# Prius, Leaf and Tesla Drivers . . .



## wn100804 (Jun 9, 2019)




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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

https://fee.org/articles/electric-c...W1gEABXZWbTiOojchy7rtA5BmR0hdolAaAq_jEALw_wcB
I like electric cars, but my Hybrid MKZ might just be even greener than a Tesla ?


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## theinca (Mar 18, 2019)

I was driving a leaf for rideshare but my motives were not altruistic. There is a huge cost saving of operating an electric car vs a gas car for rideshare. There are no oil changes, no air filter to replace, brake pads last much longer due to regenerative braking and charging a car is much cheaper than paying for gas.


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## 2kwik4u (Aug 27, 2019)

UberLaLa said:


> https://fee.org/articles/electric-c...W1gEABXZWbTiOojchy7rtA5BmR0hdolAaAq_jEALw_wcB
> I like electric cars, but my Hybrid MKZ might just be even greener than a Tesla ?


That article negates a whole slew of manufacturing emission for internals combustion engines (like the energy source for the casting plants that melt the iron for the engine blocks). It also negates any emissions created in the distribution of gasoline from the refinery to the pump.

The equations are simple, but gathering the data is not. I've yet to see a fair and equitable comparison between internal combustion and electric vehicles that addresses all aspects of carbon footprint associated with each. It's probably out there, I just haven't seen it.

Overall, the biggest reduction in emissions is the overall effeciency. If you look at total power used to travel a given distance. Electric motors are capable of getting around 50-60% of the energy in storage (electricity in a batter pack) put to the ground. Internal combustion engines will only get about 20-25% of the energy in storage (chemical energy in a fuel tank) put to the ground. Regardless of where the energy is coming from, they are more efficient in that regard......and that's a good thing.


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

https://www.independent.co.uk/envir...ging-to-planet-than-co2-from-cars-427843.html
https://animals.howstuffworks.com/mammals/methane-cow.htm


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

Wildfires Emit Huge Amounts of CO2

*How do CO2 emissions from forest fires compare to those from fossil fuels?*


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## 2kwik4u (Aug 27, 2019)

Both of those are not "root source" issues.

Cows aren't producing methane from nowhere. Same with forest fires. They are releasing previously contained gasses within the system, just moving them around from air, to grass, to trees, to air, etc. Fossil Fuel burning is introducing NEW CO2 into the system. Poorly drawn system boundaries are leading people down the wrong paths here.


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

2kwik4u said:


> Both of those are not "root source" issues.
> 
> Cows aren't producing methane from nowhere. Same with forest fires. They are releasing previously contained gasses within the system, just moving them around from air, to grass, to trees, to air, etc. Fossil Fuel burning is introducing NEW CO2 into the system. Poorly drawn system boundaries are leading people down the wrong paths here.


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## TPAMB (Feb 13, 2019)

I'll pass on electric. For me, electric makes no economical sense, green aside. The similar Tesla X is $40,000.00 more on the used market than my German Luxury SUV. That buys a lot of gas, a lot! Also, service on Teslas sucks and if your Tesla is damaged in an accident, it has a near 100% chance of being totaled by your insurer as Tesla will not sell parts to outside repair facilities and their own authorized body shops are backed up for months!


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## Sal29 (Jul 27, 2014)

Liberals are working toward this in every home while do nothing conservatives only complain.


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## 2kwik4u (Aug 27, 2019)

Sal29 said:


> Liberals are working toward this in every home while do nothing conservatives only complain.


i thought that first picture was BS.......quick googling and math says it might not be far off.

Average solar panel does 15watts per square foot (0.15kW). Prius is 180in x 69in in size. Add 3ft to each dimension for room to park and you ahve something that is 18ft x 8.75ft, which is 157.5 sqft. So that panel array would generate about 2.3kW, and would recharge the Prius 7kWh battery in just about 3hrs.

Learn something new every day.


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## VanGuy (Feb 15, 2019)

2kwik4u said:


> i thought that first picture was BS.......quick googling and math says it might not be far off.
> 
> Average solar panel does 15watts per square foot (0.15kW). Prius is 180in x 69in in size. Add 3ft to each dimension for room to park and you ahve something that is 18ft x 8.75ft, which is 157.5 sqft. So that panel array would generate about 2.3kW, and would recharge the Prius 7kWh battery in just about 3hrs.
> 
> Learn something new every day.


So it would do my van in 7 hours. That would be awesome. Except I'm only home at night. 

At least we focus on Hydro here which isn't perfect but pretty green considering the current options.


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## 2kwik4u (Aug 27, 2019)

VanGuy said:


> So it would do my van in 7 hours. That would be awesome. Except I'm only home at night. :frown:
> 
> At least we focus on Hydro here which isn't perfect but pretty green considering the current options.


Those numbers I quoted are "quick google" results......I'm sure it could go +/- 15-20% easily depending on location, weather, panel quality, etc.


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## losiglow (Dec 4, 2018)

This same bullcrap. Ok - the electricity (largely) comes from fossil fuel. The lithium is very eco "unfriendly" to mine and purify and the batteries are caustic to manufacture and dispose of.

But --- if the excuse that new technologies are dirty to develop and manufacture was used for every new innovation, we'd still be living in the stone age. New innovations require an investment from "dirty" manufacturing practices because, well, that's what we currently have!

And besides, the calculations have been done from more than one source and it's pretty cut and dried that internal combustion vehicles are far dirtier than electric vehicles - taking into account efficiency, fuel sources and manufacturing techniques.

To add, I'm not an EV lover. I love my 25MPG vehicle and will likely purchase another after this. I'm also not a tree hugger by any reach of the imagination. Politically, I'm a right leaning Independent. I find most liberals to be a complete joke. AOC's "Green New Deal" for example is the laughing stock of politics in the last several decades. But my career and education are in science and tech and there's no way you can tell me, from a math or technology based evaluation, that electric cars are a bad idea because they're "dirtier" than fossil fueled vehicles.

If you want the dorky math version:


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## 2kwik4u (Aug 27, 2019)

@losiglow Love Jason's videos. Such a great "explainer".


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## losiglow (Dec 4, 2018)

2kwik4u said:


> @losiglow Love Jason's videos. Such a great "explainer".


True. I'm a car guy and know the theory for the most part, so I tend to watch more of the hands-on videos from channels like Eric the Car Guy, Car Wizard and Ratchets and Wrenches. But if I want a more in depth explanation, EE is where it's at.


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## 2kwik4u (Aug 27, 2019)

losiglow said:


> True. I'm a car guy and know the theory for the most part, so I tend to watch more of the hands-on videos from channels like Eric the Car Guy, Car Wizard and Ratchets and Wrenches. But if I want a more in depth explanation, EE is where it's at.


I'm an R&D Engineer with a heavy mechanical background. I typically already know most of his answers, but like to see the method he uses to prove out the results. It's typically NOT the same way I would solve the problem, so it helps keep my eyes open to new solutions.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

2kwik4u said:


> That article negates a whole slew of manufacturing emission for internals combustion engines (like the energy source for the casting plants that melt the iron for the engine blocks). It also negates any emissions created in the distribution of gasoline from the refinery to the pump.


The environmental impact of casting metal is tiny compared to the environmental impact of making battery cells. Iron is an abundant resource and not really toxic. Many materials used in battery production are relatively rare and sourced from dangerous child labor, and are highly toxic.

I worked in a plant that makes batteries for electric cars. Breathing in that dust probably took years off of my life.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

wn100804 said:


> View attachment 366001


I am seriously considering a Kia Nitro. 2019. 20,000 miles. 51 m.p.g. 19 cubic feet luggage space.
100,000 mile warranty. Under $17,000.

Could also pick up beautiful 2017 ford fusion hybrid. 41 m.p.g. 43,000 miles for $12,700.00
But
12 cubic foot trunk ?
( less rear headroom than the kia also)( and has the JAT c.v. that PLAGUES NISSAN !)


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## peteyvavs (Nov 18, 2015)

wn100804 said:


> View attachment 366001


There are some big advantages to hybrids and electric cars. The amount of energy generated by coal powered plants to charge electric cars contributes far less pollution then internal combustion engines, hybrids get far better mileage which creates far less pollution.
I myself prefer a hybrid because of the self generating of electricity, whereas cars like the Leaf and Tesla are dependent on a limited number of charging stations. Also it takes too long to charge an electric car even with a rapid charger.
As for the Prius, I would recommend this car to anyone, now Toyota has a hybrid SUV (RAV) and various model cars like the Corolla and Camry.
From an economical point you can't go wrong with a Toyota hybrid. Toyota even produces a luxury car in hybrid, the Avalon.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Sal29 said:


> Liberals are working toward this in every home while do nothing conservatives only complain.


Who will PAY for one in EVERY HOME !?!?



Trafficat said:


> The environmental impact of casting metal is tiny compared to the environmental impact of making battery cells. Iron is an abundant resource and not really toxic. Many materials used in battery production are relatively rare and sourced from dangerous child labor, and are highly toxic.
> 
> I worked in a plant that makes batteries for electric cars. Breathing in that dust probably took years off of my life.


THATS WHY ILLEGALS HAVE YOUR JOB IN THE PLANT NOW.

NO ASBESTOS STYLE LAWSUITS 20 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

I love a hybrid that also draws electricity from a plug. I have only just owned a hybrid that doesn't but the advantage to a plug in is the nearly deceptive ease by which you can use gas if you must but avoid it as much as possible. Some little known facts about a hybrid is that it isn't just braking that recharges the battery. The engine also does. When you add a plug-in, you start with more electricity. You can use certain gear strategies to recharge that electricity without plugging in every time. The availability of gas is a way to get around if you do not generate enough electricity.


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## Sal29 (Jul 27, 2014)

tohunt4me said:


> Who will PAY for one in EVERY HOME !?!?
> 
> 
> THATS WHY ILLEGALS HAVE YOUR JOB IN THE PLANT NOW.
> ...


There are going to be many tax credits, subsidies, and reduction in prices in the future because of mass production, pooling of resources, etc.
https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/solar-rebates-incentives/ca/


LADryver said:


> I love a hybrid that also draws electricity from a plug. I have only just owned a hybrid that doesn't but the advantage to a plug in is the nearly deceptive ease by which you can use gas if you must but avoid it as much as possible. Some little known facts about a hybrid is that it isn't just braking that recharges the battery. The engine also does. When you add a plug-in, you start with more electricity. You can use certain gear strategies to recharge that electricity without plugging in every time. The availability of gas is a way to get around if you do not generate enough electricity.


Plug in Hybrids like the Prius Prime are a perfect candidate to be charged by solar panel car ports.
The Solar Panels will pay for themselves because you're basically driving 25 miles per charge without spending a penny on gasoline or on your electric bill. Many people have short commutes and rarely drive more than 10 miles one way.
These people can use a car like a Prius Prime with minuscule yearly gasoline usage.
It's especially a fantastic option for people who live in sunny states like California, Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico.
Full EVs will probably need a lot more solar panels and a huge battery storage device to able to fully charge using solar panels, but in the future with advancements in solar panel and battery backup storage technology, this will be more feasible.


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## Chicago-uber (Jun 18, 2014)

I love my Tesla :biggrin:


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

UberLaLa said:


>


This one is better, IMHO.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

Sal29 said:


> There are going to be many tax credits, subsidies, and reduction in prices in the future because of mass production, pooling of resources, etc.
> https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/solar-rebates-incentives/ca/
> 
> Plug in Hybrids like the Prius Prime are a perfect candidate to be charged by solar panel car ports.
> ...


Actually the best car for solar is the full EV. A hybrid is capable of regenerating the electricity on its own, given a smidgen of driver know-how. The advantage of plug in is that it has a built-in higher EV capacity than the standard hybrid. Therefore more range on EV. The value of gas, in one example, in an EV car is when the energy is unavoidably depleted. Upward hills are an example. Regeneration takes place on down slope but the upwards trek drains very quickly. And here is fun: How do you jump start a hybrid? Wait. It will do it by itself in 45 minutes.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

2kwik4u said:


> i thought that first picture was BS.......quick googling and math says it might not be far off.
> 
> Average solar panel does 15watts per square foot (0.15kW). Prius is 180in x 69in in size. Add 3ft to each dimension for room to park and you ahve something that is 18ft x 8.75ft, which is 157.5 sqft. So that panel array would generate about 2.3kW, and would recharge the Prius 7kWh battery in just about 3hrs.
> 
> Learn something new every day.


Toyota is experimenting putting the panels directly on the car, basically charging it throughout the day.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po.../toyota-is-testing-a-new-solar-powered-prius/


Sal29 said:


> Liberals are working toward this in every home while do nothing conservatives only complain.


I bought an ARCO 30 watt solar panel for the ranch in around 1987 for 325 dollars (740 in todays dollars). A similar watt panel today costs around 80 bux.

We only used it to power our radio and occasionally a light bulb since we rarely stayed there overnight.That panel recently shorted out and has to be replaced.

I'm currently looking to buy a system similar to this one for the Prius so I can power the house and also install a solar water pump for irrigation.



Sal29 said:


> There are going to be many tax credits, subsidies, and reduction in prices in the future because of mass production, pooling of resources, etc.
> https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/solar-rebates-incentives/ca/
> 
> Plug in Hybrids like the Prius Prime are a perfect candidate to be charged by solar panel car ports.
> ...


Plugging directly in to the car battery pack is more efficient.

Going from solar panels to a storage system loses about 25% efficiency (or it used to, might be more efficient today).

It is always better to power direct from solar panel to electric motor without going through battery.

There are kits out there that turn a Prius in to a back up generator for a home.


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