# I got a phone call yesterday from an undesirable



## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

So I'm sitting at home on the couch, in the middle of yet another session of trying to figure out why belly button fluff is always blue, when the phone rings.

Upon answering I immediately realize that I have been contacted by an undesirable. A specimen I would have put on a call reject list, had he not hidden his number from my caller ID. But it was not a call from a pervert, a heavy breather, or a telemarketer offering me solar panels. It was worse. Much worse.

- Hello?
- Hello! It's Bob from Uber Operations! How are you today?!

Oh crap. Contact had been made by the Dark Side. What the hell did they want?

Bob explained to me that Uber needs help defending itself against a class action lawsuit, and that it is looking for drivers to assist them. Kind of like Star Wars, Episode IV. "Help me, Obi Wan; you're our only hope". If it had been a nubile early 20s Carrie Fisher asking me, I would obviously have immediately offered to hand over my first born, sell my grandmother etc etc. But this was Bob, from Uber Ops.

He went on to say that he's contacting drivers, and asking them to sign affidavits to be presented in court, stating that they believe that they are independent contractors, not employees. W...T...F..?!?!?!?????

"So....", says Bob, expectantly, "Will you help?"

"Actually, I'd rather be injected with the Ebola virus and then set on fire", replied the voice inside my head.

"No... I'll pass", said my other voice.

I then hung up the phone and laughed my ASS off!


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## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

Bob is probably another contractor for Uber, calling from his home. Most likely using his own cell phone and his own minutes ;-)


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## unter ling (Sep 29, 2014)

Belly button fluff survey I found, hope it helps.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/lint/

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/lint/why.htm


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

Wow ! So they known they are going to lose. 

If ya ask me, that is a very weak arguement. Case law has already set a pressident.

I wonder what the, I believe its called, A bill of particulars, in the suit is asking for "As Employees". Such as, will there be a retro active payout?


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

unter ling said:


> Belly button fluff survey I found, hope it helps.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/lint/
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/lint/why.htm


Lots of interesting theories here, but I need hard facts. Why is it blue, and not green? Or purple?


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> Wow ! So they known they are going to lose.
> 
> If ya ask me, that is a very weak arguement. Case law has already set a pressident.
> 
> I wonder what the, I believe its called, A bill of particulars, in the suit is asking for "As Employees". Such as, will there be a retro active payout?


I think it could go either way. The judge in the case effectively said, " beats the shit out of me if they're IC or employees - I'll turn it over to a jury and let them decide".

My own opinión is that we are neither employees nor IC. So I can't see any point in trying to pigeon hole us as one or the other. I think maybe a sensible thing to do would be to recognize a third category - semi independent contractors, and work out a framework for dividing costs and responsibilities.


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## thehappytypist (Oct 9, 2014)

RockinEZ said:


> Bob is probably another contractor for Uber, calling from his home. Most likely using his own cell phone and his own minutes ;-)


Nah, they don't let us do important stuff like that.


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## Pubsber (Mar 24, 2015)

Should have asked "BOB" if thats really his real name, "give me a good reason why i should protest against full insurace, wage increase and gas reimbursment".


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## Taxi Driver in Arizona (Mar 18, 2015)

elelegido said:


> So I'm sitting at home on the couch, in the middle of yet another session of trying to figure out why belly button fluff is always blue, when the phone rings.


Try wearing red shirts for a week and see what happens.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> Try wearing red shirts for a week and see what happens.


The lint comes out green??


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

elelegido said:


> So I'm sitting at home on the couch, in the middle of yet another session of trying to figure out why belly button fluff is always blue, when the phone rings.
> 
> Upon answering I immediately realize that I have been contacted by an undesirable. A specimen I would have put on a call reject list, had he not hidden his number from my caller ID. But it was not a call from a pervert, a heavy breather, or a telemarketer offering me solar panels. It was worse. Much worse.
> 
> ...


I wonder if it was Bob from Account Temps moonlighting....


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## TeleSki (Dec 4, 2014)

I'd rather be an independent contractor, and that is how I see myself and this work. I don't want to deal with a supervisor, HR, all the employee/employer regulations. I guess for full-time drivers, it may be better, but for most of this who do it part-time, it would suck.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

TeleSki said:


> I'd rather be an independent contractor, and that is how I see myself and this work. I don't want to deal with a supervisor, HR, all the employee/employer regulations. I guess for full-time drivers, it may be better, but for most of this who do it part-time, it would suck.


If we were true independent contractors we could set our own rates.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Txchick said:


> If we were true independent contractors we could set our own rates.


Bingo!!!!!!


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## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

Txchick said:


> If we were true independent contractors we could set our own rates.


My exact thought, of they want us to be IC we should be able to set out own rate.


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## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

I deleted my sidecar post because their website no longer works. 
Not sure if they are still in business. A TNC that allowed PAX to select a rate may not have survived. 
I agree with 20yearsdriving Minimum to the driver should be $5. The market will support that. 
We should be able to set our own rates, or be insured and reimbursed for expenses like employees. 
We are either one or the other. Uber wants it both ways. 

Not employees
They get to set the rules.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

TeleSki said:


> I'd rather be an independent contractor, and that is how I see myself and this work. I don't want to deal with a supervisor, HR, all the employee/employer regulations. I guess for full-time drivers, it may be better, but for most of this who do it part-time, it would suck.


Drivers are stuck in the middle not always employees (sometimes yes) but have no say as a independent contractor in running your own show.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

RockinEZ said:


> I deleted my sidecar post because their website no longer works.
> Not sure if they are still in business. A TNC that allowed PAX to select a rate may not have survived.
> I agree with 20yearsdriving Minimum to the driver should be $5. The market will support that.
> We should be able to set our own rates, or be insured and reimbursed for expenses like employees.
> ...


I just was on Side cars website still working https://www.side.cr


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## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

thehappytypist said:


> Nah, they don't let us do important stuff like that.


Happy, I have always wondered if the support people were independent contractors also.
When I send in a question by email, I generally get several support people asking to help me, and I also get several requests to rate their support. 
Are the support folks working from home?


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## thehappytypist (Oct 9, 2014)

RockinEZ said:


> Happy, I have always wondered if the support people were independent contractors also.
> When I send in a question by email, I generally get several support people asking to help me, and I also get several requests to rate their support.
> Are the support folks working from home?


We do work from home but we aren't independent contractors. We're all on temporary employment contracts but the position is precarious, they have a habit of letting people go long before the end of that contract.


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## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

Txchick said:


> I just was on Side cars website still working https://www.side.cr


Now it is working.... I need to read their speal. 
They are in San Diego now.


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## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

thehappytypist said:


> We do work from home but we aren't independent contractors. We're all on temporary employment contracts but the position is precarious, they have a habit of letting people go long before the end of that contract.


Happy, do you get paid by the reply? The support people seem to compete for my questions. Some have been great, and others I can see why their contract would be cut short. 
My VW Jetta sedan was listed as a VW Jetta Sportswagen by Uber. 
Getting that changed was like pulling teeth. 
Apparently "sedan" is used differently at Uber than in the real world. 
I kept getting replies that a "sedan" was a high end car. 
Na, any car with 4 doors and a trunk is a sedan ;-)
After a month they fixed it.


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## thehappytypist (Oct 9, 2014)

RockinEZ said:


> Happy, do you get paid by the reply? The support people seem to compete for my questions. Some have been great, and others I can see why their contract would be cut short.
> My VW Jetta sedan was listed as a VW Jetta Sportswagen by Uber.
> Getting that changed was like pulling teeth.
> Apparently "sedan" is used differently at Uber than in the real world.
> ...


We're all paid hourly. However, we do have to do a certain number of tickets per hour as one of the stats that determines whether we stay or go. If there aren't enough tickets to go around then it turns into a brawl so people can just get some done. It's usually US vs. Philippines agents and none of us are impressed with the Philippines agents AT ALL. They're all about the numbers and they don't give two shits about giving the right answer. They seem to read only the subject line and fire off an answer without actually reading what the email says.


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## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

thehappytypist said:


> We're all paid hourly. However, we do have to do a certain number of tickets per hour as one of the stats that determines whether we stay or go. If there aren't enough tickets to go around then it turns into a brawl so people can just get some done. It's usually US vs. Philippines agents and none of us are impressed with the Philippines agents AT ALL. They're all about the numbers and they don't give two shits about giving the right answer. They seem to read only the subject line and fire off an answer without actually reading what the email says.


Now I understand why someone would think a "sedan" is a high end car. 
The company I used to work for moved half the support calls to India. Same thing. Once a customer heard the accent they would hang up and call back hoping to get a CA support person.


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## TeleSki (Dec 4, 2014)

thehappytypist said:


> We're all paid hourly. However, we do have to do a certain number of tickets per hour as one of the stats that determines whether we stay or go. If there aren't enough tickets to go around then it turns into a brawl so people can just get some done. It's usually US vs. Philippines agents and none of us are impressed with the Philippines agents AT ALL. They're all about the numbers and they don't give two shits about giving the right answer. They seem to read only the subject line and fire off an answer without actually reading what the email says.


I ordered DirectTV and had to reschedule my install. Called the 800 number which went to the Philippines. The girl was very friendly, but I've found they usually can't think outside the box. If they get a question that is not on their script, they don't know what to do. I've had similar interactions regarding service calls with other companies. I ended up getting bounced back to the USA to have it handled.


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## ARIV005 (Mar 4, 2015)

elelegido said:


> I think it could go either way. The judge in the case effectively said, " beats the shit out of me if they're IC or employees - I'll turn it over to a jury and let them decide".
> 
> My own opinión is that we are neither employees nor IC. So I can't see any point in trying to pigeon hole us as one or the other. I think maybe a sensible thing to do would be to recognize a third category - semi independent contractors, and work out a framework for dividing costs and responsibilities.


Charity Workers.... Everything we do should be tax deductible.


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## ARIV005 (Mar 4, 2015)

TeleSki said:


> I'd rather be an independent contractor, and that is how I see myself and this work. I don't want to deal with a supervisor, HR, all the employee/employer regulations. I guess for full-time drivers, it may be better, but for most of this who do it part-time, it would suck.


That is true....


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## thehappytypist (Oct 9, 2014)

LAndreas said:


> Hah! In retrospect, that makes total sense now: my interactions with support were black and white, no shades of gray in between. Either template response only, and often the wrong one, or a reply that betrayed the actual human responding. I took on the habit of just 'replying' to the couple of best CSRs I encountered even with totally new issues. I guess too many got into that habit, because I've been reminded the last few times that I need to start a new 'trouble ticket' for each new unrelated inquiry..


If they move off template then it's really obvious they aren't native English speakers. It's funny when they have to use more than one to answer an email, they never clean it up so you'll have multiple greetings and it'll be hilariously bad.


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## thehappytypist (Oct 9, 2014)

RockinEZ said:


> Now I understand why someone would think a "sedan" is a high end car.
> The company I used to work for moved half the support calls to India. Same thing. Once a customer heard the accent they would hang up and call back hoping to get a CA support person.


I've worked in a similar position, a US agent for a company that also had overseas call centers. If I had a dollar for everyone thanked me for being American, I'd be pretty rich. Or if I had a dollar for every time someone complained to me about the "sand n*ggers"...


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

thehappytypist said:


> If they move off template then it's really obvious they aren't native English speakers. It's funny when they have to use more than one to answer an email, they never clean it up so you'll have multiple greetings and it'll be hilariously bad.


Well, at least someone thinks that the extremely frustrating experience we drivers go through when trying to get answers to real problems is hilarious...

I don't see any drivers laughing it up.


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## thehappytypist (Oct 9, 2014)

elelegido said:


> Well, at least someone thinks that the extremely frustrating experience we drivers go through when trying to get answers to real problems is hilarious...


We usually see it when we're having to clean up their mess, so yeah we feel entitled to laugh at the ones who will most likely be replacing us soon.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

thehappytypist said:


> We usually see it when we're having to clean up their mess, so yeah we feel entitled to laugh at the ones who will most likely be replacing us soon.


I have noticed no reduction whatsoever in quality of service from CSRs after the introduction of Filipino staff. It was piss poor before, and it is piss poor now! _Occasionally_ you would get a USA CSR who was able to answer the very first email without sending back a copy-and-paste as a first attempt at making the driver go away; and occasionally you would get a CSR who could give a coherent, and factually correct answer, but by and large I think most drivers avoid contacting "support" unless there is absolutely no alternative.

You personally seem to be intelligent and a good CSR, but I can't help thinking that, collectively, you CSRs in the USA have brought replacement on yourselves. Uber can purchase the same terrible service at much lower rates in the third world.


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## CityGirl (Nov 29, 2014)

No matter what you sign after the fact, no matter what contract you have signed on under, if they govern the relationship as employer/employee, a court will find that it is employer/employee.
This can't have been a real Uber legal strategy. It just can't have been. And if it is, could they hire some ACTUAL lawyers, please? Sheesh.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

CityGirl said:


> No matter what you sign after the fact, no matter what contract you have signed on under, if they govern the relationship as employer/employee, a court will find that it is employer/employee.
> This can't have been a real Uber legal strategy. It just can't have been. And if it is, could they hire some ACTUAL lawyers, please? Sheesh.


So far, the judge in the case has said that he thinks that it is not obvious that we are employees. As well as saying it is not obvious that we are IC.

Lots of companies try to get around the labor laws by claiming IC status. A friend of mine is a paralegal. She worked for a law firm, where she was provided a desk, a computer, a phone, a cellphone and business cards with her and the company's names on them. They gave her training and set her hours. This was very, very obviously employment, but the greedy law firm had her sign an IC contract and it paid no SS, taxes or benefits.

It happens in all industries. Their strategy _is_ to try to get away with it. Some succeed, some don't.


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## CityGirl (Nov 29, 2014)

elelegido said:


> So far, the judge in the case has said that he thinks that it is not obvious that we are employees. As well as saying it is not obvious that we are IC.
> 
> Lots of companies try to get around the labor laws by claiming IC status. A friend of mine is a paralegal. She worked for a law firm, where she was provided a desk, a computer, a phone, a cellphone and business cards with her and the company's names on them. They gave her training and set her hours. This was very, very obviously employment, but the greedy law firm had her sign an IC contract and it paid no SS, taxes or benefits.
> 
> It happens in all industries. Their strategy _is_ to try to get away with it. Some succeed, some don't.


The criteria are clear. No testimony can change what really happens (testimony even in the form of a signed affidavit after the fact).

The cases you are alluding to are in CA. Here is a summary of CA law for anyone who is curious about what makes someone an employee vs. independent contractor:
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm

Note: " 11. Whether or not the parties believe they are creating an employer-employee relationship may have some bearing on the question, but is not determinative since this is a question of law based on objective tests."

and

"Other points to remember in determining whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor are that the existence of a written agreement purporting to establish an independent contractor relationship is not determinative _(Borello, Id._at 349), and the fact that a worker is issued a 1099 form rather than a W-2 form is also not determinative with respect to independent contractor status. _(Toyota Motor Sales v. Superior Court_ (1990) 220 Cal.App.3d 864, 877)".


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

CityGirl said:


> The criteria are clear. No testimony can change what really happens (testimony even in the form of a signed affidavit after the fact).
> 
> The cases you are alluding to are in CA. Here is a summary of CA law for anyone who is curious about what makes someone an employee vs. independent contractor:
> http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm
> ...


I think you misunderstand what I am saying. Of course it makes no difference what the contract says. That's evidenced by the fact that the judge has allowed the case against Uber to proceed.

The IC vs employee case will be decided not by what is in any contract, but according to criteria such as:

- Was training provided
- How much supervision of work was there
- What equipment was provided (this is one reason, incidentally, that drivers are charged by Uber for referral cards. Providing them free could be construed as an indicator of employment)
- Were working hours specified
Etc

Uber is seeking driver affidavits not to confirm what contracts they signed, but how they performed their duties. Uber would like drivers to give evidence that they worked with no supervision, no fixed hours, no training, no free equipment provided by Uber.


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## TeleSki (Dec 4, 2014)

elelegido said:


> I think you misunderstand what I am saying. Of course it makes no difference what the contract says. That's evidenced by the fact that the judge has allowed the case to proceed.
> 
> The IC vs employee case will be decided not by what is in any contract, but according to criteria such as:
> 
> ...


All of which is true, and why we are more like ICs than employees.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

TeleSki said:


> All of which is true, and why we are more like ICs than employees.


On the other hand, Uber:
- sets the prices
- fires us if we do not accept a certain percentage of trips
- fires us if our rating falls below a certain level, which they decide and change at will
- fires us if we cancel too many jobs
- tells us how to provide service - water, Spotify, opening doors etc
- offers hourly "guarantees" which are indirectly, not directly linked to work performed

I think the main ones which would indicate employee status are the lack of a complete right to refuse jobs (we can only refuse 20%) and to cancel jobs, plus the "guarantee" hourly pay schemes.

There are arguments for and against each status.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

LAndreas said:


> If a pax requests an "Uber", they are really offering a defined amount (what you termed "price"), to be taken from A to B. Our acceptance at the terms offered makes that a contract.


So, if I go into Walmart and I want a can of beans, I am offering a defined amount (what I term a "price") to be able to take the beans from A (Walmart) to B (my kitchen). Yes! That is what a price is. If I want the beans, I pony up and pay the price set by the store. And if pax want a ride, they agree to the pricing set by Uber, not by the driver.

Same goes for the word "fired", or "deactivated", or " your services are no longer required". It all means the same; it's just semantics and pedantics, of which Uber's lawyers are sure to make full use in the courtroom.

I don't know which way it should go. As I already said, I think it's not an either-or; I think we need a third category called semi-independent contractor.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

But Expedia / Kayak don't set the prices - the airines do.

An example of a true independent contractor relationship was Priceline. You'd request a hotel through them. They'd suggest some hotels, you'd pick one and then pay Priceline for it. Priceline would take your card payment, retain its commission, and pass the rest on to the hotel. So far, very similar to Uber. The pax requests a ride, Uber selects a driver. The pax pays Uber, which takes its commission and fee and passes the rest on to the driver.

But Priceline was just a matcher of hotel stayers with hotels. It does not:

- set the prices for hotels
- tell the hotels how to provide their services
- specify what percentage of room requests they must accept
- specify hotel cancelation policies
- set the rules for tipping in hotels

Priceline simply matches customers with providers.

Uber, on the other hand, does not simply match customers with providers. Their myriad rules, regulations, requirements and restrictions on drivers mean that the latter certainly are not independent. Which is obviously half of, and a requirement for, the IC label.


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## HoverCraft1 (Mar 7, 2015)

RockinEZ said:


> Bob is probably another contractor for Uber, calling from his home. Most likely using his own cell phone and his own minutes ;-)


The Uber Koolaide is very effective...


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## UberFrolic (Sep 18, 2014)

"Tell your boss to tell his boss to tell his boss to GO **** HIMSELF AND UBER'S BUSINESS MODEL"


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

thehappytypist said:


> They seem to read only the subject line and fire off an answer without actually reading what the email says.


That is painfully obvious. I never expect anything useful in the first reply. Just wait for it and my next email starts with "Now that you've sent the obligatory canned cut and paste response here is my issue" and then paste my original with maybe a note as to how their canned response dies not apply. I don't even get annoyed anymore. It's just how it works. Like getting stuck in traffic. No point in getting mad.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

elelegido said:


> But Expedia / Kayak don't set the prices - the airines do.
> 
> An example of a true independent contractor relationship was Priceline. You'd request a hotel through them. They'd suggest some hotels, you'd pick one and then pay Priceline for it. Priceline would take your card payment, retain its commission, and pass the rest on to the hotel. So far, very similar to Uber. The pax requests a ride, Uber selects a driver. The pax pays Uber, which takes its commission and fee and passes the rest on to the driver.
> 
> ...


I would also argue that accepting Uber's price for taking someone from a to b would make sense IF we knew what a and b were. We never know b and a may be incorrect but we rarely get paid to go from the incorrect a to the correct one. So we actually NEVER know what we are getting paid until the pax is in the car and we have already spent time and money to get there. If we decide it's not worth taking the trip we risk a bad rating and deactivation.


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## thehappytypist (Oct 9, 2014)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> That is painfully obvious. I never expect anything useful in the first reply. Just wait for it and my next email starts with "Now that you've sent the obligatory canned cut and paste response here is my issue" and then paste my original with maybe a note as to how their canned response dies not apply. I don't even get annoyed anymore. It's just how it works. Like getting stuck in traffic. No point in getting mad.


Luckily there are more CSRs than there are tickets in most cities so at least you get a fast-ish response. If you don't get one quick then I guarantee it's been escalated.


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## Thehulk (Jul 23, 2015)

Bob, you made my day. You sure had me laughing while my car was being serviced at the Toyota dealer. People was looking at me if I was crazy. Definitely good times. The force is strong within you!


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## burnlord (Nov 23, 2014)

elelegido said:


> So I'm sitting at home on the couch, in the middle of yet another session of trying to figure out why belly button fluff is always blue, when the phone rings.
> 
> Upon answering I immediately realize that I have been contacted by an undesirable. A specimen I would have put on a call reject list, had he not hidden his number from my caller ID. But it was not a call from a pervert, a heavy breather, or a telemarketer offering me solar panels. It was worse. Much worse.
> 
> ...


Yes, because what we need to be is Employees... that way Uber can call us and tell us when to work.


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## burnlord (Nov 23, 2014)

Txchick said:


> If we were true independent contractors we could set our own rates.


Nah.. if you work for a plumbing assoc.. you can set your rate. either their rate or 0$ and go somewhere else.

If you are a trucker,. its your business. The company that wants shipping is paying X rate, if you don't like it, tell them you want double and see how that works out.

Its only if you are a plumber and have your own established business where clients call you, that you can set your own rates.


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## burnlord (Nov 23, 2014)

limepro said:


> My exact thought, of they want us to be IC we should be able to set out own rate.


this could work out. rider says i want to ride from here to the airport. The app says , it should be about $50, based on distance. The app can then go send requests to 10 drivers.
The drivers can submit bids. Rider sees 8 drivers submitted bids. The time wait, the car type, the price asking and the rating.

With that, the rider can choose the closest, or the cheapest, or by rating and choose the fancier car with the same rating and a poopier car.

Sounds like a legit option.


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## negeorgia (Feb 1, 2015)

Txchick said:


> If we were true independent contractors we could set our own rates.


I have found that not to be true. My experience has been there is a ceiling that someone will pay and if I ask for more than that ceiling, I don't work that day.


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## burnlord (Nov 23, 2014)

elelegido said:


> On the other hand, Uber:
> - sets the prices
> - fires us if we do not accept a certain percentage of trips
> - fires us if our rating falls below a certain level, which they decide and change at will
> ...


they set the price that customers will be charged. If you work for a plumming association, you dont get to charge your own rate either. Its a benefit to you to find plumbing work if you dont want to go out and find your own contracts/customers.

If your rating sucks, then you cant be part of the association. Shitty plumber, shitty driver need not apply. It is good for the plumbing association if customers feel they can call the association with confidence there is a quality plumber/driver

Cancelling too many jobs reflect poorly on the plumbing association, driver association(uber)
If you cause unhappy customers, they both dont let you in the club.

I have never been told to offer water, dont know what spotify is, and nobody has told me I have to open a door. That being said, I push a button and open a door for the passenger, and they like that. My rating has gone up 1.5 points, and I am no more polite or safe while driving.

Uber simply suggested that little things like offering water or providing phone plugs MAY result in higher ratings.

"offers hourly "guarantees" which are indirectly, not directly linked to work performed"
I am not sure how this makes them an employee. To me, this is uber simply giving you a little bit more money to make sure they have more drivers on the system. If uber wants to push a given time slot, then they need to be the 'go to' company. Riders will call uber if it is only a two minute wait for a driver, vs 5 minutes on another company. Uber is simply saying, 'if you make the effort to go down town, we will make sure you dont end up losing money'

the end is.. if you dont want to work on a given day, you dont have to.
almost any employee will have to call in and notify the employer they are not going to be in.
Most likely, they would have to find another worker to cover their shit,. if not outright give the other worker an extra 10 bux to cover it.


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## burnlord (Nov 23, 2014)

elelegido said:


> On the other hand, Uber:
> 
> I think the main ones which would indicate employee status are the lack of a complete right to refuse jobs (we can only refuse 20%) and to cancel jobs, plus the "guarantee" hourly pay schemes.
> 
> There are arguments for and against each status.


You have a complete right to refuse jobs. It is called 'logging off'
If you are logging in, then you are expected to accept 80%+ of rides.

If you did not, then what would you have? A bunch of Lyft drivers logging in and never answering so that it takes 15 minutes to find a legitimate Uber ride.

You can cancel all you want too. Why would you cancel 50% of your rides though. If you allowe these to be unlimited, what would you have? A bunch of Lyft drivers accepting rides and then cancelling 10 minutes later.. muahha.. rider is frustrated at Uber now baby! ! Maybe they will call Lyft or a cab !

the guarantee is not relevant. I am accepting what many think is a substandard driver rate, for the convenience of not having to find a rider myself. That is why I joined the Uber association. 20% dues results in me getting 80%.

80% of something is better than 100% of nothing, which is what I would have if I had to find my own rider.


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## Desperado (Aug 25, 2015)

elelegido said:


> I think it could go either way. The judge in the case effectively said, " beats the shit out of me if they're IC or employees - I'll turn it over to a jury and let them decide".
> 
> My own opinión is that we are neither employees nor IC. So I can't see any point in trying to pigeon hole us as one or the other. I think maybe a sensible thing to do would be to recognize a third category - semi independent contractors, and work out a framework for dividing costs and responsibilities.


The difference between IC and employee is a huge benefit to the employee and a huge detriment to Uber. The question boils down to a matter of control....How much control do they have over what you do. I am, believe it or not, a retired attorney with 30 years of experience in business law. I think that the relationship between Uber and the driver is that of independent contractor. I wish it were not so.


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## burnlord (Nov 23, 2014)

Desperado said:


> The difference between IC and employee is a huge benefit to the employee and a huge detriment to Uber. The question boils down to a matter of control....How much control do they have over what you do. I am, believe it or not, a retired attorney with 30 years of experience in business law. I think that the relationship between Uber and the driver is that of independent contractor. I wish it were not so.


I stopped by the airport and was chatting with a fellow uber. My wife calls and wants me to fill out paper.

What other job, as an employee where you are not the boss, allows you to just drive home and do what you want
for as long as you want, and coming back to work later, or not at all.

The only argument I ever see is 'negotiating fee'. Well, as I see it, you negotiate your price when you log in.

Want to work for uber-cheap price, if you will? Uberx.
Want more money? use your van and go uberXL.
Want more money but more hassles and sucking up?, sign up for Uberblack.

Costco provides a central site for new air conditioners. I can go there and get a good price.
The people who will show up are independent contractors and have pre agreed upon prices.
In no way are the AC installers considered employees of Costco. It is just silly.

Now, if Uber wants to provide the car and give me half the money to drive Ubers car around.. I might be an employee.
Just like if I had an Uber Black car limo service, and paid some chumps to drive my car on uber when they were not on limo runs. Those guys would be MY employees, though, not ubers. I am free to tell them when they can use my car, where they can drive it
and how they can return it to me. Then I pay them a cut of the money.


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

TeleSki said:


> I'd rather be an independent contractor, and that is how I see myself and this work. I don't want to deal with a supervisor, HR, all the employee/employer regulations. I guess for full-time drivers, it may be better, but for most of this who do it part-time, it would suck.


You already have a Supervisor; Uber, who oversee everything you do.

In regards to HR, you didn't enlist the help of Uber for more leads than you were already receiving? You approached Uber and met certain criteria for Uber to grant access to their platform.

Employee regulations; what sort of regulations do you think would be placed on you as an Uber driver employee?

Employer regulations; would see Uber cover you with workers compensation or insurance against injury example lifting a Pax heavy bag and injuring your back etc. while unable to work you'd still get paid.


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## glados (May 23, 2015)

Txchick said:


> If we were true independent contractors we could set our own rates.


Uber has no obligation to accept your rate however.

Uber can say: "We will only contract your services if you offer them for less than $1.20 / mile and $0.18 / min."

100% within IC framework.


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

Theres nothing independent about being dependant on another company to provide you work.


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## glados (May 23, 2015)

Instyle said:


> Theres nothing independent about being dependant on another company to provide you work.


You're not dependent on Uber. You're free to drive for Lyft.

Just because only one company is willing to contract you doesn't mean you're not independent.


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

glados said:


> You're not dependent on Uber. You're free to drive for Lyft.
> 
> Just because only one company is willing to contract you doesn't mean you're not independent.


Thats still being dependant on another company for offers of work, far from the tradional indenpendant contractor.


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## glados (May 23, 2015)

Instyle said:


> Thats still being dependant on another company for offers of work, far from the tradional indenpendant contractor.


Really? You seem to have confused "small business operator" or "sole trader" with "independent contractor".

"An *independent contractor* is a natural person, business, or corporation that provides goods or services to *another entity *under terms specified in a contract or within a verbal agreement."

Are you choosing to drive for [ Uber / Lyft / Craigslist / Gumtree ], or is Uber telling you to come to work?


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

glados said:


> Really? You seem to have confused "small business operator" or "sole trader" with "independent contractor".
> 
> "An *independent contractor* is a natural person, business, or corporation that provides goods or services to *another entity *under terms specified in a contract or within a verbal agreement."
> 
> Are you choosing to drive for [ Uber / Lyft / Craigslist / Gumtree ], or is Uber telling you to come to work?


I used the word Traditional.. independent contractors negotiate their own fees and working arrangements.

Whatever your opinion is on Uber, the following might interest you.

_Independent Contractors Act 2006_
_Superannuation Act 2005_


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## TeleSki (Dec 4, 2014)

Instyle said:


> I used the word Traditional.. independent contractors negotiate their own fees and working arrangements.
> 
> Whatever your opinion is on Uber, the following might interest you.
> 
> ...


I did financial planning, sold insurance, etc. as an IC. I did not get to set my commission rate for the company(s) I represented. I accepted their commission structure.


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

TeleSki said:


> I did financial planning, sold insurance, etc. as an IC. I did not get to set my commission rate for the company(s) I represented. I accepted their commission structure.


Again I used the word Traditional..

You would have signed a fix term contract not a roving agreement subject to change at anytime i.e. could the companies inform you of your commission rates then change them a week later without consultation to you?

The typical UberX driver in Australia is not a stand alone ride-sourcing operator, I use the word typical. Without Uber many drivers would not be transporting passengers or if Uber were to deactivate them it's not likely they can continue being a ride-sourcing driving.


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## glados (May 23, 2015)

Instyle said:


> Whatever your opinion is on Uber, the following might interest you.


You may also be interested in the ATO deputy commissioner saying Uber drivers are contractors, not employees. Was in the ridesharing seminar.


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## glados (May 23, 2015)

Instyle said:


> You would have signed a fix term contract not a roving agreement subject to change at anytime i.e. could the companies inform you of your commission rates then change them a week later without consultation to you?


Not really, if the contract says rate may change at any time then it may.


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

glados said:


> You may also be interested in the ATO deputy commissioner saying Uber drivers are contractors, not employees. Was in the ridesharing seminar.


Correct, based on the small amount of insight selectively made available looking in from an outsiders perspective.



glados said:


> Not really, if the contract says rate may change at any time then it may.


Correct, I was referring to your specific example. On the otherhand Uber terms just say see payment schedule, nothing specifically mentioning subject to change at any time nor any timeframe of notice while Uber's main recruiting line is make good money yet they can simply change that in a heartbeat.

My opinion remains strong the X product exerts too much control on indepedant contractors, simple. UberBlack and UberTaxi those models can stand alone if dropped by Uber. X can not and is completely and utterly reliant on the application and wouldn't be partaking in such activities if Uber or any other ridesharing service were not around.


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