# California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles



## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

*California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles*










SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) - California will ban the sale of new gasoline-powered passenger cars and trucks in 15 years, Gov. Gavin Newsom announced Wednesday, establishing a timeline in the nation's most populous state that could force U.S. automakers to shift their zero-emission efforts into overdrive.

The plan won't stop people from owning gas-powered cars or selling them on the used car market. But in 2035 it would end the sale of all new such vehicles in the state of nearly 40 million people that accounts for more than one out of every 10 new cars sold in the U.S.

California would be the first state with such a mandate while at least 15 other countries have already made similar commitments, including Germany, France and Norway.

Newsom used the hood of a red, electric-powered Ford Mustang Mach-E to sign an executive order directing state regulators to develop new regulations to meet the deadline. He urged Californians to "pull away from the gas pumps" and encouraged other states to join California for the good of the environment and public health.

"If you want to reduce asthma, if you want to mitigate the rise of sea level, if you want to mitigate a loss of ice sheets around the globe, then this is a policy for other states to follow," Newsom said.

While environmental groups cheered the announcement, the oil industry panned it and the automakers' industry group sought a middle ground, saying it's committed to increasing zero-emission vehicles but through cooperation among governments and businesses, not by mandates.

Meantime, White House spokesman Judd Deere said flatly: "President Trump won't stand for it." And Larry Kudlow, Trump's economic adviser, labeled it a "very extreme" position that he doesn't think other states will follow.

Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden's campaign didn't comment directly on Newsom's plan. But spokesman Matt Hill said Biden believes electric vehicles can create "good-paying union jobs, dominate a fast-growing market worldwide, and meet the demands of the climate crisis."

Tailpipe exhaust from cars, pickups, tractor-trailer rigs and other transportation are the single largest source of air pollution, and California has by far the most cars on the road than any other state.

In 2017, the federal government said California emitted 266.5 million tons (241.8 million metric tons) of carbon dioxide from the burning of petroleum. That's about the same as the total emissions from Egypt, which has 2.5 times the population.

Newsom says his order will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 35%. But he stressed the benefits went beyond the environment, saying electric cars and trucks are "the next big global industry and California wants to dominate it."

California is already home to 34 electric vehicle manufacturers - including Tesla, the world's top-selling maker - and accounts for about half of all electric vehicle sales in the U.S.

Some auto industry analysts warned the timeline could be too fast for technology to catch up to customer's expectations. Battery life and manufacturing costs are still issues that haven't been resolved, said IHS Markit principal analyst Stephanie Brinley, who studies the North and South American auto markets.

On Tuesday, Tesla announced plans for cheaper batteries with higher energy density, but they are well into the future, she said.

"Even if you get a battery like Tesla is talking about, it's going to take time and money to get there," Brinley said.

Jessica Caldwell, executive director of insights at the Edmunds.com auto pricing site, said Newsom's announcement "does seem like this is a significant shot fired against" the internal combustion engine that is likely to trigger high-level meetings at all the auto companies, which were moving toward electric vehicles but didn't expect a zero-emissions mandate in 15 years.

Ford Motor Company said it agreed with Newsom that it's time to take action to address climate change. But the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, which represents Ford and most other automakers, said markets can't be built with mandates and bans.

The oil and gas industry, meanwhile, criticized Newsom for holding a news conference on Wednesday in front of nearly $200,000 worth of electric cars "as he told Californians that their reliable and affordable cars and trucks would soon be unwelcome in our state."

"Big and bold ideas are only better if they are affordable for us all," said Cathy Reheis-Boyd, president of the Western States Petroleum Association. "Our industry and the energy we provide will be the part of any solution."

Mary Nichols, chairwoman of the California Air Resources board tasked with writing regulations for the plan, said electric vehicles will be more affordable in 15 years and everyone will benefit from cleaner air.

California already has some of the most progressive climate laws in the country, putting it at odds with the Trump administration and it's more relaxed regulatory approach to environmental policy. The federal government has tried to end California's authority to set emission standards for cars and trucks, a move the state is fighting in court.

About a dozen states follow California's lead on auto emissions standards that are more restrictive than federal rules. If those states follow suit on zero-emission vehicles, it could have a huge impact on the U.S. automobile industry.

Governors from many of those states appeared with Newsom at an event on Wednesday sponsored by the U.S. Climate Alliance. They praised California's move, but they gave no immediate indication they would join it.

"We're going to be with you, the auto industry is going to be with you, as we move to zero emissions vehicles," Connecticut Gov. Ned Lamont said.

Newsom's order on Wednesday also targeted medium and heavy duty commercial trucks, saying he wants those to be 100% zero-emission vehicles by 2045 "where feasible."

On the oil production side, Newsom called on the state Legislature to end new fracking licenses by 2024. Fracking is a technique that allows energy companies to extract huge volumes of oil and gas from shale rock deep underground. It involves injecting high-pressure mixtures of water, sand or gravel and chemicals into rock. Fracking opponents says the chemicals involved threaten water supplies and public health.

"Newsom can't claim climate leadership while handing out permits to oil companies to drill and frack," said Kassie Siegel, director of the Center for Biological Diversity's Climate Law Institute. "He has the power to protect Californians from oil industry pollution, and he needs to use it, not pass the buck."

https://apnews.com/article/technology-gavin-newsom-california-4956d87b72b000a917eed27392d16d8b


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

well, if Calif increases the tax break for an all electric vehicle I'll order a Tesla the very next day. :thumbup:


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> *California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles*
> 
> View attachment 510057
> 
> ...


" ECO FASCISTS " !

ITS ALL BEEN DONE BEFORE.

NOW GO READ " AGENDA 21".

( like ive been asking you to do for 4 years!)






























FREE WILL !

THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF AGENDA 21
IS TO ELIMINATE PERSONAL VEHICLE OWNERSHIP
AND
PERSONAL PROPERTY OWNERSHIP

MORE CONTROL FOR GOVERNMENT THAT WAY.

DO NOT BUY INTO IT !


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

We're talking about something being proposed for 15 years from now and you're already scurrying to hide under your beds while the sky falls?
* 
Get real Trumpanzees!!!*

It's simply a proposal to answer the damage that fossil fuels are doing in this world. By the time this comes to fruition the auto industry will have been through changes and some of those changes, which the industry is already gearing towards, is getting away from fossil fuels.

Whether you agree with the damage climate change is doing to our world, or whether you believe the world is flat
or Jesus rode bareback on Tyrannosauruses Rex, the industrial world is gearing towards renewable energy. Not because it's the hoity toity green thing to do, but it's because they know the only way for them to sustain their profits is to change the way we energize our vehicles.
Simple as that!!


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

Pay no attention to the mismanaged forests that are turning the sky red with smoke, the century old neglected electric grid, or the zombie hordes of homeless. Instead, watch me sign a piece of paper on the hood of a car that will never be made in America.

"_But spokesman Matt Hill said Biden believes electric vehicles can create "good-paying union jobs, dominate a fast-growing market worldwide, and meet the demands of the climate crisis_."

They have a lot of good-paying union jobs in Cuautitlán Izcalli, Mexico? That's nice to know.












SHalester said:


> well, if Calif increases the tax break for an all electric vehicle I'll order a Tesla the very next day. :thumbup:


So with no taxpayer funded subsidy it isn't worth it?


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Mexico is paying for the wall. &#129318;‍♂ :whistling:



Johnny Mnemonic said:


> So with no taxpayer funded subsidy it just isn't worth it?


certainly not if I was being forced to buy one........in a decade or so. Simple fact is all electric vehicles still are a premium purchase over a gas veee-hick-cle.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> Pay no attention to the mismanaged forests that are turning the sky red with smoke, the century old neglected electric grid, or the zombie hordes of homeless. Instead, watch me sign a piece of paper on the hood of a car that will never be made in America.
> 
> "_But spokesman Matt Hill said Biden believes electric vehicles can create "good-paying union jobs, dominate a fast-growing market worldwide, and meet the demands of the climate crisis_."
> 
> ...


They will ALL come from Communist China !


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## njn (Jan 23, 2016)

SHalester said:


> well, if Calif increases the tax break for an all electric vehicle I'll order a Tesla the very next day. :thumbup:


They will remove all tax breaks and initiate an EV tax to replace the gas guzzler tax.

They will also tax by mile since people are buying less fuel.

They will not allow EV charging during peak hours.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

I think some of ya'll are over reacting. Remember Obama pushed billions into green energy in his first term. 

This helped birth companies like Tesla that inspired innovation. Funding and legislation now maybe critical to keep America's auto industry ahead of the curve.

From a long term point of view the next 100 years will be the inevitable death of the gas car worldwide. They will be phased out then eventually outlawed or permitted as collectibles.


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## IthurstwhenIP (Jan 12, 2018)

Air in California is total s—- not sure if air pollution is a left right issue,...you would think some common ground


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## losiglow (Dec 4, 2018)

Just a publicity stunt by the governor due to the fires blamed on climate change.


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

After 50 years, there will be unusable battery packs end up in landfills as the way one time used plastic bags do. Where will be a green land? 
Anyway, this is bad news for all gas station in CA. Stock price of Oil will be going down too. PG&E stock price will be going up and electric fees will go up as well.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I think some of ya'll are over reacting. Remember Obama pushed billions into green energy in his first term.
> 
> This helped birth companies like Tesla that inspired innovation. Funding and legislation now maybe critical to keep America's auto industry ahead of the curve.
> 
> From a long term point of view the next 100 years will be the inevitable death of the gas car worldwide. They will be phased out then eventually outlawed or permitted as collectibles.


Wish we could quit burning mileage robbing engine damaging corn alchohol in our cars !











Johnny Mnemonic said:


> Pay no attention to the mismanaged forests that are turning the sky red with smoke, the century old neglected electric grid, or the zombie hordes of homeless. Instead, watch me sign a piece of paper on the hood of a car that will never be made in America.
> 
> "_But spokesman Matt Hill said Biden believes electric vehicles can create "good-paying union jobs, dominate a fast-growing market worldwide, and meet the demands of the climate crisis_."
> 
> ...


Screw the Globalists !

Long Live the Sovereign United States !
















Make AMERICA GREAT AGAIN !

SCREW THE WORLD GOVERNMENT !



Wildgoose said:


> After 50 years, there will be unusable battery packs end up in landfills as the way one time used plastic bags do. Where will be a green land?
> Anyway, this is bad news for all gas station in CA. Stock price of Oil will be going down too. PG&E stock price will be going up and electric fees will go up as well.


PLASTIC
OIL MUST BE REFINED FOR PLASTICS.

Tires
Are made of OIL
NOT ELECTRICITY !

California CAN NOT SUPPORT ELECTRIC CARS !!!

REALITY .


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

* FREE WILL


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Canada would welcome California, Oregon, and Washington States should they wish to leave the UNITED STATES.
Our Feds just announced winding down OIL SANDS, and electrifying most passenger vehicles, and eliminating what little COAL we have left in our national energy mix.

To the Trumpists: You can have your FREEDOM to choke on your own obsolences...and the dinosaur fumes.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

tohunt4me said:


> Wish we could quit burning mileage robbing engine damaging corn alchohol in our cars !
> View attachment 510277
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't say Obama's green surge was perfect. Honestly he threw major cash at the wall to see what stuck.

What I am saying is funding and legislation pushed us to the cutting edge of electrified transportation.

We need to stay the global leader in this emerging market worth trillions.

Or we can cling to gas watch foreign countries catch up and pass us, then cry when American car manufacturers can't compete.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

Hah! I took a break from the politics section to check on this thread...

😂


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Canada would welcome California, Oregon, and Washington States should they wish to leave the UNITED STATES.
> Our Feds just announced winding down OIL SANDS, and electrifying most passenger vehicles, and eliminating what little COAL we have left in our national energy mix.
> 
> To the Trumpists: You can have your FREEDOM to choke on your own obsolences...and the dinosaur fumes.


Enjoy your " CARBON TAX "!
TRUDEAU'S FIRST ACT IN OFFICE.

EMBRACING GLOBALIST TAXATION !

( notice the windmill made of solar panels as my icon ?)



losiglow said:


> Just a publicity stunt by the governor due to the fires blamed on climate change.


Forest Fires should be CARBON TAXED !


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Lissetti said:


> Hah! I took a break from the politics section to check on this thread...
> 
> &#128514;


Sorry Lissetti me and tohunt4me did sorta go political.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

They WILL NOT STOP AT CARS !


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Sorry Lissetti me and tohunt4me did sorta go political.


Oh I'm perfectly fine with it. Have at it.
I was just laughing because I had to go back out and click again to make sure I had actually entered this thread or if I was still in the politics section.

&#128518;


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

tohunt4me said:


> They WILL NOT STOP AT CARS !
> 
> View attachment 510318


Good lawd &#128563; cow looks violated


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

&#128561;


TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Good lawd &#128563; cow looks violated


People
Will be NEXT !


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)




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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Canada would welcome California, Oregon, and Washington States should they wish to leave the UNITED STATES.


....ah, er, um isn't the border still closed between us?

I'd move; just need the same or higher paying job for wife unit. Not sure wo looking what sonographers make 'up' there.


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> Pay no attention to the mismanaged forests that are turning the sky red with smoke, the century old neglected electric grid, or the zombie hordes of homeless. Instead, watch me sign a piece of paper on the hood of a car that will never be made in America.
> 
> "_But spokesman Matt Hill said Biden believes electric vehicles can create "good-paying union jobs, dominate a fast-growing market worldwide, and meet the demands of the climate crisis_."
> 
> ...


You think that Ford is the only company that will make these E cars? 
How about some pressure on Ford to make them here?


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

SHalester said:


> ....ah, er, um isn't the border still closed between us?
> 
> I'd move; just need the same or higher paying job for wife unit. Not sure wo looking what sonographers make 'up' there.


We make less per year in most fields, but the healthcare is nice, the public education system is excellent, as is the general politeness and the fresh air are too,for the most part.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

I feel like when Ford releases a Raptor 0-60 in under 3 seconds, we will win over the gas car advocates.

The main thing holding EVs back right now isn't the technology. It's the main auto manufacturers are not on par with Tesla.

People want affordability, reliability, easy to find and replace parts, widespread availability for repair.

Tesla is mediocre to horrible in all said categories. If say Toyota was mass producing a Model 3 equivalent car at $25k a pop gas cars would be done tomorrow.

Right now is American auto chance to retake market share back from Asian companies. If this window passes and Honda, Toyota starts mass production on long range EVs first it will be our fault for halting progress when we had the advantage.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I feel like when Ford releases a Raptor 0-60 in under 3 seconds, we will win over the gas car advocates.
> 
> The main thing holding EVs back right now isn't the technology. It's the main auto manufacturers are not on par with Tesla.
> 
> ...


Toyota somewhat squandered the opportunity as they both tried to milk their hybrid tech over going big-batter EV. They also spent a lot on Hydrogen fuel cells (fool-cells) for passenger cars


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Toyota somewhat squandered the opportunity as they both tried to milk their hybrid tech over going big-batter EV. They also spent a lot on Hydrogen fuel cells (fool-cells) for passenger cars


Exactly, this is the opportunity to capitalize on the blunder not 10-20 years from now. Imho we should be aggressive NOW.

Also this can be one of those rare win wins. Democrats get clean and green legislation. Republicans get legislation pushing a big business industry of the near future.

The entire world will benefit from us defunding OPEC and demolishing their ability to influence modern nations through the production of oil.



Kurt Halfyard said:


> Toyota somewhat squandered the opportunity as they both tried to milk their hybrid tech over going big-batter EV. They also spent a lot on Hydrogen fuel cells (fool-cells) for passenger cars


Oh yea Kurt Canada could also join Alaska and become the 51st state, Puerto Rico the 52nd state.

The additional liberal votes would insure the USA dedicated to a green agenda.

I got a cowboy hat ready for you &#129312;


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> but the healthcare is nice


yeah, I'd have to do the entire exchange rate calculation to figure it out. No idea of housing costs, either. I'd worry about your universal health care (or whatever it is called); seems that would depress what the medical people make vs here in the US.

As long as there was a medium to large hospital with full time positions and the burg where we lived had =some= uber action, we'd move.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Big Lou said:


> You think that Ford is the only company that will make these E cars?
> How about some pressure on Ford to make them here?


Too late. Ford just signed a big contract for OAKVILLE ONTARIO (West of Toronto) to be a major Ford EV battery/vehicle hub.
GM is also in talks to retrofit their OSHAWA ONTARIO (East of Toronto) vacant plant (the massive site used to make Impalas, but nobody buys Impalas anymore, they buy SUVs) to pursue electrified GM products...


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Too late. Ford just signed a big contract for OAKVILLE ONTARIO (West of Toronto) to be a major Ford EV battery/vehicle hub.
> GM is also in talks to retrofit their OSHAWA ONTARIO (East of Toronto) vacant plant (the massive site used to make Impalas, but nobody buys Impalas anymore, they buy SUVs) to pursue electrified GM products...


Remember, the EV proposal is for 15 years from now and a lot can happen by then. 
My issue with this new green industry is at this stage, why are the car manufactures incentivizes enough to go outside America. 
What happened to this administrations boastings about keeping manufacturing in America. 
*I have that answer!*
The car companies, or for that matter, any manufacture has no allegiance to the American worker. I know Ford and GM are union workers under National *Automobile*, Aerospace, Transportation and General *Workers Union* of *Canada. 
So what are we....duck soup?*


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Big Lou said:


> Remember, the EV proposal is for 15 years from now and a lot can happen by then.
> My issue with this new green industry is at this stage, why are the car manufactures incentivizes enough to go outside America.
> What happened to this administrations boastings about keeping manufacturing in America.
> *I have that answer!*
> ...


This actually goes back to legislation federal down to local.

Taxes, unions, regulations, and government subsidies are driving forces moving companies out of America.


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> This actually goes back to legislation federal down to local.
> 
> Taxes, unions, regulations, and government subsidies are driving forces moving companies out of America.


That's not what I hear from the White House....They claim to have solved all those problems and the American worker is on top of the world. 
Of course, your analysis is correct today as it was a few years ago.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Big Lou said:


> That's not what I hear from the White House....They claim to have solved all those problems and the American worker is on top of the world.
> Of course, your analysis is correct today as it was a few years ago.


Depends how you look at it. The economy was very robust pre Covid due to both Obama and Trump.

We was at a economic low following the Great Recession with a limping gig economy at low pay. Obama's administration slowly but steady rebuilt the economy.

Trump threw gasoline on the economy once elected companies surged and wages surged.

This is all in comparison to President Bush time in office. The overall trend has been in decline since B. Clinton at the very least.


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## Jst1dreamr (Apr 25, 2019)

njn said:


> They will remove all tax breaks and initiate an EV tax to replace the gas guzzler tax.
> 
> They will also tax by mile since people are buying less fuel.
> 
> They will not allow EV charging during peak hours.


Sounds like you are the one that has been writing the tax rules in Ca. Yours sound just like the the real Ca govt.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Lissetti said:


> *California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles*
> 
> View attachment 510057
> 
> ...


This will be another paper tiger from California - they have made EV mandates before and then walked them back.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

We already have rolling blackouts on hot days in CA. We don’t produce enough electricity, and have to buy it from out of state sources. We’re shutting down nuclear and fossil-fueled energy plants, and taking down dams. Just where are we going to get the electricity to charge all those cars and trucks? Will we only be able to drive them on sunny days when the wind is blowing?  
I’m a fan of electric cars and plugin hybrids. I had one of the first Prius Plug-ins sold in CA in 2012, and drove it for seven years. A pure electric car would work great for me now, since I’m retired and don’t drive a lot. If it’s going to work, the state and manufacturers have a lot to do in the next fifteen years, in terms of infrastructure and reasonably priced vehicles with range similar to those powered by gasoline. Add in producing enough electricity to charge all those batteries. Otherwise, Newsome’s executive order is just a publicity gathering wish. And here we called Jerry Brown Governor Moonbeam.:laugh:


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

I wonder what the percentage of drivers who go more than say 250 miles a day are? How do you deal with range in this new e-world of autos?


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## TakeFive (Jan 17, 2020)

Big Lou said:


> We're talking about something being proposed for 15 years from now and you're already scurrying to hide under your beds while the sky falls? *
> Get real Trumpanzees!!!*
> 
> Simple as that!!


I'm always amazed and 'impressed' how well many can regurgitate propaganda from the Right.



TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I think some of ya'll are over reacting. Remember Obama pushed billions into green energy in his first term.
> 
> This helped birth companies like Tesla that inspired innovation. Funding and legislation now maybe critical to keep America's auto industry ahead of the curve.
> 
> From a long term point of view the next 100 years will be the inevitable death of the gas car worldwide. They will be phased out then eventually outlawed or permitted as collectibles.


Well stated.!.!

Renewables were easily Obama's biggest accomplishment.

Wind energy became so popular that the red states of Kansas and Oklahoma competed with each for wind energy by passing their own state incentives. The Big Red State of Texas is easily the largest wind producer. Xcel Energy recently established a new record for producing 70% of Colorado electricity from wind (mostly) and solar energy.

Ford and GM won't survive unless they come up with EV's. Ford's bonds have already been downgraded to junk status.

Those on the right 'always' paint everything as black and white. Things evolve; try asking your own kids.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

"_We've got to save the world
Someone else may want to use it_"
--George Harrison


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Older Chauffeur said:


> We already have rolling blackouts on hot days in CA


ha ha ha we have blackouts for 'wind' events. &#129318;‍♂


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

SHalester said:


> ha ha ha we have blackouts for 'wind' events. &#129318;‍♂


Exactly! :laugh: :biggrin:


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

TakeFive said:


> I'm always amazed and 'impressed' how well many can regurgitate propaganda from the Right.
> 
> Well stated.!.!
> 
> ...


When we say "go green" it does not mean hindering your right to burn gasoline. I simply means....fueling your stuff without fossil fuels as an alternative. 
Like it or not or whether you think it's an infringement on your rights to live free or die, it's simply another way to energize your cars in the future. 
It's going to happen and the proof is in the pudding. All major automotive and trucking industries are spending billions to convert....and why? To continue the profitability of their industry, not to satisfy some ideology.

Think Kodak Corp. they were the kings of the industry till the digital age came. They refused to see how to continue their revenue stream... Now where are they?

We no longer depend on Whale Oil to light up the night.
Buggy whips are a thing of the past.

Change for the sake of change is not relivent, but change for the sake of progress inevitable.

That's my thoughts and I'm sticking to it!


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

https://news.yahoo.com/letters-editor-no-gas-cars-100032019.html
From the article:

*Letters to the Editor: No gas cars in California? What's next from Newsom, an order forcing the sun to shine?*

Los Angeles Times Opinion_•_September 27, 2020









Battery-powered Teslas are loaded onto carriers at the company's electric car plant in Fremont last May. (Associated Press)

*To the editor:* Over the last few years we've been complaining that President Trump has acted like a dictator. But Gov. Gavin Newsom became an actual dictator by signing an order requiring all new cars sold in California to be zero emission by 2035.

Or did I miss a special election with that as a ballot measure?

Next week he will have to sign another executive order requiring the sun to shine 350 days a year (allowing for 15 rainy days, of course). Currently there are rolling blackouts on hot days; soon we will have blackouts on cold days, because in our all-electric future, there will be no natural gas.

Imagine blackouts every day when millions of electric cars plug in to recharge on the same day. We would all be better off if Newsom issued an executive order prohibiting the coronavirus in California.

_Arnie Sklar, Beverly Hills_
..


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> https://news.yahoo.com/letters-editor-no-gas-cars-100032019.html
> From the article:
> 
> *Letters to the Editor: No gas cars in California? What's next from Newsom, an order forcing the sun to shine?*
> ...


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## ohnos (Nov 2, 2019)

Lissetti said:


> *California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles*
> 
> View attachment 510057
> 
> ...


Well all the people that collect classic cars and old cars will move out. 
That it's self is a very large amount of people.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

ohnos said:


> Well all the people that collect classic cars and old cars will move out.
> That it's self is a very large amount of people.


I imagine the law will make an exemption for car collectors, but I think those people will be forced to register the cars as Collector/Classic vehicles, and will be restricted on how many miles a year they can drive the car.


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## Valar Dohaeris (May 25, 2019)

SHalester said:


> well, if Calif increases the tax break for an all electric vehicle I'll order a Tesla the very next day. :thumbup:


The climate doesn't have a price tag, Hale. You should be willing to pay $300,000 for an electric car if it means saving Trans-Mother Earth.

How selfish of you. "Your 401K matters more than human lives!"


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## ohnos (Nov 2, 2019)

Lissetti said:


> I imagine the law will make an exemption for car collectors, but I think those people will be forced to register the cars as Collector/Classic vehicles, and will be restricted on how many miles a year they can drive the car.


More restrictions more move out. I buy classics cars to drive and show off. 
Not sit and collect dust and rot away without the joy of driving on nice days.


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## Grumpy Old Man (Jul 7, 2018)

Valar Dohaeris said:


> The climate doesn't have a price tag, Hale. You should be willing to pay $300,000 for an electric car if it means saving Trans-Mother Earth.
> 
> How selfish of you. "Your 401K matters more than human lives!"


And just where do you think the electricity needed to charge these electric cars comes from?


----------



## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

ohnos said:


> More restrictions more move out. I buy classics cars to drive and show off.
> Not sit and collect dust and rot away without the joy of driving on nice days.


I also restore vintage and classic VWs. I had a large collection at one time. Now I just have two. Where I live, Washington state has had a war against cars for decades. We've had our local government give us enormous vehicle registration taxes and a high gas tax. Now, because the citizens complied and many own hybrids/fuel efficient cars, the government is looking at new ways to squeeze money out of us. A proposed pay per mile driven tax.

When the local government is looking for a way to squeeze money out of it's citizens, it will find multiple ways.

*State Transportation Commission to recommend changing Washington to a 'Pay Per Mile' state







*

https://uberpeople.net/threads/good...-per-mile-tax-on-drivers.367872/#post-5673919


----------



## ohnos (Nov 2, 2019)

Lissetti said:


> I also restore vintage and classic VWs. I had a large collection at one time. Now I just have two. Where I live, Washington state has had a war against cars for decades. We've had our local government give us enormous vehicle registration taxes and a high gas tax. Now, because the citizens complied and many own hybrids/fuel efficient cars, the government is looking at new ways to squeeze money out of us. A proposed pay per mile driven tax.
> 
> When the local government is looking for a way to squeeze money out of it's citizens, it will find multiple ways.
> 
> ...


That sucks really killing off the state. IL was trying to do a drive tax or did idk I don't drive ubercrap no more. IL is broken and corrupt past repair now so we are all moving out.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

ohnos said:


> That sucks really killing off the state. IL was trying to do a drive tax or did idk I don't drive ubercrap no more. IL is broken and corrupt past repair now so we are all moving out.


People are leaving Washington state but it's a combination of high cost of living, greedy taxing, and soft political leaders who allow CHOP and "protests" to destroy neighborhoods and businesses both big and small. Seems in the past few months our city government forgot about squeezing drivers (especially rideshare drivers) with this pay per mile tax, but I'm sure once our streets stop burning nightly, the city will be right back to over taxing it's citizens. I too am leaving, since I'm not from here. Not going back to New York though.


----------



## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

Lissetti said:


> I also restore vintage and classic VWs. I had a large collection at one time. Now I just have two. Where I live, Washington state has had a war against cars for decades. We've had our local government give us enormous vehicle registration taxes and a high gas tax. Now, because the citizens complied and many own hybrids/fuel efficient cars, the government is looking at new ways to squeeze money out of us. A proposed pay per mile driven tax.
> 
> When the local government is looking for a way to squeeze money out of it's citizens, it will find multiple ways.
> 
> ...


AKA, "moving the goal posts".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> the government is looking at new ways to squeeze money out of us. A proposed pay per mile driven tax.
> 
> When the local government is looking for a way to squeeze money out of it's citizens, it will find multiple ways.
> 
> *State Transportation Commission to recommend changing Washington to a 'Pay Per Mile' state*


People keep electing Democrats then act surprised that those elected act like Democrats when they take office. There is a name for that. We have a similar problem in this Washington.


----------



## Valar Dohaeris (May 25, 2019)

Grumpy Old Man said:


> And just where do you think the electricity needed to charge these electric cars comes from?


Naturally, @SHalester will spend 8-10 hours a day on a stationary bike generating his own power. He really believes what he preaches.


----------



## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

Another Uber Driver said:


> People keep electing Democrats then act surprised that those elected act like Democrats when they take office. There is a name for that. We have a similar problem in this Washington.


Did we though?

Maybe what Trump is afraid of is a reality with the mail in voting system, since Washington state has been a mail in voting state for over a decade

I didn't vote for them....


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

ohnos said:


> Well all the people that collect classic cars and old cars will move out.
> That it's self is a very large amount of people.





Lissetti said:


> I imagine the law will make an exemption for car collectors, but I think those people will be forced to register the cars as Collector/Classic vehicles, and will be restricted on how many miles a year they can drive the car.


Newsom executive order states that the restriction is for sales of new cars. I doubt very much this happen- it's in "the windmills of his mind." But if it does, it could mean a banner sales year for gas fueled car dealers in 2034.
At my local supermarket yesterday there was a guy gathering signatures to recall Newsom. :laugh:


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

Older Chauffeur said:


> We already have rolling blackouts on hot days in CA. We don't produce enough electricity, and have to buy it from out of state sources. We're shutting down nuclear and fossil-fueled energy plants, and taking down dams. Just where are we going to get the electricity to charge all those cars and trucks? Will we only be able to drive them on sunny days when the wind is blowing?
> I'm a fan of electric cars and plugin hybrids. I had one of the first Prius Plug-ins sold in CA in 2012, and drove it for seven years. A pure electric car would work great for me now, since I'm retired and don't drive a lot. If it's going to work, the state and manufacturers have a lot to do in the next fifteen years, in terms of infrastructure and reasonably priced vehicles with range similar to those powered by gasoline. Add in producing enough electricity to charge all those batteries. Otherwise, Newsome's executive order is just a publicity gathering wish. And here we called Jerry Brown Governor Moonbeam.:laugh:


You have to remember its only 2020, electricity is a trend that people toy with for a while like any other fad. You can't expect power at all times. That's just silly! &#128514; &#128514; &#128514;

My wife is about to go full electric in the next couple of months once the Mustang Mach-E's roll out though she did show the first signs of concern last month when we were heading home from Las Vegas. We passed a Tesla Supercharger and she asked again about the range of the Mach-E. I told her we would have to charge it at some point the range is about 300 miles and our trip to LV was 420 miles each way. It won't be the same as my Plug-in Fusion...

The Tesla Supercharger network is good though and doing a 80% quick charge is not all that bad. We still have no idea how Ford will deal with charging the Mach-E


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> I didn't vote for them....


The City Council in this Washington passed a bill that was a knee-jerk reaction to the Floyd business. Our Mayor voiced opposition to it, but, as it passed unanimously, she could not veto it.

One thing that it does is bar the police from doing anything about a "peaceful" protest, even if they are blocking the streets but do not have a permit to do so. Our City Council had defined a protest as "peaceful" even if they are trashing property, as long as they do not set fires. This means that they can trash the outdoor dining areas that restaurants have set up, at _their_ expense and chase away the restaurants' customers.

The owners did demand that the police do something, but, the police told them what was what.

Anytime a representative from one of the Hotel/Restaurant trade groups testifies before the City Council, or, any D.C. Government Agency, for that matter, said representative is always quick to remind everyone how much money the Hotel and Restaurant businesses both put into the local economy and especially how much they put into individual Councilmembers and the Mayor's campaign coffers.

They did this when they testified before the City Council in favour of allowing unregulated competition to take away the customers from an overregulated taxicab business. They got their way. The Hotel and Restaurant trade groups here always have hated the cab drivers and companies.

I expect that these restaurant owners will be reminding the City Councilmembers about this when they come around with their hands out to them.

My Ward seat is not up this time, but he is useless, anyhow and I never have and never will vote for him. We have two at-large incumbents up for re-election and I will vote for anyone BUT them.



Older Chauffeur said:


> At my local supermarket yesterday there was a guy gathering signatures to recall Newsom.


It took ninety two years, but there has been one successful recall of California Governor; Gray Davis. Once the hand is bloodied, it becomes easier. Ever since a 1911 law allowed recall, there has been an effort to recall every governor in California, although most of them fizzled quickly.. Davis, in 2003, was the firt to succeed.

No less a publication than the _Washington Times_ came out against the recall.


----------



## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Fusion_LUser said:


> The Tesla Supercharger network is good though and doing a 80% quick charge is not all that bad. We still have no idea how Ford will deal with charging the Mach-E :frown:


Tesla and Target just opened a 12 car Supercharger station this week, about a mile from my house. There were three cars plugged in at 9:00 this morning, with nobody around. Hard to imagine folks with the bucks it takes to drive a Tesla shopping at Target, but there's not much else to do. :whistling:
Now, if I could justify owning such a high priced car for the limited driving I do...:wink:


----------



## ohnos (Nov 2, 2019)

Another Uber Driver said:


> People keep electing Democrats then act surprised that those elected act like Democrats when they take office. There is a name for that. We have a similar problem in this Washington.


Keep telling people to stop voting these corrupt people in.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Valar Dohaeris said:


> Naturally, @SHalester will spend 8-10 hours a day on a stationary bike generating his own power.


sure, no problem. Not sure what that has to do with the thread, tho? &#129318;‍♂


----------



## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

First, tax break to offer incentive to switch from gas to electric. (Tax break shrinks over time)

Second, ban sales of new gas powered cars.

Third, tax the shit out of electricity or sales of electric cars to _cover_ lost revenue from gasoline tax.

Of course, you're obviously not being forced to buy a new car in 2035. You could always buy used or buy before 2035.

Some CONSUMERS just _have_ to have the newest PRODUCT!


----------



## njn (Jan 23, 2016)

Matt Farah just build a parking garage and was only allowed two ev chargers due to the law and power requirements.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Valar Dohaeris said:


> The climate doesn't have a price tag, Hale. You should be willing to pay $300,000 for an electric car if it means saving Trans-Mother Earth.
> 
> How selfish of you. "Your 401K matters more than human lives!"


Nice touch . . .

" Trans Mother Earth". !


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Big Lou said:


> Think Kodak Corp. they were the kings of the industry till the digital age came. They refused to see how to continue their revenue stream... Now where are they?
> 
> We no longer depend on Whale Oil to light up the night.
> Buggy whips are a thing of the past.


The big difference is film, whale oil, and buggy whips were not banned. Consumers chose alternatives because they saw a better value in the alternatives.


----------



## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

bsliv said:


> The big difference is film, whale oil, and buggy whips were not banned. Consumers chose alternatives because they saw a better value in the alternatives.


If you think that consumers have the choice, you'd better think again. 
Whale oil became instinct with electricity.
Buggy whips had no market after the fossil burning modes of transportation became more officiant than horses. 
The banning of gas burning vehicles , not only would be unconstitutional in my view, but the market place will dictate the taste of the American consumer. Especially as the cost and price of EV vehicles and the technology continues to got down.

Like it or not.....since we banned whale oil consumption ,,,the population of whales has rebounded. 
DDT was indispensable in agriculture and increased the production but since it was banned,......the pelicans have come back. 
The Jury is still out on fossil fuels since the Flat Earth influence is strong but the evidence is also strong.

What to do? What do do?
I say you cannot stop progress.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Big Lou said:


> If you think that consumers have the choice, you'd better think again.
> Whale oil became instinct with electricity.
> Buggy whips had no market after the fossil burning modes of transportation became more officiant than horses.
> The banning of gas burning vehicles , not only would be unconstitutional in my view, but the market place will dictate the taste of the American consumer. Especially as the cost and price of EV vehicles and the technology continues to got down.
> ...


Cant stop Nature Either !

1 solar flare E.M.P. Event
Will destroy the grid !

Good luck putting all of your eggs in 1 basket.






























Almost HAPPENED in 2012 !









The Amish will Survive.



Valar Dohaeris said:


> Naturally, @SHalester will spend 8-10 hours a day on a stationary bike generating his own power. He really believes what he preaches.


Maybe a " Cow pack " backpack to collect Methane ?



njn said:


> Matt Farah just build a parking garage and was only allowed two ev chargers due to the law and power requirements.


Elon Musk
Is DIGGING TUNNELS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

ONE MUST ASK WHY !

ONE MUST ASSESS THE REALITIES.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

ColdRider said:


> First, tax break to offer incentive to switch from gas to electric. (Tax break shrinks over time)
> 
> Second, ban sales of new gas powered cars.
> 
> ...


Its a lot like ATM's. At first they were free and bank's encouraged you to use them as they were cheaper for the banks. As people used ATM's more and more banks cut back on bank staff to save money.

When more and more people started using ATM's because it took forever to deal with bank staff banks started charging big time to use the ATM as it cost more to have ATM's!


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Big Lou said:


> If you think that consumers have the choice, you'd better think again.


Of course consumers have a choice, even when items are banned.



Big Lou said:


> Whale oil became instinct with electricity.


Whale oil was not banned, it became too expensive due to the over hunting of whales in the mid 19th century. Rockefeller became extremely rich by extracting kerosene from oil and transporting the kerosene to where it needed to be. Edison's electric light bulb was developed in 1894 but it took a while before it became common. Kerosene was not banned. Consumer chose kerosene and then electricity because the consumer perceived a greater value in the newer technology.

Buggy whips were not banned. Consumer perceived a greater value in the newer technology. Ford, by creating inexpensive cars, became extremely rich.



Big Lou said:


> The banning of gas burning vehicles , not only would be unconstitutional in my view,


I tend to agree.



Big Lou said:


> the market place will dictate the taste of the American consumer


Consumers will chose the product that they perceive has the highest value for their particular needs and wants. I think we agree. With today's infrastructure, a person who frequently drives cross country will chose a car with an internal combustion engine. A person who only drives once a week down the block to the grocery store would be fine with an electric vehicle.



Big Lou said:


> banned whale oil consumption


Commercial hunting of whales was banned in 1986. Whale oil became more expensive than kerosene about 120 years earlier.



Big Lou said:


> DDT was indispensable in agriculture and increased the production but since it was banned,


DDT was banned due not only due to its effect on wildlife but its effect on humans. Obviously, it was not indispensable since farming continued without it. Farmers took an economic hit but alternatives developed. I am against most regulation. If someone wants to hurt themselves, oh well. If someone wants to hurt me and I can't stop them, regulation may be necessary. Farmers using DDT hurt me and I couldn't stop them.



Big Lou said:


> I say you cannot stop progress.


... except with government intervention. Consumers perceived Uber as progress over taxis. Uber can be legislated out of business.


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

tohunt4me said:


> Cant stop Nature Either !
> 
> 1 solar flare E.M.P. Event
> Will destroy the grid !
> ...


wow tohunt ...back off the wed a bit .. you're in the paranoia territory. Peak out your curtains and tell us what you see &#128513;


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

dauction said:


> wow tohunt ...back off the wed a bit .. you're in the paranoia territory. Peak out your curtains and tell us what you see &#128513;


Almost happened in 2012.

FACT.


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

tohunt4me said:


> Almost happened in 2012.
> 
> FACT.


Most of the energy issues in California are related to fraud ...

2000-01 California electricity crisis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from California electricity crisis)
Jump to navigationJump to search
Chronology[1][2][3]
1996 California begins to modify controls on its energy market and takes measures ostensibly to increase competition.
September 23, 1996 Pete Wilson signs Electric Utility Industry Restructuring Act (Assembly Bill 1890) and it becomes law.[4]
April 1998 Spot market for energy begins operation.
May 2000 Significant rise in energy prices.
June 14, 2000 Blackouts affect 97,000 customers in San Francisco Bay area during a heat wave.
August 2000 San Diego Gas & Electric Company files a complaint alleging manipulation of the markets.
January 17-18, 2001 Blackouts affect several hundred thousand customers.
January 17, 2001 Governor Davis declares a state of emergency.
March 19-20, 2001 Blackouts affect 1.5 million customers.
April 2001 Pacific Gas & Electric Co. files for bankruptcy.
May 7-8, 2001 Blackouts affect upwards of 167,000 customers.
September 2001 Energy prices normalize.
December 2001 Following the bankruptcy of Enron, it is alleged that energy prices were manipulated by Enron.
February 2002 Federal Energy Regulatory Commission begins investigation of Enron's involvement.
Winter 2002 The Enron Tapes scandal begins to surface.
November 13, 2003 Governor Davis ends the state of emergency.
The 2000-01 California electricity crisis, also known as the Western U.S. energy crisis of 2000 and 2001, was a situation in which the U.S. state of California had a shortage of electricity supply caused by market manipulations and capped retail electricity prices.[5] The state suffered from multiple large-scale blackouts, one of the state's largest energy companies collapsed, and the economic fall-out greatly harmed Governor Gray Davis's standing.

Drought, delays in approval of new power plants,[5]:109 and market manipulation decreased supply.[6] This caused an 800% increase in wholesale prices from April 2000 to December 2000.[7]:1 In addition, rolling blackouts adversely affected many businesses dependent upon a reliable supply of electricity, and inconvenienced many retail consumers.

*California had an installed generating capacity of 45 GW. At the time of the blackouts, demand was 28 GW. A demand-supply gap was created by energy companies, mainly Enron, to create an artificial shortage. Energy traders took power plants offline for maintenance in days of peak demand to increase the price.[8][6] Traders were thus able to sell power at premium prices, sometimes up to a factor of 20 times its normal value*. Because the state government had a cap on retail electricity charges, this market manipulation squeezed the industry's revenue margins, causing the bankruptcy of Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E) and near bankruptcy of Southern California Edison in early 2001.[7]:2-3

The financial crisis was possible because of partial deregulation legislation instituted in 1996 by the California Legislature (AB 1890) and Governor Pete Wilson. Enron took advantage of this deregulation and was involved in economic withholding and inflated price bidding in California's spot markets.[9]

The crisis cost between US$40 and $45 billion.[7]:3-4

There is UNLIMITED Energy coming for the Sun...it is best for consumers to install solar


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

How effective was the 'whale oil' industry at spreading anti-electricity propaganda?
How effective was the horse and buggy industry at spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt regarding the 'horseless carriage?'
The literacy rate in the 19th century was much lower, and information (positive and negative) was a LOT slower, partiucularly at sowing doubt.
So many forward issues are stymied due to the well funded troll farms pumping out nonsense to muddy the waters.

The internet has been awesome at some things, but big-oil think tanks and political operators have been spreading fear and mis-information about electric cars. This is particularly a thing in the United States, where their public education system seems to churn out a distinct lack of critical thinkers, who spread nonsense on Facebook and other social platforms.

Countries like Norway, Finland, Germany and Denmark, who have a very high index of quality public education have adopted these new technologies and are going forward with them at full speed. This is yet another vector where America (and by proxy, Canada) will be left behind in the future. The anti-EV, anti-progress, MAGA crowd are only pushing the USA in the direction of the 20th century, instead of the 22nd century. California is the exception. Of course there are growing pains, but hopefully California will win and the bible-belt states will lose this conflict in the US.


----------



## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> *California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles*


@Lissetti my UP sister! Wow, what an eye opening article. Just imaging the era of gas powered engines coming to an end... weird. This is going to change everything... Think of all the auto mechanics who will now have to learn to work on electric powered vehicles!


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Young Kim said:


> @Lissetti my UP sister! Wow, what an eye opening article. Just imaging the era of gas powered engines coming to an end... weird. This is going to change everything... Think of all the auto mechanics who will now have to learn to work on electric powered vehicles!


Except that half of the mechanics will be out of work, because EVs require SIGNIFICANTLY less maintenence.
This is a good thing, as a customer, I want to bring my vehicle to the 'shop' as little as possible.
A portion of Auto-Mechanics and dealerships will have to find other things to do to put food on the table.

There will still be plenty of auto body work until Self-Driving algorithms take over in 10-20 years. Humans bump their vehicles into each other at a fairly high rate.
There will still be plenty of suspension work, until municipal politicians figure out that their job is (mainly) to fix the damn roads.


----------



## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Except that half of the mechanics will be out of work, because EVs require SIGNIFICANTLY less maintenence.
> This is a good thing, as a customer, I want to bring my vehicle to the 'shop' as little as possible.
> A portion of Auto-Mechanics and dealerships will have to find other things to do to put food on the table.
> 
> ...


Good point my brother moderator. Other than seeing so many mechanics out of work, I look forward to when EVs take over the road.


----------



## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Except that half of the mechanics will be out of work, because EVs require SIGNIFICANTLY less maintenence.
> This is a good thing, as a customer, I want to bring my vehicle to the 'shop' as little as possible.
> A portion of Auto-Mechanics and dealerships will have to find other things to do to put food on the table.
> 
> ...


To hell with all those mechanics! They can just drive uber or collect government assistance am I right?


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ColdRider said:


> To hell with all those mechanics! They can just drive uber or collect government assistance am I right?


Specific "Jobs" are not guaranteed to exist forever. As a free-market nation, you should agree that if a job has no value (as the market will bear), it shouldn't exist.

I don't see a lot of 'photo developing kiosks' in the parkinglots anymore, after digital cameras and mobile phones wiped out 99% of the 35mm film camera market over a 5 years span in the mid-aughts.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> How effective was the 'whale oil' industry at spreading anti-electricity propaganda?


Whale oil gave rise to the kerosene market due to a lack of whales and the increasing price of whale oil. The market decided kerosene was a better value. Whale oil was not banned. Consumers made their choice.



Kurt Halfyard said:


> I don't see a lot of 'photo developing kiosks'


Film was not banned. Consumers made their choice.



Kurt Halfyard said:


> How effective was the horse and buggy industry at spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt regarding the 'horseless carriage?'


Cars were not universally accepted. Many thought horses were safer. And they were. But consumer thought cars were a better value. Horses were not banned. Consumers made their choice.

Internal combustion engines will be banned in Kalifornia. Consumers won't have a choice. That is a centrally planned decision. That is not a free market at work. Give consumers their choice. Freedom vs. force.

I am not anti electric vehicle. I have flown rc aircraft for 40 years. I've converted all but one of my planes to electric. I understand the differences between dirty, gas powered motors vs clean electric motors. I had the freedom to made the choice. If EV's had the range I require, I'd switch to EV's. But the battery tech is not yet adequate. Maybe in 15 years the tech will be there which will make the governor's dictate irrelevant. As it stands today, this dictate is to attract votes.

When will Kalifornia force its citizens to eat their vegetables?


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

bsliv said:


> Whale oil gave rise to the kerosene market due to a lack of whales and the increasing price of whale oil. The market decided kerosene was a better value. Whale oil was not banned. Consumers made their choice.
> 
> Film was not banned. Consumers made their choice.
> 
> ...


When U.N. AGENDA 21 BANS MEAT !

CALIFORNIA WILL BE ON BOARD !


----------



## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Specific "Jobs" are not guaranteed to exist forever. As a free-market nation, you should agree that if a job has no value (as the market will bear), it shouldn't exist.
> 
> I don't see a lot of 'photo developing kiosks' in the parkinglots anymore, after digital cameras and mobile phones wiped out 99% of the 35mm film camera market over a 5 years span in the mid-aughts.


Oh I agree. I work for an industrial automation firm and have no problem replacing jobs done by humans with robots, cameras and sensors.

Machines don't take days off or complain that their feet hurt or that they didn't get a tip. Do you agree?

You looking forward to automated cars?


----------



## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

bsliv said:


> Of course consumers have a choice, even when items are banned.
> 
> Whale oil was not banned, it became too expensive due to the over hunting of whales in the mid 19th century. Rockefeller became extremely rich by extracting kerosene from oil and transporting the kerosene to where it needed to be. Edison's electric light bulb was developed in 1894 but it took a while before it became common. Kerosene was not banned. Consumer chose kerosene and then electricity because the consumer perceived a greater value in the newer technology.
> 
> ...


That's a lot to take in* bliv,*
I agree, the consumer will always choose value until it's turns as it inevitably historically has without drastic regulations. No body loves being regulated but there are times when government has to exercise their duties to protect the people from harm. Even then, biting into the profits of some cannot be helped.

You can't put the Uber/Lyft model back in the toothpaste tube. AB5 was enacted because of the pressure some U/L drivers placed on their legislators and look at the chaos we have now. It will settle down and we'll drive again. May not be with Uber/Lyft or the same model, but profits are the name of the game. Too much money to be had.



tohunt4me said:


> When U.N. AGENDA 21 BANS MEAT !
> 
> CALIFORNIA WILL BE ON BOARD !


I didn't see meat on the UN Agenda 21*non binding agreement.*
Sustainable Developement is not a bad thing. Is it?
When you have 178 nations agreeing on anything, there are bound to be some disagreeable sections. 
What's wrong with.........

 the development of agricultural practices that do not degrade groundwaters; 
Design and management of landfills using the best practicable and best available technology;
Prevention of aquifer pollution
Control of accidental and/or deliberate spills in national and/or transboundary water bodies;
Your meat is safe with this NON BINDING agreement. It's a good read.


----------



## OC-Moe (Oct 6, 2018)

https://apnews.com/article/climate-...gavin-newsom-a00a0d4e495fbc2f7714a7f3228ec6fb


----------



## njn (Jan 23, 2016)

dauction said:


> There is UNLIMITED Energy coming for the Sun...it is best for consumers to install solar


In NJ buildings were not allowed to install solar panels if their neighbor did. The grid can't handle the power.


----------



## Valar Dohaeris (May 25, 2019)

ColdRider said:


> To hell with all those mechanics! They can just drive uber or collect government assistance am I right?


Maybe they can just learn to code along with WaPo & NYT "reporters"?


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

bsliv said:


> When will Kalifornia force its citizens to eat their vegetables?


Last time I checked, you are free to move out of Kalifornia...


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Lissetti said:


> *California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles*
> 
> View attachment 510057
> 
> ...


 15 years from now we will be close where we are now .. lithium are limited supply


----------



## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

Lissetti said:


> *California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles*
> 
> View attachment 510057
> 
> ...


California has no idea what they are doing...with most things. Have fun charging all those electric cars with energy they don't have.


----------



## UberTrent9 (Dec 11, 2018)

Oogie Pringle said:


> California has no idea what they are doing...with most things. Have fun charging all those electric cars with energy they don't have.


Remember, Joe Biden has all the answers, he'll fix all of this, just you wait.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

UberTrent9 said:


> Remember, Joe Biden has all the answers, he'll fix all of this, just you wait.


----------



## Grumpy Old Man (Jul 7, 2018)

tohunt4me said:


> View attachment 523732


Yeah, four years, no sweat.



Grumpy Old Man said:


> Yeah, four years, no sweat.


If he lives that long?


----------



## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)




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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Grumpy Old Man said:


> Yeah, four years, no sweat.
> 
> 
> If he lives that long?


Biden not that bad but he choice the wrong vice president they may push US to become like India . .. back to slavery


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

Lissetti said:


> View attachment 523853


Joe wants open borders. We are a sovereign nation. Biden voters are anti-American.


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## Grumpy Old Man (Jul 7, 2018)

Gby said:


> Biden not that bad but he choice the wrong vice president they may push US to become like India . .. back to slavery


Don't get me wrong, he seems like a nice enough guy, I just think he will be easily manipulated by the left.
(A thing the left are particularly good at) Who knows, maybe he will have all the answers.....though I doubt it.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

Oogie Pringle said:


> Joe wants open borders. We are a sovereign nation. Biden voters are anti-American.


He's saying he recognizes America is a nation created of immigrants. Trump's own Scottish/German ancestors were immigrants.

I also see Biden saying he's going to heavily scrutinize border screening. I don't see him saying sneak in by any means necessary.


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

Lissetti said:


> He's saying he recognizes America is a nation created of immigrants. Trump's own Scottish/German ancestors were immigrants.
> 
> I also see Biden saying he's going to heavily scrutinize border screening. I don't see him saying sneak in by any means necessary.


We take in more LEGAL immigrants than any other country on earth. The people that surround (and control) Biden will be letting in millions of ILLEGALS. Thats who you voted for.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

He's to busy sniffing little girls hair. So don't expect much. Seems the pics of Kamy are gone too.


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

Grumpy Old Man said:


> Yeah, four years, no sweat.
> 
> 
> If he lives that long?


Trump for Congress 2022. ("Peaceful" Biden supporters riot). Trump for Prez 2024. ("Peaceful" Biden supporters riot again)


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

Oogie Pringle said:


> We take in more LEGAL immigrants than any other country on earth. The people that surround (and control) Biden will be letting in millions of ILLEGALS. Thats who you voted for.


We don't know for certain what he will do. I say give him a chance. He says he want to be the people's president, not just liberal democrats. That tells me he will work with the left and the right. I don't think opening the floodgates on our immigration is going to make either side happy when right now, the state of our country is not in a position to take on many more people. We've got the virus and civil unrest to deal with.


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

Lissetti said:


> We don't know for certain what he will do. I say give him a chance. He says he want to be the people's president, not just liberal democrats. That tells me he will work with the left and the right. I don't think opening the floodgates on our immigration is going to make either side happy when right now, the state of our country is not in a position to take on many more people. We've got the virus and civil unrest to deal with.


Until he publicly denounces AOC/The Squad/The Far Left (Bernie, Pocahontas, etc)....never mind - he won't.


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Lissetti said:


> He's saying he recognizes America is a nation created of immigrants. Trump's own Scottish/German ancestors were immigrants.
> 
> I also see Biden saying he's going to heavily scrutinize border screening. I don't see him saying sneak in by any means necessary.


Trump got wrong on immigration . He treated those immigrants like in Auschwitz. He ripped off the child's from their mother arm in 20 century kind of creepy criminal minds could do something like this when they could find little more human way of theatment . US it is fresh country build by immigrants . Who come legally or illegally .. many are not admit this matter but the truth can not be hide



Oogie Pringle said:


> We take in more LEGAL immigrants than any other country on earth. The people that surround (and control) Biden will be letting in millions of ILLEGALS. Thats who you voted for.


You take immigrants because the country are still under development and the land surface it hold triple of existing population .. without immigrants this land it was like wast Land still with native Americans living under tent camp


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

Gby said:


> Trump got wrong on immigration . He treated those immigrants like in Auschwitz. He ripped off the child's from their mother arm in 20 century kind of creepy criminal minds could do something like this when they could find little more human way of theatment . US it is fresh country build by immigrants . Who come legally or illegally .. many are not admit this matter but the truth can not be hide


You must have been voted the Drama Queen in high school. Auschwitz? Really? If you support illegal immigration, you may be an American citizen, but you are definitely not American. True "Americans" believe we are a sovereign nation.



Gby said:


> Trump got wrong on immigration . He treated those immigrants like in Auschwitz. He ripped off the child's from their mother arm in 20 century kind of creepy criminal minds could do something like this when they could find little more human way of theatment . US it is fresh country build by immigrants . Who come legally or illegally .. many are not admit this matter but the truth can not be hide
> 
> 
> You take immigrants because the country are still under development and the land surface it hold triple of existing population .. without immigrants this land it was like wast Land still with native Americans living under tent camp


For your information, the "Native" Americans were slaughtering each others tribes for thousands of years before it was settled by Europeans. We "take" immigrants through legal channels. Not because of the feelings that useless "woke" idiots have. Facts don't care about your feelings.


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## 195045 (Feb 2, 2020)

Oogie Pringle said:


> You must have been voted the Drama Queen in high school. Auschwitz? Really? If you support illegal immigration, you may be an American citizen, but you are definitely not American. True "Americans" believe we are a sovereign nation.
> 
> 
> For your information, the "Native" Americans were slaughtering each others tribes for thousands of years before it was settled by Europeans. We "take" immigrants through legal channels. Not because of the feelings that useless "woke" idiots have. Facts don't care about your feelings.


I know everything you know because I'm born and educated in Europe . All humans have been slaughtering each other sice they know each other there are not true American exempt the native humans of the Land ..let's assume your family came early claim their land without being theirs then now another's humans came and claim are theirs to &#128512;&#128512;&#128512;. For your memory the flow of immigrants and slave had been made this country great as is .. I'm pretty sure not to long ago your ancestors come from somewhere to and contributed to development of this country .. I didn't say it should be open borders I meant to be more human as in 20century not cruel like in 1600 ..


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

Gby said:


> I know everything you know because I'm born and educated in Europe . All humans have been slaughtering each other sice they know each other there are not true American exempt the native humans of the Land ..let's assume your family came early claim their land without being theirs then now another's humans came and claim are theirs to &#128512;&#128512;&#128512;. For your memory the flow of immigrants and slave had been made this country great as is .. I'm pretty sure not to long ago your ancestors come from somewhere to and contributed to development of this country .. I didn't say it should be open borders I meant to be more human as in 20century not cruel like in 1600 ..


So I guess then that the entire earth should go back to the borders that existed in the 1600's. I guess none of the Europeans live in lands that are legally theirs either.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Oogie Pringle said:


> So I guess then that the entire earth should go back to the borders that existed in the 1600's.


well, this thread certainly went sideways. Let me add to it: exactly what is your opinion on how things should be?

I think a sock is missing.


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

SHalester said:


> well, this thread certainly went sideways. Let me add to it: exactly what is your opinion on how things should be?
> 
> I think a sock is missing.


Things should be the way our constitution says they should be, not the way useless "woke" people's feelings think they should be.


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

Gby said:


> 15 years from now we will be close where we are now .. lithium are limited supply


Umm Lithium wont even be used in 15 years ...


Lissetti said:


> He's saying he recognizes America is a nation created of immigrants. Trump's own Scottish/German ancestors were immigrants.
> 
> I also see Biden saying he's going to heavily scrutinize border screening. I don't see him saying sneak in by any means necessary.


Exactly . Joe welcomes immigrants but is also conservative enough to make sure everyone goes through the process.

And MORAL enough to allow those "
illegal" immigrants that have lived here, worked, paid taxes, gone to school, etc.. an OPPORTUNITY to Stay via DACA..

The right wanted to send even KIDS ...15 years old , lived here their entire lives. United States IS Home..it's the only home they have ever known ...back to Mexico. Just mean and Immoral ... certainly not Christian


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

Gby said:


> I know everything you know because I'm born and educated in Europe . All humans have been slaughtering each other sice they know each other there are not true American exempt the native humans of the Land ..let's assume your family came early claim their land without being theirs then now another's humans came and claim are theirs to &#128512;&#128512;&#128512;. For your memory the flow of immigrants and slave had been made this country great as is .. I'm pretty sure not to long ago your ancestors come from somewhere to and contributed to development of this country .. I didn't say it should be open borders I meant to be more human as in 20century not cruel like in 1600 ..


And by the way - about 1/3 of our lands (lower 48) was purchased from France, Spain, and Great Britain. Alaska was purchased from Russia.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Oogie Pringle said:


> Things should be the way our constitution says they should be


you just moved the goal posts without answering. How should legal immigration be handled in YOUR opinion.


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

dauction said:


> Umm Lithium wont even be used in 15 years ...
> 
> Exactly . Joe welcomes immigrants but is also conservative enough to make sure everyone goes through the process.
> 
> ...


SOME of the right - not all. There is nothing we can do about those that are already here. If they abide by our laws they should stay. If they don't, they should be locked up. Any adult that has entered illegally and commits a violent crime needs to be deported. If they re-enter, jail for life. Sanctuary cities that don't comply with ICE needs to lose federal funding. People who are injured/killed by a violent illegal should be able to sue whatever judge or official allowed it. MOST people, including illegals, are GOOD people. But Dems want to protect all of them, even the bad ones. It would be fair if illegals only murdered people who support open borders and sanctuary cities.



Gby said:


> Trump got wrong on immigration . He treated those immigrants like in Auschwitz. He ripped off the child's from their mother arm in 20 century kind of creepy criminal minds could do something like this when they could find little more human way of theatment . US it is fresh country build by immigrants . Who come legally or illegally .. many are not admit this matter but the truth can not be hide
> 
> 
> You take immigrants because the country are still under development and the land surface it hold triple of existing population .. without immigrants this land it was like wast Land still with native Americans living under tent camp


So I see you are not an "American". You are a globalist that doesn't believe in borders. But you lock your door at night. So you do believe in borders. You are a hypocrite.



SHalester said:


> you just moved the goal posts without answering. How should legal immigration be handled in YOUR opinion.


There is nothing we can do about those that are already here. If they abide by our laws they should stay. If they don't, they should be locked up. Any adult that has entered illegally and commits a violent crime needs to be deported. If they re-enter, jail for life. Sanctuary cities that don't comply with ICE needs to lose federal funding. People who are injured/killed by a violent illegal should be able to sue whatever judge or official allowed it. MOST people, including illegals, are GOOD people. But Dems want to protect all of them, even the bad ones. It would be fair if illegals only murdered people who support open borders and sanctuary cities.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Gby said:


> Biden not that bad but he choice the wrong vice president they may push US to become like India . .. back to slavery


My lord that is an obnoxious observation.


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## Grumpy Old Man (Jul 7, 2018)

dauction said:


> Umm Lithium wont even be used in 15 years ...
> 
> Exactly . Joe welcomes immigrants but is also conservative enough to make sure everyone goes through the process.
> 
> ...


Are you sure of your facts here?
And not just spouting anti-Trump hatred, even after he's gone?


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## Grumpy Old Man (Jul 7, 2018)

dauction said:


> Umm Lithium wont even be used in 15 years ...


On what premise do you base that on?


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The last 5 years of battery research literature strongly indicate a move away from lithium ...


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

Grumpy Old Man said:


> On what premise do you base that on?


My personal view is that aluminum-air batteries will eventually win out.






The "problem" is that while you can get 1000-1500 miles range..you had to stop and add water every few hundred miles. They have fixed that and water no longer need. The other problem is that the early batteries were not chargeable..you could only use the batteries as a range extender.

China (figures) is the first to sort out the rechargeable issue










There is also Garphane being used

the next generation though will be Lithium SSD ...they will use lithium but those are coming to production in 5 years

Then the next generation within 15 years will be the far less expensive Aluminum IMO

aluminum is everywhere and inexpensive so that is what they will push and gravitate for


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

OC-Moe said:


> https://apnews.com/article/climate-...gavin-newsom-a00a0d4e495fbc2f7714a7f3228ec6fb
> View attachment 511190


We're getting excited over a ban on oil burning vehicles in California in 15 years? 
I heard similar concerns, no let me take that back, desperate Californians bemoaning the fact that all polluting old clunkers and black smoke spewing commercial semi-trucks off the road by a certain date.

Well it happened, and those vehicles were taken off our Californian roads and highways. The air is much cleaner and the old jokes about Los Angeles air that you can't trust if you can't see it are gone.

The 2035 law is not that drastic. It simply means that after that date, California will not allow gas burning vehicles to be sold in our state. It does not say your car is being taken away, it mean that you cannot buy a new gas guzzler. Gasoline will continue to be sold. In fifteen years, the technology in E vehicles, solar and other clean sources of energy will be under a new landscape.

As for the clunkers and dirty diesel trucks that had to leave California, they all were sold to Arizona, Nevada, and Texas. Win Win&#8230;..they got under market clunkers and California got clean air.


















tohunt4me said:


> " ECO FASCISTS " !
> 
> ITS ALL BEEN DONE BEFORE.
> 
> ...


Yeah.....and let's resist wearing mask. It's a fraud and make up. 
Do I see the same fear mongering again?


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## OC-Moe (Oct 6, 2018)

Big Lou said:


> We're getting excited over a ban on oil burning vehicles in California in 15 years?
> I heard similar concerns, no let me take that back, desperate Californians bemoaning the fact that all polluting old clunkers and black smoke spewing commercial semi-trucks off the road by a certain date.
> 
> Well it happened, and those vehicles were taken off our Californian roads and highways. The air is much cleaner and the old jokes about Los Angeles air that you can't trust if you can't see it are gone.
> ...


it's yet another Newsom overreach


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Big Lou said:


> We're getting excited over a ban on oil burning vehicles in California in 15 years?
> I heard similar concerns, no let me take that back, desperate Californians bemoaning the fact that all polluting old clunkers and black smoke spewing commercial semi-trucks off the road by a certain date.
> 
> Well it happened, and those vehicles were taken off our Californian roads and highways. The air is much cleaner and the old jokes about Los Angeles air that you can't trust if you can't see it are gone.
> ...


May you have clean air when the earthquake detaches California .


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

tohunt4me said:


> May you have clean air when the earthquake detaches California .


At the rate things are going, NY will have as many electoral votes as Rhode Island. California will have a few more - probably the same as Maryland. These states are killing themselves, and their demise makes me happy.


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

tohunt4me said:


> May you have clean air when the earthquake detaches California .


And Phoenix Beach and coastline will be the new holiday hot spot.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Big Lou said:


> And Phoenix Beach and coastline will be the new holiday hot spot.


Electric Cars.
Will ESPECIALLY NOT BE FEASIBLE in California !









Gasoline will be cheaper.

And will not be " shut off" in dry weather !


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## Oogie Pringle (Nov 7, 2020)

tohunt4me said:


> Electric Cars.
> Will ESPECIALLY NOT BE FEASIBLE in California !
> View attachment 527181
> 
> ...


Gasoline is cheap right now because for the first time in our history we are net-exporters of energy. Biden and his team of America hating socialists will change that.


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

tohunt4me said:


> Electric Cars.
> Will ESPECIALLY NOT BE FEASIBLE in California !
> View attachment 527181
> 
> ...


From So.Cal. it's Hwy 10 east and if you start in the morning, you can have lunch in Quartzite Ca., the Arizona border then continue to paradise. When you get to Buckeye, stop at Love's truck stop for a snack then head for the promise land. The land of ex-felon, Joseph Michael Arpaio the toughest Tea Party lawman in Arizona. 
If you start now, you can get choice property along the future coastline and live in the land of cheap gas and , well,....cheap gas.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> *California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles*
> 
> View attachment 510057
> 
> ...


And now THIS !!!

Tesla hits power pole at 100 m.p.h. & batteries fly EVERYWHERE !

One started a home fire by landing in a bed and IGNITING THE SHEETS !
Another battery landed in someones lap sitting in their living room.
Authorities came out & attempted to RECOVER ALL OF THE DANGEROUS BATTERIES !
but could not.
People are warned batteries are dangerous to property, people, animals, release toxic fumes & can remain Hot for 24 hours !























One Tesla
Causes Fire & Flooding all at once !

The BATTERIES ARE A DANGER TO LIFE & THE EARTH ITSELF !

The D r iver fled on foot !
So . . . amazing car that allows idiot driver to flee after wrecking at 100 m.p.h. !

HORRIBLE BATTERIES !

P.S.- this happened in OREGON.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

tohunt4me said:


> HORRIBLE BATTERIES !


omg. We should sue.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> *California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles*
> 
> View attachment 510057
> 
> ...


California leads in progressive thinking and legislation.

But they'll need some serious consideration and investment in charging solutions before they can pull the plug on gasoline engines.

So many people with cars live in apartments, for example. Where will they plug in at night?


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

would it be too late to ask what plug you're talking about considering it's a gasoline vehicle


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## Who is John Galt? (Sep 28, 2016)

Lissetti said:


> California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles


To have it now incorporated in the seal, the Governor must be damn proud to be driving ÜberXL.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

UberBeemer said:


> So many people with cars live in apartments, for example. Where will they plug in at night?


Let them charge at work. Oh, they're working from home now or they got laid off? Let them walk.


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## Launchpad McQuack (Jan 8, 2019)

W00dbutcher said:


> would it be too late to ask what plug you're talking about considering it's a gasoline vehicle


The spark plug(s)?


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> Let them charge at work. Oh, they're working from home now or they got laid off? Let them walk.


I thought we were talking about a ride service? Hard to charge your tesla with pax in back trying to make a plane.


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## guano (Aug 27, 2020)

Lissetti said:


> *California is ready to pull the plug on gas vehicles*
> 
> View attachment 510057
> 
> ...


someone should pull the plug on california....


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

guano said:


> someone should pull the plug on california....


so if Calif becomes it's own country that means we take all of the Fed cheese we send as we are a net 'giver' of tax. That means the states that are net 'takers' won't get any. Plus we take our encomy and give a middle finger to y'all.

OK, I'm good with that, cya. 

Nose. Face. Just saying.


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## OC-Moe (Oct 6, 2018)

SHalester said:


> so if Calif becomes it's own country that means we take all of the Fed cheese we send as we are a net 'giver' of tax. That means the states that are net 'takers' won't get any. Plus we take our encomy and give a middle finger to y'all.
> 
> OK, I'm good with that, cya.
> 
> Nose. Face. Just saying.


Mexico called, they have some land issues hahahaha


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## guano (Aug 27, 2020)

SHalester said:


> so if Calif becomes it's own country that means we take all of the Fed cheese we send as we are a net 'giver' of tax. That means the states that are net 'takers' won't get any. Plus we take our encomy and give a middle finger to y'all.
> 
> OK, I'm good with that,


that statement proves how stupid most of you Californians are... if you would become your own country you would have nothing to do with the US government... but most of us would love it...matter of fact if you just detached and sink that would be even better


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

guano said:


> if you would become your own country you would have nothing to do with the US government..


Hmm... I think that was the point he was making. &#129488;


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## guano (Aug 27, 2020)

Older Chauffeur said:


> Hmm... I think that was the point he was





Older Chauffeur said:


> Hmm... I think that was the point he was making. &#129488;


nah ...he said they would take the fed money


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

guano said:


> that statement proves how stupid most of you Californians are


ha! my stmt was an example of 'other' state residents always whining about Calif.

Nose. Face. Figure it out.

next.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

guano said:


> nah ...he said they would take the fed money


Read it again. He means CA would be KEEPING the contributions it pays into to "FED cheese" currently enjoyed by residents of some other states. CA pays more into the federal government than it receives.


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## guano (Aug 27, 2020)

Older Chauffeur said:


> Read it again. He means CA would be KEEPING the contributions it pays into to "FED cheese" currently enjoyed by residents of some other states. CA pays more into the federal government than it receives.


well ...than I just stick to the part "detached and sink"


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

guano said:


> that statement proves how stupid most of you Californians are... if you would become your own country you would have nothing to do with the US government... but most of us would love it...matter of fact if you just detached and sink that would be even better


A FLORIDA MAN calling someone from California stupid. Let that soak in...


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

Longer time period , winner will be Toyota ... sleeping heavyweight....


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