# Protection



## Ubericator (Aug 23, 2018)

Do you carry any time of self-defense weapon?

I had a couple of times guys getting into my car saying I was their driver but could not verify the info so I asked them to get out, but one of the times the guy was refusing to get out and even tried to convince me that he was with my actual rider who had just gotten in. 

I am wondering what are the laws if I pepper spray, tase etc someone that is against my will in my car and refusing to get out? 

Also same thing for bitter passengers that I am forced to end the ride because of safety concerns...


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## HolikDad (Jun 14, 2018)

I have my CCW so I carry while I drive though I know it's against policy but better safe than sorry.


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## Snowblind (Apr 14, 2017)

I have Pepper Gel in my Car.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004NKSPR8/?tag=ubne0c-20


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## 1.5xorbust (Nov 22, 2017)

My safety is infinitely more important than any potential deactivation. I am prepared accordingly.


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## NTXDFWDriver2017 (Sep 22, 2017)

HolikDad said:


> I have my CCW so I carry while I drive though I know it's against policy but better safe than sorry.


Where do you drive just out of curiosity are you in Texas


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## HolikDad (Jun 14, 2018)

NTXDFWDriver2017 said:


> Where do you drive just out of curiosity are you in Texas


No, surprisingly enough I live in Fresno CA but they opened up getting your CCW here like other states do regularly.


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## NTXDFWDriver2017 (Sep 22, 2017)

HolikDad said:


> No, surprisingly enough I live in Fresno CA but they opened up getting your CCW here like other states do regularly.


Yes so cal is ****ed up lol


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## HolikDad (Jun 14, 2018)

NTXDFWDriver2017 said:


> Yes so cal is &%[email protected]!*ed up lol


That's the truth, we moved out in '97 but moved back in '16. We're planning on getting out again in the next 5 or so years.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Ubericator said:


> Do you carry any time of self-defense weapon?
> 
> I had a couple of times guys getting into my car saying I was their driver but could not verify the info so I asked them to get out, but one of the times the guy was refusing to get out and even tried to convince me that he was with my actual rider who had just gotten in.
> 
> ...


Laws vary from state to state. Check yours. Uber says no guns or weapons. You can choose to ignore this and know that if anyone finds out about it and reports you, you will probably be permanently deactivated. Of course, if your life is in actual, immediate jeopardy, that weapon will come in handy. Your call.

Find items that can do "double duty". Maglight flashlights, etc.

And for Pete's sake, don't unlock your doors until you're sure the person is your rider!


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## Ribak (Jun 30, 2017)

Ubericator said:


> Do you carry any time of self-defense weapon?
> 
> I had a couple of times guys getting into my car saying I was their driver but could not verify the info so I asked them to get out, but one of the times the guy was refusing to get out and even tried to convince me that he was with my actual rider who had just gotten in.
> 
> ...


Always carry some type of protection. In most cases, the outcome will not be as worse as driving unprotected. I am awaiting a background check and completion of a gun safety course.....prior to keeping a gun. However, I currently have other means of protection.


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## disp350 (Jul 16, 2016)

Ubericator said:


> Do you carry any time of self-defense weapon?
> 
> I had a couple of times guys getting into my car saying I was their driver but could not verify the info so I asked them to get out, but one of the times the guy was refusing to get out and even tried to convince me that he was with my actual rider who had just gotten in.
> 
> ...


First rule - doors always stay locked til I confirm the correct passenger through a sightly lowered window. That aside, I do carry pepper spray, but it's for a last resort if someone were to try and attack me. Need to be very careful before using it as an offensive weapon. If I ever get someone that refused to leave, I would just get out and call the police and let them deal with it. You never know what they could be carrying if you just decide to pull out the pepper spray.


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## Scott.Sul (Sep 9, 2015)

It is illegal to carry a concealed firearm in places that ban them. 

If Uber says firearms are banned in "their" cars, and you decide to ignore it, it might open up charges against you.
In NC, if you are pulled over you are required by law to inform the officer of your firearm. 99% the pax will be shocked and 100% chance you will be deactivated. Some pax might even try to sue you for "endangering their lives".... don't expect Uber to support you.
If you feel you must carry a firearm while Ubering, you might want to consider another line of work or change your driving times to safer hours.

I don't carry while Ubering and I also don't Uber during times that might be considered unsafe. Even though, I still tend to be constantly alert and aware of potential hazards around me. Situational awareness is great prevention.
I only drive limited hours so deactivation wouldn't bother me but I don't feel like inviting charges or lawsuits into my life.


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## HolikDad (Jun 14, 2018)

Scott.Sul said:


> It is illegal to carry a concealed firearm in places that ban them.
> 
> If Uber says firearms are banned in "their" cars, and you decide to ignore it, it might open up charges against you.
> In NC, if you are pulled over you are required by law to inform the officer of your firearm. 99% the pax will be shocked and 100% chance you will be deactivated. Some pax might even try to sue you for "endangering their lives".... don't expect Uber to support you.
> ...


Surprisingly not here in CA, even if a business has a posted sign you can ignore it. It's only illegal on state or Federal property.


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## Texie Driver (Sep 5, 2018)

Scott.Sul said:


> It is illegal to carry a concealed firearm in places that ban them.
> 
> If Uber says firearms are banned in "their" cars, and you decide to ignore it, it might open up charges against you.
> In NC, if you are pulled over you are required by law to inform the officer of your firearm. 99% the pax will be shocked and 100% chance you will be deactivated. Some pax might even try to sue you for "endangering their lives".... don't expect Uber to support you.
> ...


not "their" car of course, az law is not on uber's side in this
gun free workplaces cannot ban employees from keeping weapons in private cars in gun free workplace property parking lot.
not uber's property or employee at all, i don't think the policy would survive a legal challenge here in the unlikely event one was brought.

edited to add source
https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix...es-with-guns-what-employers-need-to-know.html


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## merryon2nd (Aug 31, 2016)

I personally carry a mag light, and a bag of tools (including a wrecker bar and a sledgehammer), and a sprite blade hidden on my key ring as a key.
As well as an infinitely sharp tongue that I've used more than anything else. lol
I can get away with this because I'm a licensed technician, and this car is a work car. I'm technically still labeled as an employee at my last shop, and they adore me enough to CMA in case of a time I'm in need of using anything in my arsenal.


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## disp350 (Jul 16, 2016)

I think the point of the original post still needs to be considered: You don't use, pull or display any type of weapon for a pax who won't exit your vehicle. Especially if you have a dash cam. Yes, they may do damage, but it's recorded for the police, Uber and your own personal attorney for you to sue the guts out of them if they do any damage. Just not worth risking yourself over it.


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## flyntflossy10 (Jun 2, 2017)

lol YES please do! Taze the first person you have a minor conflict with, and dont forget to share.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

SuzeCB said:


> Laws vary from state to state. Check yours. Uber says no guns or weapons. You can choose to ignore this and know that if anyone finds out about it and reports you, you will probably be permanently deactivated. Of course, if your life is in actual, immediate jeopardy, that weapon will come in handy. Your call.
> 
> Find items that can do "double duty". Maglight flashlights, etc.
> 
> And for Pete's sake, don't unlock your doors until you're sure the person is your rider!


Unless you need to shoot someone no one should be able to see it.

And never draw unless you would be justified to shoot.

I'm all for your mag-light idea, bonus if it turns on. A flashlight can be super useful.

Other things to stick in your driver door pocket.

Tire iron- bonus if it fits your lug bolts

Scissors - also useful for cutting open chip bags and hostess packages
(they will also create gnarly wounds that any good ER will recognize as "scissor wounds" especially if the perp lies to them. IE if the police check the local ERs for scissors wounds you'll have a limited pool of idiots who managed severe scissor stab wounds.

Knitting needles- bonus if you know how to Knit, because hey... something to do between fares.


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## Texie Driver (Sep 5, 2018)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Unless you need to shoot someone no one should be able to see it.
> 
> And never draw unless you would be justified to shoot.
> 
> ...


product weight: 4 lbs. easily concealed under drivers seat


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## wontgetfooledagain (Jul 3, 2018)

When you take the CCW course there is a lengthy part of the course that goes over the legality of self-protection and the bottom line is that unless your life is in real danger, you will be the one who goes to jail if you use your gun. Someone can beat the shit out of you and if you shoot them, you are in trouble. 

Something to keep in mind.


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## RoWode12 (May 12, 2018)

Officially, if anyone asks, the answer is always “no.” 

We are not supposed to carry any weapons of any kind. I’m sure that includes pepper spray. 

I don’t really care what U/L say when it comes to my life though. However, no one should ever know unless you need to use it. 

Just remember, if you spray pepper spray in the car, you will be hit with it too.


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## Texie Driver (Sep 5, 2018)

RoWode12 said:


> Officially, if anyone asks, the answer is always "no."
> 
> We are not supposed to carry any weapons of any kind. I'm sure that includes pepper spray.
> 
> ...


pepper spray is really a poor choice in any enclosed area


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

wontgetfooledagain said:


> When you take the CCW course there is a lengthy part of the course that goes over the legality of self-protection and the bottom line is that unless your life is in real danger, you will be the one who goes to jail if you use your gun. Someone can beat the shit out of you and if you shoot them, you are in trouble.
> 
> Something to keep in mind.


erm...

I live in the Gunshine State thou...










Self protection is my right. I'd rather take my chances as a disabled combat veteran in court than my chance of surviving a violent altercation without shooting someone.

Chances are high i'd get a jury of 12 retirees...

Disabled veteran self defenses an attacker to death in Florida.

What are the odds of getting convicted in THAT situation?


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## Ardery (May 26, 2017)

Ubericator said:


> Do you carry any time of self-defense weapon?
> 
> I had a couple of times guys getting into my car saying I was their driver but could not verify the info so I asked them to get out, but one of the times the guy was refusing to get out and even tried to convince me that he was with my actual rider who had just gotten in.
> 
> ...


my car doors remain locked AT ALL TIMES.

i roll windows down partially asking "can I have your name?" and the doors remain locked until they give me the name. if they say the wrong name, or they refuse to tell me the name, I immediately drive off.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Ardery said:


> my car doors remain locked AT ALL TIMES.
> 
> i roll windows down partially asking "can I have your name?" and the doors remain locked until they give me the name. if they say the wrong name, or they refuse to tell me the name, I immediately drive off.


That's how i do it.
never get the wrong passenger.


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## dctcmn (Sep 21, 2017)

Common sense and the cancel button. Everything else is window dressing.


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Laws vary from state to state. Check yours. Uber says no guns or weapons.


Clarification: Uber says no guns, Lyft says no weapons at all.



wontgetfooledagain said:


> the bottom line is that unless your life is in real danger, you will be the one who goes to jail if you use your gun


React with appropriate force is the key. If they are simply sitting there refusing to get out, your legal remedy is to call the cops. Sucks, but that's the way American societal laws work.


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

RoWode12 said:


> Officially, if anyone asks, the answer is always "no."
> 
> We are not supposed to carry any weapons of any kind. I'm sure that includes pepper spray.
> 
> ...


In the form of a gel, it won't do that. I discharged pepper gel in my car and it all went on Jackwagon's face. Nothing hit me or anywhere else.



Mista T said:


> Clarification: Uber says no guns, Lyft says no weapons at all.


Neither of them will tell you why it's legal for them to state or enforce such policies. Though they do say that their policies are subject to applicable state and federal law.



SuzeCB said:


> Find items that can do "double duty". Maglight flashlights, etc.


Ruger has a nice triple-duty flashlight that functions also as a club and stun gun.


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## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

If you're going to carry a firearm, I personally recommend a 12 gauge shotgun with a barrel shortened to legal length. Keep in mind that both the barrel length and overall length are regulated in most states. Load it with #4 buck for the beautiful pattern at short range. It will splatter an asshole all over the parking lot.

Realistically, if I were going to carry anything (I don't), I would carry a sturdy flashlight.

Texie Driver's suggestion of a "Club" is also excellent. Like a flashlight, it is an item which is NOT a weapon and serves a legitimate purpose in any car. In a frantic moment of self-defense, you happen to grab it and smash some moron...good job!


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Mista T said:


> Clarification: Uber says no guns, Lyft says no weapons at all.
> 
> React with appropriate force is the key. If they are simply sitting there refusing to get out, your legal remedy is to call the cops. Sucks, but that's the way American societal laws work.


If you call the cops, make sure you say that the fact that they refuse to leave your car makes you feel very unsafe. This way, if the situation escalates and you being them in the head with your Maglight (nonweapon that is very effective) there is evidence that you felt threatened.

And you don't even have to worry about keeping a baseball mitt stored with it.



Fargle said:


> In the form of a gel, it won't do that. I discharged pepper gel in my car and it all went on Jackwagon's face. Nothing hit me or anywhere else.
> 
> Neither of them will tell you why it's legal for them to state or enforce such policies. Though they do say that their policies are subject to applicable state and federal law.
> 
> Ruger has a nice triple-duty flashlight that functions also as a club and stun gun.


Got to be careful with the stun gun. They're illegal in a lot of states. I was looking more for items that are not weapons traditionally, but can be used as Weapons if the need arises.


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## Ardery (May 26, 2017)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> erm...
> 
> I live in the Gunshine State thou...
> 
> ...


if it was true self defense and if I was on the jury, you'd be going home.


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## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

SuzeCB said:


> If you call the cops, make sure you say that the fact that they refuse to leave your car makes you feel very unsafe. This way, if the situation escalates and you being them in the head with your Maglight (nonweapon that is very effective) there is evidence that you felt threatened.


I agree, except if you tell Officer Friendly that this is YOUR car and they refuse to get out of it -- that should be end of story.

They're trespassing, and they can either get out and call another Uber -- or be _taken_ out and get a free ride.

The real key in that situation is to call the police and let them handle it.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Ubericator said:


> Do you carry any time of self-defense weapon?
> 
> I had a couple of times guys getting into my car saying I was their driver but could not verify the info so I asked them to get out, but one of the times the guy was refusing to get out and even tried to convince me that he was with my actual rider who had just gotten in.
> 
> ...


I get it, you want to carry something for self defense, but it the situation you described, you are not in any immediate danger

Just shot down the car, get out and call the police...


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

If it is guys , I always ask name and destination , then door lock opens
If it is a hottie , I never ask, just open the door for the hottie .. don't care if she is the right person 
Rest of them., I don't really know what I do . It is instinct


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Ardery said:


> if it was true self defense and if I was on the jury, you'd be going home.


yeah and a great deal of the time the detectives will look at a situation and declare it self defense.


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## Reynob Moore (Feb 17, 2017)

I carry a rocket launcher and a flamethrower just in case.


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## emdeplam (Jan 13, 2017)

As a feminist and woman's health advocate I strongly urge all to carry protection!


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## OtherUbersdo (May 17, 2018)

emdeplam said:


> As a feminist and woman's health advocate I strongly urge all to carry protection!


 Would you put a condom on your tongue before you ate a steak ? No thanks .


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

oldfart said:


> I get it, you want to carry something for self defense, but it the situation you described, you are not in any immediate danger
> 
> Just shot down the car, get out and call the police...


Not quite. If you have to stop, get out, and order unruly paxen from your car, you should have pepper spray at the ready. It's a situation that could get ugly.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

OtherUbersdo said:


> Would you put a condom on your tongue before you ate a steak ? No thanks .


It all feels the same if you're on the other end.

C


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Fargle said:


> Not quite. If you have to stop, get out, and order unruly paxen from your car, you should have pepper spray at the ready. It's a situation that could get ugly.


Sure. "At the ready" But the op was suggesting proactive action. I think that's asking for trouble


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

Scott.Sul said:


> It is illegal to carry a concealed firearm in places that ban them.
> 
> If Uber says firearms are banned in "their" cars, and you decide to ignore it, it might open up charges against you.
> In NC, if you are pulled over you are required by law to inform the officer of your firearm. 99% the pax will be shocked and 100% chance you will be deactivated. Some pax might even try to sue you for "endangering their lives".... don't expect Uber to support you.
> ...


So we are employees of uber and not contractors?


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## Irishjohn831 (Aug 11, 2017)

I wear a nun outfit and smack them on the hand with a long ruler.


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## Brian Rasmussen (Feb 14, 2017)

Snowblind said:


> I have Pepper Gel in my Car.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004NKSPR8/?tag=ubne0c-20


Pepper gel is much better then pepper spray...








flyntflossy10 said:


> lol YES please do! Taze the first person you have a minor conflict with, and dont forget to share.


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## wontgetfooledagain (Jul 3, 2018)

Attacking a pax with anything- a gun, club, pepper spray, etc., will likely get you injured or killed. If it gets hairy, pull over, turn the car off, grab the keys, exit the car and call the police.


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> erm...
> 
> I live in the Gunshine State thou...
> 
> ...


Absolutely *0* ...

*Just shot down the car, get out and call the police...*

I love this...just get out....take aim...

Strategically place one shot into the car....

Guarantee he is out of the car in seconds...

Would be funny to see how fast...

He can run the 100 yard dash....8>)

Rakos


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

wontgetfooledagain said:


> Attacking a pax with anything- a gun, club, pepper spray, etc., will likely get you injured or killed. If it gets hairy, pull over, turn the car off, grab the keys, exit the car and call the police.


More specifically, you'll distract yourself and lose control of the car.


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## Merc7186 (Jul 8, 2017)

I have very big Maglite....you know, to help me see when trouble arises.


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## CZ75 (Aug 10, 2018)

Scott.Sul said:


> It is illegal to carry a concealed firearm in places that ban them.
> 
> If Uber says firearms are banned in "their" cars, and you decide to ignore it, it might open up charges against you.


What charges? My car is an extension of my home. I'm not an Uber employee and I'm not driving their company-owned car. They have no legal right to disarm me.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Christinebitg said:


> It all feels the same if you're on the other end.
> 
> C


And, if it doesn't, they sell lube....

Just sayin'...



Juggalo9er said:


> So we are employees of uber and not contractors?


It's a matter of both sides having a reasonable expectation of what they're getting. It's a rule they certainly can make. They do have that right, and, technically, if either driver or rider don't like it, they can find something else to do.

And I'm not weighing in on any gun issue as a whole here, either. Just on whether U/L has the right to say what they allow on their platform, and what every driver and pax has signed their agreement to.


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> And, if it doesn't, they sell lube....
> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> ...


So technology companies.... never mind



Juggalo9er said:


> So technology companies.... never mind


One of the premises of being a contractor is having control over the manner in which work is performed.... did I miss something in business school


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## Stav53 (Nov 9, 2017)

In Florida, the law says that you are allowed to carry a gun except in government buidlings, schools and bars.
The legislator actually reversed the Uber regulation of no weapons in the car while app is ON.
I read this article the other day, not too long ago. Google it.


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## CarpeNoctem (Sep 12, 2018)

I have looked and the only thing I can find concerning a gun is something to the effect of "whatever your local laws are". As long as you have a license, you can conceal or open carry here. Not that I would but that is what our local laws are.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> So technology companies.... never mind
> 
> One of the premises of being a contractor is having control over the manner in which work is performed.... did I miss something in business school


Yeah. Contracts.


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Yeah. Contracts.


Sorry, what you're referring relates to direct control, i.e. employees....


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> Sorry, what you're referring relates to direct control, i.e. employees....


Not really. A general contractor can certainly have, as part of a contract with, say, a carpenter, "No guns while working in this job", and if the carpenter agrees and signs proving that agreement (as drivers do with U/L), then no guns. It's perfectly legitimate, even in Texas.


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Not really. A general contractor can certainly have, as part of a contract with, say, a carpenter, "No guns while working in this job", and if the carpenter agrees and signs proving that agreement (as drivers do with U/L), then no guns. It's perfectly legitimate, even in Texas.


That might fly if Uber owns the car. Otherwise, no.


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Not really. A general contractor can certainly have, as part of a contract with, say, a carpenter, "No guns while working in this job", and if the carpenter agrees and signs proving that agreement (as drivers do with U/L), then no guns. It's perfectly legitimate, even in Texas.


You're arguing one aspect.... please read this
https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-ss-8


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> You're arguing one aspect.... please read this
> https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-ss-8


I I'm not arguing whether drivers are employees or independent contractors. I was pointing out how Fargle's independent contractor argument is irrelevant regarding guns in the face of the contract that all drivers signed. Stay on topic! LOL


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> I I'm not arguing whether drivers are employees or independent contractors. I was pointing out how your independent contractor argument is irrelevant regarding guns in the face of the contract that all drivers signed. Stay on topic! LOL


The two are the same arguement in my eyes


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> The two are the same arguement in my eyes


Your eyes, unless you are a judge hearing the matter, are irrelevant.

If wishes were horses....


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Your eyes, unless you are a judge hearing the matter, are irrelevant.
> 
> If wishes were horses....


I filed that form on uber around 8 months ago.... we shall see....


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> I filed that form on uber around 8 months ago.... we shall see....


That still wouldn't change anything about the issue at hand. Stay focused.


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> That still wouldn't change anything about the issue at hand. Stay focused.


There is no arguement about firearms and uber because constitution


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> I I'm not arguing whether drivers are employees or independent contractors. I was pointing out how Fargle's independent contractor argument is irrelevant regarding guns in the face of the contract that all drivers signed. Stay on topic! LOL


I was arguing from a perspective of private property and third party diktats. That's why Florida explicitly forbids this kind of discrimination. It's probably implicitly illegal as well.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> There is no arguement about firearms and uber because constitution


You are misapplying that. Any store has the right to tell its customers and its employees that it does not allow firearms in it. Even in Texas, believe it or not.

The right to bear arms does not guarantee your right to carry a gun into my home if I don't want you to. Similarly, businesses are able to say the same thing.

If you truly want to assert your constitutional rights, you really should learn something more about them.

Uber does not say anywhere that you can't carry a gun. They just say you're not supposed to carry it while you are driving for them. They say this on both sides of the app, so that, theoretically, a driver doesn't have to worry about a Pax having a gun, and the Pax doesn't have to worry about a driver having a gun. And then there are the liability issues, of course.

The point is, Uber has a right to have this in their contract, and the fact that you signed it says that you will comply. If you wanted to carry your gun that badly, don't drive for Uber or Lyft. It's that simple. If you're going to do it anyway, don't cry if you get deactivated. You will not have any legal recourse if they deactivate you for carrying a weapon, Second Amendment or not. You agreed.


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> You are misapplying that. Any store has the right to tell its customers and its employees that it does not allow firearms in it. Even in Texas, believe it or not.
> 
> The right to bear arms does not guarantee your right to carry a gun into my home if I don't want you to. Similarly, businesses are able to say the same thing.
> 
> ...


I can happily and I mean happily argue this through case law.... let me state this exactly as I mean it!
Uber can outlaw firearms to its drivers the same as ups can dictate what kind of semi it's drivers use... however in the end this would make the contractor an employee.... please lookup ups getting sued for improperly classifying employees As contractors
Any and i mean most any rule that dictates how work is performed very likely makes that contractor an employee.... do you think uber would push that issue?


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> I can happily and I mean happily argue this through case law.... let me state this exactly as I mean it!
> Uber can outlaw firearms to its drivers the same as ups can dictate what kind of semi it's drivers use... however in the end this would make the contractor an employee.... please lookup ups getting sued for improperly classifying employees As contractors
> Any and i mean most any rule that dictates how work is performed very likely makes that contractor an employee.... do you think uber would push that issue?


There is a third category, actually, which is probably the one that drivers for Uber and Lyft fall into. This is the contractor employee category. Nobody discusses this, but what little I've been able to dig up on it, it seems, at least to me, that this is probably what the drivers are. It shares pros and cons with both of the other two.

None of these three classifications would make drivers entirely happy, and only one of them makes the tncs happy. It's not about happiness, however, it's about labor law.


----------



## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> There is a third category, actually, which is probably the one that drivers for Uber and Lyft fall into. This is the contractor employee category. Nobody discusses this, but what little I've been able to dig up on it, it seems, at least to me, that this is probably what the drivers are. It shares pros and cons with both of the other two.
> 
> None of these three classifications would make drivers entirely happy, and only one of them makes the tncs happy. It's not about happiness, however, it's about labor law.


Could you right now perform the same work without the uber app, needing to do absolutely nothing else?


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> Could you right now perform the same work without the uber app, needing to do absolutely nothing else?


Again, this thread isn't about that. Others exist for that purpose.

Topics exist for a reason.


----------



## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Again, this thread isn't about that. Others exist for that purpose.
> 
> Topics exist for a reason.


The two are linked, maybe not in your world


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> The two are linked, maybe not in your world


Every topic in this forum is linked to all of the others. It's all very confusing unless you're able to separate it and focus on one thing. Perhaps you should try Vyvanse. It's worked wonders for my son's ADD symptoms.


----------



## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Every topic in this forum is linked to all of the others. It's all very confusing unless you're able to separate it and focus on one thing. Perhaps you should try Vyvanse. It's worked wonders for my son's ADD symptoms.


Perhaps you should attend Kelly school of business and take the lsat.... what's next a vaccine cause autism spew


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Since Texas is getting discussed here, let me add my perspective from Houston. I have lived here for 22 years.

I used to visit refineries and chemical plants for work, until I retired 5 months ago. They all, without exception, DO prohibit firearms in their facilities. The only exception to that is law enforcement officers.

I also have spent a lot of time in Louisiana, which is just as conservative, if not moreso. The same rules apply there.

In Louisiana, they have passed a law that says that those plants cannot prohibit their employees from having a gun in their car (or more often, their pickup truck) IN THE PARKING LOT. Those guns are never (ever) allowed inside the plant. Ever.

Christine



SuzeCB said:


> theoretically, a driver doesn't have to worry about a Pax having a gun, and the Pax doesn't have to worry about a driver having a gun.


Unfortunately, that safety is only theoretical. Having the rule doesn't stop a pax from carrying. I suppose they could get banned from Uber. (Oh my!)

But as long as they're wondering if the driver is carrying, we should be fine.

Actually, the best protection is that people know we get paid through the app, instead of being seen like a taxi as a rolling ATM.

C


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> You are misapplying that. Any store has the right to tell its customers and its employees that it does not allow firearms in it. Even in Texas, believe it or not.
> 
> The right to bear arms does not guarantee your right to carry a gun into my home if I don't want you to. Similarly, businesses are able to say the same thing.
> 
> ...


None of this actually applies to Uber/Lyft drivers because, unlike the other scenarios you describe, the company neither owns nor leases/rents the premises/facilities where business is conducted.


----------



## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

Fargle said:


> None of this actually applies to Uber/Lyft drivers because, unlike the other scenarios you describe, the company neither owns nor leases/rents the premises/facilities where business is conducted.


I was more willing to see the extent someone will attempt to argue when they are wrong!


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> None of this actually applies to Uber/Lyft drivers


Except for one little problem. If don't agree to the Terms of Service, you don't even get into the game.

You don't agree? Fine, but no pings for you.

Sure, you're a separate company. And they don't own your car. Do you want to accept the ToS and drive, or not.

C


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> Except for one little problem. If don't agree to the Terms of Service, you don't even get into the game.
> 
> You don't agree? Fine, but no pings for you.
> 
> ...


TOS cannot preempt property rights. For a good time, ask Uber what laws allow them to make these policies.


----------



## CZ75 (Aug 10, 2018)

SuzeCB said:


> You are misapplying that. Any store has the right to tell its customers and its employees that it does not allow firearms in it. Even in Texas, believe it or not.


You're correct, and since we're using Texas as an example, Texas has a particular requirement to make it legally impermissible to have a firearm on the premise(s). We like to joke about it being a "thirty-aught-six" sign because the legal code is the same as a rifle round (.30-06 is the round, 30.06 is the sign). Whatever, that's not important. What's important is that if you want to legally enforce a gun-free zone, that sign must be prominently displayed at entry.



SuzeCB said:


> The right to bear arms does not guarantee your right to carry a gun into my home if I don't want you to. Similarly, businesses are able to say the same thing.


Not wrong, just need that sign clearly visible if you're a business. If you're a homeowner then you need to give prior notice. So I guess that's where the debate is. Is some lengthy ToS that hardly anyone reads enough to be that proper notice? For Uber they'll escape any liability but why would they be liable anyway? It's that independent contractor that feared for his/her life when the gun was pulled out in his/her home (vehicle is an extension of the home).



SuzeCB said:


> If you truly want to assert your constitutional rights, you really should learn something more about them.


I think we all have more to learn. It's a contract and Uber doesn't have to do business with anyone but that's where it ends. Not that you're saying that, but I've seen another post in this thread saying a driver could have repercussions (suggestion beyond termination) if they carried. I have my doubts. To the gun owners I say: carry away. Texas now calls it an LTC so if you have one, great! Your car's your home so you don't need a permit anyway. If some crazy pax is pulling your locked door handle and trying to gain forcible entry, you have a legal right to shoot 'em just as if they're breaking down your front door. God forbid this happens to you.



SuzeCB said:


> Uber does not say anywhere that you can't carry a gun. They just say you're not supposed to carry it while you are driving for them.


Well then that's fine. I'm not "supposed to." I will anyway. Uber clearly doesn't value my life as much as I do. Texas surpassed the 1-million mark in LTC permits a few years ago. 1 in 28 people. How many Uber drivers in DFW? How many in Texas? How many customers? Odds are, guns are in Uber cars. Queue that video of a popular forum post where a drunk passenger throws a beer can at the driver. One step further and that thread's telling a different story.



SuzeCB said:


> They say this on both sides of the app, so that, theoretically, a driver doesn't have to worry about a Pax having a gun, and the Pax doesn't have to worry about a driver having a gun. And then there are the liability issues, of course.


1 in 28. You needn't worry, though, because permit holders are the good guys. https://www.dps.texas.gov/rsd/LTC/reports/convrates.htm



SuzeCB said:


> The point is, Uber has a right to have this in their contract, and the fact that you signed it says that you will comply. If you wanted to carry your gun that badly, don't drive for Uber or Lyft.


I disagree. I agree that they have a contract, but I disagree that you shouldn't carry while driving. If not a gun then have bear mace. Something because in the heat of a moment it's just you. If you don't fight for you, you lose. Make that fight the most lopsided event in history.



SuzeCB said:


> It's that simple. If you're going to do it anyway, don't cry if you get deactivated. You will not have any legal recourse if they deactivate you for carrying a weapon, Second Amendment or not. You agreed.


I don't think anyone advocating for carrying some form of defense while they "work for" Uber will cry about deactivation. That will be the least of their worries.


----------



## LakerLeBron (Oct 10, 2018)

Ubericator said:


> Do you carry any time of self-defense weapon?
> 
> I had a couple of times guys getting into my car saying I was their driver but could not verify the info so I asked them to get out, but one of the times the guy was refusing to get out and even tried to convince me that he was with my actual rider who had just gotten in.
> 
> ...


One of my protections is the perfume.
I prefer Burberry Perfume


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> TOS cannot preempt property rights.


No, it can't. But...

They can choose to not do business with you. You get to pick. Comply with the ToS or don't drive for Uber.

C


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> No, it can't. But...
> 
> They can choose to not do business with you. You get to pick. Comply with the ToS or don't drive for Uber.
> 
> C


Personal property. Mine. Not Uber's. One cannot sign away civil rights. This has been hashed out decades ago.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> Personal property. Mine. Not Uber's. One cannot sign away civil rights. This has been hashed out decades ago.


Uber has the right to deactivate you too.


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> Uber has the right to deactivate you too.


No. No, they don't. Ask Uber why what they do is legal. They won't tell you.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> No. No, they don't. Ask Uber why what they do is legal. They won't tell you.


For not complying with the ToS?

Get serious.


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> For not complying with the ToS?
> 
> Get serious.


Huh? Ask Uber what law allows them to tell you that 1) you can't carry a gun or 2) you can't allow a passenger to carry a gun. They'll tapdance around the question, cite irrelevant pages, and refuse to give a clear and honest answer. It it was legal for them to do it, don't you think they'd be straight with you? But they don't. Go ahead. Ask them. I invite all of you to try it and see for yourself what they say.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> Ask Uber what law allows them to tell you that 1) you can't carry a gun or 2) you can't allow a passenger to carry a gun.


There's no law about it. They don't need a law to deactivate you. Just ask the drivers who have been DA'd as a result of bogus pax complaints.

C


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## wontgetfooledagain (Jul 3, 2018)

Fargle said:


> More specifically, you'll distract yourself and lose control of the car.


Actually, I was referring to the possibility of the weapon being turned in the struggle and used on the driver. Fights don't happen like in the movies...


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## Bbonez (Aug 10, 2018)

SuzeCB said:


> You are misapplying that. Any store has the right to tell its customers and its employees that it does not allow firearms in it. Even in Texas, believe it or not.
> 
> The right to bear arms does not guarantee your right to carry a gun into my home if I don't want you to. Similarly, businesses are able to say the same thing.


You are correct but there is a catch. A sign posting no guns is worthless. You can legally walk past them into a store with a gun if you are legally carrying. Now IF the owner or employee tells you to leave you must do so. However, if you do not leave you have not broken any "gun law" you can only be cited for trespassing.

I took an 8 hour course to get my CCW in NV & FL. The above statement is true in those two states and CA. I can not speak on the other states without referencing my book.


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

wontgetfooledagain said:


> Actually, I was referring to the possibility of the weapon being turned in the struggle and used on the driver. Fights don't happen like in the movies...


In close quarters as in a car, yes. That's why a melee weapon should also be at hand,



Christinebitg said:


> There's no law about it. They don't need a law to deactivate you. Just ask the drivers who have been DA'd as a result of bogus pax complaints.
> 
> C


Just because Uber does it does not make it legal or ethical.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

I have Dupont plastic explosives wired under the passenger seats.

I have a hidden reset button.

I feel sorry for any car jacker who would try to get away with my car . . .


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

Texie Driver said:


> not "their" car of course, az law is not on uber's side in this
> gun free workplaces cannot ban employees from keeping weapons in private cars in gun free workplace property parking lot.
> not uber's property or employee at all, i don't think the policy would survive a legal challenge here in the unlikely event one was brought.
> 
> ...


Uber's rules trump state laws. Caught with a weapon...you ate done.

Per your contract with Uber you cannot sue and must go thru arbitration. And you will loose.


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> Uber's rules trump state laws. Caught with a weapon...you ate done.
> 
> Per your contract with Uber you cannot sue and must go thru arbitration. And you will loose.


I opted out of arbitration.

What makes you think that any company's rules could possibly trump any law???


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Fargle said:


> I opted out of arbitration.
> 
> What makes you think that any company's rules could possibly trump any law???


Simple. You agree to them.

It's legal to smoke in your own home. Rent an apartment where the leasr says "No smoking", however, and you may find yourself evicted for breach of lease if you are caught.

Will you get a ticket or go to jail? Of course not. You'll need to find another place to live, though, and, depending on terms, may forfeit your security deposit in whole or part.

Perfectly legal.


----------



## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

TEXAS:

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

SECTION 1. Chapter 52, Labor Code, is amended by adding Subchapter G to read as follows:

SUBCHAPTER G. RESTRICTIONS ON PROHIBITING EMPLOYEE TRANSPORTATION OR STORAGE OF CERTAIN FIREARMS OR AMMUNITION

Sec. 52.061. RESTRICTION ON PROHIBITING EMPLOYEE ACCESS TO OR STORAGE OF FIREARM OR AMMUNITION. A public or private employer may not prohibit an employee who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, or who lawfully possesses ammunition from transporting or storing a firearm or ammunition the employee is authorized by law to possess in a locked, privately owned motor vehicle in a parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area the employer provides for employees.

In addition Texas no longer requires a person pulled over for a traffic stop to inform the peace officer that they are carrying a firearm.



Scott.Sul said:


> It is illegal to carry a concealed firearm in places that ban them.
> 
> If Uber says firearms are banned in "their" cars, and you decide to ignore it, it might open up charges against you.
> In NC, if you are pulled over you are required by law to inform the officer of your firearm. 99% the pax will be shocked and 100% chance you will be deactivated. Some pax might even try to sue you for "endangering their lives".... don't expect Uber to support you.
> ...


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Simple. You agree to them.
> 
> It's legal to smoke in your own home. Rent an apartment where the leasr says "No smoking", however, and you may find yourself evicted for breach of lease if you are caught.
> 
> ...


Still no comparison. You don't own the apartment, so you can't make that call. Bringing this back to guns, it's not legal anywhere in the US for a landlord to have a no-guns policy. Firearms ownership and carriage is an enumerated civil right. Smoking is not.


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Fargle said:


> Still no comparison. You don't own the apartment, so you can't make that call. Bringing this back to guns, it's not legal anywhere in the US for a landlord to have a no-guns policy. Firearms ownership and carriage is an enumerated civil right. Smoking is not.


To your first point, actually you don't own the property, but once your rent is paid, you do "own" the apartment for the allotted time.

In the scenario of an apartment lease that said no guns, obviously, no one's going to come and arrest you for having them in your apartment if they are properly registered, as that is your Civil Right. I'm not arguing that. You have not broken any laws in that regard. You would have, however, broken the terms of the lease agreement, and the landlord could put you out for it, and the courts would support them in doing that.

It's the same situation with Uber. It's not their car. It is, however, their brand, and their service of thinking drivers with passengers. They have certain rules for this, and flows drivers and passengers agree to these rules or they're unable to use the service.

Carry your gun if you wish. If you are abiding by the law, I'm not going to tell you you can't. Absolutely you can. If you are going to violate an agreement that you signed, however, you do need to be aware that that agreement can be pulled by the other party. Uber can deactivate you for violation of terms, and no judge is going to find in your favor for this.


----------



## RaleighUber (Dec 4, 2016)

Ubericator said:


> Do you carry any time of self-defense weapon?


Uber policy prohibits drivers from carrying firearms. I used to carry pepper spray, but if you use it on a passenger, you likely will be deactivated.



Scott.Sul said:


> It is illegal to carry a concealed firearm in places that ban them.
> 
> If Uber says firearms are banned in "their" cars, and you decide to ignore it, it might open up charges against you.




This is nonsense. Uber does not have a car. Rideshare drivers own vehicles and are "independent contractors" on the Uber platform. At worst, Uber can remove a driver from their platform for violating policy. They can't sue you...they are not present. They can't file criminal charges, they are not a victim.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

SuzeCB said:


> In the scenario of an apartment lease that said no guns, obviously, no one's going to come and arrest you for having them in your apartment if they are properly registered, as that is your Civil Right. I'm not arguing that. You have not broken any laws in that regard. You would have, however, broken the terms of the lease agreement, and the landlord could put you out for it, and the courts would support them in doing that.


Let me go a step further on this issue.

In Section 8 apartments, there's typically a requirement that no convicted felon can live in the apartment. Nobody says that felon can't rent their own place somewhere else.

But the person who rented the section 8 apartment can and does get evicted. My Significant Other has handled some of the court cases that have ordered those evictions.

Christine


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Christinebitg said:


> Let me go a step further on this issue.
> 
> In Section 8 apartments, there's typically a requirement that no convicted felon can live in the apartment. Nobody says that felon can't rent their own place somewhere else.
> 
> ...


I don't know about the specific housing issue. In NJ, we have a lack of affordable housing and Sect. 8 housing, so any rental properties, other than owner-occupied 2- or 3-family homes (maybe 4- ???) have to accept Sect. 8 vouchers. There are ways around it, of course, and these methods end up raising all the rents in the area to where Sect. 8 has to adjust and raise the amount they allow people, which costs EVERYONE more.

Anyway, I do know one person who is an ex-con who is on Sect. 8. And, yes, they know about it. It's different, though, if the crime happened in their home while on Sect. 8, or, whether or not they were receiving the benefits, on Sect. 8 housing property. Except drug-related. Even a $50 misdemeanor ticket for a little weed CAN get someone kicked off and banned from Sect. 8, no matter where the bust happened.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

SuzeCB said:


> It's different, though, if the crime happened in their home while on Sect. 8, or, whether or not they were receiving the benefits, on Sect. 8 housing property.


I can't speak to how it is run in New Jersey. In Texas, it doesn't matter where the crime was committed or when.

Christine


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

My response to a potential physical assault by pax is to stop the car, grab your phone and keys and get out and away from the car. Call 911, tell them what is happening. Also inform them you are carrying a weapon, what type it is, and that if the pax gets out of the car and comes for you and you are unable to get away, you are prepared to use your weapon on the pax.

As for Uber/ Lyft......I can get a new job. I can't get a new life.


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> To your first point, actually you don't own the property, but once your rent is paid, you do "own" the apartment for the allotted time.
> 
> In the scenario of an apartment lease that said no guns, obviously, no one's going to come and arrest you for having them in your apartment if they are properly registered, as that is your Civil Right. I'm not arguing that. You have not broken any laws in that regard. You would have, however, broken the terms of the lease agreement, and the landlord could put you out for it, and the courts would support them in doing that.
> 
> ...


Where are you getting the information that leads to your proclaimations? Nowhere on the US is it legal for a landlord to forbid renters from having guns or do anything to punish them for the same. NOT LEGAL. An illegal rule is not valid.

WTF do Section 8 rules have to do with any of this?



RaleighUber said:


> Uber policy prohibits drivers from carrying firearms. I used to carry pepper spray, but if you use it on a passenger, you likely will be deactivated.
> 
> This is nonsense. Uber does not have a car. Rideshare drivers own vehicles and are "independent contractors" on the Uber platform. At worst, Uber can remove a driver from their platform for violating policy. They can't sue you...they are not present. They can't file criminal charges, they are not a victim.


Uber will not deactivate you for using pepper spray. Just stand up for yourself. See my "carjacked" thread. In any case, it's not legal for them to make or enforce any rules against firearms or pepper spray. Ask them yourself to prove to you it's legal. They won't do it.


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Fargle said:


> Where are you getting the information that leads to your proclaimations? Nowhere on the US is it legal for a landlord to forbid renters from having guns or do anything to punish them for the same. NOT LEGAL. An illegal rule is not valid.
> 
> WTF do Section 8 rules have to do with any of this?
> 
> Uber will not deactivate you for using pepper spray. Just stand up for yourself. See my "carjacked" thread. In any case, it's not legal for them to make or enforce any rules against firearms or pepper spray. Ask them yourself to prove to you it's legal. They won't do it.


First, let me address the Section 8 issue. That was in response specifically to Christinebitg. I'm not going to get paid something said to someone else here with you.

As to my other statement, regarding landlords being able to forbid tenants from having guns, please allow me to direct you to several different websites regarding the matter.

https://realestate.usnews.com/real-...imits-can-your-landlord-put-on-gun-possession

https://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2017/08/can-my-landlord-ban-gun-ownership.html

https://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2018/05/nj_apartment_developer_bans_guns_in_building.html

https://americantenantscreen.com/can-landlords-prohibit-gun-ownership/

https://arpola.org/can-say-no-guns-rental-property/

https://www.buildium.com/blog/gun-rights-and-property-manager-rights/

The long and short of it is this: unless the particular State the property is in has a law on the books specifically banning them from doing so, the landlord may assert his or her property rights, and these will supercede a gun owners rights, so long as it is in the lease that the tenant has signed.

You may not like it, but this is how the courts have found.

For the record, I don't like this little fact either.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> WTF do Section 8 rules have to do with any of this


You brought up the issue of constitutional rights versus contractual obligations.

The ToS pertains to a contract. If you don't agree to them, you don't get on the app. If you think that you can later assert that you're not bound by the ToS, you are mistaken.

Christine


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> You brought up the issue of constitutional rights versus contractual obligations.
> 
> The ToS pertains to a contract. If you don't agree to them, you don't get on the app. If you think that you can later assert that you're not bound by the ToS, you are mistaken.
> 
> Christine


Right. And why is Section 8 relevant?



SuzeCB said:


> First, let me address the Section 8 issue. That was in response specifically to Christinebitg. I'm not going to get paid something said to someone else here with you.
> 
> As to my other statement, regarding landlords being able to forbid tenants from having guns, please allow me to direct you to several different websites regarding the matter.
> 
> ...


I read those (mostly outdated). What I get from them is that banning guns in rentals is explicitly illegal most places and quasi-legal elsewhere. In those elsewheres, you're asking for expensive trouble to ban guns.


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Fargle said:


> Right. And why is Section 8 relevant?
> 
> I read those (mostly outdated). What I get from them is that banning guns in rentals is explicitly illegal most places and quasi-legal elsewhere. In those elsewheres, you're asking for expensive trouble to ban guns.


How is 2018 outdated?

And the thing about Sect. 8 wasn't relevant to the exchange between you and me, as I pointed out. It was an offshoot of this between me and Christinebitg. You are the one that dragged it into our sub-topic, not me.


----------



## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> How is 2018 outdated?
> 
> And the thing about Sect. 8 wasn't relevant to the exchange between you and me, as I pointed out. It was an offshoot of this between me and Christinebitg. You are the one that dragged it into our sub-topic, not me.


Ah.

2018 isn't the outdated part. It's that the articles were working with outdated concepts, the most important being that gun ownership has been reaffirmed as a civil right.


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## Larry$$$ (Aug 27, 2018)

Can you load the gun with blanks so you can fire off multiple rounds in air without killing someone just to scare them.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Fargle said:


> Ah.
> 
> 2018 isn't the outdated part. It's that the articles were working with outdated concepts, the most important being that gun ownership has been reaffirmed as a civil right.


Of course it's a civil right. So are property rights, and the Supreme Court has upheld property rights as superseding gun rights. That's the point. Unless a particular state has actually made it illegal for them to do so, landlords do you have the right to say you cannot have guns on the property.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Larry$$$ said:


> Can you load the gun with blanks so you can fire off multiple rounds in air without killing someone just to scare them.


That just sounds like a bad idea.

If you need to draw on a passenger, you need to be prepared to use deadly force.

I don't carry a firearm. But if I did, taking it out of a purse or holster would be when my life is threatened.

Let's make matters worse. If you pull it out and it only has blanks in it, suppose your rider is armed. That weapon probably does NOT have blanks in it. You'll be the one who loses that shootout.

Christine


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## BCS DRIVER (Oct 25, 2018)

I will attempt to address carrying a gun as it pertains to ride share drivers in Texas. 
I am a lifelong resident of Texas.
I possess a License to Carry in Texas.

Texas is a Castle Doctrine State and a Stand Your Ground state.
Castle Doctrine: Your home is your castle. This extends to a vehicle owned by you. You may carry a loaded handgun, within reach, in both of these places without fear of prosecution.
Stand Your Ground: If presented with a life threatening or fear of imminent bodily harm situation a person has no duty to retreat. Defensive measures, including deadly force, are allowed under these circumstances without fear of prosecution, both criminal and civil.

These pertain to licensed and non licensed citizens. In years past it was a violation of law for a licensed person to not reveal to a peace officer when, if stopped by them, that you were armed. This law has changed whereby there is no duty to inform. Please note I said licensed. In the case of non-licensed I have no knowledge since it does not apply to me.

A prohibition by any company or corporation that says their employees/contractors/partners may not possess a handgun at their place of work ( their car in this case) does not trump state law and cannot result in prosecution by law enforcement. It can, and likely will, result in their dismissal.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lly-shoots-man-who-threatened-him/1142088002/

I doubt this driver is still driving for UBER. But he is alive.

My recommendation for any driver wishing to carry a handgun while on line and accepting rides:
1. Carry it on your person. Don't have it in the glove box or center console.
2. Why #1? If confronted with a violent situation with a pax pull over, take keys, you have the handgun already, get out of your vehicle, call 911.
3. If the pax gets out and then threatens to kill you or threatens imminent body harm you now have the justifiable means to defend yourself.

As for myself personally, I'd much rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

All true, BCS.

I think that the person arguing was not clear on one item you said:


BCS DRIVER said:


> It can, and likely will, result in their dismissal.


Christine


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Of course it's a civil right. So are property rights, and the Supreme Court has upheld property rights as superseding gun rights. That's the point. Unless a particular state has actually made it illegal for them to do so, landlords do you have the right to say you cannot have guns on the property.


Property rights mean freely exchanging property with other people. For example: I give you X dollars and you give me Y boxes of things. Civil rights, by definition, cannot be taken away unless the posessor is convicted in a court of law some crime. They cannot be signed away. That's all. Why is this such a tough concept for you?



BCS DRIVER said:


> A prohibition by any company or corporation that says their employees/contractors/partners may not possess a handgun at their place of work ( their car in this case) does not trump state law and cannot result in prosecution by law enforcement. It can, and likely will, result in their dismissal.


As I pointed out many times before, this power is contingent upon the rulemaker owning or at least renting the place of work. In numerous states, a worker's car parked in an employer's parking facilities is immune to such rules provided the guns are securely stowed.

An Uber driver's car doesn't even approach that scenario. The car is always on public property or areas where a random member of the public would be free to carry concealed arms provided that a permit, if required, is also carried. Uber and Lyft have the same rights to dictate weapons policy as my day job employer (I work at home) does; that is, none at all. But neither company will admit this nor will they tell you why their stance is correct other than by resorting to circular logic.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Fargle said:


> Property rights mean freely exchanging property with other people. For example: I give you X dollars and you give me Y boxes of things. Civil rights, by definition, cannot be taken away unless the posessor is convicted in a court of law some crime. They cannot be signed away. That's all. Why is this such a tough concept for you?
> 
> As I pointed out many times before, this power is contingent upon the rulemaker owning or at least renting the place of work. In numerous states, a worker's car parked in an employer's parking facilities is immune to such rules provided the guns are securely stowed.
> 
> An Uber driver's car doesn't even approach that scenario. The car is always on public property or areas where a random member of the public would be free to carry concealed arms provided that a permit, if required, is also carried. Uber and Lyft have the same rights to dictate weapons policy as my day job employer (I work at home) does; that is, none at all. But neither company will admit this nor will they tell you why their stance is correct other than by resorting to circular logic.


You must be right. You are just so much smarter than not only me, but also all of those judges and lawyers and lawmakers. Maybe you should run for King.


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## tjuber (Oct 26, 2018)

wontgetfooledagain said:


> When you take the CCW course there is a lengthy part of the course that goes over the legality of self-protection and the bottom line is that unless your life is in real danger, you will be the one who goes to jail if you use your gun. Someone can beat the shit out of you and if you shoot them, you are in trouble.
> 
> Something to keep in mind.


That is NOT true, if someone is beating the shit out of you, you have every right to defend yourself ( just don't shoot them in the back). Just find a good self defense lawyer, and carry self defense insurance if you have CCW.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> Why is this such a tough concept for you?


I have free speech guaranteed to me by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. But I signed an employment agreement with my previous employer, a Fortune 500 company. It says I can't contact their employees for a year, for the purpose of recruiting them to a new company.

If I violate that agreement with them, they can (and would) sue the daylights out of me. And they would win a large monetary judgement.

Do you see any similarities there?

Christine


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> I have free speech guaranteed to me by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. But I signed an employment agreement with my previous employer, a Fortune 500 company. It says I can't contact their employees for a year, for the purpose of recruiting them to a new company.
> 
> If I violate that agreement with them, they can (and would) sue the daylights out of me. And they would win a large monetary judgement.
> 
> ...


That's a non-compete clause and is usually illegal.



SuzeCB said:


> You must be right. You are just so much smarter than not only me, but also all of those judges and lawyers and lawmakers. Maybe you should run for King.


The fact you trotted out that strawman tells me you ran out of other arguments. There's nothing magic about this. All you need is good reading comprehension and a solid grounding in logic.


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## Clothahump (Mar 31, 2018)

Scott.Sul said:


> It is illegal to carry a concealed firearm in places that ban them.
> 
> If Uber says firearms are banned in "their" cars, and you decide to ignore it, it might open up charges against you..




It's not Uber's car, it's mine.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

SuzeCB said:


> You must be right. You are just so much smarter than not only me, but also all of those judges and lawyers and lawmakers.


Have judges and lawmakers actually decided that Ubers' policy in this regard is legal and/or constitutional, or is it just that their policy has never been challenged? This is a genuine question, not rhetorical.


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> Have judges and lawmakers actually decided that Ubers' policy in this regard is legal and/or constitutional, or is it just that it hasn't been challenged yet? This is a genuine question, not rhetorical.


There has been one case which was dismissed without prejudice on grounds that the plaintiff hadn't actually been deactivated.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> That's a non-compete clause and is usually illegal.


Don't bet on that. It's a legitimate contract and enforceable.

Do you have a basis for saying it's not enforceable? My Significant Other is a trial lawyer.

Christine


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> Don't bet on that. It's a legitimate contract and enforceable.
> 
> Do you have a basis for saying it's not enforceable? My Significant Other is a trial lawyer.
> 
> Christine


Labor attorneys who've won cases against non-competes as unconscienable. State laws forbidding them. Your SO should know this.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> Labor attorneys who've won cases against non-competes as unconscienable. State laws forbidding them. Your SO should know this.


Hahaha!!


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> Hahaha!!


Look it up. They're generally illegal in a lot if places. Okay in others. Overall it's a very scummy tactic.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

reg barclay said:


> Have judges and lawmakers actually decided that Ubers' policy in this regard is legal and/or constitutional, or is it just that their policy has never been challenged? This is a genuine question, not rhetorical.


It's a matter of contracts. Generally speaking, Constitutional Rights are protected from interference by the government, not independent parties or businesses unless specifically stated.

If you enter into a contract wherein you state that you agree not to carry or store your gun in a specific place and/or during a specific time, then you are bound by that agreement. No one is saying Uber can, or is, saying you can't own a gun or even bring it into your car. Just that you can't do so when using their app... And every driver agreed to that.

Now, if you do it anyway, and you have the necessary licensure, you can't be charged with any crime,because none occurred. You will have, however, breached your agreement, and be subject to a perfectly legal deactivation because of it.

It's not about the gun or gun rights (and I do support gun rights!). It's about contracts.

Back in the day, there were arguments floating around the chat rooms and message boards of AOL about how their restrictions on profanity, etc., infringed on First Amendment rights. Those arguments never held up because AOL was not a governmental entity but a private company, and because every time you signed in you agreed to abide by their TOS.

Same as here. The moderators of this forum can pull any post that violates the TOS here, and no one has a leg to stand on if they yell, "But, First Amendment Rights!!!"

Make sense?


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

SuzeCB said:


> Same as here. The moderators of this forum can pull any post that violates the TOS here, and no one has a leg to stand on if they yell, "But, First Amendment Rights!!!"


We still get get a good few of those "you violated my first first amendment rights" responses.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

reg barclay said:


> We still get get a good few of those "you violated my first first amendment rights" responses.


And how much water do they hold?


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> Overall it's a very scummy tactic.


In general, that may be true.

I think my former employer had a legitimate reason for it. They invest in their people and don't want me to recruit them away to the competition.

You could debate whether there may be a better way to do that, I guess.

Christine


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## NOXDriver (Aug 12, 2018)

Fargle said:


> Look it up. They're generally illegal in a lot if places. Okay in others. Overall it's a very scummy tactic.


Unless the non-compete is very specific, very short termed and give the employee something in return (like a benefits package) restricting the ability of a person right to find employment will be nullified.

I work in IT. If my company said I could not work in IT for 12 months after agreeing to the severance I would sign it and laugh in their face. COMPLETELY unenforceable. Now if they said that I could not work, due to trade secrets involved in my former position, at a direct competitor, for 90 days. That might stand.

Non-Competes are more of an honor system. If you are that important to even see one then you also are smart enough to have a lawdog read it.


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## Gilby (Nov 7, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> I think my former employer had a legitimate reason for it. They invest in their people and don't want me to recruit them away to the competition.


If the year is up, let's see if you can recruit some of them to drive for Uber. <g>

Here in Wisconsin, I have been told by our company attorney that non-competes are very hard to enforce. When I worked in the TV business, they were very common but seldom did any employer try to hold someone to it when they left. If I remember my business law correctly, they must have a time limit and a reasonable geographic limit.


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

NOXDriver said:


> Unless the non-compete is very specific, very short termed and give the employee something in return (like a benefits package) restricting the ability of a person right to find employment will be nullified.
> 
> I work in IT. If my company said I could not work in IT for 12 months after agreeing to the severance I would sign it and laugh in their face. COMPLETELY unenforceable. Now if they said that I could not work, due to trade secrets involved in my former position, at a direct competitor, for 90 days. That might stand.
> 
> Non-Competes are more of an honor system. If you are that important to even see one then you also are smart enough to have a lawdog read it.


This is exactly what I was thinking about when I wrote "unconscionable", but ran out of patience with my phone's keyboard.


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> In general, that may be true.
> 
> I think my former employer had a legitimate reason for it. They invest in their people and don't want me to recruit them away to the competition.
> 
> ...


As others have stated, they're generally unenforceable unless some compensation is made to the employee. The employee owes no fealty in return for training.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Good luck with all that, guys. I might be able to get away with it. But why lose sleep over trying?

And yes, I do happen to think a year is reasonable in my situation.

Besides, they're sending me a pension every month. Why not play along?

Christine


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> Good luck with all that, guys. I might be able to get away with it. But why lose sleep over trying?
> 
> And yes, I do happen to think a year is reasonable in my situation.
> 
> ...


You could have mentioned that pension and time limit at the beginning, Those are big ways how non-competes can be ethical and legal. Most of the anger over non-competes stem from the company offering little or nothing in return.

Closely related to non-competes are non-poaching agreements between companies. They seem to be growing among restaurant franchises and the affected workers have little clout to fight. I seem to recall Apple and Google recently getting busted for doing it.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> You could have mentioned that pension and time limit at the beginning, Those are big ways how non-competes can be ethical and legal. Most of the anger over non-competes stem from the company offering little or nothing in return.
> 
> Closely related to non-competes are non-poaching agreements between companies. They seem to be growing among restaurant franchises and the affected workers have little clout to fight. I seem to recall Apple and Google recently getting busted for doing it.


I agree with you on the non-poaching agreements. Those *have* been found to be illegal.

The reason I didn't mention the pension is because I didn't think it was relevant to the contractual issue we were discussing at the time.

Christine


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## RaleighUber (Dec 4, 2016)

Fargle said:


> In any case, it's not legal for them to make or enforce any rules against firearms or pepper spray. Ask them yourself to prove to you it's legal. They won't do it.


Did not say it was legal. I said that's what Uber would do based on their no guns policy. 
I don't ask Uber anything anymore. I have no relationship with them.


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

Fargle said:


> I opted out of arbitration.
> 
> What makes you think that any company's rules could possibly trump any law???


Arbitration has nothing to do with firearms and if you still think Uber or Lyft can not trump a state law....just give it a try and get caught or reported. DEACTIVATION!!


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> Arbitration has nothing to do with firearms and if you still think Uber or Lyft can not trump a state law....just give it a try and get caught or reported. DEACTIVATION!!


What makes you think that Uber or Lyft CAN defy state or federal laws?


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Fargle said:


> What makes you think that Uber or Lyft CAN defy state or federal laws?


I'm a strong supporter on the 2nd Amendment. One of the reasons for that is because I don't expect passing a law will stop criminals from carrying handguns.

Christine


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Christinebitg said:


> I'm a strong supporter on the 2nd Amendment. One of the reasons for that is because I don't expect passing a law will stop criminals from carrying handguns.
> 
> Christine


I feel like I'm listening to someone tell a joke that starts off with "I have Jewish friends". All you've been doing is attempt to justify stomping on the right of self-defense.


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## chris.nella2 (Aug 29, 2018)

Yeah...I’m strapped!!!


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

chris.nella2 said:


> Yeah...I'm strapped!!!


A three-winged Nerf batarang?


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## Mallan (Nov 9, 2018)

I always carry a weapon with me, just in case. And the resolution, too.


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