# Uber to pay their portion of GST - NOT the driver



## WhiteCro

https://www.change.org/p/uber-uber-to-pay-their-portion-of-gst-not-the-driver


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## Jack Malarkey

WhiteCro said:


> https://www.change.org/p/uber-uber-to-pay-their-portion-of-gst-not-the-driver


It's a little strange that the petition expressly contemplates that state governments crack down on Uber's non-payment of GST when the GST legislation is federal law and the GST is administered by federal authorities.


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## UberDriverAU

Jack Malarkey said:


> It's a little strange that the petition expressly contemplates that state governments crack down on Uber's non-payment of GST when the GST legislation is federal law and the GST is administered by federal authorities.


If we received a dollar for every time someone misunderstood how the GST works Jack Malarkey, we'd both be rich men from it!


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## WhiteCro

Its very simple - Drivers shouldn't have to pay GST on what Uber receives!


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## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> Its very simple - Drivers shouldn't have to pay GST on what Uber receives!


You're right, it is very simple: we don't.

If you had a $110 fare, how much GST would be payable by you, and how much assessable income would you have?


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## Kylar

UberDriverAU said:


> You're right, it is very simple: we don't.
> 
> If you had a $110 fare, how much GST would be payable by you, and how much assessable income would you have?


Uber would take $27.50 ($25+$2.50 GST), I would get $82.5 and have $7.50 GST left to pay out of the $10 total, less credits from the GST I spent on fuel to drive (along with whatever other GST credits I've gotten from running expenses), My assessable income for the fare would have started at $100 before I deduct expenses?


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## WhiteCro

You clearly dont understand how it works: see last line of attached image copied from the ato website https://www.ato.gov.au/general/ride-sourcing-and-tax/


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## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> You clearly dont understand how it works: see last line of attached image copied from the ato website https://www.ato.gov.au/general/ride-sourcing-and-tax/


Yeah, I do actually. Who provides the service when you take someone in your car. Is it you, or is it Uber? That is the first question that needs to be answered. The rest of what needs to be done follows on from that.



Kylar said:


> Uber would take $27.50 ($25+$2.50 GST), I would get $82.5 and have $7.50 GST left to pay out of the $10 total, less credits from the GST I spent on fuel to drive (along with whatever other GST credits I've gotten from running expenses), My assessable income for the fare would have started at $100 before I deduct expenses?


Yep, that's all correct. I do find it's useful to start from the revenue side of things, because it helps to understand why we are asked to pay GST on the full fare. So we have:

Fare: $110.
GST payable to the ATO by the driver: $10.
Assessable income: $100.

This is our starting point before we consider expenses, GST credits, and income tax deductions.

Who is John Galt?, I think we need an Andie. What can you do for us?


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## WhiteCro

Sometimes on this website it feels like Im talking with Uber staff


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## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> Sometimes on this website it feels like Im talking with Uber staff


Not sharing your point of view doesn't make someone "Uber staff". Are you saying the ATO is on Uber's payroll? And you didn't answer the question I asked: who provides the service when you take someone in your car, you, or Uber? Answering that will lead to the explanation for why we don't pay "Uber's share".


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## Who is John Galt?

UberDriverAU said:


> Who is John Galt?, I think we need an Andie. What can you do for us?


I am currently attending to the needs, wants and desires of a very lucky pax, and am unable to fulfil an Andie request until a little later in the afternoon. However, I do have it mind *exactly* the Andie required in this instance.

I know there are many who will be on the edge of their seats awaiting the unveiling of this particular capture of Andie's extraordinary presence. Those willing to wait will be richly rewarded, I promise.

Thank you  UDAU , for this request as it is always, always a pleasure to provide another shot of Andie.


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## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> Not sharing your point of view doesn't make someone "Uber staff". Are you saying the ATO is on Uber's payroll? And you didn't answer the question I asked: who provides the service when you take someone in your car, you, or Uber? Answering that will lead to the explanation for why we don't pay "Uber's share".


Why dont you start first by acknowleding that you have read the ATO website, in particular the line were it says:

Pay GST on the full fare


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## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> Why dont you start first by acknowleding that you have read the ATO website, in particular the line were it says:
> 
> Pay GST on the full fare


Yep, I acknowledge what it says, and agree that we must pay GST on the full fare if we are the service provider. If you disagree, make your case for why that's not the case. Do you agree that:

(1) We are the service provider?
(2) Uber's fees are an expense?


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## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> Yep, I acknowledge what it says, and agree that we must pay GST on the full fare if we are the service provider. If you disagree, make your case for why that's not the case. Do you agree that:
> 
> (1) We are the service provider?
> (2) Uber's fees are an expense?


Now you should read the title of the petition, and it should make a lot more cents (pardon the pun)


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## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> Now you should read the title of the petition, and it should make a lot more cents (pardon the pun)


The title of the petition doesn't make sense because it's presuming that Uber and drivers share the GST liability on what the rider pays. That's quite simply not the case. Only one entity is liable for 100% of the GST payable. It can't be 75% driver, 25% Uber. As we are the service provider, we are paying our own GST, and not paying any GST for Uber.


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## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> The title of the petition doesn't make sense because it's presuming that Uber and drivers share the GST liability on what the rider pays. That's quite simply not the case. Only one entity is liable for 100% of the GST payable. It can't be 75% driver, 25% Uber. As we are the service provider, we are paying our own GST, and not paying any GST for Uber.


We don't bill the passenger so we cannot be the service provider!

Maybe Uber should be paying the full GST since they collect the full fare.


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## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> We don't bill the passenger so we cannot be the service provider!
> 
> Maybe Uber should be paying the full GST since they collect the full fare.


The pax hops in your car and you drive them, and they would not get billed if you didn't do that. That's the ATO's rationale for why you are the service provider, and therefore liable for 100% of the GST payable. It's not arguable that Uber should pay a portion of the GST because that's not how the GST law operates.


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## Hugh G

*


WhiteCro said:



https://www.change.org/p/uber-uber-to-pay-their-portion-of-gst-not-the-driver

Click to expand...

"This petition will be delivered to: UBER"

Waste of a Postage Stamp....










*


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## Jack Malarkey

Jack Malarkey said:


> It's a little strange that the petition expressly contemplates that state governments crack down on Uber's non-payment of GST when the GST legislation is federal law and the GST is administered by federal authorities.


I acknowledge the correction of the petition to refer to the correct level of government (federal).


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## UberDriverAU

Jack Malarkey said:


> I acknowledge the correction of the petition to refer to the correct level of government (federal).


At least they've changed it to get that bit right. That still doesn't make the premise of their argument correct though.


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## Hugh G

*"The trip ride cost the passenger $20.

The driver receives $15 and Uber receives $5.

The driver pays the GST for both the amount he/she receives AND the commission paid to Uber.

The driver pays $2 GST in the above example, The driver pays $2 GST in the above example, this represents 13.33%. "*

The GST liability on a $20 Fare paid by the passenger is 1/11 IE $1.81

Your lack of knowledge of GST is underwhelming, I choose not to participate.


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## WhiteCro

The pax wouldn't hop in the car if they hadn't used the


UberDriverAU said:


> The pax hops in your car and you drive them, and they would not get billed if you didn't do that.


The pax wouldn't hop in the car if they hadn't used the UBER app


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## Who is John Galt?

.
Oh......Lordy......I hope I am not too late.

This delightful shot is one of my favourites, or I should say, a portion of one of my favourites as I have cropped out or extracted head and shoulders from the entire photo. The original (larger full) shot is 2421 x 3000 and 1.54MB. If anyone would like a copy PM me. I will post the full picture at another 'Groundhog Day' opportunity. God knows there are enough of them. Enjoy


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## WhiteCro

Ignore the messages that side track you people and cast your vote to make a change

https://www.change.org/p/uber-uber-to-pay-their-portion-of-gst-not-the-driver


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## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> The pax wouldn't hop in the car if they hadn't used the
> 
> The pax wouldn't hop in the car if they hadn't used the UBER app





WhiteCro said:


> Ignore the messages that side track you people and cast your vote to make a change
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/uber-uber-to-pay-their-portion-of-gst-not-the-driver


The problem you have is the organisation that interprets and applies the law (the ATO) doesn't agree with you, they agree with what I'm saying. You're not going to get anywhere without a successful court case or amended legislation. Good luck with your endeavour, but I can't see it getting anywhere.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> The title of the petition doesn't make sense because it's presuming that Uber and drivers share the GST liability on what the rider pays. That's quite simply not the case. Only one entity is liable for 100% of the GST payable. It can't be 75% driver, 25% Uber. As we are the service provider, we are paying our own GST, and not paying any GST for Uber.


Ah, no, two entities, or more can pay the full 100%.

Apple Pay GST on their commission and as an app dev I pay the GST on my 80%.


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## WhiteCro

Paul Collins said:


> Ah, no, two entities, or more can pay the full 100%.
> 
> Apple Pay GST on their commission and as an app dev I pay the GST on my 80%.


Finally someone who doesn't sound like they are on Ubers payroll


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## Who is John Galt?

WhiteCro said:


> Finally someone who doesn't sound like they are on Ubers payroll


LOL.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Ah, no, two entities, or more can pay the full 100%.
> 
> Apple Pay GST on their commission and as an app dev I pay the GST on my 80%.


Paul, you are probably referring to provisions in the law where intermediaries and suppliers to essentially swap roles for GST purposes, but the intermediary simply claims a GST credit for the "purchase" from the actual supplier rather than only paying GST on their commission. If you are going to claim it's a relationship where the GST is indeed split 80%/20% without the involvement of GST credits, then I await your proof that this is the case.



WhiteCro said:


> Finally someone who doesn't sound like they are on Ubers payroll


Not so fast. Paul has been accused of being on Uber's payroll many times before. And he's also been known to boldly make statements that later turned out not to be true.



Who is John Galt? said:


> LOL.


He obviously hasn't read all of Paul's posts.


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## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> And he's also been known to boldly make statements that later turned out not to be true.


are you saying the Apple/developer dont share GST?


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## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> are you saying the Apple/developer dont share GST?


I'm not an Apple developer, but I dare say Paul has misrepresented the arrangement between Apple and it's developers. I await his supporting evidence with bated breath.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Paul, you are probably referring to provisions in the law where intermediaries and suppliers to essentially swap roles for GST purposes, but the intermediary simply claims a GST credit for the "purchase" from the actual supplier rather than only paying GST on their commission. If you are going to claim it's a relationship where the GST is indeed split 80%/20% without the involvement of GST credits, then I await your proof that this is the case.
> 
> Not so fast. Paul has been accused of being on Uber's payroll many times before. And he's also been known to boldly make statements that later turned out not to be true.
> He obviously hasn't read all of Paul's posts.


Of course it involves credits, but the result is the same. Apple pay GST on their share and I pay GST on my share.

In the App Store's case Apple are selling my apps for me and when they sell them to Australians the final price includes 10% GST. So Apple have collected the GST for me and passed it onto the government on my behalf. Apple then pass on the 70% of the gross revenue with GST 10% added to the Australian developers. They claim that as a credit (after raising an invoice on my behalf, see below) and I pay the GST only on my %. This would work exactly the same for uber of they were doing it correctly.

As for your ad hominem comments. Sad, as it did seem you were a man of substance.

Please post any comment I have made that turned out to not be true if you want to make a bold statement like that.





















WhiteCro said:


> are you saying the Apple/developer dont share GST?


Apple pay GST on their share (30 or 20%) and AU dev's pay GST on their share.



UberDriverAU said:


> I'm not an Apple developer, but I dare say Paul has misrepresented the arrangement between Apple and it's developers. I await his supporting evidence with bated breath.


And I look forward to your apology.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> In the App Store's case Apple are selling my apps for me and when they sell them to Australians the final price includes 10% GST. So Apple have collected the GST for me and passed it onto the government on my behalf.


You haven't shown us any evidence that Apple has made a GST payment to the ATO _on your behalf, _rather than on their own behalf_._


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## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> Ignore the messages that side track you people and cast your vote to make a change
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/uber-uber-to-pay-their-portion-of-gst-not-the-driver


"The trip ride cost the passenger $20. The driver receives $15 and Uber receives $5. The driver pays the GST for both the amount he/she receives AND the commission paid to Uber. The driver pays $2 GST in the above example, this represents 13.33%. Uber pays nothing. The driver covers cost of registration, car maintenance, comprehensive insurance, petrol, use of car, their time & mints/water.

should be

The trip ride cost the passenger $20. The driver receives $15 and Uber receives $5. The driver pays the GST for both the amount he/she receives AND the commission paid to Uber. The driver pays $1.81 GST in the above example. Uber pays nothing. The driver covers cost of registration, car maintenance, comprehensive insurance, petrol, use of car, their time & mints/water.



UberDriverAU said:


> You haven't shown us any evidence that Apple has made a GST payment to the ATO _on your behalf, _rather than on their own behalf_._


Apple sells app, on my behalf, and pays govt the full GST on that app. How is that not on my behalf? After credits are done etc, I pay GST on my share and Apple end up paying GST for only their share. This could be exactly the same for uber, and yet it is not.
Now waiting for the misleading or false information I have posted, as you claim, or are you too now just making stuff up like the other trolls here?


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Please post any comment I have made that turned out to not be true if you want to make a bold statement like that.


As I said earlier, it sounds like an arrangement where the supplier and the intermediary have swapped roles and the intermediary (ie. Apple) is being treated as the supplier for GST purposes. They pay GST on the full amount paid by the customer, and claim a GST credit for the amount paid to you (because you're treated as a supplier to them). Besides the swap in roles for GST purposes, this is no different to any other business purchase and is not a "GST sharing" arrangement.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> As I said earlier, it sounds like an arrangement where the supplier and the intermediary have swapped roles and the intermediary (ie. Apple) is being treated as the supplier for GST purposes. They pay GST on the full amount paid by the customer, and claim a GST credit for the amount paid to you (because you're treated as a supplier to them). Besides the swap in roles for GST purposes, this is no different to any other business purchase and is not a "GST sharing" arrangement.


Correct, but the end result is Apple pays GST on their share and I pay GST on my share. You get that, right?
Now once again, please reference any 'statements that later turned out not to be true.' that I have made or react that claim and apologise.

This is what I said and it is 100% true. I made no mention of the mechanism that is done by, that was you twisting things up.
"Ah, no, two entities, or more can pay the full 100%.
Apple Pay GST on their commission and as an app dev I pay the GST on my 80%."


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Correct, but the end result is Apple pays GST on their share and I pay GST on my share. You get that, right?
> Now once again, please reference any 'statements that later turned out not to be true.' that I have made or react that claim and apologise.


Based on what you have presented to date, I have to say that what you stated turned out to be false. If what you're saying is correct, then I'm already "sharing the GST" with Uber, and this whole petition is completely pointless. In my case:

Fare: $110.00
GST payable by me: $10.00
Uber Fee: $24.20 (22% of fare)
GST payable by Uber: $2.20
GST creditable to me: $2.20

Net amount of GST payable by me: $7.80 (78% of GST on fare)
Net amount of GST payable by Uber: $2.20 (22% of GST on fare)

So there you go, I pay 78% of the GST, and Uber pays 22% of the GST. We're "GST sharing", so happy days!


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Based on what you have presented to date, I have to say that what you stated turned out to be false. If what you're saying is correct, then I'm already "sharing the GST" with Uber, and this whole petition is completely pointless. In my case:
> 
> Fare: $110.00
> GST payable by me: $10.00
> Uber Fee: $24.20 (22% of fare)
> GST payable by Uber: $2.20
> GST creditable to me: $2.20
> Net amount of GST payable by me: $7.80 (78% of GST on fare)
> Net amount of GST payable by Uber: $2.20 (22% of GST on fare)
> So there you go, I pay 78% of the GST, and Uber pays 22% of the GST. We're "GST sharing", so happy days!


Now do the same for a driver who does provide uber with an ABN, as you have not done to uber.

Fare: $110.00
GST payable by me: $10.00
Uber Fee: $22 (20% of fare)
GST payable by Uber: $0
GST creditable to me: $0
Net amount of GST payable by me: $10 (100% of GST on fare)
Net amount of GST payable by Uber: $0 (0% of GST on fare)
So there you go, I pay 100% of the GST, and Uber pays 0% of the GST. We're not "GST sharing", so unhappy days!


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## Hugh G

Apple Pty Ltd is an Australian Entity.

Does this make a diference - as opposed to Uber , which isn't ?


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## Paul Collins

Hugh G said:


> Apple Pty Ltd is an Australian Entity.
> 
> Does this make a diference - as opposed to Uber , which isn't ?
> 
> View attachment 172417


Most likely, however there us Uber Australia Pty Ltd that has an ABN and is GST registered, so it is just a matter of who does the invoicing.

Waiting on UberDriverAU to put up or shut up?
"And he's also been known to boldly make statements that later turned out not to be true."
Ignore it and provide no evidence and you fail.


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## WhiteCro

Apple pie


Paul Collins said:


> Now do the same for a driver who does provide uber with an ABN, as you have not done to uber.
> 
> Fare: $110.00
> GST payable by me: $10.00
> Uber Fee: $22 (20% of fare)
> GST payable by Uber: $0
> GST creditable to me: $0
> Net amount of GST payable by me: $10 (100% of GST on fare)
> Net amount of GST payable by Uber: $0 (0% of GST on fare)
> So there you go, I pay 100% of the GST, and Uber pays 0% of the GST. We're not "GST sharing", so unhappy days!


Correct - Drivers are getting screwed!!!


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Now do the same for a driver who does provide uber with an ABN, as you have not done to uber.
> 
> Fare: $110.00
> GST payable by me: $10.00
> Uber Fee: $22 (20% of fare)
> GST payable by Uber: $0
> GST creditable to me: $0
> Net amount of GST payable by me: $10 (100% of GST on fare)
> Net amount of GST payable by Uber: $0 (0% of GST on fare)
> So there you go, I pay 100% of the GST, and Uber pays 0% of the GST. We're not "GST sharing", so unhappy days!


And the amounts kept by drivers in both situations:

No ABN Provided: $110.00 - $24.20 - $7.80 = *$78.00*
ABN Provided: $110.00 - $22.00 - $10.00 = *$78.00*

Notice how they're *exactly* the same? But those "ABN Provided" drivers should be very unhappy because even though they got to keep the same amount as those "No ABN Provided" drivers, they can't claim that Uber "shared the GST" with them.



WhiteCro said:


> Apple pie
> 
> Correct - Drivers are getting screwed!!!


Yes, they're getting screwed soooo badly that getting what you want makes literally no difference to them whatsoever.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> And the amounts kept by drivers in both situations:
> No ABN Provided: $110.00 - $24.20 - $7.80 = *$78.00*
> ABN Provided: $110.00 - $22.00 - $10.00 = *$78.00*
> Notice how they're *exactly* the same? But those "ABN Provided" drivers should be very unhappy because even though they got to keep the same amount as those "No ABN Provided" drivers, they can't claim that Uber "shared the GST" with them.
> Yes, they're getting screwed soooo badly that getting what you want makes literally no difference to them whatsoever.


Oh I see what you did there, as you often do, divert the argument to a totally different topic, that of income and not who is paying what percentage of the full GST. Nicely done, but totally irrrelevant to the case that Uber should be paying GST on their 20%, not adding it to the top as they do to you a non ABN quoted driver.

Fare: $110.00
Uber Fee: $22 (20% of fare with should be GST inclusive.)
GST payable by Uber: $2
Net to driver $88
Net amount of GST payable by me: $8 (80% of GST on fare)
Net amount of GST payable by Uber: $2 (20% of GST on fare)
So there you go, I pay 80% of the GST, and Uber pays 20% of the GST. We're "GST sharing", so happy days!

ABN Provided: $110.00 - $22.00 - $8.00 = *$80.00
Notice how that is NOT $78
*
This is what I was detailing, by whatever methods are used, that Apple do, they pay the GST on their share. Not add it to the top as Uber are doing for drivers who do not quote an ABN,


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Nicely done, but totally irrrelevant to the case that Uber should be paying GST on their 20%, not adding it to the top as they do to you a non ban quoted driver.


Why should anyone pay GST when no GST is payable? Should Coles and Woolies start paying GST on fresh fruit and water even though these are GST-free items? This notion that GST must be "shared" is a flawed idea that has negligible impact on what drivers keep in their pocket. Even in your so called "GST sharing" example with Apple, the GST arrangement with them is identical to Apple buying a copy of your app from you and selling it to the end user with a markup tacked on. That's not GST sharing at all.


Paul Collins said:


> not adding it to the top as they do to you a non ban quoted driver.
> 
> Fare: $110.00
> Uber Fee: $22 (20% of fare with should be GST inclusive.)
> GST payable by Uber: $2
> Net to driver $88
> Net amount of GST payable by me: $8 (80% of GST on fare)
> Net amount of GST payable by Uber: $2 (20% of GST on fare)
> So there you go, I pay 80% of the GST, and Uber pays 20% of the GST. We're "GST sharing", so happy days!
> 
> ABN Provided: $110.00 - $22.00 - $8.00 = *$80.00*


Why should anyone have to absorb the GST rather than pass it on to their customers? Would you absorb the GST just because someone thought you should?



Paul Collins said:


> This is what I was detailing, by whatever methods are used, that Apple do, they pay the GST on their share. Not add it to the top as Uber are doing for drivers who do not quote an ABN,


That's completely different because Apple Pty Ltd is an Australian company that doesn't fall under the "Netflix Tax" amendments to the GST laws. They must pay GST on all sales because they are an intermediary who has assumed "supplier" status. There is no GST sharing going on, because Apple is 100% liable for the GST payable on app sales to consumers.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Why should anyone pay GST when no GST is payable? Should Coles and Woolies start paying GST on fresh fruit and water even though these are GST-free items? This notion that GST must be "shared" is a flawed idea that has negligible impact on what drivers keep in their pocket. Even in your so called "GST sharing" example with Apple, the GST arrangement with them is identical to Apple buying a copy of your app from you and selling it to the end user with a markup tacked on. That's not GST sharing at all.
> 
> Why should anyone have to absorb the GST rather than pass it on to their customers? Would you absorb the GST just because someone thought you should?
> 
> That's completely different because Apple Pty Ltd is an Australian company that doesn't fall under the "Netflix Tax" amendments to the GST laws. They must pay GST on all sales because they are an intermediary who has assumed "supplier" status. There is no GST sharing going on, because Apple is 100% liable for the GST payable on app sales to consumers.


ABN Provided: $110.00 - $22.00 - $8.00 = *$80.00
Notice how that is NOT $78

Notice how MS, not an AU company doing the invoicing, includes GST and does not add it to the top.

Uber should be paying GST as inclusive in their 20 or 25%.









*


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> ABN Provided: $110.00 - $22.00 - $8.00 = *$80.00
> Notice how that is NOT $78*


Paul, can you name one sane businessman who if they had to start paying a 10% tax, would not raise prices by 10%?

Uber raising prices by 10% where GST is payable by them is completely sane, rational, reasonable, and to be expected.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Paul, can you name one sane businessman who if they had to start paying a 10% tax, would not raise prices by 10%?
> 
> Uber raising prices by 10% where GST is payable by them is completely sane, rational, reasonable, and to be expected.


And yet...
*
Uber should be paying GST as inclusive in their 20 or 25% as it is an AU sale and the full GST is payable.
*
ABN Provided and the way it should be: $110.00 - $22.00 - $8.00 = $80.00
*Notice how that is NOT $78

MS did not add 10% to the **top, they included the GST into the price, as uber should.*

I notice you have not provided any reference to where I made a statement and it turned out not to be true. I suppose you are allowed to do that as an anon bot, just make stuff up and not bear any responsibility for it. Well done.


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## WhiteCro

Thank you Paul!


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## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> Thank you Paul!


Let me put it another way which make it very clear.
Currently Uber is taking 20 or 25% of a total that includes GST so therefore they are taking a percentage of the GST and that is totally wrong.

Fare: $110.00
GST payable by driver: $10
Net fare to work out fees etc :$100
Uber Fee: $20 (20% of actual net fare)
GST payable by Uber: $0
Net to driver : $80 (80% of actual fare)
So there you go, I pay 100% of the GST, and Uber pays 0% of the GST. We're not "GST sharing", so unhappy days but I still make $80, which is not $78 using the current bullshit method.

Actually so glad UberDriverAU actually made it about what we actually earn as it is very clear to see that we earn less as Uber are changing a fee on a tax, which actually is illegal. (Edit- I may be wrong on the legality but ethically they should only be taking their free on the total fare ex GST, regardless of what their contact says)



UberDriverAU said:


> The problem you have is the organisation that interprets and applies the law (the ATO) doesn't agree with you, they agree with what I'm saying. You're not going to get anywhere without a successful court case or amended legislation. Good luck with your endeavour, but I can't see it getting anywhere.


Bahahahaha, the ATO agree with an anonymous bot. Too funny. Do the ato also agree that charging a fee or a commission on a tax is legal?


----------



## UberDriverAU

Sorry Paul, but your misunderstanding of the GST system shines through yet again. We've already debated this many times before, and I'm not going to waste more time on it. Perhaps you are trying to get this thread locked as well.

The fact remains, drivers pay GST on the full amount paid by their customers, and where GST is payable by Uber, they pay GST on the full amount paid by their customers. That you think Uber should absorb the GST payable by them is irrelevant, and doesn't change the facts.



Paul Collins said:


> Actually so glad UberDriverAU actually made it about what we actually earn as it is very clear to see that we earn less as Uber are changing a fee on a tax, which actually is illegal.


What planet are you from Paul? Uber paying GST results in $78 in my pocket for a $110 fare, as does Uber not paying GST. What you are asking for is to receive more when Uber doesn't pay GST. Why should you get paid more or less depending on whether or not Uber pays GST? Give us a logical and rational explanation.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Sorry Paul, but your misunderstanding of the GST system shines through yet again. We've already debated this many times before, and I'm not going to waste more time on it. Perhaps you are trying to get this thread locked as well.
> 
> The fact remains, drivers pay GST on the full amount paid by their customers, and where GST is payable by Uber, they pay GST on the full amount paid by their customers. That you think Uber should absorb the GST payable by them is irrelevant, and doesn't change the facts.
> 
> What planet are you from Paul? Uber paying GST results in $78 in my pocket for a $110 fare, as does Uber not paying GST. What you are asking for is to receive more when Uber doesn't pay GST. Why should you get paid more or less depending on whether or not Uber pays GST? Give us a logical and rational explanation.


Great do not waste more time. 
I was not the one to make any personal abuse, you were. Come in make false accusations, provide no evidence then shove off when you are shown to be incorrect. Dear me....

Let me estate it again, Uber are charging a 20% or 25% fee on a GST inclusive amount. They are charing a fee on a tax and that is illegal.

Current method for uber...
For a year for example.....
Fare: $55,000
GST payable by driver: $5,000
Net fare to work out fees etc :$55,000
Uber Fee: $11,000 (20% of actual GST inc total fare)
GST payable by Uber: $0
*Net to driver : $39,000 *

The way it should be with no change to the driver paying 100% of the GST, but getting uber to work out there fee on the GST ex total fares.
For a year for example.....
Fare: $55,000
GST payable by driver: $5,000
Net fare to work out fees etc :$50,000
Uber Fee: $10,000 (20% of actual GST ex total fare)
GST payable by Uber: $0
*Net to driver : $40,000 *

Your $78 amount is irrelevant as the driver should be earning $80 and you, as an anonymous bot, might have to study that and consult your ATO contacts.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Uber are changing a fee on a tax, which actually is illegal.


What law does this break? This is how pretty much all payment services work. All the banks, PayPal, Square, etc. They all take a percentage of what the customer pays, exactly as Uber does. You should get onto the ACCC and let them know all of these companies are breaking the law by taking a percentage of the GST from GST registered businesses. Let us know how you go on your crusade.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Come in make false accusations, provide no evidence then shove off when you are shown to be incorrect. Dear me....


Sorry Paul, but you came in claiming that Apple shares the GST with developers, when in reality Apple takes on 100% of the GST liability for app sales. Your statement is uncategorically incorrect.



Paul Collins said:


> They are charing a fee on a tax and that is illegal.


It happens all the time. Petrol, alcohol, and tobacco products all have excise taxes and GST embedded in the price of the product and when you get slugged a credit card surcharge you are paying a fee on all those taxes. All that illegality must make your blood boil!



Paul Collins said:


> Notice how MS, not an AU company doing the invoicing, includes GST and does not add it to the top.


Ummm, did you actually read the invoice? The price of the game is $136.77, then GST of $13.68 is added on to bring the total up to $150.45.


----------



## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> Thank you Paul!


Beware the trolls in this forum. Your crusade is just and uber are not doing the right thing. Your wording in the petition needs a little fixing up.

Bottom line Uber are not taking 20% or 25% as they publish, they are taking 22% and 27.5% due to them calculating there fee on the GST inclusive fare. Just wrong.



UberDriverAU said:


> dribble...





UberDriverAU said:


> some more dribble....


Sorry, since you are happy to make ad hominem attacks, I have run out of hay for you.


----------



## Hugh G

A quick check of the numbers who have now signed up for this petition to Uber after these latest comments indicates a rise of 50% !

It was 2 who supported it yesterday, it has now rocketed up to 3 supporters !


----------



## Paul Collins

Hugh G said:


> A quick check of the numbers who have now signed up for this petition to Uber after these latest comments indicates a rise of 50% !
> 
> It was 2 who supported it yesterday, it has now rocketed up to 3 supporters !


I will add a link to my social media group with 6600 members and see how many sign up. The cause is good and the fact that trolls here want to discourage him from trying to make things better for all drivers, is telling.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Sorry, since you are happy to make ad hominem attacks, I have run out of hay for you.


More likely, your argument has more holes in it that a piece of Swiss cheese. If charging a fee on a tax is illegal, then charging a credit card surcharge on any "including GST" price must be illegal according to your argument. Why haven't we seen any court cases about this very widespread and allegedly illegal behaviour? Perhaps because it isn't illegal?


----------



## Paul Collins

Hugh G said:


> A quick check of the numbers who have now signed up for this petition to Uber after these latest comments indicates a rise of 50% !
> 
> It was 2 who supported it yesterday, it has now rocketed up to 3 supporters !


Looks like 8 to me. 400% rise?
Edit- 22 now. Seems the drivers in social media are more proactive than the bots here.


----------



## Kah Chere

Surely the question is, "Are we contractors?" 
I think not because we do not determine the amount we are paid for the work we do.
Neither are we employees because we do not get leave etc. 
Uber are operating in a grey area of workplace exploitation for their gain.
I think London did the right thing by banning Uber. But if that happened here I would not have the opportunity to work for $10/hr.
Lord Shaftsbury stopped children earning by preventing them working - What a bastard some thought.
The Topuddle Matyrs wanted a fair wage for agricultural labourers and were given a holiday in Van Diemen's land.
Gough gave women equal pay showing that legislation is really the way to a fair reward for work.
This petition has behind it the idea of fairness.. Good on you


----------



## Paul Collins

I removed it as I had second thoughts about posting it. I fear I am feeding the trolls again.
This thread was locked and now is unlocked. Back under your rock.
https://uberpeople.net/threads/what-business-structure-are-you-using.211919/

Petition now at 32 thanks to social media. I suppose that also shows that members here are not willing to do much at all to improve drivers conditions or rates. Rather, you all seem to focus on personal attacks of those that do try.

What percentage increase is that Hugh to 32 since you were so keen earlier to point out the percentage gain before I did some social media posts. Come on, what percentage? I bet you hide back under your rock.

How many members here are supporting this person to get a better deal for drivers and how many are just plain trolling? Seems pretty obvious to me. This forum is full of anonymous trolls who just want to whinge, appear as they know it all and boast about their knowledge even though they are anonymous and therefore irrelevant, throw personal attacks and do absolutely nothing to improve driver conditions.

I am happy to support any driver who wants to make conditions better and I certainly would not start that as personal attacks or belittling the poster.

Not one post in the social media group bagging the poster. Just support from people who are not anonymous. So are members here actually Uber Drivers at all?


----------



## WhiteCro

100% agree with the above comments Paul.


----------



## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> 100% agree with the above comments Paul.


41 now.


----------



## WhiteCro

Paul Collins said:


> 41 now.


Make that 53


----------



## WhiteCro

As already stated, the pax wouldnt sit in the car if they hadnt used the Uber service!


----------



## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> As already stated, the pax wouldnt sit in the car if they hadnt used the Uber service!


If you had a million signatures on your petition, what would it change? What you seem to be claiming is that 25% of the trip revenue belongs to Uber directly, rather than 100% of it belonging to you and you then pay a commission to Uber. So in your eyes, the rider pays you 75% and Uber 25%. That's the only way I could see that someone might feel they're paying "Uber's share of the GST". Does that sum up your position?

People already have the option of making Uber pay GST on their commission because they can choose not to provide Uber with their ABN and GST details. Uber then has to pay GST on all of their fees, and you can claim GST credits on all of their fees. So "in effect" Uber is already "paying their share" for drivers who haven't provided their ABN and GST details.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> If you had a million signatures on your petition, what would it change? What you seem to be claiming is that 25% of the trip revenue belongs to Uber directly, rather than 100% of it belonging to you and you then pay a commission to Uber. So in your eyes, the rider pays you 75% and Uber 25%. That's the only way I could see that someone might feel they're paying "Uber's share of the GST". Does that sum up your position?
> 
> People already have the option of making Uber pay GST on their commission because they can choose not to provide Uber with their ABN and GST details. Uber then has to pay GST on all of their fees, and you can claim GST credits on all of their fees. So "in effect" Uber is already "paying their share" for drivers who haven't provided their ABN and GST details.


I am more than happy to pay Uber their 20 or 25% of the total fare excluding GST. That is the point, Uber are taking a % of the GST that we take and must pay in full, so in reality the fee is 22% and 27.5%.

I would also be happy for them to take their 20 or 25 % of the total fare in GST if that fee was inclusive of GST that I could claim as a GST credit. As you know, at the moment Uber are simply adding 10% to their fee for drivers that have not provided their ABN/GST.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> so in reality the fee is 22% and 27.5%.


Which they clearly stated would be the case in their last Service Fee Addendum, did they not?








I think what this boils down to is a desire for more money, but for some reason it's being dressed up as a GST issue rather than simply asking for more.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Which they clearly stated would be the case in their last Service Fee Addendum, did they not?
> View attachment 172722
> 
> I think what this boils down to is a desire for more money, but for some reason it's being dressed up as a GST issue rather than simply asking for more.


In the above, it is misleading as the Service fee listed as 20 and 25% is actually 22 and 27.5% in reality as Uber are taking their fee on the total fare gst inclusive.

You are correct, it is an argument to get more for drivers by asking that the Uber fee be calculated on the total fare excluding GST.

Actually I suspect that the fees listed in your image as 22 and 27.5% are actually much higher. Need to run the numbers.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> In the above, it is misleading as the Service fee listed as 20 and 25% is actually 22 and 27.5% in reality as Uber are taking their fee on the total fare gst inclusive.


Which, again, is not illegal and a very widespread practice. If you have an issue with Uber doing this, why not everyone else that does it? In my case Uber states they will take 22%, and they take 22% whether it's GST inclusive or exclusive amounts we're talking about. There's nothing misleading about that.


----------



## Paul Collins

No abn quoted 22% test.....
$55 fare
Gst $5
Uber fees are 22% of the $55 = $12.10
Fare total ex GST = $50
Uber fee is *24.2% as $12.10 as a % of $50

Ah no, if Uber were taking 22% of the total ex gst it would be $11
*
It is misleading as Uber are taking a % of the GST which must be paid in full by the driver. If GST on the fare is $10, then Uber are taking $2 or $2.50 as their fee but the driver still has to pay the ATO the full $10.

I realise that the sham contact probably states that their % is on total fares including all taxes etc but most drivers simply do not understand what that means.

I think what James is getting at is that Uber should be paying gst on their fees as inclusive in the 20 or 25% similar to what has been described before as the way Apple, MS and Google do it.

At the moment Uber dors it quite differently to the companies mentioned above.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> No abn quoted 22% test.....
> $55 fare
> Gst $5
> Uber fees are 22% of the $55 = $12.10
> Fare total ex GST = $50
> Uber fee is *24.2% as $12.10 as a % of $50
> 
> Ah no, if Uber were taking 22% of the total ex gst it would be $11*


You are mixing an including GST price with an excluding GST price which will lead to a misleading result.

The Uber fee for me is 20% + 2% for GST, so:

Fare (Inc GST): $55.00
Fare (Exc GST): $50.00
GST on Fare: $5.00
Uber Fee (Inc GST): $12.10 (What Uber charges drivers)
Uber Fee (Exc GST): $11.00 (What Uber keeps)
GST on Uber Fee: $1.10 (What Uber pays to the ATO)

Uber Fee (Inc GST) / Fare (Inc GST) = $12.10 / $55.00 = 22.00%
Uber Fee (Exc GST) / Fare (Exc GST) = $11.00 / $50.00 = 22.00%



Paul Collins said:


> I think what James is getting at is that Uber should be paying gst on their fees as inclusive in the 20 or 25% similar to what has been described before as the way Apple, MS and Google do it.


I think we have established that Apple does not operate the way that you have described. Apple is the supplier for GST purposes (thereby taking on 100% of the GST liability for app sales) as allowed for by division 153 of the GST act.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> You are mixing an including GST price with an excluding GST price which will lead to a misleading result.
> 
> The Uber fee for me is 20% + 2% for GST, so:
> 
> Fare (Inc GST): $55.00
> Fare (Exc GST): $50.00
> GST on Fare: $5.00
> Uber Fee (Inc GST): $12.10 (What Uber charges drivers)
> Uber Fee (Exc GST): $11.00 (What Uber keeps)
> GST on Uber Fee: $1.10 (What Uber pays to the ATO)
> 
> Uber Fee (Inc GST) / Fare (Inc GST) = $12.10 / $55.00 = 22.00%
> Uber Fee (Exc GST) / Fare (Exc GST) = $11.00 / $50.00 = 22.00%
> 
> I think we have established that Apple does not operate the way that you have described. Apple is the supplier for GST purposes (thereby taking on 100% of the GST liability for app sales) as allowed for by division 153 of the GST act.


Sure, you are happy, I get that but many would like to see (those who have quoted an ABN) the uber fee (20 or 25%) as inclusive of GST and to have an GST input credit to use and in effect, higher earnings for drivers.

Apple is different and they do it correctly. On an app sale with $10 gst in it, Apple Pay $2 and I pay $8 as their fee is inclusive of GST. Uber is also taking 100% of the GST when 'they' charge a rider.


----------



## WhiteCro

You know in the america Uber had to pay back millions to drivers yeh?


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Sure, you are happy, I get that but many would like to see (those who have quoted an ABN) the uber fee (20 or 25%) as inclusive of GST and to have an GST input credit to use and in effect, higher earnings for drivers.


You understand that if Uber absorbs the GST where they have to pay it, it means those who haven't provided their ABN and GST details are better off than those who have?



WhiteCro said:


> You know in the america Uber had to pay back millions to drivers yeh?


If you're referring to what happened in New York, they took more than the contract stated they would take. That's a pretty simple breach of contract. That's not the case here in Australia, where they are taking what the contract specifies they will take.


----------



## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> That's not the case here in Australia, where they are taking what the contract specifies they will take.


They are not paying their GST portion and are expecting to get a free ride in Australia... That wont last!


----------



## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> They are not paying their GST portion and are expecting to get a free ride in Australia... That wont last!


You can make them pay GST if you want:


UberDriverAU said:


> Uber Fee (Inc GST): $12.10 (What Uber charges drivers)
> Uber Fee (Exc GST): $11.00 (What Uber keeps)
> GST on Uber Fee: $1.10 (What Uber pays to the ATO)


But you choose not to?


----------



## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> They are not paying their GST portion and are expecting to get a free ride in Australia... That wont last!


They are paying GST by adding 10% to their fee for drivers who do not quote them their abn. This is not what you and other want. We want their fee to be inclusive of GST and for us to be able to use it as a gst credit.
UberDriverAU is correct and it proves they are setup to actually remit GST.
Since it is an ato requirement that all drivers have an abn, Uber's request for abn details is somewhat meaningless.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> This is not what you and other want. We want their fee to be inclusive of GST and for us to be able to use it as a gst credit.


And as explained many times, you have the power to make this so. Let's face it, this isn't really about GST at all, because whether you provide your details or not the bottom line is the same:










In both cases $5 is payable to the ATO, in both cases the driver keeps $39, and in both cases Uber keeps $11. The difference is receiving more now and paying more GST later, or receiving less now and paying less GST later. Decide which way you prefer to go, and don't whinge that one way doesn't give you more than the other. Why should it? Uber isn't going to change the way they handle the GST. The ATO isn't going to do anything, because nothing illegal is being done by Uber (in this instance!), and no laws are going to be changed because everything is happening as it was designed to. If you want to argue for a pay rise, that's a completely separate argument, and perhaps that would be a better petition to run than demanding something that is already 100% within your control.


----------



## Wayne01

I have read all the posts... There is one nagging question... 
So as in the USA and possibly here???
The trip is $110 in the way bill. So without arguing the point. We are paying GST on 100% of the $110. Got it so far. 
We are providing the tax invoice to the customer... Ok Got that one. 
1/ What happens if and when our way bill says $110 but Uber charges $150 ($40 extra) but does not pass that 40 onto the UBER Driver. 
2/ Customer calls to complain. So A) UBER refunds the full amount to the customer. B) corrects the 75% money off us. C) We then complain and get the money back but UBER does not charge the customer again for the extra 25%. 
So... We are paying GST on a extra 25% that in reality we should not have to as UBER has paid us only for the 75% and the extra 25% no longer exists. 
Mind Blown... 
3B/ Is this then a service between UBER a international company and an Australian ABN? If so what does that mean?


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> And as explained many times, you have the power to make this so. Let's face it, this isn't really about GST at all, because whether you provide your details or not the bottom line is the same:
> 
> View attachment 173001
> 
> 
> In both cases $5 is payable to the ATO, in both cases the driver keeps $39, and in both cases Uber keeps $11. The difference is receiving more now and paying more GST later, or receiving less now and paying less GST later. Decide which way you prefer to go, and don't whinge that one way doesn't give you more than the other. Why should it? Uber isn't going to change the way they handle the GST. The ATO isn't going to do anything, because nothing illegal is being done by Uber (in this instance!), and no laws are going to be changed because everything is happening as it was designed to. If you want to argue for a pay rise, that's a completely separate argument, and perhaps that would be a better petition to run than demanding something that is already 100% within your control.


And as I have said many times before, the petition is for the Uber fee to be GST inclusive for drivers that have provided their ABN details, not the odd few who have not.
Or as Uber calculate their 20 or 25% on the total fares including GST, they should change that an charge their % on the total fare excluding GST.

Just to be clear, you agree that the Uber fees is based on the total fare including GST and for you that is fine. When in reality that means that the actual percentage that Uber takes is 22 and 27.5% not 20 and 22% as the driver must remit the full GST and Uber are taking a percentage of that tax.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> And as I have said many times before, the petition is for the Uber fee to be GST inclusive for drivers that have provided their ABN details, not the odd few who have not.


I think you're greatly underestimating the number of drivers that haven't provided their ABN details. Do you recall that Uber back flipped on requiring ABN and GST details, or drivers would be deactivated? Why do you think they back flipped?


Paul Collins said:


> Or as Uber calculate their 20 or 25% on the total fares including GST, they should change that an charge their % on the total fare excluding GST.


And again, why should Uber do something that very few (if any?) other businesses do? Can you give me even five examples of a business who set their commission or fees based on the excluding GST price? There are thousands upon thousands of businesses that charge fees based on the price paid (ie. including GST) by the customer. Does your company absorb the GST, or do you pass this cost on to your customers? Why don't you set an example for Uber and take a hit on your profitability?


Paul Collins said:


> Just to be clear, you agree that the Uber fees is based on the total fare including GST and for you that is fine. When in reality that means that the actual percentage that Uber takes is 22 and 27.5% not 20 and 22% as the driver must remit the full GST and Uber are taking a percentage of that tax.


Paul, anyone who can read the latest Service Fee Addendum will know what percentage of the fare that Uber takes. And anyone with some basic analytical skill will now what percentage goes to Uber, what percentage goes to the ATO, and what percentage goes towards fuel, servicing, tyres, etc.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> I think you're greatly underestimating the number of drivers that haven't provided their ABN details. Do you recall that Uber back flipped on requiring ABN and GST details, or drivers would be deactivated? Why do you think they back flipped?
> 
> And again, why should Uber do something that very few (if any?) other businesses do? Can you give me even five examples of a business who set their commission or fees based on the excluding GST price? There are thousands upon thousands of businesses that charge fees based on the price paid (ie. including GST) by the customer. Does your company absorb the GST, or do you pass this cost on to your customers? Why don't you set an example for Uber and take a hit on your profitability?
> 
> Paul, anyone who can read the latest Service Fee Addendum will know what percentage of the fare that Uber takes. And anyone with some basic analytical skill will now what percentage goes to Uber, what percentage goes to the ATO, and what percentage goes towards fuel, servicing, tyres, etc.


 We agree, Uber are taking a percentage of the total fare including GST and it is not a small percentage like a credit card company it is 20 or 25%.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> We agree, Uber are taking a percentage of the total fare including GST and it is not a small percentage like a credit card company it is 20 or 25%.


Right. So it's the amount and not the practice that's the issue, correct? If not, then when will you decrease your company's prices by 1/11th so that you absorb the GST for your customers? This is not a case of do as I say, but not as I do is it Paul?


----------



## fields

A rather odd petition which seeks to make a company pay tax which it legally doesn't have to. I would be a lot more supportive if the petition was about abolishing GST altogether for those Uber and taxi drivers earning less than 75k. Where for instance is David Leyonhjelm's private member's bill on this issue? Something he promised us prior to the elections.

Or a petition which seeks to make Uber's commission GST free, as it always should have been.


----------



## Sydney Uber

UberDriverAU said:


> You're right, it is very simple: we don't.
> 
> If you had a $110 fare, how much GST would be payable by you, and how much assessable income would you have?


I'm a little slow off the mark on this, but the issue is that's it's OK for us to pay the 10% ($10.00) GST on the example above. But then UBER also calculates its commission on the GROSS amount. This is fraudulent and has been the case since day one.

We don't need a petition, we need a class action to have the difference refunded back.



fields said:


> A rather odd petition which seeks to make a company pay tax which it legally doesn't have to. I would be a lot more supportive if the petition was about abolishing GST altogether for those Uber and taxi drivers earning less than 75k. Where for instance is David Leyonhjelm's private member's bill on this issue? Something he promised us prior to the elections.
> 
> Or a petition which seeks to make Uber's commission GST free, as it always should have been.


A rare area we disagree on Mr Fields!

The ATO rightly categorised rideshare services as a Taxi service carried out for commercial gain. Because Taxi driving is part of the new Gig economy whilst providing tax deductible services to individuals the 75k threshold would see many businesses without compliant tax receipts at the end of a trip if Cabbies/ UberX drivers didn't reach that threshold or failed to register for GST.

If Uber decided to set up a donut stand beside Krespy Kreme, use volunteers to man it 24/7 who donated ALL their time to making (better/ cheaper) donuts to raise funds for charities then that would not be a commercial venture. The good folk selling them are sharing their time. Uber would also legally charge a commission on the sale of each donut without GST implications if they distribute the earnings after expenses to charities.

Uber has never been a charity, UBER drivers have tried their very best NOT ato be a charity


----------



## Paul Collins

fields said:


> A rather odd petition which seeks to make a company pay tax which it legally doesn't have to. I would be a lot more supportive if the petition was about abolishing GST altogether for those Uber and taxi drivers earning less than 75k. Where for instance is David Leyonhjelm's private member's bill on this issue? Something he promised us prior to the elections.
> 
> Or a petition which seeks to make Uber's commission GST free, as it always should have been.


Uber's commission is GST free if a driver quotes their ABN to uber.



Sydney Uber said:


> I'm a little slow off the mark on this, but the issue is that's it's OK for us to pay the 10% ($10.00) GST on the example above. But then UBER also calculates its commission on the GROSS amount. This is fraudulent and has been the case since day one.


Correct and even thought this is common, as UberDriverAU has pointed out, it is deceptive to then say that ubers commission is 20 or 25% when in reality to the driver it is 22 and 27.5%.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> Uber's commission is GST free if a driver quotes their ABN to uber.
> 
> Correct and even thought this is common, as UberDriverAU has pointed out, it is deceptive to then say that ubers commission is 20 or 25% when in reality to the driver it is 22 and 27.5%.


Paul!!!!even thought you are such a brilliant mind,please do not mess up with the rest of poor uber drivers who can not follow your absolute wisdom of telling us that 20 is 22 or 25 is 27.5,it is too much to take in this confusing world.
Must be hard to have a great intellect and no one else to communicate with.


----------



## Sydney Uber

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> Paul!!!!even thought you are such a brilliant mind,please do not mess up with the rest of poor uber drivers who can not follow your absolute wisdom of telling us that 20 is 22 or 25 is 27.5,it is too much to take in this confusing world.
> Must be hard to have a great intellect and no one else to communicate with.


I don't understand your reasoning. I am trying to.

GST is calculated and remitted off the gross of the fare.

Uber should not be calculating its commission off the Gross.

Uber is effectively taking a commission off the GST portion - very very naughty !


----------



## Paul Collins

Sydney Uber said:


> I don't understand your reasoning. I am trying to.
> 
> GST is calculated and remitted off the gross of the fare.
> 
> Uber should not be calculating its commission off the Gross.
> 
> Uber is effectively taking a commission off the GST portion - very very naughty !


Correct. The fee should be of total fare ex gst.


----------



## Sydney Uber

Paul Collins said:


> Correct. The fee should be of total fare ex gst.


Phew! Just was starting doubt myself then.

Uber really needs to REFUND 2.5% it has illegally taken off EVERY GST registered driver from day 1.

I'm glad there is growing understanding of this. I may engage some legal advice regarding a class action. It takes one person to lead the charge, and another 99 to sign on. (Uber Black drivers have been hardest hit by this)

I'm real busy at the moment Paul, i'll get you 99 others if you lead the charge. The way class actions are carried out, if the legal team think it's worthwhile they carry ALL the costs and risks.

You wanna give it a go?


----------



## UberDriverAU

Sydney Uber said:


> I don't understand your reasoning. I am trying to.
> 
> GST is calculated and remitted off the gross of the fare.
> 
> Uber should not be calculating its commission off the Gross.
> 
> Uber is effectively taking a commission off the GST portion - very very naughty !


Is every payment services provider also being very very naughty by taking a commission on the GST inclusive price? And what about every business that charges a credit card surcharge on the GST inclusive price? Are they also being very very naughty?



Sydney Uber said:


> I'm glad there is growing understanding of this. I may engage some legal advice regarding a class action. It takes one person to lead the charge, and another 99 to sign on. (Uber Black drivers have been hardest hit by this)


Make sure you take out the thousands of other businesses that are operating illegally too!


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Is every payment services provider also being very very naughty by taking a commission on the GST inclusive price? And what about every business that charges a credit card surcharge on the GST inclusive price? Are they also being very very naughty?
> 
> Make sure you take out the thousands of other businesses that are operating illegally too!


How many of these other companies would be taking a fee on total sales inc gst and not having that fee as gst inc as well? Real question.

Merchant fees are gst inc and a credit can be claimed for the gst on these fees.

https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/GST...ial-services---questions-and-answers/?page=39

'Example

If the retailer makes credit card sales of $110,000, the retailer's GST liability will be $10,000. If the merchant fee is 0.55%, the retailer will be charged $605 by the financial institution which will include $55 of GST. The financial institution will deduct $605 from the $110,000 and remit the remainder of the money to the merchant.'

Is not Uber providing a digital service and they should be subject to GST?
https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Int...to-Australia/#GSTonservicesanddigitalproducts

Seems the ATO have no idea if Uber fees should or should not include gst.

https://community.ato.gov.au/t5/General-tax-questions/UBER-fee-Income-tax-return/m-p/1482#M1181

Seems the ATO understand it as 27.5%

https://uberpeople.net/threads/ato-live-chat---q-a-ride-sourcing-and-tax.28951/page-6#post-388361

Mmmm. Bits who do not give their abn details should have 49% held by Uber.

'As an aside to the foregoing, there is a general requirement for a person making a payment (payer) to withhold (and remit to the ATO) 49% of a payment where the person receiving the payment (payee) makes a supply to the payer in the course of an enterprise carried on in Australia and does not quote an ABN. The withholding obligation is subject to several exceptions, one which is where the payer is not acquiring the supply in the course of an enterprise. Another exception is where the amount is below the threshold for provision of a tax invoice (as discussed below). Given these exceptions, one might anticipate the question of the need to withhold part of uber payment will not commonly arise, but at present it appears the uber system does not accommodate this requirement.'

From https://taxed.com.au/gst-the-uber-decision-and-its-implications/


----------



## Sydney Uber

UberDriverAU said:


> Is every payment services provider also being very very naughty by taking a commission on the GST inclusive price? And what about every business that charges a credit card surcharge on the GST inclusive price? Are they also being very very naughty?
> 
> Make sure you take out the thousands of other businesses that are operating illegally too!


Hey UBAU! Are you one of the lucky few that have shares in UBER? I hear they're restricted somewhat, can't be sold till 2020 or 21? Gotta get UBER past that little hurdle on the horizon

Just a rumour I heard


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

....Now I'm totally confused!!!,it is exactly opposite to what you were saying on the National Radio,Paul !!!!,can you explain please what made you to flip a 180 degrees????.
It seems like you are taking a firm stand on your new positions as quickly as the old ones has been proven wrong and compromised or uber changed phone number ???


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

Sydney Uber said: ↑
I don't understand your reasoning. I am trying to.

GST is calculated and remitted off the gross of the fare.

Uber should not be calculating its commission off the Gross.

Uber is effectively taking a commission off the GST portion - very very naughty !
Correct. The fee should be of total fare ex gst.

In God we trust, all others must bring data....
Paul Collins, Yesterday at 10:24 PM Report
#89 Like + Quote Reply
Sydney Uber likes this.

As far as the Law is concern it is nothing illegal but it is very unethical how Uber conduct business, and you Paul,your position was totally different on this matter before you were proven wrong by people who know TAX LAW and ATO


----------



## AvengingxxAngel

WhiteCro said:


> Its very simple - Drivers shouldn't have to pay GST on what Uber receives!


I was under the impression passengers are charged GST and we are passing it on.


----------



## Jack Malarkey

AvengingxxAngel said:


> I was under the impression passengers are charged GST and we are passing it on.


In a strict legal sense, we pay the GST as the supplier of the service and pass on the cost to the passenger.


----------



## Paul Collins

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ....Now I'm totally confused!!!,it is exactly opposite to what you were saying on the National Radio,Paul !!!!,can you explain please what made you to flip a 180 degrees????.
> It seems like you are taking a firm stand on your new positions as quickly as the old ones has been proven wrong and compromised or uber changed phone number ???


Ah no. The message I got across on national radio is that the GST is paid in full in Oz. That is true. The issue here we are discussing is to why drivers do not get a get credit on the uber fees as normal and when driver have quoted their ban to uber.


----------



## AvengingxxAngel

Uber charges you GST on the gross amount (if you don't supply your GST number) then add it to your earnings.
Does that mean you don't pay GST because Uber has? Then they charge you for it?


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> Ah no. The message I got across on national radio is that the GST is paid in full in Oz. That is true. The issue here we are discussing is to why drivers do not get a get credit on the uber fees as normal and when driver have quoted their ban to uber.


Paul,with all respect,you know very little about the Tax Laws in Australia and I'm afraid that what you knew was totally wrong and that is why you are in trouble with ATO and ATO is advising you to mend your ways...
Next time you are on National Radio or National Television please tell about this problem uber drivers are facing as most of us are a Layman as the tax laws are concern.
P.S.On the way out of a Studio do not forget to clean off makeup as in a daylight all "mascara" look rather strange...Have a few memories from my days working in the studio as people would walk out and generate bewilderment in onlookers even yet in some cases it was an improvement....


----------



## Paul Collins

AvengingxxAngel said:


> Uber charges you GST on the gross amount (if you don't supply your GST number) then add it to your earnings.
> Does that mean you don't pay GST because Uber has? Then they charge you for it?


Ah, Uber does not charge GST. GST is paid on the total fare by the rider and we remit it to the ATO less any GST credits. If the Uber fee was GST inclusive then a GST credit would be available to all drivers who provide their ABN to Uber.
If you do not provide your ABN to Uber then Uber add 10% to their fees as GST, which the driver can use as a GST credit.
Uber should in theory be withholding 49% of the fare from these drivers for not quoting their ABN to pay the ATO as income tax for that driver, but they are not, yet....


----------



## AvengingxxAngel

Paul Collins said:


> Uber should in theory be withholding 49% of the fare from these drivers for not quoting their ABN to pay the ATO as income tax for that driver


I'm pretty sure Uber doesn't care about whether or not drivers submit their ABN or GST numbers. Withholding tax would mean they're trying to be responsible, lol.


----------



## Paul Collins

AvengingxxAngel said:


> I'm pretty sure Uber doesn't care about whether or not drivers submit their ABN or GST numbers. Withholding tax would mean they're trying to be responsible, lol.


Uber do care. If a driver does not submit their ABN then Uber have to remit and extra 10% on their fee as GST.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

it is not a matter if uber care or not care,it is rather what uber is made to comply...Pick up the phone and ring uber and ask...


----------



## Jack Malarkey

fields said:


> I would be a lot more supportive if the petition was about abolishing GST altogether for those Uber and taxi drivers earning less than 75k. Where for instance is David Leyonhjelm's private member's bill on this issue? Something he promised us prior to the elections.


fields, I don't believe Senator Leyonhjelm has yet introduced a private member's bill on this matter but he has sought a costing from the Parliamentary Budget Office: http://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/05 About Parliament/54 Parliamentary Depts/548 Parliamentary Budget Office/Publicly released costings/Taxation of Uber and taxis DOC.docx?la=en.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> How many of these other companies would be taking a fee on total sales inc gst and not having that fee as gst inc as well? Real question.


The situation you describe can only happen with an overseas supplier of intangibles, and it has only been possible since the 1st o f July 2017 (when the Netflix Tax amendments became operational), and only happens where the purchaser actively gives their ABN and GST registration details to the supplier. In effect, you are given an immediate GST credit when you give your ABN and GST details, rather than having to wait until your next BAS. As already demonstrated, besides a small difference is short term cash flow (eg. I receive a 2.5% lower initial payout), there is no net difference between giving and not giving your ABN and GST details. People like to rant and rave that they're being short changed somehow if no GST is payable on Uber's fees, when in reality there is no difference to their bottom line either way.


Paul Collins said:


> Ah, Uber does not charge GST. GST is paid on the total fare by the rider and we remit it to the ATO less any GST credits. If the Uber fee was GST inclusive then a GST credit would be available to all drivers who provide their ABN to Uber.
> If you do not provide your ABN to Uber then Uber add 10% to their fees as GST, which the driver can use as a GST credit.
> Uber should in theory be withholding 49% of the fare from these drivers for not quoting their ABN to pay the ATO as income tax for that driver, but they are not, yet....


What does the word "payable" mean? This is what the crux of a lot of peoples misunderstanding of the GST revolves around. When you make a taxable supply, GST becomes _payable_ by you_. _If something is _payable_ that means it hasn't been _paid_ yet_._ GST is only paid when you the supplier meet your GST obligation with the ATO. GST isn't collected and passed on in the way it's often explained, it's levied on the supplier and it's expected that the supplier would generally pass this cost on in the form of higher prices. This is how indirect taxes are designed to work. It is how the law is framed, and it's how the High Court has stated that the GST operates.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> The situation you describe can only happen with an overseas supplier of intangibles, and it has only been possible since the 1st o f July 2017 (when the Netflix Tax amendments became operational), and only happens where the purchaser actively gives their ABN and GST registration details to the supplier. In effect, you are given an immediate GST credit when you give your ABN and GST details, rather than having to wait until your next BAS. As already demonstrated, besides a small difference is short term cash flow (eg. I receive a 2.5% lower initial payout), there is no net difference between giving and not giving your ABN and GST details. People like to rant and rave that they're being short changed somehow if no GST is payable on Uber's fees, when in reality there is no difference to their bottom line either way.
> 
> What does the word "payable" mean? This is what the crux of a lot of peoples misunderstanding of the GST revolves around. When you make a taxable supply, GST becomes _payable_ by you_. _If something is _payable_ that means it hasn't been _paid_ yet_._ GST is only paid when you the supplier meet your GST obligation with the ATO. GST isn't collected and passed on in the way it's often explained, it's levied on the supplier and it's expected that the supplier would generally pass this cost on in the form of higher prices. This is how indirect taxes are designed to work. It is how the law is framed, and it's how the High Court has stated that the GST operates.


Yep, no difference at present but once again that is not what is the topic. 
The aim is to have the normal Uber fee as GST inclusive and not have them add the gst to the fee as they do for you.

No comment on perhaps Uber's requirement to withhold the 49% as you have not provided them with an abn?


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Yep, no difference at present but once again that is not what is the topic.
> The aim is to have the normal Uber fee as GST inclusive and not have them add the gst to the fee as they do for you.


I receive 78% of what the rider pays, and I pay 78% of the net GST payable. For that to be different for someone else requires that they actively take steps to achieve that outcome. And I've got to say that I have zero sympathy for anyone who complains about a situation that they've actively chosen to put themselves into. In practice you get an immediate GST credit rather than having to wait until BAS time to get it. It's pretty much a matter of timing, and nothing else.



Paul Collins said:


> No comment on perhaps Uber's requirement to withhold the 49% as you have not provided them with an abn?


You are the purchaser, they are the supplier. So if there were to be any withholding it would be us withholding from Uber.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul,you seems to be so much out of your depth as the Australian Taxation Law is concern,maybe is a time to ask Mr. John Galt to reward this thread with "Andie".


----------



## UberDriverAU

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> Paul,you are seems to so much be out of your depth as the Australian Taxation Law is concern,maybe is a time to ask Mr. John Galt to reward this thread with "Andie".


He has already, I made the request back on the first page.


----------



## Jack Malarkey

Jack Malarkey said:


> fields, I don't believe Senator Leyonhjelm has yet introduced a private member's bill on this matter but he has sought a costing from the Parliamentary Business Office: http://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/05 About Parliament/54 Parliamentary Depts/548 Parliamentary Budget Office/Publicly released costings/Taxation of Uber and taxis DOC.docx?la=en.


fields, I have now written to Senator Leyonhjelm asking him about the private member's bill. I'll let you know about any reply I receive.

I have received the following acknowledgment:

Hi Jack--

Thank you for your feedback.

I'll have a read and get back to you if necessary.

Regards,

*Senator David Leyonhjelm*
Leader of the Liberal Democrats
http://www.davidleyonhjelm.com.au/


----------



## UberDriverAU

Jack Malarkey said:


> fields, I have now written to Senator Leyonhjelm asking him about the private member's bill. I'll let you know about any reply I receive.
> 
> I have received the following acknowledgment:
> 
> Hi Jack--
> 
> Thank you for your feedback.
> 
> I'll have a read and get back to you if necessary.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> *Senator David Leyonhjelm*
> Leader of the Liberal Democrats
> http://www.davidleyonhjelm.com.au/


Hey Jack, I know you don't think there should be a threshold, but if we are going to have one, do you think it makes sense to index it?


----------



## Jack Malarkey

UberDriverAU said:


> Hey Jack, I know you don't think there should be a threshold, but if we are going to have one, do you think it makes sense to index it?


Definitely, UberDriverAU. 

I think the approach in the United Kingdom has much to commend it.


----------



## WhiteCro

71 people who have signed the petition seem to understand how uber is not paying GST in their income...only uberDriverAU and a couple other uber trolls on here will have you believe otherwise... Lets stop this fraud - sign today

https://www.change.org/p/uber-uber-to-pay-their-portion-of-gst-not-the-driver


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## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> 71 people who have signed the petition seem to understand how uber is not paying GST in their income...only uberDriverAU and a couple other uber trolls on here will have you believe otherwise... Lets stop this fraud - sign today
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/uber-uber-to-pay-their-portion-of-gst-not-the-driver


Correct. The Uber fee for drivers who do quote their abn is exclusive of gst and it should be inclusive of gst.
I am glad you posted your link here or I would not have seen it or be able to promote it in the social media groups I run. Drivers there were happy to support you. Here, it just seems like a lot of unhappy campers who talk and do nothing at all.

I would be happy for Uber to increase the per kmrate by 10% and then include gst in their fees. That would mean a double win for drivers and also a step towards the $1.50 per in for QLD that I promote.


----------



## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> 71 people who have signed the petition seem to understand how uber is not paying GST in their income...only uberDriverAU and a couple other uber trolls on here will have you believe otherwise... Lets stop this fraud - sign today
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/uber-uber-to-pay-their-portion-of-gst-not-the-driver


I dare say most of them misunderstand GST just as much as you do.


Paul Collins said:


> Correct. The Uber fee for drivers who do quote their abn is exclusive of gst and it should be inclusive of gst.


Let me walk you through what you're asking for:

(1) Uber's service fee is now 22% or 27.5% inclusive of GST.
(2) You provide your ABN and GST details to Uber to signal that you are a business that is entitled to GST credits.
(3) In accordance with the Netflix Tax amendments, Uber effectively gives you an immediate GST credit which reduces the amount you pay to 20% or 25%.
(4) Effectively, you want to claim a second GST credit, even though you've already been given one.

Why should you be allowed two GST credits for the same purchase? Those who haven't provided an ABN and GST details must pay exactly 10% more than those who have, otherwise one set of drivers will be disadvantaged relative to the other.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> I dare say most of them misunderstand GST just as much as you do.
> 
> Let me walk you through what you're asking for:
> 
> (1) Uber's service fee is now 22% or 27.5% inclusive of GST.
> (2) You provide your ABN and GST details to Uber to signal that you are a business that is entitled to GST credits.
> (3) In accordance with the Netflix Tax amendments, Uber effectively gives you an immediate GST credit which reduces the amount you pay to 20% or 25%.
> (4) Effectively, you want to claim a second GST credit, even though you've already been given one.
> 
> Why should you be allowed two GST credits for the same purchase? Those who haven't provided an ABN and GST details must pay exactly 10% more than those who have, otherwise one set of drivers will be disadvantaged relative to the other.


Nope, you are getting it wrong once again and just confusing the request.

Forget about those drivers who have not quoted an abn. Totally irrelevant to this topic.

The normal Uber fee is now gst exclusive for drivers who correctly quote their abn to Uber.

Uber should make this fee inclusive of gst so Drivers do not have to pay in effect 100% of the gst.

No need to keep bringing up your case as it is not the norm and means nothing to the overall request.

If Uber were to include gst in their fees ( not add it to the top) then it would not matter if a driver did or did not quote their abn.

Cue those who just want to abuse you for spelling, math or even just having a go.


----------



## Hugh G

WhiteCro said:


> 71 people who have signed the petition seem to understand how uber is not paying GST in their income...only uberDriverAU and a couple other uber trolls on here will have you believe otherwise... Lets stop this fraud - sign today
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/uber-uber-to-pay-their-portion-of-gst-not-the-driver


Why would I, or anybody, sign a petition where the math calculations you give in the example are incorrect !

*"The trip ride cost the passenger $20. *

* The driver receives $15 and Uber receives $5. *

* The driver pays the GST for both the amount he/she receives AND the commission paid to Uber. *

* The driver pays $2 GST in the above example, this represents 13.33%. "*

The GST liability on a $20 Fare paid by the passenger is 1/11 IE $1.81​
I choose not to participate - as do about 1,850 others who have viewed this thread and not signed up.

We all eagerly await Uber's response to this petition after you have presented it.


----------



## WhiteCro

Definitely needs to be changed to 1/11th but imagine what the math is on Uber making the driver pay GST on Ubers income of the fare - now thats a number Im guessing your struggling to work out


----------



## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> Definitely needs to be changed to 1/11th but imagine what the math is on Uber making the driver pay GST on Ubers income of the fare - now thats a number Im guessing your struggling to work out


It is 1/11 now. $55 fare and the gst is $5, not $5.50
Your math is a little out but I understand quite well what your intention is. To have the Uber fee as gst inclusive. Now for the $55 fare, the Uber fee is $11 exclusive of gst and it should be $10 plus $1 gst. This would mean the driver would remit only $10, not $11.

So for example over a one year period on $55,000 of fares that would save the drivers $1000.

Pay no attention to UberDriverAU as he has not quoted his abn to Uber so Uber are adding 10% to his Uber fees for the gst, so his fee would be $12.10 with the added 10%, so he gets a $1.10 gst credit from the $11 gst on the fare. $9.90 he has to pay the ato and the extra $1.10 to Uber, $11

Or Uber should be taking there fee from the total fare excluding gst, making their fee 20% of $50, $10, not $11. This would be a better outcome as then uber would not have to pay the get of $1.

*(20% fee example)
The trip ride cost the passenger $20 with $1.81 as GST included.*
*The driver receives $15 and Uber receives $5 as a 20% fee.
The driver gets net, after paying the full GST, $13.99 or 69.9% of the total fare inc gst. Most drivers think they are getting 80% and they are clearly not.*


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Nope, you are getting it wrong once again and just confusing the request.
> 
> Forget about those drivers who have not quoted an abn. Totally irrelevant to this topic.


Wrong. The petition makes no mention of providing ABNs or not.


Paul Collins said:


> Uber should make this fee inclusive of gst so Drivers do not have to pay in effect 100% of the gst.


Simple. Don't provide your ABN and GST details if you want a GST credit.


Paul Collins said:


> Uber should make this fee inclusive of gst so Drivers do not have to pay in effect 100% of the gst.
> 
> No need to keep bringing up your case as it is not the norm and means nothing to the overall request.


How would you know what the "normal" case is? What percentage of drivers have provided their ABN and GST details? The normal case for all digital services (for both domestic and international suppliers) is that prices are GST inclusive. The special case is providing your details to in effect get an immediate GST credit.

For some reason you seem to think it's ok for one lot of drivers to pay 20% or 25% excluding GST, and you think the other lot of drivers should pay 18.18% or 22.73 excluding GST. That's some wonderful driver advocacy right there.

The facts are, if you provide your ABN and GST details you don't get GST credits. You can complain and complain about it all you like, but you are not going to get GST credits because you've *chosen* to forgo them. That's simply how it works, whether you like it or not, and whether you understand it or not (which clearly you don't).



WhiteCro said:


> Definitely needs to be changed to 1/11th but imagine what the math is on Uber making the driver pay GST on Ubers income of the fare - now thats a number Im guessing your struggling to work out


Uber makes the same whether or not they pay GST. There's literally no difference to Uber or drivers' bottom line. That's why this petition is pointless.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

UberDriverAU said:


> Wrong. The petition makes no mention of providing ABNs or not.
> 
> Simple. Don't provide your ABN and GST details if you want a GST credit.
> 
> How would you know what the "normal" case is? What percentage of drivers have provided their ABN and GST details? The normal case for all digital services (for both domestic and international suppliers) is that prices are GST inclusive. The special case is providing your details to in effect get an immediate GST credit.
> 
> For some reason you seem to think it's ok for one lot of drivers to pay 20% or 25% excluding GST, and you think the other lot of drivers should pay 18.18% or 22.73 excluding GST. That's some wonderful driver advocacy right there.
> 
> The facts are, if you provide your ABN and GST details you don't get GST credits. You can complain and complain about it all you like, but you are not going to get GST credits because you've *chosen* to forgo them. That's simply how it works, whether you like it or not, and whether you understand it or not (which clearly you don't).
> 
> Uber makes the same whether or not they pay GST. There's literally no difference to Uber or drivers' bottom line. That's why this petition is pointless.


There is no reason for you to waste your time,it is pointless.



Paul Collins said:


> Ah, Uber does not charge GST. GST is paid on the total fare by the rider and we remit it to the ATO less any GST credits. If the Uber fee was GST inclusive then a GST credit would be available to all drivers who provide their ABN to Uber.
> If you do not provide your ABN to Uber then Uber add 10% to their fees as GST, which the driver can use as a GST credit.
> Uber should in theory be withholding 49% of the fare from these drivers for not quoting their ABN to pay the ATO as income tax for that driver, but they are not, yet....


Mr. Collins,did you take any actions on the ATO trying to force you to change the way you comply to Australian Tax Law as you have posted by yourself on this forum???That is a very serious matter as some drivers might try to emulate it and the consequences might be severe????


----------



## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> Uber makes the same whether or not they pay GST


Not true.

Uber would be out of pocket millions and drivers would be better off if Uber paid GST on the 25% they withhold from every driver

ST DYMPHNA Re: your pointless comments re ABN - its compulsory from August 2015 to be registered for GST as an uber driver. So your comments were pointless!


----------



## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> Not true.
> 
> Uber would be out of pocket millions and drivers would be better off if Uber paid GST on the 25% they withhold from every driver
> 
> ST DYMPHNA Re: your pointless comments re ABN - its compulsory from August 2015 to be registered for GST as an uber driver. So your comments were pointless!


Dear me.... seems members here just want to argue for the sake of it, no matter how clear you make it. Ok, for the final time, simple as this.....

1. THE UBER FEE SHOULD BE GST INCLUSIVE AS 20 or 25% AND DRIVERS SHOULD GET A GST CREDIT FROM THAT FEE.

Or

2. UBER SHOULD CALCULATE THEIR FEE ON THE TOTAL FARE, EXCLUSIVE OF GST.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> Dear me.... seems members here just want to argue for the sake of it, no matter how clear you make it. Ok, for the final time, simple as this.....
> 
> 1. THE UBER FEE SHOULD BE GST INCLUSIVE AS 20 or 25% AND DRIVERS SHOULD GET A GST CREDIT FROM THAT FEE.
> 
> Or
> 
> 2. UBER SHOULD CALCULATE THEIR FEE ON THE TOTAL FARE, EXCLUSIVE OF GST.


THOSE TWO POINTS YOU MADE ARE EXACT SHOW OF WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT AUSTRALIAN TAX LAW AND WHAT YOU THINK WHAT SHOULD BE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CURRENT AUSTRALIAN TAX LAW


----------



## WhiteCro

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> THOSE TWO POINTS YOU MADE ARE EXACT SHOW OF WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT AUSTRALIAN TAX LAW AND WHAT YOU THINK WHAT SHOULD BE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CURRENT AUSTRALIAN TAX LAW


You keep banging that drum that no body listens too!


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

WhiteCro said:


> You keep banging that drum that no body listens too!


you do


----------



## WhiteCro

72 people agree that Uber drivers deserve not to be ripped off by foreign companies!!! 

No fair go from Uber!


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

WhiteCro said:


> 72 people agree that Uber drivers deserve not to be ripped off by foreign companies!!!
> 
> No fair go from Uber!


regardless of those 72 people,uber comply to Australian Tax Law,very unethical but legal .
I'll be blown,72 people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I assume you are one or maybe two of them


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## WhiteCro

smoking complied with laws too until it was proven bad for your health


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

WhiteCro said:


> smoking complied with laws too until it was proven bad for your health


what are you trying to say???to not to comply to the Law???because some guy who rang a Radio Station and was talking for 30 second has become an instant expert on the Tax Law?????,I rather listen to a Tax Agent than "mumblings" of of people who have no idea what the Law is.
At least UberDriverAU confirms most of what my accountant was telling me


----------



## WhiteCro

Uber hasn't been challenged yet in Australia. They have just done what they have wanted.

Its already happened in America that Uber didn't comply with laws and paid out millions of dollars to drivers


ST DYMPHNA son said:


> At least UberDriverAU confirms most of what my accountant was telling me


You work from the same desk. Do you have your own computer or does Uber make you share it!


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

WhiteCro said:


> Uber hasn't been challenged yet in Australia. They have just done what they have wanted.
> 
> Its already happened in America that Uber didn't comply with laws and paid out millions of dollars to drivers
> 
> You work from the same desk. Do you have your own computer or does Uber make you share it!


how could one respond to such a mental giant ????


----------



## Paul Collins

I stated on the radio that drivers pay GST on the full fare. That is correct. 
Getting Uber to charge its fee on the total fare excluding gst has nothing to do with the law at all.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> I stated on the radio that drivers pay GST on the full fare. That is correct.
> Getting Uber to charge its fee on the total fare excluding gst has nothing to do with the law at all.


...so what it is having to do with?????????????????
...and yes indeed,your performance and contribution on the National Radio was stunning,all 30 seconds of it!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## WhiteCro

*Uber to Repay Millions to Drivers, Who Could Be Owed Far More*

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/23/business/economy/uber-drivers-tax.html

Only mental ones are the ones who continue to argue for Uber on a website called uberpeople - BRING BACK THE RIGHTS TO THE AVERAGE WORKER


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

WhiteCro said:


> *Uber to Repay Millions to Drivers, Who Could Be Owed Far More*
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/23/business/economy/uber-drivers-tax.html
> 
> Only mental ones are the ones who continue to argue for Uber on a website called uberpeople - BRING BACK THE RIGHTS TO THE AVERAGE WORKER


Show something about Australia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> *Uber to Repay Millions to Drivers, Who Could Be Owed Far More*
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/23/business/economy/uber-drivers-tax.html
> 
> Only mental ones are the ones who continue to argue for Uber on a website called uberpeople - BRING BACK THE RIGHTS TO THE AVERAGE WORKER


Different country, different laws, different contract, not relevant.



WhiteCro said:


> Not true.
> 
> Uber would be out of pocket millions and drivers would be better off if Uber paid GST on the 25% they withhold from every driver


If you can't do simple maths, that really doesn't help your argument:










WhiteCro said:


> ST DYMPHNA Re: your pointless comments re ABN - its compulsory from August 2015 to be registered for GST as an uber driver. So your comments were pointless!


It seems you are missing the point. If you don't provide Uber with your ABN and GST details then you would have that which you say you crave: Uber paying their share of the GST. Seriously, how hard is it to understand that you took an action that resulted in you not getting what you wanted? And who's fault is that? Not mine, not Uber's, but yours.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

UberDriverAU said:


> Different country, different laws, different contract, not relevant.
> 
> If you can't do simple maths, that really doesn't help your argument:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems you are missing the point. If you don't provide Uber with your ABN and GST details then you would have that which you say you crave: Uber paying their share of the GST. Seriously, how hard is it to understand that you took an action that resulted in you not getting what you wanted? And who's fault is that? Not mine, not Uber's, but yours.


...as I wrote it is pointless for you to waste your time,you are too good for it,there is one id..t who have no idea how wrong he is and ATO is forcing him to comply to the Law and he has followers who follow him blindly believing that he is right as he is trying to prove that everyone else is wrong...
...and he posted him self that ATO is forcing him to change


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> If you can't do simple maths, that really doesn't help your argument:


The request is not to add GST to the top of the service fee as it is for drivers who do not quote their ABN, but inclusive and for it to be the same for those who quote and those who do not, or for uber to charge their fee on the total ex gst. If drivers do not provide their ban, then as you have it now with a $39 net.

(20% example)

Proposed for über to make fee inclusive of GST
$55 fare
$5 GST
Uber fee as $10 plus $1 GST ( not as for you $11 plus 10% as $12.10)
Net driver $44 and a net of $4 GST to pay, not $5 as it is now.

Proposed for über to charge fee on total ex GST
$55 fare
$5 GST
Uber fee as $10 as 20% of $50
Net driver $45 and a net of $5 GST

$40 is better than the $39 shown in your image above, right?

No need to mention your circumstance again and again, as it is irrelevant to what the driver proposed changes could be.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

...the most irrelevant is a statement of "proposed charges could be"as uber would not be aware or would take "on board" any proposes like that unless it was coming from own board of directors


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> The request is not to add GST to the top of the service fee as it is for drivers who do not quote their ABN, but inclusive and for it to be the same for those who quote and those who do not.
> 
> (20% example)
> 
> Proposed for über to make fee inclusive of GST
> $55 fare
> $5 GST
> Uber fee as $10 plus $1 GST ( not as for you $11 plus 10% as $12.10)
> Net driver $44 and a net of $4 GST to pay, not $5 as it is now.
> 
> Proposed for über to charge fee on total ex GST
> $55 fare
> $5 GST
> Uber fee as $10 as 20% of $50
> Net driver $45 and a net of $5 GST
> 
> No need to mention your circumstance again and again, as it is irrelevant to what the proposed charges could be.


You continue to argue for things that the petition says nothing about. According to the petition, "THE PROBLEM" is "Uber corporation does not pay any GST on trips incurred. Rather, the entire GST bill for the trip is paid by the driver despite only receiving 75% of the fare". "THE PROBLEM" has nothing to do with Uber's level of commission.

We've already established that:
(a) under current arrangements the driver is 100% liable for any GST incurred, and
(b) if you don't provide your ABN and GST details, the percentage of the net GST that Uber must pay is equal to the percentage of the fare that they take (ie. "they pay their share"), and
(c) drivers must make a conscious choice to supply their details before this changes, and
(d) most importantly, there is literally no difference to either Uber or the driver's bottom line either way.

So clearly "THE PROBLEM" is a result of the driver's actions.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> You continue to argue for things that the petition says nothing about. According to the petition, "THE PROBLEM" is "Uber corporation does not pay any GST on trips incurred. Rather, the entire GST bill for the trip is paid by the driver despite only receiving 75% of the fare". "THE PROBLEM" has nothing to do with Uber's level of commission.
> 
> We've already established that:
> (a) under current arrangements the driver is 100% liable for any GST incurred, and
> (b) if you don't provide your ABN and GST details, the percentage of the net GST that Uber must pay is equal to the percentage of the fare that they take (ie. "they pay their share"), and
> (c) drivers must make a conscious choice to supply their details before this changes, and
> (d) most importantly, there is literally no difference to either Uber or the driver's bottom line either way.
> 
> So clearly "THE PROBLEM" is a result of the driver's actions.


And so it is driver proposed changes (by a petition, direct representation, or whatever means possible), not to maintain the way it is now.


----------



## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> Different country, different laws, different contract, not relevant.
> 
> Same company philosophy, rip of drivers until you are forced to pay back the correct amount - Millions of $$$$$$ Uber is stealing from drivers.
> 
> If you can't do simple maths, that really doesn't help your argument:
> 
> It seems you are missing the point. If you don't provide Uber with your ABN and GST details then you would have that which you say you crave: Uber paying their share of the GST. Seriously, how hard is it to understand that you took an action that resulted in you not getting what you wanted? And who's fault is that? Not mine, not Uber's, but yours.


Seems you dont understand laws and maths - Are you advising drivers to break the law???

See the ATO website for more info: https://www.ato.gov.au/general/ride-sourcing-and-tax/

It all comes down to drivers paying GST on a full fare but only receiving 75% of the fare. They should be only paying GST on what they receive.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> And so it is driver proposed changes (by a petition, direct representation, or whatever means possible), not to maintain the way it is now.


Nothing needs to change, because the solution to "THE PROBLEM" is 100% within the driver's control. If you have a problem that is different to "THE PROBLEM", why don't you start your own petition rather than try to hijack this one and turn it into something it's not?


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> And so it is driver proposed changes (by a petition, direct representation, or whatever means possible), not to maintain the way it is now.


...I can see a few options
San Francisco or Amsterdam or perhaps the Greenhubs around Australia?????or perhaps pleading from a National Broadcaster microphones or ringing uber directly????????


----------



## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> Seems you dont understand laws and maths - Are you advising drivers to break the law???
> 
> See the ATO website for more info: https://www.ato.gov.au/general/ride-sourcing-and-tax/
> 
> It all comes down to drivers paying GST on a full fare but only receiving 75% of the fare. They should be only paying GST on what they receive.


Again, it seems that you cannot understand simple maths:








Do you need me to walk you through what this means?


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Nothing needs to change, because the solution to "THE PROBLEM" is 100% within the driver's control. If you have a problem that is different to "THE PROBLEM", why don't you start your own petition rather than try to hijack this one and turn it into something it's not?


It is not about the current situation, it is driver proposed changes and if you do not get that them you think $39 is $40 and that is 'YOUR PROBLEM'.

Actually if a driver does not quote their abn then Uber should keep the 10% on top as it is presently and those drivers can continue to get the $39 as a penality for not providing their abn, as required by law I suspect.

You can be pedantic and pick apart every little thing you like with the petition as you endeavour to 'prove' you are correct. I ham happy to support any driver proposed changes that result in higher income for drivers. You however want to get stuck in semantics.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

UberDriverAU said:


> Again, it seems that you cannot understand simple maths:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you need me to walk you through what this means?


...people should be grateful to you for sharing your knowledge but in different form perhaps ...


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> It is not about the current situation, is is driver proposed changes and if you do not get that them you think $39 is $40 and that is your problem.
> 
> Actually if a driver does not quote their abn then Uber should keep the 10% on top as it is presently and those drivers can continue to get the $39 as a penality for not providing their abn, as required by law I suspect.


Paul, you continue to misunderstand "THE PROBLEM". The driver keeps $39 either way, Uber keeps $11 either way, and the ATO receives $5 either way. "THE PROBLEM" is completely about who is paying what share of GST. This is 100% within the control of the driver, not Uber, and not the ATO. If you have a different problem, then please start your own petition and stop trying to hijack this one for your own purposes. "THE PROBLEM" is clearly stated, and it's not what you're saying it is.



ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...people should be grateful to you for sharing your knowledge but in different form perhaps ...


I'm thinking of running a course in logic and critical thinking, I could make a killing on these forums I reckon!


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Paul, you continue to misunderstand "THE PROBLEM". The driver keeps $39 either way, Uber keeps $11 either way, and the ATO receives $5 either way. "THE PROBLEM" is completely about who is paying what share of GST. This is 100% within the control of the driver, not Uber, and not the ATO. If you have a different problem, then please start your own petition and stop trying to hijack this one for your own purposes. "THE PROBLEM" is clearly stated, and it's not what you're saying it is.


I think you are the one who does not understand the petition. It is asking for the normal 20 or 25% Uber fee to be inclusive of GST, not 10% added as in your case.

So you think $39 is $40. Got it.

Please do not quote trolls as it then shows me the dribble.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> I think you are the one who does not understand the petition. It is asking for the normal 20 or 25% Uber fee to be inclusive of GST.
> 
> So you think $39 is $40. Got it.


Where does it say that Paul, where?!


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Where does it say that Paul, where?!
> View attachment 173938


Not written well but it is clear what the intent is and I certainly singly do not want to bag the writer for his petition.

'Uber to pay their fare share of the GST tax'

I assume that is for the normal Uber fee to be gst inclusive.

So is $39, $40 or not?

Uber international is clearly registered to pay GST now as they do in your case.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> I think you are the one who does not understand the petition. It is asking for the normal 20 or 25% Uber fee to be inclusive of GST, not 10% added as in your case.
> 
> So you think $39 is $40. Got it.


Uber as a Global Company is very pragmatic about how they are running their business and uber does not have to register for GST as it is not an Australian Company as it allows uber to minimize it taxes and if this is not clear then I'm sorry but there is no way to explain that any petition will never succeed


----------



## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> Where does it say that Paul, where?!
> View attachment 173938


Under the Solution heading "Uber to pay their fair share of GST"


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Not written well but it is clear what the intent is and I certainly singly do not want to bag the writer for his petition.
> 
> 'Uber to pay their fare share of the GST tax'
> 
> I assume that is for the normal Uber fee to be gst inclusive.
> 
> So is $39, $40 or not?
> 
> Uber international is clearly registered to pay GST now as they do in your case.


Paul, if Uber takes 22% of the fare, and pays 22% of the net GST, that is Uber paying their fair share of the GST is it not? The petition makes no mention of commission levels, so stop trying to impute that it does.


----------



## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> Under the Solution heading "Uber to pay their fair share of GST"


I think I got that. Do not worry about the anonymous trolls here as they are irrelevant. As I said, it appears no members here actually signed your petition but many did from my social media groups.

UberDriverAU wants to argue that things should not change and it would appear he is happy with the income of drivers in general. I for one, am happy to support any driver wanting a change that means higher driver earnings.


----------



## WhiteCro

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> Uber as a Global Company is very pragmatic about how they are running their business and uber does not have to register for GST as it is not an Australian Company as it allows uber to minimize it taxes and if this is not clear then I'm sorry but there is no way to explain that any petition will never succeed


Why you so negative? Do you think drivers in America got back millions of dollars from Uber because they were so negative like you???

If your not interested in supporting drivers rights than leave the thread



Paul Collins said:


> I think I got that. Do not worry about the anonymous trolls here as they are irrelevant. As I said, it appears no members here actually signed your petition but many did from my social media groups.


Its not my petition but I definitely support anyone who wants to stop the ATO/UBER extortion of drivers


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

WhiteCro said:


> Under the Solution heading "Uber to pay their fair share of GST"


if this thread stay live for longer,it will be very similar to the story of "The Man Of La Mancha"


----------



## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> Why you so negative? Do you think drivers in America got back millions of dollars from Uber because they were so negative like you???
> 
> If your not interested in supporting drivers rights than leave the thread
> 
> Its not my petition but I definitely support anyone who wants to stop the ATO/UBER extortion of drivers


I will bring the petition and possible solutions to the attention of Uber management as I am not anonymous to Uber and I do have managment contact regularly.


----------



## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> Under the Solution heading "Uber to pay their fair share of GST"


Let me spell it out for you seeing as it seems you're having trouble.








Notice how it's 78% for the driver, and 22% for Uber? Uber is paying their fare share of the GST, unless you chose otherwise.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Let me spell it out for you seeing as it seems you're having trouble.
> View attachment 173942
> 
> Notice how it's 78% for the driver, and 22% for Uber? Uber is paying their fare share of the GST, unless you chose otherwise.


So you think $39 is $40. Aleady got that.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> I will bring the petition and possible solutions to the attention of Uber management as I am not anonymous to Uber and I do have managment contact regularly.


If you want to look like a fool to Uber management Paul, go right ahead.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

UberDriverAU said:


> If you want to look like a fool to Uber management Paul, go right ahead.


...only Dulcinea is missing ...GO FOR IT PAUL,GO,GO,GO


----------



## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> If you want to look like a fool to Uber management Paul, go right ahead.


The only one who looks like a fool is the one who doesnt accept that the driver pays GST for the full fare but only receives 75% of the fare


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> If you want to look like a fool to Uber management Paul, go right ahead.


Lol. At least I have regular contact with Uber management.
I certainly will present the option that Uber fees should be on the total fare excluding GST as that is actually 20 or 25% and on total fares inc gst for those that break the law and do not submit their abn. They should be penalised as they 'may' be evading paying gst in general. Tax evasion is crime.
QED.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Lol. At least I have regular contact with Uber management.


And what have you achieved with your regular contact? Have drivers even seen a 2 cent per km rate rise on your watch? Yes, yes, we understand you have a stated goal of $1.50/km, but what have you actually achieved for drivers' bottom line?


Paul Collins said:


> I certainly will present the option that Uber fees should be on the total fare excluding GST and on total fares inc gst for those that break the law and do not submit their abn. They should be penalised.


What planet are you from where not supplying your ABN is illegal? Lol. Don't be surprised if Uber management laughs you out of their office.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> And what have you achieved with your regular contact? Have drivers even seen a 2 cent per km rate rise on your watch? Yes, yes, we understand you have a stated goal of $1.50/km, but what have you actually achieved for drivers' bottom line?
> 
> What planet are you from where not supplying your ABN is illegal? Lol. Don't be surprised if Uber management laughs you out of their office.


Do not supply your abn and you 'may' be tax evading. Fair enough assumption. Tax evasion is a crime.


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> Lol. At least I have regular contact with Uber management.
> I certainly will present the option that Uber fees should be on the total fare excluding GST as that is actually 20 or 25% and on total fares inc gst for those that break the law and do not submit their abn. They should be penalised as they 'may' be evading paying gst in general. Tax evasion is crime.
> QED.


that is assuming that you really have direct contact with uber


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Do not supply your abn and you 'may' be tax evading. Fair enough assumption. Tax evasion is a crime.


So every business purchase in Australia "may" be tax evading because the purchaser doesn't supply their ABN? That's a fair assumption? Seeing as the ATO already gets the details of every single trip taken in Australia along with driver ID details, do you think Uber's going to give a rat's arse? Tax evasion isn't their problem to deal with, it's the ATO's problem to deal with.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> So every business purchase in Australia "may" be tax evading because the purchaser doesn't supply their ABN? That's a fair assumption? Seeing as the ATO already gets the details of every single trip taken in Australia along with driver ID details, do you think Uber's going to give a rat's arse? Tax evasion isn't their problem to deal with, it's the ATO's problem to deal with.


I think you will find that tax evasion is very much an Uber problem as it is clear to the ATO that many drivers are doing exactly that. I am sure Uber would be happy to work with the ATO to find those evading tax, as they already do.


----------



## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> I think you will find that tax evasion is very much an Uber problem as it is clear to the ATO that many drivers are doing exactly that. I am sure Uber would be happy to work with the ATO to find those evading tax, as they already do.


Ahh, no, it is not Uber's problem. They suffer no consequences if drivers attempt to evade taxes. Uber only gives the ATO details because they are legally compelled to. They do not willingly give any details.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Ahh, no, it is not Uber's problem. They suffer no consequences if drivers attempt to evade taxes. Uber only gives the ATO details because they are legally compelled to. They do not willingly give any details.


Correct and I am sure Uber wants to clear up those drivers who are evading tax purely from a PR point of view.
It is detrimental to Uber for a perception that 'some' Uber Drivers are evading tax.


----------



## WhiteCro

The issue is about Uber not paying tax, GST in particular. They provide a service Uber app and dont pay GST.

We want Uber to pay GST on what they take away from drivers.


----------



## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> The issue is about Uber not paying tax, GST in particular. They provide a service Uber app and dont pay GST.
> 
> We want Uber to pay GST on what they take away from drivers.


Seriously, is it really that hard to comprehend that Uber does pay GST on their fees unless you give them your ABN and GST details? All you're doing is making yourself look foolish with this nonsense.



Paul Collins said:


> Correct and I am sure Uber wants to clear up those drivers who are evading tax purely from a PR point of view.
> It is detrimental to Uber for a perception that 'some' Uber Drivers are evading tax.


I don't think so. Sexual assault by drivers certainly is detrimental, tax evasion is not.


----------



## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> Seriously, is it really that hard to comprehend that Uber does pay GST on their fees unless you give them your ABN and GST details? All you're doing is making yourself look foolish with this nonsense.


If that was the case than why do drivers pay GST on the full fare?! Its not the case and you know it.


----------



## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Seriously, is it really that hard to comprehend that Uber does pay GST on their fees unless you give them your ABN and GST details? All you're doing is making yourself look foolish with this nonsense.
> 
> I don't think so. Sexual assault by drivers certainly is detrimental, tax evasion is not.


And this is positive press for Uber?

http://www.news.com.au/finance/mone...t/news-story/bbac4541a69f90de64ca94523890258e

And I am sure Uber are happy when they see articles like this.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act...ser-look-at-uber-drivers-20160422-godcsw.html


----------



## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> If that was the case than why do drivers pay GST on the full fare?! Its not the case and you know it.


If I take a $55 trip I don't pay $5.00 to the ATO, I pay $3.90 less other GST credits. $3.90 is 78% of $5.00. You are so stuck in your line of thinking (or you're simply being a troll) that it's a complete waste of time trying to explain the reality of the situation to you.



Paul Collins said:


> And this is positive press for Uber?
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/finance/mone...t/news-story/bbac4541a69f90de64ca94523890258e
> 
> And I am sure Uber are happy when they see articles like this.
> 
> http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act...ser-look-at-uber-drivers-20160422-godcsw.html


"Tax office takes closer look at Uber drivers". If they thought it was bad for PR they would have voluntarily given the ATO the details they needed to stamp out tax evasion, and they would have made lots of media releases about how they're being such a good corporate citizen. But alas, that never happened.


----------



## WhiteCro

There will be a newer one coming soon: Uber to pay Australian drivers back millions 



UberDriverAU said:


> If I take a $55 trip I don't pay $5.00 to the ATO, I pay $3.90 less other GST credits. $3.90 is 78% of $5.00. You are so stuck in your line of thinking (or you're simply being a troll) that it's a complete waste of time trying to explain the reality of the situation to you.


your still avoiding that uber drivers pay GST on the full fare.

If they receive $40,000 driving for uber in a year (full fare $50,000) they will have to pay GST on the 50k not the 40k they took home

This is what every Uber driver is required to do by the ATO

https://www.ato.gov.au/general/ride-sourcing-and-tax/

What the petition is saying, drivers should only have to pay GST on what they received, in this case $40K

Any other comments are not related to this thread


----------



## ST DYMPHNA son

UberDriverAU said:


> If I take a $55 trip I don't pay $5.00 to the ATO, I pay $3.90 less other GST credits. $3.90 is 78% of $5.00. You are so stuck in your line of thinking (or you're simply being a troll) that it's a complete waste of time trying to explain the reality of the situation to you.
> 
> "Tax office takes closer look at Uber drivers". If they thought it was bad for PR they would have voluntarily given the ATO the details they needed to stamp out tax evasion, and they would have made lots of media releases about how they're being such a good corporate citizen. But alas, that never happened.


Mate,just don't bother, it is a waste of your time,many people still do not comprehend gst concept and how it work.
Let it go,have laugh at the idea of the petition to uber which might be fun to watch unraveling. 
And let me say again:
the more one is sure,the bigger consequences if one is wrong


----------



## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> There will be a newer one coming soon: Uber to pay Australian drivers back millions
> 
> your still avoiding that uber drivers pay GST on the full fare.
> 
> If they receive $40,000 driving for uber in a year (full fare $50,000) they will have to pay GST on the 50k not the 40k they took home
> 
> This is what every Uber driver is required to do by the ATO
> 
> https://www.ato.gov.au/general/ride-sourcing-and-tax/
> 
> What the petition is saying, drivers should only have to pay GST on what they received, in this case $40K
> 
> Any other comments are not related to this thread


Have you ever submitted a BAS without claiming GST credits? The amount you pay to the ATO is never 1/11th of fares unless you're an idiot.


ST DYMPHNA son said:


> Mate,just don't bother, it is a waste of your time,many people still do not comprehend gst concept and how it work.
> Let it go,have laugh at the idea of the petition to uber which might be fun to watch unraveling.
> And let me say again:
> the more one is sure,the bigger consequences if one is wrong


You're right. I won't waste any more of my time on this. Paul is trying to turn the petition into something it is not, rather than simply starting up his own petition that asks for what he wants. Others simply don't want to listen. As I said above, you don't pay 1/11th of your fares to the ATO unless you're an idiot. At least others who are reading this thread will have one rational and logical argument to read.


----------



## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> Have you ever submitted a BAS without claiming GST credits? The amount you pay to the ATO is never 1/11th of fares unless you're an idiot.


I thought I would keep it as simple as possible for people like you who create confusion for others. So you understand that now? Uber drivers are paying for the whole fare?


----------



## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> I thought I would keep it as simple as possible for people like you who create confusion for others. So you understand that now? Uber drivers are paying for the whole fare?


You are oversimplifying and saying something that isn't true. Ignoring expenses, GST credits, and the fact that you have control over whether or not Uber pays GST doesn't make your argument correct.


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## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> You are oversimplifying and saying something that isn't true. Ignoring expenses, GST credits, and the fact that you have control over whether or not Uber pays GST doesn't make your argument correct.


Exactly ignoring the small little GST credits you get back from petrol, insurance etc effectively you are paying GST on the full fare.



UberDriverAU said:


> and the fact that you have control over whether or not Uber pays GST doesn't make your argument correct.


No, you still have to pay GST on full fare!


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## UberDriverAU

WhiteCro said:


> No, you still have to pay GST on full fare!


Placing your hands over your ears and screaming out "la la la I'm not listening!" doesn't make you right!


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## Paul Collins

WhiteCro said:


> Exactly ignoring the small little GST credits you get back from petrol, insurance etc effectively you are paying GST on the full fare.
> 
> No, you still have to pay GST on full fare!


The point is that there is no GST credit on Uber fees unless you do not quote your ABN, so the gross debit GST is based on 1/11 of the total fares.
Uber (Raiser) is GST registered and does remit the GST to the ATO for those drivers not quoting their abn, so there is nothing preventing Uber making their normal fee of 20 or 25% as GST inclusive as Apple, MS and Google do for app devs like myself or like any credit card transaction fee that includes GST.

I do not fully understand why Uber are only paying gst on their fee for those drivers who do not quote their abn. I would have thought it should have been GST on the full fare as well as the possibility of withholding 49% of the drivers share to pay income tax.



UberDriverAU said:


> Have you ever submitted a BAS without claiming GST credits? The amount you pay to the ATO is never 1/11th of fares unless you're an idiot.
> 
> You're right. I won't waste any more of my time on this. Paul is trying to turn the petition into something it is not, rather than simply starting up his own petition that asks for what he wants. Others simply don't want to listen. As I said above, you don't pay 1/11th of your fares to the ATO unless you're an idiot. At least others who are reading this thread will have one rational and logical argument to read.


Noted, so I will start another petition that makes it very clear and also penalises those who do not quote their abn to Uber. Quote sure I will get the support of the two associations, social media and perhaps some press over it.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> The point is that there is no GST credit on Uber fees unless you do not quote your ABN, so the gross debit GST is based on 1/11 of the total fares.


This has been noted many times Paul, and the real point is the driver must choose to provide these details. It's 100% the driver's choice. You can choose 100% of the net GST less other GST credits, or 78%/72.5% of the net GST less other GST credits. The fact remains, the driver is free to choose either, they are not forced into one or the other. When you make your bed, you should lie in it without complaint.


Paul Collins said:


> Uber (Raiser) is GST registered and does remit the GST to the ATO for those drivers not quoting their abn, so there is nothing preventing Uber making their normal fee of 20 or 25% as GST inclusive as Apple, MS and Google do for app devs like myself or like any credit card transaction fee that includes GST.


The fact that you have provided them with your details means no GST is payable. If they were to pay GST when it's not payable, the ATO would be obligated to refund it. And yet again, the percentage is completely irrelevant to the petition at hand, go and start your own petition if you feel so passionately about the issue, rather than trying to hijack an unrelated petition.

Now that really is my last post on this matter. I've said all that I have to say and I'm going to unwatch it.


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## ST DYMPHNA son

...and with this nice last scene let see Don Quixote and Sancho Panza ride into the Sunset...


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## Hugh G

*Here Endeth The Lesson*


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## WhiteCro

For the people who go to the last comment on the last page...summary:

Uber drivers pay GST on full fare but only receive 75%(or 80% for long time drivers) of the fare.

Uber should be paying their share of GST

Drivers who earn $40,000 driving in a year (full fare $50,000) they will have to pay GST on the 50k not the 40k they took home

The petition would like to bring this this to the attention of the Uber and ATO

Drivers should only have to pay GST on what they get from uber

73 people have signed...

Help Uber drivers today!

https://www.change.org/p/uber-to-in...m_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition


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## ST DYMPHNA son

WhiteCro said:


> For the people who go to the last comment on the last page...summary:
> 
> Uber drivers pay GST on full fare but only receive 75%(or 80% for long time drivers) of the fare.
> 
> Uber should be paying their share of GST
> 
> Drivers who earn $40,000 driving in a year (full fare $50,000) they will have to pay GST on the 50k not the 40k they took home
> 
> The petition would like to bring this this to the attention of the Uber and ATO
> 
> Drivers should only have to pay GST on what they get from uber
> 
> 73 people have signed...
> 
> Help Uber drivers today!
> 
> https://www.change.org/p/uber-to-in...m_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition


...so how is The Petition going???..I don't think that there is much interest in it!!!.
Seems like similar to Collins Class Submarines where mistakes were made from the start rendering those boats useless as too much noise would made them a "Bulls eye"target to a enemy and all to avoid it was to put some work to find out what it take to build a good "stuff" before one starts to build it.
As it was mentioned before,Uber is not an Australian Company so petition is not going to do anything,maybe a little bit of "noise" as Uber is not doing anything illegal,unethical yes but not illegal.
Maybe if you start a next petition,use a different angle,perhaps asking for all payments going to the drivers first instead to a banks abroad.This way at least driver could deduct uber cut and all accounting would be simplified....Well guys,you have "brains",think about it,as this petition is probably going nowhere


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## WhiteCro

You think... So many angles to take, which one to choose. Perhaps like this?

http://r i d e s h a r e d r i v e r s u n i t e d.com/uber-ordered-to-treat-drivers-as-workers-with-full-rights-after-losing-appeal/

Uber ordered to treat drivers as workers with full rights after losing appeal


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## ST DYMPHNA son

WhiteCro said:


> You think... So many angles to take, which one to choose. Perhaps like this?
> 
> http://r i d e s h a r e d r i v e r s u n i t e d.com/uber-ordered-to-treat-drivers-as-workers-with-full-rights-after-losing-appeal/
> 
> Uber ordered to treat drivers as workers with full rights after losing appeal


please tell Paul that the petition is not needed any more as the uber has been ordered to be nice to the drivers 
...kind of a peculiar that after days of not seeing ether of you suddenly you both are back same time!!!!
some might event think that there is some sharing of a keyboard or hands using it


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## Paul Collins

You have your hands on something and it is not a keyboard.


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## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> You have your hands on something and it is not a keyboard.


?????????,would you elaborate please!!!


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## UberDriverAU

From the 1st of December 2017, Uber will be paying GST on all their fees for all drivers and therefore "paying their fare share of the GST". It looks like this petition was a resounding success after all, getting the change you were looking for within a mere two weeks!


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## WhiteCro

UberDriverAU said:


> From the 1st of December 2017, Uber will be paying GST on all their fees for all drivers and therefore "paying their fare share of the GST". It looks like this petition was a resounding success after all, getting the change you were looking for within a mere two weeks!


Victory for the people! 

Although not until 1st of December, back pay of unpaid GST for the last few years of operation by Uber next!!!


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## MyRedUber

WhiteCro said:


> Although not until 1st of December, back pay of unpaid GST for the last few years of operation by Uber next!!!


Until December 1st, Australian drivers have not been dealing with an Australian company, hence no GST credit. You can't create an Australian entity retrospectively. You're not going to get any money back.


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## WhiteCro

Uber has decreased the income of drivers to make it GST inclusive, once again taking more from the driver.


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## Jack Malarkey

Jack Malarkey said:


> fields, I have now written to Senator Leyonhjelm asking him about the private member's bill. I'll let you know about any reply I receive.
> 
> I have received the following acknowledgment:
> 
> Hi Jack--
> 
> Thank you for your feedback.
> 
> I'll have a read and get back to you if necessary.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> *Senator David Leyonhjelm*
> Leader of the Liberal Democrats
> http://www.davidleyonhjelm.com.au/


I have now received a reply from the office of Senator David Leyonhjelm (Liberal Democrats, New South Wales) to my enquiry about progress on the private member's bill to amend the GST law to ensure that those providing 'taxi services' (as defined) are not discriminated against by not having the same GST threshold as other kinds of enterprise have.

As fields has reminded us, Senator Leyonhjelm during the 2016 election campaign undertook to introduce such a bill.

Here is the reply that I received earlier today:

Hello Jack, We have a long queue of bills to be drafted by the Senate clerks, which we cannot speed up. This bill is in the queue.

Regards,
Liberal Democrats Team


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## MyRedUber

Jack Malarkey said:


> amend the GST law to ensure that those providing 'taxi services' (as defined) are not discriminated against by not having the same GST threshold as other kinds of enterprise have.


Then there would be two fare rates for passengers, one if you get a driver earning under $75K and another higher fare if you get a driver earning over $75K.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> Then there would be two fare rates for passengers, one if you get a driver earning under $75K and another higher fare if you get a driver earning over $75K.


Call one plumber they don't pay GST, call another and they do. What's the difference? Uber also already has a multitude of fare schedules because of surge pricing. The customer is offered a price and has the opportunity to accept or decline the price offered. It's different for rank and hail work.


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## MyRedUber

UberDriverAU said:


> Call one plumber they don't pay GST, call another and they do. What's the difference? Uber also already has a multitude of fare schedules because of surge pricing. The customer is offered a price and has the opportunity to accept or decline the price offered. It's different for rank and hail work.


The difference is that the passenger does not know which driver they will get. The fare will be higher if they get a driver who earns more than $75K. Same applies to all of the situations you've nominated, rank and hail taxi, hire car or rideshare.

With a plumber, you call first and get a quote or estimate.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> The difference is that the passenger does not know which driver they will get. The fare will be higher if they get a driver who earns more than $75K. Same applies to all of the situations you've nominated, rank and hail taxi, hire car or rideshare.


You can already get an estimate from Uber first. All that would be required is decreasing the lower estimate slightly, or they might not even bother at all. Who's going to complain if the fare cost less than estimated? And yes, the rider knows exactly who they are getting, it has the driver's name and rego right there on the screen and they can cancel within 5 minutes with no penalty if they want. The only people I can foresee actually caring about whether or not a driver is GST registered are business users. Simply add a "give me a GST registered driver" switch in the app and they have full control over the type of driver they get. With modern technology, the reasons for the rule aren't as necessary as they once were. The NZ model is a lot better than the AU model in this regard. Those driving for hire and reward get the threshold, but there is a general (non-industry specific) requirement to register for GST from the first dollar if (and only if) you advertise prices as being GST inclusive.



MyRedUber said:


> With a plumber, you call first and get a quote or estimate.


And how many people would ever ask "are you registered for GST?" and then if they reply "yes", say "sorry, I'm going to find someone who's not registered for GST"?


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## MyRedUber

You really are clueless.
The rider does not know at the time of the fare estimate if they will get a low fare driver or a high fare driver, nor do they have an opportunity of choosing one or the other. At the time of the fare estimate, even Uber don't know which driver will be offered the job, nor which driver will accept the job.
Business users do not need a Tax Invoice from a driver who does not collect GST.
With the plumber, you don't need to ask if they're registered for GST or not. You just get a quote or estimate. But if you get two prices, lower for cash, you know that they're dodging tax.


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