# GEICO just canceled my insurance



## Lone-Wolf

I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."

My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?

So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


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## ATX 22

Uber ratted you out when they called to verify your policy


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## Emp9

That update amendment you agreed to when signing on. Yep that gave uber permission to let insurance know you do uber.


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## rtaatl

Not to mention Uber wants you to let the bank know you're doing rideshare if you have an outstanding auto loan. You're not even considered a 'partner' anymore under the new addendum.


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## Lone-Wolf

Why would they do that? Doing that will reduce the number of drivers especially part timers since insurance companies will drop anyone immediately from a personal policy if they find that person is Ubering. That would ruin Uber's business model and their goal to have as many drivers on the road as possible.

I don't have an auto loan. Bought my car from my aunt and I'm paying her back monthly.


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## rtaatl

Don't know, but it's in the new addendum. My guess is with all the lawsuits and backlash going on they have to square up their legalese to make themselves look legit.


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## limepro

Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."
> 
> My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?
> 
> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


Check out esurance they are partnered with Lyft.


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## Lone-Wolf

Yup, rtaatl, you're right. They are calling insurance companies to verify that we have commercial insurance and not just personal since an insurance company will deny a claim and not pay out to injured passengers in an accident if they find out the driver doesn't have commercial. In that case an injured pax might sue the driver and/or Uber so they are ratting drivers out to protect against lawsuits. Now it all makes sense.

According to the legal language below, I would assume that almost all part timers are subject to being ratted out since I'm guessing almost all part timers have regular personal insurance. Getting commercial insurance would make driving part time completely unprofitable.

"You shall have the sole responsibility for any obligations or liabilities to Users or third parties that arise from your provision of Transportation Services. You acknowledge and agree that you are solely responsible for taking such precautions as may be reasonable and proper (including *maintaining adequate insurance that meets the requirements of all applicable laws* including motor vehicle financial responsibility laws).

"Subject to applicable law, Company and its Affiliates may, but shall not be required to, provide to you, a User, *an insurance company and/or relevant authorities and/or regulatory agencies any information (including personal information* (e.g., information obtained about you through any background check) and any Company Data) about you or any Transportation Services provided hereunder if:

(b) it is necessary to enforce the terms of this Agreement;

(d) it is necessary, in Company's or any Affiliate's sole discretion, to (1) *protect the safety, rights, property or security of Company or its Affiliates, the Uber Services or any third party;* (2) to protect the safety of the public for any reason *including the facilitation of insurance claims related to the Uber Services*; (3) to detect, prevent or otherwise address *fraud*, security or technical issues; (4) *to prevent or stop activity which Company or any of its Affiliates*, in their sole discretion, *may consider to be, or to pose a risk of being, an illegal, unethical, or legally actionable activity*); or (e) it is required or necessary, in Company's or any Affiliate's sole discretion, *for insurance or other purposes related to your ability to qualify, or remain qualified, to use the Uber Services.*"


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## ABC123DEF

Oh my gosh. This is getting worse for all of us by the minute. I curse the day I ever got involved with Uber.


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## BurgerTiime

Someone here had their insurance dropped from posting on Facebook


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## ATX 22

Anybody who's riding dirty. Full time, part time, doesn't matter.


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## Lone-Wolf

ATX 22 said:


> Anybody who's riding dirty. Full time, part time, doesn't matter.


That's probably at least 80% of the drivers out there. If they start ratting out everyone who has personal only they will have hardly any drivers and pax will be paying surge all the time.


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## observer

Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."
> 
> My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?
> 
> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


Do you have the Geico app on your phone?


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## McLovin

Lone-Wolf said:


> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


Are you going to stay active or did you just not tell Progressive? I think I would deactivate my account before looking for a new provider. Is there RideShare insurance in your state?


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## ATX 22

They will start by deactivating dirty drivers who are at the 20% Commission level. They will let the drivers who signed on at a 25% commission rate slide until they raise the commission rate again


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## McLovin

ATX 22 said:


> They will start by deactivating dirty drivers who are at the 20% Commission level. They will let the drivers who signed on at a 25% commission rate slide until they raise the commission rate again


There would be no need to do that when they can simply just change your rate without cause.


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## CommanderXL

observer said:


> Do you have the Geico app on your phone?


 That's a very smart question to ask.


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## observer

CommanderXL said:


> That's a very smart question to ask.


Check out this similar thread,

https://uberpeople.net/threads/i-ca...want-to-renew-my-insurance.54012/#post-735969


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## Lone-Wolf

observer said:


> Do you have the Geico app on your phone?


No.


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## gman

By all accounts Geico appear to be real pricks.


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## Lone-Wolf

CommanderXL said:


> That's a very smart question to ask.


I don't have the GEICO app.


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## observer

Lone-Wolf said:


> No.


Interesting, I wonder how they found out.

GEICO has always been good at finding out and canceling/non renewing drivers.


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## observer

Here's an older thread that points to background checks,

https://uberpeople.net/threads/background-check-results-in-geico-dropping-my-policy.23114/


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## Lone-Wolf

McLovin said:


> Are you going to stay active or did you just not tell Progressive? I think I would deactivate my account before looking for a new provider. Is there RideShare insurance in your state?


I'm going to have to cancel Progressive too since they don't cover rideshare. My policy doesn't start until February. I am calling around to companies that do provide rideshare insurance in TX - Allstate, GEICO, Metlife and Farmers.

So after calling a few places my insurance would go up from $900/yr for personal to about $2,700-$3,000/yr. Looks like its time to go back to my shitty old job until I finish going back to school.


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## Lone-Wolf

ATX 22 said:


> They will start by deactivating dirty drivers who are at the 20% Commission level. They will let the drivers who signed on at a 25% commission rate slide until they raise the commission rate again


Well I am at 20% so that would make sense.


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## rtaatl

Lone-Wolf said:


> Yup, rtaatl, you're right. They are calling insurance companies to verify that we have commercial insurance and not just personal since an insurance company will deny a claim and not pay out to injured passengers in an accident if they find out the driver doesn't have commercial. In that case an injured pax might sue the driver and/or Uber so they are ratting drivers out to protect against lawsuits. Now it all makes sense.
> 
> According to the legal language below, I would assume that almost all part timers are subject to being ratted out since I'm guessing almost all part timers have regular personal insurance. Getting commercial insurance would make driving part time completely unprofitable.
> 
> "You shall have the sole responsibility for any obligations or liabilities to Users or third parties that arise from your provision of Transportation Services. You acknowledge and agree that you are solely responsible for taking such precautions as may be reasonable and proper (including *maintaining adequate insurance that meets the requirements of all applicable laws* including motor vehicle financial responsibility laws).
> 
> "Subject to applicable law, Company and its Affiliates may, but shall not be required to, provide to you, a User, *an insurance company and/or relevant authorities and/or regulatory agencies any information (including personal information* (e.g., information obtained about you through any background check) and any Company Data) about you or any Transportation Services provided hereunder if:
> 
> (b) it is necessary to enforce the terms of this Agreement;
> 
> (d) it is necessary, in Company's or any Affiliate's sole discretion, to (1) *protect the safety, rights, property or security of Company or its Affiliates, the Uber Services or any third party;* (2) to protect the safety of the public for any reason *including the facilitation of insurance claims related to the Uber Services*; (3) to detect, prevent or otherwise address *fraud*, security or technical issues; (4) *to prevent or stop activity which Company or any of its Affiliates*, in their sole discretion, *may consider to be, or to pose a risk of being, an illegal, unethical, or legally actionable activity*); or (e) it is required or necessary, in Company's or any Affiliate's sole discretion, *for insurance or other purposes related to your ability to qualify, or remain qualified, to use the Uber Services.*"


And what I can already tell you is that there is no way UberX drivers are going to be able to afford a real commercial liability policy that runs at least $2500 a year. Not to mention in most states you won't even be allowed to purchase it because, unlike what Uber wants you to believe, you're not really an independent contractor because X drivers are not licensed carriers in most states. They're saying all these things to cover themselves, yet have no idea how the laws apply from state to state. The drivers are really getting hung out to dry on this one. Regulation appears to be coming and there's no way .75/mile is going to cover it. Now everyone will see why transportation providers charge the rates they do.


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## Lone-Wolf

observer said:


> Here's an older thread that points to background checks,
> 
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/background-check-results-in-geico-dropping-my-policy.23114/


My background check was done way back in July 2015 but I just received the letter this week so I doubt that was it. No way GEICO would wait that long.


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## KevinH

Lone-Wolf said:


> Yup,rtaatl, you're right. They are calling insurance companies to verify that we have commercial insurance and not just personal since an insurance company will deny a claim and not pay out to injured passengers in an accident if they find out the driver doesn't have commercial. In that case an injured pax might sue the driver and/or Uber so they are ratting drivers out to protect against lawsuits. Now it all makes sense."


\
This is an extremely important development. I believe that this is the first U.S. instance where the driver's personal policy is required to be aware of TNC use. How did you find out that they are calling insurance companies? Is there a chance that the carriers are using the public ID information available for licensed TNC drivers? How do we know if the insurance company or Uber is the one taking the initiative


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## rtaatl

But the question is Lone-Wolf why is Uber calling out drivers and denying passenger claims if they themselves state there's an umbrella $1M policy when a passenger is in the vehicle. There's more going on that they are not telling us. Looks like this company is starting to bleed.


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## Lone-Wolf

observer said:


> Interesting, I wonder how they found out.
> 
> GEICO has always been good at finding out and canceling/non renewing drivers.


Another poster earlier said Uber is probably calling insurance companies to verify that drivers have commercial insurance b/c they are subject to big time lawsuits if a driver only has personal insurance and there is an accident where pax are hurt. In that case the insurance co. would deny any responsibility and would be free from any liability b/c the driver was violating his/her policy by driving for Uber/Lyft. In that case the injured passengers would sue to driver and Uber for big money.

So Uber, to shield itself from lawsuits is ratting out drivers who don't have commercial insurance. I don't have proof of this but it makes the most sense. Uber doesn't want to be sued by pax for millions b/c drivers have only personal insurance.


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## ATX 22

McLovin said:


> There would be no need to do that when they can simply just change your rate without cause.


I can give you two reasons. One is misdirection. Your insurance company drops you they deactivate you for having no insurance, your anger gets misdirected towards the insurance company. The second is simple, because they can.


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## rtaatl

Lone-Wolf said:


> Another poster earlier said Uber is probably calling insurance companies to verify that drivers have commercial insurance b/c they are subject to big time lawsuits if a driver only has personal insurance and there is an accident where pax are hurt. In that case the insurance co. would deny any responsibility and would be free from any liability b/c the driver was violating his/her policy by driving for Uber/Lyft. In that case the injured passengers would sue to driver and Uber for big money.
> 
> So Uber, to shield itself from lawsuits is ratting out drivers who don't have commercial insurance. I don't have proof of this but it makes the most sense. Uber doesn't want to be sued by pax for millions b/c drivers have only personal insurance.


So basically, like many of us in the transportation business have stated, the Uber blanket policy is BS. Their X drivers can't afford real commercial liability....don't think those so called "rideshare" coverages for $30/month is going to cover it. That's not the same as passenger liability. Looks like too much pushback from local government and regulators is starting to take shape.


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## ABC123DEF

Lone-Wolf said:


> Another poster earlier said Uber is probably calling insurance companies to verify that drivers have commercial insurance b/c they are subject to big time lawsuits if a driver only has personal insurance and there is an accident where pax are hurt. In that case the insurance co. would deny any responsibility and would be free from any liability b/c the driver was violating his/her policy by driving for Uber/Lyft. In that case the injured passengers would sue to driver and Uber for big money.
> 
> So Uber, to shield itself from lawsuits is ratting out drivers who don't have commercial insurance. I don't have proof of this but it makes the most sense. Uber doesn't want to be sued by pax for millions b/c drivers have only personal insurance.


Uber knew all of this in the beginning of the game. It would have been so much easier for them and for all of us to do the right thing. Treat drivers like human beings, pay fair wages, take care of insurance issues, cap drivers. Sometimes growing too fast is not good. Many companies that are big today took many decades to become profitable.


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## Lone-Wolf

KevinH said:


> \
> This is an extremely important development. I believe that this is the first U.S. instance where the driver's personal policy is required to be aware of TNC use. How did you find out that they are calling insurance companies? Is there a chance that the carriers are using the public ID information available for licensed TNC drivers? How do we know if the insurance company or Uber is the one taking the initiative


I don't have any proof that Uber is informing insurance companies. I just know that the two possibilites that make the most sense are either:

1. Insurance companies have employees use Uber/Lyft and then cross reference the driver's license plate info with their customer database and then canceling anyone that comes up or

2. As stated in the Driver agreement/addendum that was updated on Dec. 10th I think, Uber stated that they have the right to give any driver's information to insurance companies to insure that they aren't doing anything illegal or against the insurance company's rules, and they have the right to give info to insurance companies so they don't get sued for any accidents or pax injuries.

Those are the only two logical reasons I can think of for why/how GEICO found out.


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## rtaatl

ABC123DEF said:


> Uber knew all of this in the beginning of the game. It would have been so much easier for them and for all of us to do the right thing. Treat drivers like human beings, pay fair wages, take care of insurance issues, cap drivers. Sometimes growing too fast is not good. Many companies that are big today took many decades to become profitable.


Well Uber knew what they were doing is technically illegal and wanted to get around it by calling everyone independent contractors. Now that there's pushback from regulators they're throwing their hands up saying they did nothing wrong and trying to blame drivers for being so "illegal".


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## ABC123DEF

What an utter and complete mess this is. Oh yeah...I'm not supposed to be negative.


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## Lone-Wolf

rtaatl said:


> But the question is Lone-Wolf why is Uber calling out drivers and denying passenger claims if they themselves state there's an umbrella $1M policy when a passenger is in the vehicle. There's more going on that they are not telling us. Looks like this company is starting to bleed.


If they shift all the legal/financial responsibility of accidents onto driver's commercial policies then they won't ever have to use their $1M umbrella policy and their insurance rates go down. I'm sure an $1M umbrella policy on every Uber driver out there is pretty expensive.

Its just another way for this evil company to shift the costs of running a business onto us the drivers - gas, insurance, maintenance/repairs etc. etc. Unlike other transportation companies that cover those things for their drivers like taxis, limo companies, UPS, Fedex, trucking companies, city bus drivers etc. etc.


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## Lone-Wolf

ABC123DEF said:


> What an utter and complete mess this is. Oh yeah...I'm not supposed to be negative.


Tell me about it. I'm now forced to quit driving and go back and apply for the shitty job I had before that pays about $15/hr.


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## rtaatl

Lone-Wolf said:


> If they shift all the legal/financial responsibility of accidents onto driver's commercial policies then they won't ever have to use their $1M umbrella policy and their insurance rates go down. I'm sure an $1M umbrella policy on every Uber driver out there is pretty expensive.
> 
> Its just another way for this evil company to shift the costs of running a business onto us the drivers - gas, insurance, maintenance/repairs etc. etc. Unlike other transportation companies that cover those things for their drivers like taxis, limo companies, UPS, Fedex, trucking companies, city bus drivers etc. etc.


But what Uber doesn't understand is that there will be no drivers left. It is literally impossible to pay real commercial insurance and have anything left over at $1/mile. This company knows so little about the transportation business they're laughable. Just like the pipe dream of driverless cars taking over the roads in a few years. I hope they keep believing that one too...and even if they did (which of course it won't happen) Uber has no skillet to manage or maintain them.


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## ABC123DEF

rtaatl said:


> But what Uber doesn't understand is that there will be no drivers left. It is literally impossible to pay real commercial insurance and have anything left over at $1/mile. This company knows so little about the transportation business they're laughable. Just like the pipe dream of driverless cars taking over the roads in a few years. I hope they keep believing that one too...and even if they did (which of course it won't happen) Uber has no skillet to manage or maintain them.


Yes...great a concept (that Kalanick stole from what I understand)...but Uber has no clue how to run this thing. Maybe a better way would have been for someone to try to sell the software to existing transportation companies as a technical dispatch.


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## rtaatl

Lone-Wolf said:


> Yup, rtaatl, you're right. They are calling insurance companies to verify that we have commercial insurance and not just personal since an insurance company will deny a claim and not pay out to injured passengers in an accident if they find out the driver doesn't have commercial. In that case an injured pax might sue the driver and/or Uber so they are ratting drivers out to protect against lawsuits. Now it all makes sense.


Thinking about it for a minute I bet they're being forced to do this and it's not voluntary. Like I said, this company is starting to bleed from regulation cracking down...at least in my opinion.


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## rtaatl

ABC123DEF said:


> Yes...great a concept (that Kalanick stole from what I understand)...but Uber has no clue how to run this thing. Maybe a better way would have been for someone to try to sell the software to existing transportation companies as a technical dispatch.


That's exactly how they started with Uber black as the original purpose. To give real limo operators with their own licensure and insurance something to do in their downtime. Then they got greedy with the introduction of UberX. That's when there was no way to make things cheaper than to bring on unlicensed and uninsured drivers. Uber thought they could just make things up because they can. Guess that's starting to change.


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## raquela2020

There is NO insurance that I can buy and drive Uberx in my state. It doesn't make any sense that they would be calling to verify insurance on drivers. And yes, I have had Geico for over 10 years....I just get more concerned and confused when it comes to insurance issues.


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## Lone-Wolf

raquela2020 said:


> There is NO insurance that I can buy and drive Uberx in my state. It doesn't make any sense that they would be calling to verify insurance on drivers. And yes, I have had Geico for over 10 years....I just get more concerned and confused when it comes to insurance issues.


It makes sense if pax are suing Uber for damages in an accident where the driver only has personal insurance and that insurance company denies any claim and doesn't pay for any injuries. Or if Uber is paying very high premiums and large deductibles for their umbrella insurance policy and if their rates for that umbrella policy are going up b/c their insurance company is paying out a lot of money for claims.

This is a big hole in their business model. They are trying to run a business that shifts all the costs onto the drivers so the only costs they have to pay for is some employees to design an app, money for expansion into new markets, probably a lot of lawyers and some lavish executive salaries.


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## Patriot Rider

I have 5 vehicles on my insurance policy, along with my homeowners and boat insurance through the same carrier. Just to be sure I wouldn't end up getting screwed over by Uber after it became apparent they were going to start calling insurance companies, I dropped my one car I Uber with and put on a separate policy all by itself through a different carrier. I didn't want a part time low paying gig to end up causing me problems with my main carrier. Now if this company drops me, I will just go to another....there are plenty of insurance companies out there.


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## uberdriver

Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."


Insurance companies have been cheated all this time by the Uber system, but they are starting to catch up. You were paying only $900/yr because that is the average premium needed to cover the private driving that you were supposed to be doing in accordance to your insurance policy contract. But you have surreptitiously been doing a type of driving that warrants multiple times that premium to cover the respective risk.

There is a reason that commercial driving policies cost multiple times what you have been paying: the financial risk of carrying passengers for pay is much much higher. What the letter that you received essentially boils down to is that GEICO has found out that you were cheating them and has decided to put an end to it.


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## Lone-Wolf

Patriot Rider said:


> I have 5 vehicles on my insurance policy, along with my homeowners and boat insurance through the same carrier. Just to be sure I wouldn't end up getting screwed over by Uber after it became apparent they were going to start calling insurance companies, I dropped my one car I Uber with and put on a separate policy all by itself through a different carrier. I didn't want a part time low paying gig to end up causing me problems with my main carrier. Now if this company drops me, I will just go to another....there are plenty of insurance companies out there.


You think insurance companies don't share information or have some giant database they all use? The big 3 credit score companies (TransUnion, Experian, I forget the 3rd one) compile a lot more information on you than just your credit score.

I called a couple companies after my GEICO policy was cancelled and what do you know they already knew the make, model and VIN# of my car before I even told them.


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## Lone-Wolf

uberdriver said:


> Insurance companies have been cheated all this time by the Uber system, but they are starting to catch up. You were paying only $900/yr because that is the average premium needed to cover the private driving that you were supposed to be doing in accordance to your insurance policy contract. But you have surreptitiously been doing a type of driving that warrants multiple times that premium to cover the respective risk.
> 
> There is a reason that commercial driving policies cost multiple times what you have been paying: the financial risk of carrying passengers for pay is much much higher. What the letter that you received essentially boils down to is that GEICO has found out that you were cheating them and has decided to put an end to it.


Yeah, I know how insurance works.

The point of my post was that Uber has known this all along that probably at least 80% of drivers only have a personal policy and don't make enough money doing Uber to afford a commercial policy.

Just another example of how Uber is screwing over drivers. They don't give a rat's ass about drivers.


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## Luberon

The ideal uberX driver is a recent immigrant with very few assets and a shitty 9 year old car. No assets for insurance claims and ready to work for next to nothing


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## ATX 22

Lone-Wolf said:


> Yeah, I know how insurance works.
> 
> The point of my post was that Uber has known this all along that probably at least 80% of drivers only have a personal policy and don't make enough money doing Uber to afford a commercial policy.
> 
> Just another example of how Uber is screwing over drivers. They don't give a rat's ass about drivers.


It was all in the agreement we signed with uber. An independent contractor does his homework and figures his liability and profit potential prior to starting any work. Profits can be tight, but if your liabilities aren't covered you should always know when not to do something. Just because uber says they have your back doesn't mean they won't be the first to put the knife there.


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## ABC123DEF

ATX 22 said:


> It was all in the agreement we signed with uber. An independent contractor does his homework and figures his liability and profit potential prior to starting any work. Profits can be tight, but if your liabilities aren't covered you should always know when not to do something. Just because uber says they have your back doesn't mean they won't be the first to put the knife there.


Ouch...the truth hurts. *sighs*


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## observer

ATX 22 said:


> It was all in the agreement we signed with uber. An independent contractor does his homework and figures his liability and profit potential prior to starting any work. Profits can be tight, but if your liabilities aren't covered you should always know when not to do something. Just because uber says they have your back doesn't mean they won't be the first to put the knife there.


Independent contractors run their businesses. I don't think ubering is truely a business.


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## ATX 22

Good point. 
They also negotiate their rates.


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## observer

ATX 22 said:


> Good point.
> They also negotiate their rates.


To me a business is something you build.

With a little luck, a lot of sweat and perseverance, you can make a comfortable living.

When you want to cash out your business, you sell it.

Try selling your uber business.


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## observer

I mean, even gardeners sell their routes when they retire or decide to do something else.

Around here routes go for 2.5-3.5 x gross monthly sales.

True businesses can be bought and sold.


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## Another Uber Driver

McLovin said:


> Are you going to stay active or did you just not tell Progressive?


Keep in mind that this is hearsay, only. I have nothing in writing from Progressive to back up this. Others have posted similar on these boards. Supposedly, as long as your rideshare mileage is forty-nine per-cent, or less, of your total mileage, they do not care if you do rideshare. They will not pay if you are logged onto a rideshare application and hit something. Supposedly, they will pay if you hit something and are not logged on to a rideshare application. Supposedly, they will not drop you if your rideshare mileage is forty-nine per-cent, or less. On another topic, a poster stated that Progrressive had told him that it does not cover for rideshare nor does it offer any policies anywhere that do. His statement is not inconsistent with the rumour that I have read and heard. If you are logged in, Progressive is not covering. If you _*ain't*_, Progressive is.



observer said:


> Interesting, I wonder how they found out.


Does Austin require TNC drivers to have a licence? Their vehicles? If so, the information could be posted somewhere that insurance companies can access it.

Someone suggested that there might be some spying going on. Insurance companies have been known to do that. They send someone to photograph or simply look at the car. They see the "trade dress" and you are *B-u-U-U-U-U-ssssted! * It could be Uber's contacting them to verify a policy.



rtaatl said:


> Uber This company knows so little about the transportation business


.......and is not interested in hearing from anyone who does..........................



Lone-Wolf said:


> The big 3 credit score companies (TransUnion, Experian, I forget the 3rd one) compile a lot more information on you than just your credit score.
> 
> I called a couple companies after my GEICO policy was cancelled and what do you know they already knew the make, model and VIN# of my car before I even told them.


Equifax.

I have little doubt that insurance companies share information. There are databases in some states to which admitted insurance companies have access. It would not surprise me to learn that for some consderation, non admitted companies can get information that they want through admitted companies.

Do you have facebook or other social media? Have you posted anything on your doing ridesahre? Investigators do scan those things.


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## sfthatsme

gman said:


> By all accounts Geico appear to be real pricks.


I am not trying to start the argument but I am curious what's your reasoning to say this?


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## 20yearsdriving

gman said:


> By all accounts Geico appear to be real pricks.


Insurance Pricks VS scoundrel drivers


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## 20yearsdriving

sfthatsme said:


> I am not trying to start the argument but I am curious what's your reasoning to say this?


There is none


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## ClevelandUberRider

ATX 22 said:


> Uber ratted you out when they called to verify your policy


Always do things only the legal, legit way. That's the best defense you can have.

For TNC driving, this means informing your personal auto insurance company about your plan to to TNC driving. Depending on your planned hours of driving in the coming months / year, you will be adviced by them whether to go for a hybrid policy or even a commercial one.

Driving passengers for fares, whether those fares turn out to be net income or net loss, means one is conducting a business. So, at least a hybrid policy (a combination of personal and commercial use) is needed. If one drives 40 or more hours, it should be argued that the driver is conducting a FT business thus commercial insurance is called for.

Whether a driver is able to get away with not informing their personal auto insurance company about their TNC driving work is besides the point. It is the right thing to do.

Sure, it will increase a driver's costs of doing business by up to several thousand dollars a year, but if some drivers are honest with their auto insurer and some are not, then effectively there is a slight transfer of wealth between the two groups because the market equilibrium prices of rides fall somewhere between the prices if every driver lie to their insurer and the prices if every driver is honest with their auto insurer.

Plus, drivers' not informing their personal auto insurer about this means there is an offloading of liability from TNCs' shoulders to those of the drivers.


----------



## Tim In Cleveland

Lone-Wolf said:


> I'm going to have to cancel Progressive too since they don't cover rideshare. My policy doesn't start until February. I am calling around to companies that do provide rideshare insurance in TX - Allstate, GEICO, Metlife and Farmers.
> 
> So after calling a few places my insurance would go up from $900/yr for personal to about $2,700-$3,000/yr. Looks like its time to go back to my shitty old job until I finish going back to school.


Esurance knows I do rideshare and don't care. They will refuse any claim that happens when the app is on, as they should. States are specifically excluding insurance companies from having to cover ridesharing so the ball will be completely in Uber's court to provide coverage.
You shouldn't need a commercial policy for Uber X. You have coverage from App On until App Off through their James Rivers policy. States are also telling Uber that claims do NOT have to be first turned down by your personal insurance before they have to cover. Uber is losing on almost every point they get challenged in court on.


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

Great to hear about this. Thanks Tim.


----------



## jaydeedub85

Mileage on your car, they can check your VIN against databases especially if your going to Jiffy lube or the dealer for maintenance, 

Leaving your Uber or Lyft emblem on your car while parked in your neighborhood. All it takes is a claim adjuster checking out a neighbors car who was in an accident to see that and make note of it.


----------



## IckyDoody

Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."
> 
> My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?
> 
> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


Did you by chance opt in to receiving your 1099 electronically?


----------



## rtaatl

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Always do things only the legal, legit way. That's the best defense you can have.
> 
> For TNC driving, this means informing your personal auto insurance company about your plan to to TNC driving. Depending on your planned hours of driving in the coming months / year, you will be adviced by them whether to go for a hybrid policy or even a commercial one.
> 
> Driving passengers for fares, whether those fares turn out to be net income or net loss, means one is conducting a business. So, at least a hybrid policy (a combination of personal and commercial use) is needed. If one drives 40 or more hours, it should be argued that the driver is conducting a FT business thus commercial insurance is called for.
> 
> Whether a driver is able to get away with not informing their personal auto insurance company about their TNC driving work is besides the point. It is the right thing to do.
> 
> Sure, it will increase a driver's costs of doing business by up to several thousand dollars a year, but if some drivers are honest with their auto insurer and some are not, then effectively there is a slight transfer of wealth between the two groups because the market equilibrium prices of rides fall somewhere between the prices if every driver lie to their insurer and the prices if every driver is honest with their auto insurer.
> 
> Plus, drivers' not informing their personal auto insurer about this means there is an offloading of liability from TNCs' shoulders to those of the drivers.


In a perfect world this makes sense, but since the inception of UberX the "legal way" has been a grey area. Uber wanted cheaper fares with no regulations so they worded drivers as contractors. Even though they had no licensure or insurance. They figure "Hey, it's just driving...how hard or professional can it be", and a lot of regulators bent over backwards for them because all they saw upfront were the cheap fares. Now that problems have surfaced these regulators are having to step back and set rules. UberX drivers in most cities are not transportation providers at all. These drivers don't know any better and how could they...especially if at the time every municipality is allowing them on the road. UberX drivers don't have a business. They have no way of expanding their business or setting fares because there's no proper credentials (in most cities). There's no equilibrium of wealth, drivers nor insurance companies can't dictate prices, Uber does. They apparently are balking at their own blanket commercial policy with this new addendum so in essence they've been lying the whole time to everyone about what and who is actually covered. I can't blame the drivers on this one. This company should be severely punished.


----------



## UberCemetery

Lone-Wolf said:


> You think insurance companies don't share information or have some giant database they all use? The big 3 credit score companies (TransUnion, Experian, I forget the 3rd one) compile a lot more information on you than just your credit score.


You are 100% correct Big Brother is watching. I have driven these credit score executives - over the years and they tell me that they have all this other info also. When you even go to the grocery store and let them swipe your Loyalty card they have that info also because the grocery store chains sell it to them. So they know if you drink beer, whiskey, milk, or orange juice. When you register you car with the state you live in, they know what kind of car you have, that database is spread around. Have you ever listened to a police scanner you get pulled over they have all kinds of info on who you are, just by your license plate, drivers license and vin.

Take a look at this link. The Federal Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA) allows companies to buy this info. There is all kinds of informative info on this link.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...on/big-brother-is-watching/overview/index.htm


----------



## UberCemetery

Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."
> 
> My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?
> 
> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


Geico offers ride share insurance in TX and these other states currently.

*Where is Geico Ridesharing Insurance available?*
Per the Geico website - We are working as fast as possible to provide Ridesharing Insurance in as many places as we can. Currently, we offer this coverage in:

CT, GA, MD, OH, PA, SC, TX, and VA.


----------



## observer

jaydeedub85 said:


> Mileage on your car, they can check your VIN against databases especially if your going to Jiffy lube or the dealer for maintenance,
> 
> Leaving your Uber or Lyft emblem on your car while parked in your neighborhood. All it takes is a claim adjuster checking out a neighbors car who was in an accident to see that and make note of it.


Smog checks in CA record mileage too.


----------



## Adbam

I wonder if this has something to do with this...

https://uberpeople.net/threads/texa...g-for-insurance-to-comply-with-new-law.52884/


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Never contact your insurance company and ask. Google it and you'll get the same answer. There is a thread with a good list of states that either are fully covered by Super, OH and NC or offer TNC gap coverage. The TNC gap coverage is under $10 a month. The insurance companies do talk to each other. I'm sure they are too busy to send fraud investigators to Super drivers. You are screwed and not fully covered if you're not in these states and get in an accident and now I guess you're screwed if they find out. I think its time a Mod pins a post with that list. Thanks!


----------



## rtaatl

Reading that new adendum, it's asking for commercial insurance and rideshare insurance doesn't appear to cut it. Sounds like Uber is balking at their own commercial policy and ratting out drivers for not having it themselves...which they can't afford at these rates. If this is the case look for this company to self implode or model X after NYC with their fare structure and regulations. If they kill X all together and go back to their original business plan of being an app for limo operators they'd probably save face, but I I suspect they're too cocky to concede doing that.


----------



## GooberX

rtaatl said:


> That's exactly how they started with Uber black as the original purpose. To give real limo operators with their own licensure and insurance something to do in their downtime. Then they got greedy with the introduction of UberX. That's when there was no way to make things cheaper than to bring on unlicensed and uninsured drivers. Uber thought they could just make things up because they can. Guess that's starting to change.


BINGO.

Greed is good, until it isn't.


----------



## GooberX

rtaatl said:


> Reading that new adendum, it's asking for commercial insurance and rideshare insurance doesn't appear to cut it. Sounds like Uber is balking at their own commercial policy and ratting out drivers for not having it themselves...which they can't afford at these rates. If this is the case look for this company to self implode or model X after NYC with their fare structure and regulations. If they kill X all together and go back to their original business plan of being an app for limo operators they'd probably save face, but I I suspect they're too cocky to concede doing that.


If they want to survive, they will.

When I started, I drove a TCP Prius, so even UberX had fully licensed cars until Uber lowered the rates so much licensed operators could no longer sustain them.


----------



## SEAL Team 5

Lone-Wolf said:


> Why would they do that? Doing that will reduce the number of drivers especially part timers since insurance companies will drop anyone immediately from a personal policy if they find that person is Ubering. That would ruin Uber's business model and their goal to have as many drivers on the road as possible.
> 
> I don't have an auto loan. Bought my car from my aunt and I'm paying her back monthly.


Because Uber's insurance company, James River is a B rated company. They probably handed Uber a $40 million premium when they found out Uber might be considered an employer. James River has a North Carolina post office box, but they're based in Bermuda. Their holdings are in securities rated worse than Junk Bonds. So, Crappy company + Crappy insurance = you're screwed. The insurance industry, which is valued at over $600 billion, has been around for almost 150 years. Uber's 4 years of existence is no match. The insurance companies are fed up with Uber and its unregulated tatics. The insurance companies set the standards, not the paid off politicians that Uber thinks. Many many more drivers will get booted coming real soon. In AZ, the new TNC laws go into effect on Mar 1, almost all drivers will have to get commercial insurance or quit driving. In AZ, if you get caught commercial driving without proper insurance you get a criminal driving ticket. You go to jail and your vehicle impounded. Uber gets no more free rides. Uber is not above the law.


----------



## GooberX

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Because Uber's insurance company, James River is a B rated company. They probably handed Uber a $40 million premium when they found out Uber might be considered an employer. James River has a North Carolina post office box, but they're based in Bermuda. Their holdings are in securities rated worse than Junk Bonds. So, Crappy company + Crappy insurance = you're screwed. The insurance industry, which is valued at over $600 billion, has been around for almost 150 years. Uber's 4 years of existence is no match. The insurance companies are fed up with Uber and its unregulated tatics. The insurance companies set the standards, not the paid off politicians that Uber thinks. Many many more drivers will get booted coming real soon. In AZ, the new TNC laws go into effect on Mar 1, almost all drivers will have to get commercial insurance or quit driving. In AZ, if you get caught commercial driving without proper insurance you get a criminal driving ticket. You go to jail and your vehicle impounded. Uber gets no more free rides. Uber is not above the law.


Mozart never sounded as good as the music to my ears above.

I've been saying it's coming for over a year, but damn it took forever.


----------



## SEAL Team 5

rtaatl said:


> And what I can already tell you is that there is no way UberX drivers are going to be able to afford a real commercial liability policy that runs at least $2500 a year. Not to mention in most states you won't even be allowed to purchase it because, unlike what Uber wants you to believe, you're not really an independent contractor because X drivers are not licensed carriers in most states. They're saying all these things to cover themselves, yet have no idea how the laws apply from state to state. The drivers are really getting hung out to dry on this one. Regulation appears to be coming and there's no way .75/mile is going to cover it. Now everyone will see why transportation providers charge the rates they do.


I appreciate your last line, "now everyone will see why transportation providers charge the rates they do". As an owner of a transportation company for over 14 years, I was wondering how long this was going to take. As a public service provider, we open ourselves up to many and big lawsuits. America is a sue happy country, just look at the lawyer section in your Yellow Pages. The average commercial policy cost about 10x the average personal policy. But you must have it. My company is paying $16,400 more this year then we did last year, and that's with a zero claim loss. Uber's business in AZ (my state) has much to do with the premium increase. I had to fire one of my drivers because he got 1 speeding ticket last year. I do very much appreciate that you did notice that. After 14 years of operations, I do have a pretty good knowledge of operational cost. I'm thankful fuel is down this year. Bottom line, you need $2.50 per mile to operate successfully. I honestly think Uber will never understand this.


----------



## Fuzzy1

It doesn't really matter how they found out. I'm not siding with insurance companies but they do have a right to know how you use your vehicle. Especially if you are "trying" to make money putting miles on your car with passengers. Whatever you paying is not enough to pay for the associated risk. I can't blame the insurance companies at all.


----------



## soupergloo

Great .. my rate was already outrageous with Progressive after they found out I was a rideshare driving when I got into an accident during a Lyft ride, and I switched to Geico last month, and after reading this thread, it sounds like it's just a matter of time I'll be in the market for another insurance company.


----------



## Coachman

soupergloo said:


> Great .. my rate was already outrageous with Progressive after they found out I was a rideshare driving when I got into an accident during a Lyft ride, and I switched to Geico last month, and after reading this thread, it sounds like it's just a matter of time I'll be in the market for another insurance company.


Did you tell Geico about the ridesharing?


----------



## soupergloo

Coachman said:


> Did you tell Geico about the ridesharing?


Nope .. I wish I would have never told Progressive about it. Maybe I don't know enough about it, but from my understanding you're not covered by your insurance provider while your apps are on, correct? That's when Lyft & Uber's insurance comes into play. If that's the case, why do they need to know?! They can't do anything for you should you get into an accident during a ride or while the app is on ..


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

soupergloo said:


> Nope .. I wish I would have never told Progressive about it. Maybe I don't know enough about it, but from my understanding you're not covered by your insurance provider while your apps are on, correct? That's when Lyft & Uber's insurance comes into play. If that's the case, why do they need to know?! They can't do anything for you should you get into an accident during a ride or while the app is on ..


Geico has hybrid policies for TNC PT drivers in certain states, including Ohio.


----------



## Novus Caesar

USAA states that they offer an add on for Lyft and Uber in some states. I have not called them.

"If you're a USAA-insured driver thinking about working for a TNC, you should know you are not covered by your personal auto policy during the unmatched phase of the ride-sharing process.

USAA now offers this gap coverage for drivers in certain states. USAA members interested in obtaining ridesharing coverage can learn more by calling 1-800-531-8722."


----------



## Another Uber Driver

soupergloo said:


> you're not covered by your insurance provider while your apps are on, correct? That's when Lyft & Uber's insurance comes into play. If that's the case, why do they need to know?!


If you are carrying passengers for compensation, you are driving more miles than usual. This increases the liklihood of an at-fault collision. If you have an at-fault collision, you are responsible for the loss. Something that increases the liklihood of a loss is called a "hazard". Insurers either charge extra to insure a risk where a hazard is present or refuse to insure it, at all.

This is why your insurer cares if you are doing TNC work. There is nothing to predict when the loss will occur. You can not predict if the loss will occur logged on or logged off. If the odds catch up to you while logged off, your insurer could have to cover the loss.

In some jurisdictions, insurers choose to assume the risk. They charge extra for the risk because of the presence of the hazard, the increased miles driven. They add an endorsement to your policy that covers the "gap", provides secondary coverage if James River does not respond and states that they will not drop you for doing TNC work. The endorsement cost money. This is how the insurance company deals with the increased liklihood of its having to pay for a loss. It collects the money to do that.

This is insurance 101. You have a risk. You rate a risk. You collect accordingly. You discover a hazard, by whatever means. You take one of three courses:

A. You ignore it (dumb, and likely to get you a fiduciary breach action if you are Senior Management or A Director that votes with the majority to allow the hazard).

B. You refuse to insure it further.

C. You agree to insure it, but for added cost.


----------



## Hanrahan

I guess everytime I see a driver who doesn't have the proper license plate I guess I may have to slam ob the brakes and get rear ended by an Uber. Let them sweat it out for operating a car illegally and putting their passengers at risk. Uber on.


----------



## Novus Caesar

Hanrahan said:


> I guess everytime I see a driver who doesn't have the proper license plate I guess I may have to slam ob the brakes and get rear ended by an Uber. Let them sweat it out for operating a car illegally and putting their passengers at risk. Uber on.


I work in two states and neither requires a special license plate. Only one of the two requires that I display an uber sticker on my windshield. As for insurance, as some have discussed, it is available from some carriers.


----------



## Novus Caesar

Hanrahan said:


> I guess everytime I see a driver who doesn't have the proper license plate I guess I may have to slam ob the brakes and get rear ended by an Uber. Let them sweat it out for operating a car illegally and putting their passengers at risk. Uber on.


And the passengers are covered by uber's insurance. The grey area is when you start driving for uber with the app on but no passenger.


----------



## UberLaLa

Lone-Wolf said:


> Why would they do that? Doing that will reduce the number of drivers especially part timers since insurance companies will drop anyone immediately from a personal policy if they find that person is Ubering. That would ruin Uber's business model and their goal to have as many drivers on the road as possible.
> 
> I don't have an auto loan. *Bought my car from my aunt* and I'm paying her back monthly.


Your aunt ratted you out!

j/k...

I'm guessing courts might be making Uber 'confirm' personal auto insurance now.


----------



## HollyD

Lone-Wolf said:


> Tell me about it. I'm now forced to quit driving and go back and apply for the shitty job I had before that pays about $15/hr.


With the date cuts, 15 per hour is now probably more than you made with Uber.


----------



## Archie8616

If your a military veteran, USAA has the rideshare gap insurance. If your not a military veteran, I believe Farmers has the Rideshare Gap insurance.


----------



## Laura Smith

Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."
> 
> My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?
> 
> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.





Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."
> 
> My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?
> 
> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


----------



## Laura Smith

Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."
> 
> My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?
> 
> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


 I've been with Geico 26 years, but when I emailed to ask if they had a rideshare policy, they wouldn't even answer unless I told them if I drove for ridesharing and when I started. I got Farmers in CO as a result and I actually saved $200.


----------



## rtaatl

I don't believe this rideshare insurance is going to cut it. Uber seems to be balking at their own commercial policy and asking drivers to fit the bill for it by requiring them to get their own. Can't wait to see how this plays out.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Archie8616 said:


> If your a military veteran, USAA has the rideshare gap insurance. If your not a military veteran, I believe Farmers has the Rideshare Gap insurance.


USAA offers the TNC gap policy, in some states and it is available to anyone. They offer a discount to those who serve and work for the government.


----------



## ADX

I've gotten into 2 accidents(with basically 0 damage) during period one, when Geico asked me if this car has ever been used like a Uber/Taxi, I said yes. 1 year so far and I paid 110/mo, but next month they're doubling my rate LOL. I'm gonna switch to farmers/ mercury because they're a little price but at least I'll be legal


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

ADX said:


> I've gotten into 2 accidents(with basically 0 damage) during period one, when Geico asked me if this car has ever been used like a Uber/Taxi, I said yes. 1 year so far and I paid 110/mo, but next month they're doubling my rate LOL. I'm gonna switch to farmers/ mercury because they're a little price but at least I'll be legal


Correct me if my thinking is wrong: I have always thought that for safe drivers, GEICO is generally the one with the lowest rate.

About $300-$400 per year per $10K car in premium for comprehensive, collission, everything in (I am not a car insurance expert, I just know that if anything happens, car stolen, accident of whoever fault, etc., I am covered and will be paid). That was personal use rate, at the present, as I have not started TNC gig yet.


----------



## ABC123DEF

My advice would be NOT to start the TNC gig. There's just too much hassle and risk for too little reward. Uber could have done a much better job of making sure that ALL drivers were insured properly on the front end.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Correct me if my thinking is wrong: I have always thought that for safe drivers, GEICO is generally the one with the lowest rate.
> 
> About $300-$400 per year per $10K car in premium for comprehensive, collission, everything in (I am not a car insurance expert, I just know that if anything happens, car stolen, accident of whoever fault, etc., I am covered and will be paid). That was personal use rate, at the present, as I have not started TNC gig yet.


They definitely want you to believe that. They spend around 1B a year just on advertising alone. They hope you don't check, each year just like everything else.


----------



## KMANDERSON

Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."
> 
> My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?
> 
> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


Geieco has rideshare insurance.They should just told to get that instead of dropping you


----------



## ADX

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Correct me if my thinking is wrong: I have always thought that for safe drivers, GEICO is generally the one with the lowest rate.
> 
> About $300-$400 per year per $10K car in premium for comprehensive, collission, everything in (I am not a car insurance expert, I just know that if anything happens, car stolen, accident of whoever fault, etc., I am covered and will be paid). That was personal use rate, at the present, as I have not started TNC gig yet.


Maybe if you're in your 40s-60s.
I'm 25 and Geico was by far the cheapest, but now it's same price as every other company


----------



## ATX 22

KMANDERSON said:


> Geieco has rideshare insurance.They should just told to get that instead of dropping you


They didn't divulge the uber/lyft work, therefore they were in breach of contract with the insurer. Insurance companies don't play.


----------



## KMANDERSON

ATX 22 said:


> They didn't divulge the uber/lyft work, therefore they were in breach of contract with the insurer. Insurance companies don't play.


Yeah that why I decided to get the insurance.I worth it and it not much more expensive then full coverage


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

5 Star Guy said:


> They definitely want you to believe that. They spend around 1B a year just on advertising alone. They hope you don't check, each year just like everything else.


Yes, being a savvy consumer wannabe, I do check from time to time. I also found more than one insurers offering me lower rates for similar coverage if I switch from Geico to them. But I am also aware of the fact that what counts is the long run average rate, not the short-term rate they offer me to entice me to switch over to them ("teaser" rate they called it in the home mortgage market). I think to go over and then come back to Geico later is not as good as staying with Geico all the time (unless the differential is huge), because I think loyalty is rewarded along with good driving record with Geico (again, I may be wrong).


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

ADX said:


> Maybe if you're in your 40s-60s.
> I'm 25 and Geico was by far the cheapest, but now it's same price as every other company


Sure, years of safe driving record really helped. I am the type defensive drivers that if I see a road racer behind me tailgating me, I immediately try to get him (and it's usually a him!) off my back by doing, depending on how many lanes there are and traffic condition: change lanes, pull over, even drive into another smaller street or parking lot on my right and come back to the original street later.


----------



## Aga Muhlach

Lone-Wolf said:


> Tell me about it. I'm now forced to quit driving and go back and apply for the shitty job I had before that pays about $15/hr.


Pays better than Uber with no vehicle wear and tear.


----------



## observer

If for instance you live in the LBC and you get a fare from there to Santa Monica, you may turn off your app there to be unavailable so you can make your way back to the LBC to do other fares there.

If you had an accident on way to LBC, your personal insurance may be asked to cover the accident even though you were really repositioning your vehicle to get a fare.


----------



## Another Uber Driver

observer said:


> you may turn off your app there to be unavailable so you can make your way back to the LBC
> 
> If you had an accident on way to LBC, your personal insurance may be asked to cover the accident even though you were really repositioning your vehicle to get a fare.


My understanding is that you must be both *OFF LINE* and *Signed out*. If you are *OFF LINE*, only, but not *Signed out*, you are still considered to be in Period One, The Gap. This was why under my old policy, I made sure that I was both of the above. Now that I was able to purchase proper insurance, and have done so, I am not that careful,


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

observer said:


> If for instance you live in the LBC and you get a fare from there to Santa Monica, you may turn off your app there to be unavailable so you can make your way back to the LBC to do other fares there.
> 
> If you had an accident on way to LBC, your personal insurance may be asked to cover the accident even though you were really repositioning your vehicle to get a fare.


Yeah, that's a confounding part. When ready to start TNCDriving for the day, some, but not all, TNCDrivers do not turn on their TNCApp until they reach their first staging area of the day. Similarly, at the end of the day, an even smaller number of TNCDrivers turn off their DrivingApp when heading home.

For these drivers, they head out to their first staging area because of their TNCDriving gig, no doubt about it. Same thing when they come home after the last drop off, or calling it a night at their last staging area of the day after receiving no pings for awhile. The liability of those two segments of travel is assumed by their personal insurance carrier. However, the two segments occur only because of the TNCDrivers' TNCDriving. One can argue that sooner or later the economics of it will catch up and the liability will shift to the insurer presently covering the TNCDriving.

However, the personal insurer may also continue to cover those two segments for awhile or even forever, because it may be considered "commuting", just like W2Employees commuting to work daily with their personal auto insurer covering their commuting vehicle.

(Edited a typo.)


----------



## observer

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Yeah, that's a confounding part. When ready to start TNCDriving for the day, some, but not all, TNCDrivers do not turn on their TNCApp until they reach their first staging area of the day. Similarly, at the end of the day, an even smaller number of TNCDrivers turn off their DrivingApp when heading home.
> 
> For these drivers, they head out to their first staging area because of their TNCDriving gig, no doubt about it. Same thing when they come home after the last drop off, or calling it a night at their last staging area of the day after receiving no pings for awhile. The liability of those two segments of travel is assumed by their personal insurance carrier. However, the two segments occur only because of the TNCDrivers' TNCDriving. One can argue that sooner or later the economics of it will catch up and the liability will shift to the insurer presently covering the TNCDriving.
> 
> However, the personal insurer may also continue to cover those two segments for awhile or even forever, because it may be considered "commuting", just like W2Employees communizing to work daily with their personal auto insurer covering their commuting vehicle.


"The liability of those two segments of travel is assumed by their personal insurance carrier".

All insurance policies expressly exempt any part of TNC work in CA.

"The personal insurer "may" also continue to cover those two segments for awhile or even forever, because it "may" be considered commuting"

See above response to other quote.

Remember insurance companies will not pay out if they suspect you are doing TNC unless it is a TNC friendly company and are aware you TNC.

If in doubt ask your insurance company if you are covered or STAY ON THE APP UNTIL YOU GET HOME.


----------



## ZZY

gman said:


> By all accounts Geico appear to be real pricks.


Geico is stupid for cancelling a customer. They were collecting premiums and didn't have to pay out when Uber insurance was covering the driver.


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

observer said:


> "The liability of those two segments of travel is assumed by their personal insurance carrier".
> 
> All insurance policies expressly exempt any part of TNC work in CA.
> 
> "The personal insurer "may" also continue to cover those two segments for awhile or even forever, because it "may" be considered commuting"
> 
> See above response to other quote.
> 
> Remember insurance companies will not pay out if they suspect you are doing TNC unless it is a TNC friendly company and are aware you TNC.
> 
> If in doubt ask your insurance company if you are covered or STAY ON THE APP UNTIL YOU GET HOME.


Thank you.

So, during those two segments, if drivers are both OffLine and SignedOut, is the personal auto insurer going to pay out if they know drivers were heading to / coming back from, TNCDriving?


----------



## Another Uber Driver

ZZY said:


> Geico is stupid for cancelling a customer. They were collecting premiums and didn't have to pay out when Uber insurance was covering the driver.


Six pages were TL;DR, -eh?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Never contact your insurance company about TNC. Google it for your state to see if there is a new law or if you now have the TNC Gap policy available. Once you ask, my friend is thinking about it, you're screwed.


----------



## Frontier Guy

NEVER contact the insurance company directly about this coverage, especially if you are already with them, go through an independent agent, broker or web search. If you contact the company directly, they will document everything you say on the phone, so even inquiring about it raise a flag. I have Allstate for my personal coverage, beginning this next week they are supposed to start offering "gap" coverage for ridesharing drivers. From my understanding via my agent, it should be $15 to $30 additional per 6mo policy term. For grins, I recently contacted Farmers for a quote, including adding rideshare coverage, the online would not give me a quote, and the agent I spoke with the next day gave me a rate comparable to my Allstate rates. Also, if you use one of those devices that Allstate, Progressive and others offer, they will know quickly that you are driving for a rideshare service. I have one in each vehicle for Allstate, on one hand I see the extra miles I drive (which made it more interesting for calculating my miles for taxes), on the other it shows the screwy hours I drive when available.

Also, Geico, one of the biggest scumbag insurance companies going, "save 15% in 15 minutes" BS, I've never had a rate quote from them that lower than my existing policy, if anything it's typically 15% or more higher.


----------



## observer

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So, during those two segments, if drivers are both OffLine and SignedOut, is the personal auto insurer going to pay out if they know drivers were heading to / coming back from, TNCDriving?


They are sure going to try not to pay.

Especially if you hid the fact you drive for a TNC. How would they know you were going home and not to a different hot spot?

Insurance companies are in the business of recieving as much money from you as possible, and paying you back the least amount possible.


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

observer said:


> They are sure going to try not to pay.
> 
> Especially if you hid the fact you drive for a TNC. How would they know you were going home and not to a different hot spot?
> 
> Insurance companies are in the business of recieving as much money from you as possible, and paying you back the least amount possible.


Yes. It's all about profit-maximization. Just like individual TNC or cab drivers.

The only altruistic acts I have seen on this board are experienced drivers sharing their valuable knowledge, tips, and insights. Like yours. So thank you.


----------



## Whiteorchids

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So, during those two segments, if drivers are both OffLine and SignedOut, is the personal auto insurer going to pay out if they know drivers were heading to / coming back from, TNCDriving?


Where does it say you need to be signed out? I read you only needed to be offline.


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

Whiteorchids said:


> Where does it say you need to be signed out? I ready you only needed to be offline.


I was just responding to an experienced driver's advice and asking a question. I have not started driving for TNC myself. Maybe you can check the thread(s) and ask the relevant authority and/or experts on this.


----------



## SmokeyJonez

Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."
> 
> My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?
> 
> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


do you have your real name and that youre an Uber driver, posted somewhere on social media?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Now that many of know about this insurance issue, the only way to prove you are not online is to log off. You are guilty until proven innocent.


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

SmokeyJonez said:


> do you have your real name and that youre an Uber driver, posted somewhere on social media?


Check out some other threads on similar topics. I think some commentators mentioned that in some states the TNCs have to make their drivers' lists available if requested.

At any rate, in this world, with Moore's Law, over the years, the costs of obtaining information have decreased to a very minimal level. Therefore, it will be wise to assume that if you drive for any TNC, your personal auto insurance carrier either already know or will know about it very soon.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

rtaatl said:


> But the question is Lone-Wolf why is Uber calling out drivers and denying passenger claims if they themselves state there's an umbrella $1M policy when a passenger is in the vehicle. There's more going on that they are not telling us. Looks like this company is starting to bleed.


POST # 29/rtaatl: From your lips to
God's ears, Sir !
There is a Hyperlink that I will try to
find that features an Article with
Details of #[F]Uber LOSING BIG MONEY
over Q2 and Q3 2015.

Mentoring Bison: Notice$ $tuff like thi$.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

Lone-Wolf said:


> I'm going to have to cancel Progressive too since they don't cover rideshare. My policy doesn't start until February. I am calling around to companies that do provide rideshare insurance in TX - Allstate, GEICO, Metlife and Farmers.
> 
> So after calling a few places my insurance would go up from $900/yr for personal to about $2,700-$3,000/yr. Looks like its time to go back to my shitty old job until I finish going back to school.


POST # 24/Lone-Wolf : Do NOT Forget
that if you have ANY
Familial Connection to the Military,
then USAA....COULD...be the Least
Expen$ive Option.

Mentoring Bison: $aving Buck$ Matter$.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

ABC123DEF said:


> Uber knew all of this in the beginning of the game. It would have been so much easier for them and for all of us to do the right thing. Treat drivers like human beings, pay fair wages, take care of insurance issues, cap drivers. Sometimes growing too fast is not good. Many companies that are big today took many decades to become profitable.


POST # 33/Lone-Wolf: Because your
Signature Line
raises a Critical Issue regarding the
INHUMANE Treatment of It's Drivers,
it bears repetition of the Single Most
bit of PRO-#[F]Uber Propaganda dis-
guised as "Being Helpful".

What I refer to is the 20 FEB 2015 "Com-
plaints" Thread authored by, then de-
parting LIC, NY. "Ex-CSR...w/Equity" 
john djjjoe , 
who with Sneering Disdain berated the
UPNF Membership for being Incapable
of Understanding "Why Drivers' Welfare
Doesn't Matter" :

☆https://uberpeople.net/posts/187189

Notice how #AntiPersonnel LLC Employees
are Brainwashed into using the Term
"commodity" with a lower-case "c". Like
a Fresh Roll of Toilet Paper, you are Vital
to "Daily Busine$$". Afterwards...disgusting,
disposable and oh-so forgettable.

Mentoring Bison: Keeping. It. 100%. REAL!


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

ATX 22 said:


> It was all in the agreement we signed with uber. An independent contractor does his homework and figures his liability and profit potential prior to starting any work. Profits can be tight, but if your liabilities aren't covered you should always know when not to do something. Just because uber says they have your back doesn't mean they won't be the first to put the knife there.


POST # 50/@ATX22: E V E R Y B O D Y
needs to dwell for 
a Loooooooooong Moooooooment on
that Last Sentence of Your Post.

"Just because #[F]Uber says that it will
'have your back', DOESN'T mean that
they won't be the FIRST to stick a
KNIFE in there."

Mentoring Bison: Exquisite Non Sequitur!


----------



## ATX 22

Casuale Haberdasher, is this the article you were looking for? 
Losses over $600,000,000 in 2014 and over 950,000,000 in the first half of 2015. I haven't seen anything for quarters 3 & 4 of 2015 yet. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brianso...-even-bigger-losses/#2715e4857a0b4581ec2f5c99


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

ATX 22 said:


> Casuale Haberdasher, is this the article you were looking for?
> Losses over $600,000,000 in 2014 and over 950,000,000 in the first half of 2015. I haven't seen anything for quarters 3 & 4 of 2015 yet.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/brianso...-even-bigger-losses/#2715e4857a0b4581ec2f5c99


POST # 125/ATX 22 : Thank You for
A) The Correct Hyperlink
B) Correcting my "Quarters" Statement
C) Being You

Bison Admires.
Bison Inspires!


----------



## ATX 22

You're welcome, sir


----------



## Wdsniderman

Tim In Cleveland said:


> Esurance knows I do rideshare and don't care. They will refuse any claim that happens when the app is on, as they should. States are specifically excluding insurance companies from having to cover ridesharing so the ball will be completely in Uber's court to provide coverage.
> You shouldn't need a commercial policy for Uber X. You have coverage from App On until App Off through their James Rivers policy. States are also telling Uber that claims do NOT have to be first turned down by your personal insurance before they have to cover. Uber is losing on almost every point they get challenged in court on.


By "App on", I assume you mean "on and online, waiting for a ping". On and offline should be meaningless.


----------



## Another Uber Driver

Wdsniderman said:


> By "App on", I assume you mean "on and online, waiting for a ping". On and offline *should* be meaningless.


 (emphasis mine)

The boldfaced word is the operative word, here. As I have, through tireless effort and unstinting labour, achieved the Rank of Inspector in the Grammar Police, I could go into a long dissertation about the Conditional versus the Indicative and the meanings therein, but, as such likely would bore you, and, as such likely would exceed the character limit of this forum, I shall refrain, for the present, at least.

Perhaps it *should* be "meaningless", but it _*ain't*_.


----------



## Wdsniderman

Another Uber Driver said:


> (emphasis mine)
> 
> The boldfaced word is the operative word, here. As I have, through tireless effort and unstinting labour, achieved the Rank of Inspector in the Grammar Police, I could go into a long dissertation about the Conditional versus the Indicative and the meanings therein, but, as such likely would bore you, and, as such likely would exceed the character limit of this forum, I shall refrain, for the present, at least.
> 
> Perhaps it *should* be "meaningless", but it _*ain't*_.


Point well taken. On means on, and should means should. But doesn't it really boil down to what your definition if the word "is" is? Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## Another Uber Driver

Wdsniderman said:


> the


Was it Ol' Slick Willy who once asked someone to define the quoted word?


----------



## Tim In Cleveland

Wdsniderman said:


> By "App on", I assume you mean "on and online, waiting for a ping". On and offline should be meaningless.


I can't even define "On and Offline" except maybe when you start the app but don't push the "Go Online" button. App on means whenever you available to receive pings.


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

Tim In Cleveland said:


> I can't even define "On and Offline" except maybe when you start the app but don't push the "Go Online" button. App on means whenever you available to receive pings.


Yes, I think this is pretty much what most commentators on UP have in mind when they say "app-on"--the driver's app and the mobile device's Internet connection are such that the TNC is able to ping the driver using normal daily pinging algorithm (I say "normal" because any day, if they want to, Lyber can have their programmers put in some codes that can ping a sleeping app at the background).

Because, sometimes we hear drivers said they thought their app was on but they couldn't receive pings for some reason. Bad Internet connection for example. Or vice versa--sometimes drivers thought their app was not on but a ping came in still.

This is probably important because likely, these will affect both the PDB and the guarantees' requirements/criteria. For those requirements, I think the first paragraph's app-0n or on-app definition fit well.


----------



## mona mcN

It seem you guys got "ubered!"


----------



## ORT

Lone-Wolf said:


> I just received a letter saying they are not renewing insurance b/c my car "is used to carry passengers for hire or compensation."
> 
> My question is how did GEICO find out? I don't have any enemies that would rat me out. Is it possible that GEICO has employees use Uber/Lyft and get the license plate number thru the app then cross reference that info with their database of customers? How else would they have found out?
> 
> So I just signed up with Progressive for a much higher rate. Are they going to know too? Would not surprise me at all to know that insurance companies all share info or how a shared database with this info.


So let me get this straight, you are complaining because you where operating your car illegally, and did not possess the proper insurance to do FHV work, and your insurance company caught you and dumped you, OK, and yes progressive will also find out.


----------



## Frontier Guy

Just got the update from my Allstate agent today, Allstate's TNC Gap coverage policy is available as of 1/10/16 to Allstate customers, it fills in the gaps between your personal auto insurance and the Commercial Liability Coverage that the TNC's have in place. From all the stuff I read, it's $15 to $20/yr in addition to your regular insurance policy. I'll be calling my agent tomorrow to add it to my insurance.


----------



## Another Uber Driver

Frontier Guy said:


> Just got the update from my Allstate agent today, Allstate's TNC Gap coverage policy is available as of 1/10/16 to Allstate customers, it fills in the gaps between your personal auto insurance


Thank you for the update. Is this nationwide for Allstate or is it Colorado, only? ........or do you know?............or do you care? The other added advantage is that Allstate will not drop you for doing TNC work, as long as you purchase the endorsement, that is.


----------



## Frontier Guy

From what I was told, this is nationwide for Allstate, you have to go through an Allstate agent to get the coverage, they will not and cannot offer it if you go through the 800 number to establish a policy or to add it to an existing policy.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

mona mcN said:


> It seem you guys got "ubered!"


POST # 134 /mona mcN: "Ahoy!" and
Welcome to UP.Net Forums
from Tornado Warnings Lately Marco
Island, on Florida's Wild SSW Coast.

Thanks for joining in the Discussion
with a Humorous 1-liner. Humor IS
"The Best Medicine"...especially when
dealing with AntiChrist Candidate
Kakanicky and his Mind-Controlled
Minions.

Bison: Welcome-Wagoneering!


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

Frontier Guy said:


> Just got the update from my Allstate agent today, Allstate's TNC Gap coverage policy is available as of 1/10/16 to Allstate customers, it fills in the gaps between your personal auto insurance and the Commercial Liability Coverage that the TNC's have in place. From all the stuff I read, it's $15 to $20/yr in addition to your regular insurance policy. I'll be calling my agent tomorrow to add it to my insurance.


Now that is a good deal. Most hybrids cost much more than that.


----------



## Another Uber Driver

Frontier Guy said:


> From what I was told, this is nationwide for Allstate, you have to go through an Allstate agent to get the coverage, they will not and cannot offer it if you go through the 800 number to establish a policy or to add it to an existing policy.


Thank you for the update. If this is true, then TNC drivers can purchase the proper coverage anywhere Allstate is admitted. There you have it boys and girls, if you are not in any of the states listed, call your Allstate Agent and tell him that you want to be in "good hands" while you Uber or Lyft.

If the agent can not add it to an existing policy, perhaps he can cause the existing policy to be cancelled and re-written with Allstate. Most firms are allright with that in parallel situations. They are going to keep your money and keep you as a customer; all that you want is an upgrade for which you understand that you must pay extra.


----------



## mona mcN

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Now that is a good deal. Most hybrids cost much more than that.


Add a BMW, Uber will help you finance it. Wait, I forecast another drop in rate. To the wise people have some dignity and sense. Try to get other type of employment. Dont be a slave to Uber....Dont believe the sick hype...Uber is a fraud


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

If the rates are good, driving a year, fifteen months, doing 50,000 miles, won't be too bad. It has to be more than $2.00 per mile to make it work well though.


----------



## Hunt to Eat

gman said:


> By all accounts Geico appear to be real pricks.


I never trusted that smarmy farging gecko.


----------



## Hunt to Eat

Another Uber Driver said:


> Thank you for the update. If this is true, then TNC drivers can purchase the proper coverage anywhere Allstate is admitted. There you have it boys and girls, if you are not in any of the states listed, call your Allstate Agent and tell him that you want to be in "good hands" while you Uber or Lyft.
> 
> If the agent can not add it to an existing policy, perhaps he can cause the existing policy to be cancelled and re-written with Allstate. Most firms are allright with that in parallel situations. They are going to keep your money and keep you as a customer; all that you want is an upgrade for which you understand that you must pay extra.


I would never consider insuring with Allstate. They treated our family horribly when I was a kid. It'd be an affront to my father's memory for me to consider insuring with that ahole company.


----------



## Another Uber Driver

Hunt to Eat said:


> I would never consider insuring with Allstate. They treated our family horribly when I was a kid.


They did have a pretty bad reputation back in the day. I have not heard too much negative about them, of late. Still, if Allstate is the only carrier from which you can buy proper insurance.............................


----------



## Hunt to Eat

Another Uber Driver said:


> They did have a pretty bad reputation back in the day. I have not heard too much negative about them, of late. Still, if Allstate is the only carrier from which you can buy proper insurance.............................


I have had proper insurance since day one and have never even spoken to Allstate. I would sooner place tires around my car like a tugboat than call Allstate. Once bitten, twice shy.


----------



## Another Uber Driver

Hunt to Eat said:


> I have had proper insurance since day one and have never even spoken to Allstate.


Not everyone has had it or has it now. In some jurisdictions, drivers could not purchase it at all. Only since October, 2015 have I been able to purchase it. I live in the District of Columbia.


----------



## Hunt to Eat

Another Uber Driver said:


> Not everyone has had it or has it now. In some jurisdictions, drivers could not purchase it at all. Only since October, 2015 have I been able to purchase it. I live in the District of Columbia.


Commercial livery policies have been available in every state for decades.


----------



## Another Uber Driver

Hunt to Eat said:


> Commercial livery policies have been available in every state for decades.


The District of Columbia is not a state. Until recently, you could not purchase insurance for every type of vehicle that hauled passengers for compensation, here. You could not buy it here for a TNC vehicle. I tried to do it. No carrier wrote the policies. Much of it is due to an archaic body o f law that dealt with for-hire vehicle insurance. It was written in 1938. There have been few reviews of or changes to it since then. What is curious about it? I will start with a two week policy period.

Other posters, on different topics on this forum, have complained that they could not purchase commercial livery policies for their TNC vehicles in their state. As I do not live in those states, nor have I lived in many of them, I must take them at their word, as I am unfamiliar with the laws and business practices of insurers in those states.


----------



## Hunt to Eat

Another Uber Driver said:


> The District of Columbia is not a state. Until recently, you could not purchase insurance for every type of vehicle that hauled passengers for compensation, here. You could not buy it here for a TNC vehicle. I tried to do it. No carrier wrote the policies. Much of it is due to an archaic body o f law that dealt with for-hire vehicle insurance. It was written in 1938. There have been few reviews of or changes to it since then. What is curious about it? I will start with a two week policy period.
> 
> Other posters, on different topics on this forum, have complained that they could not purchase commercial livery policies for their TNC vehicles in their state. As I do not live in those states, nor have I lived in many of them, I must take them at their word, as I am unfamiliar with the laws and business practices of insurers in those states.


It occurs to us that a respectable, ethical company would have figured this out before unleashing tens of thousands of uninsured livery drivers upon the public thoroughfares.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

All of the rates I've seen for different carriers and states is $8-$20 per month, not year. Still a bargain considering you are not covered without that.


----------



## POMilton

8 pages of confusion over the insane liability one may or may not be taking on to run your car into the ground for close to minimum wage. Unreal.


----------



## ABC123DEF

Hunt to Eat said:


> It occurs to us that a respectable, ethical company would have figured this out before unleashing tens of thousands of uninsured livery drivers upon the public thoroughfares.


That would have been WAY too easy and made too much sense.


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

5 Star Guy said:


> All of the rates I've seen for different carriers and states is $8-$20 per month, not year. Still a bargain considering you are not covered without that.


$8 - $20 extra per month IS a great bargain, considering the litigious nature of our population in general and those who tend to take UberX or Lyft (cheapest ride options) tend to be (people who have nothing to do tend more willing and ready to get into a mud wrestling with others; having not much to their name, their ability to convince an attorney to take them is another matter; however, a lot of ambulance chasers type will gladly sign on a broke client when they hear $xx billion company Uber).


----------



## ClevelandUberRider

Let's say you are an insurer. Actuarial scientists deal with huge piles of data, so here assume a layman insurance exec answering just this simple question.

YOU (the insured car driver) in normal years drive 12,000 miles.

A. Coming year you are going to drive your grandmother from her condo to all her doctors, including her podiatrist and eye doctor, dentist, grocery shopping trips, running errands for her, driving her dogs to a dog park for a walk, etc. Increased driving: 1,200 miles.

B. Coming year you are going to drive for TNC, the cheapest options, UberX and Lyft. Increased driving: also 1,200 miles.

I know A doesn't have to tell the insurer (no need to, under most personal auto insurance policies), but just assume here that you are purely looking at these two very simplified increased driving of same mileage increase scenarios and purely judging which scenario carries higher increased risks (liability).

So, which one brings to the insurer higher liability that they will have to bear?

I think B brings on a much higher liability to the insurer.

Therefore, when B, increased mileage of 10% (increase of 1,200 miles added to the normal 12,000 miles of annual driving) adds only $20 roughly to (example) a $200 premium in the policy (also a 10% increase) it is arguably a very good deal. Furthermore, most TNC drivers drive many more miles than 1,200 miles per year!


----------



## Another Uber Driver

Hunt to Eat said:


> It occurs to us that a *respectable*, *ethical* company would have figured this out before unleashing tens of thousands of uninsured livery drivers upon the public thoroughfares.


 (emphasis mine)

Thank you, you just gave back to me my entire argument.........................


----------



## Frontier Guy

Hunt to Eat said:


> Commercial livery policies have been available in every state for decades.


On average $2,500 to $3,500 per vehicle


----------



## Hunt to Eat

Frontier Guy said:


> On average $2,500 to $3,500 per vehicle


Yes. That is correct. But they're bullet-proof policies. I have one.


----------



## rtaatl

Hunt to Eat said:


> Commercial livery policies have been available in every state for decades.


Maybe so, but you can't purchase just by saying you do Uber.....at least not in Georgia.


----------



## Hunt to Eat

rtaatl said:


> Maybe so, but you can't purchase just by saying you do Uber.....at least not in Georgia.


Why not?


----------



## rtaatl

Hunt to Eat said:


> Why not?


You have to be a commercial livery carrier to have the option to buy commercial insurance. Not just anyone can purchase it. They will ask for your company and cross reference it with department of public safety to ensure its an existing entity.


----------



## Hunt to Eat

rtaatl said:


> You have to be a commercial livery carrier to have the option to buy commercial insurance. Not just anyone can purchase it. They will ask for your company and cross reference it with department of public safety to ensure its an existing entity.


Wow, what a pain in the ass. I didn't have any such issues. I just asked for a policy rider and got it. Well, then I paid for it, too.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

I would definitely check on that. You would need an LLC to have livery or commercial plates.


----------



## Another Uber Driver

Hunt to Eat said:


> Wow, what a pain in the ass. I didn't have any such issues. I just asked for a policy rider and got it. Well, then I paid for it, too.


Rules, laws and business practices of insurance companies tend to vary by state or jurisdiction. Business practices of insurance companies might be a little more relaxed across North Dakota compared to the business practices of the same companies in Chicago or New York City.


----------



## Bill Feit

Lone-Wolf said:


> Yup, rtaatl, you're right. They are calling insurance companies to verify that we have commercial insurance and not just personal since an insurance company will deny a claim and not pay out to injured passengers in an accident if they find out the driver doesn't have commercial. In that case an injured pax might sue the driver and/or Uber so they are ratting drivers out to protect against lawsuits. Now it all makes sense.
> 
> According to the legal language below, I would assume that almost all part timers are subject to being ratted out since I'm guessing almost all part timers have regular personal insurance. Getting commercial insurance would make driving part time completely unprofitable.
> 
> "You shall have the sole responsibility for any obligations or liabilities to Users or third parties that arise from your provision of Transportation Services. You acknowledge and agree that you are solely responsible for taking such precautions as may be reasonable and proper (including *maintaining adequate insurance that meets the requirements of all applicable laws* including motor vehicle financial responsibility laws).
> 
> "Subject to applicable law, Company and its Affiliates may, but shall not be required to, provide to you, a User, *an insurance company and/or relevant authorities and/or regulatory agencies any information (including personal information* (e.g., information obtained about you through any background check) and any Company Data) about you or any Transportation Services provided hereunder if:
> 
> (b) it is necessary to enforce the terms of this Agreement;
> 
> (d) it is necessary, in Company's or any Affiliate's sole discretion, to (1) *protect the safety, rights, property or security of Company or its Affiliates, the Uber Services or any third party;* (2) to protect the safety of the public for any reason *including the facilitation of insurance claims related to the Uber Services*; (3) to detect, prevent or otherwise address *fraud*, security or technical issues; (4) *to prevent or stop activity which Company or any of its Affiliates*, in their sole discretion, *may consider to be, or to pose a risk of being, an illegal, unethical, or legally actionable activity*); or (e) it is required or necessary, in Company's or any Affiliate's sole discretion, *for insurance or other purposes related to your ability to qualify, or remain qualified, to use the Uber Services.*"


I don't believe this is legal in California who passed an insurance law last year that specifically covers Rideshare responsibility and puts majority of responsibility on the TNC...write your legislators and ask them to act on new law. It does not change the fact the insurance companies here will cancel policy if they know you rideshare also.


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## 5 Star Guy

Bill Feit said:


> I don't believe this is legal in California who passed an insurance law last year that specifically covers Rideshare responsibility and puts majority of responsibility on the TNC...write your legislators and ask them to act on new law. It does not change the fact the insurance companies here will cancel policy if they know you rideshare also.


There is some confusion over CA on here. Some have said there is a new law and from the sound of it I think there is a bill being worked on over TNC. You can't have it both ways, its a law drivers, TNC and insurance companies follow or there isn't. Some states have a TNC gap law now, someone needs to put that list together and pin it on the site.


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## Hunt to Eat

Another Uber Driver said:


> Rules, laws and business practices of insurance companies tend to vary by state or jurisdiction. Business practices of insurance companies might be a little more relaxed across North Dakota compared to the business practices of the same companies in Chicago or New York City.


I don't live in North Dakota - haven't for 30+ years. I just set that as my location as a joke. Lisbon, ND is a miserable little town of a few hundred people that likely doesn't even know what Uber is. I live in a major metro in the desert now.


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## Hunt to Eat

5 Star Guy said:


> I would definitely check on that. You would need an LLC to have livery or commercial plates.


Depends on the state. I have an LLC for one of my other businesses but I don't have commercial plates. But I was able to attach a livery rider to my commercial policy.


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## 5 Star Guy

Lawyers look for holes, you should have either livery or commercial plates tied to the right company. I'd make it bullet proof.


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## Hunt to Eat

5 Star Guy said:


> Lawyers look for holes, you should have either livery or commercial plates tied to the right company. I'd make it bullet proof.


In the state where I drive, I'm covered. But you make an excellent point for others.


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## rtaatl

In Georgia you need a company registered with the Secretary of State, then your entity would need a Class B Limousine Carrier certificate through Dept. Of Public Safety...then you would be able to buy commercial insurance. All policies run through a broker who has to match your company with a provider.


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## Hunt to Eat

rtaatl said:


> In Georgia you need a company registered with the Secretary of State, then your entity would need a Class B Limousine Carrier certificate through Dept. Of Public Safety...then you would be able to buy commercial insurance. All policies run through a broker who has to match your company with a provider.


Man, talk about the government getting in the way of business! I picked up a phone and took care of commercial livery insurance in three minutes.


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## ClevelandUberRider

Edit: I had to delete the entirety of the post because it was impossible to take out the company name and still have the post makes sense (the post talks/explains about the origins of the full name of the company). I apologize as when I was writing I only thought about the company itself and forgot that it was owned by another corporation.


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## Hunt to Eat

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Did you get your policy from Government Employees Insurance Company (GEICO).
> 
> I am not kidding.
> 
> It started as an auto insurer focusing on selling auto insurance to only govt employees through direct mail (many decades ago), because the founders knew that govt employees drive a lot safer than the rest of the population but no one were offering them commensurate lower rates in premiums. Hence its name GEICO.


No. It's not Geico.


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## There’s no need to tip

As an attorney for a major insurance company we most likely WILL find out at some point if you are using your vehicle for commercial purposes. Each company will react to this information differently but most share information with one another. Personal auto insurance market is HIGHLY competitive these days so every company is looking to get ahead. They will have NO QUALMS denying your claim if the circumstances present themself.

Make sure you guys have all your insurance shit straightened out, especially if driving in bad weather. If you haven't looked into the specifics of when, for what, and for how much you are covered for during all phases of Uber please do so ASAP. You should also be aware how your personal insurance will interact with Uber's coverage (if they will even cover you at all). Don't take it lightly! One bad accident can ruin you financially for a very long time, if not the rest of your life. Also, even if you aren't in an accident and you are cancelled or not renewed because the insurance company believes you are using the vehicle commercially, you might find yourself paying higher premiums in the future as that information is shared with other companies. It isn't worth it for the pittance Uber throws your way.


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## Bill Feit

There's no need to tip said:


> As an attorney for a major insurance company we most likely WILL find out at some point if you are using your vehicle for commercial purposes. Each company will react to this information differently but most share information with one another. Personal auto insurance market is HIGHLY competitive these days so every company is looking to get ahead. They will have NO QUALMS denying your claim if the circumstances present themself.
> 
> Make sure you guys have all your insurance shit straightened out, especially if driving in bad weather. If you haven't looked into the specifics of when, for what, and for how much you are covered for during all phases of Uber please do so ASAP. You should also be aware how your personal insurance will interact with Uber's coverage (if they will even cover you at all). Don't take it lightly! One bad accident can ruin you financially for a very long time, if not the rest of your life. Also, even if you aren't in an accident and you are cancelled or not renewed because the insurance company believes you are using the vehicle commercially, you might find yourself paying higher premiums in the future as that information is shared with other companies. It isn't worth it for the pittance Uber throws your way.


Wondering why a major insurance company would need an attorney in Antarctica! Please let all companies you interact with know we need help when it comes to insurance...ALL should be offering riders or additional coverage for the over 1 million drivers here in the US...what do we have...one? TNC is over 6 years old now!


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## There’s no need to tip

Bill Feit said:


> Wondering why a major insurance company would need an attorney in Antarctica! Please let all companies you interact with know we need help when it comes to insurance...ALL should be offering riders or additional coverage for the over 1 million drivers here in the US...what do we have...one? TNC is over 6 years old now!


Many are starting to dabble with (or at least consider) rideshare type coverage. I am not knowledgeable enough about the actuary/underwriting side of things so I don't know how much that would have to cost for it to be profitable. There is a reason commercial insurance is so high. I think more companies will find a middle ground but with what you guys are paid, it might not make financial sense for you to pay it. I am sure some people (if not most) are still going to roll the dice (if they even know they are at risk).


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## Another Uber Driver

Bill Feit said:


> we need help when it comes to insurance...ALL should be offering riders or additional coverage for the over 1 million drivers here in the US...what do we have...one? TNC is over 6 years old now!


From what I understand, the carriers in the U.S. of A. that offer a TNC endorsement or policy are: G.E.I.CO, Erie, USAA, State Farm and Allstate. Not all carriers offer this type of product in every state/jurisdiction where they are admitted. In addition, there is Metromile, which, supposedly, was designed for drivers in TNC work. Metromile is available in only a few states, though.

Erie offers it in the District of Columbia. I have it. For the longest time, we could not buy any such coverage in the District of Columbia. The body of insurance laws here that regard hauling passengers for compensation date to 1938 and have been little revised or reviewed since then. Some of us went as far as to draft a letter to the legislator with whom "arrangements" were......."-ER-uh-the _*legislator who took the lead in having legislation to accomodate TNCs passed in the City Council*_ that complained about the inability of Districf of Columbia residents who could not purchase appropriate insurance for TNC work. Erie's offering the policy-with-endorsement obviated the need for the letter.

Considering that a TNC endorsement/policy is available in all three jurisdictions in the Washington Metropolitan Area, it amazes me that the majority of TNC drivers here have not bothered with it. It is not that expensive in the District of Columbia. From what I have heard from the Maryland residents, the additional premium is not that bad. The Virginia policy appears to be somewhat different from the other two. It is somewhat more pricey that in the other two jurisdictions.


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## ClevelandUberRider

There's no need to tip said:


> Many are starting to dabble with (or at least consider) rideshare type coverage. I am not knowledgeable enough about the actuary/underwriting side of things so I don't know how much that would have to cost for it to be profitable. There is a reason commercial insurance is so high. I think more companies will find a middle ground but with what you guys are paid, it might not make financial sense for you to pay it. I am sure some people (if not most) are still going to roll the dice (if they even know they are at risk).


Agreed. To summarize and build on some of my previous posts on this...

The off-loading of insurance liability (A) is one of the four major parts that contribute to the lower fares of TNC rides vs traditional cab rides.

The other three are, (B) the breaking up (or, rather, savings from not having to be a part of) the old, existing regulated taxi "medallion"/commissions/system, (C) because of the flexibility and freedom provided drivers, many drivers are willing to earn less than the cab drivers due to the many hours typically called for if one drives for a cab company (fixed rental per day or week calls for maximizing driving), and (D) TNCs can afford to lose money as a high growth, high market cap tech firm vs. local cab companies needing to turn a profit to survive.

The existing lower fares enjoyed by TNC riders are mostly made up of the contributions from A, B, C, and D. Are these competitive advantages sustainable?

In the medium term, A and B are already nibbling at TNC's heels. Laws are passed, regulations kick in, TNCs are becoming more and more regulated (B). Drivers will have to get insured for all stages of TNC work, cutting out TNCs' insurance cost advantage (A).

In the long run, (D) TNCs will be pressured more than they are today, by their investors, to show profits.

So that leaves (C) being the only long term sustainable competitive advantage. Which was exactly the reason and battle cry of the TNCs' founding history. Rideshare.


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