# Uber loses a 'precedential' victory, and some New York state drivers win 'employee' status



## KevinH (Jul 13, 2014)

https://www.politico.com/states/new...york-state-drivers-win-employee-status-518782
In what worker advocates are calling a substantial victory that could impact Uber drivers statewide, the New York State labor review board has made a final determination that three former Uber drivers were Uber employees for the purposes of unemployment insurance.

The finding applies to the drivers in question, as well as all "similarly situated" drivers.

The issue of unemployment insurance, while seemingly arcane, underscores a pivotal question for the global gig economy: Are the people driving for Uber or delivering coffee for Postmates independent contractors or are they employees with benefits like unemployment insurance?

New York state now appears closer to having an official position, one that Uber fought hard to forestall. The company has exhausted all options for challenging that decision within the confines of the labor department.

"We won and they lost," said New York Taxi Workers Alliance Executive Director Bhairavi Desai, in an interview on Wednesday.

The Taxi Workers Alliance believes the decision will be "broadly precedential," and creates a new "safety net" for a beleaguered workforce.

David Raff, a longtime employment law attorney, says that's a "fair interpretation."

"It will be interesting to see if Uber now starts to develop a new model, or wants to contest this, or accepts the fact that as far as New York is concerned, [drivers] will be employees in most instances" for the purposes of unemployment insurance, Raff said.

If Uber wants to further contest the Board's findings, it will have to do so in state court.

In a statement, Uber spokeswoman Alix Anfang didn't reveal the company's plans, though she did downplay the decision's significance.

"We disagree with this ruling and we are reviewing our options," she said. "We are confident that the ruling uniquely applies to the three claimants because many of the practices cited in the opinion never applied to one or more of the claimants, are no longer in place, or never existed at all."

"Uber has the right to appeal this decision," said Labor Department spokeswoman Jill Aurora. "If they do not appeal the decision, it will become final and Uber will be required to make UI contributions for these, and other similarly situated drivers. If Uber fails to make such contributions, the Department's procedure would be to conduct an investigation to determine the amounts of contributions that are due as a result of this decision."

Uber's workforce in just New York City numbers more than 65,000, and is growing.

A recent city-commissioned report found that, "Uber alone would be the largest for-profit private employer in New York City - if Uber drivers were classified as employees rather than independent contractors."

The company is also known to have heavy turnover. Should Uber now have to pay hundreds of dollars a week in unemployment insurance to deactivated drivers, it would face a heavy financial burden.

It was on July 12 that Unemployment Insurance Appeal Board member Randall Douglas, affirming a 2017 administrative judge's decision and the Labor Department's findings*, *found that "the claimants and other similarly situated [Uber] drivers were covered employees for purposes of unemployment insurance."

He was ruling on the cases of three former Uber drivers, and while he did not define "similarly situated," the drivers' cases were sufficiently distinct for advocates, and Raff, to conclude that the decision's impacts will be far-reaching.

"It's huge," Desai said. "It's really significant, because it's the first bona fide safety net for drivers in this economy ... We now have a decision that reflects the official position of the state, one that the state has to defend and execute."

This decision caps a saga that began in 2016, when former Uber drivers began to notice a curious phenomenon. Their claims for unemployment insurance were taking months, not three to six weeks, as was typical.

A labor department official told one former driver, via email, that claims like his were "under executive review, which means the Dept of Labor is not making the decision whether or not this employment is covered. Your claim will remain pending until such time as a determination has been made."

The delays spawned a federal suit.

Last summer, an administrative judge found that "the overriding evidence establishes that Uber exercised sufficient supervision, direction, and control" over the lives of three drivers so as to create an "employer-employee relationship."

Uber appealed, and then, 11 months later, sought to rescind its appeal, an unusual move that sparked bemusement among employment-law types who theorized the company was fearful the decision could have wide-ranging effects on its model.

It evinced a "disdain for the system" and a willingness to "waste everyone's time and resources," Raff said.

"In the interest of justice," the board denied Uber's request to withdraw its appeal, and rejected its argument.

"We started off with the claims from the drivers gathering dust in some corner under 'executive review,' to now, with the drivers being victorious at the highest level of the agency," Desai said.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Good. Hopefully it spreads to other states


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

You guys don't understand how huge this will be. 

1. Uber will be forced to worry about deactivating drivers which will make them less likely to do so
2. Uber will be forced to worry about the amount of drivers they got driving which will cause them to limit the amount of drivers driving which will benefit those drivers that drive full time = less ants on the road


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

First they'll lose NY. Then California.
Then the Fat Lady Sings.


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## Drivincrazy (Feb 14, 2016)

I'm thinking the big dogs at Uber who stand to gain big when Uber IPO's will be bailing out quickly for rapidly reducing amounts. This should be interesting to monitor. In my opinion, this is a bomb on the Uber business model. Uber's disdain for drivers could very well be their undoing.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

heynow321 said:


> Good. Hopefully it spreads to other states


Between CA and NY, that means 1 in 6 drivers are now being viewed as an employee in the United States.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

heynow321 said:


> Good. Hopefully it spreads to other states


Yep, get ready for minimum wage plus $.17 per mile. Mandatory drug testing, strict schedules, mandatory pickups in gridlocked traffic, in undesirable locations and undesirable customers. Get ready for mandatory performance reviews, mandatory vehicle quality reviews and mandatory dress codes. Get ready to help every Walmart customer carry those grocery bags up 3 flights of stairs and tips can now become strongly discouraged by Uber. Be careful what you wish for.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

Drivincrazy said:


> I'm thinking the big dogs at Uber who stand to gain big when Uber IPO's will be bailing out quickly for rapidly reducing amounts. This should be interesting to monitor. In my opinion, this is a bomb on the Uber business model. Uber's disdain for drivers could very well be their undoing.


 I find it absolutely hilarious. If they had just kept rates around two bucks a mile and marketed themselves as a premier and much more convenient taxi company instead of making up this fake term rideshare, everyone would be happy. drivers would be happy and loyal and more experienced because they wouldn't quit after one month. Passengers would be happy because of the nicer newer cleaner cars and non-repey drivers. But no, instead they had to go after the bus rider crowd and now nobody is happy and everybody wants to see Uber fail with the exception of the losers who should be on the bus



SEAL Team 5 said:


> Yep, get ready for minimum wage plus $.17 per mile. Mandatory drug testing, strict schedules, mandatory pickups in gridlocked traffic, in undesirable locations and undesirable customers. Get ready for mandatory performance reviews, mandatory vehicle quality reviews and mandatory dress codes. Get ready to help every Walmart customer carry those grocery bags up 3 flights of stairs and tips can now become strongly discouraged by Uber. Be careful what you wish for.


Yeah except for the part where nobody would drive under those conditions


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Yep, get ready for minimum wage plus $.17 per mile. Mandatory drug testing, strict schedules, mandatory pickups in gridlocked traffic, in undesirable locations and undesirable customers. Get ready for mandatory performance reviews, mandatory vehicle quality reviews and mandatory dress codes. Get ready to help every Walmart customer carry those grocery bags up 3 flights of stairs and tips can now become strongly discouraged by Uber. Be careful what you wish for.


First of all, Uber's too greedy and cheap for drug testing.

Schedules? We already have them with Power Zones, Quests, Boosts, and blah, blah, blah.

Minimum-wage? That would be a nice change.

Mandatory pick-ups? True.

Gridlocked traffic is out of Uber/Lyft's control.

Undesirable locations and customers? Already happening. I never "make the choice" to drive into the ghetto, but someone takes me there and I'm forced to go, otherwise it's destination discrimination, further destitute, and before you know it I'm selling myself for a quarter (or anything below minimum-wage/what I'm earning now).

Performance reviews? For a million people? The only tangible remark is, "You drove this year. Thank you. No raise. Sorry."

Mandatory vehicle reviews. Already happens once a year with a teenager at Pep Boys who goes, "Mmmhhmmm, mmmmmhhmmmm, pass." But did you wanna check the brak-? "Pass." Or your local Sprint store. You can buy a burner phone there, too. Two birds.

Dress codes? People earning minimum-wage can't afford suits, so the jeans, shorts or dress you're wearing is fine.

Help with groceries? That would likely end in a lot of workman's comp claims, so don't bet on it.

Tips are already strongly discouraged by Uber, and the glitchy feature is usually not there in the passenger app. Uber's working on this... give them at least another year before asking the status, at which time their answer will be, "We're working on this, you fools!"

The way I see it, not much changes when you become an Uber employee. And I think most drivers would do the same thing they are doing now if things get bad.. quit. Its a right you always have, you know... Bless You, America!

Also, I wish for nothing in this world - that just leads to expectation and disappointment. Go with the rhythm of life and dance 

Ole!


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

You guys get Performance reviews from pax every 17 minutes.


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## just_me (Feb 20, 2017)

Interesting decision, another answer to the question: ''are Uber/Lyft drivers contractors?' has been answered. Add this to the California State Supreme Court's ruling that Uber/Lyft and other 'gig economy jobs' can no longer simply say: ''their not employees'' (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...ce-uber-lyft-to-convert-drivers-to-employees/), and it seems we're getting closer to a big change in the gig economy.

Edit: Europe has already ruled that Uber drivers are taxi drivers (i.e. employees).



uberdriverfornow said:


> You guys don't understand how huge this will be.
> 
> 1. Uber will be forced to worry about deactivating drivers which will make them less likely to do so
> 2. Uber will be forced to worry about the amount of drivers they got driving which will cause them to limit the amount of drivers driving which will benefit those drivers that drive full time = less ants on the road


Uber/Lyft could also restrict the business they send to the 'not so desirable drivers' through their apps too, with a few changes in the app code. Easy peasy.


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## fif (Jul 16, 2018)

or they could just charge
$11,$12,$13,$14,15 per ride
driver gets minimum $10
$1.50 per mile .10 per mile each additional pax auto orders xl when 5+
.30 a minute

as NATIONWIDE minimums

national holidays auto 2.0 surge
.20 per mile hazard pay 10pm-6am

and 96% of drivers succeed instead of fail & dont care about this employee vs. ic booboo because all drivers want is to be paid legally & fairly for EVERY trip like a real job instead of the game they turned into for no reason but to coerce free unpaid labor for millions using exploited humans for their ponzi instead of investor money

ignore & cancel all you want but i know my acceptance rate would go from 10 % like it has been 2+ years to over 90 & id rarely cancel but anything under $10 for 2+ years is all 1 stars, unmatch requests, games, cancels & 1 star service period i treat the passenger like im paid...

oh well

$1-4 on 15+ million rides a day would be enough profit for most humans to be more than satisfied with but the evil bunch at uber prefer to lose $9000 a minute they prefer to employ lawyers instead of the millions providing the cash flow they throw in a fire pit everyday

but we both know theyll never treat drivers like human beings


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Is the writing on the wall?

When the rates climb the daily riders disappear gutting the market.

Uber raising the rates for employee benifits... that could kill them,

A death spiral of having to pay drivers more and losing customers... followed by more unemployment..


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## ratethis (Jan 7, 2017)

uberdriverfornow said:


> _*2. Uber will be forced to worry about the amount of drivers they got driving which will cause them to limit the amount of drivers driving which will benefit those drivers that drive full time = less ants on the road*_


^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^
That's what I was thinking.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Is the writing on the wall?
> 
> When the rates climb the daily riders disappear gutting the market.
> 
> ...


I've seen about a 10 to 15% bump in business in the past month. People complaining about Uber.
This is July in a banking town. You normally don't see a bump in July.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

In a competitive market when the cost of an item increases the demand for that item decreases. When compensation increases more will attempt to be compensated. So, with higher prices to riders, there will be fewer riders. With higher pay to drivers there will be more drivers. The questions should be, "how many fewer riders?" And, "how many more drivers?"

Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. That's $0.1208 per minute. Will drivers be paid for dead time or only after they accept a ping?

There is no federal law that I'm aware of that says employers have to offer mileage reimbursement for business use of a driver's car. 

If Uber only has to pay $0.12 per minute between ping acceptance and rider drop off and not reimburse for mileage, I'm not sure its a loss for Uber. If they do reimburse for mileage, it doesn't have to be at the IRS rate. It could be the average cost to drive a TNC type car (~$0.30/mile). It would be up to the driver to recoup the difference at tax time. Of course, withholding estimated taxes would be standard.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

bsliv said:


> In a competitive market when the cost of an item increases the demand for that item decreases. When compensation increases more will attempt to be compensated. So, with higher prices to riders, there will be fewer riders. With higher pay to drivers there will be more drivers. The questions should be, "how many fewer riders?" And, "how many more drivers?"
> 
> Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. That's $0.1208 per minute. Will drivers be paid for dead time or only after they accept a ping?
> 
> ...


I applied for a JOB with a crappy limo company about 4 months ago.
It's a JOB. They pocket the fare and give you the tip. If the tips don't add up to minimum wage, the company is forced by THE LONG ARM OF THE LAW to make up the difference.


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## Uberyouber (Jan 16, 2017)

Yea watching this thing crash and burn is going to be fun.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

bsliv said:


> In a competitive market when the cost of an item increases the demand for that item decreases. When compensation increases more will attempt to be compensated. So, with higher prices to riders, there will be fewer riders. With higher pay to drivers there will be more drivers. The questions should be, "how many fewer riders?" And, "how many more drivers?"
> 
> Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. That's $0.1208 per minute. Will drivers be paid for dead time or only after they accept a ping?
> 
> ...


There is federal law stating that employees must make min wage free and clear of all work related deductions. Which means they have to have a taxable income equaling min wage.

Meaning 12c a minute plus 53.5c per every single mile driven.

Plus "on call" time can (but not nessisarily) fall under pay as well.

If an employee CANT use their on call time productively(ie go home and do something) on call time can be forced as paid as a well.

BUT

In a few states tips CAN (depending on the state) count towards min wage.


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## [email protected] (Mar 15, 2017)

Quote:[Last summer, an administrative judge found that "the overriding evidence establishes that Uber exercised sufficient supervision, direction, and control" over the lives of three drivers so as to create an "employer-employee relationship."]

Hard to claim we are independent contractors when Uber is constantly looking to control us.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

heynow321 said:


> Yeah except for the part where nobody would drive under those conditions


I said the same exact thing back in Jan '15 when Uber X rates dropped to below $1/mile. Boy was I wrong.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

bsliv said:


> In a competitive market when the cost of an item increases the demand for that item decreases. When compensation increases more will attempt to be compensated. So, with higher prices to riders, there will be fewer riders. With higher pay to drivers there will be more drivers. The questions should be, "how many fewer riders?" And, "how many more drivers?"
> 
> Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. That's $0.1208 per minute. Will drivers be paid for dead time or only after they accept a ping?
> 
> ...


1. The minimum wage applies to all time you spent "working or waiting" while on the clock (app). So it applies to waiting around time as well as all driving time.

2. The minimum wage has to be the amount an employee receives AFTER all expenses are paid (car, gas, mileage, etc.) Employers are not permitted to deduct anything from the minimum wage other than taxes.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> 1. The minimum wage applies to all time you spent "working or waiting" while on the clock (app). So it applies to waiting around time as well as all driving time.


I'd imagine Uber has tons of data on demand for locations and times. I'd imagine a lot of split shifts. I'd imagine a lot of drivers not liking their assigned shifts and locations.



Bob Reynolds said:


> 2. The minimum wage has to be the amount an employee receives AFTER all expenses are paid (car, gas, mileage, etc.) Employers are not permitted to deduct anything from the minimum wage other than taxes.


The IRS rate of $0.535 per mile is for the average $32,000 new car, driven for 15,000 miles per year for five years. The typical TNC car is not new. It may exceed 15,000 miles per year by a considerable margin. The $0.535 includes financing, taxes, and insurance. A TNC shouldn't be responsible for a person's financing costs. They shouldn't be responsible for high taxes in an individual state. They already pay for insurance. My Bugatti costs $18 per mile to operate. What per mile rate would be appropriate?

Uber was able to expand and keep pricing fairly low due to the huge supply of drivers. A lot of those drivers took advantage of creating their own schedule to fit their life's situation. Without that flexibility, a lot of drivers will stop driving.

Some drivers report making a lot more than minimum wage. Now they will get minimum wage. That will make some drivers stop driving.

Even at $15 per hour and a full 40 hour week, that's only $600 a week in gross. There will be no mileage deduction since the TNC already reimbursed the driver. That means taxes will be paid, either taken out of the weekly check or at the end of the year.

TNC's will have to have a human resources department. Scheduling will be time consuming. Paying taxes will be expensive. The TNC's will pass the cost to the riders. That will reduce the number of riders.

More expenses for the TNC's is a loss to the TNC's.

Fewer riders due to the higher cost is a loss to the riders.

Fewer drivers due to the loss of flexibility, lower income to some, and limits by the TNC is a loss to drivers.

Less competition means a win for taxi companies but not necessarily for taxi drivers.

TNC's lose, riders lose, and a large amount of drivers lose.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

bsliv said:


> I'd imagine Uber has tons of data on demand for locations and times. I'd imagine a lot of split shifts. I'd imagine a lot of drivers not liking their assigned shifts and locations.
> 
> The IRS rate of $0.535 per mile is for the average $32,000 new car, driven for 15,000 miles per year for five years. The typical TNC car is not new. It may exceed 15,000 miles per year by a considerable margin. The $0.535 includes financing, taxes, and insurance. A TNC shouldn't be responsible for a person's financing costs. They shouldn't be responsible for high taxes in an individual state. They already pay for insurance. My Bugatti costs $18 per mile to operate. What per mile rate would be appropriate?
> 
> ...


The IRS doesn't care if you have a $2000 junker or a $100,000 Luxury vehicle. The IRS says is costs 54.5 cents a mile to operate your vehicle for business. That is the cost. You do not get a choice to decide if it is higher or lower. That is the rate that every state and federal agency will use. That will include courts as well. It will not be higher or lower. If you have a problem with this number then I suggest you take it up with the IRS.

Quit trying to make excuses for Lyft and Uber.

When you have a business in this country and you have people doing work for you: those people are required to make at least the minimum wage. You can't just call everyone an independent contractor and ignore wage and hour laws, tax laws, etc.

Lyft and Uber have a wonderful business idea. Now they need to price their service to cover the costs of providing that service and be able to pay all necessary expenses including driver costs and vehicle costs. If they can't do that then they need to shut down and go out of business and let other businesses come in that will do this.

Before Lyft and Uber came, other businesses did provide this service. If Lyft and Uber leave then other businesses will still provide this service. Hopefully, they won't be so stupid as to not charge enough to cover their costs.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> The IRS doesn't care if you have a $2000 junker or a $100,000 Luxury vehicle. The IRS says is costs 54.5 cents a mile to operate your vehicle for business. That is the cost. You do not get a choice to decide if it is higher or lower. That is the rate that every state and federal agency will use. That will include courts as well. It will not be higher or lower. If you have a problem with this number then I suggest you take it up with the IRS.


I have no problem with the number. It is what it is. It is not the cost for me to operate my car. It is not the cost for anyone to operate their car. It was determined by an independent company that the IRS contracted with to determine the average cost of a new car, driven for 5 years at 15,000 miles per year. It is not the average cost to drive a car for a TNC. A TNC will provide commercial insurance. They should not reimburse a driver for the driver's personal insurance. A TNC should not be required to reimburse a driver for finance costs on a $32,000 car. A TNC should not be required to reimburse a driver for the property taxes the driver may or may not have. A TNC should not be required to reimburse a driver for depreciation at the rate for a new $32,000 car.

Do you know the IRS deduction for moving expenses is $0.18 per mile? Do you know how they calculated that number?



Bob Reynolds said:


> Quit trying to make excuses for Lyft and Uber.


Where did this come from? I'm not making excuses for anyone. I never mentioned Lyft. I mentioned Uber only as an example of a large TNC.



Bob Reynolds said:


> When you have a business in this country and you have people doing work for you: those people are required to make at least the minimum wage. You can't just call everyone an independent contractor and ignore wage and hour laws, tax laws, etc.


Legally, you are correct. Economically, this is wrong.



Bob Reynolds said:


> Lyft and Uber have a wonderful business idea. Now they need to price their service to cover the costs of providing that service and be able to pay all necessary expenses including driver costs and vehicle costs. If they can't do that then they need to shut down and go out of business and let other businesses come in that will do this.


They do have a good business idea. Let's make them change it for the worse. TNC's lose with employees. Drivers lose with employees. And more importantly, riders lose with employees. One article I read on the subject from ars.com quoted a taxi organization as applauding the ruling. Does anyone think a taxi organization has anyone's best interest in mind (other than taxis)?

If I run a business and offer a contract and several accept my offer, am I responsible for their business decisions? No! If my contractors can't manage their costs or produce enough gross income, its on them. I don't supply the tools, motivation, or skill.



Bob Reynolds said:


> Before Lyft and Uber came, other businesses did provide this service. If Lyft and Uber leave then other businesses will still provide this service. Hopefully, they won't be so stupid as to not charge enough to cover their costs.


The other businesses were called taxi companies. Very few want to go back to the way it was.

I am not making excuses. I am making predictions. If drivers are employees, it won't be long before TNC's and taxis are indistinguishable. A free market will voluntarily allocate resources to where they are most productive. Government regulations force allocations to what feels good to the voting public. Feel good laws seldom work well.

If one wants to be an employee, drive a cab. Enough of the nanny nonsense.


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## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

Massive game changer


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## Friendly Jack (Nov 17, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Yep, get ready for minimum wage plus $.17 per mile. Mandatory drug testing, strict schedules, mandatory pickups in gridlocked traffic, in undesirable locations and undesirable customers. Get ready for mandatory performance reviews, mandatory vehicle quality reviews and mandatory dress codes. Get ready to help every Walmart customer carry those grocery bags up 3 flights of stairs and tips can now become strongly discouraged by Uber. Be careful what you wish for.


It seems to me that you are saying we should get ready for the end of Uber.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

You can't just start a business and not follow the laws. If Uber and Lyft can't make money by running their business and paying ALL workers at least the minimum wage, just like every other business, then Uber and Lyft should not be in business. 


We don't give profit making businesses a pass on this for any reason whatsoever. It doesn't matter if someone is willing to work for .50 cents an hour--it is simply not permitted by any business in the United States.

And to be perfectly frank about this--the minimum wage isn't much.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Friendly Jack said:


> It seems to me that you are saying we should get ready for the end of Uber.


No, there will still be hundreds of thousands ignorant and naive enough to drive @ Uber X pay.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> You can't just start a business and not follow the laws. If Uber and Lyft can't make money by running their business and paying ALL workers at least the minimum wage, just like every other business, then Uber and Lyft should not be in business.
> 
> We don't give profit making businesses a pass on this for any reason whatsoever. It doesn't matter if someone is willing to work for .50 cents an hour--it is simply not permitted by any business in the United States.
> 
> And to be perfectly frank about this--the minimum wage isn't much.


I've been an independent contractor for 30+ years. I get offered several contracts a week, most at a fixed price. If I accept a contract for $100 compensation and it turns out it takes me 20 hours to complete, who do I sue? The answer is no one. It was my fault for not researching the assignment properly.

Conversely, if I open up for bidding to make my widgets at my specifications and I accept the lowest bid, shouldn't I expect the bidder to fulfill the agreement?

To make it more relevant, if someone offers me an contract to drive strangers around at the rate of $0.10 a minute and $0.50 a mile and I accept the contract, shouldn't I be expected to drive strangers around at the rate of $0.10 a minute and $0.50 a mile? If I think its not enough but I continue doing it, who is to blame?

I agree minimum wage isn't much. And driving is dangerous. Doing something dangerous for not much compensation doesn't seem very smart. Doing it long term seems questionable. However, to fill the gap between jobs or to pay for an unexpected expense or to just get a couple of bucks during some free time seems like an OK gig. Working when and if one chooses is appealing. Trading equity for cash is not always bad. If I choose to use my new 3/4 ton 4wd suv, whose fault is that?


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

There is a difference between a real independent contractor and a ride share driver which the courts are now determining to be an employee.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

KevinH said:


> https://www.politico.com/states/new...york-state-drivers-win-employee-status-518782
> In what worker advocates are calling a substantial victory that could impact Uber drivers statewide, the New York State labor review board has made a final determination that three former Uber drivers were Uber employees for the purposes of unemployment insurance.
> 
> The finding applies to the drivers in question, as well as all "similarly situated" drivers.
> ...


UNION


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

bsliv said:


> I have no problem with the number. It is what it is. It is not the cost for me to operate my car. It is not the cost for anyone to operate their car. It was determined by an independent company that the IRS contracted with to determine the average cost of a new car, driven for 5 years at 15,000 miles per year. It is not the average cost to drive a car for a TNC. A TNC will provide commercial insurance. They should not reimburse a driver for the driver's personal insurance. A TNC should not be required to reimburse a driver for finance costs on a $32,000 car. A TNC should not be required to reimburse a driver for the property taxes the driver may or may not have. A TNC should not be required to reimburse a driver for depreciation at the rate for a new $32,000 car.
> 
> Do you know the IRS deduction for moving expenses is $0.18 per mile? Do you know how they calculated that number?
> 
> ...


Do you ever read UPnet?
I drive a cab. I'm as far from an employee as you can get.
My break even nut (waybill) is $74 per day. After that it's 100% profit. There's no W2. No sickdays. No holidays. Some days I hit $74 in 2 hours and rake in massive profit. Some days I'm logged in 11 hours and make less than a Brazilian housecleaner.
This is a business. Right as we speak I'm top in a zone which has a timecall in 22 minutes. Could be a $3 minimum job, could be $400 to Myrtle Beach.
Contractor. No promises, no guarantees.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Do you ever read UPnet?
> I drive a cab. I'm as far from an employee as you can get.
> My break even nut (waybill) is $74 per day. After that it's 100% profit. There's no W2. No sickdays. No holidays. Some days I hit $74 in 2 hours and rake in massive profit. Some days I'm logged in 11 hours and make less than a Brazilian housecleaner.
> This is a business. Right as we speak I'm top in a zone which has a timecall in 22 minutes. Could be a $3 minimum job, could be $400 to Myrtle Beach.
> Contractor. No promises, no guarantees.


My point was that being an employee is bad for drivers, bad for tnc's and bad for riders. What's your point?

Are all cabbies IC's? Are most IC's? Would you rather be an employee? If you're an IC while using a company car, how are tnc drivers employees using their own cars? Seems to me that the cab company exerts more control over you than Uber does over its drivers. If you don't drive or have a bad day you own $74. It encourages you to stay out longer. If an Uber driver doesn't drive or has a bad day, they are out nothing.

How would you like it if you were legislated out of your job?


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Do you ever read UPnet?
> I drive a cab. I'm as far from an employee as you can get.
> My break even nut (waybill) is $74 per day. After that it's 100% profit. There's no W2. No sickdays. No holidays. Some days I hit $74 in 2 hours and rake in massive profit. Some days I'm logged in 11 hours and make less than a Brazilian housecleaner.
> This is a business. Right as we speak I'm top in a zone which has a timecall in 22 minutes. Could be a $3 minimum job, could be $400 to Myrtle Beach.
> Contractor. No promises, no guarantees.


I don't want to stick up for cabs. But there is a major difference between the way cabs and ride share is working. Cab drivers are generally making at least the minimum wage. Lyft and Uber drivers are generally not making at least the minimum wage.

The fact remains that driving a cab is one of the lowest earning occupations in the United States. Lyft and Uber have actually caused those earnings to plummet.

Some major differences between cabs and rideshare:

1. Cabs can do street hails. Lyft and Uber can not do street hails. That in itself takes the "independent contractor aspect" out of the rideshare equation and moves the rideshare driver closer to employee status.

2. Cab drivers can easily have regular customers call them directly and order a ride. Lyft and Uber drivers can not. That also takes the "independent contractor aspect" out of the rideshare equation and moves the rideshare driver closer to employee status.

3. Cab drivers can negotiate and set their own prices on certain rides and services. Lyft and Uber drivers have no input on prices. That also takes the "independent contractor aspect" out of the rideshare equation and moves the rideshare driver closer to employee status.

4. Cab drivers can set appointments with their customers. Lyft and Uber drivers can not. That also takes the "independent contractor aspect" out of the rideshare equation and moves the rideshare driver closer to employee status.



bsliv said:


> My point was that being an employee is bad for drivers, bad for tnc's and bad for riders. What's your point?
> 
> Are all cabbies IC's? Are most IC's? Would you rather be an employee? If you're an IC while using a company car, how are tnc drivers employees using their own cars? Seems to me that the cab company exerts more control over you than Uber does over its drivers. If you don't drive or have a bad day you own $74. It encourages you to stay out longer. If an Uber driver doesn't drive or has a bad day, they are out nothing.
> 
> How would you like it if you were legislated out of your job?


The cab companies are having to adapt to Lyft and Uber being in their business.

Lyft and Uber are going to have to adapt to paying their employees at least the minimum wage. (which they should have been doing in the first place)

Lyft and Uber will adapt or die. Just like the cabs did.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

If someone offers me an contract to drive strangers around at the rate of $0.10 a minute and $0.50 a mile and I accept the contract, shouldn't I be expected to drive strangers around at the rate of $0.10 a minute and $0.50 a mile? That sounds like a contractor and not an employee.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

You know nothing, John Snow.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

bsliv said:


> If someone offers me an contract to drive strangers around at the rate of $0.10 a minute and $0.50 a mile and I accept the contract, shouldn't I be expected to drive strangers around at the rate of $0.10 a minute and $0.50 a mile? That sounds like a contractor and not an employee.


Being an independent contract does not give anyone the right to break the law.

For the same reason that someone can't offer you a contract to kill someone for $1000. You can't be expected to go and kill someone for $1000 even if you have agreed to do so as in independent contractor. The reason being is that it is illegal to do so. The contract would be illegal.

For the same reason you can't call the cops and report than someone stole your cocaine. It is illegal.

For the same reason you can't drive around without insurance and without a license plate even if someone offered to pay you .50 cents a mile to do it. It is illegal.

It is also illegal for workers not to be paid at least the minimum wage no matter how you want to spin it, exempt it, pretend it, try to justify it or even wish it.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> It is also illegal for workers not to be paid at least the minimum wage no matter how you want to spin it, exempt it, pretend it, try to justify it or even wish it.


Is a business owner a worker? As a business owner, who guarantees me minimum wage?

A business owner attempts to control their expenses while maximizing their income. An independent contractor is a business owner who accepts contracted assignments.

A TNC driver attempts to control their expenses (cheap car, no dead miles, etc.) while maximizing their income (no pool, no Walmarts, no long pickups, etc.) . A TNC driver is accepting contracted assignments.

In my business, I have dozens of clients. Most drivers only have 1 or 2 clients. That isn't the clients' fault. Regulations discourage competition. More competition is better for almost all participants. Remove the useless regulations. Let businesses thrive.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

bsliv said:


> Is a business owner a worker? As a business owner, who guarantees me minimum wage?
> 
> A business owner attempts to control their expenses while maximizing their income. An independent contractor is a business owner who accepts contracted assignments.
> 
> ...


Rideshare drivers are not business owners and everyone knows it. This is the reason the courts are now officially classifying them as employees which they were all along.

Under your logic Wal-Mart could fire all of their employees and hire independent contractors to service their customers in their stores. As long as those independent contractors agreed to work at Wal-Mart for 50 cents an hour then you believe that is ok.

The strip club industry used to do this with their dancers. They classified the dancers as independent contractors and didn't pay them. They actually charged the dancers to work at the club. They signed a written contract and everything. But some smart dancers found some pretty smart lawyers (probably at the strip clubs) and they filed suits against a number of strip clubs for violation of the wage and hour laws.

Unfortunately for the strip clubs, the dancers won and many strip clubs have had to pay millions of dollars in fines and back wages to the dancers.

The same thing is going to happen to Lyft and Uber. It's just a matter of when. In my opinion this is what will put them out of business. The reason that I believe this is because Lyft and Uber have done absolutely nothing to fix this sub minimum wage issue after it has been discovered. In addition, corporate officers of Lyft and Uber can be held personally liable for these back wages, fines and interest.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> Rideshare drivers are not business owners and everyone knows it.


Wrong. I am part of everyone. Rideshare drivers are running a business. Its a crappy business model. It has very low compensation. But its still a business. The business owner (driver), decides if to work. The business owner decides when to work. The business owner decides where to work. The business owner decides how long to work. The business owner supplies the tools of the trade to complete the work. The business owner decides if to accept the contract.



Bob Reynolds said:


> Under your logic Wal-Mart could fire all of their employees and hire independent contractors to service their customers in their stores. As long as those independent contractors agreed to work at Wal-Mart for 50 cents an hour then you believe that is ok.


If Walmart wants IC's, fine. That means Walmart can't tell them when, where, and how long to work. Walmart can't force a uniform on them. Walmart can't force IC's to say, "Have a good day." The IC's would have to bring their own cash register, price gun, or other tools of the trade. So, yes, Walmart could hire IC's but it doesn't fit their business model so they don't. No one should force Walmart to do it one way or the other. Its Walmart's business to do as they see fit.



Bob Reynolds said:


> The strip club industry used to do this with their dancers. They classified the dancers as independent contractors and didn't pay them. They actually charged the dancers to work at the club. They signed a written contract and everything. But some smart dancers found some pretty smart lawyers (probably at the strip clubs) and they filed suits against a number of strip clubs for violation of the wage and hour laws.


I lived with a dancer during that time in the late 90's or early 00's. The clubs were telling the dancers when to dance, how to act, etc.



Bob Reynolds said:


> this is what will put them out of business


Why would anyone, other than taxis, want TNC's eliminated? If you don't like the pay don't do the gig. If they shut down, you will have no choice. Choice is good. Biting the hand that feeds you is not so good.



Bob Reynolds said:


> fix this sub minimum wage issue


Do you believe drivers are getting less than minimum wage? There are posts here that claim to net >$100k per year. Maybe smart people make smarter decisions that effect the bottom line. Maybe reducing costs helps. Maybe increasing gross helps. Maybe both helps. Maybe neither matters. Maybe the people making less than minimum sit at a remote lake watching the sunset while waiting for a ping. Maybe the driver making OK money works at 2am in a bad part of town and has their system down after a lot of trial and error. Its their choice how to operate their business. Choice is good. Making good choices (hustling) could be profitable. Making bad choices (daydreaming) could be catastrophic. A free person should be free to choose and reap the rewards they sow.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Yes most rideshare driver's are making less than minimum wage.

The bottom line is that even the lazy ones and the ones that make bad choices and daydream are still entitled to the minimum wage as well as FICA and Medicare contributions.

You can try to shift the blame to the worker. It's nothing new. It's been tried over and over again. The employer ALWAYS loses when they try to misclassify employees. It's just a matter of time.

Employers *misclassify* their workers as "independent contractors" rather than "employees" to avoid paying payroll taxes on them, costing states and the federal government millions of dollars in lost tax revenue annually. The government is not going to lose here. They always win.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> Employers *misclassify* their workers as "independent contractors" rather than "employees" to avoid paying payroll taxes on them, costing states and the federal government millions of dollars in lost tax revenue annually.


That may be one reason but it isn't the primary reason. Who do you think would pick more fruit, one that gets minimum wage or one that gets paid by the bushel? Getting paid for what you produce seems like a good thing to me. Paying for what you receive seems like a good thing to me. I would like to see my local DMV workers get paid by how many licenses or registrations they process.


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## dirtylee (Sep 2, 2015)

A business that cannot pay its employees/contractors a liveable wage shouldn't be able to operate.


Too many jackasses are running around calling themselves successful business owners ignoring the fact that their own damn employees are reliant on the STATE for basic living expenses.

This needs to be shutdown Hard. Decades of this bullshit will be the end of America.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bsliv said:


> That may be one reason but it isn't the primary reason. Who do you think would pick more fruit, one that gets minimum wage or one that gets paid by the bushel? Getting paid for what you produce seems like a good thing to me. Paying for what you receive seems like a good thing to me. I would like to see my local DMV workers get paid by how many licenses or registrations they process.


If the person making minimum wage doesn't produce, they get fired.

What Uber has been doing since day one is paying by the bushel then paying less per bushel. Then less per bushel. Then less per bushel. Then less per bushel. You get the point.

That is why it's a _minimum _wage.

Uber has _for the vast majority _of drivers gone below minimum wage.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

observer said:


> If the person making minimum wage doesn't produce, they get fired.
> 
> What Uber has been doing since day one is paying by the bushel then paying less per bushel. Then less per bushel. Then less per bushel. Then less per bushel. You get the point.
> 
> ...


A market driven price is more efficient and creates more benefits than an artificial price. A market driven price allocates resources to where they will be most productive. An artificial price may create shortages, disruptions and inefficiencies.

Market value can be defined as the most probable price which a service should bring in a competitive and open market under all conditions requisite to a fair sale, the buyer and seller, each acting prudently, knowledgeably and assuming the price is not effected by undue stimulus.

If I'm willing to work for $1 an hour or even free, why can't I? According to some, the vast majority of drivers accept less than minimum wage. Guess what, no one is going to pay more than what is required.

If there are enough bakers willing to sell a loaf of bread for a $1 and there are enough buyers willing to buy a loaf for $1, why stop them? If the average baker only makes 5 loaves per hour, does that matter? No! The average baker needs more ovens, cheaper dough, or just be more efficient. If they can't survive on what they make they should find another business. Some one shouldn't step in and say all loaves must cost at least $2.

Why do drivers accept less than minimum wage when there are plenty of opportunities at minimum wage? Our economy is good. Unemployment rates are low. Could it be that its easier or less stressful or more enjoyable to drive than flip burgers or stock shelves? Or could it be that most do the gig due to a temporary situation?

Forcing a set wage on everyone rewards the inept and penalizes the proficient.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

bsliv said:


> A market driven price is more efficient and creates more benefits than an artificial price. A market driven price allocates resources to where they will be most productive. An artificial price may create shortages, disruptions and inefficiencies.
> 
> Market value can be defined as the most probable price which a service should bring in a competitive and open market under all conditions requisite to a fair sale, the buyer and seller, each acting prudently, knowledgeably and assuming the price is not effected by undue stimulus.
> 
> ...


There's a very simple reason why you shouldn't be allowed to work for free in an industry where people rely on the wages to feed their families.
A perfect example of this is live music.
You get a few more Yahoo's Every year who decide to give away their stage time for free or "pay to play". 
You undercut the market and eventually the market Becomes worthless.
Stick that in your Milton Friedman pipe and smoke it.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

bsliv said:


> A market driven price is more efficient and creates more benefits than an artificial price. A market driven price allocates resources to where they will be most productive. An artificial price may create shortages, disruptions and inefficiencies.
> 
> Market value can be defined as the most probable price which a service should bring in a competitive and open market under all conditions requisite to a fair sale, the buyer and seller, each acting prudently, knowledgeably and assuming the price is not effected by undue stimulus.
> 
> ...


The reason minimum wage laws were enacted (back in 1938) in the first place was because of attitudes and beliefs just like yours. All of this has been tried before. The employer will always lose this game when their workers are not making the minimum wage.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> You undercut the market and eventually the market Becomes worthless.


It doesn't become worthless, it becomes what the market (buyers and sellers) determines it to be. It doesn't require human intervention.



TwoFiddyMile said:


> Stick that in your Milton Friedman pipe and smoke it.


You say that like the research into economics by a Nobel Prize winning economist is meaningless. "This is one of those cases in which the imagination is baffled by the facts," Adam Smith.



Bob Reynolds said:


> The reason minimum wage laws were enacted


Instituting a minimum wage during the depression was a mistake. It increased unemployment. Raising the minimum wage during boom times is meaningless as labor becomes scarce, its value increases. By increasing the minimum during the boom, it reduces the ability for wages to fall during a depression. That will increase unemployment. This is not opinion, it is fact. It may be true that a society may accept the higher unemployment as natural but its not natural, it manipulated. My opinion is that full employment at a slightly lower wage is preferable to partial employment at a higher wage.



Bob Reynolds said:


> The employer will always lose this game when their workers are not making the minimum wage.


The employer may *typically *lose in a court of law and court of public opinion. But the employer may lose. If the employer loses, their employees lose in the long run also. After this court decision a taxi organization said, "We won, Uber lost." The taxi organization includes cabbies. Uber includes its drivers. Cabbies won, Uber drivers lost.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Speaking of Milton Friedman, listen to what he had to say concerning the minimum wage. 




There are 2 groups advocating a minimum wage. Do gooders and trade unions (taxis). He could be speaking about this court decision.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

bsliv said:


> Speaking of Milton Friedman, listen to what he had to say concerning the minimum wage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are no wages in taxis.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

I'm not sure what cabs and taxis have to do with the minimum wage.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Bob Reynolds said:


> I'm not sure what cabs and taxis have to do with the minimum wage.


He's going off the raisr on a crazy train.


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## 2Cents (Jul 18, 2016)

bsliv said:


> If someone offers me an contract to drive strangers around at the rate of $0.10 a minute and $0.50 a mile and I accept the contract, shouldn't I be expected to drive strangers around at the rate of $0.10 a minute and $0.50 a mile? That sounds like a contractor and not an employee.


A contractor that knows the name , pick up time AND destination before he/she accepts or denies such trip.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> I'm not sure what cabs and taxis have to do with the minimum wage.


A quote from the OP, "We won and they lost," said New York Taxi Workers Alliance Executive Director Bhairavi Desai, in an interview on Wednesday.

If you watched the video I posted you would know the real effect of a minimum wage is to reduce competition with the entrenched businesses. It has a side effect of gaining votes for legislators.



2Cents said:


> A contractor that knows the name , pick up time AND destination before he/she accepts or denies such trip.


A smart contractor will get as much information as possible concerning an assignment. A not so smart contractor will accept the assignment without knowing the terms. They're both contractors.


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## 2Cents (Jul 18, 2016)

bsliv said:


> A quote from the OP, "We won and they lost," said New York Taxi Workers Alliance Executive Director Bhairavi Desai, in an interview on Wednesday.
> 
> If you watched the video I posted you would know the real effect of a minimum wage is to reduce competition with the entrenched businesses. It has a side effect of gaining votes for legislators.
> 
> A smart contractor will get as much information as possible concerning an assignment. A not so smart contractor will accept the assignment without knowing the terms. They're both contractors.


Good point. Now all you not so smart "Independent Contractor" s turn off your app until conditions improve, i.e. a rate per mile that's actually profitable and the destination of the passenger is revealed before accepting trip.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

2Cents said:


> Good point. Now all you not so smart "Independent Contractor" s turn off your app until conditions improve, i.e. a rate per mile that's actually profitable and the destination of the passenger is revealed before accepting trip.


I usually have way too much free time but can't see minimum wage, especially with the risks involved, worth it. I stopped driving and they've lowered the rates even further.

I don't know whether most drivers accept the low pay or they don't know the expenses they're generating. If they accept it, there's not much anyone can do about it. I'm not sure how to inform those that think gas is there only expense.

Left on its own, rates have to increase. The number of drivers with questionable math skills has to run out. Even with the current, miserable rates, its worth it for some. Its better than a car title loan. Rideshare could be a good, short term or part time solution for some. It would be a shame to remove the option of driving for them.

I'd like to see Uber fail. But I'd like to see them fail due to their own ineptness. That will leave room for more competitors. If Uber is legislated out of business, chances are no one could operate under the new rules.

The best of intentions have unintended consequences.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Yep, get ready for minimum wage plus $.17 per mile. Mandatory drug testing, strict schedules, mandatory pickups in gridlocked traffic, in undesirable locations and undesirable customers. Get ready for mandatory performance reviews, mandatory vehicle quality reviews and mandatory dress codes. Get ready to help every Walmart customer carry those grocery bags up 3 flights of stairs and tips can now become strongly discouraged by Uber. Be careful what you wish for.


If uber has to pay minimum wage, their very existence would be in serious jeopardy.

The only way they could survive minimum wage would be if the SDCs were ready very soon afterwards.

Their business model has always been dependent on receiving millions of hours of free labor every day as well as massive market penetration, BOTH of which they'd lose with minimum wage employees.

Minimum wage would mean massive layoffs, severe contraction of markets, crashing valuation, SDC program in major trouble, investors bailing, etc.


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