# Uber drivers are employees. Stand up for your rights



## AB5 (Mar 29, 2020)

Uber drivers are the core of there business which makes drivers employees. Just because you want to hide from the IRS, students loans and child support does not change this. How many of you so could IC get SSI VA benefits Food stamps and don't report the earnings? Wake you are a employee of Uber.


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## Fuber-driver (12 mo ago)

Your on point bro 😎


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## pwnzor (Jun 27, 2017)

This is wrong on so many levels. 

Employees don't drive their own cars around and pay for their own gas. Employees drive the company car and have a fuel card. 

The government is wrong, once again. Just trying to destroy business at it's most fundamental level by obscuring the line between what's real and what isn't.


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## brett (Jun 25, 2014)

pwnzor said:


> This is wrong on so many levels.
> 
> Employees don't drive their own cars around and pay for their own gas. Employees drive the company car and have a fuel card.
> 
> The government is wrong, once again. Just trying to destroy business at it's most fundamental level by obscuring the line between what's real and what isn't.


 so you are James Vs. Uber now? let the court decide?


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## pwnzor (Jun 27, 2017)

brett said:


> so you are James Vs. Uber now? let the court decide?


Don't know who that is, sorry. The gubmint has stepped in and forced a change to the basic model of the business, thereby affecting everyone who engages in this type of commerce. 

You're contractors who are being afforded "rights" of employees which directly affects the bottom line of a contractor-based business. 

The government is the one going balls-deep on you, not Uber.


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## brett (Jun 25, 2014)

pwnzor said:


> Don't know who that is, sorry. The gubmint has stepped in and forced a change to the basic model of the business, thereby affecting everyone who engages in this type of commerce.
> 
> You're contractors who are being afforded "rights" of employees which directly affects the bottom line of a contractor-based business.
> 
> The government is the one going balls-deep on you, not Uber.


thats the case that will determine if we are employees.. you don't follow Shannon Liss? etc.. Uber Vs. James is the big lawsuit.. till then shut up about being an employee, nobody knows till that case goes through.


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## Buckiemohawk (Jun 23, 2015)

I dont want to be an employee of Rideshare I want to be paid correctly at 80/20 percentage of all rides with 7 dollar min payout on all rides under 1 miles. Fare calculation using road mileage and not air mileage. Any long distance trip over 1hour i can set standards as a tip as long it meets the minimum charge. I can reject all fares and fare can be giving to me over 15 minutes away not paying distance for mileage can be outright rejected and canceled.


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

AB5 said:


> you are a employee of Uber.


Oh shit… ima get fired for being late then.
😏


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## brett (Jun 25, 2014)

Uber's Guber said:


> Oh shit… ima get fired for being late then.
> 😏





Uber's Guber said:


> Oh shit… ima get fired for being late then.
> 😏


gotta rub one out faster, and not get caught!


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## brett (Jun 25, 2014)

Why anyone would wanna work for such an A+++ company with 0 complaints is beyond me.. what a great company! https://www.bbb.org/us/ca/san-francisco/profile/transportation/uber-technologies-1116-438996


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

AB5 said:


> Uber drivers are the core of there business which makes drivers employees


(By the way it would be _their _business). I respectfully ask for an explanation. If I do gig work part time, manage to make $25 to $35 per hour, and have benefits from my day job, why would I want to be an employee? Serious question, no insults needed.


AB5 said:


> Just because you want to hide from the IRS, students loans and child support does not change this


Did you know that starting this year (2022) Uber must give a 1099k to anyone making over $600? Your insulting argument to drivers has expired.


AB5 said:


> How many of you so could IC get SSI VA benefits Food stamps and don't report the earnings?


SSI disability, early SS retirement etc.etc. allow people to make up to approx $17k to $18k without reduced benefits. If the driver didn't get a 1099k by GROSSING 20k then they would have still qualified anyway. If they did get a 1099k their earnings WERE reported wether they filed taxes or not.

My guess is that you would attract more people to your viewpoint if you could provide a clear explanation of the benefits to being an employee and stop using derogatory, false reasons that someone would disagree with you.


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

AB5 said:


> Uber drivers are the core of there business which makes drivers employees. Just because you want to hide from the IRS, students loans and child support does not change this. How many of you so could IC get SSI VA benefits Food stamps and don't report the earnings? Wake you are a employee of Uber.


You'd be better served to use a proofreader if you're going to engage with the media.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Employee - W2
Contractor - 1099


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

If you want to have a government driving job just apply at the post office.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

AB5 said:


> Uber drivers are the core of there business which makes drivers employees. Just because you want to hide from the IRS, students loans and child support does not change this. How many of you so could IC get SSI VA benefits Food stamps and don't report the earnings? Wake you are a employee of Uber.


I don’t want to be
Love my .57 cents tax deduction and Sirius and car washes


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

pwnzor said:


> This is wrong on so many levels.
> 
> Employees don't drive their own cars around and pay for their own gas. Employees drive the company car and have a fuel card.
> 
> The government is wrong, once again. Just trying to destroy business at it's most fundamental level by obscuring the line between what's real and what isn't.


You're wrong.

There are millions of employees who use their own vehicles to do their jobs including Dominos drivers, sales reps, etc.

As far as the govt being wrong is concerned, they're biggest mistake in this whole thing has been to allow this IC scam to go on as long as it has.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Rampage said:


> If you want to have a government driving job just apply at the post office.


Govt driving job? Who said anything about a govt driving job?


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> Didn’t I see a “nationalize Uber” sign a few posts up?


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

I agree with AB5. Think Drivers are too hung up on the independence thing, a job shouldnt be about picking and cherry picking rides, you need a boss and you need to accept any ride at any location, otherwise Many riders, especially those in lower income areas get screwed.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

The status quo shouldn't be allowed to continue for another day. The govt needs to step in and regulate the gig economy or declare gig workers are employees.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

e


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## Eman1210 (Sep 22, 2021)

brett said:


> thats the case that will determine if we are employees.. you don't follow Shannon Liss? etc.. Uber Vs. James is the big lawsuit.. till then shut up about being an employee, nobody knows till that case goes through.


WOW, you guys all sound like crybabies. And I’ll say it straight. Uber is supposed to be a technology company, app based. we as the drivers are supposed to be contractors who use their app for services we are 1099 employees of ourself not of Uber. But here’s the issue , Uber tries to Be our employer if we cherry pick they ding us, if we don’t accept rides they ding us or just suspend us which they shouldn’t. We are not there employees. That’s why Uber gets sued so much and it will continue until they realize they are not out employer. See all you people who voted for prop 22 ( California )we just plain dumb. Anytime Uber and Lyft come together to spend $300 million to get a prop the past and make it sound good for the driver and make it look good for the driver for the first few months and then backpedal and now we’re stuck with dog shit we deserve with people voted for until all Uber driver stand up together and grow some balls and shut Uber down for like not just a day like for a week and a 10 tire US let them know that we have a drivers are the face of the company nothing can ever change


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## ubergrind (May 23, 2017)

There definitely needs to be some regulation. I think there’s a hybrid model that provides some collective bargaining to protect the drivers and to also allow for the independent contractor model to continue. As an independent contractor, I should be free to determine if the trips works for me, going the direction I want at a fair rate. No more than an 80/ 20 split and preferably a 85/15 split. I believe the cab business has always been a 8-10% margin business so giving Uber/Lyft more than that is nonsense.

Uber is not public service. If you can’t afford the trip you should be on the train or taking the bus. I just laugh at these millennials going to brunch to get their avocado toast but are constantly bellyaching that the rates are too high and the drivers are making all the money. Going to Walmart and you don’t have car … guess what take the bus and plan accordingly.

I had to recently school a passenger who had returned from Seattle complaining about how much “his” Uber cost in Seattle. That’s a heavily regulated market. A drivers time and and cost of operating a vehicle needs to Be included as part of the fare calculation

If anything an Uber/Lyft should be more expensive than a cab. We get zero benefits of economics of scale on gas/ maintenance that a fleet owner gets. Dropping a passenger off two zones over ? There’s a fee. Attempting to get a cab to go the city ten years ago would be a difficult proposition since it just doesn’t make sense for the to drive out that way. Yet , Rideshare dominates the suburbs and has convinced the driver to take a pay cut by rebalancing the rate and offering a half baked bonus that is really just a reduction in fair.

I could go on and on, but if you give me the details of the job and a consistent split with some transparency, I’ve done this job in enough markets that I know how to be profitable for the hours that I choose to work.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Buckiemohawk said:


> I dont want to be an employee of Rideshare I want to be paid correctly at 80/20 percentage of all rides with 7 dollar min payout on all rides under 1 miles. Fare calculation using road mileage and not air mileage. Any long distance trip over 1hour i can set standards as a tip as long it meets the minimum charge. I can reject all fares and fare can be giving to me over 15 minutes away not paying distance for mileage can be outright rejected and canceled.


I want free hookers and cocaine just like travis too


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> The govt needs to step in and regulate the gig economy or declare gig workers are employees.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Uber's Guber said:


> View attachment 661237


The govt has played a large role in this mess by supplying the gig companies with a nearly limitless supply of Third World immigrant replacement drivers. They've also looked the other way while the gig companies treat their drivers like employees (zero transparency, ultimatum contracts, etc).

My preference would be for the govt to mandate FULL TRANSPARENCY in all dealings with the drivers, mandate decent pay rates, limit the percentage the companies can take, abolish penalties for cherrypicking, and abolish the companies' kangaroo courts.

To be more specific about cherrypicking the govt should BAN both rewards and punishments based on AR. This includes banning Top Dasher and other "rewards" based on AR.

When I say "full transparency" I mean FULL, including the companies' top secret dispatch algorithms.

I believe that the above regulations is a better system than going the W2 employee route.

The bottom line is the status quo has to end.


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## ObeyTheNumbers (7 mo ago)

AB5 said:


> Uber drivers are the core of there business which makes drivers employees. Just because you want to hide from the IRS, students loans and child support does not change this. How many of you so could IC get SSI VA benefits Food stamps and don't report the earnings? Wake you are a employee of Uber.


I am NOT an employee of Uber. I am and want to remain, as most Uber drivers want to remain, independent contractors. For many reasons, from chosing whom we will take into our personal space, to chosing what rides we will do and when.

Uber is NOT a taxi business. It's a ridesharing business. It's gotten the widespread approval of major governments because it's attempting to resolve a major problem many big cities and areas have. GRIDLOCK. Ubers goal is to leverage as much as the general public as possible into SHARING their extra seats to take others where they need to go.

The proof is in the compensation. Uber pays drivers in only one direction. They pay more for that one direction IF THEY NEED more drivers and or a particular vehicle type because they want you to return to a hotspot and do more.

They use SURGE Zones as a means to tempt those with their driver app off to turn it on and take a rider along with them by dangling an extra cash bonus during peaks of high demand

Uber is using the taxi model of operation, meaning the driver is getting paid enough to return to pickup point, only as a stepping stone to the paid only enough one way, ridesharing model which basically is "You we're going that direction anyway, so take someone with you an get paid for it."

Why should the customer pay for the return trip for the driver? You call the customer and make an extra upfront deal if they want a ride that far or that bad. As long as your still on the meter your covered by the commercial insurance your required to have and report the cash tip to Uncle Sammy at the end of the year, it's not a problem.

Ain't capitalism great?

The delusion occurs to some drivers that they are making good money but now that they are not, say when there are too many drivers now and want Uber to be an employer thus continue with their income or provide benefits, job security etc.

This is your socialist advocates talking.

You want all that job security etc.? Then get a real job. We like the fun of being our own bosses, having awesome days and willing to take the bad ones with them. It's like a child finally taking the training wheels off, we are doing it ourselves and don't need or want government intervention. If we don't like the compensation or can make even more, we find an angle and get our own taxi licenses.

Ridesharing cannot operate as a employer and solve the many complex problems of who wants to work when and where, where they are or going to with the millions who are requesting transportation at any second, that's why there is a alogrithm. Anyplace that forced Uber to become a "taxi business" the drivers are very unhappy and making less, forced to work set schedules and all that.

And quite frankly, FU for insulting Uber drivers that they are tax evading, non student loans or child support deadbeats. Uber drivers get a 1099 from Uber sent to the IRS also and we have to pay our taxes or go to jail. Obviously anything we owe is also accounted for at that time.

The worse evasion is being done by taxi drivers actually, all cash. Either rent a car per shift or 50/50 after gas. Nothing being reported at all. Only need to have a license and be approved by the insurance company.

If you need to start out a topic, by being a troll, to suggest a change to improve the situation, then my friend you've already lost. By not understanding what Uber is CLEARLY shows you don't know what your talking about.

This is why I don't like posting online, trolls.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> I am NOT an employee of Uber. I am and want to remain, as most Uber drivers want to remain, independent contractors. For many reasons, from chosing whom we will take into our personal space, to chosing what rides we will do and when.
> 
> Uber is NOT a taxi business. It's a ridesharing business. It's gotten the widespread approval of major governments because it's attempting to resolve a major problem many big cities and areas have. GRIDLOCK. Ubers goal is to leverage as much as the general public as possible into SHARING their extra seats to take others where they need to go.
> 
> ...


Your post is so full of falsehoods it'll take time to address each of them. Maybe I'll find some time later.


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## everythingsuber (Sep 29, 2015)

pwnzor said:


> This is wrong on so many levels.
> 
> Employees don't drive their own cars around and pay for their own gas. Employees drive the company car and have a fuel card.
> 
> The government is wrong, once again. Just trying to destroy business at it's most fundamental level by obscuring the line between what's real and what isn't.


Actually pretty much every court in the world can tell you any number of factors that make uber your employer. It's not the government it's the courts.


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## MrPurple (Apr 1, 2016)

dnlbaboof said:


> I agree with AB5.


Especially all those who lost their jobs because of it?


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## MrPurple (Apr 1, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Your post is so full of falsehoods it'll take time to address each of them. Maybe I'll find some time later.


What you mean is that you need to go digging for the union bullshit points you'll regurgitate as "facts".


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

MrPurple said:


> What you mean is that you need to go digging for the union bullshit points you'll regurgitate as "facts".


Sorry to disappoint you buddy but I don't get my points from unions.


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## MrPurple (Apr 1, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Sorry to disappoint you buddy but I don't get my points from unions.


Then it should be extra entertaining, rather than just sad, when you post your rebuttal.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> I am NOT an employee of Uber. I am and want to remain, as most Uber drivers want to remain, independent contractors. For many reasons, from chosing whom we will take into our personal space, to chosing what rides we will do and when.


You're closer to an employee than you are to a true business owner who's truly his own boss. The companies' definition of transparency is a joke. You work under Uber's rules and rates. You sign THEIR contract, they don't sign yours. It's their way or the highway. NO negotiations are allowed. They change their pay and rules on a whim and if you don't sign the addendums you're terminated. Meanwhile, most "shackled" employees ARE allowed to negotiate with their employers.

It's debatable what percentage of drivers want to "remain" ICs. The fact that 97+% quit every year shows major dissatisfaction with the job. A more accurate statement is that many if not most drivers who sign up are attracted to what they BELIEVE being an IC means (good pay, flexibility, and freedom). Once they start driving most newbies rapidly become disillusioned by the failure of gig-work to live up to their expectations of what being an IC means and they quit.

Your "choices" are limited to what the algo decides to offer you. If it decides to offer you a steady stream of trash rides that's what you'll be stuck "choosing" from. Because the companies believe in providing as little transparency as they can possibly get away with you have to make those choices without pertinent info.



ObeyTheNumbers said:


> Uber is NOT a taxi business. It's a ridesharing business. It's gotten the widespread approval of major governments because it's attempting to resolve a major problem many big cities and areas have. GRIDLOCK. Ubers goal is to leverage as much as the general public as possible into SHARING their extra seats to take others where they need to go.


It's a taxi business that doesn't do street hails. It INCREASES gridlock. A significant amount of time and miles are driven with NO ONE in the back seat. Drivers often have to travel many miles to pick up a pax. For you to compare that to carpooling or slug lines is a joke. If Uber's goal was to leverage empty backseats they've failed miserably. As far as getting approval is concerned a combination of public demand and lots of "lobbying" of pols eventually resulted in reluctant approval of rideshare.



ObeyTheNumbers said:


> Why should the customer pay for the return trip for the driver?


Because in business the CUSTOMER is supposed to bear the cost of providing a service, which means the drivers are supposed to be paid a high enough wage to cover the expense of return trips. Unfortunately they're not paid enough. For most of Uber's history the drivers have subsidized the cheap pax fares by being paid 1970s taxi rates. The primary reason the companies have been able to get away with paying drivers artificially low rates is they HIDE THE DESTINATIONS from the drivers. Showing destinations in advance would cost Uber and Lyft a fortune in higher pay for drivers. This is why both companies have been fiercely opposed to showing destinations to the drivers.


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## MrPurple (Apr 1, 2016)

This _is_ sad.



Nats121 said:


> It's debatable what percentage of drivers want to "remain" ICs. The fact that 97+% quit every year shows major dissatisfaction with the job. A more accurate statement is that many if not most drivers who sign up are attracted to what they BELIEVE being an IC means (good pay, flexibility, and freedom). Once they start driving most newbies rapidly become disillusioned by the failure of gig-work to live up to their expectations of what being an IC means and they quit.


Based on what?


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

MrPurple said:


> This _is_ sad.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on what?


Your question is incomplete.


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## MrPurple (Apr 1, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Your question is incomplete.


Ok. WTF are you talking about?


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> The status quo shouldn't be allowed to continue for another day. The govt needs to step in and regulate the gig economy or declare gig workers are employees.





Nats121 said:


> The status quo shouldn't be allowed to continue for another day. The govt needs to step in and regulate the gig economy or declare gig workers are employees.


Hi, I’m the new govt mandated supervisor with Uber. Here is the shift you are going to work today. It’s a split, I hope you packed a lunch. Oh yeah, why was your lunch break 31 minutes? It’s clearly stated that you are allot 30. Consider this your first warning.


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## gwill99 (Oct 17, 2020)

AB5 said:


> Uber drivers are the core of there business which makes drivers employees. Just because you want to hide from the IRS, students loans and child support does not change this. How many of you so could IC get SSI VA benefits Food stamps and don't report the earnings? Wake you are a employee of Uber.


The core of Uber's business (and the core of my business) is the PAX/customer, not the drivers. Uber is your vendor partner, not an employer. What Uber controls is the price, which isn't technically controlled by Uber as much as it's controlled by the market (Supply/demand). If you really wanted to "stick it to the man", you'd go on and create your own ridesharing app in order to compete, and then realize why prices are the way they are. In other words, you need Uber more than they need you.

Lastly, I have a registered s-corp in North Carolina, and I pay myself out as a w-2 employee. Uber is only one of three income streams. When it comes to cash flow, the customer pays their fare into the app. Part of the fare goes to Uber, part of the fare goes to my business. I consider Uber as a vendor, and I categorize the expense as a technology fee in my accounting. Uber doesn't pay me. I pay Uber a fee for using their app, and I pay myself for doing the job. So no. I'm not an Uber employee.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Rampage said:


> Hi, I’m the new govt mandated supervisor with Uber. Here is the shift you are going to work today. It’s a split, I hope you packed a lunch. Oh yeah, why was your lunch break 31 minutes? It’s clearly stated that you are allot 30. Consider this your first warning.



If given a choice I'd prefer a govt-regulated version of the system we have now with major improvements in driver pay, transparency, and treatment of the drivers over being a W2 employee.

Having said that, I find it funny how opponents of AB5 make being an employee of the gig companies sound like slavery.

There's something called competition, and if gig workers became W2 employees new companies would open for business in California, creating plenty of competition for drivers. As a result of the increased competition companies would have no choice but to offer at least some degree of flexibility or they'd go out of business due to lack of drivers.

In other words if Uber was to crack the whip they way you and others claim, their drivers would take a walk and work for one or more of their competitors.


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## pwnzor (Jun 27, 2017)

Bottom line: if you don't like what you get paid......





WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE. Simple as that. There are so many good paying VACANT jobs out there, it's ridiculous that anybody would settle for less than they "deserve".

Of course, if you actually _*deserved *_higher income, you'd be making it. So suck it up, buttercup. You're where you are because you put yourself there. Just ask any of my African-native or Bosnian-native drivers about fat, spoiled Americans who don't know how f*cking good they have it.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

gwill99 said:


> The core of Uber's business (and the core of my business) is the PAX/customer, not the drivers. Uber is your vendor partner, not an employer. What Uber controls is the price, which isn't technically controlled by Uber as much as it's controlled by the market (Supply/demand). If you really wanted to "stick it to the man", you'd go on and create your own ridesharing app in order to compete, and then realize why prices are the way they are. In other words, you need Uber more than they need you.
> 
> Lastly, I have a registered s-corp in North Carolina, and I pay myself out as a w-2 employee. Uber is only one of three income streams. When it comes to cash flow, the customer pays their fare into the app. Part of the fare goes to Uber, part of the fare goes to my business. I consider Uber as a vendor, and I categorize the expense as a technology fee in my accounting. Uber doesn't pay me. I pay Uber a fee for using their app, and I pay myself for doing the job. So no. I'm not an Uber employee.


Lets cut thru the BS. 

Uber and Lyft have been paying drivers artificially low rates for years. In order to continue to do so, Uber and Lyft need BOTH of the following to continue. If they were to lose EITHER of the two, driver pay would rise significantly...

1) Hide destinations from the drivers.

2) Perpetually high rates of Third World immigration in order to keep up with the sky-high driver turnover rate.

Again, if EITHER of the above were to end, driver pay would rise significantly.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> If given a choice I'd prefer a govt-regulated version of the system we have now with major improvements in driver pay, transparency, and treatment of the drivers over being a W2 employee.
> 
> Having said that, I find it funny how opponents of AB5 make being an employee of the gig companies sound like slavery.
> 
> ...


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## ObeyTheNumbers (7 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> You're closer to an employee than you are to a true business owner who's truly his own boss. The companies' definition of transparency ....


I am an independent contractor just like a taxi driver, a real estate agent in a brokers office, a hair stylist in a beauty shop or a sub contractor under a GC.

Why aren't you pitching to them?

Your playing on Uber drivers dissatisfaction that ridesharing isn't what they expected.

Guess what? 95% turnover rate in the taxi business also. Why? Because it's not what a lot of people expected neither, they just do it in the meanwhile between jobs or as a side hussle. Holy sh*t same with Uber!

Some of us are lucky that we live in or near a high volume area and can sort of make above average income than those just driving by.

Again in Ubers eyes it's trying to get as much as the general public as possible to provide rides to others going in the same direction. It's more efficient that way as people typically want to go all at nearly the same time periods during the day. Why Uber gives us two free directional trips a day, one to work and one from work. The others are given upon a long trip.

Again Uber wouldn't have gotten major government approval to override local taxi medallion system rackets if overpopulation wasn't a pressing matter.

For the most part the cash taxis still rule the night, the bars, the drug dealing, the pimping and all that other nefarious sh*t that union type people are likely controlling.

Us Ubers tend to take the clean people who are not trying to hide.


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## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> Lets cut thru the BS.
> 
> Uber and Lyft have been paying drivers artificially low rates for years. In order to continue to do so, Uber and Lyft need BOTH of the following to continue. If they were to lose EITHER of the two, driver pay would rise significantly...
> 
> ...


If you drive for UPS for an example:

You


pwnzor said:


> Bottom line: if you don't like what you get paid......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*What’s the Difference Between Employees and Independent Contractors?*
When weighing the differences between employee contracts and independent contracts, keep these questions in mind.
The following will help you see the main differences between the two types of employment, giving you perspective when applying to future jobs.

Is there control over the worker and how they perform their job?
Are the business aspects of the job controlled by the company? (This includes aspects like worker pay, reimbursement of expenses, and the cost of tools and supplies.)
Is there a written contract?
Are there employee benefits such as pensions, company insurance, sick days, or vacation pay?
Is the working relationship in perpetuity?
Does the worker fulfill a key aspect of the business model?


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## Gman67 (Aug 19, 2021)

gwill99 said:


> The core of Uber's business (and the core of my business) is the PAX/customer, not the drivers. Uber is your vendor partner, not an employer. What Uber controls is the price, which isn't technically controlled by Uber as much as it's controlled by the market (Supply/demand). If you really wanted to "stick it to the man", you'd go on and create your own ridesharing app in order to compete, and then realize why prices are the way they are. In other words, you need Uber more than they need you.
> 
> Lastly, I have a registered s-corp in North Carolina, and I pay myself out as a w-2 employee. Uber is only one of three income streams. When it comes to cash flow, the customer pays their fare into the app. Part of the fare goes to Uber, part of the fare goes to my business. I consider Uber as a vendor, and I categorize the expense as a technology fee in my accounting. Uber doesn't pay me. I pay Uber a fee for using their app, and I pay myself for doing the job. So no. I'm not an Uber employee.


WOW! Finally someone else who actually understand how it works. Thank you!


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> Uber is NOT a taxi business. It's a ridesharing business


I believe it was Waze that tried true rideshare, i.e. "I'm going from Point A to Point B, let me see if I can find someone else wanting to go that way" but not sure if they still do it.



ObeyTheNumbers said:


> It's gotten the widespread approval of major governments because it's attempting to resolve a major problem many big cities and areas have. GRIDLOCK


You missed the many articles and studies that show Uber/Lyft have actually increased gridlock and congestion in cities.



ObeyTheNumbers said:


> It's gotten the widespread approval of major governments because *Uber paid off/bribed government officials to rewrite laws they previously broke*


You missed something. 




ObeyTheNumbers said:


> ridesharing model which basically is "You we're going that direction anyway, so take someone with you an get paid for it."


I addressed this above.

If what you say were true, no one would go into any areas they didn't want to go to because "they're not going that direction" (to paraphrase you) but if you read this Board at all, one of the major gripes of drivers is going to areas (da hood, faraway destinations etc.) they didn't want to go to.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> If given a choice I'd prefer a govt-regulated version of the system we have now with major improvements in driver pay, transparency, and treatment of the drivers over being a W2 employee.
> 
> Having said that, I find it funny how opponents of AB5 make being an employee of the gig companies sound like slavery.
> 
> ...


What makes you think any of the gig app companies would hire you?


----------



## Gman67 (Aug 19, 2021)

AB5 said:


> Uber drivers are the core of there business which makes drivers employees. Just because you want to hide from the IRS, students loans and child support does not change this. How many of you so could IC get SSI VA benefits Food stamps and don't report the earnings? Wake you are a employee of Uber.


Hmm, I'm Uber's employee? Best boss I've ever had then. I just want to thank the management for allowing me to come in to work any time I want and leave any time I want. I also appreciate them allowing me to take a 3 hour lunch everyday and giving me the freedom to interrupt my schedule no matter how busy it is when my favorite sports team is playing on TV or one of my best buddies calls wanting to go for an all night bar crawl. I'm sure they don't mind when I choose only to work when that map is lit up bright red and I'm positioned right in the center of it or they entice me with one of those sweet quests. The fact that my work habits are so erratic that even the best algo ever developed couldn't predict when I might show up doesn't bother the boss one bit. When I show up for work and I'm.....just not feeling it that day, so I head home after declining half a dozen rides, you are so understanding. When the wife feels frisky and I'm summoned home, you just give my a wry smile and fist bump and say see ya uhhhh, when I see ya. Also, thanks for paying me everyday and even five times per day if I prefer. And let's not forgot last year when I suddenly didn't show up for work for six months without calling while hiked the Appy Trail, you held my job for me. I just logged on and went to work like I'd never been gone. SO HERE'S TO MY UBER BOSS, THE BEST I'VE EVER HAD!


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> What makes you think any of the gig app companies would hire you?


Maybe you can tell me why they wouldn't hire me.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Maybe you can tell me why they wouldn't hire me.


What is your AR?


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> I am an independent contractor just like a taxi driver, a real estate agent in a brokers office, a hair stylist in a beauty shop or a sub contractor under a GC.
> 
> Why aren't you pitching to them?


If you were to check the arrangement of their jobs you'd discover that most of them are much closer to being employees than they are to being actual business owners.

A barber shop I've gone to a couple of times "rents" out one of their chairs to "independent contractors". One day when the owner was off the "IC" barber admitted he was for all intents and purposes an employee. He said the owner was the "boss" and dictated pretty much everything.

The gig companies didn't invent employee misclassification, they refined it. It was occurring long before Uber existed.



ObeyTheNumbers said:


> Your playing on Uber drivers dissatisfaction that ridesharing isn't what they expected.
> 
> Guess what? 95% turnover rate in the taxi business also. Why? Because it's not what a lot of people expected neither, they just do it in the meanwhile between jobs or as a side hussle. Holy sh*t same with Uber!


Unlike rideshare drivers, the vast majority of taxi drivers had to lease their vehicles at high rates. This put a lot of pressure on the drivers to earn enough money just to break even. The combination of that and the cronyism and corruption that often occurred with dispatch and it was hardly shocking that there was high turnover.

Travis the Terrible Kalanick strongly pitched Uber to taxi drivers as a great alternative that would free the drivers from the "shackles of the evil taxi industry". It turned out to be a big fat lie.

I've already rebutted the rest of your falsehoods in my previous post so I'm not gonna do it here.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Maybe you can tell me why they wouldn't hire me.


Low AR?

Constantly whining and complaining: problem employee?

Union agitator?

Just some guesses.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> What is your AR?


I don't know but it may be less than a whole number.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> Low AR?
> 
> Constantly whining and complaining: problem employee?
> 
> ...


Low AR could be a possible obstacle but the other stuff isn't applicable.

If Uber chose not hire me because of low AR that would eliminate many competent drivers from being hired as well. I doubt they'd hold that against me but if they did I'd work for one of the other companies.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Low AR could be a possible obstacle but the other stuff isn't applicable.
> 
> If Uber chose not hire me because of low AR that would eliminate many competent drivers from being hired as well. I doubt they'd hold that against me but if they did I'd work for one of the other companies.


Guessing they are not looking for competent drivers as employees.

Guessing they are looking to hire drivers who accept every offer without hesitation.

After that, they may weed out the incompetent drivers.

When AB5 became a thing, I became a TD, accepted every offer from GH and UE two days a month to have near perfect driver stats.

I was prepared for the horrors of AB5.

Yep.

Guessing your low AR and combative attitude would preclude your employment.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Low AR could be a possible obstacle but the other stuff isn't applicable.
> 
> If Uber chose not hire me because of low AR that would eliminate many competent drivers from being hired as well. I doubt they'd hold that against me but if they did I'd work for one of the other companies.


What is your completion rate?


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> What is your completion rate?


Don't know but it's never been an issue.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> Guessing your low AR and combative attitude would preclude your employment.


Again, I doubt my AR would be an issue and as far as being an agitator that's not applicable here. I don't agitate at my place of employment because it's a good company and my bosses let me do my thing. I don't make a barrel of money but I work with good people.


----------



## ObeyTheNumbers (7 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> I've already rebutted the rest of your falsehoods....


This is what Uber was designed to prevent.










"I've seen the future brother and it's murder" - Leonard Cohen


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> Guessing they are not looking for competent drivers as employees.
> 
> Guessing they are looking to hire drivers who accept every offer without hesitation.
> 
> ...


If drivers ever become employees you can bet your ass that new companies will open for business. At least three have already said they will if AB5 ever gets implemented.

With the entrance of new companies into California Uber would be faced with much more competition than they've ever had for pax and for drivers. Thus they'd have no choice but to be competitive in both pay and working conditions for their drivers or shut down due to lack of drivers.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Again, I doubt my AR would be an issue and as far as being an agitator that's not applicable here. I don't agitate at my place of employment because it's a good company and my bosses let me do my thing. I don't make a barrel of money but I work with good people.


So,

Which parts of your stats would the algorithm recommend to their human counterparts as a driver that should be offered employment?

Seems that you are forcefully advocating for employee status like a wolf.

When confronted with the reality of an HR department, you respond like a sheep.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> Which parts of your stats would the algorithm recommend to their human counterparts as a driver that should be offered employment?


My good employee track record. If they wanted to know more they'd see my gig-work approval ratings have always been high and I've never been disciplined by the any of the gig companies I driven for.

As far as advocating for employee status is concerned I've never done that on this website. I've always said I prefer the current system with major improvements over employee status. I still feel that way.

But I've also said that employee status for gig workers would not be the boogeyman some of you make it out to be. Competition for drivers would force even the worst gig companies to treat their drivers with at least some degree of respect or go out of business.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> View attachment 661442


Most immigrant gig-workers arrive here on airplanes.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> My good employee track record. If they wanted to know more they'd see my gig-work approval ratings have always been high and I've never been disciplined by the any of the gig companies I driven for.
> 
> As far as advocating for employee status is concerned I've never done that on this website. I've always said I prefer the current system with major improvements over employee status. I still feel that way.
> 
> But I've also said that employee status for gig workers would not be the boogeyman some of you make it out to be. Competition for drivers would force even the worst gig companies to treat their drivers with some degree of respect or go out of business.


OMG.

Your "worker" status is determined by an algorithm.

Is your AR 100%

Is your CR at 100%?

OMG

You keep whining and advocating for employee status and union representation.

Seems to me that you would not be able to agitate for union status because no app company gonna hire you.

What you gonna do then? File a lawsuit cuz some gig app company finds you as a liability?


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> OMG.
> 
> Your "worker" status is determined by an algorithm.
> 
> ...


This conversation has gone as far as it's gonna go. I've stated my points clearly and I'm not gonna argue over the same points again and again, especially with someone who's intellectually dishonest.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> This conversation has gone as far as it's gonna go. I've stated my points clearly and I'm not gonna argue over the same points again and again, especially with someone who's intellectually dishonest.


So, my AR was under 15 percent on DD and I was invited into the LOP program many months ago.

Now, I have been invited into a UE Large Order Program with an AR less than ten percent.

No wonder you are bitter.

Seems no one wanna offer you extremely profitable offers.

Seems the gig apps are ignoring you.

... lots more to say but I'm getting bored.

Problem applicant.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> This conversation has gone as far as it's gonna go. I've stated my points clearly and I'm not gonna argue over the same points again and again, especially with someone who's intellectually dishonest.


So, 

What is your AR and CR?


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> This conversation has gone as far as it's gonna go. I've stated my points clearly and I'm not gonna argue over the same points again and again, especially with someone who's intellectually dishonest.


So,

A bunch of sound and fury, signifying nothing?

Still waiting for your stats regarding AR and CR.

Unprofitable contractor lamentating for government protection.


----------



## MrPurple (Apr 1, 2016)

Rampage said:


> Hi, I’m the new govt mandated supervisor with Uber. Here is the shift you are going to work today. It’s a split, I hope you packed a lunch. Oh yeah, why was your lunch break 31 minutes? It’s clearly stated that you are allot 30. Consider this your first warning.


That's pretty generous. I once had a county 911 job where you got 20 minutes per day. I took two fives for smokes and a 10 for lunch. You don't realize how long those frozen dinners take in the microwave until you only have 10 minutes. Definitely an "eat it now, taste it later." situation.


----------



## MrPurple (Apr 1, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Most immigrant gig-workers arrive here on airplanes.


Based on what evidence?


----------



## AB5 (Mar 29, 2020)

Gman67 said:


> Hmm, I'm Uber's employee? Best boss I've ever had then. I just want to thank the management for allowing me to come in to work any time I want and leave any time I want. I also appreciate them allowing me to take a 3 hour lunch everyday and giving me the freedom to interrupt my schedule no matter how busy it is when my favorite sports team is playing on TV or one of my best buddies calls wanting to go for an all night bar crawl. I'm sure they don't mind when I choose only to work when that map is lit up bright red and I'm positioned right in the center of it or they entice me with one of those sweet quests. The fact that my work habits are so erratic that even the best algo ever developed couldn't predict when I might show up doesn't bother the boss one bit. When I show up for work and I'm.....just not feeling it that day, so I head home after declining half a dozen rides, you are so understanding. When the wife feels frisky and I'm summoned home, you just give my a wry smile and fist bump and say see ya uhhhh, when I see ya. Also, thanks for paying me everyday and even five times per day if I prefer. And let's not forgot last year when I suddenly didn't show up for work for six months without calling while hiked the Appy Trail, you held my job for me. I just logged on and went to work like I'd never been gone. SO HERE'S TO MY UBER BOSS, THE BEST I'VE EVER HAD!


The question is about Uber being your boss. It is about US labor law and how Uber has done everything not to pay into Medicare SSA and Unemployment tax. A hybrid employee set up would work where you could have freedom and be a employee. The courier industry used it for 40 years until the laws changed. Uber needs to work with the government and make drivers employee and still have freedom. The money couriers made in the 1990s is 4 times as much as Uber drivers make.


----------



## 232200 (7 mo ago)

dnlbaboof said:


> I agree with AB5. Think Drivers are too hung up on the independence thing, a job shouldnt be about picking and cherry picking rides, you need a boss and you need to accept any ride at any location, otherwise Many riders, especially those in lower income areas get screwed.


Are you suggesting we accept all trips, even if we have to drive 30 minutes for the pickup? I get 30 minute trip requests all the time. I will only accept trips 5 minutes away, 10 minutes max if there’s a surge. I’m out there to make money, I’m not running a charity. Pickups in low income areas, I do those all the time, but I wont drive 30 minutes to that area. My policy applies no matter where I am.


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## 232200 (7 mo ago)

In some respects we are neither IC or employees. In my market, 90% of the trips we don’t know where we are taking the passenger, and sometimes get screwed, as I did yesterday. I work NJ, we cant pick up in NY, they still think it’s right to give us trips to NY. I usually contact passengers at EWR to see if the trip will take me to NY, if so, I cancel the trip. Well the pax didn’t respond to my question do his destination, but I picked him up anyway, loaded to luggage, saw he was going to JFK. I personally would never toss a passenger out at that point, it’s not his fault Uber hates the drivers, so I basically worked 2 hours to earn what I would in 1, as I had to drive back empty. If we were true IC we would be given all the information, I believe it’s called upfront pricing in many markets, we only see this with reservation trips, even those trips, we don’t see the pickup time till we accept the trip. Sometimes the pickup time will mean sitting for 30 minutes or longer. I will always cancel those trips as well. Time is money. I don’t like having a 15% cancellation rate, but I can’t accept many trips, and sometimes have to cancel trips, if I didnt, I would go bankrupt. I also run both apps, that’s the only way to make a decent living. If I‘m on the way to an Uber pickup, and Lyft offers me a surge trip, the Uber trip unfortunately has to be canceled, not operating this way, it would be impossible to pay my bills in this market. Uber can solve this problem very simply. Just pay us the time time and miles from when we accept the trip till we drop off the passenger, and allow us to pick up in any market. NY drivers can pick up in NJ, but we can’t pick up in NY.


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## 232200 (7 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> You're closer to an employee than you are to a true business owner who's truly his own boss. The companies' definition of transparency is a joke. You work under Uber's rules and rates. You sign THEIR contract, they don't sign yours. It's their way or the highway. NO negotiations are allowed. They change their pay and rules on a whim and if you don't sign the addendums you're terminated. Meanwhile, most "shackled" employees ARE allowed to negotiate with their employers.
> 
> It's debatable what percentage of drivers want to "remain" ICs. The fact that 97+% quit every year shows major dissatisfaction with the job. A more accurate statement is that many if not most drivers who sign up are attracted to what they BELIEVE being an IC means (good pay, flexibility, and freedom). Once they start driving most newbies rapidly become disillusioned by the failure of gig-work to live up to their expectations of what being an IC means and they quit.
> 
> ...


Actually showing the destination would have drivers cherry pick trips, because I know I would. I only accept trips 5 minutes away, 10 minutes max with a surge That’s the only cherry picking i can do. But if we were told a trip is a good paying trip, to a favorable destination, i would have no problem going up to 20 minutes for the pickup


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## Livekilometers96 (Apr 5, 2021)

Nats121 said:


> Maybe you can tell me why they wouldn't hire me.


1. You self reported that your car stopped being eligible for rideshare in 2019. That means you can only deliver food and don’t respect yourself enough to find a sub $5000 car to make better money. Severe lack of motivation is evident and therefore you would make a terrible employee. 
2. Piggybacking off number 1, I as an employer can mandate that you either rent my cars or have one off a small approved list of 5-10 hybrid/electric models. No more 15 year old dirty ass cars. My way or no highway!!!!!!!! 
3. Combative personality in which you dispense expired knowledge as still being relevant. You have been delivering food only for almost 3 years and yet you still lecture people about rideshare skills. I would never hire an employee who can’t stay in their lane. 
4. Your math is usually really bad. You only use numbers that fit your narrative and you constantly make shit up that you have no recent experience with. 
5. A general lacking of understanding of labor laws and the real life consequences those laws have on our industry. 
6. Inability to admit when wrong. 
7. Bad problem solving skills 

Those are just the reasons I can come up with from just knowing you online, can’t imagine how much worse it’s be meeting you in person. The list would probably double!


----------



## Ebo (Nov 30, 2017)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> I am NOT an employee of Uber. I am and want to remain, as most Uber drivers want to remain, independent contractors. For many reasons, from chosing whom we will take into our personal space, to chosing what rides we will do and when.
> 
> Uber is NOT a taxi business. It's a ridesharing business. It's gotten the widespread approval of major governments because it's attempting to resolve a major problem many big cities and areas have. GRIDLOCK. Ubers goal is to leverage as much as the general public as possible into SHARING their extra seats to take others where they need to go.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ebo (Nov 30, 2017)

Actually you are Uber can fire you at will! Uber decides the rates and Uber takes its cut! I like that long book you wrote bottom line you work for Uber! You can work for Lyft they can fire you too!
Hence the words Uber Driver!


----------



## TM6.5 (8 mo ago)

Gman67 said:


> WOW! Finally someone else who actually understand how it works. Thank you!


Can I ask what you earn gross income pay out in your s-corp?
I calculated my monthly salary needs @ $5,000.00 a month. (Less operating cost)


Nats121 said:


> Lets cut thru the BS.
> 
> Uber and Lyft have been paying drivers artificially low rates for years. In order to continue to do so, Uber and Lyft need BOTH of the following to continue. If they were to lose EITHER of the two, driver pay would rise significantly...
> 
> ...


1 Uber provides the client and the app (15%) of sales revenues 
2 the driver provides the vehicle and a driver. (85%) of sales revenues 
Uber is nothing more than a taxi service in 2022.


----------



## 232200 (7 mo ago)

TM6.5 said:


> Can I ask what you earn gross income pay out in your s-corp?
> I calculated my monthly salary needs @ $5,000.00 a month. (Less operating cost)
> 
> 1 Uber provides the client and the app (15%) of sales revenues
> ...


yes Uber is nothing more than a taxi service. The difference is we work when we want, no boss. When I took a 10 day vacation I didn‘t ask permission, I just didn’t turn the app on. When I came home, I turned the app on, back to work.


----------



## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

ubergrind said:


> There definitely needs to be some regulation.


It is already regulated. Uber wants to get rid of the drivers are employees regulations that they keep losing in courts. 

Uber says that we will lose our flexible hours if they have to pay minimum wage. How many of you are making less than minimum wage? When drivers were made employees in the UK, Seattle, NYC, CA, and the Netherlands did they lose their flexible?

What will we lose as employees? Will we gain anything as employees? Both sides spout a lot of BS.


----------



## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

UberPro1969 said:


> The difference is we work when we want, no boss. When I took a 10 day vacation I didn‘t ask permission, I just didn’t turn the app on. When I came home, I turned the app on, back to work.


Funny Uber employee drivers around the world have the same flexible hours as all the other Uber drivers. 

I know that in your market you will lose that flexibility because Uber and thier shills said so. We trust Uber or we wouldn't work for Uber.


----------



## 232200 (7 mo ago)

Wil Mette said:


> Funny Uber employee drivers around the world have the same flexible hours as all the other Uber drivers.
> 
> I know that in your market you will lose that flexibility because Uber and thier shills said so. We trust Uber or we wouldn't work for Uber.


If Uber attempts to take flexibility away, and make schedules for us, that will be the end of Uber. No one would put up with that, well maybe some ants would, but not enough of them. If I’m going to work on someone else’s schedule, they will provide the car, gas etc. I can get a job tomorrow with any car service and actually make more money.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Livekilometers96 said:


> 1. You self reported that your car stopped being eligible for rideshare in 2019. That means you can only deliver food and don’t respect yourself enough to find a sub $5000 car to make better money. Severe lack of motivation is evident and therefore you would make a terrible employee.
> 2. Piggybacking off number 1, I as an employer can mandate that you either rent my cars or have one off a small approved list of 5-10 hybrid/electric models. No more 15 year old dirty ass cars. My way or no highway!!!!!!!!
> 3. Combative personality in which you dispense expired knowledge as still being relevant. You have been delivering food only for almost 3 years and yet you still lecture people about rideshare skills. I would never hire an employee who can’t stay in their lane.
> 4. Your math is usually really bad. You only use numbers that fit your narrative and you constantly make shit up that you have no recent experience with.
> ...


This is a good example of your typical MO which is name-calling. You refuse to engage in actual adult debate because you can't.


----------



## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> I am NOT an employee of Uber. I am and want to remain, as most Uber drivers want to remain, independent contractors. For many reasons, from chosing whom we will take into our personal space, to chosing what rides we will do and when.
> 
> Uber is NOT a taxi business. It's a ridesharing business. It's gotten the widespread approval of major governments because it's attempting to resolve a major problem many big cities and areas have. GRIDLOCK. Ubers goal is to leverage as much as the general public as possible into SHARING their extra seats to take others where they need to go.
> 
> ...


You aren't truely independent either. If you were you could set your own rates and Uber / Lyft could never kick you off the app unless you violated some PUC rule or broke the law.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

UberPro1969 said:


> Actually showing the destination would have drivers cherry pick trips, because I know I would. I only accept trips 5 minutes away, 10 minutes max with a surge That’s the only cherry picking i can do. But if we were told a trip is a good paying trip, to a favorable destination, i would have no problem going up to 20 minutes for the pickup


As supposed independent contractor business owners drivers have an obligation to themselves and their "businesses" to make business decisions with ALL pertinent info. This means knowing the payout, pickup address, and destination address BEFORE accepting an offer.


----------



## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

UberPro1969 said:


> Are you suggesting we accept all trips, even if we have to drive 30 minutes for the pickup? I get 30 minute trip requests all the time. I will only accept trips 5 minutes away, 10 minutes max if there’s a surge. I’m out there to make money, I’m not running a charity. Pickups in low income areas, I do those all the time, but I wont drive 30 minutes to that area. My policy applies no matter where I am.


Yes, being an employee means accept everything, you couldnt pick and choose customers if you worked a cashier at mcdonalds, so the same rules Should apply to drivers.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

How much would true employees be paid?

A true employee would get $7.25 or more depending on what stage they live in. This is from login to log off.

Depending on what state you are in, it would be up to an additional $7.75 an hour more bringing it to $15.00 an hour.


Is time between pings payable?


Do any of these situations sound familiar?

1. Being on call and not getting called most nights, when you are called you have 90+ minutes to respond to the work location (temporary or otherwise)

2. Getting called so excessively that you are unable to use the time for any personal business.

3. Having less than an hour to respond and get to a work location

4. Waiting at a work site for an unknown period of time to receive work and having to get to work at a moments notice when it happens.

2, and 4 are textbook examples of “when on call time” is payable. #1 is an example of when it’s not payable. And number 3 is a strong indicator that it’s payable,



What about vehicle expenses?


Well employees are required to pay vehicle expenses. Under federal law they can’t pay less than min wage after impermissible expenses. Using your own vehicle for business is specifically on the list.


Now in order to “pay for your expenses” this can be done in one of 3 ways.

1. Reimburse you per mile for all business miles driven from a work location.

2. Provide you a company owned car.
It doesn’t “Have” to be a “take home” car. You might have to drive to tne shop every shift to pick it up. But this requires having more real estate.

It is possible for them to give you a take home car to use when you are working and take it home to save them on real estate.

3 provide you a rental car.

I envision there needing to be local Uber shops around the country. They would handle lost and founds and have local managers, HR ect. You would begin and end your day at these locations and they would track your mileage to/from the shop


Basically a green light hub, except mandatory.

The other possibility is that they let you take the cars home but only allow you to use it for pings.



Now; it’s actually cheaper for Uber to own their own vehicles then to pay drivers per mile. That’s why I call these “shops”.


You would literally pick up your company vehicle from the shop, drive your shift and come back and turn the car in. This is the cheapest way to do this with actual employees long term.


So that’s reality. You would be receiving $2.13-15.00 (depending on your state) an hour plus tips driving a taxi that says Uber on it

Yes, for tipped employees some states allow you to earn as little as $2.13 an hour, however your tips have to bring you up to $7.25 (or the states min wage). Some states like CA don’t allow it.

The limit on tips counting towards min wage is $4.00 and change per hour. Which with Uber I doubt is possible.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

UberPro1969 said:


> If Uber attempts to take flexibility away, and make schedules for us, that will be the end of Uber. No one would put up with that, well maybe some ants would, but not enough of them. If I’m going to work on someone else’s schedule, they will provide the car, gas etc. I can get a job tomorrow with any car service and actually make more money.


In an Uber employee-driver scenario the level of flexibility available to drivers would be determined by competition for drivers. The more competition, the more liberal the companies would have to be about flexibility, pay, benefits, etc.


----------



## Rampage (8 mo ago)

REX HAVOC said:


> You aren't truely independent either. If you were you could set your own rates and Uber / Lyft could never kick you off the app unless you violated some PUC rule or broke the law.


[QUOTE="AB5, 
Not true. I’ve hired contractors for work and they don’t get paid what the tell me they want. They have to bid and lowest usually wins unless there are circumstances that prove another would bring more value for the money.


----------



## 232200 (7 mo ago)

dnlbaboof said:


> Yes, being an employee means accept everything, you couldnt pick and choose customers if you worked a cashier at mcdonalds, so the same rules Should apply to drivers.


We are not employees of Uber. If they provided the car, gas etc, and paid us an hourly salary, you would be correct. But they don’t, so I will cherry pick trips all day long. You do realize if you do pickups far away, those are most likely money losing trips, unless the pax gives you a great tip.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Wil Mette said:


> It is already regulated. Uber wants to get rid of the drivers are employees regulations that they keep losing in courts.
> 
> Uber says that we will lose our flexible hours if they have to pay minimum wage. How many of you are making less than minimum wage? When drivers were made employees in the UK, Seattle, NYC, CA, and the Netherlands did they lose their flexible?
> 
> What will we lose as employees? Will we gain anything as employees? Both sides spout a lot of BS.


Have no knowledge of the other areas, but California drivers are not employees.

Drivers in CA are still required to report income on Sch C for federal and CA state income tax forms.


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## MrPurple (Apr 1, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> This is a good example of your typical MO which is name-calling. You refuse to engage in actual adult debate because you can't.


Are you being an adult when you completely ignore the points made in order to cry and pout about how mean they were?


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## paraleaglenm (10 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> If drivers ever become employees you can bet your ass that new companies will open for business. At least three have already said they will if AB5 ever gets implemented.
> 
> With the entrance of new companies into California Uber would be faced with much more competition than they've ever had for pax and for drivers. Thus they'd have no choice but to be competitive in both pay and working conditions for their drivers or shut down due to lack of drivers.


UBER was foisted on the market illegally. Its low-low prices and efficiency were attractive to consumers, but the cost was paid by unwitting drivers who subscribed to the app. The massive influx of cash was used to buy the top law firms in each state of operation, and UBER lobbyists influenced unintelligent legislators to pass laws 'legalizing' UBER's unlawful business practices. UBER's program restricted professional drivers from using its platform and using their own insurance, creating a vertically integrated monopoly. In time, UBER was making more on the fixed 'safety fees' that ostensibly went to insurance than their 25% take on actual fare rates. While taxi insurance could be as much as $300/month, UBER drivers working full-time were generating 'safety fees' close to $1200/month for UBER and its insurance underwriter.
Over time, many drivers discovered they weren't making money at the rates UBER charged. Some even lost money. 
Ideally, a similar GPS logistics system could have provided access to multiple companies and professional, insured drivers, but UBER kept its monopoly tightly protected by changing state laws, even if those laws were in direct violation of Federal Highway Safety Rules.
In the end, it became clear why taxis charge 3X more than UBER . . . it was the only way to maintain their cars, insurance, and allow drivers to make a livable income.


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## Pepestag (May 6, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> If drivers ever become employees you can bet your ass that new companies will open for business. At least three have already said they will if AB5 ever gets implemented.
> 
> With the entrance of new companies into California Uber would be faced with much more competition than they've ever had for pax and for drivers. Thus they'd have no choice but to be competitive in both pay and working conditions for their drivers or shut down due to lack of drivers.


I'm a partime uber cheats driver. If it becomes my employer I gonna be forced to take all the shitty oders they send me which is not part of my way to do this job.
I'll continue working 2 hours a day under my own rules: no tip no trip, no downtown, maximum 3 miles away.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

I don't understand why the people who are always so up in arms about this don't just go get a regular job. Or is it because they can't and downloading an app with no interview is the only way they can get a company to let them work?

Because honestly if any of these people were employable and believed what they were saying about being employees and none of us making more than $15 an hour net, they'd take a car service employed driver job for $20 an hour and get on with their lives. No special license needed. Jobs available all over the country. Have at it. They wouldn't be in here trying to get us to help force Uber to hire them.


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

pwnzor said:


> This is wrong on so many levels.
> 
> Employees don't drive their own cars around and pay for their own gas. Employees drive the company car and have a fuel card.
> 
> The government is wrong, once again. Just trying to destroy business at it's most fundamental level by obscuring the line between what's real and what isn't.


Employees in California get 58.5 cents per mile for all miles driven in their personal vehicles when they are working. So the drive a company car argument isn't true.

Should the government stop all employment laws and get out of the way of business is something worth arguing about, elsewhere.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Wil Mette said:


> Employees in California get 58.5 cents per mile for all miles driven in their personal vehicles when they are working. So the drive a company car argument isn't true.
> 
> Should the government stop all employment laws and get out of the way of business is something worth arguing about, elsewhere.


Everybody gets 58.5 center per mile. It's the standard federal rate for 2022. You either get it in your pocket or deduct it from your income. Getting it in your pocket just means you pay taxes on the rest with no deductibility. I get what you're saying for CA, but there are 49 other states.  We all get it one way or another, employee or not and wherever we are.


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Rampage said:


> Hi, I’m the new govt mandated supervisor with Uber. Here is the shift you are going to work today. It’s a split, I hope you packed a lunch. Oh yeah, why was your lunch break 31 minutes? It’s clearly stated that you are allot 30. Consider this your first warning.


Did that happen in the UK?
In Seatle?
In Denmark?
No, no, no. Are you sure that you are not the new Uber shill supervisor?


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Vagabond1 said:


> Everybody gets 58.5 center per mile. It's the standard federal rate for 2022. You either get it in your pocket or deduct it from your income. Getting it in your pocket just means you pay taxes on the rest with no deductibility. I get what you're saying for CA, but there are 49 other states.  We all get it one way or another, employee or not and wherever we are.


Every IC gets to deduct 58.5 cents per business use mile off of taxes. This does not mean that Uber pays 58.5 cents per mile for all miles, including the 40%-to 50% of miles without a pax in the vehicle.
In CA, every employer must pay employees 58.5 cents per mile for all miles driven in personal vehicles for the employer. All miles from the ping to the dropoff needs to be paid to the employee tax-free. Commute miles do not count. This shows that CA saw that enough employees do use personal vehicles for business use that they felt a need to pass a law to make sure those employees got paid for using their cars for work.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Wil Mette said:


> Every IC gets to deduct 58.5 cents per business use mile off of taxes. This does not mean that Uber pays 58.5 cents per mile for all miles, including the 40%-to 50% of miles without a pax in the vehicle.
> In CA, every employer must pay employees 58.5 cents per mile for all miles driven in personal vehicles for the employer. All miles from the ping to the dropoff needs to be paid to the employee tax-free. Commute miles do not count. This shows that CA saw that enough employees do use personal vehicles for business use that they felt a need to pass a law to make sure those employees got paid for using their cars for work.


Ya I understand all that. But the IC or any employee using their car for business use nationwide can deduct 58.5 cents per mile for all those same miles. Like I said, it's either in your pocket because you're reimbursed and you get no deduction, or you get the deduction to put it in your pocket and not pay taxes on it. Either way, we all get it and always have.

Actually, the IC gets more in our case, because we can in fact deduct all the miles to the city where we're going to "work" and all the milling around miles waiting for a paid ride. It's every mile we spend in pursuit of work, so from out of the driveway to end of shift. If you leave to go work a six hour shift and don't mingle personal mileage, every mile in the six hours is legitimate business use and deductible. Being "reimbursed" for mileage means you lose the deduction, so getting the 58.5 cents from ping to drop off means that's all you get and you're stuck with the rest of the miles without compensation or deduction.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

So, whose car anybody's driving aside and to the bigger point, these people who are always crowing about how they're going to protect us and save us from our ignorant selves, advocates and lawmakers alike, simply do not understand self-employment and what they take away from us when trying to bestow these alleged gifts. They don't get it.

Everything's a compromise and you will lose something for every generous piece of BS they give you ... like the extra 50% of your actual miles being deductible you already lost above, or eventually your ability to say no to a ping because you're being paid an hourly rate and have to do what you're told.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Wil Mette said:


> Did that happen in the UK?
> In Seatle?
> In Denmark?
> No, no, no. Are you sure that you are not the new Uber shill supervisor?


I am. Now get your dick beaters back on the steering wheel and make me money.


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Vagabond1 said:


> Actually, the IC gets more, because we can in fact deduct all the miles to the city where we're going to "work" and all the milling around miles waiting for a paid ride. It's every mile we spend in pursuit of work, so from out of the driveway to end of shift. If you leave to go work a six hour shift and don't mingle personal mileage, every mile in the six hours is legitimate business use and deductible. Being "reimbursed" for mileage means you lose the deduction, so getting the 58.5 cents from ping to drop off means that's all you get and you're stuck with the rest of the miles without compensation or deduction.


No, I am saying that the courts in the USA and around the world are ruling that we are employees because Uber exerts too much control over us - in the court's opinion.
I believe that we should be paid for every on-app mile & minute. I think Uber wants the gig to start at the ping & end at the dropoff or worse. Uber should loosen control and just be an app that collects less than 26% of our pay. We should have access to the *Application Programming Interface* so we can run filters (including 3rd party apps), such as a destination filter that is always available and work for the driver. As an employee Uber could fire us without cause, as ICs we should be able to sue for breach of contract.

This started because someone said that as employees, we would all have to drive Uber-owned cars and we would lose all flexibility. This is untrue employees use their cars and usually, the employer reimburses them at the IRS rate and where Uber drivers have been ruled employees, they still have flexible hours.

Getting paid 58.5 cents per mile tax-free is better than deducting 58.5 cents per mile and collecting 61 cents per pax mile.

No, I do not think getting a union is a magic bullet that will get drivers a huge increase in pay. If unions were to get us more money, unions have been averaging $50 per week more than non-union workers. One grocery store union is getting starting pay of 50 cents over minimum wage for union employees - I for one will not apply. Are enough drivers willing to strike for a pay raise?


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## Anotherfool (10 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> If drivers ever become employees you can bet your ass that new companies will open for business. At least three have already said they will if AB5 ever gets implemented.
> 
> With the entrance of new companies into California Uber would be faced with much more competition than they've ever had for pax and for drivers. Thus they'd have no choice but to be competitive in both pay and working conditions for their drivers or shut down due to lack of drivers.


Uber could just stop their services in California and let others deal with the crybaby drivers. If you don't like the job you agreed to do then there's a simple fix. Stop doing it and go get a real job or start your own business. I don't even use Uber in California for the crybaby drivers.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Wil Mette said:


> No, I am saying that the courts in the USA and around the world are ruling that we are employees because Uber exerts too much control over us - in the court's opinion.
> I believe that we should be paid for every on-app mile & minute. I think Uber wants the gig to start at the ping & end at the dropoff or worse. Uber should loosen control and just be an app that collects less than 26% of our pay. We should have access to the *Application Programming Interface* so we can run filters (including 3rd party apps) such as a destination filter that is always available and work for the driver. As an employee the
> 
> This started because someone said that as employees, we would all have to drive Uber-owned cars and we would lose all flexibility. This is untrue employees use their cars and usually, the employer reimburses them at the IRS rate and where Uber drivers have been ruled employees, they still have flexible hours.
> ...


The federal rules on what makes an employee are clear, and federal rules are the baseline. States can impose tougher restrictions above and beyond. It's that way with employment, gun control, speed limits, minimum wage, whatever. At the federal level, we do not have set schedules, use the "employers" equipment, are not required to accept all or any work offered, do not have minimum hours, etc, so we're not employees.

A court in California deciding something above and beyond with regard to employment because they have a finer definition is certainly that state's/court's prerogative, but does not mean a court in Florida could or should find the same thing or that this is a national right or wrong.

You're entitled to your opinion about which is better, but states do have the right to decide I'm not an employee as long as I don't meet the federal standard, and I hope my state continues to. What California or a court in another country thinks is totally irrelevant in my state and not an argument that my state is wrong or we're universally employees.

We have Upfront Pricing here and the new Boost+ bonus scheme. We don't have a rate card anymore, so there are no guaranteed minimums. I would change that and make sure we're getting something fair per minute worked and a reasonable per mile minimum guarantee (not flat rate) to make sure expenses are covered. Right now I can only do that with the Boosts. I think everyone would like to see something like that, because it's perfectly reasonable. But becoming employees and all the baggage that comes along with that is not the only way.

When people talk about employment, they always talk about pay. If pay is the problem, fix the pay first and then lets see how many people are still complaining about not being employees, because frankly the pay is probably going to be an issue no matter how you're paid. Becoming an employee will not fix that for a company that doesn't want to lower its cut. They'll just keep fewer of you, or pay more of you less. The functional problem will not change. You'll just be more obligated to them.


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## stimps90 (Jan 7, 2016)

Your all getting screwed. Just quit


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## k pseudonymous (Mar 7, 2017)

UberPro1969 said:


> Are you suggesting we accept all trips, even if we have to drive 30 minutes for the pickup? I get 30 minute trip requests all the time. I will only accept trips 5 minutes away, 10 minutes max if there’s a surge. I’m out there to make money, I’m not running a charity. Pickups in low income areas, I do those all the time, but I wont drive 30 minutes to that area. My policy applies no matter where I am.


If you're an employee, you get reimbursed for EVERY mile you drive, including empty car miles to go pick up a passenger and to return from long trips. You also get paid for your time. A 30 minute drive to pick up a passenger would pay as much as a 30 minute drive with a passenger.

Uber's refusal to pay for pickup/return miles and time spent online without a request are two of the major ways they shove costs onto the drivers. The way they do requests has lead to drivers gaming the system to optimize their earnings, but the entire system is screwed up because you MUST game it to make decent money. Getting rid of the gaming and putting all costs[1] into the fare would eliminate the need to game the system. Since most drivers would make a profit off of mileage reimbursement, the incentive would be to keep driving, even for long pickups and paid return miles would make a long trip out into the boonies more profitable for the drivers than lots of short trips around a densely populated area. Right now, Uber sells passengers some rides below the cost and tries to push those costs onto the drivers. That's got to stop.

[1] Fares have costs that Uber doesn't reimburse the drivers for. Time spent waiting for pickups, time and miles to get to the passenger, time and miles to get back after a trip outside your driving area, etc. are all costs, and Uber has tried very hard to push those costs onto the drivers. They've also got many drivers confused about what being an employee means. changing driver's status from contractor to employee wouldn't mean that they have a supervisor or even many changes in the way the system works. What would change is the way drivers are paid and the fares. Passengers would have to pay for the cost of getting a ride, which would mean pickup charges when a car has to drive a while to get to them, drop off charges for destinations outside of the driver's area, time and mileage at rates high enough to cover all the time and all the costs (stuck in traffic for hours and being kept waiting until right before the timeout would be paid time. That will change drivers' attitude towards those situations.) Rates wouldn't change that much for short trips in densely populated areas, but rides to and from the 'burbs would shoot up in cost as would very long trips. On top of the actual costs for the ride, there'd need to be a percent over that to cover wait times. Adding supervisors would be a high cost and since the margins are already low, that's just not going to happen.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Vagabond1 said:


> Everybody gets 58.5 center per mile. It's the standard federal rate for 2022. You either get it in your pocket or deduct it from your income. Getting it in your pocket just means you pay taxes on the rest with no deductibility. I get what you're saying for CA, but there are 49 other states.  We all get it one way or another, employee or not and wherever we are.


Not in some states...

In Florida they pay out less than 58c a mile for all miles driven. Meaning once you factor in the mileage deduction you're at less than zero.


In Florida we are legally entitled to + $11.00 an hour. (technically $7.98 for a tipped job but the employer has to garuntee tips bring the min wage up to at least $11.00. So on paper they can just legally Steal $3.02 of our tips per hour.

Around here we average about 20-30 miles an hour driven.

X .585 = $11.70- $17.55

Given that earnings average about $7-12 an hour that puts us in the NEGATIVE 4-5 an hour.

Given that it's a tipped position as an employer they could pay as little as $7.98 an hour plus garunteed $3.02 in tips per hour.


So in order for them to be legal in Florida, given that payments are $7-12 an hour and expenses are $11-17 an hour that means that by IRS standards pay is actually...

-$4 to -$5 per hour

To get up to $7.98 an hour pay would ned to be _increased_ by $11.98 per hour, roughly.


Meaning by IRS standards in an FDOL lawsuit florida drivers would be owed roughly 108% of min wage per hour to get UP TO min wage.

Then on top of that they would owe an additional 108% in liquidated damages. Because in florida you owe double for what you shorted your employees for failing to pay min wage.


Quite literally if florida drivers were decalred employeees.... They would owe more money to the drivers in back pay then they ever paid them in the first place. Given that uber's operating at a loss...

For the entire period the drivers could sue for, they would owe more money than uber ever paid the drivers suing them, by a factor of 216%, more than likely more than they ever collected from passengers here.


Florida is the most extreme of examples, but I suspect other states are in a similar situation.

A nationwide employment classification would sink uber/lyft because tehy would have to jack up the driver pay by such a large amount they would have to gut their customer base by jacking up prices so much.

It would create a negative feedback loop that would result in sinking their business.

Higher expense ->
Fewer customers ->
Effeciency goes down ->
Higher expense ->
Fewer customers ->
and so and so forth until an equilibrium is found.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Not in some states...
> 
> In Florida they pay out less than 58c a mile for all miles driven. Meaning once you factor in the mileage deduction you're at less than zero.
> 
> ...


I think you misread me. I said either someone can get reimbursed .585 for business miles, like the other guy said, or they can deduct .585. We aren't reimbursed for any miles in Florida. We get the deduction.

Being reimbursed for your business miles isn't pay. It's a separate untaxable line item.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Vagabond1 said:


> I think you misread me. I said either someone gets reimbursed .585 for business miles, like the other guy said, or they can deduct .585. We aren't reimbursed for any miles in Florida. We get the deduction.
> 
> Being reimbursed for your business miles isn't pay. It's a separate untaxable line item.


But if your deductions exceed your pay then you are getting literally zero Benefit from them.


In fact in Florida unless your income is greater then +$12000 then your better off not deducting your expenses so you can get Obamacare health insurance for next to nothing a month.

In Florida If your income is less than $12,000 a year you’re not eligible for government subsidized health care.


Quite literally drivers here are significantly better off not writing off their expenses.

Writing off expenses = Owe nothing in taxes

Not writing off expenses = + $400 a month for health insurance and minus $50 a month taxes owed. And this is with no dependents. With dpendents the math is even more bennificial to not report your expenses.


If I was still depending on Uber to make a living… I wouldn’t be writing off my expenses.



Also none of the drivers who wrote off all their income were eligible for government handouts during Covid, or unemployment.

Because they didn’t make at least $0.00 they were eligible for PPP loans and unemployment wouldn’t pay anything because on paper they didn’t work.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> But if your deductions exceed your pay then you are getting literally zero Benefit from them.
> 
> 
> In fact in Florida unless your income is greater then +$12000 then your better off not deducting your expenses so you can get Obamacare health insurance for next to nothing a month.
> ...


Maybe, but that's not what we were talking about when deductible mileage came up. The point was just that we've got it to take if we're not being reimbursed, which is not a state by state thing or dependent on how we're paid. If you don't want to take it you certainly don't have to. I most definitely need to take it because it's the only expense I'm deducting and doesn't come close to exceeding my pay or even putting me anywhere near $0.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Lets cut thru the BS.
> 
> Uber and Lyft have been paying drivers artificially low rates for years. In order to continue to do so, Uber and Lyft need BOTH of the following to continue. If they were to lose EITHER of the two, driver pay would rise significantly...
> 
> ...


Because people like YOU keep taking it and begging for more of the same. 
“Thank you sir may I have another?”
Keep driving. It keeps the pay low.


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## sgeecable (Dec 15, 2021)

Most of these people, Who want to be employees are not making money. And I understand it but dont make it bad for the people who are. I was making good money with uber, then I moved and was making shit money. but its not their fault its mine. So I will find another job, not put them down. They tell you how much you make per mile and per minute, any extra is bonus. if a resturant owner raise the price of his menu you thing you going to get raise? Hell no. Uber takes care of the people who takes care of them. They no I made a killing in Chicago, I complained on a survey.. And I be dammed I was getting better trips. And Why? because its my job, and I accept every trip and dont cancel until timmer runs out. I feel like if I don't like the pay its up to me to stay or quit....


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Atavar said:


> Because people like YOU keep taking it and begging for more of the same.
> “Thank you sir may I have another?”
> Keep driving. It keeps the pay low.


I don't do rideshare, I do delivery only.

As far as keeping the pay low is concerned I doubt the companies would agree with you. I cherrypick as much as I can and refuse unprofitable offers which causes me to incur the companies' wrath, most especially Doordash.

At this point I'm pretty much working for the customers because the tips are the majority of my earnings thanks to all the pay cuts.


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## sgeecable (Dec 15, 2021)

Nats121 said:


> I don't do rideshare, I do delivery only.
> 
> As far as keeping the pay low is concerned I doubt the companies would agree with you. I cherrypick as much as I can and refuse unprofitable offers which causes me to incur the companies' wrath, most especially Doordash.
> 
> At this point I'm pretty much working for the customers because the tips are the majority of my earnings thanks to all the pay cuts.


Quit! Nobody forcing you to work for uber. what you cant find job? HaHa, I found another job, and if it was not for uber I could not have buried my daughter when she died. So Im very greatful And so are a whole lot of drivers.. So quit and stop making it bad for other drivers.


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## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

Anotherfool said:


> Uber could just stop their services in California and let others deal with the crybaby drivers. If you don't like the job you agreed to do then there's a simple fix. Stop doing it and go get a real job or start your own business. I don't even use Uber in California for the crybaby drivers.





Anotherfool said:


> Uber could just stop their services in California and let others deal with the crybaby drivers. If you don't like the job you agreed to do then there's a simple fix. Stop doing it and go get a real job or start your own business. I don't even use Uber in California for the crybaby drivers.


No they can't. Their stock would crater because California is 5th largest economy in the world with 37 million residents. We are a bigger economy than the UK. Why do you think they spent so much money to put the Prop 22 on the ballot?


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## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> I don't do rideshare, I do delivery only.
> 
> As far as keeping the pay low is concerned I doubt the companies would agree with you. I cherrypick as much as I can and refuse unprofitable offers which causes me to incur the companies' wrath, most especially Doordash.
> 
> At this point I'm pretty much working for the customers because the tips are the majority of my earnings thanks to all the pay cuts.


I do Door Dash too but you can't tell me they don't exert a lot of control over their delivery drivers when they stop sending you requests if you turn down deliveries. If I pass on three in a row I get a mandatory 15 minutes time out unless it's very busy.


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## 232200 (7 mo ago)

sgeecable said:


> Most of these people, Who want to be employees are not making money. And I understand it but dont make it bad for the people who are. I was making good money with uber, then I moved and was making shit money. but its not their fault its mine. So I will find another job, not put them down. They tell you how much you make per mile and per minute, any extra is bonus. if a resturant owner raise the price of his menu you thing you going to get raise? Hell no. Uber takes care of the people who takes care of them. They no I made a killing in Chicago, I complained on a survey.. And I be dammed I was getting better trips. And Why? because its my job, and I accept every trip and dont cancel until timmer runs out. I feel like if I don't like the pay its up to me to stay or quit....


You accept every trip? Even pickups 20 or more minutes away?


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## 232200 (7 mo ago)

REX HAVOC said:


> I do Door Dash too but you can't tell me they don't exert a lot of control over their delivery drivers when they stop sending you requests if you turn down deliveries. If I pass on three in a row I get a mandatory 15 minutes time out unless it's very busy.


Wow. So if it’s busy they will ignore their garbage policy of the time out. That’s pathetic of them. If you don’t cherry pick trips, it’s not financially worth doing, but if you do they punish you. You’re damned if you do, and damned if you don‘t. Do you work for more than 1 platform?


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

REX HAVOC said:


> I do Door Dash too but you can't tell me they don't exert a lot of control over their delivery drivers when they stop sending you requests if you turn down deliveries. If I pass on three in a row I get a mandatory 15 minutes time out unless it's very busy.


Of course they exert lots of control as do all the gig companies. They can feed or starve any driver they want with their dispatch system and there's nothing the driver can do about it. Even the the best drivers are only as good as the offers they receive.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

REX HAVOC said:


> No they can't. Their stock would crater because California is 5th largest economy in the world with 37 million residents. We are a bigger economy than the UK. Why do you think they spent so much money to put the Prop 22 on the ballot?


I never bought their threats to pull out of CA for the reason you stated. Just like NYC they would have been forced to suck it up and deal with AB5.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Now there’s an answer that makes sense. Why let one company screw with you when you can let three companies screw with you. Lol


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> How much would true employees be paid?
> 
> A true employee would get $7.25 or more depending on what stage they live in. This is from login to log off.
> 
> ...


True Uber would have to pay a minimum of $7.25. They could still offer incentives and why would they stop? Currently, in Chicago, the base per minute rate is less than Chicago's minimum wage and that is just the time with a pax in the car.

Is the time between pings payable? It isn't now, but arguably should be as an employee.

In the UK, Seattle, & Belgium, did any of your situations happen?

I envision where you accept the first ping of your flexible shift to be where mileage starts & ends when you sign off. I would love to have if end where you set your end-of-the-day destination filter or home, but that does not seem to be happening in those areas where drivers are considered to be workers/employees. We currently have no fixed work location, so Uber could legally pay us from our house.

Uber can NOT afford to buy/lease a half-million or so cars, or they would be using the taxi model already and we would be renting cars from them.

Uber has a difficult time now keeping drivers, how could they cut pay?

Uber needs to loosen their control over us and make us true ICs. Take a flat percentage of our pay. Pay for our empty miles & minutes and raise rates on currently unprofitable/below reasonable wage rides so we have incentives to take almost all rides. They should only offer us rides that we want to take. This would require them to let us filter rides or they would have to communicate with drivers to see what drives want.

Being employees only gives us the threat of a union. A union would only work if enough are willing to strike. Let us see what happens on July 4, and maybe Lucy will let Charlie Brown kick the football this time.

Chicago seems to be taking the more effective approach and working with the City Council to address issues.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

As far as I’m aware there’s nowhere in the USA or Canada where employment status has been firmly declared and enforced. 

Unless we had Mandatory something at the offices/shop it would be payable from the house.


For instance If we did have to pickup a company vehicle that would be the case that it’s not payable.

The easiest way to handle it would be to just pay us for all miles + time while we are logged on.

The cheapest way would be for us to use company owned vehicles and pick them up from the shop.

At the end of the day 10-20% of us or so will probably end up going that way because it’s the only way that Uber can ever get ADA accessible WAVs on the road.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> As far as I’m aware there’s nowhere in the USA or Canada where employment status has been firmly declared and enforced.


The federal standards I mentioned are in the IRS regulations and they're enforced all the time, especially in commission sales jobs which is why many have some form of draw against commissions instead of getting nothing if they make no sales. They meet requirements for mandatory compensation as employees even if they agree to work on commission.


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

Seamus said:


> Did you know that starting this year (2022) Uber must give a 1099k to anyone making over $600?


Even those small time Ebay sellers will trigger a 1099 for yearly sale that hit $600. The threshold used to be $20,000.
_“Tax the Rich” _my ass!…😏🤭😂


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Uber's Guber said:


> Even those small time Ebay sellers will trigger a 1099 for yearly sale that hit $600. The threshold used to be $20,000.
> _“Tax the Rich” _my ass!…😏🤭😂


Also Venmo, AirBnb and the list goes on!


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

Simple solution for all the AB5 lovers, just make a national medallion where you pay 1k a year to cover background checks and inspections to be your own taxi, buy your own commercial insurance and hail your rides....but democrats dont want that they want people to pay 100k for a medallion as to drive people to suicide......


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## REX HAVOC (Jul 4, 2016)

Rampage said:


> [QUOTE="AB5,
> Not true. I’ve hired contractors for work and they don’t get paid what the tell me they want. They have to bid and lowest usually wins unless there are circumstances that prove another would bring more value for the money.


You didn't give an answer to my second statement that if we were truly independent then Uber/Lyft couldn't kick us lock us out of the app without a hearing or arbitration which they can easily do.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Rampage said:


> [QUOTE="AB5,
> Not true. I’ve hired contractors for work and they don’t get paid what the tell me they want. They have to bid and lowest usually wins unless there are circumstances that prove another would bring more value for the money.


This scenario you described sounds a lot like Uber's Radar scam.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

dnlbaboof said:


> but democrats dont want that they want people to pay 100k for a medallion as to drive people to suicide......


If you look around the country at who owns taxi medallions you see both Dems AND Reps own them.


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## clintz (Nov 1, 2016)

You are not employees, you are contractors, or small businesses. get over it, the employment model is done, outdated, yes, I live in another country. But, my last job I got, they gave me 15 hours a week, which lasts 3 days to live on.

Uber lets me work 20-60 hrs a week and pay my bills, rent and so on. I rarely go on holidays - need a holiday or the so called benefits I guess you want, its up to you to make it happen.

welcome to the future. countries are trying office jobs at 4 days a week. embrace the future and stop thinking stability exists.


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## Diamondraider (Mar 13, 2017)

Wil Mette said:


> No, I am saying that the courts in the USA and around the world are ruling that we are employees because Uber exerts too much control over us - in the court's opinion.
> I believe that we should be paid for every on-app mile & minute. I think Uber wants the gig to start at the ping & end at the dropoff or worse. Uber should loosen control and just be an app that collects less than 26% of our pay. We should have access to the *Application Programming Interface* so we can run filters (including 3rd party apps), such as a destination filter that is always available and work for the driver. As an employee Uber could fire us without cause, as ICs we should be able to sue for breach of contract.
> 
> This started because someone said that as employees, we would all have to drive Uber-owned cars and we would lose all flexibility. This is untrue employees use their cars and usually, the employer reimburses them at the IRS rate and where Uber drivers have been ruled employees, they still have flexible hours.
> ...


Dominos drivers are reimbursed for their car.


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## clintz (Nov 1, 2016)

Diamondraider said:


> Dominos drivers are reimbursed for their car.


wow, thanks for comparing oranges with apples. - can u do 20-60 hours a week at dominos>?????? do u get paid hourly plus car at dominos (last time I worked there, this was correct) ??? can u actually compare it with something equivalent. will dominos give u constant shifts????? thanks for making a statement of no value.


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## Diamondraider (Mar 13, 2017)

clintz said:


> wow, thanks for comparing oranges with apples. - can u do 20-60 hours a week at dominos>?????? do u get paid hourly plus car at dominos (last time I worked there, this was correct) ??? can u actually compare it with something equivalent. will dominos give u constant shifts????? thanks for making a statement of no value.


Dominos is proof you can be a delivery employee but still need to supply your own car.
Now kindly Gfy


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## clintz (Nov 1, 2016)

Diamondraider said:


> Dominos is proof you can be a delivery employee but still need to supply your own car.
> Now kindly Gfy


yeah 12 hours a week, at bad hours and just survive, or work uber anytime, anywhere, for lots of hours and live a better life. yeah, glad u chose dominos I guess.


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## Diamondraider (Mar 13, 2017)

clintz said:


> wow, thanks for comparing oranges with apples. - can u do 20-60 hours a week at dominos>?????? do u get paid hourly plus car at dominos (last time I worked there, this was correct) ??? can u actually compare it with something equivalent. will dominos give u constant shifts????? thanks for making a statement of no value.





clintz said:


> yeah 12 hours a week, at bad hours and just survive, or work uber anytime, anywhere, for lots of hours and live a better life. yeah, glad u chose dominos I guess.


you are a brain dead idiot.

my post supported some of your information and you call me out.

You are the problem with this forum.


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## clintz (Nov 1, 2016)

Diamondraider said:


> you are a brain dead idiot.
> 
> my post supported some of your information and you call me out.
> 
> You are the problem with this forum.


How???? being realistic??? telling the truth????? my last retail job which I guess u missed gave me 12 hours a week, 20-30 if ppl called in sick or seasonal. now rent, food, fuel, phone is around 30-35 hours a week, back 4 years ago, uber I can pay all these bills and more and pay much less tax in my country. definitely a win. but uber isn't for everyone, I guess.


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## Diamondraider (Mar 13, 2017)

clintz said:


> How???? being realistic??? telling the truth????? my last retail job which I guess u missed gave me 12 hours a week, 20-30 if ppl called in sick or seasonal. now rent, food, fuel, phone is around 30-35 hours a week, back 4 years ago, uber I can pay all these bills and more and pay much less tax in my country. definitely a win. but uber isn't for everyone, I guess.


You are an idiot for selecting my response to practice screaming at the clouds.


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## clintz (Nov 1, 2016)

Diamondraider said:


> You are an idiot for selecting my response to practice screaming at the clouds.


you spelt realistic and correct wrong, but I forgive u.


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Vagabond1 said:


> The federal rules on what makes an employee are clear


If the federal rule were clear, there would be no discussion here. The courts have 20 questions of control that help determine our status. We are solid on at least 1/3 of them, making us employees, and probably 12 lean toward us being employees, but even then, it is up to the courts to decide if the 12 outweigh the 8. CA courts simplified it to 3 questions, the ABC test, and if even one leans toward being an employee, then we are employees. Other state courts are expected to follow the CA court's ABC test. They ruled that we were employees. Then Prop 22 passed for CA, but that has been ruled unconstitutional.

WA has passed a bill making rideshare drivers ICs. For some reason, they felt it was necessary for the state to determine the status, maybe because it was unclear.

CA questions are:
1) The worker is free from the employer's control or direction in performing the work.
2) The work takes place outside the usual course of the business of the company and off the site of the business.
3) Customarily, the worker is engaged in an independent trade, occupation, profession, or business.

If Uber chooses to let the drivers control the jobs, including letting us hire others to do the job for us and filtering requests with full knowledge of the trips and become just an app company instead of a rideshare company, then we could be true ICs. Until then, it is up to the courts or politicians to decide.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Wil Mette said:


> If the federal rule were clear, there would be no discussion here. The courts have 20 questions of control that help determine our status. We are solid on at least 1/3 of them, making us employees, and probably 12 lean toward us being employees, but even then, it is up to the courts to decide if the 12 outweigh the 8. CA courts simplified it to 3 questions, the ABC test, and if even one leans toward being an employee, then we are employees. Other state courts are expected to follow the CA court's ABC test. They ruled that we were employees. Then Prop 22 passed for CA, but that has been ruled unconstitutional.
> 
> WA has passed a bill making rideshare drivers ICs. For some reason, they felt it was necessary for the state to determine the status, maybe because it was unclear.
> 
> ...


The federal standard is very clear. Once again, states have the right to expand their rules _*on top of*_ those standards, which is all you're saying happened. There is no "the courts" until it's the Supreme Court. It's just courts in _*a*_ state deciding for _*that*_ state.

Repeating the same argument will not overrule the base fact. The IRS and DOL set federal standards and provide them publicly for independent contractors, common-law employees, statutory employees, and statutory nonemployees. Hit the Google machine. It's all there. What states mandate *in addition* is up to those states.

My friend, I'm a retired tax accountant with 35+ years of business experience helping companies keep or bend these rules without breaking them in all 50 states. I promise you, all you're saying is that for some reason you believe the law is or should be equal in all states or that a California court's decision should inevitably apply in Delaware. Neither is true.

The federal standard is the baseline. States can interpret or expand on that as they see fit, as they have exactly done. What is true in California will not necessarily hold true anywhere else.

And there actually IS a Supreme Court ruling on this, actually multiple so we should not expect it to change, and they have repeatedly held that there are 7 factors to be used in a government agency or state deciding if someone is an independent contractor, common-law employee, statutory employee, or statutory nonemployee. They are:

The extent to which the services rendered are an integral part of the principal's business.
The permanency of the relationship.
The amount of the alleged contractor's investment in facilities and equipment.
The nature and degree of control by the principal.
The alleged contractor's opportunities for profit and loss.
The amount of initiative, judgment, or foresight in open market competition with others required for the success of the claimed independent contractor.
The degree of independent business organization and operation.

And that's it. They don't want to be involved any further or in greater detail than those top level arguments, specifically because it is the right of the states to decide beyond what the DOL and IRS lay out.


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## Diamondraider (Mar 13, 2017)

clintz said:


> you spelt realistic and correct wrong, but I forgive u.


Just be sure you wait 6 hours after Cannabis to go out driving.


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## clintz (Nov 1, 2016)

Diamondraider said:


> Just be sure you wait 6 hours after Cannabis to go out driving.


wait, they changed it to 6 hours??? since when, I need to read the TC's again


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## Wil Mette (Jan 15, 2015)

Vagabond1 said:


> There is no "the courts" until it's the Supreme Court.


Very few cases get to the Supreme Court & only a small percent are accepted by the Supreme Court. District courts have had rulings that are different from each other in the past and have maintained those differences sometimes for decades. Usually, over time the district courts' opinions merge.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Wil Mette said:


> Very few cases get to the Supreme Court & only a small percent are accepted by the Supreme Court. District courts have had rulings that are different from each other in the past and have maintained those differences sometimes for decades. Usually, over time the district courts' opinions merge.


I already addressed this and actually quoted the Supreme Court. They've spoken, reiterated what the DOL and IRS say, and don't want to be involved beyond that.

Your desire for states' rights not to exist or to be overridden so everything is the same everywhere for the sake of Uber drivers will not make it so, nor will it mean there are no federal standards. Just like CA and WA coming to different conclusions, the states will decide based on their statutes *beyond* the federal, and that will not mean a contradiction in following the federal or that the federal is unclear - only that CA has applied its right for stricter qualification.


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

I’ve blackballed contractors and been straight telling them they suck and to take a hike. Why do you think a contractor has to treated another way?


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Vagabond1 said:


> The federal standard is very clear. Once again, states have the right to expand their rules _*on top of*_ those standards, which is all you're saying happened. There is no "the courts" until it's the Supreme Court. It's just courts in _*a*_ state deciding for _*that*_ state.
> 
> Repeating the same argument will not overrule the base fact. The IRS and DOL set federal standards and provide them publicly for independent contractors, common-law employees, statutory employees, and statutory nonemployees. Hit the Google machine. It's all there. What states mandate *in addition* is up to those states.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said. Additionally even within the state bureaucracies and courts the issues are more complex. People have a tendency to way oversimplify things to make them black or white.

In NYS the unemployment appeals commission and the NYS Supreme Court have ruled Uber Drivers are employees. You would think that would mean that in NYS Uber drivers are now considered employees And the matter is settle. Nope. Why? Because the rulings were so narrow that they applied to three individuals for the purpose of getting paid unemployment Benefits! (Pre Covid)


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## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> This scenario you described sounds a lot like Uber's Radar scam.


You are absolutely right. That crap is there to appease the “fairness” crowd. I’d like Uber to go more toward what it’s supposed to be and get rid of all the stupid bonuses and stuff and just work with supply and demand. When it’s busy surges in price and people that know how to work Uber “pros” would dominate. One thing you and I agree on is that the hybrid approach they use sucks. You just want it to go one way and I want it to go to the other.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Seamus said:


> I agree with everything you said. Additionally even within the state bureaucracies and courts the issues are more complex. People have a tendency to way oversimplify things to make them black or white.
> 
> In NYS the unemployment appeals commission and the NYS Supreme Court have ruled Uber Drivers are employees. You would think that would mean that in NYS Uber drivers are now considered employees And the matter is settle. Nope. Why? Because the rulings were so narrow that they applied to three individuals for the purpose of getting paid unemployment Benefits! (Pre Covid)


Well let me give you the benefit of my past experience on that one too to let your brain melt a little further: There is no contradiction there. That's perfectly right. No matter how many people a decision applies to, in most states being determined an employee for purposes of unemployment will not make that class employees. Unemployment is independent and cases only apply to eligibility for benefits. Even if the state's SC hears the case and uses the word employee, it's only in appeal for a decision on eligibility and the agency has no authority beyond that, so neither does the decision.

In most places, you can literally be determined an employee for the purposes of a state's unemployment, disability, worker comp, and still not legally be an employee. That's in part because all those departments are employee benefits, but a lot of the qualifications were written to assume they would only logically apply to actual employees so there are gaping loopholes in the verbiage for most of them. They don't apply anywhere beyond benefits acceptance.


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## 232200 (7 mo ago)

To all you morons crying we should be treated like employees, be careful what you wish for. Do you really want to exchange a guaranteed hourly salary which would be only minimum wage for Uber telling you where and when to work? Do you want Uber to give you a schedule, be subject to employee reviews annually? I get it, you want some of the employee benefits, I was an employee for a black car service for 20 years. The pros are great, we got 3 weeks vacation, company paid all the expenses, but they not only controlled when I work, if it was busy they demanded working 20-35 hours a week overtime. While I never complained about this, because I love overtime, many of you couldn’t handle basically working a double shift 5 days in a row. And if it was slow, we’ll you worked 4-5 hours and they sent you home.

What you should be asking for, or demanding is a better rate card, and due process in the event of a passenger complaint. You should demand they provide us with a drive cam that both us and them have full access to, and to quickly review the footage in the event of any passenger accusation. This should also be a matter that should be resolved in one hour or less. The technology makes this very simple. A passenger makes a complaint/accusation, they bring up the cam footage, they will see who is telling the truth.

I can’t think of any thing else we should demand, but if anyone here can, please feel free to add on.


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

Benefits of being an employee. 
1. Workmans comp. Probably the biggest game changer.
2.The service will run smoother, no more cherry picking rides, riders will be able to get places faster, and drivers will be forced to drive in inner cities that are under served.
3. While you will lose the deduction, you will get mileage reimbursement.
4. No more destination filter or surge, but minimum wage will more than make up for it. When the shift is over you will dead mile home just like any w-2 job. No big deal.
5. Riders with very low ratings will be allowed to have a second chance as we all know ratings system is unfair, drivers just cant ignore people with a 4.2 rating.
6. Health care for those who drive over 30 hours. HUGE!
7. A dress code, no more sweats and t shirts. This will help boost morale in the long run.
8. Shifts, busy areas drivers will have shifts, and you will get money even on a slow day no more fear of not getting pings, you're taken care of as long as you accept every ride on your shift.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

dnlbaboof said:


> Benefits of being an employee.
> 1. Workmans comp. Probably the biggest game changer.
> 2.The service will run smoother, no more cherry picking rides, riders will be able to get places faster, and drivers will be forced to drive in inner cities that are under served.
> 3. While you will lose the deduction, you will get mileage reimbursement.
> ...


Wonderful.

Minimum wage.

And part time status.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

In florida...

Dominoes, Pizza The hut, ect..

They pay $11.00 + .585 a mile plus tips. Plus you get paid to help prep orders while you are at the store., cleanup ect.


It can amount to $15-20 an hour easily. Scroober, Gryft, FloorTrash ect?

Good luck getting $10 an hour minus costs. 2 $5.00 ping an hour on uber/lyft would require getting near constant pings that arn't min payouts. if you get too many Min pings and you are under $10.00 an hour.


The delivery apps and ridesharing on the other hand require 10 TIMES plus the number of miles ot hopefully make $10.00 before expenses.

With the pay on a constant downslide.


And i'm 100% sure that the delivery companies are going to up the per mile rate with the standard mileage rate getting a boost for the remainder of 2022.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Judge and Jury said:


> Wonderful.
> 
> Minimum wage.
> 
> And part time status.


In florida as employees..

Uber
20 hours $11.00 an hour Plus tips plus .585 per mile
$222 + $230-250 in tax free reimbursement plus tips

Lyft
20 hours $11.00 an hour Plus tips plus .585 per mile
$222 + $230-250 in tax free reimbursement plus tips

Door dash
20 hours 11 an hour pls tips plus .585 per mile
$222 + $100-150 plus tips

Total $666 + ($560- $650 tax free) Plus tips

For a total of $1200-1300 + tips


Currently at $7-12 an hour earning after 60 hours amounts to $420- $720 + tips


Is $1,200 to $1300 higher than 420- $720 ?

Cause the way I do my math, it is by a little bit.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> In florida...
> 
> Dominoes, Pizza The hut, ect..
> 
> ...


Market dependent.

Minimum wage?

So much to unpack, but not worth my time.

I make a lotta profit without scrubbing toilets.

Enough said.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Judge and Jury said:


> Market dependent.
> 
> Minimum wage?
> 
> ...


Considering that Florida is the worst paying market for uber/lyft and earnigns are consistently 10-12 an hour less than top markets in the us?


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Considering that Florida is the worst paying market for uber/lyft and earnigns are consistently 10-12 an hour less than top markets in the us?


Experiment, learn and adapt.

If that does not lead to profitability, then your market may not be viable.

May be time to move on to other endeavors.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> In florida as employees..
> 
> Uber
> 20 hours $11.00 an hour Plus tips plus .585 per mile
> ...


I can’t even follow your “math” and your numbers don’t even begin to correlate to my 5 years experience.

Bottom line, some people figure out how to employ strategies that make them a decent amount of money from gig work. Doing DD/GH I usually do $25 to $35 per hour. Some others don’t really get it but manage $15 per hour. Many never get it, make no money and quit.

You can’t get blood from a stone and if market conditions are such that it’s not doable for you, you find something else and move on. I used to do Uber XL and consistently made $45+ per hour. Then in 2019 Uber took away the multiplier surge and no matter what I tried my pay was reduced by 2/3 so I deleted the app and moved on to something else.

Those that do well don’t want to be employees and are so far beyond minimum wage that any talk of minimum wage earnings is dumbed down earnings that they have no interest in. Bottom feeders who never figure out how to do well are the ones most interested in making minimum wage.

If becoming a W2 driver for Domino’s is a step up then you’re pretty much screwed.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Seamus said:


> I can’t even follow your “math” and your numbers don’t even begin to correlate to my 5 years experience.
> 
> Bottom line, some people figure out how to employ strategies that make them a decent amount of money from gig work. Doing DD/GH I usually do $25 to $35 per hour. Some others don’t really get it but manage $15 per hour. Many never get it, make no money and quit.
> 
> ...


Curious.

25 to 35 bucks per hour.

Is that active time or driveway to driveway?

Thought dollars per mile was your profitability indicator.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

There is no way I’d do this if all I would make is minimum wage. There are tons of easy W2 jobs out there begging for people. 
I also would not do this job as an employee. No way would I put in the hours or wear on my vehicle for someone who assigned my shifts. Nobody would pay what it would cost to lease my car and services 8 hours a day. 
Luckily I don’t have to contribute to SSA any more. That is a thing that is going to severely hurt a lot of gig workers. If they don’t contribute to SSA then when they "retire" they are not going to have anything to draw on and will be destitute.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Vagabond1 said:


> I don't understand why the people who are always so up in arms about this don't just go get a regular job. Or is it because they can't and downloading an app with no interview is the only way they can get a company to let them work?
> 
> Because honestly if any of these people were employable and believed what they were saying about being employees and none of us making more than $15 an hour net, they'd take a car service employed driver job for $20 an hour and get on with their lives. No special license needed. Jobs available all over the country. Have at it. They wouldn't be in here trying to get us to help force Uber to hire them.


Whether or not people drive for gig companies they should be up in arms about their corrupt business model because every tax payer in the US is subsidizing it via pubic assistance. They also drag down wages via their race to the bottom.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Atavar said:


> Now there’s an answer that makes sense. Why let one company screw with you when you can let three companies screw with you. Lol


Your response displays a lack of understanding of what competition is and how it affects the marketplace.

The more companies that enter a marketplace, the better it is for both consumers and workers. 

More rideshare companies means more demand for drivers which in turn puts upward pressure on wages, benefits, working conditions, etc.

In a competitive marketplace, companies that mistreat their drivers or refuse to pay competitive wages will go out of business due to lack of drivers.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Wil Mette said:


> If the federal rule were clear, there would be no discussion here. The courts have 20 questions of control that help determine our status. We are solid on at least 1/3 of them, making us employees, and probably 12 lean toward us being employees, but even then, it is up to the courts to decide if the 12 outweigh the 8. CA courts simplified it to 3 questions, the ABC test, and if even one leans toward being an employee, then we are employees. Other state courts are expected to follow the CA court's ABC test. They ruled that we were employees. Then Prop 22 passed for CA, but that has been ruled unconstitutional.
> 
> WA has passed a bill making rideshare drivers ICs. For some reason, they felt it was necessary for the state to determine the status, maybe because it was unclear.
> 
> ...


You're correct.

The laws are extremely vague and porous with loopholes large enough for an aircraft carrier to fit thru them.

It's no accident the laws are like this. You can bet your ass that business lobbyists made sure they'd be that way.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Vagabond1 said:


> The federal standard is very clear. Once again, states have the right to expand their rules _*on top of*_ those standards, which is all you're saying happened. There is no "the courts" until it's the Supreme Court. It's just courts in _*a*_ state deciding for _*that*_ state.
> 
> Repeating the same argument will not overrule the base fact. The IRS and DOL set federal standards and provide them publicly for independent contractors, common-law employees, statutory employees, and statutory nonemployees. Hit the Google machine. It's all there. What states mandate *in addition* is up to those states.
> 
> ...


They're not clear at all. To refer to them as wishy-washy would be a huge understatement. 

Take a look at the IRS "test" and you'll see it's full of conditional statements such as "could be" ,"indicates", "typically", etc.

It's no accident that it's like Jello. Lots of lobbying took place.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Judge and Jury said:


> Curious.
> 
> 25 to 35 bucks per hour.
> 
> ...


Driveway to Driveway.

Dollars per mile is my main indicator and what I focus my strategy on. Dollars per hour is not meaningful to me except to see if my time is worth doing app work. I measure both but D/M is far more important to understanding profitability and strategy analysis. 

However, although D/H is not useful to profitability, it does play into strategy and is important for cycle time turnover. In my market, traffic can play into location and time decision making. You want to be as profitable per mile as possible, while reducing the offer to drop off cycle. (Make more, faster)

Since 90% of the UP members talk in terms of dollars per hour I’ll discuss it but recognize it has very little to do with profitability.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Seamus said:


> Bottom line, some people figure out how to employ strategies that make them a decent amount of money from gig work. Doing DD/GH I usually do $25 to $35 per hour. Some others don’t really get it but manage $15 per hour. Many never get it, make no money and quit.


Agreed, but ... I tell you I get pretty perplexed in here sometimes. People who make nothing yelling at people who make something that they're liars and it's impossible. People who make something insulting people who make nothing like it's 100% their own fault without ever offering any advice (that's not you, Seamus). People telling a tax accountant they understand IRS regulations better than him after reading a top level web page, like that completes the picture of literally thousands of pages of regulations and hearing outcomes on a single topic, rather than trying to have a conversation to learn something. That accountant doing someone else's math for him with a bunch of vehicle assumptions involved instead of all the facts (ok that was me and it was not my best moment).

I mean the objectivity in here is in the single digit percentiles sometimes. It's easy to get lost with all this nonsense. So after a particularly bewildered day yesterday on here, I was sitting in the TPA waiting lot watching the X / Comfort / Premier / XL numbers and the corresponding cars coming in and out of the lot, and I talked to a couple people as we wiped the cars down between rain spurts, all of which I was doing largely because I didn't really want to work. LOL! Anyway, it's so different in person. Much more in your heart than in your face even though it was largely the same conversation as this one. And I came away with this.

So, yes, if I'm making $30 an hour, I don't want minimum wage plus whatever and I don't want to hear it. And yes, if someone else is making $8 an hour after gas, he wants minimum wage and thinks this is a scam. But the intangible thing we hardly ever talk about in here is that sometimes a crappy situation can't be helped. We all want to think we're in the same boat, but we're not.

I watched a lady in a Scion come in and out of that lot four times in three hours. She probably came in and out more times when I was out on a ride. I might not have driven back to the airport after every ride like she did and upped my earnings by stopping when the bonus period ended if I was actually trying to work last night, but there were surges on top of the $6 boost per ride for a few hours there and she was definitely working it. But she's got a Scion. And she's tiny. She couldn't have lifted some of the luggage I've seen wheeled out to my car if she wanted to. And she had this nervous kind of impersonal quality to her.

Then there's the guy in the older Honda who was very personable and smiley, and also spoke enough English to get people from A to B with a "How is your day?" and that's about it. And he was SO grateful to have this opportunity to make his place in the world, making squat.

And more of course, all compared to me and the guy in the ginormous Suburban and the guy next to me in the BMW, all three of us clean cut non-threatening white males in our 50s qualified for higher priced rides wearing black collared shirts and doing fine.

I know we've talked about nice cars vs ... not nice cars, and whatever, but the impact of all this in person with all of us right next to each other talking really is a whole different picture. How do these very nice people I'm watching work their butts off who will only ever get UberX rides in their compact cars and can't play Jeeves, really now, compete with me in my glass roofed Lincoln with 20% of my rides being Comfort or Premier, where I get paid anywhere from 20% to 100% more for those rides, and undoubtedly get better tips because I'm an educated white dude who can talk to the riders about almost anything and am throwing their luggage into the trunk for them and holding the door like I'm the personal butler to these people who paid for Comfort or Premier in the first place (I don't think that's going to have the same effect on an X ride in a Scion), and telling them to set their own temperature from the back seat with their own controls and also feel free to tell me if they'd like music, news, sports, whatever on the 400+ station satellite feed. Or compete with Seamus or anybody else with a nice XL vehicle that's always busy at the airport for twice the price and otherwise in a similar situation to me. Actually I think the XL folks have the even better situation. They're a requirement. My rides are a preference.

We could math them to death and give them every trick we ever learned, and it's never going to be the same. We will always automatically make an extra 30%.

You know I didn't give this much credence before because I was making money when I was doing this in my pickup truck in a T-shirt and before I qualified for the better rides (though not as much), but my pickup truck was a cavernous backseat SuperCrew that was pretty luxurious and I was still the same person. I still had a number of advantages over those people in the lot who were bustling back and forth for probably an average of 2/3rds what I would make on the exact same ride volume and miles over the course of a night with no path to the better paying rides.

So, maybe we earners give ourselves too much credit. As Seamus pointed out, one change on the platform was all it took to cut his earnings enough to leave.

I still think that means if the job doesn't suit you there are plenty of jobs out there for you to go do without ruining this opportunity for the rest of us, frankly, just like Seamus did. And this was never designed to be a full time job in the first place, and certainly not for absolutely everybody no matter who or where. The entitlement factor IS a little high in this debate. This was always presented as take it or leave it gig work, not a "job." But perhaps things aren't as black and white as we (me too) like to think. Nobody likes to fail, and nobody wants to see someone else succeed in the same place and wonder why they can't do it. But I think circumstance might have a lot more to do with it than competence in many cases.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Your response displays a lack of understanding of what competition is and how it affects the marketplace.
> 
> The more companies that enter a marketplace, the better it is for both consumers and workers.
> 
> ...


It’s a nice orderly fantasy


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## robert2 (Nov 7, 2015)

dnlbaboof said:


> Benefits of being an employee.
> 1. Workmans comp. Probably the biggest game changer.
> 2.The service will run smoother, no more cherry picking rides, riders will be able to get places faster, and drivers will be forced to drive in inner cities that are under served.
> 3. While you will lose the deduction, you will get mileage reimbursement.
> ...


Well said - but a bit further- Uber is a dishonest company (I know- which company isn’t?) but Uber is particularly egregious because it is trying to change (illegally) the worldwide employee system. If such illegality were to go unchecked then gm Exxon and virtually all employment would be “independent contractor”!


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Vagabond1 said:


> But I think circumstance might have a lot more to do with it than competence.


While partially true, to a larger degree I have found having a strategy and keeping and analyzing data, along with experience, lead to much better outcomes for the higher performers.

When I started in 2017 I was a blind ant like most are and didn't do too well at the beginning. I, like a few others on here, started keeping spreadsheets of data. Looking at the data allowed me to see when I did better and when I did lower. Analyzing this data then allowed me to go out with a strategy. Afterwards, I could keep recording data and analyzing it and constantly re tweaking the strategy. When you sign on and go out with a strategy and knowledge, you will do better than blind ants. 

Basic Example:
Years ago I used to go to a regional airport to start my Friday night. I KNEW THE ARRIVING FLIGHT SCHEDULES LIKE THE BACK OF MY HAND. Used to amaze me that Uber drivers would sit in the lot during gaps in the schedule waiting for rides that aren't coming.

This was when the multiplier surge was still in effect. There was a time on Friday night 3 planes came in within 15 minutes of each other. I would sit there declining all the offers on the first 2 planes while all the blind ants took them. By the 3rd plane there Was a driver shortage and I was ready and would decline offers until the 2.5x to 3.0x surge came in which it always did. All things equal I got $48 for a ride the "blind ant" got $16 for.

Yes, markets are circumstantial but how you operate within your parameters makes a big difference. Too many drivers hop in their car and their only plan or strategy is just turning the app on. Someone with experience, knowledge, and a strategy will outperform the blind ant any day of the week.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Seamus said:


> While partially true, to a larger degree I have found having a strategy and keeping and analyzing data, along with experience, lead to much better outcomes for the higher performers.
> 
> When I started in 2017 I was a blind ant like most are and didn't do too well at the beginning. I, like a few others on here, started keeping spreadsheets of data. Looking at the data allowed me to see when I did better and when I did lower. Analyzing this data then allowed me to go out with a strategy. Afterwards, I could keep recording data and analyzing it and constantly re tweaking the strategy. When you sign on and go out with a strategy and knowledge, you will do better than blind ants.
> 
> ...


All absolutely true, and always my same argument. I did the same, as you know. And like I said, if I was that lady in the Scion, as soon as the $6 boost was over, I probably would have left the airport and taken my break and waited an hour for more bonuses, or headed to one of the other surge areas where the wait time would have been 5 minutes instead of 15 at the airport for that hour to keep myself from having a crap hour and blowing my average for the night. There are always tricks to learn.

But I wonder with this new pay structure (at least here in Tampa) how much that would actually change something for someone who only qualifies for X. There is no more $48 for a $16 here. Maybe on a good day like yesterday it's an $18 instead of a $12 if you time a surge and boost right when the lot is empty, which happened at least twice last night.

I've always agreed with you on everything (and basically still do here), but again at least here in Tampa as an example, the Upfront Pricing and Boost+ thing does make me feel a little like the X-only crowd is a bit behind the 8 ball. Only if they can work exactly the right hours in the right places with some flexibility in how long they can be out could they manage my average hour. And I know that because I did it briefly before changing vehicles after the new pay structure. The volume is simply not there for the number of drivers we have except for the truly busy periods, and Uber is constantly putting up boosts and busy-area notices when it's not actually busy so those people are just sitting around for long periods. Even a good ride rate after doesn't necessarily equal a good hour or night overall.

Maybe the field's tipping some. I do make less now myself on all the base rates. It's only made up for because of the timing in my switching vehicles. On the other side of the coin, if someone is only working a few hours per week they get what they get and if someone is full timing this they SHOULD be able to work the right hours and time. If I'm having a crappy night, I drive to another city. I suppose I could say nobody in my market has a good excuse to do otherwise and then complain about it.

Still most of us who are in here saying "Ya but I make $30 an hour" or whatever the number is tend to be Select / Premier / Black / XL, at the very least Comfort, or in a market where they also talk about huge surges and they're working 10+ hours per day. If all the new bells and whistles in Tampa roll out as a regular thing, that only gets worse for the X crowd.

I dunno, I can't decide if I'm playing devil's advocate or Mr. Compassion. And like I said I do think if you don't like it, move on. I've been very consistent about that. But there is something niggling at me on the fairness scale. Not enough to say we should be employees, but something.


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## CaptainToo (Dec 5, 2017)

What work arrangement could be more 'independent' in any sensible meaning of the word independent, than one were the worker decides on a minute to minute basis, who to work for - Lyft, Uber, DoorDash, Amazon and many others - or whether to work at all...
The arguement that rideshare drivers represent employees is simply silly.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Vagabond1 said:


> But I wonder with this new pay structure (at least here in Tampa) how much that would actually change something for someone who only qualifies for X. There is no more $48 for a $16 here. Maybe on a good day like yesterday it's an $18 instead of a $12 if you time a surge and boost right when the lot is empty, which happened at least twice last night.


Exactly right. The example I cited was from 2019. No more multiplier surge, game over. Exactly why I do not do pax anymore, only delivery. There are still delivery strategies that work thank God. I only cited that airport as an example.

At base rates I don’t believe Uber X drivers can make decent money. There has to be surges, quests, bonus payouts etc. or it’s not worth doing.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Seamus said:


> Exactly right. The example I cited was from 2019. No more multiplier surge, game over. Exactly why I do not do pax anymore, only delivery. There are still delivery strategies that work thank God. I only cited that airport as an example.
> 
> At base rates I don’t believe Uber X drivers can make decent money. There has to be surges, quests, bonus payouts etc. or it’s not worth doing.


My "Quest" this weekend is a 40 ride $15 jest.

Oh ya I got you completely about the timing and example. And there still are strategies that work in rideshare here, obviously. I mean I'm still here. And that still includes your airport example, just for a little less of a stretch. I just don't know if they're quite as equally available as they were even with surges, boosts, whatevers.


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## 232200 (7 mo ago)

dnlbaboof said:


> Benefits of being an employee.
> 1. Workmans comp. Probably the biggest game changer.
> 2.The service will run smoother, no more cherry picking rides, riders will be able to get places faster, and drivers will be forced to drive in inner cities that are under served.
> 3. While you will lose the deduction, you will get mileage reimbursement.
> ...


Forgive my ignorance, but I seriously can‘t tell if this is sarcasm or not.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Seamus said:


> Yes, markets are circumstantial but how you operate within your parameters makes a big difference. Too many drivers hop in their car and their only plan or strategy is just turning the app on. Someone with experience, knowledge, and a strategy will outperform the blind ant any day of the week.


Never mind. You talked me out of my compassionate moment. I'm back where I was yesterday. All the snippy snapping turtles should get out of the pond and leave the fish for the barracudas. Alternatively learn from the barracudas and become one.

I knew I could count on you. Thank you, sir. LOL!


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## 232200 (7 mo ago)

Atavar said:


> There is no way I’d do this if all I would make is minimum wage. There are tons of easy W2 jobs out there begging for people.
> I also would not do this job as an employee. No way would I put in the hours or wear on my vehicle for someone who assigned my shifts. Nobody would pay what it would cost to lease my car and services 8 hours a day.
> Luckily I don’t have to contribute to SSA any more. That is a thing that is going to severely hurt a lot of gig workers. If they don’t contribute to SSA then when they "retire" they are not going to have anything to draw on and will be destitute.


I agree with everything you said, but every time I see someone post about wear and tear on their car, I have to say that’s the price of doing business. I estimate around $8 an hour to run the car, that’s all expenses. So the formula is simple, calculate your earnings for the week, deduct $8 an hour x the number of hours worked, and youll see the true number you make per hour. I see so many saying they make x amount per week, and don’t factor in more than the cost of gas. The $8 an hour can vary between drivers of course, depending on the car you drive, insurance costs, main costs etc. a reliable beater that you do your own maintenance on, and drive long hours may bring the cost down lower.


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

AB5 said:


> Uber drivers are the core of there business which makes drivers employees. Just because you want to hide from the IRS, students loans and child support does not change this. How many of you so could IC get SSI VA benefits Food stamps and don't report the earnings? Wake you are a employee of Uber.


-------------------------------
Sorry but more research is needed on your part.. Do you actually think that the State and Fed government would allow them to continue, for 14+ years, to classify drivers as sub-contractors when we are actually employees ?? Think of the money the government would be making with all those drivers..
Not to mention -- employees use a company car , never their personal car. 
They have a designated work area, time schedule and assignments - none apply to RideShare..

Find a better battle to fight.. You will get your ass kicked with this one.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Judge and Jury said:


> Experiment, learn and adapt.
> 
> If that does not lead to profitability, then your market may not be viable.
> 
> May be time to move on to other endeavors.




Like driving a taxi and making 3-5 times as much per loaded mile?

The biggest issue with the Orlando market, aside from the dogshit rates is the large number of Fifo queues.

There's 5 venues that exceed a large concert that close _every single night.

Think about that for a minute._

And because they are fifo queues the money ends up beign dogshit, or pings from way too far away to make any damned sense with uber/lyft.














https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/all/articles/115013081608-Giving-Rides-at-Walt-Disney-World



For funsies look at the sheer distances between the staging lots and the pickup areas, its maddening.

The entire disney world experience boils down to get into staging lots and make shit money because it's fares out of a staging lot.

You can easily be car 20-25 when you arrive and you might wait an hour.


Now your ping count is in the absolute gutter.


On top of that once you get a ping the "average" trip from anywhere to disney only pays out $20-25. FOR TAXIS.

$4-8 for uber/lyft without a surge.



So that means that THIS. Situation generates merely dogshit pay.











When I work disney world in a taxi I can get 1.5 to 2 $20.00 rides an hour. Spend 5 hours and I'll get 6-7 loads paying $125-150

1.5 to to $5-8 rides an hour on uber/lyft amounts to $10.00 an hour if you're lucky.


So you could work elsewhere and chase surge?

Well that means you're looking at $6-9 rides and heavy traffic.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

UberPro1969 said:


> I agree with everything you said, but every time I see someone post about wear and tear on their car, I have to say that’s the price of doing business. I estimate around $8 an hour to run the car, that’s all expenses. So the formula is simple, calculate your earnings for the week, deduct $8 an hour x the number of hours worked, and youll see the true number you make per hour. I see so many saying they make x amount per week, and don’t factor in more than the cost of gas. The $8 an hour can vary between drivers of course, depending on the car you drive, insurance costs, main costs etc. a reliable beater that you do your own maintenance on, and drive long hours may bring the cost down lower.


Agreed. But there’s a difference between wear and tear on my own accord and wear and tear in support of someone else’s business.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Atavar said:


> Agreed. But there’s a difference between wear and tear on my own accord and wear and tear in support of someone else’s business.


Yeeah...

I had a 2010 Sienna minivan.

I'm 100% sure that if i hadn't used it for driving passengers around I wouldn't have put 230,000 miles on it in under 4 years and gotten $1,000 minus tow fee to get rid of it in 2014.


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## 232200 (7 mo ago)

Atavar said:


> Agreed. But there’s a difference between wear and tear on my own accord and wear and tear in support of someone else’s business.


You’re exchanging the wear and tear for money. If the money you’re getting in exchange for the wear and tear isn’t worth it, move on. Jobs are plentiful right now. I’m actually leaving money on the table working for Uber. Not much, but I consider the flexibility worth it.


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## 232200 (7 mo ago)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Yeeah...
> 
> I had a 2010 Sienna minivan.
> 
> I'm 100% sure that if i hadn't used it for driving passengers around I wouldn't have put 230,000 miles on it in under 4 years and gotten $1,000 minus tow fee to get rid of it in 2014.


But you made money putting those miles on. You have to calculate if the money you made was worth those miles. If the money wasn’t worth it, time for a new job.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

UberPro1969 said:


> But you made money putting those miles on. You have to calculate if the money you made was worth those miles. If the money wasn’t worth it, time for a new job.


Over $200,000 minus gas and other vehicle expenses.

But the fact of the matter is that I completely burned out s Toyota in 4 years. Which is damned impressive for s Toyota.


Fact is that we need to be considering about $10.00 an hour as expenses. Gas, vehicles expenses ect.


If I go by that metric, we’ll Uber doesn’t pay a damned thing in my town and you are trading vehicle equity for cash.


Under my metrics I need $25 an hour to make $15 and have it be better than working for Disney world.

I couldn’t make half that while taking constant pings and driving my ass off.


And fact I’d the matter is that I’m going to continue botching about the pay until it’s at least remotely close to what I can make driving a taxi in the same town.

I currently have a car licensed as permitted as a taxi. Insurance for that runs me $17 a day and permits cost all of $1.50 a day.


So for $18.00 a day in proper licensure and insurance I can quadruple my per ride revenue and double to triple my total revenue, with lower miles driven just cruising for customers from my hot spots and not having dispatch beyond occasionally giving out my car for a return trip later.


I’m going to keep birching about the pay because they are paying what would be illegal wages if they were an employer while the drivers are slammed busy with back to back pings for hours of the day.


So this isn’t shit pay because there’s not enough pings and it’s a slow market. It’s shit pay because they are an evil company.


I occasionally take surge pings, but that’s honestly it. The only reason I take surge pings is because with s surge they can make pings almost worth taking.


But the last surge ping I took I found a flag down on the way and just switched off my phone and drove the flag downs. They tipped me $9.80 on s $10.20 fare, the Uber ping had canceled on me so no biggie.


I take flag downs on the way to Uber pings so often it’s not even funny. I really don’t care…. Either it’s such a short distance the customer is going that I can knock it out in 4 minutes and be up $5-$10 or better then the $10.00 minimum Uber ping would be anyway.


And yeah I reject anything under about $5.00 surge making my min Uber trip $10.


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## 232200 (7 mo ago)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Over $200,000 minus gas and other vehicle expenses.
> 
> But the fact of the matter is that I completely burned out s Toyota in 4 years. Which is damned impressive for s Toyota.
> 
> ...


I’m my market I average $35-40 an hour. This is over the course of the week. Some individual days I’ll average 20 an hour. Today I averaged around 40 an hour. Some hours were slow, but the last 4 hours I averaged $60. I figure the hours I work it costs me around $8 to run the car. If anyone can’t make at least $15 an hour in a depressed market, after expenses they need to park the car. Because jobs are plentiful everywhere. This business isn’t for everyone


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Like driving a taxi and making 3-5 times as much per loaded mile?
> 
> The biggest issue with the Orlando market, aside from the dogshit rates is the large number of Fifo queues.
> 
> ...


Orlando has either the largest or close to the largest spreads between taxi rates and rideshare rates in the entire US.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

KK2929 said:


> Not to mention -- employees use a company car , never their personal car.


That statement is false. There are millions of employees who use their own vehicles. Dominos pizza drivers are just one example of many.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

CaptainToo said:


> What work arrangement could be more 'independent' in any sensible meaning of the word independent, than one were the worker decides on a minute to minute basis, who to work for - Lyft, Uber, DoorDash, Amazon and many others - or whether to work at all...
> The arguement that rideshare drivers represent employees is simply silly.


You can remove Doordash from that list because despite their false advertising claims to the contrary, you CANNOT work when you want for Doordash.

Not only do many DD markets require drivers to schedule their shifts, DD can and very often does end Dashes of drivers who displease them (cherrypick). Often times those drivers are then forced to schedule new Dashes.


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## tkman (Apr 13, 2020)

UberPro1969 said:


> I agree with everything you said, but every time I see someone post about wear and tear on their car, I have to say that’s the price of doing business. I estimate around $8 an hour to run the car, that’s all expenses. So the formula is simple, calculate your earnings for the week, deduct $8 an hour x the number of hours worked, and youll see the true number you make per hour. I see so many saying they make x amount per week, and don’t factor in more than the cost of gas. The $8 an hour can vary between drivers of course, depending on the car you drive, insurance costs, main costs etc. a reliable beater that you do your own maintenance on, and drive long hours may bring the cost down lower.


I generally agree with what you are saying however I feel a cost per mile for your vehicle is more meaningful. Sitting idle for an hour does not cost as much on your vehicle as driving 30 miles in an hour. Of course if you are saying the major costs don't rely on miles per hour (insurance, depreiciation). I find price per mile is more effective to determine total cost. After total costs are deducted one then has a hourly rate. Each to their own and whatever works best for you. You do you.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

tkman said:


> Sitting idle for an hour does not cost as much on your vehicle as driving 30 miles in an hour.
> 
> Each to their own and whatever works best for you.


Unless you're an airport driver sitting in a Florida waiting lot for an hour at a clip running the AC in 95+ degree temps. That's still wear and tear in high temps and usually a gallon of gas an hour, the same gallon it would take to go your 30 mile example for many people, but with 0 miles. Or you tool around downtown mostly sitting at lights and not racking up miles, but burning fuel at a per mile rate much higher than when you're on the highway.

Not contradicting you, just supporting your conclusion that it's whatever works for someone because we don't all drive the same way or in the same circumstances, and we all need to consider that when we decide for ourselves how to determine our costs. 

My average day I get a fair number of highway miles, so actual fuel costs daily and then per mile overall on operating expenses has worked. But I've started experimenting with ways to have a higher percentage of Premier rides, which means more wait time, which in turn has made me have to reevaluate what used to work. For example, 5,000 miles to an oil change is no longer a good number if the engine is idling as often as it's pulling. I probably have to knock that down by half, and that makes my flat rate per mile higher than average.


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## pwnzor (Jun 27, 2017)

Wil Mette said:


> Employees in California get 58.5 cents per mile for all miles driven in their personal vehicles when they are working.


That's not just California (it takes various forms in different states), and a personal vehicle is not a company vehicle, therefore the extra pay.


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## Rideshare drv (Aug 8, 2019)

I know this is an old post but since the recession is coming all remaining drivers are going to go belly up.
so i think this is something that you should listen.
i am posting a link were the CEO from uber actually think and believes drivers are employees but yet when it comes to pay or expenses we are I.C. for their convenience. this rideshare companies are paying big bucks to Lobbyists to pass unfair laws like Proposition 22 in California and they are trying to do the same in other states, that law is nothing but a shield for Rideshare companies, it protect them from preventing drivers to have rights,
so as a driver do not be deceive and spread the word to people who vote, because that is how they won in California people voting in their favor under false and empty promises.
So going back to the video link. Listen how Uber's CEO Says
*Company Is ‘Recession Resistant,’ Sees No Job Cuts*
Khosrowshahi said driver supply increased 78% in May from a year earlier.
Instead of saying (See no Independent Contractor cuts) he calls it a Job.
A job is when someone is under a payroll of a company. DRIVERS ARE NOT UNDER THEIR PAYROLL.
I hope you guys wise up and get out of that vicious rideshare cycle and get a JOB or start your own INDEPENDENT COMPANY as a rideshare driver. .


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Orlando has either the largest or close to the largest spreads between taxi rates and rideshare rates in the entire US.


That's not hard disagree with,

Orlando has teh lowest rates in the US/Canada and the taxi rates are relativly consistent accross the US/canada.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

UberPro1969 said:


> I’m my market I average $35-40 an hour. This is over the course of the week. Some individual days I’ll average 20 an hour. Today I averaged around 40 an hour. Some hours were slow, but the last 4 hours I averaged $60. I figure the hours I work it costs me around $8 to run the car. If anyone can’t make at least $15 an hour in a depressed market, after expenses they need to park the car. Because jobs are plentiful everywhere. This business isn’t for everyone


Orlando isn't a _depressed_ market.

It's very possible to get back to back pings all night long, and then it's still next to impossible to make $15 an hour BEFORE expenses.

Uber/lyft have the Orlando market priced at a point it's impossible to thrive.

That's about all there is to it.

"average" uber ping.

$1.00 base
10 minutes .08 X 10 =$.80
9 miles X .53 =$4.77
$6.57

"Average" taxi fare
$2.40 base
5 minutes of under 20MPH time = $2.25
5 miles X $2.4 = $14.40
$16.65


Uber pings tend to average out to a higher amoun of milest, as commuters simply don't take taxis to go to/from work at longer distances. Because they can't afford taxis at that price. They couldn't before uber and they can't now. Nothing has changed. 

Grand total on average taxi fares are shorter than uber fares, and taxi fares still average out to be over double the pay of an uber fare.


Last week I had a walk up at disney. An employee didn't want to pay surge to get home. Well after finding out how much a taxi would cost she decided to wait out the surge Frankly I don't blame her, knowing what disney employees make she couldn't afford (nor should be) spending half her DAY'S pay taking a cab home. The Girl needs to buy her owned damn car ASAP.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Rideshare drv said:


> Instead of saying (See no Independent Contractor cuts) he calls it a Job.
> A job is when someone is under a payroll of a company.


Lube job. Con job. Boob job. "Good job!" "That'll do the job."

Never mind all the sexual ones the system would just turn into **** if I typed them. A job is a task. A paid job (although still not necessarily a salaried one) is one use of a word we all use for all sorts of things every day. Expecting only him to be limited to one use and not talk like a regular person sounds a little .... intense.

I'm not arguing it is or isn't a real job here. Just playing devil's advocate to say I'm not sure that's really a smoking gun for deciding employment status.


----------



## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Maybe somebody can help me understand something. What I keep coming back to in my head is this "for downloading an app" part. Maybe that's where I'm failing.

I completely understand people who have been doing this for a long time feeling slighted by how they're paid changing with them often making less per hour or per ride or whatever, and that they should have some protection from that. That's perfectly valid.

I completely understand people wanting to know what they should expect to make upfront when they sign up so they're not disappointed when they do download the app and make less than they thought they should. That's also perfectly valid.

But employment as the answer .... how does that work, exactly? I haven't seen anything in these arguments that defeats the expectation Uber "hire" and be responsible for absolutely EVERYBODY who can download an app and pass a background check. Everybody? Just because they ask? No interviews, no experience criteria, everything the same as it is now but with an obligation to a paycheck?

And what about pay? A mom who only does this Monday through Friday from 1:00 to 3:00 PM before she picks up her kids from school in the suburbs, who may not even generate any revenue for the company, starts at the same hourly rate as someone who's hustling 40+ hours per week and working the bar hours every night in a big city and makes the company a ton of money, as long as they're in the same market?

I'm being serious. That's the part I don't get. I suppose we can talk about productivity bonuses and percentages or minimum hours per week or number of rides to qualify for the hourly rate, but people have not been talking about that really. What has been talked about implies, at least it seems to me, that people are expecting to be paid the same no matter when or how well they work based solely on the fact that they downloaded an app, AND still expect to be able to work whenever they want, wherever they want, for however many services at once as they want, just like now.

I'm sure some people have given this a lot of thought and have a lot of answers. There have been a couple comments. But overall the public conversations about this in thread after thread seems to boil down to "We should make minimum wage plus mileage and tips no matter what" for these reasons and "No we shouldn't" for these other reasons. Maybe it's the accountant in me, but that's why the logic seems to go off the rails for me sometimes.

Is there something more comprehensive in the expectations than "I downloaded an app, now you pay me" that I've missed in the vast majority of these posts?


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Vagabond1 said:


> Maybe somebody can help me understand something. What I keep coming back to in my head is this "for downloading an app" part. Maybe that's where I'm failing.
> 
> I completely understand people who have been doing this for a long time feeling slighted by how they're paid changing with them often making less per hour or per ride or whatever, and that they should have some protection from that. That's perfectly valid.
> 
> ...


 Not everyone should get the same hourly rate. I aggree with you on that.

I don't expect people who are putting a $50,000 cadilac Escalade to be paid the same rate as soccer mom wiht her minivan, or broke college student with over the hill camry.

If they don't do something like this there will ONLY be camrys on the platform.

Escalade > Minivan > Camry

black= 82c a mile 
XL =72c a mile 
X= 62c a mile


And they would get these rates for 100% of "on task" miles they drive for whatever level of service. To activly encourage bigger better cars on the apps and not murder the drivers for accepting lower level service.

The time rate? Well...

For time pay it would vary by level of service. Uberblack would net you 37c a minute while on uberblack pings only. And everyone (and i mean everyone) would get 18.7 while logged in and not on a fare, and X/XL drivers would only get 18.7 a minute while on a fare.

And that soccer mom logging on at 1-3:00 pm.

Some of those fares can have serious complicating factors. Like loading 50 bags of groceries or helping Nana Porter into her car and then ****ing around with her wheelchair/walker. 


However you do make a point but it's adjusted for.

When it's busier the drivers will more miles on the road and get more money.

If soccer mom only drives 15 miles per hour she's going to be getting $10.80 in mileage per hour, but a busier late night X driver could be driving 20-30 miles per hour and get paid out $12.40 to $18.60 per hour in mileage.


So yes, the busier drivers WILL GET MORE, because they will put in more miles.


----------



## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Not everyone should get the same hourly rate. I aggree with you on that.
> 
> I don't expect people who are putting a $50,000 cadilac Escalade to be paid the same rate as soccer mom wiht her minivan, or broke college student with over the hill camry.
> 
> ...


Ok, but that's not employment with guaranteed hourly pay. That's what we had before upfront pricing with better rates. That I'd gladly agree with even if it meant my Premium rate were lower and the X rate were better.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

That's min wage by IRS standards with enhancements for higher level of services, which they will need if they want anything but camrys on the platform.

62c per mile = current IRS standard mileag erate
18.7c per minute = $_11.00 per hour Which is florida min wage_

Min wage is minimum wage after deductions AKA min wage + mileage.


This i'm suggesting would allow them to comply with min wage without even doing garuntees or any of that crap.

18.7c a minute *while logged in*
38c a minute for black services while on pings (this would amount to $22.00 an hour while on black pings)
62c _*per mile for all miles*_ driven (X vehicle)
72c _*per mile for all miles*_ drive (XL)
82c _*per mile for all miles*_ driven Black

With half or less of miles paid I would have no problem in saying that for my market it would vastly vastly vastly increase mileage paid out.

82c per mile for all miles on black could easily result in $1.64 or even $2.46 per paid mile. This is a significant increase for my market. Also this is just a number I pulled out of my magical ass. It can be anything as long as it's higher than 62c.

X rates would be a huge increase over current rates as well. current rate is 53c per paid miles, my new rates would be 62c per all miles, which would bring it from..

(assuming 50% of miles are currently paid)
.53 per paid mile
$1.24 per paid mile


California's time pay would be 25c a minute while logged in and 50c a minute while on black/premium or whatever.

So it would be $15 an hour while on X pings and $30 an hour while on black pings.

A 60 mile 1 hour fare on my model with my numbers in california would pay out..
$49.20 mileage
+ $30 time
$89.20 + tips/tolls


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Rideshare drv said:


> I know this is an old post but since the recession is coming all remaining drivers are going to go belly up.
> so i think this is something that you should listen.
> i am posting a link were the CEO from uber actually think and believes drivers are employees but yet when it comes to pay or expenses we are I.C. for their convenience. this rideshare companies are paying big bucks to Lobbyists to pass unfair laws like Proposition 22 in California and they are trying to do the same in other states, that law is nothing but a shield for Rideshare companies, it protect them from preventing drivers to have rights,
> so as a driver do not be deceive and spread the word to people who vote, because that is how they won in California people voting in their favor under false and empty promises.
> ...


I'm pretty sure he was talking about Uber employees, not drivers, because recently he said Uber was going to slow down the hiring of new employees.


----------



## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> That's min wage by IRS standards with enhancements for higher level of services, which they will need if they want anything but camrys on the platform.
> 
> 62c per mile = current IRS standard mileag erate
> 18.7c per minute = $_11.00 per hour Which is florida min wage_
> ...


Sure, but again that's pay, not employment status. I think we all agree lowering the pay taking away rate cards (not in your market but elsewhere with upfront pricing) was a crap move and pay is a central issue. So like I said 20+ posts ago, let's all scream about pay. Pay certainly seems to be your thing. So my question about the reasoning for us all being poorly paid employees rather than poorly paid contractors for downloading an app and how that would even work is still out there.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Vagabond1 said:


> Sure, but again that's pay, not employment status. I think we all agree lowering the pay taking away rate cards (not in your market but elsewhere with upfront pricing) was a crap move and pay is a central issue. So like I said 20+ posts ago, let's all scream about pay. Pay certainly seems to be your thing. So my question about the reasoning for us all being poorly paid employees rather than poorly paid contractors for downloading an app and how that would even work is still out there.


There's no perfect solution here. There are pros and cons and tradeoffs.

I believe the best overall solution is for the govt to mandate what California had in 2020 but with MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS...

1) FULL TRANSPARENCY in all dealings with the drivers including FULL TRIP INFO, dispatch, ratings systems, etc. No more secrecy and no more lies.

2) Mandated Minimum Pay Rates of $1.75 Per Mile/$0.50 Per Minute/ $3.00 Base Fare/ $7.00 Minimum Fare

3) Mandated maximum Take Rate of 25% for the companies including Surges, Booking Fees, etc. This means that drivers will receive a minimum of 75% of every cent the companies collect from pax including Booking Fees.

4) No penalties or rewards based on AR (Top Dasher, Uber Pro, etc)

5) No punishment or harassment for declining work offers.

6) Major overhaul and/or abolition of ratings systems.

7) Abolition of the kangaroo courts and its "guilty til proven innocent" discipline system.

8) A transparent and fair deactivation appeals process.


What about delivery drivers? They need major improvements as well but that's a different topic for another time.


----------



## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> There's no perfect solution here. There are pros and cons and tradeoffs.
> 
> I believe the best overall solution is for the govt to mandate what California had in 2020 but with MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS...
> 
> ...


So your best overall solution is for us to remain independent contractors and be treated more fairly.

That was also my best overall solution.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Vagabond1 said:


> So your best overall solution is for us to remain independent contractors and be treated more fairly.
> 
> That was also my best overall solution.


I agree but the govt has to step in and regulate the gig companies and mandate all of the above changes, otherwise it means nothing.

The companies can't be trusted, their promises are worthless.

Without govt mandates NO improvement is safe. As we clearly saw in CA, the nanosecond the heat is off the companies will take away everything that benefits the drivers.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> I agree but the govt has to step in and regulate the gig companies and mandate all of the above changes, otherwise it means nothing.
> 
> The companies can't be trusted, their promises are worthless.
> 
> Without govt mandates NO improvement is safe. As we clearly saw in CA, the nanosecond the heat is off the companies will take away everything that benefits the drivers.


Prop. 22 in CA has increased my profits without any alteration to my cherry picking and multi-apping tactics.

Seems you are a few thousand miles away, but have intimate local knowledge regarding conditions in hundreds of different markets in CA.

LOL.

Prop. 22 was the lesser of evils but has actually increased the profitability of successful drivers.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

If the government doesn't step in uber/lyft can just keep ****ing us and like others have said any improvement will be temporary.

They are demented spinmasters of the highest order. Let's say the drivers strike, uber can "improve" the rates by just tweaking them in ways that the general public wouldn't understand and then slap a "garuntee" on it that the new math will work out better then 30 days later it turns out to be another pay cut when the garuntees stop.

Or are you saying that uber/lyft are beyond this level of asshatterry?



Without government protections you're looking at Orlando rates. They arn't this low now but they could be in the future.

Or do I need to remind you that the City of Orlando sets the rates that the cab company charges for rental taxis and sets the customer prices? Hey doesn't that set the entire math equation keeping the cab company from screwing me over?

Yeah, the cab company can't be trusted to do the things that uber has used to screw drivers into abject poverty.

I wonder if those things the city does protects my ability to earn?


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> If the government doesn't step in uber/lyft can just keep ****ing us and like others have said any improvement will be temporary.
> 
> They are demented spinmasters of the highest order. Let's say the drivers strike, uber can "improve" the rates by just tweaking them in ways that the general public wouldn't understand and then slap a "garuntee" on it that the new math will work out better then 30 days later it turns out to be another pay cut when the garuntees stop.
> 
> ...


OMG.

If you ain't profitable, move on.

Clamoring for gov't protection.

LOL. ok
.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Judge and Jury said:


> OMG.
> 
> If you ain't profitable, move on.
> 
> ...


 Government protection is the onlything keeping me from putting lemon juice in diluted horse piss and calling it mountain dew.


Government protection keeps employers from using child labor.


Government protection also causes safe work conditions

Safe food,

Safe drinks,

Medicines that arn't snake oil.


Government protections keep unsafe buildings from being made... usually...

Government protections keep manufacturers from taking their toxic waste in the nearest river, then stop "entrepneurs" from bottling the glowing goo and marketing as a "health tonic"


Please, don't say government protections like it's a bad thing.

Wintergreen flavor... yum.,







'










Triple distilled water...


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Government protection is the onlything keeping me from putting lemon juice in diluted horse piss and calling it mountain dew.
> 
> 
> Government protection keeps employers from using child labor.
> ...


LOL.

That first sentence was pretty funny.

Everything else is false analogies.

1099 contractors are actually small businesses.

Unprofitable contractors clamoring for government protection for their own poor choices.

Declare bankruptcy and move on. A time honored solution for unprofitable businesses.


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## Buff69 (May 25, 2021)

AB5 said:


> The question is about Uber being your boss. It is about US labor law and how Uber has done everything not to pay into Medicare SSA and Unemployment tax. A hybrid employee set up would work where you could have freedom and be a employee. The courier industry used it for 40 years until the laws changed. Uber needs to work with the government and make drivers employee and still have freedom. The money couriers made in the 1990s is 4 times as much as Uber drivers make.


It's time for Uber and Lyft to pay up...I would love to be and employee this freedom to drive and be a IC hasn't work..these guys are liars man..they didn't give a rats azz about us during the pandemic it was horrible man...all you drivers who support freedom to drive vs being a employee are clueless


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

AB5 said:


> It is about US labor law and how Uber has done everything not to pay into Medicare SSA and Unemployment tax.


I gotta say I have never understood why people feel this is important. Those taxes are insignificant and they just come out of what the company would normally budget for work output anyway. If they want to pay a $10 net on something, they pay you $10 straight out, or they give you $9.30ish and the government $.70ish. It's no extra skin off their nose.

I understand most people have not previously worked as an IC and some think it's some kind of hinky trick, but people who work from home or otherwise unsupervised routinely get paid this way and always have (in our lifetimes anyway). I've been paid this way my whole life. It's not something these companies have struggled to get away with, and they most certainly did not spend all this legal money to be able to do something that was already perfectly legal for tax purposes as opposed to keeping it this way to protect themselves.

Someone sitting in the TPA waiting lot with his also-Uber-driver girlfriend drinking beer for a half an hour waiting for their pings, which I just saw with my own eyes two days ago, is a much bigger liability to them as an employee than where they send the $.70.

And I think that's a big part of this argument. On the internet, we like to think we're all equal. If we're reasonable, we expect everyone else to be reasonable. If we're responsible, we expect everyone else to be responsible. If we're a lying ho', we think everyone else is probably going to be a lying ho'. We think of things as they apply to us. We don't often think that if we're responsibly doing our work there are three other people out there having accidents, driving with BO and a nasty attitude, or drinking right before a pickup. THEY'RE the issue.

Of course the company wants to keep as much money as it can, but really the tax thing is not a defacto savings. Being able to "deactivate" an app user as opposed to defending and being responsible for a disaster of an "employee" is a huge removed liability.

Taxes are easy. Unsupervised employees are a mine field.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Vagabond1 said:


> It's no extra skin off their nose.


That's BS.

Between minimum wage, FICA, Unemployment Insurance, Workers Comp, etc they're saving themselves as much as 30% or even more off the cost of employee status every year. And that doesn't include medical insurance and other benefits that employers often times pay.

Companies can't just pass along those costs onto the employees. If it was that simple companies wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail to keep this charade going. Most of the costs are paid by the employer.

Uber is saving BILLIONS of dollars in employee costs per year. By hiding destinations from the drivers they're saving billions of dollars more per year.

The lack of a safety net for the drivers combined with the artificially low pay rates means that ultimately Uber gets to offload a significant portion of their costs onto the TAXPAYERS.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> That's BS.
> 
> Between minimum wage, FICA, Unemployment Insurance, Workers Comp, etc they're saving themselves as much as 30% or even more off the cost of employee status every year. And that doesn't include medical insurance and other benefits that employers often times pay.
> 
> ...


I don't see why you think both can't be true. You're lumping a little insignificant 7.65% contribution for all those taxes in with tons of other expenses and caveats that weren't even mentioned to come up with it being worth billions.

The OP said "Uber has done everything not to pay into Medicare SSA and Unemployment tax." I just said that one factor is not the only factor for what this is about as stated, which you seem to also be saying.

You've had enough conversations with me that you know I'm an accountant. I might know a little bit about this stuff, no? I can tell you for a fact I have never once in 35 years of business consulting had a client say "Ya but how do we avoid the payroll taxes?" and had that be the bottom line. It's a nothing-burger. Any client that came close to that I would just answer "Advertise the job at $18.50 an hour instead of $20. You're sending the federal taxes in anyway. It's the same check to the same place. No cost increase." That was always the end of the story.

Not BS. You twisting what I said into something completely different, well ....

Everything you said is true, except the BS part, but also has nothing to do with what I actually said. Everything I said is also true.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Vagabond1 said:


> I don't see why you think both can't be true. You're lumping a little insignificant 7.65% contribution for all those taxes in with tons of other expenses and caveats that weren't even mentioned to come up with it being worth billions.
> 
> The OP said "Uber has done everything not to pay into Medicare SSA and Unemployment tax." I just said that one factor is not the only factor for what this is about as stated.
> 
> ...


My original point stands. Your "no extra skin off their nose" comment was BS. And so is your claim that the employer contribution to FICA is insignificant.

Uber grossed more than $100 billion last year. If drivers received even a third of that total we're talking $30 billion. 7.65% of $30 billion = $2.3 billion just for FICA. You consider $2.3 billion "insignificant"?

Add to that the other cost savings I listed in my previous post and we're talking many BILLIONS of dollars Uber is saving per year.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> My original point stands. Your "no extra skin off their nose" comment was BS. And so is your claim that the employer contribution to FICA is insignificant.
> 
> Uber grossed more than $100 billion last year. If drivers received even a third of that total we're talking $30 billion. 7.65% of $30 billion = $2.3 billion just for FICA. You consider $2.3 billion "insignificant"?
> 
> Add to that the other cost savings I listed in my previous post and we're talking many BILLIONS of dollars Uber is saving per year by exploiting their drivers.


$2.3 billion isn't insignificant by itself, no. But that's 2.3% of $100 billion. And you're skipping the part where the usual MO is to pay out $27.7 billion + $2.3 billion to arrive at the same number. It's not costs or savings in a vacuum.

On the one hand, you state they're willing to dip into the drivers' pile to up their profit at whatever expense to the drivers. On the other hand, you insist they wouldn't dip into the drivers' pile to pay taxes due so it would have to be a direct expense. And your lack of consistency in Uber being willing to dip into the drivers' pile makes me FOS?  C'mon man.

It's not, by itself, the 2.3% they could get back by the same methods they're using everywhere else, which is all I said and you seem to be agreeing with by repeatedly bringing all these other expenses into the conversation. You want to talk about the whole world of expenses they're saving with the same methods, fine. But that's not what I was talking about and you know it. You're just being insulting and high maintenance so there's a "winner" in this when there's nothing to win.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Vagabond1 said:


> But that's 2.3% of $100 billion.


$2.3 billion out of $100 billion is still $2.3 billion, which is a LOT of money.

The zillions of CEOs, execs, economists, and others who have stated repeatedly that employee benefits are costing employers a fortune and slash massive amounts of money from bottom lines are either wrong or lying according to you. 

They have to be wrong because the employees themselves are paying for their benefits via reduced wages according to you. Your $27.7 + $2.3 illustration is an example of that claim.



Vagabond1 said:


> On the one hand, you state they're willing to dip into the drivers' pile to up their profit. On the other hand, you insist they wouldn't dip into the drivers' pile to pay taxes due.


They most definitely dip into the drivers' pile. That's not even debatable. The second sentence is strawman. I never even hinted at such a thing. Of course they'd try to minimize their costs by dumping the costs of benefits onto the employees but there's limits to that. One of those limits is minimum wage. 

It's the Ayn Rand followers and other reactionaries who try to have it both ways. On one hand they've always been vigorously opposed to Comp, FICA, unemployment, etc. They claim it hurts the economy and kills jobs. Then on the other hand they try to minimize the benefits employees receive by claiming that the employees are paying for their benefits with lower wages. 

Uber themselves disagrees with your assertions. The extreme vigor they've used to fight employee status speaks volumes.


----------



## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> $2.3 billion out of $100 billion is still $2.3 billion, which is a LOT of money.
> 
> The zillions of CEOs, execs, economists, and others who have stated repeatedly that employee benefits are costing employers a fortune and slash massive amounts of money from bottom lines are either wrong or lying according to you.
> 
> ...


Uf. Dog with a bone. One poppyseed into an opium empire.

Fine. The entire thing is all a sham solely to avoid payroll taxes, nothing else.

If that doesn't make you happy, then nothing will because disagreeing with that was my only original point.

Got a poker game tonight so I'm out. Have a good night.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Judge and Jury said:


> LOL.
> 
> That first sentence was pretty funny.
> 
> ...


lets do some comparisons here.

one driver can’t make $15 an hour in his market doing Uber/Lyft. This is before deducting out $10 in costs, he’s been in the industry since 2010. So he knows what his costs are. The only regulation is that no one is allowed to regulate Uber. (This isn’t even a joke)



Driver number 2 is in a regulated market paying a cab company for a rentals taxi. The city sets the max rate that the cab company can charge him for the car. The city also sets the rates on cab fares.
Driver number 2 makes $450 per 1 and 1/2 days of working as Ic for the cab company. After expenses he walks home with $230+.

Which driver do you think I am?


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Vagabond1 said:


> Fine. The entire thing is all a sham solely to avoid payroll taxes, nothing else.


Your strawman gets bigger with each post. I never came close to making that claim.

This debate has run its course.


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## Vagabond1 (9 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> Your strawman gets bigger with each post. I never came close to making that claim.
> 
> This debate has run its course.


No, you didn't. You just came in to argue with me for telling someone else that wasn't true.

Good lord. You've gone so far down your own rabbit hole you don't even remember where it started despite repeated reminders that was all I responded to and the only point I made.


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## Ritter (Jan 2, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> The status quo shouldn't be allowed to continue for another day. The govt needs to step in and regulate the gig economy or declare gig workers are employees.


And the day they do that will be the day I quit.

I don't do nametags...


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## ZippityDoDa (9 mo ago)

Nats121 said:


> That statement is false. There are millions of employees who use their own vehicles. Dominos pizza drivers are just one example of many.



Yeah, but that’s kind of like Uber driving as they’re getting good tips (supposedly) to pay for their mileage.


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## ZippityDoDa (9 mo ago)

Ritter said:


> And the day they do that will be the day I quit.
> 
> I don't do nametags...


Yeah, that’s another pull to it too, isn’t it. As an IC there’s no real dress code, hourly schedule, name tags, instructions on how to drive (except to be legal), and you can even choose to cancel after a passenger is in the car. Some pluses LOL


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

ZippityDoDa said:


> Yeah, that’s another pull to it too, isn’t it.
> you can even choose to cancel after a passenger is in the car. Some pluses LOL


That’s interesting
I do it on longer trips as no pay to return
I’m hearing about being fired for canceling
As an independent contractor they should not be able to if you find you have a loser
Seems that would be a good lawsuit


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

wallae said:


> That’s interesting
> I do it on longer trips as no pay to return
> I’m hearing about being fired for canceling
> As an independent contractor they should not be able to if you find you have a loser
> Seems that would be a good lawsuit


How so? Any general contractor can stop doing business with a sub at any time.


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## ZippityDoDa (9 mo ago)

wallae said:


> That’s interesting
> I do it on longer trips as no pay to return
> I’m hearing about being fired for canceling
> As an independent contractor they should not be able to if you find you have a loser
> Seems that would be a good lawsuit



I’ve been driving a long time so “maybe” due to my rating of typically 4.6 in my area (I’m nice but never will kiss b..tts) and thousands of rides I’m a money maker for them. I only cancel if it’s a for sure loss of long trip wrong direction. OR if they’re a definite problem by trying to get me to do something illegal (too many people, no car seat) or being a definite backseat driver with a bad attitude (maybe 3x ever) or they’re maybe dangerous by being suggestive (drunk guys - maybe 5x ever). Oh, and those fully drunk can’t walk straight to the car people (vomit risk, therefore rider behavior) - of course those don’t even remember what happened. No one’s ever vomited in my car (have let them do that outside as they are aware first) but there’s no need to pick up someone very sick. That’s their problem (they shouldn’t drink so much - I didn’t sign up to be their personal nurse).


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

SuzeCB said:


> How so? Any general contractor can stop doing business with a sub at any time.


I understood that Uber settle the lawsuit with California agreeing not to fire people for refusing unprofitable trips
California said that made you an employee
I could be wrong but that’s what I remember


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## ZippityDoDa (9 mo ago)

wallae said:


> I understood that Uber settle the lawsuit with California agreeing not to fire people for refusing unprofitable trips
> California said that made you an employee
> I could be wrong but that’s what I remember



Yeah, I can’t see why they would remove you from the platform for not taking a money losing trip. They can’t “fire” you, as you are not an employee. 

As an independent contractor each ride is a separate contract and you can refuse the contracts you don’t agree to. If you are found to turn down too many contracts it makes it bad customer service against Uber (from the public). Therefore Uber, at some point, would take a contractor off the platform that hurts the picture of assumed customer service by the public that are requesting an Uber ride.

By the way, whenever someone asks me that same stupid question: “how do you like being an Uber driver?”, I always respond I’m not an Uber driver, I’m an independent driver using the Uber app to find riders (just like they’re not calling themselves “Uber riders”)

Every time I hear that question, they may as well be dragging their fingernails across a chalkboard!


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

wallae said:


> I understood that Uber settle the lawsuit with California agreeing not to fire people for refusing unprofitable trips
> California said that made you an employee
> I could be wrong but that’s what I remember


Are you sure that was actually part of the settlement, or was it something aside from that -- like they did when they stopped deactivating for low acceptance rates?

BTW, they still look at acceptance rates to see if they will reactivate you after deactivation for something else, should you appeal the deactivation. At the end of the day, they are a technology that mines data, and if youbthink ANY of it gets deleted, you must have unexpectedly and suddenly traveled here from the 1020's.


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## Noentry (11 mo ago)

AB5 said:


> Uber drivers are the core of there business which makes drivers employees. Just because you want to hide from the IRS, students loans and child support does not change this. How many of you so could IC get SSI VA benefits Food stamps and don't report the earnings? Wake you are a employee of Uber.


Ask the politicians who took Uber’s vast lobbying funds to change the law to suit Uber’s greedy business model.
All available to see in the Uber file’s


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## Noentry (11 mo ago)

ZippityDoDa said:


> Yeah, I can’t see why they would remove you from the platform for not taking a money losing trip. They can’t “fire” you, as you are not an employee.
> 
> As an independent contractor each ride is a separate contract and you can refuse the contracts you don’t agree to. If you are found to turn down too many contracts it makes it bad customer service against Uber (from the public). Therefore Uber, at some point, would take a contractor off the platform that hurts the picture of assumed customer service by the public that are requesting an Uber ride.
> 
> ...


A truly self employed individual sets his or her own prices.
Just because of the flexibility, It does not change the rules.
Uber cannot make profit by reinventing the Taxi.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Noentry said:


> A truly self employed individual sets his or her own prices.
> Just because of the flexibility, It does not change the rules.
> Uber cannot make profit by reinventing the Taxi.


And you can certainly set your own prices! It's just that you can't do that on trips for Uber. Or Lyft.

Cab companies can set their own prices, too... so long as they are in line with local regulations, anyway.

Everyone answers to someone, business owners being a group that answer to the most someones.


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## ZippityDoDa (9 mo ago)

SuzeCB said:


> And you can certainly set your own prices! It's just that you can't do that on trips for Uber. Or Lyft.
> 
> Cab companies can set their own prices, too... so long as they are in line with local regulations, anyway.
> 
> Everyone answers to someone, business owners being a group that answer to the most someones.


You’re basically setting your own prices as a self-employed driver using the app(too). If you don’t want that job at the price offered (for instance no surges) don’t do it, period.

If you were self employed anywhere else, same thing; you choose whether you do the job or not. You might negotiate, but the market pays what they’re agreeable to.

That pay you get (left over from ride) from Uber is the privilege you get for using their app. Tough love. Tough luck.

you always have the freedom to create your own driving (or any other) app.


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## Buckiemohawk (Jun 23, 2015)

Ive said again and again. You dont want to be employee. You dont want the control of app to tell you were to go. Drivers need common sense regulations on pay and actual pay per mile that reflects todays prices with increases every year due to inflation. FEDERAL RIDESHARE TRANSPERANCY AND SAFETY ACT or FRTSA for short solves these problem. it stops people from driving without rideshare policies on insurance and its says drivers are owed 80 of every fare unless out of a que line with fees such as airports. It also says the min fare for under a mile and half is 7.50. For cancellation is 5 dollars all giving to drivers. Also it gives mileage and gas charge on long rides. It stops scammers and bad customers as well


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

Buckiemohawk said:


> FEDERAL RIDESHARE TRANSPERANCY AND SAFETY ACT or FRTSA for short solves these problem. it stops people from driving without rideshare policies on insurance and its says drivers are owed 80 of every fare unless out of a que line with fees such as airports. It also says the min fare for under a mile and half is 7.50. For cancellation is 5 dollars all giving to drivers. Also it gives mileage and gas charge on long rides. It stops scammers and bad customers as well


I'm not trying to be a dick here but where is the "FEDERAL RIDESHARE TRANSPERANCY AND SAFETY ACT" being proposed? 

I did a Google search and found nothing. 

Is this your idea or is it a realistic proposal?


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## Buckiemohawk (Jun 23, 2015)

New2This said:


> I'm not trying to be a dick here but where is the "FEDERAL RIDESHARE TRANSPERANCY AND SAFETY ACT" being proposed?
> 
> I did a Google search and found nothing.
> 
> Is this your idea or is it a realistic proposal?


Its a Realistic Proposal and my idea for a bill. I need drivers to spread the word that we want FRTSA


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## ubergrind (May 23, 2017)

This thread is still going ? Just raise the rates, lower the cut, let drivers be 1099 …. This is the only job in history that the pay has gone down while the expenses have gone up.


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## Noentry (11 mo ago)

ZippityDoDa said:


> You’re basically setting your own prices as a self-employed driver using the app(too). If you don’t want that job at the price offered (for instance no surges) don’t do it, period.
> 
> If you were self employed anywhere else, same thing; you choose whether you do the job or not. You might negotiate, but the market pays what they’re agreeable to.
> 
> ...


Any scrupulously employee will do everything in its power to limit its responsibilities. Uber are masters of illusion.
Just take time to read the Uber files released world wide and then tell me if you are a believer.
If you decide you still favour Uber you are either selfish or ill informed.


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## Donatello (6 mo ago)

pwnzor said:


> This is wrong on so many levels.
> 
> Employees don't drive their own cars around and pay for their own gas. Employees drive the company car and have a fuel card.
> 
> The government is wrong, once again. Just trying to destroy business at it's most fundamental level by obscuring the line between what's real and what isn't.


Funny huh? they managed to make employees do that, how evil can they be?

Best reclassify ASAP and fix that issue.


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## pwnzor (Jun 27, 2017)

Donatello said:


> they managed to make employees do that, how evil can they be?


No, they didn't. 

No Uber driver is an employee.


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## Donatello (6 mo ago)

pwnzor said:


> No, they didn't.
> 
> No Uber driver is an employee.


Says who? Uber?


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## pwnzor (Jun 27, 2017)

Donatello said:


> Says who? Uber?


Says the definition of the word "employee" - you don't earn wages or a salary. You are paid a FEE. You're a service provider, ie: a contractor. 

em·ploy·ee
/emˈploiē,emˌploiˈē/
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf...2ahUKEwinwZLG6c75AhX6QzABHeZ4B3wQ3eEDegQIDRAK
_noun_

a person employed for wages or salary, especially at nonexecutive level.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

pwnzor said:


> Says the definition of the word "employee" - you don't earn wages or a salary. You are paid a FEE. You're a service provider, ie: a contractor.
> 
> em·ploy·ee
> /emˈploiē,emˌploiˈē/
> ...


Ha Ha!

What is the name of your business?

Will a Google search provide information?

Are you hiring?

Or contracting for driver's services?

What are your vehicle requirements?

Will my Sherman qualify?


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## Donatello (6 mo ago)

pwnzor said:


> Says the definition of the word "employee" - you don't earn wages or a salary. You are paid a FEE. You're a service provider, ie: a contractor.
> 
> em·ploy·ee
> /emˈploiē,emˌploiˈē/
> ...


I am a contractor? since when does Uber pass the dynamex test?

So if I call you an idiot, that makes it so? Shouldn't you - by some merit - fit the description?


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