# Top Auto Dealer Says Robo-Taxi Hype Has Reached ‘Peak Absurdity’



## jocker12

The auto industry is a long way from seeing autonomous vehicles and ride-hailing companies put an end to traffic deaths and personal car ownership, according to one of the top U.S. auto dealers.

"We have reached peak absurdity on this topic," Wes Lutz, the chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association, said of driverless cars. "Self-driving vehicles are theoretically safer. But we don't know if they are actually safer. And we don't know because there just isn't anywhere near enough data to prove it one way or another."

AAA study that found the annual cost of using a ride hailing service as a primary mode of transportation is $20,118, compared to a $10,049 yearly cost to own a car, including fuel, maintenance, repairs, insurance, license, registration, taxes and parking.

"This should have been front page news in Detroit, on Wall Street and in Silicon Valley," he said in prepared remarks. "Why? Because it disproves one of the central pillars holding up the argument that people are going to stop buying cars, which is that it's cheaper to use ride-hailing services."

Lutz, who has a Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram dealership in Jackson, Michigan, welcomed semi-autonomous technology, such as automatic emergency braking, that he said is improving the performance of human driving. He suggested that's where the billions being spent on driverless technology should be directed.

*More Traffic*
Lutz also cited recent research from New York City's former deputy transportation commissioner Bruce Schaller, who found that Uber Technologies Inc. and Lyft Inc. increase traffic congestion by adding 2.8 new vehicles miles on the road for every one mile of personal driving they replaced.

"This is because the majority of people aren't taking Uber and Lyft instead of driving themselves," Lutz said. "They're taking Uber and Lyft instead of using public transportation, biking or walking."

Lutz encouraged the automotive media to challenge conventional wisdom, even when it sounds more exciting that the reality of about 17 million new cars sales in the U.S. annually.

"We are not only living in exciting times, but also in an era that rewards bold predictions more than gritty reality, especially when reality isn't that exciting," Lutz said. "But I don't think it's a bridge too far to expect reporting on our industry to always be rooted in the reality and facts as we know them today -- not the spin that gets Wall Street all jazzed up."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ays-robo-taxi-hype-has-reached-peak-absurdity


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## Mile HighMile645!

jocker12 said:


> The auto industry is a long way from seeing autonomous vehicles and ride-hailing companies put an end to traffic deaths and personal car ownership, according to one of the top U.S. auto dealers.
> 
> "We have reached peak absurdity on this topic," Wes Lutz, the chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association, said of driverless cars. "Self-driving vehicles are theoretically safer. But we don't know if they are actually safer. And we don't know because there just isn't anywhere near enough data to prove it one way or another."
> 
> AAA study that found the annual cost of using a ride hailing service as a primary mode of transportation is $20,118, compared to a $10,049 yearly cost to own a car, including fuel, maintenance, repairs, insurance, license, registration, taxes and parking.
> 
> "This should have been front page news in Detroit, on Wall Street and in Silicon Valley," he said in prepared remarks. "Why? Because it disproves one of the central pillars holding up the argument that people are going to stop buying cars, which is that it's cheaper to use ride-hailing services."
> 
> Lutz, who has a Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram dealership in Jackson, Michigan, welcomed semi-autonomous technology, such as automatic emergency braking, that he said is improving the performance of human driving. He suggested that's where the billions being spent on driverless technology should be directed.
> 
> *More Traffic*
> Lutz also cited recent research from New York City's former deputy transportation commissioner Bruce Schaller, who found that Uber Technologies Inc. and Lyft Inc. increase traffic congestion by adding 2.8 new vehicles miles on the road for every one mile of personal driving they replaced.
> 
> "This is because the majority of people aren't taking Uber and Lyft instead of driving themselves," Lutz said. "They're taking Uber and Lyft instead of using public transportation, biking or walking."
> 
> Lutz encouraged the automotive media to challenge conventional wisdom, even when it sounds more exciting that the reality of about 17 million new cars sales in the U.S. annually.
> 
> "We are not only living in exciting times, but also in an era that rewards bold predictions more than gritty reality, especially when reality isn't that exciting," Lutz said. "But I don't think it's a bridge too far to expect reporting on our industry to always be rooted in the reality and facts as we know them today -- not the spin that gets Wall Street all jazzed up."
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ays-robo-taxi-hype-has-reached-peak-absurdity


And here's what the CEO of America's _largest_ automotive retailer has to say on the subject:

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/11/...es-the-one-to-beat-in-self-driving-space.html


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## Mile HighMile645!

jocker12 said:


> AAA study that found the annual cost of using a ride hailing service as a primary mode of transportation is $20,118, compared to a $10,049 yearly cost to own a car, including fuel, maintenance, repairs, insurance, license, registration, taxes and parking.
> 
> "This should have been front page news in Detroit, on Wall Street and in Silicon Valley," he said in prepared remarks. "Why? Because it disproves one of the central pillars holding up the argument that people are going to stop buying cars, which is that it's cheaper to use ride-hailing services."


Wes Lutz is being disingenuous. Wes is comparing current human driven ride share to the cost of operating your own car. Wes knows the cost for a self driving taxi service will be less than half that of operating your own car, so Wes just ignores it. Shame on you, Wes.



















https://perspicacity.xyz/2017/06/07/will-you-hire-a-robot-to-be-your-chauffeur/


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## emdeplam

Chair of Dealers Assoc. = chief sales dude = why should we listen to him. No judgement on the opinion but the source brings little confidence


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## Kobayashi Maru

Old Westy Lutz speaks with fork tongue
1. “Incoming NADA Chairman Wes Lutz says change is inevitable”
2. “Question the hype.' That's Wes Lutz's advice on prognostications of how primary transportation models will change“

He knows how he earns a living and who pays him, conversely he knows that future technology is linear and can’t be stopped.

Lutz and Woz are dinosaurs


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## jocker12

Mile HighMile645! said:


> Wes Lutz is being disingenuous.


LOL
It is an AAA report - AAA: Ride-Hailing Twice the Cost of Car Ownership

And who is SETH, the author of that blog post you show as a source?


















emdeplam said:


> the source brings little confidence


Bloomberg? hahahahaha....


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## Mile HighMile645!

jocker12 said:


> It is an AAA report - AAA: Ride-Hailing Twice the Cost of Car Ownership


And the AAA report is correct. "Ride hailing" meaning human driven taxis cost twice that of owning your own car. Self driving taxis, on the other hand, cost less than half that of owning and operating your own car.



jocker12 said:


> And who is SETH, the author of that blog post you show as a source?


If you don't like Seth, how about Larry?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/late-to-the-driverless-revolution-1534520404

"Our analysis later showed that the new business could do all that while saving people most of what they paid for trips in gas-powered, personally owned vehicles, costing them just 20 cents a mile on average compared with a 65-cent average for drives today. (Other studies have found similar costs and savings.) This didn't even count another 85 cents' worth per mile of productive time lost while driving, which they could use for other things while traveling as passengers. If just 10% of driving were diverted to this model, the analysis suggested, it could save on the order of $150 billion a year in operating costs and about another $250 billion in lost driver productivity."


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## Mile HighMile645!

Kobayashi Maru said:


> Old Westy Lutz speaks with fork tongue
> 1. "Incoming NADA Chairman Wes Lutz says change is inevitable"
> 2. "Question the hype.' That's Wes Lutz's advice on prognostications of how primary transportation models will change"
> 
> He knows how he earns a living and who pays him, conversely he knows that future technology is linear and can't be stopped.
> 
> Lutz and Woz are dinosaurs


Not all Lutz's are created equal. Wes is a weenie, Bob is a national treasure. Watch:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/07/for...ob-lutz-self-driving-cars-will-take-over.html


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## HotUberMess

Mile HighMile645! said:


> Not all Lutz's are created equal. Wes is a weenie, Bob is a national treasure. Watch:
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/07/for...ob-lutz-self-driving-cars-will-take-over.html


Hey look it's a Waymo shill profile


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn

Umm

Take JUST driver out of the equation and it's some 4 times? roughly... higher than the estimated self driving vehicle expense?

In what fantasy world does this really make sense to ANYONE!

I mean seriously even in Fantasy the rides need operators to keep people from peeing in the corner and leaving trash everywhere...

(i thought it would be more ironic to use future world from 30 somthing years in the past.









Also these cars could still be double the cost once you factor in all the sensors doohickeys and doodads to make them self driving.


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## Mile HighMile645!

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Umm
> 
> Take JUST driver out of the equation and it's some 4 times? roughly... higher than the estimated self driving vehicle expense?
> 
> In what fantasy world does this really make sense to ANYONE!
> 
> I mean seriously even in Fantasy the rides need operators to keep people from peeing in the corner and leaving trash everywhere...
> 
> (i thought it would be more ironic to use future world from 30 somthing years in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also these cars could still be double the cost once you factor in all the sensors doohickeys and doodads to make them self driving.


Read the article.

"Removing labor from the cost of driving only nets a 2X improvement. Yet when the person is gone, we can built a fleet. When we build a fleet, we can match the size of the battery to the trip that is needed. When we optimize size to rides, we realize that without a human driver, we deploy a one-person vehicle for most needs, at a fraction of the cost of a full sized sedan."


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## jocker12

Mile HighMile645! said:


> Read the article "


LOL

That is not an article.

That ridiculous blog post is to the AAA report what a denying the moon landing blog post is to NASA research - a bad joke.


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## Mile HighMile645!

jocker12 said:


> LOL
> 
> That is not an article.
> 
> That ridiculous blog post is to the AAA report what a denying the moon landing blog post is to NASA research - a bad joke.


What about Larry's Wall Street Journal article, was that acceptable?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/late-to-the-driverless-revolution-1534520404

"Our analysis later showed that the new business could do all that while saving people most of what they paid for trips in gas-powered, personally owned vehicles, costing them just 20 cents a mile on average compared with a 65-cent average for drives today. (Other studies have found similar costs and savings.) This didn't even count another 85 cents' worth per mile of productive time lost while driving, which they could use for other things while traveling as passengers. If just 10% of driving were diverted to this model, the analysis suggested, it could save on the order of $150 billion a year in operating costs and about another $250 billion in lost driver productivity."

Would you accept an unnamed author from the economist?
https://www.economist.com/special-report/2018/03/01/autonomous-vehicles-are-just-around-the-corner

How about Forbes? Surely Forbes is acceptable?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannm...add-billions-to-its-bottom-line/#6a4f0ab03d28

"Ride-hailing companies like Uber lose money today, Ammann said, because most of the price consumers pay goes to the driver. Once you take the driver out of the equation, the cost per mile goes down dramatically, making ride-hailing way more affordable for consumers - and substantially more profitable for providers. The goal, Ammann said, is to reduce the cost per mile from the current $2.50 per mile to less than $1 per mile."


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## jocker12

Mile HighMile645! said:


> And the AAA report is correct. "Ride hailing" meaning human driven taxis cost twice that of owning your own car. Self driving taxis, on the other hand, cost less than half that of owning and operating your own car.


LOL

ride-hailing service - Computer Definition. Transportation from an unlicensed taxi service such as Uber or Lyft. Also called a "ride-sharing" service, which is a misnomer when applied to single-fare rides but accurate when referring to the carpool service that the companies offer. -http://www.yourdictionary.com/ride-hailing-service


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## tohunt4me

Now Agenda 21 knows how much Further they must drive up the costs of Affordable Vehicle Ownership in order to End Personal Vehicle Ownership


New Nanny State Laws & Taxes to come !

I bet the EXECUTIVES WILL ALL HAVE HUMAN DRIVERS !

Not Robo Cars that can be Stopped by a cardboard box in the road
While NEW AGE SOMALIAN MAD MAX ROAD PIRATES PILLAGE RAPE & PLUNDER HAPLESS PASSENGERS HELD HOSTAGE BY STUPID MACHINES !!!


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## Mile HighMile645!

jocker12 said:


> And who is SETH, the author of that blog post you show as a source?


*About Seth*
Seth lives in Longmont, Colorado and works as a technology innovation consultant. He has a Ph.D. in chemistry from Caltech, which he got in order to satisfy a long-standing itch to understand how the world works. But it's probably just as useful to know that he has a bachelors from a really good liberal arts college, has co-founded several startups, and has over 80 issued US patents in a bunch of different fields, from energy storage to medical devices to software. You can reach him at seth /at/ perspicacity /dot/ xyz.


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## HotUberMess

Mile HighMile645! said:


> *About Seth*
> Seth lives in Longmont, Colorado and works as a technology innovation consultant. He has a Ph.D. in chemistry from Caltech, which he got in order to satisfy a long-standing itch to understand how the world works. But it's probably just as useful to know that he has a bachelors from a really good liberal arts college, has co-founded several startups, and has over 80 issued US patents in a bunch of different fields, from energy storage to medical devices to software. You can reach him at seth /at/ perspicacity /dot/ xyz.


Quick question, is Seth also employed by Waymo?

To everyone else: When the driver disappears, so does Uber's liability scam. In some areas like Orlando, driver pay is so low, it's less than the cost of operating a car. The company will now own the cars and all the liability that comes with it. This makes it impossible to offer driverless cars that cost less than driven cars.

And that 54 cents per mile doesn't even include the added costs of operating a _rideshare_ vehicle; the vomit, urine, food, feces, careless damage, sugary drinks, outright assaults, vandalism (yes, my car has been _vandalized_ by a rider)..


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## tohunt4me

It will be ABSOLUTE DISASTER !
Daily HORROR STORIES OF THE SHORTCOMINGS AND FAILURE OF AUTOMATION IN UNCONTROLLED ENVIRONMENTS !

We are the Security.

Without us
You have Nothing !

CHAOS !

" WILD WILD WEST " brought to you by ROBO CARS !

HUMAN DRIVERS can See Trouble coming.
Unlike Autonomous.

Unlike the Geeks decrying and exaulting Robo Cars.

We KNOW THE REAL WORLD.

" WAYMO " Trouble is coming to vitims of A.I.

TRAVEL AT YOUR OWN PERIL !


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## jocker12

Mile HighMile645! said:


> *About Seth*
> Seth lives in Longmont, Colorado and works as a technology innovation consultant. He has a Ph.D. in chemistry from Caltech, which he got in order to satisfy a long-standing itch to understand how the world works. But it's probably just as useful to know that he has a bachelors from a really good liberal arts college, has co-founded several startups, and has over 80 issued US patents in a bunch of different fields, from energy storage to medical devices to software. You can reach him at seth /at/ perspicacity /dot/ xyz.


What's his last name? He should be famous if somebody sees him as relevant as a source as AAA is.


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## Mile HighMile645!

Miller. Seth Miller.

https://heronscientific.com/about-1/


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## goneubering

jocker12 said:


> The auto industry is a long way from seeing autonomous vehicles and ride-hailing companies put an end to traffic deaths and personal car ownership, according to one of the top U.S. auto dealers.
> 
> "We have reached peak absurdity on this topic," Wes Lutz, the chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association, said of driverless cars. "Self-driving vehicles are theoretically safer. But we don't know if they are actually safer. And we don't know because there just isn't anywhere near enough data to prove it one way or another."
> 
> AAA study that found the annual cost of using a ride hailing service as a primary mode of transportation is $20,118, compared to a $10,049 yearly cost to own a car, including fuel, maintenance, repairs, insurance, license, registration, taxes and parking.
> 
> "This should have been front page news in Detroit, on Wall Street and in Silicon Valley," he said in prepared remarks. "Why? Because it disproves one of the central pillars holding up the argument that people are going to stop buying cars, which is that it's cheaper to use ride-hailing services."
> 
> Lutz, who has a Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram dealership in Jackson, Michigan, welcomed semi-autonomous technology, such as automatic emergency braking, that he said is improving the performance of human driving. He suggested that's where the billions being spent on driverless technology should be directed.
> 
> *More Traffic*
> Lutz also cited recent research from New York City's former deputy transportation commissioner Bruce Schaller, who found that Uber Technologies Inc. and Lyft Inc. increase traffic congestion by adding 2.8 new vehicles miles on the road for every one mile of personal driving they replaced.
> 
> "This is because the majority of people aren't taking Uber and Lyft instead of driving themselves," Lutz said. "They're taking Uber and Lyft instead of using public transportation, biking or walking."
> 
> Lutz encouraged the automotive media to challenge conventional wisdom, even when it sounds more exciting that the reality of about 17 million new cars sales in the U.S. annually.
> 
> "We are not only living in exciting times, but also in an era that rewards bold predictions more than gritty reality, especially when reality isn't that exciting," Lutz said. "But I don't think it's a bridge too far to expect reporting on our industry to always be rooted in the reality and facts as we know them today -- not the spin that gets Wall Street all jazzed up."
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ays-robo-taxi-hype-has-reached-peak-absurdity


All the SDC hype is almost as absurd as the bitcoin craze.


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## Mile HighMile645!

HotUberMess said:


> Quick question, is Seth also employed by Waymo?
> 
> To everyone else: When the driver disappears, so does Uber's liability scam. In some areas like Orlando, driver pay is so low, it's less than the cost of operating a car. The company will now own the cars and all the liability that comes with it. This makes it impossible to offer driverless cars that cost less than driven cars.
> 
> And that 54 cents per mile doesn't even include the added costs of operating a _rideshare_ vehicle; the vomit, urine, food, feces, careless damage, sugary drinks, outright assaults, vandalism (yes, my car has been _vandalized_ by a rider)..


This is not even about Uber. The chance Uber will ever be a player in the self driving game is slim to none. VW is investing 40 billion over five years on electric vehicles, self driving, and mobility services. Why? Because they have no other option.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/volksw...34-bln-in-electric-autonomous-cars-1510928349

The cost to insure self driving cars will be negligible, so insurance isn't even an issue. Self driving cars are not only going to wipe out ride share and taxis, but car ownership as well.


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## goneubering

Mile HighMile645! said:


> This is not even about Uber. The chance Uber will ever be a player in the self driving game is slim to none. VW is investing 40 billion over five years on electric vehicles, self driving, and mobility services. Why? Because they have no other option.
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/volksw...34-bln-in-electric-autonomous-cars-1510928349
> 
> The cost to insure self driving cars will be negligible, so insurance isn't even an issue. Self driving cars are not only going to wipe out ride share and taxis, but car ownership as well.


And right on cue we have a perfect example of "Peak Absurdity".


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## Mile HighMile645!

goneubering said:


> And right on cue we have a perfect example of "Peak Absurdity".


Can you explain why VW is investing 40 billion over five years on electric vehicles, self driving, and mobility services?


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## HotUberMess

Mile HighMile645! said:


> This is not even about Uber. The chance Uber will ever be a player in the self driving game is slim to none. VW is investing 40 billion over five years on electric vehicles, self driving, and mobility services. Why? Because they have no other option.
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/volksw...34-bln-in-electric-autonomous-cars-1510928349
> 
> The cost to insure self driving cars will be negligible, so insurance isn't even an issue. Self driving cars are not only going to wipe out ride share and taxis, but car ownership as well.


Wiping out rideshare is never going to happen.. also, just so you know, I consider anyone who argues while getting paid to be less of an authority than my cat on any given topic.

SDC rideshare cars will be rolling WalMart bathrooms. These pax need a babysitter. I do admit I will enjoy seeing it fail if for no other reason than Waymo's outrageous claims being refuted.

Of course you will have been let go by then and we'll never see you logging on to admit your error


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn

HotUberMess said:


> Quick question, is Seth also employed by Waymo?
> 
> To everyone else: When the driver disappears, so does Uber's liability scam. In some areas like Orlando, driver pay is so low, it's less than the cost of operating a car. The company will now own the cars and all the liability that comes with it. This makes it impossible to offer driverless cars that cost less than driven cars.
> 
> And that 54 cents per mile doesn't even include the added costs of operating a _rideshare_ vehicle; the vomit, urine, food, feces, careless damage, sugary drinks, outright assaults, vandalism (yes, my car has been _vandalized_ by a rider)..


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.slate.com/technology/2018/05/who-will-clean-self-driving-cars.html

I've wondered that to.



HotUberMess said:


> Wiping out rideshare is never going to happen.. also, just so you know, I consider anyone who argues while getting paid to be less of an authority than my cat on any given topic.
> 
> SDC rideshare cars will be rolling WalMart bathrooms. These pax need a babysitter. I do admit I will enjoy seeing it fail if for no other reason than Waymo's outrageous claims being refuted.
> 
> Of course you will have been let go by then and we'll never see you logging on to admit your error


I'm just imagining what the late night drunken idiots will do to them before they get sent to pick up the crack-o-dawn airport riders.


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## Mista T

If human driven vehicles become a thing of the past, what will happen to the multi billion dollar Nascar and Race car industries? I mean, if no one knows how to drive.... if states no longer issue drivers licenses....


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## HotUberMess

Period blood. Little kid urine. People changing dirty diapers and then leaving the diapers in the door pocket. Food wrappers, candy wrappers, foil left over from heroin, crack. Hypodermic needles. Sticky surfaces. Slick surfaces, semen, vaginal fluids, Slurpees. Names etched into fabric. 

I can’t wait to take a Waymo trash can ride


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## goneubering

HotUberMess said:


> Period blood. Little kid urine. People changing dirty diapers and then leaving the diapers in the door pocket. Food wrappers, candy wrappers, foil left over from heroin, crack. Hypodermic needles. Sticky surfaces. Slick surfaces, semen, vaginal fluids, Slurpees. Names etched into fabric.
> 
> I can't wait to take a Waymo trash can ride


Excellent points. To avoid complaints from riders I clean out my car multiple times per day.


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## Mista T

HotUberMess said:


> Period blood. Little kid urine. People changing dirty diapers and then leaving the diapers in the door pocket. Food wrappers, candy wrappers, foil left over from heroin, crack. Hypodermic needles. Sticky surfaces. Slick surfaces, semen, vaginal fluids, Slurpees. Names etched into fabric.
> 
> I can't wait to take a Waymo trash can ride


Here's a common one...

Pax exits vehicle and closes the door with seat belt in the door. Door does not register as closed. Pax is long gone. Who is gonna open and close the door and fix seatbelt? Even if they are automatic doors, still gotta get that seatbelt outta there before vehicle can move, no movement until door is closed, right?


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## HotUberMess

Mista T said:


> Here's a common one...
> 
> Pax exits vehicle and closes the door with seat belt in the door. Door does not register as closed. Pax is long gone. Who is gonna open and close the door and fix seatbelt? Even if they are automatic doors, still gotta get that seatbelt outta there before vehicle can move, no movement until door is closed, right?


I've had this happen LOL!!


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## Mile HighMile645!

Mista T said:


> If human driven vehicles become a thing of the past, what will happen to the multi billion dollar Nascar and Race car industries? I mean, if no one knows how to drive.... if states no longer issue drivers licenses....


They will survive just like horse racing and rodeos and equestrian events survive even though almost no one rides horses. But there will also be Roboracers.


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## HotUberMess

Damn this Waymobot is up late


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## Mile HighMile645!

Mista T said:


> Here's a common one...
> 
> Pax exits vehicle and closes the door with seat belt in the door. Door does not register as closed. Pax is long gone. Who is gonna open and close the door and fix seatbelt? Even if they are automatic doors, still gotta get that seatbelt outta there before vehicle can move, no movement until door is closed, right?


http://www.autonews.com/article/201...a-self-driving-car-will-change-even-the-doors


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn

Someone who puts a bucket over a rag sensor so that they won’t get charged wait time ?

Or even just a baby carriage in the driveway to block the car in?


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## Lowestformofwit

"GM's driverless car bet faces long road ahead"
https://apple.news/AOrgeLNyJQ-ivdLHbNEABKA
"It's a speculative investment," said SoftBank's Ronen. "These are still unproven technologies."


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## Mile HighMile645!

The pax will be sent an alert that the meter is still running because the door was not closed.

Oops, wrong thread.


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## Mile HighMile645!

Lowestformofwit said:


> "GM's driverless car bet faces long road ahead"
> https://apple.news/AOrgeLNyJQ-ivdLHbNEABKA
> "It's a speculative investment," said SoftBank's Ronen. "These are still unproven technologies."


GM and others will get there eventually. Probably not in 2019 though. The question is how many years will Waymo have the entire market to themselves?


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## Mile HighMile645!

Here's the problem for GM and everyone else. Waymo will continue to have the market to themselves for probably two years if not longer. Waymo's charging similar pricing as Uber and Lyft and have no reason to reduce prices until GM or someone else enters the market. At Uber prices Waymo will make a killing over the next two years. Then as soon as GM or others enter the market, Waymo will simply slash the price. Waymo will be the only company able to achieve these huge margins, even if it's only for a short time.


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## Jo3030

Gas needs to go up to destroy this as an idea.


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## getawaycar

So everyone will be commuting to their jobs in a self-driving taxi? LOL. 

The cost would be crazy expensive.


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## Mile HighMile645!

getawaycar said:


> So everyone will be commuting to their jobs in a self-driving taxi? LOL.
> 
> The cost would be crazy expensive.


The cost will be half that of driving your own car.


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## getawaycar

Mile HighMile645! said:


> The cost will be half that of driving your own car.
> 
> View attachment 269210


Numbers provided by Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley?

Its time for Wall Street to inflate another massive financial bubble. This time its self-driving cars.


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## The Gift of Fish

Mile HighMile645! said:


> The cost will be half that of driving your own car.
> 
> View attachment 269210


Sorry, old bean, but I'm going to have to call bullshit on your graphic. The math just doesn't stack up.

You say, via your graphic, that UberX costs $2.15 per mile. Ok. Uber's latest financials show that they are taking, on average, approximately 30% of gross takings from the drivers as commission. If we apply the 30% to your $2.15 per mile we get revenue for Uber on UberX of 64¢ per mile. Remember, other than insurance, Uber has no vehicle costs now (drivers cover all vehicle expenses for them), so all of that 64¢ per mile goes towards Uber's non-direct operating expenses. Which it doesn't even cover completely, given that Uber makes a thumping great loss each quarter.

Anyway, once Uber does have its "single rider autonomous" vehicles, which it will have to purchase, maintain, service and clean, you're saying that Uber will only charge people 25¢ per mile for these. So... Uber's revenue per mile will fall from 64¢ per mile to 25¢ per mile. Uber can't make a profit now with revenue at 64¢ per mile and no vehicle costs.... but it will somehow make a profit charging 25¢ per mile _and_ with extra vehicle costs that it does not have now?

ROFLMAO. You're talking gibberish, man. Absolute nonsense.


----------



## Mile HighMile645!

The Gift of Fish said:


> Sorry, old bean, but I'm going to have to call bullshit on your graphic. The math just doesn't stack up.
> 
> You say, via your graphic, that UberX costs $2.15 per mile. Ok. Uber's latest financials show that they are taking, on average, approximately 30% of gross takings from the drivers as commission. If we apply the 30% to your $2.15 per mile we get revenue for Uber on UberX of 64¢ per mile. Remember, other than insurance, Uber has no vehicle costs now (drivers cover all vehicle expenses for them), so all of that 64¢ per mile goes towards Uber's non-direct operating expenses. Which it doesn't even cover completely, given that Uber makes a thumping great loss each quarter.
> 
> Anyway, once Uber does have its "single rider autonomous" vehicles, which it will have to purchase, maintain, service and clean, you're saying that Uber will only charge people 25¢ per mile for these. So... Uber's revenue per mile will fall from 64¢ per mile to 25¢ per mile. Uber can't make a profit now with revenue at 64¢ per mile and no vehicle costs.... but it will somehow make a profit charging 25¢ per mile _and_ with extra vehicle costs that it does not have now?
> 
> ROFLMAO. You're talking gibberish, man. Absolute nonsense.


Zero gibberish. What does it cost Uber to replace their entire driver pool every year; driver recruiting advertising, sign-on bonuses, background checks, greenlight hubs, etc? How much does it cost the sdc company for any of these things? Zero. There is a misconception that Uber has no vehicle costs. Uber drivers are paying retail for; the car, gas, insurance, maintenance. The self driving car company is paying fleet prices for all their cars, if not getting them at cost, for a company like GM Cruise. Uber still has to make it worthwhile for drivers to drive, so Uber is paying all the costs for the car - retail costs.

I don't see Uber surviving the transition to self driving. Every car company in the world is working on a self driving ride share service, along with every major tech company. When you remove the driver, Uber is starting from ground zero, they have no advantage over any other self driving car company.


----------



## The Gift of Fish

Mile HighMile645! said:


> There is a misconception that Uber has no vehicle costs. Uber drivers are paying retail for; the car, gas, insurance, maintenance. The self driving car company is paying fleet prices for all their cars, if not getting them at cost, for a company like GM Cruise. Uber still has to make it worthwhile for drivers to drive, so Uber is paying all the costs for the car - retail costs.


No. You misunderstand the numbers. Other than insurance, Uber does not pay any car costs.

As explained above, the revenue split is currently about 30% for Uber, 70% for the driver. There are indeed currently significant vehicle acquisition and running expenses, all of which (bar commercial insurance) come out of the driver's 70% share - the drivers' share includes driver profit and drivers' vehicle expenses. Again, if we apply Uber's 30% share of revenue to your figure of $2.15 per mile paid by pax, then we get revenue for Uber of 64¢ per mile. Uber pays $0.00 of that money to drivers for non-insurance car expenses; it is money which Uber keeps. This graphic explains very clearly the revenue split, and who pays vehicle expenses:











> What does it cost Uber to replace their entire driver pool every year; driver recruiting advertising, sign-on bonuses, background checks, greenlight hubs, etc?


Let's be extremely generous and imagine that driver-associated costs including advertisements, background checks etc are 20% of Uber's entire operating expense. That would mean that Uber could maintain its losses at the current level of $400m per quarter by eliminating drivers and reducing its revenue from 64¢ per mile to 51¢ per mile. If Uber owns their SDC, we have to add that cost. Let's be extremely generous again and say that the cost of running an SDC is just 8¢ per mile. That takes us up to 59¢ per mile. Yet your graphic says that Uber is going to charge just 25¢ per mile for its single occupant SDC! And this cost and revenue structure would still maintain a scenario of massive and unsustainable quarterly losses for Uber.

As I said, your numbers just don't stack up.


> I don't see Uber surviving the transition to self driving.


Well... no. However, you stated above that people will be paying 25¢ per mile for their future rides in SDC. If Uber isn't going to be the one to provide them, then who is? And how will they be able to provide them with a cost base that is significantly lower than what Uber can achieve? If you can provide a breakdown of Uber's operating costs, and how these can be reduced by some other company in order to be able to charge 25¢ per mile _and _still make a profit, then your vision of the future might have some credibility. Without that, alas, you'll remain firmly in the realm of flying robot rocket cars, money trees and other fantasy.


----------



## Mile HighMile645!

The Gift of Fish said:


> No. You misunderstand the numbers. Other than insurance, Uber does not pay any car costs.
> 
> As explained above, the revenue split is currently about 30% for Uber, 70% for the driver. There are indeed currently significant vehicle acquisition and running expenses, all of which (bar commercial insurance) come out of the driver's 70% share - the drivers' share includes driver profit and drivers' vehicle expenses. Again, if we apply Uber's 30% share of revenue to your figure of $2.15 per mile paid by pax, then we get revenue for Uber of 64¢ per mile. Uber pays $0.00 of that money to drivers for non-insurance car expenses; it is money which Uber keeps. This graphic explains very clearly the revenue split, and who pays vehicle expenses:
> 
> View attachment 269372
> 
> Let's be extremely generous and imagine that driver-associated costs including advertisements, background checks etc are 20% of Uber's entire operating expense. That would mean that Uber could maintain its losses at the current level of $400m per quarter by eliminating drivers and reducing its revenue from 64¢ per mile to 51¢ per mile. If Uber owns their SDC, we have to add that cost. Let's be extremely generous again and say that the cost of running an SDC is just 8¢ per mile. That takes us up to 59¢ per mile. Yet your graphic says that Uber is going to charge just 25¢ per mile for its single occupant SDC! And this cost and revenue structure would still maintain a scenario of massive and unsustainable quarterly losses for Uber.
> 
> As I said, your numbers just don't stack up.
> Well... no. However, you stated above that people will be paying 25¢ per mile for their future rides in SDC. If Uber isn't going to be the one to provide them, then who is? And how will they be able to provide them with a cost base that is significantly lower than what Uber can achieve? If you can provide a breakdown of Uber's operating costs, and how these can be reduced by some other company in order to be able to charge 25¢ per mile _and _still make a profit, then your vision of the future might have some credibility. Without that, alas, you'll remain firmly in the realm of flying robot rocket cars, money trees and other fantasy.


*No. You misunderstand the numbers. Other than insurance, Uber does not pay any car costs.*

Uber is paying all car related costs in the 70 percent they have to pay to the driver in order operate the business. It's a very flawed business model because Uber is, in essence, paying retail for all their car related costs. The self driving taxi company will be making 100 percent of the fare paid by the passenger, or $2.15 per mile (in this scenario). The difference between making 64 cents a mile and making $2.15 a mile is where Uber is paying all car related costs.

*Well... no. However, you stated above that people will be paying 25¢ per mile for their future rides in SDC.*

No, I did not state that. The chart is showing what the total costs are to operate each form of transportation. So let's say the self driving car company charges 50 cents per mile, that's a 50 percent margin. A fifty percent margin is huge. There are many other companies with similar charts and similar numbers, some showing even lower costs.

"Our analysis later showed that the new business could do all that while saving people most of what they paid for trips in gas-powered, personally owned vehicles, costing them just 20 cents a mile on average compared with a 65-cent average for drives today. (Other studies have found similar costs and savings.) This didn't even count another 85 cents' worth per mile of productive time lost while driving, which they could use for other things while traveling as passengers."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/late-to-the-driverless-revolution-1534520404

But the true savings is not just from eliminating the driver but from being able to tailor your fleet to the particular ride.

"Removing labor from the cost of driving only nets a 2X improvement. Yet when the person is gone, we can built a fleet. When we build a fleet, we can match the size of the battery to the trip that is needed. When we optimize size to rides, we realize that without a human driver, we deploy a one-person vehicle for most needs, at a fraction of the cost of a full sized sedan."

https://perspicacity.xyz/2017/06/07/will-you-hire-a-robot-to-be-your-chauffeur/

This is GM's EN-V prototype from 2011. The cost for GM to mass produce small cars like this would be around 5 to 6 thousand dollars each. This is likely how you'll get around in Manhattan and on the Las Vegas Strip and in most major cities' downtown in the not to distant future. Oh, and for you Segway haters, yes, these are Segways.






PS:
Flying robot cars are already here as well.

https://uberpeople.net/threads/drone-taxis-are-taking-off-in-singapore.290748/


----------



## The Gift of Fish

Mile HighMile645! said:


> Uber is paying all car related costs in the 70 percent they have to pay to the driver in order operate the business.


Nope. You are confusing gross bookings, from which drivers are paid, and Uber's revenue, from which no car costs are paid other than insurance. You evidently don't realise that Uber does not classify gross bookings as its own revenue (or the related expenses such as vehicle expenses as its own expenses). It treats driver revenue (including car expenses) as a pass-through, direct from pax to drivers - neither this revenue nor the expense portion hit Uber's income statement. It is allowed to do so under US GAAP (generally agreed accounting principles).


> No, I did not state that.


Yeah, you did:


> The cost will be half that of driving your own car.


The 25 cents per mile price-to-consumer is also in your graphic, which you presented as fact.

This is also wrong:


> The chart is showing what the total costs are to operate each form of transportation.


Nope. Have another read of your chart's title. It is "Estimated Cost Per Mile of Vehicle Services For Consumers". So that's the cost for the consumer of using a SDC service, and therefore the revenue per mile for the car service, not the cost to the car service of operating its cars.


> So let's say the self driving car company charges 50 cents per mile, that's a 50 percent margin. A fifty percent margin is huge.


Let's not say that the SDC company charges 50 cents, or 100 cents or 200 cents. Your graphic says that consumers will pay 25 cents per mile, that's what you originally put forward and now that I have pointed out that is silly, you're changing what you're saying.

It seems that you're very confused by this whole SDC concept in terms of the financials.


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## Mile HighMile645!

The Gift of Fish said:


> Nope. You are confusing gross bookings, from which drivers are paid, and Uber's revenue, from which no car costs are paid other than insurance. You evidently don't realise that Uber does not classify gross bookings as its own revenue (or the related expenses such as vehicle expenses as its own expenses). It treats driver revenue (including car expenses) as a pass-through, direct from pax to drivers - neither this revenue nor the expense portion hit Uber's income statement. It is allowed to do so under US GAAP (generally agreed accounting principles).
> 
> Yeah, you did:
> The 25 cents per mile price-to-consumer is also in your graphic, which you presented as fact.
> 
> This is also wrong:
> Nope. Have another read of your chart's title. It is "Estimated Cost Per Mile of Vehicle Services For Consumers". So that's the cost for the consumer of using a SDC service, and therefore the revenue per mile for the car service, not the cost to the car service of operating its cars.
> Let's not say that the SDC company charges 50 cents, or 100 cents or 200 cents. Your graphic says that consumers will pay 25 cents per mile, that's what you originally put forward and now that I have pointed out that is silly, you're changing what you're saying.
> 
> It seems that you're very confused by this whole SDC concept in terms of the financials.


Who cares how Uber classifies gross bookings? The business model doesn't work. All drivers care about is how much is my take home pay after expenses, and obviously it's not enough because Uber has to hire a new driver pool every year and even after doing that they still lose billions a year.

You're right, the chart does say 'estimated cost per mile of vehicle services for consumers.' The BI Inteligence chart has it at 25 cents per mile. Larry Burns has it a 20 cents per mile and ARK has it at 35 cents per mile. For this discussion does it really matter if it's 20 cents a mile or 25 cents a mile, or 50 cents a mile? Are Uber drivers going to drive for 50 cents a mile minus Uber's cut?

Me: The cost will be half that of driving your own car.
You: This is also wrong.
Me: Please show your work.


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## goneubering

Mile HighMile645! said:


> PS:
> Flying robot cars are already here as well.
> 
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/drone-taxis-are-taking-off-in-singapore.290748/
> 
> View attachment 269397


LOL

A good troll would actually read the article before posting it. Try again.
*

Volocopter spokesman said while its air taxis are currently not being used commercially anywhere, it is focusing on "achieving commercial certification to operate (them) as air taxis". "We expect the first commercial air taxi routes to open in three to five years. We are in discussions with cities around the world, including some in Germany," said the spokesman.*


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## The Gift of Fish

Mile HighMile645! said:


> Who cares how Uber classifies gross bookings? The business model doesn't work. All drivers care about is how much is my take home pay after expenses, and obviously it's not enough because Uber has to hire a new driver pool every year and even after doing that they still lose billions a year.
> 
> You're right, the chart does say 'estimated cost per mile of vehicle services for consumers.' The BI Inteligence chart has it at 25 cents per mile. Larry Burns has it a 20 cents per mile and ARK has it at 35 cents per mile. For this discussion does it really matter if it's 20 cents a mile or 25 cents a mile, or 50 cents a mile? Are Uber drivers going to drive for 50 cents a mile minus Uber's cut?
> 
> Me: The cost will be half that of driving your own car.
> You: This is also wrong.
> Me: Please show your work.


No, I think I'll park it here. Your arguments are all over the place.


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## Mile HighMile645!

goneubering said:


> LOL
> 
> A good troll would actually read the article before posting it. Try again.
> *
> 
> Volocopter spokesman said while its air taxis are currently not being used commercially anywhere, it is focusing on "achieving commercial certification to operate (them) as air taxis". "We expect the first commercial air taxi routes to open in three to five years. We are in discussions with cities around the world, including some in Germany," said the spokesman.*


If all they're waiting on is commercial certification then they're here. They work.


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## goneubering

Mile HighMile645! said:


> If all they're waiting on is commercial certification then they're here. They work.


Nobody on this forum believes your definition of "here" just like we don't believe your definition of "making money".


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## Mile HighMile645!

The Gift of Fish said:


> No, I think I'll park it here. Your arguments are all over the place.


My argument is very simple.












goneubering said:


> Nobody on this forum believes your definition of "here" just like we don't believe your definition of "making money".


If you hooked them up to a lie detector they'd agree with me. Dubai's crown prince took a flight in a Volocopter, you don't do that if you think you only have a 50/50 chance of survival. If your definition of 'making money' is 'making a profit' then Uber has never made money in their entire 10 year existence.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn

It will NEVER be cheaper to hire a car than it is to operate your own.

That’s all there is to it.

Assuming otherwise is to throw a monkey wrench at logic.

Hiring cars involves empty miles, extra cleaning time, more maintenance...


However there may come a point where it is cheaper to hire a car than it is to PARK a car,..

Which means that in a very small handful of places in the US this might turn out to be the case.


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## Mile HighMile645!

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> It will NEVER be cheaper to hire a car than it is to operate your own.
> 
> That's all there is to it.


If your car costs 30k but now you're able to share your car with 2 other people, your car now only costs you 10k. However, this is not practical with current technology because you need your car when you need your car. However with self driving cars you have enough cars to handle demand. Just like airlines do, if you want to travel during peak demand, you'll pay a premium. If you can delay your trip 20 minutes, you avoid the surcharge.

So we've turned your 30 thousand dollar car into a 10 thousand dollar car. But actually the 30k car was bought at fleet prices so it was only 20k to start with. Now let's look at the other costs. Fuel will be cut in half because it's electric and bought in bulk. Parking will be eliminated. Financing cut by at least two thirds. Insurance reduced by 90 percent. Maintenance, registration, tires; all greatly reduced given that where dealing with a fleet of cars being professionally maintained.


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## heynow321

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> It will NEVER be cheaper to hire a car than it is to operate your own.
> 
> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Assuming otherwise is to throw a monkey wrench at logic.
> 
> Hiring cars involves empty miles, extra cleaning time, more maintenance...
> 
> However there may come a point where it is cheaper to hire a car than it is to PARK a car,..
> 
> Which means that in a very small handful of places in the US this might turn out to be the case.


exactly this. a simple yet powerful point.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn

Mile HighMile645! said:


> If your car costs 30k but now you're able to share your car with 2 other people, your car now only costs you 10k. However, this is not practical with current technology because you need your car when you need your car. However with self driving cars you have enough cars to handle demand. Just like airlines do, if you want to travel during peak demand, you'll pay a premium. If you can delay your trip 20 minutes, you avoid the surcharge.
> 
> So we've turned your 30 thousand dollar car into a 10 thousand dollar car. But actually the 30k car was bought at fleet prices so it was only 20k to start with. Now let's look at the other costs. Fuel will be cut in half because it's electric and bought in bulk. Parking will be eliminated. Financing cut by at least two thirds. Insurance reduced by 90 percent. Maintenance, registration, tires; all greatly reduced given that where dealing with a fleet of cars being professionally maintained.
> 
> View attachment 270191


Except... most cars get driven a certain number of miles mlr for a certain number of years.

I've kept my last 3 cars 8+ years each. 2 of them were bought used.
I bought s 91 f150 in 2006 sold in 2018,
My neon I bought in 2004, still have it.
My focus was bought in 2010? Still have it.



Mile HighMile645! said:


> If your car costs 30k but now you're able to share your car with 2 other people, your car now only costs you 10k. However, this is not practical with current technology because you need your car when you need your car. However with self driving cars you have enough cars to handle demand. Just like airlines do, if you want to travel during peak demand, you'll pay a premium. If you can delay your trip 20 minutes, you avoid the surcharge.
> 
> So we've turned your 30 thousand dollar car into a 10 thousand dollar car. But actually the 30k car was bought at fleet prices so it was only 20k to start with. Now let's look at the other costs. Fuel will be cut in half because it's electric and bought in bulk. Parking will be eliminated. Financing cut by at least two thirds. Insurance reduced by 90 percent. Maintenance, registration, tires; all greatly reduced given that where dealing with a fleet of cars being professionally maintained.
> 
> View attachment 270191


I do however believe that the cost of operating your own vehicle is going to go down over the next few years as electric engines dominate the market.

Self driving is another matter entirely. If it's possible I predict people to own their own so they aren't getting upcharged to use it when they want to or finding crack needles and vomit all the time.

But if those two things do come to pass, it will still be cheaper to own your own self driving vehicle than to Hire one. Particularly if you want to commute during the busy morning/afternoon commute hours.

Uber is comparing modern electric vehicles to a average gasoline ones, and astounding the public with the cost savings...


----------



## Mile HighMile645!

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> But if those two things do come to pass, it will still be cheaper to own your own self driving vehicle than to Hire one. Particularly if you want to commute during the busy morning/afternoon commute hours.


It won't. If you buy your own self driving car you're paying retail for the car and every related expense associated with operating the car. Then you have to deal with parking and your very expensive asset is back to only being utilized 5 percent of the time.

If you're commuting to work everyday you'll prepay for three months in advance. If you're home sick, you simply lose out that day.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn

Mile HighMile645! said:


> Then you have to deal with parking and your very expensive asset is back to only being utilized 5 percent of the time.


I would have no problems buying an SDV even if i never "rented it out" to make money. For one it would last a heck of a lot longer, for 2 if the prices come down like that chart indicates it would end up being cheaper than any of the vehicles i currently own.

So really... let's say an autonomous taxi ends up costing 35c per every mile driven. With the numbers i see 50% paid would be generous.

That's 70c for every loaded mile...

Then you need to throw in uber's profit margin (I know... REALLY reaching here)

And the cost is up to $1.00 per mile.

You also need to keep in mind,

Unless all trips are matched a great deal of the time, your getting less useful miles with a hired vehicle than people driving themselves.

The net result being that it's less fuel and less total miles driven for all 20 of my theoretical customers to drive themselves than to hire me.

About 120 miles less driven... for every 80 "loaded miles"

*AND!
*
It will always be there when i want/need it without the risk of sitting on a crack needle.

I also live in a city with ample parking.


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## tohunt4me

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.slate.com/technology/2018/05/who-will-clean-self-driving-cars.html
> 
> I've wondered that to.
> 
> I'm just imagining what the late night drunken idiots will do to them before they get sent to pick up the crack-o-dawn airport riders.


I have seen.
No imagination required.



Mile HighMile645! said:


> Zero gibberish. What does it cost Uber to replace their entire driver pool every year; driver recruiting advertising, sign-on bonuses, background checks, greenlight hubs, etc? How much does it cost the sdc company for any of these things? Zero. There is a misconception that Uber has no vehicle costs. Uber drivers are paying retail for; the car, gas, insurance, maintenance. The self driving car company is paying fleet prices for all their cars, if not getting them at cost, for a company like GM Cruise. Uber still has to make it worthwhile for drivers to drive, so Uber is paying all the costs for the car - retail costs.
> 
> I don't see Uber surviving the transition to self driving. Every car company in the world is working on a self driving ride share service, along with every major tech company. When you remove the driver, Uber is starting from ground zero, they have no advantage over any other self driving car company.


I lost my phone in Robo Car an hour ago.
Can you bring ot back to me ?
NOW ! Or im calling police to report Robo Theft !



Mile HighMile645! said:


> *No. You misunderstand the numbers. Other than insurance, Uber does not pay any car costs.*
> 
> Uber is paying all car related costs in the 70 percent they have to pay to the driver in order operate the business. It's a very flawed business model because Uber is, in essence, paying retail for all their car related costs. The self driving taxi company will be making 100 percent of the fare paid by the passenger, or $2.15 per mile (in this scenario). The difference between making 64 cents a mile and making $2.15 a mile is where Uber is paying all car related costs.
> 
> *Well... no. However, you stated above that people will be paying 25¢ per mile for their future rides in SDC.*
> 
> No, I did not state that. The chart is showing what the total costs are to operate each form of transportation. So let's say the self driving car company charges 50 cents per mile, that's a 50 percent margin. A fifty percent margin is huge. There are many other companies with similar charts and similar numbers, some showing even lower costs.
> 
> "Our analysis later showed that the new business could do all that while saving people most of what they paid for trips in gas-powered, personally owned vehicles, costing them just 20 cents a mile on average compared with a 65-cent average for drives today. (Other studies have found similar costs and savings.) This didn't even count another 85 cents' worth per mile of productive time lost while driving, which they could use for other things while traveling as passengers."
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/late-to-the-driverless-revolution-1534520404
> 
> But the true savings is not just from eliminating the driver but from being able to tailor your fleet to the particular ride.
> 
> "Removing labor from the cost of driving only nets a 2X improvement. Yet when the person is gone, we can built a fleet. When we build a fleet, we can match the size of the battery to the trip that is needed. When we optimize size to rides, we realize that without a human driver, we deploy a one-person vehicle for most needs, at a fraction of the cost of a full sized sedan."
> 
> https://perspicacity.xyz/2017/06/07/will-you-hire-a-robot-to-be-your-chauffeur/
> 
> This is GM's EN-V prototype from 2011. The cost for GM to mass produce small cars like this would be around 5 to 6 thousand dollars each. This is likely how you'll get around in Manhattan and on the Las Vegas Strip and in most major cities' downtown in the not to distant future. Oh, and for you Segway haters, yes, these are Segways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS:
> Flying robot cars are already here as well.
> 
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/drone-taxis-are-taking-off-in-singapore.290748/
> 
> View attachment 269397


Ive ridden in Roomier BUMPER CARS at the Fair !
Probably Faster too


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn

tohunt4me said:


> I have seen.
> No imagination required.
> 
> I lost my phone in Robo Car an hour ago.
> Can you bring ot back to me ?
> NOW ! Or im calling police to report Robo Theft !
> 
> Ive ridden in Roomier BUMPER CARS at the Fair !
> Probably Faster too


Bumper cars are AWESOME!


----------



## goneubering

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> Bumper cars are AWESOME!


Yes!! Who has them? Waymo??!!


----------



## Workforfood

Mile HighMile645! said:


> What about Larry's Wall Street Journal article, was that acceptable?
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/late-to-the-driverless-revolution-1534520404
> 
> "Our analysis later showed that the new business could do all that while saving people most of what they paid for trips in gas-powered, personally owned vehicles, costing them just 20 cents a mile on average compared with a 65-cent average for drives today. (Other studies have found similar costs and savings.) This didn't even count another 85 cents' worth per mile of productive time lost while driving, which they could use for other things while traveling as passengers. If just 10% of driving were diverted to this model, the analysis suggested, it could save on the order of $150 billion a year in operating costs and about another $250 billion in lost driver productivity."
> 
> Would you accept an unnamed author from the economist?
> https://www.economist.com/special-report/2018/03/01/autonomous-vehicles-are-just-around-the-corner
> 
> How about Forbes? Surely Forbes is acceptable?
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannm...add-billions-to-its-bottom-line/#6a4f0ab03d28
> 
> "Ride-hailing companies like Uber lose money today, Ammann said, because most of the price consumers pay goes to the driver. Once you take the driver out of the equation, the cost per mile goes down dramatically, making ride-hailing way more affordable for consumers - and substantially more profitable for providers. The goal, Ammann said, is to reduce the cost per mile from the current $2.50 per mile to less than $1 per mile."


And Uber drives gross around $1.00 /mile. Something's wrong with the math somewhere?!!!


----------

