# Tdi debacle



## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

As the owner of a newer VW TDI and the new reports that have been released I'm going over my options. Once a recall is released I am sure it will effect MPG and resale value. I'm gonna push for a buyback of full purchase price and I have heard others trying to go this route. As of right now I really like my car but if it is going to effect me on many fronts of ownership (performance, longevity, mileage and value) they should either buy it back, give large extended warranties or a decent sized check. We shall see what the future has in store for them in the coming year.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Yeah, I can imagine it is going to hit you maybe 8 to 10% on the mileage front when they fix the code to enable the exhaust scrubbing. I wish you the best of luck on this one but I imagine that you'll see a class action suit slowly wind it's way theough court and you'll get coupons or a $300 check while the attorneys get millions. Now, if you were financed by VW and had a lot of mileage on the car from Ubering and negative equity in it, I would probably take my chances with dropping it off at the dealer and refusing to keep paying.


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## Luberon (Nov 24, 2014)

This made me wanna buy a used TDI. Will their sale price for used models fall? By how much? How much city mpg do you get?


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

Disgusted Driver said:


> Yeah, I can imagine it is going to hit you maybe 8 to 10% on the mileage front when they fix the code to enable the exhaust scrubbing. I wish you the best of luck on this one but I imagine that you'll see a class action suit slowly wind it's way theough court and you'll get coupons or a $300 check while the attorneys get millions. Now, if you were financed by VW and had a lot of mileage on the car from Ubering and negative equity in it, I would probably take my chances with dropping it off at the dealer and refusing to keep paying.


I paid cash for it, I don't like being upside down on loans so my only recourse is keep it or try to make them do a buyback.


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

Luberon said:


> This made me wanna buy a used TDI. Will their sale price for used models fall? By how much? How much city mpg do you get?


City I usually gets low 30's, buy one private party as I see people are gonna try to unload them, especially people really concerned about the environment, problem I see is people owing to much on them.


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## st3rling (Jul 27, 2015)

I was just thinking to buy used VW Passat TDI. What's the problem with them? What reports are you talking about? Do you mind sharing?

Nevermind, found it, google is your friend, right?
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/21/9365667/volkswagen-clean-diesel-recall-passenger-cars


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## SCdave (Jun 27, 2014)

While this is a "Software Defeat" issue at this time, it could become a hardware system retrofit issue quite quickly. Why?

To keep the performance levels that will sell the VW 2.0l TDI models, they will have to retrofit a hardware solution (Adblue / Urea system). Or they could possibly de-tune the engine (not sure on this though). Or VW offers a compensation package along with either hardware retrofit and/or de-tuning (???). Without a solution, you most likely won't be able to register your vehicles the next time you have to, right?

The issue with clean diesels is how to not have to add the expensive Adblue (Urea) Systems to pass emissions standards AND also keep performance standards high. Do both, good performance and meet emissions standards without Adblue System, not so easy. VW came up with a solution though. Yup, Software Defeat system...ouch.

Mazda has a new Skyactiv Diesel they been trying to bring to the USA for a few years (no Adblue System on it). I had my eye on this. But Mazda kept delaying saying they were just not happy with the Zoom Zoom they wanted out of the Skyactiv Diesel while meeting the US (read California) more stringent Emissions Standards. Okay in other countries with lower emissions standards, but just not quite there (without lowering performance) for the USA models.

Here's a very good article that explains it well. Sure there are and will be better ones, but check this one out: http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-recall-what-you-need-to-know-in-10-questions


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

I have the 2013 Passat tdi and it has the urea system in it. I'm not sure if the others in the living e do but even with it is still not meeting emissions according to the tests even though at a lower fail rate. This would mean they would need to detune my vehicle which I won't be happy with, it isn't a race car by any means but for the mpg the get up on it is decent, I would be sacrificing both.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

VW CEO resigns,

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...igns-saying-he-s-shocked-at-emissions-scandal


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## st3rling (Jul 27, 2015)

Wow, this is crazy... And I was going to get one within a month or two. Thank you limepro, you probably saved me from a lot of headache in near future.


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

st3rling said:


> Wow, this is crazy... And I was going to get one within a month or two. Thank you limepro, you probably saved me from a lot of headache in near future.


Yeah wait until the fix and see what compromises there are. If you can get one dirt cheap because of all this it is a great car with lots of room but it isn't what I bought into.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

There is some misconception about detuning and MPG.

When you lower HP which also lowers emissions, the MPG goes up. The more HP a car makes, the more fuel it consumes = higher emissions. Understand?

Unlike gas cars, TDI engines rely more on Torque then HP. HP is how fast an engine revs, Torque how much lbs of pay load it can haul. Just look at semi trucks.


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> There is some misconception about detuning and MPG.
> 
> When you lower HP which also lowers emissions, the MPG goes up. The more HP a car makes, the more fuel it consumes = higher emissions. Understand?
> 
> Unlike gas cars, TDI engines rely more on Torque then HP. HP is how fast an engine revs, Torque how much lbs of pay load it can haul. Just look at semi trucks.


Problem is they achieve their mpg and power by disabling the systems that control toxins released, with those systems in place power and mpg go down as displayed in their tests.


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## st3rling (Jul 27, 2015)

Plus that engine is only 150 HP and Passat was already little too heavy for that engine. Now if they lower HP even more to 130 - 120?, we're talking about 0-60 in 20 seconds...


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

st3rling said:


> Plus that engine is only 150 HP and Passat was already little too heavy for that engine. Now if they lower HP even more to 130 - 120?, we're talking about 0-60 in 20 seconds...


The power wasn't a problem, the vehicle is faster than a Lexus is250 but to sacrifice power, mpg or both isn't what I bought into.


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## LAuberX (Jun 3, 2014)

I'm thinking look for a computer for your car out of a junkyard... when and if the software update comes into play, put the junk ecu into the car and get only ONE ecu updated to the new program.

swap out the computers when testing or dealer service is required... It's like installing a high performance software package by simply keeping the existing ecu virgin.


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

LAuberX said:


> I'm thinking look for a computer for your car out of a junkyard... when and if the software update comes into play, put the junk ecu into the car and get only ONE ecu updated to the new program.
> 
> swap out the computers when testing or dealer service is required... It's like installing a high performance software package by simply keeping the existing ecu virgin.


I have a buddy that owns a vw shop that does tuning on them, its just the fact that they completely lied to everyone. I'm on vacation now though and I think I'm gonna pick up a minivan after stuffing this car with enough for 2 little ones for a week.


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## SCdave (Jun 27, 2014)

Possibly part of the government negotiations re billions in penalties will be about the amount and level of compensation to current owners.

Also I'm wondering if VW TDI owners in the 2009 - 2015 range (500K in USA) will be able to get compensation for any out of warranty work/repairs that were required.

Why? 

If I choose to purchase a aftermarket Performance Chip/ Box and VW discovered this after I took my VW 2.oL TDI in for warranty service, what do you think VW would say to me as the owner? Hey, no problem. Or sorry, aftermarket Chip/Box installed, this stressed components beyond their specs and your warranty is no longer valid.

So if VW changed the performance/tuning settings and hide this from customers who purchased their 2.0L TDI vehicles, wasn't there more stress placed on the vehicles components because of the "hidden" software? Shouldn't VW now be held liable for fraud that likely caused or contributed to the component failure even if out of warranty?


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

SCdave said:


> Possibly part of the government negotiations re billions in penalties will be about the amount and level of compensation to current owners.
> 
> Also I'm wondering if VW TDI owners in the 2009 - 2015 range (500K in USA) will be able to get compensation for any out of warranty work/repairs that were required.
> 
> ...


Interesting question, one I'm sure lawyers will try to get class action status for to garner big fees. Of course, the car owners will get something meaningful like a coupon good for $500 off a new car.


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## merkurfan (Jul 20, 2015)

BMW just got tossed in to the mess with the X3


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## cubanito1 (Sep 17, 2015)

I bought the TDI Sportwagen in 2013, great mileage averaging 40-47mpg highway and 28-30mpg in city driving. Hoping the new fix doesn't affect mileage, but with my luck it will. If prices go down then I'll just Uberx the shit out of it and pick up something new in a few years.


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## merkurfan (Jul 20, 2015)

cubanito1 said:


> I bought the TDI Sportwagen in 2013, great mileage averaging 40-47mpg highway and 28-30mpg in city driving. Hoping the new fix doesn't affect mileage, but with my luck it will. If prices go down then I'll just Uberx the shit out of it and pick up something new in a few years.


Keep it away from the dealer, they will flash the PCM and ruin your MPGs.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

merkurfan said:


> Keep it away from the dealer, they will flash the PCM and ruin your MPGs.


Then you won't pass emission test.


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## merkurfan (Jul 20, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> Then you won't pass emission test.


sure you will. the car goes in to emissions test mode that is the whole problem with the VW as of now..

Or does your emissions test check the revision of the software in your car? Around here we have no tests or inspections to worry about.


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

merkurfan said:


> sure you will. the car goes in to emissions test mode that is the whole problem with the VW as of now..
> 
> Or does your emissions test check the revision of the software in your car? Around here we have no tests or inspections to worry about.


If you require testing in your state I'm sure each vehicle is logged into a database by vin, I'm sure those doing testing have access to it. In North Carolina it has to go through a database and the sticker can't be issued without it as the mechanic only tests the vehicle not issue the sticker.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

merkurfan said:


> sure you will. the car goes in to emissions test mode that is the whole problem with the VW as of now..
> 
> Or does your emissions test check the revision of the software in your car? Around here we have no tests or inspections to worry about.


It's by vin, and then a copy of certificate of the test goes to motor vehicle department.


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## merkurfan (Jul 20, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> It's by vin, and then a copy of certificate of the test goes to motor vehicle department.


But the VWs currently know when they are being tested so they "adjust" to pass. Not sure how they know, but until they find a way to fool the car in to thinking it's not being tested so that it goes dirty, it'll pass.


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

merkurfan said:


> But the VWs currently know when they are being tested so they "adjust" to pass. Not sure how they know, but until they find a way to fool the car in to thinking it's not being tested so that it goes dirty, it'll pass.


They know if you have the fix done, until then you won't pass.


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## merkurfan (Jul 20, 2015)

limepro said:


> They know if you have the fix done, until then you won't pass.


There currently is no fix... So it could be a problem


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

merkurfan said:


> There currently is no fix... So it could be a problem


They are talking about in California not allowing to re-register if a fix isn't out soon as they were illegal to sell in the first place. Others will probably follow.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Don't know about any of that, but it's going to be a great time to buy VW stock when it bottoms out. VOW3.DE is trading today on the Xetra at 99.10 and still falling. Going to be one hell of an opportunity.


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## merkurfan (Jul 20, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Don't know about any of that, but it's going to be a great time to buy VW stock when it bottoms out. VOW3.DE is trading today on the Xetra at 99.10 and still falling. Going to be one hell of an opportunity.


I rode the Ford wave during the bail out... Pretty much divested myself at 19-20 a share. cap gains is a *****


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

merkurfan said:


> I rode the Ford wave during the bail out... Pretty much divested myself at 19-20 a share. cap gains is a *****


What did you buy at?


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## merkurfan (Jul 20, 2015)

elelegido said:


> What did you buy at?


1.40-1.50.. I bought so much my broker fired me. told me I was nuts..

lets just say he ate his words..


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

merkurfan said:


> 1.40-1.50.. I bought so much my broker fired me. told me I was nuts..
> 
> lets just say he ate his words..


Nice


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## merkurfan (Jul 20, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Nice


BTW.. I do agree with the broker. (don't tell him) I bet the farm and 4 low interest rate credit cards on Ford.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

merkurfan said:


> BTW.. I do agree with the broker. (don't tell him) I bet the farm and 4 low interest rate credit cards on Ford.


I wanted to do the same with bank stocks when they crashed, also around that time. Wife would not let me. Would have made a killing.

Anyway, VW's a risk worth taking in my book, taking everything into consideration.


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## merkurfan (Jul 20, 2015)

elelegido said:


> I wanted to do the same with bank stocks when they crashed, also around that time. Wife would not let me. Would have made a killing.
> 
> Anyway, VW's a risk worth taking in my book, taking everything into consideration.


my wife didn't know. till I told her.. then she replied you did WHAT?

I learned long ago.. ask for forgiveness, not permission.

since then, she has learned not to question my judgement. sometimes I loose (want some Enron or old GM stock?) sometimes I win


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

merkurfan said:


> But the VWs currently know when they are being tested so they "adjust" to pass. Not sure how they know, but until they find a way to fool the car in to thinking it's not being tested so that it goes dirty, it'll pass.


Different States use different testing methods. Can't full them all.


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