# Drivers: want to make a fair amount using Uber and Lyft? We already have the power to do it!



## Driving4Dollars (Feb 10, 2016)

IMPORTANT: How to restore our Driver income to make driving with UBER profitable again! It's perfectly legal and our contract right!

SUGGESTION: DO NOT GO ON STRIKE OR SAY ANYTHING TO RIDERS CRITICAL OF UBER OR LYFT. RIDERS CAN FORM THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS. BE 100% CONSISTENT AND INSIST UPON PAYMENT AS DESCRIBED BELOW.

BACKGROUND:
Just carefully re-read my original contract agreement with Raiser, referenced on Uber's Dashboard under Profile at the bottom of the page. This seems to be the central document defining Drivers' rights and obligations, along with Uber's powers to change rates for rider and driver use of its app/referral service. It has clear language which gives drivers the right to charge more money than Uber's new rates. Our Agreement with Uber says: "In addition, the parties acknowledge and agree that as between you and Company, the Fare is a recommended amount, and the primary purpose of the pre-arranged Fare is to act as the default amount in the event you do not negotiate a different amount." The Agreement leaves no doubt that every Driver is free to negotiate his or her own fees with Riders obtained through the Uber App services, in paragraph 4.1.

The recent contract updates sent each driver for online approval, which changed Uber rates locally, apparently didn't impose any additional obligations on how we drive or charge passengers, so the 2014 Agreement terms on those issues is still in effect, I believe. The lack of any recent driver prohibitions is no surprise because Uber is fighting hard to show we are all independent contractors and can make our own decisions on negotiating with passengers to transport them. Reports by drivers on UberPeople are that Uber is now avoiding cancellation of driving rights for refusing pickups under its old percentage formula, no doubt because that control over drivers also will be evidence that Drivers are employees instead of independent contractors. We know that losing that argument in the pending cases could destroy Uber financially, so there is little fear that it will start a large campaign to ban drivers for what terms they negotiate directly with their passengers.

WHAT TO DO:

This will only work if many drivers do this at the same time, to prevent Riders from cancelling to switch the ride to a different Uber driver. To make it pay, we also need Lyft drivers (who suffered the same lowering in Lyft fares) to do the same at the same time. Before beginning, meetings between local drivers in your area should take place and a standard fee should be settled upon! I suggest setting up a sign inviting all UBER & LYFT drivers to stop to discuss it in a prime area for riders in your city, and include on the sign free coffee for all UBER and LYFT drivers is being provided.

1. When a ride request to anywhere is received, accept the ride.
2. It will be best to have a paper with your large-print requirements for starting the drive taped to the passenger side sun visor, facing the rear seat so there is no doubt that it applies to every Rider you transport.
3. Do not hit the App button telling Uber/Lyft that you have arrived or have started the trip, until after you are paid as described below.
4. When the riders enter the car, explain that a cash or credit card tip/fee must be paid to you in advance, or you will not take them on the trip. If objected to or asked for explanation, tell riders that Uber/Lyft has reduced its charge for use of its App, and has left you with the need to negotiate directly with passengers for the reasonable expense of your driving services. Explain that you have the right to do this under your agreement with Uber/Lyft. If you wish, obtain a credit card phone attachment to run the payment on their card, including any applicable fees; or otherwise insist that the advance payment be in cash. Be 100% courteous if the riders decline to accept your advance charge, and tell them they are free to negotiate a different free with another driver (but you can say that you have been informed that your rate is the same as others in your area have agreed between yourselves to charge). You are free to agree to drive only for a particular fee, so it is only right to allow riders the freedom to negotiate with others or to walk instead.
5. As for South Florida, I am suggesting the up-front charge be $2.00 per passenger or $3.00 for a single rider. The majority of Riders here, sadly, do not tip at all, making the present Uber and Lyft fee rates essentially a zero income proposition for most drivers after expenses and auto depreciation are subtracted. Before the demand begins, other frequent drivers should be able to comment and a consensus reached on the amount of the charge, so it is uniform and discourages shopping for drivers by the Riders. In South Florida these suggested charges will still leave the ride priced a lot lower than taxi charges. Uber and Lyft remain a bargain.

The above arrangement should be discussed, if opportunity arises, with all drivers recruited with our codes for Uber and Lyft.

I like driving and would rather not give it up, so its up to us to work together instead of finding income elsewhere.

Love to hear everybody's comments.

Don't worry, be happy. You have nothing to lose if only receiving current payment scales through Uber or Lyft anyhow.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Good luck with that, let me know how long it takes to get deactivated.


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## Driving4Dollars (Feb 10, 2016)

Hope that does not happen. But if Uber breaks its own contract, and deactivates me after my posting here, I would expect it result in one hell of a money judgment against it, worthy of any lawyer who wants to file class actions.


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## McLovin (Dec 7, 2015)

This sounds like the "you constitutionally don't have to pay taxes" loophole I've heard before.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Driving4Dollars said:


> IMPORTANT: How to restore our Driver income to make driving with UBER profitable again! It's perfectly legal and our contract right!
> 
> SUGGESTION: DO NOT GO ON STRIKE OR SAY ANYTHING TO RIDERS CRITICAL OF UBER OR LYFT. RIDERS CAN FORM THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS. BE 100% CONSISTENT AND INSIST UPON PAYMENT AS DESCRIBED BELOW.
> 
> ...


You really think some drunk Uber customer is going to go for that? After the pax cancels on you they'll e-mail Uber about the situation. And just as easy as you started driving for Uber, there's 1000's more ready to drive their cars in the ground for pennies. The quality of drivers has diminished drastically in the last 6 months. You will never get enough drivers to go for that. This forum seems to only reach about 1% of drivers.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Driving4Dollars said:


> Hope that does not happen. But if Uber breaks its own contract, and deactivates me after my posting here, I would expect it result in one hell of a money judgment against it, worthy of any lawyer who wants to file class actions.


They won't deactivate you for that specifically, they will deactivate you for low ratings because every rider will be pissed at you. Besides, they can terminate the contract for any reason. Move on.


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## Thatendedbadly (Feb 8, 2016)

Yeah, when pax get pissed you will get low ratings and get the boot from Uber. These low rates are a bell that's going to be difficult to un-ring until Uber has near monopoly status in the marketplaces they operate in. What you're suggesting is like a WalMart worker acting like an a**hole towards the customers to try to force management to pay them more. If you really enjoy driving people around for a living you might be better off finding employment with a traditional livery company with better wage guarantees, even if Uber dropped their 'no tipping' policy I'd be very surprised if the average driver saw a substantial increase in their percentage of fares that tipped. Uber has customers because they're generally inexpensive and available, for some people even the idea of having to tip $1-2 dollars is repugnant, they're entitled to that low fare, right?


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## Driving4Dollars (Feb 10, 2016)

I'm disappointed with this unanimous negative response.

Regardless of the contract's enabling language, if that's your response to this idea, and past entreaties to Uber have already been met with silence or scorn, there remains only one conclusion. Any understanding between most drivers in any region, to demand a direct payment from pax, will be impossible to attain. No one has any enthusiasm for any realistic solution.

So I gather that all of you will continue driving at a loss or near break-even until the car is repossessed and you get evicted? Or is there a near unanimous opinion that you must find other work? The only other possibility that comes to mind is that you all live with your parents and survive on their money.

Even if you can just hang on at current rates, you are one parking ticket or car repair from financial collapse. Or you can do no work except to con others online to start driving for the bonus signup money from Uber & Lyft. What an honorable career that is! Bernie Maddox would be proud.

As for me, I have to do better than is possible now. 70 hour weeks can't make it here at these rates. I've tried.

Too bad. If anybody had a different response I'd like to know, if only to see whether I was the only one who thought it was worth doing something to remain a driver.

"When you ain't got nothin' you've got nothin' to lose." 
- Bob Dylan, _Like a Rolling Stone
_
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
- Kris Kristofferson, _Me and Bobbie McGee_


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## steel108 (Dec 19, 2015)

Driving4Dollars said:


> Hope that does not happen. But if Uber breaks its own contract, and deactivates me after my posting here, I would expect it result in one hell of a money judgment against it, worthy of any lawyer who wants to file class actions.


LOL do you know anything about the legal system LOL. No lawyer would touch your case. "One hell of a money judgement" LOLOLOLOLOLOL. The truth is that your "case" will be dismissed and you will have to pay Ubers legal fees. Since your lawsuit is frivolous, you will probably have to pay punitive damages as well LOL.

YOU ARE AN INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR. I have no idea if we are allowed to negotiate fares, but I know that Uber doesn't need a reason to deactivate you. "I don't like his name. Deactivate." YOU HAVE ZERO RECOURSE. NONE, ZIP, NADA

Please don't think you matter to Uber. 1 rider complains and bye bye (the first rider will complain). The rest of the drivers will quickly back off.


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## steel108 (Dec 19, 2015)

To the OP, stop being an idiot with this ******ed talk about negotiating fares.

There's one way to make more money: Pax app on and Driver app off. WAIT FOR SURGES ONLY. I make 35-45/hour after Ubers cut; the reason is simple, I only take rides that are 3x surge. That's how I negotiate my fare and it worked out pretty well


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## Thatendedbadly (Feb 8, 2016)

Driving4Dollars said:


> I'm disappointed with this unanimous negative response.


You claim negative, I claim realistic.....
In the absence on a union, begging a large corporation-which is in the business of making profits-for part of those profits is futile. In the metro areas where Uber operates, they have more than enough drivers to keep their business afloat and profitable, in areas where they don't they'll keep the present fare structure as long as it's cost effective for THEM, drivers don't enter that equation unless they run into a severe shortage of drivers which forces them to raise their rates. Begging the pax for money won't work for any number of reason, if you think that's an effective strategy go for it, let us know how it works out. Seriously. The best advice I've read here is to use both apps-Lyft does have better rates for drivers-and drive for Uber only during surges using the customer app to determine when to go online, and selectively accept/cancel fares based on where you might end up if you accept.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Driving4Dollars said:


> I'm disappointed with this unanimous negative response.
> 
> Regardless of the contract's enabling language, if that's your response to this idea, and past entreaties to Uber have already been met with silence or scorn, there remains only one conclusion. Any understanding between most drivers in any region, to demand a direct payment from pax, will be impossible to attain. No one has any enthusiasm for any realistic solution.


Your "realistic" solution is anything but. 1) If drivers were so easily organized and coordinated, the strikes would have been much more impactful. 2) Passengers don't WANT what you propose. How do I know this? Because that is the system the taxis and black car services used. 3) Uber/Lyft can and will deactivate you for GOOD CAUSE when your riders begin to complain and your rating falls below acceptable levels.



> So I gather that all of you will continue driving at a loss or near break-even until the car is repossessed and you get evicted? Or is there a near unanimous opinion that you must find other work? The only other possibility that comes to mind is that you all live with your parents and survive on their money.


Ah, my favorite TNC guru last resort when debate fails. "I can't figure out how to do well at this, so clearly there is no way and everyone who continues doing it is an idiotic, naive, misinformed, leech who lives in parent's basement. Been doing this full time for almost 9 months. I have two kids I mostly support on my own. My fiancé and I just closed on a $400k home, I have almost no debt, and I have more free time than ever before. See pic below.



> Even if you can just hang on at current rates, you are one parking ticket or car repair from financial collapse. Or you can do no work except to con others online to start driving for the bonus signup money from Uber & Lyft. What an honorable career that is! Bernie Maddox would be proud.
> 
> As for me, I have to do better than is possible now. 70 hour weeks can't make it here at these rates. I've tried.
> 
> ...


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Earnings from 2/9


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

its easier to just quit. Boston berry , great job last week


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## Driving4Dollars (Feb 10, 2016)

BostonBarry, I congratulate you on your Lyft earnings up there. Wish I could watch you in action, obviously you know things.

Your statement from Lyft shows you are a Lyft mentor, got decent tips through the Lyft App, and qualified for Lyft's 20% bonus by driving during the prime hours Lyft designates each week.

Your statement proves the differences between Lyft and Uber can mean more money to the Lyft driver. The Uber high surges have been hard to profit from in S. Fla., but I see the Lyft 20% is within a dedicated driver's grasp. Thank you.

___________________________________________________________________
Related to the problem I have in making a living ; Uber's website this morning has this in big type on its front page, reminding me why almost all pax here don't pay tips to Uber drivers, besides the missing tip box in its App:

*No cash, no tip, no hassle*

*When you arrive at your destination, just *
*hop out-we'll automatically charge the *
*credit card on file. And there's no need to tip.*

Also Uber's site still emphasizes:

*Your driver knows exactly where to go. And payment is completely cashless.*

Already knew Uber is different than Lyft when it comes to treating its drivers, was distracted by Uber's big surge numbers. 
My return today to Uber's website was prompted by a big advert by Uber posted on today's big event's website. 

Thanks again for your post, Barry.


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## Tequila Jake (Jan 28, 2016)

Driving4Dollars said:


> IMPORTANT: How to restore our Driver income to make driving with UBER profitable again! It's perfectly legal and our contract right!
> 
> .


It's been almost a week since you posted. How has this worked out for you?


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## JerseyBoy911 (Nov 14, 2015)

steel108 said:


> To the OP, stop being an idiot with this ******ed talk about negotiating fares.
> 
> There's one way to make more money: Pax app on and Driver app off. WAIT FOR SURGES ONLY. I make 35-45/hour after Ubers cut; the reason is simple, I only take rides that are 3x surge. That's how I negotiate my fare and it worked out pretty well


Until you start getting requests outside of a surge and when you ignore those requests they put you in a timeout of the app for 30mins, then eventually you're deactivated.



Thatendedbadly said:


> Seriously. The best advice I've read here is to use both apps-Lyft does have better rates for drivers-and drive for Uber only during surges using the customer app to determine when to go online, and selectively accept/cancel fares based on where you might end up if you accept.


If you accept? You better accept. As stated above, you will get timed out and eventually deactivated for just ignoring requests.

Sounds like a breach of contract to me.

Sounds like we're employees.

Yea, uber will win in court...sure...because they are doing so oooo well in the California case...


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## Tequila Jake (Jan 28, 2016)

JerseyBoy911 said:


> Until you start getting requests outside of a surge and when you ignore those requests they put you in a timeout of the app for 30mins, then eventually you're deactivated.
> 
> If you accept? You better accept. As stated above, you will get timed out and eventually deactivated for just ignoring requests.


So the punishment for not accepting requests is that you're not allowed to accept requests?

Sounds like high school when they would suspend you for skipping class.


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## JerseyBoy911 (Nov 14, 2015)

Tequila Jake said:


> So the punishment for not accepting requests is that you're not allowed to accept requests?
> 
> Sounds like high school when they would suspend you for skipping class.


I'm not sure where you're at but here in New Jersey that is what they are doing. They start you out at two minute timeouts then equals to 4 minute time out then he goes to 30 minutes time outs then finally deactivation


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## Thatendedbadly (Feb 8, 2016)

JerseyBoy911 said:


> Until you start getting requests outside of a surge and when you ignore those requests they put you in a timeout of the app for 30mins, then eventually you're deactivated.
> 
> If you accept? You better accept. As stated above, you will get timed out and eventually deactivated for just ignoring requests.
> 
> ...


Accept/cancel. Yes, as counter-intuitive as it seems Uber considers the two entirely different subjects, a 90% *acceptance* rate and a 25% *completion* rate are some of the criteria used to determine fare guarantee eligibility. If the two had the same weight, why wouldn't Uber incentives reflect that?


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## JerseyBoy911 (Nov 14, 2015)

Thatendedbadly said:


> Accept/cancel. Yes, as counter-intuitive as it seems Uber considers the two entirely different subjects, a 90% *acceptance* rate and a 25% *completion* rate are some of the criteria used to determine fare guarantee eligibility. If the two had the same weight, why wouldn't Uber incentives reflect that?


Because this isn't ride-share, this is a taxi service and we are employees. If we were contractors we wouldnt be penalized for not wanting to accept a ride that wasn't surge due to low ratings.

Working the guarantees makes me beholden to certain hours instead of the flexibility they promote which again, seems like I'm an employee.

Regardless if they can end the relationship at anytime....it's still a breach of said contract and I can sue.


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## ubersuxx (Mar 2, 2016)

I think we need some UBER/Lyft drivers club/union like setup (how do we Uber/lyft spys out is another question, yet I do have some ideas on this).
If there were such a thing and we had some significant number of people all go offline for a hour, or 15mins, etc.
This could be coordinated to happen at a high rider request time... it would get their attention. Would have to be enough drivers they could not deactivate everybody. This not well thought out i admit and I am shooting from the hip but, the basis of the idea is that no drivers=no rides=no Uber.
we as drivers really are the basis of their rideshare business even though Uber acts as though its the customer. With a unified drivers
group and the ability to significantly reduce drivers available at our will is powerful. In any event, we need driver unification first then a plan.


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## ubersuxx (Mar 2, 2016)

JerseyBoy911 said:


> Because this isn't ride-share, this is a taxi service and we are employees. If we were contractors we wouldnt be penalized for not wanting to accept a ride that wasn't surge due to low ratings.
> 
> Working the guarantees makes me beholden to certain hours instead of the flexibility they promote which again, seems like I'm an employee.
> 
> Regardless if they can end the relationship at anytime....it's still a breach of said contract and I can sue.


Uber says they just an app! BS! Uber is they only app that tells you you MUST push certain buttons at certains with a certain frequency Uber decides, etc or we deactivate (fire) you. And if you dont use the app long enough (2 weeks lets say) you get threatened with deactivation.. and i am sure if I wrote back and said i'm on a vacation Uber would be like OK we expect to go online when you return, have a great vacation! Sounds like an employer to me.

However, I believe the rate guarantee is another gimmick... yet I dont understand the-->>> 90% *acceptance* rate and a 25% *completion* rate
requirement. It sounds like a trap to me... otherwise I could accept all rides then cancel down to 25% but canceling that much would get you deactivated... why do you think they're weighted so differently?


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

ubersuxx said:


> Uber says they just an app! BS! Uber is they only app that tells you you MUST push certain buttons at certains with a certain frequency Uber decides, etc or we deactivate (fire) you. And if you dont use the app long enough (2 weeks lets say) you get threatened with deactivation.. and i am sure if I wrote back and said i'm on a vacation Uber would be like OK we expect to go online when you return, have a great vacation! Sounds like an employer to me.
> 
> However, I believe the rate guarantee is another gimmick... yet I dont understand the-->>> 90% *acceptance* rate and a 25% *completion* rate
> requirement. It sounds like a trap to me... otherwise I could accept all rides then cancel down to 25% but canceling that much would get you deactivated... why do you think they're weighted so differently?


Cuz acceptance is all YOU

Completion - influenced by others.... Drunk pax messing stuff up , pax ordering for group from multiple phones but only taking one, pax expectations based on others' behaviour whether to give you time to Uturn or cancel if they don't like the way and speed of the you moving towards em.. Bad pins,no shows, convincing pax to cancel... Etc etc

Also weighted differently cuz those skilled at manipulating pax to cancel make it feel like THEIR decision to THEIR advantage... Hence customer doesn't feel screwed over or unwanted or whatnot


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

Uber adds that "unless you negotiate" into the TOS so that it looks like it gives us "independent contractor" status if sued. The problem is that we can't enforce it or we get deactivated. This will all come out in the trial I'm sure.


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## The Uber Boomer (Jan 29, 2018)

Yikes! I would never have the Testicular Fortitude to do something like that. LOL


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

Protests will get nothing done.

I learned this when the UberBlack drivers at the Orlando airport tried to strike when uber slashed rates at the airport days before Hurricane Mathew hit. (yes uber cut rates days before the hurricane hit)


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