# HELP ME CREATE CHANGE . It’s show time.



## Uber315 (Apr 11, 2016)

I need everyone help in creating the largest possible list of reason that you all feel that we are misclassified as Independant contractors . In other words what does Uber do that makes you feel like an employee . Now if you feel like you are an independent contractor I would love to hear why you feel that way. I must say some are independent contractors but there are some that are misclassified .


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## Umdriving (Jul 11, 2018)

We are employees. A contractor, would know, what a job pays and the expectations of said job, before each endeavour. We dont know what we are getting paid, or where we are going, before we embark on each trip. 

Like a salaried or hourly employee. The boss tells you where to go each day, and you go.

We should know where we are going, and what each job pays before hand. Like any other contractor.


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## Uber315 (Apr 11, 2016)

Umdriving said:


> We are employees. A contractor, would know, what a job pays and the expectations of said job, before each endeavour. We dont know what we are getting paid, or where we are going, before we embark on each trip.
> 
> Like a salaried or hourly employee. The boss tells you where to go each day, and you go.
> 
> We should know where we are going, and what each job pays before hand. Like any other contractor.


You mean kind of like grub hub and doordash and lyft and postmates .


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## Umdriving (Jul 11, 2018)

Uber315 said:


> You mean kind of like grub hub and doordash and lyft and postmates .


Never used any of those, but the concept is really basic. How much does it pay, what do i need to do...tap to agree.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

I keep saying it, and it doesn't seem to be getting through...

*BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!!!*

Employees work where and when the boss says to, and they do everything the boss tells them to within the scope of their duties.

No picking your shift, or how long it would last. No refusing pings or a pax that raises the hairs on the back of your neck. Any tips received in app could be pooled with other driver's in the same market for the same shift and distributed evenly across the board.

Think.


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## Uber315 (Apr 11, 2016)

SuzeCB said:


> I keep saying it, and it doesn't seem to be getting through...
> 
> *BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!!!*
> 
> ...


There are different situations in different states Uber runs this different in every state . It is not a uniform policy. I am not scared of work . You think you make your own shift . The algorithms control everything. They have people working where they need them at all times and it's not by coincidence. If drivers are going to be independent contractors then treat them as such . The problem is they can't becuade they would not have the workforce they need. That's why they have to have control over the drivers earnings . That's why they rip drivers off.

Think


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Uber315 said:


> There are different situations in different states Uber runs this different in every state . It is not a uniform policy. I am not scared of work . You think you make your own shift . The algorithms control everything. They have people working where they need them at all times and it's not by coincidence. If drivers are going to be independent contractors then treat them as such . The problem is they can't becuade they would not have the workforce they need. That's why they have to have control over the drivers earnings . That's why they rip drivers off.
> 
> Think


I didn't think I made my own shift. I know I did. I worked when I felt like it, and didn't when I didn't. When I needed to take time off to take care of my son or my son, I did so without having to check in with someone. If I needed an hour off I took it. I also went anywhere in my state where I wanted to to work. I avoided picking up and neighborhoods that I didn't want to pick up in. I did not have to accept everything in order to be considered consistently working so that I could make minimum wage. These are all the things that have to be considered before you ask for employment versus independent contractor status.


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## flyntflossy10 (Jun 2, 2017)

I think every night we all know what we're getting into. We all take the risks of driving. Knowing full well what could happen. SuzeCB is right. Be careful what you ask for. Could you imagine being scheduled for a completely dead part of the night? I mean somebody has to be logged on. What about inclement weather, but still be required to work? Even if our cars can't handle snow or storms?

For now, I'll stick to taking a chance on a ping versus the alternative. I will not drive for Uber if I'm an employee.


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## Uber315 (Apr 11, 2016)

SuzeCB said:


> I didn't think I made my own shift. I know I did. I worked when I felt like it, and didn't when I didn't. When I needed to take time off to take care of my son or my son, I did so without having to check in with someone. If I needed an hour off I took it. I also went anywhere in my state where I wanted to to work. I avoided picking up and neighborhoods that I didn't want to pick up in. I did not have to accept everything in order to be considered consistently working so that I could make minimum wage. These are all the things that have to be considered before you ask for employment versus independent contractor status.


Fair enough but as I said in the original post some are employees and some are IC . Every driver has a different experience with the Uber platform . Also I don't know how they operate and manipulate things in NJ . I just know south Florida . That's why I'm trying to here things from different places . I want people to speak up . No be quieted . I can tell NJ is a blue state


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Umdriving said:


> We are employees. A contractor, would know, what a job pays and the expectations of said job, before each endeavour. We dont know what we are getting paid, or where we are going, before we embark on each trip.


While what you say is technically true for a lot of contractors, I'm not sure how much it works like that practically.

I know someone who had their own business for a few years. Yes, they were informed of the job details beforehand, and could choose to accept it or not. However, an important part of drumming up business was customer recommendation. Also, the customers who needed smaller/less profitable jobs, were often the same ones who came back needing bigger ones. So practically speaking, they couldn't afford to exercise that privilege so much, and still expect many customers. I don't know how much this is the norm with similar gigs, but I imagine it is.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

I think there's some confusion...

Uber classifies you as contractors. And maybe someone can clarify better for me but the way I see it...
----
Behavioral Control: A worker is an employee when the business has the right to direct and control the work performed by the worker, even if that right is not exercised. Behavioral control categories are:


Type of instructions given, such as when and where to work, what tools to use or where to purchase supplies and services. Receiving the types of instructions in these examples may indicate a worker is an employee.
Degree of instruction, more detailed instructions may indicate that the worker is an employee. Less detailed instructions reflects less control, indicating that the worker is more likely an independent contractor.
Evaluation systems to measure the details of how the work is done points to an employee. Evaluation systems measuring just the end result point to either an independent contractor or an employee. *Does being rated by the passenger...and the potential to be kicked off the app aka "fired" if one's rating gets too low count? Does the helpful "emails" on how to get "5 stars" as an driver count as training?*
Training a worker on how to do the job -- or periodic or on-going training about procedures and methods -- is strong evidence that the worker is an employee. Independent contractors ordinarily use their own methods
-----

See. For all intents and purposes Uber wants the relationship to be defined as contractor. They don't want the liabilities of having employees.

But they also expect you to maintain a certain standard. There's a rating system. There's a reporting system. Uber can terminate their "contract" with you if you don't adhere to the image Uber wants to present.

Someone clarify, what happens if you cancel too many times? If you have too many emails about your cancelation rate? Or nonacceptance rate? What if you kept getting pings that were 20+ minutes away and you just refuse to go that far? Technically you can "pick" your route as a contractor...but wait, you don't even know the full details of the fare until you accept the ping-so if it's not a fare you want, you'll have to cancel.

Do you still need to take courses if you fall below 4.6? Do you still get deactivated based on performance that is judged by passengers' ratings?

If at the heart of it, Uber says it's a contractor type of relationship-all they should care about is that you have a car that passes inspection (so it's basically safe) and not care about the year/make/model.

They should not care that your car isn't the cleanest. There shouldn't be a way for the rider to rate you based on that, or to report you for "car quality" "conversation" etc. Passengers are _paying_ for a seat in a car that is going to pick them up at the location they put and drop them off at the location they choose. That's it. No aux cord, charging cord, water, mint, etc...

Because at the heart of it, Uber is saying they provide an app to connect you to a passenger and a passenger to you.

They're not in the business of transportation.

They're not your employer. Yet they'll give you feedback based on your trips. They'll give you evaluations based on the trips and heck, now they're giving the top 2% a reward for job well done...

It's such a gray area. On one hand I can see how some see it as contractor relationship...on the other hand, I see Uber exerting some control over how Uber drivers get their fares. It's not as simple as hey, there's Jane and she wants to go from 103 main to 901 Hudson. It's hey, drive around and we'll send you a ping. You won't know the exact assignment. You're just going to have to take it and do it or take it and cancel, or if you have esp just let the ping expire.

If you take it and cancel, we're not going to incentivize that. So we're not going to send you as many pings. If you cancel too many times. We're going to put you on a time out.


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## Uber315 (Apr 11, 2016)

sellkatsell44 said:


> I think there's some confusion...
> 
> Uber classifies you as contractors. And maybe someone can clarify better for me but the way I see it...
> ----
> ...


Thanks so much . Very well spoken !


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Umdriving said:


> We are employees.


You really filled out one of these for Uber?









Did you claim exempt on line 7?



sellkatsell44 said:


> I think there's some confusion...
> 
> Uber classifies you as contractors. And maybe someone can clarify better for me but the way I see it...
> ----
> ...


This was a very informative post. Have you ever seen gov't contracts or contracts for work on Tribal land. Many contracts have specific requirements of times allowed to work, a required percentage of ethnic workers on the job site at all times, apparel that is to be worn, cleanliness of workplace, both private and public inspections of work throughout the course of the contract, wage requirements for your employees (prevailing wage), specific methods of applications.

So, even though contractors are self employed there are specified ways that are required when performing contract work.


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## uberinatltrafficsux (Apr 21, 2018)

sellkatsell44 said:


> I think there's some confusion...
> 
> Uber classifies you as contractors. And maybe someone can clarify better for me but the way I see it...
> ----
> ...


This made me feel tingly. Smart women are awesome.


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

uberinatltrafficsux said:


> This made me feel tingly. Smart women are awesome.


Even better when they're hot


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

There is already a model for comparison, Taxi Driver and Limo Driver. Go talk to some ex Taxi/Limo Drivers and see how that worked out for them. If you think that is for you then by all means stop "Partnering" with Uber/Lyft and go get a job as a Taxi/Limo Driver so you can be an employee. That might sincerely be best for some people. We all have different needs and reasons for why we do this. For me, I am an Independent Contractor and whats most important is that I have the ability to make my own hours. Wouldn't do this as an employee.


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## 1.5xorbust (Nov 22, 2017)

As an employee you lose all flexibility as to when to drive which is the one big incentive.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

sellkatsell44 said:


> I think there's some confusion...
> 
> Uber classifies you as contractors. And maybe someone can clarify better for me but the way I see it...
> ----
> ...


The questions that you raised here are ones have been raised repeatedly. They tend to make it sound like the average independent contractor it doesn't get all of these things from the contractor that it doesn't get all of these things from the general contractor that they work for. But they do. The general contractor outlines with the customer what the job is expected to be. If an electrician doesn't show up when they say they're going to, and they do it repeatedly, the general contractor will no longer do business with that electrician. If the general contractor tells an electrician that an outlet needs to be in a particular place, it's not the electricians choice to put it on the other side of the room or in a different room. If a general contractor gets too many complaints that an electrician was loud and obnoxious and dirty and stinky, the general contractor is not going to continue to do business with them because otherwise he's not going to get as much work as he could otherwise. If an electrician just flat-out turns down too much work that a general contractor asks him to do, the contractor will take him off of his list of electricians to use. If a customer complains that an electrician showed up on the job drunk, that electrician is going to be removed from the job as soon as the complaint is made. Whether or not that electrician is giving any other jobs may well depend on whether this is the first complaint or not. More than one complaint of this sort, in most jobs, does provide some support to the idea that they're all true. The difference in Uber's case is that they have, literally, put a bounty on driver heads by offering a $25 credit if the complaint results in the driver being deactivated permanently. That poses a problem.

Then there is the question of whether the subcontractor get all of the information about the job up front, before accepting or refusing it. For that, you have to take into consideration what the particular industry's standard is. I don't know about in your Market, but in New Jersey, and a New York, the standard is that the driver does not know. They don't find out until the passenger is in the car and gives them the destination, and they then call back into dispatch and confirm the destination with them, because it affects the price if it gets changed.

From the, admittedly, little research that I have done, laws against destination discrimination our Inn place in quite a few major city areas. This would include refusing to take someone because the ride is too short, unprofitable within the normal stated rates, or because you don't want to go to a particular neighborhood or municipality. Not giving the driver the destination is how the companies, weather Taxi or TNC, help present destination discrimination. Yes, of course it helps their bottom line most of the time. TNCs more than taxis. But it is widespread enough to be considered an industry standard, and as such, not proof of employee over independent contractor status.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

I work the airport and we Uber/lyft drivers share an air conditioned building with bathrooms, a tv and vending machines with the taxi drivers

It’s not hard to tell the difference between us and them. The taxi drivers are all wearing white shirts, ties and black pants and black shoes. I’m wearing jeans and a tee shirt, they drive company owned cars and I own my car. They are here from the first incoming flight of the day until the last; every other day. I come and go as I please. They buy gas and split fares 50/50. I pay all my own expenses and my split with Uber is about 65/35

They are employees and I’m an independent businessman. And that’s the way I want to keep it


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## Rockocubs (Jul 31, 2017)

I set my own hours and receive pay based on agreed upon rates. I consider myself and independent contractor.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> You really filled out one of these for Uber?
> View attachment 248200
> 
> 
> ...


There's a difference between rewarding a contract for work and being a contractor though I'll admit I'm unfamiliar with that.



SuzeCB said:


> The questions that you raised here are ones have been raised repeatedly. They tend to make it sound like the average independent contractor it doesn't get all of these things from the contractor that it doesn't get all of these things from the general contractor that they work for. But they do. The general contractor outlines with the customer what the job is expected to be. If an electrician doesn't show up when they say they're going to, and they do it repeatedly, the general contractor will no longer do business with that electrician. If the general contractor tells an electrician that an outlet needs to be in a particular place, it's not the electricians choice to put it on the other side of the room or in a different room. If a general contractor gets too many complaints that an electrician was loud and obnoxious and dirty and stinky, the general contractor is not going to continue to do business with them because otherwise he's not going to get as much work as he could otherwise. If an electrician just flat-out turns down too much work that a general contractor asks him to do, the contractor will take him off of his list of electricians to use. If a customer complains that an electrician showed up on the job drunk, that electrician is going to be removed from the job as soon as the complaint is made. Whether or not that electrician is giving any other jobs may well depend on whether this is the first complaint or not. More than one complaint of this sort, in most jobs, does provide some support to the idea that they're all true. The difference in Uber's case is that they have, literally, put a bounty on driver heads by offering a $25 credit if the complaint results in the driver being deactivated permanently. That poses a problem.
> 
> Then there is the question of whether the subcontractor get all of the information about the job up front, before accepting or refusing it. For that, you have to take into consideration what the particular industry's standard is. I don't know about in your Market, but in New Jersey, and a New York, the standard is that the driver does not know. They don't find out until the passenger is in the car and gives them the destination, and they then call back into dispatch and confirm the destination with them, because it affects the price if it gets changed.
> 
> From the, admittedly, little research that I have done, laws against destination discrimination our Inn place in quite a few major city areas. This would include refusing to take someone because the ride is too short, unprofitable within the normal stated rates, or because you don't want to go to a particular neighborhood or municipality. Not giving the driver the destination is how the companies, weather Taxi or TNC, help present destination discrimination. Yes, of course it helps their bottom line most of the time. TNCs more than taxis. But it is widespread enough to be considered an industry standard, and as such, not proof of employee over independent contractor status.


But the contractor knows where they're going for the work. They can refuse to go to that site because they know the client is unreasonable. Heck, I just sat down with a rep who made millions working for primamerica but he _stank _so much I literally had to hold my breathe being across the table from him. My desk is pretty wide. But My point remains so I won't rehash what I wrote up there.

I'm an employee but my hours are so flexible you wouldn't believe it. This week I've gone in around 8, 830, 9 and last week it was like that with a 10am thrown in because I had a passport appointment in the morning.

I've left at 2:30pm, 3pm, 5pm, 530pm and 7pm just because of other appointments (dental, doctor, etc).

Heck, I'm choosing to type this in my bed rather than get up and continue getting ready to work because I can push back the time.

But I get paid hourly, overtime, benefits, etc.

Uber does cross the gray line into behavior that would make one feel like an employee imho, but they also provide ways to argue drivers are contractors-they have to, to keep up appearances.


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## 1.5xorbust (Nov 22, 2017)

More than half of everything Uber does is in a gray (grey for some of you) area.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

I just want to add I don't think that Uber drivers should be employees but I do think that Uber shouldn't have the stupid 1-5 star system even though I'm sitting near 5. I think it should be thumbs up or thumbs down. They should allow either drivers or riders to never be matched with the other if they do use thumbs down and riders should be aware of this.

While drivers aren't matched again with riders that thumb down them; the drivers shouldn't be kicked out because of this.

There would still be a way to complain if the driver was being unsafe aka driving drunk but it's not going to lead to people thinking they can get a free fare if they make up lies. The driver would have a chance to respond.

Etc etc. cancelation rate, acceptance rate, etc.

The pay is a whole 'nother dragon.



oldfart said:


> I work the airport and we Uber/lyft drivers share an air conditioned building with bathrooms, a tv and vending machines with the taxi drivers
> 
> It's not hard to tell the difference between us and them. The taxi drivers are all wearing white shirts, ties and black pants and black shoes. I'm wearing jeans and a tee shirt, they drive company owned cars and I own my car. They are here from the first incoming flight of the day until the last; every other day. I come and go as I please. They buy gas and split fares 50/50. I pay all my own expenses and my split with Uber is about 65/35
> 
> They are employees and I'm an independent businessman. And that's the way I want to keep it


Actually taxi drivers can be independent contractors: this is a good read (even talks about lawsuits against Uber re:classification, and one that was won, disputed, settled and dismissed without prejudice)

Also a snip from that article I linked:


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## Merc7186 (Jul 8, 2017)

Employees get paid time off, vacation, health benefits, etc.


As INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS, while we do not know the sum of what a fare may pay us ahead of time, we also have the freedom to pick and choose our fares too. Does an employee get to choose their work???

Also, our so called employer does not tax out for taxes, FICA, Social Security, etc. Anyone who feels like they are an employee had probably never had a real job before.


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## Uber315 (Apr 11, 2016)

Keep it going .


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## 404NofFound (Jun 13, 2018)

A home builder could contact an electrician and tell him to come to a location 20 minutes away. If they wanted, they could withhold information about what they need from him. They could set up an app to avoid the conversation. When he gets there he could find out that it was a ten minute job. They could give him $6.39 for that and an extra 2 dollars. in cash if they liked his work. If his work is perfect he still might not get the tip and could be 1 starred. Afterwards, he can sit in his truck and wait for another ping to other job sites or drive home. Most of his jobs do not exceed 30 minutes. He gets alot of five and ten minute jobs. He could calculate his expenses and time to determine how much he made per hour. Some people predict a "gig" economy could happen.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

404NofFound said:


> A home builder could contact an electrician and tell him to come to a location 20 minutes away. If they wanted, they could withhold information about what they need from him. They could set up an app to avoid the conversation. When he gets there he could find out that it was a ten minute job. They could give him $6.39 for that and an extra 2 dollars. in cash if they liked his work. If his work is perfect he still might not get the tip and could be 1 starred. Afterwards, he can sit in his truck and wait for another ping to other job sites or drive home. Most of his jobs do not exceed 30 minutes. He gets alot of five and ten minute jobs. He could calculate his expenses and time to determine how much he made per hour. Some people predict a "gig" economy could happen.


You're talking about how having Uber like companies can affect how other people do contracting work because this is not how traditional contractors do it. Even now the last contractor we had, we would call and let them know what's going on, what we need done and send info ahead of time. They can say they'll work on it. Or no they won't. Or refer me to someone else.

They come when it's convenient for them and work when they want.

if you want an app for contract work take a look at thumbtack.


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## 404NofFound (Jun 13, 2018)

Merc7186 said:


> Employees get paid time off, vacation, health benefits, etc.
> 
> As INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS, while we do not know the sum of what a fare may pay us ahead of time, we also have the freedom to pick and choose our fares too. Does an employee get to choose their work???
> 
> Also, our so called employer does not tax out for taxes, FICA, Social Security, etc. Anyone who feels like they are an employee had probably never had a real job before.


To choose your fares you would have to call the pax. Doesn't Uber frown upon that?


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

I definitely would not want to be an employee.


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## 404NofFound (Jun 13, 2018)

steveK2016 said:


> I definitely would not want to be an employee.


Could pay and benefits convince you otherwise?


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## RynoHawk (Mar 15, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> I'm an employee but my hours are so flexible you wouldn't believe it. This week I've gone in around 8, 830, 9 and last week it was like that with a 10am thrown in because I had a passport appointment in the morning.
> 
> I've left at 2:30pm, 3pm, 5pm, 530pm and 7pm just because of other appointments (dental, doctor, etc).
> 
> ...


Your situation is a rarity to most hourly paid employees. Most must punch a clock and work there designated times and cannot come in late or leave early without prior approval. However, that is also a prime example of how not every business relationship, be it hourly employee, IC, etc. is not set in stone to one strict set of parameters that determines their classification.

To answer the OP question, I feel that we are ICs. While Kat's situation as an employee offers her some flexibility not usual for many employees, I'm sure she is still expected to come in everyday and complete her work assignments. She likely cannot just decide to not go to work for days or weeks at a time and then pick up right where she left off.

If I don't feel like driving, whether I'm sick, or I want to do something else, or whatever, I don't drive. I don't have to let Uber know "hey I'm not driving today!" If I am driving and get POed because all of the riders are stupid on a given day then I can just go offline and go home. At my job, if I have a bad day, I'm expected to suck it up and carry on until my scheduled time to go home. If I'm too sick to work, I'm required to call in and let them know. If I'm absent or late too many times, I am subject to disciplinary action.

There are plenty of gripes with Uber, but one of the things that make it worthwhile is the ability to do it when I want and not to when I don't.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

404NofFound said:


> Could pay and benefits convince you otherwise?


Car provided, company card for gas, 25/HR guaranteed with 3 week paid vacation, 30 hours minimum a week after 5pm m-f or any time sat and Sunday, health vision and dental.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

404NofFound said:


> Could pay and benefits convince you otherwise?


I was a commissioned salesperson for a company and an employee. I got paid based on the business I did. Just like Uber. There were benefits like health care, but I paid for them

Do you think just becoming an employee will increase your pay? Don't bet on it



sellkatsell44 said:


> You're talking about how having Uber like companies can affect how other people do contracting work because this is not how traditional contractors do it. Even now the last contractor we had, we would call and let them know what's going on, what we need done and send info ahead of time. They can say they'll work on it. Or no they won't. Or refer me to someone else.
> 
> They come when it's convenient for them and work when they want.
> 
> if you want an app for contract work take a look at thumbtack.


So with that house you are building. It's ok if the Sheetrock contractor shows up before the plumber.

Don't be silly all contracts have terms and conditions. And ours says we will be connected with folks that need rides. That we are free to cancel after accepting said ride, just don't cancel too many

Don't like those terms? Find your own customers


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

oldfart said:


> So with that house you are building. It's ok if the Sheetrock contractor shows up before the plumber.
> 
> Don't be silly all contracts have terms and conditions. And ours says we will be connected with folks that need rides. That we are free to cancel after accepting said ride*, just don't cancel too many*
> 
> Don't like those terms? Find your own customers


That shouldn't be the case. You should be able to cancel as much as you'd like if it means the assignment isn't what you'd want. I worked as a 1099 before. If I didn't want to do the task. I didn't do it. Someone else can pick it up if they want. If I don't want to do it and refuse, it doesn't accumulate towards any type of retribution.


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## jhearcht (Feb 16, 2018)

Uber315 said:


> I need everyone help in creating the largest possible list of reason that you all feel that we are misclassified as Independant contractors .


The "Employee" versus "Contractor" dichotomy is missing the point of the 21st century Gig economy. Those old 20th century terms don't fit the fluid reality of the Information Age. Uber drivers are employees in the sense that our work, and income, is dealt out by a central authority, which acts as a go-between with the customer. But we are contractors in that we are responsible for our own expenses, free to set our own working hours, and to decide how to carry-out our duties. So, we are not fully free, nor fully governed. Most of us seem to prize our independence, but would also appreciate some of the stability and security of a 9-to-5 job.

Apparently, we need a new word to describe the sharing relationship. Perhaps "Inter-dependent Contractors", or "semi-employees", or maybe just "Giggers". Giggle! 

"The gig economy is part of a shifting cultural and business environment that also includes the sharing economy, the gift economy and the barter economy." : 
https://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/gig-economy

PS__UBER, and other sharing companies, could provide one major benefit of employees working for "the man". Using the leverage of thousands of "sem-ployees" (to spread-out the risk), they could barter for lower-cost health & car insurance, in a manner similar to the AARP, with its millions of elderly subscribers. That way we could have our independence, and our synergy too.

"Synergy" : the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> That shouldn't be the case. You should be able to cancel as much as you'd like if it means the assignment isn't what you'd want. I worked as a 1099 before. If I didn't want to do the task. I didn't do it. Someone else can pick it up if they want. If I don't want to do it and refuse, it doesn't accumulate towards any type of retribution.


It dosent matter what you or I think "should be" all that matters is what is

As I see it I accept the way things are with Uber, or take my car and go home

The point is that if you keep refusing jobs the guy that's calling is gonna stop calling you


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## jcarrolld (Aug 25, 2016)

sellkatsell44 said:


> I think there's some confusion...
> 
> Uber classifies you as contractors. And maybe someone can clarify better for me but the way I see it...
> ----
> ...


I don't think you can define it in the traditional independent contractor or employee terms. It seems to be a new category unto itself. Call it what you want. Independent contractor or employee or combination of the two with some new name. Whatever it is I will always think it's better than being categorized as a traditional employee. No thanks. If that happens, I'm out.


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

I suspect that if ALL Uber drivers were made employees, a HUGH number of those who didn't quit right away would be fired because they didn't meet the employer's standards for employee performance.

My neighbor likes to complain about his yard guy a lot. I tell him, *"There is a reason *_WHY these guys cut grass for a living." _

The same is probably true of a lot of rideshare drivers, just based on some of the comments I've read on these boards!


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

oldfart said:


> It dosent matter what you or I think "should be" all that matters is what is
> 
> As I see it I accept the way things are with Uber, or take my car and go home
> 
> The point is that if you keep refusing jobs the guy that's calling is gonna stop calling you


Again, I'm not arguing that Uber should be an employer and drivers employees.

I don't think you understand. we are talking about multiple customers...from x area. You just don't want to work there. Don't want pings more than 20 mins out...that's your right. Uber shouldn't be able to step in and say, you canceled one too many times so nope...

It's not the same as a bunch of customers and as a contractor you decline all of them...of course they're not going to call you again, and you're not going to want to go there anyways.. but you still get calls from other potential customers.


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## Pulledclear (Oct 31, 2017)

*HELP ME CREATE CHANGE . It's show time.*

*



*


----------



## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

steveK2016 said:


> I definitely would not want to be an employee.


I think for many people here, the main attraction of Uber/Lyft is the flexibility. I think this applies to both part and full timers. For part timers, this makes it easier to schedule it around whatever else they do. As for full timers, well if they wanted to commit to certain hours, they'd already be looking for, or have found, a regular employee job.


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## Uber315 (Apr 11, 2016)

I’m excited at the steady responses. What I’m most excited about is at the main point I have in mind has not even been touched . There are several things Uber has done and continues to do in a different way that allows them to survive with us as independent Contractor . If they played fair and gave us true freedom the business model would not work because they would have many times where they would be short on cars .


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Again, I'm not arguing that Uber should be an employer and drivers employees.
> 
> I don't think you understand. we are talking about multiple customers...from x area. You just don't want to work there. Don't want pings more than 20 mins out...that's your right. Uber shouldn't be able to step in and say, you canceled one too many times so nope...
> 
> It's not the same as a bunch of customers and as a contractor you decline all of them...of course they're not going to call you again, and you're not going to want to go there anyways.. but you still get calls from other potential customers.


I understand that if I dont want customers from x area, I go somewhere else to work and I understand that if I want uber to send me customers for my ride service I gotta play by their rules.

And of course uber can step in and say you are violating the terms of the contract (if you are)


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## 1974toyota (Jan 5, 2018)

sellkatsell44 said:


> I think there's some confusion...
> 
> Uber classifies you as contractors. And maybe someone can clarify better for me but the way I see it...
> ----
> ...


We are employees, Uber exerts to much control over us to be labeled Indy's courts are starting to see this, the veil is coming off Uber's con job, i year at a time,JMO


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

1974toyota said:


> We are employees, Uber exerts to much control over us to be labeled Indy's courts are starting to see this, the veil is coming off Uber's con job, i year at a time,JMO


Not according to old fart...


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## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

Uber315 said:


> I'm excited at the steady responses. What I'm most excited about is at the main point I have in mind has not even been touched .


lol...


> There are several things Uber has done and continues to do in a different way that allows them to survive with us as independent Contractor . If they played fair and gave us true freedom the business model would not work because they would have many times where they would be short on cars .


Good point.

I think the best way for you to *actually do something* and start "Show time!" would be to picket the Uber Greenlight Hub in Wynwood.

They are great people and probably don't understand how wrong they are treating us. If you explain to them that they are being "UNFAIR!!!" I'm sure they'll jump to make meaningful change.

_[Pro Tip: The use of actual F-bombs on your picket signs is a sure attention-getter. If you're serious, don't be a sissy about the sign wording! You're welcome.]_

Thanks for *your actual work* on this great cause...as opposed to those who just post righteous nothings on the Internet!



sellkatsell44 said:


> Not according to old fart...


"OLD FART???"

Don't pay any attention to old farts!

The only people worth following are 20 year-olds -- *while they still know everything!*


----------



## Uber315 (Apr 11, 2016)

JimKE said:


> lol...Good point.
> 
> I think the best way for you to *actually do something* and start "Show time!" would be to picket the Uber Greenlight Hub in Wynwood.
> 
> ...


JimKe I know you are a wise retired officer . Long time I don't come on here . Noce to see you still around. Although it took you a lot longer than I expected to jump in. I must confess Green Light Hub is my last option when there is no hope left ! I have a feeling that you do know the response I'm waiting for someone to come up with . Honestly I don't think anyone will .


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Not according to old fart...


Iwhat I think isn't important. All that's important is what is and at least for now what is in most of the country is that we are independent contractors. Working with a pretty much one sided contract.

And I'm happy enough with it that I've seen my alarm for 3 am to get out and find an airport ride

I don't pay much attention to what should be or what could be. I don't worry about what I can't change.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

1974toyota said:


> We are employees, Uber exerts to much control over us to be labeled Indy's courts are starting to see this, the veil is coming off Uber's con job, i year at a time,JMO


Liberal courts in states where soon bottled water is going to have prop 65 warnings..


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

Toyota quotes my comment and seemingly agrees but likes oldfart’s comment...no one gets my not according to old fart comment... or bothered to read link I’m guessing. Just from this page.


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## Koolbreze (Feb 13, 2017)

Uber315 said:


> I need everyone help in creating the largest possible list of reason that you all feel that we are misclassified as Independant contractors . In other words what does Uber do that makes you feel like an employee . Now if you feel like you are an independent contractor I would love to hear why you feel that way. I must say some are independent contractors but there are some that are misclassified .


We are independent contractors.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

As others have said, if you don't like the deal, you'll be better off getting out and doing something else.

Nobody makes you stay in this line of work. If you want a better job, just go get one.

C


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

Sure there's the flexibility, but best part is performance based income. You perform better, you make more. You underperform, you won't survive. They don't cut off the flow of new drivers from driving, so its even more true.

You're going to get further by pretending to be a business man, than pretending to be a victim.


----------



## Umdriving (Jul 11, 2018)

SuzeCB said:


> I keep saying it, and it doesn't seem to be getting through...
> 
> *BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!!!*
> 
> ...


----------



## 1974toyota (Jan 5, 2018)

I'm wishing for a white christmas, & plenty of presents under the tree? jmo


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## the_king_of_$3.18 (Jul 28, 2018)

Uber drivers are more like on-site contract workers than independent contractors. They are paid for a result, true, but must still adhere to a specific process. I think the endgame is Uber moving to a Doordash/Amazon type of system with scheduled blocks. This process could be accelerated via lawsuits, except for the fact that arbitration makes that impossible - in the U.S. at least.


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## RDWRER (May 24, 2018)

They clearly treat us like employees. They claim to provide a platform for us to make money with their aid, but it’s obviously designed for them to make money off of our work. They hold all the information and hide it from us. Until they tell us where all the potential pax are and where our fellow Uber driving competitors are there’s no way I’ll even remotely see it otherwise. If I knew where there was a ton of drivers and very little requests I’d steer clear of that area, but as it is now I could be sitting right around the corner from 20 other drivers just twiddling my thumbs and not even know it. And that’s my point really, albeit I’m rambling . I don’t know a damn thing, which proves I’m not the one running the show. I may choose my hours, but I’m clearly not the boss...


----------



## JimKE (Oct 28, 2016)

oldfart said:


> Iwhat I think isn't important.


OP, don't believe this for a second -- and I hope you realize I was JOKING when I said it doesn't matter what "OLD FARTS" say.

Old farts like oldfart and I didn't get to be *this old* by being stoopid. You might want to listen...and especially to bits of "old fart" wisdom like this:



> *I don't pay much attention to what should be or what could be. I don't worry about what I can't change.*


There is a reason why oldfart and I understand stuff like this.

Uber on. Or don't.

But if you are determined to change the world -- focus on something *important*.

Not this.


----------



## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

Uber315 said:


> There are different situations in different states Uber runs this different in every state . It is not a uniform policy. I am not scared of work . You think you make your own shift . The algorithms control everything. They have people working where they need them at all times and it's not by coincidence. If drivers are going to be independent contractors then treat them as such . The problem is they can't becuade they would not have the workforce they need. That's why they have to have control over the drivers earnings . That's why they rip drivers off.
> 
> Think


Sure I make my own shifts, I drive where I want, and when I want. I like uber the way it is... when I don't like I just don't do it, simple. "Think" uber was never there to replace a real employment. Uber is here to better utilize your commute. So if you don't see favourable compensation simply stop driving until you do. No surge, no work. "Think", what will happen if you are classified as an employee? you will get min. wage, some lowest possible benefits if any. "Think" you will form an union and strike?, why not stop driving now then?



oldfart said:


> I work the airport and we Uber/lyft drivers share an air conditioned building with bathrooms, a tv and vending machines with the taxi drivers
> 
> It's not hard to tell the difference between us and them. The taxi drivers are all wearing white shirts, ties and black pants and black shoes. I'm wearing jeans and a tee shirt, they drive company owned cars and I own my car. They are here from the first incoming flight of the day until the last; every other day. I come and go as I please. They buy gas and split fares 50/50. I pay all my own expenses and my split with Uber is about 65/35
> 
> They are employees and I'm an independent businessman. And that's the way I want to keep it


Exactly, why don't these who want to be employees join the already established industry?!


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

dmoney155 said:


> why don't these who want to be employees join the already established industry?!


Because it's expensive to get a permit to drive a taxi, assuming you can even get one.

And as a result, you have to drive A LOT to pay for the darned thing.

Just sayin'. However, I'm not one of the people saying we need to change things. I wouldnt.

Besides, driving for Uber gets me out of the house at oddball times, times that would otherwise bring questions from my Significant Other.

Christine


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

RDWRER said:


> They clearly treat us like employees. They claim to provide a platform for us to make money with their aid, but it's obviously designed for them to make money off of our work. They hold all the information and hide it from us. Until they tell us where all the potential pax are and where our fellow Uber driving competitors are there's no way I'll even remotely see it otherwise. If I knew where there was a ton of drivers and very little requests I'd steer clear of that area, but as it is now I could be sitting right around the corner from 20 other drivers just twiddling my thumbs and not even know it. And that's my point really, albeit I'm rambling . I don't know a damn thing, which proves I'm not the one running the show. I may choose my hours, but I'm clearly not the boss...


There aren't many jobs where you are the boss. There's always someone to listen to, whose wants and needs have to be met if you're going to do the job and make any money.



dmoney155 said:


> Sure I make my own shifts, I drive where I want, and when I want. I like uber the way it is... when I don't like I just don't do it, simple. "Think" uber was never there to replace a real employment. Uber is here to better utilize your commute. So if you don't see favourable compensation simply stop driving until you do. No surge, no work. "Think", what will happen if you are classified as an employee? you will get min. wage, some lowest possible benefits if any. "Think" you will form an union and strike?, why not stop driving now then?
> 
> Exactly, why don't these who want to be employees join the already established industry?!


From what I understand, Uber started out with Black service, and was a new way to get upscale service and car conveniently.

Then they offered X and about the same rates as taxis, but being a more convenient service that Uber kept saying you didn't have to tip for (let a cabbie know you're not going to tip and s/he'll let you out a block away from your destination, in a thunder and lightening storm with a torrential downpour, stopped in a puddle the size of Lake Michigan) and then the rest came along. And then they started cutting rates to try and force the competition out.

And they don't want to work for the established industry because the established industry will treat them like employees. Even the cab companies that have drivers renting the vehicles do so for set days and times. They tell you when you can and can't work. And they are limited as to where drivers can accept street hails. And you'd better bring a muffin basket to the dispatcher when you start, if you're new, and share part of your earnings from trips s/he gave you at the end of your shift if you want to make any money at all.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Rockocubs said:


> I set my own hours and receive pay based on agreed upon rates. I consider myself and independent contractor.


 You don't set your rates, uber sets the rates and tells you to take it or leave it.

That's not an "agreement".

Look up the definition of an agreement. It's the result of negotiations between parties.

"Take it or leave it" is not a negotiation.

You don't even know where your work will take you until AFTER you accept the offer.

That's not the way a business owner works.



oldfart said:


> I work the airport and we Uber/lyft drivers share an air conditioned building with bathrooms, a tv and vending machines with the taxi drivers
> 
> It's not hard to tell the difference between us and them. The taxi drivers are all wearing white shirts, ties and black pants and black shoes. I'm wearing jeans and a tee shirt, they drive company owned cars and I own my car. They are here from the first incoming flight of the day until the last; every other day. I come and go as I please. They buy gas and split fares 50/50. I pay all my own expenses and my split with Uber is about 65/35
> 
> They are employees and I'm an independent businessman. And that's the way I want to keep it


A couple of weeks ago you were complaining that uber treats drivers like employees.

Now you've done a 180 and claim that we're businessmen.

You were correct two weeks ago.



SuzeCB said:


> There aren't many jobs where you are the boss. There's always someone to listen to, whose wants and needs have to be met if you're going to do the job and make any money.
> 
> From what I understand, Uber started out with Black service, and was a new way to get upscale service and car conveniently.
> 
> ...


I think I speak for most drivers when I say I don't want to be an employee, I want to be a TRUE IC.

Right now we're glorified employees.

A true IC has CONTROL over their work.

When another party is setting our rates, and hiding pcikup and destination addresses from us, that's NOT control.

No legitimate business owner operates that way.



SuzeCB said:


> Then they offered X and about the same rates as taxis,


In many markets, X rates were HIGHER than taxis, and in some markets, MUCH higher.

Uber X in San Francisco and New Orleans was $3.75 per mile in 2012-13


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> I think I speak for most drivers when I say I don't want to be an employee, I want to be a TRUE IC.
> 
> Right now we're glorified employees.
> 
> A true IC has CONTROL over their work.


Exactly!


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## Uber315 (Apr 11, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> You don't set your rates, uber sets the rates and tells you to take it or leave it.
> 
> That's not an "agreement".
> 
> ...


That was the same everywhere . While there was a shortage of cars. To get drivers hooked .

OK let me make this clear as can be. I'm not saying I want to be an employee. What I'm saying is up to now in order for Uber to get to where it is today They have intentionally manipulated many of the drivers Treated them as employee and cheated them in many many ways . They had to do this because if not their business model would not have worked. They are aware of the situation but they don't care . They will worry about it when the time comes . It's the same way as when it first started and the service was illegal in many states and countries , they did not care they went forward and paid the penalties when they finally had to . Now you must remember not all drivers have had the same experiences driving for Uber. I also know they owe everyone of you money as long as you have done things the right way. Trust me you will get what's owed to you. #andthatsafact


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> There aren't many jobs where you are the boss. There's always someone to listen to, whose wants and needs have to be met if you're going to do the job and make any money.


Working as an IC is different from having a "job".

A genuine IC is a business owner and their own boss.


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> I keep saying it, and it doesn't seem to be getting through...
> 
> *BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!!!*
> 
> ...


Scare tactics......


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Call it a negotiation or not, I don't care. Call it an agreement or not, it doesn't matter to me.

If you don't like the outcome, do something else.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different outcome.

Christine


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Working as an IC is different from having a "job".
> 
> A genuine IC is a business owner and their own boss.


And carries all their own insurance and licensing.

There's nothing stopping anyone from getting their own taxi or limo license, buying the proper insurance themselves, and paying their municipality the necessary fees to exist. Nothing at all.

This is different. And no, not all contracts are negotiated. You can certainly try, and some will negotiate with you and some won't. If neither party budges, then they both walk away. And if payment is part of that contract offered, well....


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> And carries all their own insurance and licensing.
> 
> There's nothing stopping anyone from getting their own taxi or limo license, buying the proper insurance themselves, and paying their municipality the necessary fees to exist. Nothing at all.


Of course there is .

The vast majority of cities in the US have caps on the number of taxi permits, and the cost of purchasing a permit from an existing permit-holder was so prohibitive, most drivers had no hope of ever owning their own taxi.

Before uber came along, a permit (medallion) in NYC was more than $1 million.

That's the reason so many taxi drivers signed up for uber.

If the taxi markets were free, uber wouldn't have been created, or would be a tiny fraction of the size it is now.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Of course there is .
> 
> The vast majority of cities in the US have caps on the number of taxi permits, and the cost of purchasing a permit from an existing permit-holder was so prohibitive, most drivers had no hope of ever owning their own taxi.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Those are your choices.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> Exactly. Those are your choices.


Exactly what?

Your previous post is incorrect.

Govt-imposed barriers to entry ELIMINATED choices.


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## Mr Bickle (Aug 4, 2018)

Uber315 said:


> I need everyone help in creating the largest possible list of reason that you all feel that we are misclassified as Independant contractors . In other words what does Uber do that makes you feel like an employee . Now if you feel like you are an independent contractor I would love to hear why you feel that way. I must say some are independent contractors but there are some that are misclassified .


Change? 
Can you spare some change? 
I believe Uber is prime for a class action lawsuit in Arizona... What kind of change are you talking about?


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

I've never understood this debate about employment status. What do these people expect? Health care coverage? Paid time off? Guaranteed minimum wage? The other day I went out and worked five hours and grossed $137 during the 10am to 3pm shift. I'm just not complaining.

We work where we want to work, when we want to work, for as long as we want to work. Get real.


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## Eugene73 (Jun 29, 2017)

whats the difference? , we don't get paid, all were doing is renting our cars to Uber and giving rides as charity


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

Coachman said:


> I've never understood this debate about employment status. What do these people expect? Health care coverage? Paid time off? Guaranteed minimum wage? The other day I went out and worked five hours and grossed $137 during the 10am to 3pm shift. I'm just not complaining.
> 
> We work where we want to work, when we want to work, for as long as we want to work. Get real.


They're not asking to be employees, they're saying their labeled as ICs but treated in some ways (with Uber exerting a good amount of control) like an employee.

It'll be nice if

1. Uber let's the drivers know ahead of time where the destination is, and how much approx the payout would be. When I was 1099 I knew how much I would get for each job and what the job entails workload wise and I could do it in my jammies, with smelly socks (if I wanted to, spoiler alert I wear none) with my hair in a messy bun and they wouldn't care.

I could work from my home, work from a cafe, work at my bf place or a boo-

2. If Uber allowed thumbs up / thumbs down with thumbs down meaning I never want to get matched with this person again.

Why should the rating only be one side effected?

3. Make it harder for passengers to start new rider accounts. Instead of basing it off of phone #s. Do cc and billing addy.


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## notmyfavoritething (Jun 25, 2018)

That's a tough one.

My husband is a photographer and I used to do sales with him, so this wasn't our first experience with the contractor nonsense. Except for our car, we used their equipment. It was their schedule. They chose the locations. You didn't always know all the locations before you got started. You didn't always know how long it was going to take. Often, at least some of it was commission, so you didn't always know how much you were going to get paid. Sometimes, you could end up getting paid less for working an extra hour. In theory, you could refuse to go someplace, but really you couldn't do that unless you were just really to quit anyway. 

In some ways, Uber (and some of the other apps) is more like an independent contractor should be, with choosing our own hours and such. But I'm still not able to do stuff like say upfront I won't work in parts of Dallas. I just do deliveries. I can choose not to accept an offer that looks like the restaurant is near downtown or someplace I don't want to go. But I don't know where the food is supposed to be delivered until after I get to the restaurant and pick up the food. If I cancel at that point, that's bad. So far I've avoided the parts of Dallas I don't want to deliver in by turning off the app as soon as I have to go deliver anywhere in Dallas and then driving away from Dallas and starting again. So that wastes time and gas and money. The situation with the toll roads is nonsense, so I'm trying to avoid that too but it doesn't always work. 

The other ways that it is like an independent contractor is that we use our own cars and pay for our own gas and pay for any other equipment we want to use. We aren't getting paid enough to do that.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> They're not asking to be employees, they're saying their labeled as ICs but treated in some ways (with Uber exerting a good amount of control) like an employee.
> 
> It'll be nice if
> 
> ...


So we agree
As long as we are asking for things that would be nice. How about world peace


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

oldfart said:


> So we agree
> As long as we are asking for things that would be nice. How about world peace


World peace is like asking for a rainbow with a pot of gold at the end.

The fact that you're comparing that to what was listed (far more reasonable and achievable) obv means we don't agree and

It also is sad because a lot of people doesn't have the belief that it can happen so of course they just accept it as is.

There's a difference between accepting something that would never change and something that can change.

Something that can't change-your crush loving you.

Something that can change-Uber letting you know where the passenger wants to go before accepting the ping. After all; didn't once Uber stand very strongly very firmly against no tipping in app?

Where are we now?


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> World peace is like asking for a rainbow with a pot of gold at the end.
> 
> The fact that you're comparing that to what was listed (far more reasonable and achievable) obv means we don't agree and
> 
> ...


I agree we are independent contractors and that there are a number things that make me "feel" like an employee and a number of things I'd like to see changed

Where we differ is that I don't care. It just dosent matter

For example 
Even if I know where the customer is going; that isn't going change anything for me. I'm probably going accept the ride
However 
If I want to screen for $20 rides I'm going to do it with or without the advance info


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

oldfart said:


> I agree we are independent contractors and that there are a number things that make me "feel" like an employee and a number of things I'd like to see changed
> 
> Where we differ is that I don't care. It just dosent matter
> 
> ...


Well I already knew you didn't care.

I was just speaking for the whole, in general.


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## nthefunkybunch (Jun 21, 2018)

On the topic of this, like this post so that my research team can execute a study that may hopefully result in a better work experience for you all!  Keep the likes comin, people!


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

sellkatsell44 said:


> They're not asking to be employees, they're saying their labeled as ICs but treated in some ways (with Uber exerting a good amount of control) like an employee.
> 
> It'll be nice if
> 
> ...


You can toss all that stuff out and just give me more money.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

Coachman said:


> You can toss all that stuff out and just give me more money.


Sure, as true ic you can set your rate.

If the fishes bite they bite.

You should really only give Uber a cut of the fare you receive for allowing you to use their app to connect with customers.


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## Pulledclear (Oct 31, 2017)

Hows that hope and change coming?


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## Uber315 (Apr 11, 2016)

Pulledclear said:


> Hows that hope and change coming?


Sit back and enjoy the Show !


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## WonderLeeWoman (Oct 6, 2017)

flyntflossy10 said:


> I think every night we all know what we're getting into. We all take the risks of driving. Knowing full well what could happen. SuzeCB is right. Be careful what you ask for. Could you imagine being scheduled for a completely dead part of the night? I mean somebody has to be logged on. What about inclement weather, but still be required to work? Even if our cars can't handle snow or storms?
> 
> For now, I'll stick to taking a chance on a ping versus the alternative. I will not drive for Uber if I'm an employee.


Seriously this kinda fear is what they want.


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

WonderLeeWoman said:


> Seriously this kinda fear is what they want.


It's not fear, it's common sense. I only do this because I am able to jump in and out at whim. If I have to commit to a shift I would rather drive a truck, public transit, taxi, limo, tour bus. I am glad they pay me anything at all. Wait till some "green" legislation comes up where as an owner of a vehicle you will be required to provide X amount of rides or ride with a passenger without any compensation whatsoever.


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## notmyfavoritething (Jun 25, 2018)

dmoney155 said:


> It's not fear, it's common sense. I only do this because I am able to jump in and out at whim. If I have to commit to a shift I would rather drive a truck, public transit, taxi, limo, tour bus. I am glad they pay me anything at all. Wait till some "green" legislation comes up where as an owner of a vehicle you will be required to provide X amount of rides or ride with a passenger without any compensation whatsoever.


That is an interesting thought.

I wonder how the passengers are supposed to get to my house so that I can drive wherever it is that one of us wants to go?


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

notmyfavoritething said:


> That is an interesting thought.
> 
> I wonder how the passengers are supposed to get to my house so that I can drive wherever it is that one of us wants to go?


Just like it is now... you decide to go somewhere, you will get matching rides. I'm telling ya, things can get bad pretty quick. Should delete that post as to not give lawmakers any ideas lol.


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## notmyfavoritething (Jun 25, 2018)

dmoney155 said:


> Just like it is now... you decide to go somewhere, you will get matching rides. I'm telling ya, things can get bad pretty quick. Should delete that post as to not give lawmakers any ideas lol.


No, no, like literally, you can't drive without a passenger. I can't drive away from my house to pick up the passenger or I'd get pulled over. I'd have to get one of my neighbors to come with me in order to go and get a third passenger, even though my neighbor doesn't need to go anywhere.


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## SHRPR (Jul 13, 2018)

I would consider an Uber driver as an Independent Contractor. The hours worked are not scheduled, you can work whenever and wherever you want. As far as I know, Uber d0esn't have the ability to tell their drivers when they need to be working and which locations they should be in, this is entirely up to the driver.


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

SHRPR said:


> I would consider an Uber driver as an Independent Contractor. The hours worked are not scheduled, you can work whenever and wherever you want. As far as I know, Uber d0esn't have the ability to tell their drivers when they need to be working and which locations they should be in, this is entirely up to the driver.


Just to play devil's advocate, you don't get to set own rate, and you don't know the entire job (ie destination) beforehand.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

dmoney155 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate, you don't get to set own rate, and you don't know the entire job (ie destination) beforehand.


Neither do cabbies, in many markets. That's the industry.


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## DoItNow (Jun 12, 2018)

Umdriving said:


> We are employees. A contractor, would know, what a job pays and the expectations of said job, before each endeavour. We dont know what we are getting paid, or where we are going, before we embark on each trip.
> 
> Like a salaried or hourly employee. The boss tells you where to go each day, and you go.
> 
> We should know where we are going, and what each job pays before hand. Like any other contractor.


I did have an expectation, and now is what Uber app wants me to make for the hours I spend... which some is below minimum wage. I am smart about it and make great money before Dara took over. Now he's pinching the shit out of "partners" taking their lunch money.


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## Las Vegas Dude (Sep 3, 2018)

How would Uber deal with “employees” that wanted to work 2 hours a day vs ones that wanted to work 12 hours a day with benefits? How would Uber deal with “employees” that just signed up to get the benefits and not really want to drive. They would have to do shifts for drivers and you would have to show up when you are scheduled to work and work in the area “good or bad” that they wanted you to.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Merc7186 said:


> Employees get paid time off, vacation, health benefits, etc
> , .


Where did you get a idea like that

I was an employee and was paid on a 100% commission basis, I was free to work or not work as I pleased and vacations were not paid. My employer did negotiate a health care insurance plan but I paid for my share of it


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## NOXDriver (Aug 12, 2018)

Umdriving said:


> We are employees. A contractor, would know, what a job pays and the expectations of said job, before each endeavour. We dont know what we are getting paid, or where we are going, before we embark on each trip.
> 
> Like a salaried or hourly employee. The boss tells you where to go each day, and you go.
> 
> We should know where we are going, and what each job pays before hand. Like any other contractor.


You have no idea what IC vs Employee is. It has NOTHING to do with pay, or the job, but HOW YOU DO IT.

Uber doesn't tell you when to work. Employees have a set schedule.
Uber doesn't tell you how to work. Employee's have a manual or policies to follow.
Uber doesn't care if you use GPS, paper maps, memory to get to the pick up or destination, only that you use the app to inform them of your progress. Employee's have to use company provided methods and tools.
Uber doesn't force you to accept a ride. Employees must to all work presented to them.
Uber doesn't supervise your activities. Employees have direct supervisors.

So stop with the BS 'we are employees' nonsense. Unless and until the above criteria are met you are, AT ANY POINT, EVER an EMPLOYEE.

It has NOTHING TO DO WITH PAY.
It has NOTHING TO DO WITH KNOWING WHO/WHAT/WHERE YOU PICK UP.
It has NOTHING TO DO WITH KNOWING WHO/WHAT/WHERE YOU DROP OFF.

If you don't like the amount of money you make, STOP DRIVING. You can't quit, you're not an employee.
If you don't like the way Uber presents to customer/trip to you, STOP DRIVING.

Honestly, if Uber DID hire you as an employee most of you would be fired in the first week. Why?

Uber would set a policy that you must accept 95% of the pings.
Uber would require strict and detailed maintenance of vehicles. How many ppl could afford that?
Uber would require cleanliness and safety inspections. How many cars would fail?
Uber would require you to bathe, wear clean clothes, not eat/smoke/take personal calls while driving.
Uber would require daily reports and supervisor check in.
And a whole lot of things that currently are not required because, wait for it, WE ARE NOT EMPLOYEES.



SuzeCB said:


> The questions that you raised here are ones have been raised repeatedly. They tend to make it sound like the average independent contractor it doesn't get all of these things from the contractor that it doesn't get all of these things from the general contractor that they work for. But they do. The general contractor outlines with the customer what the job is expected to be. If an electrician doesn't show up when they say they're going to, and they do it repeatedly, the general contractor will no longer do business with that electrician. If the general contractor tells an electrician that an outlet needs to be in a particular place, it's not the electricians choice to put it on the other side of the room or in a different room. If a general contractor gets too many complaints that an electrician was loud and obnoxious and dirty and stinky, the general contractor is not going to continue to do business with them because otherwise he's not going to get as much work as he could otherwise. If an electrician just flat-out turns down too much work that a general contractor asks him to do, the contractor will take him off of his list of electricians to use. If a customer complains that an electrician showed up on the job drunk, that electrician is going to be removed from the job as soon as the complaint is made. Whether or not that electrician is giving any other jobs may well depend on whether this is the first complaint or not. More than one complaint of this sort, in most jobs, does provide some support to the idea that they're all true. The difference in Uber's case is that they have, literally, put a bounty on driver heads by offering a $25 credit if the complaint results in the driver being deactivated permanently. That poses a problem.
> 
> Then there is the question of whether the subcontractor get all of the information about the job up front, before accepting or refusing it. For that, you have to take into consideration what the particular industry's standard is. I don't know about in your Market, but in New Jersey, and a New York, the standard is that the driver does not know. They don't find out until the passenger is in the car and gives them the destination, and they then call back into dispatch and confirm the destination with them, because it affects the price if it gets changed.
> 
> From the, admittedly, little research that I have done, laws against destination discrimination our Inn place in quite a few major city areas. This would include refusing to take someone because the ride is too short, unprofitable within the normal stated rates, or because you don't want to go to a particular neighborhood or municipality. Not giving the driver the destination is how the companies, weather Taxi or TNC, help present destination discrimination. Yes, of course it helps their bottom line most of the time. TNCs more than taxis. But it is widespread enough to be considered an industry standard, and as such, not proof of employee over independent contractor status.


You are so incorrect that its funny. It has NOTHING to do with 'getting all the information'. That is what YOU WANT. Not part of the agreement you made.

There are lots of handymen that will show up and work time and material. You call them, the arrive, you tell the what to do, they do it and present you a bill. TIME AND MATERIAL is a valid contract when the work is not specified in detail. Your 'dream' about being told about every nail and board is ONE type of agreement, but there are others (again, time and materials, flat rate, etc).

The ONLY metric for 'are you an IC' is HOW FREE ARE YOU TO DO THE WORK, UNDER YOUR OWN CONTROL.

Uber tells you: If you want $x, drive to point A, pick up person Z, dive to point B. At no time does Uber tell you how to do it. You are not required to use their GPS map, you can get there any way you like, using any route. Just get person Z to point B and get paid.

You really need to stop with poor analogies and actually understand what it means to be an employee.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

NOXDriver said:


> You have no idea what IC vs Employee is. It has NOTHING to do with pay, or the job, but HOW YOU DO IT.
> 
> Uber doesn't tell you when to work. Employees have a set schedule.
> Uber doesn't tell you how to work. Employee's have a manual or policies to follow.
> ...


Apparently you need to talk to the California Dept. of Labor and State Supreme Court, New York City and their Taxi & Limosine Commission, and New Jersey's Dept. of Labor & Workforce. Each of those have either decided that the TNCs are employers and drivers are employees already, or have instituted investigations into the matter.

But apparently you know the law better than any of them or the lawyers or judges that have looked into it, right?

Interesting reading:
https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs13.htm


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

SuzeCB said:


> Apparently you need to talk to the California Dept. of Labor and State Supreme Court, New York City and their Taxi & Limosine Commission, and New Jersey's Dept. of Labor & Workforce. Each of those have either decided that the TNCs are employers and drivers are employees already, or have instituted investigations into the matter.
> 
> But apparently you know the law better than any of them or the lawyers or judges that have looked into it, right?
> 
> ...


Liberal law is different than actual law.


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## Bevital (Mar 9, 2017)

I've spent my entire life as an 'employee'. I always had a set schedule, I always had to give a good reason if I wasnt going to show up. My wages were set. I was limited to 40 hours per week. My lunch break was predetermined or scheduled. If I wanted to take a 3 hour lunch I'd better have a good reason, and dont make it a habit. If I was late for work my pay was docked. If I worked more than 40 hours I was not compensated, unless it was authorized. if I were to be out sick for more than 3 days I had to get a doctors note in order to return to work. Are any of these true driving for Uber?


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

Bevital said:


> I've spent my entire life as an 'employee'. I always had a set schedule, I always had to give a good reason if I wasnt going to show up. My wages were set. I was limited to 40 hours per week. My lunch break was predetermined or scheduled. If I wanted to take a 3 hour lunch I'd better have a good reason, and dont make it a habit. If I was late for work my pay was docked. If I worked more than 40 hours I was not compensated, unless it was authorized. if I were to be out sick for more than 3 days I had to get a doctors note in order to return to work. Are any of these true driving for Uber?


You're barking up the wrong cactus bud.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Bevital said:


> I've spent my entire life as an 'employee'. I always had a set schedule, I always had to give a good reason if I wasnt going to show up. My wages were set. I was limited to 40 hours per week. My lunch break was predetermined or scheduled. If I wanted to take a 3 hour lunch I'd better have a good reason, and dont make it a habit. If I was late for work my pay was docked. If I worked more than 40 hours I was not compensated, unless it was authorized. if I were to be out sick for more than 3 days I had to get a doctors note in order to return to work. Are any of these true driving for Uber?


I'm not saying we are or aren't. Any time someone says one thing that points in one direction, someone else can point to something that points in the other. It's going to take the courts to figure out.



steveK2016 said:


> Liberal law is different than actual law.


And the link I posted was Federal Law. Which would that be? Or are we looking outside the US for our definitions now?


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## Bevital (Mar 9, 2017)

Being from Detroit, I've seen first hand what unions can do. A once magnificent city was turned into something straight out of a Mad Max movie. And I give the unions 90% of the credit. The U.S. automobile industry was completely destroyed by unions. Today the only thing that brought them back is the non-union labor states of the south and NAFTA (being able to build cars in Canada and Mexico outside of the reach of unions). The thing that separates Uber from Taxi's is the non-union drivers. Haven't you ever asked yourself why the taxi drivers haven't tried to compete against Uber? Its because unions don't have to compete. People use Uber because its cheap, its not just the cars, or the drivers, its because its a great value for the price.


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

Bevital said:


> Being from Detroit, I've seen first hand what unions can do. A once magnificent city was turned into something straight out of a Mad Max movie. And I give the unions 90% of the credit. The U.S. automobile industry was completely destroyed by unions. Today the only thing that brought them back is the non-union labor states of the south and NAFTA (being able to build cars in Canada and Mexico outside of the reach of unions). The thing that separates Uber from Taxi's is the non-union drivers. Haven't you ever asked yourself why the taxi drivers haven't tried to compete against Uber? Its because unions don't have to compete. People use Uber because its cheap, its not just the cars, or the drivers, its because its a great value for the price.


Except for the drivers....


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