# Taxes and commute miles



## MikeB

I've been commuting to my Uber work site 40 miles one way for a while and racked up tons of non deductible miles last year. I know generally these commute miles are not deductible.
But, maybe there's some special way to include them in schedule C as deductions?


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## marketmark

Turn the app on when you leave your house and maybe you'll get a ride on your way to your fishing hole, now they are deductible.


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## MikeB

marketmark said:


> Turn the app on when you leave your house and maybe you'll get a ride on your way to your fishing hole, now they are deductible.


I quit Ubering on.


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## marketmark

As far as the IRS knows, your app was on when you were making that drive.
or not, your money...


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## Fauxknight

Your place of business is your house, there are no commuting miles.


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## MikeB

Fauxknight said:


> Your place of business is your house, there are no commuting miles.


Unfortunately, that's not what folks from the H&R Block said...


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## Tristan Zier

Few things here:

1. If you're providing driving services, your services are provided outside of your house, so you cannot claim your home as an office location.
2. Technically, if you don't have an official office location (including your home), your "office" is the metro area where you normally work. That means your commute to your area cannot be written off.

So there are two main ways around this:
1. Perform work in different areas periodically to establish a paper trail that you worked in other areas.
2. Attempt to get rides on your way to the area where you normally work - you would then say you were open to taking rides anywhere along the way, but were also simultaneously driving to an area where you thought you would get more rids. You would likely have to actually provide some rides in order to make this a valid argument (e.g. you couldn't just leave the app on and decline any rides until you get to the area you wanted to go.)

To marketmark's point - yes, the IRS will have a hard time proving it. But the burden of proof is on YOU, not the IRS. So if they don't think you have sufficient proof to make the argument, they will default to denying the expense.


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## LAuberX

I turn the app on before I start the engine.

All miles are "work".

H&R block not as good as TurboTax home and business edition apparently.


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## Tristan Zier

LAuberX said:


> I turn the app on before I start the engine.
> 
> All miles are "work".
> 
> H&R block not as good as TurboTax home and business edition apparently.


Again, you'll have to prove those miles are work. Which means if you're just using it to hide your commute, you'll have a hard time explaining that to the IRS. If you live and work in SF (for example) though and are turning on your app when you get in your car, then there's no commute and they're all work since you actually start accepting rides from that location.

H&R Block and TurboTax are two options for doing your year end taxes. One is not "better" than the other from the perspective of helping you write off expenses - they're both subject to the same tax rules of the IRS.


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## marketmark

Tristan Zier said:


> 1. If you're providing driving services, your services are provided outside of your house, so you cannot claim your home as an office location.


Definitely can't write off anything home office related... Not even worth trying.



Tristan Zier said:


> 2. Technically, if you don't have an official office location (including your home), your "office" is the metro area where you normally work. That means your commute to your area cannot be written off.


I do occasionally get rides in out of the way areas and always have the app on when driving this car.
My argument is that the entire bay area, including my neighborhood, is where I normally work.



Tristan Zier said:


> So there are two main ways around this:
> 1. Perform work in different areas periodically to establish a paper trail that you worked in other areas.
> 2. Attempt to get rides on your way to the area where you normally work - you would then say you were open to taking rides anywhere along the way, but were also simultaneously driving to an area where you thought you would get more rids. You would likely have to actually provide some rides in order to make this a valid argument (e.g. you couldn't just leave the app on and decline any rides until you get to the area you wanted to go.)


I have booked rides everywhere from Monterey/Salinas all the way up to Marin/Santa Rosa and from Santa Cruz out to Walnut Creek.



Tristan Zier said:


> To marketmark's point - yes, the IRS will have a hard time proving it. But the burden of proof is on YOU, not the IRS. So if they don't think you have sufficient proof to make the argument, they will default to denying the expense.


Probably stretching the allowable mileage a bit, but it is better to count the expense and risk them denying it vs not even trying to count it in the first place...


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## MikeB

Tristan Zier said:


> 2. Attempt to get rides on your way to the area where you normally work - you would then say you were open to taking rides anywhere along the way, but were also simultaneously driving to an area where you thought you would get more rids. You would likely have to actually provide some rides in order to make this a valid argument (e.g. you couldn't just leave the app on and decline any rides until you get to the area you wanted to go.)
> 
> To marketmark's point - yes, the IRS will have a hard time proving it. But the burden of proof is on YOU, not the IRS. So if they don't think you have sufficient proof to make the argument, they will default to denying the expense.


Specifically, I've attempted that, but found that if you're going to be in the City by the commute hours and leave the app on the chance that your rides will get you there is next to none.
I've been lucky once and the other time the overshot was about 50 miles south of the target. So, most of the time the app was off and it was a long commute to and fro the work site. That's what these pros from H&R at Uber-sponsored seminar this week stated: the commute is not deductible. They said that the commute of a self-employed driver is no different from commute of a W-2 employee. Of course, one can do on his taxes whatever he wants, but the chance to get audited by the IRS increases exponentially.


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## marketmark

@MikeB

Where in the bay area are you that it is worth driving into sf with the app off before starting?
I have found that I actually net more outside of sf proper than in town...


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## LAuberX

Prove what? 

There is no commute. I am working if the car is moving. There is no set location to commute to. Uber rides begin and end everywhere.

App on = I'm working.

Let's not over complicate this.


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## MikeB

In the valley, close to Clayton. I couldn't get much money working in this area and drove to catch the morning commute with surges in the City, then I would get locked up there for a day and do the evening commute until ramps and Bridge open up to get back.


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## marketmark

Clayton is a bit far out...
I would probably do the same as you but leave the app on hoping for an airport run from out there or someone heading into sf. Never know...
I have found that Southern Marin, SF, and the peninsula down to San Jose to be the best areas around here.
I actually was fortunate once driving through Concord. Picked up a British guy heading to SFO as I was trying to get to Palo Alto.


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## Allnight-AZ

MikeB said:


> Specifically, I've attempted that, but found that if you're going to be in the City by the commute hours and leave the app on the chance that your rides will get you there is next to none.
> I've been lucky once and the other time the overshot was about 50 miles south of the target. So, most of the time the app was off and it was a long commute to and fro the work site. That's what these pros from H&R at Uber-sponsored seminar this week stated: the commute is not deductible. They said that the commute of a self-employed driver is no different from commute of a W-2 employee. Of course, one can do on his taxes whatever he wants, but the chance to get audited by the IRS increases exponentially.


First off. Get away from H&R. Find an independent accountant. If you are HAVING to report to Ubers office to start then they are correct. You don't. You are "looking for a ping" so the mileage will be counted. I personally have a log in my car that gives the date, start and finish odometer reading. Loaded miles and deadhead miles. I keep a receipt and log every bottle of water I purchase while out and will write off the empty miles as well as meals, water I purchase while out.


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## MikeB

marketmark said:


> Clayton is a bit far out...
> I would probably do the same as you but leave the app on hoping for an airport run from out there or someone heading into sf. Never know...
> I have found that Southern Marin, SF, and the peninsula down to San Jose to be the best areas around here.
> I actually was fortunate once driving through Concord. Picked up a British guy heading to SFO as I was trying to get to Palo Alto.


Lucky is the key. I was lucky to get someone from Lafayette to SFO on Saturday late morning when I was heading the the City for a day. I was lucky to get someone from Marriott Hotel on Union Square to Lafayette in the evening when I was getting back home, but routinely I worked the City for a full day shift and the way to do it was to get there by 6:45 AM with the app off.


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## MikeB

Allnight-AZ said:


> First off. Get away from H&R. Find an independent accountant. If you are HAVING to report to Ubers office to start then they are correct. You don't. You are "looking for a ping" so the mileage will be counted. I personally have a log in my car that gives the date, start and finish odometer reading. Loaded miles and deadhead miles. I keep a receipt and log every bottle of water I purchase while out and will write off the empty miles as well as meals, water I purchase while out.


I'm not using H&R, I use a CPA with 20 years behind her back at the IRS. Unfortunately, I didn't keep log. I didn't know the rules when I started and Uber doesn't tell you shit. I also bought water, but you can ether deduct the miles, or water (expenses such as gas, maintenance etc.). It is either: miles, i.e. depreciation, or expenses.


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## Allnight-AZ

MikeB said:


> I'm not using H&R, I use a CPA with 20 years behind her back at the IRS. Unfortunately, I didn't keep log. I didn't know the rules when I started and Uber doesn't tell you shit. I also bought water, but you can ether deduct the miles, or water (expenses such as gas, maintenance etc.). It is either: miles, i.e. depreciation, or expenses.


Well, then I just fell in love with my CPA. I'm able to deduct all of it. Now I do have a business license and am also an S-Corp. So that may be the difference. who will ever know for sure.


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## MikeB

Allnight-AZ said:


> Now I do have a business license and am also an S-Corp. So that may be the difference.


That's the key.


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## UberNorthDfw

Uber is not a job - you are a Independent Contractor there is no commuting. All you business miles are deductable.


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## Rich Brunelle

I agree with the practice of turning on my app while in my driveway and not turning off until I return to my driveway. I have often received pings while sitting in my driveway in San Leandro and worked my way from San Leandro into the City and back. Sometimes I do not get anything until I reach the City but that is rare. In Contra Costa County, I always get activity around Walnut Creek/Concord. If I end up out there I sit for a minute near Bart and usually get enough to stay busy out there for a few hours. I have worked as far north as Sacramento and as far south as San Jose, both providing a few hours of activity to keep me busy until having to dead head back part of the way. In the south do not forget Fremont which is full of Techies that love Uber. If you get slow, look to hang out at the Bart station for a few minutes until it picks up. In the East Bay, Oakland and Berkeley are good for significant activity anytime but really good for events. The Fox theater and UC Berkeley are always good spots. Not a lot of attention is given to Foster City area but even it produces a few good hits if you take the San Mateo bridge across to the City. Traveling the El Camino from South Bay towards the City sometimes gives good activity but not enough to make it a habit. I rarely found activity in Richmond to Vallejo but the has to be some, I just never found much. 

As for the mileage question, you are a driver that can work across City limits which poses some restrictions on Taxi Cabs, why would you even consider driving a commute distance? If your wheels are turning anywhere in the San Francisco Bay Area there are potential Riders seeking you. Riders going to the City are always there looking to get from wherever to the City. Never dead head into the City, doing so wastes time, money, and mileage. Even from Clayton, somewhere enroute there is a potential fare to pick up. The areas that are slow will be less slow if the Riders believe there are cars working the area. In the really slow areas I have even given my phone number to riders telling them if they cannot find a ride because nobody answers their ping to call me and I will work my way their way. Sure I waste a couple miles but it helps to create activity that will pick up as time goes by and people know we are available. Although it had at least a chance of it not being a negative money trip before the rates were reduced, now doing so is probably just wasting money.


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## UberPissed

Hello - tax attorney here ... a few things ... commercial preparers - be selective - 50 states regulate barbers; 4 states regulate return preparers. Anyone on this thread could go hang a shingle and start preparing returns (see Loving v. Comm'r). 

Technically you could recreate a written mileage log. The uber app shows your first trip of the day. You can calculate the start location and determine the distance from when you first click 'on' which is probably at your home or office (if you have a regular job). You could reconstruct your mileage that way. But the better plan is to have a mileage-in, mileage-out log, with the beginning/ending odometer readings. I typically use one of these in excel, and have multiple columns in the middle to allocate the mileage between various categories (uber, work-reimbursable, work-non-reimbursable, commuting, charitable, etc). 

Also, I would caution users on this thread to avoid saying things like "....as far as the IRS is concerned." If you are going to commit tax fraud, don't advertise it.


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## MikeB

UberPissed said:


> Technically you could recreate a written mileage log. The uber app shows your first trip of the day. You can calculate the start location and determine the distance from when you first click 'on' which is probably at your home or office (if you have a regular job). You could reconstruct your mileage that way.


To recreate mileage log is to have a back up in case of an audit?
In my specific case, the amount of commute miles exceeded the paid miles. Since commute miles are non-deductible doesn't the claiming of it as deductible expenses i.e. opened app and looking for fares drastically increase the chance of being audited?
Thank you!


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## UberPissed

If you post a loss, probably. 

But - you shouldn't report income / deductions or not report income / deductions out of fear of the consequences. You should claim all miles that you are entitled to claim. Last year, I took in 6k in fares, and posted a tax loss of $1,000.


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## MikeB

UberPissed said:


> If you post a loss, probably.
> 
> But - you shouldn't report income / deductions or not report income / deductions out of fear of the consequences. You should claim all miles that you are entitled to claim. Last year, I took in 6k in fares, and posted a tax loss of $1,000.


That's is a million dollar question. The pros from H&R stated it quite planly, as I wrote above: commute miles are not a deductible expenses on schedule C.
If I would claim these miles as an expense I am afraid that chances of an audit grow exponentially.


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## Fuzzyelvis

Allnight-AZ said:


> First off. Get away from H&R. Find an independent accountant. If you are HAVING to report to Ubers office to start then they are correct. You don't. You are "looking for a ping" so the mileage will be counted. I personally have a log in my car that gives the date, start and finish odometer reading. Loaded miles and deadhead miles. I keep a receipt and log every bottle of water I purchase while out and will write off the empty miles as well as meals, water I purchase while out.


you can't just deduct all your meals and water because you're in your car.


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## Allnight-AZ

Fuzzyelvis said:


> you can't just deduct all your meals and water because you're in your car.


Not because I'm in my car. It's an expense of doing business.


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## Desert Driver

MikeB said:


> I've been commuting to my Uber work site 40 miles one way for a while and racked up tons of non deductible miles last year. I know generally these commute miles are not deductible.
> But, maybe there's some special way to include them in schedule C as deductions?


If you make under $250K a year, your chance of getting audited is 1 in 80,000. So, take ALL your commute miles. You're on the job, after all. I've been doing tis for the past 155K miles. I take every last one because I keep a log.


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## Fuzzyelvis

Allnight-AZ said:


> Not because I'm in my car. It's an expense of doing business.


it's not a business expense you have to eat no matter what there are rules about how far away from your home you have to be and so on I'm not going to get into a big discussion about it just look it up at irs.gov


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## CaptainJackLA

Allnight-AZ said:


> Well, then I just fell in love with my CPA. I'm able to deduct all of it. Now I do have a business license and am also an S-Corp. So that may be the difference. who will ever know for sure.


Same here for another business. It will all blend into the same Schedule C form.

Make a spreadsheet with miles, water, etc spent on ANYTHING that you bought for the purpose of Uber. Water, unbrella, phone chargers, cleaning supplies [back seat barf], notebooks. It all adds up, especially the mileage expense.


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## UberPissed

Meals are pretty much never deductible - especially in this line of work, unless you spring for a meal for a passenger, then you can get a deduction for it, and its reduced by 50% anyway. 

I also dispute the assertion that chance of audit is 1/80,000. Much higher for cash based Schedule C taxpayers (4%) especially if they claim EITC.

The key is to document as you go, and make sure its "ordinary and necessary" as broadly defined in IRC Section 162.


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## MikeB

CaptainJackLA said:


> Same here for another business. It will all blend into the same Schedule C form.
> 
> Make a spreadsheet with miles, water, etc spent on ANYTHING that you bought for the purpose of Uber. Water, unbrella, phone chargers, cleaning supplies [back seat barf], notebooks. It all adds up, especially the mileage expense.


I don't think IRS allows to deduct expenses AND depreciation of a vehicle based on 56 cents per mile allowance for 2014. It is EITHER the expenses (gas, maintenance, water, washes, repairs, etc.) OR the miles. Can't do both.


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## Fauxknight

MikeB said:


> I don't think IRS allows to deduct expenses AND depreciation of a vehicle based on 56 cents per mile allowance for 2014. It is EITHER the expenses (gas, maintenance, water, washes, repairs, etc.) OR the miles. Can't do both.


The mileage deduction is just that, it is not a depreciation value, but it theoretically can include depreciation. Since the mileage deduction only includes expenses related to your vehicle you can also claim other expenses not related to your vehicle, such as water for customers and your business phone.

Trying to claim meals on the other hand, that's a bit much. It is theoretically possible though if you have either traveled extremely far or are hosting a group of people trying to get them into Ubering.


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## MikeB

Fauxknight said:


> The mileage deduction is just that, it is not a depreciation value.


It's not "just that". There's is not in IRS code deduction in Schedule C for miles driven being "just that". The 56 cents per mile for 2014, or 57.5 cents per mile for 2015 is *the depreciation* of an average vehicle driven by a self-employed filer is what allowed by the IRS for income tax purposes.


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## Tim In Cleveland

MikeB said:


> Unfortunately, that's not what folks from the H&R Block said...


 YES! If you REGULARLY go to an office location, commuting to it is not deductible. If you have no regular office location, all travel is deductible. As others have said, turn the app in your driveway and then all movement is deductible.
It's mileage or actual expenses. Mileage includes normal maintenance and gas. It does not include water, charging cords or snacks. Those are extra deductions. You should also deduct legal fees, i.e. fighting a ticket.
You can use the home office deduction if you have a home office. You must clear out a room or area and dedicate it to being a home office. If you're audited, and they find non-work related things there, your deduction will be tossed. There is no reason an Uber driver can't have a home office. Do you email Uber, check your trip and ratings log, watch training videos, post on THIS WORK FORUM? These are all work related activities. You are learning to do your job at this forum. Most drivers can justify a home office, but again, it must be dedicated to work. Your living room is not a home office.


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## MikeB

Tim In Cleveland said:


> YES! If you REGULARLY go to an office location, commuting to it is not deductible. If you have no regular office location, all travel is deductible. As others have said, turn the app in your driveway and then all movement is deductible.
> It's mileage or actual expenses. Mileage includes normal maintenance and gas. It does not include water, charging cords or snacks. Those are extra deductions. You should also deduct legal fees, i.e. fighting a ticket.
> You can use the home office deduction if you have a home office. You must clear out a room or area and dedicate it to being a home office. If you're audited, and they find non-work related things there, your deduction will be tossed. There is no reason an Uber driver can't have a home office. Do you email Uber, check your trip and ratings log, watch training videos, post on THIS WORK FORUM? These are all work related activities. You are learning to do your job at this forum. Most drivers can justify a home office, but again, it must be dedicated to work. Your living room is not a home office.


1. What do you mean by "Mileage includes normal maintenance and gas"?
2. Fighting tickets? What about paying these tickets?
3. How do you deduct n home office expenses? Cost of computer, depreciation if it on an annual basic, or your rent?


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## Fauxknight

MikeB said:


> It's not "just that". There's is not in IRS code deduction in Schedule C for miles driven being "just that". The 56 cents per mile for 2014, or 57.5 cents per mile for 2015 is *the depreciation* of an average vehicle driven by a self-employed filer is what allowed by the IRS for income tax purposes.


Don't call the mileage deduction "depreciation" because it includes non-depreciation items like gas, maintenance, and repairs. The term depreciation specifically only refers to the reduced value of the item, in this case your vehicle. When I say "just that" I mean the mileage deduction is supposed to include all vehicle *mileage* based expenses, it's in the wording of the deduction itself, hence it being referred to as a mileage deduction, anything that falls outside of that can still be deducted separately.

You have the option to not use the mileage based deduction and instead claim all vehicle expenses individually (depreciation, gas, preventative maintenance, repairs), but neither option forfeits the ability to claim non-vehicle related expenses...the IRS makes no notion that driving your vehicle more miles makes your phone bill higher.


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## Fauxknight

MikeB said:


> Mileage is DEPRECIATION.


Incorrect, the proper way to state that is that mileage _causes_ depreciation on your vehicle, so do accidents, time, and overall excessive wear. The link you provided has nothing to do with the $.56/mile expense. When figuring out depreciation, more than just mileage is taken into account. The problem is that you keep interposing the mileage expense with depreciation, when in fact they are two entirely separate entities. I'm tired of trying to explain this, so, one last time, you can do your taxes in one of two ways:

1. Expense your mileage at $.56 and then claim all non-vehicle related expenses as well.

2. Do not expense your mileage, and instead expense all vehicle costs to the exact number (I hope you have a lot of gas receipts), as well as then calculating the depreciation on your vehicle and making that an expense, then claim all your non-vehicle related expenses.

*In #1 depreciation is automatically considered to be a part of, but not the entirety of, the $.56/mile. In #2 depreciation is it's own entity and must be calculated out.*

In both cases you get to expense all non-vehicle related expenses, neither one prevents you from doing so.

To make things complicated I specifically used the word expense instead of deduction, as a deduction is what a W2 employee uses against their already reported taxable income number, where as a 1099 employee uses expenses to reduce their gross income to determine what their final taxable income should be. For the most part deductions and expenses behave in exactly the same way, but they are technically two entirely separate entities.

To make things even more complicated there are restrictions on when you can use the $.56/mile expense number, fortunately the chance of you having to worry about them _should_ be 0. For anyone who falls into those restrictions then #2 is the only way you are allowed to do your expenses.


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## MikeB

Fauxknight said:


> Incorrect


Back to original question: I've racked up tons of miles committing to and from the work site 60 miles a day for 125 shifts with the app off. Is there any way to include these dead miles into mileage expense?


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## Tim In Cleveland

MikeB said:


> Back to original question: I've racked up tons of miles committing to and from the work site 60 miles a day for 125 shifts with the app off. Is there any way to include these dead miles into mileage expense?


You're not listening. YES YOU SHOULD DEDUCT ALL THOSE MILES. Your home is your base when you're an independent contractor. When you leave it, you are travelling for work and should deduct it. Start your mileage log when you get into the vehicle and turn your Uber app on as well. Just because you choose to move the vehicle to a busier area does not make it non-deductible commuting miles.



MikeB said:


> 1. What do you mean by "Mileage includes normal maintenance and gas"?
> 2. Fighting tickets? What about paying these tickets?
> 3. How do you deduct n home office expenses? Cost of computer, depreciation if it on an annual basic, or your rent?


1) You can't take mileage AND deduct oil changes, repairs, gas and depreciation. It's one or the other. However, you can still take water, snacks, cell phone cords as separate deductions.
2) All work legal expenses should be deductible.
3) Computers are supposed to be depreciated over 5 years. You get to deduct the % of your rent/mortgage as well as property taxes, repairs and utilities that is equal to your office space. I have 3 floors in my home all at 600 sq ft each. I use 200 sq ft of my basement for my office. 200/1800 = 1/9th. I deduct 1/9th of all those bills for my home office.


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## scrurbscrud

MikeB said:


> Unfortunately, that's not what folks from the H&R Block said...


It is if you app on.


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## MikeB

JeffB said:


> Wait in your home until you get the first request. After the drop off, go anywhere you want as long as you are still in the service area and you leave the app turned on to accept requests. Leave the app turned on until you arrive in your driveway at the end of your driving shift. All those miles are deductible. I AM NOT A TAX PROFESSIONAL!


If you need to be in your usual work site 30 miles away from home at a certain time you cannot leave your house with an app on, because you will never make it there on time, nor will you even get there.
If you leave the app on when you're heading 30 miles back home after your shift you will either never make it home, or your cancellation rate goes through the roof and you can be deactivated.


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## MikeB

Tim In Cleveland said:


> You're not listening. YES YOU SHOULD DEDUCT ALL THOSE MILES. Your home is your base when you're an independent contractor. When you leave it, you are travelling for work and should deduct it. Start your mileage log when you get into the vehicle and turn your Uber app on as well. Just because you choose to move the vehicle to a busier area does not make it non-deductible commuting miles.


I am, but you are not reading what I'm saying:
H&R Block tax pros specifically answered this question contrary to what you are saying. NO, you cannot deduct commute miles. This is verbatim what they said: "You, an IC, or self-employed driver are no different from a W-2 employee commutting from San Jose daily to San Francisco to work in his office. He (the W-2 employee) cannot use his travel, or commute expenses from home to work, neither can you.".
As far as leaving the app on to travel 30 miles to pick up your first ride of the day, they were also asked this question. The answer was: it is still a commute, unless you have a paid raid.
Besides, it's not possible to travel 30 miles to your job site with an app on and planning on being there by the time you have to be there and ignore the pings or answer the pings. Ignoring them will get you deactivated, answering them will side-track you from your usual route to work and you may not even able to make it there. Besides, I'm not Ubering on anymore and I'm only working on my 2014 taxes now to offset the earning Uber pinned on me, so it is what it is: I traveled 60 miles a day for over 120 times to Uber in the City.


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## scrurbscrud

MikeB said:


> I am, but you are not reading what I'm saying:
> H&R Block tax pros specifically answered this question contrary to what you are saying. NO, you cannot deduct commute miles. This is verbatim what they said: "You, an IC, or self-employed driver are no different from a W-2 employee commutting from San Jose daily to San Francisco to work in his office. He (the W-2 employee) cannot use his travel, or commute expenses from home to work, neither can you.".
> As far as leaving the app on to travel 30 miles to pick up your first ride of the day, they were also asked this question. The answer was: it is still a commute, unless you have a paid raid.
> Besides, it's not possible to travel 30 miles in your job side with an app on and planning on being there by the time you have to be there and ignore the pings or answer the pings. Ignoring them will get you deactivated, answering them will side truck you from your usual route and you may not even able to make it there. Besides, I'm not Ubering on anymore and I'm only working on my 2014 taxes now to offset the earning Uber pinned on me, so it is what it is: I traveled 60 miles a day for over 120 times to Uber in the City.


The HnR people are full of crap. If you are app on you are on the job, even if you have to clock dead miles to find the paying part.


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## MikeB

scrurbscrud said:


> The HnR people are full of crap. If you are app on you are on the job, even if you have to clock dead miles to find the paying part.


They were answering questions of Uber drivers at an Uber-sponsored event. Why should I trust you more than them? My app was off. It could not have been on, because I would not have made it to my work site by the time I had to be there. These are commute miles.


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## scrurbscrud

MikeB said:


> They were answering questions of Uber drivers at an Uber-sponsored event. Why should I trust you more than them? *My app was off. It could not have been on, because I would not have made it to my work site by the time I had to be there. These are commute miles*.


*I agree.* Just sayin' that app on miles are deductible.

This is where they are haywire:

"As far as* leaving the app on* to travel 30 miles to pick up your first ride of the day, they were also asked this question. The answer was: it *is *still *a commute*, unless you have a paid raid."

Which is bullshit. If you are app on you are on the job, working. There is no 'commute.' They are deductible miles looking for paid miles.


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## MikeB

JeffB said:


> This work
> 
> Was this worksite 30 minutes away, the one that you HAD TO BE THERE at a certain time, your worksite for your primary (non-rideshare driving) job? If so then of course you can't claim commuting miles to get there. You were commuting to another job. But if you decided that you are going to drive rideshare 8 hours at your preferred location named Point B and you live 30 minutes away at Point A, then as long as you turn the app on, accept requests when driving to point B, and are still in the coverage area the entire time, then all the miles for the entire 8 hours should be deductible. Turn the app on... you are working. Turn it off... you are not. Very simple. But if you HAD TO BE THERE at a certain time then you must be talking about commuting to your "real" job, right?


No, I was commuting to Uber on in the City. I've found that being there before 7am gives me the best chance to work surges during the morning commute. It was an Uber job I was coming to. The app was off, because if it would have been on I would had to take the pings and doing so would not get me to the City by the time I had to be there.


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## brikosig

When you leave your house..... The app is on. Period.... say nothing else to the tax man. When the app is on.... you're officially working. PERIOD.
The only "commuting miles" that you should have as an uber/lyft driver.... are on the soles of your shoes when you walk from your back door to your car.


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## MikeB

brikosig said:


> When you leave your house..... The app is on. Period.... say nothing else to the tax man. When the app is on.... you're officially working. PERIOD.
> The only "commuting miles" that you should have as an uber/lyft driver.... are on the soles of your shoes when you walk from your back door to your car.


That's great. Although multiplies chance to get audited, because doing so saves me 7 grand from being taxed but triples the amount of miles Uber reported to IRS.


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## Older Chauffeur

What's the difference between an Uber driver getting to a pick up point and a plumber/electrician/gardener who keeps his work truck at home getting to his customer's location? For that matter, do you think limo services track commuting miles where they have only a couple of cars and the drivers work from home? My CPA has me track miles to client's locations, which are then deducted as a vehicle expense.


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## brikosig

MikeB said:


> That's great. Although multiplies chance to get audited, because doing so saves me 7 grand from being taxed but triples the amount of miles Uber reported to IRS.


Uber does NOT report your miles to the IRS..... the only forms that uber sends to the irs directly is the 1099-K form... and there is no mileage info on it.

I assume you're referring to the "Tax Summery" that you see when you log into your uber account online??? That's only for you... to help you + your accountant do your taxes... that info is not sent to the irs.


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## MikeB

Older Chauffeur said:


> What's the difference between an Uber driver getting to a pick up point and a plumber/electrician/gardener who keeps his work truck at home getting to his customer's location? For that matter, do you think limo services track commuting miles where they have only a couple of cars and the drivers work from home? My CPA has me track miles to client's locations, which are then deducted as a vehicle expense.


I think the difference is in the status of the filer. The limo driver, as a business entity vs. Uber X driver as an individual tax payer. Although I am not a 100% on it, but what appears from the Q&A session with H&R folks and input from this forum.


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## brikosig

A bit of side advice.... HnR has a professional relationship with uber... their tax professionals are not "CPA's.... 90% of their tax outlets do not have a cpa in residence. Their "professionals" work from a tax handbook in the same way that you assemble your kid's toy's on christmas eve. Bluntly put... HnR tax "professionals" Suck. (Years ago they screwed up 2 of my tax filings.) Find a mom + pop, reasonably priced tax accountant in your city/town..... they'll give you 10X the service for not much more money.

...my 2 cents.... good luck to you.


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## MikeB

brikosig said:


> A bit of side advice.... HnR has a professional relationship with uber... their tax professionals are not "CPA's.... 90% of their tax outlets do not have a cpa in residence. Their "professionals" work from a tax handbook in the same way that you assemble your kid's toy's on christmas eve. Bluntly put... HnR tax "professionals" Suck. (Years ago they screwed up 2 of my tax filings.) Find a mom + pop, reasonably priced tax accountant in your city/town..... they'll give you 10X the service for not much more money.
> 
> ...my 2 cents.... good luck to you.


Thanks man! I use REALLY good CPA with IRS experience. It's just I didn't record my miles while Ubering on and now I've read that in order to use mileage deduction (which is 27,000 miles in my case) I have to have a miles log. To compile a log of 3500 trips takes a little time LOL. So, I'm sitting all worried about doing it right.


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## brikosig

MikeB said:


> Thanks man! I use REALLY good CPA with IRS experience. It's just I didn't record my miles while Ubering on and now I've read that in order to use mileage deduction (which is 27,000 miles in my case) I have to have a miles log. To compile a log of 3500 trips takes a little time LOL. So, I'm sitting all worried about doing it right.


Oh... I see... you don't have a log... yea, that does kinda suck for you, to now have to do it in hindsight.

You're never going to be completely accurate now. ....here's what I'd do if I were you.
Over the next week record your TOTAL driven miles for EACH NIGHT with your car's odometer. Then next week when you get your weekly summery it will list the Pax miles..... Match your Pax miles with each night's Total miles that you recorded. It will almost always be a consistent percentage of your total miles. 
Then... take that percentage and use it as the factor to determine each of your total weekly miles for the past year.


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## MikeB

JeffB said:


> A mileage log can be created using an Excel spreadsheet and your maintenance receipts. Those receipts have the date and mileage of your car for each maintenance event. Create a worksheet with 365 days/dates in the first column. Create columns for rideshare miles, personal miles and any other categories you need. Start with the dates and mileage figures from the maintenance receipts and enter them into your spreadsheet on the appropriate dates. Look back at your Uber/Lift summaries and create a mileage log for each day of the year. Also use input taken from any day planners or schedules you have for your other job and personal life. It will take a couple hours to do but it should be adequately accurate. If it gets you all 27K of those miles it will be the most valuable couple of hours you spend all year. You don't need to log 3500 trips... just a daily entry should be enough.


I'm using Excel spreadsheet. and entering miles for each trip, because these miles are provided by Uber. But, the miles between the trips are not, so I'm clicking on the map with a trip to estimate the miles between the fares. I only had two maintenance, so I don't know how these miles records would help me to compile the mileage log?
Also, I'm not clear on how would I do each day miles log in two hours, when it takes me almost two hours to do a couple of days log with 40-50 raids?


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## LAuberX

MikeB said:


> That's is a million dollar question. The pros from H&R stated it quite planly, as I wrote above: commute miles are not a deductible expenses on schedule C.
> If I would claim these miles as an expense I am afraid that chances of an audit grow exponentially.


Mike, there is no commute. we don't go to any one place to work. App is on, You are "working"

Uber on!


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## marketmark

Estimate your miles and fill out your taxes.
Send them in.
In the rare chance you get audited, go back and create your log.
Going forward, track your miles.
No use doing all that work for nothing...


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## Uberdawg

MikeB said:


> H&R Block tax pros


Now that's on oxymoron if I ever heard one.

Like marketmark said, figure a normal ratio of dead to paid miles, multiply that by Ubers number and use that figure. Print off your trips logs and pay statements, put them in a folder marked 2014.
Go have a cocktail and move on. If they send you an audit letter, go back and make a mileage log.

Don't overthink the process.


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## Older Chauffeur

MikeB said:


> I think the difference is in the status of the filer. The limo driver, as a business entity vs. Uber X driver as an individual tax payer. Although I am not a 100% on it, but what appears from the Q&A session with H&R folks and input from this forum.


If done properly, you should be a business entity just like a limo driver. I have a business license issued by the city in which I live. I am self employed and pay taxes as such. You are not just an individual tax payer, if you do it right. The failure on your part to keep a mileage log as those miles accumulated, does put you in a tight spot. Too bad you didn't have an in depth conversation with your really good CPA when you started with Uber.


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## twill

The OP, if I correctly understand the spirit of the question, asked whether there is a legitimate way to deduct commute miles. There have been two types of responses. Many of them have suggested that you just consider all miles as work miles if the app is turned on. But that is not what the tax law says.

The IRS gives an example of someone who cleans homes. This individual obviously has a "home office" from which s/he books clients, keeps records, and perhaps stores an inventory of cleaning supplies. But the IRS says that this is not a "work location." The cleaner's trip from home to the first work location of the day is a commute; trips from location to location are work; the trip from the last cleaning location back home at the end of the day is a commute. The fact that cleaning supplies are loaded in the car when the cleaner leaves the driveway does not change this.

So those who say to just turn on the Uber app before leaving your driveway are NOT answering the question accurately according to the tax laws. That may be how you operate ... and perhaps you can get away with it. (Then again, perhaps not, if you are audited.) The fact is, as the OP indicates, these are considered commute miles, and they are non-deductible.


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## CaptainJackLA

twill said:


> The OP, if I correctly understand the spirit of the question, asked whether there is a legitimate way to deduct commute miles. There have been two types of responses. Many of them have suggested that you just consider all miles as work miles if the app is turned on. But that is not what the tax law says.
> 
> The IRS gives an example of someone who cleans homes. This individual obviously has a "home office" from which s/he books clients, keeps records, and perhaps stores an inventory of cleaning supplies. But the IRS says that this is not a "work location." The cleaner's trip from home to the first work location of the day is a commute; trips from location to location are work; the trip from the last cleaning location back home at the end of the day is a commute. The fact that cleaning supplies are loaded in the car when the cleaner leaves the driveway does not change this.
> 
> So those who say to just turn on the Uber app before leaving your driveway are NOT answering the question accurately according to the tax laws. That may be how you operate ... and perhaps you can get away with it. (Then again, perhaps not, if you are audited.) The fact is, as the OP indicates, these are considered commute miles, and they are non-deductible.


Once you turn the app ON, you are considered working ON THE CLOCK. Whether you do that from home, or do it after driving 5 miles first, then go online.

I login in inside the house. If I get a ping, I go. If not within a few minutes, then I will get to my car.

Some could say they are ON LINE from Riverside READY TO WORK and drive to LA with no ping (or no accepted ping). Those are to be DEAD miles online, on the clock as it were.

And if I have to drive 5 miles for a pickup, those miles count too.

But if you drive 20 miles to where you want to start working, then go online, then those are not supposed to be counted. But the IRS does not have the time or manpower to verify this, and for such small dollars.

I figured about 80% of the miles on my car are for TNC.


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## Tim In Cleveland

The cleaning lady is not likely to work any old place just because she has her supplies (ignoring that she may work for Task Rabbit). She is not appearing on a map showing customers the availability of drivers (influencing whether they request a ride). The example from the IRS also does NOT acknowledge that the cleaning lady has a home office, it just assumes she doesn't. If it did and said the first trip was still commute and not work, it would be worthy of a lawsuit. You obviously HAVE NO COMMUTE MILES with a home office. You are at work and available with virtually no difference between the trips to the first and second locations.
Just because the cleaning lady gets in her car, she is very unlikely to be hired right there. Her situation is different. TNC's also wouldn't be required to provide "app on" insurance and insurance companies would not be able to exclude accidents during period one.



twill said:


> But that is not what the tax law says.


You're way overthinking it, twill.


CaptainJackLA said:


> I figured about 80% of the miles on my car are for TNC.


I'm deducting 90% of my miles. I turn my app on and accept rides even while out shopping and running errands. I only turn the app off if I can't make a quick exit from the store or are unwilling to accept riders (family function, date).


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## CaptainJackLA

Even if you don't want to do a ride, turn on Lyft Destination Filter. It rarely works, but you are online.

It only works in LA county, not OC


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## ThaUBBA

I've seen some posts in here from people I know are accountants. How do you conclude that a home office isn't deductible? If I do all my accounting/mileage logs etc that pertain to my driver business, how can you not claim a home office deduction? I have never heard this from anyone that runs their own business.


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## Tim In Cleveland

ThaUBBA said:


> I've seen some posts in here from people I know are accountants. How do you conclude that a home office isn't deductible? If I do all my accounting/mileage logs etc that pertain to my driver business, how can you not claim a home office deduction? I have never heard this from anyone that runs their own business.


If you have dedicated space for an office, you can take the deduction. Just ignore those saying otherwise. Look up the rules yourself.


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## Older Chauffeur

ThaUBBA said:


> I've seen some posts in here from people I know are accountants. How do you conclude that a home office isn't deductible? If I do all my accounting/mileage logs etc that pertain to my driver business, how can you not claim a home office deduction? I have never heard this from anyone that runs their own business.


I'm not an accountant, but my understanding is that a home office must be 100% used only for business, in order to claim that deduction. My CPA does consider that I work from home, but I do other personal stuff in my "office." Further, again as I understand the rules, if you sell your home the deductions you took for a home office have to be figured into the profits from the sale, some sort of payback. That may not apply in all cases, but it just wasn't worth it to me to mess with, even though we have enough rooms that I could set one up to do it. 
It will be interesting to see what the tax pros here have to say.


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## ThaUBBA

Older Chauffeur said:


> I'm not an accountant, but my understanding is that a home office must be 100% used only for business, in order to claim that deduction. My CPA does consider that I work from home, but I do other personal stuff in my "office." Further, again as I understand the rules, if you sell your home the deductions you took for a home office have to be figured into the profits from the sale, some sort of payback. That may not apply in all cases, but it just wasn't worth it to me to mess with, even though we have enough rooms that I could set one up to do it.
> It will be interesting to see what the tax pros here have to say.


Ya, that was my understanding. It has to be used 100% for business use.


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## UberTaxPro

Older Chauffeur said:


> I'm not an accountant, but my understanding is that a home office must be 100% used only for business, in order to claim that deduction. My CPA does consider that I work from home, but I do other personal stuff in my "office." Further, again as I understand the rules, if you sell your home the deductions you took for a home office have to be figured into the profits from the sale, some sort of payback. That may not apply in all cases, but it just wasn't worth it to me to mess with, even though we have enough rooms that I could set one up to do it.
> It will be interesting to see what the tax pros here have to say.


Yes 100% business. Yes, if you use the standard method for deducting your home office you have to recapture the depreciation taken. Recapture means you pay ordinary income tax on profit from the sale of your home up to the $ amount of depreciation you took for your home office over the years. Since 2013 you can use a simplified method that is easier to calculate and doesn't require any recapture. Might be just what your looking for:
https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Smal...s-Simplified-Method-for-Home-Office-Deduction


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## UberTaxPro

ThaUBBA said:


> I've seen some posts in here from people I know are accountants. How do you conclude that a home office isn't deductible? If I do all my accounting/mileage logs etc that pertain to my driver business, how can you not claim a home office deduction? I have never heard this from anyone that runs their own business.


Who said a home office isn't deductible?


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## ThaUBBA

UberTaxPro said:


> Who said a home office isn't deductible?


Page 1, Tristian unless he was talking specifically about your residential home itself being a commercial office.


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## UberTaxPro

ThaUBBA said:


> Page 1, Tristian unless he was talking specifically about your residential home itself being a commercial office.


You mean zen99 that closed down? The only thing I can find about it is this

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/620682070201741313Do you have a link?


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## UberPissed

Home Office Deduction is limited to positive net income, so if you have a loss, you don't get HOD. YOu can carry it forward to a future year.

I personally have a different opinion on this one. What type of HOD are you claiming? It just seems like the bulk of your business is on the road, not in your office. Are you using office for exclusive use? I just find it hard to believe that drivers are spending significant amount of time in a home office that is used exclusively for the use of the ride share business. Just my opinion though. I would go the simplified method, seems to stand up to scrutiny better.


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## UberTaxPro

UberPissed said:


> Home Office Deduction is limited to positive net income, so if you have a loss, you don't get HOD. YOu can carry it forward to a future year.
> 
> I personally have a different opinion on this one. What type of HOD are you claiming? It just seems like the bulk of your business is on the road, not in your office. Are you using office for exclusive use? I just find it hard to believe that drivers are spending significant amount of time in a home office that is used exclusively for the use of the ride share business. Just my opinion though. I would go the simplified method, seems to stand up to scrutiny better.


To claim the home office you have to use it exclusively and regularly. If you conduct business at a location outside of your home, but also use your home substantially and regularly to conduct business, you may qualify for a home office deduction. I can't find anything requiring "spending significant amount of time in a home office" as a requirement. Using your office to keep your taxes up to date, doing SE quarterlies etc... would qualify as regular use and I don't think the IRS could argue that doing your taxes isn't a "substantial value" to your business. In addition to taxes a driver also has to correspond with Uber, pay bills, and of course spend time on uberpeople.net adding to the substantial use. Yes, 99% of Uber drivers won't qualify because of the positive net income test but some drivers who don't drive for Uber might like Older Chauffeur


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## ThaUBBA

Thanks for the responses guys. Use my office mostly for my other contracted job which should qualify imo. Just curious as I've seen posts saying 'don't even try it etc etc'


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## DSLRreel

twill said:


> The OP, if I correctly understand the spirit of the question, asked whether there is a legitimate way to deduct commute miles. There have been two types of responses. Many of them have suggested that you just consider all miles as work miles if the app is turned on. But that is not what the tax law says.
> 
> The IRS gives an example of someone who cleans homes. This individual obviously has a "home office" from which s/he books clients, keeps records, and perhaps stores an inventory of cleaning supplies. But the IRS says that this is not a "work location." The cleaner's trip from home to the first work location of the day is a commute; trips from location to location are work; the trip from the last cleaning location back home at the end of the day is a commute. The fact that cleaning supplies are loaded in the car when the cleaner leaves the driveway does not change this.
> 
> So those who say to just turn on the Uber app before leaving your driveway are NOT answering the question accurately according to the tax laws. That may be how you operate ... and perhaps you can get away with it. (Then again, perhaps not, if you are audited.) The fact is, as the OP indicates, these are considered commute miles, and they are non-deductible.


 I was wondering when someone was going to actually look up what the communist IRS defines as commute miles and miles that can be written off. Some people think that because they have designated a corner of their home as an office the travel from office to the first ride is considered mileage that can be deducted. Can you cite this info? I was under the impression, regaurdless, work miles don't start until you reach the first passengers pick-up point. They end at the last passenger drop off point.


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## UberTaxPro

DSLRreel said:


> I was wondering when someone was going to actually look up what the communist IRS defines as commute miles and miles that can be written off. Some people think that because they have designated a corner of their home as an office the travel from office to the first ride is considered mileage that can be deducted. Can you cite this info? I was under the impression, regaurdless, work miles don't start until you reach the first passengers pick-up point. They end at the last passenger drop off point.


"Your principal place of business is in your home. You can deduct the cost of round-trip transportation between your qualifying home office and your client's or customer's place of business." From IRS pub 463 https://www.irs.gov/publications/p463/ch04.html
TNC and ride-sharing businesses are still fairly new so there are not specific IRS guidelines yet. Generally the miles you deduct have to be "business miles" regardless of where you start from home or wherever.


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## tcaud

MikeB said:


> If you need to be in your usual work site 30 miles away from home at a certain time you cannot leave your house with an app on, because you will never make it there on time, nor will you even get there.
> If you leave the app on when you're heading 30 miles back home after your shift you will either never make it home, or your cancellation rate goes through the roof and you can be deactivated.


You're not making any sense at all. Put it this way: why should you have an advantage over me because you only go 2 miles out from your house in the borough to the Uber Eats partner down the street, and commute 2 miles back home afterward, while I live in the suburbs 10 miles from the nearest Uber Eats partner, and have to make a drive at least 5 miles to get a ping (10 more likely), while ultimately needing to drive 30 miles out to get in boost zone / max earnings area? Equal protection, I should be able to deduct the miles back whether online or not, because that's miles incurred for no other reason than business.


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## tcaud

There appears to be a "gotcha" on the home office thing: there is a specific deduction you are required to file for, and it requires actually meeting people at your home to get it. So for example if you were to pick up a computer, and work on it, and then someone came to get it and you received cash for it, then you could take it. Or if you did art for somebody and they came to pick it up, then you could take it then. Doing this regularly is highly regulated against in suburban neighborhoods and in metropolitan areas generally, but could the IRS really prove that if you did this even once a year you weren't "in business"?

The more I look at it, the more unfair the tax system looks to rideshare drivers. It also seems gimmicky: I am punished for taking my first order/pax far from home, as opposed to near. Afterward, it doesn't matter. Also it seems like the way to get homeward bound miles counted is to keep the app on while declining the requests. How could it be proven that I was trying to cheat on taxes thus? They'd need Uber's records. And if it indeed proved so complicated to account for taxes thus... rideshare itself would likely rapidly decline. It sounds like Uber's "online miles" tax summary is correspondingly useless for tax purposes, because it doesn't keep track of distance to first pax/restaurant. You'd have to at least deduct the length of your first staging drive of the day in that situation. On the other hand, according to the rules if you do even one pickup beforehand for anyone outside your immediate family on that day, then you can arguably say that your first contact was close to home and all other. The system is easily and painlessly gamed.

I'm gonna just use the tax summary. I've got a feeling Uber is comfortable with it and ready to go to bat over it. If a judgment was made against drivers against reporting "online mileage" then they and other companies would be wide open to class action suits. This will be lobbied in congress and there's no question who's going to win.


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## tcaud

Actually let's try this... let's use "online miles" for this year and if the IRS says anything about it, they'll be coming after a lot of us at once. At worst we just have to pay them the difference and a minor penalty.

I did the math and the US self-employment tax basically reduces hourly earnings by an dollar compared to employee work if you do Uber Eats mostly, and $1.50 to $2 if you do mostly rideshare (16% of 12 dollars is 2 dollars, where employees only pay 8% FICA, meaning employees basically make $1 more at the same rate while getting the same benefit). It's a serious cut that ought to be confronted, because it's not like we get any more from Social Security for our trouble. I don't do this by choice... I will get fired from other jobs for not meeting performance metrics, so I feel backed into a corner here.


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## tcaud

I did some more thinking on it. There are two groups of people doing Uber: those who have stable places of residence and those who don't. The phenomenon of homeless doing Uber has been documented in the news media by various sources. It's not as difficult an arrangement as you might think... going to the YMCA to get your shower and sleeping in your car at night with the heat running. In warmer climes, not even that. There are lots of vagabond people living in their cars doing rideshare/delivery. Those are the people the IRS says does not have a home. Everyone who actually lives somewhere and is an independent contractor, has a home office. ...Actually this rule seems incredibly arbitrary and nonsensical to me, and the more I think about it the less sense it makes. It literally seems designed to influence the gig economy in some way that is really unjustifiable, as though it is trying to modulate the behavior of freelancers. It's not actually in the law itself, and ought to be challenged.

The more I think about this, the more I realize that gig people really don't have a voice in policymaking. At all. They don't have a place to hold a rally and let a candidate make a speech about how important they are. This rule pretty much shows that gig economy people generally are losers the way things are going... they have penalties against them that other business operators don't.


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## Safe_Driver_4_U

UberPissed said:


> If you post a loss, probably.
> 
> But - you shouldn't report income / deductions or not report income / deductions out of fear of the consequences. You should claim all miles that you are entitled to claim. Last year, I took in 6k in fares, and posted a tax loss of $1,000.


perfect place the unused revenue of that 6k into a tax privileged retirement account ....double dip.


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