# How do you measure profitability?



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Dollars per active time?

Dollars per total time from driveway back to home?

Dollars per mile from driveway back to home?

Or some other metric?


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Judge and Jury said:


> Dollars per active time?
> 
> Dollars per total time from driveway back to home?
> 
> ...


It is the same for ANY business.

The formula to calculate profit is: Total Revenue - Total Expenses = Profit.

Don't forget to monetize depreciation. It is an expense.
i.e. If you spend $1200 on a car and it will need to be replaced in twelve months, then your monthly depreciation is $100 per month. 

So, simply put it is what you make, minus what it costs you to make it.
ALL costs.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Once you have the PROFIT number, you can apply it any way you want.

You can divide it by the number of 'runs' you make, or the number of business miles you drove, or hours you worked ... anything really.
But, you gotta get at your PROFIT number first.

Money you made MINUS what it cost you to make it = PROFIT.



.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

I look at $/hr and $/mile, both gross and net (four separate calculations). But I'm OCD


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## Alantc (Jun 15, 2018)

My profit is when I can put it in the savings account each week and not use it.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Ted Fink said:


> I look at $/hr and $/mile, both gross and net (four separate calculations). But I'm OCD


Gross $ per hr is cash flow. Net (after taxes and expenses) is profit.


Alantc said:


> My profit is when I can put it in the savings account each week and not use it.


That' not profit, that's dumb.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Generally has to be $12+ for a trip to be worth it. I haven't seen $5-10 trips add up to any measurable extent.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

UberBastid said:


> Gross $ per hr is cash flow. Net (after taxes and expenses) is profit.


That's what I was referring to. I use 4 metrics. Gross/hr and Gross/mile are just as they sound... Net/hr and Net/mile are after all expenses. I find Net/mile the most useful. But net/hr helps me see how much actual reward i'm getting for the time i spend.


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## tkman (Apr 13, 2020)

Here's the gory details of what I track. 
It seems like a lot however it takes 5 minutes each night after I stop driving and provides all the information I need for taxes, expense and income tracking. 

I calculate my net earnings in various ways. I start with my delivery pay, subtract HST costs (for Uber and Canada .13%), then the Canadian government estimates the total cost of a vehicle per kilometer is $0.59 for the first 5000k in any year or 0.53 for any Kilometer after 5000. So I deduct .53*number of K in a delivery and this give me a net amount. That I then divide by the number of hours I've been driving to get a net earning per hour after all costs. I don't do this on a per trip basis but on a daily total basis.
Thus my spreadsheet looks like the table below.

In the table I grossed 118.67 in 4.5 hours subtracted 5.33 for HST= gross per hour of $25.19. Subtract actual gas costs $17.95 to get a net immediate rate per hour of $21.2. 
I also do a full car expense rate: Total minus the HST tax minus (Kilometers times the rate per Kilometer) and minus the cost of my monthly cell plan divided by 1 days worth of expense, then divide this by the number of hours and get $7.27/hr after all expenses.
I do the immediate costing versus the government fully costed to see the difference. The full costs include depreciation, gas, repairs, insurance, licensing. In my case I have a 14 year old car (360k or for the Americans 224Miles) that I consider fully depreciated however the car repairs go up. New brake pads and rotors every year, New set of tires every year. (2 new tires every year. 2 Winter tires one year, 2 summer tires the next year.). Need new front control arm and bushings, and one new front wheel bearing in the next month. As long as the repairs cost less than $2000 per year and I like the car, it is cost effective compared to buying a new car and effectively spending $2500/year in depreciation. However the rust on my car is a growing problem. Once a floor rusts out on a car it gets harder to keep it running safely. 



*Date*​*Pay for Deliveries*​*Tips*​*Promo Pay or Boost pay*​*Distance*​*Total Grose Earnings*​*Trips*​*Points*​*Time*​*HST Guess based on average $1.50 per trip + what I am paid*​*Gross/hour*​*Rate/Upay*​*Gas*​*Rate - Imm x*​*Auto Exp rate*​*Total K’s*​*Auto Exp +cell*​*Net – all x*​*Car Repairs*​*Repair Note*​*Kil when gas refilled*​*Gas Cost/ Kil*​*Price / L*​*L/100K*​*No of litres*​Thu 2021-12-30​46.33​67.66​4.68​148​$118.67​12​26​4.5​$5.33​$25.19​$10.30​$17.95​21.2​0.53​18434​$80.61​7.27​​​194​0.12125​1.299​10.713​20.784​


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

I measure profitability in bananas per epoch. 

It makes more sense than dollars per hour because I don't work an hourly shift and you can't eat dollars.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Judge and Jury said:


> Dollars per active time?
> 
> Dollars per total time from driveway back to home?
> 
> ...


Dollars per day. On the two days I drive per week I write off the whole day. So it's dollars per day. It's a minimum goal. I know that if I make that goal I will be both profitable, and in fact profitable enough to make the gig worth it.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Judge and Jury said:


> Dollars per active time?
> 
> Dollars per total time from driveway back to home?
> 
> ...


I use two - revenue per hour and revenue per driven mile.

My target revenue and do-not-go-home-before level is $200 on weeknights and $250 on weekend nights.


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## Guido-TheKillerPimp (Jan 4, 2021)

Judge and Jury said:


> Dollars per active time?
> 
> Dollars per total time from driveway back to home?
> 
> ...


Gross revenue - expenses ÷ time in vehicle = Net profit.
Simple.


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## Guido-TheKillerPimp (Jan 4, 2021)

_Tron_ said:


> Dollars per day. On


And is each day the same hours spent in vehicle? I'm guessing, no!


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Guido-TheKillerPimp said:


> Gross revenue - expenses ÷ time in vehicle = Net profit.
> Simple.


wrong.
Equals net profit PER HOUR.

.


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## Guido-TheKillerPimp (Jan 4, 2021)

UberBastid said:


> wrong.
> Equals net profit PER HOUR.
> 
> .


Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean't.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

I track several things but 2 important metrics for me I have been tracking for 5 years on spreadsheets so I have a wealth of data.

Let me start by saying neither metric measures _profitability._ They are indicators.

Gross revenue per mile. It's important to track ALL mileage driveway to driveway so the impact of dead miles can be considered. This is most important to me because it gives me _operational_ data that I can use to develop strategic behaviors from. When I employ different strategies I can then see the results of that which helps me understand what offers I will take, what geography I will go to, what type of restaurants I'll pick up from etc.etc.. Also, it's the best indicator of how efficiently/effectively I'm using my asset (car) to generate a return. (ROI)
Gross revenue per hour. This is far less important to me as it doesn't really provide any operational data as it's too high level Generic to be useful for that. Since we don't actually pay ourselves an hourly wage your hours spent literally have nothing to do with actual profit. However, I track it to see if doing this is worth my _Time._ I have goals for this.
To truly track your profitability you would have to understand your true vehicle cost per mile and also factor into that your prorated overhead costs (i.e. phone, bank fees) per mile. Again, forget labor as you don't get paid an hourly wage.

P.S. Taxable Income is far different from profit.


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## CJfrom619 (Apr 27, 2017)

UberBastid said:


> It is the same for ANY business.
> 
> The formula to calculate profit is: Total Revenue - Total Expenses = Profit.
> 
> ...


This one always gets me...so as rideshare driver we always like to factor car depreciation and maintenance which we should. My question is? Isnt everyone paying that expense? I remember all the jobs I still had before Uber..I was still paying for oil changes ,brakes etc. Now I understand I visit the mechanic more then my neighbor but certainly myneighbor sees the same cars bills I do just not as frequent. I feel like drivers forget that everyone drives a car and has those same expenses ours are justt more.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Guido-TheKillerPimp said:


> And is each day the same hours spent in vehicle? I'm guessing, no!


For someone who quit 'cause their getting rich day trading you sure pop up a lot.

Actually hours per day doesn't vary all that much. A range of about 8-10 hours actual driving time. I'm grateful that I can make my goal without having to drive too late.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Revision to my earlier post... I've recently decided that gross $/hr and gross $/mi aren't that useful to me. I think I kept them on my spreadsheet because they were higher "feel good" numbers. I've eliminated that columns and now I only look at NET $/hr and NET $/mi after expenses.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> Revision to my earlier post... I've recently decided that gross $/hr and gross $/mi aren't that useful to me. I think I kept them on my spreadsheet because they were higher "feel good" numbers. I've eliminated that columns and now I only look at NET $/hr and NET $/mi after expenses.


Just curious, how do you calculate your Net $/Mile. Have you done a deep dive to know what your actual cost per mile is? (not the IRS allowance)


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## Rickos69 (Nov 8, 2018)

Seamus said:


> Just curious, how do you calculate your Net $/Mile. Have you done a deep dive to know what your actual cost per mile is? (not the IRS allowance)


Does some kind of cost per mile chart exist for all cars?
It just popped into my head that something like that exists. I'm probably wrong.


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## Go Uber or Go Home (Jul 13, 2016)

Judge and Jury said:


> Dollars per active time?
> 
> Dollars per total time from driveway back to home?
> 
> ...


Majority like to go off online time or whats even more delusional is the "active time"🤣

the best to see if you're well or not is the dollars per mile. There is a hinderance to this because, believe it or not, people camp at airports for 8-10hours a night waiting for the big surge and only take those. So they probably made $20 for 5miles of driving but they also waited 5hours for that 1 ping vs if you actually drove 5hours you probably could've made $200+ but in ~100miles. 

But if you are actually smart with a financial goal in hand, you'll tell yourself "if i drive every weekend and make $500, I'll have so and so saved up" You aren't caring how many hours or miles you drove to complete that goal. Dont get me wrong its nice to think about that stuff its just different people operate differently.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

CJfrom619 said:


> This one always gets me...so as rideshare driver we always like to factor car depreciation and maintenance which we should. My question is? Isnt everyone paying that expense? I remember all the jobs I still had before Uber..I was still paying for oil changes ,brakes etc. Now I understand I visit the mechanic more then my neighbor but certainly myneighbor sees the same cars bills I do just not as frequent. I feel like drivers forget that everyone drives a car and has those same expenses ours are justt more.


Difference is, your neighbor is not using his car to generate income.
You do, so you want to know profit.

With the neighbor there is no generation of income and no profit.
Pure expense. Personal expense.

If you use your vehicle for both personal and business, you can allocate a % of the depreciation and maintenance expense.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Seamus said:


> Just curious, how do you calculate your Net $/Mile. Have you done a deep dive to know what your actual cost per mile is? (not the IRS allowance)


Yes. I calculated cost of gas, maintenance (fluid changes, tires, brakes, etc), and depreciation, and allowed some room for unexpected repairs. Did a VERY deep dive.


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## Go Uber or Go Home (Jul 13, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> Difference is, your neighbor is not using his car to generate income.
> You do, so you want to know profit.
> 
> With the neighbor there is no generation of income and no profit.
> ...


not so fast. that neighbor is using his car to drive to his 9-5, which is 25miles one-way. That's still 50miles every day. One could argue some Uber drivers do ~50-100miles/day. So he has a point to some degree. Pure profit only is if you are a work from homer and car sits in driveway.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Go Uber or Go Home said:


> Majority like to go off online time or whats even more delusional is the "active time"🤣
> 
> the best to see if you're well or not is the dollars per mile. There is a hinderance to this because, believe it or not, people camp at airports for 8-10hours a night waiting for the big surge and only take those. So they probably made $20 for 5miles of driving but they also waited 5hours for that 1 ping vs if you actually drove 5hours you probably could've made $200+ but in ~100miles.
> 
> But if you are actually smart with a financial goal in hand, you'll tell yourself "if i drive every weekend and make $500, I'll have so and so saved up" You aren't caring how many hours or miles you drove to complete that goal. Dont get me wrong its nice to think about that stuff its just different people operate differently.


Dollars per mile puts value on the car
The value is your time using a car
Cars are cheap you can buy another one or fix the one you have
Time on the other hand as you noted is valuable and 
can be better used cherry picking , hitting a juicy quest or setting up surge rides


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Rickos69 said:


> Does some kind of cost per mile chart exist for all cars?
> It just popped into my head that something like that exists. I'm probably wrong.


It might exist on a high level as a standards but their would be significant variations for each person if you really wanted actual data because of the differences in gas prices, insurance, tolls, etc.etc. that are somewhat geography related.

However, if you want to get close but not 100% accurate, you could go to Edmunds and look at the "True cost of ownership" and that will lay out the categories for you. You can then divided it by the number of miles on your car to get the per mile cost. You can then make adjustments based as you see fit. It's not going to be as exact as if you did it yourself but it puts you in the ballpark and gives you a format to follow if you wanted to calculate it with your own numbers based off your records.

What I find as my actual cost per mile is approximately .27 cents .


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## Guido-TheKillerPimp (Jan 4, 2021)

Seamus said:


> Since we don't actually pay ourselves an hourly wage your hours spent literally have nothing to do with actual profit


Profit, no. Income, yes!


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Seamus said:


> Just curious, how do you calculate your Net $/Mile. Have you done a deep dive to know what your actual cost per mile is? (not the IRS allowance)


You're making it harder than it needs to be.
What do you mean by net $/mile? Profit per mile? Or expenses (cost) per mile?

Compute profit, divide by miles driven = 'net $' profit per mile.
or
Add up expenses and divide by miles driven = cost per mile.


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## Hexonxonx (Dec 11, 2019)

I don't measure it. At night, I have a $100+ goal from 5-pm-10pm and I get at least $100 during that time. I have two hybrid cars so I use very little gas while waiting for orders.


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## ThanksUber (Jul 26, 2017)

I measure profitabily by the thousands of dollars I can write off my taxes driving my 2004 Toyota with 690,000 miles. Over 50,000 miles this year alone.


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## CJfrom619 (Apr 27, 2017)

UberBastid said:


> Difference is, your neighbor is not using his car to generate income.
> You do, so you want to know profit.
> 
> With the neighbor there is no generation of income and no profit.
> ...


Right that is kind of my point. Others act as if drivers are the only ones who pay for car expenses? Everyone does? I would still have car expenses if I had another job but ours are just more extensive. I factor my car expenses in sure but their should be some adjustment knowing I would have those expenses anyways.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

CJfrom619 said:


> Right that is kind of my point. Others act as if drivers are the only ones who pay for car expenses? Everyone does? I would still have car expenses if I had another job but ours are just more extensive. I factor my car expenses in sure but their should be some adjustment knowing I would have those expenses anyways.


Yep
only apply the expenses that apply to the business.

If you drive 40% for pay, then 40% of insurance, tires, oil changes, depreciation should be applied.
That goes without saying.
That is GAAP. (Generally Accepted Accounting Practices).


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Seamus said:


> It might exist on a high level as a standards but their would be significant variations for each person if you really wanted actual data because of the differences in gas prices, insurance, tolls, etc.etc. that are somewhat geography related.
> 
> However, if you want to get close but not 100% accurate, you could go to Edmunds and look at the "True cost of ownership" and that will lay out the categories for you. You can then divided it by the number of miles on your car to get the per mile cost. You can then make adjustments based as you see fit. It's not going to be as exact as if you did it yourself but it puts you in the ballpark and gives you a format to follow if you wanted to calculate it with your own numbers based off your records.
> 
> What I find as my actual cost per mile is approximately .27 cents .


Mine is right about the same. What do you drive?


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> Mine is right about the same. What do you drive?


I use a Honda Civic for Food Delivery, what do you drive?


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

UberBastid said:


> You're making it harder than it needs to be.
> What do you mean by net $/mile? Profit per mile? Or expenses (cost) per mile?
> 
> Compute profit, divide by miles driven = 'net $' profit per mile.
> ...


This isn’t something a track on a regular basis. I was asking the question to someone that does. My main metrics are gross revenue per mile and gross revenue per hour which isn’t profitability.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Seamus said:


> I use a Honda Civic for Food Delivery, what do you drive?


2015 Honda Accord Hybrid. Average 44mpg. Maintenance very low (as with your civic too).


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## Alltel77 (Mar 3, 2019)

The dollars per mile thing makes absolutely no sense where I drive. Two miles east for $9 taking me over a draw bridge that I'll probably end up sitting through twice or 3 miles for $10 to go downtown is not worth it. I just accept whatever pays the best and a quick pick-up/drop off. I usually accept a UE while picking up a DD or vice versa to keep it moving within a very small zone I want to stay in. No, I don't accept $2 $3, $4 offers.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

I just earn alot if I can no spread sheets. Know what my costs are. Must pay taxes do income brackets... actual expenses only. I wrote off my van last year. So I cannot do miles.. but it's a benifit. In my platform I do the short game....
It pays to get account if you have a w2 job wife w2. And alot of 1099s. They will tell you what you can buy. Like new phone s22 ultra...trade in my old one Samsung. Guess what. I dont know the actual $$amount from samsung my phone and $400 $1200 phone.
It may be 100% write off . Or nothing . I have 2 business lines.you guys know you must know your numbers. With me it's a no brains x days $1600 plus I owe..period..last year not too bad. Year before alot...account if you do black car. Will tell you hey when you hit x amount for year. Your tax will go up to say 27% from say 20% just example.. but if it's late nov. Dont work 3 weeks. A good accountant is priceless


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

UberBastid said:


> It is the same for ANY business.
> 
> The formula to calculate profit is: Total Revenue - Total Expenses = Profit.
> 
> ...


Yep.

Dollars per mile from driveway to return, minus expenses.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Trafficat said:


> I measure profitability in bananas per epoch.
> 
> It makes more sense than dollars per hour because I don't work an hourly shift and you can't eat dollars.


What is your definition of epoch?

And, though not nutritious, you can actually eat and digest dollar bills.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

_Tron_ said:


> Dollars per day. On the two days I drive per week I write off the whole day. So it's dollars per day. It's a minimum goal. I know that if I make that goal I will be both profitable, and in fact profitable enough to make the gig worth it.


So, three hundred miles to make $150?

Does not sound profitable.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

tkman said:


> Here's the gory details of what I track.
> It seems like a lot however it takes 5 minutes each night after I stop driving and provides all the information I need for taxes, expense and income tracking.
> 
> I calculate my net earnings in various ways. I start with my delivery pay, subtract HST costs (for Uber and Canada .13%), then the Canadian government estimates the total cost of a vehicle per kilometer is $0.59 for the first 5000k in any year or 0.53 for any Kilometer after 5000. So I deduct .53*number of K in a delivery and this give me a net amount. That I then divide by the number of hours I've been driving to get a net earning per hour after all costs. I don't do this on a per trip basis but on a daily total basis.
> ...


No floor boards equals no gas expense.

Flintstone style.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Guido-TheKillerPimp said:


> Gross revenue - expenses ÷ time in vehicle = Net profit.
> Simple.


Time in vehicle?

Time in vehicle does not seem to be an expense.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> Dollars per mile puts value on the car
> The value is your time using a car
> Cars are cheap you can buy another one or fix the one you have
> Time on the other hand as you noted is valuable and
> can be better used cherry picking , hitting a juicy quest or setting up surge rides


Seems to me that cherry picking wastes valuable time, waiting for the unicorn.

But, cherry picking is the way to profitability.

Dollars per mile, not dollars per hour, or even dollars per epoch.


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## Guido-TheKillerPimp (Jan 4, 2021)

Judge and Jury said:


> Time in vehicle?
> 
> Time in vehicle does not seem to be an expense.


Physically and mentally, it is! Think about it.


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

Judge and Jury said:


> Seems to me that cherry picking wastes valuable time, waiting for the unicorn.
> 
> But, cherry picking is the way to profitability.


Delivering cheap orders wastes valuable time. Better to make nothing than lose money.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

Rickos69 said:


> Does some kind of cost per mile chart exist for all cars?
> It just popped into my head that something like that exists. I'm probably wrong.


I created a spreadsheet to calculate cost per mile driven. The same exact vehicle driven by two different people will have different costs per mile driven as there are many variables to factor in. Different driving habits will alter fuel economy, brake wear, and tire wear, just to name a few. Everyone has different insurance rates, fuel costs, repair costs. For example I do my own brakes, pads only can run $20-$40. Have it done at a shop and it could cost up to $500.

Also I consider cost per mile driven as a dynamic number, meaning it can always change. By keeping up with my calculations I always know what my cost per mile driven is at the current time. Insurance costs go up, that effects my current costs per mile. Same with dramatic fuel costs, these need to be factored in. Knowing my cost per mile I can quickly calculate if a ping is worth it when I have to factor in miles to the pick-up.

I measure my profitability on earnings per mile driven. I don't factor in time. If I don't have the time to drive, I don't drive. My driving time is free time where I don't have anything better to do.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

Judge and Jury said:


> What is your definition of epoch?


My Epoch runs in 5 day periods from 6 PM to 6 PM. The Crypto staking pool I'm in defines it for me.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

Ted Fink said:


> Yes. I calculated cost of gas, maintenance (fluid changes, tires, brakes, etc), and depreciation, and allowed some room for unexpected repairs. Did a VERY deep dive.


I got separate van . Insurance. Mobile equipment. Etc.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Seamus said:


> Just curious, how do you calculate your Net $/Mile. Have you done a deep dive to know what your actual cost per mile is? (not the IRS allowance)


I cant speak for anyone else, but Ive done a dive, maybe not a deep dive, but a dive none-the-less.

at 20 mpgl .$3 gas was 15 cents a mile $4 gas is 20 cents a mile $5 gas would be 25 cents a mile
I budget 5 cents a mile for maintenance and repair and after 4 years, that's turned out to be a good number
Insurance is high because I buy commercial insurance ....6 cents a mile
Depreciation is not a cash expense so I dont consider it. 

so expenses are 32.5 cents a mile and going up 

(Income / total miles) has been 75 cents a mile My challenge is to bring that up, to offset the increasing gas prices


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

The question is really what do you want to get out of it. I used to be an accountant, so I could numbers this thing to death. Instead, I look at the trip computer and say "That's 110 miles since I left the house at 22 miles per gallon is 5 gallons X $5 per gallon is $25. I've made $125 - $25. It's been 5 hours. $100 is enough for today. I want pizza." and I go home. 

To the original question, I will say this: regardless of what you want to get out of it, you should set your trip meter when you pull out of your driveway and put the mileage in a spreadsheet when you get home. Every mile you spend in pursuit of a ride is deductible. If you're out for 5 hours with the sole intent of doing Uber, all mileage in that 5 hours is deductible whether you get any rides or not. You probably already know this. So, it stands to reason any standard of profitability should be based on that whole time you're out as well. Whether you want to gauge the overall result in hours or days or whatever is just personal preference, but inactive time is still cost time for you. If you're calculating on active time alone, you don't have your true costs to determine any "profit."


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Judge and Jury said:


> Dollars per active time?
> 
> Dollars per total time from driveway back to home?
> 
> ...


 (Gig worker Driver)
A) vehicle expenses per mile = @ $.56
B) general independant contractor "indirect overhead hourly" = $3.00
C) hourly salary benefits and self- employment taxes @ $30.00 an hour
D) Profit hourly = $2.00 an hour


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

TM6.5 said:


> (Gig worker Driver)
> A) vehicle expenses per mile = @ $.56
> B) general independant contractor "indirect overhead hourly" = $3.00
> C) hourly salary benefits and self- employment taxes @ $30.00 an hour
> D) Profit hourly = $2.00 an hour


Seems I defined my original post poorly.

My intention was to ask what parameters do drivers use in the thirty to forty seconds available to decide whether or not an offer may be profitable.

By the way, have you ever heard of the term "sweat equity"?

Dollars per hour may be useful in determining whether the sunk cost fallacy applies, but it is not an indicator of profitability in the endeavor itself.


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

UberBastid said:


> It is the same for ANY business.
> 
> The formula to calculate profit is: Total Revenue - Total Expenses = Profit.
> 
> ...


Lets summarize this as such:
1) "provide a vehicle" expense cost: @ $.56 a mile.
2) employees wages and benifits: @ $30.00 an hour.
3) gig workers general indirect overhead expense: $3.00

4) gig drivers



CJfrom619 said:


> This one always gets me...so as rideshare driver we always like to factor car depreciation and maintenance which we should. My question is? Isnt everyone paying that expense? I remember all the jobs I still had before Uber..I was still paying for oil changes ,brakes etc. Now I understand I visit the mechanic more then my neighbor but certainly myneighbor sees the same cars bills I do just not as frequent. I feel like drivers forget that everyone drives a car and has those same expenses ours are justt more.


The cost of providing a vehicle = $.56 a mile for a fuel efficient car. Who can aff
Uber independent contractors fee summary:* Hourly invoice rate = $35.00 an hour plus miles @ $.56 per mile.



Judge and Jury said:


> Yep.
> 
> Dollars per mile from driveway to return, minus expenses.
> [/QUOTE
> ...


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

TM6.5 said:


> (Gig worker Driver)
> A) vehicle expenses per mile = @ $.56
> B) general independant contractor "indirect overhead hourly" = $3.00
> C) hourly salary benefits and self- employment taxes @ $30.00 an hour
> D) Profit hourly = $2.00 an hour


Your vehicle expenses probably isnt 56 cents per mile. Thats the standard mileage deduction that the irs allows when doing your taxes, Most of us use that at tax time rather than actual expenses, because it is such a generous deduction


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

TM6.5 said:


> Lets summarize this as such:
> 1) "provide a vehicle" expense cost: @ $.56 a mile.
> 2) employees wages and benifits: @ $30.00 an hour.
> 3) gig workers general indirect overhead expense: $3.00
> ...


A lot of assumptions in your calculations.

Are you a profitable contractor in your market?


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

oldfart said:


> Your vehicle expenses probably isnt 56 cents per mile. Thats the standard mileage deduction that the irs allows when doing your taxes, Most of us use that at tax time rather than actual expenses, because it is such a generous deduction


well let’s break down the cost per mile

1) depreciation physical not tax world if you buy a new vehicle @ $25,000.00 and drive it for 250,000 miles with out interest it = ($.10) a mile (no interest)
2) fuel: $4.50 a gallon @ 20 mpg = ($.23)
3) oil and filter service every 5,000 miles = ($.05)
4) tires $800.00 / 25,000 miles = ($.035)
5) tune up @ (50,000) miles = $750.00 = ($.015)
6) full fluid and filter service @ (50,000) miles ($800.00) = ($.016)
7) brakes - shocks - wear other @ (50,000) miles ($800.00) = ($.016)
8) engine - transmission and drive line repairs ($.04)
9 misc expenses ($.02)
10) total per mile expenses = ($.502

hmm? What


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Judge and Jury said:


> A lot of assumptions in your calculations.
> 
> Are you a profitable contractor in your market?
> Well I offered a business budget as such.
> Clearly your expenses may vary everyone is welcome to offer a better plan.


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

this is a great time for others to share their salary and pricing structure.
If there is a better program that meets a living income needs and covers overhead please speak up!


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

TM6.5 said:


> well let’s break down the cost per mile
> 
> 1) depreciation physical not tax world if you buy a new vehicle @ $25,000.00 and drive it for 250,000 miles with out interest it = ($.10) a mile (no interest)
> 2) fuel: $4.50 a gallon @ 20 mpg = ($.23)
> ...


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

TM6.5 said:


> this is a great time for others to share their salary and pricing structure.
> If there is a better program that meets a living income needs and covers overhead please speak up!
> 
> 
> the thread is subject matter profit


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

elelegido said:


> I use two - revenue per hour and revenue per driven mile.
> 
> My target revenue and do-not-go-home-before level is $200 on weeknights and $250 on weekend nights.





UberBastid said:


> wrong.
> Equals net profit PER HOUR.
> 
> .
> ...





Judge and Jury said:


> Dollars per active time?
> 
> Dollars per total time from driveway back to home?
> 
> ...


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Judge and Jury said:


> Dollars per active time?
> 
> Dollars per total time from driveway back to home?
> 
> ...


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

TM6.5 said:


> well let’s break down the cost per mile
> 
> 1) depreciation physical not tax world if you buy a new vehicle @ $25,000.00 and drive it for 250,000 miles with out interest it = ($.10) a mile (no interest)
> 2) fuel: $4.50 a gallon @ 20 mpg = ($.23)
> ...


Do you really pay $250 for an oil change and
replace tires every 25000 miles. I get 70000 miles out of new tires, and 30000 miles out of used tires when I can find decent 20" tires
$10000 for engine and transmission repair???

Im old and slowing down a bit, but Im not stupid and I still know how to add

These have been my actual expenses using a Ford Explorer that I already owned with 70,000 miles. At the time I estimated its value to be $18000. and sometime next week Ill turn 370000 miles

my depreciation then is $18,000.00 over 300,000 miles = ($.06) a mile, But from here on out I will have no depreciation expense

fuel: $4.50 a gallon @ 20 mpg = ($.23)

My actual maintenance and repair expenses have been 0.05/mile
I include commercial insurance at 5 cents a mile
total expenses = until next week,,, 39 cents a mile, then it drops to 34 cents

Someone that drives a cheaper, more efficient car will do much better


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

oldfart said:


> Do you really pay $250 for an oil change and
> replace tires every 25000 miles. I get 70000 miles out of new tires, and 30000 miles out of used tires
> $10000 for engine and transmission repair???
> 
> ...


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

TM6.5 said:


> 1) A full service - fluid top off - filter change average tire rotation and vehicle clean is around $250.00 every 5,000.00 miles.
> 
> 2) vehicle replacement cost = $25,000.00 @ 250,000 miles is still = $.10 have you checked the cost of a replacement vehicle once old harry dies? Wait until you go down to replace your old explorer? You will fall over! (.10) a mile at 300,000.00 miles will only buy you 1/3 a new explorer.
> 
> ...


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## jaxbeachrides (May 27, 2015)

I mean noone buys a brand new car to deliver food.

Old honda civic $1500. Already fully depreciated.

Costs somewhere around .20 cents a mile tops.

Even if you did buy a brand new car, you'd buy a 4 cylinder Japanese car, it would last longer than 250k, and your costs would be around .30 cents per mile getting 30 mpg.


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

TM6.5 said:


> A new comparison replacement Ford Explorer type vehicle will cost you $35,000.00 / your mileage = ($.10) a mile.





TM6.5 said:


> [





jaxbeachrides said:


> I mean noone buys a brand new car to deliver food.
> 
> Old honda civic $1500. Already fully depreciated.
> 
> ...


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

> TM6.5 said:
> 1) A full service - fluid top off - filter change average tire rotation and vehicle clean is around $250.00 every 5,000.00 miles.
> 
> 2) vehicle replacement cost = $25,000.00 @ 250,000 miles is still = $.10 have you checked the cost of a replacement vehicle once old harry dies? Wait until you go down to replace your old explorer? You will fall over! (.10) a mile at 300,000.00 miles will only buy you 1/3 a new explorer.
> ...



1) Ive switched over to synthetic oil and Ive been sending samples to a lab each time Based on the lab results Im changing the oil every 10000 miles. I kinda ignored the transmission for the first 300000 miles I depended on the ford manual that said service the transmission at 150000 miles. I have learned that thats not enough, So Ive started giving the transmission more attention. Every 10000 miles Ive been draining 4 quarts and adding 4. The labs are better and the fluid drained is a nice red color. I used to pay a shop $50 to do an oil change every 5000 miles, Now Im doing it myself as well as the transmission drain and fill I spend $100 every 10000 miles for the oil and filters

2) Depreciation and replacement cost are two different things. When and if I buy another car it wont be new, and yea I know what cars cost I get it, you have to be prepared to replace the car ,and I am, but building a replacement fund is not an expense... If I buy another car Ill set up a depreciation schedule based on what I pay for it. 

3) I have no idea what tires Im running. I go to a used tire dealer if he doesn't have used tires that look good to me he sells me something new. The tires on the car now were bought new (two last May and two in July). Ill replace the two this month (at 70000 miles) and the other two in several months,. I replace tires when they have no tread

4) yes brakes, yes front struts. I also did a proactive water pump replacement, which on this car is a $2000 job

5) Tune ups arent what they used to be when cars had carburetors and points to adjust, today there are probably more definitions of what a tune up is than there are mechanics. I think of a "tune up" as plugs and coils, and serpentine belt, The manual calls for this work every 150000 miles,


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

You need to learn how to use this forum


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

TM6.5 said:


> this is all blue, not readable


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

TM6.5 said:


> (Gig worker Driver)
> A) vehicle expenses per mile = @ $.56
> B) general independant contractor "indirect overhead hourly" = $3.00
> C) hourly salary benefits and self- employment taxes @ $30.00 an hour
> D) Profit hourly = $2.00 an hour


The standard mileage deduction for 2022 is $.585. They upped it.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Judge and Jury said:


> My intention was to ask what parameters do drivers use in the thirty to forty seconds available to decide whether or not an offer may be profitable.


Ah. I look at pickup time plus ride time and if it's less than $30 an hour/$.50 a minute, I turn it down. EG: 7 minute pickup + 12 minute ride = 19 minutes, call it 20 minutes of my time, and I turn it down if it's under $10. It's definitely not the most accurate or even reliable way, but it is the fastest so you can grab the ride in a few seconds.

Now, that said, this is my retirement gig and I am more than happy to clear $20 an hour after gas. While I'm not getting paid every single minute, starting at that $30 plus my tips plus 15% of my rides being Comfort means I'm always over $20, usually over $30 on the weekends, and average about $25 for the week now. So, the $30 as a starting point consistently gets me there. Obviously you need a number based on what you want to make and your gas and/or other expenses, but if that's your question this is how I do it. You gotta figure while there'll be some variation week to week, you'll generally have somewhere around X% of people who tip if you're constantly working the same area, so it's not really all that horrible a simple starting point for convenience.

I just changed vehicles and should save about 30% on gas and am now eligible for Premier, so we'll see how far a couple of those a month and the gas savings change the net on the same formula.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> So, three hundred miles to make $150?
> 
> Does not sound profitable.


300 miles at 35 cents a mile = $105 (expenses)
150-105 = 45

$45 /day doesn’t do it for me, but do it 12 days a month and you have $540 which would pay all my utilities, or all my groceries or my Medicare supplement 

It’s not a lot but it’s still a positive number


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

How do I filter the rides I’m offered? I add the distance to pick up and length of ride. I’ll reject anything where the pay is less than half the miles

so I’ll take a 10 mile pick up for a 10 mile ride (20 miles) if it pays over $10.

Don’t get me wrong. That’s not a good ride. But the XL rides I get and the private rides and tips bring my average up to over 80 cents a mile (total miles) and that’s good enough for me


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

oldfart said:


> How do I filter the rides I’m offered? I add the distance to pick up and length of ride. I’ll reject anything where the pay is less than half the miles
> 
> so I’ll take a 10 mile pick up for a 10 mile ride (20 miles) if it pays over $10.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong. That’s not a good ride. But the XL rides I get and the private rides and tips bring my average up to over 80 cents a mile (total miles) and that’s good enough for me


Hi old timer.

I hate the mileage metric as a stand alone income revenue source. (It is messed up)

The algorithm has flaws by minutes and miles.

(let me share my strategy here)

what we are selling here is 4 items
1) our labor - benefits - taxes
2) general overhead
3) vehicle expenses
4) profit ( profit is not labor)

let’s break down as such:

salary earnings: (annualized)
1) retirement earnings = $4,000.00
2) health related care earnings = $4,800.00
3) base salary = $42,000.00 (W-2) employee
4) add self- employment FICA = $3,900.00
5) cell phone expenses = $700.00
6) general overhead = $2,500.00
7) add profit = $5,000.00
8) gross sole proprietor’s income minus vehicle expenses. = $63,900.00

NOTE: this excludes vehicle expenses (add per mile)

so let’s break this down into a algorithm (per minute)

A) Gross revenues = line 8 = $63,900.00
B minutes per year = (46) weeks x (36) hours a week (billable minutes a year) = (97,200) minutes a year
C so let’s calculate the cost per minute: gross revenues line (A) = ($63,900.00) / (gross minutes) annualized line B (97,200) = cost per minute change =$.65 + (vehicle) expenses)

so if you accept a 10 mile pick up and a 10 mile ride and it takes you (45) minutes to complete this (port to port) service you need to get paid for (45 minutes) @ ($.65) per minute + $(29.25) plus your vehicle expenses.

I had a plumber in to replace a faucet for me the other day it cost me $1.00 a minute


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

TM6.5 said:


> Hi old timer.
> 
> I hate the mileage metric as a stand alone income revenue source. (It is messed up)
> 
> ...


ONCE AGAIN... how many times are you going to repeat this, and in how many different threads? I'm over it. Ted out.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Ted Fink said:


> ONCE AGAIN... how many times are you going to repeat this, and in how many different threads? I'm over it. Ted out.


Also I hate to be picky (ok I don't), but under "so let’s break this down into a algorithm" ... that's not an algorithm. It's a highly speculative simple math formula that falls into the "cannot solve for X because the problem does not provide all the required information" proof of impossibility theorem.


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## Merc49 (Apr 30, 2019)

If uber let's me keep enough to buy a hot dog,fries,and a coke, at the end of the day then it was profitable.


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Ted Fink said:


> ONCE AGAIN... how many times are you going to repeat this, and in how many different threads? I'm over it. Ted out.


I read a continuous amount of threads regarding pricing issues.

thread after tread has some aspect regarding algorithm math flawed metics regarding unit cost algorithms.

drivers giving up because they can not earn a living

Ted you need to follow the money if you are going to be successful in this business.

we can lean on each other here for assistance.

one can quickly go broke if revenues fail to meet expenses.

so you can either embrace a dialogue here with your option or just get pissed off from another’s perspective.


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Vagabond1 said:


> Also I hate to be picky (ok I don't), but under "so let’s break this down into a algorithm" ... that's not an algorithm. It's a highly speculative simple math formula that falls into the "cannot solve for X because the problem does not provide all the required information" proof of impossibility theorem.


Give me a break?

i have never offered you anything other than a financial perspective that is less than your goals to date?


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Merc49 said:


> If uber let's me keep enough to buy a hot dog,fries,and a coke, at the end of the day then it was profitable.
> 
> and there you go everyone has a theory for profits.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

TM6.5 said:


> Give me a break?
> 
> i have never offered you anything other than a financial perspective that is less than your goals to date?


Hrm. Ok.

1. I have no idea what you just asked me.

2. I'm a retired accountant and your "algorithm" that is not an algorithm jumbles expenses and income all into one pile, seems to count income that isn't income from ridesharing into profitability for ridesharing, uses an arbitrary number for profit that doesn't even appear big enough to be a goal, dismisses all taxes but self-employment taxes and then calculates self-employment taxes on earnings instead of net, has no basis for actual expenses rather than an arbitrary estimate that wouldn't even cover gas at those miles and hours .... I'm sorry, but that is not a financial perspective. It's a distraction.

And what is this? "... some aspect regarding algorithm math flawed metics regarding unit cost algorithms." I understand there may be some language issues here, and that's fine, but I have to tell you that in both plain English and in the math world that sentence means absolutely nothing.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Vagabond1 said:


> Hrm. Ok.
> 
> 1. I have no idea what you just asked me.
> 
> ...


I agree.
Some people like to make things more difficult than they are, and try to compute to the penny. It's not necessary.
Profit = Income minus expenses.
The easiest and simplest formula there is.
My fifth grade grandson understands it. He takes care of a couple of lawns in the neighborhood. He knows that when he makes $20 to do a lawn, he has to replace the gallon of gas he burned in the lawnmower ... he knows what his profit is. 

Profit is what you keep after paying all the bills.


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Vagabond1 said:


> Hrm. Ok.
> 
> 1. I have no idea what you just asked me.
> 
> ...


I am a retired business owner as well.
40 years of selling labor services.

I agree what I offered may be confusing.

1) let’s break this down into a gross annualized earnings with cash value of benefits as self -employed owners gross income = ($62,000.00) (includes personal W-2 employee tax liabilities)

2) add employers payroll liabilities = 
3) add general overhead expenses =!
4) add vehicle expenses =
5) add profit =


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

TM6.5 said:


> I am a retired business owner as well.
> 40 years of selling labor services.
> 
> I agree what I offered may be confusing.
> ...


LoL

total income
minus
expenses to generate the income
equals
profit


smh


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

UberBastid said:


> LoL
> 
> total income
> minus
> ...


You got it … employee wage expenses are not profit!
Wall Street is betting on this!!


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

TM6.5 said:


> You got it … employee wage expenses are not profit!
> Wall Street is betting on this!!


Right.
Thats why they call Wage Expense .... EXPENSES.

Income - expenses = profit
.


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

UberBastid said:


> Right.
> Thats why they call Wage Expense .... EXPENSES.
> 
> Income - expenses = profit
> .


Yes sir


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

TM6.5 said:


> I agree what I offered may be confusing.


Thank you.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

Look it can be as simple or as difficult as you want it to be. Every driver has different needs/priorities/cares.

I only care about earnings per mile driven, including dead miles. I don't care about my time. Why, because my time is valuable, if I don't have free time to drive I would not be driving. If I can't make what I consider a reasonable earnings per mile driven then it is not worth the wear and tear on my vehicle and I would not drive.

I managed to make a decent taxable profit last year, I think my thought process works just fine.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

FLKeys said:


> I don't care about my time. Why, because my time is valuable, if I don't have free time to drive I would not be driving.


That's refreshing. I tend to put stuff hourly in here to justify it as it seems to be the bottom line for most people, but I feel the same. Having too much time on my hands is why I started in the first place.

I leave thinking maybe I'll do $200 that day and at some point I check my numbers and go "That's $245 and I've spent about $40 in gas ... Looks good, I'm going home." Maybe it takes five hours on a good bonus day. Maybe it takes seven. I don't really care and if one day I do care, I can quit for the day.

I've been self-employed or a business owner for 38 years. This wasn't supposed to be as complicated as those other things for me. I just go, make money, and when I stop making money after my expenses (which of course I keep track of) then I'll quit. If anybody else wants to make it more complicated than that with a specific formula, that's their situation, as you say.

But for Pete's sake if you must have a formula, at least let it make sense.


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Vagabond1 said:


> That's refreshing. I tend to put stuff hourly in here to justify it as it seems to be the bottom line for most people, but I feel the same. Having too much time on my hands is why I started in the first place.
> 
> I leave thinking maybe I'll do $200 that day and at some point I check my numbers and go "That's $245 and I've spent about $40 in gas ... Looks good, I'm going home." Maybe it takes five hours. Maybe it takes seven. I don't really care and if one day I do care, I can quit for the day.
> 
> ...


I was talking to a self-employed house cleaner the other day. She has a daily gross revenue benchmark of $300.00 a day. She has been doing this for years. (1) hour of traveling and (7) hours on the job.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

TM6.5 said:


> Hi old timer.
> 
> I hate the mileage metric as a stand alone income revenue source. (It is messed up)
> 
> ...


that reminds me of an old joke
A guy wakes up one winter morning, shivering. It seems his furnace has stopped working. So he calls a repairman who comes right over

He walks around the furnace taking in every detail and then he kicks the furnace, and it starts working He bills the owner $200. The owner is furious, $200 for a minute of the repairman’s time. “I could have done that myself” He demands an itemized bill
So the repairman

Kicking the furnace (Labor)= $1
Knowing where to kick and how hard = $199
Total = $200


That repairman doesn’t get paid for his time he gets paid for results. And so do we. We get paid when we deliver folks from point A to B.


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

oldfart said:


> that reminds me of an old joke
> A guy wakes up one winter morning, shivering. It seems his furnace has stopped working. So he calls a repairman who comes right over
> 
> He walks around the furnace taking in every detail and then he kicks the furnace, and it starts working He bills the owner $200. The owner is furious, $200 for a minute of the repairman’s time. “I could have done that myself” He demands an itemized bill
> ...


this is great!


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## Rideshare observer (Mar 31, 2019)

After first few weeks of struggle I set up acceptance rules: 
1. Never accept a delivery estimated below $6
2. Estimated earning / Estimated miles ratio: for estimated earning $6-&12, ratio must be greater than 2.5. for. $12+, ratio must be greater than 2. for $20+, ratio must be greater than 1.5. 
Since then, I no longer received Uber’s minimal wage compensation


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

TM6.5 said:


> this is a great time for others to share their salary and pricing structure.
> If there is a better program that meets a living income needs and covers overhead please speak up!


MBA program from Wharton.


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## Alantc (Jun 15, 2018)

Pays the bills and makes a little profit


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

TM6.5 said:


> well let’s break down the cost per mile
> 
> 1) depreciation physical not tax world if you buy a new vehicle @ $25,000.00 and drive it for 250,000 miles with out interest it = ($.10) a mile (no interest)
> 2) fuel: $4.50 a gallon @ 20 mpg = ($.23)
> ...


Is this for an Audi A6?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

TM6.5 said:


> I had a plumber in to replace a faucet for me the other day it cost me $1.00 a minute


Relevance?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

TM6.5 said:


> I was talking to a self-employed house cleaner the other day. She has a daily gross revenue benchmark of $300.00 a day. She has been doing this for years. (1) hour of traveling and (7) hours on the job.


That's awesome! I cleaned houses myself for a few months two years ago. It was back busting work for an older guy. I sweated daily and had sore muscles for two weeks.

Sitting in a padded seat in a climate controlled bubble spinning a wheel and pushing some pedals: way easier so I fully *expect* to earn less!


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> Relevance?





Heisenburger said:


> That's awesome! I cleaned houses myself for a few months two years ago. It was back busting work for an older guy. I sweated daily and had sore muscles for two weeks.
> 
> Sitting in a padded seat in a climate controlled bubble spinning a wheel and pushing some pedals: way easier so I fully *expect* to earn less!


I agree.

If your personal gross earnings income needs: (wages - benefits and taxes) needs = ($5,000.00) a month @ (9600) minutes a month one’s minutes rate for personal income = ($.52)


Heisenburger said:


> Relevance?


A plumbers monthly personal living needs = $5,000.00 / (9600) minutes a month = $.52 a minute.


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