# Pay analysis for my first 25 Uber pax.



## InertUber (Jul 18, 2016)

So after my first 25 pax on Uber, it's not looking good. These numbers are fudged a bit so the Uber police will have a harder time figuring out who I am, but I adjusted them all in Uber's favor. Please say so if you think these calculations are incorrect. I emailed support explaining I'm driving a mini-van with 7 seatbelts, so maybe I'd make more if I was getting UberXL pings. At least 3 of these first 25 rides were 5+ pax. Seems I should have been paid more. The reply to my email was "Most drivers register as UberX." lol Thanks.

$300 gross payments from Uber for my first 25 rides. $18 of that was reimbursement for airport pickup fees, So $282 gross.

16 hours on the road (gone from home, including waiting time, and whether I had a pax or not). This is a conservative estimate.

300 miles driven while gone from home driving Uber. All miles including going to pick pax. Let's say it cost me $40 in gas. This is a conservative estimate.

Let's say my vehicle costs $.35/mile in insurance and maintenance etc. when it probably costs more.

My rating is 4.86.

$282

-$40 gas

-$105 vehicle costs

-$30 Uber vehicle inspection

=$107 ($6.29/hr)

How much does the $250 sign-up bonus (which there is no record of anywhere on my profile, and I have not been paid) improves my hourly rate?

$357 ($22.31/hr)

Now let's say I only pay 25% of that in taxes.

$268 ($16.75/hr after taxes)

I forget what the mileage tax deduction is, but let's say it's $.58/mi. That's $174.

So net $442 ($27.62/hr with mileage tax deduction)

Without the $250 signup bonus?

$107 + $174 (mileage deduction) = $285 ($17.81/hr)

*If any of you didn't notice, without the $250 signup bonus, YOU, as a taxpayer are paying me more than UBER does!* It's like government subsidizing getting the drunks home safe! lol

A $1000 airport fine, $180 traffic ticket, or $1000 deductable accident would really make these numbers a lot worse in Uber's favor, wouldn't they?

I feel like a fool for even trying this.

Actually, I may have noticed a market Uber hasn't "tapped" yet. I could put a brass pole in my van, have a stripper ride around with me, and call it "UberXXX". The stripper could badger the pax to buy her a drink @ $9 per Coca Cola. I guess Uber may not want to be paying all the cleaning bills for those kind of customer "accidents".

Actually, we might make more money if the first pax each shift just threw up in our vehicle. Acquire the tools to clean it yourself after each shift and collect the fee. Wouldn't that be great? ; )

*So unless they want to pay me a $250 bonus for every 25 rides, I'm thinking this may be the time to get out.* What do you think? Honestly. Not just "yeah quit man" to get another competitor off the road. : )

I really hope they pay me the $250 signup bonus.


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## InertUber (Jul 18, 2016)

So was that OP too long or does everyone that reads it just think I should be happy about what I made for those first 25 rides? No opinions? Wow


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## the rebel (Jun 12, 2016)

You posted all that like you are surprised. There are posts throughout this board saying it is hard to make minimum wage as a net income once you figure out your true costs, the problem is that a few in markets like San Fransisco and NYC make good money and people buy into their posts ignoring the rest of us, then they are surprised when they figure out we are not all crazy, in most markets it is damn hard to make much more than minimum wage, I personally make $9.50 an hour after expenses, and I was a cabbie for over a year a few years ago and know the tricks to stay efficient and busy.


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## gofry (Oct 20, 2015)

Your basic impression is correct, Uber is not very profitable but the bad news is that you made even less than you think.

The mileage deduction simply lowers the gross income you pay income tax on, it is not a "credit." You would subtract the $174 mileage expense from the $357, then pay your income tax based on that. Also, you would need to take out another 15% self-employment tax on top of your 25% income tax.

So, without the sign-up bonus, you would have made $109, divided by 16 hours, that leaves you with $6.86 per hour.


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## InertUber (Jul 18, 2016)

I wasn't necessarily surprised. I guess I am one of those thousands of people who wanted to find out for themselves, in their own market. Like I said, with the signup bonuses from Lyft and Uber, I made a little, but it's probably the best time to get out. I had some decent shifts driving Lyft when I got some prime time Plus rides, but Uber just gives me one worthless trip after another. UberX out in the suburbs. Short rides with no surge. I thought running both apps might keep me busier, but Uber won't even give me XL. They say I need to ask for a fare adjustment if I get over 4 pax. Yeah right!

No, I was basically just posting my example of how the ones saying it's not sustainable are telling the truth.


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## InertUber (Jul 18, 2016)

Yep. The numbers I posted all lean towards making Uber look the best they can, and even with that, they look terrible.



gofry said:


> Your basic impression is correct, Uber is not very profitable but the bad news is that you made even less than you think.
> 
> The mileage deduction simply lowers the gross income you pay income tax on, it is not a "credit." You would subtract the $174 mileage expense from the $357, then pay your income tax based on that. Also, you would need to take out another 15% self-employment tax on top of your 25% income tax.
> 
> So, without the sign-up bonus, you would have made $109, divided by 16 hours, that leaves you with $6.86 per hour.


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## shiftydrake (Dec 12, 2015)

Interesting it actually took you 25 trips to figure it out I'm surprised


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## gofry (Oct 20, 2015)

I give him credit for taking the time to do the math. Many keep their head in the sand.


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

InertUber said:


> I wasn't necessarily surprised. I guess I am one of those thousands of people who wanted to find out for themselves, in their own market. Like I said, with the signup bonuses from Lyft and Uber, I made a little, but it's probably the best time to get out. I had some decent shifts driving Lyft when I got some prime time Plus rides, but Uber just gives me one worthless trip after another. UberX out in the suburbs. Short rides with no surge. I thought running both apps might keep me busier, but Uber won't even give me XL. They say I need to ask for a fare adjustment if I get over 4 pax. Yeah right!
> 
> No, I was basically just posting my example of how the ones saying it's not sustainable are telling the truth.


1. If you want to discuss being signed up for another class of rides other than UberX, it's best to meet Uber in person at one of their Driver Service Centers. I know I am fortunate to have one nearby. If visiting a center is impossible, try again emailing the CSRs (customer service representatives). You will need to be relentless with them. If they give you a stupid answer, tell them to escalate your request to a manager.

2. You simply shouldn't be using a minivan for 100% UberX. It's the wrong kind of car (too expensive unless the MPG is much better than I think.) What is the MPG?

3. Can you drive to another area that has higher rates or more surge?

4. Does Uber offer any hourly or weekly trip incentives in your area or a nearby area? For some drivers, that is the only way to justify driving.

5. Other drivers only work during surge at events (before and after concerts and sports games) and high demand holidays (New Years Eve and 4th of July.)

6. Did you, finally, get your $250 bonus?


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## InertUber (Jul 18, 2016)

Agent99 said:


> 1. If you want to discuss being signed up for another class of rides other than UberX, it's best to meet Uber in person at one of their Driver Service Centers. I know I am fortunate to have one nearby. If visiting a center is impossible, try again emailing the CSRs (customer service representatives). You will need to be relentless with them. If they give you a stupid answer, tell them to escalate your request to a manager.
> 
> 2. You simply shouldn't be using a minivan for 100% UberX. It's the wrong kind of car (too expensive unless the MPG is much better than I think.) What is the MPG?
> 
> ...


I actually used a referral link from someone in California. The page it took me to said something like "... just sent you $500. Register to collect your signup bonus". Nowhere in my account, neither in the app nor on the Uber website was there any reference to the sign-up bonus or what was required of me to collect it. I emailed a few times asking about that and was given vague answers, never mentioning how much exactly the bonus was for. They did say I needed 25 rides to collect it. One reply did say "I see clearly you are eligible for the sign-up bonus after completing 25 rides."

So after I completed 25 rides, I emailed again, quoting previous emails, and asked where my $500 was. The first reply said the driver who referred me got $250 but I get nothing. I verified my referrer had been paid $250. I emailed again reminding them that someone at Uber had verified I was getting the sign-up bonus. The reply was "Oh, really sorry, you are right, and we've put $250 on your account. I couldn't get instant-pay on a bonus, so waited until it hit my checking account before emailing again complaining the bonus was supposed to be $500. They said I'd need to send in a screenshot of where it said I was supposed to get $500 for signing up. I told them I shouldn't have to take a screenshot and should be able to believe they would make good on their offer. I contacted my referrer and they sent me a screenshot of the page people are sent to using their link. I attached that to an email. They ignored several emails on the subject just asking for a response over the next week. Finally I get a reply saying they've put another $250 on my account.

So, yes I got a $500 signup bonus for 25 rides. I've learned that no matter what I could do to maximize profit, it just isn't worth my time or dealing with such a blood sucking corporation or a large number of the passengers they attract. It paid great after fighting for that bonus, but they've lost me. Driving for Uber any more would just be giving that bonus back to them ride by ride.


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

InertUber said:


> I actually used a referral link from someone in California. The page it took me to said something like "... just sent you $500. Register to collect your signup bonus". Nowhere in my account, neither in the app nor on the Uber website was there any reference to the sign-up bonus or what was required of me to collect it. I emailed a few times asking about that and was given vague answers, never mentioning how much exactly the bonus was for. They did say I needed 25 rides to collect it. One reply did say "I see clearly you are eligible for the sign-up bonus after completing 25 rides."
> 
> So after I completed 25 rides, I emailed again, quoting previous emails, and asked where my $500 was. The first reply said the driver who referred me got $250 but I get nothing. I verified my referrer had been paid $250. I emailed again reminding them that someone at Uber had verified I was getting the sign-up bonus. The reply was "Oh, really sorry, you are right, and we've put $250 on your account. I couldn't get instant-pay on a bonus, so waited until it hit my checking account before emailing again complaining the bonus was supposed to be $500. They said I'd need to send in a screenshot of where it said I was supposed to get $500 for signing up. I told them I shouldn't have to take a screenshot and should be able to believe they would make good on their offer. I contacted my referrer and they sent me a screenshot of the page people are sent to using their link. I attached that to an email. They ignored several emails on the subject just asking for a response over the next week. Finally I get a reply saying they've put another $250 on my account.
> 
> So, yes I got a $500 signup bonus for 25 rides. I've learned that no matter what I could do to maximize profit, it just isn't worth my time or dealing with such a blood sucking corporation or a large number of the passengers they attract. It paid great after fighting for that bonus, but they've lost me. Driving for Uber any more would just be giving that bonus back to them ride by ride.


You went through way too much hassle to get the bonus you deserved, but I am glad you received it. You really explained the details well. Will you continue driving P/T rides for Lyft, or are you finished with them too?


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

InertUber said:


> So after my first 25 pax on Uber, it's not looking good. These numbers are fudged a bit so the Uber police will have a harder time figuring out who I am, but I adjusted them all in Uber's favor. Please say so if you think these calculations are incorrect. I emailed support explaining I'm driving a mini-van with 7 seatbelts, so maybe I'd make more if I was getting UberXL pings. At least 3 of these first 25 rides were 5+ pax. Seems I should have been paid more. The reply to my email was "Most drivers register as UberX." lol Thanks.
> 
> $300 gross payments from Uber for my first 25 rides. $18 of that was reimbursement for airport pickup fees, So $282 gross.
> 
> ...


your math is bad; should not be counting vehicle inspection; you including gas as separate item, then your 35cents/mile seems high; you don't include insurance, you going to pay that regardless... maintenance is high too...doubt you driving mercedes... then when you go into taxes, you include taxes as a cost; why? is there a job out there that you can work that you do not pay taxes, the only taxes you should consider are employer taxes, oasdi and medicare 7.65%...


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## Bad uber pro (May 16, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> your math is bad; should not be counting vehicle inspection; you including gas as separate item, then your 35cents/mile seems high; you don't include insurance, you going to pay that regardless... maintenance is high too...doubt you driving mercedes... then when you go into taxes, you include taxes as a cost; why? is there a job out there that you can work that you do not pay taxes, the only taxes you should consider are employer taxes, oasdi and medicare 7.65%...


Dude, do you have any clue what you're talking about lol. I like the part" you going to pay that regardless" ... Well, just work for free since you have to make your car payments and gas regardless if you pick up the passangers or not. Oh, and your tax analysis is terrible. Please don't come out here and give people wrong tax advice because obviously you have no clue


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

Bad uber pro said:


> Dude, do you have any clue what you're talking about lol. I like the part" you going to pay that regardless" ... Well, just work for free since you have to make your car payments and gas regardless if you pick up the passangers or not. Oh, and your tax analysis is terrible. Please don't come out here and give people wrong tax advice because obviously you have no clue


You did not correct me where I was wrong, where did you get 35 cents per mile and you did not explain how you could use one time fee as a cost for per hour wage, unless you assign long term miles. Insurance...you must have it if you own a car, unless, you did not own a car prior to uber, and y ou bought it only for uber, in that case, go ahead include it, but you must now add the cost of public transportation to your prior job


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## InertUber (Jul 18, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> You did not correct me where I was wrong, where did you get 35 cents per mile and you did not explain how you could use one time fee as a cost for per hour wage, unless you assign long term miles. Insurance...you must have it if you own a car, unless, you did not own a car prior to uber, and y ou bought it only for uber, in that case, go ahead include it, but you must now add the cost of public transportation to your prior job


You're welcome to repost with my numbers corrected. Please show me how much you think I'll make if I continue driving Uber, with no more bonuses. I'm not recalculating anything. I'm TOTALLY convinced Uber is an evil company to work for, and I'm done thinking about it. Thanks!


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## InertUber (Jul 18, 2016)

Agent99 said:


> You went through way too much hassle to get the bonus you deserved, but I am glad you received it. You really explained the details well. Will you continue driving P/T rides for Lyft, or are you finished with them too?


I start a full time job next week, but last weekend was a record for me driving Lyft. Grossed *$580* - 25% =*$435* + $60 in-app tips = *$495* - 1 tank of gas $42 = *$453*
29 rides logged into the app for 14 hours.
I probably had ~$20 in cash tips too.

While it turned out great, it was not typical because I had (2) long rides in about an hour and 15 minutes totaling $235 gross. Long Plus ride @ 300% primetime, then a really long Plus ride no primetime. Best and third best paying rides I've ever had, back to back. Change those to 3 or 4 typical rides in an hour and I made half as much for the weekend. Without those 2 rides it would not be worth driving. I may drive some Lyft in the future if I'm really bored or their pay improves a lot.


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

Sounds like Lyft Plus rides during P/T is the way to go...


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## Lance A (Aug 13, 2016)

Your biggest calculation margin of error is probably the .35 per mile. First, when a $ per mile cost is quoted, all vehicle costs would be in it. Just FYI. You counted fuel outside this. Maybe you are saying .35 per mile even after fuel costs; not sure without more clarity. And if you are, .35 is probably high instead of too low since fuel is such a large component of vehicle costs. The you have to determine how you are going to treat your fixed costs like depreciation and insurance. This depends on how you do your taxes first, mileage deduction or actual costs. Then you need to distinguish against real incremental increasing fixed costs (like adding more data to your cell phone plan to support the Uber app) versus "opportunity" costs (like, if you go to Uncle Sam with actual costs versus the mileage deduction, you get to write off the business portion of your insurance costs... but you didn't really have that extra expense due to Uber driving because your insurance really was fixed... the same as if you had no business use of vehicle at all). Then with just a few hundred miles of driving, your maintenance and repairs etc are on the closer to zero side, leaving your actual vehicle expenses to be basically your fuel expenses. In other words, recalculate using your fuel cost and zero cents per mile to get the better case profit scenario.


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

Lance A said:


> ...In other words, recalculate using your fuel cost and zero cents per mile to get the better case profit scenario.


Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

AAA lists the average yearly operating cost for a 4-door driven 15,000 miles as $8,716/year, or roughly $0.58 per mile (the cost of fuel, maintenance, tires, insurance, license and registration fees, taxes, depreciation and finance charges associated with driving a typical sedan 15,000 miles annually). This does NOT include commercial insurance, which is actually more expensive but will just use this number for the sake of argument.

Now, our intrepid OP said he drove 300 miles over 16 hours. If we want this to be a full time gig, that's 150 miles a day 5 days a week, or 39,000 miles per year. Using $0.58 per mile as per AAA, that gives an average yearly cost of $22,600.

Our intrepid OP also said he pulled in a gross of $282 over that 16 hours. After Uber's take that's going to be about $200, so to keep things simple let's say the hourly net is around $12/hr after taxes (being generous). That comes out to about $24,960 per year.

Well that doesn't look good now does it? Using the OP as an "average" driver and AAA as the average expenses, the average Uber driver makes about nothing for a straight net. The only way you actually make anything is by playing Uncle Sam's deduction game. Now if you're a good little record keeper and don't mind receiving the occasional IRS inquiry, you should be able to get all your tax payments back. But keep in mind, these are DEDUCTIONS, not CREDITS. You can't get back more than you owe (though you may be able to carry over deductions into the future). In this case, the OP would have a tax bill of about $6,240, but with deductions he'd get that $6K back for a net zero tax rate.

Thus, when all is said and done, assuming the OP is an "average" driver in this scenario they would make $31,200/year. But the average vehicle expense is $22,600/year. This would give the average driver a net of of around $8,600/year, or about $4.13 per hour. This assumes you can pull in that rate 8 hours a day 5 days a week and 52 weeks a year, which may be quite unrealistic depending on where you live. It also assumes you don't wreck your car and it doesn't crap out on you from the hell you're putting it through (in which case you're SOL).

And you get zero benefits.

For comparison, the average full-time Walmart employee makes $13/hr (part timers average about $10), has paid time off, healthcare, 401(k), etc. Taxes don't get any simpler than a 1040 EZ. You also don't wreck your car in the process, and even if you did you can always Uber to get to work. 

So...full time average uber driver or full-time average Walmart employee? Not a really difficult choice here. Uber survives because it takes advantage of people who don't know any better. Or in other words: SCAM.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

Xylphan said:


> Truly you have a dizzying intellect.


Wow, no reason to insult when you do not understand someone else's analysis. Lance A is correct in his thinking, and some differences between each driver. Xylphan your first mistake in your comment is to use AAA average rate for 15k miles and applying it to a professional driver. For drivers, the cost per mile is no where close to 58 cents per mile. And most will not discuss this probably to keep the IRS from changing the tax code for drivers.

You need to look at the incremental cost of driving, what is that additional mile costing me to drive that I otherwise would not. So, for me, I drive personal about 20k per year and go for 50k for uber. After four years, we got total 280k miles; if i did not drive for uber, personal would be 80k, so additional 200k miles depreciated my car by..... $5,000 yes, crazy, but that is all, so cost for me, is 5 cents per mile.

Insurance - since this is rideshare of personal vehicles, got to have insurance, and so only additional is the "period 1" or $60 per half year or 25,000 miles; 0.2 cents per mile...yes.

tires - $1k per 50,000 miles or 2 cents; 10k/30k maint..$120/$1000 is 4.2 cents per mile; repairs at $5k per 100k miles; 5 cents per mile; i have hybrid so gas is $3 per 38 mile; 7.9 cents per mile...and it is the biggest cost which i am looking into electric for next car, so in total it is only *24.3 cents *and the irs gives us 54 cents; so if your taxes on your income from driving is over 45%; you are making money by driving dead miles. But, you go ahead think of this as SCAM 


Xylphan said:


> Uber survives because it takes advantage of people who don't know any better. Or in other words: SCAM.


I consider driving for Uber as an opportunity and plan on putting as many miles on my car as possible. Happy driving, in your case, happy parking.


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## RideSharingTest (Aug 23, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> Wow, no reason to insult when you do not understand someone else's analysis. Lance A is correct in his thinking, and some differences between each driver. Xylphan your first mistake in your comment is to use AAA average rate for 15k miles and applying it to a professional driver. For drivers, the cost per mile is no where close to 58 cents per mile. And most will not discuss this probably to keep the IRS from changing the tax code for drivers.
> 
> You need to look at the incremental cost of driving, what is that additional mile costing me to drive that I otherwise would not. So, for me, I drive personal about 20k per year and go for 50k for uber. After four years, we got total 280k miles; if i did not drive for uber, personal would be 80k, so additional 200k miles depreciated my car by..... $5,000 yes, crazy, but that is all, so cost for me, is 5 cents per mile.
> 
> ...


Actually, according the math, the cost/expense for the driver of $.58 per mile is pretty accurate. The range probably falls within $.50 per mile and $.60 per mile driven. See this thread here:
https://uberpeople.net/threads/the-...-have-been-waiting-for-how-much-profit.99038/

Keep in mind this math that was done in this instance (see thread link), does not account for depreciation of the vehicle. So. $.58 per mile estimate of cost to the Uber driver might actually be a under what it costs a ride sharing driver over the long haul. With depreciation figured in, it may be above $.58 per mile driven for costs to the Uber driver.

Be sure you check out the "spreadsheet" on that thread link for a cost breakdown analysis.


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## Lance A (Aug 13, 2016)

Xylphan said:


> Truly you have a dizzying intellect.
> 
> AAA lists the average yearly operating cost for a 4-door driven 15,000 miles as $8,716/year, or roughly $0.58 per mile (the cost of fuel, maintenance, tires, insurance, license and registration fees, taxes, depreciation and finance charges associated with driving a typical sedan 15,000 miles annually). This does NOT include commercial insurance, which is actually more expensive but will just use this number for the sake of argument.
> 
> ...


You didn't follow my argument and worse yet, you pulled one sentence out of my entire analysis and quoted only it. I was pointing out that there really are three different possible calculations for determining earnings: IRS standard mileage deduction, IRS sanctioned actual costs including fixed costs, and finally IRS sanctioned actual costs while considering your fixed costs to not be real incremental fixed costs but rather opportunistic costs (that would never enter into the equation unless you were trying to "deflate" your earnings for, say, tax purposes.)

The poster calculated using the scenario that produces the lowest earnings calculation (and also made a mistake making the result even worse). I was just suggesting looking at the best case scenario, which reduces to owning and operating a vehicle almost exclusively for personal use and then making one Uber or Lyft ride for the entire year: in which case your cost per vehicle mile approaches that of fuel cost only.


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## Lance A (Aug 13, 2016)

RideSharingTest said:


> Actually, according the math, the cost/expense for the driver of $.58 per mile is pretty accurate. The range probably falls within $.50 per mile and $.60 per mile driven. See this thread here:
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/the-...-have-been-waiting-for-how-much-profit.99038/
> 
> Keep in mind this math that was done in this instance (see thread link), does not account for depreciation of the vehicle. So. $.58 per mile estimate of cost to the Uber driver might actually be a under what it costs a ride sharing driver over the long haul. With depreciation figured in, it may be above $.58 per mile driven for costs to the Uber driver.
> ...


Everyone should understand that there are many ways to calculate gross profit for a business that owns and operates vehicles. For these you get either maximal or minimal gross profits or something in the middle. Is there a "right" way to do it? Yeah there is; its the IRS way (one of the two ways sanctioned by the IRS). But is there a "true" way, or way that really tells you what your "true" earnings are? That's little tougher to answer. Going back to the original poster's case, a "truer" picture probably discards incremental fixed vehicle costs, _only because he was considering a very small percentage of vehicle use for business. _If instead he was looking at a full year of driving at, say > 10% of driving for business, I would not have suggested what I did. Read my previous post for more clarification.

As for the whole, 58 or 54 or whatever number you want to use for calculating expenses, realize that these figures are just "averages" (and estimates at that) for all cars, driven in all areas, driven with all driving techniques, etc, etc. Always be careful when invoking "averages" in any particular use case scenario because you will never get a correct result (even if you do get a result you either "want" or "don't want" to support your argument) The simple reality is that every unique driver and vehicle will have a unique cost per mile associated with it. Furthermore, this real cost is only point in time; it will change in a heartbeat if you blow an engine or transmission, especially if prematurely. Studies have been done on this and they show that roughly 60-70% of situations come in under the IRS guidelines leaving 30-40% above. Although not perfect, I suspect the IRS is reasonably happy with their figures from year to year.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

RideSharingTest said:


> Actually, according the math, the cost/expense for the driver of $.58 per mile is pretty accurate. The range probably falls within $.50 per mile and $.60 per mile driven. See this thread here:
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/the-...-have-been-waiting-for-how-much-profit.99038/
> 
> Keep in mind this math that was done in this instance (see thread link), does not account for depreciation of the vehicle. So. $.58 per mile estimate of cost to the Uber driver might actually be a under what it costs a ride sharing driver over the long haul. With depreciation figured in, it may be above $.58 per mile driven for costs to the Uber driver.
> ...


Did you actually look at his spreadsheet, it is hilariously bad. Cost, "insurance cost" 36.5 cents per mile!!! we are talking ride-share business here. only $60 per 25k miles. or less if you drive less in 6 months. His MPG sucks for rideshare, but fine, it is 13 cents for him, that is 5 cents more than me, and most who drive fuel efficient cars, like prius and hybrid camrys. OMG, he counted 1 cent per mile for DATA on phone. LOL some of the other stuff...close to mine...but seriously, he is overstating real expense for rideshare by at least 37.5 cents per mile; and as for what car he uses, fine, let his expense be 17.5 cents per mile; again, not even close to 54 cents.

People need to stop giving credit to posters with graphs and spreadsheets.


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

drexl_s said:


> Wow, no reason to insult when you do not understand someone else's analysis.


I wasn't being insulting. I was making an observation. Your analysis makes no sense. You're basically claiming that driving your car around like a taxi won't incur the same maintenance and operating expenses as a taxi.



drexl_s said:


> Lance A is correct in his thinking, and some differences between each driver. Xylphan your first mistake in your comment is to use AAA average rate for 15k miles and applying it to a professional driver. For drivers, the cost per mile is no where close to 58 cents per mile.


You're correct. It's actually more since they put commensurately more wear and tear on their vehicles. For example, a quick google search turned up some numbers for the average operating cost for a taxi in the city of Quebec. An average cab there put on 42,000 miles per year which ended up making the average cost work out to about $0.85 per mile.



drexl_s said:


> You need to look at the incremental cost of driving, what is that additional mile costing me to drive that I otherwise would not. So, for me, I drive personal about 20k per year and go for 50k for uber. After four years, we got total 280k miles; if i did not drive for uber, personal would be 80k, so additional 200k miles depreciated my car by..... $5,000 yes, crazy, but that is all, so cost for me, is 5 cents per mile.


No, you need to look a real life examples. No amount of magical thinking is going to beat physics. A significant portion of taxi fares go just to the maintenance of the vehicle itself, and that's with the discount of bulk servicing and parts. Your engine, transmission, brakes, calipers, etc. aren't going to wear out any less just because you're an Uber driver.



drexl_s said:


> Insurance - since this is rideshare of personal vehicles, got to have insurance, and so only additional is the "period 1" or $60 per half year or 25,000 miles; 0.2 cents per mile...yes.
> 
> tires - $1k per 50,000 miles or 2 cents; 10k/30k maint..$120/$1000 is 4.2 cents per mile; repairs at $5k per 100k miles; 5 cents per mile; i have hybrid so gas is $3 per 38 mile; 7.9 cents per mile...and it is the biggest cost which i am looking into electric for next car, so in total it is only *24.3 cents *and the irs gives us 54 cents; so if your taxes on your income from driving is over 45%; you are making money by driving dead miles. But, you go ahead think of this as SCAM




Oh my. You really need to learn how taxes work.

The IRS does not GIVE you $0.54/mile. The IRS allows you to DEDUCT $0.54 per mile. It is NOT A CREDIT. Once you hit zero taxes, you cannot deduct anymore. You can possibly roll over some of the deductions to the following tax year, but the IRS does not pay you in any way shape or form for dead miles.

Furthermore, you are very much underestimating the average cost of maintaining a vehicles, especially a heavily used one. Choose any major auto report (AAA, Edmunds, etc.). You may be lucky and end up 2 standard deviations away on the low side. Someone else may be unlucky and have their transmission fall out two weeks into their Uber career. The point being, on average the cost per mile is $0.58 according to national statistics (not some random internet person), and that's going to low ball since most people don't drive their cars like taxis.



drexl_s said:


> I consider driving for Uber as an opportunity and plan on putting as many miles on my car as possible. Happy driving, in your case, happy parking.


Have fun driving your car into the ground and making half of minimum wage.


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## Lance A (Aug 13, 2016)

[QUOTE
You're basically claiming that driving your car around like a taxi won't incur the same maintenance and operating expenses as a taxi. 
[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone is claiming that. But taking 25 fares and calling it quits for the year is not that at all. The two extremes are 100% business use and 1 fare with the rest going to church on Sunday. Most everybody is in the middle and that needs to be considered if you want to know whether you made a small amount driving, or a real small amount.... there, you just got my opinion on the matter which tends to be in agreement with yours in all but the better case scenarios.

I tell people the following, "When you first start out, it is real easy to make _below_ minimum wage as a driver" . And unless you start doing some real revenue enhancement and cost reductions, your are gonna stay there. But, if you are a smart driver (and there are quite a few of them I am noting), you actually can do pretty well... you'll never _not_ beat your car into the ground, however, but you can arrive at a revenue/cost structure to keep going over the long term.


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## drexl_s (May 20, 2016)

Xylphan My turn.


Xylphan said:


> Truly you have a dizzying intellect.





Xylphan said:


> I wasn't being insulting. I was making an observation. Your analysis makes no sense. You're basically claiming that driving your car around like a taxi won't incur the same maintenance and operating expenses as a taxi.


Yes, "dizzying intellect" is insult. As for my analysis, that is exactly what I am saying, driving for uber in the end after taxes, yup, actually could make you money.



Xylphan said:


> You're correct. It's actually more since they put commensurately more wear and tear on their vehicles. For example, a quick google search turned up some numbers for the average operating cost for a taxi in the city of Quebec. An average cab there put on 42,000 miles per year which ended up making the average cost work out to about $0.85 per mile.


You did not explain how you got 85cents. Please do, so we can have something to discuss.



Xylphan said:


> Oh my. You really need to learn how taxes work.
> 
> The IRS does not GIVE you $0.54/mile. The IRS allows you to DEDUCT $0.54 per mile. It is NOT A CREDIT. Once you hit zero taxes, you cannot deduct anymore. You can possibly roll over some of the deductions to the following tax year, but the IRS does not pay you in any way shape or form for dead miles.


read my quote again: so in total it is only *24.3 cents *and the irs gives us 54 cents; so if your taxes on your income from driving is over 45%
IRS gives 54 cent deduction, yes, i do know difference. 24.3 cents/54 cents is 45% therefore, if tax is 45% and you deduct 54 cents per mile driven, then tax savings is 24.3 cents, because you pay 24.3 cents less tax, this offsets the payments you did maintaining your car. If you reduce the cost of your car by buying more efficient car, then the percentage tax needed is lower and you could actually make money by driving more dead miles, as long as the taxable income is at least equal to total expense resulting in net zero income.



Xylphan said:


> Furthermore, you are very much underestimating the average cost of maintaining a vehicles, especially a heavily used one. Choose any major auto report (AAA, Edmunds, etc.). You may be lucky and end up 2 standard deviations away on the low side. Someone else may be unlucky and have their transmission fall out two weeks into their Uber career. The point being, on average the cost per mile is $0.58 according to national statistics (not some random internet person), and that's going to low ball since most people don't drive their cars like taxis.


Again, same mistake, you are quoting average costs based per 14/15k miles driven a year, pro driver's average cost is much lower. The numbers you are including are insurance, lower mpg vehicles; and depreciation on time for newer vehicles as well.



Xylphan said:


> Have fun driving your car into the ground and making half of minimum wage.


I presume you don't drive. Which is good, leave the opportunity to others. How much people make net, depends on markets and other variables. If people work hard, and drive smart, they can make way more than minimum wage.


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

The math isn't that hard. Here's a simple example. Let's say you do three fares in the DC area in an hour and make about $25. For the sake of argument, let's leave out fed/state/local taxes and just assume you get it all back. 

Gross Fares: $25/hour
Total Fares: 3
Total Miles: 25
Uber Fee: 25%
Booking Fee: $1.35 per fare
Average Cost/Mile: $0.24 (Unrealistically low)
Fare After Expenses: $8.70/hour

So, using a previously mentioned unrealistic maintenance cost number of $0.24 per mile (which is not even close to what it really costs) if you made $25 per hour your take home would be $0.45 above minimum wage. (Or rather, it would have been. DC's minimum wage is now $15/hour, so actually you're only making 58% of minimum wage but let's stick with the $8.25 number for now.) 

And you still get zero benefits, with the added bonus of destroying your car.

You can easily make more than that just being a pizza delivery driver (if you still want to beat the hell out of your car). Or better still, any entry level retail job will pay you more, with benefits, and you don't wreck your car to boot.

I'm not some bitter ex-Uberite with a grudge. I've never been a driver. I started looking into Uber because it sounded like a fun way to make some side cash. I like the idea of Uber. But I'm a software engineer, so I have a natural habit of digging into the details and analyzing. When I started analyzing the numbers, I noticed a rather large discrepancy between claims made by Uber and what the calculations were showing. Sadly, there appears to be a rather large number of people who don't seem to realize how badly they are being taken advantage of.

Now again, I'm talking about the average Uber driver here. In any probability distribution there will be a few lucky winners. Most won't be. I don't have a problem with that, IF the company is honest about it or at least shows their stats so people can make a well-informed judgement call. But Uber is not honest. They don't publish information in a readily available way so that the average person can make a well informed decision. They mislead, obfuscate, and rely on the ignorance of the general public to fill their coffers.

But perhaps I'm just missing something. So far I haven't seen a single posting that demonstrates sustainable income better than minimum wage (but I've seen several that show worse). I'm not talking about a single night of lucky fares and surge pricing. I'm talking about a long term average. I'd really like to see one and the cost breakdown.


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## Lance A (Aug 13, 2016)

Xylphan said:


> But I'm a software engineer, so I have a natural habit of digging into the details and analyzing.


Excellent. Please help me test the software I have written and am about to ship, which allows you to track revenue and expenses and calculate actual earnings, both in real time as you drive and over any historical period of you driving you choose. It also gives you a basis for improving your earnings with some analytics on your individual financials and driving patterns.

www.around-n-about.com

You don't need to drive to test the SW. As you know, you can easily simulate revenue and expense scenarios.



Xylphan said:


> Now again, I'm talking about the average Uber driver here. In any probability distribution there will be a few lucky winners. Most won't be.


I'll mention again that one needs to be careful with averages. They really have no place in any accurate individual scenario. They re just mathematical constructs used to attempt to characterize distributions of data. If you insist on using averages to make an individual point, at least use median as opposed to mean.... median will give you an "average" figure that is not pushed left or right by outliers in the data.



Xylphan said:


> But perhaps I'm just missing something. So far I haven't seen a single posting that demonstrates sustainable income better than minimum wage (but I've seen several that show worse). I'm not talking about a single night of lucky fares and surge pricing. I'm talking about a long term average. I'd really like to see one and the cost breakdown.


I was pretty much like you. I started driving because it seemed interesting and fun. But very quicklyI realized I had no idea what I was making. And then I realized few other drivers did either. I did arrive at your conclusion very quickly, however, and that is that the real winner here is Uber who, through artificially low fares, are forcing a lot of their drivers to net below minimum wage.

I could have left it at that and moved on older and wiser to something else. But I thought that maybe I could build something that actually "helped" drivers.... to 1) understand what they are really earning and 2) improve their earnings. So that is what I am doing. Help me do this if you are interested. If you want to test great. If you want to do more, PM me at [email protected]. Or keep doing what you are doing, which is.... well you know what you are doing.

FYI I will attach a screen shot of my driving data "for this month". It is only about a months of data though. Some numbers, like my vehicle cost per mile are thus artificially low because I have not driven enough this month to hit an oil change, let alone a larger vehicle expense like new tires. So try not to call me out as stating a vehicle cost number that can't be realistically sustained... I am already telling you that case. But unlike you, I am not insisting that my expenses will end up being "x" or "y" using averages and thought experiments to support my assertion, I am simply "measuring" and "reporting" what the data for "one actual use case".... over "a period of time" is indicating.


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## shiftydrake (Dec 12, 2015)

Still too long to read


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## Lance A (Aug 13, 2016)

shiftydrake said:


> Still too long to read


Yep.. Not a subject that can be clarified quickly or easily. If it was, there would be little debate on the subject.


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## Ms.Doe (Apr 15, 2016)

the rebel said:


> You posted all that like you are surprised. There are posts throughout this board saying it is hard to make minimum wage as a net income once you figure out your true costs, the problem is that a few in markets like San Fransisco and NYC make good money and people buy into their posts ignoring the rest of us, then they are surprised when they figure out we are not all crazy, in most markets it is damn hard to make much more than minimum wage, I personally make $9.50 an hour after expenses, and I was a cabbie for over a year a few years ago and know the tricks to stay efficient and busy.


WOW! LOVE YOUR POST! VERY WELL SAID! I ABSOLUTELY AGREE!%


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

Lance A said:


> Excellent. Please help me test the software I have written and am about to ship, which allows you to track revenue and expenses and calculate actual earnings, both in real time as you drive and over any historical period of you driving you choose. It also gives you a basis for improving your earnings with some analytics on your individual financials and driving patterns.
> 
> You don't need to drive to test the SW. As you know, you can easily simulate revenue and expense scenarios.


It doesn't look like your making use of the Uber API, which allows you to automatically get information about the trip. This would allow you simplify the UI as the user would not need to manually enter that info. The widget itself can be embedded directly into your own app, so you could hypothetically create a single application that had all the functionality of the current Uber app while allowing you to value-add your own features (like expense tracking). If you're hooked into their API you may even be able to update information in real time (I haven't explored it to that depth so I'm not sure on that).

I'd also recommend creating "simple" and "advanced" views. Most drivers will just want gross, expenses, and net. And instead of having hard defined categories I'd recommend a simpler UI that just has an "Enter Expense:" box and then have a drop down that allows them to select the category (or add a category if none match).

In addition, I'd recommend adding different views for "Current Trip", "Current Day", and "Overall". Unfortunately, since you don't know where you're going until you pick up a fare, you can't really do a "Predict Profit" type of view which would allow you to potentially filter out fares that won't really be worth it based on projected expenses, surge, etc.

I'm also assuming that your current application is using a local data store. If you're interested in gathering overall metrics (which I would be), you could consider setting up server with a scalable doc store like Mongo and allow users to optionally send anonymous data about their trips and expenses. Once you have that data you could expand your current site to display driver statistics via an OpenLayers based web application (or if you want to get fancy, you could use Cesium for a 3D based display), or further enhance your phone app to do that as well. For the broadest market, a web app would probably be better, but that's just my opinion. That would be eye opening to many potential and current Uber drivers.

Just some initial thoughts and critiques.



Lance A said:


> I'll mention again that one needs to be careful with averages. They really have no place in any accurate individual scenario. They re just mathematical constructs used to attempt to characterize distributions of data. If you insist on using averages to make an individual point, at least use median as opposed to mean.... median will give you an "average" figure that is not pushed left or right by outliers in the data.


In a normal distribution (which is what I am generously assuming is the case for Uber drivers), the mean, median, and mode are all equal. Personally, I think the distribution is a positive skew normal, in which case the mean would be high-balling what drivers actually make since the mean is higher than the median in such distributions. However, since Uber does not publish this information these are just educated guesses. I seriously doubt the distribution is negatively skewed regardless.

If you get enough users participating and sending in data then you could construct a realistic replica of the actual distribution.



Lance A said:


> I was pretty much like you. I started driving because it seemed interesting and fun. But very quicklyI realized I had no idea what I was making. And then I realized few other drivers did either. I did arrive at your conclusion very quickly, however, and that is that the real winner here is Uber who, through artificially low fares, are forcing a lot of their drivers to net below minimum wage.
> 
> I could have left it at that and moved on older and wiser to something else. But I thought that maybe I could build something that actually "helped" drivers.... to 1) understand what they are really earning and 2) improve their earnings. So that is what I am doing. Help me do this if you are interested. If you want to test great. If you want to do more, PM me at ,<<>>. Or keep doing what you are doing, which is.... well you know what you are doing.
> 
> FYI I will attach a screen shot of my driving data "for this month". It is only about a months of data though. Some numbers, like my vehicle cost per mile are thus artificially low because I have not driven enough this month to hit an oil change, let alone a larger vehicle expense like new tires. So try not to call me out as stating a vehicle cost number that can't be realistically sustained... I am already telling you that case. But unlike you, I am not insisting that my expenses will end up being "x" or "y" using averages and thought experiments to support my assertion, I am simply "measuring" and "reporting" what the data for "one actual use case".... over "a period of time" is indicating.


I didn't start driving for Uber. I compiled the available data I could find and built a Monte Carlo simulation to see what the most likely probable wage would be. The result was a far cry from what Uber advertised (which is well into the low probability upper bounds).

Now some people will be in that upper bound, and Uber will be sure and promote those "testimonials". Some people on here seem like they might be in that upper bound. But the vast majority will not be, and will be earning less than minimum wage when all is said and done.

Either way, there is no "easy money" here. It's more like gambling. Like any gamble, you can do things that can improve your odds but the house always wins.


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## Lance A (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks for your excellent comments. I really appreciate.

Uber doesn't have a Driver api... yet. I've reached out to them but with no progress...yet. I don't see the verbs I need in the Rider api, and they are "Accept rider request", "Rider Cancelled", "Rider picked up", "Rider dropped off", and "Fare for Trip available". If I am missing anything please, please enlighten me.

Agree on the averages analysis too with one exception, the distribution, whether normal or not, is very "wide" which in my opinion renders averages useless for individual calculations. Vehicle MPG ranges from say 6 in the trucking industry to +60 with the latest hybrids under ideal conditions. That's a hell of a wide distribution. It's clear you understand this. It's is also clear most drivers do not which is why i keep challenging anyone using an average in a calc. I want them to think about "their" vehicle costs and not the industry averages. Only after they acknowledge that "their" costs are different can the even leap to thinking about how to improve them.

On the radar on most of the other stuff.

Generally we are on the same page except for the gambling analogy. This is running a business and trying to run an efficient business. That's different. You are in control of many variables running a business; not so in the casino. Here is a more generalized post on the subject I wrote this morning:

https://uberpeople.net/threads/thoughts-on-the-low-pay-claims-people-are-making.99340/


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## Lance A (Aug 13, 2016)

Oh almost forgot, you've got great ideas, how busy are you ?  Remember the old saying, "Don't mine the mine, mine the miners...." I think there is opportunity here, but only if awareness is raised. That is the hurdle now... convincing drivers of the need for such SW to begin with, if they want to make a decent wage doing this.


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

Lance A said:


> Thanks for your excellent comments. I really appreciate.
> 
> Uber doesn't have a Driver api... yet. I've reached out to them but with no progress...yet. I don't see the verbs I need in the Rider api, and they are "Accept rider request", "Rider Cancelled", "Rider picked up", "Rider dropped off", and "Fare for Trip available". If I am missing anything please, please enlighten me.


Oops, your right. They've only documented their Rider API. You'd have to reverse engineer their protocol to see their Driver API, which I'm betting dollars to donuts is simply an undocumented REST API. Serves me right for skimming the docs. I saw "fare", "API", and "widget" and just assumed the provided REST services for both.



Lance A said:


> Agree on the averages analysis too with one exception, the distribution, whether normal or not, is very "wide" which in my opinion renders averages useless for individual calculations. Vehicle MPG ranges from say 6 in the trucking industry to +60 with the latest hybrids under ideal conditions. That's a hell of a wide distribution. It's clear you understand this. It's is also clear most drivers do not which is why i keep challenging anyone using an average in a calc. I want them to think about "their" vehicle costs and not the industry averages. Only after they acknowledge that "their" costs are different can the even leap to thinking about how to improve them.


In my case I was interested in projections, which can only realistically include averages (or at best averages for broad categories). For example if, I used the average provided by AAA as a general case for the average 4 door. In my personal case though, I have a Prius C. The average cost per mile of a Prius C is less than the general average, so my projections would end up being more favorable. But I can't necessarily use the Prius C numbers and extrapolate to the general user base. 



Lance A said:


> On the radar on most of the other stuff.
> 
> Generally we are on the same page except for the gambling analogy. This is running a business and trying to run an efficient business. That's different. You are in control of many variables running a business; not so in the casino. Here is a more generalized post on the subject I wrote this morning:
> <<can't include links yet>>


You are in control of YOUR variables. You can only reduce your expenses so far, and how well you do is a combination of luck and planning. But the big variables are controlled by Uber. They control rates, fees, surges, surge pricing, and guaranteed minimums. They control what happens and where. And you can be damn sure they're stacking the deck in their favor, not yours.

A smart gambler knows the odds and knows ways to reduce them in his/her favor. But no matter how smart you are, the house always has the edge. Uber holds all the cards here.


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

Lance A said:


> Oh almost forgot, you've got great ideas, how busy are you ?  Remember the old saying, "Don't mine the mine, mine the miners...." I think there is opportunity here, but only if awareness is raised. That is the hurdle now... convincing drivers of the need for such SW to begin with, if they want to make a decent wage doing this.


The problem here is that there's a very good chance such software would make Uber extremely pissed off. If you start aggregating real world statistics and putting it on public display (something Uber has refused to do), it's not going to show Uber in a good light. They'd be on you like vultures on a carcass, and leave just about as much behind. 

But it would be fun as hell. 

Otherwise, I'm still exploring options for a side gig so not too busy  . I haven't done iOS development specifically, but I've done software development across so many different languages/operating systems/platforms/hardware/etc. that I seriously doubt there's anything in it that I couldn't pick up in day. I will say the Swift programming language looks like the bastard offspring of Java, Javascript, and Pascal though.


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## m1a1mg (Oct 22, 2015)

Xylphan said:


> Truly you have a dizzying intellect.
> 
> AAA lists the average yearly operating cost for a 4-door driven 15,000 miles as $8,716/year, or roughly $0.58 per mile (the cost of fuel, maintenance, tires, insurance, license and registration fees, taxes, depreciation and finance charges associated with driving a typical sedan 15,000 miles annually). This does NOT include commercial insurance, which is actually more expensive but will just use this number for the sake of argument.


Oh joy, another brilliant taxi driver trying to save us Uber fools from ourselves.

The AAA numbers are from when gas was roughly $4 per gallon. My tank is full at $1.79. Insurance, license, registration fees, taxes, car payment, and finance charges would all be present regardless. I need my car all the time. I do not drive it all the time.

It is simply amazing to me how many people come to this site claiming to be some kind of super smart guy in some xyz field, who is here to save us from ourselves. Well, thank you so much. You are just a kind and wonderful human being. You're also completely and utterly, full of it. Enjoy your smelly taxi.


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

m1a1mg said:


> Oh joy, another brilliant taxi driver trying to save us Uber fools from ourselves.


1) Not a Taxi driver

2) Not trying to "save" anyone from Uber



m1a1mg said:


> The AAA numbers are from when gas was roughly $4 per gallon. My tank is full at $1.79. Insurance, license, registration fees, taxes, car payment, and finance charges would all be present regardless. I need my car all the time. I do not drive it all the time.


The is simply not true. The costs per mile (which the IRS uses as well) is calculated based on the statistical analysis of cars on the road in the US. This is done every year as those expenses are necessary to create realistic expense deductions for driver based business (like taxis).

The latest numbers, which were released in April of this year, show the average 4 door sedan as costing $0.57 per mile, down slightly from last year which was $0.58 per mile. The car with lowest cost per mile amortized over 5 years was the Chevy Spark, at $0.37 per mile.

I'm certainly going to trust authoritative sources on this subject a lot more than some random internet poster making baseless and unsubstantiated claims. This information is public, and can be found quite easily with Google.

So unless you have link to AAA's or the IRS methodologies for computing this number where the say that they are using $4/gallon as a cost, your completely wrong.



m1a1mg said:


> It is simply amazing to me how many people come to this site claiming to be some kind of super smart guy in some xyz field, who is here to save us from ourselves.


You're making shit up again. I'm not here to "save" people from driving for Uber. I have two purposes, which you seem to repeatedly and completely miss in your constant construction of strawmen and endless ad hominem attacks. So I will spell them out for you.

1. To research and learn as much as I can about Uber/Lyft/etc. and people's experiences to better construct projections of profitability to ultimately determine whether or not they can be a viable side gig (selfish).

2. Help others make better decisions based on what I've learned and adding to the collective knowledge of the community overall (altruistic).

If Uber would be truthful and forthcoming with their data, I wouldn't need to post anything. But they're not, so a number of people make some pretty big decisions without getting the full picture and/or understanding how things work. I think it's our job, as a community, to help fill in the gaps so new/potentially new drivers can make an informed decision and avoid mistakes.

Yet you somehow keep interpreting this as me on my own personal crusade to bring down Uber. That is a figment of your imagination. I'm researching Uber as potential driver. I most of the way through REGISTERTING as a potential driver. But I'm not going in blind and ignorant, and neither should anyone else. If once I get the data I want from the partner app and my projections still shows Uber as an unprofitable venture for me, well that's just my bad luck. For others it may work perfectly well as part of a well though out financial plan.



m1a1mg said:


> Well, thank you so much. You are just a kind and wonderful human being. You're also completely and utterly, full of it. Enjoy your smelly taxi.


You can't be for real. You post like an angry teenager. Is this person a well known troll or something? I'd like to stop feeding him if that's the case.


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## Euius (May 19, 2016)

InertUber said:


> $300 gross payments from Uber for my first 25 rides. $18 of that was reimbursement for airport pickup fees, So $282 gross.


That's not what the word gross means. But whatever.



> 16 hours on the road (gone from home, including waiting time, and whether I had a pax or not). This is a conservative estimate.


When you're doing 1.5 rides per hour, the error occurs between the driving wheel and seat. Either you're "commuting" too far or sitting like a chump in an airport queue.



> 300 miles driven while gone from home driving Uber. All miles including going to pick pax. Let's say it cost me $40 in gas. This is a conservative estimate.


"Let's say"

At average US gas price of $1.91 that's 21 gallons, or 14 mpg. Stop driving a garbage truck for Uber.

At California gas price or $2.50 (slightly higher than I actually pay here in the Bay area) thats 16 gallons or 18.75 mpg. You're still burning more gas than a Ram 1500.

If you're getting below 35 mpg for UberX, the error occurs between the wheel and chair. If you're getting below 30mpg, then you've surpassed "error" into some new category.



> Let's say my vehicle costs $.35/mile in insurance and maintenance etc. when it probably costs more.


Let's not. Insurance is a) A flat charge per month, and b) a cost you would incur driving for Uber or not.

The only maintenance necessary for a car in good working condition before starting Uber is an oil change every 5k miles, and breaks and tires every 50k. 0.025 cents per mile.

*



If any of you didn't notice, without the $250 signup bonus, YOU, as a taxpayer are paying me more than UBER does!

Click to expand...

*


> It's like government subsidizing getting the drunks home safe! lol


It doesn't work that way. None of that works that way.



> A $1000 airport fine, $180 traffic ticket, or $1000 deductable accident would really make these numbers a lot worse in Uber's favor, wouldn't they?


So you're complaining that you breaking the law or driving poorly might cost you money?[/quote]


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## Euius (May 19, 2016)

Xylphan said:


> The latest numbers, which were released in April of this year, show the average 4 door sedan as costing $0.57 per mile, down slightly from last year which was $0.58 per mile. The car with lowest cost per mile amortized over 5 years was the Chevy Spark, at $0.37 per mile.


First, the standard mileage deduction is 54 cents in 2016.

Second, the IRS standard mileage is not an "average 4 door sedan cost", that's simple fantasy. Rather it is an average cost over _all _personal vehicles in the US, designed to _fully reimburse_ a low mileage driver. Since at low miles, it costs more to operate per mile than at high miles, high mileage drivers who can use the standard deduction are _presumed_ to profit from it.

If you're attempting to claim a cost greater than 30 cents a mile, you just need to stop. That value can be brought down with actual intelligent vehicle choices.

A low cost vehicle driving high miles will _always_ generate a higher deduction from the standard mileage than from actual cost. If you're not driving a low cost vehicle for UberX, then that's on you. (But even then, you could deduct actual cost instead)


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

Euius said:


> First, the standard mileage deduction is 54 cents in 2016.


Yep. But I wasn't talking about that.



Euius said:


> Second, the IRS standard mileage is not an "average 4 door sedan cost", that's simple fantasy. Rather it is an average cost over _all _personal vehicles in the US, designed to _fully reimburse_ a low mileage driver.


I'm not talking about the IRS deduction. I'm talking about the average per mile cost as computed by groups like KBB, Edmunds, and AAA. The costs are amortized over 5 years, assuming 15,000 miles per year. The more miles you drive, the more wear and tear, the more it costs.



Euius said:


> Since at low miles, it costs more to operate per mile than at high miles, high mileage drivers who can use the standard deduction are _presumed_ to profit from it.


That doesn't even make sense. The more wear and tear you put on your vehicle, the more frequent you're going to have to pay maintenance costs. That increases costs, not decreases.



Euius said:


> If you're attempting to claim a cost greater than 30 cents a mile, you just need to stop. That value can be brought down with actual intelligent vehicle choices.


The cost per mile is based on a whole slew of factors, which you apparently choose to ignore. You can see how KBB, Edmund's, etc. go about calculating the costs per mile, and they've been doing it for a number of years. Their numbers are far more well supported by data than yours.



Euius said:


> A low cost vehicle driving high miles will _always_ generate a higher deduction from the standard mileage than from actual cost.


Yes they would, but that's beside the point. Low balling actual costs in a business is a good way to go out of business.



Euius said:


> If you're not driving a low cost vehicle for UberX, then that's on you. (But even then, you could deduct actual cost instead)


My vehicle is well on the low end of vehicle costs, but I don't drive for Uber. My current projections show less than minimum wage as the most likely profit, even with a low cost vehicle. However, once I'm registered I'll be able to get the additional data I need from the partner app to make a final call on profitability. I don't expect it will change the outcome by much though.


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## Euius (May 19, 2016)

Xylphan said:


> I'm not talking about the IRS deduction. I'm talking about the average per mile cost as computed by groups like KBB, Edmunds, and AAA. The costs are amortized over 5 years, assuming 15,000 miles per year. The more miles you drive, the more wear and tear, the more it costs.


They're providing numbers for costs unrelated to Uber. It's not a relevant number.

Uber is not causing me to purchase insurance, license my car, or buy it in the first place. None of those costs are associated with Uber, and it's disingenuous to claim they do.

In total:

6 cents per mile for gasoline
5 cents per mile for depreciation associated with mileage
0.7 cents per mile for maintenance

Insurance costs are unchanged. Financing is unchanged. State registration is unchanged.



> That doesn't even make sense. The more wear and tear you put on your vehicle, the more frequent you're going to have to pay maintenance costs. That increases costs, not decreases.


It does not increase cost _per mile_



> The cost per mile is based on a whole slew of factors, which you apparently choose to ignore.


I ignore nothing, it's just nothing like you claim it to be.



> My current projections show less than minimum wage as the most likely profit, even with a low cost vehicle.


It's those projections that show how lacking your projections are.


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## m1a1mg (Oct 22, 2015)

Euius said:


> They're providing numbers for costs unrelated to Uber. It's not a relevant number.
> 
> Uber is not causing me to purchase insurance, license my car, or buy it in the first place. None of those costs are associated with Uber, and it's disingenuous to claim they do.
> 
> ...


Dead on.

I own a car for everyday life. All costs associated with registering, property tax, insurance, financing, and payment are fixed cost. I incur those costs whether I Uber or not. Therefore, I do not calculate them into my cost for driving Uber per mile.


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

Euius said:


> They're providing numbers for costs unrelated to Uber. It's not a relevant number.
> 
> Uber is not causing me to purchase insurance, license my car, or buy it in the first place. None of those costs are associated with Uber, and it's disingenuous to claim they do.


No, it isn't. You are using a personal depreciating asset in a business. Your trying to use a semantic argument to get out of economic and physical consequences.



Euius said:


> In total:
> 
> 6 cents per mile for gasoline
> 5 cents per mile for depreciation associated with mileage
> ...


You're completely ignoring depreciation, and underestimating maintenance. As cars age, they require more maintenance. As they acquire more wear, the require more maintenance. That's why costs are amortized over the life and mileage of the vehicle (or the time period being measured). Crap breaks. If you don't properly account for that in a projection you can be in for some unpleasant surprises.



Euius said:


> It does not increase cost _per mile_


Yeah. Let me know how that works out when you need a new transmission. 



Euius said:


> I ignore nothing, it's just nothing like you claim it to be.


There's no magic delineation between driving for Uber and not driving for Uber. It's the same damn car. The wear and tear on a car is cumulative, not discrete. You're $.07 per mile for maintenance is assuming maintenance is a fixed yearly cost, when it isn't. It increases over time and usage, just like your car depreciates over time and usage. Do you think something like a data center would say "Well, I was going to use those drives to store a database anyway, so it doesn't really count towards the life expectancy of the drives."? Of course not. They take the planned usage, projected future usage, failure rates, etc. in order to project future expenses and create budgetary allocations to address them.



Euius said:


> It's those projections that show how lacking your projections are.


My projections are based on accrual accounting methods and amortization. Business accounting 101. Standard practice for a business where the core depends on a high expense, high depreciation asset. You don't need to have an MBA to figure this out.


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## InertUber (Jul 18, 2016)

Euius said:


> That's not what the word gross means. But whatever.
> 
> When you're doing 1.5 rides per hour, the error occurs between the driving wheel and seat. Either you're "commuting" too far or sitting like a chump in an airport queue.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Heh, you enjoy yourself trying to work the numbers to end up in your favor, and telling everyone driving Uber is a great job. Me, I'd rather have my source income be more straightforward. The turnover rate, and number of drivers complaining is all the argument I really need. It's not hard work. I actually love it, but the pay makes it a waste of time. From all I've read, it's been proven over and over for tbe majority that have tried it. If it works for you, enjoy. For me, it does not. Good luck!


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## Euius (May 19, 2016)

Xylphan said:


> You're completely ignoring depreciation,


Go back to the message you quoted, re-read it, then admit you're wrong.



> and underestimating maintenance. As cars age, they require more maintenance. As they acquire more wear, the require more maintenance.


No, I'm not OVER estimating it. The 0.7 cents is correct for maintenance associated with mileage. Maintenance associated with car age is not attributable to Uber.



> Yeah. Let me know how that works out when you need a new transmission.


I will not need a transmission in the five years I expect to own the car.



> There's no magic delineation between driving for Uber and not driving for Uber. It's the same damn car. The wear and tear on a car is cumulative, not discrete.


Its the same car I own anyways, that would depreciate over time anyways, and would need certain maintenance anyways.

Only the increase in depreciation and maintenance are attributable to Uber, not all of it.



> You're $.07 per mile for maintenance is assuming maintenance is a fixed yearly cost, when it isn't


It's like I'm talking to a first grader.

There is nothing fixed about a per mile cost. That's what the words "per mile" means



> My projections are based on accrual accounting methods and amortization. Business accounting 101. Standard practice for a business where the core depends on a high expense, high depreciation asset. You don't need to have an MBA to figure this out.


The asset in question is already owned and already depreciating. Only the increase is attributable to the business.


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## Euius (May 19, 2016)

InertUber said:


> Me, I'd rather have my source income be more straightforward.


What you prefer is irrelevant. Just the facts matter


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

Euius said:


> It's like I'm talking to a first grader.


You're the one who seems to think you have two magically separate vehicles when you have just one car. That's "first grader" thinking. The wear and tear on your vehicle is the wear and tear on your vehicle, regardless of whether you're driving some random stranger across town or you're driving yourself to the grocery store. The only delineation here is what you can deduct and what you can't, which has absolutely nothing to do with your physical vehicle.

MTBF numbers follow an exponential curve with time and usage. Your car costs more to maintain the longer you own it and the more you drive it. Again, it doesn't matter if your driving it personal reasons or driving for Uber. Those costs still accumulate.

The average cost per mile is based on national statistics. The average person doesn't own their car outright. Others lease their cars instead of buying them. The monthly payments and finance charges contribute to the per mile cost figures I cite. Depreciation factors in. Maintenance and repairs factor in. There are a whole host of factors that are used to compute the cost per mile. The various sites that post such numbers describe their methodology for arriving at that number. Since they actually account for the exponential increase in maintenance over time, their numbers are relatively safe to use for projecting future income.

You clearly don't think their methodology is correct. That's fine. But I'm certainly going to take the auto industries numbers over yours.



Euius said:


> There is nothing fixed about a per mile cost. That's what the words "per mile" means


Cost per mile is given as a fixed number, not a function, and therefore it is a "fixed cost". What's important is how that number is determined. The methods used by KBB and others uses averages of exponential curves to produce the most accurate single number to represent costs per mile for the average driver. You do not. You have a ridiculously low cost per mile that fails to take into account accumulated wear and tear and allocate for the eventual future expenses.



Euius said:


> The asset in question is already owned and already depreciating. Only the increase is attributable to the business.


The asset is depreciating faster and wearing out faster due to heavier use. That's increasing overall future costs, period.


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## Lance A (Aug 13, 2016)

Xylphan said:


> In a normal distribution (which is what I am generously assuming is the case for Uber drivers), the mean, median, and mode are all equal.


Hey question for you. I've thinking about how to dispel the idea of using the "average" vehicle costs in personal calculations and your past comment just hit me.

For average to make sense, a normal distribution is implied, but what does that mean? It means that most Uber drivers are driving vehicles that have vehicle costs equally distributed left and right of the average. Furthermore it implies equal likelihood of choosing vehicles to be close to the norm and that those choosing vehicles far outside the norm to be choosing vehicles "either" left or right of the norm without bias.

In other words, you typical driver is in a vehicle that is indeed best represented by the "average" cost figure and that those who are in vehicles well away from the average are "equally likely" to be in a much higher or much lower vehicle types... eg. equally likely to choose a Prius or a Humvee...

One can make the argument, in absence of actual data, that the first criteria true, but the later criteria does not survive the sanity test.

Instead the distribution of "likely used uber vehicles" when compared to "vehicles used to generate the average cost figure" would likely Gamma in nature, with a skew towards lower costs.

So... theory is nothing without experiment... but this theory is supported nicely by the numerous drivers actually doing their own cost calculations and claiming that they are will under the $0.54 figure. Plus, it always nice when a theory survives a simple sanity test: I've been a rider in many Prius' but never in anything that looked like it got less than 25 mpg.

Thoughts?


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## Xylphan (Aug 26, 2016)

Lance A said:


> Hey question for you. I've thinking about how to dispel the idea of using the "average" vehicle costs in personal calculations and your past comment just hit me.
> 
> For average to make sense, a normal distribution is implied, but what does that mean? It means that most Uber drivers are driving vehicles that have vehicle costs equally distributed left and right of the average. Furthermore it implies equal likelihood of choosing vehicles to be close to the norm and that those choosing vehicles far outside the norm to be choosing vehicles "either" left or right of the norm without bias.
> 
> ...


Not exactly. While there may be a correlation between vehicle choice and average cost, you cant' establish the relationship strictly off the average. The average by definition losses such details. You'd need more information about the characteristics of the distribution.

Furthermore, the average cost is more like an "average of averages" as each vehicles costs have their own distribution as well. 

Then of course, there's the assumption that we are talking about a normal distribution. Common sense would indicate that costs would follow a normal distribution, but it may actually be more of a skew normal, bi-modal, or multi-modal. I don't have access to the raw data so I can't say one way or the other.



Lance A said:


> Instead the distribution of "likely used uber vehicles" when compared to "vehicles used to generate the average cost figure" would likely Gamma in nature, with a skew towards lower costs.


Have to be careful about assumptions. We'd need to know more about the characteristics of the Uber driving population vs. the "normal" population. If we assume most drivers are "casual" and use their own vehicles, then there wouldn't be much deviation between the populations. But if there's a larger group of drivers who actually go out and get low cost vehicles specifically for Uber, then that will skew the distribution.

The problem here is we don't have access to such data. Uber could (and probably does) have analytics that could be used to construct such a data set since the info on driver habits and vehicle types. It would be pretty interesting we could get our hands on that, but I don't see that as likely.



Lance A said:


> So... theory is nothing without experiment... but this theory is supported nicely by the numerous drivers actually doing their own cost calculations and claiming that they are will under the $0.54 figure. Plus, it always nice when a theory survives a simple sanity test: I've been a rider in many Prius' but never in anything that looked like it got less than 25 mpg.
> 
> Thoughts?


Well this is all based on assumptions with limited data. The normal distribution is likely the worse case scenario, since I doubt people are driving around in H3's for UberX. It might be the case that it's skewed to the low end, and intuitively that makes sense, but without the actual data I'm leery of potentially low-balling costs for a business projection.

But to each their own.


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