# Surge: Flat rate or multiplier?



## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

Two consecutive rides, similar mileage and time. Both were listed as flat rate surge. First was $6.75, as paid. Second was similar flat rate, or maybe $7.50. But the surge payout of $20.51 was obviously higher than the flat rate.

This kind of thing happens most nights. I never know if I'll get flat rate or what appears to be the old multiplier-type payout. Anyone else run into this? What gives? And is there any way to tell which payout it will be?


----------



## BOScusdriver (Jan 11, 2017)

Terrapin Bound said:


> Two consecutive rides, similar mileage and time. Both were listed as flat rate surge. First was $6.75, as paid. Second was similar flat rate, or maybe $7.50. But the surge payout of $20.51 was obviously higher than the flat rate.
> 
> This kind of thing happens most nights. I never know if I'll get flat rate or what appears to be the old multiplier-type payout. Anyone else run into this? What gives? And is there any way to tell which payout it will be?
> 
> View attachment 662674


I had just one request last weekend that came in as a 1.7x instead of flat rate. Not sure why as I'm in Boston. The multiplier is usually better as I recall. Especially for long rides.


----------



## BOScusdriver (Jan 11, 2017)




----------



## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

I'


BOScusdriver said:


> I had just one request last weekend that came in as a 1.7x instead of flat rate. Not sure why as I'm in Boston. The multiplier is usually better as I recall. Especially for long rides.


I've had a few recently show up as multipliers. I always assume it's a trap. 
I always think everything could be a trap, which is why I'm still alive.

The confusion is when a flat rate turns into a multiplier rate on payout. It's never less than the flat rate shown when I accept the ride, so I'm not complaining, just trying to understand.


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

In my experience, if you have sticky surge and the PAX is not paying surge you get the same dollar amount you expected. If the PAX is in a surge area when they request, and they pay 2x, 3x, 4x, or whatever, and the result is Uber getting what, in their opinion, is too high of a share of the fare, they add to your surge payment to make it "fair", in their eyes.

I've never been able to figure out what percentage they think is fair, when my surge is adjusted the end result is inconsistent from ride to ride. Seems like they just give extra "if they feel like it". I'm sure there's some kind of formula but i have no idea what it is.


----------



## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

Ted Fink said:


> In my experience, if you have sticky surge and the PAX is not paying surge you get the same dollar amount you expected. If the PAX is in a surge area when they request, and they pay 2x, 3x, 4x, or whatever, and the result is Uber getting what, in their opinion, is too high of a share of the fare, they add to your surge payment to make it "fair", in their eyes.
> 
> I've never been able to figure out what percentage they think is fair, when my surge is adjusted the end result is inconsistent from ride to ride. Seems like they just give extra "if they feel like it". I'm sure there's some kind of formula but i have no idea what it is.


I reckon that's as reasonable an explanation as any.
Maybe I should leave the pax app open on my second device, get a better look at the big picture.
See if there's a correlation between pax surge rates and when Uber "feels like" paying more.


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Terrapin Bound said:


> See if there's a correlation between pax surge rates and when Uber "feels like" paying more.


There definitely is, I just can't pin it down to a formula.

But, if the pax pays high surge and you have a dollar amount of sticky surge, it gets increased. #BlackBoxPayFormulas


----------



## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Ted Fink said:


> In my experience, if you have sticky surge and the PAX is not paying surge you get the same dollar amount you expected. If the PAX is in a surge area when they request, and they pay 2x, 3x, 4x, or whatever, and the result is Uber getting what, in their opinion, is too high of a share of the fare, they add to your surge payment to make it "fair", in their eyes.
> 
> I've never been able to figure out what percentage they think is fair, when my surge is adjusted the end result is inconsistent from ride to ride. Seems like they just give extra "if they feel like it". I'm sure there's some kind of formula but i have no idea what it is.


That was exactly what was going on with sticky surge and rate card trips. That all changed in my area when they switched to the fixed rate fare. Now we get a ping with a specific total, you have to do some quick mental figuring to determine if the pay is worth it. The funny thing is that even with a given surge, say $3, the fares will still vary, one might pay $1 a mile + the $3 surge, while another might pay $2 a mile plus the $3 surge. (talking about relatively short trips). I did however get a 5.0 surge multiplier on a ping last weekend, and it paid out. $140 for 40 minutes of driving (pax paid $200). Reminded me of the good old days!


----------



## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

Disgusted Driver said:


> That all changed in my area when they switched to the fixed rate fare.


That hasn't hit my area yet. I warned Uber, I will stop driving if the attempt such shenanigans. Clearly it had an effect.

Seriously though, it seems like a money loser, though I don't know quite how it works. Something about a set fare, typically lower, and sucks to be you if there's a traffic jam. The only advantage is seeing the destination maybe? Don't know, hoping I won't have to find out.


----------



## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

You guys have it wrong.. 1st off off by the time you get a sticky surge that's what you're guaranteed to earn. If for some reason the passenger is paying a really high premium the reason why your adjustment is higher it's because they share the profit with you.. It still ends up being 50-50 if you're lucky 60-40.
It's called back end surge. Lyft won't give it to you


----------



## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Terrapin Bound said:


> That hasn't hit my area yet. I warned Uber, I will stop driving if the attempt such shenanigans. Clearly it had an effect.
> 
> Seriously though, it seems like a money loser, though I don't know quite how it works. Something about a set fare, typically lower, and sucks to be you if there's a traffic jam. The only advantage is seeing the destination maybe? Don't know, hoping I won't have to find out.


I thought the same thing but it's actually worked out very well for me (which can change at any moment). What happens is that generally short rides pay a little more and long rides pay a little lower than they would have with time and mileage. My experience if you hit a jam or detour is that they will adjust it a little higher to compensate. It works really well if you follow the following rules: There needs to be a quest, only take short trips, work the promotions (quest, CTB, surge) and only drive when it's busy so you can get stacked pings. A stacked ping gives you a second chance on a CTB if you don't like the current one you can change the destination slightly i the app as you drop off the current pax to lose the stacked ping and try again.
I'm doing less mileage as a result and grossing $40 + on Friday and Saturday nights. If there are no promos then all bets are off, it's hard to see enough consistent surge to make it worth it in my area. I can't tell you how many times it's saved me from a long trip to nowhere at base rates 20 minutes before the bars close and all hell breaks loose.


----------



## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

bobby747 said:


> You guys have it wrong.. 1st off off by the time you get a sticky surge that's what you're guaranteed to earn. If for some reason the passenger is paying a really high premium the reason why your adjustment is higher it's because they share the profit with you.. It still ends up being 50-50 if you're lucky 60-40.
> It's called back end surge. Lyft won't give it to you


That sounds about right. When I have a second driver app open to keep an eye on the heat map, I'll see the rates go up while I'm locked in to a $6 surge. I often cancel that $6 surge when I'm on the way to it and I see the map's gone up to $18 or so, knowing I'll get a ping at the higher rate soon enough. If your logic holds, I'd be getting the late-breaking surge anyways. 

Next time I'm out I'll experiment with that premise; could help keep my cancellation rate down. Also would help $6 Sally keep the ride she's booked even though $18 Eddie has come along in the meantime.


----------



## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

Disgusted Driver said:


> It works really well if you follow the following rules: There needs to be a quest, only take short trips, work the promotions (quest, CTB, surge) and only drive when it's busy so you can get stacked pings.


I haven't had a promo offer since the first one that got me driving again, sometime last fall. 

During the closing hours I work, knowing the destination during the surge is essential. That's why I text and ask before pickup, and why my cancellation rate hovers around 30%. Probably get DA'd for it one day, but damned if I'm gonna take a final destination 40 miles further away from home at 2:30am.

It's a safety thing, see. Not destination discrimination


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Disgusted Driver said:


> I thought the same thing but it's actually worked out very well for me (which can change at any moment). What happens is that generally short rides pay a little more and long rides pay a little lower than they would have with time and mileage. My experience if you hit a jam or detour is that they will adjust it a little higher to compensate. It works really well if you follow the following rules: There needs to be a quest, only take short trips, work the promotions (quest, CTB, surge) and only drive when it's busy so you can get stacked pings. A stacked ping gives you a second chance on a CTB if you don't like the current one you can change the destination slightly i the app as you drop off the current pax to lose the stacked ping and try again.
> I'm doing less mileage as a result and grossing $40 + on Friday and Saturday nights. If there are no promos then all bets are off, it's hard to see enough consistent surge to make it worth it in my area. I can't tell you how many times it's saved me from a long trip to nowhere at base rates 20 minutes before the bars close and all hell breaks loose.


How does the driver change the destination, exactly. I’ve never figured this out in 12000 trips


----------



## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

nm


----------



## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Ted Fink said:


> How does the driver change the destination, exactly. I’ve never figured this out in 12000 trips


On Uber you just tap the destination and click on the pencil to change it. Sometimes it's at the bottom of the list of turn by turn directions. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll do a screen cap.


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Disgusted Driver said:


> On Uber you just tap the destination and click on the pencil to change it. Sometimes it's at the bottom of the list of turn by turn directions. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll do a screen cap.


I've tried to find it and can't, please do share screen shots . Thanks!


----------



## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Terrapin Bound said:


> This kind of thing happens most nights. I never know if I'll get flat rate or what appears to be the old multiplier-type payout. Anyone else run into this? What gives? And is there any way to tell which payout it will be?


You get the flat amount when you get a request outside of the actual surging area. 

If your pax is paying a actuql surged rate, and the trip is more than a few miles, you'll get an increased surge. 

I use the rider app to see if they are paying a surged rate, if they are and it's more than a few mile trip, 90% of the time I get additional surge. 

Also, there's usually a lag between the rider and driver app. They start paying more 5-8 minutes before a surge shows on our app. And goes down while we still get the sticky surge. The key is to get requests while they are paying a higher surge. 

I


----------



## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Ted Fink said:


> I've tried to find it and can't, please do share screen shots . Thanks!


I won't be driving till Friday so I'll post some shots then if nobody does before then.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Terrapin Bound said:


> It's a safety thing, see. Not destination discrimination


Drivers who don't commit "destination discrimination" are cheating themselves.

Accepting work offers without pertinent info is dumb, period


----------



## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Terrapin Bound said:


> Two consecutive rides, similar mileage and time. Both were listed as flat rate surge. First was $6.75, as paid. Second was similar flat rate, or maybe $7.50. But the surge payout of $20.51 was obviously higher than the flat rate.
> 
> This kind of thing happens most nights. I never know if I'll get flat rate or what appears to be the old multiplier-type payout. Anyone else run into this? What gives? And is there any way to tell which payout it will be?
> 
> View attachment 662674


You are getting 1/2 of what they pay 
You can use the rider app to get an idea but it’s tough on the road.
I use the rider app for where I sit and pickup to a fixed place about 7 miles 20 minutes in our traffic. 30 with pickup Base is 11 dollars 🤣 and I get 5.5
I’m not going anywhere that.
When the rate hits 30 I go online and start to accept


----------



## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Boca Ratman said:


> You get the flat amount when you get a request outside of the actual surging area.
> 
> If your pax is paying a actuql surged rate, and the trip is more than a few miles, you'll get an increased surge.
> 
> ...


Exactly (you taught me)
Only now our shown red surge and money on the map is lagging horrible
When it shows no money, no red the customer is paying huge. $40 for a 30 minute ride. 20 to me
By the time I show +7 red they are only paying 13 (6 to me) for the same ride
It’s making it much tougher as when I accept a ride when the customer pays 40 on the above ride I don’t know if I’m getting 6 or 20. I am getting 50-50
Sometimes screwed sometimes great
I’m being more careful but it’s still tough. I’m also canceling if I get a 2 hour ride and not sure what I’m making. I refuse to go 2 hours (4 round trip) for 40 dollars plus 7 surge


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Disgusted Driver said:


> I won't be driving till Friday so I'll post some shots then if nobody does before then.


@Disgusted Driver can you post a screenshot? I would really like to learn how to do this.


----------



## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Ted Fink said:


> @Disgusted Driver can you post a screenshot? I would really like to learn how to do this.


Here goes:









Click on "Make a left Turn" box.









Then click on the pencil next to the last step by step direction. Enter a new address (even 2 numbers away is good enough). Any stacked ping you have will go away.


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Thanks!!


----------



## UberMagnumRed (Jul 25, 2015)

Terrapin Bound said:


> That sounds about right. When I have a second driver app open to keep an eye on the heat map, I'll see the rates go up while I'm locked in to a $6 surge. I often cancel that $6 surge when I'm on the way to it and I see the map's gone up to $18 or so, knowing I'll get a ping at the higher rate soon enough. If your logic holds, I'd be getting the late-breaking surge anyways.
> I’m curious how are you opening a second copy of the driver app?
> 
> Next time I'm out I'll experiment with that premise; could help keep my cancellation rate down. Also would help $6 Sally keep the ride she's booked even though $18 Eddie has come along in the meantime.


----------



## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

UberMagnumRed said:


> I’m curious how are you opening a second copy of the driver app?


One on my tablet, one on my phone...app can be open on multiple devices, only one at a time can be online.

Tablet is primary, the larger display helps me scrutinize pings more quickly. Phone is for heat map and pleasant conversations with Uber support.


----------



## JessSan747 (7 mo ago)

BOScusdriver said:


> I had just one request last weekend that came in as a 1.7x instead of flat rate. Not sure why as I'm in Boston. The multiplier is usually better as I recall. Especially for long rides.


Does this have to do with the BOOST? I don't understand it,should I always choose the Boost rate?


----------



## JessSan747 (7 mo ago)

Terrapin Bound said:


> One on my tablet, one on my phone...app can be open on multiple devices, only one at a time can be online.
> 
> Tablet is primary, the larger display helps me scrutinize pings more quickly. Phone is for heat map and pleasant conversations with Uber support.


What Uber support?? Lol..they're useless


----------



## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

JessSan747 said:


> What Uber support?? Lol..they're useless


You must be doing it wrong. I always reach helpful young ladies with alluring voices, who completely understand my issue on the first attempt because English is their first language.


----------



## MissAnne (Aug 9, 2017)

This has happened to me also, one trip from Park city to the airport, came up as an $11 surge, so I grabbed it. When the trip was complete I noticed the surge payout was over $59 !! And they tipped me almost $33 👍 sometimes Uber is fair, not often though


----------



## Terrapin Bound (Mar 4, 2019)

MissAnne said:


> This has happened to me also, one trip from Park city to the airport, came up as an $11 surge, so I grabbed it. When the trip was complete I noticed the surge payout was over $59 !! And they tipped me almost $33 👍 sometimes Uber is fair, not often though


There's apparently a method to the madness, some here have tried to explain it, but I was told there'd be no math and I've stopped trying to figure it out on the fly. Basically, if I grab an $11 surge and it turns out to be $28 afterwards, that's a nice bonus. If just $11, well then I got what I signed up for.

But I'm still reluctant to pick up an $8 surge when I notice it's at $18 by the time I arrive. Someone here said I'd still get that $18 even though I accepted the $8, but I haven't put it to the test. I feel a little bad cancelling the $8 to trawl for the $18, but that $18 always comes along quickly. And pax do the same thing to us, so I reckon it all evens out within the all-important Uber community.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

wallae said:


> It’s making it much tougher as when I accept a ride when the customer pays 40 on the above ride I don’t know if I’m getting 6 or 20. I am getting 50-50


Why focus on what rider/customer pays to Uber? It's entirely irrelevant. Smart drivers focus *only* on what they're being paid from Uber.


----------



## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Exactly wrong


----------



## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

And by that I mean in my town right now


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

wallae said:


> Exactly wrong


I remain unswayed. You'll need to make a case for why it matters if you want a shot at swaying me.

Here's my side: Just a few years ago, I had at least three different riders tell me on trip that they were paying Uber like $3-$5 each for these 4-6 mile rides. These were VIP status customers who presumably used Uber like 30+ times monthly. Uber was paying me $5-$8 for those trips. I wouldn't split *those* payments with Uber.

Uber subsidizes on *both* sides to make it even work.


----------



## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

wallae said:


> And by that I mean in my town right now





Heisenburger said:


> I remain unswayed. You'll need to make a case for why it matters if you want a shot at swaying me.
> 
> Here's my side: Just a few years ago, I had at least three different riders tell me on trip that they were paying Uber like $3-$5 each for these 4-6 mile rides. These were VIP status customers who presumably used Uber like 30+ times monthly. Uber was paying me $5-$8 for those trips. I wouldn't split *those* payments with Uber.
> 
> Uber subsidizes on *both* sides to make it even work.





Heisenburger said:


> I remain unswayed. You'll need to make a case for why it matters if you want a shot at swaying me.
> 
> Here's my side: Just a few years ago, I had at least three different riders tell me on trip that they were paying Uber like $3-$5 each for these 4-6 mile rides. These were VIP status customers who presumably used Uber like 30+ times monthly. Uber was paying me $5-$8 for those trips. I wouldn't split *those* payments with Uber.
> 
> Uber subsidizes on *both* sides to make it even work.





Heisenburger said:


> I remain unswayed. You'll need to make a case for why it matters if you want a shot at swaying me.
> 
> Here's my side: Just a few years ago, I had at least three different riders tell me on trip that they were paying Uber like $3-$5 each for these 4-6 mile rides. These were VIP status customers who presumably used Uber like 30+ times monthly. Uber was paying me $5-$8 for those trips. I wouldn't split *those* payments with Uber.
> 
> Uber subsidizes on *both* sides to make it even work.


----------



## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

I’m happy with what I do here
And perhaps you can do more in less time but miles count too
As does the area and roads
We have slow slow roads
A ton of 8 mile 35 minute trips that require a 35 minute trip back for 12 
That I don’t take
My friend in Austin can take stuff I can’t cause he’s on a highway doing 70 while I’m averaging 30 mph
There is no money to be made taking crap trips here


----------



## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> I remain unswayed. You'll need to make a case for why it matters if you want a shot at swaying me.
> 
> Here's my side: Just a few years ago, I had at least three different riders tell me on trip that they were paying Uber like $3-$5 each for these 4-6 mile rides. These were VIP status customers who presumably used Uber like 30+ times monthly. Uber was paying me $5-$8 for those trips. I wouldn't split *those* payments with Uber.
> 
> Uber subsidizes on *both* sides to make it even work.


Feel free to post your last 2 weeks


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

wallae said:


> Feel free to post your last 2 weeks


I'm under the impression that you were disagreeing with this:



> Why focus on what rider/customer pays to Uber? It's entirely irrelevant. Smart drivers focus only on what they're being paid from Uber.


But then you showed screenshots of relatively few trips per hour. I don't understand how they relate.


----------



## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> I'm under the impression that you were disagreeing with this:
> 
> 
> 
> But then you showed screenshots of relatively few trips per hour. I don't understand how they relate.


I just showed total pay for thx last 2 
weeks 
I have no interest in doing 4 dollar rides


----------

