# Hey, cabbies...



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

A lot of cabbies (taxi drivers, hacks) participate on the website here...
most providing useful and helpful information - others just here to bash Uber and Uber drivers.

One of the common myths promoted by cab drivers is that 'absolutely anyone' can register and drive Uber. They also imply and sometimes state outright that taxi drivers are all the cream of the crop - and they brush off any question about why so many consumers prefer Uber drivers to taxi drivers.

So, regardless of your opinion of Uber, cabbies:
*What percentage of taxi cab drivers would still be driving today
if they were rated by each paying rider for each ride provided (as Uber drivers are)
on a scale of 1 to 5... 
and knowing that if their average rating was 4 or below that they would be fired?*


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## hanging in there (Oct 1, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> A lot of cabbies (taxi drivers, hacks) participate on the website here...
> most providing useful and helpful information - others just here to bash Uber and Uber drivers.
> 
> One of the common myths promoted by cab drivers is that 'absolutely anyone' can register and drive Uber. They also imply and sometimes state outright that taxi drivers are all the cream of the crop - and they brush off any question about why so many consumers prefer Uber drivers to taxi drivers.
> ...


In my experience (5 cab companies + TCP in the last 8 years in three different counties) maybe 60% of the new cab drivers don't last beyond 2-3 weeks as it is, and I'd say only about 20-30% of them last for more than a few months. That's why typically you can say with confidence that "the cab company ALWAYS needs drivers, that "position" or "opportunity" is ALWAYS open". Even if all cars are currently leased out, the owners know that it's only a short time before someone else bites the dust and turns the cab back in. Owner/operator cab drivers are generally more seasoned veterans who know they have enough of a future that they are willing to make that commitment.

So to answer your question, let's say the 20-30% of new cab drivers who last at least a few months had to undergo the same rating system, I would guess that most of them would still hang in there and survive as cab drivers not because they currently provide that level of service but because they would be forced to, and because they have already survived an otherwise tough road so they are accustomed to overcoming difficulties and are more committed to the "job". The one's who don't cut it are generally already out for many other reasons, the star rating would only be one more roadblock.

In the big picture it would probably eliminate maybe 20% of that 20-30% surviving pool, most of them non-owner/operators because they would have less to lose by not playing the "5-star service" game.

Bottom line: I believe it would be a good thing in general, it would improve the taxi experience, and most of the drivers would not be "fired" that would otherwise survive.

Side note: The sad part about the Uber driving experience is that, even though from my limited experience, it is much easier to "stay saddled on the bucking bull" for a longer time as a new Uber driver compared to being a new taxi driver, there are still going to be many of the same reasons why people will find that doing livery work is not for them, and with Uber they have to make the commitment of using their own car right off the bat. For some it's not a big deal but it is if they have to buy or lease a car just to try it. I had a new Uber driver on the way home from the airport today and he didn't have a clue, I should have rated him no more than 2 or 3 but didn't have the heart to ding a newbie so I still gave him a 5.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Hanging in There expressed it well. Perhaps twenty per-cent would be bent over, have the door held open for them then someone would take a running start, plant a foot squarely in their posterior with the result that they were sent flying out into the street.

As hanging in there accurately states, the survivors would realise that if they did not act right, they would get the boot, so the majority of them would fall into line. We have Uber Taxi in this market. I must state that it has put me on my toes even with a street hail, so that I get used to keeping up the standard.

To be sure, I always have maintained higher standards of service. If I pull up to an address or stop for a street hail, if I see a suitcase, grocery bags, boxes, whatever, I get out, open the trunk and help. I do not remain seated in the cab after I press the trunk button. At least I get out and get the door if they have all of their stuff in their arms. I have always done this, but since Uber Taxi I have made doubly sure that I do it. 

I always have treated my customers with courtesy and respect, but, again, I make sure to be extra polite to everyone. I make sure that the air condition is to their liking. If it is too cold, I will adjust it back. If it is n ot cool enough, I will adjust it up. 

I make sure that I heard or saw (on the application) the destination that they announced. If they specify a route, I make sure to let them know that I am familiar with the route that they want. If there are alternatives on the route that they are specifying, I make sure that I understand which choice they want me to make. When the passenger announces the destination or, I see it on the application, I let the passenger know that I am familiar with something about the destination. If they are going to the George Hotel, I say something like, "Oh , yes, the old Bellvue Hotel". If they want to go to the Embassy of France, I say "Oh, yes, on Reservoir Road up from Georgetown Hospital".

Sometimes, I would get a bit lax, here and there, but those times are fewer since Uber Taxi.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

thank you hanging in there and Another Uber Driver ... these are the responses I was looking for.

What brought it all to mind was my overall emotional response to the whole ride-share phenomena: if taxi companies (not the owner/operators) had put service first 5 years ago when they could have implemented things like driver ratings, app-hail and app-pay, Uber and Lyft would likely have never been able to get a foothold in any of the major cities. It would still be a black-car service - if that. The only markets they might have been able to get into would have been markets where no cab company would implement technology to improve the user experience.

That being said, I know that in my market, a good 50% of my rides are NOT coming from people who would have called a cab... they come from people who would have driven themselves or called a friend.

Again - thanks...
I'm looking forward to hearing responses from more hacks...


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> What brought it all to mind was my overall emotional response to the whole ride-share phenomena: if taxi companies (not the owner/operators) had put service first 5 years ago when they could have implemented things like driver ratings, app-hail and app-pay... Uber and Lyft would likely have never been able to get a foothold in any of the major cities. It would still be a black-car service - if that.
> 
> That being said, I know that in my market, a good 50% of my rides are NOT coming from people who would have called a cab... they come from people who would have driven themselves or called a friend.


Your statements are not off the mark. A little history on Uber's arrival, here, is illustrative.

The limousines were first discovered in October, 2012. It is likely that they were here as early as May. There was a big to-do about it, as Uber was breaking a number of rules and laws. The Chair of the Taxicab Commission even did a sting on a Uber limousine. There was an outcry from the Uber users and some other things occurred which I will not detail here, except to state that the pertinent member of the City Council suddenly became Uber's greatest advocate, here. In February, 2013, Uber Taxi arrived. The users were so happy that Uber had taxis in Washington. They did not want to pay limousine rates. They liked taking taxis, but they did not like having to carry cash to pay for them. More than a few of my passengers used to gripe about having to carry cash for one thing, only, anymore: a taxi. In October, 2013, credit card acceptance became mandatory for Washington cabs. In early 2014 (I seem to remember February) UberX launched in Washington.

I have accepted credit cards in my cab since 1998. I was one of the first taxi drivers that Uber signed-up for Uber Taxi, here. I signed on to UberX in June, 2014.

In 1998, I was mid-management at the major West Side cab company in Washington. The West Side is where the money is, here. I told the Board of Directors back then, that they needed to get a website, set it up to accept on-line orders and compel the drivers to accept credit cards. The Board would not do it. In 1999, I became Corporate Secretary of that company. I continued to push the above three, in vain. My Board would not go for it. In 2007, I sold my interest in that company. By that time, a major competitor had installed a digital call assignment system, compelled its drivers to accept credit cards and had an on-line ordering system. The only reason that it could not take our customers was that it had a really hard time covering its requests.

Fall, 2012, and Uber is "discovered" here. As I was still working with my former company as a dispatcher, I had been noticing a slight drop in calls since the late Spring. Even though Uber rates are up to five times the cab fare, the people on the West Side are now abandoning their former cab company in droves. Uber is offering them seamless payment, and reliability. The user can open his application and decide for himself when, or if, he will get a ride. If he sees no vehicles available, he knows immediately to do something else, rather than wait twenty minutes to figure out that he must do something else. All that my former company could offer them was mostly cash acceptance; few drivers accepted cards. Further, my former company could offer them long waits on HOLD, rude order takers, incompetents on the microphone (mostly, that is--there were one or two of us left who knew what we were doing), long waits or no ride at all. My former company was broke by then (and you wonder why I sold out?), so it could not afford to become competitive. The other two companies did update. One is keeping its drivers busy with its numerous Corporate Accounts. The other one (the one with which I am now affiliated) does many Government contracts to keep its drivers busy.

Had my Board of Directors listened to me in 1998, or, even as late as 2005, Uber might have been a limousine service, only, here.

UberX might, and I state, might have gotten a toe-hold here, but it would not be what it is to-day. As you have stated, large numbers of UberX users are people who never would use a cab, anyhow. In your market, it is fifty per-cent. Here it is closer to seventy-five to eighty-five per-cent. That is the number of my UberX passengers who have told me that they never would have used a cab, or , rarely used a cab. They hate the subway, but will not pay for a taxi to get off it. They will, however, pay for UberX to get off it.

UberX has sent a few users to Uber Taxi here. These are people who game the surge. Depending on their personal threshold, usually between 1,4 and 1,7, they use UberX up until the surge hits that mark. If the surge hits that mark, they use Uber Taxi. Those who do not game the surge, will simply go back to the subway if they do not like the surge.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Thank you for the informative post.
Great read... and right in line with my thoughts.

Imagine what the situation in NYC would be today if the NYC TLC had implemented a city-wide online system in 2010 for app-hailing, with ride requests going to the nearest car - regardless of company affiliation.

There are so many examples of this over the last 50 years, in every industry. You would the geniuses who collect multi-million dollar salaries and stock options would have learned by now that if you ignore your competition and refuse to change with technological advances, you die.

ByeBye Kresge 
ByeBye K-Mart
ByeBye Kodak
ByeBye Olivetti
ByeBye Borders
ByeBye Blockbuster
ByeBye Polaroid
ByeBye half the print newspapers in the country
ByeBye Chicken-Delight... wait... that one should really still be around.


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## Raquel (Jan 9, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> thank you... these are the responses I was looking for.
> 
> What brought it all to mind was my overall emotional response to the whole ride-share phenomena: if taxi companies (not the owner/operators) had put service first 5 years ago when they could have implemented things like driver ratings, app-hail and app-pay... Uber and Lyft would likely have never been able to get a foothold in any of the major cities. It would still be a black-car service - if that. The only markets they might have been able to get into would have been markets where no cab company would implement technology to improve the user experience.
> 
> ...


I think MOST of your rides, like most of all uberX rides wouldn't have driven themselves, they would have taken PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION...At 0.90 a mile or even lower in some areas, Uber no longer competes with taxis...they compete with public transportation...and they have said as much.. I've even seen a large amount of uber ads on buses, and trains and even bus stops... Sadly that is reality and uber has gone out of their way to on board more and more people from public transportation...I think most if you have noticed a gradual decrease in the "quality" of the pax.... before it used to be a lot of corporate types and young college kids living on their parents money...now it has shifted more and more towards drunks, trailer trash, druggies, etc, etc..


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Raquel said:


> I think MOST of your rides, like most of all uberX rides wouldn't have driven themselves, they would have taken PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION


Maybe for you - but not my rides.
Here, it's at least 50% that only use Uber because they don't want to drink & drive (the night crowd).
I am 100% certain that no one here gets a couple of friends together (or a date) and says
'let's take a bus downtown to go party'.
(and the buses don't run at 2:30AM when the bars close anyway)

The day crowd is nearly all business... and they would call a cab.

This is Cleveland -
we don't have a PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION system that extends to the suburbs, where most people live.
Where it does exist, you could grow old trying to get somewhere using it.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

The other thing that you have had here, at least, is that the taxicab drivers refused to rise to meet the demands of their market. I refer to the acceptance of non-cash payments. I have accepted credit cards in my cab since 1998--I saw a demand for it *THEN.
*
Any merchant who will not rise to meet the demands of his market is doomed to failure. I have no degree in either Business Administration or Economics, but it takes neither to understand that.


People were using Uber limousine here, and, paying up to five times the cab fare, just for the convenience of using a credit card. When Uber Taxi came, it made the limousine drivers complain, because a small percentage of the taxis were getting their customers back.

It was funny. When I went to the Uber event at the restaurant, Uber made its pitch, it was a good one, so I signed up. There were drivers who were balking at it. Yeah, the cash may be all good and wonderful, but it _ain't how people wanna' pay no more._ Now that there is a way to find out if and when your ride is showing up, people want to use it. Drivers are balking at that, as well.

Despite the presence of the City mandated credit card terminals in the cabs, I have kept my own (not Square). The DCTC tries to tell us that we can not allow customers to use anything other than the terminal in the cab. That *MUST BE ILLEGAL*. Further, the City-mandated terminals are prone to failure. As you are no doubt aware, if you use a card frequently, the magnetic strip gets beat up and many terminals will not read it. The keypad on the City-mandated terminals is non-functional. Finally, some people, such as elderly, on crutches or disabled find it easier to get into the front. The City-mandated terminal is in the back seat, only.

In my cab, if a customer wants to pay with a card, he is going to pay with a card. I am not going to make him go to a cash machine just because the City terminal will not work, will not allow me to key in the card manually or will not read his card. I am not making someone who can not use the back seat go there just to pay with a card.

In fact, since all of us will have to have terminals that will read chips by October, I have asked my provider if it can get me a terminal that does Google Wallet, ApplePay and PayPal. This will allow me to offer my customers all sorts of ways to pay me. In fact, if Uber would implement a Pay with Uber option for Uber Taxi users, something that Hail-O does, it will take the dice out of paying with Uber now. I have had users notice my Uberfone or Uber logo and ask to pay with Uber. Chicago Uber users do this all the time if they happen to hail an Uber Taxi. Some of them like the convenience of the e-Mailed receipt. Some like to have all of their transportation bills in one place. To pay an Uber Taxi with Uber now, it is a bit dicey. You would think that since the user is sitting no more than six feet from me, the request would go to me. Usually, it does. Sometimes, however, it does not. Fortunately, if the user cancels right away, Uber does not charge him. If the user sends the request again, it has come to me every time but once. That user had to try three times. Chicago users tell me that two tries is not infrequent and three happen more frequently than anyone would think.

Hail-O pulled out of North America, but they are still in Europe and Asia, competing with Uber and a few others. Hail-O has implemented "Pay with Hail-O" in Europe and Asia.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> You would think that since the user is sitting no more than six feet from me, the request would go to me. Usually, it does. Sometimes, however, it does not. Fortunately, if the user cancels right away, Uber does not charge him. If the user sends the request again, it has come to me every time but once. That user had to try three times. Chicago users tell me that two tries is not infrequent and three happen more frequently than anyone would think.


Don't feel alone - the same thing happens with Uber's ride-share - all the time.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

BTW... Just yesterday I pre-ordered the update for the square reader that will be NFC/chip compliant.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I hope Mr Hackenstein finds this topic


You want to know how many legit NYC yellow cab drivers would still be on the road if they were subjected to a degrading rating system on every ride, like a monkey in the zoo?

Who gives a fu*k.

Anything else?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

well, I guess that answers that question...
hard to imagine you'd last a week.
And to answer your question:
RIDERS give a fu*k.
Which is why they prefer Uber to a hack like you - who doesn't give a fu*k.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> well, I guess that answers that question...
> hard to imagine you'd last a week.
> And to answer your question:
> RIDERS give a fu*k.
> Which is why they prefer Uber to a hack like you - who doesn't give a fu*k.


I wouldn't last one minute or ever subject myself to that sort of degradation.

I don't get many complaints from passengers, and get a pretty good number of compliments. I'm not a puppet on a string for them and vice versa. Or for some Billionaire pricks in Silicon Valley who want smiling robot drivers until they can replace them with actual robot cars.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> I wouldn't last one minute


You said it - not me.


> I'm not a puppet on a string for them ...


Good.
Me either. I get a ride request that's too far away - I don't accept it.
I pull up to a group of fall-down drunk riders - I move on.
I drive only when I have the time - and want to.
Someone gets stupid in my car - they're out on the street.

I think Uber's rating system is pretty bad.
But it's a thousand times better than no rating system at all - the way cabs operate (with next to no accountability).

At least with Uber, all it takes is a few 1 star ratings and a complaint about anything from poor driving to bad breath and your off the system... as it should be.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You said it - not me.
> 
> Good.
> Me either. I get a ride request I that's too far away - I don't accept it.
> ...


Well gosh golly gee, how have taxis lasted 100 years in NYC without a bullshit big brother rating system

My God, how do we even have MTA bus drivers , they're not rated on every trip and tossed a fish for the 'right attitude' like a trained seal.

No accountability? Passengers in a yellow cab have an actual number to call and report you. In fact it's on every receipt and on a placard in front of them on the partition. Dial 311, get connected directly to the TLC.

Seems like you also have no idea how strict the points system is for taxis and how relentlessly targeted and ticketed they are by the cops.

And now, sparkles inserts a reply to every single line I typed and wastes everyone's time.


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## Taxi Driver in Arizona (Mar 18, 2015)

Excellent question, OP. I like to think I would be able to survive being rates by my pax, but we'll never know. I do know that I've yet to receive a customer complaint in 12 years of doing this.

Let me ask you a question. How long do you think you would last as a taxi driver? You have no idea what it's like not know if you're even going to get paid at the end of every ride. Stiffs and runners are fairly rare, but they happen and on more than one occasion I had to get a bit aggressive in demanding payment.

What would you do when you are dropping off a pax at the airport and their credit card is declined? You just going to let them walk away and not pay you the $50 they owe?


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> Excellent question, OP. I like to think I would be able to survive being rates by my pax, but we'll never know. I do know that I've yet to receive a customer complaint in 12 years of doing this.
> 
> Let me ask you a question. How long do you think you would last as a taxi driver? You have no idea what it's like not know if you're even going to get paid at the end of every ride. Stiffs and runners are fairly rare, but they happen and on more than one occasion I had to get a bit aggressive in demanding payment.
> 
> What would you do when you are dropping off a pax at the airport and their credit card is declined? You just going to let them walk away and not pay you the $50 they owe?


Yeah, I love how Uber plays up the 'we go to the outer boroughs' angle while only taking people with pre-approved credit cards on file. Exactly.

I've found myself in the Bronx at 6 AM with a kid who jumps out and runs into a project. I 'provided excellent service' and that was my reward.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> - the way cabs operate (with next to no accountability).


I do not know what happens in Cleveland, but, with respect to Washington, the above quoted statement *IS FALSE. *There are rules, regulations and laws that are over-enforced against legitimate drivers while lawbreakers are ignored. People with large sums of money are allowed to operate almost regulation free while cab drivers and companies are overregulated with oppressive and unduly burdensome rules.

The regulators here continue to put into effect more and more rules and regulations that trample the Constitutional, Common Law and Legislated protections of cab drivers and cab companies. Regulators continue to wear down drivers' Due Process Rights while making it easy for obviously frivolous complaints not only to receive a hearing, but are upheld.

The only reason that anyone could state that there is "no accountability" here would be due to "accountability" 's being a misnomer: replace "accountability" with *OPPRESSION.*

As Hackenstein indicates, below, the situation in New York City is not dissimilar. I never hacked in New York. I did live there. I have family there, still. I have talked extensively to New York hackers. Thus, I have some idea of _up with which they must put_. What Hackenstein posts on the subject is more than plausible. I would lay odds that it understates the case, in fact. I would venture that the statements from the Gentleman from Arizona are on the mark, as well, as he describes, and has described, more than a few situations in which I have found myself, over the years. Hackenstein has done the same.

Similar to New York, cabs in Washington must have a "Passenger Rights Statement" in the cab. Amoung other things, this statement indicates the procedure for filing complaints, and does so in plain language; one of the few D.C. Government Publications that uses plain language. Over the years, the Taxicab Commission has slowly worn down our Rights to Due Process with the result that it is extremely difficult to defend against even an obviously frivolous complaint. Drivers are presumed guilty, *even when* proved innocent.



Hackenstein said:


> No accountability? Passengers in a yellow cab have an actual number to call and report you. In fact it's on every receipt and on a placard in front of them on the partition. Dial 311, get connected directly to the TLC.
> 
> Seems like you also have no idea how strict the points system is for taxis and how relentlessly targeted and ticketed they are by the cops.


In New York, I can see that you go through similar to what we must deal with, here. I did forget to add that the complaint number is on every receipt, here, as well. Here, be it Downtown or in the neighbourhoods, most people are paying electronically. You do see a little more cash in the poorer neighbourhoods, but, even many of the people who live there are paying electronically. I would suspect that the majority of people in Manhattan are using cards. I do not know how much you run the Boroughs, but if you run them at all, I would be curious to know how frequently they use cards, and where. In the places in the Boroughs where I used to live, I would suspect that most used cards. The one exception might be those who live over by St. Raymond's Cemetery. That neighbourhood has changed a little since I lived there.



Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> Excellent question, OP. I like to think I would be able to survive being rates by my pax, but we'll never know. I do know that I've yet to receive a customer complaint in 12 years of doing this.
> 
> Let me ask you a question. How long do you think you would last as a taxi driver? You have no idea what it's like not know if you're even going to get paid at the end of every ride. Stiffs and runners are fairly rare, but they happen and on more than one occasion I had to get a bit aggressive in demanding payment.
> 
> What would you do when you are dropping off a pax at the airport and their credit card is declined? You just going to let them walk away and not pay you the $50 they owe?


You point out one, amoung many, of the glaring differences between Uber and hacking. If the customer's card is declined, Uber will pay. It does not work that way in the cab. In fact, one of the things that I like about Uber Taxi is that I get paid even if the card is no good. What I did not like about My Taxi was that if the customer treid ot pay through the application and the card was no good, you hoped that either he had cash or another card that you could run. I had two bad cards on My Taxi. Fortunately, one had cash, the other had a card that he managed to run through my personal terminal. The terminal in the cab would not read the card, nor would mine. I had to key it in, manually.

While this is not necessarily directed at the Original Poster, I must agree with your asking the question about lasting as a cab driver. I have posted in more than one place on this forum that it is obvious that there are more than a few Uber drivers who have more than a little to learn about this business.

The overwhelming majority of the cab drivers, current and former, who post here know their stuff and have posted more than a little that merits serious consideration from some of these rookies, here. The two hackers whom I have quoted in this post are amoung those whose words deserve serious consideration and careful reading.

......and you can add some of the long time limousine drivers and operators who post here to the category of "knowing their stuff", as well...................

.........and I am not unjustified in referring to the many UberX drivers a "rookies". More than a few of the UberX drivers never had driven anyone, anywhere, for compensation before this. I do not mean collecting a few bucks for gasolene when you drove a carload of buddies to the baseball game; I mean driving day in and day out, several hours daily, for regular compensation. Uber has been out here for five years, yes, but in its early years, it was in California, only. the limousines came here in 2012; Uber Taxi, 2013; UberX; 2014. UberX has been here for a little less than two years. While some things are starting to show, most of the UberX drivers have not had the opportunities to experience everything that those of us who have been out here for some time have.

Yes, some of you have become jaded quickly, but you have not become really jaded Y-E-T. Some of your cars are starting to get rough around the edges, but shortly their cloth seats and carpeted floors will deteriorate more quickly that our vinyl seats and rubber floors. You have not had the ecstatic pleasure of receiving an enormous repair bill for having something replaced on your car of which that your mechanic nevr knew existed until he started taking apart your car.

It will come soon enough, have no fear. I give it another two years, or so, although more and more will appear sooner.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> how have taxis lasted 100 years in NYC without a bullshit big brother rating system


Gee golly wiz, you don't think maybe it has something to do with NO BETTER ALTERNATIVE?

Maybe you haven't noticed because you're in the NYC bubble without a clue of what's going on anywhere else, but public transportation systems (mass-transit) are struggling everywhere and implementing changes to increase ridership - and use technology.

Really - you think that people using Yellow Taxis call the company after EVERY ride to voice their rating - good or bad?



> Seems like you also have no idea how strict the points system is for taxis and how relentlessly targeted and ticketed they are by the cops.


Funny that you can't post anything without some personal attack and insult. Says a lot about you as a person. 1*
Cops? You're at such a loss for a relevant reply that you have to keep inserting things that are irrelevant to the topic at hand?
And have you noticed that you're the only person that seems to think that my making my replies to individual points in a msg easily readable is somehow a bad thing?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> Yeah, I love how Uber plays up the 'we go to the outer boroughs' angle while only taking people with pre-approved credit cards on file.


 Uber accepts PayPal accounts, too - which are tied to bank accounts directly... but I wish they would only take people with approved credit.

You're posting mis-information, again - completely irrelevant to the conversation.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Gee golly wiz, you don't think maybe it has something to do with NO BETTER ALTERNATIVE?
> 
> Maybe you haven't noticed because you're in the NYC bubble without a clue of what's going on anywhere else, but public transportation systems (mass-transit) are struggling everywhere and implementing changes to increase ridership - and use technology.
> 
> ...


I rarely use personal attacks. I'd try to just deal with 'sparkles' if I were you.

You want bus drivers to be subjected to everyone's mood 24/7 and worry that a bad 'rating' will cost him his job? That would be insane and degrading.

Yes, cops. They target yellow cabs constantly and pass out tickets like candy. Not so much for Uber drivers, they seem to just get a warning. Funny how that happens. You claimed we have no accountability, and got a reply.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Uber accepts PayPal accounts, too - which are tied to bank accounts directly... but I wish they would only take people with approved credit.
> 
> You're posting mis-information, again - completely irrelevant to the conversation.


Not irrelevant at all. You want to claim Uber is somehow superior, yet they don't even accept cash.

You get guaranteed money and even a verified identity of the passenger and therefore assume none of the risk of potentially being ripped off. Keep that in mind when using the tired 'yellow cabs don't go to the outer boroughs' bs line. We not only go, we assume actual risk.


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## Eat.Sleep.Drive (Jul 16, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> why so many consumers prefer Uber drivers to taxi drivers.


Let me get this straight; the price being 2 or 3 times being cheaper has nothing to do with it? The app being too good in terms of payment, being able to track the car, etc.. has little to do with it?? Your question makes it sound like customers flocked because of the angelic beings who happen to be the uber drivers, and trying to escape from the devilish cabbies.
When I first read your post, all I wanted to post was "Get Lost!". You seem like a smart fella but you sure come across as a patronizer. 
Do you really believe the rating system, aka kiss-ass system, is about the drivers?? You could do every thing right and still get 1*. Which means the system mostly turns the rider into an unreasonable jerk more than it makes me do my job right.
But to answer you lame question, I 'll suspect it 'll be about the same percentage of drivers as what is currently being deactivated on these TNC outfits.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> I do not know what happens in Cleveland, but, with respect to Washington, the above quoted statement *IS FALSE. *There are rules, regulations and laws that are over-enforced against legitimate drivers while lawbreakers are ignored. People with large sums of money are allowed to operate almost regulation free while cab drivers and companies are overregulated with oppressive and unduly burdensome rules.


I understand what you're saying and don't disagree... and maybe I shouldn't have used the word 'accountability' as I did - but I can't think of a better term. The fact is, however, that an Uber driver is rated by the pax after every single ride. The rider can't use the app to call for another ride until they have rated their last trip. If an Uber driver is consistently receiving ratings even just 4 stars out of five - they will lose access to the app and be unable to provide Uber rides. If a rider has a serous complaint and includes that comment with their rating - they driver will loose access immediately. Every driver - on every ride is held accountable by the rider.

I also don't consider Uber(s) to be analogous to cabs. When I use Uber as a rider, I KNOW I'm basically getting a non-professional driver - someone just like me who fills some time by providing rides with their own vehicle. That's very appealing to me. And apparently to a lot of other people. If I were in NYC/Manhattan or DC, I would personally street hail a cab in most areas. I can't imagine being in Columbus circle and using the Uber app, having to wait even two minutes, and 'hope' that a ride-share driver would find me... (although Uber *might* be an advantage to me if it's rush hour and I can't get a street hail?)


> The only reason that anyone could state that there is "no accountability" here would be due to "accountability" 's being a misnomer: replace "accountability" with *OPPRESSION.*


Well, no - I'm referring to 'accountability' of the driver to the individual rider... but I do understand AND AGREE (at least somewhat) about accountability of hacks to the 'system'... which was based on "your industry gets exclusivity in exchange for abiding by these regs..."). Having lost that exclusivity, the TLCs and cities should be held accountable to at help level the playing field.



> the result that it is extremely difficult to defend against even an obviously frivolous complaint. Drivers are presumed guilty, *even when* proved innocent.


You think hacks have a difficult time 'defending' themselves against frivolous complaints? Even owner operators have can call whatever oversight body they are responsible to...
*Ever tried to telephone Uber?*
Uber and Lyft ACT first (deducting fares, disabling access to rides) and then don't bother to ask questions at all.

Still - I don't think it's reasonable to try do an in-depth apples-to-apples comparison of the system's back-ends - at least not in this thread.
They are not the same businesses.
On the front end - rider satisfaction - I think it's fair to compare how ride-share drivers are held accountable to how hacks are held accountable.



> .........and I am not unjustified in referring to the many UberX drivers a "rookies".


I agree - 100%.
<shrug> I Like rookies. The driver's I've had range the gamut from young dudes trying to earn a few extra bucks to support their spouse & kids - to retired guys who want to get out and about.
It's been a fun experience for me.
I suspect that here in Cleveland we have fewer rides-share drivers trying to do this full-time... and those that do try that, learn pretty quickly it's not for them. I wonder how many hacks here (and in other cities) spend some hours a week driving ride-share?
Don't you think 'the market' will decide what kind of driver and ride the consumer wants? Right now the whole ride-share thing is exploding... but I can't help but think a significant portion of people at one time or another will continue to prefer taxi service (hehe... just try to get an Uber driver to wait more than 5 minutes for you!). While ride-share will continue to impact taxi utilization, I don't see it as wiping out the industry - just changing it. There has never been a mass-market appealing alternative before.



> UberX drivers have not had the opportunities to experience everything that those of us who have been out here for some time have.


I agree - but why would they 'need' to? As you've said, most ride-share drivers are short-lived anyway... they do this to fill-in some need for work or money only until they get back to what it is the do in 'real-life'. As a customer - I don't need someone with 10 years of taxi experience to pick me up from the auto repair shop and drop me at my house, three miles away. If I call for a cab to take me from my suburban house to the airport, I could wait an hour or more... but if I use Uber, a car will be here within 15 minutes - max. And with UberX, the cost will be a lot lower...
by about 50%:
Cab from my house to the airport is $80.
Uber is $42
and for the cost of the cab - $80 - I can call for an UberSELECT and be transported in a BMW/Mercedes/Lexus/Cadillac/Lincoln
I know this just an anecdotal example, applicable only to me, but if this weren't the same evaluation other riders use, then I doubt the systems would be as popular as they are. That being said - I also believe that once Uber has decimated its competition and is forced to comply with regulations, ride-share fares will go up dramatically... coming closer to leveling the playing field for taxi companies. (one can only hope)



> You have not had the ecstatic pleasure of receiving an enormous repair bill for having something replaced on your car of which that your mechanic nevr knew existed until he started taking apart your car.


Well, actually I have... but newer driver's haven't.
They'll learn - as most of us do...
and they will cut back their driving and learn to drive smarter... just as I have -
or they will drop put completely - as I imagine I will at some point.

As always - thanks for the thoughtful comments!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> Not irrelevant at all. You want to claim Uber is somehow superior, yet they don't even accept cash.


*LMAO! wow - are you out of touch.*


> You get guaranteed money and even a verified identity of the passenger and therefore assume none of the risk of potentially being ripped off.


 hehe... and you think that I (and millions of other drivers) think that's a bad thing?! 
That's WHY this is attractive to drivers.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> *LMAO! wow - are you out of touch.*
> hehe... and you think that I (and millions of other drivers) think that's a bad thing?!
> That's WHY this is attractive to drivers.


And there you have it. Zero social responsibility, no requirement to even take cash. Yet compete against taxis which must take cash, because it's a fundamental necessity in NYC's transportation system.

Even frame them as anti-minority, while no Uber driver in NYC to date has gone to the Bronx at 5 am not knowing that they are guaranteed payment.

Merely frame it as 'good for drivers,' or when convenient, 'good for consumers.'


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> How long do you think you would last as a taxi driver?


I understand your question - but not the relevance. I'm not a hack. I don't want to be a hack. If I thought that was attractive to me I'd have become a hack a long time ago. My brother hacked in NYC during his college days and after I heard the first story of winding up on a dark side street with a knife to his throat I knew I'd never be in the driver's seat of a big yellow taxi.



> You have no idea what it's like not know if you're even going to get paid at the end of every ride. Stiffs and runners are fairly rare, but they happen and on more than one occasion I had to get a bit aggressive in demanding payment.


 That sucks. It also doesn't happen with ride-share... one reason it's attractive to drivers.



> What would you do when you are dropping off a pax at the airport and their credit card is declined?


 I'll never be in that position. And neither will any ride-share driver. Apples-to-oranges.
Driving a cab is MUCH harder than being a ride-share driver.
(Although you wouldn't think so from all of the whining we see on this site from drivers! hehe... I'm guilty, too)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> You want to claim Uber is somehow superior....


Say what ever you want - but don't attribute words to me that I never said just to try make your opinions seem reasonable.
I never said (would not say) Uber is superior.
It's different.
It offers things to consumers that they CLEARLY want.
You can tell everyone all you want that they don't really want those things... but they will just laugh at you.
And if that weren't true, there wouldn't be more Uber drivers in NYC toady than Yellow cabs.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> And there you have it. Zero social responsibility, no requirement to even take cash. Yet compete against taxis which must take cash, because it's a fundamental necessity in NYC's transportation system.


Let me know when NYC CONSUMERS start complaining that they have an alternative to cab service.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Say what ever you want - but don't attribute words to me that I never said just to try make you opinions seem reasonable.
> I never said (would not say) Uber is superior.
> It's different.
> It offers things to consumers that they CLEARLY want.
> ...


Yeah, as I said, merely frame it as 'good for the consumer.'

Uber gets to do all of it by avoiding paying for a Medallion with the bs claim that it merely does 'pre arranged rides,' and cherry picking what it wants.

If yellow cabs decide tomorrow they'll no longer take cash and will only give rides to verified passengers with a CC/paypal etc, what happens?


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Let me know when NYC CONSUMERS start complaining that they have an alternative to cab service.


The consumers won't complain. As long as the city breaks it's own laws and allows gypsy cabs to operate without a Medallion, consumers will think it's legitimate.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Eat.Sleep.Drive said:


> But to answer you lame question, I 'll suspect it 'll be about the same percentage of drivers as what is currently being deactivated on these TNC outfits.


The first part of your reply is just flat out taking things out of context - but that's your prerogative.
And it does raise important points 
(even if those points aren't relevant to the thread question of rider satisfaction - as bull-sh*t as that is - with drivers. which makes your reply a lot more *lame* than my question)
All of those things you list are reasons consumers have flocked to use ride-share.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> The consumers won't complain. As long as the city breaks it's own laws and allows gypsy cabs to operate without a Medallion, consumers will think it's legitimate.


too funny... 
you're saying that the Authority that makes the rules doesn't have the authority to make the rules - 
and that that makes their actions illegal. 
Good luck with that. 
It's your city council and your mayor. I hope you vote.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> too funny...
> you're saying that the Authority that makes the rules doesn't have the authority to make the rules -
> and that that makes their actions illegal.
> Good luck with that.
> It's your city council and your mayor. I hope you vote.


No, I'm saying theyr'e ignoring their own rules regarding ehails (classified as street hails), and falsely claiming Uber does pre-arranged rides to allow it to skirt the cost of a Medallion. The TLC was bought out under Bloomberg, and several important TLC members left to work directly for the app companies after doing their dirty work.

No offense but you don't seem to have any grasp on this subject at all and should probably stop commenting on it.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> If yellow cabs decide tomorrow they'll no longer take cash and will only give rides to verified passengers with a CC/paypal etc, what happens?


Is that a serious question?
What happens is that:

NYC hacks become about 1000% safer on the road.
Consumers enjoy never again being harassed for cash by a cab driver when they want to use an credit/debit car or ApplePay or some other secure NFC payment system.
Hacks never again get stiffed on a fare.
And I know you are aware that: you don't have to have a credit card to have a debit card or prepaid MC/VISA/AX card... they're sold at every corner bodega in the city.

And maybe you haven't noticed, but the largest segment of the NYC public transportation system, the subway, has NEVER accepted cash for service -
for 100 years people bought tokens... and now buy transit cards which are no different in use than a prepaid credit card.


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## Taxi Driver in Arizona (Mar 18, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> No, I'm saying theyr'e ignoring their own rules regarding ehails (classified as street hails), and falsely claiming Uber does pre-arranged rides to allow it to skirt the cost of a Medallion. The TLC was bought out under Bloomberg, and several important TLC members left to work directly for the app companies after doing their dirty work.
> 
> No offense but you don't seem to have any grasp on this subject at all and should probably stop commenting on it.


The medallion system is one of the flaws in the way taxis are regulated in NYC. Medallions need to go away and the playing field between cabs and app-based services needs to be leveled.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Is that a serious question?
> What happens is that NYC hacks become about 1000% safer on the road.
> Consumers enjoy never again being harassed for cash by a cab driver when they want to use an credit/debit car or ApplePay or some other secure NFC payment system.
> Hacks never again get stiffed on a fare.
> ...


Hacks are probably safer than Uber drivers overall. You're all distracted driving looking at your phones and racing to pickups. Uber only accepts rides which are verified prepaid, thanks for repeating my point. Not everyone has a card and not everyone's running to a bodega or near a bodega or paying for a prepaid card to take a taxi ride.

You're so utterly clueless that you dont grasp the fundamental necessity of NYC yellow taxis accepting cash.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> No offense but you don't seem to have any grasp on this subject at all and should probably stop commenting on it.


I defer to your experience in NYC... but I also see just how one-sided your views are. 
That makes it impossible to discuss anything with you. <shrug> 
That's your choice. 
NYC is not the center of the universe for anyone other than New Yorkers. 
It SHOULD be important to you - I get that. 
But when you comment as if it's the only city that matters and refuse to understand that cab drivers are not some special class of worker (as opposed to say, MLB or the NFL) then you have no credibility in my eyes.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I defer to your experience in NYC... but I also see just how one-sided your views are.
> That makes it impossible to discuss anything with you. <shrug>
> That's your choice.
> NYC is not the center of the universe for anyone other than New Yorkers.
> ...


They're not one sided. The TLC sold out to Uber and is falsely claiming they do 'pre arranged' rides which anyone who looks at if for five seconds understands is a bullshit way to get around paying for a Medallion. It's no joke, there are 6,000 individual owner operators who gave the city an enormous amount of money for street hail rights and are now being tossed in the garbage like so much trash.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> You're so utterly clueless that you dont grasp the fundamental necessity of NYC yellow taxis accepting cash.


Whatever... you will be proven right or wrong as time marches forward.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> They're not one sided.


Who the heck are you trying to kid?
You're wrong on the facts, wrong on the law and your opinions are not objective.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Taxi Driver in Arizona said:


> The medallion system is one of the flaws in the way taxis are regulated in NYC. Medallions need to go away and the playing field between cabs and app-based services needs to be leveled.


We had that once, pre-Haas Act. You wind up with massive over saturation and drivers who barely make a thing and can't even repair their cars.

Uber is flooding the city with cars, because their plan is to keep cycling down to a lower per mile rate and larger percentage cut. Old drivers drop off when they can no longer make their payments, a new group of suckers takes their place. It's the definition of a race to the bottom.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Who the heck are you trying to kid?
> You're wrong on the facts, wrong on the law and your opinions are not objective.


How the **** is tapping an app on the street and getting a car two minutes later a 'pre arranged' call. It's an on demand e-hail. Illegal.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> Hacks are probably safer than Uber drivers overall.


Ya think? I've only read about a couple of instances of an Uber driver being messed with by a pax. I've heard of and know personally hacks who have been robbed, at gun-point/knife-point - repeatedly. Is it now safer to drive a cab in NYC then it was?



> Uber only accepts rides which are verified prepaid, thanks for repeating my point.


Thanks for making the point that this is what a lot of consumers prefer...
and is one of the founding principles behind ride-share.



> Not everyone has a card and not everyone's running to a bodega or near a bodega or paying for a prepaid card to take a taxi ride.


BS. Buying a prepaid card is no more difficult than buying a NYC transit card. Stop the BS.
If you want to use CASH on a NYC bus, you better have exact change - no bills... no pennies.

TRY this with a taxi:
hey, pick my kid up at Horace Mann and drive him home to 78th & Lex...
and report to me exactly when you pick him up -
and let me know exactly where you are at every moment of the trip -
and notify me when you drop him off.​A cab can't do that.
A car service, that's $150 min.
An Uber... no sweat - $60-$70, tops. (wow - I thought it was a lot less... Uberx in NYC gets $0.40/min!)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> How the **** is tapping an app on the street and getting a car two minutes later a 'pre arranged' call. It's an on demand e-hail. Illegal.


Apparently the NYC TLC and city council, so far, disagree with you.
I KNOW it's not supposed to work that way... but really, is there a difference if that rider steps 10 feet back into the entrance way/lobby and does the same thing?
You're not going to 'beat' the technology or legislate how people use it.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Ya think? I've only read about a couple of instances of an Uber driver being messed with a pax. I've heard of know personally, hacks who ahve been robbed, at gun-point/knife-point - repeatedly. Is it now safer to drive a cab in NYC then it was?
> 
> Thanks for making the point that this is what a lot of consumers perfer... and is one of the foudning principles behind ride-share.
> 
> ...


Yeah, if you're allowed to do illegal ehails with none of the costs of a Medallion, consumers only see a new car and like it. Brilliant argument.

You can't eliminate the requirement for taking cash, period.

Yellow cabs would have had an app years ago but it was blocked because Uber bought off Chhabra and the TLC. The 'pilot program' has been underway for nearly three years.

Again, none of the features of Uber are relevant when theyre being allowed to operate without a Medallion. If you're doing pre arranged calls, then there needs to ba a mandatory time delay, say 20 minutes, to create a clear differentiation between ehails and pre arranged calls.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Apparently the NYC TLC and city council, so far, disagree with you.
> I KNOW it's not supposed to work that way... but really, is there a difference if that rider steps 10 feet back into the entrance way/lobby and does the same thing?
> You're not going to 'beat' the technology or legislate how people use it.


The City Council was going to vote to stop new Uber cars for a year while they did an environmental impact study, but Cuomo ran down from Albany and coerced a couple of members to change their vote. Basically unprecedented, he's obviously now on the Uber payroll.

No ones trying to 'beat technology.' You can't justify illegal activity merely by virtue of utilizing technology. You're not doing pre arranged rides, they're illegal on demand e-hails. You know it and I know it. That's how they function, that's how they're used.

Btw the city is twisting itself in knots now trying to claim one of it's lawyers didn't say Uber rides are not pre arranged a couple of years ago. They'll do anything to break their own laws.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> Cuomo ran down from Albany and coerced a couple of members to change their vote. Basically unprecedented, he's obviously now on the Uber payroll.


Of course - everyone who works to find ways to make the wildly popular service work must be on Uber's payroll.



> No ones trying to 'beat technology.' You can't justify illegal activity merely by virtue of utilizing technology. You're not doing pre arranged rides, they're illegal on demand e-hails. You know it and I know it. That's how they function, that's how they're used.


Heard you the first 18 times.
I guess the mayor, the city council, the TLC and the police just haven't gotten around to enforcing their laws.
VOTE - DEMONSTRATE - and make your voice heard.



> They'll do anything to break their own laws.


Yeah - I've heard that about NY officals... that breaking their own laws is their top priority.



> ...there needs to ba a mandatory time delay, say 20 minutes, to create a clear differentiation between ehails and pre arranged calls.


Great in theory - the problem in practice is that you can't regulate an individual's behavior.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> A lot of cabbies (taxi drivers, hacks) participate on the website here...
> most providing useful and helpful information - others just here to bash Uber and Uber drivers.
> 
> One of the common myths promoted by cab drivers is that 'absolutely anyone' can register and drive Uber. They also imply and sometimes state outright that taxi drivers are all the cream of the crop - and they brush off any question about why so many consumers prefer Uber drivers to taxi drivers.
> ...


Answer is simple

Customers can stop using taxi cabs ???
Right ???

They can easily chose Uber all the time 
????

What is the point ???

Ahh 
You are deflecting your griff on to taxi

You griff comes from Uber. And only 
From Uber

You are top 10 rider basher 
You think the solution is in taxi drivers ?? C'mon....,


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> *LMAO! wow - are you out of touch.*
> hehe... and you think that I (and millions of other drivers) think that's a bad thing?!
> That's WHY this is attractive to drivers.


I can pull 30 post of yours 
Talking shit of uber & uber riders

What got in to you ??!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Customers can stop using taxi cabs ???Right ???


Who are you talking to?
At least half of my customers have never been in taxi -
and the overwhelming majority have certainly never used one on a regular basis.


> They can easily chose Uber all the time????


I never, anywhere, have said that. Is that what YOU are suggesting?


> What is the point ???


Of what?


> You are deflecting your griff on to taxi


Sorry - not familiar with 'griff'.
I looked it up and Urban Dictionary defines GRIFF as:
"A large, testosterone fuled, bear like, porn star. Usualy blessed with a penis exceeding 11"
If that's what you're referring to, thanks... but sadly, that ain't me.​


> You griff comes from Uber. And only From Uber


Hmmm.... I guess that means you don't really mean "griff".
Grief, maybe?
I've got no grief.
I may be the exception, but I've been reasonably happy with how Uber has 'treated' me.
There are things about their system I don't like
(ignoring local laws and ordinances, exploiting a work force for their own benefit while ignoring the impact of their methods and policies... to name just a few)
- but Uber doesn't give me any grief.


> You are top 10 rider basher


Moi? I'm one of the few here that refutes driver's whining about riders!


> You think the solution is in taxi drivers ?? C'mon....,


What are you talking about? The "solution" to what?
I see taxis and ride-share as two related but different services with two nearly completely different labor pools.
Of course the taxi industry doesn't like ride-share. It IS competition - in many ways UNFAIR competition - but that's life. Competition is what feeds progress. Progress is what used to make this country great. We don't stifle innovation only because it disrupts an existing industry.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> I can pull 30 post of yours
> Talking shit of uber & uber riders
> What got in to you ??!


I don't take sides. (and there is ALWAYS more than one side)
I call it like I see it.
I am an equal opportunity basher.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Of course - everyone who works to find ways to make the wildly popular service work must be on Uber's payroll.
> 
> Heard you the first 18 times.
> I guess the mayor, the city council, the TLC and the police just haven't gotten around to enforcing their laws.
> ...


Shouldn't have to demonstrate to get the city to follow it's own laws. The individual owner operators, however, did form a group and did demonstrate at City Hall and the TLC last week. None of the major news outlets gave it any coverage. How convenient, after so much anti-yellow, pro-uber 'coverage' in the post, daily news, etc. Media is bought too.

You really post the most inane nonsense I've ever seen. Of course you can regulate Uber if so inclined. A 20 minute lag time can be inserted.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Who are you talking to?
> At least half of my customers have never been in taxi -
> and the overwhelming majority have certainly never used one on a regular basis.
> 
> ...


Good to see your uber career has turned around


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I don't take sides. (and there is ALWAYS more than one side)
> I call it like I see it.
> I am an equal opportunity basher.


Don't let those cab drivers keep you up
At night

With your great service they won't be around much longer

Travis will give a medal !!!!

LMAO!!!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> You really post the most inane nonsense I've ever seen. Of course you can regulate Uber if so inclined. A 20 minute lag time can be inserted.


lol... and you think MY posts are inanae.
You really have no idea what kind of isolated, self-centered bubble you live in.
The people who make the rules regulations and laws - in your book - aren't allowed to change them or interpret them they want... they have to follow what you want - or they're breaking the law. It's a civil matter... sue why don't you sue them? If you think it rises to the level of criminal behavior, take it to a prosecutor. Listening to you go on and on about how the TLC, the city council and governors office are all in a vast conspiracy against you is just laughable. It's business. It's BIG business and politics. And that's the way this world goes round. If you have more clout than those who have a different agenda, then you'll be successful in getting what you want (no changes to the 100 year old medallion system). This IS a democracy - and we get the best legislation that money can buy.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> lol... and you think MY posts are inanae.
> You really have no idea what kind of isolated, self-centered bubble you live in.
> The people who make the rules regulations and laws - in your book - aren't allowed to change them or interpret them they want... they have to follow what you want - or they're breaking the law. It's a civil matter... sue why don't you sue them? If you think it rises to the level of criminal behavior, take it to a prosecutor. Listening to you go on and on about how the TLC, the city council and governors office are all in a vast conspiracy against you is just laughable. It's business. It's BIG business and politics. And that's the way this world goes round. If you have more clout than those who have a different agenda, then you'll be successful in getting what you want (no changes to the 100 year old medallion system). This IS a democracy - and we get the best legislation that money can buy.


And all this for 2.40 net 
Beautiful


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Don't let those cab drivers keep you up
> At night


Why would they?


> With your great service they won't be around much longer


I don't provide great service.
No mints on the pillow... uh, no pillows.
No Water.
Hell, no food or drink at all in my car.
My service is ok - not great.
I don't get paid enough for it to be great.
It's best with people from out of town who want to know about the city, where to go - what to see... because I really enjoy that.
And younger business people.
I manage to maintain a 4.7 so I can continue driving SELECT where it's possible to eek out a profit without a lot of tips.


> Travis will give a medal !!!!


Can I get the cash instead?
(and who are you kidding - TK doesn't GIVE anything. He takes away)


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> lol... and you think MY posts are inanae.
> You really have no idea what kind of isolated, self-centered bubble you live in.
> The people who make the rules regulations and laws - in your book - aren't allowed to change them or interpret them they want... they have to follow what you want - or they're breaking the law. It's a civil matter... sue why don't you sue them? If you think it rises to the level of criminal behavior, take it to a prosecutor. Listening to you go on and on about how the TLC, the city council and governors office are all in a vast conspiracy against you is just laughable. It's business. It's BIG business and politics. And that's the way this world goes round. If you have more clout than those who have a different agenda, then you'll be successful in getting what you want (no changes to the 100 year old medallion system). This IS a democracy - and we get the best legislation that money can buy.


No, they're not allowed to sell street hail rights (which include ehails) for a Million bucks then decide to hand them to uber for nothing with a false claim that uber does 'pre arranged calls.' You don't get to 'interpret' laws in order to violate them and hand rights illegally to an entity which didn't pay for it.

It absolutely is a conspiracy to break their own laws. They are conspiring to do that.

Maybe you're just a kid playing on his parents' computer, you frankly sound like a 12 year old.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Why would they?
> 
> I don't provide great service.
> No mints on the pillow... uh, no pillows.
> ...


You say you are 4.7 
Cabs are bad 
You say cabs should stop basing 
You are the equal opportunity basher
You say your service is not great

What is it ?
I get it you started a tread 
That you had no rebuttal to 
Right ?


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> And all this for 2.40 net
> Beautiful


WTF are you taking about?

You do know that $2.40 net is only on min X fare rides... 
- maybe 5% of my rides are min fare... 
and that would be on a bad week.

I don't hang around downtown anymore - that's where all of the min fare rides are - bar-hoppers.
But when I was doing the down-town thing, I'd get 6 or so min fare rides an hour: $14.40/hr, with practically no fuel expense... 
and inevitably one of those downtown pick-ups turns out to be a 1/2 hr ride to the airport or out to a suburb.

The only problem with min-fare rides comes up when new drivers accept ride requests that are not close to them and they drive more miles getting to a pick-up than they do for the paid miles.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> No, they're not allowed to sell street hail rights (which include ehails) for a Million bucks then decide to hand them to uber for nothing with a false claim that uber does 'pre arranged calls.' You don't get to 'interpret' laws in order to violate them and hand rights illegally to an entity which didn't pay for it.
> 
> It absolutely is a conspiracy to break their own laws. They are conspiring to do that.
> 
> Maybe you're just a kid playing on his parents' computer, you frankly sound like a 12 year old.


There you go again - making an argument and the trashing your own credibility with personal attacks because you know you're wrong.
A 12 year old with a computer could make a better argument than you have. (so there <rasberry>)
It takes an effort to be a dick... you're pretty good at it.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> WTF are you taking about?
> 
> You do know that $2.40 net is only on min X fare rides...
> - maybe 5% of my rides are min fare...
> ...


Wow you are the future great !!!
Keep it up congrats

I'm more impressed by the minute


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> You say you are 4.7
> Cabs are bad
> You say cabs should stop basing
> You are the equal opportunity basher
> ...


I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say - or what you are talking about.

If you'd like to address my original question, please do:
_(but please identify yourself as a hack if you are one)_
*What percentage of taxi cab drivers would still be driving today
if they were rated by each paying rider for each ride provided (as Uber drivers are)
on a scale of 1 to 5... 
and knowing that if their average rating was 4 or below that they would be fired?
*
And what he hell is it with people feeling it's necessary to put words in other people's mouths just to try to make their own point?
NOWHERE - EVER, have I said "cabs are bad".
What I DID say is the obvious: Consumers LOVE ride-share.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Pondering pondering 14.40 ...........


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say - or what you are talking about.
> 
> If you'd like to address my original question, please do:
> _(but please identify yourself as a hack if you are one)_
> ...


I assume you want me to say all cab drivers are horrible
So they would all be deactivated

do I get the prize ??


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Wow you are the future great !!!
> Keep it up congrats I'm more impressed by the minute


Are you stoned?


----------



## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> There you go again - making an argument and the trashing your own credibility with personal attacks because you know you're wrong.
> A 12 year old with a computer could make a better argument than you have. (so there <rasberry>)
> It takes an effort to be a dick... you're pretty good at it.


Yeah, I'll go with a 12 year old playing with his parents' computer. Shoe fits.

Fair warning to anyone who considers responding to this clown's threads in the future.

If someone's interested in understanding the legal situation with Uber though, I've laid it out plainly. Just re-read this thread, skipping over the mind numbing blather from the thread's author.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Are you stoned?


I think I am 
I almost signed up for the 14.40


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> Yeah, I'll go with a 12 year old playing with his parents' computer. Shoe fits.
> Fair warning for anyone who considers responding to this clown's threads in the future.
> If someone's interested in understanding the legal situation with Uber though, I've laid it out plainly. Just re-read this thread, skipping over the mind numbing blather from the thread's author.


Yes - everyone: take this mumbling non-rideshare driver's advice - 
he knows exactly what his own agenda is and couldn't care less about anyone other than himself. 
He MUST be right - and everyone else from the Governor to the TLC must be wrong.
What a bunch of self-centered, egotistical garbage.


----------



## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Yes - everyone: take this mumbling non-rideshare driver's advice -
> he knows exactly what his own agenda is and couldn't care less about anyone other than himself.
> He MUST be right - and everyone else from the Governor to the TLC must be wrong.
> What a bunch of self-centered, egotistical garbage.


I care about the law. The Governor and TLC insist on breaking it. Because they've been bought.


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> *1. *I understand what you're saying and don't disagree... and maybe I shouldn't have used the word 'accountability' as I did - but I can't think of a better term.
> 
> *2. *Every driver - on every ride is held accountable by the rider.
> 
> ...


1. I see from where you are coming and did fail to draw the connexion in my reply, however if we proceed to...

2. This is the major way in which Uber self-regulates. That Uber self-regulates has helped it in certain jurisdictions. Uber regularly dumps a certain percentage of its drivers--those with poor ratings. Experience has shown that those who have problems with customers have problems in other areas, as well. My experience as a cab company official backs up this.

In the cab business, the Authorities get involved in two ways: A) if someone complains, they must address the complaint; B) there are the Hack Inspectors who patrol allegedly to make sure that everything is done properly, but, in reality, they are out there mostly to extort revenue from the drivers. In some jursidictions, such as New York, as Hackenstein has mentioned, there is a "point system". I do not understand fully how New York's TLC Point System works, but, it appears that each violation carries a certain number of "points". Much like the Driver's Licence Point System, at certain levels, certain disciplinary measures come into play. There has been agitation here for years to implement something similar. This is one of the few things that the Washington drivers have resisted successfully, of late. Given the number of documented abuses of cab drivers by both Police and Hack Inspectors, a driver easily could be written out of business in *ONE STOP.*

The rule here, and in most places is that as long as there is no complaint or observed egregious wrongdoing, the driver can stay in business. He can give rides ranging from poor through mediocre to excellent and remain in business. It wold generate too many lawsuits, here, at least, if a driver were to lose his licence over vague customer feedback such as that provided by Uber's Star system. Yanking a licence requires specific cause or an established pattern of abuse. A private operation has no such constraints.

3. Thank you for that statement. More than a few people would do similarly. The eCkspUrTZz here seem to think that the proliferation of applications will make the street hail disappear. Incorrect. It is simply too easy to walk out onto the street, raise your hand and have a vehicle stop. Now, as you state in part of your post that I edited out, if it is busy and you can not hail something, calling something is Plan B. One thin g that you do omit is Brand Loyalty. In some jurisdictions, such as New York, where the cabs have all been the same color for years, that is not that big a deal. It has become less of a big deal in Washington. When I got my first hack face, it was still a big deal. People would try to hail a cab from this or that company. If they could not find a cab from Company X to hail, they would call and wait for it. That happens rarely, if ever, any more. It will happen much less, now that the City Council has ordered that all cabs to be the same color. The e-Hails have started a minor resurgence of this with a variation. There are some Uber users who prefer to summon an Uber Taxi, rather than hail anything. They have various reasons, which I will omit here, for brevity's sake.

4. Suffice it to state, for now, that it can be done.

5. My passengers from Cincinnati tell me is that half of the UberX drivers there are retired corporate types with fat pensions who simply do it for something to do when they are not at a Bengals or Red Legs game.

6. You have one right here.

7. .........and well it should, but lkeep in mind that the marketplace must be fair. That is not the case, in most markets.

8. Yes, there are times when people prefer a taxi over UberX. My passengers tell me about it all the time. For the sake, again, of brevity, I will not go into it here.

9. I do not either. It already has changed it, at least here, it has.

10. Yes, but can the dilettante FIND the repair shop where he is supposed to pick you up? This is one of the major gripes that the users here have about UberX.

11. I see its happening less due to Uber's eliminating its competition. Marry, Sirrah, I would see its happening due to a strong competitor's appearing, offering a better calibre of driver and snatching Uber's better drivers as it promises better pay. The other thing that would bring up the rates would be that the wrong passenger was in the back seat of the wrong UberX at the wrong time. Something would go South, and there would be calls for all sorts of rules and regulations. Meanwhile, the taxi companies and drivers would chime in with "We kept telling you, but since all of you are so much smarter than we are................" A final possibility would be the exposure of corruption. A poster subsequent to me has raised this question. You should not dismiss that, lightly. Those of us who have been in this business for some time know what a rat smells like and know when we are smelling one. Trust me, there IS a rat running around, in fact, more than one.



Hackenstein said:


> Even frame them as anti-minority, while no Uber driver in NYC to date has gone to the Bronx at 5 am not knowing that they are guaranteed payment.


Hackenstein's gripe goes double in Washington. I do not know what the rules are in New York regarding front money, but here, the cab drivers are specifically barred from asking for it. We are not permitted even to do an "authorisation only" run on a credit card to make sure that it is good. We used to have that privilege under the Zone System, but thanks to the Hotel, Restaurant and Tourism trade groups, the DCTC has trampled our Common Law Right as merchants to protect our stock-in-trade. This is yet another example of the hypocrisy and double stadards that our regulators practice. You will not get that hotel room without showing that credit card and having it run, or without paying cash up front. The restaurant can make you pay the bill when the food and drinks are brought to the table. You will not get that tour package without paying up front. But I must transport a street hail to some horrid rathole and hope that he pays me.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> you're saying that the Authority that makes the rules doesn't have the authority to make the rules -
> and that that makes their actions illegal.





Hackenstein said:


> No, I'm saying theyr'e ignoring their own rules regarding ehails (classified as street hails), and falsely claiming Uber does pre-arranged rides to allow it to skirt the cost of a Medallion. The TLC was bought out under Bloomberg, and several important TLC members left to work directly for the app companies after doing their dirty work.


What Hackenstein is trying to tell you is that the TLC is breaking its own rules. We have similar to New York, here. In New York, the Regulatory Body is breaking its own rules. In DC, the Legislature is breaking its own laws.



Hackenstein said:


> Btw the city is twisting itself in knots now trying to claim one of it's lawyers didn't say Uber rides are not pre arranged a couple of years ago. They'll do anything to break their own laws.


This is one of our gripes. The Regulators will not follow their own rules; the Legislators will not follow their own laws. When things like that happen, you follow the money.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> Of course the taxi industry doesn't like ride-share. It IS in many ways UNFAIR competition - but that's life. Competition is what feeds progress. We don't stifle innovation only because it disrupts an existing industry.


You can not excuse the toleration of unfair competition as "life". The marketplace is supposed to be kept fair. Yes, you can have innovation and progress, but the innovator must follow the same rules as the status quo players. Do not stifle it, but do keep in mind that the definition of "stifling" is not requiring everyone to follow the rules.


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> You don't hand rights illegally to an entity which didn't pay for it.


......oh the "entity" "paid" for it, allright. It just did not go to the appropriate agency, pay and get a receipt.


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> when I was doing the down-town thing, I'd get 6 or so min fare rides an hour: $14.40/hr, with practically no fuel expense...


If I am running only $14,40 per hour in the taxi, I go home. It is too slow and I am wasting my time out there if I am running only $14,40 per hour. I have a Fusion Hybrid for my taxi, so my fuel expense is low, compared to most.

The gross in the taxi is equivalent to the UberX net-to-driver. Other than a stupid-looking, overpriced paint job; a top light that is overpriced and makes our cabs look like cabs in Pakistan or Indonesia that we neither needed nor wanted and a meter that we neither needed nor wanted, the taxi driver's and UberX driver's expenses are similar.

Thus if I am running ony $14,40 per hour in my UberXmobile, well, I have run enough work to stay in the game for a little while longer, so, I am going home to mow the lawn, ride my bicycle, and, if the Nationals are at home, I might ride my bicycle to the park and buy a ticket.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Damn cab drivers !!!!


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## Just_in (Jun 29, 2014)

20yearsdriving said:


> I can pull 30 post of yours
> Talking shit of uber & uber riders
> 
> What got in to you ??!


I know. This guy is supposed to be a Select Driver but he talks like a Newbie UberX Driver..


----------



## Just_in (Jun 29, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say - or what you are talking about.
> 
> If you'd like to address my original question, please do:
> _(but please identify yourself as a hack if you are one)_
> ...


Dude. Who care's about your stupid question. Every God Damn UberX driver complains about the stupid rating system.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Just_in said:


> Dude. Who care's about your stupid question. Every God Damn UberX driver complains about the stupid rating system.


I think he feels it's unfair 
Cabs don't have a rating system

Or 
If they did there would all be deactivated


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

20yearsdriving said:


> I think he feels it's unfair
> Cabs don't have a rating system
> 
> Or
> If they did there would all be deactivated


Actually yellow cabs do have a rating system. It's a little complicated, this link explains it. http://tinyurl.com/kxn6cef


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> Actually yellow cabs do have a rating system.




Uber Taxi has a rating system as well. It is the same wrongheaded, misguided star system that applies to the other levels of Uber. It is the same star system about which Uber fails miserably at edge-uh-mah-kaytinn their users. .......funny how they can be so good at eddikaytin' their users about not tipping, but can not educate them about using the Rocket Science Star System.


----------



## hanging in there (Oct 1, 2014)

Another Uber Driver said:


> If I am running only $14,40 per hour in the taxi, I go home. It is too slow and I am wasting my time out there if I am running only $14,40 per hour. I have a Fusion Hybrid for my taxi, so my fuel expense is low, compared to most.
> 
> The gross in the taxi is equivalent to the UberX net-to-driver. Other than a stupid-looking, overpriced paint job; a top light that is overpriced and makes our cabs look like cabs in Pakistan or Indonesia that we neither needed nor wanted and a meter that we neither needed nor wanted, the taxi driver's and UberX driver's expenses are similar.
> 
> Thus if I am running ony $14,40 per hour in my UberXmobile, well, I have run enough work to stay in the game for a little while longer, so, I am going home to mow the lawn, ride my bicycle, and, if the Nationals are at home, I might ride my bicycle to the park and buy a ticket.


The thing is, to run $14.40 per hour in that example, doing 6 minimum UberX fares per hour in a busy bar district, sounds like the kind of work that would drain someone pretty fast. That is one every ten minutes, waiting for the ping, driving to the ping, finding/waiting for the drunk pax in a sea of drunks who have no idea where they are half the time, dealing with potential problems of 6 groups of drunk pax in your car per hour all of whom could cause any number of problems we talk about every day, such as vomiting, peeing, spilled drinks, slammed doors, more people than seatbelts, loud and obnoxious pax who are overly demanding then wind up rating you low, and to do that kind of volume of even super short rides per hour, there is no down time whatsoever, no time for gassing up, snacks, bathroom etc.. Much higher chance of getting into an accident, or getting a ticket of some kind. In order to keep up that pace for long, I'd have to be making much more than that. It just wouldn't be worth it for me.

But then, I guess in Uber's world, all that matters is the math, they don't see the real world side of it. They would say "You can make $24/hr! ($14.40 after their cut, or closer to $10-12/hr after prorated car running expenses, even if they are short hops, it does still add up). Then they would say "If you work about 60 hours/wk at $24/hr you could make about $6000/mo! That's $72k/yr!" Ubermath.

Maybe I'm spoiled but most of the time when I give someone a short ride in my taxi and get ten bucks, I'm pretty pissed about it unless I can get about 3 or 4 ten dollar rides per hour, then I'm ok with it, but still feel like I'm getting run pretty hard for the money. In my situation, considering my taxi lease and the hours I put in, I figure that I am basically paying an average of what would be an equivalent "commission" of 15% of my gross, so a fair comparison in my case would be $30/hr gross - 15% = $25.50/hr gross - commission. So if I gave 3 rides per hour in a similar situation in my taxi (worked half as hard), I'd be making almost double, and still would not be happy about it.


----------



## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

hanging in there said:


> In order to keep up that pace for long, I'd have to be making much more than that. It just wouldn't be worth it for me.
> 
> "If you work about 60 hours/wk at $24/hr you could make about $6000/mo! That's $72k/yr!" Ubermath.
> 
> Maybe I'm spoiled but most of the time when I give someone a short ride in my taxi and get ten bucks, I'm pretty pissed about it unless I can get about 3 or 4 ten dollar rides per hour, then I'm ok with it, but still feel like I'm getting run pretty hard for the money. In my situation, considering my taxi lease and the hours I put in, I figure that I am basically paying an average of what would be an equivalent "commission" of 15% of my gross, so a fair comparison in my case would be $30/hr gross - 15% = $25.50/hr gross - commission. So if I gave 3 rides per hour in a similar situation in my taxi (worked half as hard), I'd be making almost double, and still would not be happy about it.


In order to keep up that pace and deal with the stuff that I edited out, yes, I agree. I would have to be grossing more than thirty bananas in one hour. Doing the Downtown to Capitol Hill and back shuttle here for ten to twelve bananas per trip, in the daytime is not so bad. The traffic might rot, but you learn how to dodge some of it and deal with what you can not dodge. If they come fast and furious, you can do four of those shuttles (two round trips) in one hour. You must do them on street hails, though. Chase Uber Taxi pings for that, and, unless you are on top of them, you could drop to three one-ways or one round trip per hour. You get even less on UberX. The cab locals here, in the City, at least, are pretty good. You can make money at them as long as you do not have to run for them. Funny, in the suburbs, you hate locals, but in the City, they are allright. Part of the problem is that in the suburbs, there are not as many street hails as there are in the City. You must drive longer distances in the suburbs between jobs, as well.

Ubermath dreamed up by Uber Rocket Scientists and believed by prospects once they drink the Uber Kool-Aid.

What I typed about running between jobs.........I do not know if it is any better in the City of Los Angeles, but then, from what I understand, you do not have to accept street hails there. In fact, from what I understand, most drivers in the City of Los Angeles prefer to go to a stand and wait for a call or walk-up. Here, we do many street hails. You do not run for them, so you do not have to worry about getting there and is someone going to be there when you get there.

The three rides for ten bananas apiece in my cab in an hour would be allright, as long as they were street hails. If I am chasing calls, I expect better.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Just_in said:


> I know. This guy is supposed to be a Select Driver but he talks like a Newbie UberX Driver..


Think what you want.
But rideshare put enough cash in my pocket (after all expenses, including depreciation)
to pay my monthly mortgage...
driving only part-time when I felt like (eves/weekends)
while not driving at all in May and June.

Everyone should be as naive as I am.



> 20yearsdriving : I think he feels it's unfair Cabs don't have a rating system
> Or If they did there would all be deactivated


No... neither.
I believe that if cabbies were rated the same way that rideshare drivers are, their attrition rate would be similar to rideshare drivers. Rideshare dirvers do not have the same protections of due process 'enjoyed' by regulated hacks. A really bad, offensive or dangerous rideshare driver is far more likely to be 'gone', more rapidly than a cabbie.

But that's as it should be, considering that *most* rideshare drivers do this to supplement their income - while *most* cabbies depend on their work to make a living.



> Another Uber Driver : If I am running only $14,40 per hour in the taxi, I go home.


Exactly. But then again, that same $14.40/hr here is more like $20/hr in NYC due to the rate difference by market.
If I can't average $15-$17/hr here, then I'll park it, too.

And while everyone is jumping all over the $14.40 example - they are ignoring that it was illustrative of the min you'd earn in a market with a $5min fare, doing ONLY min fare rides.
And that's not what any driver averages... it's the low.
In NYC, with its $10/min fare that low would be more like $29/hr net.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

We should re-visit this in a few months 
I want to see casualties
My money says cabbies will still be around


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

This how & why they are not going anywhere 
Good old hustle 
Years in the making


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Then you go legit


----------



## hanging in there (Oct 1, 2014)

Another Uber Driver said:


> In order to keep up that pace and deal with the stuff that I edited out, yes, I agree. I would have to be grossing more than thirty bananas in one hour. Doing the Downtown to Capitol Hill and back shuttle here for ten to twelve bananas per trip, in the daytime is not so bad. The traffic might rot, but you learn how to dodge some of it and deal with what you can not dodge. If they come fast and furious, you can do four of those shuttles (two round trips) in one hour. You must do them on street hails, though. Chase Uber Taxi pings for that, and, unless you are on top of them, you could drop to three one-ways or one round trip per hour. You get even less on UberX. The cab locals here, in the City, at least, are pretty good. You can make money at them as long as you do not have to run for them. Funny, in the suburbs, you hate locals, but in the City, they are allright. Part of the problem is that in the suburbs, there are not as many street hails as there are in the City. You must drive longer distances in the suburbs between jobs, as well.
> 
> Ubermath dreamed up by Uber Rocket Scientists and believed by prospects once they drink the Uber Kool-Aid.
> 
> ...


I am only licensed for OC not LA county. There seems to be less regulation in my market than in yours. We are encouraged to get a deposit or a credit card validation up front in any questionable and/or large fare. We can choose to pickup street hails, or not. I prefer street hails when I can get them, unless the pax looks sketchy. We have no medallion system so it's easier and less expensive to get into a cab, and we have no cap on the number of cabs on the road in OC (I wish they did.) BTW, yes, lots of drivers like to sit and wait at the stands but I prefer to keep moving, I hate to wait even if waiting nets me a bigger better fare on average.


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## Eat.Sleep.Drive (Jul 16, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> We should re-visit this in a few months
> I want to see casualties
> My money says cabbies will still be around


You mean like this case here;

https://uberpeople.net/threads/cabby-infiltration.17527/

Classic! Kudos to you 20yearsdriving and Huberis. I would 've just blurted out fart at that guy and moved on hehe


----------



## Eat.Sleep.Drive (Jul 16, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> On the front end - rider satisfaction - I think it's fair to compare how ride-share drivers are held accountable to how hacks are held accountable.


Cab customers have a humane way to rate a driver through the TIP button; it gives em a choice of "Other, 15%, 20%, 25%". 
There is also a five star button that comes up if they prefer to put something there, but 99% don't bother with that nonsense. They know it's BS.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Eat.Sleep.Drive said:


> You mean like this case here;
> 
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/cabby-infiltration.17527/
> 
> Classic! Kudos to you 20yearsdriving and Huberis. I would 've just blurted out fart at that guy and moved on hehe


That was a good tread

It reminded me of friend , baby Markisonit


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> My money says cabbies will still be around


Did anyone here EVER say that cabbies won't be around in a few months?
That would be absurd.
Why would you even say that?

But you can be sure that you will see changes to the taxi cab industry.

As the hacks here point out, too many people with a lot invested in the cab industry have too much invested for cities to just completely abandon the outdated systems. While cities will be forced to write new regulations (as they are now doing) and keep re-writing them until they get it 'right'... they also will not ignore the fact (as some cabbies do) that while owner's investments in medallions have been expensive, the overwhelming number of medallions out there have already returned that investment to the owners many times over - and even at the lower value of the medallion today - the vast majority are still worth more today than what they cost initially.

It is far more complex than anyone here has yet mentioned.

Oh... and for those medallion holders who financed their medallion(s)?
How is that any different from buying stock on margin?
How is that any different than a rideshare driver financing a car a year ago just so they can drive Uber, only to have Uber cut the rates 3 times in the last year.

IMO - no one who makes an investment in a private enterprise has the right to claim that the public owes them something if that investment goes south.
That's why it's called an 'investment'.
All investment has inherent risk.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> Uber Taxi has a rating system as well. It is the same wrongheaded, misguided star system that applies to the other levels of Uber. It is the same star system about which Uber fails miserably at edge-uh-mah-kaytinn their users.


Except that a poor record of Uber ratings for an UberTAXI will only lose the driver access to the UberTAXI system... 
not their job as a hack, right?



> .......funny how they can be so good at eddikaytin' their users about not tipping, but can not educate them about using the Rocket Science Star System.


Ha! well said.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> *1. *But rideshare put enough cash in my pocket (after all expenses, including depreciation)
> to pay my monthly mortgage...
> driving only part-time when I felt like (eves/weekends)
> while not driving at all in May and June.
> ...


1. Keep in mind that you are doing Select. Select pays better than X. It is the UberX rates about which the rideshare drivers are complaining, myself not excluded. It is the UberX rates that compel me to drive UberX only enough to stay in the game, and, drive the taxi more.

2. It would depend on who was making the decisions. A private firm has no constraints on whom it keeps and whom it discharges. While the Regulators here slowly have been eroding our Due Process Rights, there are some rights that they have not succeeded in eliminating Y-E-T. Thus, there remain a few constraints on the Regulators regarding whose licences that they can or can not revoke. Despite the erosion of most Due Process Rights here, it is likely that denying renewal based on a vague and subjective star rating system would fail in court. There must be concrete cause or a documented pattern of abuse to deny renewal (either that, or you owe the D.C. Government money--but if you pay that, they must renew if there is no other reason to deny it).

If you were to suggest that the cab ratings would be submitted to the cab companies and they decided whom to discharge and whom to retain based on those ratings, there may or may not be a similar rate of attrition between cab 
drivers and rideshare drivers.

3. If the best that I am doing is seventeen dollars per hour, I am not long for the lawn, the ballpark or the bicycle.



20yearsdriving said:


> We should re-visit this in a few months
> I want to see casualties
> My money says cabbies will still be around


My money agrees with yours.



hanging in there said:


> We can choose to pickup street hails, or not. I prefer street hails when I can get them, unless the pax looks sketchy. BTW, yes, lots of drivers like to sit and wait at the stands but I prefer to keep moving, I hate to wait even if waiting nets me a bigger better fare on average.


We can not choose to pick up the street hails, or not, we must pick them up. In fact, the Authorities here like to set up hack traps where they have people who hail cabs. Some of them look allright, but at times they do put people out there who look a bit sketchy.

There is this yellow journalist here named Russ Ptacek, I call him Rusted Puketastesick. He loves to set up cab drivers, but, when cab drivers get hurt, robbed, run out on or killed, he is nowhere to be found. When the Regulators trample the Constitutional, Legislated and Common Law protections of the drivers, either he  is nowhere to be found or is found: cheering for the harm inflicted on the drivers. He cheers when the Legislature allows for double standards and unfair competition.

I agree with you on keeping moving. If I sit on a stand, it is to read the web on my smart telephone, read a paper or take a nap. Other than that, I keep moving. I do not sit on a stand to wait for a walkup or a call; I never did. I still receive calls as I move, and did, even on voice dispatch. There are more street hails here, than there are stand walkups, unless it is a hotel, museum or monument.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> Did anyone here EVER say that cabbies won't be around in a few months?
> That would be absurd. Why would you even say that?
> 
> But you can be sure that you will see changes to the taxi cab industry.
> ...


If you will read the various topics on this forum, there are more than a few rideshare drivers who have designated themselves as part of a "New Elite" and never cease to proclaim the demise of the cab business. These are the same drivers who never cease to bash cab drivers and companies and perpetuate stereotypes and myths,

There have been changes, already.

Your use of "outdated" is not the best choice of terms. It suggests that you do, in fact, believe in the eventual demise of the cab business. It reeks of the elitism that I have cited above.

The cities are writing new regulations, in totally the wrong way. Further, they are enshrining unfair competition and tilting the playing field in favour of the unregulated competition while imposing more, oppressive and unduly burdensome regulation on an already overregulated player. It should be regulate all, or regulate none. It should not be do not regulate on player while you overregulate another.

While you cite the "overwhelming majority", what do you do about those who got reamed? Since they are in the minority, is it allright for the Regulators to tilt the playing field against them even more? These people must pay off an asset that is underwater and face a more difficult time doing it. But that is allright, as long as the unregulated player makes the "proper arrangements".


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Except that a poor record of Uber ratings for an UberTAXI will only lose the driver access to the UberTAXI system...
> not their job as a hack, right?


That would be correct. See above for more on the subject.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> If you will read the various topics on this forum, there are more than a few rideshare drivers who have designated themselves as part of a "New Elite" and never cease to proclaim the demise of the cab business. These are the same drivers who never cease to bash cab drivers and companies and perpetuate stereotypes and myths,


I don't read all of the topic threads on this forum - and I give all closed minded posters the same credibility as I give all close-minded people who post stuff. Zero. I never said anything (anywhere) about the demise of cabs. No one in this topic thread - the one we're involved in and discussing - has made that suggestion either. For someone to accuse me of saying or implying that is just self-serving nonsense.


> There have been changes, already.
> Your use of "outdated" is not the best choice of terms. It suggests that you do, in fact, believe in the eventual demise of the cab business. It reeks of the elitism that I have cited above.


That's not at all what I mean by 'outdated'.
Really, is there any doubt the TNC's have struck gold with consumers and a nerve with cab companies by implementing a call and pay system that works seamlessly for [casual] drivers and riders advantage?
That's new thinking that disrupts 'outdated' systems.
But I'll say this again:
I can't imagine the rideshare systems (at this point anyway) doing much to interfere when a rider prefers a street hail in a major metro area.


> The cities are writing new regulations, in totally the wrong way.


Agreed... and that's why I said "*write and re-write*" until they get it right.


> While you cite the "overwhelming majority", what do you do about those who got reamed?


It's a fair question, but again, IMO, the public is not responsible for bailing out private investment. If there is demonstrable financial damage caused by a city's failures or actions, then there is cause for civil litigation. That's what civil courts are for. If someone invested $500k-$1mil based on promises made by the city and they have been damaged financially - and can prove it... then they should file suit.
I'd follow that litigation with interest.


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## Scenicruiser (Oct 17, 2014)

20yearsdriving said:


> Then you go legit


Or outlaw...


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> No one in this topic thread - the one we're involved in and discussing - has made that suggestion either. For someone to accuse me of saying or implying that is just self-serving nonsense.
> 
> That's not at all what I mean by 'outdated'.
> Really, is there any doubt the TNC's have struck gold with consumers and a nerve with cab companies by implementing a call and pay system that works seamlessly for [casual] drivers and riders advantage?
> ...


By "here", I had thought that you meant this forum, not this topic. Agreed, I have not seen a poster to this topic state that, Y-E-T.

It is not the "seamless call and pay system" in and of itself that strikes a nerve with the "established" or "legacy" companies, it is the government's permitting the companies who operate these "seamless" systems to operate under a different set of rules while they do the same thing that the "legacy" companies do. Everyone who is doing the same thing must operate under the same rules. That is not happening. What disrupts the "outdated" systems is the "innovative" system's operating regulation free (or relatively so) while the "outdated" system must operate under overregulation.

Every time that they re-write here, it goes harder on the "established", "legacy" or "outdated" systems. They "write and re-write" until they get it more and more wrong, if it is possible to be "more and more wrong". I use that description for lack of a better one, for the moment, at least.

Correct, the public is not responsible for bailing out private investment, unless private investment is "too big to fail", that is. Still, the government has a duty not to inflict harm on private investment or allow a competitor to inflict harm by taking unfair advantage. If the government fails at that, it has a duty to rectify that. It takes money to get this rectified, something most "legacy" companies do not have. On the other hand, the unfair competitor has money to buy his unfair advantages..........and do not dismiss that as "life". It is wrong and its wrong must be kept in the forefront until the wrongdoers are exposed.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> Agreed, I have not seen a poster to this topic state that, Y-E-T.
> It is not the "seamless call and pay system" in and of itself that strikes a nerve with the "established" or "legacy" companies, it is the government's permitting the companies who operate these "seamless" systems to operate under a different set of rules while they do the same thing that the "legacy" companies do. Everyone who is doing the same thing must operate under the same rules. That is not happening. What disrupts the "outdated" systems is the "innovative" system's operating regulation free (or relatively so) while the "outdated" system must operate under overregulation.
> Every time that they re-write here, it goes harder on the "established", "legacy" or "outdated" systems. They "write and re-write" until they get it more and more wrong, if it is possible to be "more and more wrong". I use that description for lack of a better one, for the moment, at least.
> Correct, the public is not responsible for bailing out private investment, unless private investment is "too big to fail", that is. Still, the government has a duty not to inflict harm on private investment or allow a competitor to inflict harm by taking unfair advantage. If the government fails at that, it has a duty to rectify that. It takes money to get this rectified, something most "legacy" companies do not have. On the other hand, the unfair competitor has money to buy his unfair advantages..........and do not dismiss that as "life". It is wrong and its wrong must be kept in the forefront until the wrongdoers are exposed.


Ha... well, can we agree to live in real-time and not set-up straw-man arguments?
Yes... While I agree that the TNCs need to be made much more accountable (and be subject to regulation!) and while I agree that the two business models provide related and/or similar services - I don't believe they are the same. It might harder for someone who lives and works in a major metro area to understand, but TNC have brought transportation services to areas where there was little or no service at all. Remarkably, a lot of city dwellers don't believe this, dismiss it as unimportant (as they do most things not city-centric) and poo-pooh it as being a minor impact. TNC's do what cabbies and cab companies don't do. 
So maybe a partial solution is to heavily regulate TNC pickups within major metro areas?
It could be done pretty easily - the same way that the TNCs use Geo-Fencing now to block ride requests from some airports. Aren't they doing this now in Broward County?

Having access to capital is not 'unfair advantage. Cab companies that spent millions on medallions could have also raised capital if they had a business model anyone wanted to invest in. That's how markets work. Taking advantage of a system that has not been prepared legally is what the TNCs have done. That's not an unfair advantage either... it may be cynical - evil even, but that's what companies do. Local governments not having the power to stop the train-wreck is what has caused the 'unfair advantage' - and I agree it needs to be dealt with - should have already been dealt with. But we live in a world where there is what 'should' happen vs. and the reality of politics, greed, power and corruption.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> 1. Keep in mind that you are doing Select. Select pays better than X.


yes - I know I drive UberSELECT and that without those SELECT fares this is not something I would be doing at all. But the difference isn't that great... only 20% of my rides are SELECT (in a good week). If it weren't for those $2.25/mi rides... along with the tips I receive which total about 20% of my weekly total fares, then this would be a losing proposition (since my care has higher operating costs than an efficient hybrid UberX). The difference isn't much - but it's enough to keep me on board part-time.


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## hanging in there (Oct 1, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> yes - I know I drive UberSELECT and that without those SELECT fares this is not something I would be doing at all. But the difference isn't that great... only 20% of my rides are SELECT (in a good week). If it weren't for those $2.25/mi rides... along with the tips I receive which total about 20% of my weekly total fares, then this would be a losing proposition (since my care has higher operating costs than an efficient hybrid UberX). The difference isn't much - but it's enough to keep me on board part-time.


"along with the tips I receive which total about 20% of my weekly total fares"

That deserves a whole new thread unto itself. Please do tell. With Uber driving? And mostly (80%) UberX? That's more typical of taxi driving tips!

I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just fascinated.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

hanging in there said:


> "along with the tips I receive which total about 20% of my weekly total fares"
> That deserves a whole new thread unto itself. Please do tell. With Uber driving? And mostly (80%) UberX? That's more typical of taxi driving tips!
> I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just fascinated.


Yeah... and it's held steady since I started tracking it on Jan 1.
As most Uber drivers will recount - we don't get tipped OFTEN.
In my case, only between 5 and 10% of my riders tip.
But the tips we do get far exceed the 10%-20% norm received by cab drivers.
Even Lyft drivers seem to only get a small portion of the pax tipping - they use the app, and choose just 1 or 2 dollars.

When I do get a tip it is often $5 on a $5 fare... 100%, or $10 on a $25 fare, 40%... like that.
So it comes out that my 5% of riders who tip, are providing me with a 20% boost to my revenues...
and this is why I am not on the "add a tip button in the app" bandwagon.
I just want Uber to stop actively discouraging tipping.

Ok, all of that is a lie.
At the end of a ride I just refuse to unlock the doors until they tip me.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Anyone want to take a crack at explaining this? (From Sept 2014) http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/data-uber-driving-competitors-nyc-article-1.2137714

(NYC)

Uber cars: 'More than' 13,700 (13,750) affiliated with Uber bases

Trips per day: 34,271

Huh?

2.5 trips per day average?

Say the actual number of cars on the road per day is half that affiliated w/ bases.

5 trips per day average?

Who's lying here and in which direction. No one is making it at 5 trips per day unless they're $75 each and that's clearly not the case.

I get that there are part timers but it doesn't add up unless what, there are only 2000 full timers and the rest work for pocket change or as supplemental trips?


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## hanging in there (Oct 1, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Yeah... and it's held steady since I started tracking it on Jan 1.
> As most Uber drivers will recount - we don't get tipped OFTEN.
> In my case, only between 5 and 10% of my riders tip.
> But the tips we do get far exceed the 10%-20% norm received by cab drivers.
> ...


Hmmm, math-wise, the locked doors makes more sense, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this. If 10% of your pax tipped you 100% of the average fare, then let's say on $1000 in fares for the week, $100 of those fares (10% of your pax) tipped 100%, which would be $100 in tips. That would come out to 10% in tips. The only way for it to come out to 20% would be for 20% of your pax to tip you 100% of the fare, or for 40% of your pax to tip you 50% of the fare. Unless the pax who take really long and/or expensive rides are the ones also laying the big fat tips on you. Even then it's hard to fathom.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

hanging in there said:


> Hmmm, math-wise, the locked doors makes more sense, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this. If 10% of your pax tipped you 100% of the average fare, then let's say on $1000 in fares for the week, $100 of those fares (10% of your pax) tipped 100%, which would be $100 in tips. That would come out to 10% in tips. The only way for it to come out to 20% would be for 20% of your pax to tip you 100% of the fare, or for 40% of your pax to tip you 50% of the fare. Unless the pax who take really long and/or expensive rides are the ones also laying the big fat tips on you. Even then it's hard to fathom.


It's not rocket science.
You're trying to come up with an avg - which is fine.
But life doesn't happen in averages - it happens in real-time.
As I described - sometimes a tip is $5, sometimes, $10 or $20... sometimes a few bucks.
At the end of the week if I've done a total of $350 in total fares, I've also received around $70 in tips.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> Anyone want to take a crack at explaining this? (From Sept 2014) http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/data-uber-driving-competitors-nyc-article-1.2137714
> (NYC)
> Uber cars: 'More than' 13,700 (13,750) affiliated with Uber bases
> Trips per day: 34,271
> ...


Interesting numbers (and article).
I suspect - if Uber drivers in NYC are anything even remotely similar to metro divers in other cities - that your last conclusion is correct: there are very few full-time drivers. Uber's own numbers say that the average # of rides provided by any individual driver are very low. The majority of ride-share drivers only drive a limited number of days per week - and only for limited hours. I am now putting in maybe 20-25 hrs/wk on evenings. I work during the day... and I'd bet most ride-share drivers do have other jobs or work to do as well. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there were only 1,000 or 2,000 drivers on the road in NYC at any given time. I also think that's is why the 'churn' of ride-share drivers is high - and why the TNCs have no trouble on-boarding new drivers. Driving ride-share is not a commitment to a career path... it's a means to an end.

It's also probably a big mistake to assume that all 13,700 Uber affiliated cars/drivers actually drive every week. Many drivers do not drive that regularly.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Interesting numbers (and article).
> I suspect - if Uber drivers in NYC are anything even remotely similar to metro divers in other cities - that your last conclusion is correct: there are very few full-time drivers. Uber's own numbers say that the average # of rides provided by any individual driver are very low. The majority of ride-share drivers only drive a limited number of days per week - and only for limited hours. I am now putting in maybe 20-25 hrs/wk on evenings. I work during the day... and I'd bet most ride-share drivers do have other jobs or work to do as well. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there were only 1,000 or 2,000 drivers on the road in NYC at any given time. I also think that's is why the 'churn' of ride-share drivers is high - and why the TNCs have no trouble on-boarding new drivers. Driving ride-share is not a commitment to a career path... it's a means to an end.


Seeking Alpha apparently agrees, 2000 full timers. Even now, with 20,000 registered drivers (10%). http://seekingalpha.com/article/3448986-once-again-nyc-data-shows-resilience-of-taxi-medallions

What it looks like, as they state in the comments, is a whole lot of Ubers come out for a few quick surge trips and split.

Which begs the question, what is the price of the average NYC Uber ride overall.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> Seeking Alpha apparently agrees, 2000 full timers. Even now, with 20,000 registered drivers (10%). http://seekingalpha.com/article/3448986-once-again-nyc-data-shows-resilience-of-taxi-medallions
> What it looks like, as they state in the comments, is a whole lot of Ubers come out for a few quick surge trips and split.
> Which begs the question, what is the price of the average Uber ride overall.


NYC is different than ANY other market (than *maybe* SF).

The mileage from the Battery to Wash Hts is only 10 miles and the island is only, what 1 1/2 mi wide?

When you consider that an express bus is $6.50 and an Uber min fare is $10, you've got a lot of people who used to have to live their lives around express bus schedules and they can now take an Uber when THEY want - and get door-to-door service, for just a few bucks more than the express. So I wouldn't be surprised if the "avg Uber Fare" is around $20... (maybe... maybe only if you exclude airport rides?)

Getting from mid-town to Wash Hts or vice versa, is a pain in the ass by train & bus... and can get costly via cab.
Uber is likely picking up a lot of those commuters and evening-outers.
I guarantee you that the Columbia students (when they actually leave campus) are using Uber
(where they used to take a bus or the subway).

Also keep in mind that Seeking Alpha is a great site for amateur investors and analysts.
There are no big pros writing for SA... (I use it to follow some obscure stocks that don't get good pro coverage)
The guy who wrote the article you're referring to is LONG on TAXI (ie: he has an agenda)
Still, it's an interesting read.
This caught my eye:
_Taxi medallion financial industry short-sellers claim that the market is zero-sum, yet the Economist's data shows this is not the case - "the benefits enjoyed by Uber and its customers and drivers have not come entirely at yellow cabs' expense."
*This is not to say that Uber has had no effect, but rather, it is not even close to what short-sellers claim it is, or will be*._​


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

That SA article also completely dispells the myth (promoted here?) that medallion owners are under water on their loans.
Hacks: do you agree with this comment:

_ "...the case were medallion values truly going to zero. Clearly they will not, based on this data. The medallion will have value, and value above the industry average loan of $500,000.

"A 7% decline on $190,000, after backing out $25,000 in operating expenses, $40,000 in taxes, and $30,000 per year to debt service ($500K @ 4% amortized for 20 years), leaves the owner with $81,000. It's going to take another 15% decline in revenue to even begin to worry over debt service.

"Ultimately, UberX can never compete with the street hail in the NYC Exclusion Zone, and UberX is merely adding capacity to underserved areas. *So, please, enough rhetoric about how taxi medallions will become worthless. *Within 12 months, the transportation situation will reach equilibrium, revenues will stabilize, and the medallion market will open up again."_​


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That SA article also completely dispells the myth (promoted here?) that medallion owners are under water on their loans.
> Hacks: do you agree with this comment:
> 
> _ "...the case were medallion values truly going to zero. Clearly they will not, based on this data. The medallion will have value, and value above the industry average loan of $500,000.
> ...


They're definitely underwater, see: Freidman and Melrose. Melrose delinquencies shot up to 200+ M. Individual owners, as well. It's not everyone though it depends where you bought.

As far as X adding capacity to underserved areas, I call total bullshit on that. 14,000 green cabs are on the street, and most Ubers happen in Manhattan.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> *1. *Ha... well, can we agree to live in real-time and not set-up straw-man arguments?
> 
> *2. *Yes... While I agree that the TNCs need to be made much more accountable (and be subject to regulation!) and while I agree that the two business models provide related and/or similar services - I don't believe they are the same.
> 
> ...


1. I made no "straw man" argument. I interpreted a statement that you made as applying generally to posts and posters on this forum. You stated that it applied only to this topic. I challenged, you clarified, we move on as there is no need for further discussion on it. That is no "straw-man" argument. Thus far, at least between you and me, this discussion has proceeded in an adult and civilised manner, but, I will not remain silent when someone uses trite tactics and makes veiled accusations that have no basis. A more fitting response would have been something along the line of "Well, I am glad that we cleared up that matter."

2. Both business models do the same thing: they provide transportation of passengers for compensation. Taxicabs and limousines do it subject to overregulation. TNCs do it subject to little, if any regulation; in most jurisidictions, at least.

3. Believe it, or not, your statement will work for a Major Metropolitan Area: this one. I can not state, with authority, much on this subject regarding Boston, New York, Miami or Chicago, but I can make statements about the Washington Metropolitan Area. If there is one thing that Uber has proved here, it is that the demand for ground transportation for hire is far greater than anyone, especially the EcKxsPurtZz, had imagined. The problem that many had was that they could not get it. Uber has brought it to them, be it in the form of a limousine, a taxi or a rideshare. The only thing that Uber is missing is jitneys and busses.

In the District of Columbia, we have what the Authorities, Politicians, Journalists and other so-called ekxXpiRtZZ call "underserved areas". Uber has brought for-hire ground transportation to those areas. If you read the forums of this or that city, you may find some who admit to ducking those areas, but you will find just as many who make an effort to work those areas. Why? One reason is that Uber does not care where you live. If you can survive the Background Check and meet the other requirements, Uber will allow you to drive. What do you dilettantes know best? YOUR OWN NEIGHBOURHOOD! (what a surprise, -eh?). So, you start out working your own neighbourhood. People want rides there. It is one of the few things that the _Washington Post_ prints and that Channel Nine broadcasts that is ACTUALLY TRUE. Now, you also know more than a little about a few of the surrounding neighbourhoods, so you work there, as well. HEY! Whaddyaknow? The "underserved" neighbourhoods _ain't so underserved no more! _But more on this, in a little bit, as well as a bit of hearsay about New York, Chicago and Boston.

4. Be careful, you are generalising, profiling, stereotyping. Those behaviours are not conducive to a civilised discussion.

5. TNCs may serve areas that cab drivers and cab companies avoid, yes. I suspect if that is all that they did, most cab drivers would not care. Take the example of the "courtesy drivers" here, at the supermarkets in the "underserved areas". To be sure, I am surprised that the grocery chains allow this, as their liability exposure is great, but, let that be the subject of another post. If you want to know more about the "courtesy drivers", I shall be delighted to explain it to you. At any rate, these guys hang around the parking lots of the grocery stores in the "underserved areas" and transport people and their groceries to their homes in their private cars for whatever they can get. As most can drivers work neither those neighbourhoods nor those grocery strores, most cab drivers do not care what these "courtesy drivers" do. I have had more than one conversation with more than one DCTC Chair on the subject. All of them have agreed that as long as no one was complaining, they felt no need to do anything about it. All agreed that the "courtesy drivers" were meeting a need that no one was meeting.

6. This ties #4 and #5 together. I have no quarrel with unregulated competition that is not competing with me directly. If TNCs restricted their activities to areas where I do not work and have no desire to work, I would not care. Before we go to far, let it be understood that I will work those areas if someone wants me to take him there. If, after I drop, someone over there wants me to take him somewhere else, I will. The law requires that. The law does not require that I drive around this area or that looking for customers. Thus, I am following the law by taking the customer to an "underserved area". I am not breaking the law by leaving that "underserved area" after I drop the customer and proceding to an area where I would prefer to work and start looking for customers. While in this "underserved area", I can not quarrel with the unregulated competition for customers that I have there. As a rule, I will not work that area, but someone else will, so where do I have any basis for complaint? I could go on about this with stories from my UBerX passengers, but, again, if you want to know more, I can tell you in another post.

New York has done something along the lines that you propose with its Green Cabs. In Washington, when they were going to go to medallions (they did not-again, another story, if you are interested, I can tell you all about it in another post), the proposed legislation called for twenty per-cent of the medallions to be "restricted". The holder of a "restricted" medallion would be permitted to haul passengers only to or from the "underserved areas".

If, however, you are going to compete directly with me on my turf, it is only fair that you do so under the same conditions under which I must compete with you.

7. Having access to capital is not what I was calling an "unfair advantage". Using that capital to buy regulatory passes denied your competition and using it to buy passes for overt flouting of the law is an "unfair advantage".

8. You have just given a textbook illustration of why the TNCs are enjoying an unfair advantage. You do not go into a jursidiction, begin to operate, break every rule and law on the book and demand that you be accomodated. You go into a jurisdiction, explain what you want to do, ask to be accomodated, once you are, you begin to operate. This is what got more than one TNC in trouble with both Maryland and Virginia. The TNCs did it backwards. They then bought their accomodation in the form of fines, campaign contributions and "arrangements". "Accomodation" is not supposed to be bought, There are procedures to secure it. Those procedures were bypassed both by the TNCs and the Government.

9. The local governments had the power to stop it. "Arrangements" were made to see that said governments did not use that power.

10. Again, you are suggesting that the cab business take this whole thing lying down, because it is "life".

Please, understand, I am not advocating that the TNCs be put out of business. No. They meet a need here, and in other places. If, however, the TNCs insist on competing directly with me, they must compete under the same rules. Let there be no rules, some rules, or too many rules, but they apply across the board, whatever they are, or are not. I should not be overregulated while a TNC driver is unregulated. He is doing the same thing that I am: hauling passengers for compensation.

If the TNC driver is not going to compete directly with me, that, is another matter.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> They're definitely underwater, see: Freidman and Melrose. Melrose delinquencies shot up to 200+ M. Individual owners, as well. It's not everyone though it depends where you bought.
> As far as X adding capacity to underserved areas, I call total bullshit on that. 14,000 green cabs are on the street, and most Ubers happen in Manhattan.


hey - I didn't write the articles!
NYC is unique. 
The two areas here in Cleveland that cabbies complain about are the downtown hotels and the airport. 
And I don't blame them one bit. 
That's where they make their living. 
I never 'hang-out in those areas trying to pick-up 'pings'. 
I know those guys have mouths to feed... and I don't drive to f*ck with their livelihood. 
I do know that out here in the suburbs where I live, the folks that I pick up are calling for an Uber instead of getting a ride from a friend or driving them self... very few would have called a cab. I know this because that's what they tell me every day. I am serving 'underserved' - or 'untapped' cab areas.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Thanks - very interesting info. And I do hope you'll post a separate topic on Green Cabs.


Another Uber Driver said:


> 4. Be careful, you are generalising, profiling, stereotyping. Those behaviours are not conducive to a civilised discussion.


I am a New Yorker, born and raised...
still have family there and am more than a little familiar with the NYC bubble
and the New York view of the world, as illustrated on the iconic cover of The New Yorker nearly 40 years ago:









And as evidenced by Hackenstein exclusive discussion of how rideshare is impacting NYC cab drivers.
Uber is disrupting the status quo and breaking laws in hundreds of cities and dozens of countries. Few of them, face the same concerns as NYC. There are more cities than just NYC that have important embedded cab organizations.



> 8. They did it backwards. They then bought their accomodation in the form of fines, campaign contributions and "arrangements". "Accomodation" is not supposed to be bought, There are procedures to secure it. Those procedures were bypassed both by the TNCs and the Government.


 For Uber's part, I don't think that was by accident. I think they did what companies do every day: weighed the risk and cost benefit of doing things 'properly' (spending years to get legislation and rules and regulations written in 50 countries, 50 states in the US and hundreds or thousands of municipalities) against the Nike approach of "Just Do It". Considering their valuation today, they look evil, but very, very smart. It's unethical - and illegal... and it doesn't matter because they can afford to fight the legal fights - and no one is going to jail over Uber's disregard for the law. Corporations do not care about what they are 'supposed' to do - they care about their return on investment. That's the world we live in.



> 10. Again, you are suggesting that the cab business take this whole thing lying down, because it is "life".


Nope... I hope the cab companies fight back with all the resources they can muster and hope they can hold authorities responsible for throwing them under the bus. But I am also hoping that cab companies will respond in kind by starting services that compete directly with Uber and Lyft. It won't happen (I don't think) because it's too late. You were right in 1998 to start asking the company to step-up to what consumers wanted. If cab companies weren't so busy doing whatever it is they are doing... well, hindsight being 20/20, I can think of several things they could have done 4 years ago that would have been more effective than what they did do... and are still doing. But as you've said - different topic.



> Please, understand, I am not advocating that the TNCs be put out of business.


Then you're not trying hard enough.
I think they should be put out of business if no reasons other than their total disregard for for local laws and their exploitation of drivers.
But that's just me.

I don't like monopolies and I don't like exploitative corporations.
(I know that may be hard to believe from my posts in THIS thread... but sometimes playing devils' advocate is the only way to call out BS on something that you agree with when someone goes over the top)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

hanging in there said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this.


Just had a perfect example.
Sitting in my home office at 9PM... I'd done a couple of rides earlier in the day and figured I was staying put for the evening.
I get a ping from around the corner... maybe 2 miles away.
I pick up the pax, drop her at her destination - 6 min - 2.3 mi: $6 fare... no tip.
Not a minute later I get ping from 1 mile away.
Drive that pax 8 miles to pick-up a food take out order - and then drive him back; 
- 16.87 miles, ~40 min with wait for food, $30.37 fare + $10 (33%) tip.

That's just how it goes.

And it was a fun ride...
Anyone know the rapper Machine Gun Kelly? 
<shrug> I didn't know he was a neighbor.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I am a New Yorker, born and raised...
> Few of them, face the same concerns as NYC. There are more cities than just NYC that have important embedded cab organizations.
> 
> For Uber's part, I don't think that was by accident. I think they did what companies do every day: weighed the risk and cost benefit of doing things 'properly' (spending years to get legislation and rules and regulations written in 50 countries, 50 states in the US and hundreds or thousands of municipalities) against the Nike approach of "Just Do It". Considering their valuation today, they look evil, but very, very smart. It's unethical - and illegal... and it doesn't matter because they can afford to fight the legal fights - and no one is going to jail over Uber's disregard for the law. Corporations do not care about what they are 'supposed' to do -
> ...


You used miniscules in "city dwellers", so I took it as applying to someone who lived in any large city, not just New York. I am not unfamiliar with the New Yorker's view of the world as illustrated by that cover of the magazine. My mother grew up in the South Bronx. I lived at 55th and Sixth as a small child. I lived on Balcom off East Tremont, 86th and 162nd, 241st and Martha and, again on 55th and Sixth as a young man. I still have family there. In fact, I still have family that works in the City Auditor's Office, or whatever they call it these days (I think that it does have another name, but I forget, now). I have had family in that Office since the 1920s. I know more than a little about New York. I still call the big airport "Idlewild".

In addition, we Bostonians have a similar view. Boston is, after all, the Hub of the Universe, there is no civilisation outside 495, except for maybe Worcester, which is the last outpost thereof.

But still, I love New York: it is just the Yankees that I hate.

Oh no, it was not by any accident. The TNCs did what they did knowing what they were doing. This was and is unfair. No one can take me to task for calling it "unfair" as you and several others have and will. Indeed, the governments threw us and the citizenry that they are supposed to be protecting under the proverbial bus. The citizenry has been sold down the river and does not even realise it. No, no one has gone to jail yet over a TNC's disregard for the law, but if anyone who took their money ever is exposed, he will go to jail. There is one in particular here, who, if ever she is frog marched from the District Building for this, I will have a _Te Deum_ said in a church somewhere, or, at least, recite the prayer myself in front of the District Building.

It is not that it is too late, it is that most cab companies, here, at least, do not have the resources. There is one that does, but he will not expend them. There is another one, here, that is trying to fight the TNCs, and, he is holding his own, but, he is in hock down to the fourth generation. As for the others, I have posted elsewhere more than once that given a choice between the balance sheet of a late twentieth/early twenty-first century D.C. cab company and a Colorado short line in the 1930s, I would take that of the Colorado railroad every time. the busybody do-gooders learned that one the hard way, here.

The City is developing an application, and, there are other ride summoning applications that want to come here. The market is still open, and, the current TNCs are not invulnerable. This brings us to the point of exploitive and unethical corporations.

One of the reasons that the TNCs were as successful as they were in luring suburban cab drivers from their companies was the historical mistreatment of drivers by those companies. In the beginning, the TNCs offered the drivers a better deal. Yes, the per mile rate was lower, but you made up for that in efficiency (little, if any deadheading) and rarely was there a problem getting paid. Once the drivers were ensnared, the pay cuts came and the poor service to the drivers followed right behind. Some jurisdictions did implement some regulations, but the TNCs totally dropped the ball in helping drivers prepare for and comply with those regulations. What I see knocking off the big TNCs is a firm that can lure both enough customers for the drivers to service and enough drivers to service the customers. The firm will maintain proper treatment of the drivers and keep up the pay to the point where the drivers can earn a decent profit. The firm will need to offer the consumer something that the established TNCs do not. Be it more stringently vetted drivers, an easier-to-use application, advance reservations (yes, it can be done on an application: My Taxi does it), better trained drivers, you name it, it must be something.

The TNCs do meet a need. If nothing else, if a need is being met that I am unwilling or unable to meet, it keeps the regulators, legislators, the Mayor and yellow journalists such as Rusted Puketastesick off my case. Rather than put them out of business, a large golf shoe with extra long spikes should be planted firmly in their collective posterior. They consider themselves above even such politically fashionable items as the ADA. One TNC CEO, when asked by a legislator about accomodating the disabled, began his answer with "Well, you need to look to the taxicab industry on that.............". Brought into line, the TNCs can exist with the established for hire services. As you have found in Cleveland, and, I have found in Washington, most rideshare users never would use a taxi, anyhow, or rarely would they do so. Thus, in most cases, the rideshares are not taking away from the taxis. The glaring exception to that here is the college students.

Funny, too, this is the slow time in Washington. Kongriss and the Skoolz are 0-W-T. If you go to the Washington Forum, you will read about drivers' complaints about no work. I ran the taxi for a little less than three hours to-day. I made nine trips in that time. Two Uber Taxi pings and seven street hails. Nothing fantastic, mind you, but, I did stay busy. If that is the case, _ain't no OO-burr kin-a be a-puttin' all-a that much a hurtin' on me. _


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> But still, I love New York: it is just the Yankees that I hate.


holy shit, brother - is that you?  


> _ain't no OO-burr kin-a be a-puttin' all-a that much a hurtin' on me. _


Yeah - this is the DC lull when the both the tourists and the suits are gone. 
My favorite time of year.
And as my mother used to say: the only thing better than gridlock is when Congress is out of session.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

^^^Is your mother from Washington? Is your brother a Red Sox fan?^^^


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

(some profanity)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hey, Hackenstein ... what's the deal in NYC with one color for cabs - I think you mentioned it a couple of days ago...
I miss the days when all cabs were yellow. hell, they were all "Yellow Cab"s... we never trusted any other cabs back in the 60s/70s.

And one of my favorite sports is still hanging out on 5th Ave trying to flag down yellow Ferraris and Lamborghinis.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> ^^^Is your mother from Washington? Is your brother a Red Sox fan?^^^


nope.
maybe cousins, then.
(my parents two sides hail from NY and Boston)
And I'm in Cleveland - so I hate the Yankees and the Red Sox.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Hey, Hackenstein ... what's the deal in NYC with one color for cabs - I think you mentioned it a couple of days ago...
> I miss the days when all cabs were yellow. hell, they were all "Yellow Cab"s... we never trusted any other cabs back in the 60s/70s.
> 
> And one of my favorite sports is still hanging out on 5th Ave trying to flag down yellow Ferraris and Lamborghinis.


It was standardized in 1967 to combat gypsy cabs.

Gypsy cabs have now been standardized black...


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> It was standardized in 1967 to combat gypsy cabs.


.......allegedly this is the reason that Washington cabs are phasing in a standardised colour scheme. This is supposed to allow the public to distinguish the City cabs from the suburban and the illegal cabs. The last is silly, because here, at least, the majority of the illegal *cabs* really were not illegal. The cab had a valid registration, a good inspection sticker and an up-to-date insurance policy. The vehicle was legitimate--it was the _*driver who weren't*. _The driver had no hack face. The arrival of Uber has mostly eliminated the last type of illegal. There are a few around who can not afford the type of car that Uber requires, so they still work illegally.

Here, at least, the majority of the riding public has not gotten used to the idea. Further, there are still enough cabs out there painted in their old schemes, those with character, that is, so it is difficult to measure the full impact. All of the legitimate City cabs, be they in their old or new schemes, do have the Pakistan/Indonesia type top light. I hate those things. I much prefer the old lights, as I do the old schemes. They had character.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Another Uber Driver said:


> .......allegedly this is the reason that Washington cabs are phasing in a standardised colour scheme. This is supposed to allow the public to distinguish the City cabs from the suburban and the illegal cabs. The last is silly, because here, at least, the majority of the illegal *cabs* really were not illegal. The cab had a valid registration, a good inspection sticker and an up-to-date insurance policy. The vehicle was legitimate--it was the _*driver who weren't*. _The driver had no hack face. The arrival of Uber has mostly eliminated the last type of illegal. There are a few around who can not afford the type of car that Uber requires, so they still work illegally.
> 
> Here, at least, the majority of the riding public has not gotten used to the idea. Further, there are still enough cabs out there painted in their old schemes, those with character, that is, so it is difficult to measure the full impact. All of the legitimate City cabs, be they in their old or new schemes, do have the Pakistan/Indonesia type top light. I hate those things. I much prefer the old lights, as I do the old schemes. They had character.


Interesting, that's a big part of the reason they started the TLC. Gangsters had their buddies from Italy driving the cabs, no one knew who they were.

They got rid of the off duty light here under Bloomberg, now you're forced to drive with the light off at the end of the day and risk no one hailing or turn it on and risk getting reported for a decline.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> They got rid of the off duty light here under Bloomberg, now you're forced to drive with the light off at the end of the day and risk no one hailing or turn it on and risk getting reported for a decline.


New York used to have some rules that allowed a driver to take on a passenger while *OFF DUTY*. As I recall, you had to note "going home" or "going to shop" on your trip sheet. This allowed you to stop and ask the prospective passenger where he was going. Did Nanny Bloomberg cause those to be eliminated, or can you still do that?

I would not mind having something similar, here, but, given the large numbers of what you call "declines" here, I doubt that it would. There are times where I shop at a grocery store that is in an "underserved" area of the City. I have had more than one person approach me, after I had parked, was out of, and had cleared my cab, and ask me to haul them. If all that they asked was for a ride, just to be safe, I had to decline, and tell them that I was not working. Had I asked them where they were going, I could have gotten in trouble for "refusal to haul" or "asking destination before customer in cab", despite the *OFF DUTY* sign on the dashboard and its being noted on the trip sheet (commonly called a "manifest" here). Our Pakistan/Indonesia type light does have an *OFF DUTY* display, but you must get out of the cab to turn it on and are not allowed to take on passengers if it is showing. If you turn off the ignition, you are allowed to have the top light dark. There is a button inside the cab to activate the *ON CALL* display, but it is allowed only in cabs that take dispatch. But, I stray.

If the prospective passenger volunteers a destination, that is different. That has happened. If it is close (which at a grocery store, usually it is), then I can take them. I do tell them that I am going shopping, but, if they are still there when I come out, I will take them. If they volunteer a destination that is far (which does not happen infrequently), then I can get out of it by stating that I am not working. Despite what the Hotel, Restaurant and Tourism Trade Groups would have you believe, I am a human being and my GF's ice cream melts just as anyone else's does.

As I recall, those rules were not in effect when I lived up there. Rarely did I use a cab when I lived there, but at times, I did need one. I used to get more than a few declines when I lived in the boroughs, but I had no trouble going from Manhattan at shift change time when I lived at 86th and 162nd. Then, at least, half the cab company garages in New York were in Ozone Park, or somewhere around there. The guy had to go a little beyond that to get me home, but, it was better than deadheading, for him, at least.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Another Uber Driver said:


> New York used to have some rules that allowed a driver to take on a passenger while *OFF DUTY*. As I recall, you had to note "going home" or "going to shop" on your trip sheet. This allowed you to stop and ask the prospective passenger where he was going. Did Nanny Bloomberg cause those to be eliminated, or can you still do that?
> 
> I would not mind having something similar, here, but, given the large numbers of what you call "declines" here, I doubt that it would. There are times where I shop at a grocery store that is in an "underserved" area of the City. I have had more than one person approach me, after I had parked, was out of, and had cleared my cab, and ask me to haul them. If all that they asked was for a ride, just to be safe, I had to decline, and tell them that I was not working. Had I asked them where they were going, I could have gotten in trouble for "refusal to haul" or "asking destination before customer in cab", despite the *OFF DUTY* sign on the dashboard and its being noted on the trip sheet (commonly called a "manifest" here). Our Pakistan/Indonesia type light does have an *OFF DUTY* display, but you must get out of the cab to turn it on and are not allowed to take on passengers if it is showing. If you turn off the ignition, you are allowed to have the top light dark. There is a button inside the cab to activate the *ON CALL* display, but it is allowed only in cabs that take dispatch. But, I stray.
> 
> ...


Bloomberg/Yassky got rid of them, claimed they were 'confusing.' A few tv news shows framed them as 'confusing' and asked random people if they understood it. The TLC may have also claimed it was being abused, who knows.

There is no more trip sheet the computer does it. You can't ask someone where they're going, you have to phrase it that you can take them if they're going your way toward the garage or whatever. But now you can only do that if the light is completely off. Yassky tried to make it so it would take a couple of minutes for the system to reboot if you wanted to turn it back on, but that seems not to have gone through. You turn it off by logging off the computer.

The thing that's probably worse than all of it though is the insane new 25 MPH speed limit. Constant stress, real nanny state clueless 'progressive' bullshit.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Twenty five MPH speed limit? What, you are not allowed to drive faster than that? Or does that apply only to City Streets? If I had actually succeeded in getting you to take me from Manhattan when I lived on 241st and Martha and you were going twenty five MPH up the Major Deegan, I would have to worry about you and me, both.

Nanny state, repress-ER-uh-*PROG*-ressive nonsense, allright. These sexual intellectuals are textbook illustrations of the cure's being worse than the ailment.

Editorial note: I did a search. It is for City streets, only. You can still go faster than that on the Deegan. The speed limit in the District of Columbia is already twenty five MPH, unless otherwise posted. It has been, for years; for as long as anyone can remember, at least.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Another Uber Driver said:


> Twenty five MPH speed limit? What, you are not allowed to drive faster than that? Or does that apply only to City Streets? If I had actually succeeded in getting you to take me from Manhattan when I lived on 241st and Martha and you were going twenty five MPH up the Major Deegan, I would have to worry about you and me, both.
> 
> Nanny state, repress-ER-uh-*PROG*-ressive nonsense, allright. These sexual intellectuals are textbook illustrations of the cure's being worse than the ailment.


The WSH is part of the interstate highway system he couldn't do it there. He may have lowered it on the FDR. I know they installed speed cameras.

They say it reduces fatalities. Sure, then why not reduce it to 5 MPH.

He also made failure to yield to pedestrians an arrestable offense. It nearly caused the entire MTA bus fleet to go on strike after a bus driver was handcuffed and arrested after an accident. They may have since passed a bill excluding bus and taxi drivers.

It's all part of 'Vision Zero.' Meanwhile, app drivers are distracted driving all day and racing to pickups.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> He also made failure to yield to pedestrians an arrestable offense. It nearly caused the entire MTA bus fleet to go on strike after a bus driver was handcuffed and arrested after an accident. They may have since passed a bill excluding bus and taxi drivers.
> 
> It's all part of 'Vision Zero.' Meanwhile, app drivers are distracted driving all day and racing to pickups.


You get locked up for failure to yield to a pedestrian. Who voted for this guy? I guess that DiBlasio wants the police to lock up Jersey drivers and Wall Street Types in their Audis yakking on a wireless instead of crack dealers, huh? (Not that I have too much sympathy for a jerkwadd in an Audi who is yakking on a wireless, mind you)

In the District of Columbia, they give you eight points for failure to yield to jaywal-ER-uh-*pedestrians. *Eight points gets you a minimum thirty day suspension of your driver's licence. We do not have a point system for hackers, here, 
Y-E-T. The City has been keeping up with points over the last several years. When Barry was Mayor, and during Kelly's one term, they did not keep up, too well with points. If you had eight points, they could suspend you licence, but rarely did they keep up with it. I went to court to fight a traffic summons once. The guy who went before me had thirty two points on his licence. The Hearing Examiner could not believe that he was still driving.

You can not, however, renew a hack face if you have more than seven points on your driver's licence. Five, or more points, and your renewal is for one year only instead of two.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> A lot of cabbies (taxi drivers, hacks) participate on the website here...
> most providing useful and helpful information - others just here to bash Uber and Uber drivers.
> 
> One of the common myths promoted by cab drivers is that 'absolutely anyone' can register and drive Uber. They also imply and sometimes state outright that taxi drivers are all the cream of the crop - and they brush off any question about why so many consumers prefer Uber drivers to taxi drivers.
> ...


Can absolutely anyone register and drive for Uber? Not so much. Clearly, you need to be someone with a nice newish car, or until recently willing to go deeply in da' hole with Santander. For that reason alone, clearly not just anyone can register and drive for Uber. Mostly the beef is that whether or not the standard to be an Uber driver is higher or not than a taxi....... That has never been an issue. It only is an issue because the public only cares about itself. So, as a result the safety issue is what gets pointed out. Who knows? I have a buddy who has been driving taxi for longer than me...... He points out: We are all just orphans, square pegs in a round hole world.

The real issue is that Uber has sidestepped regulation and turned the model on its head. Rather than leave money on the table (business really, they leave plenty on the table), Uber has managed to transfer the burden of ownership to the driver. The result is Uber is able to put as many cars on the road as they are able, they reward referrals better for the effort than they reward the same people to drive pax...... That is the real issue. Problem is the general public simply doesn't care if a market is flooded with cars at rock bottom rates. As a result, the argument gets turned toward some sort of hiring standard concern which is really something I don't concern myself with.

As for taxi drivers being rated by pax: It simply doesn't work that way. I have been driving for I guess almost sixteen years. I drive for a small taxi company. Despite working for a small company in a small town, I average about 5,000 fares a year give or take. Anyone of those pax has the ability to call and complain about my driving or my behavior, some sing my praise too. They talk to a human. The beauty of that system is if a pax calls in to complain, if they are obviously too drunk, unreasonable, complaining about X,Y or Z, the dispatcher is going to temper that complaint against their lack of sobriety for example.

Also, at the taxi company I drive for, I need to be able to work with the dispatchers, if I am sent to a pick up a pax I have had previous trouble, I can turn it down and they will simply ask another driver, no big deal, neither pax nor driver is punished unless there is some bigger problem at hand....

Enough of that. To answer your question, from my long experience driving taxi, I have much to gripe about but for the most part my gripes are pretty trivial. I lease from a company that is of a very manageable size. There is no reason for them to initiate such a system. Our phone people and dispatcher bear the burden of dealing with pax who don't quite know where they are or where they are going, the analogue of a misplaced pin right? The taxi company own and maintains the cars, insures those same cars. However, it still needs people to drive them and those people must be independent contractors.

So, turn over is high as it is, drivers come and go. For the most part, taxi companies are going to want to work with you, or if not work with you lease to you. It is a fine, strange balance. Everyone leasing from my company seems to be doing it for their own reason. The pay isn't great, but it is a peculiar freedom, I can work every day a month or none and nobody is going to scold me or praise me, basically, so long as you aren't getting complaints, they are happy. That said, pax do reward drivers with praise from time to time in the form of compliments or requests.

I hope that kind of sort of answers you rquestion michael- Cleveland. I believe the issue is somewhat centered around scale and reasonable limits with respect to what is manageable. I drive for a company which is aware that that not all combinations of pax and driver work well. Every now and again things don't work out as planned and the office tries to act as mediator, they have reasonable bullshit detectors and they need my money - I am their customer, the pax are my customers, I pay them to put me in contact with my customers for that night, we share pax.

I hope that is helpful, I will give it a bit more thought.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> They got rid of the off duty light here under Bloomberg, now you're forced to drive with the light off at the end of the day and risk no one hailing or turn it on and risk getting reported for a decline.





Hackenstein said:


> There is no more trip sheet the computer does it.
> 
> You can't ask someone where they're going, you have to phrase it that you can take them if they're going your way toward the garage or whatever.
> 
> ...


A few points of comparison on the lights.

Under the old rules, here, when many companies had unique lights, the others a generic, there was a switch inside the cab. You turned it off if the cab were not available due to the driver's being *ON CALL* (radio or previous arrangment), *OFF DUTY*, or *OUT OF SERVICE *(driver/vehicle emergency. Also used to stop working during Rush Hours as *OFF DUTY* was not allowed during ruch hours). The whole thing was honoured more in its breach than its keeping. The rule here was "put up your hand, if a driver stops, get in. If you see a driver stopped at a light, parked or whatever, walk up and ask him if the cab is available." (If you were sitting on a stand, it was assumed that the cab was available). One result of this was that people paid no attention to signs on the dashboard/in the window. I always have driven some kind of dispatch cab, even if I do prefer to run the street. At times, I would be sitting several cars back at a red light. Someone would see me, start walking toward my cab. I would frantically wave my *ON CALL* sign, which they would totally ignore as they looked right at me. I learned very quickly to keep my doors locked when responding to a call (I know it used to be that was not allowed in New York--is that still the case?).

The short version is, light, or no light, people still hailed. Further, you still have here people who do what I call the "generic hail". They are not waving at any cab in particular, they are standing on the kerb on a busy street (Connecticut Avenue, Pennsylvania Avenue, 16th Street, to name a few), putting up their hand and waiting for some cab to pull over and pick them up.

Come the Pakistan/Indonesia light. Supposedly, the meter will go on only when it is displaying *TAXI FOR HIRE*. While I have seen that such is how it works in most cabs, in mine, the meter will HIRE in any display mode. I did not wire it or select the light. I simply took it to the shop, told them to put one onto it (only because I had to--I do not like this light) and paid the bill when they were finished. If you drive a dispatch cab, you are allowed a button in the cab that will change the display to *ON CALL*. When the meter goes on, the light goes dark, except to show your Funny Cab Number (that is my name for it--The DCTC's name is Public Vehicle Identification Number). If you want to turn on the *OFF DUTY* display, you must get out of the cab and press a button to shuffle through the displays to get to *OFF DUTY*. There is also a totally dark display (even your funny cab number goes dark). You must get out of the cab to turn it to that. You are not allowed to have the totally dark display anywhere in the District of Columbia. You must have something on it. The DCTC has stated that the totally dark is for when you are in the suburbs.

While some of the recent arrivals pay attention to the new lights, no one who has lived here or who has been coming here for any length of time pays any attention, still. The only ones who have benefitted from this are the manufacturers, the shops that install them, the new arrivals and the Harassmen-ER-uh-*HACK* Inspectors. These days, if you drive by a hail and the Police or Hack Inspector sees it, you can not quickly slap an *OFF DUTY *sign onto the dash and quickly note it on your trip sheet.

Another problem that the new light creates is for those who want to quit after dropping a customer. While there never was an Official Way to do this, if you put your *OFF DUTY/OUT OF SERVICE* sign onto the dash and noted on the trip sheet "OFF DUTY" or "OUT OF SERVICE", the drop off point of the passenger in the back seat and noted the time when you pulled up to the destination onto the trip sheet, as a rule, you would get away with refusing a passenger. Now you can not do this. In fact, the rule specifically states that you must get out, click to the *OFF DUTY* display and do it before someone wants a ride. The only way that you might get away with turning down someone in that situation is if you are about to hit your driving hour limit (called "outlawing" in the railroad business). If I am discharging in Georgetown and have been out there for eleven hours, thirty minutes, and I turn down a passenger, it is likely that I would get away with it, as it would take twenty minutes, or so, for me to get from Georgetown to where I live near Catholic University. If hauled in, I would bring documentation that I had been out there for eleven and one half hours, remind the Hack Office that the limit is there to preserve Public Safety, they already know where I live, thus, I could claim "outlawing" as a defence.

New York used to have something similar that allowed the driver to document that he was quitting after he dropped the customer that he had, but I forget what it was. Is there currently any such provision in New York? I am asking because if there is, since the Powers-That-Be are trying to turn this into New York (in vain, this never was New York, it ain't New York now, and it ain't never gonna' be New York), if there is a way to do this, I would like to suggest it to them.

I do like the idea of going dark when you LOG OFF the computer. Here, it could be programmed to send the light to *OFF DUTY* display. There has been agitation here to go to an electronic manifest. Here, you can get your Payment Service Provider (the credit card processor/reporter of statistics to the DCTC) to e-Mail you a statement that shows everything that you ran, so you do know, already, for tax purposes, what you ran. The only thing m issing is the tips on the cash fares. Uber Taxi provides a statement for their trips (which show up as "cash fares" on your e-Mail--you pay for Uber Taxi through the application, here, unlike in New York).

Here, you can not say even "I am going___________, so if you are going that way, I can take you". I could not say something like that even in the situation at the grocery store that I described in a previous post. Here, it is "Is you is or is you ain't working". The only way that I can help the prospective passenger is if he volunteers his destination. Other than that, it is "Me am sorry, me no workey now."


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## EastsideHank (Jul 23, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Thank you for the informative post.
> Great read... and right in line with my thoughts.
> 
> Imagine what the situation in NYC would be today if the NYC TLC had implemented a city-wide online system in 2010 for app-hailing, with ride requests going to the nearest car - regardless of company affiliation.
> ...


Chicken Delight! Wow, that puts me in the Way Back machine. We used to pick up from the one at Cedar Ctr all the time.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

EastsideHank said:


> Chicken Delite! Wow, that puts me in the Way Back machine. We used to pick up from the one at Cedar Ctr all the time.


Pick up? As a kid (in NY) I remember the whole point was to get one of their ridiculous looking cars to deliver: "Don't Cook Tonight - Chicken Delite"

Seriously - there was a Chicken Delite in Cedar Center? 
Kinda makes sense... Cedar Center has been credited with being the first "Strip Mall" in the country.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

If you guys keep going with this 
Michael - Cleveland 
Is going to drive taxi


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> If you guys keep going with this
> Michael - Cleveland
> Is going to drive taxi


lol! - I'm pretty sure somewhere in the 134 posts in this thread that I said "...never have and never will" hack.
(and I freely admit that I wouldn't last 1 week as a taxi driver. If you couldn't tell from my posts here on the site, I don't have the temperament. I absolutely would not drive if I could not refuse a ride-request or kick someone out of my car. I couldn't cut it.


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## Orlando_Driver (Jul 14, 2014)

Cab driving paid off my student loans !!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Orlando_Driver said:


> Cab driving paid off my student loans !!


You're not alone in that.


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## hangarcat (Nov 2, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> A lot of cabbies (taxi drivers, hacks) participate on the website here...
> most providing useful and helpful information - others just here to bash Uber and Uber drivers.
> 
> One of the common myths promoted by cab drivers is that 'absolutely anyone' can register and drive Uber. They also imply and sometimes state outright that taxi drivers are all the cream of the crop - and they brush off any question about why so many consumers prefer Uber drivers to taxi drivers.
> ...


Do you ever get abused by passengers using the rating system? Do they ever demand discounts or other concessions for 5*?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

hangarcat said:


> Do you ever get abused by passengers using the rating system? Do they ever demand discounts or other concessions for 5*?


I'm not sure what you mean by "abused by passengers using the rating system". I don't know what any individual rider rates me. I can guess which ones don't rate a 5. Or if it's a bad trip for reason or another or a shocking surge (or even SELECT fare) that I'll get a 1* (as if I had something to do with the fare).

No - in more than 2,000 trips I've never had anyone demand a discount. When talking with riders about fares, I'm very clear that drivers have no control over what the rider is charged. What kind of other concessions are you asking about? (I've never even been asked for a bottle of water (which I do NOT stock in the car). I've never been asked to 'end the trip' early. I have had a few riders let me know they are using a promo code and to try to keep the fare under $20. One guy did once say as he was getting out of the car with a big smile on his face: "Five for Five"? I had no idea what he was talking about, so I asked him. "5 star rating for a 5* star rating", he explained. I laughed and said 'don't worry about it... you're a 5*.

<shrug> Maybe I've been lucky, but it's hard to imagine that my experience with that many rides would to far off the typical experience.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> lol! - I'm pretty sure somewhere in the 134 posts in this thread that I said "...never have and never will" hack.
> (and I freely admit that I wouldn't last 1 week as a taxi driver. I you couldn't tell from my posts here on the site, I don't have the temperament. I absolutely would not drive if I could not refuse a ride-request or kick someone out of my car. I couldn't cut it.


You can refuse a pickup in a yellow cab if the passenger appears intoxicated or unruly. You can eject them for being abusive.

I've ejected people for thinking I went the long way etc and they start shit. But since I don't want trouble with the TLC I don't charge for the ride and tell them they can take another cab.

I ejected a woman who was screaming at the top of her lungs but only made it half a block.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> I ejected a woman who was screaming at the top of her lungs but only made it half a block.


hehe... I did the same thing with a guy my second week driving. Unfortunately, we were only a half bloc from his destination.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Hackenstein said:


> You can refuse a pickup in a yellow cab if the passenger appears intoxicated or unruly. You can eject them for being abusive. I've ejected people for thinking I went the long way etc and they start shit. But since I don't want trouble with the TLC I don't charge for the ride and tell them they can take another cab.


Nope - sorry... you still won't talk me in to driving a cab.


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