# Uber driver shoots, kills man who was threatening him in Polk County, officials say



## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/ube...ng-him-in-polk-county-officials-say/822975102








Authorities said the man was following and threatening him on Dundee Road near Carl Floyd and County Road 550 in unincorporated Polk County, deputies said.

The incident began at Grove Lounge on Highway 27 in Dundee where a bar patron and a bar tender called an Uber for a heavily-intoxicated woman, deputies said.

A woman helped the drunken woman into the car, investigators said.

Shortly afterward, the good Samaritan's on-again, off-again boyfriend, Jason Boek, 34, called her and thought she was riding in the Uber, according to Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd.

Boek said, "I'm gonna (expletive) up the Uber driver," according to Judd.

The Sheriff's Office said that Boek sent threatening messages to his ex-girlfriend, who was still at the lounge.

Deputies said Boek then drove his Ford F250 pickup truck, shined the lights and pulled up behind the Uber that was carrying the drunken woman.

Boek then drives beside the Uber, passes it and then forces the Uber to stop, Judd said.

According to the Sheriff's Office, Uber driver, Robert Westlake, did not kjnow who Boek was. Deputies said Boek jumped out of his truck and said to Westlake, "You know I got a pistol. You want me to shoot you?"

Boek pulls out a black cellphone from his waist, prompting Westlake to shoot, hitting Boek in the chest, the Sheriff's Office said.

Westlake has a license to carry a concealed weapon and he finished the police academy, Judd said.

Westlake called 911 and tried to "contain the bleeding and give him CPR," Judd said in a news conference.

"The message is clear. Don't message with an Uber driver. Leave the Uber driver alone, because he just may be a certified police officer in waiting," Judd said. "This is a justifiable homicide all day long. You have the right to protect yourself. This is a classic, 'stand your ground case.'"

Boek's criminal history includes previous arrests for aggravated battery, battery, burglary, marijuana possession, forgery, larceny, resisting arrest, and VOP. He was on felony probation for battery, which began in June 2016 and was scheduled to end in June 2021. His driver's license was suspended in May 2018, and the truck he was driving was borrowed from a friend, a news release said.

Deputies said they obtained a search warrant for the truck Boek was driving and found a marijuana cigarette and a glass pipe containing meth residue.


----------



## mrpjfresh (Aug 16, 2016)

Definitely a poorly written and confusing article. Had to read it twice to understand what was going on. I still am not even sure how Boek found the Uber driver unless his on-again/off-again go shared her location with this psycho methhead (allegedly...). Yet another example of why I reject these good Samaritan rides as soon as I see what is happening. Glad the officer in waiting is okay and hope the situation with this maniac doesn't derail his career or affect him too badly. Totally justified though, in my opinion, at least given the shoddy details in the article.



BurgerTiime said:


> Boek's criminal history includes previous arrests for aggravated battery, battery, burglary, marijuana possession, forgery, larceny, resisting arrest, and VOP. He was on felony probation for battery, which began in June 2016 and was scheduled to end in June 2021. His driver's license was suspended in May 2018, and the truck he was driving was borrowed from a friend, a news release said.


Is that all? That's not so bad... I mean, the guy was only given 10 chances to turn his life around. I'm surprised he didn't sign up to be a driver.


----------



## jlong105 (Sep 15, 2017)

And now Uber will deactivate the driver for carrying a weapon...


----------



## Lee239 (Mar 24, 2017)

The story doesn't make sense how is she still in the bar and in the Uber and not in the Uber and then in the uber.
and is the guy with the beard the dead guy or the Uber driver?


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

This is what I don't like about Florida's "stand your ground" law. This is a classic case of *traditional* self-defense. "Stand your ground" has nothing to do with this case and will only muddy the waters.

The bad guy overtook the Uber and forced the driver to stop. Then the asshole -- unknown person to the driver -- threatens to shoot the driver. Then he makes a sudden move to his waist and draws a black object -- at night, on a rural (almost certainly unlit) roadway. The driver was hopefully paying attention in the police academy during the classes on use of deadly force and knew enough to say he was in fear for his life...and then shut up.

Moral of the story: Do NOT bring a cellphone to a gunfight.

And yes, the driver is done with Uber.

He's probably also done as a potential police officer, even though he did nothing wrong. Most departments are very risk-averse these days.



Lee239 said:


> The story doesn't make sense how is she still in the bar and in the Uber and not in the Uber and then in the uber.
> and is the guy with the beard the dead guy or the Uber driver?


The story IS pretty poorly written, but watch the video and you'll understand what happened. The bearded guy is the dear-departed wannabe bad-ass, Jason. Oh well, at least he's off probation now!

Sheriff Grady Judd is a hoot! Listen to his remarks toward the end of the video, and also watch the Uber dashcam which starts with about 3 minutes left in the video.


----------



## Mrtgman (Apr 13, 2017)

https://cbs12.com/news/local/uber-driver-shoots-kills-threatening-driver


----------



## Pulledclear (Oct 31, 2017)

Can you say trigger happy.


----------



## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

The Uber driver did society a favor


----------



## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


----------



## pghuberaudi (Jan 4, 2018)

He'll probably get away with it. Florida has "Stand your ground." It was dumb on both of their parts. Dude should have never gotten out of his car, let alone threaten the other guy. Should have called the police. And unless the driver who approached the driver behind him pulled a weapon (which it doesn't sound like he did) then the driver in the back should have thrown it in reverse and backed away. 

I've spent a little time in the Lakeland area which is near this place. It's a bunch of trailer park ******** and this is typical behavior.


----------



## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

JimKE said:


> This is what I don't like about Florida's "stand your ground" law. This is a classic case of *traditional* self-defense. "Stand your ground" has nothing to do with this case and will only muddy the waters.
> 
> The bad guy overtook the Uber and forced the driver to stop. Then the asshole -- unknown person to the driver -- threatens to shoot the driver. Then he makes a sudden move to his waist and draws a black object -- at night, on a rural (almost certainly unlit) roadway. The driver was hopefully paying attention in the police academy during the classes on use of deadly force and knew enough to say he was in fear for his life...and then shut up.
> 
> ...


Watch the video in the link


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

It will be an interesting case but looks like the cops are backing the driver who is police trained. The victim had a cellphone in his hand. 

I wonder if a case can be made in another area with same situation as the police training may work against him.


----------



## pghuberaudi (Jan 4, 2018)

Kodyhead said:


> It will be an interesting case but looks like the cops are backing the driver who is police trained. The victim had a cellphone in his hand.
> 
> I wonder if a case can be made in another area with same situation as the police training may work against him.


I missed the part that said "Police Training."  That explains a lot. Escalating a situation, then when the person responds with a harsh response, escalate by shooting the guy. I've seen a lot of police with great de-escalating skills... unfortunately many go the other way and escalate to the point where they can justify using deadly force or using someone as a punching bag.


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

mrpjfresh said:


> Definitely a poorly written and confusing article. Had to read it twice to understand what was going on. I still am not even sure how Boek found the Uber driver unless his on-again/off-again go shared her location with this psycho methhead (allegedly...). Yet another example of why I reject these good Samaritan rides as soon as I see what is happening. Glad the officer in waiting is okay and hope the situation with this maniac doesn't derail his career or affect him too badly. Totally justified though, in my opinion, at least given the shoddy details in the article.
> 
> Is that all? That's not so bad... I mean, the guy was only given 10 chances to turn his life around. I'm surprised he didn't sign up to be a driver.


Looks like a pretty rural area "unincorporated" it could of been the only road to get to an area.

Also looks like the cops are backing the driver. Some may argue that the police training may hurt the driver but most likely a justified killing as the cellphone the driver was holding could be mistaken for a weapon

Some want stand your ground amended but it's not like elections are coming up or anything


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

BurgerTiime said:


> Watch the video in the link


Yes, that's what I suggested in the post you quoted.


----------



## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Pulledclear said:


> Can you say trigger happy.


Trigger happy? If someone cuts me off at 2am and as he exits the vehicle, doesnt hesitate to get into my face while uttering the words "i have a pistol and i will shoot you" I take that as him wanting to play the room temperature challenge.

Boek won!

If he had a gun and intent to use it, you dont have much time to react. The fact that Boek closed the gap so quickly means the Uber driver didnt have much time to think, only act. Pulling into reverse, if Boek had a gun and deadly intent as he claims, would have made the driver into swiss cheese with ease.

100% justified for the Uber driver


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

pghuberaudi said:


> I missed the part that said "Police Training." That explains a lot. Escalating a situation, then when the person responds with a harsh response, escalate by shooting the guy. I've seen a lot of police with great de-escalating skills... unfortunately many go the other way and escalate to the point where they can justify using deadly force or using someone as a punching bag.


In one of the articles he alledgedly finished the police academy

Its Florida if you get a prescription for anxiety you can get a gun at walgreens with a free refill lol


----------



## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Uber's Guber said:


> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


QFT

Unfortunately the Uber driver is out of a gig but id rather be out of work than out of life.


----------



## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

Lee239 said:


> The story doesn't make sense how is she still in the bar and in the Uber and not in the Uber and then in the uber.
> and is the guy with the beard the dead guy or the Uber driver?


-----

If you look at the video in the news link ( top of photo) things are a little clearer. It states that the bearded man is the deceased.
The deceased was sitting in the parking lot of the bar, texting the girlfriend who was inside the bar and claiming that he could see what she was doing.
The dead man's girlfriend HELPED a drunk woman into the Uber car and then went back into the bar.
The deceased thought that his girlfriend was in the Uber car because he did not see her go back into the bar.
The one thing that is not mentioned - the bar is on a busy multi-lane hwy. The truck stopped the Uber car on a two lane road, meaning that the deceased had been following them for some time. 
Example of what happens when -- alcohol is mixed with guns and stupidity.


----------



## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

Know this, the mounted dash cam left no doubt that the aggressor was road raging and threatening to kill the Uber driver. 
Open & shut case. 
You got your dash covered, right?....


----------



## JC17 (Oct 16, 2017)

Sounded like he had a pax


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

Hopefully Jessica was able to hook up with one of the guys in the bar so the whole evening was not a waste.


----------



## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

Once again this happened around bar closing time. It's just not worth it. Especially not for what Uber is paying in most of Florida. Imagine if the driver didn't have a dashcam or a firearm. The driver was doing nothing but his job and this jealous fool was going to try to to mess with him for that all due to a misunderstanding.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.wftv.com/news/local/ube...ng-him-in-polk-county-officials-say/822975102
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well at least the guy shot is no great loss to the world. Only his mother will care, if she's alive.


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

touberornottouber said:


> Imagine if the driver didn't have a dashcam or a firearm.


Imagine if Billy Joe Bad-Ass DID have a firearm, or a club, or a baseball bat, or a knife...



Fuzzyelvis said:


> Well at least the guy shot is no great loss to the world. Only his mother will care, if she's alive.


Chances are, if she is alive...she was in the bar with Jessica. It was Ladies Night, after all!


----------



## 1.5xorbust (Nov 22, 2017)

Better to be alive and deactivated than dead and not deactivated. Should be required viewing for all Uber pax.


----------



## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

Updated news account is reporting that the aggressor was stalking his girlfriend, and he mistakenly thought his girlfriend was in the Uber car. 
Total idiot, total fail!


----------



## chitownXdriver (Dec 24, 2014)

Wonder if he'll get deactivated


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

chitownXdriver said:


> Wonder if he'll get deactivated


I would guess yes. Or best case scenario the investigation and case closed but the chief basically sounded like it was over


----------



## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

chitownXdriver said:


> Wonder if he'll get deactivated


Probably, but at least he'll be alive to know it.


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

Uber's Guber said:


> Probably, but at least he'll be alive to know it.


There's always lyft lol


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

Maybe not


----------



## 1.5xorbust (Nov 22, 2017)

I’m sure the driver can get whatever letter Uber requires from the Sheriff without a problem.


----------



## freddieman (Oct 24, 2016)

IMO I can’t fault the uber driver for the shooting. Can’t say it was justified also. Not the first choice I would pick. When seeing the other driver get out of car, I would have immediately put in reverse and try to escape from there. If the other driver continue to pursue, then gun use could be justified. 

I wouldn’t want this guy on the police force. His thought process is to go to gun first. U see how quick he had his hand on the gun?....as if it was just an extension of himself.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.wftv.com/news/local/ube...ng-him-in-polk-county-officials-say/822975102
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another dead meth head


----------



## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

freddieman said:


> Not the first choice I would pick. When seeing the other driver get out of car, I would have immediately put in reverse and try to escape from there. If the other driver continue to pursue, then gun use could be justified.


You have no idea what you would have done. The sudden threat of danger at 2:30 am in the dark was instantly imminent. Most victims would probably panic, freeze, and be shot. The Uber driver acted accordingly. The aggressor only has himself to blame.


freddieman said:


> His thought process is to go to gun first. U see how quick he had his hand on the gun?


The suddenness of the aggressor's actions left no time for "diplomacy." The aggressor screamed he had a gun and was going to shoot the driver. Your Monday-morning quarterback "thought process" was to put the car in reverse and leave. The aggressor could pump 15 rounds into you and your vehicle before you had time to leave the scene.


freddieman said:


> Can't say it was justified


It's more than justified. The aggressor had an extensive criminal record. On this particular night he was stalking some other woman, and mistakenly thought the other woman he was stalking was riding inside this particular Uber car, and he even sent a text telling the woman he was stalking that he was going to commit harm to this unaware Uber driver who had no idea that this intent to commit a crime against him was even taking place. The aggressor picked the wrong place & time to be an aggressor and paid for it with his life. Sometimes, this is the price an idiot pays for choosing to live the life as a habitual violent human being, and now he's in the morgue and only has himself to blame.


----------



## HotUberMess (Feb 25, 2018)

Uber's Guber said:


> You have no idea what you would have done.


Exactly. Buncha monday morning quarterbacking. *Driver stayed alive, main objective accomplished, good job.*


----------



## Driving4Change (Aug 17, 2018)

Pulledclear said:


> Can you say trigger happy


In this case, it kept him alive. Would you rather be alive in a situation where someone threatened you with a gun, or dead? I've been held up at gun-point (but without one or any defense weapon). And trust me, that is not the time to become political with your opponent.

Long story short, I managed to keep from escalating the situation. My "friends" however, did not (at first). One was pistol whipped but no one was shot in the end.



pghuberaudi said:


> Should have called the police. And unless the driver who approached the driver behind him pulled a weapon (which it doesn't sound like he did)


I agree, but there's no telling if calling the police would have made it better our worse. If you did this, you would have needed to make it in conspicuous so that they're on in the background unknowingly. Chances of making this reality happen JUST RIGHT is hard.

My point above, the guy that had us kept threatening us saying how he "bet" someone would end up calling the police. It was a scare tactic largely, or at least he was trying to egg us on in several ways. He was angry.

This driver had a way to defend himself. Huge difference in how to handle this situation. We (my friends and I) did not.



freddieman said:


> I wouldn't want this guy on the police force. His thought process is to go to gun first.


This, I completely agree with. Only because we expect our police to have a much better training that would emphasize capturing and/or containing the perp. But we don't know what all the Uber driver had on-hand. Police usually have several types of tools on-hand to apprehend/use, along with their tread training.


----------



## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

BurgerTiime said:


> " Judd said. "This is a justifiable homicide all day long. You have the right to protect yourself. This is a classic, 'stand your ground case.'"
> .


Wasn't there a case last month in Pinellas Fl in which a man was actually assaulted and not just threatened that the stand your ground law was first thought then the state filed 2nd degree homocide charges against the man?


----------



## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

FloridaMan strikes again!

...And now he's dead.


----------



## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Driving4Change said:


> This, I completely agree with. Only because we expect our police to have a much better training that would emphasize capturing and/or containing the perp. But we don't know what all the Uber driver had on-hand. Police usually have several types of tools on-hand to apprehend/use, along with their tread training.


...and a kevlar vest...


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Wasn't there a case last month in Pinellas Fl in which a man was actually assaulted and not just threatened that the stand your ground law was first thought then the state filed 2nd degree homocide charges against the man?


Yes, but there are two differences between the cases:

One much misunderstood aspect of the Pinellas County case was that the Sheriff there was NOT saying the shooting was justified. He was explaining (not terribly well) that in such cases Florida's Stand Your Ground law _prevents_ law enforcement from making an immediate arrest. I'm not sure he is correct in saying that, but that's what he was trying to say. He never said the shooting was justified.
The next step in the Pinellas County case was that the State Attorney's Office reviewed the evidence and charged the shooter. That decision was at least partially influenced by community protests.
Watch and see -- that defendant's defense will NOT be Stand Your Ground. It will be pure, traditional self-defense. "He knocked me down, he was threatening me, I was in fear for my life." Whether that's successful remains to be seen.

In the Polk County Case, the Sheriff was saying the shooting *was* justified, and I think most of us agree with him. Again, Stand Your Ground had nothing to do with it, and if the Uber driver is eventually charged, he too will use a pure self-defense argument. I personally don't think he will be (or should be) charged.


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

Anyone know if the shooter detained and under arrest and out on bond? From interviews looks like he isn't


----------



## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Some of you Monday Morning quarterbacks are being way too hard on the driver. You have the benefit of watching the video over and over. The driver had just a few seconds to react when he thought his life was in danger. A few seconds is not enough time to ponder the situation and is just a quick reaction. I would bet most "real" Police Officers would have reacted the same way. Our society will be better off when we get back to personal accountability. Actions have consequences! You want to chase someone down and cut them off on a dark lonely highway - you are making yourself a threat. You hop out of your car and move aggressively toward another car - you are making yourself a threat. You tell me you have a gun and are going to kill me...I believe you. Coulda, shoulda, woulda is all with the benefit of hindsight. In those few seconds survival instincts kick in. Actions have consequences and the dead man's actions are what led to his death plain and simple.


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

To be honest I am impressed he only shot him once cause I probably would of used a few more shots in a split second situation like that


----------



## possibledriver (Dec 16, 2014)

Kodyhead said:


> Maybe not
> View attachment 255721


Does this mean that Uber is dropping the no guns policy?


----------



## PHXTE (Jun 23, 2015)

This one ticks all the boxes for a legal self defense.

The deceased was the aggressor who chased down the Uber driver, forced him into a "corner', got out of his vehicle and approached the victim and threatened him with deadly force.

That's a good shoot.


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

pghuberaudi said:


> He'll probably get away with it. Florida has "Stand your ground." It was dumb on both of their parts. Dude should have never gotten out of his car, let alone threaten the other guy. Should have called the police. And unless the driver who approached the driver behind him pulled a weapon (which it doesn't sound like he did) then the driver in the back should have thrown it in reverse and backed away.
> 
> I've spent a little time in the Lakeland area which is near this place. It's a bunch of trailer park ******** and this is typical behavior.


You should read more in depth on the case and watch the dashcam videos. It was a clearly justified self-defense shooting. And the Sheriff's news conference is worth watching just for comic value alone.


----------



## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

JimKE said:


> You should read more in depth on the case and watch the dashcam videos. It was a clearly justified self-defense shooting. And the Sheriff's news conference is worth watching just for comic value alone.


Thankfully there are still states that dont have "Cower and hide like a helpless lamb for the slaughter" law.


----------



## Aerodrifting (Aug 13, 2017)

From the dashcam video, You can see the truck driver was clearly holding something like a pistol in his right hand, Even though in reality it is a cellphone.When you are stopped by a truck at midnight on the freeway, With the truck driver jumping out shouting he wants to kill you along with something resembles a pistol in his right hand, Given the few seconds you have, Self-defense is the best course of action. Shooting justified.


----------



## Lawlet91 (Jun 8, 2017)

You also have to remember that this is Florida, we breed the crazies down here like nowhere else. When someone is tailing you gets out and starts threatening your life it’s high likelihood to be a valid threat. Action was took that was totally necessary and justified.


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

Aerodrifting said:


> From the dashcam video, You can see the truck driver was clearly holding something like a pistol in his right hand, Even though in reality it is a cellphone.When you are stopped by a truck at midnight on the freeway, With the truck driver jumping out shouting he wants to kill you along with something resembles a pistol in his right hand, Given the few seconds you have, Self-defense is the best course of action. Shooting justified.


Correct, except it wasn't a freeway. It was a deserted, unlit rural road. The moron jumped out of his truck, almost running, shouting "I have a pistol. Do you want me to shoot you?

By the time he said that he was already past the front of the Uber, out of sight of the dashcam and almost at the driver's door. The next sound is one pop.

The Uber driver was so sure the moron had a weapon in his hand that he kicked it away from the guy, as he'd been trained to do in the police academy. Only after he'd kicked it away did he realize it was a cellphone.

Anybody who thinks this is not justified has either not done their research or is clueless.


----------



## JohnnyWick (Mar 24, 2018)

Moral of this story: GET A DASHCAM


----------



## Merc7186 (Jul 8, 2017)

I just saw this on CNN.com

Many things went right here....first off...

DASHCAM

Dashcam showed the whole thing unfold. The guy driving threatened that he had a gun and asked if he wanted to shoot the driver then reached for something. Bang.

Secondly, the sheriff stated during his press conference...

Dont mess with an Uber Driver


Pax probably didnt tip though...


----------



## Marco Solo (Oct 5, 2017)

I can just see Boober's reaction:

1) The driver defended himself & the life of his passenger: Good for him.

2) Uber allows no weapons in cars: Shame on him. He risks deactivation.

3) Pax safety requires driver to back up & get out of there instead of getting out to confront a crazy motorist: Shame on him.


----------



## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Correction



KK2929 said:


> Example of what happens when -- alcohol, *marijuana and meth* is mixed with guns and stupidity.





Marco Solo said:


> I can just see Boober's reaction:
> 
> 1) The driver defended himself & the life of his passenger: Good for him.
> 
> ...


Since theres 20 threads on this, in one of them, theres mention that uber made a statement that if the driver submits a letter stating he is not being charged he would be reinstated.


----------



## RaleighUber (Dec 4, 2016)

A Florida Uber driver who claimed self defense in a new stand your ground controversy will not face charges for the deadly shooting of another driver. Dash cam video from the Tuesday confrontation shows Jason Boek approach the car and apparently threaten the driver before he was shot.

Read more here:


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

Thanks for contributing but there are 50 other threads already


----------



## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

I love that sheriff. He’s right. You should probably think about who you choose to assault no matter how big you think your beer muscles are. A 9mm hollow point will make quick work of you.


----------



## MoreTips (Feb 13, 2017)

One less scumbag A-hole methhead off the streets of my state, chalk one up for the good guys.


----------



## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

News update: a meth pipe was found inside the aggressor's vehicle.... not that anybody was surprised.


----------



## chitownXdriver (Dec 24, 2014)

Lawlet91 said:


> this is Florida, we breed the crazies down here like nowhere else.


Nowhere else except Colorado


----------



## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

mrpjfresh said:


> I still am not even sure how Boek found the Uber driver unless his on-again/off-again go shared her location with this psycho methhead (allegedly...).


Boek was in the parking lot stalking his ex-girlfriend, and mistakenly thought his ex-girlfriend had climbed into the Uber vehicle. That is when Boek began chasing down the Uber driver who was unaware what was going down.



heynow321 said:


> I love that sheriff. He's right. You should probably think about who you choose to assault no matter how big you think your beer muscles are. A 9mm hollow point will make quick work of you.


That is so true. I have yet to meet anybody who was big enough to bend steel or bite the bullet.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Kodyhead said:


> To be honest I am impressed he only shot him once cause I probably would of used a few more shots in a split second situation like that


The training at Thunder Ranch is:

"Keep shooting him until he stops doing what you started shooting him for."

Christine


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Kodyhead said:


> It will be an interesting case but looks like the cops are backing the driver who is police trained. The victim had a cellphone in his hand.
> 
> I wonder if a case can be made in another area with same situation as the police training may work against him.


Reread the article. You'll find that the victim of this crime had a gun in his hand.



possibledriver said:


> Does this mean that Uber is dropping the no guns policy?


Uber is being pressed on multiple fronts on the subject.


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

KK2929 said:


> -----
> 
> If you look at the video in the news link ( top of photo) things are a little clearer. It states that the bearded man is the deceased.
> The deceased was sitting in the parking lot of the bar, texting the girlfriend who was inside the bar and claiming that he could see what she was doing.
> ...


Your math is wrong: it was a case of a stupid, inebriated, and violent man confronting a sober man who had a gun.


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

Fargle said:


> Reread the article. You'll find that the victim of this crime had a gun in his hand.


That's incorrect. He did not have a gun at all -- not on his person, or in his truck.

However, his first words as he exited the truck were,* "I have a pistol. Do you want me to shoot you?" * And as he said that, he raised his hand with something dark in it and advanced to the Uber vehicle.

The Uber driver shot him, and as soon as he hit the ground the driver kicked what he thought was a gun out of his hand and away from his body -- as he'd been trained in the police academy. It was only then that the driver realized that the object in the victim's hand was a cellphone.


----------



## possibledriver (Dec 16, 2014)

Kodyhead said:


> To be honest I am impressed he only shot him once cause I probably would of used a few more shots in a split second situation like that


At least a triple tap center of mass.


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

Fargle said:


> Reread the article. You'll find that the victim of this crime had a gun in his hand.
> 
> Uber is being pressed on multiple fronts on the subject.


Which one? I missed it and have not found anything that says he had or didnt have a gun, everyone seems to state the he was holding a cellphone

I was the one who posted in other sections and as we know the media often get things wrong and most articles claim we get dinged 20-25% today but found the wording interesting


----------



## NoPooPool (Aug 18, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> Trigger happy? If someone cuts me off at 2am and as he exits the vehicle, doesnt hesitate to get into my face while uttering the words "i have a pistol and i will shoot you" I take that as him wanting to play the room temperature challenge.
> 
> Boek won!
> 
> ...


Great summation IMHO, steveK. Westlake had a legitimate fear for his life, or great bodily harm. The video footage backs it up.

First thing I thought of was deescalate, back up, pull around and floor it, but with the aggressiveness and verbal threats, and Boek going to his waist and pulling out a black shiney object does not allow the luxury of the evasive driving maneuver, as the aggressor has already threatened you with "having a pistol, and will shoot you."

What was it somebody said a few posts back? Something to the effect of play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Simple truth.


----------



## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

possibledriver said:


> At least a triple tap center of mass.


That's standard training indeed: triple tap center, then cap to the head, because one shot often doesn't stop an immediate threat.
Apparently though, this "tuff-guy" dropped fast. I'm guessing maybe the perp was tagged by a +P heavy grain .40 hollow point load that landed in the heart with massive expansion allowed due to the thin clothing worn by the perp.
I don't know for sure, just an observation. Heck of a aim though, considering the timing & stress factors that quickly transpired in the dark.


----------



## possibledriver (Dec 16, 2014)

Kodyhead said:


> Which one? I missed it and have not found anything that says he had or didnt have a gun, everyone seems to state the he was holding a cellphone
> 
> I was the one who posted in other sections and as we know the media often get things wrong and most articles claim we get dinged 20-25% today but found the wording interesting
> View attachment 256097


There's a video link above the pic in the first message of this thread. You can clearly hear the assailant saying he has a gun and is going to shoot the Uber driver.


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

I misunderstood I thought you said he actually had a gun and from what I Interpreted there was none at all or in the truck


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Christinebitg said:


> The training at Thunder Ranch is:
> 
> "Keep shooting him until he stops doing what you started shooting him for."
> 
> Christine


Same at Front Sight Firearms Training Institute. Shoot until the threat is stopped.


----------



## beezlewaxin (Feb 10, 2015)

An analysis of this particular defensive encounter was just posted over on the _Active Self Protection_ YouTube channel.

Check it out here:


----------



## NoPooPool (Aug 18, 2017)

beezlewaxin said:


> An analysis of this particular defensive encounter was just posted over on the _Active Self Protection_ YouTube channel.
> 
> Check it out here:


No link, beez. Ok, got it now.


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

Not a bad video, but his explanation of the legal justification for using deadly force is VERY incomplete.

The biggest shortcoming of the video is that he limits permissible use of deadly force to threats of DEATH. An imminent threat of death is only one of the reasons for using deadly force. The phrase about not having a duty to retreat is part of Florida's Stand Your Ground position -- but the other qualifications (death, great bodily harm, commission of a forcible felony) is very standard language that goes back to English Common Law, and is well-established law everywhere in the US.

Here are a couple of paragraphs from Florida's use of force statute:

*FSS 776.012 (2) "*_A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent *imminent death* *or* *great bodily harm* to himself or herself or another *or* to prevent the imminent *commission of a forcible felony*. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be."_

What is a forcible felony? Good question.

*FSS 776.08* _"Forcible felony.-"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual."_

Justified use of deadly force (which this clearly WAS) is much, much broader than the YouTube guy thinks. *It doesn't matter whether the assailant is armed.* What matters is whether the shooter reasonably believes that the assailant is about to do one of the things enumerated above.


----------



## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

Uber drivers reaction to shooting


----------



## RaleighUber (Dec 4, 2016)

Kodyhead said:


> It will be an interesting case but looks like the cops are backing the driver who is police trained. The victim had a cellphone in his hand.
> 
> I wonder if a case can be made in another area with same situation as the police training may work against him.


If he was not police connected, they would probably have charged him. Imagine your average uber driver shooting an un-armed man....


----------



## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

RaleighUber said:


> If he was not police connected, they would probably have charged him. Imagine your average uber driver shooting an un-armed man....


 What the **** are you talking about? When somebody approaches you and says they have a pistol and will shoot you you have every right to use deadly force in return. This case couldn't be any more clear or simple. The guy was 100% justified anyway you look at it.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

no camera and he would have been arrested.

The camera tells and backs up the story.


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> no camera and he would have been arrested.
> 
> The camera tells and backs up the story.


I don't know if he would have been arrested, but the camera certainly made the threat clear. Obviously his drunk pax was in no condition to be much of a witness.

This case is the best example yet of why everyone should have a dashcam.


----------



## possibledriver (Dec 16, 2014)

Uber's Guber said:


> That's standard training indeed: triple tap center, then cap to the head, because one shot often doesn't stop an immediate threat.
> Apparently though, this "tuff-guy" dropped fast. I'm guessing maybe the perp was tagged by a +P heavy grain .40 hollow point load that landed in the heart with massive expansion allowed due to the thin clothing worn by the perp.
> I don't know for sure, just an observation. Heck of a aim though, considering the timing & stress factors that quickly transpired in the dark.


One would be likely to miss the headshot with a pocket .380 with a 2.7 inch barrel. Just sayin.


----------



## TBone (Jan 19, 2015)

Sadly, Stand your Ground should be the law in all states. In Ohio, you have to be in fear of your life to shoot someone. And the person had better hit you before you kill them. 
Although, our Castle Doctrine does allow you to defend your home and car, if your in it, with deadly force. Not sure how this would go down in Ohio.


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

possibledriver said:


> One would be likely to miss the headshot with a pocket .380 with a 2.7 inch barrel. Just sayin.


One would probably miss a head shot with anything other than a shotgun. That's why police are trained to point, not aim, at center of mass.

In this particular case, the moron was right on top of the shooter and he obviously didn't have any problem hitting him. I haven't seen any info released on the distance between the two, but the assailant had passed the front bumper of the Uber and was out of view of the dash cam when the shot was fired. I'm pretty confident the distance between them was less than 10 feet, probably more like 4-5 feet, if that.

And I guarantee you he was not carrying a .380, lol.


----------



## RaleighUber (Dec 4, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> What the &%[email protected]!* are you talking about? When somebody approaches you and says they have a pistol and will shoot you you have every right to use deadly force in return. This case couldn't be any more clear or simple. The guy was 100% justified anyway you look at it.


Uh huh. And cops always do the right thing, never lie, never intimidate. What saved him was 1) he had video, 2) He has police connection. Average uber driver shoots someone on side of the road and they are charged and have $1M bail.


----------



## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

RaleighUber said:


> Uh huh. And cops always do the right thing, never lie, never intimidate. What saved him was 1) he had video, 2) He has police connection. Average uber driver shoots someone on side of the road and they are charged and have $1M bail.


uh no. especially not in florida.


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

RaleighUber said:


> Uh huh. And cops always do the right thing, never lie, never intimidate. What saved him was 1) he had video, 2) He has police connection. Average uber driver shoots someone on side of the road and they are charged and have $1M bail.


You sound angry. Are you okay? Are you unhappy about something?


----------



## Clothahump (Mar 31, 2018)

JimKE said:


> This is what I don't like about Florida's "stand your ground" law. This is a classic case of *traditional* self-defense. "Stand your ground" has nothing to do with this case and will only muddy the waters.


Hey, it's the liberal media. Everything is stand your ground these days. I'm surprised they didn't report that the driver shot him with an assault rifle.


----------



## Marco Solo (Oct 5, 2017)

So, was he deactivated for violating Boober's no-weapons policy?


----------



## NoPooPool (Aug 18, 2017)

Marco Solo said:


> So, was he deactivated for violating Boober's no-weapons policy?


Of course he was.


----------



## Marco Solo (Oct 5, 2017)

NoPooPool said:


> Of course he was.


How do we know?


----------



## NoPooPool (Aug 18, 2017)

Marco Solo said:


> How do we know?


I heard that reported on the news locally in Chicago on either ABC-7 or WGN-9 on Wednesday (don't recall which channel I had on at that time). It was reported that he drove on both Uber and a Lyft platforms, and that being armed with a firearm is against company policy for both drivers and passengers, with both companies, and that he was deactivated by both companies in the aftermath of the shooting.


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

Actually, *NO *the driver was not deactivated. He was suspended temporarily until he can produce a letter from authorities saying he is not a person of interest in the investigation. Hopefully, Kody can post that screenshot he has.

*The reason he was not deactivated is an interesting part of Florida's weapons laws*, quoted verbatim below.

Thanks to Rman954 for looking this up for us, but keep in mind that this only applies in Florida.

Here's the text of the law, Florida Statute 790.251:

_The law is called 790.251 Protection of the right to keep and bear arms in motor vehicles for self-defense and other lawful purposes;

(e) No public or private employer may terminate the employment of or otherwise discriminate against an employee, or expel a customer or invitee for exercising his or her constitutional right to keep and bear arms or for exercising the right of self-defense as long as a firearm is never exhibited on company property for any reason other than lawful defensive purposes.

And the legal language about "employee"

(c) "Employee" means any person who possesses a valid license issued pursuant to s. 790.06 and:
1. Works for salary, wages, or other remuneration;
2. Is an independent contractor; or
3. Is a volunteer, intern, or other similar individual for an employer._

*****
FSS 790.06, referred to above, is Florida's Concealed Weapon License statute -- so this means Florida drivers must possess a current CCW license to be covered by 790.251.



Clothahump said:


> Hey, it's the liberal media. Everything is stand your ground these days. I'm surprised they didn't report that the driver shot him with an assault rifle.


In fairness, the Sheriff is the one who cited Stand Your Ground in his humorous press conference. If you haven't watched the video of his press conference, you should -- just for comic value.

But bottom line, the good Sheriff was right -- pure self defense, the driver did absolutely nothing wrong.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Well.
People who have had to shoot other people as citizens in their day to day lives.
Sleep with lights on.
Floodlights outside.
Watch for avenging crazy friends and relatives.
Have bad dreams.

I would not shoot anyone unless i had to.


----------



## NoPooPool (Aug 18, 2017)

JimKE said:


> Actually, *NO *the driver was not deactivated. He was suspended temporarily until he can produce a letter from authorities saying he is not a person of interest in the investigation. Hopefully, Kody can post that screenshot he has.
> 
> *The reason he was not deactivated is an interesting part of Florida's weapons laws*, quoted verbatim below.
> 
> ...


Hmmm! Good informaion, and summary. Florida law is a bit more unique in this regard comparatively to the majority of other states and municipalities, and especially in the sanctuary states and cities.

I wonder why that local news in Chicago reported what they did? I suspect the were just speculating without verifying the story. Sounds like fake news from the liberal media. I am not surprised.


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

JimKE said:


> That's incorrect. He did not have a gun at all -- not on his person, or in his truck.
> 
> However, his first words as he exited the truck were,* "I have a pistol. Do you want me to shoot you?" * And as he said that, he raised his hand with something dark in it and advanced to the Uber vehicle.
> 
> The Uber driver shot him, and as soon as he hit the ground the driver kicked what he thought was a gun out of his hand and away from his body -- as he'd been trained in the police academy. It was only then that the driver realized that the object in the victim's hand was a cellphone.


Reread the article again. The_ j_


JimKE said:


> That's incorrect. He did not have a gun at all -- not on his person, or in his truck.
> 
> However, his first words as he exited the truck were,* "I have a pistol. Do you want me to shoot you?" * And as he said that, he raised his hand with something dark in it and advanced to the Uber vehicle.
> 
> The Uber driver shot him, and as soon as he hit the ground the driver kicked what he thought was a gun out of his hand and away from his body -- as he'd been trained in the police academy. It was only then that the driver realized that the object in the victim's hand was a cellphone.


You got the victim and perpetrator confused. The victim (Uber driver) had the gun. The perpetrator (drunk asshole) did not, but pretended to have one.



possibledriver said:


> One would be likely to miss the headshot with a pocket .380 with a 2.7 inch barrel. Just sayin.


Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the gun and how well you can handle it. A .22lr NAA mini-revolver is shiat for aiming, but it travels much easier than larger guns. That's its big advantage.


----------



## Marco Solo (Oct 5, 2017)

Fargle said:


> Reread the article again. You got the victim and perpetrator confused. The victim (Uber driver) had the gun. The perpetrator (drunk asshole) did not, but pretended to have one.


 Semantics can be tricky. In a fatal shooting where only the shooter has a gun, the victim, by definition, is the person shot dead and the shooter (however justified) is the perpetrator. The latter term has acquired tremendous negative stigma from its use in modern TV & film. But "perpetrator" is not always or necessarily synonymous for "suspect" or "criminal"--or "guilty." One can perpetrate (be the cause of) a shooting without criminal intent & be exonerated after an inquest, or not even be charged for the shooting. But until the initial investigation is completed, the shooter in such a situation will remain the perpetrator.


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Marco Solo said:


> Semantics can be tricky. In a fatal shooting where only the shooter has a gun, the victim, by definition, is the person shot dead and the shooter (however justified) is the perpetrator. The latter term has acquired tremendous negative stigma from its use in modern TV & film. But "perpetrator" is not always or necessarily synonymous for "suspect" or "criminal"--or "guilty." One can perpetrate (be the cause of) a shooting without criminal intent & be exonerated after an inquest, or not even be charged for the shooting. But until the initial investigation is completed, the shooter in such a situation will remain the perpetrator.


Your use of "victim" to describe the committer of a crime is very strange. Who besides you use it like that? I'm not in law enforcement directly, but several close relatives are and they never use the word "victim" that way.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> I'm not in law enforcement directly, but several close relatives are and they never use the word "victim" that way.


Okay, I'll bite. What words do they use? (Thanks!)

C


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

Fargle said:


> Your use of "victim" to describe the committer of a crime is very strange. Who besides you use it like that? I'm not in law enforcement directly, but several close relatives are and they never use the word "victim" that way.


Well, for my entire 25 year law enforcement career (including several years in homicide investigations), the "victim" of any homicide was the person who died. YMMV,

"Homicide," incidentally does NOT mean murder, nor does it have any connotation of illegal activity. It simply means death by other than natural causes. Accidental deaths, suicides, vehicle fatalities, etc are all homicides, and deaths from unknown causes (many, many natural deaths) are also investigated as homicides. And the deceased is the "victim."



Fargle said:


> Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the gun and how well you can handle it. A .22lr NAA mini-revolver is shiat for aiming, but it travels much easier than larger guns. That's its big advantage.


My advice is don't bring a BB-gun to a gunfight.

If you are going to carry some kind of weapon for self protection, carry something that will STOP an assailant. A .22lr will certainly kill them just as dead with the right shot, but it's not going to have much stopping power. They might not even know they were hit.

If you want to carry a .22, carry an AR-15 (.223 cal), lol.


----------



## HotUberMess (Feb 25, 2018)

JimKE said:


> Actually, *NO *the driver was not deactivated. He was suspended temporarily until he can produce a letter from authorities saying he is not a person of interest in the investigation. Hopefully, Kody can post that screenshot he has.
> 
> *The reason he was not deactivated is an interesting part of Florida's weapons laws*, quoted verbatim below.
> 
> ...


The Stand Your Ground thing.. I know out-of-staters like to think of it as only some outrageous law, but cases like this are exactly the kind it was made for.


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> Okay, I'll bite. What words do they use? (Thanks!)
> 
> C


They use "victim" for a shooting with no other context. Once there's context, as in this case, the person who was shot while committing a crime is then called a perpetrator or suspect and tge shooter is called "victim".


----------



## Marco Solo (Oct 5, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> Okay, I'll bite. What words do they use? (Thanks!)


Well, when I was a military LEO, we simply said, "the deceased."


----------



## Stav53 (Nov 9, 2017)

JimKE said:


> Well, for my entire 25 year law enforcement career (including several years in homicide investigations), the "victim" of any homicide was the person who died. YMMV,
> 
> "Homicide," incidentally does NOT mean murder, nor does it have any connotation of illegal activity. It simply means death by other than natural causes. Accidental deaths, suicides, vehicle fatalities, etc are all homicides, and deaths from unknown causes (many, many natural deaths) are also investigated as homicides. And the deceased is the "victim."
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarification.
What would recommend as a handgun for self defense? 
Thanks


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Stav53 said:


> What would recommend as a handgun for self defense?


The one with the largest caliber that you can comfortably control. But if its too bulky or too heavy you might leave it at home. It must be dependable. A misfire can be fatal. I'd suggest a minimum of 300 rounds using the ammo you intend to carry without a stoppage before it can be considered reliable. I go an extra step and take a class that requires 800 rounds. If it goes through that I consider the firearm reliable. I have a $1000 Colt that is not reliable enough for carry. Personally, I like the 1911 with an aluminum frame and stainless slide chambered in 45 ACP. The typical recommendation for a new shooter is a Glock in 9mm. Try to avoid a .22 or a .25. 380 should be the smallest mouse gun. Practice, practice and more practice. https://www.frontsight.com/courses/defensive-handgun-training-course.asp


----------



## Stav53 (Nov 9, 2017)

I do have a glock 9mm at home, but when driving I carry the glock .380 cuz it’s smaller and better concealed. I do go to shooting range from time to time but not too often I’m afraid. My current glocks are quite reliable never had a jamming problem after 3 years of ownership. Not sure how many shot though.
Thanks


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

bsliv said:


> The one with the largest caliber that you can comfortably control. But if its too bulky or too heavy you might leave it at home. It must be dependable. A misfire can be fatal. I'd suggest a minimum of 300 rounds using the ammo you intend to carry without a stoppage before it can be considered reliable. I go an extra step and take a class that requires 800 rounds. If it goes through that I consider the firearm reliable. I have a $1000 Colt that is not reliable enough for carry. Personally, I like the 1911 with an aluminum frame and stainless slide chambered in 45 ACP. The typical recommendation for a new shooter is a Glock in 9mm. Try to avoid a .22 or a .25. 380 should be the smallest mouse gun. Practice, practice and more practice. https://www.frontsight.com/courses/defensive-handgun-training-course.asp


I'd go for a 38 snubnose revolver, a 9mm Subcompact or a 45 sub compact.

You'll get the stopping power at short ranges and it will be easier to use a smaller gun with a shorter barrel in a very confined space and or one handed.

A 38 will get the job done at arms length, which is going to be the scenario for uber/lyft/taxi driving.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

bsliv said:


> a minimum of 300 rounds


Dear God, what kind of firefight are you expecting to get into?

I can't carry that many rounds in a purse, no matter what caliber the weapon is.

Christine


----------



## NoPooPool (Aug 18, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> Dear God, what kind of firefight are you expecting to get into?
> 
> I can't carry that many rounds in a purse, no matter what caliber the weapon is.
> 
> Christine


QUOTE
"It must be dependable. A misfire can be fatal. I'd suggest a minimum of 300 rounds using the ammo you intend to carry without a stoppage before it can be considered reliable."

Dear God is right Christine.

Without taking this as an insult, you need to do much better on your reading comprehension.

What bsliv is suggesting in his statement is that he would fire a minimum of 300 rounds practicing at the range, using the ammo you intend to carry, and without any stoppages, before he would consider the weapon as reliable enough to be your weapon of choice for carrying concealed. He certainly is not suggesting that one should carry 300 rounds on your person or in a purse to be ready for a firefight of that magnitude.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

NoPooPool said:


> What bsliv is suggesting in his statement is that he would fire a minimum of 300 rounds practicing at the range


That's not actually what he said.

It may be what he intended, but it's not what he said.

C


----------



## NoPooPool (Aug 18, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> That's not actually what he said.
> 
> It may be what he intended, but it's not what he said.
> 
> C


Ok, even though there should be some things assumed, he certainly was not suggesting carrying a minimum of 300 rounds as he infers that a misfire can be fatal, and he goes on to speak of taking a class that requires firing 800 rounds. His whole suggestion was in regard to reliability, not about how much ammo one should carry for self defense.

Use some common sense. At no time is he suggesting that you need to actually carry a minimum of 300 rounds for self defense purposes.

Please tell me you were poking fun at the mention of 300 rounds minimum for self defense, and were not reading the post to literally think he suggested carrying 300 rounds.

Maybe some other members on the forum can check in on how it reads in your mind.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

NoPooPool said:


> Please tell me you were poking fun at the mention of 300 rounds minimum for self defense, and were not reading the post to literally think he suggested carrying 300 rounds.


My mistake was seeing the first of what he wrote, and then mostly skipping over the rest of it. My bad.

The more I thought about it later, the more I realized you were right.

Slight change of subject - do you agree with him about how many rounds to fire off while you're at a range, to assure dependability? Getting competent might be quite a few, too. Anyhow, 300 sounds high for that, not to mention 800.

Particularly if a person has a Glock, which I'm told is about as reliable as a Toyota.

Christine


----------



## Marco Solo (Oct 5, 2017)

Depends on the range, the weapon, what you'll need it for, and how you will use it.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Christinebitg said:


> My mistake was seeing the first of what he wrote, and then mostly skipping over the rest of it. My bad.
> 
> The more I thought about it later, the more I realized you were right.
> 
> ...


All 300 rounds don't have to be done on the same day. It takes 4 days of class time to expend 800 rounds.

Practice is good. But make it good practice. Always be safe. Treat every firearms as if its loaded. Never point the muzzle at anything you're not willing to destroy. Keep your finger off the bang switch until ready to fire. Know what's beyond your target.

Out of the box a Glock is one of the most reliable. But its not as reliable as a revolver. Given the circumstances in which it may be used, it should be much more reliable than the best Toyota. Being stranded at the side of the road is one thing. Having to throw your firearm at the attacker is another. 
http://site.lvhost2.com:82/web/fa/sounds/03-Skills-Test-Malfunction-and-Reload-Drills.mp3


----------



## NoPooPool (Aug 18, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> My mistake was seeing the first of what he wrote, and then mostly skipping over the rest of it. My bad.
> 
> The more I thought about it later, the more I realized you were right.
> 
> ...


I would say 100-300 rounds would not be unheard of to test fire for reliability, and barely scratches the surface in becoming competent. That takes practice, practice, practice. The thing you have to remember is the cartridge that you really should use for self defense is usually hollow points, which are more costly than full metal jacket rounds that are more suited for range practice. So I would say maybe a mixture of round nose FMJ, and also hollow points. At least 100-150 rounds total, but again 300 rounds is not far fetched.

Personally, I am a big fan of Smith & Wesson M&P 9, or M&P 9C. C designates compact, with a 3.5" barrel for concealed carry. The Smith & Wesson M&P Shield 9mm is another highly rated smaller carry weapon and has a 3.1" barrel. They are known for being quite dependable and highly concealable. My Smith & Wesson M&P 9C has had about 1600 rounds run through it, and I did have 2 or 3 failures to eject or stove pipes when brand new on my first range session. That was when I was new to shooting and it might have been operator error from limp wristing or could have been due to the fact that I fired 150 rounds through it straight out of the box. I soon learned that you should actually clean the gun first before firing it to clean off the heavy factory lubrication that they are usually shipped with. It has been flawless for the last 1450 rounds fired after that first range session and subsequent cleaning.

The absolute most dependable handgun I have in my safe is a Turkish gun that was purchased brand new online for $300 plus $27 shipping. It is a Canik TP9V2. It is a single action/double action 9mm polymer striker fired gun. I have fired 1150 rounds through the pipe, and it has gone bang each time I pulled the trigger.

Glocks have a great reputation for being very dependable, but I have read articles on Glocks having had a few bad manufacturing runs, and even had a few of them blow apart early on in it's life on their first range action. YMMV


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

I'm familiar with the difference between hollow points and target rounds. When you're at a range, stopping power doesn't provide a lot of benefit.

C


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> I'm familiar with the difference between hollow points and target rounds. When you're at a range, stopping power doesn't provide a lot of benefit.
> 
> C


Hollow points can feed and shoot differently from FMJ rounds. This varies with the designs of the gun and bullet. It used to be that most self-loading pistols would misfeed hollow points. The differences in shape can mean differences in how accurate accurately a bullet flies. You still need some practice with hollow points, but not quite as much as with target ammo.


----------



## NoPooPool (Aug 18, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> I'm familiar with the difference between hollow points and target rounds. When you're at a range, stopping power doesn't provide a lot of benefit.
> 
> C


Very true, but it is a good idea to test fire some hollow points at the range to make sure that particular HP runs well through the barrel. Some hollow points tend to hang up a bit on certain guns, and may be more prone to a stoppage compared to round nose or flat nose practice rounds.


----------



## PHXTE (Jun 23, 2015)

Christinebitg said:


> That's not actually what he said.
> 
> It may be what he intended, but it's not what he said.
> 
> C


It should be common sense that he isn't advocating carrying 300 rounds, durrrrr.

I knew what he was trying to say, the keyword there is "stoppage", if you know anything about guns. Don't be obtuse.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Christinebitg said:


> I'm familiar with the difference between hollow points and target rounds. When you're at a range, stopping power doesn't provide a lot of benefit.
> 
> C


you need to actually PRACTICE with the type of round you plan to carry.

Different bullets have different flight/recoil characteristics.

So at the range stopping power doesn't help no,

But it will help your accuracy when your using your gun OFF the range.


----------



## Julescase (Mar 29, 2017)

Uber's Guber said:


> You have no idea what you would have done. The sudden threat of danger at 2:30 am in the dark was instantly imminent. Most victims would probably panic, freeze, and be shot. The Uber driver acted accordingly. The aggressor only has himself to blame.
> 
> The suddenness of the aggressor's actions left no time for "diplomacy." The aggressor screamed he had a gun and was going to shoot the driver. Your Monday-morning quarterback "thought process" was to put the car in reverse and leave. The aggressor could pump 15 rounds into you and your vehicle before you had time to leave the scene.
> 
> It's more than justified. The aggressor had an extensive criminal record. On this particular night he was stalking some other woman, and mistakenly thought the other woman he was stalking was riding inside this particular Uber car, and he even sent a text telling the woman he was stalking that he was going to commit harm to this unaware Uber driver who had no idea that this intent to commit a crime against him was even taking place. The aggressor picked the wrong place & time to be an aggressor and paid for it with his life. Sometimes, this is the price an idiot pays for choosing to live the life as a habitual violent human being, and now he's in the morgue and only has himself to blame.


Uber's Guber, sometimes I really love you. I read your responses to others and it's like I'm reading my own thoughts.

I was just coming here to say "you have no idea *what* you would have done in this scenario; until it happens to you, it's literally impossible to conceive of it happening or how you'd handle it."

It's quite hilarious to me when folks start lamenting about how they would have handled a major, massive, highly traumatic situation differently than the person who actually had to live through it.


----------

