# Chevy Volt Owners - Convince Me Your Car Is Not Pointless



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Since my last car was totalled I have been looking for a replacement. The idea of a plug-in hybrid seems, on the surface, to be a good idea. What with being able to do short trips without using gas, and all.

However, after reading a few reports on Chevrolet Volts in particular, it seems that they are, in fact, pointless. Car and Driver says that the electric range of the 2nd generation model ('16 - '19) during their tests is around 37 miles. The car's battery has a capacity of 18.4kWh. If I were to buy one and with the amount of monthly electricity used pushing me into the higher price tier, local utility PG&E would charge me $0.29600 per kWh. So, filling the battery assuming a charge efficiency of 95% would cost me 18.4 x .296 x (100/95) = $5.73. That's $5.73 to go 37 miles.

An old 3rd gen Prius averages 45mpg, and at the usual California non-coronavirus gas price of $3.25 those same 37 miles would cost $2.67. So the Volt owner pays nearly double the cost to drive those first 37 miles on all electric.

Car and Driver's review also showed that once the electricity in the battery runs out, the car returns 39mpg, 6 fewer than an old Prius. Given that the oldest of this model Volt still costs $15,000, I am wondering what is the point?


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Free charging stations?

Solar panels?

$.296 per kwh is California crazy.

Sillier yet is the Gen3 Prius plugins that were $4-5000 more in price, that only had an ~11 mile range on electric.


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Since my last car was totalled I have been looking for a replacement. The idea of a plug-in hybrid seems, on the surface, to be a good idea. What with being able to do short trips without using gas, and all.
> 
> However, after reading a few reports on Chevrolet Volts in particular, it seems that they are, in fact, pointless. Car and Driver says that the electric range of the 2nd generation model ('16 - '19) during their tests is around 37 miles. The car's battery has a capacity of 18.4kWh. If I were to buy one and with the amount of monthly electricity used pushing me into the higher price tier, local utility PG&E would charge me $0.29600 per kWh. So, filling the battery assuming a charge efficiency of 95% would cost me 18.4 x .296 x (100/95) = $5.73. That's $5.73 to go 37 miles.
> 
> ...


I have a 2019 Mitsubishi Outlander and I average around 28 mpg around town and highway, these vehicle have a 4 cylinder and have power as well, I am really impressed with it, very comfortable also.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

The difference between 39 and 45 mpg is pretty negligible.

I’m not defending the Volt, but the difference in cost over time between those two numbers isn’t very high. If I had two cars with a 15% or less difference in fuel economy, I’d start to weigh the other expenses more highly. And realistically, because of the electric-only range which is presumably 100+ mpge for that brief stint, the difference in efficiency and cost is probably less than the 39 to 45 mpg gap suggests.

Minimal electric range for plug-in hybrids is designed for short- to medium-length commutes, which most non-rideshare drivers have. The longer driving distances that rideshare drivers tend to need will favor the car that is overall more efficient (most hybrids), rather than the one that is more efficient over 50 miles or fewer (the Volt or another plug-in hybrid).

Notably, the Prius Prime (plug-in hybrid variant of the Prius) also has an absurdly short electric-only range of 25 miles. But that’s about what most people need. Rideshare drivers aren’t most people, though.


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## Iann (Oct 17, 2017)

Check out the plug in Hyundai Ioniq or their regular Hybrid. 
I get average 54mpg in my hybrid and really like the car over the Prius.


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## IthurstwhenIP (Jan 12, 2018)

Love it! Rideshare rocket scientists roll

how about this. Buy a freakin Prius. Toyota plus fuel economy

then you can turn your genius to solving climate change, uncovering the mystery of Easter Island from your couch or room temp fusion.

seriously stop trying to justify doing the wrong thing...or just go buy the car you think looks better. Hint, you are driving Uber so you look lame even in a Porsche


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

waldowainthrop said:


> The difference between 39 and 45 mpg is pretty negligible.
> 
> I'm not defending the Volt, but the difference in cost over time between those two numbers isn't very high. If I had two cars with a 15% or less difference in fuel economy, I'd start to weigh the other expenses more highly. And realistically, because of the electric-only range which is presumably 100+ mpge for that brief stint, the difference in efficiency and cost is probably less than the 39 to 45 mpg gap suggests.
> 
> ...


I have a Ford Fusion Hybrid Plug-in which claims to have a 26 mile range on all electric but I see closer to a 30 mile range and once as high as 35 miles. I don't charge it at my house during the evening hours, I charge it at work for free so the cost factor for me works great!

Short rides in the city are the best for this car. Once you get on to the highway MPG is only 39-42. Still not bad overall.

I haven't done any rides since late Feb and I have not used any gas in 612 miles by charging at work for free


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

I haven't done much research, but I'm skeptical about hybrid and electric vehicles in general. A cursory search indicates the cheapest new EV with 5 seats in the US has an MSRP of around $30k. In contrast, I could get a compact gas/petrol car for around $12-15k. Which would leave $15-18k extra to spend on gas. At current (pre lockdown) prices in my area, $15k would get around 6000 gallons of gas, allowing me to drive such a vehicle 180,000 - 240,000 miles before breaking even on the extra cost of an electric car (not including charging costs).

Maybe I'm making some mistake, and I haven't researched things like used vehicle prices or maintenance costs etc. But I gravitate to skepticism when it comes to the fuel savings from hybrids or EVs, once vehicle prices are factored in. Obviously if someone wants one for environmental (or virtue signalling) reasons then that's a different story, but I'm talking from a financial standpoint.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Taxi2Uber said:


> Free charging stations?
> 
> Solar panels?
> 
> ...


Just wait till CARBON TAX !


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

reg barclay said:


> I haven't done much research, but I'm skeptical about hybrid and electric vehicles in general. A cursory search indicates the cheapest new EV with 5 seats in the US has an MSRP of around $30k. In contrast, I could get a compact gas/petrol car for around $12-15k. Which would leave $15-18k extra to spend on gas. At current (pre lockdown) prices in my area, $15k would get around 6000 gallons of gas, allowing me to drive such a vehicle 180,000 - 240,000 miles before breaking even on the extra cost of an electric car (not including charging costs).
> 
> Maybe I'm making some mistake, and I haven't researched things like used vehicle prices or maintenance costs etc. But I gravitate to skepticism when it comes to the fuel savings from hybrids or EVs, once vehicle prices are factored in. Obviously if someone wants one for environmental (or virtue signalling) reasons then that's a different story, but I'm talking from a financial standpoint.


Comparing new hybrid to new, a Prius vs. A Corolla is roughly 25k to 20k, a 5k difference. For the normal driver doing 100k miles over 7 years they probably won't make up the difference in cost, it's a feel good purchase. For an EV starting at 30k it would be hard to make up the difference even for a ride share driver, never mind the range anxiety. Comparing used prices to used is probably even worse.


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## 12345678 (Jan 8, 2019)

Check out the info on the Chevy Bolt not the Chevy volt. Bolt with a “B”. Much better mileage and it’s newer technology. 

I found on a Tesla you can go around 240 miles on a charge that costs $4


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

oh, just buy a Tesla and be happy with a nice ride.


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## June132017 (Jun 13, 2017)

Don't get a hybrid they aren't worth buying now. Who wants to replace $2,200 batteries?


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

June132017 said:


> Don't get a hybrid they aren't worth buying now. Who wants to replace $2,200 batteries?


Batteries are good for around 10 yrs on a Gen2/Gen3 Prius. (Don't know about Gen4)
Mine lasted 13 yrs. 
I then replaced it with a remanufactured one for $800 OTD.
Meanwhile, others that owned other car makes/models had to pay thousands for various repairs that I didn't have to, so I still came out ahead.


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## SWside (Oct 20, 2019)

I own a 2014 Volt. Bought new. Costs me $1 of electricity to drive 35-40 miles. Batteries are very solid, I haven't seen any drop in range yet. Over engineered for sure. I like the torque and the smoothness of EV ownership. Dream car for wife would probably be a Model Y.

There's a first gen Volt with over 400,000 miles still on its original battery. It ran into coolant issues recently but that was fixed.

Not trying to convince anyone about anything. You do you

Volt *IS* one of the best cars to buy to support our domestic economy. This professor does deep analysis of each model that goes way beyond parts content and assembly location. Amazing work.

https://www.american.edu/kogod/research/autoindex/


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

IthurstwhenIP said:


> Love it! Rideshare rocket scientists roll
> 
> how about this. Buy a freakin Prius. Toyota plus fuel economy
> 
> ...


It's just simple sixth grade math. It's pretty funny that you put basic elementary school math in the same league as rocket science! Lol, what a dumbass &#129315; You were probably one of those morons in school who always sat in the back row making animal noises and such.


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## IthurstwhenIP (Jan 12, 2018)

The Gift of Fish said:


> It's just simple sixth grade math. It's pretty funny that you put basic elementary school math in the same league as rocket science! Lol, what a dumbass &#129315; You were probably one of those morons in school who always sat in the back row making animal noises and such.


absolutely was @The Gift of Fish and that's why I drive for Uber today.We are two under achievers who both struggle at six grade math


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SWside said:


> I own a 2014 Volt. Bought new. Costs me $1 of electricity to drive 35-40 miles.


35-40 miles seems to be the all-electric range of the car on the 18.4kWh battery. If it costs you $1 to buy 18.4kWh then that gives a kWh cost of electricity of 5.4 cents. However, looking online it seems that the average electricity cost for Ohio is 12.3 cents, so it looks like your math may be a little off.

At 12.3 cents per kWh it would cost $2.26 to go those 35-40 miles, which is probably about the same cost as the one gallon of gas that the Volt would require to drive the same distance. So no real savings...



IthurstwhenIP said:


> absolutely was @The Gift of Fish and that's why I drive for Uber today.We are two under achievers who both struggle at six grade math


Speak for yourself, lol. I have no problem with basic math.



Taxi2Uber said:


> Free charging stations?
> 
> Solar panels?
> 
> ...


Solar would take days to charge a vehicle battery. I don't know if there are any free charging stations around here. I think they're going to a pay-per-kWh model.



12345678 said:


> I found on a Tesla you can go around 240 miles on a charge that costs $4


From what electricity supplier?


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

waldowainthrop said:


> The difference between 39 and 45 mpg is pretty negligible.


That is correct. I am considering an older Prius for $8,000 or a newer Volt for $15,000. For me personally, if I were to spend double on a car then I would want it to have some significant advantages. Maybe 20% better mileage, not 10% worse.


> If I had two cars with a 15% or less difference in fuel economy, I'd start to weigh the other expenses more highly.


Yes. Comparing depreciation and Chevrolet reliability vs Toyota reliability the balance is tipped in the Prius' favour.


> And realistically, because of the electric-only range which is presumably 100+ mpge for that brief stint, the difference in efficiency and cost is probably less than the 39 to 45 mpg gap suggests.


Mpge, like other EPA economy measurements, are way off. The EPA says that the Volt gets 106 Mpge on electric, or 31kWh / 100 miles. However, the results of Car and Driver's real world test show that the 18.4kWh battery takes the Volt 37 miles, which is a 49kWh /100 miles, which is a huge underestimation of the energy used by the car. The real world Mpge figure from the C/D data is 66Mpge. Of course, the EPA wants people to switch to electric vehicles, hence the bogus numbers they publish. In any case, Mpge does not take into account the cost of electricity - as shown above, at a California rate of 30 cents per kWh, running the car in gasoline mode is actually cheaper than running it on electricity, even though the Mpge number is higher than the Mpg number.


> Minimal electric range for plug-in hybrids is designed for short- to medium-length commutes, which most non-rideshare drivers have. The longer driving distances that rideshare drivers tend to need will favor the car that is overall more efficient (most hybrids), rather than the one that is more efficient over 50 miles or fewer (the Volt or another plug-in hybrid).


Correct, the plug-in hybrid allows gasoline-free short distance commutes. But, as the analysis shows, running these vehicles on electric can cost more, or provide no savings over, regular hybrids. I can't see that any driver would ever recoup extra the cost of them over a regular hybrid.


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## SWside (Oct 20, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> 35-40 miles seems to be the all-electric range of the car on the 18.4kWh battery.


First - Incorrect battery size for 2014. I have a 16.5 kWh battery.

Second - You cannot use battery size for total energy per full charge because EV automakers lock out a portion of the battery. When you're on Empty you're not really at zero charge, and Full doesn't mean topped off. This is done for battery longevity. (Lithium batteries prefer to spend most of their time in the 40-80% range of theoretical charge.)
In my 2014, when my Volt switches from battery to generator, I've usually consumed 10.6 kWh so that's what it takes to charge it fully (plus a tiny bit due to charging losses).

Yes, I was using nice round numbers....

Last I checked electricity was around 11 cents plus taxes.

So to be more specific I'm around 10.6 x 13 = $1.37 per charge. Roughly.

That can get me as little as 25 miles under the worst of conditions (75mph at 10 degrees); or 50 miles under best of circumstances (smooth city driving at 65-75 degrees).

My final cost for the car brand new was about $19,000. That's what any compact car with heated leather, etc, would have run me. The quiet and torque is wonderful, and the electricity is 100% "home grown".

To be clear this car is NOT used to drive for Uber etc. I was merely sharing Volt reliability and cost data, not suggesting it's a good RS vehicle. I would be more apt to use it for delivery though. Especially if I waited for my next ping at the local free charger. That helps drive down the cost further.

As a Volt owner, I don't feel the back seat of a Volt is a good place for RS passengers. It's on the small end of compact. I would use it for delivery however.

For RS, if there is free charging around me, I'd use a Bolt. New ones can be had for $25,000, so used ones should be under $20,000. 
If no free chargers in my area, probably go Prius or such


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Since my last car was totalled I have been looking for a replacement. The idea of a plug-in hybrid seems, on the surface, to be a good idea. What with being able to do short trips without using gas, and all.
> 
> However, after reading a few reports on Chevrolet Volts in particular, it seems that they are, in fact, pointless. Car and Driver says that the electric range of the 2nd generation model ('16 - '19) during their tests is around 37 miles. The car's battery has a capacity of 18.4kWh. If I were to buy one and with the amount of monthly electricity used pushing me into the higher price tier, local utility PG&E would charge me $0.29600 per kWh. So, filling the battery assuming a charge efficiency of 95% would cost me 18.4 x .296 x (100/95) = $5.73. That's $5.73 to go 37 miles.
> 
> ...


You always have to drive those first 37 miles, my car is always plugged in when I'm at home, so I always leave full.
Admittedly It makes more sense in Canada where gas is expensive ($4/Gallon before COVID-19 glut) and electricity is cheap (10c per kwh after taxes) and very green (hydro/nuclear).
As a part time driver, I typically do 80% of my driving on electrons, and plug in between rides. There are a lot of free EV charging stations in my city, and my house is very convenient to plug into. I only put 1 or 2 tanks of gas into the car from April-October. It's pretty economical. When I bought this car in 2016, the Provincial government had a $14000 rebate to buy EV, and a $750 rebate to install a home-EVSE charger. These are 'gov't cuts a cheque' rebates, not tax incentives like in the USA. They literally mail you a $14000 cheque.

I wrote a whole article on this subject, covering things from all sides, and nothing much has changed then (even cheap COVID-19 Shutdown Petrol in Ontario Canada is way more $$/mile than electricity):
https://uberpeople.net/threads/this-is-how-an-electric-vehicle-can-work-for-rideshare.290805/
The car handles like a dream in winter snow (wait distribution from battery), and drives whisper quiet while on electrons (meaning lower stress, vibration, etc. suprisingly this matters quite a bit...more than you would think.) Also, the VOLT is a lot of fun to drive, lots of pick-up torque, and whatnot. The Prius (I owned one for 8 years) is more of a turtle-blob in terms of handling and acceleration.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SWside said:


> First - Incorrect battery size for 2014. I have a 16.5 kWh battery.


Incorrect objection. As stated in my post, the model referenced is the 2nd generation model ('16 - '19).


> Second - You cannot use battery size for total energy per full charge because EV automakers lock out a portion of the battery. When you're on Empty you're not really at zero charge, and Full doesn't mean topped off. This is done for battery longevity. (Lithium batteries prefer to spend most of their time in the 40-80% range of theoretical charge.)


No. Rated capacity for a battery is the usable capacity of the battery. This is so that different batteries from different manufacturers can be compared with each other regardless of the upper and lower cut-off voltages each manufacturer chooses.


> In my 2014, when my Volt switches from battery to generator, I've usually consumed 10.6 kWh so that's what it takes to charge it fully (plus a tiny bit due to charging losses).


Again, no. Energy into a battery does not equal energy out, unfortunately.


> Last I checked electricity was around 11 cents plus taxes.


Yes, electricity is a lot cheaper there than here.


> So to be more specific I'm around 10.6 x 13 = $1.37 per charge. Roughly.
> 
> 
> > As above, energy into a battery is greater than energy out. Let's split the difference between your 10.6 and the manufacturer's figure of 16.5 and call it 13.5, bringing your $1.37 cost up to $1.74. If we take your electric range of 25 miles worst case to best case of 50 miles and average it at 37 miles, that's $1.74 to go 37 miles. An old Prius getting 45 mpg at $2.50 per gallon would cost $2.05 to go 37 miles. I guess that's something at least. In California, though, that would turn into a loss.





Kurt Halfyard said:


> You always have to drive those first 37 miles, my car is always plugged in when I'm at home, so I always leave full.
> Admittedly It makes more sense in Canada where gas is expensive ($4/Gallon before COVID-19 glut) and electricity is cheap (10c per kwh after taxes) and very green (hydro/nuclear).
> As a part time driver, I typically do 80% of my driving on electrons, and plug in between rides. There are a lot of free EV charging stations in my city, and my house is very convenient to plug into. I only put 1 or 2 tanks of gas into the car from April-October. It's pretty economical. When I bought this car in 2016, the Provincial government had a $14000 rebate to buy EV, and a $750 rebate to install a home-EVSE charger. These are 'gov't cuts a cheque' rebates, not tax incentives like in the USA. They literally mail you a $14000 cheque.
> 
> ...


I liked my hybrid a lot when it ran on electric. Very smooth and quiet.

From what people have posted, Volts aren't a horrific idea at the the electricity prices they pay, but they're not a saving any significant money or any money at all considering all other expenses. For places like California, however, they are best avoided it seems.


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## SWside (Oct 20, 2019)

I was sharing my first gen statistics. Why would I reference a second gen in MY calculations?

I'm not going to debate with people who don't wish to become educated. I'll leave all of this data here and you can believe what you want. Clearly, for a second gen, the battery is 18.4kwh in design but 14.0 kWh usable. Study this:

https://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/microsites/product/Volt_2016/doc/VOLT_BATTERY.pdf


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I liked my hybrid a lot when it ran on electric. Very smooth and quiet.


Well, there is less maintenance (1 oil change per year) than a Prius.
Brake Pads last a lot longer than a Corolla (but about the same as a Prius, due to Regen Breaking in Hybrids being about the same).



The Gift of Fish said:


> Volts aren't a horrific idea at the the electricity prices they pay, but they're not a saving any significant money or any money at all considering all other expenses. For places like California, however, they are best avoided it seems.


Not sure what you are saying. There are electricity rebate programs in California for EV drivers with specific power companies. And isn't gas in California a lot more expensive than other states?

Really, i cannot put a price on the quality of the ride though, and for me EV makes all gasoline cars feel like yesterday (unles you like the engine growl and the gear changing vibrations in an automatic, or doing it yourself in a 'stick').


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## SWside (Oct 20, 2019)

The maximum oil change interval for a Volt, meaning one that is driven rarely on the gasoline generator, is 2 years. Per the owners manual, and also from personal experience. One oil change every 2 years. The computer monitors oil life, tracking time, engine time, temps, etc.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

SWside said:


> The maximum oil change interval for a Volt, meaning one that is driven rarely on the gasoline generator, is 2 years. Per the owners manual, and also from personal experience. One oil change every 2 years. The computer monitors oil life, tracking time, engine time, temps, etc.


Yes. I put enough miles on via ridehail that it amounts to one oil change per year. Mainly because I use far more gas in the colder Canadian winters, when the battery loses about 25% of range due to temperature, better-grip-winter-tires, and running the cabin heat.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SWside said:


> I was sharing my first gen statistics.


You said that I had given the "incorrect battery capacity for a 2014" model, when in fact I was referencing 2016-2019 models. I did not give the battery size at all for 2014, therefore I cannot have given either the correct or incorrect size for 2014. The word "incorrect" denotes error; however no error was made by me.


> Why would I reference a second gen in MY calculations?


You did,though. You referenced the figure I gave for the 2016-2019 model, saying that it was incorrect for 2014 models. I have no idea why you would reference a different model when stating YOUR calculations. They are two different models with different specs and data. &#129335;‍♂


> I'm not going to debate with people who don't wish to become educated. I'll leave all of this data here and you can believe what you want. Clearly, for a second gen, the battery is 18.4kwh in design but 14.0 kWh usable. Study this:
> 
> https://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/microsites/product/Volt_2016/doc/VOLT_BATTERY.pdf


Don't go all sensitive on me, lol. I am willing to be educated if there are better options out there, which is why I made this thread. Nobody has convinced me yet, though.



Kurt Halfyard said:


> Well, there is less maintenance (1 oil change per year) than a Prius.


It looks like Chevrolet says to change the engine oil every 7,500 miles. I changed my Camry Hybrid's oil every 5,000. I paid $13 for oil and $7 for the filter, so the extended mileage between changes would save me around 10 bucks per month.


> Not sure what you are saying. There are electricity rebate programs in California for EV drivers with specific power companies. And isn't gas in California a lot more expensive than other states?


PG&E offers a one-time $800 electricity rebate. I usually keep a car for three years, so this would work out to be worth around 8 bucks per week to me. Overall, though, it seems that electricity is around 2.5 times the price in CA compared with the midwest, while gas prices are around 1.5 times the price, hence the lower attractiveness of using electricity to power a car here compared with elsewhere.


> Really, i cannot put a price on the quality of the ride though, and for me EV makes all gasoline cars feel like yesterday (unles you like the engine growl and the gear changing vibrations in an automatic, or doing it yourself in a 'stick').


Agreed; if a 100% EV made economic sense for me then I would buy one tomorrow.



reg barclay said:


> I haven't done much research, but I'm skeptical about hybrid and electric vehicles in general. A cursory search indicates the cheapest new EV with 5 seats in the US has an MSRP of around $30k. In contrast, I could get a compact gas/petrol car for around $12-15k. Which would leave $15-18k extra to spend on gas. At current (pre lockdown) prices in my area, $15k would get around 6000 gallons of gas, allowing me to drive such a vehicle 180,000 - 240,000 miles before breaking even on the extra cost of an electric car (not including charging costs).
> 
> Maybe I'm making some mistake, and I haven't researched things like used vehicle prices or maintenance costs etc. But I gravitate to skepticism when it comes to the fuel savings from hybrids or EVs, once vehicle prices are factored in. Obviously if someone wants one for environmental (or virtue signalling) reasons then that's a different story, but I'm talking from a financial standpoint.


No, I don't think you're mistaken. A friend recently told me she wants a new Rav-4 and asked if she should get the hybrid. I looked at my rocket science textbooks and worked out that she would have to drive over 200,000 miles in order to just break even on the extra cost of the hybrid over the regular gas model. She's in a non-CARB state, so the battery would be under warranty for only around the first half of those miles. I told her that buying the hybrid would not, in my opinion, be worth it. I don't think that it's ever worth buying a new hybrid or EV over a similar gas engine vehicle at present, and given that you should never buy a new vehicle of any description for rideshare that's a double reason not to buy one IMO.

On the other hand, my last car was a Camry Hybrid that I bought with 222,000 miles on it. I ran it up to 347,000 miles and it was still going strong 3 years later when a texting driver totalled it. I paid $3,900 for the car, which is about what a similar regular gas-engined Camry would have cost. No repairs were required during the time I owned it. The expenditure on regular maintenance items (oil changes, tyres, wiper blades, brakes etc) was the same as a regular gas-engined car. Averaging 36mpg instead of the regular camry's 26mpg I saved around $4,000 in gas over the three years. It would have been closer to $8,000 in 3 years if I could have put up with driving a Prius. Definitely worth having.

Bottom line for me is that if you buy a Hybrid without paying a premium for it over the regular gas version then you're going to be cash positive and it's a smart move.



LetsBeSmart said:


> I have a 2019 Mitsubishi Outlander and I average around 28 mpg around town and highway, these vehicle have a 4 cylinder and have power as well, I am really impressed with it, very comfortable also.


I used to like Mitsubishi. I had a 1980 Colt. Great car!










They also made some great hot hatches in the 80s.



June132017 said:


> Don't get a hybrid they aren't worth buying now. Who wants to replace $2,200 batteries?


You can get batteries reconditioned for around $800. But yes, it's a dice roll. I bought my Camry Hybrid at 222,000 miles; the hybrid battery had been replaced at 120,000 miles by the previous owner. I kept expecting the battery to go out, but 250,000 miles rolled around and it was still fine, then 300,000 and then nearly 350,000. I have spoken to a few hybrid technicians and they say that it's time that kills the batteries, not so much mileage, especially time spent without using the car much.


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## VanGuy (Feb 15, 2019)

Love my plugin van. Currently around a 1/2 tank burned and about 1700KM so far on this tank. Obviously this is mostly after I quit ridehailing because of COVID but I think there is a little ride hailing on the top end of this tank. Also some Skip the Dishes and a few nights of InstaCart, but mostly going to my day job and back and groceries, picking up my daughter from the ex and so on. Occasionally I get to plugin at work but most is at home at $0.12Can/KW, which I think is around $0.09US.

But this really isn't a ridehailing vehicle. This is my vehicle I'd been using for ridehailing. I wish I'd gotten more XL rides out of it to make the extra gas burn a little more worth it but I was still averaging 32MPGe on every ridehailing shift as I reset at the beginning every time to see how I was doing. I think that would be closer to 40MPG but no way of really knowing without filling the tank before every shift as well which would be pointless. I really wish I could pick between MPGe and MPG on the onboard computer but it's not an option.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I used to like Mitsubishi. I had a 1980 Colt. Great car!
> 
> View attachment 453463


The number plate on that car is puzzling me a bit. IIRC British plates in the 70's and 80's ended with a letter for the year they were made (what we called M reg, V reg, etc). Around the 90's they started the alphabet letters again at the beginning of the plate. Today they have a different system. Is that one European or something?


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I used to like Mitsubishi. I had a 1980 Colt. Great car!
> 
> View attachment 453463
> 
> ...


My mom had a 1981 Dodge Colt... blue with a 4-speed manual and Twin-Stick!










Good little car but she went to the Toyota Camry darkside in 1983 and had nothing but Camry's until 2014.


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## SWside (Oct 20, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> You referenced the figure I gave for the 2016-2019 model, saying that it was incorrect for 2014 models. I have no idea why you would reference a different model when stating YOUR calculations. They are two different models with different specs and data. &#129335;‍♂


You really need to go reread the thread. I was sharing my actual experience for the past 5 years with my 2014. It gets 35-40 miles per charge on average. Right in line with the EPA stated 38 miles.

You took the 35-40 mile range and attributed it to 18.4 kWh of capacity for your calculations. Which is wrong. EPA range of a 2014 is 38 miles. EPA range on the 2016 / 18.4kwh model is 53 miles.

Please look at the PDF from Chevrolet. You can't take miles driven and divide by pack size. A second generation Volt cannot and will not ever use 18.4 kWh in a charge. There is a buffer at both ends of the battery spectrum. That's why a "usable" metric is published by most EV manufacturers. That's 14.0 kWh for second gen models.


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## VanGuy (Feb 15, 2019)

SWside said:


> Please look at the PDF from Chevrolet. You can't take miles driven and divide by pack size. A second generation Volt cannot and will not ever use 18.4 kWh in a charge. There is a buffer at both ends of the battery spectrum. That's why a "usable" metric is published by most EV manufacturers. That's 14.0 kWh for second gen models.


Yup, I have a 16KW battery on my van but on average it seems only 12 is usable according to the charger. Chrysler didn't publish the usable amount but 66-75% seems to be average depending on manufacturer.


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## SWside (Oct 20, 2019)

VanGuy said:


> Yup, I have a 16KW battery on my van but on average it seems only 12 is usable according to the charger. Chrysler didn't publish the usable amount but 66-75% seems to be average depending on manufacturer.


Thanks for sharing that data!

My 2014 Volt goes through 10.6kWh on a regular basis from "full" to "empty". Cold or hot, highway or city, hardly any difference. GM left a LOT of buffer on the first gen Volts to guarantee a very long pack life.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> It looks like Chevrolet says to change the engine oil every 7,500 miles. I changed my Camry Hybrid's oil every 5,000. I paid $13 for oil and $7 for the filter, so the extended mileage between changes would save me around 10 bucks per month.


You might be fundamentally misunderstanding this. It means 7500 miles on the GAS ENGINE. I've owned my car for 4 years, and I barely have 10,000 miles on the gas engine in four years. The bulk of my driving (even doing Ridehail part time) is on Electrons. It's not a Prius, so the gas engine never goes on, until the battery is empty.)

In reality, I put 40,000km (~25000 miles) on my car per year, where 85-90% of it is EV (so about 2500-3000 miles on the gas engine per year). Which translates into one oil change ever 14 months or so. The dealership gave me 3 oil changes for free when I bought the car (They are about US$55 each, synthetic oil, through the dealer) so I've really only paid for one since I have the car, and I have over 100,000miles on the car, with the only expenses being tires and 1 oil change. I have yet to do the breaks yet, but they are due shortly. You do save a lot on maintenence with the VOLT, more than the PRIUS or the COROLLA for sure.

Also, as per @SWside , I still get 98% of the drive-off-the-lot battery life, after 4 years and 100,000+ miles. Chevy put extra cells in the battery to both preserve the strain on 'fully charging the battery a lot,' as well as leaving some open replacement cells to preserve the consumer experience/expectation for the life of the car.



reg barclay said:


> I haven't done much research, but I'm skeptical about hybrid and electric vehicles in general. A cursory search indicates the cheapest new EV with 5 seats in the US has an MSRP of around $30k. In contrast, I could get a compact gas/petrol car for around $12-15k. Which would leave $15-18k extra to spend on gas. At current (pre lockdown) prices in my area, $15k would get around 6000 gallons of gas, allowing me to drive such a vehicle 180,000 - 240,000 miles before breaking even on the extra cost of an electric car (not including charging costs).
> 
> Maybe I'm making some mistake, and I haven't researched things like used vehicle prices or maintenance costs etc. But I gravitate to skepticism when it comes to the fuel savings from hybrids or EVs, once vehicle prices are factored in. Obviously if someone wants one for environmental (or virtue signalling) reasons then that's a different story, but I'm talking from a financial standpoint.


EV saves huge on Total Cost of Ownership. The more you drive the more you save. Hence, for ridesharing you save a lot on both fuel costs, and maintenance. If you already have solar, or have access to free charging at work (my case), then you save even more. Most people get hung up on sticker price, but after 7 years of 30,000miles per year driving, a Tesla Model 3 is a cheaper investment than a Honda Civic.


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## VanGuy (Feb 15, 2019)

Both dealers near me keep trying to put me on the gas maintenance schedule. I read my owners manual. I've read what's what online. I'll stick to my plugin hybrid maintenance schedule thanks since they'd have me doing my oil changes when the onboard computer says I still have 75% oil life remaining.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

VanGuy said:


> Both dealers near me keep trying to put me on the gas maintenance schedule. I read my owners manual. I've read what's what online. I'll stick to my plugin hybrid maintenance schedule thanks since they'd have me doing my oil changes when the onboard computer says I still have 75% oil life remaining.


I always get 'oil change' deals for my Leaf from the local Nissan Dealership. It's kind of nuts, considering Nissan Leaf is full EV and has no oil in it. 
Dealerships are slow to embrace change. Slower than most other businesses.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> You might be fundamentally misunderstanding this.


No, no misunderstanding. A typical 10 hour rideshare shift for me is 300 miles, with the first 50 being highway. I would be using the electric motor for the first 30-35 miles and then gas for the remaining 270. In my use case, there would be many oil changes. I do appreciate though that low-mileage per day users will not use the gas engine as much or at all.


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## VanGuy (Feb 15, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> No, no misunderstanding. A typical 10 hour rideshare shift for me is 300 miles, with the first 50 being highway. I would be using the electric motor for the first 30-35 miles and then gas for the remaining 270. In my use case, there would be many oil changes. I do appreciate though that low-mileage per day users will not use the gas engine as much or at all.


With mine if I go too far on electric only FORM will come on for a bit. Fuel Oil Refresh Mode. Keeps the gas from getting old in the tank and the oil from getting all funky, I forget what's really happening, but basically the oil needs to get good and hot for a while.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SWside said:


> You really need to go reread the thread. I was sharing my actual experience for the past 5 years with my 2014. It gets 35-40 miles per charge on average. Right in line with the EPA stated 38 miles.


Again, no. No need to re-read the thread. What you said was:


SWside said:


> First - Incorrect battery size for 2014. I have a 16.5 kWh battery.


You claimed that the I gave an incorrect battery capacity for the 2014 model. Again, I did not give any figure for a 2014 model, so I could not have been either correct or incorrect in relation to any 2014 figures - I was referencing a different car entirely. Which I did correctly.


> EPA range on the 2016 / 18.4kwh model is 53 miles.


Not according to real world tests. As we all know, the EPA often quotes all kinds of fantasy figures.



reg barclay said:


> The number plate on that car is puzzling me a bit. IIRC British plates in the 70's and 80's ended with a letter for the year they were made (what we called M reg, V reg, etc). Around the 90's they started the alphabet letters again at the beginning of the plate. Today they have a different system. Is that one European or something?


That one's Australian (they also have the steering wheel on the correct side of the car); New South Wales state.



VanGuy said:


> With mine if I go too far on electric only FORM will come on for a bit. Fuel Oil Refresh Mode. Keeps the gas from getting old in the tank and the oil from getting all funky, I forget what's really happening, but basically the oil needs to get good and hot for a while.


Makes sense. If an engine is not run the gas goes stale as does the oil.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> No, no misunderstanding. A typical 10 hour rideshare shift for me is 300 miles, with the first 50 being highway. I would be using the electric motor for the first 30-35 miles and then gas for the remaining 270. In my use case, there would be many oil changes. I do appreciate though that low-mileage per day users will not use the gas engine as much or at all.


You see, your first mistake is doing that much Ridehail....
I work my 'ride-hail' shifts around the battery, to minimize cost, and not burn my whole life doing UBER/LYFT. That's my strategy, it's worked out pretty well so far.


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## SWside (Oct 20, 2019)

“EPA quotes all kinds of fantasy figures”

Besides being a 5 year owner of a Volt, I’m an active member on Volt forums, Bolt forums, and Tesla forums. EV owners do average what the EPA says overall. They do worse in winter and at high speeds, and they exceed the rating in mild weather and city driving. My EPA sticker says 38. I have gotten as little as 25, and as high as 50. As an average the 38 is spot on. If you care to educate yourself the data is available.

I now understand some of your “math”. You attributed 35-40 miles to the 2016 model in your calculations, which is incorrect. It should be 53 miles. Anyone can pull numbers from thin air.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SWside said:


> I now understand some of your "math". You attributed 35-40 miles to the 2016 model in your calculations, which is incorrect. It should be 53 miles. Anyone can pull numbers from thin air.


No. Have a re-read of my post. As was clearly stated, the 37 mile range comes from a real world test performed by Car and Driver magazine.


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## SWside (Oct 20, 2019)

As far as gas and oil going stale, the Volt has two modes to deal with this.

First is Engine Maintenance Mode. If the engine hasn't run for 6 weeks, it will turn on for about 10 minutes until full operating temperature has been reached. This gets all the systems exercised. The car alerts you before turning the engine on and let's you defer for a day, in case, say you're only running 1 mile to pickup some milk and the engine won't have a chance to fully warm.

Second is Fuel Maintenance Mode. The Volt has a pressurized gas tank, not merely sealed. This reduces gasoline degradation to the point that engineers found it stable for one year. Hence, if you haven't put gas in the tank for one year, the Volt forces a burn. You'll run off the generator. It uses an algorithm to calculate average age of gas. It knows how much gas you add at each fill and calculates the average age. So if half of your gas is 6 months old and half is 12 months, you won't burn more gas for 3 more months.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15100805/2017-chevrolet-volt-premier-test-review/
"Following a full charge, we measured an EV range of 45 miles while cruising at 75 mph in Normal mode. With the battery topped off again, we logged 53 miles of electric range in suburban driving, again in Normal mode."


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SWside said:


> "Following a full charge, we measured an EV range of 45 miles while cruising at 75 mph in Normal mode. With the battery topped off again, we logged 53 miles of electric range in suburban driving, again in Normal mode."


Interesting. That test was of a 2017 model, while the one I referenced was a 2019 model. Looks like they're decreasing the range as model years progress, for some reason.


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## SWside (Oct 20, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Interesting. That test was of a 2017 model, while the one I referenced was a 2019 model. Looks like they're decreasing the range as model years progress, for some reason.


There's been no *actual* increase or decrease during the second gen cycle. I've subscribed to C&D for 25 years. It's an excellent magazine but some of their staff are lead foots. It is a performance oriented magazine after all, which I enjoy.

We'd need temperature data to analyze further. That is important for EVs.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

SWside said:


> "EPA quotes all kinds of fantasy figures"
> 
> Besides being a 5 year owner of a Volt, I'm an active member on Volt forums, Bolt forums, and Tesla forums. EV owners do average what the EPA says overall. They do worse in winter and at high speeds, and they exceed the rating in mild weather and city driving. My EPA sticker says 38. I have gotten as little as 25, and as high as 50. As an average the 38 is spot on. If you care to educate yourself the data is available.
> 
> I now understand some of your "math". You attributed 35-40 miles to the 2016 model in your calculations, which is incorrect. It should be 53 miles. Anyone can pull numbers from thin air.


On my Gen2 Volt, during the summer I get about 100km in relatively flat Toronto on a full charge. I get about 80km in the winter. 60-75km if there is snow on the roads.
I leave it to you to convert this to miles. But I'm getting pretty good numbers. One think I do like about Chevy is unlike most technology, they actually underpromise and over deliver. (The same is not as true for Nissan Leaf, which I still like, but Nissan quoted on the more optimistic side, and definitely, YMMV.)



SWside said:


> Besides being a 5 year owner of a Volt, I'm an active member on Volt forums, Bolt forums, and Tesla forums. EV owners do average what the EPA says overall.


I was a pretty regular contributor to the VOLT forums back in 2016-2017 when I first got my vehicle, and before the BOLT launched. Then there didn't appear to be much of a need/use to check in with them after nothing really went wrong with the car for so long. I see they are still active, even after GM has discontinued the vehicle manufacture. Is the forum mostly BOLT talk now, and lest VOLT?


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## Clothahump (Mar 31, 2018)

Look at a Nissan Rogue instead. Great gas mileage, reasonable price, comfortable and a pleasure to drive.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Clothahump said:


> Look at a Nissan Rogue instead. Great gas mileage, reasonable price, comfortable and a pleasure to drive.


I loathe that vehicle the worst. I had a rental a couple years ago to drive from Toronto to Syracuse. I couldn't WAIT to return the piece of shit. Bulky cockpit, sits too high. Not great on gas. I could go on. It's one of the highest selling SUVs in Canada, and it remains a complete mystery to me.

I know it is a lot more expensive, but the BOLT is a much better vehicle, and over its lifetime, would be much cheaper running on electrons, and with far lower maintenence cost. 
Sure Nissans are cheaper in terms of sticker-price, but in my experience, they require more maintenence/repairs. I say this as a 9 year owner of a Nissan Maxima. Good car. Lots of repairs.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies and input. The conclusion I have reached is that if I were to move to a place where I could get electricity for 10 or 11 cents per kWh then plug-in EV would be worth a closer look. At CA electricity prices, however, they're just not cost-effective for my own use case. Prius, here I come! (groan).


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Since my last car was totalled I have been looking for a replacement. The idea of a plug-in hybrid seems, on the surface, to be a good idea. What with being able to do short trips without using gas, and all.
> 
> However, after reading a few reports on Chevrolet Volts in particular, it seems that they are, in fact, pointless. Car and Driver says that the electric range of the 2nd generation model ('16 - '19) during their tests is around 37 miles. The car's battery has a capacity of 18.4kWh. If I were to buy one and with the amount of monthly electricity used pushing me into the higher price tier, local utility PG&E would charge me $0.29600 per kWh. So, filling the battery assuming a charge efficiency of 95% would cost me 18.4 x .296 x (100/95) = $5.73. That's $5.73 to go 37 miles.
> 
> ...


I work in the parking industry and when in 2015 I was looking I interviewed some Volt owners. Each said they love the car. The one person who explained it to me did a fairly good job of doing so. However when I got and drive my Prius I learned a few things. First, don't listen to anyone who only knows the drive experience of a gas car. They can not know the difference between fact or fiction. Second, take with a grain of salt any hybrid drivers advise. The reasons are these: The sticker and official statistics are based on EPA estimates. EPA estimators do not know how the car works. Most hybrid drivers do not know how the cars work. Not any of them. The reason why I can justify the Volt is because I can tell you how the car works. When you test drive a Volt you can see for yourself.

You have two modes, electric and "gas". Indeed as you say the statistic for the electric mode is 38 miles range on flat plain. There are three factors that turn this statistic into a memory not had. 1. Easing and releasing on the accelerator in motion. 2. Braking. 3. Going downhill. The statistic for miles range on both electric and "gas" is 380 miles. If you do nothing special your mileage is more than 38mpg. Consider it your starting point. It can go much higher. While driving you are engaging in regenerative power. The car recharges itself without plugging in. You can fully recharge the battery this way. Then you flip the car on and off (archaic but since you make stops no big deal) you reset to electric mode and are coasting quietly along then. My beloved demise Prius gave me mileage that no casual driver ever expected. No plugging in there. But my example is good anyway. An actual round trip to Las Vegas and back to Long Beach on one tank registered 67 miles to the gallon. If you can learn how to handle your new used Volt, challenge yourself if you would, to let the car do what it was made to do. You might love it too.



Kurt Halfyard said:


> I loathe that vehicle the worst. I had a rental a couple years ago to drive from Toronto to Syracuse. I couldn't WAIT to return the piece of shit. Bulky cockpit, sits too high. Not great on gas. I could go on. It's one of the highest selling SUVs in Canada, and it remains a complete mystery to me.
> 
> I know it is a lot more expensive, but the BOLT is a much better vehicle, and over its lifetime, would be much cheaper running on electrons, and with far lower maintenence cost.
> Sure Nissans are cheaper in terms of sticker-price, but in my experience, they require more maintenence/repairs. I say this as a 9 year owner of a Nissan Maxima. Good car. Lots of repairs.


Echo that. Repairs. I love the Rogue and have driven Versa. Poor miles compared to hybrids and many more repairs.



The Gift of Fish said:


> No. Have a re-read of my post. As was clearly stated, the 37 mile range comes from a real world test performed by Car and Driver magazine.
> 
> View attachment 453735


Many reviewers on C&D do not know how to operate the vehicle's unique characteristics.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

12345678 said:


> Check out the info on the Chevy Bolt not the Chevy volt. Bolt with a "B". Much better mileage and it's newer technology.


I lease a Bolt and it's been a wonderful experience. But it doesn't pay my rent/mortgage. I drive two days a week to pay for the car, and groceries for the week.

CORRECTION: Make that I _did_ drive, until China opened a giant can of whoop-ass Woohan on us.

--------------------------
BTW - GM just nixed the best deal I ever heard of for _renting_ a vehicle to drive Uber. The MAVEN service rented a Chevy Bolt with unlimited mileage, and gave you a card for FREE charging. Sound to good to be true? It was. That's why GM killed it.


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## Bork_Bork_Bork (May 20, 2019)

Fusion_LUser said:


> I have a Ford Fusion Hybrid Plug-in which claims to have a 26 mile range on all electric but I see closer to a 30 mile range and once as high as 35 miles. I don't charge it at my house during the evening hours, I charge it at work for free so the cost factor for me works great!
> 
> Short rides in the city are the best for this car. Once you get on to the highway MPG is only 39-42. Still not bad overall.
> 
> I haven't done any rides since late Feb and I have not used any gas in 612 miles by charging at work for free :smiles:


I had an 18 Energi Titanium, loved that car. Passed it along to my daughter when I got my new Tesla. Still like driving the Ford tho...


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## Clothahump (Mar 31, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I loathe that vehicle the worst. I had a rental a couple years ago to drive from Toronto to Syracuse. I couldn't WAIT to return the piece of shit. Bulky cockpit, sits too high. Not great on gas. I could go on. It's one of the highest selling SUVs in Canada, and it remains a complete mystery to me.


Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm on my fourth one and absolutely love them.


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

SWside said:


> There's been no *actual* increase or decrease during the second gen cycle. I've subscribed to C&D for 25 years. It's an excellent magazine but some of their staff are lead foots. It is a performance oriented magazine after all, which I enjoy.


You do have a point about mileage depending on drivers.... I'm a certified car guy.... all my life. Speed is great and I do a lot of off-road events each year in a truck with a huge V8 that will average 8-9MPG over 200-500 miles on a weekend! My first exp with a hybrid was in Japan with a Toyota Prius and I beat on that car for a few days like any true car nut would beat on a rental car. I still got 55MPG overall!

So when my wife convinced me to get a Hybrid for my daily I totally changed my driving habits when I get in my Fusion and I often see well above the estimated range for what Ford claims the Fusion can do on all electric (26 miles advertised I average 30 miles). My wife also loves cars but doesn't care about trying to get the max range so on the rare occasion she drives it I get range anxiety... Can't let that damn engine run!


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## June132017 (Jun 13, 2017)

"Just 39 MPG" I don't really know how much more you would want with a regular gas engine. I think 39MPG is a homerun once you have driven a SUV that gets 13-15MPG.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

June132017 said:


> "Just 39 MPG" I don't really know how much more you would want with a regular gas engine.


The name of the game for profit-maximiser drivers in terms of the required mpg is "as high as possible".
Newer hybrids average over 50mpg. However, for me it's about striking a balance between overall cost and comfort. I had a Prius C for a while and had to get rid of it - it was awful and I wouldn't have kept it even if it got 60mpg.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

June132017 said:


> "Just 39 MPG" I don't really know how much more you would want with a regular gas engine. I think 39MPG is a homerun once you have driven a SUV that gets 13-15MPG.


I get around 37mpg average in my VW Golf. If I could replace it with the same car but instead it got 50mpg, and it only cost a bit more up front, that would make sense for me. I wouldn't spend _a lot_ more on it, though. There are diminishing returns, but if all else is equal, high fuel savings is money in one's pocket, absent any other considerations.


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## Escoman (Jun 28, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Since my last car was totalled I have been looking for a replacement. The idea of a plug-in hybrid seems, on the surface, to be a good idea. What with being able to do short trips without using gas, and all.
> 
> However, after reading a few reports on Chevrolet Volts in particular, it seems that they are, in fact, pointless. Car and Driver says that the electric range of the 2nd generation model ('16 - '19) during their tests is around 37 miles. The car's battery has a capacity of 18.4kWh. If I were to buy one and with the amount of monthly electricity used pushing me into the higher price tier, local utility PG&E would charge me $0.29600 per kWh. So, filling the battery assuming a charge efficiency of 95% would cost me 18.4 x .296 x (100/95) = $5.73. That's $5.73 to go 37 miles.
> 
> ...


Call it by it's proper name the Obama mobile


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

SWside said:


> I own a 2014 Volt. Bought new. Costs me $1 of electricity to drive 35-40 miles. Batteries are very solid, I haven't seen any drop in range yet. Over engineered for sure. I like the torque and the smoothness of EV ownership. Dream car for wife would probably be a Model Y.
> 
> There's a first gen Volt with over 400,000 miles still on its original battery. It ran into coolant issues recently but that was fixed.
> 
> ...


True. Too bad most of the value added parts of the Volt are not made in the USA. The hybrid components are made in Korea, probably Samsung or LG.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> True. Too bad most of the value added parts of the Volt are not made in the USA. The hybrid components are made in Korea, probably Samsung or LG.


I think it's strange that Germany is one of the few developed nations that has retained much of its manufacturing base, yet many of the products they build (VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes) are poorly engineered and unreliable items that one would be nuts to buy unless backed by a solid warranty. That same low quality decimated US automakers. Maybe the Germans are better at marketing and cosmetic design. It's a mystery.


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## Ubervader (Mar 20, 2020)

reg barclay said:


> I haven't done much research, but I'm skeptical about hybrid and electric vehicles in general. A cursory search indicates the cheapest new EV with 5 seats in the US has an MSRP of around $30k. In contrast, I could get a compact gas/petrol car for around $12-15k. Which would leave $15-18k extra to spend on gas. At current (pre lockdown) prices in my area, $15k would get around 6000 gallons of gas, allowing me to drive such a vehicle 180,000 - 240,000 miles before breaking even on the extra cost of an electric car (not including charging costs).
> 
> Maybe I'm making some mistake, and I haven't researched things like used vehicle prices or maintenance costs etc. But I gravitate to skepticism when it comes to the fuel savings from hybrids or EVs, once vehicle prices are factored in. Obviously if someone wants one for environmental (or virtue signalling) reasons then that's a different story, but I'm talking from a financial standpoint.


Agree if you compare Camry Hybrid and Toyota Yaris or as a matter of fact Tesla 3 with Honda Jazz.
If you compare Tesla 3 and BMW 3 series than price is pretty similar and Tesla trumps over any BMW 3 series with cost per km and performance.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Ubervader said:


> Agree if you compare Camry Hybrid and Toyota Yaris or as a matter of fact Tesla 3 with Honda Jazz.
> If you compare Tesla 3 and BMW 3 series than price is pretty similar and Tesla trumps over any BMW 3 series with cost per km and performance.


The problem is that you really _should_ compare the Nissan Leaf and Toyota Prius Prime with other conventional economy cars. They are way more expensive new than other cars that do the exact same job with slightly less efficiency, including less complex hybrid designs and petrol-only cars that get 35+ mpg. And all of them are basic family/commuter cars so they don't offer anything significant that other cheap cars do not.

If you don't have a Tesla budget, the cost per mile is very much in favor of the conventional Toyota Prius, as well as boring non-hybrid cars like the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic, or even the Toyota Camry Hybrid. At least for most people.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> The problem is that you really _should_ compare the Nissan Leaf and Toyota Prius Prime with other conventional economy cars. They are way more expensive new than other cars that do the exact same job with slightly less efficiency, including less complex hybrid designs and petrol-only cars that get 35+ mpg. And all of them are basic family/commuter cars so they don't offer anything significant that other cheap cars do not.
> 
> If you don't have a Tesla budget, the cost per mile is very much in favor of the conventional Toyota Prius, as well as boring non-hybrid cars like the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic, or even the Toyota Camry Hybrid. At least for most people.


That's similar to my point.

AFAIK if I'm looking for new or nearly new, I could buy almost two base model (manual transmission) Nissan Versa or Mitsubishi Mirage sedans for the price of a hybrid of similar size. And the gas mileage I'd get (maybe 35-40 mpg) is not that far off. Granted, those models might be pretty baseline as far as features go. But if I'm buying something that will be two thirds used for business (i.e, RS or delivery), then I'm going with economic practicality and profit margin, over investing extra money into gig apps that pay pretty much the same regardless of how many bells and whistles a car has.


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## SWside (Oct 20, 2019)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> True. Too bad most of the value added parts of the Volt are not made in the USA. The hybrid components are made in Korea, probably Samsung or LG.


This is why I linked the Kogod School of Business research at American University.

It's easy to cherry pick one aspect of a car.....
"Oh, my Camry is made in Kentucky, that's more than you can say about your _________"
"Well, my _____ has the highest domestic parts content"
Etc...

The Index I linked is the most comprehensive analysis out there. They have a professor who deeply researches EVERY aspect of a car, such as:
- parts content
- research and development 
- marketing
- where profits are reinvested
- ownership
- assembly
....And more.

It's a fascinating breakdown and you will see that the Chevrolet Corvette and Volt are at the top of the list.

You mentioned LG. I think you're confusing the Volt with the Bolt. The Bolts battery is made by LG for GM. The Volt battery was made by GM. Unfortunately 2019 was the final model year.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

waldowainthrop said:


> The problem is that you really _should_ compare the Nissan Leaf and Toyota Prius Prime with other conventional economy cars.


Right, for it to be valid, the comparison has to be like with like. "My stripped-out Versa is cheaper to run than your Rolls Royce Phantom" wouldn't be a useful comparison.

Given that the Uberlyft vehicle classes pay exactly the same for any vehicle within each class, the way to maximise profit is to minimise costs. Maximising profit is achieved with the absolute cheapest-to-run vehicle, meaning low depreciation (the biggest expense by far is not fuel but depreciation), high reliability and low fuel cost. At the moment that vehicle is an old Toyota hybrid. There are drivers, though, who want to pay a premium for the smooth drive of an EV or because they believe they're enviro-friendly etc etc and that's fine.

Anyway, regarding EV like the Leaf, Bolt, Tesla etc I have seen a lot of reviews where the reviewer takes long trips, similar or greater in length to the 300 mile rideshare shifts I do. The common feature to all of these reviews is that the have to plan their journey around charging stops. "I'll just have enough battery to get me to the charger in x town" etc. That's a deal breaker for me. When I drive, I want plan the drive around where I want to go or how much driving I want to go. Not on where I'm going to have to stop to "refuel", which is never a consideration now.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Anyway, regarding EV like the Leaf, Bolt, Tesla etc I have seen a lot of reviews where the reviewer takes long trips, similar or greater in length to the 300 mile rideshare shifts I do. The common feature to all of these reviews is that the have to plan their journey around charging stops. "I'll just have enough battery to get me to the charger in x town" etc. That's a deal breaker for me. When I drive, I want plan the drive around where I want to go or how much driving I want to go. Not on where I'm going to have to stop to "refuel", which is never a consideration now.


You are more than welcome to pay extra for the CONVENIENCE. That is the basis of capitalism.
Those of us that are happy with the calculus of the VOLT and Ridehail $$ have learned how to make it work for us.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> You are more than welcome to pay extra for the CONVENIENCE. That is the basis of capitalism.
> Those of us that are happy with the calculus of the VOLT and Ridehail $$ have learned how to make it work for us.


Right. Both a $250,000 dollar Rolls Royce and a $12,000 Nissan Versa will take you to the supermarket, on a tour across the States or wherever you want to go. You pay your money and you take your choice.

It's the same with rideshare - there are guys driving Uber X in brand new $30,000 factory-fresh Camry Hybrids and guys driving Uber X in $3,000 Priuses. If you want a nicer car then it's perfectly ok to use some profits to pay for it.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Right. Both a $250,000 dollar Rolls Royce and a $12,000 Nissan Versa will take you to the supermarket, on a tour across the States or wherever you want to go. You pay your money and you take your choice.
> 
> It's the same with rideshare - there are guys driving Uber X in brand new $30,000 factory-fresh Camry Hybrids and guys driving Uber X in $3,000 Priuses. If you want a nicer car then it's perfectly ok to use some profits to pay for it.


Im not engaging on this ridiculous comparison. Most EV's profit against their same-class ICE vehicles over their life time and definitely over high-mileage. So your Versa v. Rolls is a pretty silly way to make a point.

I'm not telling you what to do, I'm indicating what has worked exceptionally well for me. My car is not 'ridehail only' and I only do gig stuff on a part time basis. I'd have the VOLT regardless of whether or not I take it out on evenings and weekends to cart PAX around.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> So your Versa v. Rolls is a pretty silly way to make a point.


Doesn't stop it from being true, though. Any functioning car with four wheels will drive wherever you want to go. The point is that you decide how much you want to pay and you take your choice. I want to pay as little as possible while still having a reasonably comfortable vehicle. Comfort, reliability and economy are the most important things to me; I don't care about vehicle age or performance or other factors. But that's just me. There are others such as yourself who are willing to pay more for a newer vehicle and that's fine! As I say, you pay your money and you take your choice.


> I'm not telling you what to do, I'm indicating what has worked exceptionally well for me. My car is not 'ridehail only' and I only do gig stuff on a part time basis. I'd have the VOLT regardless of whether or not I take it out on evenings and weekends to cart PAX around.


Good for you. If I had the money for my weekend and evenings car I would restomod an old chrome bumper MGB roadster and put a 3.5l V8 in it. It would not be cheap to run or reliable, but that'd be what I'd spend my money on.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Doesn't stop it from being true, though. Any functioning car with four wheels will drive wherever you want to go. The point is that you decide how much you want to pay and you take your choice. I want to pay as little as possible while still having a reasonably comfortable vehicle. Comfort, reliability and economy are the most important things to me; I don't care about vehicle age or performance or other factors. But that's just me. There are others such as yourself who are willing to pay more for a newer vehicle and that's fine! As I say, you pay your money and you take your choice.
> Good for you. If I had the money for my weekend and evenings car I would restomod an old chrome bumper MGB roadster and put a 3.5l V8 in it. It would not be cheap to run or reliable, but that'd be what I'd spend my money on.


We have a saying up here in the frozen North: "6 of one. Half a Dozen of the other."


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> We have a saying up here in the frozen North: "6 of one. Half a Dozen of the other."


So do we. However in this context the options are not equal. They are quite different, albeit with each one being as valid as the next.

They important thing is to be aware of what all of the costs are. There was one very, very disillusioned Bolt owner who posted on here, believing that his car costs 4 cents per mile to run and that with all the savings he could buy himself a new Corolla. The guy was clearly a space cadet, focussing on just one element and ignoring everything else. Which is a bad idea.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Current article on ROADSHOW (Cnet's Auto Section):

The Volt may not seem like a family vehicle, but I assure you it's quite the versatile machine, with phenomenal fuel economy to boot. Granted, this pick is probably best for smaller families, but nevertheless, the Volt is a solid all-around vehicle.

First of all, it's a hatchback, and the rear seats fold flat to reveal a surprising amount of cargo room. This one time, I squeezed 20 bags of mulch into one. The Volt is also a plug-in hybrid with an estimated 53 miles of electric range at the driver's disposal. With the small battery, you can easily plug it into a household outlet overnight without needing to wait an extraordinary amount of time. Even if you forego charging the car up, the hybrid powertrain delivers 42 miles per gallon. Families won't need to worry about budgeting for fuel all too often.

Now, the rear seats aren't the most wonderful place, especially with a tight middle seat, but they'll easily strap a couple of kids in the rear and keep them safe. Buyers will find a wide assortment of low-mileage, second-generation (2016-2019) Volts with the more mainstream design well under $20,000. The Premier model will toss in all the goodies, but even a Volt with the Comfort Package includes comforts such as heated seats and a heated steering wheel. Seriously, there's a lot to love about Chevy's now-discontinued plug-in.
_-- Sean Szymkowski_


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## Bork_Bork_Bork (May 20, 2019)

No tax crédit - no Bueno


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## Escoman (Jun 28, 2016)

53 miles wow!


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## VanGuy (Feb 15, 2019)

It may not seem like much but my van, with only 33 miles of electric, means I rarely burn gas in the summer going back and forth to work. My last tank hit 160mpg as a result since only things like Amazon Flex, which was rare I'll admit, and other personal errands that took me over the batteries capacity and finally on to gas.

Now that winter is coming I'll start burning again as the heater draws a lot more than the AC but I'll still get phenomenal mileage compared to a traditional gas vehicle, especially traditional vans.


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## Escoman (Jun 28, 2016)

VanGuy said:


> It may not seem like much but my van, with only 33 miles of electric, means I rarely burn gas in the summer going back and forth to work. My last tank hit 160mpg as a result since only things like Amazon Flex, which was rare I'll admit, and other personal errands that took me over the batteries capacity and finally on to gas.
> 
> Now that winter is coming I'll start burning again as the heater draws a lot more than the AC but I'll still get phenomenal mileage compared to a traditional gas vehicle, especially traditional vans.


That's awesome that you have a life that works around such a short distance.


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

VanGuy said:


> It may not seem like much but my van, with only 33 miles of electric, means I rarely burn gas in the summer going back and forth to work. My last tank hit 160mpg as a result since only things like Amazon Flex, which was rare I'll admit, and other personal errands that took me over the batteries capacity and finally on to gas.


When I gave up rides in late February until mid-June I was on the same tank of gas and I charge my car at work for free so I was up to 216MPG with that tank! I did get a little worried in late-May with the engine not running for so long I let the batteries run out so the engine would kick in for a 12 mile drive on the highway...


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## Escoman (Jun 28, 2016)

That is a nice problem to have


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## VanGuy (Feb 15, 2019)

Fusion_LUser said:


> When I gave up rides in late February until mid-June I was on the same tank of gas and I charge my car at work for free so I was up to 216MPG with that tank! I did get a little worried in late-May with the engine not running for so long I let the batteries run out so the engine would kick in for a 12 mile drive on the highway...


The van takes care of that for me. If the gas gets stale or the oil needs a heat up, it goes into FORM mode. Fuel Oil Refresh Mode. Basically runs on gas more for a while so I don't have to worry about things getting a little off. I've had it a year and a half and had that happen twice.


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