# Video of Service Animal Fraud Attempt by Lyft Pax



## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

The day after Uber reinstated me after suspending me for allegedly "refusing to take a service animal" (the dog was actually an emotional support dog, not a service animal), another young lady tries to get in the car with her emo dog!

Service dog fraud is really getting out of hand. As Adieu pointed out in another thread, claiming that a non-service animal such as an emo dog is a service dog is a crime punishable by six months in jail and a fine of $1,000. The rideshare companies indirectly support service dog fraud by (a) not making it clear to pax that emo dogs are not service animals and (b) deactivating and suspending drivers when they have done nothing but follow the law. Today Lyft took a leaf out of Uber's book and immediately suspended my account while they "investigate" the false complaint from this pax that I refused to take a service animal:










Blah blah blah... yes, I know what the law is, and I didn't break it. But with Uberlyft you are guilty until proven innocent. I am always able to prove that I am innocent, but it is an irritation being suspended every time a young lady doesn't get her way.

Anyway, here is today's young lady:


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

Print a placard copy of the Ralphs sign.










Don't "refuse" so much as start discussing CA Penal Code 365.7 (a) and what you feel is your CIVIC DUTY to audiovisually document and report rampant MISDEMEANOR FRAUD

Ought to make them back off while apologizing profusely if done right.

PS hells yeah they know they ain't got no ADA Service Animal, they just figure they can wiggle thru cuz what's the big deal


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Adieu said:


> Print a placard copy of the Ralphs sign.
> 
> Don't "refuse" so much as start discussing CA Penal Code 365.7 (a) and what you feel is your CIVIC DUTY to audiovisually document and report rampant MISDEMEANOR FRAUD
> 
> ...


I don't know; it's an uphill battle. When I went to the Uber center this week in Daly City, I had two support drones trying to tell me that emo dogs are service animals, that we have to take them etc. I showed them the ADA publication that states that emo dogs are not service animals under Title II or Title III of the ADA. One of the drones replied that there are defined as that under Title I. I laughed at him and told him he was making it up as he went along - Title I relates to discrimination against the disabled by employers and has nothing to do with animals. Then the supervisor came along and said that he didn't know what the service animal rules are.

With the rideshare companies being clueless about this, there's zero chance they are going to pass on the correct information to drivers.


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## Geno71 (Dec 23, 2016)

I would love to see how those dogs get trained to perform "emotional support", like they're trained to bring her a blanket and some ice cream every time she's feeling sad? That whole thing is counterintuitive too, I have a dog and he only pisses me off, no support at all. Lazy bastard.


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## nickd8775 (Jul 12, 2015)

Only airlines and landlords are required to take emotional support dogs.


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## Salah Deaibes (Jun 5, 2017)

Ok any dog service or emotional must have a certificate handy with the owner not because she said or he said it is .
I never refuse a dog or cat I like animals but Uber failed to mention the certificate parts of the law no idea about Lyft.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

That was perfectly handled. Textbook even. You asked thenonly questions you were allowed to ask and she answered them wrong. Great job.

The first clue that it was fraud was that she had the id and certificate. There is no such thing. All she did was go to a website of a fraud registry, paid $150 for an id certifcate and a vest. Now she may not realize she was fraudulently calling her dog a service dog but why are these websites allowed to propagate that lie?



Salah Deaibes said:


> Ok any dog service or emotional must have a certificate handy with the owner not because she said or he said it is .
> I never refuse a dog or cat I like animals but Uber failed to mention the certificate parts of the law no idea about Lyft.


There is no certificate or id, not federally which is hpw this law applies by federal law contained in the Americans with Disability Act.


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## Geno71 (Dec 23, 2016)

Yeah and my understanding is that no one is actually allowed to ask to see the certificate, only ask what kind of service an animal is trained to perform, which is what the OP did. Handled very well. It's odd that you're running into this thing so much, I drove for about 6 months and had not a single animal in my car, no one ever tried.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Video and covering email submitted to Lyft last night. Got a response from them this morning:












steveK2016 said:


> Now she may not realize she was fraudulently calling her dog a service dog but why are these websites allowed to propagate that lie?


It's hard to say; this young lady didn't make too much of a fuss about being ride denied; this makes me think she knows the deal. Others really kick off when I reject them over their emo dog, shouting and cursing etc.

I think the lawmakers need to go back to the drawing board and come up with something that protects the rights of disabled people and limits the ability of scammers to scam.



Geno71 said:


> Yeah and my understanding is that no one is actually allowed to ask to see the certificate, only ask what kind of service an animal is trained to perform, which is what the OP did. Handled very well. It's odd that you're running into this thing so much, I drove for about 6 months and had not a single animal in my car, no one ever tried.


I think it's a west coast thing. The perp is always a young lady in her early to mid twenties and the dog is always a toy-sized lapdog; having an emo dog seems to be some kind of fashion statement.


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## UberMensch2015 (Jan 29, 2015)

Handled perfectly. Great job. She won't learn a lesson but you stopped her from taking advantage of you and from taking advantage of people with legitimate needs for a service animal. That's what bothers me most about these fraudsters.


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## Talcire (May 18, 2016)

NOT handled perfectly.
If you see a dog, just drive on. Don't engage. No reason to prove a point or punish a fraud. If you engage, you open yourself to being fired. If you just drive on by, there is no way to prove why you canceled.
If Uber/Lyft are truly a side-gig for you, and you are not relying on the income, then by all means, have a ball with these scammers! I don't like them and I don't like them threatening my income.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Talcire said:


> NOT handled perfectly.
> If you see a dog, just drive on. Don't engage. No reason to prove a point or punish a fraud. If you engage, you open yourself to being fired. If you just drive on by, there is no way to prove why you canceled.
> If Uber/Lyft are truly a side-gig for you, and you are not relying on the income, then by all means, have a ball with these scammers! I don't like them and I don't like them threatening my income.


There's a good reason why I choose to confront the fake service dog scammers, and it has nothing to do with proving a point or punishing them. I would prefer it if they didn't do it at all.

The reason that I confront them is so that I can defend myself against their false allegations. The _only_ way that I know of for a driver to defend himself against the scammers is to send in video evidence of the scammer confirming that her dog has not been trained in tasks to help her, and/or her confirming that her dog is an emotional support dog. You could just drive on, and most emo dog owners would not report the incident. But, if they do, with Uberlyft service animal investigations, you are guilty until proven innocent. If you just drive by then you have no video proof. If two people report you for this on Lyft, you're done. See the section in the red box below. All they require is two _plausible_ reports, which means they just take the young ladies' word for it- Lyft doesn't require the dog owner to prove why the driver cancelled, as you suggest.










However, if you can prove that you are innocent (remember, you are guilty until proven innocent), then the outcome will be that in the green box. I like the green box more than I like the red box.


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## dirtylee (Sep 2, 2015)

Great work calling them out. 

I've given real service animal rides before. The dead giveaway it's legit; the pax is obviously disabled. The dogs are always larger breeds that are trainable. Not little cat like things.


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## June132017 (Jun 13, 2017)

Good job for sure. They should deactivate that PAX. These people think they are kings and queens.


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## Uberfunitis (Oct 21, 2016)

dirtylee said:


> Great work calling them out.
> 
> I've given real service animal rides before. The dead giveaway it's legit; the pax is obviously disabled. The dogs are always larger breeds that are trainable. Not little cat like things.


How can you easily see that someone has seizures from time to time and his little dog has been trained to warn him or her before they happen?


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## Hagong (Jan 17, 2017)

Post your situation and the video on Lyft's FB page.


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## KellyC (May 8, 2017)

elelegido said:


> The day after Uber reinstated me after suspending me for allegedly "refusing to take a service animal" (the dog was actually an emotional support dog, not a service animal), another young lady tries to get in the car with her emo dog!
> 
> Service dog fraud is really getting out of hand. As Adieu pointed out in another thread, claiming that a non-service animal such as an emo dog is a service dog is a crime punishable by six months in jail and a fine of $1,000. The rideshare companies indirectly support service dog fraud by (a) not making it clear to pax that emo dogs are not service animals and (b) deactivating and suspending drivers when they have done nothing but follow the law. Today Lyft took a leaf out of Uber's book and immediately suspended my account while they "investigate" the false complaint from this pax that I refused to take a service animal:
> 
> ...


Personally, I probably would have let the dog ride, if it was clean & well-behaved, but it is galling that people lie about this.


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## PepeLePiu (Feb 3, 2017)

KellyC said:


> Personally, I probably would have let the dog ride, if it was clean & well-behaved, but it is galling that people lie about this.


I agree, I don't mind taking pets as long as they are well behaved and the riders won't lie about them. To date I only given 2 rides to service animals and about 4 pets. The one with pets texted me before the ride to ask I they can bring their dogs and 1 cat, they were appreciative and generous, all of them tipped me.
Strangely enough the ones with the service animals are not as nice pax as the ones riding with pets.


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## Clifford Chong (May 3, 2015)

Dog on lap the whole ride...what can go wrong? I would've just let her ride.

Though lying about her "service dog" doesn't say a lot about her character...


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

Salah Deaibes said:


> Ok any dog service or emotional must have a certificate handy with the owner not because she said or he said it is .
> I never refuse a dog or cat I like animals but Uber failed to mention the certificate parts of the law no idea about Lyft.


You are incorrect there is no certificate or standardized training for service dogs. A service dog is one that is trained to complete a specific task or tasks.

If some produces a certificate they have purchased it off the internet.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Talcire said:


> NOT handled perfectly.
> If you see a dog, just drive on. Don't engage. No reason to prove a point or punish a fraud. If you engage, you open yourself to being fired. If you just drive on by, there is no way to prove why you canceled.
> If Uber/Lyft are truly a side-gig for you, and you are not relying on the income, then by all means, have a ball with these scammers! I don't like them and I don't like them threatening my income.


Terrible advise.

You open up yourself to being fired for just driving on. The app will be able to show that you drove within visual range. If the pax claims you looked right at her, she/he saw you and waived you down but you intentionally drove past and did not make an attempt to call, they can and will put two and two together with the dog. You may get away with it once, maybe twice, but once they see a habit, you're done.

What the OP did was handled perfectly to preserve his job. He asked the two questions he was allowed to ask as per federal law. She failed to answer the questions correctly, he has video of encounter. No ADA violation. No policy violation. No termination. No law suit.

Your method can still get you fired. His method guaranteed he won't get fired because he followed 100% of federal law and 100% of policy.


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## bestpals (Aug 22, 2015)

steveK2016 said:


> Terrible advise.
> 
> You open up yourself to being fired for just driving on. The app will be able to show that you drove within visual range. If the pax claims you looked right at her, she/he saw you and waived you down but you intentionally drove past and did not make an attempt to call, they can and will put two and two together with the dog. You may get away with it once, maybe twice, but once they see a habit, you're done.
> 
> ...


He just needs to start threatening Uber and Lyft with lawsuits if they keep needlessly suspending him. No reason they can't investigate while he continues to drive.


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## Yasmani (May 6, 2017)

Any dogs riders I attend to better be fast runners, because both human and animal are being tethered to my tow-bar.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

bestpals said:


> He just needs to start threatening Uber and Lyft with lawsuits if they keep needlessly suspending him. No reason they can't investigate while he continues to drive.


In an email on this incident from Lyft's "Trust and Safety" department, one of their support drones wrote:

_While accounts are under investigation, it is our proper protocol to temporarily disable them. As it pertains to matters involving safety, it doesn't make much sense to wait for a driver response before placing a temporary hold on the account. If that were the case, drivers would have no reason to respond to safety-related inquires, and the delay in deactivation would place our community's safety at risk.
_
I explained in response that refusal of a service animal is not acceptable, however trying to claim that doing this would somehow be a safety issue was clearly ridiculous. Even if a driver did refuse a service animal, the worst that could happen, absolute worst case is that the passenger would request another ride and have to wait a few more minutes. Lyft claims that this a safety issue because they need some good reason to justify immediately suspending a driver and causing him to lose money, but this is clearly nonsense. Raquel, the young lady in the video, decided to walk off with her little dog in tow after she was ride denied. She looked very happy strolling off; it was in fact a nice summer's day and a great day for a walk. I didn't see her safety at risk at all.

I did suggest to the support drone that Lyft allow its drivers to complete their shift when a service animal complaint comes in. I find Lyft's inference that they have to immediately suspend us in order to give us an incentive to respond to the complaint to be quite insulting. Give drivers 24 hours to reply and then suspend if they do not respond. Nobody's safety is at risk and, this way, the driver wouldn't lose money due to the scammers or Lyft's complicity with them.



Hagong said:


> Post your situation and the video on Lyft's FB page.


Great idea. I don't use Facebook but if anyone can post the video on their Facebook page, PM me an email address and and I'll email you the video.


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## Tony martel (Jun 26, 2017)

You are in the service business now... When you started doing this job it was to pick up whoever needed a ride to take them where they needed to go and you get paid money to do it... You do not pick and choose.... Now if you absolutely are absolutely allergic to animals.. and you need to talk to Uber and work something out or at least inform your customers that you are so sorry you were so allergic and get them another ride immediately... Course you need to forewarn Uber/lyft that you cannot drive people with animals... Therefore limiting your possibilities all of you complaining about that I have never once in all my years of driving and I've been doing it long before Uber and Lyft would say anything to a customer most of them have well-behaved animals that sit right on their lap or in the floor once in a blue moon one of them might get here on a seat and I go and vacuum it with a Dollar vacuum... It is not going to make or break you to vacuum up something but it will make or break you if you don't stop complaining about your job and stop harassing people who have animals and videotaping them... They have every right to bring their animal with them I don't care if it's a service animal or not if they were going to the veterinarian I've had to do it myself personally and I've never had a problem with any driver so you better get on the ball or get on the stick or go get another job where you can pick and choose that's what I would recommend


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Tony martel said:


> You are in the service business now... When you started doing this job it was to pick up whoever needed a ride to take them where they needed to go and you get paid money to do it... You do not pick and choose.... Now if you absolutely are absolutely allergic to animals.. and you need to talk to Uber and work something out or at least inform your customers that you are so sorry you were so allergic and get them another ride immediately... Course you need to forewarn Uber/lyft that you cannot drive people with animals... Therefore limiting your possibilities all of you complaining about that I have never once in all my years of driving and I've been doing it long before Uber and Lyft would say anything to a customer most of them have well-behaved animals that sit right on their lap or in the floor once in a blue moon one of them might get here on a seat and I go and vacuum it with a Dollar vacuum... It is not going to make or break you to vacuum up something but it will make or break you if you don't stop complaining about your job and stop harassing people who have animals and videotaping them... They have every right to bring their animal with them I don't care if it's a service animal or not if they were going to the veterinarian I've had to do it myself personally and I've never had a problem with any driver so you better get on the ball or get on the stick or go get another job where you can pick and choose that's what I would recommend


The purpose of this thread is neither to tell people not to take people's pets in their cars or to take pets. Its purpose is to highlight the problem of service animal fraud.

Whether or not to take pets is a matter of personal choice. You seem to like pets and don't mind the cleanup, and if so, then that's great! I'm not telling others what to do here. You keep right on taking all animals in your car.

I personally do not like pet dogs and, as it is a matter of personal preference, I'll keep on choosing to refuse them. I do understand that you would like me to take these pets in my car and you recommend that I do take them, but I will be declining your recommendation at this time.


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## Uberfunitis (Oct 21, 2016)

bestpals said:


> He just needs to start threatening Uber and Lyft with lawsuits if they keep needlessly suspending him. No reason they can't investigate while he continues to drive.


Uber and Lyft do not have to stick to the rules of the ADA with regards to service animals, they can have stricter rules, for example they could require and deactivate people who do not take emotional service dogs simply as their policy they can always require us to be more accommodating.


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## AuxCordBoston (Dec 3, 2016)

In my opinion, just take the dog. I like dogs


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## AuxCordBoston (Dec 3, 2016)

elelegido said:


> The day after Uber reinstated me after suspending me for allegedly "refusing to take a service animal" (the dog was actually an emotional support dog, not a service animal), another young lady tries to get in the car with her emo dog!
> 
> Service dog fraud is really getting out of hand. As Adieu pointed out in another thread, claiming that a non-service animal such as an emo dog is a service dog is a crime punishable by six months in jail and a fine of $1,000. The rideshare companies indirectly support service dog fraud by (a) not making it clear to pax that emo dogs are not service animals and (b) deactivating and suspending drivers when they have done nothing but follow the law. Today Lyft took a leaf out of Uber's book and immediately suspended my account while they "investigate" the false complaint from this pax that I refused to take a service animal:
> 
> ...


Why don't you want to take the dog? Don't like dogs?


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Uberfunitis said:


> Uber and Lyft do not have to stick to the rules of the ADA with regards to service animals, they can have stricter rules, for example they could require and deactivate people who do not take emotional service dogs simply as their policy they can always require us to be more accommodating.


As I once explained to an Uberdrone from their driver deactivation team who tried to tell me that Uber expects drivers to take emo dogs - the day Uber makes me an employee and gives me full employee benefits _and_ gives me a fully expensed company vehicle to drive their customers around in, _that_ is the day they can tell me what animals to put in the car. Until that day arrives, and while I am an independent contractor operating my own vehicle, I will decide which non-service animals I will take in my car. I made this very clear to the deactivation drone. She thanked me for my time and that was the end of our conversation.


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## Uberfunitis (Oct 21, 2016)

elelegido said:


> As I once explained to an Uberdrone from their driver deactivation team who tried to tell me that Uber expects drivers to take emo dogs - the day Uber makes me an employee and gives me full employee benefits _and_ gives me a fully expensed company vehicle to drive their customers around in, _that_ is the day they can tell me what animals to put in the car. Until that day arrives, and while I am an independent contractor operating my own vehicle, I will decide which non-service animals I will take in my car. I made this very clear to the deactivation drone. She thanked me for my time and that was the end of our conversation.


That is a fair response, it would also be a fair response on their end to say, Thank you Elelegido, your services are no longer required, you will receive no further access to the driver app. Thank you, and have a great day.


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

elelegido said:


> The day after Uber reinstated me after suspending me for allegedly "refusing to take a service animal" (the dog was actually an emotional support dog, not a service animal), another young lady tries to get in the car with her emo dog!
> 
> Service dog fraud is really getting out of hand. As Adieu pointed out in another thread, claiming that a non-service animal such as an emo dog is a service dog is a crime punishable by six months in jail and a fine of $1,000. The rideshare companies indirectly support service dog fraud by (a) not making it clear to pax that emo dogs are not service animals and (b) deactivating and suspending drivers when they have done nothing but follow the law. Today Lyft took a leaf out of Uber's book and immediately suspended my account while they "investigate" the false complaint from this pax that I refused to take a service animal:
> 
> ...


Would have also been great if you called 911 and asked passenger to wait until Police showed up to arrest her for Fraud, based on the video evidence you had. 



Salah Deaibes said:


> Ok any dog service or emotional must have a certificate handy with the owner not because she said or he said it is .
> I never refuse a dog or cat I like animals but Uber failed to mention the certificate parts of the law no idea about Lyft.


Nope. Owner is not required to show any certificate (and they can get fake ones online for pennies). You may only ask 2 questions, and requesting a certificate is not one of them and you will be in violation of the law, doing so.



Tony martel said:


> You are in the service business now... When you started doing this job it was to pick up whoever needed a ride to take them where they needed to go and you get paid money to do it... You do not pick and choose.... Now if you absolutely are absolutely allergic to animals.. and you need to talk to Uber and work something out or at least inform your customers that you are so sorry you were so allergic and get them another ride immediately... Course you need to forewarn Uber/lyft that you cannot drive people with animals... Therefore limiting your possibilities all of you complaining about that I have never once in all my years of driving and I've been doing it long before Uber and Lyft would say anything to a customer most of them have well-behaved animals that sit right on their lap or in the floor once in a blue moon one of them might get here on a seat and I go and vacuum it with a Dollar vacuum... It is not going to make or break you to vacuum up something but it will make or break you if you don't stop complaining about your job and stop harassing people who have animals and videotaping them... They have every right to bring their animal with them I don't care if it's a service animal or not if they were going to the veterinarian I've had to do it myself personally and I've never had a problem with any driver so you better get on the ball or get on the stick or go get another job where you can pick and choose that's what I would recommend


Deactivation demeanor for certain. Learn what this 'job' really is.


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## 2Cents (Jul 18, 2016)

UberLaLa said:


> Would have also been great if you called 911 and asked passenger to wait until Police showed up to arrest her for Fraud, based on the video evidence you had.
> 
> Nope. Owner is not required to show any certificate (and they can get fake ones online for pennies). You may only ask 2 questions, and requesting a certificate is not one of them and you will be in violation of the law, doing so.


What are the two questions?


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

2Cents said:


> What are the two questions?


_1. Is your dog a Service Animal?
2. What duty is it trained to perform?
_
If rider answers _Yes_ to the first question. But states that it is trained as an _Emotional Support or Therapy Dog_, and you get that on camera, you do not need to take the dog. As was the case in OP's video. But, you very possibly will get Suspended, and possibly even deactivated, since Lyft/Uber do not know the law.


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## 2Cents (Jul 18, 2016)

elelegido said:


> I don't know; it's an uphill battle. When I went to the Uber center this week in Daly City, I had two support drones trying to tell me that emo dogs are service animals, that we have to take them etc. I showed them the ADA publication that states that emo dogs are not service animals under Title II or Title III of the ADA. One of the drones replied that there are defined as that under Title I. I laughed at him and told him he was making it up as he went along - Title I relates to discrimination against the disabled by employers and has nothing to do with animals. Then the supervisor came along and said that he didn't know what the service animal rules are.
> 
> With the rideshare companies being clueless about this, there's zero chance they are going to pass on the correct information to drivers.


They pay Millenials Bucco $ that know absolutely nothing.


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## melusine3 (Jun 20, 2016)

elelegido said:


> Video and covering email submitted to Lyft last night. Got a response from them this morning:
> 
> View attachment 131862
> 
> ...


What both companies need to do is inform those who make such specious claims that if they are found to be fraudulent, they will be charged a $150 fee to cover the inconvenience to the driver.



UberMensch2015 said:


> Handled perfectly. Great job. She won't learn a lesson but you stopped her from taking advantage of you and from taking advantage of people with legitimate needs for a service animal. That's what bothers me most about these fraudsters.


They would learn a lesson if Uber would charge them $150 for making a fraudulent claim, payment to the driver, of course! All such fraudulent claims should have fines attached to them.



dirtylee said:


> Great work calling them out.
> 
> I've given real service animal rides before. The dead giveaway it's legit; the pax is obviously disabled. The dogs are always larger breeds that are trainable. Not little cat like things.


Plus, they are fine with the dog sitting on the floor.



Uberfunitis said:


> Uber and Lyft do not have to stick to the rules of the ADA with regards to service animals, they can have stricter rules, for example they could require and deactivate people who do not take emotional service dogs simply as their policy they can always require us to be more accommodating.


Waitaminit! Can't "requiring" us to perform an action that isn't illegal be something along the lines of employer/employee relationship?


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## Dammit Mazzacane (Dec 31, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Video and covering email submitted to Lyft last night. Got a response from them this morning:
> 
> View attachment 131862


That word "elected" concerns me. Essentially, we've carefully selected to let you in. We could have not selected to do this.


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## kdyrpr (Apr 23, 2016)

Geno71 said:


> Yeah and my understanding is that no one is actually allowed to ask to see the certificate, only ask what kind of service an animal is trained to perform, which is what the OP did. Handled very well. It's odd that you're running into this thing so much, I drove for about 6 months and had not a single animal in my car, no one ever tried.


Agree, close to 3000 rides, have had 1 guy asked if it was ok for his dog to come along. Didn't make up a BS emotional support story. Let him. Tipped me. 2. One women had a little dog that she held in her arms the whole way. No problem. The other was a legit service dog for a blind women. The dog sat on floor of the back seat and didn't utter a sound. THAT is a service dog. They are trained not to be distracted. The first sign that a "service" dog is a fraud is if they act up in any way shape or form.


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## empresstabitha (Aug 25, 2016)

elelegido said:


> I don't know; it's an uphill battle. When I went to the Uber center this week in Daly City, I had two support drones trying to tell me that emo dogs are service animals, that we have to take them etc. I showed them the ADA publication that states that emo dogs are not serviced animals under Title II or Title III of the ADA. One of the drones replied that there are defined as that under Title I. I laughed at him and told him he was making it up as he went along - Title I relates to discrimination against the disabled by employers and has nothing to do with animals. Then the supervisor came along and said that he didn't know what the service animal rules are.
> 
> With the rideshare companies being clueless about this, there's zero chance they are going to pass on the correct information to drivers.


It depends if the emotional support dog is chosen to perform a task. There are dogs who stop people from hurting themselves, remind them to take pills, help when they are having a panic attack and other things. So, no a typical ESA isn't a service animal, but one trained to perform a task is because it provides a service. They also have to be trained in all the things a typical service animal is trained in.

Although this ladies was definitely not a service animal because the fact she said it was registered and had papers proves its fake. There is no central registration for service animals. All those online registration documents are bull shit.



Geno71 said:


> I would love to see how those dogs get trained to perform "emotional support" like they're trained to bring her a blanket and some ice cream every time she's feeling sad? That whole thing is counterintuitive too, I have a dog and he only pisses me off, no support at all. Lazy bastard.


There are dogs trained to stop people from hurting themselves, remind them to take their pills. They are trained to force the person to per them if they're having a panic attack in order to prevent them from doing harm. Dogs can sense things humans can't. But these are all legit task that if her dog was actually trained then she would have stated it.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

melusine3 said:


> What both companies need to do is inform those who make such specious claims that if they are found to be fraudulent, they will be charged a $150 fee to cover the inconvenience to the driver.
> 
> They would learn a lesson if Uber would charge them $150 for making a fraudulent claim, payment to the driver, of course! All such fraudulent claims should have fines attached to them.
> 
> ...


There no way for Uber to truly know they are being fraudulent. With a threat like that, being announced to everyone, you might just get these fraudster to research the correct answer to the second question.



empresstabitha said:


> It depends if the emotional support dog is chosen to perform a task. There are dogs who stop people from hurting themselves, remind them to take pills, help when they are having a panic attack and other things. So, no a typical ESA isn't a service animal, but one trained to perform a task is because it provides a service. They also have to be trained in all the things a typical service animal is trained in.
> 
> Although this ladies was definitely not a service animal because the fact she said it was registered and had papers proves its fake. There is no central registration for service animals. All those online registration documents are bull shit.
> 
> There are dogs trained to stop people from hurting themselves, remind them to take their pills. They are trained to force the person to per them if they're having a panic attack in order to prevent them from doing harm. Dogs can sense things humans can't. But these are all legit task that if her dog was actually trained then she would have stated it.


Stopping someone from hurting themselves or to remind them to take a pill is a service and not emotional support. Emotional support is not something you train a dog to do, they are just natural at providing emotional support. My dogs are emotional support, they are great to relax me after a long day of work. That's why we have dogs as pets because they naturally give us emotional support.


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## Driver2448 (Mar 8, 2017)

Independent contractors = should get to pick who we want to give rides to without consequences. Email Lyft and tell them you have an allergic reaction to dogs.


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Once it's been trained tasks (such as those you mentioned, along with public access training), it's no longer an ESA, and is now a service dog. All service dog start out as just dogs (which is effectively all an ESA dog is), it's that training that makes them service dogs. As you both stated though, they would have known that and listed their tasks if they had a real service dog.



Driver2448 said:


> Independent contractors = should get to pick who we want to give rides to without consequences. Email Lyft and tell them you have an allergic reaction to dogs.


Independent contractors (of any kind, not just uber/lyft) don't get to choose to break the law. That's the problem with a lot of uber/lyft drivers, they don't actually know what an independent contractor is. You made the choice to take service animals when you decided to accept the contract to take uber/lyft passengers. All an independent contractor is, is a company (in most driver's case, a sole proprietorship, a single person owned company), that agrees to take a contract to do work for another company (usually a big, corporate type deal). It has nothing to do with getting to choose which jobs you'll take.

In fact, the fact that uber/lyft lets us decline some rides is above and beyond. They don't even HAVE to allow that in their contract. They could change the contract tomorrow to say that we have to take each and every ride as it comes up, and if we agree to the new contract, we'd have to do that. Of course, most drivers wouldn't agree, so they aren't likely to do that (as they'd lose too many drivers at once). Most independent contractors have to take whatever job they are given. Take Xfinity (Comcast) for example. I call and complain that my cable is out. They check their schedule and assign a service guy/gal (usually an independent contractor) to me at a certain time range (like from noon to 4) and sometime between noon and 4 that independent contractor comes (with Xfinity they'll show up around 5, if I'm lucky , on the plus side, I get a $20 bill credit each time that happens, so... win). He/she doesn't get to decide if they want to go to my house or not, they just have to go (it's part of their contract). They also have to follow all applicable laws (like they can't drill into my house without my consent).

Just like some idiots (like at a restaurant) actually believe that they have a right to refuse service for "any reason". They don't bother to educate themselves. You can't violate federal, state or local laws in doing so, and "protected classes" are protected via federal law. You couldn't refuse to drive someone because they are *insert race here*, so why would you be able to refuse someone based on a disability? Btw, allergies, fear of dogs, and religious objections are all (specifically stated as) not being valid reasons to refuse a service dog. You might want to take a little time to read up on it a bit.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

empresstabitha said:


> It depends if the emotional support dog is chosen to perform a task. There are dogs who stop people from hurting themselves, remind them to take pills, help when they are having a panic attack and other things. So, no a typical ESA isn't a service animal, but one trained to perform a task is because it provides a service. They also have to be trained in all the things a typical service animal is trained in.
> 
> Although this ladies was definitely not a service animal because the fact she said it was registered and had papers proves its fake. There is no central registration for service animals. All those online registration documents are bull shit.
> 
> There are dogs trained to stop people from hurting themselves, remind them to take their pills. They are trained to force the person to per them if they're having a panic attack in order to prevent them from doing harm. Dogs can sense things humans can't. But these are all legit task that if her dog was actually trained then she would have stated it.


What you are describing is a service dog, not an emotional support animal. They are two completely different things. An animal being considered an emotional support animal is based on the humans disability and emotional need for the animal, not any training that the animal itself has received or any particular disposition that it has. A rattlesnake can be an ESA. A goldfish could be an ESA.

The process for having your pet certified as an ESA is also different. Again, it's not dependent on the pet, but rather the owner. You have to get a certificate from a doctor stating that you I have developed a very strong bond with this pet and need to be with it for your emotional and psychological health. The only benefit that doing this provides is that you will be able to keep your pet with you, provided it can stay in a carrier and be put under the seat in an airplane, and you can not have a landlord say you cannot have it in the house when you look for an apartment. They also cannot charge you any additional monies or deposits for it.


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## NUBER-LE (Jul 21, 2017)

In CA simply stating your dog is a Service Animal, you must comply.


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## unPat (Jul 20, 2016)

elelegido said:


> The day after Uber reinstated me after suspending me for allegedly "refusing to take a service animal" (the dog was actually an emotional support dog, not a service animal), another young lady tries to get in the car with her emo dog!
> 
> Service dog fraud is really getting out of hand. As Adieu pointed out in another thread, claiming that a non-service animal such as an emo dog is a service dog is a crime punishable by six months in jail and a fine of $1,000. The rideshare companies indirectly support service dog fraud by (a) not making it clear to pax that emo dogs are not service animals and (b) deactivating and suspending drivers when they have done nothing but follow the law. Today Lyft took a leaf out of Uber's book and immediately suspended my account while they "investigate" the false complaint from this pax that I refused to take a service animal:
> 
> ...


It looks like all the scums somehow get filtered to lyft.


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## Ubering around (Oct 15, 2017)

UberLaLa said:


> _1. Is your dog a Service Animal?
> 2. What duty is it trained to perform?
> _
> If rider answers _Yes_ to the first question. But states that it is trained as an _Emotional Support or Therapy Dog_, and you get that on camera, you do not need to take the dog. As was the case in OP's video. But, you very possibly will get Suspended, and possibly even deactivated, since Lyft/Uber do not know the law.


That's why there is courts and lawyers


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

NUBER-LE said:


> In CA simply stating your dog is a Service Animal, you must comply.


Not if they answer the second question incorrectly. And you get it on Video:


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## Erika G. (Mar 10, 2018)

1) Is the *dog* a *service animal* required because of a disability? 2) What work or task has the *dog* been trained to perform? You may not *ask* these *questions* if the need for the *service animal* is obvious. Examples include when a *dog* is guiding an individual who is blind or is pulling a person's wheelchair.


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

Erika G. said:


> 1) Is the *dog* a *service animal* required because of a disability? 2) What work or task has the *dog* been trained to perform? You may not *ask* these *questions* if the need for the *service animal* is obvious. Examples include when a *dog* is guiding an individual who is blind or is pulling a person's wheelchair.


Girl Got Game...


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## Erika G. (Mar 10, 2018)

NJ even has a law that pets, just like kids and people, need to be restrained when in a car.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/new-jersey-drivers-buckle-pets-face-fine-article-1.1090567


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

Erika G. said:


> NJ even has a law that pets, just like kids and people, need to be restrained when in a car.
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/new-jersey-drivers-buckle-pets-face-fine-article-1.1090567


Now that I LOVE! Even Service Dogs?


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## Erika G. (Mar 10, 2018)

UberLaLa said:


> Now that I LOVE! Even Service Dogs?


I don't think it applies to service dogs since a true service dog will curl up at its owners feet and not sit on the lap or roam about the car willy nilly


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

Erika G. said:


> I don't think it applies to service dogs since a true service dog will curl up at its owners feet and not sit on the lap or roam about the car willy nilly


That's good. 

ADD: And all the more reason driver needs to confirm if the dog is a Service Animal or not.


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## Ubernomics (Nov 11, 2015)

Uberfunitis said:


> How can you easily see that someone has seizures from time to time and his little dog has been trained to warn him or her before they happen?


How about...uhh ask! Like he did...what duties has the dog been trained to perform!? If you state seizures and what the dog does your golden.


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

Tony martel said:


> You are in the service business now... When you started doing this job it was to pick up whoever needed a ride to take them where they needed to go and you get paid money to do it... You do not pick and choose.... Now if you absolutely are absolutely allergic to animals.. and you need to talk to Uber and work something out or at least inform your customers that you are so sorry you were so allergic and get them another ride immediately... Course you need to forewarn Uber/lyft that you cannot drive people with animals... Therefore limiting your possibilities all of you complaining about that I have never once in all my years of driving and I've been doing it long before Uber and Lyft would say anything to a customer most of them have well-behaved animals that sit right on their lap or in the floor once in a blue moon one of them might get here on a seat and I go and vacuum it with a Dollar vacuum... It is not going to make or break you to vacuum up something but it will make or break you if you don't stop complaining about your job and stop harassing people who have animals and videotaping them... They have every right to bring their animal with them I don't care if it's a service animal or not if they were going to the veterinarian I've had to do it myself personally and I've never had a problem with any driver so you better get on the ball or get on the stick or go get another job where you can pick and choose that's what I would recommend


So ofnwe can not pick and choose we are employees and not contractors right


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## Erika G. (Mar 10, 2018)

It’s important to first ask “is the animal required because of a disability?”

If they say yes then ask what tasks or service is it trained to perform. 

Therapy or emotional support aren’t considered treatments for a disability. Depression is a disorder, not a disability. You can’t file a disability claim with the state because you’re depressed. Maybe if you’ve gone so far and end up hospitalized but not for the average person walking around with Fido and needing them for “support” 

The key words here are “disability” and “services/tasks”


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## unPat (Jul 20, 2016)

Service dogs are very quiet, calm and don’t show any sign of aggression. Before you ask any wrong questions just observe the dog. You will see the difference between a pet and a service dog.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

UberLaLa said:


> Now that I LOVE! Even Service Dogs?


No. Restraining the animal past whatever restraint the handler uses may prevent the dog from performing certain tasks.

https://www.petcarerx.com/article/buckle-up-your-pets-its-the-law/327


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Driver2448 said:


> Independent contractors = should get to pick who we want to give rides to without consequences. Email Lyft and tell them you have an allergic reaction to dogs.


Independent contractors are not exempt from Federal Law.


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## jlong105 (Sep 15, 2017)

Tony martel said:


> They have every right to bring their animal with them I don't care if it's a service animal or not


DEAD WRONG- They have no right to bring their pet into my car. I will probably allow them to because I like animals, but it is by NO MEANS a RIGHT. Service animals do have a right thanks to the ADA.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

SuzeCB said:


> No. Restraining the animal past whatever restraint the handler uses may prevent the dog from performing certain tasks.
> 
> https://www.petcarerx.com/article/buckle-up-your-pets-its-the-law/327


I have two of these for my pups









And i use harnesses not collars. 
Not having the means to restain your dogs is as bad as those that don't bring car seats for their kids .


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

Personally, I haven't met a dog yet I didn't want to take in my ride. Ironically, I have never gotten a Service Dog. Uber should maybe ask Drivers if they are chill with dogs... 



steveK2016 said:


> I have two of these for my pups
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have had a couple passengers over the years that would have come in handy with!


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

Pawtism said:


> Once it's been trained tasks (such as those you mentioned, along with public access training), it's no longer an ESA, and is now a service dog. All service dog start out as just dogs (which is effectively all an ESA dog is), it's that training that makes them service dogs. As you both stated though, they would have known that and listed their tasks if they had a real service dog.
> 
> Independent contractors (of any kind, not just uber/lyft) don't get to choose to break the law. That's the problem with a lot of uber/lyft drivers, they don't actually know what an independent contractor is. You made the choice to take service animals when you decided to accept the contract to take uber/lyft passengers. All an independent contractor is, is a company (in most driver's case, a sole proprietorship, a single person owned company), that agrees to take a contract to do work for another company (usually a big, corporate type deal). It has nothing to do with getting to choose which jobs you'll take.
> 
> ...


This would turn contractors in to employees....


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

Juggalo9er said:


> This would turn contractors in to employees....


Not really. Having to do independent contractor work for a certain race, color or creed does not make an Independent Contractor an employee.

The ADA Service Dog law really is so those that need the service dog are not discriminated against.

The problem exists with those that fake having a service animal. Unfortunately, drivers get caught in the middle of their mess...


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

UberLaLa said:


> Not really. Having to do independent contractor work for a certain race, color or creed does not make an Independent Contractor an employee.
> 
> The ADA Service Dog law really is so those that need the service dog are not discriminated against.
> 
> The problem exists with those that fake having a service animal. Unfortunately, drivers get caught in the middle of their mess...


Having to take every ride would....


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> This would turn contractors in to employees....


How would a general contractor insisting the subcontractors s/he does business with comply with federal and state laws change the sub into employee status?


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> How would a general contractor insisting the subcontractors s/he does business with comply with federal and state laws change the sub into employee status?


Mandating that a "contractor's accept every job offered does that... not service dogs


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> Mandating that a "contractor's accept every job offered does that... not service dogs


Who said you have to accept every job offered?


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## Taxi tony (Oct 10, 2017)

, next time take the Dog, shut your mouth, and get your $3. Ain't that why you work for Uber anyway?


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

Taxi tony said:


> , next time take the Dog, shut your mouth, and get your $3. Ain't that why you work for Uber anyway?


No _Taxi Tony, _it aint's...


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Juggalo9er said:


> This would turn contractors in to employees....


No, you can still run your business the way you see fit (within the confines of the contract, and the law). For example, some drivers offer mints and water, others don't. If we were employees, uber could tell us that we HAD to offer mints and water (although they'd have to pay for it), or that we couldn't offer mints or water. Anything that isn't contractual or legal requirement, is entirely up to you. Play music / don't play music, put the windows up or down, etc. All your choices.

From a financial (and legal) standpoint, independent contractors are the better option (for the corporation). However, the lack of control does create some problems in some cases. Places like Xfinity have gotten around much of that by having very strict contracts. Other places, simply have to have employees, to exert the level of control they want over them (call centers come to mind). Uber would like more control over us (but are already pushing the envelope for what we'll accept as a contract). If they push us too far, too many drivers decline the contract (leave) and next thing you know they have to surge all the time (which is bad for pretty much everyone but the drivers). So a constant balance is being tested.

I know drivers don't like to hear it, but being an "independent contractor" has never meant you can simply do whatever you want. And Uber aside, federal law is still going to be there for any company (even if you left Uber/Lyft and started your own ride service).

Even if the Uber contract did say we have to take every ride that came up (again, I doubt they'll ever actually try making that a contractual obligation, because frankly, too many drivers would leave if they did), but even if they did, we could still determine when we went online and didn't (an employee couldn't, they'd have a schedule), just as we can determine what part of town to be in (and could go offline until we got back to the part of town we wanted to be in (an employee would have a zone most likely), etc.



steveK2016 said:


> I have two of these for my pups
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have those as well.


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

Pawtism said:


> No, you can still run your business the way you see fit (within the confines of the contract, and the law). For example, some drivers offer mints and water, others don't. If we were employees, uber could tell us that we HAD to offer mints and water (although they'd have to pay for it), or that we couldn't offer mints or water. Anything that isn't contractual or legal requirement, is entirely up to you. Play music / don't play music, put the windows up or down, etc. All your choices.
> 
> From a financial (and legal) standpoint, independent contractors are the better option (for the corporation). However, the lack of control does create some problems in some cases. Places like Xfinity have gotten around much of that by having very strict contracts. Other places, simply have to have employees, to exert the level of control they want over them (call centers come to mind). Uber would like more control over us (but are already pushing the envelope for what we'll accept as a contract). If they push us too far, too many drivers decline the contract (leave) and next thing you know they have to surge all the time (which is bad for pretty much everyone but the drivers). So a constant balance is being tested.
> 
> ...


I know you Are giving a nice opinion.... I'm simply quoting the irs

I guess roofing contractors must accept every job as well...o wait they are real contractors


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Juggalo9er said:


> I know you Are giving a nice opinion.... I'm simply quoting the irs
> 
> I guess roofing contractors must accept every job as well...o wait they are real contractors


You dont have to accept every Uber job, you can have a 1% acceptance rate and you'll continue to have access to the app. Once you accept it, you agreed to the contract. If you reject most offers, they are entitled to say "why do i bother offering you anything?"

If a roofing contractor agrees to the contract then renigs for whatever reason, not only would the general contractor have the grounds to sue but is also entitled to never offer that contractor jobs in the future.

If that roofing contractor always rejects all offers, eventually thwt general contractor wont bother sending you request; unless youre the only roofing contractor in town. I know for a fact that Mexican roofers and framers from Atlanta Georgia will drive to northern Nashville TN suburbs (5 hour drive) and work with a crew of 8 chulos (they drive up in a huge ecoline van and cram in 1 hotel room) to knockout framing and roofing a house in a week.

You are certainly not the only transportation contractor in town.

Uber wont sue You for breach of contract but they are entitled to not send you offers anymore.

Being deactivated just means You lose access to offers for transportation services. You were not fired, you can drive livery services as a self employed individual (as you always have been) to the extent that your insurance and local regulations will allow.


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Juggalo9er said:


> I know you Are giving a nice opinion.... I'm simply quoting the irs
> 
> I guess roofing contractors must accept every job as well...o wait they are real contractors


Black's is a bit vauge about it.

https://thelawdictionary.org/independent-contractor/

But here is a better definition.

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=939

Note that the IRS does, in fact, look hard at "independent contractor" claims (as both business and "employees" try to avoid tax rules and such). They have deemed that Uber drivers are, in fact, independent contractors.

Roofers, once having accepted a contract, are, in fact, held to honor that contract. Just as we are. You're mistaking each ride as a separate contract. Our contract is with Uber / Lyft (under the terms and conditions), we are their "subcontractor". To put it in roofing terms, I need my roof done, I contact XYZ Roofing, and they accept a contract with me to redo my roof for say 5,000 bucks. They subcontract out to some other company to actually climb up on my roof, haul the tar up and down, ect. The other company doesn't get to say "we don't want to fix the roof of THAT house, we don't like the neighborhood it's in", their contract with XYZ says "go to house, haul stuff, work on roof". I am the pax, Uber is XYZ Roofing, and you are that other company.

The pax have a contract with Uber (not you), which is why uber can charge them a different rate than what they are paying you. I admit it's not what "rideshare" was originally setup as, but frankly it was illegal as it was originally setup, this is what it has become to become legitimate.


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

Pawtism said:


> Black's is a bit vauge about it.
> 
> https://thelawdictionary.org/independent-contractor/
> 
> ...


Or just look at its form ss-8.... accepting All rides would be just over the threshold


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

I see nothing on SS-8 that says one way or the other, it's a relatively subjective form so that some auditor can determine if it's legitimately an independent contractor situation or not. I'm sure they have some guidelines to help them somewhere, but it's not like "if this is checked then, fail!"

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf

The IRS has actually ruled on Uber / Lyft, but perhaps more importantly, on a much older situation, taxis. Most of them are independent contractors, but most of them still have to take whatever they are dispatched to (either because of a local law, or because of their contract). This debate has already been asked and answered by the IRS, long ago.

Be glad we don't (and most likely won't) ever have to worry about that, you know?


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

Pawtism said:


> I see nothing on SS-8 that says one way or the other, it's a relatively subjective form so that some auditor can determine if it's legitimately an independent contractor situation or not. I'm sure they have some guidelines to help them somewhere, but it's not like "if this is checked then, fail!"
> 
> https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf
> 
> The IRS has actually ruled on Uber / Lyft, but perhaps more importantly, on a much older situation, taxis. Most of them are independent contractors, but most of them still have to take whatever they are dispatched to (either because of a local law, or because of their contract). This debate has already been asked and answered by the IRS, long ago.


Point in case I was a truck driver, owned my semi.... worked for fee ex as a "contractor"....irs deemed me an employee as I had no control over where I was going....kinda like ya know uber


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## Pawtism (Aug 22, 2017)

Juggalo9er said:


> Point in case I was a truck driver, owned my semi.... worked for fee ex as a "contractor"....irs deemed me an employee as I had no control over where I was going....kinda like ya know uber


See, I had the exact opposite experience. I was also a truck driver (just had to give up my CDL about 7 months ago, although I hadn't driven a rig in many, many years), but I was an employee (instead of an O/O) for triple C (Crete Carrier Corp). As an employee, I still got to pick where I wanted to go (within reason), whatever was available on the board through the Qualcom (do they even still use those?), I could take my pick of. Usually had at least 3 options. The O/Os (for those wondering, O/O = Owner / Operator, in other words, they owned and drove their own rig, like Juggalo) always got priority on it, so they likely had even more options than I did. So I suppose it depends what company you were working for.

I'm glad the IRS ruled in your favor on that one. But they've already had many complaints filed and have ruled that Uber drivers, are in fact independent contractors. Taxi drivers are a good example too, that is a very long standing situation, and they are independent contractors (unless they are actually employees, as in, hired as employees, and have a set schedule and what not) as well.

The two situations aren't exactly equal.


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## flyntflossy10 (Jun 2, 2017)

Beur said:


> If some produces a certificate they have purchased it off the internet.


Paying a hundred bucks makes some people believe they are suddenly disabled.


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