# Does transporting unaccompanied minors void uber's insurance?



## lovisone

Since it is against uber's TOS for an account holder to let an unaccompanied minor use the platform , does it render uber's insurance null and void if an accident were to occur while transporting an unaccompanied minor since the account holder fraudulently allowed an unaccompanied minor to use their account?


----------



## Walkersm

Probably a legal argument they could make in the face of a very large lawsuit but they would probly default to they are not a transportation provider and the driver indemnifies them from all liability before they tried to refuse liability due to passenger age. Because putting a driver in the poorhouse is no big deal but saying they are not responsible for kids is a PR nightmare.


----------



## Simon

I would lean toward yes


----------



## lovisone

Here is uber's official response.

*Annalyn* (Uber)

Dec 27, 13:57

Hi Patricia,

Annalyn here, stepping in for Edron. Happy to help.

All the users of the Uber app must be 18 yrs old or older, this means that any rider younger than 18 yrs old is not covered by insurance. If there are minors, there should be an adult accompanying them on the trip.

If you have any additional questions or concerns, please don't hesitate to reach out.


----------



## Choochie

Yeah so most of the underage riders I pick up have their own account. So what do I have to do now, ask for proof of age. 
Here's the situation, the underage drivers have a debit account and lie about their age. It's their account most of the time. It's all green to me. I do draw the line on infants without car seats though. The parents couldn't care less about their own children. Cancel, thank you $10.00.


----------



## lovisone

I will ask their age. I have a dashcam so will have a record of their answer. If they say they're 18 or over then I think I've done my due diligence. Under 18 then I'm canceling and forwarding the little blurb I just got from uber to the account before I cancel.


----------



## Walkersm

Yea keep that email. I could see another rep deactivating you for turning down a ride after an irate parent writes in.


----------



## scrurbscrud

lovisone said:


> I will ask their age. I have a dashcam so will have a record of their answer. If they say they're 18 or over then I think I've done my due diligence. Under 18 then I'm canceling and forwarding the little blurb I just got from uber to the account before I cancel.


I ask 'em for ID. Liars never have them and say no. If they say yes, I never ask to look at it. Hope they don't catch on soon.


----------



## scrurbscrud

I usually preface the question with this: LOOK AT ME. When they do, then it's Are you 18 or older? It's harder for kids to lie when they look you in the eye.


----------



## UberTaxPro

What about parents that ping for rides for their kids? pick em up at school, take them to sports practice etc....all unaccompanied by an adult?


----------



## scrurbscrud

UberTaxPro said:


> What about parents that ping for rides for their kids? pick em up at school, take them to sports practice etc....all unaccompanied by an adult?


Wait 5 min. and cancel for no show.


----------



## UberTaxPro

scrurbscrud said:


> Wait 5 min. and cancel for no show.


Ever since uber lowered rates here that's my # 1 option on every ping!


----------



## scrurbscrud

UberTaxPro said:


> Ever since uber lowered rates here that's my # 1 option on every ping!


If I've driven for more than 5 min. to destination or a combo of drive/wait exceeding 5 min. I ask the kid if they have the phone that ordered the ride, then tell them that they are supposed to be 18 to use the app and if they aren't they better cancel, now. Beats waiting the 5 min. after arrival to put a quick hang up call to whoever.

I did recently have a younger than 18 who was accompanied by a pal that was over 18, so that worked for me. Close enuf. Get in let's go.


----------



## JSM0713

scrurbscrud said:


> Wait 5 min. and cancel for no show.


You are 1000% Spot on with that one.... NO WAY do I go to a JHS or HS to pick up anyone.... Park down the street, cancel the ride and bill for a no-show.... Asking an Uber driver to transport an underage person to take them anywhere is a disgrace totally on the parents shoulders... The hell with them... anything, and I mean anything goes wrong, you're screwed. Last HS ride I gave, this kid loaded up 3 friends to tag along for the ride, different stops.... except the litte s**t never told me. I ended the ride at the kids location and THEN she tells me about the others. I ordered them all out of the car and told them to request another ride.... tough noogies. Of course, the original rider slammed me on the ratings.... It's like touching a stove one time is all it takes to learn. In fact, I won't even pick up at a local college.... all part of the learning process. One more thing... the students NEVER NEVER EVER TIP.....


----------



## RamzFanz

JSM0713 said:


> One more thing... the students NEVER NEVER EVER TIP.....


In your area they never tip. They do tip here some.


----------



## SafeT

I had an idiot ping me and want me to give a ride for his 13 yr old a few days ago. I refused and reported it to Uber. They had same response. Must be 18 yrs old, did the right thing.


----------



## RamzFanz

lovisone said:


> Here is uber's official response.
> 
> *Annalyn* (Uber)
> 
> Dec 27, 13:57
> 
> Hi Patricia,
> 
> Annalyn here, stepping in for Edron. Happy to help.
> 
> All the users of the Uber app must be 18 yrs old or older, this means that any rider younger than 18 yrs old is not covered by insurance. If there are minors, there should be an adult accompanying them on the trip.
> 
> If you have any additional questions or concerns, please don't hesitate to reach out.


I highly doubt that response. This is what they told me about picking up unaccompanied minors:

_Thanks for reaching out about this.

As an independent contractor, questions such as this are left to your discretion. You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know.
_
I would be shocked if they tried to say a pax wasn't covered. You never know though.


----------



## lovisone

RamzFanz you asked about picking them up, I asked whether or not they were insured.

I initially received the same exact cut & paste response that you received, which did NOT answer my specific question regarding coverage of an unaccompanied minor, since TOS states users must be 18. I therefore requested my question be escalated.


----------



## SCdave

Really should be asking Uber CSR "as a passenger" this Unaccompanied Minor and Insurance Question. Like, " I want to have my 16 yr. old son use Uber on his own. How can I do this?". Get email. Depending on response, inquire about Insurance.

chi1cabby , this would be a good one for one of your reporter contacts.


----------



## lovisone

SCdave said:


> Really should be asking Uber CSR "as a passenger" this Unaccompanied Minor and Insurance Question. Like, " I want to have my 16 yr. old son use Uber on his own. How can I do this?". Get email. Depending on response, inquire about Insurance.
> 
> chi1cabby , this would be a good one for one of your reporter contacts.


I think this is an excellent idea!


----------



## RamzFanz

lovisone said:


> RamzFanz you asked about picking them up, I asked whether or not they were insured.
> 
> I initially received the same exact cut & paste response that you received, which did NOT answer my specific question regarding coverage of an unaccompanied minor, since TOS states users must be 18. I therefore requested my question be escalated.


There is definitely a disconnect there then! To say it's up to us without saying they would be uninsured is a nightmare waiting to happen for all parties.


----------



## Choochie

Here is your insurance answer I received today and more:

Thank you for writing in. Jonatan here with Partner Support, stepping in for Dani to further assist you. I understand your concern on the insurance policy and I am happy to help.

The Uber insurance policy covers all riders and drivers of the 18+. Any riders under 18 should not be riding on our platform and therefore you are able to decline a trip with an individual that you believe is not of age. However, if a rider is 18+ with a child, they both will be covered under the policy.

Below, you can find an overview of how insurance works for rideshare drivers with Uber. You can always read a more detailed overview here.

From the time you log into the Uber partner app until you accept a trip in Massachusetts we maintain a policy that provides 3rd party liability coverage in the amounts of $50k/$100k/$25k. This policy is contingent to your personal policy, meaning it will apply only if your personal auto insurance does not apply In the state of Massachusetts, we also maintain Uninsured Motorist coverage in amounts of $35k/$80k and Personal Injury Protection coverage in the amount of $8k.

From the time you accept a trip until its completion and the rider(s) exits the vehicle, in Massachusetts we maintain the following coverage:

• $1M of 3rd party liability;
• $1M of uninsured/underinsured motorist injury; and
• contingent comprehensive and collision insurance - so, if you maintain comprehensive and collision insurance on your own personal policy, our policy will cover physical damage to that vehicle up to the actual cash value of the vehicle, for any reason, with a $1,000 deductible

In the state of Massachusetts, we also maintain Personal Injury Protection coverage in the amount of $8k.

You are not required to purchase rideshare insurance as we will maintain coverage on your behalf that will comply with all state and local laws.

You can find the certificate of insurance we maintain here and you can also find this in the app through the Waybill.

Please reach out if you have any additional questions and/or concerns.

Best


----------



## lovisone

You notice how they skate around actually saying that unaccompanied minors are not covered?


----------



## Realityshark

Call your insurance company and ask them. Have them review the new insurance info that you agreed to a month ago by logging on. Or, just keep rolling the dice on everything you own.


----------



## SCdave

Okay. So if I decline an Unaccompanied Minor, and I notify Uber of this, and Uber does not deactivate the account that that minor has/is using, is Uber not accepting all liability? Are they now self-insuring all Unaccompanied Minors if their insurance carrier decides not to payout? 

And if there is a pattern of Drivers sending in reports to Uber about Unaccompanied Minors, is Uber now accepting all liability?

And if Drivers send in a question to Uber Support in their local market and the Uber Customer Service Rep., says, "well, this is up to the discretion of the Driver", is Uber accepting all liability whether the Rider and/or Driver TOS says otherwise?

Is it what is in the TOS or what Uber allows, as a pattern, and actually promotes either by action or inaction, as an approved business practice on their TNC Platform? And that they/Uber, is profiting by this action or inaction?

Hmmmmm.....


----------



## Choochie

They do have a funny way of beating around the bush. They did say they shouldn't be riding on the platform if under 18 and not accompanied by a rider who is 18. That does not say IF covered, just they should not be using the service.
They like being ambiguous because they love the $$.
I asked if I should check the ID's but never got an answer. 
I can't remember if they have cancel - minor. I will suggest that. Our area has a large underage ridership. This leaves me with asking them to cancel or me cancelling - no show.
When you don't ask about picking up underage kids without asking about the insurance they say"In regards to the question about riders under 18: As an independent contractor, questions such as this are left to your discretion. You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know."
So talking out of both sides of their mouth.


----------



## chi1cabby

Today Uber rolled out Family Profiles. Following the announcement of Uber Family Profiles, reporters are writing that now parents can use this feature to *request & pay for rides for their minor children!*
But *Uber's TOS* prohibit rides by unaccompanied minors:









Additionally, unaccompanied minors are not covered by Uber's Insurance:









What's more, Uber Drivers do not undergo biometric (fingerprint) based background checks that are being *required by California PUC *of Drivers for TNCs like Shuddle & HopSkipDrive.


----------



## RamzFanz

chi1cabby said:


> Today Uber rolled out Family Profiles. Following the announcement of Uber Family Profiles, reporters are writing that now parents can use this feature to *request & pay for rides for their minor children!*
> But *Uber's TOS* prohibit rides by unaccompanied minors:
> View attachment 32256
> 
> 
> Additionally, unaccompanied minors are not covered by Uber's Insurance:
> View attachment 32257
> 
> 
> What's more, Uber Drivers do not undergo biometric (fingerprint) based background checks that are being *required by California PUC *of Drivers for TNCs like Shuddle & HopSkipDrive.
> View attachment 32258


I've seen the reply from Google you are quoting and it can't be correct IMO. I've asked Google myself, as have others, and we were told carrying minors was our decision.

More importantly, we have no way to verify if they are even the account holder much less if they are of age. We don't know their full name, birthdate, and there is no profile image. They are not required to have ID nor are we to ask for one.

Most importantly, _WE are the ones insured_, not the passengers, and the insurance certificate does not qualify the passenger as being an account holder or adult, only that we were requested through the app and driving to the destination.

Other than that single CSR reply, who we all know is not reliable, there is nothing that would indicate we wouldn't be insured nor is there any incident that I'm aware of where James River didn't pay. The CSR even contradicts him/herself by stating minors were not covered and then saying they needed to be accompanied by an adult.

I doubt they even ask the age of anyone involved. Has anyone who has been in an accident even been asked?


----------



## chi1cabby

RamzFanz said:


> I've seen the reply from Google you are quoting and it can't be correct IMO.


The screenshot of email from Uber Support that I posted above is "NOT from Google". It is the screenshot of the actual email from Uber Support to lovisone that *she posted here in this very thread*.

And Uber Support's email to Choochie *posted here* also states:


Choochie said:


> The Uber insurance policy covers all riders and drivers of the 18+.


----------



## RamzFanz

chi1cabby said:


> The screenshot of email from Uber Support that I posted above is "NOT from Google". It is the the screenshot of the actual email from Uber Support to lovisone that *she posted here in this very thread*.
> 
> And Uber Support's email to Choochie *posted here* also states:


Yes, I meant Uber, and I've seen the one. Mine doesn't say that at all.

While we have no absolute evidence one way or the other yet, there's no way they don't cover minors and there is no definition of passenger on the certificate other than "requested transportation services."

Statements like "_The Uber insurance policy covers all riders and drivers of the 18+_." is clearly not accurate and is contradicted by the first reply from them.


----------



## Huberis

RamzFanz said:


> Yes, I meant Uber, and I've seen the one. Mine doesn't say that at all.


The OP states she initially received the same response, then asked again after refining her question.


----------



## RamzFanz

Huberis said:


> The OP states she initially received the same response, then asked again after refining her question.


I'm just skeptical of the broken english contradictory replies. I tried to call the company on the certificant, Aon Risk Insurance Services West, Inc., but couldn't get a human. I'm going to try again later.

I don't believe for a second they don't cover minors. The coverage is for our liabilities and we have no way of verifying anything.


----------



## Huberis

My guess is if a claim needed to be made concerning a minor riding solo, the minor would probably be covered, but in turn, that doesn't mean Uber's insurance couldn't in turn come after you. The reason for not allowing minors to ride solo is likely to have to do with personal security issues than say covering a claim in an accident if I had to guess. 

Both parties, driver and pax are informed of Uber's policy concerning minors not being permitted to travel alone. That seems accurate. Uber does give out plenty of info suggesting they expect the app holder to be one of the pax etc. There are lots of good reasons for all of that considering the structure of the system.

Considering both parties are notified, I'm guessing Uber is going to play that hand when and if needed. I wouldn't hold any response to be definitive and trust my own best judgement....... it seems by far the wisest choice to play things safe and not haul minors without an adult. Uber always likes to create grey area, it givers their partners space to do as they please in the end, just don't expect them to come through for you.


----------



## RamzFanz

chi1cabby said:


> The screenshot of email from Uber Support that I posted above is "NOT from Google". It is the screenshot of the actual email from Uber Support to lovisone that *she posted here in this very thread*.
> 
> And Uber Support's email to Choochie *posted here* also states:


So, I stand corrected.

Uber is adamant there is no insurance for unaccompanied minors. Not if _they_ let a minor get an account. Not if the minor _conspired with an adult_. None.

Well, according to 3 levels of PS. They refuse to let me communicate with Uber legal and they refuse to respond to those scenarios.


----------



## chi1cabby

RamzFanz said:


> Well, according to 3 levels of PS. They refuse to let me communicate with Uber legal and they refuse to respond to those scenarios.


Many reporters have been made aware of this lack of clarity on the issue of insurance coverage for unaccompanied minors. Some of these reporters were dismayed, and I hope will follow-up with Uber for a response.


----------



## Wabbitt

In California, the CPUC has clarified that it is illegal for regular TNCs like Lyft & Uber to transport unaccompanied minors, & is asking them to provide plans this month for how they will ensure this does not happen.


----------



## RamzFanz

Wabbitt said:


> In California, the CPUC has clarified that it is illegal for regular TNCs like Lyft & Uber to transport unaccompanied minors, & is asking them to provide plans this month for how they will ensure this does not happen.


It's about time.


----------



## melusine3

SCdave said:


> Really should be asking Uber CSR "as a passenger" this Unaccompanied Minor and Insurance Question. Like, " I want to have my 16 yr. old son use Uber on his own. How can I do this?". Get email. Depending on response, inquire about Insurance.
> 
> chi1cabby , this would be a good one for one of your reporter contacts.


Brilliant!


----------



## Jessie Newburn

I've had a number of younger riders. 16-ish in age. I guess it's a slippery slope to accept younger (and younger) riders.


----------



## ubersour

Rider TOS applies to the rider, not to the driver. However, maybe some jurisdictions might consider breaking TOS a delinquent act (don't know which would) and you are contributing to it. Or maybe, you knew the person was a minor breaking TOS but gave ride anyway, and that minor was doing something like skipping school, which is a delinquent act. I suppose if bars can be held liable for people drinking too much then driving, maybe you could be held liable for that minors acts at the destination you dropped them at. Uber sucks for not policing both minors using the app and drivers who continue to drive them.


----------



## chevelle454

Well I spoke to Dan at James River and he tells me that there is no exclusion about minors . But again I can't get anyone at uber to make a clear and concise statement except for this response .

This agreement protects both riders and drivers in legal terms. You should not ask for identification from anyone, it is assumed in good faith that the rider is eligible to apply for the service. However, if you believe the rider is a minor, is your right to ask for identification and refuse service if need be.


----------



## Choochie

chevelle454 said:


> Well I spoke to Dan at James River and he tells me that there is no exclusion about minors . But again I can't get anyone at uber to make a clear and concise statement except for this response .
> 
> This agreement protects both riders and drivers in legal terms. You should not ask for identification from anyone, it is assumed in good faith that the rider is eligible to apply for the service. However, if you believe the rider is a minor, is your right to ask for identification and refuse service if need be.


Just do what you want to do with minors, cancel or drive them.
Off topic - my mother owned a 454 only cherry red with a white top. At the time she was in her 60's. Apple doesn't fall far from the trees.


----------



## chevelle454

Choochie said:


> Just do what you want to do with minors, cancel or drive them.
> Off topic - my mother owned a 454 only cherry red with a white top. At the time she was in her 60's. Apple doesn't fall far from the trees.


Pretty cool mom you had there. I bought this 70 Chevelle in 1972 had a 454 in it which was a dog . Put a 69 427/435 hp vette motor in it . Sold it in 1980 was a Sweet ride ..wish I had kept it .. Oh well.


----------



## JulieM678

So I'm covered if I know that 9 X out of 10 I'm picking up an underage teen; I can just cancel? Is there a menu choice in the app for that reason?


----------



## Choochie

JulieM678 said:


> So I'm covered if I know that 9 X out of 10 I'm picking up an underage teen; I can just cancel? Is there a menu choice in the app for that reason?


Hey Julie, yeah it's right under the "cancel, no car seat".


----------



## melusine3

chevelle454 said:


> Well I spoke to Dan at James River and he tells me that there is no exclusion about minors . But again I can't get anyone at uber to make a clear and concise statement except for this response .
> 
> This agreement protects both riders and drivers in legal terms. You should not ask for identification from anyone, it is assumed in good faith that the rider is eligible to apply for the service. However, if you believe the rider is a minor, is your right to ask for identification and refuse service if need be.


Please clarify with Dan whether or not an illegal act (in some states) would not disqualify the policy? It may just be my opinion, but if you're doing something illegal, your insurance company can deny the claim.


----------



## melusine3

Choochie said:


> Hey Julie, yeah it's right under the "cancel, no car seat".


Are you being serious, or just joking. I'm really curious. I had a case where a woman kept pinging me (because I was still in the area) to pick up her darling little child... ugh. I had to drive fast to get out of the way of that one.


----------



## Choochie

melusine3 said:


> Are you being serious, or just joking. I'm really curious. I had a case where a woman kept pinging me (because I was still in the area) to pick up her darling little child... ugh. I had to drive fast to get out of the way of that one.


Lol, of course, I'm joking - uber isn't going to add that. When I see the parents and no car seat I just tell them I can't take them. Then I go around the building and wait for 5 minutes and collect my $4.00. I had one the other day who asked me if uber is going to charge them and I told her to ask uber. What do they think our time and gas is free? Teaching them one by one. Oh and I always get "the other driver took us" to which I reply "that's up to them".


----------



## chevelle454

melusine3 said:


> Please clarify with Dan whether or not an illegal act (in some states) would not disqualify the policy? It may just be my opinion, but if you're doing something illegal, your insurance company can deny the claim.


Well you have a name take it upon yourself to get clarification.. Call him yourself.


----------



## BurgerTiime

I believe UberBlack can take them though. But it must be an Uber Black request. They do not fall under Ubers insurance and are true independent contractors that carry commercial insurance. There's no state law that says livery cannot transport minors. It will cost them the extra fair but there's one way around it.


----------



## LowRiderHyundai5000

Choochie said:


> Hey Julie, yeah it's right under the "cancel, no car seat".


Does this trigger the fee?


----------



## Mars Troll Number 4

My understanding is... the 18+ rule exists because in Many jursidictions you need additional background checks to do things like daycare, teaching ect, and some jurisdictions apply this requirement to transportation companies, and uber doesn't want to comply so they say that you have to be 18 so they can bypass that background check requirements.

Really the cost of insuring passengers shouldn't vary based on having one passenger over the age of 18. I honestly doubt that uber would deny coverage.

However i do beleive this is a loophole allowing uber to deny responsibility for a child getting picked up by a felon and something happening...


----------



## Mars Troll Number 4

LowRiderHyundai5000 said:


> Does this trigger the fee?


I've gotten the fee AFTER emailing support about it. Once I had the fee taken off and given back 4 times before the passenger was stupid enough to admit that the driver didn't want to take them because of the 2 year old..

Other than that i have always gotten the fee in 1-3 support emails.


----------



## Isitworthit

JulieM678 said:


> So I'm covered if I know that 9 X out of 10 I'm picking up an underage teen; I can just cancel? Is there a menu choice in the app for that reason?


Definitely "should" be a menu choice. I've scratched my head raw trying to understand why it's not a menu choice. I speculate it's because Uber values the profit of every ride, regardless of rider age, more than they value cost of defending themselves in a lawsuit for not providing the reason. They'd point the finger at the driver for ignoring terms and conditions of using their app. Their defense could be that "no show" is an adequate and appropriate reason to cancel because, if account holder doesn't accompany minor, minor can't ride, which follows that the account holder is a "no show" for not being at pickup point with intent to ride.


----------

