# Change my mind: Tunnel vision-itis



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

I've learned something here:

Paid shills notwithstanding, the commenters here who are highly critical of the compensation structure typically have something in common: tunnel vision.

That's shorthand for saying that they're exceedingly concerned with only this particular offer/request alone or that other offer/request in isolation. They seem unable or unwilling (or maybe even both) to see the bigger picture of what an entire week (like 50+ trips) or even a whole month's worth of work (like 200+ trips) looks like. They seem to evaluate each and every incoming offer/request just as if it's the only thing they'll earn that day, week, and month. They seem to be ignorant of the longer view of things and evaluating individual offers relative to even the previous and next offers.

They seem ignorant of the fact that many businesses experience profit margin variations from one transaction to the next across different customers. For example, the convenience store owner doesn't receive the same profit when Joey buys a pack of chewing gum as when Thomas buys a 24 pack of Heineken. The profit margin is different despite each transaction being a single item and taking the same amount of time and effort for the clerk to complete the sale (unless Joey is paying with pocket coins and forgot about tax and has to dig for more coins and Thomas is paying with a card at the terminal).

_Have you ever seen a corner store owner get as irate as an Uber driver romanticizing the olden days just because he received less profit from Joey than from Thomas?_

Me neither. Peace!


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

I heard that if you include a photo or gif. You could get this thread featured.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

I see your point but we like to complain on this forum. 😉


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> I heard that if you include a photo or gif. You could get this thread featured.


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## woggy9 (6 mo ago)

are you a corporate plant?










I'm kidding. I know you're probably not. but.

I get where you're coming from about tunnel vision, but it's actually a good thing for drivers to express dissatisfaction with pay schemes that directly reduce their take-home wage.

It actually benefits you, for others to gather and criticize the corporate overlords that we operate as independent contractors for. There needs to be some pressure that pushes them in the direction of not cutting earnings for the drivers who if we all get pissed and decide to move on to other sources of income Uber will cease to exist. It is a husk, an empty shell of a silicon valley dream that we all know will starve out and die soon. 

The shareholders and executives will always be a constant pressure to cut driver pay so that they can attempt to move towards some day making a dollar of profit and the natural balance to that is the people who decide to drive or not to drive for Uber must voice their anger when the screws get tightened. When our trip rates are made less transparent and less of the rider fare is allocated to us through deceptive and convoluted malicious fee structures that they think they can sneak by and people won't notice or won't be bothered enough to stop it because they're maybe not as good as math They will try to pay the absolute lowest possible rate and keep as much of the fares as possible at all times, they have a duty to their shareholders to do what will bring profit. they will go as far as they are allowed to by the drivers.

I agree with your sentiment about looking at the bigger scheme of earning week to week day to day and I have a similar mentality for just putting in the trips since it's better to be getting paid than to just be waiting around not getting paid. I also understand why you would be frustrated when you are swimming neck deep in drivers complaining every day about everything. Arguably, tunnel vision is something that you and I also exhibit in the being less crazy about what rides to accept but the people that reject low fare rides benefits us by teaching the algorithm that is our modern digital deity that fares can only be cut so far before there just aren't going to be any drivers willing to take the hit just to get a few bucks in for all the trouble it can be.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> I've learned something here:
> 
> Paid shills notwithstanding, the commenters here who are highly critical of the compensation structure typically have something in common: tunnel vision.
> 
> ...


We're not Walmart, we're not even the small mom and pop grocery store. We're one person in one vehicle with an approximate maximum of 12 hours per day to make money. Unlike the grocer and Walmart, we don't call the shots for our "business", another entity does.

Our volume is miniscule even for the busiest drivers. We can't afford "loss leader" rides. Our overhead per unit is exponentially higher than Uber's. We need an exponentially higher markup than Uber just to break even.

One bum ride out to the boonies or into a traffic-clogged area for 10 cents per minute could ruin an entire day's worth of earnings. Multiple trips of that type could ruin an entire week and so forth.

As far as the "good ole days" is concerned it's a bad feeling to know that drivers 8 and 9 years ago were paid triple or quadruple what we're being paid now for doing the same work at a lower cost of living than today.

People don't like being exploited, it's as simple as that.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Heisenburger said:


> I've learned something here:
> 
> Paid shills notwithstanding, the commenters here who are highly critical of the compensation structure typically have something in common: tunnel vision.
> 
> ...


The corner store owner would be livid about the low cost purchases if the line got so long that the heineken customer got frustrated and then left. He'd stop selling the chewing gum if this always happened.

OR if he wants the profit from both, he'd hire a helper to handle the lines if the benefit of the helper is greater than the loss from folks not checking out due to too long lines.

The true reason a single clerk will be there to handle both sales most of the time is that he can handle them both and he will probably have an empty queue most of the day. He sells both, regardless of the order. Each one benefits him and has no real opportunity cost.

The reality is that store owners don't just eat a loss. They are businessmen.

You as an Uber driver can only handle 1 passenger at a time. If you have a constant stream of requests, it would be idiotic to accept a low paying request when you could do the high paying request and it consumes the same amount of your time. You can maybe queue on a second request and do both but there is a great risk that it won't be timely and the passenger will cancel. Most likely, if you are queuing on a second request, it is so busy that you could have queued 2 good requests instead of 1 good and 1 bad request. Only on a rare circumstance would it be so slow that you are say, the only driver in the area, and you can queue up customers and basically satisfy all the ride volume. The reality is you take the bad request and another driver takes the good request or the good request guy gets impatient and orders a taxi because he doesn't want to miss his flight.

Taking the bad request doesn't really ever make sense unless your alternative is most likely no requests. Like if you've gone hours without a request, the chances of missing out on the good request by taking the bad one are very low. And in many cases, it NEVER makes sense to take the bad request no matter what because your vehicle has costs to operate.

DoorDash sends me offers that will literally cost me more in gas to complete. The store clerk pays the same amount for the store to be open regardless of serving customers or not. The clerks are paid, busy or not, and the light and air conditioning bill is the same, busy or not. Any sale he makes increases his profits compared to turning customers away during a slow time. 

As the driver, you can literally be better off by sitting idly in your car than taking a request that will cost you more money in gas than the payout.


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> I've learned something here:
> 
> Paid shills notwithstanding, the commenters here who are highly critical of the compensation structure typically have something in common: tunnel vision.
> 
> ...


Faulty premises to an extent, as have been pointed out above. 

For me, I'd rather have done fewer longer trips that paid more rather than do a ton of shorties. Few reasons: 

1. My sanity. I hated, especially in rush hour, trying to get multiple trips done. Would rather have 3 high paying trips than 10 shorties. Also seeing a string of $3.75 fares would make me mental.

2. I'm lazy. Primarily same reasons as 1.

3. Longer trips equated to better tips. I could engage in conversation with them and build rapport. Rapport = tips. Tips = $$$$.

4. Longer trips at highway speeds means less wear and tear on the car. My old market I'd easily take 400 miles on suburban Virginia roads over 100 downtown DC roads.

5. Opportunity cost. The time it takes you to do the $5 shortie, especially in rush hour, means you're missing the $50-$70 airport run.

Finally: You expect people to NOT piss and moan about getting paid less?


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## Mad_Jack_Flint (Nov 19, 2020)

Rampage said:


> I see your point but we like to complain on this forum. 😉


After seven hours and making $210 I like to say Houston still is horrible and my tunnel vision is 12 to 15 rides a day in a seven to eight hour period 6 days a week, so I am unsure if I am just one of those crybabies or just someone trying to make our glorious Dara rich…


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

yalik_moba said:


> Last stats I checked from 2021 *33% of drivers do 60+% of rides*


There's a lot more full-time gig workers than we've been told.

I'm pretty sure that the majority of rideshare drivers work for both Uber and Lyft. In addition many do food delivery and some do Instacart as well.

So what you've got is multiple companies having the same drivers on their books as part-timers while in fact those so-called part-time drivers are putting in full time hours when you combine the total hours they're working for all the gig companies.

So some guy could be putting in 20 hours for Uber, 15 for Lyft, 10 for Doordash, and maybe another 5 for Instacart. That's 50 hours of gig-work right there even though each company lists him as being a part-timer.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

NauticalWheeler said:


> I heard that if you include a photo or gif. You could get this thread featured.


Thanks for the pro-tip.



Rampage said:


> I see your point but we like to complain on this forum. 😉


Indeed. Somebody's gotta keep getting the view counts up so they can pay their bills.



woggy9 said:


> It actually benefits you, for others to gather and criticize the corporate overlords that we operate as independent contractors for.


So, are you implying that someone in a position of authority at Uber routinely looks for complaining here? I say no way no matter what stories someone told you. I say produce evidence of it or it's merely mental masturbation.



Nats121 said:


> drivers 8 and 9 years ago were paid triple or quadruple what we're being paid now


 Triple is pure BS. And I can produce evidence that it's not true. Yes, profits are down from sustained peaks, but not even by half.



Nats121 said:


> We're not Walmart, we're not even the small mom and pop grocery store. We're one person in one vehicle with an approximate maximum of 12 hours per day to make money.


, I don't understand the distinction you're implying.



Nats121 said:


> Unlike the grocer and Walmart, we don't call the shots for our "business"


Yes we do call some of them. It's called ignore or the circled X (decline). Another is canceling an accepted trip. Another is refusing to allow ride changes (like different destination, add a stop). Another is refusing to pickup a passenger after arriving. Another is canceling delivery pick-up after accepting.



Nats121 said:


> We can't afford "loss leader" rides.


 I'm pretty sure that I never suggested taking any trip where one's cost exceeds, by even a cent, their own costs for that particular trip.



Nats121 said:


> We need an exponentially higher markup than Uber just to break even.


 Exceptionally? Please clarify what you mean.



Nats121 said:


> Multiple trips of that type could ruin an entire week and so forth.


 Agreed. It's precisely why I *severely* limit the quantity of those types that I accept.


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> So, are you implying that someone in a position of authority at Uber routinely looks for complaining here? I say no way no matter what stories someone told you. I say produce evidence of it or it's merely mental masturbation.


Do I have certified by Uber Corporate verification that they read this site? No. Call it a hunch.

There are numerous occasions of tricks or glitches posted here and within a day they were fixed.

Pretty hard to attribute it to coincidence. 

I do, however, know with ontological certitude that they know OF this site.

During the 180 Days of Bullshit Change they had in person meetings. I went to a few. At one a driver was talking with the G.M. for the D.C. area and mentioned something* about this site. The G.M. said he's familiar with UPNet but tried to paint it as wrong information. 

If they know of the site they probably read it. Not saying they're here as regularly as we are but I would be VERY surprised if they didn't occasionally monitor it.

*TBH as long ago as it was I don't remember what the subject was.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Trafficat said:


> You as an Uber driver can only handle 1 passenger at a time. If you have a constant stream of requests, it would be idiotic to accept a low paying request when you could do the high paying request and it consumes the same amount of your time.


Restaurants face this all day every day. The girl who's just ordering for herself (like $9 check) just so happens to get in the ordering line or drive thru line before another woman who's ordering a feast for her family of 5 (like $55 check).



Trafficat said:


> DoorDash sends me offers that will literally cost me more in gas to complete.


 I've never done DD. But UberEATS orders are never costing me more (25-29 MPG and the lowest offer I've ever seen is $2.00, so at $4.20 per gallon in my specific car, I can drive 9 miles before my operating cost is $2.00 ($0.22/mile *total* cost including gas), assuming my labor is $0). I sometimes don't profit much, but that's definitely not a loss. Tips on 8/10 *easily* cover for the 2/10 cheapskates.



Trafficat said:


> As the driver, you can literally be better off by sitting idly in your car than taking a request that will cost you more money in gas than the payout.


 Yeah, if it *ever* exceeds my operating costs per mile, I ignore or reject and wait it out.



New2This said:


> Faulty premises to an extent, as have been pointed out above.


Where? Disagreement doesn't establish false premise.



New2This said:


> For me, I'd rather have done fewer longer trips that paid more rather than do a ton of shorties.


Me too. Everything else being equal I definitely prefer the fewest pick-ups possible per hour, trip volume incentives notwithstanding.



yalik_moba said:


> Why would someone doing trips for beer money when the mood strikes care about the bigger picture of 50 rides a week when that's what they do a year or month?


They won't because they're not running a business. Those folks aren't *****ing in large numbers.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

New2This said:


> There are numerous occasions of tricks or glitches posted here and within a day they were fixed.


 I cannot believe, sans actual evidence, that they're paying anyone to monitor all these forums sufficiently to find a needle in a haystack of sh1tposts. They're just sitting around waiting for someone to post about a bug they didn't know about just so they can do an app patch that night? 🤣 I used to work in software development and maintenance and that's definitely not how it's done in a company like Uber. I assure you.



New2This said:


> If they know of the site they probably read it.


 Don't Stop Believin. These people have stupid meetings and zoom calls to attend, not just lurk around places like this all day just hoping to strike paydirt once every 3 to 6 months.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Heisenburger said:


> Restaurants face this all day every day. The girl who's just ordering for herself (like $9 check) just so happens to get in the ordering line or drive thru line before another woman who's ordering a feast for her family of 5 (like $55 check).


Once you're in the drive through, you cannot escape. The restaurant will serve both customers.

As the Uber driver you cannot serve both customers generally. Serving one will come at the cost of not serving the other.

The restaurant will make $9 and $55. You will make $9 or $55.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Heisenburger said:


> I've never done DD. But UberEATS orders are never costing me more (25-29 MPG and the lowest offer I've ever seen is $2.00, so at $4.20 per gallon in my specific car, I can drive 9 miles before my operating cost is $2.00 ($0.22/mile *total* cost including gas), assuming my labor is $0). I sometimes don't profit much, but that's definitely not a loss. Tips on 8/10 *easily* cover for the 2/10 cheapskates.


DoorDash will send offers like $4 for 26 miles. Gas in my area is $6 per gallon. My car gets 28 mpg. Also consider dead travel distance back to the restaurant.

I wouldn't count on tips from other orders making up for the loss on this order. In fact, taking this order only encourages people not to bid very high since they know they will get a delivery even with a low bid.

Realistically in food delivery, those are not tips, they are bids.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Heisenburger said:


> Yeah, if it *ever* exceeds my operating costs per mile, I ignore or reject and wait it out.


I reject all trips where I feel the opportunity cost for taking them is greater than the value of the trip, even if I make a profit. I always try to make the most money I can. That's why I run 5 apps. I take whatever app is giving me the best offer at the time, and reject anything if I think I am likely to get a better offer from the same or different app in the next few minutes if I just hold tight.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Trafficat said:


> Once you're in the drive through, you cannot escape. The restaurant will serve both customers.
> 
> As the Uber driver you cannot serve both customers generally. Serving one will come at the cost of not serving the other.
> 
> The restaurant will make $9 and $55. You will make $9 or $55.


Your explanation isn't holding water. Exactly as the restaurant does, one first, then the next and then the next after that. It's just a series of transactions. FIFO. You're creating distinctions that aren't meaningful. It's irrelevant that their average time per transaction is shorter than a driver's average, but it's still basically FIFO. And restaurants don't cherry pick which customer orders they're going to fill. They don't look and see that Frank just wants a sweet tea and say "eff Frank and his order, let's just wait for the next customer who wants some of our delicious, homemade Mickey D's fare!"


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> I cannot believe, sans actual evidence, that they're paying anyone to monitor all these forums sufficiently to find a needle in a haystack of sh1tposts. They're just sitting around waiting for someone to post about a bug they didn't know about just so they can do an app patch that night? 🤣 I used to work in software development and maintenance and that's definitely not how it's done in a company like Uber. I assure you.
> 
> Don't Stop Believin. These people have stupid meetings and zoom calls to attend, not just lurk around places like this all day just hoping to strike paydirt once every 3 to 6 months.


It’s naive to think Uber doesn’t utilize this site. Not only do they read this site, but I guarantee they have people posing as drivers who are actually corporate employees.

There was a well-known shill here, a woman who was very sweet. I can’t remember her name, maybe something like Marie. She’s been gone for a few years.

Uber would have a huge Marketing department. Part of a Marketing department’s duty is to do research. And this site is a great tool for that.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Trafficat said:


> I always try to make the most money I can. That's why I run 5 apps.


So:

The most *revenue* or the most *profit*?
And does that mean per *trip* or per *hour*?


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> Triple is pure BS. And I can produce evidence that it's not true. Yes, profits are down from sustained peaks, but not even by half.


Here's a rate chart from San Francisco from January 2013

These rates are more than quadruple today's 








I can probably find more examples.

I'd be curious to see your "evidence".


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Heisenburger said:


> Your explanation isn't holding water. Exactly as the restaurant does, one first, then the next and then the next after that. It's just a series of transactions. FIFO. You're creating distinctions that aren't meaningful.


As a driver you don't do all the trips FIFO. You get one of several available trips available at this moment. The trips you don't take will be taken by a different driver or maybe they'll give up and take a taxi. When you are done with the trip, you get one of several available trips at that moment. 

Let's suppose you and I are both in the same market. I reject all the trips that are bad and you accept everything. You might occasionally get a good trip due to timing, but more likely than not you will be getting all the dregs... the trips I didn't accept for a reason will fall onto you to do.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Invisible said:


> Uber would have a huge Marketing department. Part of a Marketing departments duty is to do research. And this site is a great tool for that.


 Until they realize that it's chock full of paid shills for Lyft and other delivery/gig services who are intentionally poisoning the well to confuse their competitors stakeholders?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Invisible said:


> I *guarantee* they have people posing as drivers who are actually corporate employees.


Please produce some evidence to evaluate for suitability.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Until they realize that it's chock full of paid shills for Lyft and other delivery/gig services who are intentionally poisoning the well to confuse their competitors stakeholders?


This site is another great way to learn more about your competition. Uber may be superior, of course, but not in every market.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Heisenburger said:


> So:
> 
> The most *revenue* or the most *profit*?
> And does that mean per *trip* or per *hour*?


Profit per hour is the only meaningful metric to me.

If Lyft is going to give me a $40 bonus for completing 10 rides like it is this week, I'm gonna pump out 10 of the shortest rides on Lyft to hit that bonus. Per trip the profit may not be great, but per hour it's gonna work out wonderfully when I hit that tenth trip.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Trafficat said:


> Also consider dead travel distance back to the restaurant.


 I don't do that. That's nearly guaranteed to be a waste of my time and unnecessarily increase my expenses.



Trafficat said:


> Realistically in food delivery, those are not tips, they are bids.


Sure. I'm still cool with it regardless of label.



Nats121 said:


> These rates are more than quadruple today's


You showed only the old with no *direct* comparison to current. Homework barely half done. That's a 50% which is an F grade.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

We're amoebas compared to Walmart. A bad ride has vastly more impact on us than a bum sale at Walmart.

Each individual ride for drivers is vastly more important as a result as I've already discussed in a previous post.


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> I cannot believe, sans actual evidence, that they're paying anyone to monitor all these forums sufficiently to find a needle in a haystack of sh1tposts. They're just sitting around waiting for someone to post about a bug they didn't know about just so they can do an app patch that night? 🤣 I used to work in software development and maintenance and that's definitely not how it's done in a company like Uber. I assure you.
> 
> Don't Stop Believin. These people have stupid meetings and zoom calls to attend, not just lurk around places like this all day just hoping to strike paydirt once every 3 to 6 months.


Again I didn't say they have someone here monitoring 24/7.

They would be idiots if they didn't have someone check it occasionally. It's a good barometer for gauging reactions to changes they may have recently made.

It's also ways to find out exploits drivers are doing like the Surge Multiplier glitch or the latest DF trick people were doing.


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## Midwester (6 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> I've learned something here:
> 
> Paid shills notwithstanding, the commenters here who are highly critical of the compensation structure typically have something in common: tunnel vision.
> 
> ...


The corner store owner would probably be irate if Joey's chewing gum and Thomas's ale netted him 1/2 of what they did five years ago.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Please produce some evidence to evaluate for suitability.


I’ll send you some quantitative stats once I finish my report. 😀

Here’s a special message for the Uber shills
on here…


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## d'Uber (Apr 7, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> I've learned something here:
> 
> Paid shills notwithstanding, the commenters here who are highly critical of the compensation structure typically have something in common: tunnel vision.
> 
> ...


Are you a paid shill hired by Lyuber to get drivers to overlook that, as the overhead per ride varies (occupied time, mileage/wear and tear, gas expended), the payment needs to account for the resources allocated? Just a thought.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

New2This said:


> It's also ways to find out exploits drivers are doing like the Surge Multiplier glitch or the latest DF trick people were doing.


I've worked in software before and that's about the worst way to do it. Unreliable content. Confused users. Dead leads. You know they actually pay people to field questions and problems from already authenticated legitimate users, drivers and customers, both via voice calls and chat sessions, right?


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> You showed only the old with no *direct* comparison to current. Homework barely half done. That's a 50% which is an F grade.


It is direct. That's a rate chart for SF in January 2013.

Here's a screenshot taken 5 minutes ago from a Uber Fare Estimate






of SF. As you can see the rates are just a wee bit lower today.

Where's your evidence to prove I'm wrong?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

d'Uber said:


> Are you a paid shill


No, I volunteer.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> That's a rate chart for SF in January 2013.
> 
> Here's a screenshot taken 5 minutes ago


Those aren't supporting your assertion.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> That's a rate chart for SF in January 2013.
> 
> Here's a screenshot taken 5 minutes ago from a Uber Fare Estimate


So yeah, minimum fare went from $10 to $8, a 20% decrease. The other data isn't comparable because it's not in the same units like the time and mileage components are calculated very differently between then and now.

You'd need to first work up a typical trip then and now and *then* compare apples to apples.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

d'Uber said:


> the overhead per ride varies (occupied time, mileage/wear and tear, gas expended), the payment needs to account for the resources allocated?


So, since no two drivers are gonna have identical cost structures (running expenses), *how* exactly is Uber to know these wildly varying costs per driver and per vehicle?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Invisible said:


> Here’s a special message for the Uber shills
> on here…


It's duly noted that I've triggered you. Thanks for the validation.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> It's duly noted that I've triggered you. Thanks for the validation.


Hahaha, go flatter yourself some more. I’m not triggered. I’ve made it quite known for years I despise Uber. I’m not fond of Lyft either. Both continue to show nothing but disdain for drivers.

I found the well-known shill. I was way off on name but it did have an M in it.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Invisible said:


> They continue to show nothing but disdain for drivers.


Yeah, just like these fellas too:

Walmart
Door Dash
Instacart
Amazon
Lyft
GrubHub


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> I've worked in software before and that's about the worst way to do it. Unreliable content. Confused users. Dead leads. You know they actually pay people to field questions and problems from already authenticated legitimate users, drivers and customers, both via voice calls and chat sessions, right?


I was using the UberEats Surge Multiplier glitch for close to two years.

If I had gotten an invitation to participate in something with Uber, you think I'm going to tell them "yeah there's this trick I'm doing that lets me make more money and usually ****s Uber like a Kardashian in a locker room"? 

**** no! I'm not telling them that.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

New2This said:


> I was using the UberEats Surge Multiplier glitch for close to two years.
> 
> If I had gotten an invitation to participate in something with Uber, you think I'm going to tell them "yeah there's this trick I'm doing that lets me make more money and usually ****s Uber like a Kardashian in a locker room"?
> 
> **** no! I'm not telling them that.


It's odd that you'd be so openly critical of an enterprise who laid golden eggs for you. Are you ungrateful?


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Yeah, just like these fellas too:
> 
> Walmart
> Door Dash
> ...


And what’s our point besides deflection?


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## Midwester (6 mo ago)

I mean this as a neutral question, not sarcastic... but didn't drivers around 2016 make 1/3 or even 2× more than now? I don't know from personal experience, but I thought it was conventional knowledge. And that's not even taking current inflation into consideration.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Invisible said:


> And what’s our point besides deflection?


Triggered again!🤣


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Midwester said:


> didn't drivers around 2016 make 1/3 or even 2× more than now?


1/3?! WTH?

2x, yeah that feels approximately right. At least as far as *margins*, but not the case for *gross revenues*. But, given that those *not* running a hybrid or EV have had approximately double the running costs because of the gas price differences between then and now.



> June 13,2016
> 
> The national average price of gas reached a new 2016 high over the weekend, and today’s average of $*2.38 per gallon* is the most expensive average since September 2015. Gas prices have moved higher by two cents per gallon on the week and 16 cents per gallon on the month. Although pump prices have increased for 28 of the past 33 days, consumers continue to benefit from yearly savings and *prices are down 42 cents per gallon compared to a year ago.*


Average U.S. Gas Prices Climb to 2016 High 

As we can see, until most of us are running EVs, gas prices are always gonna be a factor in our operating costs, translating to margins impacts as the price fluctuates, as they do. Hybrid operators are in the middle, impacted but just not as much.


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## Midwester (6 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> 1/3?! WTH?
> 
> 2x, yeah that feels approximately right. At least as far as margins, but not the case for gross revenues. But, given that those *not* running a hybrid or EV have had approximately double the running costs because of the gas price differences between then and now.
> 
> ...


From what I understand, Ubering was very profitable for drivers in the early days! I'm going to have to phase it out (again), as I just can't make it work in my market where I earn $0.55 / mile.


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> It's odd that you'd be so openly critical of an enterprise who laid golden eggs for you. Are you ungrateful?


I started doing Uber around early 2016. It was good part-time cash. 

Uber's constantly tried ****ing drivers over. 

I made it work when I needed it to.

I hated having to constantly improvise and do hacks to make the same money as when I started.

Not ungrateful but frustrated because I can see how, run by a CEO with ethics and a win/win/win philosophy like Richard Branson, Uber could've been great for all parties involved. 

Instead you have the dumpster fire it is today.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> So yeah, minimum fare went from $10 to $8, a 20% decrease. The other data isn't comparable because it's not in the same units like the time and mileage components are calculated very differently between then and now.
> 
> You'd need to first work up a typical trip then and now and *then* compare apples to apples.


The service fee was 10-20% in 2013 as opposed to 25% today.

Based on a 20% Service Fee (which could have been even lower) and the absence of a "booking fee", the 2013 SF drivers were paid...

Base Fare $4.60 / Minimum Fare $8 / $3.00 Per Mile over 11mph (it's a question mark whether or not they were paid for ALL miles of a trip regardless of vehicle speed)/ $0.85 Per Minute under 11mph = $40 per hour waiting time


2022 SF drivers are paid Base Fare $1.65 / Minimum Fare approx $4.50 / Per Mile $0.6825 / Per Minute $0.2925 = $17.55 waiting time

There's my numbers. Where's your numbers?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Midwester said:


> I just can't make it work in my market where I earn $0.55 / mile.


I'm struggling so much too! How can I continue at $1.45/mile?!😱 Amazon distribution center here I come!😥


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## Midwester (6 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> I'm struggling so much too! How can I continue at $1.45/mile?!😱 Amazon distribution center here I come!😥


$1.45 / mile, what state and what do you drive?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> There's my numbers.


Yep, and they don't support your original assertion right here:



Nats121 said:


> These rates are more than quadruple today's





Nats121 said:


> Where's your numbers?


For what? Did make a ridiculous assertion like you? If so, where?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Midwester said:


> $1.45 / mile, what state and what do you drive?


Georgia

Vehicle on profile


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## Midwester (6 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> Georgia
> 
> Vehicle on profile


You make that per mile Uber X? Nice!!
Even if I drove an EV I wouldn't approach that per mile


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

New2This said:


> Instead you have the dumpster fire it is today.


Yeah but it could easily be worse like Tesla these days.


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## radikia (Sep 15, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> No, I volunteer.


The first step towards recovery is admitting that you're an ant ............


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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

OP you fail to realize that most of us have taken more then one or two bad rides. Many people are full time and have extensive skin in the game. Many have tried all different approaches before coming to the confusion of what's acceptable and what's not in order to make a profit. Very few have tunnel vision. Yes there are a few Karen's that like to cherry pick surge only rides but they are the minority.

The worst thing anyone can do is compare this gig industry with a normal business. You will be hard pressed to find any company that accepts any and all business including non profitable business. Try getting an estimate to have one single window blind installed. Try hiring a DJ to do your wedding for one hour. Ask your mechanic why the minimum labor rate to change your rear brake light bulb is 30 minutes when it only takes 2 minutes. The answer is they need to make a profit or else it's just not worth it. No the DJ is not going to take your one hour offer because his 6 hour offer tomorrow will average out everything ok. That's not how this works.

Same thing with food delivery. You should not be allowed to order a burger combo meal for $8 with no tip and expect a driver to deliver it for $2.50. No tunnel vision just wide open crystal clear slavery.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

New2This said:


> Faulty premises to an extent, as have been pointed out above.
> 
> For me, I'd rather have done fewer longer trips that paid more rather than do a ton of shorties. Few reasons:
> 
> ...



I also prefer the longer ride to the short ones but until Uber went to up front pricing I had no idea which offer to turn down. So I would work at the times and stage at the places where I thought the the possibility of a long ride outweighed the possibility of short rides. But because I didnt know where the rider was going the only info I had to base a decision on was the distance to pickup. When gas was cheaper I had no problem with the long pick ups. and I accepted almost everything. A ten mile pick up for 1 mile ride cost me about a half gallon of gas or about $1.50 and the minimum fare was more than that. Even now a ride like that would cost me about $2.50 in gas and the minimum fare is still more than that. 

My point is that although I much prefer the long ride, for the same reasons you do, I had no information to base that "go or no go" decision on....So I took almost every thing. My attitude was, "It all evens out in the end"

Things are different now. Now with "up front" pricing I get all the info I need to make a decision and there is no penalty for rejecting or cancelling rides; I find myself rejecting a lot more rides now. Not because the pay less... on a per mile basis they pay more, but because I still prefer driving one 30 mile on the Interstate to ten 3 mile rides in town


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> OP you fail to realize that most of us have taken more then one or two bad rides. Many people are full time and have extensive skin in the game. Many have tried all different approaches before coming to the confusion of what's acceptable and what's not in order to make a profit. Very few have tunnel vision. Yes there are a few Karen's that like to cherry pick surge only rides but they are the minority.
> 
> The worst thing anyone can do is compare this gig industry with a normal business. You will be hard pressed to find any company that accepts any and all business including non profitable business. Try getting an estimate to have one single window blind installed. Try hiring a DJ to do your wedding for one hour. Ask your mechanic why the minimum labor rate to change your rear brake light bulb is 30 minutes when it only takes 2 minutes. The answer is they need to make a profit or else it's just not worth it. No the DJ is not going to take your one hour offer because his 6 hour offer tomorrow will average out everything ok. That's not how this works.
> 
> Same thing with food delivery. You should not be allowed to order a burger combo meal for $8 with no tip and expect a driver to deliver it for $2.50. No tunnel vision just wide open crystal clear slavery.


The mistake you are making is assuming that there are unprofitable rides and that you can know which pings will be more profitable than others. My mechanic will change out that bulb for free, for me because he knows that Ill be back for the $2000 job when I need it. And because Im likely to refer another driver to him, which I have done.... more than once. He will also do it for somebody he dosent know, because thats how he finds new customers. I recently did have one window blind installed, and no doubt the company made less than if I had done every window in the house, and I paid more.(on a per windo basis) But I was happy with the service and Ill call them back when we do the next room. Ill never hire a DJ for a wedding, Im already married and so is my daughter, and besides that, Pandora works just fine, But I bet that DJ has a minimum price...like we do. And if that DJ has a 6 hour job scheduled for one day and gets a request for a one hour gig the later in the same day... I bet he would take it. 

The rule of thumb in every business is 20% of your customers make you 80% of your profit.. And I will add that, in that 80% there are some customers that will become one of the 20%, but you just dont know who they are

You remind me of the sales clerk on Rodeo Drive that would not serve the Julia Roberts character because she would be a waste of time, Only to watch her spend thousands of the Richard Gere characters money the next day.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

_look_


oldfart said:


> The mistake you are making is assuming that there are unprofitable rides and that you can know which pings will be more profitable than others. My mechanic will change out that bulb for free, for me because he knows that Ill be back for the $2000 job when I need it. And because Im likely to refer another driver to him, which I have done.... more than once. He will also do it for somebody he dosent know, because thats how he finds new customers. I recently did have one window blind installed, and no doubt the company made less than if I had done every window in the house, and I paid more.(on a per windo basis) But I was happy with the service and Ill call them back when we do the next room. Ill never hire a DJ for a wedding, Im already married and so is my daughter, and besides that, Pandora works just fine, But I bet that DJ has a minimum price...like we do. And if that DJ has a 6 hour job scheduled for one day and gets a request for a one hour gig the later in the same day... I bet he would take it.
> 
> The rule of thumb in every business is 20% of your customers make you 80% of your profit.. And I will add that, in that 80% there are some customers that will become one of the 20%, but you just dont know who they are
> 
> You remind me of the sales clerk on Rodeo Drive that would not serve the Julia Roberts character because she would be a waste of time, Only to watch her spend thousands of the Richard Gere characters money the next day.


We know any long trip is going to be a loser here (without surge)
60 cents a mile becomes 30
Sad people do them


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Here's a rate chart from San Francisco from January 2013
> 
> These rates are more than quadruple today's
> View attachment 668575
> ...


So all I need is a time machine to take me to San Francisco in 2013

The fact is that if I did have a time machine Id go to San Francisco in the 1960's....Money isnt everything... Owsley Acid might be


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

wallae said:


> _look_
> 
> We know any long trip is going to be a loser here (without surge)
> 60 cents a mile becomes 30
> Sad people do them


I dont look at one ride at a time. I look at averages. Uber recently made a change here so we dont get paid by the mile. We now see all the details of the ride up front including our payand there is no penalty for rejecting rides, So in spite of my belief that there are no unprofitable rides, I am rejecting more rides now than I used to, because now I have the information I need to make a decision

The one thing Ive learned for sure is that the way to make money doing this thing is to reduce the dead miles you drive.to as close to zero as you possible can That 60 cents a mile is still 60 cents as long as you continue to work in the area you dropped that guy off

I recently accepted a 150 mile ride (Fort Myers to Tampa) that paid $99 (66 cents per mile) I didnt drive home empty.(home was 120 miles away) I went to the Tampa airport ang got a $50 ride, followed by a $20 ride Thats when I called it a day and went home. So 270 miles, $170. For the day I drove 360 miles for $252 (70 cents a mile) and for that week I drove 1685 miles for $1253 or 74 cents a mile which less than my average but it didnt reduce my average since the first of the year at all...Im still at 80 cents a mile.


All this is to say Minimize you dead miles by working where the ride takes you and that if you have a bad day one day, you make it up with a good day another It all evens out in the end


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> Ask your mechanic why the minimum labor rate to change your rear brake light bulb is 30 minutes when it only takes 2 minutes. The answer is they need to make a profit or else it's just not worth it. No the DJ is not going to take your one hour offer because his 6 hour offer tomorrow will average out everything ok.


You selected the wrong example. I know a lot about the auto repair and maintenance industry. A lot. Your description of it is inaccurate and false. I know many mechanic shops, both independent mom and pop sizes to dealership versions, who, in any randomly selected week, have:

Several jobs/transactions which, if they calculate it, are higher margins
Several jobs/transactions which, if they calculate it, are lower margins
A few jobs/transactions which, if they calculate it, are losses or negative margins
Many of these business owners or managers accept each of these jobs generally pretty clear eyed about its margins outcome. They do it because that's simply how the vast majority of businesses of all types and all industries works.

These are the facts my friend.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

wallae said:


> Sad people do them


How do you know the mood of those who do them?


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> How do you know the mood of those who do them?


Haven’t you seen them?


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## Midwester (6 mo ago)

wallae said:


> _look_
> 
> We know any long trip is going to be a loser here (without surge)
> 60 cents a mile becomes 30
> Sad people do them


60 cents would be a raise for me! Getting 55 cents / mile here. Taking a risk on no surge rides, with the hope the passenger will at least tip. I was on the losing end recently when I gave a ride that was 28 minutes, no surge and then no tip, for $15. BEFORE deducting gas usage!


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Midwester said:


> 60 cents would be a raise for me! Getting 55 cents / mile here. Taking a risk on no surge rides, with the hope the passenger will at least tip. I was on the losing end recently when I gave a ride that was 28 minutes, no surge and then no tip, for $15.


As long as people take them why should they raise the price😆

here with our slow roads your trip is nine bucks for 28 minutes
10 miles at .60 and usually with an equal ride home empty
That’s why if I don’t get +7.5o or more surge I sit rejecting all


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## Midwester (6 mo ago)

wallae said:


> As long as people take them why should they raise the price😆


I don't see destination info beforehand, so it's always a risk (in terms of whether it will be a significant enough money maker or not). With said risk, the hope is that my other rides will offer enough of a surge and/or tip to even things out. Regardless, I realize this isn't sustainable for me (in my region and with a gas vehicle).


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Midwester said:


> I don't see destination info beforehand, so it's always a risk (in terms of whether it will be a significant enough money maker or not). With said risk, the hope is that my other rides will offer enough of a surge and/or tip to even things out. Regardless, I realize this isn't sustainable for me (in my region and with a gas vehicle).


I don’t see them either
I usually ask if they’re staying in the city limits. 
If not I cancel
I’m not working at a loss for Uber to make money


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> I've learned something here:
> 
> Paid shills notwithstanding, the commenters here who are highly critical of the compensation structure typically have something in common: tunnel vision.
> 
> ...


Many of the people on here dont understand 
you need to do the work in order to get paid
The time that gets spent screwing around trying to weed out bad trips would be much better spent doing some of those trips and making some $$$
I dont look at individual trips. I look at how much I made during the 12 hour shift, the 7 day work week and by the year. My market is probably very prime and lucrative from what I'm hearing from some around here. They may be in a market that cant support a good living or maybe just not willing to do the work. I'm at 35k trips over 6 years and making the most cash I ever did. You will never hear me whining about only .63 a mile or .21 a minute
Do the freakin work and the money will add up
ITS THAT SIMPLE..


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> Many of the people on here dont understand
> you need to do the work in order to get paid
> The time that gets spent screwing around trying to weed out bad trips would be much better spent doing some of those trips and making some $$$


QFT!


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Heisenburger said:


> They seem ignorant of the fact that many businesses experience profit margin variations from one transaction to the next across different customers. For example, the convenience store owner doesn't receive the same profit when Joey buys a pack of chewing gum as when Thomas buys a 24 pack of Heineken. The profit margin is different despite each transaction being a single item and taking the same amount of time and effort for the clerk to complete the sale (unless Joey is paying with pocket coins and forgot about tax and has to dig for more coins and Thomas is paying with a card at the terminal).


This is an apples-oranges comparison, for one simple reason: in a convenience store, separate sales transactions are not mutually exclusive, whereas our sales transactions are. Selling Joey a pack of gum does not preclude selling Thomas a 24 pack of beer seconds later. The store simply makes the sale to Joey and then adds the revenue and profit from the sale to Thomas.

On the other hand, our transactions and potential transactions _are _mutually exclusive - if we take a poorly-paying ping then we remove ourselves from the market for the duration of that ride, precluding the sale of our services to a better-paying pax for that duration.

This is why we must evaluate all pings on an individual basis and be selective in order to maximise profit.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Triggered again!🤣


nah, I like you’re the one triggered. 😃


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Trafficat said:


> The corner store owner would be livid about the low cost purchases if the line got so long that the heineken customer got frustrated and then left. He'd stop selling the chewing gum if this always happened.
> 
> OR if he wants the profit from both, he'd hire a helper to handle the lines if the benefit of the helper is greater than the loss from folks not checking out due to too long lines.
> 
> ...


This is correct - our sales opportunities which present at or near the same time are mutually exclusive, whereas retail sales are not - the when there are several customers at once they simply form a line and their transactions are completed quickly in sequence.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> OP you fail to realize that most of us have taken more then one or two bad rides. Many people are full time and have extensive skin in the game. Many have tried all different approaches before coming to the confusion of what's acceptable and what's not in order to make a profit. Very few have tunnel vision. Yes there are a few Karen's that like to cherry pick surge only rides but they are the minority.
> 
> The worst thing anyone can do is compare this gig industry with a normal business. You will be hard pressed to find any company that accepts any and all business including non profitable business. Try getting an estimate to have one single window blind installed. Try hiring a DJ to do your wedding for one hour. Ask your mechanic why the minimum labor rate to change your rear brake light bulb is 30 minutes when it only takes 2 minutes. The answer is they need to make a profit or else it's just not worth it. No the DJ is not going to take your one hour offer because his 6 hour offer tomorrow will average out everything ok. That's not how this works.
> 
> Same thing with food delivery. You should not be allowed to order a burger combo meal for $8 with no tip and expect a driver to deliver it for $2.50. No tunnel vision just wide open crystal clear slavery.


What kind of a driver would be a karen 
and cherry pick rides you ask? 
Much better question might be what kind of an imbecile wouldnt cherry pick rides?
Someone on here that's complaining about rates
and how much they got per mile I'm guessing
We are drivers that are supposed to do the job
Sometimes we get trips we didnt want or that make our dollars per hour go down
But while you are complaining about the ride you didnt want to take someone else is doing it.
You say you didnt want the $7 surge but now you have nothing and the cherrypicker has $7 plus the fare and maybe a multiplier too. You need to do the work if you wanna get paid. Dont worry about miles cars are cheap compared to the money you can make by constantly having the wheels rolling
I didnt say pickup everything but get those surges and do the rides. Sometimes its gonna suck and you'll make $20 an hour because of a deadhead
Tell the freaking pax man uber keeps 1/2 the money I'm gonna make $20 an hour less gas on this ride
Many times they will toss you a bone and you blow a destination filter if you are far enough or think there may be a ride back. Pick a quest you can make and do a couple shitty rides maybe every a shared ride.
Theres alot of money to be made unless you are in a bad market. Then nothing can help you and you shouldnt be driving to begin with......
This may be market specific and you dont ever get surges or quests. Then maybe you should goto where the rides are or do something else....


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

elelegido said:


> This is an apples-oranges comparison, for one simple reason: in a convenience store, separate sales transactions are not mutually exclusive, whereas our sales transactions are. Selling Joey a pack of gum does not preclude selling Thomas a 24 pack of beer seconds later. The store simply makes the sale to Joey and then adds the revenue and profit from the sale to Thomas.
> 
> On the other hand, our transactions and potential transactions _are _mutually exclusive - if we take a poorly-paying ping then we remove ourselves from the market for the duration of that ride, precluding the sale of our services to a better-paying pax for that duration.
> 
> This is why we must evaluate all pings on an individual basis and be selective in order to maximise profit.


I find your analysis unconvincing. They're still serial transactions. FIFO. That in one setting they occur more frequently (more average transactions per hour) is irrelevant.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

elelegido said:


> the when there are several customers at once they simply form a line and their transactions are completed quickly in sequence.


Until someone sees the long line and aborts their purchase and goes to the competition (store, restaurant, gas station) next door or across the street or around the corner. I see this happen routinely and I do it myself fairly regularly. Long drive through at McDonald's, hello Taco Bell. All gas pumps occupied and cars fighting to navigate around each other in a gas station parking lot that has the cheapest on that corner on that day, I go across the street and pay $0.03 more per gallon for my 8 gallons. They got an extra $0.24 from me and I avoided the madness and overcrowded gas station madness. Win-win.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> But *while you are complaining about the ride you didnt want to take someone else is doing it.*
> You say you didnt want the $7 surge but *now you have nothing* and the cherrypicker has $7 plus the fare and maybe a multiplier too. You need to do the work if you wanna get paid. *Dont worry about miles cars are cheap compared to the money you can make by constantly having the wheels rolling*
> I didnt say pickup everything but *get those surges and do the rides*. Sometimes its gonna suck and you'll make $20 an hour because of a deadhead


QFT!


----------



## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

oldfart said:


> The mistake you are making is assuming that there are unprofitable rides and that you can know which pings will be more profitable than others. My mechanic will change out that bulb for free, for me because he knows that Ill be back for the $2000 job when I need it. And because Im likely to refer another driver to him, which I have done.... more than once. He will also do it for somebody he dosent know, because thats how he finds new customers. I recently did have one window blind installed, and no doubt the company made less than if I had done every window in the house, and I paid more.(on a per windo basis) But I was happy with the service and Ill call them back when we do the next room. Ill never hire a DJ for a wedding, Im already married and so is my daughter, and besides that, Pandora works just fine, But I bet that DJ has a minimum price...like we do. And if that DJ has a 6 hour job scheduled for one day and gets a request for a one hour gig the later in the same day... I bet he would take it.
> 
> The rule of thumb in every business is 20% of your customers make you 80% of your profit.. And I will add that, in that 80% there are some customers that will become one of the 20%, but you just dont know who they are
> 
> You remind me of the sales clerk on Rodeo Drive that would not serve the Julia Roberts character because she would be a waste of time, Only to watch her spend thousands of the Richard Gere characters money the next day.


Terrible example using the seen from the Pretty Woman movie. You are comparing outright discrimination assuming someone is poor versus someone telling you upfront I'm a cheapskate. I guarantee you if Julia Roberts told the lady upfront that she didn't want to spend more than $20 she would of been given directions to the Goodwill store. Please stop defending these scumbag companies.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

I feel like some participants in this useful conversation would be wise to take 6 to read this one:









Profit Margin


Profit margin gauges the degree to which a company or a business activity makes money. It represents what percentage of sales has turned into profits.




www.investopedia.com


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Here's a rate chart from San Francisco from January 2013


Boom!


> The New York City Taxi and Limousine Commission (TLC) reported Thursday that total fares are down 44 percent since 2013, from $193,991,786 in March 2013 to $108,847,814 in March 2019.


NYC Yellow Cab Drivers' Earnings Have Fallen 44 Percent Since 2013


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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Boom!
> 
> NYC Yellow Cab Drivers' Earnings Have Fallen 44 Percent Since 2013


If you don't mind taking a combination of profitable and non profitable rides/deliveries because it averages out, please do whatever works for you. It does not work for many others and it's not because they have tunnel vision. We have tested it out in our markets and have realized that one size does not fit all.

In the past I have made more with 2 surge rides within 3 hours than I did in a 12 hour day with less miles and less fuel costs. I can also drive 30 minutes to the Jersey Shore border where base rates are double and work less hours to achieve the same amount. If a driver prefers this approach who are we to tell them they should be more flexible with picking lower paying rides? I do get your point but it sounds like the only person with tunnel vision is you. Everybody's situation can be different.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Heisenburger said:


> I find your analysis unconvincing. They're still serial transactions. FIFO. That in one setting they occur more frequently (more average transactions per hour) is irrelevant.


Not necessarily - transactions in a shop are often parallel with multiple cashiers. But, even in the case of a single cashier, what differentiates store sales apart from rideshare sales is not the serial nature of sales, but the mutual exclusivity of the rideshare sales as compared to the queued nature of the store. That is, a cashier selling a low-margin item in a store does not prevent a large-margin sale from taking place; the purchaser simply queues for a few seconds, whereas a rideshare driver taking a 30 minute, $7 ride is excluding himself from accepting all rides that pay more than that for the next 30 minutes, lowering his profit.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Heisenburger said:


> Until someone sees the long line and aborts their purchase and goes to the competition (store, restaurant, gas station) next door or across the street or around the corner. I see this happen routinely and I do it myself fairly regularly. Long drive through at McDonald's, hello Taco Bell. All gas pumps occupied and cars fighting to navigate around each other in a gas station parking lot that has the cheapest on that corner on that day, I go across the street and pay $0.03 more per gallon for my 8 gallons. They got an extra $0.24 from me and I avoided the madness and overcrowded gas station madness. Win-win.


Yes, sometimes queues in stores are excessive.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

elelegido said:


> whereas a rideshare driver taking a 30 minute, $7 ride is excluding himself from accepting all rides that pay more than that for the next 30 minutes, lowering his profit.


So just exactly like the:

Plumbers?
Electricians?
Pest control techs?
Carpet cleaners?
Auto mechanics?
AC/Heat techs?
Floor installers?


----------



## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Heisenburger said:


> So just exactly like the:
> 
> Plumbers?
> Electricians?
> ...


Possibly. If a potential client calls a plumber and says, "I've got a two hour job for you tomorrow afternoon and I offer you 30 bucks for it", then it would behoove the plumber to decline it, _if he believes that there is a good chance of getting a higher-paid job for that same time period_. In exactly the same way that it would behoove a rideshare driver to turn down a 2 hour there-and-back ride for 30 bucks, the reason is because during the time occupied on the low-paying job it would be impossible to do any higher-paid work.

The concept of opportunity cost comes into this. One cost of doing a job is the lost revenue from other jobs. I explained this once to a pax who wanted to take me across the SF Bay Bridge into Oakland in a.m. rush hour. I said, "If I take you across the bridge, it's only a 30 minute trip over and I will earn $20, but I will get stuck on the other side of the bridge and it will take me 1 hour to just to get back onto the bridge, making it a near-2 hour trip for $20. Or. if I stay in Oakland and work there then I will earn $25 per hour there. Or, I can just stay in SF and make $35 per hour. So, if I take your trip, it is the same as rolling my window down and throwing money out the window".

In this case, the opportunity cost of doing the ride to Oakland and either waiting to get back on the bridge or working the rest of the rush hour in Oakland was all the fares that I would have got in San Francisco. Again, this is why it's necessary to evaluate each ping - to eliminate or minimise the opportunity cost of giving rides.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> If you don't mind taking a combination of profitable and non profitable rides/deliveries because it averages out, please do whatever works for you.


I definitely routinely take a combination of both *higher* and *lower* profit margin trips each day, week and month. I'd venture to say that I have never knowingly (in advance) taken a loss on any single trip. That's because I know my average operating cost, both per mile and per hour and I can perform two multiplication problems in my head for each Uber offer that graces my mobile device display. YMMV.

I encourage others to act similarly.



ThrowInTheTowel said:


> It does not work for many others and it's not because they have tunnel vision.


Yes, they do. They choose the per trip method of valuation and then whine to others about their chosen methodology.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

elelegido said:


> One cost of doing a job is the lost revenue from other jobs.


*And* its attendant costs avoided. When I elect to take on job B, I'm simultaneously avoiding both the costs and revenues of jobs A and C.

This *should* be common sense, but I sense that we don't have too many business savvy folk trolling around these parts.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Heisenburger said:


> *And* its attendant costs avoided. When I elect to take on job B, I'm simultaneously avoiding both the costs and revenues of jobs A and C.
> 
> This *should* be common sense, but I sense that we don't have too many business savvy folk trolling around these parts.


Yes, the assumption in my comparison was similar costs for the differing scenarios, i.e. the costs of motoring around SF in rush hour are the same as motoring around Oakland in rush hour.

Costs do come into it, as you say. Two hours in the city with $60 total revenue likely has more profit than a two hour 120 mile there-and-back road trip that also pays $60 because of the higher costs of the latter.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

elelegido said:


> This is an apples-oranges comparison, for one simple reason: in a convenience store, separate sales transactions are not mutually exclusive, whereas our sales transactions are. Selling Joey a pack of gum does not preclude selling Thomas a 24 pack of beer seconds later. The store simply makes the sale to Joey and then adds the revenue and profit from the sale to Thomas.
> 
> On the other hand, our transactions and potential transactions _are _mutually exclusive - if we take a poorly-paying ping then we remove ourselves from the market for the duration of that ride, precluding the sale of our services to a better-paying pax for that duration.
> 
> This is why we must evaluate all pings on an individual basis and be selective in order to maximise profit.


the opportunity cost is something to consider but there is opportunity cost to taking the better paying job too. Who knows, maybe you wouldhave gotten a short ride with a big tip while you were on that seemingly more profitable ride.. And who knows, when you turn down a long pickup ride, for only that reason, you may have turned down a longer profitable ride

Im all for turning down the crap rides, and have started to do so, because my market has upfront pricing and we get all the details of the ride before accepting it....but you dont know whats crap unless you get that information


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Heisenburger said:


> I sense that we don't have too many business savvy folk trolling around these parts.


I definitely have seen a few belt-and-braces good ol' boys on here who say stuff like, "Welp... if I earn myself $5 for a half-hour's work, that's $5 that I didn't have before!"

But I think that most drivers intuitively know that it's best to scrutinise each ping and reject the low-profit rides in favour of the high-profit rides in order to maximise profit. I would hope so, anyway.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

elelegido said:


> Two hours in the city with $60 total revenue likely has more profit than a two hour 120 mile there-and-back road trip that also pays $60 because of the higher costs of the latter.


Please convince me.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Heisenburger said:


> Please convince me.


Lower costs (greater reduction in total miles driven than the reduction in mpg) in achieving the same revenue


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

elelegido said:


> Lower costs (greater reduction in total miles driven than the reduction in mpg) in achieving the same revenue


Given that miles on the odometer is simply a proxy for the *actual* cost, it doesn't necessarily follow that more miles equals more cost.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

elelegido said:


> I definitely have seen a few belt-and-braces good ol' boys on here who say stuff like, "Welp... if I earn myself $5 for a half-hour's work, that's $5 that I didn't have before!"
> 
> But I think that most drivers intuitively know that it's best to scrutinise each ping and reject the low-profit rides in favour of the high-profit rides in order to maximise profit. I would hope so, anyway.


How do you determine which rides will be be more profitable ie what information do you get with the ping? and what are your acceptance criteria? 

Im not asking to challenge. Im asking to learn. Until recently all I got with the ping was the distance to pickup, and I never thought that that was enough to base a decision on


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

oldfart said:


> How do you determine which rides will be be more profitable ie what information do you get with the ping? and what are your acceptance criteria?
> 
> Im not asking to challenge. Im asking to learn. Until recently all I got with the ping was the distance to pickup, and I never thought that that was enough to base a decision on


If that's all you got, don't take a risk taking a ride more than 7 minutes away unless you're getting a long pickup fee.

And turn the app off if another app has surge.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> Tell the freaking pax man uber keeps 1/2 the money I'm gonna make $20 an hour less gas on this ride


I have published my average hourly *net* income from base fares (excludes any boost, surge, tips) on my driver profile page for the past few years to generate awareness and further conversation.

I figure that using that metric is about as close to traditional pay structure at a McJob and the preaching can reach the lowest common denominator.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> I have published my average hourly *net* income from base fares (excludes any boost, surge, tips) on my driver profile page for the past few years to generate awareness and further conversation.
> 
> I figure that using that metric is about as close to traditional pay structure at a McJob and the preaching can reach the lowest common denominator.


I didnt really want to talk about it but this whining gets old. There are ways to deal with it and complaining about it here does absolutely nothing


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> We don't call the shots for our "business", another entity does.


Spot on.
Uber could raise rates on low-profit rides (& hopefully not lower them on high-profit rides) and stop/reduce cherry-picking, until then it is almost like they want us to cherrypick.


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> Please produce some evidence to evaluate for suitability.


Drivers started regularly posting that changing the time on destination filters would keep you in the zone that you wanted to be in.
Now, Uber has taken that away.
This is evidence but not proof of Uber personnel watching us.

Shill posts are evidence but not proof of Uber personnel trying to influence us.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Wil Mette said:


> Drivers started regularly posting that changing the time on destination filters would keep you in the zone that you wanted to be in.
> Now, Uber has taken that away.
> This is evidence but not proof of Uber personnel watching us.
> 
> Shill posts are evidence but not proof of Uber personnel trying to influence us.


Correlation isn't causation.


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## avidday04 (Sep 15, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> I've learned something here:
> 
> Paid shills notwithstanding, the commenters here who are highly critical of the compensation structure typically have something in common: tunnel vision.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely right and it’s even worse than that. I was in the field of pizza delivery for years and drivers always complained about the low tip or no tip orders they take but rarely bring up all the high tip orders. The drivers would be making 3-4x minimum wage on average then complain about a $200 car repair.

You have to operate under the law of averages mindset. Sure you’ll have a bad day or even a bad week but you have to track your earnings over time.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Rampage said:


> but we like to complain on this forum.


The naive reader would assume it's a paid gig around here.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Heisenburger said:


> Correlation isn't causation.


Clearly you have never seen a Nicholas Cage film. I wanted to drown myself last time too!


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Wil Mette said:


> Drivers started regularly posting that changing the time on destination filters would keep you in the zone that you wanted to be in.
> Now, Uber has taken that away.
> This is evidence but not proof of Uber personnel watching us.
> 
> Shill posts are evidence but not proof of Uber personnel trying to influence us.




In the early days there was definitely people from Uber monitoring this and other forums.
In fact, support used this forum for informationbat times. By 2016 Uber had grown way to big to be concerned with us. There were a couple of support reps who used to post here. @thehappytypist is one I remember. 


I'm sure if some hack/ glitch / behavior posted here was brought to the attention of the powers that be with the respective company it would get attention but i doubt there's active forum monitors employed. Plus, that was more of a Kalanick thing. 

It is very possible some of 29,300 employees of Uber lurk here or even have accounts and post. It's possible that one or more of them read some posts on drivers using the destination filter hack to their advantage and told their supervisor who then told who ever is in charge of that part of the app. 

Or more likely, one of the hundreds of $150k / year data scientists spent months pouring over data on how we use the destination filter and noticed drivers changing the destination and arive time repeatedly and never arriving at their destination.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Boca Ratman said:


> Or more likely, one of the hundreds of $150k / year data scientists spent months pouring over data on how we use the destination filter and noticed drivers changing the destination and arive time repeatedly and never arriving at their destination.


Yeah, this is easy to figure out. They wouldn't need users to show them how it works. They're not *that* incompetent.


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## robert2 (Nov 7, 2015)

Wil Mette said:


> Drivers started regularly posting that changing the time on destination filters would keep you in the zone that you wanted to be in.
> Now, Uber has taken that away.
> This is evidence but not proof of Uber personnel watching us.
> 
> Shill posts are evidence but not proof of Uber personnel trying to influence us.


Uber trying to influence us? Lol - did you see ads for prop 22 and all the stooges exclaiming about the virtues of being ripped off by Uber?


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> Correlation isn't causation.


That is why I said it "is evidence but not proof".
There are many things that are hard to prove but are true. I do not have access to the inner workings of Uber and can not prove it to be correct.

Can you prove that it is wrong?

Can you prove that you are not an Uber shill? No, but that does not mean that you are one.


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

robert2 said:


> Uber trying to influence us? Lol - did you see ads for prop 22 and all the stooges exclaiming about the virtues of being ripped off by Uber?


But "If we are employees, we will lose all of our flexibility." Or "If California doesn't make Uber drivers ICs again, Uber will leave the state!"
Meanwhile, in Jolly Old England, Uber drivers are determined by the courts to be "workers," not contractors, entitled to overtime & minimum wage. The drivers can sign on & off just like before.
Ditto the Netherlands.
Ditto Switzerland.
Ditto France.
But if California makes drivers employees, then it has to be different!!! At least if you listen to most dicussions.

I think that being an IC is better than being an employee. But, being an employee is much better than being an IC without contractor rights & without employee rights under an Uber-drafted law.


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## Holyan (Nov 19, 2018)

Wil Mette said:


> Drivers started regularly posting that changing the time on destination filters would keep you in the zone that you wanted to be in.
> Now, Uber has taken that away.
> This is evidence but not proof of Uber personnel watching us.
> 
> Shill posts are evidence but not proof of Uber personnel trying to influence us.



why drivers are suprised at Uber’s practices . I have no idea.


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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

I truly respect everyone's opinions. There are many opinions that I do not agree with but they at least do make some sense so I always keep an open mind. But when I see someone go out of their way and spend half the day in the forums challenging everything bad about Uber and defending bad business practices, I start to get very suspicious. 

There is good and bad in everything. The majority of the current or retired disgruntled Rideshare driver's are not upset because Uber is all bad. They are upset because it was an opportunity to be the greatest thing since sliced bread for Uber, the driver's, and riders but they blew all for greed. 

There are many positive things like flexible schedule, instant pay, and options like Uber Eats where a parent could bring a child along and still make money. But anybody who tries to defend the deceptive business practices of the gig companies are either desperate, naive, or a 100% shill.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Wil Mette said:


> Can you prove that it is wrong?


 Burden of proof lies with he who alleges/asserts/claims or otherwise insists that something is true. Please read:



> Burden of Proof
> 
> A fallacy is when someone makes an argument based on unsound reasoning. *Burden of proof is one type of fallacy in which someone makes a claim, but puts the burden of proof onto the other side*. For example, a person makes a claim. Another person refutes the claim, and the first person asks them to prove that the claim is not true. In a logical argument, *if someone states a claim, it is up to that person to prove the truth of his or her claim.*
> 
> ...





Wil Mette said:


> The drivers can sign on & off just like before.


 Can you honestly envision that happening here in the US anytime in the next century?



ThrowInTheTowel said:


> They are upset because it was an opportunity to be the *greatest thing since sliced bread* for Uber, the driver's, and riders but they blew all for greed.


 Greatest thing...? Said whom and when? And someone actually believed that?


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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Burden of proof lies with he who alleges/asserts/claims or otherwise insists that something is true. Please read:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup. In the beginning I honestly believed that it could have been. But then again I also believed you were just a driver trying to help other drivers. Guess I am just a sucker for deceitfulness. 🤷‍♂️


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## Ubermillionaire (Jan 19, 2021)

wallae said:


> _look_
> 
> We know any long trip is going to be a loser here (without surge)
> 60 cents a mile becomes 30
> Sad people do them











Heisenberg loves these rides. He’s an Uber driver. The 16 yr old at McDonald’s is making more than him . So stop starting unwanted conversations with pax. I’m sure Uber corporate is closely watching his every move. 🙄


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Holyan said:


> why drivers are suprised at Uber’s practices . I have no idea.


Haha 
Last night early was red everywhere because of some concert. +3 to +8
I turned down a few 3s and got a request 
+ 4.2x
Turned down as I expected that’s going to be a 2 block ride
Always trying to trick you
Seems it would be easier to do well if have credibility with your workers instead of them expecting to get F Ed
🤣


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> I truly respect everyone's opinions. There are many opinions that I do not agree with but they at least do make some sense so I always keep an open mind. But when I see someone go out of their way and spend half the day in the forums challenging everything bad about Uber and defending bad business practices, I start to get very suspicious.
> 
> There is good and bad in everything. The majority of the current or retired disgruntled Rideshare driver's are not upset because Uber is all bad. They are upset because it was an opportunity to be the greatest thing since sliced bread for Uber, the driver's, and riders but they blew all for greed.
> 
> There are many positive things like flexible schedule, instant pay, and options like Uber Eats where a parent could bring a child along and still make money. But anybody who tries to defend the deceptive business practices of the gig companies are either desperate, naive, or a 100% shill.


I disagree with the ending 
The pay has to equal the skill and difficulty
If you can make 50 an hour why would anyone be a roofer or work at McDonald’s 
Why go to college or join the military 
Why go to flight school 
In my younger days I was offered 1600 a month to be a pilot 
I was able to say no as I had heavy time 
Now I’m able to say no to bad rides as I have money 
But this guy is accepting 
And some here get it my face for complaining about him and his car🤣


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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

wallae said:


> I disagree with the ending
> The pay has to equal the skill and difficulty
> If you can make 50 an hour why would anyone be a roofer or work at McDonald’s
> Why go to college or join the military
> ...


I've always said the pay should be fare. No driver regardless of geographic location should earn $10-$12 an hour after expenses when using their own vehicle. No they should not be able to put their kids thru college doing Rideshare but they also shouldn't end up with a 200,000 mile vehicle for minimum wage. A 10% acceptance rate should not be the only solution.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> I've always said the pay should be fare.


😄



ThrowInTheTowel said:


> No driver regardless of geographic location should earn $10-$12 an hour


What if they're just driving around aimlessly while 42 offers per hour go ignored and zero trips completed? How much is that worth to you?


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> 😄
> 
> What if they're just driving around aimlessly while 42 offers per hour go ignored and zero trips completed? How much is that worth to you?


Then they are being paid fairly. $0 for 0 work. 

What's your point?


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

wallae said:


> Haha
> Last night early was red everywhere because of some concert. +3 to +8
> I turned down a few 3s and got a request
> + 4.2x
> ...



Wouldnt a short ride be a good thing under those circumstances, allowing you to grab another ride with a high surge

I have never seen a 4x surge in nearly 5 years of driving so I dont know


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

f


ThrowInTheTowel said:


> I've always said the pay should be fare. No driver regardless of geographic location should earn $10-$12 an hour after expenses when using their own vehicle. No they should not be able to put their kids thru college doing Rideshare but they also shouldn't end up with a 200,000 mile vehicle for minimum wage. A 10% acceptance rate should not be the only solution.


How a


oldfart said:


> Wouldnt a short ride be a good thing under those circumstances, allowing you to grab another ride with a high surge
> 
> I have never seen a 4x surge in nearly 5 years of driving so I dont know


Not when it’s just 1 mile
Last one I got was like 4 dollars 
I don’t trust Uber after trying 2
Uber is out for Uber 
2 seconds later got +8


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Boca Ratman said:


> What's your point?


Trying to gain clarity on how much actual work TTIT is expecting to receive and at what minimum hourly rate. See this:



ThrowInTheTowel said:


> No driver regardless of geographic location should earn $10-$12 an hour after expenses when using their own vehicle.


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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Trying to gain clarity on how much actual work TTIT is expecting to receive and at what minimum hourly rate. See this:


It doesn't take rocket science to figure out what is fair. In my state minimum wage is $13 to pump gas. I would think somebody beating the hell out of their car on a daily basis with gas expenses should be averaging a lot more than that. $18 to $20 per hour should be the minimum. Yes there are many areas where drivers average closer to minimum wage but of course it is their fault for not being smart like the rest of you.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> 18 to $20 per hour should be the minimum


Okay thanks. For how many miles or minutes (per hour) of driving to a pick-up and drop-off?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> It doesn't take rocket science to figure out what is fair.


You're arguing against and shaking your fists towards the clouds on this one since I never implied such.


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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Okay thanks. For how many miles or minutes (per hour) of driving to a pick-up and drop-off?


I respect the fact that you use detailed calculations of mileage/time when it comes to crunching profit numbers, but I think most people just want to keep things simple. If I was behind the wheel 10 hours today and grossed $230. I would subtract my $30 fuel costs and divide $200 by 10 hours and my average is $20 per hour. 

If your using an already paid for used car it makes no sense to complicate things. That's what the tax accountant's job is at income tax time to find as many write offs as possible. To each their own. Keep it simple.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> If I was behind the wheel 10 hours today and grossed $230. I would subtract my $30 fuel costs and divide $200 by 10 hours and my average is $20 per hour.



Your vehicle doesn't ever get any *maintenance* (like oil, coolant, transmission fluid change) or it's all done for free?
Your vehicle doesn't ever get any *repairs* (like new battery, starter, alternator, radiator) or it's all done for free?


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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Your vehicle doesn't ever get any *maintenance* (like oil, coolant, transmission fluid change) or it's all done for free?
> Your vehicle doesn't ever get any *repairs* (like new battery, starter, alternator, radiator) or it's all done for free?


Of course it does and the actual hourly rate is much lower. Claim the mileage deduction on your income taxes problem solved. Unless you are living in your car driving 60 plus hours a week there's no need to make things complicated. Most people don't expect to get rich doing this gig. If you can work your own schedule and earn a steady paycheck comparable to a real job then today was a good day. Pay driver's fare and most will be happy. All this fuss and mathematical calculations over true profit is overrated.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> Claim the mileage deduction on your income taxes problem solved.


What problem?


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> What problem?



Taxes...

A tax free income if worth more than an equivalent w-2 income, perhaps enough to cover maintenance and repairs


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

oldfart said:


> Taxes...


I have a feeling that @ThrowInTheTowel is referring to something else.


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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> I have a feeling that TITT is referring to something else.


Does Uber pay you for each post? If so this thread is never going to die. Hold tight while I look for my shovel. It's time to bury this in the archives my friend.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

ThrowInTheTowel said:


> Does Uber pay you for each post? If so this thread is never going to die. Hold tight while I look for my shovel. It's time to bury this in the archives my friend.


A user who can't think of answers to very reasonable and logical questions has a vested interest in the thread revealing their speechlessness vanishing from sight so that they can maintain a veneer of credibility.


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## ThrowInTheTowel (Apr 10, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> A user who can't think of answers to very reasonable and logical questions has a vested interest in the thread revealing their speechlessness vanishing from sight so that they can maintain a veneer of credibility.


Instead of driving for Uber you should be a resume writer for your local career center. Very impressive vocabulary my friend. Pretty fancy spancy with your words. 👍


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> 😄
> 
> What if they're just driving around aimlessly while 42 offers per hour go ignored and zero trips completed? How much is that worth to you?


You probably arent going to get a coherent
resolution with someone so convinced there
is a conspiracy and it hopping mad already
They are probably in a market that sucks
Or trying to make a living delivering food 😉


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