# Californias war on Uber and Lyft will not end well.



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/californias-war-on-uber-and-lyft-will-not-end-well


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Interesting they use a full time driver as an example. I wonder if they knew less than 20% of uber drivers do it full time......


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> Interesting they use a full time driver as an example. I wonder if they knew less than 20% of uber drivers do it full time......


And where did they get that a driver is entitled to 64 hours of sick pay?

Employees only get 24 hours per year unless something has changed.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

AB5 is a very poorly thought out and very poorly executed legislation, it's an absolute disaster.

It has (and will continue to) screw up many genuine independent contractors who intend on continuing to run their own independent business. Even with contractors in industries like entertainment, which have also been adversely affected, many one-person independent contractors provide their services to multiple studios/customers.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Mash Ghasem said:


> AB5 is a very poorly thought out and very poorly executed legislation, it's an absolute disaster.
> 
> It has (and will continue to) screw up many genuine independent contractors who intend on continuing to run their own independent business. Even with contractors in industries like entertainment, which have also been adversely affected, many one-person independent contractors provide their services to multiple studios/customers.


All laws ever written have those that benefit and those that are negatively affected.

That's just the way laws work.

However, AB-5 can be and is being finetuned for those professions that are genuine independent contractors.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

observer said:


> All laws ever written have those that benefit and those that are negatively affected.
> 
> That's just the way laws work.
> 
> However, AB-5 can be and is being finetuned for those professions that are genuine independent contractors.


It should also address rideshare drivers who do desire to remain IC!


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## everythingsuber (Sep 29, 2015)

SHalester said:


> Interesting they use a full time driver as an example. I wonder if they knew less than 20% of uber drivers do it full time......


Think they have established the overwhelming majority of work is done by drivers working in excess of 35 hours a week and the majority of drivers Uber claim as drivers are drivers who drive minimal hours or not at all.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

observer said:


> And where did they get that a driver is entitled to 64 hours of sick pay?
> 
> Employees only get 24 hours per year unless something has changed.


My last real job I got 72 hours sick time per year and 240 hours vacation per year plus paid holidays it worked out to just under 400 hours a year.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Mole said:


> My last real job I got 72 hours sick time per year and 240 hours vacation per year plus paid holidays it worked out to just under 400 hours a year.


California state minimum is 24 hours per year. Uber doesn't pay that, do you think they'll pay 72? 

Vacation pay in California is voluntary on the part of the employer as are paid holidays.

&#129300;

400 hours off?

When did you work?:biggrin:


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

observer said:


> California state minimum is 24 hours per year. Uber doesn't pay that, do you think they'll pay 72? :smiles:
> 
> Vacation pay in California is voluntary on the part of the employer as are paid holidays.
> 
> ...


On average I put in 2,700 hours in a year Lott's of overtime.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

everythingsuber said:


> Think they have established the overwhelming majority of work is done by drivers working in excess of 35 hours a week


can you link that? Latest from Uber, which I believe was the sexual attack report was 80% of Uber drivers are online 30 or less hours. Haven't seen any stat/article that refutes that.


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

observer said:


> And where did they get that a driver is entitled to 64 hours of sick pay?
> 
> Employees only get 24 hours per year unless something has changed.


I get 26 days of PTO a year (shrug). Can slice out sick time however from that figure. But I would rather slug to my desk at home and work sick than clock it as a sick day .

64 hours does seem excessive as that is a week and half of sick time. Unless it can also be utilized for general PTO as well.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

SHalester said:


> can you link that? Latest from Uber, which I believe was the sexual attack report was 80% of Uber drivers are online 30 or less hours. Haven't seen any stat/article that refutes that.


It might be the 80/20 rule. 20% of the drivers do 80% of the work?


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

DriverMark said:


> I get 26 days of PTO a year (shrug). Can slice out sick time however from that figure. But I would rather slug to my desk at home and work sick than clock it as a sick day .
> 
> 64 hours does seem excessive as that is a week and half of sick time. Unless it can also be utilized for general PTO as well.


Yea. Same here. If I had to stay home because I was sick that meant I was SICK!!!


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

goneubering said:


> . 20% of the drivers do 80% of the work?


.....very very doubtful. But points for creativity.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

I get 84 hours sick a year and 168 hours of vacation. I almost never take the sick time so I have roughly 1000 hours banked. These days there isn't much point in taking any vacation either, what am I going to do at home?


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

"Classifying ride-sharing drivers as employees will likely .............[lead] to more expensive rides for customers. "

.................and the complaint is____________________________________________________?


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> "Classifying ride-sharing drivers as employees will likely .............[lead] to more expensive rides for customers. "
> 
> .................and the complaint is____________________________________________________?


Prices have to go up eventually but some of us don't want to be employees.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

goneubering said:


> Prices have to go up eventually


.................and if left to their own devices, neither F*ub*a*r* nor Gr*yft* will give you the first penny of it. In fact, both have jacked up their fees to the customer, but the drivers get nothing.



goneubering said:


> but some of us don't want to be employees.


I do not, either, but, the net-to-driver must be triple what it is now. If this is what it takes to compel those two shyster companies to pay it, so be it.


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## IthurstwhenIP (Jan 12, 2018)

Calling rideshare a job is like legalizing overtime pay for sleeping in, or a bonus for multiple orgasms


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> .................and if left to their own devices, neither F*ub*a*r* nor Gr*yft* will give you the first penny of it. In fact, both have jacked up their fees to the customer, but the drivers get nothing.
> 
> I do not, either, but, the net-to-driver must be triple what it is now. If this is what it takes to compel those two shyster companies to pay it, so be it.


If they paid us triple wouldn't their prices be higher than a taxi?


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

IthurstwhenIP said:


> Calling rideshare a job is like legalizing overtime pay for sleeping in, or a bonus for multiple orgasms


One of the definitions of the noun *job* is "_a task or piece of work, especially one that is paid_" -- so I'd say rideshare can be a job. It's not employment, it's not lucrative, and it's not even perfect, but it's a job.


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## IthurstwhenIP (Jan 12, 2018)

Mash Ghasem said:


> One of the definitions of the noun *job* is "_a task or piece of work, especially one that is paid_" -- so I'd say rideshare can be a job. It's not employment, it's not lucrative, and it's not even perfect, but it's a job.


somlike filling out unemployment docs, or donating blood


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

IthurstwhenIP said:


> somlike filling out unemployment docs, or donating blood


Those are certainly tasks.


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## everythingsuber (Sep 29, 2015)

SHalester said:


> can you link that? Latest from Uber, which I believe was the sexual attack report was 80% of Uber drivers are online 30 or less hours. Haven't seen any stat/article that refutes that.


80% of drivers being on line 30 or less hours is because the overwhelming number of drivers Uber claims to have are no longer actually driving uber just still has them on their books. Those figures were given during the ab5 debate I will have to track down again.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

goneubering said:


> If they paid us triple wouldn't their prices be higher than a taxi?


That would depend on how much Uber and Lyft want to take from each job. Currently, I get sixty some cents the mile plus twenty whatever cents the minute. I would have to look up the numbers, but I get the higher rate for the Capital of Your Nation as I was a twenty per-center on Uber. I get the lower rate on Lyft, as I was a late sign up thereto.

If I drive the cab, I get two-dollars--sixteen the mile. All of that goes to me. I have not had a rate increase in ten years. This is the longest that cabs have gone without one here. To be sure, they can not increase the rates for the cabs here, as it would be economic suicide.

My cab is a 2015 Fusion hybrid. The UberX/Lyft car is a 2014. They are basically the same car.

The tires cost the same on either one.

Brakes all around cost three hundred dollars on either one.

It costs the same thirteen dollars to wash either one.

It costs the same two hundred dollars, parts and labour, to change the light bulbs on either one. (Taking a page from the Chrysler School of Automotive Design, some Rocket Scientist made it so that you must undo the front bumper to change the headlight bulbs).

Cab rates are what the y are for a reason.

In answer to your question, they will at least be the same, although they might be more. They should be more, as cab fares do need to increase.

I do not know about your market, but, in mine, they could charge three dollars the mile and people still would use the service. If keep the bus riders they must, the two companies could retain POOL/Shared at the lower rate, lower the driver and car standards and restrict those sub--standard drivers and cars to POOL:/Shared.


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## NoPool4Me (Apr 16, 2018)

observer said:


> Employees only get 24 hours per year unless something has changed


Depends on where one works... 
The bigger issue I see is that a majority of drivers are part time and like it that way. At least, the ones I talk to.



Another Uber Driver said:


> If keep the bus riders they must, the two companies could retain POOL/Shared at the lower rate, lower the driver and car standards and restrict those sub--standard drivers and cars to POOL:/Shared.


Not much I dislike more about this job than accidentally accepting a pool ride a couple of times in the past.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

NoPool4Me said:


> Not much I dislike more about this job than accidentally accepting a pool ride a couple of times in the past.


The thing about POOL is that in order to make it pay,, you _must_ shuffle. The ideal POOL is a mediocre trip where you haul two and shuffle two. If you do that, the payoff is better than what a cab meter would read. You must learn your market and know which ones you can shuffle and which ones you can not. I will take them in Downtown in P. M. Rush Hour for the entire Rush Hour. Many of the pickups are EXPRESS, or, are even at corners. If you know your streets as I do, you can make an educated guess at the building from which they are coming. You try to set up yourself katty-korner from that entrance. The two minutes expire, "CANCEL-No-SHOW" and add one of @New2This ' memes of someone's chasing the car down the street. Keep in mind that you must actually fetch the first passenger. You shuffle two of the subsequents.

You can not do this on Lyft, as Lyft,, in this market, at least, does not pay for no-shows on Shared. For that reason, I will not accept a Shared unless I am trying to hit a quota. Lyft will really waste your time on a Shared. It thinks nothing of backtracking you ten or fifteen minutes after you have fetched the first passenger. At that point, you must cover the summons. If you get no one, you lose totally.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

observer said:


> Yea. Same here. If I had to stay home because I was sick that meant I was SICK!!!


Yep I'm the same way. I rarely take a sick day, but at the same time, I never come to work with something contagious like a cold. Meanwhile many of my coworkers used a lot of their sick days nursing hangovers or recovering from a gas station burrito.

Before February March 2020 I had all my sick days, all my PTO saved up in a happy little stash pile. Then I end up getting hit with something that burns through all of it, plus having to go on 30 medical leave. I sure hope there's not a Covid-20 coming this winter but in the event there is, I'm stockpiling my income and my new earned PTO and sick days. I already have a very large savings account, but I'd rather not touch that. That's how it stays so large.... that's my retirement.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

NoPool4Me said:


> Depends on where one works...
> The bigger issue I see is that a majority of drivers are part time and like it that way. At least, the ones I talk to.
> 
> 
> Not much I dislike more about this job than accidentally accepting a pool ride a couple of times in the past.


What I meant was the minimum California mandated sick time off is 24 hours per year. This is required of all employers.

The article states it"s 64 hours.

Any company can pay more than 24 hours per year but not less.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Uber and Lyft have a major problem. Their drivers are not generating income during the Corona virus and are now on unemployment. Unemployment is a safety net that is normally paid for by the employer. In this case Lyft and Uber have not paid one cent towards protecting their drivers from a loss of income. That will change as Lyft and Uber are brought into compliance. 

This is a massive wake up call.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Bob Reynolds said:


> That will change as Lyft and Uber are brought into compliance.


not until the varous court cases are decided and maybe only for a bit if AB5 is nullfied due to california ballot proposition that is peculating.


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## NoPool4Me (Apr 16, 2018)

SHalester said:


> not until the varous court cases are decided and maybe only for a bit if AB5 is nullfied due to california ballot proposition that is peculating.


I suspect one of the reasons the state is taking Uber and Lift to court during a pandemic is to strengthen their case when they go after them for back money to repay EDD.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

NoPool4Me said:


> to strenthen their case


...no matter what, I don't want employee status. I know exactly what that means and I pass.


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## NoPool4Me (Apr 16, 2018)

SHalester said:


> ...no matter what, I don't want employee status. I know exactly what that means and I pass.


I fully agree... especially, since my version of full time is likely part time for most. I always stop in between rides to get out and stretch a bit. No accepting of constant pings for me! I'm too old for it and get stiff if I don't move enough. Plus, it's unhealthy to sit too much.

I have zero desire to be forced to take all pings, to be forced to work specific hours, or be forced to work at all. I like being able to work when in the mood... There were many months I never looked at the app. Being a regular employee would never work for me.

In the past, I usually drove part time, but, was just slowly ramping up to my version of full time when covid hit.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

observer said:


> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/californias-war-on-uber-and-lyft-will-not-end-well


Another under-researched, quality-free article from the media. From the article:

_To illustrate, consider a California driver who drives full-time for a single [Transportation Network Company] for 40 hours each week, on average, for 48 weeks per year. Given that a typical Uber driver earns $16.55 per hour (not including tips), our full-time Uber driver can expect to make about $31,776 in compensation from Uber over the course of one year as an independent contractor.

In contrast, if our driver were an employee, Uber would have to pay the employee at least the California minimum wage of $13 per hour. Assuming our driver is paid minimum wage and works the same number of hours as an employee - while taking the full 64 hours of paid sick leave for which the driver is eligible - Uber would pay our driver $25,792 in one year (1,920 hours worked plus 64 hours of paid leave at $13.00 per hour). _

They ignore one thing - expenses. From the $31,776 contractor revenue they claim, the contractor deducts all car expenses including depreciation, gasoline, maintenance, repairs, cleaning and personal insurance. If we were to deduct typical expenses of 30 cents per mile from the claimed $31,776, we would arrive at an annual expenses figure of around $11,000, leaving the driver with approximately $20,700 as a contractor compared with the article's $25,792 as an employee.

In an employer:employee relationship the company's running costs are met by the company, not the employee. The UPS delivery employee does not pay for his gas or pay to put tyres on the truck or rebuild the engine on it, for example.

I think that mainstream journalists should stick to topics they know about, maybe covering the effects of AB5 on contractor journalists, for example. When it comes to investigative reporting in other industries, they simply have very little ability. This is concerning, for much of the public will believe an article simply because it has been published.


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## NoPool4Me (Apr 16, 2018)

The Gift of Fish said:


> much of the public will believe an article simply because it has been published.


Sad, but, true.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Another under-researched, quality-free article from the media. From the article:
> 
> _To illustrate, consider a California driver who drives full-time for a single [Transportation Network Company] for 40 hours each week, on average, for 48 weeks per year. Given that a typical Uber driver earns $16.55 per hour (not including tips), our full-time Uber driver can expect to make about $31,776 in compensation from Uber over the course of one year as an independent contractor.
> 
> ...


I've read several articles in past couple of weeks that are opinions of authors and not facts. Opinions that are wrong.

I think Uber or someone that backs Uber is financing a media campaign.


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## NoPool4Me (Apr 16, 2018)

observer said:


> I think Uber or someone that backs Uber is financing a media campaign.


It could simply be ignorance, but, your thought is more likely in this case.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

observer said:


> I've read several articles in past couple of weeks that are opinions of authors and not facts. Opinions that are wrong.
> 
> I think Uber or someone that backs Uber is financing a media campaign.


Yes, Uberlyft is trying very hard to do that. This article was written by a Casey Given, who describes himself as a member of something called "Liberty Toastmasters Club", which he describes as, "Washington, DC's only speech-giving club specifically tailored to libertarians and conservatives". So there goes any chance of non-bias straight out the window.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

SHalester said:


> ...no matter what, I don't want employee status. I know exactly what that means and I pass.


I hope you are not planning to file for unemployment, social security, disability or medicare based on your Uber and Lyft earnings, that have not contributed one red cent, to these programs while most other employers have paid for them.



The Gift of Fish said:


> Another under-researched, quality-free article from the media. From the article:
> 
> _To illustrate, consider a California driver who drives full-time for a single [Transportation Network Company] for 40 hours each week, on average, for 48 weeks per year. Given that a typical Uber driver earns $16.55 per hour (not including tips), our full-time Uber driver can expect to make about $31,776 in compensation from Uber over the course of one year as an independent contractor.
> 
> ...


This is a complete garbage article. Where did the author come up with "typical expenses of 30 cents per mile"?

If the drivers are going to make less under AB5 then why are Lyft and Uber fighting it?


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Bob Reynolds said:


> I hope you are not planning to file for unemployment


.......your hopes are dashed. I applied 3/28 and have been receiving deposts since than that also include the Fed cheese. Sorry¿

and BTW I have W2 history that covers nearly 40 years, so I'm going with I've paid into the system and my employer of 32 of those years also paid into the system. Next.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

SHalester said:


> .......your hopes are dashed. I applied 3/28 and have been receiving deposts since than that also include the Fed cheese. Sorry¿
> 
> and BTW I have W2 history that covers nearly 40 years, so I'm going with I've paid into the system and my employer of 32 of those years also paid into the system. Next.


So you don't want to be a Uber employee, but you have filed for employee benefits like unemployment which Uber has not paid for.

What's wrong with that logic?


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Bob Reynolds said:


> What's wrong with that logic?


Let me help you. Although it was my intention to file under my 2 RS gigs and even =manually= added them, the system found my last W2 pt job from 12 months ago and used that instead. Fine by me, I earned about the same amount of $$ from that real job as I did with RS.

Now, in calif, any W2 job from last 18 months will be displayed to you; you can select the one you want. I didn't select it at all.

Also keep in mind that W2 job ended almost exactly a year ago and I didn't file then, but well, I don't need it. Only reason I filed, was due to SAH orders and I wanted to see if the $600 per week Fed portion was real. It is. So here I am. Not going online, staying at home, and making more money than I did with RS.

My employer of 32 years paid into the system, I paid SDI and other, so I feel I'm just getting my money back. I hope that is quite ok with you. And if not; well, sod off.


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## NoPool4Me (Apr 16, 2018)

Bob Reynolds said:


> This is a complete garbage article. Where did the author come up with "typical expenses of 30 cents per mile"?
> 
> If the drivers are going to make less under AB5 then why are Lyft and Uber fighting it?


Agree about that article being incorrect.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

SHalester said:


> Let me help you. Although it was my intention to file under my 2 RS gigs and even =manually= added them, the system found my last W2 pt job from 12 months ago and used that instead. Fine by me, I earned about the same amount of $$ from that real job as I did with RS.
> 
> Now, in calif, any W2 job from last 18 months will be displayed to you; you can select the one you want. I didn't select it at all.
> 
> ...


So now the employer of your "W2 job ended almost exactly a year ago" is being charged for your unemployment. Their rates will go up while you sit at home and don't drive for Uber.

Uber gets a free ride while your previous employer gets stuck with the bill.

Swell, real swell.


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## NoPool4Me (Apr 16, 2018)

Bob Reynolds said:


> So now the employer of your "W2 job ended almost exactly a year ago" is being charged for your unemployment. Their rates will go up while you sit at home and don't drive for Uber.
> 
> Uber gets a free ride while your previous employer gets stuck with the bill.
> 
> Swell, real swell.


The previous employer will likely deny the claim once it comes in and CA will likely switch it to PUA.. I also expect the gig company's to be charged by the states. That should be yet another law suit.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

During this time of historically high unemployment, it would take a complete fool to not understand why we have unemployment, FICA and other workplace benefits and deductions in place. Those systems are put in place to protect the worker during a period of economic downturn or during a period when the worker can no longer earn a living to pay for needed expenses like food, shelter and medical.

Right now hundreds of thousands of Uber and Lyft drivers have filed for unemployment. The government has decided to pay these drivers because the alternative is worse. However Uber and Lyft have not yet paid one cent into the system. You can believe they are going to get the bill. Exhibit A will be the amount of unemployment dollars that have been paid out to Uber and Lyft drivers.

The interesting thing is that if Uber and Lyft had been treating their drivers as employees even after AB5; those employees would be fully covered for unemployment, Social Security and Medicare and this would not be an issue. In other words they should have had basic workers rights and benefits just like at any other company.

They can fight AB5 until the cows come home. This pandemic only solidifies the reason that AB5 was put into place and why Uber, Lyft and the other "freeloaders" that did not put a system in place to cover their workers will now get the bill.



NoPool4Me said:


> The previous employer will likely deny the claim once it comes in and CA will likely switch it to PUA.. I also expect the gig company's to be charged by the states. That should be yet another law suit.


In this case, the previous employer can not deny the claim. The only thing they can do is to offer a job to the claimant. If the claimant refuses the job, then the unemployment gets cut off.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> That would depend on how much Uber and Lyft want to take from each job. Currently, I get sixty some cents the mile plus twenty whatever cents the minute. I would have to look up the numbers, but I get the higher rate for the Capital of Your Nation as I was a twenty per-center on Uber. I get the lower rate on Lyft, as I was a late sign up thereto.
> 
> If I drive the cab, I get two-dollars--sixteen the mile. All of that goes to me. I have not had a rate increase in ten years. This is the longest that cabs have gone without one here. To be sure, they can not increase the rates for the cabs here, as it would be economic suicide.
> 
> ...


Wow. Thx! Pool should be declared dead and gone in my opinion.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Bob Reynolds said:


> I hope you are not planning to file for unemployment, social security, disability or medicare based on your Uber and Lyft earnings, that have not contributed one red cent, to these programs while most other employers have paid for them.


Uh, separate from any other point you're trying to make, you're a bit off here. Based on Uber and Lyft earnings a person has every right to file for social security, disability, and perhaps even medicare, because although the employer did not pay into the system (and they only contribute 50% when they do pay in) the IC paid in. The IC paid both the employee portion of SS as well as the employer portion.

Just sayin'.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Bob Reynolds said:


> "W2 job ended almost exactly a year ago" is being charged for your unemployment.


you did a great job of reading. So, yes, what you are saying is correct. I COULD have filed a year ago, but didn't as I didn't need it and it wouldn't have amounted to much. Blame Calif EDD, not me. I didn't select what was displayed and added my 2 driving gigs.

So, your complaint is with EDD not me.

Hey, have a nice day.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

observer said:


> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/californias-war-on-uber-and-lyft-will-not-end-well


Drivers average $16.55 per hour BEFORE tips? That writer is full of shit.



Mash Ghasem said:


> AB5 is a very poorly thought out and very poorly executed legislation, it's an absolute disaster.
> 
> It has (and will continue to) screw up many genuine independent contractors who intend on continuing to run their own independent business. Even with contractors in industries like entertainment, which have also been adversely affected, many one-person independent contractors provide their services to multiple studios/customers.


Genuine independent contractors aren't affected by AB5.

The problem in this country is that many if not most so-called ICs are misclassified employees.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Genuine independent contractors aren't affected by AB5.


for tone, balance and accuracy nobody is effected by AB5.......yet... AB5 is firmly stuck in the courts and will be for quite a while.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> If I drive the cab, I get two-dollars--sixteen the mile. All of that goes to me. I have not had a rate increase in ten years. This is the longest that cabs have gone without one here. To be sure, they can not increase the rates for the cabs here, as it would be economic suicide.


If you compare Uber rates with taxi rates in various markets across the US, you'll see there are plenty of markets with dirt cheap Uber fares (or at least dirt cheap driver pay rates) and taxi rates that are higher than DC.

Orlando taxis charge around $2.50 per mile while Uber drivers are paid a pathetic 50 cents per mile and 7 cents per minute give or take a penny or two.




SHalester said:


> for tone, balance and accuracy nobody is effected by AB5..


That's incorrect. You and more than 200,000 other California rideshare drivers have already been affected by AB5.

Look at the major changes Uber has put in place such as showing destinations and going back to a "percentage". Uber wouldn't have made those changes without AB5's existence.



SHalester said:


> AB5 is firmly stuck in the courts and will be for quite a while.


Probably true.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Uber wouldn't have made those changes without AB5's existence.


ok, we are going to play 'split the hair'? We have not directly effected by a court order; no driver in calif has been issued a W4 to fill out. We are not employees as of this writing. 
Yes, Uber removed the AR for all drivers on around the same date. They then slowly rolled out full info pings. Both were done voluntarily by Uber. We also get a tiny raise in the base fee. Tiny.

And you know what? Uber did that to make calif drivers happy. AND it worked. And, one could thank AB5 for that.....indirectly.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

_Tron_ said:


> Uh, separate from any other point you're trying to make, you're a bit off here. Based on Uber and Lyft earnings a person has every right to file for social security, disability, and perhaps even medicare, because although the employer did not pay into the system (and they only contribute 50% when they do pay in) the IC paid in. The IC paid both the employee portion of SS as well as the employer portion.
> 
> Just sayin'.


The fact is Uber has been freeloading off the taxpayers with their rotten pay rates and by not paying FICA, unemployment and workers comp.



Bob Reynolds said:


> This is a complete garbage article. Where did the author come up with "typical expenses of 30 cents per mile"?


You can also ask the writer where he got his $16.55 per hour before tips average driver pay rate.


----------



## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

_Tron_ said:


> Uh, separate from any other point you're trying to make, you're a bit off here. Based on Uber and Lyft earnings a person has every right to file for social security, disability, and perhaps even medicare, because although the employer did not pay into the system (and they only contribute 50% when they do pay in) the IC paid in. The IC paid both the employee portion of SS as well as the employer portion.
> 
> Just sayin'.


Unemployment insurance DOES NOT COME OUT OF SOCIAL SECURITY, DISABILITY OR MEDICARE. Unemployment insurance is a separate premium paid *ONLY* by the *employer*. It is not paid by the employee. The employers premium rate is determined by the amount of unemployment claims paid out. The lower the claims--the lower the rate. This is why employers will fight unemployment claims when they are unjustified.

Uber and Lyft have not paid ONE RED CENT into unemployment. Everyone else is paying the bill except for Uber and Lyft. What's wrong with this picture?



SHalester said:


> you did a great job of reading. So, yes, what you are saying is correct. I COULD have filed a year ago, but didn't as I didn't need it and it wouldn't have amounted to much. Blame Calif EDD, not me. I didn't select what was displayed and added my 2 driving gigs.
> 
> So, your complaint is with EDD not me.
> 
> Hey, have a nice day.


My complaint is with you and people like you that come on here insisting that you don't want to be employees, but you are at the front of the line for employee benefits like unemployment which Uber and Lyft have not paid for.

In fact, you were one of the first to file on March 28, 2020 according to your posts. That was before anyone had even been cleared Uber and Lyft drivers for unemployment benefits. If you don't want to be an employee then don't take the unemployment benefits and expect everyone else to pay for Uber and Lyft's tab.

The reason AB5 was put into place was because Uber and Lyft were not providing these unemployment, worker's comp, FICA and medicare benefits. It took a state law to try to move them into doing what they should have been doing in the first place. And they still fought it. And they are still fighting it while everyone else gets the bill.

Now we have the Corona Virus Pandemic. This is a prime example of why these benefits should have been provided and already in place. Everyone else can't pay for Uber and Lyft. (especially if Uber and Lyft are negatively affecting their business, ie, taxi, ground transportation, rental cars, automobiles, automobile insurance, etc)

Many Uber and Lyft drivers are homeless or on food stamps because they don't even make the minimum wage. They don't have medical insurance. Everyone else is paying for their food stamps and medical care when they can not afford it.

This will not be tied up in court for a long time. The courts are run by the government and right now the government is holding the bag. It's been my experience that government paid judges can see through this nonsense and will put a stop to it in short order. After all they are paid by the government and they don't want to do anything that will upset that apple cart.

Lyft and Uber (and the rest of the freeloaders) will be paying for unemployment insurance (at a very high premium), they will be paying FICA and Medicare and they will be withholding federal and state taxes. You will also be reimbursed for your mileage and you will make at least the minimum wage for the hours you are on the clock.


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## Transportador (Sep 15, 2015)

observer said:


> All laws ever written have those that benefit and those that are negatively affected.
> 
> That's just the way laws work.
> 
> However, AB-5 can be and is being finetuned for those professions that are genuine independent contractors.


And we are all suffering while the fine tuning is going on...wait, is it really going on? LOL


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Bob Reynolds said:


> Unemployment insurance DOES NOT COME OUT OF SOCIAL SECURITY, DISABILITY OR MEDICARE. Unemployment insurance is a separate premium paid *ONLY* by the *employer*. It is not paid by the employee. The employers premium rate is determined by the amount of unemployment claims paid out. The lower the claims--the lower the rate. This is why employers will fight unemployment claims when they are unjustified.
> 
> Uber and Lyft have not paid ONE RED CENT into unemployment. Everyone else is paying the bill except for Uber and Lyft. What's wrong with this picture?


Correct, but you missed my point, which did not mention unemployment insurance or premiums. Since you're yelling now I'm not going to bother making it again, because at this point you are likely so entrenched in your position it would be a waste of time.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Transportador said:


> And we are all suffering while the fine tuning is going on...wait, is it really going on? LOL


Depends on if you're waiting for drivers to be finetuned or some other profession.

Drivers won't be made independent contractors through AB-5. Uber drivers were specifically not excluded from the law.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Bob Reynolds said:


> Unemployment insurance DOES NOT COME OUT OF SOCIAL SECURITY, DISABILITY OR MEDICARE. Unemployment insurance is a separate premium paid *ONLY* by the *employer*. It is not paid by the employee. The employers premium rate is determined by the amount of unemployment claims paid out. The lower the claims--the lower the rate. This is why employers will fight unemployment claims when they are unjustified.
> 
> Uber and Lyft have not paid ONE RED CENT into unemployment. Everyone else is paying the bill except for Uber and Lyft. What's wrong with this picture?


I think you're lumping things together.

Drivers are not filing for Unemployment insurance. 
That system is for W2 workers and is functioning as it should.

Drivers are filing for PUA for ICs, which is temporary and separate from UI.
As you said, the government decided to offer this "bailout" for ICs, since, in their eyes it seemed better then the alternative.
No red cent from RS needed.
Drivers didn't really deserve this bailout, but yeah, I'll take the free money.
It's always been my policy to accept tips.

You sound like the ones that look up Uber's cut after every ride, then get all worked up.
There is so much concern that Uber/Lyft is getting away with things and gaming the system.
Who's fault is that?
If the government didn't heed the warnings or do homework of what will eventually come with allowing RS to walk all over them, then that's on them.
Now it's on them to clean up the mess they created.



Nats121 said:


> Drivers average $16.55 per hour BEFORE tips? That writer is full of shit.


I agree. That number sounds low.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Bob Reynolds said:


> but you are at the front of the line for employee benefits like unemployment which Uber and Lyft have not paid for.


I applied for the $600 only. Not one single employer paid into THAT, so your entire case/debate/argument is without merit, imho. I hope that is ok.


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Orlando taxis charge around $2.50 per mile while Uber drivers are paid a pathetic 50 cents per mile and 7 cents per minute give or take a penny or two.


What are the customers paying to Uber or Lyft for a ride?

The funny thing about Orlando, Florida is that it is probably the only market in the U.S. of A. where the cabs are still beating out the TNCs. This situation drove Uber to launch Uber Taxi, there, although they use the old Rocket Science formula of taking twenty per-cent from the drivers. As a result, drivers will not accept an Uber Taxi ping if the hotels or Disney World are moving. @Stevie The magic Unicorn hacks in that market, so he has one of the better insights into it.


----------



## moJohoJo (Feb 19, 2017)

observer said:


> All laws ever written have those that benefit and those that are negatively affected.
> 
> That's just the way laws work.
> 
> However, AB-5 can be and is being finetuned for those professions that are genuine independent contractors.


No driver in the World who works like a slave and gets treated like s%#^ is an contractor


----------



## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

SHalester said:


> I applied for the $600 only. Not one single employer paid into THAT, so your entire case/debate/argument is without merit, imho. I hope that is ok.


And did you get the "$600 only"? I don't think so. You can't get the $600 without the other part. Nice try though.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Bob Reynolds said:


> And did you get the "$600 only"?


You are not following along. I get $666 per week. Kid you not, that is the number. and hopefully you know what it can represent to many many people. Anyway: so yeah, my W2 job from 12 months ago nets me a whopping $66 per week. WooHoo. At that amount I'm sure the world will keep spinning. You are now caught up. Next.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> What are the customers paying to Uber or Lyft for a ride?
> 
> The funny thing about Orlando, Florida is that it is probably the only market in the U.S. of A. where the cabs are still beating out the TNCs. This situation drove Uber to launch Uber Taxi, there, although they use the old Rocket Science formula of taking twenty per-cent from the drivers. As a result, drivers will not accept an Uber Taxi ping if the hotels or Disney World are moving. @Stevie The magic Unicorn hacks in that market, so he has one of the better insights into it.


I don't know what the drivers are charged in Orlando or any other part of Florida.

It's funny you ask that question, because in 2018, Florida was one of a handful of states in which Uber and Lyft added insult to injury by raising pax fares but keeping driver pay rates the same or increasing them by a laughable amount.

There used to be a website that listed Uber fares from all over the US but probably due to pressure from Uber (maybe Uber bought them out and shut it down) they suddenly disappeared last year.

That site was a good resource for finding out what drivers are paid all over the country by simply subtracting 25% from the listed fares. Once Florida and the other markets raised fares in 2018 while keeping driver pay rates the same, the 25% formula was rendered useless for those markets.



Taxi2Uber said:


> I agree. That number sounds low.


Are you serious?

If $16.55 per hour BEFORE tips was low, Uber wouldn't be losing anywhere near the 100%+ drivers they lose every year.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> If $16.55 per hour BEFORE tips was low, Uber wouldn't be losing anywhere near the 100%+ drivers they lose every year.


Is it near "100%+" now? LOL 
Uber makes up numbers, but not you, right? Oh no, not you. LMAO
If only there were actual data.....nah, you don't need those.
Rave on.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Taxi2Uber said:


> Is it near "100%+" now? LOL
> Uber makes up numbers, but not you, right? Oh no, not you. LMAO
> If only there were actual data.....nah, you don't need those.
> Rave on.


First of all you don't know where the $16.55 number came from. It's doubtful it was supplied by Uber.

Most likely it came from Harry Campbell the Rideshare Guy and his driver survey.

Uber themselves acknowledged a 60% turnover rate after 6 months. A 2016-17 study from a California university (Stanford I think) came up with the 96% turnover rate that's widely quoted all over the web and the media. I'd be surprised if the turnover rate was less than 100% now with all of the pay cuts that have occured since the Stanford study.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Another Uber Driver said:


> What are the customers paying to Uber or Lyft for a ride?
> 
> The funny thing about Orlando, Florida is that it is probably the only market in the U.S. of A. where the cabs are still beating out the TNCs. This situation drove Uber to launch Uber Taxi, there, although they use the old Rocket Science formula of taking twenty per-cent from the drivers. As a result, drivers will not accept an Uber Taxi ping if the hotels or Disney World are moving. @Stevie The magic Unicorn hacks in that market, so he has one of the better insights into it.


Something that you have to understand is that there's time and places where accepting a taxi fare through ANY dispatch service is bad.

Concerts,
Events,
Pro sports games..

Any of these situations your worse off having a fare that your looking for rather than just the first person waving you down. Even if the money is equal, In any of these situations all my dispatch apps/programs/hardware go off immediately.

Then you have situations where i believe that I could get a taxi fare close by soon, soon enough that i'd rather not pay uber a commission.

Then you have situations where i've been waiting at a taxi queue and don't want to leave the taxi queue.

And lastly you have situations where It's busy enough on uber that UberTaxi is actually ordered (or conversely slow enough that i'll take the first ping that comes to me even if it IS an ubertaxi ping.

What you have is a situation where.... i almost never take ubertaxi pings.

So...

If business is busy,
but not busy enough,
I'm not at Disney
or I've been waiting a really long time,

I might take an uber taxi ping.
Because it's better than nothing at all.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> First of all you don't know where the $16.55 number came from. It's doubtful it was supplied by Uber.
> 
> Most likely it came from Harry Campbell the Rideshare Guy and his driver survey.
> 
> Uber themselves acknowledged a 60% turnover rate after 6 months. A 2016-17 study from a California university (Stanford I think) came up with the 96% turnover rate that's widely quoted all over the web and the media. I'd be surprised if the turnover rate was less than 100% now with all of the pay cuts that have occured since the Stanford study.


I know it won't matter to you or your narrative but....

That $16.55 is likely accurate (I'm not bothering to look into it), given the other numbers that have been made available by Uber in the past. 
The $16.55 number is the average, which includes numbers from drivers that don't know what they're doing.
Anyone with half a brain, in that market, $16.55 is low.

That 96% number that many refer to has been misinterpreted and proven incorrect, and is a perfect example of, if you say something enough times, it becomes fact for many people. The actual number, at the time, was somewhere in the 75% range, but it doesn't matter, because tomorrow you or someone else will use the 96% and it will continue to be widely accepted.
Fake News at it's finest.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Something that you have to understand is that there's time and places where accepting a taxi fare through ANY dispatch service is bad.
> 
> Concerts,
> Events,
> ...


..............absolutely..........................Those are all NSP Clubs. You wave off fifty people who are trying to hail you looking for your assigned passenger, whom you never find. One reason why I always drive the cab and not the Uber/Lyft car for big events here (and we have many.....or we _used_ to) is that I am not going to try to find someone in crowds of people for cab rates, why would I do it for Uber/Lyft rates; surge/Prime Time or not? This goes double given the Charlotte Surge that Lyft and Uber pay. If I am driving my cab, my customer is the first one that I see who has his hand in the air. Like you, I ignore the call assignment system. Back when we had real dispatch, I just kept the microphone on the hook and my mouth closed.

If I were on the microphone, I used to announce, "Nationals Park needs a cab for Joe, Susan or Tom, PICK 'EM UP!". I then punched the ticket and threw it into the stack. Most of the time, those people were going to jump into the first thing that they saw, anyhow.

The funny thing is that some of these guys do have their applications ON. If I am leaving Nationals Park with girlfriend, we will go to the cab stand, but it is rare that any cabs are there. I will pull up Uber Taxi or Curb (UberX/Lyft are on at least 2,3 surge/Prime Time, which makes that fare more than a cab). I always get a cab immediately.

If girlfriend is not with me, often I will park the cab on Capitol Hill and walk to the park. It is not far. By the time that I get back to it, some of the crowd has ventured that far from the park. They see my getting stuff out of the trunk and will want the cab. If I take only one job, usually I get enough to pay for the hot dogs and the Coca-Cola®, at least.



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Then you have situations where i believe that I could get a taxi fare close by soon, soon enough that i'd rather not pay uber a commission.


Those dummies are doing it all wrong, down there. Here, the customer pays a two dollar user fee. The driver gets the whole meter plus whatever the customer tips.



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Then you have situations where i've been waiting at a taxi queue and don't want to leave the taxi queue.


It is rare that I will work a stand here. Under normal circumstances, I can get away with that as there are street hails on corners everywhere. I suspect that this is less the case in Orlando, Florida.


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## Sgt Donny Donowitz (May 2, 2020)

Bob Reynolds said:


> If the drivers are going to make less under AB5 then why are Lyft and Uber fighting it?


Uber and Lyft couldn't give a rat's ass if drivers make more or less under AB5.
They're extremely concerned that their respective companies will be on the hook for a gazillion employees, and the expenses that entails. It would mean instant death for these companies because their entire business model is built on the foundation of drivers being IC.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

SHalester said:


> You are not following along. I get $666 per week. Kid you not, that is the number. and hopefully you know what it can represent to many many people. Anyway: so yeah, my W2 job from 12 months ago nets me a whopping $66 per week. WooHoo. At that amount I'm sure the world will keep spinning. You are now caught up. Next.


LOL

And here you had me fooled. I thought you were actually a driver.


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

Democrats tanked the economy with draconian shutdowns that caused 14.7% unemployment, and weve got 70k plus dead, japan has 2.5% unemployment and less than 700 deaths without a draconian lock down. Now democrats are claiming they are saving us with Ab5 with the mess they created in the first place.

AB5 has already cost thousands of jobs from interpreters to artists to cameramen in CA, so uber has to win this case if not they wont make us employees as it will set a precedent for corrupt democrats to make every state adopt ab5 and it will cost them too much..

So like tesla uber and lyft they would rather leave the state than deal with tyranny...........And Ca and NY actually have better rates per mile/min then many other places. This whole mess is just a sick PR stunt by democrat nutjobs that want a good 5 second sound byte. 

And no I'm not a republican either and I was furious with Trump when he almost started a war with Iran. Both parties have lost their minds.

This whole mess could be fixed if they just passed a minimum rate per mile, no need to lose your independence and pay way more in taxes and Obamacare fees because you cant deduct your miles.


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## Sgt Donny Donowitz (May 2, 2020)

dnlbaboof said:


> Democrats tanked the economy with draconian shutdowns that caused 14.7% unemployment, and weve got 70k plus dead, japan has 2.5% unemployment and less than 700 deaths without a draconian lock down. Now democrats are claiming they are saving us with Ab5 with the mess they created in the first place.
> 
> AB5 has already cost thousands of jobs from interpreters to artists to cameramen in CA, so uber has to win this case if not they wont make us employees as it will set a precedent for corrupt democrats to make every state adopt ab5 and it will cost them too much..
> 
> ...


Uber's core foundational business model is to flood the streets with IC "partners" who are willing to drive for the least amount of money.

Uber exploits cheap labor, and skirts its tax responsibility. Uber shifts all of the risk, liability, and expenses to its "partners"

100 years ago, labor laws were put in place to protect the vulnerable people from these types of exploits. People like Uber drivers.

Uber should have been crushed years ago. The only reason they weren't, is because they had so much cash, to bribe so many lawmakers.

That is all coming to an end.

This pandemic has exposed how precarious and vulnerable gig workers are.

There are only two things that are Innovative about Uber.

1. They Innovated software which was designed for, and should have been sold to taxi companies.
2. They were very Innovative on how it skirts all regulations and laws.

One thing is clear about Uber. It doesn't lift people out of poverty, it keeps people in poverty.


----------



## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> During this time of historically high unemployment, it would take a complete fool to not understand why we have unemployment, FICA and other workplace benefits and deductions in place. Those systems are put in place to protect the worker during a period of economic downturn or during a period when the worker can no longer earn a living to pay for needed expenses like food, shelter and medical.
> 
> Right now hundreds of thousands of Uber and Lyft drivers have filed for unemployment. The government has decided to pay these drivers because the alternative is worse. However Uber and Lyft have not yet paid one cent into the system. You can believe they are going to get the bill. Exhibit A will be the amount of unemployment dollars that have been paid out to Uber and Lyft drivers.
> 
> ...


I have not filed for unemployment. I have savings enough to live off of despite not having unemployment benefits. If all of the multiple gig companies I've been working for in the last 4 years had to pay into unemployment and all the other costs associated with employees, I might not have had a job at all, or at least not as good of one. In turn, I would have made a lot less money, and thus had less savings, and thus needed more government assistance.

The fact that gig workers are eligible for benefits that have not been paid into is unfair, and I'm not arguing in favor of that, but the fact these benefits are being deployed is not proof that the benefits are overall a good idea. In fact, the economy is going to have a very hard time reopening until August 1 because the expanded unemployment benefits are going to discourage most people from going back to work now that they are used to making more money by not working at all.

Assuming benefits come out of wages, unlike the current stimulus which amounts to magic government money... to a great extent, employee benefits like health insurance, unemployment, and retirement benefits are just taking money from the employee and then giving it back in a different form. A worker can use his own money or savings for all of these things. When mandated by the government, it is basically saying that no one can be trusted to save their own money in case of hardships, so the government will do it for you. It tends to be a bum deal for those who are more financially responsible, amounting to large interest free loans to the government and lack of personal choice in finance managing and the risks they are willing to take.

I know, you're thinking, but if the companies provided these benefits on top of the usual pay, you'd have "more" money. Well, that money has to come from somewhere. The costs are passed down to workers and it costs in terms of both flexibility and wages. Those who work the less flexible hours might make more than others in the past, but probably at the cost of less workers being allowed on the platform. It is easy to say you will be better off, but that is the gamble that you are retained when it could be that you will be the one out of work altogether.


----------



## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

observer said:


> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/californias-war-on-uber-and-lyft-will-not-end-well


The Feds and every state should be at war with Uber and Lyft, they are 2 shady companies that represent some of the worst companies in US history as far as the way they treat their drivers, horrible greed beyond what I have seen in all my years, and the customers who would jump in your car and say with a big smile "We love Uber or Lyft" and not tip knowing full well the drivers are not making a decent wage are just as bad.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

goneubering said:


> thought you were actually a driver.


maybe you are reading something else? Been a driver since August; last W2 job ended exactly a year ago. Right this second and since 3/21 not driving. Making more on UI and Fed cheese and being safe. Now YOU are caught up.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

SHalester said:


> maybe you are reading something else? Been a driver since August; last W2 job ended exactly a year ago. Right this second and since 3/21 not driving. Making more on UI and Fed cheese and being safe. Now YOU are caught up.


You had me until the 666 joke.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

goneubering said:


> You had me until the 666 joke


mark of the beast did u in? :inlove:


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## simont23 (Jul 24, 2019)

I noticed the war on Uber didn't stop Travis(remember him?) from spending $43 million on a house in LA! How can Uber people afford stuff like that? Was he a contractor or employee?


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## Nitedriver (Jun 19, 2014)

*"These Violent Delights Have Violent Ends"*


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## moJohoJo (Feb 19, 2017)

Mash Ghasem said:


> AB5 is a very poorly thought out and very poorly executed legislation, it's an absolute disaster.
> 
> It has (and will continue to) screw up many genuine independent contractors who intend on continuing to run their own independent business. Even with contractors in industries like entertainment, which have also been adversely affected, many one-person independent contractors provide their services to multiple studios/customers.


Ha ha ha nice try Corporate employee but most of us are not stupid enough to believe your a driver, anyways .


----------



## Chocoholic (Aug 7, 2018)

OK, I didn't read the whole thread, so if this has been covered already, sorry, but not sorry.

In the comparison of pay between contractor and employee, did everyone else notice that the author conveniently left out the fact that Uber and Lyft would have to pay all the expenses to the driver? Now, let him go back and compare the whole picture - contractor's net after expemses vs. employee's pay after reimbursed expenses. Then, how does it compare????

Having said that, there are a bunch of problems with AB-5. Even the authors of the bill have stated so. But that's also the nature of legislation. First pass a law to address a perceived problem. Then, amend the law to address the unintended consequences. There are a lot of them with this law.

Disclaimer: I take no position, for or against, ab-5. I'm waiting to see how it plays out. But, I prefer to be an IC over an employee, generally speaking, as long as I can earn a fair and reasonable amount for the work I do.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

moJohoJo said:


> Ha ha ha nice try Corporate employee but most of us are not stupid enough to believe your a driver, anyways .


I am a driver and I have no intentions of being forced into employment with Uber. -o:


----------



## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Trafficat said:


> I have not filed for unemployment. I have savings enough to live off of despite not having unemployment benefits. If all of the multiple gig companies I've been working for in the last 4 years had to pay into unemployment and all the other costs associated with employees, I might not have had a job at all, or at least not as good of one. In turn, I would have made a lot less money, and thus had less savings, and thus needed more government assistance.
> 
> The fact that gig workers are eligible for benefits that have not been paid into is unfair, and I'm not arguing in favor of that, but the fact these benefits are being deployed is not proof that the benefits are overall a good idea. In fact, the economy is going to have a very hard time reopening until August 1 because the expanded unemployment benefits are going to discourage most people from going back to work now that they are used to making more money by not working at all.
> 
> ...


While what you posted may have worked for you in your particular situation; it does not work for MOST Uber and Lyft drivers.

The simple fact that you have to work for multiple companies (probably more than 40 hours a week) to even make a living is an indicator that it may not be working as well as you might think it is for you.

We have minimum wage laws in the country to make sure that employees make no less than the minimum wage. In addition to the minimum wage, companies are required to pay for unemployment insurance, workers comp, half of FICA and half of medicare. The purpose for this is to provide for an employee when that employee is not able to work to pay for food, shelter and medical care. It's a safety net that most people need. In addition it is the law.

Do these costs get deducted out of the worker's pay? At the floor (minimum wage) they do not come out of the worker's pay because there is the absolute minimum that companies are required to pay. That requires that they price their product to cover those expenses as well as all of their other expenses and hopefully have some left over to make a profit.

Keep in mind that Unemployment insurance, FICA and Medicare only benefit you (the worker). They are of no benefit to the company at all. If you don't get these benefits, then you are getting the short end of the stick while the company is actually benefiting by not paying for these benefits.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> While what you posted may have worked for you in your particular situation; it does not work for MOST Uber and Lyft drivers.
> 
> The simple fact that you have to work for multiple companies (probably more than 40 hours a week) to even make a living is an indicator that it may not be working as well as you might think it is for you.
> 
> ...


Except for one problem, minimum wages cause unemployment. Only low wage workers those who get to keep their jobs see a wage increase from say, $8 an hour to $15/hr. The others will see a wage decrease from $8/hr to $0/hr.










https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/MinimumWages.html


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Trafficat said:


> Except for one problem, minimum wages cause unemployment. Only low wage workers those who get to keep their jobs see a wage increase from say, $8 an hour to $15/hr. The others will see a wage decrease from $8/hr to $0/hr.
> 
> View attachment 462746
> 
> ...


The minimum wage is the minimum wage. Employers may pay higher than the minimum wage if they choose to. They can not pay lower than the minimum wage. That is the law and it has been the law for decades. This is nothing new. If an employer can not keep employees by paying the minimum wage then they can raise wages in order to keep those employees if they determine their business can afford to pay more and the employee will accept that higher rate rather than looking for another job. An employee can also choose to stay in a low paying job (as long as it is paying the minimum wage or above) if they choose too. That is how the free market system actually works.

What the poster is talking about with the chart above is a certain small subset of unskilled workers who can not turn out enough productivity to cover the employers minimum wage cost and be a worthwhile employee so that his/her employer can make a profit. (These could be students with no skills or anyone else who just can not produce enough for one reason or another) That subset will always be there. However Uber and Lyft drivers are not part of that unskilled subset and should not be grouped into that subset in an effort to thwart the minimum wage laws because an employer wants to game the system.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> subset of unskilled workers who can not turn out enough productivity to cover the employers minimum wage cost


Yes, those will be unemployed people due to the minimum wage. Then consider the number of jobs that aren't created due to the job not being worth the minimum wage. Why do we get textiles from the far east? Because our cost of labor is too high. My first job paid me $0.50 per hour and I was glad to have it. After I finished sweeping the floor, I'd learn how to run a hardware store. If my employer were forced to pay a high wage, I wouldn't have had that job. I wouldn't have had change in my pocket. I wouldn't have had the discipline to get up early to be at my job. I wouldn't have had the experience in the hardware industry. I was happy to get $0.50 an hour. My employer was happy to pay $0.50 an hour. His customers were happy to have a clean store. That is a free market wage. The only unhappiness was with the bureaucrats.

An employment career can be look at like a ladder. The more productive one is the higher on the ladder they go. The higher on the ladder they go, the more they earn. A minimum wage removes the bottom rung. The higher the minimum wage, the more rungs that are removed. A high minimum wage hurts those the most who it was supposed to help - low wager earners.

Situation #1: If we removed the minimum wage, we'd have higher employment rates and more businesses (like manufacturing jobs). With more jobs and the same number of workers, wages would increase. The more jobs that are created, the higher the average wage would go.

Situation #2: If we raise the minimum wage, jobs would be shipped overseas and those that can't be outsourced will turn to independent contractors. With fewer jobs and the same number of workers, many of the jobs will be minimum wage. The more jobs that are lost, the lower the average wage would go.

Which situation are we in right now?


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

bsliv said:


> Yes, those will be unemployed people due to the minimum wage. Then consider the number of jobs that aren't created due to the job not being worth the minimum wage. Why do we get textiles from the far east? Because our cost of labor is too high. My first job paid me $0.50 per hour and I was glad to have it. After I finished sweeping the floor, I'd learn how to run a hardware store. If my employer were forced to pay a high wage, I wouldn't have had that job. I wouldn't have had change in my pocket. I wouldn't have had the discipline to get up early to be at my job. I wouldn't have had the experience in the hardware industry. I was happy to get $0.50 an hour. My employer was happy to pay $0.50 an hour. His customers were happy to have a clean store. That is a free market wage. The only unhappiness was with the bureaucrats.
> 
> An employment career can be look at like a ladder. The more productive one is the higher on the ladder they go. The higher on the ladder they go, the more they earn. A minimum wage removes the bottom rung. The higher the minimum wage, the more rungs that are removed. A high minimum wage hurts those the most who it was supposed to help - low wager earners.
> 
> ...


The reason we have lost those textile and manufacturing jobs is because there are people in other parts of the world that will work for 50 cents an hour and a bowl of rice. We can not compete with that and we will not compete with that. It has nothing to do with the minimum wage and everything to do with our standard of living and what is costs to live in America. You can't live in American on the $50 a week that these workers make in other parts of the world. Remember there is always someone willing to do something for less money. That does not mean it is good for them or good for you.

The minimum wage is not even a good wage. But it is the absolute floor that workers must be paid in the US. It is below the poverty level and you can not support a family on the minimum wage. Any company that attempts to pay a worker below the minimum wage is stealing from that worker.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> you can not support a family on the minimum wage


And you shouldn't attempt it. A minimum wage job should be a no skill, entry level position. It seems burger flippers want their single income to support a family of five. A minimum wage job should be able to support a high school student living at home.



Bob Reynolds said:


> Any company that attempts to pay a worker below the minimum wage is stealing from that worker.


If a company pays an employee $100 a week but the employee only adds $80 in productivity, I'd say the employee is stealing from the company.

Let the free market determine what a job is worth. Let the free market determine what an employee is worth. If an employee and an employer agree on a number, so be it. If a company wants to run a ride sharing business and they have a source of drivers who get a pension and/or social security and just want to get out the house, let them work for free, if both parties agree to it. Forcing someone to do something is immoral. Forcing someone to pay above market wages will end that job and maybe the business, too. Economic freedom, like all freedoms, should be embraced, not feared or reviled.

If one is truly trying to look out for the low/no skilled worker, there are better ways than by eliminating entry level jobs. Tax breaks are one way. Eliminate taxes on products and services for basic needs. Maybe even tax credits. Maybe even a guaranteed minimum income financed by the taxpayers. Eliminating the minimum wage along with any of these alternatives will create jobs and encourage new businesses. More jobs equal more potential for both employers and employees. More jobs will mean employers will have to compete for employees.

Or, maybe the government should set the wages for everyone. Maybe the government should set the price of products and services for everyone. From each what they can provide and to each what they need. Hmmmm.


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## Sgt Donny Donowitz (May 2, 2020)

Bob Reynolds said:


> The reason we have lost those textile and manufacturing jobs is because there are people in other parts of the world that will work for 50 cents an hour and a bowl of rice. We can not compete with that and we will not compete with that. It has nothing to do with the minimum wage and everything to do with our standard of living and what is costs to live in America. You can't live in American on the $50 a week that these workers make in other parts of the world. Remember there is always someone willing to do something for less money. That does not mean it is good for them or good for you.
> 
> The minimum wage is not even a good wage. But it is the absolute floor that workers must be paid in the US. It is below the poverty level and you can not support a family on the minimum wage. Any company that attempts to pay a worker below the minimum wage is stealing from that worker.


Not enforcing immigration laws, by allowing people who illegally entered the USA to stay, doesn't help the situation either.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

bsliv said:


> And you shouldn't attempt it. A minimum wage job should be a no skill, entry level position. It seems burger flippers want their single income to support a family of five. A minimum wage job should be able to support a high school student living at home. There is no definition of what a minimum wage job should be. The law only requires that all companies pay at least the minimum wage.
> 
> If a company pays an employee $100 a week but the employee only adds $80 in productivity, I'd say the employee is stealing from the company. You could look at it that way. But if an employee is not producing enough they will be fired. That's the way it works.
> 
> ...


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## moJohoJo (Feb 19, 2017)

goneubering said:


> If they paid us triple wouldn't their prices be higher than a taxi?


Not if they reduced the commission they take from a driver . They were doing just fine when they started at taking out a 20 % commission from drivers but they got greedy as more suckers signed up to drive and now they'll take out 80 % from drivers trip proceeds .



SHalester said:


> ...no matter what, I don't want employee status. I know exactly what that means and I pass.


Nice try Uber employee who is writing his post from behind a desk at Uber headquarters .


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

moJohoJo said:


> Nice try Uber employee who is writing his post from behind a desk at Uber headquarters .


ok, I'll accept that. Been said before, I have the same answer. I am around an hour away from the Uber HQ building. So it is possible I'm an employee.
It is also possible aliens put us here.


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