# This is why you don't do Pool (or Line)



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!

The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.

Why did the geeks set only a small difference between the mileage rates and such a large difference between the time rates? Is it just some random thing? No, absolutely not. It is set this way in order to take into account an important difference between X and Pool - that of trip speeds, and therefore trip *time*.

Given similar starting locations and end locations, X trips have a significantly higher average trip speed than Pool trips. Conversely, that means that Pool trips have a significantly lower average trip speed than X. Why is this? Simply because once we pick up an X pax from their residence/office/restaurant etc, we optimise our route and take the fastest route from the pickup to the destination. If the choice is between driving through 25 mph residential streets filled with stop sign after stop sign all the way from pickup to destination or a 65 mph freeway, we take the freeway. We all should know that we earn more in a given amount of time driving 65 mph than we do at 25 mph. And if the choice were between 25 mph and stop signs or a 45 mph inter-suburb main thoroughfare with timed lights, we'd take the main thoroughfare. However, with Pool, the driver's ability to optimise the route for highest possible average speed from pickup to destination is severely limited due to the need to divert from that route to stop to pick up additional passengers. There's also the fact that picking up additional pax means waiting for them, which further lowers the average trip speed.

To demonstrate all of this, consider the following route. It starts at 6:00am on a Saturday and has one pickup and one dropoff and is a hypothetical Uber X trip. It starts in Brisbane and ends in downtown San Francisco. It is an 8.3 mile trip which takes 18 minutes. Average speed on this trip is 8.3/(18/60) = 28 mph. The speed is relatively high for a city drive because the 101 freeway can be used for most of the route.










Now consider the same trip, with the same passenger, with the same starting point and the same destination. Only this time, the ride is a Pool ride, and two additional pax are added. The driver must come off the freeway after a few miles and go back onto surface residential streets to stop and pick up pax 2 at Colby St, and then through more residential streets to make another stop to pick up pax 3 at 19th street. Then he drives along more 25 mph streets to get back to the freeway. Pax 3's destination is deeper into downtown than pax 1's, and this will mean an extra mile of driving though downtown traffic compared with the X trip. As you can see, the trip distance for this Pool trip is 13.2 miles and the trip duration is 53 minutes. Average speed for this trip drops down to (13.2/(53/60)) = 15 mph. This is because the Pool trip could not make extensive use of the higher-speed route.










Earnings for the X trip would be:
Base - $1.60
Miles - $8.03
Time - $3.17
Total - $12.80

Earnings for the Pool trip would be:
Base - $1.60
Miles - $12.25
Time - $6.36
Add'l Pickups - $2.00
Total - $22.21

So the Pool trip earns more than the X trip. Great, right?! No. On the Pool trip, the driver would have earned $9.41 more, or 73% more money than the X trip. But the Pool trip would take him 53 minutes to complete instead of just 18 minutes on the X trip. That's an additional 35 minutes, or 194% more time. For only 73% more money.

If the both trips started at 6:00am, the X driver would be done and ready for his next ride at 6:18am. He earns $12.80 in 18 minutes, or $42.67 per hour equivalent. The Pool driver, however, would not finish his Pool until 6:53am. He earns $22.21 in 53 minutes, or $25.14 per hour. That's a massive earnings drop of 42% on an hourly basis.

As stated earlier, Pool hits drivers with a double whammy. Again, average trip speeds are consistently lower on Pool rides than on X rides because of the lower ability on Pool trips to optimize the route by taking faster roads. But there's also the fact that the time element of our pay becomes more important on lower-speed trips than it is on higher-speed trips. When you're gridlocked in traffic, what's paying you is the per-minute time rate much more than the distance rate. Again, Uber knows this perfectly well, and that is why their per-minute rate is so much lower on slower, longer duration Pool trips than it is on faster X trips. The double whammy of lower trip speed _and _significantly lower pay per minute really hits drivers by lowering their hourly earnings substantially, as above, from $42.67 to $25.14.

The above example will hold true in any like-for-like comparison between X and Pool where the trips have similar start and end points, and where the route of the X trip can be optimized by taking higher-speed roads than the Pool trip would take. Which will be every route over a mile or so. The above example trips were programmed during non-peak traffic times but during rush hour, when Pool trips get even more bogged down battling through clogged downtowns to pick up or drop off several pax, the earnings differences between X and Pool are even greater.

Some might say, Uber included, that a Pool trip could turn into a long chain and earn more money than an X trip. That's totally true - that's exactly what happened in the example above. The Pool driver did earn more on his trip than the X driver, but he took way more time to do the trip, resulting in a massive earnings-per-hour drop. And that's taking into account the $1 extra paid for each additional pickup. Uber uses smoke and mirrors to deceive its drivers; don't fall for the hoopla.

In conclusion, the _only_ way that Pool would ever be worth it for drivers compared with X is if Uber rates for Pool were _higher_ than X, not lower, in order to compensate the driver for the lower speeds and routing inefficiency of Pool. I don't see that happening, ever. This is why drivers should reject Pool, and all the proof you need is right here.

As for Lyft Line, that only hits the driver with a single whammy. The pay is once again the same on Line as it is on regular Lyft, but Line earnings are lower than regular Lyft earnings because of the other whammy; lower trip speeds. It's also a no-go.


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## circle1 (Sep 17, 2016)

First, thanks for this post! Second, it's a sucker's bet to pick up pax in notoriously traffic-jammed cities (as a habit, anyways), such as L.A., S.F., or Seattle. Finally, the things these TNCs do are calculated by the social hierarchy metrics described in Aldous Huxley's novel _Brave New World_. They love it when the Deltas and compromised Gammas sign up!


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

circle1 said:


> it's a sucker's bet to pick up pax in notoriously traffic-jammed cities (as a habit, anyways), such as L.A., S.F., or Seattle.


Right, drivers know intuitively that, for example, it is not worth driving for base rates in rush hour. Reason: average trip speeds are lower and if there is no surge or boost to compensate for this then you earn less in rush hour gridlock than you do in free-moving traffic. It'd be great if drivers could also see that the _exact_ same thing is true in Pool vs X earnings: a lower speed drive equals lower earnings. If drivers could understand this then no driver would do Pool and we would collectively be telling Uber that it is not acceptable.

The way things stand now, though, not only has Uber convinced drivers to lower their speed/earnings efficiency so that Uber can raise its pax-per-ride efficiency, Uber has also persuaded drivers to accept lower rates while doing it!


> Finally, the things these TNCs do are calculated by the social hierarchy metrics described in Aldous Huxley's novel _Brave New World_. They love it when the Deltas and compromised Gammas sign up!


I should probably read more


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## circle1 (Sep 17, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I should probably read more


. . . Just briefly, because I think it's an important concept for "Gigging Economy" workers to grasp;

The novel, _Brave New World_, takes place in the World State city of London in AF 632 (AD 2540 in the Gregorian calendar), where citizens are engineered through artificial wombs and childhood indoctrination programs into predetermined classes (or castes) based on intelligence and labour.

The intelligence caste in this futuristic society is:
- Alphas [front-line managers/thinkers and leaders]
- Betas [scientists and middle-managers]
- Gammas [administration and skilled crafts]
- Deltas [line-workers and semi-skilled crafts]
- Epsilons [drones, essentially not capable of critical thought or independence]​


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## nickd8775 (Jul 12, 2015)

This is why I Stop New Requests and go the long way. My goal is to make Uber lose money on my Pool rides. I only accept multiple people on Pool if the first ride is a high surge and the surge dropped for all subsequent riders. When a new rider is added, I look at the drop off order. If they're dropped before the current passenger, I cancel. I then check the surge of the second rider's pickup address on the passenger app. If the current surge is higher than the first surge, I cancel because I don't let Uber double dip with my car.


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## Paula K (Oct 20, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!
> 
> The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.
> 
> ...


Wow, awesome post. I Uber part time and sometimes I will pick up pool riders because I work the bonuses (22 rides for $75 was this weeks Friday through Sunday bonus). Just wanting to get those rides in. Monday through Friday's bonus used to be 30 rides for $75 or. $80. Last two weekday bonuses are 40 rides for $60. Not even worth it because I'll never be able to pick up 40 rides in 4 days working p/t so now I won't need the pool riders. You sold me. No more pool rides accepted from me!


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Paula K said:


> Wow, awesome post. I Uber part time and sometimes I will pick up pool riders because I work the bonuses (22 rides for $75 was this weeks Friday through Sunday bonus). Just wanting to get those rides in. Monday through Friday's bonus used to be 30 rides for $75 or. $80. Last two weekday bonuses are 40 rides for $60. Not even worth it because I'll never be able to pick up 40 rides in 4 days working p/t so now I won't need the pool riders. You sold me. No more pool rides accepted from me!


I'm glad you found it useful. Your comments about the "_x_ rides for $_y_" Quest bonuses are interesting. In the examples above, if the driver were pursuing a typical 25 rides for $75 Quest bonus, each pickup/dropoff would be worth $3 extra - the Uber X ride would have therefore been worth $12.80 + $3 = $15.80 and the Pool would have been worth $22.21 + $9 = $31.21. This would cause increases in revenue per hour - the X ride would then be equivalent to $52.67 per hour and $35.33 per hour for the Pool ride. The Quest bonus would close the gap between X and Pool revenue for the driver, but the Pool ride still pays 33% less on an hourly basis than the X ride. Uber obviously offers Quest as a carrot to drivers to get them to accept Pool. However, in order to persuade me to do Pool, the bonus would have to mean that I would earn more by doing Pool, not that I would merely lose less! As in, would you prefer to lose $10 or only $5? Neither; you'd rather make _more _money, of course. But Uber knows that drivers generally don't do the math, and that's why they don't see through Uber's smoke and mirrors.



nickd8775 said:


> This is why I Stop New Requests and go the long way. My goal is to make Uber lose money on my Pool rides. I only accept multiple people on Pool if the first ride is a high surge and the surge dropped for all subsequent riders. When a new rider is added, I look at the drop off order. If they're dropped before the current passenger, I cancel. I then check the surge of the second rider's pickup address on the passenger app. If the current surge is higher than the first surge, I cancel because I don't let Uber double dip with my car.


Lol, yeah, it is very satisfying when you look at the fare details in the app and you see that Uber paid you a lot more than they received from the pax.

It's like a casino game when you see a high surge ping come in on Pool - do you take the offer or play on and hold out for more... If the surge is still building or I know it'll be around for a while then I'll be pretty confident that I'll very soon get an X ping at the same or higher surge than the Pool I just ignored. If the surge were breaking up though it would be tempting to take it and then stop new requests.


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## gofry (Oct 20, 2015)

You should do an analysis of why you should be doing something other than drive for Uber.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

gofry said:


> You should do an analysis of why you should be doing something other than drive for Uber.


I don't think that I should be doing something other than Uber. If I thought that then I would be doing something other than Uber. 

If you think I shouldn't be Ubering and you'd like an analysis of why you think that then you can do it yourself.


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## Woohaa (Jan 15, 2017)

Pool is cool. Stay in school. Eat on a stool.


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## freddieman (Oct 24, 2016)

Pool riders are lower class too. They will be quick to downrate u on just about anything.


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## gizmotheboss (Jul 5, 2017)

Pool you lose


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## Yam Digger (Sep 12, 2016)

freddieman said:


> Pool riders are lower class too. They will be quick to downrate u on just about anything.


Poo pax are the low-lifes of the rideshare ecosystem. That's what public transit is for.

I'm going to stop accepting Poo requests to see if there's any improvement in my earnings. When I do accept Poo requests and they don't get to my chariot in the required 2 minutes, I take perverse joy in No Show-ing them.


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## corniilius (Jan 27, 2017)

I haven't done a pool ride in months and it was only because I did df to get back home.


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## Tnasty (Mar 23, 2016)

I did a few Sunday but I purposely gave them one star because most of them barely would even say hello to me. I just wanted to get the quest bonus done as quickly as possible before the crazy football drunks came out.


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## Spyglass67 (Feb 3, 2018)

But if you keep cancelling pool does uber deactivate your account


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Spyglass67 said:


> But if you keep cancelling pool does uber deactivate your account


There's no need to cancel them if you don't accept them.


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## james725 (Sep 14, 2017)

They rate drivers bad, they smell, they are harder on your vehicle, they never tip... just off the top of my head, they are certainly more reasons....


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## Mido toyota (Nov 1, 2015)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!
> 
> The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.
> 
> ...


You should go to school, and study data analytics, you will be good at it, and hopefully, you will be hired at uber, so you make stuff better to the rest of us


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!
> 
> The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.
> 
> ...


I didnt even have to go through all that math pyrotechnics to reach the same conclusion. I know the rate is cheaper, and the mileage increase on any trip is not that much, but the average execution time is a lot longer, and that is why they I refuse them, not to mention twice as much wear and tear on my car's interior, over time.

This scenario happens a lot on pool rides:

I'll get a ping, and it's going to La Jolla, and to La Jolla from the airport ( the only place I really like to work ) is mostly free way miles.

Second ping, going the Bahia in Mission beach, and though it's technically "on the way" the only practical way to get their is surface streets, and once you are at the Bahia, the only practical way to get to La Jolla from there is surface streets, the free way from there is way to far out of the way. So, now I'm going from the airport to La Jolla on surface streets, which takes me more than twice as long to execute the ride, for which I was paid about the same. The tiny bonus they are paying for extra riders does not compensate. Now, if they paid $5 or more, maybe, but it's a buck or I think even less than that, BFD.

No more pool rides for me.


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## Uberantman (Sep 23, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea.
> 
> To demonstrate all of this, consider the following route. It starts at 6:00am on a Saturday and has one pickup and one dropoff and is a hypothetical Uber X trip. It starts in Brisbane and ends in downtown San Francisco. It is an 8.3 mile trip which takes 18 minutes. Average speed on this trip is 8.3/(18/60) = 28 mph. The speed is relatively high for a city drive because the 101 freeway can be used for most of the route.
> 
> ...


On an apples-to-apples comparison, the math adds up. However, there are other variables at play which may affect your outcome.

* Driver productivity: One good trip on x-rate does not necessarily correlate to a neatly realized hourly income, especially in an oversaturated market. There is an opportunity cost for driving around, or waiting for the next available pickup. Drivers must waste time to pick up an additional ride, or fight off other ants driving around to get the next fare signal.

Here's one example of hourly productivity: I once earned a rate of $1,800/hr. driving for hoober. The passengers drunk cancelled the ride after 20 seconds, and the system awarded me an estimated trip fare. Did I actually earn $1,800 for that hour? No, only $10. I had to keep driving for additional fares after kicking the bums to the curb.

* Promotional variables: Besides surge and boost schemes, hoober is also giving consecutive trip bonuses for trips taken during busy periods. If you ran the numbers accounting for an $8 promo for 3 consecutive trips at a 1.8x boost/surge, the optimal outcome would be significantly different from your results. Likewise, if a trip happened to take you away from a surge/boost area, you would have to account for deadmiling to recover additional revenue, or sacrifice travel in exchange for lower earnings at base or lower surge/boost rates.

Bottom line is this: nobody should be stooping so low to up poo at base rates.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Oscar Levant said:


> I didnt even have to go through all that math pyrotechnics to reach the same conclusion.


Well done! Give yourself a cookie.

The purpose of this thread is to illustrate the Pool earnings loss to drivers who have not yet realized it.



Uberantman said:


> On an apples-to-apples comparison, the math adds up. However, there are other variables at play which may affect your outcome.
> 
> * Driver productivity


Bingo. For this give yourself a box of cookies. I wondered who'd be the first to point out that X ping availability affects the above numbers. Ignoring Pool and only doing X could negatively affect driver revenue in slow markets where pings are few and far between, but in markets where there are still plenty of X pings and not much wait between them like SF there's no economic reason to do Pool.


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## Leo1983 (Jul 3, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!
> 
> The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.
> 
> ...


Ssshhh why you blowing up the secret? Lol, let the newbs do Line they will quit quicker.


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## empresstabitha (Aug 25, 2016)

circle1 said:


> . . . Just briefly, because I think it's an important concept for "Gigging Economy" workers to grasp;
> 
> The novel, _Brave New World_, takes place in the World State city of London in AF 632 (AD 2540 in the Gregorian calendar), where citizens are engineered through artificial wombs and childhood indoctrination programs into predetermined classes (or castes) based on intelligence and labour.
> 
> ...


 But everyone is a freak. So what's the problem?


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## SurginGeneral (Aug 9, 2017)

Excellent post right here. Screw Line/Pool


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## prk (Jul 9, 2015)

circle1 said:


> . . . Just briefly, because I think it's an important concept for "Gigging Economy" workers to grasp;
> 
> The novel, _Brave New World_, takes place in the World State city of London in AF 632 (AD 2540 in the Gregorian calendar), where citizens are engineered through artificial wombs and childhood indoctrination programs into predetermined classes (or castes) based on intelligence and labour.
> 
> ...


are there no revolutionaries? like the rebel alliance or "chief instigators" for example?
btw The Gift of Fish an excellent well thought out and illustrated thread. have *yourself *a box of cookies...










but remember..."cookies are a sometimes food"


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Spyglass67 said:


> But if you keep cancelling pool does uber deactivate your account


You don't cancel it. You refuse to accept it.


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## Leo1983 (Jul 3, 2017)

prk said:


> are there no revolutionaries? like the rebel alliance or "chief instigators" for example?
> btw The Gift of Fish an excellent well thought out and illustrated thread. have *yourself *a box of cookies...
> 
> View attachment 202817
> ...


Not when a corporation wants to increase profits. They want cookies to be an every meal thing.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Mido toyota said:


> You should go to school, and study data analytics, you will be good at it, and hopefully, you will be hired at uber, so you make stuff better to the rest of us


I could never turn to the dark side, lol. Besides that, I think having Uber Corporate on the resume will be the kiss of death for anyone's career for a long time to come.


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## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

You need to plug into the equation late/lost passengers. Add x amount of time per % of average late passenger. You can extrapolate and an average of lost time further dwindling earnings. I'm so glad we don't have Lyft Line or pool where I live. I would never accept em.


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## circle1 (Sep 17, 2016)

empresstabitha said:


> But everyone is a freak. So what's the problem?


No problem empresstabitha , I left that there to illustrate how I believe these Gigging Economy companies view us "contractors."



prk said:


> are there no revolutionaries? like the rebel alliance or "chief instigators" for example?
> btw The Gift of Fish an excellent well thought out and illustrated thread. have *yourself *a box of cookies...
> 
> View attachment 202817
> ...


LOL, w-e-e-l-l-l, there certainly *should* be some people questioning authority!! 

[Footnote: a bunch of Turkish citizens just got jailed for criticizing Turkey's military action in Syria (on social media)!! So, THAT'S what you get for for being a rebel! ]


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## Julescase (Mar 29, 2017)

Yam Digger said:


> Poo pax are the low-lifes of the rideshare ecosystem. That's what public transit is for.
> 
> I'm going to stop accepting Poo requests to see if there's any improvement in my earnings. When I do accept Poo requests and they don't get to my chariot in the required 2 minutes, I take perverse joy in No Show-ing them.


Pool pax are the bottom feeders of all known bottom feeders. The lowest of the low. They make me feel like I should decontaminate my car once the ride is finally over.


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## Safe_Driver_4_U (Apr 2, 2017)

Oscar Levant said:


> I didnt even have to go through all that math pyrotechnics to reach the same conclusion. I know the rate is cheaper, and the mileage increase on any trip is not that much, but the average execution time is a lot longer, and that is why they I refuse them, not to mention twice as much wear and tear on my car's interior, over time.
> 
> This scenario happens a lot on pool rides:
> 
> ...


the only time I accept poo is during 1.8x and above surge and or DF home, sssshhhh _(airplane mode) _stop ride requests never works for me.


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## Pythonphile (Sep 23, 2017)

Here in the Chicago market, the only difference is we get a nickel less for trip time. Sure, we hate it too. Lots of wide-open spaces here, and pax book pool to be cheap, knowing that there's little chance of a match. (My experience has been, about one in fifteen).

I'm sure it had good intentions. But the trips are either too short, or too long, to make a match in a timely manner. It's just bad business to continue a practice that looses money like that.


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## MercDuke (Nov 18, 2017)

I do POOL only during Surge or to complete some sort of Consecutive Ride Bonus.... I don't believe you can stop new requests and not get Riders added, it didn't work when I tried it. And, most of my bad, angry, cheap, smelly problem PAX have been Pool. But, Uber wouldn't OPT ME out, I went into the Hub and asked, they said, NO, POOL IS UBER'S BABY... LOL


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## prk (Jul 9, 2015)

circle1 said:


> Footnote: a bunch of Turkish citizens just got jailed for criticizing Turkey's military action in Syria (on social media)!! So, THAT'S what you get for for being a rebel! ]


you're talking about turkish people in turkey surely, not people in the USA? forgive my ignorance(im in Australia) and some news doesnt travel that far


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

MercDuke said:


> I do POOL only during Surge or to complete some sort of Consecutive Ride Bonus....


If Pool is surging then so is X at the same surge rate. It feels counterintuitive to ignore surge Pool pings and wait for an X ping, but give it a try next time there is a surge. If Pool is at 1.8 x or whatever, then so is X, and it'll likely pay more and be a better ride.

Pool rides are requested by people who don't want to spend money - those who take Uber for short hop trips from home to a nearby public transit station, or those who don't mind a long and slow ride in order to save a few bucks. I don't want this type of pax - I want the pax who have money and can pay for a faster private ride direct to where they're going. For example - 95% of rides to the airport are X, not Pool. These pax have the money to fly and will spend the extra $5 - $10 to ensure that they get there on time. By only accepting X, I filter out a lot of the short, crappy, low profit rides and increase my chances of getting longer airport rides and therefore higher earnings.

Another example - yesterday I took two separate groups of businessmen from one meeting to another. Both were long trips out of the city, with one at Prime Time that paid 60 bucks for 35 minutes' driving. Businesspeople who need to get from client to client or meeting to meeting aren't going to use Pool or Line. Again, you want to try to target specific customer groups - the ones with money, and by excluding Pool/Line you give yourself a greater chance of getting these rides.


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## Zap (Oct 24, 2016)

Financial is one element... Here's another element to consider. Terminate Quest & pool is dead.


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## UberXking (Oct 14, 2014)

I take one from Lyft and one from Uber. First in first out always keeps pax happy. Also trip starts immediately after request is accepted. If people are willing to pay for delivery of food why would anyone deliver their car for free before starting the trip?


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## Dhr94080 (Apr 30, 2017)

This truly saddens me! I too am a career driver. I owned a luxury van shuttle & Limousine company for 16yrs before selling it 6 yrs ago. Uber & Lyft did not and could not compete with the way I had that company operating and the caliber of vehicles used were surpassing then the ride share companies in what they offer now. In fact I do believe that the business is still operating in 3 states. However, everything in this article and video is true! And I can no longer support these businesses destroying each and everyone of our lives! Ruining our financial state, our cars we pay dearly for every month. Going from working 8 hours a day to now over 100 per 7 days just to keep up with what I need which is over 200 miles on my car per day and my health! 

This S*** need to stop. And now I feel responsible every time someone gets into my car! I look at the consumers and think WOW, you cheap Ba**ered your on a Lyft line or Uber Pool and your going from SFO to Napa and you have the nerve to get on your cell phone and brag about your luxury trip and how the following week you and your pen head friends and family are going to sail half way around the world on your boat? And here I am working my a** to the ground and only making less then minimum wage and you select an Uber pool? 

Folks, this needs to stop! I think it's time we (DRIVERS) pull ourselves together and either go do something else, or go into another line of business, OR stand against these ride share companies to put an end to slave wage and labor! Now, I am only referring to those who have made a profession and or career out of this type of work. Those that are what I noticed are called on here as 'ANTS is that the word? should hang up their keys and go find something else to do. But those that are career drivers, we need to take a stand against this kind of thing. It's slowly killing us off. Jesus, they are advertising for more drivers out their now when the market is already saturated and their is hardly any work for us at the current! Either people are leaving and they are having a difficult time replacing those drivers, or they want to over saturate the market to a point that all drivers make a penny a day. I don't no, doesn't make any sense to me but it needs to stop NOW!!!!


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## UberXking (Oct 14, 2014)

Dhr94080 said:


> This truly saddens me! I too am a career driver. I owned a luxury van shuttle & Limousine company for 16yrs before selling it 6 yrs ago. Uber & Lyft did not and could not compete with the way I had that company operating and the caliber of vehicles used were surpassing then the ride share companies in what they offer now. In fact I do believe that the business is still operating in 3 states. However, everything in this article and video is true! And I can no longer support these businesses destroying each and everyone of our lives! Ruining our financial state, our cars we pay dearly for every month. Going from working 8 hours a day to now over 100 per 7 days just to keep up with what I need which is over 200 miles on my car per day and my health!
> 
> This S*** need to stop. And now I feel responsible every time someone gets into my car! I look at the consumers and think WOW, you cheap Ba**ered your on a Lyft line or Uber Pool and your going from SFO to Napa and you have the nerve to get on your cell phone and brag about your luxury trip and how the following week you and your pen head friends and family are going to sail half way around the world on your boat? And here I am working my a** to the ground and only making less then minimum wage and you select an Uber pool?
> 
> Folks, this needs to stop! I think it's time we (DRIVERS) pull ourselves together and either go do something else, or go into another line of business, OR stand against these ride share companies to put an end to slave wage and labor! Now, I am only referring to those who have made a profession and or career out of this type of work. Those that are what I noticed are called on here as 'ANTS is that the word? should hang up their keys and go find something else to do. But those that are career drivers, we need to take a stand against this kind of thing. It's slowly killing us off. Jesus, they are advertising for more drivers out their now when the market is already saturated and their is hardly any work for us at the current! Either people are leaving and they are having a difficult time replacing those drivers, or they want to over saturate the market to a point that all drivers make a penny a day. I don't no, doesn't make any sense to me but it needs to stop NOW!!!!


Wrong Uber and Lyft crushed your business. Sounds like you escaped with some cash but can't find a gig that pays so much for essentially sitting on your ass?


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## Dhr94080 (Apr 30, 2017)

UberXking said:


> Wrong Uber and Lyft crushed your business. Sounds like you escaped with some cash but can't find a gig that pays so much for essentially sitting on your ass?


That is my point, SITTING on my a** as you put it making nothing! I am an HONEST man! One of the things in my 50yrs I've learned is, LABOR for the fruits of your trees!! In other words, if I have seeds but do not labor to plant them, how the F*** are they ever going to grow? It' the same thing with driving. I have the keys, the car, the gas, but if I do not get in and turn the key how the F*** am I suppose to make MONEY? And sitting on ones a** as you call it is actually very hard on your body and health then say? Pounding rocks with a sledge hammer for a living? And not to mention it' a mental strain game kind of job where your using your mind for this kind of job. So yes, I expect to get paid to run my car into the ground, decrease my health of my body, and strain in stress driving people around!!



UberXking said:


> Wrong Uber and Lyft crushed your business. Sounds like you escaped with some cash but can't find a gig that pays so much for essentially sitting on your ass?


And oh, last rebuttal to your comment, NO! Uber & Lyft did not crush my business. Jesus, ants I tell ya... Uber & Lyft were not even on the map in Oregon, Washingonton state, Idaho, 6 yrs ago. I sold it to go into retirement but discovered I was not ready to fully retire....



UberBeamer said:


> Meh. We all know what we're getting into. This isn't a job we're going to get rich in. It's a part time gig for extra cash. It's not a career and never will be. I'm fairly certain that the majority of people here are not "career drivers." Go ahead and call me an "ant" and see if I care.
> 
> This thread is specifically about Pool/Line. And I think that is something we could all have some impact on. If nobody is accepting them they'll be forced to remove that option. I'm afraid that's the best case scenario here.


And you would be surprised as too how many career drivers their are! For someone who claims they no the ins and out of this industry are sure contradicting themselves in I.Q here!!! My blog posting is one in the same AS YOURS about not excepting Pool & Lines!! It goes the same as striking against the entire model of how these two companies are treating drivers as a whole! And if you are only driving part time I can only Imagine that your making little to nothing which leads me to believe that your just out their for fun or to be some kind of volunteer!!! Enough said!


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## Ubering around (Oct 15, 2017)

Uber fool looks like a total loser 
Hope we don't have it in out market


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## Dhr94080 (Apr 30, 2017)

UberBeamer said:


> I know this one has certainly been posted elsewhere on this forum, but it probably deserves to be included here...


Oh good. For moment their I thought you were an HONEST person. I'm glad for the confession and um, 'GOOD FOR you however, a fool is the one who acts like a fool but thinks he or she is all that! And the stupid is those that claim they are educated. And point in fact, I AM IN YOUR MARKET M****S !!! 5yrs 12000 passengers with a 4.9 rating..... Oh?!? I think I hear your mother calling you....... Enough said...


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

The Gift of Fish said:


> If Pool is surging then so is X at the same surge rate. It feels counterintuitive to ignore surge Pool pings and wait for an X ping, but give it a try next time there is a surge. If Pool is at 1.8 x or whatever, then so is X, and it'll likely pay more and be a better ride.
> 
> Pool rides are requested by people who don't want to spend money - those who take Uber for short hop trips from home to a nearby public transit station, or those who don't mind a long and slow ride in order to save a few bucks. I don't want this type of pax - I want the pax who have money and can pay for a faster private ride direct to where they're going. For example - 95% of rides to the airport are X, not Pool. These pax have the money to fly and will spend the extra $5 - $10 to ensure that they get there on time. By only accepting X, I filter out a lot of the short, crappy, low profit rides and increase my chances of getting longer airport rides and therefore higher earnings.
> 
> Another example - yesterday I took two separate groups of businessmen from one meeting to another. Both were long trips out of the city, with one at Prime Time that paid 60 bucks for 35 minutes' driving. Businesspeople who need to get from client to client or meeting to meeting aren't going to use Pool or Line. Again, you want to try to target specific customer groups - the ones with money, and by excluding Pool/Line you give yourself a greater chance of getting these rides.


And forget about ever getting tip while driving POO*! LOL.


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## Dhr94080 (Apr 30, 2017)

You no your so right. I should be out their working 8hrs to make less then $100.00. However, me and my wife have to finish packing for our trip to our property in mexico tomorrow! So, I will be sure to tip you big time if your our driver tomorrow! And hmmmm you no, I could say the same thing about you, COMON youngster, stop blogging about what everybody already knows and go make some money because soon, you are going to need every dime of it! Take care and God Bless!!!!


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

UberBeamer said:


> This thread is specifically about Pool/Line. And I think that is something we could all have some impact on. If nobody is accepting them they'll be forced to remove that option.


Yes. Uber/Lyft designed Pool/Line, but the drivers are the ones who provide these services. If enough drivers realised that they mean lower earnings for drivers and stopped providing them then Pool/Line would cease to exist. We'd be telling Uber/Lyft that Pool/Line are not acceptable to drivers in their current form and for them to go back to the drawing board and come up with something that works for drivers too.


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## wb6vpm (Mar 27, 2016)

haha


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## KarmaKool (Dec 30, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Well done! Give yourself a cookie.
> 
> The purpose of this thread is to illustrate the Pool earnings loss to drivers who have not yet realized it.
> 
> Bingo. For this give yourself a box of cookies. I wondered who'd be the first to point out that X ping availability affects the above numbers. Ignoring Pool and only doing X could negatively affect driver revenue in slow markets where pings are few and far between, but in markets where there are still plenty of X pings and not much wait between them like SF there's no economic reason to do Pool.


In my neck of the woods, I can choose on my menu not to do pool....or eats, so I don't get any of those calls...


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## Rickshaw (Jun 30, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Yes. Uber/Lyft designed Pool/Line, but the drivers are the ones who provide these services. If enough drivers realised that they mean lower earnings for drivers and stopped providing them then Pool/Line would cease to exist. We'd be telling Uber/Lyft that Pool/Line are not acceptable to drivers in their current form and for them to go back to the drawing board and come up with something that works for drivers too.


We know U/L will not do anything that will benefit drivers. The likely scenario if drivers en masse ignore pool requests will be a surge in X requests. Poos will be forced to order X and pay more to get to their public transit hubs.


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## yankdog (Jul 19, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!
> 
> The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.
> 
> ...


Thanks GoF this is a fantastic post


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## Paula K (Oct 20, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!
> 
> The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.
> 
> ...


Tried it out this week. I did not accept pool riders with the exception of two that clocked in st a 2.9 boost. I turned down 50% + of rides because they were pool. Guess what. I made more this week TURNING DOWN 50%. This is a great post. Please post it is advice and not complaints. This is gold


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## Ride Nights & Weekends (Jan 5, 2018)

UberBeamer said:


> Meh. We all know what we're getting into. This isn't a job we're going to get rich in. It's a part time gig for extra cash. It's not a career and never will be. I'm fairly certain that the majority of people here are not "career drivers." Go ahead and call me an "ant" and see if I care.
> 
> This thread is specifically about Pool/Line. And I think that is something we could all have some impact on. If nobody is accepting them they'll be forced to remove that option. I'm afraid that's the best case scenario here.


I quit accepting them yesterday except for CTB



Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> And forget about ever getting tip while driving POO*! LOL.


This isnt 100% accurate.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Paula K said:


> Tried it out this week. I did not accept pool riders with the exception of two that clocked in st a 2.9 boost. I turned down 50% + of rides because they were pool. Guess what. I made more this week TURNING DOWN 50%. This is a great post. Please post it is advice and not complaints. This is gold


Me too; my earnings are up significantñy since I stopped doing Pool. Plus Ubering is a heck of a lot easier and less stressful without it

I posted the thread in Advice but the mods moved it to Complaints; not sure why.

I saw a really nice sight this morning - I was in downtown SF during rush hour just before 8am and I received two Pool pings from 13 minutes away and then 17 minutes away. There must have been dozens of closer drivers than me who also rejected them.

I also had a pax complain a couple of days ago that she couldn't get a Pool and had to request Uber X. She was upset that she had to pay $15 for a 2 mile ride to work. It felt really good telling her that I don't do Pool because the pay is unacceptable and, as she saw, lots of other drivers don't either.


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## Shaunizzle42 (Jul 27, 2017)

I don't even need the math to tell me pool ain't cool. I appreciate your post though, very informative. Made my head hurt, but informative none the less.


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## Yam Digger (Sep 12, 2016)

Julescase said:


> Pool pax are the bottom feeders of all known bottom feeders. The lowest of the low. *They make me feel like I should decontaminate my car once the ride is finally over*.


I thought it was only me that felt like this


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## TheNerdling (Mar 25, 2017)

I like driving a few hours on the weekends. But no longer do Lyft. Only Uber. Regardless I still dislike Uberpool. But will take them. Primarily even though it is barebone trip insurance, Lyft does not provide this at all.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

TheNerdling said:


> I like driving a few hours on the weekends. But no longer do Lyft. Only Uber. Regardless I still dislike Uberpool. But will take them. Primarily even though it is barebone trip insurance, Lyft does not provide this at all.


The pay difference between X and Pool is not dependent on whether a driver is full time or part time or whether they do 50 hours per week or 5; doing Pool means that the driver will earn less than if they did X exclusively.

Lyft provides the same insurance from the same insurer as Uber (James River), but there is a difference between them. Uber's policy has a $1,000 deductible while Lyft's is $2,500.


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## Agent037 (Aug 22, 2017)

I want you to know that I'm copying this and printing it. And pass it around at green light hubs(uber offices). This is gold. THE LINE FOR THE POOL IS CLOSED!!!! NO POOL!! Ever. I hate pool.


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## AceManShow (Sep 24, 2015)

Agent037 said:


> I want you to know that I'm copying this and printing it. And pass it around at green light hubs(uber offices). This is gold. THE LINE FOR THE POOL IS CLOSED!!!! NO POOL!! Ever. I hate pool.


If we all did this at the airport parking lot, pool would be an "unacceptable option".. Then maybe FUBER would get the message.


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## DelaK (Dec 17, 2015)

I always stop requests and with lytf I just let the ping die. NEVER pick up lyft line, utter waste of time.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

DelaK said:


> I always stop requests and with lytf I just let the ping die. NEVER pick up lyft line, utter waste of time.


Yep. Unless you like tooling around driving in circles in downtown gridlock for pennies per minute.


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## Matthew R Javier (Jan 15, 2018)

Question for everyone... 
I personally dont mind pool during rush hours and here is why
Lets say I get 3 people. I get $2 per ride so that is $6 right off the bat.
If I go 20-22 miles total with all 3 that will net me roughly $18 unless there 
is traffic which might bump it up a tad. Ride would be worth $24 minus
whatever tip I might get (yeah right) and I only use 1/2 gallon of gas.
Would you guys still look down upon accepting pool rides?
Just curious


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## DelaK (Dec 17, 2015)

Matthew R Javier said:


> Question for everyone...
> I personally dont mind pool during rush hours and here is why
> Lets say I get 3 people. I get $2 per ride so that is $6 right off the bat.
> If I go 20-22 miles total with all 3 that will net me roughly $18 unless there
> ...


Driving in sf and oakland you will never travel 22 miles with in the city. Maybe if you picked up 3 people on the way to the south bay but that rarely happens. I have spent 45min in traffic with 3 pax and have only made like $12 dollars numerous times. If it's surging maybe I'll get $20-30 which is the only time I would do it if the surge was high. Plus you increase your chance of getting in an accident in SF line/pool passengers drop the ping in the worst places. So not worth it if you drive in SF. If your chasing bonuses then you have to do them that's why I drive for both. If we all drive for both and don't pick up line/pool it will create more competition and they will give us better incentives.


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## StephenT (Oct 25, 2016)

nickd8775 said:


> This is why I Stop New Requests and go the long way. My goal is to make Uber lose money on my Pool rides. I only accept multiple people on Pool if the first ride is a high surge and the surge dropped for all subsequent riders. When a new rider is added, I look at the drop off order. If they're dropped before the current passenger, I cancel. I then check the surge of the second rider's pickup address on the passenger app. If the current surge is higher than the first surge, I cancel because I don't let Uber double dip with my car.


Interesting strategy. Though I am confused, why not ride a Surge Pool ride as long as possible? Unless you are banking on the first surging pool ride to end and then get a higher surge pool or x next. Not a viable strategy for me as I rarely get any surge ride. But you say if the stacked rider is a higher surge you would cancel? Despite the ride bumping up to the higher rate? Sorry, I am obviously confused.


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## mark_mark (Aug 26, 2017)

some long post here, really long! so I will summarize:

Pool Suck
Line Suck
only nubbies run line and pool


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

What's my Avatar? Nuf said...


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## Ride-Share-Risk-Manager (Mar 16, 2017)

I know this has been said on other threads but in addition to the financial disparity of doing pool, three other factors to keep in mind as to why you should never do Pool...
1. 75% of all Pool and Lyftline rides end in the crime ridden hood which is not a place that you want to drive or pick up new passengers. Unless you like putting your life in danger for financial crumbs.
2. When you do Pool /Lyftline you lose control over accepting or rejecting low rated new additional passengers.
3. Your driver ratings will always go down when you drive Pool / Lyftline as low class, cheapskate, hood passengers will always rate you lower.


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## mark_mark (Aug 26, 2017)

Ride-Share-Risk-Manager said:


> I know this has been said on other threads but in addition to the financial disparity of doing pool, three other factors to keep in mind as to why you should never do Pool...
> 1. 75% of all Pool and Lyftline rides end in the crime ridden hood which is not a place that you want to drive or pick up new passengers. Unless you like putting your life in danger for financial crumbs.
> 2. When you do Pool /Lyftline you lose control over accepting or rejecting low rated new additional passengers.
> 3. Your driver ratings will always go down when you drive Pool / Lyftline as low class, cheapskate, hood passengers will always rate you lower.


Lyft always sneak it in during a ride "new pax added to you shit" I check, Line... CANCEL... nothing but trouble comes from Line. Pool, if it's surging or I need a ride, use the "Stop Request"


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!
> 
> The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.
> 
> ...


You can drive continuously all day on one pool trip. On X trips you will be sitting still and getting nothing more.


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

Dhr94080 said:


> You no your so right. I should be out their working 8hrs to make less then $100.00. However, me and my wife have to finish packing for our trip to our property in mexico tomorrow! So, I will be sure to tip you big time if your our driver tomorrow! And hmmmm you no, I could say the same thing about you, COMON youngster, stop blogging about what everybody already knows and go make some money because soon, you are going to need every dime of it! Take care and God Bless!!!!


You come off as an arrogant sob



Yam Digger said:


> I thought it was only me that felt like this


He picks up the same people


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## mark_mark (Aug 26, 2017)

Rat said:


> You can drive continuously all day on one pool trip. On X trips you will be sitting still and getting nothing more.


Cool! you can have all the Pool in Seattle! our roads sucks and the map don't know shit


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## Rat (Mar 6, 2016)

mark_mark said:


> Cool! you can have all the Pool in Seattle! our roads sucks and the map don't know shit


I'm not going to drive 2,000 miles to pickup pool



Rat said:


> I'm not going to drive 2,000 miles to pickup pool. Hell, I wouldn't pick it up here if we had it.


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## KMANDERSON (Jul 19, 2015)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!
> 
> The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.
> 
> ...


You made a convincing argument not to do Uber x either.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

KMANDERSON said:


> You made a convincing argument not to do Uber x either.


How so?


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## Unleaded (Feb 16, 2018)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!
> 
> The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.
> 
> ...


During the slow times, Uber Pool and Lyft Line are "money coming in" right then while you are waiting for an X or XL, etc. A little bit of something is far better than a whole lot of nothing! Plus you increase your acceptance rate rather than riding around PAX-less and empty and wasting gas. My opinion only.


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## NoPooPool (Aug 18, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Everyone knows the axiom "only a fool does Pool" and different people have different opinions as to why it's not a good idea. But here, I'm going to show you, using numbers, why you should reject Pool (and Line) requests. Warning: mathematics will be used!
> 
> The first reason why you should reject Pool is obvious - the *rate difference*. X pays more than Pool. In SF, X pays me $0.968 per mile and Pool $0.928. X pays me $0.176 per minute and Pool $0.12. But we need to look at the sizes of the individual differences between the rates to get the full picture. Look at the small difference between the per mile rate of X ($0.968) and Pool ($0.928) - Pool pays just 4% less than X. Now look at the difference between the per minute rate of X ($0.176) and Pool ($0.12) - the difference between them is huge - Pool pays 32% less per minute than X.
> 
> ...


Great in-depth analysis of Poo Poo rides, Fish.


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## Agent037 (Aug 22, 2017)

DelaK said:


> I always stop requests and with lytf I just let the ping die. NEVER pick up lyft line, utter waste of time.


Buddy, if you stop new requests your giving the paxhole an X Ride for the price of a fool... I mean pool


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## Agent037 (Aug 22, 2017)

I'm Soo glad this thread is still relevant and going cause pool is pure concentrated disrespect to a human being in it's purest form, there's no need for a cab/ livery/ ride share/ ... Whatever you want to call it. If you do pool, you're a fool, PERIOD. ypurey giving a paxhole an X ride for the price of a pool. It's disgusting these people. Youre making peanut shells for NOTHING!. your vehicle is not a PUBLIC BUS, demand dignity and more important RESPECT, I don't accept pooP and still make money. Decline pool for what it is. Crap! Same goes for lyne, don't accept that shit either. You drive a black car, Nice, clean, EXPENSIVE, especially in some areas like NYC. don't degrade yourselves. Don't accept POOL. Only accept X.


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## Mapnik (Sep 4, 2016)

This could have been summed up in two words: opportunity cost

Moreover, the concept of opportunity cost governs most of a U/L driver's decision optimization in virtually all contexts. Most notably, that's the reason why you should chase surge in certain situations, but also why you should not chase surge in certain other situations. There's a very delicate calculus involved in making those decisions, but opportunity cost is the name of the game.

But anyway, thanks to Fish for this essay-length explanation of the obvious. I think we should call it Fishsplaining.

Next up: a 1700 word "white paper" on why drivers should always go to the gas station with the lowest price and never go to the gas station with the highest price, unless of course that low-priced station happens to be in Montana.


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## KD_LA (Aug 16, 2017)

This is why you don't do Pool (or Line): pax1 already loaded and on way (2 requested, 2 boarded). Pax2 automatically added, get there and pickup pax2 (2 requested, 2 boarded). Car is full. Before even pulling away, pax3 automatically added. That's 4 existing people plus pax3, which would be at least 5.

From what I understood, Uber's Pool is _supposed_ to be up to 2 persons per request, for a maximum of 4 total persons per vehicle regardless of vehicle class. Calling support verified that (at least on this call).

So WTH? 2+2+1 = 4? This is not the first time they've done this to me.

It seems to me they ought to be able to add single digit integers with high precision.


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## 1974toyota (Jan 5, 2018)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I'm glad you found it useful. Your comments about the "_x_ rides for $_y_" Quest bonuses are interesting. In the examples above, if the driver were pursuing a typical 25 rides for $75 Quest bonus, each pickup/dropoff would be worth $3 extra - the Uber X ride would have therefore been worth $12.80 + $3 = $15.80 and the Pool would have been worth $22.21 + $9 = $31.21. This would cause increases in revenue per hour - the X ride would then be equivalent to $52.67 per hour and $35.33 per hour for the Pool ride. The Quest bonus would close the gap between X and Pool revenue for the driver, but the Pool ride still pays 33% less on an hourly basis than the X ride. Uber obviously offers Quest as a carrot to drivers to get them to accept Pool. However, in order to persuade me to do Pool, the bonus would have to mean that I would earn more by doing Pool, not that I would merely lose less! As in, would you prefer to lose $10 or only $5? Neither; you'd rather make _more _money, of course. But Uber knows that drivers generally don't do the math, and that's why they don't see through Uber's smoke and mirrors.
> 
> Lol, yeah, it is very satisfying when you look at the fare details in the app and you see that Uber paid you a lot more than they received from the pax.
> 
> It's like a casino game when you see a high surge ping come in on Pool - do you take the offer or play on and hold out for more... If the surge is still building or I know it'll be around for a while then I'll be pretty confident that I'll very soon get an X ping at the same or higher surge than the Pool I just ignored. If the surge were breaking up though it would be tempting to take it and then stop new requests.


Ubers Smoke and Mirrors? When about 2-3 yrs ago Uber was slashing rates, & told us by cutting fares/Rates, we'd get more PAX thus making more $$$, any illusion i may have had regarding Uber being any type of Co except being a %@[email protected]%%@[email protected]%^, went out the window
Example
You make $10 on a fare, Uber cuts fare in 1/2 to $5? you have to do 2 rides to make the same $$ correct? NO, the amount you received is the same, but you'll probably drive 2x the miles? welcome to Uber math,Uber must think many drivers are dopes, but hey,as long as more people sign up to drive then people leaving Ubers OK,which means, be selective on what rids you accept,that is if the rent's not do tomorrow, JMo Happy Ubering,jmo


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## DelaK (Dec 17, 2015)

Agent037 said:


> Buddy, if you stop new requests your giving the paxhole an X Ride for the price of a fool... I mean pool


In SF uber pays us the x rate even if we do pool


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Pythonphile said:


> Here in the Chicago market, the only difference is we get a nickel less for trip time. Sure, we hate it too. Lots of wide-open spaces here, and pax book pool to be cheap, knowing that there's little chance of a match. (My experience has been, about one in fifteen).
> 
> I'm sure it had good intentions. But the trips are either too short, or too long, to make a match in a timely manner. It's just bad business to continue a practice that looses money like that.


the only thing I can figure out is that they are grooming people to be inconvienced and get cheap rides. It's Like cable tv, my dad told me once they get everyone used to paying for tv all the commecials will be right back. Here we are and they are right back. Ubers like a life raft with a hole in it. They are going to need those driverless cars to do those pool rides because im not driving that $hit....


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## YouBeer (May 10, 2017)

nickd8775 said:


> This is why I Stop New Requests and go the long way. My goal is to make Uber lose money on my Pool rides. I only accept multiple people on Pool if the first ride is a high surge and the surge dropped for all subsequent riders. When a new rider is added, I look at the drop off order. If they're dropped before the current passenger, I cancel. I then check the surge of the second rider's pickup address on the passenger app. If the current surge is higher than the first surge, I cancel because I don't let Uber double dip with my car.


In the very rare instances that I do pool I decided that I would *not* turn off new requests, my intention is to maximize the pool ride and delay the arrival of the pax for as long as possible. The pax should encounter *every* problem that can occur during a pick up right along with you, the pax was betting that you would turn off new pool requests and when you do so you are playing right in to their stingy plans.
So if youre going to do pool either do it all the way or dont do it at all. There is no try.


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## Tnasty (Mar 23, 2016)

Since I try to stay in a specific region I end up getting the same clowns all the time doing Lyft line a half a mile down the road. 
They know they wont be paired with anybody and once they do line or pool they never use anything else. My worst customers were pool or Lyft line.


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## Julescase (Mar 29, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Me too; my earnings are up significantñy since I stopped doing Pool. Plus Ubering is a heck of a lot easier and less stressful without it
> 
> I posted the thread in Advice but the mods moved it to Complaints; not sure why.
> 
> ...


Omg you have no idea how happy this makes me - the fact that someone was forced to order x because no one would pick her up for a pool ride is encouraging. You guys up in San Fran are making it happen!

I really wish ALL drivers would refuse, but I know there will always be someone who will take those rides. And I know some drivers don't have a choice - but truly, the only way people will be forced into X will be if NO ONE accepts pool pings. If we can't unionize, this is one small thing we have some power over.

People are lazy and spoiled enough that they WILL order x, despise being cheap shitheels. They won't take a bus like they SHOULD (if they truly can't afford X) , they'll just pay for a cheap ride (x) vs. a ridiculously, insultingly cheap ride (pool).


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Mapnik said:


> This could have been summed up in two words: opportunity cost


Meh, coulda shoulda woulda. Derivative post.

The fact that UberPool still exists is the evidence of why the reality of it is not obvious to drivers. I thought _this _would have been obvious. Even to you, but evidently not.


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## Wombat7 (Dec 23, 2016)

Pool/Line is generally a bad deal. 

Generally.

I think the OP has presented the facts in a manner that will support his belief that Pool/Line are super bad. I believe that he didn't take into consideration dead time. How do you make dead time profitable?

Dead time is a waste of time and we all have days where there's plenty of dead time. Strategic use of Pool/Line will make you money unless, of course, money's not your thing and you'll refuse it, you know, just on principle. Many of you say you've made more money ignoring Pool/Line and I have no doubts that for some of you that may be the case. But, depending on your market, you could be leaving money on the table by 100% refusing Pool/Line.

Notice I said strategic use of Pool/Line. I'm not at all saying accept Pool/Line all the time (although, yes, I do accept Line almost all the time as rates are the same as X in my market). But if done strategically, it will make you money. And remember, it's not going away no matter how much you boycott it.

Your location and time-of-day are the most important factors to consider before accepting a Pool/Line ride, and that's every day, whether you're busy or not but especially on slow days with plenty of dead time. 

For example, you could catch a wonderful ride that takes you out to Outer Mongolia. Are you going to cheerfully dead mile it in or if you're in an area where most likely any ride will go in your direction, are you going to turn down money? Even if you don't end up in Outer Mongolia; say you end up in a semi-remote area where it takes a 5-6 mile ride to go anywhere; are you going to leave that money on the table?

Location and time of day is extremely important in determining whether you should or shouldn't. I turn down a helluva lot more Pool requests than Line. But often, if done at the right place and times, Pool/Line rides can be among your best rides of your day.

Many of you mention the type of people Pool riders tend to be. I work early mornings with occasional forays into weekend evenings. I would again say that the location and time of day are major factors in determining whether or not you will be toting lower life forms. Although it's some distance from my home I pretty much work upper middle to higher-end neighborhoods and I rarely get lowlifes, not even when I end up in what one would consider a less then desirable neighborhood. I truly believe that many drivers expect "high quality" pax all the time and that their own internal prejudices (and we all have them) predetermine what type of person will be getting into our cars. People who pretty much consistently see Pool/Line riders as lowlifes have a problem and I'm sure they'll probably see lots of X riders as scum too.

I've been driving full time for about 27 months and I'm sneaking up on over 10,000 rides. Until about last September, when the busy season in my market ended and I found myself trying to get my share of a vastly reduced pie and an astounding number of ants to compete with, I 100% refused Pool/Line, firm in my belief that I was doing the right thing.

Um, no. I was working alot more hours to make what I like/need to make. After reading someone else's arguments for doing some Pool/Line in the San Diego forums I started doing some experimenting with doing Pool/Line after giving some thought as to how and where it could work for me. The result is that it has heightened my situational awareness and made me the money I want to make in the hours that I want to make it.


Don't be a sheep. Clearly, what I do won't work for everyone or work in every market. But our markets are constantly changing, indeed, headless cars are about to enter the playing field in several markets. My point is make sure you know how to use every tool in your toolbox and using the right tool at the right time will make you money.


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## Unleaded (Feb 16, 2018)

Wombat7 said:


> Pool/Line is generally a bad deal.
> 
> Generally.
> 
> ...


So, how does a driver turn off Uber Pool? On the Trip Types screen UberX/Uber Pool are listed in the same availability category, followed by a check mark.


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## Wombat7 (Dec 23, 2016)

Unleaded said:


> So, how does a driver turn off Uber Pool? On the Trip Types screen UberX/Uber Pool are listed in the same availability category, followed by a check mark.


Simply decline. Hit "no thanks." Rumor has it that if you hit "no thanks" you won't get put into the doghouse but I have found that to be untrue in my market.

After you do it often enough it will inspire Uber to put you in the doghouse without you letting you know about it, their latest form of trickery and chicanery.  So you'll need to check the riders app after you do it the 3rd time to see if you're still online because Uber will continue to show that you're online in the drivers app.. Take yourself offline for a second and then go back on. This should restore you to active.

There is a catch 22: if you've done it alot (declined or let the ping ring through) within minutes of each other, they'll put you in the doghouse for a much longer period of time, over a half hour easily. Happens to me on early Sunday morning when I'm in the middle of a large student population with lots of Pool requests and I'm by a major hotel waiting for the longish X ride to the airport.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

DelaK said:


> In SF uber pays us the x rate even if we do pool






Wombat7 said:


> Simply decline. Hit "no thanks." Rumor has it that if you hit "no thanks" you won't get put into the doghouse but I have found that to be untrue in my market.
> 
> After you do it often enough it will inspire Uber to put you in the doghouse without you letting you know about it, their latest form of trickery and chicanery. So you'll need to check the riders app after you do it the 3rd time to see if you're still online because Uber will continue to show that you're online in the drivers app.. Take yourself offline for a second and then go back on. This should restore you to active.
> 
> There is a catch 22: if you've done it alot (declined or let the ping ring through) within minutes of each other, they'll put you in the doghouse for a much longer period of time, over a half hour easily. Happens to me on early Sunday morning when I'm in the middle of a large student population with lots of Pool requests and I'm by a major hotel waiting for the longish X ride to the airport.


I'll check this out.

They do pull the "In-a-Boost-zone-so-no-rides-for-you" trick on me quite regularly. I.e. early morning in zones that really shouldn't need to be "boosted" because there is not a lot of pax demand, I can be waiting and waiting in, say, a 1.6x Boost zone and get nothing, Then as soon as my car crosses the Boost border into a base rate, non-Boosted zone, the base rate pings start coming in. It would obviously make business sense for Uber to prioritise non-Boosted drivers over Boosted drivers in the same area; in effect just have the Boosted waiting around doing nothing as reserves in case there's a sudden surge in demand, in which case they'll get pinged.



Wombat7 said:


> I think the OP has presented the facts in a manner that will support his belief that Pool/Line are super bad. I believe that he didn't take into consideration dead time. How do you make dead time profitable?


Yes, I omitted the factor of X ping frequency from the original post. As I later added,


The Gift of Fish said:


> Bingo. For this give yourself a box of cookies. I wondered who'd be the first to point out that X ping availability affects the above numbers. Ignoring Pool and only doing X could negatively affect driver revenue in slow markets where pings are few and far between, but in markets where there are still plenty of X pings and not much wait between them like SF there's no economic reason to do Pool.


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## Julescase (Mar 29, 2017)

Also - people who order Pool for trips under 3-4 miles should be stabbed with a rusty butter knife. Pool gives the sense that the trip will be a long one. For those cheap pool pax shitheels who order pool for a short little trip and know they probably won't be stuck having to pick up another pax, you need to eat a big bag of herpecetic Ds!


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## APettyJ (Sep 29, 2017)

I often hear about "driver oversaturation", and yet I am to believe there are enough X rides tigo around? I drive in Philly.


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## Wombat7 (Dec 23, 2016)

Now here's a form of Pool I will never ever touch. This is the prequel to driverless cars.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/technology/article201172289.html?google_editors_picks=true


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## luckytown (Feb 11, 2016)

Pool is only getting more and more popular with the pax and Uber is promoting the hell out of it....Turnover is part of the Uber business model and they rely on it to cover pool. Sadly there are drivers that have no choice but to accept these rides. When and if uber has problems covering pool request they will offer drivers more incentive.....it will be crumbs mind you....the gap between what they are making off the pax and what they offer the driver is huge and they have alot of lee way here. For the drivers that wont accept pool you have to fight for the privliaged who will not share a car with someone and still are looking for a cheap rate...the x market is shrinking and the pool market is expanding.....good luck out there!!!!!!!


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## Agent037 (Aug 22, 2017)

DelaK said:


> In SF uber pays us the x rate even if we do pool


That would be The only way I'd do pool, a lot of drivers are just using fuber for insurance purposes, and do 1 or 2 rides per day, now that I got myself a vehicle of my own Will need insurance of my ownsoon I guess I'll have to join the bunch


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## Unleaded (Feb 16, 2018)

Wombat7 said:


> Simply decline. Hit "no thanks." Rumor has it that if you hit "no thanks" you won't get put into the doghouse but I have found that to be untrue in my market.
> 
> After you do it often enough it will inspire Uber to put you in the doghouse without you letting you know about it, their latest form of trickery and chicanery. So you'll need to check the riders app after you do it the 3rd time to see if you're still online because Uber will continue to show that you're online in the drivers app.. Take yourself offline for a second and then go back on. This should restore you to active.
> 
> There is a catch 22: if you've done it alot (declined or let the ping ring through) within minutes of each other, they'll put you in the doghouse for a much longer period of time, over a half hour easily. Happens to me on early Sunday morning when I'm in the middle of a large student population with lots of Pool requests and I'm by a major hotel waiting for the longish X ride to the airport.


On one if my first runs, I was in an area doing Uber Eats and I received 10 pings in a row. I hit "no thanks" because I knew that if I had accepted them, someone along the line was going to receive cold food. By hitting "No Thanks" I received a negative acceptance rating and a "nastygram" which was not appropriate in my eyes. I was just trying to do the right thing.



Unleaded said:


> On one if my first runs, I was in an area doing Uber Eats and I received 10 pings in a row. I hit "no thanks" because I knew that if I had accepted them, someone along the line was going to receive cold food. By hitting "No Thanks" I received a negative acceptance rating and a "nastygram" which was not appropriate in my eyes. I was just trying to do the right thing.


I guess that I should have hit "Stop new requests" but I didn't know about that. I didn't know too much in the beginning. I had to find out about the do's and fonts the hard way.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

APettyJ said:


> I often hear about "driver oversaturation", and yet I am to believe there are enough X rides tigo around?


I don't know; are you?



luckytown said:


> the x market is shrinking and the pool market is expanding.


How do you know this? What is the current percentage split of X vs Pool and what was it 12 months ago, for example? How many rides are given on X and how many on Pool per month? Without the actual numbers then, by definition, claiming that X ride volume is shrinking is only a guess.


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## Unleaded (Feb 16, 2018)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I don't know; are you?
> 
> How do you know this? What is the current percentage split of X vs Pool and what was it 12 months ago, for example? How many rides are given on X and how many on Pool per month? Without the actual numbers then, by definition, claiming that X ride volume is shrinking is only a guess.


In my opinion, just from talking to other drivers, and personal "on the road" experience that the X's provide an income staple for drivers, but tiday's adults, working folks and seniors who are watching their dollars and their current wealth picture are using pool as a saver, and fully knowing that their destination arrival may be slightly delayed. It's Sll about money and riders looking for the biggest bang for their buck. College students 9n campus in my area love Pool and Eats and take full advzntage of both. There are enough rides out there to sustain us for times to come. I would say, "not to worry".


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## UberXking (Oct 14, 2014)

Unleaded said:


> During the slow times, Uber Pool and Lyft Line are "money coming in" right then while you are waiting for an X or XL, etc. A little bit of something is far better than a whole lot of nothing! Plus you increase your acceptance rate rather than riding around PAX-less and empty and wasting gas. My opinion only.


That's the lamest comment I've read here in 3 years.


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## fusionuber (Nov 27, 2017)

UberXking said:


> Wrong Uber and Lyft crushed your business. Sounds like you escaped with some cash but can't find a gig that pays so much for essentially sitting on your ass?


some people are so nasty smh. your probably the nicest in person too


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## melusine3 (Jun 20, 2016)

KMANDERSON said:


> You made a convincing argument not to do Uber x either.


UberX in my city is far less than UberStool in SF. This is depressing - I'm doing LessThanUberPool.


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

melusine3 said:


> UberX in my city is far less than UberStool in SF. This is depressing - I'm doing LessThanUberPool.


Ouch!

I can't think of anything I can say to make you feel better after that.


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