# If Lyft can’t keep its drivers as independent contractors, it may never be profitable



## IGotDrive (Oct 8, 2018)

https://www.latimes.com/business/te...po-drivers-20190309-story.html?outputType=amp
Lyft's entire business model is predicated on its relationship with its drivers. It hinges on recruiting them, keeping them happy, ensuring the company never has to provide them health insurance and other benefits, and eventually finding a way to replace some of them with self-driving cars so Lyft can keep a bigger chunk of the check after every ride.

Unfortunately for Lyft there is great uncertainty at each juncture of that driver relationship.


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

Hundreds of thousands of companies worldwide in all industries that secure independent nonemployee contractors would
be unsustainable (out of business) if required to reclassify personnel as Employees.

Careful what u wish for


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bonum exactoris said:


> Hundreds of thousands of companies worldwide in all industries that secure independent nonemployee contractors would
> be unsustainable (out of business) if required to reclassify personnel as Employees.
> 
> Careful what u wish for


Not really.

Those businesses can remain sustainable and (in business) by raising the prices they charge their customers.

If they can't raise prices and have to exploit their workers then they shouldn't be in business in the first place.


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

2017- 1 billion rev showed 688 mill loss
2018- 2.2 billion rev showed 918 mill loss
So on 1.2 bill rev gain , they only lost 230 million
Recently they have been more tight, so
Loses this quarter will be less
They can cut down on advertising, to bring it down to under 500 mill loss on 2.5 bill rev
Fat can be cut from the corporate.
Just charging .50c more a ride brings in close to 200 million $ per year.
Not paying cancellation fee and tolls to drivers might take them 1 billion on the positive side...?
Let all the Lyft employees give out 10 rides a week free...that will definitely put them on the positive side


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

observer said:


> Not really.
> 
> Those businesses can remain sustainable and (in business) by raising the prices they charge their customers.
> 
> If they can't raise prices and have to exploit their workers then they shouldn't be in business in the first place.


Simplistic Nonsense and shortsighted.
The working class answer to everything, "just raise prices"


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bonum exactoris said:


> Simplistic Nonsense and shortsighted


I agree.

Operating an unsustainable business that has to exploit workers to stay in business _let alone_ become profitable, is simplistic nonsense and shortsighted.


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

observer said:


> I agree.
> 
> Operating an unsustainable business that has to exploit workers to stay in business _let alone_ become profitable, is simplistic nonsense and shortsighted.


Comprehension: The Goal of Reading @observer 
Comprehension, or extracting meaning from what you read, is the ultimate goal of reading.

https://www.readnaturally.com/research/5-components-of-reading/comprehension


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bonum exactoris said:


> Comprehension: The Goal of Reading @observer
> Comprehension, or extracting meaning from what you read, is the ultimate goal of reading.
> 
> https://www.readnaturally.com/research/5-components-of-reading/comprehension


My thoughts exactly.


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## Dan2miletripguy (Nov 3, 2018)

You would think that since we don't get any health coverage or other benefits that a real employee would get that these guys would at least hook us up with $1 per mile but alas....


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bonum exactoris said:


> Simplistic Nonsense and shortsighted.
> The working class answer to everything, "just raise prices"


Ahhhh, the bourgeoisie answer to everything.

Please when you go back and edit your comment an hour and a half after I quoted yours at least have the courtesy to note that you added to your original quote.

It gives one the impression that you're trying to pull a fast one.



bonum exactoris said:


> Simplistic Nonsense and shortsighted.
> The working class answer to everything, "just raise prices"


BTW, "just raise prices" isn't a working class answer. It is an answer echoed in boardrooms and management meetings across America.

I've been there, heard that. Raising prices is the second thing brought up, right after "lay off 10% of the workers".


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

observer said:


> Ahhhh, the bourgeoisie answer to everything.
> 
> Please when you go back and edit your comment an hour and a half after I quoted yours at least have the courtesy to note that you added to your original quote.
> 
> ...


........said the uber driver. LOL


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bonum exactoris said:


> ........said the uber driver. LOL







Sorry, wrong answer.

I've never been an Uber driver. Nothing wrong with being one and I may take it up someday but I haven't yet.


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

observer said:


> Sorry, wrong answer.
> 
> I've never been an Uber driver. Nothing wrong with being one and I may take it up someday but I haven't yet.


Checkr is effective keeping out the undesirable elements


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bonum exactoris said:


> Checkr is effective keeping out the undesirable elements


Some may have slipped through the cracks.

Anyway, fun talking to you. Time to go to work. Have a beautiful day.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

If they are ever required to have employees...

They would need to..

Pay 57c (i think the standard rate is here) a mile on all miles driven (or provide a car 100% free of charge, including gasoline), pay min wage for all time if they can't go home and do other things between rides.. case law shows that they aren't "on call" but instead actively working if they can't use the time for personal activities.

And then they would have to pay benefits...

And then they would have to pay overtime...


Their costs would go up by such an insane degree that... yeah your looking at $20+ an hour + benefits in a state with an $8.00 min wage.

$25+ once they hit overtime... in a state with $8.00 min wage.


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

IGotDrive said:


> https://www.latimes.com/business/te...po-drivers-20190309-story.html?outputType=amp
> Lyft's entire business model is predicated on its relationship with its drivers. It hinges on recruiting them, keeping them happy, ensuring the company never has to provide them health insurance and other benefits, and eventually finding a way to replace some of them with self-driving cars so Lyft can keep a bigger chunk of the check after every ride.
> 
> Unfortunately for Lyft there is great uncertainty at each juncture of that driver relationship.


---------------------

The development and progress of self-driving technology have been a beacon of hope for many companies that rely on drivers. As former Uber Chief Executive Travis Kalanick once said, "The magic of self-driving vehicles is that the reason Uber could be expensive is because you're not just paying for the car, you're paying for the other dude in the car.

Another statement from a moron. The sad thing is Kalanick actually thought that Uber fares were too expensive because of the driver.

This article starts with one subject and ends with another. Looks like the true subject is Lyft using auto-driven cars to compete in the market. 
Why doesn't the writer look at the waste in Lyft's operational program? As a former business owner, I could reduce their costs by at least 30% within 60 days. 
Lyft states in its IPO paperwork that they have a difficult time keeping qualified drivers. If they did not take 40% to 65% of the drivers earning, they would not have this problem. 
I find that the majority of my paxs think that ride share drivers make a lot of money, therefore, will not leave a tip. I am considering listing 10 trips and showing the percentage that Lyft is taking from my earnings and placing in the car for the pax to view. Some will understand -- some will not. We, as drivers, need to do something to educate the public on what is actually happening. 
Everyone reading this -- think about sending an e-mail to this writer and explain the driver earning facts to her. The contact is at the bottom of the article. You can send an e-mail directly to her.


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## Lowestformofwit (Sep 2, 2016)

bonum exactoris said:


> ........said the uber driver. LOL


*And you are....?*

Just to reiterate: "*You go into business to make money*".
_"Business_ is also the organized efforts and activities of individuals to produce and *sell goods and services for profit.*" (Investopedia).
But that's probably, for you at least "Simplistic Nonsense and shortsighted."
Do tell us how you pay your bills, and otherwise progress in life, while simultaneously losing money.
"I'm listening" (Frasier Crane).


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

Lowestformofwit said:


> *And you are....?*
> 
> Just to reiterate: "*You go into business to make money*".
> _"Business_ is also the organized efforts and activities of individuals to produce and *sell goods and services for profit.*" (Investopedia).
> ...


You're elementary P & L is valid......
....3 decades ago!.
times change
investor strategy changes
type of investor has dramatically changed
Wall Street no longer looks to the working poor for opinion or investment

and frankly, today's IPOs are for the wealthy. Loses can benefit their portfolios. Long wait time for profits is OK for them.
Small investors Need Not Apply

https://www.wsj.com/articles/red-ink-floods-ipo-market-1538388000
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/private-inequity/570808/
"As we've seen during most of the recovery period since the Great Recession, investors are not so margin-focused, but continue to put a premium on businesses with long-term future expansion or disruption potential."

In other words, investors are willing to buy in now in order to subsidize and grow a company that could make lots of money later. They believe that the companies' future profits will eclipse these current losses.

https://www.recode.net/2019/3/6/18249997/lyft-uber-ipo-public-profit
seriously, these are not my opinions because I'm not qualified to discuss global multi billion dollar investment strategy like u uber drivers.
I offer the positions of the WSJ, The Atlantic, Recode, NYT etc.


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## 2Cents (Jul 18, 2016)

Formula to profitability...


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## Lowestformofwit (Sep 2, 2016)

A profit is a profit.
A loss is a loss.
Ask any gambler.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

bonum exactoris said:


> Simplistic Nonsense and shortsighted.
> The working class answer to everything, "just raise prices"


The end user pays all costs and a profit margin for the owner(s). That's the way capitalism works.
If I make Widgets, and my costs break down, per widget - like this:
$1 for material
$1 for real estate
$1 for labor

I can NOT sell you a widget for $3.

Now that I have my out of pocket expenses nailed down, I have to ask, "How much profit, for me. I don't wanna work for nothing."

If I get a normal profit, I would charge $6.
So, its not the answer to everything, but its the answer to the question.


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

UberBastid said:


> The end user pays all costs and a profit margin for the owner(s). That's the way capitalism works.
> If I make Widgets, and my costs break down, per widget - like this:
> $1 for material
> $1 for real estate
> ...





Lowestformofwit said:


> A profit is a profit.
> A loss is a loss.
> Ask any gambler.


I'm a driver. The market is for the wealthy.
Good luck with ur certified financial investor career ?
Credentials & track record are everything.
Ping Ping...is that ur app or mine??

https://www.recode.net/2019/3/6/18249997/lyft-uber-ipo-public-profit


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

bonum exactoris said:


> You're elementary P & L is valid......
> ....3 decades ago!.
> times change
> investor strategy changes
> ...


You know being in the middle class isn't the same as being stupid and being rich doesn't necessarily make you smart.


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> You know being in the middle class isn't the same as being stupid and being rich doesn't necessarily make you smart.


I know how to accept pings and drive from point A to point B.?with people in my Prius for minimum wage as a disposable nonemployee

U other uber drivers are the CFA global multi billion dollar expert investor bankers.
or you're under a misconception

Ping ping..... that's my tune, gotta go!! Bye bye and buy bonds ?


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

bonum exactoris said:


> I know how to accept pings and drive from point A to point B.?with people in my Prius for minimum wage as a disposable nonemployee
> 
> U other uber drivers are the CFA global multi billion dollar expert investor bankers.
> or you're under a misconception
> ...


Now think about how many millionaires used to be dirt poor, bagging groceries or flipping burgers. If you have low self esteem from doing Uber doesn't mean everyone else has to.


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## Taksomotor (Mar 19, 2019)

The idea of turning rideshare drivers into employees is absolutely rediculous. The rideshare business was never meant to be a way for people to get their employment. If you want to drive as your full time job you should go and work for one of those cab companies or limo services. 

They call this business ridesharing, because that is what it is - independent drivers, owners of their family cars, share their ride at their spare time, for an extra pay. The moment you hire the drivers as employees, you become just another cab/limo service company. 

Maybe there is a niche for that business model as well, but that was never the Uber or Lyft model. And they should fight for their right to do business the way it was designed, don't let the commies ruin it for them.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Taksomotor said:


> The idea of turning rideshare drivers into employees is absolutely rediculous. The rideshare business was never meant to be a way for people to get their employment. If you want to drive as your full time job you should go and work for one of those cab companies or limo services.
> 
> They call this business ridesharing, because that is what it is - independent drivers, owners of their family cars, share their ride at their spare time, for an extra pay. The moment you hire the drivers as employees, you become just another cab/limo service company.
> 
> Maybe there is a niche for that business model as well, but that was never the Uber or Lyft model. And they should fight for their right to do business the way it was designed, don't let the commies ruin it for them.


I second that, instead our rights as independent contractors should be expanded. Rideshare companies have too much control over drivers at the moment.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

observer said:


> Not really.
> 
> Those businesses can remain sustainable and (in business) by raising the prices they charge their customers.
> 
> If they can't raise prices and have to exploit their workers then they shouldn't be in business in the first place.


That's difficult, though. The clothes I am wearing, the computer I am writing on, the light bulb that I see by to write etc etc etc were all made by someone in China who was almost guaranteed to have been, according to our definition, exploited. But 80% of the world's people live on less than $10 per day. Maybe their reality is the normal, base, state of affairs, and we 20% are the exploiters.

It's all relative.


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Now think about how many millionaires used to be dirt poor, bagging groceries or flipping burgers. If you have low self esteem from doing Uber doesn't mean everyone else has to.


Can u name some millionaires that once bagged groceries?


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## Taksomotor (Mar 19, 2019)

Well, to be fair, most people who bag groceries as their permanent job are just not capable of doing anything else. What can you do, we all have different levels of talent and aspiration.


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

Taksomotor said:


> Well, to be fair, most people who bag groceries as their permanent job are just not capable of doing anything else. What can you do, we all have different levels of talent and aspiration.


Usually baggers are on work release from serving prison sentences
or in a halfway house.
Only way they become millionaires is by Robbing thousands of bank branches


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

The IC/employee issue is flip sided with pros and cons that differ for each of us. Personally I would not want Uber to give me employee status. The reason I do this is so I can work if and when i like, on my own schedule, something I'm worried employee status would jeopardise. I understand how some full timers might view it differently though.


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## Taksomotor (Mar 19, 2019)

But they are full timers by their own choice. No one sent them an offer stating that they have to work 40 hrs per week


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

bonum exactoris said:


> Can u name some millionaires that once bagged groceries?


I will do you one better, here go a small sample of once poor billionaires.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/billionaires-who-came-from-nothing-2013-12


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I will do you one better, here go a small sample of once poor billionaires.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/billionaires-who-came-from-nothing-2013-12
> View attachment 305848


Question was Miss self described middle class, name a millionaire that bagged groceries?


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

bonum exactoris said:


> Question was Miss self described middle class, name a millionaire that bagged groceries?


Are you looking for a millionaire that in particularly bagged groceries vs flip burgers or push grocery carts?


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## Lowestformofwit (Sep 2, 2016)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Are you looking for a millionaire that in particularly bagged groceries vs flip burgers or push grocery carts?


One in our City (billionaire) got his start selling race programs at the harness races.
Will that do?


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

The Gift of Fish said:


> That's difficult, though. The clothes I am wearing, the computer I am writing on, the light bulb that I see by to write etc etc etc were all made by someone in China who was almost guaranteed to have been, according to our definition, exploited. But 80% of the world's people live on less than $10 per day. Maybe their reality is the normal, base, state of affairs, and we 20% are the exploiters.
> 
> It's all relative.


I live on about ten bux a day myself. Five bux for food, five bux for other expenses. My biggest expense right now is gasoline which is almost five bux per gallon.

I think most people in the third world own their homes, humble as they may be, but they have no mortgage. A lot of families also live together in multigenerational homes. I see very few renters here. Most "first world families" biggest cost is housing, anywhere from 30-50% of their budget.

I know a lot of people think living in a third world is harsh. It really isn't that bad if you have a little initiative.



bonum exactoris said:


> Can u name some millionaires that once bagged groceries?


I can name several millionaires, none of which you would know, that cut peoples lawns for a living. Being a millionaire isn't really that hard anymore.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

bonum exactoris said:


> Usually baggers are on work release from serving prison sentences
> or in a halfway house.
> Only way they become millionaires is by Robbing thousands of bank branches





bonum exactoris said:


> Usually baggers are on work release from serving prison sentences
> or in a halfway house.
> Only way they become millionaires is by Robbing thousands of bank branches


This isn't true most grocery stores won't hire f


observer said:


> I live on about ten bux a day myself. Five bux for food, five bux for other expenses. My biggest expense right now is gasoline which is almost five bux per gallon.
> 
> I think most people in the third world own their homes, humble as they may be, but they have no mortgage. A lot of families also live together in multigenerational homes. I see very few renters here. Most "first world families" biggest cost is housing, anywhere from 30-50% of their budget.
> 
> I know a lot of people think living in a third world is harsh. It really isn't that bad if you have a little initiative.


The trick is multi generational homes. Most don't own their homes. No matter how cheap a home they have someone owns the land they have it on.

Also divide the cost of mortgage/rent, car note, utilities, daily expenses. Do you still come out to ten dollars per day?


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> This isn't true most grocery stores won't hire f
> 
> The trick is multi generational homes. Most don't own their homes. No matter how cheap a home they have someone owns the land they have it on.
> 
> Also divide the cost of mortgage/rent, car note, utilities, daily expenses. Do you still come out to ten dollars per day?


I'm starting to get the feeling you're just banging on ur keyboard with no resource or background information.
Reading is fundamental

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/18/why-companies-are-turning-to-ex-cons-to-fill-slots-for-workers.html
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Mak...ovates-by-hiring-ex-cons-providing-fresh-food
https://www.jailtojob.com/companies-hire-felons.html


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## Taksomotor (Mar 19, 2019)

Owning a home in USA is another scam. People are paying mortgage for their whole lives and then when they retire they cannot afford the property taxes on their overpriced properties, even after paying off the mortgage. They are forced to sell the house, buy a cheaper condo, and move further out from the city they lived in. I guess it works out overall, but no, your home is not your fortress, it is just a temporary place to sleep in.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

bonum exactoris said:


> I'm starting to get the feeling you're just banging on ur keyboard with no resource or background information.
> Reading is fundamental
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/18/why-companies-are-turning-to-ex-cons-to-fill-slots-for-workers.html
> ...


Use to be a manager for a grocery chain, most >90% do not hire felons. Sorry about the half post.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> This isn't true most grocery stores won't hire f
> 
> The trick is multi generational homes. Most don't own their homes. No matter how cheap a home they have someone owns the land they have it on.
> 
> Also divide the cost of mortgage/rent, car note, utilities, daily expenses. Do you still come out to ten dollars per day?


I have no mortgage, own my own home.

No car note, I drive a beater that should last me five years as long as I maintain it. My beater isn't the most beautiful or modern but it gets me around and runs really well. My last truck I bought for four hundred bux and lasted almost five years, I had to replace it this year. I'll eventually drive my Prius down here and use that to get around, dropping my gasoline bill down considerably.

Utilities, water bill is about forty bux a year. Electricity is currently around 15 bux a month. Gas is 30 bux a cylinder and lasts around six weeks. Once I install a solar water heater (250 bux) the gas should at least last twice as long.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

observer said:


> I have no mortgage, own my own home.
> 
> No car note, I drive a beater that should last me five years as long as I maintain it. My beater isn't the most beautiful or modern but it gets me around and runs really well. My last truck I bought for four hundred bux and lasted almost five years, I had to replace it this year. I'll eventually drive my Prius down here and use that to get around, dropping my gasoline bill down considerably.
> 
> Utilities, water bill is about forty bux a year. Electricity is currently around 15 bux a month. Gas is 30 bux a cylinder and lasts around six weeks. Once I install a solar water heater (250 bux) the gas should at least last twice as long.


That's really good, my hat off to you.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

observer said:


> I know a lot of people think living in a third world is harsh. It really isn't that bad if you have a little initiative.


Life in the third world is typically much harder in than in the developed world. The evidence? The hundreds of thousands who are willing to abandon their homelands and families in order to try to escape the poverty, violence and corruption of Central and South America. So many try to get into the US that Trump wants to build a wall to stop them.

Or the thousands of Africans who do the same to try to escape the problems of their lands by crossing the Mediterranean to Europe in little boats. Or the South East Asians who try to reach Europe by crossing Asia. Or the Middle Easterners who try the same.

No, if life wasn't so bad in these countries there would not be the attempted mass migration from their lands to the first world.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Life in the third world is typically much harder in than in the developed world. The evidence? The hundreds of thousands who are willing to abandon their homelands and families in order to try to escape the poverty, violence and corruption of Central and South America. So many try to get into the US that Trump wants to build a wall to stop them.
> 
> Or the thousands of Africans who do the same to try to escape the problems of their lands by crossing the Mediterranean to Europe in little boats. Or the South East Asians who try to reach Europe by crossing Asia. Or the Middle Easterners who try the same.
> 
> No, if life wasn't so bad in these countries there would not be the attempted mass migration from their lands to the first world.


I don't think most people understand the level of privilege that's had in modern nations and how few the modern nations are. Majority of the world is poor.


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## bonum exactoris (Mar 2, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Use to be a manager for a grocery chain, most >90% do not hire felons. Sorry about the half post.
> View attachment 305883


I guess thing have changed in the past 4 decades since ur management gig.



TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I don't think most people understand the level of privilege that's had in modern nations and how few the modern nations are. Majority of the world is poor.
> View attachment 305899
> View attachment 305902


Let me guess,
?It's uber's Fault ?


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

bonum exactoris said:


> I guess thing have changed in the past 4 decades since ur management gig.
> 
> 
> Let me guess,
> ?It's uber's Fault ?


I'm only 27, and no it isn't Uber's fault most of the world is poor. Somethings are unfortunate but just is. We don't have to disagree to disagree, one love man.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Life in the third world is typically much harder in than in the developed world. The evidence? The hundreds of thousands who are willing to abandon their homelands and families in order to try to escape the poverty, violence and corruption of Central and South America. So many try to get into the US that Trump wants to build a wall to stop them.
> 
> Or the thousands of Africans who do the same to try to escape the problems of their lands by crossing the Mediterranean to Europe in little boats. Or the South East Asians who try to reach Europe by crossing Asia. Or the Middle Easterners who try the same.
> 
> No, if life wasn't so bad in these countries there would not be the attempted mass migration from their lands to the first world.


The more I think about it the more I realize you are right and my own personal viewpoint may not be up to date.

Many people view Mexico as a third world country. I myself remember seeing homes made of tar paper and straw and sticks. No one told me about these houses, I actually saw them in my neighborhood. My dad built our house from the ground up, _literally _the ground up since he also made the bricks himself.

I remember my own mother using an earth "stove" with Mezquite wood as a fuel source.

As a kid I would carry metal pails of water from a _pila _a quarter mile away because we had no running water. Since we had no running water we had an outhouse instead of a toilet.

For lighting at night we used kerosene lanterns or candles.

The roads were unpaved, mostly dirt with a few cobblestone streets here and there.

Mexicos standard of living is no longer third world, at least not in the area I'm from, it has progressed. All streets are paved, a good amount of them concrete paved within the last ten years. A good amount of the rest are cobblestone. Very, very few streets are dirt.

All homes are brick or concrete and all have electricity and natural gas cylinders. Water is piped in to the homes. Water does occasionally get rationed so we have a thousand gallon water tank on the roof and a ten thousand gallon underground tank in case the roof tank runs out.

We still use Mezquite wood on occasion to cook our carne asada (I have a couple tons of Mezquite firewood stacked) but it's a _luxury_ instead of a necessity.

Things have been changing here and it's been for the best.


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## Wonkytonk (Jan 28, 2018)

reg barclay said:


> The IC/employee issue is flip sided with pros and cons that differ for each of us. Personally I would not want Uber to give me employee status. The reason I do this is so I can work if and when i like, on my own schedule, something I'm worried employee status would jeopardize. I understand how some full timers might view it differently though.


I think that's a fairly reasonable position, and one that I share. I've been saying that since I joined here. My problem with the rideshare companies is that they're trying to have it both ways calling us independent contractors and simultaneously incessantly trying to assert employee level of control over drivers.

Lyft only just recently released what is essentially an employee handbook governing how to conduct oneself as a driver. 
Someone dropped the ball there because with that action they've eroded the wall between independent contractor and employee on the side of employee in a rather blatant way.

Also I think it should be illegal for companies to use psychological tricks to illicit employee level behavior benefiting the company over the contractor. At some point if the word partner means anything there has to be some level of parity between the partners, or it's not a partnership. Right now we're far closer to benefit-less employees than we are to partners, and that's just the plain truth of it.

As the most recent example I can't believe they pulled the DF driving pay reduction the way they've done it. That's just outright theft of the money drivers have earned to pay less experienced drivers to compensate for the lack of money they're not getting from uber because it's swallowing all of the profit with next to no skin in the game with respect to costs, and risks involved with actually providing the rides earning all of the money.

With that move they're tacitly acknowledging drivers aren't being paid enough and instead of doing the right, moral, and just thing and taking less of an outrageous cut and paying drivers more of what they earned they've decided to steal the money from the higher earning drivers to pay the lower earning less experienced drivers.

I don't see how that's in any way legal. If they ever do that to one of my rides you can bet your ass I'll have my ass in the DA's office that same, or very next day with a visit to my city council member immediately after.

It's high time the city cap the percentage uber/lyft can take off the top of the total fare paid by riders, and force the rideshare companies to chose between a service fee that can't increase without a corresponding increase in rider fare, or a 15% capped percentage of the total fare paid by riders.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I don't think most people understand the level of privilege that's had in modern nations and how few the modern nations are. Majority of the world is poor.
> View attachment 305899
> View attachment 305902


I found the article from which you posted the images,

https://howmuch.net/articles/gdp-per-capita-2018
Interesting read. I do have a couple reservations about them.

The figures used in one image 100K+ do not match with those in another image in the same article 62K.

The 62K figure is about the household average income, so I'm not sure if I got my wires crossed or the article got their wires crossed. Notice I wrote _*household*_ income. How many income earners are in each household? 1-2-3-4 ?? In many countries the wife doesn't work which would lower the household income. In the US it's almost mandatory that both husband and wife work to make enough to pay the bills and mortgage. What would happen if one of the household earners didn't work anymore, nationwide? Would housing prices drop? Would GDP drop? Would disposable income drop?

What would happen in countries that are single earners that started to have both husband and wife work?

Speaking of GDP, GDP may or may not be a good indicator of standard of living. The GDP per capita means that the wealth produced is averaged equally amongst the US population.

Is the wealth produced distributed equally? No.

Tom Taxpayer does not make the same as Bill Bigbux Gates.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

observer said:


> I found the article from which you posted the images,
> 
> https://howmuch.net/articles/gdp-per-capita-2018
> Interesting read. I do have a couple reservations about them.
> ...


Sorry your wires are crossed :frown:. I believe you're referring to the USA being a forest green at 62k, and not a dark green at over 100k. Thats not typo its correct, the USA gpd per capita isn't over 100k, only Lexumberg.

Next households will not make a difference here all modern nations have been burning bras since the 80's, and most poor nations the kids work too.

Lastly gpd per capita isn't perfect but that's the nature of things, it's only an indicator. However it's pretty accurate if you pay attention.
*Notice a lot of USA citizens complain about luxuries some European countries have, that the United States do not. Well those have a higher concentration of money than the USA so essentially a more prosperous lifestyle.








*



observer said:


> I found the article from which you posted the images,
> 
> https://howmuch.net/articles/gdp-per-capita-2018
> Interesting read. I do have a couple reservations about them.
> ...


Just to note I believe you maybe one of the few the gravity of the maps sunk in. Also keep your reservations and question everything given, why it's given, and to what purpose. We live in a society of half truths. But to eat a half rotten apple, is to eat a rotten apple.


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## IGotDrive (Oct 8, 2018)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I don't think most people understand the level of privilege that's had in modern nations and how few the modern nations are. Majority of the world is poor.
> View attachment 305899
> View attachment 305902


I'm not challenging the GDP data here or what you're saying. I just want to point out, though, that that GDP data does not include distribution data. In other words, it doesn't show that the majority of wealth is concentrated in certain sectors. Reading the data wrong, one might think that the average US resident makes $50-$100K a year, which we all know is not true (especially considering that certain sectors (children, elderly, etc.) frequently don't produce income at all). Many of us do earn more for comparable work than in other countries, but the GDP is also greatly influenced by the fact that we have a high number of wealthy people (billionaires/multimillionaires) compared to other countries.

Regarding rideshare, some gig delivery services, and this new trend in how some companies have been abusing independent contractor clauses, my main issues are:

1) the idea that higher employment numbers from people working in these industries give the skewed perception that people are better off, although many people working hard and full-time in these industries qualify for public assistance benefits, including myself;

2) the fact that there are a limited number of billionaires and multimillionaires to keep the GDP that high and if this type of IC employment continues to expand this way and is left unchecked, it could lead the US to approach becoming 3rd world status (which could hurt us in other ways) since that status is based on GDP (as far-fetched as it sounds, it a possibilty. China, a world leader and superpower, is technically a third world country because of it's GDP);

3) the pay can be so low when expenses are factored in that I feel that I am liquidating my asset (i.e., vehicle depreciation in exchange for cash) rather than earning much. The facts that we're not frequently updated on the values our vehicles, these companies report our earnings as the FULL fares they charge (which we have no control of) and we have to separate what we actually made and "paid" out to the companies as their cuts, and that the companies have never reported to the public the true pay after costs of operations for drivers paints an untrue picture about the viability of this type of work in this form. As a new driver, one might pick up rides 20 minutes away and make $3, likely leaving them at a deficit (actually losing money for their work), which no willing and knowing person would agree to; the companies continue to send these requests because they don't have to pay for the trips to the pick ups, but why not if it is a necessary part of the work? Besides that, why are we not allowed to negotiate the terms of our contracts as ICs?;

4) the fact that IC employment has now become a way for companies to exploit labor how it was done over a century ago pre-unionization and labor regulation; and

5) the fact of how questionable it is that we are even categorized as IC with the large amount of control that these companies have over their ICs; in fact, our control is limited to when we can work and (sometimes) what jobs we accept (since most of us know certain companies even try to keep info from us for making that decision), and the rest of control is with the companies. IC status requires the majority of control, if not all for industries outside of real estate and some others, is with the IC. As a matter of fact, another common law criteria for IC status is that the role of the IC should not be detrimental to or represent the main operation of the company, but this is not the case for these companies who have decided to abuse these clauses while lawmakers are trying to keep up.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

IGotDrive said:


> I'm not challenging the GDP data here or what you're saying. I just want to point out, though, that that GDP data does not include distribution data. In other words, it doesn't show that the majority of wealth is concentrated in certain sectors. Reading the data wrong, one might think that the average US resident makes $50-$100K a year, which we all know is not true (especially considering that certain sectors (children, elderly, etc.) frequently don't produce income at all). Many of us do earn more for comparable work than in other countries, but the GDP is also greatly influenced by the fact that we have a high number of wealthy people (billionaires/multimillionaires) compared to other countries.
> 
> Regarding rideshare, some gig delivery services, and this new trend in how some companies have been abusing independent contractor clauses, my main issues are:
> 
> ...


You're right the data isn't perfect it doesn't address distribution of wealth.

Now as far as rideshare is concerned it's not a feasible career path.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Now think about how many millionaires used to be dirt poor, bagging groceries or flipping burgers. If you have low self esteem from doing Uber doesn't mean everyone else has to.


Very few. And the vast majority had wealthy parents.

Bill Gates' dad was a millionaire. Easier to drop out of school and take a risk if your family has money isn't it?


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Very few. And the vast majority had wealthy parents.
> 
> Bill Gates' dad was a millionaire. Easier to drop out of school and take a risk if your family has money isn't it?


There actually are a lot of self made millionaires. However there is a difference between a having 5 or 6 million and actually being rich. Remember there are millionaire plumbers "technically".


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

I have a family friend who is a millionaire, a couple of times over.
Can't tell by looking - he's just a regular guy. Not the least bit impressed by himself.

I told him once that I "wish I had a million bux - just one."
He smiled and said, "A million dollars is really not much money. It is just enough, however, to get a guy in a lot of trouble.''

I don't know the story, but I got the feeling he knew what he was talking about.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

UberBastid said:


> I have a family friend who is a millionaire, a couple of times over.
> Can't tell by looking - he's just a regular guy. Not the least bit impressed by himself.
> 
> I told him once that I "wish I had a million bux - just one."
> ...


Mae West - 'I've been rich and I've been poor , and rich is better.'


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## Tnasty (Mar 23, 2016)

If Lyft can't shortchange and steal from you then it means they will have to cut down on hookers and coke.


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## Stephen Uno (Jan 17, 2018)

Taksomotor said:


> The idea of turning rideshare drivers into employees is absolutely rediculous. The rideshare business was never meant to be a way for people to get their employment. If you want to drive as your full time job you should go and work for one of those cab companies or limo services.
> 
> They call this business ridesharing, because that is what it is - independent drivers, owners of their family cars, share their ride at their spare time, for an extra pay. The moment you hire the drivers as employees, you become just another cab/limo service company.
> 
> Maybe there is a niche for that business model as well, but that was never the Uber or Lyft model. And they should fight for their right to do business the way it was designed, don't let the commies ruin it for them.


Well said....so we are contractors? What are contractors right?


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## Taksomotor (Mar 19, 2019)

Stephen Uno said:


> Well said....so we are contractors? What are contractors right?


We are neither employees, nor contractors. We are the workers of new, largely unregulated share economy. Trying to fit us into old existing models will not work.


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

mbd said:


> 2017- 1 billion rev showed 688 mill loss
> 2018- 2.2 billion rev showed 918 mill loss
> So on 1.2 bill rev gain , they only lost 230 million
> Recently they have been more tight, so
> ...


close..and if they cut out all the R&D on self driving cars, heavy liability scooters etc... agree on the 50c ...


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Taksomotor said:


> Owning a home in USA is another scam. People are paying mortgage for their whole lives and then when they retire they cannot afford the property taxes on their overpriced properties, even after paying off the mortgage. They are forced to sell the house, buy a cheaper condo, and move further out from the city they lived in. I guess it works out overall, but no, your home is not your fortress, it is just a temporary place to sleep in.


Strange,

I own 2 houses i'm collecting vacation rental income with and not even living in, while i live in a trailer park. (gotta love that logic right?)

Some places in the US I agree, but not everywhere.

Around here there is a SHOCKING number of condos for between $60,000-100,000.

Houses start at $110,000 and there's a bunch for sale in the $110,000-$200,000 range.

A 30 year loan on $175,000 is like <$1,000 a month. Or totally affordable for a dual middle income family.


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