# Ridehail needs to transition towards Electric Cars



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Hater's gonna hate, but this transition should be encouraged.

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...reen-choice-ride-hailing-needs-to-go-electric


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Hater's gonna hate, but this transition should be encouraged.
> 
> https://www.greencarreports.com/new...reen-choice-ride-hailing-needs-to-go-electric


It couldnt hurt.
Hybrid at least.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

It kinda blows my mind that neither UBER or LYFT have put a 'Green Vehicles Only' option into the passenger app. in most markets. I mean what would that be, about half a days worth of coding, and no cost to pax except maybe waiting for an extra minute? Especially in California and Portland, this seems like the lowest of low-hanging fruit.

has anyone in any market reading this ever seen or used LYFT's GREEN option in their app, or was it just vapourware announcement in February 2019?

Seattle Passengers, @Lissetti ?


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## VanGuy (Feb 15, 2019)

Doing it with a hybrid at the moment. I don't think the range of my previous electric Soul at 150KM, 94 miles would have been enough, even part time.

But all the newer electrics now have much more range and would be great in my opinion.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

would we be paid more? I'd go run out now and by a Tesla Model 3.


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## Bubsie (Oct 19, 2017)

Yeah they'll do usual bait and switch offer you $2 per mile for EV tier then 3 weeks later surprise rate is now 60 cents per mile.


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## Cdub2k (Nov 22, 2017)

Bubsie said:


> Yeah they'll do usual bait and switch offer you $2 per mile for EV tier then 3 weeks later surprise rate is now 60 cents per mile.


They'd at least wait until they got enough drivers operating with EV vehicles before slashing the rates back down.


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## BadYota (Aug 7, 2019)

Tell me again how a bunch of lower class people driving 1 year-from-being-deactivated beaters are going to afford electric cars? Uber is decades away from self driving cars and will never be able to transition to full electric. Only electric cars driving now are boomers with a pension who aren’t Uber’s core livestock


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

BadYota said:


> Only electric cars driving now are boomers with a pension who aren't Uber's core livestock


you need to move to calif. Every intersection is full of Tesla's and precious prius's. And they ain't being driven by boomers.


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## VanGuy (Feb 15, 2019)

I'd have a Tesla 3 right now if the last 5 years went as planned instead of batshit crazy.

Maybe even a Tesla X.


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## Nina2 (Oct 6, 2018)

I would buy a Tesla Model X if Uber or Lyft paid enough
but at least I am sorta helping the environment with a Prius but I do not think a Tesla is worth it for Rideshare unless you want to lose money or your a big fan of Tesla


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

VanGuy said:


> Maybe even a Tesla X.


idk, you check the price difference between the X and model 3? Yikes.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

I have a hybrid Avalon and love it! 50% better gas mileage than thr gas version and still enough power when needed. Dropped my coats almost 4 cents a mile. 

Yes it would be terrific if they had a hybrid electric option!


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

Is there even enough material in the world to make all cars electric?

I'm already paying f'in 10x more for a AA battery than I was 10 years ago.


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## jlittle (Aug 17, 2018)

Chevrolet Bolt EV driver here. 

I am a lot of pax’s first experience with a fully electric vehicle. Needless to say, people are impressed with instant acceleration, smoother deceleration with no brake, One pedal driving mode, operating cost at $.04/mile. I have been driving it for a year and a half.

Once you calculate the cost of the car and subtract rebates and the savings from not buying gas, I’ve saved enough money to now equal the purchase price of a base model Toyota Corolla; and I’m still saving money.

No monthly oil changes, distributor cap, rotor button, spark plugs, spark plug wires, fuel pump, Head gasket, intake manifold, carburetor, fuel lines.

and because of regen, brake pads look new. Tires are a different story. Otherwise the battery has maintained 99% of its capacity after 41,000 miles and it’s not due for its first major maintenance until 150,000 miles - drive motor uses transmission fluid to keep the gears lubricated. (There is no actual transmission.)


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## Coastal_Cruiser (Oct 1, 2018)

Well that makes at least 3 Bolt divers on this forum that I know of, @jlittle, @JaxUberLyft, and myself. Plus several electric car owners, including Kurt.

I too have hoped that U/L would start making the wise PR move of both offering a green choice to riders, as well as provide incentives to for drivers with EVs. On the rider side there may not be a critical mass of EVers yet to make a green car choice feasible. Although they could include hybrids.

But here again one wonders what Uber and Lyft are thinking when they bang heads in the strategy room. Have these folks never heard of good PR? They certainly should understand what bad PR is. A concerted effort to offer an EV fleet could paint over a lot of prior sins. I suppose each company thinks they can wait it out until the autonomous EVs arrive next year.

Except next year is 10 years away, at best. Did you hear that Elon Musk himself (Mr. Autonomous future) said recently that Tesla's Full Self Driving system is still years away from being perfected. Hello!?

But for those drivers that can afford payments we are very close to electric cars lasting long enough to where the payments could be completed before the car is driven into the ground. And that's at the high volume of miles we put on our rideshare cars.

This is what I'll be driving rideshare with in a few years. If U/L qualifies it.










Trying to squeeze in an extra pax? No problem. Seat belts for 5 passengers.
Got a ton of luggage or a 90" TV? No problem.
It's raining on your luggage? No problem, just extend the cover.
Keyed _my_ car because I ran over the top of _your_ car in traffic? No problem, the stainless steel can't be keyed.
Live on a dirt road? No problem. Just notice the tip jar between the seats.


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## OldBay (Apr 1, 2019)

jlittle said:


> Chevrolet Bolt EV driver here.
> 
> I am a lot of pax's first experience with a fully electric vehicle. Needless to say, people are impressed with instant acceleration, smoother deceleration with no brake, One pedal driving mode, operating cost at $.04/mile. I have been driving it for a year and a half.
> 
> ...


Only problem is that you are driving a new 35K car for rideshare. No. No. No.

In seven years they might be a great choice when you can get them < 10K.

IMO, they need to be a little bigger AND they need to have 300 mile range to reach critical mass.

Buying an electric car now is like sending mankind to another solar system. Whatever advances in propulsion happen in the future will ensure that later missions will reach the destination first; thus its foolish to send ppl now.

Electric cars will increase in range and sophistication to the point that Bolts and Model 3s will be ghetto electric cars in seven years. You arent saving any money with a 35K electric car now, so why buy? Youd be ahead of the game with a ten year old corolla.

Hybrid crossovers are the future. When you are 45mpg+, does it really matter how much gas costs? My hybrid is projected to need only 5K in gas over 100K miles. 35K - 5K = 30K. You can get a really nice hybrid for 30K.

IOW, a pure electric car only breaks even when its priced within 5K of a hybrid, within 10K of a gasser. And you have to drive 100K to recoup your up front investment. Math doesnt make sense until we can buy heavily depreciated OLD electric cars.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

I would love to transition to electric vehicles. As soon as I can be convinced it can help my bottom line in the long term, I will do it.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> It kinda blows my mind that neither UBER or LYFT have put a 'Green Vehicles Only' option into the passenger app. in most markets. I mean what would that be, about half a days worth of coding, and no cost to pax except maybe waiting for an extra minute? Especially in California and Portland, this seems like the lowest of low-hanging fruit.
> 
> has anyone in any market reading this ever seen or used LYFT's GREEN option in their app, or was it just vapourware announcement in February 2019?
> 
> Seattle Passengers, @Lissetti ?


An electric rideshare revolution sounds wonderful. However, the proponents of this need a reality check. There just isn't enough money in the business any more for it to happen - with even a humble Nissan Leaf 62kwh version costing an eye-watering 38 grand and this gig paying 40/50/60 cents per mile, the numbers just don't add up.

As far as fuel costs go, in CA in a Prius you get 530 miles for 40 bucks of gas: 7.5c per mile. In comparison PG&E charges 30 cents per KwH of electricity and from a 62 KwH Leaf you get 200 miles. To fill the battery the cost here on the extended tier, which is what it would be if you were charging your car every day, is 30 cents x 62 = $18.60 for 200 miles: 9.3 cents per mile. So no savings there; actually the opposite. While electric cars' motors have only one moving part and less maintenance, there would also concerns over battery life for drivers who do 50,000 - 80,000 miles per year or more.

Electric fleet is only going to happen if it is cheaper for drivers to run electric and we are way, way off that happening. For now and the foreseeable future the best bet is still going to be a sub-$5,000 beater Prius.



OldBay said:


> Only problem is that you are driving a new 35K car for rideshare. No. No. No.
> 
> In seven years they might be a great choice when you can get them < 10K.
> 
> ...


For once I agree with you.



Coastal_Cruiser said:


> But for those drivers that can afford payments we are very close to electric cars lasting long enough to where the payments could be completed before the car is driven into the ground. And that's at the high volume of miles we put on our rideshare cars.


I'm not into the idea of car payments. Whatever car I drive on Uber X and Lyft, my revenue will be the same. So I want as much as that revenue to stay in my bank account as possible, and I want none of if to go out as payments and definitely none to go out as interest on a loan. If I was leveraging someone else's money in order to make more revenue, then there'd be a case for going into debt and paying to do so. But that is not the case.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> be a sub-$5,000 beater Prius


Hard pass. Nice ride or forget about it.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SHalester said:


> Hard pass. Nice ride or forget about it.


'Tis true; they're not for everyone. Some people place having a nice car over maximising profit, which is also a valid choice. Horses for courses.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

The Gift of Fish said:


> As far as fuel costs go, in CA in a Prius you get 530 miles for 40 bucks of gas: 7.5c per mile. In comparison PG&E charges 30 cents per KwH of electricity and from a 62 KwH Leaf you get 200 miles. To fill the battery the cost here on the extended tier, which is what it would be if you were charging your car every day, is 30 cents x 62 = $18.60 for 200 miles: 9.3 cents per mile. So no savings there; actually the opposite. While electric cars' motors have only one moving part and less maintenance, there would also concerns over battery life for drivers who do 50,000 - 80,000 miles per year or more.


Yikes!! 30 cents per KwH, that sucks!!! Here in NC it's approx. 11 cents a KwH. Gas is also cheaper but it would probably make it something like 5 cents per mile for gas and 3.3 cents per mile for electric.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> 'Tis true; they're not for everyone


Full disclosure I own a precious Prius. But not for RS. Wife unit car.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

jlittle said:


> operating cost at $.04/mile. I have been driving it for a year and a half.


As with many "fuel is my only expense" drivers, you're ignoring the elephant in the room - depreciation.

A 2017 Bolt had an MSRP of $37,495. Take off $10k in California and federal rebates and that's $27,500, plus taxes and fees (charged on the original MSRP) of around 4 grand, so $31,500 out the door. After 3 years of full time rideshare the car would have at least 90,000 miles on it. KBB shows that the private sale value of a 90,000 mile 2017 Bolt now is $15,274.

That's a depreciation expense of (31,500 - 15,274) / 90,000 of 18 cents per mile. Plus your 4 cents to mile electricity cost = $.22 per mile. Operating cost so far of a Bolt (not including maintenance, repairs, tyres etc) is 5 1/2 times what you thought it was.

As a comparison, I ran my my beater 2007 Camry Hybrid for three years from Oct 2016 to Dec 2019 and covered 123,000 miles. I paid $3,900 for it. It was totalled in an accident and I settled with the insurance company for an inflated price, but if I had not had the accident and sold it then it would have been worth $2,500 at the end. Bolt's depreciation over three years of rideshare = $16,226. Beater Camry's depreciation over the same period: $1,400. That's a $13,726 savings.

Being a Toyota, over the three years the car needed no repairs. I paid $80 for a pair of front brake discs and pads. And 24 oil changes at $20 per time, so $480. Electric cars also use tyres, windshield wipers, car washes etc so they don't affect this comparison. My gas cost was 8 cents per mile. Your electricity cost is 4 cents per mile. Therefore, 4 cents per mile cost difference. 90,000 miles x 0.04 = $3,600. Total cost differential is therefore 13,726 - 80 - 480 - 3600 = $9,566. I know I'd rather have $9,566 in my bank account than have it go out to someone else's! In my case, since I don't have $30,000 to spend on a car, I would have to finance the EV. At 3% interest from my credit union, I would have paid around $3,000 in interest over those three years, bumping the total additional cost of the EV during this period up to an eye-watering $12,500! 

So:


> Once you calculate the cost of the car and subtract rebates and the savings from not buying gas, I've saved enough money to now equal the purchase price of a base model Toyota Corolla; and I'm still saving money.


No, you haven't saved the puchase price of a Corolla and no, you're not saving money. In comparison with the most efficient rideshare vehicle there is, old beater Toyota, you're paying out money hand over fist for your EV.

There's nothing wrong with this, of course. I'd love to have an electric vehicle. I think they're great. But I know what they cost, and I know that I would be paying a premium for one that I don't want to pay. Doing half-baked accounting and leaving out the real costs to arrive at false cost figures wouldn't convince me to buy one. It does convince many, though.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Depreciation is a non-cash expense. Saying for a friend.


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## Coastal_Cruiser (Oct 1, 2018)

Those are some good points Fish that add to the conversation. Yes, a beater for ridesharing is hard to beat. But to also add to the conversation is the cost of repairs, and the cost of a replacement car. The electrics other than the Nissan Leaf are showing great longevity, and low cost of repairs to boot. And although body repairs are ridiculously expense even the older Teslas are going for hundreds of thousands of miles. The one gottcha has been _some _battery replacements, but Tesla has covered the cost.

I am probably taking delivery on a Model Y in two years, a car that has been engineered with a million-mile power train. Based upon past performance, coupled with evolving battery tech, there is a fair chance the cars will go that long sans major powertrain repairs. Again, nothing against beaters, but these factors fold into the beater vs. EV argument.

BTW - in my admittedly rare case, I leased my Bolt so there has been zero depreciation. I make enough income driving two days a week to pay for everything to do with the car -including insurance, tires and the inevitable lease overage costs- as well as groceries for the week and meals out. Obviously not trying to pay rent/mortgage though. ;>


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## NicFit (Jan 18, 2020)

I want an electric car but it’s not an option for me, I can’t charge it where I live so it would be a pain to keep charged, though they do need more electrics on the road, I’m tired of gas cars and when I move I’ll get an electric, either a bolt or Tesla


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## ColumbusRides (Nov 10, 2018)

Yesterday, I saw a Nissan Leaf being charged with an extension cord at the entrance of a gas station He didn't have enough charge and he was stuck right at the entrance.


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## OldBay (Apr 1, 2019)

Coastal_Cruiser said:


> Those are some good points Fish that add to the conversation. Yes, a beater for ridesharing is hard to beat. But to also add to the conversation is the cost of repairs, and the cost of a replacement car. The electrics other than the Nissan Leaf are showing great longevity, and low cost of repairs to boot. And although body repairs are ridiculously expense even the older Teslas are going for hundreds of thousands of miles. The one gottcha has been _some _battery replacements, but Tesla has covered the cost.
> 
> I am probably taking delivery on a Model Y in two years, a car that has been engineered with a million-mile power train. Based upon past performance, coupled with evolving battery tech, there is a fair chance the cars will go that long sans major powertrain repairs. Again, nothing against beaters, but these factors fold into the beater vs. EV argument.
> 
> BTW - in my admittedly rare case, I leased my Bolt so there has been zero depreciation. I make enough income driving two days a week to pay for everything to do with the car -including insurance, tires and the inevitable lease overage costs- as well as groceries for the week and meals out. Obviously not trying to pay rent/mortgage though. ;>


Tesla Kool aid.


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