# Toronto Trip Calcualtions - Saturday 03/07/15 - The 12 hour Bender



## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

I just wanted to pre-empt the upcoming ride and will post the results tomorrow. But wanted to lay down the ground rules for the run for tonight.

Time: 4PM - 4AM

1 1/2 hour for dinner 2 15 min rest breaks (App on for the breaks)

Say in the downtown core as much as possible. Out of city travel will result in drive back in the city with app on. This is not the standard strategy I use but want to show miles based on dead returns.

All trips accepted regardless of distance.

Drop and stop will be used while in City limits.

For reference here is the heat map where I will be doing most of the driving in red and green.










Here are the details what Uber says the night will be like.










And the events in the city that may have impact on rides. (Why there was a sushi festival this weekend I have no idea)










Prepping the car filling it with water for the night and bags for the drunks I will be all set.

Looking forward to sharing the results.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

What's the dinner and rest crap? 

Now you should add 2 hours to the stint to make it a real 12, like a real full timer...

Just kidding. You might not make it without chow.

Should be fun to see yer #'s


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Almost 3a.m. in Toronto. I wonder how Actionjax is fareing/fairing?

Should be interesting to hear if his state of mind altered somewhere past 2 a.m. when entering the drunken twilight zone. It can be a whole nuther often times nightmarish world.

If they have the daylight savings time adjustment there he may be knocking off an hour early.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

Well just got home. 5:10 Am with the time shift. My brain is shot. That was a full 12 hours and 1/2 hour taken for dinner.

Gross take for the night was something like $399. (yep $1 shy from $400 but I made about $12 in tips)

Will give more of a breakdown tomorrow. But right now I need sleep.


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Well just got home. 5:10 Am with the time shift. My brain is shot. That was a full 12 hours and 1/2 hour taken for dinner.
> 
> Gross take for the night was something like $399. (yep $1 shy from $400 but I made about $12 in tips)
> 
> Will give more of a breakdown tomorrow. But right now I need sleep.


My gut feel is About $20 p/hr BEFORE tax. No idea what cost on the car's longevity or depreciation. A scratch here, scuff there wear and tear.

So easy to blow that amount on a night out, but you chose to work hard and make it.

Not sure what the insurance and legal risks are in your City for UBERX, but all that anxiety could be avoided.

Do you like driving folk around? Do they like you? Try talking with a Chauffeur company and see what they have to offer for a good part-time driver.

Why break your car for a similar outcome (counting Tips!).


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Well just got home. 5:10 Am with the time shift. My brain is shot. That was a full 12 hours and 1/2 hour taken for dinner.
> 
> Gross take for the night was something like $399. (yep $1 shy from $400 but I made about $12 in tips)
> 
> Will give more of a breakdown tomorrow. But right now I need sleep.


Not bad money action Actionjax. And good on you for keeping with it full time shift term. I thought sure you'd crap out an hour early.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

So it was a long 12 hours that's for sure. Stayed in the Downtown core most of the time. Had my first ride take me all the way to the east end of the city outside the city limits and drove back empty but that's what we were aiming for. Got a few rides to other areas outside the city but got lucky with a ping that brought me back.

Surge was not a big deal till the second last ride of the night I snagged a 1.8x from the core to Vaughn. That's about a 40 min trip to the middle of nowhere. With 1 hour left on the clock I still worked my way back but snagged surprisingly a local trip that took me closer to home. Shut down 15 min before the end time of 12 hours as if I was top head back into the city with that 15 min the time period would be over with nothing to get back home that would count.

Also got a $10 tip from a woman who had a $21 ride and was her first ride. Gave her a promo code so she got the ride almost free. And will get another $5 for the referral. So that's an extra $15 on that ride easy.

So lets look at the numbers

Time driven 4PM to 4AM (12 Hours)
Total KM driven = 249
Paid KM while driving = 179.16
Total Rides = 30 + (1 cancel fee)
End of day rating = 4.81 (God help me)

More paid to dead still so good news.

True cost per KM based on my vehicle $0.32 per km operating cost

Gross Pay for period = $395.25 or $32.94 per hour gross (Guarantee is $25/h)
Net Pay for Period = $291.50 or $24.29 per hour Net

Cost of driving for the night $79.68

Gross - Cost = $315.57 or $26.29 gross per hour after expenses
Net - Cost = $211.82 = $17.65 per hour clear in pocket

So this looks to be a sustainable number clear. But it was a hell of a lot of work and ratings did suffer.

If you want to eliminate the surge $$$ on the number it would be about $36 gross.

Let me know if you have questions or want to see the statements. I think most don't need to see it but I'm happy to share. I know mileage goes on a degree of trust but I'm looking into seeing if I can track that on an app on the phone or something that someone can audit the numbers for transparency.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

Sydney Uber said:


> My gut feel is About $20 p/hr BEFORE tax. No idea what cost on the car's longevity or depreciation. A scratch here, scuff there wear and tear.
> 
> So easy to blow that amount on a night out, but you chose to work hard and make it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the idea. It may be a good option, but I don't see me doing this long term. For me right now it's more of a bit of an experiment to get some numbers so I am better prepared with city council when I speak with them. I do enjoy it and get good feedback from riders. And right now my normal driving is 1 hour before work 1 hour after just to pay parking and gas for my commute.

But if I decide to expand that I would head down that route for sure.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Net - Cost = $211.82 = $17.65 per hour clear in pocket


With a 72% billable to total mile ratio, and being in a market still above $1.00/mile, that sounds about right for the busiest 12 hour shift in the week.

I am fascinated by your consistently high billable mile ratio. I still think it has to do with the city sitting on a lake, cutting the city's growth from 360 degrees of direction down to 180 degrees. That probably produces a higher population density as one travels away from downtown compared to a city where one can choose to live in twice as many directions.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> With a 72% billable to total mile ratio, and being in a market still above $1.00/mile, that sounds about right for the busiest 12 hour shift in the week.
> 
> I am fascinated by your consistently high billable mile ratio. I still think it has to do with the city sitting on a lake, cutting the city's growth from 360 degrees of direction down to 180 degrees. That probably produces a higher population density as one travels away from downtown compared to a city where one can choose to live in twice as many directions.


Yeah, that continues to be a semi-mystery, but it can be achieved from time to time, usually if you just sit when closing out a fare, which tends to diminish other metrics, such as fares per hour.

His total fares are about right for the shift time though. Actually pretty good. I usually can clock in the 30 fare range, give or take a few, for similar time shifts. Doesn't look like he was slacking.

I'd like to hear more about his state of mind in the last couple of hours...patience levels, pax issues, etc.


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Thanks for the idea. It may be a good option, but I don't see me doing this long term. For me right now it's more of a bit of an experiment to get some numbers so I am better prepared with city council when I speak with them. I do enjoy it and get good feedback from riders. And right now my normal driving is 1 hour before work 1 hour after just to pay parking and gas for my commute.
> 
> But if I decide to expand that I would head down that route for sure.


$17.00 before or after income tax?

What car runs at 32cents per mile?

Can you fill me in with these stats:

How much did you pay for it?
How many miles/kms on it when bought?
How many extra mile/ kms is Uber loading up on it (paid and unpaid)?
How long do you expect to keep the vehicle?


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> With a 72% billable to total mile ratio, and being in a market still above $1.00/mile, that sounds about right for the busiest 12 hour shift in the week.
> 
> I am fascinated by your consistently high billable mile ratio. I still think it has to do with the city sitting on a lake, cutting the city's growth from 360 degrees of direction down to 180 degrees. That probably produces a higher population density as one travels away from downtown compared to a city where one can choose to live in twice as many directions.


Its safe to say Toronto has a predictable people flow. People during the 5pm to 12am shift move from North to South. Then from South to North when the nights end. There is Horizontal movement but that stays within the city limits. Around the 3am mark you get the bar crowd making the Exodus from the city. Those are the big fares and most of the time it ends your night.

As for dead miles density of drivers and riders keeps the flow good with little travel to the pax. Most pickups are less than a KM away.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Yeah, that continues to be a semi-mystery, but it can be achieved from time to time, usually if you just sit when closing out a fare, which tends to diminish other metrics, such as fares per hour.
> 
> His total fares are about right for the shift time though. Actually pretty good. I usually can clock in the 30 fare range, give or take a few, for similar time shifts. Doesn't look like he was slacking.
> 
> I'd like to hear more about his state of mind in the last couple of hours...patience levels, pax issues, etc.


I can tell you I needed to force the smile on my face by the time the drunks go out. I have done the drunk shift before but I would say I started much later at say 11 PM. Adding the day shift did wear me down a bit. There were a few pax issues wit bad pin drops but I took the tie to find them instead of writing them off with a cancel. It worked out ok as one guy who pin dropped far away wouldn't stop apologising and thanked me for my patience. He even tipped me $2 an made a point of showing me that he gave me 5 stars. So It was all good. No other big issues. All worked out ok.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> There were a few pax issues wit bad pin drops but I took the tie to find them instead of writing them off with a cancel. It worked out ok as one guy who pin dropped far away wouldn't stop apologising and thanked me for my patience. He even tipped me $2 an made a point of showing me that he gave me 5 stars.


The other ones didn't give you a five.

Just sayin'.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

Sydney Uber said:


> $17.00 before or after income tax?
> 
> What car runs at 32cents per mile?
> 
> ...


1) Yes $17 before income tax. But expect that to be nil since expenses will cover that off.
2)2010 Mazda 3 with a 2.5l engine. Runs at $0.32 per km
3)72000 km on the car when purchased for $11000
4)Expected km per year is 20000 km combined personal and Uber. I commute 20km each way to work and back Est. And my Uberr driving is part of that existing commute.
5) Car will sold this summer for a new Chevy Volt. Electric will be better for my commute. Uber maybe done by then.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> The other ones didn't give you a five.
> 
> Just sayin'.


4.81 I must have got a few. Hope it will climb as others log on his week to rate.


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## Noobler (Feb 12, 2015)

Like Actionjax I too keep my paid KM's way above the dead KM's, and i have only been doing this for a week. Reading Actionjax's posts, I follow a personal rule for myself to not drive around for a ping, just park where i dropped off the last guy and wait for a ping. Works pretty much any place in the city except the far northwest part. Uber is becoming very popular in our city each passing week.

That's one heck of a shift Actionjax. I ended up doing 9 hours on saturday (I had worked 7 hours the previous night at my fulltime job, went straight to APP ON status after work in the morning). My take home after Uber fees was $161.15. Paid KM's was 122.01 and dead KM's were 86.54. Stayed mainly in the North end of the city. When i got rides from north going into downtown, i did at most 2 downtown pings before heading back north. I dont know downtown as much, and I dont wanna get rated a 1 for going a bad route or seeming clueless where some intersection is lol.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Noobler said:


> Like Actionjax I too keep my paid KM's way above the dead KM's, and i have only been doing this for a week. Reading Actionjax's posts, I follow a personal rule for myself to not drive around for a ping, just park where i dropped off the last guy and wait for a ping. Works pretty much any place in the city except the far northwest part. Uber is becoming very popular in our city each passing week.
> 
> That's one heck of a shift Actionjax. I ended up doing 9 hours on saturday (I had worked 7 hours the previous night at my fulltime job, went straight to APP ON status after work in the morning). My take home after Uber fees was $161.15. Paid KM's was 122.01 and dead KM's were 86.54. Stayed mainly in the North end of the city. When i got rides from north going into downtown, i did at most 2 downtown pings before heading back north. I dont know downtown as much, and I dont wanna get rated a 1 for going a bad route or seeming clueless where some intersection is lol.


Your paid to dead is far more realistic. Very seldom in a long shift do I avoid a 50/50, but I run in a big burb area which tends to promote more dead miles coming back to heavier pay zones.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> 4.81 I must have got a few. Hope it will climb as others log on his week to rate.


Or maybe not. Who was that Uber driver dick with the cotton head? 1*!


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> 1) Yes $17 before income tax. But expect that to be nil since expenses will cover that off.
> 2)2010 Mazda 3 with a 2.5l engine. Runs at $0.32 per km
> 3)72000 km on the car when purchased for $11000
> 4)Expected km per year is 20000 km combined personal and Uber. I commute 20km each way to work and back Est. And my Uberr driving is part of that existing commute.
> 5) Car will sold this summer for a new Chevy Volt. Electric will be better for my commute. Uber maybe done by then.


I like the Volt also. But they are not "Uber-Approved" as they come standard with a rear seat which only can fit two passengers.

It's been two years since I looked at a Volt so they may have released a different setup.

Too bad X rates can't support a Tesla. That is one incredibly desirable vehicle!


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

Sydney Uber said:


> I like the Volt also. But they are not "Uber-Approved" as they come standard with a rear seat which only can fit two passengers.
> 
> It's been two years since I looked at a Volt so they may have released a different setup.
> 
> Too bad X rates can't support a Tesla. That is one incredibly desirable vehicle!


New 2016 Volt will change that. Its 3 seats in the back so it will be allowed according to Uber Toronto. Uber Ottawa has already allowed the Volt in that market after telling me it wasn't approved. I think they are hurting for drivers so they are bending the rules there.

We have 2 Tesla's here doing UberX in Toronto. One guy started same time I did. He has been a local legend around here with customers.


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> With a 72% billable to total mile ratio, and being in a market still above $1.00/mile, that sounds about right for the busiest 12 hour shift in the week.
> 
> I am fascinated by your consistently high billable mile ratio. I still think it has to do with the city sitting on a lake, cutting the city's growth from 360 degrees of direction down to 180 degrees. That probably produces a higher population density as one travels away from downtown compared to a city where one can choose to live in twice as many directions.


Toronto is actually quite large, and has no issues with land. I used to live there, so I'm familiar with the terrain. The downtown, however, is very concentrated, so that means a lot of trips in a small area of the city. I had a friend of mine who lived right by the University of Toronto, and I would often walk from his place to the heart of Toronto in about 45 minutes. That's a lot of people in a just a few miles.


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## bilyvh (Feb 4, 2015)

A Tesla running on UberX? WTF? That doesn't qualify for Black in Toronto?


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

Actionjax said:


> 1) Yes $17 before income tax. But expect that to be nil since expenses will cover that off.
> 2)2010 Mazda 3 with a 2.5l engine. Runs at $0.32 per km
> 3)72000 km on the car when purchased for $11000
> 4)Expected km per year is 20000 km combined personal and Uber. I commute 20km each way to work and back Est. And my Uberr driving is part of that existing commute.
> 5) Car will sold this summer for a new Chevy Volt. Electric will be better for my commute. Uber maybe done by then.


Just make sure you get the 2.0 Volt. I've been eyeing the Volt for a long time.


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

Actionjax said:


> New 2016 Volt will change that. Its 3 seats in the back so it will be allowed according to Uber Toronto. Uber Ottawa has already allowed the Volt in that market after telling me it wasn't approved. I think they are hurting for drivers so they are bending the rules there.
> 
> We have 2 Tesla's here doing UberX in Toronto. One guy started same time I did. He has been a local legend around here with customers.


I just replied about waiting for the new Volt, so it's good to see that you are going to get this one.
As for Ottawa. Uber isn't even legal so I'm not sure how much weight that carries in the Big Smoke.


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

bilyvh said:


> A Tesla running on UberX? WTF? That doesn't qualify for Black in Toronto?


Who would run UberX on a car that is $90K minimum in Canada???


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

uberThere said:


> Who would run UberX on a car that is $90K minimum in Canada???


I HATE Electric cars. The way they look, the "message" they carry, the limitations they have, the threat to my 6l V8 Caprice.

You walk towards a shiny Tesla, plugged into a wall socket, and it starts really messing with your head. Decades of automotive prejudice being replaced in an instant by arousal then desire. The experience reminded me of my first sexual encounter with a Black chick. Realising in an instant the vanilla, beige palette I had been happy with till then.

Then you go for drive. If you've driven a Tesla, you'll know why economics would be the last reason you'd run it as a UberX car.

Here's a Video


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

bilyvh said:


> A Tesla running on UberX? WTF? That doesn't qualify for Black in Toronto?


You need to be licenced as a limo driver for Black. Some people don't want that commitment of taking the city mandated 2 week course, or the $1000 in the fees for the course and the licence.

Then there is the $12000 yearly for commercial insurance.

Doesn't make sense for a part time job or a temp gig.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

uberThere said:


> Who would run UberX on a car that is $90K minimum in Canada???


I met the guy. He is a chiropractor who threw his back out. It was a temp job till he recovered and went back to work. Not sure if he is still out there. The other Tesla don't know his story.


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

Sydney Uber said:


> I HATE Electric cars. The way they look, the "message" they carry, the limitations they have, the threat to my 6l V8 Caprice.
> 
> You walk towards a shiny Tesla, plugged into a wall socket, and it starts really messing with your head. Decades of automotive prejudice being replaced in an instant by arousal then desire. The experience reminded me of my first sexual encounter with a Black chick. Realising in an instant the vanilla, beige palette I had been happy with till then.
> 
> ...


It isn't actually that great to drive, except for the acceleration, the steering is rather numb, and it's lap times are horrible. The finish isn't that of a $100K car; closing the door felt like my old Chevette.


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

Actionjax said:


> I met the guy. He is a chiropractor who threw his back out. It was a temp job till he recovered and went back to work. Not sure if he is still out there. The other Tesla don't know his story.


A chiro who thew his back out? Now that's irony.


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

uberThere said:


> It isn't actually that great to drive, except for the acceleration, the steering is rather numb, and it's lap times are horrible. The finish isn't that of a $100K car; closing the door felt like my old Chevette.


I beg to differ. I've driven a Audi R8 V10 & Porche 993 GTS on a track, yes they would be 10-15% quicker. But the Tesla has 4 doors, can carry 7 in total with the rear option and deliver amazing fuel economy at Supercar speeds.

The R8 is a highly strung super car - beyond my capabilities to tame. The Porsche made driving insanely quick ridiculously easy. That's what the Tesla felt like. Very usable power in a tight balanced body.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

So here is my week breakdown that you can see the results from the week. This includes this Saturday shift on how Uber seen the week.


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

Sydney Uber said:


> I beg to differ. I've driven a Audi R8 V10 & Porche 993 GTS on a track, yes they would be 10-15% quicker. But the Tesla has 4 doors, can carry 7 in total with the rear option and deliver amazing fuel economy at Supercar speeds.
> 
> The R8 is a highly strung super car - beyond my capabilities to tame. The Porsche made driving insanely quick ridiculously easy. That's what the Tesla felt like. Very usable power in a tight balanced body.


I appreciate you reply, I don't want to get too far afield, but I'm glad to see another car fan here.

The 993 is old-school, and hasn't been around since the late 90's, so I don't believe that it's a fair comparison. Audi is going to produce an BEV R8 - it's either coming out in 2016 or 2017, and that will be an interesting comparision. It's promising a 0-60 in 3.9 sec, which is what the P85+ was capable of. The Tesla is also not capable of sustaining top speed for more than a few minutes before the active thermal management system throttles back the power to prevent over-heating. Furthermore, the top speed of the Tesla P85D is only 155MPH, so the Porche 991 and Audi R8 are both much quicker than just 10-15%. In fact, the Tesla P85 was only slightly faster on the Nuringburg track than a Ford Transit - ouch.

Don't get me wrong, it's a decent car, but IMHO, it doesn't compare very well to other cars in its class. Of course, opinons vary, and I can only state my own.


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

Actionjax said:


> So here is my week breakdown that you can see the results from the week. This includes this Saturday shift on how Uber seen the week.


Did you take today off? I think you'd still be recovering after driving like that.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

uberThere said:


> Did you take today off? I think you'd still be recovering after driving like that.


I don't know about you but after running back to back 12 hour stints on Fri and Sat, Sunday it's like a having a hangover for me.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

uberThere said:


> Did you take today off? I think you'd still be recovering after driving like that.


No way. But lets face it I was a little less sharp on Sunday. Girlfriend thought I was a zombie most of the day.


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

uberThere said:


> I appreciate you reply, I don't want to get too far afield, but I'm glad to see another car fan here.
> 
> The 993 is old-school, and hasn't been around since the late 90's, so I don't believe that it's a fair comparison. Audi is going to produce an BEV R8 - it's either coming out in 2016 or 2017, and that will be an interesting comparision. It's promising a 0-60 in 3.9 sec, which is what the P85+ was capable of. The Tesla is also not capable of sustaining top speed for more than a few minutes before the active thermal management system throttles back the power to prevent over-heating. Furthermore, the top speed of the Tesla P85D is only 155MPH, so the Porche 991 and Audi R8 are both much quicker than just 10-15%. In fact, the Tesla P85 was only slightly faster on the Nuringburg track than a Ford Transit - ouch.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, it's a decent car, but IMHO, it doesn't compare very well to other cars in its class. Of course, opinons vary, and I can only state my own.


I think I got my Porsche model numbers messed up. It was only about 3 yrs old (that was 2 yrs ago) maybe 911 GTS 4, I'll ask my client next time I see him. He sold it and bought an SLS Merc. Haven't had a burn in that yet!

There's a Vid of a Tesla holding onto a BMW M5 for quite a few laps at Laguna Seca (hate that track - on every video game I'd crash on the dropping right hander).

The bucket of iced water that the Tesla is for guys brought up on 427" blocks is how in such a short Time they've been able to come to market with such hot cars.

Oh by the way - there's another development - I only hope I live long enough and one of my daughters becomes a Tennis Pro for me to afford this baby!


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

Actionjax said:


> No way. But lets face it I was a little less sharp on Sunday. Girlfriend thought I was a zombie most of the day.


It's bad enough with the time change today for me.



scrurbscrud said:


> I don't know about you but after running back to back 12 hour stints on Fri and Sat, Sunday it's like a having a hangover for me.


But without the fun times, that really sucks.


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

Sydney Uber said:


> I think I got my Porsche model numbers messed up. It was only about 3 yrs old (that was 2 yrs ago) maybe 911 GTS 4, I'll ask my client next time I see him. He sold it and bought an SLS Merc. Haven't had a burn in that yet!
> 
> There's a Vid of a Tesla holding onto a BMW M5 for quite a few laps at Laguna Seca (hate that track - on every video game I'd crash on the dropping right hander).
> 
> ...


I think that was the 991, but I don't remember the exact date it was put on the market. It's a great car, and still has the classic styling.

I have to admit that for a company that is only 12 years old, they've been impressive. They've certainly seem to have got the attention of the large auto makers, I'm pro-EV, so it's all good. I'm looking into an Outlander PHEV, whenever it makes its way to Canada. It was suppose to be introduced already, but they are just selling so well that we're not a priority.

That Mercedes is a great looking car, but it's over $500K here, and unless I win the lottery, I'll only be able to look at it in car mags


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## RusTO (Mar 10, 2015)

No offence but it kinda feels that figures you provided are a little bit overrated. I drive in TO too and know that getting $400 a night is super hard. $350 max at most in that time frame (10hrs) possibly? Unless you got a lot of super sweet rides to vaughan and at 2.0 surcharge. Maybe, but minus uber commission (+-$70) + gas (which is probably another $30 or even a lil more considering 400km 2.5 l for ur car). 

Realistically it is really one of the lucky trips because people tend to switch off their devices quickly once the area starts surging. Also, there are a lot of stupid small trips in DT where your mileage wouldn't be that high or your mileage should be super higher if u do a lot of trips to places like vaughan/scar. But then again you can't do it on and on because it takes at least 1 hr to go back and forth and that is 50km however such surcharges last only from 2-3 in dt.

So no offence man but Im a little bit frustrated with Uber doing it for a while now. Uber 20% commission just kills it really, plus gas of course. Like In the long run there is wear and tear costs plus additional money to be involved as oil has to be changed more quickly, car needs to be in a cleaner condition, ie washed (like another $10) more often.

A lot of people tell me that they dont mind paying a lil more for uber due to the convenience factor, no cash involvement element, reliability of getting to the location etc 
But 0.25 per km and 0.80 per minute with 2.75 initial fee and 20% commission? Like cm on. 

In reality it is no more $10h minus wear and tear, oil change, risks of dealing with drunk people, late nights and additional challenge to keep up with good rating.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Gotta love honesty.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

RusTO said:


> No offence but it kinda feels that figures you provided are a little bit overrated. I drive in TO too and know that getting $400 a night is super hard. $350 max at most in that time frame (10hrs) possibly? Unless you got a lot of super sweet rides to vaughan and at 2.0 surcharge. Maybe, but minus uber commission (+-$70) + gas (which is probably another $30 or even a lil more considering 400km 2.5 l for ur car).
> 
> Realistically it is really one of the lucky trips because people tend to switch off their devices quickly once the area starts surging. Also, there are a lot of stupid small trips in DT where your mileage wouldn't be that high or your mileage should be super higher if u do a lot of trips to places like vaughan/scar. But then again you can't do it on and on because it takes at least 1 hr to go back and forth and that is 50km however such surcharges last only from 2-3 in dt.
> 
> ...


Maybe you just need to check your strategy on how you are driving and when. I average between $12 and $15 per hour clear when I work. I have done $31 gross 2 weeks running and top drivers are doing $29 for the same period.

Maybe its just you and the spots you pick.

Sounds to me is the threshold on what you expect for take home doing this is a bit lofty. I have always said its a minimum wage gig. Getting lucky on a night is part of what this is.

Just a quick correction it's $0.25 per min and $0.80 per km. 20% take on Ubers part is quite fair when you look at what they are providing for that service.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Gotta love honesty.


Everyone has a right to an opinion. Not sure where the issue lies. Been out multiple times even trying to go loose money and no issues.

Mind you I did hit a pot hole today and blew out the sidewall on my tire. had to limp home on the spare. Sure that will eat into todays profits.

Good thing I have the tire insurance. Lets see how well it holds up.


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

Actionjax said:


> Mind you I did hit a pot hole today and blew out the sidewall on my tire. had to limp home on the spare. Sure that will eat into todays profits.


Welcome to Canada.
I've seen some huge pot holes here lately, and it takes some skill to avoid them all.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Everyone has a right to an opinion. Not sure where the issue lies. Been out multiple times even trying to go loose money and no issues.
> 
> Mind you I did hit a pot hole today and blew out the sidewall on my tire. had to limp home on the spare. Sure that will eat into todays profits.
> 
> Good thing I have the tire insurance. Lets see how well it holds up.


I'm not taking issue with your personal stats. But in the long run, apart from unique circumstances, your dead to paid mile ratio's are not the norm. And you're totally right that it's still a min. wage gig. AND that at your rate, which is 30% or more higher than many major cities in the U.S. In most places here it's driving at a real LOSS of money to the drivers.

And the risks...are totally not worth it, even at minimum wage. I'm surprised at the driver desperation myself. To me this whole setup is just running a scam on drivers. Who want's to be a part time cabbie scam. A step below the stuffing envelopes scam.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> I'm not taking issue with your personal stats. But in the long run, apart from unique circumstances, your dead to paid mile ratio's are not the norm. And you're totally right that it's still a min. wage gig. AND that at your rate, which is 30% or more higher than many major cities in the U.S. In most places here it's driving at a real LOSS of money to the drivers.
> 
> And the risks...are totally not worth it, even at minimum wage. I'm surprised at the driver desperation myself. To me this whole setup is just running a scam on drivers. Who want's to be a part time cabbie scam. A step below the stuffing envelopes scam.


Just to give you an idea I went out yesterday and did 48KM when I had my blow out. 30.7 were paid km. And that's including a dead run to pick up a pax that I needed to cancel out on because of the flat tire. So I again don't know why these are the numbers. But I stop and park and never move till the next ride after the drop. Most stop spots are less than 1/2 a km away.

Made a Gross of $76.66 for 3 hours. All were smaller fares averaging 10 bucks. 7 trip completed in total.

So no matter how you slice it I keep getting the same ratio here. I think the issue is some people think that driving around makes things better. I can tell you there are few dead zones even in places in the outskirts of the city. Either I'm the luckiest driver on Earth or that's just what things are doing around here. Key is stay put. I see drivers always moving around on the map and that's just a waste of time and money.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Just to give you an idea I went out yesterday and did 48KM when I had my blow out. 30.7 were paid km. And that's including a dead run to pick up a pax that I needed to cancel out on because of the flat tire. So I again don't know why these are the numbers. But I stop and park and never move till the next ride after the drop. Most stop spots are less than 1/2 a km away.
> 
> Made a Gross of $76.66 for 3 hours. All were smaller fares averaging 10 bucks. 7 trip completed in total.
> 
> So no matter how you slice it I keep getting the same ratio here. I think the issue is some people think that driving around makes things better. I can tell you there are few dead zones even in places in the outskirts of the city. Either I'm the luckiest driver on Earth or that's just what things are doing around here. Key is stay put. I see drivers always moving around on the map and that's just a waste of time and money.


Dead miles and dead time are inevitable consequences. In most cities you catch a run to the outskirts and would sit there all day without a ping. So your option is dead miles. No way around it.

Citing in the city without dead miles has another consequence. Round after round of minimum fares. You can only turn so many of these an hour.

Having an average of 7 $10 fares in the city is also another rare bird. And from my understanding and practice with Uber, if you are not close to the pax ping, you're not going to get it.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Dead miles and dead time are inevitable consequences. In most cities you catch a run to the outskirts and would sit there all day without a ping. So your option is dead miles. No way around it.
> 
> Citing in the city without dead miles has another consequence. Round after round of minimum fares. You can only turn so many of these an hour.
> 
> Having an average of 7 $10 fares in the city is also another rare bird. And from my understanding and practice with Uber, if you are not close to the pax ping, you're not going to get it.


Regardless it's still not a washout up here. And I agree most cities I can see this happening. When UberX first launched here unless you were right downtown you were in a dead zone. Now I can pick up a ping just about anywhere. The fact that I got a Ping in Woodbridge (That's about 45 min outside the city core and a real bedroom community) at 4AM was completely unexpected. Otherwise I was looking at a dead ride about 20 KM back to the city where you can still get some pings uptown. But on a normal night I would have packed it in and drove home. that's about 15 km back to my place.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Regardless it's still not a washout up here. And I agree most cities I can see this happening. When UberX first launched here unless you were right downtown you were in a dead zone. Now I can pick up a ping just about anywhere. The fact that I got a Ping in Woodbridge (That's about 45 min outside the city core and a real bedroom community) at 4AM was completely unexpected. Otherwise I was looking at a dead ride about 20 KM back to the city where you can still get some pings uptown. But on a normal night I would have packed it in and drove home. that's about 15 km back to my place.


Many nights it only takes 2 or 3 surge fares to make an entire evening worthwhile. Many times I've had 2 or 3 surge fares represent 1/3 to 1/2 of the fare total of 20-30 fares. Surge totally skewers the numbers. Long trips do similarly, as you note above on a long two way. Two long trips, one out, one back, make up for 5 min. fares to bring up the total. But they are RARE.

Since the rate cuts it's a whole new ball game. One that is not worth going on the field for. Long trips with no surge are now officially money losers for the drivers. And hoping for a long two way will normally just kill hours waiting for what might not happen.


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## Noobler (Feb 12, 2015)

My paid to dead KM's are very much like Actionjax's. Like him I park after a drop-off, no matter what part of the city.

I try to stay out of downtown as well, and pretty much stay entirely in the north end (thornhill/markham) or west end (etobicoke and missisauga).

I stayed the entire saturday morning in mississauga after i had a long ride out to there from downtown. I was pinged within minutes of every drop off i had, and had a total of i think 7 or 8 rides there. 

What is good doing the north end or west end is that all the rides are long rides. average each ride is 20.00. 

I still get steady pings all the way up to 2am, then it slows down and the pings are farther away, but the rides are still there all night till sun-up.


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## RusTO (Mar 10, 2015)

@Actionjax Really don't want be an asshole man after your comments but I really don't believe in your figures (as well as
do not share your optimism unless you actually work for Uber admin).

Your comment regarding the strategy is kinda ridiculous in the way that you have no knowledge where the client
is going to go until you register them in your car and start the ride (40% of times though they would only register
the location only once they get in to your car). In addition, the probability that the person your are picking on King/Spadina 
is going to, say, Scar/Vaughan etc, i.e. $30-50 ride is exactly the same as if client is just going to Fort York/Spadina.
Statistically though (and more realistically) you will probably get 1 ride out of 10 who will do long ride and 9 would be
no more than $10-12 (probably even less than $10).

Below are also statistics based on my last week's stats:

Mon (03/09) - Sun (03/15 almost 03/16) as Ive finished at 1am this morning.

Total fare: $1283
Uber commission: $261
Gross Pay: $1022
Time: 56-60 hours (Worked almost every night except Tue
worked till 4am on Fri/Sat nights)
Less: Gas $120
Net pay: $900
Pay ph: $15ph
Rating: 4.85

Mileage: 1500km

Therefore as you can see the picture doesn't look that great should one continue doing same amount of hours
per month, i.e. 240 hours and only get $3600. The major difference though with FT job is that doing that you don't 
get any medical insurance, no social benefits. No nothing, at all! even with $15 in very best case scenario.

However the mileage with the same utilization of the vehicle would most likely be at least 72,000km per year(!),
i.e. 1500km x 4 x 12. Meaning that the value your vehicle would be losing is just insane. Plus oil changes, plus other vehicles services, plus...
got forbid accident repair(s).

In addition, I saw your comments on the other section of the forum where you talk about insurance and
really the risk of getting into trouble which rise substantially(!) along with the fact that really our insurance policies 
should be at least $700 per month (in a good case scenario) which is pretty much triple to what Im paying now.
However, most likely you will not get coverage from insurance companies at all (or some kinda quote at $15,000).

Taxes. I didn't see anything where you talk about the tax you have to pay on such income. Ie the moment tax authorities
decide you review your bank statements and see that you have $1000 injections into your account from Uber and didn't 
report nor pay any of that in addition to the tax due you will also be hit with penalty and interest charges very
very painfully.

Rating. Basically your attitude has to be impeccable to sustain such rating meaning that you are really have to stay positive
at all times with customers, talk about how Uber is great and the rest blah blah blah. Besides all that the only reason I got bad
reviews were the times when people were really having a bad day and one lady even gave me probably 1* just because Ive stopped
literally 10m away from her location however I was exactly on point according to GPS and there was even a city sign with the
location where I was standing! Absolutely ungrounded imo. Like how Iam supposed to know every single customer and I did start
txting her right away and she is giving attitude like I robbed her or smith.

In addition, although generally the clients are pretty cool I've also had 4 guys yesterday who literally went from Westin on
Harbourfront and wanted to go to in an around Sound Academy area (guess they were some kinda late night port workers) but dressed
absolutely filthy(!), like so gross and at the same time looking super sketchy too. Besides that they literally jumped into my car without me
having ability to screen them as the guy with the uber profile sat in front seat the the rest jumped into the back seat.
Like it took me 5-7 minutes to get from Adelaide to get through all the traffic after Raptors game, only to receive $6 ride with filthy 4 guys who had 5* rating! and then spend 5 minutes cleaning and refreshing my vehicle.
Is this really farr to the driver? Like no additional passenger surchage, no consideration of the client profile, shitty ride with some much time
waste and all for $6?

At the end of the day, maybe you got really lucky with that 1.8 surcharge ride to Vaughan (not gonna lie I got super sweet ride last week too, one from richmond to scar, first dropping clients gf and then driving him to Richmond Hill which was in total almost $70 ride as well as another 1.4 surcharge from Kensington Market to Victoria Park at 3am at $40 and etc) but in the long run you will be losing doing that even if you are not going to get into any trouble which is super possible with that kind of activity.

Like thank god I didn't have any super wasted people in my car over the last 2 weeks Ive been doing it nor aggressive or any other bs however
puking etc, conflicts, accidents in that environment happen way way more often.

In addition, Uber is also not doing any promotional $1000 promo to drivers anymore the way they used to do in states a year ago when drivers were starting of. The whole legal area in Canada with all the court cases undergoing at the moment is super shady too. Eg. say, in case if police approaches you and that cop is in a bad mood or, for instance, if you will get into any kind of trouble with clients. Like and all that for $11 per hour?! Cm on, man! That's ridiculous.

Working in a restaurant as a server is probably even more rewarding, i.e 8 hour shift at $11h + tips (my buddy works in a decent restaurant and order at min. $100 on nights are the norm meaning he gets $20 tip per order and, say, you have 2 clients per hour at minimum $20 x 2 x 8 = $200 a nigh just in tips + $80 your wages, say, it even $230 but that's is the pay without any enormous uber risks!

IMHO, It is also kinda ridiculous the way uber talks about in their promo videos to driver "oh, how about you offer your clients some water or a chewing gum or mint?". Like who pays for that? Them? Absolutely No.

Oh, and I completely forget to mention that I did wash my car 2 last week. So here is another $20 expense on top of everything. Plus I did vacuum my vehicle after every single night. Plus I do also have a good vehicle to operate, only 2 years old, clean and very presentable.

So my point is I would really believe your figures and all optimism if you will show your reports too with mileage and all(!) expenses man.

Finally, imho opinion is the same policy towards driver is going to continue Uber is just going to have a lot of very very shady cars and drivers if they are going to continue ripping more or less drivers like me as it is really completely not economically nor realistically profitable doing that at all. Ironic though that even clients talk about how they love Uber and would even use it if prices were the same as cabs however they love driver's attitude, car cleanliness, ability to control the whole call up thing, security, no cash involvement element and etc etc...... but at the end of the day, all that at the drivers expense but where Uber is now worth $40 billion(!).

I can obviously continue here but guess you got my point and I think I have very grounded premises which are super difficult to challenge and imho uber is not going to have successful future unless they change their game towards drivers big time.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RusTO, your net expression is common for full timers. Actionjax is operating like most part timers, cherry picking heavy pax hours for substantially less (overall) pay and that difference skewers both numbers and his experience compared to yours as a full timer.

Full timers know it's a shit deal.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

Thanks for the detailed response...Lets see if we can break down your concerns.

First off I never have ever promoted this as a full time gig. In fact I have had many conversations to persuade otherwise and members who have asked my council have been given that very information. For part time work it is lucrative for something that requires little skill, flexible work times and for the most part you can claim back against your car.

Lets start with the breakdown



RusTO said:


> really don't believe in your figures (as well as
> do not share your optimism unless you actually work for Uber admin).


Don't work for Uber and I don't care what you believe. That's the numbers. You want to pick a time and date and run against me and we can compare the numbers if you like.



RusTO said:


> Your comment regarding the strategy is kinda ridiculous in the way that you have no knowledge where the client
> is going to go until you register them in your car and start the ride (40% of times though they would only register
> the location only once they get in to your car).


While I don't have a crystal ball there is better odds when you know the areas to look and the flows of people during different times of the day. Condo's along King west are hot beds during certain times and most move short distances.

Yonge and Eglington area is Uptown moving to downtown between 6 - 9PM on weekends. Also big during the 7AM to 9AM shifts that go all the way to the core. When in the core go to King west and it will move to the core or back to uptown.

Although fares are not predictable movement of people is. And odds are when you know this you can make the most of things.



RusTO said:


> Below are also statistics based on my last week's stats:
> 
> Mon (03/09) - Sun (03/15 almost 03/16) as Ive finished at 1am this morning.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the stats. Kind of a sad return on a 56-60 hour work week. What hours are you doing? Are you out for the rush hour? What time do you start on the weekends? It's not the amount of hours but cherry picking the best ones and playing the weather to the advantage. Cold snaps and snow can play into that.

Is this typical of your week?



RusTO said:


> Therefore as you can see the picture doesn't look that great should one continue doing same amount of hours
> per month, i.e. 240 hours and only get $3600. The major difference though with FT job is that doing that you don't
> get any medical insurance, no social benefits. No nothing, at all! even with $15 in very best case scenario.


I never disagreed with that. And if you want those benefits find a full time job somewhere. Uber is not a place where you will find these benefits. And they are not advertising them.



RusTO said:


> However the mileage with the same utilization of the vehicle would most likely be at least 72,000km per year(!),
> i.e. 1500km x 4 x 12. Meaning that the value your vehicle would be losing is just insane. Plus oil changes, plus other vehicles services, plus...
> got forbid accident repair(s).


Again this is the nature of wanting to be in the transport business. Your car your expenses. You don't like the deal there is other options to make money. This is the #1 reason that the rates don't match the burn for a full timer.



RusTO said:


> Taxes. I didn't see anything where you talk about the tax you have to pay on such income. Ie the moment tax authorities
> decide you review your bank statements and see that you have $1000 injections into your account from Uber and didn't
> report nor pay any of that in addition to the tax due you will also be hit with penalty and interest charges very
> very painfully.


If I was to write about taxes then we need to talk about tax write offs. And if you can honestly say the write-off's won't outweigh your taxes you are required to pay. You need to find a better accountant. Especially for full time work.



RusTO said:


> Rating. Basically your attitude has to be impeccable to sustain such rating meaning that you are really have to stay positive
> at all times with customers, talk about how Uber is great and the rest blah blah blah. Besides all that the only reason I got bad
> reviews were the times when people were really having a bad day and one lady even gave me probably 1* just because Ive stopped
> literally 10m away from her location however I was exactly on point according to GPS and there was even a city sign with the
> ...


Again this may be an attitude thing vs hours worked. I can tell you I was a little short with people by 2 AM after running 8 hours already. So you will always get bad clients. But it also depends on the type of clients you get. The times worked sometimes dictates this. My normal run times are morning and after work. All Bay st types for the most part. And I know what they are like. It all comes down to attitude.



RusTO said:


> In addition, although generally the clients are pretty cool I've also had 4 guys yesterday who literally went from Westin on
> Harbourfront and wanted to go to in an around Sound Academy area (guess they were some kinda late night port workers) but dressed
> absolutely filthy(!), like so gross and at the same time looking super sketchy too. Besides that they literally jumped into my car without me
> having ability to screen them as the guy with the uber profile sat in front seat the the rest jumped into the back seat.
> ...


If they left your car in a mess request a cleaning fee. Take pictures and submit. Sounds like it wasn't that bad. And yes bad things happen what you expect all pax to be perfect? 1* them clean it and move on.



RusTO said:


> At the end of the day, maybe you got really lucky with that 1.8 surcharge ride to Vaughan (not gonna lie I got super sweet ride last week too, one from richmond to scar, first dropping clients gf and then driving him to Richmond Hill which was in total almost $70 ride as well as another 1.4 surcharge from Kensington Market to Victoria Park at 3am at $40 and etc) but in the long run you will be losing doing that even if you are not going to get into any trouble which is super possible with that kind of activity.


Of course it's luck....that's part of the game. Sometimes it's a big win sometimes you go bust. Either way you average it out and decide for yourself if this is for you.

TO BE Continued.......


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

RusTO said:


> In addition, Uber is also not doing any promotional $1000 promo to drivers anymore the way they used to do in states a year ago when drivers were starting of. The whole legal area in Canada with all the court cases undergoing at the moment is super shady too. Eg. say, in case if police approaches you and that cop is in a bad mood or, for instance, if you will get into any kind of trouble with clients. Like and all that for $11 per hour?! Cm on, man! That's ridiculous.


Enforcement is up to the city by-law officers. Police don't care. I have shared the same parking lot with Metro and we have talked on the stuff. Any cop in a bad mood will pull you over. Not just for Uber. Don't break the traffic laws and you are fine.

You don't want to align with a shady dealings of Uber? Just stop. This is a disruptive company that will do things that are under the table to operate. Check their history. As far as promo's why would they run $1000 promos if they don't need to. They were offering when I started $500 to get new drivers on now it's $100. Looks like they found there is no shortage here to offer more.



RusTO said:


> Working in a restaurant as a server is probably even more rewarding, i.e 8 hour shift at $11h + tips (my buddy works in a decent restaurant and order at min. $100 on nights are the norm meaning he gets $20 tip per order and, say, you have 2 clients per hour at minimum $20 x 2 x 8 = $200 a nigh just in tips + $80 your wages, say, it even $230 but that's is the pay without any enormous uber risks!


I would agree who is stopping you. Just keep in mind you don't set your own hours and shifts. I did this going through college and I can say it was hard work but rewarding pay.

Uber high risk and flexible hours same reward. You need to figure out what works best for your situation.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

RusTO said:


> IMHO, It is also kinda ridiculous the way uber talks about in their promo videos to driver "oh, how about you offer your clients some water or a chewing gum or mint?". Like who pays for that? Them? Absolutely No.
> 
> Oh, and I completely forget to mention that I did wash my car 2 last week. So here is another $20 expense on top of everything. Plus I did vacuum my vehicle after every single night. Plus I do also have a good vehicle to operate, only 2 years old, clean and very presentable.
> 
> ...


This looks like more of a personal statement and I do respect that.

Just out of curiosity why did you decide to do Uber? What industry are you coming from?

While I do agree there are shortcomings with how this is laid out for drivers, I'm not sure why you again think what I have stated was promoting Uber.

I feel it's an excellent way to make a supplementary income for people who have existing jobs that they can support themselves. As for full time, I have never promoted Uber to be good for that for many of the same reasons you have stated. I just hope you were not one of those people who bought into the magic they were pushing.


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## RusTO (Mar 10, 2015)

@scrurbscrud well, I don't think he realizes to the real extent his risks and really the overall risks/rewards variable in the actul equation.

essentially, he really believes that it is really good deal he is getting by getting 2 lucky nights/weekends in a row and that it justifies losing one's insurance altogether, therefore complete loss of the use of the vehicle as a result.

As Ive mentioned too absolutely not trying to be offensive neither however it really shows complete neglect in a way of Uber themselves as effectively the driver's are their main part in the value chain. Obviously, their attitude is dictated as a lot of guys like me are trying to jump into that wagon and then realizing that not all that glitters that is really gold but im pretty sure in the long run that attitude is bankrupt. Like Im even thinking of going to a press and doing an interview with a friend of mine who works in a major newspaper. Im sure she would love the story of the controversial event/news happening as we speak and exploring the other side, "revelations of an uber driver" sorta thing because it would great a huge buzz if someone starts really talking about all pros/cons in reality as well as presenting facts.

But really uber themselves? I really dont understand how do they leave it to that stage where it will definitely bite them at the end and big time. Like in every single company outthere all they talk about "people are major asset", "empowering employee potential" and etc etc however what is essentially Uber's main element within their service delivery stream is literally so neglegted and overlooked.

So in fact now I do undestand cabbies expenses and the overall pricing and think it is really justifiable in a sense. At the same time I do share consumers outrage with driver's outrage and aggressiveness towards consumers and see where Uber's initial motivation was positive however what happen to all that in the middle? This is really where my main question lies.


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## Noobler (Feb 12, 2015)

@RusTO Would alot of your concerns be addressed if Uber raised rates like they are in the U.S. this past week? some are going up from .80cents/mile to 1.20/mile.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RusTO said:


> @scrurbscrud well, I don't think he realizes to the real extent his risks and really the overall risks/rewards variable in the actul equation.
> 
> essentially, he really believes that it is really good deal he is getting by getting 2 lucky nights/weekends in a row and that it justifies losing one's insurance altogether, therefore complete loss of the use of the vehicle as a result.


I think AJax has been pretty straight up about part time driving myself and accurate enough in his numbers and how he sees things. I consider his sights generally honest to part time reality as well as him being coherent on the risk quotients. He's fully aware that in your market part time driving will yield about 12-14 or so an hour if you catch a good weekend night or 2. To me that's probably accurate at a buck 30 a mile and 25 cents a min. with a little surge here and there.



> As Ive mentioned too absolutely not trying to be offensive neither however it really shows complete neglect in a way of Uber themselves as effectively the driver's are their main part in the value chain. Obviously, their attitude is dictated as a lot of guys like me are trying to jump into that wagon and then realizing that not all that glitters that is really gold but im pretty sure in the long run that attitude is bankrupt. Like Im even thinking of going to a press and doing an interview with a friend of mine who works in a major newspaper. Im sure she would love the story of the controversial event/news happening as we speak and exploring the other side, "revelations of an uber driver" sorta thing because it would great a huge buzz if someone starts really talking about all pros/cons in reality as well as presenting facts.


The reality of full time driving is that we are going to have weeks that are OK financially and some that really really really suck ass. Moreso on the latter count. The only times it pays for full timers is when there is a lot of extra activity going on and we get more business. But let's face it, there is only so much demand available to go around. Driver saturation is probably the biggest issue any of us face.



> But really uber themselves? I really dont understand how do they leave it to that stage where it will definitely bite them at the end and big time. Like in every single company outthere all they talk about "people are major asset", "empowering employee potential" and etc etc however what is essentially Uber's main element within their service delivery stream is literally so neglegted and overlooked.


The whole "I wanna be a cabbie" on an app game is still in it's infancy and will evolve dramatically over the next few years to a balanced reality imho. Gonna be some ups and downs along the way.


> So in fact now I do undestand cabbies expenses and the overall pricing and think it is really justifiable in a sense. At the same time I do share consumers outrage with driver's outrage and aggressiveness towards consumers and see where Uber's initial motivation was positive however what happen to all that in the middle? This is really where my main question lies.


There is no mystery to the real cost equations in the cab/livery business. Uber has found a LITTLE crack in the financial equations in the livery system, *but not as big a financial crack as the drivers asses will be able to stand for the long haul.*

The space has always been a dog fight and I expect that will continue. Just make sure it's not at your expense.


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## RusTO (Mar 10, 2015)

@Actionjax hey man see my comment above to give a little more details.

thus, indeed you are right that the main reason for signing up for uber was flexibility however Ive had absolutely no knowledge that it is completely unregulated from law perspective yet. I actually thought that there was at least some kinda minimum law specific to uber but really there is none, so the risks are way much higher than flexibilty agenda, ya know?

Next, the insurance issue. Same as above. A complete game changer for me personally.
I did think that my commission of 20% to uber does cover all the risks involved while I operate it as a share/uber ride however it does have no effect into my personal policy. Like 20% is a lot and not cover that?!

And yeah I agree with you that it is an excellent way to make extra money and actually like doing it cuz meet a lot of different people however the way pricing element is set up for a driver is absolutely ridicolous to me and the payback is not sufficient considering all the risks involved again.

Thus, essentially it will all lead only to shady drivers and shady cars as normal people like me wouldn't want to do that at all.

Im an accountant but Im not qualified in Canada (elsewhere) so Im on contract now. I can take though as much work as I want work to do. Also, Im currently working on my own project though so kinda wanted to concentrate on uber more while working on it to get flexibility and however Im more likely to pass now with Uber. It's just not worth it.



Actionjax said:


> This looks like more of a personal statement and I do respect that.
> 
> Just out of curiosity why did you decide to do Uber? What industry are you coming from?
> 
> ...


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

RusTO said:


> @scrurbscrud well, I don't think he realizes to the real extent his risks and really the overall risks/rewards variable in the actul equation.
> 
> essentially, he really believes that it is really good deal he is getting by getting 2 lucky nights/weekends in a row and that it justifies losing one's insurance altogether, therefore complete loss of the use of the vehicle as a result.
> 
> ...


Who are you trying to convince. You talk the risk and rewards game here quite well yet are you still driving? Sounds like you have drawn your line in the sand on the tale the risk side with the rest of us.

For some companies employees are not an asset but a tool. And if you take care of your tools they last longer before replacing. Some abuse their tools and they replace them more often. But they are fine with that because it's part of the cost of doing business.

I don't agree with Uber's way of implementing their services from a consumer point of view. I don't think that they have attracted the most talented drivers either with the rate cuts and even what they charge out for. But what they are focusing in on is riders. Most have positive experiences but the more the negative have come out the worse it will play out for them.

I am close to the Uber management teams to know where their priorities and their business goals lie. I'm under no illusion that drivers are not first priority. They are tools to get things done. But I also need to say some of the drivers I have seen at some of the driver events are very dull tools. They have come from the Taxi business and have no clue how to give proper service. They ***** and moan to Uber about the slightest little tings like why can't I drive my old Taxi on UberX, or why can't I have my friend in the car with me. Dumb shit that they deal with and when the rider hits a 4.5 rating on their first week out they got to look at fixing the driver with a course or wash him off the books.

Point is sometime the good gets lumped in with the bad and they are all cast on the same standard.

Either way you look at your posts I am not selling Uber. I am stating the facts that have come up along the way from my viewpoint. I am in communication with members of council and they are aware of the challenges and keep them in mind for drafting regulations for TNC companies that will operate here. I would say try and book a meeting with your local member. They may be a good ear for your concerns.

Again not sure what you did before Uber but sounds like this is not working out for you.

****** Edit*******

Read your response above....thanks for the background info. And Yes the risk reward thing sometimes does not equate. I get it and for myself I have found ways to insulate this. But it's not proven and it does not work for everyone.


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## RusTO (Mar 10, 2015)

Noobler said:


> @RusTO Would alot of your concerns be addressed if Uber raised rates like they are in the U.S. this past week? some are going up from .80cents/mile to 1.20/mile.


It is not really the case of .80 to 1.20 imho now.

First of all, I think insurance factor guarantee or some sorta certainty that say I pay no more than $400 pm but I can operate my vehicle no problem that would definitely be a major factor for me.

Then, I really think Uber should really review the whole policy on rates determination. Like say you have more than 2 passengers I definitely think there should be an upcharge of at least $2 per person on short trips and deinitely more on a longer ones.

Again, getting super short rides of less than 2 blocks when some lazy diva just feel they are so cool to walk is a kinda issue for me too.

Like Im not joking Ive one last week who got a ride from shutter to adelaide all the way victoria which is probably no more than 500m. Like it took me 3 mins to drive to her location pick her up and probably longer to park when picking herand then pulling back to the road than for her to walk as it is straigh walk no more than 500m with no rain, and on a perfect pavement.... and what all that for $5? Where uber charges me $1 even in that case and losing like 15 mins on that bs? Besides that is not the only one exceptional case, like god knows how many people I had who wanted ride from e liberty village just to king st and say bathurst and ossington or from iceboat terrace to spadina and king. To me? Honestly, that was all but abuse of uber and me directly to be honest.

So I can talk a lot about all this small nitty gritty bits but what is the point?

Uber should really be thinking about it. Doing research on that, asking drivers, ie working, analyzing and improving but they don't!


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## RusTO (Mar 10, 2015)

Exactly, you are part of the Uber admin and this is what I thought from the beginning but pretending to be here the driver.

Thus, you cant even take a slight criticism and starts throwing all your "tool". Dont worry, nobody is fool here either, mate.

It's definitely been a slice but Im so up now to give the details of my story to friend of mine and public showing her all your comments!



Actionjax said:


> Who are you trying to convince. You talk the risk and rewards game here quite well yet are you still driving? Sounds like you have drawn your line in the sand on the tale the risk side with the rest of us.
> 
> For some companies employees are not an asset but a tool. And if you take care of your tools they last longer before replacing. Some abuse their tools and they replace them more often. But they are fine with that because it's part of the cost of doing business.
> 
> ...


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

RusTO said:


> Exactly, you are part of the Uber admin and this is what I thought from the beginning but pretending to be here the driver.
> 
> Thus, you cant even take a slight criticism and starts throwing all your "tool". Dont worry, nobody is fool here either, mate.
> 
> It's definitely been a slice but Im so up now to give the details of my story to friend of mine and public showing her all your comments!


You are an idiot. I told you I don't work for Uber nor part of their admin team. But you are too stupid and figure out what I do for a living. Why not go back and read some of my other posts.

I'm a senior manager at one of the big financial institutions. I do Uber Part time during my commute to and from work. I also lobby on behalf of the consumer with the City of Toronto and have met with both Uber and City Counselors and city licensing management to discuss the issues. That's how I know them.

Most of the individuals I speak to at Uber are decent people. I know them from a business prospective and understand their motivations quite well. I have also been doing this since they set up shop in late September. So I think I have a better handle on this than you think. And I do well at it.

While you only care about your own needs my motivations are to the consumers. To do that there is a fine balance between Uber, Drivers, consumers, and the industry on the whole.

Who are you to judge me...you don't know me. And you can take a hike if you think I will entertain an entitled POS like yourself. Go quit Uber and go be a waiter. You obviously have no understanding what being an independent contractor is all about. And you sure don't know what driving is all about.


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## RusTO (Mar 10, 2015)

OMG

Honestly ****** bag I think I know you better than you realize it even yourself.

First of all, I did provide facts in the first place along with all the supporting/relevant details. Whereas it is you who have conflict of interest(!) and started insulting me right away when you couldn't refute any of my points instead of concentrating on the matters and especially on the driver's interest side but now kinda trying to look good as if u do care about consumer by cherry picking at the surge hours. Ha! 

Trust me my rating definitely is best the indicator of the type driver Ive been along with points Im making above but it is really idiots like you who usually lose the temper once they are exposed.


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## RusTO (Mar 10, 2015)

Oh, is it you again using a different account but really being Uber PR person?

How come you got so quickly into this conversation out of nowhere?

First of all being critical and providing evidence along with stats has nothing to do with being A-hole.

Secondly, I have never went into direct insults and this is also driver's forum. If somebody wants to advocate on consumer's end by all means but not here.

Thirdly, I have never seen his stats and have no idea whether he talks about is true or false and even if it might be true the conversation has really shifted to my personal observation/comments on uber policies/treatment of drivers/canouflage of benefits under risks involved as well as the whole effect it makes on drivers after what he started that ridiculous tirrade calling me names and etc.

So once again I hav stated my points, suggested certain issues I see but by no means I suggest that it is the case for everyone as everyone is entitled to their own opinion however going personal is a bit too much without facts along with conflict of interest.



DenverDiane said:


> You are kinda being an A-hole right there. Why would the guy lie.
> 
> Look - he knows how to make more money than you. He knows how to do the job better than you. PLUS he is willing to share his expertise with you. You can either accept that, learn from it and do better yourself OR you can continue to believe that all the world is lying to you and the reason you aren;t doing well lies outside yourself. The choice you make whether it be Uber or any other aspect of your life will determine whether you will be a Loser or a Winner.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

RusTO said:


> OMG
> 
> Honestly ****** bag I think I know you better than you realize it even yourself.
> 
> ...


Show me where I cherry pick the surge hours. No where has this been my strategy. And in fact I have told other not to chase things like surge. In my metrics it's not even a major part of the revenue.

I'm not here to refute your points....in fact I was very sensitive to your experience and that you feel it is not going well. Instead you have continually called me a liar on here and that my statements are not true.

When it comes to the drivers interests if they align with better service for the consumer I am all ears. If they align with the old Taxi mentality of Toronto then I'm not on side with that. So why don't you take your conspiracy theories somewhere else. Because you got no credibility here. You haven't proven shit with your posting. Just a lot of complaints how you can't make money.



RusTO said:


> First of all being critical and providing evidence along with stats has nothing to do with being A-hole.
> 
> Secondly, I have never went into direct insults and this is also driver's forum. If somebody wants to advocate on consumer's end by all means but not here.
> 
> Thirdly, I have never seen his stats and have no idea whether he talks about is true or false and even if it might be true the conversation has really shifted to my personal observation/comments on uber policies/treatment of drivers/canouflage of benefits under risks involved as well as the whole effect it makes on drivers after what he started that ridiculous tirrade calling me names and etc.


You are right being critical is not being an A-Hole but saying someone's points are ether a lie or a fabrication is. Especially with no proof yourself.

And you went into direct insults depicting me as a liar and someone who works for Uber. Again a fabrication by yourself with no evidence of that.

Your personal observations are very relevant here. But I am a driver and have every right to be here and share my experiences. Even if they don't align with yours. You are the first to come here and claim poverty in the Toronto market. I would like to know how. I'm not full time and so I don't have the same experience other than when this thing first launched and I put in about 50 hours in on a single week. But instead of providing facts you are all over the map with wild statements.

Sounds to me you are more bitter you got sold on a bad deal. It's too bad you didn't find your way here sooner. We could have saved you some of the trouble.

Some of your statements are valid, others are not. (Like Taxes).

And your rating is not all that. How many trips have you done in your short stint. I'm pushing almost 800 by now. Still Hold a 4.9 rating.


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## RusTO (Mar 10, 2015)

Very sensitive by calling me an idiot? Hahaha

Show me your statements mr. Uber PR team.

Oh and how anout that vaughan trip at 1.8 surcharge and other tips on how to make money during best hours hahaha


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## cybertec69 (Jul 23, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Well just got home. 5:10 Am with the time shift. My brain is shot. That was a full 12 hours and 1/2 hour taken for dinner.
> 
> Gross take for the night was something like $399. (yep $1 shy from $400 but I made about $12 in tips)
> 
> Will give more of a breakdown tomorrow. But right now I need sleep.


Do this every day, and come back to us after a month, LOL.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

cybertec69 said:


> Do this every day, and come back to us after a month, LOL.


No thanks. I was fine with one bender thank you. I don't want to deal with 2 jobs.


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## uberThere (Feb 22, 2015)

RusTO said:


> @Actionjax hey man see my comment above to give a little more details.
> 
> thus, indeed you are right that the main reason for signing up for uber was flexibility however Ive had absolutely no knowledge that it is completely unregulated from law perspective yet. I actually thought that there was at least some kinda minimum law specific to uber but really there is none, so the risks are way much higher than flexibilty agenda, ya know?
> 
> ...


RusTO,

I'm a former CPA, where were you trained? If you have an international qualification you can always get your cert here.
You can check it up here
http://www.cpaontario.ca/Admissions/InternationallyTrainedAccountants/1010page1359.aspx


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

So figured I would post the hours where Uber was busy this week so you can compare them to the week I ran. It still says top drivers did $28 per hour. The distribution of where it was busy changed a bit.


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