# Open letter to Uber: Please explain 'rider fees'



## stylez (Nov 13, 2015)

Uber,

Please explain to me what the 'rider fee' is and why it is both subtracted and added to every trip. I don't understand why I get a popup after a ride stating the fare, then I look in my trip history to see only a fraction of it. For example, my last fare was over $13 and when I go back to look, my earnings are only $7 and change? Then, on a weekly scale, I pulled in over $1000 in fares and my earnings are $576.76? If you are 'only' taking 28%, where does the rest of the money go? Is it going to pay for my gas, my car payment, my auto insurance, my car maintenance, my City of Houston licensing fees, or my time? It doesn't appear to...

Do you know how 'demotivating' it is to see the progress towards my weekly goal climb over 60%, then, only a few minutes later, see it back to 58%, then a few minutes after that, see it at 57%? I mean you, whichever person is reading this email, do you PERSONALLY know what that feels like? Why should I push myself when it's midnight on a Sunday, heading into a holiday Monday, when I am tired and hungry, to drive drunk college kids back to their dorms safely for the next four hours, when there is no hope of me 'crossing the finish line' at the 4am pay cycle and I could just logout, go home, eat, shower, and sleep?

Is Uber really going to help me reach my financial goals? Only if they have a good explanation for those 'rider fees'...

Alan Lesselyong


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## ATX 22 (Jun 17, 2015)

Please post the uber reply


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

You need an open letter for that? Searching this forum, the answer has been posted a multitude of times. Why are you driving if you don't understand the pay structure?

The only fees added then subtracted are the Safe Rider Fees. It's added to the pickup, mileage, and time rate that the passenger pays. It is never (and has never been) part of your compensation. Direct to Uber. Period.

A typical fare would then look like this to the passenger:

Time: 5:32
Miles: 2.2

Passenger pays $1 for pickup, $0.72 for the time (5.57*$0.13), and $1.87 for the miles (2.2*$0.85). Uber also adds their Rider Fee of $1.60. Total to passenger = $1+$.72+$1.87+$1.6=*$5.19*. Uber then removes the $1.60 (Rider fee) and removes $0.72 (Uber Fee @20%) for a total in fees of *$2.32*. That leaves you, the driver, with *$2.87* ($5.19-$1.60-$0.72).


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

I could care less about SRF's. Only numbers that matter to me are X amount of dollars to X amount of miles driven and hours spent to get it.


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## ten25 (Oct 4, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> I could care less about SRF's. Only numbers that matter to me are X amount of dollars to X amount of miles driven and hours spent to get it.


This is true for the most part. However in markets where the minimum fare is lowered and the safe rides fee stays the same, it does effect our bottom line. Example, Kansas City safe ride fee is $1.90, min fare was $5.90, $3.20 to driver (or $3.00 on 75% structure), now it's $5.00 min fare, $1.90 safe ride fee and $2.48 to drivers on the 80% structure...


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ten25 said:


> This is true for the most part. However in markets where the minimum fare is lowered and the safe rides fee stays the same, it does effect our bottom line. Example, Kansas City safe ride fee is $1.90, min fare was $5.90, $3.20 to driver (or $3.00 on 75% structure), now it's $5.00 min fare, $1.90 safe ride fee and $2.48 to drivers on the 80% structure...


One way or another Uber always figures out a way to net X drivers $2 and change on min fares. I've heard some places it's only 80 cents, so we should see where it's eventually going for ALL.


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## SCdave (Jun 27, 2014)

Welcome to the Uber World.

The SRF is a part of the Total Amount the Rider pays on a Trip taken on the Uber TNC Platform. 100% of the SRF goes to Uber and 0% goes to the Driver.

The short explanation is that Uber does this because they Can. The long explanation is...well, read the short explanation.

Whatever explanation by an Uber CSR for charging and keeping 100% of the SRF will be a Cut 'n Paste corporate Uberspeak BS answer. Uber knows it's BS. The CSR knows it BS. After a few weeks of Driving, all Drivers know it's BS.

In review.
- Is the SRF a part of the Fare. Technically, uhhhh...no.
- Is the SRF a part of the Total Amount (Fare + SRF) that each Rider pays after each Trip, well, of course.
- Is the SRF only for safety related expenses Uber incurs (Wink-Wink, Sure, Right...don't make me slap you on this one).
- Is the SRF a Surcharge...a Flag Drop Fee...a Base Fee...only for Uber. Yes, just choose the one you want.
- Does the SRF effect your Driver bottom line. Is it money out of your pocket. Yup.

That's all I got. Enjoy.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

If Uber lowered SRF's, then that would attract more riders. More riders mean more money for Uber!


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

This is what a rider sees FYI

The difference between the subtotal and the total charged to the card is the SRF


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## stylez (Nov 13, 2015)

I can't post the reply because your forum thinks that I am posting a link, even though I have only met 100% of the requirements to post a link (screenshot)

Welcome to the world of UberPeople(dot)net, right?


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## ReviTULize (Sep 29, 2014)

I bet if Uber didn't have the SRF, rates would be at $3-4 per mile


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## stylez (Nov 13, 2015)

JimS said:


> You need an open letter for that? Searching this forum, the answer has been posted a multitude of times. Why are you driving if you don't understand the pay structure?
> 
> The only fees added then subtracted are the Safe Rider Fees. It's added to the pickup, mileage, and time rate that the passenger pays. It is never (and has never been) part of your compensation. Direct to Uber. Period.
> 
> ...


I am driving for Uber because even though I may not understand the ins and outs of the pay structure, their incentive rates and times, etc., I understand the bottom line: I'm getting paid better with this job than with any other job I've had in my life. My paycheck tomorrow will be for $826.76 and the only reason that it's that low is because I couldn't work most of Monday or Thursday or all of Tuesday and Wednesday because of the City of Houston regulations. I've never had a job where I could earn $826 for 4 days work.

Now, back to the central issue here, which you, the other forum members, and the Uber representatives don't seem to get: I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAFE RIDER FEES! I'll try again to post their and my replies below, along with a screenshot of the 'Rider Fee' subtraction and addition. Let me know what you think after taking a look at that...


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## stylez (Nov 13, 2015)

*Hashemi* (Uber)

Jan 18, 01:09

Hi Alan,

Thanks for writing in.

The Safe Rides Fee is collected to help defray some of our operating costs including among other things a background check process, incident response, and development of safety features in the app.

Similar to the service fee, it appears as a separate line item on your payment statement. Feel free to visit our Help Page for additional information.

Best regards,

*Hashemi*


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## stylez (Nov 13, 2015)

Hashemi,

You clearly did not answer my main question, to the point that I wonder if you even read it. Fine, don't tell me if you know how it feels or if you personally find unmotivating to see your progress bar slip backwards. But do answer my question as to why a fee would be subtracted then added back in at the same time.

I didn't even mention a 'Safe Rides Fee', which I think is added on top of the usual fare, not subtracted from it. Your mention of the Safe Rides Fee also makes me think that you didn't really read my email, but rather visually scanned it, saw the word 'Fee', and clicked to activate a formulaic response. Is that what you did, Hashemi?

Furthermore, if the 'Rider Fee' IS the same as the 'Safe Rides Fee', which I think it's NOT, your explanation still doesn't hold any weight. If the 'Rider Fee' is subtracted to cover YOUR operating costs (even though I am the one taking the rider, not you), the background check process (even though I paid for the City of Houston to run a warrant check and fingerprinting), incident response (whatever that means), and development of safety features in the app, then WHY WOULD THAT FEE BE ADDED BACK IN?!?

Just in case you still don't understand what I am referring to here, I will add a screen shot for you (below)...


So, I know for a fact that this client was charged over $22 ($22.23, if I remember correctly) for me to pick them up, drive to the dialysis center to pick up their 'memamma', drive to Popeyes for some chicken, then back to their Extended Stay Suite. The difference between the $22.23 and the $19.87 is the Safe Rides Fee that you refer to. So, the fare is $19.87 and I understand that Uber takes 28% off the top because the founder was smart enough to set up the system, he has to pay other people, like you to answer my questions and help drivers like me get theough the City of Houston regulations, pay for servers and developers, etc.

Now, my question:

WHY WAS THERE A RIDER FEE (DEDUCTION) -$2.39 AND A RIDER FEE (PAYMENT) of $2.39?

The only explanation that I can think of is that Uber is being deceptive in their fee assessmemt, the same way that my mom goes shopping at Neiman's, gets a discount of 20% on top of a 40% discount, and thinks that she's getting 60% off the original price, when it's really only 52% off.

So, what's the deal, Hashemi?

Alan Lesselyong


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## stylez (Nov 13, 2015)

Turns out it was $22.26, not $22.23 that the rider was charged.


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## Adbam (Jun 25, 2015)

JimS said:


> You need an open letter for that? Searching this forum, the answer has been posted a multitude of times. Why are you driving if you don't understand the pay structure?
> 
> The only fees added then subtracted are the Safe Rider Fees. It's added to the pickup, mileage, and time rate that the passenger pays. It is never (and has never been) part of your compensation. Direct to Uber. Period.
> 
> ...


If it's not part of our compensation why do we have to deduct it on our taxes? The srf is a tax dodge and a transportation company dodge. It's not right and Uber didn't always have the srf.


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## SD_Expedition (Dec 10, 2015)

So they apply the SRF into the drivers side of the transaction so it shows legaly? Then deduct it from there as a pax-driver-Uber cash flow. I think it's a legal reason IMO.


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## Adbam (Jun 25, 2015)

Yes so they can legally dodge transportation company rules and tax rules. They can also use it to lower rates but still make money.


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## stylez (Nov 13, 2015)

*Marc* (Uber)

Jan 19, 23:14

Hi Alan,

Marc here from advanced support.

Sorry to hear this. I completely understand how you feel here. To further explain this to you, let me use the sample trip you just sent in, the trip ID is 351aaea5-8f62-4eb8-b911-9c522c3e07ec.

Base Fare: $1.00
Distance (Miles): 12.84 mi * $0.87 = $11.17
Time: 69:58 * $0.11 = $7.70
Primary Subtotals: $19.87
Safe Rides Fee: $1.95
2% tax required by the City of Houston: $0.44
Total Fare: $22.26

The Rider Fee is composed of the Safe Rides Fee and the 2% tax required by the City of Houston, these amounts to $2.39. The Safe Rides Fee is as what my Hashemi sent in to you previously. This amount is charged directly to riders and is not taken against you, they are added just for transparency and documentation. This is also the reason why the app shows it being added and being removed as well.

The amount in the Primary Subtotals is where the Uber fee will be deducted, thus you are correctly paid for this trip. I hope I was able to help clarify. Please also know that we appreciate all the efforts that you're putting into making each and every ride full of fun and with excellent customer service.

Feel free to reach out if you have any concerns and we'll be happy to help.

Best,

*Marc*


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Ahh. Didn't know about the 2% Houston tax. Does that mean Uber is operating in every other city without kicking back ANY taxes?


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## SCdave (Jun 27, 2014)

Reason for the SRF by Uber. Because they can.

The Safe Rides Fee is a scam. It's a lie wrapped in a scam. It's is Uber & Lyft and their Investors laughing at Drivers, the Consumer, our Government, and our Judicial System.


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## IckyDoody (Sep 18, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> I could care less about SRF's. Only numbers that matter to me are X amount of dollars to X amount of miles driven and hours spent to get it.


What about the dollar to d-bag ratio?


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## IckyDoody (Sep 18, 2015)

ReviTULize said:


> I bet if Uber didn't have the SRF, rates would be at $3-4 per mile


This is the biggest danger of the srf, uber can drop the rates to zero and still earn plenty. Right now, we are like frogs in boiling water. We haven't jumped out because when we got in, the water was fine. The temperature rises with each rate cut. In many markets, it is already boiling (including mine @ 90 cents a mile). In Detroit, the water has all burned off and the frogs are flat out sizzling.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

IckyDoody said:


> What about the dollar to d-bag ratio?


*Good point! *I think we all factor that in after 10pm on the weekends to see if "it's worth it" or not.

Often, NOT! My own requirements per hour to drive after 10 pm go up, progressively. And yes, it is because of the "dollar to d-bag ratio."


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## andaas (May 19, 2015)

JimS said:


> Ahh. Didn't know about the 2% Houston tax. Does that mean Uber is operating in every other city without kicking back ANY taxes?


It's city by city, I think Chicago also has a tax.


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## ReviTULize (Sep 29, 2014)

IckyDoody said:


> This is the biggest danger of the srf, uber can drop the rates to zero and still earn plenty. Right now, we are like frogs in boiling water. We haven't jumped out because when we got in, the water was fine. The temperature rises with each rate cut. In many markets, it is already boiling (including mine @ 90 cents a mile). In Detroit, the water has all burned off and the frogs are flat out sizzling.


Tulsa is .80/mile, it's unbelievable


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ReviTULize said:


> Tulsa is .80/mile, it's unbelievable


You mean intolerable or unbearable don't you?


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## ReviTULize (Sep 29, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> You mean intolerable or unbearable don't you?


Eh...part time thing for me. I mostly only work when it's surging and only XL. Every now and then I'll go into "charity mode". But its rare.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ReviTULize said:


> Eh...part time thing for me. I mostly only work when it's surging and only XL. Every now and then I'll go into "charity mode". But its rare.


I begrudgingly switch to X/XL mode when stranded in outlying areas or the airports to pay for fuel to return. That's it.

And with XL my driving has been essentially forced to weekends only as there is little to no demand during the week.

Oh well. Sometimes I feel like doing it. Sometimes, like the last couple weeks, playoff football sez NOOOO.


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## SCdave (Jun 27, 2014)

IckyDoody said:


> This is the biggest danger of the srf, uber can drop the rates to zero and still earn plenty. Right now, we are like frogs in boiling water. We haven't jumped out because when we got in, the water was fine. The temperature rises with each rate cut. In many markets, it is already boiling (including mine @ 90 cents a mile). In Detroit, the water has all burned off and the frogs are flat out sizzling.


Yes, yes, yes...Uber would then actually be like an App Technology Company. Uber "charges" zero and takes a "fee". The Drivers then charge the Fare for the Driving Service, and receive 100% of the fare..

Drivers pay for everything, well, Driving related like the vehicle, gas, maintenance, repairs, and even the appropriate insurance.
Uber pays for App development, merchant processing fees, customer service support (email only of course), and ancillary expenses.

Wait...what...I'm confused now.


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## juanca16 (Dec 12, 2015)

Ubermaldomnas.jajaja asi se llama


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

scrurbscrud said:


> I could care less about SRF's. Only numbers that matter to me are X amount of dollars to X amount of miles driven and hours spent to get it.


The safe rider fee is specifically designed to bypass the pay structure that was originally put in place, that way Uber continues making money even after the rate decreases even though drivers make less and less so you should care about it.

Everything will change once we win the lawsuit and can start to collectively bargain those bs fees out of our fares again.

If Uber didnt put those fees in then they wouldn't be cutting our rates.


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## MJBull13 (Feb 27, 2016)

stylez said:


> I am driving for Uber because even though I may not understand the ins and outs of the pay structure, their incentive rates and times, etc., I understand the bottom line: I'm getting paid better with this job than with any other job I've had in my life. My paycheck tomorrow will be for $826.76 and the only reason that it's that low is because I couldn't work most of Monday or Thursday or all of Tuesday and Wednesday because of the City of Houston regulations. I've never had a job where I could earn $826 for 4 days work.
> 
> Now, back to the central issue here, which you, the other forum members, and the Uber representatives don't seem to get: I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAFE RIDER FEES! I'll try again to post their and my replies below, along with a screenshot of the 'Rider Fee' subtraction and addition. Let me know what you think after taking a look at that...


$826 in 4 days

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE

And you dont pay gas or pay taxes?

Must be so nice to be you

Total BS


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> I could care less about SRF's. Only numbers that matter to me are X amount of dollars to X amount of miles driven and hours spent to get it.


Do you still not care about SRF?


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

So, $826.76 payout, over how many miles driven and hours worked (not just app hours), from the time you leave your home or place of business to begin seeking fares until you return home?


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## Matty760 (Nov 9, 2015)

The SRF or now a "booking fee" as they now call it is always BS. Uber takes 20% commission from our fares for this, so wtf is this fee still doing there? easily answered its just a way for Uber to make more money off of us drivers. Lyft is way better at least for the fact that lyft includes the fee in the driver payout and then only takes their 20% of the total far with the SRF included. so when a Lyft fare says min of $4, that $4 is going to driver minus the lyft commission where with Uber the min fare say is $5.50, uber takes their SRF and then 20% from remaining fare and driver only get under $3 of that. so Really uber is robbing the pax for more money and not sharing with us drivers!


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## stylez (Nov 13, 2015)

MJBull13 said:


> $826 in 4 days
> 
> LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE
> 
> ...


Oh, really?!?

If you're going to call me a liar, you should present evidence that I said something that wasn't true, otherwise it's called slander, defames my good name, and it makes you look like an ass.


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## stylez (Nov 13, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> So, $826.76 payout, over how many miles driven and hours worked (not just app hours), from the time you leave your home or place of business to begin seeking fares until you return home?


When I got this, I didn't have to leave my home to begin seeking fares, although now I do because Uber Houston instituted a First In First Out (FIFO, i.e. taxi line) geofence around NRG stadium that puts me in a black whole of ride requests.

I see where you're going with your other questions, but I can't answer them... Does it really matter if I'm 'online' at home, taking care of otherthings, or asleep in my car near the airport, waiting for a request? Either way, I busted my ass, had 2 or 3 days off, and still made over $800 that week.


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## stylez (Nov 13, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Do you still not care about SRF?


I still don't care about the SRF/booking fee, just like Uber shouldn't care about my tips. Not my problem, man!


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

stylez said:


> When I got this, I didn't have to leave my home to begin seeking fares, although now I do because Uber Houston instituted a First In First Out (FIFO, i.e. taxi line) geofence around NRG stadium that puts me in a black whole of ride requests.
> 
> I see where you're going with your other questions, but I can't answer them... Does it really matter if I'm 'online' at home, taking care of otherthings, or asleep in my car near the airport, waiting for a request? Either way, I busted my ass, had 2 or 3 days off, and still made over $800 that week.


I can see why it may not matter to you, but there are others who tune in here, hoping to learn how much or little they can make driving for Uber, and a realistic look at what you actually profit per hour might help these folks make the right decisions.

Your profit was unlikely to have been $800. Most likely, that was your revenue. It is important for anyone who is considering doing this to realize that when people claim these earnings, be a bit skeptical and realize they are almost certainly talking about revenue, not profit. Ask to see screenshots of several payouts, and then find out how many total miles and hours were spent in seeking fares-from the time they leave their home or place of business until the time they return home after seeking fares.

I can't speak to your particular situation, but to earn a payout of $800-ish, most drivers are driving 800-ish miles, and some are driving 1600-ish miles, or even more. Expenses on 800-ish miles for most will be in the $400-ish range and 1600-ish miles in the $800-ish range. That means for most the profit before taxes is actually $400-ish. For those who put on 1600-sh miles, there is no profit. Take this profit of 400-ish to $0-ish and divide by the total number of hours spent that week seeking fares. That will give the pre-tax hourly wage. Realize that you will have to pay self-employment tax, plus the usual income tax, on any profits.

Is that hourly wage enough to justify driving complete strangers around as you use up your car?


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

stylez said:


> I still don't care about the SRF/booking fee, just like Uber shouldn't care about my tips. Not my problem, man!


Here's why you should care about Uber's booking fee:

Two of the fixed-amount components of the fare ( fixed amounts which do not vary according to trip length) charged to pax are (a) the booking fee and (b) the base fare.

Just over a year ago, Houston's UberX base fare was $1.90 and its booking fee was $1.00. Both of these amounts had in common the fact that they were fixed, flat fees. Where they differed was in that Uber paid drivers 80% of the base fare and kept 20%, whereas Uber did not share any of the booking fee with drivers and kept it all for itself.

Now, what do you do if you are Uber and want to take more money for yourself, _without raising fares to pax? _Answer, take more from the driver. Recently, Uber did precisely that by lowering the base fare from $1.90 to $1.00, and raised its booking fee _by almost exactly the same amount_, from $1 to $1.95. The net effect to the pax of these "adjustments" was a negligible five cents per ride. BUT, the effect on drivers and Uber itself was to _decrease_ the portion of the fare which Uber shares with its drivers, and _increase_ the portion of the fare it keeps for itself. Do you see?

You did 89 trips in the week you mention above. Before the booking fee / base fare switcheroo, you would have grossed $169.10 in base fares, and Uber would have earned $89 in booking fees. After the switcheroo, you grossed $89 in base fares and Uber earned $173.55 in booking fees. You just lost $80.10 in gross revenue to Uber, which now goes straight into their bank account. "Thanks very much", they say.

Still don't care about what Uber's doing with its stealthy booking fees?


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## ChortlingCrison (Mar 30, 2016)

It's the 28 million dollar question.


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## FrostyAZ (Feb 11, 2016)

Thx, elelegido. Couldn't have explained it any better. In most cases around the country, the pax costs weren't reduced much because goober increased their SRF substantially while simultaneously dropping the mileage charge. As an example, goober increased their PHX SRF from $1.00 to $1.80. That's an 80% mark-up for goober while they reduced gooberX down to a "temporary" $.75/mile.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

FrostyAZ said:


> Thx, elelegido. Couldn't have explained it any better. In most cases around the country, the pax costs weren't reduced much because goober increased their SRF substantially while simultaneously dropping the mileage charge. As an example, goober increased their PHX SRF from $1.00 to $1.80. That's an 80% mark-up for goober while they reduced gooberX down to a "temporary" $.75/mile.


I'm pretty sure that in the next round of rate cuts, more cities will see the base fare wiped out completely and replaced by booking fees of $2.95 or thereabouts.

Business is business, and Uber's just doing what businesses do - maximize revenue while minimizing costs; in this case, our pay. What I find slightly irritating though, is that they try to hoodwink drivers by telling drivers that they need not concern themselves with srf/booking fees, when they are one of the very vehicles that Uber is using to increase its take from drivers. And that drivers such as Stylez (through no fault of their own) buy into Uber's spiel and swallow it hook, line and sinker without question.


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## MJBull13 (Feb 27, 2016)

stylez said:


> Oh, really?!?
> 
> If you're going to call me a liar, you should present evidence that I said something that wasn't true, otherwise it's called slander, defames my good name, and it makes you look like an ass.


Just like MANY ignorant people on here, you quote "What I made" without factoring FUEL, MILEAGE, dead time, dead miles, etc , etc etc.
THIS is why Uber continues to profit at the expense of its employees who are in fact making NOTHING on Uberx and less than nothing on Uberpool.

Keep drinking the Koolaid like a good little Uber slave


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## William1964 (Jul 28, 2015)

Two words colon

Money grab.

The writer fee is a profit tool nothing else. It's like the red light camera tickets.


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