREADY going to close those stores.


Speculation. If I want to know why a business closed, I'd listen to the business, not guess.



observer said:


> If they were "closed because of hazard pay" why didn't they close their other eight stores?


Location? Management? Area? I don't know. You don't know. Only Kroger knows. I know business does business to make a profit. I know business doesn't close if there is profit to be had.



observer said:


> I know exactly where they are located in relation to their competitors.
> 
> Competitors that aren't closing.


So, you tell me why Kroger would close. Remember, they only run the store to create profit. They won't close a store if there is profit to be had.



observer said:


> And cut in to their dividends? Ya really think investors would care about Krogers lying.


Investors only care about profit. If you had stock in Kroger, would you care what they said or how much your dividend was and how much the value of the stock increased/decreased? Its all about the money. That's business. Fari? That's not in the formula.



observer said:


> Exactly, all else being equal they aren't profitable because they can't compete with other grocery stores. They should shut down and they were going to since before the pandemic.


They would have shut down if they didn't see or anticipate a profit. Its about the money. That's business.



observer said:


> We already pay taxes to maintain employees that earn so little that they need food stamps and housing. How many would be kicked off our taxes if minimum wage were raised?


I believe the number people that would be brought above poverty would be 0.9 million. Read the report.



observer said:


> Mcdonalds will automate with or without an increase.


Not necessarily. One must factor the cost of the machine, maintenance of the machine, market acceptance of the machine vs market acceptance of the machine and cost of the employee. Since MacDonalds has not automated yet, I'd have to think with the current price structure, its doesn't make economic sense to replace employees with machines. But MacDonalds has that info, I don't.



observer said:


> There is no such thing as a free market.


Freedom can be measured in degrees. There is no cheap car. Cheap can be measure in degrees. Some thing a Porche is cheap. Compared to a McLaren, it is. US markets are free compared to North Korea. That doesn't mean the markets can't be freer from government manipulations.

If one wants to be compassionate to those with less ability, I understand. I agree. But to penalize 1.4 million of those with less ability, in addition to lower the standard of living for everyone, in order to benefit a few others, I don't agree.


----------



## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> It seems every jurisdiction that has raised the minimum wage has done fine, WITHOUT all the boogeymen scare tactics that always get trotted out, coming to fruition!


What was the unemployment rate both before and after the minimum wage hike? Do you have the stats? Most stats I've seen show that unemployment goes up with minimum wage increases, assuming that it is an "effective" minimum wage that raises the salary above what people are already making. Raising the federal minimum wage from $7.25 to $15 would have no effect in San Francisco since no one is paid as low as $15 in SF. Raising it to $10 would have no effect where I live since almost no one makes less than $10 even when the state minimum wage was $7.25. But raising it to $15 would probably come at the cost of some of the lower level service and warehouse jobs around here.

It's not like raising the minimum wage causes the apocalypse. But it does take away low-wage labor jobs from unskilled workers.


----------



## Buckiemohawk (Jun 23, 2015)

bethswannns said:


> Democratic socialism is different from communism. 80 million voted for Biden vs 75 mil for Trump. Biden/Liberals are majority, that means Democratic socialism is current the commanding ideology in the USA


Ummmm yeah ok. And no it's the same thing


----------

