# Uber will now charge you extra if your driver has to travel longer to reach you



## Mikek999

Uber is adding a bunch of new fees to sweeten the pot for drivers who may be reluctant to wait for slow passengers, drive longer distances for more out-of-the-way pickups, or get hit with trip cancellations at the last minute. That means some trips may become a little more expensive for passengers - especially those who live far away or take a little longer than usual to get in the car.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/24/16533940/uber-long-pickups-late-cancellations-driver-earnings


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## Jcposeidon

Lyft needs to also or riders will just go to lyft and lyft drivers will only drive uber


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## WaveRunner1

This effects a small number of drivers in my area. Uber tries to scrape as little as possible and pass it off as substantial improvement.


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## Alison Chains

This is real news in a small market with few, clustered, compact hotspots. I can guarantee that the impact on acceptance rates will be significant.

It's damn good news for all but the cheapskate riders, too. I can see how many people on the fringes are not being served during peak but non-surge hours due to distance.


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## uberdriverfornow

theres nothing definitive in this on how its going to be calculated and it doesnt even kick in until after 10 minutes which is a joke

most riders will probably just keep canceling to try to get someone closer and since theres no penalty for continuously canceling this is just more talk and little action on ubers part


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## Alison Chains

You could also be right. Let's field test it. My prediction for my market is bullish.


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## Mars Troll Number 4

I'm shocked uber is doing this. This is great news...

If uber can turn a profit on this i don't see why they wouldn't keep it.

And in my opinion it WILL improve service..


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## Mista T

I am cautiously optimistic. In my market this could be as big an announcement as in app Tipping. Wait times are often over 2 minutes, very frustrating. And pickup times are almost always 4-8 minutes, anything longer gets ignored by many full timers.

Hoping the details are good, not just more Uber screwing us with greed.


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## heynow321

You guys must be new drivers ...


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## MHR

This will possibly, if done well, help in my area. I live in TX and pick-ups can be quite lengthy once you get away from the metropolitan areas. 

I have become very selective about how far I will go for a pick-up (thanks to you guys) so this MIGHT just help both driver and pax.


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## JimKE

This is very similar to the "Long Trip" notification. Interesting, and potentially beneficial, idea -- but *the devil is in the details*.

Long trip could have been good, and beneficial to Uber, pax, and drivers, but Uber messed it up.

Pool pickup fees for additional riders are another good idea -- but in our market, Uber pays 50 cents. That's a pitiful sum, which is disrespectful and insulting to Miami drivers.

We'll see what the real world looks like with "Long Pickups" and "Last Minute Cancellations."

With the recent destination filter fiasco, "180 Days of Change" is starting to look like "180 days of Daydreams."


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## Philbert

So it looks like this thing kicks in after 8-11 minutes depending on your market. I guess this is cool for rural drivers, but it's basically a pointless feature for city drivers (the backbone of Uber's business) And if it's 15 mins away your only being paid for the last 4 minutes, your still starting off your trip in the red. 20 miles away could cost you $3 in gas while Uber gives you a buck back.

Would have been nice if they simply added pickup miles/min to every ride regardless of time/distance. But I could see drivers exploiting it and driving slow or long routes.


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## touberornottouber

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> I'm shocked uber is doing this. This is great news...
> 
> If uber can turn a profit on this i don't see why they wouldn't keep it.
> 
> And in my opinion it WILL improve service..


I'm shocked as well. I see some problems with it still though. For instance ratings. Taking long pickups is still risky because many ignorant passengers will blame the driver. It will be worse if they are charged more too. "I made the same trip yesterday but paid $3 less, so I'm giving him 1*!!!"


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## Mars Troll Number 4

touberornottouber said:


> I'm shocked as well. I see some problems with it still though. For instance ratings. Taking long pickups is still risky because many ignorant passengers will blame the driver. It will be worse if they are charged more too. "I made the same trip yesterday but paid $3 less, so I'm giving him 1*!!!"


What else is new?


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## ginseng41

This will be amazing in my area. We have two price zones which leave the two biggest neighborhoods out of the higher price one and they're usually 8+ minutes when I ignore the requests out. I might be tempted to pick them up if they're surging. Also will be great on game weekends when so many people are in hotels further than 10 minutes away and traffic is so bad that it can take 10 minutes to go a mile


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## ShinyAndChrome

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> I'm shocked uber is doing this. This is great news...
> 
> If uber can turn a profit on this i don't see why they wouldn't keep it.
> 
> And in my opinion it WILL improve service..


Agree. I've been *****ing about this for a long time, and there's nothing unique about that; lots of people have. This is, by far, the best 180 days change Uber has mentioned. let's see how it pans out and if they don't lower our rates elsewhere to make up. But, I've said uber does nothing without benefiting them first and foremost. I think this will benefit them--but also us. That link in the first post says it's a gamble doing long trips. Not so! It's no gamble because I never accept them. If uber is going to start charging more for long pick ups of course I'd be perfectly happy to drive 20 minutes if, say, they start charging after 7 min or so.


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## heynow321

You would seriously drive 20 minutes for what? An extra $2.40? Do you think those pathetic stool pick ups are worth it ?


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## ShinyAndChrome

heynow321 said:


> You would seriously drive 20 minutes for what? An extra $2.40? Do you think those pathetic stool pick ups are worth it ?


I read their policy, once instituted, to indicate that the pickup miles (after the first minutes of dead-miles) will be at the regular rate. If so, a mile without a pax is better than one with because you can crank disco, 50's pop whatever floats your boat.


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## ginseng41

And then they cancel once you're there and you get $5 for that 20 minute drive


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## heynow321

It's still foolish to pick up anyone over 7 minutes away regardless of the pennies they dangle in front of you


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## autofill

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> I'm shocked uber is doing this. This is great news...
> 
> If uber can turn a profit on this i don't see why they wouldn't keep it.
> 
> And in my opinion it WILL improve service..


This longer ETA's pickup payment was tested out on some Orlando drivers November last year. The payouts were so minor that it wasn't worth my time. Here were the details:

For any trip you accept with an ETA that displays 10 minutes or more, we'll add $2 to your base fare.
Plus, for trips with ETAs displaying 11 minutes or higher, you'll earn an additional $0.20 per minute.
This program is available only to the recipient of this email for a limited time within Tampa Bay, Orlando, and Little Rock service areas for completed trips or rider canceled trips.
So for a 12 minutes pickup, you get $1.80 after Uber's cut.


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## d0n

So, charge 8 dollars "extra pick up mileage fee", take 4 and give the driver 4?

It's like I came from the future or something.


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## ginseng41

I think this might actually discourage people from requesting rides if they're too far away. $10 extra for your minimum fare trip...um nah I'll just walk


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## Uberyouber

Well having 6 Destination Filters lasted 7 days. I give this three days...


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## Mista T

ginseng41 said:


> I think this might actually discourage people from requesting rides if they're too far away. $10 extra for your minimum fare trip...um nah I'll just walk


"America's obesity crisis solved by Uber raising rates"


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## SurgeWarrior

Mikek999 said:


> Uber is adding a bunch of new fees to sweeten the pot for drivers who may be reluctant to wait for slow passengers, drive longer distances for more out-of-the-way pickups, or get hit with trip cancellations at the last minute. That means some trips may become a little more expensive for passengers - especially those who live far away or take a little longer than usual to get in the car.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/24/16533940/uber-long-pickups-late-cancellations-driver-earnings


I have never seen a company go out of its way to avoid the only solution to much of their workforce issues. They will redesign the app 50 times and create all kinds of driver happiness campaigns / schemes but simply refuse to return their rates to the pre winter thaw bs cuts. They are soo dug in with their heels about rates, it makes me wonder how they will survive if investor money stops flowing in.


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## d0n

SurgeWarrior said:


> I have never seen a company go out of its way to avoid the only solution to much of their workforce issues. They will redesign the app 50 times and create all kinds of driver happiness campaigns / schemes but simply refuse to return their rates to the pre winter thaw bs cuts. They are soo dug in with their heels about rates, it makes me wonder how they will survive if investor money stops flowing in.


I heard they just found new suckers in Japan.

I still cannot believe such poor business investments made by Japanese banks, it's like they never learned anything back in the 90's.


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## Hhggh

Uber knows they over estimate pick up times. This resulted in me getting 40% of a long pickup fare. Just another way for them to increase rates without increasing driver pay. The lady didn't even notice the extra charges for the long pickup.


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## james725

Yeh this makes no sense and is worthless to drivers, the only good thing i see is getting people used to it so in the future they charge more for drivers coming to them and have fees for the pos pax that cancel


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## sthriftybroke

I'm pretty excited about it. Most pickups around me are 10-15 min if I'm south of the city (which I usually am, as that's where I live.) I have to take them if I want any trips, so being paid even a tiny bit extra is a bonus.


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## Uberrebu

Alison Chains said:


> This is real news in a small market with few, clustered, compact hotspots. I can guarantee that the impact on acceptance rates will be significant.
> 
> It's damn good news for all but the cheapskate riders, too. I can see how many people on the fringes are not being served during peak but non-surge hours due to distance.


Check this out! Last week I started day at the SJO queue. After waiting for about 15 minutes, I got a ping and it was a pool. The airport was surging at 2.4
x and I thought even a 5 mile pool ride would still make me about $15. I got to the pick up point and no one was there. I called the rider and she asked me to pick her up at the baggage claim by Jet Blue. I explained to her the SJO pick up rules and told her I would wait 3 mintues for her at stop #9 if the traffic control did come around. Otherwise I would go around the airport. 
So 3 minutes passed and through my rearview mirror, I saw her walking toward my van and behind her was her boyfriend dragging to pieces of luggage (22" size) and a backpack.
I got out of my car and asked her if she had two passengers and the luggage. She said " what is wrong, I had no problem in the past". These cheapskates are so damn cheap that they tried to cheat their way out of paying for a Uber X ride. I declined the service even at 2.4x. I called Uber to confirm if that is within the rider policy. This is what I got from Uber, Pool rider quest does allow 2 people and each allows a small luggage. That totally blew my mind! Uber must think that the drivers are stupid! Every driver I'd talked to hates the pool, especially at the airport. You waited 20-30 min in the queue and you pick up a pool going down the road 5 miles in morning traffic. You'd be lucky to make $10 for that hour!. Hate to say this. I am not turning my new 38k mini van into a community pool bus


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## SurgeWarrior

Sorry but I am not deviating from my rules of 8...

Less than 8 minutes away and a minimum pax rating of 4.8! Uber can suck it!


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## Uberrebu

Well, than you probably don't do have a lot of business with your rules.

So I take it that you don't do pools. But I still want to ask you this question.

Would you accept a request for pool coming from 9 miles away in heavy morning traffic in San Jose which may be a ride doing down the road for 305 miles? More an more often, I am getting these far request and I found out why. The drivers are declining these pool in his area so he couldn't get a driver to pick him up. So it eventually came to me 9 miles away. I'd a fool if I spent 20 minutes through the city traffic to pick him up.


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## Merc7186

I'm sticking with my current scheme...

10 Minutes on X
15 Minutes on XL

(We're still in a new market....)

...but I need to institute a pax minimum rating now. Been getting too many 4s from ghetto trash, even though they gladly take my car charger, make radio station requests....


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## BornToBeGuilty

Jcposeidon said:


> Lyft needs to also or riders will just go to lyft and lyft drivers will only drive uber


That's a win win scenario for us drivers. Less drivers on lyft means higher rates. So either way we make more 



ginseng41 said:


> And then they cancel once you're there and you get $5 for that 20 minute drive


I thought I had read somewhere along the email that the cancel fee would be higher the longer the time in order to help with last minute cancels.



ginseng41 said:


> I think this might actually discourage people from requesting rides if they're too far away. $10 extra for your minimum fare trip...um nah I'll just walk


I wish this was the case. Hopefully they will learn to walk the 2 blocks they can easily do and reduce the amount of ridiculous pings from far areas. I am sure we all took one or two of these pings in our early uber days. Maybe it will help eliminate some of the competition as well when the amount of trips goes down...nah that's hoping for too much already.

Let's just cheers for the 2 weeks of "higher earnings" before they retract their changes and say "we are working on improving the user experience. To help restore the publics favor you the driver will now pay the rider for their cancellation fee. You must send them an apology letter for not being able to pick them up before they decided to cancel. Thank you for being a great driver we appreciate all that you do!"

I still like how they lowered the rates to "compete" and then they incorporate upfront pricing.... Still trying to figure out who they are trying to compete with.


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## TNCMinWage

heynow321 said:


> You would seriously drive 20 minutes for what? An extra $2.40? Do you think those pathetic stool pick ups are worth it ?


What math are you running? 20 minutes is about 10 miles. So you get paid for about 6 miles ($4.80 mileage plus 11 mins $1.65 = $6.45) Not $2.40. In my remote suburbs this is a step in the right direction. It still sucks, but a step in the right direction in acknowledging that LP's were a money loser.



heynow321 said:


> It's still foolish to pick up anyone over 7 minutes away regardless of the pennies they dangle in front of you


Disagreed. You must not drive in the suburbs. You wouldn't drive 7 mins to get a ride that is paying you 25 miles?


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## heynow321

Nope I start in the suburbs but I know where to hangout for long rides. I don't blindly accept everything


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## autofill

sthriftybroke said:


> I'm pretty excited about it. Most pickups around me are 10-15 min if I'm south of the city (which I usually am, as that's where I live.) I have to take them if I want any trips, so being paid even a tiny bit extra is a bonus.


If currently 10-15 min pickups are the norm in your area then I'm willing to bet Uber will only pay you if your pickups is longer than 20 minutes. There is a "long pickup threshold" and it's determined by market.


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## Cableguynoe

uberdriverfornow said:


> most riders will probably just keep canceling to try to get someone closer and since theres no penalty for continuously canceling this is just more talk and little action on ubers part


After 10 cancels they get timed out for 24 hours. 
Granted they'll probably get the ride they want before 10 rides, or if there's 2 people it's 20 rides. But eventually they'll get cut off.



Mista T said:


> I am cautiously optimistic. In my market this could be as big an announcement as in app Tipping. Wait times are often over 2 minutes, very frustrating. And pickup times are almost always 4-8 minutes, anything longer gets ignored by many full timers.
> 
> Hoping the details are good, not just more Uber screwing us with greed.


I was super happy about the extra destination filters. Worked great for me those days I had them. 
We know how that went...



touberornottouber said:


> . "I made the same trip yesterday but paid $3 less, so I'm giving him 1*!!!"


Going to be interesting. 
Driver close by, minimum fare. No driver in the area, double the price.

Pax that use Uber regularly will definitely notice.



Mista T said:


> "America's obesity crisis solved by Uber raising rates"


Can't hurt



Uberrebu said:


> Check this out! Last week I started day at the SJO queue. After waiting for about 15 minutes, I got a ping and it was a pool. The airport was surging at 2.4
> x and I thought even a 5 mile pool ride would still make me about $15. I got to the pick up point and no one was there. I called the rider and she asked me to pick her up at the baggage claim by Jet Blue. I explained to her the SJO pick up rules and told her I would wait 3 mintues for her at stop #9 if the traffic control did come around. Otherwise I would go around the airport.
> So 3 minutes passed and through my rearview mirror, I saw her walking toward my van and behind her was her boyfriend dragging to pieces of luggage (22" size) and a backpack.
> I got out of my car and asked her if she had two passengers and the luggage. She said " what is wrong, I had no problem in the past". These cheapskates are so damn cheap that they tried to cheat their way out of paying for a Uber X ride. I declined the service even at 2.4x. I called Uber to confirm if that is within the rider policy. This is what I got from Uber, Pool rider quest does allow 2 people and each allows a small luggage. That totally blew my mind! Uber must think that the drivers are stupid! Every driver I'd talked to hates the pool, especially at the airport. You waited 20-30 min in the queue and you pick up a pool going down the road 5 miles in morning traffic. You'd be lucky to make $10 for that hour!. Hate to say this. I am not turning my new 38k mini van into a community pool bus


Kind of off subject, but a pool ride at 2.4x is better than an x ride. Especially an x ride with 4 pax. 
You missed out buddy.



Merc7186 said:


> I'm sticking with my current scheme...
> 
> 10 Minutes on X
> 15 Minutes on XL


I do XL also and 15 minutes is 6 minutes too long.


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## sledrunner

Being in a rural market with small cities spaced all around this actually works for me. I often have no choice but to drive 10-20 mins to pick someone up otherwise I wont have any other calls.


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## Uber Crack

Might as well just take it and be grateful 
~ *Eeyore voice*
It's going to be like the 10¢ wait time, not really noticeable.


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## wk1102

JimKE said:


> That's a pitiful sum, which is disrespectful and insulting to Miami drivers.


I'm almost amazed that they had the nerve to present this like it was something beneficial to us, almost. 50 cents... ugh



Uber Crack said:


> Might as well just take it and be grateful
> ~ *Eeyore voice*
> It's going to be like the 10¢ wait time, not really noticeable.


I read somewhere wait time is increasing to 25/min.


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## Super (Nascar) Uberess

Always dancing around the issue drivers want the most......increased mileage rates, especially in NJ. Uber is just throwing crumbs at us hoping we won't notice that they keep ignoring our primary need for a better mileage rate.....the rest is just smoke and mirrors!


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## whiskeyboat

They tossed us a bone. It's a small one but every now and then it will help dampen the frustration of a long drive to a short trip.
They ought to base it on a ratio of how far you drove to the pickup vs. how much the trip paid.
But anyway, it's something. In fact I got .03 from it on a trip this morning.


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## Super (Nascar) Uberess

whiskeyboat said:


> They tossed us a bone. It's a small one but every now and then it will help dampen the frustration of a long drive to a short trip.
> They ought to base it on a ratio of how far you drove to the pickup vs. how much the trip paid.
> But anyway, it's something. In fact I got .03 from it on a trip this morning.


You are kidding.....right???!!!


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## uberdriverfornow

Cableguynoe said:


> After 10 cancels they get timed out for 24 hours


Are you seriously saying this with a straight face ? 10 cancels is fine to you ?


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## Uberrebu

Cableguynoe said:


> After 10 cancels they get timed out for 24 hours.
> Granted they'll probably get the ride they want before 10 rides, or if there's 2 people it's 20 rides. But eventually they'll get cut off.
> 
> I was super happy about the extra destination filters. Worked great for me those days I had them.
> We know how that went...
> 
> Going to be interesting.
> Driver close by, minimum fare. No driver in the area, double the price.
> 
> Pax that use Uber regularly will definitely notice.
> 
> Can't hurt
> 
> Kind of off subject, but a pool ride at 2.4x is better than an x ride. Especially an x ride with 4 pax.
> You missed out buddy.
> 
> I do XL also and 15 minutes is 6 minutes too long.


I know 2.4x is better than X, but I was disgusted by the fact that these people is so cheap. I declined them as my way of letting them know.
In San Jose area between 7-9 am, 50% of the pings are pools. If I only select XL, I probably won't get a ping for 2 hours. My goal is to bring home $80
in a 8-12 am window. If I catch a 2.5 times at he airport for 10 mile ride, I should be able to achieve my daily target.


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## EpicSwoleness

d0n said:


> I heard they just found new suckers in Japan.
> 
> I still cannot believe such poor business investments made by Japanese banks, it's like they never learned anything back in the 90's.


They are adept at waking sleeping giants and filling them with a terrible resolve.


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## Bpr2

Hopefully pax won’t see the fee as an included tip


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## whiskeyboat

Super (Nascar) Uberess said:


> You are kidding.....right???!!!


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## mrpjfresh

I agree that it is a step in the right direction especially in rural markets. However, I would have preferred a guarenteed minimum fare instead, reflective of the time and mileage to get to them. Something the driver knows off the bat instead of some conditional rate. The fare adjustment possibilities also exist with lost drivers overcharging riders and lying pax as well. If someone _really_ needs a ride, agree upfront to pay $X to a driver to come get them and the driver can then make a clear choice.

These people in far away locations should have to pay more to get picked up; it is just common sense. It's like surge. If you want the convenience of an immediate ride during high demand, you pay more. The fact these far-away minimum fare rides are _still_ being dispatched knowing they are money losers (for drivers) is obscene really.


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## Uber Crack

mrpjfresh said:


> I agree that it is a step in the right direction especially in rural markets. However, I would have preferred a guarenteed minimum fare instead, reflective of the time and mileage to get to them. Something the driver knows off the bat instead of some conditional rate. The fare adjustment possibilities also exist with lost drivers overcharging riders and lying pax as well. If someone _really_ needs a ride, agree upfront to pay $X to a driver to come get them and the driver can then make a clear choice.
> 
> These people in far away locations should have to pay more to get picked up; it is just common sense. It's like surge. If you want the convenience of an immediate ride during high demand, you pay more. The fact these far-away minimum fare rides are _still_ being dispatched knowing they are money losers (for drivers) is obscene really.


You mean so we don't have this?...


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## Cableguynoe

uberdriverfornow said:


> Are you seriously saying this with a straight face ? 10 cancels is fine to you ?


Never said 10 cancels is fine. More of just an FYI. They will eventually get timed out. 
Most dont know this because it's pretty ridiculous to do it 10 times.



Uberrebu said:


> In San Jose area between 7-9 am, 50% of the pings are pools.


Yeah I'll drive SJ once in a while. I'd say more like 75% are pool requests.
Not bad if there's a good quest. Otherwise sucks balls.



Uber Crack said:


> You mean so we don't have this?...


You scored a surge ride!!!! WOOHOO!!!!


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## TNCMinWage

heynow321 said:


> Nope I start in the suburbs but I know where to hangout for long rides. I don't blindly accept everything


I don't blindly accept any ride either.



Uber Crack said:


> You mean so we don't have this?...


Yuck!


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## Ezridax

uberdriverfornow said:


> theres nothing definitive in this on how its going to be calculated and it doesnt even kick in until after 10 minutes which is a joke
> 
> most riders will probably just keep canceling to try to get someone closer and since theres no penalty for continuously canceling this is just more talk and little action on ubers part


Not necessarily. People who live out a little further know they have to wait a little longer.


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## Alison Chains

Uberrebu said:


> I got out of my car and asked her if she had two passengers and the luggage. She said " what is wrong, I had no problem in the past". These cheapskates are so damn cheap that they tried to cheat their way out of paying for a Uber X ride. I declined the service even at 2.4x. I called Uber to confirm if that is within the rider policy. This is what I got from Uber, Pool rider quest does allow 2 people and each allows a small luggage. That totally blew my mind! Uber must think that the drivers are stupid! Every driver I'd talked to hates the pool, especially at the airport. You waited 20-30 min in the queue and you pick up a pool going down the road 5 miles in morning traffic. You'd be lucky to make $10 for that hour!. Hate to say this. I am not turning my new 38k mini van into a community pool bus


You have a different kind of cheapskate. My metro is a tenth the size of SJO and in the middle of a giant cornfield with a compact urban/college center. The nearest commercial airport is a Long Trip. I have no Pool and might never see it because it's impractical with this geography. In my market being able to take X pings farther from downtown is Big News.


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## I_Like_Spam

Mikek999 said:


> Uber is adding a bunch of new fees to sweeten the pot for drivers who may be reluctant to wait for slow passengers, drive longer distances for more out-of-the-way pickups, or get hit with trip cancellations at the last minute. That means some trips may become a little more expensive for passengers - especially those who live far away or take a little longer than usual to get in the car.


People in the sticks found it very hard to get a cab back in the day- for much the same reason.

Passengers out in those areas just waited until someone got a trip from the central area out to their neck of the woods. If the dispatcher got a driver to take the trip, the driver was taken care of, and was given other trips to bring him back to civilization- if it was at all possible.


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## heynow321

d0n said:


> I heard they just found new suckers in Japan.
> 
> I still cannot believe such poor business investments made by Japanese banks, it's like they never learned anything back in the 90's.


 I was thinking the exact same thing . The Japanese are so gullible. This might be a sign that we're approaching the top of the bubble again


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## SurgeWarrior

Uberrebu said:


> Well, than you probably don't do have a lot of business with your rules.
> 
> So I take it that you don't do pools. But I still want to ask you this question.
> 
> Would you accept a request for pool coming from 9 miles away in heavy morning traffic in San Jose which may be a ride doing down the road for 305 miles? More an more often, I am getting these far request and I found out why. The drivers are declining these pool in his area so he couldn't get a driver to pick him up. So it eventually came to me 9 miles away. I'd a fool if I spent 20 minutes through the city traffic to pick him up.


I have a 44% acceptance which is high for me. If someone cant maintain a 4.8 then I dont want them in my car! I am not judging anyone who wants to pick them up..it just wont be me.


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## jfinks

heynow321 said:


> It's still foolish to pick up anyone over 7 minutes away regardless of the pennies they dangle in front of you


I am more about miles away not so much time. I like to keep it around 2-3 miles max, 3 miles can go over 7-8 minutes pretty easily. So I like to go mainly by distance. But location and Surge matters also. I'll go further for a good surge.


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## I_Like_Spam

Mikek999 said:


> Uber is adding a bunch of new fees to sweeten the pot for drivers who may be reluctant to wait for slow passengers, drive longer distances for more out-of-the-way pickups, or get hit with trip cancellations at the last minute. That means some trips may become a little more expensive for passengers - especially those who live far away or take a little longer than usual to get in the car.


The problem with this is that the passenger really doesn't know how close the closest Uber vehicle is. They are just taking Uber's word for it,and they might think they are being taken advantage of.

Even if someone is out in the boonies, there is always a chance they'll be an uber around the corner.


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## jfinks

I_Like_Spam said:


> The problem with this is that the passenger really doesn't know how close the closest Uber vehicle is. They are just taking Uber's word for it,and they might think they are being taken advantage of.
> 
> Even if someone is out in the boonies, there is always a chance they'll be an uber around the corner.


It depends on how far in the sticks the boonies are.


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## Mido toyota

Uber Crack said:


> You mean so we don't have this?...


How can you servive with this shit, how do you get motivated to keep working like that, are you satisfied with what you are doing, you. Know you can earn more business flipping burgers right?, by the way you are the reason why uber will never raise their rates


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## Bpr2

Was the are you kidding because you took pool, or the .03 ?


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## I_Like_Spam

Mido toyota said:


> Know you can earn more business flipping burgers right?,


Its the Christmas season right around the corner. You can make the same as holiday help at Macy's, and not put any miles on your ride.


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## Uber Crack

Mido toyota said:


> How can you servive with this shit, how do you get motivated to keep working like that, are you satisfied with what you are doing, you. Know you can earn more business flipping burgers right?, by the way you are the reason why uber will never raise their rates


Thank you for your valuable input. 
Do you have a crystal ball and can see how long your rides will be? If so please share it with me.


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## I_Like_Spam

Uber Crack said:


> Do you have a crystal ball and can see how long your rides will be? If so please share it with me.


If you have a phone, you can ring up the passengers, ask them where they are going.

Most people are unlikely to lie.


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## Uber Crack

I_Like_Spam said:


> If you have a phone, you can ring up the passengers, ask them where they are going.
> 
> Most people are unlikely to lie.


So I call them up and ask where they're going and then what? They tell me some place and I check a map and say, "Eh that's too short bro, sorry I'm not gonna come." Are you for real? Every single ping I get? Do you do that? What % do you say no to? What's the fewest miles you'll agree to take someone?


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## RamzFanz

heynow321 said:


> You would seriously drive 20 minutes for what? An extra $2.40? Do you think those pathetic stool pick ups are worth it ?


Math is not your strength.


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## Super (Nascar) Uberess

Bpr2 said:


> Was the are you kidding because you took pool, or the .03 ?


The poor pathetic fact that the bonus was $0.03 and we're being sold this bag of s*** as if there was some real monetary increase in this for us. Meanwhile thanks to that MF poor excuse for a human being Trump my health insurance premium has now gone up $200 a month. How the F am I going be able to afford health insurance with these ridiculous Uber rates???!!!


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## Lando74

This doesn't apply to XL or surge fares - so the cars that use the most gas don't get paid extra for the longer pickup. That's a stupid oversight. This is just a way to get the bottom feeders to jump on those long requests.


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## heynow321

Lando74 said:


> This doesn't apply to XL or surge fares - so the cars that use the most gas don't get paid extra for the longer pickup. That's a stupid oversight. This is just a way to get the bottom feeders to jump on those long requests.


Exactly. They're trying to exploit moron new drivers


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## EpicSwoleness

Uber Crack said:


> You mean so we don't have this?...


I hope you've hired a CPA to help you manage that windfall.


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## supernaut_32273

Where I live, some people need to be picked up about 15 mins away. One area I often get requests from, has a high degree of passenger no shows. The ones that do show, often can walk to their locations by the time I get there. So this might help. Not going to do cartwheels just yet.


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## I_Like_Spam

supernaut_32273 said:


> Where I live, some people need to be picked up about 15 mins away. .


I'm sure that's true, but why does it have to be you? If its a money losing proposition, let someone who is right on top of the trip take it


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## Uberdecatur

Mikek999 said:


> Uber is adding a bunch of new fees to sweeten the pot for drivers who may be reluctant to wait for slow passengers, drive longer distances for more out-of-the-way pickups, or get hit with trip cancellations at the last minute. That means some trips may become a little more expensive for passengers - especially those who live far away or take a little longer than usual to get in the car.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/24/16533940/uber-long-pickups-late-cancellations-driver-earnings


What about Uber pool? Going to pick up someone and only getting 1.50 is horrible.


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## I_Like_Spam

Uberdecatur said:


> What about Uber pool? Going to pick up someone and only getting 1.50 is horrible.


If people are willing to do it for $1.50, why should Uber pay any more? Its cool and with-it to be an Uber partner, at least for a season.

Uber is just taking advantage of that.

Sooner or later, the coolness factor will wear out, and the price of transportation will increase. At that point in time, most of the dollar fifty passengers will start taking the bus or walking.


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## moJohoJo

Mikek999 said:


> Uber is adding a bunch of new fees to sweeten the pot for drivers who may be reluctant to wait for slow passengers, drive longer distances for more out-of-the-way pickups, or get hit with trip cancellations at the last minute. That means some trips may become a little more expensive for passengers - especially those who live far away or take a little longer than usual to get in the car.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/24/16533940/uber-long-pickups-late-cancellations-driver-earnings


.86 cents for three minutes . After deductions and commissions are paid that just pays for your gas .


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## heynow321

I_Like_Spam said:


> If people are willing to do it for $1.50, why should Uber pay any more? Its cool and with-it to be an Uber partner, at least for a season.
> 
> Uber is just taking advantage of that.
> 
> Sooner or later, the coolness factor will wear out, and the price of transportation will increase. At that point in time, most of the dollar fifty passengers will start taking the bus or walking.


Lol who in their right mind thinks it's "cool" to be a boober driver?


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## I_Like_Spam

heynow321 said:


> Lol who in their right mind thinks it's "cool" to be a boober driver?


I didn't say they were in their right mind,but a lot of people heard and believed the "putting on the side hustle" line of thought.


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## heynow321

I_Like_Spam said:


> I didn't say they were in their right mind,but a lot of people heard and believed the "putting on the side hustle" line of thought.


Ugh I temporarily forgot how stupid people are. Good point


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## supernaut_32273

I_Like_Spam said:


> I'm sure that's true, but why does it have to be you? If its a money losing proposition, let someone who is right on top of the trip take it


Sometimes I don't even bother. But Uber availability is somewhat odd here. They pile up through the week, and practically disappear on weekends. Some days, its just me and another driver. So, its really just giving someone the benefit of a doubt.


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## UberXking

ShinyAndChrome said:


> I read their policy, once instituted, to indicate that the pickup miles (after the first minutes of dead-miles) will be at the regular rate. If so, a mile without a pax is better than one with because you can crank disco, 50's pop whatever floats your boat.


Stay in your garage and rock out!


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## UberXking

Uber Crack said:


> So I call them up and ask where they're going and then what? They tell me some place and I check a map and say, "Eh that's too short bro, sorry I'm not gonna come." Are you for real? Every single ping I get? Do you do that? What % do you say no to? What's the fewest miles you'll agree to take someone?



You need to think. If that's too difficult do the opposite of what you're told and you'll be better off. There are many considerations other than distance. When maximizing your profits. The fact that anyone is willing to drive on their dime to pick up a pax is questionable. If the request is far away accept and since your the closest car most customers will pay you to pick them up. It's your car use your brain. If they were ordering food they would pay to have it delivered. Taxi's charge as much as 4x what we charge and seldom show up if requested. They start most of their trips where hailed. Independent contractors that get the riders approval should start the trip where agreed This is a ride share. 
Check out the guarantee posted above. It's not the end of the world if you miss a request. I would have to accept 64 in a row to get over 80% acceptance rate. That's not going to happen. And it's still too low to qualify My average trip has been over $30 since 2014 I've made some additional Uber trips this week . So blew away this guaranlosser


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## Autofahrer

heynow321 said:


> It's still foolish to pick up anyone over 7 minutes away regardless of the pennies they dangle in front of you


I have driven some 10 and 16 minute pickups with good fares, a tip, 5 stars too. So depends on my mood and what time of day for me.
I drive 2-4 hours, if on the way home and near the house I'm not taking a 18 minute pickup.


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## at-007smartLP

this is only for the people still dumb enough to accept x pings farther than 7+ minutes, who haven't opted out of pool, & actually still drive for less than $1.50 a mile.

its by design for the 96% who will fail. The 4% need not worry will continue to screen all rides and follow the code of do the opposite of Everything uber suggests as its clear uber and every rider going less than 10 miles is an enemy trying to steal from you and coerce free labor, they made it this way evolve adapt or go extinct.


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## wb6vpm

unfortunately, those of us in smaller (or more sparsely populated) areas don't have as much choice of being picky on what we take.


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## Mista T

UberXking said:


> View attachment 170652
> 
> 
> You need to think. If that's too difficult do the opposite of what you're told and you'll be better off. There are many considerations other than distance. When maximizing your profits. The fact that anyone is willing to drive on their dime to pick up a pax is questionable. If the request is far away accept and since your the closest car most customers will pay you to pick them up. It's your car use your brain. If they were ordering food they would pay to have it delivered. Taxi's charge as much as 4x what we charge and seldom show up if requested. They start most of their trips where hailed. Independent contractors that get the riders approval should start the trip where agreed This is a ride share.
> Check out the guarantee posted above. It's not the end of the world if you miss a request. I would have to accept 64 in a row to get over 80% acceptance rate. That's not going to happen. And it's still too low to qualify My average trip has been over $30 since 2014 I've made some additional Uber trips this week . So blew away this guaranlosser
> View attachment 170652


Correction on your acceptance rate math: if you accept 9 and ignore 1 that's 90%. If you need 40 rides, 4 ignores is okay.


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## at-007smartLP

wb6vpm said:


> unfortunately, those of us in smaller (or more sparsely populated) areas don't have as much choice of being picky on what we take.


1st cuts i went xl only till they brought rematch to airport now i ignore all x requests that arent rematch at the airport. you can find other work if you choose to still drive in a market at less than $1.50 a mile & keep falling for ubers scams thats on you. if drivers keep driving at mathmatically impossible rates they're not going to raise them. they respect data not humans. if yoy dont screen by design youre set up to fail.


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## melusine3

Mikek999 said:


> Uber is adding a bunch of new fees to sweeten the pot for drivers who may be reluctant to wait for slow passengers, drive longer distances for more out-of-the-way pickups, or get hit with trip cancellations at the last minute. That means some trips may become a little more expensive for passengers - especially those who live far away or take a little longer than usual to get in the car.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/24/16533940/uber-long-pickups-late-cancellations-driver-earnings


As they should, at a minimum. They should do this for any ride over two miles, since economically we are paying .54 cents per mile to pick them up in the first place, anything over 2 miles should be paid by the passenger. It should also apply to deadhead drives back to cities, since the occasional rides 60 miles out of town result in negative income once expenses are taken into consideration. I explained this to one fellow I was driving an hour out of town and he commiserated with me, but did he tip me for going out of my way for this long run? NOPE. I don't do those any more and do my best to inform new drivers that these runs may look like a lot of money, but they are losers.



Alison Chains said:


> This is real news in a small market with few, clustered, compact hotspots. I can guarantee that the impact on acceptance rates will be significant.
> 
> It's damn good news for all but the cheapskate riders, too. I can see how many people on the fringes are not being served during peak but non-surge hours due to distance.


Let the cheepos call taxis.


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## Trafficat

Bpr2 said:


> Hopefully pax won't see the fee as an included tip


Not like they tip anyway.


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## JKG

I have limited my Uber pickups to surge rates only and use Lyft as my primary platform just for this very reason. I did a few Uber rides last night for the first time in a couple of weeks. A few of the rides were long pickups 12 to 15 minutes out. I did not receive any long distance fare fees for these rides.


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## Bpr2

JKG said:


> I have limited my Uber pickups to surge rates only and use Lyft as my primary platform just for this very reason. I did a few Uber rides last night for the first time in a couple of weeks. A few of the rides were long pickups 12 to 15 minutes out. I did not receive any long distance fare fees for these rides.


Might not be in your market yet. By end of December all markets should have it.


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## ginseng41

I was wondering when it would come here. I took a scheduled airport trip the other night at 4 am but left the app on as I was coming back to town. Quite excited when I got a request 25 minutes away about 2 miles from home. Looked after the trip and saw no extra fee so I was quite disappointed


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## Bubsie

I_Like_Spam said:


> The problem with this is that the passenger really doesn't know how close the closest Uber vehicle is. They are just taking Uber's word for it,and they might think they are being taken advantage of.
> 
> Even if someone is out in the boonies, there is always a chance they'll be an uber around the corner.


Can't the rider judge how close the nearest car is by the icon of a car or at least the amount of time before pickup? If there's one online around the corner they'll see a pickup of 3 or 4 mins.


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## moJohoJo

Mikek999 said:


> Uber is adding a bunch of new fees to sweeten the pot for drivers who may be reluctant to wait for slow passengers, drive longer distances for more out-of-the-way pickups, or get hit with trip cancellations at the last minute. That means some trips may become a little more expensive for passengers - especially those who live far away or take a little longer than usual to get in the car.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/24/16533940/uber-long-pickups-late-cancellations-driver-earnings


It's called deception . They make it sound good but in reality the " extra " amount your paid is crumbs for driving those extra miles and that barely pays for your gas .


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## GasHealthTimeCosts

Actually if drivers were smart and we know most aren't.

Every driver would not accept trips and these trips would go to drivers who are further and then every driver would make some money for driving to the passenger.

Same idea as if drivers actually logged off and let it surge, but then again, desperation is a stinky cologne.


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## I_Like_Spam

wb6vpm said:


> unfortunately, those of us in smaller (or more sparsely populated) areas don't have as much choice of being picky on what we take.


The problem in sparsely populated areas is that almost everyone has their own car. So the need to ride sharing is a whole lot less.

If you think its worth it to travel long distances for pickups, then that's your judgment to make. I just think there are easier "side hustles" particularly in the exurbs which cab companies abandoned a long time ago.


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## HumbleKid

WaveRunner1 said:


> This effects a small number of drivers in my area. Uber tries to scrape as little as possible and pass it off as substantial improvement.


My sentiments exactly.


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## at-007smartLP

Bubsie said:


> Can't the rider judge how close the nearest car is by the icon of a car or at least the amount of time before pickup? If there's one online around the corner they'll see a pickup of 3 or 4 mins.


bulk of my biz is in 4-5 hours, we can stay online for 4-5 more without violations guess who makes their own ghost car 4+ hours a day giving the impression a car is 3-5 minutes away when its really 7+ oh nose uber cant be trusted so ghost spite cars, uber turned a dangerous job into a game so playas gonna play hundreds of ignored rides per week, a few cancelled on per day after waiting 5 minutes, ignoring all x requets 7+ minutes away, ignoring 4.7ish drivers, 1 starring every non tipper who didnt go farther than 10 miles, unmatching from hundreds play on players they know exactly what theyre doing the new maps are so bad they're dangerous for those who drive around for rides all to hide as much info as possible because drivers are refusing to pick up because duh no one wants to work for free...

every$4-10 ride they trick/coerce me into taking by sending a blank contract, which is about 10% if em still, i make sure costs them hundreds in bad experience i already lost a few bucks whats 1 more giving a 1 star experience for the 1 star price?

all you have to do is learn to screen and ignore any advice or statements from uber doing the opposite usually works best


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## Monkchoi

autofill said:


> This longer ETA's pickup payment was tested out on some Orlando drivers November last year. The payouts were so minor that it wasn't worth my time. Here were the details:
> 
> For any trip you accept with an ETA that displays 10 minutes or more, we'll add $2 to your base fare.
> Plus, for trips with ETAs displaying 11 minutes or higher, you'll earn an additional $0.20 per minute.
> This program is available only to the recipient of this email for a limited time within Tampa Bay, Orlando, and Little Rock service areas for completed trips or rider canceled trips.
> So for a 12 minutes pickup, you get $1.80 after Uber's cut.


It's BS When Uber takes our cut for going the extra miles to pickup a rider. Technically, we don't have a rider in our vehicle so why they're taking our share? What's next? Charging us for every minutes our apps are left online? Absorb the cost you (Uber) greedy POS if you want your riders to have a reliable system

I r


I_Like_Spam said:


> If you have a phone, you can ring up the passengers, ask them where they are going.
> 
> Most people are unlikely to lie.


 I received a "why does it matter where I'm going to?" Reply. Guess he's gotten a lot of those calls.


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## Johnny Driver

Don't be fooled the more the drivers get paid the more uber makes.


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## llort

Mikek999 said:


> Uber is adding a bunch of new fees to sweeten the pot for drivers who may be reluctant to wait for slow passengers, drive longer distances for more out-of-the-way pickups, or get hit with trip cancellations at the last minute. That means some trips may become a little more expensive for passengers - especially those who live far away or take a little longer than usual to get in the car.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/24/16533940/uber-long-pickups-late-cancellations-driver-earnings


Cool, you get .30 cents extra gas money when you use $3 in fuel. That's $6/hr before fuel. ISIS members will love this!


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## JimKE

*Prediction:* The Long Pickup Fee will be the next situation where Uber gives drivers a purported benefit -- *and then backs out of it.*

This is supposed to be implemented nationwide by the end of December 2017. It will not be. It will be just like the 6 Destination Filters fiasco -- except that 6 DFs actually had some value for drivers.


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## Rat

WaveRunner1 said:


> This effects a small number of drivers in my area. Uber tries to scrape as little as possible and pass it off as substantial improvement.


This effects everybody in my area, but I live in the boonies



llort said:


> Cool, you get .30 cents extra gas money when you use $3 in fuel. That's $6/hr before fuel. ISIS members will love this!


You're getting paid for mileage, not just time



Jcposeidon said:


> Lyft needs to also or riders will just go to lyft and lyft drivers will only drive uber


Riders may go to Lyft, but they won't get drivers.



uberdriverfornow said:


> theres nothing definitive in this on how its going to be calculated and it doesnt even kick in until after 10 minutes which is a joke
> 
> most riders will probably just keep canceling to try to get someone closer and since theres no penalty for continuously canceling this is just more talk and little action on ubers part


Theoretically, there are no closer drivers



JimKE said:


> *Prediction:* The Long Pickup Fee will be the next situation where Uber gives drivers a purported benefit -- *and then backs out of it.*
> 
> This is supposed to be implemented nationwide by the end of December 2017. It will not be. It will be just like the 6 Destination Filters fiasco -- except that 6 DFs actually had some value for drivers.


The notice I got said "by December 2017". That would mean the end of November, not the end of December



ginseng41 said:


> This will be amazing in my area. We have two price zones which leave the two biggest neighborhoods out of the higher price one and they're usually 8+ minutes when I ignore the requests out. I might be tempted to pick them up if they're surging. Also will be great on game weekends when so many people are in hotels further than 10 minutes away and traffic is so bad that it can take 10 minutes to go a mile


It took me an hour and a half to go two blocks on a game day



heynow321 said:


> It's still foolish to pick up anyone over 7 minutes away regardless of the pennies they dangle in front of you


I get calls 20 plus minutes away from my home. Driving there I can do 60 MPH and I can do the first 10 minutes at 20 MPH. The first mile I can only do 10 MPH (rough ass road(



autofill said:


> This longer ETA's pickup payment was tested out on some Orlando drivers November last year. The payouts were so minor that it wasn't worth my time. Here were the details:
> 
> For any trip you accept with an ETA that displays 10 minutes or more, we'll add $2 to your base fare.
> Plus, for trips with ETAs displaying 11 minutes or higher, you'll earn an additional $0.20 per minute.
> This program is available only to the recipient of this email for a limited time within Tampa Bay, Orlando, and Little Rock service areas for completed trips or rider canceled trips.
> So for a 12 minutes pickup, you get $1.80 after Uber's cut.


Their email said we get paid for mileage, if it's only time, nobody will accept those calls. Well, maybe rookies



Super (Nascar) Uberess said:


> The poor pathetic fact that the bonus was $0.03 and we're being sold this bag of s*** as if there was some real monetary increase in this for us. Meanwhile thanks to that MF poor excuse for a human being Trump my health insurance premium has now gone up $200 a month. How the F am I going be able to afford health insurance with these ridiculous Uber rates???!!!


Trump hasn't made any changes in healthcare insurance. Your rates would have gone up anyway



I_Like_Spam said:


> I'm sure that's true, but why does it have to be you? If its a money losing proposition, let someone who is right on top of the trip take it


In my area, 20 minutes is "right on top"


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## Les in Jax

What about the riders who live on the fringe and destination is farther out. There is no compensation for dead heading back. I have started passing on over 10 minutes. I would rather see surge for them at fringe. They chose fringe to live in. Why should drivers care if they are under served? Let them Taxi instead.


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## Luber4.9

touberornottouber said:


> I'm shocked as well. I see some problems with it still though. For instance ratings. Taking long pickups is still risky because many ignorant passengers will blame the driver. It will be worse if they are charged more too. "I made the same trip yesterday but paid $3 less, so I'm giving him 1*!!!"


Who cares? They should be re-trained to expect to PAY for long pickups.

The first mistake was giving them artificially cheap rides in the first place. Time to teach the dogs new tricks.


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## Johnny Driver

Luber4.9 said:


> Who cares? They should be re-trained to expect to PAY for long pickups.
> 
> The first mistake was giving them artificially cheap rides in the first place. Time to teach the dogs new tricks.


True! Every pax that talks about Uber states they have very cheap rates. And some have said even if they raised rates a bit they would still consider it a bargain.


----------



## I_Like_Spam

Les in Jax said:


> What about the riders who live on the fringe and destination is farther out. There is no compensation for dead heading back. I have started passing on over 10 minutes. I would rather see surge for them at fringe. They chose fringe to live in. Why should drivers care if they are under served? Let them Taxi instead.


Taxis aren't going to come out and serve them, that's the point. Of course, if the fare doesn't make it worthwhile for any particular driver to make the trip,, they shouldn't take it.

But those folks don't see themselves as "living on the fringe", and they really aren't. Not everyone sees their residence in reference to a major metropolitan area. If someone lives in the far exurbs of JAX or Pittsburgh, they probably never go to the big city ever.


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## UberXking

Mikek999 said:


> Uber is adding a bunch of new fees to sweeten the pot for drivers who may be reluctant to wait for slow passengers, drive longer distances for more out-of-the-way pickups, or get hit with trip cancellations at the last minute. That means some trips may become a little more expensive for passengers - especially those who live far away or take a little longer than usual to get in the car.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/24/16533940/uber-long-pickups-late-cancellations-driver-earnings


Ok team. 1st why do we drive for FREE to pick up pax. Taxi's rarely show up for scheduled pick up. They start earning in most situations immediately when hailed. Lyft and Uber are quick to offer pax free service that drivers pay for. It makes absolutely no sense to drive 4 feet and wait for free. It costs money to get the car on the road = pick up charge.
I think this long pick up charge has been instituted to discourage drivers from realizing that there is great opportunity in accepting long distance pick up requests.
It's very easy to convince the rider to let you start the trip no matter how far away from them you are.
If you received the ping both Lyft and Uber state the requests go to the closest car. You have the info to give pax your arrival time and you can promise the pax that unlike your competition you will drive directly to their location if they agree to let you start the trip now. At our current rates and no surge. If the trip the pax plans on taking is farther than you are away from them it will still be cheaper than a Taxi in every U.S. location except New York.

Remember this is rideshare of course riders love us driving up to their exact location and waiting for free. Drivers are nieve. In certain situations riders will gladly pay. Heck they pay for food delivery. You're delivering and providing a service more valuable than a meal. Makes no business sense to do it faster, better and safer than your competitors for free.
Those of you who drink the Lyft and Uber punch and make 25 - 30 trips a day. If it takes only 2 minutes to drive to a pax Ridiculous right I think we can all agree no way every pick up is only 2 minutes Maybe 1 out of 30. Let's just say all are 2 minutes even though impossible. Now let's say every pax was in your car within 2 minutes. I'm sure you'd agree another impossibility We all hear too often thanks for waiting or I forgot my purse etc but let's say it's a magical day and not only did ever pick up take only two minutes but they were in your car in two minutes and you parked legally with absolutely no time waisted looking for the pick up location addresses were posted in neon on every single building and each location had a open spot for you in front.
How many hours did you work for free if all 30 trips had pick ups that magically were that easy? 
You are right!! 2 hours
Plus the liability of getting a ticket, mugged, wrecking your car etc. 
All independent contractors should call pax and get the ok to start the trip immediately or brag about how your working happily way over two hours for free every single day. In one month that's over a week with no pay and no benefits,


----------

