# Looong trip for 39%



## UBERBLACKXTS (Aug 26, 2017)

I'm relatively new to the whole ubering situation but I just got taken for a ride by this Corp. I started back in March mostly doing airport runs after work. This past Wed. I got a ping @ 1:30am for my final run of the night. When the pax got in I asked the usual questions about their night and where they were heading. The response was "your taking all my money right now!" I looked on my app and the destination was in Philadelphia! I looked on her phone and it said she was paying $841 for the trip. I have a regular job and had to be to work in the afternoon. They pleaded for me to pls take them so I said "hell, why not." I drove over 5 hrs. and 350 miles to their destination only to have uber pay me $326 for it while they pocketed $510 for "service fees." They didnt even pay me correctly for my tolls. I was wondering if there is any recourse for this BS. I drove for 11hrs, paid all tolls, and they claim they deserve 61% of what the rider Paid!


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

UBERBLACKXTS said:


> I'm relatively new to the whole ubering situation but I just got taken for a ride by this Corp. I started back in March mostly doing airport runs after work. This past Wed. I got a ping @ 1:30am for my final run of the night. When the pax got in I asked the usual questions about their night and where they were heading. The response was "your taking all my money right now!" I looked on my app and the destination was in Philadelphia! I looked on her phone and it said she was paying $841 for the trip. I have a regular job and had to be to work in the afternoon. They pleaded for me to pls take them so I said "hell, why not." I drove over 5 hrs. and 350 miles to their destination only to have uber pay me $326 for it while they pocketed $510 for "service fees." They didnt even pay me correctly for my tolls. I was wondering if there is any recourse for this BS. I drove for 11hrs, paid all tolls, and they claim they deserve 61% of what the rider Paid!


Well this is what you agreed to,

You do not get a % of the trip, you get per mile per minute as agreed upon, X% of your tolls not reimbursed and uber can charge the customer whatever they want with absolutely no rhyme or reason.

This is standard these days.

Your choice is to quit or keep getting walked all over.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

In my car 700 miles is $175. That would have made me $150 net in about 11 hours, which is standard for this, although I find sitting on the highway for long periods mentally taxing (basically my brain starts to melt due to the intense boredom of it).

I imagine many drivers in your scenario would have, despite it being against the rules, told the passenger that if they can pay $600 cash you would do it. Then it's worth everyone's time. Uber did not deserve $510 for that whatsoever.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Even with Fuel accounted for, on round trip, you made $24 an hour. For just driving, which there are 210 million people in America that are qualified to do. 5 hours of which you didn't have to worry about entertaining a pax, or if a pax would puke in your car.

Drivers in many markets would kill to get paid $24 an hour for 11 hours, where as 5.5 hours of that time is with no entitled or obnoxious pax in their back seat...



ShinyAndChrome said:


> In my car 700 miles is $175. That would have made me $150 net in about 11 hours, which is standard for this, although I find sitting on the highway for long periods mentally taxing (basically my brain starts to melt due to the intense boredom of it).
> 
> I imagine many drivers in your scenario would have, despite it being against the rules, told the passenger that if they can pay $600 cash you would do it. Then it's worth everyone's time. Uber did not deserve $510 for that whatsoever.


Are you saying your car gets 12 miles to the gallon?


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## NoDay (Jul 25, 2017)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> In my car 700 miles is $175. That would have made me $150 net in about 11 hours, which is standard for this, although I find sitting on the highway for long periods mentally taxing (basically my brain starts to melt due to the intense boredom of it).
> 
> I imagine many drivers in your scenario would have, despite it being against the rules, told the passenger that if they can pay $600 cash you would do it. Then it's worth everyone's time. Uber did not deserve $510 for that whatsoever.


I would negotiate the fee on this as well. If I had someone looking to go from tulsa to norman or OKC, that wouldn't be that bad as long as its an XL/plus ride. Otherwise we can negotiate off the books run.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> Even with Fuel accounted for, on round trip, you made $24 an hour. For just driving, which there are 210 million people in America that are qualified to do. 5 hours of which you didn't have to worry about entertaining a pax, or if a pax would puke in your car.
> 
> Drivers in many markets would kill to get paid $24 an hour for 11 hours, where as 5.5 hours of that time is with no entitled or obnoxious pax in their back seat...
> 
> Are you saying your car gets 12 miles to the gallon?


No; are you saying your only running costs are gas? Have you calculated what you actually pay per mile in added depreciation or maintenance? Every car I've ever seen is worth less in resale as miles are increased and I've never seen one that didn't consume tires, brakes, and oil.


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## RealCheetahz (Jun 6, 2017)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> No; are you saying your only running costs are gas? Have you calculated what you actually pay per mile in added depreciation or maintenance? Every car I've ever seen is worth less in resale as miles are increased and I've never seen one that didn't consume tires, brakes, and oil.


.54/mil the government pays covers all of that. Depreciation is part of the game, it just happens more quickly. And after a certain year the deprecitation is very little no matter the miles.


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## UberProphet? (Dec 24, 2014)

RealCheetahz said:


> .54/mil the government pays covers all of that. Depreciation is part of the game, it just happens more quickly. And after a certain year the deprecitation is very little no matter the miles.


Repeat after me "As depreciation goes down, maintenance costs go up."


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

RealCheetahz said:


> .54/mil the government pays covers all of that. Depreciation is part of the game, it just happens more quickly. And after a certain year the deprecitation is very little no matter the miles.


Yes, I know, but it seemed steve was only considering cost of gas being the total cost of miles.



UberProphet? said:


> Repeat after me "As depreciation goes down, maintenance costs go up."


This is certainly true, but definitely not as quickly. 0-100k miles will cost you way more in depreciation + repairs than 100-200k will cost you in depreciation + repairs, in most cases.


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## UBERBLACKXTS (Aug 26, 2017)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> In my car 700 miles is $175. That would have made me $150 net in about 11 hours, which is standard for this, although I find sitting on the highway for long periods mentally taxing (basically my brain starts to melt due to the intense boredom of it).
> 
> I imagine many drivers in your scenario would have, despite it being against the rules, told the passenger that if they can pay $600 cash you would do it. Then it's worth everyone's time. Uber did not deserve $510 for that whatsoever.


Yeah...That's definitely never gonna happen again. I learned my lesson the hard way the first time around. From now on its gonna be beneficial for me and the pax only, and Uber will get paid a 61% service fee of $0.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

UBERBLACKXTS said:


> they claim they deserve 61% of what the rider Paid!


They do deserve it. Business 101 - charge your customer as much as they're willing to pay and pay your suppliers the minimum they're prepared to sell for.


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## UBERBLACKXTS (Aug 26, 2017)

Well then they shouldn't be shocked when this happens. "Business 101"- cut out the middleman, increase my profit margin.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

UBERBLACKXTS said:


> Well then they shouldn't be shocked when this happens. "Business 101"- cut out the middleman, increase my profit margin.


Exactly. If you have commercial insurance then cut them out and take the money for yourself.


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## AlexB (May 29, 2017)

Oh hell no. Im glad i caught this post. Under no circumstances am i accepting a long ride like that now. None whstsoever. Pax would have to pay me upfront for gas and motel for me to even think about it. 

To those defending uber taking 60% of the fare u are tripping balls. A driver driving 5.5 hours each way....the miles on the car, the gas, the tolls they also apparently didnt do right...i mean my god. Theres zero reason to accept those rides knowing this. So the longer a pax is in ur car the more they charge the rider but cut the actual driver out of it? Horseshit. No beyond horseshit. I will NEVER take a multi hour trip one way to have uber or lyft say thanks for all that work you did we're gonna give you 40% of the fare. 

What exactly is uber doing while that pax is in ur backseat? NOTHING. They facilitated the meeting between you and the rider. They have overhead i get it, they need to make money. But they're using OUR cars and OUR labor. For an app that says go here and wait for someone to get in ur car. Taking more than 30% of those fares is bullshit. Someones gonna make apps for specific locales and the buh bye uber/lyft


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

AlexB said:


> Oh hell no. Im glad i caught this post. Under no circumstances am i accepting a long ride like that now. None whstsoever. Pax would have to pay me upfront for gas and motel for me to even think about it.
> 
> To those defending uber taking 60% of the fare u are tripping balls. A driver driving 5.5 hours each way....the miles on the car, the gas, the tolls they also apparently didnt do right...i mean my god. Theres zero reason to accept those rides knowing this. So the longer a pax is in ur car the more they charge the rider but cut the actual driver out of it? Horseshit. No beyond horseshit. I will NEVER take a multi hour trip one way to have uber or lyft say thanks for all that work you did we're gonna give you 40% of the fare.
> 
> What exactly is uber doing while that pax is in ur backseat? NOTHING. They facilitated the meeting between you and the rider. They have overhead i get it, they need to make money. But they're using OUR cars and OUR labor. For an app that says go here and wait for someone to get in ur car. Taking more than 30% of those fares is bullshit. Someones gonna make apps for specific locales and the buh bye uber/lyft


Pure, sublime truth.


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## Buddywannarideagain (Jun 29, 2017)

Woulda done it for $500 CASH


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## UBERBLACKXTS (Aug 26, 2017)

AlexB said:


> Oh hell no. Im glad i caught this post. Under no circumstances am i accepting a long ride like that now. None whstsoever. Pax would have to pay me upfront for gas and motel for me to even think about it.
> 
> To those defending uber taking 60% of the fare u are tripping balls. A driver driving 5.5 hours each way....the miles on the car, the gas, the tolls they also apparently didnt do right...i mean my god. Theres zero reason to accept those rides knowing this. So the longer a pax is in ur car the more they charge the rider but cut the actual driver out of it? Horseshit. No beyond horseshit. I will NEVER take a multi hour trip one way to have uber or lyft say thanks for all that work you did we're gonna give you 40% of the fare.
> 
> What exactly is uber doing while that pax is in ur backseat? NOTHING. They facilitated the meeting between you and the rider. They have overhead i get it, they need to make money. But they're using OUR cars and OUR labor. For an app that says go here and wait for someone to get in ur car. Taking more than 30% of those fares is bullshit. Someones gonna make apps for specific locales and the buh bye uber/lyft


I'm glad there are actual humans in this conversation and not just Uber fan-boys. There is no way someone would say no to saving money for a trip that costs that much, especially if they found out the true reason has nothing to do with the person behind the wheel. There are plenty of other options out there. None of which have me going out and buying commercial insurance for trips that happen once a year at best. If they don't want to be reasonable then I'll wish them good luck and tell them to GTFO!


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## u-Boat (Jan 4, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Exactly. If you have commercial insurance then cut them out and take the money for yourself.


Or... do what tens of thousands of other X drivers are already doing and cut out the commercial insurance as well. Ride that gypsy gauntlet and hope you stay clean while rolling dirty. Might as well roll them dice... you're goin broke regardless!


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## dirtylee (Sep 2, 2015)

ATM are 24hr. Yes, credit cards work in them too.


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## Bphelps (Aug 31, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> Even with Fuel accounted for, on round trip, you made $24 an hour. For just driving, which there are 210 million people in America that are qualified to do. 5 hours of which you didn't have to worry about entertaining a pax, or if a pax would puke in your car.
> 
> Drivers in many markets would kill to get paid $24 an hour for 11 hours, where as 5.5 hours of that time is with no entitled or obnoxious pax in their back seat...
> 
> Are you saying your car gets 12 miles to the gallon?


Don't forget about destination drive on way back.


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## Friendly Jack (Nov 17, 2015)

Bphelps said:


> Don't forget about destination drive on way back.


DF doesn't help that far away. You can't pick up outside of your home municipal location.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

RealCheetahz said:


> .54/mil the government pays covers all of that. Depreciation is part of the game, it just happens more quickly. And after a certain year the deprecitation is very little no matter the miles.


The government does not pay 54 cents per mile. They deduct that from your income that you owe taxes on. Unless you pay a 100% tax rate, the amount you save on your taxes is a lot less... maybe 10.8 cents a mile if you pay a 20% tax rate.


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## hulksmash (Apr 26, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> They do deserve it. Business 101 - charge your customer as much as they're willing to pay and pay your suppliers the minimum they're prepared to sell for.


The problem is that while we no longer work on a commission, the rates we are paid are 75% of the published time and mileage rates for each market. Those rates are also posted in the Uber app. As a customer I would tell Uber to recalculate my fare based on the time and distance that it took, if the quoted fare plus booking fee/airport fee/tolls was much higher.

This upfront fare scheme is simply a way to charge customers more without a rate increase. It's a slap in the face for drivers because for many years Uber continued to lower fares claiming it was necessary to keep customers happy, while at the same time increasing the booking fees to cover their losses. Now they go against their own logic by increasing fares again, and cutting drivers out of the increase. So much for keeping customers happy.


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## hulksmash (Apr 26, 2016)

You should always look to take a route that adds miles AND that decreases time or has no significant increase to it. You don't cost the rider any real time and you get more money while the riders fare stays the same. You get more of what the rider pays and less of it going to Uber. If done right you can increase your share of what the rider pays.

Know what the riders fare should be using your markets rates (plus any surge) and time and distance per your navigation app. If the riders fare is much higher than the calculated fare, have the pax change their destination to a nearby location. As long as you take the most direct route, the rider will save money, while your pay stays the same. Anytime you do a destination change, even to the building next door, the upfront price is gone and the fare is calculated based on actual time and distance. This saves the riders money and cuts Uber commission back to 25%


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

hulksmash said:


> The problem is that while we no longer work on a commission, the rates we are paid are 75% of the published time and mileage rates for each market. Those rates are also posted in the Uber app. As a customer I would tell Uber to recalculate my fare based on the time and distance that it took, if the quoted fare plus booking fee/airport fee/tolls was much higher.


Uber also states that they may increase prices over and above the base rates. Pax promotions aside, the rates they publish are the minimum that Uber is going to charge the pax. The pax agree to this in the pax contract.


> This upfront fare scheme is simply a way to charge customers more without a rate increase.


Of course. Their strategy was (1) to gradually push rates down until they found the minimum amounts drivers would drive for, then (2) lock in those driver rates by then de-linking driver pay from pax fares, then (3) raise fares. Quite simple, really.


> It's a slap in the face for drivers because for many years Uber continued to lower fares claiming it was necessary to keep customers happy, while at the same time increasing the booking fees to cover their losses. Now they go against their own logic by increasing fares again, and cutting drivers out of the increase.


Well, yes. But the sun rises in the East. Bears shit in the woods. Uber lies and deceives. It's just how things are. Polishing a turd is pointless, as is expecting sincerity from them.

When all is said and done, though, and trickery/deceit aside, what Uber did makes business sense. Raise prices & revenue and decrease labor cost. We don't like it because we are the labor, but it is a smart move on their part.


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## hulksmash (Apr 26, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Uber also states that they may increase prices over and above the base rates. Pax promotions aside, the rates they publish are the minimum that Uber is going to charge the pax. The pax agree to this in the pax contract.
> Of course. Their strategy was (1) to gradually push rates down until they found the minimum amounts drivers would drive for, then (2) lock in those driver rates by then de-linking driver pay from pax fares, then (3) raise fares. Quite simple, really.
> Well, yes. But the sun rises in the East. Bears shit in the woods. Uber lies and deceives. It's just how things are. Polishing a turd is pointless, as is expecting sincerity from them.
> 
> When all is said and done, though, and trickery/deceit aside, what Uber did makes business sense. Raise prices & revenue and decrease labor cost. We don't like it because we are the labor, but it is a smart move on their part.


Yes the base rates can be higher, that is what surge is for. The rates shown in the rider app update to reflect the surge. So at $2 a mile, or 2x surge (let's ignore time for now) a 10 mile ride should cost no more than $20 plus booking fee, and no other fee. lets say $22 give or take. If I see those rates, and an upfront charge of $30, I will complain to Uber that they didn't honor the table rates. Or I will change my destination to the house next door to make the fare based on actual time and distance.

If they had any business sense they would not continue to lose money hand over fist year after year. All those business decisions were made by Travis and look where he is now. Uber could've been a great company where drivers, riders, and Uber could've all benefited. Sure fares are higher and sure there are ants still willing to work for peanuts. However, Uber still faces a driver retention problem that they need to pay millions in incentives and bonuses to keep drivers in the road. If they had any business sense, they would pay drivers a high enough rate to where out of pocket incentives were no longer necessary. Drivers would make more, passengers would still pay what they're willing to pay now, and Uber would save big.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

hulksmash said:


> Yes the base rates can be higher, that is what surge is for. The rates shown in the rider app update to reflect the surge.


You must be using an old version of the rider app. The new version of the rider app after up front pricing was introduced shows only one figure, which is the up front price that Uber calculated for the pax; the price they agree to by clicking the Request button.


> If they had any business sense they would not continue to lose money hand over fist year after year.


Exactly, which is why they are increasing prices & revenue and decreasing driver pay via the phasing out or reduction of driver incentives.


> However, Uber still faces a driver retention problem that they need to pay millions in incentives and bonuses to keep drivers in the road.


This is why they are introducing the soft incentives of the 180 Days of Change program. More money isn't the only way to incentivize labor. Soft incentives are cost-neutral or very low cost to the company offering them. They make the worker feel that they are receiving real value, and in reality the company pays very little for them. The sad thing is that soft incentives actually work, so you get drivers marvelling at them. "Ooh look, we now get six destination filters per day. Wow!". As proof of this, here are some actual driver comments singing the praises of the 180 days soft incentives from right here in this forum:


Ghwwe72 said:


> Adding some additional features and having the smarts to maximize these features in my favor has also added to my earnings. Personally I think Uber's 180 days of change has been great and has been a game changer!





E30addixt said:


> Pretty much that. These changes might not be earth shattering, but they were all usable improvements that make our lives better.





ErkanAk said:


> I see 6 times a day we can use destination filter which is very good. Long live uber


"180 Days is a game changer", "Long live Uber" etc. Do you see what I mean?


> If they had any business sense, they would pay drivers a high enough rate to where out of pocket incentives were no longer necessary. Drivers would make more, passengers would still pay what they're willing to pay now, and Uber would save big.


Uber uses targeted promotions to manage its driver supply. Demand ebbs and flows throughout the week and throughout the day. This means that Uber can offer low pay during low demand hours when it does not demand many drivers, and higher pay when it needs to attract more drivers. This is required now that they have de-linked driver pay from pax fares, and are phasing out surge for driver pay while keeping surge for pax fares.


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## hulksmash (Apr 26, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> You must be using an old version of the rider app. The new version of the rider app after up front pricing was introduced shows only one figure, which is the up front price that Uber calculated for the pax; the price they agree to by clicking the Request button.
> Exactly, which is why they are increasing prices & revenue and decreasing driver pay via the phasing out or reduction of driver incentives.
> This is why they are introducing the soft incentives of the 180 Days of Change program. More money isn't the only way to incentivize labor. Soft incentives are cost-neutral or very low cost to the company offering them. They make the worker feel that they are receiving real value, and in reality the company pays very little for them. The sad thing is that soft incentives actually work, so you get drivers marvelling at them. "Ooh look, we now get six destination filters per day. Wow!". As proof of this, here are some actual driver comments singing the praises of the 180 days soft incentives from right here in this forum:
> 
> ...


The upfront charges are supposed to be based on the market rates. They're found in the new rider app, or on the website. The flat fares should be based on these rates. This screen shows the base fare in my area. During a surge, the rates will multiply by whatever the surge is, and will eventually return to this base level. 
If I do the math using the route that is based on, and type it into google maps, I can tell what my fare should cost. If Uber is trying to sneak in a several more dollars that is unaccounted for by any known fees, then I will as a customer complain to have the difference refunded. Why have posted rates and then charge over and above those rates without explanation? This is why drivers are purposely taking longer routes to get that extra cut they are being left out of.

As far as the 180 days of change, I admit those are nice, especially tipping and extra destination filters. While those are improvements, they do not address the core problem of low pay. Smart divers see things like stacked pings, airport rematch, etc, boost, quest, etc for what they are, which are surge killers. Drivers could make more money with surge and higher rates that what these incentives would pay, and it doesn't have to come out of Ubers bottom line, they would pass it on go pax as they should.

What sense does it make to keep making to pay a $500 sign up bonus for someone to give the minimum rides to earn it and then quit? At best they break even, or more often lose money. Or offering to pay a out of pocket boosts during high demand, thereby losing money on each ride, just so riders can get their cheap ride during high demand. It's like "okay drivers, we'll offer double the pay out of our pocket so our riders can still pay base, because we want to protect them from surge. We'll take the loss just to keep them happy"

I understand changing demand. I don't think prices should be higher all the time. My biggest beef with Uber is that they choose to artificially keep rates down by subsidizing fares and thereby taking losses during high demand, which suppresses wages for everyone. They could easily become profitable overnight if they just let market forces determine the rates for both riders and drivers, like how they used to back in the day, you know, before Travis screwed it all up


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

> Why have posted rates and then charge over and above those rates without explanation?


Uber would probably say, "because we can"


> If I do the math using the route that is based on, and type it into google maps, I can tell what my fare should cost. If Uber is trying to sneak in a several more dollars that is unaccounted for by any known fees, then I will as a customer complain to have the difference refunded.


The disclaimer attached to the bottom of the mileage/time rates on their website says, "You agree to pay the fare shown at booking". I agree this is weasel wording / presentation and it is designed to mislead pax.


> What sense does it make to keep making to pay a $500 sign up bonus for someone to give the minimum rides to earn it and then quit?


Agreed - someone with more business acumen than Travis realised that there is real value in driver retention, which is why the current management is making such a song and dance about making drivers happier and trying to get them to stay longer


> My biggest beef with Uber is that they choose to artificially keep rates down by subsidizing fares and thereby taking losses during high demand, which suppresses wages for everyone.


I don't see a lot of that here. During peak times here I see them taking large proportions of the revenue I bill for them.


> They could easily become profitable overnight if they just let market forces determine the rates for both riders and drivers, like how they used to back in the day, you know, before Travis screwed it all up


No; they've never made a profit, even when they simply took a percentage of the fare and charged a fixed booking fee to the pax.


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## hulksmash (Apr 26, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Uber would probably say, "because we can"
> The disclaimer attached to the bottom of the mileage/time rates on their website says, "You agree to pay the fare shown at booking". I agree this is weasel wording / presentation and it is designed to mislead pax.
> Agreed - someone with more business acumen than Travis realised that there is real value in driver retention, which is why the current management is making such a song and dance about making drivers happier and trying to get them to stay longer
> I don't see a lot of that here. During peak times here I see them taking large proportions of the revenue I bill for them.
> No; they've never made a profit, even when they simply took a percentage of the fare and charged a fixed booking fee to the pax.


They created a monster in which pax are paying premium rates for base level service. I know I am much more accommodating when I work for a higher rate. This negates the tipping feature since pax still think we make 75% of the fare, so naturally they will not tip thinking we are making more money. I don't care what my riders are paying if I'm getting peanuts. You only get the basics from me. This also leads to more skipped pings, cancellations, which lead customers to go to Lyft or elsewhere.

I also think Uber could and should have profited from taking 25% of the fare (when the rates were higher) plus a booking fee, if it wasn't for Travis' pipe dream of robot cars, constant lawsuits due to his duchebaggery, and his dream of trying to destroy all the competition with constant rate cuts and subsidies.


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## Brandon0315 (May 5, 2016)

I would have kept the app running until I was about two hours closer to my destination, possibly the entire way home depending on how froggy I was feeling. She would not have been charged any additional fees... if they reached out to me, it was an accident; if not, I've hit pay dirt.


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