# Is it fair to talk about fare cuts without also talking about expense cuts?



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

COST OF GAS
Cleveland, OH​
July 2015 - $2.75/gal
Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
*That's a 42% drop in price of an expense we all bear.*
In my market, does a 25% fare cut have as much of an impact as I think?
Even if it doesn't make up for all of what I lose in earnings, is it disingenuous of me to talk about the fare cuts without also talking about the expense drop?

I'm curious what everyone here thinks...
Please give it a little thought before just lashing out - I'm not trying to start a war...
just asking the question.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Gas has gone down from about $3.00 to roughly 1.90 in my market, a similar percentage decrease BUT gas is just one part of the expense and a small one to boot. Lets assume I get 20 miles to the gallon, It used to cost 15 cents a mile, now it's 9.5 cents, a 5.5 cent reduction. Everything else has stayed the same. Rates here have gone from $1.20 a mile to .70 in the same time, obliterating any savings I may have in gas.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Disgusted Driver said:


> gas is just one part of the expense and a small one to boot.


Thanks - that's the discussion I wanted to have and see how others are looking at it.

I drive around 500 miles week doing Uber.
500 miles/wk @20MPG = 25 gallons of gas.

I know it's different for everyone based on a lot of factors, but for me fuel is 75% of my cost (because I own my car, it's mostly depreciated and I have no additional insurance costs... just repairs and maintenance).

So for me, the 500 miles/wk that used to cost me around $90 (incl fuel), or $0.18/mi now costs me around $70 (incl fuel), or $0.14/mi... 
That's a 25% drop in my total cost.

That '25%' sounds familiar to me, hehe. 
Here in CLE, the recent fare cut for X was from $1.10/mi to $.077/mi.

On a side note: I still drive SELECT (about 20% of my rides), which has not [yet] been effected by fare cuts...
which means *the drop in fuel cost for SELECT rides has resulted in a significant net increase in my earnings* for SELECT.

Anyone else care to run some numbers and share your results?


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

My Prius gets 40-42 mpg, so gas is a very minor cost. Even given that and the 1.35/mile rates here, there is pitiful profit in driving for Uber at non-surge rates, so the reduction in gas expense is a minuscule factor in the profitability of my business. A 25 percent cut in rates would make profitability nearly impossible.


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## volksie (Apr 8, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> COST OF GAS
> Cleveland, OH​
> July 2015 - $2.75/gal
> Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
> ...


It was mid 2015 when gas was $4.29-$4.69 or so per gallon in San Diego. The fares were not adjusted for the increase.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

volksie said:


> It was mid 2015 when gas was $4.29-$4.69 or so per gallon in San Diego. The fares were not adjusted for the increase.


CLE:
went from $2.25 Dec 2014 [edit: TYPO ALERT... that should be $1.25]
to $0.90 Jan 2015
to $1.10 Jul 2015
to $0.77 Jan 2016.


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## RightTurnClyde (Dec 9, 2015)

Yes good post OP!

Fuel is a commodity that in recent times has had wild highs and lows in the eyes of consumer prices. IMO comparing lower fuel costs "in the moment" versus "Uber's driver pay drops" is not seeing the big picture. I've yet to see uber follow higher fuel prices with an increase in driver rates, thus an honest comparison cannot be made or inferred. Their rate analysis is calculated to dominant and grow the market and has never been tied to drivers cost. Like all of us, I'm glad gas prices are low; but I also know that these prices are temporary so enjoy it while you can and plan for when prices rise again.


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## XUberMike (Aug 2, 2015)

You guys come on over to here to So Cal where you can still spend on average $2.75 for pool unleaded while select & black @ surge prices of over $3.00+ a gallon.

X here is $.090 a mile and $.015 a minute...less for pool rides


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RightTurnClyde said:


> I've yet to see uber follow higher fuel prices with an increase in driver rates,


Look at my post, above. Raising fares is exactly what Uber did here last July, just as gas prices peaked.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

XUberMike said:


> You guys come on over to here to So Cal where you can still spend on average $2.75 for pool unleaded while select & black @ surge prices of over $3.00+ a gallon.


Not sure what you mean... X is $0.09/mi? surge per gallon?
In my market, SELECT and Black Car rates were not cut (even though premium gas is now 33% lower than it was 2 months ago).


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## XUberMike (Aug 2, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Not sure what you mean... X is $0.09/mi? surge per gallon?
> In my market, SELECT and Black Car rates were not cut (even though premium gas is now 33% lower than it was 2 months ago).


Sorry cheap attempt at humor
UBERX cars regular unleaded bout $2.75 gallon
Selects that need premium unleaded over $3.00 a gallon

UBERX gets $.090 a mile and $.015 a minute.


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## volksie (Apr 8, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Look at my post, above. Raising fares is exactly what Uber did here last July, just as gas prices peaked.


Your post was wrong for San Diego! X was $1.25 at the end of 2014 and then it was chopped for the 2015 winter warm up.
The post winter warm up raise to $1.10 had NOTHING to do with gas prices! During those high gas prices I drove XL exclusively.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

volksie said:


> Your post was wrong for San Diego! X was $1.25 at the end of 2014 and then it was chopped for the 2015 winter warm up.
> The post winter warm up raise to $1.10 had NOTHING to do with gas prices! During those high gas prices I drove XL exclusively.


I didn't post anything historical about San Diego - so it couldn't be wrong. 
I posted historical info only for my market - and asked others to comment on their own experience.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

XUberMike said:


> Sorry cheap attempt at humor
> UBERX cars regular unleaded bout $2.75 gallon
> Selects that need premium unleaded over $3.00 a gallon
> 
> UBERX gets $.090 a mile and $.015 a minute.


Ah... gotchya
but I think you've still got an error in your decimal point:
Detroit is the lowest in the US at $0.30/mi ... nobody in the US is at "$0.090 a mile" [yet]


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## Aztek98 (Jul 23, 2015)

Our fuel cost reductions do not scale to our fare reductions.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aztek98 said:


> Our fuel cost reductions do not scale to our fare reductions.


That's why I was asking... because ours do (for UberX/XL) - and in our market SELECT and BLACK fares didn't change.
As I said earlier though - the 'scale' really depends on the individual driver's total expenses. For driver's whose cost of fuel is a higher % of their total expenses, the drop in fuels costs is a more significant drop inoperating cost than a driver's whose fuel costs is a lower % of their total cost of operation.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

i brought a new car not uber lease. whats my reduction....$500 month . my reduction is balls, as its higher cost to have safer newer car.oh ya my ins went up with that new car.....and news flash being over 50+ gas wont stay low for long.


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## sidewazzz (Jun 30, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> COST OF GAS
> Cleveland, OH​
> July 2015 - $2.75/gal
> Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
> ...


You would be correct if gas was the only overhead but the reality is its probably only about 30 to 40% so your numbers are way off.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

bobby747 said:


> i brought a new car not uber lease. whats my reduction....$500 month . my reduction is balls, as its higher cost to have safer newer car.oh ya my ins went up with that new car.....and news flash being over 50+ gas wont stay low for long.


Your tone is argumetantive - and I'm not sure why...
no one is arguing anything here, we're sharing information to see how somethng effects different drivers in different circumsatnces in different locations.

I have no idea what a 'reduction' is (unless in it's in a sauce pan). Care to explain?
Also no idea what "_i brought a new car not unber lease_" means. Please clasrify...
are you saying you bought a NEW car just to driver Uber?

And News Flash - I'm older than you -
And gas prices aren't going anywhere in the next several months.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

sidewazzz said:


> You would be correct if gas was the only overhead but the reality is its probably only about 30 to 40% so your numbers are way off.


Read my post... that's EXACTLY what I said... 
fuel is only a portion of expenses, so the drop in fuel prices will have a different impact on drivers based on their individual cost of operation.


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

no other company takes gas prices into consideration to decide pay, they have never been related since private expenses have nothing to do with pay esp when the company never paid for gas in the first place


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

dnlbaboof said:


> no other company takes gas prices into consideration to decide pay, they have never been related since private expenses have nothing to do with pay esp when the company never paid for gas in the first place


That doesn't mean that Uber and/or Lyft don't take expenses (including fuel) into consideration when they set rates (fares).
If gas were to go to $10/gal tomorrow, do you think that there would be any drivers on the road unless there was a fare increase?


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That doesn't mean that Uber and/orLyft don't take expenses (including fuel) into consideration when they set rates.
> 
> If gas were to go to $10/gal tomorrow, do you think that there would be any drivers on the road unless their was a fare increase?


their expenses have nothing to do with the price of gas, maybe a drastic change like 10 fold increase would cause them to do something, but most companies fight for good working conditions, not uber, they are driving the price down because they want people to ditch cars period for uber (the ceo said this on facebook), increase demand in jan(they said this on their blog), and put lyft under (they wont cop to this but its obvious). The slight fluctuations in gas have no effect on their pay per mile rates.

And gas rates are down but car depreciation will always be a bigger cost, so uber can never justify the record low rates per mile when that were 3 times as high 2 years ago.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That's why I was asking... because ours do (for UberX/XL) - and in our market SELECT and BLACK fares didn't change.
> As I said earlier though - the 'scale' really depends on the individual driver's total expenses. For driver's whose cost of fuel is a higher % of their total expenses, the drop in fuels costs is a more significant drop inoperating cost than a driver's whose fuel costs is a lower % of their total cost of operation.


Also take into account that the tax deduction will be less per mile this year, meaning more taxes will be paid on each dollar you receive from uber. Small difference, but still there.

If you are part time and can make a decent per mile income (due to busy times, less dead miles and more surge) then changes in gas prices don't affect you as much. If you are full time and making very little per mile then they make more if a difference, but since you're going broke anyway...

I'm speaking for x only. I don't think there are many places where x rates and the surplus of drivers make it worthwhile to work full time anymore.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

dnlbaboof said:


> no other company takes gas prices into consideration to decide pay, they have never been related since private expenses have nothing to do with pay esp when the company never paid for gas in the first place


Many pizza places tie their gas allowance paid to drivers to gas prices.


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## ROYALSAVAGE (Oct 8, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> My Prius gets 40-42 mpg, so gas is a very minor cost. Even given that and the 1.35/mile rates here, there is pitiful profit in driving for Uber at non-surge rates, so the reduction in gas expense is a minuscule factor in the profitability of my business. A 25 percent cut in rates would make profitability nearly impossible.


In December 2016 fuel accounted for 15% of my revenue. So since I got a 25 % cut in revenue . I guess I should be happy that fuel has gone down eight cents. Declining revenue cannot be offset by A single declining expenses. all we are doing is working more hours to make the same rebuke while creating more wear and tear on the human body , our vehicles etc. you cannot offset this by declining fuel prices fuel is only one component of expense . You need to look at the totality of expenses and direct operating cost against revenue which again has declined 25% . My revenue is down 25% increasing my percentage expense of fuel as a portion of revenue.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

ROYALSAVAGE said:


> In December 2016 fuel accounted for 15% of my revenue. So since I got a 25 % cut in revenue . I guess I should be happy that fuel has gone down eight cents. Declining revenue cannot be offset by A single declining expenses. all we are doing is working more hours to make the same rebuke while creating more wear and tear on the human body , our vehicles etc. you cannot offset this by declining fuel prices fuel is only one component of expense . You need to look at the totality of expenses and direct operating cost against revenue which again has declined 25% . My revenue is down 25% increasing my percentage expense of fuel as a portion of revenue.


I feel for all you who have suffered these pay cuts. I don't know how you can make any money at rates under $1.35 per mile. Margins are mighty thin at $1.35.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Also take into account that the tax deduction will be less per mile this year, meaning more taxes will be paid on each dollar you receive from uber. Small difference, but still there.


Shoud be no difference at all for most drivers unless they are getting paid for every mile they drive. I know that even trying to be efficient, I still only get paid for 1 out of 2 miles... sometimes only 1 out of three. I have yet to drive a month where my std deduction was not more than my earnings.


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## Altima ATL (Jul 13, 2015)

Other than the cost of gas, is there any other expense cost that has been reduced?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Altima ATL said:


> Other than the cost of gas, is there any other expense cost that has been reduced?


I reduced my expense by using a different car for UberX than I do for UberSELECT. But the single biggest 'expense' drivers have is their unpaid miles... the deahead miles driven while working that do not have a paying customer in the car. If you drive a total of 200 miles in a day and your fares total only 100 miles, you have effectively cut your own earnings per mile in half. That (I believe) is the biggest part of the TNC sham.


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## Altima ATL (Jul 13, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I reduced my expense by using a different car for UberX than I do for UberSELECT. But the single biggest 'expense' drivers have is their unpaid miles... the deahead miles driven while working that do not have a paying customer in the car. If you drive a total of 200 miles in a day and your fares total only 100 miles, you have effectively cut your own earnings per mile in half. That (I believe) is the biggest part of the TNC sham.


I totally agree, and I normally work out in the suburbs. So actually achieving a 2 to 1 ratio on total to paid miles is quite a challenge.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Altima ATL said:


> Other than the cost of gas, is there any other expense cost that has been reduced?


Uber and Lyft lowered FARES that riders pay for trips, not 'pay'. The effect is a lower cost to the consumer that reflects lower fuel costs - *and results in lower earnings to drivers *(who, to varying degrees) have lower expenses with lower fuel costs... see below. But they did not lower 'PAY' rates which remain at 70% - 80% of the fare. 
*Check that: I'm wrong there... They did lower the base and time fare portions - which have nothing to do with any reduction in expenses.*

Don't intepret my looking at this as my 'approval' of lower fares resulting in decreased earnings per mile for drivers... that's not at all what I am saying. I'm just trying to look at the whole picture instead of my own bias as a driver.


Fuzzyelvis said:


> Many pizza places tie their gas allowance paid to drivers to gas prices.


True - and the fares for all travel (air, bus, train) are also tied to fuel costs... as are delivery rates and trucking.


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## Altima ATL (Jul 13, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Uber and Lyft lowered FARES that riders pay for trips, not 'pay'. The effect is a lower cost to the consumer that reflects lower fuel costs - *and results in lower earnings to drivers *(who, to varying degrees) have lower expenses with lower fuel costs... see below. But they did not lower 'PAY' rates which remain at 70% - 80% of the fare.
> *Check that: I'm wrong there... They did lower the base and time fare portions - which have nothing to do with any reduction in expenses.*
> 
> Don't intepret my looking at this as my 'approval' of lower fares resulting in decreased earnings per mile for drivers... that's not at all what I am saying. I'm just trying to look at the whole picture instead of my own bias as a driver.
> ...


From what I understand of your post what you are saying is (let me elucidate a little):

Cost per mile of driving a car is 40cents of which 20 cents is gas.

Gas price falls by 50% making cost per mile of 30cents - a 25% decrease.

So you are saying that a per mile cost to the rider is OK for a 25% reduction.

Does not make sense.

Was $1 per mile - minus 40cpm - was making 60cpm

Now $0.75 per mile minus 30cpm - now rate after mileage expenses is 45cpm.

Am I missing something here?

This is the reality in the Atlanta market.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Altima ATL said:


> From what I understand of your post what you are saying is (let me elucidate a little):
> 
> Cost per mile of driving a car is 40cents of which 20 cents is gas.
> 
> ...


That's not what I said - or the conculsion I drew
(which applied only to my own personal circumstance).

You can do whatever math is specific to your own situation - and please post what you come up with so everyone can compare.
The ONLY thing I am suggesting is that we as drivers (including me) complain about anything that reduces our earnings...
but rarely talk about the things that reduce our expenses (which in turn increases our earnings).
IMO, we can't honestly talk about one, without also taking into account the other.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Shoud be no difference at all for most drivers unless they are getting paid for every mile they drive. I know that even trying to be efficient, I stiull onl get paid for 1 out of 2 miles... sometimes only 1 out of three. I have yet to drive a month where my std deduction was not more than my earnings.


If a trip takes 10 miles including dead miles you used to have a $5.75 tax deduction. Now it's $5.40. You pay taxes on $0.35 more than you did last year. All else being equal, you will end up with less money due to the extra taxes.

If you have more deducted than you took home then it will offset your other income. I suppose if you HAVE no other income and your ubering is a complete loss then it would make no difference.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

I don't understand this post at all... can you explain?


dnlbaboof said:


> their expenses have nothing to do with the price of gas


It's not about 'their expense' - it's about 'drivers expenses'.


> ... most companies fight for good working conditions, not uber,


Huh? Most (large) companies are forced in to decent working conditions either by organized labor or government regulation - or both. I'm not usre I can think of a single company that has ever started a "fight for good working conditions".



> The slight fluctuations in gas have no effect on their pay per mile rates.


First - 40%-50% is not 'slight', and second, as Fuzzyelvis pointed out earlier, MANY companies have their prices tied to the cost of the commodities that are a significant portion of the cost of their operations... and oil is a commodity.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> If a trip takes 10 miles including dead miles you used to have a $5.75 tax deduction. Now it's $5.40. You pay taxes on $0.35 more than you did last year. All else being equal, you will end up with less money due to the extra taxes.
> 
> If you have more deducted than you took home then it will offset your other income. I suppose if you HAVE no other income and your ubering is a complete loss then it would make no difference.


As I said, I have never had a week of driving where the std deduction was less than my actual expense. And that won't change (for me) with the 4% reduction in the std mileage deduction. And if it is less for someone else, then they should deduct 'actual' expenses rather than use the std deduction.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ROYALSAVAGE said:


> In December 2016 fuel accounted for 15% of my revenue. So since I got a 25 % cut in revenue . I guess I should be happy that fuel has gone down eight cents.


NJ gas prices have gone down by $0.13 in just the last 60 days - close to 10% ... 
15% in the last 90 days - and 35% since July (when fares were last increased in my market).


> Declining revenue cannot be offset by A single declining expenses


Agreed - but that's not what I have suggested or even asked anyone to consider.
The fact is that we can't just look at how lower fares impact our earnings - while ignoring how lower expenses also impact our earnings.

By taking a biased, 'blind' view of earnings, we are doing exactly what we complain about Uber doing: picking and choosing our 'story'. And that's why I asked the question in the title of this thread.

BTW - you said that in Dec, fuel was "15% of your revenues". Did you mean gross earnings from Uber or total revenues? (My tips avg 20% of my gorss earnings... if yours are anywhere near that, then fuel is actually a lower % of your revenues, right?)


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

My XL hard fuel cost has dropped about 7 cents a mile in the last year and a half plus since I started.

The mile rate for UberX std. in that same time frame has dropped double that amount.

So it's a no win comparison for the drivers no matter how ya slice it.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

I agree - I wouldn't call it a 'win' at all...
but it's also not quite the loss we make it out to be when we decry fare decreases and pretend that cost decreases shouldn't be considered in the final tally. I may be no further ahead than I was six months ago - but I'm not much further behind, either. yEmv


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

the bottom line is ubers intent. There is no evidence they reduced rates because of falling gas prices, they say on record they are doing it because of low demand in january and because they want the rides to be so cheap people ditch their cars period. And of course Lyft is competition. So the evidence is that even if gas prices didnt go down, ubers rates would still go down.

Its unprecedented for a large corporation who has billions in cash to take expenses that they don't even pay for into consideration. If google realized their workers were spending much less on their commute they wouldnt cut salaries in response, its just very unususal and there is no evidence Uber took that into consideration, and if they did than it proves they are an awful company.

Also saying that the price cuts are ok because of falling gas prices is not accurate since even before the falling gas prices and rate cuts we were underpaid when you take into consideration the wear and tear on your car etc. They were already charging 1/3 the price of a taxi, now we at like 1/6th.......


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## Troubleshooter (Jan 27, 2016)

In Cleveland, at least 10 Uber Drivers that I have met will no longer drive for Uber because it isn't worth it to them especially if they drive an SUV or drive part time. At least 5 are now driving Lyft and several others are driving both. Reaching out to Uber has not helped so I don't try any longer.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

dnlbaboof said:


> the bottom line is ubers intent. There is no evidence they reduced rates because of falling gas prices


I have to disagree. For me, the bottom line is what I deposit in the bank each week.
I couldnt' care less what Uber or Lyft's 'intent' is.

The question I posed in the thread title has nothing to do with the TNCs - it has to do with us - drivers, as business people and what is a proper way to evaluate the finances of your business. For this thread - this topic - the bottom line is "do you look at both your revenues AND your expenses to determine your _return-on-invesment_ or do you just fly by the seat of your pants and feel like a yo-yo on the end of a string being pulled by the TNC?


> Also saying that the price cuts are ok because...


No idea where that came from at all... maybe I missed something.
Can you show me any post here from anyone that said that 'price cuts are ok'?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Troubleshooter said:


> In Cleveland, at least 10 Uber Drivers that I have met will no longer drive for Uber because it isn't worth it to them especially if they drive an SUV or drive part time. At least 5 are now driving Lyft and several others are driving both. Reaching out to Uber has not helped so I don't try any longer.


In Cleveland, there seem to be many fewer X cars in the airport que (at the cell lot). But up until a couple of days ago there were still plenty of x cars everywhere else. The last two days I've seen fewer cars available - but also very light demand. You're right - I'm hearing from a lot of Uber X drivers who are now signing up with Lyft... but I don't see the point since Lyft is now at $$0.81/mi (vs Uber at $0.77) and in general yo have to drive far more miles to pick-up a Lyft rider than with Uber.


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## Troubleshooter (Jan 27, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I have to disagree. For me, the bottom line is what I deposit in the bank each week.
> I couldnt' care less what Uber or Lyft's 'intent' is.
> 
> The question I posed in the thread title has nothing to do with the TNCs - it has to do with us - drivers, as business people and what is a proper way to evaluate the finances of your business. For this thread - this topic - the bottom line is "do you look at both your revenues AND your expenses to determine your _return-on-invesment_ or do you just fly by the seat of your pants and feel like a yo-yo on the end of a string being pulled by the TNC?
> ...


Price cuts are NOT ok under any circumstances. This s simply ruining Uber's name and reputation and is keeping driver referrals at a minimum and treating Drivers like slaves


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## Troubleshooter (Jan 27, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> In Cleveland, there seem to be many fewer X cars in the airport que (at the cell lot). But up until a couple of days ago there were still plenty of x cars everywhere else. The last two days I've seen fewer cars available - but also very light demand. You're right - I'm hearing from a lot of Uber X drivers who are now signing up with Lyft... but I don't see the point since Lyft is now at $$0.81/mi (vs Uber at $0.77) and in general yo have to drive far more miles to pick-up a Lyft rider than with Uber.


At one time there were as many as 20 or more Uber cars at the airport however there are very few now. One reason to drive lift if you were activated after 9/15 is that Uber now takes 25% of X and Lyft still takes only 20%. I agree with you about expenses as well. If you do the math using today's numbers, you are netting much less than before. Problem now is that they make the rules and until they change them which I predict they will, Drive at your own peril.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Troubleshooter said:


> Price cuts are NOT ok under any circumstances.


riiiight.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Troubleshooter said:


> At one time there were as many as 20 or more Uber cars at the airport however there are very few now. One reason to drive lift if you were activated after 9/15 is that Uber now takes 25% of X and Lyft still takes only 20%. I agree with you about expenses as well. If you do the math using today's numbers, you are netting much less than before. Problem now is that they make the rules and until they change them which I predict they will, Drive at your own peril.


Good point about the commision/fees - even if it only applies to a small group of drivers who signed up within the last 3 months.
BTW - I did do the math (as published above) and that's what made me start the thread... becuase the math sowed me that I wasn't taking quite as big a hit in the bottom line as I initially thought I was.


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I have to disagree. For me, the bottom line is what I deposit in the bank each week.
> I couldnt' care less what Uber or Lyft's 'intent' is.
> 
> The question I posed in the thread title has nothing to do with the TNCs - it has to do with us - drivers, as business people and what is a proper way to evaluate the finances of your business. For this thread - this topic - the bottom line is "do you look at both your revenues AND your expenses to determine your _return-on-invesment_ or do you just fly by the seat of your pants and feel like a yo-yo on the end of a string being pulled by the TNC?
> ...


ok so even with the gas prices down I dont see a return on my investment so I basically quit, I drive like 5 days a month when I used to go everyday. great strategy by uber, the price cuts have been mitigated by the falling gas prices, its helped me so much that I only drive now when Im bored as hell as a hobby


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

dnlbaboof said:


> ok so even with the gas prices down I dont see a return on my investment so I basically quit, I drive like 5 days a month when I used to go everyday. great strategy by uber, the price cuts have been mitigated by the falling gas prices, its helped me so much that I only drive now when Im bored as hell as a hobby


A lot of (most?) drivers feel the same way you do.
My own experience is mixed - and a little surprsing to me. Have to qualify it first by saying I have two cars on my Uber app - one is X only and the other is SELECT which can accept X requests. Before the fare cuts, I rarely drove the SELECT car becuase I didn't want to put more miles on it than necessary. Post fare cuts I took a hard look at when and where I was driving - and changed my 'strategy'. I now drive in 'better' areas and at high volume times, and I use the SELECT car at the peak 'business' and 'dinner' hours on weekends. By doing that I can get my weekly ride ratio to 20% SELECT and 80% X. Because I am being more selective with when I drive, I am now picking up surges - which is something I just didn't care about before.

In the 1o+ days since the fare cuts, my weekly earnings have remained the same as before the fare cuts 
(I shoot for around $400-$450 + tips, driving after work and a little on weekends).
But what really surprised me is that I'm actually driving fewer hours. Go figger.

That's what led me to compare my expenses from last summer to what they are now (with lower gas prices) - and that led to posting the thread here.

I know that many drivers already have maxed out their driving 'strategy' - and minimized their expenses - and don't have the option to drive SELECT (which makes all the difference)... so my results are unique to me and ymmv. Still, it was an interesting study for me. (Not that I ever want to have to *think* this hard about a part-time gig that pays so terribly.)


----------



## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> As I said, I have never had a week of driving where the std deduction was less than my actual expense. And that won't change (for me) with the 4% reduction in the std mileage deduction. And if it is less for someone else, then they should deduct 'actual' expenses rather than use the std deduction.


I must be totally not following you. In any case in my market our rate went down by 23 cents. The time went down by 4 cents/minute. If we assume that it takes 2 minutes to go one mile then it's a rate reduction of 31 cents/mile (24.8 cents/mile for me--although ANY wait time is also less so in the end it's even more of a pay cut).

I get 24 miles/gallon on average. So to go one mile at current gas prices which are very cheap here ($1.46 by my house outside of Houston) it costs me 6.08 cents. If gas doubled it would cost me 12.16 cents per mile. To be at the same level as before the last cut, as far as gas expense vs. income, gas would have to be 24.8 cents per mile more expensive than now. In other words 30.88 cents per mile, or $7.41 per gallon.

So clearly the cut in pay is FAR more than the lowered gas prices have helped, even with gas cheaper than almost anywhere else in the country.

You also, if you're going to go down this path, need to take into account the fact that inflation is still making maintenance and repairs go up all the time. Gas may have gone down, but that has not trickled down in lower costs for other expenses.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Price cuts probably serve well to run the ignorant drivers out of business over time. Starve them out so to speak. It's unfortunate that there are so many willing to donate their time and vehicles to eventually belly up and out.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> I must be totally not following you. In any case in my market our rate went down by 23 cents. The time went down by 4 cents/minute. If we assume that it takes 2 minutes to go one mile then it's a rate reduction of 31 cents/mile (24.8 cents/mile for me--although ANY wait time is also less so in the end it's even more of a pay cut).
> 
> I get 24 miles/gallon on average. So to go one mile at current gas prices which are very cheap here ($1.46 by my house outside of Houston) it costs me 6.08 cents. If gas doubled it would cost me 12.16 cents per mile. To be at the same level as before the last cut, as far as gas expense vs. income, gas would have to be 24.8 cents per mile more expensive than now. In other words 30.88 cents per mile, or $7.41 per gallon.
> 
> ...


*I agree that the drop in fuel does not make up for the drop in earnings per mile* - I've only suggested that you can't look only at a cut in earnings per mile without also looking at a cut in expenses per mile. To do so is disinegnuous and makes things look worse than they really are, for no reason (becuase they are bad enough already!).

Not real math there, I'm afraid. You can't just take the first mile of a trip...
you have to take a whole period - like a month, or a year - then total your actual expenses (fuel, repairs, amintenance, depreciation), total your gross earnings and then divide that by your total miles driven (not just 'paid' miles).
Then you have to multiply your total miles driven by the std deduction allowance ($0.55/mi for 2016).

My example (which applies only to me!) is that of driving 500 miles/wk.
My toal cost to drive those 500 miles:
Depreciation, Repairs/Maint- $10/wk
_ much, much lower than most folks: I paid $2,000 for my X car and
will spend another $1,000 over 24 months to keep it on the road._
Fuel is now costing me $37.50/wk (at 20 MPG & $1.50/gal)​My weekly earnings average $425 before cash tips.
-----------------------------------------------------
So - my weekly total cost to earn that $425 is
$10 +$37.50 + $10 in a car wash + my time (which for me [only] has no value, as it's my 'free time')​= $57.50 (0.12/mil - yeah I know - that's much, much lower than most people)

500 miles X the std deduction of $0.55/mi = $275...
that's more than a 478% difference from my actual expense.

In essence, I'm spending $.0115/mi - and getting paid $1.176/mi + tips...
and my net earnings are $1.176 revenue - $0.115 expense = $1.061/mi + tips

...and then the IRS is paying me $217.50/wk ($0.55- $0.115 = $0.435/mi).

That's the big picture. (for me)

Yes - under this scenario I would be liable for self employment taxes on the profit of $150 (about $30/wk in tax) -
but I manage to come up with enough additional legitimate deductions to eliminate most or all of that each year.

If your actual total expense is lower than $0.55/mi, then the more actual total miles you drive for work, the greater the impact of the std deduction since it is a higher % of the total expenses than the actual per mi expense incurred.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

We have to take your word you making $425 off of 500miles, that's an extremely low paid /dead mile ratio. How much is your pay per mile? The 12cent/mile number is borderline unbelievable. And gas is $1.50 where you are at?


You say you'll pay $1,000 over 24 months for maintenance. 1 major engine or transmission problem could hit your number. Your scenario is possible, but probably represents less than 1% of all drivers


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Bart McCoy said:


> We have to take your word you making $425 off of 500miles, that's an extremely low paid /dead mile ratio.


Not really... I used 1:2... some weeks it's as high as 1:3, others a bit lower. But the average I've seen over 2,000 trips is about 2 miles driven for each one paid.



> The 12cent/mile number is borderline unbelievable. And gas is $1.50 where you are at?


Yeah - I know, right! The car is not a typical circumstance for most drivers - as I mentioned, it cost me next to nothing and I may even be able to sell it in a year for more than I paid for it.











> Your scenario is possible, but probably represents less than 1% of all drivers


I acknowledged that in my post... and specifically said the numbers I presented applied ONLY to me.
You can plug in whatever expesne numbers you have and do the math for yourself, based on your own revenues, earnings and expenses.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

what is your per mile rate Mike Cleveland?


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

i brought a new car for me micheal. i got 5000k trips. you saying 2000 trips and 2 miles each 4000 miles . god bless you buddy. i got alot more than that.i would guess without looking at numbers. i got 20,000 miles plus on over 5k trips.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

bobby747 said:


> i brought a new car for me micheal. i got 5000k trips. you saying 2000 trips and 2 miles each 4000 miles . god bless you buddy. i got alot more than that.i would guess without looking at numbers. i got 20,000 miles plus on over 5k trips.


thank you sir, your post is much closer to reality


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Bart McCoy said:


> what is your per mile rate Mike Cleveland?


For X they are now a dismal $012/min/$.077/mi/$1 base


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

bobby747 said:


> i brought a new car for me micheal. i got 5000k trips. you saying 2000 trips and 2 miles each 4000 miles . god bless you buddy. i got alot more than that.i would guess without looking at numbers. i got 20,000 miles plus on over 5k trips.


That's not what I said. I am currently only driving ~500 miles/wk.
Last year I was driving more - and drove 1,000 miles a week - still at a 1:2 ratio (on average)


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## XUberMike (Aug 2, 2015)

dnlbaboof said:


> no other company takes gas prices into consideration to decide pay, they have never been related since private expenses have nothing to do with pay esp when the company never paid for gas in the first place


I'm really not believing what I'm reading.

Every fuel using company takes price into ACCOUNT by WHAT THEY CHARGE and so should Uber.

They are called fuel surcharges and every airline, FedX, UPS has them.

I don't want Uber to pay me more when gas prices rise I want them to CHARGE MORE.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That's not what I said. I am currently only driving ~500 miles/wk.
> Last year I was driving more - and drove 1,000 miles a week - still at a 1:2 ratio (on average)


for clarity, are you talking 2 paid miles for every dead mile? or 2 dead miles for every 1 paid mile? neither really comes close to $425 on 500 miles driven

and still amazing how you can be pulling this off on 77/mile and 12/min

like if you went on one 500mile trip, thats $385(mileage) plus $60(time), thats $445 but that BEFORE you trek back 500 miles. but you're achieviing almost the same ($425 WITH your dead miles),when to get this $445,you'd have to stay where u were at to have 0 dead miles. So again, amazing if what you are saying is true


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## UberBlackPr1nce (Dec 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> COST OF GAS
> Cleveland, OH​
> July 2015 - $2.75/gal
> Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
> ...


If gas is the saving grace to thrive on UBERX... Then people better start praying now that gas never see high prices again because at 3.00 bucks or more you will be an outright ( fill in the blank) to drive uber X at these current rates...


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

XUberMike said:


> I'm really not believing what I'm reading.
> 
> Every fuel using company takes price into ACCOUNT by WHAT THEY CHARGE and so should Uber.
> 
> ...


exactly when paying salaries they dont take into account expenses they dont pay for, gas, rent, food prices, but when providing services that require expenses they do raise fees ie if an airline pays for gas etc.

So there is a difference between what we were talking about fees for raw materials the company has to pay for and the general cost of living ie food, rent gas prices which no company would justify a slash in wages because they dont really care since they are not paying for them anyways.


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## arto71 (Sep 20, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Ah... gotchya
> but I think you've still got an error in your decimal point:
> Detroit is the lowest in the US at $0.30/mi ... nobody in the US is at "$0.090 a mile" [yet]


Sad part is everyone points out Detroit's rates ,but simple math proves IE's( just 15 mil. East of DT LA) rates are even lower then Detroit's.It is well documented, that uberX average trip is seven mil. long,probably we need 20 min. to drive seven mil.

I.E 7 mil X $0.64= $ 4.48 
20 min X $0.15=$3.00
$4.48+$3.00=$ 7.48

Detroit
7 mil. X $0.30=$2.1
20min X$0.3=$6.00
Base=$0.50
$2.1+$6.0+$0.50=$8.60
Fact is ,some LA uberpool trips (short rides with heavy traffic )pays less(with pathetic $0.11/min) then Detroit's .


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## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

Price of fuel down means more people on the road means more miles traveled which means the shops are packed FULL and booked weeks in advance! They shop prices have climbed beyond the savings of fuel. Mechanics are making a killing right now.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberBlackPr1nce said:


> If gas is the saving grace to thrive on UBERX... Then people better start praying now that gas never see high prices again because at 3.00 bucks or more you will be an outright ( fill in the blank) to drive uber X at these current rates...


Personally, I think anyone who drives X only in most US markets even at these gas prices is already fill-in-the-blank.


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> COST OF GAS
> Cleveland, OH​
> July 2015 - $2.75/gal
> Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
> ...


Gas is the SMALLEST piece of the equation, unless you got ur head in the sand! If gas was free, you still lose money at these rates!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

arto71 said:


> Sad part is everyone points out Detroit's rates ,but simple math proves IE's( just 15 mil. East of DT LA) rates are even lower then Detroit's.It is well documented, that uberX average trip is seven mil. long,probably we need 20 min. to drive seven mil.
> 
> I.E 7 mil X $0.64= $ 4.48
> 20 min X $0.15=$3.00
> ...


Thank you for underscoring that mileage is not the only component of a fare or our earnings. Some here simply ignore that.


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

XUberMike said:


> I'm really not believing what I'm reading.
> 
> Every fuel using company takes price into ACCOUNT by WHAT THEY CHARGE and so should Uber.
> 
> ...


They wont. I guarantee Uber rates do not go up when gas goes back to $4, and it will! Why?, cuz a million new dummies that cant do math are signing up every day! Aaaarg


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Gas is the SMALLEST piece of the equation, unless you got ur head in the sand! If gas was free, you still lose money at these rates!


I don't doubt that you lose money at these fares... and at these gas prices. 
I don't... 
but I am pretty sure I am in the minoruty. 
You seem to have a problem with speaking for yourself only.


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> COST OF GAS
> Cleveland, OH​
> July 2015 - $2.75/gal
> Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
> ...


POST # 1/Michael - Cleveland : Bostonian
Bison Thanks You for
this Most Apropos Threadstarting Topic.

Although my local [Belle Mead/E. Naples]
Race Trac IS the Lowest of That Chain's
Stations in the Region: $1.77 10 days ago;
$1.88/gal. a few days ago, I CAN'T help but
think that its Proximity to an AntiChrist-
Mart, about .3 mile, is a Big Factor since
it has a Murphy's Gas on their premises.

I never found out what caused a Sudden
Spike about a Month Ago when the Next
Door [to RaceTrac] Shell AND Murphy's
were at $1.99/gal. the Race Trac had gone
"BUST OUT RETAIL" @ $2.29/gal.

I thought FOR SURE that Iran had attacked
Saudi Arabia's HUGE Refinery on the East-
ern Shore of the Persian Gulf. Not so!

Bison: Saints be Praised !


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

1. Michael's fare earnings seem to be not from his X-only driving, but from his driving Select/X combo.

2. But he seems to use his X car to compute his depreciation.

3. His quoted 2016 IRS std mil. deduction rate is wrong.


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Many pizza places tie their gas allowance paid to drivers to gas prices.


but they pay for the gas in the first place Uber doesnt pay for gas


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

well i found another delivery job just delivering food about 15 bucks an hour get gas stipend bye uber, no ratings stress, having to worry about picking up goons, you treated us like trash you lost me, ill just drive to keep the app active for now.


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## Friendly Jack (Nov 17, 2015)

In my opinion, considering a driver's return on time invested, vehicle depreciation, aggravation and general lack of appreciation, it would be difficult to justify Uber's rate cuts even if gasoline was free!


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

dnlbaboof said:


> but they pay for the gas in the first place Uber doesnt pay for gas


 What Uber DOES pay (or what they say the PAX pays, anyway) pays for ALL of our expenses plus income, SUPPOSEDLY.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Friendly Jack said:


> In my opinion, considering a driver's return on time invested, vehicle depreciation, aggravation and general lack of appreciation, it would be difficult to justify Uber's rate cuts even if gasoline was free!


It also depends on one's "risk aversion" (if someone with less education thinks this is a made up term, please "Bing" it).

Some people like to take lots of risks. Some don't. When The Donald followed his father Fred into the real estate development business, he decided to do grander projects with higher risks and higher potential returns. Fred was focused on the most boring, thinnest margin segment in the business--building low-cost housing (the "projects"), but with zero risk (the final backer being Uncle Sam). (At least The Duck learned arguably the most important lesson in business from his early business formative years shadowing Fred in his site visits--relentless cost control.)

Reed Hastings, Jeff Bezos, Zuck, Steve Jobs, Travis, did not get to where they are by not taking risks. W-2 workers abhor risks, that's why we are willing to put up with the boredom, monotony, and workplace crap much like Fred Trump. Higher risks, higher returns. Lower risks, lower returns.

What perplexes the neutral observer is this:

Why would some people accept lots of risks, with very low expected returns?! (TNC driving)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> They wont. I guarantee Uber rates do not go up when gas goes back to $4, and it will! Why?, cuz a million new dummies that cant do math are signing up every day! Aaaarg


Lol! You'e not a TNC driver... so what do you care and why are you trolling this thread. Ahhhh... cabbie? Btw... historically (short as that's been) or at last least year, fares have gone up when gas prices did. _Past performance is not an indicator of future results_. ☺


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Casuale Haberdasher said:


> POST # 1/Michael - Cleveland : Bostonian
> Bison Thanks You for
> this Most Apropos Threadstarting Topic.
> 
> ...


Bison, you Crack me up.


----------



## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

We need to differentiate between UberX vs UberSelect (UberBlack, UberSUV).

UberX driving is pushing close to the minimum wage territory, or even below. But the other options, even today, can bring drivers double (or more) of minimum wage.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> What Uber DOES pay (or what they say the PAX pays, anyway) pays for ALL of our expenses plus income, SUPPOSEDLY.


*SHOULD *pay for all expenses! But why do that when they can build their business at our expense? ... ugh, now you've got me going off topic, darn you!


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> 1. Michael's fare earnings seem to be not from his X-only driving, but from his driving Select/X combo.
> 
> 2. But he seems to use his X car to compute his depreciation.
> 
> 3. His quoted 2016 IRS std mil. deduction rate is wrong.


You have no idea what you are talking about. My numbers stated were based on X miles. Stop posting until you get a car, a license, learn to drive and get on the road and drive even just 1 mile of rideshare.


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## Kalee (Feb 18, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> CLE:
> went from $2.25 Dec 2014
> to $0.90 Jan 2015
> to $1.10 Jul 2015
> to $0.77 Jan 2016.


Rates weren't even close to $2.25 per mile for X in Cleveland in December of 2014. Here's an old email for the Cleveland market showing what rates were in October 2014

We've seen record growth in Cleveland this fall. The return of students, the launch of uberXL, the Cleveland Browns, and new marketing initiatives have led to new riders coming on each week. Most importantly, we've seen more trips per hour and growth in income for our partners.

To continue to spur this growth, we're decreasing prices on uberX by 10% with no change to minimum fares or cancellation fees. In addition, we'll be introducing weekday fare guarantees to help with the transition.

*In This Email:*


New marketing initiatives
More ways to reduce partner expenses
uberX pricing update
Fare guarantees

*New Marketing Initiatives for Even More Riders*

Along with the price changes, we'll be launching a series of marketing campaigns to increase uberX awareness across the Cleveland market.


Partnerships with hotels, restaurants and nightlife venues
Partnerships with large events and conferences
Partnerships with local universities
Ongoing partnerships with local publications & influencers

* More Ways to Reduce Partner Expenses *

*Bring Your Own Device (BYOD) Trade-In*


Partners can now return their Uber iPhone and download the Uber Partner App on their personal devices to avoid the $10 weekly device fee!
Currently offered for iPhone users (4S or higher) plus Android app coming soon
Please go to t.uber.com/driver-app to download
Return your Uber phone at any FedEx location for free. Let the FedEx employee know that you are a partner with Uber Technologies, Inc. and provide the mobile number associated with your account

*Personal phone discounts*


Partners who use AT&T or Verizon are eligible for a discount on their personal phone plans (18% for AT&T, 15% for Verizon) after 50 trips
Check out the "Phone Discounts" tab on your partner profile for more details 

*Lower Prices = More Business Than Ever Before*

With the holidays approaching, we are entering the busiest time of the year.

We want to make sure you get the most business you possibly can, so we're decreasing prices by 10%. The new rates, effective starting today, are as follows:










We recognize that many of our partners depend on Uber as an important source of income, and the decision to reduce prices comes after a lot of analysis. As we enter the busiest season of the year, we're confident that these new prices will continue to grow your rider base to record numbers.










*$$$ Guarantees*

We are committed to working alongside you to maximize your income as we make this transition together. We know that increased trips don't happen overnight and that they also mean more miles on your vehicle, so we're excited to announce more $$$ guarantee! This means if your average fares are less than the guarantee, we'll gross you up to the guarantee level. Please see the below chart for times and amounts.

To qualify for the guaranteed fares/hr:


Log online in the core coverage area 
Maintain an 80% trip acceptance during the incentive hours
Must average at least 1 legitimate trip per hour driven during incentive hours to qualify
Each guarantee period with the same dollar amount will be calculated and presented as one line item in your partner statement.










As always, thank you for your continued partnership. We are working everyday to grow demand and your revenue. We're always eager to answer questions or hear your feedback - for 24/7 support, email us at [email protected].

Uber On,


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

Kalee said:


> Rates weren't even close to $2.25 per mile for X in Cleveland in December of 2014. Here's an old email for the Cleveland market showing what rates were in October 2014
> 
> We've seen record growth in Cleveland this fall. The return of students, the launch of uberXL, the Cleveland Browns, and new marketing initiatives have led to new riders coming on each week. Most importantly, we've seen more trips per hour and growth in income for our partners.
> 
> ...


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

I call bullshit, I have never seen a rate increase in any city ever!


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about. My numbers stated were based on X miles. Stop posting until you get a car, a license, learn to drive and get on the road and drive even just 1 mile of rudeshare.


You are not only bad in math, which I can accept, a lot of people are like you.

But you are very rude. You made fun of people driving X telling them they might as well go begging on the street with a placard. Your angst at the world may be due to your upbringing, but more likely it is the frustration over your own career choices or financial situation.

Your calculations do not make sense with only X rate, as one poster has pointed out.

And I was just being helpful. I pointed out your incorrect mileage deduction rate, there is no thank you nor admission to the mistake, but a rant from you.

Do we need to be a TNC driver to point out your lazy and sloppy math?

Your latest posts, from their careless and sloppy math, and dishonest calculations, show that you are not doing this thread for the benefit of the readers, but for something else.

Also, you are an administrator, but you do not disclose your adminstrator's title when you post. If UP doesn't have a legal team to advise you on this, you should consult your own attorney.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Lol! You'e not a TNC driver... so what do you care and why are you trolling this thread. Ahhhh... cabbie? Btw... historically (short as that's been) or at least year, fares have gone up when gas prices did. _Past performance is not an indicator of future results_. ☺


 I was the top UberX driver in my market for two years,before the rates collapsed so I call bullshit!


----------



## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> I was the top UberX driver in my market for two years,before the rates collapsed so I call bullshit!


I think he was referring to me, as I always try to disclose the fact that I am not a TNC driver yet. He probably hit reply to your post by mistake, just like the many sinike moments he had, like typing 11 cents as $0.011 and using the wrong 2016 std business mileage rate a few times in a post, and never correct them or admit to his mistakes. He reminds me of some people with super huge egos, never learn, never change.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> I was the top UberX driver in my market for two years,before the rates collapsed so I call bullshit!





ClevelandUberRider said:


> I think he was referring to me, as I always try to disclose the fact that I am not a TNC driver yet. He probably hit reply to your post by mistake, just like the many sinike moments he had, like typing 11 cents as $0.011 and using the wrong 2016 std business mileage rate a few times in a post, and never correct them or admit to his mistakes. He reminds me of some people with super huge egos, never learn, never change.


 you have the wrong poster, I never said anything about $.11 typo or the standard mileage rate


----------



## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> you have the wrong poster, I never said anything about $.11 typo or the standard mileage rate


Misunderstanding here apparently.

Michael replied to your post saying you were not a TNC driver. You replied back saying you were.

I then replied to your note saying maybe Michael replied to your post when intending to say I am not a TNC driver.

Clear?


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> I was the top UberX driver in my market for two years,before the rates collapsed so I call bullshit!


Lol... yeah... so... like I said, you don't drive now... and have nothing better to than to troll the forum... even though you aren't an Uber or Lyft driver. Why? Do you enjoy seeing your words on the screen that much? With your great experience, why are you posting confrontational and argumentative posts that are disrespectful of others posts instead of sharing your experience in a positive way? Or is that just your 'thang'?


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Misunderstanding here apparently.
> 
> Michael replied to your post saying you were not a TNC driver. You replied back saying you were.
> 
> ...


I am just pissed that was once a good product and a possible living has been completely ruined! Nobody wants to ride in a 2005 Prius shit box! Once a good product has come all the way down to, only the biggest dummy in the shittiest car can still do this! Way to go Travis! ( I haven't driven in over a year and will never drive again at these rates!)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Kalee said:


> Rates weren't even close to $2.25 per mile for X in Cleveland in December of 2014. Here's an old email for the Cleveland market showing what rates were in October 2014
> 
> We've seen record growth in Cleveland this fall. The return of students, the launch of uberXL, the Cleveland Browns, and new marketing initiatives have led to new riders coming on each week. Most importantly, we've seen more trips per hour and growth in income for our partners.
> 
> ...


that'ts a typo... Dec 2014 x rate was $1.25... not $2.25. Thanks!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> I am just pissed that was once a good product and a possible living has been completely ruined! Nobody wants to ride in a 2005 Prius shit box! Once a good product has come all the way down to, only the biggest dummy in the shittiest car can still do this! Way to go Travis! ( I haven't driven in over a year and will never drive again at these rates!$


But why take it out on us, here?


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> But why take it out on us, here?


 I am just trying to save one stupid driver at a time! You're losing money!


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Lol... yeah... so... like I said, you don't drive now... and have nothing better to than to troll the forum... even though you aren't an Uber or Lyft driver. Why? Do you enjoy seeing your words on the screen that much? With your great experience, why are you posting confrontational and argumentative posts that are disrespectful of others posts instead of sharing your experience in a positive way? Or is that just your 'thang'?


I am just trying to save one stupid driver at a time! You're losing money! When you should be striking! By continuing to drive you're just enforcing Travis's my car's free idiot philosophy!


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> I am just pissed that was once a good product and a possible living has been completely ruined! Nobody wants to ride in a 2005 Prius shit box! Once a good product has come all the way down to, only the biggest dummy in the shittiest car can still do this! Way to go Travis! ( I haven't driven in over a year and will never drive again at these rates!)


I see your pain. But why not drive Select or SUV? The rates are still pretty good here in Cleveland (in Detroit, if it's different please tell me). Drive half a year, put in 50K miles or so, and you have the cash investment on the car back!


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

You're looking at it wrong. Yes the price of fuel decreased by a large percentage, but your fuel cost PER MILE has barely changed. 

Assuming 30 mpg:

At $2.59/gal, fuel cost is 8.6¢/mile 

At $1.71/gal, fuel cost is 5.7¢/mile

That's a 2.9¢/mile difference. Rates in Tampa for X dropped 35¢/mile.

'Nuff said.

FYI: To calculate your fuel cost (only) per mile, simply divide the cost of 1 gallon of fuel by your MPG. So if gas is $1.71 and you get 30mpg, just divide $1.71 by 30 ($1.71/30=$.057)


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Good to see CommanderXL and Bart McCoy can do math. Not everybody does.


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## Ubernomics (Nov 11, 2015)

It's $4 hr in Detroit, that's being modest that Includes the low gas price. 
Car Insurance 
Gas
Uber cut
70,000 mile tires
Oil change 
Car washes

Here is how you make the $4hr for your time and you get the rest by sucking the life out of your vehicle and taking that $6 or $7 extra per hour as an advancement. 

Annnnd so...by the time it comes to replace your car you'll better be a "money saving machine" because your gonna need to pull all those savings out of your bank to buy replacement car! 

This is how you get Uber poor yay! You go from dumb driver to dumb passenger. But at least you get to judge every driver if they flinch wrong... yay!

Working poor yay!!


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## Ubernomics (Nov 11, 2015)

Ubernomics said:


> It's $4 hr in Detroit, that's being modest that Includes the low gas price.
> Car Insurance
> Gas
> Uber cut
> ...


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Bart McCoy said:


> for clarity, are you talking 2 paid miles for every dead mile?


How would anyone accomplish that? Let me in on the secret!

I've been posting here on UP.n for a year warning new drivers not to be sucked in by the promises of earnings - OR the FAREs... and my advice has always been to count on driving AT LEAST 2 miles in order to get paid for driving 1 mile. THAT is the 'scam' that is TNC.

Minimizing dead miles is the single best thing a driver can do to reduce their expenses (other than swithching to 'pedal power').


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> I call bullshit, I have never seen a rate increase in any city ever!


Call whatever you want. If you're monitoring such things then you wouldn't have had to look further than that city to south east, where in July the fare went from $0.90/mi to $1.10/mile. But how would you know... you're not an Uber driver.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Casuale Haberdasher said:


> POST # 1/Michael - Cleveland : Bostonian
> Bison Thanks You for this Most Apropos Threadstarting Topic.


You had me at apropos.


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## Ubernomics (Nov 11, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> How would accomplish that? Let me in on the secret!
> 
> I've been posting here on UP.n for a year warning new drivers not to be sucked in by the promises of earnings - OR the FAREs... and my advice has always been to count on driving AT LEAST 2 miles in order to get paid for driving 1 mile. THAT is the 'scam' that is TNC.
> 
> Minimizing dead miles is the single best thing a driver can do to reduce their expenses (other than swithching to 'pedal power').


Yes your right, however not everyone driving can see the future problems with doing this for work or with the business model. Uber is brilliant let me say because your problems are not theirs. It is a long term viability problem that exists for the drivers but it's nearly impossible to comprehend. One day word will travel like a tidal wave and prices will go up or there will always be a shortage of drivers.. I'm about to write a pretty funny piece, follow me so you can read it, tell me what you think.


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

Ubernomics said:


> Yes your right, however not everyone driving can see the future problems with doing this for work or with the business model. Uber is brilliant let me say because your problems are not theirs. It is a long term viability problem that exists for the drivers but it's nearly impossible to comprehend. One day word will travel like a tidal wave and prices will go up or there will always be a shortage of drivers.. I'm about to write a pretty funny piece, follow me so you can read it, tell me what you think.


 Nope... There will never be a shortage of drivers, because there's 1 million new idiots to sign up every day that believe the lies and can't do math!


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

Are you serious? So you save $20 or so on a fill up but lose $100 on lowered rates, and that's fair to you? I don't think you're very good at math, OP.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> I was the top UberX driver in my market for two years, before the rates collapsed! Ur all losing $, just stop the INSANITY !


yeah - that's the second time you've boasted that.
makes one wonder what your hidden agenda is.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

itsablackmarket said:


> Are you serious? So you save $20 or so on a fill up but lose $100 on lowered rates, and that's fair to you? I don't think you're very good at math, OP.


did you read any of the posts in this thread - or even the thread title?


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

itsablackmarket said:


> Are you serious? So you save $20 or so on a fill up but lose $100 on lowered rates, and that's fair to you? I don't think you're very good at math, OP.


 Now there's someone with some common sense! Refreshing!


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> did you read nay of the posts in this thread - or even the thread title?


The rates did not drop because of gas prices. Watch, if gas goes back up, rates will not increase.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

itsablackmarket said:


> The rates did not drop because of gas prices. Watch, if gas goes back up, rates will not increase.


Unless your name is Travis Kalanick, you have no idea why rates drop - at least no more than any one else here. But that's besides the point. NO ONE has ever suggested here that rates dropped BECAUSE of gas prices.
The question IS: 
*Is it fair to talk about fare cuts without also talking about expense cuts?*


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Uber shill? Who ever said that? Are you insane?... seriously... what's up? You're don't expect anyone here to really believe that you're here out of the goodness of your heart to save all those here who just aren't as smart as you from.
> Did Uber deactivate you for a lousy rating or something and now you're venting here by ranting here about them? You do know you're preaching to the choir in that regard, right? So... what's your point of being here, hijacking conversations to rnat about things unrelated to the topic?


Nope, 4.95 rating, top in my market. Drive a new car, just pissed that you have to drive a beater now just to break even!


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about. My numbers stated were based on X miles. Stop posting until you get a car, a license, learn to drive and get on the road and drive even just 1 mile of rideshare.


POST # 83/Michael - Cleveland:.........+1!


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers! (Jan 1, 2015)

Casuale Haberdasher said:


> POST # 83/Michael - Cleveland:.........+1!


 Huh? That's not my post, how did you do that?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

CommanderXL said:


> You're looking at it wrong. Yes the price of fuel decreased by a large percentage, but your fuel cost PER MILE has barely changed.
> 
> Assuming 30 mpg:
> At $2.59/gal, fuel cost is 8.6¢/mile
> ...


And if fuel were your only expesne that would all you would need to know.
But it's not. 
And that isn't the question being asked, which is 
*"Is it fair to talk about fare cuts without also talking about expense cuts?"*
There's no agenda in that question - no premise and no conclusion.
The FACT is that on the one hand, we have EARNINGS and on the other we have EXPENSES.
On the EARNINGS side, we've seen a drop in earnings per trip. 
On the EXPENSES side, we've seen a drop in expesnes per trip.
No one is saying they off-set eachother (not by a long shot).
The question is:
*"Is it fair to talk about fare cuts without also talking about expense cuts?"*


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Nope... There will never be a shortage of drivers, because there's 1 million new idiots to sign up every day that believe the lies and can't do math!


That's the first post you've made here that I agree with, 100%.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> ...just pissed that you have to drive a beater now just to break even!


 I don't drive a beater and I do make money. Anyone driving a new car - especially a FINANCED new car who thinks they can 'just make enough to cover my car payments [I think you'll agree] is living a pipe dream. So start a thread about that... it's a great topic. 
Don't hijack someone else's thread with off topic rants.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Huh? That's not my post, how did you do that?


Seriously, how did he do that??


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That's the first post you've made here that I agree with, 100%.


So two people, Michael and UberSucksForDrivers agree, that one million drivers sign up every day.

According to their math, in just one year (2016), 366 million people, more than the entire population in the country, will be driving just for Uber.


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## BiggestScamInHistory (Jan 19, 2016)

How would you continue to argue & discuss such a ridiculously stupid topic and argument unless you weren't an UBER SHILL GETTING PAID TO PUT OUT MORE BS NONSENSE JUSTIFYING UBER'S SLAVE RATES AND WORKING CONDITIONS?!

Sad thing is, these snakes get paid more for their minimal energy spent than Uber's own drivers do total now, not just after expenses.


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## BiggestScamInHistory (Jan 19, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> How would anyone accomplish that? Let me in on the secret!
> 
> I've been posting here on UP.n for a year warning new drivers not to be sucked in by the promises of earnings - OR the FAREs... and my advice has always been to count on driving AT LEAST 2 miles in order to get paid for driving 1 mile. THAT is the 'scam' that is TNC.
> 
> Minimizing dead miles is the single best thing a driver can do to reduce their expenses (other than swithching to 'pedal power').


Even with 0 dead miles all the idiots still driving for these new gutter rates aren't doing anything but killing their cars and wasting their time being exploited by Uber and upper and upper middle class people who can afford to poo ay more for a ride but save it for more liquor or coke or whatever other BS is more important.


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

I know I used to make more than double what I make now. For me, the lower cost of gas has not caused my take home pay to be the same as it was when gas was more expensive. I make half of what I used to make for the same work. I don't need any fancy formulas to know that Uber is trying to screw me over.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> I know I used to make more than double what I make now. For me, the lower cost of gas has not caused my take home pay to be the same as it was when gas was more expensive. I make half of what I used to make for the same work. I don't need any fancy formulas to know that Uber is trying to screw me over.


But the surges are more frequent and last longer. Doesn't that bring your earnings back to the level before the fare cuts?


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> But the surges are more frequent and last longer. Doesn't that bring your earnings back to the level before the fare cuts?


Not even close. Surges are different from market to market. Everyone is different. A big factor for me is I have a fairly new car that costs over 30K. The mileage / decriciation is a factor that I cannot ignore. For the record, for the sake of this thread, I didn't even consider depriciation. The fact is, in my market, I take home over 50% less than I did when I started for the same amount of work.

Surges are designed to scam drivers. They lure drivers into working who end up taking many non surge rides. There are also endless posts about Uber not paying drivers surge rates.

I believe that companies should reward the people who make them rich, by increasing their share of the pie. Uber is a sleezy company that lured decent drivers to their platform by paying decent fares. After they had enough drivers and market share, they screwed over the people who got them started.

They continued their preditory practices by finding uneducated, poor people who could not get a car loan and hooked them up with car leases. After Uber got enough people lured into their car leases, they cut rates again to essentially make these people endentured slaves. Those that couldn't make the car payment by working 80 hrs per week, had their credit ruined and their lives turned upside down. Uber thinks nothing about destryoing people's lives. In fact, they implement business practices designed to do just that. The above example is the most obvious.

Now that Uber is experiencing a rapid exedus of drivers who have seen the light, they resort to recruiting drives in the ghettos of America, and have even gone so far as to drop their background check requirements to include convicted criminals.

Uber is quite possibly the most horrible company on the planet.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> Uber is quite possibly the most horrible company on the planet.


As much as I thought Realityshark was just an Uber hater when I started here on UP just because our rates were phenomenal, I have come to agree with about 90% of his ranting rhetoric.

I thought for sure we would have at least a whole year of $1.50/mi at 20¢/min. Then on 1/9, they dropped us like a hot potato. Just weeks after our local rep (from 500 miles away) came to town impressed with how we had more full time workers as a percentage of our drivers than any other market, they dropped the rates from $1.50/mi to not $1.25 or $1.10 or even $1. They dropped us to $0.85. They told customers AND DRIVERS that the rates were going down by 35%, when in reality they went down closer to 45%.

There was no previous year's data to compare to. We had 40,000 students return, which will happen to fall in line with their "demand will increase" rhetoric. In reality, Uber shot themselves in the foot. In paying out guarantees, they have cut their income a lot. As savvy as they seem to be, Uber really is stupid. If demand decreased, then plenty of the part time drivers would just app-off.

But to return to the relevancy of this thread, my gas went from 12¢ to 8¢/mile. I'd be ok if they reduced our rates by 4¢.

Michael, you are doing exactly what Uber wants: drive a depreciated car with good mileage. They simply don't care.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> Not even close. Surges are different from market to market. Everyone is different. A big factor for me is I have a fairly new car that costs over 30K. The mileage / decriciation is a factor that I cannot ignore. For the record, for the sake of this thread, I didn't even consider depriciation. The fact is, in my market, I take home over 50% less than I did when I started for the same amount of work.
> 
> Surges are designed to scam drivers. They lure drivers into working who end up taking many non surge rides. There are also endless posts about Uber not paying drivers surge rates.
> 
> ...


(I deleted the post for over-sharing of potentially proprietary business observations.)


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Realityshark said:


> Not even close. Surges are different from market to market. Everyone is different. A big factor for me is I have a fairly new car that costs over 30K. The mileage / decriciation is a factor that I cannot ignore. For the record, for the sake of this thread, I didn't even consider depriciation. The fact is, in my market, I take home over 50% less than I did when I started for the same amount of work.
> 
> Surges are designed to scam drivers. They lure drivers into working who end up taking many non surge rides. There are also endless posts about Uber not paying drivers surge rates.
> 
> ...


Bravo!


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> Not even close. Surges are different from market to market. Everyone is different. A big factor for me is I have a fairly new car that costs over 30K. The mileage / decriciation is a factor that I cannot ignore. For the record, for the sake of this thread, I didn't even consider depriciation. The fact is, in my market, I take home over 50% less than I did when I started for the same amount of work.
> 
> Surges are designed to scam drivers. They lure drivers into working who end up taking many non surge rides. There are also endless posts about Uber not paying drivers surge rates


Main thing like u said, surges are different market to market, so even surge only may not work for you. Take me though, our market is $1/mile, 17/min, i do SURE only,no regular rate ever and defintely not any pools. Lately it has been surges more than it has before. Thats usually a sign Uber will raise rates, because constant surge is bad for pax, and pax is priority 1 for them. But look at my screen shots, for me im getting less miles,less wear n tear, less hours working, but MORE money


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)




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## YoungMD243 (Jan 25, 2016)

Bart McCoy said:


> View attachment 25646
> View attachment 25647
> View attachment 25648


It's funny how people complain about pay but I'm seeing stuff like this. $206 in 6 hours. Try finding a regular job that pays that much without the hassle. Yes, you do have to keep up with matienence on your car but still you're profiting after those expenses.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Drivers complain when their earnings are low. When their earnings are high, only a few are willing to share it for fear of new drivers onboarding.


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

YoungMD243 said:


> It's funny how people complain about pay but I'm seeing stuff like this. $206 in 6 hours. Try finding a regular job that pays that much without the hassle. Yes, you do have to keep up with matienence on your car but still you're profiting after those expenses.


The main points are: Every market is different. If you can make it work in your market, awesome, most people can't. (Note that I know nothing about your particular market)

Know that Uber is a horrible company that will abuse you if they can. Get out early, if things turn ugly.

The more drivers Uber has in a market, allows them to cut rates and hurt you. Those driver numbers impact surges as well. If your market is still viable, consider yourself lucky.

Too many people come here for validation because they're too lazy, too stupid or unwilling to find something better even when the numbers no longer work

You're quoting numbers from a guy in DC and yet your profile says Philly. I don't know your rates, but looking at other markets to validate driving for Uber seems pretty weak and naive. Common sense tells me that the two markets are not the same. Even if the rate is the same, the number of drivers, mileage, potential surges, competition, hell, even gas prices are different.

Add in the fact that Bart McCoy (The guy whose numbers have you excited) has been doing this a long time and obviously has a nice little system figured out in his market.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> The main points are: Every market is different. If you can make it work in your market, awesome, most people can't. (Note that I know nothing about your particular market)
> 
> Know that Uber is a horrible company that will abuse you if they can. Get out early, if things turn ugly.
> 
> ...


Right, you have to have a strategy and tricks to make it work, some may be even unethical..... But I blame Uber. And ike you said, its not possible in all markets even at surge. Mine are starting to last a while and are often close to where I live so lil less dead miles, especially on end of the night trek back home.

But so we are clear, Uber is a horrible company. Anything under $1/mile I don't really think you can make good money off of, although some have dified math and made it happen at around 75 cents they say. I'm just trying to milk what I can from Uber while it lasts, because eventually we will probably all end up close to Detroit rates, which make 2.0x surges still crap. I have a weekday job and do uber when I get off. It's okay money, but nothing like it was 2 rate cuts ago in my market.

Uber is an easy convenient solo job, that's why it's addictive. Uber knows this and exploits this addictiveness as well as knowing people are in hard times and are desperate even to work for pennies. Uber will probably never get better, for the driver that is. Only pax can win in the future of Uber

I posted my earnings to show it is possible if you sit down and try to figure things out. Everybodys situation is different, but most are bad lol. I'm sure you already know most of the stuff I typed, my message isn't really for you, but the uninformed masses instead


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## YoungMD243 (Jan 25, 2016)

Realityshark said:


> The main points are: Every market is different. If you can make it work in your market, awesome, most people can't. (Note that I know nothing about your particular market)
> 
> Know that Uber is a horrible company that will abuse you if they can. Get out early, if things turn ugly.
> 
> ...


I've been only doing this for a week. I went to Philly on Tuesday and drove 5pm-10pm and made $128. I was lurking on the fourms way before I started driving and seeing these post didn't motivate me to go out on the road. Now that I can see how much I can make, I'm laughing at the post that scream "rates are too low!!!". I'm only doing this for part time work as I already have a job and go to school. If the rates are too low, go look for a regular job that pays you $12/hour with a boss.

EDIT: I believe the rates In Philly is $1+ a mile


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

YoungMD243 said:


> I was lurking on the fourms way before I started driving and seeing these post didn't motivate me to go out on the road.


At least now you know what to look out for. You may want to read through the posts regarding insurance unless you already have that covered. Getting into an accident without the proper insurance could potentially have you paying a settlement for the rest of your adult life. Better yet, call your insurance company and ask them.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

YoungMD243 said:


> I've been only doing this for a week. I went to Philly on Tuesday and drove 5pm-10pm and made $128.


you did this on regular rate?


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

Bart McCoy said:


> you did this on regular rate?


The dudes been driving for a week....He's got it all figured out. He doesn't need any help from a couple of old bitter guys who have spent a couples years at this. Face it Bart, you and I are just not as smart as the new Uber drivers.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

YoungMD243 said:


> It's funny how people complain about pay but I'm seeing stuff like this. $206 in 6 hours. Try finding a regular job that pays that much without the hassle. Yes, you do have to keep up with matienence on your car but still you're profiting after those expenses.


Did you note that every fare was at surge, and he drove only the best hours (evening to bar time)? That's not what a typical driver makes, and it is before expenses.


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## chet (Jan 29, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> COST OF GAS
> Cleveland, OH​
> July 2015 - $2.75/gal
> Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
> ...


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

YoungMD243 said:


> I've been only doing this for a week. I went to Philly on Tuesday and drove 5pm-10pm and made $128. I was lurking on the fourms way before I started driving and seeing these post didn't motivate me to go out on the road. Now that I can see how much I can make, I'm laughing at the post that scream "rates are too low!!!". I'm only doing this for part time work as I already have a job and go to school. If the rates are too low, go look for a regular job that pays you $12/hour with a douchbag boss.
> 
> EDIT: I believe the rates In Philly is $1+ a mile


You are new to this, and it all seems so easy and wonderful. Every single one of us went through that phase. Truth is, I wish I was still in that phase. And we all thought we were really banking the bucks, too. My market pays $1.35 per mile and $0.24 per minute.

Truth is, you need to do the math to see what you actually "made." Until you do that math, you have no idea. If your rate is $1 per mile, you almost certainly didn't really make more than $60 in your 5 hours. If you don't know how to do the math, I can show you. Be warned, though: Once you do honest accounting, your current elation might turn to horror as you realize that you are mostly just cashing out the equity in your car for the "pleasure" of driving entitled strangers around. YMMV and all that.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> But the surges are more frequent and last longer. Doesn't that bring your earnings back to the level before the fare cuts?


Couldn't be further from reality.
As an Uber Rider, are you seeing more surges [than I am as a driver and a rider]?

Surges are NOT more frequent - and in the Cleveland market, with the sole exception of a downtown event, they NEVER last more than a few minutes at a time - AND are more often than not in the range of 1.2 to 1.5
(increasing the fare from $0.77/mi. to between $0.92 and $1.16 - mostly still below the $1.10/mi pre Jan 8.)


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Ccouldn't be further from reality.
> As an Uber Rider, are you seeing more surges [than I am as a driver and a rider]?
> 
> Surges are NOT more frequent - and in the Cleveland market, with the sole exception of a downtown event, they NEVER last more than a few minutes at a time - AND are more often than not in the range of 1.2 to 1.5
> (increasing the fare from $0.77/mi. to between $0.92 and $1.16 - mostly still below the $1.10/mi pre Jan 8.)


Market dependent of course
Mine are starting to occur more often and last longer


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Greguzzi said:


> Did you note that every fare was at surge, and he drove only the best hours (evening to bar time)? That's not what a typical driver makes, and it is before expenses.


correct
Veterans know this, newbies have to learn this
I started during rush,and coasted into night time club life
This definitely isn't typical
But I posted to encourage folks who are going to continue to Uber no matter what, to try to figure out a strategy to make it work


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Bart McCoy said:


> correct
> Veterans know this, newbies have to learn this
> I started during rush,and coasted into night time club life
> This definitely isn't typical
> But I posted to encourage folks who are going to continue to Uber no matter what, to try to figure out a strategy to make it work


Thanks, and you are doing noble work in trying to educate newbs.

Do you keep the app on and only accept surge rates, or do you turn the app off and only turn it on when it's surging?


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

YoungMD243 said:


> I've been only doing this for a week. I went to Philly on Tuesday and drove 5pm-10pm and made $128. I was lurking on the fourms way before I started driving and seeing these post didn't motivate me to go out on the road. Now that I can see how much I can make, I'm laughing at the post that scream "rates are too low!!!". I'm only doing this for part time work as I already have a job and go to school. If the rates are too low, go look for a regular job that pays you $12/hour with a douchbag boss.
> 
> EDIT: I believe the rates In Philly is $1+ a mile


A) Base rates in Philadelphia are $1.10/mile + $0.18/min AND there is a huge population there.
B) I'm looking right now in downtown Philly - it's 12:30 in the AFTERNOON and its surging at 2.4x!

$1.10 is 29% higher than my local rate (Was: $1.50, Is: $0.85)
$0.18 is 38% higher than my local rate (Was: $0.20, Is: $0.13)

Yeah - I'd be dancing in the streets at your rates AND your surges! But will Uber EVER go back up? Maybe. Will they go back up to where they were? There's a 2% chance.

I used to pick a guy up from work and take him home. Used to net me around $8 for 30 minutes from my armchair back to my armchair. Now I get $4.50. Still takes the same amount of time. Not worth it. Period. Now the guy has to wait for 15-20 minutes for a ride 'cause I used to be his closest driver. Not any more. My app is off unless there is a guarantee.


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## chet (Jan 29, 2016)

The government allows $.575 per mile section 179 tax deduction. This does not factor in driver labor.This should be considered your cost for operating a vehicle. In my experience 50 percent or less of miles are paid. That establishes break even at $1.155 per mile net. The pecentage of paid miles will change, depending on your situation, ( keep track of total miles and see what percent you are paid for) . Uber takes about 25 percent for themselves. So you if you divide by .75 you will get your breakeven pay per mile.($1.155 ÷ .75 =$1.54) Anything you earn above that is taxable net earnings. Your per minute rate + ride fee. Here it is $.15 min. That computes to $6.60 per hour for actual driving time. So you must factor your actual driving percentage. Time driving on trips÷ time online = percent driving time. ($6.60 ×.50 =$3.30 per hour) add to this your trip fees per hour less ubers cut. ($1.50 ×.75 =$1.15) 4 trips per hour + driving time pay = about minimum wage. Of course I dont know for sure what Ubers cut is, i was just taking my net pay and deviding by the total fare to get the percent net pay.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

chet said:


> The government allows $.575 per mile section 179 tax deduction.


That was tax year 2015.
For 2016 the std deduction is $0.55/mi.
[EDIT... I keep typing that wrong!]

From the IRS site:
"Beginning on Jan. 1, 2016, the standard mileage rates for the use of a car will be:
54 cents per mile for business miles driven, down from 57.5 cents for 2015"


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Hi, how many weeks/months did you read up on posts on UP before finally signing up?


Interesting question.
Most folks only find UberPeople.net after they have started driving, realizing they have questions and wanting to learn more.


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## YoungMD243 (Jan 25, 2016)

I forgot to mention, I drive for both lyft and Uber. I have both apps open at the same time. No I do not have it figured all out but I don't think it's pretty hard. Yes, I do know it's all about the market. I live in South Jersey and there's nothing around my way so I drive 30 mins to Philly to uber/lyft


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

You have to add in the drive time and miles to your equation, when figuring out what your honest earnings were out of the time you spent. So, add an hour and 60 miles to your figures for total miles driven and total hours spent. Be honest with yourself now to avoid being angry with yourself later.


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## YoungMD243 (Jan 25, 2016)

"Here's the real world calculations,

Can you pay your bills.
Can you make your car payment, if any,
Can you put money back to cover normal car repairs and maintenance,

If answer to all three is yes, then no further calculations are needed.."


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> You have to add in the drive time and miles to your equation, when figuring out what your honest earnings were out of the time you spent. So, add an hour and 60 miles to your figures for total miles driven and total hours spent. Be honest with yourself now to avoid being angry with yourself later.


No you don't. My day job doesn't pay me to drive to work.


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## YoungMD243 (Jan 25, 2016)

Also takes me $19 to fill up on gas. As I stated before, I have another job and I do this part time to pay for school for the semester. I can see if you were doing this long term, it would be detrimental but short term and part time hours you profit.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Greguzzi said:


> Thanks, and you are doing noble work in trying to educate newbs.
> 
> Do you keep the app on and only accept surge rates, or do you turn the app off and only turn it on when it's surging?


No surge No ride is my motto
and our base rate is $1.02/mile here
I keep that app OFF,and only turn it on when I go into surge areas. I reject any non-surge pings that still stray in, and reject all pool requests. Many times while in surge for UberX, UberPool isn't surging. I do however accept HIGH surge pools and only accept a matched pool if that is even a HIGHER surge. Don't forget (for us at least), even though you get paid didly for time (10cent/minute), at 3.0 pool surges thats over 3 bucks a mile,and can pay off if they are going any decent distance.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Couldn't be further from reality.
> As an Uber Rider, are you seeing more surges [than I am as a driver and a rider]?
> 
> Surges are NOT more frequent - and in the Cleveland market, with the sole exception of a downtown event, they NEVER last more than a few minutes at a time - AND are more often than not in the range of 1.2 to 1.5
> (increasing the fare from $0.77/mi. to between $0.92 and $1.16 - mostly still below the $1.10/mi pre Jan 8.)


I see more surges and they last longer on my rider's app. But I don't base my statement on this, as there is a possibility it surged more and longer on days that I checked.

I read up on drivers' posting their pay records and their own testimonials. Because drivers drive more hours to make money during any week than I have the time to check on this during the week on a volunteer basis..Granted, they may be the exceptions. But they shared that surges are more often and last longer now. Which makes sense with drivers decreasing their on-app hours as a large number of drivers on UP said they were doing.


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## LAuberX (Jun 3, 2014)

YoungMD243 said:


> "Here's the real world calculations,
> 
> Can you pay your bills.
> Can you make your car payment, if any,
> ...


Can you feel your legs after working 17 hours

Can you sell your car for 1/2 of what you owe on it

Will your insurance company cancel your policy if they know you drive for Lyft/Uber


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That was tax year 2015.
> For 2016 the std deduction is $0.55/mi.


Once again, the std mileage rate for business quoted for tax year 2016 is wrong.

For those interested to get or use the correct rate, it takes no more than 30 seconds to go to IRS.gov, type "business mileage" and click open the second item on the resul list, which is the IRS' press release of 12/17/2015 announcing the various deductible rates for tax year 2016.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

LAuberX said:


> Can you feel your legs after working 17 hours
> 
> Can you sell your car for 1/2 of what you owe on it
> 
> Will your insurance company cancel your policy if they know you drive for Lyft/Uber


First line, very funny!

Regular stretching, walking around a little, between paid trips would help.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Bart McCoy said:


> No surge No ride is my motto
> and our base rate is $1.02/mile here
> I keep that app OFF,and only turn it on when I go into surge areas. I reject any non-surge pings that still stray in, and reject all pool requests. Many times while in surge for UberX, UberPool isn't surging. I do however accept HIGH surge pools and only accept a matched pool if that is even a HIGHER surge. Don't forget (for us at least), even though you get paid didly for time (10cent/minute), at 3.0 pool surges thats over 3 bucks a mile,and can pay off if they are going any decent distance.


OK. Good man. I am the same way and would play it exactly as you seem to be doing, were I in a place that paid do little per mile and per minute.

What I would like to point out to others, then, is that you spent more time at this than the Uber counter of 6 hours suggests, so you are actually grossing (before expenses) quite a bit less per hour than $200/6 hours. Based on first and last fares, it appears to be more like $200 in 8 hours of trying. How many miles and hours spent getting yourself into position to make this amount? If you don't mind doing so, let's run the numbers and see what you actually made in this best-case scenario.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I see more surges and they last longer on my rider's app. But I don't base my statement on this, as there is a possibility it surged more and longer on days that I checked.


I'm not sure that's a good indicator - though it may be. The reality is very different than what you can observe by opening up the app. Most riders in our market know from experience they can just wait out a surge, as they rarely last more than a few minutes - and are very defined in location.


> I read up on drivers' posting their pay records and their own testimonials. Because drivers drive more hours to make money during any week than I have the time to check on this during the week on a volunteer basis..Granted, they may be the exceptions. *But they shared* that surges are more often and last longer now.


Drawing your own conclusions from what you read is one thing - posting someone else's experience as if you know something first hand is another! That being said, in the past I have advised not wasting time trying to chase surges - and most drivers I talk to (nearly every day) agree - but others still try. Every night I hear even experienced drivers complain that they just drove ten minutes or more to get to a surge/primetime area only to have it disappear as they arrive. Others drivers (myself included) observe that we can sit in a surge area from the time it lights up to the time it ends and not receive a single ride request.

Surge driving is as much art and luck as it is science.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> let's run the numbers and see what you actually made in this best-case scenario.


This is a nitpick of mine and I am very much in the minority with how I look at time...
but his earnings are exactly the same whether he was online for 6 hours, 2 hours or 12 hours.
The only thing that differs is his "_earnings per hour_"
- a metric I personally don't care about becuase all I want to know as a business guy is how much of a return I got on my investment... and the time I invest in driving is my own, otherwise non-productive time. And yes, I agree: YMMV. 

As I tell all of my workers:
"_You don't deposit your hourly rate in the bank - you deposit your paycheck_".


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> This is a nitpick of mine and I am very much in the minority with how I look at time...
> but his earnings are exactly the same whether he was online for 6 hours, 2 hours or 12 hours.
> The only thing that differs is his "_earnings per hour_"
> - a metric I personally don't care about becuase all I want to know as a business guy is how much of a return I got on my investment... and the time I invest in driving is my own, otherwise non-productive time. And yes, I agree: YMMV.
> ...


For once, I agree with you. Much more telling to what you actually make is your gross revenue per mile driven. Most of us will use the standard mileage deduction, after all. If you deduct the mileage rate for all the miles you have to drive to make that dollar figure, including to and from your happy hunting grounds, and you have gross revenues left of about $1 per mile, you are probably doing OK. Much under $1, and you are probably doing poorly.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Greguzzi said:


> OK. Good man. I am the same way and would play it exactly as you seem to be doing, were I in a place that paid do little per mile and per minute.
> 
> What I would like to point out to others, then, is that you spent more time at this than the Uber counter of 6 hours suggests, so you are actually grossing (before expenses) quite a bit less per hour than $200/6 hours. Based on first and last fares, it appears to be more like $200 in 8 hours of trying. How many miles and hours spent getting yourself into position to make this amount? If you don't mind doing so, let's run the numbers and see what you actually made in this best-case scenario.


yes since I do surge only, that doesn't count time leaving from trips (because I turned it off unless its still surging)
So I had the app on for 6 hours, but was out for about 8/9 hours,including lunch break
My meter said 134miles from leaving out my house to back home(including the lunch break and 7-11 stop). If you do surge only you're going to encounter dead miles, thats unavoidable. Only way to even have the possible of close to zero dead miles is to keep app on and do regular rate. If you do surge only, there will be times where you are just sitting. I bring a tablet along to chat on this forum and watch movies until the next surge crops up.


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## YoungMD243 (Jan 25, 2016)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I am just wondering, how many weeks/months did you read up on posts on UP before finally signing up?
> 
> It seems likely that if one starts their research here reading up on UP posts to gain insights and vicarious experience on TNC driving, the more one learns about the industry (pay, risk, pax, costs of operating a vehicle, etc.) the less likely he or she will sign up to drive.
> 
> That's why I was interested to find out how many weeks or months you were reading at UP and how many posts and what types of posts you had read when you decided you wanted to do it.


I have friends that driver Uber so I had a few few testimonials from the whole Uber experience. Yes, I did do my research. As I stated in another post, if you're driving 40+ hours a week long term then it might hurt you in the long run but if you part time and do it short term, you may actually profit if you straigize a bit.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

YoungMD243 said:


> I have friends that driver Uber so I had a few few testimonials from the whole Uber experience. Yes, I did do my research. As I stated in another post, if you're driving 40+ hours a week long term then it might hurt you in the long run but if you part time and do it short term, you may actually profit if you straigize a bit.


While you're right, be carefult o draw conslusions about your situation based on the experience of others. EVERY driver and car and situation is unique. Two drivers working the same # of hours in the same market can (and do) have dramatically different results.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

The route I took








j

these are my numbers, half talk of gas used










and remember the $206 I made is net. AFTER uber's cut
my last ride was way out Gaithersburg, so it was 25-30 dead miles back home
Taking regular rate rides to get same amount im sure my dead miles would be about 3 for every 1 paid mile


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Bart McCoy said:


> yes since I do surge only, that doesn't count time leaving from trips (because I turned it off unless its still surging)
> So I had the app on for 6 hours, but was out for about 8/9 hours,including lunch break
> My meter said 134miles from leaving out my house to back home(including the lunch break and 7-11 stop). If you do surge only you're going to encounter dead miles, thats unavoidable. Only way to even have the possible of close to zero dead miles is to keep app on and do regular rate. If you do surge only, there will be times where you are just sitting. I bring a tablet along to chat on this forum and watch movies until the next surge crops up.


Thanks. Let's run the numbers, then, and keep it stupid simple, just to show the overall trend. Since this is Uber, the totals shown are your cut of the fares, so $206.25/134 = $1.54 per mile driven. That is far, far above average, by the way.

If you had no other expenses above those allowed by the standard mileage deduction, your actual gross earnings are $1.54 - 0.54 = $1 per mile, for a gross day's earnings of $134. From this, of course, you will have to pay taxes, after your standard personal deduction, but have to pay self-employment tax on top of income tax.

Then, still keeping it very simple, the hourly wage. Let's use the 8 hours, to allow for your lunch: $134/8 = $16.75 per hour.

That's far and away above average, and this is a best-case scenario, under which you have maximized your earnings per mile by only driving surge. Anyone who's not doing the same or is driving for lesser rates, is doing much worse.

My results are comparable to yours, on average. To me, it doesn't really seem like much, for all that risk and all that effort, and I am questioning whether I will keep driving. What does it look like to you?


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Greguzzi said:


> Thanks. Let's run the numbers, then, and keep it stupid simple, just to show the overall trend. Since this is Uber, the totals shown are your cut of the fares, so $206.25/134 = $1.54 per mile driven. That is far, far above average, by the way.
> 
> If you had no other expenses above those allowed by the standard mileage deduction, your actual gross earnings are $1.54 - 0.54 = $1 per mile, for a gross day's earnings of $134. From this, of course, you will have to pay taxes, after your standard personal deduction, but have to pay self-employment tax on top of income tax.
> 
> ...


I looked in my app to get the exact numbers. 140miles driven and 10 hours out, although of course, most was just sitting watching my tablet waiting on surge but technically I guess u can call that working.But safe to say there could be couple hours of doing nothing but making over ten bucks if you use idle time to factor in "work"


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

JimS said:


> No you don't. My day job doesn't pay me to drive to work.


I never said to add in the miles on your drive to your regular job. You should add in all miles from the time you leave either your home or your job to go seeking fares on Uber or Lyft. If you don't do that, you're not using honest figures to calculate what you earn or don't earn. But do whatever you want in that regard.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I will likely delete it next week for being irrelevant or useless info.


Your deleted posts are leaving holes all over the forum sections! If it's irrelevant - please don't post it.
This isn't SnapChat!


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Bart McCoy said:


> I looked in my app to get the exact numbers. 140miles driven and 10 hours out, although of course, most was just sitting watching my tablet waiting on surge but technically I guess u can call that working.But safe to say there could be couple hours of doing nothing but making over ten bucks if you use idle time to factor in "work"


OK, then. Watching your tablet waiting on surge definitely counts as time seeking fares. A few hours and a few miles can make a significant difference. Let's see what the result is here:

$206/140 = $1.47 per mile gross revenue.

$1.47 - $0.54 = 0.93 per mile gross earnings.

0.93 x 140 = $130.20 gross earnings.

$130.20/10 = $13.02 gross earnings per hour.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Greguzzi said:


> OK, then. Watching your tablet waiting on surge definitely counts as time seeking fares. A few hours and a few miles can make a significant difference. Let's see what the result is here:
> 
> $206/140 = $1.47 per mile gross revenue.
> 
> ...


Well yeah, but we all know about the IRS deduction, definitely costing me less than that. I have new car and just paying for oil changes and maybe tires for next couple of years,and gas of course. Currently $1.70/gal in my area.

It kinda depends on how u value your time,me sitting around waiting on surges doesn't bother me if theres nothing else I really want to do on my free time. If so, I just do it,and get back to Ubering later. I could minimize all downtime but not doing regular rate constant for a 6hour slot. So for now, I'll take it. Its a nice supplement to my main job,for now. Uber lowers it to Atlanta,Detroit or Dallas levels, then ill probably bow out even for surges. I would have to accept only 3.0x and up, which probably wouldn't be often or near me


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> OK, then. Watching your tablet waiting on surge definitely counts as time seeking fares. A few hours and a few miles can make a significant difference.


There's another thread here about deadhead miles... a more appropriate place to continue this [interesting and valuable!] discussion:
https://uberpeople.net/threads/do-y...do-you-test-driving-in-different-areas.57963/
... not required - but it does help keep things organized for those trying to find information when doing searches.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Bart McCoy said:


> Well yeah, but we all know about the IRS deduction, definitely costing me less than that. I have new car and just paying for oil changes and maybe tires for next couple of years,and gas of course. Currently $1.70/gal in my area.
> 
> It kinda depends on how u value your time,me sitting around waiting on surges doesn't bother me if theres nothing else I really want to do on my free time. If so, I just do it,and get back to Ubering later. I could minimize all downtime but not doing regular rate constant for a 6hour slot. So for now, I'll take it. Its a nice supplement to my main job,for now. Uber lowers it to Atlanta,Detroit or Dallas levels, then ill probably bow out even for surges. I would have to accept only 3.0x and up, which probably wouldn't be often or near me


Fair enough. Now, at least, you know what you are really making or not making and can decide whether it's worth it based on facts. In the scheme of things you are doing much, much better than the average driver.

Monitor your $/per mile driven metric. If it dips much below $1, your earnings plummet rapidly.


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Gas is the SMALLEST piece of the equation, unless you got ur head in the sand! If gas was free, you still lose money at these rates!


I agree. 
I have a Prius. 
I get 480 miles on a tank of 10 gallon fuel. Today I paid $1.72 to buy it. I get 3% cash back. Real cost of fuel to me is $1.72 x 0.97 = $1.67 per gallon.
10 gallons, $16.70 at today's prices.
16.70/480 miles = $0.035/mile. this is the cost of gas for me. 
Even if gas doubles, on an average trip wich is 7 miles from request to completion, it would add 7 miles x $0.035 = $0.25 cents!

Just because gas went from 3.xx to 1.70s, my gas savings are not making me bank. In the same time, Uber slashed prices more than 50%. That 50% took all the profit. We are right now below cost. Uber banks on IRS deductions and believes people will be able to offset all their profits with IRS mileage deductions and not have to pay any taxes on it. This is what is wrong with this business model. for that reason, I am no longer driving. I feel insulted.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> But the surges are more frequent and last longer. Doesn't that bring your earnings back to the level before the fare cuts?


I'm in houston. It used to surge a lot more than it does now. So no. Not here.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

YoungMD243 said:


> "Here's the real world calculations,
> 
> Can you pay your bills.
> Can you make your car payment, if any,
> ...


If your car blows up before you finish paying for it (because of the extra miles), what then?

How are you making money if your car is in the shop, or you get in an accident?

Oh and if you're injured and can't drive, then what?

Or uber deactivates you?

What you describe is worse than a crappy paycheck to paycheck job because there is no work men's comp, no unemployment.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> This is a nitpick of mine and I am very much in the minority with how I look at time...
> but his earnings are exactly the same whether he was online for 6 hours, 2 hours or 12 hours.
> The only thing that differs is his "_earnings per hour_"
> - a metric I personally don't care about becuase all I want to know as a business guy is how much of a return I got on my investment... and the time I invest in driving is my own, otherwise non-productive time. And yes, I agree: YMMV.
> ...


I don't consider leisure time non-productive. Otherwise why not work anytime you're not sleeping? You need down time for mental health, not to mention if you actually have friends or family you'd like to see once in a while.

Whether it's as an employee or contractor I'd rather work 40 hours rather than 80 for the same paycheck.


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## chet (Jan 29, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That was tax year 2015.
> For 2016 the std deduction is $0.55/mi.
> [EDIT... I keep typing that wrong!]
> 
> ...


Duly noted, my info was not up to date.(I don't know what the STD deduction is and am not sure I want to find out! lol) Do you think this section 179 rate is a good standard to use? btw you say it is $.55 then post the quote that says it is $.54.
The issue is not whether the rate is $.575, $ .55, or $.54 ! I was trying to point out that there is a standard mileage rate (SMR) that factors in all variable costs. And from this standard rate you can calculate your break even rate based on paid miles divided by total miles driven to get a paid mile percentage( PMP). To calculate your break even divide SMR by (PMP) and divide again by 75% to get what you gross pay per mile is to break even. The rate given is just an example to show that a lot more needs to be considered than just the price of gas that the OP suggested! using SMR of $.54 and PMP of 50% the equation would look something like this. .54/.50/.75= $1.54 So when they offer $.65 per mile in some cities, to figure out what that is actually paying you you can flip that equation around. $.65*.75*.50=$.24 Your total cost of operating the vehicle has to be less than $.24 per mile to break even. Any profit from miles driven has to come from the difference of what it costs you to operate and that figure.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

chet said:


> btw you say it is $.55 then post the quote that says it is $.54.


Yup. And inbetween those two line is a note that says "EDIT". You have to read between the lines.


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## Cocobird (Dec 9, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> COST OF GAS
> Cleveland, OH​
> July 2015 - $2.75/gal
> Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
> ...


Do you believe Uber will ever increase those prices when your expenses go back up?


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

42% drop .
did our car insurance go up what %.
buy having a clean new car for me to drive what % of value did i lose . 100% sure more than irs says. gas is only a fraction of expense.
did you wash your car more....


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Cocobird said:


> Do you believe Uber will ever increase those prices when your expenses go back up?


I believe gas prices will stay low for several months yet. You can gain insight into this by looking at the "futures" market for "crude" oil such as Brent Crude or West Texas Intermediate. (The buyer of a "futures" contract is entitled to take physical delivery of the commodity at a stated future date by paying a stated price; however in real life most "futures" contracts are settled on that date with cash differential viz a viz the-then "spot" price, rather than actual physical delivery). The "spot" market prices for crudes largely determine the retail price of gasoline we pay at the pump.

With or without gas price increase, I believe it is likely that Uber will raise the UberX fare rates in some cities in the near to medium terms, because the current rates have caused many drivers to significantly cut down on their driving hours.

Just two personal opinions.


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## Troubleshooter (Jan 27, 2016)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I believe gas prices will stay low for several months yet. You can gain insight into this by looking at the "futures" market for "crude" oil such as Brent Crude or West Texas Intermediate. (The buyer of a "futures" contract is entitled to take physical delivery of the commodity at a stated future date by paying a stated price; however in real life most "futures" contracts are settled on that date with cash differential viz a viz the-then "spot" price, rather than actual physical delivery). The "spot" market prices for crudes largely determine the retail price of gasoline we pay at the pump.
> 
> With or without gas price increase, I believe it is likely that Uber will raise the UberX fare rates in some cities in the near to medium terms, because the current rates have caused many drivers to significantly cut down on their driving hours.
> 
> Just two personal opinions.


The real problem is different depending on an individual. For me who also has two cars on Uber, one is just X, the other is SELECT and below. I receive mostly X rides which are not worth it however when driving the SELECT car, I have no choice but to accept each ride. Right now I drive for something to do as a filler when my Consulting is slow which is my "spare" time so the money isn't a priority for me. What is different now is that I have no interest in driving if it actually cost me money which it has. Those that are suffering the most are the drivers that have no other source of income. They now are forced to drive when Uber dictates in order to just "get by". I think this is a serious matter and in my opinion, and an insult to those drivers that have been loyal to Uber. It's a betrayal.
In the past month I personally know too many Uber drivers that are so upset, they have found other part time gigs and are either no longer driving or are only driving when they have nothing else to do. Driving part time just isn't worthwhile any longer and I for one will never refer a friend to Uber or Lyft.
To be clear, I have taken this opinion directly to Uber many times as a person who has had my own business for over 40 years but
they are in denial and I don't believe anything will change any time soon.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Troubleshooter said:


> The real problem is different depending on an individual. For me who also has two cars on Uber, one is just X, the other is SELECT and below. I receive mostly X rides which are not worth it however when driving the SELECT car, I have no choice but to accept each ride. Right now I drive for something to do as a filler when my Consulting is slow which is my "spare" time so the money isn't a priority for me. What is different now is that I have no interest in driving if it actually cost me money which it has. Those that are suffering the most are the drivers that have no other source of income. They now are forced to drive when Uber dictates in order to just "get by". I think this is a serious matter and in my opinion, and an insult to those drivers that have been loyal to Uber. It's a betrayal.
> In the past month I personally know too many Uber drivers that are so upset, they have found other part time gigs and are either no longer driving or are only driving when they have nothing else to do. Driving part time just isn't worthwhile any longer and I for one will never refer a friend to Uber or Lyft.
> To be clear, I have taken this opinion directly to Uber many times as a person who has had my own business for over 40 years but
> they are in denial and I don't believe anything will change any time soon.


Thanks for the feedback from the driving field. Do you personally think sometime in 2016 Uber and/or Lyft will raise their UberX / Lyft fare rates up a little?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Cocobird said:


> Do you believe Uber will ever increase those prices when your expenses go back up?


Yes - but not because "my expenses go up" - but becuase Uber is a data driven company hell-bent on the user experience. If expenses become such that no drivers are on the road due to low earnings (or outright losses!), I believe Uber will simply increase fares to attract enough drivers to meet the demand (just like it's famous Surge algorithym does).

People here love talking about Uber in 'personal' terms (I do too), but in my opinion, that's not the real world of multi-national, multi-billion businesses. I think the reasons why Uber does things like raise and lower fares isn't nearly as complicated as some would like to make it out to be. Kalanick has talked publicly about it what drives the company: Supply & Demand, Growth and Marketshare.


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## Troubleshooter (Jan 27, 2016)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Thanks for the feedback from the driving field. Do you personally think sometime in 2016 Uber and/or Lyft will raise their UberX / Lyft fare rates up a little?


I would hope so however based on their current attitude I think that if they do, it will be minimal.


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## Cocobird (Dec 9, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I believe gas prices will stay low for several months yet. You can gain insight into this by looking at the "futures" market for "crude" oil such as Brent Crude or West Texas Intermediate. (The buyer of a "futures" contract is entitled to take physical delivery of the commodity at a stated future date by paying a stated price; however in real life most "futures" contracts are settled on that date with cash differential viz a viz the-then "spot" price, rather than actual physical delivery). The "spot" market prices for crudes largely determine the retail price of gasoline we pay at the pump.
> 
> With or without gas price increase, I believe it is likely that Uber will raise the UberX fare rates in some cities in the near to medium terms, because the current rates have caused many drivers to significantly cut down on their driving hours.
> 
> Just two personal opinions.


Um, yeah, I have no clue why you believe Uber will raise rates. They will just advertise for more drivers.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Cocobird said:


> Um, yeah, I have no clue why you believe Uber will raise rates. They will just advertise for more drivers.


At the current fare rates in many cities, if one drives UberX or Lyft only, and if one incurs one deadhead mile per one paid mile, without any surge, the driver is earning way, way below minimum wage (after his/her car expenses). With surges, earnings may jump back up to above, or even well above minimum wage. But constant surges are not good for business. Businesses like stability, it makes planning, strategizing, capital spending, funding, hiring, that much easier. Plus, in many cities, Uber did raise fare rates before. Based on the combination of all these, plus business common sense observed in other industries applied to this industry if appropriate, I would say the chances are better than 50%, that Uber or Lyft or both will raise rates sometime this year in some cities.


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## Dts08 (Feb 25, 2015)

Do not tie rates to gas prices...they will go back up again but the rates won't..


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Dts08 said:


> Do not tie rates to gas prices...they will go back up again but the rates won't..


Right. These two are, to a large extent, not significantly correlated.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Right. These two are, to a large extent, not significantly correlated.


- what you earn and what it costs you to earn that amount are completely unrelated? Not significantly related?
Odd - that's not how it looks on a balance sheet.
<smh>
Let me know if you still feel that way if you ever become a driver.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> - what you earn and what it costs you to earn that amount are completely unrelated? Not significantly related?
> Odd - that's not how it looks on a balance sheet.
> <smh>
> Let me know if you still feel that way if you ever become a driver.


You really need to read much more carefully!

You are talking about Uber driver's earnings and costs, which I agree. Drivers's costs, even gas costs, are huge when compared to their earnings. A smart person doesn't have to be a driver to know gas is a huge costs to the driver and it is eating at their core as we speak, even at its current low (gas) price.

But that poster was talking about Uber's decision to raise or lower fare rates. I was responding to that poster about Uber's decision.

BTW, the words I used, "not significantly correlated", is in no way the same as what you equated it to, in your words, "completely unrelated."

Half of the people on UP just like to emotionally rant, some actually like to learn something. The best is to employ the schoolyard rule. When you see words like "significantly uncorrelated" if you have not taken more than six three-credit courses in statistics (no, "Business Statistics" you took with business majors don't count), you refrain from responding to that post. Otherwise it will get into the case of intellectuals arguing with a cab driver in New York, or a bully trying to beat up the valedictorian in a school yard--both will waste time, both will learn nothing from the other side, and both will be punished.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

I drive a Prius and strive to do everything else right—absolute minimum dead miles, only drive when I think surge is likely, always try to make Lyft PDB, cherry-pick my rides, and so on. In my case, average fuels costs are about $0.05 per mile, whereas my post fees revenue for that average mile is about $1.60, or 3.125 percent of my total revenue.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> I drive a Prius and strive to do everything else right-absolute minimum dead miles, only drive when I think surge is likely, always try to make Lyft PDB, cherry-pick my rides, and so on. In my case, average fuels costs are about $0.05 per mile, whereas my post fees revenue for that average mile is about $1.60, or 3.125 percent of my total revenue.


A few years back when I was considering buying a used hybrid Camry I read some articles and found that hybrids need to replace the electric battery every 150K miles or so (let's put it in the 100K to 200K miles range). The cost of a new such battery was estimated to be $2K to $3K. At that time I did some calculations and came to the conclusion that the savings in gas was about offset by the pro-rated per mile cost of the battery. And of course, the more the battery is working, the faster it will need replacing (for example city constant stop and go slow pace driving, etc.). In other words, the more the car runs on electricity, the higher MPG one can get, but the savings in gas per mile is offset by the faster that use of electricity is wearing out the electric battery. Either gas or electric battery the cost of operating a similar vehicle in terms of gas or hybrid (for example, comparing gas Camry to hybrid Camry) is about the same. Same with smaller annual maintenance bills for hybrids, but when a major repair hits, hybrids may cost more than traditional cars, so pro-rated it comes to about the same. I always believe there is no such thing as a free lunch. So the IRS can rest assured that the std mileage deduction roughly applies to the avg car. One can have a fully depreciated car thinking he saves 15 cents per mile in depreciation when compared to his brother who has just paid $30K for a new car expected to drive 200K miles ($30K divided by 200K miles = 15 cents per mile). But that new car is going to cost much less in repairs than the fully depreciated car.

Since you are a Prius driver and might have had the experience of replacing the battery, what do you think of these?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> But that poster was talking about Uber's decision to raise or lower fare rates. I was responding to that poster about Uber's decision.


Ah - then nevermind.
As to the rest, <yawn>


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Ah - then nevermind.
> As to the rest, <yawn>


You remind me of the target audience of 99% of the mass media programs. Simple-minded. Superficial. Short reading and attention span. Sensational. Easily bored. See everything only from your position (uber driver for example). Unwilling to read and learn about anything else unless it is about you or your job. Egotistical. Rude.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> 99% of the mass media programs are targeted to audience like you. Simple-minded. Superficial. Short reading and attention span. Sensational. Easily bored.


LOL! Yup... riiiight. Because you know sooo much about me and everything else that you bloviate verbosely about here.
Yeah... you're going to teach me a lot. 
Let me know when you drive 1 mile for Uber or Lyft. 
Until then, your lecturing me is nothing more than hot air.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> LOL! Yup... riiiight. Because you know sooo much about me and everything else that you bloviate verbosely about here.
> Yeah... you're going to teach me a lot.
> Let me know when you drive 1 mile for Uber or Lyft.
> Until then, your lecturing me is nothing more than hot air.


I have never tried to lecture you or anybody else, as can be seen from the nice tone and courteous way I write, including mentioning other sides' views. You felt that way likely because of your intellectual inferiority complex. Being rude is the natural response to such feelings among people like you, and now you are getting some of those back from your passengers as a driver. About learning--if one wants to learn, she will and can learn on her own. If one doesn't want to learn, nobody can teach her anything.

In fact, after knowing you were turned off by some of the information I shared here, I have been deleting my posts that I felt you wouldn't understand and felt threatened by. And when I did that, you got mad. One simply can't win with people with erratic behaviors like you. I have also noticed that your posts' tone and emotions vary from day to day, depending perhaps on how passengers treated you that day. Some days you are depressed, some days you are more rational and happier, some days you are so mad you just want to rant and be mean to people. Just don't post when you are mad at the world okay? Only post when you are feeling nice.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I have never tried to lecture you or anybody else, as can be seen from the nice tone and courteous way I write, including mentioning other sides' views. You felt that way likely because of your intellectual inferiority complex. Being rude is the natural response to such feelings among people like you, and now you are getting some of those back from your passengers as a driver. About learning--if one wants to learn, she will and can learn on her own. If one doesn't want to learn, nobody can teach her anything.
> 
> In fact, after knowing you were turned off by some of the information I shared here, I have been deleting my posts that I felt you wouldn't understand and felt threatened by. And when I did that, you got mad. One simply can't win with people with erratic behaviors like you. I have also noticed that your posts' tone and emotions vary from day to day, depending perhaps on how passengers treated that day. Some days you are depressed, some days you are more rational and happier, some days you are so mad you just want to rant and be mean to people. Just don't post when you are mad at the world okay? Only post when you are feeling nice.


Let me know what your therapist says about your posting hundreds of messages a day to a website devoted to an activity in whch you do not participate. Nah - don't bother. Your psycho-analysis is of no interest to me - just like your posts.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> A few years back when I was considering buying a used hybrid Camry I read some articles and found that hybrids need to replace the electric battery every 150K miles or so (let's put it in the 100K to 200K miles range). The cost of a new such battery was estimated to be $2K to $3K. At that time I did some calculations and came to the conclusion that the savings in gas was about offset by the pro-rated per mile cost of the battery. And of course, the more the battery is working, the faster it will need replacing (for example city constant stop and go slow pace driving, etc.). In other words, the more the car runs on electricity, the higher MPG one can get, but the savings in gas per mile is offset by the faster that use of electricity is wearing out the electric battery. Either gas or electric battery the cost of operating a similar vehicle in terms of gas or hybrid (for example, comparing gas Camry to hybrid Camry) is about the same. Same with smaller annual maintenance bills for hybrids, but when a major repair hits, hybrids may cost more than traditional cars, so pro-rated it comes to about the same. I always believe there is no such thing as a free lunch. So the IRS can rest assured that the std mileage deduction roughly applies to the avg car. One can have a fully depreciated car thinking he saves 15 cents per mile in depreciation when compared to his brother who has just paid $30K for a new car expected to drive 200K miles ($30K divided by 200K miles = 15 cents per mile). But that new car is going to cost much less in repairs than the fully depreciated car.
> 
> Since you are a Prius driver and might have had the experience of replacing the battery, what do you think of these?


I did my due diligence before buying a Prius and researched the battery issue thoroughly. Here's what I found out:

1) Batteries often last 300,000+ miles. There's documentation of one being traded in at over 400,000 miles while still on its original battery. I'm fine with that, since I planned on getting a Prius with 150,000 miles or so, because that is what I could comfortably afford to pay cash for and could easily sell if the Uber/Lyft thing didn't work out.

2) Battery failures are often a function of the climate in which they have been operated-with extremely hot climates being most likely to induce failure, and cool but not cold climates being least likely to induce failure. I live in a cool but not cold climate, so I'm fine with that.

3) Prius battery packs are composed of individual battery cells bussed together to make high voltage. Each cell is individually replaceable, and usually a "battery failure" is one cell or maybe two failing. Cells are available for $50-ish each, and changing them out looks like duck soup, given the tools and skills I already possess. I can take the risk that I might have to replace $100 worth of cells at some point.

I also had several other criteria in the car I would buy for this business, including that it have built-in nav (backup system in case of app failure or inadequacy) and leather seats (easy puke clean-up). I watched Craigslist until one came up that I could afford comfortably, and it was a 2008 Prius Touring with $168,000 for $6000 that I bought last October. It turned out to be an extremely wise choice.

Does that answer your question?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> I did my due diligence before buying ... I also had several other criteria in the car I would buy for this business... one came up that I could afford comfortably, and it was a 2008 Prius Touring with 168,000 for $6000


Exactly what I do when buying a car for any purpose. If you have patience and know exactly what you're looking for, it's not difficult to find a great car for this work that is already mostly depreciated - whether your priority is fuel econonmy, the ability to drive XL or SELECT or a vehicle that meets both personal and rideshare needs. About the worst thing anyone can do for driving rideshare is to purchase or lease a new car and get sucked into becoming a TNCs wetdream as you line their pockets at your expense.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Let me know what your therapist says about your posting hundreds of messages a day to a website devoted to an activity in whch you do not participate. Nah - don't bother. Your psycho-analysis is of no interest to me - just like your posts.


Readers of UP can easily read and tell how delusional and bipolar you are. How angry at the world you are. You attribute your life problems to others rather than to yourself. You think Travis is your problem at your Uber job. Travis didn't point a gun at your head to force you to drive for Uber. But you call him names that you wouldn't use in person when you meet him. However, the most obvious part is your rudeness. The saddest thing is, you have fallen into the trap of cyber bullying--in normal face to face life you probably are not that directly and openly rude, but on the Internet you would say things that you wouldn't say in person to another.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Were I a rat, I'd report you both for confrontational posts.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> I did my due diligence before buying a Prius and researched the battery issue thoroughly. Here's what I found out:
> 
> 1) Batteries often last 300,000+ miles. There's documentation of one being traded in at over 400,000 miles while still on its original battery. I'm fine with that, since I planned on getting a Prius with 150,000 miles or so, because that is what I could comfortably afford to pay cash for and could easily sell if the Uber/Lyft thing didn't work out.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the useful information. Yes, you did answer the questions from a Prius owner's perspective. You did get a decent deal on your Prius. If you use it for 120K miles even with a zero salvage value, you are looking at a very low 5 cents per miles in depreciation ($6,000 divided by 120K miles = 5 cents per mile). Less than 5 cents per mile if you assign a positive non-zero salvage value to it.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Readers of UP can easily read and tell how delusional and bipolar you are.


I have no idea what you are talking about (and suspect that neither do you). I also don't care.
I'd say 'Uber on' - but you don't drive, so that would be pointless.
Ah... 'Bloviate On'... that's better.
There's a 'block user' feature here on the site. I sue it. I hope you will too.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> Were I a rat, I'd report you both for confrontational posts.


Read carefully and see who posts negative comments unprovoked. I am consistently nice to all posters. I didn't directly respond to the two obnoxious and rude posters until they had been rude to my posts several times without my response. After five or more bullying comments from them without me responding, there is a point you realize, if you don't respond, other readers may mistakenly think I am conceding to their uneducated cheap shots. Again, read carefully each post of ours. His is always a new post, unprovoked, out of the blue, likely after a bad day out where he was greatly offended or belittled or humiliated by a passenger whom he had to suck up to for a few bucks, then he came in here to vent and he picked the easiest target as all bullies do--the nicest poster on UP. All my such posts (except this one) was in direct response to his unprovoked post arising from his bad day at work.

If I use the block feature, you will be able to rant and rant against my posts without my response (like the first five to ten of your negative comments on my posts which I didn't care to respond to). Without my response, some readers may mistakenly think that I am conceding to your uneducated, angry cheap shots.


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

Greguzzi said:


> I did my due diligence before buying a Prius and researched the battery issue thoroughly. Here's what I found out:
> 
> 1) Batteries often last 300,000+ miles. There's documentation of one being traded in at over 400,000 miles while still on its original battery. I'm fine with that, since I planned on getting a Prius with 150,000 miles or so, because that is what I could comfortably afford to pay cash for and could easily sell if the Uber/Lyft thing didn't work out.
> 
> ...


My Prius is at 193K and has been very dependeble. Battery can be refurbished at very reasonable prices if I need to. there is a local dealer specialized in Prius cars (www.tampahybrids.com) and I met the owner Todd personally. if I have to refurbish, I might go and have him do it for me. right now, the cost of a mile for me at current gas prices is about $.0375 cents. not even 4 cents a mile. it doesn't matter how much people hate a Prius, i like it being a low maintenance and dependable car.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

LOL... The Self Realized, Self Appointed "Nicest Poster On UP".
Love it. I've gotta get that medal ordered.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberXTampa said:


> My Prius is at 193K and has been very dependeble. Battery can be refurbished at very reasonable prices if I need to. there is a local dealer specialized in Prius cars (www.tampahybrids.com) and I met the owner Todd personally. if I have to refurbish, I might go and have him do it for me. right now, the cost of a mile for me at current gas prices is about $.0375 cents. not even 4 cents a mile. it doesn't matter how much people hate a Prius, i like it being a low maintenance and dependable car.


Question (for you and Greguzzi )... some people here have said the suspension on their Prius (Pri-i? Priuses?.... whatever) took a beating from the constant heavy weight loads of rideshare over lousy roads. It was one of the reasons I steered away (because Cleveland roads are hell - and beyond hell in the winter months). What's your experience been?


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Question (for you and Greguzzi )... some people here have said the suspension on their Prius (Pri-i? Priuses?.... whatever) took a beating from the constant heavy weight loads of rideshare over lousy roads. It was one of the reasons I steered away (because Cleveland roads are hell - and beyond hell in the winter months). What's your experience been?


Suspension of a Prius is not that good compared to heavier cars. You hear a lot of noise. But, this is true for all light weight cars with emphasis on fuel economy. When I ride my Lexus SUV, I feel like I am in heaven if this is what you want to know. I can tell the difference. I have a RX300 and a RX450h. If UberX paid enough, I would replace my Prius with a Lexus GS450H in a heartbeat.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberXTampa said:


> Suspension of a Prius is not that good compared to heavier cars. You hear a lot of noise. But, this is true for all light weight cars with emphasis on fuel economy. When I ride my Lexus SUV, I feel like I am in heaven if this is what you want to know. I can tell the difference. I have a RX300 and a RX450h. If UberX paid enough, I would replace my Prius with a Lexus GS450H in a heartbeat.


I'm not concerened about the 'feel' (although I personally prefer heavier cars both for their driving performance and comfort level) - I was wondering about repairs and maintenance issues and costs for shocks/struts, control arms, tie-rod ends, etc.


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I'm not concerened about the 'feel' (although I personally prefer heavier cars both for their driving performance and comfort level) - I was wondering about repairs and maintenance issues and costs for shocks/struts, control arms, tie-rod ends, etc.


I have not repaired any of these parts so far.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberXTampa said:


> I have not repaired any of these parts so far.


Good to hear. Can I ask, year of your Prius - and how many 'rideshare' miles on it versus normal miles?


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Good to hear. Can I ask, year of your Prius - and how many 'rideshare' miles on it versus normal miles?


61K ride share miles, total miles 193K, I owned the car since it was 76K, year 2008


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## bezi_NY (Feb 28, 2015)

Makes no difference. Uber will import immigrants to continuslly lower rates. If it can do a billion fares a day globally and earn 1 dollar of each fare net it's 365 million a year. Ubers goal is volume for now to kill all competition and gain recognition for fastest reliable service and obviously market share. The model is broken to me. After seeing the faces of the protesters today at LGA, I don't think these guys will ever trust this company again. Guys here in New York are stuck some of them with high premiums on commercial insurance high expenses over all. Why would Uber ever think of maintenance when it doesn't have to. Why even mention the word to potential drivers? Any transport company that has to purchase vehicles worries about maintenance, oh forgot uber is a tech company


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

right now prii are sold at dirt cheap prices.
I have a dealer friend, he has a 2011 model Prius with 40K miles on it, he says he is willing to sell it for $11K. but if you go woth a high mileage older model that still qualifies for UberX, you can get it for 4-5K cash and not worry about installments.


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

bezi_NY said:


> The model is broken to me


When the dust settles, the story will be the greatest wealth transfer in modern history. From those who need it to the elite 1%. 
There was an article in zero hedge about how the richest 62% now owns more than half of everything in the world. the trend continues and has been accelerating.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Thanks for the useful information. Yes, you did answer the questions from a Prius owner's perspective. You did get a decent deal on your Prius. If you use it for 120K miles even with a zero salvage value, you are looking at a very low 5 cents per miles in depreciation ($6,000 divided by 120K miles = 5 cents per mile). Less than 5 cents per mile if you assign a positive non-zero salvage value to it.


Yes. A high-mileage used Prius is the most perfect combination of low operating cost and low depreciation per mile available. As I've said, I did my due diligence and tried to maximize every chance that I would succeed in the ride-share business.

Even given all of that, there's not much money left after I account for all the miles and all the expenses. I'll keep going until the next rate cut and then re-assess. Anybody who hasn't done all of these things or is driving for lower rates than the $1.35/mile and $0.24/minute rates I drive for is probably losing money.

Certainly, the return I've experienced is very, very far from being the "life-changing money" that Uber promises in their ads. I cannot even imagine what the average knucklehead who leases a new vehicle for this is experiencing, if they have the courage to look.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> LOL... The Self Realized, Self Appointed "Nicest Poster On UP".
> Love it. I've gotta get that medal ordered.


I accept!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberXTampa said:


> right now prii are sold at dirt cheap prices.
> I have a dealer friend, he has a 2011 model Prius with 40K miles on it, he says he is willing to sell it for $11K. but if you go with a high mileage older model that still qualifies for UberX, you can get it for 4-5K cash and not work about installments.


I'm hearing that since gas prices have dropped, hybrid salaes have died (and SUV sales have gone through the roof). Sounds about right to me.


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I'm hearing that since gas prices have dropped, hybrid salaes have died (and SUV sales have gone through the roof). Sounds about right to me.


If you are the kind of person to buy things at wholesale prices, and never pay retail, Prii or any other hybrids present that opportunity right now.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Question (for you and Greguzzi )... some people here have said the suspension on their Prius (Pri-i? Priuses?.... whatever) took a beating from the constant heavy weight loads of rideshare over lousy roads. It was one of the reasons I steered away (because Cleveland roads are hell - and beyond hell in the winter months). What's your experience been?


Our roads are lousy here, too. Steep hills. Lots of cobblestones and potholes everywhere. They look like they were bombed in WWII and never fixed, because they get zero maintenance. The brand-new bike lanes that no one uses are beautiful and smooth, though! Oh, and the new tracks for the choo-choo trains and street cars that no one rides are magnificent, too! Next, they will replace all the car lanes with horse-paths, thereby pushing those icky, icky cars off our streets. _Forward to the 18th Century, Comrades! _But I digress.

One of the reasons Prii get great mileage is because they are light in sprung weight and relatively high in unsprung weight. This ratio of sung to unsprung weight works against ride quality, all else being equal. I would judge the ride quality to be at the lower end of the acceptable range. So far, with 10k or so miles put on, I have not had to replace suspension or steering components that already had over 150k on them. Almost certainly, I will at some point, but I have been saving a portion of the 0.54 deduction for this eventuality. I hope that will be enough, but it's really tough to predict such things. It is a Toyota, though. The reputation is good, and I take comfort from the fact that almost all the cabs in my area are Prii.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

UberXTampa said:


> right now prii are sold at dirt cheap prices.
> I have a dealer friend, he has a 2011 model Prius with 40K miles on it, he says he is willing to sell it for $11K. but if you go woth a high mileage older model that still qualifies for UberX, you can get it for 4-5K cash and not work about installments.


That would be a $15k car all day long here. Even with over 100k on the clock, it's a $12k car, here.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> That would be a $15k car all day long here. Even with over 100k on the clock, it's a $12k car, here.


You do realize that's twice you've just mentioned 'here' when you are the only one who knows where 'here' is, right? 
Hey, wherever you go, there you are. - george carlin

oh... and does this thread mean that others can now refer to you (plural) as 'PRIUS SHILLS'?
(shill being one of theeee most over used words on UP.net) hehe


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Here is East of Eden. And I would gladly shill for Toyota, as regards the superiority of its Prius for use in ride-share. Almost all taxis here in East of Eden are Prii. That's one reason the values of used Prii remain so high. Every one that comes up for sale and is a decent deal gets quickly snapped up by a ride-share driver or a cab company.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberXTampa said:


> Suspension of a Prius is not that good compared to heavier cars. You hear a lot of noise. But, this is true for all light weight cars with emphasis on fuel economy. When I ride my Lexus SUV, I feel like I am in heaven if this is what you want to know. I can tell the difference. I have a RX300 and a RX450h. If UberX paid enough, I would replace my Prius with a Lexus GS450H in a heartbeat.


Do you also do UberSelect, UberBlack, or UberSUV in your market?

On your personal trips, say visiting friends and family, shopping, eating out etc., which is the car that you use the most?


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Do you also do UberSelect, UberBlack, or UberSUV in your market?
> 
> On your personal trips, say visiting friends and family, shopping, eating out etc., which is the car that you use the most?


I only do UberX, never done others. I am hesitant using my better cars for Uber.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberXTampa said:


> right now prii are sold at dirt cheap prices.
> I have a dealer friend, he has a 2011 model Prius with 40K miles on it, he says he is willing to sell it for $11K. but if you go woth a high mileage older model that still qualifies for UberX, you can get it for 4-5K cash and not work about installments.


I have not researched on Prius much, but reading on UP opened my eyes, including this post of yours. Maybe you can shed some light on this anomaly in the used Priuses market like that which you have observed...

Question: Bearing in mind the adage that "there is no such thing as a free lunch," what do you think are the biggest few possible reasons/factors that have contributed to this likely significantly underpriced used Priuses?


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> I accept!


Greg, that's not fair, you are stealing my medal! I've rightly earned it!


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Greg, that's not fair, you are stealing my medal! I've rightly earned it!


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberXTampa said:


> If you are the kind of person to buy things at wholesale prices, and never pay retail, Prii or any other hybrids present that opportunity right now.


Every single "smart" millennial has been buying at wholesale prices and never pay retail...

By hailing an UberX.


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## Bruce DeVaux (Jan 30, 2016)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> COST OF GAS
> Cleveland, OH​
> July 2015 - $2.75/gal
> Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
> ...


rate cuts why?? our rates at 1.35 are already half yellow cab fares-- so why cut to .90-- cut any ones wage by 25% and it makes it hard to make a living-- sure lower gas is nice-- but nothing else about living has gone down


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I have not researched on Prius much, but reading on UP opened my eyes, including this post of yours. Maybe you can shed some light on this anomaly in the used Priuses market like that which you have observed...
> 
> Question: Bearing in mind the adage that "there is no such thing as a free lunch," what do you think are the biggest few possible reasons/factors that have contributed to this likely significantly underpriced used Priuses?


People simply don't like a Prius fro various reasons: How it looks, how much power it has, how much acceleration it has etc.. it is a car most peole don't like especially in the US unless they are a treehuger or a person putting a lot of miles trying to save on gas liek a ride share driver.

Other main reason why Prii at 100K+ miles being priced very low is the perception that cars usually start to die once they reach 100K miles. This might be true for some cars built with poor quality. But less so for a Japanese car. Even less so for a hybrid. And I mean any hybrid!

A hybrid's true mechanical age is not what you see on the odometer. It is at least 30% less than what you see on the odometer. A lot of the time the engine is not idleing or even running when the car is in motion or at a complete stop at a traffic light. At slow speeds car moves with electric power, engine is not even engaged. The A/C also runs from the battery and does not steal from the compression of the engine unlike most cars do. all these help keep the engine young. Brake system remains healthy because the regenerative power slowing the car down. When you consider all these things, you should see a 100K odometer reading at most a 70K odometer reading. Because this is how much the car could possibly age off.

These are teh main reasons why I believe a Prius is usually mispriced as a used car and it is a steal to buy one used. you can get a lot of repair free miles with a used prius unlike many other cars.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberXTampa said:


> People simply don't like a Prius fro various reasons: How it looks, how much power it has, how much acceleration it has etc.. it is a car most peole don't like especially in the US unless they are a treehuger or a person putting a lot of miles trying to save on gas liek a ride share driver.
> 
> Other main reason why Prii at 100K+ miles being priced very low is the perception that cars usually start to die once they reach 100K miles. This might be true for some cars built with poor quality. But less so for a Japanese car. Even less so for a hybrid. And I mean any hybrid!
> 
> ...


Thank you. The Prius seems to be very suitable for defensive drivers like me, for example, no fast acceleration, maintain constant, stable speed (cruising) almost all the way on the highways, etc. For such drivers, we/they probably use the gas engine far less (proportionally) than the average driver, thereby: A, we wear out the electric battery faster, and B, we wear out the gas engine far slower. So, for such drivers, maybe 100K miles on the odometer means only 60K miles for normal cars?! So, overall, for A, if the cost of replacing A or parts of A with OEM parts is as low priced as you have previously mentioned, then a used Prous is definitely a super awesome deal for drivers who want to keep their car operating costs down, TNC driving or not.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I have never tried to lecture you or anybody else, as can be seen from the nice tone and courteous way I write, including mentioning other sides' views. You felt that way likely because of your intellectual inferiority complex. Being rude is the natural response to such feelings among people like you, and now you are getting some of those back from your passengers as a driver. About learning--if one wants to learn, she will and can learn on her own. If one doesn't want to learn, nobody can teach her anything.
> 
> In fact, after knowing you were turned off by some of the information I shared here, I have been deleting my posts that I felt you wouldn't understand and felt threatened by. And when I did that, you got mad. One simply can't win with people with erratic behaviors like you. I have also noticed that your posts' tone and emotions vary from day to day, depending perhaps on how passengers treated you that day. Some days you are depressed, some days you are more rational and happier, some days you are so mad you just want to rant and be mean to people. Just don't post when you are mad at the world okay? Only post when you are feeling nice.


The reason IMO that others get irritated with you is that your tone is incredibly condescending.

Also, posting things you know will piss someone off and then trying to say you "fixed" it by deleting or editing the post after its been read is very passive-aggressive.

Just my 2 cents.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> The reason IMO that others get irritated with you is that your tone is incredibly condescending.
> 
> Also, posting things you know will piss someone off and then trying to say you "fixed" it by deleting or editing the post after its been read is very passive-aggressive.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


Give me some examples of condescending posts of mine. Please give examples that are typical of the majority of my posts, not the one or two percent of my posts. We prefer to be approximately correct, rather than exactly wrong.

Over the years I have found that millennials who have gone to college generally have no problems with my posts and enjoy my style of writing, academic, open-minded, covering all angles style with some jokes thrown in. The readers who feel offended tend to be older, less educated ones who from their life experience of having faced constant condescension from "those damn college boys/girls, who do they think they are!" (they get that a lot from some millennials as their passengers on an almost daily basis), it has become habitual for them whenever they see the first sign of anything that reminds them of "those damn college kids" it ticks them off (even a simple thing like using words like "likely", "mostly," "to a large extent,", "generally", "a non-zero positive number" etc., all of which are used for carrying very crucial meanings but in the ears of these inferior complex folks are nothing but show-offs). I have also learned from these folks that the majority of them support Donald Trump.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

The great majority of the posts I deleted were comments about business, economics, management etc., which I think usually tick people like you off. 

When I am writing my posts, I am primarily talking to 5-10 readers on UP that I think may enjoy or appreciate my writings in the following few days or so. About the other types of readers--I sincerely don't think people will waste their time continuously reading posts from the same writers from whom they don't think they can learn anything. For example, I used to read every post of Michael's (along with about fifteen other writers'). But lately, I only read his posts that are either responding to mine or which at first glance seem to contain drivers' field information. People's time is very valuable, I don't think people will want to read posts from someone whose posts they have found of zero use in the past. But sometimes they do that, apparently. You can't control how they spend their time. But as soon as at least one person is obviously upset about a post of mine for whatever reason, and as soon as I think five or so people who want to read that post have read it (say, a few days have passed), I am bending over backwards by deleting what I have spent time writing, just to appease that one single person who didn't know better how to use his own time. What's the deal with them? The more you don't agree with a writer, the more you want to read his/her posts in order to get more agitated and then attack him/her? It reminds me of how some drivers, the more they hate Travis, the lower the fare rates, the more they are hooked on the high of receiving pings and keep driving UberX.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Give me some examples of condescending posts of mine. Please give examples that are typical of the majority of my posts, not the one or two percent of my posts. We prefer to be approximately correct, rather than exactly wrong.
> 
> Over the years I have found that millennials who have gone to college generally have no problems with my posts and enjoy my style of writing, academic, open-minded, covering all angles style with some jokes thrown in. The readers who feel offended tend to be older, less educated ones who from their life experience of having faced constant condescension from "those damn college boys/girls, who do they think they are!" (they get that a lot from some millennials as their passengers on an almost daily basis), it has become habitual for them whenever they see the first sign of anything that reminds them of "those damn college kids" it ticks them off (even a simple thing like using words like "likely", "mostly," "to a large extent,", "generally", "a non-zero positive number" etc., all of which are used for carrying very crucial meanings but in the ears of these inferior complex folks are nothing but show-offs). I have also learned from these folks that the majority of them support Donald Trump.


Well I'm not a millenial, but I am educated and I don't support Trump. So where does that leave me in your pigeonholing of people who don't enjoy your posts?

And how can I look at the "majority of" or "1-2%" of your posts, when you constantly delete and/or edit them?


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Well I'm not a millenial, but I am educated and I don't support Trump. So where does that leave me in your pigeonholing of people who don't enjoy your posts?
> 
> And how can I look at the "majority of" or "1-2%" of your posts, when you constantly delete and/or edit them?


Readers, see here, read my post, and then read her response to my post. That, fully explains how this group largely responds to anything people say.

You: The great majority of these folks that I talked to say they support Trump.
FuzzyElvis/MichaelCleveland: You are pigeonholing this group.

A fourteen year old boy Michael needs to go meet up with his friends at McDonald's before heading to some friends' house nearby.
Michael: (to his sister FuzzyElvis) Tell mom I need her to drive me to MickeyD.
FuzzyElvis (yells): Mom, Michael says he is hungry!

Husband Michael about to leave the front door for a walk in the 'hood. Looks out and suddenly sees some small animals eating wife FuzzyElvis' flowers. Wants to use umbrella to scare them off. 
Michael: Quick, hand me that umbrella!
FuzzyElvis: What, is it raining already?

I have found that among people who want and like to learn about things, we like to talk about things, share information, pass info and insights around without any hidden agenda. But some people grow up in circles that, they talk to establish power, supremacy/superiority, position, to win! Learning is not their goal, winning is. For the latter, when they hear or read something, instead of analyzing or absorbing the info, they are engaged in a mental power-grabbing contest--why she/he says that? How am I going to fight back to avoid losing.

Look, it takes decades to form who we are. It is hard to change. You are set in your ways. Just avoid attacking me. Several other posters like you attacked me, but I ignored them, and they stopped. I have never started any negative comments. Until you and Michael continued to attack me even after I ignored the first several of your attacks. Even after that, I still treat every day as a new day forgetting about your past attacks, and only respond to your new attack on that day.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> yadda yadda yadda balh blah blah


Not a single word on the topic of '*Is it fair to talk about fare cuts without also talking about expense cuts?' *Not a single word on the subject of rideshare. Just 322 self-pitying words posted, taking up space in a thread, performed to what you appear to think is _your_ audience.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

I gave up on him.


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## Tequila Jake (Jan 28, 2016)

Another way to look at is the government index for auto costs for tax purposes (which theoretically includes fuel, insurance, maintenance, and depreciation). It's going from $0.575 per mile in 2015 to $0.56 per mile in 2016.

This reflects our costs from a business reporting perspective. While our costs decreased 1.5 cents per mile, fares went down 15 cents per mile -- 10x our cost decrease!

Also, effective March 1st in Arizona, we're required to have a rideshare endorsement on our auto insurance -- an additional expense of about $30/month.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Tequila Jake said:


> While our costs decreased 1.5 cents per mile, fares went down 15 cents per mile -- 10x our cost decrease!


Yes, indeed. But the question is: If we're are going to all talk about Fare changes which reduce earnings...
shouldn't we ALSO be talking about changes in Expenses?

Let me put it another way (which I probably should have done in the title of thre thread)...
You've one pocket for your money.
Your right hand receives the money coming in
and your left hand gives out the money to pay the bills.

Is it fair (ie: intellectually honest) to talk only about what the right hand is doing
without also talking about what the left hand is doing?

The majority of (well justified) responses to the OP have been to talk about how bad the fare cuts are - and how any expense savings there are do not make up the difference in the decraese in earnings per mile. I agree with all of that.
But I am also reminded of the goius who come out of the casino talking about how they won $800 but fial to mention how much they spent to win it. IMO, you can't just talk about one without also talking about the other. So, in that regard, I'm afraid my thread topic here was a 'fail'.


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## bezi_NY (Feb 28, 2015)

UberXTampa said:


> When the dust settles, the story will be the greatest wealth transfer in modern history. From those who need it to the elite 1%.
> There was an article in zero hedge about how the richest 62% now owns more than half of everything in the world. the trend continues and has been accelerating.


It's criminal what Uber is doing in New York. Uber is a transportation company in New York and they're the biggest scheme going since the sale of the Brooklyn bridge. I hope these asshole politicians on the dole wake the heck up to the scheme before its to late. Because when people loose everything! They loose it!


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## BiggestScamInHistory (Jan 19, 2016)

YoungMD243 said:


> It's funny how people complain about pay but I'm seeing stuff like this. $206 in 6 hours. Try finding a regular job that pays that much without the hassle. Yes, you do have to keep up with matienence on your car but still you're profiting after those expenses.


Another Uber shill. Is there any other job or business where you have NO CLUE when you will get paid enough to make it worth it??!! Heck no!!

It's only 6 hours because there's NO WAY he can find or have to chase after the 40 surge hours all time of day or night.

Many Uber riders make that much in 6 hours, but take advantage of desperate, poor, and ignorant people that are willing to donate their own property, time, and energy for A FRACTION of what it costs in reality. This is just serfdom coming back and type of class warfare the rich love to engage in. Use the poor and middle classes to do whatever they please, whenever, for whatever little price they want to get away with paying. Force them to compete with eachother, and kill their predecessors who actually were able to make a living doing this without HAVING TO WORK 40 HOURS A WEEK somewhere else to really survive.


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## BiggestScamInHistory (Jan 19, 2016)

YoungMD243 said:


> I've been only doing this for a week. I went to Philly on Tuesday and drove 5pm-10pm and made $128. I was lurking on the fourms way before I started driving and seeing these post didn't motivate me to go out on the road. Now that I can see how much I can make, I'm laughing at the post that scream "rates are too low!!!". I'm only doing this for part time work as I already have a job and go to school. If the rates are too low, go look for a regular job that pays you $12/hour with a boss.
> 
> EDIT: I believe the rates In Philly is $1+ a mile


Good Lord, the ignorance and total nonsense in this thread. Like a script from an Uber brand ambassador around the country.

If a taxi driver or any real driver only made $128 at the peak evening time they would call it a BAD night, but minimum wager here is esctatic. I doubt that's even after commission.

Don't just tell us how much you made total, that's misleading and deceptive. Tell us:

Total mileage you drove that night
Current value of your car & mileage
Depreciated value while you drove that night
How many tips did you get?
How much did you spend on gas?
On food or drink or other expenses?

THEN talk about how much you made AFTER all that's taken into account. Your car won't run forever problem free, & I really doubt you have a clue how much even basic maintenance work like brakes or transmission service or the like costs, much less other large repairs which will pop up 4-6 times sooner than with normal personal driving.

Who can blame Uber when people are this happy being this ignorant? A fool and his money (and everything else) were MEANT to part ways.


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## bezi_NY (Feb 28, 2015)

BiggestScamInHistory said:


> Another Uber shill. Is there any other job or business where you have NO CLUE when you will get paid enough to make it worth it??!! Heck no!!
> 
> It's only 6 hours because there's NO WAY he can find or have to chase after the 40 surge hours all time of day or night.
> 
> Many Uber riders make that much in 6 hours, but take advantage of desperate, poor, and ignorant people that are willing to donate their own property, time, and energy for A FRACTION of what it costs in reality. This is just serfdom coming back and type of class warfare the rich love to engage in. Use the poor and middle classes to do whatever they please, whenever, for whatever little price they want to get away with paying. Force them to compete with eachother, and kill their predecessors who actually were able to make a living doing this without HAVING TO WORK 40 HOURS A WEEK somewhere else to really survive.


What about the risk involved? From potential death/injury from an accident. To even being assaulted or held up and killed. Not even enough to replace the tool you need to continue earning a living.. Of the many reasons working for a cab company is a far better deal than the super-Über wannabe Walmart of transportation. They go as far as subsidizing drivers wages just so they can kill off the smaller competition. I just wonder exactly where all this funding is coming from to fuel this destructive machine? Working class pensions?


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## BiggestScamInHistory (Jan 19, 2016)

Never really thought of it like that (working class pensions being used directly against the working ckass), but it's absolutely right.

The godd*mn cowards running the investment firms and throwing money behind the scenes politically, it's how they operate. And when we see just how things really are done, it's maddening and scary in reality. The crimes that are allowed to continue against society, but are legislated not to be crimes by the very same perpetrators. I'll take petty criminals any day over this type.


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## tomabq (Jan 14, 2015)

BiggestScamInHistory said:


> Good Lord, the ignorance and total nonsense in this thread. Like a script from an Uber brand ambassador around the country.
> 
> If a taxi driver or any real driver only made $128 at the peak evening time they would call it a BAD night, but minimum wager here is esctatic. I doubt that's even after commission.
> 
> ...


Let's say he's right. That's $25.60 an hr. At today's rates that has to be before ubers cut. It is almost impossible to make $128 in 5 hrs unless you have big time surging, then you can chalk it up to a lucky night or there weren't many drivers which is highly unlikely. Every dog has it's day!


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

I don't believe any of these claims that are not accompanied by a screenshot of the claimed earnings. Anyone can say anything, and memories are unreliable, at best.

Show us the screenshot proof, along with a tally of the miles driven, from the time you left your house to go seek fares to the time you returned, and how many hours spent, not just the hours on app. And from that proof, we can then tell what you really made or lost.


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## bezi_NY (Feb 28, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> I don't believe any of these claims that are not accompanied by a screenshot of the claimed earnings. Anyone can say anything, and memories are unreliable, at best.
> 
> Show us the screenshot proof, along with a tally of the miles driven, from the time you left your house to go seek fares to the time you returned, and how many hours spent, not just the hours on app. And from that proof, we can then tell what you really made or lost.


Everything you say and if I may add the more miles you do the more likely a collision or a pothole. Something along those lines as an added expense.. And when and if it does you may also subtract lost earnings for those times and days.. Guys say, wow yea made 399 or a thousand today.. But over the course of the year and three what's it gonna average to? Professional fleet operators keep good records and have the data.. As do insurance companies that provide commercial insurance. And is why a vehicle in New York with a clean record pays 3300 to well 3800 just for liability. I guess that means you're about 6 times more likely to hit someone or something. (God forbid) but they know this.. And uber knows this.. And it's investors know this and that is why they all love that the big risk is on drivers...sorry, I mean partners!


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Yes, indeed. But the question is: If we're are going to all talk about Fare changes which reduce earnings...
> shouldn't we ALSO be talking about changes in Expenses?
> 
> Let me put it another way (which I probably should have done in the title of thre thread)...
> ...


I understood your point. But since it takes such a big change in gas prices to make up for the fare decreases (even free gas doesn't in most cases I would bet) at least for UberX only drivers, it's almost only an academic exercise to figure it out. (Which, if you'll recall, I did, and came to the conclusion that gas was a pretty negligible part of the equation for me).


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## bezi_NY (Feb 28, 2015)

It's heating up!!

https://m.facebook.com/events/1043913965666935?view=permalink&id=1045347188856946&_rdr


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## Redtop (Oct 20, 2015)

I'll just observe that a lot of businesses implement "fuel surcharges" and then never take them away. I think the major package carriers are still charging them even though fuel prices are at record lows. (And let's not even talk about airlines!)


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> COST OF GAS
> Cleveland, OH​
> July 2015 - $2.75/gal
> Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
> ...





Michael - Cleveland said:


> COST OF GAS
> Cleveland, OH​
> July 2015 - $2.75/gal
> Jan 2016 - $1.59/gal (or lower)
> ...


you're question is stupid. I own semi truck and lease it on with coke. My $1.75 a mile has not changed at all. My fuel surcharge rate went down 20cents.you uber drivers do not get a fuel surcharge, I mean you don't even get minimum wage lol. You're cpm should not change,just the fuel surcharge should. If goober were a normal transportation company you would be paid loaded,dead head miles and fuel surcharge.most taxi companies have all three figured into its price,but not goobers greedy ass. Oh did i mention I get $1.75 mile plus $.38cpm. Plus I still get to claim all expenses on taxes. You my friend are comparing Apple's and oranges and a apologist for the new world order/UBER lol


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hotep31 said:


> you're question is stupid. I own semi truck and lease it on with coke. My $1.75 a mile has not changed at all. My fuel surcharge rate went down 20cents.you uber drivers do not get a fuel surcharge, I mean you don't even get minimum wage lol. You're cpm should not change,just the fuel surcharge should. If goober were a normal transportation company you would be paid loaded,dead head miles and fuel surcharge.most taxi companies have all three figured into its price,but not goobers greedy ass. Oh did i mention I get $1.75 mile plus $.38cpm. Plus I still get to claim all expenses on taxes. You my friend are comparing Apple's and oranges and a apologist for the new world order/UBER lol


I've no idea what makes you think anyone here would give a rat's ass what your situation is. It's irrelevant and off-topic to those who drive rideshare: you don't do what we do - and we don't do what you do. The Question posted isn't stupid, it's on point: Many rideshare drivers look only at the 'fares' without understanding either earnings, expenses or profits.


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I've no idea what makes you think anyone here would give a rat's ass what your situation is. It's irrelevant and off-topic to those who drive rideshare: you don't do what we do - and we don't do what you do. The Question posted isn't stupid, it's on point: Many rideshare drivers look only at the 'fares' without understanding either earnings, expenses or profits.


 no it is not off topic was clown. No matter how you look at it,you are a transporter,you are transporting people from one point to another. Uber is not a rideshare like they claim. I love uber I get cheap rides from morons like you,who some how think it's profitable at $.60-$1.20 a mile.I transport goods from one pony to another just like you. It's not my fault you are barely getting by lol. If anything I was pointing out how you "rideshare" folks are getting screwed.


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