# FILE FORM SS-8 To Have The IRS Make A Determination Of Worker Status (Employee or IC)



## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

It turns out the IRS has a little known department up in Holtsville, New York that will make a determination if a Uber driver is an employee or an independent contractor. All you have to do is fill out a form, sign it and mail it in. The IRS will then make the determination from the information you submit and the information they collect from Uber.

I sent mine in about 2 weeks ago. This will determine who has to pay the employee taxes. (The driver or Uber)

In reading about this Form SS-8, it appears that the IRS has determined that over 90% of the SS-8 forms filed come back ruled as employees.

It that happens in our case then Uber would be responsible for the FICA match as well as mileage reimbursement. Uber would also be subject to minimum wage and overtime.

There is no cost to file the form. Please take 30 minutes and do this.

Here is the link to the page:

https://www.irs.gov/uac/About-Form-SS8

Here is the link to the form:

https://www.*irs*.gov/pub/*irs*-pdf/f*ss8*.pdf

It takes about 30 minutes to fill out the form.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

So you want the service to determine that you are a Federal Employee ?

Even if Uber loses that suit, how are you a Federal Employee?

I'd love to see your answers on that. And you signed it "Under Penalties of Perjury" People have received liter sentences for murder.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

T


Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> So you want the service to determine that you are a Federal Employee ?
> 
> Even if Uber loses that suit, how are you a Federal Employee?


The IRS Form SS-8 helps determine if you are an employee of Uber or an independent contractor for Uber.

There is nothing Federal about it and you would not be considered a Federal Employee in any case.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

You do realize that any determination letter back to you may be computer generated, much like the canned csr responses.

Wonder how long it will take, 6-8 weeks or perhaps some time after June 20th.

However, glad you volunteered to be a guinea pig.


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## YouWishYouKnewMe (May 26, 2015)

Let me know the outcome, I'd be happy to do it if it actually proves useful


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Here is some more information about the SS-8 Program. Lots of good stuff in here.

https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2013reports/201330058fr.html


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

Yeah I can see Appendix V happening.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> Yeah I can see Appendix V happening.


I'm not so sure about that. The government likes to collect money from payroll taxes. In fact they really like to collect money from payroll taxes because that is how the people making the decisions (like judges and IRS employees) get paid. They really do not want to let anything go. So for that reason they are more inclined to rule in favor of the government collecting more money than the government giving up any revenue. It's in their DNA!

This is the reason that Uber has lost every court ruling thus far on this issue. Uber will continue to lose these court rulings.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Bob Reynolds said:


> It turns out the IRS has a little known department up in Holtsville, New York that will make a determination if a Uber driver is an employee or an independent contractor. All you have to do is fill out a form, sign it and mail it in. The IRS will then make the determination from the information you submit and the information they collect from Uber.
> 
> I sent mine in about 2 weeks ago. This will determine who has to pay the employee taxes. (The driver or Uber)
> 
> ...


Uber will most likely use the *section 530 safe harbor* rules to defend this. They've probably received tons of ss8 forms over the years and will use standard responses that they've worked out. Also, many companies file ss8's before the contractors( I did with my taxi company in 1997) and if Uber has done this they're already a step ahead of you. If your ss8 is successful you'll still have to pay any income taxes you owe and your 50% of the fica taxes. You will be relieved of having to pay the employer's part of the fica taxes as you mentioned, however, the mileage reimbursement and minimum wage issues/overtime issues will not be resolved by the SS8. Those are state issues not federal. 
I wish you luck and I'm looking forward to hearing your follow up. The 530 safe harbor rules in a nutshell:
*A taxpayer is deemed to have had a reasonable basis for not treating an individual as an employee if the taxpayer reasonably relies on:*

*Judicial precedent, published rulings, or technical advice with respect to the taxpayer, or a letter ruling to the taxpayer;*
*A past IRS audit of the taxpayer in which there was no assessment attributable to the treatment (for employment tax purposes) of the individuals holding positions substantially similar to the position held by this individual; or*
*Long-standing recognized practice of a significant segment of the industry in which the individual was engaged.*


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Here's a good article about section 530 relief that I discussed above
http://www.thetaxadviser.com/issues/2012/jun/nash-june2012.html


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

UberTaxPro,

Uber will absolutely attempt to use the 530 safe harbor rules. That is the only thing that they have. However they are going to have some major problems to overcome to demonstrate this was accidental or something used in good faith.

Here are the problems they must overcome:

1. The drivers are not being paid the minimum wage. If the independent contractors were at least making the minimum wage this would not be a hurdle. But when it can be easily demonstrated that most drivers are not making the minimum wage it is going to be tough for the DOL, IRS or a Court to let Uber off of the hook under 530.

2. Uber has lost every court hearing so far regarding the employee/independent contractor status. The current court case is being watched and the judge is being very careful to make sure all of his T's are crossed and his i's are dotted.

3. The state labor department in California have ruled Uber drivers to be employees.

If there had been no court cases or labor department rulings and the drivers were making at least the minimum wage, then it would have been reasonable for Uber to have qualified under 530.

But I believe that horse has left the barn.

In addition, Uber can not use 530 if they are under a DOL investigation or audit. I believe the DOL is going to be there real soon. They issued an Administrator's Interpretation No. 2015-1 on July 15, 2015.

Here it is:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/workers/misclassification/ai-2015_1.htm


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Bob Reynolds said:


> UberTaxPro,
> 
> Uber will absolutely attempt to use the 530 safe harbor rules. That is the only thing that they have. However they are going to have some major problems to overcome to demonstrate this was accidental or something used in good faith.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. Please let me know how it turns out. With all the members on here you would think someone would have filed an SS-8 already. Maybe someone will come forward. Are you still driving for Uber? Are you worried that they'll retaliate in other ways for filing the SS-8?


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

UberTaxPro said:


> Thanks for the info. Please let me know how it turns out. With all the members on here you would think someone would have filed an SS-8 already. Maybe someone will come forward. Are you still driving for Uber? Are you worried that they'll retaliate in other ways for filing the SS-8?


I would have thought someone would have filled out an SS-8 already as well. But in searching the forums, I could not find anyone that has done this. There was some mention about doing it in one of the posts last spring, but no one has said they have actually filed.

I am still driving for Uber. They sent me an e-mail telling me that I am in the top 10% of Uber drivers. (ratings wise)

I did file the complaint with the Department Of Labor as well. That action protects me from Uber de-activating me. If they don't follow the rules then those DOL penalties are substantially increased.

The bottom line is that Uber must follow the rules.


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## UberPissed (Aug 13, 2014)

I didn't read all the posts -but something to consider - if your SS8 determination is favorable, you are still on the hook for your end of the payroll tax, which is around 8 percent. So if you do that, you should still make an estimated payment. 

Side note - GOOD LUCK

Second side note - SS8 cases are in queue for over 300 days, sometimes longer.


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