# Uber’s Policy on Cancellations — You’re Allowed to Cancel Short Trips Without Penalty



## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

Grab some popcorn and have a seat...










Like a lot of you, I'm fed up with this bull**** payday loan app, so I've begun using the California Supreme Court's argument for employment classification as a barometer for wages, treatment, etc.

If you haven't read my email to Uber about my right to seek unemployment insurance, you can read it here:

https://uberpeople.net/threads/file-for-unemployment-if-you-are-homeless-like-me.268029/

Fast forward to today, I've begun cancelling any call that resembles 2 miles, or 15 minutes of my time. And each time I cancel a call, I click on that ride and select HELP > ISSUES WITH MY FARE > I HAD A DIFFERENT ISSUE WITH MY FARE > and present Uber with the following text: 

*Hello, this call was cancelled due to the distance, which constitutes less than minimum-wage earnings.

CC: California Employment Development Department

Reference: Dynamex Operations West, Inc. v. Charles Lee and the Superior Court of Los Angeles County 
*
Their response: 










Translation: you can cancel as many calls as you'd like, as long as your reason doesn't amount to discrimination.

If the call you are about to accept is going to cause you financial harm, Uber has given you permission to cancel it.

-TE

*Want more dirty deets on Uber or Lyft? Click on my Trump Economics Avatar and scroll to the Information/About me section of my uberpeople.net page.*


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

Sounds great


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

I’m not in California but I received a similar message from Uber with exactly the same wording. In addition my message has a line that said “we understand long rides may not be economical if you have to return home empty”. Your message and the one I got mention long rides specifically. 


The question is, can we extend this policy to short rides and cancel them as well 

I have no problem accepting short rides when working the street, $5 for 5 min ride makes sense to me, but waiting at the airport for hours for a short ride is un economical. So I cancel these too. I can cancel 2 or 3 and retain my place in line.


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## MadTownUberD (Mar 11, 2017)

How do you know the destination unless you start the trip? Can you cancel once you've started the trip? I thought your only option was End Trip. Won't you get deactivated for too much cancellation?


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

I'm not sure I understand the logic of canceling a short trip, unless you call ahead before you drive to the pickup and determine the destination upfront. Otherwise, if you're sitting in your car with the rider in back when you discover the destination, what possible benefit is there to canceling at that point? Drive the 1/2 mile and take your $3.04 minimum fare.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

oldfart said:


> I'm not in California but I received a similar message from Uber with exactly the same wording. In addition my message has a line that said "we understand long rides may not be economical if you have to return home empty". Your message and the one I got mention long rides specifically.
> 
> The question is, can we extend this policy to short rides and cancel them as well
> 
> I have no problem accepting short rides when working the street, $5 for 5 min ride makes sense to me, but waiting at the airport for hours for a short ride is un economical. So I cancel these too. I can cancel 2 or 3 and retain my place in line.


That's a great question, and I thought the same thing. Uber words things a certain way to their benefit - we all know this. My argument is this: you are giving drivers permission to cancel calls based upon the destination. This, then, negates whether the destination was long or far - permission was granted.

I don't think they want to say, "Hey, yea, cancel any and all trips," but their grounds for firing can only be based upon discrimination.

As mentioned, advocating for minimum-wage earnings is not discriminatory, and the California Supreme Court has your back - whether you live in that state or not. And because California is the world's fifth largest economy, other states will eventually look to its rulings for precedent.



MadTownUberD said:


> How do you know the destination unless you start the trip? Can you cancel once you've started the trip? I thought your only option was End Trip. Won't you get deactivated for too much cancellation?


The trip starts on its own when you are near the destination - your car nears the dot (pick-up) on the map. I slide START TRIP, the destination is revealed, and click END TRIP (after driving a few feet, otherwise you will get a RIDE IN PROGRESS/ERROR MESSAGE), followed by the steps above.

In the past, the argument has been, "Drivers are deactivated for too many cancellations."

Here's why this is changing, but Uber's not being up front with it - they don't want you to know.

CA and NY now consider you an employee, so if Uber fires you for cancellations, you can request unemployment. This is why they're backing off and saying "cancel."

If they tell you not to cancel for reasons that aren't discriminatory, they look like an employer.

One thing I would note are "contractual obligation."

A contract exists between you and Uber, you and the passenger, etc. If you were truly an independent contractor, you would be entitled to all of the facts ahead of time (like the destination), at which time you would have the right to decline the contract because it is not in your best interest to earn less than minimum-wage for your time.



Coachman said:


> I'm not sure I understand the logic of canceling a short trip, unless you call ahead before you drive to the pickup and determine the destination upfront. Otherwise, if you're sitting in your car with the rider in back when you discover the destination, what possible benefit is there to canceling at that point? Drive the 1/2 mile and take your $3.04 minimum fare.


To be honest, there isn't much of a benefit. I cancelled like 20 calls in a two-hour period, and not getting paid for any of them is frustrating. Still, I did get two $10 calls during that time + tip, so I made some money. I can't speak for anyone else, but cancelling short rides sends a message: I'm not willing to work for less than minimum-wage anymore. If it's a short ride, I'd be happy to take it if you increase the minimum fare on those calls.

But yesterday, I got three back-to-back calls in a row - each of them were like 2 miles and took 15-20 minutes in Los Angeles traffic. Add in the time it took to pick-up the passenger and you're coming away with like $9 dollars and some change. Deduct 53.5 cents a mile and you're going, "It's Friday... during SUMMER... what the heck?!"

I'd had enough.

Uber's currently engaged in a campaign of driver warfare (attrition), and they want most of us to quit. Why? Because employees can't get unemployment if they quit. This is why you're seeing such a huge uptick in Checkr deactivations. This is their way of firing you for cause, when in reality they're simply saying, "We have too many drivers. We don't need all of you. We just need a few of you who are willing to drive for base rates and give good service," that way we can keep overcharging passengers with upfront pricing. True, no one likes to be charged crazy rates, but if the customer service is consistent, you'll pay it, and things will return to 2014.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Trump Economics said:


> Grab some popcorn and have a seat...
> 
> View attachment 245350
> 
> ...


You misinterpreted their last statement. It may affect your cancel rate, and they can't adjust that. It means, keep cancelling if you want, but they reserve the right to deactivate if it gets out of hand.


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## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

UberBeemer said:


> You misinterpreted their last statement. It may affect your cancel rate, and they can't adjust that. It means, keep cancelling if you want, but they reserve the right to deactivate if it gets out of hand.


Agree. OP interpreted that last sentence exactly backwards.


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## Pulledclear (Oct 31, 2017)

Hey genius you take the good with the bad. Every ride is not going to be perfect. So suck it up and take your fair share of the bad ones or move on. Uber should deactivate cherry pickers.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

UberBeemer said:


> You misinterpreted their last statement. It may affect your cancel rate, and they can't adjust that. It means, keep cancelling if you want, but they reserve the right to deactivate if it gets out of hand.


I disagree, but if I'm wrong, I will utilize their email at the unemployment hearing and reference their permission to cancel trips at leasure.

Employees are entitled to a clear outline of their job duties, including what is permissible with respect to cancellations, etc. This is the documentation they are providing, and this is what I'm going with. Unless you work for Uber's corporate offices, then your guess is as good as mine.


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## dirtylee (Sep 2, 2015)

Pulledclear said:


> Hey genius you take the good with the bad. Every ride is not going to be perfect. So suck it up and take your fair share of the bad ones or move on. Uber should deactivate cherry pickers.


LOL sucker.

Cherry picking works. Don't get carried away with it.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Pulledclear said:


> Hey genius you take the good with the bad. Every ride is not going to be perfect. So suck it up and take your fair share of the bad ones or move on. Uber should deactivate cherry pickers.


I would be long gone if Uberlyft deactivated for cherry picking, lol. My approach is to maximise my revenue, specifically and actively filtering out the low value pings as much as possible. If you're walking down the street and come across both a dog turd and a dollar bill lying in the street next to each other, which one are you going to pick up and put in your pocket?

My objective is to make the most amount of money in the least amount of time possible. Others may do this as some kind of public service in order to provide loss-making or break-even rides for people, which is fine if they choose to do that. But if this is an income generation exercise, then it makes sense to generate income.

I evaluate each ping based on ride type, surge level, time of day, pickup location and other factors. Some cherry picking is basic, basic obvious stuff, i.e. ignore all base rate Pool/Shared pings. IMO, there's really no excuse _not_ to cherry pick.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I would be long gone if Uberlyft deactivated for cherry picking, lol. My approach is to maximise my revenue, specifically and actively filtering out the low value pings as much as possible. If you're walking down the street and come across both a dog turd and a dollar bill lying in the street next to each other, which one are you going to pick up and put in your pocket?
> 
> My objective is to make the most amount of money in the least amount of time possible. Others may do this as some kind of public service in order to provide loss-making or break-even rides for people, which is fine if they choose to do that. But if this is an income generation exercise, then it makes sense to generate income.
> 
> I evaluate each ping based on ride type, surge level, time of day, pickup location and other factors. Some cherry picking is basic, basic obvious stuff, i.e. ignore all base rate Pool/Shared pings. IMO, there's really no excuse _not_ to cherry pick.


The sad truth it's that you shouldn't have to cherry pick. True independent contractors are entitled to all the facts before accepting a job. You don't call a plumber to your home and say, "I have a job for you, but I won't let you see the entire house, I'll only let you see a part of it, and you must agree to the entire job for this amount of money." The plumber would promptly tell you to kick rocks and leave - only they aren't penalized for leaving.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

UberBeemer said:


> You misinterpreted their last statement. It may affect your cancel rate, and they can't adjust that. It means, keep cancelling if you want, but they reserve the right to deactivate if it gets out of hand.


What's considered "out of hand"?

Fuber of course doesn't disclose that info.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

I am thinking it is whatever they say it is.


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

Coachman said:


> I'm not sure I understand the logic of canceling a short trip, unless you call ahead before you drive to the pickup and determine the destination upfront. Otherwise, if you're sitting in your car with the rider in back when you discover the destination, what possible benefit is there to canceling at that point? Drive the 1/2 mile and take your $3.04 minimum fare.


Yeah, at that point you've already invested more time driving to the pickup, might as well finish the job. Not like you're going to miss a fare while you complete the trip.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Pulledclear said:


> Hey genius you take the good with the bad. Every ride is not going to be perfect. So suck it up and take your fair share of the bad ones or move on. Uber should deactivate cherry pickers.


The definition of cherry-picking isn't limited to what you say it is.

Every time you decline a ping, you're cherry-picking. When you choose to drive in one area over another, you're cherry picking. The pax in the areas that you avoid need rides too.

Same applies if you chose to work where it's surging rather than areas that are base rate.

So we can assume you do NONE OF THE ABOVE, right?

That's saying a lot considering the poor rates in Florida.

If you do none of the above, you're an inept businessman. If you don't, you're a hypocrite.

Remember, ANYTIME you decline a ride, you're sticking another driver with it.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

UberBeemer said:


> I am thinking it is whatever they say it is.


Agree. Ambiguous comes to mind. But I'm willing to take one for the team. If I get a warning about cancellations, I'll ask how many are allowed, and if their response is vague, that will doom them in front of a judge.

My current cancellation rate stands at 30%, when 15% was the barometer.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Trump Economics said:


> The sad truth it's that you shouldn't have to cherry pick. True independent contractors are entitled to all the facts before accepting a job. You don't call a plumber to your home and say, "I have a job for you, but I won't let you see the entire house, I'll only let you see a part of it, and you must agree to the entire job for this amount of money." The plumber would promptly tell you to kick rocks and leave - only they aren't penalized for leaving.


Agreed. Uberlyft obviously conceals the destination because if they didn't then only the public service ride donators / hobbyist drivers would do the min. fare shorties, resulting in undersupply of drivers for this ride type. The only way they can get drivers to do them is by concealing the trip length and therefore trip revenue until the pax is in the car.

We drivers say that the answer is an $8/$10/etc min driver revenue per trip. Uber would argue that would mean increased prices for pax and that this would reduce demand, and they would be correct.

We also say that Uber should reduce its take and stop the up front fare bullshit. They'd argue that they can't keep subsidizing rides forever, and they would be correct in that too. No company can keep losing money paying for their customer's rides without outside cash injections.

These are just two of the many problems related to sustainability faced by Uberlyft. Rideshare in its current form is clearly nothing more than a huge microeconomic experiment in which they tried to kick start mass consumption of a service by means of huge subsidy, which they succeeded in doing, and now they are trying desperately to find ways to keep the machine running while trying to wean it off its huge investor cash addiction. Kind of like turning off the gasoline supply to an engine and hoping it will still run on its own. I can't really see it working.

Disclaimer for the lexicologically challenged: I do not support Uber's business practices.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

UberBeemer said:


> I am thinking it is whatever they say it is.


That's yet another example that illustrates how uber and lyft have been allowed to play by their own rules.

Something's gotta be done about that, and the NY ruling from the other day could very well be the start of that something.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> That's yet another example that illustrates how uber and lyft have been allowed to play by their own rules.
> 
> Something's gotta be done about that, and the NY ruling from the other day could very well be the start of that something.


Yes!!!


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Agreed. Uberlyft obviously conceals the destination because if they didn't then only the public service ride donators / hobbyist drivers would do the min. fare shorties, resulting in undersupply of drivers for this ride type. The only way they can get drivers to do them is by concealing the trip length and therefore trip revenue until the pax is in the car.
> 
> We drivers say that the answer is an $8/$10/etc min driver revenue per trip. Uber would argue that would mean increased prices for pax and that this would reduce demand, and they would be correct.
> 
> ...


They conceal destinations in order to keep pay rates LOW.

If drivers knew destinations in advance, uber would be forced to pay decent pay rates and/or offer hefty incentives to entice drivers to accept crappy rides.

Bad pay rates allows them to exert employee-like control over their drivers.

Bad pay rates forces drivers to work LONGER HOURS than they otherwise would in order to meet their financial goals.

Bad pay rates allows them to use INCENTIVES such as quest and boost in order to move drivers around like puppets on a string.

Uber's not "subsidizing" rides any more than the supermarket does with their weekly specials. They're called LOSS LEADERS, and they're a business tool.

The vast majority of uber rides are FULL PRICE "non-subsidized" rides.

They're NOT losing money on our rides, they're MAKING PROFITS on them.

They're taking the profits the we bring in, and spending them on SDCs and Asian boondoggles.

Don't believe uber's lies about being broke.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

So here's what's going on at the ft Myers airport.

Everyone that's worked the airport for more than a week, calls every passenger from the holding lot.

I introduce myself, and ask if they have gotten through baggage claim and are outside and ready to go. I make sure that are on the lower level and ask which door they are they closest to. If it’s an xl request I ask How many passengers, so I know whether to put up the 3rd row of seats. Then I ask to confirm their destination. If it going to be less than a $15 ride I’ll cancel

Cancel one and keep your place in line, cancel 2 and you keep your place in line. Im told that you can cancel the third but after four you go back to the end of the line. I always accept the third> which means every passenger always finds a driver

Lyft is different. You can cancel one but cancel two it’s back to the end of the line

When I’m on the street I don’t always accept long pickups but I take everything else. I see these rides as a bonus, even a $5 ride helps pay my gas for the drive back to the airport

An employee working for minimun wage should be able to reject anything that doesn’t move him to the minimum wage. And an independent contractor should be able to reject anything because ..... wait for it.... he’s an independent contractor

So tthats the way it should be. But it’s not. So I just wait to be deactivated and while I’m waiting I’m building my own private ride business


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> They conceal destinations in order to keep pay rates LOW.
> 
> If drivers knew destinations in advance, uber would be forced to pay decent pay rates and/or offer hefty incentives to entice drivers to accept crappy rides.


Correct; this is what I said in my post.


> Bad pay rates allows them to exert employee-like control over their drivers.


The control they exert over drivers is the same, regardless of what they pay drivers. In some markets pay is high enough to consistently gross $30/hr. In other markets drivers gross $10/hr or less. Also, some drivers know how to make relatively high gross earnings, others who are less skilled/experienced make a lot less. In all of these cases; those who earn high amounts and those who earn very low amounts, the control Uber exerts over each driver is the same. Therefore pay cannot the thing that allows Uber to treat drivers like employees and get away with it. Rather, it is (1) the courts, (2) the regulatory bodies and (3) shyster lawyers like Shannon Liss-Riordan who were hired to change the situation for drivers but instead chose to sell out for a multi-million paycheck cut of Uber's settlement payout.


> Bad pay rates forces drivers to work LONGER HOURS than they otherwise would in order to meet their financial goals.


Obvious


> Bad pay rates allows them to use INCENTIVES such as quest and boost in order to move drivers around like puppets on a string.


Bad pay is not a requisite for Uber, or any company to be allowed to offer incentives.


> Uber's not "subsidizing" rides


Yes, they are. Subsidize (verb): To pay part of the cost of producing (something) to reduce prices for the buyer. The aggregate amounts that pax pay do not cover driver payments plus all of Uber's other costs, which is why they have consistently needed to use their investor cash to pay part of the cost of the rides.

The cat is now out of the bag regarding Uber subsidizing rides via investor cash, with many of the established business journals now reporting it including Fortune, Harvard Business Review and MIT:

_But it may be the most important question of all when it comes to determining the value of Uber Technologies, which has built its business on massive subsidies to both riders and drivers, producing huge losses in the process, and has yet to show that it can maintain growth without them._ Fortune Magazine

_During peak periods, surge prices allow Uber to maintain service standards as well as cross-subsidize lower priced rides._ Harvard Business Review

_Unsustainable: Nearly half of drivers earn so little they actually qualify to report losses on their tax returns. "This business model is not currently sustainable," Stephen Zoepf, the Stanford University researcher who led the study, told the Guardian. "The companies are losing money &#8230; and the drivers are essentially subsidizing it by working for very low wages."_ MIT Technology Review


> They're called LOSS LEADERS, and they're a business tool.


I know what loss leaders are; they are products/services priced below cost to attract customers with the hope that they will also buy other products and services that are profit generating. However, the discussion here is about the low pay that Uber pays drivers on min fare shorties. We're not buying anything from Uber, so the loss leader concept is irrelevant here.

If you want to talk about loss leaders, Uber does employ them in the various offers to pax that they pitch (i.e. ride anywhere in town for the price of a bus ticket etc), but that's a separate topic.


> The vast majority of uber rides are FULL PRICE "non-subsidized" rides.


Uber does not subsidize all rides. They surely generate gross profit and even net profit on some rides however, if we look at all the rides they sell to pax as a whole, they are cash flow negative and dependent on subsidy from investors to keep the lights on.


> They're NOT losing money on our rides, they're MAKING PROFITS on them.


Please post evidence of this.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Correct; this is what I said in my post.
> The control they exert over drivers is the same, regardless of what they pay drivers. In some markets pay is high enough to consistently gross $30/hr. In other markets drivers gross $10/hr or less. Also, some drivers know how to make relatively high gross earnings, others who are less skilled/experienced make a lot less. In all of these cases; those who earn high amounts and those who earn very low amounts, the control Uber exerts over each driver is the same. Therefore pay cannot the thing that allows Uber to treat drivers like employees and get away with it. Rather, it is (1) the courts, (2) the regulatory bodies and (3) shyster lawyers like Shannon Liss-Riordan who were hired to change the situation for drivers but instead chose to sell out for a multi-million paycheck cut of Uber's settlement payout.
> Obvious
> Bad pay is not a requisite for Uber, or any company to be allowed to offer incentives.
> ...


Now that they're taking more per ride with Upfront Pricing, what are your thoughts on a 2019 IPO?


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Trump Economics said:


> Now that they're taking more per ride with Upfront Pricing, what are your thoughts on a 2019 IPO?


I think it could happen, if Dara can convince investors that the narrowing losses are a path to profitability and not simply narrowing losses.

I'm not sure that Uber can survive as it is now. There is only so much they can squeeze drivers before supply starts to dry up and only so much they can raise prices. Once the investor subsidies end, I think Rideshare will continue, but on a smaller scale. The higher prices needed to pay for operations and return a profit for shareholders will shrink demand and there will be fewer pax, rides and drivers.

We're already starting to see this - the higher prices are creating less demand for rides and for drivers. Surge, Boost and other incentives are already disappearing as the growth in demand for more drivers slows.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

oldfart said:


> So here's what's going on at the ft Myers airport.
> 
> Everyone that's worked the airport for more than a week, calls every passenger from the holding lot.
> 
> ...


There's been news stories about cherry picking at airports such as LAX, and supposedly uber fired 100 drivers for doing it.

Any hostile reaction from the pax? Any hostile reaction from uber and lyft?

Do you know of any drivers who've been fired for doing it?

We shouldn't have to call the pax, we should know the DESTINATION IN ADVANCE.

No legitimate business owner should be expected to make business decisions without knowing all the pertinent information.

Yet we're expected to accept a business proposition (ride request) without knowing the facts (destination and price).

The two worst things about this job are the garbage pay rates and not knowing destinations in advance.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> There's been news stories about cherry picking at airports such as LAX, and supposedly uber fired 100 drivers for doing it.
> 
> Any hostile reaction from the pax? Any hostile reaction from uber and lyft?
> 
> ...


That's why I believe the tables have turned on cancellations. If they fire a driver for refusing to earn less than minimum-wage (for example), it's wrongful termination. Uber has not been explicit about their cancellation policy, and all we have to go on are varied emails. They can't claim one of their drivers is in violation of a policy that has not been made clear - employee or not.

Cancellation rate rising


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Trump Economics said:


> That's why I believe the tables have turned on cancellations. If they fire a driver for refusing to earn less than minimum-wage (for example), it's wrongful termination. Uber has not been explicit about their cancellation policy, and all we have to go on are varied emails. They can't claim one of their drivers is in violation of a policy that has not been made clear - employee or not.
> 
> Cancellation rate rising
> 
> View attachment 245601


Your point is valid for the most part.

However, the govt has allowed MANY companies including uber and lyft to get away with treating ICs as employees.

So the laws on independent contractors vs employees mean nothing if the govt doesn't enforce them.

Drivers wouldn't have to cancel nearly as many rides if they knew the destinations in advance.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> The control they exert over drivers is the same, regardless of what they pay drivers.


Well paid drivers are much more independent than poorly paid drivers.

Many and probably most drivers have daily and weekly income targets, especially full timers who rely on their job to support their families.

And they desire to reach those targets in as few hours as possible, in order to spend more time with their families. They also desire to do it in the fewest trips possible.

Fuber of course, doesn't want that. They want their drivers to work MORE hours, not fewer.

Since they can't order drivers to work, they use bad pay as a weapon to force drivers to work longer hours. They use incentives such as boost to move drivers around like puppets on a string, and they use quests as an incentive to work longer hours.

Drivers who reach their targets are much less receptive to enticements than drivers who haven't.



The Gift of Fish said:


> Bad pay is not a requisite for Uber, or any company to be allowed to offer incentives.


It is for fuber.

As I already stated above, well paid drivers are much less receptive to incentives than poorly paid ones. When drivers reach their targets, they want to go home.

It would be costly for fuber to offer both good pay rates and incentives.

Low pay rates not only save fuber a ton of money, it frees up enough cash to offer the incentives and still have a fortune left over.



The Gift of Fish said:


> they have consistently needed to use their investor cash to pay part of the cost of the rides.


Early on, fuber used loss leaders (subsidies) in the early days around 2012-14 as a marketing tool to introduce their service to the public when they expanded to new markets.

Things such as "free rides for a week or a month" and "drivers pay no service fee for the first month", etc.

Pizza shops and other businesses frequently use giveaways when the first open to get their shop publicity.

Those giveaways are long gone.



The Gift of Fish said:


> The cat is now out of the bag regarding Uber subsidizing rides via investor cash, with many of the established business journals now reporting it including Fortune, Harvard Business Review and MIT:


Virtually EVERY rideshare article I've read in those business journals has been a disgrace.

I wouldn't be at all shocked if it was revealed that uber bought off some of those writers.

Factual errors galore, errors of omission, the woeful lack of coverage of the plight of the drivers, failure of the writers to do their homework,
writers taking uber's word as gospel with out fact-checking, articles with virtually ZERO driver input, etc, etc, etc.

The fact that virtually every one of those lazy writers chose to anoint Harry Campbell as the drivers' "advocate" tells you all you need to know.



The Gift of Fish said:


> _But it may be the most important question of all when it comes to determining the value of Uber Technologies, which has built its business on massive subsidies to both riders and drivers, producing huge losses in the process, and has yet to show that it can maintain growth without them._ Fortune Magazine


How old is that quote? If it's from recent years, it's absolute bullshit.



The Gift of Fish said:


> _Unsustainable: Nearly half of drivers earn so little they actually qualify to report losses on their tax returns. "This business model is not currently sustainable," Stephen Zoepf, the Stanford University researcher who led the study, told the Guardian. "The companies are losing money &#8230; and the drivers are essentially subsidizing it by working for very low wages."_ MIT Technology Review


He's that professor who used Harry Campbell's bullshit "survey", and embarrassed both himself and MIT. He was probably bought off and/or threatened by fuber into walking back his findings.



The Gift of Fish said:


> Uber does not subsidize all rides. They surely generate gross profit and even net profit on some rides however, if we look at all the rides they sell to pax as a whole, they are cash flow negative and dependent on subsidy from investors to keep the lights on.


The freaking thieves are swipping an average of 40%+ from every ride. They sure as hell don't need investor cash for their rideshare business, that's for sure.



The Gift of Fish said:


> Please post evidence of this.


 They're taking 40%+ from every ride, 8 years for their technology to mature, 8 years for startup costs to amortize, comments from Dara,
common sense, etc


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> There's been news stories about cherry picking at airports such as LAX, and supposedly uber fired 100 drivers for doing it.
> 
> Any hostile reaction from the pax? Any hostile reaction from uber and lyft?
> 
> ...


I got new information this morning, I'm at the airport now and the rumor is that Uber deactivated 13 drivers yesterday for cancelling short rides.

We had a group of drivers here (Ft Myers) that drove 100 miles from Miami to work at this airport. The rumor was that they had been deactivated in Miami for the same thing. So the question now is: was it the group from Miami or other of us local guys. I think it was the Miami guys because this morning they aren't here and all the regular local guys are

The rumor regarding the Miami guys was that they had jammers and were able to manipulate the queue. So maybe that was true and they were caught here

I've picked up passengers that were pissed about the several phone called and cancellations and the time they had to wait. I told them to call Uber and complain. Also other drivers have been complaining on a daily basis about what's been going on here. If Uber asked my opinion I'd tell them to take a page from Lyft's book. After the second cancel you go to the back of the line


----------



## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Agreed. Uberlyft obviously conceals the destination because if they didn't then only the public service ride donators / hobbyist drivers would do the min. fare shorties, resulting in undersupply of drivers for this ride type. The only way they can get drivers to do them is by concealing the trip length and therefore trip revenue until the pax is in the car.


This just isn't true anymore. Especially in oversaturated areas. Someone will always want the ride as long as it is reasonably close enough. It's ridiculous that we have to be "tricked" into taking rides and then "kept in line" with the threat of deactivation due to cancel rates over our heads. We really are employees in everything but name, wages, and benefits and I think most everyone knows this.



Nats121 said:


> Well paid drivers are much more independent than poorly paid drivers.
> 
> Many and probably most drivers have daily and weekly income targets, especially full timers who rely on their job to support their families.
> 
> ...


Which is probably another reason why they play games with the dispatch. People forget that they know the estimated value of nearly every ride so essentially they can set your earnings. I notice when I get near what I made last week with Uber suddenly it gets very slow.

I theorize that if I stayed online 14 hours a day, seven days a week I'd probably make what I made last week plus $2-$3 an hour for every hour over the baseline hours I worked the week before.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

oldfart said:


> I got new information this morning, I'm at the airport now and the rumor is that Uber deactivated 13 drivers yesterday for cancelling short rides.
> 
> We had a group of drivers here (Ft Myers) that drove 100 miles from Miami to work at this airport. The rumor was that they had been deactivated in Miami for the same thing. So the question now is: was it the group from Miami or other of us local guys. I think it was the Miami guys because this morning they aren't here and all the regular local guys are
> 
> ...


Something doesn't make sense here.

In your other post, you stated that you call every pax and confirm the destination, and if the trip is less than $15, you cancel.

You also said most of the other drivers do it as well.

Now you're saying you tell pax to report drivers who cherry pick, and that drivers are complaing about what's going on at the airport.

Were you joking in your other post, because what you're saying in this post is 180 degrees the opposite?


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Something doesn't make sense here.
> 
> In your other post, you stated that you call every pax and confirm the destination, and if the trip is less than $15, you cancel.
> 
> ...


A couple of things
1) I resisted calling and cancelling for a long time and took everything. I'm more selective now
2) I actually have a life outside of Uber. There are times when it's just time to hang it up for the day. I take whatever I get, do the last ride and go home
3) With Lyft we get one cancel and go to the back of the line With Uber it's 2 or 3. So it often happens that I'm faced with having to take the next ping. So I do

Make sense now??

Having said that, until I pin down the most recent rumors here, I'll probably not be cancelling rides


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

oldfart said:


> A couple of things
> 1) I resisted calling and cancelling for a long time and took everything. I'm more selective now
> 2) I actually have a life outside of Uber. There are times when it's just time to hang it up for the day. I take whatever I get, do the last ride and go home
> 3) With Lyft we get one cancel and go to the back of the line With Uber it's 2 or 3. So it often happens that I'm faced with having to take the next ping. So I do
> ...


You're not making sense, you're all over the place.

In your other post you said you were heading toward deactivation because of your cherry picking at the airport.

In your follow up post, you said you tell customers to report drivers for doing the very thing you yourself are doing.

Bottom line is your 3 posts show hypocricy, changing stories, and contradictory info.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> Well paid drivers are much more independent than poorly paid drivers.


No, Uber exerts the same degree of control over all drivers, independently of how much each one earns. The control measures include:

- Uber controls the pay per mile & minute that drivers earn
- Uber controls the price charged to pax
- Uber controls the amount of commission it takes from each ride
- Uber controls cleaning fee amounts and whether or not pax are charged
- Uber sets the rules for firing drivers and fires them as it sees fit
- Uber controls pax refunds and takes pay back from drivers without consulting drivers

These are some of the controls that Uber exerts over drivers, and they are the same for all drivers regardless of market, mileage/time rate, or the earnings of individual drivers. They are controls because they control drivers - no driver can avoid them

I am a relatively high earning driver (I gross $30 - $40 per hour). But I am subject to all of the above controls in exactly the same way as an $8/hour Orlando or Detroit driver is. None of us can set our prices or control Uber'a deactivation policy etc etc etc.

You seem to think that Uber's incentives constitute control over drivers. If that were true then they would, by definition, be controlling and, as above, unavoidable. However, a control is only a control if it is unavoidable by the person being controlled. Incentives are not controls over a driver because they can be accepted or rejected at will by the indivdual drivers. For example some weeks I will choose to do Quest and some weeks not. Sometimes I will be interested in Boost and sometimes not. And I always ignore consecutive ride bonuses because Uber often does not pay out on them. All drivers have the freedom to accept or reject them.


> Many and probably most drivers have daily and weekly income targets, especially full timers who rely on their job to support their families.


Obvious


> And they desire to reach those targets in as few hours as possible, in order to spend more time with their families. They also desire to do it in the fewest trips possible.


Obvious


> Fuber of course, doesn't want that. They want their drivers to work MORE hours, not fewer.


I can't think of any company that would want its workers to work fewer hours. I have never had a boss say "you know what, I want you to work 10 fewer hours next week. Go home at 3pm each day and put your feet up".



> Since they can't order drivers to work, they use bad pay as a weapon to force drivers to work longer hours.


No company can order people to work. Not since the Emancipation Proclamation.


> They use incentives such as boost to move drivers around like puppets on a string,


Again, no. Puppets on a string are under the control of the puppeteer, whereas drivers are free to ignore incentives.


> they use quests as an incentive to work longer hours.


Correct


> Drivers who reach their targets are much less receptive to enticements than drivers who haven't.


Correct


> It would be costly for fuber to offer both good pay rates and incentives.


Obvious/basic math. Cost A + Cost B would be costlier than either Cost A or B by themselves.


> Low pay rates not only save fuber a ton of money, it frees up enough cash to offer the incentives and still have a fortune left over.


No, Uber is a loss-making enterprise.


> Early on, fuber used loss leaders (subsidies) in the early days around 2012-14 as a marketing tool to introduce their service


Correct. And the rides Uber sells to its pax are still subsidized heavily by its investors. Some people don't like the word subsidy in this context. That's fine; we can say instead that Uber's investors give Uber large amounts of money to make up the shortfall between what pax pay for their rides and what those rides actually cost to provide, so that Uber can keep operating. Regardless of the language used, the reality is still the same.


> They're taking 40%+ from every ride, 8 years for their technology to mature, 8 years for startup costs to amortize, comments from Dara,
> common sense, etc


None of this is evidence of Uber being profitable / not needing to be kept afloat by investor cash.


----------



## -Days-of-Distortion- (Jun 22, 2018)

oldfart said:


> I'm not in California but I received a similar message from Uber with exactly the same wording. In addition my message has a line that said "we understand long rides may not be economical if you have to return home empty". Your message and the one I got mention long rides specifically.
> 
> The question is, can we extend this policy to short rides and cancel them as well
> 
> I have no problem accepting short rides when working the street, $5 for 5 min ride makes sense to me, but waiting at the airport for hours for a short ride is un economical. So I cancel these too. I can cancel 2 or 3 and retain my place in line.


WHY would you wait for hours at the airport for a ride? seriously?!


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> No, Uber exerts the same degree of control over all drivers, independently of how much each one earns. The control measures include:
> 
> - Uber controls the pay per mile & minute that drivers earn
> - Uber controls the price charged to pax
> ...


There's no point in continuing this "control" discussion because you split hairs and take every word literally, such as the words "control", "order", "force"

If I use any of those terms, you'll argue that none of those things can take place if there's no actual physical force being applied.

No one outside of fuber knows their finances. They've provided ZERO proof of the size of their losses or if there are losses at all.

I'll repeat what I've stated in other posts... I have no doubt that fuber is making a profit on our rides for the reasons I've already given.

They've been taking the profits from their North American rideshare operations, and investing them and possibly additional funds from their investors into SDCs and Asian expansion boondoggles.

Do I have proof? No. But neither do you and all the others who claim they lost over $4 billion last year.

Common sense dictates they have to be making money on our rides due to the reasons I've already given

Common sense also dictates that if their claims of record high $4 billion dollar losses are true, it's NOT due to losses in their rideshare business, but rather due to enormous expenditures in SDCs and various boondoggles.

If fuber is truly losing money on our rides despite the factors I pointed out, there's NO WAY they'll ever be able to make SDCs financially viable.

That would mean their investors, especially Soft Bank who recently invested over $1 billion, are incredibly stupid businessmen.

Suffice to say their zillionaire investors didn't get to where they are by being stupid.

You didn't think thru your comment about bosses never wanting their employees to work fewer hours.

Zillions of bosses would like their workers to work fewer hours. It's called controlling labor costs.

The goal of most companies is to get maximum production from their employees in the fewest possible work hours, and thus at the lowest possible cost.

Fuber's an exception to that rule because drivers working longer hours costs them nothing.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> This just isn't true anymore. Especially in oversaturated areas. Someone will always want the ride as long as it is reasonably close enough. It's ridiculous that we have to be "tricked" into taking rides and then "kept in line" with the threat of deactivation due to cancel rates over our heads.


So are you saying that, with current saturation, someone will always do each rideand there is no need for us to be tricked into taking rides, or that we have to be tricked into taking rides and then kept in line? You say both of these things, but they're contradictory.



Nats121 said:


> There's no point in continuing this "control" discussion because you split hairs and take every word literally, such as the words "control", "order", "force"


Disagree. If we're talking about how Uber controls its drivers, then it's essential to state what a control is. In my book, a control is something that controls. It is not an optional feature which drivers can take or leave as they see fit. There is a big difference between the two.


> If I use any of those terms, you'll argue that none of those things can take place if there's no actual physical force being exerted.


Incorrect. I said that Uber does indeed control its drivers. Does it force any driver to do anything? No, neither figuratively nor literally.


> No one outside of fuber knows their finances. They've provided ZERO proof of the size of their losses or if there are losses at all.


I didn't ask for proof. I asked if you have any evidence that they are profitable.


> Do I have proof? No. But neither do you and all the others who claim they lost over $4 billion last year.


Again, I didn't mention proof. Nobody has any proof at this stage of Uber's alleged losses or alleged profit. However, since Uber has at least provided some actual numbers, whereas the "Uber makes millions" camp provides no numbers whatsoever, I prefer the actual evidence. Also, if Uber is making millions/billions in profit at the same time as they report massive losses, all of the financial executives plus Travis and Dara would be guilty of huge tax evasion and false reporting on a Bernie Madoff scale. Kalanick and Dara are both A holes, but I don't think they would be dumb enough to try to pull off a multi billion dollar tax fraud. Finally, if Uber were generating a profit, it would make no sense to falsely declare a loss because doing so lowers the value of the company and makes an IPO less attractive/viable.


> Common sense dictates they have to be making money on our rides due to the reasons I've already given.
> 
> Common sense also dictates that if their claims of record high $4 billion dollar losses are true, it's NOT due to losses in their rideshare business, but rather due to enormous expenditures in SDCs and various boondoggles.


Self reference criteria (I think something _must_ be true, therefore it is) is not an analysis method I would rely on, personally.


> If fuber is truly losing money on our rides despite the factors I pointed out, there's NO WAY they'll ever be able to make SDCs financially viable.


Who knows. They said man would never reach the moon. I'd say the odds are against Uber developing a successful/working/safe self driving/flying anything, though.


> That would mean their investors, especially Soft Bank who recently invested over $1 billion, are incredibly stupid businessmen.


Again, see Bernie Madoff, and the businessmen and international banks who invested in his Ponzi scheme. Sometimes businessmen and prestigious banks are, indeed, dumb.


> Suffice to say their zillionaire investors didn't get to where they are by being stupid.


Again, see Bernie Madoff investors.


----------



## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> So are you saying that, with current saturation, someone will always do each rideand there is no need for us to be tricked into taking rides, or that we have to be tricked into taking rides and then kept in line? You say both of these things, but they're contradictory.


With the oversaturation there is no real need for either. If they showed the destination on the ping then the cancellation rate and such things would no longer be an issue.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> So are you saying that, with current saturation, someone will always do each rideand there is no need for us to be tricked into taking rides, or that we have to be tricked into taking rides and then kept in line? You say both of these things, but they're contradictory.
> 
> Disagree. If we're talking about how Uber controls its drivers, then it's essential to state what a control is. In my book, a control is something that controls. It is not an optional feature which drivers can take or leave as they see fit. There is a big difference between the two.
> Incorrect. I said that Uber does indeed control its drivers. Does it force any driver to do anything? No, neither figuratively nor literally.
> ...


I'm done arguing the control stuff. You're all over the place with that.

More hair splitting with the words "proof" and "evidence"

As a private company, uber is under no legal obligation to provide numbers to the public, nor to provide truthful numbers to the public.

Given uber's track record of lying, why would you believe uber's numbers are truthful?

The IRS doesn't care if uber lies to the public, they only care if uber lies to them. I'm guessing uber is truthful to the IRS.

I've already laid out why I believe uber's making money on our rides. If you choose not to believe it, so be it.

I also said that even if uber is losing money overall, it's NOT because they're losing money on our rides. The vast majority of the overhead of every ride falls on the drivers, not uber.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

P


Nats121 said:


> You're not making sense, you're all over the place.
> 
> In your other post you said you were heading toward deactivation because of your cherry picking at the airport.
> 
> ...


I do call and often cancel. And when I get a passenger that's pissed. I suggest that they call and complain to Uber. It does then no good to complain to me.

The fact is I'm nothing of not conflicted and I guess it comes through

My problem and it's probably the reason I'm all over the place is that I want to be an independent contractor and not an employee. I'm not working for wages and don't want to.

I also believe that Uber can and should deactivate the cherry pickers after one or two warnings

And I've take the position that if you can't beat them, join them. But I'm not going to pretend I'm right

I was excited to read the title of this thread and I wish the op was right and we do now have the ok to cancel short rides at will but I don't think he is, at least not based on the minimum wage employee thing


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## Skepticaldriver (Mar 5, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> You're not making sense, you're all over the place.
> 
> In your other post you said you were heading toward deactivation because of your cherry picking at the airport.
> 
> ...


Guys shilling. Duh


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I would be long gone if Uberlyft deactivated for cherry picking, lol. My approach is to maximise my revenue, specifically and actively filtering out the low value pings as much as possible.


You get a four minute request to 312 Elm Street with a 4.85 rated pax. What are the indicators on that ping that would tell you it's low value?


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Coachman said:


> You get a four minute request to 312 Elm Street with a 4.85 rated pax. What are the indicators on that ping that would tell you it's low value?


If I ever release a (paid) guide on rideshare driving, ping evaluation and filtering would be one of the most important topics.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Coachman said:


> You get a four minute request to 312 Elm Street with a 4.85 rated pax. What are the indicators on that ping that would tell you it's low value?


It's easy. Most rides are under 5 miles, so by assuming low value, the odds are on your side.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Coachman said:


> You get a four minute request to 312 Elm Street with a 4.85 rated pax. What are the indicators on that ping that would tell you it's low value?


There's a difference between not accepting a ride and canceling a ride

The Time of day would give me a clue if it was 4 am and 312 Elm is a Denny's I'd assume it's a couple of drunks that went for breakfast after the bars closed. I'd just not accept. Or perhaps it's 5pm and 312 Elm is a business where the the employees get off at 5 pm. Chances are that it's an employee going home. So with some knowledge of my market area and the time of day I might have a good idea of what I'm getting into

But not accepting isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about cancelling after accepting the ride. Or perhaps after starting the ride. And then knowing where you are going is simple. Just ask the passenger.

With regard to long rides Uber has told me and the OP that if you are not comfortable doing the ride, you are free to cancel. The OP has taken this advice and extended it to short rides. I have done the same thing. I hope we are right, but I doubt it.


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## wontgetfooledagain (Jul 3, 2018)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Agreed. Uberlyft obviously conceals the destination because if they didn't then only the public service ride donators / hobbyist drivers would do the min. fare shorties, resulting in undersupply of drivers for this ride type. The only way they can get drivers to do them is by concealing the trip length and therefore trip revenue until the pax is in the car.
> 
> We drivers say that the answer is an $8/$10/etc min driver revenue per trip. Uber would argue that would mean increased prices for pax and that this would reduce demand, and they would be correct.
> 
> ...


Well written.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

oldfart said:


> There's a difference between not accepting a ride and canceling a ride
> 
> The Time of day would give me a clue if it was 4 am and 312 Elm is a Denny's I'd assume it's a couple of drunks that went for breakfast after the bars closed. I'd just not accept. Or perhaps it's 5pm and 312 Elm is a business where the the employees get off at 5 pm. Chances are that it's an employee going home. So with some knowledge of my market area and the time of day I might have a good idea of what I'm getting into
> 
> ...


You are free to cancel, but watch that cancel rate. Use them JUDICIOUSLY.

Look, driving 3 or 4 minutes (about 1 mile, or so) to p/u a pax going for a minimum fare ride (about 3 miles or less) isn't going to kill anyone. It's $3.71 for about 10 minutes of work. $22.26/hour. And it's not taking you all that far from where you started.

Now, drive 10 minutes or more to get to the p/u, and it's a whole different animal. Also different during rush hour when traffic moves slower.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

oldfart said:


> I was excited to read the title of this thread and I wish the op was right and we do now have the ok to cancel short rides at will but I don't think he is, at least not based on the minimum wage employee thing


I agree. The way I interpret Uber's response to him is that they "allow" drivers to cancel if the trip is too far for the driver, not because it's a shorty/not worth doing/etc. But, in any case, the fact they "allow" this amounts to nothing because they go on to say that, even when a driver cancels for this reason, Uber will not remove the cancellation from their cancellation rate.

Regarding the justification for cancellation based on below-minimum wage pay for a ride, I think that the issue is that he is trying to pitch logical argument against Uber Support, a move which in all cases is doomed to fail. It may well be that his argument against doing shorties is valid based on what he's said, but unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears and the only place he would get to use is it would be in an employment tribunal or after he were deactivated for cancellations.


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## Pulledclear (Oct 31, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> The definition of cherry-picking isn't limited to what you say it is.
> 
> Every time you decline a ping, you're cherry-picking. When you choose to drive in one area over another, you're cherry picking. The pax in the areas that you avoid need rides too.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for thralling us with your business acumen. You may want to re examine your status in the business community the next time you're cleaning up a pool of vomit in your "limousine".


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> I'm done arguing the control stuff. You're all over the place with that.


Incorrect. I have been quite clear about the types of control that Uber exerts over its drivers, even laying out multiple examples. I have also been clear in where the extent of their control ends - it is not true that Uber "forces" drivers to do anything, as you allege.


> More hair splitting with the words "proof" and "evidence"


Seriously? You think there is no material difference between proof and evidence and that differentiating them is hair splitting? Lol, I hope you never get arrested based on flimsy evidence for a crime you didn't commit. No, there is obviously a significant and material difference between proof and evidence. This is true in all areas requiring any analysis and evaluation of fact. In the legal field, the attorney who tells a jury that there is no difference between proof and evidence gets laughed out of court. The economist who claims the evidence for the validity of Keynesian economics is the same as proof that the theories are correct would ridiculed and mocked. Most of the comments you have made up to now have at least some degree of intelligent thought behind them, but claiming that proof vs evidence is hair splitting is just, no offense, plain dumb.

I will break it down. The difference between proof and evidence involves degree of certainty. Proof of profit or loss by Uber would give certainty that Uber is either making or losing money. But, as I said, there is no proof, so there is no point in you even bringing it up. The next step down from this is evidence. Something, anything, that might have more weight than the usual "I think this is true, therefore it is". Again, the people who say that Uber is making a profit are unable to do produce anything at all, from any source, that evidences a profit being made.

I might think that a green unicorn flies by my bedroom window farting golden unicorn dust every night. Using your logic, I think this must be true, therefore it is. But since I have no proof of this, or even any evidence at all, people aren't going to believe me.


> Given uber's track record of lying, why would you believe uber's numbers are truthful?


Already answered in my previous post. See above.


> I also said that even if uber is losing money overall, it's NOT because they're losing money on our rides. The vast majority of the overhead of every ride falls on the drivers, not uber.


Driver costs are not overheads for Uber. Overheads are fixed costs that are independent of output.

I think we need to move away from the pitchfork-and-lantern-carrying-mob mentality when criticising Uber, in the interests of adding credibility to the complaint. Uber is an ethics-free sociopathic organisation that wants to control as many aspects of its operations and its drivers operations as it can. It's as simple as that. What it is not is some kind of sinister organisation that forces people to do anything.


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## stpetej (Jul 3, 2017)

Trump Economics said:


> Grab some popcorn and have a seat...
> 
> View attachment 245350
> 
> ...


I like it. Will start doing the same.


----------



## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

Pulledclear said:


> Hey genius you take the good with the bad. Every ride is not going to be perfect. So suck it up and take your fair share of the bad ones or move on. Uber should deactivate cherry pickers.


 I cherrypick in various ways.

I get VERY few bad/unprofitable rides. I got tired of doing 10 minutes to pickup, wait 3 minutes for them to waddle their fat drunk asses out, then take them 10 minutes for $3.75. Thanks but no thanks.

I came up with a system (through a LOT of trial and error) that lets me get long rides. If I average under $20/trip I consider it a bad week.

DF is your friend when it comes to cherrypicking and avoiding bad unprofitable rides.

Big events (concerts/sporting events) I will cherrypick by calling and, in the course of conversation, find out destination. Too short? They're someone else's problem.

If you're NOT cherrypicking you're doing it wrong.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

New2This said:


> I cherrypick in various ways.
> 
> I get VERY few bad/unprofitable rides. I got tired of doing 10 minutes to pickup, wait 3 minutes for them to waddle their fat drunk asses out, then take them 10 minutes for $3.75. Thanks but no thanks.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Even the Bible advocates and endorses cherry picking:

_His winnowing fork is in his
hand, and he will thoroughly
cleanse his threshing floor. He
will gather his wheat into the
barn, but the chaff he will
burn up with unquenchable fire."

Matthew 3:12_

Now, I'm not saying we should burn up min. fare shorty pax with unquenchable fire. Maybe just the annoying drunk ones who ask for drive thru or water. But if keeping the wheat and discarding the chaff is good enough for God Almighty then it's good enough for me.


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## TheWanderer (Sep 6, 2016)

If you keep on asking them about they will tell you the cancellation rate.
I have been told by multiple people at Uber that their cancellation policy is if you go over the average cancellation rate of the previous week in your matket.
That number changes every week.
I have asked for a number multiple times but they would not disclose that information.
I suppose if I were to keep on asking they would eventually tell me what the average has been in the prior weeks.
As for Uber lying to me about it, why would they give that answer as a lie. It honestly keeps it more vague for them, also like I said multiple people over phone/in person/email have said this, unless it is some bigger conspiracy.
Also legitimate no show cancels also affect your cancellation rate, Uber doesn't discriminate on that lol.
Lyft says it is 15% but there are other ways they deactivate through cancellations, they use a strike system when you cancel too many rides in a row.


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## kdyrpr (Apr 23, 2016)

oldfart said:


> I'm not in California but I received a similar message from Uber with exactly the same wording. In addition my message has a line that said "we understand long rides may not be economical if you have to return home empty". Your message and the one I got mention long rides specifically.
> 
> The question is, can we extend this policy to short rides and cancel them as well
> 
> I have no problem accepting short rides when working the street, $5 for 5 min ride makes sense to me, but waiting at the airport for hours for a short ride is un economical. So I cancel these too. I can cancel 2 or 3 and retain my place in line.


You go to the back of the queue after the third cancel though.



Nats121 said:


> The definition of cherry-picking isn't limited to what you say it is.
> 
> Every time you decline a ping, you're cherry-picking. When you choose to drive in one area over another, you're cherry picking. The pax in the areas that you avoid need rides too.
> 
> ...


How is another driver getting "stuck for the ride"? There is no forced acceptance. If I truly felt that I was the only hope for someone to get a ride, believe it or not I may take it out of compassion. However, I know that isn't the case. There is always a driver who is WILLING to take it. Will the pax have to wait a few minutes longer? Maybe. But, that's a small price to pay. REMEBER we are providing a service that is nearly as cheap as a bus!


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## Koolbreze (Feb 13, 2017)

Trump Economics said:


> I disagree, but if I'm wrong, I will utilize their email at the unemployment hearing and reference their permission to cancel trips at leasure.
> 
> Employees are entitled to a clear outline of their job duties, including what is permissible with respect to cancellations, etc. This is the documentation they are providing, and this is what I'm going with. Unless you work for Uber's corporate offices, then your guess is as good as mine.


You are not an employee


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

According to New York (and other jurisdictions), they disagree.

You can read their ruling here: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8j6gW0YxEa7R19FaF80aDBtVWlpMGFVOTAzcVVHNS1GZVdJ/view



Koolbreze said:


> You are not an employee


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

-Days-of-Distortion- said:


> WHY would you wait for hours at the airport for a ride? seriously?!


 because I know I will get a ride> On the street I cant be sure


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## Rushmanyyz (Dec 1, 2017)

Trump Economics said:


> Grab some popcorn and have a seat...
> 
> View attachment 245350
> 
> ...


This is just stupid. If you feel this way, you're wasting time with nonsense. It will literally change nothing.

Quit and get a min-wage job if you make less than min on Uber. If you can't get a min-wage job...

No sympathy. None at all.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Exactly. Even the Bible advocates and endorses cherry picking:
> 
> _His winnowing fork is in his
> hand, and he will thoroughly
> ...


So Christian driver's could claim Uber's rule about cancelling for lack of profit excessively could be considered religious discrimination?


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> So Christian driver's could claim Uber's rule about cancelling for lack of profit excessively could be considered religious discrimination?


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

-Days-of-Distortion- said:


> WHY would you wait for hours at the airport for a ride? seriously?!





oldfart said:


> because I know I will get a ride> On the street I cant be sure


Can't be waiting for hours at the airport. Couple of hours at most would already dilute your earnings. You'd have to get a $40 ride to make that 2+ hours close to $20 gross. More than a couple? 3 hrs would mean $60 minimum... but how many rides actually end up being over $30? I guess if you cherry pick. Just make sure you don't do it three times, three times and you're out. Back to the back of the queue.

Versus if you were on the streets (at some point I would think you'd work out the times that the city is busy and the places that that usually has the most pings so effectively if you want to make good money your schedule is dictated by demand)- you could pick up five $5 dollar rides that takes less than a hour if it's near stacked or stacked pings.

Though, if you like to wait and you're feeling lucky, I guess airport runs aren't that bad. I like playing games on my phone and surfing the internet when I'm on the train on my way to work.


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

I'll take the small trips did 34 trips in 13 hours and 5 minutes gross $250.13. . I only do Uber for fun money. Car is paid for insurance I'd need any how where less than $1000. A year. 30 miles per gallon. Cost 10 cents a gallon & taxes . After all that ill net 75 percent . For the year.


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## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Can't be waiting for hours at the airport.


oldfart's market is Ft. Myers, FL. It's a small market, and you have to have small expectations. oldfart has found a way to work his market that works for him, gives him what he is looking for, and he's doing just fine. I operate very differently in Miami, but Ft. Myers (lovely as it is) is not Miami.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

My cancellation rate for the past few weeks is holding steady, and I have not gotten *any warnings* after dozens and dozens and dozens of back-to-back cancellations.










Trump Economics said:


> Grab some popcorn and have a seat...
> 
> View attachment 245350
> 
> ...


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## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

oldfart said:


> I got new information this morning, I'm at the airport now and the rumor is that Uber deactivated 13 drivers yesterday for cancelling short rides.
> 
> We had a group of drivers here (Ft Myers) that drove 100 miles from Miami to work at this airport. The rumor was that they had been deactivated in Miami for the same thing. So the question now is: was it the group from Miami or other of us local guys. I think it was the Miami guys because this morning they aren't here and all the regular local guys are
> 
> ...


The MIA queue has been fraudulent for a LONG time, and I doubt that Uber did anything about it. The local Uber folks are well aware of the issues and have done zero, nothing, nada. Which should tell the alert observer something...especially here in the Magic City!

Also, if they were deactivated in Miami, they couldn't drive in Ft. Myers no matter who their cousin is. Unless they got shut out of the MIA queue only -- which is inconceivable for drivers working for family fleets.

BTW, I don't think they use jammers. Those would be very dangerous at an airport (and illegal everywhere), and these slugs aren't that sophisticated anyway. They just have tons of accounts and lots of stolen phones.

BTW2 -- oldfart...did you used to hang out on TUG?


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Can't be waiting for hours at the airport. Couple of hours at most would already dilute your earnings. You'd have to get a $40 ride to make that 2+ hours close to $20 gross. More than a couple? 3 hrs would mean $60 minimum... but how many rides actually end up being over $30? I guess if you cherry pick. Just make sure you don't do it three times, three times and you're out. Back to the back of the queue.
> 
> Versus if you were on the streets (at some point I would think you'd work out the times that the city is busy and the places that that usually has the most pings so effectively if you want to make good money your schedule is dictated by demand)- you could pick up five $5 dollar rides that takes less than a hour if it's near stacked or stacked pings.
> 
> Though, if you like to wait and you're feeling lucky, I guess airport runs aren't that bad. I like playing games on my phone and surfing the internet when I'm on the train on my way to work.


I have a target income for the week , I dont keep track of hourly pay. Im 72 years old and have been working for the last 62 years, starting at age 10 delivering the Washington Post door to door I have never worked for an hourly wage. Ive been paid an annual salary, Ive worked for tips, and Ive been a commissioned salesman (stock broker and realestate) and Ive operated my own small businesses. And now I drive> Never in 62 years did I get paid an hourly wage I dont know how to think in those terms

I dont think that there 5 pings an hour anywhere in this market That might work if i was the only driver, but there are always several others hoping for those pings

so far this week Ive done 16 airport rides from a $12 to $60 averaging exactly $30

Now here's the secret.. everyone I take out of the airport gets my card and an offer to pick them up when they return. Typically for every 3 trips out I schedule 2 trips back (This week I only had 2 of these scheduled rides because i didnt work last week)

Anyhow, heres the deal: 5 airport rides (to or from) a day at $30, 6 days a week plus a couple of BS rides a day gets me to $1000 a week in the off season. I did better during season...

Im happy.....



JimKE said:


> .
> 
> BTW2 -- oldfart...did you used to hang out on TUG?


that would be me.....Im still there, just not as much as when I made my living with timeshares

whats your name on TUG


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## Lee239 (Mar 24, 2017)

Trump Economics said:


> Grab some popcorn and have a seat...
> 
> View attachment 245350
> 
> ...


Wrong , it says if the ride is too far away you can cancel. How would a short ride be too far. Please find another job, you are wasting your own time.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Can't be waiting for hours at the airport. Couple of hours at most would already dilute your earnings. You'd have to get a $40 ride to make that 2+ hours close to $20 gross. More than a couple? 3 hrs would mean $60 minimum... but how many rides actually end up being over $30? I guess if you cherry pick. Just make sure you don't do it three times, three times and you're out. Back to the back of the queue.
> 
> Versus if you were on the streets (at some point I would think you'd work out the times that the city is busy and the places that that usually has the most pings so effectively if you want to make good money your schedule is dictated by demand)- you could pick up five $5 dollar rides that takes less than a hour if it's near stacked or stacked pings.
> 
> Though, if you like to wait and you're feeling lucky, I guess airport runs aren't that bad. I like playing games on my phone and surfing the internet when I'm on the train on my way to work.


so you have worked the Ft Myers market in the off season and know which hours are the best
How about a share? If you don't know don't presume to advise

I've tried it both ways. Wait at the airport and work the street. I make more money at the airport in spite of the wait; than on the street

Actually I do it both ways I grab an early morning ride to the airport from my home and then usually wait for the first plane for a ride out. Then I work where the ride takes me. Often that means a ride back to the airport and I'll wait again for a ride out

I also ask every ride out of the airport how they are getting back; some people are locals going home but most are vacations or business trips. I give them my card and try to schedule the return ride. I'd say I get 50%. So for every two rides out I get one back. On a good day I have that early ride in, two long waits that result in two rides out and scheduled ride in. And when I'm on the street I often get another ride back to the airport

What's that?? 5 airport rides at about $25 and whatever street rides I get. (plus or minus depending on the time of the year)

I don't screen my rides but I do leave one phone with a friend when I can which cuts down the average wait considerably. (Wait 2 hours for the first ride, 2 minutes for the second)

My grandmother would say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Updated for Uber "a guaranteed ride out of the airport is worth god knows what on the streeet.



Lee239 said:


> Wrong , it says if the ride is too far away you can cancel. How would a short ride be too far. Please find another job, you are wasting your own time.


I ageee completely but I think a case could be made for cancelling the short rides too. I got the same message from Uber and it says "we understand that some long rides can be uneconomical, So feel free to cancel them"

So you are right it says "long rides" "especially when you have to return empty" and it gives the justification of "un economical". Short rides are uneconomical too especially when you have to wait several hours to get it

Bottom line Most guys feel justified screening short rides and Will keep doing it


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## MarkR (Jul 26, 2015)

MadTownUberD said:


> How do you know the destination unless you start the trip? Can you cancel once you've started the trip? I thought your only option was End Trip. Won't you get deactivated for too much cancellation?


As you are approaching the pick up point, start the trip and you'll know right away to end it or not. Let it be their problem and get out of there.


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## MadTownUberD (Mar 11, 2017)

MarkR said:


> As you are approaching the pick up point, start the trip and you'll know right away to end it or not. Let it be their problem and get out of there.





MadTownUberD said:


> Won't you get deactivated for too much...?


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