# Someone is organizing for RS Drivers UNION



## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

I met a guy who is employed as an organizer to form a UNION at Oakland international Airport. I don't know who is behind this but I like the idea of forming UNION. He told me that he was just now organizing for SF Area. May be there will be other assigned organizers for the whole CA State.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> I met a guy who is employed as an organizer to form a UNION at Oakland international Airport. I don't know who is behind this but I like the idea of forming UNION. He told me that he was just now organizing for SF Area. May be there will be other assigned organizers for the whole CA State.
> If you want to sign up for forming an Union effort,
> View attachment 420896


I like the idea but I'm actually thinking we might be fueling the losses too..


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## swathdiver (Apr 18, 2019)

What's the purpose of a union? To launder money to elect crooked politicians. No thanks, just say NO to Communism.


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

Ride share Drivers union?


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

swathdiver said:


> What's the purpose of a union? To launder money to elect crooked politicians. No thanks, just say NO to Communism.


At least, Drivers could have a power to fight back on false accusation and deactivation. To keep the job and hopefully to raise per minutes rate.
What is so bad about communism? When you are rich and you pay people to do your work, you don't want Communism. When you are not rich, get paid for the exchange for your efforts, powerless to fight injustice in your work environment, and Communism is good in a play.


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## Steven Ambrose (Sep 25, 2016)

swathdiver said:


> What's the purpose of a union? To launder money to elect crooked politicians. No thanks, just say NO to Communism.


Do you even know what communism is?



Wildgoose said:


> At least, Drivers could have a power to fight back on false accusation and deactivation. To keep the job and hopefully to raise per minutes rate.
> What is so bad about communism? When you are rich and you pay people to do your work, you don't want Communism. When you are not rich, get paid for the exchange of your efforts, powerless to fight injustice in your work environment, and Communism is good in a play.


Let's not confuse communism for capitalism.


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## TemptingFate (May 2, 2019)

A union of independent contractors is an unlawful monopoly or cartel. 
https://www.businessmanagementdaily...tractors-right-to-form-or-join-a-labor-union/


Cableguynoe said:


> Ride share Drivers union?
> 
> View attachment 420917


https://groveatlantic.com/book/a-confederacy-of-dunces/


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## Steven Ambrose (Sep 25, 2016)

TemptingFate said:


> A union of independent contractors is an unlawful monopoly or cartel.
> https://www.businessmanagementdaily...tractors-right-to-form-or-join-a-labor-union/


This does not appear to come from the Supreme Court, hence it is opened to challenges. Whether or not someone will take the time, energy, or financial reasoning, is up in the air.


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## GreatWhiteHope (Sep 18, 2018)

Wildgoose said:


> At least, Drivers could have a power to fight back on false accusation and deactivation. To keep the job and hopefully to raise per minutes rate.
> What is so bad about communism? When you are rich and you pay people to do your work, you don't want Communism. When you are not rich, get paid for the exchange for your efforts, powerless to fight injustice in your work environment, and Communism is good in a play.


I think you should go back to where ever the hell you came from

with that mentality
This is America


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## TemptingFate (May 2, 2019)

Steven Ambrose said:


> This does not appear to come from the Supreme Court, hence it is opened to challenges. Whether or not someone will take the time, energy, or financial reasoning, is up in the air.


This Supreme Court is not exactly friendly to workers or poor people so don't hold your breath.


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## UbaBrah (Oct 25, 2019)

Bro if you added "chase" to your username you'd be in the ballpark. You can't have a union of ICs.


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## losiglow (Dec 4, 2018)

Wildgoose said:


> At least, Drivers could have a power to fight back on false accusation and deactivation. To keep the job and hopefully to raise per minutes rate.
> What is so bad about communism? When you are rich and you pay people to do your work, you don't want Communism. When you are not rich, get paid for the exchange for your efforts, powerless to fight injustice in your work environment, and Communism is good in a play.


This is why Bernie has a chance at election; people don't understand what Communism, "Medicare for all" or Socialist Democrat even mean.


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## Steven Ambrose (Sep 25, 2016)

TemptingFate said:


> This Supreme Court is not exactly friendly to workers or poor people so don't hold your breath.


Exactly, but there is a process and the courts move so slow. It took them 15 years to figure out same sex marriage and 89 years to figure out segregation in schools.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

Just what we need, union dues: more money taken out of our already meager pay.


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## Steven Ambrose (Sep 25, 2016)

Mash Ghasem said:


> Just what we need, union dues: more money taken out of our already meager pay.


Unless we get upgraded to employees and the unions set the rates. That is why people are trying to fight this in some states. It really takes only one state to get involved in this, change ICs classification, and the rest may fall.


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## swathdiver (Apr 18, 2019)

Wildgoose said:


> What is so bad about communism?


In a socialist state, the workers exist to serve the state, the ruling class. A Statist government sees as their mission to control every aspect of your life as they believe that YOU are not smart enough to manage your own affairs. Are you smart enough to manage your own affairs?

Communism doesn't lift everyone up, it flattens everyone down, impoverishes everybody, save for the ruling class which is constantly eating itself for survival. Communism ignores the reality that men are sinners in a sin cursed world and endeavors to create a utopia by deceit and then by force of perfection. All those who stand in the way of this goal are destroyed.

If you are a reader, find out what it's really like:

The Dream We Lost - Fred Utley
Witness - Whittaker Chambers
Out of the Night - Jan Valtin

There are others, hundreds of others, the last one mentioned I recommend first, it should have been a movie as its thrilling.



Steven Ambrose said:


> Do you even know what communism is?


Absolutely! Frontwards and backwards. Been studying and experiencing its horrors for over thirty years.


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## GreatWhiteHope (Sep 18, 2018)

Steven Ambrose said:


> Exactly, but there is a process and the courts move so slow. It took them 15 years to figure out same sex marriage and 89 years to figure out segregation in schools.


Because that's not the courts job.



losiglow said:


> This is why Bernie has a chance at election; people don't understand what Communism, "Medicare for all" or Socialist Democrat even mean.


Sad but true


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

TemptingFate said:


> A union of independent contractors is an unlawful monopoly or cartel.
> https://www.businessmanagementdaily...tractors-right-to-form-or-join-a-labor-union/
> 
> https://groveatlantic.com/book/a-confederacy-of-dunces/


In California uber drivers have been classified as employees and not independent contractors.

I know, I know Uber is saying otherwise.



Mash Ghasem said:


> Just what we need, union dues: more money taken out of our already meager pay.


How much are union dues?


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## Steven Ambrose (Sep 25, 2016)

swathdiver said:


> In a socialist state, the workers exist to serve the state, the ruling class. A Statist government sees as their mission to control every aspect of your life as they believe that YOU are not smart enough to manage your own affairs. Are you smart enough to manage your own affairs?
> 
> Communism doesn't lift everyone up, it flattens everyone down, impoverishes everybody, save for the ruling class which is constantly eating itself for survival. Communism ignores the reality that men are sinners in a sin cursed world and endeavors to create a utopia by deceit and then by force of perfection. All those who stand in the way of this goal are destroyed.
> 
> ...


In what way? What specifically is communistic to you?


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## GreatWhiteHope (Sep 18, 2018)

observer said:


> In California uber drivers have been classified as employees and not independent contractors.
> 
> I know, I know Uber is saying otherwise.
> 
> ...


Illegal immigrants will form a union before Uber drivers


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## Steven Ambrose (Sep 25, 2016)

GreatWhiteHope said:


> Illegal immigrants will form a union before Uber drivers


How so?


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

GreatWhiteHope said:


> Illegal immigrants will form a union before Uber drivers


They may be the only ones with the gumption to form a union.

We Americans have been brainwashed to think unions are all bad.


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## GreatWhiteHope (Sep 18, 2018)

Steven Ambrose said:


> How so?


Kim Kardashian will be president before illegal immigrants form a union


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

GreatWhiteHope said:


> Kim Kardashian will be president before illegal immigrants form a union


If Trump could do it why not Kim?

Both are airheads with lots of diehard fans.


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## GreatWhiteHope (Sep 18, 2018)

The labor is near worthless and the labor supply for said work is infinity 

They’ll never form a union and even if they did —- you wouldn’t be able to get good rates because the only way to do that is to limit the driver supply


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## Lute Byrt (Feb 20, 2020)

Was it the guy from this article because if so it is unfortunately too late to still join...

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...axi-worker-network-dismantled-in-Paris-France


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## Steven Ambrose (Sep 25, 2016)

GreatWhiteHope said:


> Kim Kardashian will be president before illegal immigrants form a union


&#129325;&#129325;&#129325;&#129325;&#129325;&#129325;&#129325;&#129325;

You're funny.


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## Lute Byrt (Feb 20, 2020)

Initially I thought I was going to be reading another boring Uber article...


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

GreatWhiteHope said:


> The labor is near worthless and the labor supply for said work is infinity
> 
> They'll never form a union and even if they did -- you wouldn't be able to get good rates because the only way to do that is to limit the driver supply


True but Uber limiting driver supply is just a matter of time.


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## Steven Ambrose (Sep 25, 2016)

observer said:


> If Trump could do it why not Kim?
> 
> Both are airheads with lots of diehard fans.


What did Jill Roberts (Emma Roberts) say in Scream 4? "I don't need friends, I need fans". It is sort of a striking idea considering what you are stating.


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## GreatWhiteHope (Sep 18, 2018)

observer said:


> True but Uber limiting driver supply is just a matter of time.


my first job ever was at Pavilions they were unionized and that Union was able to negotiate starting pay at 10 CENTS above minimum wage!!!
$8.10 at the time

Uber and all these App gigs don't need to be absolute poverty wages 
But it'll always be work that is worth very little and that will never change

Just like how Illegal Mexicans won't be Unionizing farms in Oxnard

*actually there's one way 
If you live in LA and u want LA drivers to unionize you need to form a union and get everyone me on board
Some people don't wanna join? Break their legs, see how fast they join

That's how u get it done &#128076;&#128076;&#128076; same with illegals, how u gonna farm crops if all the workers have broken legs Guey?*


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

GreatWhiteHope said:


> my first job ever was at Pavilions they were unionized and that Union was able to negotiate starting pay at 10 CENTS above minimum wage!!!
> $8.10 at the time
> 
> Uber and all these App gigs don't need to be absolute poverty wages
> ...


You seem to know a lot of Mexican swear words...

Honestly, I was a Trump fan when he was doing the Apprentice. My kids and I couldn't wait till the night it aired. He lost all of us by the third season.


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## Lute Byrt (Feb 20, 2020)

I thought I already watched this episode....(Season 22 Episode 9) (Southpark)

https://southpark.cc.com/clips/plk1vp/workerconsumers-willing-to-box


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## GreatWhiteHope (Sep 18, 2018)

observer said:


> You seem to know a lot of Mexican swear words...
> 
> Honestly, I was a Trump fan when he was doing the Apprentice. My kids and I couldn't wait till the night it aired. He lost all of us by the third season.


really
Why?

I never watched the show

@observer thats because when you work with the Esse's 
Somos Los Esses 
Tu sabes wey ?

No mames wey always my favorite &#128514;


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

GreatWhiteHope said:


> really
> Why?
> 
> I never watched the show
> ...


After a while he just seemed like a bully.

We always liked watching "business" shows like the Apprentice and Shark Tank.

We still occasionally sit around and watch that type of shows on CNBC.

You were right the first time, Guey.


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

Two different ideologies.

You can aim to control those around you, bring them down, for the illusion of greener pastures

Or you can improve youself, have the initiative to improve yourself.


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## GreatWhiteHope (Sep 18, 2018)

observer said:


> After a while he just seemed like a bully.
> 
> We always liked watching "business" shows like the Apprentice and Shark Tank.
> 
> ...


Yo se Guey



doyousensehumor said:


> Two different ideologies.
> 
> You can aim to control those around you, bring them down, for the illusion of greener pastures
> 
> Or you can improve youself, have the initiative to improve yourself.


The Truthiest Truth that ever Truthed

@observer you and only you get me going on this ****ing rabbit holes 







doyousensehumor said:


> Two different ideologies.
> 
> You can aim to control those around you, bring them down, for the illusion of greener pastures
> 
> Or you can improve youself, have the initiative to improve yourself.


It's all your mentality

those that look inward seek to rely on themselves to overcome the pain of life, the struggles, the battles

and then there are those that want to flatten every Spike remove every danger in the world
After they're done with that they're still weak *****es &#129305;


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

observer said:


> How much are union dues?


It would depend on the union.
I've been getting bullied (so to say) for over a year by the union of my main job to join them for $45/mo.


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## Nina2 (Oct 6, 2018)

observer said:


> How much are union dues?


50 percent of your pay each month.


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

Nina2 said:


> 50 percent of your pay each month.


So very little


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## Demon (Dec 6, 2014)

swathdiver said:


> In a socialist state, the workers exist to serve the state, the ruling class. A Statist government sees as their mission to control every aspect of your life as they believe that YOU are not smart enough to manage your own affairs. Are you smart enough to manage your own affairs?
> 
> Communism doesn't lift everyone up, it flattens everyone down, impoverishes everybody, save for the ruling class which is constantly eating itself for survival. Communism ignores the reality that men are sinners in a sin cursed world and endeavors to create a utopia by deceit and then by force of perfection. All those who stand in the way of this goal are destroyed.
> 
> ...


You don't seem to have a grasp on the difference between communism & capitalism.


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## swathdiver (Apr 18, 2019)

Demon said:


> You don't seem to have a grasp on the difference between communism & capitalism.


Not so, I know Communism backwards and forwards. Curiously you say I know not the difference between the two when I only defined one and not the other.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Mash Ghasem said:


> It would depend on the union.
> I've been getting bullied (so to say) for over a year by the union of my main job to join them for $45/mo.


So, you make 20 bux an hour?


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## Steven Ambrose (Sep 25, 2016)

GreatWhiteHope said:


> Because that's not the courts job.
> 
> 
> Sad but true


Well, those two items became the courts' business.... and losing side of that again?


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## swathdiver (Apr 18, 2019)

Steven Ambrose said:


> In what way? What specifically is communistic to you?


What are you referring to, unions in general?


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

Cableguynoe said:


> Ride share Drivers union?


A RS Union will Benefit Drivers


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## UberAdrian (May 26, 2018)

Hahahahahaha WUT? You can’t unionize a bunch of business owners. That’s called a cartel. In fact Uber has already forced us into illegal collusion and price fixing. We need to be able to set our own prices to actually make this business legal.

Anyway this is a nonsense concept that only applies to employees. Even then it’s still nonsense.

We need more IC rights and freedoms not more employee benefits. I would never to do this job as an employee! I’m insubordinate and incapable of taking instructions or working with people unless I’m the leader.

Don’t ruin rideshare with this crazy employee stuff! There are so many jobs out there, go get one of them if you want to be an employee and leave RS alone!!


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)




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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

glad to see workers uniting in san francisco. i wonder what their approach will be in this new world of "gig" workers, we've already been dabbling in how to approach it, should be interesting.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

If you didn't fill out a W2, you are not an employee. No employee status, no union.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> If you didn't fill out a W2, you are not an employee. No employee status, no union.


Just a matter of time.

https://www.motherjones.com/food/20...ts-argument-that-contractors-arent-employees/


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> Just a matter of time.


a very long period of time. Stuck in courts and not until Uber is directed to by a Judge will it happen. AND, in calif. not all approx 200k will be made employees. 
And then those who wanted this will be very unhappy. Careful what one wishes for.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> a very long period of time. Stuck in courts and not until Uber is directed to by a Judge will it happen. AND, in calif. not all approx 200k will be made employees.
> And then those who wanted this will be very unhappy. Careful what one wishes for.


Those that have worked for gig companies will likely be on to some other job by then.

But gig companies will have to pay back pay and penalties to at very least January of this year, likely back three years.

All drivers should keep good records.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> , likely back three years.


very very unlikely. To Jan? Perhaps those drivers who do 40hrs a week. The cases are in the court and that time isn't used against who loses. 
Look no farther than NY to see what 'might' happen once everything is settled.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> very very unlikely. To Jan? Perhaps those drivers who do 40hrs a week. The cases are in the court and that time isn't used against who loses.
> Look no farther than NY to see what 'might' happen once everything is settled.


January, possibly back up to three years, most likely three years. The clock doesn't stop because they filed a lawsuit.

Nope, anyone that was a driver wether they worked five hours or ten thousand hours. Gig companies will have to go back and calculate how many hours drivers were on app.

ALL HOURS ON APP, not just with a passenger. Drivers must have made at least minimum the full time they were logged on.

ALL DRIVER COSTS, including fuel, maintenance, oil changes etc.

ALL MISSED WAGES, including lunch periods and breaks.

New York drivers is like comparing apples to oranges.

New York drivers are still considered independent contractors not employees.

Things could and most likely will also change in New York and other states.


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

observer said:


> January, possibly back up to three years, most likely three years. The clock doesn't stop because they filed a lawsuit.
> 
> Nope, anyone that was a driver wether they worked five hours or ten thousand hours. Gig companies will have to go back and calculate how many hours drivers were on app.
> 
> ...


What you're describing is similar to what pizza delivery drivers get


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> most likely three years


my opinion, not happening. From Jan. Also not happening as that assume all the court cases and the pending change to AB5 and the pending signature and then vote by CAlif votes ALL fail.
This isn't going to be pay day for drivers in Calif; so don't budget for it. Treat is as a possible tip.......way way way in the future.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

I forgot state mandated sick days, three per year. 

Of course the state will want their state taxes as well.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> Of course the state will want their state taxes as well.


W2. Details matter. When we get one, then you can count your money. Just know paying taxes will be much much more than whatever increase there is. Chop 25-30% from your net.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> my opinion, not happening. From Jan. Also not happening as that assume all the court cases and the pending change to AB5 and the pending signature and then vote by CAlif votes ALL fail.
> This isn't going to be pay day for drivers in Calif; so don't budget for it. Treat is as a possible tip.......way way way in the future.


In California labor claims can only go back three years.

So, if Uber loses the iniative and drivers are declared employees, I see no reason for drivers not to claim they were employees all along and fight back the full three years.

Uber can minimize the cost by hiring half the drivers now and running out the clock three years.

If they have 300,000 drivers now and they cut back to 150,000 drivers in three years they will have effectively cut their pay out by half.

I don't know if drivers that fell off during the time can sue Uber individually or as a class action for time previous to the three years.



SHalester said:


> W2. Details matter. When we get one, then you can count your money. Just know paying taxes will be much much more than whatever increase there is. Chop 25-30% from your net.


Drivers should already be chopping off more than 25-30% of their net because they should be paying both their share and the employers share of taxes.

In reality drivers could make a claim for Ubers share of the taxes.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> In California labor claims can only go back three years.


you hold on to that. Each driver would need to sue; AB5 has no verbiage that says one can go back 3 years.

As I said there are a bunch of things percolating that will kill AB5. The legislature might fix it. Enough sigs and then voters decide. Plus all the court cases already in progress. Years away.

Until then I enjoy the toys AB5 brought to us so far. Anything else positive would be great. BUT as I said; very few know here what being an employee actually means. It will not be all honey and rainbows. There will be negatives, guaranteed.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> you hold on to that. Each driver would need to sue; AB5 has no verbiage that says one can go back 3 years.
> 
> As I said there are a bunch of things percolating that will kill AB5. The legislature might fix it. Enough sigs and then voters decide. Plus all the court cases already in progress. Years away.
> 
> Until then I enjoy the toys AB5 brought to us so far. Anything else positive would be great. BUT as I said; very few know here what being an employee actually means. It will not be all honey and rainbows. There will be negatives, guaranteed.


I never said AB5 had any such verbiage.

The three year rule is a California State rule and looking at it now may actually allow four years.

https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToFileWageClaim.htm
Temporary toys that Uber can revoke at any minute at its sole discretion.

I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of members have been employees at some time in their life.


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

observer said:


> So, if Uber loses the iniative and drivers are declared employees, I see no reason for drivers not to claim they were employees all along and fight back the full three years.


They can't go back in time though. AB5 started this year didn't it? Haven't others tried sueing for not being classified as employees already before AB5, nothing significant happened.



observer said:


> Uber can minimize the cost by hiring half the drivers now and running out the clock three years.
> 
> If they have 300,000 drivers now and they cut back to 150,000 drivers in three years they will have effectively cut their pay out by half.


The problem with that is it screws with the supply-demand-price relationship.

You cut the supply in half, increase the expences, you're going raise prices to the pax in order to lessen the demand.

Then with a smaller fleet, efficency goes way down. While the drivers would become paid whether or not the passenger is in the vehicle, the average deadhead miles between fares, goes way up. This in itself, gets passed on to the Rider.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> Temporary toys that Uber can revoke at any minute at its sole discretion


they can do that now. and after, if we are employees. And many 'members' who haven't had a long term W2 job really don't understand what exactly it means to be an official employee. A bunch believe nothing will change when they become employees, but get higher pay, some benefits etc. Rarely is the other side of the coin of being an employee is mentioned. Control. Supervision. Schedule. Pay all taxes.

Guess we will find out.....in years, who is more right or better at wild speculation. aye?


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

doyousensehumor said:


> They can't go back in time though. AB5 started this year didn't it? Haven't others tried sueing for not being classified as employees already before AB5, nothing significant happened.
> 
> The problem with that is it screws with the supply-demand-price relationship.
> 
> ...


I don't know.

If it was me I'd sue for the full 3-4 years.

If I'm an employee as of January first of this year and Uber was missclassifying me as an independent contractor, I think I could make a very good argument that I've been an employee all this time and Uber is the one that missclassified me.

I was just using half as an example. In another thread @Cableguynoe mentioned there were 230 drivers sitting at the airport lot. Do you think Uber would pay them to sit around? Not likely.

Uber would and probably already knows approximately how many drivers it needs to meet demand.


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

observer said:


> I was just using half as an example. In another thread @Cableguynoe mentioned there were 230 drivers sitting at the airport lot.


Damn bro, you pulling my quotes from 2017?

You're not wrong in your point but it's been some time since I even looked at what an airport queue looks like.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> they can do that now. and after, if we are employees. And many 'members' who haven't had a long term W2 job really don't understand what exactly it means to be an official employee. A bunch believe nothing will change when they become employees, but get higher pay, some benefits etc. Rarely is the other side of the coin of being an employee is mentioned. Control. Supervision. Schedule. Pay all taxes.
> 
> Guess we will find out.....in years, who is more right or better at wild speculation. aye?


Yupp a lot of speculation except my speculation is based on what I have learned over the years about California law.

Everything I have written is based on truth that can be backed up.

Control, supervision, schedule that's already mostly done by Uber. Taxes, well like I said earlier, drivers should already be paying taxes on income and are paying Ubers share as well.



Cableguynoe said:


> Damn bro, you pulling my quotes from 2017?
> 
> You're not wrong in your point but it's been some time since I even looked at what an airport queue looks like.


Lol was it 2017??

Somebody must have resurrected an old thread. But the gist of it remains the same.


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## Tony73 (Oct 12, 2016)

Drivers drove themselves to poverty. All you had to do was stop working for a day or two and then demand change. Have some balls!


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> Control, supervision, schedule that's already mostly done by Uber.


is it ok if I disagree with that? my experience of 4 decades of being an employee and 30yrs as a manager. What control Uber has is passive at best. One can always go offline. In real life that isn't possible; can't just tell the boss 'I'm leaving for the day'. Well, one could if they were salaried, but that is another thread. 
Schedule? Can't agree with that either. A driver can go offline at anytime for any reason. Ditto for going online. In the real world you go to work with a schedule that isn't set by you; and if you don't show up.....fired.... 
I could go on and on with control and supervision (what supervision?) but this subject has been hashed endlessly here already, Nothing new has been posted in quite a while.
So, I enjoy the toys we have in Calif and for me it did exactly what Uber intended. And based on what drivers in calif who don't even know this forum exists, all agree they are happier.

I"m not worried.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> is it ok if I disagree with that? my experience of 4 decades of being an employee and 30yrs as a manager. What control Uber has is passive at best. One can always go offline. In real life that isn't possible; can't just tell the boss 'I'm leaving for the day'. Well, one could if they were salaried, but that is another thread.
> Schedule? Can't agree with that either. A driver can go offline at anytime for any reason. Ditto for going online. In the real world you go to work with a schedule that isn't set by you; and if you don't show up.....fired....
> I could go on and on with control and supervision (what supervision?) but this subject has been hashed endlessly here already, Nothing new has been posted in quite a while.
> So, I enjoy the toys we have in Calif and for me it did exactly what Uber intended. And based on what drivers in calif who don't even know this forum exists, all agree they are happier.
> ...


Absolutely, we can disagree. I'm not always right and I enjoy our back and forths. Keeps my brain active and dementia at bay.

Not to nitpick  but as a manager of 30 years you already must have known that what I wrote was true.

Ok, ok I'm nitpicking.

Something else I forgot, drivers that were on app for more than 8 hours in a day or forty hours in a week should be entitled to overtime pay.

Uber would have to go back 3-4 years and recalculate the hours to make sure they were paid at least time and a half on those hours.


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

See the idea behind getting driver's to be employees, is supposed to help the poor

In reality it's going to hurt the poor more

Uber is a great fall back job. A temporary job it's also a good job for those with not much on a resume. Or those who have to work 80 hours a week to make ends week now they will be capped because of overtime. Part-timers that have a difficult schedule won't be able to do it. The Working Poor who use the service, will be paying much more higher prices. And if they can't afford that they still have to resort to more expensive options.

The demand for rides spikes different times a day and days a week. This means many drivers will be scheduled for small-time blocks. They wouldn't be given a choice. Scheduling through an employer isn't going to be versatile at all to the driver. So the company we're just give them a small schedule if he has special time constraints. Further lower lowering income.

Then picture what happens during a recession. This means less demand cuz customers have less money to spend. More potential drivers would be denied employment because they already have too many drivers. So instead of making a little bit of money, they won't have this temp job option



observer said:


> Something else I forgot, drivers that were on app for more than 8 hours in a day or forty hours in a week should be entitled to overtime pay.


There would be absolutely no overtime unless there was a sudden spike of demand.


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

You guys are brainwashed and totally wrong about communism. When you see and say things about communist countries, your are absolutely correct. I don't like people who called themselves communists running things are unacceptable. They are at extreme side of communism as same as extreme Islamic.
I just like the basic concept of communism but I don't agree on how a communist should run a country. It is very different. But I am so sure that if there is no communist, Rich enterprise organizations will not honor workers benefits and retirements. That is for sure. Enterprise board of directors are people who want to make Maximum profit and want to give workers as low as they could bearly survive. Because of existing of communism ideology, they couldn't run things as they wish. That's the beauty. Actually, communism exactly doesn't mean business are being run by states and share profit among people but extreme communist believes in that way.
We are very familiar with Uber pay rate. So I would give example on it. Thinks all Uber drivers were a group of worker. Uber enterprise was an rich guy. Uber actually wants to pay as low as drivers could survive. But Uber can't do that. There are state laws and AB5 came in play and Uber should pay more than they wished to. Who made those state laws and AB5. People who were elected by people. They need to look over the citizens who voted for them to get elected. This is very similar with a thin layer of communism. If 100% pure capitalist were running USA, these elected people would be elected by enterprises but not by citizen. Workers who wants benefit from a job is also same as a thin communist because he is asking to share profit from Enterprise as benefit. Free medicare is also asking to share profit to people so it is also a communism ideology. So what is bad thing about it. It is good for every body but rich don't like it because by doing that, they will be losing their maximum profits. Are we losing anything on that? Answer is No. Who are helping rich people more getting richer. Anser is people. So people asking to share some of profit as benefits is not an nut idea.


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## MiamiKid (May 24, 2016)

Wildgoose said:


> At least, Drivers could have a power to fight back on false accusation and deactivation. To keep the job and hopefully to raise per minutes rate.
> What is so bad about communism? When you are rich and you pay people to do your work, you don't want Communism. When you are not rich, get paid for the exchange for your efforts, powerless to fight injustice in your work environment, and Communism is good in a play.


Communism has never worked. It is pure EVIL.

DEATH TO COMMUNISM 
&#129354;&#129354;&#129354;&#129354;&#129354;


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

doyousensehumor said:


> See the idea behind getting driver's to be employees, is supposed to help the poor
> 
> In reality it's going to hurt the poor more
> 
> ...


Agreed, Uber will likely cut all hours to 29 max per week.

On the overtime, I meant Uber would have to go back the 3-4 years and recalculate every drivers hours and back pay for those that didn't get at least minimum wage for the 8/40 and overtime for those that worked more hours.


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## Polomarko (Dec 20, 2016)

swathdiver said:


> What's the purpose of a union? To launder money to elect crooked politicians. No thanks, just say NO to Communism.


Purpose of the Union is: Do not let corporation to cheat money from people . Provide benefits for people which are guaranteed by Law. Your grandparents were smarter than you. They fought for there rights 8+8+8 long time ago.
Because of Union supretion today you make les money than your grandparents.



MiamiKid said:


> Communism has never worked. It is pure EVIL.
> 
> DEATH TO COMMUNISM
> &#129354;&#129354;&#129354;&#129354;&#129354;


You mean China



Wildgoose said:


> I met a guy who is employed as an organizer to form a UNION at Oakland international Airport. I don't know who is behind this but I like the idea of forming UNION. He told me that he was just now organizing for SF Area. May be there will be other assigned organizers for the whole CA State.
> If you want to sign up for forming an Union effort, You can contact him and give him your Names, Phone numbers and email addresses. Name could be First name and Full Last name or Last name initial. If you want his contact number, Please PM me. I don't want to post his contact information in any web even though he agreed for it.
> View attachment 420896


Not someone this Union already have more than 11000 people who signed up! It is U/L nightmare more than anything else.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Union will not work unless everyone joins. As long as there are ants to scab the union is toothless. A strike does no good when there are a thousand non union workers waiting in the wings to take the job.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

observer said:


> So, you make 20 bux an hour?


How do you figure that?


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

Kevin Kargel said:


> Union will not work unless everyone joins. As long as there are ants to scab the union is toothless. A strike does no good when there are a thousand non union workers waiting in the wings to take the job.


the way it would work is that, if successful, driving uber would be a union job in the san francisco region, end of story. you want to drive in san francisco you pay union dues and reap the benefits of working a union job. the dues should be a fraction of what you get in return. there would be no such thing as a non union U/L driver, get it? that's why they are petitioning atm.

the diffference with unionizing these new technologically driven jobs is that there would need to be government enforcement to make them comply as there is no physical location one must go to in order to work. it's over the airwaves we get our work, so we need government to step in, but the negotiations can be directly between the union collective and the corporation.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Mash Ghasem said:


> How do you figure that?


Just a guess.


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## MasterAbsher (Oct 16, 2019)

Unions are nothing more than legalized extortion


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

doyousensehumor said:


> Uber is a great fall back job.


actually, RS is a great job for those of who have retired and we really only do it for the 'time' and 'schedule'. A big junk of current drivers are retired or semi-retired. 
I could never do RS if I depended on the income to pay 'bills'. And never could do it full time; yikes. Spring chicken I ain't.


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## Diamondraider (Mar 13, 2017)

Nina2 said:


> 50 percent of your pay each month.


And it increases as Uber cuts pay.


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## Phila-mena (Feb 18, 2020)

If “y’all” are talking about Communism and Capitalism like you’re experts...can someone please explain the difference from Communism and Capitalism AND Socialism?? Im asking coz Ive lived in 3 countries and have experienced each one...I want to hear the BS that will come out of one your mouths - especially those that have never lived outside their state...Just a hint to help you out; The Soviet was extreme Communism and the US is considered extreme Capitalism...
In a nuts shell ; Please don’t provide responses that support Pax who think Rideshare drivers are mostly uneducated...


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

got a p said:


> the way it would work is that, if successful, driving uber would be a union job in the san francisco region, end of story. you want to drive in san francisco you pay union dues and reap the benefits of working a union job. the dues should be a fraction of what you get in return. there would be no such thing as a non union U/L driver, get it? that's why they are petitioning atm.
> 
> the diffference with unionizing these new technologically driven jobs is that there would need to be government enforcement to make them comply as there is no physical location one must go to in order to work. it's over the airwaves we get our work, so we need government to step in, but the negotiations can be directly between the union collective and the corporation.
> 
> View attachment 421249


Not happening in the near future. As mentioned at nauseam on UP, Independent Contractors can not legally unionize. It's price fixing, racketeering, and illegal.

Step 1, get AB5 working where Uber/Lyft actually recognize you as an employee. 
Step 2 - You fill out a W-2, become an employee of Uber/Lyft
Step 3 - Unionize

Or

Get the US Federal Government to update the laws concerning IC and Unionizing.

Good luck with Step 1, that is no where near close to happening from the sounds of it.



observer said:


> If they have 300,000 drivers now and they cut back to 150,000 drivers in three years they will have effectively cut their pay out by half.


LOL ... UP.NET Explodes with new posts as 150,000 drivers get AXED..... "I was deactivated for NO REASON!".....


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## swathdiver (Apr 18, 2019)

Polomarko said:


> Purpose of the Union is: Do not let corporation to cheat money from people .


Well, that's the difference between us. You do not believe in freedom and free enterprise as I do.

If a man is not happy with his wages or treatment at work, he can take his private property (labor and intellect) elsewhere. If a man was defrauded by his employer, there is already a remedy for that through the courts.

I reject your premise anyway, a union exists to extort and launder money to elect politicans that will enact Communism's utopian agenda. They've been at it like this for over a hundred years, nothing has changed. The workers are but pawns.


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

i was in a union and i was an independent contractor. it was the screen actors guild and they guaranteed your pay floor for 2% or $50 a quarter. not a bad deal at all, and i didn't even take advantage of the health care, credit union etc...like my sister did. she was in it since she was a kid and thanks to the union she made enough money to pay for college BEFORE she attended - no need for government assistance.

so in response to "_you have to be an employee to have a union_" i call bs.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

DriverMark said:


> Not happening in the near future. As mentioned at nauseam on UP, Independent Contractors can not legally unionize. It's price fixing, racketeering, and illegal.
> 
> Step 1, get AB5 working where Uber/Lyft actually recognize you as an employee.
> Step 2 - You fill out a W-2, become an employee of Uber/Lyft
> ...


If you read the throttling threads, drivers are already in essence being axed.

Slowly but surely they are being deactivated by not being given work for making the "business decision" of rejecting unprofitable rides.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

got a p said:


> so in response to "_you have to be an employee to have a union_" i call bs.


Maybe. But a union can not be formed unless majority of 'drivers' voted for it. THAT won't happen.


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## Poopy54 (Sep 6, 2016)

Wildgoose said:


> At least, Drivers could have a power to fight back on false accusation and deactivation. To keep the job and hopefully to raise per minutes rate.
> What is so bad about communism? When you are rich and you pay people to do your work, you don't want Communism. When you are not rich, get paid for the exchange for your efforts, powerless to fight injustice in your work environment, and Communism is good in a play.


Another Bernie bro


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

observer said:


> If you read the throttling threads, drivers are already in essence being axed.
> 
> Slowly but surely they are being deactivated by not being given work for making the "business decision" of rejecting unprofitable rides.


Yea, that certainly is an issue. I've worked UberPro into my daily regiment, and I'm not in CA. But, it's certainly a concern that Uber would implement such tactics across the board for all drivers.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

DriverMark said:


> Yea, that certainly is an issue. I've worked UberPro into my daily regiment, and I'm not in CA. But, it's certainly a concern that Uber would implement such tactics across the board for all drivers.


I think Uber is preparing now for the likelihood that eventually drivers will be declared employees in all states.

They are squeezing out all drivers now by giving those that decline less work. Before they didn't care about having an oversupply of drivers everywhere because they weren't paying for time without a pax.

Drivers that don't work will quit and move on to something else or take unprofitable rides.

So much for drivers making their own decisions.


By doing so now Uber is actually becoming more efficient.

It uses less drivers.
It creates less smog.
It creates less congestion.
It reduces its future liability for back pay.

It still picks up the same amount of cars.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

observer said:


> Just a guess.


$45 is their maximum monthly fee.


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## Polomarko (Dec 20, 2016)

swathdiver said:


> Well, that's the difference between us. You do not believe in freedom and free enterprise as I do.
> 
> If a man is not happy with his wages or treatment at work, he can take his private property (labor and intellect) elsewhere. If a man was defrauded by his employer, there is already a remedy for that through the courts.
> 
> I reject your premise anyway, a union exists to extort and launder money to elect politicans that will enact Communism's utopian agenda. They've been at it like this for over a hundred years, nothing has changed. The workers are but pawns.


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to looooooose! You live in capital dictatorship and you think you free!
It is just your imagination,


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## IR12 (Nov 11, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> I met a guy who is employed as an organizer to form a UNION at Oakland international Airport. I don't know who is behind this but I like the idea of forming UNION. He told me that he was just now organizing for SF Area. May be there will be other assigned organizers for the whole CA State.
> 
> View attachment 420896


&#128164;&#128164;&#128164;&#128164;&#128164;&#128164;&#128164;&#128164;&#128164;&#128164;


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Of course you realize that the only way a union can work even in California is if Lyft voluntarily enters in to an agreement with the union. You will *never* get enough drivers to agree to stop driving to put *any* pressure on Lyft to enter negotiations. Lyft cannot be forced to recognize a union by any other means than a strike. If you have a few thousand immigrant scabs willing to work for Lyft terms then Lyft will never go to the bargaining table.



got a p said:


> the way it would work is that, if successful, driving uber would be a union job in the san francisco region, end of story. you want to drive in san francisco you pay union dues and reap the benefits of working a union job. the dues should be a fraction of what you get in return. there would be no such thing as a non union U/L driver, get it? that's why they are petitioning atm.
> 
> the diffference with unionizing these new technologically driven jobs is that there would need to be government enforcement to make them comply as there is no physical location one must go to in order to work. it's over the airwaves we get our work, so we need government to step in, but the negotiations can be directly between the union collective and the corporation.
> 
> View attachment 421249


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

could just be san francisco..


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## Wolfgang Faust (Aug 2, 2018)

Wildgoose said:


> At least, Drivers could have a power to fight back on false accusation and deactivation. To keep the job and hopefully to raise per minutes rate.
> What is so bad about communism? When you are rich and you pay people to do your work, you don't want Communism. When you are not rich, get paid for the exchange for your efforts, powerless to fight injustice in your work environment, and Communism is good in a play.


Wow.
Take a seat.


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## hooj (Aug 18, 2018)

swathdiver said:


> What's the purpose of a union? To launder money to elect crooked politicians. No thanks, just say NO to Communism.


&#128514; &#128518; &#128514;

Someone didn't read up on what communism actually is. There are no unions in a communist system! &#128514;


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

Gig Workers & Ride Share Drivers United are both heading in the direction of forming a Union. 
Though well written, this letter is to the S.F. Board of Supervisors asking for their support of a Union. This is a bit premature. 
More then likely the drivers will join with a current organized Union. A new one is not going to be formed. Now a driver will have weekly dues on top of their other expenses.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Mash Ghasem said:


> $45 is their maximum monthly fee.


Yea, I know, you already wrote that.

Generally speaking and from what I remember when I was a union member, dues are the equivalent of 2 and a half hours of pay per month.

In my case, I paid 25 bux a month and made ten bux an hour.

Which at the time was three times the minimum wage.

So I paid 25 bux and made 1,600. If the job had been nonunion the pay would have been considerably less.

Plus medical benefits.

Seems like a good trade off to me.

In my opinion and I realize it is up to you and your financial situation I would pay the 45 bux a month. You are most likely recieving higher pay and benefits that were paid for with previous union members dues.


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

observer said:


> I think Uber is preparing now for the likelihood that eventually drivers will be declared employees in all states.
> 
> They are squeezing out all drivers now by giving those that decline less work. Before they didn't care about having an oversupply of drivers everywhere because they weren't paying for time without a pax.
> 
> ...


Drivers are making their own decisions at least in CA. They see a ride they don't like they don't take it. Those who are proud that they only have 10% acceptance rates will be the ones that leave first because they chose to only take a few rides and cancel everything else.

Uber/Lyft are under no obligation to give those drivers all the best rides.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Fusion_LUser said:


> Drivers are making their own decisions at least in CA. They see a ride they don't like they don't take it. Those who are proud that they only have 10% acceptance rates will be the ones that leave first because they chose to only take a few rides and cancel everything else.
> 
> Uber/Lyft are under no obligation to give those drivers all the best rides.


Since when do Uber/Lyft do anything that they are obligated to do?


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## swathdiver (Apr 18, 2019)

Polomarko said:


> Freedom is just another word for nothing left to looooooose! You live in capital dictatorship and you think you free!
> It is just your imagination,


No, I live in Realville. America's economic system is based upon Free Enterprise but it far from perfect or being fully free as it is governed by imperfect people.

Would you rather be a slave to Free Enterprise or a slave to Communism?


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

observer said:


> Since when do Uber/Lyft do anything that they are obligated to do?


Well for starters Uber/Lyft do send rides to drivers who constantly refuse to accept and complete.


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## swathdiver (Apr 18, 2019)

hooj said:


> Someone didn't read up on what communism actually is. There are no unions in a communist system!


That's right, it's just a means to an end. I'm fully versed on what Communism is and is not.


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## hooj (Aug 18, 2018)

swathdiver said:


> That's right, it's just a means to an end. I'm fully versed on what Communism is and is not.


With unions and communism going hand in hand?

Doubtful.


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## swathdiver (Apr 18, 2019)

hooj said:


> With unions and communism going hand in hand?
> 
> Doubtful.


My goodness, you have to ignore an awful lot of history to doubt that!


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

I just received a message to sign up a petition which is demanding to improve SFO bathroom needs. I am not using SFO parking lot but I think this is good for drivers. So I did sign up for you guys who wants to do things individually. 





















``


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## PoorAssUberDriver (Jan 12, 2020)

Steven Ambrose said:


> Unless we get upgraded to employees and the unions set the rates. That is why people are trying to fight this in some states. It really takes only one state to get involved in this, change ICs classification, and the rest may fall.


Lol, or RS will just pull out of California. Then everyone will have to get a real job. You know, like the ones that require a skill?


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

PoorAssUberDriver said:


> Then everyone will have to get a real job.


no, not everyone. -o:


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

https://qz.com/1809297/regulators-a...g-for-the-gig-economy/?utm_source=google-news


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/04/uber-driver-reclassified-as-employee-in-france/amp/
Matter of time.


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