# Tires and brakes I recommend



## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

Let’s face it — your only control of your car depends on these two components. Drive any amount of time and you know there are times when you need every edge you can get.

Tires: I use Michelin Cross Climate 2’s. With a design optimized for wet /icy / slippery conditions you’re covered for the bulk of your situations. Yes, they have a snow rating, but I don’t consider their relatively tight tread suitable for ski slopes. Taking the factory 80,000 mile rated tires off and putting these on was like swapping heels for sneakers.

Brakes: When I did my brakes I replaced the factory rotors with “performance” rotors. That is, routers that were drilled and slotted. From the very first stop I noticed much better control of my braking and, in a pinch, quicker stops.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

No all weather tire will perform in winter like dedicated winter tires. 
I switch to Bridgestone Blizzaks every winter. They have amazing stopping and cornering qualities on snow and even glare ice. On typical white hard pack I do not engage anti locks at stoplights.

Your slotted rotors will help keep your brake pads clean which will improve their effectiveness. I suspect you also got high performance pads to go with your fancy rotors. Pad composition is a huge factor in how brakes work.

One thing people tend to ignore is that if you have antilock brakes on your car at a certain point they will negate any performance increase that comes from better brakes. 
As soon as a tire starts to lock up or slip the anti locks work by removing brake force from that tire. 
I cannot stop as straight if I shut off the anti locks but I guarantee I can stop sooner without them. 
Of course this means you have to be skilled with the brake pedal.


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## SinTaxERROR (Jul 23, 2019)

Atavar said:


> No all weather tire will perform in winter like dedicated winter tires.
> I switch to Bridgestone Blizzaks every winter. They have amazing stopping and cornering qualities on snow and even glare ice. On typical white hard pack I do not engage anti locks at stoplights.
> 
> Your slotted rotors will help keep your brake pads clean which will improve their effectiveness. I suspect you also got high performance pads to go with your fancy rotors. Pad composition is a huge factor in how brakes work.
> ...


Just to clarify what atavar is saying… The only purpose of anti locks is to keep vehicle as straight as possible when they are applied. This can be through the brake pedal or through traction control system as well. A common misconception is that anti locks stop you quicker, which is not true.


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## Uberdriver2710 (Jul 15, 2015)

You had me at "tires"


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Disregard with the brake "upgrade" BS talk which will most likely end up having drivers pay extra $$$ for no good reason.

If your "regular" brakes (solid rotors & pads) are maintained properly, you'll have all the braking power you need for city driving. I've been driving for 30+ years and never thought if I had slotted rotors ($$$) w/ ceramic pads ($$$) would've saved my ass.


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## Emptynesst (6 mo ago)

colamacy said:


> Disregard with the brake "upgrade" BS talk which will most likely end up having drivers pay extra $$$ for no good reason.
> 
> If your "regular" brakes (solid rotors & pads) are maintained properly, you'll have all the braking power you need for city driving. I've been driving for 30+ years and never thought if I had slotted rotors ($$$) w/ ceramic pads ($$$) would've saved my ass.


I’ve been driving for longer , and do my own work on my vehicles , vented rotors , and ceramic pads are def worth it , when needed they stop faster and last longer . My opinion after observing them in action . And the cost difference is negligible .


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Emptynesst said:


> I’ve been driving for longer , and do my own work on my vehicles , vented rotors , and ceramic pads are def worth it , when needed they stop faster and last longer . My opinion after observing them in action . And the cost difference is negligible .


"def worth it"? OK, make your case for drivers here. This should be a no brainer since according to you there is a noticeable improvement in performance with little to no cost over standard brakes.


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## Emptynesst (6 mo ago)

colamacy said:


> "def worth it"? OK, make your case for drivers here. This should be a no brainer since according to you there is a noticeable improvement in performance with little to no cost over standard brakes.


Yeah , I’m good . Parts cost more , but labor cost more over the life of the vehicle as you would have more labor cost if you use cheaper pads and rotors if you don’t dyi , actually doing it myself cost me more in parts , and if your wife and kids have lead feet , as mine do , provides more peace of mind and shorter stopping diostance and longer wear , I’m good with that .

Example : I could buy cheaper toilet paper , but I spend a little more so we don’t poke thru the tp as ya wipe 🤷‍♂️


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

Emptynesst said:


> Example : I could buy cheaper toilet paper , but I spend a little more so we don’t poke thru the tp as ya wipe 🤷‍♂️


Yes, Cheap is cheaper for a reason


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Emptynesst said:


> Yeah , I’m good . Parts cost more , but labor cost more over the life of the vehicle as you would have more labor cost if you use cheaper pads and rotors if you don’t dyi , actually doing it myself cost me more in parts , and if your wife and kids have lead feet , as mine do , provides more peace of mind and shorter stopping diostance and longer wear , I’m good with that .
> 
> Example : I could buy cheaper toilet paper , but I spend a little more so we don’t poke thru the tp as ya wipe 🤷‍♂️


You're good? Then why did you reply to my comment addressing Uber drivers in general?

Anyways you didn't throw out numbers to back up your "def worth it". 🤷‍♂️


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## Emptynesst (6 mo ago)

🙄 Did you get dropped a lot as a baby ?


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Thank you for making my point in that you really didn't have a point. 🚗👈👍


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## Emptynesst (6 mo ago)

colamacy said:


> Thank you for making my point in that you really didn't have a point. 🚗👈👍


Could you not understand these simple words ?


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

The questions folks seem to ask (in between rants) both start with “why.”
Tires: I don’t buy tires on expected life. If I did, perhaps the best would be made of diamonds. Naturally, ther would be no grip and the car would handle like a pig on ice ( even on a sunny day). No, tires are what connect your car to the road. Until now, you had two choices: summer tires and snow tires. While those are worthy uses, none of the industry standards directly addressed the specific issue of driving on wet pavement.
Michelin made history with their Cross Climate tires. Recalling the Goodyear Aquatread of the 1990’s, the design was developed with a focus on wet conditions. Testing show a tire that offers extremely good performance in both winter and summer, on dry pavement and in snow, and really shines in the wet. Cost compares to any other quality tire.

Brakes: Brake performance depends on how hot the brakes are. By the time most drives end, the brakes are only just reaching their highest temperatures. This is not true of someone who drives all day. Without a chance to cool down between trips, our brakes run hotter. There’s room for improvement over the OEM rotors.
Drilled rotors provide for better airflow, which means better cooling. Slotted rotors allow brake pad dust and gasses to escape, allowing better contact between the pads and the rotors. 
Sure, vendors can claim anything. My experience has persuaded me that the difference is both real and worthwhile.
Cost? For my car, the cheapest rotor & pad kit (both front wheels) costs $164. Using name brand parts the cost is $182. From the same manufacturer drilled and slotted costs $238. That’s a $72 spread from cheap Chines kludge to top of the line. Folks spend that much on cheap seat covers.
I report — you decide.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Karen Stein said:


> The questions folks seem to ask (in between rants) both start with “why.”
> Tires: I don’t buy tires on expected life. If I did, perhaps the best would be made of diamonds. Naturally, ther would be no grip and the car would handle like a pig on ice ( even on a sunny day). No, tires are what connect your car to the road. Until now, you had two choices: summer tires and snow tires. While those are worthy uses, none of the industry standards directly addressed the specific issue of driving on wet pavement.
> Michelin made history with their Cross Climate tires. Recalling the Goodyear Aquatread of the 1990’s, the design was developed with a focus on wet conditions. Testing show a tire that offers extremely good performance in both winter and summer, on dry pavement and in snow, and really shines in the wet. Cost compares to any other quality tire.
> 
> ...


None of that addresses performance on ice. Tires with a hard enough compound to survive a hot summer day will not have great performance on ice or packed snow. 
If the tires have a soft enough compound and sufficient siping to get traction on ice their treadlife at 100° will be very short. 
There really is not a good compromise on this. 
If you haven’t driven with an ice rated tire there is really no way for me to get you to understand or believe me. 
If you don’t live in the great white north it may be a non issue.


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

Actually, my post addresses ALL your concerns.
We’re not rubber chemists, and theories are cheap. What matters is actual performance. Even tests are valid only to the extent the results mirror reality.
Michelin successfully solved the riddle, if industry standard tests are any guide. The Cross Climate 2 tires pass snow and mud tests. They give superior braking on dry pavement and outstanding performance on wet pavement, ice, and wet icy pavement. As “all season” they’re suitable for summer use.
Please don’t take my word — look it up. Preferably before you shoot from the lip.

The same applies to brake data. It’s out there.

All my thread does is relay to you that my real world experience with these products confirms the test results.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

I do my research. The Michelins are rated very well for snow and mud, but not ice. If anyone is shooting from the lip it is you.
My wife actually has them on her Subaru Crosstek. She got them instead of the Blizzaks because she didn’t want to get another set of wheels or swap tires at season change.
The rubber compound on the Blizzaks is soft enough that if you run them at 70° or above they will have accelerated wear.
The Michelins are excellent tires on snow, but they do not perform nearly as well on ice or polished hard pack snow as the Blizzaks. This is very noticeable when we take the two cars out at the same time.
Perhaps you need to find independent ratings instead of relying on Michelin sales hype.
Another great winter ice tire is the Nokian Hakkapeliitta 9. I have a friend who has them and we have played in empty icy parking lots. We will stop within a foot or so of each other, starting from a dead stop is close and cornering traction on ice is very similar. The only problem with the Nokians is that they cost him 50% more than I paid for my Blizzaks.
What it boils down to is what I said at the beginning, a dedicated winter tire is better than an all season tire every time.
Again, I am not saying the cross Climates aren’t great tires. They are probably the best choice in the world for people like my wife that don’t want to have different tires for summer and winter, but on ice the Blizzaks beat them hands down.
Another great winter tire choice for those on more of a budget is the Cooper Weathermaster ice.


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## WI_Hedgehog (Aug 16, 2021)

The reason behind running cold-weather tires is pretty well covered, so I'll address rotors.

The quality of material they're cast with, thickness, structure, how they're cast...it all matters regarding wear and shedding heat. OEM are generally better than AutoZone rotors, though I now run commercial duty or taxi rotors depending on the vehicle, and soft "low-dust" commercial brake pads--I'd rather wear the pad than the rotor--pads are cheap and "easy" to replace, rotors not as much. This gives butter-smooth braking and great service life.

Generally that means Raybestos brand, commercial duty. sometimes EBC pads if Raybestos doesn't make them. OEM pads are also generally excellent if one looks at the non-biased testing.

I do my own work so the up-front price difference (about 20%) isn't that great all things considered, and therefore the payback is worth it. If your shop has a large markup on commercial parts (200% to 300%) this becomes a larger financial consideration.

Slotted/drilled--well, I'm not doing race-car speeds so it doesn't matter. As to my preference, it's not slotted or drilled, the reason being that's all area dirt/stones can get trapped and contribute to rotor wear, plus more smooth surface area and more mass tends to make for better heat absorption with less wear.

If you look at actual race cars, the rotors are cut in a way to absorb expansion due to heat, and the air ducts channel air to the rotors to cool them.











I'm not here to argue or win an argument, just contribute information you may [or may not] find helpful. If it doesn't work for you, do what does.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Blizzak Winter Tire Technology - Multi-Cell Tubes | Tires Plus


Watch to learn how Bridgestone Blizzak's tube multi-cell technology gives you more grip and bite in cold conditions. Shop snow tires at Tires Plus!




www.tiresplus.com





The "bite particles" are actually bits of silica that act like tiny studs on ice. 
Cooper does the same thing with ground walnut shells.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Emptynesst said:


> Could you not understand these simple words ?
> 
> View attachment 686969


Old fart, I'm asking you to provide additional information to back up your claim. Why be pissy about it?


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Cuz he don’t owe you nothing and don’t give a crap if you believe him. Lol


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## Emptynesst (6 mo ago)

colamacy said:


> Old fart, I'm asking you to provide additional information to back up your claim. Why be pissy about it?


👍


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Emptynesst said:


> 👍


Another old fart shut down.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> Cuz he don’t owe you nothing and don’t give a crap if you believe him. Lol


It's open season when you post publicly, especially when that old fart specifically addresses a person, wouldn't you agree Ms. I warp my car with covid food wrap?


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> It's open season when you post publicly, especially when that old fart specifically addresses a person, wouldn't you agree Ms. I warp my car with covid food wrap?


Go for it bad boy, if you think you’re man enough.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Another old fart shut down.


I don’t know who you think you shut down, just another one to iggy your ignorant rants.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> Go for it bad boy, if you think you’re man enough.


Asking and pushing for reasonable explanation is now being manly? I suppose an old fart like you who dress up a dog in a pink outfit would think that.


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## Emptynesst (6 mo ago)

colamacy said:


> Another old fart shut down.


Do you have daddy issues ? I’m not yo daddy 😉 Although I did travel a lot as a younger man, so, depending on where you were born, it’s always possible LMAO


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Asking and pushing for reasonable explanation is now being manly? I suppose an old fart like you who dress up a dog in a pink outfit would think that.


You want the name of my dog’s tailor so you can dress up in pink too? I’ll find it for you.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Emptynesst said:


> Do you have daddy issues ? I’m not yo daddy 🙄


He’s just another punk hiding behind a keyboard.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Emptynesst said:


> Do you have daddy issues ? I’m not yo daddy 😉 Although I did travel a lot as a younger man, so, depending on where you were born, it’s always possible LMAO


You're projecting now but at least we're getting somewhere. Tell me about your dad? When did he leave you and when was his last child support payment?


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> You want the name of my dog’s tailor so you can dress up in pink too? I’ll find it for you.


Selling your perv service here on this forum is against site policy, Ms. Saran Wrap.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> You're projecting now but at least we're getting somewhere. Tell me about your dad? When did he leave you and when was his last child support payment?


you had problems with your dad you say?


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Selling your perv service here on this forum is against site policy, Ms. Saran Wrap.


Lol.. poor little pink boy. Nobody cares what you think. No selling, I’ll give you a referral free of charge cuz you need it so bad and I feel sorry for you.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> Lol.. poor little pink boy. Nobody cares what you think.


Ms. Saran Wrap, if your emotionally abused dog could speak, it would tell you otherwise.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

What kind of a freak uses food wrap and think it'll help in preventing covid from getting them? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> What kind of a freak uses food wrap and think it'll help in preventing covid from getting them? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Lol. Poor little pink boy.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Ms. Saran Wrap, if your emotionally abused dog could speak, it would tell you otherwise.


Are you really that sad? We’ll help you.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

colamacy said:


> What kind of a freak uses food wrap and think it'll help in preventing covid from getting them? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





Atavar said:


> Lol. Poor little pink boy.


Found the freak!


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Found the freak!


Cool, invite him over!


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Found the freak!


Oh wait, you meant yourself. poor baby. We all feel sorry for you.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

To my brothers and sisters, let me remind you what those covid freaks did to our lives and the lives of children. Be like a pit bull tearing up a little freak covid dog by never letting them forget they messed up.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> To my brothers and sisters, let me remind you what those covid freaks did to our lives and the lives of children. Be like a pit bull tearing up a little freak covid dog by never letting them forget they messed up.


It’s ok if you messed up. We forgive you and feel sorry for you.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> It’s ok if you messed up. We forgive you and feel sorry for you.


Ms. Saran Wrap, do you still uber with your cloth mask on along with your food wrap partition in your car?


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Ms. Saran Wrap, do you still uber with your cloth mask on along with your food wrap partition in your car?


You want a cloth mask? You can get them cheap at WalMart.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

colamacy said:


> Ms. Saran Wrap, do you still uber with your cloth mask on along with your food wrap partition in your car?





Atavar said:


> You want a cloth mask? You can get them cheap at WalMart.


Another covid freak now ashamed to have been a "covid freak". Disgusting worms...


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Another covid freak now ashamed to have been a "covid freak". Disgusting worms...


You don’t have to be ashamed. Just forgive yourself and move on.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> You don’t have to be ashamed. Just forgive yourself and move on.


I see taking that 4th booster shot gave you dementia. GOOD. LMAO!!!


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> I see taking that 4th booster shot gave you dementia. GOOD. LMAO!!!


There are resources you can find to help you with your dementia. I hope they make your life better.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> There are resources you can find to help you with your dementia. I hope they make your life better.


Make sure to submit all of your covid booster shots documents. I'm sure then they'll accept your medicad for your dementia.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

I’m glad you have Medicaid for your dementia. It should make getting help easier.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> I’m glad you have Medicaid for your dementia. It should make getting help easier.


Looks like Ms. Saran Wrap's dementia has hit level 4 in severity. Now she's demanding her fifth booster shot.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

I wonder if that freak still wears a cloth mask in public.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> I wonder if that freak still wears a cloth mask in public.


You can get cloth masks cheap at WalMart. Stay safe!


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Ms. Saran Wrap, I'm going to have to ask you to stay 6 feet away and cover your fugly face with this cotton/polyester blend mask. It's for everyone's safety.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Looks like Ms. Saran Wrap's dementia has hit level 4 in severity. Now she's demanding her fifth booster shot.


Your medical provider can help you find the boosters you are looking for.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Ms. Saran Wrap, I'm going to have to ask you to stay 6 feet away and cover your fugly face with this cotton/polyester blend mask. It's for everyone's safety.


I am glad you understand the need for you to self distance. Stay safe!


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> I am glad you understand the need for you to self distance. Stay safe!


Do you have your vaccine card? If not I'm going to have to ask you to leave for everyone's safety.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Do you have your vaccine card? If not I'm going to have to ask you to leave for everyone's safety.


Your healthcare provider can get you a vaccine card.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> Your healthcare provider can get you a vaccine card.


Looks like yours is outdated. We need to see a valid vaccine card in the last 30 days. For everyone's safety we're going to have to ask you to leave.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Yes, you should get your vaccination card updated. I suggest you do so immediately.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

The sick thing is, I'm just playing out scenarios that ACTUALLY happened in 2020/2021 because of these covid jackals.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> The sick thing is, I'm just playing out scenarios that ACTUALLY happened in 2020/2021 because of these covid jackals.


It is a shame you feel compelled to replay bad scenarios. Perhaps your mental heath provider could help.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Covid jackals aren't particular bright nor are they courageous. See how they've scattered in 2022?


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Covid jackals aren't particular bright nor are they courageous. See how they've scattered in 2022?


I’m sorry you don’t feel bright or courageous. Maybe getting an education would help.


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## colamacy (Oct 25, 2021)

Atavar said:


> I’m sorry you don’t feel bright or courageous. Maybe getting an education would help.


People with dementia shouldn't feel sorry.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

colamacy said:


> Covid jackals aren't particular bright nor are they courageous. See how they've scattered in 2022?





colamacy said:


> People with dementia shouldn't feel sorry.


It is good you don’t feel the need to apologize for dementia. Are you getting help?


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Ok, time to go do stuff instead of playing with little kids. But first..

Want to see a magic trick? I’ll make Colamancy disappear…

Waves magic wand and utters the magic word — "Iggy!"


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## Diamondraider (Mar 13, 2017)

colamacy said:


> It's open season when you post publicly, especially when that old fart specifically addresses a person, wouldn't you agree Ms. I warp my car with covid food wrap?


Be nice. I remember when @oldfart first joined. He was a very young @oldfart


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## uber_312 (Dec 31, 2018)

Karen Stein said:


> Let’s face it — your only control of your car depends on these two components. Drive any amount of time and you know there are times when you need every edge you can get.
> 
> Tires: I use *Michelin Cross Climate 2’s.* With a design optimized for wet /icy / slippery conditions you’re covered for the bulk of your situations. Yes, they have a snow rating, but I don’t consider their relatively tight tread suitable for ski slopes. Taking the factory 80,000 mile rated tires off and putting these on was like swapping heels for sneakers.
> 
> Brakes: When I did my brakes I replaced the factory rotors with “performance” rotors. That is, routers that were drilled and slotted. From the very first stop I noticed much better control of my braking and, in a pinch, quicker stops.


Got them installed 2 weeks ago and they're great so far. Excellent grip, quiet, supple ride, and it feels like my suspension has been upgraded. And pretty good snow performance with only 2mm of tread!...

(1) Can a New Budget Tire Beat a Worn Premium Tire in the Dry, Wet and Snow? - YouTube


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## pwnzor (Jun 27, 2017)

Karen Stein said:


> factory 80,000 mile rated tires


What car comes with 80k tires on it? Please tell me, I'd love to know.


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

When I _bought_ my Yaris iA in 2018 the factory tires had such a rating. The car was also criticized by Consumers Reports for poor braking on wet pavement. The braking proved greatly with regular tires.

IMO, long life is the last thing you should strive for in tires. What good are tires after you spin off the road?


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

Gentlemen, I have asked the moderator to prune from this thread the infantile posts that contribute nothing to the discussion. Let’s act like adults.


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## uber_312 (Dec 31, 2018)

Karen Stein said:


> IMO, long life is the last thing you should strive for in tires.


Uber driver with 50K miles on his CC2s and he still has 5 - 6/32 (4 - 4.7mm) of tread left (7.94mm new). Impressive...
(5) Michelin Crossclimate 2s 50,000 Mile Review - YouTube



> What good are tires after you spin off the road?


During snow storms I usually only see SUVs in a ditch or in an accident because they have a false sense of security with AWD and drive way too fast (braking is seriously compromised too). Front wheel drive with winter tires is better than AWD with worn all seasons.


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