# Bringing a better pay structure to drivers



## Driveroptimization (May 27, 2017)

As a driver in the Atlanta, GA area, I personally completed more than 2,000 rides combined on both Uber and Lyft platforms and in the process I had systematically collected and analyzed those rides in terms of unloaded miles and wait times. What I found was that I had to work long hours - on average, more than 11 hours per day and drive lots of miles, approximately 280 miles per day to consistently earn about $100 for the day. The starling aspect of this was that about 50% of the miles I drove were unpaid for (meaning I had no rider in the car) and approximately 50% of the time I was waiting for a rider, and thus my waiting time was not paid for.

This revelation led me to conclude that the business model used by Uber & Lyft is still very inefficient and a large part of this inefficiency was due to the fact that drivers are underpaid, and therefore they drive less hours than they might have driven if they were paid better. Additionally, I believe that both Uber and Lyft have too many drivers in any one area, and therefore each driver is underutilized.

My position is that drivers can be paid more by (a) significantly reducing the inefficiencies described above, (b) employing less drivers in the pool who would be willing to work longer hours for a better pay and lower cost. I not only believe this, I am doing something very practical and scientific about it and I kindly need the help of this community to help me do so.

My request to this community is to kindly ask you as drivers (past or present) for Uber, Lyft and or others to please complete this survey found here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/researchondrivers.com


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

Yes, they are underpaying drivers with the standard rates, then enticing drivers to drive more with surge, boost and bonuses. They are also having to do constant recruitment to replace drivers who quit, which is expensive when there is 90% driver turnover annually. If they just paid better in the first place, drivers would drive. Perhaps if they didn't perpetuate their shady image by overcharging passengers and underpaying drivers, that would help too.


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## Driveroptimization (May 27, 2017)

Atom Guy - It is the same reality that I came to why I am trying to scientifically make that case. Therefore, this is why I am asking you and the rest of the community to please complete the survey.

I am also going beyond theory by actually doing something about it.


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## Driveroptimization (May 27, 2017)

Most people that drive for Uber and or Lyft are not happy with their take home pay because they come to the conclusion that they are working for less than minimum wage, so my question is why do they continue to drive for both?


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## kdyrpr (Apr 23, 2016)

Driveroptimization said:


> Most people that drive for Uber and or Lyft are not happy with their take home pay because they come to the conclusion that they are working for less than minimum wage, so my question is why do they continue to drive for both?


The biggest factor is whether or not you do this as your main source of income. In my case I have always done this part time. Many of us that started doing this enjoyed the "easy money" at first. Also, it was kinda fun. I even enjoyed picking up drunk college kids. Obviously after a few weeks or months reality sets in. I still do this but have cut down on my driving considerably. Without divulging strategy I have been sucessful in being able to get mostly longer $10-40 trips. The beauty of these beyond the larger payout is that the miles driven (almost always highway) are easy on my vehicle. I almost consider this a hobby as opposed to anything else.


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## Driveroptimization (May 27, 2017)

So would it be a fair statement to say that drivers would choose to work longer hours and stay longer in the system as drivers, if the compensation was greater?


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## Jagent (Jan 29, 2017)

Driveroptimization said:


> So would it be a fair statement to say that drivers would choose to work longer hours and stay longer in the system as drivers, if the compensation was greater?


Absolutely.


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## Carbalbm (Jun 6, 2016)

Driveroptimization said:


> So would it be a fair statement to say that drivers would choose to work longer hours and stay longer in the system as drivers, if the compensation was greater?


You just described any job. That statement is common sense.

The problem here is the better compensation, the more people will apply for the job. It is in Uber's interest to sign up as many drivers as possible, in order to provide the shortest wait time to their customer. More drivers chasing a better earning, means fewer rides available for each driver. Limiting the drivers is the same approach the taxis took, and everyone hates them for it.


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## Driveroptimization (May 27, 2017)

Carbalbm said:


> You just described any job. That statement is common sense.
> 
> The problem here is the better compensation, the more people will apply for the job. It is in Uber's interest to sign up as many drivers as possible, in order to provide the shortest wait time to their customer. More drivers chasing a better earning, means fewer rides available for each driver. Limiting the drivers is the same approach the taxis took, and everyone hates them for it.


Yes, the statement may be true for any job, but for most jobs one could argue that there are control mechanisms that are put in place to ensure some form of parity. What will happen when autonomous cars are introduced in the pipeline, do you think Uber/Lyft is going to increase the number of autonomous cars based on the current metrics they use with drivers of their own cars today? I suspect they are going to find an equilibrium that will provide the balance between autonomous cars and passenger demands.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Driveroptimization said:


> Most people that drive for Uber and or Lyft are not happy with their take home pay because they come to the conclusion that they are working for less than minimum wage, so my question is why do they continue to drive for both?


As much as drivers complain about the terms driving for Uber, many of them probably came from jobs where you are an employee that were worse jobs... jobs that are boring, tedious, inflexible, surrounded by ignorant and annoying superiors etc.

The fact is that Uber is an easy and flexible job. It is hard to quantify and different for each person, but there is a value to that which compensates for lower pay.

I'd rather drive Uber than go back to my previous job even though my previous job paid more hourly than I make now before I even take expenses out.



Driveroptimization said:


> So would it be a fair statement to say that drivers would choose to work longer hours and stay longer in the system as drivers, if the compensation was greater?


But WHY would Uber as a company care whether the drivers stay in the system longer or work more hours when they can make up for that with more drivers and a constant influx of new drivers to replace the old?

The fact that drivers that remain would benefit from less drivers is obvious. But passengers do not benefit from less drivers and rideshare companies do not benefit from less drivers. And drivers that get fired to make the other drivers have more profit do not benefit.


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## uberlyfting123 (Mar 16, 2017)

We don't need a better pay structure. We need people who are literally losing money driving for Uber to quit. I don't understand how anyone could drive 280 miles and only make $100? That is a losing proposition. If there was a better pay structure, guess what? More drivers come online and we make less. People not getting it. Uber pay is fine, we have too many drivers willing to drive for nothing.


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

Driveroptimization said:


> Yes, the statement may be true for any job, but for most jobs one could argue that there are control mechanisms that are put in place to ensure some form of parity. What will happen when autonomous cars are introduced in the pipeline, do you think Uber/Lyft is going to increase the number of autonomous cars based on the current metrics they use with drivers of their own cars today? I suspect they are going to find an equilibrium that will provide the balance between autonomous cars and passenger demands.


If Uber paid more they could be more selective with who they let become drivers. The downward slide of rates has forced Uber to loosen its standards on who drives and what cars they drive.



uberlyfting123 said:


> We don't need a better pay structure. We need people who are literally losing money driving for Uber to quit. I don't understand how anyone could drive 280 miles and only make $100? That is a losing proposition. If there was a better pay structure, guess what? More drivers come online and we make less. People not getting it. Uber pay is fine, we have too many drivers willing to drive for nothing.


The Uber rate structure is NOT fine. I did 16 trips today for $74 in 6 hours 45 minutes. The minimum fare is too low, and the per minute rate at least is too low - $.10/minute in my market. I was lucky today that I only drove 115 miles to get that $74. Most days it is 2 miles for every $1 earned.


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## Driveroptimization (May 27, 2017)

So the response here on the subject varies from (a) no, Uber/Lyft pay structure is not fine, (b) It's ok only if I drive a few hours for other reasons other than to get a sufficiently good compensation (c) yes the Uber/Lyft pay structure is good and that the only change needed is that foolish people should get out and leave those who have learned to work the system to achieve better compensation.

Given the wide variation, may I ask each of you two things (1) to please complete the survey found here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/researchondrivers. (2) Please encourage others to take the survey. What this survey will do, is to help provide scientific basis to provide sound data on the subject.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Driveroptimization said:


> As a driver in the Atlanta, GA area, I personally completed more than 2,000 rides combined on both Uber and Lyft platforms and in the process I had systematically collected and analyzed those rides in terms of unloaded miles and wait times. What I found was that I had to work long hours - on average, more than 11 hours per day and drive lots of miles, approximately 280 miles per day to consistently earn about $100 for the day. The starling aspect of this was that about 50% of the miles I drove were unpaid for (meaning I had no rider in the car) and approximately 50% of the time I was waiting for a rider, and thus my waiting time was not paid for.
> 
> This revelation led me to conclude that the business model used by Uber & Lyft is still very inefficient and a large part of this inefficiency was due to the fact that drivers are underpaid, and therefore they drive less hours than they might have driven if they were paid better. Additionally, I believe that both Uber and Lyft have too many drivers in any one area, and therefore each driver is underutilized.
> 
> ...


I think you're missing one important part. They don't give a s*** about the drivers. So it doesn't matter if the system is inefficient because the inefficiency is all on our side. It doesn't matter if we don't make money because we're the ones not making money. Travis isn't missing any meals is he? Nothing will change unless Uber realizes that it's driving itself into the ground. Or if the driver stop driving. All the science and complaining in the world is not going to matter one iota to the people at Uber.


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## Driveroptimization (May 27, 2017)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> I think you're missing one important part. They don't give a s*** about the drivers. So it doesn't matter if the system is inefficient because the inefficiency is all on our side. It doesn't matter if we don't make money because we're the ones not making money. Travis isn't missing any meals is he? Nothing will change unless Uber realizes that it's driving itself into the ground. Or if the driver stop driving. All the science and complaining in the world is not going to matter one iota to the people at Uber.


Well, the thing is that perhaps a disruptor may come along and find a way to address the inefficiencies that will benefit the drivers bottom line and this may cause a shift in the industry.


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## uberlyfting123 (Mar 16, 2017)

Look. Uber is much better in Math than any of us. They got this thing worked out with alogrithms that 99% of us have no comprehension of. Their goal is to make money. Not make drivers rich. Funny thing they are still reporting 700million in loses I have no idea how they are doing that. 

Uber decides per market how much they can put out. They have standard of living charts, and know how much a driver needs to try to make a living. Uber is Not here for You! 

If we get paid more, more drivers come online! Why can't we understand this. The only way for all of us to make more money is not increase pay, but get rid of driver competition. If drivers would stop working for peanuts, then the rest of us who make a dollar a mile and have paid off cars and get good gas mileage may squeak out a better profit. All you money losing projects need to improve your math or find a job, almost any job that pays better than Uber. 

Uber is purely a side gig. Extra income. It beats zero. A lot of people don't care how much they make in an hour. These are the people you are competing with. 
There are a few that do math and make this a full time thing. But really 60 hours in a car so you can live in studio a living?

Most credit card companies take advantage of their consumers. But there are those like me who pay off the balance every month, never pay interest and get a check for $500 a year. It can be done, but in the end of the day, credit card companies are not our friend and is only interested in making money. Taking your money. 

Harsh reality, but such is life. Uber is just another cog in the silly wheel of life.


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## luckytown (Feb 11, 2016)

Driveroptimization said:


> As a driver in the Atlanta, GA area, I personally completed more than 2,000 rides combined on both Uber and Lyft platforms and in the process I had systematically collected and analyzed those rides in terms of unloaded miles and wait times. What I found was that I had to work long hours - on average, more than 11 hours per day and drive lots of miles, approximately 280 miles per day to consistently earn about $100 for the day. The starling aspect of this was that about 50% of the miles I drove were unpaid for (meaning I had no rider in the car) and approximately 50% of the time I was waiting for a rider, and thus my waiting time was not paid for.
> 
> This revelation led me to conclude that the business model used by Uber & Lyft is still very inefficient and a large part of this inefficiency was due to the fact that drivers are underpaid, and therefore they drive less hours than they might have driven if they were paid better. Additionally, I believe that both Uber and Lyft have too many drivers in any one area, and therefore each driver is underutilized.
> 
> ...


Uber is the pioneer in rideshare. Like many other industries the pioneers are not the ones that always make it. Its the ones that come in later and improve the market or the product...In this case i think lyft is positioning themselves to be the contenders. The improvement must come in the appreciation and the treatment of the drivers...who ever can figure this out will dominate....If you cannot charge the customers more... than the funds must come from somewhere. Maybe the rideshare must take a lesser share and make it up by volume. Also the optional tip feature will sway some good professional drivers that go the extra mile...they know how to compell customers to consider tipping.....Also some big investors are going to Lyft...I think the drivers are going to be in demand and the ones that can attract the talent will succeed.....right now is not that time....but is coming...


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

luckytown said:


> ...right now is not that time....but is coming...


or it has passed...


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## luckytown (Feb 11, 2016)

Cableguynoe said:


> or it has passed...


Maybe....but investors like the model and will pay to have someone figure out the market....someone other than Kalanick


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Driveroptimization said:


> As a driver in the Atlanta, GA area, I personally completed more than 2,000 rides combined on both Uber and Lyft platforms and in the process I had systematically collected and analyzed those rides in terms of unloaded miles and wait times. What I found was that I had to work long hours - on average, more than 11 hours per day and drive lots of miles, approximately 280 miles per day to consistently earn about $100 for the day. The starling aspect of this was that about 50% of the miles I drove were unpaid for (meaning I had no rider in the car) and approximately 50% of the time I was waiting for a rider, and thus my waiting time was not paid for.
> 
> This revelation led me to conclude that the business model used by Uber & Lyft is still very inefficient and a large part of this inefficiency was due to the fact that drivers are underpaid, and therefore they drive less hours than they might have driven if they were paid better. Additionally, I believe that both Uber and Lyft have too many drivers in any one area, and therefore each driver is underutilized.
> 
> ...


You don't need a survey. The only problem with all the TNC's is that they have extremely low rates. In most cases as low as 1/3 the rate of traditional transportation in their respected market. 
Your 280 miles of driving to make $100 in revenue is horrific. Even at $.75/mile you should never have more than 200 miles. With traditional taxi rates and an equal ratio of "dead" miles to paid miles that 280 miles you drive should easily generate you $300. 
Just as the crossing guard told Micheal Keaton in the movie Mr. Mom, "you're doing it wrong".


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Driveroptimization said:


> As a driver in the Atlanta, GA area, I personally completed more than 2,000 rides combined on both Uber and Lyft platforms and in the process I had systematically collected and analyzed those rides in terms of unloaded miles and wait times. What I found was that I had to work long hours - on average, more than 11 hours per day and drive lots of miles, approximately 280 miles per day to consistently earn about $100 for the day. The starling aspect of this was that about 50% of the miles I drove were unpaid for (meaning I had no rider in the car) and approximately 50% of the time I was waiting for a rider, and thus my waiting time was not paid for.
> 
> This revelation led me to conclude that the business model used by Uber & Lyft is still very inefficient and a large part of this inefficiency was due to the fact that drivers are underpaid, and therefore they drive less hours than they might have driven if they were paid better. Additionally, I believe that both Uber and Lyft have too many drivers in any one area, and therefore each driver is underutilized.
> 
> ...


You don't need a survey. The only problem with all the TNC's is that they have extremely low rates. In most cases as low as 1/3 the rate of traditional transportation in their respected market. 
Your 280 miles of driving to make $100 in revenue is horrific. Even at $.75/mile you should never have more than 200 miles. With traditional taxi rates and an equal ratio of "dead" miles to paid miles that 280 miles you drive should easily generate you $300.


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## uberebu (Jan 13, 2017)

Let's not forget that they don't need us. Self driving vehicles are already way safer than any human could ever be. Uber/Lyft doesn't have to do anything other than keep demand met.

Active drivers will never be a threat to their business model. If you look online you will find documents where they tell investors that driver supply isn't even something they think about. And the money is better spent on new drivers.

Our only competition is ourselves. The consumers(pax) have choices. We don't. Pax are Uber's customers. Uber is our customer. 

Uber's business model isn't broken. We are looking in the wrong place for money if we think fares should be raised. Where there once existed a parity in the technology there is now unity and it's humming along on all 12 German cylinders.

It is kinda shady though the way they still advertise 35 an hour. Who wouldn't wanna do that with a free car? 

Next...UberDorms for Driver Partners. Sleep for a buck an hour and lease out your whip to a desperate ant for $10 cash for the hour.


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

uberebu said:


> \
> Next...UberDorms for Driver Partners. Sleep for a buck an hour and lease out your whip to a desperate ant for $10 cash for the hour.


You don't need a dorm, you have a car to sleep in..


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## Driveroptimization (May 27, 2017)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> You don't need a survey. The only problem with all the TNC's is that they have extremely low rates. In most cases as low as 1/3 the rate of traditional transportation in their respected market.
> Your 280 miles of driving to make $100 in revenue is horrific. Even at $.75/mile you should never have more than 200 miles. With traditional taxi rates and an equal ratio of "dead" miles to paid miles that 280 miles you drive should easily generate you $300.
> Just as the crossing guard told Micheal Keaton in the movie Mr. Mom, "you're doing it wrong".


You may think one doesn't need a survey, and you may have a point, but providing scientific evidence based on statically analysis and validation may or may not support what your intuition may have lead you to believe. The idea that one person may find a better way than the normal person may have, may only show you as an outlier to the fact. Survey does help to get us to the fact and identify outliers.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Driveroptimization said:


> You may think one doesn't need a survey, and you may have a point, but providing scientific evidence based on statically analysis and validation may or may not support what your intuition may have lead you to believe. The idea that one person may find a better way than the normal person may have, may only show you as an outlier to the fact. Survey does help to get us to the fact and identify outliers.


Ok, but the only findings of the survey will be that Uber convinced over 600k U.S. Drivers that they can "make great money, be their own boss and work when they want to" when they drive their own vehicles for pennies a mile. I guess the survey will prove another point. That there are many out there that are extremely ignorant and naive enough to believe everything they read on the Internet.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

Driveroptimization said:


> So would it be a fair statement to say that drivers would choose to work longer hours and stay longer in the system as drivers, if the compensation was greater?


Isn't that sorta obvious? But how can Uber drivers complain about the low pay after spending so much time yelling how expensive cabs are? Uber was supposed to be something you do *part-time* on your way to and home from work, not as a steady job.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Driveroptimization said:


> You may think one doesn't need a survey, and you may have a point, but providing scientific evidence based on statically analysis and validation may or may not support what your intuition may have lead you to believe. The idea that one person may find a better way than the normal person may have, may only show you as an outlier to the fact. Survey does help to get us to the fact and identify outliers.


I completed the survey. The analysis would be statistically relevant only if the sample is representative of the population of drivers. Being a member of this forum probably skews the results toward the more knowledgeable side. But some data is better than no data.

Mr. zx3 suggests a way to drive that will eliminate the variable expenses (gas, depreciation, maintenance, etc.). Give rides only going toward your destination (work, home, errands, music festivals, etc.). Rough calculations show a 50% increase in rate by driving this way. Of course, it will limit you to a couple of rides a day. Full timers need not apply.

If you drive full time and depend on the income to survive, it could be tough. As long as Uber has enough drivers to meet the demand, rates to drivers will not increase. If there is a surplus of drivers, expect a rate decrease. If there are not enough drivers, Uber will recruit more. When the recruits run out, they may increase the rate to the driver. But as the drivers income increases, more drivers will come online. And the cycle repeats. Driver rates depend on the supply of drivers and the demand for the drivers. As long as there are a sufficient number of drivers willing to work for peanuts, they will only receive peanuts.

There will always be drivers willing to work for peanuts. Just lost a job or had schedule cut, students wanting a few bucks, unexpected expenses, bored people, etc., are all valid reasons to drive more than part time. Doing it as a career at $0.675 (here in Las Vegas) per mile should be questioned.


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## Steve2967 (Jun 14, 2017)

Driveroptimization said:


> So the response here on the subject varies from (a) no, Uber/Lyft pay structure is not fine, (b) It's ok only if I drive a few hours for other reasons other than to get a sufficiently good compensation (c) yes the Uber/Lyft pay structure is good and that the only change needed is that foolish people should get out and leave those who have learned to work the system to achieve better compensation.
> 
> Given the wide variation, may I ask each of you two things (1) to please complete the survey found here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/researchondrivers. (2) Please encourage others to take the survey. What this survey will do, is to help provide scientific basis to provide sound data on the subject.


Okay but you said you are doing something meaningful. What are you doing with the results of the survey? Gathering data for no purpose?


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