# A record 139 taxi medallions will be offered at bankruptcy auction



## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...ns-will-be-offered-at-bankruptcy-auction/amp/









New York City's struggling yellow cabbies are facing the auction block.

A record 139 taxi medallions will be offered for sale in bankruptcy auction this month - the latest sign that a deluge of ride-sharing apps like Uber are squeezing cabbies out of business and deeper into debt, as well as pinching the incomes of for-hire drivers, according to analysts.

The medallions will be auctioned for a fraction of their original value - some likely having cost their owners as much as $1 million or more apiece.

A minimum of 20 will be sold, the auctioneers say. The collection is part of the 13,587 licensed medallions required to operate New York City's fleet of iconic yellow cabs. Back in 2013, a medallion fetched a whopping $1.3 million.

Today, prices have plunged to between $160,000 to $250,000 each, as a wave of ride-sharing vehicles floods the market.

Last year, 46 medallions were reportedly sold at an auction in Queens for an average price of $186,000, snatched up by Connecticut-based MGPE, a hedge fund presumably seeking yield on a distressed asset.

For-hire vehicles on New York's congested streets have surged from 50,000 in 2011, when Uber entered the New York market, to about 130,000 today.








Not surprisingly, earnings for yellow cabbies have fallen off the cliff - full-time average annual earnings, before taxes, are down from $45,000 as recently as 2013, to as low as $29,000 today, according to some estimates.

Uber drivers, who number about 60,000 on New York's streets at any given time, are also taking a hit from increasing competition.

Their estimated average annual earnings, pre-tax, today hover between $30,000 and $34,000. Many individual for-hire drivers earn less than an hourly worker at McDonald's.

"Uber has worked hard to grow the transportation pie, ensuring that all New Yorkers can get a ride in minutes, particularly in neighborhoods outside of Manhattan that have been long ignored by yellow taxis and underserved by public transit," said Uber in a statement. "The majority of our trips are happening in the Bronx, Staten Island, Queens and Brooklyn."


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## Pedro Paramo66 (Jan 17, 2018)

We must be proud, we are shredding the taxi industry and we are making a lot a lot of money
Lol


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Pedro Paramo66 said:


> We must be proud, we are making a lot of money
> Lol





BurgerTiime said:


> Many individual for-hire drivers earn less than an hourly worker at McDonald's.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Taxi medallions will come back.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

They are still over $100,000

For a little piece of metal that says your allowed to be a taxi.

Think about that for a second.


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## Gov Moonbeam (May 22, 2018)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> They are still over $100,000
> 
> For a little piece of metal that says your allowed to be a taxi.
> 
> Think about that for a second.


Yup. That's New York City.
Over tax, over regulate


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Gov Moonbeam said:


> Yup. That's New York City.
> Over tax, over regulate


For orlando it's about $200 a year for a single driver/single car..


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> For orlando it's about $200 a year for a single driver/single car..


Different market. In NY, before Uber, an owner operator could gross $500 per shift. No radio/data pad. All street and airport.

And just for the record, all medallions we're $1 when they were issued in the 1930s. Sure, NY and Boston made money on the extra issues from the 1980s on.
But the private sale of an old medallion does not financially benefit the cities.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

No one is going to miss them.

It was a terrible, thieving, and corrupt system.


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> No one is going to miss them.
> 
> It was a terrible, thieving, and corrupt system.


Uber or the Taxi's?


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## Tbc007 (Aug 10, 2017)

Andre Benjamin 6000 said:


> Uber or the Taxi's?


Swapping one evil for another.


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## Gov Moonbeam (May 22, 2018)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Different market. In NY, before Uber, an owner operator could gross $500 per shift. No radio/data pad. All street and airport.
> 
> And just for the record, all medallions we're $1 when they were issued in the 1930s. Sure, NY and Boston made money on the extra issues from the 1980s on.
> But the private sale of an old medallion does not financially benefit the cities.


Yup, yer right.
NYC does not over regulate or over tax.
It's an easy place to, for example, get a 36 oz Pepsi. 
Easier to get a 38 cal revolver with the numbers filed off ...


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

Tbc007 said:


> Swapping one evil for another.


See what I did there!...


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Gov Moonbeam said:


> Yup, yer right.
> NYC does not over regulate or over tax.
> It's an easy place to, for example, get a 36 oz Pepsi.
> Easier to get a 38 cal revolver with the numbers filed off ...


Was a time not too long ago you could see unspeakable acts between donkeys and humans below times Square. Bring cash.
True story!


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Gov Moonbeam said:


> Yup. That's New York City.
> Over tax, over regulate


Lol. Oh so you're one of those people that throw in buzzwords and pretend to know everything huh? "Over regulated", "corrupt", "monopoly"...


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## Gov Moonbeam (May 22, 2018)

Brooklyn said:


> Lol. Oh so you're one of those people that throw in buzzwords and pretend to know everything huh? "Over regulated", "corrupt", "monopoly"...


Yup. Thats me.
Hey, its up to you comrade. It's your home.
If you like it the way it is ... good on ya.
San Francisco is the same trip.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Gov Moonbeam said:


> Yup. Thats me.
> Hey, its up to you comrade. It's your home.
> If you like it the way it is ... good on ya.
> San Francisco is the same trip.


Most medallion sales are private, like key fees for lofts.
That's private enterprise. Apparently you are anti capitalism...


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Gov Moonbeam said:


> Yup. Thats me.
> Hey, its up to you comrade. It's your home.
> If you like it the way it is ... good on ya.
> San Francisco is the same trip.


Explain to me what you "know" about the regulation of the taxi industry.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Andre Benjamin 6000 said:


> Uber or the Taxi's?


LMAO !
6 of one
1/2 dozen of the other.

At LEAST

INDEPENDANT TAXI COMPANIES

WERE AMERICAN OWNED !


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## Cdub2k (Nov 22, 2017)

people paid $1,000,000 just to be able to drive a taxi?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Andre Benjamin 6000 said:


> Uber or the Taxi's?


The taxi's are still generations ahead at the aforementioned.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Cdub2k said:


> people paid $1,000,000 just to be able to drive a taxi?


A taxi in NYC had the potential before Uber to gross $200,000 annually. So you and your brother immigrate from the Ukraine and do what? Work a warehouse for $20 per hour? Or borrow the money from your uncle, the Ukrainian gangster?
People don't come to America to struggle in poverty.


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## Michael1230nj (Jun 23, 2017)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Taxi medallions will come back.


How will they come back? Under what Scenario?



Cdub2k said:


> people paid $1,000,000 just to be able to drive a taxi?


No they were purchased by funds and leased to Drivers the increase in the price was based on the return.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Michael1230nj said:


> How will they come back? Under what Scenario?
> 
> No they were purchased by funds and leased to Drivers the increase in the price was based on the return.


A realistic scenario. Uber loses 3 billion dollars per year. Uber churns 96% of new drivers in one year or less.
Unsustainable.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Cdub2k said:


> people paid $1,000,000 just to be able to drive a taxi?


a Transferable limited permit to drive a taxi... and yes. But a cool mil was the peak of peaks..

You need to know that it also doesn't turn into a pumpkin when you die or retire, and you can also charge other people to use your car. they also hold a value.

The idea (was) that you can borrow money to buy one, get in rent controlled housing, share your car/medallion with your brother in law, and 30 years down the road you can SELL IT for MORE THAN YOU PAID and go retire in Winter Park Florida.

Or a cab company had a dozen medallions on the books and that allowed them to have a dozen cabs. If they wanted more cabs they needed more medallions.. BUT they could also borrow against 1 medallion and buy 12 new taxis if they needed to. It was a literal piggy bank they could borrow against.

Bad insurance claim?

Put up a medallion as collateral and pay it back over a few years.

Get cancer?
Borrow against your medallion..

Up until uber showed up, medallions where one of the most stable things you could ever invest in.

NYC uber drivers have higher rates than everyone else, and are blessed to be in NYC with the large density of business and drastically reduced empty miles. they can pull in $1000+ (it would be great if a NYC uber driver could jump in here) a week easy. A NYC cab driver in the good ol days was pulling $400 a night, $700 on friday/saturday for THOUSANDS a week.

Back in the day, all you needed was a proper car off the TLC list of approved cars and a medallion and you could hit Manhattan and not even an idiot couldn't find customers, they would wave their arms at you...



TwoFiddyMile said:


> Taxi medallions will come back.


I'm still not sure...

We'll know 3 months after the uber IPO

Either, or uber will pull itself out of the fire and start operating as a professional profit generating business that treats it's drivers as valuable partners, or the ride sharing scam will reveal itself to be a complete house of cards and burns to the ground.

Uber could raise it's price, turn it's finances around, and be a better opportunity than driving for cab companies again.

If i could make *reasonably close* to what i make driving a taxi, i would probably not bother driving a taxi anymore.

But if uber takes 3/4ths of the fares, and charges just as much as the taxis, and kills surges.. they WILL FIND they don't have any drivers and can't keep any long enough to get any experience at the job. (and have less customers because a lot of people can't afford their $30 daily ride that only cost $10 the week before)


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## Michael1230nj (Jun 23, 2017)

I also believe Uber is Unsubstainable But rideshare and App based Service is here to stay. Yellow Cabs are going the way of the Stagecoach.


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> A taxi in NYC had the potential before Uber to gross $200,000 annually. So you and your brother immigrate from the Ukraine and do what? Work a warehouse for $20 per hour? Or borrow the money from your uncle, the Ukrainian gangster?
> People don't come to America to struggle in poverty.


Was going to say the same... someone said $500 a shift, so 1mill into 500 means you are debt free in like 5 years and then it's all profit baby. Heck yeah I would borrow from gangsters to get in on that.... I would like to know how many will have a cool million after driving for uber.


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## REDcarpete (Aug 2, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> a Transferable limited permit to drive a taxi... and yes. But a cool mil was the peak of peaks..
> 
> You need to know that it also doesn't turn into a pumpkin when you die or retire, and you can also charge other people to use your car. they also hold a value.
> 
> ...


Great post, you put the whole story together.


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> The taxi's are still generations ahead at the aforementioned.


You failed to answer my question.

Who's terrible, thieving & corrupt? Uber or the Taxi's?

Or are we rooting for the lesser of two evils?


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

REDcarpete said:


> Great post, you put the whole story together.


 What don't i know?

There's a whole PR team feeding me stuff after all. With just enough bad spelling to make you belive i'm still a rando on the interweb.



Andre Benjamin 6000 said:


> You failed to answer my question.
> 
> Who's terrible, thieving & corrupt? Uber or the Taxi's?
> 
> Or are we rooting for the lesser of two evils?


I'm going for the one that reliably gets me over min wage.

Min wage here (in profit) comes to $99 a shift in profit, which isn't my average for the year (2018) it's my LOW for the year.

I can't even make uber show a profit anymore here..

It should be clear who i'm going for.
(one time a few years back, i fell asleep for 5 hours and barely broke even, but i blame myself on that)


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Most medallion sales are private, like key fees for lofts.
> That's private enterprise. Apparently you are anti capitalism...


It's laughable for you to try to link medallions to private enterprise and capitalism

Medallions are the antithesis of free enterprise.

Medallions don't exist in free markets.

Medallions are instruments of govt-enforced monopolies and cartels, which PREVENT free enterprise.

The buying and selling of medallions is no more capitalistic than criminals buying and selling stolen goods.



TwoFiddyMile said:


> A realistic scenario. Uber loses 3 billion dollars per year. Uber churns 96% of new drivers in one year or less.
> Unsustainable.


The 96% turnover is very sustainable as long as we continue to allow high rates of Third World immigrants into this country.

The supposed $3 billion losses are totally unproven.



Andre Benjamin 6000 said:


> You failed to answer my question.
> 
> Who's terrible, thieving & corrupt? Uber or the Taxi's?
> 
> Or are we rooting for the lesser of two evils?


Both industries are corrupt, but fuber's worse.

Fuber's much more dangerous to our liberty than the taxi industry ever was.



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> a Transferable limited permit to drive a taxi... and yes. But a cool mil was the peak of peaks..
> 
> You need to know that it also doesn't turn into a pumpkin when you die or retire, and you can also charge other people to use your car. they also hold a value.
> 
> ...


Reading your description of how the medallion system has operated is a study in corruption, and explains how a Frankenstein like fuber was created.

Literally millions of would-be taxi owners were denied their dream of owning their own taxi, and tens of millions of customers were forced to pay artificially high prices for inferior service in order for millionaire medallion barons to become billionaires, and individual medallion owners to leech their way into rent-controlled housing, and retire with their ill gotten loot to Florida. Absolutely corrupt.

Fuber's already raised prices considerably with upfront pricing.

Fuber will continue to have all the drivers it needs as long as the high rates of Third World immigration continue.



Pedro Paramo66 said:


> We must be proud, we are shredding the taxi industry and we are making a lot a lot of money
> Lol


The medallion system should never have been created in the first place.

A free taxi market would mean the end of fuber, and I say good riddance to both medallions and fuber.



TwoFiddyMile said:


> Different market. In NY, before Uber, an owner operator could gross $500 per shift. No radio/data pad. All street and airport.
> 
> And just for the record, all medallions we're $1 when they were issued in the 1930s. Sure, NY and Boston made money on the extra issues from the 1980s on.
> But the private sale of an old medallion does not financially benefit the cities.


If I'm not mistaken, NYC collects a hefty fee every time a medallion changes hands.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> It's laughable for you to try to link medallions to private enterprise and capitalism
> 
> Medallions are the antithesis of free enterprise.
> 
> ...


You are mistaken. NYC takes no percentage of private medallion transfers other than sales tax, and that goes to the state.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> You are mistaken. NYC takes no percentage of private medallion transfers other than sales tax, and that goes to the state.


According to NYC website there's a 5% transfer tax


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> According to NYC website there's a 5% transfer tax


It's a tax as I said. Although I'm not pro tax, it's unrealistic to expect to not pay tax on a registered sale.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> It's a tax as I said. Although I'm not pro tax, it's unrealistic to expect to not pay tax on a registered sale.


That particular tax goes to NYC, not the state, so that's a hefty windfall from every medallion sale.


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## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

Who cares what taxi medallions sell for in NYC? It has nothing to do with those of us who drive rideshare.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> That particular tax goes to NYC, not the state, so that's a hefty windfall from every medallion sale.


Lol. If you have a JOB in NYC, prepare to tithe 10% to NYC annually. Yes, they even have their own income tax.
Taxes are a way of life in the Apple.


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Taxi medallions will come back.





Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> They are still over $100,000
> 
> For a little piece of metal that says your allowed to be a taxi.
> 
> Think about that for a second.


What the hell is a medallion?

A business license?

If so why don't they just call it that?


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Cableguynoe said:


> What the hell is a medallion?
> 
> A business license?
> 
> If so why don't they just call it that?


Because it's a flat piece of aluminum, hence "medallion".


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Most medallion sales are private, like key fees for lofts.
> That's private enterprise. Apparently you are anti capitalism...


While the sales are private, their worth is completely contingent on outside government interference (i.e, regulation). If NYC would completely deregulate driving for hire, then they would be just pieces of aluminum. I'm not arguing for or against that regulation here, just pointing out that their worth is contingent on government regulation, and not a result of unhindered fee market capitalism.


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## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> A realistic scenario. Uber loses 3 billion dollars per year. Uber churns 96% of new drivers in one year or less.
> Unsustainable.


It's actually 97% now lol


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Cableguynoe said:


> What the hell is a medallion?
> 
> A business license?
> 
> If so why don't they just call it that?


It's also transferable, sell-able, limited in quantity, and inheritable.



Nats121 said:


> It's laughable for you to try to link medallions to private enterprise and capitalism
> 
> Medallions are the antithesis of free enterprise.
> 
> ...


Well.. the problem is. Before the medallions there was a severe glut of taxis in NYC city. Like really bad severe... There was way too many people trying to do it and there was no distinction between any of them. Those days are so far behind NYC that... no one is alive from back then.

But you need to understand this. Even today with the death of the taxi predicted by many, these buggers are STILL worth over $100,000.

And most cities in the US don't have a medallion system, and they only have these ridiculous values in NYC.

In most cities they were less than $100,000 before the days of uber. They didn't come close in value to the NYC medallion. And they still don't.

I dug up documents on a loan i almost got for a philadelphia taxi medallion (i used to live there, i've lived in a LOT of places around the US)

I was approved for a $350,000 loan for a philadelphia medallion, with $100,000 down payment. (with the medallion as collateral)

I'm actually really really glad i never bought it.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...ns-will-be-offered-at-bankruptcy-auction/amp/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So annoying - it's always the same stupid PR statement from them. Who believes this crap?

Yay, you service these areas, and you do it by paying your drivers less than minimum-wage.

It's kind of like their other statements about sexual assault, murders, etc.

Umm, it gets old when nothing ever changes - shut up already.

So you service the outskirts of a city, huh? I'm sorry, but righting a wrong doesn't make everything else right.

Taxicabs may not have always been the best, but that's not a fair statement. There were taxicabs that smelled good; had safe, courteous drivers; drivers that didn't run up the meter, etc. - I know because I've been in a few of them. The point is, those cab drivers were charging a required amount, and the amount was in line with the cost of a mediation. And while it was expensive to take a cab, my other point is this: Uber and Lyft would not have been able to survive if they didn't misclassify their drivers.

Similarly, they probably wouldn't have survived if they were forced to play by the same rules as a taxicab - a cap on cars, a higher rate, etc.

Uber and Lyft didn't play fair, and they did it by bribing officials with lobbyists, etc. At a minimum, taxicabs should no longer be regulated - the government clearly doesn't care if Uber or Lyft are.

A technology company? Give me a break. A cab is a cab. If anything, Uber and Lyft really have it coming. When scooters, electric bikes and AI cars take over, Uber and Lyft will have lots of competition, and since they're just a middleman, expect them to get cut out.

Just my two cents.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Trump Economics said:


> So annoying - it's always the same stupid PR statement from them. Who believes this crap?
> 
> Yay, you service these areas, and you do it by paying your drivers less than minimum-wage.
> 
> ...


yup..

personally i suspect AI cars to take over *most* of the for-hire business. Not even fleet run vehicles either.

Let's say Bob owns a car
These are all daily scenerios i run into that Bob (or someone close to Bob) would have to call an uber/taxi for that in the future they wouldn't.

Bob goes out drinking..

Bob doesn't want to get a (another) DUI

TODAY Bob has to hire a vehicle to drive him,

Tom arrow Bob can push the App on his Toyota app on is cell phone and his car is summoned from the parking garage, it pulls up, and he can pass out in the comfort of his own car.

Now it's Monday morning, Bob needs to get to the airport but doesn't want to deprive his wife of the only family car. And his wife has to get the kids off to school, so she can't take the time anyway.

Today Bob calls an uber or a taxi
OR
Tomarrow Bob can set his car in SDV mode and take him to the airport (or drive it himself) and kick it back into SDV mode and drive it back home so his wife can go grocery shopping, or get to work, or pickup the kids or whatever..

Let's say Bob's household only has one car. Because that's what they can afford.

TODAY Bob's wife Amy needs to call 4 one way uber rides per week based on their schedule.

TOMARROW Bob can use the car and set it into SDV mode to drive to his wife to take her to work 2 hours later, then drive to pick him up while his wife is still at work.

TODAY Bob's best friend, Joe went out drinking. It's 2:00 AM and Joe wants to go home. Joe has to call a taxi or an uber cause he's way to drunk to get home, he doesn't have the balls to even ASK Bob for a ride.

TOMMORROW Joe sends Bob a text asking him to send Joe his SDV. Bob stays in bed and has to neither put on pants or even get out of bed in order to give Joe a ride, then Joe will stuff $10 in his glove box for gas/whatever.

How many times do you run into someone who *could* drive themselves beyond that they were intoxicated, their spouse had the car, or they were trying to save airport parking?

That right there is a LOT of the daily rideshare/taxi business the locals do here.

OH and let's not forgot those with disabilities who can afford a car but are medically unable to drive one.

There goes the disabled communities contribution to the for-hire industry.

Ted (he's 100% legally blind) takes 15+ uber rides per week today,
Tomarrow he can buy an SDV and take 0.

What's left will be the scum of the Earth, and yall know who I am talking about... that and tourists...

SDVS will kill the for-hire industry, but it's not gonna be a money tree for anyone but the car manufacturers.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

reg barclay said:


> While the sales are private, their worth is completely contingent on outside government interference (i.e, regulation). If NYC would completely deregulate driving for hire, then they would be just pieces of aluminum. I'm not arguing for or against that regulation here, just pointing out that their worth is contingent on government regulation, and not a result of unhindered fee market capitalism.


Say what? LOL. Who do you propose is regulating the private auctions? Did you realize these sell at auction? Do you know how an auction works?
Surely the city generated new medallion sales/auctions ARE regulated. If you read closely all my posts in this thread steer clear of city new medallion sales. Private auctions are not regulated. It's free market enterprise.

Now, you and I agree on something here. These cities NEVER should have allowed for the sale of a government issued permit. Since they have been turning a blind eye to these sales since 1932 however, it would be criminal to deregulate without buying back the capital these "owners" have invested in their tin.
I'm all for the enormous buyback of medallions. Indeed this is what should have happened the second NYC cut the throats of the medallion owners and legalized Uber.
I've "owned" medallions in two non saleable medallion cities. It's a better system. I pay about $100 per year per medallion for the usage.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> S
> I've "owned" medallions in two non saleable medallion cities. It's a better system. I pay about $100 per year per medallion for the usage.


I don't consider that the same thing,

My annual permits for Orange and Osceola counties (Disney Florida straddles the two counties) was in the $300ish range per year for a single car/single driver. With about $500 for the first year, that's less than $1.00 per day, which is way less than the $10+ per shift i rack up in tolls.

It's not the same thing. I didn't have to get it in an auction, i didn't have to put up a loan to buy it... not remotely the same thing.

I do however agree, a medallion buyback is in order for NYC chicago, Philly, San Francisco ect.

However for somewhere like Orlando no buyback is in order at all. As the amount is such a pittance anyway.

Also Orlando tried like heck to protect the taxis and it all failed miserably due to uber's underhandedness.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Private auctions are not regulated. It's free market enterprise.
> .


I didn't say the auctions were government regulated. I said that the worth of the medallions being sold there, hinges on government regulation.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

reg barclay said:


> I didn't say the auctions were government regulated. I said that the worth of the medallions being sold there, hinges on government regulation.


You are backpedalling at increasing speeds. The auctions start at the past mean price for a medallion from the most recent auction. Then, the sky is the limit.

Perhaps the gubment SHOULD have regulated said auctions. Then the prices would not have exceeded one million dollars.
The highest price I recall (idiots) spending on a Boston medallion was around $775,000. Seriously? It ain't NY. In the best of times you could do $300 if you worked 14 hours and had some luck.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> You are backpedalling at increasing speeds.


Not backpedaling at all, my original post on this thread was:


reg barclay said:


> While the sales are *private*, their worth is completely contingent on outside government interference (i.e, regulation).


Which is the same as what I just said:


reg barclay said:


> I didn't say the auctions were government regulated. I said that the worth of the medallions being sold there, hinges on government regulation.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

reg barclay said:


> Not backpedaling at all, my original post on this thread was:
> 
> Which is the same as what I just said:


No. Government interference would do any of the following:
NEGATE the value
FREEZE the value
SET the value.

The medallion market has always set it's own value (from the day after the first one was sold for $1 by the city itself).


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

Good riddance. The taxi business model is obsolete. You might as well invest in buggy whip futures.

Also fighting the tide are the folk who regulate taxis. No he'll hath fury like a bureaucrat scorned. These parasites are trying to worm their way into the rideshare business.

It's easy to make money when you can call on governmental force to protect your monopoly. Take that away and the house of cards falls.


----------



## 3.75 (Sep 29, 2017)

Michael1230nj said:


> How will they come back? Under what Scenario?
> 
> No they were purchased by funds and leased to Drivers the increase in the price was based on the return.


Long term, I don't think Uber or Lyft are sustainable. You have a bunch of amateur drivers that rely on GPS to take total strangers around and quit once they get fed up of working long hours for little pay relative to the wear and tear on the car. Not to mention that Uber and Lyft can and will deactivate drivers in short notice without reason.

Medallions may never reach $1m but they will hold some sort of value until Uber or Lyft relaunch as a national cab company with employees and regulations


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> People don't come to America to struggle in poverty.


Apparently not true. They still believe MJK's speach this being "The Promise Land." Trump is showing this is not true anymore.


----------



## DelaJoe (Aug 11, 2015)

It will get worse for the cabbies when the automated cars hit NYC. These will be dispatched from a parking lot full of cars. These cars will run for 6 hours and then get refueled and sent out again. Automated cars require no sleep and no breaks. Automated cars don't need to be tipped.

You don't see any Blockbuster Video stores anymore...technology changes the way the world works.


----------



## 45821 (Feb 15, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> No one is going to miss them.
> 
> It was a terrible, thieving, and corrupt system.


And uber is a lot better? It is a good solution for people that want to gap their finances, in other words it is better solution than payday loans stores.



Cdub2k said:


> people paid $1,000,000 just to be able to drive a taxi?


Yes, remember those taxis were driven 24/7, if not by the owner then by lessee. The owner was able to make $1000 per day owning a medallion.


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## Blatherskite (Nov 30, 2016)

BurgerTiime said:


>


NYC cabbies have steering wheels on the right and speed limits are in kph?



Bon Jovi said:


> And uber is a lot better? It is a good solution for people that want to gap their finances, in other words it is better solution than payday loans stores.


TNCs disintermediated the dispatchers and payday-loan stores disintermediated the knee-cappers. Hey, both types of these sterling organizations are run by legitimate businessmen, ya see?


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

BurgerTiime said:


> It's actually 97% now lol


Without a doubt I believe this number, but wondering what your source is for it.


----------



## moJohoJo (Feb 19, 2017)

Andre Benjamin 6000 said:


> Uber or the Taxi's?


Perfect comment ! We already know who is or is not corrupt .


----------



## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

KenLV said:


> Without a doubt I believe this number, but wondering what your source is for it.


*97% of drivers don't last a year. Up %1 from the previous years. The main reasons: #1- Incentives dry up, #2-Taxes and expenses; realize true operating cost @ break even or in most cases a loss for the year: #3- Rising fuel cost with no offset in pay/earnings. #4- Surge has become worthless and unpredictable: 
https://www.theinformation.com/articles/how-uber-will-combat-rising-driver-churn
& 
http://www.whosdrivingyou.org/blog/top-five-reasons-not-to-drive-for-uber


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

The medallions are an issue separate from the taxis themselves.

Medallions are the permits that allow the taxi to operate. Here's what that meant:

Thomas Sowell - the noted economist who once drove a cab - has explained the legitimate interest the government has regarding cabs. Insured and safe. Period.

Yet the taxi authorities, with the enthusiastic support of those holding the permits (medallions), make abusing their power the main activity. The ONLY focus becomes restricting the market, reducing competition for the existing medallion holders.

"The Business" loves it. They get to charge outrageous rates. The authorities get nice pensions and get to flaunt their power. (The abuse of power is always in the right hands) .
Who loses? The customers, who can't find a ride, or afford one. The drivers lose, paid peanuts and scorned. 

IMO Uber was created specifically to destroy this corrupt model - and it's working.

Free markets work every time they're tried.


----------



## BOScusdriver (Jan 11, 2017)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> They are still over $100,000
> 
> For a little piece of metal that says your allowed to be a taxi.
> 
> Think about that for a second.


What a terrible and obsolete investment.


----------



## Zap (Oct 24, 2016)

A previous poster indicated a NY 5% transfer tax on medallions. So, a curious creature that I am, wondered just how much "medallion transfer tax" was collected by NY in 2017.

I couldn't find what I was looking for but stumbled upon this: New York's Taxi King Pleads Guilty To Tax Fraud (MAY 22, 2018 @ 10:10 PM)

_New York Attorney General Barbara D. Underwood and Acting Commissioner of Taxation and Finance Nonie Manion have announced that New York's so-called "Taxi King" has pleaded guilty to tax fraud. Evgeny "Gene" Freidman, a Russian immigrant, pleaded guilty to a single count of criminal tax fraud, agreeing that he failed to remit $5 million in MTA surcharge taxes between 2012 and 2015._

_"Today, the 'Taxi King' admitted that he built his empire by stealing from New Yorkers," said Attorney General Underwood. _​


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## Yam Digger (Sep 12, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Was a time not too long ago you could see unspeakable acts between donkeys and humans below times Square. Bring cash.
> True story!


Now you can view those same unspeakable acts on the internet for free.


----------



## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Yam Digger said:


> Now you can view those same unspeakable acts on the internet for free.


I'm proud to say I've never seen it either place.


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## Patrick R Oboyle (Feb 20, 2018)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> They are still over $100,000
> 
> For a little piece of metal that says your allowed to be a taxi.
> 
> Think about that for a second.


"Rideshare medallion"

Just wait.. Its coming.
We already need a speacile tnc license to pickup at the airport.


----------



## hanging in there (Oct 1, 2014)

Tbc007 said:


> Swapping one evil for another.


"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"


----------



## Downtownscooter (Jun 19, 2018)

Karen Stein said:


> The medallions are an issue separate from the taxis themselves.
> 
> Medallions are the permits that allow the taxi to operate. Here's what that meant:
> 
> ...


Can't afford a ride, take a bus or train. Your passport doesn't come with a guaranteed right to a private car with private driver.


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## yogi bear (Dec 25, 2015)

here in melbourne, aus, they (taxi plates; aka medallions) peaked at $500,000 back in 2011, they had limited about 4000 cabs on the road then.

they deregulated at the start of this year and compensated plate (medallion) owners $150.000 for the first plate, $50.000 for the 2nd, and $0.00 for third and subsequent, now to run a taxi its $52 a year for the licence, there are 8000 on the road. (plus 30,000 ubers)

no one makes a real living anymore, or very few.


----------



## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

Cdub2k said:


> people paid $1,000,000 just to be able to drive a taxi?


It was an investment like Tulips were in Holland.


----------



## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

Personally I have spent a lot of time in cabs. 
With rare exceptions the experience was a standard terrible. 

Corrupt drivers that would not take a credit card until you told him you needed another cab if he didn't take AMEX.... which my company paid for. 

I have been in two minor accidents in cabs. In both cases the cabbie was on the phone for the entire trip speaking a foreign language. 

I had a Las Vegas cabbie try to dump me when he heard of more lucrative business elsewhere. I threatened to call his boss to get it straightened out. I got to my hotel.

The cab companies have been providing terrible service since the horse and buggy days. 
The Livery and Medallion owners have been ripping off cabbies in a big way for decades. 

It is little wonder that the public jumped on the first reasonable alternate form of transportation. 

A nice clean car that costs 1/3rd the price of a cab with an English speaking driver. 
It was a slam dunk.


----------



## Michael1230nj (Jun 23, 2017)

dmoney155 said:


> Was going to say the same... someone said $500 a shift, so 1mill into 500 means you are debt free in like 5 years and then it's all profit baby. Heck yeah I would borrow from gangsters to get in on that.... I would like to know how many will have a cool million after driving for uber.


I knew guys who went broke buying meddalions at $15.000 Driving a Yellow is Pure Hell I doubt any Driver Purchased a Meddalion once it went above 200 grand or so. The reason it skyrocketed was that funds purchased the tins leased them out and the returns were much higher then Bsnk Interest. No one foresaw Uber's impact so here we are.


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## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

Michael1230nj said:


> No one foresaw Uber's impact so here we are.


And there they go...and nobody cares.

Really -- *NOBODY cares about cabs* except taxi trolls on UP. You don't see Zoo Yawkers rioting in the streets over the loss of their precious cab industry do you? Nobody cares.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> yup..
> 
> personally i suspect AI cars to take over *most* of the for-hire business. Not even fleet run vehicles either.
> 
> ...


None of this is going to happen on any scale.

Individual car ownership will still be a hassle and will eventually cost too much. Few are going to want to pay significantly more when a for-hire SDC is minutes away at all times.


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

You would figure uber would buy the medallions and just sit on them taking cabs off the streets, so they can lose more money on pool lol


----------



## everythingsuber (Sep 29, 2015)

RockinEZ said:


> Personally I have spent a lot of time in cabs.
> With rare exceptions the experience was a standard terrible.
> 
> Corrupt drivers that would not take a credit card until you told him you needed another cab if he didn't take AMEX.... which my company paid for.
> ...


I seem to have missed something.
http://www.whosdrivingyou.org/

Reality is Uber attracts a far worse


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

And sponsored and paid for cab drivers lol. 

It's funny though cause all the bad reputation cab drivers created for themselves and basically made uber and now uber drivers is heading the same direction.

When I am older I wonder if a self driving car rapes a service dog


----------



## everythingsuber (Sep 29, 2015)

Kodyhead said:


> And sponsored and paid for cab drivers lol.
> 
> It's funny though cause all the bad reputation cab drivers created for themselves and basically made uber and now uber drivers is heading the same direction.
> 
> When I am older I wonder if a self driving car rapes a service dog


Regardless sponsors every incidence is real.
This is what Uber is. 
Uber survives because people like free stuff and Uber offers the public gullible drivers to be taken advantage of.


----------



## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

All I am saying is can drivers have reputations too, dont act like cab drivers have been choir boys the whole time. Or think that can drivers are better or any different, it's basically the same people. I'm sure uber drivers can make a list of incidents of cab drivets it's just that no one cares lol

Funny thing is majority of full time uber drivers are former cab drivers and are the same people in my market, pretty confident it's the same in a lot of other markets.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> yup..
> 
> personally i suspect AI cars to take over *most* of the for-hire business. Not even fleet run vehicles either.
> 
> ...


Was ANYTHING i said positive for taxis,
Did i say that taxis would reclaim the position they held before?

No i did not..

ALL of the above will spell the same end for taxis as it does for uber/lyft.

Another possibility i see is hotels buying a few of these suckers and renting them out to their guests, why not right?

No i expect all of this to be the final nail in the head of taxis as well as to uber, Taxis will become nothing more than 8 self driving puke boxes per city taking advantage of tourists and everyone who can't afford a car, and people will barely be able to stand the smell.

Ridesharing on the other hand will die as the super majority of for-hire business will be relegated to the scum of the earth and the tourist, and the desperate who can't get anyone to pick up the phone a tiny minuscule fraction of what it currently is, or even was before the days of uber.

My prediction is the death of the entire for-hire industry as we know it.

2:00 AM bar call?
no more..

airport runs?
Almost none,

I've been pondering my response on this all day, it might be good that uber is killing the taxis off... giving us more time to get a real job, cause we all know if uber is the future there's no money to be made, and if self driving cars are the future, doubly so.

Replacing us all with part times will drastically lessen the blow.

The problems of taxis are creeping into uber, one problem at a time.

As uber raises rates to profitability, car ownership is getting more affordable relative to personal car ownership.

Anywhere in america that parking is available, for-hire vehicles will disappear.

Which is in fact, the vast majority of America.


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## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

This whole industry is ticking lol, as much fun as I am having with it, and the money is comfortable for now, I am always looking for something different. I have been fortunate that it has allowed me to be patient and able to decline offers of i can negotiate what I want.

But we are all on the same social class and floor on the titanic lol somewhere near the bottom floor, maybe above the employees and the icebergs coming.

The only temp future you have is moving to areas where there is no uber but we are all dead soon


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Kodyhead said:


> This whole industry is ticking lol, as much fun as I am having with it, and the money is comfortable for now, I am always looking for something different. I have been fortunate that it has allowed me to be patient and able to decline offers of i can negotiate what I want.
> 
> But we are all on the same social class and floor on the titanic lol somewhere near the bottom floor, maybe above the employees and the icebergs coming.
> 
> The only temp future you have is moving to areas where there is no uber but we are all dead soon


I'll pass, north Korea sucks.. uber is everywhere else.


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## YouEvenLyftBruh (Feb 10, 2018)

Don't do it folks!

Look this is just a theory, based on zero facts, but I suspect these so called "Taxi Driver Suicides" are not suicides buy mob hits.

Everyone in NYC knows that Taxi Medallions are controlled by the mafia. It makes logical sense that when you borrow money, aka "buy" a medallion, from the mob, and fail to pay, you get killed.

Meanwhile, the FBI is busy investigating Russian Trolls,


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## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

I think the mafia have much better business than cabs lol


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## bandit13 (Mar 31, 2017)

Pedro Paramo66 said:


> We must be proud, we are shredding the taxi industry and we are making a lot a lot of money
> Lol


You're are Kidding !


----------



## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Kodyhead said:


> I think the mafia have much better business than cabs lol


You'd be very very surprised.

Just to give an example.. one of Pablo Escobar's biggest money laundering front businesses while he was growing was a cab service.

You'd be shocked at the weird businesses the mob is in.


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## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

Money laundering seems to be trickier now as cashflow has switched to credit cards better off with fake rental properties with brand new construction from suppliers manufacturers building and of course ghost rentals.

Are they still selling out concerts in less than a second so they can resellntickets?


----------



## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Kodyhead said:


> Money laundering seems to be trickier now as cashflow has switched to credit cards better off with fake rental properties with brand new construction from suppliers manufacturers building and of course ghost rentals.
> 
> Are they still selling out concerts in less than a second so they can resellntickets?


Rental properties are harder to manipulate in price.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Brooklyn said:


> You'd be very very surprised.
> 
> Just to give an example.. one of Pablo Escobar's biggest money laundering front businesses while he was growing was a cab service.
> 
> You'd be shocked at the weird businesses the mob is in.


Allowing credit cards took a huge bite out of the money laundering game. Also the mandating of 1099s caused taxi drivers to actually pay taxes and properly report their revenue and expenses to the IRS. It's a lot harder than it used to be to use a taxi for money laundering purposes.

for example...

Back in the day..

Pablo could charge $50 per day to rent a taxi, but on HIS books the taxi costs $150 to rent, and now magically you have $100 of dirty cash going to clean cash. This only worked because the drivers wern't telling the IRS jack and letting Pablo write down whatever he wanted.

NOW

that same taxi driver is reporting $230 in revenue to the IRS, while writing off $85 in costs ($50 to the cab company), And Pablo has no opportunity to mix in his dirty money with the clean money.

To make matters worse, back in the day Pablo could even "rent" out taxis by the shift, while they are just sitting parked in the lot. Each time he did that he could could in theory take the entire $150 of dirty money and woosh... right into good clean accounts.

If the IRS audited Pablo, they could pull each credit card terminals records and... they will see that a car that's generating cash business isn't bringing in anything at all.

Electronic meters also make "fake" shifts almost impossible to do. Give me 5 minutes and a $4 calculator I can create a fake trip sheet that looks convincing, however if it was based on nothing.. electronic records would give me away in about 2 seconds.

Back in the day, a fake trip sheet with $250 in revenue would be impossible to disprove, Real drivers, taking out cabs that really exist, on trips that never happened.

now a good audit of meter records and GPS records? That can point out when cabs are really parked or not and blow the lid off it.

Truth be told the companies themselves would have a very difficult time laundering money any more.

Not like a nightclub that can do $1000 cash in cover in fake customers per night. Or over $300,000 a year!


----------



## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Allowing credit cards took a huge bite out of the money laundering game. Also the mandating of 1099s caused taxi drivers to actually pay taxes and properly report their revenue and expenses to the IRS. It's a lot harder than it used to be to use a taxi for money laundering purposes.
> 
> for example...
> 
> ...


Until they start visiting that night club and seeing a ghost town.


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## Kodyhead (May 26, 2015)

Again not an expert lol but building luxury rentals from the ground up and having control over everything like concrete bids, window, doors, marble, trucking etc and then trying to prove it actually people live there or just "vacation homes" would was a lot of money. Especially when stuff like steel or windows are also imported. Then you got the rental income for the whole building and then of course eventually selling it at the boom.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Allowing credit cards took a huge bite out of the money laundering game. Also the mandating of 1099s caused taxi drivers to actually pay taxes and properly report their revenue and expenses to the IRS. It's a lot harder than it used to be to use a taxi for money laundering purposes.
> 
> for example...
> 
> ...


This actually went very bad in Boston about 8 years ago.
Eddie Tutungien, the Taxi King, spent over 40 years building a taxi and livery empire around Boston Cab brown and white taxi association with 600 medallions as his core wealth.

Eddie is Jordanian born Armenian. He ran his empire with an iron fist, and his nephews and brothers were the enforcers.
Want a new cab? $10 extra. Want to start driving right now? Bump Tsakis Eddie's brother $10. And so on, and so on.

Drivers complained so much the city blew the whistle to the IRS. The IRS set up a permanent office INSIDE Eddie's Deaconess garage at 74 Kilmarnock St.
IRS froze his assets. He was ordered to continue running operations, while not being allowed to buy or sell medallions.

Last year they sentenced him to 2 years in federal prison. Eddie was no nice guy, I leased from him for at least 3 years of my life. If only he'd treated drivers better, it never would have come down like this.


----------



## jeanocelot (Sep 2, 2016)

Pedro Paramo66 said:


> We must be proud, we are shredding the taxi industry and we are making a lot a lot of money
> Lol


Yes, destroying the taxi rentier cabal has allowed the going rate for conveyance to drop enough to stimulate demand for Uberers.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

jeanocelot said:


> Yes, destroying the taxi rentier cabal has allowed the going rate for conveyance to drop enough to stimulate demand for Uberers.


However it also pushed it below cost in some markets, with below cost being the future for everyone, as uber never raises rates paid to the driver.


----------



## JoshInReno (Jan 29, 2018)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> A realistic scenario. Uber loses 3 billion dollars per year. Uber churns 96% of new drivers in one year or less.
> Unsustainable.


In principle I agree with you.

But the reality is that there are roughly 220 million licensed drivers in the US. Uber has less than 1 million drivers in the US.

So they have a 200+ year supply.

Whether or not they survive as a company is a different matter.


----------



## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

JoshInReno said:


> In principle I agree with you.
> 
> But the reality is that there are roughly 220 million licensed drivers in the US. Uber has less than 1 million drivers in the US.
> 
> ...


You didnt thinkthat through. According to your metric, there will ALWAYS be half of one percent of this country Ubering. Think the probability through for a day and get back to me


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## JoshInReno (Jan 29, 2018)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> You didnt thinkthat through. According to your metric, there will ALWAYS be half of one percent of this country Ubering. Think the probability through for a day and get back to me


See the last line of my post.

My point is that there is no shortage of drivers even if Uber burns 1 million drivers a year. There is the potential for 219,000,000 replacements.

Do you really, truly, honestly believe Uber will not be able to find 1,000,000 drivers in a pool of 219,000,000?

The working conditions aren't good and the pay sucks but thinking that Uber will not be able to find replacements for each and every single one of us is absurd.

I'm not sure why some of our group seem to think Uber will wake up one day with no drivers.


----------



## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

[QUOTE="JoshInReno, post: 4072442
I'm not sure why some of our group seem to think Uber will wake up one day with no drivers.[/QUOTE]

Pretty simple. The 96% churn is poor guerilla marketing.
"Hey Tommy, I'm thinking of Ubering. You Ubered. Why did you stop"

"Well Tammy, the money sucked then my transmission shit the bed and Ubers pay per mile wasn't enough to both eat AND fix the car but by all means, destroy your car for no money!"


----------



## john1975 (Jul 29, 2016)

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...ns-will-be-offered-at-bankruptcy-auction/amp/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who would pay 100k for a medallion. That's crazy.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

john1975 said:


> Who would pay 100k for a medallion. That's crazy.


I almost paid way more than that for a Philly Medallion in 2010.

Would you finance a medallion for $100,000 if you could sell it for $500,000 in 20 years time? AND work as a taxi driver for the next 20 years without going through a cab company?

That's what people are still paying $100,000 for.

if i lived in NYC i would seriously consider dropping$100,000 for a medallion RIGHT NOW!

a $90,000 loan (10% down) is only 372 a month. $372 a month and i can be a taxi driver in NYC charging $2.50 a mile. Should be able to STILL clear that much in a single weekend.


----------



## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> I almost paid way more than that for a Philly Medallion in 2010.
> 
> Would you finance a medallion for $100,000 if you could sell it for $500,000 in 20 years time? AND work as a taxi driver for the next 20 years without going through a cab company?
> 
> ...


Runor has it once you learn the ropes you can do 4 to 5 airports per day. Average fare to midtown is like $70. Easy boring day. Stream music, read books, dance like a Roman with her eyes on fire.


----------



## roadman (Nov 14, 2016)

Uber is the opposite of king Midas. Everything uber touches turns to shit.


----------



## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> No one is going to miss them.
> 
> It was a terrible, thieving, and corrupt system.


Unlike Uber


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Cdub2k said:


> people paid $1,000,000 just to be able to drive a taxi?


No.
People and companies invested in a medallion that allowed them to put a licensed taxi on the streets of NYC and then lease out a vehicle wearing that medallion 24/7/365.

That medallioned-taxi used to be able to be leased out at $150 per 8 hour shift. At an 90 utilization (accounting for maintenance down-time) that generated $150,000/yr providing a 6yr ROI all while the value of the medallion was increasing each year.

No different than investing in rental property.
You let the tenants pay off your mortgage on the asset and then sell the property for profit in the future.

That's how it worked for decades.
And just like a bad real-estate investment, no one saw that the 'neighborhood' was going to do down-hill fast, reducing the property value.

Now, ask me if I feel sorry for the investor who bought a medallion in NYC in 1980 for $50,000, watched the value climb to over $1m
_(all while the medallion was generating free cash flow of $10,00/yr - and providing a driver with $50,000 of income)_
and then saw the value of the medallion investment drop to $600,000 today.

Sorry - no tears from me.


----------



## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> No.
> People and companies invested in a medallion that allowed them to put a licensed taxi on the streets of NYC and then lease out a vehicle wearing that medallion 24/7/365.
> 
> That medallioned-taxi used to be able to be leased out at $150 per 8 hour shift. At an 90 utilization (accounting for maintenance down-time) that generated $150,000/yr providing a 6yr ROI all while the value of the medallion was increasing each year.
> ...


Those numbers aren't right. The shift is 12 hours and roughly $120.

The price of Medallions was too high, but the solution was not to merely hand off virtual street hail rights to a company which pays nothing for that right and is allowed to add an unlimited number of cars to the road. The current value (what is currently being paid at auction) is below 200k, not 600k.

It's absurd to merely compare it to a bad real estate investment. The value at it's core was based on the promise by the City of New York that it was an exclusive right to street hails. Call that a 'monopoly' or 'artificial scarcity' or whatever nonsense, it's limited for a very good reason. We once were where we are now. No one makes money, desperation explodes. In all sectors.

Race to the bottom.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> Those numbers aren't right. The shift is 12 hours and roughly $120.
> 
> The price of Medallions was too high, but the solution was not to merely hand off virtual street hail rights to a company which pays nothing for that right and is allowed to add an unlimited number of cars to the road. The current value (what is currently being paid at auction) is below 200k, not 600k.
> 
> ...


I'm sure you're right about the shift hours. Of course the cost of the shift varies by market, market conditions, and ownership.. you're also right that the current value of a medallion at auction is about $186, 000. That's why they're being bought by hedge funds. Hedge funds buy things that they believe will increase dramatically in value, often as an offset to a competitive industry in which they are invested.. that's why they're called hedge funds.

Anecdotally, I was in the city a couple of weeks ago and I compared Uber and Lyft fare estimates to every cab I took. More often than not the cab fare was relatively the same as the rideshare. That bodes well for current medallion holders. And as the article I cited above states, rideshare does much better in the boroughs outside of Manhattan.

Personally, I feel it is much easier to hail a cab in the city than bother with trying to locate an Uber or have Uber try to find me.

As far as the analogy to real estate, it stands as valid as any non-real property can be compared to real property. Sorry if you don't like it or agree.


----------



## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I'm sure you're right about the shift hours. Of course the cost of the shift varies by market, market conditions, and ownership.. you're also right that the current value of a medallion at auction is about $186, 000. That's why they're being bought by hedge funds. Hedge funds buy things that they believe will increase dramatically in value, often as an offset to a competitive industry in which they are invested.. that's why they're called hedge funds.
> 
> Anecdotally, I was in the city a couple of weeks ago and I compared Uber and Lyft fare estimates to every cab I took. More often than not the cab fare was relatively the same as the rideshare. That bodes well for current medallion holders. And as the article I cited above states, rideshare does much better in the boroughs outside of Manhattan.
> 
> ...


The problem I have with the real estate analogy is that while it is valid regarding the price bubble of Medallions, the way in which the bubble burst would be the equivalent of a city suddenly deciding it could legally dump toxic waste next to a large residential area.

I don't know much about hedge funds, but isn't it possible that they might be shorting the Medallions? Cuomo's $2.50 MTA fee per ride kicks in next year, I see Uber is already starting an ad campaign to get people to share rides to circumvent the charge. Cuomo also wants to institute an additional congestion pricing plan, probably around $15 just to drive in Manhattan below 60th. Both he and de Blasio oppose any limit on Uber numbers. Even after six taxi and livery driver suicides in six months. The fix is in.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> I don't know much about hedge funds, but isn't it possible that they might be shorting the Medallions? .


No... they are purchasing the asset itself, not an underlying investment in the asset. They see the current price as being exceptionally undervalued for the future value.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> Both he and de Blasio oppose any limit on Uber numbers. Even after six taxi and livery driver suicides in six months. The fix is in.


hehe - sorry, no one in the NYC taxi industry since 1937 gets to claim with a straight face that 'the fix is in'.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

The blovation is real.


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