# Another Lyft Service animal update, riddle me this Lyft?



## dryverjohn (Jun 3, 2018)

My service animal is a pitbull that sits in the passenger seat. I sure hope your policy for drivers is the same as pax. I feel much less anxiety when my pitbull with a spiked collar is next to me. I am assuming that this is acceptable? Thank you for clarifying.

For the record, I pickup everyone with a service animal and all people with wheel chairs. I highly doubt that most of the animals that have been in my car, with a collar, were actually service animals. I don't ask.


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

The first time a pax claims that you the driver has an aggressive animal in your vehicle, you're toast. Maybe not for having a "service animal," but because you "offended a pax" or (insert any other fake bullshit claim here.)
Good luck.


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## flyntflossy10 (Jun 2, 2017)

i think uber will allow it if your pitbull only responds to commands in german.


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## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

dryverjohn said:


> I feel much less anxiety when my pitbull with a spiked collar is next to me.


Based on your description, your pitbull is considered an emotional support animal. It doesn't qualify as a service dog according ADA guidelines.


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

It’s sad I have to commit a sin by allowing dogs in my car in order to be able to earn money to feed my family


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## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> It's sad I have to commit a sin by allowing dogs in my car in order to be able to earn money to feed my family


That's not a nice way to talk about your riders


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## dryverjohn (Jun 3, 2018)

Pax Collector said:


> Based on your description, your pitbull is considered an emotional support animal. It doesn't qualify as a service dog according ADA guidelines.


I guess I should read up on the ada guidelines to see if I have been allowing emotional support dogs in my car, rather than service dogs. If they need the vest, I have had 0 service dogs. The pitbull reference was an example.


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## rallias (May 16, 2018)

flyntflossy10 said:


> i think uber will allow it if your pitbull only responds to commands in german.


Nein. Achtung. NEIN NEIN NEIN.

Are pitbulls even legal in Germany?


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

Pax Collector said:


> That's not a nice way to talk about your riders


Most riders are even lower than dogs


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## Uberbrent (Mar 22, 2016)

So...when you have 4 pax, where does the dog go?


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## Las Vegas Dude (Sep 3, 2018)

Passenger pax’s lap.


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## Pax Collector (Feb 18, 2018)

dryverjohn said:


> I guess I should read up on the ada guidelines to see if I have been allowing emotional support dogs in my car, rather than service dogs. If they need the vest, I have had 0 service dogs. The pitbull reference was an example.


My advice is not to. Pax will complain and you'll still get deactivated with no one hearing your side of the story, or investigating whether it was an actual service animal or not.

P.S. They need not have Vests, or any type of paperwork, and you're not allowed to ask for neither of the two. You can only ask two questions,

"Is this a service animal that's required because of a disability?"

"What task is it trained to perform?"

That's it. But like I said, I wouldn't take it that far and risk deactivation. Pick up the dog, if they make a mess, take pictures, save your dashcam footage and submit them for a cleaning fee.

Everything I mentioned can be found on here:

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

dryverjohn said:


> My service animal is a pitbull that sits in the passenger seat. I sure hope your policy for drivers is the same as pax. I feel much less anxiety when my pitbull with a spiked collar is next to me. I am assuming that this is acceptable? Thank you for clarifying.
> 
> For the record, I pickup everyone with a service animal and all people with wheel chairs. I highly doubt that most of the animals that have been in my car, with a collar, were actually service animals. I don't ask.


Pawtism drivers with his or her legitamite service animal. Your pitbull with spiked collar is not a legitamite service animal.

That's your fault for not asking. By law, You can ask two questions. If they fail either of them, you can deny them service.



dryverjohn said:


> I guess I should read up on the ada guidelines to see if I have been allowing emotional support dogs in my car, rather than service dogs. If they need the vest, I have had 0 service dogs. The pitbull reference was an example.


Service animals do not need a vest and disabilities are not always visually evident.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Just for the record....

Pit bulls can make wonderful service animals, all stereotypes aside.


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> Pawtism drivers with his or her legitamite service animal.


Anyone heard from Pawtism? He hasn't posted in months.


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

I'd like to bring my dog to work but she doesn't fit in the front seat and barely in the back.


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## kcdrvr15 (Jan 10, 2017)

Service animals can not display any form of aggressive behavior, if they do so, they loose protection under the ada


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## GreatGooglyMoogly (Mar 2, 2018)

dryverjohn said:


> I guess I should read up on the ada guidelines to see if I have been allowing emotional support dogs in my car, rather than service dogs. If they need the vest, I have had 0 service dogs. The pitbull reference was an example.


There is NO REQUIREMENT for a vest. The vest is useful, but not required under the ADA. Any service dog owner will tell you that a vested dog tends to act differently...it's their cue that they are at work and not at home when they get to be a dog.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Pax Collector said:


> Everything I mentioned can be found on here:
> 
> https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html


Excellent post, thanks for the link.

In particular, people here may want to pay attention to a couple of those items:

Q12 - which says that hotels are NOT allowed to change a fee for cleaning up the dog hair of a service dog. (Not talking about emotional support animals now. *Service* dogs.)

No, you're not a hotel. Yes, this item still applies to you.

Q30 - which says
"Individuals also have the right to file a private lawsuit in Federal court charging the entity with discrimination under the ADA."

Here's why this is important - All the people here who go on endlessly about being individual contracts are right. They're individual contractors who can be sued individually for not taking a person who has a legitimate service animal.

You may not be collectible if someone gets a judgement against you. But it can seriously eff up your future anyway. And you won't be able to do ridesharing driving for Uber, Lyft, or anyone else at all. The judgement is a matter of public record, and will very likely be found by any background check.

Just take the d*mn dog. It's not worth doing otherwise.


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## Merc7186 (Jul 8, 2017)

New York state carefully spells out which type of dogs are considered for service animals. Pit Bulls, although great animals, are not considered a service animal here.

Also, thankfully NY does not consider Emotional Support animals as a service animal...thank god.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Merc7186 said:


> New York state carefully spells out which type of dogs are considered for service animals. Pit Bulls, although great animals, are not considered a service animal here.
> 
> Also, thankfully NY does not consider Emotional Support animals as a service animal...thank god.


Too bad for NY thst they don't get to pick and choose the breed.

The federal law supercedes the state one. Pits, if of the correct demeanor and properly trained for tasks, cannot be denied.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Christinebitg said:


> Excellent post, thanks for the link.
> 
> In particular, people here may want to pay attention to a couple of those items:
> 
> ...


The part about cleaning is ddifferent. A hotel charges include basic cleaning. They have a maid service that turns over the rooms daily. Its part of the cost of the hotel room. If they don't/wont charge a pet for clean up they cant charge a service animal. Vaccuming dog hair is easy as part of the standard cleaning and wipe down service.

Rideshare is different as the cost of your ride does not include a cleaning service. A pet dog hair or mess will be charged so a service animal can be charged .

You just cant have a double standard. If its something you wouldn't charge a pet but would charge a service dog, thats discrimination. As lonh as both are charged equally, then its not discrimination.

A dog pisses and shits in a hotel room, pet or service animal, they'll get charged for it.



Merc7186 said:


> New York state carefully spells out which type of dogs are considered for service animals. Pit Bulls, although great animals, are not considered a service animal here.
> 
> Also, thankfully NY does not consider Emotional Support animals as a service animal...thank god.


The ADA doesnt either. If it did, NY wouldnt be able to make such a distinction themselves .


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

dryverjohn said:


> I guess I should read up on the ada guidelines to see if I have been allowing emotional support dogs in my car, rather than service dogs. If they need the vest, I have had 0 service dogs. The pitbull reference was an example.


No vest or certificate is needed, but only dogs can be service animals according to the ADA. (No pigs or little horses)

Also an emotional support dog is not a service dog

There are two questions we can ask. 1) is this a service dog and 2) what service or task has the dog been trained to do

We cannot ask what the disability is nor can we ask for a demonstration of the service or task

The folks that cheat (and I was one of them until my dog died) know how to lie when asked those two questions. If I was caught in my lie the consequences could have been serious but I learned that folks would rather just decide to believe me. Many were pretty sure the dog wasn't a service dog especially in her later years when I kept her in a stroller instead of on a leash but since the consequences to them could be severe if they were wrong and turned away a real service dog, they just accepted my lie. Of course if my dog was not well behaved they could toss me out anyway

So now I'm one of those guys that just chooses to believe the lie. (I don't even ask the questions. One day last week I had a cat and two dogs ride with me (three different rides) all were in carriers as we were going to or from the airport but as I've posted here before, I've had dogs ride in my lap as I drove and I have a regular customer that takes his Great Dane to work


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

I believe the only way to get rid of animals is that every driver that sees a tiny bit of hair/contamination/etc charge them the cleaning fee. This way gradually they give up booking uber and lyft. 
I extremely hate to take animals in my cars. They are dirty and they stink af. Plz find a solution!


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

oldfart said:


> No vest or certificate is needed, but only dogs can be service animals according to the ADA. (No pigs or little horses)
> 
> Also an emotional support dog is not a service dog
> 
> ...


Miniture hores absolutely can be service animals, only dog and miniture horses can be. They are excellent seeing eye animals and live longer (up to 35 years compared to a large breed dog around 12) but they arent as protected as dogs since they arent as compact as they are. Miniture horses can be denied due to space constraints .


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## BigRedDriver (Nov 28, 2018)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> I believe the only way to get rid of animals is that every driver that sees a tiny bit of hair/contamination/etc charge them the cleaning fee. This way gradually they give up booking uber and lyft.
> I extremely hate to take animals in my cars. They are dirty and they stink af. Plz find a solution!


For who? I've never had a problem with an animal riding in my car. Sounds as if you do. But that's you, not everyone.


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

BigRedDriver said:


> For who? I've never had a problem with an animal riding in my car. Sounds as if you do. But that's you, not everyone.


i have problem. I can't tolerate the contamination and stink from animals. Plus dogs are against my religion as well. 
I know many drivers have no problem with them. But many drivers have problem. Can uber sort the drivers that are ok with animals, and send those trips only to them? Don't think so ...


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> i have problem. I can't tolerate the contamination and stink from animals. Plus dogs are against my religion as well.
> I know many drivers have no problem with them. But many drivers have problem. Can uber sort the drivers that are ok with animals, and send those trips only to them? Don't think so ...


I'm calling BS to that.


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## BigRedDriver (Nov 28, 2018)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> i have problem. I can't tolerate the contamination and stink from animals. Plus dogs are against my religion as well.
> I know many drivers have no problem with them. But many drivers have problem. Can uber sort the drivers that are ok with animals, and send those trips only to them? Don't think so ...


Then don't take them.

I really don't care.


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

There was a thread about 6 months ago, I did some research on it as did some others.

Bottom line: ICs have no protection under the ADA. No protection for you or animals in your car, service or not. Complaints of driver having an animal leads to quick deactivation. The courts don't care if you are allergic, emotionally in need of support, have seizures, or whatever.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> Miniture hores absolutely can be service animals, only dog and miniture horses can be. They are excellent seeing eye animals and live longer (up to 35 years compared to a large breed dog around 12) but they arent as protected as dogs since they arent as compact as they are. Miniture horses can be denied due to space constraints .


from the ADA website

Beginning on March 15, 2011, only dogs are recognized as service animals under titles II and III of the ADA


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

oldfart said:


> No vest or certificate is needed, but only dogs can be service animals according to the ADA. (No pigs or little horses)
> 
> Also an emotional support dog is not a service dog
> 
> ...


ADA DOES allow miniature horses.



Mista T said:


> There was a thread about 6 months ago, I did some research on it as did some others.
> 
> Bottom line: ICs have no protection under the ADA. No protection for you or animals in your car, service or not. Complaints of driver having an animal leads to quick deactivation. The courts don't care if you are allergic, emotionally in need of support, have seizures, or whatever.


Not true, and, as has previously been mentioned, there ARE drivers that have service animals that ride with them. Also, some HAVE had riders complain, but, once the fact is explained to U/L that it is a legit service animal for a disability and that it doesn't take up room that is supposed to be available for riders, U/L remove the complaint and any downrate for it.



oldfart said:


> from the ADA website
> 
> Beginning on March 15, 2011, only dogs are recognized as service animals under titles II and III of the ADA


But under the regulations they are included. Also in later caselaw.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> ADA DOES allow miniature horses.
> 
> Not true, and, as has previously been mentioned, there ARE drivers that have service animals that ride with them. Also, some HAVE had riders complain, but, once the fact is explained to U/L that it is a legit service animal for a disability and that it doesn't take up room that is supposed to be available for riders, U/L remove the complaint and any downrate for it.
> 
> But under the regulations they are included. Also in later caselaw.


Citations please


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Not true, and, as has previously been mentioned, there ARE drivers that have service animals that ride with them.


There was a driver here in town, one of the people who came to our meet ups. He was booted for driving with a svc animal. He is gone now, his attempts to remain active fell on deaf corporate ears. This prompted my research, whereby I found an article indicating that courts have decided that as an independent contractor, we do not have the same ADA rights and protections as customers. Not sure why, has to do with employment status tho.


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## NOXDriver (Aug 12, 2018)

Merc7186 said:


> New York state carefully spells out which type of dogs are considered for service animals. Pit Bulls, although great animals, are not considered a service animal here.
> 
> Also, thankfully NY does not consider Emotional Support animals as a service animal...thank god.


Federal Supremacy means that NY has no say in what is breeds are service animals. So while you can't in trouble at the State level, Federally you are still in jeopardy.

So yes, a pitt bull is a service animal in NY. PERIOD.



Mista T said:


> There was a driver here in town, one of the people who came to our meet ups. He was booted for driving with a svc animal. He is gone now, his attempts to remain active fell on deaf corporate ears. This prompted my research, whereby I found an article indicating that courts have decided that as an independent contractor, we do not have the same ADA rights and protections as customers. Not sure why, has to do with employment status tho.


I call BS. What court cases?

ADA covers your rights, that doesn't change with IC or employee status.


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## kcdrvr15 (Jan 10, 2017)

wow, 
another ada thread...

3 years driving, only 1 real service dog, and at least half dozen fakes...


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Merc7186 said:


> New York state carefully spells out which type of dogs are considered for service animals. Pit Bulls, although great animals, are not considered a service animal here.
> 
> Also, thankfully NY does not consider Emotional Support animals as a service animal...thank god.


States can't override the federal law, which doesn't limit breeds. So I'm not sure where you're coming from on that.



oldfart said:


> No vest or certificate is needed, but only dogs can be service animals according to the ADA. (No pigs or little horses)
> 
> Also an emotional support dog is not a service dog
> 
> ...


Miniature horses are covered also by the ADA. And most are smaller than a Great Dane btw. So although you can refuse them if they won't fit, most will.


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## Gulfstream Echo Niner (Dec 24, 2018)

I was wondering if a mini horse would fit in my prii.
So I googled the question.
Results: House in Prius


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Mista T said:


> courts have decided that as an independent contractor, we do not have the same ADA rights and protections as customers.


It's because ADA specifically applies to customers and public accommodation. Uber drivers aren't customers.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

oldfart said:


> Citations please


https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

*In addition to the provisions about service dogs, the Department's revised ADA regulations have a new, separate provision about miniature horses that have been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities.* (Miniature horses generally range in height from 24 inches to 34 inches measured to the shoulders and generally weigh between 70 and 100 pounds.) Entities covered by the ADA must modify their policies to permit miniature horses where reasonable. The regulations set out four assessment factors to assist entities in determining whether miniature horses can be accommodated in their facility. The assessment factors are (1) whether the miniature horse is housebroken; (2) whether the miniature horse is under the owner's control; (3) whether the facility can accommodate the miniature horse's type, size, and weight; and (4) whether the miniature horse's presence will not compromise legitimate safety requirements necessary for safe operation of the facility.



Fuzzyelvis said:


> States can't override the federal law, which doesn't limit breeds. So I'm not sure where you're coming from on that.
> 
> Miniature horses are covered also by the ADA. And most are smaller than a Great Dane btw. So although you can refuse them if they won't fit, most will.


The difference is a great Dane, and dogs in general, can curl up to be much smaller then their standing height. A horse cannot do that.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Christinebitg said:


> It's because ADA specifically applies to customers and public accommodation. Uber drivers aren't customers.


ADA also covers employment. While Uber says drivers aren't employees (although that is changing in many states, especially since the upfront pricing mess), the ADA does cover ICs/subcontractors.



Mista T said:


> There was a driver here in town, one of the people who came to our meet ups. He was booted for driving with a svc animal. He is gone now, his attempts to remain active fell on deaf corporate ears. This prompted my research, whereby I found an article indicating that courts have decided that as an independent contractor, we do not have the same ADA rights and protections as customers. Not sure why, has to do with employment status tho.


Tell him to try again...
www.winston.com/en/thought-leadership/fifth-circuit-holds-that-independent-contractors-can-sue-under.html#


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
> 
> *In addition to the provisions about service dogs, the Department's revised ADA regulations have a new, separate provision about miniature horses that have been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities.* (Miniature horses generally range in height from 24 inches to 34 inches measured to the shoulders and generally weigh between 70 and 100 pounds.) Entities covered by the ADA must modify their policies to permit miniature horses where reasonable. The regulations set out four assessment factors to assist entities in determining whether miniature horses can be accommodated in their facility. The assessment factors are (1) whether the miniature horse is housebroken; (2) whether the miniature horse is under the owner's control; (3) whether the facility can accommodate the miniature horse's type, size, and weight; and (4) whether the miniature horse's presence will not compromise legitimate safety requirements necessary for safe operation of the facility.
> 
> The difference is a great Dane, and dogs in general, can curl up to be much smaller then their standing height. A horse cannot do that.


---------
IMO -- any owner that wishes to take a miniature horse in a sedan is an idiot. I have owned "mini's" and they do not belong in a car. Since they weigh around 150 lbs, if they freak inside a car, no one is safe. Also, all cats should be inside a cat carrier -- plastic, not cardboard. You have a freaked out cat loose in a car and you will think that you are in the presence of a devil from hell.



Alexxx_Uber said:


> i have problem. I can't tolerate the contamination and stink from animals. Plus dogs are against my religion as well.
> I know many drivers have no problem with them. But many drivers have problem. Can uber sort the drivers that are ok with animals, and send those trips only to them? Don't think so ...


-------------------------
Dogs are against your religion ??? Their existence or being in the same circle where you live. ??
Contamination and stink ??? You would be appalled to know what falls off of every human body every day and what they leave behind in your car. Get a microscope and take a look.
In America, certain rules must apply to specific types of jobs. Accepting service animals is one rule that goes along with being a ride share driver. Accept it or find another line of work. Also, being nasty to a paxs with a dog because YOU hate dogs is the same as refusing to allow them in the car. Frowned on by the higher powers. I remember when people in a wheel chair were considered second class citizens. 
I don't want to pay taxes but Uncle Sam tells me that I am not special and must follow the rules.
Darn !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

KK2929 said:


> ---------
> IMO -- any owner that wishes to take a miniature horse in a sedan is an idiot. I have owned "mini's" and they do not belong in a car. Since they weigh around 150 lbs, if they freak inside a car, no one is safe. Also, all cats should be inside a cat carrier -- plastic, not cardboard. You have a freaked out cat loose in a car and you will think that you are in the presence of a devil from hell.
> 
> -------------------------
> ...


Calm down ... take a breath ... and stop judging people who might be different than you. 
Why do you make things radical? When and where did I said existence of dogs are against my beliefs? 
Indeed I love all animals, including dogs. We are just forbidden to touch dogs. We can't do prayers if we touch a dog, unless we take our especial shower. Therefore, if I there is a dog in my car and it touches me, I have to go home and take shower. This interrupts my drivings and earnings. 
In addition, some animals really stink. Another day, the pax had a cat in basket. It was small, but the stink was so bad. I didn't say anything and completed the ride. But I had hard time breathing during that whole trip. Same story with dogs. I can't tolerate the stink. FYI, I had a couple pax that stink really bad. I kicked out one of them and canceled. 
Anyways, as you suggested, maybe this is not the right gig for me. Due to my religion and belief, I should not work for rideshare. 
Merry Christmas.


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> Calm down ... take a breath ... and stop judging people who might be different than you.
> Why do you make things radical? When and where did I said existence of dogs are against my beliefs?
> Indeed I love all animals, including dogs. We are just forbidden to touch dogs. We can't do prayers if we touch a dog, unless we take our especial shower. Therefore, if I there is a dog in my car and it touches me, I have to go home and take shower. This interrupts my drivings and earnings.
> In addition, some animals really stink. Another day, the pax had a cat in basket. It was small, but the stink was so bad. I didn't say anything and completed the ride. But I had hard time breathing during that whole trip. Same story with dogs. I can't tolerate the stink. FYI, I had a couple pax that stink really bad. I kicked out one of them and canceled.
> ...


I don't think he was being radical so much as taking you statement literal. The cat you didn't have to take, most cats spray and piss when they are transported, it smells horrendous. I will never, ever let someone take a cat in my car. If people didn't take advantage of the service animal laws you wouldn't have to worry, it the non-service dogs and the people who take advantage of the law that puts you in an unfortunate position.

in 5k plus rides I've had 1 legit service dog and she laid on the back seat floor the entire trip. If I didn't see it get in I'd have never known it was there.


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

Boca Ratman said:


> I don't think he was being radical so much as taking you statement literal. The cat you didn't have to take, most cats spray and piss when they are transported, it smells horrendous. I will never, ever let someone take a cat in my car. If people didn't take advantage of the service animal laws you wouldn't have to worry, it the non-service dogs and the people who take advantage of the law that puts you in an unfortunate position.
> 
> in 5k plus rides I've had 1 legit service dog and she laid on the back seat floor the entire trip. If I didn't see it get in I'd have never known it was there.


Yeah I taught my lesson for cats. It's a big NO.
I haven't taken a dog so far ... I didn't know that the dogs don't stink, I was thinking the same as cats indeed. 
If the dog sits on the floor, I definitely have no issue, if there is no stink. But I definitely don't allow dogs to sit on the back seats. 
I need to wait and see until my first pax with dog.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

KK2929 said:


> ---------
> IMO -- any owner that wishes to take a miniature horse in a sedan is an idiot. I have owned "mini's" and they do not belong in a car. Since they weigh around 150 lbs, if they freak inside a car, no one is safe. Also, all cats should be inside a cat carrier -- plastic, not cardboard. You have a freaked out cat loose in a car and you will think that you are in the presence of a devil from hell.
> 
> -------------------------
> ...


Miniture horses can be denied for inability to accomedate due to space.


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> Calm down ... take a breath ... and stop judging people who might be different than you.
> Why do you make things radical? When and where did I said existence of dogs are against my beliefs?
> Indeed I love all animals, including dogs. We are just forbidden to touch dogs. We can't do prayers if we touch a dog, unless we take our especial shower. Therefore, if I there is a dog in my car and it touches me, I have to go home and take shower. This interrupts my drivings and earnings.
> In addition, some animals really stink. Another day, the pax had a cat in basket. It was small, but the stink was so bad. I didn't say anything and completed the ride. But I had hard time breathing during that whole trip. Same story with dogs. I can't tolerate the stink. FYI, I had a couple pax that stink really bad. I kicked out one of them and canceled.
> ...


------------------------
Calm down ???? Where in that statement does it show unusual emotion.
You stated, " dogs are against my religion as well." Then you state, " existence of dogs are against my beliefs"
Therefore, you see my confusion. Also, I do not judge anyone, except you seem to be overly sensitive, IMO. 
I have over 5,100 rides and have, maybe, had 10 dogs. The odds of you getting a canine in your car are pretty remote.
Handle the situation when it appears.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> Indeed I love all animals, including dogs. We are just forbidden to touch dogs.


So then. Now your story is that you love dogs but are forbidden to touch them.

Earlier you said that you hate the contamination and stink from animals.

I get it. You're just making this stuff as you go along.


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Uber's Guber said:


> Anyone heard from Pawtism? He hasn't posted in months.


I've had some medical issues hit me rather suddenly, and am just now starting to get to feeling better and getting caught up again. I'll be hit or miss for a while, but will try to be around more often.


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## kcdrvr15 (Jan 10, 2017)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> It's sad I have to commit a sin by allowing dogs in my car in order to be able to earn money to feed my family


It's sadder that some people think it's a sin....


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> Excellent post, thanks for the link.
> 
> In particular, people here may want to pay attention to a couple of those items:
> 
> ...


On top of a possible lawsuit, in many/most states, it's a misdemeanor crime to refuse a service dog, and if the judgement on your background check isn't bad enough, the misdemeanor probably will be.



Merc7186 said:


> New York state carefully spells out which type of dogs are considered for service animals. Pit Bulls, although great animals, are not considered a service animal here.


This is actually incorrect, service dogs are specifically exempted from any sort of breed ban (breed bans are stupid anyway, it's racism for dogs, if you really need to know why, I suggest you do some research, anyone who works with dogs regularly can probably explain why, I don't feel like getting into it). As a matter of law though, a service dog can be any breed, and pit bulls are actually the second best breed when it comes to temperament testing (and there are several pit bull only service dog programs). So, yes, in NY (and every other state) pit bulls can be (and are) service dogs.



SuzeCB said:


> Too bad for NY thst they don't get to pick and choose the breed.
> 
> The federal law supercedes the state one. Pits, if of the correct demeanor and properly trained for tasks, cannot be denied.


^^^^^ This (this is correct).


----------



## kcdrvr15 (Jan 10, 2017)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> i have problem. I can't tolerate the contamination and stink from animals. Plus dogs are against my religion as well.
> I know many drivers have no problem with them. But many drivers have problem. Can uber sort the drivers that are ok with animals, and send those trips only to them? Don't think so ...


You need to find another job. Your choosing to sin to get $, and you believe that dogs stink and contaminate your car. what is wrong with this situation ?

Two "issues" that are diametrically opposite from each other, and your the one choosing to participate in both activities... and then complain about it :/


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

oldfart said:


> No vest or certificate is needed, but only dogs can be service animals according to the ADA. (No pigs or little horses)


Mini horses actually can be (and are) service animals (I admit they worded it funny in the ADA, but if you keep reading, you'll find they made an exception for mini horses, but have a lot more restrictions than most service animals, mostly to do with space). For that exact same reason though (space), most uber/lyfts will never have to worry about a mini horse (you can decline due to space reasons). They are also way rarer than most service dogs (which are already a bit rare). Even those who regularly work with the disabled and come across way more service animals than most people do, rarely encounter a mini horse (I've personally never seen one in person myself, and I'm often around many service dogs).



oldfart said:


> Citations please


https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Most people make the mistake of reading up to the point of what they want to see, read all the way to the end, you'll see it. I admit they did a poor job of wording it and kind of hid it in there, but it's pretty clear if you read all the way through.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Pawtism said:


> I'll be hit or miss for a while, but will try to be around more often.


..........welcome back; hope that you continue to feel better.......................


----------



## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> I believe the only way to get rid of animals is that every driver that sees a tiny bit of hair/contamination/etc charge them the cleaning fee. This way gradually they give up booking uber and lyft.
> I extremely hate to take animals in my cars. They are dirty and they stink af. Plz find a solution!


This is exactly why uber's policy is that even for waste they aren't charged for the first couple times (which even I think they should be if it's actual waste). It's because they know that some people are poor excuses for human beings and will sometimes fake a "mess" and then try to charge. It's sad that people are that horrible, but unfortunately they sometimes are (as we've seen with some replies to these types of threads).



Mista T said:


> There was a driver here in town, one of the people who came to our meet ups. He was booted for driving with a svc animal. He is gone now, his attempts to remain active fell on deaf corporate ears. This prompted my research, whereby I found an article indicating that courts have decided that as an independent contractor, we do not have the same ADA rights and protections as customers. Not sure why, has to do with employment status tho.


At least in part, this is true. Although there is likely more to this story (and either he didn't understand the law, or just decided not to fight it). Here is the break down. We are not employees (of Uber/Lyft). If we were employees (of Uber/Lyft), instead of just bringing my dog, I'd have to request a "reasonable accommodation" and show them something (usually a dr.'s note) stating that I had a disability and needed my service dog (same kind of thing I'd have to show housing for an apt).

However, as Independent contractors, we own our own business (and are employees of our own company). Therefore I granted myself a reasonable accommodation to take my service dog with me (if I wanted to be super anal, technically I should get a note to put in my own "file", but whatever, no one is going to actually do that lol). As long as I can still meet the minimum number of seats, uber/lyft really can't say anything about my service dog (but they also don't have to adjust for complaints, etc either).

As for your friend, it's hard to say what actually happened there. Maybe he got too many complaints and/or ratings got too low. Maybe they called him on it and he didn't have a disability (or his dog was only an ESA) so he couldn't argue them on it. Maybe he neglected to consult an attorney and they just railroaded him. Who knows... People do drive with their service animals though.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

And there is this, for California,...

*Penal Code - PEN*
*PART 1. OF CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS [25 - 680]*
_ ( Part 1 enacted 1872. )_ 
*TITLE 9. OF CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON INVOLVING SEXUAL ASSAULT, AND CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC DECENCY AND GOOD MORALS [261 - 368.5]*
_ ( Heading of Title 9 amended by Stats. 1982, Ch. 1111, Sec. 2. )_

*CHAPTER 12. Other Injuries to Persons [346 - 367g]*
_ ( Chapter 12 enacted 1872. )_

*365.7. *
(a) Any person who knowingly and fraudulently represents himself or herself, through verbal or written notice, to be the owner or trainer of any canine licensed as, to be qualified as, or identified as, a guide, signal, or service dog, as defined in subdivisions (d), (e), and (f) of Section 365.5 and paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) of Section 54.1 of the Civil Code, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.

(b) As used in this section, "owner" means any person who owns a guide, signal, or service dog, or who is authorized by the owner to use the guide, signal, or service dog.

_(Added by Stats. 1994, Ch. 1257, Sec. 12. Effective January 1, 1995.)

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=365.7.
._


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

kcdrvr15 said:


> It's sadder that some people think it's a sin....


I call for first amendment


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## Gulfstream Echo Niner (Dec 24, 2018)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> I call for first amendment


I call for the 18th amendment !!


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

kcdrvr15 said:


> It's sadder that some people think it's a sin....


---------------------------

In the past dogs were allowed to breed and roam freely through out the area. They scavenged for food and killed livestock when hungry. They were considered filthy, evil and scavengers. These feeling are still prominent in some areas, rural Mexico for one.
Some religions labeled certain species as filthy and evil, possibly a messenger of the devil. Who knows ??
These ideas are incorporated into the local beliefs by the leaders and are rarely questioned by anyone. 
In America, most consider the canine part of the family and that life with a dog is the only way to live. 
I do not judge those that do not agree. As I said earlier, I have 5400 + trips and have had maybe 15 dogs. I do not believe this to be a huge problem but if it is -- find another line of work. The law states that service dogs must not be refused. That is not going to change. 
LMO



Gulfstream Echo Niner said:


> I call for the 18th amendment !!


------------
25th amendment took care of that one.



Alexxx_Uber said:


> I call for first amendment


---------------------------
I do not think that anyone is questioning your right of religion. 
However, you choose to do ride share but expect to be exempt from some laws. The dog owners have rights, also. Yes, some dog owners take advantage of the situation but that is human nature, unfortunately.
The situation will come up so rarely, I would not worry about it. You can always not stop but do not give the dog as the reason, if asked. No one but you, knows the true reason. Leave it at that.


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> ..........welcome back; hope that you continue to feel better.......................


Thank you! 



Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> And there is this, for California,...
> 
> *Penal Code - PEN*
> *PART 1. OF CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS [25 - 680]*
> ...


That is correct, as the the section right before it...

*365.6. *
(a) Any person who, with no legal justification, intentionally interferes with the use of a guide, signal, or service dog or mobility aid by harassing or obstructing the guide, signal, or service dog or mobility aid user or his or her guide, signal, or service dog, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding six months, or by a fine of not less than one thousand five hundred dollars ($1,500) nor more than two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or both that fine and imprisonment.

(b) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:

(1) "Mobility aid" means any device enabling a person with a disability, as defined in subdivision (b) of Section 54 of the Civil Code, to travel independently, including, but not limited to, a guide, signal, or service dog, as defined in Section 54.1 of the Civil Code, a wheelchair, walker or white cane.

(2) "Guide, signal, or service dog" means any dog trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including, but not limited to, guiding individuals with impaired vision, alerting individuals with impaired hearing to intruders or sounds, pulling a wheelchair, or fetching dropped items.

(c) Nothing in this section is intended to affect any civil remedies available for a violation of this section.

_(Amended by Stats. 2004, Ch. 322, Sec. 1. Effective January 1, 2005.)_

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=365.6.&lawCode=PEN

Translated (very loosely), in Cali, these mean that if you fake a service dog, you commit a misdemeanor crime with a penalty of up to 6 months in jail and/or a $1,000 fine. Likewise, if you refuse a service dog, you commit a misdemeanor crime with a penalty of up to 6 months in jail, and/or a fine between $1,500 and $2,500.

So... How sure are you that they are a fake? Because really, you're betting a lot on it. If you're sure they are (you have them on video saying it's for emotional support and the thing is yapping and jumping all over the place on the video), great, call the cops and press charges. Just know that if you do get it wrong, it's going to go very badly for you and your deactivation will be the least of your problems.

Just so I'm clear, I despise the fakers, probably more than most of you. Not only were they a hassle for me when I was driving, but they are an actual threat to my highly trained dog (and ultimately to my freedom and independence). However, if you're going to go down that road, you've got to be sure...



KK2929 said:


> ---------------------------
> 
> In the past dogs were allowed to breed and roam freely through out the area. They scavenged for food and killed livestock when hungry. They were considered filthy, evil and scavengers. These feeling are still prominent in some areas, rural Mexico for one.
> Some religions labeled certain species as filthy and evil, possibly a messenger of the devil. Who knows ??
> ...


Coattail-ling onto your point, I'd also remind people that, not that long ago, many were taught to believe that anyone of a different racial background was somehow inferior, subhuman, and it was a common belief. Very recently many believed that if you had a different sexual orientation, you were simply evil. Imagine what ignorance we still have today that we may shed ourselves of in the near future. Beliefs are a constantly evolving thing.


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

Gulfstream Echo Niner said:


> I call for the 18th amendment !!


Shake my head



Pawtism said:


> This is exactly why uber's policy is that even for waste they aren't charged for the first couple times (which even I think they should be if it's actual waste). It's because they know that some people are poor excuses for human beings and will sometimes fake a "mess" and then try to charge. It's sad that people are that horrible, but unfortunately they sometimes are (as we've seen with some replies to these types of threads).
> 
> You understand that I suggested that method only for the pax who abuse ADA laws. Yeah? Smh
> 
> ...


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Pawtism said:


> Just so I'm clear, I despise the fakers, probably more than most of you. Not only were they a hassle for me when I was driving, but they are an actual threat to my *very expensively and* highly trained dog (and ultimately to my freedom and independence). However, if you're going to go down that road, you've got to be sure...


FIFY


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Pawtism said:


> Just so I'm clear, I despise the fakers, probably more than most of you. Not only were they a hassle for me when I was driving, but they are an actual threat to my highly trained dog (and ultimately to my freedom and independence).


Is a fake service dog more of a threat to a real service dog than a pet dog with no pretension of being a service dog is? The argument, often used, that fake service dogs are a threat to real service dogs, doesn't seem to make much sense to me unless you refuse to take your service dog any place where pets could be found.


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Alexxx_Uber (sorry I had to tag you this way but you merged your reply into my quote so I couldn't reply directly),

That's part of the problem with these threads. Typically what most people are upset about is the fakers. Instead of simply ranting about them and/or asking what can be done about them (the 2 questions, behaviors, etc), they tend to try to attack the ADA law itself. Then everything becomes about all of them (as you put it "the animals"), without separating out the legitimate ones verses the fakers. So no, you didn't make it clear that you were only talking about those who abuse it or the fakers. In fact, you said...



Alexxx_Uber said:


> I believe the only way to get rid of animals is that every driver that sees a tiny bit of hair/contamination/etc charge them the cleaning fee. This way gradually they give up booking uber and lyft.
> I extremely hate to take animals in my cars. They are dirty and they stink af. Plz find a solution!


They did find a solution (the ADA). Service dogs have to be taken but all others don't. Sadly some people of very low moral character fake a disability and claim to have a service dog when they do not. If that is what bothers you (the abusers), then you should probably keep your argument focused on them and not "the animals".


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## ecarpio (Apr 20, 2017)

Cancel, drive away!


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Trafficat said:


> Is a fake service dog more of a threat to a real service dog than a pet dog with no pretension of being a service dog is? The argument, often used, that fake service dogs are a threat to real service dogs, doesn't seem to make much sense to me unless you refuse to take your service dog any place where pets could be found.


I am cautious about where I take my service dog. It's quite rare that I'm ever anywhere that "pets" would be. I'm also a lot more on guard when I'm somewhere that I know pets are (which is rare). It's "pets" in a place they shouldn't be that is a problem for me (the grocery store, which is where we've had most of our close calls, for example). The medical center is probably the second highest incident place. Neither of these places should have "pets", but we've encountered (and had close calls) with fake service dogs in both.

The reason it's such a threat is not only the actual physical attack (her getting injured), but the chance of her having to be washed out because she develops a fear and can't do her job anymore. It's a real concern as it's happened to many handlers after an attack. Service dogs are trained with other service dogs, and that's why they basically ignore each other, they've been taught there is no threat or fear there. After an attack, they see another dog and either want to flee, or become protective/aggressive. Either one of these is a problem and can cause them to wash out.



ecarpio said:


> Cancel, drive away!


Report, watch you get deactivated, file complaint with ADA, subpoena your info from Uber/Lyft, press state level Misdemeanor charges, then have the DOJ slap you with a civil rights violation lawsuit... Yeah, sounds like a good plan..

Edit: I forgot to add collect $25.00 for getting you deactivated, plus whatever the DOJ settles for (and you'll wind up settling because they all do, it's way cheaper than what the fines actually are)


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

Pawtism said:


> Alexxx_Uber (sorry I had to tag you this way but you merged your reply into my quote so I couldn't reply directly),
> 
> That's part of the problem with these threads. Typically what most people are upset about is the fakers. Instead of simply ranting about them and/or asking what can be done about them (the 2 questions, behaviors, etc), they tend to try to attack the ADA law itself. Then everything becomes about all of them (as you put it "the animals"), without separating out the legitimate ones verses the fakers. So no, you didn't make it clear that you were only talking about those who abuse it or the fakers. In fact, you said...
> 
> They did find a solution (the ADA). Service dogs have to be taken but all others don't. Sadly some people of very low moral character fake a disability and claim to have a service dog when they do not. If that is what bothers you (the abusers), then you should probably keep your argument focused on them and not "the animals".


Sir, please allow me to elaborate on this. As many of drivers have quoted in this website, there are passengers who are abusing the ADA laws and tend to bring their non service animals into our properties. For example they claim a yorkie dog as a service animal and when drivers ask them what service your dog provides, they say emotional. (First fraudulent act)
On the other hand if you report the matter to UberLyft, ot they report it, you will be deactivated by Uber/Lyft (second fraudulent act)
Could you please kindly let us know what is the solution? 
As I mentioned above, two groups are making the fraudulent actions. Why should the driver pay the penalties? 
Me as a driver, when see there is no legal possible move, surely won't stand naive, and will play the game dirty, as they started to play dirty. What should I do? Here it is: I will calim significant mess after each of those non-service animals enter my car. Is this a dirty move? I don't really give a rat ass. I only seek my revenge and punishment of those who are abusing my property.
Period.


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> Sir, please allow me to elaborate on this. As many of drivers have quoted in this website, there are passengers who are abusing the ADA laws and tend to bring their non service animals into our properties. For example they claim a yorkie dog as a service animal and when drivers ask them what service your dog provides, they say emotional. (First fraudulent act)
> On the other hand if you report the matter to UberLyft, ot they report it, you will be deactivated by Uber/Lyft (second fraudulent act)
> Could you please kindly let us know what is the solution?
> As I mentioned above, two groups are making the fraudulent actions. Why should the driver pay the penalties?
> ...


The best way to defend against the fakers (the people saying it's a service dog when it isn't), is to ask them the 2 questions you're allowed to ask (and the only 2 questions you can ask). 1. Is this a service dog required for a disability? This is easy for them to lie to. 2. What work or tasks is it trained to perform? This is the "gotcha" one. Most fakers are either going to say "emotional support" or "you can't ask me that!" (you can lol). Make sure you are getting their responses on your dash cam. You can also tell by the behavior, if it's all out of control, barking, etc, that is a valid reason to refuse (make sure to get this behavior on the cam too).

Then, if you refuse them and cancel, immediately call into Uber/Lyft (this is critical, they tend to believe whoever calls in first). Let them know it was a fake, and that you have the evidence ("they said it was an emotional support animal" or "it was barking and lunging") on your dash cam (they probably won't ask to see it yet, and that's ok, just make sure they know you have it). That way, if they do call in and complain, Uber/Lyft is already aware of it, and at that time they may ask for your side again (and the footage, when you send them your side of it anyway, insist they look at the footage at that point). That's how you protect yourself against most the fakes.

Now, that being said, if they do give a good answer to the second question ("seizure alert" is a common one for the few that have done some research), and the dog is behaving, you'll have to take it (maybe it's fake, maybe it's real, there really is no way to tell). If it's behaving though, it's no real problem for you anyway then (and not taking it could be a real problem for you). Not all disabled people look disabled. Other than I walk a bit funny (because of some mobility issues), you probably couldn't tell I was disabled just by looking at me. However, my dog is, indeed, a legit service dog.

The problem with your "revenge" is that it doesn't hurt them at all anyway. Uber may pay you if there is a legitimate mess (or if you fake one, I suppose). But the pax doesn't get charged. If you claim it often enough, they'll eventually stop accepting cleaning fee claims from you (don't believe me, do a search on this forum, it's happened to a few), then when there is a legitimate mess, you may not be able to claim it. Furthermore, how does you faking something (especially something you're gaining financial benefit from), make you any better than them (it actually kind of makes you a bit worse, they are just paxholes, but you're actually stealing). And how bad would you feel if one of the people you thought was faking was actually legit. The disabled have a hard enough time with their lives, they don't need people going out of their way to make it harder, you know?

Follow the advice I've listed here, and you can avoid most of the fakes (and feel good about actually shutting them down in a way that actually affects them, instead of just robbing Uber, not that I personally care that much, as Uber robs us anyway). You'll also get to feel good about helping those who actually need it (without putting your car at risk).


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Pawtism said:


> The best way to defend against the fakers (the people saying it's a service dog when it isn't), is to ask them the 2 questions you're allowed to ask (and the only 2 questions you can ask). 1. Is this a service dog required for a disability? This is easy for them to lie to. 2. What work or tasks is it trained to perform? This is the "gotcha" one. Most fakers are either going to say "emotional support" or "you can't ask me that!" (you can lol). Make sure you are getting their responses on your dash cam. You can also tell by the behavior, if it's all out of control, barking, etc, that is a valid reason to refuse (make sure to get this behavior on the cam too).
> 
> Then, if you refuse them and cancel, immediately call into Uber/Lyft (this is critical, they tend to believe whoever calls in first). Let them know it was a fake, and that you have the evidence ("they said it was an emotional support animal" or "it was barking and lunging") on your dash cam (they probably won't ask to see it yet, and that's ok, just make sure they know you have it). That way, if they do call in and complain, Uber/Lyft is already aware of it, and at that time they may ask for your side again (and the footage, when you send them your side of it anyway, insist they look at the footage at that point). That's how you protect yourself against most the fakes.
> 
> ...


There is another really good way to figure out if the dog is a legitimate service animal or not.

There are a lot of people who have very well-behaved animals. If they know the answers to the two questions, the dog's Behavior overall may not give it away as a fake if it is indeed a fake. What will give it away is when the passenger opens the door to the car. If the dog jumps into the car without first having been instructed to, and that instruction could be verbal or a gesture, so you will have to pay attention, and then lay down on the floor of the car, without going up on the seat at all, no matter how sweet and gentle and docile the dog is, it's not a service animal.

Service animals have to pass a test for Behavior before any of their tasks can be considered. Part of that is not getting into cars until told to, and not going up on the seats of cars unless told to. Every other dog that I have ever known loves to go for rides in the car, gets very excited about the prospect, and will jump into the car as soon as the door is open, and up on the seat as soon as it is able so that it can stick its nose up in the air and look out the window.

A car ride is commonplace and negligible for a service animal. Additionally, it will pay almost no attention to you whatsoever. Maybe a glance and a quick sniff, and that will be it. A true service animal will probably be the best passenger you will have all year. Even better than their handlers, except the dogs are unable to tip.


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> Could you please kindly let us know what is the solution?


Because many of these types of laws far too often go to far the other way, you are stuck. Further, the companies know this and also know that enforcement of these kinds of laws favours the "protected". As soon as the "protected" opens the mouth, the accused is presumed guilty even when proved innocent.

Despite the above, Our Moderator who uses a service animal, Pawtism, provides some sound advice that is worthy of your attention as well as the attention of all who drive at any level of Uber or Lyft. I learned a few things to-day from reading his post. I am glad that he is back mostly just to have him back among us, but, as a user of service animals, he also has an important contribution to make to these Boards.



Pawtism said:


> You can also tell by the behavior, if it's all out of control, barking, etc, that is a valid reason to refuse (make sure to get this behavior on the cam too).


Thank you for this. I was not aware that you could refuse based on this. The advice about the dashboard camera is sound, as, of course, the person with the fake service animal will deny that the animal was misbehaving. I learned something to-day.



Pawtism said:


> Now, that being said, if they do give a good answer to the second question ("seizure alert" is a common one for the few that have done some research), and the dog is behaving, you'll have to take it (maybe it's fake, maybe it's real, there really is no way to tell). If it's behaving though, it's no real problem for you anyway then (and not taking it could be a real problem for you). Not all disabled people look disabled. Other than I walk a bit funny (because of some mobility issues), you probably couldn't tell I was disabled just by looking at me. However, my dog is, indeed, a legit service dog.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Read and pay heed^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



Pawtism said:


> Follow the advice I've listed here, and you can avoid most of the fakes (and feel good about actually shutting them down in a way that actually affects them). You'll also get to feel good about helping those who actually need it (without putting your car at risk).


Thank you for the tips. Those who drive will do well to read and pay heed.



SuzeCB said:


> What will give it away is when the passenger opens the door to the car. If the dog jumps into the car without first having been instructed to, and that instruction could be verbal or a gesture, so you will have to pay attention, and then lay down on the floor of the car, without going up on the seat at all,


This is correct. Before this, my last two cabs had partitions. They were constructed and sat in a way that would have made it uncomfortable for the dog to lie on the floor. When I picked up people who had service dogs, I used to tell them to tell the dog to get onto the seat. If the dog shed, at least the vinyl covered seats allowed a Dustbuster™ to make short work of the hair.



SuzeCB said:


> A true service animal will probably be the best passenger you will have all year. Even better than their handlers, except the dogs are unable to tip.


----------



## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> There is another really good way to figure out if the dog is a legitimate service animal or not.
> 
> There are a lot of people who have very well-behaved animals. If they know the answers to the two questions, the dog's Behavior overall may not give it away as a fake if it is indeed a fake. What will give it away is when the passenger opens the door to the car. If the dog jumps into the car without first having been instructed to, and that instruction could be verbal or a gesture, so you will have to pay attention, and then lay down on the floor of the car, without going up on the seat at all, no matter how sweet and gentle and docile the dog is, it's not a service animal.
> 
> ...


This is a good idea too (thanks, I hadn't thought of it). It's a good "red flag test" anyway. The exam she's referring to is called the Public Access Test. It's a step beyond what some of the fakers will cite, the Canine Good Citizen test (service dogs do usually go through this too, but it's only a test to see if they are even ready to move on to the public access stuff). Here's some info about the Public Access Test (you'll note that both entering and exiting the vehicle, the service dog is expected to wait for a cue or command before proceeding, just as Suze suggests). This video is a fairly basic public access test (the organization I went through was a bit stricter, but I put this one because this is pretty much the lowest of the expectations, so if they don't meet even this, they aren't ready for public access yet). For this test, they do go onto the seat (as it's her car, my dog goes on my seat in my own car too, as I have a dog grade seat protector), but we do train for cabs (and thus ubers) to go onto the floor (at least most programs teach that), but it's not part of the access test.








Another Uber Driver said:


> Because many of these types of laws far too often go to far the other way, you are stuck. Further, the companies know this and also know that enforcement of these kinds of laws favours the "protected". As soon as the "protected" opens the mouth, the accused is presumed guilty even when proved innocent.
> 
> Despite the above, Our Moderator who uses a service animal, Pawtism, provides some sound advice that is worthy of your attention as well as the attention of all who drive at any level of Uber or Lyft. I learned a few things to-day from reading his post. I am glad that he is back mostly just to have him back among us, but, as a user of service animals, he also has an important contribution to make to these Boards.
> 
> Thank you for this. I was not aware that you could refuse based on this. The advice about the dashboard camera is sound, as, of course, the person with the fake service animal will deny that the animal was misbehaving. I learned something to-day.


Thank you! I'm glad I could help. And thank you for the warm welcome back.


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

Pawtism said:


> The best way to defend against the fakers (the people saying it's a service dog when it isn't), is to ask them the 2 questions you're allowed to ask (and the only 2 questions you can ask). 1. Is this a service dog required for a disability? This is easy for them to lie to. 2. What work or tasks is it trained to perform? This is the "gotcha" one. Most fakers are either going to say "emotional support" or "you can't ask me that!" (you can lol). Make sure you are getting their responses on your dash cam. You can also tell by the behavior, if it's all out of control, barking, etc, that is a valid reason to refuse (make sure to get this behavior on the cam too).
> 
> Then, if you refuse them and cancel, immediately call into Uber/Lyft (this is critical, they tend to believe whoever calls in first). Let them know it was a fake, and that you have the evidence ("they said it was an emotional support animal" or "it was barking and lunging") on your dash cam (they probably won't ask to see it yet, and that's ok, just make sure they know you have it). That way, if they do call in and complain, Uber/Lyft is already aware of it, and at that time they may ask for your side again (and the footage, when you send them your side of it anyway, insist they look at the footage at that point). That's how you protect yourself against most the fakes.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for your comprehensive response, I appreciate it!
I believe your suggested solution is fairly right, and I think I will stick to it.
However, to be honest, I doubt that even if the driver reports the incident to UberLyft faster than the fraudulent pax, still UberLyft would side with the driver regarding this matter, due to high risk of being sued.
May I ask if you have any particular personal experience regarding your suggested solution? 
Thanks


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> Thanks very much for your comprehensive response, I appreciate it!
> I believe your suggested solution is fairly right, and I think I will stick to it.
> However, to be honest, I doubt that even if the driver reports the incident to UberLyft faster than the fraudulent pax, still UberLyft would side with the driver regarding this matter, due to high risk of being sued.
> May I ask if you have any particular personal experience regarding your suggested solution?
> Thanks


While I haven't had an issue personally (I drive with a service dog myself and had a complaint about that, even after I canceled, do not charge), there is a member on here who frequently does this, there are at least 3 times I'm aware of (and probably a few more from before my time here). In fact he even started posting the videos to YouTube (presumably to publicly shame those who try to fake it). Search for elelegido and you can find some of his posts about it (I'm pretty sure that's the correct member, if I have that wrong someone feel free to correct me). He gets initially deactivated while they "investigate" sometimes, but they always reactivate quickly because he has proof. Here is a couple of the videos he posted...











Just a reminder to everyone too, I made this post a while back...

https://uberpeople.net/threads/the-ultimate-service-dog-guide.253888/


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## Alexxx_Uber (Sep 3, 2018)

Pawtism said:


> While I haven't had an issue personally (I drive with a service dog myself and had a complaint about that, even after I canceled, do not charge), there is a member on here who frequently does this, there are at least 3 times I'm aware of (and probably a few more from before my time here). In fact he even started posting the videos to YouTube (presumably to publicly shame those who try to fake it). Search for elelegido and you can find some of his posts about it (I'm pretty sure that's the correct member, if I have that wrong someone feel free to correct me). He gets initially deactivated while they "investigate" sometimes, but they always reactivate quickly because he has proof. Here is a couple of the videos he posted...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot ... this is perfect example! 
It's very helpful. I really appreciate it. 
However, I still believe the pax can fake it though. The pax only needs to claim a fake training of the dog, for example that the dog can sense the suger level for diabetes. Just in my opinion.


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Alexxx_Uber said:


> Thanks a lot ... this is perfect example!
> It's very helpful. I really appreciate it.
> However, I still believe the pax can fake it though. The pax only needs to claim a fake training of the dog, for example that the dog can sense the suger level for diabetes. Just in my opinion.


Sadly, it is possible that someone who has done enough research into it, and had a dog who was well behaved enough (like a service dog washout for example, or with really good behavior training), could convincingly fake an answer to the 2nd question. I don't dispute that, but my thoughts are, that particular dog won't be any problem anyway (as long as it behaves as well as a service dog would, it's not going to tear up your car, make a mess, etc). It's a bit like someone having a wheel chair. Could someone rolling around in a wheel chair be faking? Sure, but we can't force people in wheelchairs to prove they need to be in a wheel chair (that would not only be discrimination, but a downright rude thing to do). It's the same with service dogs (which are considered medical equipment, same as a wheel chair).

It's the people with the obvious fakes (the misbehaving dogs, they say "emotional support" or "you can't ask me that!" to the second question, etc.) that we CAN do something about, so lets focus on that.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Pawtism said:


> In fact he even started posting the videos to YouTube (presumably to publicly shame those who try to fake it).


I posted the videos to YouTube so that they could be seen by people on this site. There is a lot of misinformation circulating among drivers regarding service animals, specifically the mistaken belief that all a pax has to do is claim that the dog is a service animal and the driver must take it. The videos show to drivers who do not want to take non-service animals how to deal with these pax and not get fired by UberLyft.

The situation for drivers is made worse given the misinformation and disinformation propagated by UberLyft. Be it by error or by design, UberLyft's reps' ignorance on the subject of service animal subject is of the same detriment to drivers. Just today I received this in response to my report to Uber of another service animal fraudster. With the exception of drivers not being able to ask for paperwork / proof of disability, every single thing written by "Laurence" in his reply is wrong:










I did reply, but it was pointless of course.










Luckily, the "investigators" who review reports and video evidence do know the ADA.



Alexxx_Uber said:


> Thanks a lot ... this is perfect example!
> It's very helpful. I really appreciate it.
> However, I still believe the pax can fake it though. The pax only needs to claim a fake training of the dog, for example that the dog can sense the suger level for diabetes. Just in my opinion.


Yes, pax who are aware of the "tasks" question can fake it. This has only happened to me once in 9,000 rides, though.

An older gent who looked around 60 walked up to the car with a dog following behind. The man moved unencumbered and showed no signs of restricted movement. To the tasks question he replied that his dog was trained to pick things up for him and to fetch things for him. I highly doubted this, given the way the man was able to move. However, he had given a feasible answer to the question and I had to take him and his dog.


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

elelegido said:


> I posted the videos to YouTube so that they could be seen by people on this site. There is a lot of misinformation circulating among drivers regarding service animals, specifically the mistaken belief that all a pax has to do is claim that the dog is a service animal and the driver must take it. The videos show drivers who do not want to take non-service animals how to deal with these pax and not get fired by UberLyft.
> 
> The situation for drivers is made worse given the misinformation and disinformation propagated by UberLyft. Be it by error or by design, UberLyft's reps' ignorance on the subject of service animal subject is of the same detriment to drivers. Just today I received this in response to my report to Uber of another service animal fraudster. With the exception of drivers not being able to ask for paperwork / proof of disability, every single thing written by "Laurence" in his reply is wrong:
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think because (as we've seen in some of these threads), too many drivers try to go too far with the questioning (or don't understand where the questioning has to end), Uber tries to tell them not to ask anything at all (rather than give them the correct info). I know you do know where the boundaries are (as evidienced not only by your videos, but your other posts on the subject). I do wish they would just explain where the line is better, but then they have to deal with... well, what we deal with in these threads... and they just don't want to. I'll keep doing my part to educate where I can (and I hope you don't mind my using your videos as examples).


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Pawtism said:


> Yeah, I think because (as we've seen in some of these threads), too many drivers try to go too far with the questioning (or don't understand where the questioning has to end), Uber tries to tell them not to ask anything at all (rather than give them the correct info). I know you do know where the boundaries are (as evidienced not only by your videos, but your other posts on the subject). I do wish they would just explain where the line is better, but then they have to deal with... well, what we deal with in these threads... and they just don't want to. I'll keep doing my part to educate where I can (and I hope you don't mind my using your videos as examples). :smiles:


Yes, the goal here is to have as many drivers as possible be made aware of how to deal with this. I'm not sure if it's misinformation or disinformation on UberLyft's part. I think that giving out the wrong information is not intentional - I think it's just one more manifestation of the incompetence of biblical proportions that is innate to UberLyft's staff. The next reply I got was this, from a different support drone. Evidently this one knows more than the first one:


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