# Contractor vs Sub Contractor



## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

https://www.business.gov.au/people/contractors

*Contractors*

Last Updated: 18 July 2018

A contractor describes a person or business that enters into a contract with another person or business for work, usually at a fixed price.

Contractors are not employees of a business as they are not legally bound under an employment contract. It is therefore important to ensure you have a clear agreement in place both as an employer and as a form of contractor. The terms contractor, independent contractor and subcontractor get thrown around a lot, but have you ever wondered what each of these terms really mean?

*Independent contractors *
Independent contractors run their own business and are hired to do a set task or tasks based on certain terms within a contract. Independent contractors generally use their own processes, tools and methods to complete the work. They can delegate or subcontract some of the tasks if they need, and can work for a number of different clients at the same time.

*Subcontractors *
A subcontractor is an independent contractor that's hired by another independent contractor to help them complete their contracted work.

For example:

Mary is looking to build a house. Mary contracts Jon to build the house for her. Jon is a general contractor. However, Jon doesn't do all of the work himself, he contracts Barry to help with laying the foundation of the house. As Barry is contracted by Jon, and not Mary, Barry is a subcontractor under Jon.

*Rights and responsibilities *
Whether you're a general contractor or a subcontractor, your rights and responsibilities as an independent contractor remain the same. However, if you are hiring a subcontractor, you will need to fulfill any obligations you may have as a hirer (usually included within the terms of the contract).

*Contracts*
When you agree to do a job for another person or business in exchange for money or another benefit, you are probably entering into a commercial contract. If so, this contract is legally enforceable regardless of whether it was just a handshake deal or a written agreement.
______________________________________________________________

Being in my 60s and having been an employee for most of my working life, I've also done a few years as a sub contractor since retirement at the end of 2012.

Pertaining to ride share, Uber & Lyft. Both of these companies are contractors. Their business model mainly consists of receiving ride requests from a client ( rider) and passing that request on to one of their sub contractors (driver). Ideally the sub contractor accepts the request and proceeds to give the client a safe and efficient ride from point A to point B.

After reading many posts here over the last few weeks I've seen a lot of drivers that "game" the system or cherry pick their requests. Some even accept with the sole intention of canceling to receive the cancellation rate. I could go on here but I believe you get my drift.

This type of behavior on the part of some sub contractors creates harm and ill will toward not only the contractor but also the sub contractors that abide by the contractor's terms of service that all sub contractors agree to at the start.

In a nutshell: Follow the terms of service or get out and find something more to your liking.

Flame away all you like. I'm a grown man and can take it. But I'm also old school and believe that by accepting to perform a service I will do so to the best of my ability.


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## MadTownUberD (Mar 11, 2017)

BCS DRIVER said:


> https://www.business.gov.au/people/contractors
> 
> *Contractors*
> 
> ...


How long have you been driving Rideshare / how many trips have you completed?


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Not that I feel it's relevant to my post but 1,915 trips, started in June of 2017.


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

BCS DRIVER said:


> After reading many posts here over the last few weeks I've seen a lot of drivers that "game" the system or cherry pick their requests. Some even accept with the sole intention of canceling to receive the cancellation rate. I could go on here but I believe you get my drift.


You've exposed our plot. 
.
.
Not giving a shit in 3...2...1...


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## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

BCS DRIVER said:


> This type of behavior on the part of some sub contractors creates harm and ill will toward not only the contractor but also the sub contractors that abide by the contractor's terms of service that all sub contractors agree to at the start.


Name a sub contractor that would undertake a task for a loss.

Example: If a driver (Sub contractor like you defined it) has to drive 20+ minutes to pick up a fare only to take them a few feet, that wasn't a profitable work. You made it sound like these sub contractors are working for charity.

I disagree with Uber and Lyft being contractors. They are employers in disguise that purely manipulated the system and called their drivers "Independent contractors" for the sole purpose of cutting the cost of an actual employer and employee relationship. Period.

In your example, if I go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac, the McDonald's corporation would be the contractor and the person behind the counter would be the sub contractor. Sounds asinine, doesn't it?

So, unless you're the type of driver that would blindly go wherever you're sent to under the assumption of being a "Sub contractor", best of luck to you. Some of us actually try to perform the "Contracted" work smarter and make it more profitable than the typical corporate shill.

P.S. I did follow your link....not sure what the Australian business rules have to do with the United States.... work on your Googling game next time.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Pax Collector said:


> P.S. I did follow your link....not sure what the Australian business rules have to do with the United States.... work on your Googling game next time.


Thank you for pointing that out. I did indeed miss the Australian part.

https://contract-law.laws.com/agreement/subcontractor-agreement-vs-contractor-agreement



Pax Collector said:


> I disagree with Uber and Lyft being contractors.


I agree to disagree.



Pax Collector said:


> In your example, if I go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac, the McDonald's corporation would be the contractor and the person behind the counter would be the sub contractor. Sounds asinine, doesn't it?


Yes that scenario does sound asinine. Since McD's hires actual employees it does not pertain to them being contractors.



Pax Collector said:


> So, unless you're the type of driver that would blindly go wherever you're sent to under the assumption of being a "Sub contractor", best of luck to you. Some of us actually try to perform the "Contracted" work smarter and make it more profitable than the typical corporate shill.


As a sub to the contractor you do agree to either accept or not accept the job assigned. In this case you have agreed to accept rides given by the contractor and to complete those rides safely and efficiently. Period. If subs that have agreed to the TOS of the contractor decides to only accept and complete ones they deem profitable to themselves then they will find themselves being scratched off the list of subs for that particular contractor. What contractor would continue to sub to anyone whose work is sub par and violates the TOS?

I do speak from experience from being a sub to other companies.


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## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

BCS DRIVER said:


> As a sub to the contractor you do agree to either accept or not accept the job assigned.


Not knowing the destination before accepting a trip effectively nullifies that contractor relationship as a sub contractor would know what the job and expected pay out are before accepting the work.

It's simple actually. If you have a sub contractor working under you like you said, that sub contractor is entitled to at least know where they're going. You get a ping and you go to pick up a fare. Do you know where the destination is? No. Do you know how much you'd be making? No. Do you know if you're making a profit or a loss? No. I've yet to see such type of a contractor and sub contractor relationship.


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## HotUberMess (Feb 25, 2018)

BCS DRIVER said:


> https://www.business.gov.au/people/contractors
> 
> *Contractors*
> 
> ...


Why do you care what other drivers do? Why do you think you have any say how they run their independent contractor "business"? Why should other drivers listen to you when they have their own reasoning and motivation for what they do?

I agree with you this behavior is bad for *Uber's* business. But that's Uber's problem that Uber created by setting this up as a contract business.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Pax Collector said:


> You get a ping and you go to pick up a fare. Do you know where the destination is? No. Do you know how much you'd be making? No.


Yes you do know how much you'll be making. At least the minimum fare.


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## HotUberMess (Feb 25, 2018)

BCS DRIVER said:


> Yes you do know how much you'll be making. At least the minimum fare.


The correct answer for this is "you'll be making your listed per mile and per minute rate".


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

HotUberMess said:


> Why do you care what other drivers do?


I care because of the trickle down effect. What other drivers do (poorly) affects customers (riders) attitudes toward drivers. Since I'm one of those drivers that may suffer from that bad attitude from riders.



HotUberMess said:


> But that's Uber's problem that Uber created by setting this up as a contract business.


Indeed it is Uber's problem but has nothing to do with the contractor aspect of it. If we were Uber's employees the cause/effect would be the same other than deactivation versus firing.



HotUberMess said:


> Why do you think you have any say how they run their independent contractor "business"?


Drivers are not independent contractors. They are subs to a contractor.



HotUberMess said:


> The correct answer for this is "you'll be making your listed per mile and per minute rate".


Can I assume if destinations were given upfront and they did not meet your individual expectations you would then cancel?


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## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

BCS DRIVER said:


> Yes you do know how much you'll be making. At least the minimum fare.


So, why hasn't Uber classified us as sub contractors? Are they lying to us or are you mistaken?


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## HotUberMess (Feb 25, 2018)

BCS DRIVER said:


> Drivers are not independent contractors. They are subs to a contractor.


A subcontractor IS an independent contractor. What in the world are you talking about "not an IC"?



BCS DRIVER said:


> Can I assume if destinations were given upfront and they did not meet your individual expectations you would then cancel?


Maybe. But why do you care? That's the nature of IC work.

My day job is IC work as well. An agent calls me, asks if I want to take a job, I decide. Sometimes I hire subcontractors (who get to choose for themselves as well because they are ALSO independent contractors).


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Pax Collector said:


> So, why hasn't Uber classified us as sub contractors? Are they lying to us or are you mistaken?


The "are they lying" is a question for Uber. My thought is they haven't given it much thought. No big surprise there.

In the contracting scheme of things there are generally 3 classifications:
1. Client
2. Contractor
3. Sub contractor

Client: Joe Blow wants a house built. He contacts various companies and requests bids. He chooses ABC Home Builders.

Contractor/ABC Home Builder: Most, if any, home builders don't have the manpower and skills to turn key the entire process of building that home.

Sub contractor(s): ABC Home Builder sub contracts various trades to do what they don't have the manpower/skills to do.

Now substitute Rider for Client. Then Uber for Contractor/ABC Home Builder. Finally substitute Driver for Sub Contractor.

That's putting it as simple as I can. Where do you feel drivers fit into all this if not as sub contractors?


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

BCS DRIVER said:


> https://www.business.gov.au/people/contractors
> 
> *Contractors*
> 
> ...


We don't actually agree to anything except IF we take the trip we get paid by miles and minutes. Nowhere does it say we have to take any specific trip. That's why we have the option to cancel at any time without a specific reason "do not charge rider."

There is not any other contracted job that I know of where you have to take a job once you show up to see what it is.

If I call a plumber and after looking at my issue for free (unusual that he would, but assuming he gives free estimates) and I offer him $20 to fix it, he is under no obligation to do that if he doesn't think it's worth it.

If he starts the job and finds there are more issues than he could see until he started (hidden in the wall for instance) he will have taken the job with the caveat the $20 is for what he could originally see. He can always demand more for unexpected work. Again, no one has to agree. Like a pax, the customer can bow out too. He may also decide he would like the job another time, but right now it's not one he can do since he only had time RIGHT NOW for a small job, which for some reason, 95% of the jobs are.

"Accept" on the screen means nothing more than I'll accept to see whether I want this job. Nothing more.

"Start trip" means I thought it would be worth it, but realize it's not OR I find I can't. For instance, I don't have time to finish the job (or the plumbing).

Luckily, unlike the plumber, another worker who likely WILL take the job is just an app click away.

That's my take.



BCS DRIVER said:


> The "are they lying" is a question for Uber. My thought is they haven't given it much thought. No big surprise there.
> 
> In the contracting scheme of things there are generally 3 classifications:
> 1. Client
> ...


So they "haven't given it much thought"? All those thousands of lawyers and you don't think there's some reason?



Pax Collector said:


> Name a sub contractor that would undertake a task for a loss.
> 
> Example: If a driver (Sub contractor like you defined it) has to drive 20+ minutes to pick up a fare only to take them a few feet, that wasn't a profitable work. You made it sound like these sub contractors are working for charity.
> 
> ...


Well he didn't post in an Australian forum, he posted in complaints.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

HotUberMess said:


> Maybe. But why do you care? That's the nature of IC work.
> 
> My day job is IC work as well. An agent calls me, asks if I want to take a job, I decide. Sometimes I hire subcontractors (who get to choose for themselves as well because they are ALSO independent contractors).


Why do I care? As I explained before the driver that accepts and then cancels because it doesn't fit their expectation of earnings causes the rider to have a negative experience of ride share which eventually results in a general negative outlook from riders concerning the business. Which in turn affects my business.

In your day job you may well be justified in calling yourself a contractor. BTW we are all independent. But in signing up for Uber and agreeing to their TOS and then to accept and cancel a job because it's too short or drive to the pickup and cancel just to receive the cancellation fee is a crappy way to do business. It's gaming the system. And it reflects in rider's attitude towards us drivers.


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## HotUberMess (Feb 25, 2018)

You can’t do anything about it, you’re just pissing in the wind.

Also, there’s no “subcontractor” designation on tax forms. It’s a word that describes your relationship to the client, meaning you’re a contractor who doesn’t have a direct contract with the rider, but instead with a contractor in between. The IRS considers us either contractors or employees.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> There is not any other contracted job that I know of where you have to take a job once you show up to see what it is.


Ahhh but you do know what it will be at a minimum. And if that accepted ride does turn out to be a minimum fare and you cancel? It doesn't speak well for your business ethics. If all drivers did this ride share would go away.



HotUberMess said:


> You can't do anything about it, you're just pissing in the wind.


That's something I can agree on.


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## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

BCS DRIVER said:


> Ahhh but you do know what it will be at a minimum. And if that accepted ride does turn out to be a minimum fare and you cancel? It doesn't speak well for your business ethics. If all drivers did this ride share would go away.


Bottom line is Uber is a failing business and I'll pick my rides carefully to make the most of it in the meantime. One perk of being a so called "Contractor" is I can choose the specific task I perform.

I WILL NOT drive 20 minutes to pick you up.

I WILL NOT take a Pool ride.

I WILL NOT take a long trip with no cash up front to pay for my return dead miles.

I WILL NOT pick up your underage kid.

I WILL NOT pick you up outside a grocery store and load your cart full of produce into my trunk.

I WILL cancel the trip, I WILL decline the trip, or I WILL politely ask you to exit my vehicle if any of the above circumstances are present.

Let Uber worry about their image and customer satisfaction. I'm in it for the money, not to please anyone.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Pax Collector said:


> Bottom line is Uber is a failing business and I'll pick my rides carefully to make the most of it in the meantime.


Many thanks for helping kill it off quicker.


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## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

BCS DRIVER said:


> Many thanks for helping kill it off quicker.


Lol where do I even begin on that? They're the ones destroying themselves. If it weren't for suckered venture capitalists that keep pumping cash into them, they would've been history long long ago.


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## Bro Olomide (Sep 1, 2017)

Pax Collector said:


> Bottom line is Uber is a failing business and I'll pick my rides carefully to make the most of it in the meantime. One perk of being a so called "Contractor" is I can choose the specific task I perform.
> 
> I WILL NOT drive 20 minutes to pick you up.
> 
> ...


I call ahead of time to determine if any of the above circumstances present and cancel upon finding out without wasting my gas money driving towards the rider.

In addition to asking about destination, I request a screen shot of the rider app showing what they paid for the ride. (Especially important given the new insulting 2 to 3 dollar fixed surges that Uber has rolled out in some cities while charging riders 3-4x.)

Rides determined to be heavily in Uber's favor are promptly cancelled. Been doing this since the summer.

The more drivers doing this, the less potent the threat of deactivation becomes, since they don't have a fleet and they can't replace that many drivers suddenly.

This is a much more effective way of taking a stand than a handfull of drivers going to a corner clanging pots and pans chanting Uber strike using a bullhorn while hoping to get the media's attention.

It's time we pushed back legally by unappologetically flexing our property rights.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Have you ever had a rider you cancelled on after calling them file a complaint? I know if I was the one on the other end of your phone call/text and was cancelled on I'd be filing a complaint.

What about this from your dashboard: Using the app>Receiving trip requests> What is destination discrimination? 
*What is destination discrimination?*
We're committed to maintaining a quality experience for all who use Uber. Therefore, discriminating against riders based on their destination is prohibited by our Community Guidelines and is also prohibited by many city and state regulations.

Repeated instances of cancelling trips due to rider's destination can lead to permanent deactivation of an Uber partner's account.


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

IRS form ss-8
Please read and increase your knowledge of business law


For the good of the community


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## Lessthanminimum (Nov 5, 2017)

BCS DRIVER said:


> https://www.business.gov.au/people/contractors
> 
> *Contractors*
> 
> ...


You want to drive for $4 to $6 an hour I encourage you to do so. If Uber never runs out of compliant ants they will continue to pay such wage. They will shovel all that short crap right at you knowing you'll take it all.

I'll continue to cherry-pick so that I can make $12 to $15 an hour while using my own car. And by the way, Uber appreciates your loyalty. The first time you are in an accident, or reported on a false complaint, Uber will stick your loyalty where the sun don't shine.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Juggalo9er said:


> IRS form ss-8
> Please read and increase your knowledge of business law
> 
> For the good of the community


Interesting document and thanks for referring it. Was your purpose in doing so to argue we are employees? If not then what?


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

BCS DRIVER said:


> Ahhh but you do know what it will be at a minimum. And if that accepted ride does turn out to be a minimum fare and you cancel? It doesn't speak well for your business ethics. If all drivers did this ride share would go away.
> 
> That's something I can agree on.


I can't think of any other contracted job where the minimum is $2.29, either. How can you possibly compare $2.29 to any other contract job?

Besides, many trips don't work because of the timing. It's not just about short trips. I usually take those anyway since I'm ALREADY THERE. I'm in Houston. I once turned down a trip to the airport during rush hour. It would have taken me AT LEAST 2.5 hours to get him there and get home. I needed to be home in 2 hours. Are you saying I should quit driving 3 hours early just to avoid such situations? That goes a bit counter to Uber's "drive when you want, side hustle" rhetoric, no?


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

I don't cherry pick but assure you I make as much or more than you do by cherry picking.

If we all worried incessantly about accidents or false complaints then maybe we should all stay shut in at home.


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## Lessthanminimum (Nov 5, 2017)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> I can't think of any other contracted job where the minimum is $2.29, either. How can you possibly compare $2.29 to any other contract job?
> 
> Besides, many trips don't work because of the timing. It's not just about short trips. I usually take those anyway since I'm ALREADY THERE. I'm in Houston. I once turned down a trip to the airport during rush hour. It would have taken me AT LEAST 2.5 hours to get him there and get home. I needed to be home in 2 hours. Are you saying I should quit driving 3 hours early just to avoid such situations? That goes a bit counter to Uber's "drive when you want, side hustle" rhetoric, no?


Yeah that's what he's saying. In his world like Trumps loyalty only runs in one direction.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> How can you possibly compare $2.29 to any other contract job?


If that's the amount you're making per hour that's pitiful. 1 in a thousand workers might accept that. But it has no bearing on whether it's a contract job or not.



Fuzzyelvis said:


> Are you saying I should quit driving 3 hours early just to avoid such situations?


Of course I'm not saying pack up and go home. Just explain to the rider why you can't make the trip. Cancel and do not charge rider. This is the flexibility of doing this gig.


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## Nonya busy (May 18, 2017)

Pax Collector said:


> Name a sub contractor that would undertake a task for a loss.
> 
> Example: If a driver (Sub contractor like you defined it) has to drive 20+ minutes to pick up a fare only to take them a few feet, that wasn't a profitable work. You made it sound like these sub contractors are working for charity.
> 
> ...


Uber has already lost a class action suit because drivers are employees, how is this still up for debsde?


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Nonya busy said:


> Uber has already lost a class action suit


Please provide your source.


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## Bro Olomide (Sep 1, 2017)

BCS DRIVER said:


> Have you ever had a rider you cancelled on after calling them file a complaint? I know if I was the one on the other end of your phone call/text and was cancelled on I'd be filing a complaint.
> 
> What about this from your dashboard: Using the app>Receiving trip requests> What is destination discrimination?
> *What is destination discrimination?*
> ...


Yes. Several times. I've received notifications and boldly explained why I cancelled.

I don't bother replying and I still have access to the app. Just tonight I cancelled over 30 ride requests and I've a feeling that far more drivers than Uber can afford to deactivate without seriously ruining driver availability are passive aggressively screening accepted rides and cancelling low paying rides.

If UBER has an issue with it they can GO SELF DRIVE THEMSELVES.


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## Nonya busy (May 18, 2017)

Bro Olomide said:


> Yes. Several times. I've received notifications and boldly explained why I cancelled.
> 
> I don't bother replying and I still have access to the app. Just tonight I cancelled over 30 ride requests and I've a feeling that far more drivers than Uber can afford to deactivate without seriously ruining driver availability are passive aggressively screening accepted rides and cancelling low paying rides.
> 
> If UBER has an issue with it they can GO SELF DRIVE THEMSELVES.


I agree but don't be fooled. You will get deactivated for any reason any day.



BCS DRIVER said:


> Please provide your source.


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## CDP (Nov 11, 2018)

Who are you debating? I think it's funny you're kvetching. There is no recourse outside of a legal action. 

I'm starting a rideshare/car service next year. 'Portrides' will be the name. It will be a driver centric business, running lean. 

I also just stsrted a products business that will fund the car business. Soon drivers will be able to all profit from my model.

Ill be rich soon. Think outside the box. Everyone here is miserable and looking for a "break" in life. Soon I'll be able to effect that.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

For all intents and purposes, companies classify workers as independent contractors as a scam to evade paying the following....

Minimum wage, FICA, Unemployment Insurance, and Workmans Compensation.



BCS DRIVER said:


> If that's the amount you're making per hour that's pitiful. 1 in a thousand workers might accept that. But it has no bearing on whether it's a contract job or not.


He didn't say that's what he made per hour.

$2.29 is the minimum payout for drivers in Houston.

In other words, short rides in Houston pay the driver a pathetic $2.29 in the year 2018.

That means uber expects drivers to accept short supermarket rides that involve loading and unloading carts full of groceries and be paid a truly disgusting $2.29.


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## Nonya busy (May 18, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> For all intents and purposes, companies classify workers as independent contractors as a scam to evade paying the following....
> 
> Minimum wage, FICA, Unemployment Insurance, and Workmans Compensation.
> 
> ...


I started a thread that says I'm simply cancelling when i figure a ride is only $2, deactivation be dammed. It's below not worth it. They make us take them not for any financial benefits, but purely out of deactivation fear. That's beyond rediculous.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

CDP said:


> Who are you debating? I think it's funny you're kvetching. There is no recourse outside of a legal action.
> 
> I'm starting a rideshare/car service next year. 'Portrides' will be the name. It will be a driver centric business, running lean.
> 
> ...


kvetcher *: *a habitual complainer Where in any post I've done on this board did it seem I'm a complainer?

I'm not debating anyone. The intent of my thread was to show my take on the Uber/driver relationship as being a contractor/sub contractor relationship. And as such a contractor offers "jobs" to their sub(s) with the expectation that the sub will perform their job with a reasonable expectation of quality work. If said sub does not perform the job offered and accepted in a quality manner and in the process brings some level of harm or ill will to the contractor then that sub should be excluded from further job offers.

In my experience as a business owner who subs out some of the work, this is exactly the way I run it. My subs do the work as proscribed while not bringing any harm or ill will toward my company. Otherwise that sub will receive no more jobs from me.

Kudos to you for stepping up and starting the businesses you have or will in the near future. It's great to be able to to this in this country. I wish you the very best of luck with them being successful ventures.

I do take exception to your "Everyone here is miserable" comment. Not everyone is miserable but there are those members here that will point out to them why they should be. Does the old saying "misery loves company" ring any bells?

*Nonya busy*

Did you attach the wrong link to prove the class action lawsuit you referred to? I hardly think a video about racism is relevant.



Nats121 said:


> For all intents and purposes, companies classify workers as independent contractors as a scam to evade paying the following....
> 
> Minimum wage, FICA, Unemployment Insurance, and Workmans Compensation.
> 
> ...


I agree that's why they classify themselves as contractors. Me personally I accepted my first sub contractor job knowing I would be the one to pay all those. But having taken early SS I had an earnings cap whereby for every $2 over the cap I would be forced to pay $1 back to SS. To avoid going over the yearly cap I deferred some of the income to my bookkeeper/wife/sub contractor.

$3.52 is the minimum in my market. Still pitiful. And a very few does include having to deal with loading/unloading groceries or whatever. Not all rides will be as profitable as one would wish. At the end of the day if your income doesn't consistently meet or exceed your expectations it's time to find another gig.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Pax Collector said:


> Lol where do I even begin on that? They're the ones destroying themselves. If it weren't for suckered venture capitalists that keep pumping cash into them, they would've been history long long ago.


I have to disagree.

Uber is worth approx $70 billion, of which their VCs have only kicked in anywhere from 10 to 17 billion dollars depending on which source you read.

WE THE DRIVERS are the ones who are pumping the cash into them. The billions of dollars uber's saving by paying us 1970s taxi rates is being used to finance SDCs, scooters, flying cars, world-wide expansion,etc.


BCS DRIVER said:


> kvetcher *: *a habitual complainer Where in any post I've done on this board did it seem I'm a complainer?
> 
> I'm not debating anyone. The intent of my thread was to show my take on the Uber/driver relationship as being a contractor/sub contractor relationship. And as such a contractor offers "jobs" to their sub(s) with the expectation that the sub will perform their job with a reasonable expectation of quality work. If said sub does not perform the job offered and accepted in a quality manner and in the process brings some level of harm or ill will to the contractor then that sub should be excluded from further job offers.
> 
> ...


My point about COMPANIES scamming IC status stands.

Uber and lyft drivers don't classify themselves as anything, uber and lyft are the ones who classify the drivers (falsely) as ICs.

We have to sign THEIR CONTRACT to drive.

If we were genuine contractors, uber and lyft would be signing OUR CONTRACT.

Maybe you're not aware of it, part of uber's IPO filing with the SEC is a request to classify the drivers as uber's CUSTOMERS.


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## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Uber is worth approx $70 billion


Which is significantly overvalued depending on which source you read.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> WE THE DRIVERS are the ones who are pumping the cash into them


You are 100% correct. What company will continue to operate without their employees/contractors making them money? Answer: NONE!



Nats121 said:


> If we were genuine contractors, uber and lyft would be signing OUR CONTRACT.


That's a new twist on things. Can you quote a reliable source on when an employee/contractor has successfully had said employer sign THEIR contract? No? I thought not.



Nats121 said:


> Maybe you're not aware of it, part of uber's IPO filing with the SEC is a request to classify the drivers as uber's CUSTOMERS.


No I'm not aware of any of the IPO details. If in fact drivers become classified as customers so what? What do riders become classified as?


----------



## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

BCS DRIVER said:


> If in fact drivers become classified as customers so what? What do riders become classified as?


Sub Customers?


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

BCS DRIVER said:


> You are 100% correct. What company will continue to operate without their employees/contractors making them money? Answer: NONE!


By woefully underpaying their drivers, they're saving BILLIONS of dollars.



BCS DRIVER said:


> That's a new twist on things. Can you quote a reliable source on when an employee/contractor has successfully had said employer sign THEIR contract? No? I thought not.


Yea. Try to find a building contractor, plumbing contractor, etc who will be willing to come to your home to do perform a job, and be willing to sign YOUR contract containing YOUR rules and YOUR pay rates. They'd tell you f-off and/or laugh as they're hanging up on you.

When you hire a plumber, carpenter, or any other contractor, if a there's a contract to sign, it's YOU signing THEIR CONTRACT.


----------



## Nonya busy (May 18, 2017)

BCS DRIVER said:


> kvetcher *: *a habitual complainer Where in any post I've done on this board did it seem I'm a complainer?
> 
> I'm not debating anyone. The intent of my thread was to show my take on the Uber/driver relationship as being a contractor/sub contractor relationship. And as such a contractor offers "jobs" to their sub(s) with the expectation that the sub will perform their job with a reasonable expectation of quality work. If said sub does not perform the job offered and accepted in a quality manner and in the process brings some level of harm or ill will to the contractor then that sub should be excluded from further job offers.
> 
> ...


Yes it is the wrong link I'm on a cellphone and tried to copy and paste the class action lawsuit.

Moreover, were not contractors by any stretch of the imagination. Contractors negotiate pay and they know the scope of the job before accepting. Uber totally controls how much we make hourly. We're totally employees.



Nats121 said:


> By woefully underpaying their drivers, they're saving BILLIONS of dollars.
> 
> Yea. Try to find a building contractor, plumbing contractor, etc who will be willing to come to your home to do perform a job, and be willing to sign YOUR contract containing YOUR rules and YOUR pay rates. They'd tell you f-off and/or laugh as they're hanging up on you.
> 
> When you hire a plumber, carpenter, or any other contractor, if a there's a contract to sign, it's YOU signing THEIR CONTRACT.


That's what i said or similar.



Pax Collector said:


> Which is significantly overvalued depending on which source you read.


Nah. All the expenses are on the stupid drivers. They're an expenseless business with the exception of research and development and human capital. The American dream is to get other people to use their resources and time to build your business. Uber is living this dream because of the stupid and or desperate drivers.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Nonya busy said:


> We're totally employees.


We're totally VERY WEAK employees.

Every job I've had as an employee, including my "real" job, there's always been a channel to request and possibly negotiate raises and even changes to my job and/or working conditions.

I don't always get what I ask for, but there's usually an opportunity to ask.

Contrast that with driving for uber and lyft, where drivers are not merely IC business owners, we're PARTNERS.

And yet despite that flowery language, we have LESS control over of our jobs than most so-called employees.

EVERYTHING about our jobs is handed down by dictatorial fiat, with ZERO driver say in the matter, and changes are always dictated by an ultimatum that we sign the new contract or else be terminated.


----------



## Nonya busy (May 18, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> We're totally VERY WEAK employees.
> 
> Every job I've had as an employee, including my "real" job, there's always been a channel to request and possibly negotiate raises and even changes to my job and/or working conditions.
> 
> ...


True


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> When you hire a plumber, carpenter, or any other contractor, if a there's a contract to sign, it's YOU signing THEIR CONTRACT.


We, as consumers, are not contractors or employers. And yes, if you hire a contractor of any type you are likely to have to sign a legally binding contract stating scope of work and payment terms.



Nonya busy said:


> Moreover, were not contractors by any stretch of the imagination. Contractors negotiate pay and they know the scope of the job before accepting. Uber totally controls how much we make hourly. We're totally employees.


The company I do the most contract work for receives a request for bid or quote from the client. They submit their quote or bid. Client accepts or rejects. If acceptance occurs the company sub contracts me to do a certain portion of the job. I, in turn, am free to accept or reject the offer. By no stretch of the imagination does this make me an employee.

Now substitute "rider" for "client". "Uber" for "company". And "driver" for "sub contractor". Make sense?

As to Uber controlling how much we make hourly is nonsense. You control this by your running the app and accepting ride requests and completing those rides. If at the end of the day your hourly rate is not up to your expectations request deactivation.



Nats121 said:


> And yet despite that flowery language, we have LESS control over of our jobs than most so-called employees.


You have total control over your job versus an employee. You know the mileage and minute rates for your area so it's up to you to maximize your earnings. Do it by cherry picking? You bring harm to the company via client complaints. Play the game straight up or suffer the consequences. You control when you want to work without penalty.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Uber's Guber said:


> You've exposed our plot.
> .
> .
> Not giving a shit in 3...2...1...


Took you THAT LONG ?


----------



## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

BCS DRIVER said:


> If that's the amount you're making per hour that's pitiful. 1 in a thousand workers might accept that. But it has no bearing on whether it's a contract job or not.
> 
> Of course I'm not saying pack up and go home. Just explain to the rider why you can't make the trip. Cancel and do not charge rider. This is the flexibility of doing this gig.


It's not per hour, it's the minimum trip. I actually get more since I'm grandfathered in. That's before expenses, of course.

Per hour is likely a loss for many after expenses.



BCS DRIVER said:


> If that's the amount you're making per hour that's pitiful. 1 in a thousand workers might accept that. But it has no bearing on whether it's a contract job or not.
> 
> Of course I'm not saying pack up and go home. Just explain to the rider why you can't make the trip. Cancel and do not charge rider. This is the flexibility of doing this gig.


But you just said we shouldn't do that...so now it's ok?


----------



## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Per hour is likely a loss for many after expenses.


Agreed. If all you're getting is short minimum trips. Hopefully there will be more lucrative ones sprinkled in there.



Fuzzyelvis said:


> But you just said we shouldn't do that...so now it's ok?


I meant you shouldn't do it due to the fact of the trip being shorter than you care for or whatever. However if there are extenuating circumstances, like you're having to be somewhere at a certain time, it's OK. Not a great thing but things do happen. I did also say to no charge the rider. At least they don't have to fork over money due to your issue with not being able to make the trip.


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## JamesBond008 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pax Collector said:


> Name a sub contractor that would undertake a task for a loss.
> 
> Example: If a driver (Sub contractor like you defined it) has to drive 20+ minutes to pick up a fare only to take them a few feet, that wasn't a profitable work. You made it sound like these sub contractors are working for charity.
> 
> ...


I like the McDonald's example. What would happen if you went into McDonalds, asked for a soft serve cone (about 50 cents worth), and the person behind the counter said sorry, that's just not profitable for me/us, no, I'll cancel your order.

McDonalds's would quickly go out of business. Uber will too with attitudes as above.

Anybody holding a decent job and/or running their own business realizes that not ever transaction will be profitable.


----------



## Nonya busy (May 18, 2017)

JamesBond008 said:


> I like the McDonald's example. What would happen if you went into McDonalds, asked for a soft serve cone (about 50 cents worth), and the person behind the counter said sorry, that's just not profitable for me/us, no, I'll cancel your order.
> 
> McDonalds's would quickly go out of business. Uber will too with attitudes as above.
> 
> Anybody holding a decent job and/or running their own business realizes that not ever transaction will be profitable.


If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't be 50 cents. It's called capitalism.


----------



## JamesBond008 (Mar 26, 2018)

Nonya busy said:


> If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't be 50 cents. It's called capitalism.


Um... No. Not all transaction and/or customers will be profitable. But they need to be done, because otherwise the business at large will fail. Taxi's spring to mind... Something you can't grasp.


----------



## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

JamesBond008 said:


> I like the McDonald's example. What would happen if you went into McDonalds, asked for a soft serve cone (about 50 cents worth), and the person behind the counter said sorry, that's just not profitable for me/us, no, I'll cancel your order.
> 
> McDonalds's would quickly go out of business. Uber will too with attitudes as above.
> 
> Anybody holding a decent job and/or running their own business realizes that not ever transaction will be profitable.


Sorry but that makes absolutely no sense.


----------



## Nonya busy (May 18, 2017)

JamesBond008 said:


> Um... No. Not all transaction and/or customers will be profitable. But they need to be done, because otherwise the business at large will fail. Taxi's spring to mind... Something you can't grasp.


I could take time to explain, but any person that doesn't understand a business needs to be profitable simply isn't worth my time.

If uber was paying for gas etc.. do you think they would accept $2 rides?


----------



## Demon (Dec 6, 2014)

Nonya busy said:


> I could take time to explain, but any person that doesn't understand a business needs to be profitable simply isn't worth my time.
> 
> If uber was paying for gas etc.. do you think they would accept $2 rides?


You didn't read what that poster wrote. He didn't say that the business wouldn't be profitable, they said some transactions won't be profitable.


----------



## JamesBond008 (Mar 26, 2018)

Nonya busy said:


> I could take time to explain, but any person that doesn't understand a business needs to be profitable simply isn't worth my time.
> 
> If uber was paying for gas etc.. do you think they would accept $2 rides?


Well Uber isn't profitable...

You don't seem to grasp the fact that not every job, client, etc is profitable (per the McDonalds example) but the transaction still needs to occur otherwise the business goes out of business..

People drifted away from Taxi's (and many companies, individuals, owners, etc lost money went out of business) and if you have to name two of the top five reasons why, it would be refusal of short trips and cancellations.

But hey mate, keep having that attitude.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

JamesBond008 said:


> I like the McDonald's example. What would happen if you went into McDonalds, asked for a soft serve cone (about 50 cents worth), and the person behind the counter said sorry, that's just not profitable for me/us, no, I'll cancel your order.
> 
> McDonalds's would quickly go out of business. Uber will too with attitudes as above.
> 
> Anybody holding a decent job and/or running their own business realizes that not ever transaction will be profitable.


Your McDonalds soft serve analogy is rediculous.

The income of the person serving the cone STAYS THE SAME regardless of the profit or loss McD makes on what he serves. He has no more skin in the game than the guy who mops the floors.

Rideshare drivers income on the other hand VARIES according to each ride he gives. He has MOST of the skin in the game.

Unlike business owners, drivers don't set their prices.

McD may choose to use cones or other items as loss-leader marketing tools to generate sales of more profitable items.

Drivers have no loss-leaders. A money-losing ride is a money-losing ride, period.



Nonya busy said:


> If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't be 50 cents. It's called capitalism.


Remember that unlike rideshare drivers, McD can use cones or other items as loss-leaders to generate MORE business.

Contrast that with drivers, in which a money-losing ride is a straight out loss of income.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

JamesBond008 said:


> Um... No. Not all transaction and/or customers will be profitable. But they need to be done, because otherwise the business at large will fail. Taxi's spring to mind... Something you can't grasp.


Because with them, a large portion of unprofitable items are sold to bring customers in, to sell them something else, or for repeat business, where they come back for more profitable items.

So it benefits them in the long run to take a chance on a few customers only ever buying a nonprofit item.

However over 4 years in my market, about 2 full time, I can count on my fingers the number of repeat customers I've had. So loss leaders do me no good. They may help Uber, becauseUber makes money on almost every trip due to the large % of short trips where they take 50-60% of the fare.

You could argue I benefit from more business in general, but that would be true only if the # of drivers was limited. But it's not. The more business, the more drivers, and the driver #s are in increasing faster than the business.


----------



## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

BCS DRIVER, what you see as "gaming" I see as being efficient. Nothing wrong with being efficient.


----------



## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

dmoney155 said:


> BCS DRIVER, what you see as "gaming" I see as being efficient. Nothing wrong with being efficient.


Nothing wrong with efficiency in my play book. Except when said efficiency brings ill will toward the company you're performing a job for from the client. As a business owner that uses subs I won't tolerate any sub that bends the rules or cuts corners to benefit themselves when the end product or experience to the client is not fully satisfactory.



Nats121 said:


> Your McDonalds soft serve analogy is rediculous.


Agreed. Rideshare drivers do not depend on repeat business from the same client, unless you lump all riders in together into the category of "client". If so, as the clients become more disgruntled with the games some drivers play they will turn elsewhere for their rides.


----------



## Nonya busy (May 18, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Your McDonalds soft serve analogy is rediculous.
> 
> The income of the person serving the cone STAYS THE SAME regardless of the profit or loss McD makes on what he serves. He has no more skin in the game than the guy who mops the floors.
> 
> ...


Yes, i didn't feel like explaining basic marketing to someone who believes $2 rides are necessary for drivers.


----------



## Dan2miletripguy (Nov 3, 2018)

Regarding cherry picking.... with the tech the way it is now how exactly does anyone do this? I wanna know cuz I wanna do it too! Help a brotha out.


----------



## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

Dan2miletripguy said:


> Regarding cherry picking.... with the tech the way it is now how exactly does anyone do this? I wanna know cuz I wanna do it too! Help a brotha out.


There isn't really much to it. You accept a request, call or text your rider and ask where they're going. If you don't like the answer, cancel or have them cancel it. Do it in moderation to fly under the "Tech's" radar.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Pax Collector said:


> There isn't really much to it. You accept a request, call or text your rider and ask where they're going. If you don't like the answer, cancel or have them cancel it. Do it in moderation to fly under the "Tech's" radar.


Texting pax is riskier than calling them because texts leave a "paper trail".


----------



## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Texting pax is riskier than calling them because texts leave a "paper trail".


Calling them is the same since "All calls are recorded" but it doesn't matter. As long as one doesn't do it constantly, an occasional cherry picking won't do much damage.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Pax Collector said:


> Calling them is the same since "All calls are recorded" but it doesn't matter. As long as one doesn't do it constantly, an occasional cherry picking won't do much damage.


The only question is how would uber respond if pax call uber and make a fuss about being left stranded by a screener.


----------



## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> The only question is how would uber respond if pax call uber and make a fuss about being left stranded by a screener.


The pax would get a canned and automated response that would read like this.

Hi, so and so,

I'm sorry to hear about your recent experience as a rider. Let me look into this matter for you.

I understand that it could be frustrating when pick ups don't go smoothly and on time. While on the Uber platform, we expect riders and drivers to behave according to our community guidelines listed here,

https://www.uber.com/legal/community-guidelines/us-en/

As our valued customer, I have refunded the cancellation fee that you were charged and your next trip with us will be 20% off.

Please let us know if there are any more issues in the future.

Rohit. S


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Pax Collector said:


> The pax would get a canned and automated response that would read like this.
> 
> Hi, so and so,
> 
> ...


Resolved, lol.

Most likely a pissed off pax is going to call uber, not send an email.

What I'd like to know is how many pax complaints would put the driver in danger of being fired?


----------



## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> What I'd like to know is how many pax complaints would put the driver in danger of being fired?


It greatly depends on what the complaint is about. "My driver fondled me" is looked at differently from "My driver cancelled my trip".

Also the amount of complaints a driver receives affect account status in the long run.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Pax Collector said:


> It greatly depends on what the complaint is about. "My driver fondled me" is looked at differently from "My driver cancelled my trip".
> 
> Also the amount of complaints a driver receives affect account status in the long run.


I mean specifically how many screening complaints would put a driver in danger of being fired.


----------



## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> I mean specifically how many screening complaints would put a driver in danger of being fired.


No way to know for sure. Just focus on severety and volume for now.


----------



## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

https://uberpeople.net/threads/instant-pay-removed.296548/#post-4510979

No way of knowing if if happened due to complaints or what. Obviously you don't want to flagged due to cancellations.


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> I have to disagree.
> 
> Uber is worth approx $70 billion, of which their VCs have only kicked in anywhere from 10 to 17 billion dollars depending on which source you read.
> 
> ...


Thats exactly what we are, Uber;s customer.. They are a lead generating service. They find people that want a ride and sell that information to us, independent contractors

In a past life i was a stock broker, and more recently a realestate agent. In both businesses I bought leads from lead services. I had no idea what these folks wanted to buy or whether they would buy at all.. Some did and some didnt. I made money with some and didnt with others. With the stock broker I was an employee and with realestate I was an independent contractor. In both cases my pay was all commission (which was split with the company) I didnt see any difference between the two except the stock broker told me i had to come to the office every day

Uber feels the same to me. I drive, Uber supplies me with my customers, And I pay uber a share of my earnings. I make money with most rides and maybe lose with a few, Things average out



Nonya busy said:


> I started a thread that says I'm simply cancelling when i figure a ride is only $2, deactivation be dammed. It's below not worth it. They make us take them not for any financial benefits, but purely out of deactivation fear. That's beyond rediculous.


I read a post in another thread where the driver said their rate was 60 cents a mile but he made over $1 a mile (total miles) because of the minimum fare. a half a mile to pick up and a 1 mile ride for $2.29.. thats a whole lot better than my favorite 50 mile ride that pays $45

I have found that if I take every ride, even the short ones I hate; as long as the wheels are turning Im doing well

When I was selling, the way I was able to keep working through the rejections is with the knowledge that every "No" brought me closer to a "Yes" Uber is like that too, every short ride brings me closer to a good one


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

HotUberMess said:


> A subcontractor IS an independent contractor. What in the world are you talking about "not an IC"?
> 
> .


I dont get the distinction between sub contractor and independent contractor either


----------



## HotUberMess (Feb 25, 2018)

oldfart said:


> I dont get the distinction between sub contractor and independent contractor either


There's literally none, it's like saying a dad can't be a son, because he's a dad LOL


----------



## Dan2miletripguy (Nov 3, 2018)

Everyone has to do what they feel is best for them in this gig. I haven't yet contacted a pax to find out where they are going so that I can decide if I want to cancel or not.

Maybe it will come to that for me because like everyone else I go home frustrated some days and sometimes feel taken advantage of by this whole thing.

I know I'm free to not do this gig ever again but I like it and I really want to make it work


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

oldfart said:


> Thats exactly what we are, Uber;s customer.. They are a lead generating service. They find people that want a ride and sell that information to us, independent contractors


Just like uber, you're trying hard to convince people that the animal we're watching that looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, and shits like a duck is an elephant.

Despite your and uber's claims, uber is a TRANSPORTATION COMPANY.

Uber controls EVERY ASPECT of the "rideshare business". They make ALL the rules, they write ALL the contracts, they set ALL the rates, they decide ALL types of services to be offered, they do ALL the dispatching, they hire and fire the drivers, etc, etc, etc.

We the drivers are not uber's customers, we're uber's employees.

There are no "leads" to generate.

Uber solicits customers to use their transportation and delivery services, finds out where they want to go, quotes them a price for the service, and charges their account.

Uber then selects the laborer they want to fetch and haul their customer. The laborer completes the job for a set wage rate per mile, minute, etc. and gets paid (poorly) for their labor. 


oldfart said:


> Uber supplies me with my customers


Ever since uber started their upfront price scam, we no longer work on commission.

There's ONE customer in this transaction, and that's the pax, and the pax is UBER'S customer, not the driver.

To compare uber drivers to stockbrokers and real estate agents is so absurb, that even Dara wouldn't try to make that comparison.

It's even more incredible that you would make the comparison since you claim you've been done each job, and of all people you should know how totally different each job is from driving for uber.

A real estate broker gets a "lead" because they're trying to SELL something (real estate) to someone. A real estate broker is both a salesperson AND a facilitator (go-between).

A stockbroker is also a go-between.



oldfart said:


> Uber supplies me with my customers


Uber supplies you with work assignments.


oldfart said:


> And I pay uber a share of my earnings


You pay ZERO of your earnings to uber. In my market, uber has settled on 84 cents per mile as the wage they want to pay the drivers, which they then proceed to artificially markup to $1.13 for the sole purpose of taking a phony "service fee" of 25%, and lowering it back to their selected rate of 84 cents per mile.

So instead of simply listing 84 cents per mile as our pay rate, they go thru a whole charade in order to pretend we're being paid by "commission"

It's similar to the shady practice of many mattress stores marking stuff up so it can be "marked down" for a "sale".


----------



## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Uber solicits customers to use their transportation and delivery services, finds out where they want to go, quotes them a price for the service, and charges their account.


Uber advertises their services. They do not contact/solicit anyone to use their service. A potential customer requests a quote to use their service. Quote is given by Uber. The potential customer accepts the quote. Since Uber cannot perform the actual service themselves they in turn sub the completion of the service to a driver/sub who in turn, being independent, accepts or declines to complete the service. If accepted and completed by the sub Uber then charges the customer's credit card for the entire cost of the service rendered. They then credit the subs account with an agreed amount/portion of the total charge.

I can't put it any simpler than that.

*"driver/sub who in turn, being independent, accepts or declines to complete the service"*
Here is where your saying that drivers are employees falls apart. Employees are not free to accept/decline to perform a service requested by their employer. And it's just one example of why drivers are not employees.


----------



## Nonya busy (May 18, 2017)

oldfart said:


> Thats exactly what we are, Uber;s customer.. They are a lead generating service. They find people that want a ride and sell that information to us, independent contractors
> 
> In a past life i was a stock broker, and more recently a realestate agent. In both businesses I bought leads from lead services. I had no idea what these folks wanted to buy or whether they would buy at all.. Some did and some didnt. I made money with some and didnt with others. With the stock broker I was an employee and with realestate I was an independent contractor. In both cases my pay was all commission (which was split with the company) I didnt see any difference between the two except the stock broker told me i had to come to the office every day
> 
> ...


 Bull!! There's numerous stufied by prestigious universities that ssys the worse thing you can do is take wny ride.

*The more i write on this website, the more i realize imI wasting time. About 10% real drivers and 80% uberlyft undercovers and 10% other*


----------



## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Nonya busy said:


> Bull!! There's numerous stufied by prestigious universities that ssys the worse thing you can do is take wny ride.


Where does this meaningless load of crap come from?


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Just like uber, you're trying hard to convince people that the animal we're watching that looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, and shits like a duck is an elephant.
> 
> Despite your and uber's claims, uber is a TRANSPORTATION COMPANY.
> 
> ...


You are right to say that we don't get paid commissions. The fact is we pay a commission to Uber

We aren't assigned anything, we are made an offer that we can accept or reject

I get it, it would be nice if we were given all the details. But we aren't. We have to make a decision in a few seconds, based on limited information. Sometimes I make a little, sometimes a little more and sometimes I give my customer my card so they can call me next time. Roughly 20% of my income is from regular customers and that's growing

So I go back to something I've said here before. There are two kinds of Uber drivers; those that treat this as a job and those that treat it as a business.
If you see it as a job, I agree it's a lousy job, long hours for little pay and worse than that, you have no idea what that pay check is gonna be at the end of the week
We business owners see it differently, we see a low cost of entry, a fair return on investment and pretty good income potential (at least I do)

You may be right, maybe we are employees. But at least for now uber is getting away with treating us as independent contractors. And that's the way I like it. I'm on their side in this argument


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

oldfart said:


> You are right to say that we don't get paid commissions. The fact is we pay a commission to Uber


I'll say it again, we pay NOTHING to uber.

The 84 cents per mile I get is the amount uber has CHOSEN to pay the DC drivers, period. The 29 cent "commission" or "fee" that you claim we pay that brings the "total" to $1.13 per mile is FAKE.

As I already pointed out, if uber wanted to, they could end the charade today, and announce that 84 cents IS the pay rate and always has been since the last pay rate change.

The govt would never allow companies to list inflated pay rates for employees who are then charged "commissions" or "fees". It would be considered wage fraud.

When Walmart lists $12 per hour as the rate of pay, that's what the worker gets, not $16 per hour minus a fictitious $4 "fee".


oldfart said:


> We aren't assigned anything, we are made an offer that we can accept or reject


Uber selects the driver (dispatches) who they want to perform the labor. They driver may or may not accept the work offer. Declining "too many" offers used to get X drivers terminated (and still can with Eats according to the Eats contract).

EVERY EMPLOYEE in the USA is free to choose to reject work offers too, and just like uber drivers (before the California deal), they will face the possible consequence (termination) for making that choice.


oldfart said:


> I get it, it would be nice if we were given all the details. But we aren't. We have to make a decision in a few seconds, based on limited information.


That's a truly asinine way to run a business.


oldfart said:


> sometimes I give my customer my card so they can call me next time. Roughly 20% of my income is from regular customers and that's growing


You better be careful that you don't hand it to an uber employee, especially an exec or else you'll find your self terminated.


oldfart said:


> So I go back to something I've said here before. There are two kinds of Uber drivers; those that treat this as a job and those that treat it as a business.


The vast majority of drivers have always treated it as a job, despite travis' attempts to convince drivers that they were "entrepreneurs"

He even tried to convince drivers to invest in fleets. The ones that listened to him eventually regretted it after he pulled the rug out from under them with his rate cuts, that resulted in many repos and bankruptcies (the infamous Travis-driver fight video)

The fact is most people are not cut out to be entrepreneurs. So your idea of raiding uber's customers, (that's right, those are UBER'S customers), as a way to build your own livery company will be of no use to the vast majority of drivers.


oldfart said:


> You may be right, maybe we are employees. But at least for now uber is getting away with treating us as independent contractors. And that's the way I like it. I'm on their side in this argument


You're 180 degrees wrong about uber treating us like contractors.

They treat drivers like EMPLOYEES.


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

*Nats121*

Is there a single, or more, employer on Earth that:
1. Allows their employees to not show up for work for days-weeks-months at a time with no permission needed
from the employer?
2. Allows their employees to pick and choose their job assignments without fear of repercussions?
3. Allows their employees to set their own personal minimum hourly rate?
4. Requires their employees to use their own personal tools and vehicles to do their job without specific compensation for 
such?

If indeed such an employer does exist please name it or them.


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## Nonya busy (May 18, 2017)

BCS DRIVER said:


> Where does this meaningless load of crap come from?


Um...... You're Azzz.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> I'll say it again, we pay NOTHING to uber.
> 
> The 84 cents per mile I get is the amount uber has CHOSEN to pay the DC drivers, period. The 29 cent "commission" or "fee" that you claim we pay that brings the "total" to $1.13 per mile is FAKE.
> 
> ...


Not sure what Walmart has to do with anything

You posted this:

"Maybe you're not aware of it, part of uber's IPO filing with the SEC is a request to classify the drivers as uber's CUSTOMERS"

I didnt realize it was in the IPO filing but I did know that thats how uber sees us. and what I posted flows from that.

If we are ubers customers...what is it that we are buying? as I see it, uber is the middleman connecting a person that wants a ride, (a rider) with an independent business man that wants to provide rides. (me) The rider is my customer

At least thats the way I see it. I understand that an uber exec or you might see things differently but thats a risk im willing to take

when I say uber treats us like independent contractors, what I mean is thats the way they see it

agreed, most people are not entrepreneurs.. and most dont want to form their own livery company and would fail if they tried....so what.. I do and given the lousy pay rate and given the number of dead miles I drive. I think its the only way to make it

Ive talked to one of those fleet owners, one that didnt go bankrupt.. he seems to be doing ok


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

oldfart said:


> Not sure what Walmart has to do with anything


I explained how it related to this topic in my previous post. 


oldfart said:


> "Maybe you're not aware of it, part of uber's IPO filing with the SEC is a request to classify the drivers as uber's CUSTOMERS"


It's pretty much unprecedented for a company to do that, and uber's reason is SECRECY.

By classifying drivers as customers, they'll be able to keep driver pay from becoming public knowledge. Real nice isn't it?


oldfart said:


> If we are ubers customers...what is it that we are buying?


The fact is we're not uber's customers.

In all of the articles and their literature I've read and in all of the interviews with Dara and other execs I've read, uber has never referred to drivers as their customers. It's always "partners" or "independent contractors".

The request to classify drivers as their customers is another one of their many scams.


oldfart said:


> when I say uber treats us like independent contractors, what I mean is thats the way they see it


That's the way they claim they see it. They know they're treating us like employees.


oldfart said:


> agreed, most people are not entrepreneurs.. and most dont want to form their own livery company and would fail if they tried....so what.. I do and given the lousy pay rate and given the number of dead miles I drive. I think its the only way to make it


That's a hell of an indictment of the exploitative way they treat their drivers, especially considering how our labor has increased the value of that shit company to more than $70 billion and possibly to more than $120 billion next year.


oldfart said:


> Ive talked to one of those fleet owners, one that didnt go bankrupt.. he seems to be doing ok


He may or may not be doing OK, but Travis ruined a bunch of them back in 2014-15 when he cut rates so low that drivers were unwilling or unable to continue leasing the vehicles, which put many fleet owners underwater.

The driver in the infamous told Travis that the price cuts bankrupted him.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

BCS DRIVER said:


> Is there a single, or more, employer on Earth that:
> 1. Allows their employees to not show up for work for days-weeks-months at a time with no permission needed
> from the employer?


Yeah, my first summer job. The receiver at the warehouse I worked at literally came and went when he pleased, and the result was all the rest of us had to pick up the slack for him.

Ever heard of no-show or seldom-show jobs? They exist, some of them have been govt jobs.


BCS DRIVER said:


> 2. Allows their employees to pick and choose their job assignments without fear of repercussions?


The fact that uber hides the destination, pickup address, and driver payout from drivers makes it laughable to say drivers are "picking and choosing" their work assignments.

As far as being without fear of repercussions, that means drivers will NO LONGER be terminated for low acceptance rates.

Uber offered that concession as an attempt to appease a judge in a 2016 lawsuit to prevent drivers from being classified as employees.

Uber STILL reserves the right to terminate EATS drivers for low acceptance rates.


BCS DRIVER said:


> 3. Allows their employees to set their own personal minimum hourly rate?


That one's funny.

My personal minimum hourly rate is $100 per hour, and uber's NEVER allowed me to reach it.


BCS DRIVER said:


> 4. Requires their employees to use their own personal tools and vehicles to do their job without specific compensation for
> such?


Most auto repair shops require their mechanics to supply their own tools.

Every one of the things you listed put together STILL doesn't legally equate to being an independent contractor.


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## UberLyftFlexWhatever (Nov 23, 2018)




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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> I explained how it related to this topic in my previous post.
> 
> It's pretty much unprecedented for a company to do that, and uber's reason is SECRECY.
> 
> ...


you may want us to be employees, but just wanting it dosent make it so

Heres something I took from the Uber website

*About Uber*
Uber is a technology company with a proprietary technology application (the "App") that provides on-demand lead generation and related services. The App connects independent providers of transportation services with requests from riders requesting transportation services. Drivers provide transportation services to riders through a range of offerings based on vehicle type and/or the number of riders. The Company has expanded the App to enable the transport and delivery of food and packages.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

oldfart said:


> you may want us to be employees, but just wanting it dosent make it so
> 
> Heres something I took from the Uber website
> 
> ...





oldfart said:


> you may want us to be employees, but just wanting it dosent make it so
> 
> Heres something I took from the Uber website
> 
> ...


I don't want to be an employee, that's one of the reasons I signed up.

However, Uber TREATS us like employees.

Uber can call themselves a technology company, but that doesn't change the fact that they're a transportation company.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> I don't want to be an employee, that's one of the reasons I signed up.
> 
> However, Uber TREATS us like employees.
> 
> Uber can call themselves a technology company, but that doesn't change the fact that they're a transportation company.


I found a report that says the SEC has approved Ubers business model

https://observer.com/2017/10/uber-going-public-sec-business-model-driver-earnings/

and the paragraph that describes us as customers

Uber revealed that the Securities and Exchange Commission has signed off on its business model. This represents the ride-hailing service's first step toward going public.

According to Uber's SEC filing, its drivers are the company's actual customers, rather than the passengers those drivers pick up. That makes Uber an "agent" which connects the actual "merchant," the driver, with a customer.

So now it would seem the "request" is now approved 
we are ubers customers and the riders are our customers


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## UberLyftFlexWhatever (Nov 23, 2018)

oldfart said:


> I found a report that says the SEC has approved Ubers business model
> 
> https://observer.com/2017/10/uber-going-public-sec-business-model-driver-earnings/
> 
> ...


*Of Course drivers are Uber's Customers.
We Pay to Use THEIR APP
which comes w/ rules,regulation & procedures *
_period _​


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## RHODYrideshare (Nov 29, 2018)

BCS DRIVER said:


> Not that I feel it's relevant to my post but 1,915 trips, started in June of 2017.


Started in July 2018 and already at 1000 rides and I don't work more than 68 hours a MONTH lol


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

RHODYrideshare said:


> Started in July 2018 and already at 1000 rides and I don't work more than 68 hours a MONTH lol


Sounds like you're in a good market. How do you handle your acceptance? Take them all, screen, cherry pick?


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Yeah, my first summer job. The receiver at the warehouse I worked at literally came and went when he pleased, and the result was all the rest of us had to pick up the slack for him.


Would you have kept your job there if you'd done the same? How do you know the receiver did not have his absences pre-approved by management? What if he'd have been a no show for a month?



Nats121 said:


> Ever heard of no-show or seldom-show jobs? They exist, some of them have been govt jobs.


A *no*-*show* job is a paid position that ostensibly requires the holder to perform duties, but for which *no* work, or even attendance, is actually expected. The awarding of *no*-*show jobs* is a form of political or corporate corruption.

Essentially a ghost job, not real employment.



Nats121 said:


> That one's funny.
> 
> My personal minimum hourly rate is $100 per hour, and uber's NEVER allowed me to reach it.


Your response is what's funny if not downright ridiculous. Dream on or become a medical doctor or lawyer.



Nats121 said:


> Every one of the things you listed put together STILL doesn't legally equate to being an independent contractor.


If it doesn't equate to being a contractor then what, in your opinion, does it equate to being?


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