# My San Francisco UberX & Lyft Income



## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Here you go boys and girls, I drove in SF starting in February 2015 on UberX and Lyft.

Link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnQWZXdFhwSHpmcWc/view?usp=sharing

TLDR Version:
App on hours: 1414.7
Total Pay: $41,026.44
Pay/Hr: $29.00

A full time job=2000 hours per year.
The total pay includes about $700 in tolls.
I had a short stint at IKEA that paid me 13/hr, I wish I never signed up, opportunity cost 
Any question just ask away.
And now Uber/Lyft will know who I am on this website, dun dun dun.

Link to profits (pretax):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnNDVySzRYeVVmM00/view?usp=sharing


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## Aztek98 (Jul 23, 2015)

So this is good?


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

App hours seldom reflects the total time worked chasing fares. Did you turn on the app before leaving home and then only turn it off after getting home?

How many total miles spent chasing fares, from leaving home to returning home?


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Total mileage is always the relevant number to the real bottom line.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

thats after fuel and miles on car correct...thats great


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

bobby747 said:


> thats after fuel and miles on car correct...thats great


Uh, not.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

Oh so net earnings are not $29 per hour oic


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> App hours seldom reflects the total time worked chasing fares. Did you turn on the app before leaving home and then only turn it off after getting home?
> 
> How many total miles spent chasing fares, from leaving home to returning home?


I live 25-30mins away from SF and I use lyft and Uber's destination features on my way home, works 1% of the time. But if you have lyft destination feature on, the timer doesn't tick.

If you had a job that paid you 20/hr, would you drive 1hr total to and back from work everyday?


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Total mileage is always the relevant number to the real bottom line.


The real bottom line is how much you make in x amount of hours after all costs


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

bobby747 said:


> Oh so net earnings are not $29 per hour oic


It is my earnings Pre expenses, I haven't done a after expenses excel spreadsheet calculation, but rough calculation puts it at 20/hr


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

ADX said:


> I live 25-30mins away from SF and I use lyft and Uber's destination features on my way home, works 1% of the time. But if you have lyft destination feature on, the timer doesn't tick.
> 
> If you had a job that paid you 20/hr, would you drive 1hr total to and back from work everyday?


If? Let's find out how much you are making and see if it's $20/hour or something more or something less. Then, you can answer the question for yourself, but until you do the math, you have no idea how much you are making. Your job is driving that car. You need to factor in all the miles you drive and all the time spent in doing that job. Do you have the courage to go there?

If so, how many total miles did you drive and how many hours total did you spend chasing fares, from the time you left your house until the time you returned?


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

ADX said:


> The real bottom line is how much you make in x amount of hours after all costs


No, that is the "head-in-the-sand" method of getting to the bottom line. Your true expenses are mileage based. That is why the number of miles is relevant.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> If? Let's find out how much you are making and see if it's $20/hour or something more or something less. Then, you can answer the question for yourself, but until you do the math, you have no idea how much you are making. Your job is driving that car. You need to factor in all the miles you drive and all the time spent in doing that job. Do you have the courage to go there?
> 
> If so, how many total miles did you drive and how many hours total did you spend chasing fares, from the time you left your house until the time you returned?


Oh I'll go there, I just got home, made 226 today in 6 hours, pre expenses, 150total miles.

I'll give you my profit(Pre tax) in a hour or 2.
I'll do it two ways: income - total miles *.575 and income - gas/repairs/oil changes

Sound good?


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

ADX said:


> I live 25-30mins away from SF and I use lyft and Uber's destination features on my way home, works 1% of the time. But if you have lyft destination feature on, the timer doesn't tick.
> 
> If you had a job that paid you 20/hr, would you drive 1hr total to and back from work everyday?


You have to place all your earnings and cost in $ per mile. Then you will know for sure


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> You have to place all your earnings and cost in $ per mile. Then you will know for sure


In what world do you determine your earnings by the mile?
There's a Uber "driver" who referred 200 drivers and made 90k, is his income 90k divided by a a few thousand miles?
No, his income per hour is how many hours he spent recruiting drivers.
In the end it is all about $/hour
Miles is part of the calculation of expenses


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ADX said:


> The real bottom line is how much you make in x amount of hours after all costs


Uh, no it's not. Put up your total miles driven to obtain for an accurate analysis. You said ask away. Well, there is the only other legitimate question to ask.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> You have to place all your earnings and cost in $ per mile. Then you will know for sure


BINGO. It also allows the others doing the analysis to "reverse" engineer the claims for accuracy compared to local rates/typical dead mile factors, etc etc. Making 40 grand a year wouldn't mean squat if the driver had 80,000 miles to write off. IN that scenario they didn't make a dime no matter how much their "gas cost."


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ADX said:


> Oh I'll go there, I just got home, made 226 today in 6 hours, pre expenses, 150total miles.
> 
> I'll give you my profit(Pre tax) in a hour or 2.
> I'll do it two ways: income - total miles *.575 and income - gas/repairs/oil changes
> ...


Don't say you don't have a clue about the total miles you drove annually as we all know better when it comes to filing taxes.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> If? Let's find out how much you are making and see if it's $20/hour or something more or something less. Then, you can answer the question for yourself, but until you do the math, you have no idea how much you are making. Your job is driving that car. You need to factor in all the miles you drive and all the time spent in doing that job. Do you have the courage to go there?
> 
> If so, how many total miles did you drive and how many hours total did you spend chasing fares, from the time you left your house until the time you returned?


Here is my final profits (excluding tax):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnNDVySzRYeVVmM00/view?usp=sharing
Metromile reported miles is my mileage tracking ODB device.

Let me clarify some things first:
1. I drive Lyft AND Uber, with both apps on unless I'm in a ride or if one is surging much higher than the other, so app on time are running simultaneously sometimes.
2. Uber and Lyft's App on hours counts all hours except when destination feature is set, then the clock doesn't count. What I mean by this is that the total app on time on my spreadsheet is 99% accurate.
3. I usually turn off my apps or use destination feature if I'm driving to home from SF to East Bay.
4. I live 20 miles and a bridge toll away from SF. One-way trip time avg is 30 minutes.
5. I have two places where I can sleep at night, Mission District and near OAK/Coliseum (reduces my dead miles/toll)
6. I did not keep log of miles, I am doing it now for 2016
7. I don't "chase" fares, there's a reason why I made what I made, I know when to chase and when not to.
8. If you want to say I'm lying and that I drove 2,000 hours (to account for chasing surge and deadmiles/going home) sure go ahead, that means I still made $15/hr.

If you ask me for my pay statements, 1099s, credit card statements, bank statements to prove any of this, etc; I will assume you are trolling and will not reply to you.

Here's a research study conducted by Uber's head Econ guy and a Princeton Econ professor in 2015 that studied 2014's rates.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/uber-static/comms/PDF/Uber_Driver-Partners_Hall_Kreuger_2015.pdf
Of course, given that Uber sponsored this study, I'm sure none of you will believe it. Hell, I didn't even read it, I just looked at the charts.

Anyways, let the comments begin


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ADX said:


> In what world do you determine your earnings by the mile?
> There's a Uber "driver" who referred 200 drivers and made 90k,


Irrelevant to the conversation.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Don't say you don't have a clue about the total miles you drove annually as we all know better when it comes to filing taxes.


You must've quoted the wrong thing but I know what you mean.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> BINGO. It also allows the others doing the analysis to "reverse" engineer the claims for accuracy compared to local rates/typical dead mile factors, etc etc. Making 40 grand a year wouldn't mean squat if the driver had 80,000 miles to write off. IN that scenario they didn't make a dime no matter how much their "gas cost."


Please review my latest spreadsheet.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ADX said:


> You must've quoted the wrong thing but I know what you mean.


I have a similar gross from 2015 and I will have exactly ZERO profit or WAGE for IRS *"real math for profit/wage" reality.* And yes, that is the only legitimate math.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> I have a similar gross from 2015 and I will have exactly ZERO profit or WAGE for IRS *"real math for profit/wage" reality.* And yes, that is the only legitimate math.


If you had same gross income as me (42k) and your profit is exactly zero, that means you drove 73k miles.
I drove less than half of your miles. How many hours did you log?


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ADX said:


> If you had same gross income as me (42k) and your profit is exactly zero, that means you drove 73k miles.
> I drove less than half of your miles. How many hours did you log?


Haven't looked at the hours yet. It's only a relevant number to me when I'm driving i.e. on a daily basis to guage whether it's worth it or not to be behind the wheel.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

If I had to give it a first blush analysis the number that stands out is the gross pay divided by the paid miles. Appears you clocked around $2.60 per paid mile. Obviously not UberX only.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

ADX said:


> Here is my final profits (excluding tax):
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnNDVySzRYeVVmM00/view?usp=sharing
> Metromile reported miles is my mileage tracking ODB device.
> 
> ...


OK. Seems like you don't really have the information to tell what you really made. $15/hour I can totally believe. $20 and higher per hour, I'd really have to see proof of to believe. I know from my own case that if I'm not bringing home $1.50-2 per mile after Uber/Lyft cut, I am making very little. I work my ass off to keep it nearer $2 per mile, and even at the rates I drive at, that is very tough.

Specific responses:

1) OK, I do the same. From that, I can tell you that the total hours spent is much greater than the app time.

2) How can you tell the total app time is accurate, when you drive home most days with the app in that mode (#3).

4) So 30 minutes a day x how many days, at very least, the app time is off?

5) Good for you. What percentage of the days you drive do you do this?

6) How can you do your taxes without this log?

7) By "chase fares" I meant only that you are heading out to try to make money at your job. I don't just drive around aimlessly seeking fares, either.

8) $15/hr is very different from $30/hour. If you are happy with $15/hour, that's OK with me, but you need to tally this stuff so that you know.

The research study I totally suspect, for the reason that it is sponsored by Uber. Uber is never going to tell us the truth.

Congrats on (apparently) making some money. That puts you far up on the normal Uber driver.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

scrurbscrud said:


> If I had to give it a first blush analysis the number that stands out is the gross pay divided by the paid miles. Appears you clocked around $2.60 per paid mile. Obviously not UberX only.


So, about an average of 1.5x surge over a year? That's pretty remarkable.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> If I had to give it a first blush analysis the number that stands out is the gross pay divided by the paid miles. Appears you clocked around $2.60 per paid mile. Obviously not UberX only.


I drive a 2010 Hyundai Sonata GLS< get's 17-18 miles to the gallon in SF


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> OK. Seems like you don't really have the information to tell what you really made. $15/hour I can totally believe. $20 and higher per hour, I'd really have to see proof of to believe. I know from my own case that if I'm not bringing home $1.50-2 per mile after Uber/Lyft cut, I am making very little. I work my ass off to keep it nearer $2 per mile, and even at the rates I drive at, that is very tough.
> 
> Specific responses:
> 
> ...


1) Total hours will always be greater than app on time, but you shouldn't count your time/miles driving to "work." However starting 2016, I turn on destination mode and and tracking those hours and deadmiles.
2) Lyft's app doesn't clock time if you're in destination mode(unless you have a ride). I haven't taken a look to see if Uber does the same, but Uber's destination feature is new.
4) I don't consider driving home part of my "work." Do you get paid driving to work or going home from a normal job?
5) I sleep in SF on Thursday-Sundays normally.
6) Lyft and Uber's summary page (12k and 6k miles respectively)
7) Once again, I don't consider driving to SF or back home as a "cost." At least not for 2015, this year I'm including all of it.
8) I never said I made $30/hr net. My original post showed my income, not profit.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> So, about an average of 1.5x surge over a year? That's pretty remarkable.


If we calculate the net earnings from uber ($17.5k) divided by uber on trip miles, that comes out to be $2.87/mile. SF rates were 1.35/mile, .25/min

Where do you guys drive? SF is ALWAYS surging

edit:
my commission was 25, then 20 starting 7/5/15
17.5k net earnings
6102 miles x 1.35 = $8,200 * .775 = $6,400
579.9hrs x 60mins = 37,794 mins x .25 = $8,700 *.775 = $6,700

$6,400 + $6,700 = $13,100
$17.5/13k= 1.35x surge through the year


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## raygam (Jan 4, 2016)

ADX said:


> Here is my final profits (excluding tax):
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnNDVySzRYeVVmM00/view?usp=sharin


You show "actual expense" but I have no clue what that includes. On an earlier post you mentioned gas, oil but not a host of other expenses.

Being a professional black car driver I use my vehicle only for work (and have a different vehicle for personal use). What is the basis of deducting only 80% of expenses?

Lastly if your mileage is accurate your profit based on the IRS deduction is wui6 good for Uber although you cannot derive hourly income from a mileage based p/l calculation. Note that you also neglected to deduct expenses which are not included in the IRS expense (such as straight line depreciation, tolls, parking, etc). The IRS publications detail these expenses.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

ADX said:


> In what world do you determine your earnings by the mile?
> There's a Uber "driver" who referred 200 drivers and made 90k, is his income 90k divided by a a few thousand miles?
> No, his income per hour is how many hours he spent recruiting drivers.
> In the end it is all about $/hour
> Miles is part of the calculation of expenses


Maybe after you have at least 5 years of owner/operator experience more people will agree with you.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

raygam said:


> You show "actual expense" but I have no clue what that includes. On an earlier post you mentioned gas, oil but not a host of other expenses.
> 
> Being a professional black car driver I use my vehicle only for work (and have a different vehicle for personal use). What is the basis of deducting only 80% of expenses?
> 
> Lastly if your mileage is accurate your profit based on the IRS deduction is wui6 good for Uber although you cannot derive hourly income from a mileage based p/l calculation. Note that you also neglected to deduct expenses which are not included in the IRS expense (such as straight line depreciation, tolls, parking, etc). The IRS publications detail these expenses.


My actual expenses are list on the bottom right and includes pretty much I can think of


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ADX said:


> I drive a 2010 Hyundai Sonata GLS< get's 17-18 miles to the gallon in SF


That really doesn't address or explain how you managed to obtain an average, across the board for all paid miles, of $2.60++ per driven mile on UberX or Lyft std.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Greguzzi said:


> So, about an average of 1.5x surge over a year? That's pretty remarkable.


Uh, no, it's B.S.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> That really doesn't address or explain how you managed to obtain an average, across the board for all paid miles, of $2.60++ per driven mile on UberX or Lyft std.


Did you see my calculations a few posts before? I'm only at a 1.35 surge for the whole year


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ADX said:


> Did you see my calculations a few posts before? I'm only at a 1.35 surge for the whole year


Well, I guess the question at hand is IF San Fran Uberx rates were at, what? $1.35 per mile how did you manage to NET almost double that across the board for all miles. There is no way a 1.35 surge day in and day out can get to that number.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

scrurbscrud said:


> Uh, no, it's B.S.


I agree. It's B.S., absent definitive proof to the contrary.

Drivers can talk shit all day. I want to see proof, or I will assume they are just talking shit and trying to make themselves feel like they made real money.

Are you still making this amazing money under the new rates?


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Well, I guess the question at hand is IF San Fran Uberx rates were at, what? $1.35 per mile how did you manage to NET almost double that across the board for all miles. There is no way a 1.35 surge day in and day out can get to that number.


From what I can tell, all you care about is miles miles miles. Do you not see that I made about the same money on miles AND time?


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> I agree. It's B.S., absent definitive proof to the contrary.
> 
> Drivers can talk shit all day. I want to see proof, or I will assume they are just talking shit and trying to make themselves feel like they made real money.
> 
> Are you still making this amazing money under the new rates?


What do you want to see for proof?
And no, I can't tell you if I'm making the same, it's only been 1 month and it's the slowest month of every year.
But remember, this year, my car will depreciate less because it can only go so low. However, my repair bills will start piling up, I've already spent 1500 since January on 4 new tires, brakes, and gas. But the good thing is that gas is 2/3 of what it cost last year


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

You have to account for repairs and for replacement of your car, or you are ignoring reality. After admitting that you are ignoring reality, I'm not sure you have any proof to prove otherwise.

And how could you possibly be making what you think you are making under lower rates? Get real with yourself.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just trying to get you and anyone who listens to you to see that there is a high possibility that you really are not making what you think you are making. Follow the math. It won't lie to you, unlike Uber.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> You have to account for repairs and for replacement of your car, or you are ignoring reality. After admitting that you are ignoring reality, I'm not sure you have any proof to prove otherwise.
> 
> And how could you possibly be making what you think you are making under lower rates? Get real with yourself.
> 
> I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just trying to get you and anyone who listens to you to see that there is a high possibility that you really are not making what you think you are making. Follow the math. It won't lie to you, unlike Uber.


Do you not see that I am deducting for depreciation or using IRS standard?

Lower rates=less drivers=more surge=more money for me (but we will see if it holds true)

The only people not making money are those dumb enough or no other choice to get a 20% interest lease from uber. Or they are driving in a very bad market/middle of nowhere


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

LOL. Uber on, dude. And say Hi! to Travis tomorrow morning when you see him.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> LOL. Uber on, dude. And say Hi! to Travis tomorrow morning when you see him.


I have a great idea, why don't you guys post your earnings and all relevant information like me and let's start dissecting on why you aren't making money. The jealousy is so real that it's sad. Ya, Uber paid me to post what I made and defend them. You're obviously not even seeing that I made more money on Lyft.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> That really doesn't address or explain how you managed to obtain an average, across the board for all paid miles, of $2.60++ per driven mile on UberX or Lyft std.


$2.60 per driven mile, that's incredible. Wow, please teach me your secret. I've been listening to other drivers in the business over 20 years and myself at 9 years experience. We thought $1.80-1.60 was pretty good for every mile of driving.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Greguzzi said:


> I agree. It's B.S., absent definitive proof to the contrary.
> 
> Drivers can talk shit all day. I want to see proof, or I will assume they are just talking shit and trying to make themselves feel like they made real money.
> 
> Are you still making this amazing money under the new rates?


Hell, I filed a LOSS when the rates were 35% HIGHER. There is no way possible for me to justify doing Uberx at current levels. It's nothing but a donation of my time and machinery to Uber and pax. They can both kizz my azz. I'll drive XL when I think it can pay. And even that is seldom worth the efforts because there is not enough biz and waaay tooo many drivers to pax in any case.

I've Uber'ed off since before christmas and will stay off til the pay rises to acceptable levels just like I did last year. Let the other fools go broke.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ADX said:


> I have a great idea, why don't you guys post your earnings and all relevant information like me and let's start dissecting on why you aren't making money. The jealousy is so real that it's sad. Ya, Uber paid me to post what I made and defend them. You're obviously not even seeing that I made more money on Lyft.


IF you think any driver would believe that you grossed $2.60++ per paid mile for the whole year doing Uberx, the answer is NAY. Not even in San Fran.

The math does NOT compute.

I also think drivers who claim to drive 2 paid miles to 1 dead mile are not telling the truth either.

Sorry.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> LOL. Uber on, dude. And say Hi! to Travis tomorrow morning when you see him.





scrurbscrud said:


> IF you think any driver would believe that you grossed $2.60++ per paid mile for the whole year doing Uberx, the answer is NAY. Not even in San Fran.
> 
> The math does NOT compute.
> 
> ...


You got me, I'm a full time uber employee, my name is Tyler.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ADX said:


> You got me, I'm a full time uber employee, my name is Tyler.


There is no math mystery in the cab business. It's a similar function to my prior business in construction. There are X amounts of quantifiable sticks and bricks that are added up for a total cost. The variations are minuscule.

Where there are claims outside the envelope there are other issues in play.


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## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

ADX said:


> Here you go boys and girls, I drove in SF starting in February 2015 on UberX and Lyft.
> 
> Link:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnQWZXdFhwSHpmcWc/view?usp=sharing
> ...


itsme10469


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## Novus Caesar (Dec 15, 2015)

It is funny yet sad at the same time that people on here think they are making so much money. This is why the majority of all restaurants are closed in three years.


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## UberE (Feb 8, 2016)

I see "hours on the app" and it tracks you everywhere, it would be interesting to see an added "miles while on app" calculation as well...


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

I'm sorry if this is on your spreadsheet - but I can't access it from work (damn firewall!).

How many miles did you put on your car in TOTAL in 2015? What percentage was while "on app"?

Also, since I can't see, please clarify - you do know that you can EITHER deduct $0.575/mi OR actual expenses, NOT BOTH, right? So, oil change, engine replacement, depreciation, all fall under that mileage deduction, per the IRS:



> The standard mileage rate for business is based on an annual study of the fixed and variable costs of operating an automobile, including depreciation, insurance, repairs, tires, maintenance, gas and oil. The rate for medical and moving purposes is based on the variable costs, such as gas and oil. The charitable rate is set by law.


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## Archie8616 (Oct 13, 2015)

ADX said:


> Here you go boys and girls, I drove in SF starting in February 2015 on UberX and Lyft.
> 
> Link:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnQWZXdFhwSHpmcWc/view?usp=sharing
> ...


Just saw your post...so your a full time driver then correct?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> No, that is the "head-in-the-sand" method of getting to the bottom line. Your true expenses are mileage based. That is why the number of miles is relevant.


as well as the HOURS.
The ONLY numbers that matter are, as Greguzzi has implied, are the 'bottom line' numbers.
What did you bring in
LESS what you paid out.
ROI - Return on Investment.

If you brought in $41,000 in paid earnings
and spent $3,000 on gas
and you're vehicle lost $8,000 in value
and you spent $2,000 in maintenance, 
then your before-tax earnings = 
$28,000/yr or $538.46/wk​(weekly pay is far more 'relevant' than earnings per hour)
But if you want to divide that weekly $ by 40/hours a week then you'd be at 
*$13.46/hr* - before tax.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ADX said:


> I have a great idea, why don't you guys post your earnings and all relevant information like me and let's start dissecting on why you aren't making money. The jealousy is so real that it's sad. Ya, Uber paid me to post what I made and defend them. You're obviously not even seeing that I made more money on Lyft.


sad comment.
Nobody is "jealous" of someone that does not understand their costs and thinks they are making money.


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

ADX said:


> Oh I'll go there, I just got home, made 226 today in 6 hours, pre expenses, 150total miles.


6 hours driving? or 6 hours total online?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> IF you think any driver would believe that you grossed $2.60++ per paid mile for the whole year doing Uberx, the answer is NAY. Not even in San Fran. The math does NOT compute.
> I also think drivers who claim to drive 2 paid miles to 1 dead mile are not telling the truth either.


Don't be sorry - it's the truth.
Pretty much the only way to get paid 2 miles for every three driven is to not count all of your unpaid miles.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Ziggy said:


> 6 hours driving? or 6 hours total online?


Serioulsy - forget the 'hours' - they are meaningless except as a point of reference.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

ADX said:


> I have a great idea, why don't you guys post your earnings and all relevant information like me and let's start dissecting on why you aren't making money. The jealousy is so real that it's sad. Ya, Uber paid me to post what I made and defend them. You're obviously not even seeing that I made more money on Lyft.


No envy from me. I also make money. The only way I do so is to take only surge rides and cherry-pick even those. It probably amounts to $13 or so per hour after expenses and pre-tax, but I have not yet done my taxes. Soon enough, I'll get around to that.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Serioulsy - forget the 'hours' - they are meaningless except as a point of reference.


I do use my own imposed hourly rules when driving. I don't live in the hot spots so it does cost me to go out and drive, both ways, both in time and in money. So both metrics come into play. I'm NOT going to sit on the street very long taking in $7.50 (pre my costs) an hour doing 3 Uberx min. fare runs an hour for very long. I'll put up with a smattering of them, but if that's all there is, HOME James. Pizz away somebody else's time. Won't be mine.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

UberE said:


> I see "hours on the app" and it tracks you everywhere, it would be interesting to see an added "miles while on app" calculation as well...


12k miles app on for lyft
6k miles for uber but on trip only, so add another 2k to that since 1k less rides than lyft



JimS said:


> I'm sorry if this is on your spreadsheet - but I can't access it from work (damn firewall!).


How many miles did you put on your car in TOTAL in 2015? What percentage was while "on app"?
30k total
12k recorded on lyft summary
6k recorded on uber summary
Uber however doesn't track app on/no ride miles, but since i drove 1000 more miles on lyft, I would estimate 2k more miles on uber app on/no ride



Archie8616 said:


> Just saw your post...so your a full time driver then correct?


yes i am a full time driver



Michael - Cleveland said:


> as well as the HOURS.
> The ONLY numbers that matter are, as Greguzzi has implied, are the 'bottom line' numbers.
> What did you bring in
> LESS what you paid out.
> ...


Where did you see 8,000 lost in value? My car was only 10k when I bought it, it is now worth 6k, a 4k loss.
I spent 4k on gas, although that includes personal gas too.
Maintenance was around 1,500
41k-4k-4k-1.5k=31.5k
31,500 is 600/wk, which divded by 40 hours would be 15 hours.
But I DID NOT DRIVE 2000 HOURS.
That's what you people who love miles see to not be seeing.
Hell, in August and Christmas I took a whole weekend/week off to go to Vegas.
My 1414 hours that I have are app on hours for lyft and on trip hours for uber.
I don't factor in driving to work as a cost because if I found a $20 job, it'd be in SF too and I'd pay to get to SF anyways.



Ziggy said:


> 6 hours driving? or 6 hours total online?


6 hours total!!! Got a nice 1.7x surge to sfo, then sfo to sf, then sf to sfo, then sfo to san freaking ramon, and I live near OAK so san ramon to OAK was only 25mins


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

ADX said:


> san ramon to OAK was only 25mins


Light traffic day ... I've seen it take 25 mins from berkeley to OAK and san ramon is farther


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Ziggy said:


> Light traffic day ... I've seen it take 25 mins from berkeley to OAK and san ramon is farther


it was 12 noon, no traffic in sight


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

This is a serious question - 

When Uber lowered the rates, was there an increase in number of passengers, offsetting the number of dead miles you were driving? In other words, did you make MORE per day or per week after the rate cuts?


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

JimS said:


> This is a serious question -
> 
> When Uber lowered the rates, was there an increase in number of passengers, offsetting the number of dead miles you were driving? In other words, did you make MORE per day or per week after the rate cuts?


I started last February so I didn't drive in January. From what I'm seeing, business is definitely bad in January.
But since I am in San Francisco, my deadmiles are really low, our entire city is only 7 miles by 7 miles. 
And most of my trips are only in 50% of the city.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

ADX said:


> I started last February so I didn't drive in January. From what I'm seeing, business is definitely bad in January.
> But since I am in San Francisco, my deadmiles are really low, our entire city is only 7 miles by 7 miles.
> And most of my trips are only in 50% of the city.


I appreciate that. I'm just curious what your metrics were, say, 1/3-1/9 vs 1/10-1/16.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

JimS said:


> I appreciate that. I'm just curious what your metrics were, say, 1/3-1/9 vs 1/10-1/16.


Here you go, I'm gonna start doing a weekly log now instead of back tracking everything.
I started to use Hurdlr to track my miles and time spent on new years.
So these numbers include ALL dead miles and ALL hours online. (Also includes breaks/lunchs/dinners that I take because the app's pause function is funky)



notfair said:


> Worked 5 hours at night yesterday. Drove a total of 60 miles, 8 PAX, and my pay $28 before expenses. No tips. Kept app on all 5 hours.


Where did you drive? And did you except to make good money on a Monday night? Unless you were in San Francisco or San Jose area, you weren't gonna make good money on a Monday night unless you get lucky.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

These are awesome data points.

Thanks for your time to put all this together.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

JimS said:


> These are awesome data points.
> 
> Thanks for your time to put all this together.


I went one step further and made a spreadsheet for all of January (besides the first couple days):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zvz7tIcmcyULl5Pjxj3M87xMrWS3VnKSG7-UPqoHjlM/edit?usp=sharing


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## UberEddie2015 (Nov 2, 2015)

a number of things that strike me as strange. When I drove as soon as I started the app I recorded my miles and time and as soon as I turned the app off I recorded my miles and time I knew exactly how many miles I drove and how long I drove. Next if you take actaul expenses you calculate estimated expenses on a per mile basis along with depreciation, fuel, car washes, and other expenses. you take the expense like tires and take the cost of tires and divide by estimated useful life. say 400.00 / 40k miles and come up with 0.01 a mile expense for tires. doesnt seem like much but when you add up everything from oil changes, transmission drain , filter and refill, timing belts and water pump just to name a few it all adds up. the biggest mistake is that most under estimate expenses and hous worked.


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## steel108 (Dec 19, 2015)

The minimum wage in SF is *$12.25* (going up to _$13_). You are making* $14.27*/hour.

You don't get overtime for the weeks where you are really hustling
You don't have any opportunity for advancement/promotions
You aren't building your resume 
You get zero benefits (at least McDonald's workers get a big discount on food)

I can't imagine why you don't work in retail, fast food, or something. This isn't a full time gig, pick and choose rides and you can make solid change. Do what you do and it's just sad.


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## Djc (Jan 6, 2016)

For the people talking about expenses per mile vs hourly income after expenses. Please use real costs not IRS deduction - tax deduction is completely different real cost can be way less than 57c a mile. For example your car cost $30,000 and has useful life of 150,000 miles gas at $2 a gallon and car efficiency of 20 miles a gallon equal $15,000 in fuel cost over the useful life of the car. Now add in $2500 per 25K miles in maintenance equals another $15,000 over useful life. Total cost over 150K miles = $60,000 IRS cost equals $85,500. Real cost in this example is $25,500 LESS. Now if you are doing uber/lyft you should not be buying a new car anyway unless uber black so your $30,000 car should really be $18-22,000 at 3-4 years old with 40-50k miles. Why pay the new car premium of 30% that evaporates into thin air after 100 miles. Now your costs are even less. Lastly commute time/miles should not be included as almost every American has at least a 30 min commute to work. Until they all factor this into their net earnings why are you going to make such a big point about it? I agree its the most accurate but its overkill if comparing to corporate salaries or other W-2 jobs. Also in terms of taxes the 57c a mile reduces your taxable income therefore actually increasing your net income over a similar paying (after expenses) W-2 job. The only difference is that in a W-2 your employer withholds the tax from your checks where as now you have to pay at the end of the year or quarterly. You can actually take that allocation and invest it until it is due making money on it as a 1099 instead of your employer doing it and making profit off of your pay as a W-2.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Djc said:


> For the people talking about expenses per mile vs hourly income after expenses. Please use real costs not IRS deduction - tax deduction is completely different real cost can be way less than 57c a mile. For example your car cost $30,000 and has useful life of 150,000 miles gas at $2 a gallon and car efficiency of 20 miles a gallon equal $15,000 in fuel cost over the useful life of the car. Now add in $2500 per 25K miles in maintenance equals another $15,000 over useful life. Total cost over 150K miles = $60,000 IRS cost equals $85,500. Real cost in this example is $25,500 LESS. Now if you are doing uber/lyft you should not be buying a new car anyway unless uber black so your $30,000 car should really be $18-22,000 at 3-4 years old with 40-50k miles. Why pay the new car premium of 30% that evaporates into thin air after 100 miles. Now your costs are even less. Lastly commute time/miles should not be included as almost every American has at least a 30 min commute to work. Until they all factor this into their net earnings why are you going to make such a big point about it? I agree its the most accurate but its overkill if comparing to corporate salaries or other W-2 jobs. Also in terms of taxes the 57c a mile reduces your taxable income therefore actually increasing your net income over a similar paying (after expenses) W-2 job. The only difference is that in a W-2 your employer withholds the tax from your checks where as now you have to pay at the end of the year or quarterly. You can actually take that allocation and invest it until it is due making money on it as a 1099 instead of your employer doing it and making profit off of your pay as a W-2.


I'M glad someone here agrees with me that driving to work and back shouldn't be counted as an expense

As for 30k car with 150k miles, that was the same estimate I used. But instead, I bought a great 10k car with 42k miles.

For my car, the IRS expense is definitely working to my benefit.

And to end, did you actually look at my original post? I included a actual cost calculation. (In my 2nd link)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberE said:


> I see "hours on the app" and it tracks you everywhere, it would be interesting to see an added "miles while on app" calculation as well...


You see "hours "_App-On_" but you see only miles "_On-Trip_".
'Hours' on the app are MEANINGLESS except for the calculation used to qualify for incentives.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> I do use my own imposed hourly rules when driving. I don't live in the hot spots so it does cost me to go out and drive, both ways, both in time and in money. So both metrics come into play. I'm NOT going to sit on the street very long taking in $7.50 (pre my costs) an hour doing 3 Uberx min. fare runs an hour for very long. I'll put up with a smattering of them, but if that's all there is, HOME James. Pizz away somebody else's time. Won't be mine.


Same here. No patience for waiting. Nothing happening _ I head home and maybe leave the app on while there.
BUT... time is still not an accountable expense unless the time you are driving is in lieu of some other profit making venture. If it were, the IRS wouldn't just have a std mileage deduction allowance - they'd also have a std TIME deduction.


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## Jack Pavlov (Nov 7, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> as well as the HOURS.
> The ONLY numbers that matter are, as Greguzzi has implied, are the 'bottom line' numbers.
> What did you bring in
> LESS what you paid out.
> ...


Look the biggest fault in this calculation, is that you're including costs that would have been incurred doing something else as well. The gas he spent driving on Uber, could've been spent having to commute 60+ miles a day to work every day (A common commute in the bay area). The depreciation on the car would also occur, regardless. Perhaps not at 8000 dollars a year but maybe it's 4000 or 5000.

This is the biggest miscalculation that most of the people on this forum have. And it changes the numbers by a lot. 
And you have to account for value placed on his car, does he care that it's depreciating. Maybe he'll drive it till it's worth nothing at all and buy a new car. Perhaps he is steller at making money and SAVING money. Maybe he's not even driving his own car, but someone else's and unfortunately passing the buck on maintenance and valuation. Maybe he's got fancy access to a vehicle that doesn't match either of those.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ADX said:


> Where did you drive? And did you except to make good money on a Monday night? Unless you were in San Francisco or San Jose area, you weren't gonna make good money on a Monday night unless you get lucky.


It's different for everyone. I can typically make $100 in earnings on a Monday night - possibly because few others are out driving.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Jack Pavlov said:


> Look the biggest fault in this calculation, is that you're including costs that would have been incurred doing something else as well. The gas he spent driving on Uber, could've been spent having to commute 60+ miles a day to work every day (A common commute in the bay area). The depreciation on the car would also occur, regardless. Perhaps not at 8000 dollars a year but maybe it's 4000 or 5000.
> 
> This is the biggest miscalculation that most of the people on this forum have. And it changes the numbers by a lot.
> And you have to account for value placed on his car, does he care that it's depreciating. Maybe he'll drive it till it's worth nothing at all and buy a new car. Perhaps he is steller at making money and SAVING money. Maybe he's not even driving his own car, but someone else's and unfortunately passing the buck on maintenance and valuation. Maybe he's got fancy access to a vehicle that doesn't match either of those.


All of those 'maybes' are not typical and other users should not use outliers as a basis of comparison for what their own situation. I fall into the outlier category, having paid $2,000 for a car I use to do UberX - no real depreciation but still get to claim the std deduction - which is of high value to me in reducing my tax liability on other earned income. Most people aren't in that situation so my net earnings are not comparable to theirs and shouldn't be used for comparison unless their circumstances are close to the same as mine.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Jack Pavlov said:


> Look the biggest fault in this calculation, is that you're including costs that would have been incurred doing something else as well. The gas he spent driving on Uber, could've been spent having to commute 60+ miles a day to work every day (A common commute in the bay area). The depreciation on the car would also occur, regardless. Perhaps not at 8000 dollars a year but maybe it's 4000 or 5000.
> 
> This is the biggest miscalculation that most of the people on this forum have. And it changes the numbers by a lot.
> And you have to account for value placed on his car, does he care that it's depreciating. Maybe he'll drive it till it's worth nothing at all and buy a new car. Perhaps he is steller at making money and SAVING money. Maybe he's not even driving his own car, but someone else's and unfortunately passing the buck on maintenance and valuation. Maybe he's got fancy access to a vehicle that doesn't match either of those.


My car is a 2010 Hyundai Sonata with 42k miles when I bought it. The price was 10k + taxes/fees.
A similar Honda Accord or Toyota Camry would have cost 15k + taxes/fees.

After driving 30k miles last year, my car's resale price is around 6k, while the accord/camry would be 10k
If I drove 30k miles this year, my car will go over 100k and be worth maybe 2k? The accord/camry would be 5k.
Now 2017, say I drive another 30k, my car CAN'T depreciate anymore and I will just be making money (assuming uber/lyft rates are still worth it). Meanwhile the accord/camry is still dropping in resale price.

What I'm trying to say is that my car is awesome lol.
Cheaper than accord/camry, but actually more reliable.


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

ADX said:


> I'M glad someone here agrees with me that driving to work and back shouldn't be counted as an expense
> 
> As for 30k car with 150k miles, that was the same estimate I used. But instead, I bought a great 10k car with 42k miles.
> 
> ...


ALL driving to work is an expense. Even it's driving 10 minutes to McDonalds. The question is what would be an acceptable amount to drive to work? Here in L.A. many Uber drivers haul in from the Inland Empire - also an hour away - to get better fares and more rides. They are finding that cost cuts their profits. More important, what is your time worth? If you can get the same amount from working 8 hours at job that pays a real $20 an hour, and one does not need to put the wear and tear on their personal car; win win. If you are driving riders around over that same 8 hour period - sounds like you sill need to add your 2 hours in and out to get to SF = 10 hours to earn the money you earn.


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

UberLaLa said:


> ALL driving to work is an expense. Even it's driving 10 minutes to McDonalds. The question is what would be an acceptable amount to drive to work? Here in L.A. many Uber drivers haul in from the Inland Empire - also an hour away - to get better fares and more rides. They are finding that cost cuts their profits. More important, what is your time worth? If you can get the same amount from working 8 hours at job that pays a real $20 an hour, and one does not need to put the wear and tear on their personal car; win win. If you are driving riders around over that same 8 hour period - sounds like you sill need to add your 2 hours in and out to get to SF = 10 hours to earn the money you earn.


TIME = MONEY


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

UberLaLa said:


> ALL driving to work is an expense. Even it's driving 10 minutes to McDonalds. The question is what would be an acceptable amount to drive to work? Here in L.A. many Uber drivers haul in from the Inland Empire - also an hour away - to get better fares and more rides. They are finding that cost cuts their profits. More important, what is your time worth? If you can get the same amount from working 8 hours at job that pays a real $20 an hour, and one does not need to put the wear and tear on their personal car; win win. If you are driving riders around over that same 8 hour period - sounds like you sill need to add your 2 hours in and out to get to SF = 10 hours to earn the money you earn.


If you drove 30 minutes to work to make 20-25/hr would you do it?
Or would you rather not spend that 30 minutes (1hr round trip) and make 10-15 an hour?
I am looking at my profits minus expenses to compare it to a normal W2 job, to see if it is worth driving for Uber/Lyft. The answer? Yes it was worth it in 2015.

The chances of you having a job that is next door to your home (equivalent of turning your app on) that also pays 20-25/hr is almost zero.

Edit: Put it this way. You stopped driving for Uber and found a job that's 1hr-2hr roundtrip from your home. Are you going to take your 8 hours of income and add 1-2 hours to it? No, of course you aren't.


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## Nick781 (Dec 7, 2014)

Minimum wage job but even worse since you lose out on your car..... get another job work 40 hours a week and you'll keep your car for a longer time.


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

ADX said:


> If you drove 30 minutes to work to make 20-25/hr would you do it?
> Or would you rather not spend that 30 minutes (1hr round trip) and make 10-15 an hour?
> I am looking at my profits minus expenses to compare it to a normal W2 job, to see if it is worth driving for Uber/Lyft. The answer? Yes it was worth it in 2015.
> 
> ...


Bottom line. Driving to any job is an expense born by the individual doing so.


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## Djc (Jan 6, 2016)

UberLaLa said:


> Bottom line. Driving to any job is an expense born by the individual doing so.


Yes so add this expense to jobs that are alternatives to uber/lyft or leave it out completely in your last example you seem very quick to add 2 hour commute to 8 hrs of driving work but still imply the $20/hr normal job is just 8hrs. There is at least half hr to hour commute in there unless super lucky and live next to work where then rent/mortgage is likely to be higher than those who commute in further. This job is very simple math but because of all the rate cuts a lot of people are pushing negative broad opinions without looking at individual facts. This gig is like sales some people will make money others will lose money trying. If one has a $40,000 brand new car and drives UberX for over 1000 miles and 50 hrs a week you're pretty much screwed but if you have a nice used car with low mileage for $10-20,000 including financing cost and drive 25-30,000 miles a year and 30-35 hrs a week only during busy hours you are making money (if your city is busy). May be not 25-30/hr net but at least $13-20. And $13/hr is better than most jobs without a degree. If one has a degree then they would want to be on the $17-20/hr side net; part time with another regular job thats solid extra income. I do not agree with rate cuts and how uber treats drivers and then forces lyft to do the same because they want more (the cheap) customers who shouldn't even be using this service. I also know if you are not in SF, Boston, NYC (pre latest rate cut), Philadelphia and maybe one or two other cities above $1 a mile / 15c a min then unless you got your car for an amazing deal and have an awesome cheap mechanic you are not making money or minimal at best.


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## Djc (Jan 6, 2016)

ADX said:


> I'M glad someone here agrees with me that driving to work and back shouldn't be counted as an expense
> 
> As for 30k car with 150k miles, that was the same estimate I used. But instead, I bought a great 10k car with 42k miles.
> 
> ...


Yes I looked at it but tbh I did not inspect your numbers I know the math and what is possible my reply was more in response to some of the comments after your original post.


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## Djc (Jan 6, 2016)

Djc said:


> Yes so add this expense to jobs that are alternatives to uber/lyft or leave it out completely in your last example you seem very quick to add 2 hour commute to 8 hrs of driving work but still imply the $20/hr normal job is just 8hrs. There is at least half hr to hour commute in there unless super lucky and live next to work where then rent/mortgage is likely to be higher than those who commute in further. This job is very simple math but because of all the rate cuts a lot of people are pushing negative broad opinions without looking at individual facts. This gig is like sales some people will make money others will lose money trying. If one has a $40,000 brand new car and drives UberX for over 1000 miles and 50 hrs a week you're pretty much screwed but if you have a nice used car with low mileage for $10-20,000 including financing cost and drive 25-30,000 miles a year and 30-35 hrs a week only during busy hours you are making money (if your city is busy). May be not 25-30/hr net but at least $13-20. And $13/hr is better than most jobs without a degree. If one has a degree then they would want to be on the $17-20/hr side net; part time with another regular job thats solid extra income. I do not agree with rate cuts and how uber treats drivers and then forces lyft to do the same because they want more (the cheap) customers who shouldn't even be using this service. I also know if you are not in SF, Boston, NYC (pre latest rate cut), Philadelphia and maybe one or two other cities above $1 a mile / 15c a min then unless you got your car for an amazing deal and have an awesome cheap mechanic you are not making money or minimal at best.


And to my last sentence if you are not on hourly/weekly guarantees (and getting paid them) in these cities under $1/mile or only driving surge/primetime stop driving and get another gig/job as soon as you can!


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## Jack Pavlov (Nov 7, 2015)

Tuesday - 175 miles (5 gallons), 188$ 5:30-1230


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## Djc (Jan 6, 2016)

Djc said:


> And to my last sentence if you are not on hourly/weekly guarantees (and getting paid them) in these cities under $1/mile or only driving surge/primetime stop driving and get another gig/job as soon as you can!


If you are in an uber sponsored vehicle financing program that you cannot get out of cleanly talk to an attorney and sue for changes to your terms based on false advertising, deception, drastic changes to uber pay rate agreement that were not disclosed as a possibility upon signing for the vehicle. I'm not sure what the wording of these contracts are but there is a way to break or renegotiate any contract when material changes happen which is why contract law exists and civil suits occur all the time in business.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

ADX said:


> Link to profits (pretax):
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnNDVySzRYeVVmM00/view?usp=sharing


As far as I can tell, you've not deducted Uber's Safe Rides Fees (Line 4) from your Uber Gross Earnings of $22,106 (Line 3).









Did you deduct the SRFs?


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Can you deduct tolls, as you are reimbursed for them, therefore not YOUR expense?


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## DriverX (Aug 5, 2015)

ADX said:


> It is my earnings Pre expenses, I haven't done a after expenses excel spreadsheet calculation, but rough calculation puts it at 20/hr


I drove 4 days in SF less than a total of 20 hours online probably and during superbowl weekend. I came up with a similar average with current rates. Net, (pre gas/miles) was $20 hour in SF, which seems typical but could probably be pushed to $25 an hour once I figured out how to work the city better. However, SF has terrible roads, tons of traffic, lousy tippers, and high risk of collisions so for those reasons your real per hourly is more like $15-20 average if your car survives.

The rate in SD really sucks and without the guaranteed mins right now there's no way I'd be averaging $15 pre-gas net, an hour like I used to. Upside is the roads are much better in SD so your car will last longer.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

JimS said:


> This is a serious question -
> 
> When Uber lowered the rates, was there an increase in number of passengers, offsetting the number of dead miles you were driving? In other words, did you make MORE per day or per week after the rate cuts?


It's problematic to claim the pay cuts increased pax traffic. Other factors can drive increased traffic as well, which does cut dead miles. Public awareness of Uber/Lyft has done MUCH MORE to increase pax numbers than Uber's pay cuts. Both companies are only cutting their own throats and that of drivers by hacking pay. It was not necessary. It was already far far cheaper than cab at much higher rates and much more convenient. *They took a good product and a good idea and tossed it in the garbage with unrequired pay cuts coupled with excess surge fares. *Again, unrequired. Most drivers would have been just as satisfied with a reasonable fare all the time and moderate surges during high traffic times, bad weather, after 10pm driving inebriated pax.

The logic of Uber shooting itself in both feet is unfathomable.

What really hammers dead miles are long one way trips to areas that will provide no return fare and long distance to pax requests with short trips and no return fares. At the higher std. mileage rate every driver could tolerate these. These are unavoidable for any driver. I started turning down long one way trips with guaranteed no return fares after the last rate cut. Now they are completely out of the question. Guaranteed money loosers is all they are.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

JimS said:


> Can you deduct tolls, as you are reimbursed for them, therefore not YOUR expense?


Most tolls with pax in tow are reimbursed by Uber/Lyft but the driver still has to pay them. So it's money and deduct the cost out. Net zero. However if a fare requires a non fare return, then that cost is a driver cost.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Actually guys, I forgot one MAJOR cost, my health.

I went from 190lbs to 220lbs now. I'm in the worst shape of my life/back to my high school senior weight.

I ate lots of fast food to get back on the road faster. Also ate a lot more in restaurants because of the money I was making. This year I'm going to buy a bike and do courier services in SF, even though the pay is about 10-15 an hour, I'll do it for 2-3 hours a day.


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

Djc said:


> Yes so add this expense to jobs that are alternatives to uber/lyft or leave it out completely in your last example you seem very quick to add 2 hour commute to 8 hrs of driving work but still imply the $20/hr normal job is just 8hrs. There is at least half hr to hour commute in there unless super lucky and live next to work where then rent/mortgage is likely to be higher than those who commute in further. This job is very simple math but because of all the rate cuts a lot of people are pushing negative broad opinions without looking at individual facts. This gig is like sales some people will make money others will lose money trying. If one has a $40,000 brand new car and drives UberX for over 1000 miles and 50 hrs a week you're pretty much screwed but if you have a nice used car with low mileage for $10-20,000 including financing cost and drive 25-30,000 miles a year and 30-35 hrs a week only during busy hours you are making money (if your city is busy). May be not 25-30/hr net but at least $13-20. And $13/hr is better than most jobs without a degree. If one has a degree then they would want to be on the $17-20/hr side net; part time with another regular job thats solid extra income. I do not agree with rate cuts and how uber treats drivers and then forces lyft to do the same because they want more (the cheap) customers who shouldn't even be using this service. I also know if you are not in SF, Boston, NYC (pre latest rate cut), Philadelphia and maybe one or two other cities above $1 a mile / 15c a min then unless you got your car for an amazing deal and have an awesome cheap mechanic you are not making money or minimal at best.


All I am saying is my time is worth money. Don't care if it is driving to a $100 an hour job or $10 an hour job - if it takes me 5 hours or five minutes a day to get there, that factors in. Walk out my front door to go to work, and the cost to my time starts the ticking clock until I walk back in that front door.


----------



## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

ADX said:


> Actually guys, I forgot one MAJOR cost, my health.
> 
> I went from 190lbs to 220lbs now. I'm in the worst shape of my life/back to my high school senior weight.
> 
> I ate lots of fast food to get back on the road faster. Also ate a lot more in restaurants because of the money I was making. This year I'm going to buy a bike and do courier services in SF, even though the pay is about 10-15 an hour, I'll do it for 2-3 hours a day.


Now that is smart!


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

chi1cabby said:


> As far as I can tell, you've not deducted Uber's Safe Rides Fees (Line 4) from your Uber Gross Earnings of $22,106 (Line 3).
> View attachment 27276
> 
> 
> Did you deduct the SRFs?


If not, that would be another $6k - $8k subtracted.


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

UberLaLa said:


> All I am saying is my time is worth money. Don't care if it is driving to a $100 an hour job or $10 an hour job - if it takes me 5 hours or five minutes a day to get there, that factors in. Walk out my front door to go to work, and the cost to my time starts the ticking clock until I walk back in that front door.


That's groovy and all and don't let anyone tell you differently except you are in the wrong job. If your time is worth money and you feel so strongly about it then you should move onto another job that will respect that. If you value the "flexibility" that uber gives you more then your time is money stance, then uber on.

But uber is one of those jobs that doesn't factor in time to get to and from the "job", when they do their payout to you. Few jobs do, but you should totally go after the ones that will if it's a non-negotiable stance.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Making 40 grand a year wouldn't mean squat if the driver had 80,000 miles to write off. IN that scenario they didn't make a dime no matter how much their "gas cost."


Not nessecarily true at all. In your scenario I would make $26,400 and have additional benefits from the deductions lowering the taxes on my additional income.



Greguzzi said:


> You have to account for repairs and for replacement of your car, or you are ignoring reality.


No, you don't both deduct the lost equity and add in the cost of a replacement car. It's one or the other.



scrurbscrud said:


> Hell, I filed a LOSS when the rates were 35% HIGHER. There is no way possible for me to justify doing Uberx at current levels. It's nothing but a donation of my time and machinery to Uber and pax.


Filing with no income after deductions is not the same as losing money or not profiting. The deductions are far higher than actual costs if you are smart.



Novus Caesar said:


> It is funny yet sad at the same time that people on here think they are making so much money.


Some are making good money.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> But if you want to divide that weekly $ by 40/hours a week then you'd be at
> *$13.46/hr* - before tax.


There's probably little to no tax and the deductions can actually create a net gain by lowering taxable income from alternate sources and affecting the tax rate on all additional income.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> Nobody is "jealous" of someone that does not understand their costs and thinks they are making money.


I can see from your posts you don't understand the actual costs and completely neglect the tax ramifications.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> Serioulsy - forget the 'hours' - they are meaningless except as a point of reference.


Hours are the only meaningful metric. Miles are meaningless. I can drive 60 miles in an hour or 5 and make the same amount of net profit.



ADX said:


> I'M glad someone here agrees with me that driving to work and back shouldn't be counted as an expense


As a practical matter, as a business, you count the miles to and from your starting point as an expense because you also deduct them. You can't have a deduction that wasn't also an expense. It's not comparable to a W2 job where you can not deduct the miles to a place of business.



Jack Pavlov said:


> Look the biggest fault in this calculation, is that you're including costs that would have been incurred doing something else as well. The gas he spent driving on Uber, could've been spent having to commute 60+ miles a day to work every day (A common commute in the bay area). The depreciation on the car would also occur, regardless. Perhaps not at 8000 dollars a year but maybe it's 4000 or 5000.


This is not useful at all. You deduct all costs from both to determine your net.



Jack Pavlov said:


> This is the biggest miscalculation that most of the people on this forum have. And it changes the numbers by a lot.
> And you have to account for value placed on his car, does he care that it's depreciating. Maybe he'll drive it till it's worth nothing at all and buy a new car. Perhaps he is steller at making money and SAVING money. Maybe he's not even driving his own car, but someone else's and unfortunately passing the buck on maintenance and valuation. Maybe he's got fancy access to a vehicle that doesn't match either of those.


How he feels about lost equity is irrelevant to the fact it is lost equity.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> I fall into the outlier category, having paid $2,000 for a car I use to do UberX - no real depreciation but still get to claim the std deduction - which is of high value to me in reducing my tax liability on other earned income.


Me too. Every mile I drive I make more money than just the fare because of the deduction's effect on tax rates on my additional income. I'm still doing my taxes, but it's quite possible the overall effect is that I drive at $0 cost per mile.



Nick781 said:


> Minimum wage job but even worse since you lose out on your car..... get another job work 40 hours a week and you'll keep your car for a longer time.


I make about 2.5 times minimum wage net and the car is accounted for as an expense. You don't lose anything. Remember kids, math is your friend.



scrurbscrud said:


> Most drivers would have been just as satisfied with a reasonable fare all the time and moderate surges during high traffic times, bad weather, after 10pm driving inebriated pax.


Surges aren't about pay, they are about reducing demand so that cars stay available. We aren't cabs, we are an on-demand service, and that requires surge.



scrurbscrud said:


> started turning down long one way trips with guaranteed no return fares after the last rate cut. Now they are completely out of the question. Guaranteed money loosers is all they are.


I doubt your math adds up. Long trips with dead heading back are usually as profitable or more profitable than the typical 3-4 short trips per hour.


----------



## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> Not nessecarily true at all. In your scenario I would make $26,400 and have additional benefits from the deductions lowering the taxes on my additional income.
> 
> No, you don't both deduct the lost equity and add in the cost of a replacement car. It's one or the other.
> 
> ...


Lots of ways to skin the same cat. And lots of ways to ignore reality. My favorite metric is $/mile. To each his own, though.


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

When you get a job paying $20 an hour you don't say 
"Well it took me an hour each way so 8 hours of work plus 2 hours travel equals 10 hours, and I only got paid for 8 of them, so my hourly pay is really $16 bucks.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

GlenGreezy said:


> When you get a job paying $20 an hour you don't say
> "Well it took me an hour each way so 8 hours of work plus 2 hours travel equals 10 hours, and I only got paid for 8 of them, so my hourly pay is really $16 bucks.


...true, most don't, but they should. Your time has a value so treating the drive time as a factor is important in your decision making. In your scenario a $16 an hour job a block away has more value than a $20 an hour job an hour away because you save 2 extra hours a day, gas, and wear and tear. If you don't factor in drive time, you won't realise the $16 an hour job is more valuable.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> Lots of ways to skin the same cat. And lots of ways to ignore reality. My favorite metric is $/mile. To each his own, though.


So you don't care if you make $5 an hour or $50?

OK.


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> ...true, most don't, but they should. Your time has a value so treating the drive time as a factor is important in your decision making. In your scenario a $16 an hour job a block away has more value than a $20 an hour job an hour away because you save 2 extra hours a day, gas, and wear and tear. If you don't factor in drive time, you won't realise the $16 an hour job is more valuable.


But it will net you LESS ACTUAL MONEY unless you monetize the two extra hours you aren't using for travel, no?


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

GlenGreezy said:


> But it will net you LESS ACTUAL MONEY unless you monetize the two extra hours you aren't using for travel, no?


Yes, it will net you less, but the per hour is better.


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

Let's put it this way.

With the new employer would you like to say your last job paid you 41,600 or 33,280?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Let's put it this way.
> 
> With the new employer would you like to say your last job paid you 41,600 or 33,280?


You can still work 2 more hours a day and earn the same in the same amount of time while saving the costs of the commute. Plus, I lie on every resume so it wouldn't impact me.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

They actually can and do check

*depending where you applied


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

sellkatsell44 said:


> They actually can and do check
> 
> *depending where you applied


Yeah, I'm just kidding.


----------



## SMOTY (Oct 6, 2015)

ADX said:


> Here you go boys and girls, I drove in SF starting in February 2015 on UberX and Lyft.
> 
> Link:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnQWZXdFhwSHpmcWc/view?usp=sharing
> ...


Good job man looks like you're doing good. There's so many people on here who are hating you for making it work for yourself! They try and depreciate your car, time waiting and such. But really what other job gives you this luxury. Sure you're racking up miles. It's just an investment cuz maybe at 100k you can sell it for some doh or just give it to you're lil bro. Cars can last for 200 maybe 300k with proper care. Oh and sure you're spending money on repairs if out of warranty, oil changes but those are deductibles  so keep it up. That's my goal this year. 35-50k with LYFT made 1/3 of that last year between LYFT and U so good job man! LYFT on!!


----------



## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> So you don't care if you make $5 an hour or $50?
> 
> OK.


Do you always put words in peoples' mouths? Got it. Bye.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Greguzzi said:


> Lots of ways to skin the same cat. And lots of ways to ignore reality. My favorite metric is $/mile. To each his own, though.


If you measure your day in miles, then $/miles would be a great metric.
But most of us measure our days in hours, so $/Hour is a more fitting metric.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> Do you always put words in peoples' mouths? Got it. Bye.


----------



## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Let's put it this way.
> 
> With the new employer would you like to say your last job paid you 41,600 or 33,280?


Depends on what it *really *cost me to earn the 41,600.


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

UberLaLa said:


> Depends on what it *really *cost me to earn the 41,600.


Your potential employer wouldn't care -- if you got paid X, they'll only bump up by y.


----------



## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Your potential employer wouldn't care -- if you got paid X, they'll only bump up by y.


I hear ya. My main point in this thread (cuz I drive out of my driveway with App on) is the Uber/Lyft driver that needs to haul a half hour or more, so they can get their car into a good market, needs to calculate that cost into their expenses. Similar to the gas and operating expense. If they did not drive rideshare (where they are sharing their car) it would not be as much of a factor. In my day job I sometimes hire special vehicles that need to be transported on a trailer - the company that brings them to the location charges from the time the vehicle rolls onto the trailer until it rolls back into their garage.


----------



## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

chi1cabby said:


> If you measure your day in miles, then $/miles would be a great metric.
> But most of us measure our days in hours, so $/Hour is a more fitting metric.


I consider time, also. It's not all I consider, though. Expenses are mostly mile-based.


----------



## SCdave (Jun 27, 2014)

UberLaLa said:


> Now that is smart!


Apples and nuts in the car work for me. But eatting isn't just for the food, it is a brea


SMOTY said:


> Good job man looks like you're doing good. There's so many people on here who are hating you for making it work for yourself! They try and depreciate your car, time waiting and such. But really what other job gives you this luxury. Sure you're racking up miles. It's just an investment cuz maybe at 100k you can sell it for some doh or just give it to you're lil bro. Cars can last for 200 maybe 300k with proper care. Oh and sure you're spending money on repairs if out of warranty, oil changes but those are deductibles  so keep it up. That's my goal this year. 35-50k with LYFT made 1/3 of that last year between LYFT and U so good job man! LYFT on!!


Compared to other threads where someone posted their Gross/Net Profits and opened it up for a discussion, I haven't seen any hating on this one. It's been a decent back and forth with disagreements but no serious hating. Part of this I attribute to OP stating his side but being open to others giving opposing opinions.

I've actually read through this one and appreciated the discussion.

Per Hour Gross/Nets are just a reference I track. Per Mile Gross/Nets is how the transportation business tracks Profits (with some miscellaneous expenses of course).


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> Not nessecarily true at all. In your scenario I would make $26,400 and have additional benefits from the deductions lowering the taxes on my additional income.


At $1.20 per paid mile there is no wage or profit. Drivers are just working the spread between what they think is their hard costs and net from Uber after their take. Is there a taxable wage or profit? Uh, no. Not at that rate.



> Filing with no income after deductions is not the same as losing money or not profiting.


False. But a common myth among TNC drivers who think they are making either profit or wage when they make neither.


> There's probably little to no tax


True. And that's because there is no wage or profit to pay taxes on.



> and the deductions can actually create a net gain by lowering taxable income from alternate sources and affecting the tax rate on all additional income.


Driving for a loss for tax benefits is absurd. Few if any drivers are in that situation anyway. The losses are real money. And whatever losses are applied drivers would only be gaining a fraction of said losses equal to their state and federal income tax percentages.



> I can see from your posts you don't understand the actual costs and completely neglect the tax ramifications.


IF you concede that drivers drive for losses I'll certainly agree because that's the truth in the majority of cases.



> Hours are the only meaningful metric.


I only use that metric to judge whether to keep driving or go home. When it drops below $18 an hour gross over a 2-3 hour period Uber and pax can walk for all I care.



> Miles are meaningless.


Again false. Miles are a direct correlation to income or the lack thereof.



> I can drive 60 miles in an hour or 5 and make the same amount of net profit.


Unlikely.

If a driver grosses $40 an hour and drives 60 miles to get it they have a factual loss using 2015 mileage deduction numbers. And they may very well dead mile back and lose even more money.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> I can see from your posts you don't understand the actual costs and completely neglect the tax ramifications.


And I can see from your posts that you haven't read my posts on the subject.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> At $1.20 per paid mile there is no wage or profit. Drivers are just working the spread between what they think is their hard costs and net from Uber after their take. Is there a taxable wage or profit? Uh, no. Not at that rate.
> 
> False. But a common myth among TNC drivers who think they are making either profit or wage when they make neither.
> 
> ...


Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. Taxable income has absolutely nothing to do with actual profit. Nothing. It's reduced by deductions with exceed actual costs. It has no meaning in profit. I have been in business for myself for 23 of my last 30 years, I have had zero or little taxable income many times and yet still bought my home, vehicles, and raised my kids. How is that possible?

Sorry, again, my deductions from driving affect ALL of my additional income tax rates positively which is profit.

Your dislike of Uber leads you to say things that are easily proven false. Would you like me to? I'll do the math for you since you won't. Let me know.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> And I can see from your posts that you haven't read my posts on the subject.


You have an agenda and you use one side of the ledger, with errors, and abandon the other. I've read your posts and found them wanting.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> ... my deductions from driving affect ALL of my additional income tax rates positively which is profit.


So, you want to pretend that everyone has 'other' taxable income and that Uber is god's gift to people who earn enough that they have the need to reduce their tax burden. Perfect.

Maybe Uber should change their slogan from
'Everyone's Personal Driver' to '_*Everyone's Personal Tax Deduction*_'.

And instead of advertising for drivers with 'Earn up to $30 an Hour',
they should advertsie for drivers with "*Deduct Up To $35,000 A Year In Losses!*"
How about this one: '*Turn a $10,000 a Year Investment Into A $50,000 Tax Loss!*"
yeah... that's the ticket. (way to go... assuming that everyone in the world is just like you)


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> You have an agenda and you use one side of the ledger, with errors, and abandon the other. I've read your posts and found them wanting.


I'm glad you want them - here's another.
The only agenda I have is to call out nonesense when I see it - whether it's pro or con Uber/rideshare....
and I do like to present a differnt side of the story when someone is either missing the point or blind to other points of view.

The fact that I started a recenlty featured thread here accusing drivers of looking at only one side of the ledger should tell you something; but you can't see what you don't want to.


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. Taxable income has absolutely nothing to do with actual profit. Nothing. It's reduced by deductions with exceed actual costs. It has no meaning in profit. I have been in business for myself for 23 of my last 30 years, I have had zero or little taxable income many times and yet still bought my home, vehicles, and raised my kids. How is that possible?
> 
> Sorry, again, my deductions from driving affect ALL of my additional income tax rates positively which is profit.
> 
> Your dislike of Uber leads you to say things that are easily proven false. Would you like me to? I'll do the math for you since you won't. Let me know.


American business norm is to MINIMIZE taxable income and MAXIMIZE profit. 
Having LOTS of taxable income is THE BAD IDEA.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> I consider time, also. It's not all I consider, though. Expenses are mostly mile-based.


(I wish more people understood that)


----------



## UberEddie2015 (Nov 2, 2015)

Give me 300K taxable income and I won't complain. Driving Uber Select in some areas allow you to make a decent profit. As far as UberX and Lyft thats another story. I just don't get what the attraction is to drive. You can't have a life if you are working another job and ride share driving. I drove Uber Select but the volume is not there so I stopped driving. No hate, just don't see the attraction other than the driver can work whenever he wants. Other than that I just don't get it.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about. *Taxable income has absolutely nothing to do with actual profit. Nothing.*


That's why you're the perfect Uberx driver. And you're the same guy who thinks std personal auto is great for TNC driving.



> It's reduced by deductions with exceed actual costs.


Guess it would depend on how many junkers a driver would need to buy in a year huh?



> It has no meaning in profit.


Yes it does. In the real world.



> I have been in business for myself for 23 of my last 30 years, *I have had zero or little taxable income* many times and yet still bought my home, vehicles, and raised my kids. How is that possible?


And that's why you're an Uber driver.



> Sorry, again, my deductions from driving affect ALL of my additional income tax rates positively which is profit.


At least you admit it's a loss, so congratulations. I'm sure that by deducting 25% of those losses against other taxable income you're killing it Ubering.



> Your dislike of Uber leads you to say things that are easily proven false. Would you like me to? I'll do the math for you since you won't. Let me know.


I'm not fond of engaging in circular reasoning. Prefer honest math.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

GlenGreezy said:


> American business norm is to MINIMIZE taxable income and MAXIMIZE profit.
> Having LOTS of taxable income is THE BAD IDEA.


And that's why you're also the perfect Uber driver.

hint: It's not bad or a bad idea to make a profit/wage and pay taxes, especially a LOT of it. That's the impetus to keep a driver on the road 6 days a week, 12 hours a day. Nor is it the American business "norm" to do otherwise.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

GlenGreezy said:


> American business norm is to MINIMIZE taxable income and MAXIMIZE profit.
> Having LOTS of taxable income is THE BAD IDEA.


"American business norm" is to have as much earnings as possible (EBITDA) 
- and then invest as much as possible to reduce taxable profit. 
Busines entities do not pay tax on income, they pay tax on profits.
Thats' why the deductions exist: to encourage investment and to limit double-taxation.


----------



## Uberduberdoo (Oct 22, 2015)

One thing is for certain, that is, if in 2015 you made money driving uber, in 2016, you will likely make less.


----------



## SCdave (Jun 27, 2014)

Okay, I now take back what I said about this being a decent thread. Thanks RamzFanz for taking it from discussion to pissing match. Much appreciated. I'm out.


----------



## JaredJ (Aug 7, 2015)

Poor people calculate $/hr because they have the mentality of a minimum wage employee and dont create anything. Hardworking winners look at what they made at the end of the year. Quit acting like your daily hours matter when your spare time is spent on this forum and playing Xbox. Trump 2016


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

JaredJ said:


> Poor people calculate $/hr because they have the mentality of a minimum wage employee and dont create anything. Hardworking winners look at what they made at the end of the year. Quit acting like your daily hours matter when your spare time is spent on this forum and playing Xbox. Trump 2016


hehe... you had me until the last two words.


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## JaredJ (Aug 7, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> hehe... you had me until the last two words.


I donated to Bernie yesterday.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

JaredJ said:


> I donated to Bernie yesterday.


hehe


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> So, you want to pretend that everyone has 'other' taxable income and that Uber is god's gift to people who earn enough that they have the need to reduce their tax burden. Perfect.
> 
> Maybe Uber should change their slogan from
> 'Everyone's Personal Driver' to '_*Everyone's Personal Tax Deduction*_'.
> ...


Yeah, I never said it applied to everyone. How could it?

However, you want to represent that the tax deductions eliminating taxable income means you made no profit and that's not correct.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I'm glad you want them - here's another.
> The only agenda I have is to call out nonesense when I see it - whether it's pro or con Uber/rideshare....
> and I do like to present a differnt side of the story when someone is either missing the point or blind to other points of view.
> 
> The fact that I started a recenlty featured thread here accusing drivers of looking at only one side of the ledger should tell you something; but you can't see what you don't want to.


Are you the pot or the kettle?


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> That's why you're the perfect Uberx driver. And you're the same guy who thinks std personal auto is great for TNC driving.
> 
> Guess it would depend on how many junkers a driver would need to buy in a year huh?
> 
> ...


I think you've made it pretty clear you have no grasp of the tax implications or what constitutes a profit or deduction. No need to keep repeating your misconceptions, we get it.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

SCdave said:


> Okay, I now take back what I said about this being a decent thread. Thanks RamzFanz for taking it from discussion to pissing match. Much appreciated. I'm out.


You're welcome. I hope I cleared up a few things for you.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Busines entities do not pay tax on income, they pay tax on profits.


Close, but no cigar. Tax deductions can far exceed actual expenses, like your mileage deduction, meaning you aren't even taxed on profit in some cases. This creates the illusion of no profit for those that don't understand the difference between taxable income and profit.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> I think you've made it pretty clear you have no grasp of the tax implications or what constitutes a profit or deduction. No need to keep repeating your misconceptions, we get it.


Pretty sure most drivers here do. And they KNOW that even at $1.20 per paid mile in St. Louis for Uberx std. rates there is neither profit or wage.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Pretty sure most drivers here do. And they KNOW that even at $1.20 per paid mile in St. Louis for Uberx std. rates there is neither profit or wage.


Math is your friend. Try it some time. It's not as hard as it looks.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> Math is your friend. Try it some time. It's not as hard as it looks.


Yes, I distinctly recall you terming Uber losses, profitable. Nah. They're losses.


----------



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Yes, I distinctly recall you terming Uber losses, profitable. Nah. They're losses.


20 miles over 30 minutes = $30 GROSS profit
My total costs = -$3.40
Uber fees = -$7.36

NET Profit = $19.24
Tax deduction = $11.50, an $8.10 reduction in taxable income over actual costs!

So, here's the MAGIC my frenemy, I only have to pay taxes on $11.14 even though I earned $19.24! TADAAAAAAA, PROFIT!

See, it's easy.

And no, I have never termed Uber losses as profit. I termed Uber deductions as profitable. Words are important.

That $8.10 reduction in taxable income above actual costs creates an additional profit in tax savings. So no, not losses.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> 20 miles over 30 minutes = $30
> My total costs = -$3.40
> Uber fees = -$7.36
> 
> ...


Sure it is when you have no dead miles factor and you call the IRS COST deduction a tax deduction.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Sure it is when you have no dead miles factor and you call the IRS COST deduction a tax deduction.


The IRS allows $.575 in per mileage deduction. My actual costs are $.17 a mile. That's $.40 per mile I drive in deductions above my actual costs.

OK, more math, take an aspirin and stay with me.

Let's TRIPLE the miles for dead miles, a completely moronic amount!

20 miles over 30 minutes = $30 GROSS profit
40 dead miles = -$6.80
20 live miles = -$3.40
Uber fees = -$7.36

NET Profit = $12.44
Tax deduction = $34.50, a $24.10 reduction in taxable income over actual costs!

So, here's the MAGIC my frenemy, I pay taxes on NONE of the $12.44 net profit even though I earned $12.44! TADAAAAAAA, TAX FREE PROFIT!

Wait, there's an encore, since I have additional income from other sources, I don't have to pay taxes on $24.10 of it because of the Uber deductions! CHA CHING, MORE PROFIT! So, let's say I'm at 20% effective tax rate, that's an additional $4.82 profit straight into my pocket! A 39% increase in Uber profits from deductions, ALL UNTAXED!

Lord help us if my Uber deductions knock me down to a lower tax bracket! That would save me even more money on every dollar I made from any source! YES, PROFIT!

So, you see, I have no taxable income from Uber in this scenario even though I had $12.44 in profit. Scary spooky math. No taxable income and still a profit. ooooWOOOOOOOooooooo.

See, it's easy.

And no, I have never termed Uber losses as profit. I termed Uber deductions as profitable. Words are important.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> The IRS allows $.575 in per mileage deduction. My actual costs are $.17 a mile. That's $.40 per mile I drive in deductions above my actual costs.


No, your actual costs are the IRS allowed COST deduction. That is legitimate. All other claims are not.


> OK, more math, take an aspirin and stay with me.
> 
> Let's TRIPLE the miles for dead miles, a completely moronic amount!


It's perfectly acceptable here to base line a 50/50 ratio, paid to dead. Most drivers consider this as honesty between drivers and a reality in the street. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but most of the time that's where it's going to land.



> 20 miles over 30 minutes = $30 GROSS profit
> 40 dead miles = -$6.80
> 20 live miles = -$3.40
> Uber fees = -$7.36
> ...


Here, let's make it easy. $1.20 a mile in St Louis. Subtract Uber's 20%. Down to 96 cents per paid mile. Cut that in HALF to pay for your dead miles. So, 43 cents a mile overall. The IRS COST deduction is, this year, 54 cents. That means, in legit math, drivers are losing money at the rate of 11 cents a mile.

The math doesn't lie.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> No, your actual costs are the IRS allowed COST deduction. That is legitimate. All other claims are not.


I don't even know what to say. The _IRS allowed COST deduction _is $.575 a mile for 2015. What are you even talking about?

*New Standard Mileage Rates Now Available; Business Rate to Rise in 2015*
IR-2014-114, Dec. 10, 2014

WASHINGTON - The Internal Revenue Service today issued the 2015 optional standard mileage rates used to calculate the deductible costs of operating an automobile for business, charitable, medical or moving purposes.

Beginning on Jan. 1, 2015, the standard mileage rates for the use of a car, van, pickup or panel truck will be:


57.5 cents per mile for business miles driven, up from 56 cents in 2014
23 cents per mile driven for medical or moving purposes, down half a cent from 2014
14 cents per mile driven in service of charitable organizations
https://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/New-Standard-Mileage-Rates-Now-Available;-Business-Rate-to-Rise-in-2015



scrurbscrud said:


> It's perfectly acceptable here to base line a 50/50 ratio, paid to dead. Most drivers consider this as honesty between drivers and a reality in the street. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but most of the time that's where it's going to land.


So, I made more profit than in my example. Awesome. I'm so glad you approved an estimate, what would I have done otherwise? Record my dead vs live miles?!



scrurbscrud said:


> Here, let's make it easy. $1.20 a mile in St Louis. Subtract Uber's 20%. Down to 96 cents per paid mile. Cut that in HALF to pay for your dead miles. So, 43 cents a mile overall. The IRS COST deduction is, this year, 54 cents. That means, in legit math, drivers are losing money at the rate of 11 cents a mile.
> 
> The math doesn't lie.


Wait...what?!

Ohhhhhh, I see! You are claiming the deduction is your actual cost! Dude, that's just silly. Are you driving a brand new fully financed car right off the lot to your first ping? No? Because that's what the deduction is based on. My costs are $.17 a mile.

If I drive a $5,000 minivan I paid cash for and someone else drives a brand new $25,000 financed car, how could both of us have $.575 per mile costs? _Ohhhh, yeah, I see, that's pretty not smart._

Your _legit_ math is terrible. You didn't add in the per minute profit, you are using wildly inaccurate estimates for costs, and you missed the SRF.

Please, for all that is wonderful in this world, _PLEASE_ tell me you do your own taxes!


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> I don't even know what to say. The _IRS allowed COST deduction _is $.575 a mile for 2015. What are you even talking about?


I gave you the benefit of the lower cost deduction for this year. With the higher number it's worse.



> So, I made more profit than in my example. Awesome. I'm so glad you approved an estimate, what would I have done otherwise? Record my dead vs live miles?!


Even using your numbers you're making 26 cents a mile over your 17 cent per mile cost.

Drive a 100 miles. Get $26
Drive 200 miles. Get $52
Drive 300 miles. Get $78

So what? Is that supposed to be some big payday in your mind?



> Wait...what?!
> 
> Ohhhhhh, I see! You are claiming the deduction is your actual cost!


For legitimate businesses. Yes. That is the legitimate cost deduction. It's also the "marker" where profits are made and taxes are paid above that figure.
*
UberX driving has neither. *You can claim your big pay hayday at 26 cents a mile though. Knock yerself out.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> ...you want to represent that the tax deductions eliminating taxable income means you made no profit and that's not correct.


You repeatedly deflate any point you might have by tellng someone else what they think.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> I gave you the benefit of the lower cost deduction for this year. With the higher number it


A deduction is not a cost. A deduction is a deduction, a cost is a cost. My deduction for 2015 is $.575 per mile. My cost is $.17. Which part don't you get?



scrurbscrud said:


> Even using your numbers you're making 26 cents a mile over your 17 cent per mile cost.
> 
> Drive a 100 miles. Get $26
> Drive 200 miles. Get $52
> ...


Are you being intentionally obtuse? Seriously, I was very clear that 2-1 dead to live was a moronic estimate.

Let's say you get 3 rides of 8 miles in an hour with 30 minutes of fare and 24 miles deadheading:

Gross profit per ride: $11.60 x 3 = $34.80
SRF = -$5.10
Uber cut = $5.94
Mileage cost = $8.16

NET profit = $15.88

Now consider that this is tax free profit. That there are additional tax benefits that add to that profit if you have additional income. You WANT to claim a break even or loss, but you can't.



scrurbscrud said:


> For legitimate businesses. Yes. That is the legitimate cost deduction. It's also the "marker" where profits are made and taxes are paid above that figure.
> *
> UberX driving has neither. *You can claim your big pay hayday at 26 cents a mile though. Knock yerself out.


Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, no.

A deduction is not a cost. A cost is a cost and a deduction is a deduction. I can have costs I can't deduct and deductions that didn't cost me what I am deducting.

Deductions are not a marker for profit in any way, not even in your wildest imagination. The marker is your actual cost. Deductions are not costs and, in this business, can be profit.

I just realised if I use your math I can drive a lamborghini for the same exact cost of a stripped down Ford focus. I like your math.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You repeatedly deflate any point you might have by tellng someone else what they think.


I told him what he was doing, not thinking. He is mathing wrong.

Seriously, if you have an agenda and you are misrepresenting the truth, I'm calling you out. It's who I am and I'm unapologetic. When I'm wrong, I also admit it, which is sorely missing on here from the agenda crowd.


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

Wow! I only made $6.62 per hour and only $1.19 per hour was taxable.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> I told him what he was doing, not thinking. He is mathing wrong.
> 
> Seriously, if you have an agenda and you are misrepresenting the truth, I'm calling you out. It's who I am and I'm unapologetic. When I'm wrong, I also admit it, which is sorely missing on here from the agenda crowd.


That's pretty funny... YOU calling me out on misinformation. You keep telling ME what I think and what my agenda is.
<smh>
High horse arrogance.
You have no idea what I think - and it's obvious to anyone who reads my posts, I can (and do) usually argue both sides of an argument - not agenda here. I've no idea what yours is - other than to build yourself up in your own mind by putting others down.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> I was very clear that 2-1 dead to live was a moronic estimate.


People's 'deadhead' (unpaid) miles are unique to their situation. For me, after tracking my total miles acurately for 2015, I drove just over 2 miles to get paid for 1 mile, making my unpaid miles to paid miles ratio NOT moronic, but an actual 2:1. ymmv.



> Let's say you get 3 rides of 8 miles in an hour with 30 minutes of fare and 24 miles deadheading:
> Gross profit per ride: $11.60 x 3 = $34.80
> SRF = -$5.10 Uber cut = $5.94 Mileage cost = $8.16 NET profit = $15.88


Your 'labels are wrong (and I know you know better than that).
$34.80 is not your gross profit,
using your numbers:
$34.80 is your GROSS EARNINGS before expenses.
$23.76 (gross earnings less SRF, less FEES) is your NET EARNINGS.
$23.76 less your EXPENSES (actual) is your NET PROFIT = ($23.76) - (48 mi actual expense)

pick a number...
if your actual expense to drive a mile is very low, let's say $0.25/mi, then then:​$23.76 - (48x$0.25=$12) = $11.76 NET PROFIT
if your actual expense to drive a mile is closer to the nat'l avg, let's say $0.50/mi, thn​$23.76 - (48x$0.50=$24) = -$0.24 NET LOSS

That's how to determine bottom line dollars: Gross Revenues, Less Expenses = Net Profit/Loss. 
(Note: that scenario is applicable only to an individual. If you have incorporated as a s-corp, c-corp or LLC, it's different becuase the corp receives the income and it/you pay yourself a wage or a commision, or whatever.)


> Now consider that this is tax free profit. That there are additional tax benefits that add to that profit if you have additional income. You WANT to claim a break even or loss, but you can't.


Stop already... you cannot talk about any one elses tax situation.
That's why we always talk pay (salary, wages, hourly wage, contract work, piece work) in terms of GROSS earnings, not 'after-tax' earnings. Some poeple will realize a tax benefit, others will realize less of a tax benefit, others will realize no tax benefit at all. A tax deduction is NOT earnings. What additinal tax benefit someone may or may not receive becuase they can offset non-rideshare income, is NOT relevant to the profitability of risdeshare earnings.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Close, but no cigar. Tax deductions can far exceed actual expenses, like your mileage deduction, meaning you aren't even taxed on profit in some cases. This creates the illusion of no profit for those that don't understand the difference between taxable income and profit.


You don't seem to understand that if your business venture isn't profitable the IRS does not pay you to make a loss... any deductions beyond your earnings (that do not offset taxable income) can be carried over to the next tax year and applied to that income... but if your venture is never profitable, IRS will not allow future deductions. *If your expenses (investment) in rideshare continues to result in losses, IRS will kindly suggest you start reporting those expenses as a "Charitable Contribution"*


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Are you the pot or the kettle?


The very fact that you ask that undermines your continued asserion that I have "an agenda".


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> Now consider that this is tax free profit.


There is no such thing in real world math. 
*
The reason there is no tax is because there is neither wage nor profit to tax.*

Using your cost to drive you are merely working the spread between some contrived low cost in your own head and the IRS mileage deduction. It's not a sustainable model, period.

Using your math you're netting 26 cents a mile. Have at it. You'll have to drive 20,000 miles with zero pay to yourself to buy that replacement 5 grand vehicle. At 20 mph avg. in city driving that equates to 6 months worth of 8 hour days, 5 days a week. With no pay for doing it.


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## JuanIguana (Nov 24, 2015)

ADX said:


> Oh I'll go there, I just got home, made 226 today in 6 hours, pre expenses, 150total miles.
> 
> I'll give you my profit(Pre tax) in a hour or 2.
> I'll do it two ways: income - total miles *.575 and income - gas/repairs/oil changes
> ...


 so you netted $136. ($226 - 150×.60) in 6 hours or $22 / hr. Good day for a cabby. Whoopdee freaking do. And you live in San Fran? Right, so how do you afford living there on that? You don't. So how far away from San Fran do you live? Did you include those miles? Uh huh.


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## JuanIguana (Nov 24, 2015)

ADX said:


> Here is my final profits (excluding tax):
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnNDVySzRYeVVmM00/view?usp=sharing
> Metromile reported miles is my mileage tracking ODB device.
> 
> ...


You didn't keep log of miles????? Oh my.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ADX said:


> 7. I don't "chase" fares, there's a reason why I made what I made, I know when to chase and when not to.


This may be difficult to really understand for drivers that do not work in a busy metro area where it IS possible to do back-to-back-to-back trips with nearly no dead miles.

I did a 'test' a couple of weeks ago, focusing my driving in the downtown area and was able to acheive a very high efficiency (which is what Kalancik says his goal is for drivers). I know it's possible. I just don't want to drive like that. The in&out, doors openineg closing, wear and tear on my very nice cars (leather) - the constant hassle... all that's just not for me. THAT is taxi driving and I want to leave that for taxis which are far better equipped, trained and experienced (and respected) to handle that kind of driving.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

JuanIguana said:


> so you netted $136. ($226 - 150×.60) in 6 hours or $22 / hr. Good day for a cabby. Whoopdee freaking do. And you live in San Fran? Right, so how do you afford living there on that? You don't. So how far away from San Fran do you live? Did you include those miles? Uh huh.


Too bad you didn't read any of my other posts, I live in SF (rent free in a relative's basement) and also in parent's home 20 miles away from SF. I pay them $800/mo in rent. And as for log keeping, yes I know I messed up, but Uber and Lyft's statements would give me 18k miles out of the 30k total miles driven on my car.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

ADX said:


> Too bad you didn't read any of my other posts, I live in SF (rent free in a relative's basement) and also in parent's home 20 miles away from SF. I pay them $800/mo in rent. And as for log keeping, yes I know I messed up, but Uber and Lyft's statements would give me 18k miles out of the 30k total miles driven on my car.


This is part of why your results are atypical and anectdotal - and have no releveance to anyone who isn't living in a basement, rent free, in one of the most active rideshare markets in the US.
Most rideshare drivers have a life.

It's interesting (and thanks for sharing your numbers) but your results are not particulalry meaningful - and certainly not applicable - to anyone but you.
(Yes, I know that YOU know that... but that's why you are getting all kinds of heat for your numbers).


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## JaredJ (Aug 7, 2015)

Those of you criticizing ADX for his mileage to and from SF are grasping at straws. Who doesn't commute, especially in a major metropolitan area? If he's driving for long periods of time it certainly mitigates his commute. There's no point reasoning with a lot of the people here, ADX. They're generally unreasonable, bitter, and discovered these forums to vent their frustrations. You made a livable wage, but I emplor you to consider your long-term goals. I used Uber to help me change career course and it worked great, but for your health and long-term prosperity I hope you're pursuing other paths.


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## JuanIguana (Nov 24, 2015)

JaredJ said:


> Those of you criticizing ADX for his mileage to and from SF are grasping at straws. Who doesn't commute, especially in a major metropolitan area? If he's driving for long periods of time it certainly mitigates his commute. There's no point reasoning with a lot of the people here, ADX. They're generally unreasonable, bitter, and discovered these forums to vent their frustrations. You made a livable wage, but I emplor you to consider your long-term goals. I used Uber to help me change career course and it worked great, but for your health and long-term prosperity I hope you're pursuing other paths.


and by all means, keep milking the free rent - maybe JJ here will let you room with him for free too. Maybe he'll let you borrow his car to uber too....and feed you before you head out. Umm, no JJ, I don't commute. But it's disingenuous, if not naive, to paint something that is more illusion (and possibly delusional) than fact, very much like Uber's original claims of being able to make $25 - $35 an hour. But it's ok - you 2 might just make a nice couple and you'll have uber to thank.


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## JaredJ (Aug 7, 2015)

^ this as a point in case. ADX wasn't substantiating Uber's wage claims, just stating that he made a livable wage. You weak minded members associate Uber's doctrine with individual posters findings. $25-35/hr was feasible in Oct 2013 when I first started driving, but of course, not anymore. As for your pseudo-tax professionals deducting the standard 0.56...thats a cap. Many vehicles cost less than that to operate...much less if you're operating a hybrid and got it used at a good price. As grown people, you should be ashamed that you cant differentiate your anger with Uber and an individual person and have to use ADX as a punching bag. Tener un poco de respeto.


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## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

Your income and your taxable income are not the same.


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## USArmy31B30 (Oct 30, 2015)

ADX said:


> Here you go boys and girls, I drove in SF starting in February 2015 on UberX and Lyft.
> 
> Link:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_MBb9RcITGnQWZXdFhwSHpmcWc/view?usp=sharing
> ...


How can you say you EARNED X amount of $ per hour when you haven't deducted your operating cost?! What's your mileage per week? What's your maintenance cost per month? your other expenses? You have to deduct those before you get your per hour for the week. After that you have to get the total for the month, then quarter and finally, annually. Only after the end of the year you can say the FINAL per hour you have EARNED after you deduct all your operating cost for that year...

Example:

if my insurance went up because of gap insurance from Oct to Dec by $50 a month, I have to deduct $50 per month on gross earnings before I divide monthly earnings to hours worked to include mileage cost from home and back.

If my vehicle costs .12 a gallon on gas, .05 per mile on upcoming maintenace cost, .02 cents per mile on tires, .01 per mile on brakes .01 per mile on oil changes, and of course depreciation cost which in my vehicle it's .10 cents a mile... and other things you spent because of your business like car washes, car wash supplies if you DIY...

What kind of car do you drive?
MPG?

Did you keep track of your mileage? Did you count the hours YOU WERE on the road? including app off going home?

I just don't like GROSS FARE before costs because that is not your TRUE EARNINGS per hour.

Though I really like your spreadsheet, but there should be more to it including, mileage, tips you received that YOU ARE declaring and not...


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Thank you ADX. I want to be you. What many may not realize about these numbers that show how impressive adx is ...

1. Twice as much from Lyft. No doubt gets the full commission rebated. Everyone else on this forum say they get twice the business from Uber. Doing something right

2. Works straight Fri through Sun. SF always surging those hours -even short rides are profitable.

3. Has good relations with family.

4. Now knows the City well to work smart. Super smart.

Just one question adx. Metromile told me if I drive Lyft at all they won't cover me. You had any accidents this year?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)




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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> View attachment 27665​


I disagree ...


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> People's 'deadhead' (unpaid) miles are unique to their situation. For me, after tracking my total miles acurately for 2015, I drove just over 2 miles to get paid for 1 mile, making my unpaid miles to paid miles ratio NOT moronic, but an actual 2:1. ymmv.


1 mile driving to pax and 1 mile driving pax is 1:1, not 2:1. I gave 2:1 to exaggerate the dead miles in my example to show you it was still profitable at 2:1.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> pick a number...
> if your actual expense to drive a mile is very low, let's say $0.25/mi, then then:$23.76 - (48x$0.25=$12) = $11.76 NET PROFIT
> if your actual expense to drive a mile is closer to the nat'l avg, let's say $0.50/mi, thn$23.76 - (48x$0.50=$24) = -$0.24 NET LOSS
> 
> ...


Gross earnings, Gross revenue, Gross profit...it makes no difference, we all know it is the Gross. I gave you my cost per mile a dozen times, so stop trying to double it to prove your erroneous hypothetical.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> Stop already... you cannot talk about any one elses tax situation.
> That's why we always talk pay (salary, wages, hourly wage, contract work, piece work) in terms of GROSS earnings, not 'after-tax' earnings. Some poeple will realize a tax benefit, others will realize less of a tax benefit, others will realize no tax benefit at all. A tax deduction is NOT earnings. What additinal tax benefit someone may or may not receive becuase they can offset non-rideshare income, is NOT relevant to the profitability of risdeshare earnings.


I didn't talk about anyone else's tax situation, I said _That there are additional tax benefits that add to that profit *if* you have additional income._

I see you have now adjusted your _legit math_ of $.54 a mile (which is actually $.575 for 2015). So we agree that is not an expense. We are getting somewhere. Slowly, but we are.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You don't seem to understand that if your business venture isn't profitable the IRS does not pay you to make a loss... any deductions beyond your earnings (that do not offset taxable income) can be carried over to the next tax year and applied to that income... but if your venture is never profitable, IRS will not allow future deductions. *If your expenses (investment) in rideshare continues to result in losses, IRS will kindly suggest you start reporting those expenses as a "Charitable Contribution"*


But I am making a profit, just not enough to be taxed when using the standard per mile deduction. IF the IRS requires it down the road, I just switch to actual expenses vs the standard mileage deduction. I do not know if they consider using the standard deduction in the business / hobby equation.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> *The reason there is no tax is because there is neither wage nor profit to tax.*
> 
> Using your cost to drive you are merely working the spread between some contrived low cost in your own head and the IRS mileage deduction. It's not a sustainable model, period.
> 
> Using your math you're netting 26 cents a mile. Have at it. You'll have to drive 20,000 miles with zero pay to yourself to buy that replacement 5 grand vehicle. At 20 mph avg. in city driving that equates to 6 months worth of 8 hour days, 5 days a week. With no pay for doing it.


$.26 a mile?! Dude, what are you even ranting about now? And where are the minutes, XL, and surge, silly?! Dude, come on, now you're just clownin'.

No, the reason for no tax is the standard per mile deduction exceeds my income. However, as we have shown you over and over and over, that deduction is not my actual expense, so I do have profit. How do you think I buy things from my Uber income? Magic?

I'm not _working a spread_. Profit and taxable income are NOT the same thing. They have nothing to do with each other. One is real world money in the bank above my actual expenses and the other is a fiction from unrealistic deductions. And yes, profit in the bank and not paying federal income tax because of deductions absolutely is a sustainable model.

I am paying for the van when I deducted the lost equity per mile. Man, you just don't get it at all, do you? I could pay cash and just start $5,000 in the hole, paying off the van on the front end, or deduct the lost equity by the mile, not both. I am doing the later.


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## ADX (Nov 22, 2015)

Sacto Burbs said:


> Thank you ADX. I want to be you. What many may not realize about these numbers that show how impressive adx is ...
> 
> 1. Twice as much from Lyft. No doubt gets the full commission rebated. Everyone else on this forum say they get twice the business from Uber. Doing something right
> 
> ...


Thanks for the admiration haha.
Metromile doesn't work with Lyft, only Uber. I switched from Geico to Mercury. I did have accidents but they were all under $1000 in damages so they dont affect my record. You could also check with farmers.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> 1 mile driving to pax and 1 mile driving pax is 1:1, not 2:1. I gave 2:1 to exaggerate the dead miles in my example to show you it was still profitable at 2:1.


Driving 300 miles total and getting paid for 100 miles driven is 2:1 dead-to-paid miles.
People here are far too "trip" obsessed when evaluating profitablity - trying to extrapolate bad 'per mile #'s into annual figures. To be accurate, you have to look at large period of driving (3 mos, 6 mos, a year) and then divide down to determine your weekly, daily and per mile averages. Anything else is just guess work.


> Gross earnings, Gross revenue, Gross profit...it makes no difference, we all know it is the Gross. I gave you my cost per mile a dozen times, so stop trying to double it to prove your erroneous hypothetical.


You just really seem to not like the fact that words have meaning.


> I didn't talk about anyone else's tax situation, I said _That there are additional tax benefits that add to that profit _*if*_ you have additional income._


 Indeed you did say that. It just seemed to me that you were pretty much saying ''and everyone has other income'... my mistake.


> I see you have now adjusted your _legit math_ of $.54 a mile (which is actually $.575 for 2015). So we agree that is not an expense. We are getting somewhere. Slowly, but we are.


Adjusted? I don't think so. But I do think we agree that the std milage deduction is a tool for claiming a tax deduction and does not reflect a driver's actual expenses. Two different animals - which many here confuse.


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## Father Fred (Jan 23, 2016)

Very true Michael - Cleveland


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> *$.26 a mile?! * Dude, what are you even ranting about now? And where are the minutes, XL, and surge, silly?! Dude, come on, now you're just clownin'.


We're talking about Uberx std. rates and using, yes, your own math.

And usually when real math hits, drivers who cheerlead for Uberx std. always restort to "what about surge!" Yeah, what about it? No one here complains about getting a fair higher price. When it's possible. And very often it ain't.



> I'm not _working a spread_.


Of course you are. * We already did the math using your numbers.* You are in math denial and can't see the obvious.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

JaredJ said:


> Those of you criticizing ADX for his mileage to and from SF are grasping at straws. Who doesn't commute, especially in a major metropolitan area? If he's driving for long periods of time it certainly mitigates his commute. There's no point reasoning with a lot of the people here, ADX. They're generally unreasonable, bitter, and discovered these forums to vent their frustrations. You made a livable wage, but I emplor you to consider your long-term goals. I used Uber to help me change career course and it worked great, but for your health and long-term prosperity I hope you're pursuing other paths.


Is he getting an average of $2.60+ per paid mile doing Uberx? Unlikely. Just do the math.


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