# Tesla’s crash rate dropped 40 percent after Autopilot was installed, Feds say



## RamzFanz

Article is here.

Tesla's crash rate dropped 40 percent after the electric carmaker installed its semi-autonomous Autopilot software, government regulators reported today.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration just released its report on the May 2016 fatal accident involving a Tesla Model S. Within the document, the government reports that the number of crashes dropped dramatically after Tesla introduced Autopilot in 2015, a fact that would seem to bolster the company's claims about the safety of semi-autonomous features in its vehicles.


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Report highlight: "The data show that the Tesla vehicles crash rate dropped by almost 40 percent after Autosteer installation."

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NHTSA analyzed all mileage and airbag deployment data supplied by Tesla for all 2014 through 2016 Model S and 2016 Model X vehicles equipped with Autopilot. The data show that the Tesla vehicles crash rate dropped by almost 40 percent after Autosteer installation.








NHTSA
The government concluded that while advanced driver assist systems (ADAS) like Autopilot may help in reducing auto accidents, they should not supplement or replace a driver's attention to the road. "While ADAS technologies are continually improving in performance in larger percentages of crash types, a driver should never wait for automatic braking to occur when a collision threat is perceived," the NHTSA said.


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## Jermin8r89

Its obvious they doing good. Its technoligy its not a human. Computers r better then humans fact to it. All they do is get better reason y its called "Artifical Technoligy"


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## WeirdBob

"Because, it will take decades to have a significant portion of the US car fleet functioning at Level 4 and above."

_Dr. Gill Pratt, CEO, Toyota Research Institute_
2017 Consumer Electronics Show (CES2017) Press Conference

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/2017-ces-press-conference-pratt.htm


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## RamzFanz

WeirdBob said:


> "Because, it will take decades to have a significant portion of the US car fleet functioning at Level 4 and above."
> 
> _Dr. Gill Pratt, CEO, Toyota Research Institute_
> 2017 Consumer Electronics Show (CES2017) Press Conference
> 
> http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/2017-ces-press-conference-pratt.htm


Toyota is saying 2020 for their TNC SDC, yes?


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## WeirdBob

RamzFanz said:


> Toyota is saying 2020 for their TNC SDC, yes?


Please read the quote again. He said it will take decades before a significant portion of the US car fleet is functioning at Level 4 and above, not that there won't be any on the road. There are human and economic as well as technical factors involved in the widespread adoption of SDC technology.


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## ABC123DEF

Some people are in such a rush for tech and robots to do all of our thinking, driving, walking, and working in general. We are becoming more brainwashed, asocial, and dumbed-down each day.


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## Jermin8r89

ABC123DEF said:


> Some people are in such a rush for tech and robots to do all of our thinking, driving, walking, and working in general. We are becoming more brainwashed, asocial, and dumbed-down each day.


Omg like all those feminists who rallied around madonnas quote "I want to bomb the whitehouse"

We r so danm stupud to allow these people to run a danm rally


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## ABC123DEF

Well, as crazy as this might sound...that's one of the benefits of living in the US. We are all given the freedom to express...no matter how we may be perceived by others. That's one of the risks you take by taking advantage of that freedom!


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## Gung-Ho

Jermin8r89 said:


> Omg like all those feminists who rallied around madonnas quote "I want to bomb the whitehouse"
> 
> We r so danm stupud to allow these people to run a danm rally


Could you imagine the cataclysmic uproar that would have erupted if anyone of similar recognizability of Madonna had suggested bombing the White House when Obama was first elected.

Liberal Dems are the new Nazis they are just to blind to see it themselves. They're all about diversity and free thinking as long as you think exactly like them.. Pompous arrogant ignorant obnoxious A-holes.


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## Jesusdrivesuber

Finally they are starting to figure out a way to get it "out there" without pushing it into full tard mode, people are scientifically irresponsible these days.

Now, a decade or 2 and we can talk about self driving cars.

If people weren't speaking about self driving cars being impossible at this point in time, it is because they were either working for such companies or have recently hit the brick wall any person with minor understanding of AI vs factors concluded ages ago, these things are barely in a pre-alpha stage with a development cycle of multiple decades, this methodology has been adopted by everyone and his mother over at silicon valley, release beta software and make it gold after 2 years of release, have the user play incomplete buggy crap while paying for it, to think toying with human lives in this case would put an end to those practices, heh.


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## RamzFanz

WeirdBob said:


> Please read the quote again. He said it will take decades before a significant portion of the US car fleet is functioning at Level 4 and above, not that there won't be any on the road. There are human and economic as well as technical factors involved in the widespread adoption of SDC technology.


We've had this discussion.

This is NOT an effort to get an SDC in every garage.

The FIRST areas taken over will be SDC TNC's in urban areas, the majority of our work. They do not need to be the majority of vehicles or be able to go anywhere to kill the ridesharing gig.


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## RamzFanz

ABC123DEF said:


> Some people are in such a rush for tech and robots to do all of our thinking, driving, walking, and working in general. We are becoming more brainwashed, asocial, and dumbed-down each day.


Said the person who was against them computer contraptions.


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## RamzFanz

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> Finally they are starting to figure out a way to get it "out there" without pushing it into full tard mode, people are scientifically irresponsible these days.
> 
> Now, a decade or 2 and we can talk about self driving cars.
> 
> If people weren't speaking about self driving cars being impossible at this point in time, it is because they were either working for such companies or have recently hit the brick wall any person with minor understanding of AI vs factors concluded ages ago, these things are barely in a pre-alpha stage with a development cycle of multiple decades, this methodology has been adopted by everyone and his mother over at silicon valley, release beta software and make it gold after 2 years of release, have the user play incomplete buggy crap while paying for it, to think toying with human lives in this case would put an end to those practices, heh.


Really really off the mark.






2-3 years for introduction and another year or two to take over most SDC TNC rides. No one in this race cares about personal car ownership of SDCs except perhaps Tesla who wants people to fund its SDC TNC fleet through personal ownership.

Tesla's with auto pilot have 40% less crashes already. Is that what you mean by "toying with human lives?"


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## ABC123DEF

RamzFanz said:


> Said the person who was against them computer contraptions.


What exactly is YOUR point? I'm simply saying this from an observer's point of view.


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## RamzFanz

ABC123DEF said:


> What exactly is YOUR point? I'm simply saying this from an observer's point of view.


Well, let's revisit what you said:



ABC123DEF said:


> Some people are in such a rush for tech and robots to do all of our thinking, driving, walking, and working in general. We are becoming more brainwashed, asocial, and dumbed-down each day.


Then what I said:



RamzFanz said:


> Said the person who was against them computer contraptions.


My point is that I'm old enough to have been through many technology revolutions and we haven't abandoned thinking, driving, walking, or working in general. We have done the opposite.


Before computers, and I lived it, people were far less knowledgeable and skilled in general. If you weren't there, you probably won't grasp the general ignorance and lack of deep thought that comes without wide access to knowledge. We most certainly think more now. We have to and we have access to what, in a very recent time, was only accessible in difficult to acquire books or hoarded knowledge in paid institutions.
We drive more now than ever. When we don't have to drive, we will think more. See the above point. Thinking leads to creative ideas and learning.
Walking? I have to give that to you because when I was young, we walked from necessity, not as a recreation. I walked 5-6 miles just to see a friend. But now I see people walking, walking dogs, treadmilling, and doing all kinds of physical recreation they wouldn't have had the time or energy to do before. Few biked distances for pleasure when I was young, they biked to get somewhere. The point being, do you want to exercise for food and transportation or choose what gives you pleasure? Lifting bundles at a dock for exercise or ride through a forest, hike, or rock climb?
Working is innate in our makeup. Perhaps we are trading physical work for intelligent work at some level, but we are reaching towards work for pleasure and additional treasure rather than working for food which enslaved us.
This leap in technology that reduces or eliminates the need for "labor" and "working" isn't going to become a welfare state. It's going to give us our next level in evolution. Where all people can pursue what they are good at and enjoy, rather than what puts bread on the table. How many slaves in antiquity lived and died with talents that were wasted away in labor? How many people today will live and die with talents that are wasted away because they have to grind out a living for their families?

The modern history of _labor to the bone for food and sustainable life_ system is not natural and not healthy. We will all blossom when we remove the yoke. Primitive societies were much happier, because nature provided for them. They weren't lazy. Now, technology will provide basic needs. Think about it historically.


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## ABC123DEF

RamzFanz said:


> Well, let's revisit what you said:
> 
> Then what I said:
> 
> My point is that I'm old enough to have been through many technology revolutions and we haven't abandoned thinking, driving, walking, or working in general. We have done the opposite.
> 
> 
> Before computers, and I lived it, people were far less knowledgeable and skilled in general. If you weren't there, you probably won't grasp the general ignorance and lack of deep thought that comes without wide access to knowledge. We most certainly think more now. We have to and we have access to what, in a very recent time, was only accessible in difficult to acquire books or hoarded knowledge in paid institutions.
> We drive more now than ever. When we don't have to drive, we will think more. See the above point. Thinking leads to creative ideas and learning.
> Walking? I have to give that to you because when I was young, we walked from necessity, not as a recreation. I walked 5-6 miles just to see a friend. But now I see people walking, walking dogs, treadmilling, and doing all kinds of physical recreation they wouldn't have had the time or energy to do before. Few biked distances for pleasure when I was young, they biked to get somewhere. The point being, do you want to exercise for food and transportation or choose what gives you pleasure? Lifting bundles at a dock for exercise or ride through a forest, hike, or rock climb?
> Working is innate in our makeup. Perhaps we are trading physical work for intelligent work at some level, but we are reaching towards work for pleasure and additional treasure rather than working for food which enslaved us.
> This leap in technology that reduces or eliminates the need for "labor" and "working" isn't going to become a welfare state. It's going to give us our next level in evolution. Where all people can pursue what they are good at and enjoy, rather than what puts bread on the table. How many slaves in antiquity lived and died with talents that were wasted away in labor? How many people today will live and die with talents that are wasted away because they have to grind out a living for their families?
> 
> The modern history of _labor to the bone for food and sustainable life_ system is not natural and not healthy. We will all blossom when we remove the yoke. Primitive societies were much happier, because nature provided for them. They weren't lazy. Now, technology will provide basic needs. Think about it historically.


I'm nowhere near as young as you might think...late 40's to be exact. However, I come from a family of farm workers, laborers, and military -- so my thinking and experiences may be "old school" and I have a bit of an old soul. However, I find that the more technology takes over and the more we're bombarded with gadgets...the LESS free time I/we actually have and the more distanced we are from other people. I still say that people are becoming lazier in general. Just my take.


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## tohunt4me

ABC123DEF said:


> Some people are in such a rush for tech and robots to do all of our thinking, driving, walking, and working in general. We are becoming more brainwashed, asocial, and dumbed-down each day.


They will be running the world within 1/2 century.


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## ABC123DEF

tohunt4me said:


> They will be running the world within 1/2 century.


Pretty much.


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## tohunt4me

RamzFanz said:


> Well, let's revisit what you said:
> 
> Then what I said:
> 
> My point is that I'm old enough to have been through many technology revolutions and we haven't abandoned thinking, driving, walking, or working in general. We have done the opposite.
> 
> 
> Before computers, and I lived it, people were far less knowledgeable and skilled in general. If you weren't there, you probably won't grasp the general ignorance and lack of deep thought that comes without wide access to knowledge. We most certainly think more now. We have to and we have access to what, in a very recent time, was only accessible in difficult to acquire books or hoarded knowledge in paid institutions.
> We drive more now than ever. When we don't have to drive, we will think more. See the above point. Thinking leads to creative ideas and learning.
> Walking? I have to give that to you because when I was young, we walked from necessity, not as a recreation. I walked 5-6 miles just to see a friend. But now I see people walking, walking dogs, treadmilling, and doing all kinds of physical recreation they wouldn't have had the time or energy to do before. Few biked distances for pleasure when I was young, they biked to get somewhere. The point being, do you want to exercise for food and transportation or choose what gives you pleasure? Lifting bundles at a dock for exercise or ride through a forest, hike, or rock climb?
> Working is innate in our makeup. Perhaps we are trading physical work for intelligent work at some level, but we are reaching towards work for pleasure and additional treasure rather than working for food which enslaved us.
> This leap in technology that reduces or eliminates the need for "labor" and "working" isn't going to become a welfare state. It's going to give us our next level in evolution. Where all people can pursue what they are good at and enjoy, rather than what puts bread on the table. How many slaves in antiquity lived and died with talents that were wasted away in labor? How many people today will live and die with talents that are wasted away because they have to grind out a living for their families?
> 
> The modern history of _labor to the bone for food and sustainable life_ system is not natural and not healthy. We will all blossom when we remove the yoke. Primitive societies were much happier, because nature provided for them. They weren't lazy. Now, technology will provide basic needs. Think about it historically.


Machines & Robots will create recreational paradise for displaced workers !
Just as the Automobile created a life of luxury for the horse !
NO. THEY WERE ELIMINATED WHEN NO LONGER NEEDED !
ELIMINATED !
Off to the Glue Factory for you !


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## tohunt4me

Jermin8r89 said:


> Its obvious they doing good. Its technoligy its not a human. Computers r better then humans fact to it. All they do is get better reason y its called "Artifical Technoligy"


A computer has no soul.
Make them self aware,and they will want one.


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## tohunt4me

WeirdBob said:


> Please read the quote again. He said it will take decades before a significant portion of the US car fleet is functioning at Level 4 and above, not that there won't be any on the road. There are human and economic as well as technical factors involved in the widespread adoption of SDC technology.


One good solar flare.
Kiss it all goodbye.
Better learn to plow behind a mule !
The Amish will teach you for free labor.


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## tohunt4me

Gung-Ho said:


> Could you imagine the cataclysmic uproar that would have erupted if anyone of similar recognizability of Madonna had suggested bombing the White House when Obama was first elected.
> 
> Liberal Dems are the new Nazis they are just to blind to see it themselves. They're all about diversity and free thinking as long as you think exactly like them.. Pompous arrogant ignorant obnoxious A-holes.


The world tires of these exhibits.
Weekly constant protests diminish any regard for any cause they may have. Self erosion of all credibility.
Public meltdown.
Let us reflect on the parable of " the Boy Who Cried Wolf".


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## RamzFanz

ABC123DEF said:


> I'm nowhere near as young as you might think...late 40's to be exact. However, I come from a family of farm workers, laborers, and military -- so my thinking and experiences may be "old school" and I have a bit of an old soul. However, I find that the more technology takes over and the more we're bombarded with gadgets...the LESS free time I/we actually have and the more distanced we are from other people. I still say that people are becoming lazier in general. Just my take.


I'm of the same thinking, I'm from farm stock, personal military service, and most of my family didn't make it above labor. Except I accept that different ways of connecting doesn't mean not connecting. When I was young, people rarely connected, and I could have never connected with people with differing opinions in a wide open field like we are. We had forced relationships because of proximity. Our friends were only those within biking distance, and later, when older, within our town. Correspondence was days away, not seconds. I like this better.

Lazier or more productive? I can do more in an hour now than I could have in a day in my youth. Not talking farm work, I'm talking about relevant work. Farmers are all but obsolete, love them or not.


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## Jesusdrivesuber

RamzFanz said:


> Really really off the mark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2-3 years for introduction and another year or two to take over most SDC TNC rides. No one in this race cares about personal car ownership of SDCs except perhaps Tesla who wants people to fund its SDC TNC fleet through personal ownership.
> 
> Tesla's with auto pilot have 40% less crashes already. Is that what you mean by "toying with human lives?"


An autopilot is not self driving, releasing self driving in less than a decade is scientifically irresponsible which led to me saying "toying with human lives".


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## RamzFanz

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> An autopilot is not self driving, releasing self driving in less than a decade is scientifically irresponsible which led to me saying "toying with human lives".


Again, how is saving human lives toying with them?


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## Jermin8r89

RamzFanz said:


> Again, how is saving human lives toying with them?


Its takeing jobs away. Just hearing houseing insurance is going way up in new york where alot of taxi drivers r.

I remembered u saying that cost of liveing will go down but y does it keep comeing up?


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## Jagent

There is a big difference between autopilot, self driving, and rideshare capable self driving. Think about it. ..

Getting in a robot car at a place similar to an airport and having it haul you to the next airport is relatively easy. A robot car negotiating city traffic, a bar crowd, and finding the correct drunk to haul home is fairly complicated. 

Think about every problem situation you face driving Uber. No parking zones, drunk pax, google map errors, improper pin location. Each time a pax has called or texted you represents a huge problem for self driving cars. Each time you've had to contact Uber, be it puke in the car or aggressive pax, represents trouble for SDC technology. 

Are we 3 years from a car that let's you sleep on the highway? Yes. Are we 3 years from self driving Ubers? Not by a long shot.


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## Jermin8r89

Jagent said:


> There is a big difference between autopilot, self driving, and rideshare capable self driving. Think about it. ..
> 
> Getting in a robot car at a place similar to an airport and having it haul you to the next airport is relatively easy. A robot car negotiating city traffic, a bar crowd, and finding the correct drunk to haul home is fairly complicated.
> 
> Think about every problem situation you face driving Uber. No parking zones, drunk pax, google map errors, improper pin location. Each time a pax has called or texted you represents a huge problem for self driving cars. Each time you've had to contact Uber, be it puke in the car or aggressive pax, represents trouble for SDC technology.
> 
> Are we 3 years from a car that let's you sleep on the highway? Yes. Are we 3 years from self driving Ubers? Not by a long shot.


Thats pretty true. 3 years from a car driveing u well u rest. In great conditons.
We gonna have to be pilots still for decades to come


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## Jermin8r89

If u ever seen the show incorporated its done in 2070s and they got SDCs but they still own them


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## RamzFanz

Jermin8r89 said:


> Its takeing jobs away. Just hearing houseing insurance is going way up in new york where alot of taxi drivers r.
> 
> I remembered u saying that cost of liveing will go down but y does it keep comeing up?


The cost of living will go down when we have self driving trucks and cars.


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## RamzFanz

Jagent said:


> There is a big difference between autopilot, self driving, and rideshare capable self driving. Think about it. ..
> 
> Getting in a robot car at a place similar to an airport and having it haul you to the next airport is relatively easy. A robot car negotiating city traffic, a bar crowd, and finding the correct drunk to haul home is fairly complicated.
> 
> Think about every problem situation you face driving Uber. No parking zones, drunk pax, google map errors, improper pin location. Each time a pax has called or texted you represents a huge problem for self driving cars. Each time you've had to contact Uber, be it puke in the car or aggressive pax, represents trouble for SDC technology.
> 
> Are we 3 years from a car that let's you sleep on the highway? Yes. Are we 3 years from self driving Ubers? Not by a long shot.


None of these issues are unsolvable.


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## Jagent

RamzFanz said:


> None of these issues are unsolvable.


Really?

1. Pax number 1 pukes all over the seat, then gets dropped off. Pax number 2 gets in? Then what?

2. Its snowing like mad, pax lives up a steep hill. The shortest route is up an impassable steep hill, but you can drive a little further and come a less steep, plowed road.

3. Google maps drops the pin one street over on the other side of a creek.

4. Police are directing traffic. No stopping. 1000s of pedestrians streaming into the road after a game lets out. One way street and must pick up pax on the move, or when pedestrians force a stop.

Four, real life situations encountered in the past month by a very part time driver. Four situations where SDCs totally fail. Solvable? Sure. ..and so are flying cars and living on the moon.


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## Jermin8r89

Coutry of a whole would take years for this grid to work. Also i think war will break out first


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## RamzFanz

Jagent said:


> Really?
> 
> 1. Pax number 1 pukes all over the seat, then gets dropped off. Pax number 2 gets in? Then what?


Let's take them one at a time. Puke can easily be detected by the internal cameras as can all messes.

If it is, it is sent for a cleaning and a fee is applied, same as now.

If it's not, you require the next passangers to sign off that the car is clean. If it's not, it goes to get cleaned and a fee is applied.

Keeping in mind that puking is a relatively rare event. Even if there were no answer, it wouldn't be meaningful.

Not unsolvable, yes?


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## Jagent

RamzFanz said:


> Let's take them one at a time. Puke can easily be detected by the internal cameras as can all messes.
> 
> If it is, it is sent for a cleaning and a fee is applied, same as now.
> 
> If it's not, you require the next passangers to sign off that the car is clean. If it's not, it goes to get cleaned and a fee is applied.
> 
> Keeping in mind that puking is a relatively rare event. Even if there were no answer, it wouldn't be meaningful.
> 
> Not unsolvable, yes?


So, not only do we need a gigantic parking lot for millions of SDCs, we also need to hire people full time to clean puke, check oil, change oil, check tires, change tires, inspect, wash..... and, if you are correct, watch video from cams inside the millions of cars. ... because I would guess in every city, at least 10 cars get puked in per night, or a drink spilled, or dog crap from shoes.

Is it possible? I suppose. Probable or profitable? You tell me. SDCs sound great until you look around. Look at the millions of cars, dealerships, driveways, gas stations, car washes, parts stores, repair shops, parking garages, parking lots ... it all represents storage and labor.

Driving is one small component of auto ownership. You remove ownership and drivers, you have just inherited tons of labor and storage. This is not even factoring in service like Uber.


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## RamzFanz

Jagent said:


> So, not only do we need a gigantic parking lot for millions of SDCs, we also need to hire someone full time to clean puke, check oil, change oil, check tires, change tires, inspect, wash..... and, if you are correct, watch video from cams inside the millions of cars. ... because I would guess in every city, at least 10 cars get puked in per night, or a drink spilled, or dog crap from shoes.
> 
> Is it possible? I suppose. Probable or profitable? You tell me


It seems to me cars would redistribute out to suburbs in the evening for morning commutes. They certainly won't need millions of of cars. I would think fleets would be sized for regular use with weekends and events supplemented by privately owned cars.

People wouldn't monitor the cams, why would they?

The initial TNC SDCs will probably be electric meaning very little maintenance or repairs.

The cleaning of the cars could also be easily automated. Slide the interior out to go into a auto-wash, slide a new one in, back on the road.

2. The car uses the passable route. Why wouldn't it? Also, when it discovers the first route is inpassable, every other SDC in the area could know instantly and reroute.


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## Jermin8r89

RamzFanz said:


> It seems to me cars would redistribute out to suburbs in the evening for morning commutes. They certainly won't need millions of of cars. I would think fleets would be sized for regular use with weekends and events supplemented by privately owned cars.
> 
> People wouldn't monitor the cams, why would they?
> 
> The initial TNC SDCs will probably be electric meaning very little maintenance or repairs.
> 
> The cleaning of the cars could also be easily automated. Slide the interior out to go into a auto-wash, slide a new one in, back on the road.
> 
> 2. The car uses the passable route. Why wouldn't it? Also, when it discovers the first route is inpassable, every other SDC in the area could know instantly and reroute.


Theres too much godanm BS with SDVs. We haveing issues with self check outs already cuz if u got alot of stuff its a pain in the ass. U cant just slide it threw and bag it or not bag it. It asks and sometimes if u go against it too much it freezes. Then if u got fruits or veggies u need assistance. I barely use self check out unless i only got a few boxed items.

Also when u got health inssurance questions i dont want a robot to tell me go here there stick gun in my mouth and kill myself cuz thats how i feel when i get a robot who awnsers nothing!

Uber is perfect now they shouldnt do SD. U can use ur phone to summon a taxi thats cheaper and normal humanbeings r better to talk tp then taxi drivers. We have had this new age taxi for less then 10 years. If they smart let this go on for atleast another 10 years. Its like the new shifters they have that have killed someone thats electronical. Nothing was wrong with the old shifter. Sometimes just leave things alone


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## Jermin8r89

I gotta add something else. From mine just above here. How bout istead of going to mars we go to the moon? Its be easier and cheaper. U might have to do more work to make moon sustainable but cuz its way closer alot of things about going far away would be a mission just in itself. So when it comes to makeing life on moon itd be smarter. 

So wich brings me to my next point what if automakers instead were makeing spaceships instead of this self driveing BS. Imagine the pay out if u the first! Then u make taxi services to the moon. As maybe instead of just liveing there u can have like a year there a year off. Instead of mars1 haveing it to where u liveing at mars for rest of life. I bet there would be tons of energy ifu were to drill into the moon. These auto agencies would make so.... Much money. 

With there way to have self driveing its gonna take away jobs,they gonna still own all there vehicals so they got more resposability and i dont think they would actually earn money but they would save as they own transportation sector. So saveing if they would own it u would think they would make mass amount of money nope. They would have to make charge taxi servie at really cheap rates as id also think alot of other things would get automated. They wouldnt be discovering anything and makeing big bucks all they would do is take out workers and "save money".

Id even agree for them to make cars that would be submarine or like a boat. Then e pand liveing into the ocean. 

Autonimous has nothing good for us people but to control us.


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## RamzFanz

Jermin8r89 said:


> So wich brings me to my next point what if automakers instead were makeing spaceships instead of this self driveing BS.


Instead? How about both:


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## d0n

RamzFanz said:


> Again, how is saving human lives toying with them?


Son, releasing self driving within a few years is madness, incomplete madness to be precise.

You are therefore: "toying with human lives".

Selfdriving =/= autopilot.

Savvy?


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## RamzFanz

d0n said:


> Son, releasing self driving within a few years is madness, incomplete madness to be precise.
> 
> You are therefore: "toying with human lives".
> 
> Selfdriving =/= autopilot.
> 
> Savvy?


Again, how is saving human lives toying with them?


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## d0n

RamzFanz said:


> Again, how is saving human lives toying with them?


That's not what I meant, champ.

When you throw science-to-commercial use that isn't ready and could cost human lives, you toy with them.

http://www.businessinsider.com/waym...f-driving-car-accident-reports-website-2017-1

Even the pinnacle of self driving hides the truth and why? it isn't ready and will not be for a while.


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## RamzFanz

d0n said:


> That's not what I meant, champ.
> 
> When you throw science-to-commercial use that isn't ready and could cost human lives, you toy with them.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/waym...f-driving-car-accident-reports-website-2017-1
> 
> Even the pinnacle of self driving hides the truth and why? it isn't ready and will not be for a while.


I'm lost, so you're saying Waymo not being public in the largest race of our generation is wrong? Despite that they will have to prove their technology before it's allowed on the open road?

Comeondude.

Less lives taken is less lives taken. 3,000,000 people a year are injured in car accidents, 2,000,000 permanently, should we not improve on that?

Or do jobs now trump lives and devastation?


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## d0n

RamzFanz said:


> I'm lost, so you're saying Waymo not being public in the largest race of our generation is wrong? Despite that they will have to prove their technology before it's allowed on the open road?
> 
> Comeondude.
> 
> Less lives taken is less lives taken. 3,000,000 people a year are injured in car accidents, 2,000,000 permanently, should we not approve on that?
> 
> Or do jobs now trump lives and devastation?


I understand your point of view, you are saying self driving will stop drunk/drugged drivers or extremely incompetent drivers from causing accidents, the point I am trying to make is that computerized driving is still a danger, it's a whole new set of problems that overlap drunk/drugged/incompetent drivers, they stopped showing it because they do not want you to start building numbers based on their driving, to top that... who is responsible for a pax dead in it? You need trust built into it in, when a person gets everyone killed in an accident he gets defended by the company and if found guilty that person goes to jail, with a machine, who goes to jail? the engineer?

Let's not even mention settlements ala airplane crash, the corporation is 100% involved because the pilot didn't survive, the piece of the pie anyone would take is based on the company's worth, what happened to american airlines after so many crashes and September 11? They almost lost their company.

No and I don't mean to say it from the "omg machines will replace us" side, no because any corporation involved in this is going to get destroyed in court, it's that simple, make it better before you launch it.


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## RamzFanz

Are we accepting that SDCs will be safer?


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## RamzFanz

d0n said:


> when a person gets everyone killed in an accident he gets defended by the company and if found guilty that person goes to jail, with a machine, who goes to jail? the engineer?


The person is only criminally charged if they were negligent (like drunk or reckless) or acted with malice (intentional).

I don't understand why people think that's somehow changing. A criminal charge against an engineer or company would still need negligence or malice.

A civil suit would also require the victim to show the company was negligent. That they _knew_ the product was defective in a manner that would cause injury or death or reasonably should have known and didn't act. The standard is lower, preponderance of the evidence, but you would still need evidence they knowingly acted inappropriately.



d0n said:


> Let's not even mention settlements ala airplane crash, the corporation is 100% involved because the pilot didn't survive, the piece of the pie anyone would take is based on the company's worth, what happened to american airlines after so many crashes and September 11? They almost lost their company.


Planes crash every year and we still have airlines. Obviously, the well established laws and precedents in place allow for error. It's also very difficult and expensive to win a civil court case. Most are settled without admission of guilt because it's cheaper for the defendant and insurance typically pays the settlement.

The award is not based on a company's worth. There are well established guidelines for awards. Runaway juries that hand out unprecedented awards are typically reversed on appeal.

AA, United, and others suffered after 9/11 because of stock prices, not lawsuits.



d0n said:


> No and I don't mean to say it from the "omg machines will replace us" side, no because any corporation involved in this is going to get destroyed in court, it's that simple, make it better before you launch it.


That's not at all what history reflects.


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## Michael - Cleveland

ABC123DEF said:


> that's one of the benefits of living in the US. We are all given the freedom to express...


[ w a r n i n g : completely off-topic and irrelevant content follows]
We're not "all given" that freedom... we are all endowed with that freedom
and the government may not interfere with that freedom:
The US "holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights..." [and] "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press."


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## Jermin8r89

RamzFanz said:


> Are we accepting that SDCs will be safer?


Nope. Their an endangerment to the human race. Machienes used to accompany us but now we accompany them.

You drop this stuff onto the people in 1800 they will laugh at you. They would say we came to america to be free not to be trap to the same coorporations we complained about left for better things


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## RamzFanz

Jermin8r89 said:


> Nope. Their an endangerment to the human race. Machienes used to accompany us but now we accompany them.
> 
> You drop this stuff onto the people in 1800 they will laugh at you. They would say we came to america to be free not to be trap to the same coorporations we complained about left for better things


So you have no real reason to believe they won't be safer?



Michael - Cleveland said:


> [ w a r n i n g : completely off-topic and irrelevant content follows]
> We're not "all given" that freedom... we are all endowed with that freedom
> and the government may not interfere with that freedom:
> The US "holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights..." [and] "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press."


It's an interesting argument. As with all rights though, one person's end where another's begin so you can indeed be criminally and civilly punished for words.


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## Fuzzyelvis

RamzFanz said:


> Article is here.
> 
> Tesla's crash rate dropped 40 percent after the electric carmaker installed its semi-autonomous Autopilot software, government regulators reported today.
> 
> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration just released its report on the May 2016 fatal accident involving a Tesla Model S. Within the document, the government reports that the number of crashes dropped dramatically after Tesla introduced Autopilot in 2015, a fact that would seem to bolster the company's claims about the safety of semi-autonomous features in its vehicles.
> 
> 
> Follow
> Elon Musk
> 
> ✔@elonmusk
> Report highlight: "The data show that the Tesla vehicles crash rate dropped by almost 40 percent after Autosteer installation."
> 
> 11:10 AM - 19 Jan 2017
> 
> 2,7142,714 Retweets
> 10,24610,246 likes
> 
> NHTSA analyzed all mileage and airbag deployment data supplied by Tesla for all 2014 through 2016 Model S and 2016 Model X vehicles equipped with Autopilot. The data show that the Tesla vehicles crash rate dropped by almost 40 percent after Autosteer installation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NHTSA
> The government concluded that while advanced driver assist systems (ADAS) like Autopilot may help in reducing auto accidents, they should not supplement or replace a driver's attention to the road. "While ADAS technologies are continually improving in performance in larger percentages of crash types, a driver should never wait for automatic braking to occur when a collision threat is perceived," the NHTSA said.


Statistics rarely tell the whole story. Could be that people who buy a Tesla in the first place are likely to be horrible, dangerous drivers and thus any help is an improvement.

Maybe the drivers that bought the cars with artiste we tended to be more careful in the first place.

Could be the cars tended to oversteer and the auto steer just corrected that.

What are the stats on other vehicles and what are the demographics etc. of the drivers?

One number alone tells us very little.



RamzFanz said:


> Well, let's revisit what you said:
> 
> Then what I said:
> 
> My point is that I'm old enough to have been through many technology revolutions and we haven't abandoned thinking, driving, walking, or working in general. We have done the opposite.
> 
> 
> Before computers, and I lived it, people were far less knowledgeable and skilled in general. If you weren't there, you probably won't grasp the general ignorance and lack of deep thought that comes without wide access to knowledge. We most certainly think more now. We have to and we have access to what, in a very recent time, was only accessible in difficult to acquire books or hoarded knowledge in paid institutions.
> We drive more now than ever. When we don't have to drive, we will think more. See the above point. Thinking leads to creative ideas and learning.
> Walking? I have to give that to you because when I was young, we walked from necessity, not as a recreation. I walked 5-6 miles just to see a friend. But now I see people walking, walking dogs, treadmilling, and doing all kinds of physical recreation they wouldn't have had the time or energy to do before. Few biked distances for pleasure when I was young, they biked to get somewhere. The point being, do you want to exercise for food and transportation or choose what gives you pleasure? Lifting bundles at a dock for exercise or ride through a forest, hike, or rock climb?
> Working is innate in our makeup. Perhaps we are trading physical work for intelligent work at some level, but we are reaching towards work for pleasure and additional treasure rather than working for food which enslaved us.
> This leap in technology that reduces or eliminates the need for "labor" and "working" isn't going to become a welfare state. It's going to give us our next level in evolution. Where all people can pursue what they are good at and enjoy, rather than what puts bread on the table. How many slaves in antiquity lived and died with talents that were wasted away in labor? How many people today will live and die with talents that are wasted away because they have to grind out a living for their families?
> 
> The modern history of _labor to the bone for food and sustainable life_ system is not natural and not healthy. We will all blossom when we remove the yoke. Primitive societies were much happier, because nature provided for them. They weren't lazy. Now, technology will provide basic needs. Think about it historically.


Not in our present society. Only the rich are benefiting.


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## RamzFanz

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Statistics rarely tell the whole story. Could be that people who buy a Tesla in the first place are likely to be horrible, dangerous drivers and thus any help is an improvement.
> 
> Maybe the drivers that bought the cars with artiste we tended to be more careful in the first place.
> 
> Could be the cars tended to oversteer and the auto steer just corrected that.
> 
> What are the stats on other vehicles and what are the demographics etc. of the drivers?
> 
> One number alone tells us very little.
> 
> Not in our present society. Only the rich are benefiting.


Not so. We all have a way better standard of living today compared to the past.












Fuzzyelvis said:


> Statistics rarely tell the whole story. Could be that people who buy a Tesla in the first place are likely to be horrible, dangerous drivers and thus any help is an improvement.
> 
> Maybe the drivers that bought the cars with artiste we tended to be more careful in the first place.
> 
> Could be the cars tended to oversteer and the auto steer just corrected that.
> 
> What are the stats on other vehicles and what are the demographics etc. of the drivers?
> 
> One number alone tells us very little.


This is all true to some level but 40% is a large percentage and not likely to be skewed very much by demographics IMHO. It could also be skewed in the opposite direction. People who buy advanced technology, early adopters, at a high price, could also have been better drivers to begin with.


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## Michael - Cleveland

RamzFanz said:


> Not so. We all have a way better standard of living today compared to the past.


Not ALL of us...


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## Fuzzyelvis

RamzFanz said:


> This is all true to some level but 40% is a large percentage and not likely to be skewed very much by demographics IMHO. It could also be skewed in the opposite direction. People who buy advanced technology, early adopters, at a high price, could also have been better drivers to begin with.


I said that...



RamzFanz said:


> Not so. We all have a way better standard of living today compared to the past.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


How do you figure that? It used to be one person with even a menial job could support a family. Not common now. Yes we have improved when it comes to certain things, but I'm not sure that having 800 TV channels is actually a better standard of living.

Housing and vehicles have become proportionally more expensive and our income is eaten up by things we now have to have which weren't necessary years ago.

Good luck searching for a job without a cell phone or the Internet. Kids need a computer just to do homework these days. Many "improvements" are just another cost for many families.

My real income has gone down over the last 10 years once you factor in cost of living. My mortgage payment hasn't changed, but the insurance and taxes go up every year.

And that cheap toaster (unlike the old one) will need to be replaced in a year. So even your comparison is not valid.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Statistics rarely tell the whole story. Could be that people who buy a Tesla in the first place are likely to be horrible, dangerous drivers and thus any help is an improvement.


That doesn't matter... the 'sample' is derived from Tesla X drivers and the NHTSA found that _among all Tesla X drivers_, the Tesla Xs with autosteer installed were involved in significantly fewer crashes. That may or may not translate to other manufacturers or drivers of other manufacturers - but it's a pretty good indicator at this point in time, especially considering that neither the public, or the public infrastructure have yet adapted to the new technology... and the SDCs have not yet been optimized to communicate with each other (or the public infrastructure).


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## Fuzzyelvis

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That doesn't matter... the 'sample' is derived from Tesla X drivers and the NHTSA found that _among all Tesla X drivers_, the Tesla Xs with autosteer installed were involved in significantly fewer crashes. That may or may not translate to other manufacturers or drivers of other manufacturers - but it's a pretty good indicator at this point in time, especially considering that neither the public, or the public infrastructure have yet adapted to the new technology... and the SDCs have not yet been optimized to communicate with each other (or the public infrastructure).


My point is that if you start out bad there's more room for improvement. Plus add that to my point that maybe only the best tesla drivers bought the extra auto steer in the first place...

Look, I'm not saying there's nothing there, I'm saying don't take 40% at face value. Once other things are factored in it could be much less.

I'm just pointing out that articles (and companies) often throw out what sound like really important numbers, but they're rarely the entire story and we need to think critically.

A cancer drug that doubles your expected lifespan? Awesome! But if that means 2 days instead of one, and horrible side effects, is it really worth paying 100 times more for it than the old drug?


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## Michael - Cleveland

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Look, I'm not saying there's nothing there, I'm saying don't take 40% at face value.


It's just one number... but it is a significant improvement, not a minor one. It would be silly to think that as the technology heads towards maturity with improvement over time that those results would not improve. I agree, it may or may not be indicative of what other cars/manufacturers/drivers will see... but it's a good indicator of what we're heading towards.


> Once other things are factored in it could be much less.


 Or much higher.


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## RamzFanz

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Not ALL of us...
> 
> View attachment 106139​


True. Jobs have changed.



Fuzzyelvis said:


> I said that...
> 
> How do you figure that? It used to be one person with even a menial job could support a family. Not common now. Yes we have improved when it comes to certain things, but I'm not sure that having 800 TV channels is actually a better standard of living.
> 
> Housing and vehicles have become proportionally more expensive and our income is eaten up by things we now have to have which weren't necessary years ago.
> 
> Good luck searching for a job without a cell phone or the Internet. Kids need a computer just to do homework these days. Many "improvements" are just another cost for many families.
> 
> My real income has gone down over the last 10 years once you factor in cost of living. My mortgage payment hasn't changed, but the insurance and taxes go up every year.
> 
> And that cheap toaster (unlike the old one) will need to be replaced in a year. So even your comparison is not valid.


In fairness, the past 10 years have been pretty rough economically.

I agree, we spend on different things now but even many of those different things are going down. My first PCs cost thousands in today's dollars. Today they are hundreds.


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