# HIDDEN UBER PYRAMID SCHEME??? Hmmm



## gb21 (Dec 6, 2014)

I've thought about this and really wonder. What I'm saying below is based on my experiences and opinion only. But could UBER possibly have a hidden pyramid set up? Bare with me, but I'll make an interesting comparison.

If you've ever seen a true sales pyramid scheme, like pedaling or soliciting a product.....what they do is exaggerate or mislead in advertising to get you in the door. You ever notice that most times these ads say "No Experience Necessary?" Right, because they need as many people as possible, and can't afford to weed out anyone. In those situations, they hire in bulk, and while you're there, they continue to hire in bulk. Why? Because as they get new people in, they know the new hires will eventually see that it isn't really for a "Management" position, or whatever they advertised. Once the new people catch on to the fact that now their selling a product, pedaling/soliciting illegally, etc. they then quit. Through this they are labeled as Independent Contractors and the alleged business has no ties or liability to them. A small % of them will seem to have some success, by default in the numbers game and law of averages. But most will fail. It isn't set up for them to really make out. It's set up for the company and it's front line employees at each location to succeed. KEY: They are mainly dependant on new employees first few weeks. The new hires work until they realize what they got in to. The company squeezes what they can out of them during that time before they realize, investigate, then quit....all the while, heavy advertising brings in another round of people constantly. The cycle keeps repeating itself. Those are just some of the issues.

Lets look at UBER. As I explain this, keep in mind what I said above. They advertise "X" amount of $$$ can be made a week, not telling you all of the other costs you'll have. You also have no way of knowing about fare decreases, saturation, $1 Rider fees, huge insurance liability/gaps, tax issues, illegal operation, etc. On the surface, it looks straight forward. We see them advertise constantly in large numbers. They barge into cities disregarding laws and officials, and will purposely operate illegally. *UBER's KEY:* *The core of their business is based on new hire start up, and operating as illegal as they'll be allowed.* Why? Think about it. They know if they follow the rules in the beginning, they cannot make nearly as much as they want initially. It's all about them only. Like the scheme above, instead of soliciting/pedaling product illegally, they'd have to pay for proper licensing and regulation on the front. Also, not to be forgotten, the government would then have ties to them. Why is that huge? The government would then be able to keep a close eye on them, and this includes fairness to there employees. Meaning they'd have to make sure they give the right insurance, or cover us tax wise based on what we're doing, etc. These are things that right now, they can manipulate their way out of (saying they can't cover us in accidents, or evading their connection to us tax wise, or even other expenses they should be responsible for).

They know once new drivers realize all of the issues that most will quit. This is partially why they advertise 3-4 times a day. This is why they barge in. It's a "must have." They figure, get in while they can, even if illegal, and collect the $$$ until they are forced out, or if allowed to stay, continue the cycle I described. Of course they will allow They care about employees being "partners?" They could've fooled me. They know if they're operating illegal, the drivers will experience headaches from authorities. But they do it anyway. Me, I wouldn't want my employees going through that. What good company sits well with the fact that they have high turnover? At my main job and I'm sure most others, people get fired for that. They put drivers and riders in danger with the alleged proper insurance. They over saturate, leaving drivers in a helpless situation. On and on. This should bring up red flags. It is not surprising that there are other loop holes they leave. Whether it's insurance, or anything else, their goal is to make as much money as they can, and pay out the least they can, along with avoiding other charges the government may inflict on them for operating fairly. Yes, all businesses want this ratio, but most do it in a way that shows support for all involved, so that everyone shares in the growth. Businesses who truly care about doing the right thing with the law and employees, will deal with whatever they have to with the government, for their sake and the employees.

I see all the time where people say "well quit" or "UBER isn't forcing you".......and on and on. What is overlooked is that honest people try to go into it and give the chance that the business is honest and fair. Let's not forget, a lot of people go home to their families claiming the "great" opportunity job they got, and talk it up. Then, when they began to realize, now it's embarrassing. Remember the pedaling example I gave you? So now you have to explain why that Management position is actually a pedaling/soliciting position, and the money isn't there, and you could be arrested or fined. It's the similar with UBER. Some people make big decisions based on giving that credit that the truth is being told. So quitting isn't so black and white, especially if you have a lot tied into it, and felt you've been mislead. Being able to quit is no excuse for a business to be dishonest with employees.

I will say, the numbers game I spoke of in the pyramid example brings up the only exception: In the numbers game you are bound to have some people succeed. If you drive in one of the few markets where the demand keeps up with the drivers, or, if you are in a market that is newer and not over saturated........yet, or even lucked out and have the people who operate your market actually do things a bit better, some will succeed. Can you make some $$? Yes. But more so only if you are part time. Although I can tell you as a part timer for Uber, even my $$$ diminished significantly and part timers will eventually feel the pinch in your market, if they haven't yet. The overall majority will suffer though.

Even some people comment that it'll balance out in the long run, then the drivers who held on will eventually make out. I'm not sure about that. The "cycle" I described will always continue. It must. Remember, UBER saying it wanted riders across the world to only be within minutes of pickup at all times? That takes many drivers at once to accomplish. Meaning, they MUST keep advertising because of the turnover. The balance some people assume will come, more than likely will not happen. Even worse, even if UBER died off because of this in certain areas, or completely, their $$$ is already made.


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## John_in_kc (Sep 30, 2014)

hmm... Uber started working with Kansas city officials before their first ride, have been in negotiations for a revamped livery code for the city, and have put in place a decent insurance program for Kansas City drivers.

Part timers are netting $100-$400 a week. They just added UberXL and have nice social get togethers for drivers etc, always have an open door policy, quick to respond to emails and you can meet them in person during their open office hours.

I understand that there are negatives to this venture (like any business) but tinfoil is on too tight in this place sometimes.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

John_in_kc said:


> hmm... Uber started working with Kansas city officials before their first ride, have been in negotiations for a revamped livery code for the city, and have put in place a decent insurance program for Kansas City drivers.
> 
> Part timers are netting $100-$400 a week. They just added UberXL and have nice social get togethers for drivers etc, always have an open door policy, quick to respond to emails and you can meet them in person during their open office hours.
> 
> I understand that there are negatives to this venture (like any business) but tinfoil is on too tight in this place sometimes.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Take this from a guy that has helped make a few cab company owners rich. What happens if you get a few customers that for no fault of your own damage your score enough that uber deactivates you ? It's a few on uber upper echelons and its millions driving how come drivers have cero leverage , just a friendly reminder


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## grUBBER (Sep 11, 2014)

MLMs survive on recruiting new members and not so much on selling the product.

It's true, that new drivers get over invested in the business they can't successfully run and get burned, but it's a stretch to say that uber doesn't have a product people pay for no matter who offers it.

The way uber runs business could be changed, but how is it different from let's say Subway sandwich franchise? 
With those assholes you would also drop some dough and have no guaranteed return.


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## ElectroFuzz (Jun 10, 2014)

Uber is a pump and dump operation.
The drivers are not the real victims.
It's the 401K share holders who will burn after the IPO is released
and ownership is dumped on them for ridiculously inflated value.
48 billion dollar company.... yeah right...


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## gb21 (Dec 6, 2014)

John_in_kc said:


> hmm... Uber started working with Kansas city officials before their first ride, have been in negotiations for a revamped livery code for the city, and have put in place a decent insurance program for Kansas City drivers.
> 
> Part timers are netting $100-$400 a week. They just added UberXL and have nice social get togethers for drivers etc, always have an open door policy, quick to respond to emails and you can meet them in person during their open office hours.
> 
> I understand that there are negatives to this venture (like any business) but tinfoil is on too tight in this place sometimes.





John_in_kc said:


> hmm... Uber started working with Kansas city officials before their first ride, have been in negotiations for a revamped livery code for the city, and have put in place a decent insurance program for Kansas City drivers.
> 
> Part timers are netting $100-$400 a week. They just added UberXL and have nice social get togethers for drivers etc, always have an open door policy, quick to respond to emails and you can meet them in person during their open office hours.
> 
> I understand that there are negatives to this venture (like any business) but tinfoil is on too tight in this place sometimes.


That may be true that you are doing better things...but that's in KC. If it's true, then you qualify as one the few people running their market a bit better, and good for you. So you're saying you absolutely didn't launch in KC before securing all of the proper permits and satisfying the city ordinances? But anyway, you also brought up something I forgot. Open office hours, and email? Why is there not more available service for the Drivers and Riders? Just having random open office hours doesn't cut it. Also, this insurance that is "better," does it fully cover your drivers at all times when the app is on, regardless of whether they have a passenger or not? To go with that, does it automatically defer to your insurance first, and not the riders in that situation, not putting their own insurance in jeopardy? That would be what I call "better insurance."


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## John_in_kc (Sep 30, 2014)

gb21 said:


> That may be true that you are doing better things...but that's in KC. If it's true, then you qualify as one the few people running their market a bit better, and good for you. So you're saying you absolutely didn't launch in KC before securing all of the proper permits and satisfying the city ordinances? But anyway, you also brought up something I forgot. Open office hours, and email? Why is there not more available service for the Drivers and Riders? Just having random open office hours doesn't cut it. Also, this insurance that is "better," does it fully cover your drivers at all times when the app is on, regardless of whether they have a passenger or not? To go with that, does it automatically defer to your insurance first, and not the riders in that situation, not putting their own insurance in jeopardy? That would be what I call "better insurance."


Yes Uber applied for a permit prior to launch and is working out the driver licensing details now. Lyft didn't play ball and got shot down.
Uber is primary ins from when app is on. including comp and coll with 1,000 deductibles for my vehicle and PIP coverage. the liability limit is lower period 1, 50/100/50. then 1 mil once pinged. I don't have to file a claim with my own insurance get denied then file with uber.


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## gb21 (Dec 6, 2014)

John_in_kc said:


> Yes Uber applied for a permit prior to launch and is working out the driver licensing details now. Lyft didn't play ball and got shot down.
> Uber is primary ins from when app is on. including comp and coll with 1,000 deductibles for my vehicle and PIP coverage. the liability limit is lower period 1, 50/100/50. then 1 mil once pinged. I don't have to file a claim with my own insurance get denied then file with uber.


If all of that is true, that is great, and you deserve credit for that. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be what is happening in most cases. As I said, you very well could be doing more of the things there, but overall nothing explains UBER's actions, especially when they disregard city officials openly and blatantly.


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## John_in_kc (Sep 30, 2014)

gb21 said:


> If all of that is true, that is great, and you deserve credit for that. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be what is happening in most cases. As I said, you very well could be doing more of the things there, but overall nothing explains UBER's actions, especially when they disregard city officials openly and blatantly.


 Oh I agree with you, The company grew faster than its collective corporate maturity level. silicon valley start ups usually don't get tangled with general public regulations so quickly and diversly as uber ran into.

They got it wrong before, and are currently still having problems, but the trend seems to be more responsive and improving performance. How long it will translate down to the micro level, I have no idea.

I am just a driver trying to make some money.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

ElectroFuzz said:


> Uber is a pump and dump operation.
> The drivers are not the real victims.
> It's the 401K share holders who will burn after the IPO is released
> and ownership is dumped on them for ridiculously inflated value.
> 48 billion dollar company.... yeah right...


This is the first time I have read, someone besides myself, understanding the 401K fiasco. I have been saying the same thing for a couple years. The middle class is slowly killing itself by giving investors their hard earned retirement savings. 401K's are one giant ponzi scheme designed for investors by investors. The reason companies are growing astronomically fast is because of 401K money. Back in the day companies grew slower because they had to grow with money from profits. It was difficult if not impossible to buy competitors with borrowed money. Today company A borrows money to buy companies B,C,D,E,F,G,H. They borrow money from investors funded by 401K's. Works good until company A lays off 30% of employees in acquired companies. The ironic part is these employees typically are the ones that put their money into 401K's. Once company A has absorbed B,C,D,E,F,G and H, they go on acquiring I,J,K,L,M,N,O and P and lay off employees in those companies. This is why the middle class in the United States is dying off. The rich get richer, the middle class gets poor and the poor get poorer.


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## gb21 (Dec 6, 2014)

John_in_kc said:


> Oh I agree with you, The company grew faster than its collective corporate maturity level. silicon valley start ups usually don't get tangled with general public regulations so quickly and diversly as uber ran into.
> 
> They got it wrong before, and are currently still having problems, but the trend seems to be more responsive and improving performance. How long it will translate down to the micro level, I have no idea.
> 
> I am just a driver trying to make some money.


Interesting take on it with what you said about the corporste level. I think that is a legit statement there because the business certainly blew up in a good way, but how they handled it at the top has been questionable.


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## gb21 (Dec 6, 2014)

Very interesting. I brought this topic up, then came across this link on another forum....sounds like a lot of it is similar to what I'm saying:

http://disinfo.com/2014/12/uber-aint-easy-drivers-support-regulation/


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite (Nov 11, 2014)

what's so hidden about it


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## newsboy559 (Oct 14, 2014)

John_in_kc said:


> hmm... Uber started working with Kansas city officials before their first ride, have been in negotiations for a revamped livery code for the city, and have put in place a decent insurance program for Kansas City drivers.
> 
> Part timers are netting $100-$400 a week. They just added UberXL and have nice social get togethers for drivers etc, always have an open door policy, quick to respond to emails and you can meet them in person during their open office hours.
> 
> I understand that there are negatives to this venture (like any business) but tinfoil is on too tight in this place sometimes.


There's an Uber office in KC? Color me surprised. We were told that the only office dealing with Midwest operations was in Chicago. We've had one get together since inception 6 months ago here in Wichita. It was two weeks ago and it was a joke. The marketing genius was a complete ******bag and the meeting was nothing more than explaining how to share your referral codes.

He wasn't very pleased when a few drivers brought up cancellation fees and tipping problems. Plus, in six months the Wichita market is already completely oversaturated with drivers, but he continued to push drivers to share their referral code to get even more drivers out on the road.

The last two weeks have been my worst Uber weeks since I started this. In Wichita, when you have 40 cars sitting around the city on any given night, much less a busy night, it's pretty clear you're efforts are not going to be worthwhile.

Oh, and what kind of insurance has Uber offered you up there in Kansas City? I seriously doubt this claim, but I'd love to be proved wrong. I'm fairly certain the insurance they offer is the same insurance they offer everyone else in the country... the one where YOU, the driver, are not covered one bit... and neither is your vehicle.


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## newsboy559 (Oct 14, 2014)

John_in_kc said:


> Yes Uber applied for a permit prior to launch and is working out the driver licensing details now. Lyft didn't play ball and got shot down.
> Uber is primary ins from when app is on. including comp and coll with 1,000 deductibles for my vehicle and PIP coverage. the liability limit is lower period 1, 50/100/50. then 1 mil once pinged. I don't have to file a claim with my own insurance get denied then file with uber.


I'm sorry, but I don't believe this is true. Please provide proof. Either you're lying or you just simply haven't read the fine print of the insurance policy that Uber offers provides for everyone else.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite (Nov 11, 2014)

newsboy559 said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't believe this is true. Please provide proof. Either you're lying or you just simply haven't read the fine print of the insurance policy that Uber offers provides for everyone else.


There is no proof of anything. Just delusional hoping & wishful thinking.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Wow, lots of very very long posts here. I'll wait for the Cliff's Notes.


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## Killeen Ubur (Oct 29, 2014)

gb21 said:


> I've thought about this and really wonder. What I'm saying below is based on my experiences and opinion only. But could UBER possibly have a hidden pyramid set up? Bare with me, but I'll make an interesting comparison.
> 
> If you've ever seen a true sales pyramid scheme, like pedaling or soliciting a product.....what they do is exaggerate or mislead in advertising to get you in the door. You ever notice that most times these ads say "No Experience Necessary?" Right, because they need as many people as possible, and can't afford to weed out anyone. In those situations, they hire in bulk, and while you're there, they continue to hire in bulk. Why? Because as they get new people in, they know the new hires will eventually see that it isn't really for a "Management" position, or whatever they advertised. Once the new people catch on to the fact that now their selling a product, pedaling/soliciting illegally, etc. they then quit. Through this they are labeled as Independent Contractors and the alleged business has no ties or liability to them. A small % of them will seem to have some success, by default in the numbers game and law of averages. But most will fail. It isn't set up for them to really make out. It's set up for the company and it's front line employees at each location to succeed. KEY: They are mainly dependant on new employees first few weeks. The new hires work until they realize what they got in to. The company squeezes what they can out of them during that time before they realize, investigate, then quit....all the while, heavy advertising brings in another round of people constantly. The cycle keeps repeating itself. Those are just some of the issues.
> 
> ...


Wow really dude Uber is using one of the oldest sell's models out there, I used the same one for my Security Company had over 124 salesman all over the state they were commission only So if only a small percentage sold any thing I would still make money. But eventually I got exhausted of the turn over but some people don't.

For Example:

1. Use Car Lots

2. Pharmaceutical Company

3. Furniture Stores

4. Uber, Lyft, Sidecar............LOL


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## gb21 (Dec 6, 2014)

Killeen Ubur said:


> Wow really dude Uber is using one of the oldest sell's models out there, I used the same one for my Security Company had over 124 salesman all over the state they were commission only So if only a small percentage sold any thing I would still make money. But eventually I got exhausted of the turn over but some people don't.
> 
> For Example:
> 
> ...


Lol


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