# If we are ever declared employees... Uber is doomed.



## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

http://www.wagehourinsights.com/201...penses-the-flsa-kickback-rule-wage-hour-faqs/

*Employees cannot wave their right to make minimum wage. They can come to an agreement with their employer regarding mileage and expense reimbursement but minimum wage is a right. This is why the kickback rule is in place - to ensure that employees make minimum wage even after kicking back cash to their employers in one form or another. FLSA violations such as these result in fees and back wages due to employees.*

From what i can figure out... there are specific rule for employer Kickbacks...

An employer requiring it's employees to pay for something on their behalf out of pocket,
The rule itself seems to read as...
If an employer doesn't reimburse for expenses, the employer is still required to pay minimum wage "AFTER" the employees pay is deducted, meaning, the PER MILE rate, tolls, uniforms... ect.

If uber doesn't reimburse for expenses, that reimbursed amount gets knocked off of our hourly earnings in regards to... Minimum wage....

So if we were employees and we drove an average of 20 miles in any given hour, we would need to be paid... 
$18.05 per hour for Uber to no be in violation of Federal Minimum wage laws.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

That's about right. That and then they would also have to have workmen's comp, be responsible for taking care of us after an accident. If it ever comes to that, they would fold like a cheap suit.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> http://www.wagehourinsights.com/201...penses-the-flsa-kickback-rule-wage-hour-faqs/
> 
> *Employees cannot wave their right to make minimum wage. They can come to an agreement with their employer regarding mileage and expense reimbursement but minimum wage is a right. This is why the kickback rule is in place - to ensure that employees make minimum wage even after kicking back cash to their employers in one form or another. FLSA violations such as these result in fees and back wages due to employees.*
> 
> ...


I received a check from Dominos for a class action suit related to this. In stores in crappy areas where tips sucked the drivers were not making enough to end up with minimum wage. Dominos was paying less, just like waitresses for example. But Dominos was also paying a certain amount per delivery or mile to the drivers.

They tried to say that since they were paying this it was making up the minimum wage. It was true the drivers were ending up with more than minimum wage pay, but since the mileage pay was supposed to cover expenses they argued it shouldn't be counted.

The court agreed with the drivers and said mileage reimbursement could not be used the same way tips could to count as wages.

I didn't work in a crappy store and was only part time for a couple of years when this happened , but got a $600 check anyway. Many drivers got a lot more. This was a couple years so I THINK.

It's why Dominos makes you report tips daily and will make up the difference if it doesn't come to minimum wage.

Pizza Hut also had a similar suit over tips, but they simply pay minimum wage for drivers now (at least here anyway). I got less from them though, even after working there longer. They also pay per mile or trip, separately from hours.

Neither pays what the IRS let's you deduct. Generally it will cover more than gas. I think right now my old Dominos pays 27 cents per mile. It also varies by area and they adjust with gas prices. I haven't worked there for a few months though.

I've never worked a store where I couldn't make $15 an hour delivering pizza though. So even with some mileage not reimbursed it woukd still not be below minimum wage. But bad areas can really suck.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

It's the same strategy many small and large taxi companies have been implementing for decades. Using Independent Contractors saves the business money and time.


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

Well... the thing is.. UBer is going to get hurt a lot worse by this than the cab companies will... if uber drivers were declared employees Uber would have to set rates that assure that ALL drivers will generate more revenue than a driver needs to get minimum wage, and possibly overtime in every market, every week... or that the rate averages out. But this is... the mess... that has to be taken into account for an uber driver who is mandated to have their expenses reimbursed. (and is a tipped employee, having the employees being tipped employees could save Uber A LOT of money)

Uber will have to insure that on average, all drivers are coming up with enough to make minimum wage and enough to cover taxable IRS per mile expenses (including the tip credit) Or else they will be required to PAY UP to this minimum required amount. This amount will be a floating figure that will vary drastically based on how much the driver is getting in tips and what the drivers paid mileage ratio is, and even how busy it is.

Because of the nature of uber Drivers, they will have to be reasonably sure that any driver can come on for a few hours a day and generate more revenue than uber's expenses, and enough to give the driver minimum wage and pay their expenses...
Which like $23+ an hour would be just barely enough to cover about 20 miles plus minimum wage (with overtime factored in) for the driver. Another $5 to uber for all their expenses on their end... (I scaled back booking fee.. not sure if that's needed or not)

That puts the total revenue requirement of a minimum wage uber driver at about $28 an hour... or 8.05-12:00 an hour. You can't pay the driver the 12.00 an hour unless they hit overtime because you have to increase the wage by 50% when they go into overtime...

let's compare that to a taxi with a revenue of $28 an hour for a 12 hour shift (plus an hour or so of setup/return to base time) so 11 productive hours plus another hour for setup, Right now in a company owned taxi... you can pay off a $100 daily taxi lease, drop $30 for gas and tolls.. and have about $178 left over to pay the driver, or $14 an hour.

Taxi companies will just have to make sure that the driver gets at least enough in their pocket to average out to minimum wage at the end of every week. So if a driver puts in 72 hours the company will have to ensure the driver walks home with a minimum of... 579.60, or 96.72 for a 12 hour shift.

This is... less... than what i'm making 99% of the time in a taxi.

Uber on the other hand must insure that it's drivers are paid minimum wage+ per mile expenses at least. Because reimbursed expenses can not lower an employees wages below minimum wage.

_*Unlike some state wage and hour laws, the FLSA does not expressly require the reimbursement of expenses. However, as discussed above, any expenses that reduce employees' actual compensation below the required minimum and overtime wages must be reimbursed. *_

So for Uber... they would have to pay it's drivers just for being logged on (unproductive time must be paid to employees) whenever they are on a trip driving to and on all trips.

If say... someone decides that the rate that needs to be paid to uber drivers is .54 a mile and your driving 20 miles an hour... that's $10 in untaxable expense money your getting every hour.

Then their total paid minus expenses has to equal minimum wage. Which in the market i'm in... the per-mile reimbursement can exceed the entire uberX payout for some trips. Uber will have to substantially increase rates to pay for expenses nationwide... wheras the cabs are charging high enough rates to cover expenses and leave money left over for the driver.

And then we have the question of what does it really cost to operate a vehicle to fairly reimburse the driver?

Well... That's the $1,000,000.00 question but the IRS and FLSA will probably use the IRS standard rate at the minimum or even higher numbers for highers end services (IE uber black) as they require far more expensive cars. They also won't let uber get away with not paying for "dead" Miles.

However "Surge trip" could average out cheaper trips and lower the amount that uber is paying you at the end of the week.

It may very well come to a point at which the TAXI COMPANIES... can operate for cheaper than Uber can... If Uber can survive all the lawsuits... coin toss on that if you ask me.

Orlando rates are not even enough to cover the IRS deductible rate plus minimum wage while there is a passenger in the car... let alone dead miles...

A ruling of "This independent contractor crap is BS... your ALL employees... stop this BS" could not just result in Uber having to change everything about how they operate but also swing the price advantage to the fleet owners rather than the single car owners, as fleets can be maitainted cheaper than single cars can. (and result in less downtime all around)


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

I also honestly think the taxis stand a BETTER chance at retaining the independent contractor status... as for the most part, taxi companies let their drivers do whatever to a far greater degree than uber does (Yes really) and the pay at the end of the day comes in higher than minimum wage after expenses right now... the cab companies aren't getting sued to make the drivers employees now are they?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> I also honestly think the taxis stand a BETTER chance at retaining the independent contractor status... as for the most part, taxi companies let their drivers do whatever to a far greater degree than uber does (Yes really) and the pay at the end of the day comes in higher than minimum wage after expenses right now... the cab companies aren't getting sued to make the drivers employees now are they?


I owned and operated a small 7 car taxi company for 15 years. I had 8 drivers challenge their independent contractor status over those years. About 1 every two years average. I wasn't sued in court but challenged over tax , workers comp and unemployment issues.


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## 60000_TaxiFares (Dec 3, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> I owned and operated a small 7 car taxi company for 15 years. I had 8 drivers challenge their independent contractor status over those years. About 1 every two years average. I wasn't sued in court but challenged over tax , workers comp and unemployment issues.


Taxis *have been independent contractors or owner operators* for many _decades_, only good benefit is in many cases nobody knows what you make and no 1099s giving some "flexibility" in tax issues.

Trucking companies have had *tens of millions of independent owner operators*, sometimes running the financing companies the truckers on lease or "lease to own" programs purchase their "workspace" from. The company does not provide the workspace.

Trucking companies *tell the IC's where to go*, *when to be there* , *and enforce all company and driver compliance with DOT regulations,* in _addition to sometimes financing the driver's loan for his "workplace"_. Failure to comply *could result in the Trucker's "deactivation"* and eligibility for further loads (PAX) from that particular company, leaving his business with one less minor or major customer and working his other ones (Lyft, doordash, other TNC's) .

Obviously *trucking companies get "feedback"* on how particular loads are delivered by the companies' customers. Poor feedback (complaints) may result in no more loads from that Transport company to supply the IC "running his own business". (Actually some are running a fleet of 5-10 trucks) This results in the IC's business *losing perhaps a major customer*.

Truckers, taxis, perhaps barbers and beauticians (leasing the chair) have had independent contractor status for many decades, ruled many times by courts.

Sometimes* law firms hit the "mother lode" with class action suits.* I was an (unknowing) part of a particular one.

I hear the _partners of numerous firms_ *retired *and became "*gentleman farmers*"

*I got a $7.00 check from Samsung* as one of the millions of "aggrieved parties". our system of justice, protecting the "little guy.''

I don't see any law firms *lining up to feast* on the Uber bonanza that some expect, given their maliciousness, huge size and visibility .

If deactivated from Uber you are a Dry Cleaning, transport, or other small business that has lost a major customer. Your business may suffer or collapse.

Stay Safe

CC


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> I owned and operated a small 7 car taxi company for 15 years. I had 8 drivers challenge their independent contractor status over those years. About 1 every two years average. I wasn't sued in court but challenged over tax , workers comp and unemployment issues.


Yeah and i'm betting it was all former contractors suing you?


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## Cdaley (Nov 30, 2015)

If we are labeled as employees half of us would not do it or would not be hired ! One of the best things about uber on top of the great pay for low hours is the ability to do it when you want ! If we get labeled as an employee you would have schedule and it may. It be the one that works for you! So just as uber does. It want us labeled as an employee neither should we ! Why would I want to go from $30 a hour to $10 a hour anyway that's just does not make any sense!!


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## Disgruntled (Nov 10, 2016)

You can't hurt Uber now. They've built up $67.5 BILLION dollars in the short time they've been in business and that was taken directly from us working for sub minimum wage. I am glad to see people here get it but still baffled why people here don't get it enough to stop driving for them or to try and organize and/or fight. I guess it's the same reason people slow down to look at wrecks on the other side of a divided highway.


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## 60000_TaxiFares (Dec 3, 2015)

Cdaley said:


> If we are labeled as employees half of us would not do it or would not be hired ! One of the best things about uber on top of the great pay for low hours is the ability to do it when you want ! If we get labeled as an employee you would have schedule and it may. It be the one that works for you! So just as uber does. It want us labeled as an employee neither should we ! Why would I want to go from $30 a hour to $10 a hour anyway that's just does not make any sense!!


You Fascist.
*
I want benefits*, workers comp, health plan, sick days , vacation days, *well above minimum wage* for the risk I take , unemployment insurance and Social Security taxes . Paid for like all employees.

I also want to "run my own business" and the flexibility to show up at will

Now that's not too much to ask is it? Just my _basic human right_ to a living wage and work when I feel like it.

Unionize-- Organize !! *Workers of the (TNC) world unite*! There_ is no UBER without drivers._

*Get Hoffa ,the Teamsters* or the like involved *and all your dreams will come true*.

Stay Safe

CC


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## circle1 (Sep 17, 2016)

60000_TaxiFares said:


> Taxis *have been independent contractors or owner operators* for many _decades_, only good benefit is in many cases nobody knows what you make and no 1099s giving some "flexibility" in tax issues.


If taxi contractors didn't file 1099s, what was it, w-2s?


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## circle1 (Sep 17, 2016)

Disgruntled said:


> You can't hurt Uber now. They've built up $67.5 BILLION dollars in the short time they've been in business and that was taken directly from us working for sub minimum wage. I am glad to see people here get it but still baffled why people here don't get it enough to stop driving for them or to try and organize and/or fight. I guess it's the same reason people slow down to look at wrecks on the other side of a divided highway.


It's basic Supply & Demand at work. Why is that wealthy powerful individuals can always find people who will stage "accidents" (read: murder) for a fee? There will always be people on the verge of homelessness (or just plain greedy) who desperately need the income. [present company excluded, of course ]


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

circle1 said:


> If taxi contractors didn't file 1099s, what was it, w-2s?


Many taxi companies don't file either. They collect "lease" money and declare that as income. They don't really know what the driver makes on any particular shift and they don't pay the driver directly. The driver keeps everything above the lease payment and is the only one that could know what that amount really is.


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## circle1 (Sep 17, 2016)

UberTaxPro said:


> Many taxi companies don't file either. They collect "lease" money and declare that as income. They don't really know what the driver makes on any particular shift and they don't pay the driver directly. The driver keeps everything above the lease payment and is the only one that could know what that amount really is.


. . . so that's a straight Schedule C filing, no "reporting" paper work? . . . geez, if it weren't for the dorking-looking paint jobs on taxis, I'd seriously consider going that route.


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## 60000_TaxiFares (Dec 3, 2015)

circle1 said:


> If taxi contractors didn't file 1099s, what was it, w-2s?


That is a good question. Since concerning taxes a bit complex. I'll attempt an answer. W-2 is for employees.

A *1099* , in its various forms, reports income paid from one party to another. If someone pays or even transfers money to you for a service or just collecting money on your behalf, they may file a 1099 reporting income they paid or transferred to you to the IRS. The IRS then knows that you received $X amount from entity A.

In the taxi business, the driver is running his own business in most cases. The income is transferred from the public in mostly cash fares and perhaps, credit cards to the driver.

Theoretically *the thousands of passengers could file a 1099* documenting their payment to the taxi driver but this is rarely done. The only entity knowing the income of most taxi drivers is the driver.

The cab company _does not transfer money to the driver. _ The driver transfers _money to the cab company_ , paying them lease money for the cab, or perhaps just for the radio or "finding fee" and perhaps insurance.

Come April, the driver , _could_ file a 1099 reporting what _he paid to the cab company_ that year in lease, insurance and radio fees. The IRS would then know that the cab company received X amount from that driver that tax year.

So *how much does the taxi driver make*? Did he work 20 or 80 hours that week? How much in tips? How many fares? What "app" tracks him, hrs worked, income, locations ,fares, Where is Waldo? Car 103 where are you?

This is answered by the *meticulous records kept by the driver*, recorded between semi - frequent interludes at home, in bars having a few tonic waters, or under the viaduct or behind the shop with other fellow drivers and mechanics with accounting experience _smoking special herbs and spices_ to increase everyone's alertness and productivity.

_Sometimes these sessions were held _sharing health drinks purchased by the gallon from special springs in Kentucky. One guy was drinking some while smoking and flamed up as if it were pure alcohol. I don't remember much from sessions like these . Didn't help me much in bookkeeping but they said it was made for medicinal purposes so I musta got some health benefits from it . After all they said it cost $80.00/gallon

Curiously some drivers had _frequent meetings with various females_, who while _evidently smart and *knowing a lot about accounting,*_ were frequently down on their luck and needed money for the rent and such. Probably cash flow negative _from risky business ventures_. Anyway they were pretty good with numbers , as they would organize the drivers records right on the spot in the cab and be done in less than 20 minutes! However , in some cases well less than 10. Perhaps those drivers had *their records more organized* for the lady to work with.

As you can see,_* the life of a cab driver and business *_ _is very demanding and complex_ with the *usual cash flow problems many business have*. Therefore many drivers would be *late in filing taxes* perhaps by several ..well sometimes quite late. Despite the thorough accounting sessions mentioned above, I think the numbers some drivers filed may have been bit off.

In the case of Uber, TNC's and some other independent contractors like truckers , 1099's are filed documenting what other entities paid or collected on behalf of the IC. *All income conveniently organized and reported* to the IRS relieving IC's such as TNC drivers from the accounting hassles mentioned above. *You don't know how lucky you have it.*

Anyway, I'm better at math and business than the average taxi driver and all my tax obligations were fulfilled accurately and in full..

This should probably answer most questions involving taxes and a large majority of taxi drivers.

Stay Safe

CC


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## Fireguy50 (Nov 23, 2015)

I think this applies to Uber to a point, especially for full time Driver's


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## The Mollusk (Feb 13, 2016)

Disgusted Driver said:


> That's about right. That and then they would also have to have workmen's comp, be responsible for taking care of us after an accident. If it ever comes to that, they would fold like a cheap suit.


They'd close shop faster than a technical university.


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## Fireguy50 (Nov 23, 2015)

Disgusted Driver said:


> That's about right. That and then they would also have to have workmen's comp, be responsible for taking care of us after an accident. If it ever comes to that, they would fold like a cheap suit.


Oh yes, Uber will probably pull out of markets that require employment status. If this reclassification extends to too many of their profitable markets, Uber will have to redo their business model and practices.

Real background checks.
Potential drug testing.
Potential finger printing.
Higher rates, or driver/operator setting rates.
Fare transparency.
No more deactivation for petty issues.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Uber and many taxi companies would not survive if independent contractor status was taken away. Most wouldn't even try.


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## Fireguy50 (Nov 23, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> Many taxi companies don't file either. They collect "lease" money and declare that as income. They don't really know what the driver makes on any particular shift and they don't pay the driver directly. The driver keeps everything above the lease payment and is the only one that could know what that amount really is.


Check out my pending post in complaints about setting our own rate, you'll be surprised what another company I found allows, compared to the strangle hold Uber has on us. 
https://uberpeople.net/threads/set-your-own-rates.117678/


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## circle1 (Sep 17, 2016)

60000_TaxiFares said:


> *You don't know how lucky you have it.*


Pfft!! Uh, huh.  

[Thank you for the reply]


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## circle1 (Sep 17, 2016)

Fireguy50 said:


> Oh yes, Uber will probably pull out of markets that require employment status. If this reclassification extends to too many of their profitable markets, Uber will have to redo their business model and practices.
> 
> Real background checks.
> Potential drug testing.
> ...


Jee-zuz!! All they need to do is act like a warm human being instead of a cyborg AI money-vacuuming machine!

This eludes credulity! Just a few tweaks to show good faith towards their IC partners, and educating passengers about the realities.


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## Fireguy50 (Nov 23, 2015)

circle1 said:


> Jee-zuz!! All they need to do is act like a warm human being instead of a cyborg AI money-vacuuming machine!
> 
> This eludes credulity! Just a few tweaks to show good faith towards their IC partners, and educating passengers about the realities.


I would need more to be happy.
Set my own competitive rates
Get local government approval, so PAX feel safer and cops stop harassing us.
Stop changing my income, start doing real chargeback investigations


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## 60000_TaxiFares (Dec 3, 2015)

Disgruntled said:


> You can't hurt Uber now. They've *built up $67.5 BILLION dollars* in the short time they've been in business and that was taken directly from us working for sub minimum wage. I am glad to see people here get it *but still baffled* why people here don't get it enough to stop driving for them or to try and organize and/or fight. I guess it's the same reason people slow down to look at wrecks on the other side of a divided highway.


I don't think they've "built up "* $67 billion in assets or in the bank*. I think they have about* 6 billion of cash on hand* , which nervous investors who provided it are hoping they *slow burning through it next year* after selling their China operations. For a billion dollars and a 17% stake in the biggest TNC operator in China... not a bad deal.

67 billion is a paper valuation the company is worth by Wall Street "analyst estimates". Which in many cases are worth about as much as polling numbers in the recent election.

In general the company isn't making money , even at 70 million fares/month and taking almost 50% of gross fares . I guess this works out to about $4 billion/yr in U.S. revenues and not breaking even. They hope to do this next year with the closing of China operations.

The bulk of remunerations to drivers *is being distributed very unevenly *to a small percentage *in a few of Uber's 200 U.S. markets* getting higher rates and incentives. The other 90%+ of drivers are *grinding it* to fund the business model and the bonuses directed to the *smaller number of drivers.*

Technically *drivers are funding the Uber business model far more than the investors*, but of course *hold no equity* and no possible payday if successful.

The large majority of drivers are doing this for $8.00/hr. If they use .20/mile instead of .30 as their operating costs, they think they are making $10/hr.



> I am glad to see people here get it but *still baffled* why people here don't get it enough to stop driving for them....


There you go... end the sentence there. Enough said. Great point. Made many times and not enough. Pertinent to over 90% of U.S. Drivers. One of the explanations is answered by the current Hail Mary voters made in the recent election.

Election Polls
Presidential Approval polls
Unemployment rate

All subject to skepticism. Things are miserable out there by many metrics thus the "baffling" TNC phenomenon

Stay Safe

CC


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## 60000_TaxiFares (Dec 3, 2015)

Fireguy50 said:


> Oh yes, Uber will probably pull out of markets that require employment status. If this reclassification extends to too many of their profitable markets, Uber will have to redo their business model and practices.
> 
> Real background checks.
> Potential drug testing.
> ...


Many of you have the option to drive a van service such as Meda-Care. They have Medicare contracts to transport the elderly to appointments and such. Lotsa small and medium sized operations in cities like this across the nation. Millions of small and medium sized businesses to work for.

$9.00/hr and after a year or so, perhaps group rates on the health plan. 40hr work week.

Just like any employee from Wal-mart to bank tellers if things don't work out you will be terminated as happens millions of times a year.

Great , turn Uber into a Meda-Care, or transport company (if you really must drive for money) or get a regular W-2 job. So what? Maybe put Uber/Lyft, etc out of business. A million other places to work. You can make $11.00/hr after a year or so at Wal-Mart.

But "*be your own boss*" , "*work on your schedule*" , on a *W-2*? Some entity paying you a wage, workers comp, unemployment insurance , social security taxes , overtime etc etc...?

Such opportunities are few and far between . Barmaid, barkeep , server, all above the table with a great relationship with the proprietors (preferably their daughter) is the closest I can come up with at the moment. $2.10/hr W-2 wage plus tips.

I *haven't seen anything major in many years challenging* the *independent contractor status* of owner operator truckers or taxis. Or many barbers or beauticians and strippers and...

Strippers... if anyone needs workers comp.... 5"heels, 4" plexiglass soles and upside down spinning on a brass pole. Oh boy, and in many places talk about _*cheap asses.... *_Should replace synchronized swimming in the Olympics...

Stay Safe

CC


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## Dammit Mazzacane (Dec 31, 2015)

Is there any state in the U.S. that considers TNC drivers as employees ?


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## Dammit Mazzacane (Dec 31, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> I owned and operated a small 7 car taxi company for 15 years. I had 8 drivers challenge their independent contractor status over those years. About 1 every two years average. I wasn't sued in court but challenged over tax , workers comp and unemployment issues.


I'm curious about your personal experience: Did owning a small taxi co. generally make decent money for you, and did you drive as part of the company? Why did you exit (or did you sell to another owner?)


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Dammit Mazzacane said:


> Is there any state in the U.S. that considers TNC drivers as employees ?


Every state has their own "tests" to determine whether one is an independent contractor or employee. I don't believe there is any one state that classifies all TNC independent contractors as employees automatically. Not yet anyway. I do know that it is possible to be classified one way by a state, for example an employee for workers comp and still be classified as an independent contractor for federal IRS purposes.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Dammit Mazzacane said:


> I'm curious about your personal experience: Did owning a small taxi co. generally make decent money for you, and did you drive as part of the company? Why did you exit (or did you sell to another owner?)


Like any small business it was difficult in the early years. The first hurdle was getting authorization from the state to operate. I was opposed at the hearings (hearings were like mock court trials with the judges being attorneys working for the state) by two taxi companies already in operation. That took two years mostly due to legal delay tactics by attorneys for the other two taxi companies. The first 5 years I drove a lot. After that I concentrated on getting worker comp business from insurance companies and medicaid trips from the state. The best years were when Obama first came into office and medicaid enrollment skyrocketed. I was able to pay myself a decent salary without driving much after 7 years or so but if it wasn't for my wife holding down a regular job with health insurance etc... it might not have been possible. I sold it to a couple of brothers that were independent contractors with me for 6 years. They had been asking me about buying it for a few years before the sale. When I started reading about Uber starting up in different areas of the country I thought the time just might be right and made a deal. They're still operating today 4 years after the sale. I like my new tax business much better. I get to work with all different types of businesses and have more upside on the income potential. I also don't have people calling me and demanding $10,000 because their head hit the roof of the car when the driver went over a speed bump or having the police impound my car for a week because it was used as an escape vehicle for a robbery! (both true stories). The interesting thing to me looking back is that the best times for the cab company were when unemployment was high because it was easier to recruit drivers. When times are good no one wants to drive a cab!


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> So if we were employees and we drove an average of 20 miles in any given hour, we would need to be paid...
> $18.05 per hour for Uber to no be in violation of Federal Minimum wage laws.


Not entirely accurate. Uber would always pay minimum wage and then pay employee reimbursement for the use of your vehicle. The more wages that are paid to the employee then the more taxes and insurances are paid by the employer.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Not entirely accurate. Uber would always pay minimum wage and then pay employee reimbursement for the use of your vehicle. The more wages that are paid to the employee then the more taxes and insurances are paid by the employer.


They'd probably pay minimum wage and .10 mile!


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Not entirely accurate. Uber would always pay minimum wage and then pay employee reimbursement for the use of your vehicle. The more wages that are paid to the employee then the more taxes and insurances are paid by the employer.


Well... Technically, according to the "free and clear" rule... that's exactly what Uber WOULD have to pay, a minimum of minimum wage with zero deductions/out of pocket expenses. It's called the FLSA kickback rule.

*If an employee is required to return some portion of wages-whether directly or indirectly-and that "kickback" puts the employee's hourly rate below the minimum wage, then the employer has violated the FLSA's minimum wage requirement.*

It's a clause in minimum wage law requiring that AFTER paying out of pocket for business expenses that we have to make minimum wage. If it's deductible than uber has to comp us for it, or else it comes out of our minimum wage. If you are a tipped employee... than uber can deduct $0-$3 depending on what state you reside in.

http://www.wagehourinsights.com/201...penses-the-flsa-kickback-rule-wage-hour-faqs/

*A kickback is triggered in one of two ways:*

*through deductions from the employee's wages to pay for an expense that was for the benefit of the employer;*
*by failing to reimburse an employee for those expenses.*

Sooo....

If your an employee that is driving on the job, you are legally entitled to...

$8.05 an hour (or higher depending on the state) minus (-$3 the tip credt in some states)
.54c per EVERY mile driven.
+ tolls

The LAW requires that the employee have no work related deductions bringing their income under minimum wage, for the purposes of driving a vehicle it is the standard IRS rate, because that is what is deductible.

However.. Uber the company, could deduct ALL miles driven by all employee drivers.

This is the PRIME thing that Uber is trying to avoid and this is the bomb that they wil fight until the end. Uber will collaspe from the price cut in a large number of markets if we are declared employees.


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

So if you drive 20 miles on the job, you are legally entitled to $18.85 in the state of Florida to make... and it is exactly minimum wage on your taxes.


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## Grahamcracker (Nov 2, 2016)

Cdaley said:


> If we are labeled as employees half of us would not do it or would not be hired ! One of the best things about uber on top of the great pay for low hours is the ability to do it when you want ! If we get labeled as an employee you would have schedule and it may. It be the one that works for you! So just as uber does. It want us labeled as an employee neither should we ! Why would I want to go from $30 a hour to $10 a hour anyway that's just does not make any sense!!


Where do you drive that makes $30 an hour? I swear here in Honolulu, HI it's much less than that. We are a small island and flooded with Uber/Lyft drivers. No way it's possible to make $30 an hour here unless it was some anomaly. So much waiting time and short short drives. It's definitely not possible here on a normal day.


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