# Pax and Cameras



## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

So I kicked my first passenger out this morning on Lyft. 

When she got in the car my luxury vehicle wash freshly washed and spot free on the inside. I was freshly dressed but no makeup as it was early morning and I just showered after a run. 

I'm going about my business driving in traffic, not speeding. There is an accident ahead so when I look back to change lanes to get off I discover the passenger is staring at me and pointing her phone at me with a blank face. I look her in the eyes and she doesn't look away. I'm basically just like whatever but when she doesn't get a reaction out of me she tells me to get back on the freeway to which I advise her there's an accident ahead and there is no traffic in the other bridge. She's like I don't care. 

At this point I realize something is definitely up and she is either purposely f&cking with me or just crazy and going to give me a bad rating. She tells me her drop point entered isn't actually where she wants to go. I remain calm but I really don't like being filmed so no I want her out of my car. 

I drive her to a hotel where the staff knows my car as it was somewhere she can quickly get another ride and I can get help invade she really is a crazy person and not just messing with me for fun and the chance to post something on YouTube. When she had the camera running she kept asking me why I'm kicking her out of my car and why I won't take her to her drop point (mind you not the one she entered into the app). 

I reported the incident as I'm sure did she and now I'm left wondering if my personal liability provides any coverage I case I have to sue her if she edits the video to misrepresent things.


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## McLovin (Dec 7, 2015)

Lnsky said:


> So I kicked my first passenger out this morning on Lyft.
> 
> When she got in the car my luxury vehicle wash freshly washed and spot free on the inside. I was freshly dressed but no makeup as it was early morning and I just showered after a run.
> 
> ...


I would have taken my phone and start recording her recording me for a showdown on who's battery lasts the longest!


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

McLovin said:


> I would have taken my phone and start recording her recording me for a showdown on who's battery lasts the longest!


Dude I just was not in the mood for it at all this morning. I don't even have a Facebook account because for my actual career it is important not to have a presence in the web. So someone getting into my car early in the morning and videoing me just to see if they can get a reaction because Lyft is giving out 50% off fares after a 10% rate cut just isn't something I was interested in being a part of.

She was all I'm going to have a little conversation with Lyft about this. Duh


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## Darrell (Dec 27, 2015)

Me: Is there any reason you are recording me ma'am?

Her: No response

Me: I would just like to say on record that I do not consent to you recording me and any published videos of me without my consent shall be followed by a response from my lawyer.

Hits end trip, pulls over to first gas station. Please exit my vehicle my ma'am

Her: Why are you ending the trip?

Me: Please exit my vehicle ma'am or I will notify the authorities

She exits, I pulls off slowly making sure I follow all traffic laws for I know she is still recording. Logs off the system, go 2 blocks out of her view, immediately contact Lyft before she does. If the driver makes the complaint before the pax, he "might" have some sort of leg to stand on.


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

Here's my response from Lyft on the passenger incident that I just received:

"Thanks for taking the time to give us feedback about this ride. It can certainly alarming and distracting to be filmed while driving. We commend how you handled the situation while keeping cool.

As you may have been rated unfairly by this passenger, we've gone ahead and excluded her rating from your overall star ratings. This ride will no longer affect your driver stats negatively.

Overall, I see that your rides look great, there will always be a few 'hard to deal with passengers', but I wouldn't worry about those. If you ever feel that a passenger may rate you poorly due to something out of your control, we strongly suggest using the 'Comments' section as well! After each ride, you can note anything important about the ride and/or passenger. Then let us know about it. That way, we can review your side of the story and take action if necessary.

Please let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Have a nice day!"

------

I'm pleased by the response because I know they took the time to look into it and I know for a fact that she called them as she was in the phone with them while I was driving away. I really don't want to kick anyone out of my car. Even the bad ones. 

But some passengers think it is illegal for us to decline giving them a ride because of behavior they are exhibiting or verbal abuse before the ride even begins. Getting into my personal vehicle and filming me without consent or as proof of an incident is where I have decided to draw a line. 

I know some drivers keep a camera going at all times. If you are such driver I do think you have the obligation to let them know as soon as they get in and the choice is theirs to make. If she would have told me she was filming and why I may have been fine with it assuming she tells me where it will be used. Somehow for me it is worse than someone filming you on he streets. It's my private vehicle and I know it becomes a shared space as soon as someone else gets in but there are still certain courtesies people extend to one another. Ex: do you mind if I eat in your freshly detailed new car.


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## McLovin (Dec 7, 2015)

Kudos to Lyft support. No way would the pax rating get removed by Uber.


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## UberXCali (Jan 30, 2016)

Darrell said:


> Me: Is there any reason you are recording me ma'am?
> 
> Her: No response
> 
> ...


One up it, record her while you say that. The car, as long as you own it, is your private property therefore you can record in it but she cannot.


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## Darrell (Dec 27, 2015)

Lnsky said:


> Here's my response from Lyft on the passenger incident that I just received:
> 
> "Thanks for taking the time to give us feedback about this ride. It can certainly alarming and distracting to be filmed while driving. We commend how you handled the situation while keeping cool.
> 
> ...


I've complained to Uber about a pax putting his stuff in my car and asking me to wait while he runs back into the bar to say bye to friends. At that point I start trip because your stuff is in my car. Guy comes back out, takes his stuff out my car, doesn't say a word, and walks off with his friends. (Apparently they offered to take him home). We never moved so I ended trip and sent Uber an email asking the trip be canceled out and explained the reason why. They give me the cancellation pay but my rating drops immediately. I send email stating that even though the trip was "canceled" out, the guy still was able to rate me a 1 star, mad about that whole $ 5 he was charged for wasting my time. They reply that they are unable to disclose a rating a pax gave me and that 1 rating shouldn't affect my over all rating.....blah blah blah.

Need to sign up for Lyft, the fact that they are willing to delete a rating under just causes makes me say SCREW UBER.


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## dirtnaprightnow (Sep 24, 2015)

Ok. Here's the real scoop. You own the car so you have an expectation of privacy as if it is your home. The rider is an invited guest in your "home". You have the right to expect a certain type of behavior and this Pax did not meet the standards you expected. Bounce away. 

On the other hand the Pax is in your car and has no expectation of privacy. Fire up the dash cam. 

MN is a one party consent for recording so you can record away but you can prohibit anyone else, in you "home" / car. No notification is necessary. If they dont want to be recorded show them the door.

When asked, I tell Pax it is for safety. Theirs, mine, and the driving public. It also prevents false injury claims (watch YOUTUBE) Dash Cam Follies). 

I found a great dash cam that works just as I want.


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

UberXCali said:


> One up it, record her while you say that. The car, as long as you own it, is your private property therefore you can record in it but she cannot.


I'm not above recording in my car if things begin to go sideways. I mean you have to especially male drivers carrying a very drunk girl. I would turn it on but I keep my phone by the speedometer so it would mainly just be audio and my face. This way if someone assaults me or causes property damage it is good proof. I would use it only for that for the ride service and police.

But yeah you are already at a disadvantage when someone is sitting behind you so you can't see the attack coming. Drunk women are crazy they scare me the worst.


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

UberXCali said:


> One up it, record her while you say that. The car, as long as you own it, is your private property therefore you can record in it but she cannot.


Unfortunately our CA legislators have made a requirement that we must post in a prominent visible location that we are recording the interior of our vehicles. The Taco Bell manager is now suing the Uber driver he attacked for a violation of that law.


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## UberXCali (Jan 30, 2016)

Beur said:


> Unfortunately our CA legislators have made a requirement that we must post in a prominent visible location that we are recording the interior of our vehicles. The Taco Bell manager is now suing the Uber driver he attacked for a violation of that law.


When was this legislator made?


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## dirtnaprightnow (Sep 24, 2015)

Lnsky said:


> I'm not above recording in my car if things begin to go sideways. I mean you have to especially male drivers carrying a very drunk girl. I would turn it on but I keep my phone by the speedometer so it would mainly just be audio and my face. This way if someone assaults me or causes property damage it is good proof. I would use it only for that for the ride service and police.
> 
> But yeah you are already at a disadvantage when someone is sitting behind you so you can't see the attack coming. Drunk women are crazy they scare me the worst.


When one of my Pax starts acting up I say "Smile, You're on Candid Camera" . Works better than pepper spray and doesn't stain the seats.


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

dirtnaprightnow said:


> Ok. Here's the real scoop. You own the car so you have an expectation of privacy as if it is your home. The rider is an invited guest in your "home". You have the right to expect a certain type of behavior and this Pax did not meet the standards you expected. Bounce away.
> 
> On the other hand the Pax is in your car and has no expectation of privacy. Fire up the dash cam.
> 
> ...


Yeah as a pax I'm fine with that. It is within plain view it isn't a hidden camera or anything and I would hope a driver wouldn't post me as a drunk pax on YouTube for the fun of it because I was saying something silly and they compiled a playlist of drunk pax to make fun of.

Obviously if I do something that breaks the user agreement or is out of line all bets are off and that's on me. I would never do hat to a passenger though, the YouTube thing. It is a life ruiner for someone you knew for all of ten minutes.

But again with this one pax and some others it does once again come down to- I apologize but this is my car and I'm not going to do in it/ to it what you just requested. This includes squeezing through ally ways in my luxury sedan that my or may not be wide enough to accommodate.

It also politely includes canceling a ride at my loss mid-route if we can't agree on a path. Ex: I just told you there is a fatal car accident ahead on the freeway and 4 lanes are closed therefore I am now diverting to the next bridge into downtown which one app verifies is the fastest, Google indicates it is clear and I have also visually confirmed on my way to pick you up.

This rarely happens but I've had two people out of 600 continue to argue and insist I'm either wrong, stupid or running up the meter. Honestly at that point the best I can do is drop them at a hotel or gas station at is go by. I'm not sitting in my car on a freeway that is pretty much closed for an hour or more. This has only happened when they are sitting in the back with headphones watching videos and not paying attention then they get pissed about the traffic and talk over me and refuse to hear anything. One of the people that did this had lived in my city for two months and wouldn't take my advice. Most passengers are not like this. It's the behavior of a crazy person and then they tell you you're not allowed to do that when you politely tell them you are dropping them at a safe place where they can get a ride in less than two minutes.

"I would like to take you to your destination but unfortunately you aren't allowing me the option to do so." Best of luck have a good day.


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

UberXCali said:


> When was this legislator made?


I have no idea, first I heard about it was when I read the article about him suing.

I do know CA is a two party state when it comes to audio recording of conversations. However, that two party consent goes out the window when your in a public place, the courts have ruled there is no expectation of privacy while in public. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. My dash cam records audio, if I need to I'll flip it around to record video inside which I have done to calm some A-holes down.


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## CityGirl (Nov 29, 2014)

I don't believe it to be an illegal recording, as TX is a one party state http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/texas-recording-law ...however, once you discover it you don't have to consent to it (i.e. you can end the trip as you did). And I'm not sure if she can publish or broadcast that video without your consent. If it pops up, certainly have an attorney write her a nastygram. Inside your personal car is not a public place, you would have (in CA) an expectation of privacy that any conversation you have is not being recorded without your consent. Being filmed from outside the car is inevitable because it is a public place.


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## CityGirl (Nov 29, 2014)

UberXCali said:


> When was this legislator made?


It's not that it's a requirement to have a sign, it's that CA is a 2-party consent state http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-recording-law which means that all parties must consent to the recording. Posting a sign gets their tacit agreement (because if they don't agree, they can leave your car).


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

Beur said:


> Unfortunately our CA legislators have made a requirement that we must post in a prominent visible location that we are recording the interior of our vehicles. The Taco Bell manager is now suing the Uber driver he attacked for a violation of that law.


Well this is what I will say to that. I understand the law, it does make sense but Uber needs to be educated its contractors of this at on boarding. Further there is zero chance that the lawyer didn't name Uber in the suit.

The driver will also be named in the suit BUT Uber's GL policy has a blanket additional insured endorsement known as a CG 20 33 AI endorsement as per any contractual obligation. Therefore they have a duty to defend the indep contractor until they can back out of it by lack of contractual requirement in place or until they can prove the grounds for suit isn't covered under the policy.

Uber's insurance carrier is out of Virginia by the name of James River Insurance Co. They are a good company by they have freedom of form meaning they can exclude whatever they want and I'm positive they are exclusively assault and battery. Also Uber's only coverage for the transportation exposure part of their business is a hired and non owned rider endorsement.

A copy of Uber's policy is available on their website. If you are doing this as a main source of income or have assets to protect a highly advise you print it and find a very good independent insurance agent with experience in what is known as "Excess and Surplus Lines" Insurance and experience on commercial auto aka Transportation exposures.

There are very few agencies in the United States with the staff, markets and knowledge base to appropriately insure Uber drivers and protect your assets. Marsh insures Uber and you can approach them about being your broker but I'm 95% sure it is a conflict of interest.

Others you may try are Willis (insurance brokers that the old Sears Tower is now called the Willis Tower for as they are the anchor tenant), Gallagher... And a few others. Hey may turn you down but ask if they know of anyone else who can help. This is honestly something Uber should already be advising their contractors of. Construction General Contractors all tell their subs where to go to get the right insurance.

As for the Mr. Taco Bell assailant... I see his damages limited to only those related to social media sharing of the video on YouTube and other sources. THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING TO EVERYONE HERE (and other places).

It is a matter of if not when someone posting things on YouTube of other people without consent and gaining monetary compensation when it goes viral is going to get sued big time. It isn't even an issue of if you had the right to film when money gets involved. Like it or not they have a right to compensation if it gets 16 million hits of them beating the crap out of you. You sue them for bodily injury and they sue you for some of the proceeds from the money you made off of he video that ruined their personal and professional life.

At best for you they get a portion of the Youtube cash and lawyer costs. At worst they can sue you for further PUNITIVE DAMAGES that are excluded under insurance policies in 48 states. If you edit or misrepresent the actual footage to make a meme or something the person on camera may receive punitive damages.

MY ADVICE if you are attacked by Mr. Taco Bell report it to Uber, the police and get a lawyer as soon as business opens the next day. Do not post anything on YouTube. I would probably let the cops see the video but not have it until my attorney was present. It doesn't matter that you did nothing wrong.

You aren't an attorney and the situation that just took place is going to have long lasting consequences for at least one party involved.

It is scary to think of just how close I might have come to having a crazy person try to ruin my life. She kept demanding and repeating stuff in a voice one would only use on camera and was obviously fishing for a certain verbal response. As I ignored her questions they got more specific drilling down to what she wanted to hear.

I wouldn't answer why the trip was ending. After she started acting erraticly and I knew for a while she was filming I simply pulled off and informed her I wanted to find a safe place for to drop her off where I knew she would be well looked after and could quickly get another ride so I was dropping her at X (a 5 star hotel where I know the staff and rides wait). I never said a rude comment or got upset. I even sincerely told her to take care and have a nice day. I could have dropped her at several gas stations we passed or a coffee shop or lunch place but I wanted to make sure I wasn't mistreating her or leaving her in harms way. For my sake and hers.

As a driver, though I'm very new to this and don't do it full time, I made a map of places in my area as drop points for various situations... Including the ER. 

Honestly the main reason I like driving and started driving was to get people where they couldn't be it somewhere because they were drunk and being responsible, or because their car is in the shop or because they are sick. I love driving these people!!!

The people I don't so much like driving are the rude ones that are taking it because they didn't want to have to walk form a parking garage to the front door downtown and treat you and your car poorly. Hey- I'm lazy sometimes. I take Lyft for front door service downtown or to ACL but I treat my driver just as I would treat my friends that used to drop me at work or a festival except I tip! 

I'm not a cab driver. I'm a person your age with an equal or better job that isn't driving because I'm desperate for money. Bad riders are a way bigger factor to me stopping than fare cuts. Fare cuts are only an issue because it brings on worse riders.


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

UberXCali said:


> When was this legislator made?


It doesn't matter legislation or not. I'd find a way to casually include that you have a dash cam in your welcome to my car intro as they get in and before putting the car in drive.

If the pax gets upset about it cancel the trip and be glad you avoided a nightmare in the road. Some may question you about why or what you use it for but be okay with it if you briefly just tell them for insurance purposes or whatever. If they aren't planning on being a problem they won't care.

According to Uber reps I speak to when new drivers ask about seat belt which are required by law they say it is your car. The new drivers ask but yeah will they rate me bad and Uber again skirts the question saying it is your car and you are in control of that decision. Subject to state laws so goes the camera but you are an independent contractor and your personal insurance most likely isn't going to defend you in a suit related to video even if you bought the GAP insurance.


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

Beur said:


> I have no idea, first I heard about it was when I read the article about him suing.
> 
> I do know CA is a two party state when it comes to audio recording of conversations. However, that two party consent goes out the window when your in a public place, the courts have ruled there is no expectation of privacy while in public. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. My dash cam records audio, if I need to I'll flip it around to record video inside which I have done to calm some A-holes down.


Please report anything you hear. This is brand new territory for liability suits and insurance companies really don't know how to handle it. Unfortunately we only learn some things through precedent. I'm afraid it is drivers that have the most to lose as none carry commercial policies or set up seperate LLC's. They'll find a way to insure this kind of thing eventually but as of right now you are eager exposed.


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## EbonyX (Dec 30, 2015)

Lnsky said:


> You sue them for bodily injury and they sue you for some of the proceeds from the money you made off of he video that ruined their personal and professional life.


That's absurd! He should have been in his best behavior regardless of the presence of a camera. I believe that Taco bell executive knew he was going to assault the driver before he even arrived.


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

Lnsky said:


> Getting into my personal vehicle and filming me without consent or as proof of an incident is where I have decided to draw a line.


Actually, Texas is a 1 party consent state (http://www.rcfp.org/reporters-recording-guide/state-state-guide/texas) ... she does not need to get your consent to record you.


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

CityGirl said:


> I don't believe it to be an illegal recording, as TX is a one party state http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/texas-recording-law ...however, once you discover it you don't have to consent to it (i.e. you can end the trip as you did). And I'm not sure if she can publish or broadcast that video without your consent. If it pops up, certainly have an attorney write her a nastygram. Inside your personal car is not a public place, you would have (in CA) an expectation of privacy that any conversation you have is not being recorded without your consent. Being filmed from outside the car is inevitable because it is a public place.


Texas is a one party state but that really doesn't provide much. I'm more worried about personal injury than suing for the damages. If I'm not misrepresented it is embarrassing at best. I've been having allergies and my boyfriend is out of town. So when my stuffy nose woke me at 5am that morning I showered, dressed in my yoga clothes and drove some people around waiting for my allergy mess to kick in. I still get ID'ed without makeup on all the time but being part of some YouTube meme would be horrible. The damage would already be done. Even if it was just me sneezing into a tissue or something.

It just really made me rethink if I'm making a big mistake. For me it is like playing a video game but also more interesting because of the people I pick up. I only drive for 2 hours or more if I'm making really good fare and bored. I make $200 in 3 or 4 hours driving peolne to the airport early mornings if I can't do yoga. They tip well, I drive a luxury vehicle and honestly about 10-15% of the time I either know someone that can help them with something or they know someone that can help me with something I need a consultant on for a business deal.

My boyfriend has had two interviews and two job offers from guys that run tech start ups who rode in my car for 20 minute rides. He has a job he isn't ready to leave just yet and all I do is mention he education and work background and the guys shove their cards at me saying they'll hire him even though he isn't looking.

I'm so long winded. My point is none of us are stupid and most of us aren't doing this long term or for money. Just make sure you are protecting yourself from the bottom barrel riders and drivers that ruin it for everyone else.

I don't drive looking for clients or business relations. I work in specialized insurance and I don't deal with the public but I do need a lot of expert knowledge on certain industrial trades or goods I insure and I have a lot of tech guys give me contacts to a person they know hair deals with that stuff that I then pass off to someone else as I don't do tech.

Sometimes I just pick up tourists and give them the low down in what they are looking for and what to avoid. It's fun! I enjoy it. I just don't want to see the whole situation slip into a taxi cab relationship. We're friendly in Texas and we like to take care of our guests and newcomers. I've lived and been a guest in other countries and it can be lonely so I always make people feel welcomed.

In Austin it's been slipping and I just really don't want to see that. I understand drivers are upset but until recently we've really been able to keep it casual and friendly. It's an issue of mutual trust and honestly it is Uber's obligation to protect that as they are the only one who oversees user relationships.

I really just feel they have lost sight of the platform since going public. They have to reasonably keep drivers and passengers happy not just the investors. They're running their service like they are an airline but honestly what they do is nothing special. They have market share... For now. That is all.


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

EbonyX said:


> That's absurd! He should have been in his best behavior regardless of the presence of a camera. I believe that Taco bell executive knew he was going to assault the driver before he even arrived.


Your misunderstanding what I am saying and that is understandable. I'm not talking about fair or unfair and I'm speaking with ten years of background in legal liability though not in the state of California and the ride shares are u chartered waters for everyone as is YouTube.

What I'm saying is the assault and the drivers repost of the assault footage on YouTube which he received monetary compensation for once it went viral or two different legal issues. The TB guy will face criminal charges for the assault and even when he is persecuted he can still come back with a civil suit against the guy that posted the video on YouTube for monetary gains. Honestly for me it doesn't matter if it said the guy was being recorded or not it is that the driver posted it on YouTube and got money from that and also further injured the rider publicly in something he may not have had the legal authority to publish. It's a personal injury suit.

Record and upload wisely.


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

CityGirl said:


> I don't believe it to be an illegal recording, as TX is a one party state http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/texas-recording-law ...however, once you discover it you don't have to consent to it (i.e. you can end the trip as you did). And I'm not sure if she can publish or broadcast that video without your consent. If it pops up, certainly have an attorney write her a nastygram. Inside your personal car is not a public place, you would have (in CA) an expectation of privacy that any conversation you have is not being recorded without your consent. Being filmed from outside the car is inevitable because it is a public place.


Correct ... TX is 1 party state and pax cannot use the video for anything criminal...


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

Ziggy said:


> Actually, Texas is a 1 party consent state (http://www.rcfp.org/reporters-recording-guide/state-state-guide/texas) ... she does not need to get your consent to record you.


I never she said needed my legal consent to record me. Though as others have mentioned it is a somewhat jerky area since she is in my vehicle. I don't agree with that under Texas law. As I stated in my original post my concern for personal injury comes with once it is posted in an altered state on YouTube. We have that 19 yo here that goes to various parking lots and films people coming out of target standing 5 ft from them and saying nothing. He just waits for them to lose it then posts a compilation.

Honestly no make up with my hair up and whatever, if she wants to post the whole interaction, good times. I thought she was watching a video most the ride. Once I realized what she was doing I ignored it. But then she began to make odd route requests and demand we stay on I-35 despite the fact we could see the accident and she was going to Congress which was completely clear. She recorded me for 15 minutes and we only spoken for 3. I pulled off onto Rainey and dropped her at Van Zandt where I know a lot of the attendants for my safety and for hers. Mine incase she got destructive and hers because I knew they would care for her and she'd have a ride in minutes. I told her on tape I was taking her to a safe location where she would quickly have another ride and help if she needed it. Then to have a nice day. She kept saying 'so you aren't taking me to X destination in a phony voice'. Luckily for me X destination wasn't even the one she entered into the app.

I've heard of passengers pressing kidnapping allegations because a driver deviated from route to follow the map. She Told me I couldn't take Riverside I wold just have to sit through the traffic until I dropped her downtown I just immediately thought I can't have this girl tapping me in the back of my car for an hour and I also can't say anything as it can be edited.

I didn't see any other choice. I'm not going to be held hostage in my car by a crazy with a camera who is paying for 10% lowered fare with a 50% off on top of that until the end of the month.

If she was willing to sit on I-35 indefinitely I can't assume she's in a hurry and Van Zandt is a comfy place to rest your heels for two minutes. It just makes me feel like a mean cab driver having to end someone's trip like that.


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## D Town (Apr 8, 2015)

dirtnaprightnow said:


> Ok. Here's the real scoop. You own the car so you have an expectation of privacy as if it is your home. The rider is an invited guest in your "home". You have the right to expect a certain type of behavior and this Pax did not meet the standards you expected. Bounce away.
> 
> On the other hand the Pax is in your car and has no expectation of privacy. Fire up the dash cam.
> 
> ...


This thread got long so I don't know if this was addressed but when you're using your vehicle for commercial purposes such as this it is considered public transportation. The expectation of privacy goes out the window. Unless it is a two party consent state there is nothing illegal about her recording you. This is the exact same principle that protects a driver who uses a dash camera to record the interior of their car - as I did. The driver was WELL within her right to refuse to continue the trip and the sketchy way the pax was acting would have prompted me to end it as well. That being said, unless she was in a two party consent state legally she has no leg to stand on.


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

D Town said:


> This thread got long so I don't know if this was addressed but when you're using your vehicle for commercial purposes such as this it is considered public transportation. The expectation of privacy goes out the window. Unless it is a two party consent state there is nothing illegal about her recording you. This is the exact same principle that protects a driver who uses a dash camera to record the interior of their car - as I did. The driver was WELL within her right to refuse to continue the trip and the sketchy way the pax was acting would have prompted me to end it as well. That being said, unless she was in a two party consent state legally she has no leg to stand on.


You're absolutely correct and there's question whether the 2 party consent applies to video. As it's currently written in California it only applies to audio as it was explained to me by an attorney. With live broadcast apps like Periscope the area of video & consent has become much more gray.


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## CityGirl (Nov 29, 2014)

D Town said:


> This thread got long so I don't know if this was addressed but when you're using your vehicle for commercial purposes such as this it is considered public transportation. The expectation of privacy goes out the window. Unless it is a two party consent state there is nothing illegal about her recording you. This is the exact same principle that protects a driver who uses a dash camera to record the interior of their car - as I did. The driver was WELL within her right to refuse to continue the trip and the sketchy way the pax was acting would have prompted me to end it as well. That being said, unless she was in a two party consent state legally she has no leg to stand on.


Hey, this is a really good point, and if that's what the courts have decided, it's great for us as well as for the driver in the Taco Bell case. Even in a two party state, the expectation of privacy does not exist in a public place. If a commercial trip is deemed a public place, the recording is allowed.


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## CityGirl (Nov 29, 2014)

Beur said:


> You absolutely correct and there's question whether the 2 party consent applies to video. As it's currently written in California it only applies to audio as it was explained to me by an attorney. With live broadcast apps like Periscope the area of video & consent has become much more gray.


Another point about the Taco Bell case. He did record audio but the video can stand alone for evidence of what happened. However, as above, if the commercial ride is a public place under the law, all bets are off, record away!


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

CityGirl said:


> Another point about the Taco Bell case. He did record audio but the video can stand alone for evidence of what happened. However, as above, if the commercial ride is a public place under the law, all bets are off, record away!


People usually ask about the dash cam. I tell them it's an insurance requirement and that it records all audio inside the car and video outside, but if need be I can flip it around to record the activity inside the car.


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## CityGirl (Nov 29, 2014)

Beur said:


> People usually ask about the dash cam. I tell them it's an insurance requirement and that it records all audio inside the car and video outside, but if need be I can flip it around to record the activity inside the car.


Are you in CA? If they see it and are aware of it, that may be enough to satisfy the 2 party consent.


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

CityGirl said:


> Are you in CA? If they see it and are aware of it, that may be enough to satisfy the 2 party consent.


Yes out in Palm Springs.


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## dirtnaprightnow (Sep 24, 2015)

In all the time I have had a dash cam, I have had 2 Pax ask any questions. One was a young college student - gave him the legal definition and usage. 

The other was a conversation about privacy. Ask what I would do if a Pax didn't like being recorded, I responded my letting this Pax know the rules. We play by my rules. Why? Its my car. If they still have a problem, I show them the door. He was just curious, not a problem.


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## D Town (Apr 8, 2015)

dirtnaprightnow said:


> In all the time I have had a dash cam, I have had 2 Pax ask any questions. One was a young college student - gave him the legal definition and usage.
> 
> The other was a conversation about privacy. Ask what I would do if a Pax didn't like being recorded, I responded my letting this Pax know the rules. We play by my rules. Why? Its my car. If they still have a problem, I show them the door. He was just curious, not a problem.


I had a couple of folks ask about my camera though none got out of the car. We are recorded in 95% of the businesses we step into and every government building. It seems beyond silly to be shocked or upset or expect the rules to suddenly change when you're recorded in an Uber when you don't bat an eye when you're recorded pretty much everywhere else.


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

dirtnaprightnow said:


> In all the time I have had a dash cam, I have had 2 Pax ask any questions. One was a young college student - gave him the legal definition and usage.
> 
> The other was a conversation about privacy. Ask what I would do if a Pax didn't like being recorded, I responded my letting this Pax know the rules. We play by my rules. Why? Its my car. If they still have a problem, I show them the door. He was just curious, not a problem.


I mean yeah unfortunately I think more of us are being forced to have to draw lines. Not because any changes in behavior on our parts but because the lower rates mostly only attract more desperate new drivers and also discount fares draw in people that are used to only ever have taken a bus in the past.

Most riders ask me if they can eat on my car to be polite even if it is Starbursts or something. No one has ever tried to smoke in my car. But lately I've been gettin people that want to tell me which lane I can and can't drive in or to turn down ally's and other things I just won't do. This is when I have to politely tell them it is up to me to both insure the safety of myself and passengers as well as that of my personal automobile and that we won't be squeezing my car down an ally or precarious construction site.

Same with the cam I guess. These just aren't things one should have to explain to a normal human being. I don't drive Uber X anymore but Lyft has had a rash of bad riders because they are running a first ten rides $5 off and 10 rides at 50% off promotion this month. I've had several riders in pretty sure have never even taken a cab.


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

I


D Town said:


> I had a couple of folks ask about my camera though none got out of the car. We are recorded in 95% of the businesses we step into and every government building. It seems beyond silly to be shocked or upset or expect the rules to suddenly change when you're recorded in an Uber when you don't bat an eye when you're recorded pretty much everywhere else.


I agree. And a lot of citizens record cops as soon as they get pulled over which is slightly more provocative than the cop wearing a body cam. But by the time you are getting pulled over you know some kind of legality is about to go down.

I'm just trying to think of where the passenger may have been coming from to get in my car say nothing the whole ride recording me in the most ordinary ride. I have a high rating on both services so it isn't like I'm a problem driver and don't know it.

When I glanced back to check my blind spot and she just sat there expressionless starting me dead in the eye camera light and everything it was like wtf but whatever. My face didn't even change. That's when she started in.

Meh whatever new experience. I'd handle it the same way if it happened again. I didn't mistreat her or leave her high and dry but I also just couldn't complete the trip under those conditions so it was the right thing.


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## D Town (Apr 8, 2015)

Lnsky said:


> I
> 
> I agree. And a lot of citizens record cops as soon as they get pulled over which is slightly more provocative than the coo wearing a body cam. But by the time you are getting pulled over you know some kind of legality is about to go down.
> 
> ...


I record police encounters too. Had some encounters with some dirty Harry types but I just turn my dash camera a little. No need to shove anything in anyone's face. Its cya for all involved really. I'm a big advocate of body cameras. It keeps corrupt cops from abusing the citizenry and it keeps good cops butts out of the fire when their falsely accused. Departments that get them find their citizen complaints plummet. It seems a win for ALL involved.

That being said those who are confrontational about it and attempt to provoke a reaction with the camera deserve to have it shoved up their backside. You were 100% correct to end the ride.


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## Pashaster (Nov 3, 2015)

Get a dashcam


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## Lnsky (Jan 2, 2016)

D Town said:


> I record police encounters too. Had some encounters with some dirty Harry types but I just turn my dash camera a little. No need to shove anything in anyone's face. Its cya for all involved really. I'm a big advocate of body cameras. It keeps corrupt cops from abusing the citizenry and it keeps good cops butts out of the fire when their falsely accused. Departments that get them find their citizen complaints plummet. It seems a win for ALL involved.
> 
> That being said those who are confrontational about it and attempt to provoke a reaction with the camera deserve to have it shoved up their backside. You were 100% correct to end the ride.


Agreed on the cops and cameras things. It citizens use them they inform but when I see the video it does sometimes come off as escalating but it is warranted. Cops in Austin are just now getting body cams and that is sinful. I've seen cops clothesline a 105 lbs woman on 6th street for trying to cross the street over to her friends after they told her not to. They tackle jaywalkers.

I just find Uber's code of conduct to be incredibly lacking which is to be expected... Because thet want to distance themselves from any liability so rules would clamp them down.

But it's troubling as a rider and driver. I drove 20 trips this week and two were involved questionable incidents. Camera girl and then a guy I picked up in the middle of no where who spoke no English or Spanish and entered a false address into the GPS.

He pretended not to understand any of my questions on about the route or city he wanted to go to but used his broken English to hit on me for 35 minutes while I was driving 90 mph (legal limit on toll roads in Ausin). I get him home and he wouldn't get out of my car and wanted me to come in. This was 8am. I had no makeup on, messy bun and glasses with a lose top high necked thick sweater.

I've met last cab drivers. Guess what they have dispatch, actual insurance policies and a lot else on their sides. Uber doesn't even have a 1800 number for drivers. The more I learn about the company the more it just feels dirty.


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## D Town (Apr 8, 2015)

Lnsky said:


> Agreed on the cops and cameras things. It citizens use them they inform but when I see the video it does sometimes come off as escalating but it is warranted. Cops in Austin are just now getting body cams and that is sinful. I've seen cops clothesline a 105 lbs woman on 6th street for trying to cross the street over to her friends after they told her not to. They tackle jaywalkers.
> 
> I just find Uber's code of conduct to be incredibly lacking which is to be expected... Because thet want to distance themselves from any liability so rules would clamp them down.
> 
> ...


The main thing you REALLY need to know is that you're likely losing money working for them. That told me all I needed to know.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

Lnsky said:


> So I kicked my first passenger out this morning on Lyft.
> 
> When she got in the car my luxury vehicle wash freshly washed and spot free on the inside. I was freshly dressed but no makeup as it was early morning and I just showered after a run.
> 
> ...


You don't have a leg to stand on. You've allowed the public to enter your car and you're accepting payment as a commercial operator (even though you most likely are not).

Either stop crying like a little child or stop driving your "luxury" car as a cab.


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## D Town (Apr 8, 2015)

phillipzx3 said:


> You don't have a leg to stand on. You've allowed the public to enter your car and you're accepting payment as a commercial operator (even though you most likely are not).
> 
> Either stop crying like a little child or stop driving your "luxury" car as a cab.


What do you mean doesn't have a leg to stand on? You mean because she transports the public for cash she has to put up with whatever bull they dish out without complaint? If that's the case your argument would eliminate ever cab driver I've ever known and most well adjusted human beings. Don't troll.


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## UberPartnerDennis (Jun 21, 2015)

here is how I notify my customers here in California of a dashcam in use...one party consent state, I dont need to tell them this much but I do


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

UberPartnerDennis said:


> here is how I notify my customers here in California of a dashcam in use...one party consent state, I dont need to tell them this much but I do
> 
> View attachment 29182


California is a two party state.


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## UberPartnerDennis (Jun 21, 2015)

Beur said:


> California is a two party state.


beg to differ...its a one party state..provided they are in my car, a place where they have no reasonable expectation of privacy


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

UberPartnerDennis said:


> beg to differ...its a one party state..provided they are in my car, a place where they have no reasonable expectation of privacy


You can beg all you want, I suggest you use Google to learn the facts of what one party vs two party means. California is a two party state it has nothing to do with them being in your car or your house, it has to do with the law. Why do you think businesses post video surveillance signs, it's not because they want to waste money!

This law is what the Taco Bell guy who beat the Uber driver in LA used to file his counter suit. California being a two party state is why people are keeping a close eye on this lawsuit. When the law was written video wasn't as ubiquitous as it is today. There are some who say the law only applies to the recording of audio, while others like the Taco Bell guys attorney claims it applies to video as well.

Education about the laws your operating under is key - doing the wrong thing could get you in more trouble.


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## UberPartnerDennis (Jun 21, 2015)

Beur said:


> You can beg all you want, I suggest you use Google to learn the facts of what one party vs two party means. California is a two party state it has nothing to do with them being in your car or your house, it has to do with the law. Why do you think businesses post video surveillance signs, it's not because they want to waste money!
> 
> This law is what the Taco Bell guy who beat the Uber driver in LA used to file his counter suit. California being a two party state is why people are keeping a close eye on this lawsuit. When the law was written video wasn't as ubiquitous as it is today. There are some who say the law only applies to the recording of audio, while others like the Taco Bell guys attorney claims it applies to video as well.
> 
> Education about the laws your operating under is key - doing the wrong thing could get you in more trouble.


if your theory holds true then business must allow a customer a chance to opt out of being recorded and still shop there.

The guy in LA has a suit because the driver posted it on youtube...that is where he messed up..everything was legal up to that point.

i suggest YOU get educated friend...i have my degree that says I know what i am talking about


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

UberPartnerDennis said:


> if your theory holds true then business must allow a customer a chance to opt out of being recorded and still shop there.
> 
> The guy in LA has a suit because the driver posted it on youtube...that is where he messed up..everything was legal up to that point.
> 
> i suggest YOU get educated friend...i have my degree that says I know what i am talking about


Clearly your education failed you, you don't have the slightest idea or haven't been able to articulate your understanding of what one party vs two party state means. Enjoy living in your "degree educated" state.

Businesses do allow customers to opt out, why do you think the signs are clearly posted upon entering the store, the customer has the option of continuing to shop or leave.


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## UberPartnerDennis (Jun 21, 2015)

Beur said:


> Clearly your education failed you, you don't have the slightest idea or haven't been able to articulate your understanding of what one party vs two party state means. Enjoy living in your "degree educated" state.
> 
> Businesses do allow customers to opt out, why do you think the signs are clearly posted upon entering the store, the customer has the option of continuing to shop or leave.


You go with that....lets see how the case plays out then you can apologize to me


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

UberPartnerDennis said:


> You go with that....lets see how the case plays out then you can apologize to me


I suggest you go read California Penal Code section 632 before you continue making a donkey of yourself. Feel free to apologize at any time.

Google is a wonderful tool!


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

UberPartnerDennis said:


> You go with that....lets see how the case plays out then you can apologize to me





UberPartnerDennis said:


> if your theory holds true then business must allow a customer a chance to opt out of being recorded and still shop there.
> 
> The guy in LA has a suit because the driver posted it on youtube...that is where he messed up..everything was legal up to that point.
> 
> i suggest YOU get educated friend...*i have my degree that says I know what i am talking about*


Just as I expected

Crickets from Mr "*I Have My Degree That Says I Know What I Am Talking About*"


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## Beur (Apr 14, 2015)

Where did UberPartnerDennis go, don't you hate it when someone insists they're rate and expects an apology. But when you prove them wrong with actual facts they disappear with their tail between their legs.

Hey UberPartnerDennis have you read California Penal Code Section 632? Do you need me to explain it to you or are you able to understand it with your degree that says you know what you're talking about?


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## Ringo (Jul 2, 2016)

I have a forward facing camera but if I sense trouble will I be within the law if I say I'm now turning this camera towards all occupants in the vehicle (however awkward that may sound) making sure everyone hears me, I live in CA.


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## UberPartnerDennis (Jun 21, 2015)

Ringo said:


> I have a forward facing camera but if I sense trouble will I be within the law if I say I'm now turning this camera towards all occupants in the vehicle (however awkward that may sound) making sure everyone hears me, I live in CA.


Does it record audio? Then most likely you will have to announce it. If it doesn't then you don't.


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## MaximusMurkimus (Jun 2, 2016)

YouTube culture is venomous.


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## mother1987 (Aug 21, 2016)

Its total rubbish. Ive had a couple of recording passengers myself, even ones that take photos of my car interior, etc. I dont know why - I always take them on the directest route, car is clean and nice. I try my best to ignore it, and stay as pleasant as I can. It is incredibly annoying though - I often wonder how they would feel if I stuck a camera into their face (especially when theyre trying to concentrate on driving). Total abuse of mobile phones, but thats the way society is heading. There is no privacy or personability anymore - just bullshit like this. Drivers shouldnt feel the need to record their passengers, and most certainly vice versa. I mean, why catch a ride with an Uber car to begin with if youre so worried, and youre going to act like a looney toon as soon as your driver changes lanes?


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## CrazyT (Jul 2, 2016)

The other day I had literally just started the ride, like got a few hundred feet from pickup when the guy started taking pictures. I asked him not to and he did it again. There was nothing going on, no traffic, on a back road, in a 40 mph zone going 35. When I said something about taking pictures he tried acting innocent. Look dude I heard it the first time and the second saw you in the rear view mirror aim it at me. 

It's sad to do but my neighbor is getting me into a decent security place where I can get a camera that will record outside the car and inside, with full audio. They'll install it and position so I have as full a view as possible.


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## mother1987 (Aug 21, 2016)

CrazyT said:


> The other day I had literally just started the ride, like got a few hundred feet from pickup when the guy started taking pictures. I asked him not to and he did it again. There was nothing going on, no traffic, on a back road, in a 40 mph zone going 35. When I said something about taking pictures he tried acting innocent. Look dude I heard it the first time and the second saw you in the rear view mirror aim it at me.
> 
> It's sad to do but my neighbor is getting me into a decent security place where I can get a camera that will record outside the car and inside, with full audio. They'll install it and position so I have as full a view as possible.


LOL What's wrong with the guy? Do you know if the guy rated you five stars? Even if you had been going 5mph faster than you're allowed to, what would the rider have done with a photo?


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## CrazyT (Jul 2, 2016)

mother1987 said:


> LOL What's wrong with the guy? Do you know if the guy rated you five stars? Even if you had been going 5mph faster than you're allowed to, what would the rider have done with a photo?


I have no idea. I don't think he rated at all from the looks of the rated trip count. I reported him to uber that he's a creeper, don't give me him again. Maybe he took issue with my scarf and just didn't want to say anything. Who knows.


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## Doctorsookie (Apr 16, 2019)

Lnsky said:


> So I kicked my first passenger out this morning on Lyft.
> 
> When she got in the car my luxury vehicle wash freshly washed and spot free on the inside. I was freshly dressed but no makeup as it was early morning and I just showered after a run.
> 
> ...


You shouldn't need to sue because she'd be screwing heself. From what I read Uber drivers are permitted to use recording devices but passengers are not.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

McLovin said:


> Kudos to Lyft support. No way would the pax rating get removed by Uber.


I've had pax ratings removed. It can only be done at a GLH or Spot, though, and you may have to pull out the language from the 180 Days of Change to show the rep that it is supposed to be done.


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## So_cal_909760 (Apr 18, 2018)

All those people are gone i guess 2016


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

Soooo.... what happened to the Taco Bell Exec suite? Guess his name is Benjamin Golden. He got 60 days in jail for assaulting the driver. But not much after that and 2016 of what happened to his counter lawsuit for $5 million.


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