# “If You Want to Keep Your Car, You Drive”



## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/04/lyft-express-drive-coronavirus-pandemic-drivers/


> Thousands of drivers have rented vehicles through Lyft's Express Drive program, working long hours for the company to pay off weekly rental bills. Now there aren't enough rides on the road, and drivers can't pay. We talked to Lyft drivers in three cities about how they're managing the possibility of losing their cars in the middle of a pandemic.





> But for drivers, the Express Drive program has been far from ideal. Drivers complain about working punishingly long hours to cover the rental costs, even with a tiered rewards program in place to reduce the rental amount for the best-performing drivers. That rewards program was terminated earlier this year, extending drivers' hours still further. (Lyft drivers are classified as at-will independent contractors, not employees; they do not receive benefits like health insurance, nor do they receive a baseline hourly wage.)
> 
> Now, with the coronavirus pandemic prompting business shutdowns and stay-at-home orders throughout the country, Express drivers are finding that there simply aren't enough rides available to cover their rental costs. Lyft waived the twenty-ride weekly minimum in light of the crisis, and announced recently that it would try to reduce rental amounts in affected areas (although it's unclear in what areas and to what extent). Overwhelmingly, however, the company hasn't made any accommodations for Express drivers during this time, instead repeatedly insisting that if drivers cannot pay their rental amounts, they must surrender the vehicles.
> 
> We spoke to three Lyft Express Drive workers in three cities about risking their health to stay on the road and the thought of losing their vehicles in the middle of a pandemic.


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> https://jacobinmag.com/2020/04/lyft-express-drive-coronavirus-pandemic-drivers/


Sorry but supply and demand wins. Because of reasons out of the drivers' control there are less passenger rides.

A W2 job would have laid off or cut the drivers hours for them.
Independent contractor means the driver must take the initiative and do this himself.
No pity from me.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

doyousensehumor said:


> Sorry but supply and demand wins. Because of reasons out of the drivers' control there are less passenger rides.
> 
> A W2 job would have laid off or cut the drivers hours for them.
> Independent contractor means the driver must take the initiative and do this himself.
> No pity from me.


That publication isn't asking for pity for the drivers. It's making an argument for socialism, take it or leave it. I agree with your point but the implications are a lot more radical than W2 vs. independent contractor and the responsibility of an individual, company, or government.

I don't know exactly where I stand on it but I shared a socialist view on rideshare in a pandemic because otherwise it won't be shared on the News forum. I'm not sure how I feel about this particular article or about pandemics in the context of socialism. It's moving a bit fast and I don't have a strong agenda (any more than usual). This is posted mostly for diversity of perspectives, including that of drivers themselves.


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## KevinH (Jul 13, 2014)

The three examples at the bottom are very touching.


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## hottiebottie (Apr 5, 2020)

I had to return my vehicle and many others were returning theirs to, because sf was so ****ing slow there was no rides, just complete ghost town. Business is just dead and i have no car to drive,but I applied for unemployment march 28 waiting for letter in the mail they said they sent out to me, waiting for them to approve me


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

Only was commenting on article, wasn't meaning that to be directed at @waldowainthrop, in case I wasn't clear about it.



waldowainthrop said:


> That publication isn't asking for pity for the drivers.


Tomatoe, tomatoe. Drivers interviewed clearly laid out WHY they should stop driving... yet they still are. Appearently they need someone to force them to make a decision on their behalf?
It's like they are acting helpless... life doesn't work that way. Keep doing the wrong thing and it is someone else's fault? That's where my "no pity" comes from.



waldowainthrop said:


> It's making an argument for socialism, take it or leave it. I agree with your point but the implications are a lot more radical than W2 vs. independent contractor and the responsibility of an individual, company, or government.


I read the article. The only argument for socialism, is if the reader came up with that himself!

I read that, and see the solution is personal responsibility. &#129335;‍♂

Who's taking up slack for cf again? &#129529; &#128521;


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

My main feeling about this is that I think the rental programs are garbage and that drivers should have known better. But that doesn't prevent me from having empathy for other people in a tough situation. No one was planning for this. Could they have? Maybe. I'm not sure people renting are usually in a position where they have good options available to them.

It makes a bad situation way worse for people with rental cars for rideshare. I know because I've experienced it firsthand, but was lucky enough to get out of renting long before this became a problem. That wasn't foresight on my part - I was merely fortunate that I exited before it harmed me.

@doyousensehumor Everything on Jacobin is socialist, whether implicitly or explicitly.

CF insisted he wasn't socialist and I believed him, but he often posted some links that were pretty good fuel for socialist arguments.

I agree that personal responsibility is important (as does @doyousensehumor, @Mkang14, and Cold Fusion), but I prefer collective responsibility and want to see a society that has levers for that. Maybe someday 50 years from now. We're not there at all, so personal responsibility reigns.


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> CF insisted he wasn't socialist and I believed him, but he often posted some links that were pretty good fuel for socialist arguments.


The views and opinions of a link does not nessarily reflect the posters views.

I've posted news articles I don't believe with, either partially or fully. Sometimes I am highlighting my viewpoint, other times I actually leave my viewpoint out and just and intend for others to share theirs.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

doyousensehumor said:


> The views and opinions of a link does not nessarily reflect the posters views.
> 
> I've posted news articles I don't believe with, either partially or fully. Sometimes I am highlighting my viewpoint, other times I actually leave my viewpoint out and just and intend for others to share theirs.


Totally agree.

But if I post two more Jacobin articles this month, people will have questions and they'll be right!


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## Wolfgang Faust (Aug 2, 2018)

waldowainthrop said:


> https://jacobinmag.com/2020/04/lyft-express-drive-coronavirus-pandemic-drivers/


Terrible.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

When business comes back i think a lot of the drivers will just not come back.

could be real boom for those who are left once things are back to normal.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> When business comes back i think a lot of the drivers will just not come back.


This is certainly a possible outcome. What do you think those people will be doing in a year's time (assuming coronavirus risk is over and the economy is slowly recovering)?

If driving becomes more profitable and "booms" again, won't it attract people pretty quickly again? What else will they have going on that prevents them from getting back into rideshare? What will the hurdles be for getting into rideshare in 2021, especially if the economy is weak and other jobs aren't plentiful?

It's worth remembering that the "boom" times for Uber were around 2009-2014, which coincided with the recovery from a recession, but it didn't last long.


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## WAHN (May 6, 2019)

> In 2016, Lyft was struggling to expand its share of a rideshare market otherwise dominated by Uber. But there weren't enough Lyft drivers to meet demand, nor were there enough car owners willing to drive for the app, placing hard limits on the company's growth in key locales. That year, to expand its driving capacity, the company launched its "Express Drive" program, partnering with three agencies (Avis, Flexdrive, and Hertz) to provide rental cars to prospective Lyft drivers.


In other words, we don't pay well enough to entice people to grind their own vehicles into the ground, so let's create a program to bring in and trap the financially desperate.

I feel bad for plenty of people in shitty situations. I just can't accept the excuses many have. We all make choices throughout our life and those choices determine where we end up.

Although my present situation is fine as far as all my needs being met and bills being paid, my own life is far from perfect and my future is far from secure. That's my own doing based on how I've lived. I fall right in the age range of those interviewed.

Unfortunately, too many rental program drivers seem to think these vehicles are their cars.

They aren't Lyft's cars either, so why do they think Lyft can just stop charging for the rentals?


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

WAHN said:


> In other words, we don't pay well enough to entice people to grind their own vehicles into the ground, so let's create a program to bring in and trap the financially desperate.
> 
> I feel bad for plenty of people in shitty situations. I just can't accept the excuses many have. We all make choices throughout our life and those choices determine where we end up.
> 
> ...


I think the suggestion is that systemic issues are deep. People are working within a failed system. They are making terrible decisions and hoping for bailouts that may never come, but what are their other options? Personal responsibility plays a role, but what good is personal responsibility in a society where the majority of people are unable to make ends meet under normal circumstances, and now are simply crushed?

I don't have any answers here, but I think what we are looking at is the result of people flailing.

The workers who rent cars to work for Lyft are wrong to think of the rental cars as theirs (or even as Lyft's). Their lack of a systemic understanding doesn't mean what they experience isn't the real result of a systemic failure.

Magic does happen, though. Look at the bank bailouts of 2008. Look at personal bankruptcy law. Look at any country that has "safety net" social policies. Systemic failures are sometimes regarded as social ills that should be solved by "someone else". Pile up enough "personal responsibility" and you get to collective responsibility, for better or worse. &#129335;&#127996;‍♂


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> When business comes back i think a lot of the drivers will just not come back.
> 
> could be real boom for those who are left once things are back to normal.


Me thinks part timers will be logging on to app to catch up on past due bills, a flood of newbie's as unemployment creeps up, and an Uber pay cut.

All this while demand is halved. Cash striped consumers make poor customers, literally.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Me thinks part timers will be logging on to app to catch up on past due bills, a flood of newbie's as unemployment creeps up, and an Uber pay cut.
> 
> All this while demand is halved. Cash striped consumers make poor customers, literally.


And there's the other possibility. I think this is slightly more likely.

We have to ask why people start driving, or why they go back to driving after stopping. The answer is usually "I needed cash right away". If all it takes to get into rideshare is a car, the will to drive, and meeting basic standards, the market could get flooded even if some drivers lose their cars.

If the rental programs continue into the future, remember that rental cars are the option for people who have bad credit. People with bad credit who can't affordably finance a car long-term are the primary customers of Uber/Lyft rentals. Unless that rental market goes away, lots of people will continue to have that as an option if they're desperate to get into rideshare. (I know this because I've briefly rented a car for rideshare before, I've talked to renters, and I've seen firsthand who gets into it and why.)

It's hard to see into the future, but it's easy to imagine rideshare being _worse_ for supply/demand/pay in 2021 than it was in 2019, even with an economic shakeup that knocks some existing drivers out of the rideshare gig. Before this crisis, I always ran into people who were considering getting into rideshare - people who _had jobs in 2019_. Never underestimate how many people are willing to get into gig work. Millions of Americans are just a few decisions and circumstances away from becoming gig workers, even if they've never done it before.


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## WAHN (May 6, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> I think the suggestion is that systemic issues are deep. People are working within a failed system. They are making terrible decisions and hoping for bailouts that may never come, but what are their other options? Personal responsibility plays a role, but what good is personal responsibility in a society where the majority of people are unable to make ends meet under normal circumstances, and now are simply crushed?
> 
> I don't have any answers here, but I think what we are looking at is the result of people flailing.
> 
> ...


LOL, I'll get way too depressed if I try to think too deeply about this shit.

There is simply no system or structure that will ever be "fair" to all.

For better or worse, we are simply animals who have the intellect to fight off mother nature's normal avenues of maintaining balance.

The vast majority of us truly live a life of excess(some much greater than others) with the continuous industrial and technological advances.


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## DeadHeadDriver (Feb 7, 2020)

waldowainthrop said:


> ....Never underestimate how many people are willing to get into gig work. Millions of Americans are just a few decisions and circumstances away from becoming gig workers, even if they've never done it before.


Im one of the people in your example. 
Had get-by W2 job(s) that paying a little better than local living wage, but absolutely was looking for 2nd (& 3rd?) job. Enter Gig work!
Finally saved enough pennies to pay cash for rideshare eligible car in beginning of 2018. That lasted 2 rides before it broke-down and cost more to repair than it was worth. Took me another 9 months to save enough cash to buy another car for work. 
(Recouped second purchase from earnings within four months.)

Rideshare rentals are modern-day sharecroppers in Gig economy. Anybody who Rents car for Gigwork, is by definition is in a precarious economic position. (Anybody doing this 'To Meet People' still?) 
The structure of the rental agreements is predatory and shameful!


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

WAHN said:


> LOL, I'll get way too depressed if I try to think too deeply about this shit.
> 
> There is simply no system or structure that will ever be "fair" to all.


I get where you're coming from.

Conversely, thinking about solving big problems for myself, my community, and our society is the only thing that keeps from being depressed.

I don't really spend much time practicing empathy for people in situations like the ones in the article. I don't know how helpful that sort of empathy is. I prefer to think about why these things happen in the first place. Why do we accept that predatory business practices persist in our society? What more could people be capable of if they hadn't fallen into such a trap? Long ago our country did away with many of the most abusive labor practices. Change is possible.

I don't believe in utopias, but I do want to make progress on the root issues. And who's to say that we can't do better? Arguably, we're in a better position to do so now than at any point in human history. Arguably, we have already been working successfully towards goals that have improved outcomes for the average person. I'm not advocating for something as small as safety nets or bailouts, but rather for a broader social equity and unlocking of human potential. We're capable of a lot more than we are asked to do at the moment (especially now that we're stuck at home!).


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> It's worth remembering that the "boom" times for Uber were around 2009-2014, which coincided with the recovery from a recession, but it didn't last long


The rates were also significantly higher then


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

New2This said:


> The rates were also significantly higher then


Yeah, even those hoping to take advantage of a mid-2020 crash in driver supply will have to deal with the problem that passenger demand will almost certainly be lower in late 2020/early 2021, and the rates will not go up.


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> Yeah, even those hoping to take advantage of a mid-2020 crash in driver supply will have to deal with the problem that passenger demand will almost certainly be lower in late 2020/early 2021, and the rates will not go up.


I'm guessing that companies that survive will implement teleworking. Less rush hour Surge and less airport runs since business travel will be down for quite a while.

I've likely done my last ride schlepping people around.


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

I think the Jacobin prescription is to execute the executives of U/L, fix prices for rental cars at below-market prices, and require the rental companies to supply cars at that price under threat of execution.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Jon Stoppable said:


> I think the Jacobin prescription is to execute the executives of U/L, fix prices for rental cars at below-market prices, and require the rental companies to supply cars at that price under threat of execution.


Given that a lot of working class people want these things too, are we so certain that there isn't a latent demand for socialism?

Seriously though, I don't want any executions and I don't think most writers at Jacobin do either. Socialism doesn't necessarily require killing people to reform workplaces any more than any other economic ideology.


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

I returned my car. I can't afford to pay $1k a month on top of my expenses. Sucks too bc after two and a half years of renting I got an SUV that qualified for comfort, had to return it. I'm carless at the moment.


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> Given that a lot of working class people want these things too, are we so certain that there isn't a latent demand for socialism?
> 
> Seriously though, I don't want any executions and I don't think most writers at Jacobin do either. Socialism doesn't necessarily require killing people to reform workplaces any more than any other economic ideology.


Hey man, they picked their name, not this bear. Given that the French were way before Marx, and maybe Smith's _...Wealth of Nations _was just too new to have sunk in, but basically they did a bunch of violent and dumb stuff that in retrospect was obviously not going to work. It was nothing like modern democratic socialism. They lasted all of what, two bizarre Revolutionary calendar years? Why hold them up as an ideal?

Don't get me wrong, bear likes stuff for free too. But without benefit of a fiat currency, the only way to get that is to bite people


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## hottiebottie (Apr 5, 2020)

got a p said:


> I returned my car. I can't afford to pay $1k a month on top of my expenses. Sucks too bc after two and a half years of renting I got an SUV that qualified for comfort, had to return it. I'm carless at the moment.


im n that situation to u are not alone, no shame at all... im waiting for unemployment so i can get a car and maybe return to this,and get my ass to L.A. and get back to my acting


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Why hold them up as an ideal?


They don't hold the Jacobins up as an ideal. It's like if I call myself Karldo Marxthrop. It's a funny and memorable name but it doesn't mean I am in fact an acolyte of Marx.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Has anyone considered that Uber and Lyft's business plans are not sustainable?


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Bob Reynolds said:


> Has anyone considered that Uber and Lyft's business plans are not sustainable?


One step ahead of you. Me in another thread:



waldowainthrop said:


> The best thing that could come out of this situation is that the economic recession forces Uber and Lyft out of business and reshapes the private transit business. As it is constituted today, it can't be run ethically or in a socially responsible way. But I don't think this outcome should happen because the government arbitrarily reclassifies them as "non-essential" against any logical argument for it.


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## kbrown (Dec 3, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> https://jacobinmag.com/2020/04/lyft-express-drive-coronavirus-pandemic-drivers/


I would not pay. I'd just drive it until they come for it. Drive the hell out of it doing whatever I wanted and call it a day when they take it. And I'd park it someplace crazy where they have to pay a fortune to get the damn car back.


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## njn (Jan 23, 2016)

"I’m doing Postmates work now, and putting that money towards the car. I’ll have to spend $160 out-of-pocket to cover next week’s rental costs. And then the following week I’ll have to cover the whole rental cost — that’s another $236. I actually just learned Lyft ballooned that amount into a single payment of $371, which I definitely can’t afford. "

does lyft allow you to use their rentals for postmates?


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

njn said:


> does lyft allow you to use their rentals for postmates?


No, but some people do anyway.

I have talked to two Lyft renters who used their cars for Postmates and other services. I haven't looked into it but I am sure there are risks to doing that.

I think it may be impossible to use an Express Drive car for Uber, but I believe some people manage to use rentals for non-specified purposes.


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