# Uber Says It Pays For Dead Miles



## brianboru (Nov 3, 2016)

I found this in the Uber Passenger Guide. Does anyone know what the policy is?

*Do riders pay tolls or surcharges? *
Additional charges may apply to your trip, including tolls, surcharges, or other fees. These charges are automatically added to your trip fare.

Please note that charges added to your trip fare may not exactly match the amount paid by your driver. For example, you may be assessed a surcharge when a driver pays a toll when returning to your city of origin, or for pickups or drop-offs at an airport.

You may also be charged the standard amount of a toll when the driver is entitled to a discount because they are in an HOV lane, driving an electric vehicle, or using a transponder. In some cities, tolls and surcharges reflect an estimate. This is due to fluctuations in the amount actually paid.  You may also pay an additional charge to your driver for other costs or inconveniences, such as a parking fee to enter a venue or a long return trip after arrival at your final destination. 

Depending on the charge and location, these additional charges may be retained by your driver, paid by your driver to Uber, or passed through to the airport or other third parties.


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## PepeLePiu (Feb 3, 2017)

Looks like another way from Uber to divert their greediness and rider's anger towards the driver, I never saw any supplemental income from long trips and I done quite a few. They just pay us the base fare plus the minutes and surge if applicable.
The pax looks at us like we make so much more money than we actually do.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

I agree with Pepe, they either do not charge any fee for long return trips, or if they do, the driver does not see it.


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## 68350 (May 24, 2017)

I took a 62 mile trip north of Phoenix to the middle of nowhere, got no tip, and returned most of the way empty, no extra $$ received.

Please note that in the red text, it says you "*MAY*" also pay... it doesn't say you WILL.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

68350 said:


> I took a 62 mile trip north of Phoenix to the middle of nowhere, got no tip, and returned most of the way empty, no extra $$ received.
> 
> Please note that in the red text, it says you "*MAY*" also pay... it doesn't say you WILL.


Has it ever happened? Is it something that happens in just one test tube market somewhere?


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## 68350 (May 24, 2017)

No idea, but I'd bet it's never happened.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

It doesn't say they pay for dead miles. It says they may charge for dead miles. What Uber charges a pax is of no concern to a driver. People signed up to drive for Uber on a set time and distance scale only.


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## Cigars (Dec 8, 2016)

brianboru said:


> You may also pay an additional charge to your driver for other costs or inconveniences, such as a parking fee to enter a venue or a long return trip after arrival at your final destination.


This might be a "per market" item.
An example would be, for NJ drivers going to NYC, $20 is added. The toll can be $11 to $18 depending upon time of day, type of EZPass (an electronic payment system that discounts for electric cars). Even if the toll is $12.50, the NJ driver gets the $20 because they cannot pickup in NY and must return to NJ to become "active" again.

"People signed up to drive for Uber on a set time and distance scale only."
I disagree. Most of us signed up before May 22nd. Before then, our contract gave us a percent of the fare.
In February, Uber tried to create a 2 fare system.
It was not until Uber realized that its "2 fare" system (when the driver was told the fare was $15 and the passenger was told the fare was $20) was revealed to be fraud, that Uber changed the contract to the time and distance model (which now reveals the "broker" vs. "provider" claim of Uber to be fraud).

When we opened our app at the end of May and clicked "I Agree" to the contract addendum, then we became time and distance slaves allowing Uber to charge $100 and pay us $10. I am noticing Uber take almost 50% of some fares. I guess they have 150 in house lawyers that need their 1/4 million a year and comfortable offices in San Fran, and the way to get that is to compensate us suckers even less than they already do.


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## ubergirl182 (Jun 14, 2017)

ive never seen one on the many trips 60 or so miles outta the way


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## G Trip (Jun 20, 2017)

I've seen that clause and wondered about it too. I know some drivers who have negotiated cash (tips) on top of the Uber fees for one-way drives out of their market. I have done it successfullyonce myself. I wonder if that clause makes this permissible.

I'm going to contact Uber about this and find out


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

brianboru said:


> You may also pay an additional charge to your driver for other costs or inconveniences, such as a parking fee to enter a venue or a long return trip after arrival at your final destination.


Lol, yeah... that's a crock of shit. Almost as bad as "tips are included!".

I might try this though, and follow Uber's TOS for once. According to this, pax may pay us an additional charge for return trips. I have a card reader, so it'd be no problem.


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## yojimboguy (Mar 2, 2016)

Uber once told me (that is, a message from the local office) that they would be experimenting for the next several weeks with paying me extra to go pick up passengers that are far away. They only did this for one fare that I'm aware of, and it was a very small amount, like 5 bucks. They have never paid extra to return from a long distance away, and I never heard another thing from them about extra pay since that single fare.


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## Matty760 (Nov 9, 2015)

Cigars said:


> This might be a "per market" item.
> An example would be, for NJ drivers going to NYC, $20 is added. The toll can be $11 to $18 depending upon time of day, type of EZPass (an electronic payment system that discounts for electric cars). Even if the toll is $12.50, the NJ driver gets the $20 because they cannot pickup in NY and must return to NJ to become "active" again.
> 
> "People signed up to drive for Uber on a set time and distance scale only."
> ...


I disagree. Ive been driving for years and its always been based off Miles and Minutes for the drivers pay. Also Uber has always taken the booking fee and drivers have never seen that money so you can't calculate that as part of your money. But I'm sorry man, I've always been told and have seen that Im paid based off time and distance and nothing else.


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## brianboru (Nov 3, 2016)

The policy lets the driver negotiate a return payment to the service area. I found a post from a driver who explains that he is going out of the service area and has dead miles to return. He then texts the Pax a copy of the policy and asks them to reply with "yes" if they agree. He keeps the meter running until he returns to the service area. He has the reply text in case there is an issue. But there never has been an issue for him. It is a good idea. We should all do it.


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## Cigars (Dec 8, 2016)

Matty760 said:


> I disagree. Ive been driving for years and its always been based off Miles and Minutes for the drivers pay. Also Uber has always taken the booking fee and drivers have never seen that money so you can't calculate that as part of your money. But I'm sorry man, I've always been told and have seen that Im paid based off time and distance and nothing else.


I just provided you an example. Drivers are paid $20 for a NJ to NYC trip (on top of time and distance) when the toll is $11.50 (depending upon time of day).
So, your claim that there are not instances when drivers are paid based on time and distance and nothing else has just been proven false (and was proved false before you even made your claim, bizarrely you made the claim in response to me posting an instance when other compensation occurs).

As I said, this might be a per market item. But the above is an instance, when the driver is compensated more than time and distance.
Do you deny it?

My understanding is also that drivers with "green EZpass" get paid the full toll price even though their EZpass pays a discounted rate.


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## brianboru (Nov 3, 2016)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> It doesn't say they pay for dead miles. It says they may charge for dead miles. What Uber charges a pax is of no concern to a driver. People signed up to drive for Uber on a set time and distance scale only.


I have been looking into this and you are right that Uber doesn't pay for dead miles. But the policy clearly enables the driver to negotiate a charge with the Pax. Showing the policy to the Pax is a good way to open up the negotiations.


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## yojimboguy (Mar 2, 2016)

You have very poor reading comprehension. It doesn't allow the driver to do any such thing.


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## brianboru (Nov 3, 2016)

yojimboguy said:


> You have very poor reading comprehension. It doesn't allow the driver to do any such thing.


Then tell us what the policy is referring to when it says *"You may also pay an additional charge to your driver for other costs or inconveniences, such as a parking fee to enter a venue or a long return trip after arrival at your final destination."*


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

brianboru said:


> I have been looking into this and you are right that Uber doesn't pay for dead miles. But the policy clearly enables the driver to negotiate a charge with the Pax. Showing the policy to the Pax is a good way to open up the negotiations.


Trust me, the last thing a pax wants to do is haggle over pennies with an Uber driver. They'll press cancel and order another car. Then they'll make some false report about you to Uber.


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## yojimboguy (Mar 2, 2016)

What the TOS between Uber and the pax is of of no relevance whatsoever. Show us the portion that allows this in the TOS between uber and the DRIVERS.



SEAL Team 5 said:


> Trust me, the last thing a pax wants to do is haggle over pennies with an Uber driver. They'll press cancel and order another car. Then they'll make some false report about you to Uber.


I generally agree with this, except it may not be "pennies". A ride from Madison down to Milwaukee is about $100, one way.


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## brianboru (Nov 3, 2016)

yojimboguy said:


> What the TOS between Uber and the pax is of of no relevance whatsoever. Show us the portion that allows this in the TOS between uber and the DRIVERS.


You are the one who is claiming that the policy doesn't enable us to negotiate with the Pax so *you* should explain what the policy means or provide TOS language that prohibits it. I am quite certain that you cannot provide an alternate interpretation or a TOS prohibition.


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## yojimboguy (Mar 2, 2016)

You don't get it. Whatever is in the agreement between Uber and pax in no way authorizes you the DRIVER to do anything. You are not part of that agreement.


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## brianboru (Nov 3, 2016)

yojimboguy said:


> You don't get it. Whatever is in the agreement between Uber and pax in no way authorizes you the DRIVER to do anything. You are not part of that agreement.


The Uber User Guide is not an agreement. It is a description of the services offered by Uber and its' partners (drivers). It describes the services we offer. And it tells the Pax that they "may also pay an additional charge to your driver for other costs or inconveniences, such as a parking fee to enter a venue or a long return trip after arrival at your final destination."

Like I said, provide an alternate interpretation or a TOS prohibition.


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## yojimboguy (Mar 2, 2016)

Section 4.1 of the Uber contract with drivers:

"You are entitled to charge a fare for each instance of completed Transportation Services provided to a User that are obtained via the Uber Services ("Fare"), where such Fare is calculated based upon a base fare amount plus distance (as determined by Company using location-based services enabled through the Device) and/or time amounts, as detailed at www.uber.com/cities for the applicable Territory ("Fare Calculation"). You acknowledge and agree that the *Fare provided under the Fare Calculation is the only payment you will receive in connection with the provision of Transportation Services*, and that neither the Fare nor the Fare Calculation includes any gratuity. ...

...I n addition, the parties acknowledge and agree that as between you and Company, the Fare is a recommended amount, and the primary purpose of the pre-arranged Fare is to act as the default amount in the event you do not negotiate a different amount. You shall always have the right to: (i) charge a fare that is *less* than the pre-arranged Fare; or (ii) negotiate, at your request, a Fare that is *lower* than the prearranged Fare (each of (i) and (ii) herein, a "Negotiated Fare"). Company shall consider all such requests from you in good faith. Company agrees to remit, or cause to be remitted, to you on at least a weekly basis: (a) the Fare less the applicable Service Fee; (b) the Tolls; and (c) depending on the region, certain taxes and ancillary fees. If you have separately agreed that other amounts may be *deducted* from the Fare prior to remittance to you (e.g., vehicle financing payments, lease payments, mobile device usage charges, etc.), the order of any such deductions from the Fare shall be determined exclusively by Company (as between you and Company)."

Font bolding and colors were added by me.


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## tootsie (Sep 12, 2015)

brianboru said:


> I found this in the Uber Passenger Guide. Does anyone know what the policy is?
> 
> *Do riders pay tolls or surcharges? *
> Additional charges may apply to your trip, including tolls, surcharges, or other fees. These charges are automatically added to your trip fare.
> ...





brianboru said:


> I found this in the Uber Passenger Guide. Does anyone know what the policy is?
> 
> *Do riders pay tolls or surcharges? *
> Additional charges may apply to your trip, including tolls, surcharges, or other fees. These charges are automatically added to your trip fare.
> ...


I wish I had this when I made that 6 hours total trip. Thanks for posting!


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## yojimboguy (Mar 2, 2016)

I must apologize, because Section 4 of the contract was updated and replaced in May of this year. Below is section 4.1 as revised, but there's little substantial change of meaning. Again, font and color changes are mine.

"4.1 Fares. You are entitled to a Fare for each Ride that you provide, where “Fare” is a base fare amount plus actual distance and/or time amounts (or as required by applicable law), provided that distance and/or time amounts may be predetermined in certain situations, such as for flat rate and minimum fare trips, or estimated where GPS information for that trip is unavailable. Fares vary by region (detailed at partners.uber.com), may vary depending on local supply and demand, and may also be adjusted in our discretion based on local market factors. We will provide you with notice of any change to any base fare or applicable distance and/or time amounts, as well as flat rate and minimum trip fares, and by continuing to use the Uber Services, you are deemed to accept these changes. The Fare does not include gratuity. Additionally, even though we often separately advertise and market the Uber Services and other products and services generally (including discounts or promotions to Riders that reduce what they ultimately pay for a Ride), this does not entitle you to any additional payment.

Unless we indicate to you otherwise, for each Ride, the Rider will pay an amount that includes the Fare, applicable Tolls, applicable fees retained by us, and applicable taxes and surcharges, as well as the Service Fee described in Paragraph 4.4 below (collectively, the “Rider Payment”). You appoint us as your disclosed limited payment collection agent solely to accept the Rider Payment from Riders via the Uber Services’ payment processing functionality, and the Rider Payment to us (acting as your agent) is treated the same as if that Rider paid you directly for that Ride. The Rider Payment is the only payment that will be made to you by a Rider for a particular Ride. By accepting a Ride, you indicate your agreement to charge the Rider Payment at the amount recommended by us as your agent. The Fare portion of the Rider Payment shall operate as a default, but following completion of a Ride you are entitled to request to charge a lower Fare, and we will consider these requests in good faith. Your Fares and applicable Tolls will be remitted to you on at least a weekly basis. If you have agreed to any other amounts being deducted from your Fares with any party (such as vehicle financing or lease payments, or mobile device charges), those amounts will be deducted before remittance to you, and we may determine the order of these other deductions if allowed by law.

If reasonable, we may adjust a particular Rider Payment (including the Fare portion) for reasons such as inefficient routes, failure to properly end a Ride or technical error on our Services. In more serious situations, such as fraud, charges for Rides that did not take place or Rider complaints, we may cancel or refund a Rider Payment entirely (including the Fare portion). If a Rider cancels their Ride prior to your arrival at the pick-up location, we may charge that Rider a cancellation fee on your behalf, and in this case the cancellation fee will be treated the same as a Rider Payment for completed Rides."


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## brendon292 (Aug 2, 2016)

Cigars said:


> This might be a "per market" item.


I seem to recall reading a while back that an Australian Uber driver requested compensation for a long distance empty ride back to his market and he was paid.


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## brianboru (Nov 3, 2016)

You are right that the TOS prohibits charging a higher "fare" than is determined by Uber. But a charge for return to the service area is not a "fare". A "fare" is the charge to transport the rider to their destination. A charge for return is an "other cost or inconvenience" that the driver accrues. It is a additional charge and is clearly described as such by the Uber User Guide. Are you saying that the language in the Uber User Guide regarding "long returns" is meaningless? If not, what does it refer to and why is it there?

From the Uber User Guide:

*Do riders pay tolls or surcharges? *
Additional charges may apply to your trip, including tolls, surcharges, or other fees. These charges are automatically added to your trip fare.

Please note that charges added to your trip fare may not exactly match the amount paid by your driver. For example, you may be assessed a surcharge when a driver pays a toll when returning to your city of origin, or for pickups or drop-offs at an airport.

You may also be charged the standard amount of a toll when the driver is entitled to a discount because they are in an HOV lane, driving an electric vehicle, or using a transponder. In some cities, tolls and surcharges reflect an estimate. This is due to fluctuations in the amount actually paid. You may also pay an additional charge to your driver for other costs or inconveniences, such as a parking fee to enter a venue or a long return trip after arrival at your final destination. 

Depending on the charge and location, these additional charges may be retained by your driver, paid by your driver to Uber, or passed through to the airport or other third parties.


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## yojimboguy (Mar 2, 2016)

Are you saying that some generic description in a "users guide" supersedes the explicit terms of a contract you signed with Uber?

Fare as defined by Uber:

"Fare" is a base fare amount plus actual distance and/or time amounts (or as required by applicable law), provided that distance
and/or time amounts may be predetermined in certain situations, such as for flat rate and minimum
fare trips, or estimated where GPS information for that trip is unavailable. ... 
*
Unless we indicate to you otherwise*, for each Ride, the Rider will pay an amount that includes theFare, applicable Tolls, applicable fees retained by us, and applicable taxes and surcharges, as well as
the Service Fee described in Paragraph 4.4 below (collectively, the "Rider Payment"). ...

The Rider Payment is the only payment that will be made to you by a Rider for a particular Ride. *By accepting a Ride, you
indicate your agreement to charge the Rider Payment at the amount recommended by us as your
agent."
*
*You have agreed to let Uber determine the total amount the rider pays*. Anything beyond that is a "gratuity". It is certainly not a fee or a charge that YOU determine. 
*
*


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## brianboru (Nov 3, 2016)

yojimboguy said:


> Are you saying that some generic description in a "users guide" supersedes the explicit terms of a contract you signed with Uber?


No, I am saying that the driver is free to negotiate a charge for returning to the service area as referenced in the Uber User Guide. The Pax may or may not agree.


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## yojimboguy (Mar 2, 2016)

Did you even read what I wrote? You have agreed to allow Uber to set the total payment. Your only authorized to negotiate a lower fare, not a higher one. That is explicitly spelled out in the terms of the contract between you and Uber.

I am done talking with you about this.


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## brianboru (Nov 3, 2016)

yojimboguy said:


> I am done talking with you about this.


Good.


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## Dream12 (Feb 25, 2016)

brianboru said:


> I found this in the Uber Passenger Guide. Does anyone know what the policy is?
> 
> *Do riders pay tolls or surcharges? *
> Additional charges may apply to your trip, including tolls, surcharges, or other fees. These charges are automatically added to your trip fare.
> ...


Lies...smh


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