# The Drivers Catch on Fast



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

It didn't take long for Plus drivers to clear the streets after the last pay cut. There was an almost immediate decline in Plus vehicles on the street. This morning, none where all last year there were several in the primary hot area I scan before deciding not to go out. And the amount of std. Lyft rides is down considerably as well.

Looks like the paycut is doing it's job.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm not driving until this "temporary" pay cut (Sorry, "earning opportunity") is adjusted back over $1/mile.

Even at that rate, it is not lucrative to destroy my car's future value. The January/February doldrums are just not worth the bother, especially given power driver status now requires more customers using Lyft than I've ever had in my car, even during the busiest summer months.

Screwber Uber, and I'm miffed at Lyft. Time for another income choice.


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

Here in Denver, XL and Lyft Plus didn't receive rate cuts. UberX and regular Lyft did. I now will only accept XL and Plus pings. On Uber I created an "XL only" account, but Lyft won't let me do that. My acceptance rate is now abysmally low with Lyft.


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## rickybobby (Jul 13, 2015)

sicky said:


> Here in Denver, XL and Lyft Plus didn't receive rate cuts. UberX and regular Lyft did. I now will only accept XL and Plus pings. On Uber I created an "XL only" account, but Lyft won't let me do that. My acceptance rate is now abysmally low with Lyft.


If you even care..... keep in mind cancelling on Lyft will result in deactivation if it happens too much. Unlike F-UBER where you will be ok with the "cancel/other reason" after acceptance.


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

rickybobby said:


> If you even care..... keep in mind cancelling on Lyft will result in deactivation if it happens too much. Unlike F-UBER where you will be ok with the "cancel/other reason" after acceptance.


I am actively seeking other employment. I am shocked they haven't deactivated me yet considering the email I sent them after they cut rates. I was brutally honest. Unfortunately, it seems that they don't even read their emails. They now do a cut & paste reply like uber.


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## ORT (Nov 14, 2015)

DieselkW said:


> I'm not driving until this "temporary" pay cut (Sorry, "earning opportunity") is adjusted back over $1/mile.
> 
> Even at that rate, it is not lucrative to destroy my car's future value. The January/February doldrums are just not worth the bother, especially given power driver status now requires more customers using Lyft than I've ever had in my car, even during the busiest summer months.
> 
> Screwber Uber, and I'm miffed at Lyft. Time for another income choice.


Rate cuts are NOT temporary, they can only go down, not up.


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

ORT said:


> Rate cuts are NOT temporary, they can only go down, not up.


I think if 90% of the drivers quit, they MAY go up. I don't think 90% of the drivers will quit, so yes, they can only go down.


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## osii (Aug 21, 2014)

Cost nothing to run ads on CL and lie to potential new hires. Lyft is still advertising $35/hr.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

When gasoline prices start rising again and get up close to $3 a gallon, Lyft and Uber will need to increase the fares...just like Airlines do when jet fuel prices go up.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Why?


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

AllenChicago said:


> When gasoline prices start rising again and get up close to $3 a gallon, Lyft and Uber will need to increase the fares...just like Airlines do when jet fuel prices go up.


Airlines increase their rates when gas goes up and then when gas goes down they never lower rates. This is to make them more money.

Uber lowers prices when gas goes down and then when gas goes up they never increase rates. This is to make them them more money (SRF is what they make their money on).


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

sicky said:


> Airlines increase their rates when gas goes up and then when gas goes down they never lower rates. This is to make them more money.
> 
> Uber lowers prices when gas goes down and then when gas goes up they never increase rates. This is to make them them more money (SRF is what they make their money on).


Uber lowers prices when it has more drivers.

The only ingredient to this business model is a driver with a car.

Cost of anything related to the car is completely irrelevant.

Needs and living wages of drivers who invested in the car, spent the time and money driving pax around is as well irrelevant.

Only way for Uber to fix itself is if we can create a shortage of uber-drivers.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

sicky said:


> Airlines increase their rates when gas goes up and then when gas goes down they never lower rates. This is to make them more money.
> 
> Uber lowers prices when gas goes down and then when gas goes up they never increase rates. This is to make them them more money (SRF is what they make their money on).


What is SRF? Newer drivers like me aren't up on all the Lyft acronyms yet. Don't you think Lyft/Uber will make less money as gas prices go up, and drivers stop driving? Lyft/Uber will have to either: 1.) Pay us more in commission from each fare, or 2.) Raise Prices and keep commission percentage the same as now, or 3.) Go out of business, or move into another type of business...like Package Delivery, or something else.


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

UberXTampa said:


> Uber lowers prices when it has more drivers.
> 
> The only ingredient to this business model is a driver with a car.
> 
> ...


You are correct, It is more related to number of drivers instead of cost of gas.


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

AllenChicago said:


> What is SRF? Newer drivers like me aren't up on all the Lyft acronyms yet. Don't you think Lyft/Uber will make less money as gas prices go up, and drivers stop driving? Lyft/Uber will have to either: 1.) Pay us more in commission from each fare, or 2.) Raise Prices and keep commission percentage the same as now, or 3.) Go out of business, or move into another type of business...like Package Delivery, or something else.


SRF is Safe Rides Fee. That's what Uber calls the $1.95 fee they take from every trip. They claim it's for background checks. The more riders they get, the more fees they get. Lowering prices produces more rides, which makes them more money.

Lyft also charges a $1.95 fee, but I'm not sure what they call it.


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## ORT (Nov 14, 2015)

AllenChicago said:


> When gasoline prices start rising again and get up close to $3 a gallon, Lyft and Uber will need to increase the fares...just like Airlines do when jet fuel prices go up.


Newsflash, rates are not going up, and gas will drop to $10 a barrel.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

Gas prices will eventually go up. Oil producers and oil investors will see to that. But more importantly for the here and now, how low of a fare are Lyft and Uber drivers willing to drive for? Do most just look at the short-term gain, without factoring in vehicle depreciation and maintenance items?


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

AllenChicago said:


> Gas prices will eventually go up. Oil producers and oil investors will see to that. But more importantly for the here and now, how low of a fare are Lyft and Uber drivers willing to drive for? Do most just look at the short-term gain, without factoring in vehicle depreciation and maintenance items?


They can't go up soon enough for me! I was making 6 figures in the oil industry. My experience is extremely specialized and have had a hard time finding employment elsewhere.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

AllenChicago said:


> When gasoline prices start rising again and get up close to $3 a gallon, Lyft and Uber will need to increase the fares...just like Airlines do when jet fuel prices go up.


What? Airlines pay their own fuel bill. Drivers pay Uber's and Lyft's fuel bill. Why would they have to raise the rates when they are not paying for the fuel? More likely, they will further lower the rates to see how many idiots will keep driving.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> What? Airlines pay their own fuel bill. Drivers pay Uber's and Lyft's fuel bill. Why would they have to raise the rates when they are not paying for the fuel? More likely, they will further lower the rates to see how many idiots will keep driving.


Good point Greguzzi! Do you think enough "idots" will keep driving to keep Lyft management satisfied? In this area (Chicago), Lyft could raise fares by 25% and we'd still be less expensive than a cab, taxi, or limo.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

sicky said:


> Here in Denver, XL and Lyft Plus didn't receive rate cuts. UberX and regular Lyft did. I now will only accept XL and Plus pings. On Uber I created an "XL only" account, but Lyft won't let me do that. My acceptance rate is now abysmally low with Lyft.


What is the approach or process you went through to get your UberXL-only account set up in your market? Is it also possible to set up an UberSelect-only account in your market?

In Cleveland I heard Uber doesn't allow UberXL-only nor UberSelect-only accounts.


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## andaas (May 19, 2015)

AllenChicago said:


> Good point Greguzzi! Do you think enough "idots" will keep driving to keep Lyft management satisfied? In this area (Chicago), Lyft could raise fares by 25% and we'd still be less expensive than a cab, taxi, or limo.


In Dallas, Lyft could double rates and still technically be cheaper than taxis (same mileage rate; but taxis here charge $2 per passenger in addition to the fare).


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

ORT said:


> Rate cuts are NOT temporary, they can only go down, not up.


What goes up goes down and vice versa. Markets demand change and if you're a company refusing to change in response to the market, you're not going to be in business very long.

The TNC business lowers fares to attract riders to the platform in an attempt to gain market share. If you really think they will "never" raise fare prices to increase profits once they have saturated rider membership you don't know how to run a business.

Fares WILL increase, I just can't say when. Taxi prices are considerably higher than TNC prices right now. The taxi industry knows what price the market will bear, and they have not folded up their briefcases and gone home just because there's a new fleet of drivers on the road. 
Taxi prices have not decreased dramatically in response to TNC entry into their market. Why? Because they know how much it costs to maintain a car and have set their prices accordingly to provide salaries and profit.

Eventually, the stupid drooling fools that are willing to drive for TNC prices because they are only paying $1.50 for 25-30 miles and think the balance is profit will realize they are simply turning their car's future value into cash today.

Whether or not you agree to the IRS/AAA formula that it costs an average of 56¢ a mile is not relevant. (It's a high number for me) It is an irrefutable FACT that driving a car costs more than fuel and if your cost calculation doesn't include:

cost of car
replacement value

loan interest

planned and unplanned maintenance
fuel
registration
insurance
cleaning
etc.
Then you are one of the drooling fools keeping fares low, allowing the TNC to lower fares below cost to the driver to increase market share and force drivers to pay for that ridership increase.

So keep driving if you want, but all that does is increase the duration and severity of the rate cuts. As long as drivers keep driving, fare values will continue to fall. When the TNC can no longer attract drivers, they will raise the fare to make driving more attractive.

No way in hell will a company managed by people like Travis and his greedy friends ever decrease commission before raising fares. These are the kind of people that are accustomed to using _other people's_ money.


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> What is the approach or process you went through to get your UberXL-only account set up in your market? Is it also possible to set up an UberSelect-only account in your market?
> 
> In Cleveland I heard Uber doesn't allow UberXL-only nor UberSelect-only accounts.


I emailed support and asked for a XL only account. It was super easy and fast. I had kindly explained that UberX rates are too low and I can't make money on them, but I'm sure that didn't factor into them helping me. I can now switch between 2 Uber accounts: UberX and UberXL or UberXL only. In Denver you can do Uberselect only


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

Rates in Indianapolis are now 70¢/mile 14¢/minute paying new drivers with a 25% commission 52¢/mile and 10.5¢/min.

Compared to the local taxi rates of $2/mile plus plus plus, taxi rates are near triple TNC rates.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

sicky said:


> I emailed support and asked for a XL only account. It was super easy and fast. I had kindly explained that UberX rates are too low and I can't make money on them, but I'm sure that didn't factor into them helping me. I can now switch between 2 Uber accounts: UberX and UberXL or UberXL only. In Denver you can do Uberselect only


Thanks for your valuable feedback. I think what you told them entered into their decision. Did you ask for the XL-only account right from the outset, or did you drive XL-X combo for awhile before asking for the dedicated XL-only account?

My humble thinking is--if a new driver tells Lyber before starting to drive that they need an XL-only account (or Select-only account) and they won't drive combos due to low rates, given this choice, the QSR has to approve the request to help their bosses make money - because they want more drivers, not less. What do you think of this reasoning?

(Edited a typo.)


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

DieselkW said:


> Rates in Indianapolis are now 70¢/mile 14¢/minute paying new drivers with a 25% commission 52¢/mile and 10.5¢/min.
> 
> Compared to the local taxi rates of $2/mile plus plus plus, taxi rates are near triple TNC rates.
> View attachment 24523


Taxicabs' rates are businessmen's rates. TNCs' current rates are unsustainable, so they will raise them within months (unless certain drivers keep up with their wealth-depleting efforts). Agreed with your prescient business and economic analyses.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

DieselkW said:


> Rates in Indianapolis are now 70¢/mile 14¢/minute paying new drivers with a 25% commission 52¢/mile and 10.5¢/min.
> 
> Compared to the local taxi rates of $2/mile plus plus plus, taxi rates are near triple TNC rates.
> View attachment 24523


While drivers are hanging low in the next few months, there is one thing that drivers can do now and in the next few months that can help both their current and their future earnings.

The reason certain desperate people are still from time to time willing to call the cab or arrange a private ride that costs $300 RT for 30 miles one way is that they are not aware that TNC rides are easy to get--download, set up account, hail. Old school people. "Nobody is willing to wait an hour for me. Vinny has been doing this for me for years!"

I think most people savvy with tech have pretty much signed up. These are smart, price sensitive consumers. We have barely scratched the surface of the lucrative market. Those not yet TNC riders are those that have traditionally been taken advantage of by any marketplace they have been in as consumers. Whether drivers do it out of charity or for drivers' own current and future earnings, a strong case shall be made for drivers to be proactive in doubling their efforts to sign up more riders, focusing on (A) people who don't have much tech savvy with their smartphone (help them do it if neccesary and legal), and to go one step further, (B) to encourage the 20-30% or so of population still on dumb-phones to upgrade to a smartphone followed by (A).


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider, thank-you for those tips...particularly the advice regarding educating consumers on how obtaining a Lyft ride works. To be honest, I had no idea how passengers interact with their Lyft app from start-to-finish. After reading your advice, I went to YouTube and watched this 



 that does a good job of explaining things.

Today, I had a passenger who wanted to change his destination 15 miles from what he originally requested. I couldn't tell him how to do it, because I've never taken the time to learn how the Passenger side of the Lyft app works....but thankfully he figured it out himself. I've watched the mandatory driver orientation videos at the Lyft website, but there's not much there for helping us help our passengers understand how to use the app. Knowing all we can about Lyft from the passenger's perspective will also help us attract new passengers.

Thanks once again ClevelandUberRider for making me seek out Lyft "how to do it" videos this evening. It's not a good feeling when you can't help the passenger accomplish simple tasks....like changing his/her destination while in-route. 
-Allen


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## andaas (May 19, 2015)

AllenChicago said:


> ClevelandUberRider, thank-you for those tips...particularly the advice regarding educating consumers on how obtaining a Lyft ride works. To be honest, I had no idea how passengers interact with their Lyft app from start-to-finish. After reading your advice, I went to YouTube and watched this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've had passengers request a different destination versus what they told Uber or Lyft and we've just not changed the app destination and I updated Google and took them where they wanted to go (or they directed me manually).

My favorite was when I had some passengers with multiple drop-off locations on an Uber surge ride. Uber sent me a second pickup request near the first drop location... of course, lol. Obviously they didn't get me as the second drop was 20 minutes away.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

andaas said:


> I've had passengers request a different destination versus what they told Uber or Lyft and we've just not changed the app destination and I updated Google and took them where they wanted to go (or they directed me manually).


When you don't update the drop-off location, does LYFT still pay correctly? I don't see how.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

AllenChicago said:


> When you don't update the drop-off location, does LYFT still pay correctly? I don't see how.


Just end the trip when it's over. Whether you enter a destination or not doesn't matter on either platform currently.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Just end the trip when it's over. Whether you enter a destination or not doesn't matter on either platform currently.


Thank-you Scrurbscrud. Thanks to the kind members of this forum, I'm learning something new every day!


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

AllenChicago said:


> Thank-you Scrurbscrud. Thanks to the kind members of this forum, I'm learning something new every day!


Hot tip #1. Make sure to hit "arrived" on Lyft and "Start trip" on Uber.

This assures you will be paid when you employ Hot tip #2. End trip.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

I have always trusted the system to charge correctly according to the GPS route taken for time and mileage. 
Without a surge, however, I've noticed that a ride from my neighborhood to the airport has resulted in wildly different charges.

I don't ever "time" the pickup to destination and re-set my trip A/B odometer for any ride, but perhaps I should have been doing just that and keeping notes.

I drive "friends" to the airport, I drive pax to the airport, and quite frequently I'm asked: "How much does Lyber charge from here to the airport?"

Last summer, I would tell people it will be $35-$40 based on the last couple of times I took someone from this approximate area to the airport. A five minute delay will add a dollar, a ten minute delay will add $2, but at 20¢ a minute and a 99% highway ride this fare should be reasonably consistent.

I've seen prices between $32 and $48 for this very common trip from a 5 mile radius of my home. I gotta wonder how much "massaging" is being done, over charging some passengers.

New app users get charged more? New app users get charged less? Frequent customers get charged less because they know better?

Most recent airport run was $48 with a pickup 1 mile towards the airport from my home, so I KNOW this is a $37 charge, I've done it a dozen times.
Pax was using Lyft for the very first time, I know because I helped her download the app and put my promo code in from my passenger seat before we left for the airport. (This is one of those "can your husband take me to the airport, I know he does ride share but I never used it before" rides)

Maybe she paid $9 more because Lyft had to pay me for the promo? I only remember it because she asked, "how much will it be?" I felt comfortable telling her it would be "less than $40" because it always had been, it was very early in the morning on a weekend so there was no traffic.

I don't know... maybe this is the wrong place for this "story", but drivers are catching on fast to the "weirdness" of TNC driving.

Does anyone check their time and mileage against the fare for each trip, or even for common trips? Are we all that trusting, or are we all that lazy?


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

DieselkW said:


> Does anyone check their time and mileage against the fare for each trip, or even for common trips? Are we all that trusting, or are we all that lazy?


Good questions and observations. I check my trips every once in awhile. They're fairly accurate.

Topic has been brought up many times. Most states where cabs are regulated they also have to have meter testing done by state weights and measures. TNC platforms have no oversight in this area that I'm aware of. But, as with TNC's, when cabbies are independent contractors they get desperate for various reasons too, and go off meter/cash.

It's another thing with Lyft. I kinda like Uber's provided tracking map record, which Lyft doesn't provide. It might be in their archives somewhere. I know both companies fiddle around quite a bit with min. fare calcs i.e. the fare seems to rise faster in shorter distance on Uber than with Lyft on std./X rates, at least prior to the last rate cut. I haven't done either since.


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## andaas (May 19, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Topic has been brought up many times. Most states where cabs are regulated they also have to have meter testing done by state weights and measures. TNC platforms have no oversight in this area that I'm aware of. But, as with TNC's, when cabbies are independent contractors they get desperate for various reasons too, and go off meter/cash.


I recall reading something that in California, the TNC's were required to have their systems validated to work for measurements, etc. Maybe I misread or misunderstood, but I think there has been at least some validation done in this regard.

*edit* From a quick search just now...


http://www.cnet.com/news/california-sues-ride-sharing-service-uber-settles-with-rival-lyft/ said:


> Lyft also agreed to let the California Department of Agriculture evaluate the accuracy of its app for calculating ride fares.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

andaas said:


> I recall reading something that in California, the TNC's were required to have their systems validated to work for measurements, etc. Maybe I misread or misunderstood, but I think there has been at least some validation done in this regard.
> 
> *edit* From a quick search just now...


Yeah, I knew it was in question there for awhile. Haven't heard of it anywhere else.


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## Idunno (Nov 1, 2015)

sicky said:


> They can't go up soon enough for me! I was making 6 figures in the oil industry. My experience is extremely specialized and have had a hard time finding employment elsewhere.


Sorry to hear man. What kind of work do you do because production hasn't really slowed down here. If anything it's busier then last winter.


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

Idunno said:


> Sorry to hear man. What kind of work do you do because production hasn't really slowed down here. If anything it's busier then last winter.


I'm a geophysicist. I interpret seismic and well log data and say "drill here". they are producing what was already drilled, but they aren't drilling much right now. Entire geology departments have been cut at many companies.

My bachelor's degree was in engineering, but when I apply for entry level engineering positions they tell me I'm overqualified even though I have no experience. Most companies don't want us oil workers-we made too much money and will likely leave when oil goes back up.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

sicky said:


> I'm a geophysicist. I interpret seismic and well log data and say "drill here". they are producing what was already drilled, but they aren't drilling much right now. Entire geology departments have been cut at many companies.
> 
> My bachelor's degree was in engineering, but when I apply for entry level engineering positions they tell me I'm overqualified even though I have no experience. Most companies don't want us oil workers-we made too much money and will likely leave when oil goes back up.


Until the crude oil prices started dropping about a year ago, for several years the oil boom was making petroleum engineers hot potatoes in the job market. During those years these engineers could make more money by signing short term employment contracts rather than long term ones.


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## ORT (Nov 14, 2015)

sicky said:


> I'm a geophysicist. I interpret seismic and well log data and say "drill here". they are producing what was already drilled, but they aren't drilling much right now. Entire geology departments have been cut at many companies.
> 
> My bachelor's degree was in engineering, but when I apply for entry level engineering positions they tell me I'm overqualified even though I have no experience. Most companies don't want us oil workers-we made too much money and will likely leave when oil goes back up.


Oil won't go back up for quite some time, there is stock piles of it everywhere.


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

I realize that oil is not coming back up any time soon. 

I was hoping to watch my 1 year old during the day and drive Uber and Lyft on weekends until oil went back up, but then discovered how abysmal the pay is. Taking our son out of daycare is saving us $900 per month and watching him grow up is priceless. Sadly, working three 8 hour days (friday, saturday and sunday) is only making me about $350-$400 before my expenses (but after Uber's and Lyft's cuts). After factoring in my expenses including car depreciation, I am making well under minimum wage. I feel that I am trading the value of my vehicle in for cash while I am unemployed, but this is not a sustainable option since it may take years for oil to come back up. 

I just spoke with a couple headhunters in the engineering side of things who said that they have had good luck getting jobs for oil workers. It's unfortunate, because I've really enjoyed watching my son during the day, but Uber's and Lyft's wages are the lowest in country if you don't include farms hiring illegals. Both companies have forever lost me as a rider. I would rather pay for a taxi cab than support either of them.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

sicky said:


> I realize that oil is not coming back up any time soon.
> 
> I was hoping to watch my 1 year old during the day and drive Uber and Lyft on weekends until oil went back up, but then discovered how abysmal the pay is. Taking our son out of daycare is saving us $900 per month and watching him grow up is priceless. Sadly, working three 8 hour days (friday, saturday and sunday) is only making me about $350-$400 before my expenses (but after Uber's and Lyft's cuts). After factoring in my expenses including car depreciation, I am making well under minimum wage. I feel that I am trading the value of my vehicle in for cash while I am unemployed, but this is not a sustainable option since it may take years for oil to come back up.
> 
> I just spoke with a couple headhunters in the engineering side of things who said that they have had good luck getting jobs for oil workers. It's unfortunate, because I've really enjoyed watching my son during the day, but Uber's and Lyft's wages are the lowest in country if you don't include farms hiring illegals. Both companies have forever lost me as a rider. I would rather pay for a taxi cab than support either of them.


Kudos to you for spending priceless quality time with your child! Nothing can beat that. Not a $250K job in the office for an 80-hour week. You will realize this even more in 10-15 years' time.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

sicky said:


> After factoring in my expenses including car depreciation, I am making well under minimum wage. I feel that I am trading the value of my vehicle in for cash while I am unemployed,


You are singing my song sicky - and you came to the same conclusion I did two months ago after knocking my head against a wall of denial for 6 months.

I am literally better off making no income and depleting our savings rather than turning my car into something worthless as a trade in when it comes time to replace it.

At the current driver rates; because the numbers don't lie, we have to pay Uber/Lyft with car equity to pickup and deliver their customers for them.

I can live a couple years on our savings - and I'll make money some other way. 6 months ago when I was seeing $100/day and paying Lyft no commission, I was convinced I was making money, even though I was putting 800 miles a week on the car. Not paying Lyft a commission was like driving a 1.5 Uber surge 100% of the week.

Some day, the maintenance costs of those extra miles will come due like the loan that TNC driving really is.

*It's cash today for tomorrow's costs, and I spent that cash yesterday.*


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

sicky said:


> I realize that oil is not coming back up any time soon.
> 
> I was hoping to watch my 1 year old during the day and drive Uber and Lyft on weekends until oil went back up, but then discovered how abysmal the pay is. Taking our son out of daycare is saving us $900 per month and watching him grow up is priceless. Sadly, working three 8 hour days (friday, saturday and sunday) is only making me about $350-$400 before my expenses (but after Uber's and Lyft's cuts). After factoring in my expenses including car depreciation, I am making well under minimum wage. I feel that I am trading the value of my vehicle in for cash while I am unemployed, but this is not a sustainable option since it may take years for oil to come back up.
> 
> I just spoke with a couple headhunters in the engineering side of things who said that they have had good luck getting jobs for oil workers. It's unfortunate, because I've really enjoyed watching my son during the day, but Uber's and Lyft's wages are the lowest in country if you don't include farms hiring illegals. Both companies have forever lost me as a rider. I would rather pay for a taxi cab than support either of them.


Agree with you and Sicky on oil prices going forward. No one can predict the future, but for a few months out, generally you can be reasonably sure (barring huge global events that disrupt the supply chain either at the oil fields source or pipelines and oil tankers shipping lines being threatened) by looking at the crude oil futures.

America has just recently exported our first oil in decades!

Plus, at these low prices lots of drills are turned off throughout America due to production costs being higher (smaller scale, higher costs per barrel). When oil prices rise to above production costs (say, $35 to $40 per barrel) these guys will turn on the spigot again (just like Uber drivers, see 5.0 surge, turn on their car engine!). Same thing with shale producers. These silent producers/suppliers, though (many are) not producing at the moment, their sheer ready supply to be turned on at a moment's notice, keep an invisible "ceiling" to oil prices.


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## ABC123DEF (Jun 9, 2015)

sicky said:


> I realize that oil is not coming back up any time soon.
> 
> I was hoping to watch my 1 year old during the day and drive Uber and Lyft on weekends until oil went back up, but then discovered how abysmal the pay is. Taking our son out of daycare is saving us $900 per month and watching him grow up is priceless. Sadly, working three 8 hour days (friday, saturday and sunday) is only making me about $350-$400 before my expenses (but after Uber's and Lyft's cuts). After factoring in my expenses including car depreciation, I am making well under minimum wage. I feel that I am trading the value of my vehicle in for cash while I am unemployed, but this is not a sustainable option since it may take years for oil to come back up.
> 
> I just spoke with a couple headhunters in the engineering side of things who said that they have had good luck getting jobs for oil workers. It's unfortunate, because I've really enjoyed watching my son during the day, but Uber's and Lyft's wages are the lowest in country if you don't include farms hiring illegals. Both companies have forever lost me as a rider. I would rather pay for a taxi cab than support either of them.


Well said. Many of us are not in a position to support the local cab companies when we need a ride. However, I will ALWAYS tip $5-10 to a TNC driver driving his/her own car because I know how it is.


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

ABC123DEF said:


> Well said. Many of us are not in a position to support the local cab companies when we need a ride. However, I will ALWAYS tip $5-10 to a TNC driver driving his/her own car because I know how it is.


This is a dilemma for me-I would like to support the drivers and like the ease of calling an uber, but don't want to support the corporation behind it. Maybe I will go your route and always leave a nice tip. I'm certainly not waiting an hour for a cab!


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

sicky said:


> This is a dilemma for me-I would like to support the drivers and like the ease of calling an uber, but don't want to support the corporation behind it. Maybe I will go your route and always leave a nice tip. I'm certainly not waiting an hour for a cab!


If only majority of passengers and drivers have a social pact. Uber cuts rate to like 30 cents per mile, 10 cents per minute. Rider's total fares generally halved. Passengers cough up their entire savings in total fares in cash tips to drivers. Drivers may make more this way due to no commissions to Uber on cash tips.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

sicky said:


> I realize that oil is not coming back up any time soon.
> 
> I was hoping to watch my 1 year old during the day and drive Uber and Lyft on weekends until oil went back up, but then discovered how abysmal the pay is. Taking our son out of daycare is saving us $900 per month and watching him grow up is priceless. Sadly, working three 8 hour days (friday, saturday and sunday) is only making me about $350-$400 before my expenses (but after Uber's and Lyft's cuts). After factoring in my expenses including car depreciation, I am making well under minimum wage. I feel that I am trading the value of my vehicle in for cash while I am unemployed, but this is not a sustainable option since it may take years for oil to come back up.


Keep in mind that being a 1099 contractor also opens the door to a large number of tax deductions. Don't forget to claim your 2015 Lyft/Uber expenses when filing taxes this year.


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## JJ/Uber/Miami (Jun 24, 2015)

AllenChicago said:


> Keep in mind that being a 1099 contractor also opens the door to a large number of tax deductions. Don't forget to claim your 2015 Lyft/Uber expenses when filing taxes this year.


Got my 1099 today from Uber. Made a total of $788 from them in 2015. When my accountant did the calculations for business loss or whatever he said), my refund went from $2162 to $6875. OMG -- can't wait to add my 1099 from Lyft into the mix and see if it goes even higher.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> Got my 1099 today from Uber. Made a total of $788 from them in 2015. When my accountant did the calculations for business loss or whatever he said), my refund went from $2162 to $6875. OMG -- can't wait to add my 1099 from Lyft into the mix and see if it goes even higher.


I went to a Chicago Lyft driver's meeting 2 weeks ago. About 200 attendees. I was astounded by how many didn't know that as 1099 contractors/business owners, we can deduct mileage, depreciation, tires, un-reimbursed tolls, even vacations under certain circumstances. The IRS laws were drafted by business owners (aka Congressional attorneys) a few decades ago, so naturally, they favor business owners. Turbo Tax or HR Block software is a god-send for us in this regard. (Be sure to get the business version). It was a pleasure helping the drivers who had no idea of the benefits that come with Lyft and Uber driving.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> Got my 1099 today from Uber. Made a total of $788 from them in 2015. When my accountant did the calculations for business loss or whatever he said), my refund went from $2162 to $6875. OMG -- can't wait to add my 1099 from Lyft into the mix and see if it goes even higher.


Let me get this straight:

Were you saying that said increase in your tax refund ($4,713) came from your business loss from all the different types of businesses you had in 2015, or was the increase in refund attributable to only the business loss from your Uber driving alone?

Though the amount is not big, it is comparatively large viz a viz your Uber income, for two reasons. I will explain after I can confirm that I got your case right.

(Disclaimer: I am not a tax professional. I am not providing professional tax advice or services here. Please consult and/or engage a tax professional for all your tax matters and services.)


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## UberBlackPr1nce (Dec 28, 2014)

Uber makes for certain that they will continue to make money on minimum fares by raising the safe rider fee. They will never increase pay unless drivers stop driving. They don't care about the cost of gas. If gas prices rise will mean more traffic to uber....


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberBlackPr1nce said:


> Uber makes for certain that they will continue to make money on minimum fares by raising the safe rider fee. They will never increase pay unless drivers stop driving. They don't care about the cost of gas. If gas prices rise will mean more traffic to uber....


UberX and UberXL are no longer profitable without surge.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

driverco said:


> XL is profitable & a fair rate without surge, x is below minimum wage & has never been profitable even while surging unless on long trips


At my hometown it is not. XL is in the low teens.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

driverco said:


> XL is profitable & a fair rate without surge, x is below minimum wage & has never been profitable even while surging unless on long trips


Many drivers encounter one dead head mile for each paid mile.

So, to make TNC driving work, rates have to be in the high teens or $2.00, if not above.


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## JJ/Uber/Miami (Jun 24, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Let me get this straight:
> 
> Were you saying that said increase in your tax refund ($4,713) came from your business loss from all the different types of businesses you had in 2015, or was the increase in refund attributable to only the business loss from your Uber driving alone?
> 
> ...


Yes. I have my regular job that I made $43,282, plus 2 dependents. I also drove for Uber ($788) and Lyft ($211). That is the extent of my income for 2015.[/QUOTE]


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

driverco said:


> XL is profitable & a fair rate without surge, x is below minimum wage & has never been profitable even while surging unless on long trips


There is a reason why cabs charge that or higher.

High teens or $2.00 per mile seems to be the minimum survival threshold.

To provide for at or above minimum wage income and middle class lifestyle.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

driverco said:


> XL is profitable & a fair rate without surge, x is below minimum wage & has never been profitable even while surging unless on long trips


Anything below that, TNCs will have to rely on unconventional sources of drivers...

Drivers on welfare.

Drivers using their parents' cars screwing their parents while lining their own pockets.

DT office farmers seeking gas money before heading home.

Bored office workers or businessmen and businesswomen taking a spin to chill.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> Yes. I have my regular job that I made $43,282, plus 2 dependents. I also drove for Uber ($788) and Lyft ($211). That is the extent of my income for 2015.


[/QUOTE]

Congratulations on having a steady FT job!

Your job is perfect for PT TNC driving. Keep an eye out for surges or drive Select, SUV.

Even on the UberX and Lyft platforms, or UberXL and LyftPlus platforms, every now and then, riders' demand causes surges and on those days you can make $20 to $40 per hour after car expenses. A good way to earn something on the side to supplement your income.

On taxes, see next post.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> Got my 1099 today from Uber. Made a total of $788 from them in 2015. When my accountant did the calculations for business loss or whatever he said), my refund went from $2162 to $6875. OMG -- can't wait to add my 1099 from Lyft into the mix and see if it goes even higher.


Doing this business for tax losses is, well, a loser.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> Yes. I have my regular job that I made $43,282, plus 2 dependents. I also drove for Uber ($788) and Lyft ($211). That is the extent of my income for 2015.


With the increase in tax refund, $4,713...

(A) you must have claimed business deductions to the tune of more than $18,000? (Assuming a 25% tax rate);

(B) If so, these TNC-driving-related business expenses seem to be quite out of whack with the revenue side (slightly under $1,000 in total).

Comments and feedback please, JJ.



scrurbscrud said:


> Doing this business for tax losses is, well, a loser.


At least those (medical) doctors and dentists funding B-movies as tax loss shelters get to dine and wine with B movie actors and actresses.


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## JJ/Uber/Miami (Jun 24, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Doing this business for tax losses is, well, a loser.


What do you mean? I did NOT get into driving for any reason other than to supplement my regular income. I had no idea at the time how it affected me as far as taxes were concerned.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Doing this business for tax losses is, well, a loser.


One wise man once commented, with the offshore tax loss schemes, a rich man will become poor very soon.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> At least those (medical) doctors and dentists funding B-movies as tax loss shelters get to dine and wine with B movie actors and actresses.


The thing is with this gig, there are real risks that are attached to doing it. That little tax loss can turn into a big tax loss with an accident, an adverse incident with a pax or any number of other "things" that can go wrong.

There are real risks that have to be reconciled with the pay. When there is no pay to take any risk is just stupid.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Doing this business for tax losses is, well, a loser.


The problem with not so smart wealthy people seeking tax-loss schemes to minimize their taxes (and why very smart wealthy people don't do that) is that, in seeking tax loss schemes to minimize your income, the goal is, the more proportional losses the better (a more efficient tax shelter), and pursue this long enough, pretty soon, one forgets why she or he is pursuing this in the first place.

(Edited a typo.)



scrurbscrud said:


> Doing this business for tax losses is, well, a loser.


Wise men in business say...
Better to focus one'e energy on profitable ventures.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> The problem with not so smart wealthy people seeking tax-loss schemes to minimize their taxes (and why very smart wealthy people don't do that) is that, in seeking tax loss schemes to minimize your income, the goal is, the more proportional losses the better (a more efficient tax shelter), and pursue this long enough, pretty soon, one forgets why she or she is pursuing this in the first place.


Yeah, I learned the same lesson "day trading." Learned the best form of day trading is not to play.  There are bigger crooks in the game than I realized. And that was 20 years ago.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> What do you mean? I did NOT get into driving for any reason other than to supplement my regular income. I had no idea at the time how it affected me as far as taxes were concerned.


I think he meant in general, referring to tax loss schemes, as I do here. I am not referring to your case. I knew and I know you didn't go into this gig with tax loss in mind, as evidenced by the fact that with such a proportionally huge tax loss, you still bailed.

Your tax loss numbers are so enticing, that, if these numbers bear out and are legit, medical doctors and dentists (and businessmen and others) will get into this line, hiring former Uber and Lyft drivers to drive for their TNC firms. They don't need fancy billion dollar apps, they just need tax losses.

But I highly doubt that these numbers are allowable by the IRS in an audit.

(Edited a typo.)


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> The thing is with this gig, there are real risks that are attached to doing it. That little tax loss can turn into a big tax loss with an accident, an adverse incident with a pax or any number of other "things" that can go wrong.
> 
> There are real risks that have to be reconciled with the pay. When there is no pay to take any risk is just stupid.


Did you see her tax loss numbers?


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Yeah, I learned the same lesson "day trading." Learned the best form of day trading is not to play. There are bigger crooks in the game than I realized. And that was 20 years ago.


Yeah, I forgot about that.

Some (operative word here) multilevel marketing firms can screw poor and unwise people as long as they can cough up several hundred dollars a month from their other jobs or welfare checks.

While...

(See next post)


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Did you see her tax loss numbers?


eeeya.

I really really doubt the gubernment is going to allow millions of Uber/Lyft drivers to empty the public tax coffers for too long. They will slam that door shut, guaranteed. JUST LIKE the government stepped in an limited tax losses on trading to $3000 a year. The year I quit doing it.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Yeah, I forgot about that.
> 
> Some (operative word here) multilevel marketing firms can screw poor and unwise people as long as they can cough up several hundred dollars a month from their other jobs or welfare checks.
> 
> ...


Kinda like AMWAY. Remember when everybody and their neighbors were pimping Amway? Good grief I got so sick of being pitched by these people.

"Uh, NO, you are not going to "MAKE" any money and neither am I so get outta my face with it please."


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Yeah, I learned the same lesson "day trading." Learned the best form of day trading is not to play. There are bigger crooks in the game than I realized. And that was 20 years ago.


(Continued from my previous post)

While...

Some (operative word here) day-trading companies can screw unwise poor people with five or ten thousand dollars upfront.

Schemes to screw unwise rich and poor people never end. They just appear in different reincarnations at different times.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Yeah, I learned the same lesson "day trading." Learned the best form of day trading is not to play. There are bigger crooks in the game than I realized. And that was 20 years ago.


You may have paid your "tuition" 20 years ago. Last time I checked, it was still going on.

Same schemes, different victims.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

I know this biz is nearing it's frenzy. Last weekend, well, for the last couple of weekends and this weekend I'm doing football. Sorry. I ain't wasting my football time pissing away behind the wheel TNC driving for nothing. 

But anyway I did a football gathering last weekend with about 30 other friends. None of which know I do the TNC thing. I wouldn't tell my friends what I do. Not when it's this stupid.

Anyway, one of my friends who was a national corp. executive making a very large 6 figure income was doing LYFT for god's sake. I'm like, "what the WTF?!" 

I didn't say a word.


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## JJ/Uber/Miami (Jun 24, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I think he meant in general, referring to tax loss schemes, as I do here. I am not referring to your case. I knew and I know you didn't go into this gig with tax loss in mind, as evidenced by the fact that with such a proportionally huge tax loss, you still bailed.
> 
> Your tax loss numbers are so enticing, that, if these numbers bear out and are legit, medical doctors and dentists (and businessmen and others) will get into this line, hiring former Uber and Lyft drivers to drive for their TNC firms. They don't need fancy billion dollar apps, they just need tax losses.
> 
> But I highly doubts that these numbers are allowable by the IRS in an audit.


I honestly have no idea. I've been working since the age of 18 and have never been audited. The accountant doing my taxes goes to my church and does work for the IRS, in fact. If he is wrong, I guess the government will not accept the return and notify me. However, I can't question his expertise, as I have no knowledge of accounting or tax laws myself. This is a wait and see game I guess.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> eeeya.
> 
> I really really doubt the gubernment is going to allow millions of Uber/Lyft drivers to empty the public tax coffers for too long. They will slam that door shut, guaranteed. JUST LIKE the government stepped in an limited tax losses on trading to $3000 a year. The year I quit doing it.


You never know.

Case in point....
Michael Dell, founder of Dell Computers...
He saw the tax-efficient cra* Internet firms were pulling years ago...
Free gourmet food prepared on site by renowned chefs (most second tier and down chefs who are marketable but have no star power or funds to open their own restaurants head to these firms with their high pay)...
Different floors, even different corners of the same floors serve different themes...
Free hair-dressing...massages...spa...
Free car wash...detailing...
Free personal shoppers...free errand boys...
Free dry cleaning...
And on and on.

Business expenses for the Internet firms...reduce income....yet...
Employees do not report such varied beautiful cra* on their individual tax returns as benefits received!
...in other words, a huge "hole" on a huge part that The Treasury and American public are losing out on...
....to be continued
(See my next post)

(Edited a typo. Also added the last line of text for clarity of topic discussions.)


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

FreeCreditReport.com

*FreeTaxiDriver.com might not get too many driver signups. *But that is what they should call it, truthfully.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> eeeya.
> 
> I really really doubt the gubernment is going to allow millions of Uber/Lyft drivers to empty the public tax coffers for too long. They will slam that door shut, guaranteed. JUST LIKE the government stepped in an limited tax losses on trading to $3000 a year. The year I quit doing it.


(Continued from last post)

...so Mr. Michael Dell saw all these...
He told either Sergey or David Filo....
...wait a minute, you can't do this...
...the IRS will catch up with you soon enough...
And disallow that.
More than ten years later, these Internet firms are not only still doing it...
They are doing it more...
And more Internet firms are joining the fray....
Also see next post....

(Edit: For clarity: Sergey Brin, one of the two founders of Google. David Filo, one of the two founders of Yahoo.)


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> eeeya.
> 
> I really really doubt the gubernment is going to allow millions of Uber/Lyft drivers to empty the public tax coffers for too long. They will slam that door shut, guaranteed. JUST LIKE the government stepped in an limited tax losses on trading to $3000 a year. The year I quit doing it.


If a mom and pop firm starts pulling that stunt, they may or may not be in trouble.



scrurbscrud said:


> I know this biz is nearing it's frenzy. Last weekend, well, for the last couple of weekends and this weekend I'm doing football. Sorry. I ain't wasting my football time pissing away behind the wheel TNC driving for nothing.
> 
> But anyway I did a football gathering last weekend with about 30 other friends. None of which know I do the TNC thing. I wouldn't tell my friends what I do. Not when it's this stupid.
> 
> ...


Did he (that Lyft PT driver):

A. Think it was a cool thing to mention (party conversation starter);
B. Think it is really a good, income-generating gig; or
C. Think he should use it as a tax loss scheme?


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Did he (that Lyft PT driver):
> 
> A. Think it was a cool thing to mention (party conversation starter);
> 
> ...


A. It actually came out from a private conversation with someone else there that shared it with me. So I brought it up. "Hey, heard you're doing the Lyft thing. How's it going?" (as if I was clueless.) First response? "There is no money in it, that's for sure."

Just started doing it. Plus and Lyft std. no less and after the last price cut. First weekend I think. Already realized it was a bigggggg loooooser. So, kudo's on that. I expect it will be a short run. Real short. I doubt it will be talked about a month from now as the part time career will be very very much over. It's one of those deals where a large percentage of the population might actually try it, and then done. Just like Amway. Only worse.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> I know this biz is nearing it's frenzy. Last weekend, well, for the last couple of weekends and this weekend I'm doing football. Sorry. I ain't wasting my football time pissing away behind the wheel TNC driving for nothing.
> 
> But anyway I did a football gathering last weekend with about 30 other friends. None of which know I do the TNC thing. I wouldn't tell my friends what I do. Not when it's this stupid.
> 
> ...


In 1929, shortly before the great stock market crash (which preceded The Great Depression)...

A famous Wall Strret financier (who, like every men and women with extra money to invest during the 1920s, was up to his nose loaded up with stocks)...
Was on Wall Street having his shoes shone by the shoe shine boy...
While shining the Wall Street mogul's shoes, the boy looked up to the mogul...
With excited, starry, $$$ signs in his eyes, shoe shine boy said...
Sir, I just bought XYZ at this price, it is sure to go up like crazy, have you bought in too?
Upon hearing this, Wall Street mogul immediately dropped his Wall Street Joirnal...
Paid the boy, rushed out to the nearest pay phone booth...
Called his men with this urgent order: Sell all my shares!!!

(Edited a typo.)


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Uh, yeah. When the population is running one way I'm usually looking for the exit myself. This gig paid me for about 2 months. One month with Uber and one with Lyft. The bloom has left the rose.


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## UberBlackPr1nce (Dec 28, 2014)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> What do you mean? I did NOT get into driving for any reason other than to supplement my regular income. I had no idea at the time how it affected me as far as taxes were concerned.


Don't be to hard on yourself. A lot of people didn't do any research before they got involved with uber.
Most just took keys and turned on ignition. Some of the guys don't even know what rate they drive at or when pay day is lol


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> I know this biz is nearing it's frenzy. Last weekend, well, for the last couple of weekends and this weekend I'm doing football. Sorry. I ain't wasting my football time pissing away behind the wheel TNC driving for nothing.
> 
> But anyway I did a football gathering last weekend with about 30 other friends. None of which know I do the TNC thing. I wouldn't tell my friends what I do. Not when it's this stupid.
> 
> ...


This circa 2016 version of the story is...
A covert operative Uber/Lyft driver at a party...
An ABC Corporation AVP says...
I am making $600K plus bonus...
I like to supplement my income doing something lucrative on the side...
Like...
Just yesterday...
I signed up for Lyft driving.
I haven't actually started driving yet, but I heard the income is pretty good. We'll see.
Covert Lyft/Uber driver: "Excuse me."

Email to Uber, cc: Lyft. "Please Deactivate Me!"

(Edited a typo.)


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

UberBlackPr1nce said:


> Don't be to hard on yourself. A lot of people didn't do any research before they got involved with uber.
> Most just took keys and turned on ignition. Some of the guys don't even know what rate they drive at or when pay day is lol


I should have figured it out much sooner. From the time I sent in my stuff to the time I was approved there was already a 15% pay cut. I had penciled out the numbers at the higher rate and thought it might work. At the rate they approved me, I already knew it was a looser, but since I was approved, heck give it a wing. That was about 35% higher ago.


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## JJ/Uber/Miami (Jun 24, 2015)

UberBlackPr1nce said:


> Don't be to hard on yourself. A lot of people didn't do any research before they got involved with uber.
> Most just took keys and turned on ignition. Some of the guys don't even know what rate they drive at or when pay day is lol


Thanks Black. Since I drive a 2014 Corolla, I figured out after a couple of months that the Uber gig was not worth it after I had to BORROW money to put gas in my car to do Uber. Emailed Uber to deactivate me and haven't been back on the road since June 2015. If that 3 months of torture nets me a huge tax deduction, great. All us drivers, present and former, deserve it.

I bought my car brand new in June 2014 and only put 2500 miles on it the first 6 months. When I started driving for Uber I put nearly 9,000 miles on my vehicle in 3 months and made a grand total of $788. I did not factor in my dead miles, which were HUGE, as I drove sometimes 23 minutes away just to pick up someone in an area with heavy tolls (don't yell at me, I was a newbie AND stupid). God knows how much money I lost. Let's not even go into the discussion of being vulnerable because of questionable insurance issues. Uber?? NEVER AGAIN !!!!!


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> I honestly have no idea. I've been working since the age of 18 and have never been audited. The accountant doing my taxes goes to my church and does work for the IRS, in fact. If he is wrong, I guess the government will not accept the return and notify me. However, I can't question his expertise, as I have no knowledge of accounting or tax laws myself. This is a wait and see game I guess.


(Disclaimer: I am not a paid tax professional. I am not providing any tax advice or service here in this thread. For tax advice and services please engage a competent tax professional such as a tax attorney or a CPA.)

JJ, that is called playing the audit chance game. And statistically you will win!

The audit rate is very low for individuals and married couples with AGI of less than $250,000 a year. For those making $50,000 or less, statistically the probability is so small that it is next to almost never that it would happen (that's why most TNC drivers who don't keep their business related spending receipts will almost never run into problems). Human intervention (audit) costs money, and audits make more sense when it can recover some, if not all, of that cost, which makes for auditing large companies, mom and pop businesses with significant incomes or tax recovery potential, high income individuals etc. more justified. Politically too...the last thing we as voters want to see happening is the govt going after the small guys. (IRS audits on large companies sometimes can pay back audit costs many times over, according to news reports.)

But, with technology and computers, it costs the IRS almost nothing to pick up on audit flags. Which I am afraid yours will.

Think about it...You drove for Lyft and Uber in 2015...your revenue was about $1,000...and you claimed that in that same year...the expenses you incurred for driving for Uber and Lyft to earn that $1,000 revenue was more than $18,000...which resulted in about $5,000 in additional tax refunds....spending about $18,000 to bring in about $1,000 in income...don't you think the IRS' computer programmers would have coded in an algorithm that will flag this kind of highly unusual high-expense-to-revenue ratios cases?

I am writing my posts here as a friendly feedback. I don't want you to be unprepared of this.

(Since you didn't confirm on some of the numbers, I used my bestimates.)

(Edited a typo. Also added in for clarity a conclusion from news reports.)


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> A. It actually came out from a private conversation with someone else there that shared it with me. So I brought it up. "Hey, heard you're doing the Lyft thing. How's it going?" (as if I was clueless.) First response? "There is no money in it, that's for sure."
> 
> Just started doing it. Plus and Lyft std. no less and after the last price cut. First weekend I think. Already realized it was a bigggggg loooooser. So, kudo's on that. I expect it will be a short run. Real short. I doubt it will be talked about a month from now as the part time career will be very very much over. It's one of those deals where a large percentage of the population might actually try it, and then done. Just like Amway. Only worse.


I do no own any shares in Amway, but Amway is peculiar in two ways...
It is one of the most popular ones, which probably explains your encounter with its agents or whatever they call their sales men and women...
And it is one of the best run...
With one of the best business models...
Among all the MLM firms...
In my mind Amway has a lot more staying power (long term sustainable) than a lot of other fly by night MLM firms.


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## UberBlackPr1nce (Dec 28, 2014)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> Thanks Black. Since I drive a 2014 Corolla, I figured out after a couple of months that the Uber gig was not worth it after I had to BORROW money to put gas in my car to do Uber. Emailed Uber to deactivate me and haven't been back on the road since June 2015. If that 3 months of torture nets me a huge tax deduction, great. All us drivers, present and former, deserve it.
> 
> I bought my car brand new in June 2014 and only put 2500 miles on it the first 6 months. When I started driving for Uber I put nearly 9,000 miles on my vehicle in 3 months and made a grand total of $788. I did not factor in my dead miles, which were HUGE, as I drove sometimes 23 minutes away just to pick up someone in an area with heavy tolls (don't yell at me, I was a newbie AND stupid). God knows how much money I lost. Let's not even go into the discussion of being vulnerable because of questionable insurance issues. Uber?? NEVER AGAIN !!!!!


Uber is a huge pyramid scheme and only uber is going to get rich. It takes smart reasonable drivers to understand this (sadly, after a few months time though) new drivers look at the now rather than the later...


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> In my mind Amway has a lot more staying power (long term sustainable) than a lot of other fly by night MLM firms.


I earned a good bit of money in the sales force. *One of those lessons is that each sale/close has to pay well for the time you put into it. *And if this isn't the case, the average better do the same thing. If not, it's not going to work out.

*DING!*


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> Thanks Black. Since I drive a 2014 Corolla, I figured out after a couple of months that the Uber gig was not worth it after I had to BORROW money to put gas in my car to do Uber. Emailed Uber to deactivate me and haven't been back on the road since June 2015. If that 3 months of torture nets me a huge tax deduction, great. All us drivers, present and former, deserve it.
> 
> I bought my car brand new in June 2014 and only put 2500 miles on it the first 6 months. When I started driving for Uber I put nearly 9,000 miles on my vehicle in 3 months and made a grand total of $788. I did not factor in my dead miles, which were HUGE, as I drove sometimes 23 minutes away just to pick up someone in an area with heavy tolls (don't yell at me, I was a newbie AND stupid). God knows how much money I lost. Let's not even go into the discussion of being vulnerable because of questionable insurance issues. Uber?? NEVER AGAIN !!!!!


Thanks for more details.

The 9,000 miles to earn the $788. That 9,000 miles "did not factor in my dead miles"? I guess my question is: Were the 9,000 miles all paid miles, or "paid miles + deadhead miles"?
If the 9,000 miles were just paid miles, what were the total TNC-related business miles (i.e., paid plus deadhead miles, combined)?


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## JJ/Uber/Miami (Jun 24, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> (Disclaimer: I am not a paid tax professional. I am not providing any tax advice or service here in this thread. For tax advice and services please engage a competent tax professional such as a tax attorney or a CPA.)
> 
> JJ, that is called playing the audit chance game. And statistically you will win!
> 
> ...


Thanks Cleve. I'm not exactly sure what amount he is declaring my business losses to be, so I can't confirm the $18,000. However, I will show him your post and see what he says. I don't want him or me to get into trouble. I have always been honest with my taxes and always will be.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Thanks for more details.
> 
> The 9,000 miles to earn the $788. That 9,000 miles "did not factor in my dead miles"?
> 
> ...


Imagine the tax breaks if there was an honest tax declaration with all dead miles?

Tax accountant probably said don't push it or you'll get audited for sure.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> I have always been honest with my taxes and always will be.


MEEE TOOO! 

And I'll be damned if I EVER take a cash tip. No way.


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## JJ/Uber/Miami (Jun 24, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Thanks for more details.
> 
> The 9,000 miles to earn the $788. That 9,000 miles "did not factor in my dead miles"?
> 
> ...


That 9000 miles was mostly dead miles, on the way to pick up pax, then dead miles back. 90% of people I picked up were minimum fares for 3 miles at the most. The longest fare I ever had was 50 miles from a suburb in Miami called Homestead to the Ft. Lauderdale Airport. I went 14 miles to pick her up on the toll FL Turnpike, 50 miles to her destination, and 50+ dead miles back. Total fare was $81.39 before Uber's cut.

That is where I went wrong in this venture--picking people up from 10, 15, 20+ miles away and taking them up the street or around the corner. Burns me up now to think about it on my new vehicle, but you live and learn. Uber Off !!!


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## JJ/Uber/Miami (Jun 24, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> MEEE TOOO!
> 
> And I'll be damned if I EVER take a cash tip. No way.


When I drove for Uber I will be honest and say I did take cash tips when offered. The people were pretty nice, and I appreciated the gesture. But no more.


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## USArmy31B30 (Oct 30, 2015)

Lyft do have a limit on the drivers they can activate, so if you want to protest? you can! Quit turning your app on and do one ride per month until the rates is acceptable in your opinion... 

After their rate cut I was in the hibernation mode and I was only doing 1-2 trips per week to keep my account active. Then last week they sent me an email about a $20 (GI) hourly guarantee which I thought wasn't a bad deal, then they kick me in the nuts for changing the power bonus from hours worked to trips per week and only applies for Lyfters with a 2011 and newer vehicles. Why is it my fault that people bought newer cars to do this gig? Now I'm out for the power bonus?!


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> That 9000 miles was mostly dead miles, on the way to pick up pax, then dead miles back. 90% of people I picked up were minimum fares for 3 miles at the most. The longest fare I ever had was 50 miles from a suburb in Miami called Homestead to the Ft. Lauderdale Airport. I went 14 miles to pick her up on the toll FL Turnpike, 50 miles to her destination, and 50+ dead miles back. Total fare was $81.39 before Uber's cut.
> 
> That is where I went wrong in this venture--picking people up from 10, 15, 20+ miles away and taking them up the street or around the corner. Burns me up now to think about it on my new vehicle, but you live and learn. Uber Off !!!


I think I did that like, maybe one time. And it was only for like 6 miles, on my way home from the first night driving. Drove the clown pax about 1/2 a mile. One of them smart bastards even had the gall to laugh about it. Last time I ever did it again. From that point on and to this day, any fare over 5 min. or 3 miles away I call to see where they are going. I'll be damned if I'll service people for nothing. Particularly if they are going to laugh about it. I'd laugh at such stupidity too.

Gee, I wonder if a pax would take advantage of me? Would they? Really?

Please. I'm not saying people are generally stupid. But with some people it just takes longer. It may be only 1 fare or it may be 30 fares, but everyone wises up to the game sooner or later.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> When I drove for Uber I will be honest and say I did take cash tips when offered. The people were pretty nice, and I appreciated the gesture. But no more.


I was speaking of the tax man. Not reality.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberBlackPr1nce said:


> Uber is a huge pyramid scheme and only uber is going to get rich. It takes smart reasonable drivers to understand this (sadly, after a few months time though) new drivers look at the now rather than the later...


The TNC market is fluid. Also, every day out there in the cold (soon, hot sun!!) supply and demand forces rule. Riders decide on the demand. YOU the drivers decide on the supply. It may be very difficult and at times seems impossible, but you can still make it work.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> Imagine the tax breaks if there was an honest tax declaration with all dead miles?
> 
> Tax accountant probably said don't push it or you'll get audited for sure.


There are signs in her posts that her paid tax preparer maybe going the other way...

The economy is soft right now as far as tax preps work is concerned...what with the national chains of cheap tax preps (can you believe they prepare simple return for $35 to $50 a pop?! If I were a tax preparer, I would gladly drive the dreaded and impossible UberX 20 min fare trips than to prepare a simple tax return for a client. Less hassle and potential complications) and increasingly, computer software self-filing.

So, it is only understandable that some (JJ's accountant, I am not talking about you, Sir, as from her posts you seem to be a solid guy with good value) tax preparers will (have to? forced to by the competitive market forces in their profession?) choose to go the unnamed national network of tax prep companies, namely, to file for clients as big a potential tax refund check as possible => bigger refund checks arrive => happier clients => repeat business.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> That 9000 miles was mostly dead miles, on the way to pick up pax, then dead miles back. 90% of people I picked up were minimum fares for 3 miles at the most. The longest fare I ever had was 50 miles from a suburb in Miami called Homestead to the Ft. Lauderdale Airport. I went 14 miles to pick her up on the toll FL Turnpike, 50 miles to her destination, and 50+ dead miles back. Total fare was $81.39 before Uber's cut.
> 
> That is where I went wrong in this venture--picking people up from 10, 15, 20+ miles away and taking them up the street or around the corner. Burns me up now to think about it on my new vehicle, but you live and learn. Uber Off !!!


See, when a TNC driver drives 30 miles to pick someone up for a 30 mile trip, then drives 30 miles back. That may be borderline okay. Two dead miles to each paid mile.

But if a driver drives 30 miles to pick someone up for a 3 mile trip, then drives 30 miles home, that may very likely throw off a red flag. Because that's 20 deadhead miles for every one paid mile.

However, you have a strong case on your side though. That is, you genuinely didn't know how crappy this business was, until several weeks of driving and the costs hit you in the head and...this is very important...you QUIT!

Now if you had continued for months doing that, that will be a different matter.

(See my next post.)


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Some not so smart wealthy people think they are being smart when they use tax shelters. Some otherwise very reputable financial firms are selling those deals even calling then or implying tax shelters. Their lawyers (of course) say it is legal, legit, no problem, we have been doing this for years, if you are rich you've got to protect your assets and earnings...blah blah blah. 

They forget, tax laws are man made, and they do change.

One just have to think of the spirit of the law. If it is against the spirit of the law, even though it may still be legal now (because society follows the letter of the law), lawmakers will catch up with it soon by changing the laws to make them more relevant.

It is clear that those people buy into tax shelters not to make money from the ventures, but to avoid taxes. That, no matter how legal, is against the spirit of tax laws. Going into a venture that one is expecting cintinual losses is very questionable as it relates to the whole idea behind taxing income. Countries around the world have started cracking down on these, which is a very good thing.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

USArmy31B30 said:


> Lyft do have a limit on the drivers they can activate, so if you want to protest? you can! Quit turning your app on and do one ride per month until the rates is acceptable in your opinion...
> 
> After their rate cut I was in the hibernation mode and I was only doing 1-2 trips per week to keep my account active. Then last week they sent me an email about a $20 (GI) hourly guarantee which I thought wasn't a bad deal, then they kick me in the nuts for changing the power bonus from hours worked to trips per week and only applies for Lyfters with a 2011 and newer vehicles. Why is it my fault that people bought newer cars to do this gig? Now I'm out for the power bonus?!


What's the Las Vegas PDB new requirements for number of trips and hours?


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## JJ/Uber/Miami (Jun 24, 2015)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> See, when a TNC driver drives 30 miles to pick someone up for a 30 mile trip, then drives 30 miles back. That may be borderline okay. Two dead miles to each paid mile.
> 
> But if a driver drives 30 miles to pick someone up for a 3 mile trip, then drives 30 miles home, that may very likely throw off a red flag. Because that's 20 deadhead miles for every one paid mile.
> 
> ...


I honestly didn't realize what I was doing to my car, and did not understand that I was LOSING money until I came across this forum. Then I learned how to really calculate expenses, but too little too late. The damage was already done, so I just left it alone.

Another issue that really angered me was insurance. I was under the impression that Uber required drivers to have personal insurance because that is what covered us in case of accidents. My question is why bother making sure drivers have personal auto if the business of driving passengers in personal vehicles for fees is considered illegal??

I have learned a valuable lesson and been thoroughly educated thanks to everyone on this forum. No more Uber/Lyft for me. I'll just make due with my regular 9 to 5 until a find another part time gig.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

scrurbscrud said:


> I think I did that like, maybe one time. And it was only for like 6 miles, on my way home from the first night driving. Drove the clown pax about 1/2 a mile. One of them smart bastards even had the gall to laugh about it. Last time I ever did it again. From that point on and to this day, any fare over 5 min. or 3 miles away I call to see where they are going. I'll be damned if I'll service people for nothing. Particularly if they are going to laugh about it. I'd laugh at such stupidity too.
> 
> Gee, I wonder if a pax would take advantage of me? Would they? Really?
> 
> Please. I'm not saying people are generally stupid. But with some people it just takes longer. It may be only 1 fare or it may be 30 fares, but everyone wises up to the game sooner or later.


I think passengers who hail a TNC ride then ride for a mile or less, see driver's stressful face and laugh about it is pure rude, cruel, and evil.



JJ/Uber/Miami said:


> I honestly didn't realize what I was doing to my car, and did not understand that I was LOSING money until I came across this forum. Then I learned how to really calculate expenses, but too little too late. The damage was already done, so I just left it alone.
> 
> Another issue that really angered me was insurance. I was under the impression that Uber required drivers to have personal insurance because that is what covered us in case of accidents. My question is why bother making sure drivers have personal auto if the business of driving passengers in personal vehicles for fees is considered illegal??
> 
> I have learned a valuable lesson and been thoroughly educated thanks to everyone on this forum. No more Uber/Lyft for me. I'll just make due with my regular 9 to 5 until a find another part time gig.


For current and future TNC drivers UP forum is a godsend. Lots of useful information, sharing of experience and insights here. One just have to sift through the information, separating the useful from the not-so-useful ones.


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## KekeLo (Aug 26, 2015)

DieselkW said:


> What goes up goes down and vice versa. Markets demand change and if you're a company refusing to change in response to the market, you're not going to be in business very long.
> 
> The TNC business lowers fares to attract riders to the platform in an attempt to gain market share. If you really think they will "never" raise fare prices to increase profits once they have saturated rider membership you don't know how to run a business.
> 
> ...


Very Good!!!


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> This circa 2016 version of the story is...
> A covert operative Uber/Lyft driver at a party...
> An ABC Corporation AVP says...
> I am making $600K plus bonus...
> ...


Wow you got edited by a moderator?


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