# UPFRONT FARES (earnings) ROLLING OUT TO MORE CITIES 2/15/2022



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber Sent An Email to all CLEVELAND, OH drivers today (as well as some other cities) announcing that UPFRONT Fare Earnings will begin on Thursday 17 February:

This program has been running in a dozen cities for 6 months now. Some drivers love it - others hate it (but they generally hate everything, lol!).

Overall, you can't complain about knowing what to expect in earnings and knowing where you are headed BEFORE you accept a trip.* This is what allows drivers to be called Independent Contractors: control of what jobs we take, when and where.*

It's called *"UPFRONT FARES". *As part of Uber Crew, I pleaded with them to call it UPFRONT* EARNINGS *so as to not confuse the hell out of drivers who know that a 'fare' is what a rider pays, not what a driver earns. Obviously, they didn't listen.
----------------------------------------------
*what’s new*








​

You’ll start seeing the fare, plus pickup and dropoff locations, right when you receive a request. This means that, each time you get a request, it will be easier to decide if it’s worth your time and effort.
The fares you see will not be based on fixed time and distance rates alone. Instead, upfront fares will be based on several factors: some you know well, like base fare and time and distance rates, and some are new, like real-time demand at the destination.
In general, fares on short trips will be going up and fares on long trips will be decreasing.
If there’s unexpected traffic and the trip gets a lot longer, you’ll see an increased fare on the trip receipt. If there’s a change of address in the app while you’re on the trip, you’ll see an updated fare as you go.

*The upfront fare is different in that it is not based on fixed time and distance rates alone. Instead, upfront fares will be based on several factors*: some you know well, like base fare and time and distance rates, and some are new, like real-time demand at the destination.

Now you have a lot more information in your hands to decide which trips are worth your time and effort.

Plus, a new feature called Earnings Trends will further help you choose when and where you want to drive.


*Why am I no longer able to view time and distance rates?*
We will no longer post set time and distance rates since you’ll see the fare on every request before you accept it. With upfront fares, you’ll have more information to decide if a trip is worth your time and effort.

The only items that are not included in the upfront fare are wait time fees and tips, which continue to be added as soon as they’re paid out.

Amounts related to Quests, Consecutive Trips, and other driver promotions will also continue to be added to your balance as they’re paid out.


*Why am I earning less on some trips?*
As part of this change, in general, fares on long trips are decreasing, but at the same time fares on short trips are increasing. In addition, the fares you see will not be based on fixed time and distance rates alone. Instead, upfront fares will be based on several factors: some you know well, like base fare and time and distance rates, and some are new, like real-time demand at the destination.

No matter what, you’ll see the fare on every request before you accept it, so you can decide if it’s worth your time and effort.


*What happens if the rider changes the destination after the trip starts?*
If there’s a change of address in the app while you’re on a trip, you’ll see an updated fare as you go.


*Will my earnings decrease if I take a shorter and/or faster route??*
You’ll typically earn the upfront fare even if you take a shorter route. So if you’d like, you can continue to choose a quicker or shorter route based on your own expertise.



*PART TWO OF THE ROLL-OUT* is designed to offset the possible 'pickup/destination discrimination' that may occur from showing the pick-up & drop-off locations. 

*It is a **'job-board', Uber is calling UBER RADAR*. You and other drivers will be shown available rides near you and be able to virtually 'raise your hand' to let them know you're willing to take it. Uber will assign it to a driver.








​


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> It's called *"UPFRONT FARES". *As part of Uber Crew, I pleaded with them to call it UPFRONT* EARNINGS *so as to not confuse the hell out of drivers who know that a 'fare' is what a rider pays, not what a driver earns. Obviously, they didn't listen.


Because it’s not your EARNINGS either. Your EARNINGS is what you make on the fare that you’re paid AFTER you account for all your incurred expenses such as fuel, maintenance, insurance, etc etc.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Uber Sent An Email to all CLEVELAND, OH drivers today (as well as some other cities) announcing that UPFRONT Fare Earnings will begin on Thursday 17 February:
> 
> This program has been running in a dozen cities for 6 months now. Some drivers love it - others hate it (but they generally hate everything, lol!).
> 
> ...


Interesting. Any idea when we might see this in PA?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Ted Fink said:


> Any idea when we might see this in PA?


Only Uber could tell you that info


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber's Guber said:


> Because it’s not your EARNINGS either. Your EARNINGS is what you make on the fare that you’re paid AFTER you account for all your incurred expenses such as fuel, maintenance, insurance, etc etc.


No, I'm afraid not. I mean, it's semantics, but...
What you have left "_AFTER you account for all your incurred expenses such as fuel, maintenance, insurance, etc_" is your *profit* (ie: net income). 

Earnings are what you are paid before your expenses (gross income).


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

"As part of Uber Crew, "

How's that working for you? They don't listen to anything drivers say, why would they. Oh, they might ask you which color you like in the app better but that's about it.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Disgusted Driver said:


> "As part of Uber Crew, "
> 
> How's that working for you? They don't listen to anything drivers say, why would they. Oh, they might ask you which color you like in the app better but that's about it.


The two Uber Crew reps from Ohio (me and Jerry) both resigned - way back in Sept.
It was fun - we got to meet several Uber product managers and provide input and feedback on some things. It just became clear that was all they wanted; there was no channel to really get driver's voices heard or problems resolved. It was all about product development, which was fine - but not how the program had been pitched to us. So we left.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

lez du zum maf....

New
5.9 + 16.79 = 22.69 miles
$10.92 ÷ 22.69 = $.49/ mile

Old payout
$.64/mile. $.09/min
$.64 x 16.79 mile = $10.74
$.09 x 37 minutes = $3.33
Total. $14.07

So the new system you'd loose $3.10.

Enjoy your new system.


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## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

W00dbutcher said:


> View attachment 643427
> 
> lez du zum maf....
> 
> ...


Simpler math:
10.92 ÷ 47 minutes = NO FARKING WAY


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## Beninmankato (Apr 26, 2017)

Anybody care to screenshot some of these new offers? I'd like to see how much they are actually offering drivers.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

This is a busy time. Sample of the new fresh hell that awaits....


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## TX Uber Ant (Aug 24, 2019)

W00dbutcher said:


> This is a busy time. Sample of the new fresh hell that awaits....
> View attachment 643451
> 
> View attachment 643450
> ...


Those are some pretty terrible pings. The thing is they were giving the pickup up time and distance up front so this new system will just be confirmation that we were right in not doing long pickups to begin with. It looks like your market is time heavy too so your hourly rates suffer pretty badly because of that. They need to up your mileage rates bigly.


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## Go Uber or Go Home (Jul 13, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Uber Sent An Email to all CLEVELAND, OH drivers today (as well as some other cities) announcing that UPFRONT Fare Earnings will begin on Thursday 17 February:
> 
> This program has been running in a dozen cities for 6 months now. Some drivers love it - others hate it (but they generally hate everything, lol!).
> 
> ...


something is wrong with that picture... $20 for 17min ride? am i seeing that correctly?


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Go Uber or Go Home said:


> something is wrong with that picture... $20 for 17min ride? am i seeing that correctly?


That Uber's propaganda. Notice no street names? Every pic I have has street names.


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## Lord Summerisle (Aug 15, 2015)

Go Uber or Go Home said:


> something is wrong with that picture... $20 for 17min ride? am i seeing that correctly?


In the magical land of Ubervalley drivers are paid a decent rate.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

TX Uber Ant said:


> They need to up your mileage rates bigly.


There is no mile or minutes anymore with this. It's 1 lump sum. Take it or leave it.


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## TX Uber Ant (Aug 24, 2019)

W00dbutcher said:


> There is no mile or minutes anymore with this. It's 1 lump sum. Take it or leave it.


It is up the the ant to do the math on the fly now. In my market without surge and a decent pickup distance/time we top out at $40 per hour. With a good surge it can get as high as $160 per hour. This new system is going to be interesting for those who understand their market and how surge used to work. This will be bad for new ants and I suspect it will get scrapped because of them.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

TX Uber Ant said:


> It is up the the ant to do the math on the fly now. In my market without surge and a decent pickup distance/time we top out at $40 per hour. With a good surge it can get as high as $160 per hour. This new system is going to be interesting for those who understand their market and how surge used to work. This will be bad for new ants and I suspect it will get scrapped because of them.


This system works in favor of uber. The new ants or people who can't figure this out for themselves will be preyed upon because they will not realize how much money they are actually losing.

The ones that do figure it out will realize that there is a sweet spot that the money per mile and time actually works in their favor. I've already figured out where mine is for this Market.

You can kiss goodbye making any more than I would estimate $40 an hour unless there's like absolutely nobody driving,special events, or holiday where stay at home is better than out driving.


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## TX Uber Ant (Aug 24, 2019)

W00dbutcher said:


> This system works in favor of uber. The new ants or people who can't figure this out for themselves will be preyed upon because they will not realize how much money they are actually losing.
> 
> The ones that do figure it out will realize that there is a sweet spot that the money per mile and time actually works in their favor. I've already figured out where mine is for this Market.
> 
> You can kiss goodbye making any more than I would estimate $40 an hour unless there's like absolutely nobody driving,special events, or holiday where stay at home is better than out driving.


Here a another question since this has been ongoing in your market. Do they still only let you decline two pings before the app signs you out?


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

W00dbutcher said:


> This system works in favor of uber. The new ants or people who can't figure this out for themselves will be preyed upon because they will not realize how much money they are actually losing.
> 
> The ones that do figure it out will realize that there is a sweet spot that the money per mile and time actually works in their favor. I've already figured out where mine is for this Market.
> 
> You can kiss goodbye making any more than I would estimate $40 an hour unless there's like absolutely nobody driving,special events, or holiday where stay at home is better than out driving.


Uber's idea of a "map" is one that shows the pickup but not the drop off?

GTFOH.


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## TX Uber Ant (Aug 24, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Uber's idea of a "map" is one that shows the pickup but not the drop off?
> 
> GTFOH.


Not sure where you missed the prior posts but it does show the drop off.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

TX Uber Ant said:


> Not sure where you missed the prior posts but it does show the drop off.


Where in the maps are the dropoffs? 

The only routes I see on the maps are to the pickup addresses.


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## TX Uber Ant (Aug 24, 2019)

I find it pretty interesting that a California ant like @Lord Summerisle who has already experienced this and the only next possible step Uber could take would be for us to set our own rates would be so dead set against this.


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## TX Uber Ant (Aug 24, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Where in the maps are the dropoffs?
> 
> The only routes I see on the maps are to the pickup addresses.


Oh my bad you are right they are only showing the pickup on the map...


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

TX Uber Ant said:


> Here a another question since this has been ongoing in your market. Do they still only let you decline two pings before the app signs you out?


In my best Sean Connery voice :

2 pings please uber ant.
2 pings.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Uber Sent An Email to all CLEVELAND, OH drivers today (as well as some other cities) announcing that UPFRONT Fare Earnings will begin on Thursday 17 February:
> 
> This program has been running in a dozen cities for 6 months now. Some drivers love it - others hate it (but they generally hate everything, lol!).
> 
> ...


Uber's not done yet. Their next step will be to wait a few months and then remove the destination information from the ping. Just as before, they will claim that showing the destination to drivers lowered their earnings because fewer trips were accepted and drivers had to drive longer to pickups. So they will remove destination information as a favour to us and eventually pings will just have the pax' rating, the dollar value of the fare, and the estimated distance and time of the trip.

For rideshare drivers, this is not the beginning of the end. And it isn't the end of the beginning. It is the end of the end. But it comes as no surprise - drivers on here predicted up-front pay as far back as 4 years ago:









Uber's Next Anti-Driver Money Grab Tactic?


Obviously Uber is not a company whose behaviour is limited by the traditional constraints of ethics or morality, and I have a feeling that they are planning their follow-up to up front pricing. Up front pricing has increased their take of the fares, taking more money from drivers in order to...




www.uberpeople.net


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## jtk131604 (Apr 12, 2017)

Can we opt out from receiving the up front fares info? Probably not. Supposed to start here in Houston this week. Not looking forward to the next big driver screw.


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## montecristo (Aug 15, 2020)

TX Uber Ant said:


> It is up the the ant to do the math on the fly now. In my market without surge and a decent pickup distance/time we top out at $40 per hour. With a good surge it can get as high as $160 per hour. This new system is going to be interesting for those who understand their market and how surge used to work. This will be bad for new ants and I suspect it will get scrapped because of them.


Where is this, if I may ask?


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## FiftySeven (Dec 28, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Uber's idea of a "map" is one that shows the pickup but not the drop off?
> 
> GTFOH.


Yeah, that!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

montecristo said:


> Where is this, if I may ask?


some of the test markets over the last 6 months included Detroit, Columbus, St Louis or Kansas City... the roll-out now includes Cleveland and other cities


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

PART TWO OF THE ROLL-OUT is designed to offset the possible 'pickup/destination discrimination' that may occur from showing the pick-up & drop-off locations of ride requests. 

It is a 'job-board', Uber is calling UBER RADAR. 
You and other drivers will be shown available rides near you and be able to virtually 'raise your hand' to let them know you're willing to take it. Uber will assign it to a driver.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

W00dbutcher said:


> lez du zum maf....
> 
> New
> 5.9 + 16.79 = 22.69 miles
> ...


That's the whole point:
Long rides pay less because Uber prefers a driver do short rides rather than long rides. It increases customer service to more riders, is more profitable to drivers and is more profitable to the company.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Go Uber or Go Home said:


> something is wrong with that picture... $20 for 17min ride? am i seeing that correctly?


those pics are Uber examples.
reality may differ : )


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Uber Sent An Email to all CLEVELAND, OH drivers today (as well as some other cities) announcing that UPFRONT Fare Earnings will begin on Thursday 17 February:
> 
> This program has been running in a dozen cities for 6 months now. Some drivers love it - others hate it (but they generally hate everything, lol!).
> 
> ...


You know that they are going to be baseing time on the delusional amount of time they generally quote to get to the pickup too. I'm betting whatever combination of that and shortest route they can figure too. My butt hurts just reading it....


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

TX Uber Ant said:


> Here a another question since this has been ongoing in your market. Do they still only let you decline two pings before the app signs you out?


That's different in each market - it's up to the regional mgr to determine how that works in each region.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Where in the maps are the dropoffs?
> 
> The only routes I see on the maps are to the pickup addresses.


W00dbutcher posted this example. 
Not sure how much more info you can put on a screen when you have 5 seconds (or whatever) to accept the trip. 
It shows the pickup and drop off locations, the time and distance to the pickup and the time and distance to the drop-off.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> W00dbutcher posted this example.
> Not sure how much more info you can put on a screen when you have 5 seconds (or whatever) to accept the trip.
> It shows the pickup and drop off locations, the time and distance to the pickup and the time and distance to the drop-off.
> 
> ...


You're not sure how much more info could be given during a measly 5 second flash ping?

You can start with the fact that the ping lasts for only 5 measly seconds.

Every single thing they concoct in relation to the drivers is done in extreme bad faith. This new system is an excellent example of that.

Dara doesn't think these schemes up, instead he utilizes the "talents" of an army of soulless, ruthless, cynical geeks way down the food chain at Uber HQ whose job is to concoct better and better ways to take every last cent they can out of the drivers' pockets.

Make no mistake about it, the purpose of this new scheme is to cut the drivers' pay. If by chance it fails to do that, Dara will get rid of it.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> You're not sure how much more info could be given during a measly 5 second flash ping?
> 
> You can start with the fact that the ping lasts for only 5 measly seconds.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Uber doesn't care one wit about driver earnings beyond paying enough to get a driver to accept a ride. What a business - any business - care about, is customer retention and revenue growth. Uber isn't in business to make drivers happy any more than necessary than to find the balance of driver attrition to rider demand. 

If you think a $50 billion business is run on the emotional desire to make drivers lives miserable then you've obviously never run a business. And your characterization of Uber employees as "_an army of soulless, ruthless, cynical geeks_" further demonstrates you've no idea what runs a business and have never met anyone who works for Uber. What you describe is the fantasyland image of a company from someone who doesn't like the company.

There's more than enough legitimate things out here to complain about Uber and Lyft and the gig economy - there's no need to make stuff up.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I disagree. Uber doesn't care one wit about driver earnings beyond paying enough to get a driver to accept a ride. What a business - any business - care about, is customer retention and revenue growth. Uber isn't in business to make drivers happy any more than necessary than to find the balance of driver attrition to rider demand.
> 
> If you think a $50 billion business is run on the emotional desire to make drivers lives miserable then you've obviously never run a business. And your characterization of Uber employees as "_an army of soulless, ruthless, cynical geeks_" further demonstrates you've no idea what runs a business and have never met anyone who works for Uber. What you describe is the fantasyland image of a company from someone who doesn't like the company.
> 
> There's more than enough legitimate things out here to complain about Uber and Lyft and the gig economy - there's no need to make stuff up.


I have to disagree with your disagreeing. There is no doubt in my mind that they are trying to reduce their biggest cost, driver pay. Their whole model is built on attrition. Bring in a flock of newbie drivers, use a variety of psychological tools to get them to take rides for the lowest rate possible, rinse and repeat. It's not that they are trying to make drivers miserable just that they are trying to pay us as little as possible. Where it becomes an issue is the lies they tell us while they do it. Every little facet of the app and the way things are set up, the user interface, is designed to get us to accept whatever we are given and it's done in a manipulative fashion. I'm an expert at user interface design and it's clear to me that the things they do to make it hard to evaluate a ping, easy to accept, difficult to cancel and the criteria for the rewards program, coupled with the poor and misleading documentation indicate that people work very hard on this to make it work just so in Ubers favor. I have a great deal of disdain for those programmers who do this, it is a disregard and disrespect for their user base.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Disgusted Driver said:


> I have to disagree with your disagreeing. There is no doubt in my mind that they are trying to reduce their biggest cost, driver pay. Their whole model is built on attrition. Bring in a flock of newbie drivers, use a variety of psychological tools to get them to take rides for the lowest rate possible, rinse and repeat. It's not that they are trying to make drivers miserable just that they are trying to pay us as little as possible. Where it becomes an issue is the lies they tell us while they do it. Every little facet of the app and the way things are set up, the user interface, is designed to get us to accept whatever we are given and it's done in a manipulative fashion. I'm an expert at user interface design and it's clear to me that the things they do to make it hard to evaluate a ping, easy to accept, difficult to cancel and the criteria for the rewards program, coupled with the poor and misleading documentation indicate that people work very hard on this to make it work just so in Ubers favor. I have a great deal of disdain for those programmers who do this, it is a disregard and disrespect for their user base.


And I disagree with how you are looking at it.
Uber doesn't pay drivers. Drivers pay Uber to access the platform.


> >>Every little facet of the app and the way things are set up, the user interface, is designed to get us to accept whatever we are given<<<


That's how it was setup. Showing drivers the earnings and riders the fare they will pay, puts the control of whether a rider makes the ride request in the hands of the rider - and whether a driver accepts the ride, in the hands of the driver. That's More control in the users hands - not less.
I spent months working with Uber product managers providing feedback on the app and it's usability (and it's dangerous display features) - I know they listen.

One example: Uber showed us a new feature and let us use it in a test market. Most of us like the feature - but many of us warned the product manager that the way it was being shown on-screen was so distracting that it was going to get someone killed. Based on that feedback, the product manger worked with engineering to change how the feature was implemented. It's still not perfect, but it's better than it was - and that is the a feature that is in the roll-out this week.

That doesn't mean they can do everything that everyone wants - there are far too many drivers out here to please everyone with a single app. But when we provided feedback, we saw results and were taken very seriously. You make assumptions - and that's your prerogative. But it doesn't make your opinion correct or accurate.

Uber may not react to everything - but they do hear everything. And anyone who thinks that Uber (or Lyft) are in business to make drivers money or make drivers happy is sadly mistaken. The company has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders - not drivers. The most we can do as drivers is to drive smart and not do rides/deliveries that we lose money on. That's OUR responsibility.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I disagree. Uber doesn't care one wit about driver earnings beyond paying enough to get a driver to accept a ride. What a business - any business - care about, is customer retention and revenue growth. Uber isn't in business to make drivers happy any more than necessary than to find the balance of driver attrition to rider demand.
> 
> If you think a $50 billion business is run on the emotional desire to make drivers lives miserable then you've obviously never run a business. And your characterization of Uber employees as "_an army of soulless, ruthless, cynical geeks_" further demonstrates you've no idea what runs a business and have never met anyone who works for Uber. What you describe is the fantasyland image of a company from someone who doesn't like the company.
> 
> There's more than enough legitimate things out here to complain about Uber and Lyft and the gig economy - there's no need to make stuff up.


You've got things backwards. Uber's object is to get pax picked for the absolute dirt cheapest payouts possible.

Uber has zero interest in making drivers happy. They've made that abundantly clear for a long time.

Making drivers miserable is a "training aid" Uber, Doordash, and other gig companies use as a deterrent against "bad behavior" such as cherry-picking. Doordash has turned it into an artform.

I've run a small business and a very small business.

As far as I know I haven't met any Uber employees beyond the workers at Greenlight hubs. I've probably never met any members of Uber's and Doordash's Soulless Geek Armies but I don't have to have met them to know they're dirtbags. The same description fits their behavioral psychologists who design the psychological warfare against the drivers.

Devising methods to lie, trick, manipulate, intimidate, deceive, and empty the pockets of a predominately low-income workforce is a scummy thing to do, period.

One of the deans of this website is @New2This, and a while ago he made a hilarious observation about applying to become a member of Driver Advisory boards. He said (I'll try not to butcher his comment) that applicants are asked to fill out a questionaire listing what they believe are the 20 most important topics to discuss at board meetings, and if money is anywhere in that top 20 their application gets thrown in the waste basket.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> And I disagree with how you are looking at it.
> Uber doesn't pay drivers. Drivers pay Uber to access the platform.


Michael, I was really starting to like you. Until you posted this. That is just the latest Jedi Mind Trick that Uber is trying to pull on drivers to convince them that less is more, that you yourself posted from the updated driver agreement. I'm starting to wonder if maybe Uber didn't inject a few subliminal flicks in some video they showed you, because you are kinda singing the company tune.

There is no possible way to interpret this new program as anything other than a means to lower pay, including the strategy to pit drives against each other in a race to the bottom (of the pay scale).



Michael - Cleveland said:


> That's how it was setup. Showing drivers the earnings and riders the fare they will pay, puts the control of whether a rider makes the ride request in the hands of the rider - and whether a driver accepts the ride, in the hands of the driver. That's More control in the users hands - not less.
> I spent months working with Uber product managers providing feedback on the app and it's usability (and it's dangerous display features) - I know they listen.


Really? So that's why you quit the program?

I am impressed at the idea that there are some employees at Uber who are taking feedback seriously, at least one some level. But there are so many glitches, poorly implemented features, and safety hazards in the current app (that most all drivers would agree are there) that there is no possible way in Hell Uber is interested in the driver's experience. So given your stance that Uber is only beholden to its shareholders (true), in the end we can agree. I'm just left wondering about all that other nonsense you are putting out.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> You've got things backwards. Uber's object is to get pax picked for the absolute dirt cheapest payouts possible.


If you think I have things backwards, you're not really reading my posts.


Nats121 said:


> Uber has zero interest in making drivers happy.


See? That is exactly what I said:
me: _*Uber doesn't care one wit about driver earnings* beyond paying enough to get a driver to accept a ride. What a business - any business - care about, is customer retention and revenue growth. *Uber isn't in business to make drivers happy* any more than necessary than to find the balance of driver attrition to rider demand. _


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

_Tron_ said:


> There is no possible way to interrupt* this new program as anything other than a means to lower pay, including the strategy to pit drives against each other in a race to the bottom (of the pay scale).


_ (__*__I assume you mean "interpret" not 'interrupt', right?)_

You are making an assumption - an opinion not based on any experience using the new features of the app. I'm sorry, but an assumption about something from someone who has no experience with that 'something' just doesn't mean anything to me when I have my own first-hand experience with it.

Some people hate the change in the app. Most people however, like it because it helps them avoid time and money-wasting trips. So how about you hold off on a judgement until you use it - then bash it all you want and then I'll consider it a valid opinion - even if my opinion is different!


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> If you think I have things backwards, you're not really reading my posts.
> 
> See? That is exactly what I said:
> me: _*Uber doesn't care one wit about driver earnings* beyond paying enough to get a driver to accept a ride. What a business - any business - care about, is customer retention and revenue growth. *Uber isn't in business to make drivers happy* any more than necessary than to find the balance of driver attrition to rider demand. _


Not for one second do I believe Dara and his henchmen's mindset is "paying the drivers enough to accept rides". Instead, it's "how little can we possibly get away with paying to get that ride accepted". 

That mindset is reflected in everything they do in regards to the drivers. Uber is forever trying to push the envelope with the drivers, always testing limits of what they can get away with before the drivers push back. That's a completely different attitude than "making sure we're paying them enough to get the job done"

If drivers give them an inch they'll try to take a mile. 

Aside from the most obvious example of perpetual pay cuts, an excellent example of Uber's incrementalism is UberEats' stacked orders from two restaurants.

Initially, Uber made sure both restaurants were walking distance apart and the dropoffs were in the same direction and close together. Then gradually the two restaurants became further and further apart as did the dropoffs. Now the two restaurants may be miles apart in two different directions.

The saying "just because you can do something doesn't mean you should" is 180 degrees opposite of Uber's approach to everything. Their approach is always "what can we get away with".


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Not for one second do I believe Dara and his henchmen's mindset is "paying the drivers enough to accept rides". Instead, it's "how little can we possibly get away with paying to get that ride accepted".


You're still hearing (reading) what you want to hear.
_Not for one second do I believe Dara and his henchmen's mindset is "paying the drivers enough to accept rides"_
That is what I said... would it help if I add the word "just" so you can understand it to be "_paying the drivers _*just enough* _to accept rides" ?_? That's what I've been saying here since January 2015. You are agreeing with me - and saying that I'm wrong. lol!

The difference is that you attach all these emotions to stuff that is business and has nothing to do with anything.
Do you think that by increasing driver earnings - which would necessitate raising rider fares and handing business over to its competitors - that Uber would be doing 'good' business? Do you think the company, serving fewer riders and diminishing market share is in the shareholders best interest? The drivers best interest? How about if they just leave the US completely so there's no competition and Lyft can have a monopoly. Is that in drivers best interest?

As long as the driver attrition rate is 50% in six months, there is zero incentive for Uber to 'make drivers happy'. That attrition rate is now built in to the business model; after 6 months driving rideshare, 50% of drivers drop off the platform because drivers finally see the backend costs of driving rideshare and come to realize they are donating their time and vehicle to Uber & Lyft to help the companies build their brand - and the drivers are getting rewarded with less than their actual expenses for the trouble.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You're still hearing (reading) what you want to hear.
> _Not for one second do I believe Dara and his henchmen's mindset is "paying the drivers enough to accept rides"_
> That is what I said... would it help if I add the word "just" so you can understand it to be "_paying the drivers _*just enough* _to accept rides" ?_? That's what I've been saying here since January 2015. You are agreeing with me - and saying that I'm wrong. lol!



This is getting tedious. I'm not gonna keep going back and forth. You interpret it one way and I interpret it another way.

It's not the same thing. Corrupt people view things differently from honest people.

Since the first rate cuts in Chicago in 2013, Uber's been CUTTING driver pay, perpetually probing to see how much they can CUT while still getting rides accepted. In other words, the ever present question at Uber HQ is always "what's the largest possible pay cut we can get away with before drivers refuse to accept rides?"

Travis tried this approach in Detroit in January 2016 and learned the hard way that even "ghetto" drivers can be pushed only so far. He cut the per mile rate from 65 cents to 22.5 cents per mile. It backfired bigtime on him when drivers stayed home and surges exploded. Three months later he was forced to mostly restore the old rates.

When Travis slashed those rates down to shocking levels he wasn't thinking "Am I paying just enough?" he was thinking "I think I can get away with paying these down and out ghetto drivers virtually nothing". His hubris and probable racism influenced his decision to try it.

This isn't about "emotions", it's about observing Uber's behavior over several years and coming to logical conclusions based on their behavior history.

Uber pax have made it clear over the years that they're willing to pay for convenience and reliability. Thus, had Uber chosen not to try to become another Amazon behemoth by squandering billions on flying cars, boats, risky and costly ventures into Third World markets, and other wasteful practices, they'd be able to pay drivers decent rates while keeping their customers satisfied.

Uber themselves has acknowledged their 6 month turnover is 68%. If they're willing to concede that amount, the rate is almost certainly higher than 68%.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> This is getting tedious. I'm not gonna keep going back and forth. You interpret it one way and I interpret it another way.
> 
> It's not the same thing. Corrupt people view things differently from honest people.


You're right- you interpret it one way, and I another.

You, apparently, consider business people corrupt.
You, apparently, think that 20,000+ Uber employees spend all their time thinking of ways to "cut driver pay".

That's emotional hyperbole. You're entitled to your opinion.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You're right- you interpret it one way, and I another.
> 
> You, apparently, consider business people corrupt.
> You, apparently, think that 20,000+ Uber employees spend all their time thinking of ways to "cut driver pay".
> ...


If you're gonna try to paraphrase me, do it without the strawman routine.

There's ethical businesses and unethical ones. If you check my posts you'll see that I frequently defend businesses when Uber shills and bootlickers try to claim that "all businesses do what Uber does". Some do but most don't.

I have no idea how many Uber employees are involved with bending drivers over chairs with no lube and neither do you. But clearly there are many up the food chain all the way to Dara.

Uber defenders frequently label comments they don't like as being "emotional" as a feeble attempt to discredit them. It doesn't wash.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> _ (__*__I assume you mean "interpret" not 'interrupt', right?)_
> 
> You are making an assumption - an opinion not based on any experience using the new features of the app. I'm sorry, but an assumption about something from someone who has no experience with that 'something' just doesn't mean anything to me when I have my own first-hand experience with it.
> 
> Some people hate the change in the app. Most people however, like it because it helps them avoid time and money-wasting trips. So how about you hold off on a judgement until you use it - then bash it all you want and then I'll consider it a valid opinion - even if my opinion is different!


_ (__*I assume you mean "interpret" not 'interrupt', right?)_
Yes

_*__I assume *you* mean "judgment" not 'judgement', right?_

Yes I'm making an assumption (an inference really) that pay will be lower based upon the examples shown. Plus, dropping payment based upon mileage and time (which is already a step down from simply taking a percentage cut of the fare, based upon what the rider paid -the entire amount, no "marketplace fee"- is removing the last metric drivers had to ascertain the integrity of the pay for each ride. Now that that is taken away it is easier than ever for Uber to play the "frog in boiling water game", i.e. slowly dropping the offer for each ride, until at some point the driver makes no money after expenses.

This is not a good direction for either Uber or the drivers (or the shareholders), and in the end it will backfire, because this type of exploitation will wake up the legislators and next time around the lawmakers may get it right. Or, they will get it wrong and no more Uber.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

_Tron_ said:


> Plus, dropping payment based upon mileage and time (which is already a step down from simply taking a percentage cut of the fare,


Starting in 2020 it became two steps down because Uber and Lyft "decoupled" driver pay rates from the pax base rates in most markets.

In 2020, Uber and Lyft raised the fares for non-surge rides but kept driver rates the same. This had never happened before.

The first "decoupling" occurred in 2016 when Uber and Lyft introduced Upfront Pricing, but that decoupling was limited to surges. For off-peak/no-surge/base rate rides drivers were still paid 75% of the pax fare.

Now in most markets driver pay has ZERO relationship to pax fares.

In most markets drivers are being paid 63-70% of the pax fare for non-surge rides. Before 2020 it was always 75%.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Driver welfare is not a concern of Uber. Uber's goal is to fine tune driver pay so that there is just enough driver supply to cover demand, which obviously means paying drivers just enough, and no more, regardless of driver supply and demand levels at any given time.

The first driver pay model they had (80% of revenue and multiplier surge) was a very blunt instrument. While it ensured that driver supply was adequate during periods of high ride demand, Uber soon realised that it was overpaying drivers at all other times and that it could reduce driver pay and keep the savings during periods when driver supply was high. So Uber refined the pay model and made it much more dynamic - there is now a low base pay combined with incentive bonuses such as consecutive trip and quests to focus in on high demand areas and times to temporarily increase driver pay where needed.

There still remained a certain inflexibility for Uber, though, to reduce driver pay at times of high driver supply in the form of the fixed base rates for mileage and time. This latest move to upfront pay removes payments for mileage and time and gives Uber total flexibility to set pay on a ride-by-ride basis. Uber can now reduce driver pay as it sees fit when driver supply:demand is high as well as increase it when demand:driver supply is low.

This is just a natural progression of the refinement and increasing adaptability of Uber's pay model and it was always going to happen. It's got nothing to do with screwing drivers over and everything to do with Uber learning how supply, demand and driver pay interact in its business.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> This is just a natural progression of the refinement and increasing adaptability of Uber's pay model and it was always going to happen. It's got nothing to do with screwing drivers over and everything to do with Uber learning how supply, demand and driver pay interact in its business.


*This* - _precisely_.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

So I got a question. With an upfront fare, if a passenger asks you to make a quick stop at the quickie mart, do you see an extra dime for that or are you eating it. Is there an appreciable increase in the fare if they add the stop on the app?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Disgusted Driver said:


> So I got a question. With an upfront fare, if a passenger asks you to make a quick stop at the quickie mart, do you see an extra dime for that or are you eating it. Is there an appreciable increase in the fare if they add the stop on the app?


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> View attachment 643668


What this will mean, for the drivers who decide to keep driving, is that pax' special requests for a particular route to be taken should be rejected by the driver on all occasions. Profit maximisation will now depend even more heavily on the driver selecting the route that will finish the trip as quickly as possible.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Profit maximisation will now depend even more heavily on the driver selecting the route that will finish the trip as quickly as possible.


Or, taking a route that is the same time but twice the miles! (as we often do here when Uber's directions are to take surface streets but the highway is a more comfortable ride and the same time - but twice the miles)


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

I wonder if this change will result in drivers ejecting pax when traffic gets snarled up, given that sitting in unexpected gridlock would mean donating ones time to the pax for free.

My most common reason for ejecting pax is when Uber tries to load me up with someone who wants to go in a different direction from the direction I entered as a destination filter, but I wouldn't personally be opposed to dumping the pax if the route became slow or required a significant detour.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> I wonder if this change will result in drivers ejecting pax when traffic gets snarled up, given that sitting in unexpected gridlock would mean donating ones time to the pax for free.
> 
> My most common reason for ejecting pax is when Uber tries to load me up with someone who wants to go in a different direction from the direction I entered as a destination filter, but I wouldn't personally be opposed to dumping the pax if the route became slow or required a significant detour.


You mean you don't just extort cash from the pax in order to continue the ride, like I do? lol!


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

I don't think there's enough money in doing that here. The ejections I do are mainly when Uber wants me to take pax over the SF Bay Bridge into the ghettos of Oakland and surrounding areas. Not only is the bridge coming back to SF often very slow or blocked, but it's 80% hoodrat on the other side so it's a case of having to go offline and deadhead back to civilisation. 

I did have a pax once who offered an extra $20 if I would take him across the bay to Oakland airport while I was on a filter supposedly heading to San Francisco, but I still had to let him out - I would have needed double that to make it worth my while.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> I don't think there's enough money in doing that here.


I can see the Bay area being a nightmare. Unless you're trip is only in the city limits, every trip is a 'long trip'.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I can see the Bay area being a nightmare. Unless you're trip is only in the city limits, every trip is a 'long trip'.


It was always pointless driving during the day from 9am to 7pm because of the traffic, but it used to be lucrative at night and at the crack of dawn doing longer trips with surge, but the gig's up, as they say. The longer, traffic-free rides were where the money was, but Uber cut its rates at the airport and now with this latest fare cut further reducing the value of longer trips in general, my rideshare driving days have now pretty much come to an end. I will keep my account active and turn the app on if I am headed somewhere and don't mind giving someone a ride on the way (i.e. genuine rideshare) to make a few bucks but that's about it.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> ...and now with this latest fare cut further reducing the value of longer trips in general, ...


Is the UPFRONT pricing model rolling out in SF?


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Is the UPFRONT pricing model rolling out in SF?


I don't know if it's here yet. I haven't received any email from them on it and I haven't agreed to their latest terms and conditions so consequently can't go online.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> You're not sure how much more info could be given during a measly 5 second flash ping?
> 
> You can start with the fact that the ping lasts for only 5 measly seconds.
> 
> ...


It is really truely sad that you think that people like myself (a software engineer) think up how to cut drivers pay to get it as low as possible. We just do the work, that stuff comes from the higher ups. It is usually the CEO or CFO that would say "We need to lower driver pay" then it would come down to someone like a vp who would think up the idea of how they are going to do this. All we have are project owners who have to come up with what that will look like and how it will work and software engineers who will actually make it function the way a product owner thinks it should. I don't work for Uber but this is the way it has happened in every other company I have worked for. Shit flows downhill.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

Disgusted Driver said:


> I have to disagree with your disagreeing. There is no doubt in my mind that they are trying to reduce their biggest cost, driver pay. Their whole model is built on attrition. Bring in a flock of newbie drivers, use a variety of psychological tools to get them to take rides for the lowest rate possible, rinse and repeat. It's not that they are trying to make drivers miserable just that they are trying to pay us as little as possible. Where it becomes an issue is the lies they tell us while they do it. Every little facet of the app and the way things are set up, the user interface, is designed to get us to accept whatever we are given and it's done in a manipulative fashion. I'm an expert at user interface design and it's clear to me that the things they do to make it hard to evaluate a ping, easy to accept, difficult to cancel and the criteria for the rewards program, coupled with the poor and misleading documentation indicate that people work very hard on this to make it work just so in Ubers favor. I have a great deal of disdain for those programmers who do this, it is a disregard and disrespect for their user base.


Again blaming programmers here when you say you are an interface expert. The programmers are not designing the interface and are not coming up with how it will function. You blame people for doing what they are paid to do. You can blame the designer, you can blame the people who come up with these things but that is usually not a programmer. We typically task oriented. We get a task that tells us to do this thing and we do it. We don't come up with ideas on profit margins and how to make it so people want to use the app, that is done before it ever comes to us. I am sure a lot of people here will say something like "Well you shouldnt do it if you know its hurting someone" or something like that but we don't see it that way. As a software engineer we dont typically get to see the entire app or design of the app in the way the end user will so we dont always know what the reasoning behind the changes are. The company I work for now is huge and has about 20 different development teams, each one taking on a different portion of our products. I only work on a small section of our products and so I have no idea how any of the other stuff works. obviously you know that the design as a whole is something that is taken into account. Each product is made to work with the others, but as software engineers we rarely get to see what the other products do and how they work. If there is evil designed into an app it is designed from a higher place than a programmer.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

To add to my last comment its also worth noting that obviously uber is lying to its own employees about rates and stuff. Several people in this thread have already mentioned that image where the pay was $20 for a 20 min ride... Do you think that uber employees know that is fake? Unless they are drivers themselves or reading forums like this they would not know how much a driver actually makes... and some may care and others may not. 

Lets face, we choose to do this. Every single one of us could do something else. If the pay is low enough then go get another job. This is what you would do with any other job and what most people do their entire life. You can blame uber for lowering the rates but you should blame youself for continuing to drive at the lower rate.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

UberExplorer said:


> then it would come down to someone like a vp who would think up the idea of how they are going to do this


Nah... it wouldn't be a VP who would come up with how to reduce driver pay. Cost reduction falls under the remit of finance departments, who would work with data analysts to look at many operational driver metrics and decide where pay cuts can be made.

But yes, you are correct - lowly programmers (or "software engineers" lol) are just keyboard monkeys who put code together and build to a spec. An analogy would be to builders in the construction of a house - the architect is the brains who designs the building, calculates loads etc etc and the builders are the grunts who put the bricks and bits of wood together.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

elelegido said:


> Nah... it wouldn't be a VP who would come up with how to reduce driver pay. Cost reduction falls under the remit of finance departments, who would work with data analysts to look at many operational driver metrics and decide where pay cuts can be made.
> 
> But yes, you are correct - lowly programmers (or "software engineers" lol) are just keyboard monkeys who put code together and build to a spec. An analogy would be to builders in the construction of a house - the architect is the brains who designs the building, calculates loads etc etc and the builders are the grunts who put the bricks and bits of wood together.


Actually you are part correct here. It would include a data analyst, probably a team of them... The financial departments would still probably be a vp or director. But the construction analogy is mostly off. A software architect would do what an architect does. Software engineers and programmers are not exactly the same thing but are often used interchangeable (even by myself). Programmers are typically considered the lowest level of the food chain. The people who come up with the ideas would be more closely related to a customer to us actually. We work for them but they are our customers.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

UberExplorer said:


> Again blaming programmers here when you say you are an interface expert. The programmers are not designing the interface and are not coming up with how it will function. You blame people for doing what they are paid to do. You can blame the designer, you can blame the people who come up with these things but that is usually not a programmer. We typically task oriented. We get a task that tells us to do this thing and we do it. We don't come up with ideas on profit margins and how to make it so people want to use the app, that is done before it ever comes to us. I am sure a lot of people here will say something like "Well you shouldnt do it if you know its hurting someone" or something like that but we don't see it that way. As a software engineer we dont typically get to see the entire app or design of the app in the way the end user will so we dont always know what the reasoning behind the changes are. The company I work for now is huge and has about 20 different development teams, each one taking on a different portion of our products. I only work on a small section of our products and so I have no idea how any of the other stuff works. obviously you know that the design as a whole is something that is taken into account. Each product is made to work with the others, but as software engineers we rarely get to see what the other products do and how they work. If there is evil designed into an app it is designed from a higher place than a programmer.


Fair enough, you have more experience with this than I do. I work in a much smaller shop where we have a lot more input and authority and cross training/roles. So yes you are right, in most cases in large companies, the programmers are given specs for their little corner and the UI programmers are given the design and just make it happen.


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## Ms.Doe (Apr 15, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> W00dbutcher posted this example.
> Not sure how much more info you can put on a screen when you have 5 seconds (or whatever) to accept the trip.
> It shows the pickup and drop off locations, the time and distance to the pickup and the time and distance to the drop-off.
> 
> ...


Loser 
Would not accept that in 5 seconds or less


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

UberExplorer said:


> But the construction analogy is mostly off. A software architect would do what an architect does.


No, lol, this incorrect. However, this earlier statement you made is evidently correct:


> I only work on a small section of our products and so I have no idea how any of the other stuff works.


But that's fine - you are a programmer who is familiar of the processes involved in turning a business requirement into usable code.

First, the role of a technical architect is not analogous to a buildings architect. Don't let the shared name fool you. No, technical architect is a managerial role which makes high-level design choices of tools, software and platforms. The architect can oversee the software development life cycle but would not generally get involved with the design of individual systems or components in the way that a buildings architect would design individual end-product buildings.

The way software development works in large organisations is that the project sponsor issues a set of requirements for a new system or for changes to a new system. These are sometimes known as "business rules" and, as the name suggests, are the rules or algorithms to be implemented in software. Up-front pay for drivers is a great example of a change in the way a company does something, which will require software changes in order to operate.

In the first step of the software design, a business analyst will work with the project sponsor to produce a functional specifications (functional spec) document, which will detail all of the business rules to be implemented, and how the functionality required will be realised in the software. The document will include process flow diagrams as well as mock-up screens of how the user interfaces will look. This design document is, as the name suggests, is functional in nature, not technical.

Once the functional spec is complete and approved, it will be handed to a systems designer, who will take the information from it to produce a technical specification document (technical spec). This document is analogous to the blueprints for a building. A programmer will be able to look at a technical spec and build the required component, module or system, just as a builder can look at a blueprint and build a house from it.

Once the technical spec is complete, it will be given to the project manager, who will divide the development work among individual programmers or teams of programmers. You will have direct experience of this, given that you state above that you work on a "small section of products" and have no knowledge of other components. There will be managers higher-up who allocate your work to you and oversee the integration of your work with the work of others.

So, as you can see, the technical architect in a large organisation is a high-level supervisory role, and the roles of actually designing a software product are divided among both functional and technical specialists.

This is how software development _should_ work, of course. I have been brought in to fix several projects where people don't know what role is supposed to do what function, e.g. having systems analysts trying to capture business requirements, with predictably disastrous results.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

elelegido said:


> No, lol, this incorrect. However, this earlier statement you made is evidently correct:
> But that's fine - you are a programmer who is familiar of the processes involved in turning a business requirement into usable code.
> 
> First, the role of a technical architect is not analogous to a buildings architect. Don't let the shared name fool you. No, technical architect is a managerial role which makes high-level design choices of tools, software and platforms. The architect can oversee the software development life cycle but would not generally get involved with the design of individual systems or components in the way that a buildings architect would design individual end-product buildings.
> ...


Lol you went into an in-depth version of what I just said. Great job.

"No, technical architect is a managerial role which makes high-level design choices of tools, software and platforms. The architect can oversee the software development life cycle but would not generally get involved with the design of individual systems or components in the way that a buildings architect would design individual end-product buildings." Maybe I am misunderstanding what a construction architect does here... but it seems like they are pretty similar. An architect would design the blueprints which is basically how the building should be built, including materials and such. So yeah the software architect would not be involved in each individual project, he would oversee all the products to make sure they function together as expected... so yes choosing which tools software and platforms but also generally how it should be built by providing input on how it should be built. If they were only needed to choose what software and tools would be used a company would just contract them during the first 6 months of start up and then tell them they arent needed... because once it is determined I guess there would be nothing left? lol.

Either way you were the one who blamed the programmers so at this point it seems you are at least agreeing with me that they are not the ones to blame. oh well.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

@UberExplorer I am reading all your comments, and am agreeing with you in that the software people are not necessarily to blame, just as someone else was pointing out earlier that Uber is not trying to _screw_ the drivers. We drivers just know the effects of what we see; a poor user interface on the app, a reduction in pay, etc. It may come from higher up on the food chain. Or it may come from relatively low on the food chain.

Take for instance a recent glitch in the app. When you go online, if there is anything blocking you from taking requests an ACTION REQUIRED message will pop up. For example it happens daily when you first need to acknowledge the covid disclaimer. Or if you need to take a selfie. Once you do the housekeeping, the ACTION REQUIRED message disappears. Except some "programmer" broke that function a while back to where the ACTION REQUIRED message is not dismissed after the housekeeping is performed. It is present every time you go back online all day long. So we just ignore the ACTION REQUIRED as being false and simply tap the online button, and you are online.

Now that is simply a minor annoyance. Do I think Uber did that to irritate me? Of course not. But the question is, why doesn't someone fix the glitch (and the dozen other glitches)? I don't know the answer to that question. But I am guessing "someone" on the software team simply doesn't care enough to fix it. One wouldn't think that it would take take an executive to order it fixed. Maybe a team leader? Could it be that there is no team for day-to-day maintenance of the app? Seems unlikely. My best conjecture is low worker morale. On the other hand -and I say this from working in the industry since the early 80s- it is extremely common for software companies to ignore bugs in their current programs while they spend their resources developing new versions of the product. I am running MS Outlook 2013, and it still has the same annoying bugs as Outlook 2010, 2007, and 2003. I don't bother to upgrade to 2016 or 2019 versions because I've lost faith that Microsoft will fix the bugs in its programs. They like to add new features, not fix the old features. It's the "iteration toward perfection" that is do often missing. Maybe it's that same conundrum with the Uber and Lyft apps. At least in terms of glitches.

By the way, I met a young man who was gearing up to go to work for Uber in San Francisco. He was hired as a "designer". Not a programmer. Not a developer. Not a software engineer. A designer. Whatever that means. All I know is that this kid was just out of high school and therefore his skillset must be somewhat limited. I had to wonder what that kid was going to end up doing in his job.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

UberExplorer said:


> Lol you went into an in-depth version of what I just said.


Lol. no. You said that a software architect is analogous to a buildings architect, which is incorrect, whereas what I gave was an explanation of what a software architect _actually_ does.


> Either way you were the one who blamed the programmers so at this point it seems you are at least agreeing with me that they are not the ones to blame.


Again, *reading comprehension. At no point did I "blame the programmers". That was a different poster.

If you would care to have a re-read of what I wrote, you will see that my point of view is that it is obvious that the keyboard monkeys who simply build what they are told to build are not repsponsible for changes in business rules, lol.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

_Tron_ said:


> But the question is, why doesn't someone fix the glitch (and the dozen other glitches)?


In a word, priorities. A systems development manager only has so much production capability which he must allocate across all of the deliverables that he is required to complete. 

In corporations there is a constant battle between the project sponsors within the organisation and the IT teams who deliver the solutions. Sponsors want the functionality delivered yesterday for next to no budget, and the IT management will conversely seek to push back the deadlines and get more budget.

In specific relation to bugs; these are recorded in a "bug register" and categorised according to severity. What may annoy the hell out of the end user i.e. drivers, will in all likelihood not be a priority at all for a manager.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> What may annoy the hell out of the end user i.e. drivers, will in all likelihood not be a priority at all for a manager.


And what annoys one driver may not annoy another - and another may see it as a good feature.

When you have an app used by millions of people, you don't address things that are an issue to a minority of users until you fix, add, correct features that the majority have identified.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Uber Sent An Email to all CLEVELAND, OH drivers today (as well as some other cities) announcing that UPFRONT Fare Earnings will begin on Thursday 17 February:
> 
> This program has been running in a dozen cities for 6 months now. Some drivers love it - others hate it (but they generally hate everything, lol!).
> 
> ...


The NBA All-Star weekend is here in Cleveland right now. The new app features rolled out on Thursday. This morning, three of my friends reported having used the new app stuff all day yesterday and the averaged just over $50/hr (being out driving time... not 'app time'). The all said that using the new trip info helped them avoid bad rides and make more money. One of them even commented that a side benefit of having all the trip info before you accept is that you no longer need to use the worthless 'destination filter' to get home when you're done driving. : ) 

Undoubtedly all the restaurant/hotel/bar trips generated by NBAers contributed to the nice earnings... but this kind of event also draws out many more drivers (and we can still only do one ride at a time, lol). A slow day in Cleveland usually grosses around $20/hr. A good day here is usually $250-$300. So, $500-$600/day is always nice to see.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> The NBA All-Star weekend is here in Cleveland right now. The new app features rolled out on Thursday. This morning, three of my friends reported having used the new app stuff all day yesterday and the averaged just over $50/hr (being out driving time... not 'app time'). The all said that using the new trip info helped them avoid bad rides and make more money. One of them even commented that a side benefit of having all the trip info before you accept is that you no longer need to use the worthless 'destination filter' to get home when you're done driving. : )
> 
> Undoubtedly all the restaurant/hotel/bar trips generated by NBAers contributed to the nice earnings... but this kind of event also draws out many more drivers (and we can still only do one ride at a time, lol). A slow day in Cleveland usually grosses around $20/hr. A good day here is usually $250-$300. So, $500-$600/day is always nice to see.


When there's a demand for rides, yes the app works in your favor with the new system because of cherry picking, but you got to be quick. However on a normal day it might not be so profitable.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

W00dbutcher said:


> When there's a demand for rides, yes the app works in your favor with the new system because of cherry picking, but you got to be quick. However on a normal day it might not be so profitable.


Certainly doesn't make anything 'worse' on a normal day.
Knowing beforehand where you are going and ~ what you'll earn is never 'worse' than driving blind.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

In California we have had the up front info for quite some time. The rules for which drivers have access to it have varied quite a bit. Currently drivers who accept 5 of the last 10 offerings see the up front info. Sounds like the way up front is being implemented in other states does not depend on acceptance rate. ?

I find up front info extremely helpful and I take a crap right here an there to keep it. But we still have a connection between what the rider pays and our take per ride. In fact, Uber is more up front (no pun intended) than Lyft here in terms of exposing what the rider paid. Can that be termed the best of both worlds? Not really, because Uber's take rate is higher than ever (30% avg. for 2021, for my pattern of rides accepted, including grandfathered pay rate and EV incentives. Other drivers report take rates of 40% and up). But, "altering the deal" by removing the link of rider pay to driver pay opens up a giant can of worms in my view, and could suddenly make Lyft the preferred platform here. OMG. "_Lyft the preferred platform_"? I never thought I'd be uttering those words.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> And what annoys one driver may not annoy another - and another may see it as a good feature.


True enough, but there is a laundry list of glitches that most any thinking driver would agree could be improved.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> The NBA All-Star weekend is here in Cleveland right now. The new app features rolled out on Thursday. This morning, three of my friends reported having used the new app stuff all day yesterday and the averaged just over $50/hr (being out driving time... not 'app time'). The all said that using the new trip info helped them avoid bad rides and make more money. One of them even commented that a side benefit of having all the trip info before you accept is that you no longer need to use the worthless 'destination filter' to get home when you're done driving. : )
> 
> Undoubtedly all the restaurant/hotel/bar trips generated by NBAers contributed to the nice earnings... but this kind of event also draws out many more drivers (and we can still only do one ride at a time, lol). A slow day in Cleveland usually grosses around $20/hr. A good day here is usually $250-$300. So, $500-$600/day is always nice to see.


Yes I was there this weekend. The earnings were nice but after about 10pm not worth the traffic for the most part. I was seeing trips that popped up saying it was 10 mins for $40+ BUT the app was not accounting for traffic. All of the rides were either at the stadium where police would not allow drivers to pick up or in the flats which was almost an hour from any direction. I turned it off and drove to ohio city and turned it back on just to get more requests from the flats. I finally got one for $115 to drive to hudson and I took it and finished up the night in Kent. Normally traffic isnt a huge deal to me but I could not stand the way people were driving. It was incredibly aggressive which I can deal with but then you get stuck behind the one guy who wont pull in front of someone and so they sit there for 20 minutes. Eventually I had to sit on my horn until they figured out that traffic was not going to stop and they needed to move.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

elelegido said:


> Lol. no. You said that a software architect is analogous to a buildings architect, which is incorrect, whereas what I gave was an explanation of what a software architect _actually_ does.
> Again, *reading comprehension. At no point did I "blame the programmers". That was a different poster.
> 
> If you would care to have a re-read of what I wrote, you will see that my point of view is that it is obvious that the keyboard monkeys who simply build what they are told to build are not repsponsible for changes in business rules, lol.


Sorry since you responded to my response I assumed you were one of the 2 people that I replied too which was an incorrect assumption. Thats on me. I still hold what I said about architects as true. Sorry, you disagree but I guess thats life.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

_Tron_ said:


> In California we have had the up front info for quite some time. The rules for which drivers have access to it have varied quite a bit. Currently drivers who accept 5 of the last 10 offerings see the up front info. Sounds like the way up front is being implemented in other states does not depend on acceptance rate. ?
> 
> I find up front info extremely helpful and I take a crap right here an there to keep it. But we still have a connection between what the rider pays and our take per ride. In fact, Uber is more up front (no pun intended) than Lyft here in terms of exposing what the rider paid. Can that be termed the best of both worlds? Not really, because Uber's take rate is higher than ever (30% avg. for 2021, for my pattern of rides accepted, including grandfathered pay rate and EV incentives. Other drivers report take rates of 40% and up). But, "altering the deal" by removing the link of rider pay to driver pay opens up a giant can of worms in my view, and could suddenly make Lyft the preferred platform here. OMG. "_Lyft the preferred platform_"? I never thought I'd be uttering those words.


I think here in NE ohio lyft already is the preferred platform for riders. I know before the plandemic I had to drive lyft because there were almost no pings on uber. Better to stay busy than to sit in a parking lot for 45 minutes waiting for a ping. I personally hate lyft especially their new update that doesnt allow drivers to send messages while moving. I drove for them a week or 2 ago when they offered me $200 for 20 rides in a weekend so I picked up both the 40 ride bonus from uber and the 20 from lyft. Always great to have someone send you a message while your on the highway and you not be able to respond. Then when you do stop its great because it takes a full minute for lyft to realize you are stopped and allow you to send a message. With uber I typically use one of the automatic responses while driving. Never had an issue with destracted driving because of messaging on the app. Pings on the other hand, Trying to get all that info in 5 seconds while driving is not great. I started switching to XL only so I don't get rides in the hood as often that I have to cancel. If I dont get a ride by the end of my ride and switch back to X and make sure I get something decent.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

I have one huge complaint about the new information... In the old style it would tell you in which direction the ride is going. In the new one it just lists the addresses. I find addresses to be not totally useful because I have no clue where these roads are. I am not from the ohio area originally but even if I was I doubt it would matter. I am not in the habit of remembering the name of every side road I come across.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

UberExplorer said:


> Sorry since you responded to my response I assumed you were one of the 2 people that I replied too which was an incorrect assumption. Thats on me. I still hold what I said about architects as true. Sorry, you disagree but I guess thats life.


As you say, you're a programmer. As you gain more experience and progress through the ranks you'll get more of a handle on the roles and responsibilities of the "higher ups" in the work they do in the development life cycle, including that of architect.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

UberExplorer said:


> I have one huge complaint about the new information... In the old style it would tell you in which direction the ride is going. In the new one it just lists the addresses. I find addresses to be not totally useful because I have no clue where these roads are. I am not from the ohio area originally but even if I was I doubt it would matter. I am not in the habit of remembering the name of every side road I come across.


Uber knows most new drivers are clueless to most roads. Been doing this 5 years and i still go to roads i never even knew existed. Let alone the name .


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

_Tron_ said:


> In California we have had the up front info for quite some time. The rules for which drivers have access to it have varied quite a bit. Currently drivers who accept 5 of the last 10 offerings see the up front info. Sounds like the way up front is being implemented in other states does not depend on acceptance rate. ?
> 
> I find up front info extremely helpful and I take a crap right here an there to keep it. But we still have a connection between what the rider pays and our take per ride. In fact, Uber is more up front (no pun intended) than Lyft here in terms of exposing what the rider paid. Can that be termed the best of both worlds? Not really, because Uber's take rate is higher than ever (30% avg. for 2021, for my pattern of rides accepted, including grandfathered pay rate and EV incentives. Other drivers report take rates of 40% and up). But, "altering the deal" by removing the link of rider pay to driver pay opens up a giant can of worms in my view, and could suddenly make Lyft the preferred platform here. OMG. "_Lyft the preferred platform_"? I never thought I'd be uttering those words.


Correct, they are not considering accept rate and always exposing the up front info. Now I know what we have to look forward to. Once we get comfortable with it they will implement the 5 of 10 rule. That makes a lot of sense. This system (with radar) sucks when it's slow but is actually decent for now when it's busy. I declined 2/3 of the pings I got avoided several trips which might have looked good but were going to the middle of nowhere. I had a fantastic weekend $1430 in 29 hours but there were e3xtenuating circumstances. I had a quick $150 cleanup, I had a $100 do 50 rides and get used to upfront fares and a good quest. Not to mention, perfect weather, still warm in the evening but got real cold after midnight. 

What they seem to have successfully done with this change is get rid of the 20% club. Older drivers getting 20% off the rate card as opposed to newer drivers getting 25% off seems to be a thing of the past. I was getting short pings at the lower base ($3.00 instead of $3.20). It doesn't seem like a big difference but it's huge. It's roughly 6.5% more revenue and all of that is profit since your costs remain the same. It ends up being an 8.5 or 9% difference in profit for me which is huge over the long term. So I suspect I will be even more strategic about when I drive, particularly when the bonuses aren't there.


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## Soldiering (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> And I disagree with how you are looking at it.
> Uber doesn't pay drivers. Drivers pay Uber to access the platform.
> 
> That's how it was setup. Showing drivers the earnings and riders the fare they will pay, puts the control of whether a rider makes the ride request in the hands of the rider - and whether a driver accepts the ride, in the hands of the driver. That's More control in the users hands - not less.
> ...


Do you have an UBER tattoo?


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## Soldiering (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You're right- you interpret it one way, and I another.
> 
> You, apparently, consider business people corrupt.
> You, apparently, think that 20,000+ Uber employees spend all their time thinking of ways to "cut driver pay".
> ...


20,000+ is 10,000 too many. Guber corp is a poorly run radio shack. Youll never convince me otherwise.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberExplorer said:


> Yes I was there this weekend. The earnings were nice but after about 10pm not worth the traffic for the most part. I was seeing trips that popped up saying it was 10 mins for $40+ BUT the app was not accounting for traffic. All of the rides were either at the stadium where police would not allow drivers to pick up or in the flats which was almost an hour from any direction. I turned it off and drove to ohio city and turned it back on just to get more requests from the flats. I finally got one for $115 to drive to hudson and I took it and finished up the night in Kent. Normally traffic isnt a huge deal to me but I could not stand the way people were driving. It was incredibly aggressive which I can deal with but then you get stuck behind the one guy who wont pull in front of someone and so they sit there for 20 minutes. Eventually I had to sit on my horn until they figured out that traffic was not going to stop and they needed to move.


CLE cops have never done a worse job of traffic control then this weekend. 2 years of pandemic and clearly they are now completely untrained and have no plans for traffic control... As evidenced by closing prospect when Uber had already sent out notices that the pickup and dropoff location was 4th and Prospect.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Soldiering said:


> 20,000+ is 10,000 too many. Guber corp is a poorly run radio shack. Youll never convince me otherwise.


Why would I care about convincing you otherwise? If you want to make stupid decisions and opinions that aren't backed by any type of fact, that's your prerogative, lol!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Soldiering said:


> 20,000+ is 10,000 too many. Guber corp is a poorly run radio shack. Youll never convince me otherwise.


Why would I care about convincing you otherwise? If you want to make stupid decisions and express opinions that aren't backed by any type of fact, that's your prerogative, lol


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

Well with up front pricing I see many PAX missing their flights because I will no longer take the quicker route that adds 8-10 miles to the trip and saves 45-60 minutes. They can sit in traffic and miss their flight. 

Long trips paying less will most likely become a cancel for me, again letting PAX miss their flights.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

FLKeys said:


> Well with up front pricing I see many PAX missing their flights because I will no longer take the quicker route that adds 8-10 miles to the trip and saves 45-60 minutes.


Why would they miss their flight if you are taking the route suggested by Uber (and which is accounted for in their estimated arrival time in the app)?

Why would you take a route that takes you 45-60 minutes longer when you would only be paid the estimated fare?

The upfront fare means you no longer get stuck taking a ride that you don't want - and can accept only rides that make sense to you. We've been using it here (Ohio) since last August. Hard do imagine being worthwhile to drive without it now.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Disgusted Driver said:


> Correct, they are not considering accept rate and always exposing the up front info. Now I know what we have to look forward to. Once we get comfortable with it they will implement the 5 of 10 rule. That makes a lot of sense.


Perhaps. But I suspect it's even worse than that. Breaking the last connection from what the rider pays to what the driver receives opens up a VERY SLIPPERY SLOPE. Once drivers get comfortable with the system Uber at any time can start lowballing requests. What was an offer of $10 for the same time and distance last month may be $9 this month. And $8 next month. And with the implementation of offering multiple drivers a ride request in parallel instead of serial form, will it not become like playing Jeopardy? The first driver that rings in gets the ride. *Even less time to think!*

I do not see myself driving fro Uber if this abomination comes to California.



Disgusted Driver said:


> What they seem to have successfully done with this change is get rid of the 20% club. Older drivers getting 20% off the rate card as opposed to newer drivers getting 25% off seems to be a thing of the past.


I noticed that too.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Disgusted Driver said:


> Correct, they are not considering accept rate and always exposing the up front info. Now I know what we have to look forward to. Once we get comfortable with it they will implement the 5 of 10 rule. That makes a lot of sense. This system (with radar) sucks when it's slow but is actually decent for now when it's busy. I declined 2/3 of the pings I got avoided several trips which might have looked good but were going to the middle of nowhere. I had a fantastic weekend $1430 in 29 hours but there were e3xtenuating circumstances. I had a quick $150 cleanup, I had a $100 do 50 rides and get used to upfront fares and a good quest. Not to mention, perfect weather, still warm in the evening but got real cold after midnight.


The purpose of this change is to pay the drivers less and control them more.

This is Dara's honeymoon period, the purpose of which is to get drivers to accept this change. Barring some unusual occurrence, you can expect things to only go downhill from here.

The combination of this system with an AR requirement would be the worst pay model Uber's ever concocted for rideshare drivers. (Uber Connect is similar).



Disgusted Driver said:


> What they seem to have successfully done with this change is get rid of the 20% club. Older drivers getting 20% off the rate card as opposed to newer drivers getting 25% off seems to be a thing of the past.


First of all, sometime in 2020 in many markets, Uber and/or Lyft announced they were going to eliminate the old-timers' 80% rate and pay all drivers the same 75% rate. I don't know if Raleigh was one of the markets where this occurred.

Then, for the first time ever, Uber and Lyft decoupled drivers' pay rate cards from the pax base rate cards. Prior this decoupling, our pay rates were always tied to the pax base rates.

Uber and Lyft raised pax base rates but kept driver pay rates the SAME. This had never happened before (with the exception of Florida and a few other markets in 2018). Even when Upfront Pricing was implemented in 2016, this didn't happen. Surges were decoupled but base rates were still coupled to pax base rates.

Thus in most markets the drivers percentage fell from 75% to around 65-69%. This decoupling is probably the best kept secret in the history of the gig economy because so few drivers know about it, including the ones on this website.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

_Tron_ said:


> I noticed that too.


In many markets it had already been eliminated.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Why would they miss their flight if you are taking the route suggested by Uber (and which is accounted for in their estimated arrival time in the app)?
> 
> Why would you take a route that takes you 45-60 minutes longer when you would only be paid the estimated fare?
> 
> The upfront fare means you no longer get stuck taking a ride that you don't want - and can accept only rides that make sense to you. We've been using it here (Ohio) since last August. Hard do imagine being worthwhile to drive without it now.


Because the app does not account for the traffic delay properly. The app say 65 minutes along the designated route, it does not account for the 14 mile stretch that is bumper to bumper going 5 MPH and can add an extra 45 minutes to their trip. I show them on WAZE the faster longer route and they agree to take it.

I am thinking I won't be taking these trips any more. I don't care about earning per hour I care about earnings per mile driven.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

FLKeys said:


> I don't care about earning per hour I care about earnings per mile driven.


I disagree.

Although there's no single perfect metric for determining whether or not this job is worth doing, I believe the best overall metric is dollars per hour.

Dollars per mile is an important metric but it's too limited to be used as an overall metric of success. A high dollar per mile rate doesn't guarantee success but a dollar per mile rate that's too low guarantees failure.

If you place a lot of value on your time, dollars per hour is definitely the better overall metric.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

I just had a 90 mile trip pop up $68 . dont forget the return leg.

$.33ish a mile


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Nats121 said:


> In many markets it had already been eliminated.


I am sorry to hear that. As best I can calculate this is on the short list of the worst tricks Uber has pulled to date.

It will be interesting to see how Uber handles California. Prop 22, which kept drivers from becoming employees under State Bill AB5, has been declared unconstitutional. If prop 22 gets thrown out then AB5 may take effect. Hard to calculate how being on an hourly wage will pan out, but it may end up being a lesser evil than what Uber is doing.



Nats121 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Although there's no single perfect metric for determining whether or not this job is worth doing, I believe the best overall metric is dollars per hour.
> 
> ...


I see both your point and Mr. Keys' point. My metric has always been to gross a minimum amount per day, in a set number of hours driving. Since I confine myself to a limited driving range the day usually comes up about the same mileage, plus or minus 50 miles.

Once my pay drops below that minimum RS will no longer be a viable option. I'm already planning a private car service for tourists if that eventuality takes place.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> The purpose of this change is to pay the drivers less and control them more.
> 
> This is Dara's honeymoon period, the purpose of which is to get drivers to accept this change. Barring some unusual occurrence, you can expect things to only go downhill from here.
> 
> ...


Correct, Uber never officially put an end to the 80% club. They diminished it both by up front pricing and flat rate surge. This is the final blow. I'm quite familiar with the minutia of this, I'm the one who sued them for breach of contract when they implemented the upfront pricing. 
I can see where this is going. I will probably switch to only driving 8 to 10 hours a week, maybe doing 11 to 3 am when we get the best deal. I'm also thinking about selling the van. When they go back to 4 pax on x my xl days won't be nearly as good and I have no patience for x rates and radar.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Disgusted Driver said:


> Correct, Uber never officially put an end to the 80% club. They diminished it both by up front pricing and flat rate surge. This is the final blow. I'm quite familiar with the minutia of this, I'm the one who sued them for breach of contract when they implemented the upfront pricing.
> I can see where this is going. I will probably switch to only driving 8 to 10 hours a week, maybe doing 11 to 3 am when we get the best deal. I'm also thinking about selling the van. When they go back to 4 pax on x my xl days won't be nearly as good and I have no patience for x rates and radar.


I should clarify that the 65%-69% figures above are strictly NON-SURGE rides. On surged rides, drivers are often times receiving a lot less than 65%, sometimes as low as 20%.

Has XL been switched to radar as well? If so, there's absolutely zero incentive to do XL. What about Comfort?

What was the ruling in the suit? Is the case online?


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

Disgusted Driver said:


> Correct, Uber never officially put an end to the 80% club. They diminished it both by up front pricing and flat rate surge. This is the final blow. I'm quite familiar with the minutia of this, I'm the one who sued them for breach of contract when they implemented the upfront pricing.
> I can see where this is going. I will probably switch to only driving 8 to 10 hours a week, maybe doing 11 to 3 am when we get the best deal. I'm also thinking about selling the van. When they go back to 4 pax on x my xl days won't be nearly as good and I have no patience for x rates and radar.


80% club? What year are you living in? I have been actively keeping an eye on our rates and they are around 55% of what riders pay. Because of the plandemic uber raised prices for riders but did not pass that pay along to drivers. We have been getting stiffed for years. They charge more and offer us free masks. Then to incentivize us to drive they offer some of our pay back to us as a reward.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

W00dbutcher said:


> I just had a 90 mile trip pop up $68 . dont forget the return leg.
> 
> $.33ish a mile


I was seeing XL rides that were $3... they were not 1 mile trips either, some of them said they were over 10mins. I don't think it was showing me miles? maybe I'm mistaken its been a few days.

Another complaint I have about the App is that it doesn't inform you when you are on a 3 ride quest or whatever so when you cancel you lose your quest you didn't know you had. Sometimes worth it but sometimes not.

It is interesting driving here because if I dont like the upfront pricing I can drive a few miles south and pick people up on the old system in akron and make almost the same amount of money.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

UberExplorer said:


> 80% club? What year are you living in? I have been actively keeping an eye on our rates and they are around 55% of what riders pay. Because of the plandemic uber raised prices for riders but did not pass that pay along to drivers. We have been getting stiffed for years. They charge more and offer us free masks. Then to incentivize us to drive they offer some of our pay back to us as a reward.


Up until 2020, drivers WERE being paid 75% or 80% of the fare for NON-SURGE rides (excluding booking fees).

Read my posts above. I explain all about how this works. What you're talking about are the massive cuts Uber's been grabbing on SURGE rides since 2016.


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## UberExplorer (11 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> Up until 2020, drivers WERE being paid 75% or 80% of the fare for NON-SURGE rides (excluding booking fees).
> 
> Read my posts above. I explain all about how this works. What you're talking about are the massive cuts Uber's been grabbing on SURGE rides since 2016.


What I am talking about is the same thing you mentioned in that post, that in 2020 uber raised rates for riders but not for drivers and we were not longer getting 75-80%. I beleive this actually was lowered a bit before 2020 as well but at that time I had switched to eats for a while and before that I actually was in the florida market lol.


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## kdyrpr (Apr 23, 2016)

TX Uber Ant said:


> I find it pretty interesting that a California ant like @Lord Summerisle who has already experienced this and the only next possible step Uber could take would be for us to set our own rates would be so dead set against this.


What's with the David Koresh handle?


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## kdyrpr (Apr 23, 2016)

On the surface it looks like a good idea. Hard to see the negatives. My cancellation rate will go down considerably I can tell you that. 
One drawback will be the distraction of looking at the prospective rides while driving.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

UberExplorer said:


> What I am talking about is the same thing you mentioned in that post, that in 2020 uber raised rates for riders but not for drivers and we were not longer getting 75-80%. I beleive this actually was lowered a bit before 2020 as well but at that time I had switched to eats for a while and before that I actually was in the florida market lol.


You're one of the few people who know about this pay cut.

You're correct about Florida. Uber and Lyft introduced this stealth backdoor pay cut in Florida (as well as a few other markets) back in 2018. Most of the rest of the US got the stealth pay cut in 2020-21.

I'm pretty sure that the early bird pay cut markets have had at least one additional pay cut since 2018. If this is correct, the drivers in those markets are now receiving only around 63% of the fare on non-surge rides.

I got flak from some nice folks on this website when I wrote about this pay cut a while ago. They stubbornly insisted it was old news and they refused to admit they were confusing this pay cut with the Upfront Pricing system that was implemented in 2016.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> I should clarify that the 65%-69% figures above are strictly NON-SURGE rides. On surged rides, drivers are often times receiving a lot less than 65%, sometimes as low as 20%.
> 
> Has XL been switched to radar as well? If so, there's absolutely zero incentive to do XL. What about Comfort?
> 
> What was the ruling in the suit? Is the case online?


Sent you a PM about the suit. No XL is not on radar, I don't think comfort is either, just X.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

UberExplorer said:


> 80% club? What year are you living in? I have been actively keeping an eye on our rates and they are around 55% of what riders pay. Because of the plandemic uber raised prices for riders but did not pass that pay along to drivers. We have been getting stiffed for years. They charge more and offer us free masks. Then to incentivize us to drive they offer some of our pay back to us as a reward.


I am not referring to percentage of the fare charged to the passenger, we all know that ship sailed many years ago with upfront pricing. What I am talking about was percentage of the rate card. Up until this latest fiasco older drivers were getting 80% of the time, distance cancellation fee rate card. So for example, a minimum fare was priced at $4. I would get $3.20, new drivers would get $3.00. Cancellation, I would get $4, newbies would get $3.75, same for miles and minutes. I'm still getting the higher cancellation fee but everything else seems to be at the lower rate now. 

Now, what Uber is grabbing from the pax, that's a whole nother deal and you have to work the promos hard to have a chance at getting a decent percentage.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

kdyrpr said:


> One drawback will be the distraction of looking at the prospective rides while driving.


That's a very real and dangerous drawback. 

For years I've seen ants dangerously staring at their phones while driving slowly and weaving all over the place. This new system will make things even worse.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> It's called *"UPFRONT FARES". *As part of Uber Crew, I pleaded with them to call it UPFRONT* EARNINGS *so as to not confuse the hell out of drivers who know that a 'fare' is what a rider pays, not what a driver earns.


Yeah, they *definitely* botched the naming. In fact, they'll be lucky if they don't have to defend a lawsuit over it.



TX Uber Ant said:


> Do they still only let you decline two pings before the app signs you out?


Yes, at least here in Atlanta as of June. It's quite grating, especially when one is actively declining/dismissing offers (via the X) instead of merely ignoring it and allowing it to expire naturally. Uber's UX guys definitely lost the fight against Uber's bean counters on that one.

And a whole farking 8 seconds to evaluate and decide on an offer? 

It's all reminiscent of Alanis Morrissette's Ironic


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> And a whole farking 8 seconds to evaluate and decide on an offer?


Without a map.

Even if drivers had the full 15 seconds the lack of a map is a dealbreaker for me.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Without a map.
> 
> Even if drivers had the full 15 seconds the lack of a map is a dealbreaker for me.


It separates *men from ants. 

Time to put on your big person pants and thinking caps.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

W00dbutcher said:


> It separates *men from ants.
> 
> Time to put on your big person pants and thinking caps.


You're the one who needs to put on your thinking cap and think this thru...

The lack of a map as well as a woefully short ping time renders Radar all but useless as a tool for cherry-picking for all but a very select group of drivers such as yourself. 

Actually it's worse than useless because it pits driver vs driver in a "bidding war" to the bottom, pushing pay rates LOWER.

Genuine full trip info such as what California had in 2020 is an extremely valuable cherry-picking tool and is the polar opposite of Radar. It "bids" pay rates HIGHER.

Radar is perhaps Uber's most cynical and slimy move they've ever made, and that's saying a ton.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> You're the one who needs to put on your thinking cap and think this thru...
> 
> The lack of a map as well as a woefully short ping time renders Radar all but useless as a tool for cherry-picking for all but a very select group of drivers such as yourself.
> 
> ...


Yup i did put on my thinker cap. Even put on big boys pants.

$2ish a mile
33 hrs
789 miles
7 days

Plus $300 cash for taxi fares mixed into the miles and time.

You don't need no stinking map. What you do need is knowledge of your Market. I live in the largest geographic town in north America. So many streets. You learn your city streets intimately and very fast.

No more visual maps. You actually have to use your brain or stay an ant.

The radar? I've come to the conclusion the radar usually is something that is too far away or something you would not normally accept anyway based on your preferences the algorithm tracks. So basically it tells you what's coming up next so you don't have to accept it.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> You're the one who needs to put on your thinking cap and think this thru...
> 
> The lack of a map as well as a woefully short ping time renders Radar all but useless as a tool for cherry-picking for all but a very select group of drivers such as yourself.
> 
> ...


Are you on this system yet?

Also, the radar is heavily influenced by the latency of your device. So no matter how fast you can read the screen somebody else has got it before you read it ciphered and then accepted it because it flashes and goes away quicker you can even think about it.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

W00dbutcher said:


> $2ish a mile
> 33 hrs
> 789 miles
> 7 days


They're outlier numbers and irrelevant to the vast majority of drivers, just as Uber planned.



W00dbutcher said:


> You don't need no stinking map.


Uber doesn't agree with you, that's why they took the maps away. Uber knows that maps are more important than text, especially given the extremely short pings. Uber's correct in their analysis.

Like all their previous schemes this one is designed to take more money out of the pockets of the drivers. In the highly unlikely event it fails to do that, Uber will pull the plug. You can count on that.

Given the fact that Uber is expanding it and Lyft wants to copy it, it's doing what it was designed to do.


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## montecristo (Aug 15, 2020)

Nats121 said:


> Uber doesn't agree with you, that's why they took the maps away. Uber knows that maps are more important than text, especially given the extremely short pings. Uber's correct in their analysis.
> 
> Like all their previous schemes this one is designed to take more money out of the pockets of the drivers. In the highly unlikely event it fails to do that, Uber will pull the plug. You can count on that.


agreed

drivers aren't people to them, just numbers - to be manipulated and massaged ("We're so sorry for your complaint of ... But after a thorough review, we came to the conclusion that you are mistaken and we are correct."), used and abused


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## Not my email (8 mo ago)

Beninmankato said:


> Anybody care to screenshot some of these new offers? I'd like to see how much they are actually offering drivers.











So that's a hell no for me..nothing over 10 miles thanks


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> They're outlier numbers and irrelevant to the vast majority of drivers, just as Uber planned.


So because I figured out how to use their new system against them I'm an outlier? How about smart enough to understand the new system based on the four lines of information they give me. With no map.




Not my email said:


> So that's a hell no for me..nothing over 10 miles thanks


This guy right here, not only understands that he has just proven the point that you don't need a map.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> In the highly unlikely event it fails to do that, Uber will pull the plug.


But aren't you also saying that Uber decision makers know *exactly* how to cheat drivers?

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. It hurts your credibility.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

W00dbutcher said:


> So because I figured out how to use their new system against them I'm an outlier? How about smart enough to understand the new system based on the four lines of information they give me. With no map.


Do you know what "outlier" means? It doesn't look like you do, otherwise you wouldn't have made the comments above.

It means well outside the norm in either a good way, bad way, or neutral way. A driver who's able to make $2 per mile and use the new system against them is certainly not a typical driver, that's for sure. If it was, Uber would have scrapped the system immediately.

Instead, they're expanding it and Lyft is going to copy it.

It's purpose is to drive pay rates down, and based on the horrendous offers that have been posted all over social media, that's what's happening.

If drivers had full trip info like they did in California, Uber never would have been able to get away with sending the horrendous offers they're sending now.

Maybe you and a small percentage of drivers don't need a map or more than a nanosecond to make an informed decision but the vast majority of drivers do, which is why the system was designed this way.

Full trip info for drivers means effective cherry-picking. Effective cherry-picking means higher driver pay. That's what happened in California in 2020.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> But aren't you also saying that Uber decision makers know *exactly* how to cheat drivers?
> 
> You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. It hurts your credibility.


You're showing yourself to be a total ass who's trying to argue for the sake of arguing.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> You're showing yourself to be a total ass who's trying to argue for the sake of arguing.


You'll need to be more specific because I don't know what you're talking about.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Do you know what "outlier" means? It doesn't look like you do, otherwise you wouldn't have made the comments above.
> 
> It means well outside the norm in either a good way, bad way, or neutral way. A driver who's able to make $2 per mile and use the new system against them is certainly not a typical driver, that's for sure. If it was, Uber would have scrapped the system immediately.
> 
> ...


The technique is simple. Anyone can use it.

PU miles + DO miles are less then the offered $xx.xx.

most ants just blindly accept anything anyway, never even thinking about what there doing.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

W00dbutcher said:


> The technique is simple. Anyone can use it.


It's so simple that up until recently you were *****ing about it. So were many others.



W00dbutcher said:


> PU miles + DO miles are less then the offered $xx.xx.


Given the horrendous offers your simple system isn't working for most drivers.



W00dbutcher said:


> most ants just blindly accept anything anyway, never even thinking about what there doing.


That didn't happen in California. When provided with full trip info even the ants were cherry-picking, which gave Dara and his henchmen fits. This is why he wasted zero time getting rid of full trip info.

The fact is that all but the most zombified ants and Uber boy scouts will cherry-pick if provided full trip info. This scam is a sorry excuse of a substitute for full trip info.

This system has taken pay rates that were already terrible and made them even worse. It's also destroyed whatever remained of "surge". Now they can lie and say there's "surge" anytime they want and no one can prove otherwise.

Despite the fact that driver pay rate cards have been eliminated and replaced with top secret black box algorithms, Uber is dishonestly and cynically touting this system as "transparency" for the drivers.

If all of the above isn't bad enough, Uber could possibly use this system to short circuit any potential govt mandate for full trip info by claiming they've already done it "voluntarily".


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> It's so simple that up until recently you were *****ing about it. So were many others.


I never stoped complaining about it. Still to this day the prices are crap. But that little formula is a basis to make money. Nothing saying the total milage can't be a percentage of the total miles. Based on your individual market. If your milage cost is say 36¢ a mile, anyone could adjust that formula to say;

pu + do < 75% of milage
Example for your logic lacking ants you described.

2m + 3m < $3.75
This is 2x your expenses.

That would be the base you can accept to make money. I even said and always explained this was adjusted to each and every market.



Nats121 said:


> Given the horrendous offers your simple system isn't working for most drivers.


If you market cant provide 100% of your experiences a decent wage, why in the hell are you driving for uber then?


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

This forum also includes incentives and surge seeing how its all built into the upfront pricing now. So its Irrelevant in real life because you are trying to make a base to cover your expenses and put money in your pocket based on the four lines of information that are given to you monetary wise.

Do i need to explain in detail how this formula works? I mean i will for your so called logic lacking ants. 









Lowest per mile ive seen, ever.







www.uberpeople.net


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

W00dbutcher said:


> I never stoped complaining about. Still to this day the prices are crap. But that little formula is a basis to make money. Nothing saying the total milage can't be a percentage of the total miles. Based on your individual market. If your milage cost is say 36¢ a mile, anyone could adjust that formula to say;
> 
> pu + do < 75% of milage
> Example for your logic lacking ants you described.
> ...


I'll say it again, the fact that the offers are crap shows that the system is working as intended. Unprofitable rides are being accepted by befuddled newbie ants who are trying to concentrate on the road while nanosecond offers flash on the screen. Your "formulas" mean nothing to them.

I'll also repeat that this didn't happen in California in 2020 when drivers had full trip info. Driver pay went UP. Ants cherry-picked. Uber even resorted to offering Trip Premium bonuses as incentives to get certain rides accepted.



W00dbutcher said:


> If you market cant provide 100% of your experiences a decent wage, why in the hell are you driving for uber then?


If that's addressed to me I'll simply say I do food delivery only and I'm doing OK at it because I'm good at it. Given how tough my market is I'd have no chance to make money if I didn't have a good knowledge of my market and wasn't able to multi-app effectively.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Unprofitable rides are being accepted by befuddled newbie ants who are trying to concentrate on the road while nanosecond offers flash on the screen. Your "formulas" mean nothing to them.


Maybe they should read this forum and get proper information to do the job correctly?

Stupid is as stupid does and that's why they are befuddled and that's why they are not making money.



Nats121 said:


> I'll also repeat that this didn't happen in


This little formula is not designed to do anything but to make you money based on your expenses. When are you going to realize that? It's not going to raise prices it's not going to convince Uber to raise whatever it is that they're giving now. What it is is to show you the driver what you have to make per ride based on the information they are giving you to make money. That's all it does. It's not a fix-all.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Also, if you can't add two numbers together and quickly in your head Cipher that it's not 75% of another number, you've got other problems than driving for Uber and making money.

5 $3.75
10 $7.50
15 $11.25


I know its basic math but give people a little credit.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

W00dbutcher said:


> This little formula is not designed to do anything but to make you money based on your expenses. When are you going to realize that? It's not going to raise prices it's not going to convince Uber to raise whatever it is that they're giving now. What it is is to show you the driver what you have to make per ride based on the information they are giving you to make money. That's all it does. It's not a fix-all.


That little formula WOULD raise driver pay IF enough drivers used it. The problem is that very few drivers are using it.

If enough drivers used it the number of stranded pax would rapidly pile up, which would leave Uber no choice but raise driver pay. It's as simple as that. That's what happened in CA.

Give those very same drivers who aren't using your formula a map and 15 seconds to decide and they WILL cherry-pick.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> That little formula WOULD raise driver pay IF enough drivers used it. The problem is that very few drivers are using it.
> 
> If enough drivers used it the number of stranded pax would rapidly pile up, which would leave Uber no choice but raise driver pay. It's as simple as that. That's what happened in CA.
> 
> Give those very same drivers who aren't using your formula a map and 15 seconds to decide and they WILL cherry-pick.


Lmao. Your thick. 

You're still cherry-picking with this formula. 

All this other crap you keep bringing up is a possible byproduct of this formula. If the outcome of using this formula across the board raises the base pay for everybody what exactly are you effing bltching about?

I must say it one more time and I'm done with this conversation. It was designed only to cover your expenses and make pocket money.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

W00dbutcher said:


> Lmao. Your thick.
> 
> You're still cherry-picking with this formula.
> 
> ...


Is English your first language? It certainly doesn't appear to be.

As far as "thick" is concerned, YOU'RE the one who's not getting it.

You can only cherrypick with that "formula" if you USE it.

Uber knows this and that's why they implemented nanosecond pings and took away the map. They knew that doing those two things would make using formulas such as yours to cherrypick very difficult for all but a small number of drivers.

As I've said over and over again, NOT ENOUGH drivers are using it. If they used it, LOTS of pax would stranded as we speak and obviously they're not.

The nanosecond ping duration as well as the lack of a map PREVENTS most drivers from using the "formula". If the drivers had 15 seconds and a map they WOULD use it. This is basic stuff, not rocket science.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)




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## Uberyouber (Jan 16, 2017)

It's really bad. The trip radar sends it to multiple drivers. I had $14 for a 27 mile trip offer....

Make no mistake ITS A PAY CUT !!!


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Realtime ping for those want to see what is really going on.

There's plenty enough time for you add 2 numbers and estimate the formula.










Streamable Video


Watch this video on Streamable.




streamable.com


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Uberyouber said:


> Make no mistake ITS A PAY CUT !!!


Yes but only if you're an old timer. All the noobs this year don't know what it used to be like.


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