# Accountant "You know you're losing money right"



## fwtexguy

He said "I hope you've quit driving"


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## Ubernic

I still don't get why people post this stuff. You only lose money if you drive in a way that loses money. I do not have a car suitable for X, I can't make much if anything if I drive on X, so I drive Select, and I make a profit. If you see that driving for the standard rates make you no money, then you need to adjust, if you can't drive for another program then focus on less dead miles, and more surge time. If you spend all day driving base fares with no surge then yea, you probably will not make much.

The X drivers that seem successful do incentives, cross sell drivers for referral money, and stay off the grid unless it is party time.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Ubernic said:


> I still don't get why people post this stuff. You only lose money if you drive in a way that loses money. I do not have a car suitable for X, I can't make much if anything if I drive on X, so I drive Select, and I make a profit. If you see that driving for the standard rates make you no money, then you need to adjust, if you can't drive for another program then focus on less dead miles, and more surge time. If you spend all day driving base fares with no surge then yea, you probably will not make much.


Would you mind sharing how many trips total you have made driving Uber - and what % of those are SELECT? And how many miles you have put on your select car driving Uber?


> The X drivers that seem successful do incentives,


I'm afraid that's just not true. If you qualify to earn an incentive, all it means is that you have limited your driving during those hours to do, say $30/hr in FARES for the period - which is $22.50 in EARNINGS/hr.

Since incentives are in place during the '_party times_' and to qualify you have to accept 90% of ride requests (or whatever) _and_ remain in a designated area, then far more often than not you are going to exceed $22.50/hr and not qualify for any 'incentive'.

Incentives are designed to flood an area with drivers during times of high demand, which keeps surges at a minimum and assures that riders can get a car relatively quickly. They do NOTHING to benefit drivers.


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## FrankG

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Would you mind sharing how many trips total you have made driving Uber - and what % of those are SELECT? And how many miles you have put on your select car driving Uber?I'm afraid that's just not true. If you qualify to earn an incentive, all it means is that you have limited your driving during those hours to do, say $30hr in FARES for the period - which is $22.50 in EARNINGS/hr.
> 
> Since incentives are in place during the '_party times_' and to qualify you have to accept 90% of ride requests (or whatever) _and_ remain in a designated area, then far more often than not you are going to exceed $22.50/hr and not qualify for any 'incentive'.
> 
> Incentives are designed to flood an area with drivers during times of high demand, which keeps surges at a minimum and assures that riders can get a car relatively quickly. They do NOTHING to benefit drivers.


Read the statement sent by Uber. Uber collects between 45% and 50% in fees. Not 25%.


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## Michael - Cleveland

FrankG said:


> Read the statement sent by Uber. Uber collects between 45% and 50% in fees. Not 25%.


Read your contract. Uber collects 100% of the SRF/Booking fee (which is 100% charged to the rider) and 20%/25%/28% of the Fare. The remainder is the driver earnings.

And it doesn't matter. No one deposits "percentages" in the bank each week - 
they deposit their earnings.

You want to argue over semantics?
Knock yourself out.


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## agtg

ha ha ha ha

Oh... uh... yeah. Accountants are pragmatic like that.


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## ChortlingCrison

Ubernic said:


> I still don't get why people post this stuff. You only lose money if you drive in a way that loses money. I do not have a car suitable for X, I can't make much if anything if I drive on X, so I drive Select, and I make a profit. If you see that driving for the standard rates make you no money, then you need to adjust, if you can't drive for another program then focus on less dead miles, and more surge time. If you spend all day driving base fares with no surge then yea, you probably will not make much.
> 
> The X drivers that seem successful do incentives, cross sell drivers for referral money, and stay off the grid unless it is party time.


 Thanks for the crash course in uber accounting 101. Give it up already. It's obvious you're an uber shill.


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## Ubernic

ChortlingCrison said:


> Thanks for the crash course in uber accounting 101. Give it up already. It's obvious you're an uber shill.


Poor argument.


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## Bruce Whitten

Surges are great when you get them, but don't chase across town for them. You want as little 'empty' driving as possible to keep gas cost down. If you're not on a call, park somewhere. Preferably close to someplace that surges fairly regularly.

Friday and Saturday are good nights to be busy, even with the extra part time drivers out. Weeknights at the airports can be good, at least here in Dallas. A single long drive, especially with a 2x surge like I had last night, can rack up the dough. 

I made 142.95 last night. Take out about 40% for assorted taxes (might include sales in Dallas, no one has answered me on that one) and I have 85.77 left. That brings me to about 250 for the week so far.

We won't be rolling deep in the cash, but it's possible to make the bills.

If we're losing money, show us. Break down the numbers. Demonstrate.


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## Older Chauffeur

Bruce Whitten said:


> Surges are great when you get them, but don't chase across town for them. You want as little 'empty' driving as possible to keep gas cost down. If you're not on a call, park somewhere. Preferably close to someplace that surges fairly regularly.
> 
> Friday and Saturday are good nights to be busy, even with the extra part time drivers out. Weeknights at the airports can be good, at least here in Dallas. A single long drive, especially with a 2x surge like I had last night, can rack up the dough.
> 
> I made 142.95 last night. Take out about 40% for assorted taxes (might include sales in Dallas, no one has answered me on that one) and I have 85.77 left. That brings me to about 250 for the week so far.
> 
> We won't be rolling deep in the cash, but it's possible to make the bills.
> 
> If we're losing money, show us. Break down the numbers. Demonstrate.


You may be losing money if you figure what it costs to operate your car, including depreciation. You are trading equity in, and the value of, your vehicle for cash flow. Can't break down the numbers unless you supply them.
The good news is that your estimated 40% in taxes may be high. If you track your miles driven for business and keep a contemporaneous record of same you can greatly reduce your taxable profits.


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## SEAL Team 5

Bruce Whitten said:


> I made 142.95 last night. Take out about 40% for assorted taxes (might include sales in Dallas, no one has answered me on that one)


You guys in Dallas have sales tax on a service? That sucks!!! I only thought NYC did that.


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## Undermensch

Older Chauffeur said:


> You may be losing money if you figure what it costs to operate your car, including depreciation. You are trading equity in, and the value of, your vehicle for cash flow. Can't break down the numbers unless you supply them.
> The good news is that your estimated 40% in taxes may be high. If you track your miles driven for business and keep a contemporaneous record of same you can greatly reduce your taxable profits.


The trading equity line is not always true or useful.

In some cases it's like telling a banker who makes $500k/year that he's just trading equity in his $500 pair of shoes.

Case in point: I've made 3x what my car was worth when I started.

There is no equity left to trade. So since I'm still making money I must be setting up a paradox that's going to end the universe right?


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## Older Chauffeur

Undermensch said:


> The trading equity line is not always true or useful.
> 
> In some cases it's like telling a banker who makes $500k/year that he's just trading equity in his $500 pair of shoes.
> 
> Case in point: I've made 3x what my car was worth when I started.
> 
> There is no equity left to trade. So since I'm still making money I must be setting up a paradox that's going to end the universe right?


Notice the key word "may" in my statement. Not everyone is as disciplined as you are when it comes to deciding what to drive and how much to spend on it. You are making it work but I think, from what I have read on these boards, that you are in the minority.
Sorry, I don't get the banker analogy. One of my clients is a retired banker and a very astute investor. I drive him around in either a nine year old Toyota or an eleven year old Lexus. He is not cheap, and tips generously, I'm happy to say.


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## Reversoul

fwtexguy said:


> He said "I hope youv'e quit driving"


U should probably find a more competent accountant. Either that, or figure out how to make money.

If you're losing money you're doing something wrong.

Example: I deliver eats in a college town on the north side of ATL. Most of the dorms are a Mile or less from restaurant. Getting 2 separate orders at the same time and driving a Mile to customers means a quick $8.

I'm not using much gas so it's a lot of profit and quick turn over. I try to do at least 4 an hour.

I found a way to work smarter, not harder. Find out what works for you.


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## Driving and Driven

Undermensch said:


> The trading equity line is not always true or useful.
> 
> In some cases it's like telling a banker who makes $500k/year that he's just trading equity in his $500 pair of shoes.


I used to hear the "trading equity for cash" line so much, I used to believe it, and then I sat down and gave it some serious thought. Even if I only drove it to my regular job five days a week and parked it the rest of the time, I would still be losing a relatively decent chunk of equity in the vehicle simply based on it aging. Mileage is only one factor in depreciation. Each year that goes by contributes to the depreciation, in the minds of dealerships and consumers, even if it were barely driven. I may as well try to pay some bills and improve my credit if I can as long as I have this resource available to me. When I have paid enough bills and paid off my cards enough to improve my credit substantially, I can refinance or trade in for another vehicle at a better rate and save even more money. It's all part of a plan and every bit helps. Some days, just having something hit the bank (when my regular paycheck is still a week away) to prevent a $38 NSF is a nice bonus. We've all had a day or two like that, haven't we?



Undermensch said:


> Case in point: I've made 3x what my car was worth when I started.
> 
> There is no equity left to trade. So since I'm still making money I must be setting up a paradox that's going to end the universe right?


You, sir, must stop driving immediately! You're going to open a wormhole and kill us all!


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## Undermensch

Older Chauffeur said:


> Notice the key word "may" in my statement. Not everyone is as disciplined as you are when it comes to deciding what to drive and how much to spend on it. You are making it work but I think, from what I have read on these boards, that you are in the minority.
> Sorry, I don't get the banker analogy. One of my clients is a retired banker and a very astute investor. I drive him around in either a nine year old Toyota or an eleven year old Lexus. He is not cheap, and tips generously, I'm happy to say.


Agreed. Makes sense to me. Must've missed the may.

My point about the banker is he's making more than the cost of the tools of his trade: nice shoes and nice suits. Successful drivers are doing the same. The unsuccessful ones are not.


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## Undermensch

Reversoul said:


> U should probably find a more competent accountant. Either that, or figure out how to make money.
> 
> If you're losing money you're doing something wrong.
> 
> Example: I deliver eats in a college town on the north side of ATL. Most of the dorms are a Mile or less from restaurant. Getting 2 separate orders at the same time and driving a Mile to customers means a quick $8.
> 
> I'm not using much gas so it's a lot of profit and quick turn over. I try to do at least 4 an hour.
> 
> I found a way to work smarter, not harder. Find out what works for you.


I agree about finding a better accountant.

Just because someone works in a field, be it a doctor, accountant, scientist, mechanic, or, gasp, driving, does not make them an expert in their field or even assure us that they are competent in their field.

From the little we've heard so far about this accountant I agree that they probably don't understand accounting very well and are giving the OP poor advice.


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## UTX1

Undermensch said:


> Case in point: I've made 3x what my car was worth when I started. There is no equity left to trade.
> So since I'm still making money I must be setting up a paradox that's going to end the universe right?





Driving and Driven said:


> You, sir, must stop driving immediately! You're going to open a wormhole and kill us all!


This is not true. Undermensch is up in the fine Garden State of NJ.
Everybody knows wormholes are regulated by the state's time travel commission
and they can't cross borders without a federal waiver. Exception of course, is Arkansas.

The wormhole would likely open up somewhere around Ft. Lee and extend
maybe as far down as Atlantic City at best. People on the boardwalk could probably
walk right up to it and jump into another dimension, if they wanted to.
They sometimes do that anyway, even without a wormhole.


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## Bruce Whitten

Contacted the State Comptroller and there is not sales tax in Texas for ridesharing.

They DO tax quite heavily for wormholes, though.


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## DriverX

Undermensch said:


> The trading equity line is not always true or useful.
> 
> In some cases it's like telling a banker who makes $500k/year that he's just trading equity in his $500 pair of shoes.
> 
> Case in point: I've made 3x what my car was worth when I started.
> 
> There is no equity left to trade. So since I'm still making money I must be setting up a paradox that's going to end the universe right?


But do you have enough money in the bank left from those earnings to replace the vehicle if you had to? Not including whatever you may or may not have from previous savings... I think I'd need to drive my car a lot harder and longer for at least 3-4 years in order to make enough savings from uber income to replace my $11,000 vehicle. With all the extra driving my risk increases and I think you'd be lucky to drive hard for 4 years without a major accident or several minor accidents and or equipment failures.

The reality check that drivers over look is risk of loss of property or life. When you sign up you are basically trading your keys for a pile of chips. Funny how the vehicle itself isn't accounted for in the commission. They take 20-25% plus a piece of your car.


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## Undermensch

DriverX said:


> But do you have enough money in the bank left from those earnings to replace the vehicle if you had to? Not including whatever you may or may not have from previous savings... I think I'd need to drive my car a lot harder and longer for at least 3-4 years in order to make enough savings from uber income to replace my $11,000 vehicle. With all the extra driving my risk increases and I think you'd be lucky to drive hard for 4 years without a major accident or several minor accidents and or equipment failures.
> 
> The reality check that drivers over look is risk of loss of property or life. When you sign up you are basically trading your keys for a pile of chips. Funny how the vehicle itself isn't accounted for in the commission. They take 20-25% plus a piece of your car.


I don't need to have enough saved now. For me I would buy another used Prius for $6-8k. Since it would be used to generate future earnings I could count it against future revenues.

Saving money isn't really relevant here. I understand it's a simple mechanism that most of the population uses in discussions of finance, but it really has nothing to do with whether replacing the car is possible or profitable.


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## DriverX

If you don't have the funds or access to them right away after losing your car, you lose your ability to earn and get a loan and its a downward spiral. Your gambling on getting a car loan for a used Prius to drive as an Uber. IN this economy thats a good bet, but things can change. And that doesn't mean you can just ignore the costs of doing business. Your car was basically a membership fee to join the Uber club and have a chance to gamble at their table. THe fiirst year of membership is the price of the whole car and then as you generate equity that membership fee reduces year after year until the vehicle has to be replaced and the process begins again.

So, if you cleared 20K in a year. I large portion of that should be invested back into your biz for current and future operational expenses. Clearly you don't think a safety net is necessary and that just adds to the risk your taking. The accountants are right, even at Jersey rates in the long term its very little retun. But if your pay check to paycheck lifestyle is ok with that then go ahead, grind away.


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## Undermensch

DriverX said:


> If you don't have the funds or access to them right away after losing your car, you lose your ability to earn and get a loan and its a downward spiral. Your gambling on getting a car loan for a used Prius to drive as an Uber. IN this economy thats a good bet, but things can change. And that doesn't mean you can just ignore the costs of doing business. Your car was basically a membership fee to join the Uber club and have a chance to gamble at their table. THe fiirst year of membership is the price of the whole car and then as you generate equity that membership fee reduces year after year until the vehicle has to be replaced and the process begins again.
> 
> So, if you cleared 20K in a year. I large portion of that should be invested back into your biz for current and future operational expenses. Clearly you don't think a safety net is necessary and that just adds to the risk your taking. The accountants are right, even at Jersey rates in the long term its very little retun. But if your pay check to paycheck lifestyle is ok with that then go ahead, grind away.


I'm in no danger of the downward spiral. But your advice is definitely relevant to drivers in general.


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## Ubernic

Undermensch said:


> The trading equity line is not always true or useful.
> 
> In some cases it's like telling a banker who makes $500k/year that he's just trading equity in his $500 pair of shoes.
> 
> Case in point: I've made 3x what my car was worth when I started.
> 
> There is no equity left to trade. So since I'm still making money I must be setting up a paradox that's going to end the universe right?


I love this. If I put 100k miles on my car I will have made 3x it's value in net pay and still own the car. There is no way in any universe that is losing money.


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## Ubernic

DriverX said:


> The accountants are right, even at Jersey rates in the long term its very little retun.


Please give a long term breakdown to show how it is such a little return. Also the OP accountant said he was losing money, even a "little return" is still making money, so no, the accountant isn't right even in your extreme case. If someone can generate anywhere from $30-$40k off a car that costs $11k I don't see any situation where they will lose money. If you start putting numbe values on their time, risk, etc, then you can make this or any other job look not worth it.


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## Older Chauffeur

Ubernic said:


> Please give a long term breakdown to show how it is such a little return. Also the OP accountant said he was losing money, even a "little return" is still making money, so no, the accountant isn't right even in your extreme case. If someone can generate anywhere from $30-$40k off a car that costs $11k I don't see any situation where they will lose money. If you start putting numbe values on their time, risk, etc, then you can make this or any other job look not worth it.





Ubernic said:


> I love this. If I put 100k miles on my car I will have made 3x it's value in net pay and still own the car. There is no way in any universe that is losing money.


I don't know what to make of the info in your two posts.
1. Is the $30-40k generated for 100k paid miles?
2. Is $30-40k also the amount of "net pay" equal to 3x the value of your $11k car?
3. Are there no operating costs for this car coming out of your "net pay?"
( Even conservative estimates for a small sedan are about $.45 per mile. An Uber Select car might be more?)
4. The best cared for car will be worn out at some point. Uber may disqualify it before then, even though you still own 
the car.

From reading the Taxes forum one would conclude that most Uber drivers operate at a loss or very low profit. But if Select is really a moneymaker for Uber's "partners," hang onto your hat, because once Travis catches on he'll lower the rates!


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## Flarpy

Undermensch appears to have lucked out by buying the most amazing car in history. Most $6000 used cars aren't going to give you 200,000 miles of city driving at nearly 40 mpg and never require anything more than tires and oil changes. Yes, if you hit the jackpot and get a car like that, you'll make some dough. Most cars, including Priuses, will have engine, transmission, and/or other problems in that time which will hack into your profits.

Most cars don't drop in value to $6000 until they already have 100,000 on them, so you're hoping to drive from 100,000 to 300,000 on the odometer with no major repairs (and apparently in Undermensch 's case, no repairs of any sort at all). Good luck with that.


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## Undermensch

Flarpy said:


> Undermensch appears to have lucked out by buying the most amazing car in history. Most $6000 used cars aren't going to give you 200,000 miles of city driving at nearly 40 mpg and never require anything more than tires and oil changes. Yes, if you hit the jackpot and get a car like that, you'll make some dough. Most cars, including Priuses, will have engine, transmission, and/or other problems in that time which will hack into your profits.
> 
> Most cars don't drop in value to $6000 until they already have 100,000 on them, so you're hoping to drive from 100,000 to 300,000 on the odometer with no major repairs (and apparently in Undermensch 's case, no repairs of any sort at all). Good luck with that.


I've been lucky so far. I did change the front brake pads a couple weeks ago. I declined the upsell to turning or replacing the rotors.

On a side note I also declined replacing the tires on my Odyssey two weeks back. I declined because I have a tire gauge. The rears had 7/32" tread left while the fronts had 4/32" left. The shop tried to tell me they had 4/32" and 2/32" then tried to claim that you measure usable tread (but until I called him on it he never distinguished usable vs total tread, which means he was being somewhat vague in hopes of making most people think the tires were almost bald). I had brought it back after they failed to rotate the tires before a 5k trip. 7/32" is almost new (most new tires have about 10/32" total tread)!!!

Point: you can spend a lot for maintenance you don't need and most people do exactly that.


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## Flarpy

Yeah one of the girls I date fell for that a couple weeks ago. Tires have treadwear indicators. The treads were nowhere close. I told her this but she decided to believe the tire store salesman instead of me. Oh well, a fool and his (or her) money are soon parted.


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## Bruce Whitten

Yes, working 8 hour days would give enough for a car payment. Look at thr uber lease program. people do that and still make a living.


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## chopstick

Toyota Prius' last forever and generally won't need intense maintenance for a long time. This has been my experience anyway. Definitely a good car for Uberx, but of course it won't be the case for everyone if they have bad luck.


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## hanging in there

chopstick said:


> Toyota Prius' last forever and generally won't need intense maintenance for a long time. This has been my experience anyway. Definitely a good car for Uberx, but of course it won't be the case for everyone if they have bad luck.


A friend of mine has 130k/mi on his Prius. It's relatively new, I think a 2014. His "main system" battery died and he had to replace it with another used one he found for $2300 that was pulled from a low-mileage Prius. His choices after shopping around ranged from the $2300 one from a 7k/mi Prius, to a $700 one from an 80k/mi Prius. A new one would have been much more. So, I guess Prius owners should figure on an extra 2 cents/mi in operating costs or something like that, to allow for the battery expense. At least that was roughly his experience. The main battery in a Prius is definitely a wear item, it doesn't last forever.


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## chopstick

Yeah that battery can be a ****...


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## Undermensch

hanging in there said:


> A friend of mine has 130k/mi on his Prius. It's relatively new, I think a 2014. His "main system" battery died and he had to replace it with another used one he found for $2300 that was pulled from a low-mileage Prius. His choices after shopping around ranged from the $2300 one from a 7k/mi Prius, to a $700 one from an 80k/mi Prius. A new one would have been much more. So, I guess Prius owners should figure on an extra 2 cents/mi in operating costs or something like that, to allow for the battery expense. At least that was roughly his experience. The main battery in a Prius is definitely a wear item, it doesn't last forever.


2 cents / mile would be actual replacement costs. Expected replacement cost would be much lower as the failure rate across all cars at a given mileage is not 100% and, I claim, is actually more like 5% even at 200k miles.

5% of 2 cents / mile isn't worth counting. You get lucky or you don't. Just like a clutch or automatic transmission. (Large cost, low failure rate on many cars)


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## kobyfindley

I can give you the right place where you can get the best accountant.I have been taking the assistance of Accountant in Perth which is very nice in accounting services.


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## Driving and Driven

I love my mileage tracker app. That thing tracks my miles and deductions and saves me a ton of money. There are a bunch of them out there. Mine even produces a report for taxes.


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## Mars Troll Number 4

Reversoul said:


> U should probably find a more competent accountant. Either that, or figure out how to make money.
> 
> If you're losing money you're doing something wrong.
> 
> Example: I deliver eats in a college town on the north side of ATL. Most of the dorms are a Mile or less from restaurant. Getting 2 separate orders at the same time and driving a Mile to customers means a quick $8.
> 
> I'm not using much gas so it's a lot of profit and quick turn over. I try to do at least 4 an hour.
> 
> I found a way to work smarter, not harder. Find out what works for you.


Would you like a pro to explain how that's possible?

Let's say i pick someone up from Orlando and drive them to cocoa beach. It's now the end of my work day and i quite simply want to go home and go to bed...On top of that i don't know cocoa and or it's like 3:00 am or something.

1 mile to get to them
60 miles with passengers X.47 (Paid to me)
121 miles total driven X.54 (IRS deductible expenses)
1 hour and 10 minutes 70X .08 (Paid to me)

$5.60 of time
$28.20 in mileage
$33.80 c (for 2 1/2 hours worth of time)

- .54 X 121= $65.34 in deductible expenses
-$4.00 in tolls going back to Orlando... because i can only charge one way.
Net loss of -$35.54 because I drove 1 mile to pick someone up and I drove them out of town. (Yes the net loss is more than the driver payout)

If you remove the unpaid miles from the equation...
You get -3.14 in net loss... using nothing but the IRS standard rate and deducting your tolls.

What your car really costs is a matter of debate, and i'm not planning on debating it LOL...

But an accountant looking at those numbers see "losing money" as a constant. Once you throw in 20-30% unpaid mileage to the mix your hemorrhaging money on paper.


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## me2

Iv got one thinking going it's the car since we plan on giving it to my daughter when she turns 16 (she has to pay $1000 plus good grades) and knowing how hard teens are on cars so long as it runs and it's safe in 3 years that's all that mater no loss on value because I never intended to get any thing back for it to being with


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## 60000_TaxiFares

I think this topic has been covered about 1000 times. Managed part of a taxi fleet, signed purchase orders on tires by the hundreds, alternators, shocks, anything that couldn't be salvaged, er... recycled from the yard of wrecked cabs (hint hint)

*Take the money the TNC company plops into your account each day/week*. Subtract the miles you drove to make the money x .30/mile. (yes both dead and paid of course.) Divide by all the hours devoted to the endeavor . This is about how much you made $/hr.

*.80/.20* is the average X rate for the drivers in Uber's 200 markets in the U.S. This translates to about $7.00/hr. Well less than minimum wage without workers comp and such. If one manages to get *significant surge money,guarantees* or other incentives and does weekends maybe the X driver can pull off $18 or more with tips for 10 hrs/week.

Unfortunately in the large majority of markets *surge and guarantees are few an far between*, and .80/.20 is dominant.

If one assumes *20c/mile operating costs* (mostly unrealistic) perhaps add $2.00/hr. There, even people *grinding it out for $7.00* can feel better making $9.00/hr. Until it catches up with them, or they're just oblivious their driving asset is worth less than it was. I think a lot of drivers think they are making $2.00/hr or more than they actually are.

If one is deducting .52c /mile IRS allowance for operating costs and *still has considerable taxable income* they are probably making ok to good money.

Breaking even on paper, making mediocre money (minimum wage or less)

Thousands of dollars declared loss, making about $2.00/hr or an actual loss. (paying to drive for Uber) Presumably this kind of activity would not consume much of the tax year for a rational person.

This is not _Calculus V_ and solving non linear differential equations. Nor does one _need a spreadsheet_ for just one (or a few ) vehicles.

I don't think it is possible for *drivers on average* to actually lose money. Even at the lowest rate in the U.S., about .60/.12 in Detroit for a time earlier in the year X drivers probably managed to average $3.00/hr or so ($3.10/hr was the minimum wage when *Ronald Reagan* became President.) I think the time of a dull 6 year old is worth more than that in this country so ....

Stay Safe

CC


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## Mars Troll Number 4

Detroit is no longer the lowest rates, it is currently held by Orlando FL
Detroit
70c per mile
15c per minute


Orlando (Orlando and tampa used to be tied but no longer)

65c per mile
11c per minute

Orlando has the Lowest rates the united states, San Jaun Peurto Rico is actually higher than Orlando

San Juan Peurto Rico
50c per mile
45c per minute



IN fact Orlando is a lower rate than in many countries around the world.



Lima Peru
1.7 (Neuvo Sol) per Kilometer
.25 per minute

50c Per KM
80c per mile
.07c a minute


I'm trying to find somwhere in south America/mexico with Lower UberX rates and I'm really struggling...

Mexico City (converted to USD)
.24 per mile
9c per minute

Finally found one... so basically, you have to go to MEXICO to get a cheaper uber ride than Orlando....


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## 60000_TaxiFares

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> Detroit is no longer the lowest rates, it is currently held by Orlando FL
> Detroit
> 70c per mile
> 15c per minute
> 
> Orlando (Orlando and tampa used to be tied but no longer)
> 
> 65c per mile
> 11c per minute
> 
> Orlando has the Lowest rates the united states, San Jaun Peurto Rico is actually higher than Orlando
> 
> San Juan Peurto Rico
> 50c per mile
> 45c per minute
> 
> IN fact Orlando is a lower rate than in many countries around the world.
> 
> Lima Peru
> 1.7 (Neuvo Sol) per Kilometer
> .25 per minute
> 
> 50c Per KM
> 80c per mile
> .07c a minute
> 
> I'm trying to find somwhere in south America/mexico with Lower UberX rates and I'm really struggling...
> 
> Mexico City (converted to USD)
> .24 per mile
> 9c per minute
> 
> Finally found one... so basically, you have to go to MEXICO to get a cheaper uber ride than Orlando....





> Finally found one... so basically, you have to go to MEXICO to get a cheaper uber ride than Orlando...


Do they have an UberA there? Uber (Armored) Proof of grenades and AK armor piercing rounds?

CC


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## Mars Troll Number 4

60000_TaxiFares said:


> Do they have an UberA there? Uber (Armored) Proof of grenades and AK armor piercing rounds?
> 
> CC


That's the UberX rate, i'm assuming UberBlack would have all that...


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## Karen Stein

The IRS allows a mileage deduction of 0.54/ mile. Uber charges 0.80/mile, of which you see 0.60.

You make 0.06 per mile. 

Since we're not running with the 'meter running' 100% of the time, it's almost impossible for you to avoid showing a 'loss' in the accountants' view.


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## Mars Troll Number 4

Karen Stein said:


> The IRS allows a mileage deduction of 0.54/ mile. Uber charges 0.80/mile, of which you see 0.60.
> 
> You make 0.06 per mile.
> 
> Since we're not running with the 'meter running' 100% of the time, it's almost impossible for you to avoid showing a 'loss' in the accountants' view.


The real question is what do you think the actual cost of operating a vehicle is?

http://exchange.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/1950-YDC-Final.pdf

In this document from a few years ago totals up the cost per mile of operating a vehicle at 15c. per mile,

In Orlando this is the rate that your car would need to break even or profit.

(48c per mile payable, with a 1 to 3 ratio Of paid miles, this brings the costs to equaling the expenses allowing us to keep only the per minute charge as our profits...

However... this all comes crashing to a halt when you look at what YEAR this document was written for.


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## Older Chauffeur

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> The real question is what do you think the actual cost of operating a vehicle is?
> 
> http://exchange.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/1950-YDC-Final.pdf
> 
> In this document from a few years ago totals up the cost per mile of operating a vehicle at 15c. per mile,
> 
> In Orlando this is the rate that your car would need to break even or profit.
> 
> (48c per mile payable, with a 1 to 3 ratio Of paid miles, this brings the costs to equaling the expenses allowing us to keep only the per minute charge as our profits...
> 
> However... this all comes crashing to a halt when you look at what YEAR this document was written for.


Interesting reading! I remember a cross country trip with my parents and 3 siblings in the summer of 1952. Dad probably had this guide in the AAA TripTik packet. I don't know how many years he had as a member, but I've been credited with 56 years continuous membership since my first associate card on his account when I bought my first car in 1961. Thanks for the memories!


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## circle1

Undermensch said:


> The trading equity line is not always true or useful.
> 
> In some cases it's like telling a banker who makes $500k/year that he's just trading equity in his $500 pair of shoes.
> 
> Case in point: I've made 3x what my car was worth when I started.
> 
> There is no equity left to trade. So since I'm still making money I must be setting up a paradox that's going to end the universe right?


I think the idea is to calculate the total amount of money/absolute value expended for the purpose of chasing a profit, then calculate Return On Investment.

- depreciation of main asset (car)
- operating expenses (fuel, tires, maint., insurance, blah-blah-blah)
- time spent preaparing for doing business & paper work, and time spent driving deadhead miles

Then after that calculation we have the joy of deducting all the taxes & SS we pay.

What is left after all that?


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## circle1

DriverX said:


> If you don't have the funds or access to them right away after losing your car, you lose your ability to earn and get a loan and its a downward spiral. Your gambling on getting a car loan for a used Prius to drive as an Uber. IN this economy thats a good bet, but things can change. And that doesn't mean you can just ignore the costs of doing business. Your car was basically a membership fee to join the Uber club and have a chance to gamble at their table. THe fiirst year of membership is the price of the whole car and then as you generate equity that membership fee reduces year after year until the vehicle has to be replaced and the process begins again.
> 
> So, if you cleared 20K in a year. I large portion of that should be invested back into your biz for current and future operational expenses. Clearly you don't think a safety net is necessary and that just adds to the risk your taking. The accountants are right, even at Jersey rates in the long term its very little retun. But if your pay check to paycheck lifestyle is ok with that then go ahead, grind away.


Right.


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## circle1

Karen Stein said:


> The IRS allows a mileage deduction of 0.54/ mile. Uber charges 0.80/mile, of which you see 0.60.
> 
> You make 0.06 per mile.
> 
> Since we're not running with the 'meter running' 100% of the time, it's almost impossible for you to avoid showing a 'loss' in the accountants' view.


Actually, you're allowed to write-off 0.54 cents-per-mile from your profits. So that means you make 0.06 cents + whatever amount you spend on operating your car that's _*under*_ 0.54 cents-per-mile.


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## Older Chauffeur

circle1 said:


> Actually, you're allowed to write-off 0.54 cents-per-mile from your profits. So that means you make 0.06 cents + whatever amount you spend on operating your car that's _*under*_ 0.54 cents-per-mile.


I'm not sure that "make" is the right word for it. You just aren't paying tax on the difference.


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## Mars Troll Number 4

circle1 said:


> Actually, you're allowed to write-off 0.54 cents-per-mile from your profits. So that means you make 0.06 cents + whatever amount you spend on operating your car that's _*under*_ 0.54 cents-per-mile.


NO... on paper.. and taxes you just write off the 54c per mile, anything you have that's left over isn't legally income... you can save it for future expenses that haven't hit you yet, even if we are looking YEARS down the road. you could have a transmission replacement in 1 1/2 to 2 years down the road that today's miles contributed to, even if you haven't spent it yet... you haven't seen the ENTIRE cost of the miles you are driving today.

Anything left over could just be counting towards your car being a fugly POS that no one wants to buy for more than $100 after your done with it... It will probably be worth more if you didn't use it for uber, who are we kidding here.

The standard rate, is set where it is because it is IMPOSSIBLE to specify exactly which maitenance costs apply to which miles driven...

Doing a self owned taxi full time i had 100,000 in expenses over 4 years i owned my last one. The first year had 45,000 in expenses, the next 2 I had less than half that each, and the final year It was in the shop A LOT and it was just too much of a pain to keep running. (it was also getting fugly and smelled weird. Not bad but weird..)

I still just deducted the mileage at the per-mile rate every year and at the end i was within 4 or 5% of my real expenses. (not that i was going to admit that to the IRS.


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## circle1

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> NO... on paper.. and taxes you just write off the 54c per mile, anything you have that's left over isn't legally income... you can save it for future expenses that haven't hit you yet, even if we are looking YEARS down the road. you could have a transmission replacement in 1 1/2 to 2 years down the road that today's miles contributed to, even if you haven't spent it yet... you haven't seen the ENTIRE cost of the miles you are driving today.
> 
> Anything left over could just be counting towards your car being a fugly POS that no one wants to buy for more than $100 after your done with it... It will probably be worth more if you didn't use it for uber, who are we kidding here.
> 
> The standard rate, is set where it is because it is IMPOSSIBLE to specify exactly which maitenance costs apply to which miles driven...
> 
> Doing a self owned taxi full time i had 100,000 in expenses over 4 years i owned my last one. The first year had 45,000 in expenses, the next 2 I had less than half that each, and the final year It was in the shop A LOT and it was just too much of a pain to keep running. (it was also getting fugly and smelled weird. Not bad but weird..)
> 
> I still just deducted the mileage at the per-mile rate every year and at the end i was within 4 or 5% of my real expenses. (not that i was going to admit that to the IRS.


Ok, I see . . . I guess I was thinking of not "income" but more like keeping "powder dry" for future operating expenses. Yes.


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## circle1

Older Chauffeur said:


> I'm not sure that "make" is the right word for it. You just aren't paying tax on the difference.


Ok, then you get to keep the difference between actual expenses and the IRS allotment, for future operating expenses (because your gross is reduced by the 0.54 cents for each mile logged doing business).


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## SunnySonya

I haven't lost money 
I've had bad nights....but overall, I make money
On average, I work Thurs, Fri and Sat nights from 9ish pm until 2ish am
I usually have a weekly payout of 320-400$

Not bad for 15 hours of work.


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## circle1

SunnySonya said:


> I haven't lost money
> I've had bad nights....but overall, I make money
> On average, I work Thurs, Fri and Sat nights from 9ish pm until 2ish am
> I usually have a weekly payout of 320-400$
> 
> Not bad for 15 hours of work.


Kwik napkin math if all expenses and taxation is 30% of $400, then you're averaging $18.66/hr . . . not great, but as you say, "not bad."


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## Blackout 702

Accountant to Uber driver: "You know you're losing money, right?"
Personal trainer to accountant: "You know those sit-ups are hurting your back, right?"
Real estate agent to personal trainer: "You know if you put in a deck and a second fireplace you'd substantially increase the value of your house, right?"
Nutritionist to real estate agent: "You know you're killing yourself with all that processed food, right?"
Dentist to nutritionist: "You know you should be flossing, right?"

Everyone's an expert in something, and no one does everything perfectly. That being said, I kinda have a good grip on the situation with my income. This past weekend I could have sat at home for two days. Instead I drove and made $400. There is no possible way that I spent so much on gas and lost so much on vehicle depreciation that I'm "losing money."

Also during the week I have a thirty minute commute home from work, and if I can get a rider to go with me then every single penny that I make on that trip is gravy, since I already had to pay for the gas and lose whatever I was going to lose on depreciation. Say I make $15 for that ride. That's like getting a $300 per month raise just for driving home.

I get that everyone's situation is different, but come on.


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## Dammit Mazzacane

Bruce Whitten said:


> Yes, working 8 hour days would give enough for a car payment. Look at thr uber lease program. people do that and still make a living.


NO. NO NO NO NO NO.

If you're going to lease, find a lease from a dealership or off of SwapALease -- the monthly cost is usually much lower versus UberXChange.


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## Dammit Mazzacane

https://uberpeople.net/pages/EarningsCalculator/

FWIW, tax year 2015 I had a general net loss from driving rideshare even though it earned me extra cash in hand.

As one change, I no longer "drive around looking" - it's now "park it and wait for a fare."


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## Mars Troll Number 4

Dammit Mazzacane said:


> https://uberpeople.net/pages/EarningsCalculator/
> 
> FWIW, tax year 2015 I had a general net loss from driving rideshare even though it earned me extra cash in hand.
> 
> As one change, I no longer "drive around looking" - it's now "park it and wait for a fare."


When Orlando drivers put their numbers in it comes back with negative numbers...


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## Buddywannaride

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Read your contract. Uber collects 100% of the SRF/Booking fee (which is 100% charged to the rider) and 20%/25%/28% of the Fare. The remainder is the driver earnings.
> 
> And it doesn't matter. No one deposits "percentages" in the bank each week -
> they deposit their earnings.
> 
> You want to argue over semantics?
> Knock yourself out.


That's not true anymore with the upfront fare scam. Ask your riders what they are paying for many rides you're making less than 50% of the fare


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## Michael - Cleveland

Buddywannaride said:


> That's not true anymore with the upfront fare scam. Ask your riders what they are paying for many rides you're making less than 50% of the fare


"You want to argue over semantics?
Knock yourself out."

Our EARNINGS are based on time/mileage/base.
That's it.
Show me a trip on which you have been paid "_less than 50%_" of that amount.


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## Mars Troll Number 4

Michael - Cleveland said:


> "You want to argue over semantics?
> Knock yourself out."
> 
> Our EARNINGS are based on time/mileage/base.
> That's it.
> Show me a trip on which you have been paid "_less than 50%_" of that amount.


The minimum in Orlando is $5.85
The pay to a driver for that is $2.70

2.7/5.85= .461538

It's the booking fee that does it.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> The minimum in Orlando is $5.85
> The pay to a driver for that is $2.70
> 
> 2.7/5.85= .461538
> 
> It's the booking fee that does it.


You don't seem to understand the difference between 'fare' (what the rider pays) and 'earnings' (what we earn).
There could be zero SRF/booking or a $200 SRF/booking fee - 
it wouldn't change your earnings by one penny.

Black car drivers carry their own commercial insurance - so Uber doesn't charge the rider a SRF/booking fee for Black car rides. Uber X/XL/SELECT, etc by law have to be covered by commercial insurance - so Uber provides that coverage and charges the fee for it to the rider.


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## Buddywannaride

It's not just the booking fee! Uber increased fares effectively by charging more to riders. An example from a Pittsburgh news station showed a rider paid $11.20 and the driver got $5.50. And this matters Mike from Cleveland- because drivers are paid by mile and minute and Uber RAISED those rates - but the drivers didn't get any of it! Uber is a scum, greedy, dirtbag company and I tell ALL my riders that. Everyone hears what a ripoff it is. Riders should be paying the advertised rates too - both riders and drivers are getting ripped off. I have many examples where I asked the rider what they paid and was shocked. And I ended up with 50 percent of what they were charged. This is important Mike from Cleveland. Don't downplay this. Fight for the higher pay you deserve. The money is there..


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## Buddywannaride

Karen Stein said:


> The IRS allows a mileage deduction of 0.54/ mile. Uber charges 0.80/mile, of which you see 0.60.
> 
> You make 0.06 per mile.
> 
> Since we're not running with the 'meter running' 100% of the time, it's almost impossible for you to avoid showing a 'loss' in the accountants' view.


That's exactly right. Anyone paying more than a couple hundred in taxes is doing this wrong. A loss is more likely. I keep track of mileage on a separate app. Sometimes I forget to turn it on though. But for the most part I've tracked all those delicious 54 ct per mile deductions.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Buddywannaride said:


> An example from a Pittsburgh news station showed a rider paid $11.20 and the driver got $5.50. And this matters Mike from Cleveland- because drivers are paid by mile and minute and Uber RAISED those rates - but the drivers didn't get any of it!


In that example, Uber did not raise the rates (the only thing we get paid on), they raised the SRF/FEE - which has nothing to do with the driver.

Example: you work for a company and are paid a piecemeal rate of $1/per item you produce. The company decides to charge customers a $25 invoicing fee when they accept an order. Your piecemeal rate does not go up because of that new invoicing fee the company charges the customer - and you do not earn anymore because of it.

You can make the argument that drivers should get a % of the booking fee - but we don't right now. And to use the booking fee to incorrectly show a lower % is just disingenuous.


> Uber is a scum, greedy, dirtbag company


True or not, it doesn't change the facts.


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## Buddywannaride

The booking fee or service fee is a published amount, as are per mile and per minute rates. In other words, it should be crystal clear what the fare overage is. But it's MORE than the service fee - by sometimes $5 or $10 per ride. I agree to drive with Uber, but I never agreed to earn the low rates forever or get scammed on a daily basis


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## Buddywannaride

Buddywannaride said:


> The booking fee or service fee is a published amount, as are per mile and per minute rates. In other words, it should be crystal clear what the fare overage is. But it's MORE than the service fee - by sometimes $5 or $10 per ride. I agree to drive with Uber, but I never agreed to earn the low rates forever or get scammed on a daily basis


https://www.google.com/search?q=ube...j0j4&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8


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## Buddywannaride

I had a ride where the rider said she was charged $31.44. I received $19.95. And I drove slow as hell. The booking fee in my area is $1.65. My pay should have been like $22.34 But it wasn't cause Uber SUCKS. Also what's the big deal about not adding a tipping feature?? They don't add one because it doesn't benefit them. Uber SUCKS


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## Michael - Cleveland

Buddywannaride said:


> https://www.google.com/search?q=ube...j0j4&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8


You keep pointing to RIDER information rather than DRIVER information. Until you understand the difference between the two (as in the example I provided above) then you will never agree - and that's fine. You're entitled to your own opinion.


> I agree to drive with Uber, but I never agreed to earn the low rates forever or get scammed on a daily basis


Me too - and I can stop driving any time I choose - as can you.


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## DCadran

Bruce Whitten said:


> Surges are great when you get them, but don't chase across town for them. You want as little 'empty' driving as possible to keep gas cost down. If you're not on a call, park somewhere. Preferably close to someplace that surges fairly regularly.
> 
> Friday and Saturday are good nights to be busy, even with the extra part time drivers out. Weeknights at the airports can be good, at least here in Dallas. A single long drive, especially with a 2x surge like I had last night, can rack up the dough.
> 
> I made 142.95 last night. Take out about 40% for assorted taxes (might include sales in Dallas, no one has answered me on that one) and I have 85.77 left. That brings me to about 250 for the week so far.
> 
> We won't be rolling deep in the cash, but it's possible to make the bills.
> 
> If we're losing money, show us. Break down the numbers. Demonstrate.


Strategically positioning your self is important especially during times when you know there's low demand. I shuttle back and forth between a massive college campus and a small city so when there is low demand and I need to sit; I park my self right off a highway between the two. This atleast increases the odds of me getting a fare from one of the cities. I live in a very suburban area though so unfortunately the dead mileage racks up. Good thing it's a tax deduction...


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## Michael - Cleveland

DCadran said:


> ...when there is low demand and I need to sit; I park my self right off a highway between the two. This atleast increases the odds of me getting a fare from one of the cities.


Unless you are the only driver in both cities, all that does is increase the odds you won't get a ride from either one.


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## Mars Troll Number 4

Buddywannaride said:


> I had a ride where the rider said she was charged $31.44. I received $19.95. And I drove slow as hell. The booking fee in my area is $1.65. My pay should have been like $22.34 But it wasn't cause Uber SUCKS. Also what's the big deal about not adding a tipping feature?? They don't add one because it doesn't benefit them. Uber SUCKS


Uber doesn't include it because...

It makes the product cheaper to the consumer at no cost/loss to uber, allowing them a competitive edge. They could have a 3 button tip feature in with the rating screen and it would take all of 10 seconds for the customer to toss a tip in, but uber refuses... because they care more about taking over the world and destroying the taxi/limo industry than they do about us.


----------

