# Private fares?



## peasantgirl (Jul 7, 2015)

Ok I know I could google this but it's more fun to talk to you guys. So I dropped off a fare at a popular bar and before I could get out of the parking lot I was approached by a couple offering $10 to go less than a mile. Of course I agreed. I returned to the bar (with Uber app running, hoping for a legit fare), and this time people literally opened the door and got in without even asking me if I could take them. I was like "Um, excuse me? Wtf?" They begged me to drive them home. (I think maybe they saw me take the last couple?) We agreed on $7, again less than one mile. 

Have I hit the jackpot with this bar, or is it too good to be true? Am i breaking any laws? Obviously insurance is an issue, but I guess if something happened I could claim I was their DD? But anyways, aside from insurance issues is there anything I should worry about? I mean, obviously these are complete strangers I'm letting in my car, but really they're just tipsy college kids who simply want to go home. The two rides I gave were honestly much nicer than many of the "legit" fares I've transported, who are usually entitled beyond belief. The money is tempting but I at least want to know what fates I'm tempting, lol. 

Advice?


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## Walkersm (Apr 15, 2014)

It's no problem as long as you got $25,000 on hand to defend yourself in a wrongful death lawsuit when that college kid you killed family comes after you for $5 million in his future earnings. You should get done paying that off through garnishments when you are about 90 or so. Uber On.


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## peasantgirl (Jul 7, 2015)

Ok I get your point, but that's like worst worst worst worst worst case scenario. About as likely as me winning the lottery, soooo....


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## Walkersm (Apr 15, 2014)

OK can you afford the $20,000 in medical bills after your car is hit by an uninsured driver and the customer hits his head. What I am trying to get thru to you in the concept of No insurance. It ruins peoples financial futures. You know what cab drivers do when it happens to them? They go back to thier home countries to escape the garnishments. You have another home country to go to?

I would consider you lucky if you got caught in a DOT sting and had to pay a $1000 fine and never did it again.

Point is businesses do not take these kinds of risks. You have coverage for the risks you know about, you do not hide your head in the sand and hope for the best. You are a business, not someone participating in the "sharing economy" courts do not recognize the sharing economy.


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## peasantgirl (Jul 7, 2015)

Ok, I already said I understand the insurance implications. I was asking if I was breaking any laws?


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## D Town (Apr 8, 2015)

Other than the insurance risk which has been so dramatically emphasized on an anti smoking ad level - even after you said you understood that - you may want to look at local ordinances for your municipality.


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## Walkersm (Apr 15, 2014)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok, I already said I understand the insurance implications. I was asking if I was breaking any laws?


Yes of course you are, but maybe no more than you are already breaking doing Uber. Depends on the regulations enacted in your state/city. Just a matter is if they choose to enforce them.


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## peasantgirl (Jul 7, 2015)

Walkersm said:


> Yes of course you are, but maybe no more than you are already breaking doing Uber. Depends on the regulations enacted in your state/city. Just a matter is if they choose to enforce them.


Eek! "Of course I am?" I was seriously hoping for a No. I can say I think my state is pretty accepting of Uber, but I can't swear to local ordinances. Guess I'm off to google after all.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

Here in LA there have sting operations targeting people just like you. Now I dont know about the laws in your state, but here your car gets impounded and you spend the night in jail. Now this may never happen to you BUT ! Is that want you want?

Youngsters think its so cute to do this, actually there pathetic. Plus the fact when they puke in your car then what ? No cleaning fee for you . Always have your doors locked.

On the flip side, ask if they have a valid c card. Have them Download the app right then and there and be on your way.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

Log out of the app and remove U sticker, then you can give random strangers ride for cash in hand.

Its your car, and your insurance will cover up to $$ damages your policy covers.

YMMV on your States law for giving strangers rides for money. Check Virginia Hitchhiker law.

In worst case scenario, i would use: " i gave ride home to drunks to prevent them from driving home" as my defence. Im not an attorney, so YMMV.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Accident causing a denied claim is definitely your biggest problem.

Pretty much everywhere has laws regulating vehicles for hire, cop catches wise and you're in for some fines. 

It is dangerous. Those you let in your car without a ping aren't traceable. No way of knowing who attacked you should it go badly. 

Just offer them a free ride after downloading app. You get most of these issues covered, a legit fare, and a referral bonus. What's the downside?


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## Renaldow (Jul 17, 2015)

This is almost like the Darwin Awards of Uber.


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## turbovator (Aug 3, 2015)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok I know I could google this but it's more fun to talk to you guys. So I dropped off a fare at a popular bar and before I could get out of the parking lot I was approached by a couple offering $10 to go less than a mile. Of course I agreed. I returned to the bar (with Uber app running, hoping for a legit fare), and this time people literally opened the door and got in without even asking me if I could take them. I was like "Um, excuse me? Wtf?" They begged me to drive them home. (I think maybe they saw me take the last couple?) We agreed on $7, again less than one mile.
> 
> Have I hit the jackpot with this bar, or is it too good to be true? Am i breaking any laws? Obviously insurance is an issue, but I guess if something happened I could claim I was their DD? But anyways, aside from insurance issues is there anything I should worry about? I mean, obviously these are complete strangers I'm letting in my car, but really they're just tipsy college kids who simply want to go home. The two rides I gave were honestly much nicer than many of the "legit" fares I've transported, who are usually entitled beyond belief. The money is tempting but I at least want to know what fates I'm tempting, lol.
> 
> Advice?


Am I missing something here looking at it from a rewards/risk standpoint?A $17 reward against a $1000000 lawsuit. Accidents just happen,they aren't foreseen. Maybe you are JoePro driver, what about the other guy who is drunk, high, a distracted driver or just a plain shit driver. Unless you like living life on the wild side edge you better tweek up the common sense side of your brain.


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## volksie (Apr 8, 2015)

Try to limit it to friends/neighbors to the airport, etc...It's not illegal to accept gas money from new & old friends .
Uber has illegally alienated us from tips & they think we should "BUY WATER" to bribe riders for good ratings. NOW THAT'S UNETHICAL!


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Tsk tsk.
She didn't get the answer she wanterld, poor OP.
Let me tell sweet sweet lies:
"Of COURSE it's legal. We can do whatever we WANT, it's America! ".


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Don't forget, Uber will deactivate you if they find out you are taking cash fares.

All you need is one customer to complain to Uber.


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## Goober (Oct 16, 2014)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok, I already said I understand the insurance implications. I was asking if I was breaking any laws?


There's typically a local ordinance in place (with a hefty +$1,000 fine) to ensure that the ability to "street hail", or get a ride without a reservation, is solely allotted to taxis...traditionally this protected taxis from limos/town cars and the occasional *********. Our app has mainly made a quick process of reserving a car/contacting for pick up.

I dropped off at a main event this winter and a guy walked up to my door dressed casually with a Mountain Dew bottle...asked me if I was free, said he just had to go down the street...I told him I had to do it through the App...then he showed me his badge and said, "Right answer."

If you really want to be able to do this, get the proper insurance and registration for your car, you can run a cab that also ubers. then you could build up a base of private clientele and charge what you see fit.


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## volksie (Apr 8, 2015)

observer said:


> Don't forget, Uber will deactivate you if they find out you are taking cash fares.
> 
> All you need is one customer to complain to Uber.


Not everyone HAS or WANTS the Uber app! It's other drivers that will throw you under the bus! REMAIN ANONYMOUS! If you get an Uber driver as a rider, bite your tongue! They DO NOT have your best interest in mind.
Regards,
Me


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## William1964 (Jul 28, 2015)

The worst case scenario is that the owner of this message board has already sent over the IP addresses of every poster at the website


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

volksie said:


> "Friends don't let friends drive drunk"! Not everyone HAS or WANTS the Uber app! (these forums call that Uber koolaid).
> Dear Drivers,
> Don't fear the riders! It's other drivers that will throw you under the bus! REMAIN ANONYMOUS! If you get an Uber driver as a rider, bite your tongue! They DO NOT have your best interest in mind.
> Regards,
> Me


Don't think you've paid attention to much in this conversation.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

William1964 said:


> The worst case scenario is that the owner of this message board has already sent over the IP addresses of every poster at the website


Which is fine by me, since I'm part of the 15% membership here that doesn't Uber.

I agree that this site could double as a lucrative data mining operation.

Check the ads during your Google search queries. 
"Looking for cash jobs?"
It's possible.


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## volksie (Apr 8, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Don't think you've paid attention to much in this conversation.


I went off subject a little, sorry. Please take notice of William1964's comment. Hmmm..


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## Walkersm (Apr 15, 2014)

peasantgirl said:


> Eek! "Of course I am?" I was seriously hoping for a No. I can say I think my state is pretty accepting of Uber, but I can't swear to local ordinances. Guess I'm off to google after all.


Doing a little bit of searching it does seem Uber is legal in the state of VA and that means that local cities cannot impose any further ordinances on the service. Once the state takes over regulation the cities have to accept. I the state does not implement any regulations then each city is free to make up their own.

So on this issue of Off the clock rides. That is still illegal off the Uber system. For every legal ride you have to produce a waybill showing customer names, pick up locations and date, and insurance covering that ride. That being said most cops know squat about commercial enforcement and will not even know to ask for a waybill. If you get pulled over and say you work for Uber and your customers say they hired an uber that is all you will need to get you on your way. If you happen to gt a DOT inspector or a commercial vehicle inspector that pulls you over (usually in a sting operation) you will get the ticket and impound.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

William1964 said:


> The worst case scenario is that the owner of this message board has already sent over the IP addresses of every poster at the website


Good point. I trust that it would take at least a courts order b4 they do.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

volksie said:


> I went off subject a little, sorry. Please take notice of William1964's comment. Hmmm..


No, I mean that you're ignoring the:

Fact you're committing a crime by picking up riders for cash
Fact you're ignoring the insurance liability that could destroy your ability to earn for decades.
Fact that if Uber finds out you accept street hails you will be deactivated from their platform.
Fact that you cannot be anonymous in your own car. Unless you remove the license plates.
Fact that it is dangerous playing ********* because you have no way of tracing your pax should they get violent.

Street hail/cash rides is a very, VERY bad idea.


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## volksie (Apr 8, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> No, I mean that you're ignoring the:
> 
> Fact you're committing a crime by picking up riders for cash
> Fact you're ignoring the insurance liability that could destroy your ability to earn for decades.
> ...


My points are hypothetical and I never said I was doing it. (Your points are good). Another point I made concerned anonymity. We immediately saw a post saying "would if our IP addresses were sent over". Sent over to Uber? I stand firmly that you can't and shouldn't share your thoughts face to face with other drivers.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

From your posts you seem to hypothetically be suggesting riders take street hails for cash. Just making sure the facts are out there.


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## volksie (Apr 8, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> From your posts you seem to hypothetically be suggesting riders take street hails for cash. Just making sure the facts are out there.


It sounds like the person who started this forum did the deed! Reread #1.
Here's a legit question: A Produce Manager (Employee) of a grocery store clocks out Saturday evening & he or she sells produce at a farmers market Sunday morning, is that ok? His car, his produce.
I have no plans on accepting drunk hails. What I do offline in my car on my gas & insurance is my business though.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Don't think you've paid attention to much in this conversation.


No one here is an attorney, everything that has been said here is an opinion.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

volksie said:


> It sounds like the person who started this forum did the deed! Reread #1.
> Here's a legit question: A Produce Manager (Employee) of a grocery store clocks out Saturday evening & he or she sells produce at a farmers market Sunday morning, is that ok?


Not the same, different rules apply to Cabs and hitchhikers.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

William1964 said:


> The worst case scenario is that the owner of this message board has already sent over the IP addresses of every poster at the website


You still have to get a court order for ISP to release our personal info. And you better have a god damn good reason for a judge to sign a court order.


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## volksie (Apr 8, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> Not the same, different rules apply to Cabs and hitchhikers.


True. "No gas, No grass, No ride" applied to hitchhikers.


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## Rex8976 (Nov 11, 2014)

Thanks to Peek-A-Boo insurance, no ping, no coverage.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but with no ping you are just another schlep out for a ride. 

No pingy, no payee.

The worst case scenario is still a viable scenario.


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## xciceroguy (Aug 10, 2015)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok I get your point, but that's like worst worst worst worst worst case scenario. About as likely as me winning the lottery, soooo....


People win the lottery everyday.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

volksie said:


> It sounds like the person who started this forum did the deed! Reread #1.
> Here's a legit question: A Produce Manager (Employee) of a grocery store clocks out Saturday evening & he or she sells produce at a farmers market Sunday morning, is that ok?


Yes, they did. But you went on later to say you're anonymous, take the cash, don't fear the rider etc etc.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> No one here is an attorney, everything that has been said here is an opinion.


True. But if unwilling to hire an attorney to give an actual legal opinion, I think it safe to assume most people should err on the side of caution and not risk a citation worth hundreds, an accident worth millions, or being assaulted. Especially when we are talking about making an extra $10. Risk vs reward.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok I get your point, but that's like worst worst worst worst worst case scenario. About as likely as me winning the lottery, soooo....


The more miles that you drive, the greater the odds of your being involved in a collision. This is one reason why insurance companies want to know how far you live from your place of employment. Further, this is one reason why insurance companies want to know if you are driving for a TNC. Thus, the odds of your getting into a collision are greater than you would care to admit.



Walkersm said:


> OK can you afford the $20,000 in medical bills after your car is hit by an uninsured driver and the customer hits his head. What I am trying to get thru to you in the concept of No insurance. It ruins peoples financial futures.
> 
> You know what cab drivers do when it happens to them? They go back to thier home countries to escape the garnishments. You have another home country to go to?
> 
> ...


This is the reason why you do not do this.

Cab drivers have insurance policies on their vehicles.

They do stings in the various jurisdictions, here. In Arlington, and Alexandria, Virginia, your car is impounded and you get a court date with a fine. If you get caught in Arlington, your car will sit at Arlington Mill and South Taylor until your court date. Once you have paid the fines, you get the towing, impoundment and storage bill. Is it becoming less and less worth it to take a risk for seventeen dollars, yet?

In the District of Columbia, you will receive a summons and your car is impounded. The impoundment fees and towing fees are ridiculously high. You must go to three different offices to do paperwork and pay. You stand in line at each office, you fill out the paperwork, then you must go to the Cashier, stand in line, again, pay, then go back to the office, stand in line again. You do this two more times. Then, you must get to the impound yard which is way down King Ave, SW below Bolling Field and the Naval Research Laboratory. Odds are that your car is at least scratched; more likely to have a gash or two. Complain about it and you will experience what it was like in every D.C. Government office when Barry, may he rest in peace, was Mayor.

In addition to the above, Uber has stated that it will de-activate you if you accept a street hail: ZERO TOLERANCE, NO WARNINGS.

Pay heed to the last two lines that I quoted from Walkersm's post. This is a business. You do not take risks like that in business. You assume that something will go south and prepare for it.



peasantgirl said:


> Ok, I already said I understand the insurance implications. I was asking if I was breaking any laws?


Yes, you are. You are not allowed to accept street hails anywhere in the Washington Metropolitan Area. You risk, at best, an impoundment and a summons. At worst, in Prince George's County, Maryland, you get a summons, impoundment and a trip to Upper Marlboro where you will be a guest of the Good Voters of Prince George's County. They have a friend named Arnold. You have heard of him, perhaps?



D Town said:


> Other than the insurance risk which has been so dramatically emphasized on an anti smoking ad level - even after you said you understood that - you may want to look at local ordinances for your municipality.


Take D-Town's advice if you will not take mine or anyone else's, here.



peasantgirl said:


> I can say I think my state is pretty accepting of Uber, but I can't swear to local ordinances.


The Commonwealth of Virginia is accepting of Uber only if its drivers recceive their passengers from the application. If you accept a street hail, the localities will impose sanctions. In addition, Uber will de-activate you--NO WARNINGS.



Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> Here in LA there have sting operations targeting people just like you. Now I dont know about the laws in your state, but here your car gets impounded and you spend the night in jail.
> 
> On the flip side, ask if they have a valid c card. Have them Download the app right then and there and be on your way.


They do stings in D.C. and Arlington. In Virginia and Montgomery County, Maryland, they impound, haul you into court and fine. In D.C., you can go to court or you can just pay all kinds of fines and fees, go to four different places and get back your car with a gash and scratches. In Prince George's County, Maryland, you get the impound, the fine, the court date and a trip to the hoosegow.



KGB7 said:


> Log out of the app and remove U sticker, then you can give random strangers ride for cash in hand.
> 
> Its your car, and your insurance will cover up to $$ damages your policy covers.
> 
> ...


Yes, you can, but if you get caught, there are consequences.

No, it will not---or are you trolling, here?

It is illegal in D.C., Maryland and Virginia to haul passengers without a licence for the driver and the vehicle. The TNCs bought a regulatory pass in D.C. that it recently enshrined. The TNCs came to an agreement with Virginia. The driver needs no special licence but the vehicle does. The law specifies that that passengers can be accepted only through an application. Uber came to an agreement with Maryland on Uber Black/SUV, but not UberX. Despite that, Maryland is currently not taking any action against TNC drivers unless they accept street hails.



BostonBarry said:


> Accident causing a denied claim is definitely your biggest problem.
> 
> Pretty much everywhere has laws regulating vehicles for hire, cop catches wise and you're in for some fines.
> 
> It is dangerous. Those you let in your car without a ping aren't traceable. No way of knowing who attacked you should it go badly.


The odds of this' happening are far greater than you would care to admit.

Pay heed to this.

Being a woman, you should pay extra heed to this one.



Goober said:


> There's typically a local ordinance in place (with a hefty +$1,000 fine) to ensure that the ability to "street hail", or get a ride without a reservation, is solely allotted to taxis


This is the bottom line. In the District of Columbia, Maryland and Virginia, only a taxicab may accept a street hail and only in its jurisdiction of licensure may it accept a street hail.

A taxicab can pick up a passenger in a jurisdiction other than that in which it is licenced, but only in response to a telephone call, electronic summons or previous arrangement. The passenger must be returning to the taxicab's jursidiction of licensure. The exception to this is Prince George's County, Maryland. Only PG licenced cabs may pick up there under any circumstance. The other jurisdictions signatory to the Reciprocal Agreement and Interstate Compact of 1947 bar Prince George's County taxicabs from picking up in their jurisdictions. National Airport, the Pentagon and Arlington Cemetery are exceptions. The latter two are Federally controlled. The former was Federally controlled, so the permission for PG cabs to work there dates from that era. The Airports Authority has not altered that.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> True. But if unwilling to hire an attorney to give an actual legal opinion, I think it safe to assume most people should err on the side of caution and not risk a citation worth hundreds, an accident worth millions, or being assaulted. Especially when we are talking about making an extra $10. Risk vs reward.


Same risks apply when driving legally under Uber umbrella.

And you cant be sued for Millions if you have no Millions. Your vehicle insurance or other drivers insurance will cover property damages and medical damages, beyond that you wont get a penny. Unless you get hit by Donald Trump who was driving drunk backwards.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

volksie said:


> Here's a legit question: A Produce Manager (Employee) of a grocery store clocks out Saturday evening & he or she sells produce at a farmers market Sunday morning, is that ok?


Whose produce is he selling?



xciceroguy said:


> People win the lottery everyday.


......and more people get into collisons everyday than win the lottery..........


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> Yes, you can, but if you get caught, there are consequences.
> 
> No, it will not---or are you trolling, here?
> 
> It is illegal in D.C., Maryland and Virginia to haul passengers without a licence for the driver and the vehicle. The TNCs bought a regulatory pass in D.C. that it recently enshrined. The TNCs came to an agreement with Virginia. The driver needs no special licence but the vehicle does. The law specifies that that passengers can be accepted only through an application. Uber came to an agreement with Maryland on Uber Black/SUV, but not UberX. Despite that, Maryland is currently not taking any action against TNC drivers unless they accept street hails.


If i see a person with hand out on the curb wanting a pick up, then yes you should keep driving. But, if you standing in a parking lot smoking a cig and a drunk asks for a ride, ...is that a street hail?? If yes. Whats the difference then between a person who needs a ride to a gas station because his car ran out of fuel?


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Sure. Uber policy is just a meaningless piece of paper. You aren't covered by any insurance ever. 

If you take a street hail, someone agrees to pay you for a ride, an accident happens and your insurer finds out the claim will be denied. No medical payment. No collision. Nothing.

Just because you don't have millions doesn't mean you can't be sued for millions. Judgement is awarded and a portion of your earnings is garnished until the end of your days. But, by all means, enjoy the $17.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> If i see a person with hand out on the curb wanting a pick up, then yes you should keep driving. But, if you standing in a parking lot smoking a cig and a drunk asks for a ride, ...is that a street hail?? If yes. Whats the difference then between a person who needs a ride to a gas station because his car ran out of fuel?


 The difference is setting a price in exchange for services. Someone stranded who you help out of the goodness of your heart is not the same.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

If you accept money from the drunk or the guy who has run out of gasolene, it is, in fact, a street hail.


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## Jose_A (Jul 5, 2015)

In my experience, I've only ever had one street hail attempt. I had just dropped off a carload in AdMo, and immediately after, another group approached me asking me to take them back to Arlington. I told them they needed to request through the app. No one had downloaded the app, so I gave them my referral code. It was a group of 5, and they all ended up downloading the app. I got $25 free for that, and it was a 1.5 surge. All in all, I ended up getting $60 from that, and they all split it, basically giving them a free ride. Worked out for everyone.

I'm never even remotely tempted with the idea of street hails. They can promise to pay me x amount, but there's no way to actually hold them to it. I also fail to see what's so hard about requesting through the app, and if they refuse to download it and take their free ride, something is not right. I had no idea the cops were doing stings, but good thing I wasn't breaking any laws. Now if only the cops would be more vigilant about busting clown cars....


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Sure. Uber policy is just a meaningless piece of paper. You aren't covered by any insurance ever.
> 
> If you take a street hail, someone agrees to pay you for a ride, an accident happens and your insurer finds out the claim will be denied. No medical payment. No collision. Nothing.
> 
> Just because you don't have millions doesn't mean you can't be sued for millions. Judgement is awarded and a portion of your earnings is garnished until the end of your days. But, by all means, enjoy the $17.


So if you get in to an accident with your mother in your car, your insurance wont cover her medical bills or the other drivers insurance?

A smart attorney wont take the case if a person at fault has no money to give. Ive already been through the ringer in a similar case.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Seriously dude, are you just arguing to argue? Uber passengers are covered by Uber insurance. Personal passengers are covered by personal insurance. Some random idiot PAYING you for a ride outside of Uber is covered by NO INSURANCE. Is this so hard to understand? And if you think you can trust that some random schmuck who can't afford a cab or doesn't have a credit card will NEVER EVER sue you because they don't want free money then, as I said, enjoy your $17.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Seriously dude, are you just arguing to argue? Uber passengers are covered by Uber insurance. Personal passengers are covered by personal insurance. Some random idiot PAYING you for a ride outside of Uber is covered by NO INSURANCE. Is this so hard to understand? And if you think you can trust that some random schmuck who can't afford a cab or doesn't have a credit card will NEVER EVER sue you because they don't want free money then, as I said, enjoy your $17.


Random people are covered by your insurance. Call your insurance right now and ask, they are open 24/7.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Yes. Yes they are. Random people who HIRE (ie pay money for you to take them somewhere) are NOT. Take your own challenge. Call them. Say a stranger offered you $20 for a ride. Ask if there is an accident whether your policy is void. 

BTW, there is also a criminal clause in most policies. So if you wreck your car in a high speed chase from the cops, you aren't covered. If you agree to drive someone for payment you are breaking the law and voiding your insurance. I'm done playing broken record for the learning impared.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Yes. Yes they are. Random people who HIRE (ie pay money for you to take them somewhere) are NOT. Take your own challenge. Call them. Say a stranger offered you $20 for a ride. Ask if there is an accident whether your policy is void.
> 
> BTW, there is also a criminal clause in most policies. So if you wreck your car in a high speed chase from the cops, you aren't covered. If you agree to drive someone for payment you are breaking the law and voiding your insurance. I'm done playing broken record for the learning impared.


Learning impaired? Dont blow a gasket dude. If you cant have a conversation with out name calling,.. then **** off!


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

A conversation does not involve the repetition of the same facts over and over again to someone who doesn't want to face facts. You clearly think street hail is a neato way to earn huge bucks and comes with zero risk. So for the last time, enjoy your $17.

Point of fact: learning impaired is not a name, it is a description of a state of being.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> A conversation does not involve the repetition of the same facts over and over again to someone who doesn't want to face facts. You clearly think street hail is a neato way to earn huge bucks and comes with zero risk. So for the last time, enjoy your $17.
> 
> Point of fact: learning impaired is not a name, it is a description of a state of being.


Facts?

1. You dont work for Insurance company of any kind.
2. You are a not a lawyer.
3, Everything you said is an opinion.

4. I wont repeat my self what you should do.

5. Learning impaired is a Disability protected by Federal Gov.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Unlike you I've read my policy. And unlike you I have common sense which tells me that letting an untraceable person/potential psychopath into your car for a quick buck is a terrible idea. Also know for a fact, at least where I live and where original poster lives that street hail is illegal. Gypsy cabs get busted all the time. My friend's nephew being one of them. How about you go back through this thread and read how many people say it is dumb and then count number saying OF COURSE DO IT, NOTHING CAN GO WRONG!


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Unlike you I've read my policy. And unlike you I have common sense which tells me that letting an untraceable person/potential psychopath into your car for a quick buck is a terrible idea. Also know for a fact, at least where I live and where original poster lives that street hail is illegal. Gypsy cabs get busted all the time. My friend's nephew being one of them. How about you go back through this thread and read how many people say it is dumb and then count number saying OF COURSE DO IT, NOTHING CAN GO WRONG!


You havent read your policy dude. I have my policy on screen and there is nothing about hitchhiker or giving rides to random people.

Even Uber drivers legally pick up people who at any time will kill you or rape you. Real cases have been posted here many times.

Other people have stated an opinion.

You wont even find anything on Google for insurance coverage for giving rides to random people and that your insurance wont cover the damages... money or no money.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

Straight from the horses mouth.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

https://www.geico.com/getaquote/ridesharing/

http://m.sfgate.com/business/article/Leaked-transcript-shows-Geico-s-stance-against-5910113.php

http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Drivers-for-Uber-Lyft-stuck-in-insurance-limbo-5183379.php

https://www.policygenius.com/blog/insurance-secret-uber-doesnt-want-know/

Do I need to go on or do you know how to use a computer?


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> Straight from the horses mouth.
> 
> View attachment 13055


Given your inability to properly understand English I would like to see the email you sent. I'm willing to bet you left the "stranger wants me to give them a ride in exchange for cash" and just asked if any pax in your car is covered.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> So if you get in to an accident with your mother in your car, your insurance wont cover her medical bills or the other drivers insurance?
> 
> A smart attorney wont take the case if a person at fault has no money to give. Ive already been through the ringer in a similar case.


Your mother isn't likely to respond to the situation in the same way a stranger (pax) might. Your personal policy may cover your mother or hitcher's injuries up to a certain point and then stop, then it may be up to your mother's insurance or your hitcher's insurance to kick in.

It is quite possible, that the hitchhiker might not be happy with things and could stir up all sorts of trouble, they could make all sorts of claims, pretend tey thought they were in fact on an actual Uber ride.......

Insurance companies have buildings full of lawyers, if they see and smell an out, they will go for it. If you are hauling a complete stranger at the time of an accident, a driver would have zero clue as how they might react after the fact and that reaction would be out of their control.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> https://www.geico.com/getaquote/ridesharing/
> 
> http://m.sfgate.com/business/article/Leaked-transcript-shows-Geico-s-stance-against-5910113.php
> 
> ...


/facepalm

I posted a direct response from Geico.

Can you read?


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Nice tread 

I only see one thing here

A guy trying to scare drivers ( after they have been asked to break all laws by uber)
The crook in turns in to a saint


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Given your inability to properly understand English I would like to see the email you sent. I'm willing to bet you left the "stranger wants me to give them a ride in exchange for cash" and just asked if any pax in your car is covered.


My inability to understand English?? You are some piece of work. You just cant control your self with out downgrading other people. You didnt get hugged enough as a child??

Waiting for second answer.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

Ohh look, i got an answer.

Now do every one a favor and stop wasting everyone's oxygen.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> My inability to understand English?? You are some piece of work. You just cant control your self with out downgrading other people. You didnt get hugged enough as a child??
> 
> Waiting for second answer.


LOL, like I said. No reading comprehension. You didn't say a WORD about taking money from the strangee. Just give it up dude, you are wrong on every single point.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

Look at the time stamp.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

It's the new era 
Follow the rules you are a idiot 
Don't follow them , you are a idiot 

Take the choice that leaves you with more money


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Since you seem to have forgotten, this is what I said:



BostonBarry said:


> Yes. Yes they are. Random people who HIRE (ie pay money for you to take them somewhere) are NOT. Take your own challenge. Call them. Say a stranger offered you $20 for a ride. Ask if there is an accident whether your policy is void.
> 
> BTW, there is also a criminal clause in most policies. So if you wreck your car in a high speed chase from the cops, you aren't covered. If you agree to drive someone for payment you are breaking the law and voiding your insurance. I'm done playing broken record for the learning impared.


Got that down now? Anyone in your car is covered by your personal policy. UNTIL they agree to pay you for that ride. Then you're on your own.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Since you seem to have forgotten, this is what I said:
> 
> Got that down now? Anyone in your car is covered by your personal policy. UNTIL they agree to pay you for that ride. Then you're on your own.


Check images i posted. Post #63.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> Look at the time stamp.
> 
> View attachment 13061
> View attachment 13062


Honestly, that reads like some automated response. Personally, I don't know if I would count on that if they were actually called upon. It reads like a sales pitch and not much more "If you have any more questions regarding getting a policy with us."

I thought I read a previous post in this thread excluding themselves from covering a driver's actual livery work. I will go back and look for it.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

Huberis said:


> Honestly, that reads like some automated response. Personally, I don't know if I would count on that if they were actually called upon. It reads like a sales pitch and not much more "If you have any more questions regarding getting a policy with us."
> 
> I thought I read a previous post in this thread excluding themselves from covering a driver's actual livery work. I will go back and look for it.


Sales pitch is irrelevant. Anything that is written black on white can be used in the court of law. Geico isnt dumb to state random false facts over email with out knowing legal consequences.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

No, they wouldn't lie. But you just might be beyond all help since you can't follow the easiest of instructions. Here is an actual conversation with Geico. On this and my links I graciously provided, I rest my case.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> Sales pitch is irrelevant. Anything that is written black on white can be used in the court of law. Geico isnt dumb to state random false facts over email with out knowing legal consequences.


It also states that any work you do in association with a ridesharing service would not be covered. If you were to take a ride for money under the table, you would still be acting as an Uber driver, just under the table.

I read your response, it simply didn't sound as if there was a human response behind it. If I get a chance, for giggles I'll call Geico. Geico wants to sell you their policy, that much we know. From the correspondence, I'd guess you don't have the insurance yet? Is that correct? This is an email, it is not a signed contract. Court of law........ not if they present you in the future with some sort of amendment in contradiction to the terms of the email.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> No, they wouldn't lie. But you just might be beyond all help since you can't follow the easiest of instructions. Here is an actual conversation with Geico. On this and my links I graciously provided, I rest my case.


Key words; "it could". Agent didnt not say; "it will for the fact 100% void".

Further more, word "frequently" is subjective. Do you know what subjective means??

You need to take english lessons.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

I'm on the phone with Geico now.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

Huberis said:


> I'm on the phone with Geico now.


record the audio.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

And by the way, in case you're jumping on the "if it's once in a while" line to Aha! me, then consider this: the whole business model of insurance involves minimizing claims. They will take any excuse. Say you do only try this INCREDIBLY stupid thing once, how are you going to prove to Geico it is only "once in a while"? Especially when their investigators could probably find more than a few people to say you cruise this area often on rideshare and waiting outside this one bar to get cash customers.

Unlicensed vehicle for hire is more often than not illegal, frequently resulting in stiff fines and possible impound.

Without a credit card and GPS on phone to trace creeps, you open yourself to violence and since you are taking cash you make it more likely you will be robbed.

If you street hail and are a rideshare driver they WILL deactivate you.

If you get in an accident you are not likely to get paid on your insurance claim, unless the pax is willing to lie and risk being charged with insurance fraud to help you, a complete stranger. Oh and when they don't lie and you already have, guess what, now YOU get nabbed for insurance fraud.

All for a few bucks. So again, tell me how this is the smartest thing a person can do.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> And by the way, in case you're jumping on the "if it's once in a while" line to Aha! me, then consider this: the whole business model of insurance involves minimizing claims. They will take any excuse. Say you do only try this INCREDIBLY stupid thing once, how are you going to prove to Geico it is only "once in a while"? Especially when their investigators could probably find more than a few people to say you cruise this area often on rideshare and waiting outside this one bar to get cash customers.
> 
> Unlicensed vehicle for hire is more often than not illegal, frequently resulting in stiff fines and possible impound.
> 
> ...


Imagine you are Geico, how you are going to prove ive done it more then once?

Jessica said nothing about covering random drunks under Geico insurance... money or no money.

You fail!


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

This woman is clueless. She has no concept concerning phase 1, 2 or 3...... Now I am on hold. She is trying to figure out if they have the coverage in PA.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> Imagine you are Geico, how you are going to prove ive done it more then once?
> 
> Jessica said nothing about covering random drunks under Geico insurance... money or no money.
> 
> You fail!


Ok...so NOW what part of a clearly stated English sentence are you having trouble with?

"If your nephew is doing this frequently it could certainly void his insurance policy." Straight from Geico. In their app chat no less. How exactly are you failing to understand NOW?


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Ok...so NOW what part of a clearly stated English sentence are you having trouble with?
> 
> "If your nephew is doing this frequently it could certainly void his insurance policy." Straight from Geico. In their app chat no less. How exactly are you failing to understand NOW?


1. Voiding insurance policy was not in question to begin with.
2.You and i have only talked about insurance coverage.
3. You have avoided the subject all together, by asking agent Jessica about voiding a policy. You did not ask about coverage during an accident if there was money exchanged at any give time for a ride.

4. Take English lessons.
5. Learn to argue with facts and when you fail admit your failure.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> record the audio.


There was nothing to record. I called he number in your link. Is this rideshare specific insurance? I assumed it was and inquired about phase one collision coverage. She didn;t know what phase 1 was.

Then asked about the guy holding up the light post with a 20 dollar bill in hand who then happens to be caught up in my cluster**** of an accident.

She said she had zero clue. First she had to recheck if it is offered in my state. It seems to be so. Then she said she would need to refer me to the commercial side of their operation because that is who runs the rideshare insurance program. I told her my friend (close enough) who gave me this exact number posed this exact question and received the following response: I read her your screenshot.

She had no clue, just that simple. She gave me a different number which I didn't bother to write down. I asked her why they gave me thenumber from your email if it is handled by a different department and she gave me some sort of meaningless verbal salad.

Basically, the bottom line was she had zero meaningful information as to either question: Phase 1 collision coverage and random paying stranger.

I was told to call a different number. That is all I could get from her.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> Sales pitch is irrelevant. Anything that is written black on white can be used in the court of law. Geico isnt dumb to state random false facts over email with out knowing legal consequences.


Correct, and here is Geico telling you your personal policy doesn't cover rides for hire. And not just some random agent, but their info on their website. But by all means, keep making yourself look a fool. I'm having a good laugh.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> 1. Voiding insurance policy was not in question to begin with.
> 2.You and i have only talked about insurance coverage.
> 3. You have avoided the subject all together, by asking agent Jessica about voiding a policy. You did not ask about coverage during an accident if there was money exchanged at any give time for a ride.
> 
> ...


 You can't be this stupid. You just can't. Void policy = no coverage.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Correct, and here is Geico telling you your personal policy doesn't cover rides for hire. And not just some random agent, but their info on their website. But by all means, keep making yourself look a fool. I'm having a good laugh.


Holly shit!

It clearly states "ridesharing". Ridesharing is Uber, Lyft, sidecar, etc. It says nothing about giving random people rides for money.

You grasping at straws. I suggest you stop. You fail.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> You can't be this stupid. You just can't. Void policy = no coverage.


But do drunks that gave me $20 are covered in case of accident? Yes or no?


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> Holly shit!
> 
> It clearly states "ridesharing". Ridesharing is Uber, Lyft, sidecar, etc. It says nothing about giving random people rides for money.
> 
> You grasping at straws. I suggest you stop. You fail.


Read it again genius. Yes it mentions rideshare. However, read the line "A lot of personal auto policies explicitly exclude the use of your personal vehicle for hire."

As for the drunk, as Jessica said:

"If your nephew is doing this frequently it could certainly void his insurance policy."


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

I would think that if there was a serious claim, and word got back to your insurance company that the passenger was a complete stranger, in other words someone who had zero business being in your car, a person who claims that they paid you to take them somewhere in the hope of getting more money from you. There has got to be the possibility your insurance company could see you as having been driving for hire at that point. At the time of a claim, do they care if it is Uber or Lyft? Seems unlikely.

In terms of yes or no, I'd assume yes if you can hide from the fact that you took money. It'd be hard to imagine them covering if they got wind it was a stranger who gave you money. They would have to be stupid to do that wouldn't they?

If they couldn't prove you took money, but the person clearly was a stranger who had zero business being in your car, the hour was strange, they might take issue with that and review your policy. Part of the issue has got to be not so much the exchange of money but what it represents- the exchange of money represents a person in the car at the time of an accident who had no need to be there at that time. That person is an added liability. If you have a car, it is expected that you will drive friends around. But just to drive around random strangers, is probably considered less than desirable. 

Even if they do pay the claim...... you are still ****ed, you might wind up in a place you had no reason to be in an accident that had you not boarded a stranger, you would have avoided. Your car will be damaged, your premiums could go up. 

It is a risk.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Read it again genius. Yes it mentions rideshare. However, read the line "A lot of personal auto policies explicitly exclude the use of your personal vehicle for hire."
> 
> As for the drunk, as Jessica said:
> 
> "If your nephew is doing this frequently it could certainly void his insurance policy."


You cant be that dumb!!

Let me you ask you one more time.

Will a random passenger is covered under your policy? Yes or no?


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

We've covered this. Not if they pay you, no. You are operating a vehicle for hire. You are breaking the law and have violated your policy. If you can't figure that out from the 6 links I gave or the LEGIT message from Geico unlike your invented crap, then we're done here.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> We've covered this. Not if they pay you, no. You are operating a vehicle for hire. You are breaking the law and have violated your policy. If you can't figure that out from the 6 links I gave or the LEGIT message from Geico unlike your invented crap, then we're done here.


You showed no proof. For hire has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I showed you proof.

You keep avoiding the main topic by dancing around.

Stop breathing my oxygen.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Jesus now I have to help you understand what for hire means. Here you go 40 watt:

http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.72.010


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Jesus now I have to help you understand what for hire means. Here you go 40 watt:
> 
> http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.72.010


You and i dont live in the State of WA. You, your cousin and I dont have "for hire" license plates.

Stop seeking my approval, its not attractive and its just downright pathetic.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

SMH, I can find that same wording in any state of you want. It was the first Google result. License plates do not a vehicle for hire make. Taking pax for money is vehicle for hire. My netflix marathon is almost finished. You have precious little time left to save face and admit your error. Otherwise, good night.


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> SMH, I can find that same wording in any state of you want. It was the first Google result. License plates do not a vehicle for hire make. Taking pax for money is vehicle for hire. My netflix marathon is almost finished. You have precious little time left to save face and admit your error. Otherwise, good night.


**** off and good night.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

> The term "for hire vehicle" includes all vehicles used for the transportation of passengers for compensation





> The term "for hire operator" means and includes any person, concern, or entity engaged in the transportation of passengers for compensation in for hire vehicles.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Have you guys arguing noticed the original poster went off to Google long ago?


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Have you guys arguing noticed the original poster went off to Google long ago?


Because we're so much fun to talk with.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Anyone can argue back and forth about what the insurance company will/will not, can/can not do. All that I could add is "try it, and if you are posting a topic in six months entitled *(Four letter Anglo-Saxon word for "copulate")__________ (insert name of insurance company), I got cancelled for carrying PAX off TNC app!, *do not expect too much sympathy from those who stated that the insurer will drop anyone who does that. In fact, expect a blizzard of "I told you so" and a torrent of foul language and name calling."

While insurance is the most likely and could be the most devastating source of a problem, consider the others.

In some jurisdictions, the Enforcement is doing stings. They are in the District of Columbia. I have heard that they are in Arlington. If the Hack Inspector who likes to entrap non-Montgomery County cab drivers near Wisconsin and Willard has been doing it, I would not be surprised. I have not heard that he is, but it would not surprise me if someone told me that he had popped a few TNC drivers. I am not aware of any stings in Alexandria, but I have heard that individual polices have popped TNC drivers for taking on street hails. I have heard nothing on the subject from Fairfax County. I am not aware of any TNC driver's being popped in Prince George's County, but I have heard from a police or two out there that if they see it, they will act.

The other hazard is de-activation, if you drive Uber (other than Uber Taxi). Uber has stated specifically and more than once that if you accept a street hail, you will be de-activated, no warnings and no questions asked. Scream and holler all that you will about turning off the application, do keep in mind that it is in your contract that Uber does not need a reason to de-activate you. Separation for "no reason" has held up in District of Columbia and Delaware Courts as well as in proceedings before D.C. government agencies. In fact, one firm had its "no reason" separation policy upheld by an adjudicatory panel that was overtly hostile to the firm and demonstrated overt favouritism toward the separated. Despite that, the agency upheld the firm's "no reason" clause in the contract as enforceable. The D.C. court showed a more veiled bias toward the separated but, still, after a *certiorari* to the Delaware court, it had no choice but to uphold the policy. The questions in the writ were so obviously biased toward the plaintiffs (the separated) that the firm's lawyer filed formal protests in both D.C. and Delaware courts.

See *Farahpour et al. vs. DCX and Price, Proctor et al. vs. DCX. *The former is a court case, the latter a case before the D.C. Taxicab Commission.

I can state with authority on this; I have been down this road more than once.


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## ashevillecabbie (Sep 4, 2015)

peasantgirl said:


> Have I hit the jackpot with this bar, or is it too good to be true? Am i breaking any laws?


As has already been stated, of course you are, but probably no more than you've already been doing with Uber.

That said, enforcement of these types of laws is not much of a priority in many locales--which is why Uber has spread so rapidly and operated with so much impunity despite being in defiance of so many regulations in so many places.

In my town there have already been illegal gypsy cabs for years, operating in plain sight, which may explain why Uber has not done so well here.

Legal or not, I can understand why you're tempted to play by Travis K's "special rules" (his motto seems to be "Damn the Consequences"!) and just go for it...


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Nice pissing contest!
I hate that little ffn Gecko.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok I know I could google this but it's more fun to talk to you guys. So I dropped off a fare at a popular bar and before I could get out of the parking lot I was approached by a couple offering $10 to go less than a mile. Of course I agreed. I returned to the bar (with Uber app running, hoping for a legit fare), and this time people literally opened the door and got in without even asking me if I could take them. I was like "Um, excuse me? Wtf?" They begged me to drive them home. (I think maybe they saw me take the last couple?) We agreed on $7, again less than one mile.
> 
> Have I hit the jackpot with this bar, or is it too good to be true? Am i breaking any laws? Obviously insurance is an issue, but I guess if something happened I could claim I was their DD? But anyways, aside from insurance issues is there anything I should worry about? I mean, obviously these are complete strangers I'm letting in my car, but really they're just tipsy college kids who simply want to go home. The two rides I gave were honestly much nicer than many of the "legit" fares I've transported, who are usually entitled beyond belief. The money is tempting but I at least want to know what fates I'm tempting, lol.
> 
> Advice?


almost every city has laws against this its called ********* and is illegal and it also could get you deactivated if Uber finds out

but here is the more serious issue and it's the insurance aspects if you get into an accident and you will be causing an insurance nightmare / quagmire for your passengers and your self I strongly advise you against doing this


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## glados (May 23, 2015)

Cash fares are against the law and you are not covered by any insurance when driving off the app. Uber immediately and permanently deactivates drivers even for a single $7 cash fare.

To ensure you're covered by insurance, never accept unregistered, undocumented off the record fares. You can always ask them to register and download the Uber app.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok, I already said I understand the insurance implications. I was asking if I was breaking any laws?


Probably breaking some rules but would be very difficult to prove. They would have to prove money was exchanged for it to be a commercial trip. Don't take a credit card!


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## Scenicruiser (Oct 17, 2014)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Have you guys arguing noticed the original poster went off to Google long ago?


Maybe...but usually that means they would rather we all got together for a heated discussion and pot luck in thier living room.
If you think it's ok to *********...bring chips. Cab drivers that think all drivers that uber are gypsy cabs brings dip. If you think ubers insurance will cover you and protect your assets...bring booze. Tues night is usually slow. Does that work for everybody?


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## Wil_Iam_Fuber'd (Aug 17, 2015)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok I get your point, but that's like worst worst worst worst worst case scenario. About as likely as me winning the lottery, soooo....


You asked what "fates" you are tempting. These are them! DO it or don't, but either way I would shut up about it here.
JM2C


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## Wil_Iam_Fuber'd (Aug 17, 2015)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok, I already said I understand the insurance implications. I was asking if I was breaking any laws?


Probably. Livery, Taxi, TNC or Vehicle for Hire services are regulated in most municipalities. Taking a fare for compensation is one of these. Check with your local government.


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## Wil_Iam_Fuber'd (Aug 17, 2015)

peasantgirl said:


> Eek! "Of course I am?" I was seriously hoping for a No. I can say I think my state is pretty accepting of Uber, but I can't swear to local ordinances. Guess I'm off to google after all.


How silly are you? Seriously.


----------



## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> Probably breaking some rules but would be very difficult to prove. They would have to prove money was exchanged for it to be a commercial trip. Don't take a credit card!


I think you should agressively seek cash fares near police stings.


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## newsboy559 (Oct 14, 2014)

observer said:


> Don't forget, Uber will deactivate you if they find out you are taking cash fares.
> 
> All you need is one customer to complain to Uber.


Not true in the slightest. You are an independent contractor. If you have a legit business, you are free to operate your business as long as you do so ethically and without breaking any state or local ordinances. I accept fares all the time from people I've met originally through Uber. If I am done with the fare and they ask for my phone number, there is absolutely nothing stopping me from giving it to them. If they call me later and ask if I can pick them up, there is nothing stopping me from charging my own rates. They made the choice to call me and request me directly. They had the choice to open the app and push the button, but they didn't. Uber on!


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## newsboy559 (Oct 14, 2014)

Walkersm said:


> Doing a little bit of searching it does seem Uber is legal in the state of VA and that means that local cities cannot impose any further ordinances on the service. Once the state takes over regulation the cities have to accept. I the state does not implement any regulations then each city is free to make up their own.
> 
> So on this issue of Off the clock rides. That is still illegal off the Uber system. For every legal ride you have to produce a waybill showing customer names, pick up locations and date, and insurance covering that ride. That being said most cops know squat about commercial enforcement and will not even know to ask for a waybill. If you get pulled over and say you work for Uber and your customers say they hired an uber that is all you will need to get you on your way. If you happen to gt a DOT inspector or a commercial vehicle inspector that pulls you over (usually in a sting operation) you will get the ticket and impound.


So please tell me... how does a cab driver produce a waybill showing customers names, locations, etc. for every customer he gives a ride to during the day? That's baloney.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

newsboy559 said:


> Not true in the slightest. You are an independent contractor. If you have a legit business, you are free to operate your business as long as you do so ethically and without breaking any state or local ordinances. I accept fares all the time from people I've met originally through Uber. If I am done with the fare and they ask for my phone number, there is absolutely nothing stopping me from giving it to them. If they call me later and ask if I can pick them up, there is nothing stopping me from charging my own rates. They made the choice to call me and request me directly. They had the choice to open the app and push the button, but they didn't. Uber on!


Technically you are correct. Though special attention needs to be paid to the part where you say not to break any state or local ordinances. If anything I would say Uber couldn't take issue with your business outside of the app so long as you weren't breaking any laws. However, they don't exactly need a reason to deactivate you. Your contract has no guarantee of duration or access. If Uber simply didn't like you were building your own business from their clients, I'm sure they would just make a reason up if they think they need one.


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## newsboy559 (Oct 14, 2014)

BostonBarry said:


> Seriously dude, are you just arguing to argue? Uber passengers are covered by Uber insurance. Personal passengers are covered by personal insurance. Some random idiot PAYING you for a ride outside of Uber is covered by NO INSURANCE. Is this so hard to understand? And if you think you can trust that some random schmuck who can't afford a cab or doesn't have a credit card will NEVER EVER sue you because they don't want free money then, as I said, enjoy your $17.


You are wrong. Random people ARE covered by your insurance if you have agreed to allow them in your vehicle. You don't know what you're talking about. Now, the insurance company could argue about some sort of cash transaction that prompted the allowance of a random person in your vehicle, but that's a different story. If so, the guy gave you gas money to cover your ride. Move along.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

newsboy559 said:


> Not true in the slightest. You are an independent contractor. If you have a legit business, you are free to operate your business as long as you do so ethically and without breaking any state or local ordinances. I accept fares all the time from people I've met originally through Uber. If I am done with the fare and they ask for my phone number, there is absolutely nothing stopping me from giving it to them. If they call me later and ask if I can pick them up, there is nothing stopping me from charging my own rates. They made the choice to call me and request me directly. They had the choice to open the app and push the button, but they didn't. Uber on!


"If you have a legit business..."
95% of UberX partners do not have a legit business. The other 5% are NYC and places like that which insist on TLC licenses.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

newsboy559 said:


> You are wrong. Random people ARE covered by your insurance if you have agreed to allow them in your vehicle. You don't know what you're talking about. Now, the insurance company could argue about some sort of cash transaction that prompted the allowance of a random person in your vehicle, but that's a different story. If so, the guy gave you gas money to cover your ride. Move along.


Did you miss the PAYING you part? Could you defraud your insurer by simply saying you were being a good samaritan and were not giving rides for cash? Yes. Would it be tough for the investigator to prove you accepted payment for transportation of this stranger? Yes. However, you getting away with this relies solely on a complete stranger (probably dead broke if they are looking for gypsy cabs) being willing to commit insurance fraud WITH you. What do you think the chances of that are?


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Did you miss the PAYING you part? Could you defraud your insurer by simply saying you were being a good samaritan and were not giving rides for cash? Yes. Would it be tough for the investigator to prove you accepted payment for transportation of this stranger? Yes. However, you getting away with this relies solely on a complete stranger (probably dead broke if they are looking for gypsy cabs) being willing to commit insurance fraud WITH you. What do you think the chances of that are?


Barry Barry barry.
Some folk just can't be edumicated.
You gave it the old BC try tho.
OP is thick.
My money is on the Terriers, go Northeastern.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> If Uber simply didn't like you were building your own business from their clients, I'm sure they would just make a reason up if they think they need one.


Your contract is similar to employment-at-will. Uber need not even "make up" a reason to de-activate anyone. The contract specifically gives Uber the right to terminate it for "no reason".

In an employement-at-will state, you do not need a reason to sack anyone. All that you need do is tell the employee that it is the decision of the Management of this business that he is no longer employed there. In the District of Columbia (which, oddly enough, is an "employment-at-will" jurisdiction), at least, if you fail to give a reason for dismissing an employee, you will have to pay for the first twenty-six weeks of his unemployment. Still, at times, it is cheaper to pay that than to risk a lawsuit. Even if the employer does prevail, the twenty-six weeks of unemployment will add up to far less than the legal bills to defend the termination.

When I was a company official, I fired more than one employee without giving that employee a reason. As most of the employees were minimum wage, it was cheaper to pay out the seven-thousand or so dollars than it was to pay a minimum twenty-thousand dollars in legal bills. If the employee had prevailed in a suit on whatever grounds, the penalties plus the legal bills would have been worse. I added a "confirm or deny" policy, as well. I thought it funny that the company did not have one before I became an official of it.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> Your contract is similar to employment-at-will. Uber need not even "make up" a reason to de-activate anyone. The contract specifically gives Uber the right to terminate it for "no reason".
> 
> In an employement-at-will state, you do not need a reason to sack anyone. All that you need do is tell the employee that it is the decision of the Management of this business that he is no longer employed there. In the District of Columbia (which, oddly enough, is an "employment-at-will" jurisdiction), at least, if you fail to give a reason for dismissing an employee, you will have to pay for the first twenty-six weeks of his unemployment. Still, at times, it is cheaper to pay that than to risk a lawsuit. Even if the employer does prevail, the twenty-six weeks of unemployment will add up to far less than the legal bills to defend the termination.
> 
> When I was a company official, I fired more than one employee without giving that employee a reason. As most of the employees were minimum wage, it was cheaper to pay out the seven-thousand or so dollars than it was to pay a minimum twenty-thousand dollars in legal bills. If the employee had prevailed in a suit on whatever grounds, the penalties plus the legal bills would have been worse. I added a "confirm or deny" policy, as well. I thought it funny that the company did not have one before I became an official of it.


I had a great way to terminate cabbies who drove my cabs, I'd send the following text message:
"John,
Management has restructured your contract. Going forward, beginning tomorrow, you will no longer be on commission. 
As a lease driver, management will expect $70 in advance of every 12 hour shift, with a $140 security deposit to go into escrow by the end of your first week.
'If these terms are amenable to you, we will see you before tomorrow's shift.
Sincerely. .."


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

^^^^Is this ITOA Boston or your company in Charlotte?


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> ^^^^Is this ITOA Boston or your company in Charlotte?


My company in waltham, ma.
Boy I WISH I had been an owner in ITOA, theoretically I'd have capital left over


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

And I opted out of trying to start a real cab company in Charlotte. Down to one cab, maybe forever.


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## Wil_Iam_Fuber'd (Aug 17, 2015)

Scenicruiser said:


> Maybe...but usually that means they would rather we all got together for a heated discussion and pot luck in thier living room.
> If you think it's ok to *********...bring chips. Cab drivers that think all drivers that uber are gypsy cabs brings dip. If you think ubers insurance will cover you and protect your assets...bring booze. Tues night is usually slow. Does that work for everybody?


Can we make it a Fondue...I'm in!


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## Wil_Iam_Fuber'd (Aug 17, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Barry Barry barry.
> Some folk just can't be edumicated.
> You gave it the old BC try tho.
> OP is thick.
> My money is on the Terriers, go Northeastern.


And this is exactly so. Now, Newsboy believes he is operating legally, and maybe he is. Without researching the laws in Wichita KA, idk. Bottom line, it's his risk to assume. And the customer who knowingly shares in that risk. They're both adults. Let the chips fall where they may, doesn't affect us in the slightest.


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## Scenicruiser (Oct 17, 2014)

Wil_Iam_Fuber'd said:


> Can we make it a Fondue...I'm in!


Sure, in the past we assigned fondue to uber black and suv guys...but they would just hang outside the party and eavesdrop while peeping through the windows. I would say "plus" drivers bring fondue...but that would oversaturate the op's home in melted cheese and such. I know...drivers that claim gas as thier only expense can bring the fondue. That way...we only have to chip in for sterno and stick them for the fondue ingredients by reminding them that they would have to eat anyways so it's not an expense


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> My company in waltham, ma.
> Boy I WISH I had been an owner in ITOA, theoretically I'd have capital left over





TwoFiddyMile said:


> And I opted out of trying to start a real cab company in Charlotte. Down to one cab, maybe forever.


You drove in the Western Suburbs. I had thought that you had mentioned ITOA Boston, so that is why I had asked. I was a driver, dispatcher, voting member and a Director of the old I.T.O.A. in Washington.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> You drove in the Western Suburbs. I had thought that you had mentioned ITOA Boston, so that is why I had asked. I was a driver, dispatcher, voting member and a Director of the old I.T.O.A. in Washington.


Drove for ITOA Boston at least 4 years of my life, 2 as a shift driver and 2 leasing a medallion (don't ever lease a medallion, better one should mine coal).
Most interesting thing about the TeeOh garage on Albany st was the endless 80 year old game of gin rummy. Was an illegal money game. Gas jockey got crap pay but was allowed to get half the rake from the table and split the game to two tables if he saw the opportunity. 
Rumor was the old ITOA was as mobbed up as could be, so someone had a happy vice cop in his pocket and the game didn't get busted up til about 5 years ago.
MY company was in Waltham. Still is, I don't check up on it cause it hurts to look- it's like I sold my baby.


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## Wil_Iam_Fuber'd (Aug 17, 2015)

Scenicruiser said:


> Sure, in the past we assigned fondue to uber black and suv guys...but they would just hang outside the party and eavesdrop while peeping through the windows. I would say "plus" drivers bring fondue...but that would oversaturate the op's home in melted cheese and such. I know...drivers that claim gas as thier only expense can bring the fondue. That way...we only have to chip in for sterno and stick them for the fondue ingredients by reminding them that they would have to eat anyways so it's not an expense


And that ladies and gents is how to make a point! LMAO.


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## Uber-Doober (Dec 16, 2014)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok I get your point, but that's like worst worst worst worst worst case scenario. About as likely as me winning the lottery, soooo....


^^^
It's like the analogy of somebody getting struck by lightening... but I know somebody who was struck three times in 10 years.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Uber-Doober said:


> ^^^
> It's like the analogy of somebody getting struck by lightening... but I know somebody who was struck three times in 10 years.


Well... at least he was able to GET struck by lightning 3 times. My granduncle only got hit once.


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## forqalso (Jun 1, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Did you miss the PAYING you part? Could you defraud your insurer by simply saying you were being a good samaritan and were not giving rides for cash? Yes. Would it be tough for the investigator to prove you accepted payment for transportation of this stranger? Yes. However, you getting away with this relies solely on a complete stranger (probably dead broke if they are looking for gypsy cabs) being willing to commit insurance fraud WITH you. What do you think the chances of that are?


You would be relying on a complete stranger with ZERO liability unless he lies for you.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

observer said:


> Well... at least he was able to GET struck by lightning 3 times. My granduncle only got hit once.


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## Don Oldenburg (Jul 17, 2015)

Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> On the flip side, ask if they have a valid c card. Have them Download the app right then and there and be on your way.


Good advise! Take the moment or two and help them download the application, USE YOUR REFERRAL CODE so you get the $5 boost.... And your likely going to get more than you would have in cash -- without the risks.

On the OTHER FLIP-SIDE. what would the legalities be if you had a second phone with the apps on it -- configured with an unrelated account to your driver account. Couldn't you request yourself as the driver for them, collect the cash, and everything goes through uber/lyft? I'm sure there are just as many legalities with this... best to keep away from it doing any type of "Hailing" pickups.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Don Oldenburg said:


> On the OTHER FLIP-SIDE. what would the legalities be if you had a second phone with the apps on it -- configured with an unrelated account to your driver account. Couldn't you request yourself as the driver for them, collect the cash, and everything goes through uber/lyft? I'm sure there are just as many legalities with this... best to keep away from it doing any type of "Hailing" pickups.


I think the insurance implications would be too risky. You get in an accident, and insurance covers you and another you, rather than the pax.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Don Oldenburg said:


> Good advise! Take the moment or two and help them download the application, USE YOUR REFERRAL CODE so you get the $5 boost.... And your likely going to get more than you would have in cash -- without the risks.
> 
> On the OTHER FLIP-SIDE. what would the legalities be if you had a second phone with the apps on it -- configured with an unrelated account to your driver account. Couldn't you request yourself as the driver for them, collect the cash, and everything goes through uber/lyft? I'm sure there are just as many legalities with this... best to keep away from it doing any type of "Hailing" pickups.


I would think that might slip you past a DOT inspector or cop, but if the accident happened I'm certain the insurance investigators would use it as an excuse. If it was all fine and dandy, I imagine the rarity of the situation would probably not justify the expense of separate phone cost.


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## Don Oldenburg (Jul 17, 2015)

JimS said:


> I think the insurance implications would be too risky. You get in an accident, and insurance covers you and another you, rather than the pax.


You may be right, but what difference is it than if Sally-Mae using her app for her and her 2 friends? does that mean if there was an accident her two friends wouldn't be covered? Or when Mr. Johnson requests an uber to take his babysitter home? Mr. Johnson isn't even in the car. Would babysitter be covered if there was an accident. Of course the obvious difference is driver may or may not know the people that are riding under the riders account. But I see this happen when guys bring home "tricks" from the bars, etc-- they don't know their hookup for the night any more or less than they would know the phantom rider... LOL. again, I'm not condoning any of this... just playing devils advocate here...


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

I think the insurance is the issue because you are both passenger and driver. I know they cover the pax even if the user orders a ride for someone else and the user isn't actually riding. But when claims handler sees you ordered the ride and you gave the ride, I think that would be something they would use to get around having to pay the claim. Might not work, but probably cause a lot of hassle. Still pretty sure the expense wouldn't justify the potential profit.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Don Oldenburg said:


> Good advise! Take the moment or two and help them download the application, USE YOUR REFERRAL CODE so you get the $5 boost.... And your likely going to get more than you would have in cash -- without the risks.
> 
> On the OTHER FLIP-SIDE. what would the legalities be if you had a second phone with the apps on it -- configured with an unrelated account to your driver account. Couldn't you request yourself as the driver for them, collect the cash, and everything goes through uber/lyft? I'm sure there are just as many legalities with this... best to keep away from it doing any type of "Hailing" pickups.


Illegal, fraud. It's called Brushing.

It's also known as Uber China


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

peasantgirl said:


> I was asking if I was breaking any laws?


Yes.
First and foremost is insurance fraud, (if you have insurance but are using your car for a commercial, 'for-hire' purpose) which is a felony.
Actually, it's not - it's more complicated than that because the felony doesn't occur until you try to collect on a claim... but the point is that since you are doing for-hire rides without proper insurance coverage (ie: your insurance is null and void), *you are breaking your state's law by driving without insurance*.

Depending on your local laws, you may also be breaking a city or state law regarding "street hailing" of rides. There are laws in place in many metro areas to protect consumers from 'gypsy' (unregulated) taxis.


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## JaxBeachDriver (Nov 27, 2014)

peasantgirl said:


> Ok I get your point, but that's like worst worst worst worst worst case scenario. About as likely as me winning the lottery, soooo....


Actually, you're at far greater chance of being rear ended or plowed down by a drunk (or sober) driver, especially after the bar lets out. You may be an amazing driver, but someone could smash into you while running from the cops or having just passed out behind the wheel.


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## Nooa (Dec 30, 2014)

In Boston you can get arrested & car impounded. 
Boston PD used to set up sting operations. When they see actual limos lv plates they will ask you to take them few blocks for $20 bucks cash if you say yes they were arresting the drivers & towing the cars. Had a friend who had this happen @ symphony hall in pouring rain he worked for big company & was driving their car. Let's just say he was arrested, fined, pay for tow , fired . After I heard that I would never do that.


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## Nooa (Dec 30, 2014)

They're setting up stings in NY just like in Boston

*496 Uber cars seized amid crackdown on illegal pickups*
http://nypost.com/2015/06/16/hundreds-of-uber-cars-seized-for-illegal-pickups/


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> Here in LA there have sting operations targeting people just like you. Now I dont know about the laws in your state, but here your car gets impounded and you spend the night in jail. Now this may never happen to you BUT ! Is that want you want?
> 
> Youngsters think its so cute to do this, actually there pathetic. Plus the fact when they puke in your car then what ? No cleaning fee for you . Always have your doors locked.
> 
> On the flip side, ask if they have a valid c card. Have them Download the app right then and there and be on your way.


yea I guess they do think it's cute, that explains why they beg me to take a cash offer despite me ignoring their request 10 times in a row and still ignoring as I have my window down trying to locate a legitimate fare and I'm being harassed by random idiots who think I'll take anybody because I'm an Uber driver. THINK AGAIN, **** HEADS. I actually enjoy completely ignoring them.


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## Uber-Doober (Dec 16, 2014)

Nooa said:


> In Boston you can get arrested & car impounded.
> Boston PD used to set up sting operations. When they see actual limos lv plates they will ask you to take them few blocks for $20 bucks cash if you say yes they were arresting the drivers & towing the cars. Had a friend who had this happen @ symphony hall in pouring rain he worked for big company & was driving their car. Let's just say he was arrested, fined, pay for tow , fired . After I heard that I would never do that.


^^^
But, before you heard it you would? 
Not is that illegal, but it's also stealing from your company. 
Several times a year I hear of guys getting canned for picking up passengers at hotels, or anywhere for that matter for a few bucks in their pockets.... thinking that they are some hotshot and gonna pull a scam with the car belonging to the company. 
My company gives tremendous benefits in terms of medical and vacation.... and I'm gonna jeopardize that for 20 bux?
Especially when the next ride is probably going to give me 20 bux anyway. 
And in this little town, the word spreads like wildfire to the other companies through the grapevine, and all the supervisors know all the other supervisors and so on. 
Was it really worth it?


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## Nooa (Dec 30, 2014)

^^ No never. That guy only did it because it was pouring rain & he said he actually felt bad. 
If I had actually felt bad I would have said ok CANNOT charge you but I'll give you the ride anyways.
I am over 20 years in limo bus. $20 bucks might sound like a lot to uber drivers but actual chauffeur make more than Uber drivers & they're using company cars & they get nice cash tips. You will never get $100 cash tip for just going to the airport from the Four Seasons


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## gprimr1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Isn't that accepting street hails?


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## Nooa (Dec 30, 2014)

gprimr1 said:


> Isn't that accepting street hails?


Not if you don't charge them. You can drive people all day long for free. Oh it's like working for Uber X


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Rex8976 said:


> Thanks to Peek-A-Boo insurance, no ping, no coverage.
> 
> Not to put too fine a point on it, but with no ping you are just another schlep out for a ride.
> 
> ...


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Nooa said:


> They're setting up stings in NY just like in Boston
> 
> *496 Uber cars seized amid crackdown on illegal pickups*
> http://nypost.com/2015/06/16/hundreds-of-uber-cars-seized-for-illegal-pickups/


POST #:138/Nooa: Bostonian Bison
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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Scenicruiser said:


> Maybe...but usually that means they would rather we all got together for a heated discussion and pot luck in thier living room.
> If you think it's ok to *********...bring chips. Cab drivers that think all drivers that uber are gypsy cabs brings dip. If you think ubers insurance will cover you and protect your assets...bring booze. Tues night is usually slow. Does that work for everybody?


POST # 102/Scenicruiser: C H O R T L E !
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## Uber 1 (Oct 6, 2015)

Walkersm said:


> It's no problem as long as you got $25,000 on hand to defend yourself in a wrongful death lawsuit when that college kid you killed family comes after you for $5 million in his future earnings. You should get done paying that off through garnishments when you are about 90 or so. Uber On.


Having read this thread and seen all the creative "work arounds" I'll throw one out for this situation...

In crime TV shows if a cop shoots and kills an unarmed perp, sometimes the bad cop will put a gun(or other weapon) in the hands of the previously unarmed dead person and make it appear that it was a justified self defense shooting.

I suppose a driver could play off this.....If an accident results in a dead pax and assuming you are still mobile you could put a weapon in the hands of the now dead pax (or at least somewhere in the vehicle but at least with some pax finger prints on the weapon).....then in theory you could claim they basically carjacked you....(OK the other thing that comes to mind if they have video of you letting them into your car willingly would be that you were just being a nice guy helping out a person in need for free).....wow this could get complicated fast!

I suppose the moral of the story is do some preplanning if you want to try to skirt the system....Uber did and they are worth BILLIONS! ;-O

Andy


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Wil_Iam_Fuber'd said:


> How silly are you? Seriously.


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Barry Barry barry.
> Some folk just can't be edumicated.
> You gave it the old BC try tho.
> OP is thick.
> My money is on the Terriers, go Northeastern.


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

JaxBeachDriver said:


> Actually, you're at far greater chance of being rear ended or plowed down by a drunk (or sober) driver, especially after the bar lets out. You may be an amazing driver, but someone could smash into you while running from the cops or having just passed out behind the wheel.


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Have you guys arguing noticed the original poster went off to Google long ago?


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