# PASSENGERS OF UBER AND LYFT: Mask-Up. Or Pay The $5 Education Fee.



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)




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## Yam Digger (Sep 12, 2016)

What I would do (if I were still driving) is send a text to the pax that they are expected to show up to my car with a face mask on, for our mutual protection, or there won't be any trip; though I might put it a little more nicely than that.


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

Bear does not care about masks, sorry. There are no masks made for bears, so the mask bear wears doesn't really fit anyway. It covers bear's nose, but not the sides of bear's snout, and bear has to use rubber bands to extend the loops around bear's ears. Bear would thus be hypocritical to require pax to wear them.


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## Yam Digger (Sep 12, 2016)

In addition to face-masks, this is also what I would put in my chariot.

'Are you offended by my effort to protect myself Mr./Miss Pax? Another Uber will arrive shortly after I leave you standing here on the sidewalk.'


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## Madisoy (Jun 17, 2020)

Sometimes I’m forced to explain the concept of the mask be4 i
Unlock the door.

Mine protects You
Yours protects Me
By U NOT wearing a mask 😷 you’re telling me to Go **** myself,
that I don’t count, I’m not worthy.

Recently My rating has dropped significantly. LOL


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Madisoy said:


> Sometimes I'm forced to explain the concept of the mask be4 i
> Unlock the door.
> Recently My rating has dropped significantly. LOL


Yes, I have seen my ratings go down on both platforms. But it is what it is. If U/L want to deactivate me for following their own corporate-safety policies, then so be it.


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

I am not in business to educate anyone.

With Covid restrictions ending, it’s absurd to increase mask rules. Especially in low risk areas.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Karen Stein said:


> It's absurd to increase mask rules. Especially in low risk areas.


Uh-huh. Sure. As the restrictions start to end, potentiality for spread increases, not decreases, and low risk areas increase as people move around and start doing things again. The time for mask in enclosed spaces is basically from NOW until HERD IMMUNITY. THis could be at least a year or more out. Yea, you probably won't die, but you might feel bad if you kill somebodies grandma or diabetic immunocompromised nephew by spreading things further around.


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> you might feel bad if you kill somebodies grandma or diabetic immunocompromised nephew by spreading things further around.


Bear would not feel bad, because there are a lot more humans where those came from.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Bear would not feel bad, because there are a lot more humans where those came from.


Well. I guess the world cannot fault bears for their lack of compassion or empathy.
In the Boreal forest, it's every bear for themselves.
Last time I checked, it is every civilized HUMAN citizen's partial responsibilty to protect the vulnerable.
Until COVID-19 is over, I suggest you hibernate.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Bear does not care about masks, sorry. There are no masks made for bears, so the mask bear wears doesn't really fit anyway. It covers bear's nose, but not the sides of bear's snout, and bear has to use rubber bands to extend the loops around bear's ears. Bear would thus be hypocritical to require pax to wear them.


" Oh Bother" !


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Well. I guess the world cannot fault bears for their lack of compassion or empathy.
> In the Boreal forest, it's every bear for themselves.
> Last time I checked, it is every civilized HUMAN citizen's partial responsibilty to protect the vulnerable.
> Until COVID-19 is over, I suggest you hibernate.


Bears hibernate only when food is scarce. There are pings aplenty now, and pings mean food! Bear will keep driving.


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

Yea, sure. 
Just in time for next Fall, and the inevitable arrival of some new super-bug we’re supposed to fear.

Ever notice how there’s a new bug every year? MERS, SARS, H1N1, ad nauseum. Any who think we’re going to kill our economy, sitting at home collecting unfounded government checks is nuts.

Let’s see what happens when you try to enforce mask and social distancing rules on rioters. I sure feel safe, knowing it’s illegal for armed thugs to take over the city center. That Uber “no gun” policy will protect me. Sure it will.

I’ll take my chances with freedom every time.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Karen Stein said:


> I'll take my chances with freedom every time.


It's all fun and games until somone shouts "FIRE!" in a crowded theater.
Then we can think about why there are SOME pragmatic limits on FREEDOM in civlized societies.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Bear does not care about masks, sorry. There are no masks made for bears, so the mask bear wears doesn't really fit anyway. It covers bear's nose, but not the sides of bear's snout, and bear has to use rubber bands to extend the loops around bear's ears. Bear would thus be hypocritical to require pax to wear them.


Wonders if bear knows........ Forget it. I got to cut back on the shrooms I'm talking to a bear


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Uh-huh. Sure. As the restrictions start to end, potentiality for spread increases, not decreases, and low risk areas increase as people move around and start doing things again. The time for mask in enclosed spaces is basically from NOW until HERD IMMUNITY. THis could be at least a year or more out. Yea, you probably won't die, but you might feel bad if you kill somebodies grandma or diabetic immunocompromised nephew by spreading things further around.
> 
> View attachment 475677


Please explain the science of HERD IMMUNITY if we don't allow people to become infected.
If we don't allow the virus to spread in a controlled manner this summer then we are going to be screwed when winter comes and we have the 2nd wave AND the flu to deal with.

We should do what we can to protect the most vulnerable (65 and older or high risk individuals) but the rest of us need to interact and build up our collective immune systems.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Please explain the science of HERD IMMUNITY if we don't allow people to become infected.


In a word: *VACCINE.*

(See also: Polio, Rubella, Mumps, Measles, Tetanus, Percussis, Diptheria - those diseases were not solved by letting it burn through the population (although they did wreak havoc for years), they were pretty much eradicated from the western world by HERD IMMUNITY AS A RESULT OF VACCINATION.)

As an aside. The whole SWEDEN experiment hasn't worked out too well.

https://www.ft.com/content/4f6ad356-9f61-4728-a9aa-3fa1f232035a --

_There is something ghoulish about the way the rest of the world is watching Sweden's experience with the coronavirus pandemic. The country's refusal to go for a hard lockdown has seen it hailed by rightwing populists around the world. _[...] _and the Covid-19 death rate looks shockingly high compared with neighbours that went for a tougher lockdown. Sweden's per capita death rate is roughly 10 times the level of neighbouring Norway. There have even been days, in recent weeks, when the death rate per head has been the highest in the world. _

Ironically, it still didn't stop the Swedish economy from seeing a statistically similar drop as the rest of Europe, nor did it achieve Herd Immunity. By all accounts less than 20% of the Swedish popluation has developed antibodies, and you need >70% for Herd Immunity, so it is somewhat likely that Sweden may have a Vaccine before it reaches the state 'naturally' (with all its collateral damage that ensued with its elderly and vulnerable/immunocompromised deaths.)


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> In a word: *VACCINE.*
> 
> (See also: Polio, Rubella, Mumps, Measles, Tetanus, Percussis, Diptheria - those diseases were not solved by letting it burn through the population (although they did wreak havoc for years), they were pretty much eradicated from the western world by HERD IMMUNITY AS A RESULT OF VACCINATION.)
> 
> ...


A Vaccine is pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

Do we have a vaccine for the common cold? NO.
Do we have a vaccine or the flu? NO
Do we have a vaccine for AIDS? NO

I'm sure we will develop drugs that will help in fighting off the affects of the virus but a vaccine is wishful thinking.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

WEY00L said:


> Do we have a vaccine or the flu? NO


Incorrect.


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## 68350 (May 24, 2017)

waldowainthrop said:


> Incorrect.


 I'm sure he meant to ask "Do we have a _perfect_ vaccine for the flu?"


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Do we have a vaccine for AIDS? NO
> 
> I'm sure we will develop drugs that will help in fighting off the affects of the virus but a vaccine is wishful thinking.


Interesting that you should mention AIDS. Remember when there was no therapeutics for aids. Abstinence was not much an option, so what was the next best thing? A Condom. What is a mask? It's a condom for your face. In fact, here we are 35-40 years later, and we are still wearing condoms to help stop the spread of aids.



68350 said:


> I'm sure he meant to ask "Do we have a _perfect_ vaccine for the flu?"


Proverb: Never let PERFECT be the ENEMY of GOOD.


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## UberwithDan (Dec 2, 2016)

bear in mind, riders already get bombarded by warnings before every ride


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

I suppose when I return to driving I will have a stash of masks to sell to the unmasked masses. $5 sounds about right.

1) Yes, I understand that gives an opportunity for a resentful pax to down-rate me.

2) Yes, I understand that the mask fee may cut into any tip that the ride may have earned.

3) Yes, I realize some people will not have the cash and promise to add the payment as a tip on the app after the ride.

And then not do it. And, see #2 above.

4) Yes, I realize that someone may pay me with an C19 infected $5 bill, and that I may spread the disease to 100 other pax before I am too sick to drive and quit the gig altogether.

You take your chances in life...


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

I don't wear a mask, and I won't wear a mask, either as a driver or a rider. I don't care if my riders are wearing a mask or not, which about 60% are, and so far, about 90% of those, when they see I'm not wearing one, they remove theirs. If you are that concerned, perhaps you might consider staying at home and not going out. Statistically, you are still more likely to get hit by a bus, truck, or trip and break your neck. Last two weekends, I've picked up nurses from hospitals who've removed their masks as soon as they walk out the building, in one case, it was two nurses going home together (lived in opposite sides of the same building), as they walked up, both took their masks off and shoved them in their pockets, neither one said anything to me, tipped $5.00 at the end of the ride.

From a medical standpoint, I'm asthmatic and have other respiratory issues, my normal pulse ox O2 sat level is around 96%, if I put on a mask it rapidly drops to 92% or lower, which means supplemental oxygen is required. Guess what, that means no driving riders around, in fact, here's something that I bet 90% of drivers and 100% of riders aren't aware of, if your driver is using oxygen while driving rideshare, they are breaking the law, under USDOT rules and Canadian rules, it's illegal for a passenger carrying driver to use oxygen while transporting passenger, unless they have a waiver, and they must present that waiver upon request. If they were approved to drive by either Uber or Lyft while using oxygen, the medical examiner broke the law as well.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

Even she is properly masked!


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Frontier Guy said:


> I don't wear a mask, and I won't wear a mask, either as a driver or a rider. I don't care if my riders are wearing a mask or not, which about 60% are, and so far, about 90% of those, when they see I'm not wearing one, they remove theirs. If you are that concerned, perhaps you might consider staying at home and not going out. Statistically, you are still more likely to get hit by a bus, truck, or trip and break your neck. Last two weekends, I've picked up nurses from hospitals who've removed their masks as soon as they walk out the building, in one case, it was two nurses going home together (lived in opposite sides of the same building), as they walked up, both took their masks off and shoved them in their pockets, neither one said anything to me, tipped $5.00 at the end of the ride.
> 
> From a medical standpoint, I'm asthmatic and have other respiratory issues, my normal pulse ox O2 sat level is around 96%, if I put on a mask it rapidly drops to 92% or lower, which means supplemental oxygen is required. Guess what, that means no driving riders around, in fact, here's something that I bet 90% of drivers and 100% of riders aren't aware of, if your driver is using oxygen while driving rideshare, they are breaking the law, under USDOT rules and Canadian rules, it's illegal for a passenger carrying driver to use oxygen while transporting passenger, unless they have a waiver, and they must present that waiver upon request. If they were approved to drive by either Uber or Lyft while using oxygen, the medical examiner broke the law as well.


This is not about YOUR health. You will probably survive any COVID-19 infection, even if it is statistically unlikely you will get it. However, if you are asymptomatic and carrying COVID-19, you are running the risk of spreading to all of your passengers. Likewise any passenger that is asymptomatic without wearing a covering, they are likely to spread it to the driver, and in a very small chance, the next rider.

AGAIN. YOU WILL PROBABLY SURVIVE THIS. Chance are you will barely know you have it (although if you are asthmatic, you might feel like you got a whopper of a flu or a touch of pneumonia.)

However, if you do pass it along to an elderly person, or family member who is immunocompromised with some condition, you may unintentionally jeopardize their life. And for that you would be a completely selfish ass-hole. Don't be a selfish ass-hole.


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## Madisoy (Jun 17, 2020)

Karen Stein said:


> *With Covid restrictions ending, it's absurd to increase mask rules.*


U funny, Must work for funeral parlor or coffin carpenter 
Everytyme restriktions relaxed
Crono cases go UP
Look at floricda & texes, China closed schools yesterday


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

68350 said:


> I'm sure he meant to ask "Do we have a _perfect_ vaccine for the flu?"


No....I meant we DO NOT HAVE ANY vaccine for the flu.
The so called flu shot is a mild form of the current strain of flu.
People that get the flu shot very often still get the flu.
Once we get to the point of HEARD IMMUNITY then the flu virus mutates.
Most years the flu shot is the strain from the prior year.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> This is not about YOUR health. You will probably survive any COVID-19 infection, even if it is statistically unlikely you will get it. However, if you are asymptomatic and carrying COVID-19, you are running the risk of spreading to all of your passengers. Likewise any passenger that is asymptomatic without wearing a covering, they are likely to spread it to the driver, and in a very small chance, the next rider.
> 
> AGAIN. YOU WILL PROBABLY SURVIVE THIS. Chance are you will barely know you have it (although if you are asthmatic, you might feel like you got a whopper of a flu or a touch of pneumonia.)
> 
> However, if you do pass it along to an elderly person, or family member who is immunocompromised with some condition, you may unintentionally jeopardize their life. And for that you would be a completely selfish ass-hole. Don't be a selfish ass-hole.


To comply with your wishes, I have decided to sacrifice my livelihood, and potentially my life, and start to wear a mask. This will of course require seeing my family Dr. to get a prescription for home delivery of oxygen, since while wearing a mask, my O2 Sat. level will drop to levels requiring it. Since I will be using oxygen, I will also be forced to give up my CDL and stop driving the semi, I'll also be forced to stop driving ride share as well, since I will no longer be in compliance with Federal/State Law.

As a result, my family budget, which includes: medical expenses, mortgage, car insurance, health insurance, groceries, utilities, misc. expenses, of approximately $4,500 per month, I will no longer be able to pay, thus giving my wife and I the choice of being homeless or being homeless. Therefore, so as to not be a selfish ass-hole, I will expect you @Kurt Halfyard to immediately begin forwarding me $1,000 per month, minimum, as well, I will expect those who agree with you to contribute as well, to allow us to survive, because after all, you wouldn't want to be an ass-hole either.

As to whether or not I or someone else spreads germs, 75% of those I see wearing masks in restrooms do not wash their hands, what germs are they spreading? As your rider, how can I be certain that you are in full compliance with U/L policy of disinfecting your vehicle after every ride, therefore preventing the spread of germs? Are you providing specific proof that you are in full compliance? From the moment you leave your home, until you return are you 100% wearing a mask as required by U/L, even when a rider is not in the vehicle ? This is in fact a specific requirement in many cities, and recommended by CDC and WHO. How do I know you are in full compliance? If you are wearing gloves to prevent the spread, are you changing gloves every touching every item, so as to not continue the spread of germs? Are you removing/applying masks/gloves in full CDC compliance to prevent spread? IF you cannot answer yes, and provide me with verifiable proof that you are in fact in full compliance, please do not lecture me about being an ass-hole.


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## Crosbyandstarsky (Feb 4, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> View attachment 475630
> 
> 
> Many US States (and Canadian Provinces) are moving towards fully re-opening their economies, and the demand for Uber and Lyft rides has seen a drip drip drip increase in the past few weeks. In some markets onboarding of new drivers was put on hold, and many more drivers have deemed the government assistance packages more lucrative than the profits (and risk) from driving ride hail. Yes gas may be cheap, but car insurance, vehicle sanitization and personal protective equipment (PPE such as masks, gloves or whathaveyou) are an added expense in a time where demand remains way down.
> ...


Driving with a mask is a road hazard. People breathe in their own carbon dioxide and get dizzy. They are not recommended for driving ever!


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## Madisoy (Jun 17, 2020)

Crosbyandstarsky said:


> Driving with a mask is a road hazard. People breathe in their own carbon dioxide and get dizzy. They are not recommended for driving ever!


I reed same ting,
In Onion

"_In order for this to be effective, however, *we're instituting guidelines requiring all residents to convince themselves that they can no longer contract or spread this disease*, and that despite virtually no changes in the situation, we will no longer need to use hand sanitizers or observe social distancing._
https://local.theonion.com/city-enters-phase-4-of-pretending-coronavirus-over-1844037065


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Crosbyandstarsky said:


> Driving with a mask is a road hazard. People breathe in their own carbon dioxide and get dizzy. They are not recommended for driving ever!


As a scientist, and a professional chemist for over 20 years. I think you fail to understand the difference between CO (which makes you dizzy/sleepy and will kill you with its toxicity) and CO2. The latter is only a problem is if it blocking out nearly potential breathing air. *That is certainly not the case with a cloth mask. * You've been fooled by the idiots that like to stir up bad science to just cause confusion. Misinformation troll farms and the Breitbart set.



Frontier Guy said:


> To comply with your wishes, I have decided to sacrifice my livelihood, and potentially my life, and start to wear a mask. This will of course require seeing my family Dr. to get a prescription for home delivery of oxygen, since while wearing a mask, my O2 Sat. level will drop to levels requiring it. Since I will be using oxygen, I will also be forced to give up my CDL and stop driving the semi, I'll also be forced to stop driving ride share as well, since I will no longer be in compliance with Federal/State Law.
> 
> As a result, my family budget, which includes: medical expenses, mortgage, car insurance, health insurance, groceries, utilities, misc. expenses, of approximately $4,500 per month, I will no longer be able to pay, thus giving my wife and I the choice of being homeless or being homeless. Therefore, so as to not be a selfish ass-hole, I will expect you @Kurt Halfyard to immediately begin forwarding me $1,000 per month, minimum, as well, I will expect those who agree with you to contribute as well, to allow us to survive, because after all, you wouldn't want to be an ass-hole either.


I can't fix stupid. And $1000 won't either. Isn't your Loud Orange Dictator already sending $1000 cheques?


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> As a scientist, and a professional chemist for over 20 years. I think you fail to understand the difference between CO (which makes you dizzy/sleepy and will kill you with its toxicity) and CO2. The latter is only a problem is if it blocking out nearly potential breathing air. *That is certainly not the case with a cloth mask. * You've been fooled by the idiots that like to stir up bad science to just cause confusion. Misinformation troll farms and the Breitbart set.


Shills! :roflmao:


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Until COVID-19 is over


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## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

If any customer is so clueless as to the requirements of wearing a mask in a public enclosed space during this crisis then they don't deserve your service. Why is Uber caving on these requirements and giving the passenger an out? They should be required to have a mask, period. It's because Uber is losing revenue and they would rather inconvience and endanger your life than lose a bit of money. Shame on you Uber!


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## DriverMckiver (Jul 4, 2018)

WTF. Why did all these weirdos and covidiots converge on this site? It seems as though they're looking up across the border and sense an extreme surplus of common sense in Canada which might leach down into their cult.
Weirdos with weirdo ideas. People referring to themselves in the third person. Why don't all you nut jobs stay down south of the border where you belong? Don't wear a mask, keep working on that herd immunity, and let Mr. Darwin's "natural selection" take its course.


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## Yam Digger (Sep 12, 2016)

Kurt Halfyard said:


>


Our American friends might wish to fast-forward to the 21:50 time-mark and hear his comments on a certain "hypothetical" nation with a 320+ mil population

Kurt: it seems that with the deliberate, conservative decimation of the American, public-education system, lessons on critical thinking have been replaced with lessons on personal-rights-at-all-costs and socio-political ideology...especially in the red states; and I say that as an intellectual-conservative.


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## Trek Shuffler (Feb 13, 2019)

Lyft reduced the shuffle fee.....bastardos!!


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Trek Shuffler said:


> Lyft reduced the shuffle fee.....bastardos!!


Not in my market yet. Still $5 in Toronto, Canada.


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## Cut (Dec 4, 2019)

Karen Stein said:


> I am not in business to educate anyone.
> 
> With Covid restrictions ending, it's absurd to increase mask rules. Especially in low risk areas.


I don't agree, but it brings up the question as to why it took so long for Uber and even longer for Lyft to make this a policy when the CDC made the recommendation in April.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/organizations/rideshare-drivers-for-hire.html


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> As a scientist, and a professional chemist for over 20 years. I think you fail to understand the difference between CO (which makes you dizzy/sleepy and will kill you with its toxicity) and CO2. The latter is only a problem is if it blocking out nearly potential breathing air. *That is certainly not the case with a cloth mask. * You've been fooled by the idiots that like to stir up bad science to just cause confusion. Misinformation troll farms and the Breitbart set.
> 
> 
> I can't fix stupid. And $1000 won't either. Isn't your Loud Orange Dictator already sending $1000 cheques?


Apparently, your ability to comprehend is lacking, which given your claim of being a scientist I find disturbing, but not surprising. You demanded that I wear a mask, I've stated that I cannot, however, if you are willing to start paying my bills, I will start wearing a mask, and no longer work. Since you won't contribute to paying my bills, I will continue to not wear a mask, as it's contraindicated for my health.

I would further point out, that your refusal to assist in paying my bills, after demanding I comply with your requirement, truly makes you the selfish ass-hole.

As for "Orange Dictator", not exactly sure who you're talking about, perhaps you should explain yourself.


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## Yam Digger (Sep 12, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> You demanded that I wear a mask,


You make it sound like Kurt is personally going to show up on your doorstep any moment now, barge in, and force that mask onto your face come Hell or high-water.


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## ⁵*Dexter (Jun 19, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> View attachment 475630
> 
> 
> Many US States (and Canadian Provinces) are moving towards fully re-opening their economies, and the demand for Uber and Lyft rides has seen a drip drip drip increase in the past few weeks. In some markets onboarding of new drivers was put on hold, and many more drivers have deemed the government assistance packages more lucrative than the profits (and risk) from driving ride hail. Yes gas may be cheap, but car insurance, vehicle sanitization and personal protective equipment (PPE such as masks, gloves or whathaveyou) are an added expense in a time where demand remains way down.
> ...


Why does uber hide the passenger mask request?, I've had lung surgeries and uber requires a photo of me with mask on every time I drive. 90% of people had no clue yesterday about masks for passengers. How do I get UBER to post a Big picture on passenger app showing mandatory masks before you order a ride? I gave away masks yesterday all I can do is cancel anyone with no masks tonight and I have called uber customer service haha 3 times for what it's worth. Any ideas would help as I am disabled and this is only other income 
Thanks


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

⁵*Dexter said:


> Why does uber hide the passenger mask request?, I've had lung surgeries and uber requires a photo of me with mask on every time I drive. 90% of people had no clue yesterday about masks for passengers. How do I get UBER to post a Big picture on passenger app showing mandatory masks before you order a ride? I gave away masks yesterday all I can do is cancel anyone with no masks tonight and I have called uber customer service haha 3 times for what it's worth. Any ideas would help as I am disabled and this is only other income
> Thanks


If the passengers had to go through the photo-taking confirmation 'selfie' there would be NO EXCUSES for not being aware of mask requirements from PAX.



Yam Digger said:


> You make it sound like Kurt is personally going to show up on your doorstep any moment now, barge in, and force that mask onto your face come Hell or high-water.


Paranoia and Perscution complexes are a part of the modern American experience. Some are more justified than others. This one is beyond silly.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Yam Digger said:


> You make it sound like Kurt is personally going to show up on your doorstep any moment now, barge in, and force that mask onto your face come Hell or high-water.


Here's the reality, I'm tired of jackwads trying to force things on people without knowing their situation, name calling because they don't like someone's stance. You want to call me names, attack me without knowing my situation, well ****, then you better step your ass up and start helping me or others like me, you better be giving up 50% of your income to help these people that you so desperately want to follow your "belief". Uber and Lyft are creating these requirements, yet, they are unable to answer the question from drivers and riders, what if for medical reasons we cannot comply, should we just **** off? Less than 1/2 of RS drivers are qualifying for unemployment or assistance, meanwhile, these jackwads are demanding drivers do things that put them at risk, or else be deactivated. Last weekend, I picked up a rider with Asthma, she was using her rescue inhaler as she got in, she thanked me for picking her up, as the previous driver refused to let her in without a mask, when she told him that she medically could not wear one, he told her to walk and drove off. I appreciate the $10.00 tip she left me on a $9 ride

At 3 am Thursday morning, there was an accident involving an Uber driver a block from my office, I got held up in the traffic tie-up (yes, it's 3 am, there's huge amounts of traffic in that area at with UPS and two food service companies in the area). I found out this afternoon the driver passed out from wearing a mask, he had a rider in the vehicle, the rider commented to the cops that a couple times the driver had swerved, before suddenly veering a parked delivery van. The trucks parts place that owned the van were told that the driver is 64 yrs old, has a history of respiratory issues, he told the cops that Uber had threatened him on Tuesday with deactivation if he didn't wear a mask, despite him telling them that he medically couldn't. I hope, the rider and the other company sue Uber for forcing this driver to endanger others like this.

If masks are so damn important, I've picked up at least 10 hospital workers without masks, or who've removed their masks as soon as they get in, at least 3 of them have said they are tired of wearing the damn things.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Yam Digger said:


> In addition to face-masks, this is also what I would put in my chariot.
> 
> 'Are you offended by my effort to protect myself Mr./Miss Pax? Another Uber will arrive shortly after I leave you standing here on the sidewalk.'
> View attachment 475646


Do you REALLY have a Shower Curtain in your car ?

( you know . . . covid gets under your seats to the a.c. intake . . .)


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## Yam Digger (Sep 12, 2016)

tohunt4me said:


> Do you REALLY have a Shower Curtain in your car ?


I haven't rideshared in over a year (car too legally old for my market), but if I was ridesharing, that's what I would do.


tohunt4me said:


> you know . . . covid gets under your seats to the a.c. intake . . .)


The ventilation system in cars moves the air from front to back. So the air would flow under the front seats TO the pax.


----------



## rkozy (Apr 5, 2019)

I love how everybody who was a career Uber/Lyft driver before this pandemic happened has suddenly acquired a PhD in infectious diseases.

The reality is Uber and Lyft just want the money coming in from pax. They make the pax feel comfortable by telling them the driver will be wearing a mask, so no worries there. And, Heaven forbid, Uber/Lyft jeopardizes a fare by insisting the passenger wears a mask as well. These companies don't care, even when driver's lives are clearly on the line.

Yet, there's still enough desperate and unskilled labor in the market to keep Uber and Lyft passengers moving around for pennies on the mile.


----------



## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Frontier Guy said:


> I don't wear a mask, and I won't wear a mask, either as a driver or a rider. I don't care if my riders are wearing a mask or not, which about 60% are, and so far, about 90% of those, when they see I'm not wearing one, they remove theirs. If you are that concerned, perhaps you might consider staying at home and not going out. Statistically, you are still more likely to get hit by a bus, truck, or trip and break your neck. Last two weekends, I've picked up nurses from hospitals who've removed their masks as soon as they walk out the building, in one case, it was two nurses going home together (lived in opposite sides of the same building), as they walked up, both took their masks off and shoved them in their pockets, neither one said anything to me, tipped $5.00 at the end of the ride.
> 
> From a medical standpoint, I'm asthmatic and have other respiratory issues, my normal pulse ox O2 sat level is around 96%, if I put on a mask it rapidly drops to 92% or lower, which means supplemental oxygen is required. Guess what, that means no driving riders around, in fact, here's something that I bet 90% of drivers and 100% of riders aren't aware of, if your driver is using oxygen while driving rideshare, they are breaking the law, under USDOT rules and Canadian rules, it's illegal for a passenger carrying driver to use oxygen while transporting passenger, unless they have a waiver, and they must present that waiver upon request. If they were approved to drive by either Uber or Lyft while using oxygen, the medical examiner broke the law as well.


4136 people were killed in truck crashes in 2018 so I'm going to call bs on your statistics but you do you, sounds good when you hear it on a crappy web site.


----------



## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Disgusted Driver said:


> 4136 people were killed in truck crashes in 2018 so I'm going to call bs on your statistics but you do you, sounds good when you hear it on a crappy web site.


So, your assertion is that 4,136 truck drivers were using oxygen? Are you stupid, or just mildly ******ed?


----------



## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Frontier Guy said:


> So, your assertion is that 4,136 truck drivers were using oxygen? Are you stupid, or just mildly @@@@@@ed?


I'm sorry that you can't comprehend what I'm saying about the very post you wrote. Let me S P E L L it or for you. You claimed a statistical argument. I fact checked past of it to show you it's false. Your argument had nothing to do with truck drivers using oxygen, neither does mine.

Please don't displace the anger you feel over being let down by uber.


----------



## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Disgusted Driver said:


> I'm sorry that you can't comprehend what I'm saying about the very post you wrote. Let me S P E L L it or for you. You claimed a statistical argument. I fact checked past of it to show you it's false. Your argument had nothing to do with truck drivers using oxygen, neither does mine.
> 
> Please don't displace the anger you feel over being let down by uber.


What exactly did you fact check? Please cite specifically what I posted that you fact checked that is wrong.

Uber has never let me down, I had very low expectations from them.


----------



## 62354 (Jun 26, 2016)

Crosbyandstarsky said:


> Driving with a mask is a road hazard. People breathe in their own carbon dioxide and get dizzy. They are not recommended for driving ever!


stop getting your "Broscience" from facebook ffs



rkozy said:


> I love how everybody who was a career Uber/Lyft driver before this pandemic happened has suddenly acquired a PhD in infectious diseases.


COMMENT OF 2020!!!

being a uber driver is an infectious disease in itself lol let alone getting health advice from one!

There is a driver in the toronto forum who says masks are really bad, and to just drink a few cups of vodka daily and dance in the sun for 12.5 minutes and your covid free!!!


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Frontier Guy said:


> What exactly did you fact check? Please cite specifically what I posted that you fact checked that is wrong.
> 
> Uber has never let me down, I had very low expectations from them.





Frontier Guy said:


> Statistically, you are still more likely to get hit by a bus, truck, or trip and break your neck.


----------



## Jihad Me At Hello (Jun 18, 2018)

Crosbyandstarsky said:


> Driving with a mask is a road hazard. People breathe in their own carbon dioxide and get dizzy. They are not recommended for driving ever!


Just pull it down (not even off) and breathe thru your nose


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Jihad Me At Hello said:


> Just pull it down (not even off) and breathe thru your nose


SMART! You've really thought this through!


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Bear does not care about masks, sorry. There are no masks made for bears, so the mask bear wears doesn't really fit anyway. It covers bear's nose, but not the sides of bear's snout, and bear has to use rubber bands to extend the loops around bear's ears. Bear would thus be hypocritical to require pax to wear them.


How do Bears maneuver around the app with claws?


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

Big Lou said:


> How do Bears maneuver around the app with claws?


Bear tongues are much much agile than humans. That, plus a voice-to-text app that bear trained to understand different growls.


----------



## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

WEY00L said:


> Please explain the science of HERD IMMUNITY if we don't allow people to become infected.
> If we don't allow the virus to spread in a controlled manner this summer then we are going to be screwed when winter comes and we have the 2nd wave AND the flu to deal with.
> 
> We should do what we can to protect the most vulnerable (65 and older or high risk individuals) but the rest of us need to interact and build up our collective immune systems.


I wonder if they had that herd immunity mentality during the 1915 Spanish Flue when it killed an estimated 20 million to *50 million* victims, including some 675,000 Americans? It did go away, but at a price.
I realize that a vaccine is a pie in the sky at this moment but helping to reduce the spread can't be a bad thing.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> View attachment 475630
> 
> 
> Many US States (and Canadian Provinces) are moving towards fully re-opening their economies, and the demand for Uber and Lyft rides has seen a drip drip drip increase in the past few weeks. In some markets onboarding of new drivers was put on hold, and many more drivers have deemed the government assistance packages more lucrative than the profits (and risk) from driving ride hail. Yes gas may be cheap, but car insurance, vehicle sanitization and personal protective equipment (PPE such as masks, gloves or whathaveyou) are an added expense in a time where demand remains way down.
> ...














Karen Stein said:


> With Covid restrictions ending, it's absurd to increase mask rules.


The restrictions may be ending but the virus isn't.



Karen Stein said:


> Ever notice how there's a new bug every year? MERS, SARS, H1N1, ad nauseum.


None of those killed over 450,000 people worldwide. Not even if you combine the death totals of all three.



WEY00L said:


> No....I meant we DO NOT HAVE ANY vaccine for the flu.
> The so called flu shot is a mild form of the current strain of flu.
> People that get the flu shot very often still get the flu.
> Once we get to the point of HEARD IMMUNITY then the flu virus mutates.
> Most years the flu shot is the strain from the prior year.





Crosbyandstarsky said:


> Driving with a mask is a road hazard. People breathe in their own carbon dioxide and get dizzy. They are not recommended for driving ever!














Jihad Me At Hello said:


> Just pull it down (not even off) and breathe thru your nose


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

ariel5466 said:


> None of those killed over 450,000 people worldwide. Not even if you combine the death totals of all three.


Blatant lie.
Per the WHO website the flu kills between 290K and 650k.

_Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills *290,000 to 650,000* people per year. The annual death rate depends on the specific strain of the virus that is dominant, how well the vaccine is working to protect against that strain, and how many people got vaccinated, according to Dr. Adalja. _


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Blatant lie.
> Per the WHO website the flu kills between 290K and 650k.
> 
> _Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills *290,000 to 650,000* people per year. The annual death rate depends on the specific strain of the virus that is dominant, how well the vaccine is working to protect against that strain, and how many people got vaccinated, according to Dr. Adalja. _


Yea, but the COVID-19 killed 450,000 while shutting down nearly every major economy on the planet, with the majority of the people in the 1st world staying home, and practicing physical distancing. It would have been far worse than a 'bad flu season' if we let COVID-19 burn through the population like we do the FLU every year.

We brought COVID-19 to the status of a 'FLU YEAR' because of the EXTREME measures many governments took to keep spread minimized.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

WEY00L said:


> Blatant lie.
> Per the WHO website the flu kills between 290K and 650k.
> 
> _Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills *290,000 to 650,000* people per year. The annual death rate depends on the specific strain of the virus that is dominant, how well the vaccine is working to protect against that strain, and how many people got vaccinated, according to Dr. Adalja. _


I was talking about MERS, SARS, and H1N1 (swine flu, not the regular, annual flu) which is what was mentioned in the post I responded to.


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Yea, but the COVID-19 killed 450,000 while shutting down nearly every major economy on the planet, with the majority of the people in the 1st world staying home, and practicing physical distancing. It would have been far worse than a 'bad flu season' if we let COVID-19 burn through the population like we do the FLU every year.
> 
> We brought COVID-19 to the status of a 'FLU YEAR' because of the EXTREME measures many governments took to keep spread minimized.


Everything you said is pure speculation and completely unprovable.
The argument could be made that the shelter in place, social distancing and mask wearing could lead to more deaths.

We now have a population with depleted immune systems and we are more susceptible to getting and dying from the virus.
We can only hope that the recent spike in cases does not result in a corresponding spike in deaths.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Everything you said is pure speculation and completely unprovable.
> The argument could be made that the shelter in place, social distancing and mask wearing could lead to more deaths.
> 
> We now have a population with depleted immune systems and we are more susceptible to getting and dying from the virus.
> We can only hope that the recent spike in cases does not result in a corresponding spike in deaths.


Gravity is unprovable (in the complete scientific way), but here we stand. Lots and lots of observations gives us somewhat of a measurable empirical sense of what gravity is, without understanding it.
This is the case of COVID and HERD IMMUNITY and VACCINES.
You live your comfortable and free life of luxury (relatively, across history humanity has had it a lot worse, even the elite) because of Vaccines eliminating 10 MAJOR killer global diseases.
But you know, keep insisting on 100% proof of things as a way to narrow your mind. Rememeber that PERFECTION is the enemy of GOOD.


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Gravity is unprovable (in the complete scientific way), but here we stand. Lots and lots of observations gives us somewhat of a measurable empirical sense of what gravity is, without understanding it.
> This is the case of COVID and HERD IMMUNITY and VACCINES.
> You live your comfortable and free life of luxury (relatively, across history humanity has had it a lot worse, even the elite) because of Vaccines eliminating 10 MAJOR killer global diseases.
> But you know, keep insisting on 100% proof of things as a way to narrow your mind. Rememeber that PERFECTION is the enemy of GOOD.


I fully agree with your take on gravity and vaccines for diseases.
As you pointed out there is no such thing as 100% proof.

If you are making your assertions would it be too much to ask for proof beyond a reasonable doubt?
As far as I can tell you don't even offer proof to the level of the preponderance of doubt.
I have never asked for 100% proof.


----------



## Uberadd (Dec 31, 2019)

Frontier Guy said:


> Apparently, your ability to comprehend is lacking, which given your claim of being a scientist I find disturbing, but not surprising. You demanded that I wear a mask, I've stated that I cannot, however, if you are willing to start paying my bills, I will start wearing a mask, and no longer work. Since you won't contribute to paying my bills, I will continue to not wear a mask, as it's contraindicated for my health.
> 
> I would further point out, that your refusal to assist in paying my bills, after demanding I comply with your requirement, truly makes you the selfish ass-hole.
> 
> As for "Orange Dictator", not exactly sure who you're talking about, perhaps you should explain yourself.


Probably referring to trump.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Uberadd said:


> Probably referring to trump.


----------



## e. m. control (Jun 13, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Uh-huh. Sure. As the restrictions start to end, potentiality for spread increases, not decreases, and low risk areas increase as people move around and start doing things again. The time for mask in enclosed spaces is basically from NOW until HERD IMMUNITY. THis could be at least a year or more out. Yea, you probably won't die, but you might feel bad if you kill somebodies grandma or diabetic immunocompromised nephew by spreading things further around.
> 
> View attachment 475677


Well maybe grandpa or anyone else w potential life threatening issues should not be in an Uber/Lyft, etc. Duh! You sound so self rituous in the novel you wrote for all of us ignorant folks that are not of the enlightened mentality such as yourself. Trust me my man there are more that can think for themselves and despise these requirements than the loud and boisterous few that seem to have the latest "health experts/media slime" graphs and factoids re this latest flu bug....yes it's a flu bug.

2-4% of those infected have died according to which state you live in.....and that is calculated not by confirmed cases but by confirmed cases and those already dead not given a test but had one of the now 15-20 symptoms. Give me a break man


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

e. m. control said:


> Well maybe grandpa or anyone else w potential life threatening issues should not be in an Uber/Lyft, etc. Duh!


duh indeed! I think you have completely failed at understanding how spread works. Grandpa doesn't have to get in my car, their grandchild could pick it up, carry it asymptomatically for a few days and pass it along. The mask wearing helps minimize spread of asymptotic and pre-symptomatic Covid carriers from passing it along.

This isn't rocket science at this point, the preliminary science on mask wearing is starting to get peer reviewed and disseminated to the public. Perhaps you should change the sources from where you get information, because IF you are a think-for-yourself kind of person, you need good information and data to fuel your thinking.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> View attachment 475630
> 
> 
> Many US States (and Canadian Provinces) are moving towards fully re-opening their economies, and the demand for Uber and Lyft rides has seen a drip drip drip increase in the past few weeks. In some markets onboarding of new drivers was put on hold, and many more drivers have deemed the government assistance packages more lucrative than the profits (and risk) from driving ride hail. Yes gas may be cheap, but car insurance, vehicle sanitization and personal protective equipment (PPE such as masks, gloves or whathaveyou) are an added expense in a time where demand remains way down.
> ...


All set for our ride &#128519;


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The Untied States of America is failing quite miserably at this. My lord, what is wrong with the USA right now. There are consequences of politicizing public health and safety.


----------



## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> The Untied States of America is failing quite miserably at this. My lord, what is wrong with the USA right now.
> 
> View attachment 478356


Once SAH ended people here in the states started acting like Covid was eradicated.

People are ignoring social distancing all together and gathering in large crowds.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Once SAH ended people here in the states, people started acting like Covid was eradicated.
> 
> People are ignoring social distancing all together and gathering in large crowds.


Freedom! Consequences! I would feel bad if I indirectly caused the infection of my parents and they died. This is why there is an indoor mask policy, to help shore up physical distancing and Minimizing contact points.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Freedom! Consequences! I would feel bad if I indirectly caused the infection of my parents and they died. This is why there is an indoor mask policy, to help shore up physical distancing and Minimizing contact points.


Freedom is the power to choose. As with any form of power it can be abused and neglected.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/dudes-who-wont-wear-masks/613375/
_" Americans are figuring out how to live with a deadly new virus now, just as gay men did in the early years of AIDS. Abstinence from sex wasn't sustainable, and condoms became a ticket to greater sexual freedom. Likewise, Americans can't abstain from human interaction forever, and widespread masking may be a ticket to more social and economic freedom. But trying to shame people into wearing condoms didn't work-and it won't work for masks either.

The public-health messaging around masks during the coronavirus pandemic has been muddled and confusing. The federal government recommended against face coverings for the public in March, with some public-health officials positing that they may even cause more harm than good. But a growing body of science, including evidence that people can transmit the virus when they don't have symptoms, indicates that masks are an important tool for mitigating coronavirus transmission, especially in combination with physical distancing, hand hygiene, and other preventive strategies. Indeed, public-health concerns may justify mask mandates in some settings, including indoor spaces where many people gather for extended periods of time.

....

Men-especially those who endorse traditional masculine gender norms-have been less likely than women to engage in protective health behaviors. "_


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Men-especially those who endorse traditional masculine gender norms-have been less likely than women to engage in protective health behaviors.


It's true! My husband refused to wear a mask for the longest time. He now reluctantly does it when it's required.


----------



## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Got it.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Taken from the Toronto SubForum.


----------



## EasyRider1 (Dec 16, 2019)

WEY00L said:


> A Vaccine is pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.
> 
> Do we have a vaccine for the common cold? NO.
> Do we have a vaccine or the flu? NO
> ...


cont'd.......

Do we have a vaccine for SARS? NO
Do we have a vaccine for H1N1? NO

But trust Faucci. He will have one. &#129300;


----------



## LoLo SF (Jul 12, 2019)

https://www.newscentermaine.com/art...aints/97-80794869-0c8b-4aa1-8ec8-e340d4e6fed5


----------



## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

EasyRider1 said:


> Do we have a vaccine for H1N1? NO


Ummm...

https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/public/vaccination_qa_pub.htm
The flu vaccine changes every year, the problem with H1N1 was they guessed wrong and it was a bad strain that wasn't covered by the vaccine available that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_swine_flu_pandemic_vaccine


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Ummm...
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/public/vaccination_qa_pub.htm
> The flu vaccine changes every year, the problem with H1N1 was they guessed wrong and it was a bad strain that wasn't covered by the vaccine available that year.
> ...


The flu shot is not a vaccine.
It is a mild form of the flu injected into people to get the population to herd immunity faster.
Millions of people who get the flu shot still get the flu.....and not everyone has a mild form of that flu.
And yes....most of the time the flu shot of for the prior year's flu.


----------



## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

WEY00L said:


> The flu shot is not a vaccine.
> It is a mild form of the flu injected into people to get the population to herd immunity faster.
> Millions of people who get the flu shot still get the flu.....and not everyone has a mild form of that flu.
> And yes....most of the time the flu shot of for the prior year's flu.


Bear should believe the guy on the internet who says that what the CDC calls a vaccine is not a vaccine? Possibly true, since it's not made of cows, right?


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

WEY00L said:


> The flu shot is not a vaccine.
> It is a mild form of the flu injected into people to get the population to herd immunity faster.


That's how vaccines work.


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Bear should believe the guy on the internet who says that what the CDC calls a vaccine is not a vaccine? Possibly true, since it's not made of cows, right?


The CDC is dumbing down for the masses who don't understand science.
Most everyone thinks a vaccine is going to prevent them from getting covid.
How many would be praying for a vaccine if they knew it was going to give them Covid??????


----------



## calimade (Apr 13, 2017)

This should only be about money. No mask, collect free money. Hell if you're lucky you'll get the repeat the process with the same pax when he/she rebooks


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

calimade said:


> This should only be about money. No mask, collect free money. Hell if you're lucky you'll get the repeat the process with the same pax when he/she rebooks


That's what the DC subforum calls the Stone Cold Multiplier &#128521;


----------



## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ariel5466 said:


> That's what the DC subforum calls the Stone Cold Multiplier &#128521;


There is one individual over there who once got $60 on zero trips from shuffling. They know who they are&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


----------



## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Just a reminder, if you refuse a ride to someone who for valid reasons cannot wear a mask, it may be an ADA violation, good luck with that. Oh, and refusing a rider outside on a hospital/GoGoGrandparent or similar account may also be an ADA violation. 

Listening to a radio program this morning, ADA rep and ADA lawyer on, ADA rep said they currently have more than 2 dozen open investigation against Uber/Lyft drivers for refusing service to riders with valid medical reasons for not being able to wear a mask. In one instance, the rider was outside a hospital entrance, on a hospital RS account, they had just had eye surgery and due to medication and bandages could not wear any type of face covering, hospital administrator was there with the rider, driver refused the ride, admin explained the situation, driver drove off, license plate was noted and a complaint with full medical documentation was filed with Uber, including statement from local Health Dept. that they cannot violate the ADA in refusing the ride.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Not if you live in Canada.


----------



## The super uber (May 23, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> View attachment 475630
> 
> 
> Many US States (and Canadian Provinces) are moving towards fully re-opening their economies, and the demand for Uber and Lyft rides has seen a drip drip drip increase in the past few weeks. In some markets onboarding of new drivers was put on hold, and many more drivers have deemed the government assistance packages more lucrative than the profits (and risk) from driving ride hail. Yes gas may be cheap, but car insurance, vehicle sanitization and personal protective equipment (PPE such as masks, gloves or whathaveyou) are an added expense in a time where demand remains way down.
> ...


With the Education fee of $5 you are tr to ing to educate a numskull...good luck!!


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The super uber said:


> With the Education fee of $5 you are tr to ing to educate a numskull...good luck!!


$5 for each hit (Well, 3.75 on Uber, and $2.50-$6 on LYFT) I'll happily cancel and move to the next ride.


----------



## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

I wear a mask while driving because it's required by U/L. I don't wear it anywhere else, that doesn't also require it. Generally speaking, I'm not concerned about contracting the disease, as I believe I have a good chance of recovering without much difficulty. But, if in the off chance I die, I'm okay with that, too, it's part of life.

This is what I've gathered from hearing the medical experts, the gov't representatives, and the news media; 1. Closing the country down and wearing masks "slows" the spread of the disease, it doesn't stop it. 2. The only way to stop the disease is by vaccine and / or herd immunity, until then, people are going to continue to get sick and / or hospitalized and possibly die. This is a case of rip the band aid off slowly or quickly. 

It's my opinion that people that need to be protected, need to protect themselves and not rely on others to do it for them. 

Everyone has a right to take the precautions they feel necessary, and they don't deserve to be ridiculed or discriminated against.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

roxoz said:


> I wear a mask while driving because it's required by U/L. I don't wear it anywhere else, that doesn't also require it. Generally speaking, I'm not concerned about contracting the disease, as I believe I have a good chance of recovering without much difficulty. But, if in the off chance I die, I'm okay with that, too, it's part of life.
> 
> This is what I've gathered from hearing the medical experts, the gov't representatives, and the news media; 1. Closing the country down and wearing masks "slows" the spread of the disease, it doesn't stop it. 2. The only way to stop the disease is by vaccine and / or herd immunity, until then, people are going to continue to get sick and / or hospitalized and possibly die. This is a case of rip the band aid off slowly or quickly.
> 
> It's my opinion that people that need to be protected, need to protect themselves and not rely on others to do it for them.


I'm not worried about dying either. I am worried about accidentally passing it on to someone's grandmother and killing her through negligence.

Public heath is a more complicated matter than just protecting yourself, the COVID-19 doesn't really work that way. The mask barely proctects you. It more protects everyone around you incase you are an asymptomatic carrier. So if everyone (or the vast majortity) are wearing masks in enclosed places, then everyone is protecting everyone else. Currently in Ontario, Canada, mask have been 100% mandated in indoor spaces. Yes, we are all in a holding pattern until thereputics or vaccines create herd immunity.*

*Ripping the Bandaid off quickly could result >10 Million Deaths. Peeling the bandaid off slowly could result in <1 Million Deaths.



roxoz said:


> Everyone has a right to take the precautions they feel necessary, and they don't deserve to be ridiculed or discriminated against.


When people that are not looking out for the public good in indoor spaces are risking others: They should be named and shamed, as they are being selfish ass-holes.

Look at the difference between CANADA's generally attitude of 'looking out for the public good. (High Social Index.)
Vs. The USA's general attitude of 'I only protect myself.' (Low social Index)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280159100530196481


----------



## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I'm not worried about dying either. I am worried about accidentally passing it on to someone's grandmother and killing her through negligence.
> 
> Public heath is a more complicated matter than just protecting yourself, the COVID-19 doesn't really work that way. The mask barely proctects you. It more protects everyone around you incase you are an asymptomatic carrier. So if everyone (or the vast majortity) are wearing masks in enclosed places, then everyone is protecting everyone else. Currently in Ontario, Canada, mask have been 100% mandated in indoor spaces. Yes, we are all in a holding pattern until thereputics or vaccines create herd immunity.*
> 
> ...


Grandma needs to find a different way of doing things until conditions are safer, as do many others with high risk medical issues. I am personally responsible for ME, not everyone else.

I don't know what ripping the band aid off slowly or quickly would do, and neither do you or anyone else, that's why it's prefaced with "could".


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

roxoz said:


> Grandma needs to find a different way of doing things until conditions are safer, as do many others with high risk medical issues. I am personally responsible for ME, not everyone else.


Here is how I read your response:

A lightning strike lit neighborhood on fire. I'm not going to do my part help out putting it out or minimizing spread, because I'm Responsible for ME. If grandma's house catches on fire, she had better find some fire-proof blankets and a new exit out of the burning house. I'll just be over at the village bar, having a Budweiser.


----------



## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Here is how I read your response:
> 
> A lightning strike lit neighborhood on fire. I'm not going to do my part help out putting it out or minimizing spread, because I'm Responsible for ME. If grandma's house catches on fire, she had better find some fire-proof blankets and a new exit out of the burning house. I'll just be over at the village bar, having a Budweiser.


First, no one is obligated to help grandma extinguish a fire to her home, whether they do or not is up to them. Secondly, comparing a pandemic to a house fire are two very different scenarios. As a nation, we aren't gonna spend trillions of dollars and shut down an economy to save her burning home. Personally, I'd help put out the fire, but I'm not willing to destroy our economy and change my entire way of life, including give up my freedoms. It's a lot easier and makes a lot more sense for the more vulnerable to change and adapt to conditions.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

roxoz said:


> First, no one is obligated to help grandma extinguish a fire to her home, whether they do or not is up to them. Secondly, comparing a pandemic to a house fire are two very different scenarios. As a nation, we aren't gonna spend trillions of dollars and shut down an economy to save her burning home. Personally, I'd help put out the fire, but I'm not willing to destroy our economy and change my entire way of life, including give up my freedoms. It's a lot easier and makes a lot more sense for the more vulnerable to change and adapt to conditions.


History will be the judge of whether the AMERICAN MODEL (Free For All) or the NEW ZEALAND MODEL (Lockdown + Restrictions + Contact Tracing) works better.

Thus far, the USA look pretty far underwater, and New Zealand is just fine. All of Television and Movie Production and the Rest of the NZ economy is up and running and they have 'bubbled for international travel between Australia. Meanwhile the UK, Europe and Canada, clearly the most friendly collections of nations towards the USA have said, "NO AMERICANS ALLOWED IN OUR COUNTRY" (except for shipment of goods, and a few minor exceptions.)


----------



## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> History will be the judge of whether the AMERICAN MODEL (Free For All) or the NEW ZEALAND MODEL (Lockdown + Restrictions + Contact Tracing) works better.
> 
> Thus far, the USA look pretty far underwater, and New Zealand is just fine. All of Television and Movie Production and the Rest of the NZ economy is up and running.


I think China did the same thing as New Zealand?


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

roxoz said:


> I think China did the same thing as New Zealand?


Except that CHINA "TOLD" its population with the force of the STATE. You know, the whole authoritarian thing. They arrested people, and physically boarded up people in their apartment buildings in the more extreme cases.

New Zealand ASKED its population, politely. You know the whole democractic thing. And the well educated, reasonable people of New Zealand 99% complied with a set of resonable actions to prevent spread.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52344299
But go ahead, you are certainly FREE to think that any country that uses common sense is UNAMERICAN and a DICTATOR STATE. It's your right, I guess.


----------



## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> History will be the judge of whether the AMERICAN MODEL (Free For All) or the NEW ZEALAND MODEL (Lockdown + Restrictions + Contact Tracing) works better.
> 
> Thus far, the USA look pretty far underwater, and New Zealand is just fine. All of Television and Movie Production and the Rest of the NZ economy is up and running and they have 'bubbled for international travel between Australia. Meanwhile the UK, Europe and Canada, clearly the most friendly collections of nations towards the USA have said, "NO AMERICANS ALLOWED IN OUR COUNTRY" (except for shipment of goods, and a few minor exceptions.)


And?... Who cares what other countries do or think? America shut down international travel as well... it was done to prevent spread, not because we didn't like them, and vice versa.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

roxoz said:


> And?... Who cares what other countries do or think?


----------



## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


>


New Zealand is more comparable to Hawaii, both are isolated from mainlands, thus the reason for less spread of the virus. If by fail you mean, the American's have put men on the moon, design and build their own planes, cars, trucks and pretty much everything else, I guess you're right.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

roxoz said:


> If by fail you mean, the American's have put men on the moon, design and build their own planes, cars, trucks and pretty much everything else, I guess you're right.


The Twentieth Century: America unequivocably has been one of the greatest nations on Earth.
A True Global Power like Rome in 1st Century, or France & Britain in the 18 and 19th Centuries.
Currently, America is a bit of a trash fire.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> The Twentieth Century: America unequivocably has been one of the greatest nations on Earth.
> A True Global Power like Rome in 1st Century, or France & Britain in the 18 and 19th Centuries.
> Currently, America is a bit of a trash fire.


I'm a proud American and I could not agree with you more.


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

roxoz said:


> I wear a mask while driving because it's required by U/L. I don't wear it anywhere else, that doesn't also require it. Generally speaking, I'm not concerned about contracting the disease, as I believe I have a good chance of recovering without much difficulty. But, if in the off chance I die, I'm okay with that, too, it's part of life.
> 
> This is what I've gathered from hearing the medical experts, the gov't representatives, and the news media; 1. Closing the country down and wearing masks "slows" the spread of the disease, it doesn't stop it. 2. The only way to stop the disease is by vaccine and / or herd immunity, until then, people are going to continue to get sick and / or hospitalized and possibly die. This is a case of rip the band aid off slowly or quickly.
> 
> ...


Well said.

I would make one minor correction:
_2. The only way to stop the disease is by vaccine and / or herd immunity_

The vaccine IS herd immunity.
The choice is allow people to go out and get a mild form of Covid OR wait for a vaccine that gives people who get the shot a mild form of Covid.

All this hand wringing about opening too soon or should we send the kids back to school is silly and ignores the science.
Thus far while the number of cases have spiked the number of deaths have not.
More cases = herd immunity.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Thus far while the number of cases have spiked the number of deaths have not.


There is a 3 week propogation wave between case spikes and deaths.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> There is a 3 week propogation wave between case spikes and deaths.


Right.
That is why I used the words THUS FAR.

The cases began to spike two weeks ago.
The lag has normally been two weeks.

By this time next week it will have been 3 weeks.
If there has been no spike in the number of deaths are you prepared to admit that the spike in cases is a good thing?


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> By this time next week it will have been 3 weeks.
> If there has been no spike in the number of deaths are you prepared to admit that the spike in cases is a good thing?


I am prepared.



ariel5466 said:


> I'm a proud American and I could not agree with you more.


Exactly, I do not enjoy shitting on America and it's government, or its curious failures of late. Culturally, you are our closest friends. We're the neighbour you generally don't worry about putting a fence up, and we share the yard, occasionally you borrow our snow-blower (or Space-Arm), while we borrow your cool military toys (and fast food franchises). We love your TV, movies, and that occasionally you let us take home a major Sports Championship in your Big Leagues.

_As a friend, we would be lax in not telling you that there is egg on your face, and that you are being kind of a dick about denying it. We can all see it._


----------



## Dontmessinmyride (Jan 1, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> This is not about YOUR health. You will probably survive any COVID-19 infection, even if it is statistically unlikely you will get it. However, if you are asymptomatic and carrying COVID-19, you are running the risk of spreading to all of your passengers. Likewise any passenger that is asymptomatic without wearing a covering, they are likely to spread it to the driver, and in a very small chance, the next rider.
> 
> AGAIN. YOU WILL PROBABLY SURVIVE THIS. Chance are you will barely know you have it (although if you are asthmatic, you might feel like you got a whopper of a flu or a touch of pneumonia.)
> 
> However, if you do pass it along to an elderly person, or family member who is immunocompromised with some condition, you may unintentionally jeopardize their life. And for that you would be a completely selfish ass-hole. Don't be a selfish ass-hole.


This guy has several lung issues and you, good doctor, are telling him he will most likely survive? Where did you go to medical school exactly? You could have shortened up that story and get to your point of having the right to call him an ass-hole.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

No doctor here. Just common sense.


----------



## Dontmessinmyride (Jan 1, 2020)

Selective at best.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> By this time next week it will have been 3 weeks.
> If there has been no spike in the number of deaths are you prepared to admit that the spike in cases is a good thing?


Here we go:


















United States COVID: 35,489,634 Cases and 628,116 Deaths - Worldometer


United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




www.worldometers.info


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Here we go:
> 
> View attachment 484156


Can you post a link?
From April to Mid May every day was over 1,00 with some days over 2.000 and you are getting excited over days less than 1,000?
From what i can tell from the graph is the trend is down.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Can you post a link?


I added it to the post above. One of the most used and recognized data aggregators during COVID-19. Worldometers.info. Scroll down past the inidivual state-data, to the graphs. The daily-deaths graph in my post above was cut and pasted from there.









United States COVID: 35,489,634 Cases and 628,116 Deaths - Worldometer


United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




www.worldometers.info


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I added it to the post above. One of the most used and recognized data aggregators during COVID-19. Worldometers.info. Scroll down past the inidivual state-data, to the graphs. The daily-deaths graph in my post above was cut and pasted from there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was wanting to see the 3 day and 7 day moving average.....as suspected.....the trend is down.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> I was wanting to see the 3 day and 7 day moving average.....as suspected.....the trend is down.


See you in three days then!


----------



## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

There's gonna be days with higher and lower death rates. What I wanna see are the full daily charts with confirmed cases, hospitalizations and deaths. I think you'd see an uptick in confirmed cases, due to a much higher rate of testing, and some for the other two, but they wouldn't be proportional to what we saw in the beginning... again due to the fact that more people are getting tested. I also think that as a percentage, the death rate vs. population will be far less than they believed, simply because so many people have already had it, and never been tested or diagnosed. This disease is pretty bad for people with certain conditions, and some that have none, but it's not worth closing down the economy, and taking away peoples' rights and freedoms. We should allow people that need to, to shelter in place, to remain safe. The rest should move about freely and accept the risk.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Keep telling yourself rhar
"
It was the second day in a row that U.S. deaths climbed by more than 900 in a day, the highest levels seen since early June, according to the tally.

"

http://nationalpost.com/news/world/...a-single-country-adding-more-than-60000-cases


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Keep telling yourself rhar
> "
> It was the second day in a row that U.S. deaths climbed by more than 900 in a day, the highest levels seen since early June, according to the tally.
> 
> ...


I guess you see what you want to see.

April and May: 20-40K cases with 2,000 deaths.
Last 3 weeks: 40-60K cases with less than 1,000 deaths.

More cases with fewer deaths.


----------



## EasyRider1 (Dec 16, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Look at the difference between CANADA's generally attitude of 'looking out for the public good. (High Social Index.)
> Vs. The USA's general attitude of 'I only protect myself.' (Low social Index)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280159100530196481


That's bullshit. I live in Vancouver, Canada. Very few social distancing or wearing a mask at this point. Good luck social distancing in the supermarket. Same selfish principles.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

EasyRider1 said:


> That's bullshit. I live in Vancouver, Canada. Very few social distancing or wearing a mask at this point. Good luck social distancing in the supermarket. Same selfish principles.


Sure there are yahoos here in Toronto too. Lots of them. But the vast majority are either staying home or abiding by the rules.


----------



## EasyRider1 (Dec 16, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Sure there are yahoos here in Toronto too. Lots of them. But the vast majority are either staying home or abiding by the rules.


Well that's not happening here and masks aren't mandatory. From what I've been hearing 8 out of 10 passengers are showing up without masks even though Uber and Lyft are requiring it.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

EasyRider1 said:


> Well that's not happening here and masks aren't mandatory. From what I've been hearing 8 out of 10 passengers are showing up without masks even though Uber and Lyft are requiring it.


It was like that in Toronto in Early JUNE. But now, on both platforms, 95% of passengers do have a mask, even if they have to dig it out of their back pocket or their backpack.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

In Canada, the cases of COVID-19 and deaths are declining. Here's the story behind the numbers

http://nationalpost.com/news/in-can...-declining-heres-the-story-behind-the-numbers


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> In Canada, the cases of COVID-19 and deaths are declining. Here's the story behind the numbers
> 
> http://nationalpost.com/news/in-can...-declining-heres-the-story-behind-the-numbers


Excellent article Kurt.

_As new infections tear across the southern and western United States, setting new daily records for deaths that epidemiologists say were utterly predictable and disastrous, _
*Lets look at the numbers and get past the headlines:
New York has had twice as many deaths compared to CAL, FLA, TX combined.
New York has had less than half the cases of the other 3 states combined.*

_A second wave is mathematically inevitable, says University of Ottawa epidemiologist Raywat Deonandan. Researchers have only started to get a grip on just how many of us have been exposed, but the majority are still vulnerable. As long as the virus exists in the environment, "it's going to find purchase and attempt to reassert itself," Deonandan says. "That's the way these things work." _
*This is why we need to spread the Covid to get past it.
As long as the deaths remain flat the spike is cases is a good thing.*

_ It's too soon to know. The true case fatality rate won't be known until the end of the pandemic, Deonandan says. _
*Been saying this since day 1.*

_ In Canada, people over age 60 make up 96 per cent of deaths. While age and underlying health problems have been identified as risk factors, there are other things at play._
*Wow what a truly amazing stat.
It is had for even this skeptic to believe.....96%?????*

_ In March, the World Health Organization pegged the case fatality rate - the fraction of known cases that die - at 3.6 per cent globally. The case fatality rate is the ratio between the number of confirmed deaths from the virus and the number of confirmed cases, not the actual number of cases or infected people that are floating out around there. _
*Been saying these numbers have been bogus since the whole pandemic started.*_

A recent paper in the Canadian Medical Association Journal estimates that, if the reporting rate is less than 50 per cent in Canada, the case fatality rate for COVID-19 is likely to be around 1.6 per cent. The true measure of lethality, he says, is the infection fatality rate - of all the people who get it, whether or not they show symptoms or are even tested, how many will die?  Nature reports that a growing number of studies from different regions is pegging the infection fatality rate at between 0.5 and one per cent, meaning five to 10 people will die for every 1,000 infected. _
*This blows all of the fear monger's numbers into the ash heap of bogus predictions.*

_ Other positive signs: Transmission by fomites (contaminated surfaces and objects) doesn't seem to be as serious as once thought. _
*Just another example of the fear mongers taking wild stabs a bold predictions.
First masks were good then they were bad, now they are good again.
This is why people are ignoring the so-called-experts because they have continually been wrong.*


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Excellent article Kurt.
> 
> _As new infections tear across the southern and western United States, setting new daily records for deaths that epidemiologists say were utterly predictable and disastrous, _
> *Lets look at the numbers and get past the headlines:
> ...


I agree with many of your points here (It's nice to have some common ground in this thread.) 
However, the long term health effects of people who do recover have yet to be studied for scarring and other debilitations after COVID-19 has passed.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

From The Globe and Mail.

To lead with ego is to fail in fighting a pandemic

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-to-lead-with-ego-is-to-fail-in-fighting-a-pandemic/


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> From The Globe and Mail.
> 
> To lead with ego is to fail in fighting a pandemic
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-to-lead-with-ego-is-to-fail-in-fighting-a-pandemic/


The author is a moron.
_Chancellor Angela Merkel said in Brussels last week, "You cannot fight the pandemic with lies and disinformation." _
Follow the science.
Deaths have not significantly increased_._

My guess is today we will see 1,000+ deaths, based on the pattern over the last few weeks.
Depends on how many over 1,000 to determine if we need to be concerned.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

7 Day Rolling Average from Our World of Data. Apparently all those young folks getting infected are spreading it to their parents/grandparents. Things do not look good.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> 7 Day Rolling Average from Our World of Data. Apparently all those young folks getting infected are spreading it to their parents/grandparents. Things do not look good.
> 
> View attachment 487207


How can you say it doesn't look good?
Considering the number of cases the curve looks pretty flat to me.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> How can you say it doesn't look good?
> Considering the number of cases the curve looks pretty flat to me.


800 Deaths a Day on an upward trajectory is not flat. I included Canada (10-30 Deaths a Day) for reference on that curve.
If you are looking at that strange block at about 105 Days to 115 Days on the X-axis, that is due to a 1 day 'data correction spike' that was turned into a mini-block due to the 7-Day rolling average. Otherwise, instead of a dropping curve, the USA is seeing a rising curve. Now take into account the 60-70k cases per day, and you are going to keep seeing this rising.


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> 800 Deaths a Day on an upward trajectory is not flat. I included Canada (10-30 Deaths a Day) for reference on that curve.
> If you are looking at that strange block at about 105 Days to 115 Days on the X-axis, that is due to a 1 day 'data correction spike' that was turned into a mini-block due to the 7-Day rolling average. Otherwise, instead of a dropping curve, the USA is seeing a rising curve. Now take into account the 60-70k cases per day, and you are going to keep seeing this rising.


I guess when your mind is made up the facts/data can be twisted to see what you want.
I had hoped that I finally found someone on these boards willing to admit they were wrong when the facts contradicted their prior opinions.

Cases up 50% to 100%
Deaths down 50% to 75%
Draw an arrow from day 39 to the current day and the trend is obviously down.
But we see what we want to see.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> I guess when your mind is made up the facts/data can be twisted to see what you want.


I would have to say, Ditto. You are failing to see the obvious:

The lag between case increases and death increases is 3 Weeks. That little uptick of several hundred deaths per day is the beginning. That was my point.

Filling up hospitals and preventing other necessary health care from happening due to an over burdened system will result in even more deaths (but these will not be counted as COVID-19 deaths even though, tangentially they are the result of COVID-19 effect on the system. Many countries have shown year over year data that show a statistically significant uptick due to people with other serious conditions not going to the hospital due to Covid-19 fears or inability to get treatment due to Covid-19 capacity issues.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/14/fix-covid-19-dumpster-fire-us/

Pretending the virus is not a threat or trying to will it away is a recipe for disaster. "You have less chance of winning a policy debate against this virus than you do of &#8230; winning a debate against 2,000 angry 2-year-olds," Osterholm said, "People have to understand that. It's like trying to defy gravity. Just because you want to doesn't mean you can."


Enough with the "but the flu" and "it's getting better" and "it's going to go away on its own" talk. There needs to be consistent communications from all levels of government about the risk the virus poses, said Alessandro Vespignani, director of the Network Science Institute at Northeastern University.


"If leaders from this point forward spoke with the same messages, consistently, clearly, without division, they likely have the power to change the views of many who have been less convinced of the right things to do because of conflicting, confusing messages they have been hearing," he said.


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I would have to say, Ditto. You are failing to see the obvious:
> 
> The lag between case increases and death increases is 3 Weeks. That little uptick of several hundred deaths per day is the beginning. That was my point.
> 
> Filling up hospitals and preventing other necessary health care from happening due to an over burdened system will result in even more deaths (but these will not be counted as COVID-19 deaths even though, tangentially they are the result of COVID-19 effect on the system. Many countries have shown year over year data that show a statistically significant uptick due to people with other serious conditions not going to the hospital due to Covid-19 fears or inability to get treatment due to Covid-19 capacity issues.


Not a ditto.
If there were a spike in the number of deaths i would admit I was wrong and change my opinion.
You said the same thing last week.
Do you recall saying "I am prepared"????????
An uptick in deaths is not a spike and yet you refuse to admit your were wrong.
Shame on me for believing you.


----------



## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

I don't trust anything about this so called pandemic, at this point. I don't trust that hospitals aren't marking deaths as COVID related, that shouldn't be and I don't trust the CDC data... too often, the CDC website comingles the terms ILI (Influenza like illness), CLI (COVID like illness), and Pnuemonia, 

The one chart that I'd like to see, but doesn't seem to exist, is one that plots the weekly new positive cases for COVID, the weekly number of hospitalizations, and the weekly death toll. I don't think they want people to see it, because it'd paint a picture that doesn't fit their agenda.

I know of one person, she's in her early 40's, that's been officially diagnosed with COVID, and she's fine... her symptoms were very similar to a cold or flu. You'd think by now, I'd know many more people that have had it.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Not a ditto.
> If there were a spike in the number of deaths i would admit I was wrong and change my opinion.
> You said the same thing last week.
> Do you recall saying "I am prepared"????????
> ...


Huh? It's a 3 week delay between Cases happening and deaths. Keeping in mind that the bulk of new cases are young people, who then have high potential to pass it to their older family members with massive numbers increase in infections (and a lack of contact tracing, etc. etc.), the beginning of the increase in the graph above, is fully inline with that.
I am STILL PREPARED.



roxoz said:


> I don't trust anything about this so called pandemic, at this point. I don't trust that hospitals aren't marking deaths as COVID related, that shouldn't be and I don't trust the CDC data... too often, the CDC website comingles the terms ILI (Influenza like illness), CLI (COVID like illness), and Pnuemonia,
> 
> The one chart that I'd like to see, but doesn't seem to exist, is one that plots the weekly new positive cases for COVID, the weekly number of hospitalizations, and the weekly death toll. I don't think they want people to see it, because it'd paint a picture that doesn't fit their agenda.
> 
> I know of one person, she's in her early 40's, that's been officially diagnosed with COVID, and she's fine... her symptoms were very similar to a cold or flu. You'd think by now, I'd know many more people that have had it.


Utter lack of trust fortells the collapse of society. We are witnessing this in the United States via conspiracy-mongering and social media silos. The rest of the world (at least the Western Democracies outside of the USA) are prepared to practice some social responsiblity to keep their socities functioning. Apparently The US has, more or less, just said, "**** It."


----------



## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Utter lack of trust fortells the collapse of society. We are witnessing this in the United States via conspiracy-mongering and social media silos. The rest of the world (at least the Western Democracies outside of the USA) are prepared to practice some social responsiblity to keep their socities functioning. Apparently The US has, more or less, just said, "@@@@ It."


What I read on social media, is taken with a grain of salt, that's not to say the same for many others. The same is true with MSM, they have their own agenda's and they don't necessarily align with mine. But I've taken the time to research the disease, and try to read up on it. My main source of information was the CDC, but it's incomplete, as I mentioned, I'd like to see a chart with more data so we get a more real picture of what's happening.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

roxoz said:


> What I read on social media, is taken with a grain of salt, that's not to say the same for many others. The same is true with MSM, they have their own agenda's and they don't necessarily align with mine. But I've taken the time to research the disease, and try to read up on it. My main source of information was the CDC, but it's incomplete, as I mentioned, I'd like to see a chart with more data so we get a more real picture of what's happening.


Agreed. More transparency is always better. Particularly if you are concerned about the trust of your citizens.

CHINA/Russia/Brazil/Iran of course have questions in their reported data, as they have authoritarian-styled governments, and highly-politicized national institutions.
WHO has trust issues in the West.
USA moving data control from CDC to Trump Administration is a huge red flag.
At the moment, I generally Trust USA generated COVID-19 data, sources of error and differences in thousands of health organizations across the country.
I also trust the data out of Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Western Europe and Canada. They have generally good public health organizations that are data driven.


----------



## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Agreed. More transparency is always better. Particularly if you are concerned about the trust of your citizens.
> 
> CHINA/Russia/Brazil/Iran of course have questions in their reported data, as they have authoritarian-styled governments, and highly-politicized national institutions.
> WHO has trust issues in the West.
> ...


Agree


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Huh? It's a 3 week delay between Cases happening and deaths. Keeping in mind that the bulk of new cases are young people, who then have high potential to pass it to their older family members with massive numbers increase in infections (and a lack of contact tracing, etc. etc.), the beginning of the increase in the graph above, is fully inline with that.
> I am STILL PREPARED.


You are the only one who is saying 3 weeks.
Everyone else is saying there is a 2 week lag.
The spike in cases started 3 weeks ago.
Either way there is no spike.

I also agree with roxoz the numbers from the CDC are very suspect.
Just too many stories to be able to trust them.
All of the so called fear mongering experts have been wrong repeatedly and the smart people in the US know it.
The fear mongers on this site keep posting the false warnings of the failed experts.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> You are the only one who is saying 3 weeks.
> Everyone else is saying there is a 2 week lag.
> The spike in cases started 3 weeks ago.
> Either way there is no spike.
> ...


The spike (50000+) has only been a week and a half...


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> The spike (50000+) has only been a week and a half...


The spike of 40,000+ started on June 26th TREE WEEKS AGO.
July 1st there were 52,361 cases....OVER TWO WEEKS AGO.


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## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

It's these kinds of shenanigans that makes me skeptical about it all... I think hopsitals have incentives to list as many as they can for some federal benefit.

Texas Removes 3,484 COVID-19 Cases


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

roxoz said:


> It's these kinds of shenanigans that makes me skeptical about it all... I think hopsitals have incentives to list as many as they can for some federal benefit.
> 
> Texas Removes 3,484 COVID-19 Cases


On the other hand, due to bureaucratic incompetence and the nature of the US heath care system, how many people are infected and afraid of hospital bills, or other things (like some (illegal) immigrants afraid of deportation). I'd say whatever 'shenanigans' over reporting for gaming the system, is MORE than offset by the incompetence of local government. Fun fact: The EPOCH TIMES is a far right, highly unreliable news source, widely cited for inaccurate COVID-19 reporting.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-epoch-times/



WEY00L said:


> The spike of 40,000+ started on June 26th TREE WEEKS AGO.
> July 1st there were 52,361 cases....OVER TWO WEEKS AGO.


See You Next Week!

In the mean time:

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/14/texas-hospitals-coronavirus/
https://ktar.com/story/3397046/ariz...om-out-of-state-to-help-hospitals-with-surge/
https://globalnews.ca/video/7182563/covid-19-surge-overwhelms-florida-hospitals


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> On the other hand, due to bureaucratic incompetence and the nature of the US heath care system, how many people are infected and afraid of hospital bills, or other things (like some (illegal) immigrants afraid of deportation). I'd say whatever 'shenanigans' over reporting for gaming the system, is MORE than offset by the incompetence of local government. Fun fact: The EPOCH TIMES is a far right, highly unreliable news source, widely cited for inaccurate COVID-19 reporting.
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-epoch-times/
> 
> ...


Wikipedia....LOL
What next the numbers per the Biden campaign?
The CDC reported 1,001.
I guess you just look for whatever site that best suits your agenda.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Wikipedia....LOL
> What next the numbers per the Biden campaign?
> The CDC reported 1,001.
> I guess you just look for whatever site that best suits your agenda.


I will keep enduring your ad hominem attacks on my credibility and 'agenda' (what agenda? is 'reality' an agenda?) as time keeps passing.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/07/second-coronavirus-death-surge/614122/
_"Despite political leaders trivializing the pandemic, deaths are rising again: The seven-day average for deaths per day has now jumped by more than 200 since July 6, according to data compiled by the COVID Tracking Project at The Atlantic. By our count, states reported 855 deaths today, in line with the recent elevated numbers in mid-July.

The deaths are not happening in unpredictable places. Rather, people are dying at higher rates where there are lots of COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations: in Florida, Arizona, Texas, and California, as well as a host of smaller southern states that all rushed to open up.

The deaths are also not happening in an unpredictable amount of time after the new outbreaks emerged. Simply look at the curves yourself. Cases began to rise on June 16; a week later, hospitalizations began to rise. Two weeks after that-21 days after cases rose-states began to report more deaths. That's the exact number of days that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has estimated from the onset of symptoms to the reporting of a death.

Many people who don't want COVID-19 to be the terrible crisis that it is have clung to the idea that more cases won't mean more deaths. Some Americans have been perplexed by a downward trend of national deaths, even as cases exploded in the Sun Belt region. But given the policy choices that state and federal officials have made, the virus has done exactly what public-health experts expected. When states reopened in late April and May with plenty of infected people within their borders, cases began to grow. COVID-19 is highly transmissible, makes a large subset of people who catch it seriously ill, and kills many more people than the flu or any other infectious disease circulating in the country.

The likelihood that more cases of COVID-19 would mean that more people would die from the disease has always been very high. Even at the low point for deaths in the U.S., roughly 500 people died each day, on average. Now, with the national death numbers rising once again, there's simply no argument that America can sustain coronavirus outbreaks while somehow escaping fatalities. America's deadly summer coronavirus surge is undeniable. And it was predictable this whole time by looking honestly at the data.

It is true that the proportion of infections in younger people increased in June and July compared with March and April. And young people have a much lower risk of dying than people in their 60s and older. But, at least in Florida, where the best age data are available, early evidence suggests that the virus is already spreading to older people. Additionally, analysis of CDC data by The New York Times has found that younger Black and Latino people have a much higher risk of dying from COVID-19 than white people the same age. According to the racial data compiled by the COVID Tracking Project in concert with the Boston University Center for Antiracist Research, Latinos in Arizona, California, Florida, and Texas are 1.3 to 1.6 times more likely to be infected than their proportion of the population would suggest. It is telling that despite outbreaks all over Texas in recent weeks, the border region has been leading the state in deaths per capita.

For months, most public-health officials have argued that the infection-fatality rate-the number of people who die from all infections, detected and undetected, symptomatic and asymptomatic-was somewhere between 0.5 and 1 percent. The CDC's latest estimates in its planning scenarios range from 0.5 to 0.8 percent. Take that lower number and imagine that roughly 40 percent of the country becomes infected. That's 800,000 lives lost._
_
The point in laying out these scenarios is not that we'll reach 300,000 or 800,000 American COVID-19 deaths. That still seems unlikely. But anyone who thinks we can just ride out the storm has perhaps not engaged with the reality of the problem. As the former CDC director Tom Frieden has said, "COVID is not going to stop on its own. The virus will continue to spread until we stop it_.""


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## roxoz (Jul 2, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> On the other hand, due to bureaucratic incompetence and the nature of the US heath care system, how many people are infected and afraid of hospital bills, or other things (like some (illegal) immigrants afraid of deportation). I'd say whatever 'shenanigans' over reporting for gaming the system, is MORE than offset by the incompetence of local government. Fun fact: The EPOCH TIMES is a far right, highly unreliable news source, widely cited for inaccurate COVID-19 reporting.
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-epoch-times/


Texas health officials remove over 3,000 'probable' coronavirus cases from overall count

The story about Texas having to remove COVID19 cases, is all over the internet, so Epoch Times probably has it right... this time. A lot of hospitals and clinics across the country suspended elective and non essential services, which naturally impacted their income. It wouldn't surprise me to find out later on, that patients who tested positive for COVID19, died, but it wasn't the lead cause of death.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I will keep enduring your ad hominem attacks on my credibility and 'agenda' (what agenda? is 'reality' an agenda?) as time keeps passing.


Kurt:
It was not my intention to attack you or question your credibility.
I do appreciate that we have had a passionate discussion without it devolving into name calling.
My sincere apologies if you took my comments as an attack.

That being said I felt I was only pointing out how you only look for numbers that justify your opinion and ignore numbers that contradict it.
The articles you just posted are full of skewed numbers.
Let me offer a counter point:
In April and May the average number of cases was 30,000 (Just an estimation by looking at the case graph)
During that same time there were roughly 2,000 deaths per day with some days as high as 2,500 ( again just a rough estimate)
If you do the math that is 1 death per every 15 cases.

Three weeks ago we were averaging 40,000 cases
Two weeks ago we were averaging 50,000 cases
One week ago we were averaging 60,000 cases.

If people were dying at the same rates as in April and May we would expect:
Three weeks ago = 2,666 deaths
Two weeks ago = 3,333 deaths
One week ago 4,000 deaths
Over the last 5 weeks there has been only ONE day were deaths exceeded 1,000 (July 15 = 1,002)

And yes, I realize we still need to wait for the lag, but the facts are the death rates are not increasing.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Florida hits new coronavirus death mark with 156 in one day.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/wor...coronavirus-death-mark-with-156-in-one-day-2/
" Florida reached another ominous mark Thursday with a record 156 deaths from the coronavirus reported in a single day as the state continues to experience a swift rise in cases. Officials in the hard-hit Miami area, meanwhile, were weighing another blanket lockdown. The state Department of Health reported 13,965 new coronavirus cases in Florida, bringing the total throughout the pandemic in Florida to nearly 316,000. In Miami-Dade County, the state's most populous and the current epicentre of the outbreak, there were more than 3,100 new coronavirus cases reported. The 156 deaths statewide eclipsed the previous record set Tuesday of 132 reported deaths. On a seven-day average, Florida was at about 96 deaths per day on Thursday - well above previous months. Hospitalizations also have been surging, filling up ICU units at several hospitals. Statewide, the number of patients being treated in a hospital for the coronavirus was at 8,809 Thursday morning, up from 8,276 at the same time the day before."


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Florida hits new coronavirus death mark with 156 in one day.
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/wor...coronavirus-death-mark-with-156-in-one-day-2/
> " Florida reached another ominous mark Thursday with a record 156 deaths from the coronavirus reported in a single day as the state continues to experience a swift rise in cases. Officials in the hard-hit Miami area, meanwhile, were weighing another blanket lockdown. The state Department of Health reported 13,965 new coronavirus cases in Florida, bringing the total throughout the pandemic in Florida to nearly 316,000. In Miami-Dade County, the state's most populous and the current epicentre of the outbreak, there were more than 3,100 new coronavirus cases reported. The 156 deaths statewide eclipsed the previous record set Tuesday of 132 reported deaths. On a seven-day average, Florida was at about 96 deaths per day on Thursday - well above previous months. Hospitalizations also have been surging, filling up ICU units at several hospitals. Statewide, the number of patients being treated in a hospital for the coronavirus was at 8,809 Thursday morning, up from 8,276 at the same time the day before."


Another misleading headline.
7 other states have had more deaths.
Deaths per 1 million population:
Florida # 25 on the list.


USADeaths/State1M popUSA Total433​New Jersey1777​New York1674​Connecticut1233​Massachusetts1223​Rhode Island935​District Of Columbia819​Louisiana763​Michigan637​Illinois591​Maryland559​Pennsylvania553​Delaware537​Mississippi455​Indiana419​Arizona379​Colorado304​Georgia299​New Hampshire293​Minnesota280​Ohio272​New Mexico272​Alabama262​Iowa252​Virginia237​*Florida*232​South Carolina224​Nevada210​California195​Washington191​Missouri190​North Carolina159​Nebraska156​Kentucky150​Wisconsin145​Texas139​South Dakota133​Tennessee123​North Dakota121​Arkansas118​Oklahoma114​Kansas105​Vermont90​Maine87​Utah76​Idaho67​Oregon62​West Virginia56​Wyoming43​Montana35​Alaska25​Hawaii17​Guam


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Another misleading headline.
> 7 other states have had more deaths.
> Deaths per 1 million population:
> Florida # 25 on the list.
> ...


I believe the article is discussing current numbers this week, not cumulative.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I believe the article is discussing current numbers this week, not cumulative.


And that is my point.
The article is cherry picking numbers to promote their fear mongering narrative.
For every death in Florida there are 6 deaths in New York.
Most of the deaths in New York were murdered by Cuomo when he sent Infected patients back to their nursing homes.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> And that is my point.
> The article is cherry picking numbers to promote their fear mongering narrative.
> For every death in Florida there are 6 deaths in New York.
> Most of the deaths in New York were murdered by Cuomo when he sent Infected patients back to their nursing homes.


Well, the NY/Florida dichotomy will be somewhat offset in that NY rapidly became overwhelmed, and there was very little 'treatment' experience of COVID-19 in March. Hospitals share information and get better at deciding treatment. The Southern Belt is just coming into the 'OVERWHELMED' territory. Then the numbers may spike somewhat.

What I'm saying is that if you consider these articles cherry picking, and you are holding everything against the standard of the 'worst moment' in the USA side of the outbreak, doesn't that make you cherry-picking?

As always, much of an argument is about framing, sometimes even moreso than the key points of the argument itself...


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Well, the NY/Florida dichotomy will be somewhat offset in that NY rapidly became overwhelmed, and there was very little 'treatment' experience of COVID-19 in March. Hospitals share information and get better at deciding treatment. The Southern Belt is just coming into the 'OVERWHELMED' territory. Then the numbers may spike somewhat.
> 
> What I'm saying is that if you consider these articles cherry picking, and you are holding everything against the standard of the 'worst moment' in the USA side of the outbreak, doesn't that make you cherry-picking?
> 
> As always, much of an argument is about framing, sometimes even moreso than the key points of the argument itself...


Right.
If I was claiming there was nothing to worry about and only pointed to NY as a comparison it would be cherry picking.
As the saying goes:
Figures don't lie, but liars know how to figure.

For the reason you just made there will be no spike.
We know more about how to treat it and know not to murder people by sending covid patients into nursing homes.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> See You Next Week!


So have we agreed on a number as to what is defined as a spike vs what is a small uptick?
After the weekend lul tomorrow is uptick Tuesday.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> So have we agreed on a number as to what is defined as a spike vs what is a small uptick?
> After the weekend lul tomorrow is uptick Tuesday.


I fully agree that the 'full extent' of the potential death in the USA is not as bad as it could have been. 
I fully agree that some measures the governments at the State and Local level have prevented a lot of the Retirement Home chaos that plagued NYC in March-April.
I am of the believe from existing official data (and the wider amount that is not captured due to lack or unwillness to test) that the death rate (CFR) of COVID-19 is below 1%.
Its contagious as heck though. And not all those people that live recover 100%. (Far worse than Influenza in this matter.)

Currently, the USA in NO WAY WHATSOEVER has this under control.

I do not believe that letting it 'burn through the population' to achieve herd immunity will help your economy in any fashion.
Nor will it help the current politics-first-science-last PRESIDENT get re-elected.
Number of people Dead in the USA due to COVID-19 should pass the American casuality count of World War II before people go to the polls.
There is no influenza-year in the United States that has ever accomplished this feat. Not even close.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Every Other *Wealthy* Western Democracy is trending down or in daily deaths or is below 10 deaths per day.
In the mean time. The USA hever really got below 300 deaths per day, and it certainly appears to be trending up.
I concede, not as much as @WEY00L has calculated based on peak NYC-epicentre data, when Long Term Care homes were being poisoned by lack of a plan or adequate transmission information. 
The daily death curve definitely rising. >1000 deaths per day for 2 days in a row.
Bottom line is, every other Liberal Democracy has flattened their curve and brought death from COVID-19 to a bare minimum. Not the USA.










The daily death curve definitely rising. >1000 deaths per day for 2 days in a row.
Bottom line is, every other Liberal Democracy has flattened their curve and brought death from COVID-19 to a bare minimum. Not the USA.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt,
You do this every week.
Look at the graph put out by the CDC.
For the last 7 weeks there has been a slight uptick on the numbers on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. and Friday.
The uptick is followed by lower numbers on Saturday, Sunday, and Monday.
You only comment on the Tuesday - Friday numbers and never have anything to say on the weekend.

I do not trust the numbers put out by the CDC.
If you look at the numbers from the latest flu season 2019/20 the best the CDC can do is a range of numbers.
Flu cases: 39,000,000 – 56,000,000
Hospitalizations: 410,000 – 740,000
Flu deaths : 24,000 – 62,000
And yet somehow we are supposed to believe they know the exact number of cases and deaths for Covid?
You mentioned that there could be deaths from Covid that are not being counted.....my counter is there are between 2 and 3 Covid deaths for every under counted death that were caused by other factors but the hospital gets more money if it is covid so they report false numbers.

Unfortunately the bogus numbers from the CDC is all we have so, we are stuck with arguing about false numbers.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Kurt,
> You do this every week.
> Look at the graph put out by the CDC.
> For the last 7 weeks there has been a slight uptick on the numbers on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. and Friday.
> ...


This is because of the nature of weekend reporting in most countries. All of them have that 'wave form' style graph. It's only really worth nothing the rise of the peaks and the rise of the valleys.










You can be paranoid and 'going with my gut' all you want, if you don't like the data, say you don't believe it. Then we are not having a conversation, we are merely exploring your paranoia. That's not an avenue I wish to go up. I have not reason to doubt the CDC (and other Western Democracy) body of data. This is not a 'flu season range' which is kind of brushed by in terms of data gathering, this is laser focus by health bodies across various nations. Yes there will always be reporting error in the data, but given the size of the data pools I am happy to take these numbers serious.

If you want to crawl down your conspiracy-theory hole and not deal with the current reality, that is on you, sir.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> This is because of the nature of weekend reporting in most countries. All of them have that 'wave form' style graph. It's only really worth nothing the rise of the peaks and the rise of the valleys.
> 
> View attachment 490328
> 
> ...


I you want to drink up all the kool-ade and believe everything the CDC says that is up to you.
The data is flawed and that is a fact not a conspiracy.
The only debate is the extent to which the data is flawed.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> I you want to drink up all the kool-ade and believe everything the CDC says that is up to you.
> The data is flawed and that is a fact not a conspiracy.
> The only debate is the extent to which the data is flawed.


In the absence of 'perfect' data, we use the best data we've got. We don't resort to making up whatever narrative you decide based on 'gut.'
Yes, I wish the data was better, and more accurate. But there is not reason to believe that it is worth throwing it out due to some noise.
There is always noise in data, you can merely acknowledge it is there, operate within the limits of that noise, and go forward.
NOT just make up whatever makes you feel good, or brave, or whatever, and say all measurements, institutions and experts are BAD. That is what the Covid-Hoaxers and general right-leaning antimask 'folks' have been doing.
I'm not accusing you of doing this, but I do see you leaning hard on some of those precepts to nullify what I have been trying to communicate in these pages.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

>1000 deaths per day for the fifth straight day seems a pretty solid indicator that more cases is proportional to rising deaths (3-4 weeks later.). Congrats America, you get an F on your pandemic report card.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/healt...rd-experts-give-canada-a-b-u-s-an-f-1.5035917
https://globalnews.ca/video/7218255...-covid-19-related-deaths-for-4th-straight-day


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/07/inside-the-us-pandemic-incompetence-it-starts-at-the-top/
_"The United States, already in possession of the largest number of infections in the COVID-19 pandemic, seems strangely committed to making things worse. As new infections have shot up to record levels, a major retailer made basic protective steps optional before reversing its decision, while the governor of Georgia is moving to block any local authorities from acting to protect their citizens. This is despite the fact that the head of the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) has said: "If we could get everybody to wear a mask right now, I really think in the next four, six, eight weeks, we could bring this epidemic under control."

And it's not just masks. Health experts are nearly unanimous in indicating that reopening schools should only take place in the context of having a low infection rate in the community, classrooms redesigned to allow greater social distancing, and distance learning used where needed. But the Trump administration is threatening to withhold funding from any schools that do not fully reopen for in-person education. Meanwhile, the administration is attempting to downplay the value of one thing-more testing-that could help us understand the virus's progression through our population.

What in the world is going on?

This weekend delivered a few explanations for how the US went so badly wrong. One was in the form of a detailed account of how key decisions were made as the US approached its initial peak in infections. The second is an interview with President Trump himself, who comes across as living in a world of misinformation and conspiracy theories.

*Problems at the top*

Over the weekend, President Trump sat down for an extended interview with Fox News' Chris Wallace. The interview touched on the pandemic multiple times and provides a window into Trump's ideas about what's going on. And it is revelatory, in that it revealed that he's got a lot of ideas but very few of them have a basis in reality-and the interview brings out several of the reasons for the problems.

One of the most striking cases came when Wallace challenged Trump about the United States being one of the worst countries in terms of its mortality rate due to COVID-19. Trump responded by getting his press secretary, Kayleigh McEnany, to hand Wallace a graph that supposedly contests this fact. The graph, however, only showed data from a handful of countries, with the US appearing better than some but worse than others. This suggests that part of the problem is that Trump isn't getting the full picture from his advisers and isn't engaged enough in the issue to realize the picture he's gotten is incomplete.

Trump's tendency to make things up in order to make himself look good also kicked in. Within the span of a few sentences, he went from "I think we have one of the lowest mortality rates in the world" to claiming the graph showed we had the "Number one low mortality fatality rates," even though the graph showed a couple of countries with better rates.

Trump's loose grasp of the issues also came up when Wallace asked about the huge surge in SARS-CoV-2 infections revealed by testing. Here, Trump repeated a theme he's returned to since cases started growing: it's all because of our testing capacity. "If we didn't test, you wouldn't be able to show that chart," he told Wallace at one point. "If we tested half as much, those numbers would be down."

But, as Ars' Tim Lee described, there's a way to track how much increased testing is influencing the total number of cases detected: the fraction of tests that return a positive result. And that measure shows that the growth in new cases in the US is being driven by the spread of the virus, rather than expanded testing. Trump should know this; the fact that he repeatedly says he doesn't indicates a failure of briefers to get him up to speed or a failure of his ability to process information.

*Conspiratorial thinking and policy*

But something else seems to be going on, as Wallace followed up with a comparison to the relatively small number of cases in Europe. "Is it possible that they don't have the virus as badly as we do?" Wallace asked. Trump dismisses this with a conspiracy theory: "It's possible that they don't test, that's what's possible."

This sort of conspiracy theorizing is also present in Trump's response to public health policy within the United States. California has re-instituted restrictions on its citizens in response to the resurgence in cases it's now experiencing. But, since Trump apparently doesn't believe there is a resurgence, he suspects it's a plot against him. "There's no reason for California to do... to be doing what they're doing except for November 3rd [election day]," he told Wallace. He later went on to say: "the Democrats want to keep it closed as long as possible because they think that's good for election. But I think the economy is doing very well."

And, having constructed an alternate reality in which the number of infections isn't growing rapidly, Trump is setting policy accordingly. That includes pushing schools to reopen fully for in-person classes this fall or face the threat of a cutoff of federal funding. (To his credit, Wallace points out that this will hit the poorest communities the hardest.)

*Huh?*

There are, however, some nonsensical policy decisions that don't fit neatly into any category. Wallace also brought up the CDC director's argument that recent evidence suggests that population-wide mask use would allow us to get the pandemic under control in a matter of a couple of months or less. But Trump indicates he's not willing to accept expert opinion, much less base policy on it, saying, "I want people to have a certain freedom, and I don't believe in that. No, and I don't agree with the statement that if everybody wears a mask everything disappears."

The general lack of a grip on reality also seems to be driving other policy decisions that didn't come up in the interview. On Saturday, The Washington Post revealed the administration is trying to keep Congress from inserting pandemic-focused funding into its next relief bill. Some of the funding at issue would be directed to the CDC-the ones whose advice Trump is dismissing. The rest would be for testing and contact tracing, which Trump blames for making the pandemic look worse than he thinks it is. So it's clear that Trump's beliefs, however he came about them, are influencing policy.

*Not much help*

Also on Saturday, The New York Times published a deeply researched story that describes how the government shifted into a default stance of ignoring the pandemic back when cases were approaching their first peak. The report indicates that, in addition to Trump having a view of matters not based on reality, his administration's response was largely driven by a small group of senior leadership in the White House, all but one of whom had no medical expertise (naturally, the group included Jared Kushner and Hope Hicks).

Perhaps because of the commitment of some members to a small federal government, the group focused on shifting responsibilities to the states. This, despite some problems with this approach that became obvious early-such as the indications that competition between states for resources like testing kits and protective gear ended up raising prices for them. There are also some issues, like contact tracing, that can't be handled by individual states, given the ease with which US citizens cross state lines.

The other thing that became clear is that, with only a single public health expert consistently involved, the group didn't have a good perspective on what was happening with the pandemic. That expert, Dr. Deborah Birx, told the group that, by mid-April, modeling was showing that the United States was nearing a peak. This turned out to be true. But the peak and decline were largely driven by New York and nearby states, which instituted strict social-distancing and isolation rules. According to the Times, the models Birx relied on assumed that all states would take a New York-like approach-a caveat that others in the administration didn't fully register.

*Ideology*

In fact, the belief that no further restrictions were needed in order for the US to see cases drop to manageable levels fit in with President Trump's belief that it was critical for the economy to restart as quickly as possible. As a result, he started pushing states to reopen before the crest in cases was even reached. Nobody in the administration appears to have re-evaluated the approach despite the fact that, unlike European countries that had seen social-distancing rules followed, the US saw cases remain at a relatively high plateau. That turned out to be the product of the virus being established in the wider US population, setting the stage for its current growth.

A public health disaster of these proportions doesn't happen due to a single personality. Obviously, many officials in the Trump administration have failed the US by allowing their own ideology to drive decisions that went against well-established public health practices. But they've also failed in terms of allowing the president to not only maintain false beliefs but to set policies based on them.

*As for Trump, Wallace was actually being understated when he suggested that "people say that you talk about the world as you'd like to see it rather than follow the science." The interview makes clear that Trump is likely to be incapable of recognizing any science that runs counter to the world as he wishes it to be, much less follow it.*"_

-----------------------

_"The United States on Friday came just short of breaking its single-day record for new coronavirus cases, adding more than 73,400, the second-highest daily total, and signaling that infection rates show no signs of slowing.

The single-day record, set on July 16, is 75,697 cases. Since June 24, the seven-day average has more than doubled, from 31,402 to more than 66,100 on Friday.

Friday was also the fourth consecutive day with more than 1,100 deaths reported.

As the number of cases has continued to climb, so has the number of hospitalizations, which had skirted its own record in recent days.

On Friday, the number of people known to be hospitalized with the coronavirus in the United States was 59,670, according to the Covid Tracking Project, a few hundred short of the record of 59,940 reported by the database on April 15."_

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/24/world/coronavirus-covid-19.html


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

STill dumping these 'Daily Death' Curves in here. This time with annotation.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

I'm going to file this under "_I told you so._" 
Particularly to the 'Hoaxers' or 'It is Being Way Too Exaggerated In the Media" people in this forum.
Today's daily death toll was over 1500 USA citizens.
That is approximately 1 citizen in the united states dying every minute due to COVID-19.
This is the 'death rate' lagging by the 'case rate' by 3-4 weeks.
It will get worse (or stay bad) before it gets better.
Wash Your Hands. Stay distant from other people. Wear a mask. Stay Home when you can, or do social activities outdoors.

From the NYT website:

_"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate that in some regions the number of people who have been infected could be two to 13 times higher than the tallies of reported cases. Experts have said the official death toll probably omits many people whose deaths were virus-related, especially early in the pandemic. And more people will die each day as long as the virus continues to spread.

Weekly averages of reported deaths in the United States had fallen substantially since an early peak in mid-April, when the national death toll was driven largely by a catastrophic surge in New York State. But deaths began to climb again this month, and the nation is now reporting about 1,000 deaths a day.
The current toll is being felt much more widely across many states, especially in the South, while New York is down to reporting an average of 16 deaths a day. Nearly 2,200 deaths have been reported in the past week in Texas, the state with the highest recent death toll relative to its population, followed by Arizona and South Carolina. Florida broke its daily record again on Wednesday, reporting 216 fatalities and bringing the state's overall total to 6,332."_


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

So originally it was a two week lag, then it was a three lag and now it is a 3-4 week lag.
Just like all the experts eventually you have to pick something out to declare you were right.

During April and may there were 30,00 cases per day with 2,000+ deaths per day.
Over the last month there have been 60,000 cases per day you would expect 4,000+ deaths per day.
The fact is there have been on average 1,000 deaths per day.
For those who can't do math that is 25% o what it could have been.
I told you there was not going to be a spike and the numbers are confirming it.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> So originally it was a two week lag, then it was a three lag and now it is a 3-4 week lag.
> Just like all the experts eventually you have to pick something out to declare you were right.
> 
> During April and may there were 30,00 cases per day with 2,000+ deaths per day.
> ...


You can argue with my 'error' and 'noise' bars, it is much harder to argue with the daily-death trends. Your assumptions are also taking the extreme case (the overwhelming of NYC hospitals and 'fog of war' in the American response when the virus first broke out. Yes, policies have improved (COVID-suspect patients not sent to Long Term Care) and the population densities in Florida, Texas and California, while quite dense, are not at the most extreme case in American cities, New York City, where are are setting the assumption. If you took the people per sq-mile in many of these districts vs. NY and applied that multiplier, it would bring down your position of assumption.

Bottom line is the trend. It's going up. It's consistently over 1000 per day. The curve is not looking good. I believe we were arguing trends, or the fractured responses to COVID-19 the not spikes. Yes, spikes are awful, and an indication of a profound overloading of the medical infrastructure. That the bulk of the cases are younger after the USA reopened has done some help that hospitals have been less overloaded (so far, but they are at capacity in FL, TX, CA at the moment), there are factors and adjustments, which have helped. But really, every other country (except for Mexico, Brazil and India) have flattened the daily deaths curve by social distancing, mask wearing, and 'going along to get along' but the USA is a spectacular failure, and the trends in rising daily deaths (albeit nowhere as high as your WORST CASE SCENARIO) is still spectacularly not good.

Also, from the outset in our discussion I said 'about 3 weeks.' -> looking back through the comments, the 2 week figure is the one you kept insisting upon. Obviously the figure is variable and depending on how each USA jurisdiction can gather and report the data to the CDC, and whether it was older people being infected or younger. Many variables. This is the hill you want to die on? Whether it is 3 or 4 weeks lag? OK. So we've gone from 'It's about the deaths, not the cases." (your original assertion) to now only, There is no spike (despite deaths steadily increasing...


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

WEY00L said:


> So originally it was a two week lag, then it was a three lag and now it is a 3-4 week lag.
> Just like all the experts eventually you have to pick something out to declare you were right.
> 
> During April and may there were 30,00 cases per day with 2,000+ deaths per day.
> ...





WEY00L said:


> So originally it was a two week lag, then it was a three lag and now it is a 3-4 week lag.
> Just like all the experts eventually you have to pick something out to declare you were right.
> 
> During April and may there were 30,00 cases per day with 2,000+ deaths per day.
> ...


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

_Also, from the outset in our discussion I said 'about 3 weeks.' -> looking back through the comments, the 2 week figure is the one you kept insisting upon. Obviously the figure is variable and depending on....._*What best fits your narrative.*
You are the only one I have heard say it is a 3 week lag....much less a 3-4 week lag.
Most of the experts have stated it is a 2 week lag.
And the numbers have proven the two weeks to be an accurate indicator.

You are making assumptions you have no clue what you are talking about.
Where I live most people have been wearing their masks.
Neither of us can speak about areas where we don't live.
A month ago many people were not wearing their masks and not properly social distancing.
BUT....most of those people were younger and not at risk of death....which is why I was confident there would be no spike in deaths...and the numbers have proven me right.

If you look at the 7 day average the case curve is flattening and hopefully we are going to see steady declines.
1,000 deaths per day is too many but once again perspective is needed.
There are nearly 3 millions deaths per year in the US.......that is 7,500 every day.
To put that in terms you can comprehend it is 5 deaths each and every minute of the day.
PERSPECTIVE.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> _Also, from the outset in our discussion I said 'about 3 weeks.' -> looking back through the comments, the 2 week figure is the one you kept insisting upon. Obviously the figure is variable and depending on....._*What best fits your narrative.*
> You are the only one I have heard say it is a 3 week lag....much less a 3-4 week lag.
> Most of the experts have stated it is a 2 week lag.
> And the numbers have proven the two weeks to be an accurate indicator.
> ...


Due to everything, old age, drugs, car crashed, health/obesity/diabetes. 20% being Covid-19 is pretty serious, whatever way you slice it. We are not so far from each other on this.

look at every other Western Democracy's daily death curve. That is perspective. USA is a massive outlier of poor results in that comparison. Frankly it is embarrassing.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Due to everything, old age, drugs, car crashed, health/obesity/diabetes. 20% being Covid-19 is pretty serious, whatever way you slice it. We are not so far from each other on this.
> 
> look at every other Western Democracy's daily death curve. That is perspective. USA is a massive outlier of poor results in that comparison. Frankly it is embarrassing.


I don't know how you people north of the border do sports but here in the United States we count the score at the end of the game.
There are many countries and states that did very well in April and May that are seeing surges in cases and deaths the last month. (FL, CA, TX, AZ)

Like wise there are countries and states that got hit hard but now have low cases and deaths.
New York has 20% of the deaths in the US and New Jersey has 10%, yesterday they had 35 deaths (Less than 3% of the daily total)
Italy and Spain have 63,000 deaths combined, yesterday they had 5.

When you look at deaths per 1 million population the US is #10 on the list while Canada is #23 out of 200+ countries.
Given how spread out you guys are #23 is a piss poor record if you ask me.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> I don't know how you people north of the border do sports but here in the United States we count the score at the end of the game.
> There are many countries and states that did very well in April and May that are seeing surges in cases and deaths the last month. (FL, CA, TX, AZ)


We do sports the same way. We also know that a score of 20 - 3 is a blow out in a Hockey Game, and likely no coming back from that.

Canada is no world leader in COVID-19 handling. That's for sure. We have had huge outbreaks in our old age homes and long term care centres. 80% of deaths there. Ouch.
And while we may be a huge country. Over 90% of our population exist in just 6 cities. Toronto is bigger than Chicago for instance. We are more urbane than America.


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## Joe Knob (Oct 7, 2015)

So by education fee, you mean you wait 5 minutes and then charge them a no show fee? I can see how that can become awkward or even dangerous . I guess if you drive a block away you're good..


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Joe Knob said:


> So by education fee, you mean you wait 5 minutes and then charge them a no show fee? I can see how that can become awkward or even dangerous . I guess if you drive a block away you're good..


Things are not as Dangerous up here in Canada. I often wait only a few meters from pax.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

My lord. THE USA has done so poorly at this. Here is some per capita comparisons to the most similar society to the USA in the world (CANADA) - we watch the same TV, read the same books, consume much of the same news media and such. We have a lot in common. Public Health though, we differ a bit on that front.










For every Canadian that died of COVID-19 in JULY, there were 1000 Americans that died.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> For every Canadian that died of COVID-19 in JULY, there were 1000 Americans that died.


Worth a listen.
(For those with ADHD, watch at 1.5x speed)


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Desipite what The American Leadership has been saying, the Daily Death Counts are going up and up and up. 
If the goal is to keep your citizens from dying of a novel disease, this is NOT the way to do it.
Canada is shown on the graph below for comparison purproses.


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## Frank White Philly (Jan 15, 2020)

These people don't care. "The last driver didn't care!" And they don't even read any of the safety info at all. And they routinely try to fit more people than allowed on the trip. When they order a ride, it asks how many people are in your party. If they tell the truth, they have to get a larger vehicle and a larger price tag. But they don't want to pay the higher *prices so they lie once and put "1" and they lie again when you ask, "how many people did you select were in your party when you ordered the ride?"

These people are liars and are the type to 1 star you for nothing.

I recently had a guy give me almost every negative comment possible AND say I wasn't wearing a mask. I called Uber and said just give me the date in question and I'll send my dashcam footage in for the ENTIRE day to prove this rider was lying through their teeth. *


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Frank White Philly said:


> These people don't care. "The last driver didn't care!" And they don't even read any of the safety info at all. And they routinely try to fit more people than allowed on the trip. When they order a ride, it asks how many people are in your party. If they tell the truth, they have to get a larger vehicle and a larger price tag. But they don't want to pay the higher *prices so they lie once and put "1" and they lie again when you ask, "how many people did you select were in your party when you ordered the ride?"
> 
> These people are liars and are the type to 1 star you for nothing.
> 
> I recently had a guy give me almost every negative comment possible AND say I wasn't wearing a mask. I called Uber and said just give me the date in question and I'll send my dashcam footage in for the ENTIRE day to prove this rider was lying through their teeth. *


I have found in the past that the UBER rating system does a pretty good job of giving you a heads up in many of these cases. Less than 4.80, and you are likely to run into issues. I decline these at the ping request, so I don't have to bother with the confrontation.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Chiming in briefly with an update. USA COVID-19 deaths are finally 'leveling off' but the 'normal' is now almost 1 death per minute in the USA due to COVID. This is what happens when people thing things are a HOAX (or in their parlance, "Overblown") and do not take public health seriously. Economy tanking, Loss of faith in Democracy. What a shitshow...
*
(meanwhile, in Canada & Germany, who have conspiracy nuts too, but not to the level of the USA, deaths from COVID-19 are nearly zero per day, and yet those countries are still taking public health very seriously)*


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

PSA For you Pro-Maskers:

_"Doctors and dentists say they're seeing a new wave of dental issues from prolonged mask wearing due to COVID-19.
The wave is being coined 'mask mouth', and includes symptoms like bad breath, tooth decay and gum inflammation."_


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Taxi2Uber said:


> PSA For you Pro-Maskers:
> 
> _"Doctors and dentists say they're seeing a new wave of dental issues from prolonged mask wearing due to COVID-19.
> The wave is being coined 'mask mouth', and includes symptoms like bad breath, tooth decay and gum inflammation."_
> ...


4 out of 5 dentists recommend Trident gum.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Taxi2Uber said:


> PSA For you Pro-Maskers: SCIENCE


Please forward your peer review links on this. Thanks. Or keep spreading nonsense to support your ridiculous selfish political opinions on a subject that should not be politicized.
I think you are so far up your political creek, you have lost the ability to see beyond your own conspiracies and nonsense. Bodies like the CDC change their position reacting to data and peer reviewed journals. The more we learn about the virus to more we can adapt. You seem so damn certain of everything, that is a weakness, not a strength.












Taxi2Uber said:


> _"Doctors and dentists say they're seeing a new wave of dental issues from prolonged mask wearing due to COVID-19.
> The wave is being coined 'mask mouth', and includes symptoms like bad breath, tooth decay and gum inflammation."_


Currently we have THE DAILY MAIL and the NYPost reporting on this. Hardly bastions of thoughtful journalism. Both tabloids that get their currency by whipping up anger and outrage, mainly in old people (and some right leaning younger folks...)


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Please forward your peer review links on this. Thanks.


What's the point. As I said before, you are afraid of what I have to say. 
Dismissing things you don't want to believe in, and calling them conspiracies is lazy thinking.
Keep living in that bubble.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Taxi2Uber said:


> What's the point. As I said before, you are afraid of what I have to say.
> Dismissing things you don't want to believe in, and calling them conspiracies is lazy thinking.
> Keep living in that bubble.


Are you not doing the same thing here? I'm struggling with the notion that you are fully immersed in the same partisan framing bias that you accuse me of, but that's ok, but it is lazy when I do it. It appears our discourse has it full stalemate conditions.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> .I think you are so far up your political creek, you have lost the ability to see beyond your own conspiracies and nonsense. Bodies like the CDC change their position reacting to data and peer reviewed journals. The more we learn about the virus to more we can adapt. You seem so damn certain of everything, that is a weakness, not a strength.


Sorry, but you need to take your own advice.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Sorry, but you need to take your own advice.


I can respect that.



Taxi2Uber said:


> As I said before, you are afraid of what I have to say.


I'm less afraid of what you have to say, and far more acutely embarrassed by it. Disappointed in your utter lack of compassion and humanity. But hey, you do you, I guess.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Are you not doing the same thing here?


No, because I don't have the ability, like you do, to delete or edit posts to change the message as intended.
And you have.



Kurt Halfyard said:


> I'm struggling with the notion that you are fully immersed in the same partisan framing bias that you accuse me of


You are struggling to understand and accept an opposing point of view BECAUSE of you bias.
You allow others to think for you and you just follow.
In contrast, I'm an independent thinker.
I'm not influenced by one man, one piece of data, one party.



Kurt Halfyard said:


> I'm less afraid of what you have to say, and far more acutely embarrassed by it. Disappointed in your utter lack of compassion and humanity.


Not buying it. You are a lazy thinker.
It's easier for you to just dismiss my viewpoint and call it an embarrassment, uncompassionate, or whatever.
It saves you from having to really think about it and have a proper debate.
Just like the snowflakes who cry out flat earther, conspiracy theorist, etc.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Taxi2Uber said:


> I don't have the ability, like you do, to delete or edit posts to change the message as intended.


I have never edited or deleted your posts in this thread, nor in the Las Vegas Regional thread. I am unclear where this persecution complex comes from on your part. Please do the work to help me out here. Considering your bull-ish tone, and confrontational attitude, towards anyone who does not fall into your line of thinking, this current tactic of using the 'punching up' as a validation for your 'victimhood' seems a bit disengenuous. Give me some hard evidence here, and we can continue this line of conversation.



Taxi2Uber said:


> You are struggling to understand and accept an opposing point of view BECAUSE of you bias.
> You allow others to think for you and you just follow.
> In contrast, I'm an independent thinker.
> I'm not influenced by one man, one piece of data, one party.


Just 'stating something like above, doesn't make it reality. Allow me to unpack the above few lines, by reading all of your posts. Shakespeare figured this kind of rhetorical strategy out hundreds of years ago, as the Bard was wont to do, he summed it up succintly: "THOU DOST PROTEST TOO MUCH."
There is littel in your pro-Trump, tow the party line in all of your posts that suggest 'great independent thinker' All I see is adhomin attacks and division, the current administration has certainly opened the door to embolden division. Because I follow the science, from reputable mainstream news sources (BBC, The Globe & Mail, The Guardian) and reputable institutions like the CDC and CanadaHealth, I am lazy? I think rather this is pragmatic. Far more than dropping down into conspiracy, unifying theory rabbit holes on Youtube and Facebook, which may not be the case in your case, but I have seen many 'deep thinkers' just read headlines and watch youtube videos and consider themselves having taken the red pill. It's a fallacy.



Taxi2Uber said:


> You are a lazy thinker.
> It's easier for you to just dismiss my viewpoint and call it an embarrassment, uncompassionate, or whatever.
> It saves you from having to really think about it and have a proper debate.
> Just like the snowflakes who cry out flat earther, conspiracy theorist, etc.


It is difficult to debate with someone so obstinate, with an angry bully mentality. Frankly, I'm unclear what a proper debate with you looks like. I believe we were on track at the beginning of this thread, but then you started flying around with the insults. I find it amusing every time a person such as yourself throws around the SNOWFLAKE word, because in my experience, your 'I can handle the hard truths' is just a 'beard' (cover) for your fragile ego that gets rattled and enraged when confronted with different viewpoints.

Carry on, keep calling me lazy, keep trying to pull me down. I would say to anyone 'enjoying' the THEATRE in this thread, to have a look at my posting history, and have a look at your posting history. I think while neither of us is perfect, and I do often take the low-road with some things myself, I am happy with my record of contributions to this site as a human being, and a ridehail driver trying to make the best of this gig work, compared the hot mess of paristan nonsense and breathy conspiracies in your thousands of posts.

One thing is certainly clear, I do hope we never meet in public. Vegas and Toronto are thankfully, worlds apart at this moment.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Taxi2Uber said:


> No, because I don't have the ability, like you do, to delete or edit posts to change the message as intended.
> And you have.
> 
> You are struggling to understand and accept an opposing point of view BECAUSE of you bias.
> ...


I have to defend Kurt here.
I have not witnessed him doing any of the things you are accusing him of.
We have had a spirited debate with a few shots over each other's bow but it has been for the most part respectful.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> I have to defend Kurt here.
> I have not witnessed him doing any of the things you are accusing him of.
> We have had a spirited debate with a few shot over each other's bow but it has been for the most part respectful.


✊ &#128591;


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Taxi2Uber said:


> In contrast, I'm an independent thinker.





Kurt Halfyard said:


> There is littel in your...posts that suggest 'great independent thinker'


Perfect example.
I didn't say '_great_' independent thinker.
You hear what you want to hear.

I say I'm against mandatory masks for example, and all you hear is "Conspiracy theorist! Flat earther!"
I defend a position with truths (to me) or data, and in your mind you're thinking "Obstinate!"
I speak plainly and to the point, and you hear "Angry bully". 
(Yet you're somehow OK with it when others that share your views do the same. Guess it makes you feel validated.)

And speaking of low road, (and yeah, you are definitely on it)...
All the, "bullish tone", "divisive", "fragile ego", blah blah blah, you are surely not being lazy about trying to paint a picture of me using EVERY cliche or talking point. LOL
This is your typical Canadian condescending tactic that you do oh so well. (You are really bad at reading people though)
So rally the troops and surround yourself with 'yes men' and stroke your fellow 'like' buddies, as you try so hard to silence, dismiss, discredit those with an opposing view.

But you're right about one thing, I may disagree and I will tell you I think you're wrong, but UNLIKE YOU, I don't try to force my beliefs onto others and make them think what I want them to think.
I don't mind standing alone, in my values and beliefs, again UNLIKE YOU, who needs to be validated by others.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Go ahead, continue to straw-man argue, while being paranoid that I am persecuting you. It makes my point. Cheers.

You appear to be critical of me, and have long ago abandoned any arguments of substance in this post. I’ve been told you have a M.O. of baiting Moderators on the site. Congratulations, I fell into your web.

It also appears your strategy for the most part is to spend a lot of time taking others down, so that by comparison, you do not look so bad. This is remarkable similar to the US President's divide/chaos/deflect stratagem.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Go ahead, continue to straw-man argue, while being paranoid that I am persecuting you.


LOL. You used up just about all the cliches. 
Don't forget virtue signalling. That's a good one.
Let's see...you reap what you sow...um...it's always darkest before the dawn....well, I'm sure you'll get the them and others.


Kurt Halfyard said:


> I've been told you have a M.O. of baiting Moderators on the site.


LOL. Who's paranoid now, sport?
(Cute how you're afraid to quote my post, too LOL. But I still saw it. Oops.)

Remember, YOU sought me out and trolled me.
You were hoping I'd just roll over and take it.
Nope. Wrong guy.


Kurt Halfyard said:


> This is remarkable similar to the US President's divide/chaos/deflect stratagem.


Another Liberal Lunatic with a random, unrelated Trump bash.
Seems you found an even lower road. How lame.

And I don't think you know what _deflect_ means, as I responded directly to your qualms.
As usual, the lazy thinker just dismisses the message. 
Stay uninformed. It's easier for you that way.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Taxi2Uber said:


> And I don't think you know what _deflect_ means, as I responded directly to your qualms.
> As usual, the lazy thinker just dismisses the message.
> Stay uninformed. It's easier for you that way.


The whole deflect thing is that you have not discussed anything related to the topic at hand, and instead are 100% _ad hominem_ on me personally. I respond in kind.

Case in Point: You must be loving the entire sports world SKEWING left and supporting BLM at the moment.

Rest assured, the moral arc of western society will favour bending towards compassion and empathy, and not your ways of hate and trolling. Keep bashing me.

Anyone reading this knows who is the reasonable person, and who is just SCREAMING into the VOID. Your love of STRONG MAN tactics, CERTAINTY, and other authoritarian 'tough guy' paranoias. You see have you have never been censored, but that seems to be one of your key arguments. Whatever pal. Keep railing at polite society. Enjoy the ulcers.



Taxi2Uber said:


> Another Liberal Lunatic with a random, unrelated Trump bash.
> Seems you found an even lower road. How lame.


----------



## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Back to the topic at hand.
The number of cases in the US is declining and is being followed by a decline in the number of deaths.
The question is, is the the beginning of the end or just another lull before another storm?


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Back to the topic at hand.
> The number of cases in the US is declining and is being followed by a decline in the number of deaths.
> The question is, is the the beginning of the end or just another lull before another storm?


In spite of the ongoing politicization of MASK WEARING in the USA (the only G20 country to go this far in that regard, and the worst outcome on COVID-19 in the same set), I do consider that a lot of people (the vast majority) and various State Governors who were resistant at first to Mask Policies, have seen the effects/results of 'unfettered freedom' on public health and safety, and have adjusted. As the cases continue their slow decline, the daily deaths (Still 1000 / day though, which is MADNESS) will follow on a 3-4 week later basis.

I think when all is said and done, the USA economy will be hurt more than the economies that did a hard-full shut down, and instituted mandatory indoor mask policies.

And didn't have the usual TRUMP-IST morons throwing fits because they enjoy watching the world burn.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> In spite of the ongoing politicization of MASK WEARING in the USA (the only G20 country to go this far in that regard, and the worst outcome on COVID-19 in the same set), I do consider that a lot of people (the vast majority) and various State Governors who were resistant at first to Mask Policies, have seen the effects/results of 'unfettered freedom' on public health and safety, and have adjusted. As the cases continue their slow decline, the daily deaths (Still 1000 / day though, which is MADNESS) will follow on a 3-4 week later basis.
> 
> I think when all is said and done, the USA economy will be hurt more than the economies that did a hard-full shut down, and instituted mandatory indoor mask policies.
> 
> And didn't have the usual TRUMP-IST morons throwing fits because they enjoy watching the world burn.


We all know the actual numbers are bogus.
The numbers are useful when used to follow trends but other than that they will lead you to making false conclusions.

You are way over blowing the whole mask controversy.
You don't live here and are only relying on what MSNBC and CNN are brainwashing you with.
While masks play a part in slowing the spread they will not eliminate the virus.
Any other unfounded theories?


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> We all know the actual numbers are bogus.
> The numbers are useful when used to follow trends but other than that they will lead you to making false conclusions.
> 
> You are way over blowing the whole mask controversy.
> ...


I don't "WATCH" my news, I read about it. No MSNBC, CNN, FOX, ABC, CBS. NONE OF THAT. I read the National Post, The Globe & Mail, The Guardian, The SF Chronicle, The NYT, VOX, The Economist, & The WallSt. Journal, Wired, The Atlantic.
I have a lot of friends in Dallas, NYC, Minneapolic, L.A. Austin, Chicago and Boston. I get their impressions, along with fact-checked printed news.
I'm sure my impression of 'AMERICA as a WHOLE' is just as reasonable as someone living in say, San Diego, Miami, or Pheonix. I mean, it's a country of many regions and 350+Million.

When we stop trusting the scientific institutions and succumb to paranoia and fear mongering, that is when polite society ends. The world is witnessing this in real time from the former 'beacon of democracy'. It's a long, slow, ugly decline for those on the outside looking in. If we are not having a data driven discussion, we might as well go back to the dark ages. Ignoring science in favour of 'fantasy politics' didn't help the USSR with denying Chernobyl. It's not helping USA (or North Korea, or Tanzania) from denying COVID-19.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

WEY00L said:


> Any other unfounded theories?


i do i do i do: Drinking bleach will kill CV19. Injecting sunlight 'into' your body will kill CV19. An assortment of drugs will 'cure' you of CV19. Pillow man has changed careers to CV19 wonder drugs. Masks are not needed, ever. Only the really really old die. We all will get it anyway, so go to public gatherings today. Too much testing creates too many cases. oh, my fav: vaccines come from alien's blood.

ahem and many more. All from dear leader President and his cult of confused, dazed followers.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Keep bashing me.


Will do.

I love it when someone like yourself, calls out people.
Have some self awareness.

I posted an on topic post and you responded with name calling.
Go back and read it again.



Kurt Halfyard said:


> In spite of the ongoing politicization of MASK WEARING in the USA





Kurt Halfyard said:


> And didn't have the usual TRUMP-IST morons throwing fits because they enjoy watching the world burn.


Sounds like YOU are politicizing the issue with constant references to President Trump in your posts.

Not that you would know, but it's actually the Radical Left that caused and enjoys watching the burn.
Feel the Bern burn.

Also, other countries don't have FlipFlopFauci making mistakes and providing bad intel.

Also, big pharma influence to hinder and halt existing drugs proven effective to mitigate the spread of the virus.



SHalester said:


> Drinking bleach will kill CV19. Injecting sunlight 'into' your body will kill CV19. An assortment of drugs will 'cure' you of CV19. Pillow man has changed careers to CV19 wonder drugs. Masks are not needed, ever. Only the really really old die. We all will get it anyway, so go to public gatherings today. Too much testing creates too many cases. oh, my fav: vaccines come from alien's blood.


If I may, with as you often say, tone, balance, etc,....
Drinking bleach will kill CV19. - If you took this seriously, that says more about you than your 'President leader'.

Injecting sunlight 'into' your body will kill CV19. - Fauci confirms Trump's statement that sunlight kills the virus.

An assortment of drugs will 'cure' you of CV19. - Nothing 'Cures', but yes proven, existing drugs have shown effective treatment in patients by doctors.

Pillow man has changed careers to CV19 wonder drugs. - Is that bad?

Masks are not needed, ever. - Never said.

Only the really really old die. - Never said.

We all will get it anyway, so go to public gatherings today. - Somewhat true. Another of Fauci's claim: The virus will not go away.

Too much testing creates too many cases. - In a recent and abrupt change of position, the CDC is now telling the public, testing might not be necessary.

vaccines come from alien's blood. - IIRC it was alien DNA. Doesn't mean little green men. In the scientific world 'alien' can mean foreign to the host or synthetic. Scientists have created proteins and life forms from 'alien' DNA.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Taxi2Uber said:


> Drinking bleach will kill CV19.


as usual you missed the point. Dear leader President TOOK THIS SEROULSY enough to ask his 'experts', who were in the room, if they were looking into it. Only after the embarrassment President tried to walk it back he was joking. He wasn't.



Taxi2Uber said:


> Injecting sunlight 'into' your body will kill CV19.


Again, were you watching this live when it happened? President said injecting sunlight into the body, we are looking into it. Again, he turned to his right and asked the doctors if they were looking into it. They nodded like cult believers, or intense embarrassment.



Taxi2Uber said:


> Pillow man has changed careers to CV19 wonder drugs.


yes, when the drug he was pushing is pure and utter bull waste. Much like bleach, aye?



Taxi2Uber said:


> Only the really really old die.


You need to conduct more research and cease only watching Fox News et al. Dotards cult followers have said this over and over and over.



Taxi2Uber said:


> Masks are not needed,


hahahahaha. Try again. Get back to us. How many of his 'events' are his cult followers wearing masks? Is he wearing a mask? Did you see just today President is thinning the ranks of the SS agents as they keep getting CV19. Do'h?



Taxi2Uber said:


> Too much testing creates too many cases.


Back peddling? Most states, if not all, ignoring the CDC on this; even the leader of the CDC walked it back. Oooops? I know this fact will go straight over your head: asymptomatic people cause 50% of the cases. Noodle that. Get back to us.



Taxi2Uber said:


> In the scientific world 'alien' can mean foreign to the host or synthetic. Scientists have created proteins and life forms from 'alien' DNA.


hahahahahaha. You think that whack job meant THAT. Oh, are you looking for a job on President's team? I hear he hires folks with your opinions, since they match his.

Consider your purpose here.


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## everydayimubering (Aug 5, 2017)

Madisoy said:


> Recently My rating has dropped significantly. LOL


Back in mid-May when they first started making masks mandatory, my polite reminders to maskless/faceless paxholes earned me two lone-stars, at least one of each 3 and 4 stars, nasty looks, comments like 'I don't have the virus' or 'I'm too young to catch it/my immune system is strong', etc., and of course zero tips. And this when I drove 10 miles to pickup point and accepted the ride while Uber wasn't charging any education fee at all. Such is the nature of the beast commonly known as a 'paxhole'!



Karen Stein said:


> I'll take my chances with freedom every time.


Freedom, what freedom? The one you never had and never will? That's why you need guns to protect yourselves from the violence - giving you a false sense of security while turning you into an easy target for the millions of others carrying the same guns with the same objectives in mind - to have the freedom to pull that trigger if threatened. Btw, did you hear government leaders around the world have nothing better to do than to see their economies nose-dive by spreading false rumors of a plandemic and asking people to stay home/stop working/wear masks, etc. - simply in order to 'control the population'! And Trump is the only one who's gonna save us all.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I don't "WATCH" my news, I read about it. No MSNBC, CNN, FOX, ABC, CBS. NONE OF THAT. I read the National Post, The Globe & Mail, The Guardian, The SF Chronicle, The NYT, VOX, The Economist, & The WallSt. Journal, Wired, The Atlantic.
> I have a lot of friends in Dallas, NYC, Minneapolic, L.A. Austin, Chicago and Boston. I get their impressions, along with fact-checked printed news.
> I'm sure my impression of 'AMERICA as a WHOLE' is just as reasonable as someone living in say, San Diego, Miami, or Pheonix. I mean, it's a country of many regions and 350+Million.
> 
> When we stop trusting the scientific institutions and succumb to paranoia and fear mongering, that is when polite society ends. The world is witnessing this in real time from the former 'beacon of democracy'. It's a long, slow, ugly decline for those on the outside looking in. If we are not having a data driven discussion, we might as well go back to the dark ages. Ignoring science in favour of 'fantasy politics' didn't help the USSR with denying Chernobyl. It's not helping USA (or North Korea, or Tanzania) from denying COVID-19.


The dark ages is posting commentary based on bogus numbers when you know the numbers are bogus.
Step into the age of enlightenment.

Here is a list for you:
Peru
Belgium
Spain
UK
Italy
Chile
Sweden

What list is that?
Counties that have more deaths per million population than the United States.
Any G20 counties on that list????????

Do you really want us all to believe that if we traveled to Canada that everyone would be wearing a mask and practicing strict social distancing?
It is obvious from your bias in other posts that your friends in the US are more than likely Trump haters just like you.
For shyts and giggles I looked at some stats from states along the Canada border that more than likely share similar population densities and climate and weather.

Deaths per 1 million population:
New York 1,697
Michigan 675
Minnesota 330
New Hampshire 318
Washington 250
*CANADA 241*
Idaho 200
Wisconsin 192
North Dakota 185
Maine 98
Montana 97
Vermont 93

Canada residents really don't have any moral high ground on the Covid issue.
The point is before you criticize the splinter in your neighbor's eye you should remove the log in your own eye.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Deaths per 1 million population:
> New York 1,697
> Michigan 675
> Minnesota 330
> ...


I find it amusing that you break your country down by state, and yet mine is a MONOLITH. There are provinces in Canada with single digit deaths. Most of the people dead of Covid in Canada are in Nursing Homes in Ontario and Quebec and British Colombia.

I think far right leaning Americans have drunk the Kool-Aid that America isn't ****ing awful at handing COVID at the Federal and many State Levels. It's profoundly embarrassing for most Europeans and Canadians to have this conversation with Americans that have dug in on the subject.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I find it amusing that you break your country down by state, and yet mine is a MONOLITH. There are provinces in Canada with single digit deaths. Most of the people dead of Covid in Canada are in Nursing Homes in Ontario and Quebec and British Colombia.
> 
> I think far right leaning Americans have drunk the Kool-Aid that America isn't @@@@ing awful at handing COVID at the Federal and many State Levels. It's profoundly embarrassing for most Europeans and Canadians to have this conversation with Americans that have dug in on the subject.


I find it amusing that you look at the USA as a MONOLITH when New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts have 33% of the deaths and only 10% of the population.
Fat left wing extremists who are jealous of their neighbor to the south show no shame in their blame Trump for everything.
You have drunk the hate Trump kool-aid and have become deranged in your opinions.
The experts were predicting 500,000 deaths in the US.......Trump has saved 300,000 American lives.

PS I forgot about Alaska......51 deaths per million.
Canada is 5 times worse than Alaska.....Shameful....take the tree out of your eye.


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## everydayimubering (Aug 5, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> The dark ages is posting commentary based on bogus numbers when you know the numbers are bogus.
> Step into the age of enlightenment.
> 
> Here is a list for you:
> ...


Unfortunately, your response is very incoherent and it makes zero ****ing sense.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

everydayimubering said:


> Unfortunately, your response is very incoherent and it makes zero @@@@ing sense.


Sorry Palski, But I am not going to dumb it down for you.


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## ng4ever (Feb 16, 2016)

They should like Uber drivers sell masks for $5 unless that is to much.

If someone refuses to still wear a mask then no trip.


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## everydayimubering (Aug 5, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Sorry Palski, But I am not going to dumb it down for you.


It might help if you go back to school and learn something, lile how to write two sentences that make some sense. G'luck!


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Please, gentlemen, a civil conversation is possible, even in the ultra-politicized world of the USA.

@everydayimubering 
@WEY00L


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## everydayimubering (Aug 5, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> The experts were predicting 500,000 deaths in the US.......Trump has saved 300,000 American lives.


Great logic! Just like "Our numbers are high because we do more tests, so it's obvious - the more tests you do, the more cases you'll find". &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

everydayimubering said:


> Great logic! Just like "Our numbers are high because we do more tests, so it's obvious - the more tests you do, the more cases you'll find". &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


I'm done with you troll.
It is obvious your IQ is in single digits.
Ignored.


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## Floofy (Aug 22, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> View attachment 475630
> 
> 
> Many US States (and Canadian Provinces) are moving towards fully re-opening their economies, and the demand for Uber and Lyft rides has seen a drip drip drip increase in the past few weeks. In some markets onboarding of new drivers was put on hold, and many more drivers have deemed the government assistance packages more lucrative than the profits (and risk) from driving ride hail. Yes gas may be cheap, but car insurance, vehicle sanitization and personal protective equipment (PPE such as masks, gloves or whathaveyou) are an added expense in a time where demand remains way down.
> ...


Since they can be had for cheap now, do you carry any to give passengers that have a true mishap? Willing to wear one but forgot it too far away to retrieve in time?


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Floofy said:


> Since they can be had for cheap now, do you carry any to give passengers that have a true mishap? Willing to wear one but forgot it too far away to retrieve in time?


I keep a small supply for passengers who are going far or if I am destination mode. But o do not like to enable passengers when they ought to know better


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/masks-breathing-in-less-coronavirus-means-you-get-less-sick
"The amount of virus that you're exposed to - called the viral inoculum, or dose - has a lot to do with how sick you get. If the exposure dose is very high, the immune response can become overwhelmed. Between the virus taking over huge numbers of cells and the immune system's drastic efforts to contain the infection, a lot of damage is done to the body and a person can become very sick.

On the other hand, if the initial dose of the virus is small, the immune system is able to contain the virus with less drastic measures. If this happens, the person experiences fewer symptoms, if any.

Experimental evidence showing that masks reduce viral dose comes from another hamster experiment. Hamsters were divided into an unmasked group and a masked group by placing surgical mask material over the pipes that brought air into the cages of the masked group. Hamsters infected with the coronavirus were placed in cages next to the masked and unmasked hamsters, and the air was pumped from the infected cages into the cages with uninfected hamsters.

As expected, the masked hamsters were less likely to get infected with Covid-19. But when some of the masked hamsters did get infected, they had more mild disease than the unmasked hamsters."


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/masks-breathing-in-less-coronavirus-means-you-get-less-sick
> "The amount of virus that you're exposed to - called the viral inoculum, or dose - has a lot to do with how sick you get. If the exposure dose is very high, the immune response can become overwhelmed. Between the virus taking over huge numbers of cells and the immune system's drastic efforts to contain the infection, a lot of damage is done to the body and a person can become very sick.
> 
> On the other hand, if the initial dose of the virus is small, the immune system is able to contain the virus with less drastic measures. If this happens, the person experiences fewer symptoms, if any.
> ...


Bogus.
We have not had enough time to study the virus to be drawing these conclusions.
These kinds of "I don't care if I am right, I just want to be the first" articles is what is making so many people not trust the scientific community.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> Bogus.
> We have not had enough time to study the virus to be drawing these conclusions.
> These kinds of "I don't care if I am right, I just want to be the first" articles is what is making so many people not trust the scientific community.


This is how science works. Papers are submitted and peer-reviewed. Yes there is a race to be first (that is human), but the stuff is characterized and reacted to. 
Don't let perfect be the enemy of GOOD sir. 
The Science will keep evolving as we gather more date and more studies.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nri2802


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> This is how science works. Papers are submitted and peer-reviewed. Yes there is a race to be first (that is human), but the stuff is characterized and reacted to.
> Don't let perfect be the enemy of GOOD sir.
> The Science will keep evolving as we gather more date and more studies.
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nri2802


We can't afford to be wrong here....lives depend on being RIGHT.
This is precisely why so many people are not wearing masks.
Firsts masks were good.
Then some "I want to be first wanna be scientist" said masks were bad.
How many live have been lost because they didn't wait to find perfect and went with good????SIR.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> We can't afford to be wrong here....lives depend on being RIGHT.
> This is precisely why so many people are not wearing masks.
> Firsts masks were good.
> Then some "I want to be first wanna be scientist" said masks were bad.
> How many live have been lost because they didn't wait to find perfect and went with good????SIR.


LIVES DEPEND ON IT. What's the USA death count at now? 180,000 and counting?
Talk to the Orange-Man in chief, whose federal response and role modelling has been spurious at best, more divisive and wishful thinking than anything else.
(Let's not ALL throw stones from glass houses!)

As science is being done at speed in real time (analagous to the 'fog of war' in military theatres), there is going to be 'flip floping' as that is how the process works, as more data comes in and is repeated multiple times by different research groups. Yes it will take some time to come to the consensus. Yes, I wish the Media (MSM or otherwise) was better at disseminating the philosophy, methodology, and overall process of science, instead of shouting 'out of context results in headlines.'

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opi...e-most-important-science-lesson-of-our-lives/
_As parents worry about the school lessons kids have missed because of the pandemic, there's one dinner conversation about COVID-19 that can make-up for any lost science lessons. Talk about all the uncertainty and doubt, from changing rules about wearing masks to efforts to create a vaccine. Explain that what we're living through is science in action. 

Because, if your kids come out of this pandemic knowing in their bones that science is as much about what we currently don't know, as what we do, it will be the most important science lesson of their lives.  If this feels counterintuitive, it's because most of us leave high school, and any study of science, with a fundamentally skewed vision of science's nature.

*We tend to think of science as a noun, as facts in textbooks, but not also as a verb, as the doing of research.*

This is a crucial difference.  

The word "science" comes from a Latin root for "to know."* Yet on the way to knowing, science is ultimately about the right, responsibility and challenge of living with doubt.* As Albert Einstein quipped, "If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research." 

The reason we call the period in Europe around 1600 the Scientific Revolution is exactly because it was an intellectual rebellion against the primacy of received knowledge from the church or the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers such as Aristotle. The first scientists, such as Galileo, were fundamentally heretics (from the Greek, "to choose") because they asserted that the nature of reality could be perceived by individuals in the present through careful experimentation and observation. But what gives science its power as a way of knowing is that it's collective knowing - it's the facts that we can collectively agree on through repeated experimentation and observation.

It's why Britain's Royal Society (the world's oldest science club) has the motto Nullius in verba, Latin for "take nobody's word for it."

*This isn't about being bull-headed and arrogant, it's because scientists know that while the truth is out there, it is more often than not incredibly difficult to figure out.

 *No more so than when it comes to understanding the human body - we can't stop time, take a person apart, see how all the bits work and then put a living body back together again. So we do our best with medicine, whose track record, the editor of the distinguished British Medical Journal wrote in 2003, "is mostly a history of ineffective and often dangerous treatments."

  Last week, the first made-in-Canada vaccine trial started in Canada, one of more than 165 separate research efforts around the world to develop a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. Why so many? Why not a single, massive effort? Because no one (from the smartest graduate student to Nobel laureates) knows which of the 165 approaches will work. Or if any of them will. Or if one will provide only temporary immunity. 

Yet, as science itself has become the establishment, we have come to expect nearly divine and instantaneous levels of knowledge from the priests of science on any topic. This is especially true in the context of politics and public health.

Politicians naturally want to appear definitive and in control and the best ones during this pandemic have managed to convey both calm and hope, while acknowledging doubts and the necessity to develop policy on the fly using the latest and best - but imperfect - evidence.

 *This is why the pandemic, for all the confusion and suffering, is the ultimate teachable science moment. Science is the best intellectual tool we have for dealing with COVID-19. But it's not magic. Talking with our kids, we can acknowledge the vaccine hopes, the changing mask rules, the uncertainty and share that this is what it is to be human, seeking to know in a complex, mysterious world.*_

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opi...light-on-the-messy-and-sometimes-infuriating/
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opi...ust-fight-misinformation-trust-in-science-is/
(While it is certainly debatable, The United States has had the worst reaction/policies/outcomes of COVID-19 amongst the 1st world western countries. It's chaotic Federal Government, frequently dividing and pitting State and Municipal Governments against it has has a cost. It is more aligned with the responses of poorer countries (per capita) such as Brazil, Mexico and India)


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

For the record, here are the top 10 Richest Countries, both per capita AVERAGE (skewed due to the SUPER RICH, or a society where Wealth trickles up to the Top) and MEDIAN citizen (Middle of the Pack - an indicator of strength of Middle Class or social safety net society.)

Any country on the left or right side of this charge should be owning the COVID-19 Virus, as the country as have the full resources and assets to pay for anything it needs.


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## everydayimubering (Aug 5, 2017)

WEY00L said:


> I'm done with you troll.
> It is obvious your IQ is in single digits.
> Ignored.


Typical Trumpeter, conspiracy theorist or covidiot when left speechless!!


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

ItsDriving said:


> I have made a shoicking discovery! That passengers in my state/country do not require passengers who are on their way to get a covid test,well due to the fact they think they have covid and need transport are told to take an uber or taxi,and they are not required to tell the driver!!!


Thats pretty much everywhere. Same with being sick and going to the hospital with whatever.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

No cold Vax...
Over 200 viruses cause the common cold. 

Flu, yes


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