# What business structure are you using?



## Paul Collins

Interested to know what drivers are using.


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## Who is John Galt?

Paul Collins said:


> Interested to know what drivers are using.


A car.


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## Ben Hall

Who is John Galt? said:


> A car.


Is this the shortest post you have written?


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## Who is John Galt?

Ben Hall said:


> Is this the shortest post you have written?


No.


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## UberDriverAU

Who is John Galt? said:


> No.


That just might have been the most predictable post you've ever made Mr Galt.


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## Paul Collins

From an accountant. Will name and link I hope when and if he/she gets a response. 

‘Hi Paul, Thanks for getting in touch, and apologies for the delayed response. I've been having this battle with the ATO over the last few months. Although it is unorthodox, there is no rule to my knowledge that states that drivers cannot trade in a company if they choose, just like any other business in Australia is free to choose what entity to trade in. And yet these drivers are being harassed by the ATO for not declaring income and lodging BAS's under a personal ABN despite having met all their obligations to the ATO within their company. I have just today made a submission in writing to the ATO for definitive resolution to this ongoing issue, and I'll be sure to share their response when it comes. Would you mind sending me an email Paul so that I can tag you in my list of drivers interested in the ATO's response? That way I can be sure to let you know. The address is xxxx Thanks Paul.


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## Who is John Galt?

Awesome !
Hopefully there will be silence here while we wait.


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## SolsUber101

Yep, it's eerily quiet...ATO has a frown.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> From an accountant. Will name and link I hope when and if he/she gets a response.
> 
> 'Hi Paul, Thanks for getting in touch, and apologies for the delayed response. I've been having this battle with the ATO over the last few months. Although it is unorthodox, there is no rule to my knowledge that states that drivers cannot trade in a company if they choose, just like any other business in Australia is free to choose what entity to trade in. And yet these drivers are being harassed by the ATO for not declaring income and lodging BAS's under a personal ABN despite having met all their obligations to the ATO within their company. I have just today made a submission in writing to the ATO for definitive resolution to this ongoing issue, and I'll be sure to share their response when it comes. Would you mind sending me an email Paul so that I can tag you in my list of drivers interested in the ATO's response? That way I can be sure to let you know. The address is xxxx Thanks Paul.


Paul, would you be gracious enough to share with us the message you sent to this unnamed accountant?


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Paul, would you be gracious enough to share with us the message you sent to this unnamed accountant?


'Hi. Do you have any information on the 10% of drivers who are using a company or trust. The ato are advising these people their need to be sole traders with a seperate abn?'

This accountant specialises in Uber Drivers. I would mention the company if I was permitted to and it was not against the rules.


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## Jordan23

I can't see any advantage to registering as a company unless you're assessable income is over 80k.


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## Paul Collins

Jordan23 said:


> I can't see any advantage to registering as a company unless you're assessable income is over 80k.


I think you would find that people would not be setting up an ACN for uber activities, rather, they already have an ACN running for other business activities.


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## Thing

Setting up ABN's, ACN's, finding accountants & paying same to interpret ATO requirements then having them do your GST each quarter & annual taxation  - becoming quite expensive...










1. Making EXTRA money with your car is now quite an expensive proposition

2. Its almost laughable that the picture shows wads of $$$$ flying out of the car - because that is the reality  with all the new fee's, licences, CTP, & the usual associated costs - your hard earned $$$ will simply fly out the door


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## Irishjohn831

Ponzi


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## AvengingxxAngel

Aren't Uber drivers contracted to Uber or any other rideshare company they may drive for as a sole trader?
An Uber driver is not a company. 
A sole trader is an individual working for themself.


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## Lowestformofwit

AvengingxxAngel said:


> Aren't Uber drivers contracted to Uber or any other rideshare company they may drive for as a sole trader?
> An Uber driver is not a company.
> A sole trader is an individual working for themself.


I seem to recall a thread about this, last weekend.
Just saying...


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## AvengingxxAngel

Lowestformofwit said:


> I seem to recall a thread about this, last weekend.
> Just saying...


Oh, didn't see it.


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## Lowestformofwit

AvengingxxAngel said:


> Oh, didn't see it.


https://uberpeople.net/threads/ato-email.211602/


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## UberDriverAU

Lowestformofwit said:


> https://uberpeople.net/threads/ato-email.211602/


To be fair, someone from the Gold Coast might not frequent the Melbourne forum.


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## Lowestformofwit

UberDriverAU said:


> To be fair, someone from the Gold Coast might not frequent the Melbourne forum.


Yep, finally dawned on me as to why not.
Hadn't realised it was a Melbourne thread, until I went looking for it in Bris, then Australia, both with no luck.
So, now posted the link for her.
Pleased to see she understood the nature of the contracting parties by herself, unlike some "expert".


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## Bandy

Thing said:


> Setting up ABN's, ACN's, finding accountants & paying same to interpret ATO requirements then having them do your GST each quarter & annual taxation  - becoming quite expensive...
> 
> 1. Making EXTRA money with your car is now quite an expensive proposition


And all for $1.00 per kilometre.
Or $1.02 if Flip Flops recommendation comes off.
Actually, it's $0.78 per KM...


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## Paul Collins

Bandy said:


> And all for $1.00 per kilometre.
> Or $1.02 if Flip Flops recommendation comes off.
> Actually, it's $0.78 per KM...












https://uberpeople.net/search/51556694/?q=$1.50&o=relevance&c[user][0]=85299


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## Who is John Galt?

.
And your point is?

I promote to at least $1.50 per km = I accept whatever Über gives me = I am a great negotiator for drivers = I am Paul Collins.
.


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## Paul Collins

Who is John Galt? said:


> .
> And your point is?
> 
> I promote to at least $1.50 per km = I accept whatever Über gives me = I am a great negotiator for drivers = I am Paul Collins.
> .


Just 'setting the record straight' on how 'flip flop' liked my $1.50 goal and then flips about making stuff up. Best all readers know the truth.


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## Who is John Galt?

Paul Collins said:


> Best all readers know the truth.





Paul Collins said:


> I was on ABC Nightlife last night to *set the record straight about GST and tax paid by Uber *in Oz at 45.32 mins in after the presenter announced that his credit card is charged from Dublin.
> 
> I said way to many %'s but *I think I got the message across* that GST and tax is paid by uber drivers and by uber Australia.


Thanks for *setting the record straight.
*
*.*


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## Paul Collins

Who is John Galt? said:


> Thanks for *setting the record straight.
> *
> *.*


Your welcome. I did set the record straight about drivers paying the full GST on fares and Uber Australia Pty Ltd paying tax.
I look forward to hearing you on national radio.


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## Who is John Galt?

Paul Collins said:


> Your welcome. I did set the record straight about drivers paying the full GST on fares and Uber Australia Pty Ltd paying tax.
> I look forward to hearing you on national radio.


I bet you do. Unfortunately, I only accept female groupies.

How are you going with *your* structure, PSI income and all associated tax avoidance issues. Please set the record straight there.


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## Paul Collins

Who is John Galt? said:


> I bet you do. Unfortunately, I only accept female groupies.
> 
> How are you going with *your* structure, PSI income and all associated tax avoidance issues. Please set the record straight there.


Thanks for the question that actually relates to the thread. Nice to see.

My accountant has advised me due to my structure that PSI does not apply. Each driver should make their own enquiry regarding this to their accountant.

As my company owns the car, my accountant advice is that I (sole trader) can rent it from that company at a rate of 67 cents per km, and given I am doing approx 70,000kms, per year a charge of approx $46,000 would be acceptable as an arms length transaction and it includes all costs, including petrol. It is likely to be less however, given the total uber income. If I am 'forced' to register an separate ABN as a sole trader, then this will be my action to take.



Bandy said:


> You then state to oober that we don't need a 20, 30, 40 50 cent rise in the kilometre rate.


Ah no, I did not state that at all. I suggested the way to get to $1.50 could be taken in small incriments. I did suggest that as petrol and compliance costs rise, raising the rate in small increments would be better than no rate rise at all.


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## Bandy

Paul Collins said:


> 1. Rates - über are aware that rates are big concern to all drivers. We made some headway in presenting an argument that perhaps rates could change to reflect cost base changes such as petrol price rises etc, so we do not need to get a 20, 30 or 40% rise, but perhaps a small rise to compensate for increased direct costs etc. This was well received and they will digest the suggestions.


In simple math, you out $0.02 per km rise. No mention of $1.50.
If you can't do the simple equation, I can't help you...you're beyond help.


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## Bandy

Paul Collins said:


> Thanks for the question that actually relates to the thread. Nice to see.
> 
> My accountant has advised me due to my structure that PSI does not apply. Each driver should make their own enquiry regarding this to their accountant.
> 
> As my company owns the car, my accountant advice is that I (sole trader) can rent it from that company at a rate of 67 cents per km, and given I am doing approx 70,000kms, per year a charge of approx $46,000 would be acceptable as an arms length transaction and it includes all costs, including petrol. It is likely to be less however, given the total uber income. If I am 'forced' to register an separate ABN as a sole trader, then this will be my action to take.
> 
> Ah no, I did not state that at all. I suggested the way to get to $1.50 could be taken in small incriments. I did suggest that as petrol and compliance costs rise, raising the rate in small increments would be better than no rate rise at all.


You are correct. You said no need to increase rates by 20%, 30% or 40%...no $1.50 anywhere.


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## Paul Collins

Bandy said:


> In simple math, you out $0.02 per km rise. No mention of $1.50.
> If you can't do the simple equation, I can't help you...you're beyond help.


Uber have been aware on my position of $1.50 since the rates were lowered.

I do not recall you actually being at any uber management meetings with myself, so I assume, you actually have no idea at all.

Perhaps read all the posts related to my $1.50 stance.

https://uberpeople.net/search/51556694/?q=$1.50&o=relevance&c[user][0]=85299



Bandy said:


> You are correct. You said no need to increase rates by 20%, 30% or 40%...no $1.50 anywhere parrot.


You really do have some comprehension issues. Sorry I can not help you with that.

'perhaps rates could change to reflect cost base changes such as petrol price rises' means exactly that and in no way did it mean that my stance of $1.50 per km had changed. I was suggesting a different way to get to the desired rate. Now, what can you report on your dealings with uber management? Oh that's right, you have none.

Now have you any comments on the actual tread, or just more name calling?


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## Bandy

Paul Collins said:


> Uber have been aware on my position of $1.50 since the rates were lowered.
> 
> I do not recall you actually being at any uber management meetings with myself, so I assume, you actually have no idea at all.
> 
> Perhaps read all the posts related to my $1.50 stance.
> 
> https://uberpeople.net/search/51556694/?q=$1.50&o=relevance&c[user][0]=85299


omg, secret whispers. So now he has flip flopped yet again and says he privately mentioned $1.50 rise per km, but is more than chuffed with $0.02....grow up parrot. 
You have distinct anti social issues. Noted.
Get help..

by the way, that was in March. Are they still *digesting *a 2 cent rise?


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## Paul Collins

Bandy said:


> omg, secret whispers. So now he has flip flopped yet again and says he privately mentioned $1.50 rise per km, but is more than chuffed with $0.02....


I have always stated my $1.50 position to uber since the last rate decrease. Once again, you knew that in Feb, 2017 when you liked my post and it is you that is making stuff up without any personal knowledge of what is stated or not stated to uber management.

Now, can you post anything to do with the actual thread, or are you happy to just keep calling me names? That is against the forum rules I thought.... just saying


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## Thing

Paul Collins said:


> Just 'setting the record straight' .................................Best all readers know the truth.


Why is it then that you have gone back through other threads and deleted a large proportion of your comments, specifically the ones that we challenge you about due to your constant contradictions ???

I suggest when people see flip flops post they hit the reply tab so it quotes his post --- because he goes back and deletes them all  after we point out how stupid & contradicting he is

https://uberpeople.net/threads/why-drivers-have-no-complaint.212678/page-2#post-3184138

This thread is an example, read through it & you will see he deleted almost all of his comments 

Just setting the record straight & best that all readers know the truth


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## Bandy

This guy thinks dealing with oober is 'special'.
This is the company prepared to dump all of it's drivers once autonomous vehicles are up and running. In the mean time, they are screwing us by lowering rates, putting most drivers on a 17 year olds hourly rate.
Rate cuts aside, we lost a further 10% with GST...


He is an antagonist troll and should be barred from this forum...


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## Paul Collins

Thing said:


> Why is it then that you have gone back through other threads and deleted a large proportion of your comments, specifically the ones that we challenge you about due to your constant contradictions ???
> 
> I suggest when people see flip flops post they hit the reply tab so it quotes his post --- because he goes back and deletes them all  after we point out how stupid & contradicting he is
> 
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/why-drivers-have-no-complaint.212678/page-2#post-3184138
> 
> This thread is an example, read through it & you will see he deleted almost all of his comments
> 
> Just setting the record straight & best that all readers know the truth


I deleted them as I was feeding the trolls and I was lowering my standards to those of the trolls. Quite easy to identify them in the thread you linked to. Posts like yours have zero to do with the topic of the thread and are purely confrontational. Once again, I suspect I am feeding the trolls, so only posts related to the actual topic are posts I will reply to.


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## Bandy

Paul Collins said:


> Posts like yours have zero to do with the topic of the thread and are purely confrontational.


 It's got everything to do with your credibility on the subject matter, which is in a nose dive as usual. If you speak nonsense, anyone has the right to call you out for what you are...


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## Thing

Paul Collins said:


> I deleted them as I was feeding the trolls and I was lowering my standards to those of the trolls. Quite easy to identify them in the thread you linked to. Posts like yours have zero to do with the topic of the thread and are purely confrontational. Once again, I suspect I am feeding the trolls, so only posts related to the actual topic are posts I will reply to.


It can't be regarded as _feeding the trolls_ when people pick up your errors & contradictions then quote them back to you asking why ???

You live in a delusional world if you expect everyone to agree with you when you post something --- your constant cravings for adoration in this forum because you claim to be an Uber confidante is tiresome & boring. & as Bandy stated, we challenge your credibility and prove with your contradictory posts that the same is in question.


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## Paul Collins

It is alarming that there are two 'none' votes. Hard to tell if they are real or not.

Interesting article.

http://www.smh.com.au/small-busines...-much-choice-do-you-have-20160222-gn00or.html


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> My accountant has advised me due to my structure that PSI does not apply. Each driver should make their own enquiry regarding this to their accountant.


Did your accountant advise you that you don't have PSI income, or that the rules don't apply to your PSI income?


Paul Collins said:


> As my company owns the car, my accountant advice is that I (sole trader) can rent it from that company at a rate of 67 cents per km, and given I am doing approx 70,000kms, per year a charge of approx $46,000 would be acceptable as an arms length transaction and it includes all costs, including petrol. It is likely to be less however, given the total uber income. If I am 'forced' to register an separate ABN as a sole trader, then this will be my action to take.


Would you enter into the same agreement with an independent third party? If the answer to that is no, then it's not an arms length transaction. Personally, I think it would be a foolish act to enter into a genuine commercial agreement where you had to pay 67 c/km.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Did your accountant advise you that you don't have PSI income, or that the rules don't apply to your PSI income?
> 
> Would you enter into the same agreement with an independent third party? If the answer to that is no, then it's not an arms length transaction. Personally, I think it would be a foolish act to enter into a genuine commercial agreement where you had to pay 67 c/km.


I asked a simple question. Do I need to worry about PSI and his response was that it did not apply to me in my current structure. I will enquire further based on your question.

67cents per km for a new Jeep Patriot that includes all costs including petrol. Sounds quite reasonable to me however, as I stated it would be lower due to what I actually earn form Uber activity.

https://www.ato.gov.au/uploadedFiles/Content/MEI/downloads/Working_out_if_the_PSI_rules_apply.pdf

Step 2: Results test
For the PSI being tested, you must be:

paid to produce a specific result - yes
required to provide the equipment or tools, and - yes
required to have mistakes fixed at your own expense. - yes
You pass the results test, so the PSI rules don't apply.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> I asked a simple question. Do I need to worry about PSI and his response was that it did not apply to me in my current structure. I will enquire further based on your question.
> 
> 67cents per km for a new Jeep Patriot that includes all costs including petrol. Sounds quite reasonable to me however, as I stated it would be lower due to what I actually earn form Uber activity.


I doubt your Jeep is now "new" as you've had it for a while. Because all vehicles have both fixed and variable costs, you can't reduce costs to a a single $/km figure regardless of distance covered. A better approach would be to have a fixed $/week charge and separate $/km charge and whack on a reasonable profit margin on top of actual costs. That's much more likely to result in a genuine arms length arrangement.


Paul Collins said:


> Step 2: Results test
> For the PSI being tested, you must be:
> 
> paid to produce a specific result - yes
> required to provide the equipment or tools, and - yes
> required to have mistakes fixed at your own expense. - yes
> You pass the results test, so the PSI rules don't apply.


You fail the results test because you are not paid for a specific result, and you are not required to fix mistakes at your own expense:
(1) You don't get fixed amount for a "result", you get paid by time and distance. If it takes longer to take someone home because of an accident on the route home lead to a diversion, they pay more for the trip.
(2) If you kick someone out for misbehaving half way home you still get paid for the time and distance covered, even though you didn't provide the "result".
(3) If you cancel because of a "no show" you still get paid, even though you didn't provide the "result".
(4) If you were to take someone in the exact opposite direction to where they wanted to go and they asked to get out and cancelled the trip, their next subsequent trip home would cost more because they are further away from home than they started. You would not have to pay to "fix" the mistake that you made.


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## Paul Collins

From the accountant/s. ( Both CPA's) Hopefully this will end the PSI issue.
Are you a qualified accountant? I do not mean any disrespect however I guess not as you would have know already that PSI does not apply to uber driving. What is your profession?

"PSI does not apply. This is because the fee you charge your riders is for a combination of personal labour (the act of driving) and provision of assets (the car itself). PSI rules only apply when the activity is predominantly provision of personal labour. Therefore Uber driving is not considered PSI in the first place.
If it was considered PSI, then the rules would not apply because your passengers are all individual customers, so you do not receive more than 80% of your income from one source. However we don't even need to consider that rule because Uber driving is not PSI at all. "

and from a second account via social media.
"It is personal services business income"

Whatever the charge that my company charges for the Jeep will be market rates etc, or at a lower rate that matches the income. The point is I can do it quite legally and will if I am deemed to be a sole trader for uber.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> From the accountant. Hopefully this will end the PSI issue.
> 
> "PSI does not apply. This is because the fee you charge your riders is for a combination of personal labour (the act of driving) and provision of assets (the car itself). PSI rules only apply when the activity is predominantly provision of personal labour. Therefore Uber driving is not considered PSI in the first place.
> If it was considered PSI, then the rules would not apply because your passengers are all individual customers, so you do not receive more than 80% of your income from one source. However we don't even need to consider that rule because Uber driving is not PSI at all. "


This advice is wrong on several fronts:

(1) For income to be PSI, it has to be _mainly_ from personal labour. The rules are if *50% or more* of the income comes from labour then *100%* of the income is PSI. If *<50%* of the income comes from labour then *none* of the income is PSI. If you are being advised that no Uber income can be PSI, you are being misadvised.

(2) You need to crunch the numbers to determine if labour is 50% or more.

(3) If you pass the 80% test, then you need to pass one of: the unrelated clients test, the employment test, the business premises test. You pass none of these tests because:

(i) You do not make offers to the public, and even if you did there would be no connection between such advertising and any trips you accepted through the driver app. Because of this you fail the unrelated clients test.

(ii) You must perform the work personally and do not have other employees or contractors or an apprentice perform the work. Because of this you fail the employment test.

(iii) You do not perform the work at business premises. Because of this you fail the business premises test.​It seems to me that whoever provided you with this advice doesn't have a proper understanding of the PSI rules.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> This advice is wrong on several fronts:
> 
> (1) For income to be PSI, it has to be _mainly_ from personal labour. The rules are if *50% or more* of the income comes from labour then *100%* of the income is PSI. If *<50%* of the income comes from labour then *none* of the income is PSI. If you are being advised that no Uber income can be PSI, you are being misadvised.
> 
> (2) You need to crunch the numbers to determine if labour is 50% or more.
> 
> (3) If you pass the 80% test, then you need to pass one of: the unrelated clients test, the employment test, the business premises test. You pass none of these tests because:
> 
> (i) You do not make offers to the public, and even if you did there would be no connection between such advertising and any trips you accepted through the driver app. Because of this you fail the unrelated clients test.
> 
> (ii) You must perform the work personally and do not have other employees or contractors or an apprentice perform the work. Because of this you fail the employment test.
> 
> (iii) You do not perform the work at business premises. Because of this you fail the business premises test.​It seems to me that whoever provided you with this advice doesn't have a proper understanding of the PSI rules.


Two CPA accountants that I know and who are not anonymous to me. So I am happy with that. Once again and with no disrespect, are you a CPA? Even if you answer yes to that, you remain anonymous so I can not follow any anonymous advice regarding tax or the law as I am sure you would understand.

I would also think that 90% of Uber income is for the car costs.
In my case 80cents minus gst of 9 cents, 71 cents income and the ato and many others state it costs 67cents per km to run. Mmmmmm.... at the very least the car cost is well over 50% of the income.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Two CPA accountants that I know and who are not anonymous to me. So I am happy with that. Once again and with no disrespect, are you a CPA? Even if you answer yes to that, you remain anonymous so I can not follow any anonymous advice regarding tax or the law as I am sure you would understand.


I would trust a publicly available tax ruling over the word of a CPA who contradicts that ruling. The use of a vehicle does not in and of itself guarantee that Uber income will not be PSI. And if riders are indeed unrelated and individual clients, then each trip will either be PSI or not. Ever had a long trip on decent surge rates? This will almost certainly be classified as PSI because your vehicle costs don't change just because you're on a surge trip.

What's the bet your CPAs have professional indemnity insurance? Why's that? Just in case they make a blunder one day and get sued for providing dodgy advice.


Paul Collins said:


> I would also think that 90% of Uber income is for the car costs.
> In my case 80cents minus gst of 9 cents, 71 cents income and the ato and many others state it costs 67cents per km to run. Mmmmmm.... at the very least the car cost is well over 50% of the income.


The ATO makes no statement about how much it costs to run a car per kilometer. They simply inform you how much you can claim as a tax deduction for up to 5,000 business kms. The reason they include such a limit is because the rate includes an allowance for fixed costs, and they would be allowing for too much if they let you claim 75K kms using that rate.

It's very common to use average costs per km out of context because they invariably are based on assumptions that don't apply to most Uber drivers, eg. doing 15K kms per year. In reality, the more kms you drive per year the lower your average costs per km become and the closer they get to your variable costs per km.

And if the figures you were quoting are anywhere near accurate, then every car rental company must be running at a substantial loss. You can very easily find a car for Uber that's around $200 per week with 1,000 kms included and $0.10/km for excess kms. Including fuel, that's around $0.30/km for included kms, and $0.20/km for excess kms.


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## Kylar

UberDriverAU said:


> I would trust a publicly available tax ruling over the word of a CPA who contradicts that ruling. The use of a vehicle does not in and of itself guarantee that Uber income will not be PSI. And if riders are indeed unrelated and individual clients, then each trip will either be PSI or not. Ever had a long trip on decent surge rates? This will almost certainly be classified as PSI because your vehicle costs don't change just because you're on a surge trip.
> 
> What's the bet your CPAs have professional indemnity insurance? Why's that? Just in case they make a blunder one day and get sued for providing dodgy advice.
> 
> The ATO makes no statement about how much it costs to run a car per kilometer. They simply inform you how much you can claim as a tax deduction for up to 5,000 business kms. The reason they include such a limit is because the rate includes an allowance for fixed costs, and they would be allowing for too much if they let you claim 75K kms using that rate.
> 
> It's very common to use average costs per km out of context because they invariably are based on assumptions that don't apply to most Uber drivers, eg. doing 15K kms per year. In reality, the more kms you drive per year the lower your average costs per km become and the closer they get to your variable costs per km.
> 
> And if the figures you were quoting are anywhere near accurate, then every car rental company must be running at a substantial loss. You can very easily find a car for Uber that's around $200 per week with 1,000 kms included and $0.10/km for excess kms. Including fuel, that's around $0.30/km for included kms, and $0.20/km for excess kms.


I started out doing Uber in a 2017 Corolla from Ace, cost me $225 a week for unlimited ks (as long as I didn't go to WA or Tasmania for some reason), I considered the slightly higher cost better than paying out $0.10/km.


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## Thing

UberDriverAU you can never win an argument/discussion with flip flop 
Once he says something then everyone must agree ... if you don't agree, then he will ask you if you are a professional in that area & even if you are, then you're anonymous and therefore your information cannot be trusted...

Even your proof from ATO ruling's is irrelevant because you are anonymous & thus wrong (in the world according to flip flop) ... No matter what you say, the discussion will just go back & forth until the thread is locked  -- then he will start a similar pointless discussion on another thread (pointless - well, the topic might be a good topic, but he, invariably destroys it with his inability to agree or accept anyone elses point of view or facts)


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> I would trust a publicly available tax ruling over the word of a CPA who contradicts that ruling. The use of a vehicle does not in and of itself guarantee that Uber income will not be PSI. And if riders are indeed unrelated and individual clients, then each trip will either be PSI or not. Ever had a long trip on decent surge rates? This will almost certainly be classified as PSI because your vehicle costs don't change just because you're on a surge trip.
> 
> What's the bet your CPAs have professional indemnity insurance? Why's that? Just in case they make a blunder one day and get sued for providing dodgy advice.
> 
> The ATO makes no statement about how much it costs to run a car per kilometer. They simply inform you how much you can claim as a tax deduction for up to 5,000 business kms. The reason they include such a limit is because the rate includes an allowance for fixed costs, and they would be allowing for too much if they let you claim 75K kms using that rate.
> 
> It's very common to use average costs per km out of context because they invariably are based on assumptions that don't apply to most Uber drivers, eg. doing 15K kms per year. In reality, the more kms you drive per year the lower your average costs per km become and the closer they get to your variable costs per km.
> 
> And if the figures you were quoting are anywhere near accurate, then every car rental company must be running at a substantial loss. You can very easily find a car for Uber that's around $200 per week with 1,000 kms included and $0.10/km for excess kms. Including fuel, that's around $0.30/km for included kms, and $0.20/km for excess kms.


The tax ruling you posted was not specific to an Uber Driver I though.

I have raised this issue in a popular social media platform and the comments confirm that many accountants have confirmed to Uber Drivers that PSI does not apply. For you to use the term 'your' accountants it is very inaccurate.

Perhaps anyone could comment here that they have been told by their professional accountant that PSI does apply?

Until then, the amount of actual professional advice outweighs your personal opinion, in my opinion.

On surge correct, but you are missing something that is far more common, driving 10 kms to do a $6 trip. The kms to the pickups is also business activity.

So we agree to disagree.

edit (updated information has come in) - another CPA has reported that it is PSI Business income, so you are quite correct in questioning PSI. Up until now I have only heard from CPA's that say Uber driving is not PSI, so now we have real issue and I am open to learn more and investigate further. For sole traders this will not really be an issue I suspect, for people using a Company to Trust, it is very important indeed.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> For sole traders this will not really be an issue I suspect, for people using a Company to Trust, it is very important indeed.


It is an issue for sole traders too because if income is correctly classified as PSI and the PSI rules do apply, then certain tax deductions are not allowed. With other types of entities the other consideration is potentially higher marginal tax rates. This could effect a much wider audience of drivers than I initially thought.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> It is an issue for sole traders too because if income is correctly classified as PSI and the PSI rules do apply, then certain tax deductions are not allowed. With other types of entities the other consideration is potentially higher marginal tax rates. This could effect a much wider audience of drivers than I initially thought.


Mmmm, what is the procedure from here? Seek an ATO ruling?


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## Paul Collins

Mmmm.... now we have another accountant saying Uber driving is not PSI. I tend to agree as it seems quite clear to me that well over 50% of the income from Uber is for the use and operation of the car, not the service of the driver.

https://uberpeople.net/threads/accounting-gst-app-for-bas.210887/#post-3219280


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## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> Mmmm, what is the procedure from here? Seek an ATO ruling?


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,maybe it would be possible to include all those questions in National Radio Program of yours????.
Very interesting to listen,even though it took me two weeks to find out your 30 second part of it....


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## Paul Collins

Numbers for Q1. July August and September (part time)
Total Über Fares : $7,625
- Uber Fees : $1,675
- Car Expenses ( petrol) : $2,234

Net Uber Income : $3,716

If this was me as a sole trader then the car (Jeep Patriot), owned by my company would have charged PC, the sole trader, $310 per week for 1500kms/per week, including all expenses (petrol) at $310 per week = $3,720 and PC the sole trader would have lost $4 for the quarter.


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## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> Numbers for Q1. July August and September (part time)
> Total Über Fares : $7,625
> - Uber Fees : $1,675
> - Car Expenses ( petrol) : $2,234
> 
> Net Uber Income : $3,716
> 
> If this was me as a sole trader then the car (Jeep Patriot), owned by my company would have charged PC, the sole trader, $310 per week for 1500kms/per week, including all expenses (petrol) at $310 per week = $3,720 and PC the sole trader would have lost $4 for the quarter.


What business structure are you using?
That is darn impressive,you have saved four bugs !!!!!!


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## Paul Collins

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> What business structure are you using?
> That is darn impressive,you have saved four bugs !!!!!!


I am currently a Company and the ATO want to 'force me' to be a sole trader. Approx 10% of drivers are using a Company or Trust structure.


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## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> I am currently a Company and the ATO want to 'force me' to be a sole trader. Approx 10% of drivers are using a Company or Trust structure.


Is it worth for a $4.00 a quoter in savings?????I suppose with you having a few other businesses driving for Uber is just a relaxation from a real making money jobs and taking stand against ATO is just a matter of principal.
Really enjoyed you on National Radio,did you have to put a "makeup"on in the Studio????


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## tatgoog

I have been scrolling through these posts and have found your posts incredibly helpful. Thank you for all of your insight. I've been looking all over for information trying to figure out what to do... I'm an Uber driver, and I have some health issues which keep me working infrequently. I was hoping to find a way to set my Uber income seperate from me, and more of a business, because there's been a lot of business expenses I want to that income to pay for, before SS counts it. By the way do you know the what's the difference between "firm" and "company"?


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## Icecool

tatgoog said:


> I have been scrolling through these posts and have found your posts incredibly helpful. Thank you for all of your insight. I've been looking all over for information trying to figure out what to do... I'm an Uber driver, and I have some health issues which keep me working infrequently. I was hoping to find a way to set my Uber income seperate from me, and more of a business, because there's been a lot of business expenses I want to that income to pay for, before SS counts it. By the way do you know the what's the difference between "firm" and "company"?


For tax purposes As an Uber driver you are like a taxis driver . You can use a company or trust but you can't leave a profit in the company all profit need to pay you . As for a trust you have to distributed all profit to you . So there are advantages of trading under an entity .


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