# Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees



## KevinH (Jul 13, 2014)

https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-says...ose-work-if-theyre-reclassified-as-employees/
*Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees*
*Not all economists agree.*

Dara Kerr
http://www.twitter.com/darakerr
May 28, 2020 9:44 a.m. PT









Uber said it would limit the number of its drivers in California if it has to classify them as employees.
Angela Lang/CNET

Uber has been crunching data, and it's come up with an internal analysis on what would happen if it reclassified its California drivers as employees. According to the company, passengers could expect to see prices go up 20% to 120%, and tens of thousands of drivers might be out of work.
Of Uber's 209,000 drivers in the state, the company said, 76% could lose their jobs on the ride-hailing platform. Rural areas would be hit hardest by these cutbacks, Uber said.
"Shifting to an employment model would force us to limit the number of people who could drive on Uber in order to manage costs that are fixed per employee," the company said.

Most economists agree the system would change if drivers were to become employees. But some say numbers like these need more context. For example, rural areas already have minimal coverage by Uber and some drivers only work a few hours a week. If drivers were employees, the platform would run more efficiently, said Michael Reich, co-chair of the Center on Wage and Employment Dynamics at the University of California at Berkeley.
"Some drivers who work more than 40 hours per week will reduce their hours," Reich said. "Many who drive less than 40 hours per week are likely to increase their hours."
Uber's new analysis comes as the debate over gig worker classification in California heats up. Currently, most gig economy companies classify their workers as independent contractors, rather than employees. That means the companies aren't responsible for benefits like health insurance, sick leave and minimum wage. California passed a law last fall mandating that gig workers be classified as employees. The law, AB 5, went into effect on Jan. 1

*SEE ALSO*

Uber and Lyft drivers could become employees with this law: 10 things to know
Uber, Lyft, DoorDash's gig worker ballot initiative heads to voters in November
Uber vs. Lyft: We compare the two ride-hailing apps
Instead of making their workers employees, Uber, Lyft, DoorDash, Instacart and Postmates spent $110 million to sponsor a ballot measure that could exempt them from AB 5. The measure proposes keeping drivers as independent contractors, while adding benefits like an "earnings guarantee." Last Friday, the measure officially qualified for the November election.

The issue is bound to get even more charged as the election nears. Several politicians, like Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris, have backed AB 5. On Tuesday, Democratic presidential hopeful Joe Biden weighed in, saying on Twitter that "gig economy giants are trying to gut the law and exempt their workers. It's unacceptable. I urge Californians to vote no on the initiative this November."










Uber's estimates on how much the price of a ride will increase by city if drivers are reclassified as employees.

Uber
Uber's internal analysis is based on numbers from before the novel coronavirus pandemic hit at the beginning of March. A company spokesman said newer data would likely show even higher prices and more job losses. 
In its analysis, Uber said rural areas would see higher price increases than cities. For example, San Francisco would have a 20% to 30% price increase and the Central Valley would see a 110% to 120% increase. So, in San Francisco, a $10 trip today would be $12 and in the Central Valley could get as high as $22.

Uber said the higher prices would lower rider demand, meaning fewer trips and fewer work opportunities for drivers. Uber's analysis only takes into account having full-time drivers on the platform working 40-hour work weeks.

Uber's conclusion is less drastic than a report published two weeks ago by the Berkeley Research Group, which said 80% to 90% of gig worker jobs would likely be eliminated if independent contractors were reclassified as employees.
Reich, who's authored several reports on gig workers and employment status, is conducting a similar study using California data. He said ride fares would likely increase if drivers become employees, but not by as much as Uber estimates. He believes they'll rise between 5% and 15%, which would mean passenger demand would fall around 3
%. 








Watch this: Uber, Lyft drivers in CA closer to employment, AppleCare...
1:17

Reich pointed to New York City as an example for what could happen in California if drivers were to become employees. In 2018, New York instituted a minimum wage for drivers and since then drivers have seen higher wages and the city expects the measure will also ease traffic congestion.
"Uber and Lyft currently use their drivers inefficiently, as they carry passengers only about half of driver app time," Reich said. "Under AB5, efficiency would increase, resulting in more pay for drivers, less traffic on the streets and less air pollution. Traffic speeds would increase, making rides for passengers shorter."


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. :smiles:Her first name is Dara


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Kinda what I've been saying AB5 is not honey and rainbows for drivers. Anybody who has been an employee for any length of time would know that. 
Come November AB5 is toast. Because the needs of the many out weight the needs of the one (or the few). Spock said that, so must be true....


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

Didn’t Elon Musk get a tweet from Ms. AB5😄


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

KevinH said:


> Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees


And that figure is per every square mile.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

My feeling is that once you're made into employees, you might as well just drive for a taxi company and benefit from increased fares and tips, and not having to do your own maintenance. 

The flexible schedule is the only benefit to the rideshare gig and it will go away.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

Trafficat said:


> My feeling is that once you're made into employees, you might as well just drive for a taxi company and benefit from increased fares and tips, and not having to do your own maintenance.
> 
> The flexible schedule is the only benefit to the rideshare gig and it will go away.


Yes if you are an employee Uber will tell you when ,where, how long . Days and hours you can work . Good luck hope it never comes to where I'm from


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

KevinH said:


> https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-says...ose-work-if-theyre-reclassified-as-employees/
> *Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees*
> *Not all economists agree.*
> 
> ...


Due
To

FALSE ACCUSATIONS !!!???


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## Lee239 (Mar 24, 2017)

Good, Uber will lose.


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## SpinalCabbage (Feb 5, 2020)

I view this as a good thing. There are way too many drivers as it is.


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## 197438 (Mar 7, 2020)

I support any measure that weakens AB5. That law was a gift to the unions and hurts independent consultants. I am now operating no differently than I did pre-AB5 but had to incorporate to get around it. That only cost me money in state fees/taxes and insurance, which I now pass on to my clients in higher billing rates.


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## mods1964 (Jan 18, 2017)

Plenty of ride share companys all over the world have employed drivers, they work when they like for as long as they like, they just take less commission 20% from driver use 5% to cover vacation and sick pay, admin, and are left with a 15% profit on every ride,, the less commission payed by the driver means the drivers earnings are well above minimum wage,, a couple of rules driver must take 80%, of rides offered, sitting in a quiet area for more than 1 hour, driver expect to move to a chosen pre designated busy area,, vacation pay is worked out on a per hour rate with upper limit of vacation days per year,, sickness will be payable by uber to a comprehensive insurance scheme!

Note above minimum wage after drivers expenses of a average sized family car suitable for ride share, a predetermined expense rate per mile to average earnings per mile


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

mods1964 said:


> Plenty of ride share companys all over the world have employed drivers, they work when they like for as long as they like, they just take less commission 20% from driver use 5% to cover vacation and sick pay, admin, and are left with a 15% profit on every ride,, the less commission payed by the driver means the drivers earnings are well above minimum wage,, a couple of rules driver must take 80%, of rides offered, sitting in a quiet area for more than 1 hour, driver expect to move to a chosen pre designated busy area,, vacation pay is worked out on a per hour rate with upper limit of vacation days per year,, sickness will be payable by uber to a comprehensive insurance scheme!
> 
> Note above minimum wage after drivers expenses of a average sized family car suitable for ride share, a predetermined expense rate per mile to average earnings per mile


Good luck if you think what you just said will work. what companies and where are they that you say are doing this


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

SHalester said:


> Kinda what I've been saying AB5 is not honey and rainbows for drivers. Anybody who has been an employee for any length of time would know that.
> Come November AB5 is toast. Because the needs of the many out weight the needs of the one (or the few). Spock said that, so must be true....


Those who are preaching for AB5 and becoming employee's will be shocked when Uber/Lyft gets rid of the massive driver bloat they have right now and find themselves on the permanent chopping block.

Now more than ever for you ants who totally rely on Uber and/or Lyft you better start looking in to other fields of work.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

KevinH said:


> https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-says...ose-work-if-theyre-reclassified-as-employees/
> *Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees*
> *Not all economists agree.*
> 
> ...


Uber's numbers seem entirely possible.


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## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

KevinH said:


> https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-says...ose-work-if-theyre-reclassified-as-employees/
> *Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees*
> *Not all economists agree.*
> 
> ...


Just Uber scare tactics. They'll still need to service the demand even if the prices go up. The 20 to 120% increase they're estimating is not that much. It's still lower than hailing a cab and people are still going to use the service. But they may have to thin the herd anyway due to less demand from Covid whether AB5 goes through or not. I wonder if the drivers they let go will UI benefits?


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

REX HAVOC said:


> I wonder if the drivers they let go will UI benefits?


betcha most do once the $600 ends and right this second that is 7/31.


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## 197438 (Mar 7, 2020)

Read yesterday that Alphabet is canceling "offers" to most of its "contractors" who account for more than half its workforce. That will not show up as job losses in the government data. THAT is where the abuse is taking place, but nobody wants to talk about Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Salesforce, and the other mega-corporate abusers of labor. Just whiny Uber and Lyft drivers who are better off being contractors. I suspect many of the drivers not taking rides today will ultimately be deactivated or allowed to have their docs expire.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/29/goo...ffers-for-thousands-of-contractors-temps.html


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

KevinH said:


> https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-says...ose-work-if-theyre-reclassified-as-employees/
> *Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees*
> *Not all economists agree.*
> 
> ...


This is a load of donkey dung. They can keep everything the same with only one change. Prices must go up about 7 to 15% I'm amazed how they make something so simple to do impossible to implement. Fear is all they use well uber it is not working you are not above the law and you will pay the taxes because California will never give up and they have more money than you do to fight it.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Fusion_LUser said:


> Those who are preaching for AB5 and becoming employee's will be shocked when Uber/Lyft gets rid of the massive driver bloat they have right now and find themselves on the permanent chopping block.
> 
> Now more than ever for you ants who totally rely on Uber and/or Lyft you better start looking in to other fields of work.


For some reason every driver think they will not be one of the cut drivers &#128530;

Chances are the Uber only keeps super ants with brand new cars, near 100% acceptance rate, work 12 hour days/7 days per week.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> For some reason every driver think they will not be one of the cut drivers &#128530;
> 
> Chances are the Uber only keeps super ants with brand new cars, near 100% acceptance rate, work 12 hour days/7 days per week.


Most likely they will not fire a single driver they just won't hire new ones until it levels out because they will be required to provide unemployment and cobra. It would be much cheaper going the attrition rout.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Mole said:


> Most likely they will not fire a single driver they just won't hire new ones until it levels out because they will be required to provide unemployment and cobra. It would be much cheaper going the attrition rout.


That will depend on business going forward. The transportation industry specifically is probably looking forward to it's worst 2 years in modern history.

That will make most drivers dead money on the books.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Uber drivers quit by the thousands every day. It will just take some time to flatten the curve.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Mole said:


> Uber drivers quit by the thousands every day. It will just take some time to flatten the curve.


You miss understand, consumer comfort of being in a closed box with another will take a long time to return.

The science/medical advice to say it's 100% safe also is a long was away.

This includes all cars, buses, trains, and planes.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> You miss understand, consumer comfort of being in a closed box with another will take a long time to return.
> 
> The science/medical advice to say it's 100% safe also is a long was away.
> 
> This includes all cars, buses, trains, and planes.


People forget really quick.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Mole said:


> People forget really quick.


And that's called denial of reality.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> And that's called denial of reality.


I think, at least in calif. once we get to phase 4, which is SAH is removed pax will snap back. they will need to get to work, they will need to get to the airport. And everything in between. The problem will be for those who don't get hired/called back they might land as new drivers. That could smell everything up a bit....


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## Prawn Connery (Mar 26, 2020)

99.7% of ultra entitled UP members will get slapped in the face with reality and be out of work, and fighting for the Walmart greeter position


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

SHalester said:


> I think, at least in calif. once we get to phase 4, which is SAH is removed pax will snap back. they will need to get to work, they will need to get to the airport. And everything in between. The problem will be for those who don't get hired/called back they might land as new drivers. That could smell everything up a bit....


SHa I wish that was true but the transportation industry bread and butter is business travel.

Business travel has went online for collaboration.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Business travel has went online for collaboration.


I hear you, but I don't totally agree. Most positions don't translate to being remote 100%. I think it will spring back, here in calif, once SAH orders are lifted. At least for my time of the day. The only problem might be 'new' drivers who don't get hired back.....yikes.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

SHalester said:


> Kinda what I've been saying AB5 is not honey and rainbows for drivers. Anybody who has been an employee for any length of time would know that.


Exactly what I've been saying all along. AB5 is a terrible mess.
And thanks to its supporters, I may be among those losing that income.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Mash Ghasem said:


> B5 is a terrible mess.


Come November the mess will be cleared, in a landslide. :thumbup:


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

Mole said:


> This is a load of donkey dung. They can keep everything the same with only one change. Prices must go up about 7 to 15% I'm amazed how they make something so simple to do impossible to implement. Fear is all they use well uber it is not working you are not above the law and you will pay the taxes because California will never give up and they have more money than you do to fight it.





Mole said:


> This is a load of donkey dung. They can keep everything the same with only one change. Prices must go up about 7 to 15% I'm amazed how they make something so simple to do impossible to implement. Fear is all they use well uber it is not working you are not above the law and you will pay the taxes because California will never give up and they have more money than you do to fight it.


7 to 15% won't cover anything. Social Security (employer pays 6.2%), Medicare (employer pays 1.45%), Federal unemployment taxes,(FUTA), State unemployment taxes (SUTA), not counting medical insurance. I know a lot of companies these total about 25% of an employee's salary.



Mole said:


> Most likely they will not fire a single driver they just won't hire new ones until it levels out because they will be required to provide unemployment and cobra. It would be much cheaper going the attrition rout.


they will only have to pay unemployment insurance once you work for them for 26 weeks as an employee. up to that point they are free to let you go. in fact they can let all go before, then hire back only who they want. i've seen this happen with my last company every time they took over another company.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

islanddriver said:


> 7 to 15% won't cover anything. Social Security (employer pays 6.2%), Medicare (employer pays 1.45%), Federal unemployment taxes,(FUTA), State unemployment taxes (SUTA), not counting medical insurance. I know a lot of companies these total about 25% of an employee's salary.


7 to 15% will be added to the total cost of the trip that would end up being 15 to 25% of the drivers pay and would cover the expense of an employee.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

islanddriver said:


> 7 to 15% won't cover anything. Social Security (employer pays 6.2%), Medicare (employer pays 1.45%), Federal unemployment taxes,(FUTA), State unemployment taxes (SUTA), not counting medical insurance. I know a lot of companies these total about 25% of an employee's salary.
> 
> 
> they will only have to pay unemployment insurance once you work for them for 26 weeks as an employee. up to that point, they are free to let you go. they can let all go before, then hire back only who they want. I've seen this happen with my last company every time they took over another company.


they can also cut everyone down to 4 hour's a day and the hours they want you to work. that way they don't have to pay benefits.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

islanddriver said:


> they can also cut everyone down to 4 hour's a day and the hours they want you to work. that way they don't have to pay benefits.


They will lose money that way. I'm sure they have a plan and we can deal with it when things change. I for one hope Uber fails. I want all gig workers covered by state laws it will prevent all these corporation from taking away what is due to the people they will just need to adjust.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

Mole said:


> 7 to 15% will be added to the total cost of the trip that would end up being 15 to 25% of the driver's pay and would cover the expense of an employee.


yes, it may, but it won't cover all the office legal expenses they will incur making all of us employees.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

islanddriver said:


> yes, it may, but it won't cover all the office legal expenses they will incur making all of us employees.


They have a app for that.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

Mole said:


> They will lose money that way. I'm sure they have a plan and we can deal with it when things change. I for one hope Uber fails. I want all gig workers covered by state laws it will prevent all these corporations from taking away what is due to the people they will just need to adjust.


How will lthey lose money that way .the have all the algorithms on when people want to use Uber .You also won't be able to turn down any rides and you'll have to go where they want you to go ,because now you're an employee. If that's what you really want more power to you. I don't want that. I decided to drive for Uber only when i want to part-time pick the hours I want. Pick up the people I want and cancel on the ones I don't . I go to the places I want to go and I don't go to places I don't want to go to, that's called freedom. Which is why i drive for uber



Mole said:


> They have a app for that.


Not for a company as large as Uber. Maybe for a company with a few employees. I can see by your answers you never worked for a large Corporation.



islanddriver said:


> How will they lose money that way .the have all the algorithms on when people want to use Uber. You also won't be able to turn down any rides and you'll have to go where they want you to go, because now you're an employee. If that's what you want more power to you. I don't want that. I decided to drive for Uber only when I want to part-time pick the hours I want. Pick up the people I want and cancel on the ones I don't. I go to the places I want to go and I don't go to places I don't want to go to, that's called freedom. Which is why I drive for uber
> 
> 
> Not for a company as large as Uber. Maybe for a company with a few employees. I can see by your answers you never worked for a large Corporation.


enough said if you want to be an employee go ahead. I'll stay a gig worker. if not uber then someone else.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> For some reason every driver think they will not be one of the cut drivers &#128530;
> 
> Chances are the Uber only keeps super ants with brand new cars, near 100% acceptance rate, work 12 hour days/7 days per week.


I would certainly be cut! An AR in the 30's and a PM in the 80's (profit margin)


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

Illinois says for Unemployment purposes, Uber drivers are listed as employees of Uber. Bigger Unemployment benefit is what that amounts to.


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## ABC123DEF (Jun 9, 2015)

Mole said:


> Uber drivers quit by the thousands every day. It will just take some time to flatten the curve.


Ha! 'Flatten the curve'....I see what you did there! But...even more importantly...are we 'all in this TOGETHER' ?


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

ABC123DEF said:


> Ha! 'Flatten the curve'....I see what you did there! But...even more importantly...are we 'all in this TOGETHER' ?


Yes we are all in the same sinking boat together hopefully we all can stay afloat somehow.


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## uberist (Jul 14, 2016)

KevinH said:


> https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-says...ose-work-if-theyre-reclassified-as-employees/
> *Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees*
> *Not all economists agree.*
> 
> ...


Drop in the bucket compaired to the amount of unenployment right now.

Beside losing and uber job is thenbest thing that could happen to a driver.


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

Good get rid of the part timers and pay your full timers.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Get rid of full timers and pay your part timers.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

LetsBeSmart said:


> Good get rid of the part-timers and pay your full-timers.


when they start cutting it will be full times. all businesses cut full time its the fastest way to save money. with part timer's you can put them in shifts where you need them, you don't have to worry about 8 hr shifts .also you can extend a part-timer 1 to or more hours if needed and not worry about overtime If you set up your business where only full time 40 hours get benefits. Then you dont need to pay benefits tto part time , money saver and legalm to do. So uber will still be a gig job for some as it was ment to be from the beginning and not a full time job.


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## Launchpad McQuack (Jan 8, 2019)

islanddriver said:


> they will only have to pay unemployment insurance once you work for them for 26 weeks as an employee.


I don't really follow this AB5 mess as it's a California thing and I don't care, but AB5 went into effect on January 1, correct? AB5 was supposed to make drivers employees. Uber has basically said that they're not doing that and is challenging it in court. If they ultimately lose this court battle, doesn't that mean that drivers have been employees since January 1?


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

islanddriver said:


> So uber will still be a gig job for some as it was meant to be from the beginning and not a full time job.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That!



Launchpad McQuack said:


> doesn't that mean that drivers have been employees since January 1?


doesn't matter the ballot intiative due to be voted on come November will make AB5 for RS a non-event.


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## Launchpad McQuack (Jan 8, 2019)

SHalester said:


> doesn't matter the ballot intiative due to be voted on come November will make AB5 for RS a non-event.


...........if it passes.


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## Buck-a-mile (Nov 2, 2019)

Mole said:


> Most likely they will not fire a single driver they just won't hire new ones until it levels out because they will be required to provide unemployment and cobra. It would be much cheaper going the attrition rout.


Well you've been *****ing about ants for years. This will be the end of ants.


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## actsholy (Jul 3, 2018)

KevinH said:


> https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-says...ose-work-if-theyre-reclassified-as-employees/
> *Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees*
> *Not all economists agree.*
> 
> ...


Uber could have raised wages but choose


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

islanddriver said:


> when they start cutting it will be full times. all businesses cut full time its the fastest way to save money. with part timer's you can put them in shifts where you need them, you don't have to worry about 8 hr shifts .also you can extend a part-timer 1 to or more hours if needed and not worry about overtime If you set up your business where only full time 40 hours get benefits. Then you dont need to pay benefits tto part time , money saver and legalm to do. So uber will still be a gig job for some as it was ment to be from the beginning and not a full time job.


Part timers are worth only a small amount of money to Uber and Lyft, the full timers who hit the streets and work 50 or 60 hours a week are their bread and butter, the rest of you not worth squat to them.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

LetsBeSmart said:


> Part timers are worth only a small amount of money to Uber and Lyft, the full timers who hit the streets and work 50 or 60 hours a week are their bread and butter, the rest of you not worth squat to them.


No when they have to start paying you for all those hours. Plus out of you 50 to 60 hours a week has many are dead. I work on average 5 hours a day 5days a week. Maybe 1/2 hours a day is dead.



LetsBeSmart said:


> Part timers are worth only a small amount of money to Uber and Lyft, the full timers who hit the streets and work 50 or 60 hours a week are their bread and butter, the rest of you not worth squat to them.


Besides most part timers work peek hours so I don't think they'll lose much. And I didn't say all full time would lose their job. Bit they will pick and choose who will work for the by ratings and acceptance rate.


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

personally while once opposed to ab5, Its not too bad of an idea. First it will end all the free riders who drive like 5 hours a week and quit when there's a good game on, c'mon work ethic? 

The only drivers that will drive will show some pride, 40 hours, fully benefited, no cherry picking rides hurting riders from disadvantaged places. You'll get sick leave, health care and UI. You'll have to be on your toes and not take a bathroom break every hour, you'll get your 15 break take it then. 

And i'm sick of drivers using the destination filter as a crutch, some drivers are using it to try and cherry pick longer rides, as an employee this will end. The customer who travels 2 minutes is just as important as one who travels 2 hours.

You wont be able to deduct your miles so you will pay more in taxes and your obamacare will end, but ubers giving health insurance and paying more taxes does help schools and children, and potholes :smiles:

Also pool, no more rejecting it or you're fired. Pool helps lower traffic, emissions and co2, there is simply no valid argument why 3 people traveling in the same direction should take 3 separate cars, drivers cherry picking x will end with AB5.

All in all ab5 is the discipline all drivers need. Drivers have had more freedom with Uber than any other job, and it's time to end and take responsibility. Can you imagine being a line cook and saying "i'm going home early to watch a game" LOL. Ab5 gives us rules, guidance and discipline that was sorely lacking.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

dnlbaboof said:


> c'mon work ethic


it's a side gig. And, per Uber's last numbers, 80% do it less than 30 hours a week. So, perhaps the majority have the right idea? This time, at least. 
AB5 is the not the winner a few think it will be. Those who DO think AB5 is a winner are not looking at the full picture, nor have they been employees for any length of time. 
Come November, won't even be an issue anymore......


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Buck-a-mile said:


> Well you've been @@@@@ing about ants for years. This will be the end of ants.


You can never get rid of ants you can slow them down but that is about it.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

If drivers were smart and the state of California sincere, then they would force Uber to give better rates to drivers. Sadly most of the drivers don't know what they are doing, and California is concerned about its own revenue. A better demand would be Uber X rates of $1.10/mile and $0.40/minute throughout the state of California. NYC has rates of $1.10/mile and $0.50/minute, and out-of-town special rates like taxis. But NYC market is regulated and cost of rideshare is much more than CA. TLC in NYC even dictates what kind of car you can drive. I am pretty sure a 2010 Camry will not be approved by TLC in NYC.
Given all that, even $1.00/mile and $0.30/minute is a really decent rate throughout California. Some surge and bonus here and there will be just a bonus on top of that rate. And Uber will definitely give bonuses and surge, to lure drivers to work more and on events(if any because of Corona)

This employment and minimum wage model will really hurt the drivers, I am telling you. NYC drivers are not happy with TLC. I have friends in NYC. Rideshare is not a minimum wage job. It is a small business. Give the drivers better rates and then LEAVE THEM ALONE! Good drivers will make money if they are left alone.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

SpinalCabbage said:


> I view this as a good thing. There are way too many drivers as it is.


And if you are one of the casualties, not able to sign on, what would be your response?


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## SpinalCabbage (Feb 5, 2020)

Judge and Jury said:


> And if you are one of the casualties, not able to sign on, what would be your response?


Not my first rodeo.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

REX HAVOC said:


> Just Uber scare tactics. They'll still need to service the demand even if the prices go up. The 20 to 120% increase they're estimating is not that much. It's still lower than hailing a cab and people are still going to use the service. But they may have to thin the herd anyway due to less demand from Covid whether AB5 goes through or not. I wonder if the drivers they let go will UI benefits?


And if you are thinned from the herd, what will be your response?



Mole said:


> Most likely they will not fire a single driver they just won't hire new ones until it levels out because they will be required to provide unemployment and cobra. It would be much cheaper going the attrition rout.


Also, all driver's will be part timers to avoid benefit costs for full time employees which is a hefty cost in CA.



Mole said:


> 7 to 15% will be added to the total cost of the trip that would end up being 15 to 25% of the drivers pay and would cover the expense of an employee.


You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. Where are you getting your information? I would like to read the official documents. Please provide a link if you are able.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> And if you are thinned from the herd, what will be your response?
> 
> 
> Also, all driver's will be part timers to avoid benefit costs for full time employees which is a hefty cost in CA.
> ...


it is pretty simple accounting. For every low cost employee $0 to $20 for Workmans comp SSI SDI EDI in California any ways you spend about 20 cents per dollar you pay someone. over $20 a hour the percentage goes lower. As long as your not a roofer or a painter they pay more. Also moles pay more like 32 cents per dollar.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Mole said:


> They will lose money that way. I'm sure they have a plan and we can deal with it when things change. I for one hope Uber fails. I want all gig workers covered by state laws it will prevent all these corporation from taking away what is due to the people they will just need to adjust.


You hope Uber fails? I am guessing you have a back up plan. If Uber fails in CA then all the other gig apps will also fail eventually. I love being an IC. If the gigs go away, I will have to rely on government assistance. Do you live in CA? Are you ready to pay for my government assistance? If you do not like being a small business owner, then please leave the business. I make way over minimum wage and do not want to be a minimum wage employee. Try not to ruin it for us that are doing great in the gig economy.



Mole said:


> They have a app for that.


You are being too glib. Livelihoods are on the line. Stop trying to protect me. Live your own life and leave the rest of us to our own devices. If you are not happy with the situation, simply desist and go down another path.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> You hope Uber fails? I am guessing you have a back up plan. If Uber fails in CA then all the other gig apps will also fail eventually. I love being an IC. If the gigs go away, I will have to rely on government assistance. Do you live in CA? Are you ready to pay for my government assistance? If you do not like being a small business owner, then please leave the business. I make way over minimum wage and do not want to be a minimum wage employee. Try not to ruin it for us that are doing great in the gig economy.


Yes I live in California. Yes I want all so call IC's to become employees so they are protected under state laws and given equal rights and you will pay in to the system and companies will pay in to the system so the system can support us when needed. No free rides everyone must chip in a little. Becoming a employee gives you a instant 7.5% raise you will not need to pay the full SSI. Do I have a plan B? Yes and a plan C,D,E, and F. Always.



Judge and Jury said:


> You hope Uber fails? I am guessing you have a back up plan. If Uber fails in CA then all the other gig apps will also fail eventually. I love being an IC. If the gigs go away, I will have to rely on government assistance. Do you live in CA? Are you ready to pay for my government assistance? If you do not like being a small business owner, then please leave the business. I make way over minimum wage and do not want to be a minimum wage employee. Try not to ruin it for us that are doing great in the gig economy.
> 
> 
> You are being too glib. Livelihoods are on the line. Stop trying to protect me. Live your own life and leave the rest of us to our own devices. If you are not happy with the situation, simply desist and go down another path.


I want über/lyft and Google and all the rest to pay taxes and stop corporate welfare.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

LetsBeSmart said:


> Good get rid of the part timers and pay your full timers.


No full timers if AB5 is enforced. Cost of benefits for full time employees in CA is horrendous.



SHalester said:


> Get rid of full timers and pay your part timers.


Yep. That is what will happen.



uberist said:


> Drop in the bucket compaired to the amount of unenployment right now.
> 
> Beside losing and uber job is thenbest thing that could happen to a driver.


Perhaps for you. STFU and go away. Millions of us need this gig.



LetsBeSmart said:


> Part timers are worth only a small amount of money to Uber and Lyft, the full timers who hit the streets and work 50 or 60 hours a week are their bread and butter, the rest of you not worth squat to them.


Wrong. Full timers will be limited to part timers because paying for full time employee's benefits in California is not feasible for the gig economy.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> No full timers if AB5 is enforced. Cost of benefits for full time employees in CA is horrendous.
> 
> 
> Yep. That is what will happen.
> ...


Look Uber/Lyft tried to screw the system in NYC it did not work for them. They tried to limit drivers times it caused massive surges and long wait times. Do not be afraid Ubey/Lyft is fighting this because it will cost them more money and cabs will be competitive they just want to crush everyone. This levels the playing field pays a good wage and pumps money in to a system that one day will help you. I hope the stater also limited the amount of drivers that would be awesome!



Judge and Jury said:


> No full timers if AB5 is enforced. Cost of benefits for full time employees in CA is horrendous.
> 
> 
> Yep. That is what will happen.
> ...


they will need full time drivers they make the company the most money.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

LetsBeSmart said:


> Part timers are worth only a small amount of money to Uber and Lyft, the full timers who hit the streets and work 50 or 60 hours a week are their bread and butter, the rest of you not worth squat to them.


OMG. You are expecting them to pay overtime?



Mole said:


> Yes I live in California. Yes I want all so call IC's to become employees so they are protected under state laws and given equal rights and you will pay in to the system and companies will pay in to the system so the system can support us when needed. No free rides everyone must chip in a little. Becoming a employee gives you a instant 7.5% raise you will not need to pay the full SSI. Do I have a plan B? Yes and a plan C,D,E, and F. Always.
> 
> 
> I want über/lyft and Google and all the rest to pay taxes and stop corporate welfare.


Thank you for deciding what is best for me. I am eternally grateful.
Are you still driving?


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> OMG. You are expecting them to pay overtime?
> 
> 
> Thank you for deciding what is best for me. I am eternally grateful.
> Are you still driving?


lol it is not up to me it is up to state and federal laws and are based on the Dynamex decision upheld by the U S Supreme Court. Even if uber/lyft was to get the new law passed it will be deemed unconstitutional in just about any court of the land except Texas.

No I am not currently driving but hope too soon.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

dnlbaboof said:


> personally while once opposed to ab5, Its not too bad of an idea. First it will end all the free riders who drive like 5 hours a week and quit when there's a good game on, c'mon work ethic?
> 
> The only drivers that will drive will show some pride, 40 hours, fully benefited, no cherry picking rides hurting riders from disadvantaged places. You'll get sick leave, health care and UI. You'll have to be on your toes and not take a bathroom break every hour, you'll get your 15 break take it then.
> 
> ...


Hopefully Pool is dead and buried.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Mole said:


> lol it is not up to me it is up to state and federal laws and are based on the Dynamex decision upheld by the U S Supreme Court. Even if uber/lyft was to get the new law passed it will be deemed unconstitutional in just about any court of the land except Texas.
> 
> No I am not currently driving but hope too soon.


Dynenex decision upheld by US Supreme Court or California state supreme court?


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> Dynenex decision upheld by US Supreme Court or California state supreme court?
> 
> I was wrong it is the California Supreme Court and the The Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.


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## uberist (Jul 14, 2016)

Judge and Jury said:


> Perhaps for you. STFU and go away. Millions of us need this gig.


FOAD


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## jfinks (Nov 24, 2016)

Remember as employees you also get a mileage check for every mile driven for work purposes on top of your wages. In most places that is almost what the per mile rate is. It isn't a tax deduction, it is a weekly payout from the company for the use of your vehicle and all dead miles are paid also... This is a main reason they are fighting the contractor/employee situation. Uber just needs to simplify everything the way it was in the beginning. Go back to taking a percentage of what the rider pays. Make it 25% including the "safe rider" bs. Heck make it 30%.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> No full timers if AB5 is enforced. Cost of benefits for full time employees in CA is horrendous.


False.

The bedrock core of the rideshare business is the Mon-Fri commute, which is dominated by full time drivers.

There's no way Uber will be able to service the Mon-Fri commutes with part time drivers unless there's a massive pay increase that's large enough to provide the current full time drivers with an income close to what they're getting now working 50-90 hours per week.

Uber will have to bite the bullet and maintain a sizeable force of full timers.


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## Who is John Galt? (Sep 28, 2016)

"Uber has been crunching data, and it's come up with an internal analysis on what would happen if it reclassified its California drivers as employees."

This is hilarious, I remember Über crunching data on many occasions, with one more recent being the propagation of the idea that they will be profitable by year's end. &#129315;

.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

jfinks said:


> Remember as employees you also get a mileage check for every mile driven for work purposes on top of your wages. In most places that is almost what the per mile rate is. It isn't a tax deduction, it is a weekly payout from the company for the use of your vehicle and all dead miles are paid also... This is a main reason they are fighting the contractor/employee situation. Uber just needs to simplify everything the way it was in the beginning. Go back to taking a percentage of what the rider pays. Make it 25% including the "safe rider" bs. Heck make it 30%.


Paying for milage is not mandatory for a company to do. 
as an employee, you could be making less money than you are now. There is no mandatory for employers to pay benefits all they have to do is pay minimum wage. Be careful what you wish for.


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

KevinH said:


> https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-says...ose-work-if-theyre-reclassified-as-employees/
> *Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees*
> *Not all economists agree.*
> 
> ...


The day that Uber allows drivers to set their own rates, then the drivers will truly be independent contractors. Like at AirBNB, the hosts are allowed to set their own rates. If you control my price and affect how much I make and when I want to make it, then I am truly an employee. And forget about acceptance rates. The current situation is that Uber wants to have the control over the drivers like an employer, but refuses to shoulder the costs of having an employee i.e. benefits, holiday pay, paying some of the costs in owning and maintaining a vehicle. Sorry Uber, you cannot have it both ways, which has been the status quo for too long.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> The day that Uber allows drivers to set their own rates, then the drivers will truly be independent contractors. And forget about acceptance rates. The current situation is that Uber wants to have the control over the drivers like an employer, but refuses to shoulder the costs of having an employee i.e. benefits, holiday pay, paying some of the costs in owning and maintaining a vehicle. Sorry Uber, you cannot have it both ways, which has been the status quo for too long.


If we do get employee status there is no guarantee that you will get benefits, holiday pay, paying some of the costs in owning and maintaining a vehicle. the only thing it will guarantee for you is minimum wage and overtime over 40 hours if they let you work over 40 hours. As an employee, they can tell you what hours you work and how many. you will have to take every Pax they send you. you won't be able to cancel rides anyone. I for one want to stay an independent contractor. That's the reason I went into this , work when I want the freedom.


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## jfinks (Nov 24, 2016)

islanddriver said:


> Paying for milage is not mandatory for a company to do.
> as an employee, you could be making less money than you are now. There is no mandatory for employers to pay benefits all they have to do is pay minimum wage. Be careful what you wish for.


They do if it brings their earnings below the federal minimum. This includes all expenses, gas, repairs, etc. So it is easier bookkeeping just to pay mileage plus the wages.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

jfinks said:


> They do if it brings their earnings below the federal minimum. This includes all expenses, gas, repairs, etc. So it is easier bookkeeping just to pay mileage plus the wages.


if that's the case it would be only mileage while on a trip ., not deadhead miles. and those you couldn't deduct. I don't know about you but I average more than minimum wage after expenses.


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## jfinks (Nov 24, 2016)

islanddriver said:


> if that's the case it would be only mileage while on a trip ., not deadhead miles. and those you couldn't deduct. I don't know about you but I average more than minimum wage after expenses.


As an employee you will be paid, most likely min wage after mileage pay. It doesn't matter what you make now. It is all dead head miles also and since there is now "home office" it will be the first and last miles also. Normally mileage isn't paid for the amount of miles you regularly take from home to the office and back.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

jfinks said:


> As an employee you will be paid, most likely min wage after mileage pay. It doesn't matter what you make now. It is all dead head miles also and since there is now "home office" it will be the first and last miles also. Normally mileage isn't paid for the amount of miles you regularly take from home to the office and back.


I'm talking dead head as in-between Trip's


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## jfinks (Nov 24, 2016)

islanddriver said:


> I'm talking dead head as in-between Trip's





islanddriver said:


> I'm talking dead head as in-between Trip's


There isn't any, the next trip is the next job. Now this would require tracking of some sort to make sure a driver wasn't just racking up the miles. So if between trips a driver drove 10 miles to get something to eat then that wouldn't be paid. You are an employee now though, scheduled work hours, scheduled breaks. Most like constant tracking of vehicle, it already does, but now it will be for mileage and where you go while "on the clock"... After trip ends the app will tell you where to go to wait.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

jfinks said:


> There isn't any, the next trip is the next job. Now this would require tracking of some sort to make sure a driver wasn't just racking up the miles. So if between trips a driver drove 10 miles to get something to eat then that wouldn't be paid. You are an employee now though, scheduled work hours, scheduled breaks. Most like constant tracking of vehicle, it already does, but now it will be for mileage and where you go while "on the clock"... After trip ends the app will tell you where to go to wait.


only if you sit and wait where you drop off to get the next trip. then you don't have dead miles. But if you drop off in a slow area and drive to a busy area those are dead miles. that why I say the will only pay miles while on a trip they won't pay for miles between trips. 
Either way, if you think you'll be better off as an employee good luck.


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## jfinks (Nov 24, 2016)

As an employee you will be directed where to go wait. Those aren't dead miles.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

jfinks said:


> As an employee, you will be directed where to go wait. Those aren't dead miles.


if they direct you. either way, if they go employee route I'm out. I took this gig for my freedom.


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> The day that Uber allows drivers to set their own rates, then the drivers will truly be independent contractors. Like at AirBNB, the hosts are allowed to set their own rates. If you control my price and affect how much I make and when I want to make it, then I am truly an employee. And forget about acceptance rates. The current situation is that Uber wants to have the control over the drivers like an employer, but refuses to shoulder the costs of having an employee i.e. benefits, holiday pay, paying some of the costs in owning and maintaining a vehicle. Sorry Uber, you cannot have it both ways, which has been the status quo for too long.


Uber is actually allowing select drivers to set their own rates at certain airports. Uber is also saying when you set your rate higher than the other ants Uber will first look for ants who will (1) drive for free or (2) pay Uber to get the ride or (3) see if that crazy cat lady who stabs anyone within 25 feet of her will take the ride before Uber will send it your way.


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

Fusion_LUser said:


> Uber is actually allowing select drivers to set their own rates at certain airports. Uber is also saying when you set your rate higher than the other ants Uber will first look for ants who will (1) drive for free or (2) pay Uber to get the ride or (3) see if that crazy cat lady who stabs anyone within 25 feet of her will take the ride before Uber will send it your way.


That's fine. If someone wants to work for free that is their business. There is no reason, why I should set my rates low and not make any money. There is no point in depreciating my vehicle for no return.


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## Transportador (Sep 15, 2015)

SHalester said:


> Kinda what I've been saying AB5 is not honey and rainbows for drivers. Anybody who has been an employee for any length of time would know that.
> Come November AB5 is toast. Because the needs of the many out weight the needs of the one (or the few). Spock said that, so must be true....


Yeah buddy, like Taylor Swift said, we WILL vote you out. Bye bye AB5, RIP.

I just find it interesting that Uber just came out with Uber Hourly! The timing may be coincidental. It's like they are getting people ready to think of the $7 per hour they will pay their employee classified drivers.

Those of you who wanted AB5 never took or passed your basic economy class. You'd better get out and vote AB5 away or you'll be going away from Uber yourselves.


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## jfinks (Nov 24, 2016)

Transportador said:


> Yeah buddy, like Taylor Swift said, we WILL vote you out. Bye bye AB5, RIP.
> 
> I just find it interesting that Uber just came out with Uber Hourly! The timing may be coincidental. It's like they are getting people ready to think of the $7 per hour they will pay their employee classified drivers.
> 
> Those of you who wanted AB5 never took or passed your basic economy class. You'd better get out and vote AB5 away or you'll be going away from Uber yourselves.


They can pay me 7$ per hour and pay all my mileage. That is a lot better than it is now. If I only work six hours per day I can door dash for 2-3 hours after and call it a day. I would need some sort of guaranteed pay per day and not $56 for 8 hours at 7/hr. There would need to be hourly operational costs of the vehicle also. Sitting idle for 1 hour is equal to driving about 30 miles, if it is hot or cold out I'm not going to sit there and freeze or burn up from heat. So 8 hours at 30 miles is what 240 miles or about $130 plus min wage of $56. That equals about $23 per hour in pay.


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## Transportador (Sep 15, 2015)

jfinks said:


> They can pay me 7$ per hour and pay all my mileage. That is a lot better than it is now. If I only work six hours per day I can door dash for 2-3 hours after and call it a day. I would need some sort of guaranteed pay per day and not $56 for 8 hours at 7/hr. There would need to be hourly operational costs of the vehicle also. Sitting idle for 1 hour is equal to driving about 30 miles, if it is hot or cold out I'm not going to sit there and freeze or burn up from heat. So 8 hours at 30 miles is what 240 miles or about $130 plus min wage of $56. That equals about $23 per hour in pay.


Man, you are dreaming. They will hand you an Uber POS car to drive at $7 an hour. No expense reimbursement necessary. Imagine you get to drive a company car. Oh yeah, a career paying less than minimum wage. They will also deduct taxes from your paycheck. Good luck buddy. You'd be better off working at a McD.


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## jfinks (Nov 24, 2016)

Transportador said:


> Man, you are dreaming. They will hand you an Uber POS car to drive at $7 an hour. No expense reimbursement necessary. Imagine you get to drive a company car. Oh yeah, a career paying less than minimum wage. They will also deduct taxes from your paycheck. Good luck buddy. You'd be better off working at a McD.


Nobody has to work for them. They give me a car to drive it can't be a POS. It has to be a safe vehicle that will satisfy their customers.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

KevinH said:


> Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees


They have already been reclassified as employees, though. There is no "if".

It reminds me of when I went to the Lyft hub in February to ask them on what date they planned to start obeying AB5 and pay me my hourly wage plus expenses plus employee benefits. Dude said, "Well, we are still working with legislators to find out what the best way forward is".

"No you're not", I replied. "Lyft _was _negotiating with legislators but they said no. Then they passed AB5. The negotiation phase has come and gone and it's a done deal. So, again, on what date is Lyft going to start paying me hourly wage plus car expenses plus employee benefits?"

The guy just shrugged and remained silent. He had no answer.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> They have already been reclassified as employees


no, we haven't. AB5 is frozen in court proceeding(s). Not one driver has filled out a W4; until that happens we ain't employees, period.



Nats121 said:


> The bedrock core of the rideshare business is the Mon-Fri commute, which is dominated by full time drivers.


sure about that? Per uber 20% of uber drivers are online for more than 30 hours a week. That's awfully low for being a 'bedrock'.


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

KevinH said:


> Uber's analysis only takes into account having full-time drivers on the platform working 40-hour work weeks.


Someone needs to tell Uber that this was never meant to be a full time job.



KevinH said:


> "Some drivers who work more than 40 hours per week will reduce their hours," Reich said. "Many who drive less than 40 hours per week are likely to increase their hours."


Okay, so there's 50,000 people working 4 hours a week that need to decide if they want scheduled hours or just quit. No big deal there...



REX HAVOC said:


> Just Uber scare tactics.


As per the norm.

Uber: If it costs us more money, tell everyone that their world will come to an end.


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## SRGuy (May 17, 2016)

SHalester said:


> no, we haven't. AB5 is frozen in court proceeding(s). Not one driver has filled out a W4; until that happens we ain't employees, period.
> 
> 
> sure about that? Per uber 20% of uber drivers are online for more than 30 hours a week. That's awfully low for being a 'bedrock'.


I haven't filed a W4 but have now been classified, along with numerous other workers, as a W2
employee by California EDD. Uber is my primary W2 employer which is great. The state is in a great position - pay UI benefits and then collect back taxes from uber, Lyft, Doordash et al. And the state is also well-positioned for the slew of upcoming DLSE cases - workers get money in their pocket and the state gets increased tax revenue.

California could shut down any of these companies tomorrow if they chose to - it's a high stakes
game of chicken. They shut down uber a few years ago when uber threatened to terrorize the streets with their unreliable autonomous vehicles.

Uber etc are fearful of having workers become W2 employees for a number of
reasons - they would be on the hook for airport tickets, tickets for bus zone pickups after directing a driver to a bus zone, tickets for red zone pickups, tickets for yellow zone pickups, tickets for white zone pickups. And let's not forget that uber would pay your salary while you're
being investigated for a false accusation of driving while under the influence.

The scare tactic of losing flexibility is an old, tired and false argument. Work schedules are in
place across the country and have been in place for over a hundred years. Uber etc is fearful of having to comply with labor laws because it exposes the flaws in their business model. If a lawful
business model isn't profitable, you either change the model or go out of business - it's simple
capitalism. Every company in the US would love to get rid of their W2 employees and convert them to 1099 but the societal cost would be unsustainable.


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## Everyonelikespie (Jun 1, 2020)

Here are the groups that Benefit from Rideshare drivers becoming employees.

GOVERNMENT - More taxes - social security , medicare, unemployment, income taxes and payroll taxes.
LAWYERS - The layers working all these lawsuits will earn more than any driver will. That includes all the lawyers for every organization trying to help out = billable hours.
UBER - Who here does not think that UBER will figure out a way to reduce its driver expenses? If they are paying for a driver that has nobody in the car, maybe they would get that software that manages the wait times a bit more optimized. Also Who is to say that Uber would not require you to be at a specific location before you start work. Today you start work at your home. Suppose UBER decides your job starts 25 miles away from you. You don't get paid by any employer i know of to drive your own ass to work or take the bus. getting to your jobs is your expense. Say goodbye to SURGE. Why should they pay that at all? Say goodbye to destination mode (like that works anyway).
at the BOTTOM of the list would be drivers. I guarantee after the 1st year of being a full time driver, our lives would not be any better. just harder. Say goodbye to all those TIPS once people think you are earning more of a salary! Can't tell you how many people announce they are not tipping because they are paying a high surge (yup people that pay surge assume you are making enough off the surge and are likely to not tip).

So, could current drivers get the boot? Would there be a "Purge"? Like others have posted, perhaps existing drivers won't like the new "terms of employment" and bail after they see the first paycheck and say "WTF I thought this was to be better!"

Good luck to you all.


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## Launchpad McQuack (Jan 8, 2019)

Everyonelikespie said:


> Here are the groups that Benefit from Rideshare drivers becoming employees.
> 
> UBER


I don't buy that for a second. If it were beneficial to Uber for drivers to be employees, then drivers would be employees. It wouldn't take government action to make that happen.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

SRGuy said:


> as a W2
> employee by California EDD


that and 3.75 might get you a starbucks. We in calif are not employees by any accepted definition of the word. It's that simple No part of AB5 has been implemented. No judge has issued orders to do so. Court cases continue. And when those court cases complete; they will be appealed. AB5 is stuck in courts until Nov when the voters speak.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SHalester said:


> no, we haven't. AB5 is frozen in court proceeding(s). Not one driver has filled out a W4; until that happens we ain't employees, period.
> 
> 
> sure about that? Per uber 20% of uber drivers are online for more than 30 hours a week. That's awfully low for being a 'bedrock'.


Full time drivers provide a disproportionate number of rides per driver, especially during the all-important Mon-Fri rush hour shifts.

The primary purpose by far of public transit is to transport people to and from work Mon-Fri.

From Terrible Travis to Dastardly Dara, the grand "vision" for Uber has been to supplant public transit with SDC cartels.

Terrible Travis referred to that as "all the marbles".



islanddriver said:


> only if you sit and wait where you drop off to get the next trip. then you don't have dead miles. But if you drop off in a slow area and drive to a busy area those are dead miles. that why I say the will only pay miles while on a trip they won't pay for miles between trips.
> Either way, if you think you'll be better off as an employee good luck.


Any dead miles that pulls a driver's earnings below minimum wage would have to be paid for by Uber.



Everyonelikespie said:


> Here are the groups that Benefit from Rideshare drivers becoming employees.
> 
> GOVERNMENT - More taxes - social security , medicare, unemployment, income taxes and payroll taxes.


It's long overdue for Uber to start paying all of those costs they've been dumping on the taxpayers for all these years.



Everyonelikespie said:


> UBER - Who here does not think that UBER will figure out a way to reduce its driver expenses? If they are paying for a driver that has nobody in the car, maybe they would get that software that manages the wait times a bit more optimized.


So what? Uber would be required to pay the drivers minimum wage plus expenses regardless of whatever cost-cutting occurs.



Everyonelikespie said:


> Also Who is to say that Uber would not require you to be at a specific location before you start work. Suppose UBER decides your job starts 25 miles away from you. You don't get paid by any employer i know of to drive your own ass to work or take the bus. getting to your jobs is your expense. Say goodbye to SURGE. Why should they pay that at all? Say goodbye to destination mode (like that works anyway).


At the very least, Uber would be required to pay the drivers minimum wage and compensate the drivers for any expenses that cause the drivers' earnings to fall below min wage. Requiring drivers to report to the same fixed location for every shift would not be a covered expense, but requiring drivers to report to different locations would be.



Everyonelikespie said:


> Today you start work at your home.


Many if not most Uber drivers (especially full timers) have to drive several miles to their rideshare work area, especially in California, where some drivers drive 100 miles or more to their work areas. Some sleep in their cars.



Everyonelikespie said:


> I guarantee after the 1st year of being a full time driver, our lives would not be any better. just harder. Say goodbye to all those TIPS once people think you are earning more of a salary! Can't tell you how many people announce they are not tipping because they are paying a high surge (yup people that pay surge assume you are making enough off the surge and are likely to not tip).


Obviously you can't guarantee that. Most full time drivers would probably be better off. They'd finally have a safety net that included workers comp, unemployment insurance, minimum wage, overtime, FICA, and in California, protection against being fired without just cause.

Whether or not tipping is allowed would be up to the employer Uber. The same applies to surge pay and destination mode. But if competition enters the market, Uber may need to offer some or all of those things to keep their best drivers.


----------



## Alantc (Jun 15, 2018)

islanddriver said:


> they can also cut everyone down to 4 hour's a day and the hours they want you to work. that way they don't have to pay benefits.


Exactly keep weekly hours under 30


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Full time drivers provide a disproportionate number of rides per driver, especially during the all-important Mon-Fri rush hour shifts.


you think that, or you know that? Wanna bet on a per hour basis it is about the same? Sorry, if 20% are online for more than 30 hours I don't see that as anything other than 80% aren't doing it full time or anything close.

And as employees kiss over 8 hours online bye bye. No way Uber would approve overtime, ever.


----------



## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

SHalester said:


> And as employees kiss over 8 hours online bye bye. No way Uber would approve overtime, ever


I kinda agree with this. Once you hit 30 hrs in a week, I suspect they will shut you off.

I also agree with Nats that FT drivers do the overwhelming majority of rides, CURRENTLY. I do not have proof, but the 80/20 rule is pretty solid in most industries.


----------



## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

Mista T said:


> I kinda agree with this. Once you hit 30 hrs in a week, I suspect they will shut you off.
> 
> I also agree with Nats that FT drivers do the overwhelming majority of rides, CURRENTLY. I do not have proof, but the 80/20 rule is pretty solid in most industries.


I don't know for sure, but Uber was set up as a gig job which in itself is part-time. If most of Ubers rides are morning rush, evening rush, bars, and weekends I would say it would be 50 - 50. if then again all rides were all-day 20 % part-time. IMO
found this article that said.
There are about 833,000 Uber driver participants in a year. If one weights participants by their weeks worked and their weekly hours, then Uber drivers amount to 90,521 full-time, which would mean that only about 11% are full time.

https://www.epi.org/publication/ube...es-and-the-scale-of-uber-and-the-gig-economy/

I did read other places where it said that in big city like LA. NYC would be more full time. I do understand why in NYC you would be full-time cause with all the added expenses lit comical insurance and TLC fee's you couldn't pay those and be able to survive


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Mista T said:


> I do not have proof,


uber itself said 80% of active drivers do it less than 30 hours a week. That means 1/5 do it full time and I'll wager that is not 8am-5pm M-F either. AND per hour rides for pt or ft is about the same due to logistics. FT get more rides simply due to more hours online.
No matter; both groups are needed, tho I also bet more pt drivers come online vs fulltime in any given month......


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SHalester said:


> you think that, or you know that?


Uber acknowledged that during the IPO process.

Even without Uber's admission common sense and math would tell you that all things being relatively equal, if 20% of a labor force is working many more hours per person than the other 80% then the output of the 20% will be disproportionately higher than the 80% group.



SHalester said:


> Wanna bet on a per hour basis it is about the same?


Even if it's the same on a per hour basis the full timers are working a lot more hours per driver and thus are giving a lot more rides per driver, especially during the all-important rush hour shifts.



SHalester said:


> And as employees kiss over 8 hours online bye bye. No way Uber would approve overtime, ever.


If full timers could make as much or more money working 8 hours as they are currently working 10-14, I think they'd gladly sacrifice the extra hours.

You and the other posters are overlooking the fact that regardless of the number of hours a driver works as an employee, Uber would still have to provide them the following benefits... FICA, comp, and unemployment insurance. Uber would also be required to pay them minimum wage. California employee drivers would also benefit from the pro-employee law that protects against firing without just cause. Most other states don't offer that type of protection for employees.



SHalester said:


> uber itself said 80% of active drivers do it less than 30 hours a week. That means 1/5 do it full time and I'll wager that is not 8am-5pm M-F either. AND per hour rides for pt or ft is about the same due to logistics. FT get more rides simply due to more hours online.
> No matter; both groups are needed, tho I also bet more pt drivers come online vs fulltime in any given month......


If not for the fact that drivers can see destinations in advance, employee status would be a pay increase for most drivers.

Seeing destinations in advance has the potential to result in much higher pay rates if enough drivers use their brains and cherrypick. Early indications from California suggested that's what was happening until Covid-19 came along.

If I lived in California I would definitely choose the current model paired with seeing destinations in advance. I know I would do well with that system.

The problem is the potential risk of having the destination info taken away by Uber (working behind the scenes to generate public and govt opposition to it).

Uber hates showing the info and only did it out of fear of employee status. Uber would love to take it away from the drivers.

I've stated in multiple posts that getting destination info will be tough, and keeping it may prove to be even tougher, which is why I've said drivers may need to fight hard to keep it from being taken away.


----------



## Asificarewhatyoudontthink (Jul 6, 2017)

KevinH said:


> https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-says...ose-work-if-theyre-reclassified-as-employees/
> *Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees*
> *Not all economists agree.*
> 
> ...


Wait, so one of the first things it would do is ELIMINATE OVER SATURATION. Well ****me backwards and call Me Skippy. How the hell would you think that is a bad thing?

Oh, I bet you, and all the other idjits running around all chicken little, are scared you will be one of the ones that get cut. 
Bet it's cause you know you either cherry pick and cancel on rides you don't like or only drive when high surge is around so you know Uber will bump and dump folks like you first.

Well, thems the breaks.


----------



## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Uber acknowledged that during the IPO process.
> 
> Even without Uber's admission common sense and math would tell you that all things being relatively equal, if 20% of a labor force is working many more hours per person than the other 80% then the output of the 20% will be disproportionately higher than the 80% group.
> 
> ...


I'm sure it would be taken away. if they are paying you an hourly rate then you will be expected to work that hour as they see fit. which means no more cancellations without cause example safety or too many pax. Also, your rating will have a bigger impact on you as far as keeping your job.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> You and the other posters are overlooking the fact that regardless


says you? I"m the one here that has stated being an employee has huge huge down sides. One being 25-35% will be withheld for taxes. Full time drivers will no longer be able to work 30 hours week and therefor not get the benefits a few are seeking. RS will control who is online and for how long and that is ONLY the beginning. The whole concept of 'ping' will go away. The whole idea of 'declining or canceling' will go away. As an employee you don't get to pick and chose. You are TOLD what to do.

And on and on and on. For what? The possibility of a benefits?

btw, I still don't buy 20% of Uber's calif drivers really do all that much more than the 80%. Agree to disagree. The numbers don't lie. A minority try RS full time and I'll wager they burn out and quit at much higher rates than the part-timers.

Very sorry being an employee is not all honey and whip cream.


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

California is the worst state in the union, between job killing ab5 and lockdowns, the democrats have literally become terrorists shutting down businesses and killing tens of thousands of jobs with ab5..........


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

islanddriver said:


> I'm sure it would be taken away. if they are paying you an hourly rate then you will be expected to work that hour as they see fit. which means no more cancellations without cause example safety or too many pax. Also, your rating will have a bigger impact on you as far as keeping your job.


I'm not talking about Uber taking it away after drivers become employees, I'm talking about Uber scheming to take it away from independent contractor drivers.


----------



## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

SHalester said:


> says you? I"m the one here that has stated being an employee has huge huge down sides. One being 25-35% will be withheld for taxes. Full time drivers will no longer be able to work 30 hours week and therefor not get the benefits a few are seeking. RS will control who is online and for how long and that is ONLY the beginning. The whole concept of 'ping' will go away. The whole idea of 'declining or canceling' will go away. As an employee you don't get to pick and chose. You are TOLD what to do.
> 
> And on and on and on. For what? The possibility of a benefits?
> 
> ...


Total Agree


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SHalester said:


> says you? I"m the one here that has stated being an employee has huge huge down sides. One being 25-35% will be withheld for taxes. Full time drivers will no longer be able to work 30 hours week and therefor not get the benefits a few are seeking. RS will control who is online and for how long and that is ONLY the beginning. The whole concept of 'ping' will go away. The whole idea of 'declining or canceling' will go away. As an employee you don't get to pick and chose. You are TOLD what to do.
> 
> And on and on and on. For what? The possibility of a benefits?
> 
> ...


If Uber were to limit drivers to less than 30 hours per week the drivers could also work for Lyft and/or the food delivery companies and still receive guaranteed minimum wage plus FICA, etc.

If you choose not to buy what I (and Uber) said about the 20% full timers that's up to you.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> the drivers could simply drive for Lyft


er, um if AB5 prevails Lyft will be in the same boat as Uber and they too will make changes drivers won't like.

And we are agreed we don't agree with your statement 20% of Uber's active drivers in calif are doing more than the 80%...in anyway. So, as they say CLEAR CLEAR.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SHalester said:


> er, um if AB5 prevails Lyft will be in the same boat as Uber and they too will make changes drivers won't like.


Lyft would probably make the same changes, but drivers could get around the limited work hours issue by working for multiple companies.

For drivers who place a premium on being able to set their own hours and cherrypick their rides, employee status is not for them.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> but drivers could get around the limited work hours issue by working for multiple companies.


That is assuming they allow a driver to work for more than one company as an employee. A big assumption.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Oh, I bet you, and all the other idjits running around all chicken little, are scared you will be one of the ones that get cut.
> Bet it's cause you know you either cherry pick and cancel on rides you don't like or only drive when high surge is around so you know Uber will bump and dump folks like you first.


You just stated the contemptuous and hypocritical way Uber looks at their drivers...

"The nerve of those shitty rabble drivers attempting to do what's best for themselves by screening out crappy unprofitable rides. Those asswipe drivers actually want to know the destination of their pax before they accept a request. Imagine that !!! They should be grateful for whatever we choose to throw at them. The fact that we at Uber leave no stone unturned to find every bit of financial and personal info about the pax and drivers is perfectly OK."



SHalester said:


> That is assuming they allow a driver to work for more than one company as an employee. A big assumption.


In most states that would be a problem, but firing employees without just cause is illegal in California, so most likely California would consider Uber firing a driver because they work for Lyft an unjust firing.


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## Launchpad McQuack (Jan 8, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> If Uber were to limit drivers to less than 30 hours per week the drivers could also work for Lyft and/or the food delivery companies and still receive guaranteed minimum wage plus FICA, etc.


Most employers make employees sign a non-competition agreement that states that you are not allowed to work for a competitor. Usually, the non-competition agreement starts on the day that you sign it and ends some period of time (my most recent one was 18 months) after your employment ends.

I'm not sure if they can do this with part-time employees, though. I have only ever been full time.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> but firing employees without just cause is illegal in California,


nope, wrong again. Calif is an 'at will' state.

In the state of *California*, at-*will* employment means that the employer or the employee may terminate the employment relationship at any time, for any *reason*, so long as the *reason* is not illegal. ... However, being an at-*will* employee does not give your employer all the reasons to fire *you*, and there are exceptions

Your example is not one of the exceptions, btw.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Launchpad McQuack said:


> Most employers make employees sign a non-competition agreement that states that you are not allowed to work for a competitor. Usually, the non-competition agreement starts on the day that you sign it and ends some period of time (my most recent one was 18 months) after your employment ends.
> 
> I'm not sure if they can do this with part-time employees, though. I have only ever been full time.


Non-competes are illegal in California.



SHalester said:


> nope, wrong again. Calif is an 'at will' state.
> 
> In the state of *California*, at-*will* employment means that the employer or the employee may terminate the employment relationship at any time, for any *reason*, so long as the *reason* is not illegal. ... However, being an at-*will* employee does not give your employer all the reasons to fire *you*, and there are exceptions
> 
> Your example is not one of the exceptions, btw.


Non-compete contracts are illegal in CA.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Non-competes are illegal in California.


only as it applies to future employment. A distinction with difference.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SHalester said:


> only as it applies to future employment. A distinction with difference.


If an Uber driver gets fired for driving for Lyft, I like the driver's chances of having CA rule in the driver's favor.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

islanddriver said:


> if that's the case it would be only mileage while on a trip ., not deadhead miles. and those you couldn't deduct. I don't know about you but I average more than minimum wage after expenses.


No in California it would be for all miles driven and all time spent just like a per hour employee limo driver.



Nats121 said:


> If an Uber driver gets fired for driving for Lyft, I like the driver's chances of having CA rule in the driver's favor.


It would be like you work for two fast food restaurants or having a second job they can not fire you for that unless you do not show up to work


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> If an Uber driver gets fired for driving for Lyft,


you misunderstand the protection. If an Uber driver is fired (or whatever), they CAN go to work at Lyft. There is no ability of Uber to prevent said driver from doing so, even if said driver signed a non-compete contract.

Clear now? :thumbup:


----------



## Woohaa (Jan 15, 2017)

What a dilemma. Pay drivers a livable wage or fire them? 🤔


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Woohaa said:


> Pay drivers a livable wage or fire them?


...is the state minimum wage considered 'living'? Asking for a friend.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

SHalester said:


> ...is the state minimum wage considered 'living'? Asking for a friend.


yes $13.00 per hour.
https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

islanddriver said:


> yes $13.00 per hour.


that's maybe a living wage for a teen working fast food while attending school.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

SHalester said:


> that's maybe a living wage for a teen working fast food while attending school.


Tell the state that. Minimum Wage is just a starting point. How much more than that depends on you and what you willing to do to get more.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

islanddriver said:


> Minimum Wage is just a starting point.


oh, I agree. Minimum wage was orignally hatched to protect teen workers from the likes of McD and others. Then suddenly adults **** minimum wage was something else. 
Still, tho, confused on what a 'living' wage is. What magically amount per hour.....?


----------



## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

SHalester said:


> oh, I agree. Minimum wage was orignally hatched to protect teen workers from the likes of McD and others. Then suddenly adults thought minimum wage was something else.
> Still, tho, confused on what a 'living' wage is. What magically amount per hour.....?


The living wage shown is the hourly rate that an *individual* in a household must earn to support his or herself and their family. The assumption is the sole provider is working full-time (2080 hours per year). 
look here this tells you about Calif. each state is different. In some states an employer must pay the living wage if they do government contract work. 
https://livingwage.mit.edu/states/06


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

islanddriver said:


> look here this tells you about Calif


thanks. those numbers are a joke. Unless 'living wage' means living in a wet cardboard box.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

SHalester said:


> thanks. those numbers are a joke. Unless 'living wage' means living in a wet cardboard box.


its different wages by county. go to the top left of page click on the word calculator. the type in your state and look for your county.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

islanddriver said:


> its different wages by county.


trust me, the numbers for Nor Calif are all a joke.......unless one lives in the basement of their parents house.


----------



## Clarc (Mar 14, 2020)

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-p...uber-case-which-may-pave-way-for-class-action
I have not read well the decision of the court, but it seems to me that in this decision is included the obligation of the company to show the drivers the direction where they will go. If they do not want to go to get the customer in the direction shown in the app, this will not affect their points. Anyone who can have more information can tell us.


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## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

If you can't figure out how this works and how to make money at it but you still want to drive *and *be someone's employee, you have a ton of options:

Drive a ef-ing taxi, limo, bus, truck, etc...

Leave those of us who are capable of being profitable independent contractors the ef alone.

Either that, or learn to NOT drive 10 minutes for a minimum fare ride...learn to NOT buy a new vehicle to earn ~$0.60/mile...learn HOW TO spot the moron who is 3 minutes from puking his guts out *before* you unlock your doors. etc...

*Figure it out OR do something else!*

Why do we have to pay for your incompetence?


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

islanddriver said:


> they can also cut everyone down to 4 hour's a day and the hours they want you to work. that way they don't have to pay benefits.


Actually, no.

The only difference between a part time employee (less than 30 hours a week) and a full time employee is medical benefits.

Every other benefit is the same wether part time or full time.

There is no other difference.


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## Clarc (Mar 14, 2020)

Court decisions are binding on any individual or company. Answers of the kind: if you like to leave or do something else, it is said in countries that have problems with the law and that the right of the employee is a term that does not exist. Not to mention the unions which as a term exist only on paper. Because ultimately the law must also support employees who sacrifice a lot. This is one of the reasons why people are so proud to live in democracies that include Canada. Because the law and the Courts are functional and the logic in the decisions given is rational. Authoritarian mentality is unacceptable in democratic societies.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Non-competes are illegal in California.
> 
> 
> Non-compete contracts are illegal in CA.


Are you sure? I had to sign one at my previous company.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

goneubering said:


> Are you sure? I had to sign one at my previous company.


A lot of companies have you sign stuff knowing most people don't know the law.

Noncompetes are unenforceable in California.



observer said:


> A lot of companies have you sign stuff knowing most people don't know the law.
> 
> Noncompetes are unenforceable in California.


To be clear, a noncompete is not the same as allowing you to steal company secrets.


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

observer said:


> A lot of companies have you sign stuff knowing most people don't know the law.
> 
> Noncompetes are unenforceable in California.
> 
> ...


Not true.

The law sets up specific guidelines for non-competes in Cali.

First search result:

https://www.caemployeelawyer.com/are-non-competes-enforceable-in-california/


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

KenLV said:


> Not true.
> 
> The law sets up specific guidelines for non-competes in Cali.
> 
> ...


From your article.

"The California courts will no longer enforce non-compete agreements. Employers in the state cannot make signing a non-compete a required term of employment (unless employees are independent contractors) in California."

https://www.rhdtlaw.com/non-compete...ete agreements,whether they are “reasonable.”


----------



## KenLV (Jun 23, 2017)

observer said:


> From your article.
> 
> "The California courts will no longer enforce non-compete agreements. Employers in the state cannot make signing a non-compete a required term of employment (unless employees are independent contractors) in California."


That'd be *one of the guidelines I spoke of*, here are some *more*...

As of this day, any non-compete agreements entered into or modified in the state of California must operate under the following rules:


Employees can void non-competes that require a court outside of California to decide disputes.
Employees can void contracts with illegal non-compete terms. This was already a rule, but employees now enjoy further protections.
Only California courts can rule on non-compete issues within the state. The courts will only use California law when deciding these cases.
Employees can receive compensation for attorney's fees if they have to go to court to stand up for their rights during non-compete disputes. Employers cannot seek attorney's fees, even if the employer wins the case.

So, as long as the company follows the rules, yes, non-competes ARE enforceable in California.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

https://www.upcounsel.com/non-compete-california


KenLV said:


> That'd be *one of the guidelines I spoke of*, here are some *more*...
> 
> As of this day, any non-compete agreements entered into or modified in the state of California must operate under the following rules:
> 
> ...


California is very pro employee.

Companies can write up whatever contracts they want, they will be thrown out in court.

Noncompetes are not enforceable in California.

The California Attorney General disagrees with you.

https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-relea...nationwide-ban-non-compete-agreements-reminds


KenLV said:


> That'd be *one of the guidelines I spoke of*, here are some *more*...
> 
> As of this day, any non-compete agreements entered into or modified in the state of California must operate under the following rules:
> 
> ...


BTW, if you read your four examples they have nothing to do with upholding an employers noncompete and everything to do with protecting the employee.


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## Mista T (Aug 16, 2017)

observer said:


> A lot of companies have you sign stuff knowing most people don't know the law


Agreed.

For example, we agreed (in writing) that we are ICs, that we will never break the law (speeding, anyone?), that we would accept mandatory arbitration, that we wouldn't take U.minors, etc.


----------



## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Mista T said:


> Agreed.
> 
> For example, we agreed (in writing) that we are ICs, that we will never break the law (speeding, anyone?), that we would accept mandatory arbitration, that we wouldn't take U.minors, etc.


Uber can not prove you read the contract making it void. So say' one lawsuit pending. In California the state sees all drivers as employees and with that voids the contract and mandates that Uber follow the state government rules of employment.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Mole said:


> Uber can not prove you read the contract making it void.


maybe, but they can prove you accepted the agreement (it is not a contract) when you went online the first time the agreement was changed. 
As to the employee crud: nope, all stuck in the courts no movement. And come Nov Prop 22 will further muddy the waters if it passes. When we fill out a W4, then you know Uber has been commanded.


----------



## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

SHalester said:


> maybe, but they can prove you accepted the agreement (it is not a contract) when you went online the first time the agreement was changed.
> As to the employee crud: nope, all stuck in the courts no movement. And come Nov Prop 22 will further muddy the waters if it passes. When we fill out a W4, then you know Uber has been commanded.


All I know is a very liberal and Democratic state wants their tax money and they have deeper pockets then Uber or even google and they will get their way and the money and then I want my back pay vacation pay sick pay and SSI for the last 5 years. In California large corporations always lose.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Mole said:


> then I want my back pay vacation pay sick pay and SSI for the last 5 years.


will never happen. First AB5 is not 5 years old. Second, vacation pay? That must be part of the unicorn and rainbow portion of becoming an employee?


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

SHalester said:


> will never happen. First AB5 is not 5 years old. Second, vacation pay? That must be part of the unicorn and rainbow portion of becoming an employee?


https://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/dynamex-operations-west-inc-v-superior-court-34584
According to this we can sue for back wages all the way back to 2004.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Mole said:


> All I know is a very liberal and Democratic state wants their tax money and they have deeper pockets then Uber or even google and they will get their way and the money and then I want my back pay vacation pay sick pay and SSI for the last 5 years. In California large corporations always lose.


Most wage disputes can only go back three years.

I'm not sure if a lawsuit stops that clock.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Mole said:


> According to this we can sue for back wages all the way back to 2004


go for it. won't happen, but nothing to prevent you from finding a lawyer and 'trying'.

Still waiting for how you thing Uber will implement us being drivers. What the setup will be. What freedoms we have now that will go away. Still noodling? There are a few thousand notes here for you to find via search that will give you 'hints' on what will go away. Might want to review them so you know exactly what could happen. Might be one or 2 things you will be concerned about.


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

observer said:


> Most wage disputes can only go back three years.
> 
> I'm not sure if a lawsuit stops that clock.


I once got a check for a company I worked for 10 years past it was for a misclassified position the lawsuit was 2 years old but I think the company settled because they knew they were going to lose.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.na...preme-court-will-likely-decide-if-dynamex?amp


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

observer said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.na...preme-court-will-likely-decide-if-dynamex?amp


Where is my money? Gimme my check pay me now B. Lol I just need backpay for a private jet and 2 weeks stay at the Hilton in a above the water bungalow ocean facing not lagoon $142,000 should cover it.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

KevinH said:


> https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-says...ose-work-if-theyre-reclassified-as-employees/
> *Uber says 158,000 drivers will lose work if they're reclassified as employees*
> *Not all economists agree.*
> 
> ...


In my view, nothing is more efficient than 1099, where drivers, not some central planning committee, make choices according to market demand in real time. I'm a liberal, but not that liberal.

The Uber estimate is probably accurate, because it will drive up the cost to Uber per ride, and firing people will be the only way to offset that increase.



Mole said:


> This is a load of donkey dung. They can keep everything the same with only one change. Prices must go up about 7 to 15% I'm amazed how they make something so simple to do impossible to implement. Fear is all they use well uber it is not working you are not above the law and you will pay the taxes because California will never give up and they have more money than you do to fight it.


I've got bad news for you. I've been in this business for a long time, and there was a time when TAxi companies paid as employees. I know, becuase in 1977 I was an 'employee' at red and white taxi in L.A.

Thing is, they DID NOT pay per hour, they paid a commission, and they can do that, under employment laws.

Guess what your 'commission' will be? It won't be as much as it is now, you can bet on that. AND they will withhold each paycheck for taxes. And THEY WILL require you to work at least 10 hours shifts 6 days per week. There are NO parttime drivers in the employee taxi world, or that's they way it was then. I don't know what Uber will do. Most of their drivers are parttime. However, in San Diego, when I moved there in the 90s, Yellow had an 'employee' option, 9 hour shifts and I think it was $6 per hour, or something like that.

Have fun being an 'employee'.

And, for the argument that 1099 has to pay an estimated tax each quarter, no you don't. I have NEVER done that, I just figured the tax and paid it at the end of the year, and because my mileage allowance reduces my income below the threshold where I even need to pay a tax, I don't have to pay a tax at all, I don't make enough, according to the IRS's own rules. That being the case, the 'estimated tax' is zero.


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