# ‘lower fares generates more rides’ explanation doesn’t hold water



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hi Folks,

Looking over the announced 23% fare decrease effecti8ve 9 January&#8230;
If I'm figuring it correctly, the old fare was $1.25/mile
and the new fare is $0.96/mile -
which will net me around $0.75/mile after fees.

IRS calculates the cost per mile to drive to be $0.575/mi, accounting for fuel, maintenance, insurance and depreciation.

That leaves about $0.195/mile for me.

If I averaged 35 MPH for one hour of non-stop 'paid' driving, I would earn a total of $6.83.
And, of course, there's no such thing as non-stop paid driving.
On average you have to drive 2 miles to get paid for one mile.

*That brings the earnings under the new fares down to around $3.41/hr.*

The '_lower fares generates more rides_' explanation doesn't hold water, if driving 100% of an hour nets only $6.83.

Please explain to me how these new fares are an incentive for me to take my car on the road for Uber?


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

They've been going with this lie since the first rate cuts. Just like they're going with the $100,000/year driver earnings lie. The company is scum, the CEO is a lying scumbag asshole. It's the same old story.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Most people get it, but some will fall for the guarantees bullshit. That's what is Uber is counting on. They're about greed and deceit. The deceit is necessary to feed their greed.


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## DharmaBum (Jan 9, 2015)

There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics. Uber wants the drivers to believe that they will make more money after a while because more people will use the service. But it's still 75 cents a mile (in Charlotte) with increased depreciation and gasoline expenses to make the same money. If you can. I can handle making less money, but I won't drive my automobile for 75 cents a mile, nor for 'guaranteed' $12/hour off-peak. 
However, there may be many drivers who will, either because they can't/won't get another job, or do not truly understand their expenses and tax obligations.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

received nice 'on-point' replies from Uber regarding my note above - standard line: "lower fares=more rides = more driver money".

_My reply:_

Hi xxxxxxx -

Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately, as I illustrated in my note (below), since Uber cannot guarantee me the minimum one trip per hour - and my experience thus far with Uber has been less than that - the guaranteed hourly earnings is not meaningful in my area because it is unlikely to occur. With that in mind, all I am guaranteed is that I would earn 23% less per mile driving today than I earned yesterday.

The current promotion means that I will not be out and about for Uber during anything but the busiest of hours in the busiest of areas - which will leave this new Uber market under served by drivers.

That's a shame because it will force passengers to seek alternative sources of transportation.

*In fact, during non-peak hours, it would be more profitable for me to sit at home and make a tax deductible $1 per hour donation to my local food-bank than it would be for me to drive for Uber.*

Mathematics vs. Mythology - math wins every time.

Take care,


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## lu181 (Nov 3, 2014)

Most drivers don't actually need this income and do it for spare cash. I ask all that do not need this to stop driving at least for a while by going out during peek hrs you are giving uber what they need and hurting the drivers that depend on uber for primary income.. My city was not affected but I will not be driving we need to let our partners know that we are not going to accept this. Don't be greedy and go out even during surge a quick buck today is penny's tomorrow. Stop the talk and act


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## NickNolte (Dec 12, 2014)

I have a feeling a good lawyer will be suing uber. You shouldn't claim something is guaranteed unless it actually is. Just my $0.02. The samething with tipping.


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## Schulz (Nov 25, 2014)

In December 2014 gas prices had fallen 27% (according to the Dallas News) and maybe in December Uber decided to cut fares 23% because drivers were paying 27% less for fuel. If true then fares may continue to fall with fuel prices this year, as fuel prices are expected to continue to fall all year as the Saudis glut the market with oil to kill the US fracking industry.


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## gman (Jul 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Looking over the announced 23% fare decrease effecti8ve 9 January&#8230;
> If I'm figuring it correctly, the old fare was $1.25/mile
> ...


You forgot about the time component. Not sure what it is in your city, but let's say it's .20/minute, and out of the hour you have a person in the car for an average of 20mins, that comes out to $4. That plus your $3.41 comes out to $7.41.

Still sucks, haha, I think that was the main point.


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## grams777 (Jun 13, 2014)

Schulz said:


> In December 2014 gas prices had fallen 27% (according to the Dallas News) and maybe in December Uber decided to cut fares 23% because drivers were paying 27% less for fuel. If true then fares may continue to fall with fuel prices this year, as fuel prices are expected to continue to fall all year as the Saudis glut the market with oil to kill the US fracking industry.


Much of the uber speak pretends drivers only costs are gas + current maintenance. However, this only represents the smaller operating cost of running a vehicle.

It ignores the much larger ownership cost which includes items such as depreciation (a sort of deferred maintenance/repair cost).

The drop of gasoline prices only represents about 5 cents per mile difference. ($1 per gallon drop divided by 20 mpg). It comes nowhere near justifying slashes of 30 cents per mile.

See below and the linked brochure (many of the aaa estimates exceed the irs rate):
http://newsroom.aaa.com/2014/05/own...e-cheaper-aaas-2014-your-driving-costs-study/


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## Tom Madison (Aug 11, 2014)

Someone at Uber does not understand basic economics and price elasticity. I strongly doubt that a 23% price decrease is going to drive a 23% (or more) increase in demand in these or any other market. Frankly, I think that demand is somewhat inelastic with changes in price based on conversations with dozens of passengers. Uber is far cheaper than a taxi and the experience is so superior that most users would easily pay a fare that was 60-70% of the cost of a taxi without hesitating.

I look at my daughter and her friends, all in their mid-20s, who use Uber every weekend. None of them are making huge salaries, but increasing fares by 25-30% would hardly be noticed.


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## DjTim (Oct 18, 2014)

Schulz said:


> In December 2014 gas prices had fallen 27% (according to the Dallas News) and maybe in December Uber decided to cut fares 23% because drivers were paying 27% less for fuel. If true then fares may continue to fall with fuel prices this year, as fuel prices are expected to continue to fall all year as the Saudis glut the market with oil to kill the US fracking industry.


I am sure that this is part of their reasoning, but just because gas prices drop - that doesn't mean that all of our other costs drop. In the grand "price" of things, gas is only 5 or 10% of our overhead. All the maintenance costs don't go lower just because gas drops.


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## Casandria (Dec 20, 2014)

There are only so many fares you can take in an hour no matter how many pax there are wanting one so it's all total and complete BS. I spent my birthday today logged on for 6 hours with only one fare so no guarantee for me and the fare would have been worth more yesterday. Oddly enough, I had 6 fares yesterday BEFORE the price cut. Hit all the same areas at the same times today that I do everyday so not sure how much more business it's generating. It was inexpensive before the cut now it's just plain cheap. At this point, those who don't rely on Uber to make ends meet, should just sell their car and take Uber everywhere because it would be less than a car payment.


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## uberwatcher (Sep 18, 2014)

Casandria said:


> At this point, those who don't rely on Uber to make ends meet, should just sell their car and take Uber everywhere because it would be less than a car payment.


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## Slappy (Jan 9, 2015)

STRIKE! If you want uber to bring their rates back up then you need to take their supply of cars off of the road. If we stopped driving until they raised their rates, rates would be back up tomorrow. How do we get organized?


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## The Geek (May 29, 2014)

@Casandria Happy Birthday!


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## Worcester Sauce (Aug 20, 2014)

Casandria said:


> There are only so many fares you can take in an hour no matter how many pax there are wanting one so it's all total and complete BS. I spent my birthday today logged on for 6 hours with only one fare so no guarantee for me and the fare would have been worth more yesterday. Oddly enough, I had 6 fares yesterday BEFORE the price cut. Hit all the same areas at the same times today that I do everyday so not sure how much more business it's generating. It was inexpensive before the cut now it's just plain cheap. At this point, those who don't rely on Uber to make ends meet, should just sell their car and take Uber everywhere because it would be less than a car payment.


Happy Birthday!!!!


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## Worcester Sauce (Aug 20, 2014)

Slappy said:


> STRIKE! If you want uber to bring their rates back up then you need to take their supply of cars off of the road. If we stopped driving until they raised their rates, rates would be back up tomorrow. How do we get organized?


fah get about it


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## UberH (Oct 23, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> received nice 'on-point' replies from Uber regarding my note above - standard line: "lower fares=more rides = more
> 
> _If you live in an area where it's not necessarily likely that you'll get 1 trip per hour, have a friend/spouse/child/ etc. call you for a two minute ride. You can pay them the minimum and then have Uber pay you the $12/hour... Oops, I mean $12 minus $1.00 minus $2.20 or $8.80.
> 
> ...


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## wisuber (Dec 13, 2014)

Same thing here in the Milwaukee burbs. My husband was one of the only cars out here. Passengers were thrilled to have service out here. He will be cutting down his driving time significantly now and will only work during peak hours of guarantee or when there is chance for surge. Lots of customers will not be able to be serviced out here now.

But the thing that ****ing kills me is that there seems to be more cars out than normal in downtown Milwaukee all day and night today...WTF?


Michael - Cleveland said:


> received nice 'on-point' replies from Uber regarding my note above - standard line: "lower fares=more rides = more driver money".
> 
> _My reply:_
> 
> ...


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

DharmaBum said:


> There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics. Uber wants the drivers to believe that they will make more money after a while because more people will use the service. But it's still 75 cents a mile (in Charlotte) with increased depreciation and gasoline expenses to make the same money. If you can. I can handle making less money, but I won't drive my automobile for 75 cents a mile, nor for 'guaranteed' $12/hour off-peak.
> However, there may be many drivers who will, either because they can't/won't get another job, or do not truly understand their expenses and tax obligations.


Some drivers will do it, for a while. It's not sustainable though. Most of us get it, some don't, but they will. Louisville is $10/hour off-peak. I could do better walking around looking for change on the ground, and not ruin my car doing it.


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## Clevelandude (Nov 27, 2014)

I think the price drop corresponds to the number of drivers on the road. In Cleveland, which is the city the OP is talking about, I've seen a large increase in the number of open cars even in the 2 months since I started. I think the market is oversaturated, and they know they can pay less. The guys doing it for extra cash on the side will stay home, and the guys who really need it will keep driving because they have to. I'm in the former category, and it sucks. I did Uber partly for fun, and partly for extra cash, but at these prices, it's not worth putting the wear and tear on my car.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Clevelandude said:


> I think the price drop corresponds to the number of drivers on the road. In Cleveland, which is the city the OP is talking about, I've seen a large increase in the number of open cars even in the 2 months since I started. I think the market is oversaturated, and they know they can pay less. The guys doing it for extra cash on the side will stay home, and the guys who really need it will keep driving because they have to. I'm in the former category, and it sucks. I did Uber partly for fun, and partly for extra cash, but at these prices, it's not worth putting the wear and tear on my car.


You're right. After they had the markets heavily saturated, they knew they could slash the rates, and then if 2/3's of the drivers left immediately - no big deal. I'm sure they have a good estimate now on how many people their lies can sucker-in to sign up in order to keep the roads populated, as more and more drivers have cars that break down, with no funds to repair them, and others that finally just run out of cash, and can't afford to operate a vehicle.

I can't say enough bad things about this company.


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## MikeB (Dec 2, 2014)

DharmaBum said:


> There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics. Uber wants the drivers to believe...
> ...who will, either because they can't/won't get another job, or do not truly understand their expenses and tax obligations.


Stupid people driving for this shit company.
Die Uber!


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

upnetuser said:


> The translation to that email is:
> 
> Good news! Rates were cut by 23%, expect to make at least 23% less in earnings!!!!!


I signed on to the rider app tonight, and it said the rates were cut by 30%. They were $1.15/mile, now they're $0.70/mile.


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## Uberdawg (Oct 23, 2014)

The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over." 
― Joseph Goebbels


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Uberdawg said:


> The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."
> ― Joseph Goebbels


*"Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings, Lower fares mean higher driver earnings."*

That type thing?


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## Uberdawg (Oct 23, 2014)

Just like that. If I say it enough times, I might believe it.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Uberdawg said:


> Just like that. If I say it enough times, I might believe it.


You have to close your eyes and click your heels together when you say it. It helps to be wearing ruby red shoes too, but I found it also works wearing 4-inch black heels.


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## Junior.M (Jan 9, 2015)

Low fare equals more rides - this is uber psychological strategies to confuse drivers. Uber want commuters to take uber to wotk and from work . They are losing drivers so fast that they come up with 'Bad or Good credit you will get a new car'' so that drivers locked in the system (new contract ) .


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## Uberdawg (Oct 23, 2014)

The sad part about all of this is Uber is using Chicago as an example for how this works. They compare December 2013 to 2014. They say that a 23% rate cut caused a 45% increase in trips which resulted in a 12% increase in Driver Revenue.

Okay, so trips increased by 45% but was that all due to the rate cut? How about an extra year of people knowing Uber is around having an impact. And maybe, God forbid, Uber advertised for riders (not drivers).

And even with my lowly LSU accounting degree, who in their right ****ing mind wants to increase their expenses by 45% while only increasing their revenue 12%.

Well, that's because Ubers revenue in Chicago increased 12%, but their expenses didn't increase at all. Only the drivers did. This crap about maximizing "partners" revenue is the biggest "lie" of them all. Gross Revenue increased, Net Revenue went down.

Here is a link to a story:

http://chicagoinno.streetwise.co/20...gs-guarantee-uses-chicago-price-cut-as-guide/


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Uber is the ultimate piece of shit of a company. We (drivers) know that, and even many of the riders are learning more about what's going on, but some will always take a cheap ride, even if it meant children were kept in cages and allowed out only to drive for Uber. I have zero doubt Uber would take this route also, if they thought they could get away with it.

Lies are a big part of how they operate. If they dealt in the truth, well, they would have been gone long ago. Here's some examples of just one email. I would bet every driver in this forum has seen these lies before. Very possibly, verbatim.

*Lie #1.) As we've seen in the past with price changes, we expect that partners will complete more trips and earn more than usual.*

*Lie #2.) To make sure this doesn't have a negative effect on the fares you generate, we're putting an hourly fare guarantee in place.*

*Lie #3.) We will be monitoring this price change very closely and adjusting rates and guarantees to ensure these changes have a positive impact on partners.*

*Lie #4.) We would not have made this decision unless we estimated it would add to your overall earnings and help you do more trips during this time.*

*Lie #5.) I am happy to pass along all feedback; positive, negative and constructive.*

*Lie #6.) As long as you meet the trip acceptance requirements, you will be automatically guaranteed the hourly fare amounts listed in the e-mail you received earlier.*

For the life of me, even with Uber's lies, I cannot understand why anyone would actually drive their own vehicle, and go out in hopes of getting rides at $0.70/mile! It makes absolutely no sense. I realize that the economy is still a mess, regardless of what they want you to believe, but I can't believe that people are so desperate that they're willing to work a job in which they may not even break even! Even their shitty 'guarantees' of $10 and $14/hour don't even make it anything to possibly consider, yet there's cars on the road as I type this.

I just feel sorry for these people. It has to be horrible to be in that level of desperation.


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## SuperDuperUber (Sep 25, 2014)

Every time Uber announces a new fare cut and justifies it with "lower fares generate more rides thus higher driver income" I'm always reminded of George Orwell's 1984, where Big Brother and the dictatorship in control have their big lie propaganda posted everywhere:

“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”

The cuts are bad enough but the lying makes it sooooo much worse, insulting our intelligence. I would respect the cold hearted bastards if they just screwed me and not lied while doing it.


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

Tom Madison said:


> Someone at Uber does not understand basic economics and price elasticity. I strongly doubt that a 23% price decrease is going to drive a 23% (or more) increase in demand in these or any other market. Frankly, I think that demand is somewhat inelastic with changes in price based on conversations with dozens of passengers. Uber is far cheaper than a taxi and the experience is so superior that most users would easily pay a fare that was 60-70% of the cost of a taxi without hesitating.
> 
> I look at my daughter and her friends, all in their mid-20s, who use Uber every weekend. None of them are making huge salaries, but increasing fares by 25-30% would hardly be noticed.


The problem in their logic is that they are a new business, and hard as it may be to conceive it, there are several people who haven't heard of Uber, so much of their increase in business comes from first time users which has nothing to do with an additional 20% cut to their fares because they were already half the cost and twice as convenient as a cab.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

SuperDuperUber said:


> Every time Uber announces a new fare cut and justifies it with "lower fares generate more rides thus higher driver income" I'm always reminded of George Orwell's 1984, where Big Brother and the dictatorship in control have their big lie propaganda posted everywhere:
> 
> "War is peace.
> Freedom is slavery.
> ...


Exactly! I don't like being lied to, and I don't like anyone treating me like I'm a total idiot. Uber does both.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

gman said:


> You forgot about the time component. Not sure what it is in your city, but let's say it's .20/minute, and out of the hour you have a person in the car for an average of 20mins, that comes out to $4. That plus your $3.41 comes out to $7.41.


You think you're being paid *BOTH* time and mileage?
Well, somebody didn't read their training materials...

*Drivers are paid for their time OR mileage* - *not both*.

https://partners.uber.com/faq/questions/5409
_How are fares calculated? How much do I get paid?_

Fare calculation
For all Uber fares (with the exception of Uber TAXI) the fare is calculated as:
Base + Distance + Time = Uber Fare
In order to calculate the fare, Uber takes GPS data from the trip and charges for *either distance or time* (not both) depending on your speed.
•When your Uber is travelling over 11mph, we charge a distance rate.
•When your Uber is travelling at or below 11mph, we charge a time rate.​


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Casandria said:


> I spent my birthday today logged on for 6 hours with only one fare ...


That's god's way of saying: That's no way to spend your birthday.
(Happy Birthday, anyway!)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Slappy said:


> If you want uber to bring their rates back up then you need to take their supply of cars off of the road. If we stopped driving until they raised their rates, rates would be back up tomorrow. How do we get organized?


That's what I did last night... first night of the reduced rates.
I still went out four peak hours, but drove for LYFT instead ($1.25/mi vs. Uber $.96/mi).
*It wasn't a political statement on my part - it was a financial decision as a direct result of Uber's fare decrease.*


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## gman (Jul 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You think you're being paid *BOTH* time and mileage?
> *Think again: *Drivers are paid for their time OR mileage - *not both*.
> 
> https://partners.uber.com/faq/questions/5409
> ...


Um, that's how it worked about a year ago. Now it's time plus distance. From Uber website:

*Fare calculation*
For all Uber fares (with the exception of Uber TAXI) the fare is calculated as:
*Base + Distance + Time = Uber Fare*
In order to calculate the fare, Uber takes GPS data from the trip and charges for distance and time.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

gman said:


> Um, that's how it worked about a year ago. Now it's time plus distance. From Uber website:


I provided a LINK to what I posted from the Uber website.
Please do the same for what you've quoted - I'd like to see it...
What you quoted is the same as what I did - except *what you quoted leaves off the rest of the sentence and paragraph*.

Thanks.


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## Uberdawg (Oct 23, 2014)

If you look at an invoice, it charges for both time and distance. It has both the elapsed time of the trip and the total distance. Multiply both by the fare in your market, add the base and the SRF and it comes up to the fare charged.

Haven't looked up contracts but that is how it works.


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## gman (Jul 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I provided a LINK to what I posted from the Uber website.
> Please do the same for what you've quoted - I'd like to see it...
> What you quoted is the same as what I did - except *what you quoted leaves off the rest of the sentence and paragraph*.
> 
> Thanks.


That's because there is no "rest of the sentence and paragraph".

https://partners.uber.com/faq/questions/5073
You can also just look up your city on the website:

https://www.uber.com/cities/Cleveland
Anything else I can help you with, or are we good for now?


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## ElectroFuzz (Jun 10, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Looking over the announced 23% fare decrease effecti8ve 9 January&#8230;
> If I'm figuring it correctly, the old fare was $1.25/mile
> ...


*Your math is wrong.
You did not factor in the cost of dead miles, pickup and per minute pay.*
(sorry, math is such a beautiful exact science, I feel an urge to correct)

I'm not 100% sure I understood your example but
I will try anyway, if I'm wrong correct me and I will redo the math.

You drove about 35 miles that hour
1 paid mile for every 1 dead mile, so about 30 minute paid and 30 minutes not paid
Pickup for Cleveland is $1.20 and $0.16/per minute and $0.96 per mile? (Uber site says $1.00)

*Gross Payment:*
Time: $0.16 x 30 = $4.80
Miles: $0.96 x 17.5 = $16.80
Pickup: $1.20
Total: $4.80+$16.80+$1.20 = $22.80
Uber fee: $22.80 - 20% = $18.24

*Cost to operate:*
$0.575 x 35 = $20.13

*Total Profit/Loss:*
$18.24 - $20.13 = (-$1.89) loss !


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

ElectroFuzz said:


> *Your math is wrong.
> You did not factor in the cost of dead miles, pickup and per minute pay.*
> (sorry, math is such a beautiful exact science, I feel an urge to correct)
> 
> ...


Ouch


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Looking over the announced 23% fare decrease effecti8ve 9 January&#8230;
> If I'm figuring it correctly, the old fare was $1.25/mile
> ...


Uh, not quite there Michael. When you factor in unpaid miles which are normally DOUBLE or more than the paid miles *you are actually running well into the red loss zone* *and are in fact not making a PENNY.*


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ElectroFuzz said:


> *Your math is wrong.
> You did not factor in the cost of dead miles, pickup and per minute pay.
> Total Profit/Loss: *$18.24 - $20.13 = (-$1.89) loss !


You're absolutely correct. My example was simplified . Can you take a shot at improving your example to be even more accurate? You've listed 30 minutes of driving as a single trip to include one 'base fare'. In reality, that would likely be 30 minutes of paid driving time with an average of, oh I'd say maybe 1.5 to 1.75 pick-up fees?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> factor in unpaid miles which are normally DOUBLE or more than the paid miles *.*


I did factor in unpaid 'dead' miles at 50% of 1 hour of paid miles:

_If I averaged 35 MPH for one hour of non-stop 'paid' driving, I would earn a total of $6.83.
 And, of course, there's no such thing as non-stop paid driving.
On average you have to drive 2 miles to get paid for one mile.
*That brings the earnings under the new fares down to around $3.41/hr.*_​


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I did factor in unpaid 'dead' miles at 50% of 1 hour of paid miles:
> 
> _If I averaged 35 MPH for one hour of non-stop 'paid' driving, I would earn a total of $6.83.
> And, of course, there's no such thing as non-stop paid driving.
> ...


IF, and of course this is debatable to some, but not to me, IF it costs .56 cents a mile to run (the IRS deduction) and in my case this is close because I drive XL, THEN a driver has to have double that just to break even without making any hourly rate.

So unless the rate is higher than $1.40 per paid mile there is a factual zero hourly wage.

Here is the simple math explanation: $1.40 a paid mile minus Uber's cut of 20% = $1.12 divided by 1 paid and 1 upaid mile is:

voila: 56 cents.

And at that rate technically speaking, from an IRS standpoint, *a driver still makes exactly ZERO.*

Now, go tell how much money per hour anyone is making at less than $1.40? All such claims are simply ignorant B.S.

With these new lowered rates? Ha! It's less than a bad joke. Only the ignorant need to continue with math to justify it. On paper no math justification is even possible.


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## ElectroFuzz (Jun 10, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You're absolutely correct. My example was simplified . Can you take a shot at improving your example to be even more accurate? You've listed 30 minutes of driving as a single trip to include one 'base fare'. In reality, that would likely be 30 minutes of paid driving time with an average of, oh I'd say maybe 1.5 to 1.75 pick-up fees?


It will look very similar:

*Gross Payment:*
Time: $0.16 x 30 = $4.80
Miles: $0.96 x 17.5 = $16.80
Pickup: $1.20 x 1.75 = $2.10
Total: $4.80+$16.80+$2.10 = $23.70
Uber fee: $23.70 - 20% = $18.96

*Cost to operate:*
$0.575 x 35 = $20.13

*Total Profit/Loss:*
$18.96 - $20.13 = (-$1.17) loss !



What kind of car do you have?
Your per mile cost might be a little better.
It will make the whole picture look a little better.


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I did factor in unpaid 'dead' miles at 50% of 1 hour of paid miles:
> 
> _If I averaged 35 MPH for one hour of non-stop 'paid' driving, I would earn a total of $6.83.
> And, of course, there's no such thing as non-stop paid driving.
> ...


What you failed to do was factor in the cost for the dead miles, all you did was divide your "profit" by 2.


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## FidelCastro305 (Jan 11, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Looking over the announced 23% fare decrease effecti8ve 9 January&#8230;
> If I'm figuring it correctly, the old fare was $1.25/mile
> ...


I understand they're a bunch of baaastads! Lowering our rates. Anyone know if there are protests going on in Miami?


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## FidelCastro305 (Jan 11, 2015)

Treydurrs, this is a perfect example of capitalism. But hey what can we say? We live in America


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> IF, and of course this is debatable to some, but not to me, IF it costs .56 cents a mile to run (the IRS deduction) and in my case this is close because I drive XL, THEN a driver has to have double that just to break even without making any hourly rate.
> 
> So unless the rate is higher than $1.40 per paid mile there is a factual zero hourly wage.
> 
> ...


You always confuse things with all those facts. I just about had it worked out where I could make a good profit on this $0.70/mile.


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## gman (Jul 28, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> IF, and of course this is debatable to some, but not to me, IF it costs .56 cents a mile to run (the IRS deduction) and in my case this is close because I drive XL, THEN a driver has to have double that just to break even without making any hourly rate.
> 
> So unless the rate is higher than $1.40 per paid mile there is a factual zero hourly wage.
> 
> ...


How does the math work out when you have expensive commercial insurance? 

Still driving?


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

FidelCastro305 said:


> Treydurrs, this is a perfect example of capitalism. But hey what can we say? We live in America


Go to Cuba then, I'm sure they'd love to have you, lol.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

RideshareGuru said:


> Go to Cuba then, I'm sure they'd love to have you, lol.


It looks as though Cuba may be the place to be pretty soon. I guess Travis will go down there and ruin it too though. Rape at $0.05/mile!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RideshareGuru said:


> What you failed to do was factor in the cost for the dead miles, all you did was divide your "profit" by 2.


If your straight mileage earnings for one hour at 35 MPH is $6.83, then if it actually takes 2 hours to drive those same paid 35 miles, the earnings per hour are $3.415. If you spend the 60 minutes of un-paid time driving around without a passenger, then you are spending more money out of your own pocket (but your earnings are not from Uber are not reduced).

It's semantics.

The bottom line is that at these rates, no-one is making any money unless they are stealing a car to go on the road each day and driving it until it runs out of gas or get arrested.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ElectroFuzz said:


> What kind of car do you have?
> Your per mile cost might be a little better.
> It will make the whole picture look a little better.


I have a car I use only for TNC (makes taxes and depreciation easier).
The vehicle cost $9,000, I expect to drive around 50,000 mi/yr and fully depreciate the thing over 3 years.

With the fuel economy I get, and my insurance rates and expected costs of maintenance and repair, I estimate my fully loaded 'paid driving mile' expense to be right around $.45-$.50/mi. That's barring any unforeseen maintenance.

I suspect that's lower than most drivers (I have no car loan, thus no interest expense) and higher than others. So, while I'm a bit below the IRS rate of $0.575/mi, it's only around a 7% differential. If I had a $25,000 vehicle or were making a loan payment, my expense would be higher than the IRS rate.


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I have a car I use only for TNC (makes taxes and depreciation easier).
> The vehicle cost $9,000, I expect to drive around 50,000 mi/yr and fully depreciate the thing over 3 years.
> 
> With the fuel economy I get, and my insurance rates and expected costs of maintenance and repair, I estimate my fully loaded 'paid driving mile' expense to be right around $.45-$.50/mi. That's barring any unforeseen maintenance.
> ...


So, by your numbers, you made a $9k investment with the rosiest scenario being that you earn $0.07/mile after expenses and expect to put 150k miles on it. Best case scenario is that you will earn $10.5k if you have absolutely no dead miles over your 3 year investment period. A profit of $3500 per year under ideal circumstances that will never happen. Less than $300/month for driving about 1000 miles/wk. Which will take you about 50 hours each week. Why are you doing this again?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

gman said:


> Um, that's how it worked about a year ago. Now it's time plus distance. From Uber website:


Check your Uber User Agreement
(login to Uber, click on PROFILE and scroll down to the fine print) -

Let me know if you see the same language in your contract that I see in mine:

4.1 Fare Calculation And Your Payment.
You Are entitled to charge a fare for each instance of completed Transportation Services Provided to a User That are obtained via the Uber Services ("Fare"), Where such Fare Is calculated based upon a base fare amount plus mileage *and/or *time amounts, as detailed for the applicable Territory ("Fare Calculation"). [emphasis added]​
I have now exchanged three emails with my local Uber group asking this very simple *yes or no* question:

_If I am driving an Uber passenger and traveling at a speed over 11 MPH,
is the TIME while driving over 11 MPH incurring the applicable TIME RATE fee_
_and will I be paid the mileage rate fee PLUS that time rate fee incurred for time travelling over 11 MPH?_​
The first two times, I actually asked the question in a much cleaner way... but since they responded with such non-answers (and refused to say just 'yes' or 'no') I had to write the question to cover all bases so they could weasel out of a direct answer.

They have replied each time without answering yes or no, but instead referring to their other (ambiguous) documents. 
That should tell you something.


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## ElectroFuzz (Jun 10, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I have a car I use only for TNC (makes taxes and depreciation easier).
> The vehicle cost $9,000, I expect to drive around 50,000 mi/yr and fully depreciate the thing over 3 years.
> 
> With the fuel economy I get, and my insurance rates and expected costs of maintenance and repair, I estimate my fully loaded 'paid driving mile' expense to be right around $.45-$.50/mi. That's barring any unforeseen maintenance.
> ...


OK let's redo the math with $0.45 cost per mile:

*Gross Payment:*
Time: $0.16 x 30 = $4.80
Miles: $0.96 x 17.5 = $16.80
Pickup: $1.20 x 1.75 = $2.10
Total: $4.80+$16.80+$2.10 = $23.70
Uber fee: $23.70 - 20% = $18.96

*Cost to operate:*
$0.45 x 35 = $15.75

*Total Profit/Loss:*
$18.96 - $15.75 = $3.21 profit !

With your new rates there is only one way to improve your profit.
You need to go to a busy downtown area where people are bar hopping.
You need to focus on these short rides to accumulate the $1.20 pickup fees.
You must NOT drive after you dropped off somebody, just park and wait for the next ping.
If you can squeeze 4-6 rides per hour and maybe get some tips it might add up.
But even then there is no way to make any serious money with these current rates.


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## ElectroFuzz (Jun 10, 2014)

Uber started paying "Mile + Time" after the July 2014 price cut.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RideshareGuru said:


> So, by your numbers, you made a $9k investment with the rosiest scenario being that you earn $0.07/mile after expenses and expect to put 150k miles on it. Best case scenario is that you will earn $10.5k if you have absolutely no dead miles over your 3 year investment period. A profit of $3500 per year under ideal circumstances that will never happen. Less than $300/month for driving about 1000 miles/wk. Which will take you about 50 hours each week. Why are you doing this again?


LOL! Exactly... and that's why I am NOT 'doing this' other than for kicks & cash... it's better than sitting in front of the TV from 10P till 1AM. I'm now taking LYFT rides as a priority over Uber pings. And I'll likely drop it all once I get bored with it. My calculations (that started this thread, remember!) were a quick calculation for myself and I reached the conclusion that it would be more profitable for me to sit on my couch and make a $1/hr tax deductible donation to my local food bank than to drive for Uber!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ElectroFuzz said:


> Uber started paying "Mile + Time" after the July 2014 price cut.


Hey - that's good news (but not much) - but the contract still does not REQUIRE Uber to pass on to us BOTH time and mileage. My contract still explicitly states, "and/or".


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ElectroFuzz said:


> OK let's redo the math with $0.45 cost per mile:
> With your new rates there is only one way to improve your profit.
> You need to go to a busy downtown area where people are bar hopping.
> You need to focus on these short rides to accumulate the $1.20 pickup fees.
> ...


Yeah... reached the same conclusion on Thursday when I did the initial calculations. First trip last night took me to the downtown bar areas (on a Fri night)... and the rides were ok... but I am NOT going to hang around clubs or hotels where there are lines of cabbies waiting for fares. First, it just makes me feel bad (and I'm not into feeling bad) and second, I have no intention of letting one of them get pissed off at me and accidentally side swipe my gleaming white Mercedes or, worse, come after me with a baseball bat when I get out to open the door for some PAX clicking away on their smart-phone.

I like my suburbs - fewer rides - but they're long and interesting.


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Check your Uber User Agreement
> (login to Uber, click on PROFILE and scroll down to the fine print) -
> 
> Let me know if you see the same language in your contract that I see in mine:
> ...


I can't, i stopped driving for them long ago. And it says and/or because in some markets (maybe 4 at most) it is an either/or on mileage. It is how most markets started though.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> If your straight mileage earnings for one hour at 35 MPH is $6.83, then if it actually takes 2 hours to drive those same paid 35 miles, the earnings per hour are $3.415. If you spend the 60 minutes of un-paid time driving around without a passenger, then you are spending more money out of your own pocket (but your earnings are not from Uber are not reduced).
> 
> It's semantics.
> 
> The bottom line is that at these rates, no-one is making any money unless they are stealing a car to go on the road each day and driving it until it runs out of gas or get arrested.


Yet there are cars all over downtown here. I'm totally stunned, it's like the rates were not just cut yesterday from $1.15 to $0.70/mile here. Have people totally lost it? Our schools aren't the best here, but can't they figure out that they'll be losing money trying to do this? I guess maybe I should try and check to see if they've had a lot of auto. thefts in the last couple of days. Surely that's the reason they're still driving.


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

DriverJ said:


> Yet there are cars all over downtown here. I'm totally stunned, it's like the rates were not just cut yesterday from $1.15 to $0.70/mile here. Have people totally lost it? Our schools aren't the best here, but can't they figure out that they'll be losing money trying to do this? I guess maybe I should try and check to see if they've had a lot of auto. thefts in the last couple of days. Surely that's the reason they're still driving.


They're looking at the guarantee amounts and not considering true expenses. After their first week when Uber stiffs them on the guarantee over a technicality, driver count will go down.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Check your Uber User Agreement
> (login to Uber, click on PROFILE and scroll down to the fine print) -
> 
> Let me know if you see the same language in your contract that I see in mine:
> ...


Uber is about deceit. $100,000/year is what the 'AVERAGE' Uber driver is earning? I know differently, we all do. I had a lawyer in the car one night, he hated Uber too. He told me, "I don't even make that much." He was a little younger guy, and I believe a lot of people believe all lawyers are making tons of money, which isn't always the case, of course.

Uber is lies, filth, scum. A sleazy organization that hides behind the Internet and preys on everyone that allows them to do so.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

RideshareGuru said:


> They're looking at the guarantee amounts and not considering true expenses. After their first week when Uber stiffs them on the guarantee over a technicality, driver count will go down.


I have no doubt you're right. I know all about their 'guarantees', as well as their cancellations fees.

$1.15/mile - $0.70/mile in one cut here. I have to admit, they shocked me there. I really thought they'd continue to ease into it.


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

DriverJ said:


> I have no doubt you're right. I know all about their 'guarantees', as well as their cancellations fees.
> 
> $1.15/mile - $0.70/mile in one cut here. I have to admit, they shocked me there. I really thought they'd continue to ease into it.


Yeah, they really gave it to the drivers in the ass with no lube there.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

RideshareGuru said:


> They're looking at the guarantee amounts and not considering true expenses. After their first week when Uber stiffs them on the guarantee over a technicality, driver count will go down.


That's the thing - the guarantees here are only $14 and $10, so they even suck going into it. It seems like they would have 'guarantees' of maybe $40 and $25, and then not pay it.


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## Airman (Oct 3, 2014)

Slappy said:


> STRIKE! If you want uber to bring their rates back up then you need to take their supply of cars off of the road. If we stopped driving until they raised their rates, rates would be back up tomorrow. How do we get organized?












I'll just go find something more lucrative for myself. **** unionizing, it would come with it's own set problems just as "evil" as Uber.


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

DriverJ said:


> That's the thing - the guarantees here are only $14 and $10, so they even suck going into it. It seems like they would have 'guarantees' of maybe $40 and $25, and then not pay it.


In my market it's $20/$16. Some markets have 3 tiers of guarantees. There's actually less lyft drivers on the road here now and some prime time to go around because dual drivers are chasing the $20/hr. Uber guarantee, ******s.


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## cybertec69 (Jul 23, 2014)

News flash, they did the same thing here in nyc, they cut the rates to ludicrous levels, then they started with the guarantees, well those are no more and a thing of the past, including surge fairs, they over saturated the market with so many cars "drivers on top of each other" , no need for surges, drivers working for peanuts, but uber is making a killing, more cars equals more fares for uber, not the individual driver, people with half a brain can figure that out. The problem here is that there is people out there with less than half a brain, Uber's favorite kind.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

RideshareGuru said:


> In my market it's $20/$16. Some markets have 3 tiers of guarantees. There's actually less lyft drivers on the road here now and some prime time to go around because dual drivers are chasing the $20/hr. Uber guarantee, ******s.


I don't get it. The argument, "Well I have three kids to feed", or "I need to keep a roof over my head", or any of those, doesn't apply here. If they're not making money, then it's just compounding their problems. Why can't they see that? We need to go round them up and protect them from themselves. I was trying to explain it to one guy on here earlier, but he just said something to the effect that he would just keep driving and see what happened! 

Just now got another text from Uber. They've been burning my phone up today. Said it was at 2.4x surge right now. I used to almost never see surge when I used to work for Uber. Halloween, and NYE for the most part, and I started on September 5 or 6, 2014. Lemme see now, 2.4 x $0.00, I need to get my calculator, but it looks like I may be going out after-all. This just may be some serious bucks.

Wanna bet I wouldn't see surge all night if I actually went downtown?

Uber On! - Without Me!


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

DriverJ said:


> I don't get it. The argument, "Well I have three kids to feed", or "I need to keep a roof over my head", or any of those, doesn't apply here. If they're not making money, then it's just compounding their problems. Why can't they see that? We need to go round them up and protect them from themselves. I was trying to explain it to one guy on here earlier, but he just said something to the effect that he would just keep driving and see what happened!
> 
> Just now got another text from Uber. They've been burning my phone up today. Said it was at 2.4x surge right now. I used to almost never see surge when I used to work for Uber. Halloween, and NYE for the most part, and I started on September 5 or 6, 2014. Lemme see now, 2.4 x $0.00, I need to get my calculator, but it looks like I may be going out after-all. This just may be some serious bucks.
> 
> ...


A good part of the expenses are deferred, like vehicle depreciation. So in a sense it is like taking a cash advance from a credit card at a horrible interest rate. As Wimpy used to say, "I'll gladly pay you on Thursday for a hamburger today. "


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## ElectroFuzz (Jun 10, 2014)

RideshareGuru said:


> A good part of the expenses are deferred, like vehicle depreciation. So in a sense it is like taking a cash advance from a credit card at a horrible interest rate. As Wimpy used to say, "I'll gladly pay you on Thursday for a hamburger today. "


Right.... it's a slow spiral down to bankruptcy.
You operate at a loss basically giving away net capital and your time to Uber.
Meanwhile Uber uses this "free capital" to make billions.
But hold on, there is more, they will suck you dry twice.
Most likely your 401K investment bank (if you have any) will put some of your retirement money on Uber
that you will most likely lose as well... because once they cash in and the new owners will be 
middle class America the real Uber will surface and we will see drastic changes. 
Uber might even go out of business or regulated to death.
It's a classic top 1% sucking billions from the rest of us.
Do it slowly with fuzzy math.
Sounds familiar?
Housing market crash of 2008 anyone....


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

ElectroFuzz said:


> Right.... it's a slow spiral down to bankruptcy.


Depends on how much cash you have on hand. I would guess a lot of people wouldn't make it (3) months.



ElectroFuzz said:


> Housing market crash of 2008 anyone....


Yes, me - I remember something about a little housing problem, I do believe. The NINJA loans and whatnot? _Less than ideal_ home mortgage investments maybe? I believe Uber/Travis are very comparable to the big bank scum that perpetrated that little financial practical joke on the world. Get in, make an insane amount of cash, possibly by financially ruining others, and walk away free and clear. Frontline had a couple of extremely good documentaries on it. 'Too Big to Fail', and I believe another one specifically on the scandal. There was one on the derivatives crap too. 'Money, Power, and Wall Street', maybe? I'm honestly not sure which ones covered what, but watch those two if you haven't, they're enlightening, depressing. and they'll really piss you off! You can watch them anytime online, I believe. They leave one thinking that there's probably some dishonest people in the world that only care about money. I know it's farfetched, but....

I bet Travis would get a nut in his pants if Bernie Madoff wrote to him and asked for his autograph. Just happen to think about that.


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

cybertec69 said:


> News flash, they did the same thing here in nyc, they cut the rates to ludicrous levels, then they started with the guarantees, well those are no more and a thing of the past, including surge fairs, they over saturated the market with so many cars "drivers on top of each other" , no need for surges, drivers working for peanuts, but uber is making a killing, more cars equals more fares for uber, not the individual driver, people with half a brain can figure that out. The problem here is that there is people out there with less than half a brain, Uber's favorite kind.


I'm sorry there's so many cars and frustrations for you there. At least you're rewarded with the $90,766/year income! Wait, in the last video I saw with asshole Travis, he said now the *average* driver is making $100,000/year. I bet that raise came in handy right during the holidays.

Seriously, I do feel bad for you, as well as every other driver that was lied to, and continues to be lied to. I hope you, and everyone has something else to turn to sooner rather than later. I believe that if you have even a single dollar in your pocket, or a lot of gas in your tank, then Travis & Co. isn't through sucking cash from you!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ElectroFuzz said:


> Uber started paying "Mile + Time" after the July 2014 price cut.


Finally got a reasonable - but STILL uncertain reply from Uber support:

_Apologies for the discrepancy and I understand how much confusion that has caused.
To answer that question-it is the total amount of time of the entire trip. *I don't believe the whole under/over 11 MPH thing is valid any longer currently*. I know there was that post in the FAQ about that, but I don't *think *that applies any longer.
Your trip will be calculated on a per mile distance basis from what I understand, simply from the beginning to the end time. The beginning of the trip will occur from the point where you press "begin trip" and the end will occur from the point when you press "end trip". However long it takes you from the beginning to the end trip point on a per minute and per second basis is how the time charge is calculated.
*That's how I understand it from my experience*._​
That's the non-committal answer directly from UberService. Sheesh.

So, while/if trips are calculated that way, then in my market that adds $9.60 to that 35 mph 35 miles driven over 2 hours scenario. (otherwise known as $4.80/hr)


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## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Finally got a reasonable - but STILL uncertain reply from Uber support:
> 
> _Apologies for the discrepancy and I understand how much confusion that has caused.
> To answer that question-it is the total amount of time of the entire trip. *I don't believe the whole under/over 11 MPH thing is valid any longer currently*. I know there was that post in the FAQ about that, but I don't *think *that applies any longer.
> ...


I believe what you should take from all of this is:

*If you drive for Uber, you will go broke!!*


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## Speedsense (Dec 27, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Looking over the announced 23% fare decrease effecti8ve 9 January&#8230;
> If I'm figuring it correctly, the old fare was $1.25/mile
> ...


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

DriverJ said:


> I believe what you should take from all of this is:
> 
> *If you drive for Uber, you will go broke!!*


Don't be ridiculous - I'll use the money I earn from Lyft to pay for my gas with Uber!


----------



## Speedsense (Dec 27, 2014)

Your cost is based on a deduction from the IRS? That number is 2014, based on approx 4 dollars per gallon, the rest is wear.. and a deduction you take to not pay taxes on? You are wrong to calculate your costs around that number as it's something you are not going to pay on (tax wise).. and subtract that from the Gross your being paid.. sounds like fuzzy math to me..you will take the deduction from the IRS, and run with it money in your pocket .. and not a minus..


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Speedsense said:


> Your cost is based on a deduction from the IRS?


No - that's a benchmark number for comparison purposes. In my case, it comes into effect not as I figure my costs, but as I report my business expenses (if I don't depreciate my car - which I do). It is the rate set by the IRS as the allowable mileage deduction for tax purposes.



> That number is 2014, based on approx 4 dollars per gallon


No - that is the IRS number for 2015, published on Dec 10th, 2014:
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/New...-Now-Available;-Business-Rate-to-Rise-in-2015


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

gman said:


> How does the math work out when you have expensive commercial insurance?
> 
> Still driving?


Depends on Lyft for the daily driving ritual and an occasional Uber surge engagement, which I'll pass on anyway for awhile just out of spite for the latest cuts.

If Lyft follows suit I'll be hanging up my driving spurs. Not worth ****ing with.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RideshareGuru said:


> Yeah, they really gave it to the drivers in the ass with no lube there.


How about all the poor bastards who bought cars through Santander?

Man, what fools. TK must idolize P.T. Barnum.


----------



## Oc_DriverX (Apr 29, 2014)

Speedsense said:


> Your cost is based on a deduction from the IRS? That number is 2014, based on approx 4 dollars per gallon, the rest is wear.. and a deduction you take to not pay taxes on? You are wrong to calculate your costs around that number as it's something you are not going to pay on (tax wise).. and subtract that from the Gross your being paid.. sounds like fuzzy math to me..you will take the deduction from the IRS, and run with it money in your pocket .. and not a minus..


Using the IRS number is certainly better than just using gas expenses, which some drivers seem to do. You state that the IRS number is just gas and "the rest is wear". That statement could be interpreted as proof that you might not be aware of your real expenses. I believe in actuality the IRS number is based primarily on fuel, maintenance costs, and depreciation. There is also a small amount for car insurance and licensing. The IRS number is not perfect, and every person could calculate a different number. But, if you are not calculating the depreciation and maintenance costs, its a better number to use than simply ignoring them.


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> How about all the poor bastards who bought cars through Santander?
> 
> Man, what fools. TK must idolize P.T. Barnum.


Those guys bent over in front of Travis K. And handed him a sandpaper condom. Can't say I have any sympathy for them though, especially if they've ever been on this site (like a few I know).


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Finally got a reasonable - but STILL uncertain reply from Uber support:





Michael - Cleveland said:


> _Apologies for the discrepancy and I understand how much confusion that has caused.
> *I don't believe the whole under/over 11 MPH thing is valid any longer currently*... _
> _*That's how I understand it from my experience*._​That's the non-committal answer directly from UberService. Sheesh.




And this morning I finally have *an answer that is definitive for my market*, and direct in it's response. (Hat's Off to the Cleveland Uber team that put up with my relentless requests for the information and getting back to me very quickly on the issue! Uber management my be evil, but the support staff, in my experience, has been terrific.)

_Hi,
Thanks for reaching out here, and I apologize for the confusion. ...our rates vary by city, but you can always see the most updated rates for Cleveland at uber.com/cleveland.
In Cleveland, we always charge both time and distance, regardless of the speed, at a rate of $1.00/mile and $0.16/minute, in addition to a base fare of $1.20. Please let me know if you have any more questions.
All the best,
Uber | Community Support_​
Just be aware that Uber can change that at anytime, per the terms of the Driver User Agreement (link available in your Uber Profile), Uber has the option to charge for the mileage "and/or" the time.


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## chuck50 (Dec 28, 2014)

Here in Philly, the fare is advertised as minutes "or" mileage." I asked a local CSR what that meant (it should be obvious) and was told that an Uber fare can be based on BOTH minutes AND mileage, which is not what "OR" means to me! Anyway, her explanation answered my question as to why my customers were being charged more for their rides than if they had been calculated as a straight "mileage only" ride.


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## chuck50 (Dec 28, 2014)

Here is the text of the email I received from the CSR:

_To answer your question, uberX fares are calculated using this formula:

Base Fare + (Distance charge OR Time charge) + $1 Safe Rides Fee = fare paid by the rider

We bill for time or distance depending on the speed of the car:

When traveling about 11 mph, we charge $2.25/mile (distance charge)
When traveling below 11 mph, we charge $.30/min (time charge)
In your area specifically, the uberX base fare is $3

*So every Uber fare will have both a time and a distance charge. How much of each depends largely on factors such as traffic and driver wait time._

So in this instance, "or" apparently means "and"!!!!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

chuck50 said:


> So in this instance, "or" apparently means "and"!!!!


Well, sort of - but it sounds like you misunderstand.
*In Philly, while there will be both a time and mileage component to the fare, they are not accrued simultaneously*.

For example, if you're sitting at a red-light for 2 minutes, the fare for those 2 min = 2 X $.30= $.60. Obviously, *since you're not moving, no mileage charge is being incurred while the time component is being incurred*.

For the sake of simplicity, if your car is moving at below 11 MPH (bumper-to-bumper traffic, for instance), you are still earning the $.30/minute ($18/hr) time component, even though you are not earning any mileage fare (because you're not moving).
THAT is what it means when they say the fare is time - OR - mileage.

Here in Cleveland, both the mileage rate and the time rate are much lower than in Philly -
but our fare consists of BOTH time (for the entire duration of the trip) and mileage.

Yeah... Uber could not possibly have made it more complicated for drivers or passengers to understand how the fare is calculated in different markets.


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## chuck50 (Dec 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Well, sort of - but it sounds like you misunderstand.
> *In Philly, while there will be both a time and mileage component to the fare, the are not accrued simultaneously*.
> 
> For example, if you're sitting at a red-light for 2 minutes, the fare for those 2 min = 2 X $.30= $.60. Obviously, since you're not moving, no mileage charge is being incurred while the time component is being incurred.
> ...


Thanks for that. You explained it much better than the CSR did!!!


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## 2pi (Nov 25, 2014)

NickNolte said:


> I have a feeling a good lawyer will be suing uber. You shouldn't claim something is guaranteed unless it actually is. Just my $0.02. The samething with tipping.


I actually think there's a pretty good case to sue them on the "safe ride" fee. But the "affected" party are the riders, not the drivers.


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## Icybluedge (Oct 30, 2014)

I sell fruit from my trunk. I buy smilies at McDonalds for 50 cents per smilie and sell them for 1.50. This greatly enhances my bottom line. Sometimes I inject them with Vodka and sell them for $3.50 per vodka/smilie. I may raise the price on these to $4.50 soon.


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## Ehmtbescrewingus (Oct 16, 2014)

Used to be fun...now it's rhetorical...


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## Fred Lead (Oct 28, 2014)

Even if we somehow were to get most drivers to strike the "scabs" would be in huge surge zones that would actually be financially worth it to drive in. Seems we don't have any power in the matter.


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## pengduck (Sep 26, 2014)

upnetuser said:


> The translation to that email is:
> 
> Good news! Rates were cut by 23%, expect to make at least 23% less in earnings!!!!!


Or work 23% more hours for the same gross earnings.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

please, NOBODY work for less than $1/hour
if yall do it, they will lower the rate all over the countries, not just in select cities
you can make a profit at less than $1, but its extremely hard and would have to have the lowest rate of dead miles 
possible
but for most folks not likely

DONT DRIVE
if yall band together and dont drive, Uber will be forced to raise the rates back up


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## Raider (Jul 25, 2014)

I really don't know how we can reach all the drivers on a national level. The only way is through the media, or infomercial and we have to front the money for that...and being an Uber driver, we have no money to front, so scratch that. We can ***** and moan here, but it falls to deaf ears. Quite frankly, it's one of those cases where if you can't handle the heat, don't go in the kitchen. I really have no clue why they keep slashing rates, rides are abundance, people are not complaining about rates, they complain about surge, well that i can understand. But come on, if it ain't broke, why fix it?

I remember the good ole days, make 200 bucks easy in a few hours....now u work all day and get hemorrhoids from sitting too long, you don't come close to that number...


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## 3MATX (Oct 6, 2014)

Print this and distribute it to every passenger you get.


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## Oc_DriverX (Apr 29, 2014)

3MATX said:


> Print this and distribute it to every passenger you get.
> View attachment 3705


First, I appreciate the sentiment.

Than being said, there are a couple of things wrong with the flyer.

sercice s/b: service
stastical s/b: statistical

I know there are questions about Uber insurance, but do you really believe that Uber passengers are not insured when they are on active ride? (Would Lyft's insurance be any different?)


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## Airborneshodan (Oct 8, 2014)

wisuber said:


> Same thing here in the Milwaukee burbs. My husband was one of the only cars out here. Passengers were thrilled to have service out here. He will be cutting down his driving time significantly now and will only work during peak hours of guarantee or when there is chance for surge. Lots of customers will not be able to be serviced out here now.
> 
> But the thing that ****ing kills me is that there seems to be more cars out than normal in downtown Milwaukee all day and night today...WTF?


 Obviously some drivers have to drive longer to pay bills. I feel sorry for them. I could easily see how a person fell for the uber kool aid, quit a job or bought an uber car.


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## Akram (Oct 25, 2014)

I am glad people are waking up to what Uber is, Blood sucking bastards


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

I agree, there is a threshold, a point of diminishing returns. I believe the current rates have crossed that threshold.
For me, it was about $1.65 per mile in my town. I often had $400 nights, fridays, saturdays, and $300 sundays. 
Today, I'm lucky to exceed $225 on a saturday and I'm doing more trips than I was, but not that much more, just fewer valleys,
mostly peaks now, except for Sunday is a little slower.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

Bart McCoy said:


> please, NOBODY work for less than $1/hour
> if yall do it, they will lower the rate all over the countries, not just in select cities
> you can make a profit at less than $1, but its extremely hard and would have to have the lowest rate of dead miles
> possible
> ...


Agreed! You can thank the Chicago drivers for that. Keep driving @.90 cents per mile..low & behold those same rates came to Dallas & LA. Calif. I quit!


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

Airborneshodan said:


> Obviously some drivers have to drive longer to pay bills. I feel sorry for them. I could easily see how a person fell for the uber kool aid, quit a job or bought an uber car.


I know a driver who bought a Camrey in the Dallas market who is paying $1,200.00 a month. .90 cents per mile $4.00 minimum.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

Oc_DriverX said:


> First, I appreciate the sentiment.
> 
> Than being said, there are a couple of things wrong with the flyer.
> 
> ...


Lyft has higher deductibles on their insurance than Uber. I think $2,500.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Pretty much anyone driving UberX 5-7 days/wk right now could make much more by tending bar 3 nights a week - and have a lot more fun.


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Pretty much anyone driving UberX 5-7 days/wk right now could make much more by tending bar 3 nights a week - and have a lot more fun.


Or working at McDonald's full time if they don't have bartending skills


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## RideshareGuru (Nov 17, 2014)

3MATX said:


> Print this and distribute it to every passenger you get.
> View attachment 3705


I think you'd be better off posting them around town or handing them out on Broadway


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Pretty much anyone driving UberX 5-7 days/wk right now could make much more by tending bar 3 nights a week - and have a lot more fun.


doesnt it matter which market you're in and the rate though?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Bart McCoy said:


> doesnt it matter which market you're in and the rate though?


yeah - it does, I think. San Francisco drivers tell me that because they have virtually no 'dead' (unpaid) miles, they make money.


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## Uberdawg (Oct 23, 2014)

I had my best per hour day last Saturday because they are finally letting us do XL only. Netted over $40 per hour for 4 hours. Can't do that everyday but may help weekends be a little more profitable around here.

X rates are still $1.35 here but it still sucks doing rides for 20 that used to be 28. I took 2 rides today, guy has a natural gas Civic and the other was an Altima. Well kept cars and nice drivers finally. They can do good at those rates with those cars. My Suburban leaves a lot to be desired at those rates.


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## zanememjade (Dec 9, 2015)

DriverJ said:


> They've been going with this lie since the first rate cuts. Just like they're going with the $100,000/year driver earnings lie. The company is scum, the CEO is a lying scumbag asshole. It's the same old story.


CEO is the 666 devil himself. Travis is second coming of hitter. The anti-Christ


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## uber strike (Jan 10, 2016)

winter slump will be over on the 21st. uber should restore rates since they said the cuts were temporary.


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## zanememjade (Dec 9, 2015)

T


uber strike said:


> winter slump will be over on the 21st. uber should restore rates since they said the cuts were temporary.


 temporary my ass. Uber is a lying company. They lied to all drivers when they said its for winter rates


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## uber strike (Jan 10, 2016)

zanememjade said:


> T
> 
> temporary my ass. Uber is a lying company. They lied to all drivers when they said its for winter rates


so who wants to work for a corrupt company that treats their drivers like this?


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## zanememjade (Dec 9, 2015)

uber strike said:


> so who wants to work for a corrupt company that treats their drivers like this?


Stupid people who like to work for peanuts


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## zanememjade (Dec 9, 2015)

Not 


uber strike said:


> so who wants to work for a corrupt company that treats their drivers like this?


 Not me


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## William1964 (Jul 28, 2015)

This is simple math.

You have $12. One service is offering a ride for $10 the other service is offering the same ride for $6.

Because the $6 fare is lower there will be two rides for the same $12


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## tucstwo (Jan 16, 2016)

This whole narrative "lower rates means more fares" is pointless because Uber doesn't advertise their fares to the customers anymore. If you go in the pax app you will see for yourself they just offer estimates. The fare rates are gone. How does one drive up demand if their customers don't even know about the discounts?


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## ATX 22 (Jun 17, 2015)

Lower fares do create more demand. Unfortunately for the individual driver, it doesn't change the number of trips a single driver can do in a 60 minute span.


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## Smoothandle (Nov 1, 2016)

wisuber said:


> Same thing here in the Milwaukee burbs. My husband was one of the only cars out here. Passengers were thrilled to have service out here. He will be cutting down his driving time significantly now and will only work during peak hours of guarantee or when there is chance for surge. Lots of customers will not be able to be serviced out here now.
> 
> But the thing that &%[email protected]!*ing kills me is that there seems to be more cars out than normal in downtown Milwaukee all day and night today...WTF?


This is actually kinda interesting, Uber may look at driver habits in some markets and those with a lot of "full time drivers" may see an increase in time spent onlinefrom them just in order to make the minimum they need for the next week.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Smoothandle said:


> This is actually kinda interesting, Uber may look at driver habits in some markets and those with a lot of "full time drivers" may see an increase in time spent onlinefrom them just in order to make the minimum they need for the next week.


For a while. Until they quit in disgust.


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## VegasR (Oct 18, 2016)

tohunt4me said:


> For a while. Until they quit in disgust.


We live in the miraculous Era of the jobless recovery. It's not like you can walk out the door and grab a union job, or a steady white collar job at will.


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