# Lyft Raises Service Fee to Pass Higher Insurance Costs onto Customers



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

The rideshare company says insurance costs are just *too damn high*...



https://jalopnik.com/lyft-raises-service-fee-to-pass-higher-insurance-costs-1849668015


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Sorry, but I gotta:


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> The rideshare company says insurance costs are just *too damn high*...
> 
> 
> 
> https://jalopnik.com/lyft-raises-service-fee-to-pass-higher-insurance-costs-1849668015


The only reason their insurance rates would be going up is if the cost of insuring them is going up. So instead of looking at how to minimize insurance costs through programs and policies that reduce the insurance risk (like by screening riders as they do drivers, dumping cars older than 7 years, etc) they are just going to say 'that's cool - we'll pass it on to the rider'). I don't know - <shrug> - maybe that cheaper than actually make the service safer for everyone.

case in point: *RIDERS CREATING FAKE ACCOUNTS TO CARJACK DRIVERS*
(thanks @Antares)


----------



## Rampage (8 mo ago)

Costs getting passed on to the end consumer. Same reason raising taxes suck.


----------



## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

“Lyft is facing insurance *inflation *pressures, and we’ve nominally increased service fees to help offset these costs,” the spokesperson said.

Yeah, blame it on "inflation". Couldn't have anything to do with scraping the bottom of the barrel for qualified drivers willing to work under the current pay schemes.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

$.60 a ride.

Makes you wonder how long they knew about the increase in insurance prices for them?

Could they have dropped the driver's fuel surcharge ahead of time so they could kick this extra money in for insurance instead?

Why should they give the $0.60 to the drivers when they can keep it and help pay their bills. Screw the driver yet again.

I said this would happen a while back that the customers would get used to paying that surcharge for the fuel and when it came time for the fuel charge to go away, Uber and Lyft somehow magically incorporates it into their prices anyway.


----------



## salukidean (Feb 7, 2020)

It’s amazing how Lyft says insurance fees went up so we need more money, However, drivers cost went up but we’ll give them less money


----------



## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

So they got rid of the fuel surcharge paid to the drivers, then implemented a similar fee that they are keeping for themselves. Got it.


----------



## Buckiemohawk (Jun 23, 2015)

if they charged what it cost to actually go places. They wouldnt have this problem they could be strict who they let drive.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Well there you have it.

The next pay cut that I knew was coming, but fear not my fellow ants. _The next paycut is right around the corner._

But remember the truth, this is good for us because afterall _*lower pay means more money!*_


----------



## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

This is hysterical. They recently testified here that's raising passenger rates by $0.06 a ride is too costly to the passengers. This $0.06 a ride was because they were forced to carry underinsured and uninsured motor is coverage. They dropped this coverage at the beginning of the pandemic and didn't inform the drivers or passengers. After passenger got stuck with a $200,000 medical bill after a hit and run while in a lyft, a bill got proposed to mandate that both companies carry underinsured and uninsured motorist coverage. Both companies told the state $0.06 was just too much to pass on to the customer. Yet yet a short time later both raised rates for profit and they didn't seem to have any problem raising rates for their insurance that they wanted specifically🙄


----------



## Buckiemohawk (Jun 23, 2015)

Daisey77 said:


> This is hysterical. They recently testified here that's raising passenger rates by $0.06 a ride is too costly to the passengers. This $0.06 a ride was because they were forced to carry underinsured and uninsured motor is coverage. They dropped this coverage at the beginning of the pandemic and didn't inform the drivers or passengers. After passenger got stuck with a $200,000 medical bill after a hit and run while in a lyft, a bill got proposed to mandate that both companies carry underinsured and uninsured motorist coverage. Both companies told the state $0.06 was just too much to pass on to the customer. Yet yet a short time later both raised rates for profit and they didn't seem to have any problem raising rates for their insurance that they wanted specifically🙄


_Its not too costly and customers will pay. People will still take the ride that need the ride. The cost of a ride will not stop people it only stops the short fares and cheapos. Not the people going out on the town from Avalon Park to Boardwalk who paid 47 dollars and Lyft paid me 30 dollars. That was back before Lyft went bad and still didnt pay enough and charge enough. The people still would have paid up to 80 bucks for that ride. They have morons working for them. One of the biggest questions i ever got was why is Uber so cheap in central florida? People called the ones in charged setting the rates. Uber executives looked at the pay averages for central florida and how busy it was and decided on price fix to make it work. They have no knowledge of the area or any of the conditions drivers face. One night at Epcot I had some Uber executive get into my cab and asked why nobody wanted to pick him up and take him to bonnet creek. I explained you only pay three bucks for that ride and only 6 dollars for a ride to 10 miles ride to I drive . So drivers get picky about who they pick up. Central Florida is the biggest joke fro dirver payment and once they saw the floodgates opening of people who wanted to make a buck they kept it. _


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

salukidean said:


> we’ll give them less money


I haven't used lyft since 2019. When did they do that?


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Buckiemohawk said:


> _Its not too costly and customers will pay. People will still take the ride that need the ride. The cost of a ride will not stop people it only stops the short fares and cheapos. Not the people going out on the town from Avalon Park to Boardwalk who paid 47 dollars and Lyft paid me 30 dollars. That was back before Lyft went bad and still didnt pay enough and charge enough. The people still would have paid up to 80 bucks for that ride. They have morons working for them. One of the biggest questions i ever got was why is Uber so cheap in central florida? People called the ones in charged setting the rates. Uber executives looked at the pay averages for central florida and how busy it was and decided on price fix to make it work. They have no knowledge of the area or any of the conditions drivers face. One night at Epcot I had some Uber executive get into my cab and asked why nobody wanted to pick him up and take him to bonnet creek. I explained you only pay three bucks for that ride and only 6 dollars for a ride to 10 miles ride to I drive . So drivers get picky about who they pick up. Central Florida is the biggest joke fro dirver payment and once they saw the floodgates opening of people who wanted to make a buck they kept it. _


That's hilarious. I remember that happening to someone but I forgot it was you.

That sums up Orlando these days.

High rated customers can't get rides at fricken disney world because the drivers are MIA while the taxis qeue 3-5 cars deep at all the hotels and get fares.

These latest cuts are only going to make it worse, and coming into the hollidays new surge + shit base rates = Why bother with disney.

Picking up at disney at closing time falls into "Big venue" complications on finding your pax, 
IE loads of people looking for rides, people not following instructions, and paxholes ordering rides before they are out to the pickup area. PLus the large party and car seat issues (which rarely happen at big venues TBH). 

Good luck finding your party in a timely fashion.

back in the day high surge made it worth while, crap surge and shit base pay? Yeah that's a big fat screw that.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Buckiemohawk said:


> if they charged what it cost to actually go places


How would they know the variable cost for all the various vehicles and drivers?

And even if it were possible to do so, why would they charge only the cost? What about profit margin?


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

This is what is meant when an Economist says that 'corporations don't pay taxes.'
If the price to operate goes up by $1 (FOR ANY REASON) that dollar is passed on to customers.
The corporations profit margin stays the same -- or they go out of business.
That's their only two choices.


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Heisenburger said:


> What about profit margin?


You don't charge a profit margin on expenses.
You COVER expenses so your profit margin doesn't go down.
And, you do that by passing it on to the customer.

.


----------



## Buckiemohawk (Jun 23, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> How would they know the variable cost for all the various vehicles and drivers?
> 
> And even if it were possible to do so, why would they charge only the cost? What about profit margin?


Let say a 77 mile trip cost in gas and mileage 35 dollars to actually profit you need to make double that amount plus around ten dollars. A driver would have to make with time and other about 120 dollars but lyft thinks its okay to pay break even on cost and pay that to the driver.


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Buckiemohawk said:


> Let say a 77 mile trip cost in gas and mileage 35 dollars to actually profit you need to make double that amount plus around ten dollars. A driver would have to make with time and other about 120 dollars but lyft thinks its okay to pay break even on cost and pay that to the driver.


In your example, it doesn't matter what Lyft thinks.
It matters what the driver thinks.

If (s)he can't make profit doing that trip, then they shouldn't do it.
It really IS that simple.

I work for a medium sized multi-million a year company. Some of the jobs I hire for - I wouldn't do for twice the money. But ... like PT Barnum was known to say, "There's a sucker born every minute." And, if we couldn't find anyone willing to do the job at what we offer, we'd raise the offer. It's already happened. 
In THIS field, well, RS drivers aren't that smart. It is a PT Barnum target-rich environment.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Buckiemohawk said:


> Let say a 77 mile trip cost in gas and mileage 35 dollars to actually profit you need to make double that amount plus around ten dollars. A driver would have to make with time and other about 120 dollars but lyft thinks its okay to pay break even on cost and pay that to the driver.


Exactly what is your metrics that you're basing this minimum amount per trip on?


There's just a bunch of numbers and assumptions and that's it.

Let's just say "the world is flat to make this easy," but that doesn't make it true in any way without empirical data.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Buckiemohawk said:


> Let say a 77 mile trip cost in gas and mileage 35 dollars to actually profit you need to make double that amount plus around ten dollars. A driver would have to make with time and other about 120 dollars but lyft thinks its okay to pay break even on cost and pay that to the driver.


Almost every unique driver-vehicle combination is going to have a different actual cost for any given A-B trip. That's because, just on UberX alone, there exist literally hundreds of different vehicles and a half dozen different driving styles (eg. Jackrabbit dragster to granny strolling). Pricing any trip that attempts to factor in actual costs is utterly impractical without some heavy databases, computation and massive processing power. I don't see Uber attempting such anytime soon. 

Therefore, they simply need to go fishing and take a trial and error approach to see what the acceptance rates are for various offers to various drivers. As they capture the data over time and millions of offers about which are ignored or declined vs accepted and completed, they learn to make "better" offers next week and next month. We're constantly training their algorithms.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> The corporations profit margin stays the same -- or they go out of business.
> That's their only two choices.


False dichotomy.



> False Dilemma Fallacy
> 
> Sometimes called the “either-or” fallacy, a false dilemma is a logical fallacy that presents only two options or sides when there are many options or sides. Essentially, a false dilemma presents a “black and white” kind of thinking when there are actually many shades of gray. Person 1: You’re either for the war or against the troops. Person 2: Actually, I do not want our troops sent into a dangerous war.
> 
> ...


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> If (s)he can't make profit doing that trip, then they shouldn't do it.
> It really IS that simple.


Actually I disagree that it's that simple. Unless one is rolling around in a Hummer or FJ cruiser on UberX, 95% of offers are profitable to them. One must simply decide *how much* profit they want on a per offer basis. That's less simple unless one gets comfortable with some mental math shortcuts.

Remember that everything above one's own CPM is profit. So if one's CPM is $0.30, and a 20 miles total trip length is offered at $14.00, the profit is $8.00, but if the same trip is offered at $18.00, the profit is $12.00.

TLDR: It's typically only a question of *how* profitable.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> attempts to factor in actual costs is utterly impractical without some heavy databases, computation and massive processing power.


Lets just "say" the government did this step and the average was so....oh.... I dunno.....$.62.5 a mile.

Now factor in wiggle money...say $.15.

Then for future savings retirement....another oh.....um..... $.25

Total.... $1.00 a mile
(Market dependent)

This should be the lowest (give or take) you should accept. 

Now, if your gonna argue 10 cents here or there fine. But stay at that target cpm.

Face it at a dollar a mile you should be fine with profit and stash money.

Now areas that have absorbient gas prices or something out of the norm I can understand adjusting that $1. But not too many places are going to have to worry about it.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Now factor in wiggle money...say $.15.


 Wiggle? I've never had a paystub with that line item.



W00dbutcher said:


> Then for future savings retirement....another oh.....um..... $.25


 Honestly, how'd you derive such a round number?

It's hard to be taken seriously when you're just making up numbers that magically add up to a nice round amount of $1.00. That's not what they teach in business schools.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Wiggle? I've never had a paystub with that line item.


Paystub? Who's saying about a pay stub? This is an estimate to guide you in the amount needed when a ride pops up for CPM.




Heisenburger said:


> Honestly, how'd you derive such a round number?


Here again estimate, lowest you should accept, and a simple guide for CPM to make profit.

Do you know you're supposed to put 15% of whatever you make away for retirement? That's what the 25 cents is for. Part of it anyway.

You can say the 25 cents is for cocaine and hookers for all I care. It's a block of money earmarked for a certain event or action. Same thing with the 15 cents.


Example, wiggle room.

.Johny needs new car
.Johny used the $ from the $.62.5 depreciation $
.Johnny's new car cost more cause of inflation
.johny had smarts
.johny had wiggle room $
.JOHNY BUYS NEW CAR.

Business school gives you the tools to run your business. A smart business owner takes those tools and applies them to what he thinks is needed to run his business and continue his business. That includes wiggle room and retirement money. Business school did not teach you that it has to be this way and this way only.

Didn't your dad teach you that a screwdriver is also more than a screwdriver? It's a scraper, it's a pry bar, it's a back scratcher, but most importantly it screws a screw in.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> I've never had a paystub with that line item.


Its rather laughable that you would even mention line item on s pay stub in this type of business.

I do believe business school would teach you the this type of business would consist of a draw, not a paycheck.

And I can almost guarantee that nobody is actually paying themselves a "paycheck" in this business. Seeing how a paycheck is based on a set salary or per hour bases.

Then there's the withholding taxs Social Security and everything else that comes with a paycheck. And I know damn good and well nobody in this business is even doing that, or aware of fund matching that comes with that type of pay set up.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Example, wiggle room.


Do you know of *any* other business that includes anything synonymous with "wiggle room" on their financial accounting statements? Any of them? Walmart? Microsoft? The Home Depot? Chase Bank? McDonald's? Dunkin'? Anyone?


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Do you know of *any* other business that includes anything synonymous with "wiggle room" on their financial accounting statements? Any of them? Walmart? Microsoft? The Home Depot? Chase Bank? McDonald's? Dunkin'? Anyone?


Did you miss the words that say it was an estimate for CPM min.

And if you really want to get anal about it, you can label wiggle room as future planning and investment.


Also, I bet less than 1% of the people that do this gig even know how to break down items on a financial statement.


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Heisenburger said:


> Do you know of *any* other business that includes anything synonymous with "wiggle room" on their financial accounting statements? Any of them? Walmart? Microsoft? The Home Depot? Chase Bank? McDonald's? Dunkin'? Anyone?


I think they call it 'contingency funds', or on Hunter Biden's books its called "Kickbacks to the Big Guy."


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Thank you both for making my point.



W00dbutcher said:


> Did you miss the words that say it was an estimate for CPM min.
> 
> And if you really want to get anal about it, you can label wiggle room as future planning and investment.
> 
> ...





UberBastid said:


> I think they call it 'contingency funds', or on Hunter Biden's books its called "Kickbacks to the Big Guy."


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Thank you both for making my point.


Which is what? I'm totally wrong but I'm going to circle my way out of this by throwing up a bunch of shit?


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Which is what? I'm totally wrong but I'm going to circle my way out of this by throwing up a bunch of shit?


I'm not the one who's unable to take the heat by actually making their case.

Nor am I the one who thinks that pulling numbers out of one's own rectum instead makes for effective persuasion.

_Learning how to effectively change minds is a learned skill. Sadly, most never acquire it._


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> I'm not the one who's unable to take the heat by actually making their case.
> 
> Nor am I the one who thinks that pulling numbers out of one's own rectum instead makes for effective persuasion.
> 
> _Learning how to effectively change minds is a learned skill. Sadly, most never acquire it._


Im not clear why something as clear as wiggle room and retirement/future planning needs numbers when i clearly stated its an estimated value on both "line items" ? Even if i did say 15% of your earnings should go to retirement anyway. If you really want to cost override analysis or whatever the hell you want to call it in your little business school education world you think you have, then go ahead whip out a pen, paper, projector, grid paper, pencil, eraser, or whatever it is that you need to establish those ultra realistic values in your little world.

I'm not sure how much more clear I can make it it's an estimated CPM. Which is different in all markets based on your performance and your needs of your market.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> it's an estimated CPM


Great!

Unfortunately, it's the same ignorant and overly simplistic figure that morons have been bleating for a frickin decade! As if inflation doesn't ever occur (regardless of which political team is in power!)

Because it's been the same number bleated over several years that have seen higher inflation and because it fails to consider one's unique operating cost per mile, it's utterly meaningless.

It's clearly a cry intended to keep the noobs declining offers so the vets can snag them.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Great!
> 
> Unfortunately, it's the same ignorant and overly simplistic figure that morons have been bleating for a frickin decade! As if inflation doesn't ever occur (regardless of which political team is in power!)
> 
> ...


But yet you're the smart son of a bïtch that can't even answer a simple question.

Whats an AVERAGE CPM for the mainland USA.

Please, show your best estimated figures.

Ill... No we will ALL WAIT for your brilliantness.

You keep bleeding about a 10-year-old CPM numbers when you can't even offer a simple one for today. But yet complain that everybody is using one that works in an average market across the United States? 

Hypocrite much?


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> You keep bleeding about a 10-year-old CPM numbers


"_$1.00+ per mile or bust!_" is regurgitated like yesteryears meme around this forum just to keep the noobie drivers declining all the $0.65-$0.95 per mile offers (while wasting away their day) just so the veteran driver can snag them.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> "_$1.00+ per mile or bust!_" is regurgitated like yesteryears meme around this forum just to keep the noobie drivers declining all the $0.65-$0.95 per mile offers (while wasting away their day) just so the veteran driver can snag them.


That makes absolutely no sense.

Any veteran driver knows that if you want to make a profit you have to take over $1 a mile.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

And yeah you still can't provide a CPM to validate your claims.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> "_$1.00+ per mile or bust!_" is regurgitated like yesteryears meme around this forum just to keep the noobie drivers declining all the $0.65-$0.95 per mile offers (while wasting away their day) just so the veteran driver can snag them.


Mathematics will confirm by your statement that IF a driver was only accepting rides based at this amount , some of these drivers are putting 1200+ miles a week on a vehicle to produce $1000 a week.

I did 980 miles last week and pulled in $1100 for uber.

Before you say "see i told ya i was tight," add in $535 as a private license and insured TAXI with those same miles mixed in.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Any veteran driver knows that if you want to make a profit you have to take over $1 a mile.


 Utterly false. Here's why: one's *actual* (not forecast or estimated) CPM must exceed $1.00 per mile for it to be true.



W00dbutcher said:


> And yeah you still can't provide a CPM to validate your claims.


$0.18



W00dbutcher said:


> IF a driver was only accepting rides based at this amount , some of these drivers are putting 1200+ miles a week on a vehicle to produce $1000 a week.


Yes, and so what? I'm not seeing how that bolsters your assertion.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

__





Cost per Mile - The Basic Formula


In any industry, especially transportation, it is essential for the owner of a business to understand how much it costs per mile to operate his vehicle, trucks or fleet. The formula looks simple and in reality it is; but you must understand the underlying elements to truly appreciate and...




businessecon.org


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Utterly false. Here's why: one's *actual* (not forecast or estimated) CPM must exceed $1.00 per mile for it to be true.


I forgot you live in a real reality of absolutes and have no concept over the word estimate.



Heisenburger said:


> $0.18


So you're saying 18 cents a mile is your CPM? So by your on Words $1 a mile is more than plenty based on your estimation.

Go ahead and take all them 50 Cent rides or lower there buddy cuz you ain't going to make shit.



Heisenburger said:


> Yes, and so what? I'm not seeing how that bolsters your assertion.


If you don't understand that then you have more problems than your 18 cents a CPM.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> If you don't understand that then you have more problems than your 18 cents a CPM.


 Failure to address the statement and instead attack my cognitive ability means that you have no counterargument.



W00dbutcher said:


> So you're saying 18 cents a mile is your CPM?


Yes I am.



W00dbutcher said:


> I forgot you live in a real reality of absolutes and have no concept over the word estimate.


 Failure to address the statement and instead put up a straw man illustrates that you have nothing substantive to counter.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again with the truck bullshit?
But okay let's use your truck bullshit.

The *garbage truck* has a $1.25 a mile CPM.

Last time i checked a car is nothing compared to a garbage truck. 


18 cents a mile. Oh my God that's so funny it's stupid.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

If 18 cents a mile is your CPM, back up your statement with an absolute breakdown of how you came to that amount.

Cost of car, cost of tires, cost of oil, cost of parts, cost of gas, anything that is included in maintaining that car per mile for an entire year, estimate, in your breakdown of 18 cents a mile.

A person of your business savvy as you so claim, should already have this information available and relatively easily transferred to a simple spreadsheet or even just typing it out for us all to enjoy.


----------



## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

When it was announced earlier that Lyft was suspending the 55 cent surcharge that went to the driver, I predicted that Lyft would still collect the surcharge and keep it for themselves. As it was, Lyft eliminated the 55 cent fuel surcharge that went to the driver, and only tacked on a 50 cent “service fee” that goes to Lyft. The customer is now saving a nickel.
That’s was very generous of you, Lyft. Thank goodness the drivers aren’t facing any “inflationary pressures.” 
😏🖕


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

AAA breakdown.

Includes depreciation, loan interest, fuel, insurance, maintenance, anything else needed to keep that vehicle running.

15,000 miles
S10,728 a year
$.715 a mile

Goverment has it at $.625

Investopedia.com

*2019 Model**10,000 Miles per Year**15,000 Miles per Year**20,000 Miles per Year*Small Sedan60.6 cents47.4 cents40.9 centsMedium Sedan74.9 cents57.6 cents49.1 centsLarge Sedan90.0 cents69.4 cents59.2 cents4WD SUV87.4 cents68.4cents59.1 centsMinivan87.1 cents66.9 cents57.0 cents


Then we have this ....
@Heisenburger has it at $.18


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Then we have this ....
> @Heisenburger has it at $.18


*At least *three factors that your brain can't grasp give me lower CPM than virtually everyone except bicyclists and motorcyclists:

CPM is lowered with each incremental mile driven. I'm not adding 12-15k miles annually like the average commuter.
My acquisition costs are lower than average because I buy 10-12 year old cars with 125-175k miles. My depreciation expense is virtually non-existent compared to the assumptions of those sites that I'm buying something straight off the assembly line.
I drive conservatively to eliminate needless wear. Therefore my maintenance and repairs are less frequent.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> *At least *three factors that your brain can't grasp give me lower CPM than virtually everyone except bicyclists and motorcyclists:
> 
> CPM is lowered with each incremental mile driven. I'm not adding 12-15k miles annually like the average commuter.
> My acquisition costs are lower than average because I buy 10-12 year old cars with 125-175k miles. My depreciation expense is virtually non-existent compared to the assumptions of those sites that I'm buying something straight off the assembly line.
> I drive conservatively to eliminate needless wear. Therefore my maintenance and repairs are less frequent.


1. If you're driving full time you're putting 20,000 plus miles on your car. 80 miles a day 5 days a week. We will be generous and say you get 25 miles a gallon. So that would be 800 gallons ($3.50gal) a year at the price of $2,800.
That would be $.14 a mile

2. So you're buying older car that can only be on the market for 3 years. At 60,000 miles you're still spending $.08 a mile for a $5,000 vehicle.

3. Even going by your little website you by how much a truck cost to run per mile for light maintenance, we're going to put that at $.01 mile just to be generous.


14 + 8 +1 = $.23 a mile.

So unless you have a magic way of buying older vehicles that don't break down at all you're still at $.23 mile and that's just the minimum. Let's not forget the mileage that you put on for personal use. You can go ahead and add that in too.

You accept $.33 a mile uber trips and make money and are happy with this ?


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> 1. If you're driving full time you're putting 20,000 plus miles on your car. 80 miles a day 5 days a week. We will be generous and say you get 25 miles a gallon. So that would be 800 gallons ($3.50gal) a year at the price of $2,800.
> That would be $.14 a mile
> 
> 2. So you're buying older car that can only be on the market for 3 years. At 60,000 miles you're still spending $.08 a mile for a $5,000 vehicle.
> ...


Perhaps you're just new to the transportation sector. Here's a concept that'll knock your socks off:



> PER MILE COSTS DECREASES WHEN MILES INCREASE
> 
> As the miles a truck operates increases, the Cost Per Mile figure will decrease. (Figure 2) Of course your driver income should also increase as you drive those miles too. Let’s just look at the first and last points on this chart. The $1.06 per mile cost, at 50,000 miles, represents a vehicle cost of $53,000 and a “Driver Income” of $22,174. The final $0.69 per mile cost for 130,000 miles, represents a vehicle cost of $89,000 and a “Driver Income ” of $38,422. This decrease of cost per mile with each additional mile is a characteristic small business truckers share with the big fleets; greater equipment utilization translates into lower per mile costs and the potential for increased net revenues and profits.
> 
> ...


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Perhaps you're just new to the transportation sector. Here's a concept that'll knock your socks off:


So you're saying that all this information you keep repeating about trucks, says that the longer you keep the vehicle the older it is your CPM keeps going down.

Your cost whether they're fixed or fluid, should be lesser every year. No matter what. To a point this is correct unless something catastrophic patents.

that means that the $1 a mile actually is better for you as your vehicle ages. Because you are making more money but paying out less for fixed expenses?

remind me why you keep bleeting that the $1 is not a good benchmark to make money in this gig?

All the information you keep providing does nothing but bolster the fact that the $1 is in fact the average Target price for a decent CPM.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> the $1 a mile actually is better for you as your vehicle ages. Because you are making more money but paying out less for fixed expenses?


The following three statements are equally valid and true as the one above:

the $1.80 a mile actually is better for you as your vehicle ages. Because you are making more money but paying out less for fixed expenses?
the $1.40 a mile actually is better for you as your vehicle ages. Because you are making more money but paying out less for fixed expenses?
the $1.20 a mile actually is better for you as your vehicle ages. Because you are making more money but paying out less for fixed expenses?
So, your $1.00 is yet another equally *unsupported* opinion. And opinions are just like a-holes: everybody's got one!



W00dbutcher said:


> All the information you keep providing does nothing but bolster the fact that the $1 is in fact the average Target price for a decent CPM.


 Equally true assertions:

All the information you keep providing does nothing but bolster the fact that the $0.90 is in fact the average Target price for a decent CPM.
All the information you keep providing does nothing but bolster the fact that the $1.10 is in fact the average Target price for a decent CPM.
All the information you keep providing does nothing but bolster the fact that the $2 is in fact the average Target price for a decent CPM.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> So you're buying older car that can only be on the market for 3 years. At 60,000 miles you're still spending $.08 a mile for a $5,000 vehicle.


You seemingly don't look at the used sedan market often.

The current unique historic pandemic recovery market forces notwithstanding, a small 12 year old sedan with 150k miles sells for $3-5k, depending on brand. Add another 150k miles over 3 years and sell for $1.5-4k, depending on brand. It's a $1-1.5k depreciation expense, or $0.01 per mile.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Until you can post a decent breakdown of how you exactly come $.18 a mile cost you're talking out your ass and this conversation is done.

But I expect nothing more than a political dance from you so enjoy your little hell


----------



## 232439 (7 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> The rideshare company says insurance costs are just *too damn high*...
> 
> 
> 
> https://jalopnik.com/lyft-raises-service-fee-to-pass-higher-insurance-costs-1849668015


Meanwhile we drivers have to pay $2,500 deductible in event of accident.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Im not clear why something as clear as wiggle room and retirement/future planning needs numbers


Is that what you ask the auditors?


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Is that what you ask the auditors?


Do you go back and pick shit out just to start crap, or are you that miserable you have nothing better to do?

Why would I ask an auditor about my personal plans for the future within my own business? That would be more of a question aligned to somebody that is.... Um.... say an accountant or financial advisor?

Seeing how an auditor inspects documents and financial records for accuracy, they would be the last person you want to ask. Usually because what they're inspecting has already been done.

I think they teach that in Business School.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Why would I ask an auditor about my personal plans for the future within my own business?


You're the one who wrote that wiggle room is what every good business plans for. So it'd also be reflected on financial statements. Auditors examine financial statements.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> You're the one who wrote that wiggle room is what every good business plans for. So it'd also be reflected on financial statements. Auditors examine financial statements.


Yes. Any any accounting firm auditor or financial person can and will accept wiggle room for a expenditure seeing how it falls under the SG&A category and definition.

SG&A expenses related to a business's operations, such as supplies, manufacturing expenses and facility expenses.

Like I said from the very first post, this is a estimate. To roughly calculate or judge the value, number, quantity, or extent of something.


Unforeseen inflation because of the war, could be considered something that would fall under the thing called wiggle room. It was an unknown expenditure that could not be planned for or known at the time.

The origin of wiggle room came from being in construction for 25 years. When you bid something and you don't know what's Behind the Walls because of somebody else could have done something totally out of the ordinary and then covered it up, you always add in wiggle room money to cover incidentals and stupid mistakes that happen because of somebody else's workmanship.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> If 18 cents a mile is your CPM, back up your statement with an absolute breakdown of how you came to that amount.
> 
> Cost of car, cost of tires, cost of oil, cost of parts, cost of gas, anything that is included in maintaining that car per mile for an entire year, estimate, in your breakdown of 18 cents a mile.


Read, digest, be learned Young Padawan:









Uber Minneapolis real pay is $10-$15 an hour or less...


Hopefully my 2020 will cost less, but I've already replaced a clutch. Wait wait wait, you're slinging a stick? Driving Uber?




www.uberpeople.net













Whats your CPM? (A fun thread)


What's your Cost per Mile (CPM) to operate? Always a fair number of people who post what they think their operating costs are, but do they really know? 0.04 (Insurance). 0.10 (Car Depreciation). 0.06 (Fuel). 0.20 CPM. Where the numbers lay: 7 Days in a week, 30.5 days in a month, 4.3 weeks...




www.uberpeople.net













CPM, expenses and other asinine discussions


Everyone's expenses are the same essentially. Not exactly the same amount because we don't drive the same vehicles/level of service but we all drive cars and all cars basically have the same dang expenses. For that matter expenses really shouldn't vary a whole lot from person to person...




www.uberpeople.net













Here is how to calculate your cost per mile.


This post is for People who own an insured personal vehicle and will drive additional miles on that vehicle for rideshare This post is not for People who think that the IRS deduction ($.535/mile) equals the cost of operating a personal vehicle for rideshare, irrespective of what that vehicle...




www.uberpeople.net


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Read, digest, be learned Young Padawan:


Here's what one learns from your 4 quoted threads.



Cogburn said:


> Everyone's expenses are the same essentially. Not exactly the same amount because we don't drive the same vehicles/level of service but we all drive cars and all cars basically have the same dang expenses.


Wow... The same but diffrent.



sillymako83 said:


> @ .65 => $21,558 per year
> @ .80 => $26,115 per year
> @ .95 => $31,544 per year
> @ last March ($1.20) => $40,374


From $.65 to $1.20 is an average of $.92.5.
Seems a pattern is emerging.




MSPDriver said:


> I did a pretty detailed analysis on another post (look at if you want), and came up with a range of 30 cents to 50 cents a mile.


So $.50......hrrmmmm



Mpls55345 said:


> .58 a mile deduction. IRS does not give out gifts. It cost you at least that to operate your car doing this, or anything that you put miles on your car.



Wow.... So by your read this and Digest scenario, the $1 average seems pretty legit.

By even these calculations, the $1 would make everybody money regardless of what your CPM, because your average CPM is low enough to where it's almost half the estimated $1 per mile like suggested.

I mean if you took the time and to read the entire threads and not just Cherry Picked the information pertaining to your agenda.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

So mr. @Heisenburger , if as stated by you own words your cpm is $.18, pleeeeeeease try to explain to me why an average of $1 per mile would not be a good benchmark for even you?

Or do you just enjoy not making 82 cents per mile on average?

So wait..... you're that ****ing guy that takes $.50 a mile or lower because your CPM is so low.

Fellas, i think we found part of the problem why Uber keeps sending out these damn lowball prices.

It's people like Heisenberg, that aren't smart enough to make more money than they should because they just don't pay a lot for their CPM.


You deserve an attaboy for this one buddy.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Here's what one learns from your 4 quoted threads.





Ted Fink said:


> MY costs are 25c a mile. All inclusive.





Ted Fink said:


> Depreciation IS part of the cost of the current car. Saving for a future car is a good thing, but it's not a cost associated with the current car.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Or do you just enjoy not making 82 cents per mile on average?


If you believe that's my average, then produce some evidence here Skippy.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Still looks like the estimated $1 per mile looks pretty good to what you're posting still.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> If you believe that's my average, then produce some evidence here Skippy.


I can care less what's your average is. Here again you don't see the word minimum or hear the word estimate or know the fact that you said 18 cents a mile was your CPM.

So a little bit of math would tell me or anybody in this world that your average would be 82 cents a mile per trip if you use the estimated average of $1 per mile.

What exactly are you fighting except for the validity of how I broke down my mileage to get the $1?


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> My CPM is 32 cents by the way.





UberEddie2015 said:


> My CPM is right around .40





OldsmarUber said:


> 0.20 CPM.





UberPasco said:


> $0.27 rise in gas pushes my CPM to $0.2





wb6vpm said:


> My CPM is approximately $0.22 per mile (some items were guesstimates on pricing)





AzAppDriver said:


> which raises my cpm to .26.





Heisenburger said:


> My CPM is right at 20¢ *with* current local gas prices (13¢ to fuel and 7¢ to all maintenance/repairs).





OldBay said:


> my cpm is around .20 as calculated


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Those are all cost per mile to run the vehicle? What about the money you're going to put into your pocket? Some of those are making an average of minimum 75 cents a mile based on the $1 estimate.

Just keep proving the point that the $1 estimate looks pretty good.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Still looks like the estimated $1 per mile looks pretty good to what you're posting still.


Just like (UberX):

$0.60 looks okay
$0.80 looks good
$1.10 looks better
$1.30 looks great
$1.50 looks best


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> Those are all cost per mile to run the vehicle?


Derps


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Derps


Minimum estimate.



Heisenburger said:


> Just like (UberX):
> 
> $0.60 looks okay
> $0.80 looks good
> ...


Well well look what you have listed . $1 Falls right to the minimum estimated amount per mile.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Seriously Heisenberg? If you're making more than a dollar per mile estimated what the hell are you even worried about?

But if you're making below it, wouldn't that strive to make you hit a mark That's a little bit better so you can make.. more money? Which I do believe is the reason why every one of us are doing this.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

W00dbutcher said:


> Seriously Heisenberg? If you're making more than a dollar per mile estimated what the hell are you even worried about?
> 
> But if you're making below it, wouldn't that strive to make you hit a mark That's a little bit better so you can make.. more money? Which I do believe is the reason why every one of us are doing this.


Will you understand that better if I say all this in Farsi?


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> $0.60 looks meh
> $0.80 looks okay
> _*$1.00 looks good*_
> Anything above this point really doesn't have a place in this conversation because like stated from the beginning this would be the minimum estimate.


FIFY


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Also seeing how you say we are bleeting about prices from 1970, have you not looked at the prices that Uber is paying? They are from the 1970s! So of course a $1 would be in League with 1970s prices, To make money based on 1970s prices.


----------



## Emptynesst (6 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> If you believe that's my average, then produce some evidence here Skippy.


Provide me evidence that you need evidence .


----------



## Emptynesst (6 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> Just like (UberX):
> 
> $0.60 looks okay
> $0.80 looks good
> ...


G


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Emptynesst said:


> Guess I need lessons from you , how did I do on this one ? 9.5 hrs at 26 mpg avg gas was $5 per gallon average , total miles were 550 , all rides are not created equally , as I’d take 1 of these per day at less than a dollar a mile . On xl even , however my market avg is $2.75 per mile driven door to door , how uuuuuuuuu dooooin , Heisen BOOGERS ? I don’t count the $300 cash tip I negotiated before starting the trip , as i don’t do long as deadhead rides without cash up front !
> View attachment 684085
> View attachment 684085


Heisenberg will argue that it's in x trip so it does not pertain to this conversation.

Regardless of what Heisenberg says good ****ing job


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

I am in the process of binging "Breaking Bad". The whole word, the name ... the IDEA of "Heisenberg" has taken on a recently re-acquired trigger for me. Walter White was a PURE capitalist. PURE capitalist. He came to it late in life ... but he arrived there - and he's a natural.
He believes that "I don't use that stuff. But if YOU want to use it, I will provide the _highest_ quality, the purest product for the best price. You are going to know what you're buying, and _be willing _to pay for it."

I just wanted to remind you who the original, the OG "Heisenberg" is.
A Capitalist pig.


----------



## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

UberBastid said:


> I am in the process of binging "Breaking Bad". The whole word, the name ... the IDEA of "Heisenberg" has taken on a recently re-acquired trigger for me. Walter White was a PURE capitalist. PURE capitalist. He came to it late in life ... but he arrived there - and he's a natural.
> He believes that "I don't use that stuff. But if YOU want to use it, I will provide the _highest_ quality, the purest product for the best price. You are going to know what you're buying, and _be willing _to pay for it."
> 
> I just wanted to remind you who the original, the OG "Heisenberg" is.
> A Capitalist pig.


So a capitalist pig would want to make as much money possible providing a service or Goods to individuals for purchase.

Would this not include a minimum price point that not only pays for the services or Goods provided, but also guarantees making money off of every sale?


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> So a capitalist pig would want to make as much money possible providing a service or Goods to individuals for purchase.
> 
> Would this not include a minimum price point that not only pays for the services or Goods provided, but also guarantees making money off of every sale?


Have you ever read the "Firangi Rules of Acquisition"?
EVERYTHING you need to know about Capitalism (with a capital C) is in it. There are different authors, but 'The Rules of Acquisition" are the same. It is as valid a document as The Constitution from a civilization far more advanced than our own.


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> guarantees making money off of every sale?


I'm thinking of this. Uber heavily utilizes this tactic.

*



Rationale Behind Loss Leader Pricing

Click to expand...

*


> At first glance, it may seem that such a pricing strategy would destroy the profitability of a store. However, the loss leader pricing strategy actually works quite effectively if executed properly. The rationale behind the strategy is the belief that pricing certain products below cost will draw more traffic from other competitors and, therefore, ultimately generate more sales on other products. Businesses attract new customers with an extremely cheap product or service in the hope of building a larger customer base and increasing long-term recurring revenue. For example, consider businesses that use “introductory” pricing for their products and services. Several cable and phone companies offer low rates for their services in an attempt to “capture” the customer and ultimately cross-sell other products and services. Although in this particular example the service may not be priced below cost, the rationale is essentially the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

W00dbutcher said:


> If 18 cents a mile is your CPM, back up your statement with an absolute breakdown of how you came to that amount.


I won't bore you with the entire image. Suffice it to say that I avoid two of the largest costs of ownership/operation:

Financing expense
Depreciation expense


----------



## Emptynesst (6 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> I won't bore you with the entire image. Suffice it to say that I avoid two of the largest costs of ownership/operation:
> 
> Financing expense
> Depreciation expense


Too late , I’m bored of you already


----------

