# Drivers Union Delivers Petition From Over 1,600 Uber/Lyft Drivers Supporting Fair Pay



## KevinH (Jul 13, 2014)

https://www.dailyrecordnews.com/new...cle_68af87ad-7c1b-5834-9d82-88acb1140c03.html
*Uber/Lyft drivers call on City Council to ensure transparency for riders and a living wage for drivers*

By Teamsters Local 117
Sep 15, 2020 Updated 12 hrs ago









International Brotherhood Of Teamsters. (PRNewsFoto/International Brotherhood of Teamsters)
By Teamsters Local 117

SEATTLE, Sept. 15, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- Today, Uber and Lyft drivers with the Drivers Union delivered a petition signed by over 1,600 drivers calling for fair pay.

The petition, which was delivered at a Seattle City Council hearing on Mayor Durkan's "Fare Share" Plan, urged councilmembers to build on the Mayor's plan with provisions to ensure greater transparency for riders and a living wage for drivers.

"My pay has been cut every year since I started driving, while the cost of living keeps going up," said *Don Creery an Uber and Lyft driver since 2013 and a Drivers Union leader*. "City Council can take a major step towards fairness with modest improvements to the Mayor's plan that implement transparency and living wage protections benefiting both riders and drivers."

The Drivers Union petition calls for fare transparency for riders and drivers, minimum pay per trip, increased mileage pay, and safeguards for drivers with high cost vehicle loans.

Drivers Union has led the campaign to put fair pay for Uber and Lyft drivers on the agenda at City Hall - surrounding City Hall with a driver caravan, organizing multiple drivers actions, and documenting Uber and Lyft taking more from riders, while paying drivers less.

"The need for Fair Pay for Uber and Lyft drivers has never been more urgent than now - in the midst of the dual crises of a global pandemic and a public reckoning with the reality of systemic racial inequity," said *Nurayne Fofana, an Uber and Lyft driver and Drivers Union leader*. "Before COVID, the driver community - made up largely of Black and brown immigrants - already earned less than minimum wage after expenses. Now, drivers face additional risks while spending extra uncompensated time and expenses to clean vehicles and ensure the safety of passengers and their families."

Last November, the city passed the first phase of Mayor Durkan's Fare Share plan, including first-in-the-nation legal protections for drivers who face unwarranted deactivations.

The Fare Share plan has been backed by a coalition of over 60 housing, transit, labor, environmental, health, and social justice groups that came together to make sure Seattle's growth works for everyone
.
"I am humbled by the tenacity of driver activists who have led a multi-year campaign to push back against pay cuts from Uber and Lyft and put Fair Pay on the agenda at City Hall," said *John Scearcy, Secretary-Treasurer of Teamsters Local 117*. "The resilience of these workers - building unity and solidarity amongst a diverse workforce that has been excluded from the protections of traditional labor laws - shows the best of the labor movement."

The Fair Pay Standard - which would complete the Mayor's Fare Share plan - is built off of over a year of stakeholder outreach, surveys and townhalls which engaged thousands of drivers, and recommendations from a city-commissioned independent study that found that Uber/Lyft drivers in Seattle often earn less than minimum wage after expenses.

Uber and Lyft have sought to avoid pay regulation, most recently by financing a competing study which has been widely criticized in the academic community for methodological flaws and bias.

_Drivers Union__, affiliated with Teamsters Local Union 117, is an association of thousands of Uber and Lyft drivers in Seattle standing up for fairness in the for-hire transportation industry._

*Contact: Joshua Welter, 206-383-1857*
*[email protected]*


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## DJJoeyZ (May 1, 2020)

On a average day I make $25/hr.
On a good day I make $30/hr.
On a really good day I make $35/hr.

Those people crying/complaining saying they make minimum wage are slackers. No sympathy for folks too lazy to hustle or unable to change their oil, brake pads, can’t get medical or dental coverage.
Survival of the fittest baby. If you’re making
minimum wage and don’t like it, fine, get another job, don’t ask for regulations and ruin
it for others that succeed in this business.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

DJJoeyZ said:


> On a average day I make $25/hr.
> On a good day I make $30/hr.
> On a really good day I make $35/hr.
> 
> ...


Many MORE issues than Pay !

DEACTIVATION DUE TO FALSE ACCUSATIONS !

UNION WOULD STOP THAT COLD !!!


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

tohunt4me said:


> Many MORE issues than Pay !
> 
> DEACTIVATION DUE TO FALSE ACCUSATIONS !
> 
> UNION WOULD STOP THAT COLD !!!


@tohunt4me my brother! That last one is definitely the best case for a union...deactivation due to false accusations. That is the ultimate fear right? For someone to get their income stream slashed to nothing instantly for nothing. Let's see what happens.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Young Kim said:


> @tohunt4me my brother! That last one is definitely the best case for a union...deactivation due to false accusations. That is the ultimate fear right? For someone to get their income stream slashed to nothing instantly for nothing. Let's see what happens.


Not just false accusations from pax, also false accusations from the companies.

Pretty much every time these gig companies (Uber, Lyft, Doordash, etc) don't like something a driver is doing, even if the driver is playing by the rules, they claim that the activity "could be fraud".

These companies like to use accusations of fraud as "escape" clauses in their contracts...

An example is Doordash. Doordash's contract as well as their driver literature states that drivers will never be fired due to low acceptance rates. Seems pretty air tight...

HOWEVER, buried in the contract is an escape clause that says "an unusually low acceptance rate could be an indication of fraud".

BINGO, there's that "fraud" word again.

The complete absence of any job security whatsoever makes a joke out of any claims that gig jobs represent "freedom".


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

DJJoeyZ said:


> On a average day I make $25/hr.
> On a good day I make $30/hr.
> On a really good day I make $35/hr.
> 
> ...


do you want 48c a mile 8c a minute?

cause that's what a lack of regulation leads to,

One paycut at a time and eventually you'll hit it.

And no I'm not talking about the thing were lyft cuts your pay in half and pays for the pickup mileage to.

That's under 30c a mile here.

I used to do amazing and Uber kept jmproving Things until I hit the point that I'm at now.

Paying $150 to rent a taxi when I have a perfectly good Uber eligible car in parked in the taxi parking lot while I'm taking the taxi out....


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> I used to do amazing and Uber kept jmproving Things until I hit the point that I'm at now.


Steve, I think part of the problem is that first-generation drivers thought that the early high pay rates were forever, when in fact they were simply designed to get drivers up and going ..to attract drivers.

The reality is Rideshare requires no special skill sets .. it is simply a minimum wage gig ..just like McDonalds .. it is what it is.

That said the nice part of the gig is that anyone can make a lot more if they simply offer a clean car, clean clothes, well-groomed and have basic customer skills and willing to driver smarter or longer.

Like the Wait Staff at your favorite Restaurant wage is less than Minimum wage but the good wait staff provides professional service always makes more .. and the ones that treat you the customer like they don't give a crap make less


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

dauction said:


> Steve, I think part of the problem is that first-generation drivers thought that the early high pay rates were forever, when in fact they were simply designed to get drivers up and going ..to attract drivers.
> 
> The reality is Rideshare requires no special skill sets .. it is simply a minimum wage gig ..just like McDonalds .. it is what it is.


Your history and analysis of Uber is faulty to say the least, as is your attempt to degrade this job, and so is your comparison to McDonalds.

Drivers made a lot more money on each ride in the early days but so did Uber, due to the fact that prices were much higher.

You claim rideshare has always been a minimum wage job, just like McDonalds (McD usually offers more than minimum, sometimes much more plus raises). Your comparison falls apart due to the fact that minimum wage jobs like McD ATTRACT workers at minimum wage.

According to your history, Uber was forced to offer high wages to attract drivers to a minimum wage job, something McD and other employers never had to do or would do.

In your zeal to act as an apologist for Uber you unwittingly present them as bait and switch scammers.

Uber apologists also like to claim that rideshare is a fun and easy job anyone can do, but according to you, the only way Uber could entice drivers to do a fun and easy minimum wage job was to pay much higher wages in the beginning and cut their pay to shreds later.

Very few drivers now or then signed up with Uber to make minimum wage. They expected to make a lot MORE than minimum. When they discovered that the rates were too low to do it, they joined the rest of the 97% who quit rideshare during their first year.

The fact is Travis was determined to take over the transportation industry and supplant public transit by making rideshare as cheap as a bus and ultimately cheaper than owning a car. That meant fares had to be cut dramatically.

The massive influx of Third World immigrants into rideshare enabled Travis to cut the fares.


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Your history and analysis of Uber is faulty to say the least, as is your attempt to degrade this job, and so is your comparison to McDonalds.
> 
> .


I can't degrade a gig any lower than what it is.. there is nothing special needed by the driver other than to know how to drive.

There is no training, no safety training, no customer relations training, no defensive driving training ..it's essentially the sam eas showing up at McDonalds and telling new employee..OK this is your station when the Fryer beeps pull the fries out of the oil

any Monkey can do it

That said some of us TRY and bring Uber driving up a notch or 2 using skill sets we learned from previous employment (City Bus Driver in my situation) as well as common sense on being professional. Grooming, clean car daily, driving the speed limit , being courteous to all passengers etc..

That said, at its core, it's still just a minimum wage job ...no degree need, not even high school ...hell you don't even need a GED

and STILL have the potential to make $20, $30, $40 hours


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

dauction said:


> I can't degrade a gig any lower than what it is.. there is nothing special needed by the driver other than to know how to drive.
> 
> There is no training, no safety training, no customer relations training, no defensive driving training ..it's essentially the sam eas showing up at McDonalds and telling new employee..OK this is your station when the Fryer beeps pull the fries out of the oil
> 
> ...


Not only couldn't you refute any of my points, you come off as even more clueless by continuing to contradict yourself.

I'm glad I was never one your bus passengers.



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> I used to do amazing and Uber kept jmproving Things until I hit the point that I'm at now.


When did Uber improve things?

Since 2013 it's been a downhill slope of one pay cut after another to the point that pay rates in most markets are about 1/3 of what they were then.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

dauction said:


> it's essentially the sam eas showing up at McDonalds and telling new employee..


...ah, ahem, have you ever been a fast food worker? There is training involved. It's hard ass work too; much harder than plain ole RS, which requires nothing hard.

and the hate on fast food; amazing. Once upon a time it was a great job for HS aged and even college aged kids. You got pay, job experience and in many cases school credits. Plus, looks pretty good on a resume.

Retired as a 'shift manager' Orange Julius; 4 years. Not sure I ever used it on a resume, tho.......


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

DJJoeyZ said:


> On a average day I make $25/hr.
> On a good day I make $30/hr.
> On a really good day I make $35/hr.
> 
> ...


97% of drivers quit their first year, so tell us how many drivers would be "ruined" by regulations.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Not only couldn't you refute any of my points, you come off as even more clueless by continuing to contradict yourself.
> 
> I'm glad I was never one your bus passengers.
> 
> ...


Didn't you get any of the memos?

LOWER PRICES MEANS MORE MONEY!...


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Not only couldn't you refute any of my points, you come off as even more clueless by continuing to contradict yourself.
> 
> I'm glad I was never one your bus passengers.


Nonsense .. Uber continues to attract drivers even those making less than Minimum wage .

Personally, if UBer is forced to make drivers Employees the very first thing they need to do is get rid of Drivers that are not competent enough to make minimum wage on their own as a IC . Seriously you can't be too bright if you cant make /net minimum wage driving uber...Look at those that "cant" .

They are the ones that refuse to start early and grab the moring rush ..they start at 9-10 am when it's dead .work a few hours through lunch and then complain .. or they refuse t work the Bar rush ..

Or they have filthy cars, filthy grooming habits ...they stink their cars stink and they hate their passengers.. loo at all the posts on Up.net 70% are drivers that hate their passengers....

Bottom line .. 70% of all small business FAIL ..same with IC drivers ..70% of the drivers are terrible, they have no clue what it takes to raise the level of their rideshare business..it's always Ubers fault or the passengers faults.

and THATS OK...but they need to be "Fired" .. or quit . 1 They are terrible 2. they are miserable. so quit blaming everyone else and go find something else to do.

This is NOT to say that Uber is blameless..plenty they could change as well. *But if anyone thinks they are going to make what the pride rates were 5 years ago..lol ..it just isn't going to happen so you need to face reality and move on. Those pay rates were simply to get drivers on board driving to build Uber into a dominant rideshare service. To Gain Market share. *


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

dauction said:


> Nonsense .. Uber continue to attract drivers even those making less than Mininum wage .


Incoherent statement.



dauction said:


> Personally if UBer is forced to make drivers Employees


A different topic from my rebuttal which had nothing to do with employee status for drivers, which I personally don't want.



dauction said:


> get rid of Drivers that are not competent enough to make minimum wage on their own as a IC . Seriosely you cant be too bright if oyu cant make /net mininum wage driving uber...Look at those that "cant" .
> 
> They are the ones that refuse to start early and grab the moring rush ..they start at 9-10 am when it's dead .work a few hours through lunch and then complain .. or they refuse t work the Bar rush ..
> 
> Or they have filthy cars, filthy grooming habits ...they stink their cars stink and they hate their passengers.. loo at all the posts on Up.net 70% are drivers that hate their passengers....


You continue to contradict your argument about how rideshare is so easy a monkey can do it while rambling on about all of the job requirements that aren't being met for this easy-enough-for-a-monkey-to-do job.



dauction said:


> Bottom line .. 70% of all small business FAIL ..same with IC drivers


Actually 20% of US small businesses fail the first year, contrast that with the 97% turnover rate of rideshare drivers.



SHalester said:


> ah, ahem, have you ever been a fast food worker? There is training involved. It's hard ass work too; much harder than plain ole RS, which requires nothing hard.


How difficult or easy a job is doesn't always translate to higher or lower wages.

I've done fast food work and I've moved furniture, and considering how vastly harder the moving job was, the pay wasn't all that much higher than the fast food pay.


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Incoherent statement.
> 
> A different topic from my rebuttal which had nothing to do with employee status for drivers, which I personally don't want.
> 
> ...


We are already being paid fairly .. Min wage and beyond.. if certain drivers are unable to make even minimum wage driving then they need to find something other to do then to demand Uber to pay for their failures.

and again Driving Uber is a MINUMUM WAGE Gig .. it requires nothing education-wise and no special skills. You don't even need a GED ..

and ..
How many businesses fail each year?
20% of small businesses fail in their first year, 30% of small business fail in their second year, and 50% of small businesses fail after five years in business. Finally, 70% of small business owners fail in their 10th year in business. Nov 20 2019


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

dauction said:


> We are already being paid fairly


That's your opinion, which isn't shared by the vast majority of drivers including myself.



dauction said:


> if certain drivers are unable to make even minimum wage driving then they need to find something other to do then to demand Uber to pay for their failures.


In all likelihood most drivers are making around minimum wage or a little above, and that's the problem and the main reason 97% quit. A job that requires to drivers to beat up their cars, offers zero benefits, offers zero job security, and pays minimum wage or slightly above it isn't a job that people will continue to do for very long. Thus, the 97% turnover rate.



dauction said:


> How many businesses fail each year?
> 20% of small businesses fail in their first year, 30% of small business fail in their second year, and 50% of small businesses fail after five years in business. Finally, 70% of small business owners fail in their 10th year in business. Nov 20 2019


You're really not helping your argument by your repeated use of the small business failure stats.

While 80% of small businesses are still in business after the first year, only 3% of rideshare drivers are still on the job.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> I've done fast food work and I've moved furniture,


yeah, that's not where I was going and your example make little sense when paired together. I was comparing fast food to RS. Plus was defending fast food as a legit job, since many here trample all over it for some strange reason. Job wise a RS driver will always be looking UP at other jobs, not down.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

dauction said:


> We are already being paid fairly .. Min wage and beyond.. if certain drivers are unable to make even minimum wage driving then they need to find something other to do then to demand Uber to pay for their failures.
> 
> and again Driving Uber is a MINUMUM WAGE Gig .. it requires nothing education-wise and no special skills. You don't even need a GED ..
> 
> ...


It's not the drivers fault if they can't make money in a below $1.00 a mile market.

Sorry to say this but in some places the pay per mile is the problem and at 53c a mile you just can't make shit doing this.

you'll never hit $20 an hour on $3-5 rides. Don't try to convince me otherwise.

Tuesday/Wednesday I had 24 fares for a grand total of $416 (including tips) ($17.33 a fare including tips)

Grand total I averaged just 3 paid miles per fare. I had 85 paid miles out of 308 driven total.

grand total including tips I made $1.35 a mile.

overall...

10 of my fares were less then $10 and another 10 were in the $10-15 range, with just 4 in the $20-50 range.

Converted to X rates 20/24 fares would have been min trips. Grand total those 20 fares would have paid out $60+ tips. Instead I got paid about $275 for them.

And in order to make $1.35 per mile driven I have to charge $2.40-3.00 a mile...

because that white Camry hybrid I drove had "taxi" slapped on the side I got 4.5 TIMES as much per mile as I would ha s gotten on X rates.

The problem is Uber setting the rates so low, not my ability to know what I'm doing.


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## njn (Jan 23, 2016)

Why doesn't the union state the livable wage they are looking to achieve?


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

DJJoeyZ said:


> On a average day I make $25/hr.
> On a good day I make $30/hr.
> On a really good day I make $35/hr.


Drivers average about 25 miles per full hour.

In a 8 hour time block a driver drives about 200 miles.

Under Employee status

8x 15 (minimum wage) = 120$

200 x .57 (mileage comp) = 114$

Total before tip would be 234$

That is 29.25 $ per full hour before tip.

With tip it would be matching what you claim as a " really good day".


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## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> Drivers average about 25 miles per full hour.
> 
> In a 8 hour time block a driver drives about 200 miles.
> 
> ...


The health insurance assistance they are offering in California is a joke. They will give a driver $150 for P/T and $300 for F/T. Insurance for an independent contractor can cost much more than that if you aren't getting assistance from ACA.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Young Kim said:


> @tohunt4me my brother! That last one is definitely the best case for a union...deactivation due to false accusations. That is the ultimate fear right? For someone to get their income stream slashed to nothing instantly for nothing. Let's see what happens.


Made me QUIT DRIVING & seek a Job !

I was Always in TOP 5% of Earners( for Uber)
In New Orleans.

They would E Mail me telling me so.

But
To be cut off by LIES

WITH NO DEFENSE !
UNSUSTAINABLE !

I NEED INCONE I CAN TRUST !

I WAS DRIVING WHEN IT WAS ILLEGAL IN MY CITY !

NOT GOING TO BE LEFT STRANDED BY FALSE ACCUSATIONS !


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

A "union" of independent contractors or business owners is illegal. Price fixing is frowned upon at the federal, state, and local levels.



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> that's what a lack of regulation leads to,


The lack of regulation leads to the market determining the correct fare/fee.



dauction said:


> thought that the early high pay rates were forever, when in fact they were simply designed to get drivers up and going ..to attract drivers.


Correct. Need to attract drivers? Offer a high rate. Have too many drivers? Offer a low rate.



Nats121 said:


> Uber was forced to offer high wages to attract drivers to a minimum wage job, something McD and other employers never had to do or would do.


McD's and other employers obviously didn't need more employees other than those who were attracted by the prevailing wage.



Nats121 said:


> bait and switch scammers.


A neutral economist would call it a company responding to supply and demand. An inflammatory writer may call it a bait and switch scam.



Nats121 said:


> When they discovered that the rates were too low to do it, they joined the rest of the 97% who quit rideshare during their first year.


What's that say about the 3% that put up with the bs? To me, it says its better to net $0 or even lose a bit than take a car title loan. Without the ability to turn car equity into cash, some may lose their car or even their home. Others in the 3% are simply bad at math.



Nats121 said:


> The fact is Travis was determined to take over the transportation industry and supplant public transit by making rideshare as cheap as a bus and ultimately cheaper than owning a car. That meant fares had to be cut dramatically.


Yep.



Nats121 said:


> The massive influx of Third World immigrants into rideshare enabled Travis to cut the fares.


I'm not sure of the source of drivers. I'm am sure there is an over supply of drivers. The over supply will create reduced fares to the drivers. Uber doesn't lower the fares to the driver because they're evil, malicious, or the devil. Uber lowers the fares to the drivers because they can. The founders of Uber didn't start the company to please drivers. The started the business to make money for themselves. If drivers believe they can make money with the offers from Uber, good for them. If drivers believe they can't make money wit the offers from Uber, don't continue to accept their offers.



SHalester said:


> the hate on fast food


Working at a fast food joint would be too tough for me, no matter the pay. But the difficulty only indirectly effects the pay. What directly controls the pay is the supply of workers vs the demand for the workers. The difficulty of the job may effect the supply of workers, an indirect influence.



Nats121 said:


> How difficult or easy a job is doesn't always translate to higher or lower wages.


100% correct. Supply and demand sets the price. Of course, government intervention may alter the supply and/or demand curves which will result in a less than optimal market performance.



Nats121 said:


> Thus, the 97% turnover rate.


Some posts indicate 97% of the drivers fail. I look at it as 97% did the math. I'm a member of the 97%. I have lots of free time. I have a 5 year old economy car. The profit for me would be so small in my market that playing video games is more appealing (at this time). I quit when the rates were 3x the current rates. I don't hate Uber, tho. I dislike the number of drivers that continue to drive at such low rates.



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> The problem is Uber setting the rates so low, not my ability to know what I'm doing.


Uber sets the rates low due to the surplus of drivers. Uber expects those that can do math will quit. If Uber perceives a shortage of drivers, rates will increase. By lowering the rates to drivers, Uber is not being evil. They are simply responding to market conditions, as they perceive them. Forcing Uber to pay above market rates will decrease total employment and increase the fare to the pax. An increase to the fare to the pax will further decrease the demand for drivers. Its a spiral that Uber, drivers, and pax should not want.

A market driven equilibrium point maximizes profit for all involved. In the long run, it is better for 100,000 drivers to earn $5.00 per hour than 25,000 drivers to earn $19.99 per hour. Throw in taxes, welfare, and other regulations and things may change. But not for the better.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

bsliv said:


> A "union" of independent contractors or business owners is illegal. Price fixing is frowned upon at the federal, state, and local levels.


Let's see the govt try to make a laughable price-fixing case that drivers who work under the complete dictatorial rule of these companies are engaged in price-fixing by trying form some sort of association.



bsliv said:


> The lack of regulation leads to the market determining the correct fare/fee.


We're gonna get into the same arguments all over again about lobbying, rent-seeking, regulations, and how Uber, in spite of writing its own laws is powerless, etc, etc.



bsliv said:


> Correct. Need to attract drivers? Offer a high rate. Have too many drivers? Offer a low rate.


Most new signups don't know what the rates are and I doubt more than 50% of current drivers know them either.



bsliv said:


> McD's and other employers obviously didn't need more employees other than those who were attracted by the prevailing wage.


If you read my post in context you'll see that my comment was a rebuttal of his argument that Uber was always a minimum wage job, which if true, Uber would have offered vastly lower pay rates than they did in 2013-14.

I'll go even further by saying that Uber has NEVER been a minimum wage job in the minds of the people who signed up. Very few people who sign up to drive expect to make only minimum wage. They hope and believe they'll make much more than that. The vast majority learn the hard way that the 1970s taxi rates they're paid makes earning a decent wage very difficult, which causes 97% of them to quit every year.



bsliv said:


> A neutral economist would call it a company responding to supply and demand. An inflammatory writer may call it a bait and switch scam.


A business model that recruits people to work for them by offering good pay rates, advertises inflated yearly earnings based on those pay rates (they were fined by the govt for false advertising), goes even further by promoting the purchase of fleets (Travis called investing in fleets "a profitable and sustainable business") and then pulls the rug out from under them with massive rate cuts qualifies as bait and switch in my book. And the financial ruin that Travis caused many fleet owners was reprehensible.



bsliv said:


> Some posts indicate 97% of the drivers fail. I look at it as 97% did the math.


You know that's pure BS. Their "math" was learning the hard way that no matter how hard they worked they couldn't make a decent wage because the rates were far too low. The "math" for the full timers was the realization that despite working 60-90 hours per week and seldom seeing their families they still needed public assistance due to the terrible pay rates.



bsliv said:


> I'm not sure of the source of drivers.


I factually stated the main source. If you don't believe it do a little homework and find out.



bsliv said:


> Uber doesn't lower the fares to the driver because they're evil, malicious, or the devil.


When you cut the pay of people who depend on the job to support their families you're messing with their lives. Lying to the workers and telling them that cutting their pay will result in higher income is evil. All this market conditions talk is a lame justification by Uber apologists for ruthlessly taking more and more money out of the pockets of drivers who are already making terrible pay rates.

That's not how the employment world works in this country. Most workers aren't paid the absolute rock bottom wage a company can possibly get away with. The market is the main influence on wages but most companies don't use 100% of their wage leverage against their workers for various reasons. For some it's about morality, for others it's a business decision, and for many others it's a combination of both. Loyalty plays a role in many cases. Most workers get raises even though many of those workers would stay on the job without it.



bsliv said:


> Uber lowers the fares to the drivers because they can.


A few years ago one of Uber's hubris-filled, arrogant execs was asked why rates were being cut once again and he said "because we can". An Uber spokesman rushed to refute that comment by saying the comment "goes against our values", which was a big fat LIE. The arrogant exec spoke the TRUTH.

There's a famous quote about ethics you may be familiar with... "just because you can doesn't mean you should". That quote is 180 degrees opposite Uber's business philosophy.

If the gig economy business model of low wages, perpetual pay cuts, and zero job security ever replaces our current system you can say goodbye to our middle class and hello to Third World status.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Uber is not in business to please drivers. Uber is in business to make the most money for Uber. If I were a major investor in Uber, you'd better believe I would tell them to do whatever is necessary to create more profit.

Drivers are not in business to please Uber. Drivers are in business to make the most money for themselves. If I were still a driver, you'd better believe I would do everything possible to create more profits for me.

Capitalism is an economic system in which private individuals or businesses own capital goods. The production of goods and services is based on supply and demand in the general market—known as a market economy—rather than through central planning—known as a planned economy or command economy. A command economy will lead to 3rd world status. History proves it. Capitalism works. History proves it. Rockefeller, Ford, Walton, Gates and Bezos didn't get extremely rich by forcing people to buy their products or services. They got rich by providing mutually beneficial transactions. If they weren't mutually beneficial, one party would not participate. 

Just because one can drive at low rates doesn't mean one should drive at low rates.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

So driving experience of your area is not a skill set ? LMAO


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> So driving experience of your area is not a skill set ? LMAO


Whats even funnier is that you think it does require special skills

Rideshare is a Minimum wage skill

Just be happy that you can as a IC make more than Minunum wage if you drive smarter are more


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

bsliv said:


> Uber is not in business to please drivers. Uber is in business to make the most money for Uber. If I were a major investor in Uber, you'd better believe I would tell them to do whatever is necessary to create more profit.
> 
> Drivers are not in business to please Uber. Drivers are in business to make the most money for themselves. If I were still a driver, you'd better believe I would do everything possible to create more profits for me.
> 
> ...


The funny thing?

Cab companies have been in the business of making money for over 100 years (yes a century) and the drivers? They have been able to make money for... the overwhelming majority of the that century.

People say Uber is the more technologically advanced company...

They really arn't....

The taxi companies arnt dinosaurs, they are crocodiles, big ugly slow and stupid....

Uber? Well Uber feels more like a radiation mutant than anything... bloated, disfigured and most importantly sick. Maybe one of those 7 legged mutant frogs...

No matter how hard you frogs try you can't be anything other than a disfigures frog...

And before covid we had a plague or these mutant way too many legged frogs in our pond.

Us big ugly crocodiles are floating around living on scraps, eating All that nasty grossness that you Ubers won't touch, but food is food. They eat all kinds of crap that the little Uber frogs can't stomach. (Like medical accounts that lyft got kicked off here in Orlando)

The funny thing is that us crocodiles won't seem to die but everyone calls us dinosaurs, slow stupid survivors....

You frogs are starving to death and from one rate cut after another... one new "policy" or mutation that makes it even harder to make this work. So many more predators taking your dinner out or your mouth by lying and saying you never picked them up or some other such BS.

And to make matters worse the asshole fox above the pond is only letting every other bite of food make it into the pond while they invent new ways to mutate you poor poor frogs into a harder to live mutants.

20% commission 
Safe rider fee
25% commission

Rates slashed by 25%
Rates slashed by 25% again.
Rates slashed 25% yet again.

We charge thre customer whatever the hell we want and pay you base rates...

We cut your pay in half and you get paid for all miles driven (but not)

Accept a pay cut for "first crack at the fares"

Pay a flat rate and gamble on paying us less than that in comsssion, but if you turn down fares you lose it.

What Uber is doing? They make the most corrupt taxi dispatchers look like Girl Scouts...

Take their horrible rental deals on top of that and sweet Jesus...

Quite frankly it's long since hit the point that I have an easier time hunting for scraps in my crocodile than trying to manaeuver a 7 legged mutant frog with half a face... surrounded by other frogs.

That's how it feels...


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> So driving experience of your area is not a skill set ? LMAO


nope. That is experience and knowledge. Not a skill set you would put on a resume, aye? LMAO is this AOL? sheesh.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

Riding and Racing Motocross is a transferable skill set. Doubtful anyone here would know that.


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

bsliv said:


> Capitalism is an economic system in which private individuals or businesses own capital goods. The production of goods and services is based on supply and demand in the general market-known as a market economy-rather than through central planning-


So Capitalism sets some ground rules like minimum wage. This way all restaurants compete on a fair level, following minimum wage and food licensing rules, right!

Same with Transportation, there is a set rate called a meter rate. Maybe there should not be a meter rate for all. But to force a meter rate on me as a private transportation provider and to not regulate my competitor Uber is NOT CAPITALISM.
It is bribes and corruption between regulators and corporations.

The supply demand has nothing to do with Taxi being forced a meter rate and regulation, while the competing provider ( Uber) makes deals with the regulators and states.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> right!


Wrong. Minimum wage is more of a socialist law than a capitalist law. Among other things, it increases unemployment for low wager earners and increases inflation for all. Inflation hurts those with a fixed income, who are also typically earning poverty level. Minimum wage laws hurt those the most that its supposed to help. Its a classic example of a "feel good" law.

In a free market (capitalist economy), everyone is free to negotiate their own wage. If that wage turns out to be $1/per hour, so be it.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> force a meter rate on me as a private transportation provider and to not regulate my competitor Uber is NOT CAPITALISM


Capitalism would be every independent contractor setting their own rate and being able to advertise this rate to attract customers. One is free to accept Uber's offer or not accept their offer. If Uber only offers a fixed rate, the contractor is free to accept it or decline it. That is capitalism at work. It is similar to someone offering me $5 for my bushel of apples. I can accept it or decline it. That is the free market (capitalism) at work. Monopolies or regulation is the only thing that can hamper or kill a free market in a capitalist system. A single company in a free market with sufficient competition cannot kill a free market. It requires government to hamper/stifle/kill a free market.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> The supply demand has nothing to do with Taxi being forced a meter rate and regulation, while the competing provider ( Uber) makes deals with the regulators and states.


Correct. Being "forced" a meter rate is not a "free" market. Force and freedom are opposites when it comes to markets. The principle of supply and demand works in a free market. It does not work in a forced or command market (central planning). Uber does not force a meter rate. One is free to create their own rates. If a driver has free time, they may accept Uber's pitiful rate. If a driver is busy, they will laugh at Uber's rate. In the Las Vegas market, government regulation prohibits street hails, staging at certain locations, or advertising for rides unless they have proper licencing. Uber doesn't prevent this free market activity, government prevents it.

Government, not Uber, stops a free market in the transportation for hire market.


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

There are plenty jobs that offer fair pay, but a skill set is required. Sitting on your ass using an Uber app is not a skill.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

Ya but when you dump it all down it just might be. :roflmao:


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

bsliv said:


> Wrong. Minimum wage is more of a socialist law than a capitalist law. Among other things, it increases unemployment for
> 
> Government, not Uber, stops a free market in the transportation for hire market.


Your talking more ideology than real life.

I dare you to come up with the name of a civilized nation that does not have minimum wage and labor laws.

Having a set of rules does not mean Socialism or Communism.

I can manufacture EV cars for under 10,000$ a unit from China, but I can't sell it in North America or the EU due to car safety regulation.

These regulations don't exist in Africa, South America, and Asia. That does not mean therefore these continents are more Capitalist. It just means there is no rules of safety for car manufacturing. Cars blow up in the streets, have no airbag, no ABS brakes and don't have collision protection foundations.

The countries that have no regulation for car manufacturing or import also allow you to operate restaurants without food safety regulation. You can sell half cooked bats from China.

Does that mean since they have no regulation, they are more Capitalist than other nations!

Rules and regulations are set to protect the society and create a fair playing ground.

If the government Controls the means of production, then it can be practicing communism or dictatorship.

If it's mostly in private hands but the people above middle class have to give away 80/90% of their profit to be transferred to the ones in poverty. Making nobody a beggar and nobody an elite. Then it is Practicing Socialism.

If private sector controls most of production, with rules and regulations, labor laws, anti trust and anti competition laws. Permits and licenses for industries and safety. Wealth can be privately accumulated without a limit, taxes are less for the rich than the working class. Then that system is practicing CAPITALISM.

Uber and regulators behind closed doors making deals is called Crony Capitalism.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> I dare you to come up with the name of a civilized nation that does not have minimum wage and labor laws.


Sweden (22), Denmark (8), Iceland (13), Norway (28), Switzerland (5) are a few. In fact, about 10% of all countries do not have minimum wage laws. The number in the parenthesis is the country's ranking in the index of economic freedom. The USA is 17th.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> Having a set of rules does not mean Socialism or Communism.


Correct. Having a law against murder has no relevance to an economic system.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> That does not mean therefore these continents are more Capitalist.


That is exactly what it means. If one country can produce an item but another country cannot produce that item due to government regulations means the producing country has a freer market. The country that cannot produce the item has a centrally controlled market.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> Does that mean since they have no regulation, they are more Capitalist than other nations!


It means they have more economic freedom. Freedom and capitalism are not black and white. There are plenty of shades of gray. I would choose freedom over force any time.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> create a fair playing ground


Huh? There are plenty of laws to prevent competition. Watch the video you posted. Most laws are imposed in good faith but the principle of unintended consequences often rears its head. For instance, prohibiting the sale of automobiles with internal combustion engines sounds good (and will get the politician votes) but it will increase the cost of automobiles, increase unemployment, and still create pollution. The electricity must be generated. The batteries must be disposed. There is no free lunch.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> 80/90% of their profit to be transferred to the ones in poverty. Making nobody a beggar and nobody an elite. Then it is Practicing Socialism.


That is a welfare state. A welfare state can be capitalist. The USA is on the slippery slope of a welfare state. Taken to its extreme, every one will earn what they deserve and every one will get what they need. Figure out what one deserves or needs. Lenin tried.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> anti competition laws


Anti competition laws are not a sign of capitalism. They are a sign of corruption. The same can be said of requiring permits and licensing to enter an industry. Want to be a barber in Nevada? One must have 1500 hours in an accredited barber school and pass a test before a barber's license is issued. Who proposed the high standards? Existing barbers who didn't want competition. Who passed the laws? Corrupt politicians who wanted votes from barbers. Again, watch the video you posted.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> Wealth can be privately accumulated without a limit, taxes are less for the rich than the working class. Then that system is practicing CAPITALISM.


In the USA, the bottom half of income earners do not pay federal income tax. Taxes less for the rich is practicing capitalism? You're way off base there.

Crony capitalism depends on corrupt politicians. Politicians may the rules (laws/regulations). Businesses use the rules to maximize profits. Businesses attempt to influence the lawmakers but they can't make the rules. If I'm a baseball manager and I convince the umpires that my team deserves to get 4 strikes and the other team only deserves 3 strikes, I am a good manager but the umpires are bad. Don't blame the businesses trying to influence politicians, blame the bad politicians.


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

bsliv said:


> Sweden (22), Denmark (8), Iceland (13), Norway (28), Switzerland (5) are a few. In fact, about 10% of all countries do not have minimum wage laws. The number in the parenthesis is the country's ranking in the index of economic freedom. The USA is 17th.


Very, very, confusing.
No in those countries they have minimum pay it is just not called minimum wage, it is called industry rate through Unions.
So Uber can not just go to those countries and bust their Transportation industry. They might not called it a minimum wage, they call it industry rate, or meter rate.

*KEY TAKEAWAYS*

Most developed countries with no legal minimum wage still have wage minimums set by industry through collective bargaining contracts.
Some such countries with no legal minimum wages but extremely robust union memberships are Sweden, Iceland, Norway, Denmark, and Switzerland.
However, the truth is most developed countries with no legal minimum wage still have minimum wages set by industry through collective bargaining contracts. The majority of their working populations are unionized. These unions negotiate a fair baseline pay rate on behalf of the participating workers so the government does not have to do it.




bsliv said:


> It means they have more economic freedom. Freedom and capitalism are not black and white. There are plenty of shades of gray. I would choose freedom over force any time.


Selling unsafe cars from China to Africa and Latin America shows economic freedom?
So EU and North America are less free than 3rd world countries because there is safety regulations I need to pass to sell Chinese cars!

That is plain stupid. Venezuela bringing in very unsafe, Chinese cars, does not make Venezuela more of a free market than North America and Europe.

Actually the more advanced countries mostly I'm talking North America and the EU have many regulations that the 3rd world countries don't have.

By your claim the 3rd world is more free. NOT TRUE. It is mostly puppet governments and places without any law and order, or dictatorships.



bsliv said:


> Taxes less for the rich is practicing capitalism? You're way off base there.


Yes, taxing Wealth income less than a workers income happens under the systems that Capitalism, not communism or socialism.

Sure it is also in just dictatorship, or hybrid systems.

Why do people advocating on taxing the elite to cover social programs get called Socialist? In America the idea is called Social Democracy.

When a hard left Social Democrat comes out and says we will tax every one over 10 million higher taxes than the rest of society. What do we call them?

We call them Socialist, even Marxist.


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

bsliv said:


> Crony capitalism depends on corrupt politicians. Politicians may the rules (laws/regulations).


Correct. Without Corrupt politicians and Lobbying by big business we would have much less Crony Capitalism.

Putting ideology aside.

The issue in Transportation ( private rides) in America is Crony Capitalism. To make the playing field fair either Taxi needs to be deregulated like Uber. Or Uber should be held to the same regulation as others.

Some Taxi guys are fighting for less regulation so they can play by the same rules Uber plays. Others are trying to get more regulation to be put on Uber. Either way, how it is done does not matter. As long as the playing field becomes equal.

In my town there is a 2% franchise fee for a Taxi license. As long as I have to pay that and Uber does not. It's not fair. I don't care about ideology.

Either don't regulate me more than Uber, or regulate Uber more. Until the game is fair I say it's CRONY CAPITALISM.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> Very, very, confusing.


What are you confused about? You asked for developed countries without a minimum wage. I gave five examples. Not confusing to me.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> it is called industry rate through Unions.


So my point is made. The government does not need to impose a minimum wage. Wage earners can negotiate individually or collectively to set a wage for the individual or industry. Can I pay someone from one of those countries $1 per hour to count blades of grass? Yes. Can I force that wage on them? No.

My 1st job paid me $0.50 per hour. At the time, I was glad to have it. Looking back on it, I'm glad I had it. It taught me responsibility and how a retail hardware store operates. The store owner would not have hired me or anyone else if he had to pay more. He would have swept the floors himself. If he was forced to pay minimum wage, I would not have had the job and the owner would have to get up earlier to sweep the floors. What would have been the effect of a minimum wage in that situation? That situation was not unique. That situation has a similar effect today. If someone is willing to pay $x and someone is willing to accept $x, there should not be a third party that says no.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> Selling unsafe cars from China to Africa and Latin America shows economic freedom?


The ability to do something vs. something being banned demonstrates superior freedom.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> So EU and North America are less free than 3rd world countries because there is safety regulations I need to pass to sell Chinese cars!


Freedom does not mean safety. Safety does not mean freedom. Ban all automobiles would be safety but less freedom. Allowing the import of $100 helicopters demonstrates freedom but sacrifices safety.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> That is plain stupid. Venezuela bringing in very unsafe, Chinese cars, does not make Venezuela more of a free market than North America and Europe.


Importing cars from China is a very small part of economic freedom. As a matter of fact, Venezuela is ranked 179 out of 180 countries in economic freedom. Only North Korea is lower.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> Actually the more advanced countries mostly I'm talking North America and the EU have many regulations that the 3rd world countries don't have.


And those regulations stifle free markets. They may benefit their societies with increased safety at the cost of freedom. It is a trade off. Again, there is no free lunch. Why does a barber need 1500 hours of education?



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> By your claim the 3rd world is more free. NOT TRUE. It is mostly puppet governments and places without any law and order, or dictatorships.


They are freer economically. They may lack personal and political freedom. But we are discussing economics. The 3 different types of freedoms can and are indexed separately.



I will crack Lyft hacks said:


> Taxi needs to be deregulated


Correct. Taxis and Uber should compete. Competition is good for the consumer. Competition spurs innovation. Competition allows the strong to survive and the weak to perish. Competition is good. In my market, without rideshare, I couldn't get a taxi because I live 15 miles from the Las Vegas strip. Taxis cater to tourists here. Taxis were also very expensive compared to rideshare. Because of their expense governments had to offer public transportation paid for by the tax payers.

Eliminate public transportation, eliminate taxi and rideshare regulations and see cheap prices, new technologies, and reduced prices. Increased regulation would lead to higher prices to the riders, more taxes due to public transpiration, increased unemployment and reduced innovation. The choice seems clear to me.

Rideshare didn't create crony capitalism. Rideshare took advantage of crony capitalism. Allow my baseball team 4 strikes and I'll take advantage of it. Blame the umpires (regulators).

Economics 101 teaches that higher taxes means a less efficient market. More efficient markets means more profit for businesses and lower prices for consumers. Higher regulations requires higher taxes to enforce the regulations. Why can't rideshare drivers stage at hotel/casinos? Why can't rideshare drivers accept street hails? Why can't taxi companies change their prices to match the prevailing market price?

So, do we want less profit for businesses, less innovation, and higher prices for consumers or more profit for businesses (and their investors), more innovation and lower prices to consumers? I'll choose the latter.

I live 15 miles from the Las Vegas strip. I don't want to walk to a bus stop and wait for a slow moving bus that has many stops on the way to my destination. I want to ride in a car with no additional stops. I don't care if its a taxi or a rideshare car. I want the best possible price. End unnecessary regulations and I'll be happy and richer.


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## ANT 7 (Oct 14, 2018)

1,600 signatures, wow, how many RS driver's are there again :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:


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