# Worth a read......



## Phatboy (Feb 9, 2017)

*How Uber Uses Psychological Tricks to Push Its Drivers' Buttons*
The company has undertaken an extraordinary experiment in behavioral science to subtly entice an independent work force to maximize its growth.

By NOAM SCHEIBERand graphics by JON HUANG APRIL 2, 2017

https://nyti.ms/2nPPSNl


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

Good read indeed!

*Faster pickup times mean more idle drivers.*
Change the number of drivers in this ride-share simulation. Faster pickup times for riders require a greater percentage of drivers to be idling unpaid.


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## Lowestformofwit (Sep 2, 2016)

A lengthy article, but well worth reading from start to finish.
Should be *compulsory reading.* (my opinion; definitely not Uber's, though, I'll wager!)


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

You sign on and sign off. By definition you accept the terms every time you sign on. I can not accept that uber are taking advantage when it is clear to me that every driver makes the free choice to sign on. 
When a contractor has free choice to be or not be a contractor and to be on or offline at will, no argument about exploitation really holds much water. That is not to say that uber do not use techniques that are questionable but once again, drivers choose to be part of those techniques or not.


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

Paul Collins said:


> You sign on and sign off. By definition you accept the terms every time you sign on. I can not accept that uber are taking advantage when it is clear to me that every driver makes the free choice to sign on.
> When a contractor has free choice to be or not be a contractor and to be on or offline at will, no argument about exploitation really holds much water. That is not to say that uber do not use techniques that are questionable but once again, drivers choose to be part of those techniques or not.


There's always psychological influencing. Just like the 60mins segment on models and eating disorders. They are verbally told to be a certain size to obtain work, so by your definition Paul Collins these models that develop eating disorders are entirely their own fault? I don't think so


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

Instyle said:


> There's always psychological influencing. Just like the 60mins segment on models and eating disorders. They are verbally told to be a certain size to obtain work, so by your definition Paul Collins these models that develop eating disorders are entirely their own fault? I don't think so


I am not sure if the same can be said for models and eating disorders. I do think that ultimately the model is the one responsible for his or her body however and that the model can not 'blame' society at large for their own disorder. To me it is a bit of a straw man argument.
Drivers are not 'told' to be anything in particular by uber before they are allowed to sign on or off.

Do über use techniques to influence drivers? Yes of course, however the drivers must accept that they 'choose' to be influenced.


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

Paul Collins said:


> I am not sure if the same can be said for models and eating disorders. I do think that ultimately the model is the one responsible for his or her body however and that the model can not 'blame' society at large for their own disorder. To me it is a bit of a straw man argument.
> Drivers are not 'told' to be anything in particular by uber before they are allowed to sign on or off.
> 
> Do über use techniques to influence drivers? Yes of course, however the drivers must accept that they 'choose' to be influenced.


You and I both know Uber tell drivers many things and there is also much expectation from passenger, Uber and other drivers such as yourself.

While the case is not too dissimilar, the psychological pressure is exactly the same.


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## Lowestformofwit (Sep 2, 2016)

Irrespective of what you think, Paul,
repeatedly paying someone less than it may cost them to perform work (i.e. no contingency factor included, or no reasonable profit margin either) is exploitation, in most people's book.
Questions for you:
Do you do your other work for nothing or close to it? - my bet is that you don't.
Do you accept reduced rates or punitive conditions in your other work, forced upon you, once you've agreed to perform a contract? Again I'll bet you don't.
Do you understand the principle of good faith in contracting?
Do you understand the meaning of the term 'duress', and its implications in contractual relationships.
Uber is using duress on existing contractors to achieve its own selfish goals.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

Lowestformofwit said:


> Irrespective of what you think, Paul,
> repeatedly paying someone less than it may cost them to perform work (i.e. no contingency factor included, or no reasonable profit margin either) is exploitation, in most people's book.
> Questions for you:
> Do you do your other work for nothing or close to it? - my bet is that you don't.
> ...


52% of uber drivers drive less than 10 hours per week and only 22% drive 40+ hours per week and it is worth noting this before we paint all driver the same.
You are still missing my point, every driver accepts and signs on to those poor rates/conditions. There are many factors that come into play, for example in my case I used the $20k accelerated depreciation and so profitability is by a different measure.
A driver can not claim to be exploited when he or she choose that. Is any driver 'forced' to drive?


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

Paul Collins said:


> Is any driver 'forced' to drive?


Not forced, though strongly influenced under false pretense and promises of good money.

If Uber were entirely honest, you could claim whatever you want and it would be a fair statement but the fact is Uber is dishonest at the best of times and withhold vital information at sign up to ensure no disruption to the revolving door of drivers.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

True an


Instyle said:


> Not forced, though strongly influenced under false pretense and promises of good money.
> 
> If Uber were entirely honest, you could claim whatever you want and it would be a fair statement but the fact is Uber is dishonest at the best of times and withhold vital information at sign up to ensure no disruption to the revolving door of drivers.


True, and so the 'churn' has increased and something that uber are now very much aware of. 
I am not really sure I would call them dishonest, more like absence and withholding of the truth might be more appropriate as you state.


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

Paul Collins said:


> True an
> 
> True, and so the 'churn' has increased and something that uber are now very much aware of.
> I am not really sure I would call them dishonest, more like absence and withholding of the truth might be more appropriate as you state.


If they were 100% transparent, your argument would be valid.

Moves pin to country town and says "all Uber's are busy" Really? I think they mean No X Available, there's a big difference, clearly dishonest.


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## Lowestformofwit (Sep 2, 2016)

Paul Collins said:


> 52% of uber drivers drive less than 10 hours per week and only 22% drive 40+ hours per week and it is worth noting this before we paint all driver the same.
> You are still missing my point, every driver accepts and signs on to those poor rates/conditions.


No, I haven't missed your point, but you're using the old 'proof by selected instances' argument, by pointing only to the newer volunteers and part-timers; not every driver accepted and signed on for the current and severely eroded poor rates/conditions. 
My point here is that, on reading through the wider Forum, you'll find a lot of posts where longer-term drivers lament the 40% reduction to the rates they signed on at. In an economy where prices continually rise (except, seemingly, Uber rates), these guys have been sold down the river. They may have reasonably expected their sign-on rates to rise to keep pace with inflation; now they're struggling, often to meet non-discretionary outgoings which were manageable at their sign-on rates.
I agree that no-one is being forced to drive, but you might agree that a lot are being disadvantaged by driving under continually eroding conditions that they have no control over.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

Lowestformofwit said:


> No, I haven't missed your point, but you're using the old 'proof by selected instances' argument, by pointing only to the newer volunteers and part-timers; not every driver accepted and signed on for the current and severely eroded poor rates/conditions.
> My point here is that, on reading through the wider Forum, you'll find a lot of posts where longer-term drivers lament the 40% reduction to the rates they signed on at. In an economy where prices continually rise (except, seemingly, Uber rates), these guys have been sold down the river. They may have reasonably expected their sign-on rates to rise to keep pace with inflation; now they're struggling, often to meet non-discretionary outgoings which were manageable at their sign-on rates.
> I agree that no-one is being forced to drive, but you might agree that a lot are being disadvantaged by driving under continually eroding conditions that they have no control over.


I agree 100%. Uber were very misleading with the truth regarding the rates drop. No question about that at all and I have talked in detail with them about that. They never came our with a 'well we have now decided to leave the rates rates because of......' and that was very very wrong.

In reality however, every driver, long term or just a new driver, permanent or casual, accepts the conditions every time the sign onto the app. It is like agreeing to the current terms over and over again.

With only 22% of drivers doing 40+ hours it is not 'all' drivers that have been sold down a river.

At no time did any diver have any control of whatever uber did, said, or promoted as the conditions. That remains the case today.

Is it fare? Of course not. Is it evolving and moving back towards driver conditions? Yes.

A rate review is crumbly underway and I have been told that in all likelihood rates will rise. In fact I am still discussing with them dynamic driver rates where a 'fixed' rate does not really apply. They will be doing this for short trips with long driver ping times etc.



Instyle said:


> If they were 100% transparent, your argument would be valid.
> 
> Moves pin to country town and says "all Uber's are busy" Really? I think they mean No X Available, there's a big difference, clearly dishonest.


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## Thing (Oct 7, 2016)

Instyle said:


> Not forced, though strongly influenced under false pretense and promises of good money.
> 
> If Uber were entirely honest, you could claim whatever you want and it would be a fair statement but the fact is Uber is dishonest at the best of times and withhold vital information at sign up to ensure no disruption to the revolving door of drivers.


Exactly, if Uber were transparent, honest & told everyone we use all of these psychological inducements and other techniques to manipulate you to drive more, drive where we want, etc etc ... I wonder how many current drivers would stop driving & how many potential new drivers would not bother. 

Transparency & honesty is what Uber completely lacks - they should be forced to disclose all these practices so that when drivers accept the terms they are fully informed of what they are accepting.

Are these psychological inducements and other techniques to manipulate drivers in the terms & conditions that drivers tap to accept on the app ??


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

Thingy
I get it that you do not like uber. Many do not and for good reason.
What I do not get is why you still drive for uber, or do you not drive for uber?


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## χ²(1) (Jun 1, 2016)

Paul Collins said:


> In reality however, every driver, long term or just a new driver, permanent or casual, accepts the conditions every time the sign onto the app. It is like agreeing to the current terms over and over again.


Sounds like the "don't like it, then leave" argument. A universal argument which many have applied to employment, immigration, rental housing, utility companies, shopper satisfaction, etc. It also happens to be a logically unsound and fallacious argument.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

χ²(1) said:


> Sounds like the "don't like it, then leave" argument. A universal argument which many have applied to employment, immigration, rental housing, utility companies, shopper satisfaction, etc. It also happens to be a logically unsound and fallacious argument.


I am ok with the reality of, 'if you do not like it leave' approach. can you explain in more detail why I am wrong?



Instyle said:


> If they were 100% transparent, your argument would be valid.
> 
> Moves pin to country town and says "all Uber's are busy" Really? I think they mean No X Available, there's a big difference, clearly dishonest.


Are you going to admit you were wrong on this?


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## Thing (Oct 7, 2016)

Paul Collins said:


> Thingy
> I get it that you do not like uber. Many do not and for good reason.
> What I do not get is why you still drive for uber, or do you not drive for uber?


The nett return you get driving for Uber is cents in the dollar per km - no, I'm not that stupid to drive for such a ridiculously low return...


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

Paul Collins said:


> I am ok with the reality of, 'if you do not like it leave' approach. can you explain in more detail why I am wrong?
> 
> Are you going to admit you were wrong on this?


Check out Rathdowny, the demand for Uber is so high drivers are currently "busy" and not unavailable.

I can't admit to being wrong when I'm not.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

Instyle said:


> Check out Rathdowny, the demand for Uber is so high drivers are currently "busy" and not unavailable.
> 
> I can't admit to being wrong when I'm not.


What? Try Hervey Bay as that 'country town' you mentioned. What do you get now? Sp perhaps not 'all' country towns and places are treated the same? Try Kingaroy. Yep, inconsistent results but not all as you claimed.


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

Paul Collins said:


> Yep, inconsistent results but not all as you claimed.


Inconsistent results is very accurate portray of Uber.

Hervey Bay a country town? Rathdowny is a country town, regardless the fact remains Uber is dishonest to drivers and passengers.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

Instyle said:


> Inconsistent results is very accurate portray of Uber.
> 
> Hervey Bay a country town? Rathdowny is a country town, regardless the fact remains Uber is dishonest to drivers and passengers.


So, you admit that it 'depends' on the location as to the 'screen' that uber present. Well, we can agree on that at least.


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## fields (Jul 11, 2016)

The make it to $300 or you are $646 behind last week's earnings message hasn't been appearing on our screens for months. I doubt it worked anyway. Offering stacked trips clearly does work but Uber would not know when someone is likely to log off.

Just another bit of bad journalism.


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