# Federal minimum wage



## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

It's been just over 8 years since it was raised to $7.25. With the rate of inflation, the purchasing power is surely much lower now than it was then. I recently noticed that the mileage rate in Seattle where the minimum wage is $15, is much higher than other cities. It's $1.35/mile. I wonder if the federal government is to blame for low rates since they fail to raise the min wage? If it were at $15 nationwide, would rates go up on Uber/Lyft? One should think so. Perhaps this is what we should be complaining about.


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## SoulSeekerUSA (Aug 17, 2017)

itsablackmarket said:


> It's been just over 8 years since it was raised to $7.25. With the rate of inflation, the purchasing power is surely much lower now than it was then. I recently noticed that the mileage rate in Seattle where the minimum wage is $15, is much higher than other cities. It's $1.35/mile. I wonder if the federal government is to blame for low rates since they fail to raise the min wage? If it were at $15 nationwide, would rates go up on Uber/Lyft? One should think so. Perhaps this is what we should be complaining about.


Yes but like Seattle is starting to learn, there is a price to pay when you have that large of a minimum wage. Less people get hired and companies leave. I think it should be raised, maybe $10.00 but not 15.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

itsablackmarket said:


> I wonder if the federal government is to blame for low rates since they fail to raise the min wage?


No, the drivers are the ones to blame for the low rates. *IF*, and as you can tell that's a big if, the drivers wouldn't drive for low rates then Uber would only have 2 choices. Raise rates or fold up shop. It's pretty friggin simple.


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## Dontmakemepullauonyou (Oct 13, 2015)

itsablackmarket said:


> It's been just over 8 years since it was raised to $7.25. With the rate of inflation, the purchasing power is surely much lower now than it was then. I recently noticed that the mileage rate in Seattle where the minimum wage is $15, is much higher than other cities. It's $1.35/mile. I wonder if the federal government is to blame for low rates since they fail to raise the min wage? If it were at $15 nationwide, would rates go up on Uber/Lyft? One should think so. Perhaps this is what we should be complaining about.


In my state just last month minimum wage went up to $11.25 from $9.75. It will be going up $0.75 every year until we reach $15 an hour in 2022. Yeah that's far off but I have a feeling with trump the federal wage isn't going anywhere higher wise most likely it'll be repealed altogether as a "let states set their own" slave rates.

Wanna earn higher minimum wage, move to a blue liberal state, then work a job that combines minimum wage and tips and make sure it's a busy fast moving establishment to maximize on tips.


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> No, the drivers are the ones to blame for the low rates. *IF*, and as you can tell that's a big if, the drivers wouldn't drive for low rates then Uber would only have 2 choices. Raise rates or fold up shop. It's pretty friggin simple.


That's not a rational way of looking at the situation. Uber and Lyft are taking advantage of people who are victims of a bad economy. Part of fixing that economy would be for the government to help raise the standards for minimum pay. That way dumb jobs will disappear and businesses will be forced to create quality work that actually benefits society. The move is not the citizens, we are waiting for the government. We're not Jesus, we're not heroes, so much shouldn't be expected from average people, that is insane.



Dontmakemepullauonyou said:


> In my state just last month minimum wage went up to $11.25 from $9.75. It will be going up $0.75 every year until we reach $15 an hour in 2022. Yeah that's far off but I have a feeling with trump the federal wage isn't going anywhere higher wise most likely it'll be repealed altogether as a "let states set their own" slave rates.
> 
> Wanna earn higher minimum wage, move to a blue liberal state, then work a job that combines minimum wage and tips and make sure it's a busy fast moving establishment to maximize on tips.


I hope that won't be the case. I think he possesses the common sense to see that min wage needs to rise. Then again this is just my economic theory and maybe I'm wrong and there's a better way.

One thing I know, it would be great if people would stop distracting him with nonsense, so he can focus on fixing this terrible economy that allowed Uber and Lyft to exist in the first place. That's what government is for. Making sure this ship is sailing properly.


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## Dontmakemepullauonyou (Oct 13, 2015)

itsablackmarket said:


> That's not a rational way of looking at the situation. Uber and Lyft are taking advantage of people who are victims of a bad economy. Part of fixing that economy would be for the government to help raise the standards for minimum pay. That way dumb jobs will disappear and businesses will be forced to create quality work that actually benefits society. The move is not the citizens, we are waiting for the government. We're not Jesus, we're not heroes, so much shouldn't be expected from average people, that is insane.
> 
> I hope that won't be the case. I think he possesses the common sense to see that min wage needs to rise. Then again this is just my economic theory and maybe I'm wrong and there's a better way.
> 
> One thing I know, it would be great if people would stop distracting him with nonsense, so he can focus on fixing this terrible economy that allowed Uber and Lyft to exist in the first place. That's what government is for. Making sure this ship is sailing properly.


Yes but with minimum wage rising everything else rises.

Like literally the same month as the minimum wage kicked up from $9.75 to $11.25, the place I work at Dominos raised the price on their 8-piece wings from $6.99 to $7.99, their 14-piece from $12.99 to $13.99 and their pizzas went up from $13.99 1-topping to $14.99 and specially pizzas all went up $1 as well. The sauces went from $0.50 each to $0.65 and some of the bread items like parm bites went up $1 too. My local McDonald's literally got rid of the $1 menu. Mcchicken used to be $1 now it's $1.69.

Minimum wage goes up and so does everything else. So you are making more, paying more taxes and you end up in the same position because everything else like rent and food went up as well.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

itsablackmarket said:


> The move is not the citizens, we are waiting for the government. We're not Jesus, we're not heroes, so much shouldn't be expected from average people, that is insane.


That's one pathetic attitude to have. I'm glad our Founding Fathers never felt that way, nor did the Rockefellers, the Carnegies, the Fords, the Wright Brothers, the Steve Jobs etc.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." 
John Fitzgerald Kennedy


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

Dontmakemepullauonyou said:


> Yes but with minimum wage rising everything else rises.
> 
> Like literally the same month as the minimum wage kicked up from $9.75 to $11.25, the place I work at Dominos raised the price on their 8-piece wings from $6.99 to $7.99, their 14-piece from $12.99 to $13.99 and their pizzas went up from $13.99 1-topping to $14.99 and specially pizzas all went up $1 as well. The sauces went from $0.50 each to $0.65 and some of the bread items like parm bites went up $1 too. My local McDonald's literally got rid of the $1 menu. Mcchicken used to be $1 now it's $1.69.
> 
> Minimum wage goes up and so does everything else. So you are making more, paying more taxes and you end up in the same position because everything else like rent and food went up as well.


I think it causes consumers and businesses to be wiser. Fast food will die out and better quality places with higher profit margins will remain.



SEAL Team 5 said:


> That's one pathetic attitude to have. I'm glad our Founding Fathers never felt that way, nor did the Rockefellers, the Carnegies, the Fords, the Wright Brothers, the Steve Jobs etc.
> 
> "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."
> John Fitzgerald Kennedy


They're entitled to their way of thinking as I am mine. I believe if you're signing up to be a public servant, you should serve. No one should be guilted into it, that's how corruption begins occurring. Your heart needs to be fully in it. Unfortunately it's clear that hasn't been the case for many of our public servants. They've cheated us, doing only enough to seem like they care.


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## Jorgeletsee (Jun 26, 2017)

Dontmakemepullauonyou said:


> Yes but with minimum wage rising everything else rises.
> 
> Like literally the same month as the minimum wage kicked up from $9.75 to $11.25, the place I work at Dominos raised the price on their 8-piece wings from $6.99 to $7.99, their 14-piece from $12.99 to $13.99 and their pizzas went up from $13.99 1-topping to $14.99 and specially pizzas all went up $1 as well. The sauces went from $0.50 each to $0.65 and some of the bread items like parm bites went up $1 too. My local McDonald's literally got rid of the $1 menu. Mcchicken used to be $1 now it's $1.69.
> 
> Minimum wage goes up and so does everything else. So you are making more, paying more taxes and you end up in the same position because everything else like rent and food went up as well.


Companies always raise prices. Minimum wage has little to no effect on this


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## paulmsr (Jul 12, 2016)

itsablackmarket said:


> I think it causes consumers and businesses to be wiser. Fast food will die out and better quality places with higher profit margins will remain.


prices will still go up in those places too... fast food is going no where


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## leroy jenkins (May 27, 2015)

Increase minimum wage to $15, no more human cashiers at McDonalds. Order at a kiosk/ATM, pickup your food at the counter from the one human that you see. Even the burger flipping will be automated and you'll have one person in the back overseeing the kitchen in place of 3.

People aren't wrong for wanting a $15 minimum wage, but they aren't thinking through the consequences.

People are better off arguing for a cap on long-term capital gains taxes and higher top rate income taxes. But that ain't easy to put on a bumper sticker or protest sign. "Fight for $15" is.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

In order to get re-elected, law makers pass laws that make their constituents feel good instead of laws that do good. The minimum wage law is a prime example. Base economic principles are not changed by political laws. When something costs more, fewer people will buy it. Labor is a cost to businesses. With an increase in minimum wage, those making minimum wage are the first to experience less alternative job opportunities, fewer hours worked, and possibly being unemployed. The minimum wage law hurts those the most that its supposed to protect.

If an employee can't produce more than $10 an hour for a business, they won't be paid $10 an hour.


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## paulmsr (Jul 12, 2016)

McDonalds has been using kiosks overseas for years and are starting to now here... I prefer the kiosk and I havent even seen it yet, Wawa is kiosk only and i love it. Go up order, go to register then go pick up my subpar hoagie


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> No, the drivers are the ones to blame for the low rates. *IF*, and as you can tell that's a big if, the drivers wouldn't drive for low rates then Uber would only have 2 choices. Raise rates or fold up shop. It's pretty friggin simple.


You're correct. However, if they raised rates, they they may be forced to fold up shop, too. Higher fares to the riders means fewer riders. Higher fares than the competition also means fewer riders. Fewer customers seldom means good things for a business. On the flip side, higher rates to the drivers means more drivers. So, higher rates to the drivers means more drivers competing for fewer riders.

Anyone notice the self checkout at grocery stores? Those several thousand dollar machines are cheaper (and give better service?) than paying a person $10/hr. Upping the minimum wage will accelerate the move to machines.


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

That's fine. Let the consequences come.


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## paulmsr (Jul 12, 2016)

itsablackmarket said:


> If it were at $15 nationwide, would rates go up on Uber/Lyft? One should think so. Perhaps this is what we should be complaining about.


if we were having to get paid based off the minimum wage, we'd likely have to become employees.

employees for a contracter would have to get minimum wage BUT the contractor (which is us) gets paid by the agreed upon rates with the person they're going to do work for.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

itsablackmarket said:


> That's not a rational way of looking at the situation. Uber and Lyft are taking advantage of people who are victims of a bad economy. Part of fixing that economy would be for the government to help raise the standards for minimum pay. That way dumb jobs will disappear


And people who worked dumb low-paying jobs will be unemployed... and that will cause many to drive for Uber. Then driver saturation will be increased, and Uber pay can go down.



> One thing I know, it would be great if people would stop distracting him with nonsense, so he can focus on fixing this terrible economy that allowed Uber and Lyft to exist in the first place. That's what government is for. Making sure this ship is sailing properly.


Or on the contrary, I see that the reason so many Uber drivers exist now is because the government has made it so difficult to hire labor. You can't fire someone without incurring huge costs. So companies don't want to take risks hiring people they might have to fire. The bureaucracy involved with having employees is so great you practically need a human resources department to comply. This has stopped many small businesses from expanding from sole proprietorships and partnerships to companies that employ people.


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

paulmsr said:


> if we were having to get paid based off the minimum wage, we'd likely have to become employees.
> 
> employees for a contracter would have to get minimum wage BUT the contractor (which is us) gets paid by the agreed upon rates with the person they're going to do work for.


I'm not saying we'd be paid based off minimum wage, but that it would have an affect on the rates.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

itsablackmarket said:


> I'm not saying we'd be paid based off minimum wage, but that it would have an affect on the rates.


Only if it caused inflation. Otherwise it will just create a surplus of drivers when employment rates fall. A surplus of labor equals lower wages.


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

Trafficat said:


> And people who worked dumb low-paying jobs will be unemployed... and that will cause many to drive for Uber. Then driver saturation will be increased, and Uber pay can go down.
> 
> Or on the contrary, I see that the reason so many Uber drivers exist now is because the government has made it so difficult to hire labor. You can't fire someone without incurring huge costs. So companies don't want to take risks hiring people they might have to fire. The bureaucracy involved with having employees is so great you practically need a human resources department to comply. This has stopped many small businesses from expanding from sole proprietorships and partnerships to companies that employ people.


You're right. All that needs to be fixed. I never said raising minimum wage was the ultimate answer, or an answer at all, I'm merely suggesting that at this point it's so low, we might as well not even have one since it's not doing anything useful.



Trafficat said:


> Only if it caused inflation. Otherwise it will just create a surplus of drivers when employment rates fall. A surplus of labor equals lower wages.


Where will all these people suddenly get cars from? No, they'll have to find jobs and either the economy will collapse or jobs will exist. I don't think we should go on as we are now though. No one should be making such little money. That's slavery.


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## SpeedyGonzalez11 (Jan 16, 2017)

bsliv said:


> In order to get re-elected, law makers pass laws that make their constituents feel good instead of laws that do good. The minimum wage law is a prime example. Base economic principles are not changed by political laws. When something costs more, fewer people will buy it. Labor is a cost to businesses. With an increase in minimum wage, those making minimum wage are the first to experience less alternative job opportunities, fewer hours worked, and possibly being unemployed. The minimum wage law hurts those the most that its supposed to protect.
> 
> If an employee can't produce more than $10 an hour for a business, they won't be paid $10 an hour.


Please dont tell me you truly believe that applies for corporations. So sick of that republican trickle down bs. Maybe min wage should be 15$ but it definitely shouldn't be 7.25.

Lol libertarians. So minimum wage is a feel good law. The fact that you dont recognize how wrong you are is telling is telling of your education. Regulation is good, especially for intl corporations. I guess some people love getting effed by businesses while their CEO makes millions. Rofl


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

SpeedyGonzalez11 said:


> Please dont tell me you truly believe that applies for corporations. So sick of that republican trickle down bs. Maybe min wage should be 15$ but it definitely shouldn't be 7.25.
> 
> Lol libertarians. So minimum wage is a feel good law. The fact that you dont recognize how wrong you are is telling is telling of your education. Regulation is good, especially for intl corporations. I guess some people love getting effed by businesses while their CEO makes millions. Rofl


There should be no interference if there is a willing worker and a willing employer, each acting prudently, knowledgeably, in their own best interest, not violating a third party's rights and assuming no undue stimulus. That's from an economic point of view, not necessarily libertarian.

It is a feel good law, ask an economist.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

bsliv said:


> In order to get re-elected, law makers pass laws that make their constituents feel good instead of laws that do good. The minimum wage law is a prime example. Base economic principles are not changed by political laws. When something costs more, fewer people will buy it. Labor is a cost to businesses. With an increase in minimum wage, those making minimum wage are the first to experience less alternative job opportunities, fewer hours worked, and possibly being unemployed. The minimum wage law hurts those the most that its supposed to protect.
> 
> If an employee can't produce more than $10 an hour for a business, they won't be paid $10 an hour.


Sooooo

When I had an SPH of $400 average in the years that I worked retail I should have gotten wayyyy more then then $15/hr I was paid?

I get that it's tough for small businesses. Especially certain types in SF where the cost of running a business that is B&M is $$$$.

But at the end of the day, the employees of labor jobs should be paid enough that they can put a roof over their heads, feed themselves, and save money aside for rainy days or retirement if it gets to that point (working blue collar jobs for life).

Because if someone is about to die because they didn't have $$ for sufficent health care and so they never saw a doctor to get preventative care...guess whose going to foot the bill when an ambulance is called? Guess whose going to foot the bill when someone doesn't have enough to live off of and now needs government assistance when they're much older and not as productive?

Some businesses are too greedy imho. I've seen restaurants with cash flow in the six figures (meaning that after all their profits and expenses they still have half a mil sitting).


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Sooooo
> When I had an SPH of $400 average in the years that I worked retail I should have gotten wayyyy more then then $15/hr I was paid?


Sales per hour is irrelevant. Income per hour for the business is relevant. If you weren't creating at least $15.01 in profit, per hour, you would not be paid $15 per hour by the business. If you made $400 per hour in profit, you still might only make $15/hr. Another employee could compete for the job at a less cost for the business.

Empolyees and employers have choices. Accept the job or not. Hire the person or not. Naturally, everyone, even businesses, want to maximize their profit. That should not be demonized, its the free market system.

The problem isn't business paying too little to their employees. The problem is the employees willing to accept the low pay. They are willing to accept the low pay because the lack of other employment. Others aren't employing due to the cost and legal burdens of being an employer.

Forcing a business to pay $10 or $15 an hour for a job that's only worth $5/hr is nuts. Especially if there are plenty of unemployed people willing to do the job for $5/hr. My first job paid me $0.50/hr. At the time, I was happy for the money. In retrospect, the education from the job was much more valuable and made me a better employee at my second job.

Government involvement in health care increased in the 1960's. Costs increased shortly afterwards. Government involvement continues to increase. Costs continue to increase. That is not entirely coincidence.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

bsliv said:


> Sales per hour is irrelevant. Income per hour for the business is relevant. If you weren't creating at least $15.01 in profit, per hour, you would not be paid $15 per hour by the business. If you made $400 per hour in profit, you still might only make $15/hr. Another employee could compete for the job at a less cost for the business.
> 
> Empolyees and employers have choices. Accept the job or not. Hire the person or not. Naturally, everyone, even businesses, want to maximize their profit. That should not be demonized, its the free market system.
> 
> ...


Even at $400/hr in sales, I'm sure I earned my 15 and should have been paid more. That's why I eventually left. Before I left, I could command almost everything BUT a higher wage. For a company whose profit margin is between 60-70%, it was unacceptable so I left. Before that I got weekends off. Anyone whose worked retail (especially in malls where it's 7 days a week) you'd know this is rare, if not a unicorn. I had built up a clientele list so that even if I didn't work weekends, the busiest time, I could sell and remain top seller of the store.

The store average sph was $230 btw.

I agree that not all businesses can afford to pay $15/hr depending on the type of business...if I had a better answer to this I would...but I don't agree with the minimum wage as low as it is because it's not working for places like the Bay Area (relative to housing, food, etc). Heck even clothing costs $$. At 7.50, after taxes are taken out..maybe 6 a hour if you're lucky? A pair of jeans at 25 plus tax will take you about 4 1/2 hrs of work to buy. And that's the cheap, cheap end of things.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

I agree 100% that $7.25 cannot support someone in the Bay area. I'd love to live in the Bay area but the cost of living is too high. I can't afford it. I'd love to live in North Idaho, but there're no jobs. I can't afford it. I moved to where the cost of living was cheap and jobs were plentiful (35 years ago). 

Letting the market decide what a job is worth is the most efficient and profitable (for everyone) answer. If a mall employer let their best salesperson go, its because they thought they had a suitable replacement. I would probably disagree with their decision but its their decision to make and they will suffer the loss or prosper. A third party (the government) shouldn't say $x is not meeting some arbitrary minimum. 

I don't think there should be a maximum wage either. An employee should be as free to command their worth as a business is free to offer what it thinks a job is worth. Either one should be able to take it or leave it.

Some people aren't worth minimum wage. Some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. 

Labor is a product. Imagine if used cars had a minimum value law. There would be a lot of cars people couldn't sell. It would hurt those the most that the minimum car value law was supposed to help.

* The median price of a house in San Francisco is $1, 167,200. The median price of a house in Las Vegas is $218,000. Maybe there should be a minimum house value law. ???


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## day tripper yeah... (Dec 21, 2015)




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## SpeedyGonzalez11 (Jan 16, 2017)

bsliv said:


> There should be no interference if there is a willing worker and a willing employer, each acting prudently, knowledgeably, in their own best interest, not violating a third party's rights and assuming no undue stimulus. That's from an economic point of view, not necessarily libertarian.
> 
> It is a feel good law, ask an economist.


No it's not from an economist pov. Its from an ignorant libertarian that believes the "free hand" is a real thing. Lel

Normally youd be correct. A transaction between 2 people is fine. The issue is when one isn't as knowledgeable and when one party ia taking advantage or cheating the other person. This is why we have govt. This is why people are up in arma about the new payment system. So, keep your taxes if that extra change will do better in your pocket, but then dont use govt peograms and laws that protect consumers and employees from conniving, lying libertarian ceos that steal millions amd screw over their customers and workers. Get to reality



sellkatsell44 said:


> Sooooo
> 
> When I had an SPH of $400 average in the years that I worked retail I should have gotten wayyyy more then then $15/hr I was paid?
> 
> ...


My gf used to work for a restaurant the last couple of years. She just quit Thursday. The family that owns those chains of restaurants takes money from workers checks without permission, pays below minimwage to workers rhat arent legal, forces servers to tip out to bartenders ans busboys who already make minimum wage or more (servers make less than 2$/hr), and guess what, they buy their whole family brand new Mercedes of the year EVERY SINGLE YEAR. So I dont really believe that some businesses that say they are struggling, are actually struggling.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

SpeedyGonzalez11 exactly. And the thing is, if they don't have to, *why* would they want to?

I used to do business banking, enough to see that everyone is the same, and in a way I don't blame them...that's the American Dream right? To make it.

I've only come across one business that had a healthy account and still insisted on doing right by their employees. With that surplus of cash, they created 401k, pensions, and reinvested in their employees.

They're just a small company, less then 15 employees..but if they can do it, so can everyone else.


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## SpeedyGonzalez11 (Jan 16, 2017)

bsliv said:


> Sales per hour is irrelevant. Income per hour for the business is relevant. If you weren't creating at least $15.01 in profit, per hour, you would not be paid $15 per hour by the business. If you made $400 per hour in profit, you still might only make $15/hr. Another employee could compete for the job at a less cost for the business.
> 
> Empolyees and employers have choices. Accept the job or not. Hire the person or not. Naturally, everyone, even businesses, want to maximize their profit. That should not be demonized, its the free market system.
> 
> ...


Dude that is such bs. In this economy, businesses have taken advantage of the worker and opted to pay them less, knowing that jobs are hard to come by. So let's not act that this econ since 2008 is a natural occurrence or that it's normal.

Others aren't employing bc that want 50k qualifications for a job where you make PowerPoint and set up meetings. Or they offer too little, below market wage, ans still expect high qualifications. It's a joke.

You know why this happened, bc of Bush era republican deregulation. So you can't realize deregulation caused the mess are are in, and then say the solution is that same deregulation. It's ridiculous.

So you admit to jobs being below market wage and that people should suck it up and just take it. What happens when the majority of thw country is working 2 or 3 less than minimum wage jobs. It's slavery. Nobody is advocating for the mom and pop shop to pay 15$. But 7.25 is not viable. And if they can't make more than 8$ 
/he profit, something is wrong with the business not with the worker.

If you are a stocker, how do you bring in Sales? You can't put value on what a stocker or what a receiver does. So that nonsense about people bringing in a certain amount of sales applies to very limited businesses, most cars and food.

No one likes enormous govt, however, acting as if we dont need any govt bc "free market" is naive at best and dishonest at worst. Govt intervention allowed standards and protection for consumers. The fact that prices increased is just a side effect but is necessary. Would you rather eat food that can be verified as fit to wat, or really on the "free hand" of the family business that relies on his human nature of lying and cheating to earn money? Let's get real.



bsliv said:


> I agree 100% that $7.25 cannot support someone in the Bay area. I'd love to live in the Bay area but the cost of living is too high. I can't afford it. I'd love to live in North Idaho, but there're no jobs. I can't afford it. I moved to where the cost of living was cheap and jobs were plentiful (35 years ago).
> 
> Letting the market decide what a job is worth is the most efficient and profitable (for everyone) answer. If a mall employer let their best salesperson go, its because they thought they had a suitable replacement. I would probably disagree with their decision but its their decision to make and they will suffer the loss or prosper. A third party (the government) shouldn't say $x is not meeting some arbitrary minimum.
> 
> ...


Cars don't need food, clothes, and housing to survive. Bad example.

This ridiculous free market nonsense belongs in books and that's it. It doesnr actually apply in the real world. It's a fancy simple theory by republicans that they put into college books to feel validated. Free hand markets is like little league. It has no real value after middle school.

I would love to see the amount of crime that would ensue because of so many jobs paying low wages and so many people essentially being forced to accept those wages. Would you take responsibility of the consequences or just make up another theory about it?


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Perhaps if someone made it past middle school they could express there opinions more clearly. Stop believing people that tell you you're victimized. Do the math yourself. Follow the money. We need governments to protect our rights and liberties, not take them away. We don't need governments involved in private business. We don't need governments bailing out failed banks. We don't need governments investing in failed solar companies. I haven't needed a nanny in many years. Governments should do what they do best, which is very little.


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## SpeedyGonzalez11 (Jan 16, 2017)

bsliv said:


> Perhaps if someone made it past middle school they could express there opinions more clearly. Stop believing people that tell you you're victimized. Do the math yourself. Follow the money. We need governments to protect our rights and liberties, not take them away. We don't need governments involved in private business. We don't need governments bailing out failed banks. We don't need governments investing in failed solar companies. I haven't needed a nanny in many years. Governments should do what they do best, which is very little.


I explain them clearly enough maybe if you knew how to debate actual real life theory and not some simplistic vs you read ina propaganda book written by the gop, you'd understand this as well.

It's not victimization to want to be protected. What is wrong with you republicans? Always against good things until it happens to you. Youd rather rat feces in our food, fake history in our books, and pollution in our air just so ur buddies can't make a few extra bucks. Grow the hell up. The whole "taxes is theft" crap is so juvenile, it needs no response.

You are right. Govt needs to protects our rights, and that extends to business as well. Glad You could finally agree on that point. Regulation is taking anything away. Unless you're a greedy selfish ****** that is now hurting bc you can't Scam and cheat people.

Govt needs to invest in future tech that is bedt for the country. You realize gps and bullet proof vests were developed by nasa, who is funded by the govt right. Like I said, grow the **** up. Put on your big boy britches and stop complaining and victimizing yourself.

If those moron republicans didn't deregulate the banks, they wouldnt have need bailing out. Think about that. People would have lost their entire savings, just likr in Enron and worldcom, and you're saying you would be ok with that. Gop is the party of the wealthy corporate plutocrats and they successfully recruit naive ignorant numbskulls like you that havr no clue about what you (or even what they ) are talking about. You just spout the party line and hope for some of that trickle to come down from their pants.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Buddy, take a seat. For the past 25 years banks have been paying me for my opinion concerning market values. I've run my own business for those 25 years. I develop demand/supply graphs daily. It is not some far fetched hypothesis. Its reality. Grow up? I've been studying economics at the university level when a peanut farmer was in the white house. And I'm not now a republican nor have I ever been a republican. They talk one economic policy and do another. But its their personal liberty policy that's warped. One party wants in my wallet and the other wants in my bedroom. 

While mortgage derivatives were created under a republican administration, the sub prime loans at the source of the derivatives were spurred by the Clinton administration.

Government should not be investing in anything! Their only job in the business sector is to make sure contracts are enforced and rights protected. Fraud would still be illegal and enforced. 

Nasa wastes a huge amount of money and I'm an amateur astro photographer. Science advancement from going to the moon was just a necessary consequence of trying to beat the Ruskies. For the cost of sending the shuttle to repair the Hubble telescope, they could have sent several new, improved telescopes into orbit. Private industry now sends supplies to the space station more efficiently than nasa. 

Your assumptions about me and the economy are off base. Take from those what they can give and give to those what they need sounds good on paper. It doesn't work, comrade.


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## UBERPROcolorado (Jul 16, 2017)

I am confused as to how minimum wage plays into this. We contract to uber. We are not employees. First, if you are not netting at least $20 and hour, then you are in the wrong business. Second, we are contractors and not employees. There may be a few liberal judges that think otherwise, but at the end of the day and after a few appeals to real judges, we are contractors. Drive safe.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

UBERPROcolorado said:


> I am confused as to how minimum wage plays into this. We contract to uber. We are not employees. First, if you are not netting at least $20 and hour, then you are in the wrong business. Second, we are contractors and not employees. There may be a few liberal judges that think otherwise, but at the end of the day and after a few appeals to real judges, we are contractors. Drive safe.


It was the original poster's premise that the local Uber rate is tied to the local minimum wage. I don't think it is. It would make more sense to tie it to the local cost of living. Its 40% cheaper to live in Las Vegas than San Francisco. Its 25% cheaper to live in Las Vegas than Seattle. But I don't think Uber does that either. They simply look at how low they can pay drivers and still have a sufficient number of drivers to meet the demand. By changing the pay to the driver, they can easily calculate the number of drivers willing to drive at the new rate vs the number of drivers willing to drive at the old rate.

If I net $20/hr in Vegas, I need to net $28 in SF or $18 in Little Rock, AR to have the same standard of living. Mandating the same pay in Little Rock and in San Francisco wouldn't make much sense. If Uber pays more in Little Rock than San Francisco, move to Little Rock.


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## Steve2967 (Jun 14, 2017)

leroy jenkins said:


> Increase minimum wage to $15, no more human cashiers at McDonalds. Order at a kiosk/ATM, pickup your food at the counter from the one human that you see. Even the burger flipping will be automated and you'll have one person in the back overseeing the kitchen in place of 3.
> 
> People aren't wrong for wanting a $15 minimum wage, but they aren't thinking through the consequences.
> 
> People are better off arguing for a cap on long-term capital gains taxes and higher top rate income taxes. But that ain't easy to put on a bumper sticker or protest sign. "Fight for $15" is.


Pretty sure all of the automations are already happening without an increase to minimum wage.



Dontmakemepullauonyou said:


> Yes but with minimum wage rising everything else rises.
> 
> Like literally the same month as the minimum wage kicked up from $9.75 to $11.25, the place I work at Dominos raised the price on their 8-piece wings from $6.99 to $7.99, their 14-piece from $12.99 to $13.99 and their pizzas went up from $13.99 1-topping to $14.99 and specially pizzas all went up $1 as well. The sauces went from $0.50 each to $0.65 and some of the bread items like parm bites went up $1 too. My local McDonald's literally got rid of the $1 menu. Mcchicken used to be $1 now it's $1.69.
> 
> Minimum wage goes up and so does everything else. So you are making more, paying more taxes and you end up in the same position because everything else like rent and food went up as well.


The one thing you are forgetting is that paying those increased prices is voluntary. No one HAS to eat at any establishment.

If people stopped eating their owners would be forced to bite the bullet and figure something out.

Automatic price increases do not mean people automatically pay them.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

Steve2967 said:


> Pretty sure all of the automations are already happening without an increase to minimum wage.
> 
> The one thing you are forgetting is that paying those increased prices is voluntary. No one HAS to eat at any establishment.
> 
> ...


That's a good point, but this is also why people are in debt. They need to stop allowing people to buy things on credit so freely and then collectively as a whole the population needs to stop paying such $$$ for things...if the market is unwilling to pay x, the owners will have to lower their prices to move the goods because let's face it, shelf space.

But isn't that also why credit was introduced? To help people pay off big purchases over time, layaway a washer/dryer. Or a house.

If I took on a debt, I'll pay off the interest if any.

I know people who will not do that, and just file for bankruptcy. One of them even works at first republic.


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## Steve2967 (Jun 14, 2017)

Wh does everyone feel so bad for corporate America when they are recording historical profits?

The notion that raising the minimum wage means an increase in prices is simply ridiculous.

People have an option where to spend their money and what products they want to buy.

The only real thing an increase in minimum is going to hit is corporate profit levels. They can figure it out.

Now, you're going to bring up small business...

Same applies...

Any small business owner that can't absorb the increases labor cost and figure it out probably should not be a business owner in the first place.

It's time we stop crying poverty for corporate America like we have for the last 40 years and realize it is the American employee that has been getting screwed.

This whole notion of "trickle down" meaning empowering business with money and they will do the right thing is ridiculous and has NEVER worked.

The owners of Walmart make BILIONS (as they should) BUT....

They employ people at a low wage and actually encourage using social programs like food stamps and Medicaid as replacement for Walmart employee benefits.

It is completely screwed that the American tax payer has to provide the benefit package and supplemental pay to Walmart employees via food stamps and Medicaid while the Waltons take in billions.

This is a clear example of corporate welfare and should not be allowed.

Again, your tax dollars are providing food stamps and Medicaid to Walmart employees so the Walton family does not have to pay a true living wage and can continue to rake in billions PER SIBLING annually.

If they were forced to pay a real living wage, the tax burden on all of us would go down. Hmm, lower taxes is a true Conservative talking point.

So, here's where Conservatives talk in circles....

They want lower taxes and higher paying jobs for everyone but, they are perfectly fine allowing Walmart to pay a substandard wage and have employees rape the social program system in the name of capitalism.

You cannot have it both ways, it simply does not work.

Trickle down is completely ******ed.

No employer EVER hired more employees simply because they had more money in their pocket. They hire based in the demand of their business.

Corporate America is not going to hand out pay increases because the government cut taxes and increased their bottom line.

If you think business is just going to magically hand out nice pay increases because corporate taxes are cut, you're a special kind of stupid.



sellkatsell44 said:


> That's a good point, but this is also why people are in debt. They need to stop allowing people to buy things on credit so freely and then collectively as a whole the population needs to stop paying such $$$ for things...if the market is unwilling to pay x, the owners will have to lower their prices to move the goods because let's face it, shelf space.
> 
> But isn't that also why credit was introduced? To help people pay off big purchases over time, layaway a washer/dryer. Or a house.
> 
> ...


Credit is a matter of personal responsibility and as far as bankruptcy is concerned, corporate bankruptcy rapes this nation of way more than personal bankruptcy. Ask President Trump about who gets screwed more under business or personal bankruptcy.

So we want individual responsibility which I agree completely but, there is to be no corporate responsibility?


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Steve2967 said:


> Pretty sure all of the automations are already happening without an increase to minimum wage.
> .


Baseballs used in Major League games are not made in America. Gerber baby food feeds 80% of American babies and is not made in America. The last American major men's shirts factory closed 15 years ago. Mini vans are made north and south of our border but not in the US. Levi's - not made in America. TV's, microwaves, stereos, tennis shoes, computers, etc., used to be made in America. We've lost 8 million manufacturing jobs during the past 30 years. Six of the eight million were lost during the past 10 years. The increasing population means would should have gained manufacturing jobs just to stay even. It seems perverse to ship raw materials overseas, have foreign labor assemble the units, and ship them back to Americans. Why have we lost so many jobs to foreign countries? What are those 8+ million ex-manufacturing workers doing now?


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## Steve2967 (Jun 14, 2017)

bsliv said:


> Baseballs used in Major League games are not made in America. Gerber baby food feeds 80% of American babies and is not made in America. The last American major men's shirts factory closed 15 years ago. Mini vans are made north and south of our border but not in the US. Levi's - not made in America. TV's, microwaves, stereos, tennis shoes, computers, etc., used to be made in America. We've lost 8 million manufacturing jobs during the past 30 years. Six of the eight million were lost during the past 10 years. The increasing population means would should have gained manufacturing jobs just to stay even. It seems perverse to ship raw materials overseas, have foreign labor assemble the units, and ship them back to Americans. Why have we lost so many jobs to foreign countries? What are those 8+ million ex-manufacturing workers doing now?


Well, glad you asked...

Have you heard of new fields such as IT?

Most of those jobs didn't exist 30 or even 10 years ago so while we are counting all the lost jobs should we not count the new jobs or does that not fit well with our narrative?

I agree that the loss of manufacturing jobs has hit our country extremely hard in the middle class but, wages are not the reason the jobs left.

Corporate greed is the reason the jobs left. Corporate America was profitable 30 years ago when they started shipping out those jobs and their profits have soared over the last 30 years as a result.

The only thing that has happened over the last 30 years is that corporate profits have continued to hit record levels while wages have stayed the same and poverty levels among US citizens has increased.

This issue will come to a head eventually as the short sightedness of big business has failed to see that a lack of consumer buying power is going to drop the bottom out of everything.

The top 1% does not spend enough to keep an economy running and lack of disposable income in the middle and lower classes is going to bring our country to a grinding halt.

But, by all means, keep voting for people that believe the issue is that we are screwing corporate America.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Steve2967 said:


> Well, glad you asked...
> 
> Have you heard of new fields such as IT?
> 
> ...


IT jobs should not have replaced manufacturing jobs, they should have supplemented them.

You seem to use the term 'greedy' in a negative fashion. I define greed as getting the most you can out of a situation. My definition means greed is natural. I want to be paid as much as I can, I want to pay as little as I can. To be paid more, I might study a subject more. To pay less, I might do some research into the competition. I am greedy. Most people, both employees and employers, are greedy. Its natural to want to be paid a lot and buy stuff cheap.

Wages are exactly the reason business use foreign labor. GM didn't build a plant in Mexico because it likes the food. GM is in business to make the most money for its stockholders. Period. If there were crazy profits to be made, the price of their stock would rise. There stockholders, most middle class, will reap the rewards.

I have very little faith in elected officials doing the right thing for their constituents. They will try their very best to do things that may get them re-elected. Of the 535 members of congress, 1 has a phd in economics.

There are alternatives to a minimum wage that might help instead of hurt the working poor. Taxes are the most talked about. But I like the idea of giving every citizen $1000 a month tax free.


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## Dontmakemepullauonyou (Oct 13, 2015)

bsliv said:


> IT jobs should not have replaced manufacturing jobs, they should have supplemented them.
> 
> You seem to use the term 'greedy' in a negative fashion. I define greed as getting the most you can out of a situation. My definition means greed is natural. I want to be paid as much as I can, I want to pay as little as I can. To be paid more, I might study a subject more. To pay less, I might do some research into the competition. I am greedy. Most people, both employees and employers, are greedy. Its natural to want to be paid a lot and buy stuff cheap.
> 
> ...


Let me compare minimum wage in 2 states I know.

In Oregon it's $11.25 at all times while on shift at dominos.

In Indiana it's $7.25 and then it drops to $5 while you go deliver the pizzas(right to work state or should be called right to work for less).

Federal should be $12 an hour and no state should be allowed to pay less than $12 for workers that can receive tips like the right to work states do.


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

I'm going to come right out and say it...

$15 an hour is probably too high for minimum wage.

Call me whatever horrid thing you want,




$10.00 an hour might be enough for the boonies, the deep south way outside the big cities for instance. Places with no state income tax (Floriduh for one). 

However with that, some areas NEED a higher minimum wage. California, NYC, Washington DC, they most likely NEED that $15 an hour. The cost of a livible house for instance, that will vary from $100,000 to $500,000 for basically the same quality, based on where we are talking about. Often times less money will get you something nicer in a cheaper part of the nation. That's most of the reasons I ended up in Ocoee Florida.

That and well... retiring to Florida is a cliche for a reason.

$7.25 an hour WILL most definitely get me a lot more in podunk Florida with no state income tax, 7% state sales tax than it will in Taxachusetts or NYC.






But i view this objectively, Or at least i think I do. But my opinion stinks just as bad as everyone elses. So what do i really know?


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

I wouldn't mind making minimum wage if that meant my basic needs were taken care of --- housing, medical/dental/vision and food. 

You know what's tough? Seeing someone make minimum or near minimum not because they didn't strive for more. But because of circumstances e.g. Family, economy, etc that keeps them just living paycheck to paycheck.

And that's what minimum wage is, paycheck to paycheck.

And this would be fine if there was adequate health care, as well as retirement benefits when those minimum wage lifers grow old.

But we all know about the rising costs of health care.

We all know about the golden days of pension, more common 401k (pre tax contributions of minimum wage lol) and the burden that is going to hit social security quite possibly kill it.


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

sellkatsell44 said:


> We all know about the golden days of pension, more common 401k (pre tax contributions of minimum wage lol) and the burden that is going to hit social security quite possibly kill it.


My hope is the obesity and smoking epidemics spiral out of control and wipe out the baby boomers,

Financial solvency through Big macs Bacon, and Marboros.


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## Woohaa (Jan 15, 2017)

For generations conservatives predicted doom and gloom whenever the min wage is raised. Never happens though.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Please Wage Hikes for all you


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Woohaa said:


> For generations conservatives predicted doom and gloom whenever the min wage is raised. Never happens though.


I disagree. It always happens. When something costs more, people buy less of it. When gas prices rise, people drive less. When gas prices sink, people drive more. It always happens. When labor costs increase, business buy less of it. It always happens.

Notice how the federal minimum wage only increases during times of low unemployment and robust economy? Notice how the increases are in small increments? They do this to help hide the effects.

A perfect example happened in American Somoa. In 2007, they had a minimum wage of $3.26 and 5% unemployment. In 2009, they had a minimum wage of $4.76 and an unemployment rate of 35%.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> No, the drivers are the ones to blame for the low rates. *IF*, and as you can tell that's a big if, the drivers wouldn't drive for low rates then Uber would only have 2 choices. Raise rates or fold up shop. It's pretty friggin simple.


Bingo. That's the only leverage drivers as a whole have. Rates will not improve while they have 100 new drivers signing up willing to replace each and every one of us.


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## br1anf (Mar 23, 2016)

Dontmakemepullauonyou said:


> Yes but with minimum wage rising everything else rises.
> 
> Like literally the same month as the minimum wage kicked up from $9.75 to $11.25, the place I work at Dominos raised the price on their 8-piece wings from $6.99 to $7.99, their 14-piece from $12.99 to $13.99 and their pizzas went up from $13.99 1-topping to $14.99 and specially pizzas all went up $1 as well. The sauces went from $0.50 each to $0.65 and some of the bread items like parm bites went up $1 too. My local McDonald's literally got rid of the $1 menu. Mcchicken used to be $1 now it's $1.69.
> 
> Minimum wage goes up and so does everything else. So you are making more, paying more taxes and you end up in the same position because everything else like rent and food went up as well.


I for one would not mind paying a little extra for things. I think it is unrealistic to believe that people will stop eating big macs if they cost 50 cents extra. It is in fact reality though that people will be replaced by robots to save owners a couple of hundred bux per week


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Is there any doubt that raising the minimum wage to $50/hr would hurt the economy? I don't think so. So, we're discussing how much harm the economy can handle by raising the minimum in small stages. Small harm is hardly noticeable but its still harm.

Who works for minimum wage/salary? Less than 3% of the country. And half of those 3% are less than 25 years old. Raising the minimum for the young workers is similar to removing the first rung of a ladder. It makes it tougher to advance without a solid start. Most of the young workers are not heads of the household. Instead, they're a member of a family with an income of over $65,000 per year. 62% are still in school. 22% live at or below the poverty level and 2/3's live with family incomes over 150% of the poverty line.

3/4's of minimum wage earners over 24 years old live above the poverty line with an average family income of $42,000.

Lots of people are concerned about the single parent working full time for minimum wage. That's just 4% of the minimum wage workers. 4% of 3% is a very small number. Consider this: An unemployed mother makes $1146/month for not working. Working at current minimum she'd make $1838. If she gets a raise to $10.10 her monthly income falls to $1574. How? She looses $71 in EITC refunds, pays $37 more in federal payroll taxes, $45 more in state income taxes, loses $88 in food stamps, and loses $528 in child care subsidies.

Only 9% of adults living below the poverty line work full time. 25% work part time. 2/3's don't work at all. Raising the minimum hurts there job prospects but does nothing to increase there earnings - they have none. Eliminating the minimum wage would create untold number of new job opportunities. Some may only pay $1/hr. Some would take $1/hr to watch butterflies in the park.

Feel good laws don't always work so good.


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

bsliv said:


> Is there any doubt that raising the minimum wage to $50/hr would hurt the economy? I don't think so. So, we're discussing how much harm the economy can handle by raising the minimum in small stages. Small harm is hardly noticeable but its still harm.
> 
> Who works for minimum wage/salary? Less than 3% of the country. And half of those 3% are less than 25 years old. Raising the minimum for the young workers is similar to removing the first rung of a ladder. It makes it tougher to advance without a solid start. Most of the young workers are not heads of the household. Instead, they're a member of a family with an income of over $65,000 per year. 62% are still in school. 22% live at or below the poverty level and 2/3's live with family incomes over 150% of the poverty line.
> 
> ...


If it's only 3% of the country, why would it have such a drastic effect on the economy? Just raise it then.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bsliv said:


> Is there any doubt that raising the minimum wage to $50/hr would hurt the economy? I don't think so. So, we're discussing how much harm the economy can handle by raising the minimum in small stages. Small harm is hardly noticeable but its still harm.
> 
> Who works for minimum wage/salary? Less than 3% of the country. And half of those 3% are less than 25 years old. Raising the minimum for the young workers is similar to removing the first rung of a ladder. It makes it tougher to advance without a solid start. Most of the young workers are not heads of the household. Instead, they're a member of a family with an income of over $65,000 per year. 62% are still in school. 22% live at or below the poverty level and 2/3's live with family incomes over 150% of the poverty line.
> 
> ...


3% of workers make FEDERAL minimun wage ($7.25).

23 states have HIGHER minimum wages than the FEDERAL minimum wage.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2016/home.htm


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

itsablackmarket said:


> If it's only 3% of the country, why would it have such a drastic effect on the economy? Just raise it then.


It wouldn't be drastic unless you're the one who lost their job or had your hours reduced. It disproportionately harms the sector its trying to protect. It doesn't effect the middle class, they're already making over minimum. They've proved they're worth the extra money to the business they work for. First time employees have no track record. Something like 75% of minimum wage workers stay at minimum for a year or less. McD's has a 100% turnover per year. Entry level jobs are very important and we should try to encourage their development rather than hinder it. Right now, the unemployment rate is very high for young people. Why are 2/3's of those living in poverty not working at least part time? And how would an increase in the minimum help those 2/3's?


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

bsliv said:


> It wouldn't be drastic unless you're the one who lost their job or had your hours reduced. It disproportionately harms the sector its trying to protect. It doesn't effect the middle class, they're already making over minimum. They've proved they're worth the extra money to the business they work for. First time employees have no track record. Something like 75% of minimum wage workers stay at minimum for a year or less. McD's has a 100% turnover per year. Entry level jobs are very important and we should try to encourage their development rather than hinder it. Right now, the unemployment rate is very high for young people. Why are 2/3's of those living in poverty not working at least part time? And how would an increase in the minimum help those 2/3's?


It would motivate them to get a job. Why should they get a job when it requires 90% of their daily time and energy and only solves 10% of their problems? It's not a logical trade-off. People don't do things for no reason. How stupid do you think the average person is? Humans are the most intelligent species on the earth. Again, whether the minimum wage is truly part of the solution, I do not know, but I know that the problem is bigger than the individual. Every day more and more financial problems are piling up, and they outweigh the solutions. Part-time work at $7.25 is far from a solution, and in many cases won't get you even close to solving your problems. It's so sick what's going on, it bothers me to even think about it. Just know this, there will be a backlash, and to me, it looks like it's going to be war. Enjoy.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

itsablackmarket said:


> It would motivate them to get a job. Why should they get a job when it requires 90% of their daily time and energy and only solves 10% of their problems? It's not a logical trade-off. People don't do things for no reason. How stupid do you think the average person is? Humans are the most intelligent species on the earth. Again, whether the minimum wage is truly part of the solution, I do not know, but I know that the problem is bigger than the individual. Every day more and more financial problems are piling up, and they outweigh the solutions. Part-time work at $7.25 is far from a solution, and in many cases won't get you even close to solving your problems. It's so sick what's going on, it bothers me to even think about it. Just know this, there will be a backlash, and to me, it looks like it's going to be war. Enjoy.


Motivation and incentive is what drives our economy. Its one of the things that makes a capitalist system superior to a communist system. You imply the poor and unemployed aren't working because $7.25 is too low. How many would be motivated at $10? A good percentage I would bet. It may also motivate a non-poor, unemployed person (suburban student, stay at home spouse, Uber driver, etc.) to seek $10/hr. So there would be more people competing for fewer jobs, since business will buy less labor at a higher cost.

Instead of the poor and unemployed not working because $7.25 is too low, maybe they're not working because they can't find a job, even at $7.25. That would explain the high unemployment rate among the young. I don't think there is a surplus of vacant jobs out there. If there were, employers would raise the wage to fill the position.

Although some aren't working because $7.25 is too low, I believe more aren't working because they don't have the skill and/or qualifications to hold a steady job at the current minimum. Or others have the skill and/or qualifications but the jobs just aren't there that meet their circumstances.

If people are willing to work at a given rate and a business can make a profit off the public while paying that rate, everyone should be content. If people aren't willing to work at a given rate, they shouldn't. If a business doesn't think it can pay a higher cost without adverse consequences, they shouldn't. That's Uber in a nutshell. That's a free market.

I'm all for helping the poor. I am one! Instead of focusing on those that have a low hourly rate, perhaps we should focus of those that live in poverty. While not mutually exclusive, they are not the same. Help the poor Uber driver too.

I think what you see going on are the effects of the depression 10 years ago. When unemployment goes up, wages go down. In addition to the depression, there is a continuing move from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. You get paid more to make a car than drive people around in one.


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## Dontmakemepullauonyou (Oct 13, 2015)

itsablackmarket said:


> If it's only 3% of the country, why would it have such a drastic effect on the economy? Just raise it then.


It's not just 3% of the country. If you raise minimum to $15 all the jobs that payed $15 and people were semi happy at them will now need to pay $5-10 above minimum wage to retain good workers. Raising the minimum wage would raise wages across the board. Impacting 80% of america's workforce. The major corps like Walmart are against raising it and they pay off the politicians.


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## jester121 (Sep 6, 2016)

$15/hr is a joke, that's only $30K per year. Everyone should make $50K per year minimum, so I say $25/hr.

There's no logical reason for this, it's every bit as arbitrary as the ridiculous demands for $15/hr flipping burgers.... but it sounds better, doesn't it? It's a preview of the Democrat Party platform in the 2024 elections, guaranteed.

Oh, but don't be naive and act like everyone's standard of living is going to be 2x better when minimum wage doubles to $15/hr. What do you geniuses think is going to happen to the costs of *everything* when wages are twice as expensive? It goes up. And guess what segment of the population is most negatively impacted by inflation of basics like food, clothing, etc.? That's right, the lower wage workers.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

A couple of good points posted. If a burger flipper is getting $7.25 and a factory working is getting double that, $14.50, then the minimum goes to $15, the burger flipper will be happy (if they can keep their job). What happens to the factory worker? Will they get a raise of $0.50 or a raise to $30.00? The non-working poor would still have little or no money but also face rising prices.


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## gsx328 (Jul 17, 2017)

You people are so cheap. Raising the minimum wage to $15/hr is heartless. The government can obviously mandate that people become rich, so why not raise the minimum wage to $100/hr, at the very least?

The reality is that minimum wage jobs exist for people who lack resumes and skills that employers seek. Allowing businesses to hire employees at lower costs means that they're able to take chances hiring people who would otherwise be unemployable. From there, the minimum wage employees build a resume and learn a set of skills, demonstrate that they are capable of reliably showing up to work, and they move on to better, higher paying jobs.

Businesses don't just exist in perpetuity. If they can't afford to pay their employees government-mandated high wages, they just close down. Then instead of a minimum wage job, you have no job. Or, they no longer hire people who only have $8/hr skills. Those people stop getting employed, and instead of them getting a foot in the door to climb the employment ladder, they're stuck on the sidelines.

A nice way to naturally raise wages is to stop making American workers compete with huge supplies of cheap foreign labor who depress wages for everyone.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

bsliv said:


> You're correct. However, if they raised rates, they they may be forced to fold up shop, too. Higher fares to the riders means fewer riders. Higher fares than the competition also means fewer riders. Fewer customers seldom means good things for a business. On the flip side, higher rates to the drivers means more drivers. So, higher rates to the drivers means more drivers competing for fewer riders.
> 
> Anyone notice the self checkout at grocery stores? Those several thousand dollar machines are cheaper (and give better service?) than paying a person $10/hr. Upping the minimum wage will accelerate the move to machines.


Uber's already jacked up the fares, but the drivers aren't getting any of that windfall


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## gsx328 (Jul 17, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Uber's already jacked up the fares, but the drivers aren't getting any of that windfall


Yeah, unfortunately they have so many people willing to drive for them, they can get away with pretty much whatever. Once/if their driver pool starts shrinking, they'll have to start treating their drivers better.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

What's the difference between this,



gsx328 said:


> You people are so cheap. Raising the minimum wage to $15/hr is heartless. The government can obviously mandate that people become rich, so why not raise the minimum wage to $100/hr, at the very least?
> 
> The reality is that minimum wage jobs exist for people who lack resumes and skills that employers seek. Allowing businesses to hire employees at lower costs means that they're able to take chances hiring people who would otherwise be unemployable. From there, the minimum wage employees build a resume and learn a set of skills, demonstrate that they are capable of reliably showing up to work, and they move on to better, higher paying jobs.
> 
> ...


And this,



gsx328 said:


> Yeah, unfortunately they have so many people willing to drive for them, they can get away with pretty much whatever. Once/if their driver pool starts shrinking, they'll have to start treating their drivers better.


Wouldn't it be nice if Uber had a minimum wage where drivers were happy?


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## gsx328 (Jul 17, 2017)

observer said:


> What's the difference between this,
> 
> And this,
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if Uber had a minimum wage where drivers were happy?


I'm not opposed to a minimum wage, and I think the minimum wage could probably stand to be raised a bit. Thinking that the government can just dictate that all employers double the wages they pay to their minimum wage employees without any adverse effects is ludicrous, though.

A national minimum wage is crazy to begin with: you could buy a nice house with a $15 min wage in rural parts of the country; in big cities like NY or San Francisco, you couldn't even afford a one bedroom apartment with three roommates.

And Uber would be exempt from any kind of minimum wage laws anyway as their "employees" are service providers. How would a rideshare minimum wage work, $15/hr regardless of whether or not you give any rides?


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

gsx328 said:


> I'm not opposed to a minimum wage, and I think the minimum wage could probably stand to be raised a bit. Thinking that the government can just dictate that all employers double the wages they pay to their minimum wage employees without any adverse effects is ludicrous, though.
> 
> A national minimum wage is crazy to begin with: you could buy a nice house with a $15 min wage in rural parts of the country; in big cities like NY or San Francisco, you couldn't even afford a one bedroom apartment with three roommates.
> 
> And Uber would be exempt from any kind of minimum wage laws anyway as their "employees" are service providers. How would a rideshare minimum wage work, $15/hr regardless of whether or not you give any rides?


State by state is better. Oregon has it split up by county or region I forget which.

There should be some way to regulate expenses and time to money paid, not necessarily an hourly wage. But with a floor that meets the minimum hourly wage at least.


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## Steve2967 (Jun 14, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> Bingo. That's the only leverage drivers as a whole have. Rates will not improve while they have 100 new drivers signing up willing to replace each and every one of us.


Drivers have no leverage at all. It is a low skill gig.

You only have to be able to do what pretty much every adult does. Drive a car.

If every driver on the app decided to not drive for current rates today, they would have new drivers on the road replacing them by the end of the week.


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