# The Old Bait and Switch Game. Every NEW Driver Needs to Watch This!



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

This is an awesome overview called 'Nailed It!'


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## Rockwall (Oct 10, 2014)

This video sums it up. Lets see what Uber Cartel will try to do to her...


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## DjTim (Oct 18, 2014)

So here are some things that I noticed:

The sample fare can't be "apples to apples". It shows $14 for Chicago. Sure, the cab is going to be more then Uber. The cab is currently paying more in city and state taxes, and possibly a fee for the airport or whatever. I want to see a base fare without any of the regulatory costs and then show ubers take, and then that cab companies take and see where the "apples to apples". This reminds me of the "gas per gallon" comparison. The reason why gas prices are so high in Chicago - it's the city and county tax. I'm in lake county and the price per gallon is anywhere from 20 to 50 cents cheaper.
She's incorrect about the star rating (sort of). We all know we can't be rated if we don't accept the ride. 
I agree with "you can't make a family salary" we already know this. 
The "safety" fee is going to be charged by most rideshare companies.
I already stated my thoughts on background checks - people are always missed. It's going to happen in any industry.
The insurance thing, yep big 800 lb gorilla in the corner.
I couldn't find anything about the "sub prime" DOJ investigation. Give me some details and don't just throw shit around.
Yes there was that cancellation crap that happened months ago. Whatever.
We know that this is going to be political - the entire transportation industry is political.

It wasn't a bad video - quite long but it covered some good topics.


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

If Uber keeps this up it will eventually backfire on them. Sure right now they can afford to lose drivers because more and more keep signing on. But that is going to slow down once the drivers realize they're making below minimum wage.

Uber has a great business model. If they get off their high horses and play by the rules they have a much better chance of surviving on the long run.

Whether they care or not, they still need drivers as well as consumers of course. One driver quitting won't make them flinch but thousands and more that's a different story altogether.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

DjTim said:


> So here are some things that I noticed:
> 
> The sample fare can't be "apples to apples". It shows $14 for Chicago. Sure, the cab is going to be more then Uber. The cab is currently paying more in city and state taxes, and possibly a fee for the airport or whatever. I want to see a base fare without any of the regulatory costs and then show ubers take, and then that cab companies take and see where the "apples to apples". This reminds me of the "gas per gallon" comparison. The reason why gas prices are so high in Chicago - it's the city and county tax. I'm in lake county and the price per gallon is anywhere from 20 to 50 cents cheaper.
> She's incorrect about the star rating (sort of). We all know we can't be rated if we don't accept the ride.
> ...


yeah and Uber now says they cover from moment the app is on correct? She said Uber wont pay if you're in route to a pax. At least Uber has not stated they will pay for that type of occurence right?


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Lidman said:


> If Uber keeps this up it will eventually backfire on them. Sure right now they can afford to lose drivers because more and more keep signing on. But that is going to slow down once the drivers realize they're making below minimum wage.
> .


National minimum wage is what..... $7.25/hr? So if i work an 8 hour shift, and actually have people to take places, you're saying the average uber person that actually does trips makes around $5/hour or something?


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

I don't know about $5, I am just going by what I've been told by others. Also factoring in the gas expense, insurance, taxes, wear and tear on the car, 1.15 per mile, $10/wk fee, etc. It's very possible. I'm sure some still make above minimum wage, but I've seen others report they've made far less due to the fare cuts, more and more drivers and so on.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Lidman said:


> I don't know about $5, I am just going by what I've been told by others. Also factoring in the gas expense, insurance, taxes, wear and tear on the car, 1.15 per mile, $10/wk fee, etc. It's very possible. I'm sure some still make above minimum wage, but I've seen others report they've made far less due to the fare cuts, more and more drivers and so on.


Well im thinking minimum wage is.....mininum wage. And $7.25 could be made on 1 trip, if only 1 trip an hour correct?

Now say you worked from 10am-2pm, but you didnt pick up any passengers. Now of course you made $0/hr but its not like you drove people around for $0 either. So im trying to figure out if this is sitting around factored in, or are people actually doing trips and making less than minimum wage


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## DjTim (Oct 18, 2014)

Lidman said:


> Uber has a great business model. If they get off their high horses and play by the rules they have a much better chance of surviving on the long run.


Honestly - Uber is out to kill its competition and Lyft is out to kill it competition. Unfortunately drivers and riders are left in the wake of that fight. The model on how to kill innovation and kill competitors in the tech sector - lower your prices to the point where your competitors can't compete. This model works great for cell phones, computers, tablets, servers, networking gear - hardware in general. It doesn't work so well in in the "service" industry unless you are providing salaries and your paying individuals based on their capabilities verses based on an extension of your service.

Let's look at McDonalds. They can price their double cheeseburger at 50 cents. That could/would put pressure on Wendys to drop their Double Stack to 50 cents. This doesn't effect their workers because they are paid the same per hour before and after a promo. In fact it would possibly cause the restaurants to staff up to accommodate the influx of new customers, causing other people to make more money. We don't see that because we aren't compensated per hour but per ride and a reduction in fares only causes us to work more hours for the same, because you can only fill your car up so much....


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## 556baller (Sep 8, 2014)

Damn...


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## pUber_driver (Nov 2, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> This is an awesome overview called 'Nailed It!'


Gaaaa

This Travis mother ****er belongs in jail. Subprime predatory lending, wow


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## Woober (Oct 12, 2014)

Good video. Lots of good material there. Her hand movements are a bit extreme though. (Am I being shallow?)


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

DjTim said:


> Honestly - Uber is out to kill its competition and Lyft is out to kill it competition. Unfortunately drivers and riders are left in the wake of that fight. The model on how to kill innovation and kill competitors in the tech sector - lower your prices to the point where your competitors can't compete. This model works great for cell phones, computers, tablets, servers, networking gear - hardware in general. It doesn't work so well in in the "service" industry unless you are providing salaries and your paying individuals based on their capabilities verses based on an extension of your service.
> 
> Let's look at McDonalds. They can price their double cheeseburger at 50 cents. That could/would put pressure on Wendys to drop their Double Stack to 50 cents. This doesn't effect their workers because they are paid the same per hour before and after a promo. In fact it would possibly cause the restaurants to staff up to accommodate the influx of new customers, causing other people to make more money. We don't see that because we aren't compensated per hour but per ride and a reduction in fares only causes us to work more hours for the same, because you can only fill your car up so much....


I agree to a point, but keep in mind, Wendy's would expect existing workers to be more productive long before they would hire more staff. You always want to maximize existing resources before adding more labor expenses. In Uber's case, a resource is merely a driver account. Low cost to duplicate.


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

DjTim said:


> Honestly - Uber is out to kill its competition and Lyft is out to kill it competition. Unfortunately drivers and riders are left in the wake of that fight. The model on how to kill innovation and kill competitors in the tech sector - lower your prices to the point where your competitors can't compete. This model works great for cell phones, computers, tablets, servers, networking gear - hardware in general. It doesn't work so well in in the "service" industry unless you are providing salaries and your paying individuals based on their capabilities verses based on an extension of your service.
> 
> Let's look at McDonalds. They can price their double cheeseburger at 50 cents. That could/would put pressure on Wendys to drop their Double Stack to 50 cents. This doesn't effect their workers because they are paid the same per hour before and after a promo. In fact it would possibly cause the restaurants to staff up to accommodate the influx of new customers, causing other people to make more money. We don't see that because we aren't compensated per hour but per ride and a reduction in fares only causes us to work more hours for the same, because you can only fill your car up so much....


 I couldn't agree more. I have yet to sign up because of some of the things you've mentioned above. I still have my other cab job. I realize uber and co only care about the bottom line. If they show more flexibility for the drivers I might join, if not I have no problem with that either. I just wont sign on. And of course you get those type of forum member who dole out pointless tautologies .like (uber doesn't care about you and bleh bleh), like I don't know that already. Anyways thanks for the input.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite (Nov 11, 2014)

Rockwall said:


> This video sums it up. Lets see what Uber Cartel will try to do to her...


She needs to apply to the witness protection program, ASAP.


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

Rockwall said:


> This video sums it up. Lets see what Uber Cartel will try to do to her...


 She might get sent to the Russian front.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

DjTim said:


> So here are some things that I noticed:
> 
> The sample fare can't be "apples to apples". It shows $14 for Chicago. Sure, the cab is going to be more then Uber. The cab is currently paying more in city and state taxes, and possibly a fee for the airport or whatever. I want to see a base fare without any of the regulatory costs and then show ubers take, and then that cab companies take and see where the "apples to apples". This reminds me of the "gas per gallon" comparison. The reason why gas prices are so high in Chicago - it's the city and county tax. I'm in lake county and the price per gallon is anywhere from 20 to 50 cents cheaper.
> She's incorrect about the star rating (sort of). We all know we can't be rated if we don't accept the ride.
> ...


http://m.bizjournals.com/washington...-vehicle-financing-partners-under.html?r=full


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Lidman said:


> If Uber keeps this up it will eventually backfire on them. Sure right now they can afford to lose drivers because more and more keep signing on. But that is going to slow down once the drivers realize they're making below minimum wage.
> 
> Uber has a great business model. If they get off their high horses and play by the rules they have a much better chance of surviving on the long run.
> 
> Whether they care or not, they still need drivers as well as consumers of course. One driver quitting won't make them flinch but thousands and more that's a different story altogether.


I don't agree that their Business model is a great one. If they lose the employment classification case, they are done. Likewise (probably) if most states require full "app-on" coverage.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite (Nov 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> I don't agree that their Business model is a great one. If they lose the employment classification case, they are done. Likewise (probably) if most states require full "app-on" coverage.


Employment classification is the stake that we shall stab into the monster's vile heart.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

DRIVERSOFTHEWORLDUNITE said:


> Employment classification is the stake that we shall stab into the monster's vile heart.


If they win, it will be a stake in the heart of many employees in this country, if they lose, it will be a stake in the heart of many other 1099-based companies. This will be where the bullet hits the bone!


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

DjTim said:


> So here are some things that I noticed:
> 
> The sample fare can't be "apples to apples". It shows $14 for Chicago. Sure, the cab is going to be more then Uber. The cab is currently paying more in city and state taxes, and possibly a fee for the airport or whatever. I want to see a base fare without any of the regulatory costs and then show ubers take, and then that cab companies take and see where the "apples to apples". This reminds me of the "gas per gallon" comparison. The reason why gas prices are so high in Chicago - it's the city and county tax. I'm in lake county and the price per gallon is anywhere from 20 to 50 cents cheaper.
> She's incorrect about the star rating (sort of). We all know we can't be rated if we don't accept the ride...


Keep in mind, whether something happened months ago or not, does not mean the average public is aware of it. She's an outsider who put together a pretty good summary of the issues that drivers and riders face with Uber (to date - current and old).

The fares are pretty close to a recent survey done and mentioned on this forum: https://uberpeople.net/threads/uber...as-where-does-your-city-rank.6320/#post-76037

I don't think she is incorrect about the star rating, using the example of the driver declining the 6 people - she doesn't say whether the requester still drove with some of her friends while the others took another Uber or cab. That does happen when you tell them _"No, 4 people is the max"_ etc. She just says as a result, they give him a low rating. That is one very possible scenario and shows how they take it out on the driver and do not consider the liabilities the driver must take into consideration for both the driver and passengers' sake.

Her points are spot on and she did a damn good job of summing up many of the biggest concerns.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

DRIVERSOFTHEWORLDUNITE said:


> Employment classification is the stake that we shall stab into the monster's vile heart.


Uber or Lyft should realize that they are mutually beneficial to each others by having drivers drive for both thereby keeping their independent contractor proof by working for multiple parties.

The independent contractor system is well ensconced in the U.S. system. It is unlikely to be broken by anyone but the IRS.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> If they win, it will be a stake in the heart of many employees in this country, if they lose, it will be a stake in the heart of many other 1099-based companies. This will be where the bullet hits the bone!


Ain't gonna happen.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite (Nov 11, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Uber or Lyft should realize that they are mutually beneficial to each others by having drivers drive for both thereby keeping their independent contractor proof by working for multiple parties.
> 
> The independent contractor system is well ensconced in the U.S. system. It is unlikely to be broken by anyone but the IRS.


McDonald's has already lost a lawsuit where the judge decreed that people working for McDonald's franchises are employees of McDonald's (unbelievably, yes, this had to be confirmed by a judge). The same thing could easily happen to Uber, especially with all the evidence coming forth that Uber is telling its "independent" contractors what to do.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

DRIVERSOFTHEWORLDUNITE said:


> McDonald's has already lost a lawsuit where the judge decreed that people working for McDonald's franchises are employees of McDonald's (unbelievably, yes, this had to be confirmed by a judge). The same thing could easily happen to Uber, especially with all the evidence coming forth that Uber is telling its "independent" contractors what to do.


Yes, I understand that there are several weaknesses in the arena of independent contractor status. But I also spent decades in the construction biz and saw the structure rip the hearts out of the common workforce. I know it inside and out.

The notion that Uber or Lyft will be cracked at that place is probably not workable. The independent contractor status has been used to manipulate the underpaid and underpriveledged here for decades now. It's not going away. And it came about PRIMARILY because of big .corp pile on's into the space of insurance and workers manipulating the work comp system. It deserved to die a proper death in many instances. Big .corp and big inefficiencies in the system are what caused the demise.

I'll share a little story about workers comp in relationship to employees. I worked in a rural area. One of my employees (at the time) got kicked by a cow and it broke his leg. His brother drove into town right after the accident and asked me if I would report his injury on work comp. The system was so lax then it probably would have worked. But oh hell no! Insurance fraud? Kiss my ass. Fired. Neither of them ever worked for me again. Freakin' crooks!

Where there is any system unfortunately government BLOAT, attorney's and manipulation eventually ruin the entire damn thing. It's just a fact and a well known fact.

Under the independent contractor arrangement there are TIMES when workers time is paid above and beyond the norm and there are times when it is below and those 2 quotients constantly fluctuate. Think Uber surge and Uber min. fare. It's about as good a picture as there is. In construction when things are tight, those guys work for damn near nothing just to keep bread on the table. But as the season fluctuates they get paid more or contractors will pay the better guys more just to have them and to run more productively.

I am definitely PRO independent contractor because I've dealt with the sorry excuses for systems we have on the other end.

NO! Big dotGov is NOT going to take care of workers. Leeches suck the system dry in every case and the government gets stuck in the dead bureaucracy zone. In the end it does workers little if any good because *employers just can't afford to keep them.*


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Ain't gonna happen.


Well, one or the other will happen, The case is already in the court system.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Yes, I understand that there are several weaknesses in the arena of independent contractor status. But I also spent decades in the construction biz and saw the structure rip the hearts out of the common workforce. I know it inside and out.
> 
> The notion that Uber or Lyft will be cracked at that place is probably not workable. The independent contractor status has been used to manipulate the underpaid and underpriveledged here for decades now. It's not going away. And it came about PRIMARILY because of big .corp pile on's into the space of insurance and workers manipulating the work comp system. It deserved to die a proper death in many instances. Big .corp and big inefficiencies in the system are what caused the demise.
> 
> ...


It actually has happened in the limousine business, special definitions were created specifically for that industry.now does that mean everyone adheres to it? No. But that seems to be more because those drivers have made enough money on the side to not care enough to pursue it, but the definitions are fairly clear and the claim is theirs for the winning.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> Well, one or the other will happen, The case is already in the court system.


There are states that are more prone to force the hand. I'm not saying that Uber couldn't end up in a pickle in some areas of the country, particularly if their drivers are only one platform drivers. I doubt very much that Uber will be interested in taking on the numbers of drivers they have using their current model if that happens. Or they could wind up with the food service wait staff industry exception where less than min. wage is accepted IF they put the tip option in and *the drivers can actually hit minimum wage. (unlikely anyway!)*


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> It actually has happened in the limousine business, special definitions were created specifically for that industry.now does that mean everyone adheres to it? No. But that seems to be more because those drivers have made enough money on the side to not care enough to pursue it, but the definitions are fairly clear and the claim is theirs for the winning.


Oh yeah. There are whole big industries just waiting to pounce anymore i.e. attorney's and insurance companies.

*The entirety of our systemic problems resides in the legal system and the high powered attorneys that run our government.*

This country is so freakin corrupt at every level we're all about due to get our collective asses kicked.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Yes, I understand that there are several weaknesses in the arena of independent contractor status. But I also spent decades in the construction biz and saw the structure rip the hearts out of the common workforce. I know it inside and out.
> 
> The notion that Uber or Lyft will be cracked at that place is probably not workable. The independent contractor status has been used to manipulate the underpaid and underpriveledged here for decades now. It's not going away. And it came about PRIMARILY because of big .corp pile on's into the space of insurance and workers manipulating the work comp system. It deserved to die a proper death in many instances. Big .corp and big inefficiencies in the system are what caused the demise.
> 
> ...


I too am a supporter of the "independent contractor" when they are truly independent contractors, running their own business, with a two-way contract. I am not, a supporter, nor do I practice false classification in order to shift taxes, liability, and unemployment onto the backs of our chauffeurs.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> I too am a supporter of the "independent contractor" when they are truly independent contractors, running their own business, with a two-way contract. I am not, a supporter, nor do I practice false classification in order to shift taxes, liability, and unemployment onto the backs of our chauffeurs.


Yep, you have to balance the supply/demand/return ratio's just like everyone else eventually does. That's just part of the dealyO of basic capitalism.

Even a min. wage employee is sometimes not worth having if the demand/return quotient sucks. Seen it a thousand times. And without demand/return, even good people or the best people aren't worth a tinkers damn.


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## uberdc/Virginia (Sep 14, 2014)

If you read the independent contractor definition, it seems Uber is more in compliance than many other companies.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Oh yeah. There are whole big industries just waiting to pounce anymore i.e. attorney's and insurance companies.
> 
> *The entirety of our systemic problems resides in the legal system and the high powered attorneys that run our government.*
> 
> This country is so freakin corrupt at every level we're all about due to get our collective asses kicked.


Well, the fact is, aside from all other welfare provisions covered by taxes, we have an unemployment/safety net system built into our nation's employment laws. As long as those exist, certain rules have to be followed, or the burden will be unbearable on those Who do follow the rules. (Very similar to the transportation regulations Uber is skirting)

As long as the impoverished/unemployed/underemployed can turn to the state for welfare, taxes must be collected to fund said welfare.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

To summarize the most pressing points in order of priority, imho:

*-Insurance
-Rates
-Driver Saturation
-False advertising/misrepresentations/no payment situations to drivers
-Rating system
-Tips
-Illegal driver activities in relationship to state regulatory requirements
-Substance/random testing of drivers*

The employer/employee relationship wouldn't make my list. Neither will excess surge rates. These items should be pressed from the top of the list and down in that order, *especially the first 3.*


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

uberdc/Virginia said:


> If you read the independent contractor definition, it seems Uber is more in compliance than many other companies.


Ehhh, I think that is debatable, particularly with the rate changes and availability demands. The problem is, never before has a transportation company had enough drivers to make a significant claim. In many cases, the cash tip factor has been a deterrent to drivers (not worth winning the case and losing the " under the table" payouts)

Consider the Execucar car model,It has been in and out of courts for a while, but there are simply not enough drivers to make it a big deal in the grand scale of lawsuits.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> Well, the fact is, aside from all other welfare provisions covered by taxes, we have an unemployment/safety net system built into our nation's employment laws. As long as those exist, certain rules have to be followed, or the burden will be unbearable on those Who do follow the rules. (Very similar to the transportation regulations Uber is skirting)
> 
> As long as the impoverished/unemployed/underemployed can turn to the state for welfare, taxes must be collected to fund said welfare.


Well, that's all well and good but eventually, if the state has to take over anything it's going to be *a burden, mess, inefficient, excess tax situation.*

If we could back up the clock and make our legal system work *on the lower end i.e. affordability and efficiency of system*, our entire system would function perhaps much better. Just go right for the heart of each problem.

But unfortunately that is not likely to happen.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> To summarize the most pressing points in order of priority, imho:
> 
> *-Insurance
> -Rates
> ...


Those items will exist regardless of the court decision. My point was they will either win, affecting many other employees In other spaces, or they will lose, effectively shutting down their business


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Well, that's all well and good but eventually, if the state has to take over anything it's going to be *a burden, mess, inefficient, excess tax situation.*
> 
> If we could back up the clock and make our legal system work *on the lower end i.e. affordability and efficiency of system*, our entire system would function perhaps much better. Just go right for the heart of each problem.
> 
> But unfortunately that is not likely to happen.


I agree, once a system is in place, we all know it never goes away. This is why I was such a rabbit opponent to the ACA. It was not that I don't support reform in the system, I did not want to see an unsustainable system put in place.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> Those items will exist regardless of the court decision. My point was they will either win, affecting many other employees In other spaces, or they will lose, effectively shutting down their business


That just isn't going to happen. There are too many unemployed in this country. Anywhere there is a space available they will be packed in even if it's shit for pay. There are literally thousands of drivers already where I drive, and I'd suspect most of them are on the edge of desperation.

If this situation can not be handled by the system we WILL have a very great problem here shortly. I might put up some charts sometime to show the facts. The numbers are quite staggering.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> I agree, once a system is in place, we all know it never goes away. This is why I was such a rabbit opponent to the ACA. It was not that I don't support reform in the system, I did not want to see an unsustainable system put in place.


Don't even get me started on that one. Talk about government bloat, big corp. monopolies and over regulation resulting in one of the CRAPPIEST service and poor economic models on the face of the planet. geez. * This country will collapse on that item alone!*


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> That just isn't going to happen. There are too many unemployed in this country. Anywhere there is a space available they will be packed in even if it's shit for pay. There are literally thousands of drivers already where I drive, and I'd suspect most of them are on the edge of desperation.
> 
> If this situation can not be handled by the system we WILL have a very great problem here shortly. I might put up some charts sometime to show the facts. The numbers are quite staggering.


I think you're missing my point. My point is they will either be allowed to continue with the independent contractor status, which will open the door for many other companies to cut their employees loose, or, they will lose the case, which will break their back


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> I think you're missing my point. My point is they will either be allowed to continue with the independent contractor status, which will open the door for many other companies to cut their employees loose, or, they will lose the case, which will break their back


The employee/employer/independent contractor things are usually duked out at the state level. We're not going to see a sweeping victory (it wouldn't be a victory imho) if Uber had to classify drivers as employees. It would only mean the end of ride share in some states.

NYC is infamous for over regulation. They made independent contractor status work there for ride share. IF it works there it works anywhere.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> The employee/employer/independent contractor things are usually duked out at the state level. We're not going to see a sweeping victory (it wouldn't be a victory imho) if Uber had to classify drivers as employees. It would only mean the end of ride share in some states.
> 
> NYC is infamous for over regulation. They made independent contractor status work there for ride share. IF it works there it works anywhere.


In New York, since the drivers have licenses, they truly can be independent contractors. If this current class-action lawsuit is lost, it will set a precedent for all other states, that is assuming that the suit remains at a state decision. If the Rideshare ends, so will Uber. They've screwed too many independent operators to rely on them to make up for the loss.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> In New York, since the drivers have licenses, they truly can be independent contractors. If this current class-action lawsuit is lost, it will set a precedent for all other states, that is assuming that the suit remains at a state decision. If the Rideshare ends, so will Uber. They've screwed too many independent operators to rely on them to make up for the loss.


If you think the court system is going to make millions of independent contractors employees think again.

I'm not familiar with the class action you are referencing though. How large is the class is always the question. If it's just a state, meh. They'll just lose the service. Too bad for pax. Good for you maybe?


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> If you think the court system is going to make millions of independent contractors employees think again.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the class action you are referencing though. How large is the class is always the question. If it's just a state, meh. They'll just lose the service. Too bad for pax. Good for you maybe?


If the courts rule this model is IC, it most certainly opens the doors for others to follow suit. The classification laws are what has kept many "honest"


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> If the courts rule this model is IC, it most certainly opens the doors for others to follow suit. The classification laws are what has kept many "honest"


The first gut check on IC is multiple sources of work. Uber is only a platform. Pax supply the work. Uber is just a pass through portal.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> The first gut check on IC is multiple sources of work. Uber is only a platform. Pax supply the work. Uber is just a pass through portal.


Legal classifications go beyond gut check, and will probably get even tighter with the new healthcare act.

Liss-Riordan has been considerably successful in a few of her other class actions.


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

I wonder if uber will conquer Saudi Arabia. Drivers there needn't worry about gas expense.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> The first gut check on IC is multiple sources of work. Uber is only a platform. Pax supply the work. Uber is just a pass through portal.


First of all, the fact that they promote the service, and provide (albeit weak), customer service related to the trip, puts that argument on very shaky ground. If the drivers were all truly independent contractors using a software platform, the customer service issues would be routed directly to the provider, that provider being the driver. 
Instead, issues are resolved by uber, and drivers are penalized with no option to represent themselves.

For all intents and purposes, uber falls under the chauffeured limousine clauses.

Here are limo specific rules.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/limo.pdf


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## pUber_driver (Nov 2, 2014)

Lidman said:


> I wonder if uber will conquer Saudi Arabia. Drivers there needn't worry about gas expense.


Women aren't allowed to drive there. There's your market niche


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

pUber_driver said:


> Women aren't allowed to drive there. There's your market niche


I can see the headlines now: "Uber driver leaves blind passenger at the curb, taking dog only" Lol


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## Berliner (Oct 29, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> The first gut check on IC is multiple sources of work. Uber is only a platform. Pax supply the work. Uber is just a pass through portal.


One Question: If Uber is only a platform, why do they have an own insurance for their IC in case of accident?


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Berliner said:


> One Question: If Uber is only a platform, why do they have an own insurance for their IC in case of accident?


Precisely! They have put too many layers in place which contradict the independent contractor definitions.


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## DjTim (Oct 18, 2014)

Wow, this thread blew up over night. This is what I get for sleeping LOL...



Tx rides said:


> If they win, it will be a stake in the heart of many employees in this country, if they lose, it will be a stake in the heart of many other 1099-based companies. This will be where the bullet hits the bone!


IC status will not be over turned. It will go to court, and it will get thrown out. IC status for the transportation industry has been around since before I was born. In my research, what will and generally makes IC status incorrect is around the "Fees" and "Access" to a "System/information", Uniform fees, and other fees that are meant to remove earnings from the IC and force "Compliance" by Fees. I can only compare Uber to what my experience is with other transportation companies, but it's related to goods/freight. FedEx, UPS, JB Hunt, and many other companies have been sued to change the IC status for their drivers. the drivers/IC's have lost all the cases. Smaller transportation companies have lost cases and were fined, but IC status was never over turned - courts generally told companies "you must change your practices" and the companies complied and kept their workforce as IC.



uberdc/Virginia said:


> If you read the independent contractor definition, it seems Uber is more in compliance than many other companies.


I agree - Uber us much more in compliance then many other companies I've heard about. Uber just dropped the iPhone fees, so in essence you do not "Pay" them for access to their systems. You are not required to "Pay" for a uniform, or maps, documents, etc..." We as IC's may not like the fee structure, or the ability to set fee levels, but we have the ability to not work. And - not working doesn't count against us, deactivation happens after 30 days I think. I've hired contractors in the IT field. I had a few that wanted to "negotiate" a higher fee. That person wasn't retained as a contractor. As long as Uber charges regulatory fees outside of what we as IC's are compensated then they are generally in compliance.



Tx rides said:


> First of all, the fact that they promote the service, and provide (albeit weak), customer service related to the trip, puts that argument on very shaky ground. If the drivers were all truly independent contractors using a software platform, the customer service issues would be routed directly to the provider, that provider being the driver.
> Instead, issues are resolved by uber, and drivers are penalized with no option to represent themselves.


I don't know of any single company that would forward complaints about service for the IC and customer to haggle over. What I have seen is the company had to build a process to allow the IC to bring/dispute any complaints about unfair pay/practices/service. Molly Maid is a good example. In Illinois, Molly Maid's IC's sued the parent company. There were many cases of theft, general wrong doing by the IC's and the IC's were being docked commissions. IC's wanted the ability to dispute directly with the customers. The court found that the parent company of Molly Maid needed to build a better avenue to fix the disputes in commissions. Molly Maid was fined but IC status was not over turned, and Molly Maid was forced to payback all disputed commissions. I wanted to throw a link in for the direct case, but my Google-FU isn't working. I think this case was under different company and IC names, so I apologize for no links here.

One thing to add - we tend to look at things much different then Uber, Lyft, SideCar does. As I said previously in this thread, they are looking at the market not as a transportation company, but as a "tech" company selling a "Product". They are selling an application that connects riders to drivers - social media for cars. The rideshare companies allow "In-App" purchases of services, to get the application user from point a to point b. They are the "Tinder" or "Facebook" of car service. This is how Uber gets their 13 billion dollar value. That 13 billion doesn't include us as IC's, we aren't apart of that valuation. That isn't going to change IC status - it will just reinforce it.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

DjTim said:


> Wow, this thread blew up over night. This is what I get for sleeping LOL...
> 
> IC status will not be over turned. It will go to court, and it will get thrown out. IC status for the transportation industry has been around since before I was born. In my research, what will and generally makes IC status incorrect is around the "Fees" and "Access" to a "System/information", Uniform fees, and other fees that are meant to remove earnings from the IC and force "Compliance" by Fees. I can only compare Uber to what my experience is with other transportation companies, but it's related to goods/freight. FedEx, UPS, JB Hunt, and many other companies have been sued to change the IC status for their drivers. the drivers/IC's have lost all the cases. Smaller transportation companies have lost cases and were fined, but IC status was never over turned - courts generally told companies "you must change your practices" and the companies complied and kept their workforce as IC.
> 
> ...


I don't necessarily agree with you. There have definitely been some court rulings about IC status. FedEx lost one last July in Massachusetts. The more information which comes out, the more this company looks like a transportation facilitator not just a software company. I am currently an IT contractor, and was previously a full-time employee for the company I currently contract for. In my last role, I was very involved in the ins and outs of the contract law. Just because a company ignores it does not mean they cannot be ruled against. The trick is, how many complaints can they get, and what is the political environment in the courts? I think, with the new 1099 economy, we are probably going to see a major shift in politics, particularly in the states which provide the most welfare safety nets and rely on the most income tax. 2015 is going to expose a lot of the flaws in the ACA, particularly as more people lose their company coverage as independent contractors.

The watch dogs are sharpening their fangs

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertw...kdown-on-mislabeling-independent-contractors/


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## Damnsammit (Nov 7, 2014)

Woober said:


> Good video. Lots of good material there. Her hand movements are a bit extreme though. (Am I being shallow?)


Not at all. I found her delivery to be annoying at times, but it was still a good video.


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## DjTim (Oct 18, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> I don't necessarily agree with you. There have definitely been some court rulings about IC status. FedEx lost one last July in Massachusetts. The more information which comes out, the more this company looks like a transportation facilitator not just a software company. I am currently an IT contractor, and was previously a full-time employee for the company I currently contract for. In my last role, I was very involved in the ins and outs of the contract law. Just because a company ignores it does not mean they cannot be ruled against. The trick is, how many complaints can they get, and what is the political environment in the courts? I think, with the new 1099 economy, we are probably going to see a major shift in politics, particularly in the states which provide the most welfare safety nets and rely on the most income tax. 2015 is going to expose a lot of the flaws in the ACA, particularly as more people lose their company coverage as independent contractors.
> 
> The watch dogs are sharpening their fangs
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertw...kdown-on-mislabeling-independent-contractors/


One thing to remember in the Fex-Ex case, It was in the state of Kansas, and Fed-Ex internally stopped using the IC label for individual employees in 2011. Also, this decision only impacted drivers from 1998 to 2007. Fedex won't win on appeal but it won't cost them much to drag it out.

Here is what the court said about Fedex:

Factors the court considered included: how much training the delivery company provided the drivers and how the drivers' *work hours were set*, FedEx's requirements of drivers to comply with its instructions, and how integrated the drivers' services were to FedEx's business
I bolded work hours - every article and the case summary blasts the amount of hours that FedEx forces their drivers to work or not be compensated. FedEx made the mistake of _not paying_ the drivers. FedEx also did not allow their drivers to preform "side" services, or freight delivery outside of the FedEx system, forcing them to be, more or less an employee.

The main thing here - that relates to us - we are not forced to work a set schedule. We are also not forced to work just for "Uber". IANAL, but from just looking on the outside - it would be hard for us to bring a case that we are owed wages because we are an employee.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

DjTim said:


> One thing to remember in the Fex-Ex case, It was in the state of Kansas, and Fed-Ex internally stopped using the IC label for individual employees in 2011. Also, this decision only impacted drivers from 1998 to 2007. Fedex won't win on appeal but it won't cost them much to drag it out.
> 
> Here is what the court said about Fedex:
> 
> ...


In a sense, your work is dictated by their acceptance terms.

Other factors:

-Uber's right to control the manner in means by which your service is accomplished.

-You have no right to subcontract

-The one sided rate setting

-The one sided customer sat/issue resolution method

-the EXTREMELY weak argument that they are a technology platform

Btw...fedex rulings were similar for Oregon and California. Many states are signing on with DOL misclassification pact (because they are losing money with this 1099 economy)

I'm confident that the nanny state politicians will drive this home eventually. Once stories start circulating about poor drivers who have had their vehicles repossessed, Are in eligible for unemployment benefits, etc.&#8230; We will see more focus on this. You know they will not be able to help themselves.


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## DjTim (Oct 18, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> -You have no right to subcontract


Correct me if I am wrong, I thought the original "Partners" program was for limo "companies" to gain access to Uber's platform - and this could be a company with multiple employees. I don't know enough about the Black stuff.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

DjTim said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, I thought the original "Partners" program was for limo "companies" to gain access to Uber's platform - and this could be a company with multiple employees. I don't know enough about the Black stuff.


You are 100% correct. In fact, Kalonick was protesting Lyft as cheaters just a few years ago. He changed that game and followed suit


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite (Nov 11, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> To summarize the most pressing points in order of priority, imho:
> 
> *-Insurance
> -Rates
> ...


The employer/employee relationship, if established, would fix most of those issues (or destroy Uber outright, which is also good).


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