# UBER AND LYFT FACE AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT IN CALIFORNIA — AND THEY’RE LOSING



## KevinH (Jul 13, 2014)

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/2/20841070/uber-lyft-ab5-california-bill-drivers-labor
On August 29th, Uber and Lyft released a dramatic, unexpected proposal as a last ditch effort to derail legislation in California that could potentially explode the ride-hailing industry. In their proposal, the companies promised to pay their drivers $21-an-hour (but only while on a trip), provide them with sick leave, and "empower" them to "have a collective voice" - a nod toward drivers forming a union.

The proposal "will both protect drivers' ability to work on their own terms, while maintaining the reliable rideshare experience you've come to depend on," the petition states. It will most likely fail.

State senators in California are poised to vote on Assembly Bill 5, which would make it more difficult for so-called gig economy companies to classify workers as independent contractors. If passed, the bill could force Uber and Lyft to designate drivers as employees, a move both companies admit could throw them in a tailspin into the unknown.

"Our business would be adversely affected if Drivers were classified as employees instead of independent contractors," Uber wrote in its S-1 filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission earlier this year.

THE STATE THAT OVERSAW THE BIRTH TO UBER AND LYFT AND THE GIG ECONOMY THEY HELPED CREATE IS NOW SCRAMBLING TO CORRECT SOME OF ITS WORST EFFECTS

It's a stunning turn of events: The state that oversaw the birth to Uber and Lyft and the gig economy they helped create is now scrambling to correct some of its worst effects. Drivers have long complained about poor pay, lack of protections, and an inability to band together to effect change. There have been stories about drivers sleeping in their cars because they can't afford to live in the cities where they work, struggling to make ends meet, and feeling totally at the mercy of a faceless algorithm that dictates their every move. AB5 is meant to address these very real concerns.

It will also fundamentally change Uber and Lyft. Uber phrases it this way: the bill would "drastically change the rideshare experience as you've come to know it, and would limit Uber's ability to connect you with the dependable rides you've come to expect."

If this sounds like a dire prediction, it's meant as such. Uber and Lyft are facing an existential threat in AB5. And they're losing.

The companies have sent their high-priced lobbying teams to Sacramento to persuade Governor Gavin Newsom and lawmakers that AB5 will ruin their ability to do business in the state. But they have now "all but accepted that AB 5 will pass and the governor will sign it," according to the _Los Angeles Times_.

This has been brewing for over a year now. In May 2018, the California Supreme Court decided in favor of workers for a document delivery company called Dynamex Operations West; those workers were seeking employment status. The drivers for the delivery service first brought their case over a decade ago, arguing that they were required to wear the company's uniform and display its logo while providing their own vehicles and shouldering all of the costs associated with the deliveries. AB5 is meant to codify the _Dynamex_ decision into law. And that's what's got Uber and Lyft feeling the pinch.

"CLEARLY THEY KNOW THEY'RE IN A TOUGH SPOT"

"Clearly they know they're in a tough spot," Assemblywoman Lorena Gonzalez (D-San Diego), the co-author of AB5, told _The Verge_. "They're violating _Dynamex_as it is. They know AB5 is coming."

Gonzalez said that she wants to stop the misclassification of workers. Her bill would require companies to use a legal standard called "the ABC test" when determining employment status:



> A): The worker is "free from the control and direction" of the company that hired them while they perform their work.
> (B): The worker is performing work that falls "outside the hiring entity's usual course or type of business."
> (C): The worker has their own independent business or trade beyond the job for which they were hired.


Gonzalez warned against any last minute attempts by Uber and Lyft to present their own solutions to the problems. "These companies have been in existence for years now. And they've known that their drivers have these complaints and these problems, and they've done nothing to address it. And they've said many times that they were going to address it, and they haven't."

California businesses are in full panic over the bill. The state's Chamber of Commerce and other business groups have been lobbying for changes, and have been urging lawmakers to consider a long list of exemptions.

As such, AB5 exempts a lengthy list of professions, primarily ones in which the practitioners set their own rates. These include construction contractors, business-to-business services, freelance writers, fine artists, grant writers, graphic designers and podiatrists. The carve-outs also include doctors, dentists, lawyers, architects, accountants, engineers, insurance agents, investment advisers, direct sellers, real estate agents, hairstylists, barbers, estheticians and electrologists.

But most of the attention has been on Uber and Lyft. After all, it's hard to ignore a tale of startups that raked in billions by exploiting weak labor protections, only to be brought down by a galvanized labor movement. The bill is being pushed by major unions, including SEIU, the Teamsters, the United Food and Commercial Workers, and the California Labor Federation, which represents 2.1 million workers.

AB5 has also become a bit of a bellwether for the 2020 presidential race. Several top Democratic candidates, including Senators Elizabeth Warren (D-MA), Kamala Harris (D-CA), and Bernie Sanders (I-VT), as well as South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg, have endorsed the bill. Buttigieg spoke at a rally in support of AB5 last week.

UBER AND LYFT CAN SEE THE WRITING ON THE WALL - AND THE COMPANIES ARE ALREADY PLOTTING THEIR NEXT MOVE

The bill passed the Senate Appropriations Committee last week. Now it will head to the full Senate floor, probably in September. Newsom, who has strong alliances with both labor and the tech sector and technology companies, is pushing the two sides to negotiate a deal.

Uber and Lyft can see the writing on the wall - and the companies are already plotting their next move. According to the _LA Times_, the ride-hailing companies say they will spend $60 million to fund a ballot measure in 2020 to create a new classification for drivers. Food delivery service DoorDash, another gig economy company that classifies its couriers as freelancers, says it will chip in $30 million. Uber and Lyft also support a separate bill to create a new designation for gig economy workers, but view the ballot initiative is portrayed as a "last resort," according to the _Times_.

This desperate maneuver contrasts with the blasé attitude of Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi, who when asked about AB5 in an earnings call earlier this month. "If AB5 passes, it'll simply be a qualification of existing law. It doesn't immediately transform drivers into employees," he said.

Investors are taking the same stance. "The immediate impact to Uber/Lyft will be more limited than currently feared," Wedbush analyst Daniel Ives said in a note to investors. He argued the bill is so transformational, that its "implementation and enforcement will be challenging, likely delaying an immediate impact."

Part of the problem has to do with President Donald Trump and his appointees to the National Labor Relations Board. Earlier this year, a federal labor lawyer in the Trump administration issued an opinion that ride-hail drivers are independent contractors, not employees.

The Department of Labor has also stated that gig workers like Uber drivers are contractors ineligible for minimum wages and overtime pay. A federal judge ruled basically the same way last year in what is said to be the first classification of Uber drivers under federal law. That means that even if AB5 passes into law, unions seeking to organize drivers will run into strong headwinds. Uber and Lyft could force organizing drivers to face a vote by the Trump-controlled National Labor Relations Board, which could undermine those efforts.

This has been brewing for years. Hundreds of Uber drivers went on strike ahead of the company's much-anticipated IPO in May. Drivers said they want better working conditions and more transparency from Uber over wages and access to the platform. Uber's stock price has fallen steadily since the IPO amid concerns over the company's lack of profitability; Uber lost a staggering $5.2 billion in the second quarter of 2019, most of which attributable to one-time stock payouts.

CALIFORNIA'S PASSAGE OF AB5 COULD HAVE A DOMINO EFFECT

There are some labor groups that represent drivers, but all of them lack the ability to collectively bargain with the companies over essential issues like pay scales, hours, and workers compensation. That could seriously hamper the most broadly hoped-for effects of the law: an empowered driver class forcing Uber and Lyft to come to the table to hammer out a collective bargaining agreement.

Still, California's passage of AB5 could have a domino effect that inspires other states to codify their own ABC misclassification tests, said Shannon Liss-Riordan, an attorney who represented thousands of drivers in a class action suit against Uber. But it will run into strong resistance from Uber and Lyft, which have deep pockets to spend on lobbying and public relations campaigns.

"They will continue to pour money into their misinformation campaign to convince voters that their refusal to provide employment protections helps the workers," said Liss-Riordan, who is now running for US Senate in Massachusetts. "What it does is allow them to shift all expenses and burdens of employment from themselves to the workers whose labor has made these companies what they are today."

Uber and Lyft have long argued that drivers don't want to be classified as employees, preferring the flexibility to set their own schedules and drive for multiple apps that comes with gig work. "Our drivers consistently tell us that the reason why they value Uber is they value their freedom," Khosrowshahi said on the earnings call. "They're their own boss. They run their own business."

"THEY WILL CONTINUE TO POUR MONEY INTO THEIR MISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN TO CONVINCE VOTERS"

But Liss-Riordan argued that's untrue. Uber and Lyft are trying to deceive their own workers into thinking that they would have to give up their flexibility if they win employment protections, she said. "Having represented thousands of gig workers over the last six-plus years, I know that is a lie."

Michael Reich, professor of economics and co-chair of the Center on Wage and Employment Dynamics at the University of California at Berkeley, agrees. He notes that if drivers in California were reclassified as employees, their employers could provide them improved pay and benefits and full reimbursement for driving expenses, allow drivers to organize, while maintaining driver flexibility over their work hours. "Nothing in federal or state law precludes allowing employees to choose different or similar blocks of work hours each week," Reich told _The Verge_.

Uber and Lyft describe driving as a "side gig" - and for many drivers, it certainly starts that way. It did for Edan Alva, who started driving for Lyft eight years ago to help make ends meet. But after he lost his main job, driving became his primary source of income. And that was when he became aware of the inequities in the system.

"I found myself having a hard time existing in the Bay Area," Alva told _The Verge_. "It became an existential struggle to earn enough money to finish the week, finish the month."

He said without taking costs into account, he earns roughly $15-$20 an hour driving for Lyft, but after paying for gas, insurance, and vehicle maintenance, that fell to as little as $4-an-hour. Alva was one of hundreds of drivers who have traveled to Sacramento in recent months to lobby in favor of AB5. He believes that Uber and Lyft can't be trusted to do right by drivers, despite their pleas to the contrary.

"If a company cannot sustain profits and pay their labor fairly," he said, "then this company shouldn't exist."


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

_FEAR!!! Everyone be afraid!!!! Runnn!!!!

Join @markmark on the Aurora bridge at sunset Friday!!_


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## nonononodrivethru (Mar 25, 2019)

Simple solution: increase driver's base fare, increase passenger's fares, don't take more than 75%, don't try to control drivers, make trip information mandatory with every ride request.

In other words, go back to the beginning of what made you a "rideshare" company to begin with.

You are not taxi companies, stop acting like taxi companies.


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## Red (Nov 8, 2014)

nonononodrivethru said:


> Simple solution: increase driver's base fare, increase passenger's fares, don't take more than 75%, don't try to control drivers, make trip information mandatory with every ride request.
> 
> In other words, go back to the beginning of what made you a "rideshare" company to begin with.
> 
> You are not taxi companies, stop acting like taxi companies.


Exactly. And STOP onboarding. Ant farm is waaaay oversaturated.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

nonononodrivethru said:


> Simple solution: increase driver's base fare, increase passenger's fares, don't take more than 75%, don't try to control drivers, make trip information mandatory with every ride request.
> 
> In other words, go back to the beginning of what made you a "rideshare" company to begin with.
> 
> You are not taxi companies, stop acting like taxi companies.


Higher base fare isn't enough. Our pay rates should be a minimum of 75% of local taxi rates and there should also be a guarantee that drivers will never be paid less than 75% of what the riders pay, which will protect drivers from being cheated out of surge pay and booking fee revenues.

I agree about making it mandatory that drivers be provided with both pickup and destination addresses BEFORE we accept offers.

I'll also add that drivers should be given at least 30 seconds to decide whether or not they want to accept an request and drivers should never be penalized in any way whatsoever for declining requests.

Uber controlled drivers even MORE in the early days than they do now.

Destinations have been hidden from drivers since day one.

In the early days, drivers could be terminated for "low" acceptance rates.


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## IthurstwhenIP (Jan 12, 2018)

Bye bye uber


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## ducktaleswoohoo (Aug 28, 2019)

blow their comment section up here is preaching to the choir & entertainment there is the public & investors


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

I’d still rather be an independent contractor

The one change I’d ask for is some limit on the number of drivers on the street


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## UberProphet? (Dec 24, 2014)

oldfart said:


> The one change I'd ask for is some limit on the number of drivers on the street


Maybe some kind of medallion giving people the right to participate in the industry? That is Genius! Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

I think if I was paid the irs rates ($0.58/mile) from ping to drop off plus $ 0.40 per minute from ping to drop off and if there was enough business to keep me busy. I'd be happy



UberProphet? said:


> Maybe some kind of medallion giving people the right to participate in the industry? That is Genius! Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?


Exactly,
the more things change the more they stay the same


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## UberProphet? (Dec 24, 2014)

oldfart said:


> Exactly,
> the more things change the more they stay the same


Dear Regulators,

Now that I have successfully broken into the lush paddock, please repair the fence and gate and make sure it is firmly locked this time. I wouldn't want someone to do to me, what I did to the original horses in this paddock. And since the paddock is now all trampled and threadbare, if you could do something to cull the herd, restore the greenery and make it so I can get fat and lazy like my predecessors, I would be eternally grateful.

Sincerely sorry about the things I said about you in the past,

Oldfart

Ps Have you ever considered mandatory feed servings and character testing the occupants of this paddock?


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

medallions aren't necessary, just having a cap on vehicles would get the job done.

Orlando's cap is fluid depending on the number of residents in Orlando plus the number of passengers arriving at the airport per year.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

UberProphet? said:


> Dear Regulators,
> 
> Now that I have successfully broken into the lush paddock, please repair the fence and gate and make sure it is firmly locked this time. I wouldn't want someone to do to me, what I did to the original horses in this paddock. And since the paddock is now all trampled and threadbare, if you could do something to cull the herd, restore the greenery and make it so I can get fat and lazy like my predecessors, I would be eternally grateful.
> 
> ...


I think that's about right 
limit the number of drivers as long as I'm one of the chosen few and one way to limit the numbers world be to impose higher standards



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> medallions aren't necessary, just having a cap on vehicles would get the job done.
> 
> Orlando's cap is fluid depending on the number of residents in Orlando plus the number of passengers arriving at the airport per year.


Are you saying that there is a cap in Orlando now?


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

The day of reckoning is coming for Uber and Lyft. They are now going to be forced to comply with the laws that most other businesses must comply with. They should have been doing this all along. 

The days of bullying their way through are just about over. Uber and Lyft don't have the "friends" that they once did.

And as an added bonus, both stocks hit a new low today.


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## GoldenGoji (Apr 30, 2018)

Drivers: We just want you to increase our per mile rates! We don't need to become employees!

Uber: We shall spend $60,000,000 or more bribing politicians in order to not classify you as employees! We shall use all of our money if we have to!

Drivers: You don't need to lose so much money if only you'd increase our per mile rates!

Uber: Understood! We shall keep spending by the millions every few months instead of giving you a 50 cent or a dollar increase in your per mile rates!

Drivers: ?‍♂?‍♀


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

If any of us told Uberlyft:

"My business is adversely affected by the combined effect of all the pay cuts. I need a special carve-out from the high Uberlyft commission in order to make my ridesharing economically viable", then the answer would at best be NO, at worst we'd just be ignored. So it's very pleasing that Uberlyft is getting the same response now from CA legislators


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

> Gonzalez warned against any last minute attempts by Uber and Lyft to present their own solutions to the problems. "These companies have been in existence for years now. And they've known that their drivers have these complaints and these problems, and they've done nothing to address it. And they've said many times that they were going to address it, and they haven't."


man, she's the best

too bad all representatives didn't have the heart she does


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## charmer37 (Nov 18, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Higher base fare isn't enough. Our pay rates should be a minimum of 75% of local taxi rates and there should also be a guarantee that drivers will never be paid less than 75% of what the riders pay, which will protect drivers from being cheated out of surge pay and booking fee revenues.
> 
> I agree about making it mandatory that drivers be provided with both pickup and destination addresses BEFORE we accept offers.
> 
> ...


These companies also need to have a better screening system for account holders, Drivers don't have a clue who they're picking up, They need to do a complete over haul on the rating system and have better protections in place for drivers safety.


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## percy_ardmore (Jun 4, 2019)

oldfart said:


> I'd still rather be an independent contractor
> 
> The one change I'd ask for is some limit on the number of drivers on the street


Discrimination, can't be enforced or defined.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

IthurstwhenIP said:


> Bye bye uber


Humming " we said we would all go down together"
" Yes we would all go down together"- Billy Joel
Goodnight Saigon.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

tohunt4me said:


> Humming " we said we would all go down together"
> " Yes we would all go down together"- Billy Joel
> Goodnight Saigon.


If/when Uberlyft finally goes bust, more efficient rideshare 2.0 companies will take its place. Just like Myspace was replaced by Facebook; somebody else will come along and do it better.

Autonomous cars won't be happening any time soon, so there will be rideshare jobs available for a long time to come. Whether or not they will be worth doing post-Uberlyft is another matter.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

As of 1 minute ago, Lyft down $3.55, Uber down $1.87.


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## New Uber (Mar 21, 2017)

Is it possible for both companies to merge into one company? I get asked by passengers all the time if I do Uber and Lyft ? For years I did Uber only. But now I do Lyft as well and when I tell pax I do both they seem dissappointed. That's right, you get the same driver regardless of which app you use.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

percy_ardmore said:


> Discrimination, can't be enforced or defined.


What discrimination, just a limited number of contractors. Or a limited number of contractors able to be logged on at the same time


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> As of 1 minute ago, Lyft down $3.55, Uber down $1.87.


Just closed at their lowest price ever.

Remember, exec team, lower share price = more money in your pocket!


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

New Uber said:


> Is it possible for both companies to merge into one company? I get asked by passengers all the time if I do Uber and Lyft ? For years I did Uber only. But now I do Lyft as well and when I tell pax I do both they seem dissappointed. That's right, you get the same driver regardless of which app you use.


Of course! It's called "Merger and aquisition". One buys the other (that's aquisition). The other "merges" which means they get their balls snipped off like a eunich steer.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

oldfart said:


> I'd still rather be an independent contractor


Maybe someday you will be.


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

New Uber said:


> Is it possible for both companies to merge into one company? I get asked by passengers all the time if I do Uber and Lyft ? For years I did Uber only. But now I do Lyft as well and when I tell pax I do both they seem dissappointed. That's right, you get the same driver regardless of which app you use.


no way, it would get blocked on anti-trust concerns


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

oldfart said:


> I'd still rather be an independent contractor
> 
> The one change I'd ask for is some limit on the number of drivers on the street


-------------------------------
I would like to see a limit on registering new drivers AND a cap of 20% TOTAL of money deducted from my earnings. Let U/L learn to operate inside a budget, like the rest of us.


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

KK2929 said:


> -------------------------------
> I would like to see a limit on registering new drivers AND a cap of 20% TOTAL of money deducted from my earnings. Let U/L learn to operate inside a budget, like the rest of us.


And stop spending research money on things (driverless cars, restaurant food business all in one place) You're not going to be the first one Uber!!! Or the best!!!!!!!!!

You already gouge the riders.....and offer way to many specials for them....Now it's time for the riders to pay. Pay me 75% of what you charge the rider and you can charge more. Minimum time and mileage rates to be set by region so uber can't isolate/target drivers by low balling trips.


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## luckytown (Feb 11, 2016)

New Uber said:


> Is it possible for both companies to merge into one company? I get asked by passengers all the time if I do Uber and Lyft ? For years I did Uber only. But now I do Lyft as well and when I tell pax I do both they seem dissappointed. That's right, you get the same driver regardless of which app you use.


pax dont care about drivers.....they want the cheepest ride


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## Who is John Galt? (Sep 28, 2016)

New Uber said:


> Is it possible for both companies to merge into one company? I get asked by passengers all the time if I do Uber and Lyft ?
> 
> 
> uberdriverfornow said:
> ...


Yeah, neither of them can be trusted.

.


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

this will hurt drivers, cant write off miles, no flexible schedules, this bill doesnt even provide health insurance, this is awful.......


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

dnlbaboof said:


> this will hurt drivers, cant write off miles, no flexible schedules, this bill doesnt even provide health insurance, this is awful.......


can still write off miles no problem

you are misinformed


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

what benefit is this? we get a minimum wage where youre forced to pick up 4.3 pool riders?????? no there is no way to write off miles if you are an employee. any driver who is on obamacare etc will see there income shoot up thanks to this and pay higher premiums. All they have to do is give a minimum 1.00 per mile, rase the rates, there is no need to be an employee


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

dnlbaboof said:


> what benefit is this? we get a minimum wage where youre forced to pick up 4.3 pool riders?????? no there is no way to write off miles if you are an employee. any driver who is on obamacare etc will see there income shoot up thanks to this and pay higher premiums. All they have to do is give a minimum 1.00 per mile, rase the rates, there is no need to be an employee


all rules can be modified......the problem is that CA. government don't know the full extent of uber's thieving ways....

We have to have a voice in the process.


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> If any of us told Uberlyft:
> 
> "My business is adversely affected by the combined effect of all the pay cuts. I need a special carve-out from the high Uberlyft commission in order to make my ridesharing economically viable", then the answer would at best be NO, at worst we'd just be ignored. So it's very pleasing that Uberlyft is getting the same response now from CA legislators


Haha, well put. Where is my carve out F. U. Ber. I just want to let everyone know that California Law has claimed us as employees with the rights that come with it. Just because I have a flexible work schedule does not change that in the eye of the Law. There is no arguing. If anyone doesn't like the law, protest the supreme judge that made it the law through precedence. There is no I want this and that so I can be a contractor. It's not my choice nor Dara's. So all the ideas of what I want to stay as a contractor and role with U/L is a dead end in California. It is the LAW already and AB5 just confirms the law not create or define it. It's just too late, the train left, the ship sank, the chickens came home, or whatever. My only option in California is to fight for flexibility with my UNION, and 30$ h. That's the state of affairs where I'm at.


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

dnlbaboof said:


> what benefit is this? we get a minimum wage where youre forced to pick up 4.3 pool riders?????? no there is no way to write off miles if you are an employee. any driver who is on obamacare etc will see there income shoot up thanks to this and pay higher premiums. All they have to do is give a minimum 1.00 per mile, rase the rates, there is no need to be an employee


what law or rule states pizza delivery driver employees are not allowed to deduct miles driven with their own car ?


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## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> If any of us told Uberlyft:
> 
> "My business is adversely affected by the combined effect of all the pay cuts. I need a special carve-out from the high Uberlyft commission in order to make my ridesharing economically viable", then the answer would at best be NO, at worst we'd just be ignored. So it's very pleasing that Uberlyft is getting the same response now from CA legislators


Haha, well put. Where is my carve out F. U. Ber. I just want to let everyone know that California Law has claimed us as employees with the rights that come with it. Just because I have a flexible work schedule does not change that in the eye of the Law. There is no arguing. If anyone doesn't like the law, protest the supreme judge that made it the law through precedence. There is no I want this and that so I can be a contractor. It's not my choice nor Dara's. So all the ideas of what I want to stay as a contractor and role with U/L is a dead end in California. It is the LAW already and AB5 just confirms the law not create or define it. It's just too late, the train left, the ship sank, or whatever. My only option in California is to fight for flexibility with my Union and a 30$h wage.


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## UberProphet? (Dec 24, 2014)

uberdriverfornow said:


> no way, it would get blocked on anti-trust concerns


Yes, just like Sirius and the other satellite radio broadcaster. 
Whoops, Never mind!


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

UberProphet? said:


> Yes, just like Sirius and the other satellite radio broadcaster.
> Whoops, Never mind!


Exactly. There is no more anti trust blockage.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

tohunt4me said:


> Humming " we said we would all go down together"
> " Yes we would all go down together"- Billy Joel
> Goodnight Saigon.


Naw.
Humans are very, very adaptable.
It is why we are on the top of the food chain.

A hundred years ago gov't put a tax on newspapers based on the number of pages . Know what happened? The publishers printed on huge sheets of paper and fewer of them. That's why a newspaper is so big.

Two hundred years ago in Great Britain, they taxed real estate based on the number of windows ... look at a castle in olde England, and I bet there's more than one window bricked in.

People today form corporations to avoid estate taxes, geographically position local companies and branches to avoid state income and sales taxes, etc.

The last sentence of one report I read stated: "So what does it all mean? Despite the likelihood of AB5 passing, businesses with independent contractors don't need to despair just yet. Now's the time to take a good hard look at your current IC practices across the board and make corrections sooner rather than later."

What does that mean?
That means that they'll adapt.
They know what's coming; and you can bet that there is a ten person legal team with the task of: "Come up with a plan of action for complying with the new law."

The company that I work for now has such a team (not for AB5, but for other laws). They are a legal cannabis company in California. The laws regulating that industry are many, and strict, and often conflicting between multiple jurisdictions. We adapt. We comply.


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## Buckiemohawk (Jun 23, 2015)

All Uber has to do is raise the rate and take a lower percentage. Let drivers cancel rides but once you hit accept you must take the ride unless its going over 30 miles. If they put in real regulations U/L and the rest of them would not have this problem.


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## Flier5425 (Jun 2, 2016)

charmer37 said:


> These companies also need to have a better screening system for account holders, Drivers don't have a clue who they're picking up, They need to do a complete over haul on the rating system and have better protections in place for drivers safety.


Simple ratings system overhaul would be a thumbs up or thumbs down rating. Thumbs up means you would ride with this person again while a thumbs down would say you don't want to ride with this person again. With a thumbs down the system would un-pair you with the driver. As some point the poor drivers would go away organically because few people would want to have them as their driver. This would also remove Uber/Lyft from control of who drives and who doesn't. I guess drivers would rate the riders on the same 5-1 scale so we could decide to pick up or pass on their next potential pax.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Buckiemohawk said:


> All Uber has to do is raise the rate and take a lower percentage. Let drivers cancel rides but once you hit accept you must take the ride unless its going over 30 miles. If they put in real regulations U/L and the rest of them would not have this problem.


Whether you are an independent consultant, or an employee has NOTHING TO DO with the fairness of your pay, the screening that the company does, the manner in which they evaluate your work. It has NOTHING to do with how happy you are with the way the company is managed, or how they collect from their customers, or how much they collect from their customers, how high your costs go (or theirs either for that matter.)
There are specific rules defining an IC. The disagreement right now is the interpretation of those rules. 
But, none of those rules say anything about 'canceling rides' or 'over thirty miles' or the company keeps 50% or 30% or 60% ... and that won't change.
I think that most drivers who want to be an employee are not really considering ALL of the ramifications.



Flier5425 said:


> Simple ratings system overhaul would be a thumbs up or thumbs down rating.


Do you really think that this new law is going to address 'thumbs up vs thumbs down'?


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## Tironius (Mar 11, 2016)

If this law goes into effect, your hours of driving per week will be capped at 29.5. you will be forced to maintain a part-time position. You will not get health insurance. my guess, and we can check back in the future if I’m right, is that drivers will be switched to an hourly of minimum-wage, with a very, very tiny bonus (cents) per mile. The long trips, short trips, it will be hourly. These are my predictions, what are some others?


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Tironius said:


> If this law goes into effect, your hours of driving per week will be capped at 29.5. you will be forced to maintain a part-time position. You will not get health insurance. my guess, and we can check back in the future if I'm right, is that drivers will be switched to an hourly of minimum-wage, with a very, very tiny bonus (cents) per mile. The long trips, short trips, it will be hourly. These are my predictions, what are some others?


29.5 hours...

Hmm...

Let's crunch those numbers shall we, let's see what they really are...

29.5 hours = $249.57 in florida.

HMM

PLUS

Employees HAVE to make that much past any deductions, with mileage being a big one. Around here that's 20-25 miles driven per hour. They could sue (and win) if they don't pay expenses per IRS standards. Papa John's lost a similar lawsuit. At a cost of .58 per mile...

.58 X 20 =$11.60 X 29.5 = $342.20
.58 X 25 = $14.50 X 29.5 = $427.75

So for 29.5 hours in the state of Florida, i would be due a total of...

$591.77 TO $677.32
PLUS Tips
PLUS Tolls

*This is $29,588.5 PER YEAR PLUS TIPS FOR ONE APP!*

For the record, this is massively higher than the current earnings for 40 hours a week here.

They are paying such little amounts that enforcing employee standards would be a *massive* increase.

This is a *significant* increase in pay compared to a Florida driver working 30 hours, or about the same as a florida driver working 60 now.

The solution would be 29.5 hours on uber and 29.5 hours on lyft.

Assuming you max out the hours on both uber/lyft...

$1,183.54 to $1,354.64
PLUS tips (and assuming tolls are a wash)
Minus expenses...

Taking two weeks off this is _*$59,000 plus tips per year.*_

Truth be told.... min wage plus expenses would be enough of an increase that in Florida we would be getting SIGNIFICANTLY more than we currently get for 40 or 50 hours with _less in expenses.

And this is assuming Uber/lyft cut you off at 29.5 hours a week._


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> 29.5 hours...
> 
> Hmm...
> 
> ...


??


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> 29.5 hours = $249.57 in florida.
> Employees HAVE to make that much past any deductions, with mileage being a big one. Around here that's 20-25 miles driven per hour. They could sue (and win) if they don't pay expenses per IRS standards. Papa John's lost a similar lawsuit. At a cost of .58 per mile...
> 
> Truth be told.... min wage plus expenses would be enough of an increase that in Florida we would be getting SIGNIFICANTLY more than we currently get for 40 or 50 hours with _less in expenses._


_"As a general rule, employees are hired at will. This means an employer can impose requirements such as making you use your own vehicle at work. *Employers are not required to reimburse you for mileage in most states.* However, if a company has a stated policy of reimbursing mileage or if reimbursement is part of a union or other employment contract, you usually must be paid for work-related mileage."

"However, some states have their own laws surrounding expense reimbursement. Those states include: Illinois, California, Massachusetts, Montana, Pennsylvania, New York, Iowa, and the District of Columbia. Illinois was the newest addition this year."_

I don't see Florida on that list.
Looks like you're making just the ~$250 in your example, with no benefits, and using the SMD come tax time.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

I think it's important to point out that the wage and hour laws require that workers be paid at least the minimum wage AFTER EXPENSES. (like a vehicle).

So Uber and Lyft will have to account (ie: pay for) for those driver vehicle expenses in order for a driver to make at least the minimum wage. The IRS says those expenses are .58 cents a mile and that is most likely going to be the number that Lyft and Uber will have to use.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Taxi2Uber said:


> _"As a general rule, employees are hired at will. This means an employer can impose requirements such as making you use your own vehicle at work. *Employers are not required to reimburse you for mileage in most states.* However, if a company has a stated policy of reimbursing mileage or if reimbursement is part of a union or other employment contract, you usually must be paid for work-related mileage."
> 
> "However, some states have their own laws surrounding expense reimbursement. Those states include: Illinois, California, Massachusetts, Montana, Pennsylvania, New York, Iowa, and the District of Columbia. Illinois was the newest addition this year."_
> 
> ...


Well, yes and no.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs47.htm
Wages must be paid free and clear of impermissible deductions -- *such as the costs of operating the vehicle or traveling on the road* -- that would reduce pay below the federal minimum. Deductions that are impermissible when they reduce pay below the federal minimum include the cost of gas, oil, tires, repairs to the truck, tolls or the cost of food or lodging for the employees while they are traveling.

So if you make more than min wage after deducting the cost, they do NOT have to reimburse you.

Some real world examples...

If Attorney Alice has to drive from the office to the courthouse 3 counties over, it is not required to reimburse her mileage because she makes $80 an hour.

However if Joe the receptionist has to use his own car to pick up the cake for someone's birthday party and Joe makes exactly min wage they do have to reimburse his miles, because otherwise Joe would be below min wage.

(However they could give Joe $5 out of petty cash and as long as it's under 8.62 miles round trip that's entirely acceptable.)


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