# Just got back from my State Farm agent



## nikb

He gave me a call, cause I have several policies with them, and had to take my one car off when I started rideshare driving. We talked for a bit a while back about how he was hoping State Farm would give some options for drivers. He called me today to tell me that an internal memo was sent out last week saying that as long as livery wasn't the main use of the vehicle (as in, as long as less than 50% of your miles are used for ridesharing) State Farm has decided that using a car for ridesharing as a secondary activity is not grounds for cancellation or denial of coverage as long as any filed claims do not involve the rideshare activity at the time of incident, in which case, the Uber or Lyft insurance would cover. 

I went in to talk to him, and read the memo myself (though he was unable to give me a copy, since it was internal.) 

Any State Farm customers driving part-time would be well advised to call their agent, and check with them, don't just trust me. But I'm definitely switching back. I'm not thrilled with the whole dealing with James River thing if an accident happens, but I'm sure glad to know that I won't be dropped and the $200 I'll be saving every month now that I'm dropping my commercial coverage is just gonna go into my savings, just in case.


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## Wordwhiz

Did the memo indicate if this will be happening in all states? Or just PA?


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## nikb

Company wide


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## Wordwhiz

That's great. Is the policy much more expensive?


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## Huberis

nikb said:


> He gave me a call, cause I have several policies with them, and had to take my one car off when I started rideshare driving. We talked for a bit a while back about how he was hoping State Farm would give some options for drivers. He called me today to tell me that an internal memo was sent out last week saying that as long as livery wasn't the main use of the vehicle (as in, as long as less than 50% of your miles are used for ridesharing) State Farm has decided that using a car for ridesharing as a secondary activity is not grounds for cancellation or denial of coverage as long as any filed claims do not involve the rideshare activity at the time of incident, in which case, the Uber or Lyft insurance would cover.
> 
> I went in to talk to him, and read the memo myself (though he was unable to give me a copy, since it was internal.)
> 
> Any State Farm customers driving part-time would be well advised to call their agent, and check with them, don't just trust me. But I'm definitely switching back. I'm not thrilled with the whole dealing with James River thing if an accident happens, but I'm sure glad to know that I won't be dropped and the $200 I'll be saving every month now that I'm dropping my commercial coverage is just gonna go into my savings, just in case.


A step forward...... You are still at the mercy of James River to come through and fix your car or go to bat for you. In certain circumstances, JR will cover damages to your car, but that coverage is contingent to having valid personal insurance. This would satisfy James River for them to go to bat and cover your damages?

This strikes me as simpler than Metro Mile. Will you need to somehow prove that you were not logged in at the time of the accident and would you need to provide milage?

Last question: Rideshare mileage can't be more than 50% of total mileage. In my taxi, I drive more in one shift than I do all week in my personal car. What then?


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## Fuzzyelvis

nikb said:


> He gave me a call, cause I have several policies with them, and had to take my one car off when I started rideshare driving. We talked for a bit a while back about how he was hoping State Farm would give some options for drivers. He called me today to tell me that an internal memo was sent out last week saying that as long as livery wasn't the main use of the vehicle (as in, as long as less than 50% of your miles are used for ridesharing) State Farm has decided that using a car for ridesharing as a secondary activity is not grounds for cancellation or denial of coverage as long as any filed claims do not involve the rideshare activity at the time of incident, in which case, the Uber or Lyft insurance would cover.
> 
> I went in to talk to him, and read the memo myself (though he was unable to give me a copy, since it was internal.)
> 
> Any State Farm customers driving part-time would be well advised to call their agent, and check with them, don't just trust me. But I'm definitely switching back. I'm not thrilled with the whole dealing with James River thing if an accident happens, but I'm sure glad to know that I won't be dropped and the $200 I'll be saving every month now that I'm dropping my commercial coverage is just gonna go into my savings, just in case.


How on earth would they know what % is what unless you told them? Even Uber's mileage doesn't show anything but pax miles.

Since uber wants you to file with your insurance regardless would state farm just deny if you WERE ubering but not cancel?

Can you explain what they mean by "filed claims"? What PRECISELY do they want you to do if you have an accident (at fault and not or at that point under dispute) with pax, after accepting fare, app on but no fare yet? And is driving with the app off for instance no surge and driving back to center of town to wait for surge considered ubering?

Get more details if you can since they're already talking to you about this.


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## Simon

Liberty Mutual had the same memo go out. That's a good thing and I'm thinking will halt any disruption to their customers. Because as soon as any of them say hey no worries we will cover you.. sign here. They drop their previous insurance creating a churn they all DO NOT WANT.


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## KevinH

This is a significant turn of events, but it seems to create more questions, as some of the above posters have commented. I would like to know how California will interpret this sort of change of policy regarding the July 1 deadline.

Will the carriers re-write their policies to allow part time commercial use? In California, most auto liability policies meet a state standard for coverage and define commercial use and private use. Will these carriers have to file with the State Insurance commissioner their willingness to cover a vehicle engaged in part time for hire work when the work is not being performed (off app)? Would really like to have someone knowledgeable comment here.


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## nikb

Fuzzyelvis said:


> How on earth would they know what % is what unless you told them? Even Uber's mileage doesn't show anything but pax miles.


He basically just said that they wrote it that way to make it so you can't use this as actual livery insurance. He himself admitted that they really have no way of knowing which miles are which, unless someone is putting tons of miles on, then they'd be suspicious. I put over 1000 miles in personal driving, and I average less than 250 a week in rideshare miles, so I'm at about the 50%. But how can they prove I don't drive 2000 personal miles? They can't.



> Since uber wants you to file with your insurance regardless would state farm just deny if you WERE ubering but not cancel?


 correct according to my agent. He said they would not cover damages if a passenger was in the car on a fare. He said they wouldn't cancel the policy, they'd just deny the claim and kick it to James River.



> Can you explain what they mean by "filed claims"? What PRECISELY do they want you to do if you have an accident (at fault and not or at that point under dispute) with pax, after accepting fare, app on but no fare yet? And is driving with the app off for instance no surge and driving back to center of town to wait for surge considered ubering?


All he knew about was that the exclusion specified that it was "during rideshare driving", He had no idea how to interpret that in terms of phases. Honestly, the only way they'd know you were doing it would be with passenger in car. Any other phase would require them to subpoena Uber for a record of when you had the app on to even know, or for you to tell them at the time of filing the claim.


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## Chipper

Im with State Farm in Florida. I may call an agent to inquire but not my agent. Don't need to draw attention to myself.


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## Huberis

One way they might have an idea is if your yearly mileage triples. I don't know what to make of this. This could be a way to simply encourage drivers to make disclosure. If you are in need of a claim under this kind of allowance, would State Farm review your claim, go through your records and say, "Hey, we'd like to cover this, but our records indicate a dramatic increase in miles you are running" You would also have to prove that you were not Ubering. That might be easier said than done. Lots of questions.

Sounds is if they allow you to be compliant, they still get to collect from you on your premium, but they open the door juuuuust a little to not having to cover you in an accident.

Not sure. these companies have building full of well paid lawyers who make this stuff work for themselves.


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## Huberis

nikb "I put over 1000 miles in personal driving, and I average less than 250 a week in rideshare miles, so I'm at about the 50%. But how can they prove I don't drive 2000 personal miles? They can't."

You would have already disclosed that you drive rideshare at that point. My guess, and it isn't much more than that is that the language determines whether or not they drop you on the spot or renew your policy. You stated the agency told you the memo was written in such a way to be clear that the policy is not meant to be livery coverage.

I'd suspect if you were in an accident and your milage was in anyway in question, you'd subject to questioning from them.


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## Fuzzyelvis

Huberis said:


> One way they might have an idea is if your yearly mileage triples. I don't know what to make of this. This could be a way to simply encourage drivers to make disclosure. If you are in need of a claim under this kind of allowance, would State Farm review your claim, go through your records and say, "Hey, we'd like to cover this, but our records indicate a dramatic increase in miles you are running" You would also have to prove that you were not Ubering. That might be easier said than done. Lots of questions.
> 
> Sounds is if they allow you to be compliant, they still get to collect from you on your premium, but they open the door juuuuust a little to not having to cover you in an accident.
> 
> Not sure. these companies have building full of well paid lawyers who make this stuff work for themselves.


Mileage is not a worry for me. I have delivered pizza for years and my insurance knows it. So my mileage is already higher than most. Plus in Houston so many people have long commutes and the city is so spread out that high mileage is very common anyway. So unless it spiked considerably it wouldn't be noticeable here.


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## Huberis

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Mileage is not a worry for me. I have delivered pizza for years and my insurance knows it. So my mileage is already higher than most. Plus in Houston so many people have long commutes and the city is so spread out that high mileage is very common anyway. So unless it spiked considerably it wouldn't be noticeable here.


But they would be looking for it in the sense (I assume) that you would need to have disclosed about the rideshare work before the accident. I get the pizza delivery deal, I know people who have done it on personal insurance. I also had a guy tell me, and I must admit, this is the first I've heard it, but his wife was told to stop delivering food with her car by their insurance company. He didn't elaborate beyond that. For what it's worth, he is a shuttle driver for a competing service in town, a guy who seems mostly oblivious to Uber and Lyft. He mentioned it as an anecdote.

Any rate, It is one thing for them not to drop you and keep collecting premiums. It will be interesting to see how they do or do not fight you once you make a claim and claim to not have been on app.

..... and, ring around the rosy, you are still then at Uber's mercy to cover your car in certain circumstances.


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## Fuzzyelvis

Huberis said:


> But they would be looking for it in the sense (I assume) that you would need to have disclosed about the rideshare work before the accident. I get the pizza delivery deal, I know people who have done it on personal insurance. I also had a guy tell me, and I must admit, this is the first I've heard it, but his wife was told to stop delivering food with her car by their insurance company. He didn't elaborate beyond that. For what it's worth, he is a shuttle driver for a competing service in town, a guy who seems mostly oblivious to Uber and Lyft. He mentioned it as an anecdote.
> 
> Any rate, It is one thing for them not to drop you and keep collecting premiums. It will be interesting to see how they do or do not fight you once you make a claim and claim to not have been on app.
> 
> ..... and, ring around the rosy, you are still then at Uber's mercy to cover your car in certain circumstances.


I'm just saying that if they agree to cover you so long as the TNC activity is less than 50% they'd be hard pressed to prove it was more. Unless they attached a device like metromile. And for areas where people drive a lot anyway it would be very hard to tell.

James River is clearly a pain in the ass to deal with even if they do eventually come through.

Still waiting for anyone to post here that they actually got a claim paid through them...


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## Huberis

Gotchya. My assumption would be that you'd be under the microscope once you made a claim. They agree to cover, so long as you aren't Ubering (one of the dumbest phrases). I am still waiting to hear of the same thing from James River. If you need to wait for them before you get your car back on the road, be sure to have a good book to read, you'll be there a while.


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## nikb

I should clarify one thing, it's not that now State Farm as a whole knows that I do anything. My agent knows, but this is not a separate policy, it's just a standard personal one. It's not like he made a note when he put the coverage on. As far as State Farm the company knows, it's just another car on a personal policy. The memo was in essence clarifying State Farm's livery exclusion to say that ridesharing in and of itself doesn't make the exclusion apply, unless an accident occurs while ridesharing, or if they somehow find out that the primary use is for ridesharing. And that in such a case, the policy would not be cancelled, just that THAT claim would be rejected.


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## DrJeecheroo

nikb said:


> He gave me a call, cause I have several policies with them, and had to take my one car off when I started rideshare driving. We talked for a bit a while back about how he was hoping State Farm would give some options for drivers. He called me today to tell me that an internal memo was sent out last week saying that as long as livery wasn't the main use of the vehicle (as in, as long as less than 50% of your miles are used for ridesharing) State Farm has decided that using a car for ridesharing as a secondary activity is not grounds for cancellation or denial of coverage as long as any filed claims do not involve the rideshare activity at the time of incident, in which case, the Uber or Lyft insurance would cover.
> 
> I went in to talk to him, and read the memo myself (though he was unable to give me a copy, since it was internal.)
> 
> Any State Farm customers driving part-time would be well advised to call their agent, and check with them, don't just trust me. But I'm definitely switching back. I'm not thrilled with the whole dealing with James River thing if an accident happens, but I'm sure glad to know that I won't be dropped and the $200 I'll be saving every month now that I'm dropping my commercial coverage is just gonna go into my savings, just in case.


We're they like a good neighbor to you?


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## nikb

DrJeecheroo said:


> We're they like a good neighbor to you?


Honestly, compared to GEICO (my previous insurance), it's night and day. My SF agent is an awesome guy.


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## Fuzzyelvis

nikb said:


> Honestly, compared to GEICO (my previous insurance), it's night and day. My SF agent is an awesome guy.


So far I have never had an issue with state farm. My car was totalled delivering pizza and they paid out no problem. Maybe they were looking at it the same way that as long as it's part time that's ok.

I've been with them 25 years. House and auto. They've paid out twice on my uninsured motorist insurance without argument.


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## MikeB

nikb said:


> I'm not thrilled with the whole dealing with James River thing if an accident happens, but I'm sure glad to know that I won't be dropped and the $200 I'll be saving every month now that I'm dropping my commercial coverage is just gonna go into my savings, just in case.


If you get hurt while on Period 2 going to pick up a pax, or Period 3 while driving with pax neither your life, nor your physical injuries, medications and possibly Long Term Care is covered by James River Insurance. Is this risk worth couple hundred bucks a month? Not to me.


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## PTB

internal memo , bs---call me when it is an external memo


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## Chipper

I love State Farm... I've also been with my agent over 20 years.


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## observer

nikb said:


> He basically just said that they wrote it that way to make it so you can't use this as actual livery insurance. He himself admitted that they really have no way of knowing which miles are which, unless someone is putting tons of miles on, then they'd be suspicious. I put over 1000 miles in personal driving, and I average less than 250 a week in rideshare miles, so I'm at about the 50%. But how can they prove I don't drive 2000 personal miles? They can't.
> 
> correct according to my agent. He said they would not cover damages if a passenger was in the car on a fare. He said they wouldn't cancel the policy, they'd just deny the claim and kick it to James River.
> 
> All he knew about was that the exclusion specified that it was "during rideshare driving", He had no idea how to interpret that in terms of phases. Honestly, the only way they'd know you were doing it would be with passenger in car. Any other phase would require them to subpoena Uber for a record of when you had the app on to even know, or for you to tell them at the time of filing the claim.


I wonder if they could subpoena your tax records. If you only Uber you would be hard pressed to claim less than 50% personal miles.

If you only Uber part time you may be able to get away with it.

Also if I remember correctly, in some states, insurance companies and Uber have agreed to share info on driver accidents.


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## Lidman

Popular State farm Commercial...... Asian Guy singing...


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## MikeB

LAndreas said:


> Ummm, all standard auto insurance policies cover damages and liability to the other party only (and damages to your car if it's a comprehensive policy because - most likely - there's another party owning equity in your car, like a lease or finance co). If you get hurt, that's what you have health insurance for??


You're working, ain't ya? Yeah, you're working driving pax for hire for Uber's gains. Every taxi, muni, limo, bus, airline, chauffeur service company protects their drivers, pilots if they get hurt on the job, don't they? Overwhelming majority of injuries sustained by drivers on the job derive from an auto accidents, don't they? What are the chances of an office clerk, or a computer programmer, or a teacher to get in automobile accident while at work versus the same chances to get hurt at work for a taxi/Uber driver? The chances are heavily stacked against drivers, don't they?
So, Uber not covering drivers' injuries, medications and medical care is as viciously ludicrous as its infamous advertising to pax that the tips are included in the fare.
So, as an IC, being denied any benefits, overtime pay and medical coverage by its "parner" Uber, a.k.a. the most lying, deceiving and unscrupulous corporation in the world, a responsible and pragmatic person wouldn't "save" on insurance coverage, or would he?

Well, a responsible and pragmatic individual won't drive for Uber anyways.


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## Lidman

MikeB said:


> You're working, ain't ya? Yeah, you're working driving pax for hire for Uber's gains. Every taxi, muni, limo, bus, airline, chauffeur service company protects their drivers, pilots if they get hurt on the job, don't they? Overwhelming majority of injuries sustained by drivers on the job derive from an auto accidents, don't they? What are the chances of an office clerk, or a computer programmer, or a teacher to get in automobile accident while at work versus the same chances to get hurt at work for a taxi/Uber driver? The chances are heavily stacked against drivers, don't they?
> So, Uber not covering drivers' injuries, medications and medical care is as viciously ludicrous as its infamous advertising to pax that the tips are included in the fare.
> So, as an IC, being denied any benefits, overtime pay and medical coverage by its "parner" Uber, a.k.a. the most lying, deceiving and unscrupulous corporation in the world, a responsible and pragmatic person wouldn't "save" on insurance coverage, or would he?
> 
> Well, a responsible and pragmatic individual won't drive for Uber anyways.


 Andreas is either an ubershill and/or is brainwashed into thinking Uber cares about it's drivers. Anyone who doesn't agree with him is considered a troll.


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## MikeB

Lidman said:


> Andreas is either an ubershill and/or is brainwashed into thinking Uber cares about it's drivers. Anyone who doesn't agree with him is considered a troll.


Well, if he's an Uber shill he can go straight to hell and burn there for eternity. If he's not an Uber shillhanza, as he definitely sounds throughout these boards, he must not be posting here anymore, because his conniving and misleading agenda brings a lot of harm to the regular and new members. In any respect his "USSR" comparison to Uber is so out of line with reality that unquestionably not a single soul on this forum is taking this half wit seriously. Troll has been ignored.
Back to the subject:
Uber is a shitty gig and it's insurance carrier James River has been exposed as a fake. No driver should be exposed to the risks of not having an adequate insurance coverage while on the job. Its been pretty well covered on these boards that lying to one's personal insurance carer and hiding commercial activities for hire while driving a personal automobile is a road to disaster. Loss of life, property, jail time and financial ruin is just to name a few. Anything can happen to anyone at any moment. Chances of drivers spending countless hours behind the wheel to get involved into an automobile accident are multiplied exponentially. Lack of adequate insurance coverage by Uber's carrier is well exposed on these boards. So, to reiterate: OP, I would never rely on James River and my own personal insurance carrier to bail me out in case of disaster. NEVER.
Granted commercial insurance policy costs more and adding it to other Uber-related expenses may lead to complete lack of a profitability, but driving livery without proper coverage is a straight road to disaster. Just don't do it.


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## Older Chauffeur

LAndreas said:


> Ummm, all standard auto insurance policies cover damages and liability to the other party only (and damages to your car if it's a comprehensive policy because - most likely - there's another party owning equity in your car, like a lease or finance co). If you get hurt, that's what you have health insurance for??


You seem to have some terms and coverage options confused. "Comprehensive" does not refer to the policy as a whole, but rather damage or loss from something other than a collision, such as a tree falling on your car, fire or theft. There is typically a deductible. And yes, if your car is financed or leased you are required to protect the lienholder/lessor. Collision coverage is for your car, with a deductible if an accident is your fault. Comprehensive and Collision will pay for your car regardless of whether or not you own it outright. Public Liability covers injury to others not in your vehicle, while Property Damage covers vehicles or other non-owned property. If you opt for Medical Payments it covers you and people in your car, but typically not for large amounts.
Regarding health insurance, I was rear-ended while stopped at a red light. The at fault party's insurance eventually settled, but out of that settlement, I had to reimburse my employer-provided health plan for treatment for which they had paid.


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## Guest

nikb said:


> Honestly, compared to GEICO (my previous insurance), it's night and day. My SF agent is an awesome guy.


Your agent may be nice, but try dealing with the, for a claim. State Farm and Nationwide auto claims are the slowest out there. Geico settles in a week. I worked in an auto body shop in PA, I have dealt with all insurers.


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## nikb

Well, Geico gave us a lawyer when we were being sued who had been disbarred, so we weren't too happy with that.


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## Fuzzyelvis

uberstatecollege said:


> Your agent may be nice, but try dealing with the, for a claim. State Farm and Nationwide auto claims are the slowest out there. Geico settles in a week. I worked in an auto body shop in PA, I have dealt with all insurers.


State Farm totalled my car and got me a check within a week. Meanwhile I didn't care as I had a rental (wasn't ubering then). They gave me plenty of time to research and buy another car also. And they have had no problem with me delivering pizza.


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## Lidman

Fuzzyelvis said:


> State Farm totalled my car and got me a check within a week. Meanwhile I didn't care as I had a rental (wasn't ubering then). They gave me plenty of time to research and buy another car also. And they have had no problem with me delivering pizza.


 Did you deliver for domino's pizza?


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## nikb

MikeB said:


> If you get hurt while on Period 2 going to pick up a pax, or Period 3 while driving with pax neither your life, nor your physical injuries, medications and possibly Long Term Care is covered by James River Insurance. Is this risk worth couple hundred bucks a month? Not to me.


This wording is in the Pennsylvania Insurance document from Raiser "In addition, basic first party benefits that are required under Pennsylvania law that can help cover expenses, regardless of fault for medical and dental treatment and certain other medical expenses for an injury to any occupant of the vehicle that occurs as a result of an accident are provided."

Seems to me that these would be covered, at least according to the wording, though I'll admit, it's a bit vague.


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## Huberis

nikb said:


> This wording is in the Pennsylvania Insurance document from Raiser "In addition, basic first party benefits that are required under Pennsylvania law that can help cover expenses, regardless of fault for medical and dental treatment and certain other medical expenses for an injury to any occupant of the vehicle that occurs as a result of an accident are provided."
> 
> Seems to me that these would be covered, at least according to the wording, though I'll admit, it's a bit vague.


I thought what you described from James River was almost always contingent upon you, the driver having valid personal coverage.

I would be curious to know if what State Farm is telling you about this memo........ How hard are they going to go to prove or disprove you were engaged in ridshare at the time of an accident? There is the mileage issue. Time will tell on this one. You as a longtime customer, the contents of the memo may apply to you, I find it hard to believe this would fly for someone looking into State Farm personal coverage for the reason that so and so dropped them after disclosure.

Just a guess.


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## Guest

nikb said:


> This wording is in the Pennsylvania Insurance document from Raiser "In addition, basic first party benefits that are required under Pennsylvania law that can help cover expenses, regardless of fault for medical and dental treatment and certain other medical expenses for an injury to any occupant of the vehicle that occurs as a result of an accident are provided."
> 
> Seems to me that these would be covered, at least according to the wording, though I'll admit, it's a bit vague.


Did you inform your insurance company that you are driving for Uber?


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## Fuzzyelvis

Lidman said:


> Did you deliver for domino's pizza?


Still do.


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## DrJeecheroo

Do you make cross state deliveries? I'm hungry.


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## gprimr1

I spoke to a SF agent in Towson MD and she confirmed that you won't be dropped for using your car for Uber if it's 50% or less of what you do with your car.


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## Huberis

gprimr1 said:


> I spoke to a SF agent in Towson MD and she confirmed that you won't be dropped for using your car for Uber if it's 50% or less of what you do with your car.


That is all fine and dandy, but what does it mean in the real world?

It seems to suggest to me that they have encouraged you to disclose, they collect the same premium, but now, if you are in a collision, if you make any kind of claim they are going to ask for electronic proof (sooner or later) that you weren't logged in. James River isn't going to want to cover your damage, so they will more than likely be willing to cooperate with SF's request for disclosure. If there is any issue, all they need to do is look at your driving history. If your mileage has double in the months since signing up as an Uber driver....... well they may be cool with it until you need them.

It seems as if this says "Ok, you have disclosed, we wont drop you." It doesn't suggest in any way shape or form they aren't going to fight you in the future. 
I may be wrong, but that is my sense. This wouldn't let me feel as if the issue was settled in a way where I was protected.


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## nikb

Huberis said:


> That is all fine and dandy, but what does it mean in the real world?
> 
> It seems to suggest to me that they have encouraged you to disclose, they collect the same premium, but now, if you are in a collision, if you make any kind of claim they are going to ask for electronic proof (sooner or later) that you weren't logged in. James River isn't going to want to cover your damage, so they will more than likely be willing to cooperate with SF's request for disclosure. If there is any issue, all they need to do is look at your driving history. If your mileage has double in the months since signing up as an Uber driver....... well they may be cool with it until you need them.
> 
> It seems as if this says "Ok, you have disclosed, we wont drop you." It doesn't suggest in any way shape or form they aren't going to fight you in the future.
> I may be wrong, but that is my sense. This wouldn't let me feel as if the issue was settled in a way where I was protected.


Disclosed? To whom? My agent certainly didn't add any info to my policy saying that I drive for Uber. And he's (as he kwnows) is not involved in underwriting a claim. So how exactly would anyone that matters think to ask?


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## Huberis

nikb said:


> Disclosed? To whom? My agent certainly didn't add any info to my policy saying that I drive for Uber. And he's (as he kwnows) is not involved in underwriting a claim. So how exactly would anyone that matters think to ask?


I have no idea. It sees to me, if you had this discussion with your agent...... there must have been some sort of disclosure. The entire memo suggests at some point, you need to let them in on the secret.


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## Huberis

In order for them to not have a problem..... you're Ok so long as it's not more than 50% and so on: don't they need to be made aware??? What am I missing here? Who did you talk to about the memo?


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## observer

Huberis said:


> In order for them to not have a problem..... you're Ok so long as it's not more than 50% and so on: don't they need to be made aware??? What am I missing here? Who did you talk to about the memo?


Talk doesn't mean Zip. The only thing that matters is what is written down in BLACK and WHITE on your CONTRACT.


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## Huberis

observer said:


> Talk doesn't mean Zip. The only thing that matters is what is written down in BLACK and WHITE on your CONTRACT.


I couldn't agree with you more..... hence the need to sit down with your carrier and really work it out. I completely agree. I'm not sure what Nikb thinks he/she has settled. None of it means anything to me, it sounds like innuendo at best.

At best, it suggests, he may not get the coverage or the ****ing he might have expected or hoped for. This State Farm stuff means zero.


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## Huberis

Maybe Nikb has talked with his insurance company maybe he hadn't, somehow he got wind of an internal memo. observer, I do know this. If he drives rideshare in the State of PA and even Philly is on board with this now, the PUC requires to disclose with their personal insurance providers of their rideshare activity. Uber asks for an electronic signature I believe or provides a box to check on their app and it is supposed to indicate disclosure was made.

Everyone knows the drivers are lying and haven't disclosed. The PUC at this moment has no way of checking or enforcing from what I am able to gather. They are supposedly working on enforcement protocol that the PUC will be able to put in place but who knows? More than likely, what will happen is municipalities will catch up and catch on and try to create local ordinance, regulations and registries. The efforts will be met with protests from Uber, people will point fingers, but who is kidding who?

Nikb hasn't complied yet he has probably come closer to complying with disclosure requirements than most drivers in the state and that isn't saying much.


----------



## observer

Huberis said:


> Maybe Nikb has talked with his insurance company maybe he hadn't, somehow he got wind of an internal memo. observer, I do know this. If he drives rideshare in the State of PA and even Philly is on board with this now, the PUC requires to disclose with their personal insurance providers of their rideshare activity. Uber asks for an electronic signature I believe or provides a box to check on their app and it is supposed to indicate disclosure was made.
> 
> Everyone knows the drivers are lying and haven't disclosed. The PUC at this moment has no way of checking or enforcing from what I am able to gather. They are supposedly working on enforcement protocol that the PUC will be able to put in place but who knows? More than likely, what will happen is municipalities will catch up and catch on and try to create local ordinance, regulations and registries. The efforts will be met with protests from Uber, people will point fingers, but who is kidding who?
> 
> Nikb hasn't complied yet he has probably come closer to complying with disclosure requirements than most drivers in the state and that isn't saying much.


Unfortunately Uber has placed tens of thousands of drivers in the unethical position of lying to their insurance companies.

There has to be some accountability to all these corporations that are bending rules. Taking money overseas and cutting employee wages to unsustainable levels.

Historically, when wage differences between the haves and havenots got too far out of wack, the havenots revolted violently.

Supposedly we live in a more "civilized" era, where this won't happen.

I'm not so sure it won't.


----------



## Huberis

observer said:


> Unfortunately Uber has placed tens of thousands of drivers in the unethical position of lying to their insurance companies.
> 
> There has to be some accountability to all these corporations that are bending rules. Taking money overseas and cutting employee wages to unsustainable levels.
> 
> Historically, when wage differences between the haves and havenots got too far out of wack, the havenots revolted violently.
> 
> Supposedly we live in a more "civilized" era, where this won't happen.
> 
> I'm not so sure it won't.


Well, we are going to have to agree on that. I consider travis to be a kind of modern robber baron. As a side note, I read "Old Jules by Mari Sandoz this winter. Her father come from the old world, from money , came to American and carved out an existence in the Sandhills of Nebraska in the 1870s. As a homesteader, he had to deal with greedy cattlemen and the whims of the railroad. Some of the get rich schemes designed to fleece the poorest and most vulnerable as described by Sandoz were quite ingenious and rather discouraging.

This is no different, just a different wrapper.


----------



## observer

Huberis said:


> Well, we are going to have to agree on that. I consider travis to be a kind of modern robber baron. As a side note, I read "Old Jules by Mari Sandoz this winter. Her father come from the old world, from money , came to American and carved out an existence in the Sandhills of Nebraska in the 1870s. As a homesteader, he had to deal with greedy cattlemen and the whims of the railroad. Some of the get rich schemes designed to fleece the poorest and most vulnerable as described by Sandoz were quite ingenious and rather discouraging.
> 
> This is no different, just a different wrapper.


We think alike, I actually called him a robber baron in an earlier thread.

https://uberpeople.net/threads/by-john-stossel-just-yesterday.11562/#post-156784

Thanks for the tip on the book, i'll have to get a copy of it.


----------



## Huberis

observer said:


> We think alike, I actually called him a robber baron in an earlier thread.
> 
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/by-john-stossel-just-yesterday.11562/#post-156784
> 
> Thanks for the tip on the book, i'll have to get a copy of it.


There you go.....

Sandoz is good reading, enjoy. Cheyenne Autumn was very good too. Reading a lot of Jim Harrison pointed me toward her so you really have him to thank.


----------



## gprimr1

I'm going to see State Farm Monday and see what they will offer. I'm interested.


----------



## Guest

nikb said:


> Disclosed? To whom? My agent certainly didn't add any info to my policy saying that I drive for Uber. And he's (as he kwnows) is not involved in underwriting a claim. So how exactly would anyone that matters think to ask?


So we have to base our whole job or part time job on lies? Is that what Uber wants from us?


----------



## observer

uberstatecollege said:


> So we have to base our whole job or part time job on lies? Is that what Uber wants from us?


Yupp.


----------



## Huberis

uberstatecollege said:


> So we have to base our whole job or part time job on lies? Is that what Uber wants from us?


First he said he went so far as to see the memo in the office, sat down....... yet he claims, they still don't know as to whether or not he is driving rideshare. Never mind the other memo from the PUC that says we want written proof your personal coverage is on board. He sure as hell suggested he is out of compliance on those terms.

I am really surprised he would think he is better off saving the two hundred a month and going back to SF gives him more peace of mind.

nikb You mention State Farm has no way of proving what percentage of you miles comes from rideshare. Do they need to? If their is suspicion you were driving Uber at that moment... your screwed, we know that, but if you go to make the claim, and they look at your miles and something looks odd, do they need to prove what miles were what or do YOU need to be able to prove it?

How do you know the burden is on them to determine what percentage of your miles is what? That burden could be on you. I sure don't know. There is one more issue with respect to Pa, your state: You are expected to disclose with your insurer what you do, you are supposed to submit in writing that they are fine with it. Their position in the memo may not meet the requirements of the PUC should they ever get around to checking.......

Obviously, you already indicated that you complied, stated her you didn't. You really feel dropping your commercial insurance is worth the savings? The PUC seems to be getting ready to ramp up their efforts with respect to Uber in the Burgh.


----------



## Older Chauffeur

nikb said:


> Disclosed? To whom? My agent certainly didn't add any info to my policy saying that I drive for Uber. And he's (as he kwnows) is not involved in underwriting a claim. So how exactly would anyone that matters think to ask?


How do you know what your agent did or did not add in the info kept in their files? The agent has a duty to inform the company of anything affecting their risks in insuring you. Also, claims are handled by claims adjusters, not underwriters. The underwriters take the info about you gathered by your agent and assess the risks involved in order to establish the ratings of you, your vehicle and the use of same. And the ones that matter are certainly looking at ride sharing and asking the pertinent questions. Insurance companies are well aware of what is going on with Uber/Lyft et al. To think otherwise is just putting ones head in the sand.


----------



## Huberis

Older Chauffeur said:


> How do you know what your agent did or did not add in the info kept in their files? The agent has a duty to inform the company of anything affecting their risks in insuring you. Also, claims are handled by claims adjusters, not underwriters. The underwriters take the info about you gathered by your agent and assess the risks involved in order to establish the ratings of you, your vehicle and the use of same. And the ones that matter are certainly looking at ride sharing and asking the pertinent questions. Insurance companies are well aware of what is going on with Uber/Lyft et al. To think otherwise is just putting ones head in the sand.


That under writer just wants to get info was my assumption. He can tell nikb what he wants to hear: "we can't prove specifically what you were doing". The question is, what do they need to prove? It may be incumbent upon you the driver to prove that you weren't Ubering X amount of the time.

@OldChauffeur, This is Pa, he is supposed to have complete disclosure with his provider, none of this wink wink nod nod bullshit.


----------



## flashgordonnc

Fuzzyelvis said:


> How on earth would they know what % is what unless you told them? Even Uber's mileage doesn't show anything but pax miles.
> 
> Since uber wants you to file with your insurance regardless would state farm just deny if you WERE ubering but not cancel?
> 
> Can you explain what they mean by "filed claims"? What PRECISELY do they want you to do if you have an accident (at fault and not or at that point under dispute) with pax, after accepting fare, app on but no fare yet? And is driving with the app off for instance no surge and driving back to center of town to wait for surge considered ubering?
> 
> Get more details if you can since they're already talking to you about this.


It is very easy to determine the "probability" that you are using the vehicle for ride sharing for more than 50% of total mileage. The burden on proof is on the driver. The burden of probability is all the insurance company needs. An insurance company can say 2x for dead miles and give you 2.5x as a courtesy cushion. Ever get your car serviced, oil changed, safety inspected, etc? All record mileage.


----------



## flashgordonnc

Huberis said:


> A step forward...... You are still at the mercy of James River to come through and fix your car or go to bat for you. In certain circumstances, JR will cover damages to your car, but that coverage is contingent to having valid personal insurance. This would satisfy James River for them to go to bat and cover your damages?
> 
> This strikes me as simpler than Metro Mile. Will you need to somehow prove that you were not logged in at the time of the accident and would you need to provide milage?
> 
> Last question: Rideshare mileage can't be more than 50% of total mileage. In my taxi, I drive more in one shift than I do all week in my personal car. What then?


As the saying goes, what goes around comes around. Your coverage is only as good as what you have written and in your possession. So tread carefully my friend.


----------



## Huberis

flashgordonnc said:


> As the saying goes, what goes around comes around. Your coverage is only as good as what you have written and in your possession. So tread carefully my friend.


I was speaking rhetorically. I couldn't agree with you more. Hell, I drive taxi not for Travis.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

flashgordonnc said:


> It is very easy to determine the "probability" that you are using the vehicle for ride sharing for more than 50% of total mileage. The burden on proof is on the driver. The burden of probability is all the insurance company needs. An insurance company can say 2x for dead miles and give you 2.5x as a courtesy cushion. Ever get your car serviced, oil changed, safety inspected, etc? All record mileage.


I don't think you're getting my point. I also deliver pizza. My insurance KNOWS I do that. Has no problem with it. BTW I have never met ANY pizza delivery person who has commercial insurance.

Ubering has increased my mileage from 30,000 to 35,000 miles as I've decreased the pizza delivery a bit but taken on more ubering. I have never in 30 years owned a primary vehicle that I put less than 25,000 or so miles on due to Houston's spread out nature and the fact I don't live in the city.

Many folks in this area drive a lot of miles, period. Commutes change and are long. If your mileage suddenly doubled it would be a red flag but for many folks in Houston the mileage is already way above the national average and an extra 5 or 10 thousand miles wouldn't mean much percentage wise.


----------



## Guest

Fuzzyelvis said:


> I don't think you're getting my point. I also deliver pizza. My insurance KNOWS I do that. Has no problem with it. BTW I have never met ANY pizza delivery person who has commercial insurance.
> 
> Ubering has increased my mileage from 30,000 to 35,000 miles as I've decreased the pizza delivery a bit but taken on more ubering. I have never in 30 years owned a primary vehicle that I put less than 25,000 or so miles on due to Houston's spread out nature and the fact I don't live in the city.
> 
> Many folks in this area drive a lot of miles, period. Commutes change and are long. If your mileage suddenly doubled it would be a red flag but for many folks in Houston the mileage is already way above the national average and an extra 5 or 10 thousand miles wouldn't mean much percentage wise.


I'm curious, what insurance allow you to deliver pizza? Are you doing it as an employee, or an independent contractor? If you are in an accident would your employee cover the damages or your personal policy being used for commercial purposes?


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

uberstatecollege said:


> I'm curious, what insurance allow you to deliver pizza? Are you doing it as an employee, or an independent contractor? If you are in an accident would your employee cover the damages or your personal policy being used for commercial purposes?


State Farm. Car was totaled while working (2013 vehicle last July). Had to go on my insurance (I was run off the road and the other driver was not found) and State Farm paid it off no problem (about $14,000). Dominos does not provide car insurance although work men's comp would apply (was not hurt though). All pizza delivery drivers I know of are employees btw.


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## Guest

Fuzzyelvis said:


> State Farm. Car was totaled while working (2013 vehicle last July). Had to go on my insurance (I was run off the road and the other driver was not found) and State Farm paid it off no problem (about $14,000). Dominos does not provide car insurance although work men's comp would apply (was not hurt though). All pizza delivery drivers I know of are employees btw.


That's great that they paid it off, did State Farm know you were being paid as an employee at the time of accident?


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## Huberis

uberstatecollege said:


> That's great that they paid it off, did State Farm know you were being paid as an employee at the time of accident?


I do know a guy who told me his wife used to deliver food. Somehow or another her insurance company heard about what she was doing and sent them a letter. They were told that was a no no. I must admit, that is the only example I know of a sammich haller being asked to stop.

To be a paid employee of Dominoes they leave you up the creek too. Bummer.


----------



## gprimr1

I met with a State Farm agent today and she said she called the underwritting office before I got there, and they will cover and pay claims of an Uber driver as long it's less than 50% of the car's use. 

And it was given to me in writting.


----------



## d'Uber

When I contacted Metromile, I was hoping it would be supplemental to State Farm. The CSR tried to squeak past the, "And we'd be replacing State Farm as your insurer." I said, "Oh, no way!" and hung up. Only do Uber on weekends and usually take at least one day off, so should be good.


----------



## Huberis

gprimr1 said:


> I met with a State Farm agent today and she said she called the underwritting office before I got there, and they will cover and pay claims of an Uber driver as long it's less than 50% of the car's use.
> 
> And it was given to me in writting.


How are you to document your mileage? Do they simply look at your past average mileage and look to see if your mileage doubled??


----------



## UberKurtDesMoines

I got this in writing from my State Farm agent yesterday (5-11-15):

1. State Farm will provide coverage for private passenger vehicles outside of UBER log-in time.
2. Uber provides Contingent Liability Coverage (when online but not in use) of bodily injury $50,000 per person/$100,000 per accident - property damage $25,000.
3. Uber provides Commercial Liability Coverage (when online AND in use) of Combined Limit (BI and PD) of $1 million and Uninsured/Underinsured limit of $1.5 million.

There is still a question of whether or not Uber will cover physical damage to my vehicle in the event of a claim when using the Uber app.

They never mentioned anything about 50% mileage.

By the way, I'm in Iowa. It may vary by state.


----------



## UberKurtDesMoines

Fuzzyelvis said:


> State Farm totalled my car and got me a check within a week. Meanwhile I didn't care as I had a rental (wasn't ubering then). They gave me plenty of time to research and buy another car also. And they have had no problem with me delivering pizza.


I also have had awesome experience with State Farm. About six months ago my van was parked (unoccupied) on the street in front of my house and a drunk driver hit it head on and totaled both vehicles. They had insurance and State Farm went after them. I had my new van and even my deductible back within seven days. Even had a rental car during that time. Fantastic State Farm service!


----------



## gprimr1




----------



## Huberis

gprimr1 said:


>


That is all great, fine and dandy, but what happens when your mileage doubles? I would guess if you are anything other than a causal driver, the miles will more than double. If you have a claim, will they asses your mileage after they pay out or before?

Well, it will be interesting to see how this works out over the long haul. Most people seem to rave about State Farm. I'm not sure states are going to be excited about this for the reason that the 50% mileage cap is vague, open to contention and a bit of a loophole.

Good luck.


----------



## gprimr1

I put a lot of miles on my car driving for photography and going to the fire house 4 nights a week, and I can prove those things as well since we have to log in and log out.


----------



## Huberis

gprimr1 said:


> I put a lot of miles on my car driving for photography and going to the fire house 4 nights a week, and I can prove those things as well since we have to log in and log out.


Hopefully it will work out. It'll be a very case by case basis. What about period 1 coverage for your car?


----------



## AMAdriver

nikb said:


> He gave me a call, cause I have several policies with them, and had to take my one car off when I started rideshare driving. We talked for a bit a while back about how he was hoping State Farm would give some options for drivers. He called me today to tell me that an internal memo was sent out last week saying that as long as livery wasn't the main use of the vehicle (as in, as long as less than 50% of your miles are used for ridesharing) State Farm has decided that using a car for ridesharing as a secondary activity is not grounds for cancellation or denial of coverage as long as any filed claims do not involve the rideshare activity at the time of incident, in which case, the Uber or Lyft insurance would cover.
> 
> I went in to talk to him, and read the memo myself (though he was unable to give me a copy, since it was internal.)
> 
> Any State Farm customers driving part-time would be well advised to call their agent, and check with them, don't just trust me. But I'm definitely switching back. I'm not thrilled with the whole dealing with James River thing if an accident happens, but I'm sure glad to know that I won't be dropped and the $200 I'll be saving every month now that I'm dropping my commercial coverage is just gonna go into my savings, just in case.


How will you pay for medical expenses/car repairs if you are in an accident while carrying a passenger? TNCs only pay liability, they do not pay comp or collision.


----------



## gprimr1

AMAdriver said:


> How will you pay for medical expenses/car repairs if you are in an accident while carrying a passenger? TNCs only pay liability, they do not pay comp or collision.


Isn't that they only cover it if your insurance covers it? I remember one guy complaining they didn't pay for repairs, they said because his insurance didn't cover repairs.


----------



## AMAdriver

Uber and other TNCs only have liability insurance. Nothing else. So if you want your car fixed or get medical treatment you, the driver, will have to pay for it. I am trying to get affordable commercial insurance for this purpose to cover me and my car. So far, premiums are too expensive.


----------



## Huberis

AMAdriver said:


> Uber and other TNCs only have liability insurance. Nothing else. So if you want your car fixed or get medical treatment you, the driver, will have to pay for it. I am trying to get affordable commercial insurance for this purpose to cover me and my car. So far, premiums are too expensive.


I don't drive Uber but I believe under neither phase one, two or three would a driver have any kind of medical coverage under James River. During phase 2 and 3, a driver would have collision coverage if they have collision on their personal policy. There would be a $1000 deductible for Uber drivers (2500 for Lyft). Drivers are expected to file a claim with their personal provider first, when that is refused, they would file with James River. From what I hear it is a slow process and no doubt they could contest the claim, make it tough or refuse.

Where things get particularly confusing is phase one (app on and idle). In many states, the coverage from James River is contingent liability and zero coverage for your auto. In other words, you would be expected to file the with your provider for everything first and if they don't cover you for the liability issue, James River provides some kind of coverage. Damage to your car would...... you would be in trouble.

If you are looking for commercial insurance, good for you. I assume you are aware that livery driving invalidates most personal insurance policies? Some companies now suggest they won't outright cancel on you if your Uber driving is less than 50% of your total mileage, but you would wind up with some glaring gaps in your coverage. You would be screwed during phase 1 for example and if you are financing the car.... you'd be ****ed.

Commercial insurance is expensive. Hybrid plans where they are offered are usually still expensive but not nearly as bad....... I would suggest it isn't entirely that the rates for commercial insurance is too expensive. A good bit of the trouble is that Uber's rates are too low to make it possible to afford the coverage. They don't want you having commercial insurance, you would be too independent at that point.


----------



## AMAdriver

Huberis said:


> I don't drive Uber but I believe under noither phase one, two or three would a driver have any kind of coverage under James River. During phase 2 and 3, a driver would have collision coverage if they have collision on their personal policy. There would be a $1000 deductible for Uber drivers (2500 for Lyft). Drivers are expected to file a claim with their personal provider first, when that is refused, they would file with James River. From what I hear it is a slow process and no doubt they could contest the claim, make it tough or refuse.
> 
> Where things get particularly confusing is phase one (app on and idle). In many states, the coverage from James River is contingent liability and zero coverage for your auto. In other words, you would be expected to file the with your provider for everything first and if they don't cover you for the liability issue, James River provides some kind of coverage. Damage to your car would...... you would be in trouble.
> 
> If you are looking for commercial insurance, good for you. I assume you are aware that livery driving invalidates most personal insurance policies? Some companies now suggest they won't outright cancel on you if your Uber driving is less than 50% of your total mileage, but you would wind up with some glaring gaps in your coverage. You would be screwed during phase 1 for example and if you are financing the car.... you'd be ****ed.
> 
> Commercial insurance is expensive. Hybrid plans where they are offered are usually still expensive but not nearly as bad....... I would suggest it isn't entirely that the rates for commercial insurance is too expensive. A good bit of the trouble is that Uber's rates are too low to make it possible to afford the coverage. They don't want you having commercial insurance, you would be too independent at that point.


For now, I'm glad I never started driving for Uber. I can't put my financed car at risk like that. So far, the one quote I got for commercial coverage (in NC) was $533 a month. Ouch.


----------



## Huberis

AMAdriver said:


> For now, I'm glad I never started driving for Uber. I can't put my financed car at risk like that. So far, the one quote I got for commercial coverage (in NC) was $533 a month. Ouch.


Peace of mind doesn't come cheap. And then you no doubt have other bullshit to worry about anyway. $533 a month, I believe that easily. If you are financing your car, you would need collision 24/7 it's that simple. Had you started driving Uber just to test the waters, that don't work. I drive taxi in a large college town. I am fortunate in that we have several taxi companies and two of them are quite good to work for, not to say I don't ***** and moan. My complaints are trivial.

The biggest appeal of rideshare driving for a lot of people is that it is depicted to be casual work with easy entry. That is a distortion of the truth.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

uberstatecollege said:


> That's great that they paid it off, did State Farm know you were being paid as an employee at the time of accident?


Yes. I am still working there and they knew and know now.

I have been with them for almost 30 years and they have only paid out once for a minor fender bender that was my fault (when I say minor we're talking less than $500 in today's money.) So maybe that helps.

They also insure my house and paid out one claim for $800 in 21 years. (Probably about $1300 in today's money).


----------



## AMAdriver

Remember, as an Uber driver, you are a contracted driver. That means you are responsible for your own insurance coverage for your car and medical expenses.
It pays to _really _read the Partner Agreement with Uber.


----------



## Huberis

AMAdriver said:


> Remember, as an Uber driver, you are a contracted driver. That means you are responsible for your own insurance coverage for your car and medical expenses.
> It pays to _really _read the Partner Agreement with Uber.


The problem is drivers are often told something else. The paper says one thing, the rep another. Much of Uber's mantra is that so long as you remain ignorant and keep your insurer ignorant, well then you are going to be ok. That is the mantra. In an ideal world from the perspective of Travis, a driver would hide their rideshare activity and make a personal claim whenever possible. That has been the focus of their energy. Hopefully, over time, that avenue will be shut down. It isn't right to do that.


----------



## JimmyJ

Huberis said:


> The problem is drivers are often told something else. The paper says one thing, the rep another. Much of Uber's mantra is that so long as you remain ignorant and keep your insurer ignorant, well then you are going to be ok. That is the mantra. In an ideal world from the perspective of Travis, a driver would hide their rideshare activity and make a personal claim whenever possible. That has been the focus of their energy. Hopefully, over time, that avenue will be shut down. It isn't right to do that.


That is a very good perspective of what's happening. I see so many people driving for UberX that have their head in the sand it's unbelievable. Sooner or later they are going to have to pay the piper. They don't realize that with all of the extra miles they put on while Uber'ing their potential risk of having an accident increases exponentially. Also they fail to see that they are rapidly losing " equity " in their vehicles.

I can't fathom that some of these people think they are going to make a profit long term. The deck is stacked against them.


----------



## chadw1701e

This is what I got back from my State Farm agent ..

-Auto insurance applicants who indicate the primary use of the vehicle (50 percent or more of the driving time or annual mileage) is "business use" and whose occupation is noted as a driver for a transportation network company should not be written for new business coverage.
-Infrequent or part-time use of the vehicle to carry passengers for a fee in connection with a transportation network company may not, by itself, serve as a basis for underwriting action (cancellation), provided the primary use of the vehicle is for eligible purposes. In other words, if the occupation and primary use of the vehicle is other than full-time transportation network company use, it will remain eligible. 
-If we discover that a current customer is using their insured vehicle on a full-time basis to provide transportation to others for a fee, the use of the vehicle becomes a for-profit livery operation. This type of use represents a commercial exposure that is not eligible and underwriting action would be appropriate. State Farm does not have a coverage form or rating program for livery businesses.​
This is what worries me .. "Infrequent or part-time use of the vehicle to carry passengers for a fee in connection with a transportation network company _*may*_ not, by itself, serve as a basis for underwriting action (cancellation)".

I can't find anyone in the state of Arkansas that will insure an Uber/Lyft driver. I guess I am out of options.


----------



## Huberis

chadw1701e said:


> This is what I got back from my State Farm agent ..
> 
> -Auto insurance applicants who indicate the primary use of the vehicle (50 percent or more of the driving time or annual mileage) is "business use" and whose occupation is noted as a driver for a transportation network company should not be written for new business coverage.
> -Infrequent or part-time use of the vehicle to carry passengers for a fee in connection with a transportation network company may not, by itself, serve as a basis for underwriting action (cancellation), provided the primary use of the vehicle is for eligible purposes. In other words, if the occupation and primary use of the vehicle is other than full-time transportation network company use, it will remain eligible.
> -If we discover that a current customer is using their insured vehicle on a full-time basis to provide transportation to others for a fee, the use of the vehicle becomes a for-profit livery operation. This type of use represents a commercial exposure that is not eligible and underwriting action would be appropriate. State Farm does not have a coverage form or rating program for livery businesses.​
> This is what worries me .. "Infrequent or part-time use of the vehicle to carry passengers for a fee in connection with a transportation network company _*may*_ not, by itself, serve as a basis for underwriting action (cancellation)".
> 
> I can't find anyone in the state of Arkansas that will insure an Uber/Lyft driver. I guess I am out of options.


It sounds to me as if they are allowing themselves to continue to collect money from you while covering their ass at the same time. This wouldn't make me feel secure with the thought that I was getting much in the way of coverage.

It is up to you to determine what the gaps are and what they mean. I hope your car is paid for. From what I have heard about this ongoing discussion is that you would end up with a gap equating to zero collision coverage during phase one. If your car is being financed, that would be a problem. I would also assume that any kind of claim be it rhough James River or Sate Farm is going to be more complicated and would be at the mercy of a person's ability to verify their rideshare activity.

Upon filing a claim with State Farm, would they ask for your odometer reading before providing coverage? I find it hard to believe that most people driving rideshare in a way that they really intend to have in impact on their income wouldn't be doubling their mileage easily. Many people.


----------



## HoverCraft1

MikeB said:


> You're working, ain't ya? Yeah, you're working driving pax for hire for Uber's gains. Every taxi, muni, limo, bus, airline, chauffeur service company protects their drivers, pilots if they get hurt on the job, don't they? Overwhelming majority of injuries sustained by drivers on the job derive from an auto accidents, don't they? What are the chances of an office clerk, or a computer programmer, or a teacher to get in automobile accident while at work versus the same chances to get hurt at work for a taxi/Uber driver? The chances are heavily stacked against drivers, don't they?
> So, Uber not covering drivers' injuries, medications and medical care is as viciously ludicrous as its infamous advertising to pax that the tips are included in the fare.
> So, as an IC, being denied any benefits, overtime pay and medical coverage by its "parner" Uber, a.k.a. the most lying, deceiving and unscrupulous corporation in the world, a responsible and pragmatic person wouldn't "save" on insurance coverage, or would he?
> 
> Well, a responsible and pragmatic individual won't drive for Uber anyways.


Well said!! Lets get ready for the 'whoosoosh' in California - that'll be the sound of the Uber drivers putting the 'not for hire ' sign up.. maybe that will help Uber 'bust a move' ?


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## Older Chauffeur

It looks to me like State Farm is giving existing customers a break to do limited for hire driving, while reserving the right to refuse to take on customers (new business) who are involved in commercial/livery/rideshare activities. There was another post a while back that mentioned the fifty percent thing ( may have been Farmers.) But, as has been pointed out, it would be pretty hard to keep your U/L miles low enough to make that limit unless you do a lot of personal mileage. And how can you do a lot of personal miles if you're spending all your time trying to make a living ridesharing?


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## KevinH

_"Overwhelming majority of injuries sustained by drivers on the job derive from an auto accidents, don't they?"_

Workers compensation rates in California for commercial drivers of all types are 20% of driver pay. That's 20 cents per payroll dollar. That rate is among the highest categories such as construction, commercial fishing, etc. The majority of work related claims for commercial drivers is actually back related injuries. These come from either moving cargo, (luggage in our cases) and long periods of sitting, lack of exercise etc. Easy to verify on the web.


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## Huberis

HoverCraft1 said:


> Well said!! Lets get ready for the 'whoosoosh' in California - that'll be the sound of the Uber drivers putting the 'not for hire ' sign up.. maybe that will help Uber 'bust a move' ?


The catch of Mike B's statement is that currently, rideshare drivers are considered to be Independent contractors. That status would need to change and it seems like there is a real, fighting chance for that to happen.


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## zombieguy

Actually reading what State Farm says, as long as your occupation is not listed as driver and you are not considered full time, which defined by the Gov't is working more than 30 hours a week, you are OK to drive and not be cancelled for Ubering. So lets say you have an accident that is your fault or not, State Farm may ask Uber to see how many hours per week you are driving to see if you are driving full time.


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## Yarrick

I confirmed with Progressive tonight that this is also what they are doing. Personal use you get your normal coverage, using it for Uber you have nothing while in use for that reason. So once the app is on Uber is your only support for damage to your car, yourself and other people...so whatever that is....


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## Fstampaholic

nikb said:


> He gave me a call, cause I have several policies with them, and had to take my one car off when I started rideshare driving. We talked for a bit a while back about how he was hoping State Farm would give some options for drivers. He called me today to tell me that an internal memo was sent out last week saying that as long as livery wasn't the main use of the vehicle (as in, as long as less than 50% of your miles are used for ridesharing) State Farm has decided that using a car for ridesharing as a secondary activity is not grounds for cancellation or denial of coverage as long as any filed claims do not involve the rideshare activity at the time of incident, in which case, the Uber or Lyft insurance would cover.
> 
> I went in to talk to him, and read the memo myself (though he was unable to give me a copy, since it was internal.)
> 
> Any State Farm customers driving part-time would be well advised to call their agent, and check with them, don't just trust me. But I'm definitely switching back. I'm not thrilled with the whole dealing with James River thing if an accident happens, but I'm sure glad to know that I won't be dropped and the $200 I'll be saving every month now that I'm dropping my commercial coverage is just gonna go into my savings, just in case.


I live in Florida and spoke with my State Farm agent today (9-14-15) about using my personal vehicle for ride sharing with Uber. I was told if I was "carry persons for a charge" I would not be covered under my personal policy and also would be subject to cancellation if caught doing so. They currently don't offer a commercial policy for ride sharing. They may offer something in the near future, but for now the risk are just too high for me. Good luck to all who do have coverage. Hopefully State Farm will jump on board soon. Geico also told me no if living in Florida. Uber kindly deleted my account today with no questions asked. Hope to be back in the very near future.


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## zombieguy

Fstampaholic said:


> I live in Florida and spoke with my State Farm agent today (9-14-15) about using my personal vehicle for ride sharing with Uber. I was told if I was "carry persons for a charge" I would not be covered under my personal policy and also would be subject to cancellation if caught doing so. They currently don't offer a commercial policy for ride sharing. They may offer something in the near future, but for now the risk are just too high for me. Good luck to all who do have coverage. Hopefully State Farm will jump on board soon. Geico also told me no if living in Florida. Uber kindly deleted my account today with no questions asked. Hope to be back in the very near future.


The issue isn't about coverage. We all know that state farm won't cover rideshare activity. There is a difference between denying a claim and what is grounds for terminating a policy. Let's say you took your vehicle off road and hit a rock and break the axle. Would state farm cover that claim? Probably not but would they cancel your policy? If you were driving on the road and hit a pothole and broke the axle they would cover that. Alot of agents mistake not paying a claim and covering Uber driving to mean you can't do it and you will be canceled if you do when that simply isn't true. You can do it, but they won't cover you which is where Uber insurance kicks in anyway. I spoke to 3 different Allstate agents who all said that Allstate could not provide a policy if you drive for Uber. Finally I got a smart agent who asked the right questions to the underwriting department and confirmed that allstate would deny any claim as a result of Uber and not cover your Uber activity but driving for Uber was not grounds to terminate a policy. I read in several different places about state farms 50% rule so it sounds like your agent is using their own logic that since state farm won't write a policy to cover Uber it means you can't do it at all and you will be canceled. I would push the agent to contact underwriting and make sure they know what they are talking about as well as contact other agents and see what they say. Agents are lazy and they don't ask the right questions. Some are just flat out stupid. I talked to a State Farm agent that didn't even know what Uber was. REALLY? Are you ****ing kidding me?


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## fowler800

zombieguy said:


> The issue isn't about coverage. We all know that state farm won't cover rideshare activity. There is a difference between denying a claim and what is grounds for terminating a policy. Let's say you took your vehicle off road and hit a rock and break the axle. Would state farm cover that claim? Probably not but would they cancel your policy? If you were driving on the road and hit a pothole and broke the axle they would cover that. Alot of agents mistake not paying a claim and covering Uber driving to mean you can't do it and you will be canceled if you do when that simply isn't true. You can do it, but they won't cover you which is where Uber insurance kicks in anyway. I spoke to 3 different Allstate agents who all said that Allstate could not provide a policy if you drive for Uber. Finally I got a smart agent who asked the right questions to the underwriting department and confirmed that allstate would deny any claim as a result of Uber and not cover your Uber activity but driving for Uber was not grounds to terminate a policy. I read in several different places about state farms 50% rule so it sounds like your agent is using their own logic that since state farm won't write a policy to cover Uber it means you can't do it at all and you will be canceled. I would push the agent to contact underwriting and make sure they know what they are talking about as well as contact other agents and see what they say. Agents are lazy and they don't ask the right questions. Some are just flat out stupid. I talked to a State Farm agent that didn't even know what Uber was. REALLY? Are you ****ing kidding me?


I just started driving for Uber. It has just now moved to this area ( southwest Ohio) and not very many people know what it is all about! Most of my rides are students from other areas of the country where Uber is widely used. (yes- we are a little slow on the uptake around here!!) I am the only driver I know of in this town-and the only one my insurance agent has heard of. I use State Farm. He checked on my coverage and said I am covered as long as I Uber under 50% of the time and mileage. In my case, I am retired and drive some for extra cash. I use my vehicle for personal use more than for business use. I can see where in an area that lives in the 21st century, Uber might actually be a full time job. In that case commercial insurance would be necessary.


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## baabootoo

I've been driving 2 months, ans just found this forum. By default, won't we have more miles NON-commercially? I always seem to dead head on the way back from a fare, so adding in my personal miles, I'll usually have many more personal than commercial, or am I missing something?


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## observer

baabootoo said:


> I've been driving 2 months, ans just found this forum. By default, won't we have more miles NON-commercially? I always seem to dead head on the way back from a fare, so adding in my personal miles, I'll usually have many more personal than commercial, or am I missing something?


Deadheading from a fare is not personal miles.


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## observer

^^^^^No matter what Uber tells you.


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## Huberis

baabootoo said:


> I've been driving 2 months, ans just found this forum. By default, won't we have more miles NON-commercially? I always seem to dead head on the way back from a fare, so adding in my personal miles, I'll usually have many more personal than commercial, or am I missing something?


Running empty is part of doing business. The idea that drivers never drive during phase 1 is something I would question. If a driver is going for a guarantee, they need to have the app on 50 of 60 minutes typically. That insures phase 1 driving alone. Plenty of people no doubt go out and run errands with the hope of grabbing a call and breaking up their chores. In my town, I routinely seem Uber driver's lapping the town. I can't imagine they don't have the app on.

Rather than say commercial versus personal miles (personal miles you simply aren't driving for Uber), I look at metered versus non metered miles. I always hope for at least 50% metered miles, but would expect to have 55 to 60% of my miles to be metered. The longer the trip, the closer to 50% you will be, but the actual number of paid miles is likely to be quite high for the shift. If a driver needs to rethink or question his willingness to do a trip of moderate length, the rates are probably too low and he is being jerked around. The more you need to truly micromanage, the more likely it is that you are being jerked around in terms of rates period.

Keep track of your metered to non metered miles for a week or two and get back to us. Look for patterns.


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## fowler800

baabootoo said:


> I've been driving 2 months, ans just found this forum. By default, won't we have more miles NON-commercially? I always seem to dead head on the way back from a fare, so adding in my personal miles, I'll usually have many more personal than commercial, or am I missing something?


I think it has to do with whether you are "online" or not. The way I understand it, Uber insurance takes care of accidents you have while a passenger is in your car. Your personal car insurance takes care of you if you have an accident while you are NOT online or driving for Uber. The gray area (for me) is when you are driving while you are online, but not carrying a passenger. My agent told me that determining whether Uber miles are over 50% of your miles driven would be very difficult to do. Maybe someone else could explain the gray area a little better.


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## Depressed Dervish

Went to State Farm today in Michigan, they rang their claims line and were told No coverage at all.


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## Huberis

fowler800 said:


> I think it has to do with whether you are "online" or not. The way I understand it, Uber insurance takes care of accidents you have while a passenger is in your car. Your personal car insurance takes care of you if you have an accident while you are NOT online or driving for Uber. The gray area (for me) is when you are driving while you are online, but not carrying a passenger. My agent told me that determining whether Uber miles are over 50% of your miles driven would be very difficult to do. Maybe someone else could explain the gray area a little better.


Determining how much or how little of your miles were in fact for Travis could be avenue for insurance companies to deny coverage. I would assume it could as much be up to the driver to prove they are in compliance, as it would be for the insurance company having to prove a driver is out of compliance.

In the event of a claim, is a driver going to be tasked with proof their car is mostly used for personal purposes? Hard to know.


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## amazingdriver

I just checked with State Farm Insurance in Medina, Ohio. They said if I get in an accident driving for Uber it would not be covered. They also do not offer rideshare insurance. From what I can tell Uber offeres insurance as part of the fee that customer's pay. Is that correct? Do must drivers in Ohio have a rideshare insurance policy?

thanks,
Patti in Medina, Ohio


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## Huberis

amazingdriver said:


> I just checked with State Farm Insurance in Medina, Ohio. They said if I get in an accident driving for Uber it would not be covered. They also do not offer rideshare insurance. From what I can tell Uber offeres insurance as part of the fee that customer's pay. Is that correct? Do must drivers in Ohio have a rideshare insurance policy?
> 
> thanks,
> Patti in Medina, Ohio


Are you already driving? James River is Uber's insurance partner. For the most part, the insurance is geared to cover pax and 3rd party liability. The coverage of your car in an accident should you be at fault is secondary at best. During phase one of Uber driving, You are pretty much sol as far as collison goes.


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## zombieguy

Do you people even read the posts in the thread? Claims doesn't write the policy, they process claims. It's not about getting coverage for rideshare, they won't cover it, it's about will they drop you and they won't drop you. Not covering a claim and grounds for terminating a policy are 2 different things.


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## Gainesville Guy

Chipper said:


> I'm with State Farm in Florida. I may call an agent to inquire but not my agent. Don't need to draw attention to myself.


I have State Farm in Florida and was told by my agent I was NOT cover in for hire activities. Then an Uber chat guy told me I was totally uninsured by Uber. the rideshare guy clarified things somewhat but I am still very concerned by not having coverage. Too much to lose.


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## observer

Gainesville Guy said:


> I have State Farm in Florida and was told by my agent I was NOT cover in for hire activities. Then an Uber chat guy told me I was totally uninsured by Uber. the rideshare guy clarified things somewhat but I am still very concerned by not having coverage. Too much to lose.


So, who do you believe? Your insurance agent or some guy on youtube?


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## Gainesville Guy

Simple. I believe my insurance agent and the guy from Uber that told me I was totally uninsured.


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## Mike T

nikb said:


> He gave me a call, cause I have several policies with them, and had to take my one car off when I started rideshare driving. We talked for a bit a while back about how he was hoping State Farm would give some options for drivers. He called me today to tell me that an internal memo was sent out last week saying that as long as livery wasn't the main use of the vehicle (as in, as long as less than 50% of your miles are used for ridesharing) State Farm has decided that using a car for ridesharing as a secondary activity is not grounds for cancellation or denial of coverage as long as any filed claims do not involve the rideshare activity at the time of incident, in which case, the Uber or Lyft insurance would cover.
> 
> I went in to talk to him, and read the memo myself (though he was unable to give me a copy, since it was internal.)
> 
> Any State Farm customers driving part-time would be well advised to call their agent, and check with them, don't just trust me. But I'm definitely switching back. I'm not thrilled with the whole dealing with James River thing if an accident happens, but I'm sure glad to know that I won't be dropped and the $200 I'll be saving every month now that I'm dropping my commercial coverage is just gonna go into my savings, just in case.


Protect yourself!!! Get a copy of that memo. State Farm has stated they will not cover ridesharing.


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## michael t

Just checked with my agent in NC. If I drive under 50% for rideshare they won't change my policy. If I have the app on when driving I'm not covered at all. There are not any hybrid policies for rideshare in NC that I am aware of.


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## Older Chauffeur

michael t said:


> Just checked with my agent in NC. If I drive under 50% for rideshare they won't change my policy. If I have the app on when driving I'm not covered at all. There are not any hybrid policies for rideshare in NC that I am aware of.


Sorry, but I'm a bit confused. If they aren't covering you when the app is on, why would they even care about the percentage of rideshare driving you do? So anytime you are driving for Uber you have no coverage for injuries to yourself or damage to your car, correct? That's the way I interpret Uber's graph explaining their coverage in periods 1,2 and 3.


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## michael t

That's basically correct. The way I understand it is if you are in phase one you better be parked somewhere where nothing can touch your car otherwise you're liable. Doesn't Uber cover injuries for everyone in the vehicle for phase 2 and 3?

They use the 50% rule because if you drive more than that they want you get a commerical policy which runs about $3k a year based on what they told me.


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## Older Chauffeur

michael t said:


> That's basically correct. The way I understand it is if you are in phase one you better be parked somewhere where nothing can touch your car otherwise you're liable. Doesn't Uber cover injuries for everyone in the vehicle for phase 2 and 3?
> 
> They use the 50% rule because if you drive more than that they want you get a commerical policy which runs about $3k a year based on what they told me.


Yeah, I get your point- better turn off the app as soon as you drop, turn it back on when you are parked. But then you still have no coverage from your insurer or Uber's, just reduced risk. If an uninsured driver hits your parked car, you're up a creek.

The way I read it, the driver is never covered for injury by Uber's policy; only the pax and people in other vehicles, pedestrians, etc.

Okay, I still don't get their attitude about Ubering. They won't cover you at all if you're basically part time- no risk to them. But they want to sell you commercial insurance that you would really only need for Period 1, (Uber is primary in Periods 2 & 3) for a huge premium if you drive full time. Only slightly higher risk than a personal policy, with you driving more miles, but no pax to go after coverage for injuries. They would only be on the hook if you were extremely negligent and maybe someone died. Add in a sympathetic jury that would award more than Uber's one million, and then they might have to pay out. Not a very likely scenario, but I guess it could happen.


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## Sueron

Chipper said:


> Im with State Farm in Florida. I may call an agent to inquire but not my agent. Don't need to draw attention to myself.


When you call State Farm. If you have personal insurance on you're car (which you do), as of this year you can buy commercial insurance that covers ride share. Here in Alabama it cost me an additional $150.00/6mo ($25.00 a month, well worth it, as I carry the highest coverage). DON'T take the word of somebody in the office, ask them to check with underwriting. My wife retired from State Farm as a auto claims adjuster after 32 years  No matter who covers your auto, always ask them to check with underwriting about ride share coverage. My Uber app is on from when I get up till I turn in, sometimes as late as 4:00 am.


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## Ck45202

gprimr1 said:


> I'm going to see State Farm Monday and see what they will offer. I'm interested.


I have state farm... its good rideshare as well as personal insurance... its the cheapest and in my opinion the best you can get in pa as of right now.... Allstate has a great rideshare ins but its not available in PA yet


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## Trebor

nikb said:


> He gave me a call, cause I have several policies with them, and had to take my one car off when I started rideshare driving. We talked for a bit a while back about how he was hoping State Farm would give some options for drivers. He called me today to tell me that an internal memo was sent out last week saying that as long as livery wasn't the main use of the vehicle (as in, as long as less than 50% of your miles are used for ridesharing) State Farm has decided that using a car for ridesharing as a secondary activity is not grounds for cancellation or denial of coverage as long as any filed claims do not involve the rideshare activity at the time of incident, in which case, the Uber or Lyft insurance would cover.
> 
> I went in to talk to him, and read the memo myself (though he was unable to give me a copy, since it was internal.)
> 
> Any State Farm customers driving part-time would be well advised to call their agent, and check with them, don't just trust me. But I'm definitely switching back. I'm not thrilled with the whole dealing with James River thing if an accident happens, but I'm sure glad to know that I won't be dropped and the $200 I'll be saving every month now that I'm dropping my commercial coverage is just gonna go into my savings, just in case.


50%? I am what you would call a long commute to and from my regular job (30 miles) and I would feel very uncomfortable calling it a day. On a weekend day, I'll put 300 miles on my car which is more than 50%. I think the commercial insurance at $200 a month is worth keeping. Plus, you can pick up private passengers.


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## TaroTeaFan

I think it's always a good idea to compare more companies before you settle down on one because insurance quotes are not predictable. There's no formula that one is better than the other.


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## SFAgentKyle

TaroTeaFan said:


> I think it's always a good idea to compare more companies before you settle down on one because insurance quotes are not predictable. There's no formula that one is better than the other.


Comparing is good.. Keep in mind there are some significant differences in coverage between the personal auto insurance companies. No such thing as apples to apples in rideshare insurance. I'd like to say there are some clear differences that make certain policies better than others for certain (most) drivers.

Speaking of comparing... give us a call (877) 355-1009


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## Telsa34

Chipper said:


> Im with State Farm in Florida. I may call an agent to inquire but not my agent. Don't need to draw attention to myself.


Please follow up I would call and not offer your name .


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## SFAgentKyle

Telsa34 said:


> Please follow up I would call and not offer your name .


State Farm recently started offering coverage in Florida... I'd suggest calling Agent Christopher Tighe at 561-965-2588 if you have questions.


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## Christine63

nikb said:


> He gave me a call, cause I have several policies with them, and had to take my one car off when I started rideshare driving. We talked for a bit a while back about how he was hoping State Farm would give some options for drivers. He called me today to tell me that an internal memo was sent out last week saying that as long as livery wasn't the main use of the vehicle (as in, as long as less than 50% of your miles are used for ridesharing) State Farm has decided that using a car for ridesharing as a secondary activity is not grounds for cancellation or denial of coverage as long as any filed claims do not involve the rideshare activity at the time of incident, in which case, the Uber or Lyft insurance would cover.
> 
> I went in to talk to him, and read the memo myself (though he was unable to give me a copy, since it was internal.)
> 
> Any State Farm customers driving part-time would be well advised to call their agent, and check with them, don't just trust me. But I'm definitely switching back. I'm not thrilled with the whole dealing with James River thing if an accident happens, but I'm sure glad to know that I won't be dropped and the $200 I'll be saving every month now that I'm dropping my commercial coverage is just gonna go into my savings, just in case.


I'm in Minnesota and I just got my rideshare endorsement from my State farm agent. It's an additional $8.00 a month.


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## Vaseag

SFAgentKyle said:


> State Farm recently started offering coverage in Florida... I'd suggest calling Agent Christopher Tighe at 561-965-2588 if you have questions.


I called them and they couldn't find an agent for my zip code

Is the $250 a month is right price for rideshare policy ?

My premium insurance with Geico is $600 x 6 months


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