# Uber says car ownership is $.075/mi, expenses for its drivers are only $0.37/mi (?)



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4284822-uber-limitations-vehicle-ownership-replacement#alt2
_Exceprt from _
*Uber Limitations On Vehicle Ownership Replacement*
Seeking Alpha Aug. 12, 2019 10:46 AM ET
. . .
The customer vehicle ownership numbers in the Uber S-1 are extremely far apart from the Uber driver vehicle ownership numbers on Uber.com.

The S-1 cites a cost of 75 cents per mile for vehicle ownership when talking about ridesharing replacing personal vehicle ownership:

The American Automobile Association estimates the average cost of owning and operating an automobile in the United States in 2018 at 75 cents per mile.

The IRS shows 54.5 cents per mile as the standard rate to calculate deductible costs, so the 75 cent number seems high.

Results from the February 2018 MIT CEEPR Working Paper show that median rideshare driver costs are about 30 cents per mile.

An Uber Blog post based on an analysis by Jonathan Hall mentions an hourly expense range of up to $6.46 per hour when talking about the vehicle ownership cost for Uber drivers:
_A typical expense range is between $2.94 and $6.46 per hour, according to an analysis conducted late last year by Jonathan Hall, Uber's Head of Economic Research for Public Policy, and Alan Krueger, Professor of Economics and Public Affairs at Princeton University._

The above Jonathan Hall analysis goes on to say the following:
_For full-time drivers, we further assume that the car is used mostly for providing ride-sharing services, but partly for personal use. Specifically, fixed costs are spread across 35,000 business miles (approximately the distance one would travel in 2,000 hours of professional driving) and 15,000 personal miles._

Doing a little algebra, we see that 35,000 miles in 2,000 hours comes to 17.5 miles in 1 hour. So the high end of the Uber driver vehicle ownership expense range is $6.46 per hour or 37 cents per mile. *Uber is using an expense range of 37 cents per mile or less when making the argument that its drivers can make a decent wage* *and an expense number of 75 cents per mile when making the argument that personal vehicle ownership is expensive* relative to ridesharing. Maybe both the 37 cents on the low end and the 75 cents on the high end should be closer to the IRS number of 54.5 cents.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> https://seekingalpha.com/article/4284822-uber-limitations-vehicle-ownership-replacement#alt2
> _Exceprt from _
> *Uber Limitations On Vehicle Ownership Replacement*
> Seeking Alpha Aug. 12, 2019 10:46 AM ET
> ...


UBER SPEAK WITH FORKED TONGUE !


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## IR12 (Nov 11, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> https://seekingalpha.com/article/4284822-uber-limitations-vehicle-ownership-replacement#alt2
> _Exceprt from _
> *Uber Limitations On Vehicle Ownership Replacement*
> Seeking Alpha Aug. 12, 2019 10:46 AM ET
> ...


37 cents? I suspect it will be lowered when Uber discovers drivers will put up with this.


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## tmart (Oct 30, 2016)

Yes because company sponsored research never produces results in their own favor !????


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## Ignatz (Aug 3, 2019)

If u ran a company where disposable unlimited supply of nonemployees
would Allowed themselves Daily to be fiscally
abused
exploited
and used
allowing U to keep the bulk of revenues from their labors....

....As CEO, would u change anything, Other than squeezing more out of the disposable drivers?

Problem isn’t Uber
Problem is the drivers who continue to service Uber’s clientele ✔


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Seems to me that if people are writing off mileage the feds arent getting
tax money and ubers benefiting here.
Hey I'm a whistleblower !!!!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

The except is from a much longer article discussing the the bigger picture of autonomous vehicles and car ownership way into the future. Interesting stuff. But I'm not 100% certain that the author is being fair here using the two Uber "findings", ($.37 v $.75) because they were unrelated and from two different times in Uber's history. The Hall study declaring driver's costs at $.37 was from the Kalanick era (the blog post referred to above is from 9/17 - and the study predates even that). Dara K has brought an entirely different management approach to Uber. I'm not saying that Uber today wouldn't still use these numbers to speak out of both sides of its corporate mouth - just sayin' that, imo, it's far less likely.



25rides7daysaweek said:


> Seems to me that if people are writing off mileage the feds arent getting
> tax money and ubers benefiting here.
> Hey I'm a whistleblower !!!!


not sure you can call it whistleblowing to let IRS know that drivers are following the irs regs. hehe


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## Ignatz (Aug 3, 2019)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> Seems to me that if people are writing off mileage the feds arent getting
> tax money and ubers benefiting here.
> Hey I'm a whistleblower !!!!


Actually it sounds like you're "blowing the whistle" on yourself, the non tax payer while begging for an audit


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

The thing is...

Even at 37c a mile in costs....

You need a _*69%*_ paid mileage ratio to *break even* in Orlando, add 8c a minute and it's impossible to make min wage here even with 69% paid mileage.

(for the record, i average about 30-35% paid miles and i've been a pro level driver in orlando for almost a decade.)


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## Lee239 (Mar 24, 2017)

Because they assume you are gifting them your car to use as a payday loan, and you are Blanche.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

My wife drives a leased Honda hybrid. About 650 miles per month 
Payments at $403/mo
Gas $30/ mo
Car wash $30/ mo 
Insurance $200/mo

So about a dollar per mile

I drive a midsize suv almost 100% for hire
It’s paid for and 100% depreciated I get 20 mpg and drive 70000 miles per year I budget $3500/yr maintenance and repairs and spend about $10000 on gas. My insurance is $5000/yr. so about $18500/yr total

My expenses are 25 cents per mile


Based on my example , Uber’s numbers seem pretty good 

But even so I can’t convince my wife to pay me to drive her around town. My sense is that folks that can afford their own car will own their own car even if it’s in the garage most of the time. So the exact numbers don’t matter


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

I only pay for rides when i'm too intoxicated to drive.

Reality is...

If i keep my car until it's past 150,000 miles (which i have on ever vehicle i've ever owned) i'll save money VS a FOR PROFIT for-hire service.

no unpaid miles to cover, no corporate taxes, no driver to pay, same expenses per loaded mile (if you own your own car all miles are loaded driving yourself)

The simple truth is that if someone is CLAIMING that using their car service is cheaper than owning they are full of it, or there is something really shady going on.

In uber's case it's both.


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## tmart (Oct 30, 2016)

Its all good until you trade in your 200-250K miles + car. Good luck with that. 

Btw... Didnt Harvard or MIT do a study also?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> I only pay for rides when i'm too intoxicated to drive.
> 
> Reality is...
> 
> ...


 not that I buy into the whole give up your car and use Rideshare thing, but clearly you have never lived in Los Angeles, Boston, Chicago, or New York where it is not uncommon to pay $500+ a month for the privilege of parking at your own home or office! :smiles:


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> not that I buy into the whole give up your car and use Rideshare thing, but clearly you have never lived in Los Angeles, Boston, Chicago, or New York where it is not uncommon to pay $500+ a month for the privilege of parking at your own home or office! :smiles:


How many people in the US actually live in one of those places?

It's not the majority, the majority live in the suburbs in a house with a driveway.

Even the lowest jobs around here include parking for staff and even the slummiest slums include parking. Except for a handful of downtown garages orlando is virtually all free parking. And Take Disney out of the equation and more of the country looks like Orlando-ish than it looks like NYC.

Rent in Orlando is less than a parking spot in some of the cities you mentioned.

Not even joking.

And those cities you list, the actually have public transit that works. I've lived in many places around the US while i was in the Army, Non existent public transit is far more common than quality public transit.

In NYC it's possible to get around without a car, in Orlando my DAILY commute downtown (to pick up a taxi, but that's beside the point) would come to $40 on _*uber*_, with it being involving a couple of miles on the shoelace express if i went by public transit.

The cost of doing that every day would be more than rent on a livable apartment around here.

And keep in mind, this is the CURRENT ORLANDO uber rates.

It's only a 20-25 minute drive, which in the world of commuting is a fairly short distance.

https://www.governing.com/gov-data/car-ownership-numbers-of-vehicles-by-city-map.html
On this list,

You go 2 cities down and your already over half of households having a car,
Only the top 15 cities have over 1/4 of households without a car.

Well over half of the cities on that list are over 90%

The halfaway point?
7% without a car,

Orlando?

Over halfway up the list by % with 8.2%

That puts Orlando as above the median % of households without a car,.


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## wearenotthesame (Aug 9, 2019)

i fill up the tank, take an airport ride, deadhead back fill up the tanks again thats $8 add $2 for future repairs thats $10 an hour to operate a 10+ year old vehicle worth 3k with 230K miles on it at 22mpg

1.26 mile xl only think ive only did 10 .60 mile x, 20 1.10 x its crazy to me "adults" are picking up those requests but alas 96% fail for a reason

a 2015+ gonna be cheaper i dont think so lol

adults outside of ny own cars
do not share oxgyen time or ideas with "adults" that dont own cars

what can they do for you?
they cant even give you a ride if you need ine lmao completely useless in 99% of america

even uber drivers at 1970s wages can own a car 35% work hard enough to least rent one, walmart, McDonald employees can adford cars what possible reason do they have beside lazy

i haven't carried on a convo with an "adult" that doesn't own a car for 30+ years why? it makes no sense only a slave idiot would not want a car, can you get attention from the opposite sex as an "adult" that cant afford something a 16 year old with 3 months of summer hustle can afford?

where are these "adults" i didnt even know they existed.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

oldfart said:


> My wife drives a leased Honda hybrid. About 650 miles per month
> Payments at $403/mo
> Gas $30/ mo
> Car wash $30/ mo
> ...


Your gas costs alone for your SUV are 12.5 cents a mile. ($2.50 gallon divided by 20 mpg). Always start with your fuel costs. It's the easiest number to figure out. Your insurance cost is 7.14 cents a mile. Your maintenance is 5 cents a mile. You have not included any capital cost of the vehicle because you say it is paid for. However you did not obtain the vehicle at no charge. There was a cost and there will be a cost to replace it which you are ignoring.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Bob Reynolds said:


> Your gas costs alone for your SUV are 12.5 cents a mile. ($2.50 gallon divided by 20 mpg). Always start with your fuel costs. It's the easiest number to figure out. Your insurance cost is 7.14 cents a mile. Your maintenance is 5 cents a mile. You have not included any capital cost of the vehicle because you say it is paid for. However you did not obtain the vehicle at no charge. There was a cost and there will be a cost to replace it which you are ignoring.


I don't need a lesson in figuring my expenses. I've been doing this (spending money to make money) for a long time

I have considered depreciation. As I said in my post, the car is paid for and fully depreciated I started with an $18000 car and have driven it 130000 miles. At 15 cents a mile it's now fully depreciated And I have considered the replacement cost as I built a savings account at exactly the same rate as my depreciation schedule. I am prepared to buy a new car whenever the mood strikes me, but in the meantime as long as I continue to drive this car, my depreciation expense is $0

As to the other expenses gas at 12.5 cents a mile (good work with the 3rd grade math, but it dosent matter which of my expenses I start with because a+b=b+a)

Insurance 7.4 cents a mile

Maintenance and repairs 5cents a mile

So the grand total is pretty close to 25 cents a mile

Even if I was still depreciating the car at the rate of 15 cents a mile my costs would only be 40 cents a mile. That's more than the uber average number but still a whole lot less than the AAA 75 cents a mile or even the IRS number

All of which makes a case for replacing ownership of a car with Uber for a whole lot of people, like my wife


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## tmart (Oct 30, 2016)

oldfart said:


> I don't need a lesson in figuring my expenses. I've been doing this (spending money to make money) for a long time
> 
> I have considered depreciation. As I said in my post, the car is paid for and fully depreciated I started with an $18000 car and have driven it 130000 miles. At 15 cents a mile it's now fully depreciated And I have considered the replacement cost as I built a savings account at exactly the same rate as my depreciation schedule. I am prepared to buy a new car whenever the mood strikes me, but in the meantime as long as I continue to drive this car, my depreciation expense is $0
> 
> ...


Staaaawwwwwp ! Thats not the only way business expenditures are calculated. Its called a *spreadsheet*. Also - Good luck with trading in that vehicle with 250k+ also.

ex. Profit = 600 this week driving 40 hours minus expenditures (divided by 4 weeks). Such as *Insurance *40.00 , *fuel *100.00, *cleaning *20.00 (car wash + supplies) , *Maintenance *this month 50.00. So now your left with 360 profit, which = 9.00 per hour. Hopefully you wont need to brakes, alt, battery, or a real repair also.

This is the new reality.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

wearenotthesame said:


> i fill up the tank, take an airport ride, deadhead back fill up the tanks again thats $8 add $2 for future repairs thats $10 an hour to operate a 10+ year old vehicle worth 3k with 230K miles on it at 22mpg
> 
> 1.26 mile xl only think ive only did 10 .60 mile x, 20 1.10 x its crazy to me "adults" are picking up those requests but alas 96% fail for a reason
> 
> ...


I've picked up adults who don't own cars before.

However that mostly includes blind people and people who are too old to drive so...

Not sure if I can count that or not?

But even in the hood in the worst apartment complexes there's always cars parked... always...


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

tmart said:


> Staaaawwwwwp ! Thats not the only way business expenditures are calculated. Its called a *spreadsheet*. Also - Good luck with trading in that vehicle with 250k+ also.
> 
> ex. Profit = 600 this week driving 40 hours minus expenditures (divided by 4 weeks). Such as *Insurance *40.00 , *fuel *100.00, *cleaning *20.00 (car wash + supplies) , *Maintenance *this month 50.00. So now your left with 360 profit, which = 9.00 per hour. Hopefully you wont need to brakes, alt, battery, or a real repair also.
> 
> This is the new reality.


Why would I trade it in. I've already said it's not worth anything.. ie it's fully depreciated. There is nothing in my posts where I claimed my car will have any salvage value. I had to pay someone to tow my last car away

But You make my point,,, We are talking about expenses in this thread; not income. I'm not saying uber drivers make a lot of money,That's an altogether different topic. What I'm saying is that the article in question is correct, (at least in my experience) Our expenses are less than the expenses of many car owners. 
That our net income is crap, makes using uber rather than owning a car possible for a lot of people

Now to follow up on your off topic post
$9 an hour for 70 hours a week is better than $15an hour for 40 hours a week. I watched a tv show recently that exposed amazons exploitation of their warehouse workers workers. Sure they get $15 an hour, but they walk something like 15 miles a day. Sorry I can't do that nor would I want to. I'd rather be exploited by uber


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## wearenotthesame (Aug 9, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> I've picked up adults who don't own cars before.
> 
> However that mostly includes blind people and people who are too old to drive so...
> 
> ...


only excuse for not owning a car over 18 is if you own a house/condo, are blind, disabled, and so old you cant drive

or of course lazy, junkie, alcoholic, generally losers

outside of ny or cities where public transportation is great and only 1 outta 4 states i lived in did fit the bill & i still owned a car it just sat in the garage months at a time between fill ups because. adult,

why anyone wouldnt want the freedom to go 400+ miles in any direction for $50 & another 400+ for another $50 is beyond me,

if an adult capable of driving can afford one they buy one because its one of the products that literally changed the course of human history its the definition of freedom or stay on your plantation or zip code needing internet, phone,credits, apps, electricity just to go 2+miles & hope a stranger is living in their car nearby or the robot survelling every inch of your neighborhood isnt busy with a premier client

natural disasters are going to be a hoot in the future LMAO just stay home & die wildfire hurricane blizzars tornado flood surge gonna be a whammy haha just stay home die

if you cant afford to come up with 10-15$ a day as an adult or are so whacked out you run people over everytime you drive, thats simply pathetic & i want nothing to do with you

i understand hard times too suck it up & catch the bus you cant afford a car you cant afford a chauffeur can't even afford a scooter foh you have car notes on phones lmao no wonder these skinny jeans dudes all gay no respectable woman over 18 messing with someone that cant even stack for a car

now get off my lawn



oldfart said:


> Why would I trade it in. I've already said it's not worth anything.. ie it's fully depreciated. There is nothing in my posts where I claimed my car will have any salvage value. I had to pay someone to tow my last car away
> 
> But You make my point,,, We are talking about expenses in this thread; not income. I'm not saying uber drivers make a lot of money,That's an altogether different topic. What I'm saying is that the article in question is correct, (at least in my experience) Our expenses are less than the expenses of many car owners.
> That our net income is crap, makes using uber rather than owning a car possible for a lot of people
> ...


life tip theres charities that will come pick up your vehicle tow it away & you can write 500 off its been a while but my last car went till the wheels would only worknin reverse not off but wasnt worth a trans & it put 15 good years in


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## Asificarewhatyoudontthink (Jul 6, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> https://seekingalpha.com/article/4284822-uber-limitations-vehicle-ownership-replacement#alt2
> _Exceprt from _
> *Uber Limitations On Vehicle Ownership Replacement*
> Seeking Alpha Aug. 12, 2019 10:46 AM ET
> ...


No, the 0.545 is the deduction from taxable income based on Depreciation/repairs/fuel. This has nothing to do with the cost of Owning a vehicle Loan/insurance/repairs/fuel.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

about 25% of the population is baby boomer. And we are living longer than past generations. So every day there are more people giving up their cars some because they can’t drive safely any more and others to save the money 

There are a lot of two car families. I think most could give up one of them with little inconvenience. If money gets a little tight I can see a lot of folks giving up one car and using uber when two cars are needed


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## tmart (Oct 30, 2016)

oldfart said:


> Why would I trade it in. I've already said it's not worth anything.. ie it's fully depreciated. There is nothing in my posts where I claimed my car will have any salvage value. I had to pay someone to tow my last car away
> 
> But You make my point,,, We are talking about expenses in this thread; not income. I'm not saying uber drivers make a lot of money,That's an altogether different topic. What I'm saying is that the article in question is correct, (at least in my experience) Our expenses are less than the expenses of many car owners.
> That our net income is crap, makes using uber rather than owning a car possible for a lot of people
> ...


Most people I know that uber to and from work everyday spend about 4 to $500 a month, ya ... that is comparable to a car payment and It's associated expenses


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> How many people in the US actually live in one of those places?
> 
> It's not the majority, the majority live in the suburbs in a house with a driveway.
> 
> ...





Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> How many people in the US actually live in one of those places?
> 
> It's not the majority, the majority live in the suburbs in a house with a driveway.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with anything you posted but I think you completely missed the point. It's not all or nothing. Markets are targeted.


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> https://seekingalpha.com/article/4284822-uber-limitations-vehicle-ownership-replacement#alt2
> _Exceprt from _
> *Uber Limitations On Vehicle Ownership Replacement*
> Seeking Alpha Aug. 12, 2019 10:46 AM ET
> ...


Lyft and Uber drivers are leeches on society. Aside from being slave labor they are actually costing tax payers over $80 each. That's lyft alone. I flip off all drivers at this point. Rideshare drivers are ******ed.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> No, the 0.545 is the deduction from taxable income based on Depreciation/repairs/fuel. This has nothing to do with the cost of Owning a vehicle Loan/insurance/repairs/fuel.


 I never said otherwise. In fact, I've preaching here for 2 years that drivers should stop trying to use the standard deduction rate as their actual cost of driving.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

oldfart said:


> Why would I trade it in. I've already said it's not worth anything.. ie it's fully depreciated. There is nothing in my posts where I claimed my car will have any salvage value. I had to pay someone to tow my last car away
> 
> But You make my point,,, We are talking about expenses in this thread; not income. I'm not saying uber drivers make a lot of money,That's an altogether different topic. What I'm saying is that the article in question is correct, (at least in my experience) Our expenses are less than the expenses of many car owners.
> That our net income is crap, makes using uber rather than owning a car possible for a lot of people
> ...


Walking 15 miles a day is much healthier than sitting in a car.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> Lyft and Uber drivers are leaches on society. Aside from being slave labor they are actually costing tax payers over $80 each. That's lyft alone. I flip off all drivers at this point. Rideshare drivers are @@@@@@ed.


Where and how did you come up with that $80 number?


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Ignatz said:


> If u ran a company where disposable unlimited supply of nonemployees
> would Allowed themselves Daily to be fiscally
> abused
> exploited
> ...


It's not just drivers that get raped. They (drivers) cost the nation over 20 billion a year in lost revenue and expenses. Drivers are leaches on society.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> Where and how did you come up with that $80 number?


11 billion in lost revenue and over 9 billion in social welfare. Drivers don't pay tax and they use free services. The middle class is left to pickup the tab.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> It's not just drivers that get raped. They (drivers) cost the nation over 20 billion a year in lost revenue and expenses. Drivers are leaches on society.
> 
> 
> 11 billion in lost revenue and over 9 billion in social welfare. Drivers don't pay tax and they use free services. The middle class is left to pickup the tab.


I asked where you got your numbers, not for you to make up some more! If drivers are leeches because they can offset income with expenses what does that make the corporation's of our nation?


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I asked where you got your numbers, not for you to make up some more! If drivers are leeches because they can offset income with expenses what does that make the corporation's of our nation?


Nazi, fascist, cum dumps.



AngelAdams said:


> Nazi, fascist, cum dumps.


Lyft and Uber are predatory sub prime employers. Anyone that drives for them is just as guilty. They are literally driving the getaway car.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> I asked where you got your numbers, not for you to make up some more! If drivers are leeches because they can offset income with expenses what does that make the corporation's of our nation?


America is not a capitalistic democratic nation anymore. We live in a corporatism. Corporations control everything and everyone.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> Nazi, fascist, cum dumps.
> 
> 
> Lyft and Uber are predatory sub prime employers. Anyone that drives for them is just as guilty. They are literally driving the getaway car.


guess you just don't much like 'merika & kapitalism, eh?


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> guess you just don't much like 'marika & kapitalism, eh?


I love America and am a hardcore capitalist. Unfortunately America is a fascist neo Nazi corporatism now. Capitalism is basically deAd.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> Nazi, fascist, cum dumps.
> 
> 
> Lyft and Uber are predatory sub prime employers. Anyone that drives for them is just as guilty. They are literally driving the getaway car.
> ...


yes, so?


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> yes, so?


So stop driving for these companies.


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## SOLA-RAH (Dec 31, 2014)

Here’s the sweet spot: 
2015 Ford Focus, long been paid-off, free parking, 30 mpg. Casual but a cherry-picking driver, about 15000 miles/yr & earning ~$1.25 per every mile driven, centrally located in a major busy market (resulting in zero wasted miles by always come back home on a filter).
Spending yearly:
$1250 gas
$550 insurance(USAA w/ rideshare coverage)
$200 oil/filter/fluids/car washes
$500 yearly tune-up, maintenance 
$500 Maintenance spread out over a few years (brakes/tires, etc.)

$3000/15000 miles = 20¢/mile for expenses
If your operating expenses are more than 30¢/mile & 50+% dead miles, then it will be almost impossible to be profitable at this gig. These drivers with gas guzzling vehicles, multiple daily deadheads straight back an airport queue, or localities with pay rates <60%/mile have to be losing money.

As for uber’s 75¢/mile figure, when you add in a new car lease payment, higher insurance/maintenance costs, and paying for parking at work and/or home, I can see how uber got to that 75¢/mile figure.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Two different issues here. I think Uber is purposely mixing things up to its benefit.

*"The S-1 cites a cost of 75 cents per mile for vehicle ownership when talking about ridesharing replacing personal vehicle ownership."*

1) Ownership cost to John Q. Public for personal vehicle. .75 CPM.

2) Cost to John Q. Public to use an Uber instead of ownersip of personal vehicle. .37 CPM.

Since Uber only pays for miles with pax in car the .37 cost per mile could be true. Because John Q. Public doesn't pay for dead miles.

Drivers pay for dead miles.

37 + .37 = 74

If Uber tosses out the dead miles which are roughly 50% you would come up with 37 Cents Per Mile instead of .75 CPM.

Since this is supposed to be a comparison to owning a vehicle versus using an Uber they're comparing apples to oranges.

Number 1 is an expense to own a car by John Q Public.

Number 2 is an expense by uber driver is not relevant to comparing cost to John Q. Public because dead miles are not included in the .37 CPM.

Like I said earlier, dead miles are paid by the driver not John Q. Public.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> So stop driving for these companies.


if you don't drive, and don't like driving or drivers, what are you doing here?



observer said:


> Like I said earlier, dead miles are paid by the driver not John Q. Public.


I could make the argument that since dead miles driven by a Rideshare driver are deductible as a business expense that in fact the public in the long run does pay for them. I"m not saying I agree with that argument, but I could certainly make it! LOL



SOLA-RAH said:


> Here's the sweet spot:
> 2015 Ford Focus, long been paid-off, free parking, 30 mpg. Casual but a cherry-picking driver, about 15000 miles/yr & earning ~$1.25 per every mile driven, centrally located in a major busy market (resulting in zero wasted miles by always come back home on a filter).
> Spending yearly:
> $1250 gas
> ...


Your insurance cost as stated is too high. Only the portion attributable to Rideshare specifically would be your business expense. If you owned of the car but did not drive Rideshare, you would still have to pay your regular insurance bill.

On the other side of your equation, you are not including depreciation. The fact that a car is paid off is irrelevant. How much you paid for it, how much you drove it, and its age and current value are what determine depreciation.

But overall, you're spot on. :smiles:


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> if you don't drive, and don't like driving or drivers, what are you doing here?
> 
> 
> I could make the argument that since dead miles driven by a Rideshare driver are deductible as a business expense that in fact the public in the long run does pay for them. I"m not saying I agree with that argument, but I could certainly make it! LOL
> ...


Very true, in the end John Q. Public, Maria Q. Public, Jane Q. Public. Peter Q. Public and Jose Q. Public wind up subsidizing John Q. Publics fare.


----------



## Asificarewhatyoudontthink (Jul 6, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I never said otherwise. In fact, I've preaching here for 2 years that drivers should stop trying to use the standard deduction rate as their actual cost of driving.


No, you are trying to state that the ownership costs are the same as the operation cost. That is not the same. Operation costs is Part of Ownership and the calculations are not the same.


----------



## bpm45 (May 22, 2017)

oldfart said:


> My wife drives a leased Honda hybrid. About 650 miles per month
> Payments at $403/mo
> Gas $30/ mo
> Car wash $30/ mo
> ...


If the vehicle is paid for and 100% depreciated, do you have the money set aside to replace the vehicle? In a true economic analysis you have to include something for vehicle replacement (amortization) each year. Even if tax laws allow you to depreciate it faster than the true vehicle life, you must consider that depreciation to have occurred over the true life.


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> No, you are trying to state that the ownership costs are the same as the operation cost. That is not the same. Operation costs is Part of Ownership and the calculations are not the same.


Ownership costs include operations and the irs number includes both the cost of the vehicle and the cost to operate it

But that number has nothing todo with anyone's actual costs (of ownership and operations)



bpm45 said:


> If the vehicle is paid for and 100% depreciated, do you have the money set aside to replace the vehicle? In a true economic analysis you have to include something for vehicle replacement (amortization) each year. Even if tax laws allow you to depreciate it faster than the true vehicle life, you must consider that depreciation to have occurred over the true life.


The cost of my current car and my future car are likely to be different, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume that they are the same. I've been preaching to anyone that will listen that depreciation is not important except once a year at tax time. What's important is setting money aside for repair and ultimately replace your car.

I came to this with a paid for car and enough money in the bank to replace it. And since, by the time I wear out a second car I'll be over 80 years old and hopefully completely retired ; I really don't need to plan for a third car

So that's my situation And every bodies situation is different. The point is that most of us have to be prepared or get prepared to buy another car. But there a lot of different ways to do that. The obvious one is to set aside something each month in a reserve account. But if you know you can finance a new car all you have to save is the down payment

I think the best way to prepare is to save at the same rate you depreciate. For me that would be 10 cents a mile ($20000 depreciated over 200000 miles)


----------



## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> if you don't drive, and don't like driving or drivers, what are you doing here?
> 
> 
> I could make the argument that since dead miles driven by a Rideshare driver are deductible as a business expense that in fact the public in the long run does pay for them. I"m not saying I agree with that argument, but I could certainly make it! LOL
> ...


I used to. This forum is the only thing I've kept. I usually check in a couple time a week to see what y'all are upto. Unfortunately I see week after week of pay cuts and government welfare. I just don't understand the mentality of a current raideshare driver. 
You guys are not making money but more and more of you are driving. The streets are filled with you people. The vast majority are white middle aged men. I'll say it again WTF is wrong with you people? Y'all are addicted and I wonder what it would take to wake you people up???


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

AngelAdams said:


> I used to. This forum is the only thing I've kept. I usually check in a couple time a week to see what y'all are upto. Unfortunately I see week after week of pay cuts and government welfare. I just don't understand the mentality of a current raideshare driver.
> You guys are not making money but more and more of you are driving. The streets are filled with you people. The vast majority are white middle aged men. I'll say it again WTF is wrong with you people? Y'all are addicted and I wonder what it would take to wake you people up???


What would it take to wake me up??

Find me a job where I can come and go as I please, work as much as I want, or as little and make $3000 a month after taxes and I'll wake up for that


----------



## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

oldfart said:


> What would it take to wake me up??
> 
> Find me a job where I can come and go as I please, work as much as I want, or as little and make $3000 a month after taxes and I'll wake up for that


$3000 a month ahhhahahahahahhahahah



oldfart said:


> What would it take to wake me up??
> 
> Find me a job where I can come and go as I please, work as much as I want, or as little and make $3000 a month after taxes and I'll wake up for that


On a side note, you can't make 3 k and come and go. Make up your mind cuz your mouth is doing the shitting.


----------



## O-Side Uber (Jul 26, 2017)

oldfart said:


> about 25% of the population is baby boomer. And we are living longer than past generations.
> 
> Do you believe that Alan Shepard played golf on the moon? A lot of the boomers believe what they saw on tv ?


----------



## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

So move to Arizona and leave us the **** alone. You nasty old farts need to die sooner.


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

AngelAdams said:


> $3000 a month ahhhahahahahahhahahah
> 
> 
> On a side note, you can't make 3 k and come and go. Make up your mind cuz your mouth is doing the shitting.


The freedom to come and go as I please is one thing and making $3000 a month Is another. . And I understand that I can't chose not to work and still make $3000. I can however chose not to make $3000.

In fact I have made that decision this month I'm bugging out of the heat and humidity of SW Florida in favor of the heat and humidity of Washington DC try that with your 9 to 5



AngelAdams said:


> So move to Arizona and leave us the @@@@ alone. You nasty old farts need to die sooner.


 Leave "us" alone? Come on, this is a rideshare driver forum; you are the outsider here

And yea, we old farts are going to die sooner rather than later.... but so are you.



AngelAdams said:


> The streets are filled with you people. The vast majority are white middle aged men.


What the hell does this mean. Are you suggesting that white people are above this job? Or this is the best a non white can hope for? Or what?


----------



## UberProphet? (Dec 24, 2014)

oldfart said:


> And yea, we old farts are going to die sooner rather than later....


The three favorite sayings of OLDFART

1) "Stay off my Lawn!"
2) "When I was a boy...."
3) "If I was the King...."

He spends his days on google searching to find out how those callers from India KNOW he needs penis pills.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> No, you are trying to state that the ownership costs are the same as the operation cost. That is not the same. Operation costs is Part of Ownership and the calculations are not the same.


I never said that and agree with you: of course , operating costs are part of ownership costs.



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> I've picked up adults who don't own cars before.
> 
> However that mostly includes blind people and people who are too old to drive so...
> 
> ...


'parked' being the operative word! Lol


----------



## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Your insurance cost as stated is too high. Only the portion attributable to Rideshare specifically would be your business expense. If you owned of the car but did not drive Rideshare, you would still have to pay your regular insurance bill.
> 
> On the other side of your equation, you are not including depreciation. The fact that a car is paid off is irrelevant. How much you paid for it, how much you drove it, and its age and current value are what determine depreciation.
> 
> But overall, you're spot on. :smiles:


I was about to comment how low his insurance was. Lol. Vegas insurance is crazy.
It's not the norm, but I bought a used car strictly to drive Uber, so the full insurance cost counts as an expense.
As for depreciation, I recouped the money I paid for the car in the first 6 weeks of driving full time, so it's been depreciated to zero already.
Now in my 3rd year, I use .20/mile for operating costs. 
This includes, gas/maintenance/repairs/car registration/Insurance/State and county Business License (required in NV)
So using actual numbers from previous years, they were .17/mile, .19/mile, and so far this year .18/mile.
Barring any unexpected disasters, I could easily go another 2 years with this car.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Taxi2Uber said:


> I was about to comment how low his insurance was. Lol. Vegas insurance is crazy.
> It's not the norm, but I bought a used car strictly to drive Uber, so the full insurance cost counts as an expense.
> As for depreciation, I recouped the money I paid for the car in the first 6 weeks of driving full time, so it's been depreciated to zero already.
> Now in my 3rd year, I use .20/mile for operating costs.
> ...


Again - spot on... ( 'cept for depreciation. The real-world depreciation is the difference between what you paid for the vehicle and what you sell it for - that's your actual cost of acquisition. I'm not chiding you - honest) *I do exactly the same thing*: buy a cheap used car for business use/rideshare and drive it for that purpose till the wheels fall off. Typically the car 'pays for itself' in a matter of weeks or a few months at most. (but that's not depreciation - the car still loses value every day it get's older and every mile it's driven). I get 45 - 50 MPG in the 2012 Prius I pad $4,000 for a year and a half ago. My cost to drive the thing is maybe $0.10/mi. I drive about 1,000 mi/wk for rideshare with it - which provides a std mileage deduction of around $28,000/yr which offsets the tax liability of my rideshare revenue.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Again - spot on... ( 'cept for depreciation. The real-world depreciation is the difference between what you paid for the vehicle and what you sell it for - that's your actual cost of acquisition. I'm not chiding you - honest) *I do exactly the same thing*: buy a cheap used car for business use/rideshare and drive it for that purpose till the wheels fall off. Typically the car 'pays for itself' in a matter of weeks or a few months at most. (but that's not depreciation - the car still loses value every day it get's older and every mile it's driven). I get 45 - 50 MPG in the 2012 Prius I pad $4,000 for a year and a half ago. My cost to drive the thing is maybe $0.10/mi. I drive about 1,000 mi/wk for rideshare with it - which provides a std mileage deduction of around $28,000/yr which offsets the tax liability of my rideshare revenue.


Where'd you get a 4K 2012 Prius? I've been looking to buy a second Prius so I can tag them between here and Mexico every 6 months. Around here they're 8-9K or 5-6K for a salvage title.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

observer said:


> Where'd you get a 4K 2012 Prius? I've been looking to buy a second Prius so I can tag them between here and Mexico every 6 months. Around here they're 8-9K or 5-6K for a salvage title.


It was located at a Ford dealership in Pittsburgh. I waited for it to just sit on the lot for about a month and then drove out on a Sunday during a snowstorm on the last day of the month. I wanted them to know that I was a serious buyer not just looking, so I drove up with my Mercedes and parked it right in front of the entrance to the showroom. Because it was late on Sunday and snowing like crazy, I was the only customer there.

I had figured that a high mileage Prius was not going to be something that a Ford dealer would move easily. It was going to be a car they would have to send to auction. So with everybody from the sales manager to the financial guy wanting to get home I made a cash offer at what I knew the wholesale value to be and wrote a check. I asked them as a joke when they were going to deliver it. They surprised me by saying is tomorrow okay? And that is what they did.

My other Prius is a 2007 that I bought at auction for $550. But that one cost me another 1700 once I was done with auction fees, shipping from Utah and replacing the Hybrid battery. Both of these are still running strong.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> It was located at a Ford dealership in Pittsburgh. I waited for it to just sit on the lot for about a month and then drove out on a Sunday during a snowstorm on the last day of the month. I wanted them to know that I was a serious buyer not just looking, so I drove up with my Mercedes and parked it right in front of the entrance to the showroom. Because it was late on Sunday and snowing like crazy, I was the only customer there.
> 
> I had figured that a high mileage Prius was not going to be something that a Ford dealer would move easily. It was going to be a car they would have to send to auction. So with everybody from the sales manager to the financial guy wanting to get home I made a cash offer at what I knew the wholesale value to be and wrote a check. I asked them as a joke when they were going to deliver it. They surprised me by saying is tomorrow okay? And that is what they did.
> 
> My other Prius is a 2007 that I bought at auction for $550. But that one cost me another 1700 once I was done with auction fees, shipping from Utah and replacing the Hybrid battery. Both of these are still running strong.


Nice.

I've seen a few 2006 and below for a couple grand but they are usually pretty rough. I've also seen a few damaged ones at Copart but I figured by the time I fixed them I could buy one on the street for a few more bux and it would have a clean title.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

observer said:


> Nice.
> 
> I've seen a few 2006 and below for a couple grand but they are usually pretty rough. I've also seen a few damaged ones at Copart but I figured by the time I fixed them I could buy one on the street for a few more bux and it would have a clean title.


Auctions can be very iffy. When I bought the Priuses I also bought a 2008 Civic Hybrid so I could compare it. That one was $500 at auction with just some minor front end damage but it had 200,000 miles on it. cost 2000 to get the front end done. It served its purpose, I hated it. Sold it for 2500 so I didn't lose too much. For an auction purchase, I have to be willing and able to lose everything just like at a casino!


----------



## The Entomologist (Sep 23, 2018)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics


----------



## Stable Genius (Jul 28, 2019)

AngelAdams said:


> It's not just drivers that get raped. They (drivers) cost the nation over 20 billion a year in lost revenue and expenses. Drivers are leaches on society.
> 
> 
> 11 billion in lost revenue and over 9 billion in social welfare. Drivers don't pay tax and they use free services. The middle class is left to pickup the tab.


11 billion in lost revenue for who? Public transportation? Public trans is subsidised, so by your logic everyone taking the bus is a leach. If the city wants tax revenue then it's up to them to go after the rideshare companies.

And what free services am i using? Even if drivers are poor enough to be on welfare then that's not the drivers fault. This is like saying Wal-Mart workers are scumbuags because their bosses squeeze them to the point of needing public assistance. Dumb logic.


----------



## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Stable Genius said:


> 11 billion in lost revenue for who? Public transportation? Public trans is subsidised, so by your logic everyone taking the bus is a leach. If the city wants tax revenue then it's up to them to go after the rideshare companies.
> 
> And what free services am i using? Even if drivers are poor enough to be on welfare then that's not the drivers fault. This is like saying Wal-Mart workers are scumbuags because their bosses squeeze them to the point of needing public assistance. Dumb logic.


You're an accessory. Sorry but you are. If everyone behaved and thought as you did, humanity, well humanity would be where it's at now.


----------



## Stable Genius (Jul 28, 2019)

AngelAdams said:


> You're an accessory. Sorry but you are. If everyone behaved and thought as you did, humanity, well humanity would be where it's at now.


Is that really all you could come up with?


----------



## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Stable Genius said:


> Is that really all you could come up with?


I could spend a lifetime debating you on capitalism and democracy. But, based on our previous interaction it's would be fruitless. You like being a victim, gives you something to ***** about.
I have zero empathy for a masochist.


----------



## Stable Genius (Jul 28, 2019)

AngelAdams said:


> I could spend a lifetime debating you on capitalism and democracy. But, based on our previous interaction it's would be fruitless. You like being a victim, gives you something to @@@@@ about.
> I have zero empathy for a masochist.


Yeah, because one paragraph gave you my life story and every detail of my political/economic leanings. Despite me saying absolutely nothing about it. I could've thrown insults too, but my critical mistake seems to be trying to engage you in a rational discussion. Kicks rocks.


----------



## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Stable Genius said:


> Yeah, because one paragraph gave you my life story and every detail of my political/economic leanings. Despite me saying absolutely nothing about it. I could've thrown insults too, but my critical mistake seems to be trying to engage you in a rational discussion. Kicks rocks.


The points you brought up said to me all I needed to know. You're one of those my house is shitty, but yours is shittier. 
I'm the all y'all homes are shitty, lets stop attacking each other and focus at the problem at hand.

Problem is Uber and Lyfts business model benefits only a handful and costs everyone else. It's unregulated unethical business model. It removes the human aspect of employment. Without the human aspect we're all running pointlessly in a hamster wheel.

The only way for Uber and Lyft to operate unchecked is by drivers DRIVING. 
So you can't do good, when you're contributing to the bad. 
Fair pay -Good
U/L pay -Bad

So, when you're ready to tackle the problem, start with thy self.

"A person who extorts profit from or sponges on others."


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> I could spend a lifetime debating you on capitalism and democracy. But, based on our previous interaction it's would be fruitless. You like being a victim, gives you something to @@@@@ about.
> I have zero empathy for a masochist.


When you tell other people what they think or what they believe you are being confrontational. Please avoid that.


----------



## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> When you tell other people what they think or what they believe you are being confrontational. Please avoid that.


I know, ugh but it's so hard when I'm trying to compose opera while Britney Spears is practicing her vocals next to me.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> The only way for Uber and Lyft to operate unchecked is by drivers DRIVING.


It seems to me that your complaint about the system it's misplaced. You are blaming labor for the injustices created by unregulated industry. The only way for Uber and Lyft to operate unchecked is by Congress failing to do its job.

News Flash: 
It is not the fault of the person struggling to put food on their table and a roof over their familiy's head that is the cause of the problems we have in a free market capitalist society.



AngelAdams said:


> I know, ugh but it's so hard when I'm trying to compose opera while Britney Spears is practicing her vocals next to me.


And whose fault is that, yours or Britney's?


----------



## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> It seems to me that your complaint about the system it's misplaced. You are blaming labor for the injustices created by unregulated industry. The only way for Uber and Lyft to operate unchecked is by Congress failing to do its job.
> 
> News Flash:
> It is not the fault of the person struggling to put food on their table and a roof over their familiy's head that is the cause of the problems we have in a free market capitalist society.
> ...


ANY minimum wage job pays more and comes with real social benefits and safety nets a person of dire needs, needs. 
There is no instance, other than special events where one can turn a profit driving with U/L.

There are maybe 10 days a year where you can make enough to justify the damage you're doing to your wallet, mind, body, and soul.

And, any one knowing this and basic math should be helping drivers deprogram and see the light.

As I've aaid before, there's only so much water you can squeeze out of a tied until you realize, now it's just shit.


----------



## Stable Genius (Jul 28, 2019)

AngelAdams said:


> The points you brought up said to me all I needed to know. You're one of those my house is shitty, but yours is shittier.
> I'm the all y'all homes are shitty, lets stop attacking each other and focus at the problem at hand.
> 
> Problem is Uber and Lyfts business model benefits only a handful and costs everyone else. It's unregulated unethical business model. It removes the human aspect of employment. Without the human aspect we're all running pointlessly in a hamster wheel.
> ...


It looks like we're on the same page after all. I agree. Although I'd add that many of these drivers are desperate and the others are too ignorant to understand just how little money thier making until taxes and a major repair bill. It's the same old same of exploiting the poor.


----------



## Wolfgang Faust (Aug 2, 2018)

wearenotthesame said:


> only excuse for not owning a car over 18 is if you own a house/condo, are blind, disabled, and so old you cant drive
> 
> or of course lazy, junkie, alcoholic, generally losers
> 
> ...


I sold my 2008 Lincoln Town car for $1900...it had 520,000 miles on it, looked pretty good and ran smooth.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> ANY minimum wage job pays more and comes with real social benefits and safety nets a person of dire needs, needs.
> There is no instance, other than special events where one can turn a profit driving with U/L.


As much as you would like to believe that everyone has the ability to get a minimum wage job that they can work on a regular schedule, that's just not the case. MANY people have to be available on-call in order to care for dependents. Others have health issues that require they miss work, unpredictably for periods of time.

I would love to be able to say 'here, here!' and cheer you on - but you're speaking in generalizations, telling other people what they can and can't do, and you're wrong. It may be true for you - and many others - but it's not true for everyone - and it seems you just won't hear of it when someone says that what you say about them is wrong. Not everyone is you. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean everyone can - and to judge people on that basis is always going to lead you to conclusions that just don't jive with reality.



> There are maybe 10 days a year where you can make enough to justify the damage you're doing to your wallet, mind, body, and soul.


 ZZZZZzzzz - there you go again. I know I can manage driving any day of the year without damaging (by much, anyway) my wallet, mind, body, and soul. But thank sfor your concern over my well being. ZZZZzzzz.



> And, any one knowing this and basic math should be helping drivers deprogram and see the light.


Sorry, but it's not a cult. It's not a religion. It does not require your intervention to save souls, regardless of how holier than thou you present yourself.

Most people drive because among the choices available to them (including standing at a freeway off-ramp with a cardboard sign begging for dollars), driving is the least objectionable to them. You don't have to like it. Nobody - and I do mean nobody - cares what you think about their choice to drive or not drive. The attrition rates bear out that the majority of drivers last for less than a year. We know that that's partly because it takes about 6 months for most people to see what the real long-term costs are both in cash and in car value/condition... but also because people's circumstances do change, hopefully for the better: they get a job, they pay off some debt, they win the lottery. And yes, there are those who stop driving because their circumstance changed for the worse: you can't drive if you don't have a running, qualified vehicle and paid insurance.


----------



## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> As much as you would like to believe that everyone has the ability to get a minimum wage job that they can work on a regular schedule, that's just not the case. MANY people have to be available on-call in order to care for dependents. Others have health issues that require they miss work, unpredictably for periods of time.
> 
> I would love to be able to say 'here, here!' and cheer you on - but you're speaking in generalizations, telling other people what they can and can't do, and you're wrong. It may be true for you - and many others - but it's not true for everyone - and it seems you just won't hear of it when someone says that what you say about them is wrong. Not everyone is you. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean everyone can - and to judge people on that basis is always going to lead you to conclusions that just don't jive with reality.
> 
> ...


It goes much deeper. People who are going through something mentally, NEED to stay away from U/L. They use psyops to manipulate everything. 
Unless one is driving a Tesla, it costs Atleast $.30 a mile to operate a vehicle. 
Having the ability to have an open schedule is enticing, but to make above minimum there are only a few hours in a day one can work.

Here in the LA market lyft pays the highest at around a dollar a driven mile, which is still below the minimum wage threshold.

Not to mention just because you can drive doesn't mean you should. 
As a pedestrian I see the talent of drivers out there and it's truly the wild Wild West.

Trust me, I've looked at every possible angle, it's impossible to justify.

Anyways, do you.


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

AngelAdams said:


> It goes much deeper. People who are going through something mentally, NEED to stay away from U/L. They use psyops to manipulate everything.
> Unless one is driving a Tesla, it costs Atleast $.30 a mile to operate a vehicle.
> Having the ability to have an open schedule is enticing, but to make above minimum there are only a few hours in a day one can work.
> 
> ...


I don't understand the focus on minimum wage. Minimum wage just dosent make it for me.

$8.46 x 40hr = $350 less taxes

I've been averaging $1000 a week gross income over 18 months.Expenses $200/week gas , $75/week maintenance budget and $125/week repair and replacement fund (depreciation)

So net $600/week actually I don't worry about depreciation or saving for another car. If the one I have lasts another couple of years I'll just junk it and quit

And , no, it dosent take 30 cents a mile to operate most cars


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

oldfart said:


> I don't understand the focus on minimum wage. Minimum wage just dosent make it for me.
> 
> $8.46 x 40hr = $350 less taxes
> 
> ...


Minimum wage is $7.25 an hour here.
I made 4 times that when working Real jobs.

Our cars must be paid to work also !


----------



## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

oldfart said:


> I don't understand the focus on minimum wage. Minimum wage just dosent make it for me.
> 
> $8.46 x 40hr = $350 less taxes
> 
> ...


Oh, don't get me wrong. This is a minimum $35 an hr job (clean)
In order for this job to be viable one needs to make minimum $50 in fares an hr equivalent.

When I say minimum wage I don't mean just the hourly rate. Here in Ca I think minimum is 12 soon to be 15. 
Employment also comes with roughly $5-7 an hr worth of benefits.

So ideally U/L pay $20-30 an hr (clean) 
Drivers don't drive over 6 hr a day (carcinogen limit)
That combined with independent status I would be rideshare number one cheerleader.

But as it stands it's exploitation and pure corporate slave labor.

I don't know about your market, but that's how it is in LA.



tohunt4me said:


> Minimum wage is $7.25 an hour here.
> I made 4 times that when working Real jobs.
> 
> Our cars must be paid to work also !


$7.25? Jesus. Thats not even a 7-11 pizza. **** labor is ****ed.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong. This is a minimum $35 an hr job (clean)
> In order for this job to be viable one needs to make minimum $50 in fares an hr equivalent.
> 
> When I say minimum wage I don't mean just the hourly rate. Here in Ca I think minimum is 12 soon to be 15.
> ...


$7.25 an hour.
When i deliver pizza
I get $4.25 an hour and 37 cents a mile.
EVERY MILE. Even coming back empty.

Its all abour the TIPS !

" NO NEED TO TIP "! - UBER

( NOW to be fair, they offered me Raises. Told them to give it to the in store support personel. My Team. I can get my own " Raises"( tips). My pay is good for health insurance and paying car note on 2 week check)


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> It goes much deeper. People who are going through something mentally, NEED to stay away from U/L.They use psyops to manipulate everything.


Now you're just grasping at straws to justify your comments. Where did that come from - thin air? Oh, puhlease... so do parents, marketers, the government. You can take off your tin-foil hat - most adults (and teens for that matter) are aware of the manipulation in our society.


> Unless one is driving a Tesla, it costs At least $.30 a mile to operate a vehicle.


That's absurd. The cost of acquiring a used Telsa is 3 times higher than acquiring a used Prius (at 50MPG) or a Nissan Sentra or Honda Civic (30/40 MPG). Are suggesting that the cost of acquiring a vehicle doesn't count? (like a lot of drivers do, hehe).
A $35,000 used Tesla 3 costs about $6.75 to fully charge for 220 miles range (0.30/mi).
My 2012 Prius, acquired for <$5,000 costs about $18.50 to fill-up for a 450 mile range 0.41/mi).
The Tesla beats my Prius by $0.01/mi. Do the math: The Tesla would have to be driven 3,000,0000 miles to make up the difference in cost from my Prius. (and good luck find a Tesla 3 in good condition for $35,000 - so those numbers are conservative.



> Having the ability to have an open schedule is enticing,


It's not enticing - it's necessary for some people. But you can't imagine that because, why? Because you can work any hours you choose?


> but to make above minimum there are only a few hours in a day one can work.


 That's utter nonsense. Seriously - no sense, as in , it doesn't even make sense.



> Here in the LA market lyft pays the highest at around a dollar a driven mile, which is still below the minimum wage threshold.


Now you're going to mix metaphors - well, in this case, site apples to describe oranges. Earnings per mile is unrelated to minimum wage which is based on hourly wages. Driving rideshare is not a job - it is self-employment work (and we can probably agree THAT is a joke). The self employed, business operators, entrepreneurs don't get paid by the hour - they make a profit or loss based on their success or failure in running their business.



> Not to mention just because you can drive doesn't mean you should.


I agree - but who's to make that judgement? The TNCs have decided (probably rightfully so) that if you have a clean driving record, a relatively clean past, a qualifying insured and registered vehicle that you deserve the opportunity to make it or lose it based on how riders perceive your performance.



> As a pedestrian I see the talent of drivers out there and it's truly the wild Wild West.


As a pedestrian? hehe... well, as a RIDER ny personal anecdotal observation is that 8/10 drivers I've had have been just fine - and far above the cab drivers I used to get. The other 20% - hopefully, the rating system will take care of them.



> Trust me,


No. No more than I expect you to 'trust me'. I'm not from the show-me state, but I still require evidence of something, not just hyperbolic agenda driven opinion.

Thanks though - I appreciate the conversation.


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Now you're just grasping at straws to justify your comments. Where did that come from - thin air? Oh, puhlease... so do parents, marketers, the government. You can take off your tin-foil hat - most adults (and teens for that matter) are aware of the manipulation in our society.
> That's absurd. The cost of acquiring a used Telsa is 3 times higher than acquiring a used Prius (at 50MPG) or a Nissan Sentra or Honda Civic (30/40 MPG). Are suggesting that the cost of acquiring a vehicle doesn't count? (like a lot of drivers do, hehe).
> A $35,000 used Tesla 3 costs about $6.75 to fully charge for 220 miles range (0.30/mi).
> My 2012 Prius, acquired for <$5,000 costs about $18.50 to fill-up for a 450 mile range 0.41/mi).
> ...


?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong. This is a minimum $35 an hr job (clean)
> In order for this job to be viable one needs to make minimum $50 in fares an hr equivalent.
> 
> When I say minimum wage I don't mean just the hourly rate. Here in Ca I think minimum is 12 soon to be 15.
> ...


7-11 pizza here is still $5 (but I'd rather eat the box it comes in)
We get that you don't like ridheshare. But don't pretend that the $7-10/min wage job that has benefits, doesn't also have tax withholding and tax liability, where-as drivers get gross earnings and have very little, if any, tax liability due to their expenses. For the sake of argument, it's a wash. And for some of us, those huge std mileage deductions we're allowed to take significantly reduce the tax liability we have from other income. Not everyone who drives is financially desperate! Grandmas drive... retirees drive... husbands/wives drive to put enough cash together for a special anniversary gift. There are as many reasons people drive as there are people to tell the stories.


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

A used 2016 Prius is around 15k. You can get 150 k miles out of it. Realistically two miles per dollar earned. 
So over the life of the car you can get $75,000 max. 
A new model 3 will eventually be $35,000
Minimum 1,000,000 miles. So you can make $500,000 possible over lifetime of car.

Toyota's will yield $5 return on every dollar invested. Tesla will yield $28 per dollar invested. 
That's just the car. 
You also have to take into account maintenance, insurance, etc. 
You're also driving a machine of luxury, power, and comfort. Easier to operate and is far more adaptive and expandable. It's a car that will give you good 10 years of heavy heavy driving at the minimum. 
Anyways. I don't care. You've worn me down. 
Good luck.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> 7-11 pizza here is still $5 (but I'd rather eat the box it comes in)
> We get that you don't like ridheshare. But don't pretend that the $7-10/min wage job that has benefits, doesn't also have tax withholding and tax liability, where-as drivers get gross earnings and have very little, if any, tax liability due to their expenses. For the sake of argument, it's a wash. And for some of us, those huge std mileage deductions we're allowed to take significantly reduce the tax liability we have from other income. Not everyone who drives is financially desperate! Grandmas drive... retirees drive... husbands/wives drive to put enough cash together for a special anniversary gift. There are as many reasons people drive as there are people to tell the stories.


There are many reasons why people are desperate. I get that. My point is, if you're desperate this isn't the job for you. This job as it stands benefits no one over the long term. 
It's a short term equity loan on your mind, boy, soul, and assets. 
Real problem is the system. And you can't change the system when you're breaking the good it has done. 
You build and renovate. You don't demo the house with the plans inside.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> A used 2016 Prius is around 15k.


How many do you own?
I own two (2007 & 2012) and I bought a 2008 Honda Civic Hybrid at the same time.
ALL THREE hybrids combined did not cost me $8,000 (and nowhere anywhere near your $15,000 pull-it-out-of-thin-air number). And there is absolutely no relationship between what you say the Prius will earn versus what you can earn with a Tesla. So let me say it again, Uber and Lyft will pay you the exact same amount for driving a mile in your Tesla as they pay me for driving a mile in my Prius. The difference is you will have spent ten times more to drive that mile.

That ends that part of the conversation.


> Toyota's will yield $5 return on every dollar invested. Tesla will yield $28 per dollar invested.


Cars do not yield dividends (or, in general, increase in value). They are not that kind of 'investment'.
Cars are a _depreciating_ asset.


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> How many do you won? I own two and I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid at the same time. ALL THREE hybrids did not cost me $8,000.
> 
> That ends that part of the conversation.


Ya, but bro, you're riding in a Honda Civic and comparing it to a Tesla. There is also a quality you should strive for. 
Ps, I agree with the 7-11 pizza thing. It's nasty. While I'm at it, jack in the box tacos are not "bomb" they are not fit for human consumption.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> How many do you own?
> I own two (2007 & 2012) and I bought a 2008 Honda Civic Hybrid at the same time.
> ALL THREE hybrids combined did not cost me $8,000 (and nowhere anywhere near your $15,000 pull-it-out-of-thin-air number).
> 
> That ends that part of the conversation.


The $15,000 Prius I accounted 150,000 miles use out of it. Combined that is extremely generous.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> There are many reasons why people are desperate. I get that. My point is, if you're desperate this isn't the job for you. This job as it stands benefits no one over the long term.


 I think we agree that it's not a job - and that many enter into it with a job/empolyee mentality - that's common ground. Where I take issue with you is when you determine what is best for someone else.


> t's a short term equity loan on your mind, boy, soul, and assets.


Pretty prose but nonsense. What rideshare is, in my opinion, is drivers donating their time, effort, driving expenses and ultimately their vehicle to the rideshare companies. And they thank you very much for building their brands for them to the tune of $100 bil in valuation - all while you go broke and/or destroy your car.



> You don't demo the house with the plans inside.


 If the house sucks to begin with, I hope the plans burn with the rest of it.


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> If the house sucks to begin with, I hope the plans burn with the rest of it.


The plan is to be protected with our lives. We just need to amend it a few more times.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm not 'riding' in anything... those are my work vehicles - I work in them - (sold the civic - hated it) just as the Tesla would be if I thought it made sense to drive a Tesla for this kind of work. It doesn't. I drove my personal car for one week (5+ years ago) - that's all it took for me to know I was not going to put 1,200+ miles/wk on my Mercedes for this stuff. I've been buying separate cars work driving ever since.


AngelAdams said:


> The $15,000 Prius I accounted 150,000 miles use out of it. Combined that is extremely generous.


It's not generous - it's wrong. As long as you change the oil in these things, they just keep going: the 2007 has at least 170,000 mi on it - and the 2012 has just under 225,000 mi on it, and they are both running strong. (clearly you're not a 'car guy'). Now, to be fair - most people aren't 'car guys' - and I suspect most people also may not have quite as much choice in what to drive for rideshare as maybe you or I do. But you know, the mom who drops her kids at school, spends an hour at the gym or yoga and then drives rideshare for 3-4 hours before having to collect the kids and making $30-$100/day... that cash flow from driving is making a huge difference in her life and her kids lives.

AND ANOTHER THING . . .
anyone who will wait in line for 45 minutes at 2:30AM in a drive-thru just to get Taco Bell, deserves the same quality of driver they're getting in the quality of their 'food' (and I use the term loosely)


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I'm not 'riding in anything... those are my work vehicles (sold the civic - hated it) just as the Tesla would be if I thought it made sense to drive a Tesla for this kind of work. It doesn't. I drove my personal car for one week (5+ years ago) - that's all it took for me to know I was not going to put 1,200+ miles/wk on my Mercedes for this stuff. I've been buying separate cars work driving ever since.
> It's not generous - it's wrong. As long as you change the oil in these things, they just keep going: the 2007 has at least 170,000 mi on it - and the 2012 has just under 225,000 mi on it, and they are both running strong. (clearly you're not a 'car guy'). Now, to be fair - most people aren't 'car guys' - and I suspect most people also may not have quite as much choice in what to drive for rideshare as maybe you or I do. But you know, the mom who drops her kids at school, spends an hour at the gym or yoga and then drives rideshare for 3-4 hours before having to collect the kids and making $30-$100/day... that cash flow from driving is making a huge difference in her life and her kids lives.
> 
> AND ANOTHER THING . . .
> ...


A used Tesla that costs $15,000 also has 40,000 already. So like I said 150,000 is more than generous. Sure you can replace this replace that, but I'm talking about value per mile. Even if you push it, no combustion engine car can return anything over $7 per $1 invested. A Tesla at the very minimum is at $25. This does not account for maintenance (3k Yr) or fuel. 
It's cheaper to operate in all aspects. Not to mention safer and more comfortable.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> A used Tesla that costs $15,000 also has 40,000 already. So like I said 150,000 is more than generous. Sure you can replace this replace that, but I'm talking about value per mile. Even if you push it, no combustion engine car can return anything over $7 per $1 invested. A Tesla at the very minimum is at $25. This does not account for maintenance (3k Yr) or fuel.
> It's cheaper to operate in all aspects. Not to mention safer and more comfortable.


sorry - you don't know what cars sell for.
I've been trying to buy a decent Tesla for a year and I can't touch one under $35,000 - most are more - and anywhere from 50,000 - 100,000 mi on them.
I've bought 2 Prius for under $7,000. TWO! An auction I've been watching just eneded a few minutes on a high mileage 2013 Prius at $3,600. It's good for another 100,000 miles. No one is driving Teslas that long, yet - they're not reliable enough. And the range is just now creeping up into the usable area for rideshare - even if the value isn't. How did the Tesla become part of this conversation? It's dumb. <smh> I'll by a Tesla for personal use, maybe to replace one of my other personal vehicles - but not for doing rideshare (unless I buy one with 100k miles on it for under $10,000 - then I might consider it - but I doubt it.

What you don't understand is that Uber & Lyft pay exactly the same in earnings to me in my $4,000 Prius doing X/Lyft rides as they pay you doing the same rides in your $35,000 Tesla.

ALWAYS drive the least expensive, most fuel efficient car you can for rideshare if you want any chance of making a profit.


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> sorry - you don't know what cars sell for.
> I've been trying to buy a decent Tesla for a year and I can't touch one under $35,000 - most are more - and anywhere from 50,000 - 100,000 mi on them.
> I've bought 2 Prius for under $7,000. TWO! An auction I've been watching just eneded a few minutes on a high mileage 2013 Prius at $3,600. It's good for another 100,000 miles. No one is driving Teslas that long, yet - they're not reliable enough. And the range is just now creeping up into the usable area for rideshare - even if the value isn't. How did the Tesla become part of this conversation? It's dumb. <smh> I'll by a Tesla for personal use, maybe to replace one of my other personal vehicles - but not for doing rideshare (unless I buy one with 100k miles on it for under $10,000 - then I might consider it - but I doubt it.
> 
> ...


I meant Prius. It was a typo. Tesla would be new.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> sorry - you don't know what cars sell for.
> I've been trying to buy a decent Tesla for a year and I can't touch one under $35,000 - most are more - and anywhere from 50,000 - 100,000 mi on them.
> I've bought 2 Prius for under $7,000. TWO! An auction I've been watching just eneded a few minutes on a high mileage 2013 Prius at $3,600. It's good for another 100,000 miles. No one is driving Teslas that long, yet - they're not reliable enough. And the range is just now creeping up into the usable area for rideshare - even if the value isn't. How did the Tesla become part of this conversation? It's dumb. <smh> I'll by a Tesla for personal use, maybe to replace one of my other personal vehicles - but not for doing rideshare (unless I buy one with 100k miles on it for under $10,000 - then I might consider it - but I doubt it.
> 
> ...


When it comes to rideshare the only car that can turn a profit over the life of the car is currently the Tesla model 3. 
You get a 50k business loan. Buy a Tesla and have solar panels and battery installed. You get the 200+ mile range version. If you need to charge using super chargers or do 6 hrs a day. 
That way the car has over a million miles. 
Currently driver expenses range from 20-40%. The car would bring that down to 10%. You can even find a sponsor (easy with a Tesla) and make 3-400 extra a mo on the side. Only way to make around 17-19$ an hr. Still shitty but doable. 
Most important is the filtration system. Get the hazmat version. It will increase the amount of time you can (medically) spend on the road.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> I meant Prius. It was a typo. Tesla would be new.
> 
> 
> When it comes to rideshare the only car that can turn a profit over the life of the car is currently the Tesla model 3.
> ...


sounds great - let us know when you do it and what your results are.
I can't wait to hear what the interest rate you get on a $50,000 "business" loan is. SBA is 7.5%-10%. Banks are 10%-30%.
Of course, if an Uber or Lyft driver could qualify for a $50,000 business loan the chances are good they don't need to be driving Uber/Lyft. Ah... maybe they should just use $50,000 of home equity they don't have in the 2 bedroom apartment they are already at risk of losing because they are 2 months behind in rent. (There's a real world out here - come take a look some time)


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> sounds great - let us know when you do it and what your results are.
> I can't wait to hear what the interest rate you get on a $50,000 "business" loan is. SBA is 7.5%-10%. Banks are 10%-30%.
> Of course, if an Uber or Lyft driver could qualify for a $50,000 business loan the chances are good they don't need to be driving Uber/Lyft. Ah... maybe they should just use $50,000 of home equity they don't have in the 2 bedroom apartment they are already at risk of losing because they are 2 months behind in rent. (There's a real world out here - come take a look some time)


I was giving you an example of the only way this job could be profitable. You're being cynical. 
You're two months behind on rent? Damn that sucks bro. I'm so sorry, I hope you make your way out.


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## nouberipo (Jul 24, 2018)

Ignatz said:


> If u ran a company where disposable unlimited supply of nonemployees
> would Allowed themselves Daily to be fiscally
> abused
> exploited
> ...


Um......sorry man, I have principles, ethics, and a moral compass which in the end will mean more than lying, manipulation, unethical practices, and exploitation of people. Squeezing more out of disposable drivers? That is exactly why employment laws and regulations have been passed since companies cannot regulate themselves. Problem IS Uber and people like you who have a very warped worldview when it comes to humanity and the way people are supposed to treat each other.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

nouberipo said:


> Um......sorry man, I have principles, ethics, and a moral compass which in the end will mean more than lying, manipulation, unethical practices, and exploitation of people. Squeezing more out of disposable drivers? That is exactly why employment laws and regulations have been passed since companies cannot regulate themselves. Problem IS Uber and people like you who have a very warped worldview when it comes to humanity and the way people are supposed to treat each other.


People like me? This is why your posts are meaningless: 
You presume to know other people's motives, morals and principles. That makes you the unethical one.


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

nouberipo said:


> Um......sorry man, I have principles, ethics, and a moral compass which in the end will mean more than lying, manipulation, unethical practices, and exploitation of people. Squeezing more out of disposable drivers? That is exactly why employment laws and regulations have been passed since companies cannot regulate themselves. Problem IS Uber and people like you who have a very warped worldview when it comes to humanity and the way people are supposed to treat each other.


You're both right. But you're assuming that he/she feels that way. All I read was him/her being blunt and very mechanical. But that's how a corporation function. So if you guys unite and realize you're both preaching the same thing, you will unite and take anything down. Corporations use psyops to separate people with common causes. While you're arguing about the same thing they're laughing all the way to the bank.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> You're both right. But you're assuming that he/she feels that way. All I read was him/her being blunt and very mechanical. But that's how a corporation function. So if you guys unite and realize you're both preaching the same thing, you will unite and take anything down. Corporations use psyops to separate people with common causes. While you're arguing about the same thing they're laughing all the way to the bank.


do you ever get outside to see sunlight and breathe fresh-air?


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

tmart said:


> Its all good until you trade in your 200-250K miles + car. Good luck with that.
> 
> Btw... Didnt Harvard or MIT do a study also?


You are forgetting one important thing. - The revenue generated by the car as for hire. 100-150k should of been generated from that car over the 200-250k lifespan, and that is if your city is netting you 50 cents a mile. Most newbies like yourself who freak out about deprecation miss this. This is why you also try to find a used car for rideshare and do not use a 30k car for UberX.


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> do you ever get outside to see sunlight and breathe fresh-air?


Not right now, it's too hot. I do need to go to the valley today for an appointment. Maybe I'll stop by my moms and make it a pool day. 
But I'm also craving KBBQ. 
But at night, for sure. I practically live in my gazebo.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> do you ever get outside to see sunlight and breathe fresh-air?


Why are you stalking me?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

AngelAdams said:


> Why are you stalking me?


you might want to look up the definition of the word stalking. Also, a few messages back you posted that you were done, however, you keep posting questions or things that demand a response from a rational person. Happy to oblige.


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## AngelAdams (Jan 21, 2019)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> you might want to look up the definition of the word stalking. Also, a few messages back you posted that you were done, however, you keep posting questions or things that demand a response from a rational person. Happy to oblige.


Done talking with you. You're unstable


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