# Low Wages, High Stress: The Lives Of Uber Drivers



## SLuz (Oct 20, 2016)

http://wamu.org/story/17/08/01/low-wages-high-stress-d-c-researchers-delve-lives-uber-drivers/
*Low Wages, High Stress: D.C. Researchers Delve Into The Lives Of Uber Drivers*
WAMU Washington DC Public Radio by Martin Di Caro - Aug 1, 2017

"It was consuming my life at one point."

When Kim Hall, a school bus driver in Prince George's County, signed up to drive for Uber to make some extra cash, she did not foresee the stress, demands on her time, and, ultimately, the dissatisfaction that came with her new gig.

She started by driving a couple nights a week after her split shift ended at her day job, making for 16-hour days. But Hall soon realized she would have to drive for Uber on weekends to make enough money to cover the $138 weekly payment for the car she leased from the ride-hailing giant.

"During the week it was hard to make money," said Hall, because minimum fares for short trips paid her a few bucks each, "so I would have to do weekends." Soon she found herself working six or seven days a week, and the time away from family and friends was not worth the extra income.

"Like on Friday night and Saturday, I would maybe earn $180, and once Uber takes their $130-something, that's just not worth my time," recalled Hall in an interview with WAMU.

After juggling her two jobs for a year, she quit Uber and returned the car. "I'm not going to drive all those hours to make this little money."

*Uber's fraught relationship with drivers*
Hall was one of about 30,000 people who drive for Uber during a typical week in the Washington metropolitan area. They are the backbone of the so-called gig economy, a largely part-time workforce who provides travelers cheap rides.

But after spending years honing a business model to keep its customers happy, Uber is taking what it admits are overdue steps to keep its drivers satisfied, unveiling a package of improvements to boost pay and provide support. The measures are the result of months of company outreach to drivers.

On July 17, in-app tipping launched in the D.C. area - "the number one request of drivers," according to Uber spokesman Bill Gibbons - and several more improvements followed.

Drivers will receive 24/7 phone support; ratings protection when passengers give poor reviews for problems outside drivers' control, i.e. traffic congestion; $15 for returning lost items; and faster document review for registrations, driver's licenses, and insurance cards...

_[ read the rest of the story here ]_


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

"But Uber will not substantially raise rates. Instead, the company will continue to provide incentives and pay bonuses to boost drivers’ earnings."

So much for raising rates...

To a livable level for the drivers...

Do you think they will EVER learn???

Me thinks not...so sad...8(

Rakos


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## Steve2967 (Jun 14, 2017)

High stress? That's a joke...


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

Its kinda funny in a way...

When my wife is working...

And I'm talking to her on the phone...

Her voice goes UP a couple octaves...

As she screams...

I GOT ANOTHER UBER CALL...8)

Rakos


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

High stress? Come on. Clearly if you drive and are stressed you need to find another gig. 

As for pay. This was NEVER designed to be a full time income. Something part time to fill a financial gap or retirement fun money. 

How is $25 an hour NET a bad part time wage?


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## u-Boat (Jan 4, 2016)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> High stress? Come on. Clearly if you drive and are stressed you need to find another gig.


Long hours of driving can indeed be mentally stressful. YOU go find another gig.


UBERPROcolorado said:


> As for pay. This was NEVER designed to be a full time income. Something part time to fill a financial gap or retirement fun money.


Says who? A lot of people do this for a living full time. They're called taxi and limo drivers.


UBERPROcolorado said:


> How is $25 an hour NET a bad part time wage?


No one believes you earn $25 an hour NET driving uBer X part time with your own vehicle.


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

Part time? I work 30 hrs a week. Give or take. Includes Tips of course. Maybe Denver is better than other city's. Oh by the way before I retired I drove and trained drivers for a national personal protection firm. After 30 yrs with the firm, shuttling ppl around is a joy. Drive safe


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> Part time? I work 30 hrs a week. Give or take. Includes Tips of course. Maybe Denver is better than other city's. Oh by the way before I retired I drove and trained drivers for a national personal protection firm. After 30 yrs with the firm, shuttling ppl around is a joy. Drive safe


Bit of a change driving Uber...

And I'll bet you are not one to be triffled with...8)

Butt...picked a he$$ of a place to drive...

Imagine a lot of riders are blitzed...8)

Rakos

PS. I just love English Springers...8)


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> High stress? Come on. Clearly if you drive and are stressed you need to find another gig.
> 
> As for pay. This was NEVER designed to be a full time income. Something part time to fill a financial gap or retirement fun money.
> 
> How is $25 an hour NET a bad part time wage?


'

I can't always get $25 net in a taxi, with all my revenue going into my pocket... $25 net on uber is impossible in some markets.

In orlando it's closer to $7-10 net with profit being a question and a matter of opinion.


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

Rakos said:


> Bit of a change driving Uber...
> 
> And I'll bet you are not one to be triffled with...8)
> 
> ...


Bad ass =NOT. Just saying that there is money to be made if you know which sub market within a market your do best with. I rock with the drunks. Last night sucked. To many ppl. Could not get to riders. Happens sometimes. So I improvised and still made 161 plus 62 in tips over 6.2 hours. Uber is a mess. No doubt. But I figure if I can make my little corner profitable, then who cares what uber does.


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## westsidebum (Feb 7, 2015)

The article established a few things such as that most drivers dont know their actual earnings. Many driver were driving for less than minimum wage when they broke down all their real costs. Also, earnings were never,consistent and required larger investments of time for often nominal earnings. Most abandoned rideshare when they realized the commitment and cost was not worth the,return. According to analysts uber and lyft can continue to cheat drivers as long as there are millions of suckers willing to sign up and drive part time and short term



u-Boat said:


> Long hours of driving can indeed be mentally stressful. YOU go find another gig.
> 
> Says who? A lot of people do this for a living full time. They're called taxi and limo drivers.
> 
> No one believes you earn $25 an hour NET driving uBer X part time with your own vehicle.


These digressions into hourly pay are absolutely stupid and a sign of unsophisticated nob drivers who know nothing about business.


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

westsidebum said:


> The article established a few things such as that most drivers dont know their actual earnings. Many driver were driving for less than minimum wage when they broke down all their real costs. Also, earnings were never,consistent and required larger investments of time for often nominal earnings. Most abandoned rideshare when they realized the commitment and cost was not worth the,return. According to analysts uber and lyft can continue to cheat drivers as long as there are millions of suckers willing to sign up and drive part time and short term
> 
> These digressions into hourly pay are absolutely stupid and a sign of unsophisticated nob drivers who know nothing about business.


Lmao....so what equations do use to determine your earnings?


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> Lmao....so what equations do use to determine your earnings?


The same one they used...

To put a man on the moon...

Less a few hundred thousand miles...8)

Rakos


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## westsidebum (Feb 7, 2015)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> Lmao....so what equations do use to determine your earnings?


 Laughing your ass off. Do you know anything about returns on investment and risk return analysis?


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## Buckiemohawk (Jun 23, 2015)

The thing is that Uber prices themselves on hourly pay to the drivers. One evening as a taxi driver I picked up a guy at SW area, drop him up to Casselberry and back. 140 dollars in one run. I then picked up people at Thani Thai going to Pacific Royale, I dropped and picked up People going downtown for an event. i am now at 180 dollars. People flag me down outside downtown by the courthouse going all the way down to Davenport. 80 dollars plus tip. This used to be an amazing day as a cab driver. This happened all the time in October. One night i had slow night and barely had made the cab money about 120 dollars on 6 to 6 lease. When out stumbles three men needing to go to the airport. I secured 45 dollars with tip. I go back to Renaissance and secure another and for my last run I got Sanford airport. Going by hours is a loosing proposition.


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

westsidebum said:


> Laughing your ass off. Do you know anything about returns on investment and risk return analysis?


Yes on both subjects. The investment should be minimal as we are dealing with a minimal return, at very best. Example: An older vehicle...cash purchase. Risk is very low. Numbers are very consistent and are known based on the hours worked and the day of the week. Uber is simple math. Mile are only relevant when it comes to right offs. Miles will also vary greatly even though the return changes very little,

I think there may be two very distinct types of drivers, each with completely different goals. The first are the taxi and Lomo drivers. An industry that can or at least could before uber and lyft, carve out a full time income. The second group drives uber and lyft. Not designed as a full time endeavour, rather a part time gig to make a few extra bucks and have fun.

I can get how taxi and limo drives are serious about the numbers and how they stack up. But some rideshare drivers are expecting way more than the gig can or will ever pay. As an uber driver, I go out to have fun, meet nice ppl and enjoy myself. The only reason I even know my numbers is because I run my uber through an LLC for liability purposes, thus have a bookkeeper do the books.

I bet ride share drivers would have more fun and less stress if they just slow down and enjoy the ride. Drive safe.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> How is $25 an hour NET a bad part time wage?


HAHAHA! I drove Rochester NY last friday night from 6:30 PM until about 1:00 AM and NETTED $8/hour. My miles are going to deduct out dead on the uber earnings so I'm tax neutral. My total cost per mile is $.25 (gas, depreciation, maintenance).


> "Drivers had a feeling they were making money, but when we actually did the math with them, some of them came down to hourly earnings that were below minimum wage,"


This is in fact exactly why Uber pays so little--*drivers are not doing the math*. My buddy who signed me up for this has two degrees and makes good money at his primary job but is nonetheless too stupid to figure out what he actually makes. He thinks his only overhead is gas. I'm positive a lot of drivers don't realize what they are actually making.

BTW I'm doing it because it's kind of interesting. I make tons more per hour at my real job. But at these wages it would be impossible to have this a full time job at least in my area, not unless you want to live on ramen. And there are better jobs that pay more and are more predictable, even if you have no skills.


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

Stress is also an avoidable thing, in most cases. From what I have read in this forum, much of the stress is caused by negative interactions with the pax. The word NO creates stress. If one can eliminate NO from most responses to a pax, the stress factor goes away. Just something to think about. Drive safe.

Last night it was slow in Denver. Picked two bar hoppers around midnight. Can we stop by a 7-11 for nachos. Answer: YES. The stop took about 10 min. Can we eat in the car or would you prefer we wait. Answer: A smile and we are only a few minutes away from home....I just worry about spills. Pax response: you are right. TIP = $20 PLUS THE FARE.

A hour later I hear a cell going off in the car and it is not mine or my pax. The pax hunted around and found it. I knew which pax it was and finished the current trip. Went thru support for contact info. At the same time the pax is calling. Figured out which air BNB he was at and brought him the phone. Total invested time from call to dropping the phone off 18 min. $15 from uber and $40 from the pax. 

Being nice and helpfully pays.


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## burgerflipper (Jun 23, 2017)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> I think there may be two very distinct types of drivers, each with completely different goals. The first are the taxi and Lomo drivers. An industry that can or at least could before uber and lyft, carve out a full time income. The second group drives uber and lyft. Not designed as a full time endeavour, rather a part time gig to make a few extra bucks and have fun.
> 
> I can get how taxi and limo drives are serious about the numbers and how they stack up. But some rideshare drivers are expecting way more than the gig can or will ever pay. As an uber driver, I go out to have fun, meet nice ppl and enjoy myself. The only reason I even know my numbers is because I run my uber through an LLC for liability purposes, thus have a bookkeeper do the books.


yeah, the theory behind "rideshare" was probably part timers doing it for fun. but its been around for a few years already and its time for a reassessment. would Uber be functional if there werent thousands of drivers in every city trying to actually make a liveable wage? the answer is clearly no. uber needs their full-time, dedicated driver base at least as much as they need their part time "chill" guys. Its time to reassess the business model and raise rates for drivers.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> Being nice and helpfully pays.


Absolutely right! In fact I got a surprise $20 tip a couple nights ago just for being nice.


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

burgerflipper said:


> yeah, the theory behind "rideshare" was probably part timers doing it for fun. but its been around for a few years already and its time for a reassessment. would Uber be functional if there werent thousands of drivers in every city trying to actually make a liveable wage? the answer is clearly no. uber needs their full-time, dedicated driver base at least as much as they need their part time "chill" guys. Its time to reassess the business model and raise rates for drivers.


Your are right on point. Uber created the monster but now cannot control it. Fact: the dream (wet) of the founder is over. Self driving cars will not replace driver units, they will simply accompany them on the roads. Fact: the days of "here is a few more billion Travis" is over. A plan toward profit is now urgent. And to do so, they need to capture the market share. And this will not happen without lot and lots of well behaved drivers. The CEO position is open...try applying. Might help everyone.



goneubering said:


> Absolutely right! In fact I got a surprise $20 tip a couple nights ago just for being nice.


Sweet. Less stress and more cash. Got to love it.

I got a call downtown tonight. Got there to find out I was headed to North ft Collins. No return trip will be in the cards. $67 trip $25 tip. Add to the rest of the night ....not a bad slow Tues.


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## CrisD (Aug 23, 2017)

Rakos said:


> The same one they used...
> 
> To put a man on the moon...
> 
> ...


Teehee...


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

burgerflipper said:


> yeah, the theory behind "rideshare" was probably part timers doing it for fun. but its been around for a few years already and its time for a reassessment. would Uber be functional if there werent thousands of drivers in every city trying to actually make a liveable wage? the answer is clearly no. uber needs their full-time, dedicated driver base at least as much as they need their part time "chill" guys. Its time to reassess the business model and raise rates for drivers.


But is it, really? The pay from uber sucks, but the pay from uber is exactly what it should be. I use as proof simply the fact that people are still willing to do it. Lyft is in direct competition with uber and aggressively so. We now have two major companies competing for drivers and both pay about the same. The fact of the matter is that as long as there are people willing to drive around for a net of $8-10/hour on a lazy evening (and checking your app you can see they are) there is no reason for uber to pay more. Both companies have basically just figured out the bare minimum they need to pay drivers. But they still have drivers, so they are right.

So now the base pay rate is terrible, and uber can raise wages as necessary only when and where necessary, predictably, via the boost areas. It's a clever approach to business from their end.

Uber is not here to service drivers, it is here for passengers. The less it can do for drivers the better for it, so it's only going to pay as much as it has to while still collecting its actual source of revenue via riders.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> But is it, really? The pay from uber sucks, but the pay from uber is exactly what it should be. I use as proof simply the fact that people are still willing to do it. Lyft is in direct competition with uber and aggressively so. We now have two major companies competing for drivers and both pay about the same. The fact of the matter is that as long as there are people willing to drive around for a net of $8-10/hour on a lazy evening (and checking your app you can see they are) there is no reason for uber to pay more. Both companies have basically just figured out the bare minimum they need to pay drivers. But they still have drivers, so they are right.
> 
> So now the base pay rate is terrible, and uber can raise wages as necessary only when and where necessary, predictably, via the boost areas. It's a clever approach to business from their end.
> 
> Uber is not here to service drivers, it is here for passengers. The less it can do for drivers the better for it, so it's only going to pay as much as it has to while still collecting its actual source of revenue via riders.


Both companies are bleeding red ink. That cannot continue forever. I see Uber buying Lyft, in the future, or some kind of merger.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

goneubering said:


> Both companies are bleeding red ink. That cannot continue forever. I see Uber buying Lyft, in the future, or some kind of merger.


That will make them even less likely to raise driver pay!

I still don't understand how Uber is losing money (I know they are, though). Is it all via its expansion/marketing? Their server requirements are surely high, but I frankly don't see a great deal of complexity in their software, and they pocket a huge percentage of money on each fare.


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> That will make them even less likely to raise driver pay!
> 
> I still don't understand how Uber is losing money (I know they are, though). Is it all via its expansion/marketing? Their server requirements are surely high, but I frankly don't see a great deal of complexity in their software, and they pocket a huge percentage of money on each fare.


You know those people...

That are always begging for spare change...

It seems that Uber is...

Playing the same card...

If Uber advertised that they...

Were making so much money...

Do you think they could get by...

With doing the things they are doing...?

Makes you think...

Is it REAL...or is it Memorex...?

Something is fishy in Denmark...8>)

Rakos

PS. Have you ever heard Lyft do this???


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

Rakos said:


> You know those people...
> 
> That are always begging for spare change...
> 
> ...


they are public traded though, so they truly are losing money--they can't lie about it. I can't seem to find on google precisely how when I drive somebody for $15 and uber merely handles a few pings to their server and the occasional complaint to "help" and then pockets $5 they are really losing but I guess they are somehow.


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> they are public traded though, so they truly are losing money--they can't lie about it. I can't seem to find on google precisely how when I drive somebody for $15 and uber merely handles a few pings to their server and the occasional complaint to "help" and then pockets $5 they are really losing but I guess they are somehow.


Ok...now you got me...

Are you saying Uber is publicly traded.. ?

Must be another Uber...

Cause the Uber I drive for...

Is NOT publicly traded...

Unless it's a backroom deal...

Rakos


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## ChortlingCrison (Mar 30, 2016)

u-Boat said:


> Long hours of driving can indeed be mentally stressful. YOU go find another gig.
> 
> Says who? A lot of people do this for a living full time. They're called taxi and limo drivers.
> 
> No one believes you earn $25 an hour NET driving uBer X part time with your own vehicle.


Typical knee-jerk responses. I'm sure glados is proud of you.


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## u-Boat (Jan 4, 2016)

ChortlingCrison said:


> Typical knee-jerk responses. I'm sure glados is proud of you.


Dude made 3 BS statements and I simply called him out on them. Your reply is the actual "typical knee-jerk response". Go Chortle somewhere else.


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## burgerflipper (Jun 23, 2017)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> But is it, really? The pay from uber sucks, but the pay from uber is exactly what it should be. I use as proof simply the fact that people are still willing to do it. Lyft is in direct competition with uber and aggressively so. We now have two major companies competing for drivers and both pay about the same. The fact of the matter is that as long as there are people willing to drive around for a net of $8-10/hour on a lazy evening (and checking your app you can see they are) there is no reason for uber to pay more. Both companies have basically just figured out the bare minimum they need to pay drivers. But they still have drivers, so they are right.
> 
> So now the base pay rate is terrible, and uber can raise wages as necessary only when and where necessary, predictably, via the boost areas. It's a clever approach to business from their end.
> 
> Uber is not here to service drivers, it is here for passengers. The less it can do for drivers the better for it, so it's only going to pay as much as it has to while still collecting its actual source of revenue via riders.


you may be right. yes uber is losing money (here are some reasons relevant for thos topic: paying boost and quest, and advertising plus sign up bonuses for the new drivers they constantly have to attract to replace the folks who leave after a year), and yes the myths about uber driving are beginning to be exposed in mainstream media and public opinion which will, as time goes on, cost them both riders and drivers, but for now things are still rolling.

unless things change in the future, or uber decides raising rates will help their business by eliminating the expenses i mentioned above, we shouldnt expect raises from uber. the only way we can expect to see improvement in that area is if drivers unionize. As an NYC driver, i am aware that there are some drivers in NYC working on a new union idea right now. one that might actually work.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

burgerflipper said:


> you may be right. yes uber is losing money (here are some reasons relevant for thos topic: paying boost and quest, and advertising plus sign up bonuses for the new drivers they constantly have to attract to replace the folks who leave after a year), and yes the myths about uber driving are beginning to be exposed in mainstream media and public opinion which will, as time goes on, cost them both riders and drivers, but for now things are still rolling.
> 
> unless things change in the future, or uber decides raising rates will help their business by eliminating the expenses i mentioned above, we shouldnt expect raises from uber. the only way we can expect to see improvement in that area is if drivers unionize. As an NYC driver, i am aware that there are some drivers in NYC working on a new union idea right now. one that might actually work.


unionizng would be very hard though. If drivers threatened to strike one Friday for instance uber could just turn on 4x surging for the night and charge customers regular price. Then the boycott would fall apart. And they could hold out longer doing this than a city worth of drivers could boycott. Or even a nation worth really.

The best tool to keep UBer in check is lyft. If drivers got sick of it and did only lyft uber riders would find out lyft has lower waits then uber starts to die then uber says oh no you don't and then it raises fares.

Anything uber does in this "180 days" for example will only help drivers if it also helps uber. Today at lunch I did destination with time feature. That is nice for me but also nice for uber because it let me run for an hour I couldn't have otherwise.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> That will make them even less likely to raise driver pay!
> 
> I still don't understand how Uber is losing money (I know they are, though). Is it all via its expansion/marketing? Their server requirements are surely high, but I frankly don't see a great deal of complexity in their software, and they pocket a huge percentage of money on each fare.


I'm not sure, but I suspect there's a big black hole sucking up money with their search for the driverless car. I also suspect, but cannot prove, that expanding into India is costing them lots of money.


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

goneubering said:


> I'm not sure, but I suspect there's a big black hole sucking up money with their search for the driverless car. I also suspect, but cannot prove, that expanding into India is costing them lots of money.


Yes but look at the bright side...

At least now their call center...

Is considered local...

And they speak the same language...

Even a monkey can see that...8>)

Rakos


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## Spotscat (May 8, 2017)

Rakos said:


> "But Uber will not substantially raise rates. Instead, the company will continue to provide incentives and pay bonuses to boost drivers' earnings."
> 
> So much for raising rates...
> 
> ...


"But I've got a friend in (insert name of large city here), and he says he makes (insert ungodly astronomical figure here) and only works 4 days a week!"


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

Well...they used to have something called...

Indentured servitude...

That people knowingly entered in to...

Wouldn't fly today...

Or would it...8O

Rakos


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

Hal what is your acceptance rate?

It's true many people make less than minimum wage doing this. I might even say the majority.


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## Kho (Aug 26, 2017)

Google: "Cost per mile to maintain a car"

59 cents will be the general answer you find. The cost goes down the more you drive because you are getting more miles in per insurance monthly cost, so you may bring that price down. If you get commercial insurance then that cost will go up.

3 weeks ago I was being paid 60 cents per miles which does not account for the trip to the customer or the drive back without aquiring a customer. This also does not compensate wait time. 

Thise 2 simple details alone will spark to any people interested of how much you actually make. You make enough to keep your car and have enough money aside to replace it when the time comes.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

Kho said:


> Google: "Cost per mile to maintain a car"
> 
> 59 cents will be the general answer you find.


It's right, but not right; it's like googling "what does a house cost". Average house costs maybe $230k or something, but what about mine?

IRS thinks it costs $.535/mile to run a car, but it's including cost of licensing/insurance (irrelevant to many of us, as uber covers us while we drive and we have license/insurance on our vehicles regardless for personal use), and also depreciation on a primary business vehicle, but if you're using a family vehicle the depreciation per mile is only at the mile level, not mile + age of car, etc. If you're driving a 2009 Prius that already has 130k miles on it clearly your per mile cost is massively less than what the IRS lets you deduct at.


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## UberProphet? (Dec 24, 2014)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> It's right, but not right; it's like googling "what does a house cost". Average house costs maybe $230k or something, but what about mine?
> 
> IRS thinks it costs $.535/mile to run a car, but it's including cost of licensing/insurance (irrelevant to many of us, as uber covers us while we drive and we have license/insurance on our vehicles regardless for personal use), and also depreciation on a primary business vehicle, but if you're using a family vehicle the depreciation per mile is only at the mile level, not mile + age of car, etc. If you're driving a 2009 Prius that already has 130k miles on it clearly your per mile cost is massively less than what the IRS lets you deduct at.


Another plea to ignore the actual costs and to pretend that maintenance to come is not a "real" expense until it is incurred. It is well established in the car industry that a new car costs only slightly more to drive than a used car. As the depreciation goes down, the maintenance costs go up making the cost per mile remarkably stable over the life of the car. And eventually the car is "not worth fixing".

Please show your EVIDENCE that an Uber car can drive without insurance, plates, depreciation and maintenance.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> Bad ass =NOT. Just saying that there is money to be made if you know which sub market within a market your do best with. I rock with the drunks. Last night sucked. To many ppl. Could not get to riders. Happens sometimes. So I improvised and still made 161 plus 62 in tips over 6.2 hours. Uber is a mess. No doubt. But I figure if I can make my little corner profitable, then who cares what uber does.


Yeah, you're ok in your market so screw everyone else...give it time. Eventually your little corner will suck too.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

UberProphet? said:


> Another plea to ignore the actual costs and to pretend that maintenance to come is not a "real" expense until it is incurred. It is well established in the car industry that a new car costs only slightly more to drive than a used car. As the depreciation goes down, the maintenance costs go up making the cost per mile remarkably stable over the life of the car. And eventually the car is "not worth fixing".
> 
> *Please show your EVIDENCE that an Uber car can drive without insurance, plates, depreciation and maintenance.*


Not sure who you're talking to; I never said that, so I can't be expected to provide evidence for something I didn't say; you didn't understand what I said.

Most of us are using personal vehicles. These will have insurance + license regardless of uber. Uber does not increase those costs; ergo those costs are irrelevant to uber.


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## Kho (Aug 26, 2017)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> It's right, but not right; it's like googling "what does a house cost". Average house costs maybe $230k or something, but what about mine?
> 
> IRS thinks it costs $.535/mile to run a car, but it's including cost of licensing/insurance (irrelevant to many of us, as uber covers us while we drive and we have license/insurance on our vehicles regardless for personal use), and also depreciation on a primary business vehicle, but if you're using a family vehicle the depreciation per mile is only at the mile level, not mile + age of car, etc. If you're driving a 2009 Prius that already has 130k miles on it clearly your per mile cost is massively less than what the IRS lets you deduct at.


No cost is "irrelevent". If you have a prius at 130k and it cost you 10k, then you could end up paying for a new transmission, battery, engine, etc that you wouldnt have to pay for any time soon if you used it for just personal use. There for that .59 for a newer car could actually be $1.50 for you because you dont know what and when higher cost things will go. Also, from what I researched, a lot of insurance companies will drop you from their policy if they find out youre using your car for commercial use without commercial insurance.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

Kho said:


> No cost is "irrelevent". If you have a prius at 130k and it cost you 10k, then you could end up paying for a new transmission, battery, engine, etc that you wouldnt have to pay for any time soon if you used it for just personal use. There for that .59 for a newer car could actually be $1.50 for you because you dont know what and when higher cost things will go. Also, from what I researched, a lot of insurance companies will drop you from their policy if they find out youre using your car for commercial use without commercial insurance.


Most of us are using personal vehicles. These will have insurance + license regardless of uber. Uber does not increase those costs; ergo those costs are irrelevant to uber.


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## UberProphet? (Dec 24, 2014)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> Most of us are using personal vehicles. These will have insurance + license regardless of uber. Uber does not increase those costs; ergo those costs are irrelevant to uber.


Those costs may be irrelevant to Uber, but you are arguing they are irrelevant to YOU!

Ps When you rent out rooms in your fabulous beach house, do you only charge the increased costs of water, sewage, garbage and electricity? Or do you charge more because of the sunk cost of capital invested in the beach house and your valuable time? And maybe you charge even more and call it PROFIT!


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## Kho (Aug 26, 2017)

Ok, I was busy at the moment, but now I can make a more detailed post. What you make from Uber is not an opinion, its math with some fluctuating variables. I will use your prius with 130k miles and no repairs needed EVER. Although most newbies wont have a high gas mileage prius to come into this with. I will even make everything as optomistic as I can.

Miles needed to make 31,200 a year at .60 cents per mile. ($15 an hour at 40 hours a week)

Miles needed = 52,000 miles 



Cost of vehicle: $10,000
Life of vehicle: 300,000 miles

170,000 miles of use for $10,000. You can get 3 years of use out of this car with hardly any personal use. This leaves your car costing you about $3,000 a year to use for work.

Yearly cost

Car: $3,000
Tires: $400
Breaks(if you do them yourself): $80
Oil changes every 6k miles: $240
Gas(at 52 miles per gallon just for you and $2.00 a gallon): $2,000
Car wash/vacuum ($30 a month membership): $360

Total = $6,080 a year

Leftover after taking out extremely optimistic expenses is $25,120

($25,120/52)/40 = $12.07 per hour. Didnt even charge you for car imsurance since you have to pay for it anyways with your 5,000 miles of personal use only driving to a grocery store. Didnt charge you for any sort of taxes. Didnt charge you for any repairs at all which would be extremely unlikely in that case. So, if you think you can aquire 25 miles of customer driving time per every hour you log on with fulltime hours then you will make after expenses, $12.07 an hour. 

If you want to be realistic and throw in some repairs in your 52,000 miles of driving an over 100,000 mile car then that drops. Include your insurance because this is a business car. Get a personal car for the side, so you don't end up ****ed. Also, most people dont own a prius. If they have a decent mpg car then they may hit 30 mpg which means their gas expense is almost twice 52 mpg. People who do uber for a living make trash money per hour. End of story.

Also, the "we are using our personal vehicles" statement is a very bad way to think. Your car wont last forever. It has a lifespan and you are giving away most of that lifespan to Uber, seriously. If you arent charging Uber for that up front investment that you are giving them then you are providing Uber with a free vehicle in a literal sense. You said "Hey, I have this car, want to have most of it for free?" Meanwhile, at any moment you may find yourself without a vehicle because you didnt expect Uber to pay for it.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

UberProphet? said:


> Those costs may be irrelevant to Uber, but you are arguing they are irrelevant to YOU!
> 
> Ps When you rent out rooms in your fabulous beach house, do you only charge the increased costs of water, sewage, garbage and electricity? Or do you charge more because of the sunk cost of capital invested in the beach house and your valuable time? And maybe you charge even more and call it PROFIT!


They are. Do I have to pay more or the same to license my car if I drive uber? Did my insurance rate go up (and I am aware of what it vs uber insurance covers).

I am not oblivious to the fact turnover for uber is insane though. Once they burn through all the recruits of new drivers they may have to get more serious. Lyft seems to be doing that; uber takes too much of a cut.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

Kho said:


> Ok, I was busy at the moment, but now I can make a more detailed post. What you make from Uber is not an opinion, its math with some fluctuating variables. I will use your prius with 130k miles and no repairs needed EVER. Although most newbies wont have a high gas mileage prius to come into this with. I will even make everything as optomistic as I can.
> 
> Miles needed to make 31,200 a year at .60 cents per mile. ($15 an hour at 40 hours a week)
> 
> ...


your numbers are good. Uber does pay low.

My calc on personal vehicle is as such: my 2013 car has 65k. I plan on keeping it three more years @15k/per year personal, so 110k. I then estimated how its value would decrease if, three years from now, it has extra miles from uber. I ran edmunds tmv on a 2010 vehicle and determined that for every extra 10k miles it loses about $700 in value. With each subsequent 10k miles naturally the reduction is less. $.07/mile in depreciation. Repairs and main I estimate from experience approx 5/mile. Gas is 12/mile in my van, so approx 25/mile.

To date I am calculating an all-in take home after vehicle costs and small taxes (can't deduct all uber unfortunately) my true take home is approx 55% of what my uber earnings show.

So yeah waiting 10 min for a hit then driving 7 min then waiting a min then a five minute drive for $3.66 minimum fare is...not great. That is a worst case though. Last night i netted $9/hour total profit.

Would love to know what it would be if I was only doing lyft and uberxl. Uberx is table scraps in my town because surging is rare as hens teeth.


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## Kho (Aug 26, 2017)

ShinyAndChrome said:


> your numbers are good. Uber does pay low.
> 
> My calc on personal vehicle is as such: my 2013 car has 65k. I plan on keeping it three more years @15k/per year personal, so 110k. I then estimated how its value would decrease if, three years from now, it has extra miles from uber. I ran edmunds tmv on a 2010 vehicle and determined that for every extra 10k miles it loses about $700 in value. With each subsequent 10k miles naturally the reduction is less. $.07/mile in depreciation. Repairs and main I estimate from experience approx 5/mile. Gas is 12/mile in my van, so approx 25/mile.
> 
> ...


You made $9 an hour with your maintenance numbers. Now calculate it if you were getting 30 mpg in your vehicle. Now calculate it getting 16 mpg (me). You were fortunate enough to actually own a prius and have an interest in Uber. Economically you have an edge over most people. That $9 an hour for you could hsve been 7-8 an hour for another.

Also, depending on customer volume and driver saturation, a lot of drivers may not get back to back rides. My area, the only time I get 10 minute wait times or less is Friday and Saturday nights. This is 30-40 minutes outside Atlanta. Uber may be ok for trading you vehicle miles for its value to Uber, but not to pay bills.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

Kho said:


> You made $9 an hour with your maintenance numbers. Now calculate it if you were getting 30 mpg in your vehicle. Now calculate it getting 16 mpg (me). You were fortunate enough to actually own a prius and have an interest in Uber. Economically you have an edge over most people. That $9 an hour for you could hsve been 7-8 an hour for another.
> 
> Also, depending on customer volume and driver saturation, a lot of drivers may not get back to back rides. My area, the only time I get 10 minute wait times or less is Friday and Saturday nights. This is 30-40 minutes outside Atlanta. Uber may be ok for trading you vehicle miles for its value to Uber, but not to pay bills.


except in very specific cities it really is not a "pay bills" sort of job for sure. I do wish people realized what the miles truly cost them. I have a neighbor who is too stupid to figure out gas is not his only cost so he is dumping miles onto a late model sedan talking about his "earnings" without realizing what they are. He is also [illegally] going to deduct miles he drives to work for his regular job just because he has destination mode turned on even if he doesn't pick anyone up. Uber's business model is clearly subsidized to some degree by driver stupidity; the inability or unwillingness to figure out true operating costs. My buddy calls me a hater and party pooper for trying to correct him so I have stopped bothering.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberProphet? said:


> Please show your EVIDENCE that an Uber car can drive without insurance, plates, depreciation and maintenance.


Maintenance and repairs, definitely are additional costs -
but as ShinyAndChrome says above and has been discussed over and over - and documented in my UP blog (*Busting The Std Deduction Myth: Why your actual costs are nowhere near the $0.54 deduction allowed by the IRS*), if you are using your personal car to drive rideshare, then you pay for your registration & insurance anyway - and if you drive a car that is older with a ton of miles on it (which not enough drivers do, imo) than your actual costs are far, far lower than the 'averages' published by AAA, and used by the IRS for business use deductions.


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Maintenance and repairs, definitely are additional costs -
> but as ShinyAndChrome says above and has been discussed over and over - and documented in my blog, if you are using your personal car to drive rideshare, then you pay for your registration & insurance anyway - and if you drive a car that is older with a ton of miles on it (which not enough drivers do, imo) than your actual costs are far, far lower than the 'averages' published by AAA, and used by the IRS for business use deductions.


Nailed it! It's absolutely crucial when figuring out real costs to parse out how _uber uniquely and specifically impacts costs_. One mile driven on a vehicle used only for business is more expensive than the same mile driven on a car used first and foremost for personal use. One mile driven on a new vehicle is more expensive than one mile driven on an old, etc.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Kho said:


> You made $9 an hour with your maintenance numbers. Now calculate it if you were getting 30 mpg in your vehicle. Now calculate it getting 16 mpg (me). You were fortunate enough to actually own a prius and have an interest in Uber. Economically you have an edge over most people. That $9 an hour for you could hsve been 7-8 an hour for another.
> 
> Also, depending on customer volume and driver saturation, a lot of drivers may not get back to back rides. My area, the only time I get 10 minute wait times or less is Friday and Saturday nights. This is 30-40 minutes outside Atlanta. Uber may be ok for trading you vehicle miles for its value to Uber, but not to pay bills.


My Acadia gets maybe 15 mpg - half what one of my other cars gets when driving Uber. But after three years of doing this, I've learned that the difference in my fuel costs doesn't have as big an impact on my earnings as I thought it would.

For me, it's the difference between spending ~$80/wk on gas to earn $400 (UberX)
or spending $150/wk to earn $700 (XL). ymmv


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## ChortlingCrison (Mar 30, 2016)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Yeah, you're ok in your market so screw everyone else...give it time. Eventually your little corner will suck too.


A couple weeks of driving in Detroit might make him understand better.


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## Kho (Aug 26, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> My Acadia gets maybe 15 mpg - half what one of my other cars gets when driving Uber. But after three years of doing this, I've learned that the difference in my fuel costs doesn't have as big an impact on my earnings as I thought it would.
> 
> For me, it's the difference between spending ~$80/wk on gas to earn $400 (UberX)
> or spending $150/wk to earn $700 (XL). ymmv


700-150 = 550

That's 28,600 a year. How many miles do you put in your vehicle in a year, how many hours do you work a week, how much do you have to put aside for a replacement vehicle?

If you dont mind me asking.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Kho said:


> 700-150 = 550 That's 28,600 a year. How many miles do you put in your vehicle in a year, how many hours do you work a week, how much do you have to put aside for a replacement vehicle?
> If you dont mind me asking.


I put about ~40,000/mi a year on driving Uber. I drive most nights for a few hours - maybe average 30 hours/wk all told? I stopped tracking the details after the first year and just use my averages. (This isn't that serious a gig for me - it's extra $).

I don't put anything aside for a replacement vehicle. 
I have 4 cars: My personal car and 3 that I bought just to do rideshare (over a 2 year period). 
One sedan, one minivan for XL and one AWD SUV for XL/SELECT).

I paid cash for each and the most I paid for any of them was the Acadia, at $4,000. If one of them goes down for repairs, I drive another while the repairs are done. I pay for all of the cars, fuel maintenance and repairs out of pocket 
(ie: I never finance ANY expense related to rideshare - it's my number one rule).


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