# Uber Pays VS Rider Pays Fares



## Ek3333 (Oct 22, 2015)

Hi everyone, posting fare what I get paid vs rider pay, it's almost 100% , just check it out and tell me what you think or share with your unfair fare!


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## UberchickATL (Apr 27, 2018)

This is nothing new. Ubers been taking huge cuts for a long time now. Unfortunately the pax think we get most of the fare so that makes them less inclined to tip.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

Some of the pax actually think we get every penny they're charged. -o:


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Do Better.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

only one thing matters: did uber pay you what they last agreed to pay you for time, mileage and other? Because if they did, the only party that can complain is the paying customer.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Ek3333 said:


> Hi everyone, posting fare what I get paid vs rider pay, it's almost 100% , just check it out and tell me what you think or share with your unfair fare!
> View attachment 480374


Rider paid $40 and you got $21


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## IRME4EVER (Feb 17, 2020)

I know for a fact that Uber makes more than the drivers. Look at your cheap rides, we make 2.37 Uber makes 4.00+. Wake up!! We are getting sick and tired of being screwed over!! It's our cars, our rideshare insurance cost, our maintenance, our yearly tags. Most of all our car payments.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

IRME4EVER said:


> We are getting sick and tired of being screwed over!!


...but are we paid correctly for the last time we agreed to any changed terms? Asking for a friend.


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## Ek3333 (Oct 22, 2015)

IRME4EVER said:


> I know for a fact that Uber makes more than the drivers. Look at your cheap rides, we make 2.37 Uber makes 4.00+. Wake up!! We are getting sick and tired of being screwed over!! It's our cars, our rideshare insurance cost, our maintenance, our yearly tags. Most of all our car payments.


Our gas, our time


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

We should strike.


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## Ek3333 (Oct 22, 2015)

SHalester said:


> ...but are we paid correctly for the last time we agreed to any changed terms? Asking for a friend.


Did we have choices? lol


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Ek3333 said:


> Do we had choices? lol


Yes. Agree and go online. Decline and find something else to do. There are always choices; even if the choices suck, they are still choices.


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## Ek3333 (Oct 22, 2015)

Uber drivers needs union or something


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Ek3333 said:


> Uber drivers needs union or something


well, we need to be employees first. And second 50% + 1 need to VOTE to be unionized. Never happen.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Ek3333 said:


> Uber drivers needs union or something


No. RS drivers need to take a business management course. No Need for an MBA for this dreck just a solid understanding of Profit / Loss and Income vs cashflow.

Goober and Gryft took exactly 22.7% of my fares in 2019 and 24.1% in 2018. I fully understand how to affect my margins.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Amos69 said:


> No. RS drivers need to take a business management course. No Need for an MBA for this dreck just a solid understanding of Profit / Loss and Income vs cashflow.
> 
> Goober and Gryft took exactly 22.7% of my fares in 2019 and 24.1% in 2018. I fully understand how to affect my margins.


You longhaul the shit out of your rides, but every market is different.

Two drivers of equal ability and willingness to longhaul can have very different results due to differences in geography and clientele.

A market with lots of highways and transient populace will be much more conducive to longhauling than a market with fewer highways and a more stable populace.



SHalester said:


> only one thing matters: did uber pay you what they last agreed to pay you for time, mileage and other? Because if they did, the only party that can complain is the paying customer.


EVERY worker "agrees" to the pay rates and working conditions of the job when they apply, even if they think the pay is too low and the conditions suck, but according to you, they should keep their mouths shut and never complain and demand better pay and working conditions because they "agreed" to those things when they took the job. Obviously that's nonsense, but not with Uber according to you.
[automerge]1593598788[/automerge[/automerge]


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## Uberguyken (May 10, 2020)

Amos69 said:


> View attachment 480438
> View attachment 480439
> View attachment 480440
> View attachment 480441
> ...


And If you believe that I got some swamp land to sell you. LYFT hid the passenger fare from us for a reason... They are a shady AF company....


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## njn (Jan 23, 2016)

some markets have caps during a state of the emergency. this could be illegal.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Obviously that's nonsense, but not with Uber according to you.


excuse me? Try and keep to what is posted and don't invent words that weren't posted. My one and only point is every single driver agrees to the current agreement if they want to keep going online. Part of the agreement it is detailed what we will get paid. If you whine after the fact, then you have options. Quit or keep driving. But to whine and cry and have a tantrum because on some rides you feel Uber is making too much money, well that points to a complete misunderstanding of what was agreed to. 
One party can complain and that is the paying customer who takes it up the wazu (sometimes). Drivers have options when they are THAT upset. Quit, vent here (which does zero good, but might make one feel happy) or move to another platform.

Yeah, all nonsense and nonsensical.     Opinions often are HERE. :confusion:


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

The points in my previous post stand as written. I described your position accurately.

You've got a double-standard for which party is entitled to "whine" and which one isn't.

According to you, the pax is entitled to whine, not the driver, even though the pax has all the info (price and destination) needed UPFRONT to make an informed decision for whether or not the ride is a decent value. They can even compare prices between both companies before deciding. Yet in your mind, in spite of all that, the pax is entitled to complain about the price they "agreed" to.

Contrast that with the driver, who unlike the pax doesn't know the destination or the price upfront (except CA), does all the work, takes all the risk, and discovers afterwards they get less than half the fare. They of course are not entitled to complain because they "agreed" to Uber's terms which include being bent over a chair with no lube.

You only listed the driver as having "options" (quit if they don't like it), so I guess the poor helpless pax has no options but to "take it up the wazu".


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Whining is perfectly acceptable. I will whine about anything I want. It's the American way. And if anyone in turn whines about my whining, they're more than welcome to do that. The more the merrier.


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## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

SHalester said:


> excuse me? Try and keep to what is posted and don't invent words that weren't posted. My one and only point is every single driver agrees to the current agreement if they want to keep going online. Part of the agreement it is detailed what we will get paid. If you whine after the fact, then you have options. Quit or keep driving. But to whine and cry and have a tantrum because on some rides you feel Uber is making too much money, well that points to a complete misunderstanding of what was agreed to.
> *One party can complain and that is the paying customer who takes it up the wazu (sometimes)*. Drivers have options when they are THAT upset. Quit, vent here (which does zero good, but might make one feel happy) or move to another platform.
> 
> Yeah, all nonsense and nonsensical.     Opinions often are HERE. :confusion:


Pax also agree to the price when they request an Uber.

Also, don't pax have other options too? Buy a car. Learn to drive. Get a bike. Take a bus. Take a taxi. Walk?


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

What do you call someone who signs a contract and subsequently complains about the contract?


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## The queen 👸 (Jan 2, 2020)

Ssgcraig said:


> What do you call someone who signs a contract and subsequently complains about the contract?


An idiot?


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

UberchickATL said:


> This is nothing new. Ubers been taking huge cuts for a long time now. Unfortunately the pax think we get most of the fare so that makes them less inclined to tip.


Most pax don't care and think we only deserve pennies on the dollar.

The same callous way people view and treat the service industry is the same angle they see Uber drivers.


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Most pax don't care and think we only deserve pennies on the dollar.
> 
> The same callous way people view and treat the service industry is the same angle they see Uber drivers.


So all jobs should be viewed as equals? Treating people bad is just being an asshole.

Most of my pax are nice people. Occasionally I get the entitled assholes. Too many pax think we get paid 100% of the fare.

Most people view jobs as an accomplishment in life.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Ssgcraig said:


> So all jobs should be viewed as equals? Treating people bad is just being an @@@@@@@.
> 
> Most of my pax are nice people. Occasionally I get the entitled @@@@@@@@. Too many pax think we get paid 100% of the fare.
> 
> Most people view jobs as an accomplishment in life.


If you were a cashier at pigglywiggly it would be the same. Mostly nice people with the occasional ass hole.

However do something that customer/pax disagrees with and most become ass holes and you have the occasional one that remains pleasant.

I'm not saying it's right but just calling it as I see it. &#129335;‍♂ people suck


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> If you were a cashier at pigglywiggly it would be the same. Mostly nice people with the occasional ass hole.
> 
> However do something that customer/pax disagrees with and most become ass holes and you have the occasional one that remains pleasant.
> 
> I'm not saying it's right but just calling it as I see it. &#129335;‍♂ people suck


I do not think most people suck, I feel most people are nice.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Ssgcraig said:


> I do not think most people suck, I feel most people are nice.


I guess I'm having trouble getting my point across...

Put it this way people with ugly attitudes and behavior feel like they can get away with it a lot easier when dealing with the service industry.

When people as a whole have an issue with someone in the service industry they are more likely to get ugly about the situation than other industries.

The same applies to pay, most Americans don't care that the service industry pays crap.

The standard dogma is learn skills to get out of the service industry or you deserve crap wages.


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I guess I'm having trouble getting my point across...
> 
> The same applies to pay, most Americans don't care that the service industry pays crap.
> 
> The standard dogma is learn skills to get out of the service industry or you deserve crap wages.


When you're young you work crap jobs. As you learn and educate yourself, you open yourself up to better opportunities.

Working those crap jobs when I was young taught me to appreciate the job I have now. I would never go back to working a job that requires every weekend of my life. Well, maybe if it was porn or being a Rockstar. I would probably come up short in one of those though.

People with ugly attitudes think they can get away with it everywhere, just not the service industry.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Ssgcraig said:


> When you're young you work crap jobs. As you learn and educate yourself, you open yourself up to better opportunities.
> 
> Working those crap jobs when I was young taught me to appreciate the job I have now. I would never go back to working a job that requires every weekend of my life. Well, maybe if it was porn or being a Rockstar. I would probably come up short in one of those though.
> 
> People with ugly attitudes think they can get away with it everywhere, just not the service industry.


&#128583;‍♂ wish I was a porn star


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Mash Ghasem said:


> Some of the pax actually think we get every penny they're charged.


I do; if I am driving the cab, that is. Except for this Sunday past, and only because I forgot to fetch my insurance card, I have been driving the cab.



M62 said:


> don't pax have other options too? Take a taxi. Walk?


Lyft is probably the worst on this. Unless you have "unlocked a ride bonus", They could be charging the customer 2X or more Prime Time while paying the driver only base rates. Even if you do "unlock a ride bonus", Lyft gives you very little of the extra that the customer pays.
Lyft tries to put itself out there as the "better boyfriend", and, it has, indeed, gotten more than a little mileage out of that, but, Lyft is far from the "better boyfriend".


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Ssgcraig said:


> I do not think most people suck, I feel most people are nice.


Most people are stupid.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

M62 said:


> Pax also agree to the price when they request an Uber.


pretty sure nobody said that they don't? Pax ain't complaining....at least not in any numbers that register. Pax need a ride, they pay. Pretty simple.


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## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

SHalester said:


> pretty sure nobody said that they don't?


Your comment implied that drivers shouldn't complain because they agreed to the fare beforehand. But that pax have validity to complain (even though they also agreed beforehand). See highlighted parts of your previous post below. If you disagree with my interpretation of it, please point out the correct one:



SHalester said:


> excuse me? Try and keep to what is posted and don't invent words that weren't posted. My one and only point is every single driver agrees to the current agreement if they want to keep going online. *Part of the agreement it is detailed what we will get paid.* If you whine after the fact, then you have options. Quit or keep driving. *But to whine and cry and have a tantrum because on some rides you feel Uber is making too much money, well that points to a complete misunderstanding of what was agreed to.
> One party can complain and that is the paying customer who takes it up the wazu (sometimes).* Drivers have options when they are THAT upset. Quit, vent here (which does zero good, but might make one feel happy) or move to another platform.


You said: "*One party can complain and that is the paying customer who takes it up the wazu (sometimes)." *But wouldn't the same argument of them agreeing beforehand apply? So why, when it comes to pax, do you describe them as 'taking it up the wazu'. And don't just say it points to a 'complete misunderstanding of what was agreed to', like you said about drivers?


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

SHalester said:


> Pax ain't complaining....at least not in any numbers that register


They do plenty of complaining here about the prices. The complaint of theirs that I like best is "Why should I pay almost as much as I would for a cab to get a driver who does not know where he is going when I can pay about the same and get one who does?"

This is one reason, of several, why people are still using cabs, here.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Another Uber Driver said:


> They do plenty of complaining here about the prices.


not sure where here is? My pax never, ever say boo about the fee they are paying. Zero complaints, zero questions. No ground swell to speak of. Twitterverse quiet as well, with exception to replies when UBER tweets.

I guess 'burb' pax are just happy to get a driver show up? idk. As a pax I never complain and most of my use is as a tourist in target rich environments. It is what it is.

From airports cabs/taxi are the clear winner; anywhere else I wonder just what the advantage would be? Walking out of the airport and seeing the cab line/stand is quite an offer, hard to resist........


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

SHalester said:


> not sure where here is?


....................The Capital of Your Nation.................



SHalester said:


> From airports cabs/taxi are the clear winner; anywhere else I wonder just what the advantage would be? Walking out of the airport and seeing the cab line/stand is quite an offer, hard to resist........


In the Big City, you can walk out and put up your hand. There is no need to wait for a driver who can not find Connecticut, Wisconsin or Pennsylvania Avenues.

In this market, on the very short trips, the cab is far less expensive. On the short trips, the cab is slightly less expensive. On the mediocre trips, the cab is about the same. On the longer trips, the TNC is far less. This is base rates, mind you.

Add a mild surge/Prime Time; the kind where Uber/Lyft charge the customer a multiplier but pay the driver only base rates; the TNC pockets all of the customer's surge/Prime Time payment. At that point, now the mediocre trip in the cab is lsightly less expensive. Suddenly, you are paying less for a higher quality of service if you use a cab.

Add a surge.Prime Time factor of 1,7 or more; the kind where Uber is paying you one-dollar-fifty-to two-dollars-fifty extra and Lyft one dollar seventy-five to one-dollar-ninety-eight but only if you are fortunate enough to "unlock a ride bonus". At this point, the cab is the same as the TNC for even the longer trips.

Go to a surge factor of 1,9 (where Uber pays the driver three dollars to four dollars) and the TNC is more than a cab.

If use an application to summon a ride, you must, Uber does have taxis in this market. There is also a cab summoning application called "Curb". The grand thing about Curb is that if you hail a Curb taxi, you can pay through the Curb application if you key in the code that is on the passenger's display screen. Thus, you can hail a cab and have the same seamless transaction experience that Uber and Lyft offer.


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## AdAstra (Jun 26, 2020)

Ssgcraig said:


> What do you call someone who signs a contract and subsequently complains about the contract?


Desperate with Compunction


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Another Uber Driver said:


> In the Big City, you can walk out and put up your hand.


yeah, no. Suburbs taxi/cabs don't exist in any numbers. About zero, actually. A few airport drop offs and that is about it. It's a RS world outside of the 'big' city. 
If not for airports and a few hotels cabs would go the way of the dodo bird.


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## AdAstra (Jun 26, 2020)

SHalester said:


> yeah, no. Suburbs taxi/cabs don't exist in any numbers. About zero, actually. A few airport drop offs and that is about it. It's a RS world outside of the 'big' city.
> If not for airports and a few hotels cabs would go the way of the dodo *bird*.


Speaking of Birds,
My favorite





@Who is John Galt? should chime in on this native bird


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Ssgcraig said:


> What do you call someone who signs a contract and subsequently complains about the contract?


50% of parties to contracts.


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## z_z_z_ (Aug 17, 2019)

Mash Ghasem said:


> Some of the pax actually think we get every penny they're charged. -o:


This is why I have a sign in my car saying I am not an employee of Uber, I get paid 70 cents a mile and 15 cents a minute plus 1.00 at the start of the trip, and to please consider leaving a tip! &#129315;

Has actually more than doubled my tips but I do live in an area with a lot of college students and international visitors who are very impressionable.


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

z_z_z_ said:


> This is why I have a sign in my car saying I am not an employee of Uber, I get paid 70 cents a mile and 15 cents a minute plus 1.00 at the start of the trip, and to please consider leaving a tip! &#129315;
> 
> Has actually more than doubled my tips but I do live in an area with a lot of college students and international visitors who are very impressionable.


Along those lines, I know guys who have laminated full page blow-ups of several shitty fares (showing Uber/Lyft taking the lion's share) with something like this at the top of the page:

*Who gets all that money you paid? Not THIS guy...*

They claim it works in increasing their tips.

At the very least, it could help educate riders who might give a crap.


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## z_z_z_ (Aug 17, 2019)

Amos69 said:


> No. RS drivers need to take a business management course. No Need for an MBA for this dreck just a solid understanding of Profit / Loss and Income vs cashflow.
> 
> Goober and Gryft took exactly 22.7% of my fares in 2019 and 24.1% in 2018. I fully understand how to affect my margins.


Yeah you're driving pax around in circles all day thinking that it makes you more money &#129315;

Have fun "affecting your margins" with driving pax in circles or the long way round

If you knew how business works you would know that how much U/L recieve has no "affect on your margins", your margin only exists within your revenues and has nothing to do with what U/L revenues are compared to your own.



KenLV said:


> Along those lines, I know guys who have laminated full page blow-ups of several shitty fares (showing Uber/Lyft taking the lion's share) with something like this at the top of the page:
> 
> *Who gets all that money you paid? Not THIS guy...*
> 
> ...


That could work but I found that many conservative type paxholes (old and rich white people) will look down on you if you seem like you're complaining and that's no good because I need their rich people dollars as my tips.

Whereas if i take the stance of being a "self-employed" business person informing them of where their money goes they seem to respect that.

I used to have some signs saying "uber takes xyz from every fare" but they didn't work nearly as well as stating exactly how much I am paid and that I am an independent entity from uber/lyft. I think complaining about uber is too negative and people don't like to respond to negativity with tipping, after all they like using uber and don't want to be made to feel guilty for just taking an uber.


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

Ek3333 said:


> Hi everyone, posting fare what I get paid vs rider pay, it's almost 100% , just check it out and tell me what you think or share with your unfair fare!
> View attachment 480374


That is the main reason we need AB5 comes to alive. If Uber didn't want to make drivers as their employees, Uber would have needed to change their pay system as taking out just 30% commission fees only and no more of cancellation % and acceptance %.


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> That is the main reason we need AB5 comes to alive. If Uber didn't want to make drivers as their employees, Uber would have needed to change their pay system as taking out just 30% commission fees only and no more of cancellation % and acceptance %.


Could you please repost that, but in English.

Thanks.


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## Carlycat (Mar 31, 2020)

Ek3333 said:


> Hi everyone, posting fare what I get paid vs rider pay, it's almost 100% , just check it out and tell me what you think or share with your unfair fare!
> View attachment 480374
> 
> That doesn't look like 20% or even 28% they say they take from you, more like 50%!


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Can you show me where, in your agreement with them, Uber says that they take only 20%/28% of the rider's fare?


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## AdAstra (Jun 26, 2020)

Wildgoose said:


> *If Uber didn't want to make drivers as their employees,*


*Uber* Drivers don't want to be employees

Fixed it 4 U


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## CJfrom619 (Apr 27, 2017)

L


Another Uber Driver said:


> They do plenty of complaining here about the prices. The complaint of theirs that I like best is "Why should I pay almost as much as I would for a cab to get a driver who does not know where he is going when I can pay about the same and get one who does?"
> 
> This is one reason, of several, why people are still using cabs, here.


Hahahaha said nobody ever. This is the funniest post I've heard in a while. You ever complains about the Uber driving not knowing where to go?? Lol. I get you like being a taxi but lets not fabricate shit for the sake of your argument.


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

I posted this on another thread just yesterday, but it seems just as apt here since people, who want to be employees, are pushing the same garbage here...

If you can't figure out how this works and how to make money at it but you still want to drive *and *be someone's employee, you have a ton of options:

Drive a ef-ing taxi, limo, bus, truck, etc...

Leave those of us who are capable of being profitable independent contractors the ef alone.

Either that, or learn to NOT drive 10 minutes for a minimum fare ride...learn to NOT buy a new vehicle to earn ~$0.60/mile...learn HOW TO spot the moron who is 3 minutes from puking his guts out *before* you unlock your doors. etc...

*Figure it out OR do something else!*

Why do we have to pay for your incompetence?


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Wildgoose said:


> and acceptance %.


AR has been gone in Calif since 1/1. And Prop 22 if passes, will nullify AB5 completely.


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

SHalester said:


> only one thing matters: did uber pay you what they last agreed to pay you for time, mileage and other?


Yes and no. He got the milage and time pay to which he agreed. However, his share of the surge pay is open for debate. Uber tell us that we are guaranteed at least $x.xx. they also tell us that they will adjust our pay up on surge rides so that we get a majority of the suged fare. Clearly on the posted trip, uber kept a majority of the surged fare.


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Boca Ratman said:


> they also tell us that they will adjust our pay up on surge rides so that we get a majority of the suged fare.


Source?


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## AdAstra (Jun 26, 2020)

Boca Ratman said:


> they also tell us that they will adjust our pay up on surge rides so that we get a majority of the suged fare.


sounds more like a Prayer Mr @Boca Ratman


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

AdAstra said:


> *Uber* Drivers don't want to be employees
> 
> Fixed it 4 U


Uber doesn't want to classify drivers as employees. 
But the question is "Do you or all drivers satisfy the current pay rate of Uber?" Answer is no. AB5 is forcing Uber to pay better rate. Actually, paying the rate could be classify as employees. So Uber needed to change it as taking commissions on fares. Needed to get rid of booking fees, service fees something like that. Or they can only take booking fees and service fees if they really want to make drivers as independent contractors. That is why AB5 is good for RS drivers. I am not saying that drivers will become employees of Uber because of AB5, What I am saying is because of AB5 laws, Uber has no choice but to change their pay system. Don't you like that way?


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## AdAstra (Jun 26, 2020)

Wildgoose said:


> Uber doesn't want to classify drivers as employees.
> But the question is "Do you or all drivers satisfy the current pay rate of Uber?" Answer is no. AB5 is forcing Uber to pay better rate. Actually, paying the rate could be classify as employees. So Uber needed to change it as taking commissions on fares. Needed to get rid of booking fees, service fees something like that. Or they can only take booking fees and service fees if they really want to make drivers as independent contractors. That is why AB5 is good for RS drivers. I am not saying that drivers will become employees of Uber because of AB5, What I am saying is because of AB5 laws, Uber has no choice but to change their pay system. Don't you like that way?


No sale


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

KenLV said:


> Could you please repost that, but in English.
> 
> Thanks.


R u trying to do racist chant out loud in here?


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

CJfrom619 said:


> Hahahaha said nobody ever.


JaJaJaJaJa.............says some guy in a market three thousand, or so miles from the one about which he is implying that he knows oh-so-much........................


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> R u trying to do racist chant out loud in here?


LOL, I literally have no idea what your race is - after all, your avatar is a *white* duck/goose.

However, by trying to inject race into this, you've shown that the one actually being racist here, is you.

My request was based solely on your inability to properly express your thoughts in writing.

Just like you failed to do here...



Wildgoose said:


> Uber doesn't want to classify drivers as employees.
> But the question is "Do you or all drivers satisfy the current pay rate of Uber?" Answer is no. AB5 is forcing Uber to pay better rate. Actually, paying the rate could be classify as employees. So Uber needed to change it as taking commissions on fares. Needed to get rid of booking fees, service fees something like that. Or they can only take booking fees and service fees if they really want to make drivers as independent contractors. That is why AB5 is good for RS drivers. I am not saying that drivers will become employees of Uber because of AB5, What I am saying is because of AB5 laws, Uber has no choice but to change their pay system. Don't you like that way?


 WOW!?!

Seriously my friend, black, white, or whatever, that's just horrible.

It physically hurt me to try and read that mess.

It's not racist to point that observable fact out.


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

KenLV said:


> LOL, I literally have no idea what your race is - after all, your avatar is a *white* duck/goose.
> 
> However, by trying to inject race into this, you've shown that the one actually being racist here, is you.
> 
> ...


You seemed like you wanted to tell me ""use english or go back to your country". That was what I got from your messages.
English is not my mother language so I can not describe like you can. If you were a nice person, it is not appropiate to tell other people write in English in the first place. How many languages you can write? Think about your ability first and lecture me later.


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

KenLV said:


> If *..........................*you still want to drive *and *be someone's employee, you have a ton of options: Drive a*...............*taxi.


I drive both UberX and a cab. I am no one's employee, even if I drive the cab. The cab drivers in this market do not work for the companies. Either they own or lease their cabs. I own mine.



Wildgoose said:


> How many languages you can write? Think about your ability first and lecture me later.


_Latine
τόν αρχαΐον 'Ελλενικόν 
italiano
français (patois cajun)_
English

(I also can decipher Spanish)


----------



## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

Another Uber Driver said:


> I drive both UberX and a cab. I am no one's employee, even if I drive the cab. The cab drivers in this market do not work for the companies. Either they own or lease their cabs. I own mine.
> 
> _Latine
> τόν αρχαΐον 'Ελλενικόν
> ...


I know you are a respectful gentle man. And you know a lot of languages. Work as on call interpreter and you could make more money, I guess.


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> I drive both UberX and a cab. I am no one's employee, even if I drive the cab. The cab drivers in this market do not work for the companies. Either they own or lease their cabs. I own mine.


As you are likely aware, this varies from region to region. Here, let me make it better for you...

If you can't figure out how this works and how to make money at it but you still want to drive *and *be someone's employee, you have a ton of options:

Drive a ef-ing taxi, limo, bus, truck, etc... UNLESS you live in @Another Uber Driver 's area.
____________________

There are also people who own their own limos and trucks, but that's not the people we're talking about, now is it? The people we're talking are those people incapable of working for themselves. They shouldn't own their own taxi, limo, or truck, and they should do ride-share.

My point stands.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

KenLV said:


> If you can't figure out how this works and how to make money at it


More than 97% of Uber drivers quit every year, so obviously very few of them have been able to "figure out" how to make money while being paid 1979 taxi rates in the year 2020.

And because hundreds of thousands of those drivers depend on 1979 taxi rates to support their families with 2020 cost of living expenses, the taxpayers have to step in pay billions of dollars per year in welfare, food stamps, medicaid, and Section 8 housing assistance.

Uber and Lyft are parasites that feed off the taxpayers to the tune of billions of dollars per year.


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> You seemed like you wanted to tell me ""use english or go back to your country". That was what I got from your messages.


Your mind reading skills are as bad as your ability to express yourself.

Hint: I'm a first generation American, so you couldn't be more wrong.

You really seem to have a victim complex here. (google it)

Politely (I said "please" and "thanks") I asked you to re-post your message again so that we could understand. Admittedly, I did it with some snark - like countless people have done a million times on forums just like this. For you to jump to the (wrong) conclusion that I was a racist because of that, well, that's just nuts. (See: victim complex)



Wildgoose said:


> it is not appropiate to tell other people write in English in the first place.


Who told you this nonsense?

If I were in another country and were writing on their message boards, I'd be expected to use their native tongue.

So, for example, if we were having this discussion in London...wait, bad example, OK, say we were in Australia...nope, that doesn't work either, anyway, you get my point.



Wildgoose said:


> How many languages you can write?


Without assistance? Two.
With Google? Pretty much all of them.
Why?



Wildgoose said:


> Think about your ability first and lecture me later.


I didn't "lecture" you.

Without cause, based solely on 9 words (and your victim complex), you publicly called me a racist.

I presented a vigorous defense to your libelous accusation.

Should I have just let it slide?

I think not, sir.

No.

I. Think. Not.

I'm a good sport though.

So, if you apologize, I'll think about it.


----------



## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> Rider paid $40 and you got $21


that's 50% not 100%


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

KenLV said:


> As you are likely aware, this varies from region to region. Here, let me make it better for you...
> 
> If you can't figure out how this works and how to make money at it but you still want to drive *and *be someone's employee, you have a ton of options:
> 
> Drive a *..................* taxi*...................*... UNLESS you live in @Another Uber Driver 's area *or any other place where similar obtains*


FIFY

.
____________________



KenLV said:


> My point*,.as amended.* stands.


FIFY


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> FIFY
> 
> .
> ____________________
> ...


No, my point, which is that these people shouldn't be self employed, stands as is.

As I said...

There are also people who own their own limos and trucks, but that's not the people we're talking about, now is it? The people we're talking are those people incapable of working for themselves. They shouldn't own their own taxi, limo, or truck, and they should do ride-share.

Since I'm explicitly discussing alternatives for people incapable of working for themselves, ANY specific instance that requires the person to be self employed, doesn't apply.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

KenLV said:


> my point,QUOTE]
> 
> The fallacy in this alleged "point" of yours is that you insist that driving a taxi as an "employee" is an option. That is not always the case. In fact, in my market, it is not an option anywhere. You can not drive for any cab company in this area as an employee. This is not the only market like that.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Ssgcraig said:


> What do you call someone who signs a contract and subsequently complains about the contract?


Class action member, if they're smart.


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

It's like talking to a wall, but I'm willing to try it one more time...

Here's (part of) your problem.



Another Uber Driver said:


> The fallacy in this alleged "point" of yours is that you insist that driving a taxi as an "employee" is an option.


No, *that was NOT my point* - as I've stated several times.

You want it to be my *point *because you think you can easily attack it (BTW, "Strawman" fallacy) but it is not my *point*.

My *point* is: *"These people should not be self employed."*

I 100% stand by that.

You have not given me reason to change my mind - because you aren't arguing against it, but against something else (See: Strawman).

Now, if they aren't capable of be self employed, but still want to drive for a living, what are some alternate possibilities for them?

Being the nice guy I am, I made some suggestions.

Whether or not one (or any) *option *is viable *option *for you, doesn't affect the validity of my *point*: _These people shouldn't be self employed_.

Hell, I could have included "piloting a rocket to the moon" as an *option* (which is likely a viable option for zero rideshare drivers) and it still wouldn't matter with respect to my *point*.

It's just that simple.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Wildgoose said:


> AB5 is forcing Uber to pay better rate.


ah, er, um it did? Nope. In Calif 1/1 our base pay change a bit, but there wasn't a 'raise' or an 'increase' in rates. They played a game with the 25% service fee; the offset was a 'pretend' increase in mileage and time rates of pay that evened out to zero when you include the 25% fee to Uber. 
Or I missed the better pay rate, which is possible if it was cents......


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

KenLV said:


> you think you can easily attack it


Among your many skills is reading minds, -eh? There is a guy who hangs around the Politics Boards you might like to meet. He reads minds, as well..........or acts as if he does..........................



KenLV said:


> (BTW, "Strawman" fallacy)


Your straw man is what you are allegedly reading in my supposed thoughts.



KenLV said:


> You have not given me reason to change my mind


I am not so naive as to expect to change anyone's mind, especially on YouPeaDorNet. There is more than one reason for this.



KenLV said:


> if they aren't capable of be self employed, but still want to drive for a living, what are some alternate possibilities for them?


Neither are viable options which puts their possibility at near zero if not there. You even admit to one's not being possible (or close to it)



KenLV said:


> I could have included "piloting a rocket to the moon" as an *option* (which is likely a viable option for zero rideshare drivers)





KenLV said:


> Being the nice guy I am


:laugh::roflmao::laugh::roflmao::roflmao:

,


----------



## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

SHalester said:


> ah, er, um it did? Nope. In Calif 1/1 our base pay change a bit, but there wasn't a 'raise' or an 'increase' in rates. They played a game with the 25% service fee; the offset was a 'pretend' increase in mileage and time rates of pay that evened out to zero when you include the 25% fee to Uber.
> Or I missed the better pay rate, which is possible if it was cents......


You guys are missing the point that how independent contractors get paid fees from the job they handle. Uber and Lyft fares system is not quite right on paying fees to their drivers as contractors . I have problem of describing how I see in this so I will explain it here in other way.
Suppose that an independent contractors agree to gain 70% of money for the task he/she performed. ( that is 70% of riders pay regardless of how many miles and how many minutes for travel. ) When a rider pays $21, a contractor gets $14 Simple like that . No more no less. Uber and Lyft charge booking fees and service fees to riders and they cut that fares before they pay to drivers. That is why driver as an independent contractor get like 50% of rider pays. That is the main point that drivers are now more likely seemed as employees. If drivers were more like independent contractor, getting commission on rider pay is the key. AB5 is forcing Uber and Lyft to do commission cut if Uber and Lyft really wanted drivers are not their employees. They have to treat drivers like real contractors.


----------



## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

SHalester said:


> not sure where here is? My pax never, ever say boo about the fee they are paying. Zero complaints, zero questions. No ground swell to speak of. Twitterverse quiet as well, with exception to replies when UBER tweets.
> 
> I guess 'burb' pax are just happy to get a driver show up? idk. As a pax I never complain and most of my use is as a tourist in target rich environments. It is what it is.
> 
> From airports cabs/taxi are the clear winner; anywhere else I wonder just what the advantage would be? Walking out of the airport and seeing the cab line/stand is quite an offer, hard to resist........


This is actually where rideshare changed the game. Rural areas that was complete un-served by the cab industry(most of America).


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> Suppose that an independent contractors agree to gain 70% of money for the task he/she performed. ( that is 70% of riders pay regardless of how many miles and how many minutes for travel. ) When a rider pays $21, a contractor gets $14 Simple like that.


That sounds delightful. However...

Nowhere in any agreement that you have accepted with Uber/Lyft in the last ~2-2.5(?) years does it say that this is how your pay is calculated (AB5 may have changed that, but I don't believe so - if it has, I'm sure you can post screenshots).

For example, the below is how Lyft pay is calculated. Your pay is determined by your rate card, not what the rider pays. You may not like it, but *you agreed to it* and it is NOT what you describe above. At all.
https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/arti...nd-when-driver-pay-is-calculated#calculations"*Fare calculations*
Lyft passengers pay for rides through the app.

Driver pay calculation begins when the passenger is in your car and you've *tapped to pick up* in the app. Driver pay includes time spent waiting, starting one minute after you've confirmed your arrival (read our step-by-step guide on how to give Lyft rides).

Lyft ride fare includes:


*Base Fare:* The amount passengers pay to start the ride
*Cost per mile:* The amount you earn per mile in the city where your ride starts
*Cost per minute:* The amount you earn per minute in the region where your ride starts
We determine the applicable local rate card depending on which city and region in which a ride was requested. See local pricing on your region's Rate Card.
...
Drivers earn the per-mile and per-minute rates identified on their region's Rate Card, regardless of what the passenger pays."
Again, you might not like it, but you agreed to it.

Let me show you


Wildgoose said:


> how independent contractors get paid fees from the job they handle


...
Regina is opening a small shop and needs it to be built out.

Larry is a contractor that Regina hires to oversee the entire job.

David is an electrician that Larry sub-contracts with to do the electrical work.

Regina and Larry agree that Larry will be paid $75,000 for the build-out.

Larry and David agree that David will be paid $5,000 for the electrical.

What Regina pays Larry has literally nothing to do with what Larry pays David.

If David isn't happy with what Larry offered, he doesn't have to take the job.

(There are obviously more steps to this, like taking bids, haggling, etc... and of course there are variations of this (including doing a set percentage of the work for a set percentage of the total bid) but that is effectively the high points. I just wouldn't want some idiot trying to point out the obvious - that this isn't a complete detailed description of the process.)

Oh, in case it wasn't obvious: Regina=Rider Larry=Lyft David=Driver

AB5 is crap, but what I'd love to see is legislation that ALL drivers get up-front estimates and minimum guarantees of what the ride will pay and entail BEFORE they accept.

I've seen that they've done this in (some?) Cali markets.

Don't know if it was all Cali markets or if it's still being done, but THIS is how "real contractors" work - agree on a price and work to be done BEFORE work starts.
https://uberpeople.net/threads/california-uber-drivers-are-getting-a-new-ride-request-screen.366325/THAT should be what EVERY driver's acceptance screen looks like.


----------



## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

KenLV said:


> That sounds delightful. However...
> 
> Nowhere in any agreement that you have accepted with Uber/Lyft in the last ~2-2.5(?) years does it say that this is how your pay is calculated (AB5 may have changed that, but I don't believe so - if it has, I'm sure you can post screenshots).
> 
> ...


This is exactly why Drivers (independent contractors) are seemed like employees. When you focus on cost per minutes, the rate is exactly based on minimum wages of those state and in other way, drivers are getting paid per hour. When a person is getting paid for a task per hour, then that person is exactly classified as employee.
Cost per mile is paid for usage of a driver's car. So it could be ruled out for earning of a driver (employee).
That might be main reason why authority of CA state consider drivers as employees.



KenLV said:


> Let me show you
> ...
> Regina is opening a small shop and needs it to be built out.
> 
> ...


At Your example, David would take the job from Larry for once or twice but not always. And Larry and David didn't agree their terms based on paid per hour or per day. David as a independent contractor, he would have asked how much he would get to do Regina's job. Making profit or not, up front money agreement amount is needed between them. If Larry and David had a term of pay to perform task based on hour or day or week, then David was Larry's employee and David was not a sub contractor.


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> When you focus on cost per minutes, the rate is exactly based on minimum wages of those state and in other way, drivers are getting paid per hour. When a person is getting paid for a task per hour, then that person is exactly classified as employee.


There is literally nothing here that is correct.


Wildgoose said:


> When you focus on cost per minutes, the rate is exactly based on minimum wages of those state and in other way


No it isn't. On what do you base this assertion?


Wildgoose said:


> drivers are getting paid per hour.


Again, no they are not. They are getting paid per minute and mile driven. It says it right there in what you agreed to. It says nothing about an hourly wage.


Wildgoose said:


> When a person is getting paid for a task per hour, then that person is exactly classified as employee.


We are not paid per "task per hour", we are paid per task (based on the time and distance driven).



Wildgoose said:


> At Your example, David would take the job from Larry for once or twice but not always.


Why wouldn't he?



Wildgoose said:


> And Larry and David didn't agree their terms based on paid per hour or per day.


Correct, they agreed on a cost/payment for David to complete the electrical work. That's how contractors/sub-contractors bid on jobs.



Wildgoose said:


> David as a independent contractor, he would have asked how much he would get to do Regina's job.


When you say "how much he would get to do Regina's job" who is the "he" there? David or Larry?
If Larry, David may or may not ask Larry how much Regina is paying Larry, but Larry is under no obligation to tell him; and frankly, he'd likely tell David to pound sand if he asked.
If the "he" is David, David isn't getting anything to do "Regina's job", he's Larry's sub-contractor, he's getting paid to do "Larry's job", and as I said, Larry is paying him $5,000.



Wildgoose said:


> Making profit or not, up front money agreement amount is needed between them.


Again, David agreed to accept $5,000 to complete the job. Whether or not that's profitable for David is for David to determine, not Larry.



Wildgoose said:


> If Larry and David had a term of pay to perform task based on hour or day or week, then David was Larry's employee and David was not a sub contractor.


They had an agreement to complete the electrical work. Though there is a construction schedule that David would have to work with, he's paid for the job, not how many hours he works.

Just like us, David is a sub-contractor.


----------



## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

KenLV said:


> We are not paid per "task per hour", we are paid per task (based on the time and distance driven).


Paid per hour, paid per minute are same. Those are based on paid per time for a person to do a job (the time driven)


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

KenLV said:


> ...
> Regina is opening a small shop and needs it to be built out.
> 
> Larry is a contractor that Regina hires to oversee the entire job.
> ...


Apples and oranges.

In the real world, Regina "agrees" to LARRY'S contract, unlike drivers who "agree" to UBER'S contract.

Larry's a true IC while the drivers are employees.

IC status as it's practiced in the US and the Western World is a tax-evasion scam in most cases.



KenLV said:


> Just like us, David is a sub-contractor.


Nonsense.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

M62 said:


> Your comment implied that drivers shouldn't complain because they agreed to the fare beforehand. But that pax have validity to complain (even though they also agreed beforehand). See highlighted parts of your previous post below. If you disagree with my interpretation of it, please point out the correct one:
> 
> You said: "*One party can complain and that is the paying customer who takes it up the wazu (sometimes)." *But wouldn't the same argument of them agreeing beforehand apply? So why, when it comes to pax, do you describe them as 'taking it up the wazu'. And don't just say it points to a 'complete misunderstanding of what was agreed to', like you said about drivers?


You're forgetting that when pax complain they often get a refund or credit, and sometimes the fare is taken away from the driver, who has to jump through hoops to get it back.

So pax have more options and drivers actually DON'T always even get what they "agreed" to.

I agreed to much higher rates when I started. Every rate decrease has been agreed to under duress: "Agree to this or you can't drive" with no notice. What are your options right then if you need to pay the rent? And if you're working more and more to make the same money, where is the time to find a new job? Not that that's an option now, anyway.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> I agreed to much higher rates when I started. Every rate decrease has been agreed to under duress: "Agree to this or you can't drive" with no notice.


Supposedly it's legal for Uber to do that but it certainly isn't ethical, and it's also disingenuous for someone to claim during a debate that the driver "agreed" to the latest pay cut when the alternative is being fired from their job.

Suffice to say that if someone used Uber's unethical tactic to get a friend to "agree" to do something it could very well be the end of that friendship, especially if the perpetrator had the nerve to tell his friend that "you did agree to it".


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> Among your many skills is reading minds, -eh?


It's not mind reading, it's observation.

You repeatedly misstated my position so that you could knock it down.

It's an observable fact and literally the definition of a strawman fallacy.
Here, this will make it simpler: 






KenLV said:


> Now, if they aren't capable of {being} self employed, but still want to drive for a living, what are some alternate possibilities for them?





Another Uber Driver said:


> Neither are viable options which puts their possibility at near zero if not there. You even admit to one's not being possible (or close to it)


I don't agree with this assertion, but regardless of that...

What's it have to do with the price of tea in China?


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

KenLV said:


> it's observation.
> so that you could knock it down.


If you are "observing" something, do kindly show me where I stated "I am going to 'knock down' your position" or words similar. If you can not find such words, the "straw man" could be coming from you.

I


----------



## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Supposedly it's legal for Uber to do that but it certainly isn't ethical, and it's also disingenuous for someone to claim during a debate that the driver "agreed" to the latest pay cut when the alternative is being fired from their job.
> 
> Suffice to say that if someone used Uber's unethical tactic to get a friend to "agree" to do something it could very well be the end of that friendship, especially if the perpetrator had the nerve to tell his friend that "you did agree to it".


I'm not disagreeing with your ethical observation. But if you're expecting ethics from large companies, you may be disappointed.

Big companies are usually not interested in ethics. They're interested in making money. They just like to virtue signal, sometimes.



KenLV said:


> Regina is opening a small shop and needs it to be built out.
> 
> Larry is a contractor that Regina hires to oversee the entire job.
> 
> ...


A couple of flaws in your analogy.

1.) Uber and Lyft are not like Larry. Larry is a contractor. I.e, he is a company that performs work, but farms some (or all) of it out to others. This would be analogous to a taxi company that takes bookings and gives them to independent drivers. Uber and Lyft claim they are not taxi companies. But third party brokers linking drivers with customers.

2.) David presumably gets a better description of the job before he takes it than the average Uber driver does.


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

M62 said:


> This would be analogous to a taxi company that takes bookings and gives them to independent drivers.


This is precisely what the cab companies in my (and his, as our market is the same) market do. They claim that they provide only services to the drivers. The drivers affiliate with them by contract. The drivers are not their employees.


----------



## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

KenLV said:


> Source?


Uber



AdAstra said:


> sounds more like a Prayer Mr @Boca Ratman


Or fairy tale.


----------



## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

Another Uber Driver said:


> This is precisely what the cab companies in my (and his, as our market is the same) market do. They claim that they provide only services to the drivers. The drivers affiliate with them by contract. The drivers are not their employees.


And when you come to file taxes for those cab rides, I'm pretty sure you don't put what the company got paid as your gross income. You probably put down what you got paid. Unlike with rideshare.


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

M62 said:


> And when you come to file taxes for those cab rides, I'm pretty sure you don't put what the company got paid as your gross income. You probably put down what you got paid. Unlike with rideshare.


I get one hundred per-cent of my meter fares. Thus, what you state is correct: I _do_ report the total fare. Out of my receipts, I pay the cab company its fees.


----------



## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

Another Uber Driver said:


> I get one hundred per-cent of my meter fares. Thus, what you state is correct: I _do_ report the total fare. Out of my receipts, I pay the cab company its fees.


AFAIK, with Uber and Lyft, we put the amount the pax paid for the ride on our tax return. Then file Uber/Lyft's cut as a deduction. You're saying it's the same with the cab? If so, I was wrong then.


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

M62 said:


> with Uber and Lyft, we put the amount the pax paid for the ride on our tax return.


_..................correctamundo................._What Uber and Lyft put onto your 1099 is the gross amount of the jobs that you ran. In years past, you had to compare that with the bank deposits, subtract bank deposits from the total on the 1099 thus arrive at Uber/Lyft fees then list that amount as a deduction. For 2018, I seem to recall that both of them noted the fees paid on your "Tax Summary"



M62 said:


> You're saying it's the same with the cab?


It is similar. I report one hundred per-cent of the meter plus the tips. I list the fees that I pay to the cab company (as well as for insurance, which you buy through the cab companies in the District of Columbia) as a deduction. The fees that I pay to the cab company are the same every week. Of course, I list gasolene, repairs, supplies, blah, blah, blah, blah as deductions, as well. I own my cab, so I list all expenses

Those who rent their cabs pay for their own gasolene, but all the other expenses usually are included in the rent. There are some companies where the insurance and fees are not included in the rent, but, the driver pays those at the same window where he pays the rent. A rental driver would not list repairs or maintenance, as those are the responsibility of the owner.

Even if the driver rents from the cab company, he affiliates by contract with the cab company. The rental contract and driver contract are treated separately. For those of us who are owners, we have only the driver contract.

The cab companies have done this to avoid being held liable for the misdeeds of their drivers. Thanks to the lawyers, the courts, politicians and regulators have eroded this, over time. Despite this, the independent contractor model remains in this market. Many other markets utilise it, as well. There are some markets where drivers are employees. There are some markets where the companies take the whole payment, deduct a portion and pay the balance to the driver. Many markets, however, follow the model in mine. In my market, this model has obtained for many years. Uber and Lyft thought that they had something "new" with this "independent contractor" model.


----------



## KMANDERSON (Jul 19, 2015)

SHalester said:


> We should strike.


That will accomplish nothing.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

KMANDERSON said:


> That will accomplish nothing.


my post was laced with sarcasm. First this forum doesn't represent the drivers at large in ANY way. Second, even if organized here, there would be no impact at all due to low numbers.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

M62 said:


> But if you're expecting ethics from large companies, you may be disappointed.





M62 said:


> Big companies are usually not interested in ethics. They're interested in making money. They just like to virtue signal, sometimes.


When it comes to treating their workers like crap, Uber and most of the other gig companies are among the very worst. One of the very few industries that treats their workers worse than Uber are courier companies that use alleged IC drivers. Commission theft is rampant in the courier business.

Cutting workers' pay is uncommon even among ethically-challenged large companies. These piece of shit "gig" companies have turned pay cuts and other anti-worker actions into an art form. They're a throwback to the bad old days before workers' protections became the law of the land.


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> In the real world, Regina "agrees" to LARRY'S contract, unlike drivers who "agree" to UBER'S contract.


Right, we agree with Uber/Lyft's contract, just like David agrees to Larry's contract. As I said, just like us, David is an (independent) sub-contractor.


Nats121 said:


> Nonsense.


Compelling argument.


Nats121 said:


> Larry's a true IC while the drivers are employees.


Balderdash!
(Did I do that right?)


Nats121 said:


> IC status as it's practiced in the US and the Western World is a tax-evasion scam in most cases.


I don't entirely disagree with this, but that doesn't make us any less of an IC.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

KenLV said:


> Right, we agree with Uber/Lyft's contract, just like David agrees to Larry's contract. As I said, just like us, David is an (independent) sub-contractor.


Uber has never referred to themselves as a "contractor". They've never referred to the drivers as "subcontractors". They've used the terms "consumers" (pax) and "partners" (drivers), and more recently they requested and received permission from our "watchdog" SEC to refer to the drivers as their "customers". So your attempt to equate the drivers' relationship to Uber with David's relationship to Larry doesn't wash. It's apples and oranges.


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

M62 said:


> Uber and Lyft are not like Larry. Larry is a contractor. I.e, he is a company that performs work, but farms some (or all) of it out to others. This would be analogous to a taxi company that takes bookings and gives them to independent drivers. Uber and Lyft claim they are not taxi companies. But third party brokers linking drivers with customers.


As you said, Larry might farm all the work out. No analogy is going ot be perfect, but how is he any different from Uber/Lyft in that way.



M62 said:


> David presumably gets a better description of the job before he takes it than the average Uber driver does.


I don't disagree, as a matter of fact I said as much in the very same post you quoted from:


KenLV said:


> AB5 is crap, but what I'd love to see is legislation that ALL drivers get up-front estimates and minimum guarantees of what the ride will pay and entail BEFORE they accept.
> 
> I've seen that they've done this in (some?) Cali markets.
> 
> ...


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Boca Ratman said:


> Uber


In your agreement with them, can you show where they say that you're guaranteed the majority of the surge?


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

KenLV said:


> In your agreement with them, can you show where they say that you're guaranteed the majority of the surge?


Ugh... i shouldn't have used the word guarantee. They IMPLY it, just like just about everything else uber it's ambiguous. I never said it was in our terms of service. I don't know what is says regarding surge pay.

I just went back and looked and the trip receipts have been changed yet again. I know there are several screenshots posted on this site that include the language I'm referencing. I'm not going to look, I know it used to be there.

On longer surged trips, it used to say something like 
Surge adjustment: $11.43 ( this includes the $4.00 surge plus $7.43 to ensure you receive a majority of the fare) 
On some trips, in addition to the surge adjustment there would be a "share adjustment". With similar language in the description. (Trip was adjusted to ensure...)

My point is, I think it's a legit argument that Uber does not tell us which rides will be or are eligible for the added/adjusted surge. They get by with letting us know we are guaranteed at least $X.XX .

Last year, big event. $8-$12 surges. I picked up a long distance trip. $8.50 attached.

I was parked 2 miles or so away out of the surge area, I did this so I would know that the trip was actually surged if it came in with a surge.

I get the request, 45+ with the $8.50 surge attached. It was a 70 mile trip. When I completed it, all I got was the $8.50. The rider paid a flat rate. I'm not sure what happened, I'm guessing I had a surge attached prior or where i was parked had surged or it was uber manipulation, doesn't matter. I just know I got 8.50 a d no adjustment.

I've also had trips where I got adjustments well beyond what I was expecting. One I recall was a $6.00 surge. Trip was 6 or 7 miles. I got a surge adjustment and a fare adjustment. It wound up paying around $40.00 there was adjusted surge pay AND a share adjustment. I was only expecting $6.00.

They should have to tell us when a surged trip is eligible for adjustment. It should be the ToS. 
We should always know exactly how we are going to be paid. Surged rides aren't random bonuses, the rates are changed and we have the right to know how much we're being paid at all times.

You don't go to work, clock in and get random hourly wages, random over time pay and random pay increases for random hours throughout the day. You know before you clock in, how you are being paid.

It's bs that uber doesn't always let us know. There should never be guessing, I do not see how it is legal to withhold this information, even when it is in our favor.












KenLV said:


> In your agreement with them, can you show where they say that you're guaranteed the majority of the surge?


I found one easily. I was wrong it says significant not majority. As per usual, more ambiguity.

Regardless, we should never not know how we are being compensated. That is my argument.


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## SAM.O (Mar 23, 2019)

IRME4EVER said:


> I know for a fact that Uber makes more than the drivers. Look at your cheap rides, we make 2.37 Uber makes 4.00+. Wake up!! We are getting sick and tired of being screwed over!! It's our cars, our rideshare insurance cost, our maintenance, our yearly tags. Most of all our car payments.


So, what are you going to do about it?


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Boca Ratman said:


> We should always know exactly how we are going to be paid.


We do know "*how* we are going to be paid", we just know know "*how much* we are going to be paid".

I agree that we should know how much; I've said so twice already in this very thread...


KenLV said:


> AB5 is crap, but what I'd love to see is legislation that ALL drivers get up-front estimates and minimum guarantees of what the ride will pay and entail BEFORE they accept.
> 
> I've seen that they've done this in (some?) Cali markets.
> 
> ...


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## Da Ub (Oct 29, 2016)

SHalester said:


> only one thing matters: did uber pay you what they last agreed to pay you for time, mileage and other? Because if they did, the only party that can complain is the paying customer.


Sorry pal when I signed up the rates were 2.15 per mile and no one is getting that now &#128514;


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> If you are "observing" something, do kindly show me where I stated "I am going to 'knock down' your position" or words similar.


Riiiiiiiight, because people using logical fallacies typically announce it, lol.

Yeah, that's not how it works.

Besides, if you watched that video I posted for you, you already know that someone using logical fallacies doesn't have to be consciously aware that they are doing it.

Now you may have been doing it unintentionally/unaware you were doing it, the first time, but after being shown exactly how you were misstating my case, you continued to purposefully misstate it in the exact same way multiple times so as to refute it (btw, THIS is the observable fact I referred to).

I'm giving you the benefit of doubt for the first instance, but for the subsequent times, the principle of Occam's razor tells us that you likely did it intentionally (or you're an idiot. While I can't prove it, I do not believe you're an idiot.:inlove


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

The rules around the world for employee and contractor are so simple. 
When some one is getting paid per time for the task he/she has completed, then that someone is classified as employee. 
As for contractor, the amount of money for the task should be offered upfront but it should not be based on estimated time he/she needs to complete the task and it should be fixed amount except honoring bonuses. 
Model of Uber and Lyft payout are created by themselves and state authorities don't agree to it. So they are using AB5 to against it. Then Uber and Lyft really need to introduce another model.


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> When some one is getting paid per time for the task he/she has completed, then that someone is classified as employee.


LOL, I'm sure you have a source you can quote for this, right?
Forget "the world", let's stick to the US.

BTW, here's a good idea of what the IRS thinks about this...

https://www.kingsleykingsley.com/2014/irs-20-factor-test
Reminder: We are paid *per task* (trip completed or cancelled).


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

KenLV said:


> Reminder: We are paid *per task* (trip completed or cancelled).


Drivers are paid per time for a task. When a rider cancelled, drivers didn't get the fares he/she was supposed to get for the task. That is a broken breach of the task if drivers are ICs.


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> Drivers are paid per time for a task. When a rider cancelled, drivers didn't get the fares he/she was supposed to get for the task. That is a broken breach of the task if drivers are ICs.


You are confusing an hourly wage with a per task rate that considers time as a component of the compensation. We are still paid per task.

The time and miles it takes to complete that task is what determines how much we are paid *for that task.*

You keep making the claim that because time is a component of our per task rate of pay, we are "hourly employees"; so please show me where any in effect law or the IRS says that the time it takes to perform a task can't be a factor in how an IC is paid.

As far as cancels, it's clearly stated in your agreement what happens when a rider cancels and how you are compensated. So long as U/L meet that obligation, there is no breach.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

KenLV said:


> Riiiiiiiight, because people using logical fallacies typically announce it,


.........except that you have failed to demonstrate it.........................

Yeah, that's not how it works.



KenLV said:


> if you watched that video I posted for you


What is the equivalent of "TL;dr" for a video?

, you already know that someone using logical fallacies doesn't have to be consciously aware that they are doing it.



KenLV said:


> after being shown


............except that I have not been "shown" anything.......................



KenLV said:


> purposefully


The only way that you would know that is if you could read my mind. If you consider it a safe bet that you would not know me if you saw me.............................


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

KenLV said:


> We do know "*how* we are going to be paid", we just know know "*how much* we are going to be paid".
> 
> I agree that we should know how much; I've said so twice already in this very thread...


So you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Got it.


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## Ek3333 (Oct 22, 2015)

Uber Lyft is no contractors, they are basically brokers with setting prices for riders and drivers , but price with surge drivers getting extra $3-5 bucks , while riders pay double or triple of original fare

For example short trip riders pay around $8, drivers $4, with surge 2X rider pay $16, driver paid $4 plus surge $2 or $4, with 3X surge rider pay $24 driver gets $3 to $6 additional... all we need is Fair Fare or be paid more while working during pandemic COVID-19 
By the way Lyft doesn't show riders payment...


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Boca Ratman said:


> So you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Got it.


No, I corrected you because you made a false claim (that we are guaranteed the majority of a surge fare), and then an incorrect statement (that we don't know how we are paid).

So I'm arguing for the sake of accuracy. Got it?


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Da Ub said:


> Sorry pal when I signed up the rates were 2.15 per mile and no one is getting that now


sorry back. You agreed to an 'agreement' and that can be change by a single party with 30 days notice. One isn't forced to agree to go online and they can say 'hell no' and that will be that on that platform.


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

KenLV said:


> No, I corrected you because you made a false claim (that we are guaranteed the majority of a surge fare), and then an incorrect statement (that we don't know how we are paid).
> 
> So I'm arguing for the sake of accuracy. Got it?


No, you didn't correct me.

Also, we do not know how the added/adjusted surge fare is calculated. We do not know on which trips it it is going to be applied. Therefore we do not know how our pay is calculated on every ride.


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## Ek3333 (Oct 22, 2015)

I want return back surge when multiple 2x or 3x or 1,5x that will helps a lot specially with longer trips


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> .........except that you have failed to demonstrate it.........................


LOL, I've literally "demonstrated" it every time you misstated my position and I corrected you.

To summarize:
*Me*: These people are incapable of being self employed. They should do something else, like drive a taxi, limo, truck, etc...
*You*: You said they should drive a taxi and be self employed. You can't be an employee where I am and drive a taxi. You are self employed. Therefore your position is flawed.
*Me*: No, my position is that these people shouldn't be self employed. Driving a taxi is simply part of a list of possible alternatives.
*You*: If you drive a taxi where I am and in other places, you are self employed. Therefore your position is flawed.
*Me*: ...but that's not my position; my position is that they aren't capable of being self employed and should *do something else*, NOT that they have to drive a taxi.
*You*: You said they could drive a taxi, but I'm telling you that they can't do that everywhere. Therefore your premise is flawed.
*Me*: That's a strawman argument because that isn't my position at all.
*You*: So you can read my mind?
*Me*: It's not mind reading, it's deductive reasoning.
*You*: You could only know this if you're reading my mind.
*Me*: *_*


Another Uber Driver said:


> Yeah, that's not how it works.


That's exactly how this works.


Another Uber Driver said:


> ............except that I have not been "shown" anything.......................


LOL, I've literally "showed" it every time you misstated my position and I corrected you. (See "demonstrated" above)
Your continued failure to acknowledge/comprehend this, is part of your problem.


Another Uber Driver said:


> What is the equivalent of "TL;dr" for a video?


I don't know, but it's certainly telling that you think a *TWO MINUTE* video is "too long".


Another Uber Driver said:


> The only way that you would know that is if you could read my mind.


I already addressed this as well: there is no mind reading involved, it's simply the principle of Occam's razor. A perfectly acceptable tool used in deductive reasoning.

At this rate, I may have to rethink and quickly reverse _this_ position though:


KenLV said:


> While I can't prove it, I do not believe you're an idiot.


So there you go, you may actually be able to prove me wrong on something. Congratulations.:thumbup:


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

KenLV said:


> I've literally "demonstrated" it every time you misstated my position and I corrected you.


False..............



KenLV said:


> To summarize:


Your little "summary" put words on my keyboard. This helps you to make whatever case it is that you are trying to make.



KenLV said:


> That's exactly how this works.


That was actually something that you posted that got by me, I meant to edit out the sentence. There should be one clue therein that a guy who considers himself such a sage should see that would indicate to him that I did not type that.

,


KenLV said:


> I've literally "showed" it


False.



KenLV said:


> it's certainly telling that you think a *TWO MINUTE* video is "too long"


Not only can you read my mind, but also you get to determine what is worth my bother, -eh?
.



KenLV said:


> At this rate, I may have to rethink and quickly reverse _this_ position though:So there you go, you may actually be able to prove me wrong on something.


Name calling, even if indirect, is the last resort of those who do not have a point; whatever your "point" is.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

There is a simple solution if you don't like what Uber and or Lyft pay stop driving for them.

If enough drivers turn the app off maybe something will change. If not let Uber and Lyft fail for lack of drivers.

If one is really unhappy they could start their own company and pay the drivers more. Could another company compete and not go out of business? Hard to say, it would definitely be a struggle. Uber and Lyft both had intentions of going public, yo do that they had to increase market share and or volume. They did that by sacrificing driver loyalty and pay. They are not in business to make drivers money, they are in business to collect a pay check, bonuses, and possibly make shareholders money. Right now they are concentrating on shareholders because ultimately they will fund future pet projects and bonuses.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

FLKeys said:


> and possibly make shareholders money.


...actually that is all Uber and such need to do. Everything else is secondary.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

How about making driver rates the same all over the country.

Base Rate: $3.00
Distance: $1.50 per mile
Time: $0.25 per minute

Long Pick-up fee starts after 3 miles regardless of time to get that 3 miles.

Wait time: $0.50 per minute after 2 minutes at pick-up spot, and stops automatically at 5 minutes and gives the driver the option to continue waiting at no additional per minute or cancel for base rate plus wait time plus long pick-up time and miles.

Wait time for requested stops: $0.50 per minute

Minimum fare: $6.00


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