# ‘Taxi Kingpin’ in massive debt thanks to Uber



## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

*'Taxi Kingpin' in massive debt thanks to Uber*

http://nypost.com/2015/03/16/taxi-kingpin-in-debt-thanks-to-uber/

The city's "Taxi Kingpin'' is having trouble hacking it as he battles mounds of debt - thanks to Uber.

Gene Freidman, who owns more than 900 city cab medallions, has been hit so hard by the car-hailing app that he can't meet his bills - and Citibank is now foreclosing on at least 90 of his medallions to recoup what he owes, court records and sources say.

"Gene Freidman's business model requires him to lease out hundreds of cars every day, and because he can't find drivers because of Uber, [it] means he's not making money," an industry source told The Post.

"All of these [medallion owners] borrow as much as they can against medallions, and they get cash-crunched when, all of a sudden, you get competition in the market."

The value of the medallions plunged from $1.05 million in June 2013 to $800,000 this past January as Uber has lured drivers away.

"People used to have a religious faith that yellow-cab-medallion prices would go up forever," a source said. "People's faith has been rocked. Uber plays a big part in that."

Citibank is now hauling Freidman to court March 24 to recoup the $31.5 million he owes in loans, court records show.

The business accounts that Freidman used to repay his loans had no funds - and even negative balances - as of early December, the papers say.

Freidman - who buys his medallions through companies with such names as Vodka, Bourbon and Bombshell - made partial payments but failed to pay off the debt in full, the documents say.

His spokesman, Ronn Torossian, said that Citibank's suit came only because Freidman was two days late on a payment and that the rest of his debt was wrongly accelerated.

Torossian even hailed Uber, saying it "has done great things for the entire taxi industry.''

Freidman's lawyer, Brett Berman, claims Citibank simply wants out of the taxi business.

"This story is about a bank choosing to bail when industries change and not about financial stability," he said.

A Citibank rep said the suit was "an absolute last resort" after other attempts to gain payment failed.

Freidman has faced legal action before. The state attorney general fined him $1.2 million in 2013 for overcharging cab drivers to lease his cabs.

But Freidman is still living large, with Page Six reporting that he threw a lavish bash this past July 4 in the South of France.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

@Hackenstein Care to comment?


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> @Hackenstein Care to comment?


His company is built on a house of cards.
I've read about this guy before.
Basically a crook.
I hope he loses all his medallions. 
There are individual owned medallions that have to be driven by the owner a certain amount of hours a year.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> @Hackenstein Care to comment?


Ok.

I've driven briefly for Freidman's garage and got a check in the mail from the mill+ fine he paid for ripping off drivers. A friend of mine currently drives at his garage.

I won't defend him as a person, he's not a nice guy and has a big mouth.

He got in an argument with Bloomberg over the Taxi of Tomorrow for which Bloomberg handed Nissan a ten year Billion dollar contract, which forces virtually everyone to buy the NV2000. It was fought in court but was ultimately recently approved.

There was a news item last year that they crossed paths at a basketball game, and Bloomberg said 'I'll ****ing ruin you.' He later said he doesn't remember saying it and/or was drunk.

Bloomberg definitely carried through on his promise.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> His company is built on a house of cards.
> I've read about this guy before.
> Basically a crook.
> There are individual owned medallions that have to be driven by the owner a certain amount of hours a year.


Those are the guys who should be protected. Not this kind of stooge. He owns 900 medallions. I hope the city gets them back, problem is the bank will sell them off and the cycles starts all over again.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Those are the guys who should be protected. Not this kind of stooge. He owns 900 medallions. I hope the city gets them back, problem is the bank will sell them off and the cycles starts all over again.


That's what Taxi brokers want, sell you a medallion, repossess it, and sell it again. 
Many years ago I went to a taxi broker to inquire about buying a medallion, he told me forget about it. Turns out it was bad advice.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

He's one of the ones responsible for driving the price up from $200,000 to over a Million.

Seems like the industry was better off when it was a percentage split between driver and garage, once it became a set lease rate the reliable cash flow I guess lets them borrow against it more and make more money. Don't really have a handle on how it all works to be honest, but you can see where the price exploded around 2002


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Hackenstein said:


> He's one of the ones responsible for driving the price up from $200,000 to over a Million.
> 
> Seems like the industry was better off when it was a percentage split between driver and garage, once it became a set lease rate the reliable cash flow I guess lets them borrow against it more and make more money. Don't really have a handle on how it all works to be honest, but you can see where the price exploded around 2002


The percentage split ended in about 1982, that's ancient history.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> The percentage split ended in about 1982, that's ancient history.


This is true. Something clearly happened with Freidman and the other major players though which wasn't possible when it was a split.

Maybe it's as simple as being able to park the lease income in bonds which were around 6% for a while. Maybe they were just the first ones with enough money to seriously exploit it. They clearly had a scheme if they were willing to pay a Mill+.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Hackenstein said:


> Ok.
> 
> I've driven briefly for Freidman's garage and got a check in the mail from the mill+ fine he paid for ripping off drivers. A friend of mine currently drives at his garage.
> 
> ...


I would never work for that fat ****, where are his cars on west 45 th Street?


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Hackenstein said:


> This is true. Something clearly happened with Freidman and the other major players though which wasn't possible when it was a split.
> 
> Maybe it's as simple as being able to park the lease income in bonds which were around 6% for a while. Maybe they were just the first ones with enough money to seriously exploit it. They clearly had a scheme if they were willing to pay a Mill+.


The TLC had to approve leasing I'm sure. I doubt if that guy had anything to do with leasing.


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> I would never work for that fat ****, where are his cars on west 45 th Street?


Woodside.



Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> The TLC had to approve leasing I'm sure. I doubt if that guy had anything to do with leasing.


Not saying he did.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Hackenstein said:


> Woodside.
> 
> Not saying he did.


Is the company called Liberty ?


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## Hackenstein (Dec 16, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> Is the company called Liberty ?


Woodside Management Inc. I think he may have several. An old card I have says he also owns 'Victory' taxi garage in Brooklyn, or did.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Hackenstein said:


> Woodside Management Inc. I think he may have several though. An old card I have says he also owns 'Victory' taxi garage in Brooklyn, or did.


Nope, thankfully I never drove any of his cars.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

He owns 900 medallions at 800K each and he can't pay off 30M? Somethings rotten in Denmark.

Hmmm Denmark is that where the big tulip valuation went belly up?
Oh I think that was Holland, close enough.

Tulips, medallions same thing, only valuable if people want them.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

observer said:


> He owns 900 medallions at 800K each and he can't pay off 30M? Somethings rotten in Denmark.
> 
> Hmmm Denmark is that where the big tulip valuation went belly up?
> Oh I think that was Holland, close enough.
> ...


Probably over leveraged.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

I don't know how organized this will be or how much will make sense since I'm not in front of my computer and just typing up on my phone pretty quickly but I'll organize it a bit better tonight.

So from what I know about Freidman...

His father owned about 60 medallions and then he took over his fathers business and exploded it to this level.. All in all he's a Russian schemer. Not to talk down about Russians because I grew up around Russians.. But you get my point.

Him and a few other guys are pretty crooked... Him and his buddy Symon Garber pull off quite the questionable moves such as when it was found out that Garber was using salvaged titled vehicles as taxis... They also pull some scheming in N.O also.

Him, Garber, Ron Sherman have all been a headache.
Sherman owns QMT I think? And he owns CMT(credit card machine in cabs) so you can guess he makes hand over fist in money which I'm sure him and Freidman and etc.. hustle in. They own the credit card machines, charge the drivers the percentage for transactions, or make them pay a flat rate for the transactions meanwhile they own the credit card machine. In essence... They get paid for making the drivers pay them.

He's been a thorn in Bloombergs side for a long time. What I believe with this whole Uber/Lyft crap is in NYC.. I don't know about anywhere else but in NYC Bloomberg is basically smoking these snakes out. The NYC taxi industry hasn't been as effected by these apps as much as everywhere else has. Our income hasn't changed.. Yea the medallion price has taken a hit but it isn't and never will be worthless. Other cities/medallions? Maybe. But NYC is still producing... People are willing to buy medallions right now for 700-800k but banks and credit unions such as Medallion Financial, Melrose Credit Union(Freidmans pals) aren't lending.. I guess as a way of trying to hold the city hostage by not lending for medallions?

If anyone ever kept up with him prior when the article about Garbers taxi garage was fined $1 million by the state for taxes originally the first news break was that it was Freidmans garage.. Few months later it was written that Garbers garage paid the fine... You can already see how shady it can get from there.

Don't get it all wrong though.. Freidman wasn't all bad.. He did bring new stuff to the table such as hybrid vehicles. He sued the city to be able to put them out on the road which Bloomberg initially fought against.

My phone keeps freezing for some reason so I can't really keep typing much but Like I said I'll explain much better later.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Also think about it like this... 

if the medallion price is $600k let's say he can what? Take out $400k against it? But what about if the medallion price is $1 million? Take out competition and now you're able to take out $800k from the bank in loans because the value of the medallion is now $1 million.... The price which YOU set that only you and your pals can afford. A bubble. That's why Meera Joshi was in the news the other week saying it was a bubble. 

He's used this system to buy a ton of crap. From what I know he owns a good 20+ buildings in NYC and a bunch of other shit. The way I see it Bloombergs trying to cut the snakes head off before it gets bigger on the backs of hard working drivers.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> Also think about it like this...
> 
> if the medallion price is $600k let's say he can what? Take out $400k against it? But what about if the medallion price is $1 million? Take out competition and now you're able to take out $800k from the bank in loans because the value of the medallion is now $1 million.... The price which YOU set that only you and your pals can afford. A bubble. That's why Meera Joshi was in the news the other week saying it was a bubble.
> 
> He's used this system to buy a ton of crap. From what I know he owns a good 20+ buildings in NYC and a bunch of other shit. The way I see it Bloombergs trying to cut the snakes head off before it gets bigger on the backs of hard working drivers.


Bloomberg isn't the Mayor anymore, Big Bird is.
It's interesting that they own Melrose credit union and the credit card machines. I worked for taxi garage where the owner owned bulidings too, but he was a nice guy and treated the drivers fairly.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> Bloomberg isn't the Mayor anymore, Big Bird is.
> It's interesting that they own Melrose credit union and the credit card machines. I worked for a taxi garage where the owner owed bulidings too, but he was a nice guy and treated the drivers fairly.


If you think Bloomberg isn't behind the curtains you're mistaken man. You still see some of Bloombergs initiatives floating around.

Freidman and etc.. Don't own Melrose.. But they have HEAVY connections there.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> If you think Bloomberg isn't behind the curtains you're mistaken man. You still see some of Bloombergs initiatives floating around.
> 
> Freidman and etc.. Don't own Melrose.. But they have HEAVY connections there.


Think about it.. Let's say the medallion hits $700k.. The mortgage would be around what? $2k more or less? That's less than what drivers pay in daily fees right now. They don't want everyone to own medallions. Raise the price up to north of $1 million so it forces drivers to work for them instead of just opting to buy their own.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> If you think Bloomberg isn't behind the curtains you're mistaken man. You still see some of Bloombergs initiatives floating around.
> 
> Freidman and etc.. Don't own Melrose.. But they have HEAVY connections there.


How much did you pay for your medallion if you don't mind me asking ? If it's a bubble your gonna get screwed. I remember when they took the radios out of cabs and allowed black cars, that was the beginning of the end for taxis.
No more out of town trips, just bullshit trips.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

And before everyone comes in saying "see! Death to medallions! Uber on!" Realize we're talking about an asset rather than driving your personal car for pennies and losing any value in your car. You can never in your life convince me that owning an asset is a crooked system compared to illegally driving your vehicle without insurance where you own nothing. At the end of the day if I go to a bank and ask for a loan against my medallion I can... If I go to a bank and tell them I need a loan and tell them "Uber on though!" I'll probably be maced and kicked out.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Bloomberg should force a reclassification on these repossessed medallions. Make them only valid for full-time owner/drivers. Transferable only to owner/drivers. Limit one per two drivers, so they could be co-owned. Cannot be used as collateral. Etc, etc. The medallion system would work better if fleet owners couldn't hold them.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> How much did you pay for your medallion if you don't mind me asking ? If it's a bubble your gonna get screwed. I remember when they took the radios out of cabs and allowed black cars, that was the beginning of the end for taxis.
> No more out of town trips, just bullshit trips.


It's cool.. I'll message you about that but just throwing it out there for everyone else I will not be affected.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

stuber said:


> Bloomberg should force a reclassification on these repossessed medallions. Make them only valid for full-time owner/drivers. Transferable only to owner/drivers. Limit one per two drivers, so they could be co-owned. Cannot be used as collateral. Etc, etc. The medallion system would work better if fleet owners couldn't hold them.


Where would that leave Uber and its drivers?


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

stuber said:


> Bloomberg should force a reclassification on these repossessed medallions. Make them only valid for full-time owner/drivers. Transferable only to owner/drivers. Limit one per two drivers, so they could be co-owned. Cannot be used as collateral. Etc, etc. The medallion system would work better if fleet owners couldn't hold them.


Oh I can't wait to see how that turns out. 120k+ drivers applying for these new medallions you're talking about.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> And before everyone comes in saying "see! Death to medallions! Uber on!" Realize we're talking about an asset rather than driving your personal car for pennies and losing any value in your car. You can never in your life convince me that owning an asset is a crooked system compared to illegally driving your vehicle without insurance where you own nothing. At the end of the day if I go to a bank and ask for a loan against my medallion I can... If I go to a bank and tell them I need a loan and tell them "Uber on though!" I'll probably be maced and kicked out.


I watched a Tlc hearing on tv, one cab driver said Uber is making fools out of cab drivers. 
You can basically make the same with Uber without investing in a medallion now. Don't think I'm pro Uber though.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> Oh I can't wait to see how that turns out. 120k+ drivers applying for these new medallions you're talking about.


Yes, it's called an individual Medallion, you know that, they're not going to change mini fleet medallions to individual medallions, no way.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> I watched a Tlc hearing on tv, one cab driver said Uber is making fools out of cab drivers.
> You can basically make the same with Uber without investing in a medallion now. Don't think I'm pro Uber though.


Yea because of illegal tactics like price gouging. How many drivers rely on the price surges? If you relied solely on the rate Uber gives in NYC for X how much do you think these drivers will make? Also with the lease prices being high it doesn't make sense for them either.

The way I see it... If Uber drivers make so much as they say they do... Why do people lease Camrys for $400 a week 24/7? Why so low? Doesn't add up. Why let a driver keep a car 24/7 for only $400 if you know he's making XX amount of dollars? They keep the cars 24/7 not because they want to let them keep the cars. They do it because they NEED to let them keep it.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> Yes, it's called an individual Medallion, you know that, they're not going to change mini fleet medallions to individual medallions, no way.


Well the TLC actually made the fines MUCH lower for individuals who bought after 1996 to rent out. I think if anything they're trying to blur the lines between individual and mini fleet even more.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> Yea because of illegal tactics like price gouging. How many drivers rely on the price surges? If you relied solely on the rate Uber gives in NYC for X how much do you think these drivers will make? Also with the lease prices being high it doesn't make sense for them either.
> 
> The way I see it... If Uber drivers make so much as they say they do... Why do people lease Camrys for $400 a week 24/7? Why so low? Doesn't add up. Why let a driver keep a car 24/7 for only $400 if you know he's making XX amount of dollars? They keep the cars 24/7 not because they want to let them keep the cars. They do it because they NEED to let them keep it.


I know, I've thought the same thing.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Garages charge $1400 a week for a yellow($700 a driver) because they know the driver will make it. $400 for 1 driver 24/7 doesn't seem to add up to the same. That's while covering the drivers insurance.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> Well the TLC actually made the fines MUCH lower for individuals who bought after 1996 to rent out. I think if anything they're trying to blur the lines between individual and mini fleet even more.


They mentioned that at the TLC hearing, less fines for not driving the required hours per year with the individual medallions.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> Garages charge $1400 a week for a yellow($700 a driver) because they know the driver will make it. $400 for 1 driver 24/7 doesn't seem to add up to the same. That's while covering the drivers insurance.


I had a 24 hour lease, one driver, that's about what I was paying, it became too much for me. I know it doesn't add up.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> They mentioned that at the TLC hearing, less fines for not driving the required hours per year with the individual medallions.


Yea.. What other major differences are there between individual and fleet? I think the amount of time the car can stay on the road too if I remember correctly which the city is changing also.

All in all I feel like the medallion system is the best way to approach somewhere like NYC.. Do we have scumbags in the industry? Of course. But it doesn't seem like Uber is an angel either.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> I had a 24 hour lease, one driver, that's about what I was paying, it became too much for me. I know it doesn't add up.


Yea.. Look at it from the owners POV.. Rent out a vehicle for 24/7.. $400 a week comes out to $1600 a month.. Minus the insurance cost of let's say $400 a month alone you're left with $1,200 a month. Sounds good but let's say the car is financed around $400 a month also and then you're the one covering repair costs... One big repair and your months income has disappeared. Do people make livings off renting vehicles? Of course. I think there's a guy on here still who actually I spoke to and he gave me some useful insight on it. But my point is drivers income isn't any better and if anything worse meanwhile having the car all day everyday.

Street hail is still the most effective pick up. The way I see it.. Even if there was less medallions on the road and more Ubers.. That just means more competition for Uber drivers to get a fare and how many people will hail a Uber and wait 3-5 mins for the vehicle to pull up when there's empty cabs passing right by them? To supplement the drivers incomes on so many drivers being on the system they'd have to raise the rates for drivers to make a living. Won't make sense for a customer to wait 3-5 mins for a surge prices trip while there's a set price cab driving right by. Again I don't know how well I'm doing explaining what I'm trying to say but I hate typing on the phone. All this Uber/taxi crap is effecting people like Freidman and Garber meanwhile my customers haven't changed.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> Yea.. What other major differences are there between individual and fleet? I think the amount of time the car can stay on the road too if I remember correctly which the city is changing also.
> 
> All in all I feel like the medallion system is the best way to approach somewhere like NYC.. Do we have scumbags in the industry? Of course. But it doesn't seem like Uber is an angel either.


It seems like the TLC is trying to give the individual medallion owners a break because they have Uber breathing down their necks.
A major thing at that TLC hearing was to start an app for taxis, instead of just thowing taxis on the street.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> Yea.. Look at it from the owners POV.. Rent out a vehicle for 24/7.. $400 a week comes out to $1600 a month.. Minus the insurance cost of let's say $400 a month alone


With my luck the driver would crash the car on the first day.
I've thought about buying cars and renting them out, but I don't think it's worth the aggravation. 
You must of talked to that guy here "Bully"


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> It seems like the TLC is trying to give the individual medallion owners a break because they have Uber breathing down their necks.
> A major thing at that TLC hearing was to start an app for taxis, instead of just thowing taxis on the street.


Honestly I'm split on all this app crap. Yea it's all cool and all but who's to say that if I get an e-hail that the customer doesn't just hop into another yellow cab? Let's say they hail me and I'm on 60th and 2nd ave but they're on 2nd ave between 66 and 67.. I have to loop back to 68th to go get them. By then I'm sure another car will pass. So while I'm on 63rd and 3rd they already got into another vehicle. Also the headache of figuring out who's who.. I don't like wasting time pulling up to each individual asking "are you John?"

Plus I don't to have to click through 10 different apps to get one fare.


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

End up like this cluster f*** lol


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> Honestly I'm split on all this app crap. Yea it's all cool and all but who's to say that if I get an e-hail that the customer doesn't just hop into another yellow cab? Let's say they hail me and I'm on 60th and 2nd ave but they're on 2nd ave between 66 and 67.. I have to loop back to 68th to go get them. By then I'm sure another car will pass. So while I'm on 63rd and 3rd they already got into another vehicle. Also the headache of figuring out who's who.. I don't like wasting time pulling up to each individual asking "are you John?"
> 
> Plus I don't to have to click through 10 different apps to get one fare.


But you have to admit cruising around is kind of stupid, unless you want to wait at JFK to relax.
They made a very big issue at that TLC hearing about having an app, integrated with the gps /meter


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## Brooklyn (Jul 29, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> But you have to admit cruising around is kind of stupid, unless you want to wait at JFK to relax.


Na you're right. Sometimes it gets irritating when you go several minutes without a fare.. But to sit there double parked with 20 other cars waiting to see if Uber gives me a fare would make me go crazy lol. I'm considering trying Uber for a week or two just to see how it is. It's also irritating when 10 cabs try to cut you off trying to grab your fare. The countless times I was driving and a another cab risked an accident for the $10 fare is nuts. But eventually it'll happen when Uber signs on more drivers and there's no fares to go around for Uber vehicles.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

I haven't made much comment on the back and forth. But I can tell you I have enjoyed reading it. Thanks for sharing. A bit of an eye opener on the industry in NYC.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> Na you're right. Sometimes it gets irritating when you go several minutes without a fare.. But to sit there double parked with 20 other cars waiting to see if Uber gives me a fare would make me go crazy lol. I'm considering trying Uber for a week or two just to see how it is. It's also irritating when 10 cabs try to cut you off trying to grab your fare. The countless times I was driving and a another cab risked an accident for the $10 fare is nuts. But eventually it'll happen when Uber signs on more drivers and there's no fares to go around for Uber vehicles.


I've cruised around for up too an hour with no fare, downtown, uptown, wtf !! I worked at night so sometimes it's one big taxi parade.
The short time I did Uber, I never cruised, drop off, find a place to chill out.
Also, I'm ashamed to admit it but you seem to know a lot more about business end of it than I do, I never really concerned myself too much about it since I never owned a medallion.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Obviously I'm not in NYC. I don't know much about medallions except from what I've read. But it seems to me that the medallion system is actually a good idea. So keep it. But keep non-drivers out.

If 120+ drivers are waiting to bid for an individual medallion, then the resulting price will reflect the actual demand for that.

As is, you have investors and bankers artificially inflating the price. If you have only drivers bidding, then the price has a more realistic ceiling.

As to the question of UBER X? I'd say kick em to the curb. They aren't needed. The licensed cars and medallion cars can easily handle the demand. If not, then allow more licensed and medallion cars in.

I suppose you'll never clean out the gypsies, but their numbers could be reduced too. Enforcement. Fine them massively. Put them in jail if necessary.

Free markets and innovation are wonderful. But people in a given industry may choose to protect their interests too. Nothing wrong with that. 

If UBER wants to sell their technology to the industry, great. It's a good innovation. Customers like it. It can improve everyone's efficiency. But why not just sell it within the framework of the existing infrastructure. Why are they adding cars to the existing infrastructure? Cities need to make maximum use of the the transportation supply they already have. Not add replacement supply.

Fleet owners made the rules. Now UBER is trying to make the rules. Somehow, drivers are always on the losing end. Let drivers rule and the customers will be better served.

But I'm a hopeless idealist.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

observer said:


> Where would that leave Uber and its drivers?


I have no idea.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Brooklyn said:


> Oh I can't wait to see how that turns out. 120k+ drivers applying for these new medallions you're talking about.


I misread your comment. I suppose it's possible that 10,800 people want to bid on the 90 medallions. Maybe.

But if the starting price is say $200,000, then how many people would bid? Remember my scenario states that the owner has to be the driver. Do 10,800 people want to (or have the wherewithal) to make that commitment in order to be a full-time medallion cabbie in NYC? Maybe not. But maybe.

Regardless, the value would be dictated by the actual demand.


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## zandor (Mar 6, 2015)

Isn't supply and demand a pain in the back side?

I suspect one reason for the massive run-up in medallion prices is low interest rates. Until Uber, Lyft, etc. showed up they probably seemed like a relatively safe investment. The city limits the number of medallions to the number of cabs they think they need and a cab can be expected to make $x a week in a controlled market. Thus the "value" of a medallion is the amount of money it would take to generate whatever return the medallion owner can get out of renting one to a driver + car owner if that money was invested in something with similar risk. Interest rates have been quite low for more than a decade and government cab rights were seen as pretty safe until Uber and Lyft showed up so the price went way up.

Now for a pax opinion on how things should work someday: A cab medallion should be an award for being a good driver, and should be non-transferable. You start out driving for a "well managed" TNC and if you are among the best you earn the right to paint your car yellow, pick up street hails, and charge a higher rate.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

zandor said:


> Isn't supply and demand a pain in the back side?
> 
> I suspect one reason for the massive run-up in medallion prices is low interest rates. Until Uber, Lyft, etc. showed up they probably seemed like a relatively safe investment. The city limits the number of medallions to the number of cabs they think they need and a cab can be expected to make $x a week in a controlled market. Thus the "value" of a medallion is the amount of money it would take to generate whatever return the medallion owner can get out of renting one to a driver + car owner if that money was invested in something with similar risk. Interest rates have been quite low for more than a decade and government cab rights were seen as pretty safe until Uber and Lyft showed up so the price went way up.
> 
> Now for a pax opinion on how things should work someday: A cab medallion should be an award for being a good driver, and should be non-transferable. You start out driving for a "well managed" TNC and if you are among the best you earn the right to paint your car yellow, pick up street hails, and charge a higher rate.


"Well managed" ? You MUST mean whoever comes along after UBER.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

I don't know how in the hell NYC could possibly fit any more drive for hire cars on the street from what I've seen there. Maybe there should be a math test involved as to how many square feet of roads are in 70 square miles and how many square feet drive for hire vehicles represent as a percentage of available space?


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> I don't know how in the hell NYC could possibly fit any more drive for hire cars on the street from what I've seen there. Maybe there should be a math test involved as to how many square feet of roads are in 70 square miles and how many square feet drive for hire vehicles represent as a percentage of available space?


Simple UBER math. Replace 1 full-time car with 4 part-time cars. At any given time you'll have the same number of cars occupying the space. This creates 4 times as many "jobs."

Nobody can exist on the pay from these new jobs...but that's irrelevant.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

stuber said:


> Simple UBER math. Replace 1 full-time car with 4 part-time cars. At any given time you'll have the same number of cars occupying the space. This creates 4 times as many "jobs."
> 
> Nobody can exist on the pay from these new jobs...but that's irrelevant.


Cept they're all out at the same time scrambling for surge fares and Uber wants to put 10,000 more drivers on the road in NYC?

Good grief where are the regulators heads? Last time I was there I could have walked anywhere I wanted to go on the roofs of yellow cabs.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Their heads are firmly planted in the backside of Mr. K.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Choose you poison kingpin or UBER


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

stuber said:


> Simple UBER math. Replace 1 full-time car with 4 part-time cars. At any given time you'll have the same number of cars occupying the space. This creates 4 times as many "jobs."
> 
> Nobody can exist on the pay from these new jobs...but that's irrelevant.


That is the fuzzy math from UBER , I remember somthing about un-utilized or under utilized vehicle capacity = why drive your car @ 65mph @ 3500rpm 
That puppy has a lot of unused potential I'll give you 20bucks to redline it for 10 min 
Outcome kaboommmmm


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

DenverDiane said:


> The whole "medallion" concept is a load of crap designed (or evolved) to keeping control of paid street transport in the hands of the wealthy few. You have medallions in a lot of cities and inevitably when you do the taxi service sucks.
> 
> One thing Uber _is_ going to do is prove that the average Joe can get someone from point A to B as well as any "trained" taxi driver which will eventually lead to the entire dissembling of the Taxi monopoly in major cities in perhaps 5 years. You shouldn't have to spend 1 million for the "privilege" of having your own taxi. Uber and Lyft and whatever follows them will knock that concept down once and for all.


Replaced by TNC monopoly


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

20yearsdriving said:


> Replaced by TNC monopoly


If you do this full time why pay 1mil , we will take 20% + of your earnings for Infiniti


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

The most forgot about : livery = real freedom


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## TidyVet (Dec 27, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> I haven't made much comment on the back and forth. But I can tell you I have enjoyed reading it. Thanks for sharing. A bit of an eye opener on the industry in NYC.


I agree. It's nice hearing intelligent conversation about the future of both industries, without the typical "Uber Sucks" or "The Mob Runs The Medallions"


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