# When their shifts end, Uber drivers set up camp in parking lots



## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

In the 1970s, the Safeway grocery store in San Francisco's gleaming Marina neighborhood, known as the Social Safeway, was a cornerstone of the pre-Tinder dating scene. Armistead Maupin made it famous in his 1978 book, Tales of the City, calling it "the hottest spot in town" to meet people. For years afterward, locals called it the "Singles Safeway" or the "Dateway."

Forty years later, German Tugas, a 42-year-old Uber driver, got to know it for another reason: Its parking lot was a safe spot to sleep in his car. Most weeknights, Tugas drives over 70 hours a week in San Francisco, where the work is steadier and fares are higher than in his hometown, Sacramento. So every Monday morning, Tugas leaves at 4 a.m., says goodbye to his wife and four daughters, drives 90 miles to the city, and lugs around passengers until he earns $300 or gets too tired to keep going. (Most days he nets $230 after expenses like gas.) Then, he and at least a half dozen other Uber drivers gathered in the Social Safeway parking lot to sleep in their cars before another long day of driving.

"That's the sacrifice," he said in May, smoking a cigarette beside his Toyota Prius parked at the Safeway at 1 a.m., the boats in the bay bobbing gently in the background. "My goal is to get a house somewhere closer, so that I don't have to do this every day."

The vast majority of Uber's full-time drivers return home to their beds at the end of a day's work. But all over the country, there are many who don't. These drivers live near, but not in, expensive cities where they can tap higher fares, ferrying wealthier, white-collar workers to their jobs and out to dinner-but where they can't make enough money to get by, even with longer hours. To maximize their time, drivers find supermarket parking lots, airports and hostels where they catch several hours of sleep after taking riders home from bars and before starting the morning commute.

In a sense, drivers sleeping in their cars typifies, in an extreme way, what Uber said it does best: offer drivers flexibility. "With Uber, people make their own decisions about when, where and how long to drive," the company said in an e-mailed statement. "We're focused on making sure that driving with Uber is a rewarding experience, however you choose to work."

Uber drivers across the country swap tips for finding sleeping spots, like: which stores have the most forgiving security guards and where to find free Wi-Fi. In Chicago, drivers call the 7-11 at the intersection of Wrightwood & North Lincoln Avenues the "Uber Terminal." In Columbus, Ohio, drivers prefer the Walmart off the Jack Nicklaus Freeway. In Queens, New York, drivers are known to frequent the 7-Eleven off JFK Expressway. Drivers on the online forum Uberpeople.net joke that there is money to be made in a motel chain serving the large number of Uber drivers sleeping in their cars in New Jersey.

In Chicago, Walter Laquian Howard sleeps most nights at the "Uber Terminal." "I left my job thinking this would work, and it's getting harder and harder," Howard said. "They have to understand that some of us have decided to make this a full-time career."

Howard has been parking and sleeping at the 7-Eleven four to five nights a week since March 2015, when he began leasing a car from Uber and needed to work more hours to make his minimum payments. Now that it's gotten cold, he wakes up every three hours to turn on the heater. He's rarely alone. Most nights, two to three other ride-hailing drivers sleep in cars parked next to his. It's safe, he said, and the employees let the drivers use the restroom. Howard has gotten to know the convenience store's staff-Daddy-O and Uncle Mike-over the past two years while driving for this global ride-hailing gargantuan, valued at $69 billion.

"These guys have become my extended family," said Howard, 53. "It's my second home. We have this joke that I'm the resident. I keep asking them: 'Hey, did my mail come in yet?'"

Howard's real home is 40 miles away in Griffith, Indiana. He lives alone in a basement apartment that he began renting when he and his wife split. Before working as an Uber driver, Howard was a nurse's assistant. In 2014, he started driving for Uber on the weekends to make some extra cash. The surge pricing and new driver promotions convinced him that he'd hit the jackpot. "It was great. I made $40 an hour, no problem. Of course, I left my job to become a full-time driver," he said. In the fall of 2015, Howard said everything changed when Uber began offering a group-ride service called UberPool and giving drivers a lower cut of their fares. He said he now makes $12.50 an hour. Uber said it's working on improving the UberPool experience for drivers.

Mark Lewandoske, 51, has been driving for Uber since July. He owns a home in the unincorporated town of Sage, California. It's 77 miles from San Diego International Airport, where he gets the best fares and does some of his driving. He'll drive late into the night, usually until the bars close. Then he'll find somewhere quiet to park and sleep. Some days it's on a residential street. To avoid the police and keep warm, he puts up reflective sunshields in his Prius. He tries to work five days in a row before heading home to his partner and dogs.

Lewandoske served in the Navy for 20 years as a hospital corpsman, and one perk of being a veteran is that he has access to Camp Pendleton, the Naval base. No one questions him there. Sometimes he'll park his car for the night, and in the morning, he can shower in the base's gym. "Base police have never done anything to me there," he said. "They know if you're on base, you hold an ID card; you're not going to cause a problem."

It's Lewandoske's military pension that helps him stay afloat; Uber wages are not enough. He likes driving, but, he said, "They need to stop lowering their rates." Lewandoske tries to earn $125 a day no matter how many hours it takes. Sometimes that means he drives 6 hours, other days 18.

At the Travelodge by San Francisco International Airport, drivers occupy about a third of the rooms, a worker at the front desk estimated. Some rooms are shared by several drivers.

In January, Andre Williams booked 11 nights at the motel, so he wouldn't have to commute daily from his home in Sacramento. His tab added up to $980, but he said it's worth it because he'll make up to four times that in a week, working 14 hours a day. Uber regularly rewards drivers who complete 120 trips in a week with cash bonuses of up to $500.

Williams, 40, used to sleep at the Marina Safeway, but his leg started to swell from sitting for too long and never laying down, he said. "I started having some health issues. Usually I stay in a parking lot when I run out of money, but for now I'm treating myself to the Travelodge," Williams said.

Other drivers sleep at hostels, which can be even cheaper. At the Marin Headlands Hostel in Sausalito, California, where guests pay $31 for a bunk bed and shower access, Michaela Hogan, a front desk clerk at the hostel for the past year, said Uber drivers had been coming there at least as long as she's worked there. The hostel limits stays to 14 nights, though, preventing drivers or anyone else from living there full-time. "It's sad because Uber should pay them more," Hogan said. "But the drivers don't seem that sad, to be honest. They do seem tired, though."

More than 1.5 million people all over the world drive for Uber. The company has won many court battles over its classification of them as contractors and not employees. Over the last eight years Uber has upended the taxi industry and is credited with creating a new sector of the workforce: the "gig economy." The company proudly proclaims that the share of drivers who work less than 10 hours a week has climbed to more than 60 percent.

In one recent TV commercial, a smiling actor playing a sometimes-driver quips, "These days, everyone needs a side hustle, and driving with Uber lets you go from earning to working to chilling at the push of a button." The sound of a cash register chimes in the background.

What Uber has never said publicly is that half of the driving gets done by people who work more than 35 hours a week. Those workers generate about half of Uber's revenue and are responsible for about half of Uber's trips, Uber confirmed after Bloomberg analyzed a study of its drivers conducted by the company. A small number of those drivers will go to extremes, like sleeping in parking lots, to make a living.


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

Part 2

For the past few years, Uber has dropped fares across the U.S. at the start of each year. Drivers have seen their earnings fall as a result, though Uber said that over the long-run, hourly pay has remained basically unchanged. This year, Uber has said that it won’t decrease fares, but many drivers said they couldn’t go much lower.

Last week, Uber agreed to settle Federal Trade Commission claims that it misled drivers about how much they could expect to earn each hour. In Boston, a Craigslist ad said drivers could get $25 an hour; however, fewer than 10 percent of drivers were paid that much, according to the FTC’s investigation. Uber said that didn’t account for driver bonuses. “We’re pleased to have reached an agreement with the FTC,” Matt Kallman, an Uber spokesman, wrote in an e-mail. “We’ve made many improvements to the driver experience over the last year and will continue to focus on ensuring that Uber is the best option for anyone looking to earn money on their own schedule.”

Uber is by far the biggest employer in the gig economy, but others have also faced complaints about worker misclassification and falling wages. The food delivery company Instacart recently announced that it was cutting pay for many of its workers. And while U.S. rival Lyft allows riders to tip drivers within the mobile application, fares haven’t proved to be much higher. Some Uber drivers who sleep in their cars also work for Lyft, but the more than a dozen drivers Bloomberg interviewed said they did the majority of their driving for Uber. Lyft, unlike Uber, restricts how many hours drivers can work in a row: After 14 hours, the app makes the driver take a six-hour break.

In an e-mail, Lyft spokesman Adrian Durbin said: “Our drivers tell us that the flexibility to work when and where they want is the most appealing aspect of driving with Lyft. Peak earning hours are often late at night and early in the morning. In order to maximize earnings, a very small fraction of drivers have told us they choose to rest in their cars in between these peak times.”

“I personally haven’t spoken to a driver that's slept in their car,” said Nundu Janakiram, Uber’s head of driver experience. “From my perspective, I think we have such a wide range of drivers, people on our platform, almost nothing I learn about any individual surprises me anymore.”

Uber has declared 2017 “the year of the driver” and said that it will focus much of its energy on building tools for drivers and improving communication. “I take a lot of personal responsibility in making sure our drivers feel heard and recognized and have been given good feedback,” Janakiram said. “I also fully acknowledged and realized that we are many, many steps away.”

"People who work at times when other people don't want to work are paid more both on the Uber platform and by the labor economy as a whole," said Uber's head of economic research Jonathan Hall. "The people who are willing to be inconvenienced can earn higher amounts."

Paul Oyer, a professor of economics at Stanford Graduate School of Business, sees it as a new version of an old story: low-wage earners traveling from affordable places to work in richer ones. “These are essentially immigrants searching for better wages that they then take home to their local economies,” he said, not meaning “immigrants” literally. “It’s not always pretty. These ‘immigrants’ are creating more supply, which is good for consumers, but it’s not good for the workers.”

Others believe that sleeping in parking lots is a direct consequence of Uber’s refusal to classify workers as employees and give them the benefits and protections that go along with that. “If these drivers were considered full-time—and therefore paid a decent and consistent wage—you would not see them sleeping in their cars,” said Erica Smiley, the organizing director at the labor advocacy group Jobs With Justice. “A steady wage allows the worker the confidence to take time to rest. An on-demand wage creates great uncertainty for the workers and their families.”

Another theory is that there are just too many drivers chasing too few rides. “Reasonable regulation—intended to benefit the public—limits the number of for-hire vehicles on the road. Camps flourish when states or cities deregulate and open entry,” said Dave Sutton, a spokesman for a group that represents the Taxicab, Limousine & Paratransit Association.

In a survey of 1,150 drivers, Harry Campbell, who runs a blog for ride-hailing drivers, found that more than half said pay was the most important thing to them, followed by more than a third who picked flexibility. The study found that hourly pay for Uber drivers averaged $15.58 before expenses like gas and maintenance. In study co-authored by Hall, Uber's economist, the average hourly pay for a driver in October 2015 was $19.35.

Tugas, the driver from the Social Safeway parking lot, said that he was sleeping there because he wants to. And he doesn’t hold Uber responsible for his decision to work 14 hour days. In January, eight months after first talking about his life, Tugas is still working his punishing schedule—but he had to find a new sleeping spot. In May, Safeway became less hospitable, hiring a security guard who hassled the drivers, he and Williams said. (Safeway declined to comment.) Some of his fellow drivers moved to a darkened street nearby, but Tugas now sleeps in his car in the parking lot at the McDonald’s by San Francisco International Airport.

“I signed up for this because I am my boss. I kind of own the business. I have the freedom and that’s a beautiful thing,” he said, while laying out his sleeping bag in the back seat of his Toyota Prius, which he parked just before 1 a.m. at the McDonald’s. Six other drivers were also sleeping in the lot, which becomes quiet and dark when the franchise takes its last customer at midnight. “This job is not for everyone. Don’t get it twisted,” he said. “These labor advocates, they don’t know what it’s like to be a driver. They think we’re not being treated right, but I’m happy. If I didn’t like it, I would do something else.”


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

Please note in there that "Uber says it won't lower fares this year". Am I wrong or have they already lowered them in Chicago?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Thanks for the share!
Please remember when posting in NEWS to include the source, date and a link if available.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...rs-set-up-camp-in-parking-lots-across-the-u-s
*When Their Shifts End, Uber Drivers Set Up Camp in Parking Lots Across the U.S.*
When it's too pricey and tiring to go home, some drivers find alternative spots to sleep.
by Eric Newcomer and Olivia ZaleskiJanuary 23, 2017, 5:00 AM EST

story above...
*Video here* 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2017-01-23/why-some-uber-drivers-are-sleeping-in-their-cars


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

Damn. It was so long I was trying to cut stuff


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ginseng41 said:


> Damn. It was so long I was trying to cut stuff


Yeah, on long articles sometime I just post a few good paragraphs and let people follow the link to read the whole thing. 
That's better, I think, for the publisher and staying on the correct side of copyright infringement anyway.


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

Ah. Fair point. The whole thing was really good imo. I never have the data to read the links when I'm out so I do what I'd want done though


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ginseng41 said:


> Ah. Fair point. The whole thing was really good imo. I never have the data to read the links when I'm out so I do what I'd want done though


yup... I make the choices the same way.


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## Jermin8r89 (Mar 10, 2016)

They sound like truck drivers. Hopefuly hes got alot of room in his vehical.


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

There are drivers in my town who do it too. I'd say 75% come up on weekends from 1 to 2 hours away.


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## FL_Dex (Nov 13, 2016)

Listening to my pax, the long time customers miss the old Uber even though rates were higher. They are already concerned about the decline in customer experience, finding out some drivers sleep in their cars is going to add another creep factor. 

Went to lunch with a group this weekend who were all potential drivers. They were thumbs down on the idea. "It's just not worth it," says one. Agreement all around on that point. 

The execs at Uber better get in front of their image problem before it cements. Once the public gets it fixed in their head that Uber is icky people sleeping in their cars, they've got a real problem.


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## Jermin8r89 (Mar 10, 2016)

FL_Dex said:


> Listening to my pax, the long time customers miss the old Uber even though rates were higher. They are already concerned about the decline in customer experience, finding out some drivers sleep in their cars is going to add another creep factor.
> 
> Went to lunch with a group this weekend who were all potential drivers. They were thumbs down on the idea. "It's just not worth it," says one. Agreement all around on that point.
> 
> The execs at Uber better get in front of their image problem before it cements. Once the public gets it fixed in their head that Uber is icky people sleeping in their cars, they've got a real problem.


If my driver slept in his car i wouldnt mind. I go to hotels and some of those i gotta question "why am i sleeping in this bed as i see a white stain on my sheets"

Im sure if he drivs for uberblack itd be like rideing in 5 star hotel but if its a old hondie with stains on seats thats gonna be like rideing in ur 1 star motel 8. I hate motel 8s always dirty


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

This is a return to 19th century working conditions.


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## Uberdriver2710 (Jul 15, 2015)

Uber works for me, I pay them for the service. 

I sleep in my car nightly, because I refuse to work the long hours it takes to pay for overpriced housing (rent avg. here is $1100/mo). Someday I'd like to buy some vacation property in the desert (reasonable prices) where I could set up an rv, and live on my time off, with the rocks and lizards.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

ginseng41 said:


> "I personally haven't spoken to a driver that's slept in their car," said Nundu Janakiram, Uber's head of driver experience.


This person needs to be fired. Perhaps a little trip to the airport lot will change Nundu's mind.

I sleep in the car. But only at the airport lots. I figure, if I am waiting for an hour or so, why not take a nap? I'll rest my eyes for a few minutes elsewhere, but I won't let my self fall into a sleep. My city has too many trouble spots.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

I love the guy who lives 40 miles away from his sleeping spot. 40 miles is not that long. (I typically drive this much after each shift and I am still considered within city limits.) Get home, enjoy your bed. I will have to admit, sometimes I'll pull over for 10-15 minutes and rest my eyes before continuing.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Uberdriver2710 said:


> Uber works for me, I pay them for the service.


You don't pay Uber; they pay you. That's why they have your bank account details but you don't have theirs. They set your pay, they decide which bonuses you are offered and what you must do to qualify for them. They tell you what kind of car is acceptable to them. They tell you how many trips you should accept and how many you may cancel. If one of their pax damages your car then they will decide how much you will receive to clean the mess, provided they decide to pay anything at all.

So don't be gullible. Keep Ubering if you like the deal they have on offer, but don't be under any illusion as to who is the master and who is the servant in this working relationship.


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## JesusisLord777 (Dec 4, 2016)

I picked up a passenger last night that commented that he had gotten some drivers that look like they have been living out of their car, and down rated then accorcdingly. I agree that if this becomes the norm than Ubers reputation is going to take a big hit with customers/investors. 

I occasionly take naps in my car, (usually not more than an hour), when it's slow and I'm waiting for a trip. But if anyone feels that they have to do this, please keep your car clean and smelling good. Don't let it appear to anyone that is what you are doing.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> You don't pay Uber; they pay you. That's why they have your bank account details but you don't have theirs. They set your pay, they decide which bonuses you are offered and what you must do to qualify for them. They tell you what kind of car is acceptable to them. They tell you how many trips you should accept and how many you may cancel. If one of their pax damages your car then they will decide how much you will receive to clean the mess, provided they decide to pay anything at all. So don't be gullible. Keep Ubering if you like the deal they have on offer, but don't be under any illusion as to who is the master and who is the servant in this working relationship.


Everything you say is true and 100% correct, except that technically - _legally_ - we do pay Uber.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Everything you say is true and 100% correct, except that technically - _legally_ - we do pay Uber.


I've never paid them anything. Not a penny has left my bank account and gone into theirs.

The contract the pax has is between Uber and the pax. That contract between them is governed by Uber's TOS. In performance of that contract, the pax pays Uber, not me. Uber then subcontracts the work out to me and pays me for it.

Uber used to (incorrectly) claim that it was paid commission by the driver and that we were its customers. However, now that Uber has delinked the prices it chooses to charge its real customers (pax) from the actual miles & time of the pax' trip, this claim has lost what little credence it ever had in the first place. Uber has its revenue, and then they pay us independently of this according to their set subcontractor pay tables.


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## SafeT (Nov 23, 2015)

Crack heads, rapists, drunks, kidnappers, broke azzes living in their cars. FUber 2017


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> I've never paid them anything. Not a penny has left my bank account and gone into theirs.
> 
> The contract the pax has is between Uber and the pax. That contract between them is governed by Uber's TOS. In performance of that contract, the pax pays Uber, not me. Uber then subcontracts the work out to me and pays me for it.
> 
> Uber used to (incorrectly) claim that it was paid commission by the driver and that we were its customers. However, now that Uber has delinked the prices it chooses to charge its real customers (pax) from the actual miles & time of the pax' trip, this claim has lost what little credence it ever had in the first place. Uber has its revenue, and then they pay us independently of this according to their set subcontractor pay tables.


Do you have a copy of your agreement with Uber that says that (or can you point me to an online version somewhere?)
- I'd like to have it on file for my records.
(The latest one I have still says that Uber acts only as a third party payer and that the rider is my customer and that I am paying Uber for the service they provide me through use of their app).


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Do you have a copy of your agreement with Uber that says that (or can you point me to an online version somewhere?)
> - I'd like to have it on file for my records.
> (The latest one I have still says that Uber acts only as a third party payer and that the rider is my customer and that I am paying Uber for the service they provide me through use of their app).


It's all down to individual interpretation. Uber may well say, "Driver agrees that he is Uber's customer" and if it does say that then I accepted that statement in order to work. However, if Uber were to add to the driver agreement, "Driver also agrees that the moon is made of blue cheese", that would then make two statements that were not true in the contract, regardless of who signed/accepted what. Clearly, simply signing your name under a statement doesn't make it true. Be great if it did though; imagine the possibilities... "I agree that when I awake tomorrow, Katy Perry will be lying next to me in bed". "Driver agrees that he has a net worth of one billion dollars". Etc etc.

Uber tried the "Drivers are our customers" spiel went it went up against the labour commissions when drivers tried claiming unemployment benefit, including cases in New York. Uber lost.

So, again, it's all down to interpretation. If you're a driver in New York, then there's a good chance that you're officially not a customer of Uber. In other places, it's open to debate. For me personally, the category that I place myself in is subcontractor, but with overtones of being bossed around like an employee.


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## Gordiano (Sep 20, 2016)

Trebor said:


> This person needs to be fired. Perhaps a little trip to the airport lot will change Nundu's mind.
> 
> I sleep in the car. But only at the airport lots. I figure, if I am waiting for an hour or so, why not take a nap? I'll rest my eyes for a few minutes elsewhere, but I won't let my self fall into a sleep. My city has too many trouble spots.


How about this..... he's forced to do a minimum of 500 rides. He's forced to live off of whatever he makes while driving , no salary etc. Then he can have the true Uber experience and will at the very least meet one driver who sleeps in his car, and with any luck won't become one.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

Gordiano said:


> How about this..... he's forced to do a minimum of 500 rides. He's forced to live off of whatever he makes while driving , no salary etc. Then he can have the true Uber experience and will at the very least meet one driver who sleeps in his car, and with any luck won't become one.


To add, he needs to do the 120 trips min. a week for that $500 bonus - which I am pissed they dont offer in my city btw.

The most I have ever done was 89 though.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Do you have a copy of your agreement with Uber that says that (or can you point me to an online version somewhere?)
> - I'd like to have it on file for my records.
> (The latest one I have still says that Uber acts only as a third party payer and that the rider is my customer and that I am paying Uber for the service they provide me through use of their app).


Yes, we do pay uber to work for them.


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## Gordiano (Sep 20, 2016)

Trebor said:


> To add, he needs to do the 120 trips min. a week for that $500 bonus - which I am pissed they dont offer in my city btw.
> 
> The most I have ever done was 89 though.


I don't believe that's offered in my area as well. Not that I'd have a shot at making that #, since there are so many drivers here..... not sure I could make 80.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Trebor said:


> Yes, we do pay uber to work for them.


If only we were their customers; I'd be asking for a refund


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> It's all down to individual interpretation. Uber may well say, "Driver agrees that he is Uber's customer" and if it does say that then I accepted that statement in order to work. However, if Uber were to add to the driver agreement, "Driver also agrees that the moon is made of blue cheese", that would then make two statements that were not true in the contract, regardless of who signed/accepted what. Clearly, simply signing your name under a statement doesn't make it true. Be great if it did though; imagine the possibilities... "I agree that when I awake tomorrow, Katy Perry will be lying next to me in bed". "Driver agrees that he has a net worth of one billion dollars". Etc etc.
> 
> Uber tried the "Drivers are our customers" spiel went it went up against the labour commissions when drivers tried claiming unemployment benefit, including cases in New York. Uber lost.
> 
> So, again, it's all down to interpretation. If you're a driver in New York, then there's a good chance that you're officially not a customer of Uber. In other places, it's open to debate. For me personally, the category that I place myself in is subcontractor, but with overtones of being bossed around like an employee.


In other words, it is as I said - legally and technically correct that we pay Uber - as per the definitions of terms and relationships as defined in the Uber Driver Agreement.

Contract law is fairly straight-forward on matters like this: if the clause in the contract does not violate local state or federal law, then it's valid. There being no consequence to an Uber driver if s/he agrees in a contract with Uber that the moon is made of blue cheese, a court would find, not that the contract isn't valid because the moon is not made of cheese, but but that the parties to the contract do agree that the moon is made of cheese - and that's their problem.

The CA Labor Commission is not a court of law - and in CA courts and federal courts up to the appeals level, the bit about the relationship between Uber and its drivers has thus far been upheld. Also, you may not have read it the news, but the CA Labor Commission's ruling (and the one if FL) were both overturned on appeal by Uber.


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## Uberdriver2710 (Jul 15, 2015)

elelegido said:


> You don't pay Uber; they pay you. That's why they have your bank account details but you don't have theirs. They set your pay, they decide which bonuses you are offered and what you must do to qualify for them. They tell you what kind of car is acceptable to them. They tell you how many trips you should accept and how many you may cancel. If one of their pax damages your car then they will decide how much you will receive to clean the mess, provided they decide to pay anything at all.
> 
> So don't be gullible. Keep Ubering if you like the deal they have on offer, but don't be under any illusion as to who is the master and who is the servant in this working relationship.


Nope, they get paid on the deduction percentage.

Have a nice day. (Verbal irony)


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> In other words, it is as I said - legally and technically correct that we pay Uber - as per the definitions of terms and relationships as defined in the Uber Driver Agreement.
> 
> Contract law is fairly straight-forward on matters like this: if the clause in the contract does not violate local state or federal law, then it's valid.


Going to have to disagree with you on that - as far as I'm concerned, Uber pays me as their subcontractor.

The purpose of the recent court action against Uber headed by Liss-Riordan was to attempt to have the court rule that the independent contractor terms are invalid. There's no decision yet in that case, and consequently no decision as to whether the contracts are valid or invalid. Drivers can still argue they are employees and Uber can still argue they are contractors. And neither is wrong, given that there is no decision yet.

By the same token, the same goes for the question of who pays whom. In order to get a definitive, legal/judicial answer, that question too would have to be put before a court and ruled upon. (This is obviously the whole purpose of courts - to decide and provide an official answer when parties disagree). Nobody's going to put this matter before a court though, because it is of no material significance - regardless of who is said to pay whom, the flow of funds is exactly the same. So until there's a legal decision on this, I'll continue to say Uber pays me, and you'll continue to say you pay them, and neither of us will be right, or wrong. It's just opinion.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Uberdriver2710 said:


> Nope, they get paid on the deduction percentage.
> 
> Have a nice day. (Verbal irony)


Lol - it does detract somewhat from the attempted putdown if you have to put an explanation in brackets


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> ...as far as I'm concerned, Uber pays me as their subcontractor.


As they say, you're entitled to your opinion - despite the evidence to the contrary.


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## Uberdriver2710 (Jul 15, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> As they say, you're entitled to your opinion - despite the evidence to the contrary.


I get you, it works both ways, hence the contractor status.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> As they say, you're entitled to your opinion - despite the evidence to the contrary.


As you are to yours.

Right... what shall we argue about next? What about that Trump dude? Wow....


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## Zalltime (Oct 13, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> This is a return to 19th century working conditions.


Stop crying. Capitalism is what you signed up for, so did we. Don't cry, deal with it.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

elelegido said:


> As you are to yours.
> 
> Right... what shall we argue about next? What about that Trump dude? Wow....


Actually, so far trump has been okay. Matter of fact, he has done a couple of things that may actually persuade me to vote for him next term. (given he does not try and exterminate people or be the cause of WWIII.

Why not build a wall? I did not see a source but one of my fb friends blurted out that he is going for a 20% tax on goods imported from mexico to pay for the wall. I think it should be closer to 10% but its not a bad idea.

He signed the thing about deporting illegals... THAT ARE CRIMINALS! Not a bad deal. My S.O. was illegal, but she did not commit any crimes and got her citizenship. Her family quickly followed. I think her father is not far from it, but he has a domestic abuse case on his hands that he is crying about. Yea, not a bad deal if he left. It was a long time ago but its not hard to stay out of trouble. Most of us know this since we passed Uber's "rigorous" background checks.

The anti-abortion fund policy? I totally agree with, especially considering the funding is not for our country (one of the many reasons we are in debt)

The dakota access pipeline was a dick move, you know he did it just to spite obama, but I am pretty sure it generated some good buzz amongst the oil companies.

Everything else so far is giving me reasons to not vote for him 2nd term.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Going to have to disagree with you on that - as far as I'm concerned, Uber pays me as their subcontractor.
> 
> The purpose of the recent court action against Uber headed by Liss-Riordan was to attempt to have the court rule that the independent contractor terms are invalid. There's no decision yet in that case, and consequently no decision as to whether the contracts are valid or invalid. Drivers can still argue they are employees and Uber can still argue they are contractors. And neither is wrong, given that there is no decision yet.
> 
> By the same token, the same goes for the question of who pays whom. In order to get a definitive, legal/judicial answer, that question too would have to be put before a court and ruled upon. (This is obviously the whole purpose of courts - to decide and provide an official answer when parties disagree). Nobody's going to put this matter before a court though, because it is of no material significance - regardless of who is said to pay whom, the flow of funds is exactly the same. So until there's a legal decision on this, I'll continue to say Uber pays me, and you'll continue to say you pay them, and neither of us will be right, or wrong. It's just opinion.


Your right, you are a contractor for Uber, at the same time, you pay them for access to their platform (a/k/a leads)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Trebor said:


> Why not build a wall? I did not see a source but one of my fb friends blurted out that he is going for a 20% tax on goods imported from mexico to pay for the wall. I think it should be closer to 10% but its not a bad idea..


*$300 Billion* in products imported from Mexico would suddenly cost US consumers a lot more... and in that way, consumers and companies would end up paying for the wall.

_Mexico not only provides vehicles and produce, but it also sends us computer and phone equipment, appliances like refrigerators and and air conditioners, as CNN Money detailed last year. And a big tax on imports from Mexico could mean an __increase in prices for American consumers__. And you know what that means? Essentially, you're still paying for the wall on the border of Mexico and the United States, whether you like it or not. - _https://www.bustle.com/p/what-does-the-us-import-from-mexico-youre-right-to-be-worried-33444​


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> *$300 Billion* in products imported from Mexico would suddenly cost US consumers a lot more... and in that way, consumers and companies would end up paying for the wall.
> 
> _Mexico not only provides vehicles and produce, but it also sends us computer and phone equipment, appliances like refrigerators and and air conditioners, as CNN Money detailed last year. And a big tax on imports from Mexico could mean an __increase in prices for American consumers__. And you know what that means? Essentially, you're still paying for the wall on the border of Mexico and the United States, whether you like it or not. - _https://www.bustle.com/p/what-does-the-us-import-from-mexico-youre-right-to-be-worried-33444​


True, that.

Trump will probably just end up signing an executive order to make Mexico itself illegal, and then collect fines to fund the wall.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Trebor said:


> you pay them for access to their platform (a/k/a leads)


Sometimes I get a performance bonus from Uber for the work I do for them. The last one they paid me was $50 for doing 10 rides.

How do you "I'm Uber's customer" guys explain the performance bonuses they pay us? If we're their customers, do you see the bonuses as some kind of refund of the money we allegedly pay them? If so, how do explain this when the bonus they pay me (last week $50) is more than the commission they booked from my rides ($19)? That couldn't be a refund as it was more than they booked in revenue for themselves.

A more convincing explanation of this, to me at least, is reality - they pay us a performance bonus if we do the target number of rides for them, which they specify.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> *$300 Billion* in products imported from Mexico would suddenly cost US consumers a lot more... and in that way, consumers and companies would end up paying for the wall.
> 
> _Mexico not only provides vehicles and produce, but it also sends us computer and phone equipment, appliances like refrigerators and and air conditioners, as CNN Money detailed last year. And a big tax on imports from Mexico could mean an __increase in prices for American consumers__. And you know what that means? Essentially, you're still paying for the wall on the border of Mexico and the United States, whether you like it or not. - _https://www.bustle.com/p/what-does-the-us-import-from-mexico-youre-right-to-be-worried-33444​


I saw this on the news today so I knew it was confirmed. Even a 20% tax won't cost that much more for most goods imported. A case of cerveza would cost you just a coupe dollars more. When it comes to bigger ticket items like refrigerators and air conditioners, that is going to hit hard. However, those things you buy once every 10-20 years anyways. Even longer if your not worried about the style. I don't know if Chevy still has plants down there (my old truck was made in Mexico) but 20% of $60,000 is what $12,000? That is gonna freakin suck.

Even though u.s. consumers are paying the tax, Mexico would still lose money. Why? People will end up buying a couple less avocados.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Trebor said:


> Even a 20% tax won't cost that much more for most goods imported.


A 20% increase at wholesale translates into more than 20% at the retail level. These are competitive products (which is why we import them to begin with). A 20 % tariff will encourage Mexico to sell those products elsewhere - so it's not just about a price increase at the consumer level, it's also about the availability of a lot of our imported produce.


> Even though u.s. consumers are paying the tax, Mexico would still lose money. Why? People will end up buying a couple less avocados.


Wrong economics thinking, I'm afraid. Even if "People will end up buying [20%] less avocados", Mexico would have the same revenues from those sales because they have raised the price to cover the tariff - and then they would have 20% more avocados available to export to other countries (or reduce their costs by growing 20% fewer avocados).


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## NC252 (Jan 8, 2016)

If there's a hell, the good folks at Uber will have a VIP section there.....


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## flexian (Aug 16, 2016)

maybe uber is just ahead of regulation ( again)

if uber is like a stock trading platform then there are specific rules that apply

right now can they charge drivers & riders different prices w/out each knowing?


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

Not definitely seems like something is off about that. My passengers are pissed that it suddenly got more expensive when they find out we're not getting more


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## flexian (Aug 16, 2016)

on this site a constant theme is not getting surge pay

soemthing tells me they dont forget 2 charge riders surge pay

anwyay 

if uber is like a stock trading platform it should be heavily regulated on the techside not only the driver-side......

and all trades er rides shouldbe posted

and the uber platform should be accessbiel via an API.....


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

flexian said:


> on this site a constant theme is not getting surge pay
> soemthing tells me they dont forget 2 charge riders surge pay
> anwyay
> if uber is like a stock trading platform it should be heavily regulated on the techside not only the driver-side...... and all trades er rides shouldbe posted
> and the uber platform should be accessbiel via an API.....


a) There are something like a hundred different fares available for each and every seat on an airline at any given time - because the airline industry is was deregulated (under Reagan).
b) Uber does provide an API - that's how developers write those apps that integrate with Uber and do everything from allowing users to request rides (Amazon Echo) to allowing drivers to historically track surges (Surge Chaser).


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## Gung-Ho (Jun 2, 2015)

How many little tree air fresheners do they have to hang in their cars round about day 3?


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## Leo. (Dec 27, 2015)

Thinking about buying a tent lads


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## NC252 (Jan 8, 2016)

ginseng41 said:


> Not definitely seems like something is off about that. My passengers are pissed that it suddenly got more expensive when they find out we're not getting more


Uber gave their self a raise and kept us at minimum wage....


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> A 20% increase at wholesale translates into more than 20% at the retail level. These are competitive products (which is why we import them to begin with.A 20 % tariff will encourage Mexico to sell those products elsewhere - so it's not just about a price increase at the consumer level, it's also about the availability of a lot of our imported produce.Wrong economics thinking, I'm afraid. Even if "People will end up buying [20%] less avocados", Mexico would have the same revenues from those sales because they have raised the price to cover the tariff - and then they would have 20% more avocados available to export to other countries (or reduce their costs by growing 20% fewer avocados).


The effect of this proposed tariff on avocados is a complex economic puzzle. Can Mexico even sell the excess avocados in other countries- do they have as a big taste for them as America does. Can America or somewhere else ramp production to make up for the shortfall? What are the substitute fruits that people can buy if avocados are too expensive or unavailable? We aren't talking about something that is a necessity, or only available from Mexico, or where there are no substitutes out there. Some people will start eating apples from America if they don't want to pay a high price for avocados.

Similar to Uber Surge. If the Surge gets too high for their tastes, people will wait it out, take a cab, call a friend or rent a car- particularly if they are out at the airport.


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## flexian (Aug 16, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> a) There are something like a hundred different fares available for each and every seat on an airline at any given time - because the airline industry is was deregulated (under Reagan).
> b) Uber does provide an API - that's how developers write those apps that integrate with Uber and do everything from allowing users to request rides (Amazon Echo) to allowing drivers to historically track surges (Surge Chaser).


api is one-sidedly rider-centric (the platform, the mechanism, not visible what so ever)....uber is not a Service for drivers

no market-clearing prices here & no airline analogy here


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Sometimes I get a performance bonus from Uber for the work I do for them. The last one they paid me was $50 for doing 10 rides.
> 
> How do you "I'm Uber's customer" guys explain the performance bonuses they pay us? If we're their customers, do you see the bonuses as some kind of refund of the money we allegedly pay them? If so, how do explain this when the bonus they pay me (last week $50) is more than the commission they booked from my rides ($19)? That couldn't be a refund as it was more than they booked in revenue for themselves.
> 
> A more convincing explanation of this, to me at least, is reality - they pay us a performance bonus if we do the target number of rides for them, which they specify.


Shame YOUR performance bonus is subsidised by my unrewarded PERFORMANCE ! 'Splain that one Lucy . . .


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

NC252 said:


> Uber gave their self a raise and kept us at minimum wage....


Ubee loves working both ends AGAINST the middle.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

I_Like_Spam said:


> The effect of this proposed tariff on avocados is a complex economic puzzle. Can Mexico even sell the excess avocados in other countries- do they have as a big taste for them as America does. Can America or somewhere else ramp production to make up for the shortfall? What are the substitute fruits that people can buy if avocados are too expensive or unavailable? We aren't talking about something that is a necessity, or only available from Mexico, or where there are no substitutes out there. Some people will start eating apples from America if they don't want to pay a high price for avocados.
> 
> Similar to Uber Surge. If the Surge gets too high for their tastes, people will wait it out, take a cab, call a friend or rent a car- particularly if they are out at the airport.


Compare to American vs. Iranian Pistachios . . . Iran makes this great divinity fudge candy with Pistachios . . .


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## dirtylee (Sep 2, 2015)

Honestly, ants like this are why rates in major markets are truly shit.

Uber couldn’t cut rates as low as they do if it wasn't for scabs that live 100 miles away.


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

I find it so weird. I hear from the drivers here that drive in from the adjoining city how little they are making and try to explain that they'd make more at Walmart...they just don't get it. I live 4 miles from downtown so I make money but if I had to add 100 miles to my daily totals, ugh no. I'd be down to minimum wage if lucky


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## Chicago88 (Feb 7, 2016)

The economics around traiffs is simple...higher traiffs leads to higher prices for a foreign exporting country - the USA competition gains advantage, California grows avocados too. While it may be true California avocado growers stand to win a little more money by raising their prices they also risk losing an interested customer base (nobody wants to pay $5 for avocados). California growers add a small increase to enjoy profit - Mexico has to endure the loss of revenue or lower their price...guess who's paying for the wall? Traiffs have long been an economic tool used by almost every country in the world and raising traiffs on any country has a tremendous impact on the product being imported -"traiff taxed". The threat alone of a traiff gives Mexico all the incentive they need to pay for the wall. I'm not even a fan of the wall, just explaining the logic behind who's paying. Mexico has very little leverage against the USA, they don't import many of our products and it would be difficult for Mexico to "strike back".


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Chicago88 said:


> The economics around traiffs is simple...higher traiffs leads to higher prices for a foreign exporting country - the USA competition gains advantage, California grows avocados too. While it may be true California avocado growers stand to win a little more money by raising their prices they also risk losing an interested customer base (nobody wants to pay $5 for avocados). California growers add a small increase to enjoy profit - Mexico has to endure the loss of revenue or lower their price...guess who's paying for the wall? Traiffs have long been an economic tool used by almost every country in the world and raising traiffs on any country has a tremendous impact on the product being imported -"traiff taxed". The threat alone of a traiff gives Mexico all the incentive they need to pay for the wall. I'm not even a fan of the wall, just explaining the logic behind who's paying. Mexico has very little leverage against the USA, they don't import many of our products and it would be difficult for Mexico to "strike back".


let's see if that's the scenario that plays out - I'd bet against it mainly because it assumes that the US is the only market Mexico has to sell avocados to. More interesting will be to see how GM fares selling Mexican made cars in the us against US made Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas.


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

Well if GM made cars as good as Hondas and Toyotas then it might be a fair comparison. I can't speak for Nissans, but every American car I have ever owned has failed in comparison to every Asian one. 3 Asians cars with no major issues ever (my 2013 has 122k and has had nothing but routine maintenance). 3 American ones and each and every one had a major issue before 50k, one had so many I gave up and scrapped it at 120k.


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## tone17 (Sep 9, 2016)

I think it is funny that Trump went to business school, but did not pay attention in Econ class.


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

I went to business school too (accounting 2008 grrr) and I learned that his ideas other than refusing to pay his bills do not make for a good business success


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## Fahrenheit0341 (Feb 6, 2017)

FL_Dex said:


> Listening to my pax, the long time customers miss the old Uber even though rates were higher. They are already concerned about the decline in customer experience, finding out some drivers sleep in their cars is going to add another creep factor.
> 
> Went to lunch with a group this weekend who were all potential drivers. They were thumbs down on the idea. "It's just not worth it," says one. Agreement all around on that point.
> 
> The execs at Uber better get in front of their image problem before it cements. Once the public gets it fixed in their head that Uber is icky people sleeping in their cars, they've got a real problem.


Truth. Stereotypes about uber drivers are settling in here in San Francisco. Stereotypes that are increasingly true. But people vote with their wallets.


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## Fahrenheit0341 (Feb 6, 2017)

tone17 said:


> I think it is funny that Trump went to business school, but did not pay attention in Econ class.


TRUUUUUUUTH

He at least paid enough attention to realize that it makes sense for him to practice free-market globalist economics, just not others. Or he believes he was swindling people by making his products overseas rather than realizing it's the best for everyone. Guilty conscience.


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## Fahrenheit0341 (Feb 6, 2017)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> This is a return to 19th century working conditions.


You would only say that if you had no real idea what 19th century working conditions were like. We're not losing our hands in a primitive lead-smelter after being forced to work 7 days a week, 16 hours a day or we're fired. We're all addicted to the long hours because that's how we make the most money. But we have total flexibility and driving our own high-quality cars with heating and air conditioning is nothing compared to how hard work was a generation ago, let alone in the 19th century.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Fahrenheit0341 said:


> You would only say that if you had no real idea what 19th century working conditions were like. We're not losing our hands in a primitive lead-smelter after being forced to work 7 days a week, 16 hours a day or we're fired. We're all addicted to the long hours because that's how we make the most money. But we have total flexibility and driving our own high-quality cars with heating and air conditioning is nothing compared to how hard work was a generation ago, let alone in the 19th century.


Lol. Slavery to low wages is exactly robber baron tactics. Drive long enough hours and people begin to die behind the wheel due to accidents.


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## Christ (Oct 20, 2015)

JesusisLord777 said:


> I picked up a passenger last night that commented that he had gotten some drivers that look like they have been living out of their car, and down rated then accorcdingly. I agree that if this becomes the norm than Ubers reputation is going to take a big hit with customers/investors.
> 
> I occasionly take naps in my car, (usually not more than an hour), when it's slow and I'm waiting for a trip. But if anyone feels that they have to do this, please keep your car clean and smelling good. Don't let it appear to anyone that is what you are doing.


I have a frieand that sleep in his car 4 day at the week and them rent a hotel for cheap take a shower sleep that night and do it over again


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## Greenghost2212 (Feb 7, 2017)

SafeT said:


> Crack heads, rapists, drunks, kidnappers, broke azzes living in their cars. FUber 2017


But here u are on an uber affiliated website.....................


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## Kabin Sons (Oct 4, 2017)

Hi elelegido,
Thanks for giving your description about your penny. I think it is better for all of us to use a Uber. It is rare.....

As you say that I want to know how it will be possible. Kindly informed me more about this.
Thanks again a lot.


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## Kabin Sons (Oct 4, 2017)

For me it would be better to know that all kind of subject what you say I don't know.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

This is very sad.


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## Strange Fruit (Aug 10, 2016)

Kabin Sons said:


> For me it would be better to know that all kind of subject what you say I don't know.


I agree. For me it would be better to know that all kind of subject what you say I don't know.


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## Kabin Sons (Oct 4, 2017)

I wait for information it is true. 

Why this is very sad?


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## Kabin Sons (Oct 4, 2017)

Please give some more lovely information about sad.


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## Kabin Sons (Oct 4, 2017)

I get a lot of fun from this.

Thanks again.


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## Kabin Sons (Oct 4, 2017)

What is the thing that give us a lot of fun? We always thing that but we don't know why men laugh.


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## Kabin Sons (Oct 4, 2017)

Many subject has in the world which we don't know and it is impossible to know everything.


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## Kabin Sons (Oct 4, 2017)

> I picked up a passenger last night that commented that he had gotten some drivers that look like they have been living out of their car, and down rated then accorcdingly. I agree that if this becomes the norm than Ubers reputation is going to take a big hit with customers/investors.
> 
> I occasionly take naps in my car, (usually not more than an hour), when it's slow and I'm waiting for a trip. But if anyone feels that they have to do this, please keep your car clean and smelling good. Don't let it appear to anyone that is what you are doing.


Nice story and I swear that I must keep my car clean and smelling good.


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## Kabin Sons (Oct 4, 2017)

> I agree. For me it would be better to know that all kind of subject what you say I don't know.
> 
> "The concept of 'mental health' in our society is defined largely by the extent to which an individual behaves in accord with the needs of the system and does so without showing signs of stress." ---Ted Kaczynski


Thanks,
It is true that the mental health in our society largely defined but it need a systematic change.


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