# Uber's dispatch patent explicitly mentions age discrimination against drivers.



## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

I thought I would mention it as it is probably important to many of us who are older and do this full time.

Here is an excerpt from a patent Uber made in regards to their dispatch system:



> Other factors may be concealed in the feedback data *111* such as a preference towards punctuality, a preference (or lack thereof) towards newer vehicles,* an age range preference for the driver*, and the like.


(emphasis mine)

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0011324.html

Here is that entire paragraph along with the previous and following paragraph from the patent for contextual purposes (with my own emphasis added) :



> In one example, the feedback data *111* can link a sentiment between the user and the driver, which can further be linked to various conditions that existed or occurred with the trip, including, for example, the vehicle manufacturer or type, a class of the user (e.g., if the user is an employee of the entity that operates the dispatch system *100*), the price or price rate of the trip, the time and/or the day of the week, the end location or destination of the trip, etc. The dispatch system *100* can extrapolate or determine an individual user's preferences based on what trip conditions existed or occurred that resulted in that user being satisfied or extremely satisfied with a trip or a driver of the trip, such that the user gave high ratings (e.g., four or five stars out of five) to that driver, or being dissatisfied or extremely dissatisfied with a trip or a driver of the trip, such that the user gave low ratings (e.g., zero to three stars) to that driver. Furthermore, the content of the feedback data *111* can provide further information regarding the user's preferences when receiving a transport service. The profile manager *110* can parse through or analyze the content of the feedback data *111* submitted by a given user for a driver to determine the user preferences. Additionally or alternatively, the designated application can include a feature that enables the given user to set various preferences.
> 
> In some examples, the user profile *132* can include a blacklist feature where the user is enabled to blacklist certain drivers to avoid future pairings. For matching operations, the matching engine *120* may identify whether one or more proximate drivers, in relation to the requesting user, are included in the user's blacklist. If so, the dispatch system *100* may automatically disregard the blacklisted driver(s) from the matching operation. Additionally or alternatively, the user preferences can be incorporated into the given user's profile *132*, and can include an assortment of factors, such as a preferred vehicle type (e.g., luxury cars, SUVs, a preferred brand of vehicle, hybrid electric cars, driverless vehicles, and the like). Other factors may be concealed in the feedback data *111* such as a preference towards punctuality, a preference (or lack thereof) towards newer vehicles, *an age range preference for the driver*, and the like. The profile manager *110* can identify and flag such preferences in the given user's profile *132*. Additionally or alternatively, each user profile *132* can include various user information, such as age, height, weight, gender, eye color, hair color, background, home address, work address, citizenship, country of origin, and various other user data, preferences, or configurations.
> 
> Furthermore, such feedback data *111* can enable the profile manager *110* to compile a given driver's profile *134* based on overall performance and merit. The driver profile *134* can include an overall rating for the driver (e.g., 4.67 stars), as well as individual ratings and/or complaints given by users. Each individual rating may be driver and/or destination specific. Accordingly, the profile manager *110* can identify various performance traits of the given driver. For example, the feedback data *111* may indicate that the given driver excels on certain types of trips (e.g., trips to the airport, trips in dense urban centers, etc.), while lagging behind in performance on other types of trips (e.g., long distance trips, trips on mountainous roads, etc.). For instance, a given driver may have received an average rating of 4.95 stars when that driver provides transport from San Francisco to San Francisco International Airport (e.g., from data analyzed from one hundred such trips the driver completed), but may have received an average rating of 4.23 stars when that driver provides within the San Francisco city limits for trips lasting longer than 15 minutes (e.g., from data analyzed from two hundred such trips the driver completed). Based on the feedback data *111*, the profile manager *110* can determine that the given driver excels on certain types of trips and lags behind on other types of trips.


Basically the patent discusses the dispatch system. Here it explicitly mentions the age of the driver as a way to discriminate and determine whether a certain driver gets matched to a certain rider.

I am going to read the entire patent and take it apart piece by piece to check what other things are within it. I will probably post a full analysis when finished. But I think the age discrimination aspect is pretty big. It is highly liklely this is already live and being used right now.

Also I will add that the age discrimination aspect of the patented dispatch algorithm appears to directly violate Uber's own published Non-discrimination policy:



> *Legal*
> *Uber Non-Discrimination Policy*
> Uber seeks to ensure that safe, reliable, and high-quality transportation options are available to everyone. Uber and its affiliates therefore *prohibit discrimination against riders or drivers* based on race, religion, national origin, disability, sexual orientation, sex, marital status, gender identity, *age* or any other characteristic protected under applicable federal or state law. Such discrimination includes, but is not limited to, refusing to provide or accept services based on any of these characteristics. Any rider or driver found to have violated this prohibition will lose access to the Uber platform.


https://www.uber.com/legal/policies/non-discrimination-policy/en/


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

Strange how we get penalized for zero stars given. How many pax do not rate at all?


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## mikes424 (May 22, 2016)

Uber and its affiliates therefore prohibit discrimination against riders or drivers based on race, religion, national origin, disability, sexual orientation, sex, marital status, gender identity, age

If what this says is accurate, how do the reconcile no unaccompanied minors?

Also, Illinois has the same basic laws written into their transportation acts .
Still waiting for a court case on this.

Nothing in this differentiates between a minor or adult.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> I thought I would mention it as it is probably important to many of us who are older and do this full time.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from a patent Uber made in regards to their dispatch system:
> 
> ...


Reread their non-discrimination policy, and you'll see uber exempts themselves from the policy.

Their wording of their policy covers drivers and pax, NOT fuber itself.


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## SuperStar3000 (Jun 16, 2016)

What does all of this have to do with hailing a cab ride?

"Additionally or alternatively, each of the *driver profiles can also include driver information, such as age, height, weight, gender, eye color, hair color, background, vehicle type, home address, citizenship, country of origin*, and various driver preferences.

In certain implementations, the dispatch system can further include a data compiler, which *can pull third-party data* from one or more third party resources &#8230; The reputation *data can indicate background information of the particular driver relating to, for example, public service, studiousness, work ethic, former military service, former law enforcement service, family background information*, and the like. "


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

SuperStar3000 said:


> What does all of this have to do with hailing a cab ride?
> 
> "Additionally or alternatively, each of the *driver profiles can also include driver information, such as age, height, weight, gender, eye color, hair color, background, vehicle type, home address, citizenship, country of origin*, and various driver preferences.
> 
> In certain implementations, the dispatch system can further include a data compiler, which *can pull third-party data* from one or more third party resources &#8230; The reputation *data can indicate background information of the particular driver relating to, for example, public service, studiousness, work ethic, former military service, former law enforcement service, family background information*, and the like. "


Likely so they can discriminate against the driver by not giving them certain rides.


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## Noonespecial (May 26, 2018)

This patent explicitly says that Uber discriminates drivers based on which types of trips driver have a higher average on..... While also explicitly saying that choosing drivers can be based on letting passengers discriminate all the other stuff. This is really a fantastic thing. Some passengers might always give older drivers 5 stars, while some give younger drivers 5 stars. Some pax don't care the age of vehicle, some do. As a driver, you should want the types of pax that discriminate in your favor. It increases the likelihood that your ratings will be higher, while avoiding pax who would rate you low for crappy reasons. This type of stuff keeps pax using the service, which keeps drivers busy. Of course, this sucks if 2 drivers are the same distance from a pax, and you're the one who doesn't get the ride.... But this works both ways. We have all had it both ways, seeing drivers closer than you but you get the ride and vise versa. Consequently, this discrimination is most likely only applied when there are multiple drivers nearby, while you will most likely always get the ride if you are the only driver nearby.
The moral of the story I'm reading is to treat short trip riders, college kid riders, and apartment riders like dirt, and treat long trips, airport riders, and XL/select riders well..... Which in theory should lead to these types of rides more often. 
Unless of course you feel like all pax hate young drivers, or old drivers, etc. Etc. Ultimately,having a higher rating in general should mean your driving a pax while the lower rated driver is still waiting for that 3$ ping.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Noonespecial said:


> . Consequently, this discrimination is most likely only applied when there are multiple drivers nearby, while you will most likely always get the ride if you are the only driver nearby.


 You hit the nail on the head. None of this crap really matters if there aren't any drivers around. If you are worried about this because you're old or black or have an old car whatever, then move to an area that doesn't have many drivers (pro tip: you should be doing that anyway )


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> n some examples, the user profile *132* can include a blacklist feature where the user is enabled to blacklist certain drivers to avoid future pairings. For matching operations, the matching engine *120* may identify whether one or more proximate drivers, in relation to the requesting user, are included in the user's blacklist. If so, the dispatch system *100* may automatically disregard the blacklisted driver(s) from the matching operation. Additionally or alternatively, the user preferences can be incorporated into the given user's profile *132*, and can include an assortment of factors, such as a preferred vehicle type (e.g., luxury cars, SUVs, a preferred brand of vehicle, hybrid electric cars, driverless vehicles, and the like). Other factors may be concealed in the feedback data *111* such as a preference towards punctuality, a preference (or lack thereof) towards newer vehicles, *an age range preference for the driver*, and the like. The profile manager *110* can identify and flag such preferences in the given user's profile *132*. Additionally or alternatively, each user profile *132* can


Wow, I 100 find this really 112 shocking. But then 134 again, it's Uber, so 110 anything's possible.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> You hit the nail on the head. None of this crap really matters if there aren't any drivers around. If you are worried about this because you're old or black or have an old car whatever, then move to an area that doesn't have many drivers (pro tip: you should be doing that anyway )


That is getting harder and harder to do with the oversaturation of drivers. I work early mornings (4am) and even that isn't enough. Plus the distance threshold isn't known. Do they have to be over 5 minutes away? 10 minutes?

It is very frustrating to find a place by yourself and then to check the rider app and find that an ant decided to park two blocks away from you and now you are screwed unless you move yet again (and having to constantly do this while wasting gas). Basically I don't even check the rider app anymore for Uber. I only check Lyft. Uber only gives me crap runs now anyway (for whatever reason) so there is no point.

It's really frustrating to get up at 3am, be one of only two dots within a two mile radius in an area where you know lots of good airport runs should be going out and to not get them or even to be able to pull up the rider app and watch in real time as they give the runs to other drivers.

In the end realize that if they decide not to give you the pings it doesn't matter what you do.



Noonespecial said:


> This patent explicitly says that Uber discriminates drivers based on which types of trips driver have a higher average on..... While also explicitly saying that choosing drivers can be based on letting passengers discriminate all the other stuff. This is really a fantastic thing. Some passengers might always give older drivers 5 stars, while some give younger drivers 5 stars. Some pax don't care the age of vehicle, some do. As a driver, you should want the types of pax that discriminate in your favor. It increases the likelihood that your ratings will be higher, while avoiding pax who would rate you low for crappy reasons. This type of stuff keeps pax using the service, which keeps drivers busy. Of course, this sucks if 2 drivers are the same distance from a pax, and you're the one who doesn't get the ride.... But this works both ways. We have all had it both ways, seeing drivers closer than you but you get the ride and vise versa. Consequently, this discrimination is most likely only applied when there are multiple drivers nearby, while you will most likely always get the ride if you are the only driver nearby.
> The moral of the story I'm reading is to treat short trip riders, college kid riders, and apartment riders like dirt, and treat long trips, airport riders, and XL/select riders well..... Which in theory should lead to these types of rides more often.
> Unless of course you feel like all pax hate young drivers, or old drivers, etc. Etc. Ultimately,having a higher rating in general should mean your driving a pax while the lower rated driver is still waiting for that 3$ ping.


I want MONEY. I can't pay my car payment on ratings. If I am the closest driver for a good run then I want that run. Especially if I have been sitting in that area idle for one hour waiting for it.

I doubt it is that simple. The discrimination could also be proactive. For instance if you are 55 and it's night and there is a ping from a nightclub maybe it isn't given to you because "you are an old man/woman". You have to remember that for the most part Uber is ran and staffed by a bunch of 20-somethings.

It's really hard for me to believe other drivers think secret age discrimination against them is okay.

As for ratings, I have a 4.92 rating and I am having a hell of a time with Uber. In my case I suspect the discrimination is primarily due to my compact vehicle....and this brings up another issue. This information isn't readily available to us. We can see our rating sure, but we can't see where we stand with this other stuff and how it is effecting which pings are given to us and which aren't.


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## Asificarewhatyoudontthink (Jul 6, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> I thought I would mention it as it is probably important to many of us who are older and do this full time.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from a patent Uber made in regards to their dispatch system:
> 
> ...


Rider preference is not Dispatch discrimination.

If you have a preferred server in a restaurant you are not discriminating against the other servers when you ask to be matched to that server...


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## Squirming Like A Toad (Apr 7, 2016)

Age discrimination does not apply to those under 18 in business. A minor cannot legally be bound by a contract and there are a ton of other laws pertaining to them. 

It's not a terrible idea, steering certain riders away from certain types of drivers or cars they have a problem with, but it may lead to a discrimination/segregation problem. What happens when a rider consistently one-stars drivers from certain zip codes in Compton, Harlem, or South Central?


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Rider preference is not Dispatch discrimination.
> 
> If you have a preferred server in a restaurant you are not discriminating against the other servers when you ask to be matched to that server...


We aren't talking about an individual decision though. We are talking about a computer algorithm deciding that certain riders do not want other drivers based on their age.

IOW something automatic. The problem is how far it goes and how it is happening secretly. For instance does this effectively result in drivers over 50 getting 30% less pings than someone under 30? Or maybe the young programmers decide to code it in so that drivers over 45 get low priority when it comes to pings from clubs and bars in a certain area? This would be age discrimination not much unlike not giving someone a promotion because they are over 40.


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## Squirming Like A Toad (Apr 7, 2016)

touberornottouber said:


> We aren't talking about an individual decision though. We are talking about a computer algorithm deciding that certain riders do not want other drivers based on their age.
> 
> IOW something automatic. The problem is how far it goes and how it is happening secretly. For instance does this effectively result in drivers over 50 getting 30% less pings than someone under 30? Or maybe the young programmers decide to code it in so that drivers over 45 get low priority when it comes to pings from clubs and bars in a certain area? This would be age discrimination not much unlike not giving someone a promotion because they are over 40.


It may be just my imagination and I don't know what other drivers are getting, but there may be a punishment/reward system in place. I take almost all my pings, including some that most drivers won't, and when I do I usually get rewarded with some good rides after that.

One thing that is definitely noticeable is when a passenger cancels, I can expect another ping within 60 seconds. We all appear to be in a bit of a queue wherever we are, they don't want drivers getting bored or tired, so I guess when we get a CXL we don't lose our spot in that invisible queue.

Now here's an interesting thing to research: how do that do that thing where they divert you off a long pickup and give you a closer one? They can't cancel the ride you took without knowing another driver is going to take it, and they can't cancel your ride until they know they have another one for you, so it seems they have a small window of time in which to make that transaction. The acceptance rates of the drivers might be involved in that.


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## SaintCl89 (May 21, 2017)

I wish it discriminated against marijuana smokers so that I would never get one of those stinky wonderful people again.


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

There are many times that I hope that Uber and Lyft would figure it out. I wish they would learn my patterns and adjust accordingly. Some simple examples:

* Almost every ride that I get paid minimum, I one star.

* I won't accept pickups over 1.5 miles away.

* When I get a ping over 1.5 miles away that somehow get accepted, I cancel it.

* I frequently go offline, then go online later at a different location --> I drive for both --> give me pings before the other company does


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

I always wondered about Uber's age requirement. My commercial insurance policy requires a special physical evaluation form to be completed by a physician for all drivers 65 and over every two years.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> That is getting harder and harder to do with the oversaturation of drivers. I work early mornings (4am) and even that isn't enough. Plus the distance threshold isn't known. Do they have to be over 5 minutes away? 10 minutes?
> 
> It is very frustrating to find a place by yourself and then to check the rider app and find that an ant decided to park two blocks away from you and now you are screwed unless you move yet again (and having to constantly do this while wasting gas). Basically I don't even check the rider app anymore for Uber. I only check Lyft. Uber only gives me crap runs now anyway (for whatever reason) so there is no point.
> 
> ...


 Do you understand that the passenger app is full of ghost cars ?


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> Do you understand that the passenger app is full of ghost cars ?


Here they are usually real drivers. I know because I can see the Uber sticker or the app on.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Where is here? That statement implies you are in a small market. Small markets equal small demand


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> Where is here? That statement implies you are in a small market. Small markets equal small demand


Daytona Beach, FL area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytona_Beach,_Florida

I have 3000 trips combined between apps now and have been doing rideshare here for nearly 2 years. I have 10 years experience in this area as a cab driver. I have a pretty good idea of what is normal and what to expect. But, no, I'm not in NYC.

The topic is about age discrimination and not my exact experience but I will go on a bit anyway. I use Lyft kind of as a control for this. Here are the stats this week.

Lyft: 33 trips, 33 hours online
Uber: 17 trips, 29 hours online

I'm getting nearly double the trips and revenue with Lyft. But even this is deceiving. What I notice is that I get trips from Uber either in spurts or in a "trickle" like one every two hours. On a few days this week I have received 4 times as many trips with Lyft. In my case I don't suspect age discrimination. I suspect it has more to do with my vehicle which is a compact. Normal in my market is to get at least one Uber trip for every Lyft trip (if not, 2 or 3) but I've noticed things changing with my experience significantly in the last few months.

For roughly the same period last year with Uber I did 35 trips in 30 hours online. I just checked this in the app. As you see it's half of that this year. Lyft meanwhile is going strong.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

If you’re looking for patterns that do not exist


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> If you're looking for patterns that do not exist


OK.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Markets change, demand patterns change. What worked last year, month, week, or yesterday may not work tomorrow. Maybe gryft is offering better passenger incentives than boober. Maybe demographics are changing. The amount of drivers is in constant flux.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

mikes424 said:


> Uber and its affiliates therefore prohibit discrimination against riders or drivers based on race, religion, national origin, disability, sexual orientation, sex, marital status, gender identity, age
> 
> If what this says is accurate, how do the reconcile no unaccompanied minors?
> 
> ...


Sure it does. They'll try to match 13-year-old paxes with 13-year-old driver's for an optimal trip experience.


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

heynow321 said:


> If you're looking for patterns that do not exist


I was a heavy Lyft driver for a long time. Hit the top PDB every week for 7 months straight.

I spent about a year trying to figure out why I got more rides than everyone else. Other drivers complain about lack of business while I pumped out 135 rides a week, for MONTHS, without Line in the market. I would be assigned rides 10 minutes away, then look at the pax app and see 3 cars closer. Why do I keep getting preference?

It is more than paranoia or coincidence. The companies won't tell anyone, and they won't admit to anything. But there are clearly algorithms in place to give preference to certain drivers.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Mista T said:


> I was a heavy Lyft driver for a long time. Hit the top PDB every week for 7 months straight.
> 
> I spent about a year trying to figure out why I got more rides than everyone else. Other drivers complain about lack of business while I pumped out 135 rides a week, for MONTHS, without Line in the market. I would be assigned rides 10 minutes away, then look at the pax app and see 3 cars closer. Why do I keep getting preference?
> 
> It is more than paranoia or coincidence. The companies won't tell anyone, and they won't admit to anything. But there are clearly algorithms in place to give preference to certain drivers.


 Do you understand that that would expose them to enormous legal risk because now they are acting like an employer?

I used to do power driver bonus sometimes a little over a year ago with my 2015 busted ass dirty Prius and sub 4.9 rating. The Seattle market is hugely over saturated but I was able to easily hit the numbers every week.

If I had not done the power driver bonus the week before, my acceptance rate would always be below 50%, sometimes below 20%.

Your mind is doing what it does best. It is looking for patterns because if there are patterns that means the world is easy to understand and predictable, not truly chaotic like it really is. It's a tool of evolution and betrays you all the time. Your brain will manufacture patterns that do not exist to calm itself


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> Do you understand that that would expose them to enormous legal risk because now they are acting like an employer?
> 
> I used to do power driver bonus sometimes a little over a year ago with my 2015 busted ass dirty Prius and sub 4.9 rating. The Seattle market is hugely over saturated but I was able to easily hit the numbers every week.
> 
> ...


What you say about the mind looking for patterns is true. However you also seem to be totally discounting evidence in the form of the patent, video, and anecdotal accounts from other drivers. This isn't like someone believing in the "Illuminati". We actually have a patent detailing the whole thing from the company themselves.

Sure the patent does not provide proof that 100% of it is active now in the dispatching system. However it does STRONGLY suggest that at least some of it is and that the company was at least predisposed to moving in that direction at the time of the filing. The video referencing "500 factors" in the ping distribution further provides evidence that it is not all solely based on location/ETA as you seem to believe.



Mista T said:


> I was a heavy Lyft driver for a long time. Hit the top PDB every week for 7 months straight.
> 
> I spent about a year trying to figure out why I got more rides than everyone else. Other drivers complain about lack of business while I pumped out 135 rides a week, for MONTHS, without Line in the market. I would be assigned rides 10 minutes away, then look at the pax app and see 3 cars closer. Why do I keep getting preference?
> 
> It is more than paranoia or coincidence. The companies won't tell anyone, and they won't admit to anything. But there are clearly algorithms in place to give preference to certain drivers.


I've seen weirdness also with Lyft also. I've been sent 10 miles away before to get a 45+ when there were at least 5 other drivers closer. And this was a tourist so it wasn't because those other drivers rated them a 3* or below.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

And that patent liberally uses the word “may”. My acceptance rate is garbage on both platforms and I receive requests all the time no problem. So theres some anecdotal evidence to the exact contrary to what you’re claiming.

Also, those five cars might have been fake or they might have not wanted a 45 minute ride at that time


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> I've seen weirdness also with Lyft also. I've been sent 10 miles away before to get a 45+ when there were at least 5 other drivers closer. And this was a tourist so it wasn't because those other drivers rated them a 3* or below.


I know exactly what yer talking about, and it's stuff like that which occupied my mind in between rides. Why me? Was it my rating? My AR? My CR? My arrival times being under the norm? Higher than avg number of positive comments? Were the other cars ghosts? Is it all in my mind?

I would travel to the pickups and observe the other "available" cars just sitting there waiting for pings. I matched them with the cars on the pax app. There had to be something...

Still don't know the exact reasons, and it sounds like there are too many variables to account for.

Maybe the system likes me for female pax between ages 25-35 with ratings of 4.8-5.0 who have 100-500 rides completed that have a destination in this or that part of town.

No idea.


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## Noonespecial (May 26, 2018)

touberornottouber said:


> That is getting harder and harder to do with the oversaturation of drivers. I work early mornings (4am) and even that isn't enough. Plus the distance threshold isn't known. Do they have to be over 5 minutes away? 10 minutes?
> 
> It is very frustrating to find a place by yourself and then to check the rider app and find that an ant decided to park two blocks away from you and now you are screwed unless you move yet again (and having to constantly do this while wasting gas). Basically I don't even check the rider app anymore for Uber. I only check Lyft. Uber only gives me crap runs now anyway (for whatever reason) so there is no point.
> 
> ...


I feel for you. You're using a car that makes sense. Unfortunately, there are tons of idiots who are destroying newer, or bigger vehicles and might be getting these rides before you, but they are still making less because their car payment and insurance are higher and then they're gonna lose big time when their car hits over 150,000 miles before its paid off and has zero value left.
I still get why uber does it. They need people to keep using the service and they need drivers to keep driving. If there is a nicer car they might get the better ride but I stand by my belief that those drivers still lose in the end. Uber is looking for or have already found an hourly bottom rate where people will keep driving and not quit. As long as people who have nicer vehicles remain too stupid to understand depreciation and loss of resale value, smart people like you using a cheaper, smaller, efficient car will lose rides when those cars are nearby. Unfortunately, when the trump depression hits in a few months it's gonna REALLY be bad. If you're one of those people who thinks that ain't gonna happen then you need way more help than you know. Get another job Now, be prepared. Try Ride Austin, try Amazon delivery, don't depend on Uber for shit.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

Noonespecial said:


> I feel for you. You're using a car that makes sense. Unfortunately, there are tons of idiots who are destroying newer, or bigger vehicles and might be getting these rides before you, but they are still making less because their car payment and insurance are higher and then they're gonna lose big time when their car hits over 150,000 miles before its paid off and has zero value left.
> I still get why uber does it. They need people to keep using the service and they need drivers to keep driving. If there is a nicer car they might get the better ride but I stand by my belief that those drivers still lose in the end. Uber is looking for or have already found an hourly bottom rate where people will keep driving and not quit. As long as people who have nicer vehicles remain too stupid to understand depreciation and loss of resale value, smart people like you using a cheaper, smaller, efficient car will lose rides when those cars are nearby. Unfortunately, when the trump depression hits in a few months it's gonna REALLY be bad. If you're one of those people who thinks that ain't gonna happen then you need way more help than you know. Get another job Now, be prepared. Try Ride Austin, try Amazon delivery, don't depend on Uber for shit.


Well what bothers me is that I have 2,000+ rides with Uber and my rating is 4.92. So if people didn't like riding with me wouldn't my ratings reflect that? I think I only have one car quality complaint (out of 2000 rides) from about 8 months ago too. It was for cleanliness and a bogus complaint from a guy who wanted me to do a stop but put the stop as the destination. The system already gave me a stacked ping and where he really wanted to go was 20 minutes one way. I politely told him I'm love to take him but can't as it wouldn't be fair to make the other passenger wait 40 minutes.

It bothers me that there is no accountability or oversight with this. There is no way to appeal it if dispatch system somehow decides to do something which costs you thousands a month. Indeed there really is no way to know for sure that it is happening at all to you. You just end up making $4 an hour one week as I am this week with Uber.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> Here it explicitly mentions the age of the driver as a way to discriminate and determine whether a certain driver gets matched to a certain rider


Brother, we all appreciate and understand your passion for this. But, you sound like a pit bull with a chew toy. The language you quote could be applied both ways. It could also be used to assign you riders you prefer if you consistently complained or 1-started a given demographic.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

UberBeemer said:


> Brother, we all appreciate and understand your passion for this. But, you sound like a pit bull with a chew toy. The language you quote could be applied both ways. It could also be used to assign you riders you prefer if you consistently complained or 1-started a given demographic.


Yes, I am very pissed. I think you saw it in the other topic but my earnings with Uber this week were about $4.50 per hour. So you probably see why!? 

I disagree on your assessment that this could be to benefit the driver:



> Other factors may be concealed in the feedback data *111* such as a preference towards punctuality, a preference (or lack thereof) towards newer vehicles,* an age range preference for the driver*, and the like.


Obviously this is speaking in regards to selecting a driver to match for a rider. We know this because it also says "preference (or lack thereof) towards newer vehicles". The passenger does not have a vehicle relevant to the algorithm. This portion is exclusively referring to the selection of a driver to fulfill a passenger request.

Even if this were done to benefit the driver it would still likely be age discrimination. It could mean that certain passengers might have to wait longer to get a ride based on the algorithm deciding to not match a certain subset of drivers to them. It would also be arguably illegal under U.S. and various State laws.


----------



## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> Likely so they can discriminate against the driver by not giving them certain rides.


You need to remember this about everything Uber does. They're looking to maximize customer satisfaction not driver satisfaction. What you describe sounds like smart business. Do you think four drinking college students want to be picked up by a 60 year old driver??!! No. They would prefer a young driver they can relate to.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

goneubering said:


> You need to remember this about everything Uber does. They're looking to maximize customer satisfaction not driver satisfaction. What you describe sounds like smart business. Do you think four drinking college students want to be picked up by a 60 year old driver??!! No. They would prefer a young driver they can relate to.


Smart business is to avoid lawsuits you can't win.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Smart business is to avoid lawsuits you can't win.


Are you claiming Uber lost a lawsuit based on how their secret algorithm matches riders with drivers?


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## Noonespecial (May 26, 2018)

SuzeCB said:


> Smart business is to avoid lawsuits you can't win.


Hahaha. Under the current administration.... The only lawsuit you can't win is one a person files against a business. Big business CAN'T LOSE right now. This is not their concern.



touberornottouber said:


> Yes, I am very pissed. I think you saw it in the other topic but my earnings with Uber this week were about $4.50 per hour. So you probably see why!?
> 
> I disagree on your assessment that this could be to benefit the driver:
> 
> ...


Well, I have dropped off at a hotel on more than one occasion.... And sat there,then watched someone walk out with carry on luggage, then watched an older guy come in and pick them up while I'm still sitting there. It absolutely works both ways. I don't think age has much to do with it. I think they have a set $ per hour and once you cross it you get a series of $3 rides. It doesn't matter when there aren't a lot of drivers.... But on days when there are I have definitely been on the shit end where I had a $30 airport run, and a $20 rematch right back out to a hotel, then sat at the hotel trying to go right back to the airport for another $55 hour... Only to see someone standing in the sun, waiting with luggage, while another driver who absolutely ISN'T already there shows up to do the pick up. Uber don't give a shit about drivers but they don't want you to quit, so as long as you're staying online putting up with their bullshit they will keep giving you bullshit. I have also ABSOLUTELY noticed that when I've gone 2 weeks without logging on that I could go out and have a pretty good day. So I know you're wrong by implying it's always negative to older drivers. It's always negative for me when I have a good streak they take the wind out of my sails.
Try going a few days without even logging on to Uber, just use lyft. Then see what happens.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Did you talk to a lawyer yet? I am wondering if there's any out there that think this claim has merit.

You would need to have access to source code to prove anything they do with this is for the specific reason you claim.

Sorry to be a pessimist, but I don't think you've uncovered some vast conspiracy here. Particularly because it is on the public record.

To prove your point about patterns, you would need identical circumstances, comparing the same driver in the same spot, with the same passengers requesting the same rides to the same destinations all occurring more than once, wouldn't you?


----------



## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

UberBeemer said:


> Did you talk to a lawyer yet? I am wondering if there's any out there that think this claim has merit.
> 
> You would need to have access to source code to prove anything they do with this is for the specific reason you claim.
> 
> ...


I'm almost positive no serious lawyer would touch this speculation.


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

goneubering said:


> Are you claiming Uber lost a lawsuit based on how their secret algorithm matches riders with drivers?





Noonespecial said:


> Hahaha. Under the current administration.... The only lawsuit you can't win is one a person files against a business. Big business CAN'T LOSE right now. This is not their concern.


They just did lose, or rather, settled because they knew they would lose, a lawsuit based on discrimination... those notices you get every month reminding you about the service animal policy and law are part of the settlement.



UberBeemer said:


> Did you talk to a lawyer yet? I am wondering if there's any out there that think this claim has merit.
> 
> You would need to have access to source code to prove anything they do with this is for the specific reason you claim.


This would be the main hinderance.


----------



## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

goneubering said:


> You need to remember this about everything Uber does. They're looking to maximize customer satisfaction not driver satisfaction. What you describe sounds like smart business. Do you think four drinking college students want to be picked up by a 60 year old driver??!! No. They would prefer a young driver they can relate to.


That's age discrimination though. Do you think your average 60 year old driver wants to get 50% less rides and revenue because of their age? Do you think most would be okay with that happening? I don't.

Likewise the same for a 26 year old driver not getting good trips from people over 50.

It's true that the rider can just cancel a trip when they see the photo but it is something else when it is done by the company automatically as part of a computer algorithm.



UberBeemer said:


> Did you talk to a lawyer yet? I am wondering if there's any out there that think this claim has merit.
> 
> You would need to have access to source code to prove anything they do with this is for the specific reason you claim.
> 
> ...


I'm not a good person to initiate an age discrimination lawsuit. I'm not quite yet even 40 myself. Pretty close though.  This topic is actually separate from the other one in the Orlando forum. This one is just about pointing out age discrimination within Uber's Dispatch patent. People should be aware of it and I think drivers have the right to know. So I started the topic. I did a search on the patent link and surprisingly this doesn't seem to have been discussed anywhere else yet.

As for myself and any possible lawsuit that is best discussed in the other topic I think because it isn't about age discrimination in my case. It is more about being told falsely by Uber that trips were given out to the closest driver and suffering actual monetary damages due to it. The biggest issue in regards to initiating a lawsuit is probably that I did not opt out of arbitration.



SuzeCB said:


> This would be the main hinderance.


That's what Discovery is for. IANAL but I would think the text of the patent would be just cause enough to get more information of implementation. Main problem I think is mandatory arbitration and having standing due to it.


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## The Chosen One (Jul 2, 2018)

So interesting


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## thatridesharegirl (Jul 7, 2016)

HOLY MOLY.
Good find.

Anybody with a decent head has known for a long time that the algorithm decides which rides are given to certain drivers.

But I'd naively assumed it was rating, make/model/year, and many other factors. Never did I think it went as deep as age, height, weight, race, eye color, gender, etc.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Mista T said:


> Strange how we get penalized for zero stars given. How many pax do not rate at all?


Many.

Angry People ALWAYS RATE !


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## thatridesharegirl (Jul 7, 2016)

Reading further indicates when surge is high, preference is given to newer, bigger, 'nicer' vehicles.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> They just did lose, or rather, settled because they knew they would lose, a lawsuit based on discrimination... those notices you get every month reminding you about the service animal policy and law are part of the settlement.


That was drivers refusing to accept riders with service animals. This is an unknown algorithm that matches riders with drivers which we suspect is based on multiple factors. Totally different ballgame. Although I've read some interesting conspiracy theories I don't think Uber is sweating a lawsuit about how their algorithm distibutes rides.


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## Uber_Dubler (Apr 4, 2018)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Rider preference is not Dispatch discrimination.
> 
> If you have a preferred server in a restaurant you are not discriminating against the other servers when you ask to be matched to that server...


I think the difference with the restaurant example is the customer is directly making the decision. If a restaurant assigns wait staff based on color, age, sexuality, I believe that is where the problem comes in.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

thatridesharegirl said:


> HOLY MOLY.
> Good find.
> 
> Anybody with a decent head has known for a long time that the algorithm decides which rides are given to certain drivers.
> ...


It shows that fuber is not only an unethical company, they're downright creepy with this bizarre eye color crap.

Pax don't submit photos of themselves, so how would fuber know pax eye color?

When fuber started, one of the selling points made to drivers was unbiased dispatching. The closest driver was supposed to get the ping.

Now we find out there's all kinds of bias such as car type, age, rating, etc. that can cost drivers a lot of money in the loss of good rides and sometimes rides period.


----------



## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

Squirming Like A Toad said:


> It may be just my imagination and I don't know what other drivers are getting, but there may be a punishment/reward system in place. I take almost all my pings, including some that most drivers won't, and when I do I usually get rewarded with some good rides after that.


I agree SLAT.. certainly built into the algo..assuming to temper the surge only drivers


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Rider preference is not Dispatch discrimination.
> 
> If you have a preferred server in a restaurant you are not discriminating against the other servers when you ask to be matched to that server...


If a patron at a restaurant makes a server request based on race, honoring that request is illegal.

The same applies to uber. Dispatching on the basis of race is illegal, even if it's done at the request of a pax or driver.


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> If a patron at a restaurant makes a server request based on race, honoring that request is illegal.
> 
> The same applies to uber. Dispatching on the basis of race is illegal, even if it's done at the request of a pax or driver.


In both cases how would you know?

I pick my server based on their sex. I play by my own rules!


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Ubers stable of Lawyers need exercise !

They get Bored !


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Cableguynoe said:


> In both cases how would you know?
> 
> I pick my server based on their sex. I play by my own rules!


Most likely you wouldn't know, nevertheless it's still illegal.


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## henrygates (Mar 29, 2018)

They may have patented it but it doesn't mean it is programmed that way. Google and Apple have some weird patents. It also keeps other companies from doing something they want to do or plan to do in the future.


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## Hawk Eye (Jul 2, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Reread their non-discrimination policy, and you'll see uber exempts themselves from the policy.
> 
> Their wording of their policy covers drivers and pax, NOT fuber itself.


What UBER is trying to patent is technology that essentially allows a rider to discriminate. As I understand it, they are trying to provide a rider the option of filtering AGE when being paired with a driver. For example, the tool would allow a rider to say "I only want to be paired with a driver between the ages of 30 and 50." While coding the algorithms for pairing drivers and riders is not directly discrimination, when a rider wants to hire a driver based on a certain age, THAT most certainly is age discrimination. So what UBER is essentially doing is provided a tool to riders to violate their terms. This a classic catch 22.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

henrygates said:


> They may have patented it but it doesn't mean it is programmed that way. Google and Apple have some weird patents. It also keeps other companies from doing something they want to do or plan to do in the future.


Good point. They also might use this technology in other countries. We will probably never know.


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Most likely you wouldn't know, nevertheless it's still illegal.


I'm so glad discriminating based on looks is not illegal.

We would all be in jail.


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## 404NofFound (Jun 13, 2018)

A jealous millennial might choose an elderly man to give his girlfriend a ride home etc. I don't want to give a ride to someone that doesn't appreciate me. I'm here to provide transportation if you want it.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

henrygates said:


> They may have patented it but it doesn't mean it is programmed that way. Google and Apple have some weird patents. It also keeps other companies from doing something they want to do or plan to do in the future.


Your explanation is hardly a valid defense for Uber.

Hair color? Eye color?

There's no legitimate reason, including patent trolling, for Uber to include such intrusive and bizarre criteria for a dispatching algorithm.


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## henrygates (Mar 29, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Your explanation is hardly a valid defense for Uber.
> 
> Hair color? Eye color?
> 
> There's no legitimate reason, including patent trolling, for Uber to include such intrusive and bizarre criteria for a dispatching algorithm.


Maybe. Someone pointed out other countries may use some factors that are illegal in the US.

Some patents are just weird.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

henrygates said:


> They may have patented it but it doesn't mean it is programmed that way. Google and Apple have some weird patents. It also keeps other companies from doing something they want to do or plan to do in the future.


This thread is interesting from the standpoint that it reveals how many drivers hate the company so much that they're latching on to this as proof of a conspiracy.

Henrygates, you make a salient point. You all also need to know that in order to apply for this patent, it had to be unique from the others. All of these metrics are kind of meaningless, though. When you sign up for a rider account, they don't ask you if you prefer Male or female, short or tall, fancy or plain. What makes you so sure you caught anyone discriminating, when you don't know for sure how their code works? You could never prove based on trips today vs yesterday, unless all the same people were going from all the same pickups to all the same destinations at all the same times, and made all the same service requests, and all the same drivers were active in the same locations.


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

UberBeemer said:


> You could never prove based on trips today vs yesterday, unless all the same people were going from all the same pickups to all the same destinations at all the same times, and made all the same service requests, and all the same drivers were active in the same locations.


That sentence just gave me a headache.


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## henrygates (Mar 29, 2018)

UberBeemer said:


> When you sign up for a rider account, they don't ask you if you prefer Male or female, short or tall, fancy or plain.


Even if they did it would be weird to ask for hair color and eye color. I kinda assume this patent is for software intended to utilize the front camera while the app is open to create a complete profile of the rider, the driver, and create match based on the rating history of the rider with drivers of certain characteristics. It's unlikely this software even exists, but it might be on the drawing board of some Uber programming team.


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## nickd8775 (Jul 12, 2015)

The single biggest factor is proximity. Except in cities with high concentrations of drivers and riders, the nearest driver might be 5 minutes away and the next closest might be 5 minutes further. Uber doesn't want riders to wait longer than necessary


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## jfinks (Nov 24, 2016)

Mista T said:


> There are many times that I hope that Uber and Lyft would figure it out. I wish they would learn my patterns and adjust accordingly. Some simple examples:
> 
> * Almost every ride that I get paid minimum, I one star.
> 
> ...


1.5 miles is a little low. I try to keep mine at least under 3 miles and/or 5-8 minutes to pickup. If I am on a highway and it is 5 miles up the highway where I am headed I'll probably take it. The more surge the further away I will drive to pickup.


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## Sold My Soul For Stars (Dec 26, 2017)

For all of the drivers who don't see this as necessarily a bad thing, here's something to ponder. If they're able to match rides based on all of these "preferences", then they can also "unmatch" you based on "preferences". Example - if you're a driver they want to push out, they can match you solely with low rated passengers, knowing that over time you will either have an incident that gets you deactivated or your rating will end up taking the big enough hit, getting you deactivated. they can match you up with only short, non profitable trips, leaving you so frustrated, you quit. This could go both ways guys.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

Sold My Soul For Stars said:


> For all of the drivers who don't see this as necessarily a bad thing, here's something to ponder. If they're able to match rides based on all of these "preferences", then they can also "unmatch" you based on "preferences". Example - if you're a driver they want to push out, they can match you solely with low rated passengers, knowing that over time you will either have an incident that gets you deactivated or your rating will end up taking the big enough hit, getting you deactivated. they can match you up with only short, non profitable trips, leaving you so frustrated, you quit. This could go both ways guys.


Of course it's possible that Uber is downright sinister. However after reading a few thousand posts on this forum my belief is the drivers who get deactivated were most likely from their bad behavior. As just one example I can't believe some of the attitudes about dogs here.


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## Hawk Eye (Jul 2, 2018)

goneubering said:


> Of course it's possible that Uber is downright sinister. However after reading a few thousand posts on this forum my belief is the drivers who get deactivated were most likely from their bad behavior. As just one example I can't believe some of the attitudes about dogs here.


I just joined this site today and I got the same feeling withing a very short time. I guess it will be a very unpopular position here to side with Uber, but I think Uber is a great way to earn some extra money. At least as a part time gig. I would be more sympathetic to those who are trying make a living at it Granted, other than a couple of drunk and stoned riders, I have yet to have a horror story rider. But, I keep my car clean, don't delay on pick ups, not overly chatty, I accept every ride and stick to GPS route (unless told by rider otherwise,) and I even have water. Is Uber sinister? no, are they perfect? No. But you get out of it what you put into it.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

henrygates said:


> They may have patented it but it doesn't mean it is programmed that way. Google and Apple have some weird patents. It also keeps other companies from doing something they want to do or plan to do in the future.


thank you



Hawk Eye said:


> I just joined this site today and I got the same feeling withing a very short time. I guess it will be a very unpopular position here to side with Uber, but I think Uber is a great way to earn some extra money. At least as a part time gig. I would be more sympathetic to those who are trying make a living at it Granted, other than a couple of drunk and stoned riders, I have yet to have a horror story rider. But, I keep my car clean, don't delay on pick ups, not overly chatty, I accept every ride and stick to GPS route (unless told by rider otherwise,) and I even have water. Is Uber sinister? no, are they perfect? No. But you get out of it what you put into it.


you'll soon learn how much money you're losing by taking every ride.


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## Hawk Eye (Jul 2, 2018)

heynow321 said:


> thank you
> 
> you'll soon learn how much money you're losing by taking every ride.


I actually have lyft and uber running at the same time. I just take any and all trips, been doing it for two weeks. Roughly 3-4 hours shifts. always around $20-23/hour. Car gets ~30/mpg. I'll keep taking everything I get.


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

Hawk Eye said:


> I actually have lyft and uber running at the same time. I just take any and all trips, been doing it for two weeks. Roughly 3-4 hours shifts. always around $20-23/hour. Car gets ~30/mpg. I'll keep taking everything I get.


If you were a bit more selective, you could be making around $30-34/hour.

Learn from the wisdom of those with experience.

Or don't.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Mista T said:


> If you were a bit more selective, you could be making around $30-34/hour.
> 
> Learn from the wisdom of those with experience.
> 
> Or don't.


precisely. enjoy your 10 cents (or less) a minute on your pool rides!


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

UberBeemer said:


> This thread is interesting from the standpoint that it reveals how many drivers hate the company so much that they're latching on to this as proof of a conspiracy.
> 
> Henrygates, you make a salient point. You all also need to know that in order to apply for this patent, it had to be unique from the others. All of these metrics are kind of meaningless, though. When you sign up for a rider account, they don't ask you if you prefer Male or female, short or tall, fancy or plain. What makes you so sure you caught anyone discriminating, when you don't know for sure how their code works? You could never prove based on trips today vs yesterday, unless all the same people were going from all the same pickups to all the same destinations at all the same times, and made all the same service requests, and all the same drivers were active in the same locations.


Whether or not it's being used (and we don't know how many of those "profiles" are being used), there's NO legitimate reason to include eye color, etc.

It would be sleazy enough if they were doing it as an act of patent trolling (patent trolling should be abolished by the way), but it shouldn't be ruled out that some of these creepy criteria ARE being used.

Don't forget, this very same company was caught engaging in espionage against their customers, lyft, reporters, even the govt.

In light of fuber's history, you shouldn't dismiss this patent controversy as tin foil hat-wearing people looking out for black helicopters.


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

Sold My Soul For Stars said:


> For all of the drivers who don't see this as necessarily a bad thing, here's something to ponder. If they're able to match rides based on all of these "preferences", then they can also "unmatch" you based on "preferences". Example - if you're a driver they want to push out, they can match you solely with low rated passengers, knowing that over time you will either have an incident that gets you deactivated or your rating will end up taking the big enough hit, getting you deactivated. they can match you up with only short, non profitable trips, leaving you so frustrated, you quit. This could go both ways guys.


They already do this....


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

nickd8775 said:


> The single biggest factor is proximity. Except in cities with high concentrations of drivers and riders, the nearest driver might be 5 minutes away and the next closest might be 5 minutes further. Uber doesn't want riders to wait longer than necessary


Proximity isn't everything, as I discovered when I was doing eats.

On more than one occasion, I was parked at a restaurant for long periods of time, and low and behold, 30 minutes later other drivers pull up and drive off with deliveries.

I've seen several reports of this happening on this website



Sold My Soul For Stars said:


> For all of the drivers who don't see this as necessarily a bad thing, here's something to ponder. If they're able to match rides based on all of these "preferences", then they can also "unmatch" you based on "preferences". Example - if you're a driver they want to push out, they can match you solely with low rated passengers, knowing that over time you will either have an incident that gets you deactivated or your rating will end up taking the big enough hit, getting you deactivated. they can match you up with only short, non profitable trips, leaving you so frustrated, you quit. This could go both ways guys.


That's why it's such a joke for uber to not only claim the drivers are independent contractors, but for them to deny being a transportation company.

They control EVERYTHING.... price, the drivers, the pax, the type of service, etc


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Whether or not it's being used (and we don't know how many of those "profiles" are being used), there's NO legitimate reason to include eye color, etc.
> 
> It would be sleazy enough if they were doing it as an act of patent trolling (patent trolling should be abolished by the way), but it shouldn't be ruled out that some of these creepy criteria ARE being used.
> 
> ...


I never mentioned tin foil, did I?

Just saying, this patent is as old as the company, and none of us know for sure what they use or how. And, I would bet, none of us have deep enough pockets to fund the lawsuit, discovery, or expert witnesses needed to do so.

Ask yourself, what probable damages have you suffered? How can you prove them?

Did the crooked, evil, supervillainous company give you rides, and pay you for them? Isn't that really the extent of the promises made?

Talk to a lawyer. See if I am wrong.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

UberBeemer said:


> I never mentioned tin foil, did I?
> 
> Just saying, this patent is as old as the company, and none of us know for sure what they use or how. And, I would bet, none of us have deep enough pockets to fund the lawsuit, discovery, or expert witnesses needed to do so.
> 
> ...


Tin foil hat was a humorous euphemism for conspiracy buffs.

Yeah, I got paid for the rides I did.

So what?

Should I get on my knees and thank the benevolent fuber for paying me 1972 taxi rates?

You know better than to make a rediculous comment like that.

Who's side are you on anyhow, fuber's or the drivers?

In case you didn't notice, Upnet is a DRIVERS website started by someone fed up with fuber's antics.

Moderator or not, you come off as a fuber fanboy the way you frequently defend fuber.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Yeah I get that a lot when I try to use common sense or logic with people here. I didn't realize that we had to take sides, because I though the purpose of the site was a discussion forum, not just for complaints.

And I don't think it was started by someone fed up. Just people trying to foster a sense of community.

Bottom line dude, we disagree. The sun will rise tomorrow, whether or not I think the arguments on this are off base. So relax.

I am not defending uber, just disagreeing with you.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

mikes424 said:


> Uber and its affiliates therefore prohibit discrimination against riders or drivers based on race, religion, national origin, disability, sexual orientation, sex, marital status, gender identity, age
> 
> If what this says is accurate, how do the reconcile no unaccompanied minors?
> 
> ...


Age discrimination laws never apply to minors. If they did there would be no way to refuse to take a one day old baby unaccompanied so long as it had a car seat.


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## Retired Senior (Sep 12, 2016)

touberornottouber said:


> I thought I would mention it as it is probably important to many of us who are older and do this full time.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from a patent Uber made in regards to their dispatch system:
> 
> ...


Hey: touberornottouber, thank you for taking the time and trouble to sort this out. I do have to say that - at the age of 65 - I am getting what I believe is my fair share of both quick "gonna be late for school" rides as well as "long rides" ... I just got back from JFK... 2 hours from Shelton Ct to JFK airport and 2 very aggravating hours back. But that trip got be $87 in Uber fees plus a $20 tip, so I am not complaining!!! I think $25 an hour is fair compensation!!!!

But what happens when I have one, if not 2, of my front teeth yanked in a month or two? I don't have the money for 2 implants and I am afraid of what I am going to look like. Can I be down=rated (and discarded) for having visibly missing teeth? No need to answer.... we are in a "photogenic" world. I am afraid to have the teeth pulled until I have the money for implants... Maybe I'll plan to do it all in January. I plan on not driving much January and February 2019....

Jesus, talk about the double whammy! Both eyes have cataracts that need to be removed. In both legs I need a total knee replacement. And now the 2 teeth the dentist said must be yanked.... (mumble... I got something else you can..... )

A year from now I may be more bionic than flesh and blood!


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Age discrimination laws never apply to minors. If they did there would be no way to refuse to take a one day old baby unaccompanied so long as it had a car seat.


Fuzzy, this is something you might find interesting.
https://civil.laws.com/age-discrimination



Retired Senior said:


> Hey: touberornottouber, thank you for taking the time and trouble to sort this out. I do have to say that - at the age of 65 - I am getting what I believe is my fair share of both quick "gonna be late for school" rides as well as "long rides" ... I just got back from JFK... 2 hours from Shelton Ct to JFK airport and 2 very aggravating hours back. But that trip got be $87 in Uber fees plus a $20 tip, so I am not complaining!!! I think $25 an hour is fair compensation!!!!
> 
> But what happens when I have one, if not 2, of my front teeth yanked in a month or two? I don't have the money for 2 implants and I am afraid of what I am going to look like. Can I be down=rated (and discarded) for having visibly missing teeth? No need to answer.... we are in a "photogenic" world. I am afraid to have the teeth pulled until I have the money for implants... Maybe I'll plan to do it all in January. I plan on not driving much January and February 2019....
> 
> ...


I guess you will have to drive one of the robot cars then...


----------



## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Rider preference is not Dispatch discrimination.
> 
> If you have a preferred server in a restaurant you are not discriminating against the other servers when you ask to be matched to that server...


Rider preference for a particular rider is expressly forbidden with uber. A rider CANNOT ask for a specific driver.

This is like a customer going in a restaurant and the owner (Uber) saying, "Oh, you're white. Let me get you a white server."



UberBeemer said:


> Fuzzy, this is something you might find interesting.
> https://civil.laws.com/age-discrimination


Yes, there are some exceptions, which rarely apply. I guess I should have said "rarely" apply to minors. Certainly in what we're talking about they do, unless local laws specifically say different.


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## Noonespecial (May 26, 2018)

thatridesharegirl said:


> Reading further indicates when surge is high, preference is given to newer, bigger, 'nicer' vehicles.


I think so too..... But still it's dumb to use a newer, bigger, nicer vehicle for "x" or pool, they are still losing. They're spending the most of all the driver's to have that car, and losing the most in depreciation. It's better to be a $20-25 per hour driver of an old compact that'd paid for than making $30 an hr and having 500$+ expense on full coverage insurance and car payment of new vehicle, as well as worse fuel economy of a bigger vehicle. The 2008 prius owners are most likely the most profitable drivers..... Ride discrimination or not.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

UberBeemer said:


> Yeah I get that a lot when I try to use common sense or logic with people here. I didn't realize that we had to take sides, because I though the purpose of the site was a discussion forum, not just for complaints.
> 
> And I don't think it was started by someone fed up. Just people trying to foster a sense of community.
> 
> ...


Forbes or another website did a story about Upnet, and they said it was founded by an anonymous disgruntled uber driver.

You're not a fanboy because we disagree, it's because of your defenses of uber.

Your "evil uber" comment was right out of the shill/fanboy talking points manual.

That type of sarcastic comment is usually followed by the suggestion that the fuber critic should "quit if they're not happy with the pay. No one's forcing you to drive"

A poster made that very comment to an uber critic while also reminding the critic of all the billions uber invested in starting the company.

You gave a "like" to that post.

That speaks volumes.


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## mikes424 (May 22, 2016)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Yes, there are some exceptions, which rarely apply. I guess I should have said "rarely" apply to minors. Certainly in what we're talking about they do, unless local laws specifically say different


That is what I am referring to. I expect at some time in the future some parent will be upset we decline to take their lil darling to school and take it to court.


----------



## The Chosen One (Jul 2, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> If a patron at a restaurant makes a server request based on race, honoring that request is illegal.
> 
> The same applies to uber. Dispatching on the basis of race is illegal, even if it's done at the request of a pax or driver.


Why can't a client have a racial preference?


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

The Chosen One said:


> Why can't a client have a racial preference?


A client can have a racial preference, but it's illegal for a business to accommodate a preference based on race.


----------



## The Chosen One (Jul 2, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> A client can have a racial preference, but it's illegal for a business to accommodate a preference based on race.


Not if that business is a private or for-membership-only business. Plenty of restaurants in private clubs. With that said, American and Northern European laws are insane. If a person asks for a racial preference, why should the business be threatened with a fine for fulfilling it? Makes no sense.


----------



## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> You know better than to make a rediculous comment like that.
> 
> Who's side are you on anyhow, fuber's or the drivers?
> 
> ...


Speaking of ridiculous. Does this sentence sound familiar?

*Should I get on my knees and thank the benevolent fuber for paying me 1972 taxi rates?*


----------



## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Your "evil uber" comment was right out of the shill/fanboy talking points manual.


You have a manual?

Listen, I am going to draw a line here. Your posts are going toward personal confrontation.

I disagree with you, because I find your argument childish, and what you call proof to be a case of not understanding patent law. Not because I am defending the company. Go talk to a patent lawyer. See if they don't say pretty much the same thing.



Sold My Soul For Stars said:


> For all of the drivers who don't see this as necessarily a bad thing, here's something to ponder. If they're able to match rides based on all of these "preferences", then they can also "unmatch" you based on "preferences". Example - if you're a driver they want to push out, they can match you solely with low rated passengers, knowing that over time you will either have an incident that gets you deactivated or your rating will end up taking the big enough hit, getting you deactivated. they can match you up with only short, non profitable trips, leaving you so frustrated, you quit. This could go both ways guys.


Maybe. But to what end? If they want you out, they can deactivate for any of several reasons. But as long as you're active you're more valuable to them if you're earning. Think of this from a revenue standpoint. They profit very little from reigning in drivers. It simply makes no sense for them to do so. Why keep a worker on if you don't plan on getting the most out of them?


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

UberBeemer said:


> I guess you will have to drive one of the robot cars then...


I hear they come with a free Hulu subscription.


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> Likely so they can discriminate against the driver by not giving them certain rides.


If they want to prevent ex-felons from riding with me (since I'm an ex-LEO) I'm ok with that - but the rest smells like a class action suit


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Ziggy said:


> If they want to prevent ex-felons from riding with me (since I'm an ex-LEO) I'm ok with that - but the rest smells like a class action suit


Better call Saul...


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

Noonespecial said:


> I think so too..... But still it's dumb to use a newer, bigger, nicer vehicle for "x" or pool, they are still losing. They're spending the most of all the driver's to have that car, and losing the most in depreciation. It's better to be a $20-25 per hour driver of an old compact that'd paid for than making $30 an hr and having 500$+ expense on full coverage insurance and car payment of new vehicle, as well as worse fuel economy of a bigger vehicle. The 2008 prius owners are most likely the most profitable drivers..... Ride discrimination or not.


Not to mention that things change. The algorithm also seems to take into account the age of the vehicle. So your new SUV might get the best treatment for the first year or two but then that other new guy one block over will get the best rides and you'll be stuck with the $500 a month car payment.



Retired Senior said:


> Hey: touberornottouber, thank you for taking the time and trouble to sort this out. I do have to say that - at the age of 65 - I am getting what I believe is my fair share of both quick "gonna be late for school" rides as well as "long rides" ... I just got back from JFK... 2 hours from Shelton Ct to JFK airport and 2 very aggravating hours back. But that trip got be $87 in Uber fees plus a $20 tip, so I am not complaining!!! I think $25 an hour is fair compensation!!!!
> 
> But what happens when I have one, if not 2, of my front teeth yanked in a month or two? I don't have the money for 2 implants and I am afraid of what I am going to look like. Can I be down=rated (and discarded) for having visibly missing teeth? No need to answer.... we are in a "photogenic" world. I am afraid to have the teeth pulled until I have the money for implants... Maybe I'll plan to do it all in January. I plan on not driving much January and February 2019....
> 
> ...


You're welcome. Good luck to you and happy fourth of July! 

I don't think people look at missing teeth as negatively on older folks as they do younger folks. The biggest issue might actually be what it does to your speech for a little bit while you adjust to it. I'm probably going to get some upper dentures (rather than spending tens of thousands on implants) myself at some point and will go through much of the same thing.



UberBeemer said:


> This thread is interesting from the standpoint that it reveals how many drivers hate the company so much that they're latching on to this as proof of a conspiracy.


I think you are a driver so you should understand it a little bit at least. Maybe you don't because you are doing so well??

But anyway if you have had to sit out somewhere for a couple hours without getting a ping you might understand some of the outrage. Especially if you really needed the money at the time and you were checking the rider app every couple minutes and noticing that it seems like every other driver around you is getting the pings but not you.

It sucks to be out there earning $5 an hour. It sucks even more when you really should be making $15-20 an hour but aren't because some faceless secret algorithm decided to penalize you. It would be even worse if it ended up penalizing you due to something like your age.



henrygates said:


> They may have patented it but it doesn't mean it is programmed that way. Google and Apple have some weird patents. It also keeps other companies from doing something they want to do or plan to do in the future.


Yes but they patented an algorithm which explicitly mentions discriminating against drivers based on age. That is very significant and at minimum warrants caution. I did not think of it before but I will probably contact the AARP at least and bring this topic to their attention so they can at least monitor the situation. I would think there are many thousands of drivers over 55.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> It sucks to be out there earning $5 an hour. It sucks even more when you really should be making $15-20 an hour but aren't because some faceless secret algorithm decided to penalize you. It would be even worse if it ended up penalizing you due to something like your age.


I agree it (the dispatch system) seems like it sucks at times. Like when I first signed on, it was weeks before I got my first ride. I got nasty-gram emails saying I might get deactivated if I didn't take more trips. But there were none here to take, until people caught on. And some days, I get lots of great trips. Other days, its pool or nothing. I don't see it as a conspiracy. If I want more or different, I move to another area.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

I went ahead and sent a quick email to the AARP. They may or may not actually be discriminating against elderly drivers but either way I feel it should properly be monitored by interested parties who also have the means to take action should it be needed.



> To: [email protected]
> 
> Hello, I just wanted to bring it to your attention that apparently Uber has patented an algorithm for dispatching rides to Uber drivers which appears include discriminating against drivers based upon their age. You can read the details here:
> 
> ...


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> I went ahead and sent a quick email to the AARP. They may or may not actually be discriminating against elderly drivers but either way I feel it should properly be monitored by interested parties who also have the means to take action should it be needed.


Good luck with that. Exactly how do you think AARP or anyone else will be able to monitor a secret algorithm?



touberornottouber said:


> Not to mention that things change. The algorithm also seems to take into account the age of the vehicle. So your new SUV might get the best treatment for the first year or two but then that other new guy one block over will get the best rides and you'll be stuck with the $500 a month car payment.
> 
> You're welcome. Good luck to you and happy fourth of July!
> 
> ...


All just wild speculation. This fact doesn't prove anything either but I get more rides in my old car than I did when I was driving my new car.


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> sent a quick email to the AARP.


Hello, this is AARP. Thank you for contacting us. We understand that you have concerns regarding age discrimination, we take this issue very seriously! In order to assist you better, please help us to understand your concern. What is a/an Uber?


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Mista T said:


> Hello, this is AARP. Thank you for contacting us. We understand that you have concerns regarding age discrimination, we take this issue very seriously! In order to assist you better, please help us to understand your concern. What is a/an Uber?


Before they answer, they're going to ask for the $17 membership fee.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

Mista T said:


> Hello, this is AARP. Thank you for contacting us. We understand that you have concerns regarding age discrimination, we take this issue very seriously! In order to assist you better, please help us to understand your concern. What is a/an Uber?


Oh well. At least I tried. I guess we'll see. One thing which shocked me was I put the patent url in Google and all I could find were posts here on this forum. No one else is talking about it. It could use some attention I think...


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## possibledriver (Dec 16, 2014)

Noonespecial said:


> I feel for you. You're using a car that makes sense. Unfortunately, there are tons of idiots who are destroying newer, or bigger vehicles and might be getting these rides before you, but they are still making less because their car payment and insurance are higher and then they're gonna lose big time when their car hits over 150,000 miles before its paid off and has zero value left.
> I still get why uber does it. They need people to keep using the service and they need drivers to keep driving. If there is a nicer car they might get the better ride but I stand by my belief that those drivers still lose in the end. Uber is looking for or have already found an hourly bottom rate where people will keep driving and not quit. As long as people who have nicer vehicles remain too stupid to understand depreciation and loss of resale value, smart people like you using a cheaper, smaller, efficient car will lose rides when those cars are nearby. Unfortunately, when the trump depression hits in a few months it's gonna REALLY be bad. If you're one of those people who thinks that ain't gonna happen then you need way more help than you know. Get another job Now, be prepared. Try Ride Austin, try Amazon delivery, don't depend on Uber for shit.


Amazon Flex is even worse than Uber or Lyft . Amazon warehouses are horrid


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## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

Squirming Like A Toad said:


> It may be just my imagination and I don't know what other drivers are getting, but there may be a punishment/reward system in place. I take almost all my pings, including some that most drivers won't, and when I do I usually get rewarded with some good rides after that.
> 
> One thing that is definitely noticeable is when a passenger cancels, I can expect another ping within 60 seconds. We all appear to be in a bit of a queue wherever we are, they don't want drivers getting bored or tired, so I guess when we get a CXL we don't lose our spot in that invisible queue.
> 
> Now here's an interesting thing to research: how do that do that thing where they divert you off a long pickup and give you a closer one? They can't cancel the ride you took without knowing another driver is going to take it, and they can't cancel your ride until they know they have another one for you, so it seems they have a small window of time in which to make that transaction. The acceptance rates of the drivers might be involved in that.


I doubt you are getting more pings because you're taking everything that is sent to you. It's most likely based on demand. If it's busy I can turn down runs all day and still get runs offered to me right away. It's when it's slow that this software might work against me.


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## Noonespecial (May 26, 2018)

goneubering said:


> Good luck with that. Exactly how do you think AARP or anyone else will be able to monitor a secret algorithm?
> 
> All just wild speculation. This fact doesn't prove anything either but I get more rides in my old car than I did when I was driving my new car.


When I was still driving I "upgraded" from a 2011 xc90 to a 2005 buick century.... And I also did not see a decrease in rides. I did, however, experience with BOTH vehicles a decline in ride length after 1 or 2 really good rides or $50 hours. Again, I believe that ride discrimination is real, not a tin foil hat, but it only applies when there are multiple drivers, and it's based on keeping passengers happy, not to hurt older, or minority, or female drivers, etc. There has to be Some method for deciding who gets a ride when there are 2 or 3 drivers within 5 minutes of a pax. I also believe that this helps AND hurts ALL drivers. So I disagree with any notion that any type of driver is getting picked on ALL THE TIME.
If there are 3 drivers less than 2 minutes away, HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHO GETS IT? if the older guy gets it every time, that's not fair to the younger guy. If the white guy gets it every time, it's unfair to the minority. Every good driver I met had a rating that ranged from 4.91 to 4.95,so it can't just be about ratings, so why not passenger preference? This keeps pax using the service which keeps drivers busy. There is no lawsuit to file here, it's just common sense. Pull up the pax app and look at the saturation of drivers in a downtown area or hotel area or bar area, how is Uber supposed to come up with a system that is absolutely fair to everyone all the time. No one complains when they get back to back airport runs, everyone complains when it's slow and you get passed over.... But it is what it is.

I'm super angry about the screenshots where pax paid $90 for a surge ride and the driver got $28. THIS IS THE BS WE SHOULD BE DISCUSSING. This is why I quit. 
There appears to be some people in this thread who just simply will not believe that Uber is just trying to maximize income. Thinking that they are picking on you is where the tin foil hats come in.


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## TBone (Jan 19, 2015)

Interesting, some people here are screaming discrimination yet all I see is a genius algorithm for keeping riders happy with selected drivers. Seems fair enough


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

TBone said:


> Interesting, some people here are screaming discrimination yet all I see is a genius algorithm for keeping riders happy with selected drivers. Seems fair enough


You don't even know what it is really doing or how far it is going and you think it is "fair enough"? I think that is one of the main problems with it. No one knows exactly where they stand with it.


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## Asificarewhatyoudontthink (Jul 6, 2017)

Uber_Dubler said:


> I think the difference with the restaurant example is the customer is directly making the decision. If a restaurant assigns wait staff based on color, age, sexuality, I believe that is where the problem comes in.


The rider is making the decision through their ratings of drivers. 
Over time certain analytics can be performed on the data and a matching criteria could be created.

Personally, just because they have it in the patent doesn't mean it was ever implemented. And, anyone who has worked for the company for much time at all will have figured out they don't do many of the things they say they do.


----------



## SkidRow (Nov 26, 2016)

This topic touches on something I've noticed and am baffled by: I will have weeks when I end up in the same neighborhood (often the same block) over and over again. I'm in a huge market that is very spread out, the likelihood of my going to some out of the way subdivision repeatedly seems extremely unlikely, but I see it again and again. 

I can't think of any possible business reason for doing this, but I've come to believe the dispatch system tags me for certain parts of town from time to time.


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## Sold My Soul For Stars (Dec 26, 2017)

SkidRow said:


> This topic touches on something I've noticed and am baffled by: I will have weeks when I end up in the same neighborhood (often the same block) over and over again. I'm in a huge market that is very spread out, the likelihood of my going to some out of the way subdivision repeatedly seems extremely unlikely, but I see it again and again.
> 
> I can't think of any possible business reason for doing this, but I've come to believe the dispatch system tags me for certain parts of town from time to time.


That frequently happens to me as well. It just happened on Wed, actually. I pretty much ran the same route all night long. I have often wondered what would cause this, why this would happen, for what benefit it has to anyone. I can't come up with any logical explanation. The only thing I can think of is, maybe they have something in place to prevent this and that something has a glitch of some sort, preventing it from working properly there for the algorithm doesn't function as it should. IDk but it definitely happens


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

SkidRow said:


> This topic touches on something I've noticed and am baffled by: I will have weeks when I end up in the same neighborhood (often the same block) over and over again. I'm in a huge market that is very spread out, the likelihood of my going to some out of the way subdivision repeatedly seems extremely unlikely, but I see it again and again.
> 
> I can't think of any possible business reason for doing this, but I've come to believe the dispatch system tags me for certain parts of town from time to time.


I've seen it as well. Also I notice the "fake surges" sometimes seem to be trying to get me to go to a certain area. These little fake surges will be just a block or two.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Omg people there are these things called chaos and random chance. You’re not speshul or unique. Boober does not like or dislike you. I gave a ride to the same guy 3 times in a row in the past 36 hours. Zomg what are the chances of that happening ?!?! Oh, that’s right. The guy lives in the same area as I do and I am often the only available select drive around. 

One time I had a ride that took me into the city from the suburbs and then another directly out of the city right back to the exact same neighborhood in the suburbs that I originally started at. Why is Boober doing this to me ?!?!

See how silly you sound?


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## melusine3 (Jun 20, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Reread their non-discrimination policy, and you'll see uber exempts themselves from the policy.
> 
> Their wording of their policy covers drivers and pax, NOT fuber itself.


They can write their policy all they want, but what they are doing sounds very illegal. Class action lawsuit!


----------



## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> Omg people there are these things called chaos and random chance. You're not speshul or unique. Boober does not like or dislike you. I gave a ride to the same guy 3 times in a row in the past 36 hours. Zomg what are the chances of that happening ?!?! Oh, that's right. The guy lives in the same area as I do and I am often the only available select drive around.
> 
> One time I had a ride that took me into the city from the suburbs and then another directly out of the city right back to the exact same neighborhood in the suburbs that I originally started at. Why is Boober doing this to me ?!?!
> 
> See how silly you sound?


Yes, very silly indeed. To think that the company might actually be following a patent they themselves filed is a pretty grand conspiracy theory right on par with the moon landing being fake.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> Yes, very silly indeed. To think that the company might actually be following a patent they themselves filed is a pretty grand conspiracy theory right on par with the moon landing being fake.


Bc every patent filed is used 100% of the time. You know the comb-over has a patent right ?

On a related note, I was matched with another woman today that I've given rides to in the past. What the hell is going on?!?! I think the algorithm is only matching me with people ive given rides to in the past. Why would they do this to me and only me ?!?!


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## Bus Bozo (May 25, 2018)

Mista T said:


> There are many times that I hope that Uber and Lyft would figure it out. I wish they would learn my patterns and adjust accordingly. Some simple examples:
> 
> * Almost every ride that I get paid minimum, I one star.
> 
> ...


I don't understand this either. Makes so much sense to match driver and rider preferences based on prior behavior/demonstrated patterns. I am confident this is doable via the algorithm.


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## Tom Harding (Sep 26, 2016)

mikes424 said:


> Uber and its affiliates therefore prohibit discrimination against riders or drivers based on race, religion, national origin, disability, sexual orientation, sex, marital status, gender identity, age
> 
> If what this says is accurate, how do the reconcile no unaccompanied minors?
> 
> ...


FYI:
Although Uber and Lyft prohibit persons uber 18 from riding without a person over 17, VIA's policy is those from 13 to 17 only need parental consent to ride in a VIA car.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> You hit the nail on the head. None of this crap really matters if there aren't any drivers around. If you are worried about this because you're old or black or have an old car whatever, then move to an area that doesn't have many drivers (pro tip: you should be doing that anyway )


What you don't seem to be understanding though is that in most markets it is oversaturated with drivers. In a lot of markets you cannot consistently avoid being near other drivers.


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> I thought I would mention it as it is probably important to many of us who are older and do this full time.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from a patent Uber made in regards to their dispatch system:
> 
> ...


This is the first step towards Dara's goal of allowing riders to pick a minimum star rating for their driver. That is good. It will weed out the low rated drivers by reducing thier trip requests.

The age deal might work in some drivers favor. Riders seem to like more mature drivers. The young drivers tend to be careless, speeders and cocky. This may work in favor of more mature drivers.

Just saying


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> What you don't seem to be understanding though is that in most markets it is oversaturated with drivers. In a lot of markets you cannot consistently avoid being near other drivers.


i'm in a huge market with tens of thousands of other drivers. they are easily avoidable. most of the ants flock to the same stupid predictable places.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Are we still talking about this? Did anyone talk to a patent attorney?

Oh, yeah. I did. My older sister. She holds three degrees. Bachelor of Sciences, Master of Sciences. And, Juris Doctor.

Formerly employed by Monsanto in St. Louis, M.O., defending their patents.

The wide variety of attributes mentioned in their patent are, in her expert opinion, added in order to meet requirements for filing a patent. The 4 basic requirements are:

invention to be patentable, it must be:


Patentable subject matter, i.e., a kind of subject-matter eligible for patent protection
Novel (i.e. at least some aspect of it must be new)
Non-obvious (in United States patent law) or involve an inventive step (in European patent law)
Useful (in U.S. patent law) or be susceptible of industrial application (in European patent law[1])
The extraordinary details you read in the patent are intended to meet points 2 and 3.

They do not have to apply each to their invention. But if they don't outline each in the patent application, their ideas aren't very well protected.

I think the only time you ought to even consider worrying about their discriminating against you, is when you see them implement some kind of checklist for riders to express preferences. Kind of like PoF or Match.com.

Try to think of this from a logical point of view. As long as you are competent and your car serviceable, there is no benefit to Uber in being so picky.

They just want rides covered, and quickly. Their servers can only do that to the extent allowed by the quality of your connection (and probably the rider's) to the GPS satellites, and the Internet at a given moment. The most likely, and logical explanation for a ride going to someone else when you might be closer, is that driver was readily visible to both the satellites, and the internet connection was good enough for the server to make a match.

If they tried to calculate all the other variables in that split second, it would take a lot longer to match riders to drivers, which they explicitly dont want.

Their system isnt flawless, but the fact that it works in densely populated areas with thousands of riders an drivers, many constantly moving, is pretty amazing.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

But...but that means I’m not special! I thought boober was out to get me!


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

heynow321 said:


> But...but that means I'm not special! I thought boober was out to get me!


They are. Out to get you to go get them some moolah


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

UberBeemer said:


> They just want rides covered, and quickly. Their servers can only do that to the extent allowed by the quality of your connection (and probably the rider's) to the GPS satellites, and the Internet at a given moment. The most likely, and logical explanation for a ride going to someone else when you might be closer, is that driver was readily visible to both the satellites, and the internet connection was good enough for the server to make a match.
> 
> If they tried to calculate all the other variables in that split second, it would take a lot longer to match riders to drivers, which they explicitly dont want.
> 
> Their system isnt flawless, but the fact that it works in densely populated areas with thousands of riders an drivers, many constantly moving, is pretty amazing.


Hmmm. Just to be clear, are you now or in the past in any way paid by Uber or connected in any way to them other than being a driver? Do you have any relatives or close friends who are?



> The most likely, and logical explanation for a ride going to someone else when you might be closer, is that driver was readily visible to both the satellites, and the internet connection was good enough for the server to make a match.


Can you explain in more technical detail what you are saying here and what you think is going on? What do you mean by being visible to "both satellites"? Exactly which satellites are you referring to?

Don't forget that there is also a video from Uber speaking of "500 factors" in matching riders and drivers and that it is live in the dispatching system (marketplace).

Here is the video:






It is from nearly a year ago. I think it shows together with the patent that more is going on than you seem to think. Unless the developer who gave that talk just lied in order to impress others?



> If they tried to calculate all the other variables in that split second, it would take a lot longer to match riders to drivers, which they explicitly dont want.


The video (from Uber linked above) specifically addresses this.


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

heynow321 said:


> But...but that means I'm not special! I thought boober was out to get me!


Boober IS out to get you. Why? Because you are NOT special.

Just the other one million of us.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

I guess another way to put this:

Do you think that the person giving this talk is outright lying about the dispatch system being that complicated where it uses "500 factors"?

Do you think it really just uses ETA and that all this talk of machine learning, 500 factors, with the associated diagrams and visual aids are all just an elaborate lie by the company to make them look "smarter"?

Here's the video once again:


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

SkidRow said:


> This topic touches on something I've noticed and am baffled by: I will have weeks when I end up in the same neighborhood (often the same block) over and over again. I'm in a huge market that is very spread out, the likelihood of my going to some out of the way subdivision repeatedly seems extremely unlikely, but I see it again and again.
> 
> I can't think of any possible business reason for doing this, but I've come to believe the dispatch system tags me for certain parts of town from time to time.


I have been pointing this out for years. I'm in a huge market, thousands of restaurants, clubs, etc, but I'll end up with the same bar pings over and over, even when I'm a mile or two away, and there are drivers everywhere.

Also, if I go to the airport first off, I often get more airport runs, but if I don't go to the airport I get none.

It's like it decides to try yo have you work certain venues. I posted about this the other day, but I've posted about it numerous times in the last 3 years or so.

My SO has seen it too.



touberornottouber said:


> I guess another way to put this:
> 
> Do you think that the person giving this talk is outright lying about the dispatch system being that complicated where it uses "500 factors"?
> 
> ...


No, I think they play with it all the time because the engineers have to justify their jobs. Have you seen any of the videos of Travis talking about their algorithms? It's obvious he can't stand to leave anything alone and that's how the company still works.

Look at their constant, useless app "updates." Same principle. No one there understands the principle of diminishing returns.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Oy vey.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> Hmmm. Just to be clear, are you now or in the past in any way paid by Uber or connected in any way to them other than being a driver? Do you have any relatives or close friends who are?
> 
> Can you explain in more technical detail what you are saying here and what you think is going on? What do you mean by being visible to "both satellites"? Exactly which satellites are you referring to?
> 
> ...


I am not, nor have I ever been an employee of uber. I am like you, contract labor.

Both satellites... lol... both, the GPS satellites (there are 24) and, the dispatch server. Get it?

The system may or may not incorporate any or all elements. I think you have to accept that, yes, a ton of this crap in the video is just marketing fluff. Just like the commercial that showed the driver clocking out of the app with a $650 daily earning, and it was supposed to be part time. Is it possible? Maybe. Is it likely? Probably not. Do you think UberJarvis is out there, fretting over crap like what kind of X car to dispatch, or are they just trying to snag the first, then closest fit based on service requested and number of available seats?

Look around you. Every day, companies are making fabulous claims about their product. Pillows filled with husks supposedly retain their shape all night. Medications that make your life wonderful (just never mind the side effects).

Here comes Uber. They are competing with Sidecar, Lyft, Via, etc. What would you expect them to tell you? "Hey dummies, we're just like those guys..."

No, they go all John Hammond, and sell you their futuristic, fantastic, magic carpet dispatch system. And look, we know it is true, because it says so in their patent application? Gimme a break. If they were that smart, their website might make sense, their software wouldn't glitch, their helpdesk would answer the actual questions you ask them.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

heynow321 said:


> Omg people there are these things called chaos and random chance. You're not speshul or unique. Boober does not like or dislike you. I gave a ride to the same guy 3 times in a row in the past 36 hours. Zomg what are the chances of that happening ?!?! Oh, that's right. The guy lives in the same area as I do and I am often the only available select drive around.
> 
> One time I had a ride that took me into the city from the suburbs and then another directly out of the city right back to the exact same neighborhood in the suburbs that I originally started at. Why is Boober doing this to me ?!?!
> 
> See how silly you sound?


I know statistics, and what I've experienced is beyond random chance. It happens too often. And chance doesn't explain why it would have me pass other drivers closer to the pax, again and again, in one night, to pick up at one specific bar.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Here's another example. Dating.

I was divorced about 10 years ago. Worked killer hours at a big firm, and my social circle was shrinking, as happens to middle aged people who work too much.

So, I tried PoF. After a while I thought to give match a try. Same people were members of both, and their search tools pulled up mostly the same results.
Eventually eHarmony shows up. It's supposed to be the be-all, end-all dating app because it is so scientific. Setting up a profile required answering endless questions. Literally a couple of hours worth. Before too long, you realize, they are repeating questions, but phrasing them differently. Great. They're taking my deposition. When all is said and done, guess what? Yep. Same people appear in my search results. But wait!! They said "science" and stuff!

It's all marketing.



Fuzzyelvis said:


> I know statistics, and what I've experienced is beyond random chance. It happens too often. And chance doesn't explain why it would have me pass other drivers closer to the pax, again and again, in one night, to pick up at one specific bar.


Look, if you know statistics, work it up. You should be able to record some history, then do up a chart or graph, right? But wait, are they the same cars? Same riders? Or just the same places with crowds that look similar?

Same with this so called smoking gun patent. Call a patent lawyer. The Chicago bar association should be able to help you with some phone numbers. See if I am lying.


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## uberkristina (Jun 8, 2018)

touberornottouber said:


> I thought I would mention it as it is probably important to many of us who are older and do this full time.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from a patent Uber made in regards to their dispatch system:
> 
> ...


HMMM.. this may be why I was always getting short runs all of the time or waiting hours and hours for a ping.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

UberBeemer said:


> Here's another example. Dating.
> 
> I was divorced about 10 years ago. Worked killer hours at a big firm, and my social circle was shrinking, as happens to middle aged people who work too much.
> 
> ...


I'm not wasting time to do that. If I toss a coin 100 times and it comes up heads every time I know it COULD be chance. I also "know" it's not.

Not the same cars, if you mean the ones closer to where I'm getting calls--but I don't think you understand how many uber drivers are on a given block here on a weekend night. Heck, they're all over on Tuesday afternoon.

Same places with crowds that look similar? I don't understand your question.

I don't think the Chicago bar will want to talk to me. I'm in Houston. And I wasn't even addressing the patent. I'm just saying their dispatching is not based on closest driver only. There are patterns which clearly contradict that, and you'll see that if you pay attention and drive enough trips.

I don't know what eharmony has to do with this, quite honestly.


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

Seems like the last 10 days I have had an abnormally high number of pax from Atlanta in my car. It is a recurring theme. However, I chalk this one up to chance. Esp since half my rides are Lyft and the other half Uber, lol.

But I firmly believe that Uber (and Lyft) do incorporate some stuff in their algorithms that send rides with certain criteria towards certain drivers, if in the area, who have demonstrated success at making those types of pax happy in the past over and over.

As time has gone on, I get fewer and fewer college students. I get fewer drive thru requests built into the destinations. I don't get GGG anymore. I seem to get sucked into the same suburbs now, whereas a year ago I would always end up my Fri and Sat night's in some random city at 330am.

Random chance, or algorithm? I believe it is a bit of both. If the companies can manipulate us without sacrificing potential profits, they dang sure will try! But when ants are thin, they send the closest driver.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

God you people are unbelievable.


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## SkidRow (Nov 26, 2016)

UberBeemer said:


> Both satellites... lol... both, the GPS satellites (there are 24) and, the dispatch server. Get it?


Since nit picking is so much fun: There are 31 GPS satellites in the constellation currently. You need four to get a location fix.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

SkidRow said:


> Since nit picking is so much fun: There are 31 GPS satellites in the constellation currently. You need four to get a location fix.


You're counting stand-by backups, I think. 24 are active, but point taken...



Fuzzyelvis said:


> I'm not wasting time to do that. If I toss a coin 100 times and it comes up heads every time I know it COULD be chance. I also "know" it's not.
> 
> Not the same cars, if you mean the ones closer to where I'm getting calls--but I don't think you understand how many uber drivers are on a given block here on a weekend night. Heck, they're all over on Tuesday afternoon.
> 
> ...


A coin flip isn't chance? Are you using a trick coin?

I do understand how many cars. I do work the city sometimes, and it is crawling with rideshare cars. But you can't prove much if you can't repeat an experiment under the same conditions. The statistical aspect is speculative, based on assumption.

You can pay all the attention in the world, but the variables are significant, perhaps more so than anyone admits. Is your GPS signal strong, is your LTE signal constant? Is your phone running one or two apps, or 8 at a time? How about in the next car over, or the next? Is the app-off game messing with any or all of this?

I know we want to see patterns. Our brains are wired that way. But we tend to trick ourselves a lot.

Chicago would talk to you. They're nice like that, but sure call the local or state organization near you.

EHarmony, just used as an example. Their "scientific" approach is worded similarly in their ads. It is no more effective than the checklist searches on the competing sites.


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## beezlewaxin (Feb 10, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> I always wondered about Uber's age requirement. My commercial insurance policy requires a special physical evaluation form to be completed by a physician for all drivers 65 and over every two years.


This sounds alot like the DOT physical exam. All Colorado rideshare drivers must do this every 2 years regardless of the driver's age.

They used to (and may still) perform these exams in the Uber Greenlight hub for $50 which comes out of your first Uber earnings.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

SkidRow said:


> Since nit picking is so much fun: There are 31 GPS satellites in the constellation currently. You need four to get a location fix.


Right that is what confused me. I was thinking he might have been confused and thought that somehow your phone needed to have a connection to both "your" satellite and the "customers". You need 3 or 4 satellites to get a lock on location so when he mentioned two it had me baffled. Even then this is taken care of by your phone. Your phone provides the location to the uber app which in turn transmit the information to the remote servers.

I know transient communication errors do not explain some of the things I have seen. I suppose it is possible, but at the same time highly improbable.

People do tend to nitpick. I had thought with the details of the patent and the video pretty much everyone would agree that some shady stuff is going on and that it isn't all just based on the ETA. I've honestly been quite shocked by some of the reactions (and lack of reactions) from people upon sharing this information. I would have thought this would generate a heck of a *storm by now.



UberBeemer said:


> You can pay all the attention in the world, but the variables are significant, perhaps more so than anyone admits. Is your GPS signal strong, is your LTE signal constant? Is your phone running one or two apps, or 8 at a time? How about in the next car over, or the next? Is the app-off game messing with any or all of this?


From some of your past posts you seemed pretty technically literate. So when I read this sort of thing above it makes me question what is going on. It honestly comes across a bit as gaslighting, if from someone highly technically literate? This is why I earlier asked whether you worked for the company in any way besides being a driver.

While it is possible that those things can cause issues, it is highly unlikely that they would cause issues for 8-10 hours a day in various spots all over a locality while other non-Uber apps such as Lyft (which also use the GPS functionality) work fine. Also it is more likely that someone who isn't very technically literate would run into those issues and not notice them. I assure you if I were not getting a signal in a certain area or having regular transient network failures on the mobile network I would notice this quite quickly.

Also I admit I haven't looked in depth into how phone GPS works yet but I would think it keeps track of recent locations and will use that historical data in the event of a transient GPS failure. Also it can fallback on using the mobile signals. Granted from what I understand the GPS location is more accurate than that based on the network, however, this really doesn't explain someone getting the ping instead of yourself when they are over a mile away.

Again, we are not just coming up with conspiracy theories and "blaming all of our problems on big bad Uber who is out to get us". We are referring to behaviors which are explicitly defined in their own patents and to a lesser extent their own videos.



uberkristina said:


> HMMM.. this may be why I was always getting short runs all of the time or waiting hours and hours for a ping.


Do you happen to also drive a small car or an older car by chance? Is your market highly saturated with drivers to the point where there are usually three or more within a 5 block radius?


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

https://uberpeople.net/members/touberornottouber.68742/

I guarantee I am not gaslighting. I am just trying to point out that this has so many moving parts, that anomalies of varying types are inevitable. Your points about a ping going to a car a mile away? How do you know who got a specific ping? We don't. And transient issues can be momentary, but a momentary lapse can make you look like you are offline. And in a given area, my sprint phone I use for uber, and my at&t phone I use for Lyft can have drastically different signal strength.

Another thing to consider is the vast number of users. Chicago, I read, has over 10k drivers. Who knows how many users are online. And, does havi g had the rider app open earlier mean it is still reaching out to the servers of it's still a live background app until you close it?

Combine that with this. Regardless of the size of their server farms, each is limited to a given internet bandwidth. They're going to be doi g frequent backups, frequent updates and patches to server operating systems, security sweeps, etc., and the prime times for that are the same hours all the surge hunters are on the street, in the busiest areas, playing the app-off jack-off game.

Do you see why I am skeptical that we can prove anything based on the over inclusive patent app, and some marketing videos? I have heard of machine learning since 1992. I haven't seen too many applications able to really make it effective in the way that it is sold to be.

What we would need is the source code. Depending on the language, it may be possible to get an idea as to whether these variables you suspect are being used to discriminate are even mentioned. They would be in the declarations. Usually you declare variables and their data types particularly if they're used throughout the application. From there, you might be able to search for the sections of code that mention them. From there it gets trickier, and you have to understand the programming language to be sure how they're employed, if at all.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

UberBeemer said:


> https://uberpeople.net/members/touberornottouber.68742/
> 
> I guarantee I am not gaslighting. I am just trying to point out that this has so many moving parts, that anomalies of varying types are inevitable.


It honestly feels A LOT like gaslighting to me. The more I think about it pretty heavy gaslighting too. From dismissing the patent almost completely now to bringing up various uncertainties to make someone thinking this might be happening to them to question and second guess themselves. I'm not saying you are necessarily being malicious here but please click that Wikipedia link and read it and then go back and look at your responses in this topic and the other ones related. You can probably see how it seems a lot like gaslighting. You've done everything from talking about how even though they have a patent explicitly detailing these things that they might not be using it (doubt). Then as I recall you were implying that a lawsuit would never be possible (doubt) and now you are bringing up a lot of technical details to create more doubt. Worse, while the technical issues you raise are feasible in any one particular occurrence, they are highly unlikely to explain multiple occurrence over an extended period of time.

I get that there is nothing wrong with skepticism but it almost looks as if you are looking for any potential opening where you can create doubt or otherwise get someone to question themselves because you are moving from one thing to another (First about the patent not being implemented then to various technical explanations) That you are a mod also kind of amplifies this. Again I'm not saying that you are necessary being malicious. Just please read up on gaslighting and then consider how it might appear to be that.



> Your points about a ping going to a car a mile away? How do you know who got a specific ping? We don't. And transient issues can be momentary, but a momentary lapse can make you look like you are offline. And in a given area, my sprint phone I use for uber, and my at&t phone I use for Lyft can have drastically different signal strength.


Gaslighting IMO to discourage positive anecdotal accounts from being shared by others. But of course your Sprint and AT&T phones have differing signal strengths. They are on different networks.

It's difficult to track an individual ping short of some elaborate controlled setup, yes, but we can kind of figure out something is going on in various ways such as watching the rider app and seeing "ants" disappear and reappear all around us in real time while we don't get any pings ourselves. We can also get a good indication of something being up visually such as by noting how busy a hotel near us seems to be. We might also get a sense that something is up by noting Lyft in comparison is giving us non-stop pings in that same area while Uber is giving us nothing. Yes, each of these is complex and there are things you could point out to create doubt as to their validity in determining something is up.... But to put it simply sometimes veteran rideshare drivers can just tell.



> Another thing to consider is the vast number of users. Chicago, I read, has over 10k drivers. Who knows how many users are online. And, does havi g had the rider app open earlier mean it is still reaching out to the servers of it's still a live background app until you close it?
> 
> Combine that with this. Regardless of the size of their server farms, each is limited to a given internet bandwidth. They're going to be doi g frequent backups, frequent updates and patches to server operating systems, security sweeps, etc., and the prime times for that are the same hours all the surge hunters are on the street, in the busiest areas, playing the app-off jack-off game.


This is actually a valid concern but is more gaslighting (creating doubt) I think. Yes transient network issues on Uber's end are possible due to congestion. This might explain some particular instances of failure but it just isn't enough to explain all or even most of it. For instance if it makes a driver not get a ping for three hours, why would it not also affect the other drivers nearby? Why would it occur over multiple days, weeks, or even months? When they log off and on, totally close the app, restart their phone, and drive to multiple locations within the city?



> Do you see why I am skeptical that we can prove anything based on the over inclusive patent app, and some marketing videos? I have heard of machine learning since 1992. I haven't seen too many applications able to really make it effective in the way that it is sold to be.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor



> *Occam's razor* (also *Ockham's razor* or *Ocham's razor*; Latin: _lex parsimoniae_ "*law of parsimony*") is the problem-solving principle that the simplest solution tends to be the right one. When presented with competing hypotheses to solve a problem, one should select the solution with the fewest assumptions. The idea is attributed to William of Ockham (c. 1287-1347), who was an English Franciscan friar, scholastic philosopher, and theologian.


I advance that the simplest solution here is to say simply that the company is doing exactly what they stated they are doing in the patent and video they themselves published.

This seems more simple and likely than saying that the company lied about their patent and video, had no intention of ever implementing it, and that all the anecdotal accounts by drivers are due to psychological issues or a string of highly unlikely technical issues.



> What we would need is the source code. Depending on the language, it may be possible to get an idea as to whether these variables you suspect are being used to discriminate are even mentioned. They would be in the declarations. Usually you declare variables and their data types particularly if they're used throughout the application. From there, you might be able to search for the sections of code that mention them. From there it gets trickier, and you have to understand the programming language to be sure how they're employed, if at all.


Yes with the source code it would be trivial to see what they are doing. But we have the patent for the dispatch system already which outlines it. The source code would merely be the actual implementation for it.

But let's say somehow I did find source code from Uber showing exactly that they have all these other factors in use (as outlined in the patent and video). What would stop you from claiming that this source code is not in use? That is basically what you are claiming is the case with the patent.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

You really are upset that I can point out a bunch of flaws in your assumption, aren't you. Keep repeating g gaslighting, because that's a sign of gaslighting. The President does it every day, with his "fake news" and other claims. You're trying to gaslight everyone into buying your assumption as true.

Nearly everything you point to in support of your "smoking gun" is speculative, and truism. Everything I have told you is true. The patent app criteria, the common practices when writing patent applications, and the technical factors that play into the function of such a system. None of that is speculative, rather, each statement I have made points to a known factor to each element. How is that gaslighting?

The biggest flaw in your assumption is also the thing you claim as one of the proofs. You dont know which ping goes to which car in a given area. You can't prove it is based on the criteria you assume, and you can't hope to repeat with any acceptable precision to claim scientific validity to your theory. All you have is a patent app, that you have no professional experience to draw on for evaluating. And then you point to a marketing video as proof.

Yes, there are probably more factors than proximity, service level (X or select, etc.), but most likely, those that make any appreciable difference are whether a rider or driver requested not to be matched to another.

Look at it from this perspective. If this "machine learning" claim were true, how would it determine not to put a rider in a Corolla if that rider ever gave 5 stars to drivers in corollas, if they also gave 5 stars to drivers with Souls or Fortes? They would have had to always give low ratings to corolla drivers for that to work.

The hole in this is, who rates a driver based on make or model year, if the car is clean? Nobody. How would the app even know that's why?


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

I found this explanation of filing a patent app, that is in layman's terms:

"_When drafting a claim you want to start with something like this:

1. A {insert title} comprising: {list the parts one by one} {then explain how each are connected}.

For example:

1. A sandwich comprising: 2 pieces of bread, peanut butter and jelly, wherein the peanut butter is spread on 1 piece of bread and the jelly is spread on the other piece of bread and then the two pieces of bread are put together so that the peanut butter and jelly are touching.

This is maybe a silly example, but you should get the idea. *Then in another claim what you want to do is describe the invention with every possible option you can think of. *Let's say that my preferred peanut butter and jelly sandwich has bacon, lettuce, tomato and fluff. I would have a second claim that is something like:

2. The sandwich of claim 1 further comprising: bacon, lettuce, tomato and fluff, wherein these ingredients are disposed between the peanut butter and jelly."_

I hope you see what i am trying to point out. Its not gaslighting, its just how IP law works.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> I would have thought this would generate a heck of a *storm by now.


it's not generating a storm b/c for every piece of anecdotal evidence you experience, the rest of us have experienced the exact opposite. I've had a rating as low as 4.82 before, cancel rates as high as 30%, acceptance rates below 5%, and I never have a problem finding business in an extremely over saturated market. (around 15k active drivers)

people who think they're being "targeted" just don't understand the business. These same people _think_ they're having a brilliant idea by hanging out at the airport all day...oh wait...all the other ants had the same thought. oh i know! I'll head to the night life district! there must be business there! oh wait, other ants had the exact same thought. If you're not getting pings, it's b/c you're in an over saturated area or there just isn't any demand. No one ever said there was going to be demand all day and all night everywhere.

do you understand why boober took away the 6 destination filters? b/c the "network integrity" was being compromised. in non-boober BS speak, what they meant is that customer wait times were increasing b/c too many drivers had destinations set to certain areas. Customers who weren't going in one of those directions were having to wait longer and longer to get a driver without a destination filter set. What does that tell you? customer wait times are paramount to boober.

they're paramount b/c the convenience factor is one of the extremely few things gryft and boober can compete on. I've had customers tell me they decide which service to use by A) price, and if there is no surge on either platform they go to B) which has the closest driver.

llet me give you some more anecdotal evidence. I drive two cars. I have a 2015 base model prius with cloth interior and 86k miles. I also have a newer nicer luxury car I do select/lux/premier with. Sometimes when I know the odds of select business being low or non existent, i'll take out the older busted ass prius. I have no problem finding business. Or other times I'll be in the nice car and want to escape whatever area I'm in but I know there won't be any select business (crappy part of town). I'll open the app up to X rides. Sometimes I don't get any rides though. By your logic, I should be in a priority position relative to other drivers b/c of the nicer newer luxury car. I'm not. I have multiple friends who also boober and sometimes we hangout with the app on at the same time. She will get X pings before me with her busted base model Hyundai. Sometimes I will get them before her. The problem is you, not uber.



UberBeemer said:


> How would the app even know that's why?


exactly. when you rate a driver low, there is NO option that says "I don't like corollas!". Some could manually type it in the feedback box but the population, if it even exists, of people who would think like that would be extremely low.


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## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

Mista T said:


> Strange how we get penalized for zero stars given. How many pax do not rate at all?


The old app used to tell us how many of our rides were rated. 
For me, over 50% of rides were not rated.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

It still does. Tap "Ratings", then "Star rating", then scroll down.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> exactly. when you rate a driver low, there is NO option that says "I don't like corollas!". Some could manually type it in the feedback box but the population, if it even exists, of people who would think like that would be extremely low.


I think part of the problem is you guys don't have any programming experience and aren't able to think very logically. Not an insult. We all have different strengths. I'm not much of an artist...

It explains this in the patent but you probably just aren't able to understand it. Or perhaps you didn't really read it fully.

1. They know which type of car you drive.
2. They know which type of car the driver drove when the customer rated them.
3. It then uses this historical data to draw patterns using machine learning.
4. Based on the patterns future pings for that customer/ride are dispatched with modifiers (not really the fully correct term to use here but a simple way to put it) effectively favoring certain drivers or types of vehicles.

They don't need to type anything in the feedback for the algorithm to derive a pattern. It automatically attempts to infer it. And therein is part of the problem. It could determine that a rider who wants to go on a good ride rated the last people low because they were driving Versas and the driver was over 40. But in reality it was actually because the driver didn't speak good English. The other things were coincidental.

Again this is the problem for you and Uberbeemer I think. You just don't seem to be able to really comprehend how an algorithm/machine learning could actually work like this and do all this. To you it seems impossible and you ask for all sorts of things to be explained to you and you make all sorts of negative conclusions such as the portion I quoted above.



UberBeemer said:


> You really are upset that I can point out a bunch of flaws in your assumption, aren't you. Keep repeating g gaslighting, because that's a sign of gaslighting. The President does it every day, with his "fake news" and other claims. You're trying to gaslight everyone into buying your assumption as true.
> 
> Nearly everything you point to in support of your "smoking gun" is speculative, and truism. Everything I have told you is true. The patent app criteria, the common practices when writing patent applications, and the technical factors that play into the function of such a system. None of that is speculative, rather, each statement I have made points to a known factor to each element. How is that gaslighting?


It is near impossible to prove it to you. As stated even if I brought you actual source code from Uber you could claim the same thing you did with the patent:

That it might exist and be from them but they aren't actually using it and that I have no proof that they are.



> The biggest flaw in your assumption is also the thing you claim as one of the proofs. You dont know which ping goes to which car in a given area. You can't prove it is based on the criteria you assume, and you can't hope to repeat with any acceptable precision to claim scientific validity to your theory. All you have is a patent app, that you have no professional experience to draw on for evaluating. And then you point to a marketing video as proof.


Yes, I am pointing to materials published by the company itself. Including a video talk from the developer and a highly detailed patent. Ultimately all you are doing is dismissing this evidence by creating uncertainty and doubt with it. As stated you could do that with nearly anything. Even if I published source code from Uber right here detailing it you could just claim "Yeah, they created that code but it doesn't mean they actually decided to use it!"



> Yes, there are probably more factors than proximity, service level (X or select, etc.), but most likely, those that make any appreciable difference are whether a rider or driver requested not to be matched to another.
> 
> Look at it from this perspective. If this "machine learning" claim were true, how would it determine not to put a rider in a Corolla if that rider ever gave 5 stars to drivers in corollas, if they also gave 5 stars to drivers with Souls or Fortes? They would have had to always give low ratings to corolla drivers for that to work.
> 
> The hole in this is, who rates a driver based on make or model year, if the car is clean? Nobody. How would the app even know that's why?


Same as with "heynow321" you simply dismiss as impossible that which you do not comprehend. It details it quite a bit in the patent. For every ride it keeps track of things such as the vehicle, age of the driver, source location, destination location, and a general "profile type" of the trip (this is from memory, so not using the exact terminology) among many other things. It then uses models and machine learning to try to derive patterns using the historical data. Basically the rating is used in great part as a feedback mechanism and patterns are drawn from past ratings.

For instance if you took five rides in the past and rated the two which were Versas 4* and all the others 5* then presumably *all other things being equal* the algorithm (though its not really just an algorithm) would assign a lower end fitness score to a driver in the same spot in a versa versus a Honda Odyssey. The end result depending on the exact factors could be that the driver not in the versa gets priority on the run versus you even though you are closer.

This could happen with any other of a number of factors they use. For instance it could happen jsut the same with vehicle age.

It doesn't need to be 100% certain the driver doesn't like Corollas or Versas. It tries to predict maximum satisfaction for the rider based on historical data. It could very well be erroneous. And that is a major part of the problem as certain drivers will get penalized for basically no reason based on an inefficiency in the modeling implementation.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Yeah Uberbeemer already explained how the patent system works. I don’t know why you are ignoring him. Well actually I do, because it completely shatters your point.

I suggest you keep learning your market as you obviously need more experience doing this

Oh here is some more anecdotal evidence for you. I was hanging out with another guy I know with a 4.98 rating and a nicer newer bigger car than mine. We were standing right next to each other and I received a ping before him. We are The same nationality and of similar age except he has everything better than me. So what’s going on there? Did the customer indicate from his usage patterns that he doesn’t like nice beautiful big new cars ?


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

To explain further it is likely even worse than just being based on historical data from a certain rider's past trips and ratings. There is quite a bit in the patent about profiling certain types of rides. For instance is it a customer going to an airport? Is their address local or far away? Is this a trip from a residence or a business? Does the rider take this trip once a week? Ever day? etc etc.

It then might have profiles things like:

"business traveler"
"wage worker"
"pleasure traveler"
"college student"
"local bar crowd"

etc

Based on past data it might then determine that "business travelers" have a dislike for small vehicles. Then it penalizes drivers with small vehicles for these types of trips. Yes drivers might still get this trips but they will get them less than if they were in a larger vehicle.

It's important to realize that basically *the entire dispatch system as described in the patent is about discrimination based on various factors*.

So it really doesn't need historical data from a given passenger to decide to discriminate against a certain driver/vehicle type. It simply can assign the ride(r) to a given profile and then discriminate based on historical data from previous data within that profile.

*If you get assigned in a "bad profile" as driver or otherwise it decides to discriminate against you for a certain good rider profile you like such as maybe "long trip airport traveler" this can potentially seriously hurt your earnings.*

It is far more complex than many of you seem to understand. And I assure you it is sound and that this is possible and a great part of it is likely implemented right now. We're not talking about Skynet here. At least not yet! 

I'm not just making this stuff up either. It is right there within the patent application. After reading my explanation, please try to read the patent again and see if you can understand it better.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

I have another friend that drove a Prius C2 or whatever. The tiny one with no trunk space. They received airport runs from business travelers all day long


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> Yeah Uberbeemer already explained how the patent system works. I don't know why you are ignoring him. Well actually I do, because it completely shatters your point.
> 
> I suggest you keep learning your market as you obviously need more experience doing this
> 
> Oh here is some more anecdotal evidence for you. I was hanging out with another guy I know with a 4.98 rating and a nicer newer bigger car than mine. We were standing right next to each other and I received a ping before him. We are The same nationality and of similar age except he has everything better than me. So what's going on there? Did the customer indicate from his usage patterns that he doesn't like nice beautiful big new cars ?


Because a patent potentially might not be used does not provide evidence that Uber isn't actually using their own patent. It merely provides for a possibility. It is far more probable that they are using that patent to some degree.

In my estimate:

1. Probability that they are using a dispatch system using almost fully driver ETA with no other factors in use as discussed in the patent application = <1%

2. Probability that they are using a dispatch system using all factors discussed within patent = 10%

3. Probability that they are using a dispatch system using some factors besides ETA as discussed within dispatch patent = 90%

You and Uber Beemer seem to be claiming #1. I claim #3 as most likely what is going on with #2 as a legitimate possibility.

My supporting evidence is:

1. The patent application itself.
2. The video
3. My own anecdotal accounts as driver.
4. The anecdotal accounts of other drivers I have read.

Your supporting evidence seems to be:

1. Sometimes people overlook evidence for what they want to be true.
2. Sometimes companies file patents and do not use all things within them.

Both of those things are true but I see my position as much stronger and more specific to the situation. Despite #2 patents in general show the direction a company is considering going. This is why the news media (especially the technical media) often reports on them.



heynow321 said:


> I have another friend that drove a Prius C2 or whatever. The tiny one with no trunk space. They received airport runs from business travelers all day long


I drive a vehicle smaller than a Prius and I used to receive a lot of airport runs too. But they have died out considerably in the last six months and I noticed weirdness as early as April 2017. There are lots of factors to consider though in our anecdotal accounts such as:

- How many other drivers were near the driver within X feet/miles?
- What type of vehicle does the driver drive?
- What is the age of the vehicle?
- What about the other vehicles around? Which type and age were they (if known)
- What were their earning for the day/week relative to past averages at the time of the ping?
- What is their driver rating?
etc.

Likely I suspect if we started another topic and got a good amount of sincere contributions we would eventually discover some patterns.



heynow321 said:


> Oh here is some more anecdotal evidence for you. I was hanging out with another guy I know with a 4.98 rating and a nicer newer bigger car than mine. We were standing right next to each other and I received a ping before him. We are The same nationality and of similar age except he has everything better than me. So what's going on there? Did the customer indicate from his usage patterns that he doesn't like nice beautiful big new cars ?


How was the ping? Where was the destination and source? Which profile type was the customer/trip (for instance a business traveler going to the airport or a local person just going to work)? How much was the trip?

You bring up another point I want to make:

It likely just doesn't penalize drivers with small or older vehicles. It could also be prioritizing you for certain trips and trip profiles. For instance short trips, trips in heavy traffic, locals going to or from work. It then gives you these runs (priority) to free up the drivers in the bigger/newer vehicles for the airport trips or long distance trips.

I believe I have actually seen this. I used to mainly work early mornings in a tourist area. Somehow though I would get all the locals going to work and hardly get the airport trips, especially the long ones. I observed that Lyft often gave me 45+ trips at a rate of 3:1 versus Uber. Needless to say this was devastating for my earnings.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

The ping was a highly desirable 20+ mile select ride going from a holiday party to a wealthy part of town with an older couple. The exact type of people who would’ve preferred a nice big roomier car than mine. 

Stop living in the world of what might be possible and start paying attention to what actually happens


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> The ping was a highly desirable 20+ mile select ride going from a holiday party to a wealthy part of town with an older couple. The exact type of people who would've preferred a nice big roomier car than mine.
> 
> Stop living in the world of what might be possible and start paying attention to what actually happens


Why so much hostility and generalization (speaking of the last sentence)? My experiences ("what actually happens") are just as valid as yours.

We don't have Select here but doesn't select imply a nicer vehicle already though?

Look, I never said that bigger or newer vehicles will always get the nicer rides. I said that they will get them more often though with all other things being equal. There is a big difference. The patent details it (I'm not just making this all up). It depends on all sorts of factors. And that is the point I keep making: it's not just ETA as we were told.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> I said that they will get them more often though with all other things being equal.


and i'm telling you, with the previously posted situation, that that is not true. The other driver has a better rating, a nicer car, a better AR, and a lower cancel rate. Every possible metric you could think of he has me beat yet I got the ping.

I've also had the exact opposite happen when hanging out with some other people I know. They have smaller crappier cars than mine and they got the ping while we were sitting right next to each other.

as myself and uberbeemer have pointed out, _just b/c a patent was filed does not mean it's being used as described._


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## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

touberornottouber said:


> Oh well. At least I tried. I guess we'll see. One thing which shocked me was I put the patent url in Google and all I could find were posts here on this forum. No one else is talking about it. It could use some attention I think...


Lets face it. ubers whole business model is discrimination against drivers.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Just so you can rest, i have years of coding experience. From the olden days, with BASIC classes on an Apple II, to the esoteric DOS based WordPerfect Macro language, to DOS batch files, to PASCAL, to Visual BASIC, to VB script, and even programming in ACCESS and SQL. In addition, there is a Programming interface for a database called Concordance, which is similar to C. Oh, also, HTML and a much lesser extent XML.

I have built computers from collections of parts. I learned how to install and support Novel netware (Server OS from way back), and a bunch of other stuff. I do know a thing or two about integrating systems to create shared apps. 

When i talk about this stuff, i am not just rambling on and hoping to find google search results to support what i said.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> Even if I published source code from Uber right here detailing it you could just claim "Yeah, they created that code but it doesn't mean they actually decided to use it!"


You are mistaken. I would read it and do my best to analyze it objectively. I think if you could see the code, you will find that any of the stuff you're saying proves that uber isn't fairly distributing work because of your choice of car, is a stretch, at best.

My question earlier applies. How would the system know if a rider rated a driver poorly because of the type of car? Unless that rider always, or at least mostly, rated the drivers of Kia Souls with 1 star, there's not even a sufficient trend, and little to connect the reason for the 1 star as the type of car being a Kia.

You bet i dispute the patent as proof. And will until someone can show the source code that proves otherwise. It doesn't make sense to me that the company would worry about such nuance. The evidence abounds that they just want riders picked up fast, and taken to their destination. They talk about this machine learning as if anyone really has an age bias or gives a crap about the brand of car. Just like Pepsi wants us to relate their product to the black lives matter initiative.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

UberBeemer said:


> My question earlier applies. How would the system know if a rider rated a driver poorly because of the type of car? Unless that rider always, or at least mostly, rated the drivers of Kia Souls with 1 star, there's not even a sufficient trend, and little to connect the reason for the 1 star as the type of car being a Kia.


I'm going to focus on this as it is more constructive I think.

It doesn't. Based on my understanding of things (and some conjecture -- will explain later) from the patent document it simply uses past historical data and traits and applies a sort of modifier (together with the ETA and other factors) and then assigns the ping first to what it sees as the best driver to match the passenger and the ride.

I think maybe we are getting somewhere here. You also seem to realize that it is imperfect and that such a system might discriminate against drivers "unjustly", no? Assuming hypothetically that it were implemented and in place, can we at least agree on this much? That it would be discriminatory and not necessarily always accurate or "fair"?

I explained it previously in a different reply. I'm not sure you read it or understood it but I will explain something again in a slightly different and more plain English way:

It doesn't necessarily need to have ANY historical data for that rider (or even the driver really) in order to decide to discriminate (this means basically for our purposes to not select the driver with the fastest ETA) against a certain driver. Instead it can use profiling to categorize the trip and the customer. Then it can use past historical data related to that "profile" to determine the fitness of each driver candidate.

How might it profile a trip where it is the rider's first ride you might ask. Easily. Probably primarily based on the source and the destination addresses, but likely also due to other factors such as the time of day (and potentially a whole lot more). To put it simply we intuitively know after a trip ends usually whether this is a "airport trip", "walk of shame trip", "bar run", person going to work, person going home. Even without talking at all to the passenger it is usually quite obvious. It's mostly the same for the Uber dispatch system. It has all the information we do minus the ability to talk to the passenger or visual information.

So again the system might have decided that riders/trips who/which are placed in the "business trip, long trip, airport" are sensitive to 1. age of vehicle 2. size of vehicle 3. Luxuriousness. Again this is based on the *profile(s)* the ride and rider are assigned to, not necessarily on the rider and their own past historical data themselves (though it could and would do that too when it has that data). It then "weights" these things higher in the algorithm (actually it isn't just an algorithm but appears far more complex using machine learning) and uses them as factors for deciding who gets the ride.

So I'm telling you that it likely proactively discriminates even when it is the rider's first ride based on the profiles the rider and the trip are assigned to. It can use the hundreds of thousands of other rides from the same profile for the rider or the trip as the historical data to use as inputs.



UberBeemer said:


> Just so you can rest, i have years of coding experience. From the olden days, with BASIC classes on an Apple II, to the esoteric DOS based WordPerfect Macro language, to DOS batch files, to PASCAL, to Visual BASIC, to VB script, and even programming in ACCESS and SQL. In addition, there is a Programming interface for a database called Concordance, which is similar to C. Oh, also, HTML and a much lesser extent XML.
> 
> I have built computers from collections of parts. I learned how to install and support Novel netware (Server OS from way back), and a bunch of other stuff. I do know a thing or two about integrating systems to create shared apps.
> 
> When i talk about this stuff, i am not just rambling on and hoping to find google search results to support what i said.


Cool. I could tell you had some technical familiarity. I went to school for Computer Science. Even took a introductory A.I. course (but this was nearly 20 years ago - I'm not claiming to be active in the field!). I'm not really a coder (though I have contributed to some open source projects in the past) but I do have past experience writing algorithms for some very high traffic sites (millions of hits a day). That was using conventional algorithms to try to maximize visitors and ultimately revenue using various variables. I wrote the algorithms and also tuned them to be more efficient.

What I basically did was read the patent document and tried to visualize how I might implement it. And I can see that it is very much possible and not a pie-in-the-sky type thing. If I can see how to do it conventionally using an algorithmic approach you can bet it is more than possible using machine learning with a bunch of AI specialists earning 200k+.

You can probably see now in part why I took such an interest to that damned patent document.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

UberBeemer said:


> You're counting stand-by backups, I think. 24 are active, but point taken...
> 
> A coin flip isn't chance? Are you using a trick coin?
> 
> ...


 You missed my point. It would HAVE to be a trick coin. Just as uber is using tricks.

You don't get it. This is something I've noticed too many times for chance. But you just carry on...


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

heynow321 said:


> The ping was a highly desirable 20+ mile select ride going from a holiday party to a wealthy part of town with an older couple. The exact type of people who would've preferred a nice big roomier car than mine.
> 
> Stop living in the world of what might be possible and start paying attention to what actually happens


So now you're basing your argument on ONE trip you got?


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

touberornottouber said:


> I'm going to focus on this as it is more constructive I think.
> 
> It doesn't. Based on my understanding of things (and some conjecture -- will explain later) from the patent document it simply uses past historical data and traits and applies a sort of modifier (together with the ETA and other factors) and then assigns the ping first to what it sees as the best driver to match the passenger and the ride.
> 
> ...


I get it. Glad you are not without experience.

My field was law. Degree in legal studies, then went into a subfield known as litigation support. Since like 1997, developers have been bandying about terms like A.I., Machine Learning, Neural Networks, all mentioned in this video. I have seen dozens of similar presentations, and an equal number of demos of software products, making claims similar to this video.

What i come away with is, they talk a good game. But you have to read between the lines. This is the sort of sales pitch you use to impress investors. But going from fancy charts to actually functional systems is a tall order.

One of the larger firms i worked for was interested in a database tool that was hoping to replace our existing tool. Theirs was an enterprise class system that used SQL as a back end, and their proprietary front end. Their demo was very impressive. They wowed us with provisional patent applications for the benefit of our IP attorneys. We had our technology director and lead network engineer provide their engineers full access to our environment for almost 3 months. They could not get their software to work as advertised on our servers.

If you see stuff like this, you need to keep a critical eye and healthy sense of skepticism. Uber might be working on this stuff, but their penut butter and jelly is still proximity, demand, and service level. I would bet a weeks take that nobody is being discriminated against based on age or make and model car.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> So now you're basing your argument on ONE trip you got?


Nope. That's just one example. Tons of others that are similar


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> Why so much hostility and generalization (speaking of the last sentence)? My experiences ("what actually happens") are just as valid as yours.
> 
> We don't have Select here but doesn't select imply a nicer vehicle already though?
> 
> Look, I never said that bigger or newer vehicles will always get the nicer rides. I said that they will get them more often though with all other things being equal. There is a big difference. The patent details it (I'm not just making this all up). It depends on all sorts of factors. And that is the point I keep making: it's not just ETA as we were told.


I can't find it right now but I'm almost positive you previously posted about bad experiences with Eats. Your Eats performance might have shot yourself down with the algorithm.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

goneubering said:


> I can't find it right now but I'm almost positive you previously posted about bad experiences with Eats. Your Eats performance might have shot yourself down with the algorithm.


It's possible. You are right. I did post about that in another topic. EATS came here in early May. I opted in almost immediately. Then I realized it is mostly $4 for delivery to the door. Here we have lots of apartments (and hotels/condos on the tourist side) so going to the door for that little money is a real pain. So I have yet to take a EATS run. I always hit "No Thanks" or opt out in the preferences.

I worry about being penalized for this also. So far I cannot notice a correlation between better quality or frequency of X pings between opting out in trip preferences or just hitting no thanks. I would hope I'm not being punished for opting into Uber EATS but I wouldn't put it past Uber at all.



UberBeemer said:


> I get it. Glad you are not without experience.
> 
> My field was law. Degree in legal studies, then went into a subfield known as litigation support. Since like 1997, developers have been bandying about terms like A.I., Machine Learning, Neural Networks, all mentioned in this video. I have seen dozens of similar presentations, and an equal number of demos of software products, making claims similar to this video.
> 
> What i come away with is, they talk a good game. But you have to read between the lines. This is the sort of sales pitch you use to impress investors. But going from fancy charts to actually functional systems is a tall order.


It's true that progress has been much slower than anticipated. OTOH there have been some remarkable advances. For instance Google Now, Siri, and Alexa. These were all science fiction when I went to the University. The same for the idea of a driverless vehicle being able to travel normal roads in heavy traffic -- even at a speed of 15 mph.

Most of the work you see today is on what is called "weak AI". This includes Uber's driverless vehicles and the like. The real revolution will be with what is termed "strong AI". This is basically where the computer will be able to actually think like a person and function as one in pretty much all ways as opposed to just one or two specialized tasks. If accomplished this will likely create a radical revolution known as the Technological Singularity. 

Myself I happen to believe we could accomplish Strong AI within five years if we really focused on it. The problem is in great part that most of the research (and resources) at present focuses on weak AI.

Anyway weak AI is a lot easier to achieve and leads to results much sooner (which is why most researchers have given up on Strong AI).

In regards to Uber I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. It's not fully implemented but it's not just a standard algorithm based on ETA either. Likely things are being implemented over time and more variables are brought live into the models as they go along. The patent just lays out the general direction they were going.



> One of the larger firms i worked for was interested in a database tool that was hoping to replace our existing tool. Theirs was an enterprise class system that used SQL as a back end, and their proprietary front end. Their demo was very impressive. They wowed us with provisional patent applications for the benefit of our IP attorneys. We had our technology director and lead network engineer provide their engineers full access to our environment for almost 3 months. They could not get their software to work as advertised on our servers.
> 
> If you see stuff like this, you need to keep a critical eye and healthy sense of skepticism. Uber might be working on this stuff, but their penut butter and jelly is still proximity, demand, and service level. I would bet a weeks take that nobody is being discriminated against based on age or make and model car.


Yes there is a lot of incompetence and BS out there. As with anything in business these days often it seems to be about marketing and a sort of "fake it until you make it" type attitude. It sounds like their staff and management was just incompetent and/or the timeframe given to you was not realistic given the resources they had.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> It's possible. You are right. I did post about that in another topic. EATS came here in early May. I opted in almost immediately. Then I realized it is mostly $4 for delivery to the door. Here we have lots of apartments (and hotels/condos on the tourist side) so going to the door for that little money is a real pain. So I have yet to take a EATS run. I always hit "No Thanks" or opt out in the preferences.
> 
> I worry about being penalized for this also. So far I cannot notice a correlation between better quality or frequency of X pings between opting out in trip preferences or just hitting no thanks. I would hope I'm not being punished for opting into Uber EATS but I wouldn't put it past Uber at all.
> 
> ...


Since Uber supposedly has 500 or 600 factors for matching riders with drivers it seems almost guaranteed that your Eats acceptance rate would be one of those many tiny factors.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

goneubering said:


> Since Uber supposedly has 500 or 600 factors for matching riders with drivers it seems almost guaranteed that your Eats acceptance rate would be one of those many tiny factors.


Yeah like I said it would not surprise me. I'm considering contacting them and asking them to just take Eats off my account. But then again I like the idea of having it available should something go wrong with my vehicle such as the AC going out or where I get to the point where I want to drive but not have riders in my car. So I don't know. I'd be interesting in seeing if others notice a correlation.


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## Steve_TX (Feb 2, 2016)

heynow321 said:


> Do you understand that the passenger app is full of ghost cars ?


Are they ghost cars or are they cars from across all classes of drivers, X, XL, Lux, Select?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Noonespecial said:


> This patent explicitly says that Uber discriminates drivers based on which types of trips driver have a higher average on..... While also explicitly saying that choosing drivers can be based on letting passengers discriminate all the other stuff. This is really a fantastic thing. Some passengers might always give older drivers 5 stars, while some give younger drivers 5 stars. Some pax don't care the age of vehicle, some do. As a driver, you should want the types of pax that discriminate in your favor. It increases the likelihood that your ratings will be higher, while avoiding pax who would rate you low for crappy reasons. This type of stuff keeps pax using the service, which keeps drivers busy. Of course, this sucks if 2 drivers are the same distance from a pax, and you're the one who doesn't get the ride.... But this works both ways. We have all had it both ways, seeing drivers closer than you but you get the ride and vise versa. Consequently, this


 The patent application says absolutely no such thing. It states what the system is capable of - NOT what Uber's POLICY is in practice.


touberornottouber said:


> I thought I would mention it as it is probably important to many of us who are older and do this full time.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from a patent Uber made in regards to their dispatch system:
> 
> ...


I loved reading the patent - thanks for posting. Unfortunately the title you chose is incorrect and misleading.

Matching individuals based on their PREFERENCES is not discrimination. If it were, there would be no companies offering dating match services!

Remember that drivers are not employees but rather contractors. By definition that means Uber isn't discriminating in matching, but rather the users of the app are and that's ok because EEOC regs apply only to companies, not individuals.

However, courts have ruled that facilitating discrimination can be a criminal offense. For example, an employment agency cannot fill a search request by a client for job candidates in a protected class (such as religion, race, national origin, Etc).

In any case, I think the system and application in the patents are pretty cool. I'm just not sure why it would be patentable since services like online dating sites use exactly the same type of data collection and manipulation.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I loved reading the patent - thanks for posting. Unfortunately the title you chose is incorrect and misleading.
> 
> Matching individuals based on their PREFERENCES is not discrimination. If it were, there would be no companies offering dating match services!
> 
> ...


You're welcome. I disagree. I think the title is very much correct. I was careful in choosing it. I also think it is discrimination. I explained it before but the patent speaks about using factors proactively. This means that the rider might not necessarily ever be saying "Don't give me a driver over 35", the algorithm just assumes this based on several factors. The patent also speaks of using profiling so it possible the age discrimination could be quite aggressive.

If the end result is that drivers of a certain age get less rides without being asked whether they want those rides then it is age discrimination. Whether it is legally considered age discrimination or not is something else entirely.

This is not a dating service. I'm here to drive passengers not to date them.

As for facilitating discrimination I believe that the patent explicitly outlines the intention to do this. Worse, it does not appear that drivers are ever notified that it is going on (either collectively or individually). For instance we are not given a report at the end of the month which tells us "due to your age being over 30 you were passed over for 50 trips you otherwise would have got if you were under 30". This bothers me because the damage can be done in secret.

I really did contact the AARP over this. I have not heard anything back from them but did my part. The next thing I need to do (unless someone else does it for me) is get this up on reddit so that at least more people will see it. I've been meaning to do that but haven't yet.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> You're welcome. I disagree. I think the title is very much correct. I was careful in choosing it. I also think it is discrimination. I explained it before but the patent speaks about using factors proactively. This means that the rider might not necessarily ever be saying "Don't give me a driver over 35", the algorithm just assumes this based on several factors. The patent also speaks of using profiling so it possible the age discrimination could be quite aggressive.
> 
> If the end result is that drivers of a certain age get less rides without being asked whether they want those rides then it is age discrimination. Whether it is legally considered age discrimination or not is something else entirely.
> 
> ...


This has become close to an obsession for you which is usually not a good thing. I highly doubt you're being discriminated against because of your age. If that was really the case then we would read tons of complaints on this forum from older drivers. I actually think it's possible for older drivers to be given a slight % EDGE in the algorithm over younger drivers but that's just my off the wall guess. Like you I have zero proof.


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## SkidRow (Nov 26, 2016)

Steve_TX said:


> Are they ghost cars or are they cars from across all classes of drivers, X, XL, Lux, Select?


On a two lane road with no traffic, I've watched ghost cars pass, one after another.
It doesn't matter what class they are if there's nothing there.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

SkidRow said:


> On a two lane road with no traffic, I've watched ghost cars pass, one after another.
> It doesn't matter what class they are if there's nothing there.


They might have ghost cars but one thing I noticed is the app can be very laggy. Sometimes several minutes so it might look like they are passing by you when really they already went past you a minute and a half ago. True ghost cars seem very rare in my market but I wouldn't doubt if they are active in other markets.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

heynow321 said:


> Nope. That's just one example. Tons of others that are similar


Which is what I'm doing. Many, many nights where I see one night I go back and forth to Bar A all night. Next week same night it's restaurant B all night.



Pollo d'India said:


> How did you know which ones are ghost cars and which ones are Uber drivers spoofing?


Nowadays the uber cars in my neighborhood are real. I'm 20 miles outside of Houston. If I see one I can drive to it and see the driver sitting there. I also know where all the drivers around me live.

In the past I would see cars on the app driving by my house over and over but not one car was on my quiet street for half an hour. That's not lag.

So if you're observant you can tell. No one was spoofing cars to be in my neighborhood 2 years ago. There would be no point. And 5 cars in 20 minutes? Not a chance. Back then there were a lot fewer cars here so I think uber wanted people to think they were around. Nowadays they are everywhere, so no reason to bother with ghost cars anymore.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> The patent application says absolutely no such thing. It states what the system is capable of - NOT what Uber's POLICY is in practice.
> 
> I loved reading the patent - thanks for posting. Unfortunately the title you chose is incorrect and misleading.
> 
> ...


You can't have a restaurant and deliberately only seat black customers with black servers, even if you think your customers would prefer that. If uber does this, it's not being done because a customer WANTS it, it's an assumption based on what uber THINKS they want, based on past behavior or a profile they've created which could be completely wrong.

As a pax I don't want to be matched up on anything but proximity. Now if I am a racist I can always cancel if I want a white driver and keep getting a black one, just as a restaurant customer can always walk out if they don't like the server.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

ghost cars absolutely still exist. I watched one "drive" right by me on a road with grid lock traffic.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Which is what I'm doing. Many, many nights where I see one night I go back and forth to Bar A all night. Next week same night it's restaurant B all night.
> 
> Nowadays the uber cars in my neighborhood are real. I'm 20 miles outside of Houston. If I see one I can drive to it and see the driver sitting there. I also know where all the drivers around me live.
> 
> ...


 You're absolutely right in your examples. However you can go on to any dating site and indicate that you want only to be matched with potential companions of a certain race, religion, national origin, gender, or age... All of which are protected classes under the law. The reason that is legal is because the discrimination is by individuals, not companies. If I were a business owner and were interviewing people for my company which had more than 5 employees, then I would not be allowed to make the same types of discriminatory selections.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

heynow321 said:


> ghost cars absolutely still exist. I watched one "drive" right by me on a road with grid lock traffic.


I've tried and tried to find a real car by going to where the pins are showing in the rider app. I never found even ONE actual Uber driver so I finally stopped chasing ghosts.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Would Uber do something Unjust & Illegal !?!?


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## mikes424 (May 22, 2016)

I believe Uber would not something unjust & Illegal.

I also believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.


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## Sold My Soul For Stars (Dec 26, 2017)

heynow321 said:


> ghost cars absolutely still exist. I watched one "drive" right by me on a road with grid lock traffic.


I had one that landed right on top of me, according to the app LOL

Just sayin . . . 
https://gizmodo.com/uber-is-faking-us-out-with-ghost-cabs-on-its-passenge-1720576619


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## Julescase (Mar 29, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> I thought I would mention it as it is probably important to many of us who are older and do this full time.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from a patent Uber made in regards to their dispatch system:
> 
> ...


Uber: we never discriminate!(unless a rider needs us to)


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## mikes424 (May 22, 2016)

So to summarize.

Uber doesn't discriminate except when they do.


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