# Ford Explorer bad water pump = Dead Engine



## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

On lunch break, watching the news and apparently Ford start designing their engines with the water pump on the inside.(Dumb ass Ford)

Anyway if you replace the water pump before failure a mechanic has to tear down the engine to get to it. If it goes bad in the engine IT KILLS THE ENTIRE ENGINE WTF :i'm mad:

Ford is actually refusing to help these people because their cars are outside of warranty once this happens. Millions are effected and a major class action lawsuit is in tow.

Please guys stay away from the used Fords.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> On lunch break, watching the news and apparently Ford start designing their engines with the water pump on the inside.(Dumb ass Ford)
> 
> Anyway if you replace the water pump before failure a mechanic has to tear down the engine to get to it. If it goes bad in the engine IT KILLS THE ENTIRE ENGINE WTF :i'm mad:
> 
> ...


Fix Or Repair Daily,
or it will be
Found On Road Dead,


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

All manufacturers are setting people up for failure. Like Toyota even with their lifetime transmission fluid nonsense when the actual manufacturer of the transmission recommends fluid change at 15,000 miles if I recall correctly, if you're using your car for heavy duty work like delivery or taxi.


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## BigRedDriver (Nov 28, 2018)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Fix Or Repair Daily,
> or it will be
> Found On Road Dead,


no, First On Race Day


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## IR12 (Nov 11, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> On lunch break, watching the news and apparently Ford start designing their engines with the water pump on the inside.(Dumb ass Ford)
> 
> Anyway if you replace the water pump before failure a mechanic has to tear down the engine to get to it. If it goes bad in the engine IT KILLS THE ENTIRE ENGINE WTF :i'm mad:
> 
> ...


News flash!!! American automobiles have been crap for DECADES.
Using a piece of crap for ridesharing is probably not a good idea.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

IR12 said:


> News flash!!! American automobiles have been crap for DECADES.
> Using a piece of crap for ridesharing is probably not a good idea.


Personally I drive Toyota or Honda but there is a huge following of drivers that swear by the cheaper the better mentality. Cough... Oldbay

This is the perfect example where even if you know how to wrench the cost of repair is too high.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

itsablackmarket said:


> All manufacturers are setting people up for failure. Like Toyota even with their lifetime transmission fluid nonsense when the actual manufacturer of the transmission recommends fluid change at 15,000 miles if I recall correctly, if you're using your car for heavy duty work like delivery or taxi.


Yeah my BMW says lifetime... Read the small print and they Consider lifetime to be 100k... tricky bastards... Good thing I never have trusted lifetime fluids in anything... That's just absurd... Metal shavings build up overtime... I don't care how it was built... Swap ya damn fluids on the regular.... 50k, or 75k at the outside...


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Btw here is the story I seen earlier but there are many more online.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ws...ing-to-unbelievably-costly-repairs/1011083993


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> On lunch break, watching the news and apparently Ford start designing their engines with the water pump on the inside.(Dumb ass Ford)
> 
> Anyway if you replace the water pump before failure a mechanic has to tear down the engine to get to it. If it goes bad in the engine IT KILLS THE ENTIRE ENGINE WTF :i'm mad:
> 
> ...


Sounds Idiotic to do that.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Ford DOES do somethings right,

Namely truck Chasis for use in tow trucks, heavy trucks ect.










They also have the only large van platform that's worth a darn, the Transit van.










So.. for specialist large platforms fords have a solid place.

Also for this crowd,










Ford may very likely find their niche to be making heavier chassis for the global economy,

Truthfully, if ford's niche is commercial truck chassis and pickup trucks.... that sounds like Ford to me...


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

tohunt4me said:


> Sounds Idiotic to do that.


They had a Ford tech on the news explain that Ford did it to save room under the hood :rollseyes: Dumb ass Ford


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> They had a Ford tech on the news explain that Ford did it to save room under the hood :rollseyes: Dumb ass Ford


They could put water pump in the trunk to save room under the hood !
Lot of cars have batteries in trunk or under back seat !


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## Wolfgang Faust (Aug 2, 2018)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> They had a Ford tech on the news explain that Ford did it to save room under the hood :rollseyes: Dumb ass Ford


Chevy put the oil pump inside the block on. Suburbans...


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

tohunt4me said:


> They could put water pump in the trunk to save room under the hood !
> Lot of cars have batteries in trunk or under back seat !


They could but let's be real, they did this as a cash grab. They took a routine job people would diy or get done at a local shop and turned it into a expensive dealership repair.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> They could but let's be real, they did this as a cash grab. They took a routine job people would diy or get done at a local shop and turned it into a expensive dealership repair.


And THATS why people buy Japanese.

Less " GAMES".

Good Luck on a 2nd " BAILOUT" American Auto !

Bye bye



Wolfgang Faust said:


> Chevy put the oil pump inside the block on. Suburbans...


Find the Engineer
And
Skin Him Alive !



TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> They could but let's be real, they did this as a cash grab. They took a routine job people would diy or get done at a local shop and turned it into a expensive dealership repair.


Hybrids( some hybrids) have a battery cooling system with fans and a pump in back of vehicle.

So it is Very possible to do so.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

My Explorer has gone 210000 miles with no problem so far. 

Now that I know the problem, I am planning to do a preemptiv replacement


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## troothequalstroll (Oct 12, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Fix Or Repair Daily,
> or it will be
> Found On Road Dead,


i had a ford exploder back in the day lasted me 16 years cross country with it wasnt so bad on repairs had to let it go when it would only go in reverse then again some hater put sugar in the gas tank about 4 years in & had to replace engine fuel lines gas tank so maybe it was the new engine

i think most folks problem occurs cuz they dont do regular maintence, every car i owned oil changes every 2 months, the uber ride gets it every month

run em till u cant run em no more, no note beats note everyday of the week

u live & u learn minvan mafia 4 life now, pulled over once a year instead of once a month so its literally a life saver


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## kingcorey321 (May 20, 2018)

ok here is a article .
the deal with this water pump the timing chain drives it. a stupid idea . water pumps wear out and that chain will get loose from that wear.
you will not know there is a problem it may not even leak fluid. the chain jumps and the timing goes off all at once . the valves hit the top of the pistons crashing the engine . your screwed . ticking time bombs. if you own this engine sell it .
http://fordauthority.com/2019/08/ford-lawsuit-over-duratec-v6-due-to-water-pump/


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

Another reason to buy a Ford:laugh::laugh::laugh: re


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

kingcorey321 said:


> ok here is a article .
> the deal with this water pump the timing chain drives it. a stupid idea . water pumps wear out and that chain will get loose from that wear.
> you will not know there is a problem it may not even leak fluid. the chain jumps and the timing goes off all at once . the valves hit the top of the pistons crashing the engine . your screwed . ticking time bombs. if you own this engine sell it .
> http://fordauthority.com/2019/08/ford-lawsuit-over-duratec-v6-due-to-water-pump/


The article you poste dosent talk about the chain either "jumping" as you put it, what it says is that it may leak and the owner can't see the leak. The engine over heats and the enjoined fails

The leaking coolant mixes with the oil so in addition to no cooling, there is no lubrication either.

To compound the problem the temperature gauge is not always displayed on the dash. It's in there, but the operator can choose to display it or not so at least on my case I wouldn't see the engine temp until it's too late


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> They could but let's be real, they did this as a cash grab. They took a routine job people would diy or get done at a local shop and turned it into a expensive dealership repair.


Exactly, 
Maybe finance extra 5000k repair bills through the ford credit union&#128512; they make money


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

oldfart said:


> My Explorer has gone 210000 miles with no problem so far.
> 
> Now that I know the problem, I am planning to do a preemptiv replacement


You have to break down the engine to get to the water pump &#128551;


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## losiglow (Dec 4, 2018)

I wouldn't say all Fords are bad. Like any car, you have to do research on it before you buy. An auto manufacturer may make both good and bad vehicles. 

Toyota had problems with sludge buildup on their early 2000 V6's due to "hot spots" which could then starve the engine of oil. And Honda/Acura had notorious transmission problems from 1998 - 2006 on a bunch of vehicles including the Accord, Odyssey and TL. Yet the majority of Toyota and Honda's other vehicles were great. 

Heck, you can find reliable BMW's and MB's if you do some research. Granted, most of them are older ones - back when there's wasn't all the crazy technology like air suspensions and penny pinching tactics like using plastic water pump impellers, turbo waste-gates and blow-off valves.


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## kingcorey321 (May 20, 2018)

oldfart said:


> The article you poste dosent talk about the chain either "jumping" as you put it, what it says is that it may leak and the owner can't see the leak. The engine over heats and the enjoined fails
> 
> The leaking coolant mixes with the oil so in addition to no cooling, there is no lubrication either.
> 
> To compound the problem the temperature gauge is not always displayed on the dash. It's in there, but the operator can choose to display it or not so at least on my case I wouldn't see the engine temp until it's too late


lol yes i was looking at a different article as well . that was for a general motors product about the chain.
end result on both screwed over . sorry about your car .


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

losiglow said:


> I wouldn't say all Fords are bad. Like any car, you have to do research on it before you buy. An auto manufacturer may make both good and bad vehicles.
> 
> Toyota had problems with sludge buildup on their early 2000 V6's due to "hot spots" which could then starve the engine of oil. And Honda/Acura had notorious transmission problems from 1998 - 2006 on a bunch of vehicles including the Accord, Odyssey and TL. Yet the majority of Toyota and Honda's other vehicles were great.
> 
> Heck, you can find reliable BMW's and MB's if you do some research. Granted, most of them are older ones - back when there's wasn't all the crazy technology like air suspensions and penny pinching tactics like using plastic water pump impellers, turbo waste-gates and blow-off valves.


Yea but Ford has a long history of transmission troubles across its entire lineup. It really didn't need to add engine problems to that.

This problem is in more than Explorers it's many vehicles across the lineup including the Taurus, F150, and Fusion. Really any Ford with the *Duratec V6 engine.*


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## losiglow (Dec 4, 2018)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Yea but Ford has a long history of transmission troubles across its entire lineup. It really didn't need to add engine problems to that.
> 
> This problem is in more than Explorers it's many vehicles across the lineup including the Taurus, F150, and Fusion. Really any Ford with the *Duratec V6 engine.*


I wonder why they'd put the water pump in such a dumb location.

I'm glad my last two vehicles, and the two I own currently, have the J-series Honda V6. It's such an easy engine to work on. Everything is easily accessible. Simple, no-frills design. And no plastic garbage.


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## njn (Jan 23, 2016)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> They also have the only large van platform that's worth a darn, the Transit van.


except the axles literally fall off, happened to an acquaintance on the nj turnpike.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/06/28/ford-transit-recall/434934001/


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

tohunt4me said:


> Good Luck on a 2nd " BAILOUT" American Auto !


Just an fyi: Ford did not participate in the auto bailout.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Uber's Guber said:


> Just an fyi: Ford did not participate in the auto bailout.


I know.
I bought their stock at $2.00 a share.
Sold at $11.00
Dodge & G.M. went Bankrupt !

Bought Caterpillar at $21.00 a share.
Sold at $90.00

A.I.G. was $1.00 went up to$36.00 in 6 months.
They started the housing package insurance fiascle.


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## Syn (Jun 30, 2017)

tohunt4me said:


> And THATS why people buy Japanese.


Ford happens to be the best selling brand in the USA so ...


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Syn said:


> Ford happens to be the best selling brand in the USA so ...


That's very misleading, Ford F series is the meat and potatoes of all sales. Outside of the F series people and business aren't big on the Ford brand. What about all the rest of it's cars,vans, suvs, etc.


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

I do have 1 Ford F 150 pick up😁 It runs smooth and never any issue.


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

Uber's Guber said:


> Just an fyi: Ford did not participate in the auto bailout.


Their Parts and Service dept must have kept them afloat :biggrin:


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

doyousensehumor said:


> Their Parts and Service dept must have kept them afloat :biggrin:


I think them being smaller than GM helped them in that time period.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> You have to break down the engine to get to the water pump &#128551;


Yes I know, that's the problem. And the subject of this thread

Water pumps are not a "forever" part and neither are timing chains/ belts

As I recall replacing a timing chain (or belt) was always recommended at 100000 miles. For some cars it was just good advice. (If the chain was to fail the car just stops) But for other cars it was really importan because when the belt or chain fails the pistons crash into the valves

replacing a timing chain is always a big job and if you intend to keep the car for more than 200000 - 300000 miles as I do it has to be done before it fails In the case of the Explorer when the timing chain is replaced the water pump comes along almost for free

When my Explorer hit 150000 miles I spoke to several mechanics to develop a plan designed to get to 300000 miles. No one brought up the timing chain. I asked about it but the ford guy said it was a lifetime part. I guess like the BMW in a post above, lifetime means something less than 300000 miles

In any case I'm bringing my explorer in tomorrow for a new timing chain and water pump. He gave me a Thanksgiving special $1800. I'm considering it routine maintenance

When I started doing Uber my car was at 70000 niles I planned to do 3 years of Uber at 70000 miles a year which would bring it to 310000 miles and I budgeted $3500 a year (5 cents a mile) for maintenance and repair. This repair will not bust my budget. I'll be right at $7000 for the first 2 years.


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## Syn (Jun 30, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> That's very misleading, Ford F series is the meat and potatoes of all sales. Outside of the F series people and business aren't big on the Ford brand. What about all the rest of it's cars,vans, suvs, etc.


You can use that logic on any car brand. Every one of them has 1-2 strong sellers and then the rest ...


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

oldfart said:


> Yes I know, that's the problem. And the subject of this thread
> 
> Water pumps are not a "forever" part and neither are timing chains/ belts
> 
> ...


 Hey at least you're doing preventive maintenance. Other than this water pump issue, the Ford 3.5 and 3.7 is actually a good motor. It's not a Toyota or Honda, but it's actually a decent motor.

Even with the water pump issue, this is an above-average durability engine, plus it's usually mated to Ford's 6-speed automatic, which is one of the top Transmissions the last few years, as it's not a CVT.

This coming from a Chevy and Toyota guy. I'm biased against Ford too--- that doesn't stop me from seeing that Ford did okay overall on this motor. Plus what would be the more perfect car to drive for Uber than a car you hate? :biggrin: Might as well be a Ford right?

You guys really need to stop taking clickbait news articles as fact. There's more to the story as usual.


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## Steve412 (Oct 14, 2019)

Was going to buy a high mileage Flex but read about this last year. And unfortunately it’s super invasive to change the water pump to the tune of well over $800


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

That's not true at all, take Honda for example. The Civic, Accord, CRV, Pilot, and Odyssey are all top sellers.



oldfart said:


> Yes I know, that's the problem. And the subject of this thread
> 
> Water pumps are not a "forever" part and neither are timing chains/ belts
> 
> ...


Timing chains don't get replace unless there's a problem with your timing chain. Timing belts on the other hand is routine maintenance every 60k-100k miles.

The Explorer is a timing chain opsies: You're about to make an unneeded repair to your vehicle.

BTW I have a 1999 Ford Explorer with over 250k miles.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

losiglow said:


> I wouldn't say all Fords are bad. Like any car, you have to do research on it before you buy. An auto manufacturer may make both good and bad vehicles.
> 
> Toyota had problems with sludge buildup on their early 2000 V6's due to "hot spots" which could then starve the engine of oil. And Honda/Acura had notorious transmission problems from 1998 - 2006 on a bunch of vehicles including the Accord, Odyssey and TL. Yet the majority of Toyota and Honda's other vehicles were great.
> 
> Heck, you can find reliable BMW's and MB's if you do some research. Granted, most of them are older ones - back when there's wasn't all the crazy technology like air suspensions and penny pinching tactics like using plastic water pump impellers, turbo waste-gates and blow-off valves.


 I had one of those Toyota engines that "sludged" up. As I understood the problem; the return oil passages ran almost horizontal so the oil didn't easily drop back to the sump.

I paid a guy to go after the problem with a screwdriver to chip the sludge under the valve covers loose and a shop vac to suck it out. Then he filled the engine with diesel fuel, let it sit and drained it out, several times.

Got another 100000 miles out of that car


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## Syn (Jun 30, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> That's not true at all, take Honda for example. The Civic, Accord, CRV, Pilot, and Odyssey are all top sellers.


Civic was the only top seller in its class. None of other Hondas that you mentioned were top sellers in their classes.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Syn said:


> Civic was the only top seller in its class. None of other Hondas that you mentioned were top sellers in their classes.


Yes Toyota outsells Honda in most segments but all cars on that list are high selling cars.

Actually the CRV outsold the civic but both was outsold by Toyota's RAV4. So the end result would be that the CRV wouldn't be the top of its class but Honda's top seller.

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/top-selling-vehicles-brand-usa-2017-honda/


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## OldBay (Apr 1, 2019)

doyousensehumor said:


> Hey at least you're doing preventive maintenance. Other than this water pump issue, the Ford 3.5 and 3.7 is actually a good motor. It's not a Toyota or Honda, but it's actually a decent motor.
> 
> Even with the water pump issue, this is an above-average durability engine, plus it's usually mated to Ford's 6-speed automatic, which is one of the top Transmissions the last few years, as it's not a CVT.
> 
> ...


In the video I linked, the guy got 150K out of his water pump before having to change it.

Not bad. Not bad at all.

Water pump is an accessory that can fail on any car. Probably the root of the problem is that the motor is a chain drive and the service interval of the chain outlives that of the water pump.

Usually in a belt drive car, you replace both at the same time.

I don't see an issue here. This is "as expected". The TLDR; version of this thread is that the water pump fails before the service interval of the chain, but the water pump does not fail any faster than it would on other brands of cars.

Its like you've never changed a timing belt and water pump.


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## RideshareUSA (Feb 7, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> On lunch break, watching the news and apparently Ford start designing their engines with the water pump on the inside.(Dumb ass Ford)
> 
> Anyway if you replace the water pump before failure a mechanic has to tear down the engine to get to it. If it goes bad in the engine IT KILLS THE ENTIRE ENGINE WTF :i'm mad:
> 
> ...


Yup, had an Escape. Absolute biggest POS vehicle I ever had the displeasure of owning. F U Ford!


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> That's not true at all, take Honda for example. The Civic, Accord, CRV, Pilot, and Odyssey are all top sellers.
> 
> 
> Timing chains don't get replace unless there's a problem with your timing chain. Timing belts on the other hand is routine maintenance every 60k-100k miles.
> ...


You say I'm making an unnecessary "repair"
And you would be correct if I was only concerned about the timing chain

My real concern is with the water pump not the timing chain. And I wouldn't worry about it until something goes wrong.....but... from what I read the first sign that something is wrong is often engine failure

So I don't think I'm going to wait for something to go wrong

if I replace this car, I'll replace it with another ford


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

oldfart said:


> You say I'm making an unnecessary "repair"
> And you would be correct if I was only concerned about the timing chain
> 
> My real concern is with the water pump not the timing chain. And I wouldn't worry about it until something goes wrong.....but... from what I read the first sign that something is wrong is often engine failure
> ...


I see, you're just trying to maximize the value of your purchase/ maintenance repair. Still hate to see you cough up money on this.


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## Syn (Jun 30, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Yes Toyota outsells Honda in most segments but all cars on that list are high selling cars.
> 
> Actually the CRV outsold the civic but both was outsold by Toyota's RAV4. So the end result would be that the CRV wouldn't be the top of its class but Honda's top seller.
> 
> https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/top-selling-vehicles-brand-usa-2017-honda/


Although Honda's cars are pretty good sellers, profit on them is minimal. I read somewhere that profit on a Civic is only few hundred dollars - compared to almost $20,000 profit on each F-Series sold. Ford also has high sellers such as Edge, Explorer and Expedition which are all very profitable.

Same applies to almost every brand. Toyota makes higher profit on 100,000 Tundras than on 500,000+ Corollas and Camrys.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Syn said:


> Although Honda's cars are pretty good sellers, profit on them is minimal. I read somewhere that profit on a Civic is only few hundred dollars - compared to almost $20,000 profit on each F-Series sold. Ford also has high sellers such as Edge, Explorer and Expedition which are all very profitable.
> 
> Same applies to almost every brand. Toyota makes higher profit on 100,000 Tundras than on 500,000+ Corollas and Camrys.


If you believe Ford makes a $20k profit on a $30-$40k truck then I have ocean front property to sell you in Ohio.

As a matter of fact why are you trying to defend Ford on a trend about them costing their customers thousands of dollars through poor design?

And jumping topic to topic to find a silver lining in Fords giant rain cloud.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> That's very misleading, Ford F series is the meat and potatoes of all sales. Outside of the F series people and business aren't big on the Ford brand. What about all the rest of it's cars,vans, suvs, etc.


Transmissions that FAIL
LONG BEFORE THEY SHOULD !


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## Syn (Jun 30, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> If you believe Ford makes a $20k profit on a $30-$40k truck then I have ocean front property to sell you in Ohio.
> 
> As a matter of fact why are you trying to defend Ford on a trend about them costing their customers thousands of dollars through poor design?
> 
> And jumping topic to topic to find a silver lining in Fords giant rain cloud.


I checked - Ford makes $13,000, GM makes $17,000 per truck sold.
https://www.core77.com/posts/82125/...-Market-Competition-Heats-Up-While-Sedans-Die

I drive Toyotas so I have no reason to defend Ford. I was just pointing out to you that sales numbers don't matter - profit does. And F-Series is more profitable than anything that Honda makes. The fact is, Ford makes more money on one F-Series sold that Honda does on 43 Civics ...


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Syn said:


> I checked - Ford makes $13,000, GM makes $17,000 per truck sold.
> https://www.core77.com/posts/82125/...-Market-Competition-Heats-Up-While-Sedans-Die
> 
> I drive Toyotas so I have no reason to defend Ford. I was just pointing out to you that sales numbers don't matter - profit does. And F-Series is more profitable than anything that Honda makes. The fact is, Ford makes more money on one F-Series sold that Honda does on 43 Civic ...


More like $10k, the $17k quoted was for GM btw and it's spread across the entire truck line up with premium truck costing nearly $100k. Ford sales is mostly your standard F150 and it doesn't command the profit margin you posted.








https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxbusiness.com/markets/why-the-ford-f-150-is-a-profit-machine.amp


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## Syn (Jun 30, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> More like $10k, the $17k quoted was for GM btw and it's spread across the entire truck line up with premium truck costing nearly $100k. Ford sales is mostly your standard F150 and it doesn't command the profit margin you posted.
> View attachment 381622
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxbusiness.com/markets/why-the-ford-f-150-is-a-profit-machine.amp


I clearly said F-Series, not F-150.
Ford doesn't separate F-150 from the Super Duty (F-250/F-350/F-450), they're all part of F-Series. Average selling price of F-Series last year was app. $47,000 - more than any other truck on the market. And average profit on F-Series was $13,000. Chevy is also counting entire Silverado lineup (1500, 2500 and 3500) in their sales numbers and profit per vehicle, they don't separate Silverado 1500 from Silverado Heavy Duty (2500/3500).

Even at $10,000, its still much MUCH more than Honda Civic or Accord, that's for sure.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Syn said:


> I clearly said F-Series, not F-150.
> Ford doesn't separate F-150 from the Super Duty (F-250/F-350/F-450), they're all part of F-Series. Average selling price of F-Series last year was app. $47,000 - more than any other truck on the market. And average profit on F-Series was $13,000. Chevy is also counting entire Silverado lineup (1500, 2500 and 3500) in their sales numbers and profit per vehicle, they don't separate Silverado 1500 from Silverado Heavy Duty (2500/3500).
> 
> Even at $10,000, its still much MUCH more than Honda Civic or Accord, that's for sure.


Yes but 90% of sales is the F150


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I see, you're just trying to maximize the value of your purchase/ maintenance repair. Still hate to see you cough up money on this.


Fords decision to design the engine the way they did may have been the wrong thing to do, but that's what they did and I own it. And as oldBay points out in his post, water pumps often need to be replaced at 100000 miles or less, no matter where they are mounted

I hate to spend that money too. But The money is there, set aside for surprises like this


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## Syn (Jun 30, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Yes but 90% of sales is the F150


Sorry, that can't be right. That would mean that less than 90,000 SuperDutys are sold annually.

According to this, Ford sold 42,000 SuperDutys with diesel in Q2 alone. So that's app. 160,000 per year in SuperDuty diesels alone - and Ford still offers two much cheaper petrol alternatives so the overall numbers of SuperDutys is even higher since petrol is a more popular option. I would say that based on that that SuperDuty is probably 35-40% (possibly more) of overall F-Series sales.
https://www.dieselforum.org/vehiclesales/u-s-vehicle-sales-dashboard


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

A LOT of the f series sales is on Chassis for use in commercial vehicles


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

That is a stupid place for a water pump. Impeller seals go sour. It happens. As others have stated, if that happens in an internal water pump, you get coolant mixed with oil. At that point, you would do better to replace the engine. If you are so inclined, you can disassemble the thing, wash off every part, make sure that there is no damage, reassemble, oil and drive it, again. That requires time and skill, though.

The idiot light is a problem. When the idiot light comes on, you are already *in* trouble. At least if you have a gauge, you can see when you are *getting* into trouble and shut down the thing before you are in trouble. Of course, in the case of the internal water pump, once the engine temperature starts to climb, you already have coolant mixed with water so you are already in trouble, anyhow.

I have a 2014 Fusion hybrid that I use for Uber/Lyft and a 2015 that is a cab. As they are hybrids, they have the four cylinder. There is a gauge, but, you must bring up the thing. It does not stay up, though, so you must bring up the thing periodically to check it. I check it frequently in the summer when the air condition is running full time. Once it gets over the halfway mark, it is time to shut down the air condition and head for the shop. That has not h appened, Y-E-T.

Older Chryslers used to have a vent hole in the water pump housing under the impeller shaft. You could see when the impeller seal was going sour, because it used to drip; slowly, at first, then worse. Once you saw it drip, it was time to head for the shop.

Until this disaster, I used to think that the worst water pump arrangement was the old Cadillac 429. I saw more than once case where the bolts used to break when you took them out. You had to have specialised drills to drill out the things and if you damaged the threads, you had to get out a tap and die set.



TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Yea but Ford has a long history of transmission troubles across its entire lineup.


The C-6 was very good. Once they got the bugs out of the FMX, it was pretty good, as well. Sadly, they discontinued it shortly after they had ironed out all of the problems. It is supposed to be a problem across the board in all versions of the Fusion. If you flush and change the fluid, though, that is supposed to diminish the possibilities of problems.



TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> This problem it's many vehicles across the lineup including the Fusion. Really any Ford with the *Duratec V6 engine.*


Fortunately, I have the hybrid, which has the four. I did have two spark plugs go sour in the 2014, though.



oldfart said:


> I paid a guy to go after the problem with a screwdriver to chip the sludge under the valve covers loose and a shop vac to suck it out. Then he filled the engine with diesel fuel, let it sit and drained it out, several times.


I hope that he let it sit until all of the distillate evaporated then you changed the oil at least once a month for the next six months. Distillate will cut up sludge in good time and it evaporates easily, still, you do not want to take too many chances.


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## Buck-a-mile (Nov 2, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> On lunch break, watching the news and apparently Ford start designing their engines with the water pump on the inside.(Dumb ass Ford)
> 
> Anyway if you replace the water pump before failure a mechanic has to tear down the engine to get to it. If it goes bad in the engine IT KILLS THE ENTIRE ENGINE WTF :i'm mad:
> 
> ...


I thought everyone knew there were no good Ford Explorers. None at all, not one


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Syn said:


> Sorry, that can't be right. That would mean that less than 90,000 SuperDutys are sold annually.
> 
> According to this, Ford sold 42,000 SuperDutys with diesel in Q2 alone. So that's app. 160,000 per year in SuperDuty diesels alone - and Ford still offers two much cheaper petrol alternatives so the overall numbers of SuperDutys is even higher since petrol is a more popular option. I would say that based on that that SuperDuty is probably 35-40% (possibly more) of overall F-Series sales.
> https://www.dieselforum.org/vehiclesales/u-s-vehicle-sales-dashboard


Look man you are gonna keep going on and on in a circle with me. Ford isn't making $20k profit per truck, both of our data showed that.

How does any of this relate to Ford putting a water pump inside the engine?

You are trying to find some kind of Ford saving grace in your mind, none of this relates to the trend. Ford could sale a million Super-duties and it wouldn't have any bearing on the bull they just pulled in the duratec v6 engine. Damn man


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Fix Or Repair Daily,
> or it will be
> Found On Road Dead,


Ford Escort GT(gets towed)


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## Diamondraider (Mar 13, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Btw here is the story I seen earlier but there are many more online.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ws...ing-to-unbelievably-costly-repairs/1011083993


While at My dealer for a transmission, I asked if they would pop in a new headlight bulb The rep said "sure, but you know it cost $100 per lamp?" I cancelled my request and was told that was reasonable compared to a new Rogue. Apparently the lifetime bulb does have a shelf life and a Rogue requires the entire housing to be replaced for $1400ea!


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## Syn (Jun 30, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Look man you are gonna keep going on and on in a circle with me. Ford isn't making $20k profit per truck, both of our data showed that.
> 
> How does any of this relate to Ford putting a water pump inside the engine?
> 
> You are trying to find some kind of Ford saving grace in your mind, none of this relates to the trend. Ford could sale a million Super-duties and it wouldn't have any bearing on the bull they just pulled in the duratec v6 engine. Damn man


You're the one who started responding to my comment. And nobody is holding a gun to your head - feel free to walk away if you don't want to talk sales & profits.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Syn said:


> You're the one who started responding to my comment. And nobody is holding a gun to your head - feel free to walk away if you don't want to talk sales & profits.


You keep moving the goal post but ultimately you're right I shouldn't respond to you anymore.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Buck-a-mile said:


> I thought everyone knew there were no good Ford Explorers. None at all, not one


I suppose a lot depends on your definition of good. But if you define a "good" vehicle as one that will take you and your family 250000 trouble free miles (or more) in relative comfort; offer a good sized cargo area and towing capacity And look good doing it....I have one and I had another



















Diamondraider said:


> While at My dealer for a transmission, I asked if they would pop in a new headlight bulb The rep said "sure, but you know it cost $100 per lamp?" I cancelled my request and was told that was reasonable compared to a new Rogue. Apparently the lifetime bulb does have a shelf life and a Rogue requires the entire housing to be replaced for $1400ea!


I was quoted over $1000 for the headlight assembly and bulb for my Explorer plus labor
I fixed it myself with led bulbs for under $100


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## Buck-a-mile (Nov 2, 2019)

I owned an Explorer the year they decided to change the gauge on the wiring to save pennies per vehicle. 

That car caught on fire 3 times before I took it back to the dealer forever. The California lemon law covered me and Ford had to buy the car back and reimburse me completely.
Never bought another Ford product.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

Diamondraider said:


> While at My dealer for a transmission, I asked if they would pop in a new headlight bulb The rep said "sure, but you know it cost $100 per lamp?" I cancelled my request and was told that was reasonable compared to a new Rogue. Apparently the lifetime bulb does have a shelf life and a Rogue requires the entire housing to be replaced for $1400ea!


That's insane.



Dekero said:


> Yeah my BMW says lifetime... Read the small print and they Consider lifetime to be 100k... tricky bastards... Good thing I never have trusted lifetime fluids in anything... That's just absurd... Metal shavings build up overtime... I don't care how it was built... Swap ya damn fluids on the regular.... 50k, or 75k at the outside...


100K = Lifetime!! No way. What were they thinking?


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

Absolutely a waste of money to replace a timing chain that is actually "designed for life." Got some that are not designed for life and needs to be replaced every 60 000 miles. Typically for life made chains last and designed to last 300 000 miles if ur engine lives that long or doesn't throw a rod through the engine block. You have the same chance of the engine failing and dying then the chain going bad. Just as there is a belt tensioner there is a chain tensioner that will always keep the belt or chain from slacking. These are automatic adjusters. Gone are the days where someone manually adjust things.

Some car makers went with synthetic belts because it was cheaper and they can double dip on parts/labors throughout the life of the car as synthetic belts ages and put on miles they degrade and snap or you lose all the teeth/grooves and fails that way too. Ensuring they can charge for major servicing.

The water pump however should be replaced every 100k miles as it a wear and tear part and isn't designed for the life of the car. Pretty much anything labelled sealed for life as in most cars now day it just means until the warranty period is over so they can replace that expensive part for you. With other things it is recommended even in "sealed for life transmission fluids." Gets replace at 100k miles or 150k miles.

Just like engine oil as it heats up and ages, that transmission fluid loses all lubricating properties and heat carrying properties which results in the automatic gearbox destroying itself and making the car maker a lot of $$$. It an automaker designed to fail so they can make profit selling you $$ parts and labor. Pretty much the same with the waterpump thing if it fails and it will fail, takes out the whole engine block. You buy a new car from ford.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Immoralized said:


> Absolutely a waste of money to replace a timing chain that is actually "designed for life." Got some that are not designed for life and needs to be replaced every 60 000 miles. Typically for life made chains last and designed to last 300 000 miles if ur engine lives that long or doesn't throw a rod through the engine block. You have the same chance of the engine failing and dying then the chain going bad. Just as there is a belt tensioner there is a chain tensioner that will always keep the belt or chain from slacking. These are automatic adjusters. Gone are the days where someone manually adjust things.
> 
> Some car makers went with synthetic belts because it was cheaper and they can double dip on parts/labors throughout the life of the car as synthetic belts ages and put on miles they degrade and snap or you lose all the teeth/grooves and fails that way too. Ensuring they can charge for major servicing.
> 
> ...


You are talking about replacing the water pump and replacing the timing chain as if they are two separate projects as I understand the design of these engines, the labor to replace one is no different than the labor to replace both

If I read you right, you say a water pump is good for about 100000 miles. Since mine is at over 200000 miles (plus who knows how many idle hours) I assume you don't think replacing it would be a waste of money

So given that I'm going to replace the water pump, do you still think replacing the timing chain is a waste of money ?

By the way, I'm also having them replace the front crankshaft seal


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

oldfart said:


> You are talking about replacing the water pump and replacing the timing chain as if they are two separate projects as I understand the design of these engines, the labor to replace one is no different than the labor to replace both
> 
> If I read you right, you say a water pump is good for about 100000 miles. Since mine is at over 200000 miles (plus who knows how many idle hours) I assume you don't think replacing it would be a waste of money
> 
> ...


At 200k miles as you stated if you are planning on keeping it forever and running it over 300k then it probably best in ur case to replace both.
Not all engines are designed with an in built water pump that is located in the engine because that makes it a very costly part to service just like replacing the engine chain.

Typically most pumps are designed to pump 50 000 hours or more under controlled conditions. Been on a car or inside of a car is not exactly "controlled conditions." But it all a coin toss when if it will fail or last up to that 50k hours or not. Usually it a very cheap part to replace so is usually done at every 100k miles or even more often because if it fails can cause havoc. On paper that pump should last indefinitely or the life of the vehicle in reality it has a chance of failure before the useful life of said vehicle.

Something so cheap that can take out a car is bad engineering or intentional design to fail. Ford been making vehicles for over a hundred years so I'm going to go with the latter. The chain however good for 300k miles. But with the designed of ur engine with small parts that may or may not fail it worth doing both at the same time or roll the dice and do neither. Up 2 you. The chain will hold up to 300k and more but ur water pump maybe on it last legs or might pull through. That the gamble. It is a very expensive gamble either side of the coin.

Got some ref materials if you want to read on the waterpump. Anyways you rolled the dice on it by going 200k and it "lasted." I've had parts fail 50% of their life when they are rated 150k miles so it about luck sometimes too. I've had lifetime parts fail too but it happens and happens more when the vehicle is been used heavily when it really only designed to be used light duty.

https://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/how-long-should-an-automotive-water-pump-last/


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

I don't know about anyone else... But If I'm tearing into anything to get to a part to fix, I replace any of the "Weak" parts I can afford to at the time of the repair... A good example was I had to tear down.my daughters 2002 BMW 530i to replace the starter which was under the intake and a Bytch to get to... Soo while I had the intake off I replaced almost the entire cooling system hoses that ran under there along with the water pump and all the pcv components... As doing so in the future would require the same tear down. No point in doing the job twice if spending a few hundred bux extra NOW would keep that from happening... She's still driving that car now ....255k miles and going strong...


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

Dekero said:


> I don't know about anyone else... But If I'm tearing into anything to get to a part to fix, I replace any of the "Weak" parts I can afford to at the time of the repair... A good example was I had to tear down.my daughters 2002 BMW 530i to replace the starter which was under the intake and a Bytch to get to... Soo while I had the intake off I replaced almost the entire cooling system hoses that ran under there along with the water pump and all the pcv components... As doing so in the future would require the same tear down. No point in doing the job twice if spending a few hundred bux extra NOW would keep that from happening... She's still driving that car now ....255k miles and going strong...


Depends if it a 4ever car or if you going to get rid off it as soon as it no longer economical to keep or gets too old for rideshare.
All cars run 4ever just depends how much $$$ you want to throw at it.

Always that point where it going to cost you a lot more in parts and labor then it actually worth on paper or is going to make you in the future.
So all that extra work you done on that car would just have been for nothing if it going to be sold the next year for a couple of grand.

Not a lot of people willing to buy a 300k - 500k mile ex rideshare vehicle for top dollar. You simply don't get the $$$ back that you put into it. Usually makes more economical sense to run it into the ground and sell it for scraps as most do. Especially at those miles everything is pretty much past it designed point.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Immoralized said:


> Depends if it a 4ever car or if you going to get rid off it as soon as it no longer economical to keep or gets too old for rideshare.
> All cars run 4ever just depends how much $$$ you want to throw at it.
> 
> Always that point where it going to cost you a lot more in parts and labor then it actually worth on paper or is going to make you in the future.
> ...


As I do most of my own repairs... I'm speaking more from a peace of mind point of view I guess.... I know without a doubt the chances of my daughter having a cooling system fail now is very very low... And it only cost me a couple hundred bux extra while replacing the starter....over having to spend another 1k to have it done at another time....

Just always good idea if your planning on keeping the car to think proactively.... Rather than reactively when it fails...


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

Dekero said:


> As I do most of my own repairs... I'm speaking more from a peace of mind point of view I guess.... I know without a doubt the chances of my daughter having a cooling system fail now is very very low... And it only cost me a couple hundred bux extra while replacing the starter....over having to spend another 1k to have it done at another time....
> 
> Just always good idea if your planning on keeping the car to think proactively.... Rather than reactively when it fails...


I think proactively it my job to do so ✔
It all about risk management and maximizing that almighty dollar. For every dollar I put into the car it another dollar not in my pocket.
A car is a money making asset for me nothing more even though I buy a lot of parts for my cars and try to buy the heavy duty parts when available to do so or top of the line after market parts when OEM parts fail or wear out.

Last week had an AC compressor replaced that had a hole in it. Could of had it rebuilt and save some $$$ but replaced it with a brand new unit because I know it'll last for at least another 6-8 years with a new unit then what it would do with a rebuilt one or 2nd hand. The actual compressor isn't really the most expensive thing it the labor that always the killer.

I plan on keeping that vehicle for another 4 years before it no longer useful for me.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

oldfart said:


> I had one of those Toyota engines that "sludged" up. As I understood the problem; the return oil passages ran almost horizontal so the oil didn't easily drop back to the sump.
> 
> I paid a guy to go after the problem with a screwdriver to chip the sludge under the valve covers loose and a shop vac to suck it out. Then he filled the engine with diesel fuel, let it sit and drained it out, several times.
> 
> Got another 100000 miles out of that car


I had an old S10 with sludgey oil. Took out the old oil put in diesel ran it a few minutes. Drained out diesel then refilled with oil. Engine ran pretty good. Had to junk the truck because the transmission went out... ...

&#129300;

Maybe I shoulda tried the diesel trick with the transmission.



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Ford DOES do somethings right,
> 
> Namely truck Chasis for use in tow trucks, heavy trucks ect.
> 
> ...


I drove a Ford tow truck for a while when I was repoing cars. It sucked. When I had a car on the stinger the front suspension would bounce all over the road. Just driving it empty was pretty annoying.

Yea, it was a Super Duty and it wasn't just me, I heard the same complaints from drivers from other companies.


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## WillC (Feb 13, 2016)

Here is a youtube video of the design flaw, uploaded in Novemble 2018. The engine is also used on Mazda, showing in this video. It is costly.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

WillC said:


> Here is a youtube video of the design flaw, uploaded in Novemble 2018. The engine is also used on Mazda, showing in this video. It is costly.


Thanks for posting this

My 2011 ford explore was manufactured in November 2010 which would make it an "early" 2011 probably with a "single sprocket" water pump

I feel much better about my decision to spend $2000 to replace the water pump, timing chain and etc)

As you say "costly" but costly is a relitive term. Costly compared to what? A new 2020 Explorer is $50000. A 2015 explore with 50900 miles is about $20000. I'm guessing a remanufactured will run over $6000. And if the video is correct and this engine can go 500000 miles except for this design flaw the repair will end up costing less than a half a penny per mile

My car is a business "tool" and I've been putting money aside each month for just this sort of expense. So, basically the job is already paid for

Bottom line is that I'm comfortable with the cost and am confident I can rebuild my savings account within a month or two


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## luckytown (Feb 11, 2016)

Cars are lasting longer and a new car is easily over $25000....all car manufacturers are doing this to keep up thier profit line in the maintence and repair segments...


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

luckytown said:


> Cars are lasting longer and a new car is easily over $25000....all car manufacturers are doing this to keep up thier profit line in the maintence and repair segments...


 Cars are lasting longer and my car is a Florida car... so no rust and no potholes


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

IR12 said:


> News flash!!! American automobiles have been crap for DECADES.
> Using a piece of crap for ridesharing is probably not a good idea.


So true

American quality and reliability is garbage



TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> That's very misleading, Ford F series is the meat and potatoes of all sales. Outside of the F series people and business aren't big on the Ford brand. What about all the rest of it's cars,vans, suvs, etc.


What cars?

The only car they still sell in America is the Mustang.


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## Lightning1181 (Nov 15, 2015)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> On lunch break, watching the news and apparently Ford start designing their engines with the water pump on the inside.(Dumb ass Ford)
> 
> Anyway if you replace the water pump before failure a mechanic has to tear down the engine to get to it. If it goes bad in the engine IT KILLS THE ENTIRE ENGINE WTF :i'm mad:
> 
> ...


My Lincoln MKT had a water pump failure, brought it in time to my local Ford dealer, to discover that the r&r only cost me $3300. I have been told that Cadillac has an internal starter in some of their motors, that has to be a big $$ item as well.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Lightning1181 said:


> My Lincoln MKT had a water pump failure, brought it in time to my local Ford dealer, to discover that the r&r only cost me $3300. I have been told that Cadillac has an internal starter in some of their motors, that has to be a big $$ item as well.


Man $3300 I'd shove that car up they ass... That's some.serious bs... Put the damn thing outside and it's a $100 repair... Ridiculous...


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## Lightning1181 (Nov 15, 2015)

Dekero said:


> Man $3300 I'd shove that car up they ass... That's some.serious bs... Put the damn thing outside and it's a $100 repair... Ridiculous...


Pretty much. The old days of doing a water pump it was easy. My mechanic is a master mech, and he wouldn't touch this job. The tools necessary are special for this, plus the time to get the 2 timing chains synced up. It took the dealership a week to do this job because only an A mechanic is certified to do it. What a crock of shyt. But this car makes me $$ every day of the week.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Dekero said:


> Man $3300 I'd shove that car up they ass... That's some.serious bs... Put the damn thing outside and it's a $100 repair... Ridiculous...


I'm halfway thinking of taking some auto repair class at a community college.


Lightning1181 said:


> Pretty much. The old days of doing a water pump it was easy. My mechanic is a master mech, and he wouldn't touch this job. The tools necessary are special for this, plus the time to get the 2 timing chains synced up. It took the dealership a week to do this job because only an A mechanic is certified to do it. What a crock of shyt. But this car makes me $$ every day of the week.


Brother sounds like this car is just costing you money.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I'm halfway thinking of taking some auto repair class at a community college.
> 
> Brother sounds like this car is just costing you money.


You should I just did all my brakes on My BMW, THE DEALER QUOTED ME $1800, It took me 4 hours for them all.and the kit cost me $380, I had to buy 2 specialty tools that cost me $25... Plus my time.... Here's a pic... They look so damn good... If you can watch a YouTube video you can do it... Next time PM me I'll even help you research doing it yourself!!! Not the timing chain and pump....thats deep motor stuff... But maintenance.. all day long!!


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Dekero said:


> You should I just did all my brakes on My BMW, THE DEALER QUOTED ME $1800, It took me 4 hours for them all.and the kit cost me $380, I had to buy 2 specialty tools that cost me $25... Plus my time.... Here's a pic... They look so damn good... If you can watch a YouTube video you can do it... Next time PM me I'll even help you research doing it yourself!!! Not the timing chain and pump....thats deep motor stuff... But maintenance.. all day long!!
> View attachment 382219
> View attachment 382220
> View attachment 382221


Actually you hit the nail right on the head. I'm just tried of not knowing the basics. I don't even know how to change oil &#128517; so I'm really starting from scratch.


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

Dekero said:


> You should I just did all my brakes on My BMW, THE DEALER QUOTED ME $1800, It took me 4 hours for them all.and the kit cost me $380, I had to buy 2 specialty tools that cost me $25... Plus my time.... Here's a pic... They look so damn good... If you can watch a YouTube video you can do it... Next time PM me I'll even help you research doing it yourself!!! Not the timing chain and pump....thats deep motor stuff... But maintenance.. all day long!!
> View attachment 382219
> View attachment 382220
> View attachment 382221


Ur dealer was trying to bend you over the work bench with no lube. I'm thinking his quoted you the price because his a dumb $h!t that you wanted them to supply the rotors & pads because that the only way it'll be $1800. It only a 2 hour job unless the dealership is now charging $900 per hour there for labor :eeking: So I'm thinking the numb nuts was trying to charge you for parts & labor even though you were supplying the parts. Perhaps something was lost in communication?

You can get the rotors front/back & pads front/back installed for under <$200 maybe $250 max at most brake & suspension shops that will run rings around any dealers in term of what they specialize in. That or any independent mechanic. They smash it out in 2 hours since it just all labor when you supply the parts.

Recently got my front rotors resurfaced since they are blanks not slotted/drilled like yours and you can't resurface urs  That was $70 and $120 dollars for the brake pads front/back heavy duty pads should last 50k-70k miles. Depending how hard I brake. That was at a tyre & brake shop. Supplied my own pads. I'm willing to drop $200 for someone else to take care of the problem especially in an SUV when they got the power tools and air tools on hand to remove any parts that might be stuck quickly.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Immoralized said:


> Ur dealer was trying to bend you over the work bench with no lube. I'm thinking his quoted you the price because his a dumb $h!t that you wanted them to supply the rotors & pads because that the only way it'll be $1800. It only a 2 hour job unless the dealership is now charging $900 per hour there for labor :eeking: So I'm thinking the numb nuts was trying to charge you for parts & labor even though you were supplying the parts. Perhaps something was lost in communication?
> 
> You can get the rotors front/back & pads front/back installed for under <$200 maybe $250 max at most brake & suspension shops that will run rings around any dealers in term of what they specialize in. That or any independent mechanic. They smash it out in 2 hours since it just all labor when you supply the parts.
> 
> Recently got my front rotors resurfaced since they are blanks not slotted/drilled like yours and you can't resurface urs  That was $70 and $120 dollars for the brake pads front/back heavy duty pads should last 50k-70k miles. Depending how hard I brake. That was at a tyre & brake shop. Supplied my own pads.


The letters BMW, and numbers... 750i, may have been missed when I posted earlier.... Dealer loves their labor rates.. and yes that price included their parts. Which is why I opted to go with Powerstop... These rotors and ceramic pads.... will last for as long as I intend to keep the car.... Past that.. it's the new owners issue wether to buy blanks or replace these.... They definitely outperform the factory blanks though...


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

Dekero said:


> The letters BMW, and numbers... 750i, may have been missed when I posted earlier.... Dealer loves their labor rates.. and yes that price included their parts. Which is why I opted to go with Powerstop... These rotors and ceramic pads.... will last for as long as I intend to keep the car.... Past that.. it's the new owners issue wether to buy blanks or replace these.... They definitely outperform the factory blanks though...


You saying ur dealership labor rates are $900 per hour?
OEM blanks are cheap and soft metal rated for light duty. They perform and last as expected.
You can't really even resurface OEM blanks because of the fact they are soft and cheap metal and may warp if attempted.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Immoralized said:


> You saying ur dealership labor rates are $900 per hour?


I'm going to allow you a little time to slow down and re read .. to answer this....


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

Dekero said:


> I'm going to allow you a little time to slow down and re read .. to answer this....


That what i said parts you were making out it was just labor rates. ✔ Or seemed like it.
A bit confusing because $1800 would be a normal price for OEM rotors & pads on top of labor with dealer surcharge.
All the parts are marked up 600% when they hit the dealers.

You can pretty much buy the same OEM parts online and order it direct from a 3rd party for pennies on the dollar. But as you know already OEM brakes are nothing fancy.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Immoralized said:


> That what i said parts you were making out it was just labor rates. ✔


Nope never said that LOL you read into it that way.... I said I got a quote at the dealer to do the brakes, and after being told $1800, I chose to go with Powerstop which I found a kit on sale for $382, and do the labor myself. Your right I could have found a local shop that would have installed them for 2-300$, but the 2 I asked said I'd have no warranty due to the parts being mine. So I opted to go DIY PROJECT...LOL


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

Dekero said:


> Nope never said that LOL you read into it that way.... I said I got a quote at the dealer to do the brakes, and after being told $1800, I chose to go with Powerstop which I found a kit on sale for $382, and do the labor myself. Your right I could have found a local shop that would have installed them for 2-300$, but the 2 I asked said I'd have no warranty due to the parts being mine. So I opted to go DIY PROJECT...LOL


I would of told that guy to shove it up his a$$ if he said $300. :roflmao: He can get $150 per hour labor doing a routine service item. GTFO.
You don't get warranty on brakes and rotors anyways unless it from the company that makes them.
Too many people abuse and race on them and you can easily kill rotors and pads in a day under heavy abuse.

If I did it myself which would most likely be by hand and I could get stuck and spend all day trying to undo the screws & nuts that was put on by workshop power/air tools and quite possibly the job would never be completed. So I let the pros handle it as all they got to do is shove it up on the hoist and have the wheels off in a minute then get to work.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Immoralized said:


> I would of told that guy to shove it up his a$$ if he said $300. :roflmao: He can get $150 per hour labor doing a routine service item. GTFO.
> You don't get warranty on brakes and rotors anyways unless it from the company that makes them.
> Too many people abuse and race on them and you can easily kill rotors and pads in a day under heavy abuse.


Sadly ... They see BMW 750 and assume I'm rich.... Umm nope paid 11k for it bahahahaa


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

Dekero said:


> Sadly ... They see BMW 750 and assume I'm rich.... Umm nope paid 11k for it bahahahaa


Got that car in the workshop right now doing a transmission service on a sealed for life. It a pain in the a$$ job that should only be attempted by skilled mechanics. You basically have to order in the service kit for the transmission like the rings, pan & filters from the car maker and then replace the old transmission fluid so basically takes half a day.

Going to cost me at least $400 all up but provided my own full transmission fluid. I'm just happy it doesn't need the expensive marked up european spec transmission fluid that Merc/Audi/BMW use because that would be half a grand just for the fluid and you can't really put anything else in it because it'll destroy the transmission. Car makers with these hard to work on sealed for life kits and the labor intensiveness of it is hard to get essential servicing required to keep the car running.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

oldfart said:


> Cars are lasting longer and my car is a Florida car... so no rust and no potholes


Yeah but you guys have sinkholes!!


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

So I decided to go ahead with the preemptive replacement of the water pump in my Ford Explorer. And as long as we are in there I'm also replacing the oil pump, timing chain and guides, as well as the front seal.

I've inspected the old water pump and the impeller does not turn freely indicating worn bearings and the seals are hard as rocks. There is some signs of coolant on the outside of the pump. So there is no doubt in my mind that I'm doing the right thing








.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

oldfart said:


> So I decided to go ahead with the preemptive replacement of the water pump in my Ford Explorer. And as long as we are in there I'm also replacing the oil pump, timing chain and guides, as well as the front seal.
> 
> I've inspected the old water pump and the impeller does not turn freely indicating worn bearings and the seals are hard as rocks. There is some signs of coolant on the outside of the pump. So there is no doubt in my mind that I'm doing the right thing
> 
> ...


$1800 for another 100k is money made. I'm glad you caught this in time. We all need to stick together and speak up when we see these issues arise.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Good luck on a job well done!! Im sure it will pay you back in another 10+ years of good usage!


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> $1800 for another 100k is money made. I'm glad you caught this in time. We all need to stick together and speak up when we see these issues arise.


 It may turn out to be just over $2000.
Since I got the the $1800 estimate I learned that the oil pump is "right there" once everything else is removed, so for the cost of parts I'm going to replace it too

It's also taking me out of business for 5 days. So that's another $750 I'll never see

There is no doubt that doing this job won't increase the value of the car in fact it's probably true that I'm putting more into this car than the car is worth.

However compared to the price of a low milage used car, or even a high milage used car, $2000 is cheap. I mean what better could I spend my $2000 on?

It's our season here and I think I can get this job paid for by spring



TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> $1800 for another 100k is money made. I'm glad you caught this in time. We all need to stick together and speak up when we see these issues arise.


Yes indeed

And a belated thank you to you for bringing this to my attention


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

oldfart said:


> It may turn out to be just over $2000.
> Since I got the the $1800 estimate I learned that the oil pump is "right there" once everything else is removed, so for the cost of parts I'm going to replace it too
> 
> It's also taking me out of business for 5 days. So that's another $750 I'll never see
> ...


As long as the interior is still in great shape I'D say its money well spent....


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

There it is, the infamous ford water pump

I spent $2260 for the job. I could have saved $600 or more by not replacing the timing chain
and oil pump front crank and cam seals

I'll revisit this stuff after another 100000 miles or so


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## lyft_rat (Jul 1, 2019)

oldfart said:


> As you say "costly" but costly is a relitive term. Costly compared to what? A new 2020 Explorer is $50000. A 2015 explore with 50900 miles is about $20000. I'm guessing a remanufactured will run over $6000. And if the video is correct and this engine can go 500000 miles except for this design flaw the repair will end up costing less than a half a penny per mile


There is no possible justification that says it is not expensive. It can and will happen again. This is a lot of money to keep a high-mileage used car running and appears to be one of the worst choices for RS.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

lyft_rat said:


> There is no possible justification that says it is not expensive. It can and will happen again. This is a lot of money to keep a high-mileage used car running and appears to be one of the worst choices for RS.


 Thank you for your advice. 
The justification will come in a year; or not. If I go another 100000
No doubt it's expensive but to put it in perspective; if it goes another 88000 miles that repair will have cost me less than a penny a mile. And the question I ask myself is what better could I have done with $2000. To me it was a no brainer to do this

Now if the car craps out before another 100000 miles I'll be happy to let you tell me "I told you so" but when I'm driving through 400000 miles I'll be posting my "I told you so"

Another way to look at is that I have made $70000 (net) in the last two years with this vehicle and before that it worked well for my wife and me and the two dogs. That car doesn't owe me a thing. And I expect to make another $70000 with It in the next two years and I still use it for those trips to Home Depot

My budget for repairs and maintenance has been 5 cents a mile or $3500 per year and over the last two years I've spent exactly that

This car has done exactly what I wanted it to do, which in my mind makes it the perfect rideshare vehicle


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

oldfart said:


> Thank you for your advice.
> 
> No doubt it's expensive but to put it in perspective; if it goes another 88000 miles that repair will have cost me less than a penny a mile. And the question I ask myself is what better could I have done with $2000. To me it was a no brained to do this
> 
> ...


I think it's less about the vehicle vs you have a solid plan and putting thought to action.


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

oldfart said:


> Thank you for your advice.
> The justification will come in a year; or not. If I go another 100000
> No doubt it's expensive but to put it in perspective; if it goes another 88000 miles that repair will have cost me less than a penny a mile. And the question I ask myself is what better could I have done with $2000. To me it was a no brainer to do this
> 
> ...


5 cent a mile is pretty high running cost for a rideshare vehicle. It really needs to be about 3 cent per mile. That would be the case too if the water pump be more easily accessible without stripping down the engine and having done major service like you did at 300 000 miles.
Then again it not the worst car that you could be driving as some european vehicles would be over 5 cents per mile. That water pump been the weakest link and costing you an absolute bomb to service it.

400 000 miles you probably going to need new suspension brushes and mounts. Whole suspension rebuild to look forward to within the next hundred thousand miles or so. Probably looking at another $2000-$3000 depending what parts you get and how much labor cost going to be. If ur transmission last another hundred or two hundred thousand miles that is. It may need a rebuild before then as well.

Another $2000-$2500? Anyways it all in the future. At some point you got to tear down that automatic gear unit and do more than a flush/swap of transmission fluid out of the sealed for life kit which is costly in itself. However the seals/oil rings and clutch have to be replaced on it at some point which is virtually a full rebuild. 3/4 of that is labor cost.

It true that keeping it will be cheaper then buying a new vehicle but at some point you got to get rid of it. It a very expensive rideshare vehicle nonetheless to keep on the road. Thanks to ford.


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## lyft_rat (Jul 1, 2019)

oldfart said:


> Now if the car craps out before another 100000 miles I'll be happy to let you tell me "I told you so" but when I'm driving through 400000 miles I'll be posting my "I told you so"


I genuinely hope you get the next 100k out of it. I try to make stuff last myself. Lots of cars get death punches at around 200k. You made 300k so you got a "runner". But going 300 to 400k will be exponentially harder. I would like to place a bet against you making that while still pulling for you to make it.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

lyft_rat said:


> I genuinely hope you get the next 100k out of it. I try to make stuff last myself. Lots of cars get death punches at around 200k. You made 300k so you got a "runner". But going 300 to 400k will be exponentially harder. I would like to place a bet against you making that while still pulling for you to make it.


No I'm only at 212000 I'm looking at 300000 by the end of next year


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## lyft_rat (Jul 1, 2019)

oldfart said:


> No I'm only at 212000 I'm looking at 300000 by the end of next year


Ok, I understand better, this makes your odds a lot higher than I thought.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Immoralized said:


> 5 cent a mile is pretty high running cost for a rideshare vehicle. It really needs to be about 3 cent per mile. That would be the case too if the water pump be more easily accessible without stripping down the engine and having done major service like you did at 300 000 miles.
> Then again it not the worst car that you could be driving as some european vehicles would be over 5 cents per mile. That water pump been the weakest link and costing you an absolute bomb to service it.
> 
> 400 000 miles you probably going to need new suspension brushes and mounts. Whole suspension rebuild to look forward to within the next hundred thousand miles or so. Probably looking at another $2000-$3000 depending what parts you get and how much labor cost going to be. If ur transmission last another hundred or two hundred thousand miles that is. It may need a rebuild before then as well.
> ...


As near as I can tell this water pump issue is the one fatal flaw e with this engine. Rings valves bearings too. When they go it will be time for something else but I b er t the interior and suspension and steering will go before the engine.

This car is a tool for me, as long as it makes me Enough money To pay for itself and my bills I'll continue to maintain and repair it

I'm more concerned about insurance. My policy was already expensive and it's going up 20% next year


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

oldfart said:


> As near as I can tell this water pump issue is the one fatal flaw e with this engine. Rings valves bearings too. When they go it will be time for something else but I b er t the interior and suspension and steering will go before the engine.
> 
> This car is a tool for me, as long as it makes me Enough money To pay for itself and my bills I'll continue to maintain and repair it
> 
> I'm more concerned about insurance. My policy was already expensive and it's going up 20% next year


Why the spike in policy?


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

oldfart said:


> As near as I can tell this water pump issue is the one fatal flaw e with this engine. Rings valves bearings too. When they go it will be time for something else but I b er t the interior and suspension and steering will go before the engine.
> 
> This car is a tool for me, as long as it makes me Enough money To pay for itself and my bills I'll continue to maintain and repair it
> 
> I'm more concerned about insurance. My policy was already expensive and it's going up 20% next year


A 20% bump is excessive!! Is that just a weird Florida thing? Do you have other options to switch companies?


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Immoralized said:


> Absolutely a waste of money to replace a timing chain that is actually "designed for life." Got some that are not designed for life and needs to be replaced every 60 000 miles. Typically for life made chains last and designed to last 300 000 miles if ur engine lives that long or doesn't throw a rod through the engine block. You have the same chance of the engine failing and dying then the chain going bad. Just as there is a belt tensioner there is a chain tensioner that will always keep the belt or chain from slacking. These are automatic adjusters. Gone are the days where someone manually adjust things.
> 
> Some car makers went with synthetic belts because it was cheaper and they can double dip on parts/labors throughout the life of the car as synthetic belts ages and put on miles they degrade and snap or you lose all the teeth/grooves and fails that way too. Ensuring they can charge for major servicing.
> 
> ...


Or buy an import NOT DESIGNED TO FAIL !



TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Yea but Ford has a long history of transmission troubles across its entire lineup. It really didn't need to add engine problems to that.
> 
> This problem is in more than Explorers it's many vehicles across the lineup including the Taurus, F150, and Fusion. Really any Ford with the *Duratec V6 engine.*


Explorers had the transmissions that FAIL at 60,000 miles !

The 5 R55 is notorious !

Known defect.

A Servo Bore Repair will get it to go another 60,000 miles if you catch it slipping in time. !

The kit is about $100.00
But you must drop the transmission and drill out servo bore then hammer in sleves !



oldfart said:


> There it is, the infamous ford water pump
> 
> I spent $2260 for the job. I could have saved $600 or more by not replacing the timing chain
> and oil pump front crank and cam seals
> ...


$2,260.00
I would buy a BETTER MOTOR & INSTALL IT.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

tohunt4me said:


> Or buy an import NOT DESIGNED TO FAIL !
> 
> 
> Explorers had the transmissions that FAIL at 60,000 miles !
> ...


I wouldnt normally jump.in... but an IMPORT DESIGNED NOT TO FAIL...
hahah

And his explorer? Built by Mazda in Mexico... Sooo

HONDA USES a timing belt that requires teardown every 60k or so to replace to the tune of $1200+, and if it should fail before you actually replace it it's a zero tolerance motor and you just destroyed the entire engineand. They recommend you replace the water pump while you're there since it has to come out to replace the belt... And most import cars use a timing belt instead of chain so they all have this issue in one form or another so your imports are no more bulletproof than anything else... now that's not to say people don't try to drive them for a hundred and fifty plus thousand miles without changing the belt which is ignorant but people do...

Sadly all cars have an issue of some sort... And all manufacturers put in some. Type of repair or service needs to make extra money....


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## Immoralized (Nov 7, 2017)

Dekero said:


> I wouldnt normally jump.in... but an IMPORT DESIGNED NOT TO FAIL...
> hahah
> 
> And his explorer? Built by Mazda in Mexico... Sooo
> ...


Honda premium parts & cars. I got a honda brush cutter and that worth $350 and all it does is cut grass. The thing will go for the next two decades or forever though :biggrin:.

Not all Asian import vehicles are hard to do major service it just depends on the make and model. I've had done a timing belt on an Old SAAB European and just the timing belt the labour and parts cost <$150 total. That car had a weakness with the ignition Key barrel where it will only last hundred thousand miles before needing replacement. Real Pain.

Most major service on most vehicles including parts would be under <$800 but car makers do the risk assessment on when it should be done leaning towards the ultra conservative of less then 0.1% failure rate. Some people do 200 000 miles without changing the belt over 15 years and never have one major service and the belt snaps. They went over 100 000 miles and 8 years over when they should replace it but gets mad at the car maker because the engine now destroyed.

Some people think the vehicle is just going to run 4ever and a day if they just change the engine oil and nothing else. When reality smacks them in the face and out of pocket thousands of dollars then they realize oh crap I should of probably have the car actually serviced! The car makers are ultra conservative in servicing even though most serviceable parts will go the distance easily 2x.

Because they built in tolerances and over engineered it a bit. However within warranty period they want you to stick to what on the paper for servicing because they don't want to be replacing any non serviceable parts if in a rare event something fails within the warranty period they will be held liable. Definitely wouldn't recommend anyone trying to go 150 000 miles or whatever on a belt that only designed for 60 000 miles because that'll end in tears. If it designed for 100k miles then you could get away with it but not a 60k mile belt. It'll most likely go and kill the engine.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Dekero said:


> I wouldnt normally jump.in... but an IMPORT DESIGNED NOT TO FAIL...
> hahah
> 
> And his explorer? Built by Mazda in Mexico... Sooo
> ...


De that's a gross overstatement, most Honda's and I believe all Toyota's now uses a timing chain. Also the belts come out every 60-120k miles. That's a huge price difference in maintenance schedule.

Even my little Honda Fit had a chain :rollseyes:


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> De that's a gross overstatement, most Honda's and I believe all Toyota's now uses a timing chain. Also the belts come out every 60-120k miles. That's a huge price difference in maintenance schedule.
> 
> Even my little Honda Fit had a chain :rollseyes:


Ok.. sold Honda's for 3 years... The popular 4 cylinder in the accord was the biggest culprit... Your right some have chains... But not most.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Why the spike in policy?


Mine is a commercial liability policy. I coming to the end of my first year with it. Last year I was quoted $4400 but because of a $600 claim 2 years before I had to pay $5400. As I understand it most companies that write these commercial policies do not allow Uber and lyft. Progressive does, and that's who I went with

Flash forward to today and my renewal is $6400. I don't know why it went up. My agent is trying to get an answer but I don't think it will make a difference. I gotta pay to play


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

This thread has really gone off the rails

It started with a post telling us of a flaw (some might say a fatal flaw) in the design of the Ford 3.5l V6 engine. 

I own one of these engines so the post was of interest to me. My post was simply to confirm what the op said and to report what I was thinking and ultimately what I did

I’m not defending Ford, neither am I defending my decisions. Hopefully the information will be of help to another owner of this engine


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

oldfart said:


> Mine is a commercial liability policy. I coming to the end of my first year with it. Last year I was quoted $4400 but because of a $600 claim 2 years before I had to pay $5400. As I understand it most companies that write these commercial policies do not allow Uber and lyft. Progressive does, and that's who I went with
> 
> Flash forward to today and my renewal is $6400. I don't know why it went up. My agent is trying to get an answer but I don't think it will make a difference. I gotta pay to play


I had Geico commercial for awhile and they went up on mine after the first year so I dropped it. I have a feeling the first year is like an intro rate.

It might be worth alternating companies year to year with commercial insurance.I will be shopping around soon probably in February


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