# Is There Racism in Lyft's Algorithm



## Drivingforprofit (Jan 14, 2017)

I have up front asked Lyft this question. I offer as evidence the screenshot attached below. As most drivers, I study the map for times and locations that generate the highest demand. I've gotten up early enough to be ahead of traffic so that I could position myself right in the center of an active earning zone. The first or second request usually takes me out of an active zone, into a dead zone every single time I am online. I wrote to them today requesting no more airport rides period! I was in a sweet spot in Berkeley, do I have to tell you what happened? I got a "scheduled pick up," to Oakland International Airport, a dead zone, and with heavy traffic, its impossible to get back to the surge in time. Someone hates me at Lyft.


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## Jagent (Jan 29, 2017)

Lyft sucks. No matter where I'm at, I always get pinged to pick up a pax that's 15 miles away. I gave up on it.


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## leroy jenkins (May 27, 2015)

Algorithms aren't racist. Programmers can be. Drivers who avoid certain areas therefore causing surge in that area can be (due to imbalanced demand/supply).

but NO one on the Lyft platform is racist. something on the news said so. 

me. I'm a fan of the belief that cash rules everything around me. C.R.E.A.M. get the money. regardless of the color of the hand that's giving it to me.


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## Drivingforprofit (Jan 14, 2017)

Makes no ****ing sense


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## cenTiPede (Dec 5, 2016)

Are you mixing up the words racism and discrimination? Or do you think that there is a part of the code that makes decisions based on your race?


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## Drivingforprofit (Jan 14, 2017)

cenTiPede said:


> Are you mixing up the words racism and discrimination? Or do you think that there is a part of the code that makes decisions based on your race?


Im far from stupid, I wrote what I meant. Did you see the screenshot? Thats everyday. It's no accident!


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## jothopo (Jan 21, 2017)

Drivingforprofit said:


> I have up front asked Lyft this question. I offer as evidence the screenshot attached below. As most drivers, I study the map for times and locations that generate the highest demand. I've gotten up early enough to be ahead of traffic so that I could position myself right in the center of an active earning zone. The first or second request usually takes me out of an active zone, into a dead zone every single time I am online. I wrote to them today requesting no more airport rides period! I was in a sweet spot in Berkeley, do I have to tell you what happened? I got a "scheduled pick up," to Oakland International Airport, a dead zone, and with heavy traffic, its impossible to get back to the surge in time. Someone hates me at Lyft.


duh, everything is racist, you didn't know that?


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## drivininsac (Jan 20, 2017)

Drivingforprofit said:


> Im far from stupid, I wrote what I meant. Did you see the screenshot? Thats everyday. It's no accident!


So it's now racist that people in Oakland want rides more? I am not seeing the correlation between race and where people want rides...


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## Drivingforprofit (Jan 14, 2017)

drivininsac said:


> So it's now racist that people in Oakland want rides more? I am not seeing the correlation between race and where people want rides...


It's not meant for you to see then.


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## Drivingforprofit (Jan 14, 2017)

drivininsac said:


> So it's now racist that people in Oakland want rides more? I am not seeing the correlation between race and where people want rides...


Your comments are very revealing, I'm convinced you enjoy a different experience than I do. Look at the screenshot I provided. If I were to take a screenshot of my daily; it looks just like that no matter what I do.


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## Luber4.9 (Nov 25, 2015)

Lyft scheduled rides have Prime Time, but your request was outside of it, which stinks.


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## cenTiPede (Dec 5, 2016)

Drivingforprofit said:


> Im far from stupid, I wrote what I meant. Did you see the screenshot? Thats everyday. It's no accident!


You may far from stupid, but you're not too far from paranoid if you think they wrote a racist code.


> Wait, there are too many minorities around this customer, let's make them wait while we get a white guy from across town!


Look, institutionalized racism is real. But you're not going to find it written down (or coded) anywhere because racists are cowards and cowards are afraid of being caught. So they hide behind verbal communication.

The most I could see Lyft doing is to give special guarantees to some of their preferred "employees" and it may just happen that their preferred "employees" are all white. But not all white "employees" are going to get special stuff while the minorities scruff for the crumbles. That would make them too vulnerable to lawsuits, not to mention a detriment to their service.

I'm sure if you look around, a large number of Lyft drivers in every big city is from a minority group. Black, Brown, Yellow, Red or Green (some people have olive skin, ok). So if they had to automatically pick the best rides for the whites only, their customers and consequently their business will suffer.

I'm not arguing that it doesn't make sense for you to feel that you're getting screwed. I feel that way everyday at some point, but then another point comes in that makes me feel lucky. From what I read over here, the feeling of getting screwed is generalized. My feeling is that their system is barely making it day after day and the software errors keep popping all day long.

From the little I understand about software, their servers are being used to the max just to be able to pair riders and drivers in real time. Adding another decision making layer will just cost them more money to run the system. Remember, money is number one, even to racists.

I'm sure you have plenty of experience with racist people discriminating against you. But don't let that affect your sanity. Don't be looking for ghosts in the shadows because it will drive you insane. Wait for them to reveal themselves in the light, they can't hide forever.

Next time you feel slighted by the software, hit cancel. It's still your own decision to drive there or not.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

Drivingforprofit said:


> I have up front asked Lyft this question. I offer as evidence the screenshot attached below. As most drivers, I study the map for times and locations that generate the highest demand. I've gotten up early enough to be ahead of traffic so that I could position myself right in the center of an active earning zone. The first or second request usually takes me out of an active zone, into a dead zone every single time I am online. I wrote to them today requesting no more airport rides period! I was in a sweet spot in Berkeley, do I have to tell you what happened? I got a "scheduled pick up," to Oakland International Airport, a dead zone, and with heavy traffic, its impossible to get back to the surge in time. Someone hates me at Lyft.


Probably.


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## drivininsac (Jan 20, 2017)

cenTiPede said:


> You may far from stupid, but you're not too far from paranoid if you think they wrote a racist code.
> 
> Look, institutionalized racism is real. But you're not going to find it written down (or coded) anywhere because racists are cowards and cowards are afraid of being caught. So they hide behind verbal communication.
> 
> ...


I think what the OP was trying to imply was that because Oakland, CA has a large minority population the PrimeTime rates seem to always be occuring there. When I attempted to explain that the algorithm was not racist because more people requesting more rides makes the PT rate soar I was told my comments were "very revealing." And that I "enjoy a different experience" than the OP.

Yeah, I have a different experience....I don't always have a PT pool I can sit in.


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## cenTiPede (Dec 5, 2016)

drivininsac said:


> I think what the OP was trying to imply was that because Oakland, CA has a large minority population the PrimeTime rates seem to always be occuring there.


If that was the case, then it's a case of discrimination (not necessarily racism) by the Lyft drivers for not wanting to hang around some areas in Oakland.

From what I noticed, the pink squares appear when there are less than 8 drivers within 4-5 minutes of an area. There is such a zone here in LA that is pink 90% of the time. At first I thought it was like the lonely grocery store that charges more on the hood than everywhere else. But then I realized that like me, other drivers where avoiding the area and that by itself created the prolonged pink area. For the record, I'm an equal opportunity discriminater regarding what areas I don't like to hang around. I avoid both rich, poor and drunk areas for different reasons.

But I thought his complaint was about Lyft constantly taking him away from the pink area, which happens to me and others around here on a daily basis. I got a video that's mind boggling, where I'm in the middle of 3 square miles of red zone, and they ping me twice within a minute to go to another city 15 and 18 minutes away from where I was. I just can't figure out how to block the rider's names on the video, but if I do I'll post it.


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## Drivingforprofit (Jan 14, 2017)

cenTiPede said:


> You may far from stupid, but you're not too far from paranoid if you think they wrote a racist code.
> 
> Look, institutionalized racism is real. But you're not going to find it written down (or coded) anywhere because racists are cowards and cowards are afraid of being caught. So they hide behind verbal communication.
> 
> ...


Some of what you have said here makes sense; but no one can persuade me that I am "paranoid," or conjuring "ghosts," or misidentifying what I legitimately experience every single day. The other day I lucked up into a dark red zone; and the algorithm freaked out! Omg lets get him outta there and in comes requests 20 to 25 minutes away. Either I have the worst luck ever on Lyft's platform; or there is undeniable racism coded in their platform.


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## Mizzieman (Dec 8, 2016)

I think op is the racist because he thinks others are racist.


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## Drivingforprofit (Jan 14, 2017)

Mizzieman said:


> I think op is the racist because he thinks others are racist.


Go research Jim Crow and try again.


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## Bhindblueeyes (Jan 18, 2017)

What happened is you got the ping that other drivers didn't want. They let it timeout and it went to you. I am white, happens to me too.


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## The Mollusk (Feb 13, 2016)

It's downright folly to think an algorithm is racist. If anything , it should show you that things you thought were racist were not.


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## MSUGrad9902 (Jun 8, 2016)

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you're not getting pings from the pink square zone because you are a different ethnicity than what is preferred by Lyft or are you saying that they are overcharging people in the pink zones because of their ethnicity?


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## Stan07 (Oct 10, 2016)

Drivingforprofit said:


> The first or second request usually takes me out of an active zone, into a dead zone every single time I am online.


 This is very common practice that Lyft has been using in order to manipulate its drivers.

Your Mission: Drive in the Guarantee Zone
Our Mission: Get you out of the Guarantee Zone


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## Greenie (Jan 26, 2016)

If you know anything about Oakland and Berkeley, that area of the map is known as Adam's Point and downtown Oakland which is the area of Oakland with THE MOST DENSE population due to the area having predominately condos and apartment where most people living there do not have cars due to lack of parking space available. It's the same story in the downtown and UC Berkeley area so I'm sorry to bust your bubble but there's no racism, just plain old supply and demand. BTW, if I'm ever in the pink area, I can tell you I ALWAY get a ping from there. Learn how to work the system and you'll be a lot happier and successful.


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## MSUGrad9902 (Jun 8, 2016)

Generally with Lyft if I'm in the pink zones I'll get a ping (on an undisclosed prime time rate) that is 30 minutes away. At that point I turn off Lyft.


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## Drivingforprofit (Jan 14, 2017)

MSUGrad9902 said:


> I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you're not getting pings from the pink square zone because you are a different ethnicity than what is preferred by Lyft or are you saying that they are overcharging people in the pink zones because of their ethnicity?


Forget about it!


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## Tazyboy28 (Nov 24, 2016)

Bhindblueeyes said:


> What happened is you got the ping that other drivers didn't want. They let it timeout and it went to you. I am white, happens to me too.


What he said... it happens to me too and im black. I get all the way to DC and i get oings coming from virginia 15 to 18 minutes away because.... and get this: no one wants to pick up in certain areas. So the ping keeps bouncing around until it reaches you. I avoid south east DC. And near the monuments because i know what kind of passengers i will get. And i know where the ride will 9 times out of 10 take me. Out of the boost zone or surge zone so i can pick up another boost passenger or to an area tbat i have to drive dead miles to get back to the boost zone. You either have two choices. Accept the ride then cancel or let it ping out. Then the next few ones will be in the area you are. Its like a que you sit in line according to when yiu get there then they pass out rides as the come to you. Or whether you are closer. Whichever comes first.


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## Bhindblueeyes (Jan 18, 2017)

Tazyboy28 said:


> What he said... it happens to me too and im black. I get all the way to DC and i get oings coming from virginia 15 to 18 minutes away because.... and get this: no one wants to pick up in certain areas. So the ping keeps bouncing around until it reaches you. I avoid south east DC. And near the monuments because i know what kind of passengers i will get. And i know where the ride will 9 times out of 10 take me. Out of the boost zone or surge zone so i can pick up another boost passenger or to an area tbat i have to drive dead miles to get back to the boost zone. You either have two choices. Accept the ride then cancel or let it ping out. Then the next few ones will be in the area you are. Its like a que you sit in line according to when yiu get there then they pass out rides as the come to you. Or whether you are closer. Whichever comes first.


People ultimately are just trying to get a ping that is located in that PT zone. All of the drivers let pings timeout every once in a while. I let pings timeout all the time, and I also get the ones that mysteriously are located outside of the action, and I get all nationalities of people in all different parts of town.


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## kcdrvr15 (Jan 10, 2017)

Everything the app does is based of an automated, computer program the runs different sub routines for different tasks assigned. There is no human of any color sitting somewhere watching what your doing and interceding to punish or favor one driver over another. They hire the programmers from third world countries, like India, through contract employment companies like infosys and tata, these programmers are not very good, their educational qualifications are marginal and unverifiable. They couldn't write "racist code" if their lives depended on it. The problems you experience are real, but it's just the way the demand in real-time is. Now, yes they have enough data from the last several years to develop algorithms that could improve our experience as drivers, but there's no money in it so they will not spend the cost in man hours to do so. You, me and the rest of the drivers of these companies ( uber and lyft ) are way easy to replace and they are planning on dumping us from their app as soon as they get the self driven vehicles on the road.


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## Bhindblueeyes (Jan 18, 2017)

This question has been answered about as good as it gets.


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## flexian (Aug 16, 2016)

these companies improve the riders experience...at all cost...not the drivers

so itll be different depending on the riders


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## Drivingforprofit (Jan 14, 2017)

kcdrvr15 said:


> Everything the app does is based of an automated, computer program the runs different sub routines for different tasks assigned. There is no human of any color sitting somewhere watching what your doing and interceding to punish or favor one driver over another. They hire the programmers from third world countries, like India, through contract employment companies like infosys and tata, these programmers are not very good, their educational qualifications are marginal and unverifiable. They couldn't write "racist code" if their lives depended on it. The problems you experience are real, but it's just the way the demand in real-time is. Now, yes they have enough data from the last several years to develop algorithms that could improve our experience as drivers, but there's no money in it so they will not spend the cost in man hours to do so. You, me and the rest of the drivers of these companies ( uber and lyft ) are way easy to replace and they are planning on dumping us from their app as soon as they get the self driven vehicles on the road.


This was a thoughtful, well-written reply and thank you; but the colossal/grave error you make is to put anything pass them. As you correctly observed: "the problems you experience are real," too real to be exact. I am already making concrete steps to get out, I went months and months of going through this. I don't put this beyond em; Jim Crow baby!


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## luvgurl22 (Jul 5, 2016)

Drivingforprofit said:


> I have up front asked Lyft this question. I offer as evidence the screenshot attached below. As most drivers, I study the map for times and locations that generate the highest demand. I've gotten up early enough to be ahead of traffic so that I could position myself right in the center of an active earning zone. The first or second request usually takes me out of an active zone, into a dead zone every single time I am online. I wrote to them today requesting no more airport rides period! I was in a sweet spot in Berkeley, do I have to tell you what happened? I got a "scheduled pick up," to Oakland International Airport, a dead zone, and with heavy traffic, its impossible to get back to the surge in time. Someone hates me at Lyft.


I think you are over thinking and overreaching.Next time you don't want to take a ride or as you put it, "leave an active zone", turn your phone on airplane mode until they cancel (pax's are usually impatient so the will).Thats what I do if I'm don't want to take certain rides and maintain my acceptance rating.


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## Drivingforprofit (Jan 14, 2017)

I think that you are n


luvgurl22 said:


> I think you are over thinking and overreaching.Next time you don't want to take a ride or as you put it, "leave an active zone", turn your phone on airplane mode until they cancel (pax's are usually impatient so the will).Thats what I do if I'm don't want to take certain rides and maintain my acceptance rating.


 I think that you are naive and inexperienced based upon your comments. Have you ever worked in corporate? If so, then you know how cutthroat and petty certain people can be; if not goodnight. No one can invalidate my direct exposure and experience with this. I don't sense any feeling of driver cherry picking with Uber; of course they have a bigger database. Your advice about going into airplane mode is silly; how do I know if I want a ride if I cant see pax's destination?


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## Lyle (Nov 11, 2015)

Decide for yourself,

https://www.yahoo.com/news/algorithms-secretly-run-world-061905775.html

_Lyle_,


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## luvgurl22 (Jul 5, 2016)

Drivingforprofit said:


> I think that you are n
> I think that you are naive and inexperienced based upon your comments. Have you ever worked in corporate? If so, then you know how cutthroat and petty certain people can be; if not goodnight. No one can invalidate my direct exposure and experience with this. I don't sense any feeling of driver cherry picking with Uber; of course they have a bigger database. Your advice about going into airplane mode is silly; how do I know if I want a ride if I cant see pax's destination?


You


Drivingforprofit said:


> I think that you are n
> I think that you are naive and inexperienced based upon your comments. Have you ever worked in corporate? If so, then you know how cutthroat and petty certain people can be; if not goodnight. No one can invalidate my direct exposure and experience with this. I don't sense any feeling of driver cherry picking with Uber; of course they have a bigger database. Your advice about going into airplane mode is silly; how do I know if I want a ride if I cant see pax's destination?


pls don't insult me because I was trying to help you.Once you arrive at the destination and hit "arrive" you can decide if you want the ride or not because most likely the pax, who are notorious for not being at the pick up spot when drivers get there will most likely not be there. At that point you can view there destination and stay/leave, but airplane mode makes it look as if it's the system/network that's faulty.Pax usually cancel because they hate to wait.Also you could just call ahead like some drivers do.I use the airplane mode thing that I learned from pros and it has always worked for me.Since you know everything don't ask for advice because it's obvious you've been very successful doing things your way


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Drivingforprofit said:


> It's not meant for you to see then.


So I guess you enjoy preaching the choir since you do not intend to educate anyone who may be ignorant or on the fence. I personally am not from your region, so I have no idea why you think the map is racist. Or perhaps you are not saying the map is racist but showing that it shows pink and you are complaining you never get anything in the pink. But you don't want to explain yourself.

It seems like lots of people just say things are racist without explanation.

I'd ask how the algorithms are racist.

Are they racist because the primetime is only in the areas where whites reside starving the racial minorities of rides? Are they racist because the primetime is only where racial minorities are, driving up the prices? Are they racist because you are a driver that does not identify as white and you think it is singling you out for getting cheap fares and not getting hits in the pink zone?

Or perhaps are they racist because they apply the rules equally regardless of the racial makeup of the area, instead of providing subsidized reduced price fares to areas that have more non-whites? Are they racist because they do not preferentially give higher fares rides to non-white drivers?

It seems like in the past it used to be racist to not offer equal conditions to non-whites, whereas these days the only way to not be racist is to give preferential treatment (affirmative action) to racial minorities, to compensate for transgressions by whites and any corresponding statistical economic disadvantages imbued upon racial minorities as a result of these transgressions. I'm not saying affirmative action is good or bad, I'm just saying that it is makes no sense to just post a map and say someone at Lyft hates you then expect everyone to understand where you are coming from and see racism with zero explanation, and to assume everyone who cannot automatically come to your conclusion upon seeing the map must be a white supremacist.

Do you think the algorithms are racist for taking the race of people into account, or failure to take race of people into account? How can the algorithms be improved? Can the algorithms be improved, or will the algorithms be racist no matter how they are written? Does the city that the algorithms are used in make a difference? For instance, are these algorithms racist if applied in Oakland but the same algorithms are not racist in London due to the differences in racial makeup/history of the two cities? Is the very nature of rideshare itself racist based on car owning demographic statistics?

I suppose there will be no answer given. People just want to scream about how they are discriminated against and don't want to actually put forth any evidence or allow their situation to be analyzed from a logical level. It seems that you are too unwilling to describe exactly what it is that is racist, let alone to propose any method to improve the situation. Which leads me to believe the case must be weak if you are afraid to subject your case to analysis. The biggest indication that something will be labeled as racist these days, is that someone finds complaint with it for any reason. Which is why it seems that everything is labeled as racist.

Perhaps as a driver you are not proficient with strategy, or the system is equally challenging for all drivers, but rather than improve your skills or consider that no one has it easy, you want to blame other people for rigging the system against you.

I suppose I'm automatically a racist for not automatically finding Lyft racist based on a mere anonymous accusation from a person who refuses to provide any rationale for his accusation or reasoning that could be used to make things more fair. You have merely provided an unexplained map and that you got a cheap fare. You know you can decline trips if they are outside of the hot zones, right?

In my city with Uber in the past the city has been orange for hours and I've only got non-surge rides from outside the surge zone. Now I get more surge rides... how you might ask? By not accepting every ride that comes in.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Bhindblueeyes said:


> This question has been answered about as good as it gets.


By that, it seems you mean, that you got unexpected responses of confusion rather than unilateral agreement.


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