# Not at-fault accident- lost wages?



## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

I was recently in an accident. Police came to the scene and determined the other driver was at fault.

The other driver's insurance is covering the entire cost of repair to my car. However, I'm having to fight with them for my lost wages.

I've sent 6 weeks worth of pay stubs to the adjustor and established an average weekly pay. My car will be off the road for 4 weeks so I'm asking for four weeks worth of pay.

Initially the adjustor seemed OK with it, but when they sent me an offer for a settlement, they only offered to cover 25% of my wages, claiming that Uber was limiting my income, not the fact that their driver wrecked my car.

Obviously I said no deal, pay what what I asked for!!!!!!
They brought it up to 35% but nowhere near the wages I've lost. I'm not accepting this either.

I've read about other drivers getting compensated for lost wages in accidents where they were not at fault.

Any advice on dealing with these goons?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

They are trying to get you to agree. Demand 100% and take no less. You may have to sue the driver for the money.



ninja2436 said:


> Initially the adjustor seemed OK with it, but when they sent me an offer for a settlement, they only offered to cover 25% of my wages, claiming that Uber was limiting my income, not the fact that their driver wrecked my car.


What does that mean that they claimed Uber was limiting your income?


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

This is from the e-mail I got from the adjustor-
"As for your wage loss claim, we have provided you with a rental vehicle which Uber and Lyft have both claimed that they will not allow you to use to continue earning. We have put this under extensive consideration and find that both Uber and Lyft are primarily the ones limiting your income making them partially responsible especially if you have commercial insurance through them. Please also keep in mind you are entitled to your losses, simply because your own personal vehicle was not available for use as an Uber/Lyft vehicle does not mean that a loss was suffered."

Seems like BS.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

ninja2436 said:


> This is from the e-mail I got from the adjustor-
> "As for your wage loss claim, we have provided you with a rental vehicle which Uber and Lyft have both claimed that they will not allow you to use to continue earning. We have put this under extensive consideration and find that both Uber and Lyft are primarily the ones limiting your income making them partially responsible especially if you have commercial insurance through them. Please also keep in mind you are entitled to your losses, simply because your own personal vehicle was not available for use as an Uber/Lyft vehicle does not mean that a loss was suffered."
> 
> Seems like BS.


complete BS, and makes no sense
GET A LAWYER
don't accept no 25% or 35% , they should be paying AT MININUM the average you worked out. They should pay that average up until your car is back on the road,PERIOD

GET A LAWYER, they are trying to get over on you
I assume you don't have proper insurance, because if you did,they wouldn't be sendin you any letters, they would be sending it to your insurance lawyers, and they are already hip to the BS. I have ridshare insurance and they would get my full average pay from the guy was at fault


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Call the adjuster again. Go through the usual conversation, let him feed you his oom-wah-wah. Then tell him that your neck hurts and that you are going to see your doctor to-morrow. If he offers you seventy-five per-cent of the lost wages, you might do well to take it.

You can go to a TV lawyer, if you want. Understand a few things about them, though:

1. They will tell you that they get one-third of whatever you get. That one third is pure profit. All expenses associated with the case (filing fees, the lawyers' padded transportation expenses, the "secretarial expenses" for which he already has a secretary on salary and the like) come out of your share.

2. The TV lawyers will send you to a treatment mill. This will take up more than a few hours of your time. The treatment mill will wind up with a sizable chunk of any award. It will not receive as much as the lawyer, but it will receive more than you will.

3. The last thing that a "trial" lawyer wants to do is go to trial. He will bargain away his wife's Anniversary present, your posterior and his own mother if it means that he does not have to go to trial. You could wind up with far less than even twenty-five per-cent of lost wages. Lost wages are one of the first things that "plaintiffs' lawyers" bargain away during settlement negotiations over motor vehicle collisions. The amount of their fee is the last, if it happens at all.

4. There is an old formula of "three times meds" to determine a "ballpark" settlement figure. While it does not have as much weight as it used to, it is still in the background.


The insurance company does not want you to go to a TV lawyer. If you do, it will pay out a large amount, it is simply that you will not receive very much of that.


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

I was hoping there would be something else I could do before actually getting a lawyer :/

Is it a mistake to tell them I'm planning to get a lawyer and take them to court if they can't give me fair compensation?


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## Fireguy50 (Nov 23, 2015)

Another Uber Driver said:


> Call the adjuster again. Go through the usual conversation, let him feed you his oom-wah-wah. Then tell him that your neck hurts and that you are going to see your doctor to-morrow. If he offers you seventy-five per-cent of the lost wages, you might do well to take it.
> 
> You can go to a TV lawyer, if you want. Understand a few things about them, though:
> 
> ...


Also these types of cases take 12 to 36 *MONTHS*


ninja2436 said:


> I was hoping there would be something else I could do before actually getting a lawyer :/
> 
> Is it a mistake to tell them I'm planning to get a lawyer and take them to court if they can't give me fair compensation?


No, but you need to do the math, will the check be larger after the legal fees mentioned above.
And can you wait that long for the check to finally arrive.
Once you get a Lawyer, you get ZERO until it's all over


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

Maybe it would be easier if I took the insurance company to small claims court?

But instead I would like to negotiate a reasonable settlement outside of court if possible.


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## Fireguy50 (Nov 23, 2015)

I doubt either is possible.
Better read your insurance policy, and the rules for your local small claims court


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> I was recently in an accident. Police came to the scene and determined the other driver was at fault.
> 
> The other driver's insurance is covering the entire cost of repair to my car. However, I'm having to fight with them for my lost wages.
> 
> ...


Couple of questions, what was the avg week of wages you gave them? And is the rental car compatible to the vehicle you drove? Did you have the app on or were you using your vehicle for personal use when you got in the accident?


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Fireguy50 said:


> Also these types of cases take 12 to 36 *MONTHS*
> 
> Once you get a Lawyer, you get ZERO until it's all over


They will take at least one year, as a rule. I have settled cases more quickly, but that often was where my insured was clearly at fault. I have had cases drag out longer than three years.

Sometimes the insurance company will settle the property damage immediately and you sign a Partial Release. The language usually restricts the release to any further claims for damage to your vehicle.



ninja2436 said:


> Maybe it would be easier if I took the insurance company to small claims court?
> 
> But instead I would like to negotiate a reasonable settlement outside of court if possible.


That requires much work on your part. You will need to line up your documentation, If you go the Small Claims route, the adverse insurer still will send its lawyer to Small Claims, so you will be up against a professional. Usually, there is a Mediation Session before the Court starts hearing cases. The insurer will try to offer you twenty-five to fifty per-cent and you will be under heavy pressure to accept that. Refusing it could anger the Commissioner or Magistrate who hears your case. Some of them are more moody than judges.

Try the "My neck hurts and I am going to see my Doctor to-morrow. I will call you back to-morrow". The insurance company would prefer to pay out a little more now, rather than pay out a pile, once a lawyer becomes involved. Anyone with half-an-ounce of brains knows that once the lawyers become involved, all that you do is sign cheques. In your case, if you do go with a TV lawyer, the insurer will be the only one who is signing cheques.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> Couple of questions, what was the avg week of wages you gave them? And is the rental car compatible to the vehicle you drove? Did you have the app on or were you using your vehicle for personal use when you got in the accident?


the amount shouldn't matter, as long it was the true average of his wages,they should pay

also the rental car being "compatible" to the vehicle he drove doesn't matter when it comes to doing Uber, you can't UBer with it
they are paying him for the rental car, but dispute for a better quality rental car is trivial at this point
clearly seems the main concern for the OP is that he obviously can't do Uber because his car is out of commission,and since he wasnt at fault for the accident, the other person most definitely should pay for his lost wages

Re-reading the OP, he doesn't state if the app was on, or app was off, or if he was actively on a ride(pax in car). I have to assume he doesn't have proper insurance. Now if the app was off and we he wasnt doing Uber (literally out on personal use) then clearly he should contact his insurance and they would work for him and his wages. Only problem here, Uber isn't the typical job. If he says, can you get me wages for Uber, company will be like what? Uber? You were using your car for livery??? This can open a can of worms and who knows what may happen. With luck they will fight for you, but most likely they will deny any claim or help, possible cancel, and most likely not renew you.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Bart McCoy said:


> the amount shouldn't matter, as long it was the true average of his wages,they should pay
> 
> also the rental car being "compatible" to the vehicle he drove doesn't matter when it comes to doing Uber, you can't UBer with it
> they are paying him for the rental car, but dispute for a better quality rental car is trivial at this point
> ...


See that's the point, insurance companies only "restore" to as close as original. To get any additional money is punitive damages. If he was only using his vehicle personally, then that's all the insurance company is obligated to compensate. And it definitely depends on what kind of insurance he carries. But to have a vehicle out for 4 weeks is close to totaled. I think he's in a sticky situation, and I'm sure the at fault's insurance company will contact OP's insurance to verify that the vehicle had the ability to drive commercially. Adjusters are in the business of doing only one thing, adjusting claims as low as possible.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

SEAL Team 5 said:


> See that's the point, insurance companies only "restore" to as close as original. To get any additional money is punitive damages. If he was only using his vehicle personally, then that's all the insurance company is obligated to compensate. And it definitely depends on what kind of insurance he carries. But to have a vehicle out for 4 weeks is close to totaled. I think he's in a sticky situation, and I'm sure the at fault's insurance company will contact OP's insurance to verify that the vehicle had the ability to drive commercially. Adjusters are in the business of doing only one thing, adjusting claims as low as possible.


agreed
proper insurance is key


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

I had the Uber app on with pax in the car.

I have Progressive Insurance, but they didn't take this claim because I was giving an Uber ride. So therefore my insurance in this situation would've been James River, right?

However, since the fault is entirely with the other company's driver, I haven't tried to get either Progressive or James River involved with the wage loss claim.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

ninja2436 said:


> I had the Uber app on with pax in the car.
> 
> I have Progressive Insurance, but they didn't take this claim because I was giving an Uber ride. So therefore my insurance in this situation would've been James River, right?
> 
> However, since the fault is entirely with the other company's driver, I haven't tried to get either Progressive or James River involved with the wage loss claim.


Exactly what did progressive say? Just that they wouldn't step in for the claim, but had no other issues that you were driving for Uber?


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

Progressive said my policy wouldn't cover the ride because it was being used for commercial purposes. They then tried to interrogate me about how long I've been driving for Uber, how many Uber rides I typically do, etc. I told them I couldn't remember. No changes to my policy so far.

I'm reaching out to James River to see if they can help me deal with the other insurance company.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Knowing uber they won't, but maybe they can give you a free lawyer, where they make the person at fault pay the legal fees


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## tb1984 (Jul 24, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> Progressive said my policy wouldn't cover the ride because it was being used for commercial purposes. They then tried to interrogate me about how long I've been driving for Uber, how many Uber rides I typically do, etc. I told them I couldn't remember. *No changes to my policy so far*.
> 
> I'm reaching out to James River to see if they can help me deal with the other insurance company.


I'm not sure about Progressive in your area, but you should not let your personal insurance company know that you uber. They will either cancel your policy or free-roll you when you involve in an accident like this.


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

tb1984 said:


> I'm not sure about Progressive in your area, but you should not let your personal insurance company know that you uber. They will either cancel your policy or free-roll you when you involve in an accident like this.


Hindsight is 20/20. But since I'm negotiating directly with the other driver's insurance, what does it matter?


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## tb1984 (Jul 24, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> Hindsight is 20/20. But since I'm negotiating directly with the other driver's insurance, what does it matter?


Again, your insurance company will either cancel your policy, or when you involve in an at-fault accident with the app off, they would just say that they would not cover you because you use your car for commercial purpose.

I think you should find an insurance company in your area with rideshare policy.


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

Good point, but getting new insurance in the future won't change anything about this settlement over an accident that happened a month ago. (Not meaning to sound rude, just a little stressed.)


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## Fireguy50 (Nov 23, 2015)

Did you do the math yet?
Is your max future settlement (minus legal fees) greater than what you're offered now?
And is that potential increase in money worth the longer wait?


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

I'm still negotiating with the insurance company. They are slowly raising their offer but still not close to what I'm requesting. I think I'll be able to fight for what I deserve without getting a lawyer involved.


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## Ben105 (Feb 27, 2016)

Just don't give up. They're counting on you getting tired and giving up and accepting a low-ball offer.


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## 5 Star Guy (Nov 7, 2015)

You don't need a lawyer. You aren't going to settle until you get your car back. They usually find more damage, just before they intend to get you your car back. The claim remains open and they do want to get rid of you. You can provide more wages from driving. This is the problem, anyone who says Travass provides commercial insurance is full of it. You do need TNC Gap insurance aka ride share. This would not be an issue if you had it. Like other part time jobs, it's tough to prove exactly how much income you are out. It isn't driving that is the issue, it's that you don't punch in on a set schedule. The more proof you provide, I always work Friday and Sat from 10-2, then it's hard to deny. The more your schedule varies so does your wages. They will pay, don't get a lawyer. Keep calling everyday, the more you're a pain the better. Never assume anything like they are working on it, they aren't. At least find out with the body shop when they think your car might be ready. I was out for about two months.


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## 5 Star Guy (Nov 7, 2015)

Also, do not sign a check from the insurance. You might get more than one check. If you were to use your own insurance when it isn't your fault, you would need to pay any deductible and try to get reimbursed from their insurance. I always say use their insurance when it's their fault. If your car is ready to be picked up and you have checks you should let the auto body shop know you can't get there today and call the insurance for any remaining balance. The body shop could charge you for not picking up the car on time and the rental might be billed to you for the time you didn't return it when the car was ready. You should escalate your claim if you think you are getting the runaround, call them on it and speak with someone else. The clock is ticking against you, even though it's not your fault. A total disaster and huge headache.


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

Here's some good news-
I get my car back on Wednesday and the insurance adjustor said he will make sure the repair is paid for so I can pickup the car as soon as its ready. I'll be able to get back to work but can prolong the negotiations for what I RIGHTLY DESERVE for as long as I need to


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## 5 Star Guy (Nov 7, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> Here's some good news-
> I get my car back on Wednesday and the insurance adjustor said he will make sure the repair is paid for so I can pickup the car as soon as its ready. I'll be able to get back to work but can prolong the negotiations for what I RIGHTLY DESERVE for as long as I need to


Don't count on fighting it after you get your car. That will mostly be your last check. Not sure who suggested they were working on it but if you believe they are then I have a bridge for sale. The insurance company represents the driver at fault in court and they will show that you were paid and are not owed anything else. If you get a lawyer the first thing they will ask is if you took their checks. Go escalate your claim higher up and get a straight answer. Have them email something stating that they are working on it and will probably ask for more records of proof of income for your claim.


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## SumGuy (Jul 29, 2015)

Fireguy50 said:


> Also these types of cases take 12 to 36 *MONTHS*
> 
> No, but you need to do the math, will the check be larger after the legal fees mentioned above.
> And can you wait that long for the check to finally arrive.
> Once you get a Lawyer, you get ZERO until it's all over


Loss of wages is not an injury claim. There's no need to follow you around to see if your really injured.

Both my loss of wages were in hand in 30 days from being hit.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> This is from the e-mail I got from the adjustor-
> "As for your wage loss claim, we have provided you with a rental vehicle which Uber and Lyft have both claimed that they will not allow you to use to continue earning. We have put this under extensive consideration and find that both Uber and Lyft are primarily the ones limiting your income making them partially responsible especially if you have commercial insurance through them. Please also keep in mind you are entitled to your losses, simply because your own personal vehicle was not available for use as an Uber/Lyft vehicle does not mean that a loss was suffered."
> 
> Seems like BS.


They are claiming Uber and Lyft are stopping you from using a rental car which is incorrect. You can Uber with a rental. The time that it would have taken to get that car approved is what would have stopped you from driving. New cars can take weeks or longer to get approved. It's also not listed on your insurance card and that would have been another delay. Did YOU tell them you couldn't use a rental?

I would simply say something like this: There is a process I would have to go through to get a rental car approved through both Uber and Lyft which includes uploading pictures, the registration, and an insurance card listing the rental as covered or proving my policy covers rentals during period 1 and them both accepting that as adequate. This process, uploading the documents to both companies, proving my insurance is adequate, both reviewing and checking the documents for approval, and both adding the car to my profiles, takes significant time. Then I would have to schedule inspections which would add even more time.

The burden is not on Uber, Lyft, or me to change policies or procedures to allow me to drive with a rental I would not need to drive had your client not forced me to. I can't even claim they would accept insurance that doesn't list the rental, and they have no responsibility in this to do so. I was not at fault. I have lost wages. Being as my losses caused by your client are impacting my ability to pay my bills, I'm willing to concede wages I should not have to and accept ??% as a reasonable settlement.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

tb1984 said:


> Again, your insurance company will either cancel your policy, or when you involve in an at-fault accident with the app off, they would just say that they would not cover you because you use your car for commercial purpose.
> 
> I think you should find an insurance company in your area with rideshare policy.


Only Geico drops you from what I've seen, although there may be others.

I have never heard of any driver not being covered by personal insurance app off, have you? Or is this hyperbole? I highly doubt they even could legally. Of course they can app on.

Yes, we should all have TNC insurance where available and medical.


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## tb1984 (Jul 24, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Only Geico drops you from what I've seen, although there may be others.
> 
> *I have never heard of any driver not being covered by personal insurance app off, have you? Or is this hyperbole? I highly doubt they even could legally. Of course they can app on.*
> 
> Yes, we should all have TNC insurance where available and medical.


You need something to prove that Uber/Lyft app was off when you involve in an accident. Insurance company would not believe you when you just say Uber/Lyft app was off.

But, I think that when insurance company knows that you drive for Uber/Lyft, they will use this excuse to not cover you in case of accident.


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

5 Star Guy said:


> Don't count on fighting it after you get your car. That will mostly be your last check. Not sure who suggested they were working on it but if you believe they are then I have a bridge for sale. The insurance company represents the driver at fault in court and they will show that you were paid and are not owed anything else. If you get a lawyer the first thing they will ask is if you took their checks. Go escalate your claim higher up and get a straight answer. Have them email something stating that they are working on it and will probably ask for more records of proof of income for your claim.


This is probably a good idea. My plan is to escalate the claim to the adjustor's supervisor tomorrow. I'm not going to accept the check or my car until they confirm with me in writing that I still have a lost wage claim pending.

If there's anybody out there who has had a lost wage claim, it would be a huge help if I could forward to this adjustor evidence of a driver being rewarded lost wages by at fault (other) driver's insurance.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

tb1984 said:


> You need something to prove that Uber/Lyft app was off when you involve in an accident. Insurance company would not believe you when you just say Uber/Lyft app was off.
> 
> But, I think that when insurance company knows that you drive for Uber/Lyft, they will use this excuse to not cover you in case of accident.


Another assumption. I have never seen or heard of any driver having to prove the app was off. Have you?

Think what you want, but repeating it as fact when it's probably never happened helps no one. Again, I doubt that would even be legal in most states if at all.


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## tb1984 (Jul 24, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Another assumption. I have never seen or heard of any driver having to prove the app was off. Have you?
> 
> Think what you want, but repeating it as fact when it's probably never happened helps no one. Again, I doubt that would even be legal in most states if at all.


Ok, so you involve in a at-fault accident, and you tell your personal insurance company that you drive for Uber/Lyft, but at the time of accident you had the Uber/Lyft app off. Do you think your insurance company would believe you when turning on/off Uber app just by a tap of finger?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

tb1984 said:


> Ok, so you involve in a at-fault accident, and you tell your personal insurance company that you drive for Uber/Lyft, but at the time of accident you had the Uber/Lyft app off. Do you think your insurance company would believe you when turning on/off Uber app just by a tap of finger?


Yep. You may have to sign an affidavit swearing it was off. If they didn't believe you, they could probably file suit and subpoena Uber's records OR Uber may just choose to cooperate.

It's not about what I _think_. I don't spread rumors based on what I _think_. What I know is I've never once heard of any of this happening so it's probably completely fabricated fear mongering. But if you know of it ever happening, I'm all ears.


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## tb1984 (Jul 24, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Yep. You may have to sign an affidavit swearing it was off. *If they didn't believe you, they could probably file suit and subpoena Uber's records OR Uber may just choose to cooperate*.


Ok, there you go, you have something to prove that you had app off, but the trouble that you have to go through.



RamzFanz said:


> It's not about what I _think_. I don't spread rumors based on what I _think_. What I know is I've never once heard of any of this happening so it's probably completely fabricated fear mongering. But if you know of it ever happening, I'm all ears.


Please check through this entire forum and post the thread about a driver involves in an at-fault accident when the app is off. You've never seen/heard it here, but it does not mean that it never happens. And, this forum only has a small percentage of drivers.

I urge all drivers to get rideshare insurance if they can in their states. Why do I need to fabricate to fear drivers? It's all about common sense. You can go through my post history, and please show 10 posts that my intention is to scare drivers off the road.

Again, I urge drivers to get rideshare insurance, because if you involve in an at-fault accident when the app is off, it's difficult to get insurance company to cover.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

tb1984 said:


> Ok, there you go, you have something to prove that you had app off, but the trouble that you have to go through.
> 
> Please check through this entire forum and post the thread about a driver involves in an at-fault accident when the app is off. You've never seen/heard it here, but it does not mean that it never happens. And, this forum only has a small percentage of drivers.
> 
> ...


I urge them to get TNC insurance also, I just don't make up things that have never happened. I never said the driver has to prove anything, you did, and again, completely unsupported. I said the insurance company could ask Uber or, perhaps, subpoena the information.

I've read hundreds of insurance and accident posts here and elsewhere. Not one where anything you are alleging happened and you haven't seen one either it seems. Anyone can make up things to scare other drivers, try supporting them.


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## tb1984 (Jul 24, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> I urge them to get TNC insurance also, *I just don't make up things that have never happened*. I never said the driver has to prove anything, you did, and again, completely unsupported. I said the insurance company could ask Uber or, perhaps, subpoena the information.


It's never posted here, so how do you know it's never happened. So, you think this forum represents all of Uber/Lyft drivers in the country? So, since Uber started in 2009, there are drivers all over the country, and there is not one single accident that involves Uber driver with app off, and the Uber driver is at fault?

Since you attack me, so I think you are naive to think insurance companies are stupid and flat out believe that you had the app off(again, turning on/off app only requires a tap of finger). Do you know that you're not supposed to use your car for commercial use? The second that you tell insurance company that you drive for Uber, they will deny your claim. And you have to go through troubles to prove that the app is off. Insurance companies would never ask Uber for information, you have to do it.



RamzFanz said:


> *I've read hundreds of insurance and accident posts here and elsewhere*. Not one where anything you are alleging happened and you haven't seen one either it seems. Anyone can make up things to scare other drivers, try supporting them.


I also have, but all of them is not at-fault accident. But, again this forum only has small percentage of drivers. Have you checked my post history? I'm the one that goes against people scaring off drivers with their under minimum wage, Uber scam tactics.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> I'm still negotiating with the insurance company. They are slowly raising their offer but still not close to what I'm requesting. I think I'll be able to fight for what I deserve without getting a lawyer involved.


Keep us posted. I am curious what the success rate is for Uber drivers claiming "lost wages". You aren't employees, you don't get a wage. There is an inherent risk with respect to driving for hire. As a TNC driver, you aren't bonded with anyone, you aren't signed up by contract for a month's worth of work. Some drivers in accidents may be bound to TNC driving for the simple reason that is why they own the particular car in the first place. Hard to prove what that means.

Just because a driver worked X amount of hours the previous month, doesn't mean all that much. It is no guarantee a driver would repeat those hours or earnings the following month.

I will have to ask at the taxi company I lease from if they have ever tried to recover earnings lost while a damaged car was being repaired or replaced. We have our own mechanics, the car gets pounded back in shape and put back on the road if it is going back on the road.

The calls for TNC appropriate insurance are well called for. Spread the word. In terms of insurance issues, it has always been the drivers who are the most exposed on this issue. They are clearly the people with their Azzes on the line. If the OP is able to collect lost earnings, more power to him or any driver able to pull that one off. I would assume the insurance industry will tighten up on those claims over time. At some point they are going to tell drivers to go pound sand or get legit, purchase the proper insurance, acquire licensing, log your hours...... The OP should do what feels right, but such claims should they become more common will wake up insurance companies.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

tb1984 said:


> It's never posted here, so how do you know it's never happened. So, you think this forum represents all of Uber/Lyft drivers in the country? So, since Uber started in 2009, there are drivers all over the country, and there is not one single accident that involves Uber driver with app off, and the Uber driver is at fault?
> 
> Since you attack me, so I think you are naive to think insurance companies are stupid and flat out believe that you had the app off(again, turning on/off app only requires a tap of finger). Do you know that you're not supposed to use your car for commercial use? The second that you tell insurance company that you drive for Uber, they will deny your claim. And you have to go through troubles to prove that the app is off. Insurance companies would never ask Uber for information, you have to do it.
> 
> I also have, but all of them is not at-fault accident. But, again this forum only has small percentage of drivers. Have you checked my post history? I'm the one that goes against people scaring off drivers with their under minimum wage, Uber scam tactics.


I'll wait for you to show me a *single time* in the 7 year history of Uber drivers, with millions of drivers, where an insurance company denied an app off claim based solely on Ubering or made a driver prove app off. You made things up and you can't support them. Until you do, all you are claiming are unicorn sightings.


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## tb1984 (Jul 24, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> I'll wait for you to show me a *single time* in the 7 year history of Uber drivers, with millions of drivers, where an insurance company denied an app off claim based solely on Ubering or made a driver prove app off. You made things up and you can't support them. Until you do, all you are claiming are unicorn sightings.


Again, you are really naive to think insurance companies are stupid. And, you think this forum has all drivers in the country. How about this? Could you post a thread with driver in an at-fault accident with Uber on?

Also, how about you tell your insurance company that you drive for Uber? Then, please let me know what they say.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

tb1984 said:


> Again, you are really naive to think insurance companies are stupid. And, you think this forum has all drivers in the country. How about this? Could you post a thread with driver in an at-fault accident with Uber on?
> 
> Also, how about you tell your insurance company that you drive for Uber? Then, please let me know what they say.


Unicorns and bigfoot sightings.

It seems you just respond without reading my posts. I go to many sites and read many news reports. I've read hundreds and I've asked numerous questions.

Of course I can post a thread with Uber on at fault. There's dozens of them I'm aware of. As soon as you support your claims, I will post one. Or, when you realise there are no posts you can reference, you can just read the accident threads here for yourself.

I did let my insurance know. We had several discussions about it. There are dozens of posts by me about it on this site. They have no issue with me driving part time and say I'm covered app off and period 1.

I see you been soaking up all the taxi driver misinformation around here like gravy with a biscuit. Try looking into it yourself.

Also, try thinking for yourself. I am paying for FULL time personal insurance and they are covering me PART time. Who benefits?


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

I am not going to post the link, but you can look them up yourself, the firm is based in Boston should you search for them, this is from their Website:

*"Uber Car Accident Attorneys at Altman & Altman, LLP*

Accidents involving Uber cars are unique because although the driver is an "independent contractor," injured passengers, other drivers, and pedestrians may be entitled to compensation from the driver and the company. Most motor vehicle accidents are the result of another person or entity's negligence. Our team of car accident lawyers has been successfully representing persons injured in motor vehicle accidents for decades, and began handling Uber cases since the company expanded to Boston. Our dedicated attorneys will go up against Uber and fight for you and your loved ones. We are determined to secure the best settlement or verdict possible."

That is obviously more a liability issue. The general assumption has always been that Uber drivers are best protected by Uber and James River in terms of liability issues and concerns. These attorneys seem to believe drivers are still vulnerable in some instances. Who knows what the success rate is.

As for coverage of damage to a driver's own car. RamzFanz, here is a story I found by way of a quick search. Supposedly the Uber driver in mention was dropped by his personal insurance company and failed to convince James River to cover his damages. In this case the driver was struck by an uninsured driver. The Uber driver was not at fault in this case, but it is clearly an example of real concerns turning into reality...... Assuming the story is real (This is the internet).


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

"In many jurisdictions the mere non-disclosure of a material fact can render a policy null and void. In even more jurisdictions there are viable exclusions for vehicle use as a livery or conveyance. In the above scenario, the Uber policyholder may have their entire claim denied, leaving them personally liable for damages they caused."

" *Uh oh&#8230;Uber has some coverage issues":*
http://www.propertycasualty360.com/2015/02/09/uh-ohuber-has-some-coverage-issues?slreturn=1465961851


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## 5 Star Guy (Nov 7, 2015)

Geez, you don't need to prove the app was off. As soon as you mention you drive, your claim is denied. You are screwed as no one has this listed on their personal insurance, anymore. As soon as you renew they have added driving is not covered. It looks like Geico is taking the lead from the worst to the first in TNC Gap insurance, aka rideshare insurance. You never mention driving to your insurance or you're likely flagged and probably dropped. If you lie you are blacklisted to state coverage, which is ten times more expensive. Yes, go file a claim as long as they don't have any idea you drive. Next time you file a claim, accident or glass you will probably be asked. They are weeding out drivers. Get the extra insurance, be very careful driving so it's never your fault or stop driving until this new policy is in your state.


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## 5 Star Guy (Nov 7, 2015)

Forgot to add you can never use a rental for this, a business where you make money using your car. Getting a car for your business is what most people do. You would be filing for bankruptcy if you do at that point.


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## Suzdog (Nov 26, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> This is from the e-mail I got from the adjustor-
> "As for your wage loss claim, we have provided you with a rental vehicle which Uber and Lyft have both claimed that they will not allow you to use to continue earning. We have put this under extensive consideration and find that both Uber and Lyft are primarily the ones limiting your income making them partially responsible especially if you have commercial insurance through them. Please also keep in mind you are entitled to your losses, simply because your own personal vehicle was not available for use as an Uber/Lyft vehicle does not mean that a loss was suffered."
> 
> Seems like BS.


Well, no, they have a point. Simply stated they are saying they provided you with a car which you can drive. Since Uber and Lyft won't let you use it to do rideshare that makes them the responsible party more then the insurance company. Makes sense logically but no surprise Uber and Lyft don't care. They should be addressing the fact that they don't have a way for you to use a rental car during this time period your vehicle is down. Slave labor at it's finest.


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

Suzdog said:


> Well, no, they have a point. Simply stated they are saying they provided you with a car which you can drive. Since Uber and Lyft won't let you use it to do rideshare that makes them the responsible party more then the insurance company. Makes sense logically but no surprise Uber and Lyft don't care. They should be addressing the fact that they don't have a way for you to use a rental car during this time period your vehicle is down. Slave labor at it's finest.


It's unfortunate that Lyft and Uber won't let approved drivers use rentals.

However, from what I've found online, this has not prevented insurance companies in the past from providing full coverage for wage loss. Right now I'm looking for documentation of this happening that I can forward to the insurance company. *If anybody reading this has successfully claimed wage loss for Uber or Lyft please send me a message.*


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## tb1984 (Jul 24, 2015)

5 Star Guy said:


> Geez, you don't need to prove the app was off. As soon as you mention you drive, your claim is denied. You are screwed as no one has this listed on their personal insurance, anymore. As soon as you renew they have added driving is not covered. It looks like Geico is taking the lead from the worst to the first in TNC Gap insurance, aka rideshare insurance. You never mention driving to your insurance or you're likely flagged and probably dropped. If you lie you are blacklisted to state coverage, which is ten times more expensive. Yes, go file a claim as long as they don't have any idea you drive. Next time you file a claim, accident or glass you will probably be asked. They are weeding out drivers. Get the extra insurance, be very careful driving so it's never your fault or stop driving until this new policy is in your state.


Thank you. It seems like you are in insurance industry. I'm trying to warn drivers, but RamzFanz thinks that I make up stuff... No, I don't need to, it's all common sense, insurance companies are not stupid. Insurance companies are in business of taking people money, not giving out money freely.


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## 5 Star Guy (Nov 7, 2015)

tb1984 said:


> Thank you. It seems like you are in insurance industry. I'm trying to warn drivers, but RamzFanz thinks that I make up stuff... No, I don't need to, it's all common sense, insurance companies are not stupid. Insurance companies are in business of taking people money, not giving out money freely.


He is clueless, the only guy on here who wants drivers to believe you are covered, when you are not unless you have TNC Gap insurance. It isn't an option, you are screwed if you do not have it. I'm not in the industry but have studied it enough and you can read all of my posts on it. I used to be attacked for suggesting it, now people have caught on, everyone except him seems to get it now, while he continues to attack.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> It's unfortunate that Lyft and Uber won't let approved drivers use rentals.
> 
> However, from what I've found online, this has not prevented insurance companies in the past from providing full coverage for wage loss. Right now I'm looking for documentation of this happening that I can forward to the insurance company. *If anybody reading this has successfully claimed wage loss for Uber or Lyft please send me a message.*


As far as rentals go, I would assume most rental companies themselves wouldn't allow you to use their rental cars for hire. Uber may not allow it for reasons given them by James River.

"from what I've found online, this has not prevented insurance companies in the past from providing full coverage for wage loss. "

You must remember, you are not receiving a wage. There is no full coverage for wage loss, this insurance company understands you have no wage to lose. You have personal insurance on the vehicle, it is your personal car, you are not registered as an Uber driver, you have no tax number........

If the insurance company is providing you with a rental car until yours is fixed, you should be pleased. It is naive to assume this insurance company owes you for "lost wages". Uber drivers, despite RamzFanz insistence, are really taking big risks with their cars in terms of insurance, most of them anyway. You are finding that out in about as pleasant a way as could be had: Your car is getting fixed and you have a rental. What you can or can't do with Uber in the near future is not their concern nor should it be.

You should spend some time learning what it means to be an independent contractor. A wage is a fixed regular payment, you don't receive that...... You drive a personal car, that you found a way to capitalize on it, don't expect insurance companies to respect that going forward. Many Uber drivers use expensive cars, should James River pay out on a driver's loss, they only pay up to $25,000 in damages after the first grand of damage.

Rather than fight a non battle, do some research and share what you learn with those thinking of driving for a TNC too. TNC drivers expect the most casual of terms, they want little or no commitment, why on earth would insurance companies reward that with lost earnings? You could never prove it.


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## claimbuster (Mar 25, 2016)

Why won't they give you an acceptable vehicle? Would seem to me that would be the best option for everyone. You can keep working, they come out pretty good.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

claimbuster said:


> Why won't they give you an acceptable vehicle? Would seem to me that would be the best option for everyone. You can keep working, they come out pretty good.


It's the fact that it is a rental car. Rental cars are a no no. That said, I thought Uber did in fact have a pilot program running with one of the big rental car companies. This would have been in the last year, I don't remember which company, I never bothered to look and see what cities it was offered in. I haven't heard anything about the program in quite awhile.

Most rental companies wouldn't allow their cars to be used for hire, their insurance would not permit that. James River may require the driver's name be on the title. The problem isn't with the make or model.


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## 5 Star Guy (Nov 7, 2015)

Travass has several pilot programs going on including contracts to use rental vehicles when you don't own a car. Loss of wages is any income, you do need to prove it though. I made a million selling lemonade last summer in front of my house. No, I don't have receipts, it was cash of course. You need to show you normally worked Friday nights for four hours or something. Then they would need to know how many Friday's you couldn't work, well not Friday's, only Friday's at that time.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

5 Star Guy said:


> Loss of wages is any income, you do need to prove it though.


Easier said than done when your work is so casual and part time and under the radar. The claim that the OP's issue is more a matter between OP and Uber is a reasonable argument to be made. That argument could fall short, but at this point in time, it seems completely inline with all the other current concerns and court cases.


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## 5 Star Guy (Nov 7, 2015)

Huberis said:


> Easier said than done when your work is so casual and part time and under the radar. The claim that the OP's issue is more a matter between OP and Uber is a reasonable argument to be made. That argument could fall short, but at this point in time, it seems completely inline with all the other current concerns and court cases.


You are an independent contractor, same as web design, book keeper or other work people do, now referred to as the gig economy. Like any other claim, you need to prove it in order to to be reimbursed. It will be tough to prove if you are just starting out or you don't drive often or your schedule varies a lot. The most likely claim to win would be driving a long time on a regular schedule, often. If anything they would probably owe less since you can show the days and time you normally work, which is probably less than other part-time work. If you are doing this almost full time, you are probably losing money in the long run anyway.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

5 Star Guy said:


> You are an independent contractor, same as web design, book keeper or other work people do, now referred to as the gig economy. Like any other claim, you need to prove it in order to to be reimbursed. It will be tough to prove if you are just starting out or you don't drive often or your schedule varies a lot. The most likely claim to win would be driving a long time on a regular schedule, often. If anything they would probably owe less since you can show the days and time you normally work, which is probably less than other part-time work. If you are doing this almost full time, you are probably losing money in the long run anyway.


Couldn't agree more, good analysis. The average Uber driver is lucky to last one year and only drives six or seven hours a week. If you are doing it very full time in a mature market......... the model just doesn't work.


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

Huberis said:


> Easier said than done when your work is so casual and part time and under the radar. The claim that the OP's issue is more a matter between OP and Uber is a reasonable argument to be made. That argument could fall short, but at this point in time, it seems completely inline with all the other current concerns and court cases.


I was able to forward 4 weeks worth of pay stubs. I averaged the amount of weekly earnings from those 4 weeks to create a number that I would have reasonably expected to make (around $500).

At this point I'm trying to find a way to find documentation of other driver's receiving full compensation for lost wages. Without that, I'll probably get about 50-60% of what I'm requesting for lost wages. Not terrible, but obviously I'm hoping for full reimbursement.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> I was able to forward 4 weeks worth of pay stubs. I averaged the amount of weekly earnings from those 4 weeks to create a number that I would have reasonably expected to make (around $500).
> 
> At this point I'm trying to find a way to find documentation of other driver's receiving full compensation for lost wages. Without that, I'll probably get about 50-60% of what I'm requesting for lost wages. Not terrible, but obviously I'm hoping for full reimbursement.


Keep us updated. It is an interesting situation. Thanks for sharing your story.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> I am not going to post the link, but you can look them up yourself, the firm is based in Boston should you search for them, this is from their Website:
> 
> *"Uber Car Accident Attorneys at Altman & Altman, LLP*
> 
> ...


You forgot your link.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> You forgot your link.


Look at my first sentence you quoted. I didn't provide a link for the reason that I don't want to provide free advertising for the law firm.

It should be very easy to find, Google search the name of the law service provided along with say "Uber accident" you should find it.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

tb1984 said:


> I'm not sure about Progressive in your area, but you should not let your personal insurance company know that you uber. They will either cancel your policy or free-roll you when you involve in an accident like this.


Great advice. Everyone should commit fraud. Actually, probably most Uber drivers already are driving with a fraudulent personal policy. The proof is the 100's of posts like yours suggestion the driver shouldn't be honest with their carrier.

Yup. Great advice. Lie to your insurance company. It's the Uber way of doing business. ;-)


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## tb1984 (Jul 24, 2015)

phillipzx3 said:


> Great advice. Everyone should commit fraud. Actually, probably most Uber drivers already are driving with a fraudulent personal policy. The proof is the 100's of posts like yours suggestion the driver shouldn't be honest with their carrier.
> 
> Yup. Great advice. *Lie to your insurance company*. It's the Uber way of doing business. ;-)


If they ask, I'll tell them.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

tb1984 said:


> If they ask, I'll tell them.


Is there language in your policy, fine print or otherwise which states your policy is not for cars used for commercial purposes? The other thing to look for is a statement requiring the policy holder to inform the provider of any changes in the use of the car. It is likely both are there.

It is the drivers who are taking all the risk in such cases. I personally believe that this particular reluctance to be transparent with insurance providers is also a reflection of the particular condition which allows Uber itself to exploit drivers. It exemplifies why Uber drivers have zero personal agency. It absolutely contributes to Uber's ability and willingness to both flood a market with cars and set the price at whatever they please. They can do this, because so many drivers still, after all this time seem intent to hide what they are doing. There are countless drivers, but it is as if you don't exist.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

tb1984 said:


> If they ask, I'll tell them.


Here is a statement taken from my auto policy, and I strongly suspect similar wording is used by all insurers. (Emphasis mine.)
"This entire policy shall be void from its inception if any person insured has *misrepresented or omitted any fact or circumstance* which was material to our issuance or renewal of this policy."
This is in addition to clear statements elsewhere, such as in sections dealing with what is not covered and exclusions, indicating that driving for hire for any type of compensation is specifically excluded from coverage.
I take from this that if I adopt a policy of "if they ask, I'll tell them," then I'm asking instead for them to deny coverage and cancel my policy.
Your policy may vary, but I'll wager not by much.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

Older Chauffeur said:


> Here is a statement taken from my auto policy, and I strongly suspect similar wording is used by all insurers. (Emphasis mine.)
> "This entire policy shall be void from its inception if any person insured has *misrepresented or omitted any fact or circumstance* which was material to our issuance or renewal of this policy."
> This is in addition to clear statements elsewhere, such as in sections dealing with what is not covered and exclusions, indicating that driving for hire for any type of compensation is specifically excluded from coverage.
> I take from this that if I adopt a policy of "if they ask, I'll tell them," then I'm asking instead for them to deny coverage and cancel my policy.
> Your policy may vary, but I'll wager not by much.


Due you believe such a collective willingness to play dumb and work under the radar helps, hinders or plays no role in the relationship between Uber and its drivers? My belief is it is a fairly obvious example of Uber drivers failing to act like true independent contractors. It shows a lack of agency on the part of drivers a refusal to operate in a legit way. A refusal to be responsible.

What is your impression concerning the bigger picture of driver woes, helps, hinders or neutral?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> Look at my first sentence you quoted. I didn't provide a link for the reason that I don't want to provide free advertising for the law firm.
> 
> It should be very easy to find, Google search the name of the law service provided along with say "Uber accident" you should find it.


I don't care what attorneys say, you said _here is an accident_. Do you have a driver name or anything? Link perhaps?


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Huberis said:


> Due you believe such a collective willingness to play dumb and work under the radar helps, hinders or plays no role in the relationship between Uber and its drivers? My belief is it is a fairly obvious example of Uber drivers failing to act like true independent contractors. It shows a lack of agency on the part of drivers a refusal to operate in a legit way. A refusal to be responsible.
> 
> What is your impression concerning the bigger picture of driver woes, helps, hinders or neutral?


It's like the old story about the ostrich with its head in the sand- a refusal to look at the downside(s) to being an independent contractor with an outfit like Uber. I think some folks see just the opportunity for some cash flow, and don't look down the road at the possibility of financial losses due to liability for an accident or wearing out their cars rather quickly compared to normal personal use. Uber doesn't help by not being clear and upfront about these issues, instead taking advantage of some people. Obviously, there are individuals who make it work for themselves, but overall I think they are in the minority.
Having driven as an IC since 2002, I was interested when I heard Uber was coming to my area. But one of the first things I did was read my policy to confirm what I already knew, that commercial/for hire use was not covered. Then the thought of racking up miles and wear and tear caused by strangers in my car convinced me that it wasn't going to be a good fit for me. In addition to my private clients, I do work for one agency as an IC, but with none of the issues raised here, because we drive client-owned vehicles. Driving to work in our own cars is the same for us as anyone with a regular job.
When I read here about people lying to their insurers and cheating on their taxes, playing the odds that they won't get caught, all I can do is shake my head at the lack of personal responsibility, as you say.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> I don't care what attorneys say, you said _here is an accident_. Do you have a driver name or anything? Link perhaps?


I see what you refer to, the link is missing. I will try to find it tomorrow. Maybe it was removed for reasons of being an outside blog.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Do you have a driver name or anything? Link perhaps?


Here it is:
http://gas2.org/2015/08/04/how-does-ubers-driver-insurance-work-exactly/


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Lol wages


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> Here it is:
> http://gas2.org/2015/08/04/how-does-ubers-driver-insurance-work-exactly/


I don't understand the point. the driver is clearly either mistaken or not telling the truth.

He says he had passengers which means he has uninsured motorist coverage. I can only assume he did not have collision on his insurance which makes the whole thing make sense. If you don't have collision off Uber, you don't have it on, there are no exceptions.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> I don't understand the point. the driver is clearly either mistaken or not telling the truth.
> 
> He says he had passengers which means he has uninsured motorist coverage. I can only assume he did not have collision on his insurance which makes the whole thing make sense. If you don't have collision off Uber, you don't have it on, there are no exceptions.


When you say you don't understand, you mean you don't want to believe it.

I just reread it, I didn't see where it said he had pax onboard. It implied he was driving for Uber at the time of the accident, which I assume to mean he was logged onto the app, to the degree that his personal insurance was unwilling to provide coverage for his uninsured motorists policy.

The driver for one does mention he was dropped by his insurance provider. He mentions being told by Uber they do not offer insurance for uninsured drivers.

My assumption is this accident happened during what is referred to as phase two. Just a guess. The bottom line is here is an example of a driver being dropped and then not coverd something you suggest is mere fantasy.

Rather than suggesting you don't understand the point........ if you don't believe it, just contact the author and ask for clarification.

I see here that he later points out he had a pax, phase three. - My failure, I'm doing two things at once, neither well.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz I think you need to contact the author and do a follow up for all of us here.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> When you say you don't understand, you mean you don't want to believe it.
> 
> I just reread it, I didn't see where it said he had pax onboard. It implied he was driving for Uber at the time of the accident, which I assume to mean he was logged onto the app, to the degree that his personal insurance was unwilling to provide coverage for his uninsured motorists policy.
> 
> ...


What? You need to re-re-read it. He said he drove his pax to the hospital.

"_no one provided any medical evaluation or treatment for me or any of my passengers."
_
Which brings up another point. Do you really believe paramedics didn't provide any evaluation or treatment? That doesn't scream red flag to you?

When I say I don't understand, I mean I don't understand your point. What is your point? That an insurance carrier will drop a driver? I never said they wouldn't. I believe he was dropped. I also believe it was probably Geico since most carriers, and in fact, none other than Geico will drop you, _from the accounts I've read,_ they just won't cover you. If you have accounts of other carriers dropping drivers, I'm all ears.

Mine _knows_ I Uber because, as you know, _I told them. _I had an off app accident a few weeks ago that was 100% my fault. They didn't even ask if I was Ubering, they just paid. No change in rates, no questions, nothing. So no, not all insurances will drop you, in fact, _from what I've read _in dozens and dozens of insurance and accident threads, only Geico does.

He does mention that he was told they mirror his policy which _only_ applies on collision, thus my conclusion is that he probably had no collision. Is that not logical to you? I mean, it's not mentioned, but it makes sense, yes? He doesn't say his pax weren't covered for injury and he was being sued did he? He _only_ says his car wasn't covered which, since he says he did have pax, by default, means he had no collision on his personal policy, yes?

All of this is in writing and on the certificate. It's not a choice of either Uber or James Rivers. I know this will shock people, but A rated insurance companies don't just go around committing fraud. A lawyer would eat them both alive in a class action suit.

If you read the whole article you will also note that the author points out inconsistencies in the driver's story and that the driver doesn't seem to understand insurance.

TLDR: Driver had pax, the author doesn't completely believe the driver, the driver's story is consistent with the advertised James Rivers insurance and certificate, and Geico will drop you _as might others_, but I've never seen it outside of Geico and mine didn't, they just recently covered me.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> RamzFanz I think you need to contact the author and do a follow up for all of us here.


I will.

Edit: Done.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> I will.


i am not going to loose any sleep over this piece, it is poorly written and formatted.

Some of the inconsistency suggested by the author is more of an attempt to hint at irony.

As for an error of omission, suggesting that the driver failed to disclose a lack of collision coverage on his policy. That would be a possible explanation. Hard to imagine such a glaring omission could happen.

This is the internet. I take blog posts as very anecdotal. You have to wonder not only if the driver is honest, is the author?

I'm sure you will get to the bottom of this. Enjoy


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> i am not going to loose any sleep over this piece, it is poorly written and formatted.
> 
> Some of the inconsistency suggested by the author is more of an attempt to hint at irony.
> 
> ...


So you agree that him not having collision is the only logical answer, that probably only Geico drops you, and that there are no posts saying Uber's insurance didn't pay when they should have?


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> So you agree that him not having collision is the only logical answer, that probably only Geico drops you, and that there are no posts saying Uber's insurance didn't pay when they should have?


No I don't agree. It is the easiest assumption to make. It is too glaring an omission thAt I wouldn't make that assumption.

Here is another possibility: James River, is known to contact a driver's insurance company should they be required to cover any kind of claim.

I assume it is possible that by the time James River was needed, he had already been dropped by his provider at which point, there was nothing to mirror. That is purely a guess.

All we can do is guess. Do your homework for real. Contact the author or I vote him to this thread. Your logic, though a possibility proves nothing.


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## ninja2436 (Jun 10, 2016)

UPDATE- I have my car back and am still negotiating the lost earnings claim with the insurance company. Contrary to what one guy here said, the insurance company will not just wash their hands of you once your car is fixed.

The truth is that there is a lot of gray area in cases like these. Contrary to what some have claimed, the insurance company will not just smile and write you a check for all the money you would have normally made, nor will they outright refuse to give you some compensation. I tried to reach out to some posters who claimed they had been rewarded lost earnings, but they were unwilling to help me by providing me any documentation from the settlement. This was pretty disappointing; despite everything, I do think Uber is a cool way to make some cash and I think drivers should band together and help each other out so that when this kind of thing happens, it's easy for the driver to reach the maximum fair settlement.

I'm beginning to consider taking the owner of the trucking company to small claims court for the remainder of my lost wages, especially because he initially gave me the wrong insurance information. It wasn't until a week and a half after the accident that the correct insurance company was handling the claim (not sure why he is insured by two different companies at the same time.)


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> UPDATE- I have my car back and am still negotiating the lost earnings claim with the insurance company. Contrary to what one guy here said, the insurance company will not just wash their hands of you once your car is fixed.
> 
> The truth is that there is a lot of gray area in cases like these. Contrary to what some have claimed, the insurance company will not just smile and write you a check for all the money you would have normally made, nor will they outright refuse to give you some compensation. I tried to reach out to some posters who claimed they had been rewarded lost earnings, but they were unwilling to help me by providing me any documentation from the settlement. This was pretty disappointing; despite everything, I do think Uber is a cool way to make some cash and I think drivers should band together and help each other out so that when this kind of thing happens, it's easy for the driver to reach the maximum fair settlement.
> 
> I'm beginning to consider taking the owner of the trucking company to small claims court for the remainder of my lost wages, especially because he initially gave me the wrong insurance information. It wasn't until a week and a half after the accident that the correct insurance company was handling the claim (not sure why he is insured by two different companies at the same time.)


Thanks for the update.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

There may have been a legitimate reason for the owner providing the wrong insurance company info. Not making excuses for him, but he might have different insurers for general liability, cargo damage, vehicle liability, etc. He may not be actively involved in securing coverage, or uses a broker. Or it could be as simple as a recent change of insurers for his business.
I think most insurers would not agree to insure a vehicle already covered by another company, as they don't want the insured to collect more than the vehicle is worth in the event of a total loss. In some states that might be considered insurance fraud.
Anyway, glad you are making progress, and small claims court would seem to be a viable way for you to collect. It might get him to put pressure on his insurer to settle with you instead. A lawyer could accomplish the same thing, as long as he/she would get enough extra to cover his/her fee and expenses.
Good luck!


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## 5 Star Guy (Nov 7, 2015)

Right, once you go to court their insurance represents him, again. They might escalate it though. There isn't any difference since it goes to mediation and your evidence or lack of won't change the outcome. You should check what the cut-off amount is when the damage you're seeking exceeds what is allowed in small claims court in your state. If you were driving full time or something and the wages were high or you couldn't drive your car for two months like what happened to me, you could be screwed.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

ninja2436 said:


> UPDATE- the correct insurance company was handling the claim (not sure why he is insured by two different companies at the same time.)


My company is insured by two different insurers. Our vehicles are insured through Wilshire and the business is insured through Zurich North America. It's very easy for some receptionist to give you the wrong info. You always claim from vehicle insurance 1st then if need more (only very rare cases) the business insurance kicks in.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

5 Star Guy said:


> Right, once you go to court their insurance represents him, again.


The other guy's insurance company will represent him in small claims court? I will take your word for it, but something doesn't sound right. At that point, the one driver is directly taking on the other. I wouldn't think an insurance company would be involved in a small claims court. Maybe they do, but in such a case one individual is going after another individual. That seems like an expensive proposition for someone's insurance company and should the person loose, the money isn't coming out of the pocket of the insurance company anyway is it? Seems to me it would be the individual who would pay


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> So you agree that him not having collision is the only logical answer


Many seem more than willing to insist that plenty of Uber related stories end without satisfactory resolution and contrary to logical assumptions. I am more than willing to assume there are possibilities neither of us have considered. The story could be fabricated for that matter.

Have you tracked down the author Ramses? I want you to do some sleuthing.


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## 5 Star Guy (Nov 7, 2015)

Your insurance company represents you in court, same as the other driver's insurance. They wouldn't represent him if they weren't covering your claim, in this case they are. It's also most likely mediation where all parties agree to get a little screwed.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> No I don't agree. It is the easiest assumption to make. It is too glaring an omission thAt I wouldn't make that assumption.
> 
> Here is another possibility: James River, is known to contact a driver's insurance company should they be required to cover any kind of claim.
> 
> ...


Nonsense. JR doesn't automatically contact the driver's insurance, in fact, I don't know that they ever have. Do you?

Nothing to mirror? It's what you have AT THE TIME of the accident, not at some time in the future. Sounds good on paper if you're trying to deceive drivers though.

No, we don't need to guess, which is my point. There are HUNDREDS of accident and insurance threads you can read around the internet of ACTUAL reactions and none seem to support what you are saying. Your assumptions are hypotheticals.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> Many seem more than willing to insist that plenty of Uber related stories end without satisfactory resolution and contrary to logical assumptions. I am more than willing to assume there are possibilities neither of us have considered. The story could be fabricated for that matter.
> 
> Have you tracked down the author Ramses? I want you to do some sleuthing.


Not interested, I asked, he didn't answer. There are contract and insurance laws. Insurance companies are _legally _o_bligated_. It's not a choice. When someone shows that JR didn't live up to their obligations, even once, I will listen. So far, I have never seen it.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Nonsense. JR doesn't automatically contact the driver's insurance, in fact, I don't know that they ever have. Do you?
> 
> Nothing to mirror? It's what you have AT THE TIME of the accident, not at some time in the future. Sounds good on paper if you're trying to deceive drivers though.
> 
> No, we don't need to guess, which is my point. There are HUNDREDS of accident and insurance threads you can read around the internet of ACTUAL reactions and none seem to support what you are saying. Your assumptions are hypotheticals.


I don't put much faith in accounts posted on the Internet and that includes the link I posted myself.

That said, we are both making assumptions and assumptions they shall remain.

I have heard stories of Uber checking to verify their driver's policy before paying out.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

ng to mirror? It's what you have AT THE TIME of the accident, not at some time in the future.

If the incident and subsequent disclosure were to cause the provider to drop the driver on the spot. 

Such a situation suggests an opportunity for Uber not to provide coverage as well. 

The liability is contingent upon first making the claim with a personal insurance co. JR steps in upon the personal insurance co's failure to cover. That doesn't mean it's ok if they were dropped entirely. They are still expected to have valid insurance. If a person is actually dropped, all bets could be off. That could easily be a game changer. 

Insurance companies expect disclosure. Some drivers, without question are driving on invalidated insurance. Uber could easily have taken advantage of that and not covered a driver such as the one mentioned in the blog.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> I don't put much faith in accounts posted on the Internet and that includes the link I posted myself.
> 
> That said, we are both making assumptions and assumptions they shall remain.
> 
> I have heard stories of Uber checking to verify their driver's policy before paying out.


The truth is I will back up every word I say with actual events and you won't. You can't find people who claim JR checks your insurance. Very typical Union BS making a boogeyman where there is none. Fight against rates or insurance, not the ghosts.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> ng to mirror? It's what you have AT THE TIME of the accident, not at some time in the future.
> 
> If the incident and subsequent disclosure were to cause the provider to drop the driver on the spot.
> 
> ...


Dude, stop with your rabid union selling. You have ZERO evidence of anything you claim.

To all those who would read this:

Uber has insurance through James Rivers. Print up your certificate. It is LEGALLY BINDING and not up to Uber.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

ninja2436 said:


> I was recently in an accident. Police came to the scene and determined the other driver was at fault.
> 
> The other driver's insurance is covering the entire cost of repair to my car. However, I'm having to fight with them for my lost wages.
> 
> ...


If it was me I would "put them on notice". It's a phrase no insurance company wants to hear - telling them that means you are giving them the statutory notice period before you start legal action. I know from experience that it tends to light a fire under adjusters' asses. The last thing they want to do is explain to their boss why they could not settle a reasonable claim without getting sued.

The amount you are likely claiming would be spent by them on just a few hours' lawyers fees. Put them on notice, it will cost you only a postage stamp and is very likely to give results.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Dude, stop with your rabid union selling.


What are you referring to? Other than Seattle which has dropped off the radar, as indy contractors. Uber drivers have no right to collective bargaining. WIthout that ability, there is no hope for a real Union. I don't believe Uber driver strikes do an ounce of good, the weekend long attempts mean nothing.

- That said I have another one for you, If the link is taken down let me know and I will try something else, but here it is for now:
From Uber man titled: 
*"Uber - Driver's Car is Stolen in CA and Insurance!!!"*






UM should be willing to correspond with you. Within the comments section, he clarifies some errors from the original video, the car wasn't running, it was in sight, phase three driving.

Enjoy.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Fight against rates


The rate issues are a side effect of being classified as independent contractors while being completely denied of all personal agency other than the act of logging on or off and Uber surely tries to control that aspect too. The rate structure is a side effect of a toxic relationship.

Currently, the mantra to Uber is rates should be increased because it is fair and right, it would be a nice thing to do. Uber in the process of structuring their business managed to side step regulations, twist rules, distance themselves from the cost of obtaining and maintaining a massive fleet of cars.

All the complaints about rates being dangerously low are tied into the same concerns of have countless drivers on the road at anyone given moment beyond the market's need.

Everything that alows them to provide such great convenience to their pax is not only what enables them to lower rates and flood a market, it pretty much insists on those conditions. It should be obvious.

Until the relationship changes between Uber and driver, Uber and Uber drivers between regulators, the insurance industry, lending institutions and the like, nothing will ever get better.

The pax, buy into the notion that Uber drivers "get paid well". Most pax probably couldn't care less what an Uber driver makes an all they need is to so much as hear about a friend being charge some crazy surge rate to coax them into dismissing concerns over driver earnings.

Currently, tactics to improve conditions at Uber are left to half azzd pseudo strikes and attempts to shame Uber into doing the right thing. It isn't going to work.

Drivers are on their own and completely isolated by design. I do belief Uber and other TNC drivers, gig economy workers should get together and associate, but Unionizing is not realistic. Drivers would need to be allowed collective bargaining and then Uber would need to formally recognize the union as representative of the collective well being of Uber drivers. Such an effort would likely take decades if ever.

Ever notice how many people on UP assume there is a powerful union representing taxi drivers in the US. Go read up on the history of the effort to unionize the taxi industry. It is only a couple decades old, they don't have collective bargaining. They have zero effect. Taxi drivers are independent contractors too for the most part. To my knowledge, Williamsport PA is the only city in the state to have their drivers listed as employees. If there are others, I'd like to hear about it.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> What are you referring to? Other than Seattle which has dropped off the radar, as indy contractors. Uber drivers have no right to collective bargaining. WIthout that ability, there is no hope for a real Union. I don't believe Uber driver strikes do an ounce of good, the weekend long attempts mean nothing.
> 
> - That said I have another one for you, If the link is taken down let me know and I will try something else, but here it is for now:
> From Uber man titled:
> ...


We'll see how that plays out. If the driver left his keys in the car, that may be an issue. It depends on what his PIP says on the matter. Many exclude theft if keys are in the car.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> We'll see how that plays out. If the driver left his keys in the car, that may be an issue. It depends on what his PIP says on the matter. Many exclude theft if keys are in the car.


We shall see. If he were to be refused by his pip, since it was during phase three, JR should be expected to step up to the plate.

One would think theft is theft. Many at fault accidents are due to driver error and could said to be avoidable, this comes off as really dumb, but not much different.

Such a person might expect to have their rates raised.

Write Uberman for an update and an explanation as to the run around the guy is said to have gotten.

Is he still a member here?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> If he were to be refused by his pip, since it was during phase three, JR should be expected to step up to the plate.


He shouldn't even need to contact his PIP except perhaps for a copy of his policy if JR requires it in these unusual circumstances. My point is, if JR mirrors your PIP policy on collision, auto-theft with the keys in may not be covered. From what I've read, it seems it's kind of a judgment call for most insurers as to how egregious the driver's actions were in not protecting his property even if it's a written exclusion of coverage, they may or may not cover.

Of course, this is all assuming he has collision coverage with theft which seems to be the detail left out in most of these stories about uber cars not being "covered" by JR. UberMan was incorrect in saying this should fall under JR _unless_ the driver has collision with theft. Kind of the key detail. I have yet to hear a single story where JR didn't cover _when_ the driver had collision. Have you?

I have contacted UberMan.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Huberis said:


> We shall see. If he were to be refused by his pip, since it was during phase three, JR should be expected to step up to the plate.
> 
> One would think theft is theft. Many at fault accidents are due to driver error and could said to be avoidable, this comes off as really dumb, but not much different.
> 
> ...


So, Uberman responded, the driver's car was covered by JR 100%.


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## Phatzman (Apr 23, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> "Mine _knows_ I Uber because, as you know, _I told them. _I had an off app accident a few weeks ago that was 100% my fault. They didn't even ask if I was Ubering, they just paid. No change in rates, no questions, nothing. So no, not all insurances will drop you, in fact, _from what I've read _in dozens and dozens of insurance and accident threads, only Geico does.


Who do you have for auto insurance? With no change in rates after 100% fault, I'm looking to switch!


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> He shouldn't even need to contact his PIP except perhaps for a copy of his policy if JR requires it in these unusual circumstances. My point is, if JR mirrors your PIP policy on collision, auto-theft with the keys in may not be covered. From what I've read, it seems it's kind of a judgment call for most insurers as to how egregious the driver's actions were in not protecting his property even if it's a written exclusion of coverage, they may or may not cover.
> 
> Of course, this is all assuming he has collision coverage with theft which seems to be the detail left out in most of these stories about uber cars not being "covered" by JR. UberMan was incorrect in saying this should fall under JR _unless_ the driver has collision with theft. Kind of the key detail. I have yet to hear a single story where JR didn't cover _when_ the driver had collision. Have you?
> 
> I have contacted UberMan.


You lose all credibility by referring to uberman


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Bart McCoy said:


> You lose all credibility by referring to uberman


I was asked to silly to find out how a story ended. You should read before posting.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Phatzman said:


> Who do you have for auto insurance? With no change in rates after 100% fault, I'm looking to switch!


State Farm. Their position is that part time commercial activities are allowed but that isn't specified in the policy.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> I was asked to silly to find out how a story ended. You should read before posting.


looks even worse to follow up on ANYTHING that man says, smh


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## ChortlingCrison (Mar 30, 2016)

Hmm does the story end, they lived uberly ever after?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Bart McCoy said:


> looks even worse to follow up on ANYTHING that man says, smh


It was about a story that he presented about insurance. It had nothing to do with him personally. If you don't want real facts, just keep gobbling up the nonsense.


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## truth7 (Dec 13, 2016)

Bart McCoy said:


> complete BS, and makes no sense
> GET A LAWYER
> don't accept no 25% or 35% , they should be paying AT MININUM the average you worked out. They should pay that average up until your car is back on the road,PERIOD
> 
> ...


None of the TLC insurances are proper. Even if you have full coverage your own insurance does not provide you with TLC rental car. this is a serious problem right there with the premiums we pay


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## shiftydrake (Dec 12, 2015)

What a way to ressurect a dead thread


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## yojimboguy (Mar 2, 2016)

Here's my advice, without having read through these many pages of comments.

Step one: Ask the adjuster if they can guarantee in writing that the rental car provider is ok with you using the car for Uber. Most aren't, and if that's the case, whether Uber will allow the car or not is irrelevant. 

If they provide that, walk into an Uber office with the written document and talk to them about using the car.

If they don't, then ask the adjuster if they will pay for a rental from Enterprise or one of the others that Uber works with. Essentially, get them to pay the cost of a car pre-approved by Uber.


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