# Uber and Lyft just made a substantial change to pay rates in California



## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

I had a $3.00 ride on Lyft last night and it really caught my attention because I've never seen such a low payment for a ride. Usually the minimum pay on a short ride is $3.75. Got me to looking at pay rates this morning. Turns out both Lyft and Uber made changes since last week. The per mile pay is up and the per minute pay is down.

Here's what last week looked like. For several years per mile has been .6825 cents, and per minute has been .2925 cents.

*UBER*













*LYFT*













Yesterday the rates look like this:


*UBER*











*LYFT*


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Did you agree to a new TOS update?


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## SpinalCabbage (Feb 5, 2020)

Let's see your fare card.


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## UbeRoBo (Nov 19, 2015)

It's exactly what you foolishly agree to every time you log on to the platform. You only have yourselves to blame.


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## Livekilometers96 (Apr 5, 2021)

If yo


_Tron_ said:


> I had a $3.00 ride on Lyft last night and it really caught my attention because I've never seen such a low payment for a ride. Usually the minimum pay on a short ride is $3.75. Got me to looking at pay rates this morning. Turns out both Lyft and Uber made changes since last week. The per mile pay is up and the per minute pay is down.
> 
> Here's what last week looked like. For several years per mile has been .6825 cents, and per minute has been .2925 cents.
> 
> ...


We’re you in the Coachella Valley or Temecula ares by chance? Both those areas still pay the unbalanced rates. I can’t say for sure but I’m guessing the more spread out rural areas without much business stayed with the old unbalanced rates.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

W00dbutcher said:


> Did you agree to a new TOS update?


Back in January. No updates since. I don't think they feel the need to inform or alter the TOS when they changes rates.




Livekilometers96 said:


> We’re you in the Coachella Valley or Temecula ares by chance? Both those areas still pay the unbalanced rates. I can’t say for sure but I’m guessing the more spread out rural areas without much business stayed with the old unbalanced rates.


No. Not driving there. I cant say I drive rural areas, although I do at times, I would say that I mostly drive in a moderate sized metro area (< 500,000).


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

W00dbutcher said:


> Did you agree to a new TOS update?


"Disagreeing" with a TOS change means you're fired, period.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

_Tron_ said:


> Back in January. No updates since. I don't think they feel the need to inform or alter the TOS when they changes rates.


Whether they inform you of changes or not doesn't change things because you have no say in the matter anyway. The only thing you can opt out of is arbitration within 30 days of new TOS.


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## SpinalCabbage (Feb 5, 2020)

https://www.uber.com/blog/california/upcoming-changes-to-the-driver-app/


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> "Disagreeing" with a TOS change means you're fired, period.


Yes it does. It also means you agreed to said pay.

Sucks but that how uber and lyft do it.

A simple "If then else" problem that the values that are important are $null


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SpinalCabbage said:


> https://www.uber.com/blog/california/upcoming-changes-to-the-driver-app/


If you notice they didn't try to justify removing the 25% service fee cap. 

Uber could have retained the service fee cap while offering pax Upfront Pricing. A fixed 25% service fee has NEVER been mutually exclusive with Upfront Pricing. It's one of biggest ruses of all time.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

W00dbutcher said:


> Yes it does. It also means you agreed to said pay.


For what it's worth, if you've seen "The Godfather" you know that Jack Waltz "agreed" to give Johnny Fontane the movie part he wanted.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Just bear in mind that this is NOT the Upfront pricing scheme that drivers in other states have been discussing. We are still bound to a minute and mileage rate, it's just that the values suddenly changed.

In fact I am not even sure this is such a bad thing. I posted the info partially to hear what others think of the new rates. Obviously it can hurt short trips. My two $3 fares last night were less than a mile. And this was partially due to a 60 cent drop in the base rate from $1.65 to $1.05. And the drop in the per minute rate is going to make added STOPS even more unpleasant while we sit in the car waiting for the rider.

But on longer trips this appears to be a windfall. That is why I posted, really. A jump from 68 cents a mile to $1.55 a mile looks too good to be true. What's the catch? What am I missing? But while the wheels are turning this is _appears_ to be more money.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

By the way, I neglected to post the additional details of the rides. Here is the customer payments section of one of the examples in the OP.

Customer paid $8.04. Before the Zero Emissions incentive the ride paid me $4.27. So that is a 46% take by Uber. A bit on the high side of average. It will take some more rides to see if Uber is "balancing the scales" of the higher mileage fee by taking a larger percentage of the fare. Same with the Marketplace fee.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

_Tron_ said:


> Just bear in mind that this is NOT the Upfront pricing scheme that drivers in other states have been discussing. We are still bound to a minute and mileage rate, it's just that the values suddenly changed.
> 
> In fact I am not even sure this is such a bad thing. I posted the info partially to hear what others think of the new rates. Obviously it can hurt short trips. My two $3 fares last night were less than a mile. And this was partially due to a 60 cent drop in the base rate from $1.65 to $1.05. And the drop in the per minute rate is going to make added STOPS even more unpleasant while we sit in the car waiting for the rider.
> 
> But on longer trips this appears to be a windfall. That is why I posted, really. A jump from 68 cents a mile to $1.55 a mile looks too good to be true. What's the catch? What am I missing? But while the wheels are turning this is _appears_ to be more money.


The actual name for the "experimental" system is "Upfront Fares". The use of the word "upfront" is causing a lot of confusion because the previous system was called "Upfront Pricing".

Some CA markets such as LA and San Diego don't even have base fares. 

In markets where the majority of rides are short such as college towns or in markets where the majority of rides are in traffic-clogged areas, this pay change is a hefty pay cut due to the huge cut in the base fare from $1.65 to $1.05 as well as the massive cut in the per minute rate from 29 cents to a truly poor 12 cents per minute.

Whenever these m-fornicators tinker with driver pay, the result is always an overall pay cut for the drivers.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

How's that prop 22 looking?


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Looks great to me! Bad for rush hour but great otherwise. Especially longer trips.

Reno is $0.87/mi and $0.15/min. I would trade for those rates!

Probably terrible in LA traffic though.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

UbeRoBo said:


> It's exactly what you foolishly agree to every time you log on to the platform. You only have yourselves to blame.


"Blame" hasn't got to with anything, lol. Nobody has said that there is any "blame" to apportion. Except you.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

_Tron_ said:


> In fact I am not even sure this is such a bad thing. I posted the info partially to hear what others think of the new rates. Obviously it can hurt short trips.


Yep, the drop in minimum payment will be bad for min fare shorty rides.


> But on longer trips this appears to be a windfall. That is why I posted, really. A jump from 68 cents a mile to $1.55 a mile looks too good to be true. What's the catch? What am I missing? But while the wheels are turning this is _appears_ to be more money.


Once a trip has passed the old min fare shorty threshold, the important factor in the comparison between old and new rates is not trip length but average trip speed.

Analysis shows that, ignoring the drop in base pay, the equilibrium average trip speed (where pay under the new rates is the same as the pay under the old rates) is 11.72 mph. Any trip with an average speed above this will be paid higher than at the old rates and, conversely, any trip slower than 11.72 mph average will be paid less than at the old rates. As long as the trip is over the old min shorty threshold, it trip length does not affect it, whether the trip is 5 miles, 10 miles, or 50. Below is an example trip of 12 miles as an illustration:











So, slow in-traffic trips will be major money losers, while long distance freeway rides at night will be revenue positive.


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## Grand Lake (Feb 27, 2018)

I'm still getting .6825/mi .2925/min on Lyft today. Northern California.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Grand Lake said:


> I'm still getting .6825/mi .2925/min on Lyft today. Northern California.


Yeah, could you keep an eye on that, and if it changes let us know.


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## SpinalCabbage (Feb 5, 2020)

Inland Empire:

$0.808 a mile.
$.012 a minute.
$0.20 a minute wait time.
$4.00 cancellation fee.
Minimum Trip Earnings: $3.20


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

elelegido said:


> Yep, the drop in minimum payment will be bad for min fare shorty rides.


What's funny is that from the beginning Uber has had trouble getting drivers to accept short trips. Now they have installed the biggest incentive yet to motivate drivers to pass on these fares. Go figure.

This policy seems to fall into the Uber-shooting-itself-in-the-foot category. Greed is one thing. I can understand greed. Systemic stupidity at a corporate level is harder to understand. I mean, sure, some bean counter at Uber calculated that of all the trips taken, there are more short trips (or low speed trips as you point out) than long trips, so Uber's bottom line is increased. But, did that bean counter account for the drop in acceptance rate for short trips? I am far less inclined to take a short trip if it means a $3 ride.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

By the way, I keep mentioning Uber. But Lyft is in lockstep here. I'm sort of assuming Uber spearheaded this operation because they are the usual suspect. But a large question remains unanswered: "How is it that Lyft engaged the new pay rates *the very same week Uber did*? There's normally a lag before they copy.


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

_Tron_ said:


> What's funny is that from the beginning Uber has had trouble getting drivers to accept short trips. Now they have installed the biggest incentive yet to motivate drivers to pass on these fares. Go figure.
> 
> This policy seems to fall into the Uber-shooting-itself-in-the-foot category. Greed is one thing. I can understand greed. Systemic stupidity at a corporate level is harder to understand. I mean, sure, some bean counter at Uber calculated that of all the trips taken, there are more short trips (or low speed trips as you point out) than long trips, so Uber's bottom line is increased. But, did that bean counter account for the drop in acceptance rate for short trips? I am far less inclined to take a short trip if it means a $3 ride.


Race to the bottom. There will still be takers, esp EV drivers who are more competitive on short, local trips. Yeah, capitalism.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

_Tron_ said:


> By the way, I keep mentioning Uber. But Lyft is in lockstep here. I'm sort of assuming Uber spearheaded this operation because they are the usual suspect. But a large question remains unanswered: "How is it that Lyft engaged the new pay rates *the very same week Uber did*? There's normally a lag before they copy.


The last time I saw Uber and Lyft directly compete with each other was the bidding wars for drivers that they had in 2016. Uber would offer an earnings guarantee, which Lyft would then better, then Uber would increase their offer and so on, until the bidding reached $50 per hour minimum pay in SF. That ended suddenly, and I'm pretty sure that Uber and Lyft realised that bidding wars were a zero sum game in which they both lost, and that they probably agreed to act in future as a cartel, agreeing driver pay and a framework for pax prices between them.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

p7wang said:


> Race to the bottom. There will still be takers, esp EV drivers who are more competitive on short, local trips. Yeah, capitalism.


Possibly. As you know I drive an EV. And like I said, $3 for a ride is literally not worth letting risk into my car.


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

_Tron_ said:


> Possibly. As you know I drive an EV. And like I said, $3 for a ride is literally not worth letting risk into my car.


Yes, and an EV driver who does not value his/her life would undercut you and take that drive. LOL


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## The Entomologist (Sep 23, 2018)

elelegido said:


> The last time I saw Uber and Lyft directly compete with each other was the bidding wars for drivers that they had in 2016. Uber would offer an earnings guarantee, which Lyft would then better, then Uber would increase their offer and so on, until the bidding reached $50 per hour minimum pay in SF. That ended suddenly, and I'm pretty sure that Uber and Lyft realised that bidding wars were a zero sum game in which they both lost, and that they probably agreed to act in future as a cartel, agreeing driver pay and a framework for pax prices between them.


This time they are screwed though, other apps have entered the race for the ant's work, whatever they agree to fix, they can't agree with other apps, different business models, the way things are today, for example, instacart is suffering greatly because they cannot compete for ants, people are forgetting the app and even good jobs are being left out simply because everyone got fed up of seeing shit all day and decided to stick to another app that was paying more, too many apps have jumped on the market to stick to one option today.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Just checked a random fare from yesterday, and the fare is back to "normal". The only difference was that I was driving in a different locale 100 miles away. I'll double check the rate again next time I'm in the former locale.


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

_Tron_ said:


> Just checked a random fare from yesterday, and the fare is back to "normal". The only difference was that I was driving in a different locale 100 miles away. I'll double check the rate again next time I'm in the former locale.
> 
> View attachment 645702



Hm... noticed that Zero Emission Incentive - would make short trips more profitable.


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## Justice41ca (11 mo ago)

_Tron_ said:


> But on longer trips this appears to be a windfall. That is why I posted, really. A jump from 68 cents a mile to $1.55 a mile looks too good to be true. What's the catch? What am I missing? But while the wheels are turning this is _appears_ to be more money.


No! It is not more money. Not for the driver anyway. Here is what they do.
Lower the base rate = driver less money
I noticed this happens when there is a surge also. Base rate goes down etc. 
Our per minute went down and that is where it is going to hurt. 
You are stuck in traffic can't move for an hour = driver less money
They want you to wait for the customer = driver less money
Now what they are NOT telling you is that they are charging the customer the service fee and marketplace fee. Which low and behold ........... You make $7 and Uber makes $8,
You make $22 and they make $24 or even $28.
If they have a sale or special, it comes out of your rate not theirs. Customer pays $12. you get $4 and Uber gets the rest. 
They are taking 50-60% of what the customer pays.
All this while the gas goes up over $5 a gal.


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## RadarRider (Feb 12, 2019)

_Tron_ said:


> I had a $3.00 ride on Lyft last night and it really caught my attention because I've never seen such a low payment for a ride. Usually the minimum pay on a short ride is $3.75. Got me to looking at pay rates this morning. Turns out both Lyft and Uber made changes since last week. The per mile pay is up and the per minute pay is down.
> 
> Here's what last week looked like. For several years per mile has been .6825 cents, and per minute has been .2925 cents.
> 
> ...


What city and which level of Uber? Surely not XL?


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## RadarRider (Feb 12, 2019)

_Tron_ said:


> Just checked a random fare from yesterday, and the fare is back to "normal". The only difference was that I was driving in a different locale 100 miles away. I'll double check the rate again next time I'm in the former locale.
> 
> View attachment 645702



The rates change in certain zones!


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

RadarRider said:


> What city and which level of Uber? Surely not XL?


Uber X.

And please don't call me Shirley.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

As others have pointed out, the change in base rates / per mile / per minute pay rates are locale specific (zone specific). A few weeks since posting, the driving locale I spotted the change in is still $1.05 base rate and $1.55 and $.12 distance and time. However, my other driving area remains at the old rates... $1.65, $.68, $.29.

I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop, but yesterday I realized it probably won't. Uber seems to be using statistical analysis from their now huge Big Data store to determine which locales will net them more profit with the revised rates. The locale I am experiencing the revised rates in has a geographically small, very dense downtown area where most the restaurants are located. Hotels are in or near downtown. So, lots of short trips. Say 1-2 miles and 4-7 minutes.

Whereas the driving locale with the old rates has a lot of freeway rides with much longer trip distances. The math is pretty easy. As with other changes in the past year, such as up front fares, Uber is _running the numbers_ on a micro level to optimize their income.


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