# Maintenance and repair cost of SDC systems?



## getawaycar (Jul 10, 2017)

I wonder how much it will cost it would cost to repair an SDC sensor or other parts when they malfunction or break? Hint: It involves the use of highly-trained technicians who are specially trained to service SDC systems, which won't be cheap. So my guess, it would be crazy expensive.


----------



## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

Lidar will be recalibrated because of its rotating parts, or replaced.

Cameras replaced.

Radars replaced.

The new generation lidars, without any rotating parts are around $80.000 each.- https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.te...-keep-self-driving-cars-in-the-slow-lane/amp/

Edit - cooling off the computer systems onboard and the amount of electricity needed to keep everything going is another problem developers have, because the range shortens with every single gallon of gas used to produce electricity, or with every kilowatt from the battery, in order to run and cool down the heavy hardware.


----------



## Aardvark (Sep 18, 2018)

jocker12 said:


> The new generation lidars, without any rotating parts are around $80.000 each.


Three dollars, not eighty thousand dollars.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17224836/luminar-lidar-scale-cost-self-driving-car

"Luminar also brought the cost of its receivers down from tens of thousands of dollars per unit to just $3"​


----------



## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

Aardvark said:


> Three dollars, not eighty thousand dollars.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17224836/luminar-lidar-scale-cost-self-driving-car
> 
> "Luminar also brought the cost of its receivers down from tens of thousands of dollars per unit to just $3"​


Sorry, I was referring to the last generation Lidar sensors, not the ones you can buy at Dollar store.

"But top-of-the-line LiDAR, which has come down in price substantially over the last couple years, is still prohibitively expensive for most market applications. Velodyne's 64-laser LiDAR system costs about $80,000, for example." (June 27th, 2018) - https://www.zdnet.com/article/could-thermal-sensors-have-prevented-ubers-fatal-crash/

When your primitive robot goes blind, I assume you would like to make a point and prove the "naysayers" wrong, and use the top of the line sensors, not piece of crap cartboard compass worth 3 bucks.










This is the 64 channels $80.000 Lidar sensor










Waymo uses it -
"The $75,000 Velodyne HDL-64E is $75,000 because it uses 64 lasers and 64 photodiodes to scan the world (a laser/photodiode pair is a "channel" in LIDAR parlance). This results in 64 "lines" of data output, which you can see in the image above. The $8000 Velodyne Puck only has 16 channels, so while it is cheaper and less complex, you're also getting a much lower resolution view of the world. Eventually you can cut a LIDAR system down to something cheap enough to fit in sub-$1000 consumer devices like the LIDAR-powered Neato Botvac robotic vacuum, which uses a single-laser system for a 2D view of the world. At what point does the system become too low resolution to be useful for a self-driving car, though?

Waymo seems to favor a higher-detail view of the world, with Krafcik saying "The detail we capture is so high that, not only can we detect pedestrians all around us, but we can tell which direction they're facing. This is incredibly important, as it helps us more accurately predict where someone will walk next." - https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/0...in-lidar-technology-cuts-costs-by-90-percent/

Some different sources are pricing the *Velodyne HDL-64E at a stagerring $100.000* - "Lidar is by far the most expensive sensor on the vehicle. The VLP-16 is "only" $8,000, but Velodyne's top-end HDL-64E retails for about $100,000. And even at that price, historically there has been a multi-month backlog!" - https://medium.com/self-driving-cars/velodyne-lidar-price-reduction-d358f245f086

Oh, and look what I found. Especially for you, the 5 day old Waymo lover new UP member










How ironic is this?


----------



## Aardvark (Sep 18, 2018)

jocker12 said:


> Sorry, I was referring to the last generation Lidar sensors, not the ones you can buy at Dollar store.
> 
> "But top-of-the-line LiDAR, which has come down in price substantially over the last couple years, is still prohibitively expensive for most market applications. Velodyne's 64-laser LiDAR system costs about $80,000, for example." (June 27th, 2018) - https://www.zdnet.com/article/could-thermal-sensors-have-prevented-ubers-fatal-crash/
> 
> ...


"The bottom line is that while bringing lidar costs down will take a significant amount of difficult engineering work, there don't seem to be any fundamental barriers to bringing the cost of high-quality lidar down below $1,000-and eventually below $100.

That means the technology-and ultimately, self-driving vehicles that depend on lidar-should be well within reach for ordinary consumers. For years, pundits have touted cost as a major barrier to mainstream adoption of self-driving cars, with a $75,000 Velodyne lidar as the most expensive item on the equipment list.

But this fundamentally misunderstands the situation. Experimental, low-volume hardware for cutting-edge technology is almost always expensive. It's through the process of mass manufacturing and iterative improvement that companies learn to make it cheaper. Right now, lidar technology is at the very beginning of that curve-where antilock brakes were in the early 1980s."

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/01/driving-around-without-a-driver-lidar-technology-explained/


----------



## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

Aardvark said:


> "The bottom line is that while bringing lidar costs down will take a significant amount of difficult engineering work, there don't seem to be any fundamental barriers to bringing the cost of high-quality lidar down below $1,000-and eventually below $100.
> 
> That means the technology-and ultimately, self-driving vehicles that depend on lidar-should be well within reach for ordinary consumers. For years, pundits have touted cost as a major barrier to mainstream adoption of self-driving cars, with a $75,000 Velodyne lidar as the most expensive item on the equipment list.
> 
> ...


Again, it's not the first time I am using information about real pricing from latest articles about the topic, while you are showing relatively old articles about projections.

Those projections, like your feelings as a kid, have NO relevance, or they have as much relevance as a Star Trek episode.

I know you like the iPhone example. Well, nobody is buying or using the first iPhone that is probably worth $10. Why? Because every single year there is at one that is a little better and is a little bit more expensive than its predecessor. Interestingly enough, the prices for the best hardware are going up, not down.

The developers need to do way much better (do miracles as far as I am concerned) in order for you to have something challenging for our discussion.

I need to tell you self driving cars are dead horses already and nobody would be able to make them work.

The dumb horse Waymo is our best example. Only one Lidar sensor they are using on a car is $75.000. And that horse brings zero revenue to its owner. That his "brilliant" sustainable business model.


----------



## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

Aardvark said:


> "The bottom line is that while bringing lidar costs down will take a significant amount of difficult engineering work, there don't seem to be any fundamental barriers to bringing the cost of high-quality lidar down below $1,000-and eventually below $100.
> 
> That means the technology-and ultimately, self-driving vehicles that depend on lidar-should be well within reach for ordinary consumers. For years, pundits have touted cost as a major barrier to mainstream adoption of self-driving cars, with a $75,000 Velodyne lidar as the most expensive item on the equipment list.
> 
> ...


Wow, Tomato you're using complete sentences! Are you taking your meds? Good boy!


----------



## Aardvark (Sep 18, 2018)

jocker12 said:


> Again, it's not the first time I am using information about real pricing from latest articles about the topic, while you are showing relatively old articles about projections.
> 
> Those projections, like your feelings as a kid, have NO relevance, or they have as much relevance as a Star Trek episode.
> 
> ...


Wrong on both counts.

1.
"Just a few years ago, a single top-of-the-range lidar cost upwards of $75,000. Today, we've brought down that cost by more than 90%," Krafcik said. "As we look to scale, we will do even better, with the goal of making this technology accessible to millions of people."

https://www.businessinsider.com/goo...0-in-effort-to-scale-self-driving-cars-2017-1

2.
These businesses are currently paying Waymo to transport their customers in Waymo self driving cars.

Walmart
Avis
AutoNation
DDR (shopping mall)
Element Hotel
Downtown Chandler Community Partnership
Valley Metro (Phoenix area's regional public transportation authority)
https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/25/w...others-to-expand-access-to-self-driving-cars/

https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/31/waymo-partners-with-phoenix-to-connect-people-to-public-transit/

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix...alley-business-group-partners-with-waymo.html


----------



## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

Aardvark said:


> Wrong on both counts.
> 
> 1.
> "Just a few years ago, a single top-of-the-range lidar cost upwards of $75,000. Today, we've brought down that cost by more than 90%," Krafcik said. "As we look to scale, we will do even better, with the goal of making this technology accessible to millions of people."
> ...


Would you agree the iPhone price is going up with every model they get out every year (even if is sold in bulk)?

The iPhone was released in the United States on June 29, 2007 at the price of *$499* for the 4 GB model and *$599* for the 8 GB model, both requiring a 2-year contract.

versus the last model XS


----------



## Aardvark (Sep 18, 2018)

jocker12 said:


> Would you agree the iPhone price is going up with every model they get out every year (even if is sold in bulk)?


Would you agree this is a vanity purchase on the part of the purchaser because they want to be seen with the latest and greatest? Would you agree Apple is aware of this and using it to their advantage? Would you agree that the cost of a new Iphone 7 or Iphone 8 is actually going down substantially? Would you agree that the average purchaser of $200 Air Jordans are not buying them to help with their jump shot?

Would you agree that a 100k Tesla model S is far less practical than a Toyota Camry and yet people still buy Tesla model S's? Would you agree that a 40 inch 720p tv 15 years ago went for about four thousand dollars, while a 43 inch 4k smart tv goes for around 265 dollars today? Would you agree that anti-lock brakes are a commodity and not a luxury item and therefore Toyota can't raise the price of the Camry because the anti-lock brake system now comes in fuchsia?


----------



## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

Aardvark said:


> Would you agree this is a vanity purchase on the part of the purchaser because they want to be seen with the latest and greatest? Would you agree Apple is aware of this and using it to their advantage? Would you agree that the cost of a new Iphone 7 or Iphone 8 is actually going down substantially? Would you agree that the average purchaser of $200 Air Jordans are not buying them to help with their jump shot?
> 
> Would you agree that a 100k Tesla model S is far less practical than a Toyota Camry and yet people still buy Tesla model S's? Would you agree that a 40 inch 720p tv 15 years ago went for about four thousand dollars, while a 43 inch 4k smart tv goes for around 265 dollars today? Would you agree that anti-lock brakes are a commodity and not a luxury item and therefore Toyota can't raise the price of the Camry because the anti-lock brake system now comes in fuchsia?
> 
> View attachment 261493


Would you agree the Tomato is now an Aardvark?


----------



## backstreets-trans (Aug 16, 2015)

getawaycar said:


> I wonder how much it will cost it would cost to repair an SDC sensor or other parts when they malfunction or break? Hint: It involves the use of highly-trained technicians who are specially trained to service SDC systems, which won't be cheap. So my guess, it would be crazy expensive.


I read somewhere that the real saving was projected at 4%. Now that Uber is stealing the majority of the surge SDC will probably be more expensive to operate. SDC will get disabled from bug guts splatter over cameras and lidar. If a passenger doesn't close the door or trunk the car can't move. Homeless people will sneak in and take up residence. They've already stole a majority of the dockless bikes now.

The insides of these car will look similar to a port-o-john after each shift. Uber customers will be eating, drinking, smoking, puking and having sex in these shit boxes.

Uber screwed up the redesign of a new app and has changed the logo 3 times already but they keep trying to convince investors that SDC and flying taxis are right around the corner. What a ponzi scheme.


----------



## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

Aardvark said:


> Would you agree this is a vanity purchase on the part of the purchaser because they want to be seen with the latest and greatest? Would you agree Apple is aware of this and using it to their advantage? Would you agree that the cost of a new Iphone 7 or Iphone 8 is actually going down substantially? Would you agree that the average purchaser of $200 Air Jordans are not buying them to help with their jump shot?
> 
> Would you agree that a 100k Tesla model S is far less practical than a Toyota Camry and yet people still buy Tesla model S's? Would you agree that a 40 inch 720p tv 15 years ago went for about four thousand dollars, while a 43 inch 4k smart tv goes for around 265 dollars today? Would you agree that anti-lock brakes are a commodity and not a luxury item and therefore Toyota can't raise the price of the Camry because the anti-lock brake system now comes in fuchsia?
> 
> View attachment 261493


I've asked you a simple question. Yes or no?

The same way you say "vanity", in Lidar sensors case it would be "safety".

If you want to continue this dialogue, please answer the question. As far as I am concerned, as long as your questions will be ON TOPIC, I will address them.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

M


jocker12 said:


> Lidar will be recalibrated because of its rotating parts, or replaced.
> 
> Cameras replaced.
> 
> ...


Massive cooling systems for computers add weight and subtract room & fuel economy.w
Any overheating of the onboard " Brain" could prove fatal to the system and PASSENGERS.

Technicians required to troubleshoot and repair and maintain systems will always have a huge backlog.
The uber vehicle facilities will resemble a chop shop.
Acres of vehicles OUT OF COMMISSION.
Hundreds of cars Cannibalized for parts and quick fixes.

It will be a mess.



iheartuber said:


> Would you agree the Tomato is now an Aardvark?


Two Thumbs Down on Rotten Tomato Rating Scale.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

getawaycar said:


> I wonder how much it will cost it would cost to repair an SDC sensor or other parts when they malfunction or break? Hint: It involves the use of highly-trained technicians who are specially trained to service SDC systems, which won't be cheap. So my guess, it would be crazy expensive.


They will be part-swap technicians, not repair people. The sensors themselves aren't going to be expensive.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

NUCLEAR FLYING CARS !


----------



## Aardvark (Sep 18, 2018)

jocker12 said:


> I've asked you a simple question. Yes or no?
> 
> The same way you say "vanity", in Lidar sensors case it would be "safety".
> 
> If you want to continue this dialogue, please answer the question. As far as I am concerned, as long as your questions will be ON TOPIC, I will address them.


Apple has identified a segment of the market willing to pay $1,400 for a phone, good for them. How does that affect me? It doesn't. If Rolls Royce increases the cost of the Phantom by ten percent a year, how does that affect me? It doesn't. Apple selling a luxury item to willing buyers has nothing to do with the falling cost of lidar systems due to iterative improvements and mass production.


----------



## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

Aardvark said:


> Apple has identified a segment of the market willing to pay $1,400 for a phone, good for them. How does that affect me? It doesn't. If Rolls Royce increases the cost of the Phantom by ten percent a year, how does that affect me? It doesn't. Apple selling a luxury item to willing buyers has nothing to do with the falling cost of lidar systems due to iterative improvements and mass production.


Tomato, I think what jocker12 is saying is that he found evidence (and he's using common sense) that says that the cost of these very important sensors will be way more to maintain than would be physically possible to cover in a reasonable cost of the robo taxi.

Of course you're gonna pull out evidence to the contrary because finding evidence whether real or not that proves your point is what Think tanks do


----------



## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

Aardvark said:


> Apple has identified a segment of the market willing to pay $1,400 for a phone, good for them. How does that affect me? It doesn't. If Rolls Royce increases the cost of the Phantom by ten percent a year, how does that affect me? It doesn't. Apple selling a luxury item to willing buyers has nothing to do with the falling cost of lidar systems due to iterative improvements and mass production.


So if the prices go up (in order for today businesses to make sense), why does your logic tells you sensor manufacturers will *gradually lower the prices and* *gradually increase technical characteristics of their products*? (I want you to be aware of the "must have and provide better safety" of the overall vehicle performance, through better definition pixel per inch imaging, better range, more robust, resistant and compact design).

Even if you look at the car manufacturers, according to your logic, on every new model prices will go down, but realistically they go up.

I've seen you trying to make the old generation products price decrease argument, but when is about *safety*, no client or customer will purchase old generation products as new (not previously used) when it comes to providing a public service (in our case transportation), especially when that product is an important component of the system obstacle detection and avoidance in self driving cars units.


----------



## Showa50 (Nov 30, 2014)

Ask someone that owns a Tesla. It's really expensive.


----------



## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

Look guys, it’s real simple: when you run a business, you have to think of EVERYTHING.

The Tomato’s firm clearly did not.

Whoopsies!


----------



## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

jocker12 said:


> Again, it's not the first time I am using information about real pricing from latest articles about the topic, while you are showing relatively old articles about projections.
> 
> Those projections, like your feelings as a kid, have NO relevance, or they have as much relevance as a Star Trek episode.
> 
> ...


tomato speaks using unicorn language, namely talking about things that will never happen


----------

