# Is anyone else concerned that another big stimulus (either in UI or lump sum payments) will be catastrophic long term?



## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern... I have been posting actively since the pandemic hit a year ago (to share stories and relieve stress), and have been working continuously, talking to pax about the UI benefits and stimulus. Personally, I do not and did not get a government check, and if there is another stimulus bill passed, I won't qualify. But, I am very happy for my fellow ants who received it (or are still receiving it). As I read these message boards, it was by the grace of God that many got a well deserved rest (and protection from exposure to the virus). 

For myself, even though I did not receive a check and drove throughout the year, I noticed that when the first stimulus hit, there was a huge increase in surges on UberX and UE orders. Then when the 600/week hit, another boom for me as a driver. Then yet another when Trump signed the 300/week for a month I think. Now that it all dried up, I see that business is lacking. There are still ample requests, but... a lot of very low UberEats offers ($2.50), non-existent surge (except Thanksgiving), and again very long pickups.

From the perspective of being an ant, I wish there was another huge stimulus soon, both for the relief of my fellow UP.net ants, and because I want to see surges, Quest bonuses, better tips, etc. again. But I have a lot of fear brewing about what that may mean for the country down the road.

We are well over 100% Total Debt to GDP. I studied a lot of economics in college, and a professor currently teaching at the university I went to named Richard Thaler (who won the Nobel Prize in 2017), discussed in recent interviews that we are in the most dangerous economic environment and "everyone is whistling past the graveyard." I was remembering his and many other economists I follow that if another stimulus bill is passed (which is going to be many trillions by the new (likely) Biden Administration), the U.S. dollar could crumble because of the total debt would be crushing. As the Federal Reserve will most certainly not choose the way of default and will "print" and "print", I can only assume hyperinflationary forces are approaching.

Recall that there are two types of debt: Consumptive and Productive. If someone borrows money to be a good ant and drive Uber, that is "Productive debt." Debt used to repay principal and interest is "good debt". But a lot of the type of debt the U.S. is accumulating due to the massive stimulus including UI is "Consumptive debt." This merely brings future consumption into the present, and the debt overhang causes the "bang point" to be hit where a currency rapidly loses value, as the government cannot manage the interest payments. While I am all for the helping of people now, as I feel it is the moral, righteous, and appropriate thing to do (with a massive stimulus), I am growing alarmingly concerned as to what this could mean farther on down the line. 

There is also talk I heard about forgiving student debt... Many pax I am listening to are growing angry that Congress is not doing enough, and the ones who are students want their student debts forgiven/discharged. I am OK with all of this, as the country is hurting. But what makes me uneasy is that very few seem to share my concerns about what a overly large acceleration of debt could do to our economy.

Am I alone in worrying about this? Please understand I am fully aware that many of my fellow ants here on UP.net are hoping for much more government stimulus ASAP (and I support them getting it), but I wish to ask if there is anyone else very distressed about what such a effect so many more trillions will have on the economy long term and the U.S. Dollar? (I can see that the rise this year in precious metals like gold and in cryptocurrencies hitting and approaching all time highs is a reflection of the massive money printing that has weakened the U.S. dollar). If the U.S. dollar loses World Reserve Currency status, and the dollar falls rapidly, and no other country is willing to send us their goods anymore, I am afraid the game will be finished. I hope I did not come across as too anxious or fretful. Again, I am all in favor for the next stimulus, but I am apprehensive as to what this country of ours will look like if and when we cannot manage our debt load any longer...


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

Young Kim said:


> Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern... I have been posting actively since the pandemic hit a year ago (to share stories and relieve stress), and have been working continuously, talking to pax about the UI benefits and stimulus. Personally, I do not and did not get a government check, and if there is another stimulus bill passed, I won't qualify. But, I am very happy for my fellow ants who received it (or are still receiving it). As I read these message boards, it was by the grace of God that many got a well deserved rest (and protection from exposure to the virus).
> 
> For myself, even though I did not receive a check and drove throughout the year, I noticed that when the first stimulus hit, there was a huge increase in surges on UberX and UE orders. Then when the 600/week hit, another boom for me as a driver. Then yet another when Trump signed the 300/week for a month I think. Now that it all dried up, I see that business is lacking. There are still ample requests, but... a lot of very low UberEats offers ($2.50), non-existent surge (except Thanksgiving), and again very long pickups.
> 
> ...


If the market tanks then it will be catastrophic...
I picked up a pax who moved out to the country side and reduced his property tax by 90%... he leases his land to some farmer &#128540;all his friends trying to do the same trick but not much properties available.
Then another pax lived inside a office suite/warehouse He was paying 500$ per month&#128540;


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## 1.5xorbust (Nov 22, 2017)

Yes I am very concerned. One way to protect yourself financially might be to buy gold or gold mining stocks. Another way might be to sell the US dollar against other major currencies in the foreign currency exchange market.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

1.5xorbust said:


> Yes I am very concerned. One way to protect yourself financially might be to buy gold or gold mining stocks. Another way might be to sell the US dollar against other major currencies in the foreign currency exchange market.


Not concerned - life expectancy is under 20 years
I'll be dead by the time they figure it out.

I'm not an alcoholic and I never have been but I sure know that saying
[HEADING=3]Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."[/HEADING]


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

You can buy DATA center REIT’s... no matter what you will need more Data centers .


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

mbd said:


> You can buy DATA center REIT's... no matter what you will need more Data centers .


Art Cashin "when they raid the horehouse they take the bad girls, the good girls, and the piano player too...."
(it wouldn't let me spell the other word)
How did those work in Feb?
I was shocked how gold and silver were crushed with the rest of the market. I came out doing very well but I sure took some bruising trying to find the bottom in silver


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

wallae said:


> Art Cashin "when they raid the horehouse they take the bad girls, the good girls, and the piano player too...."
> (it wouldn't let me spell the other word)
> How did those work in Feb?
> I was shocked how gold and silver were crushed with the rest of the market. I came out doing very well but I sure took some bruising trying to find the bottom in silver


Actually DATA centers held ok, but it was already little expensive prior to March .
Farm land REITS, DATA centers, Industrial warehouses all should be okay going forward . Data centers are trading higher today vs JAN-Feb. 
Overall the mkt is expensive compared to any decade ..


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

I looked at a few and it seems they got hit pretty hard in February. 
68 to 43


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

wallae said:


> I looked at a few and it seems they got hit pretty hard in February.
> 68 to 43


You can't just go by one month correction &#128540; mkt went down on once in a lifetime pandemic panic . I can say Patrick Mahomes is a bad qb, he threw one interception in the 2nd quarter between the 2-3 minute mark &#128077;... game is four quarters.
Look at Jan prices to today's...

Data centers are expensive, but DATA is the new oil going forward . Everything needs more Data.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

mbd said:


> You can't just go by one month correction &#128540; mkt went down on once in a lifetime pandemic panic . I can say Patrick Mahomes is a bad qb, he threw one interception in the 2nd quarter between the 2-3 minute mark &#128077;... game is four quarters.
> Look at Jan prices to today's...
> 
> Data centers are expensive, but DATA is the new oil going forward . Everything needs more Data.


I get that.
I'm just saying it didn't offer protection from a crash
Everything else went back up to


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/cone


wallae said:


> I get that.
> I'm just saying it didn't offer protection from a crash
> Everything else went back up to


So how many stocks went up in March ? And did those stocks keep going up after March ?
List few.
When mkt goes down 30% in one month, of course all stocks will go down ... Mkt never went down that much in one month, in the history of the mkt.&#128077;


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

There is a long history of countries letting their finances get out of control, of the central bank printing money, and that resulting in inflation. Most recently in Venezuela. So yeah it's a big concern. On the other hand, literally every 1st world country is doing this, as well as China ($38T debt). So if everyone is doing it, does that change things since there is no "good" currency to flee to? One thing I have been hearing is that we haven't seen crazy inflation yet because all this money being printed is NOT getting into the regular economy. it's staying in the banks etc. So since there isn't a flood of cash entering the consumer economy, we aren't being massive inflation. BUT, I'd say that based on that logic if the federal government started a UBI or regular stimulus checks, then yeah, we'd see more inflation. 









In the meantime, here's your stealth inflation on consumer goods: reduced pack sizes for the same price.


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## Jst1dreamr (Apr 25, 2019)

Young Kim said:


> Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern... I have been posting actively since the pandemic hit a year ago (to share stories and relieve stress), and have been working continuously, talking to pax about the UI benefits and stimulus. Personally, I do not and did not get a government check, and if there is another stimulus bill passed, I won't qualify. But, I am very happy for my fellow ants who received it (or are still receiving it). As I read these message boards, it was by the grace of God that many got a well deserved rest (and protection from exposure to the virus).
> 
> For myself, even though I did not receive a check and drove throughout the year, I noticed that when the first stimulus hit, there was a huge increase in surges on UberX and UE orders. Then when the 600/week hit, another boom for me as a driver. Then yet another when Trump signed the 300/week for a month I think. Now that it all dried up, I see that business is lacking. There are still ample requests, but... a lot of very low UberEats offers ($2.50), non-existent surge (except Thanksgiving), and again very long pickups.
> 
> ...


You are going to find out soon how third world countries survive. The U.S.A. will find out that all of those countries we are always giving billions of dollars to will not feel the same about giving to America when we are broke. Soon after our defense department has been gutted so Biden can give more to these ungrateful entitled free loaders and then we can't even defend our land. When the new government weather it is Russian/Chinese/Iranian or North Korean that will rule over America will straighten them out.


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

I have been preparing for whatever happens next. I have cash in the bank, cash in my investment account, some physical metals, and I am gathering my "prepper" supplies. I am also refinancing my house to pull equity out while the market it very high. Even if I just put it right into the bank for now, I'll be ready when the bad stuff happens. I am not getting stuck broke, with no way to feed myself of defend myself.


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

Mkt will not crash for a prolonged time. if it did then all Blue states will go broke...they are already broke. All those pension’s need mkt returns .👍
Big man will step in when it is time to step in and prop it back up.
AAPL, FB, Goog, MSFT and Amzn are slightly expensive , but they make billions unlike the Dot com era stocks. New IPO’s will correct 50-75% and might not recover for years.
FB grows 20% and trades in the mid 20 ish forward earnings . They have zillions in cash.
When growth stops, stock drops to lower PE.


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

mbd said:


> Mkt will not crash for a prolonged time. if it did then all Blue states will go broke...they are already broke. All those pension's need mkt returns .&#128077;
> Big man will step in when it is time to step in and prop it back up.
> AAPL, FB, Goog, MSFT and Amzn are slightly expensive , but they make billions unlike the Dot com era stocks. New IPO's will correct 50-75% and might not recover for years.
> FB grows 20% and trades in the mid 20 ish forward earnings . They have zillions in cash.
> When growth stops, stock drops to lower PE.


Yeah, since there is nowhere else to go, we could just glide along like this for awhile. It would take some event to cause a loss of confidence in the Western economies. But the way this market is now, all the share price gains are in the new major names, so you are basically forced to buy them if you want any gains.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Atom guy said:


> Yeah, since there is nowhere else to go, we could just glide along like this for awhile. It would take some event to cause a loss of confidence in the Western economies. But the way this market is now, all the share price gains are in the new major names, so you are basically forced to buy them if you want any gains.


I think the term now is called "TINA", "There Is No Alternative."


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

I am not invested in gold. I am invested in food and guns. I bought a year supply of food for a few grand. Gold holds its value but you can't eat it!


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

Young Kim said:


> Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern... I have been posting actively since the pandemic hit a year ago (to share stories and relieve stress), and have been working continuously, talking to pax about the UI benefits and stimulus. Personally, I do not and did not get a government check, and if there is another stimulus bill passed, I won't qualify. But, I am very happy for my fellow ants who received it (or are still receiving it). As I read these message boards, it was by the grace of God that many got a well deserved rest (and protection from exposure to the virus).
> 
> For myself, even though I did not receive a check and drove throughout the year, I noticed that when the first stimulus hit, there was a huge increase in surges on UberX and UE orders. Then when the 600/week hit, another boom for me as a driver. Then yet another when Trump signed the 300/week for a month I think. Now that it all dried up, I see that business is lacking. There are still ample requests, but... a lot of very low UberEats offers ($2.50), non-existent surge (except Thanksgiving), and again very long pickups.
> 
> ...


Nobody in government and many of those who take the freebies don't care about what will happen in the future. That's the problem of somebody else's children's grandchildren to worry about. They will be the ones who are paying for today's greed.

Its not a matter of if but when will we have a total financial collapse. 1 Year? 5 Years? 50 Years? Your guess is as good as mine but no sane person can argue the way things are going is sustainable.

One thing for certain whatever the date of a total financial collapse takes place it has been moved up drastically with the apparent new norm that lockdowns are here to stay. That fight was lost back in March and now there will be one reason after another on why we must shut everything down.


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

What did the shutdown and first stimulus accomplish besides businesses being lost and trillions added to the national debt?

I know, a second shutdown and stimulus should work this time! :thumbup:


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

Trafficat said:


> I am not invested in gold. I am invested in food and guns. I bought a year supply of food for a few grand. Gold holds its value but you can't eat it!


Yeah, it depends on what type of crisis you think is going to happen. In a currency crisis where the value of the dollar collapse, you'd need gold to preserve your purchasing power. But if there is some sort of total societal collapse, gold won't be good for much, and you'd be better off with food and guns. I am trying to slowly prepare for multiple situations. Next year I want to get some sort of back up power system, whether it is solar or a gas generator or both.


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

Atom guy said:


> Yeah, it depends on what type of crisis you think is going to happen. In a currency crisis where the value of the dollar collapse, you'd need gold to preserve your purchasing power. But if there is some sort of total societal collapse, gold won't be good for much, and you'd be better off with food and guns. I am trying to slowly prepare for multiple situations. Next year I want to get some sort of back up power system, whether it is solar or a gas generator or both.


We have a Generac home backup generator that we installed many years ago when CA suffered its first rolling blackouts thanks to the Enron energy fiasco. We were not going to live with 3rd world type of power management. The Generac will run on a natural gas and propane.

We never got hit with the rolling blackouts and only a few times when we lost power in our area... the generator worked as it should but in our quiet neighborhood you do know its running. If the shit hits the fan we will stand out a sore thumb when there is no power! Our system is pretty outdated though. Fully functional and reliable but there are more modern options.

This past year I've looked in to having solar panels installed along with Tesla Powerwall. My wife hates the idea of solar panels on the roof but she is coming around to the idea we need to modernize our backup. Generac backup generators are far cheaper now as well so I am thinking about installing a newer, quieter generator since we already have the infrastructure for it. The only real question is if we can tie it in with the solar panels and Powerwall. We might have to have separate, redundant hookups and I don't know if that will just make things more complicated or better having the redundancy.


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

Young Kim said:


> Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern... I have been posting actively since the pandemic hit a year ago (to share stories and relieve stress), and have been working continuously, talking to pax about the UI benefits and stimulus. Personally, I do not and did not get a government check, and if there is another stimulus bill passed, I won't qualify. But, I am very happy for my fellow ants who received it (or are still receiving it). As I read these message boards, it was by the grace of God that many got a well deserved rest (and protection from exposure to the virus).
> 
> For myself, even though I did not receive a check and drove throughout the year, I noticed that when the first stimulus hit, there was a huge increase in surges on UberX and UE orders. Then when the 600/week hit, another boom for me as a driver. Then yet another when Trump signed the 300/week for a month I think. Now that it all dried up, I see that business is lacking. There are still ample requests, but... a lot of very low UberEats offers ($2.50), non-existent surge (except Thanksgiving), and again very long pickups.
> 
> ...


https://www.thinkadvisor.com/2020/12/01/top-dems-introduce-bill-to-extend-600-jobless-benefits/


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## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

Young Kim said:


> Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern... I have been posting actively since the pandemic hit a year ago (to share stories and relieve stress), and have been working continuously, talking to pax about the UI benefits and stimulus. Personally, I do not and did not get a government check, and if there is another stimulus bill passed, I won't qualify. But, I am very happy for my fellow ants who received it (or are still receiving it). As I read these message boards, it was by the grace of God that many got a well deserved rest (and protection from exposure to the virus).
> 
> For myself, even though I did not receive a check and drove throughout the year, I noticed that when the first stimulus hit, there was a huge increase in surges on UberX and UE orders. Then when the 600/week hit, another boom for me as a driver. Then yet another when Trump signed the 300/week for a month I think. Now that it all dried up, I see that business is lacking. There are still ample requests, but... a lot of very low UberEats offers ($2.50), non-existent surge (except Thanksgiving), and again very long pickups.
> 
> ...


About the U.S dollar, nothing is "set in stone" in the course of human history. You need to divert your US dollars into other sources like gold, commodities etc..

U.S dollar is still the premier currency of the world because other low wage countries are willing to produce imported goods for America in exchange for the US dollar. In the future, when low wage countries give up accepting the US dollar, the dollar will not worth as much.. will lose the #1 position.

Funny thing is the U.S vaccine manufacturer isn't even located in the USA.. They had to ship the vaccine from another country here.. If the manufacturer is here, we can mass produce it by the millions every day.


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## Jst1dreamr (Apr 25, 2019)

Fusion_LUser said:


> One thing for certain whatever the date of a total financial collapse takes place it has been moved up drastically with the apparent new norm that lockdowns are here to stay. That fight was lost back in March and now there will be one reason after another on why we must shut everything down.


It will be the strength behind a civil war. That is likely to be the only remedy now that they have the widespread taste of control.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

franksoprano said:


> https://www.thinkadvisor.com/2020/12/01/top-dems-introduce-bill-to-extend-600-jobless-benefits/





bethswannns said:


> About the U.S dollar, nothing is "set in stone" in the course of human history. You need to divert your US dollars into other sources like gold, commodities etc..
> 
> U.S dollar is still the premier currency of the world because other low wage countries are willing to produce imported goods for America in exchange for the US dollar. In the future, when low wage countries give up accepting the US dollar, the dollar will not worth as much.. will lose the #1 position.
> 
> Funny thing is the U.S vaccine manufacturer isn't even located in the USA.. They had to ship the vaccine from another country here.. If the manufacturer is here, we can mass produce it by the millions every day.


Yes, I have indeed been regularly buying silver and gold coins to hedge myself against what will inevitably happen to the U.S. dollar. I do know people are hurting, so that is why I am OK with another stimulus, even if I did not before and will not qualify again. What has me concerned is that so many people really pushing for a massive stimulus or unemployment benefits extension are not preparing themselves. I have told pax many times that the money they have and may give out is not in some giant gold "piggy bank" or other government savings account... it must be "printed", which will debase the currency already in existence. This basic economic knowledge is something that it appears that many persons receiving benefits does not understand (or if they do, they do not fully appreciate).

I spoke to some twenty something pax about this the other day and he was upset and angry that he had student loans which may not get discharged. I silently thought to myself that if they discharge any and all student loans, without careful consideration, this may be a serious problem in the future. I can tell you understand the hazard that such a move could cause, so I need not explain it here. There are also holders of the notes (not just the government) like the banks...and their shareholders. Wiping out all student debt without careful procedures will have considerable uncomfortable (possibly disastrous) ripple effects. But everyone seems to think that there is some secret vault or fund where savings can be tapped... there is not.



franksoprano said:


> https://www.thinkadvisor.com/2020/12/01/top-dems-introduce-bill-to-extend-600-jobless-benefits/


Thanks for that link. I saw something like that, and I see many are so eager for that bill to pass. I have mixed feelings on that. I will not be a recipient of that, but I will be happy if many people are helped by such a bill. But...

This will bring our nation debt (if passed) closer to $30 Trillion dollars I think. That will, if you consider all debt both public and private, will the total debt close to 150 percent of GDP. Well regarded economists like Lacy Hunt have stated that when a nation approaches 80 percent Debt/GDP, the nation is in serious dire trouble. We are well past that point...

If the U.S. dollar collapses as a result, and foreigners refuse to take our paper in exchange for their goods anymore, then what will happen to the standard of living in the U.S.? I wish more people would consider that when they keep telling me that they are mad at Congress for not making the stimulus bigger and bigger.

One lady I remember a month ago who I drove from Park Ridge, IL to downtown Chicago, argued that, "Why not give the money to us? We are just going to spend it and help the economy! Who doesn't like free money? I don't know what they are waiting for!" (These were basically her exact words.)

I have so many counterarguments to that rather naive and simplistic thinking (as far is it pertains to economics), but I can start with pointing out what I wrote before that debt used to consumption is a temporary blip to boost GDP. After the money is spent, you are still left with all the debt. That debt is an ever growing strain to curtail further economic growth. That is why the past decade (and longer) have seen GDP growth very anemic. It is difficult to spur robust economic growth when so much of the tax receipts must be used to pay for the interest on the bonds and bloated government.

So I have mixed feeling about if the bill that your link points to is passed. On one hand I am happy for the people who will be getting expanded UI benefits until October of next year. I am sure that they will be relieved and very happy. On the other hand, I am quite fearful that this will make the event horizon for the dollar collapse point to markedly fall forward in time. Such an event will be disastrous for everyone holding U.S. dollars.


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## Igimba331999 (Oct 12, 2020)

Kim are you a plant? I'm calling BS! You claim you don't qualify for the stimulus, so you make over $95k a year which is impossible to make with Uber if you are taking all the expense deductions. If you're not taking the expense deductions, you didn't study at the Booth GRAD school where Professor Thaler teaches. If you make your $$ is from other sources why drive Uber in the slums of Chi-raq. You obviously spend more time writing than driving with all your posts (very well written and not verbally dictated or they would have the standard errors). 
So be HONEST tell us the REAL story. I have my own opinion of who you probably are.


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

Young Kim said:


> Yes, I have indeed been regularly buying silver and gold coins to hedge myself against what will inevitably happen to the U.S. dollar. I do know people are hurting, so that is why I am OK with another stimulus, even if I did not before and will not qualify again. What has me concerned is that so many people really pushing for a massive stimulus or unemployment benefits extension are not preparing themselves. I have told pax many times that the money they have and may give out is not in some giant gold "piggy bank" or other government savings account... it must be "printed", which will debase the currency already in existence. This basic economic knowledge is something that it appears that many persons receiving benefits does not understand (or if they do, they do not fully appreciate).
> 
> I spoke to some twenty something pax about this the other day and he was upset and angry that he had student loans which may not get discharged. I silently thought to myself that if they discharge any and all student loans, without careful consideration, this may be a serious problem in the future. I can tell you understand the hazard that such a move could cause, so I need not explain it here. There are also holders of the notes (not just the government) like the banks...and their shareholders. Wiping out all student debt without careful procedures will have considerable uncomfortable (possibly disastrous) ripple effects. But everyone seems to think that there is some secret vault or fund where savings can be tapped... there is not.
> 
> ...


From what I am reading from a lot of economists if they don't do it the economy is much worse, I don't study or have a huge interest in all of this but when in this position I go with the numbers of pro's saying yes do it or else.

Could you believe the embarrassment the richest country in the world by far and they let millions fall to the curb and many with children, there could be homeless all over the place, Walmart parking lots would be the new norm for homeless in their cars, the USA has already become the laughing stock of world this would take the cake, the greed is astounding..............

Just the other day I drive into my local Walmart very early to avoid the people and virus and I see a black guy probably Haitian standing next to his mini van eating something, in the van I see kids, probably wife and all his stuff almost sticking out the open windows and I see others running their cars because of the heat and sleeping, just a mile away the rich are sitting in their nice comfortable homes drinking champagne, eating the best food and saying we deserve it don't we..........

Now you said earlier that the country better watch out because the dollar could go bust and then we are screwed maybe this is what the all so special rich need, the rest of us suffer and stress financially for most of our lives and now let them get a taste of it.

The upper middle and rich are so concerned they won't be able to rape and pillage the US population for a while..........


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## Igimba331999 (Oct 12, 2020)

Short answer- NO. Watch Mr Robot. The answers lie within. If Venezuela and Greece still exists, the US will too. The real issue is how bad will it get for the little people. The only thing that affects the rich (the country's ability to continue) is a true revolution where wealth and ownership is thrown out the window and everything is "reset" to 0. It doesn't happen and as far as I know never has happened. The elite class may shrink, but it won't go away so stimulus/no stimulus it's all about the rich defining the point of revolution it's not truly a concern of ability to fiscally continue. Don't believe me? How many senators left town when the govt. "Shutdown" They weren't stressing, they were manipulating and maneuvering leverage.

When I see a politician in tears on TV saying "God help us all, we are totally f®¢©¥¶ed." I will START to be concerned for the country.


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

Igimba331999 said:


> Short answer- NO. Watch Mr Robot. The answers lie within. If Venezuela and Greece still exists, the US will too. The real issue is how bad will it get for the little people. The only thing that affects the rich (the country's ability to continue) is a true revolution where wealth and ownership is thrown out the window and everything is "reset" to 0. It doesn't happen and as far as I know never has happened. The elite class may shrink, but it won't go away so stimulus/no stimulus it's all about the rich defining the point of revolution it's not truly a concern of ability to fiscally continue. Don't believe me? How many senators left town when the govt. "Shutdown" They weren't stressing, they were manipulating and maneuvering leverage.


Anything is possible but as you say it will take a lot more than this to knock the US down to a dollar not worth squat, now how bad the economy gets and how many living in total squalor could be horrible and has already started.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

ColdRider said:


> What did the shutdown and first stimulus accomplish besides businesses being lost and trillions added to the national debt?
> 
> I know, a second shutdown and stimulus should work this time! :thumbup:


I sincerely think it did a lot for small businesses. The manufacturing company I work for has continued to operate and meet payroll only due to the PPP money that propped them up. Without the PPP there isn't a doubt we would have idled our manufacturing facility and laid people off. Our demand is 40% of normal.

The sleeping Giant will be this coming Spring of 21'. Either market demand must return to normal or a second round of PPP must occur. Without either of them there will be a very large wave of small business going bankrupt.

I'm a very conservative finance guy, but I'm in the TINA club. As previously stated the whole industrialized world is in the same boat so we won't fare any worse than everyone else. Remember, the dollar "value" is on the world currency trade market. Don't realistically know who thinks other currencies will be in far better shape. However, there will have to be some very smart people to come together to dig us out from all the debt.

Great thought provoking discussion starter thread @Young Kim.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Remember: it’s not how bad it is, it’s what it’s being compared to.

I’m for a moderate amount of propping up the economy, particularly if it keeps the whole thing from crashing down, which would be way worse than additional interest payments on government debt. The economy crashing is worse for the government’s finances, and our general quality of life, than more government debt would be for the government’s finances.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Igimba331999 said:


> Kim are you a plant? I'm calling BS! You claim you don't qualify for the stimulus, so you make over $95k a year which is impossible to make with Uber if you are taking all the expense deductions. If you're not taking the expense deductions, you didn't study at the Booth GRAD school where Professor Thaler teaches. If you make your $$ is from other sources why drive Uber in the slums of Chi-raq. You obviously spend more time writing than driving with all your posts (very well written and not verbally dictated or they would have the standard errors).
> So be HONEST tell us the REAL story. I have my own opinion of who you probably are.


@Igimba331999 my friend , please don't read incorrectly. I don't qualify for the stimulus because of my household income that I make outside of rideshare. It is so precious and I am exceedingly tickled that you fancy me "a plant"! However, I politely admonish you to exercise a degree of circumspection in that regard. (to speculate as such).

I never claimed I make over 95K on Uber... (Why do you assume things or jump to conclusions I never claimed ?) In addition, I said I studied economics at college... which I did. I went to the University of Chicago UNDERGRAD which is the same university that Dr. Thaler teaches (you are correct that he teaches at Booth which is the business GRAD school). You jumped here to a conclusion which was never made by me.

Please understand, I am obsessed with work, and I work non stop, even on weekends and holidays. After doing day work in the financial markets, I'll often do Uber because I rather enjoy it at times. Now this could be surprising to some, but I do not fear driving Uber in the "slums of Chi-raq". (it is not at all as dangerous as you may think from reading the headlines)

Your strange assumption that I have not told you the "REAL story" rather amuses me! I loved your post! Possibly, do you speculate that I am a plant inserted surreptitiously by Uber corporate? A clandestine operation to infiltrate the sacred bastion of UP.net?

C'mon bro, that idea is interesting, entertaining... but ultimately rather ridiculous. I have posted myriads of screenshots of my driver dashboard and pictures of my Prius, detailed with photos many of my exploits, even posted an old UIC medical school ID when someone asked, went into intricate detail of my RS journeys, etc. For me to be who you suspect me to be (like some corporate shill?), it would have to involve Uber at a level where I seriously do not believe they could carry out, since they can't even manage to have the competence to pay me on time (I wrote about this where the evil Mothership delayed paying me for 3 pay periods).

Please do appreciate that RS drivers come in ALL shapes and sizes, I propound and exhort you to embrace the notion that some RS drivers are highly educated, some are not so highly educated, and come from diverse backgrounds, both rich and poor. I would like here to point out that I do not feel I am any better or smarter than any other Uber ant. I am just simply......me.

I wish you a wonderful day, and please shout back any other questions you may have. I'll be happy to answer them.. after I have my morning coffee here at the Uber corporate boardroom with Dara Khosrowshahi and Mitch McConnell as they evaluate my performance as a hired consultant to feign being an ant... Sounds fair? (just kidding about that last sentence...)

Cheers mate! Have a blessed and lovely day!!


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

@Young Kim is one of the least plant-y people here. Baller.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

wallae said:


> Not concerned - life expectancy is under 20 years
> I'll be dead by the time they figure it out.
> 
> I'm not an alcoholic and I never have been but I sure know that saying
> [HEADING=3]Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."[/HEADING]


Goddam wallae.
We never agree, and I hate to break a streak ... but, yer right.

My expiration date is sooner than yours by ten years I believe, but yea ... it isn't going to affect me much if at all. I feel bad for my kids ... and grand kids, because they won't be living in the same country that I did.

They'll not have many freedoms that I enjoyed OR they will fight and die to get them back.
Either way : not good.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

franksoprano said:


> From what I am reading from a lot of economists if they don't do it the economy is much worse, I don't study or have a huge interest in all of this but when in this position I go with the numbers of pro's saying yes do it or else.
> 
> Could you believe the embarrassment the richest country in the world by far and they let millions fall to the curb and many with children, there could be homeless all over the place, Walmart parking lots would be the new norm for homeless in their cars, the USA has already become the laughing stock of world this would take the cake, the greed is astounding..............


Indeed the wealth disparity is astounding here in the USA! This is very concerning!



UberBastid said:


> Goddam wallae.
> We never agree, and I hate to break a streak ... but, yer right.
> 
> My expiration date is sooner than yours by ten years I believe, but yea ... it isn't going to affect me much if at all. I feel bad for my kids ... and grand kids, because they won't be living in the same country that I did.
> ...


@UberBastid my bro, I am always looking foward to your glib remarks and pity comebacks on all the posts. I for one hope that you will be around and living healthy for many decades to come. And I sincerely hope that the country stay together for the duration of your adventure here on Planet Earth.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

franksoprano said:


> From what I am reading from a lot of economists if they don't do it the economy is much worse, I don't study or have a huge interest in all of this but when in this position I go with the numbers of pro's saying yes do it or else.
> 
> Could you believe the embarrassment the richest country in the world by far and they let millions fall to the curb and many with children, there could be homeless all over the place, Walmart parking lots would be the new norm for homeless in their cars, the USA has already become the laughing stock of world this would take the cake, the greed is astounding..............
> 
> ...


I sure don't mind people like Walt Disney getting rich...
But the Wall Street placed "captain" steering a ship that has already sailed from the dock gets more??

Its really turned into a bad joke. Fired CEO's getting 200 hundred million exit checks...
CEOs who are bailed out...because they are so stupid get to keep their jobs in hundreds of millions of dollars
Trump (who I voted for) gives them tax cuts &#129394;

.


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

wallae said:


> I sure don't mind people like Walt Disney getting rich...
> But the Wall Street placed "captain" steering a ship that has already sailed from the dock gets more??
> 
> Its really turned into a bad joke. Fired CEO's getting 200 hundred million exit checks...
> ...


And so many people busting their asses for these rich people and they don't give shit about them, I know a broken record I personally don't have a greedy bone in my body I guess this is why I hate this known fact about many US people and others around the world.



Young Kim said:


> Indeed the wealth disparity is astounding here in the USA! This is very concerning!
> 
> 
> @UberBastid my bro, I am always looking foward to your glib remarks and pity comebacks on all the posts. I for one hope that you will be around and living healthy for many decades to come. And I sincerely hope that the country stay together for the duration of your adventure here on Planet Earth.


I saw some hope yesterday about extending unemployment and the rest and after what I read today they are miles apart again, I give up even reading the BS, anything is possible but really have very little hope, you know the US government only seems to do well for the people when the shit hitting the fan so maybe because we are there.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Young Kim said:


> glib remarks and pity comebacks on all the posts.


That's only because ... in the immortal words of Mister T (of A Team fame, not the one here) it is because I 'pity you foo's."


Young Kim said:


> hope that you will be around and living healthy for many decades to come.


Yea, me too. 
I got way, way too much to do to die. I just don't have the time to lay around for eternity. 
If I lived to 150 I couldn't get it all done.
But, to me, the trick is not just living; but "living healthy".
I can still chase mom around, and even catch her once in a while.

Six years ago I sold the big house. Smart move
It was getting harder to get her cornered. She had too many places to run and I just wasn't quick enough.
If we'd of kept that house I would have had to hobble her - shoot her in the foot or something.
We have a 1300 sq foot 3/2 now, and I can get her corralled.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

UberBastid said:


> I can still chase mom around, and even catch her once in a while.
> It was getting harder to get her cornered. She had too many places to run and I just wasn't quick enough.


Lol, at the above. U never disappoint! :wink:


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Young Kim said:


> Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern... I have been posting actively since the pandemic hit a year ago (to share stories and relieve stress), and have been working continuously, talking to pax about the UI benefits and stimulus. Personally, I do not and did not get a government check, and if there is another stimulus bill passed, I won't qualify. But, I am very happy for my fellow ants who received it (or are still receiving it). As I read these message boards, it was by the grace of God that many got a well deserved rest (and protection from exposure to the virus).
> 
> For myself, even though I did not receive a check and drove throughout the year, I noticed that when the first stimulus hit, there was a huge increase in surges on UberX and UE orders. Then when the 600/week hit, another boom for me as a driver. Then yet another when Trump signed the 300/week for a month I think. Now that it all dried up, I see that business is lacking. There are still ample requests, but... a lot of very low UberEats offers ($2.50), non-existent surge (except Thanksgiving), and again very long pickups.
> 
> ...


World Bank will just get us into a War & collect REPARATIONS for 50 years when we LOSE 
Because we no Longer manufacture ANYTHING !

America will become accustomed to repaying debt after we Lose the war.
We will live like East Germans did.

We will probably pay Communist China .
And become an Occupied Country.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

tohunt4me said:


> America will become accustomed to repaying debt after we Lose the war.
> We will live like East Germans did.
> 
> We will probably pay Communist China .
> And become an Occupied Country.


@tohunt4me my long lost brother. I really hope your dire prediction does not ring true! That is one of the bleakest outlooks ... Even for you my bro!


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## Uberdriver2710 (Jul 15, 2015)

As someone who's lived on this planet for 47 years...

Bitcoin solves this problem.

It is the only escape for me, and many other people.


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

Young Kim said:


> Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern... I have been posting actively since the pandemic hit a year ago (to share stories and relieve stress), and have been working continuously, talking to pax about the UI benefits and stimulus. Personally, I do not and did not get a government check, and if there is another stimulus bill passed, I won't qualify. But, I am very happy for my fellow ants who received it (or are still receiving it). As I read these message boards, it was by the grace of God that many got a well deserved rest (and protection from exposure to the virus).
> 
> For myself, even though I did not receive a check and drove throughout the year, I noticed that when the first stimulus hit, there was a huge increase in surges on UberX and UE orders. Then when the 600/week hit, another boom for me as a driver. Then yet another when Trump signed the 300/week for a month I think. Now that it all dried up, I see that business is lacking. There are still ample requests, but... a lot of very low UberEats offers ($2.50), non-existent surge (except Thanksgiving), and again very long pickups.
> 
> ...


It only matters if you have a stash of money under the matters (or in bubber's case, under the driver's seat?... oh wait, bubber and stash of cash in one sentence ...hahahah yeah right)



wallae said:


> ....
> I was shocked how gold and silver were crushed with the rest of the market. I came out doing very well but I sure took some bruising trying to find the bottom in silver


Margin gotta be paid... when the stocks went down, and margin calls were rampant... gotta sell gold to pay for margin.


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## Tampa Bay Hauler (May 2, 2019)

Young Kim said:


> Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern... I have been posting actively since the pandemic hit a year ago (to share stories and relieve stress), and have been working continuously, talking to pax about the UI benefits and stimulus. Personally, I do not and did not get a government check, and if there is another stimulus bill passed, I won't qualify. But, I am very happy for my fellow ants who received it (or are still receiving it). As I read these message boards, it was by the grace of God that many got a well deserved rest (and protection from exposure to the virus).
> 
> For myself, even though I did not receive a check and drove throughout the year, I noticed that when the first stimulus hit, there was a huge increase in surges on UberX and UE orders. Then when the 600/week hit, another boom for me as a driver. Then yet another when Trump signed the 300/week for a month I think. Now that it all dried up, I see that business is lacking. There are still ample requests, but... a lot of very low UberEats offers ($2.50), non-existent surge (except Thanksgiving), and again very long pickups.
> 
> ...


 I don't see a crash coming because of stimulus money. All the nations of Earth are doing it if capable.
I do see a Big Mac combo at $19.99.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

franksoprano said:


> In US yesterday 203,737 new cases and 2,833 deaths, almost 3,000 people died yesterday and this Irish boozer Mitchell McConnell has reduced his position on stimulus spending from 500 billion to around 300 billion, now lets talk about the greaseball Nancy Pelosi with out her stupidity with negotiating many of us would have had a fairly decent holiday but she declines 1.9 trillion around 6 weeks ago that we would have in our pockets right now and the US death numbers would be much better, you got blood on your hands you POS.
> 
> This Federal Government and the POS greedy ass Americans who run it are a disgrace to humanity, I hope you burn for this.


@franksoprano my bro, lol. That gif of basically a depication of Hell is gonna give nightmares haha. But yeah, I do agree with you, policymakers have dragged their feet so much and now the holidays are gonna be a disaster for America. So as I wrote in my OP I agree with a massive stimulus to be passed ASAP. What I did want to emphasize is that we all must be braced for the long term impact as such. Imagine is a group of us are on a ship sailing across an ocean long ago. And say there is a storm and somehow we needed to cut away one of our main sails because it got tangled... Nobody is disagreeing about needing to do this action, but that necessity results in us having serious problems down the road (journeying without a main sail).



Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> I don't see a crash coming because of stimulus money. All the nations of Earth are doing it if capable.
> I do see a Big Mac combo at $19.99.


Very good prognostication... There may finally be significant inflation on the radar.

But will our Uber finally raise driver rates? Please? Dara, will you please finally raise our DRIVER PAYOUTS (mileage/waiting rates)?!



Uberdriver2710 said:


> As someone who's lived on this planet for 47 years...
> 
> Bitcoin solves this problem.
> 
> It is the only escape for me, and many other people.


@Uberdriver2710, Bitcoin is something I've owned for a very long time. I bought a little bit so long ago after I read about Silk Road going down (which was an anonymous on-line drug marketplace)...and no I don't and haven't bought drugs online. I just thought it was so interesting and intriguing that such a payment method could exist. I sold out long ago and made a little money. Then I bought more around 2017 and rode the volatility the past few years. A highly speculative investment, but I suppose it is one more tool to protect purchasing power.


----------



## Driving With A Purpose (Jul 28, 2020)

wallae said:


> I was shocked how gold and silver were crushed with the rest of the market. I came out doing very well but I sure took some bruising trying to find the bottom in silver


I personally think the reason silver went down so much and so rapidly around the beginning of the pandemic was because you had lots of aggressive traders (for hedge funds and others) who LOVE silver.

This may sound counterintuitive. Bear with me. The problem is they loved silver so much they were using margin (borrowing) to a heavy degree. As a former broker (and daytrader with my personal $), I can tell you the vast majority of margin calls are resolved by selling stock rather than bringing in additional cash. So those who REALLY like silver (Futures, SLV, etc.) are forced to sell even though they don't want to.

This creates a great opportunity for those who don't get seduced by margin and can afford to buy more of something when it goes down, say, 20-30%.

When gold went above $400ish for the first time in a long time (ca. 2004 if memory serves) I kept buying gold mining stocks and was profitable only about 50% of the time with my trades, which was lousy given the situation. I studied my trades heavily and talked to others I respected and changed just one thing.

Rather than buy a miner once and cut my losses before they got out of hand, I took a smaller initial position and was prepared to buy the same stock 4-6 times as it kept going down. As long as there wasn't something really wrong (i.e., bankruptcy, fraud charges, etc.), I figured the stock was on sale and bought more.

Guess what? Over my next roughly 120 trades of mining stocks, I had only 6 losses! That one change to my trading style made a huge difference! The key is that after buying a stock even 5-6 times, you shouldn't have a huge percentage of your net worth tied up in that one stock. There is no one percentage that is good for everyone.

If you have a 2-hour meeting or Zoom call and find yourself very anxious to take a "pee break" to check the stock price, that may be a sign you have too much of that stock.

I have done many thousands of trades with my own personal money. I think I can honestly say this one skill has been far and away the most valuable one I've learned.

P.S. I used to spend thousands of dollars on commissions trading stocks each year. One year I remember spending over $40k in commissions. Now commissions are FREE at a number of brokers. So you have an advantage over those like me who did lots of trading back in the day!

Good luck to all.



mbd said:


> https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/cone
> 
> When mkt goes down 30% in one month, of course all stocks will go down ... Mkt never went down that much in one month, in the history of the mkt.&#128077;


Actually the market went down OVER 20% in one day on 10/19/87. I remember that day very well, even though I didn't own stocks then.

And the Flash Crash (5/6/10) was even more impressive with the Dow shedding over 10% in mere minutes in the middle of the day only to come right back. Look at some of the YouTube videos with Jim Cramer of CNBC and others. They are fascinating to watch!


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## 808-702drgn (Oct 4, 2020)

Metals are losing marketcap to bitcoin. Go down the rabbit hole and learn about it.


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## Crosbyandstarsky (Feb 4, 2018)

Young Kim said:


> Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern... I have been posting actively since the pandemic hit a year ago (to share stories and relieve stress), and have been working continuously, talking to pax about the UI benefits and stimulus. Personally, I do not and did not get a government check, and if there is another stimulus bill passed, I won't qualify. But, I am very happy for my fellow ants who received it (or are still receiving it). As I read these message boards, it was by the grace of God that many got a well deserved rest (and protection from exposure to the virus).
> 
> For myself, even though I did not receive a check and drove throughout the year, I noticed that when the first stimulus hit, there was a huge increase in surges on UberX and UE orders. Then when the 600/week hit, another boom for me as a driver. Then yet another when Trump signed the 300/week for a month I think. Now that it all dried up, I see that business is lacking. There are still ample requests, but... a lot of very low UberEats offers ($2.50), non-existent surge (except Thanksgiving), and again very long pickups.
> 
> ...


You just really wanted to attention, didn't you


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## Jst1dreamr (Apr 25, 2019)

808-702drgn said:


> Metals are losing marketcap to bitcoin. Go down the rabbit hole and learn about it.


Never gonna happen.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Crosbyandstarsky said:


> You just really wanted to attention, didn't you


@Crosbyandstarsky, Nope... not "attention" for simply "attention's sake". It is not proper and rather a waste of time for anyone to garner attention for no reason. Rather, after following the message boards for very long time and writing just a couple of posts (I joined UP.net 5 years ago), I became very active about a year ago. I felt that during such a strange time, my writing and observations could help elicit thoughtful discussions that may help other members.

You can view my earliest writings which sought to really help others navigate through this extraordinary period by giving advice which I thought could help serve others. One of my most "thumbed up" posts was in regard to warning others not to "double dip" and collect UI and earn RS monies at the same time which could land them in legal trouble. In the "Stories" section, I endeavored to included personal stories of my Rideshare adventures which I thought could be entertaining and help new drivers understand what they may encounter.

Please understand that even if you do not agree with my writings, I truly do believe that I have the best intentions for other UP.net members. I don't want attention "personally", but I do enjoy a scintillating discussion and sharing meaningful encounters with other members. I only have love in my heart, and wish to share that and spread that joy with others. Be well and blessed Crosbyandstarsky, and may God keep you safe and healthy from the pandemic and its fallout...


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## ANThonyBoreDaneCook (Oct 7, 2019)

Me attempting to get through an @Young Kim post


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

808-702drgn said:


> Metals are losing marketcap to bitcoin. Go down the rabbit hole and learn about it.


@808-702drgn , indeed they are. Money flows and many sources do indicate that... that Bitcoin is sucking money from the metals. Bitcoin is truly a fascinating thing. I cannot and will NOT recommend it anyone, because I feel that it is WAY too volatile for anything other than an interesting speculation. But I categorically disagree with those that say that Bitcoin is a pyramid scam. The math and complex computer science, the advanced cryptography algorithms involving "proof of work", the anonymity (mostly), shows that to me there is real substance there. Again, I am not recommending this as an investment to anyone, but I do believe those that those who are so inclined to embrace risk could merit a deeper investigation.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

franksoprano said:


> In US yesterday 203,737 new cases and 2,833 deaths, almost 3,000 people died yesterday and this Irish boozer Mitchell McConnell has reduced his position on stimulus spending from 500 billion to around 300 billion, now lets talk about the greaseball Nancy Pelosi with out her stupidity with negotiating many of us would have had a fairly decent holiday but she declines 1.9 trillion around 6 weeks ago that we would have in our pockets right now and the US death numbers would be much better, you got blood on your hands you POS.
> 
> This Federal Government and the POS greedy ass Americans who run it are a disgrace to humanity, I hope you burn for this.


Pelosi is using ( USING) COVID RELIEF FUNDS FOR LEVERAGE IN THE SENATE RUNOFF RACES.

OBVIOUS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.


----------



## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

ANThonyBoreDaneCook said:


> Me attempting to get through an @Young Kim post


@ANThonyBoreDaneCook my old friend! You again! Aren't you supposed to be calling me "Ian". Hey did you check out any of my magic tricks that I made for other UP.net members? :smiles: (and stop picking on me! You are so mean!!) :roflmao:

Here are just two:













tohunt4me said:


> Pelosi is using ( USING) COVID RELIEF FUNDS FOR LEVERAGE IN THE SENATE RUNOFF RACES.
> 
> OBVIOUS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.


@tohunt4me my dear brother, indeed that is the case. Pelosi is a career politician who I don't think had a real job in her life! Everything is "quid pro quo" in her world. I would be frightened to meet her in person, as I am sure that she would be judging me and either wanting me to do something for her in return, OR wondering what I may want from her. I think the life of a politician would be so miserable.

I had a dream once that I was Barack Obama! It was a nightmare!! I remember in the dream that I had to read everything so carefully on the teleprompter during a meeting, and then I had to during the follow up interview watch and rehearse EVERY SINGLE SYLLABLE and thought in my head before I uttered it...knowing that whatever I said would echo in time and across space.

May the Universe protect your sharp wit and funny often caustic sense of humor during this historical time!


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## 808-702drgn (Oct 4, 2020)

Jst1dreamr said:


> Never gonna happen.


:biggrin::laugh::thumbup: It's happening right now, go look at bitcoins rise, sure metals are rising too but that's because they are printing trillions, hyperinflation, but new investors especially millenials and now the banks and wall street are getting involved with crypto exchanges becoming banks obtaining real money licenses. If bitcoin equals golds market cap which is around 7-8 trillion, 1 bitcoin will be worth somewhere from 300k-500k a coin. Actually found this cool article from 2017, wish I


Young Kim said:


> @808-702drgn , indeed they are. Money flows and many sources do indicate that... that Bitcoin is sucking money from the metals. Bitcoin is truly a fascinating thing. I cannot and will NOT recommend it anyone, because I feel that it is WAY too volatile for anything other than an interesting speculation. But I categorically disagree with those that say that Bitcoin is a pyramid scam. The math and complex computer science, the advanced cryptography algorithms involving "proof of work", the anonymity (mostly), shows that to me there is real substance there. Again, I am not recommending this as an investment to anyone, but I do believe those that those who are so inclined to embrace risk could merit a deeper investigation.


I understand, yes bitcoin is very volatile as it is very early, the marketcap is around 360 billion give or take so a few big whales could possibly manipulate prices, that's why it isn't smart to try and trade it. If you want to invest buy and hold longer term. I'm not giving any financial advice or recommending it either, a person has to decide for themself what they will do to protect their savings when everything is being devalued with money prrinting (hyperinflation). Soon #1 at mcdonalds 14.99 not supersized. coming in 2021


----------



## Soldiering (Jan 21, 2019)

Jst1dreamr said:


> You are going to find out soon how third world countries survive. The U.S.A. will find out that all of those countries we are always giving billions of dollars to will not feel the same about giving to America when we are broke. Soon after our defense department has been gutted so Biden can give more to these ungrateful entitled free loaders and then we can't even defend our land. When the new government weather it is Russian/Chinese/Iranian or North Korean that will rule over America will straighten them out.


Bro you are preaching too DEAD people, most of the OPs here have no idea how too be patriotic and love/defend AMERICA. Im just content I've gotten right with my Creator Jesus Christ. Open your spiritual eyes people.....


----------



## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Driving With A Purpose said:


> I personally think the reason silver went down so much and so rapidly around the beginning of the pandemic was because you had lots of aggressive traders (for hedge funds and others) who LOVE silver.... ... I can tell you the vast majority of margin calls are resolved by selling stock rather than bringing in additional cash. So those who REALLY like silver (Futures, SLV, etc.) are forced to sell even though they don't want to.
> 
> This creates a great opportunity for those who don't get seduced by margin and can afford to buy more of something when it goes down, say, 20-30%.


@Driving With A Purpose , those are the wisest words ever spoken by you as a SEASONED veteran trader. *Margin*=*Kills* (an investment account) is equal to *Smoking*=*Kills* (and causes cancer). A good trader not using margin would have cleaned up. Using margin though this year in silver, even with the massive gains, would have seen the volatility destroy them if they used margin...



Soldiering said:


> Bro you are preaching too DEAD people, most of the OPs here have no idea how too be patriotic and love/defend AMERICA. Im just content I've gotten right with my Creator Jesus Christ. Open your spiritual eyes people.....


@Soldiering my Christian brother, I hesitate to speak about my faith in Christ because I am afraid that many may completely turn off quickly. But we share a frontier...


----------



## Soldiering (Jan 21, 2019)

Young Kim said:


> @Driving With A Purpose , those are the wisest words ever spoken by you as a SEASONED veteran trader. *Margin*=*Kills* (an investment account) is equal to *Smoking*=*Kills* (and causes cancer). A good trader not using margin would have cleaned up. Using margin though this year in silver, even with the massive gains, would have seen the volatility destroy them if they used margin...
> 
> 
> @Soldiering my Christian brother, I hesitate to speak about my faith in Christ because I am afraid that many may completely turn off quickly. But we share a frontier...


He has given me a peace beyond my understanding. Only took me 48 years of drinking drugging an whoring and I am grateful for that. I knew you were my brother in Christ. Kim, based on your posts, it shows through.


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## jeanocelot (Sep 2, 2016)

Young Kim said:


> Working nights, I have a lot to think about, and tonight coming back from my last long trip from Boilingbrook, IL back to Niles, IL (where I live) I became worried that another giant stimulus would elevate the U.S. national debt to levels that may wreck the U.S. Dollar. I am wondering if any other ants share this concern...


I'm only an ant--wannabe (ride is too old ), but I don't have a problem with the USD tanking. The main problem with the USA economy is that workers in non-first-world countries can do a comparable job for a lot less - and thus economic theory would say that the USD is vastly overvalued. Any devaluation of the USD would mean that such American workers that are getting paid too much (i.e., Trump voters) would end up getting less on a global-wage scale, while still getting the same amount in USD, which of course what they much use to pay for their rent, health care, credit-card debt, etc. The only folks that lose are those that are long in the USD or USD-denominated bonds and those that do not have to compete with foreign worker, such as health-care workers, rentiers & retirees (pun intended), as they end up getting the same amount of USD pay, but the stuff they buy gets more expensive.


----------



## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

jeanocelot said:


> I'm only an ant--wannabe (ride is too old ), but I don't have a problem with the USD tanking. The main problem with the USA economy is that workers in non-first-world countries can do a comparable job for a lot less - and thus economic theory would say that the USD is vastly overvalued. Any devaluation of the USD would mean that such American workers that are getting paid too much (i.e., Trump voters) would end up getting less on a global-wage scale, while still getting the same amount in USD, which of course what they much use to pay for their rent, health care, credit-card debt, etc. The only folks that lose are those that are long in the USD or USD-denominated bonds and those that do not have to compete with foreign worker, such as health-care workers, rentiers & retirees (pun intended), as they end up getting the same amount of USD pay, but the stuff they buy gets more expensive.


Good points, and it would be far better if the decent of the U.S. Dollar is gradual. If there is a sudden collapse (and since the USD is the world's reserve currency and hence most of the world debt is in USDs)...then disaster...


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## Raging Dumpster Fire (Sep 10, 2020)

Fusion_LUser said:


> Nobody in government and many of those who take the freebies don't care about what will happen in the future. That's the problem of somebody else's children's grandchildren to worry about. They will be the ones who are paying for today's greed.
> 
> Its not a matter of if but when will we have a total financial collapse. 1 Year? 5 Years? 50 Years? Your guess is as good as mine but no sane person can argue the way things are going is sustainable.
> 
> One thing for certain whatever the date of a total financial collapse takes place it has been moved up drastically with the apparent new norm that lockdowns are here to stay. That fight was lost back in March and now there will be one reason after another on why we must shut everything down.


Lol, this is quite possibly the most stupid thing I have ever read. &#129315;

Total financial collapse, huh? Tell me, professor, is Harvard missing an economic genius? Or Stanford? Or maybe MIT? ROFLAMAO
Why don't you tell us all about your total financial apocalypse.... will people still accept money in your total financial collapse? Or will we go back to barter and beads? Will there be zombies too? Sure.... we'll just go back to being cavemen LOL.

I love these forums where people post garbage about things that they have no idea what they are talking about.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Raging Dumpster Fire said:


> Lol, this is quite possibly the most stupid thing I have ever read. &#129315;
> 
> Total financial collapse, huh? Tell me, professor, is Harvard missing an economic genius? Or Stanford? Or maybe MIT? ROFLAMAO
> Why don't you tell us all about your total financial apocalypse.... will people still accept money in your total financial collapse? Or will we go back to barter and beads? Will there be zombies too? Sure.... we'll just go back to being cavemen LOL.
> ...


While I do agree with you that thinking of a total financial collapse might be a little too much, I think the gist of what Fusion Uber said was that there could be dire consequences in the future if we don't get our national debt under some semblance of control. It is true that he used hyperbole. but people often do that when they're very concerned about a situation. so I disagree with you that it's the stupidest thing that anyone has ever said.


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

Raging Dumpster Fire said:


> Lol, this is quite possibly the most stupid thing I have ever read. &#129315;
> 
> Total financial collapse, huh? Tell me, professor, is Harvard missing an economic genius? Or Stanford? Or maybe MIT? ROFLAMAO
> Why don't you tell us all about your total financial apocalypse.... will people still accept money in your total financial collapse? Or will we go back to barter and beads? Will there be zombies too? Sure.... we'll just go back to being cavemen LOL.
> ...


We are looking forward to the needed free cheese, it's about to happen maybe today...........

Because of this I will stay home for another 4 months safe and see where this dangerous virus is going.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/congressional-leaders-near-deal-covid-154900531.html
What is going on with US? Yesterday 301,000 new cases and 3,001 deaths, I mean India with 4 times our population only 25k new cases, what a cluster pluck.......................... Far too many hard headed, arrogant aholes running about................ Last night a large restuarant where I live packed and no one with masks on, ha ha ha...........................


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

Raging Dumpster Fire said:


> Lol, this is quite possibly the most stupid thing I have ever read. &#129315;


WOO-HOO! I'm #1! I want to thank all the others who made this grand title possible!

OK Gordon Gekko, I'm sure you are just giddy seeing how TSLA is up and Cousin Eddy was totally memorized by your financial wizardry while stuffing his face with stuffing at the Thanksgiving dinner table but anyone who thinks our increasing debt level is sustainable is nothing more than another expert on the internet.

Nobody has a plan to reduce the 27,000,000,000,000+ debt that grows more an more each day. Even with a strong economy the debt is not sustainable. And with the new normal where lockdowns will now be a regular occurring event this will further exacerbate a precarious financial economy.

But what the hell, as long as those stimulus checks keep coming and the extra $$$ each week continue who cares about the massive debt that is being forced upon future generations to deal with?


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

Raging Dumpster Fire said:


> Lol, this is quite possibly the most stupid thing I have ever read. &#129315;
> 
> Total financial collapse, huh? Tell me, professor, is Harvard missing an economic genius? Or Stanford? Or maybe MIT? ROFLAMAO
> Why don't you tell us all about your total financial apocalypse.... will people still accept money in your total financial collapse? Or will we go back to barter and beads? Will there be zombies too? Sure.... we'll just go back to being cavemen LOL.
> ...


#totallynotasock


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

I think they just divided this stimulus into two, one now and another one in March 😛
This was just a Xmas gift. Next one will be trillion plus. They know that majority will just blow the money, so why not split into two😉


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## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

It will not be a sudden total collapse for the dollar.. It is more like a gradual process.. National debt is not a big deal right now.. What matters are the third world's per capita/income are rising higher and higher each year to the point that it takes more U.S dollars to exchange for imported goods.

Without third world countries, the U.S dollar worth nothing because we aint producing our own goods and we dont want
to work like a robot..

No Americans want to sit or stand for 10 hours straight for a few bucks an hour.. These images you won't see in USA because we are too good for that.. WE just print more money to buy imports because third world countries are willing to accept them..

In the future, third world countries will become first or second world economies.. that is when U.S dollar is no longer the premier world currency... it is a disaster for the U.S ..


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

bethswannns said:


> It will not be a sudden total collapse for the dollar.. It is more like a gradual process.. National debt is not a big deal right now.. What matters are the third world's per capita/income are rising higher and higher each year to the point that it takes more U.S dollars to exchange for imported goods.
> 
> Without third world countries, the U.S dollar worth nothing because we aint producing our own goods and we dont want
> to work like a robot..
> ...


Looks like a Chinese company operating out of Africa. Chinese manufacturers setting up more shops in Africa due to the middle class uprising in China.
Had a pax who was doing pig business in China, and it got expensive ... he shifted to Romania &#128580;


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## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

Yes the analogy is the same.


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## UberChiefPIT (Apr 13, 2020)

mbd said:


> If the market tanks then it will be catastrophic...
> I picked up a pax who moved out to the country side and reduced his property tax by 90%... he leases his land to some farmer &#128540;all his friends trying to do the same trick but not much properties available.
> Then another pax lived inside a office suite/warehouse He was paying 500$ per month&#128540;


$500/mo is standard rent for an actual decent, 1-bedroom apartment with a gym, pool, etc on property...at least where I live.

But ya...$500 to live in the corner of a warehouse rocks! and stuff


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## Raging Dumpster Fire (Sep 10, 2020)

Fusion_LUser said:


> WOO-HOO! I'm #1! I want to thank all the others who made this grand title possible!
> 
> OK Gordon Gekko, I'm sure you are just giddy seeing how TSLA is up and Cousin Eddy was totally memorized by your financial wizardry while stuffing his face with stuffing at the Thanksgiving dinner table but anyone who thinks our increasing debt level is sustainable is nothing more than another expert on the internet.
> 
> ...


Lol, whatever you say professor.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Just to get back on track with the free cheese we are not getting retro payments in the upcoming agreement.


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

franksoprano said:


> We are looking forward to the needed free cheese, it's about to happen maybe today...........
> 
> Because of this I will stay home for another 4 months safe and see where this dangerous virus is going.
> 
> ...


Unbelievable 3,500 people died from virus yesterday with 250,000 new cases, I just can't even believe this and Congress shit or get off of the pot with stimulus.....................


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## Emilee (Aug 16, 2020)

Mole said:


> Just to get back on track with the free cheese we are not getting retro payments in the upcoming agreement.


I'll bet they make the $300 weekly retroactive to December 1st, and extend PUA to April.

In other words, an extra $900-1,200 in back unemployment, depending on when the payment is made. Just in time for Christmas, hopefully 

I also expect they will hand out another $1,200 stimulus check for everyone.


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## dacheeese (Dec 14, 2020)

I think they will vote on the bill tomorrow.. After the president sign it, it will take 2 weeks (maybe) for us to receive the 🤑🤑🤑🤑


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## IRME4EVER (Feb 17, 2020)

Emilee said:


> I'll bet they make the $300 weekly retroactive to December 1st, and extend PUA to April.
> 
> In other words, an extra $900-1,200 in back unemployment, depending on when the payment is made. Just in time for Christmas, hopefully :smiles:
> 
> I also expect they will hand out another $1,200 stimulus check for everyone.


 Not holding my breath. Wait and see!!


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

mbd said:


> I think they just divided this stimulus into two, one now and another one in March &#128539;
> This was just a Xmas gift. Next one will be trillion plus. They know that majority will just blow the money, so why not split into two&#128521;


I've been working throughout this year and through the pandemic without interruption and every time there's a stimulus there's a huge jump in orders and ride requests. Like I remember one night when it was particularly busy and I wondered why, and then someone had told me that everyone got their stimulus checks yesterday...

I'm really hoping for everyone's sake, that the stimulus comes soon because I'm so sick of getting $2 Uber Eats requests.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Young Kim said:


> We are well over 100% Total Debt to GDP. I studied a lot of economics in college, and a professor currently teaching at the university I went to named Richard Thaler (who won the Nobel Prize in 2017), discussed in recent interviews that we are in the most dangerous economic environment and "everyone is whistling past the graveyard." I was remembering his and many other economists I follow that if another stimulus bill is passed (which is going to be many trillions by the new (likely) Biden Administration), the U.S. dollar could crumble because of the total debt would be crushing. As the Federal Reserve will most certainly not choose the way of default and will "print" and "print", I can only assume hyperinflationary forces are approaching.
> 
> Recall that there are two types of debt: Consumptive and Productive. If someone borrows money to be a good ant and drive Uber, that is "Productive debt." Debt used to repay principal and interest is "good debt". But a lot of the type of debt the U.S. is accumulating due to the massive stimulus including UI is "Consumptive debt." This merely brings future consumption into the present, and the debt overhang causes the "bang point" to be hit where a currency rapidly loses value, as the government cannot manage the interest payments. While I am all for the helping of people now, as I feel it is the moral, righteous, and appropriate thing to do (with a massive stimulus), I am growing alarmingly concerned as to what this could mean farther on down the line.


Kim, in this comment I am going to wrap back around to your original question. My answer of course yes, I'm worried. We don't have the money for these programs, so one way or another there are and will be great dislocations in the economy for some time due to these stimulus programs.

However, I learned something over the past couple of weeks that has made me recalculate how quickly the chickens will some home to roost. It has to do with how quickly the USD could enter hyperinflation. Namely, the Fed doesn't print money. You heard me right. *The Fed does not print money*. Now you are a smart guy and there are many smart people on this board who may well already know this. I didn't.

I started getting interested in economic theory clear back to the mid 2000s. A fundamental principal was introduced to me that the Fed has the ability to monetize the debt (create money out of thin air to pay down debt). It doesn't. Not in the way I understood it does any way. It is true that the Fed can and does purchase bonds from the Treasury. Although actually, the Treasury sells the bonds at auction to bidders, including several "dealer" qualified US banks. So the Treasury may sell a bond to, say, JP Morgan. Morgan pays the Treasury for the bond. Left there, the Treasury pays the bond holder back over time, with interest.

The Fed can step in and buy that bond from Morgan. BUT, the Fed does not pay Morgan for the bond. That is what I did not know. Instead the fed deposits the funds that pay for the bond into an account for Morgan. The funds are in Morgan's name. BUT, Morgan can't use the money. The only thing Morgan can do with the funds is borrow against them. At interest. Plus Morgan must have adequate reserves on hand. So it's not straightforward.

Per the 1913 Federal Reserve Act, the Fed cannot flat out print money. And THAT is why we did not see hyperinflation when the government borrowed 2-3 trillion dollars to deal with the 2008 Great Financial Crisis. And that is at least part of the answer as to why inflation has not yet gotten out of control so far in this crisis. The point made in the arguments I've been reviewing is that if the Fed actually started printing money, by either disregarding its charter (which it is already doing by purchasing junk bonds), or if Congress modified the Federal Reserve Act. Unless and until that happens hyperinflation will not happen (per these arguments).

That certainly does not mean that severe economic damage cannot occur with they way things are currently being done. The USD certainly is weaker, and the skyrocketing price of some commodities, most importantly copper, is testament to that. But although we continue to kick the can down the road, there is a chance that deflation rather than inflation may be in the cards for at least 2021.

There are of course many moving parts, and opinions on this topic differ. However, the argument presented may explain why after so many trillions being borrowed, the US has yet to see _serious_ inflation. Here are some links to some pretty smart people who are making these points:


----------



## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

_Tron_ said:


> Kim, in this comment I am going to wrap back around to your original question. My answer of course yes, I'm worried. We don't have the money for these programs, so one way or another there are and will be great dislocations in the economy for some time due to these stimulus programs.
> 
> However, I learned something over the past couple of weeks that has made me recalculate how quickly the chickens will some home to roost. It has to do with how quickly the USD could enter hyperinflation. Namely, the Fed doesn't print money. You heard me right. *The Fed does not print money*. Now you are a smart guy and there are many smart people on this board who may well already know this. I didn't.
> 
> ...


Yes yes yes I love it! Lacey hunt is actually one of my favorite economists! As is Brent Johnson! I've listened to so many of their webcasts... I subscribe and read lacey hunt's hoisington capital management's (where Dr. Hunt works) quarterly reports... And the dollar milkshake theory (from Brent Johnson) makes a lot of sense too. I'm well aware of what you described. As you said that's scenario that actually lacey hunt talks about a lot could unfold and you're right that's the reason why we haven't seen any inflation.

But as you wrote there's a lot of moving parts, we don't know when the labor market will start to firm....that could be a big factor in possible hyper- inflation. Dr. Hunt is still in the deflation camp, as he has been for decades... We shall see. Peter schiff, another one of my favorite economists is in the hyperinflation camp. Let's see who wins. But thank you for bringing up very good points that are based in sound economic theory. It's so wonderful to talk to you about stocks and the economy @_Tron_ my brother!!

I have a wonderful Christmas and happy New year to you! 



Emilee said:


> I'll bet they make the $300 weekly retroactive to December 1st, and extend PUA to April.
> 
> In other words, an extra $900-1,200 in back unemployment, depending on when the payment is made. Just in time for Christmas, hopefully :smiles:
> 
> I also expect they will hand out another $1,200 stimulus check for everyone.


I sure hope so! Even though I will not be part of getting any government checks, I'm so sick of making $2 an hour... All through the year as I mentioned in other posts whenever there was a stimulus check, my Uber income shot up like 4th of july firework rally...

I just remember back in march or april I don't know when people started getting the checks I started getting surge rides... and it was busy one after another with stacked pings.. right now out here making $2 an hour, I feel like I'm living or being in prison in a North Korean concentration camp that my grandfather used to talk to me about. Then when the stimulus started running out, it was dead like I was in a cemetery, and then when the 300 per week kicked in again I saw more fireworks...

Now all I hear are crickets...


----------



## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

The thing about Schiff is, he's incredibly locked in to his thesis. He's so invested in it that I'm not sure at this point if he could adapt to new information.


----------



## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

_Tron_ said:


> The thing about Schiff is, he's incredibly locked in to his thesis. He's so invested in it that I'm not sure at this point if he could adapt to new information.


I feel like you're my brother from another mother...


----------



## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

Young Kim said:


> Yes yes yes I love it! Lacey hunt is actually one of my favorite economists! As is Brent Johnson! I've listened to so many of their webcasts... I subscribe and read lacey hunt's hoisington capital management's (where Dr. Hunt works) quarterly reports... And the dollar milkshake theory (from Brent Johnson) makes a lot of sense too. I'm well aware of what you described. As you said that's scenario that actually lacey hunt talks about a lot could unfold and you're right that's the reason why we haven't seen any inflation.
> 
> But as you wrote there's a lot of moving parts, we don't know when the labor market will start to firm....that could be a big factor in possible hyper- inflation. Dr. Hunt is still in the deflation camp, as he has been for decades... We shall see. Peter schiff, another one of my favorite economists is in the hyperinflation camp. Let's see who wins. But thank you for bringing up very good points that are based in sound economic theory. It's so wonderful to talk to you about stocks and the economy @_Tron_ my brother!!
> 
> ...


they will keep same interest rate until 2023, money will keep going into the stock market . TSLA looks low priced compared to some of these run up stocks.&#128517; Many of these companies don't have much revenue, but have billion dollar+ cap. They are all raising more cash, thanks to Robinhooders.
This months snack bar special is the Bitcoin run up , target 400,000&#129394;
Psychedelic stock's with least possible revenue worth billions

Dog food SPAC special at billion dollars .
20 times sales is cheap &#128517;

The outlook for the economy remains extraordinarily uncertain," Fed Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell said during his press conference after the Fed kept the federal funds rate near zero. Still, he assured investors that the central bank has the flexibility to provide more accommodation and remains open to increasing the amount of asset purchases or buying securities with longer-term maturities in the future. The Fed expects the economy should perform strongly in H2 2021 due to the vaccines being distributed now. For the time being, he sees more fiscal support is needed. The market responded to Powell's reassurances with the S&P 500 reaching session highs on Wednesday.


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## O-Side Uber (Jul 26, 2017)

The Covid craze is generating trillions of dollars . If each state is getting a piece of that , I’m sure the country will recover . We the people need help right now . They better announce a generous stimulus today because people are on the edge and it’s about to get ugly. 

These corrupt governors are most definitely being paid to keep their states locked down . It’s criminal !!! We are currently trying to recall Gavin Newsom in Cali.


----------



## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

O-Side Uber said:


> The Covid craze is generating trillions of dollars . If each state is getting a piece of that , I'm sure the country will recover . We the people need help right now . They better announce a generous stimulus today because people are on the edge and it's about to get ugly.
> 
> These corrupt governors are most definitely being paid to keep their states locked down . It's criminal !!! We are currently trying to recall Gavin Newsom in Cali.


Politicians - most of them make money on real estate deals on the side, get speaking fees, family members get to be directors, state/city projects commission's( illegal), and of course shell co's .
Problem will be automation + debt.
Banking sector is changing, layoffs... Square and PayPal changing human behavior.
Docusign
Zoom

Amzn Go, no checkout stores- only matter of time before Walmart does the same. Walmart will just need people stocking shelves, cashiers will be chopped.


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

_Tron_ said:


> The thing about Schiff is, he's incredibly locked in to his thesis. He's so invested in it that I'm not sure at this point if he could adapt to new information.


Schiff built his entire livelihood on the '08 crash. He can't change his mind now even if he wanted to.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

O-Side Uber said:


> The Covid craze is generating trillions of dollars . If each state is getting a piece of that , I'm sure the country will recover . We the people need help right now . They better announce a generous stimulus today because people are on the edge and it's about to get ugly.
> 
> These corrupt governors are most definitely being paid to keep their states locked down . It's criminal !!! We are currently trying to recall Gavin Newsom in Cali.


Yeah I agree with you now, let the future take care of itself. There's a fire in the kitchen that needs attention immediately right now. As I I've been reporting business is just so bad with the worst conditions....

my earnings are hovering around $2 an hour right now and I posted screenshots of why, where, and how. The customers are getting more and more demanding and annoying and everything about this "job" (more like a "joke") makes me feel like I'm a prisoner in a North korean concentration camp.

Now excuse me while I take my Uber earnings and go to the dollar store and buy myself a loaf of bread and some peanut butter and maybe a box of crackers....


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Emilee said:


> I'll bet they make the $300 weekly retroactive to December 1st, and extend PUA to April.
> 
> In other words, an extra $900-1,200 in back unemployment, depending on when the payment is made. Just in time for Christmas, hopefully :smiles:
> 
> I also expect they will hand out another $1,200 stimulus check for everyone.


From what I have read it will be from Dec 27 no retro pay and between $500-700 one time payment and $300 a week extra cheese for 12 to 16 weeks the one time payments will determine how long the extra unemployment money will last so it comes off the end report.


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## dacheeese (Dec 14, 2020)

I think of it as adaption. Survival of the fittest. If a country is crumbling, you need to move your asset and investment to elsewhere and you need to settle at another place. Just stay here while it last. Plan accordingly for your future.


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

dacheeese said:


> I think of it as adaption. Survival of the fittest. If a country is crumbling, you need to move your asset and investment to elsewhere and you need to settle at another place. Just stay here while it last. Plan accordingly for your future.


I am thinking Haiti or Cuba in a raft..................... I'm afraid I will hear kill the ******................. Have I been ostracized?


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## dacheeese (Dec 14, 2020)

Mole said:


> From what I have read it will be from Dec 27 no retro pay and between $500-700 one time payment and $300 a week extra cheese for 12 to 16 weeks the one time payments will determine how long the extra unemployment money will last so it comes off the end report.


I thought the Congress were going to vote for the bill today. I have a feeling that we will get our stimulus at the end of Jan..


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

dacheeese said:


> I thought the Congress were going to vote for the bill today. I have a feeling that we will get our stimulus at the end of Jan..


No the Dems tried to funnel 45 billion in to fema so they could buy new electric vehicles for Pismo Beach so they need to rewright things it's going in to the weekend.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Young Kim said:


> Yeah I agree with you now, let the future take care of itself. There's a fire in the kitchen that needs attention immediately right now. As I I've been reporting business is just so bad with the worst conditions....
> 
> my earnings are hovering around $2 an hour right now and I posted screenshots of why, where, and how. The customers are getting more and more demanding and annoying and everything about this "job" (more like a "joke") makes me feel like I'm a prisoner in a North korean concentration camp.
> 
> Now excuse me while I take my Uber earnings and go to the dollar store and buy myself a loaf of bread and some peanut butter and maybe a box of crackers....



















I guess this is the only place I'll be shopping at from now on with my $2 an hour income


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

Young Kim said:


> View attachment 535223
> View attachment 535225
> 
> 
> I guess this is the only place I'll be shopping at from now on with my $2 an hour income


Young Kim, my dear old friend you will be ok......................


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## dacheeese (Dec 14, 2020)

I keep skipping until I get the 10-15 dollar orders. It works all the time. I shop at dolla store all the time. It is my go-to place for detergent.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

bethswannns said:


> Without third world countries, the U.S dollar worth nothing because we aint producing our own goods and we dont want
> to work like a robot..


Manufacturing needs to come back to America, but I agree Americans are not about working like robots.

Our manufacturing needs to literally use robots.


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## Westerner (Dec 22, 2016)

GOP lawmaker twice blocks up-or-down vote on $1,200 stimulus checks (yahoo.com)

If the dollar tanks I'm curious who's currency they are going to use? Nobody trusts China and Europe is printing more money than we are. Can we say,,,second Great Depression?


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Trafficat said:


> Manufacturing needs to come back to America, but I agree Americans are not about working like robots.
> 
> Our manufacturing needs to literally use robots.
> 
> View attachment 535231


Automation pays really well.

Feels GOOD.


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## MikhailCA (Dec 8, 2019)

bethswannns said:


> It will not be a sudden total collapse for the dollar.. It is more like a gradual process.. National debt is not a big deal right now.. What matters are the third world's per capita/income are rising higher and higher each year to the point that it takes more U.S dollars to exchange for imported goods.
> 
> Without third world countries, the U.S dollar worth nothing because we aint producing our own goods and we dont want
> to work like a robot..
> ...


Why did you put a picture like that? The only reason why those people have their jobs is: they are currently cheaper than robots/electricity.



Young Kim said:


> makes me feel like I'm a prisoner in a North korean concentration camp.


North Korea used to live better than South Korea until the year of 1970, by the way.


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

MikhailCA said:


> Why did you put a picture like that? The only reason why those people have their jobs is: they are currently cheaper than robots/electricity.
> 
> 
> North Korea used to live better than South Korea until the year of 1970, by the way.


Very true. My grandpa was from the North, and Koreans wanted to go north before for better opportunities. Now it is reversed.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Westerner said:


> If the dollar tanks I'm curious who's currency they are going to use? Nobody trusts China and Europe is printing more money than we are. Can we say,,,second Great Depression?


That is the 64 trillion dollar question. For some years there has been talk of the IMF bank (International Monetary Fund) employing SDRs (Special Drawing Rights) to act as a sort of world currency (be afraid. be very afraid). But more recently the talk has moved toward a crypto currency solution.


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## MikhailCA (Dec 8, 2019)

Young Kim said:


> Very true. My grandpa was from the North, and Koreans wanted to go north before for better opportunities. Now it is reversed.


Sanctions from this country &#127482;&#127480; pretty much destroyed North Korea.


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## Emilee (Aug 16, 2020)

_Tron_ said:


> That is the 64 trillion dollar question. For some years there has been talk of the IMF bank (International Monetary Fund) employing SDRs (Special Drawing Rights) to act as a sort of world currency (be afraid. be very afraid). But more recently the talk has moved toward a crypto currency solution.


Something big is coming. Maybe crypto, maybe the whole system falls apart. Either way, things can't go on the way they've been going.

10+ years ago, there was the joke about the Fed deploying "helicopter money" to keep the economy going. 2020 was the year that helicopter money began dropping.

Helicopter money only works for so long. What comes after that is anyone's guess. Maybe crypto buys us years/decades. Maybe not. Maybe something else works.

But here's the real problem: Congress is currently negotiating an annual budget of $1.4 trillion... at the same time they are negotiating a stimulus of almost $1 trillion. That is laughable.

The national debt is at $28 trillion and counting. At this rate, we will be past $40 trillion within two years. If you do the math on the interest on these numbers, it is clear something will break in the near future. Let's hope the smart people have a plan


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## bethswannns (Mar 22, 2020)

MikhailCA said:


> Why did you put a picture like that? The only reason why those people have their jobs is: they are currently cheaper than robots/electricity.
> 
> 
> North Korea used to live better than South Korea until the year of 1970, by the way.


What is wrong with the picture. Our print money to exchange for the imported goods will not last forever. We used to shift 99% of our companies to China 99% during 90s and 2000.. Their salary increase dramatically, which caused alot of companies to shift to South East Asia now... In the next 10-20 years, when South East countries salary increase, we have no places to go... Then you will expect our inflation to skyrocket. This time the US dollar doesnt worth much..

Automation is not here yet.. As advanced as Tesla is, they still need people to run the machines, test the cars, inspection, deliver the cars to dealers etc.. They employed alot of people.

An automation society is when people don't have to work while everything are produced by robots and delivered to your front door by robots. It will take thousands of years to accomplish that.

One day, you can speak out into the air "I want an uber" then an autonomous uber (no driver, no steering wheel) will arrive at your front door and take you to the place you want to go .. This is what I called advancement


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## Westerner (Dec 22, 2016)

Emilee said:


> Something big is coming. Maybe crypto, maybe the whole system falls apart. Either way, things can't go on the way they've been going.
> 
> 10+ years ago, there was the joke about the Fed deploying "helicopter money" to keep the economy going. 2020 was the year that helicopter money began dropping.
> 
> ...


One big problem is our current economic system is unsustainable. Economic expansion based on debt, something we've been on for five decades now, will eventually collapse. Another problem is resources. Things are getting so expensive because of demand. The Earth no longer has what's necessary to support the American lifestyle for America, much less the rest of the world that wants it too.


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

Westerner said:


> One big problem is our current economic system is unsustainable. Economic expansion based on debt, something we've been on for five decades now, will eventually collapse. Another problem is resources. Things are getting so expensive because of demand. The Earth no longer has what's necessary to support the American lifestyle for America, much less the rest of the world that wants it too.


Time for the rich to pay up.........


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## Emilee (Aug 16, 2020)

Westerner said:


> One big problem is our current economic system is unsustainable. Economic expansion based on debt, something we've been on for five decades now, will eventually collapse. Another problem is resources. Things are getting so expensive because of demand. The Earth no longer has what's necessary to support the American lifestyle for America, much less the rest of the world that wants it too.


Imagine if the powerful people decided to do something about this issue, to ensure they had enough resources for themselves.

They might do something like... oh, I don't know... release a virus to kill off a good portion of the population and, at the same time, cause the rest of the population to be afraid of travel and use resources :smiles:


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## Westerner (Dec 22, 2016)

Emilee said:


> Imagine


IMAGINE. (Ultimate Mix, 2020) - John Lennon & The Plastic Ono Band (with the Flux Fiddlers) HD - YouTube


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

808-702drgn said:


> Metals are losing marketcap to bitcoin. Go down the rabbit hole and learn about it.


And, what happens to bitcoin when utilities are sporadic (like other third world countries) and computers that are created in China steal everything you own.
There is no law and order - cops are defunded. 
Streets are dark.

I find a 'dealer' who has five loaves of bread and a quart of scotch to sell.
You make him an offer of bit coins.
I make him an offer of silver coin, or a half a box of 30-06 ammo.

Who gets the bread and booze?

See ... you 'invest' in metals.
I don't.
I buy useable metals. Silver, ammo ... to a lesser extent gold.
Things I can readily trade for.

Price goes up; price goes down ... I don't care.



Young Kim said:


> While I do agree with you that thinking of a total financial collapse might be a little too much,


Do you think it can't happen?
It has happened before ya know, in recent history.

Once upon a time, a mere 20 years ago or so, there was a nation that was one of the wealthiest in the continent in which it resides. They were educated people; lots of doctors and engineers. They had smooth roads, modern hospitals, colleges, parks. Industry and commerce was strong. GDP that rivaled any country.
Then Socialism came along and convinced people about 'free money' and ... cheese. 
They spent all they had. The doctors and lawyers and engineers were the first to leave. They could afford to. There are complete neighborhoods in Florida of these wealthy expats.
Now, the poor people left behind starve. Diabetics are dying because they can't get insulin. The zoo's, once impressive are empty - the animals have been eaten.
Industry and commerce are almost zero.
Hunger is epidemic, the population has become much less healthy.

Welcome to Venezuela.

You don't think that can't happen here?


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Westerner said:


> IMAGINE. (Ultimate Mix, 2020) - John Lennon & The Plastic Ono Band (with the Flux Fiddlers) HD - YouTube


Here here!

That and one or two others from John make for a sort of template as to how we could run our affairs. The thing is, he was a little early. Still, ideals to strive for.

Listen, here's what it all comes down to. We must evolve. Mankind must evolve its consciousness. Be higher minded. Break free of being held prisoner by the ego. Until then it is an endless cycle of building up and tearing down. Trying out new forms of government. New forms of currency. Endless cycle.

We must transcend the ego. Ever since Cain killed Abel there has been one person or group of people trying to dominate others. It is based on the ego's need for... _more_. And, fear that others will get the _more_ if they don't. That leads to greed. Greed leads to corruption. Corruption leads to the dark side. Our planet is in the grip of the dark side at present. (read A Wrinkle in Time for a great analog to this dilemma).

All systems will continue to fail until the need for_ more_ falls away. Once we transcend our egos, any form of government from democracy to a benevolent monarchy will work, and any form of currency from quatloos to crypto can be used for trade.

It starts with our treatment of our neighbors. Of our fellow citizens of the world. Be as high-minded as you are able. Practice random acts of kindness. Strive to be, now, the person you always wanted to be. Don't stop no matter how bad it gets.


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## 808-702drgn (Oct 4, 2020)

UberBastid said:


> And, what happens to bitcoin when utilities are sporadic (like other third world countries) and computers that are created in China steal everything you own.
> There is no law and order - cops are defunded.
> Streets are dark.
> 
> ...


You don't have to have the internet to trnsact bitcoin.ns jewelry coins, why not have some of each? I do, Bitcoin is here to stay and it's just getting bigger especially after people get to see countries crating money out of thin air and devaluing everything further.


UberBastid said:


> And, what happens to bitcoin when utilities are sporadic (like other third world countries) and computers that are created in China steal everything you own.
> There is no law and order - cops are defunded.
> Streets are dark.
> 
> ...


If you did some research on bitcoin you'd know the computer or internet isn't required to transact in bitcoin. It's made it way easier to though, and I also own metals and have protection in case you don't accept bitcoin. I'm not trying to sell you bitcoin, just go do some research and decide for yourself.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

808-702drgn said:


> You don't have to have the internet to trnsact bitcoin.ns jewelry coins, why not have some of each? I do, Bitcoin is here to stay and it's just getting bigger especially after people get to see countries crating money out of thin air and devaluing everything further.
> 
> If you did some research on bitcoin you'd know the computer or internet isn't required to transact in bitcoin. It's made it way easier to though, and I also own metals and have protection in case you don't accept bitcoin. I'm not trying to sell you bitcoin, just go do some research and decide for yourself.


I'd be interested in knowing how wide the opportunities are to _transact _in BTC offline (no internet). Let alone _buy or sell_ the crypto itself offline.

I own both PMs and crypto. Crypto may well be the Next Big Thing and I don't want to miss out. But there is a hole in the crypto-is-the-same-as-gold argument that I've not heard acknowledged as yet: *counter-party risk*.

Unless your crypto is stored offline, in a cold wallet, under one's direct control, there is counter-party risk. I include the internet in the definitions of counter-party here. Storing crypto in any way other than offline, even at a secure facility such as Gemini, adds to the risk equation. I'm not saying it is foolhardy, just that it adds to the risk. Which is why gold bugs who have thought it through tend to bury their holdings "in the backyard", so to speak.

I guess you can do that with crypto as well, but it seems the ability to transact with offline crypto is still limited. Would love to be enlightened on that subject.


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

I came across this yesterday: https://goldback.com

I am not endorsing it, but I thought it was interesting that Utah, Nevada, and now New Hampshire all have developed local gold based currency.



_Tron_ said:


> I'd be interested in knowing how wide the opportunities are to _transact _in BTC offline (no internet). Let alone _buy or sell_ the crypto itself offline.
> 
> I own both PMs and crypto. Crypto may well be the Next Big Thing and I don't want to miss out. But there is a hole in the crypto-is-the-same-as-gold argument that I've not heard acknowledged as yet: *counter-party risk*.
> 
> ...


Yeah, In a true meltdown situation, maybe we lose the internet and then how you access your BTC? Similar situation with physical precious metals. If you are storing them with a 3rd party somewhere, you may lose access to it or risk having it confiscated. Another concern I have with BTC is what if governments just force the CC companies to not process transactions to purchase BTC? We have already seen that the banks are more than willing to cut ties with companies that catch the public eye in a negative way. What's to stop them from refusing to process BTC transactions when you are trying to buy BTC or convert BTC back to dollars?


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## dacheeese (Dec 14, 2020)

UberBastid said:


> And, what happens to bitcoin when utilities are sporadic (like other third world countries) and computers that are created in China steal everything you own.
> There is no law and order - cops are defunded.
> Streets are dark.
> 
> ...


We are responsible for our own actions. We don't want to do the manufacturing here in the U.S and keep depending on imports. We are in a lose-lose situation.

A socialist country will bar any companies including their technology from leaving the country. Socialist country takes treason very seriously. When we have other countries make our goods, we also need to transfer our technology and equipment to them to make it for us.


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## 808-702drgn (Oct 4, 2020)

_Tron_ said:


> I'd be interested in knowing how wide the opportunities are to _transact _in BTC offline (no internet). Let alone _buy or sell_ the crypto itself offline.
> 
> I own both PMs and crypto. Crypto may well be the Next Big Thing and I don't want to miss out. But there is a hole in the crypto-is-the-same-as-gold argument that I've not heard acknowledged as yet: *counter-party risk*.
> 
> ...


I know blockstream has satellites up and with the right hardware you can connect to the blockchain and transact. I'm not the expert on it either but I know it's out there. The best way to learn about it its to store your own bitcoin. As long as you don't hold your own private keys you technically don't own the bitcoin. The safest way for noobs is through gemini or coinbase, use a reputable exchange and I think coinbase is FDIC insured so that should make you feel better even though they could freeze your account at any time for any reason, which is why as you learn more about the tech, you store your own coins yourself.


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