# Uber admits driver 'dissatisfaction' and workplace culture are IPO risk factors



## Tom Oldman (Feb 2, 2019)

Sorry, I tried just to coy/ paste to avoid the ads but it's just infested and hard to go around. Here is the link:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/11/uber-ipo-risk-factors


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## SLuz (Oct 20, 2016)

From the article
*(Disgruntled drivers*

The giant elephant in the room with Uber has always been its treatment of drivers, which it has long classified as "independent contractors", making them ineligible for minimum wage, overtime, worker's compensation insurance and other benefits. In the disclosures, Uber notes that if it is forced to start classifying drivers as employees, it will have to "fundamentally change" its business model.

The company acknowledges that many of its drivers are unhappy, writing: "While we aim to provide an earnings opportunity comparable to that available in retail, wholesale, or restaurant services or other similar work, we continue to experience dissatisfaction with our platform from a significant number of Drivers."

And it points out that it is likely to make the drivers even more unhappy in the future, both because it is investing in autonomous vehicles to reduce the numbers of drivers it needs, and because it plans to reduce payments to drivers in order to increase its chances of turning a profit: "As we aim to reduce Driver incentives to improve our financial performance, we expect Driver dissatisfaction will generally increase.")


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

*And it points out that it is likely to make the drivers even more unhappy in the future, both because it is investing in autonomous vehicles to reduce the numbers of drivers it needs, and because it plans to reduce payments to drivers in order to increase its chances of turning a profit: "As we aim to reduce Driver incentives to improve our financial performance, we expect Driver dissatisfaction will generally increase.")*


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## JaredJ (Aug 7, 2015)

ugh. this makes me nauseous. i'm anticipating grandfathered commission splits and current splits will be reduced.


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## Michael1230nj (Jun 23, 2017)

How low can they go? There's a point where drivers will not be able to drive. In many cases that point has been reached.

They say that If Driver classification shifts from independent to Employee it will change entire business model.


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

independent contractor is way better, keep it that way. you can write off miles, work when you want, not accept pool.....being an employee will ruin that. What I fear is they will never increase the rate per mile, just increase the cut uber takes from the driver as their growth is somewhat based on giving dirt cheap rides


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## 125928 (Oct 5, 2017)

dnlbaboof said:


> independent contractor is way better, keep it that way. you can write off miles, work when you want, not accept pool.....being an employee will ruin that. What I fear is they will never increase the rate per mile, just increase the cut uber takes from the driver as their growth is somewhat based on giving dirt cheap rides


Uber can increase what drivers receive per mile, by lowering what Uber earns per trip. These self driving vehicles will see limited rollout in big cities. Uber will still need real people to drive to earn profit.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

SLuz said:


> The company acknowledges that many of its drivers are unhappy, writing: "While we aim to provide an earnings opportunity comparable to that available in retail, wholesale, or restaurant services or other similar work, we continue to experience dissatisfaction with our platform from a significant number of Drivers."


This is corporate code for "we only want them to make minimum wage no matter how much revenue they are generating".

IOW they want to charge the passenger $100 but pay you $5.



Michael1230nj said:


> How low can they go? There's a point where drivers will not be able to drive. In many cases that point has been reached.
> 
> They say that If Driver classification shifts from independent to Employee it will change entire business model.


I know I have already been losing lots of motivation. Absent a long 45+ trip it really doesn't seem worth it anymore. I don't see the point of giving a bunch of $3-$5 rides. Especially not with gas going up. My profits are miniscule on these trips and unfortunately most of the trips they try to give me are these crap runs.



SatMan said:


> *And it points out that it is likely to make the drivers even more unhappy in the future, both because it is investing in autonomous vehicles to reduce the numbers of drivers it needs, and because it plans to reduce payments to drivers in order to increase its chances of turning a profit: "As we aim to reduce Driver incentives to improve our financial performance, we expect Driver dissatisfaction will generally increase.")*


But leave it to the idiots here to not support a union or trade organization because tthe GOP tells them it is "Socialism". Yeah, so let's just all work for 30 cents a mile then, eh?


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## 1.5xorbust (Nov 22, 2017)

As soon as there is a shortage of drivers Uber will raise the rates.


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## blondebaedc (Mar 21, 2019)

The New York Times had an article about this today as well: https://nyti.ms/2VKYROJ


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## Tbc007 (Aug 10, 2017)

The future of Uber is dependent on drivers paying Uber for the privilege to drive pax and food around.


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## Pegasus (Oct 27, 2018)

Michael1230nj said:


> How low can they go? There's a point where drivers will not be able to drive. In many cases that point has been reached.
> 
> They say that If Driver classification shifts from independent to Employee it will change entire business model.


This is already underway here in the UK. Read: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/dec/19/uber-loses-appeal-over-driver-employment-rights

The Court of Appeal in London granted leave to further appeal this majority decision, and the case now moves to the Supreme Court.

We shall see what happens. AFAIK the first case of its kind involving UBER.


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## amazinghl (Oct 31, 2018)

<<<
Yup, found my point. As long as they are ants out there, *Uber can and will go lower *with pay.



Michael1230nj said:


> How low can they go? There's a point where drivers will not be able to drive. In many cases that point has been reached.


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

Achieving loyalty with both the drivers as well as the passengers are the keys to Uber's future success. Failure to do this could definitely mean failure to the enterprise.

If Uber could sign the pax to longterm contracts and impose involuntary servitude on the drivers, that could resolve these problems. But actual implementation of these ideas poses problems too.


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## Superuser (Nov 6, 2017)

The price of fuel has been constantly going up so we are already making less. If Uber drops the driver pay, this gig will definatley not be
worth it. But you still have thousands of Uber ants that will drive for any amount. Wow, It just keeps getting better and better.


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## applesvt (Dec 14, 2017)

they are in the business of making mone and now making money for shareholders. Any compnay that is publiclay traded has that goal in mind, make money for the shareholders. Tthey don't care how they do it. this is not surprising at all.


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## Toocutetofail (Sep 14, 2018)

touberornottouber said:


> This is corporate code for "we only want them to make minimum wage no matter how much revenue they are generating".
> 
> IOW they want to charge the passenger $100 but pay you $5.
> 
> ...


Los Angeles and Orange County forum is full of Uber corporate shills or employees whose sole purpose is to have drivers internalize Uber BS


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## sadboy (Jul 15, 2016)

They can go as low as they want, ants will be ants...
People will do just about anything out of desperation....


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## UberIsAllFubared (Feb 24, 2016)

father of unicorns said:


> Uber can increase what drivers receive per mile, by lowering what Uber earns per trip. These self driving vehicles will see limited rollout in big cities. Uber will still need real people to drive to earn profit.


Bahahahahaha driverless cars are DECADES away.


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

sadboy said:


> They can go as low as they want, ants will be ants...
> People will do just about anything out of desperation....


I don't know about this. I have a feeling that this may just be a fad.

When I was driving a cab, it was in post-steel-collapse Pittsburgh where jobs were hard to find. Many of my age peers skipped town.

But Yellow Cab had a helluva time keeping warm bodies behind the wheels of their taxis. I did not do bad at all, I was using their vehicle, everyone tipped and the payments were all in cash. No GPS, the supervision was minimal.

For some reason, hacking was just something people didn't want to do.

Uber made driving people around so popular that they are willing to use their family cars as cabs in record numbers.

But that popularity is likely to fade, just like those who invested in the Beanie Baby fad of the late 1990's for their retirement found out when that bubble bursted.


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## Retired Senior (Sep 12, 2016)

And despite this, when I was fiddling with my phone to go offline with Uber, I got a full screen post informing me that for being a dependable driver working long and crazy hours, *I would be receiving a gift of $100 placed into my account *sometime during the last week of April.

I am very surprised, because although I feel I am a hard working Uber driver, my rating is currently 4.79. This could be because I tend to leave the app running online when I get some grub or hunt for a toilet. So my acceptance rate is lower than it could be. Also, even tho I try hard to be non-offensive, if a rider asks me a political or religious question I won't sugarcoat my opinion. I don't argue or debate my opinion, I simply state it and then say something like "these are topics of discussion that Uber wishes we would not indulge in." And I change the topic or put on Tom Petty (who doesn't like Tom Petty!)

Self driving cars will not make their way into the greater Bridgeport Ct area anytime soon. I'm 66 years old. I am not going to actually "worry" about it, but it IS fun to talk about the way these autonomous vehicles could change our lives.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Retired Senior said:


> Also, even tho I try hard to be non-offensive, if a rider asks me a political or religious question I won't sugarcoat my opinion. I don't argue or debate my opinion, I simply state it and then say something like "these are topics of discussion that Uber wishes we would not indulge in." And I change the topic or put on Tom Petty (who doesn't like Tom Petty!)


By stating and then flipping on the music it actually sends a rude message in my opinion. Kind of like you are dismissing their perspective. It is much better to offer a very polite form of argumentation so long as the passenger is willing to go that route. Of course, don't bring up politics, but if the passenger sincerely asks my opinion I give it to them and if they disagree I politely provide my reasons. The key is to continually gauge and not to push too far when it becomes obvious the pax is frustrated. It is also good to be a very good listener. Never frustrate the pax. Avoid insulting the passenger's intelligence, or using ad hominem attacks against him or anyone that represents him. These rides almost never result in a rating drop for me, but I am a very experienced debater.

Yesterday alone I disagreed with one rider's politics and one rider's politics, AND his religion. I got an in-app tip and a handshake from both of them. Yesterday I did 27 rides and only one 4 star rating showed up and you have to rate to give a tip so unless one of those guys gave me a 4 and a tip, the 4 star rating was probably from someone else.

Of course, your insistence against sugar coating probably isn't ideal, especially when it comes to religion. When it comes to religion I sometimes want to tell people their whole religion is dumb but that's obviously the wrong approach. I can nicely say I disagree with something, or indicate a contradiction as I see it.

Of course if a passenger simply states their political opinion without asking mine, I usually won't share mine unless they seem open to it. I usually will just kind of pretend not to be that engaged in politics if I disagree with their opinion, unless they really press me for my opinion. I will also sometimes claim ignorance.


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## 125928 (Oct 5, 2017)

UberIsAllFubared said:


> Bahahahahaha driverless cars are DECADES away.


Maybe, but Aptive has a ton of them driving around Vegas. Not completely driverless, they do have an operator and technician in the front.


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## Michael1230nj (Jun 23, 2017)

It can’t get much lower. Uber realizes this. At some point your car breaks down and you don’t have the money to fix it. It’s going to get better. It has to,it can’t get much worse.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

father of unicorns said:


> Maybe, but Aptive has a ton of them driving around Vegas. Not completely driverless, they do have an operator and technician in the front.


Cool. "Driverless" cars with TWO humans.


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## OldBay (Apr 1, 2019)

I_Like_Spam said:


> But that popularity is likely to fade, just like those who invested in the Beanie Baby fad of the late 1990's for their retirement found out when that bubble bursted.


Very likely Lyft will decline in popularity and be bought by Uber. They are competing on price, that can't continue forever.

I have a hard time fathoming how Uber can't be profitable. The app, operations, customer support are tiny expenditures compared to the money made from each ride. Unless they are fighting constant legal battles and the money goes to their legal team.


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

father of unicorns said:


> Maybe, but Aptive has a ton of them driving around Vegas. Not completely driverless, they do have an operator and technician in the front.


Yeah, with absolutely no evidence of actually being true.

No videos whatsoever. Somehow no riders have taken video of their trips. What a surprise.



goneubering said:


> Cool. "Driverless" cars with TWO humans.


Yeah, they went from an already unprofitable business model where they had no employee drivers and no cars to maintain and pay for, to two employee drivers and $100,000 cars they gotta maintain. lol

lol anything to not let those pesky "independent contractor" drivers make any real money lmao


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

OldBay said:


> Very likely Lyft will decline in popularity and be bought by Uber. They are competing on price, that can't continue forever.
> 
> I have a hard time fathoming how Uber can't be profitable. The app, operations, customer support are tiny expenditures compared to the money made from each ride. Unless they are fighting constant legal battles and the money goes to their legal team.


Uber is in hundreds of jurisdictions, all with different codes and policies in regards to rides for hire. Keeping it all legal is a task.

The other problems are in driver loyalty and passenger loyalty. Drivers can switch to different services, as well as passengers very easily. Drivers can come to the conclusion that driving is for the birds and do something else.


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## warsaw (Apr 8, 2017)

I_Like_Spam said:


> Uber is in hundreds of jurisdictions, all with different codes and policies in regards to rides for hire. Keeping it all legal is a task.
> 
> The other problems are in driver loyalty and passenger loyalty. Drivers can switch to different services, as well as passengers very easily. Drivers can come to the conclusion that driving is for the birds and do something else.


Actually, most new drivers quit after just one year for an amazing rate of 96% dropout (very high turnover rate & very costly for Uber).
The ones who continue to drive are usually former taxicab drivers or just people who're doing it part time (retirees, students, housewives, etc) or just those who're desperate (criminal records, no skills, or no employer will hire them).

Getting just one new driver onboard costs them at least $2K, if not even more money!


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

warsaw said:


> Actually, most new drivers quit after just one year for an amazing rate of 96% dropout (very high turnover rate & very costly for Uber).
> The ones who continue to drive are usually former taxicab drivers or just people who're doing it part time (retirees, students, housewives, etc) or just those who're desperate (criminal records, no skills, or no employer will hire them).
> 
> Getting just one new driver onboard costs them at least $2K, if not even more money!


Where do you get the $2000 cost for each driver acquisition?


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## warsaw (Apr 8, 2017)

goneubering said:


> Where do you get the $2000 cost for each driver acquisition?


Well. from personal experience of referring another driver, who ended up quitting after 2 months.
He completed the required 100 trips and received $1000 bonus.
I received my referral bonus of $1000 as well.
Uber had to conduct backgrounds checks and other credit checks, which are not free, plus the cost of extra support services for the new driver.
I'm not sure about their insurance, but most likely each driver is counted for insurance purposes, so extra expense.

So, basically, $2000 is about average, but bonuses do vary from region to region.

Even for a regular company to acquire any new employee it cost a lot of money and could reach almost 25% of that employee's annual salary for the first year.


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## Scott.Sul (Sep 9, 2015)

Trafficat said:


> ...Of course if a passenger simply states their political opinion without asking mine, I usually won't share mine unless they seem open to it. I usually will just kind of pretend not to be that engaged in politics if I disagree with their opinion, unless they really press me for my opinion. I will also sometimes claim ignorance.


I agree. Certain people cannot handle a political discussion without name-calling or being offended. 
Common sense isn't that common and you can't fix stupid (see, now I'm name-calling).



Retired Senior said:


> And despite this, when I was fiddling with my phone to go offline with Uber, I got a full screen post informing me that for being a dependable driver working long and crazy hours, *I would be receiving a gift of $100 placed into my account *sometime during the last week of April.
> ...


Now expect another "how do you like driving for Uber?" survey coming within the next few days. My guess is they are attempting to improve results prior to the IPO. Makes for a better headline.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

warsaw said:


> Well. from personal experience of referring another driver, who ended up quitting after 2 months.
> He completed the required 100 trips and received $1000 bonus.
> I received my referral bonus of $1000 as well.
> Uber had to conduct backgrounds checks and other credit checks, which are not free, plus the cost of extra support services for the new driver.
> ...


If you're going to only rely on your personal experience your accuracy's going to suffer. Uber's referral cost to recruit me was zero. I expect my sign up experience was more common than yours which brings the average cost way down.


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## warsaw (Apr 8, 2017)

I highly doubt that even for those drivers, who signed up on their own, the cost would be “zero “ as such. Maybe, not apparent to you, but trust me there’s a cost for acquiring new drivers.


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## itendstonight (Feb 10, 2019)

Superuser said:


> The price of fuel has been constantly going up so we are already making less. If Uber drops the driver pay, this gig will definatley not be
> worth it. But you still have thousands of Uber ants that will drive for any amount. Wow, It just keeps getting better and better.


I know drivers from war-torn countries where they made a couple bucks a day ... they feel grateful for the scraps Uber/Lyft give them! You can't compete against that!


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

warsaw said:


> I highly doubt that even for those drivers, who signed up on their own, the cost would be "zero " as such. Maybe, not apparent to you, but trust me there's a cost for acquiring new drivers.


The number of ads on the radio and TV are less than they were. But the hourly appeals for new drivers were a feature not too long ago on the radio- with the copy being read by top flight radio announcers like Hannity and George Noory. These kinds of campaigns aren't cheap, even if bounties aren't being paid.


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## jiglum (Aug 29, 2017)

1.5xorbust said:


> As soon as there is a shortage of drivers Uber will raise the rates.


No they will just raise one time bonuses to recruit new unknowing drivers


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

itendstonight said:


> I know drivers from war-torn countries where they made a couple bucks a day ... they feel grateful for the scraps Uber/Lyft give them! You can't compete against that!


They are happy for the scraps BUT like anyone else they will take the best opportunity available. They are going from bad to better but that won't stop them from seeking even better opportunities. If Uber pay is not competitive with other jobs they can get, Uber/Lyft will lose them also.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

warsaw said:


> I highly doubt that even for those drivers, who signed up on their own, the cost would be "zero " as such. Maybe, not apparent to you, but trust me there's a cost for acquiring new drivers.


That's precisely why I said "Uber's referral cost". It was zero for me which takes $2000 from your equation.


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## Michael1230nj (Jun 23, 2017)

It’s going to get better. The rates are unsustainable. The I P O is a watershed.


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## Rosalita (May 13, 2018)

Uber admits and Uber doesn't care. It's never been about the drivers. The drivers are expendable.Top level executives looking to cash out on the stock don't care about drivers. Uber and Lyft have but 3 assets: Their platforms, their driver accounts, and the pax accounts. The drivers are exploited as potential consumers for the companies Uber and Lyft partner with. Drivers are further exploited when Lyft asks them to "tell your pax to go to the XYZ website for discount ride coupons." Really? Now we're in the marketing department for Lyft and their business partners?

We all know that the platform will always carry debt. So that leaves just one place to keep cutting expenses: The drivers. They'll keep sending out those discounted coupons to the pax to keep them jumping from Uber to Lyft and back until hell freezes over. The solution for drivers will not be to unionize for a hourly wage, or turn off our apps next Friday at 4:00 p.m., or go go on strike. It will be for each driver to use the company as a stepping stone to get a better job, network with your pax, look for opportunities, and leave them in your dust.


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## cobraco (Jul 6, 2016)

father of unicorns said:


> Maybe, but Aptive has a ton of them driving around Vegas. Not completely driverless, they do have an operator and technician in the front.


I was in Chandler Az a couple of weeks ago. Downtown Chandler had a festival going on and detoured traffic through some congested areas. I saw a number of Waymo vans driving through the area, with their people drivers hands on the wheels as they navigated through the crowd. It is the sort of thing that "driverless" vehicles have a VERY hard time with. I don't know if they were testing the situation or what but thought it was interesting to see the vans in the crowd.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

cobraco said:


> I was in Chandler Az a couple of weeks ago. Downtown Chandler had a festival going on and detoured traffic through some congested areas. I saw a number of Waymo vans driving through the area, with their people drivers hands on the wheels as they navigated through the crowd. It is the sort of thing that "driverless" vehicles have a VERY hard time with. I don't know if they were testing the situation or what but thought it was interesting to see the vans in the crowd.


Very interesting update. Thx.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Uber to drivers:

-You asked for flat rate surge; we listened!
-Lower rates = higher earnings!
-Earn more with Uber Pool! 

Uber to SEC:

-Yeah, drivers hate us because we're shafting them, and they're going to hate us even more the more we do.

Funny how Uber's found itself being truthful all of a sudden. Lying to / being dishonest with the SEC could mean jail time for senior Uber management; part of me wishes Dara had tried it on with them. "Increasing losses = greater investment opportunity!"


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## DexNex (Apr 18, 2015)

Tbc007 said:


> The future of Uber is dependent on drivers paying Uber for the privilege to drive pax and food around.


Actually, you technically pay them for the service as it stands now.


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## ANT 7 (Oct 14, 2018)

Uber is simply a stock play at this point. It is not a viable business model going forward, especially with self driving cars which are decades away from overall acceptance and use, if ever.

Get the VC losses covered by the $10 Billion IPO and then create enough of a float in the market to allow the insiders and VC's to off their remaining stock before the thing tanks once and for all.


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## Driver_Down (Dec 11, 2018)

OldBay said:


> Very likely Lyft will decline in popularity and be bought by Uber. They are competing on price, that can't continue forever.
> 
> I have a hard time fathoming how Uber can't be profitable. The app, operations, customer support are tiny expenditures compared to the money made from each ride. Unless they are fighting constant legal battles and the money goes to their legal team.


It is the litigation. We are literally paying to get ourselves screwed. Every dime we make them in turn is used against us.


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## Uber1010 (Mar 25, 2019)

SLuz said:


> View attachment 311374
> 
> From the article
> *(Disgruntled drivers*
> ...


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

DexNex said:


> Actually, you technically pay them for the service as it stands now.


The argument that Uber is not a principal is now a very, very hard sell.


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## Mrbigshot (Apr 14, 2019)

SLuz said:


> View attachment 311374
> 
> From the article
> *(Disgruntled drivers*
> ...


Well, I have spoken with insiders. All I can say is that it's indeed take some time for uber to self driving vehicles. First off, government approval! Secondly, people buying the new idea. I look forward for a better change.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

amazinghl said:


> <<<
> Yup, found my point. As long as they are ants out there, *Uber can and will go lower *with pay.


In my opinion they risk a sudden drop off of 50-80% of their drivers. Largely what is happening now is due to a lack of information but once word spreads that the drivers are only getting 40% of the fare and that the gig sucks there could be a mass exodus and a near total stop to new drivers.

Right now people are often becoming drivers because they think we easily make "thousands" per week for working part time. When word gets out that it is barely minimum wage then few will want to do it.

Even worse I have observed that morale is rapidly decreasing among veteran drivers. It seems many more drivers are openly looking for an exit including myself. As they make the deal even worse for drivers the trend will only increase.


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## RideshareDog (Feb 25, 2019)

dnlbaboof said:


> independent contractor is way better, keep it that way. you can write off miles, work when you want, not accept pool.....being an employee will ruin that. What I fear is they will never increase the rate per mile, just increase the cut uber takes from the driver as their growth is somewhat based on giving dirt cheap rides


I can't drive when I want. To do that we need demand and a lot of it. I went out today got nothing for 40min so I came home. Saying u can drive when you want is like saying you can eat when you want. You can smoke when you want.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

RideshareDog said:


> I can't drive when I want. To do that we need demand and a lot of it. I went out today got nothing for 40min so I came home. Saying u can drive when you want is like saying you can eat when you want. You can smoke when you want.


Perhaps a better way to say it is that you can choose when NOT to drive. You never lose your job just because you take a day off with no advance notice or permission required. A no-call no show would be very bad in a W2 job.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

Trafficat said:


> Perhaps a better way to say it is that you can choose when NOT to drive. You never lose your job just because you take a day off with no advance notice or permission required. A no-call no show would be very bad in a W2 job.


Yes but if you need money for rent and the car payment you really don't have much freedom to choose your hours because it becomes "work or be homeless". That happens more and more as the rates are cut and the average hourly earnings fall. Drivers are forced to work longer hours for the same pay which is probably just barely enough to get by.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

touberornottouber said:


> Yes but if you need money for rent and the car payment you really don't have much freedom to choose your hours because it becomes "work or be homeless". That happens more and more as the rates are cut and the average hourly earnings fall. Drivers are forced to work longer hours for the same pay which is probably just barely enough to get by.


I haven't taken a full day off in 3 months (although I have taken it easy some days, and not driven specific hours on days when I wanted to attend an entertainment event), but my car is paid off and I have enough money to buy another one with cash.

It isn't yet to the point where you need the app on the maximum number of hours permissible by law on all the best hours just to make enough to ends meet... at least not in my market.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Tom Oldman said:


> Sorry, I tried just to coy/ paste to avoid the ads but it's just infested and hard to go around. Here is the link:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/11/uber-ipo-risk-factors


One of the parts of the article that really sticks out is Uber's acknowledgement that driver pay rates are comparable to "retail" and "restaurant" workers (probably dish washers).

So here's Uber admitting that drivers are beating up their cars and risking accidents for shitty retail pay.


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## libingbing (Apr 17, 2017)

Uber says they may never turn a profit. LOL !


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## Uber1010 (Mar 25, 2019)

RideshareDog said:


> I can't drive when I want. To do that we need demand and a lot of it. I went out today got nothing for 40min so I came home. Saying u can drive when you want is like saying you can eat when you want. You can smoke when you want.


This are the best job you ever had. You come out 1 hour. You spend money for gas and others expenses. Then if nothing come up you go home then next day you come again ? of course nothing coming if you wait only 3 hours then you go mad home ....again you come out then finally you get that long distance trip they send you 100 miles away ...then 3 hours it take to come back.... At the end you get 60$ happy ending you spend one week to make nothing because those 60 are for gas and compensate the other day been out ....so you are your own boss......WORKING FOR NOTHING BETTER STAY HOME AND DO NOTHING ..


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## jenijazz (Dec 27, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> One of the parts of the article that really sticks out is Uber's acknowledgement that driver pay rates are comparable to "retail" and "restaurant" workers (probably dish washers).
> 
> So here's Uber admitting that drivers are beating up their cars and risking accidents for shitty retail pay.


Those bastards! I'm bringing a $20k piece of gear to the workplace with all the attendant expenses, time maintaining, risk, etc. The analogy to retail and busboys doesn't factor that in.


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## RideshareDog (Feb 25, 2019)

If these guys want to improve driver satisfaction without affecting their bottom line they just need to put a cap in every city. Our earnings will go up without them having to raise prices. But noooo they need to keep flooding cities with drivers.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

RideshareDog said:


> If these guys want to improve driver satisfaction without affecting their bottom line they just need to put a cap in every city. Our earnings will go up without them having to raise prices. But noooo they need to keep flooding cities with drivers.


I think they actually want drivers to make very little so that:

a) We have to stay online longer and slave away longer to pay the rent.
b) We do not have the disposable income to take advantage of other opportunities (i.e. quit).

I honestly believe that it is built in to the algorithm to limit a driver's earnings by certain time frames for whatever reason. The people who run Uber in particular have no shame or sense of ethics and seem to be prone to overengineering and controlling everything. Remember at one time drivers could see not only the name of the customer prior to accepting but also the pickup AND destination address. Over time Uber removed this. Uber is also responsible for killing the tipping culture and for initially setting the minimum fare pay to the driver ridiculously low. I believe it is both accurate and fair to say that Uber is actually malicious towards drivers. They outright wish to harm us, not help us.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

touberornottouber said:


> b) We do not have the disposable income to take advantage of other opportunities (i.e. quit).
> 
> I honestly believe that it is built in to the algorithm to limit a driver's earnings by certain time frames for whatever reason. The people who run Uber in particular have no shame or sense of ethics and seem to be prone to overengineering and controlling everything. Remember at one time drivers could see not only the name of the customer prior to accepting but also the pickup AND destination address. Over time Uber removed this. Uber is also responsible for killing the tipping culture and for initially setting the minimum fare pay to the driver ridiculously low. I believe it is both accurate and fair to say that Uber is actually malicious towards drivers. They outright wish to harm us, not help us.


Then how do you explain 94% or 96% of drivers supposedly quit each year?


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## Driver-- (Mar 24, 2019)

well low pay is going to stay longer if we dont do something about it ? We should protest at the federal MP's offices and state parliaments.We can wear masks or whatever anyone likes to keep it anonymous.Would this be a good idea?


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

Driver-- said:


> well low pay is going to stay longer if we dont do something about it ? We should protest at the federal MP's offices and state parliaments.We can wear masks or whatever anyone likes to keep it anonymous.Would this be a good idea?


Depends on what you think you'll accomplish. Uber is likely to just move out of your country in response just like they did in Singapore and Red China and Austin, Texas, USA.


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## Taxi Driver in Arizona (Mar 18, 2015)

I_Like_Spam said:


> Achieving loyalty with both the drivers as well as the passengers are the keys to Uber's future success. Failure to do this could definitely mean failure to the enterprise.
> 
> If Uber could sign the pax to longterm contracts and impose involuntary servitude on the drivers, that could resolve these problems. But actual implementation of these ideas poses problems too.


Those pesky anti-slavery laws...


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

blondebaedc said:


> The New York Times had an article about this today as well: https://nyti.ms/2VKYROJ


The article has a link to an Uber press release from April 2014, claiming $74,000-$90,000 yearly earnings for drivers.

In June of 2014, uber instituted a severe RATE CUT, followed by two more in 2015, which resulted in the horrible rates we get now.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

I'm shocked. $80?!! No way.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...-continues-to-dive-after-its-dismal-week.html
*"We believe there could be continued pressure on Lyft shares while investors wait for Uber's roadshow and dig further into the full financial metrics," analysts from Wedbush Securities wrote in a note Friday, giving Lyft a neutral rating with a 12-month price target of $80.*


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

RideshareDog said:


> If these guys want to improve driver satisfaction without affecting their bottom line they just need to put a cap in every city. Our earnings will go up without them having to raise prices. But noooo they need to keep flooding cities with drivers.


Driver caps aren't nearly enough to overcome the horrible pay rates.


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## DriverA1 (Apr 9, 2019)

touberornottouber said:


> I think they actually want drivers to make very little so that:
> 
> a) We have to stay online longer and slave away longer to pay the rent.
> b) We do not have the disposable income to take advantage of other opportunities (i.e. quit).
> ...


That last statement is really alarming, and seems to be an accurate one. Something is very very wrong with the way the company is treating its drivers. It's very disturbing to think that there are people you have never met, who profit from your labor and hardships and wish you ill. They do not have any sense of compassion, and it seems that honesty means nothing to them.Something is very very wrong with all of this.


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## Side Hustle (Mar 2, 2017)

Michael1230nj said:


> How low can they go? There's a point where drivers will not be able to drive. In many cases that point has been reached.
> 
> They say that If Driver classification shifts from independent to Employee it will change entire business model.


How low can they go. Indeed.



ANT 7 said:


> Uber is simply a stock play at this point. It is not a viable business model going forward, especially with self driving cars which are decades away from overall acceptance and use, if ever.
> 
> Get the VC losses covered by the $10 Billion IPO and then create enough of a float in the market to allow the insiders and VC's to off their remaining stock before the thing tanks once and for all.


Probably.


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## ANT 7 (Oct 14, 2018)

touberornottouber said:


> I honestly believe that it is built in to the algorithm to limit a driver's earnings by certain time frames for whatever reason. The people who run Uber in particular have no shame or sense of ethics and seem to be prone to overengineering and controlling everything. Remember at one time drivers could see not only the name of the customer prior to accepting but also the pickup AND destination address. Over time Uber removed this. Uber is also responsible for killing the tipping culture and for initially setting the minimum fare pay to the driver ridiculously low. I believe it is both accurate and fair to say that Uber is actually malicious towards drivers. They outright wish to harm us, not help us.


Agreed.

I have looked at my last few months of earnings and my hourly take is consistently between $22-25 an hour.......never lower.....never higher. The only time I can break that is when we have our annual summer event here which lasts for 10 days and 300,000 tourists come to town. Then, I easily make $400-500 a day without stopping to pee. But otherwise, it is impossible to bust out of that hourly number.

That's why I stopped doing 4AM pickups for the airport runs. I'd make $120-150 by 10AM and then sit around for the next 3-4 hours with the odd $3-5 trip here and there to keep me occupied, when I should have been earning more. Now, I start at 6 or 7AM and still always make the same amount of money in a day, in the same amount of hours, just not as quickly early on in the shift.


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## SurgeMasterMN (Sep 10, 2016)

RideshareDog said:


> If these guys want to improve driver satisfaction without affecting their bottom line they just need to put a cap in every city. Our earnings will go up without them having to raise prices. But noooo they need to keep flooding cities with drivers.


Agreed they do need a cap in every city nationwide. They need to find the balance to keep drivers happy and well fed.


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## Shawnllians (Oct 12, 2018)

Idiots, do not wanna pay a driver 15/20 $ an hour whatever... how much do they think would cost to keep a vehicle gas car wash passenger sueing them because they cannot sue the driver at fault no more. The only problem is they think people still taking the sheet they say they know they are not in control they like what they like play their games with us. I hope a lot of drivers quit do not drive rush hour so they will feel what position they are


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## 1.5xorbust (Nov 22, 2017)

In an effort to become more transparent Uber admits that some drivers might be disgruntled.


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## maxroyalty1 (Mar 8, 2017)

JaredJ said:


> ugh. this makes me nauseous. i'm anticipating grandfathered commission splits and current splits will be reduced.


Making you nauseous? Chill out dude it's just uber. Get a REAL job. Maybe even get your real estate license and make some real money. Pretty sure you'll be pushed out by automatic cars so start planning ahead now. Don't be stubborn


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## melusine3 (Jun 20, 2016)

SLuz said:


> View attachment 311374
> 
> From the article
> *(Disgruntled drivers*
> ...


"Aim to provide.... comparable to that available in retail"? So, they mean in retail the worker also buys the goods that need to be sold, along with shipping and every other expense, while the software company running the cash register also determines the price of the goods that are sold, even undercutting Walmart's prices in order to remain competitive? Yep, sounds like a plan!


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## To Mega Therion (Apr 21, 2018)

warsaw said:


> Actually, most new drivers quit after just one year for an amazing rate of 96% dropout...


Source?


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## warsaw (Apr 8, 2017)

To Mega Therion said:


> Source?











Only 4% of Uber drivers remain on the platform a year later, says report


Add to the list of problems at Uber: Driver retention.




www.cnbc.com





This report was from a couple of years ago. but the driving conditions have not changed that much.
So, I would think the dropout rate is still pretty high for new drivers, after one year.


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

There comes a point of diminishing returns as far as drivers go. In very large markets, like LA, NY, etc, the driver pool is probably limitless. But eventually, that pool will start to dry up. I believe it's kind of that way here in Salt Lake. Where since December Uber runs quests just about daily and other promos for drivers. Up until December, I never saw anything from Uber. Lyft has been blasting SLC with rider promotions/discounts for a while now. I think Uber started feeling a shift in market share and hence started running things to counter. Of course, this is all speculation. But I do not believe Uber would just run the promotions out of being nice. It's about keeping market share.

Uber can state they might have to cut fares and other things, but eventually there will be a diminishing return. It's inevitable that rates to PAX will have to increase. Uber has many marketing directions they can take when that occurs, one of which is sharing with passengers it's to raise driver pay as noted in world media as they "care" about their drivers and want them to earn a "living wage". Anyway, will see what the future holds.


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## Paulaner (May 20, 2018)

touberornottouber said:


> This is corporate code for "we only want them to make minimum wage no matter how much revenue they are generating".
> 
> IOW they want to charge the passenger $100 but pay you $5.
> 
> ...


GOP? I was just waiting for some genius to invoke Republicans/Trump into the discussion. Yeah. Lets blame Trump for Our problems in life. Lets all wait for that great commie Bernie to save us with free [email protected], right?


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

DriverMark said:


> There comes a point of diminishing returns as far as drivers go. In very large markets, like LA, NY, etc, the driver pool is probably limitless. But eventually, that pool will start to dry up. I believe it's kind of that way here in Salt Lake. Where since December Uber runs quests just about daily and other promos for drivers. Up until December, I never saw anything from Uber. Lyft has been blasting SLC with rider promotions/discounts for a while now. I think Uber started feeling a shift in market share and hence started running things to counter. Of course, this is all speculation. But I do not believe Uber would just run the promotions out of being nice. It's about keeping market share.
> 
> Uber can state they might have to cut fares and other things, but eventually there will be a diminishing return. It's inevitable that rates to PAX will have to increase. Uber has many marketing directions they can take when that occurs, one of which is sharing with passengers it's to raise driver pay as noted in world media as they "care" about their drivers and want them to earn a "living wage". Anyway, will see what the future holds.


Thx for the update. That's reasonable speculation.


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## 1.5xorbust (Nov 22, 2017)

Evidently Dara complained to upper management about having to wait more than five minutes for the pax on his two driver trips.


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## Dome (Feb 10, 2019)

SatMan said:


> *And it points out that it is likely to make the drivers even more unhappy in the future, both because it is investing in autonomous vehicles to reduce the numbers of drivers it needs, and because it plans to reduce payments to drivers in order to increase its chances of turning a profit: "As we aim to reduce Driver incentives to improve our financial performance, we expect Driver dissatisfaction will generally increase.")*


This right here is a MAJOR PROBLEM!! The real reason why they can't turn a profit is because they refuse to charge customers the real cost to provide transportation, so they instead have turned to drivers to subsidize the service provided.


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## 1.5xorbust (Nov 22, 2017)

Dome said:


> This right here is a MAJOR PROBLEM!! The real reason why they can't turn a profit is because they refuse to charge customers the real cost to provide transportation, so they instead have turned to drivers to subsidize the service provided.


And the drivers continue to subsidize for Uber's benefit. As soon as there is a shortage of drivers Uber will raise the rates.


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## 64opel (Sep 4, 2017)

1.5xorbust said:


> As soon as there is a shortage of drivers Uber will raise the rates.


There is always some ants willing to kill their cars for pennies, and after that, boom self driving cars


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## NOXDriver (Aug 12, 2018)

Mrbigshot said:


> Well, I have spoken with insiders.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Sure. The janitor must know all the secrets.

Uber has NO future. They have one confirmed kill with their 'tech' and even if they do manage to get all those 3rd world programmers to stop running over pedestrians they now have the cost of a fleet of vehicles to maintain.

Driverless cars are just another investor wet dream. The driver isn't the major expense.. the vehicle is. Do you think that a passenger, with no adult supervision, is not going vandalize and make every Uber car their own personal toilet?

Uber and Lyft are doing the same old 'race to the bottom'. Another path would be to make the ride-share experience a more premium level of comfort. Regular driver screening, vehicle inspections, cleanliness inspections etc. But the race to the bottom is cheaper and meet the 90 day short term profit goals VCs demand.

Stupidest thing a company can do is go public.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

NOXDriver said:


> Stupidest thing a company can do is go public.


That's an unusual claim. Have you ever taken a company public?


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## JBinPenfield (Sep 14, 2017)

DriverMark said:


> There comes a point of diminishing returns as far as drivers go. In very large markets, like LA, NY, etc, the driver pool is probably limitless. But eventually, that pool will start to dry up. I believe it's kind of that way here in Salt Lake. Where since December Uber runs quests just about daily and other promos for drivers. Up until December, I never saw anything from Uber. Lyft has been blasting SLC with rider promotions/discounts for a while now. I think Uber started feeling a shift in market share and hence started running things to counter. Of course, this is all speculation. But I do not believe Uber would just run the promotions out of being nice. It's about keeping market share.
> 
> Uber can state they might have to cut fares and other things, but eventually there will be a diminishing return. It's inevitable that rates to PAX will have to increase. Uber has many marketing directions they can take when that occurs, one of which is sharing with passengers it's to raise driver pay as noted in world media as they "care" about their drivers and want them to earn a "living wage". Anyway, will see what the future holds.


Around here Uber used to have 1.2 X "boosts" for a few hours on weekend nights (occasionally up to 1.4). I hadn't seen any for months, then last month they started to have "quests" where you got an extra $3 or $4 per ride for up to five rides. at first that happened on weekends, but this week they've got them every weekday, at various hours during the day, plus weekend late nights. The area covered by the quests encompasses four college areas, a big trendy neighborhood with bars and restaurants, and the 'hood - the first two of which are noted for lots of short rides with no tips, and the last of which is often surging anyway because it has a dangerous reputation and many drivers don't want to pick people up there (hence I don't spend much time in the quest zone). That and the surge patterns plus lack of ants at certain times leads me to believe that recently Uber has found itself with fewer drivers in my city than it wants and is trying to a) attract new ones and b) convince the existing ones to drive more at certain times in certain areas. That is a Good Thing, because lack of ant supply means more driver pay, one way or another. One can hope that the improving economy plus less buy-in to Uber recruitment hype is leading fewer people to drive.


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## rkozy (Apr 5, 2019)

touberornottouber said:


> Even worse I have observed that morale is rapidly decreasing among veteran drivers. It seems many more drivers are openly looking for an exit including myself. As they make the deal even worse for drivers the trend will only increase.


At some point, they will run the well dry if things continue as they are. Cars are only getting more expensive, and so is the fuel that goes in them. Some people (perhaps very bored retirees) will keep doing this for break-even money, but the folks who do this for a significant source of income will either find better opportunities, or simply lose the economic wherewithal to keep driving for Uber.

The company has a very short-sighted strategy right now. They're hoping to hold on long enough for the RoboCars to replace us all. I'm not sure they have the numbers to make something like that go the distance.


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## Uber1111uber (Oct 21, 2017)

All we can hope is that lyft goes bankrupt after it's awful ipo and only uber will be left and might actually care about drivers and can raise rates pax will pay higher rates we all know that


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## KMANDERSON (Jul 19, 2015)

dnlbaboof said:


> independent contractor is way better, keep it that way. you can write off miles, work when you want, not accept pool.....being an employee will ruin that. What I fear is they will never increase the rate per mile, just increase the cut uber takes from the driver as their growth is somewhat based on giving dirt cheap rides


They will raise the rates for the riders but keep the drivers rates the same.That direction they been going since Dara took over and it will get worse once they become public.


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## twnFM (Oct 26, 2017)

Superuser said:


> The price of fuel has been constantly going up so we are already making less. If Uber drops the driver pay, this gig will definatley not be
> worth it. But you still have thousands of Uber ants that will drive for any amount. Wow, It just keeps getting better and better.


Ants can't do math. 5 mins of putting pencil to paper will show that it's a losing venture for most, there are a few that will make money but very few.


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## No Prisoners (Mar 21, 2019)

Get ready. After IPO rates coming down drastically to cut costs. Lyft will follow. If this strike doesn't work say hello to. 45 cents x rides.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

No Prisoners said:


> Get ready. After IPO rates coming down drastically to cut costs. Lyft will follow. If this strike doesn't work say hello to. 45 cents x rides.


Uber won't care about the strike but that's okay because your company is going to take them down!! 

Or don't you remember your previous posts?


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## UberTrent9 (Dec 11, 2018)

touberornottouber said:


> This is corporate code for "we only want them to make minimum wage no matter how much revenue they are generating".
> 
> IOW they want to charge the passenger $100 but pay you $5.
> 
> ...


Next, You'll try blaming the current POTUS on anything or everything wrong with U/L



Toocutetofail said:


> Los Angeles and Orange County forum is full of Uber corporate shills or employees whose sole purpose is to have drivers internalize Uber BS


And you know this how?



The Gift of Fish said:


> Uber to drivers:
> 
> -You asked for flat rate surge; we listened!
> -Lower rates = higher earnings!
> ...


Lmao! Doubt ANYONE "asked them for flat surge", they're just making stuff up to justify them making more money.



I_Like_Spam said:


> Depends on what you think you'll accomplish. Uber is likely to just move out of your country in response just like they did in Singapore and Red China and Austin, Texas, USA.


That would NEVER happen here in L.A., too big of a market for them to simply move out.


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## comitatus1 (Mar 22, 2018)

Retired Senior said:


> And despite this, when I was fiddling with my phone to go offline with Uber, I got a full screen post informing me that for being a dependable driver working long and crazy hours, *I would be receiving a gift of $100 placed into my account *sometime during the last week of April.
> 
> I am very surprised, because although I feel I am a hard working Uber driver, my rating is currently 4.79. This could be because I tend to leave the app running online when I get some grub or hunt for a toilet. So my acceptance rate is lower than it could be. Also, even tho I try hard to be non-offensive, if a rider asks me a political or religious question I won't sugarcoat my opinion. I don't argue or debate my opinion, I simply state it and then say something like "these are topics of discussion that Uber wishes we would not indulge in." And I change the topic or put on Tom Petty (who doesn't like Tom Petty!)
> 
> Self driving cars will not make their way into the greater Bridgeport Ct area anytime soon. I'm 66 years old. I am not going to actually "worry" about it, but it IS fun to talk about the way these autonomous vehicles could change our lives.


Think it through for a minute, and everyone will realize that autonomous vehicles will be the end of Uber and Lyft.

Anyone will be able to rent such a vehicle from anyone.


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## EmOinDallas (Oct 14, 2018)

Tom Oldman said:


> Sorry, I tried just to coy/ paste to avoid the ads but it's just infested and hard to go around. Here is the link:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/11/uber-ipo-risk-factors


Yeah...I just read this article...same story, different verse. 
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/u...HMExwuckE2vEOxOMAYn622n7dwA_3y5dOgvDel1C4ytjQ


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

This is crazy.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/uber-ipo-stock-price-51556285741
*What is Uber's market capitalization?*

Uber's projected $90 billion market capitalization would make it bigger than General Motors (GM), Ford (F),Fiat Chrysler (FCAU), Tesla (TSLA),Honda (HMC), Volkswagen(VOW.Germany), Continental(CON.Germany), the entire U.S. rental car industry, and most of the aftermarket car-parts business. OnlyToyota (TM), with a market capitalization of $200 billion, is larger.


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## here2der (Jul 2, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> One of the parts of the article that really sticks out is Uber's acknowledgement that driver pay rates are comparable to "retail" and "restaurant" workers (probably dish washers).
> 
> So here's Uber admitting that drivers are beating up their cars and risking accidents for shitty retail pay.





melusine3 said:


> "Aim to provide.... comparable to that available in retail"?


What's amazing is I just saw a report not that long ago about various jobs/employment groupings had those of Retail as THE LOWEST pay and average job satisfaction of the American labor market. All the while, it wasn't that long ago you could regularly see ads soliciting drivers based on $25+/hr. and $50-90k/yr....



NOXDriver said:


> Driverless cars are just another investor wet dream. The driver isn't the major expense.. the vehicle is. Do you think that a passenger, with no adult supervision, is not going vandalize and make every Uber car their own personal toilet?


Imagine 1 million people getting into the brand new $150k apiece SDC'S grinning with the Problem Child gleam in their eye: "I hope you guys are insured!" Good times.


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## 49matrix (Feb 3, 2015)

I_Like_Spam said:


> I don't know about this. I have a feeling that this may just be a fad.
> 
> When I was driving a cab, it was in post-steel-collapse Pittsburgh where jobs were hard to find. Many of my age peers skipped town.
> 
> ...


If Uber does go public, imagine having a pissed off shareholder as a pax?


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

49matrix said:


> If Uber does go public, imagine having a pissed off shareholder as a pax?


The shareholder will be pissed off if he is losing money on his investment. That will probably be the impetus for him to ride Uber in the first place. Won't be able to afford a limo or even the city bus after taking a bath on the Uber.


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## Plain Wrap (Mar 1, 2018)

JaredJ said:


> ugh. this makes me nauseous. i'm anticipating grandfathered commission splits and current splits will be reduced.


There hasn't been "Commission Splits" since May 2017. Uber now charges the riders whatever they feel like and pays the riders whatever they feel like.


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## CoffeeAddict (Jun 3, 2018)

Rideshare will fade away, it is inevitable. Cabs will make a rebound once the Rideshare drivers fail to make enough money to cover expenses, AND when Rideshares go with self driving cars. I would never get into a self driving car, and I am betting that many other would not either.I also think that the Gov't will crack down on Rideshares because they are making jack shit on the drivers due to write offs.Gov't wants money, that is how regulations , fees, and oversight happen, not for safety, not for concern, but for money.


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## peteyvavs (Nov 18, 2015)

Uber is a lying sack of zhyt.


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