# Does anyone figure out hourly wage?



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

Who actually bothers to figure out their hourly rate? I do, and it speaks volumes. The knowledge that came from calculating my hourly rate has caused me to drive significantly less which has resulted in more profit and less wasted time. Profit does not equal money. Initially, figuring out my hourly rate opened my eyes to quit driving all together. I started driving again, but I only drive with a very calculated game plan in mind. I only drive a few hours per week in a very limited area. I have come to understand, that the more you drive, the less profit you actually see.

Uber preys on drivers greed in the exact same way a slot machine entices its' victims in a casino. Uber has a button allowing you to see your earnings. You can see daily, weekly and yearly earnings. These notices are just like a slot machine which has your cash staring you in the face, encouraging you to play again for the big payoff which seldom comes. Simple greed causes many drivers to play again and again. Uber is relentless with their endless text messages and e-mails trying to get you back to the game. Hot spots, local events, surge pricing, guarantees. They do this only for their benefit. It's the flashing lights and the lure of big money in the Uber casino. The reality is, you'll get stuck in traffic, trying to find the big payoff while your hourly wage erodes to nothing. All the other greedy drivers flooding the area only serves to compound the problem.

Over time, the slot machine slowly takes your money in the same way that Uber steals your profits with long drives to pick up passengers that turn into minimum rides. The result is 40 minutes of work for two dollars and some change, BEFORE EXPENSES. Factor in the wasted time as you wait for the Uber slot machine to let you play again, and it becomes even worse. If you are lucky enough to hit back to back pings, you may actually be able to yield a bit more than minimum wage, but how many rides can you actually do in an hour? Keep playing, because you didn't make enough, and it eventually gets even worse. Every once in a while, the Uber slot machine will payoff with an airport ride or some other worthwhile payoff. Drivers remember these, while they forget the losses which causes them to keep playing the rigged game. The drivers chase the dream like a drug addict chases the feeling they got from their first hit, or the gambling addict who chases the feeling they remember from the mini-jackpot they hit yesterday

One simple fact has become clear to me, additional time you invest driving for Uber, will result in less profit per hour, over an extended period of time. As I read thread after thread from drivers talking about how much money they are or are not making, it would be far more interesting to discuss how much money we are making per hour.

How many times have you heard someone say that they won $500.00 in Vegas? They love to talk about their big win. In reality, they hit a mini jackpot on a slot machine but ended up spending $700.00 for the $500.00 win. Factor in food, travel costs etc. and the losses are far greater. People hate to admit that they lost. That's why you read post after post from some drivers who talk about the big payday they had last week. For the next three weeks, they chase the dream hoping to see similar paydays. Figure out your hourly rate for a month, and then you'll get a good idea of what you are really making.
Drive the same way and figure it out for two months. If it's getting worse, you are getting scammed.

I'm not saying you can't make money playing the Uber ********* slot machine. But to really figure out how much you are making, figure out your hourly take home pay. Figure out one week, then two weeks and then a month. You'll see the pattern and have a much better understanding of how you are investing your time.

For me, my time is worth much more than minimum wage. All of us are different. I believe that everyone owes it to themselves to take the time to calculate what Uber thinks you are really worth, and then ask yourself if you agree.


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## renbutler (Jul 25, 2015)

Except for weighted words like "preys," "scammed," and "steals," I agree with all of this. 

Bottom line, you have to be smart to make money. Uber doesn't prevent anybody from doing the math. They don't (normally) take anything that you didn't agree to. They do make it pretty difficult to turn a hefty profit, but they obviously aren't having any trouble getting people to sign on anyway. That's our problem, not theirs.


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

For someone who trashes my posts on a regular basis, it's creepy that you reply everytime I put something up. Considering that you admitted in one of your posts that you drive for Uber to check out "the hot soccer moms" only serves to reinforce your true colors. Go back to creeping on the hot soccer moms and kindly hit ignore next to my name.


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## renbutler (Jul 25, 2015)

Good God, man, I was agreeing with you.

Deal with it and move on. And maybe take your owned damn advice for once.


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## Hondaguy7643 (Apr 18, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> One simple fact has become clear to me, additional time you invest driving for Uber, will result in less profit per hour, over an extended period of time. As I read thread after thread from drivers talking about how much money they are or are not making, it would be far more interesting to discuss how much money we are making per hour.


Excellent post. From the very first day I drove, to present, I have had a spreadsheet to keep track of all factors involved including hourly wage. It tracks hourly wage based off of what Uber pays out AND then after expenses (gas, maintenance, depreciation) are taken out. I have the "net pay after expenses" column highlighted in light green to direct my eyes to what I'm actually making. The spreadsheet is constantly "under construction" as I keep finding things to add, subtract, or re-work.

I've noticed in recent months that my average hourly wage is falling, and getting harder to bring back up. I partially blame it on the fact that surge in Houston has diminished greatly, and it's harder to make guarantee's with an over saturation of drivers out there. Not to mention the ridiculous minimum requirements that Uber keeps changing.

The top of my spreadsheet even has a section that averages out the hourly wage over all months driven. Right now it's about $11.77 an hour. That's after all expenses, including tax. For me, that's OK because I have a full time job so that wage is purely extra income for me and it's come in handy from paying for my Florida vacation this past May to a new mattress this month.

I've seen some threads stating that it's important to look at your profit per mile, but for me it's always been about the hourly wage.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Great post!

Most new Uber drivers don't do the math before they start driving. After doing it, they start realizing the costs, and when the costs don't justify the revenue, they quit. This is why Uber has such a high turnover rate. 

I do the math down to the penny. I've learned in my market conditions and with my setup as an UberSelect car that is required to also be sent UberX requests, there are times I can make over $15 per hour and times where I can make less than $5 an hour. I've also learned to use the buffer Uber gives us in our acceptance rates/cancelation rates to avoid unprofitable requests sent to me. People can call this "cherry picking" all they want, but I see the problem as Uber's system needs to be fixed so it stops throwing rotten lemons at drivers. Until it's fixed, I'm not accepting rotten lemon requests. 

For those that haven't done the math and learned good strategy, it's just a matter of time before they quit, because doing it the way Uber wants drivers to do it isn't justified by the compensation. You've got to do the math, learn the market, and strategize to make it work.

That is why I can still continue to drive despite how much I hate Uber. I hate Uber because you shouldn't have to be an engineer like me to make it work.


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

Hondaguy7643 said:


> Excellent post. From the very first day I drove, to present, I have had a spreadsheet to keep track of all factors involved including hourly wage. It tracks hourly wage based off of what Uber pays out AND then after expenses (gas, maintenance, depreciation) are taken out. I have the "net pay after expenses" column highlighted in light green to direct my eyes to what I'm actually making. The spreadsheet is constantly "under construction" as I keep finding things to add, subtract, or re-work.
> 
> I've noticed in recent months that my average hourly wage is falling, and getting harder to bring back up. I partially blame it on the fact that surge in Houston has diminished greatly, and it's harder to make guarantee's with an over saturation of drivers out there. Not to mention the ridiculous minimum requirements that Uber keeps changing.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your well thought out, intelligent reply. It's easy to make believe that you have a grip on the finances of driving for Uber, it's quite a different thing to actually crunch all the numbers, which allow you to make strategic decisions to maximize profits. I use excel spreadsheets the same way you referenced. I can't imagine playing this game without a clear understanding of what you are really making. I totally agree with your observation regarding profit per mile VS profit per hour. Profit per hour gives you a variable you can control. Profit per mile doesn't make any sense to me, unless you are trying to rationalize depreciation. I suppose you can control the miles, but that's really the same thing as controlling time which is actually easier to do.


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> I've also learned to use the buffer Uber gives us in our acceptance rates/cancelation rates to avoid unprofitable requests sent to me. People can call this "cherry picking" all they want


I've been fine tuning my "cherry picking" technique as well. Frankly I'm still waiting for Uber to stick me on their 72 hour probation bullshit....like I care. I've got a running list of people who use Uber for minimum rides during my work times. I can't afford to eat bullshit rides for Uber and I'll do everything I can to avoid them. I've successfully "trained" a couple riders who will cancel me when I accept their trip. After having me cancel on them after five minutes, they have figured out that I have no interest in driving them a couple miles down the road. These people use Uber to get a ride to work in the mornings. They only work a few miles away from where they live. I'll let some new driver waste their time and money.

Invariably, I'll get hit with a few minimum fare rides from time to time. Whenever this happens, I let them know how little I make on these types of rides. I engage them in conversation to learn how, when and why they use Uber. If they are too cheap to tip on minimum rides, I'll never take them again. On my list they go. Rate me poorly. I could care less.

Any insights you care to share to identify minimum fare rides, before they happen, would be greatly appreciated. They are the kiss of death and Uber does everything to try to get you to pick them up.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> Any insights you care to share to identify minimum fare rides, before they happen, would be greatly appreciated. They are the kiss of death and Uber does everything to try to get you to pick them up.


Learn to identify grocery store locations when you see them come up. Walmart and target locations are the same. People do NOT go across town to go to these stores. They are almost always a minimum fare, and when they are not, it's no more than a buck or two more.

That said I will accept these trips when I'm a minute or so away from them. Simple math can show why that is profitable.

When I'm four to five miles away from that grocery store or Walmart, I have to spend say $1.50 in deadhead miles getting to them, and then spend another $0.60 in billables miles to provide them the service. That means t I net only $0.30 in profit ($2.40 minus $2.10 in car costs equals $0.30) for the 10 minutes I spent doing the job. That's $1.80 per hour.

However, if I'm just a mile away, I only spend $0.30 in deadhead miles getting to them, then I net $1.50 for the 6 minutes I spent doing the work ($2.40 minus $0.90 in car costs equals $1.50). That's $15.00 per hour.

However, even with it being $15 per hour if the request is just a mile away, there's other reasons to ignore them. These types of pax can be high maintenance... filling up the trunk with 20 bags of groceries, asking you to take them through fast food drive through before taking them home, etc, etc.... so I can understand why a driver would decide to never pickup grocery store/Walmart pax. But like I said, I only do it when I'm right near the request... which is rare.


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## R_Mills (Aug 6, 2015)

I have freelance work on the side. Plus a full time job. Started driving Uber when my side work gets slow. I only look at hourly rate. Waiting for rides while logged into the app and in my car starts the clock for me.

I will not pick up anyone from a strip mall or grocery store, they are always minimum fares. 

I will also not pick anyone up from a residential neighborhood near a downtown area between 7:30am - 9:30am they are always minimum rides to work. People are not trying to get to the airport during rush hour.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> Who actually bothers to figure out their hourly rate? I do, and it speaks volumes. The knowledge that came from calculating my hourly rate has caused me to drive significantly less which has resulted in more profit and less wasted time. Profit does not equal money. Initially, figuring out my hourly rate opened my eyes to quit driving all together. I started driving again, but I only drive with a very calculated game plan in mind. I only drive a few hours per week in a very limited area. I have come to understand, that the more you drive, the less profit you actually see.
> 
> Uber preys on drivers greed in the exact same way a slot machine entices its' victims in a casino. Uber has a button allowing you to see your earnings. You can see daily, weekly and yearly earnings. These notices are just like a slot machine which has your cash staring you in the face, encouraging you to play again for the big payoff which seldom comes. Simple greed causes many drivers to play again and again. Uber is relentless with their endless text messages and e-mails trying to get you back to the game. Hot spots, local events, surge pricing, guarantees. They do this only for their benefit. It's the flashing lights and the lure of big money in the Uber casino. The reality is, you'll get stuck in traffic, trying to find the big payoff while your hourly wage erodes to nothing. All the other greedy drivers flooding the area only serves to compound the problem.
> 
> ...


keep track of all your expenses and then come and bring this to a good accountant, have him or her produce a profit loss statement and there you'll be shocked to find out you are working for less than minimum wage if you are working for uberx, I work for Uber black and SUV and I'm only making between 12 dollars per hour on a bad day and $15 per hour on a good day after gas and lease.


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

Oscar Levant said:


> keep track of all your expenses and then come and bring this to a good accountant,


I always use an accountant. For me, simply deducting miles is the suggested way to go. The tough part is not showing too much of a loss, which says a lot about how stupid it is to drive for Uber.


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## Jimmy D (Jul 4, 2015)

I work from 8pm to 5am. The airport runs happen Sat & Sun starting at 3:30am (last night).

I pick up the "over the limit" people from 10 pm to 1am.

I pick up the bar workers from 2am to 3am when they get off work.

The new car service garages open at 8am. The garage takes the people on short trips and I get them on long trips. There is usually a surge between 8am and 9am, when it opens and they find out how long it will take to fix the car.

I may start taking a break between 2am and 4am so I can work an extra 2 hours in the morning.

I love my PAX people and I tell them that my favorite people are "over the limit" people because they may have fancy cars, but they ride with me because they do not want to kill people while over the limit. . . and I really mean it.

I really love Uber and thank them for giving me a chance to have some fun.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> I always use an accountant. For me, simply deducting miles is the suggested way to go. The tough part is not showing too much of a loss, which says a lot about how stupid it is to drive for Uber.


my view is to simply go by the government's rules to figure out what you really are earning, for example, the 56 cents per mile deduction is based on an average cost though yours may vary somewhat, but if your actual vehicle cost are more than this go with the itemized deductions, of course. and if you show a break even or near it or even a loss it might not be good for your credit rating but at least you won't have to pay any taxes


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

OPPORTUNITY COST

per hour is irrelevant unless you compare your time to anything else that might make money with that time.

Your time has NO value unless you can use it to make money elsewhere.

If I would spend that time having a latte at Starbucks or Peet's - or sitting at home, it had NO economic value.


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## uberparadise (Aug 2, 2015)

One week I am happy and hopeful. The next I am sad and hopeless. Uber likes showing u who is boss. Riders are always happy and thrilled with the fast service and cheap fares. However, surge is the one thing riders and the outside non ride share world get upset about. Surge up to 2x 3x 4x maybe even 5x is within reason. Just cap it. That's a nice compromise and could be handled psychologically by the public. The 300 400. 500 dollar rides are very rare, but have a lasting sting and are what gives Uber a black eye. But no surge would create no cars at important times. Capitalism works well, unless it becomes outrageous and takes advantage of people. Travis please think long and hard. Just compromise, respect your drivers, employees, and the riders equally.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Hondaguy7643 said:


> Excellent post. From the very first day I drove, to present, I have had a spreadsheet to keep track of all factors involved including hourly wage. It tracks hourly wage based off of what Uber pays out AND then after expenses (gas, maintenance, depreciation) are taken out. I have the "net pay after expenses" column highlighted in light green to direct my eyes to what I'm actually making. The spreadsheet is constantly "under construction" as I keep finding things to add, subtract, or re-work.
> 
> I've noticed in recent months that my average hourly wage is falling, and getting harder to bring back up. I partially blame it on the fact that surge in Houston has diminished greatly, and it's harder to make guarantee's with an over saturation of drivers out there. Not to mention the ridiculous minimum requirements that Uber keeps changing.
> 
> ...


If your profit per mile is too low the hourly wage will be anyway. That's why driving at 75 cents/mile is not worth it. Even if you use costs of 30 cents/mile (small and fuel efficient car), not the IRS 57.5, you'd have to drive 30 miles each hour to make $9 per hour before taxes.

$0.75×0.8=$0.60
$0.60-$0.30=$0.30

$0.30×30 miles =$9.00

If you go by the IRS deduction you're only making 2.5 cents per mile. But you won't have as much to pay in taxes!

The two are obviously linked. But I have a similar spreadsheet and have always used it to keep track of my pizza delivery miles and tips so as to see what days and times of year are best. I also used it to compare working in different locations and dominos vs pizza Hut.

Sidenote: I love Excel!


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> OPPORTUNITY COST
> 
> per hour is irrelevant unless you compare your time to anything else that might make money with that time.
> 
> ...


I would say that leisure time is worth something. Maybe not as much per hour as you make at your "real" job but it's important to recognize it's not worthless which is what I get from your "NO economic value".

It's important IMHO to have time off for your body and mind. Working 100 hours per week is not healthy.

I think we all have to somehow put an economic value on our time so as to not fall into the trap of working way beyond what is good for us for an economic benefit that is outweighed by the toll on our mind and body.

This may vary by circumstances. If I am broke and can't make my car payment I may well be willing to work for minimum wage for a short time to avoid repossession even doing something that I don't like because the benefit (keeping my car) is worth it to me.

But if my regular job pays well and I'm not in dire straits then working for minimum wage just for "extra" money probably won't be. The payoff just isn't enough.

Everything is a cost/benefit analysis and it varies by individual. Uber is managing to keep some drivers because:
1. Many don't do the math. They are willing to work for let's say $15 per hour and THINK they are doing that but in fact it's far less. They will keep going until reality sets in.
2. They are desperate due to the economy and other factors and although they would not normally work for what they're making they feel that at this point they have no choice. These people will quit or cut back if their situation improves.

But to get back to my point: You have to put a number on what you're willing to work for and why. Otherwise, using your premise, working for 50 cents per hour makes sense as your time would otherwise have "no economic value". I think you would agree that it has VALUE. The problem is the only way to quantify that when it comes to working or not working is by pay per hour.


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## YouWishYouKnewMe (May 26, 2015)

I have made as little as 4$ an hour a few weeks in a row


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> Great post!
> 
> For those that haven't done the math and learned good strategy, it's just a matter of time before they quit, because doing it the way Uber wants drivers to do it isn't justified by the compensation. You've got to do the math, learn the market, and strategize to make it work.
> 
> That is why I can still continue to drive despite how much I hate Uber. I hate Uber because you shouldn't have to be an engineer like me to make it work.


I would also argue that there are markets where all the strategizing in the world simply can't make it work anymore. I think we have to be careful not to give the impression that if you can't make it work for you it's a case of not being smart enough. I see a lot of this attitude from some posters and often they are not even in the same area as the person they are telling to "work smarter".


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## XUberMike (Aug 2, 2015)

I guess if you really want to see "Hot Soccer Moms" it might be wise to go to the pitch. Don't be looking at PAX as hot anything, kinda stalkerish.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Sacto Burbs said:


> OPPORTUNITY COST
> per hour is irrelevant unless you compare your time to anything else that might make money with that time.
> Your time has NO value unless you can use it to make money elsewhere.
> If I would spend that time having a latte at Starbucks or Peet's - or sitting at home, it had NO economic value.


I wasn't going to comment on the thread because I agree with everything the OP said -
EXCEPT the premise. ... but you've nailed it and I want to expand on what you've said.

Independent business people are not non-exempt employees who earn an hourly wage and overtime.

As drivers, we invest our time and other expenses to earn a profit.
Wages are not profits.
You don't take your hourly wage to the bank each week, you take you net pay...
and as independent drivers, we take our profit to the bank.

While you can do the math of figuring out your hourly wage, it will drive you nuts and in the end it's meaningless because
YOU are only one who can determine if the profit you made (or loss you incurred) was worth the time and expense to you.

That's why I think the 'hourly wage' is a useless tool in evaluating your Uber business.
Far more appropriate is UberHammer's method of dissecting and accounting for your actual expenses, available tax breaks and net profit.

Again - nothing against the original post here...
I just look at it a bit differently.


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## UberRidiculous (May 19, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I wasn't going to comment on the thread because I agree with everything the OP said -
> EXCEPT the premise. ... but you've nailed it and I want to expand on what you've said.
> 
> Independent business people are not non-exempt employees who earn an hourly wage and overtime.
> ...


I disagree. Only because MOST people use their hourly value to measure against their self-employed value. In a perfect world where everyone has enough financial assets to not have to worry about (paying rent) income or wages, then you would be making a fair assessment. But I think most drivers are weighing Uber against other wage paying scenarios.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> I would also argue that there are markets where all the strategizing in the world simply can't make it work anymore. I think we have to be careful not to give the impression that if you can't make it work for you it's a case of not being smart enough. I see a lot of this attitude from some posters and often they are not even in the same area as the person they are telling to "work smarter".


This is VERY TRUE. In my market rate are $1.10 per mile, and I also get sent UberSelect request, which because they are twice as much for the passenger fare wise, they are three times as profitable for me given my costs for doing an UberSelect trip do NOT increase over an UberX trip. So the entire increase in rate for me is all pure profit. Because of this I wish I could do UberSelect only, but the Uber city manager here doesn't allow it.

If I was in a market where rates were $0.78 per mile like Atlanta, and my car did NOT qualify for some UberSelect fares, the only strategy to make some decent income in such a situation is to hope for surge fares.


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## William1964 (Jul 28, 2015)

I am at $18.53 per hour based on two week income and 102 hours. 
The average day is finding a ride out and hoping someone takes me back home. 
Sometimes I've just a few block from my home and I get pinged.
I've got plenty of dead miles, but I am actively looking for the next ride.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

William1964 said:


> I am at $18.53 per hour based on two week income and 102 hours.
> The average day is finding a ride out and hoping someone takes me back home.
> Sometimes I've just a few block from my home and I get pinged.
> I've got plenty of dead miles, but I am actively looking for the next ride.


$18.53 per hr what? Gross? Net after uber take? Net after gas? Net after all expenses (and figured how)?


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## Jason2k15 (Jul 31, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> Who actually bothers to figure out their hourly rate? I do, and it speaks volumes. The knowledge that came from calculating my hourly rate has caused me to drive significantly less which has resulted in more profit and less wasted time. Profit does not equal money. Initially, figuring out my hourly rate opened my eyes to quit driving all together. I started driving again, but I only drive with a very calculated game plan in mind. I only drive a few hours per week in a very limited area. I have come to understand, that the more you drive, the less profit you actually see.
> 
> Uber preys on drivers greed in the exact same way a slot machine entices its' victims in a casino. Uber has a button allowing you to see your earnings. You can see daily, weekly and yearly earnings. These notices are just like a slot machine which has your cash staring you in the face, encouraging you to play again for the big payoff which seldom comes. Simple greed causes many drivers to play again and again. Uber is relentless with their endless text messages and e-mails trying to get you back to the game. Hot spots, local events, surge pricing, guarantees. They do this only for their benefit. It's the flashing lights and the lure of big money in the Uber casino. The reality is, you'll get stuck in traffic, trying to find the big payoff while your hourly wage erodes to nothing. All the other greedy drivers flooding the area only serves to compound the problem.
> 
> ...


While hourly rate lets you figure out if you are spending your time wisely or not, the end game or object of the game is profit after expenses. That lets you know whether the "business" is worth it or not. So I think both numbers are important.


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## William1964 (Jul 28, 2015)

Yep!

Dude, really?

What is your point? I'm happy. That's what counts.

Let me put it like this. It was all paid for and my total profit for 2 weeks is $949.72.
How can I prove this? I paid all my bills and the amount I paid the credit cars was more than I spent over the past 2 weeks.

You are dealing with an idiot, sorry you needed translation.

So, I had to reserve Vegas. 2 free nights at the Mirage thanks to mlife. Had to pay for the 3rd one.
Rental car. Flight. Food. Total for all and it's paid for: $354.79. I did ask to upgrade to a suite.

Will be requesting an early ride on 11/10...Tipping is required!

If someone would like me, just one more time, I would have a signature as a reminder...


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

William1964 said:


> Yep!
> 
> Dude, really?
> 
> ...


Are you responding to me? If so I'm confused. If it doesn't matter where that number came from then why post it at all?


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

Interesting, thought provoking points of view... Thanks for all the posts.


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## Micmac (Jul 31, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> Who actually bothers to figure out their hourly rate? I do, and it speaks volumes. The knowledge that came from calculating my hourly rate has caused me to drive significantly less which has resulted in more profit and less wasted time. Profit does not equal money. Initially, figuring out my hourly rate opened my eyes to quit driving all together. I started driving again, but I only drive with a very calculated game plan in mind. I only drive a few hours per week in a very limited area. I have come to understand, that the more you drive, the less profit you actually see.
> 
> Uber preys on drivers greed in the exact same way a slot machine entices its' victims in a casino. Uber has a button allowing you to see your earnings. You can see daily, weekly and yearly earnings. These notices are just like a slot machine which has your cash staring you in the face, encouraging you to play again for the big payoff which seldom comes. Simple greed causes many drivers to play again and again. Uber is relentless with their endless text messages and e-mails trying to get you back to the game. Hot spots, local events, surge pricing, guarantees. They do this only for their benefit. It's the flashing lights and the lure of big money in the Uber casino. The reality is, you'll get stuck in traffic, trying to find the big payoff while your hourly wage erodes to nothing. All the other greedy drivers flooding the area only serves to compound the problem.
> 
> ...


Easy ! You work 20 hours you make $100 _$30 gas =$70 divided by 20 . You make $3.5 an hour .


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Micmac said:


> Easy ! You work 20 hours you make $100 _$30 gas =$70 divided by 20 . You make $3.5 an hour .


Somebody else wanna take this? I really hope he's being facetious. Although he did say $3.50 an hour so maybe not.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberRidiculous said:


> I disagree. Only because MOST people use their hourly value to measure against their self-employed value. In a perfect world where everyone has enough financial assets to not have to worry about (paying rent) income or wages, then you would be making a fair assessment. But I think most drivers are weighing Uber against other wage paying scenarios.


Which is fine if you're working to figure out your 'value'.
Unfortunately, your self-valuation means nothing to anyone but you.
Your value as a worker is determined by the people who pay you.
When you work for yourself (are self employed), then you get to determine the value of your work, and charge accordingly
(and starve or thrive depending on how others value your work)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Micmac said:


> Easy ! You work 20 hours you make $100 _$30 gas =$70 divided by 20 . You make $3.5 an hour .


Allow me to try - with the short version:
Hey, Mimac -
Did someone give you that car without charge? (capital investment)
Who's is and will be paying for tires/brakes/oil-changes/repairs/maintenance? (operating expenses)
When that car is worn out and worth next to nothing, who is going to pay for your next car? (depreciation expense)
Are you renting a phone from Uber - or are you paying more for service to run the Uber app?(equipment/service expenses)

I'm afraid in your $100/20 hours scenario, the driver is without charge earning more like $1.75/hr.​
That about cover the basics?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberRidiculous said:


> I think most drivers are weighing Uber against other wage paying scenarios.


What makes you think that most drivers (or at least a significant number)
aren't weighing the Uber 'entrepreneurial opportunity' against other such opportunities?

I know for me, it was not (and never will be) a choice between driving Uber and, say, fast food work.


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## Micmac (Jul 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Allow me to try - with the short version:
> Hey, Mimac -
> Did someone give you that car without charge? (capital investment)
> Who's is and will be paying for tires/brakes/oil-changes/repairs/maintenance? (operating expenses)
> ...


Hi mike you are right I did not include all you what mention I m with you $1.75 an hour. Bottomline i m looking to get out this sh*t don't have options now.


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## UberRidiculous (May 19, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Which is fine if you're working to figure out your 'value'.
> Unfortunately, your self-valuation means nothing to anyone but you.
> Your value as a worker is determined by the people who pay you.
> When you work for yourself (are self employed), then you get to determine the value of your work, and charge accordingly
> (and starve or thrive depending on how others value your work)


Your value is determined by what you are willing to accept AND what others are willing to pay you. Unless you are in a financial position where you can live without having to earn money, those 2 are dependent on one another. It doesn't matter if you are an IC, business owner or employee, if you work to pay your rent, theses things are important.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> What makes you think that most drivers (or at least a significant number)
> aren't weighing the Uber 'entrepreneurial opportunity' against other such opportunities?
> 
> I know for me, it was not (and never will be) a choice between driving Uber and, say, fast food work.


Which tells me you are in a financial position where money isn't an issue. There's a large percentage of citizens living paycheck to paycheck in the USA. These people need to weigh the value of their time and the potential of their real world opportunities accordingly.


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## William1964 (Jul 28, 2015)

Yes I was posting to you Someone asked if anyone has figured out hourly income. 
As for posting the number. I have. There it is.
Yes. I pay interest. It's also included in the payments I made today.
It's called a loan for a reason. And I need gas.

I'm having a hard time estimating the wear and tear on my tires, so, since they came standard with the vehicle, lets let the depreciation cover that until I actually make a new tires purchase. 
I might even be able to prove enough work use to deduct 80-90 percent of the payments I make this year.

If you have the driving record, insurance and car to work this, it can be a quick boost of money after dipping fries or making pizzas, doing dishes.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberRidiculous said:


> Which tells me you are in a financial position where money isn't an issue.


When you start qualifying definitions by conditions 
then you are defining things subjectively rather than objectively. 
That's fine - 
as long as you understand and acknowledge the difference.


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## UberRidiculous (May 19, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> When you start qualifying definitions by conditions
> then you are defining things subjectively rather than objectively.
> That's fine -
> as long as you understand and acknowledge the difference.


I have more street knowledge than book knowledge. Fancy way of saying call it whatever you want but it is, what it is.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberRidiculous said:


> I have more street knowledge than book knowledge. Fancy way of saying call it whatever you want but it is, what it is.


Understood... but '_calling it what it is'_ is a simple way of saying 'it's what I feel it is to me'.

Let me attempt a 'practical example' of what I mean by
_"You don't take your hourly wage to the bank - you take your paycheck to the bank"_...

One worker has a job where they work from 8AM to 6PM, Monday-Friday
and it's a fairly non-stress job - great employer - not a lot of 'hassle'.
*She is paid $650/wk.*
That's $13/hr for *50 hours*
(leaving overtime out of it for our purpose here)

Another worker has a job where they work from 7:30AM to 6:30PM Monday through Friday
and it's a hectic job with some aggravating duty changes on short notice - a hassle at times.
*He is paid $650/wk.*
That's $11.82/hr for *55 hours*

Both have very similar job descriptions and responsibilities.
Their hourly wage rates are different -
but they deposit the same amount each week.

Which one has a higher 'value'?
Is their value different in the marketplace?

[In many situations, if not most...]
It is the JOB that has a market value - not the person doing the job.
Someone with a PhD in economics flipping burgers at McDonald's has the same 'value' (to the employer) as an 18 year-old high school student.
And *THAT is the reality of driving Uber*


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## UberRidiculous (May 19, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Understood... but '_calling it what it is'_ is a simple way of saying 'it's what I feel it is to me'.


Nooooo, I was born in the dark but it wasn't yesterday. Nice try tho.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

UberRidiculous said:


> Nooooo, I was born in the dark but it wasn't yesterday. Nice try tho.


see my edit to the post above...


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## docswife (Feb 24, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> This is VERY TRUE. In my market rate are $1.10 per mile, and I also get sent UberSelect request, which because they are twice as much for the passenger fare wise, they are three times as profitable for me given my costs for doing an UberSelect trip do NOT increase over an UberX trip. So the entire increase in rate for me is all pure profit. Because of this I wish I could do UberSelect only, but the Uber city manager here doesn't allow it.
> 
> If I was in a market where rates were $0.78 per mile like Atlanta, and my car did NOT qualify for some UberSelect fares, the only strategy to make some decent income in such a situation is to hope for surge fares.


Do you really get THAT many select requests to make you want to do select only??


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Micmac said:


> Hi mike you are right I did not include all you what mention I m with you $1.75 an hour. Bottomline i m looking to get out this sh*t don't have options now.


That's about the most honest answer I've seen here for a while.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

docswife said:


> Do you really get THAT many select requests to make you want to do select only??


Absolutely!!!

I have no argument that I make more per hour accepting both, but I would go online far more often if I didn't to have accept UberX pings too. I work from home, and my job is easy enough that I can do it from a Chromebook. Which means with the unlimited bandwidth I get on my cell phone I can do my job from the driver's seat in my car without any loss in quality. Most days my real job is slow enough where I'd be willing to add some UberSELECT pings to my workload, but it's NOT worth it to me get UberX pings while I'm working my real job given how often UberX pings come in. So I'm only online around 10 to 12 hours a week because of the stupid UberX requirement. If I could only get UberSELECT pings I'd go online 40 to 50 hours a week. I'd make less per Uber hour, but MORE PER WEEK! This is a concept the Uber manager of Columbus does NOT understand. He is pigeon holed in his vision that drivers have NOTHING more to do than driver for Uber, so they should be setup to get the maximum amount of requests per hour. He wants quantity over quality because after all I'm just a driver in his eyes. I want quality over quantity because my real job is not worth interrupting for a $2.40 Walmart pickup. So both myself and Uber lose because he can't comprehend that.


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## docswife (Feb 24, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> Absolutely!!!
> 
> I have no argument that I make more per hour accepting both, but I would go online far more often if I didn't to have accept UberX pings too. I work from home, and my job is easy enough that I can do it from a Chromebook. Which means with the unlimited bandwidth I get on my cell phone I can do my job from the driver's seat in my car without any loss in quality. Most days my real job is slow enough where I'd be willing to add some UberSELECT pings to my workload, but it's NOT worth it to me get UberX pings while I'm working my real job given how often UberX pings come in. So I'm only online around 10 to 12 hours a week because of the stupid UberX requirement. If I could only get UberSELECT pings I'd go online 40 to 50 hours a week. I'd make less per Uber hour, but MORE PER WEEK! This is a concept the Uber manager of Columbus does NOT understand. He is pigeon holed in his vision that drivers have NOTHING more to do than driver for Uber, so they should be setup to get the maximum amount of requests per hour. He wants quantity over quality because after all I'm just a driver in his eyes. I want quality over quantity because my real job is not worth interrupting for a $2.40 Walmart pickup. So both myself and Uber lose because he can't comprehend that.


I want your day job!! ☺
So, in Dallas, you CAN do Select only but you'd hardly ever make money because it's so slow! So I'm forced to do both, that way I can accept surging X requests in my luxury car. My acceptance rate is sh!t though.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

I asked the Columbus office (they run Clevland, Cols and Cincy) to set me up with two accounts -
one for uberSELECT only and one for uberSELECT+ uberX ... and they refused.
I wanted to be able to choose ebtween the two accounts when I'm online - 
and they won't allow it.

The reason has to do with how uber generates it's revenues - and that comes from DRIVER EFFICIENCY (car utilization)...
The more rides a driver does in an hour, the more money uber makes...

Remember - just as drivers get a 'base fare' - uber gets the SRF.
So on a $5 min X fare, the driver only sees $2.40... 
and has expenses on top of it.
*But Uber sees $2.60 for that same ride - 
with no directly attributable expense*.
($1 SRF + $1.60 comm.)

If a SELECT driver is only doing SELECT fares, then the utilization of that car is very low...
and Uber makes less than if that car is available for any X or SELECT request.

So much for driver's having 'control' over their business, eh?!


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I asked the Columbus office (they run Clevland, Cols and Cincy) to set me up with two accounts -
> one for uberSELECT only and one for uberSELECT+ uberX ... and they refused.
> I wanted to be able to choose ebtween the two accounts when I'm online -
> and they won't allow it.
> ...


Yep. I'm dealing with the same manager. I think he's four or five years out of college at best, and if what he's told doesn't come from his bosses then it must be false in his opinion.

Me: Hey James Ondrey.... what's better for Uber?.... me making $400 in fares being online for UberSELECT for 40 hours in a week?... or me making $200 in fares being online for both UberX and UberSELECT for 10 hours a week?
James Ondrey: Well, in the 40 hours you only generated $10 per hour in fares, and in the 10 hours you generated $20 per hour in fares, so the $20 per hour is better for Uber.
Me: Okay Little Jimmy.... I'll do your UberX/UberSelect requirement which limits me to being online only 10 hours a week instead of earning an additional $200 in fares for Uber.... (you dumbass).


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## uberdriver (Aug 4, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> .... I've got a running list of people who use Uber for minimum rides during my work times. I can't afford to eat bullshit rides for Uber and I'll do everything I can to avoid them. I've successfully "trained" a couple riders who will cancel me when I accept their trip. After having me cancel on them after five minutes, they have figured out that I have no interest in driving them a couple miles down the road. These people use Uber to get a ride to work in the mornings. They only work a few miles away from where they live. I'll let some new driver waste their time and money.
> 
> Invariably, I'll get hit with a few minimum fare rides from time to time. Whenever this happens, I let them know how little I make on these types of rides. I engage them in conversation to learn how, when and why they use Uber. If they are too cheap to tip on minimum rides, I'll never take them again. On my list they go. Rate me poorly. I could care less.


How big is the Uber market where you drive ? To make a list of the riders that do minimum fare trips and have that list be meaningful later on so as to avoid getting minimum fares you must be in a market with a substantial chance of getting the same rider more than once. In a market like DC with over 25,000 drivers and may be close to half a million users, I am not sure your technique would be workable. Thoughts ?

BTW, great original post in the thread.


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

uberdriver said:


> How big is the Uber market where you drive ? To make a list of the riders that do minimum fare trips and have that list be meaningful later on so as to avoid getting minimum fares you must be in a market with a substantial chance of getting the same rider more than once. In a market like DC with over 25,000 drivers and may be close to half a million users, I am not sure your technique would be workable. Thoughts ?
> 
> BTW, great original post in the thread.


I see why my post confused you. I work out of my home as a base and wait for pings sitting on my couch, drinking coffee and checking e-mails. I turn on the Ap very early a few mornings each week fishing for airport runs or people going to work. The list of people using Uber for short rides that I referred to, are those who request rides near my home base. Once I'm away from base, I'm at the mercy of luck and my list doesn't apply. After a long run, I often turn off the app and deadhead back home. I actually think that is more productive for me as the risk of the dreaded minimum fare has increased. That's just my strategy.


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## KevRyde (Jan 27, 2015)

Yes, and in fact I earlier today I posted this reply to another thread.


KevRyde said:


> My primary performance measurement is average hourly earnings after gas, or AHEAG. My rideshare "career" to date best day (3/8) and best week both occurred the first week in March when my AHEAG for the week was $24.87. At that time, Uber/Lyft Denver rates were $0.95/$1.41, and Uber was still offering hostage pay in the form of hourly guarantees just to keep drivers on the road. In early May, Uber raised rates to $1.10, and in early July - when Lyft lowered rates to match Uber - I converted my scheduled airport riders from Lyft to direct pay ("KevRyde"). My KevRyde business fell off quite a bit in July, and Uber hasn't offered a pay guarantee since July 4 weekend, so the combination of those two factors resulted in my AHEAG trending down for the month.
> 
> View attachment 11422
> View attachment 11423


I discuss this and my approach in general in even more detail in a *thread I posted at the end of June.*


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KevRyde said:


> Yes, and in fact I earlier today I posted this reply to another thread.
> I discuss this and my approach in general in even more detail in a *thread I posted at the end of June.*


Kudos to you for actually considering all of your expenses - including 15% fed ssi, fed income tax and state income tax. That makes you a 1%er. Maybe even a .5%er.

Question - does your state require the self employed to pay unemployment insurance? Workers comp?


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

renbutler said:


> Except for weighted words like "preys," "scammed," and "steals," I agree with all of this.
> Bottom line, you have to be smart to make money. Uber doesn't prevent anybody from doing the math. They don't (normally) take anything that you didn't agree to. They do make it pretty difficult to turn a hefty profit, but they obviously aren't having any trouble getting people to sign on anyway. That's our problem, not theirs.


In your words I hear, _"the market will fix everything"_... as if things will balance themselves out in time.

Whether someone sees Uber (and perhaps more specifically Travis) as someone who_ 'preys'_,_ 'scams'_, or _'steals'_... or not, that is their prerogative. However, I would not disagree in this case. It has become rather clear that Travis believes in using aggressive tactics in all his business dealings. The slightest hint of opposition and you become targeted as an enemy and are dealt with as such. According to CSRs that have worked inside Uber, there is a pretty clear sense that they place very little concern about the well being of their drivers, because in their eyes, we are expendable and easily replaceable. Hard to get excited about working with a company with that kind of mindset. Sort of like forming a business agreement with a Great White Shark... if you are careful, you may benefit from that relationship. But one mistake and you could lose your life. If that is the kind of business relationship you like to engage in, by all means, defend Uber. But I think the rest of us will agree that if we are to benefit from working with Uber, we are going to have to be careful, smart, and very tactful in how we deal with them. In many cases, it is simply not a sustainable relationship, as they wield the controls which they continually tweak in their favor, leaving smaller and smaller crumbs for us drivers - while they rake in the billions.

Yes, I have to agree with RealityShark, Uber is sort of like a casino. And judging by some of the comments their brass have been caught saying, they even have the mobster mentality that goes with it.


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## KevRyde (Jan 27, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Question - does your state require the self employed to pay unemployment insurance? Workers comp?


In general, only businesses with one or more employees who are classified as W-2 wage earners are required to pay unemployment insurance premiums - e.g. FUTA/SUTA taxes. If you are the sole owner of a business that you structure as a sole proprietorship or single member LLC, then you are considered self employed and not an employee of your own business. If, however, you structure your business as a corporation (S- or C-corp), then you are both a shareholder and an officer of your business, and as an officer, you must compensate yourself - to a certain degree - as a w-2 employee, generate a payroll and withhold and pay all payroll taxes. Here is *a link to a an article* that in my opinion is a good read on this subject.

Rules for workers compensation insurance, however, vary from state to state but to a degree are similar to unemployment insurance requirements in that only businesses with employees are required to maintain a workers compensation plan. In Colorado, for example, any business with one or more employees is required to maintain a workers compensation insurance plan, however

_"A corporate officer of a corporation or a member of a limited liability company may elect to reject the requirement to carry workers' compensation insurance."_​_
_


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## cls225 (Jul 19, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> Who actually bothers to figure out their hourly rate? I do, and it speaks volumes. The knowledge that came from calculating my hourly rate has caused me to drive significantly less which has resulted in more profit and less wasted time. Profit does not equal money. Initially, figuring out my hourly rate opened my eyes to quit driving all together. I started driving again, but I only drive with a very calculated game plan in mind. I only drive a few hours per week in a very limited area. I have come to understand, that the more you drive, the less profit you actually see.
> 
> Uber preys on drivers greed in the exact same way a slot machine entices its' victims in a casino. Uber has a button allowing you to see your earnings. You can see daily, weekly and yearly earnings. These notices are just like a slot machine which has your cash staring you in the face, encouraging you to play again for the big payoff which seldom comes. Simple greed causes many drivers to play again and again. Uber is relentless with their endless text messages and e-mails trying to get you back to the game. Hot spots, local events, surge pricing, guarantees. They do this only for their benefit. It's the flashing lights and the lure of big money in the Uber casino. The reality is, you'll get stuck in traffic, trying to find the big payoff while your hourly wage erodes to nothing. All the other greedy drivers flooding the area only serves to compound the problem.
> 
> ...


Like a drug addict chasing their first high....

Ok I am roflmao, I literally have tears from laffin so hard you r too funny. In all seriousness though I totally agree. I needed this laff, to keep from crying. I am waiting for a phone call for a part time job, praying I get it.

I used to do office work, however, after losing my son and getting cancer, I had to quit. I see how people like myself, who truly have needs financially (heck who don't?) Can "Drink the uber juice". Thanks again for the laff...


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## UberRidiculous (May 19, 2015)

cls225 said:


> Like a drug addict chasing their first high....
> 
> Ok I am roflmao, I literally have tears from laffin so hard you r too funny. In all seriousness though I totally agree. I needed this laff, to keep from crying. I am waiting for a phone call for a part time job, praying I get it.
> 
> I used to do office work, however, after losing my son and getting cancer, I had to quit. I see how people like myself, who truly have needs financially (heck who don't?) Can "Drink the uber juice". Thanks again for the laff...


Wow cls225 thank you for this. Because usually if the post is long, I scroll right past it, but after reading your post, you made me want to read Realityshark long post. I'm glad I did. It is deserving of a much more prominent place for distribution. Realityshark should consider seeing if this can be submitted to an editorial page in something like the NYTimes or BuzzFeed or any other channel with a longer reach. Thank-you both. And btw, cls225 avatar is also waaaaay too funny!


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## Uber Wifey (Jul 24, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> For someone who trashes my posts on a regular basis, it's creepy that you reply everytime I put something up. Considering that you admitted in one of your posts that you drive for Uber to check out "the hot soccer moms" only serves to reinforce your true colors. Go back to creeping on the hot soccer moms and kindly hit ignore next to my name.


Funny chit a shark being preyed on.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> Profit does not equal money.


Wait, what?
Profit does indeed equal money -
that's why it's called profit!
hehe... I didn't catch that before...
I *_think_* you meant that what Uber shows as your 'earnings' do not equal money/profit ... Right?


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## Uber Wifey (Jul 24, 2015)

Is there anywhere on the app that you can see hours?


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Uber Wifey said:


> Is there anywhere on the app that you can see hours?


Weekly report


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## Uber Wifey (Jul 24, 2015)

Doesnt say hours log in


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)




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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> View attachment 11522












Overlapped hours

Does not include cash tips, both from Uber and Lyft riders.. yes some Lyft riders gave cash... actually more than I received in app. Very few Uber riders gave tips, despite having almost 3 times the number of rides.

I cringe at the thought of what my hourly wage might be, esp when you factor in gas etc.
Rate cuts are killing us.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn said:


> View attachment 11523
> Overlapped hours
> Does not include cash tips, both from Uber and Lyft riders.. yes some Lyft riders gave cash... actually more than I received in app. Very few Uber riders gave tips, despite having almost 3 times the number of rides.


Excluding tips, you made 2x with uber what you made with lyft on an hourly basis.
Doesn't that make you wonder how many uber rides you missed while driving lyft rides? 
(that's the reason I stopped driving lyft & uber and drive uber only)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm pretty happy with my 'productivity' now that I'm mostly doing late afternoons and early evenings only...
especially considering that about 1/3 of my "hours online" are now spent in my home office working while waiting for that first 'ping' to get me out & about... (and my tips from the generous 5% of riders add up to around 20% of my earnings each week).


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Excluding tips, you made 2x with uber what you made with lyft on an hourly basis.
> Doesn't that make you wonder how many uber rides you missed while driving lyft rides?
> (that's the reason I stopped driving lyft & uber and drive uber only)


Unfortunately, that isn't a very accurate way to interpret the results.
Those hours were overlapping. Meaning both apps on until a ping. 
In general, Uber will ping long before Lyft. Therefore my Uber hours online are much longer.
Uber is simply the 1000 lb ridesharing gorilla in Dallas at the moment. They have the larger customer base.

Total trips with Lyft: 10
Total trips with Uber: 33

On top of that, this week, they opened DFW Airport to UberX and Lyft.
While Uber seems to have the system working well for DFW, Lyft seems to be having some issues.
I was getting Lyft pings (while parked in DFW) for requests originating in Uptown Dallas (20-25 minutes away).
No way was I moving to go chase after them, so I found myself often turning off the Lyft app because of the nonstop pings from outside the airport.

If Lyft fixes their awful metrics for drivers inside DFW airport, I might actually have had trips from DFW through Lyft, but alas... I did not have any this week.
So Uber has a bit of an advantage this week (and the next few weeks until Lyft fixes their crappy metrics)

Besides, do not want to get in the habit of relying solely on Uber.
Getting paid 2 times a week (Tuesday and Thursday) is pretty cool too.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn said:


> Unfortunately, that isn't a very accurate way to interpret the results.
> Those hours were overlapping. Meaning both apps on until a ping.


Yes - but that's what makes them 'equal' for comparison: Uber ride accepted - lyft app off and vice-versa.
I get your point.
I was just pointing out that every time I logged-off Uber in favor of a Lyft ride, I was losing the opportunity of a higher Uber fare...
while when I was on an Uber ride (Lyft app off) I knew I wasn't missing much.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I'm pretty happy with my 'productivity' now that I'm mostly doing late afternoons and early evenings only...
> especially considering that about 1/3 of my "hours online" are now spent in my home office working while waiting for that first 'ping' to get me out & about... (and my tips from the generous 5% of riders add up to around 20% of my earnings each week).


Well you are driving UberSelect so I can see why you would make more with fewer trips. I have been asking other UberSelect drivers in DFW about their productivity and some have said that there isn't a lot of business for UberSelect, though it is still growing in Dallas. If I had a nice SUV, I would drive UberSelect and alternate between UberXL and UberSelect as needed.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Yes - but that's what makes them 'equal' for comparison: Uber ride accepted - lyft app off and vice-versa.
> I get your point.
> I was just pointing out that every time I logged-off Uber in favor of a Lyft ride, I was losing the opportunity of a higher Uber fare...
> while when I was on an Uber ride (Lyft app off) I knew I wasn't missing much.


I think technically, Lyft pays the higher fare at the moment... UberX compared to standard Lyft.
AND I get more tips... I had about $40 in cash tips (mostly from Lyft riders) in addition to the $12.
So I will continue to use Lyft. I lose nothing unless there is a surge, at which time I usually turn Lyft off.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn said:


> Well you are driving UberSelect so I can see why you would make more with fewer trips.


just took a look ... only 1 of those 19 trips for last week was SELECT (lower than normal %)... but it was a whopper: $130+


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## AshyLarry81 (Mar 2, 2015)

I have kept an Excel spreadsheet log of all my driving hours (including dead miles), fares plus tips, estimated depreciation, and gas costs. My net salary is $12.52/hr. I don't count the hours that I spend at home while the app is on - only when I'm physically in my car. Is the pay great? Of course not, but it's better than some BS retail job while I'm temporarily in between jobs. It's also a good amount higher than the current minimum wage of $8.38 in NJ.


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

UberRidiculous said:


> Wow cls225 thank you for this. Because usually if the post is long, I scroll right past it, but after reading your post, you made me want to read Realityshark long post. I'm glad I did. It is deserving of a much more prominent place for distribution. Realityshark should consider seeing if this can be submitted to an editorial page in something like the NYTimes or BuzzFeed or any other channel with a longer reach. Thank-you both. And btw, cls225 avatar is also waaaaay too funny!


If you liked that post, check out this one:

http://www.uberpeople.net/threads/helpful-tips-for-all-the-new-drivers-part-1.30099/


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

cls225 said:


> Thanks again for the laff...


Here's one you might like:

http://www.uberpeople.net/threads/helpful-tips-for-all-the-new-drivers-part-1.30099/


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## turbovator (Aug 3, 2015)

Micmac said:


> Hi mike you are right I did not include all you what mention I m with you $1.75 an hour. Bottomline i m looking to get out this sh*t don't have options now.


Your lucky, l would estimate %80 of the Uber drivers never get or don't understand the true bottomline of what you make driving Uber, because they have no clue of the per mile vehicle expense.


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## PowerTrip (Aug 18, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> Who actually bothers to figure out their hourly rate? I do, and it speaks volumes. The knowledge that came from calculating my hourly rate has caused me to drive significantly less which has resulted in more profit and less wasted time. Profit does not equal money. Initially, figuring out my hourly rate opened my eyes to quit driving all together. I started driving again, but I only drive with a very calculated game plan in mind. I only drive a few hours per week in a very limited area. I have come to understand, that the more you drive, the less profit you actually see.
> 
> Uber preys on drivers greed in the exact same way a slot machine entices its' victims in a casino. Uber has a button allowing you to see your earnings. You can see daily, weekly and yearly earnings. These notices are just like a slot machine which has your cash staring you in the face, encouraging you to play again for the big payoff which seldom comes. Simple greed causes many drivers to play again and again. Uber is relentless with their endless text messages and e-mails trying to get you back to the game. Hot spots, local events, surge pricing, guarantees. They do this only for their benefit. It's the flashing lights and the lure of big money in the Uber casino. The reality is, you'll get stuck in traffic, trying to find the big payoff while your hourly wage erodes to nothing. All the other greedy drivers flooding the area only serves to compound the problem.
> 
> ...


You could try an app called Sherpashare
Automatically integrate each trip's earnings from Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Sidecar and more. Quickly manually enter for other services.
Easily enter (or import) expenses and see how this affects your net earnings.
Capture your complete mileage and time worked, not just when you have passengers and goods.
sherpashare.com/register?refid=SP24901


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## Desert Driver (Nov 9, 2014)

Experienced drivers who truly understand how to calculate costs understand that the actual hourly wage with Uber is typically about $7 to $9 per hour. However, more experienced drivers like Realityshark and this malnourished coyote understand that that by being selective that it is possible to raise one's _actual _hourly wage to possibly $10 or $11. Of course, Uber likes to talk about drivers earning $25 and $35 per hour, but experienced drivers know that at current rates there is no way in hell any Uber driver anywhere can make those kinds of wages after *properly *calculating the true costs encountered. Remember folks, cashing out the equity in your car prematurely is not the same as earning a profit.


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## Desert Driver (Nov 9, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> I've been fine tuning my "cherry picking" technique as well. Frankly I'm still waiting for Uber to stick me on their 72 hour probation bullshit....like I care. I've got a running list of people who use Uber for minimum rides during my work times. I can't afford to eat bullshit rides for Uber and I'll do everything I can to avoid them. I've successfully "trained" a couple riders who will cancel me when I accept their trip. After having me cancel on them after five minutes, they have figured out that I have no interest in driving them a couple miles down the road. These people use Uber to get a ride to work in the mornings. They only work a few miles away from where they live. I'll let some new driver waste their time and money.
> 
> Invariably, I'll get hit with a few minimum fare rides from time to time. Whenever this happens, I let them know how little I make on these types of rides. I engage them in conversation to learn how, when and why they use Uber. If they are too cheap to tip on minimum rides, I'll never take them again. On my list they go. Rate me poorly. I could care less.
> 
> Any insights you care to share to identify minimum fare rides, before they happen, would be greatly appreciated. They are the kiss of death and Uber does everything to try to get you to pick them up.


The sad truth is, unless or until a driver figures out how to effectively cherry pick, any actual profits will remain elusive. Sadly, with all the rate cuts, Uber has forced drivers to game the system.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Desert Driver said:


> The sad truth is, unless or until a driver figures out how to effectively cherry pick, any actual profits will remain elusive. Sadly, with all the rate cuts, Uber has forced drivers to game the system.


That is the truth...

One of the guys on this forum clearly cherry picks trips for surge and it worked well for him, more than twice what what I made from my Aug 11 post for almost the same amount of time online.
Is it realistic? no idea.. I have gamed surges very minimally only during certain hours when I know a surge will hit.
I have never seen much consistency with that approach however... it seems boom or bust.

On the downside, he doesn't know the total hours he was out driving (with the app off included - while waiting for surge).. as the 26.9 hours the app was on probably does not paint an accurate picture


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

KeJorn said:


> That is the truth...
> 
> One of the guys on this forum clearly cherry picks trips for surge and it worked well for him, more than twice what what I made from my Aug 11 post for almost the same amount of time online.
> Is it realistic? no idea.. I have gamed surges very minimally only during certain hours when I know a surge will hit.
> ...


You don't turn the app off. You skip while you wait for surge.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> You don't turn the app off. You skip while you wait for surge.


Maybe that is how you do it, but I know many who turn off the app, turn on the rider app and watch the surge that way... then turn on their driver app when the surge hits where they want it...
Otherwise your acceptance rating takes a huge hit... seems pointless to remain logged in then. What I just stated makes more sense.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Learn to skip. See my signiature. When drivers jump on when they see surge, it vanishes. Stay logged on and skip and you will get the surge ping first.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> Learn to skip. See my signiature. When drivers jump on when they see surge, it vanishes. Stay logged on and skip and you will get the surge ping first.


I know how to cancel a ride... still an acceptance rating hit.
That makes sense when you are talking about a surge of like say under 2x...
But when surging above 2x, it's not going away when you sign on... and you will still get the ping (if you are the closest driver)...
Besides, the surge on the rider app has proven to be more accurate than the driver app and will dictate whether they get charged a surge and at what rate. Some have noticed the driver app lags behind and 2 drivers apps in the same area may report completely different heat maps.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

KeJorn said:


> I know how to cancel a ride... still an acceptance rating hit.


No it isn't, if you do it fast enough. You actually end up accepting 100% of the pings - so no hit to the acceptance rate. I do it all the time. Aint that right Showa50 ?


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## The_One (Sep 9, 2015)

Hondaguy7643 said:


> Excellent post. From the very first day I drove, to present, I have had a spreadsheet to keep track of all factors involved including hourly wage. It tracks hourly wage based off of what Uber pays out AND then after expenses (gas, maintenance, depreciation) are taken out. I have the "net pay after expenses" column highlighted in light green to direct my eyes to what I'm actually making. The spreadsheet is constantly "under construction" as I keep finding things to add, subtract, or re-work.
> 
> I've noticed in recent months that my average hourly wage is falling, and getting harder to bring back up. I partially blame it on the fact that surge in Houston has diminished greatly, and it's harder to make guarantee's with an over saturation of drivers out there. Not to mention the ridiculous minimum requirements that Uber keeps changing.
> 
> ...


Is that $12 an hour worth the risk you take every time you pick up a pax with your passenger license plates, if you own a home, or any kind of next egg, it is a risk not worth taking. But desperation leads to not so smart decisions, heck, Uber could care less is you drove off a cliff.


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## Hondaguy7643 (Apr 18, 2015)

The_One said:


> Is that $12 an hour worth the risk you take every time you pick up a pax with your passenger license plates, if you own a home, or any kind of next egg, it is a risk not worth taking. But desperation leads to not so smart decisions, heck, Uber could care less is you drove off a cliff.


Houston requires every driver to obtain a TNC license and permit. To obtain those requires a physical/drug test, fire extinguisher, warrant check for driving history, fingerprinting for FBI background check, and car inspection at the permitting office. Not sure what you mean by "passenger plates" because if drivers are following the law put in place, for TNC's like Uber, by their respective municipalities then the kind of plate on the car means nothing.

It should also be pointed out that Uber isn't my main source of income so all the other things mentioned in your post aren't affected either way.

Aside from all of that I'm about a week from letting my account with Uber slide into deactivation because I haven't given a ride in almost a month. Honestly I'm ok with that because the guarantees got crappier and surge almost all but disappeared compared to what it used to be.


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## ZoomZoomZoom (Aug 31, 2015)

Realityshark said:


> I've been fine tuning my "cherry picking" technique as well. Frankly I'm still waiting for Uber to stick me on their 72 hour probation bullshit....like I care. I've got a running list of people who use Uber for minimum rides during my work times. I can't afford to eat bullshit rides for Uber and I'll do everything I can to avoid them. I've successfully "trained" a couple riders who will cancel me when I accept their trip. After having me cancel on them after five minutes, they have figured out that I have no interest in driving them a couple miles down the road. These people use Uber to get a ride to work in the mornings. They only work a few miles away from where they live. I'll let some new driver waste their time and money.
> 
> Invariably, I'll get hit with a few minimum fare rides from time to time. Whenever this happens, I let them know how little I make on these types of rides. I engage them in conversation to learn how, when and why they use Uber. If they are too cheap to tip on minimum rides, I'll never take them again. On my list they go. Rate me poorly. I could care less.
> 
> Any insights you care to share to identify minimum fare rides, before they happen, would be greatly appreciated. They are the kiss of death and Uber does everything to try to get you to pick them up.


In Montreal Quebec, I heard of ppl forcing artificial surges by drivers getting together and in a zone that pings come in to ignore them.. But I think Uber got smart recently and I'm sure they troll the forums here too.. Anyhow if you ignore three pings you're automatically signed offline. 
Ideally it be a cool feature to know the pick up and drop off location before you even accept.. But how most are suggesting that the riders are favored over drivers.. I'm starting to see this.. I think my city has too many drivers. I sometimes sign into uber rider request app to see where otter drivers are. And from what I've seen, ppl rush to surge zones that the surge just disappears. Ideally id like to have a more structured strategy going into my shifts.

I really hope a Montreal section opens up soon, here. Its crazy how Montreal has population of bout 5 million, whereas Edmonton has just under a million and even they have their own section.


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## nooneyouknowof (Sep 28, 2015)

If you're making less than $12.50 an hour (and that's on the low end), you're doing it wrong. Try only working Friday and Saturday from 10-3. Your hourly rate will go up. Those hours net me about $17-$21 an hour, depending on the night. Yes, I understand there is gas and maintenance costs, but you can deduct 57.5 cents a mile on your taxes, which more than pays for that stuff.


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## IckyDoody (Sep 18, 2015)

nooneyouknowof said:


> If you're making less than $12.50 an hour (and that's on the low end), you're doing it wrong. Try only working Friday and Saturday from 10-3. Your hourly rate will go up. Those hours net me about $17-$21 an hour, depending on the night. Yes, I understand there is gas and maintenance costs, but you can deduct 57.5 cents a mile on your taxes, which more than pays for that stuff.


So what you're saying here basically is that you don't know your net hourly, but you think it's above $12.50? This is exactly what Uber wants. In fact, Uber's entire business model is dependent on drivers not doing the math. Do your self a favor, do the math. If your car is worth more than 10k, you're probably better off quitting uber, selling your car and buying a car for 5k. You'll end up in the same spot, car wise and finance wise, only you will save the time that you spend driving uber.

Ashy Larry's numbers are TRUE NET HOURLY. By this metric, he is probably in the top %5 of drivers (excluding NY city). I would give 10 to 1 odds with my entire net worth (admittedly not much) that your true hourly (even with cherry picking) is less than $12.50.

According to Uber math, I was at $23/hour last week. My true net hourly for that week: $11.61/hr


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## William1964 (Jul 28, 2015)

I stop tracking hours after uber reprimanded me after someone threw up in my car and gave me 20 bux.

My bottom line is my guage of whether or not this job is profitable. As for being worth my time give me a break. My time is only valuable if money is coming in period money won't come in if I'm not doing something like work. The gold silver bonds stocks state fluctuate the savings bonds always go up every day.

But just to play along, today I have worked 1 hour 6 minutes and netted $41.88. That's four trips in one hour 12:30 a.m. to 1:36 a.m.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

renbutler said:


> Except for weighted words like "preys," "scammed," and "steals," I agree with all of this.
> 
> Bottom line, you have to be smart to make money. Uber doesn't prevent anybody from doing the math. They don't (normally) take anything that you didn't agree to. They do make it pretty difficult to turn a hefty profit, but they obviously aren't having any trouble getting people to sign on anyway. That's our problem, not theirs.


You are entitled to object to those loaded words (prey, scam, steals), and I tend to see your point that drivers should just focus on gaming the system and stop complaining, but I don't mind the loaded words. The OP is simply stating the obvious facts. UBER is not a great company who has the drivers best interest in mind. The onus is on the driver to make it worthwhile for themselves. The sad reality though is that smartest, cherry-picking-est, gamers of UBER are still only capable of netting about $12.00-15.00 per hour. This is really pitiful, considering the talents these smart drivers possess.

I'm out of UBER for the present. It makes me feel kinda dirty to associate myself with them frankly. I don't want to play the games with customers and chase SURGE. I'd rather spend time building my own non-UBER client base. There's plenty of good work for me because I focus on quality over quantity.

If UBER radically changes their model so that it works well for drivers, then I'd consider coming back. Not likely though.
But I do believe that alternative systems are coming soon from competitors.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Yes I think you should look at your hourly average. For the simple reason that there's only so much time in a day. What else could you do to earn money during that time?


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> Who actually bothers to figure out their hourly rate? I do, and it speaks volumes. The knowledge that came from calculating my hourly rate has caused me to drive significantly less which has resulted in more profit and less wasted time. Profit does not equal money. Initially, figuring out my hourly rate opened my eyes to quit driving all together. I started driving again, but I only drive with a very calculated game plan in mind. I only drive a few hours per week in a very limited area. I have come to understand, that the more you drive, the less profit you actually see.
> 
> Uber preys on drivers greed in the exact same way a slot machine entices its' victims in a casino. Uber has a button allowing you to see your earnings. You can see daily, weekly and yearly earnings. These notices are just like a slot machine which has your cash staring you in the face, encouraging you to play again for the big payoff which seldom comes. Simple greed causes many drivers to play again and again. Uber is relentless with their endless text messages and e-mails trying to get you back to the game. Hot spots, local events, surge pricing, guarantees. They do this only for their benefit. It's the flashing lights and the lure of big money in the Uber casino. The reality is, you'll get stuck in traffic, trying to find the big payoff while your hourly wage erodes to nothing. All the other greedy drivers flooding the area only serves to compound the problem.
> 
> ...


POST # 1/Realityshark: S U P E R-
L A T I V E ...E F F O R T!
☆ No Snark
☆ All Shark!

BTW: Although I MAY not  have updated
your "listed stats", back on 09SEP15 the
number was 174.718%. With recent
efforts tallied, 182.775% charts your
improvement: sole possession of 7th 
Place of nearly 36,000 Sequentially Num-
bered Membership Applicants.

Bison Admires.
Bison Inspires!


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## raegae (Mar 11, 2016)

UberHammer said:


> Great post!
> 
> I've also learned to use the buffer Uber gives us in our acceptance rates/cancelation rates to avoid unprofitable requests sent to me. People can call this "cherry picking" all they want, but I see the problem as Uber's system needs to be fixed so it stops throwing rotten lemons at drivers. Until it's fixed, I'm not accepting rotten lemon requests.


What is this "buffer" system to avoid unprofitable requests you are talking about?


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

raegae said:


> What is this "buffer" system to avoid unprofitable requests you are talking about?


Hammer is referring to the acceptance and cancellation rates. You are "allowed" to reject jobs and cancel jobs occasionally. That's the buffer. It a percentage that's tallied.

Personally, I don't agree that Uber should be controlling anything about my choices.
It's none of their business. Give me transparency and control, or forget it.


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

stuber said:


> Personally, I don't agree that Uber should be controlling anything about my choices.
> It's none of their business. Give me transparency and control, or forget it.


So you contract with a family to do their laundry as an independent laundry contractor. And on Monday they send you five baskets of dirty clothes. On Tuesday you send back three clean baskets and two dirty baskets. When they ask why you didn't wash two of the baskets you explain to them that you're just exercising your "transparency and control."


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Exactly. Those other two were smeared with excrement. I didn't want to put those in MY washing machine. They'll just need to find another service provider.


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## GILD (Feb 8, 2016)

$4 an hour sounds about right. I know i get that about.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Coachman said:


> So you contract with a family to do their laundry as an independent laundry contractor. And on Monday they send you five baskets of dirty clothes. On Tuesday you send back three clean baskets and two dirty baskets. When they ask why you didn't wash two of the baskets you explain to them that you're just exercising your "transparency and control."


FAIL.

The correct analogy would be:
A company advertises local laundry services. 
They don't do laundry, they outsource the work to independent contractors who can accept work, if they want to... 
if one contractor doesn't do it, the company sends the work to another contractor.
You contract with that company to receive laundry job requests from them.
Over the course of the day, you accept three of those job requests and decline two others.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Coachman said:


> So you contract with a family to do their laundry as an independent laundry contractor. And on Monday they send you five baskets of dirty clothes. On Tuesday you send back three clean baskets and two dirty baskets. When they ask why you didn't wash two of the baskets you explain to them that you're just exercising your "transparency and control."


I don't see the problem here. The Uber/driver contract specifically states the driver holds the right to accept or reject requests. The "acceptance rate" Uber holds over drivers heads is NOT in the contract at all. If we are going by the contract, a driver has a contractual right to reject all of them. It's the "acceptance rate" that is not contractual.


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## August 9 (May 6, 2016)

Jimmy D said:


> I work from 8pm to 5am. The airport runs happen Sat & Sun starting at 3:30am (last night).
> 
> I pick up the "over the limit" people from 10 pm to 1am.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your positive attitude ,nice to see.I like your 8 to 5 am shift strategy it will work great in my town..


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## August 9 (May 6, 2016)

Amen.


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