# If we’re employees, predict how it will be



## DRider85 (Nov 19, 2016)

Do you think we’ll have a weekly schedule and if we fail to come on time do we get fired? 

Will we make more money or less money?

Will very part timers have to quit?

Also how will we be employees if we can’t drive cuz of covid?


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

It =could= be like NY; only a certain amount of 'employees' are allowed to go online at certain times. Or you have to do a certain amount of trips to get time selection; I didn't really pay too much attn. Who knows how Uber will deal with Calif.

More money? A floor maybe, and maybe no ceiling. And some type of benefits or ability to get benefits. 

PTimers might get the shaft if they are only looking for full time ants. That would not be me. 

Last question a good one; I wonder too.


----------



## DRider85 (Nov 19, 2016)

SHalester said:


> It =could= be like NY; only a certain amount of 'employees' are allowed to go online at certain times. Or you have to do a certain amount of trips to get time selection; I didn't really pay too much attn. Who knows how Uber will deal with Calif.
> 
> More money? A floor maybe, and maybe no ceiling. And some type of benefits or ability to get benefits.
> 
> ...


What about not driving cuz of the virus?


----------



## ANT 7 (Oct 14, 2018)

You'll clear 1/2 of what you do now every week.

You'll have to take ALL THE SHIT the algo sends your way too.

It isn't worth it then.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

DRider85 said:


> What about not driving cuz of the virus?


I don't have an answer that isn't wild speculation. Oh, how silly, this forum is full of that.

If Uber filters who gets 'hired' =first= based on those who have been driving since March, well, many of us are screwed.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

It will require big changes to the algorithm. At the moment it only deals with routing drivers once they are on a trip. Now, though, the algorithm will also have to route drivers back to the hot zones after dropoff when a trip ends in a dead zone. But... cha-ching! ... the driver will have to be paid $.57 for _all_ miles driven while on shift. Plus minimum wage per hour. For those who become employees, according to my calculations, the pay will be around $25-30 per hour (in SF), less expenses.

My calculations estimate that Uberlyft will have to raise prices by around 50% just so that they can lose the same amount of money they have tended to lose over the last few quarters, without even going near any thought of profit. This will mean that there will be fewer pax and, unfortunately, fewer drivers required.

There won't be a weekly schedule - the demand shifts within rideshare are too great for a fixed, inflexible work schedule. Uber is much more likely to offer shifts via the app on a daily or ad-hoc basis.

Regarding Covid, it will be the same for other employees who are not working from home. If you want to work and get paid, work. If you don't, don't.


----------



## Uberguyken (May 10, 2020)

None of that will apply because Uber plans on shutting down in California for months...

Dara says to consider all the changes...

I say he's a Thug life pimp who knows California will fall to pieces with no ridesharing cars available.. and is playing the political game... Knowing it will be ugly for people who will in turn go off on the government for causing it....

You gotta give him props for his play...


----------



## Illini (Mar 14, 2019)

We'll all get company cars.


----------



## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

SHalester said:


> It =could= be like NY; only a certain amount of 'employees' are allowed to go online at certain times. Or you have to do a certain amount of trips to get time selection; I didn't really pay too much attn. Who knows how Uber will deal with Calif.
> 
> More money? A floor maybe, and maybe no ceiling. And some type of benefits or ability to get benefits.
> 
> ...


We will all be rich and promoted to management. Except those who won't.


----------



## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

ANT 7 said:


> You'll clear 1/2 of what you do now every week.
> 
> You'll have to take ALL THE SHIT the algo sends your way too.
> 
> It isn't worth it then.


You'd be paid at least 57.5 for every work related mile driven plus at least minimum wage.

There would definitely be limits on hours /shifts. There would probably be repercussions for declining pings.


----------



## mch (Nov 22, 2018)

First thing Im gonna do when I become an enoloyee is walk into Dara's office, put my feet up on his desk, light a cigar, and ask him for a fat raise.


----------



## Andrew Philip (Jul 20, 2017)

Boca Ratman said:


> You'd be paid at least 57.5 for every work related mile driven plus at least minimum wage.
> 
> There would definitely be limits on hours /shifts. There would probably be repercussions for declining pings.


And maybe only full time offered ? So part time drivers who liked this business model are screwed? I wonder how many drivers are going to lose their jobs because many drivers are part timers.


----------



## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Andrew Philip said:


> And maybe only full time offered ? So part time drivers who liked this business model are screwed? I wonder how many drivers are going to lose their jobs because many drives are part timers.


No, big companies like this love part timers. Why wouldn't they, full timers get benefits, sick pay, holiday pay.

Part timers get paid.


----------



## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

mch said:


> First thing Im gonna do when I become an enoloyee is walk into Dara's office, put my feet up on his desk, light a cigar, and ask him for a fat raise.


We want you to wear a body cam and share that footage...


----------



## nosurgenodrive (May 13, 2019)

DRider85 said:


> Do you think we'll have a weekly schedule and if we fail to come on time do we get fired?
> 
> Will we make more money or less money?
> 
> ...


We won't be employees. Both companies will cave in to the requirements that drivers demand to be classified as independent contractors. They won't be able to eat their cake and have it too.


----------



## Hornplayer (Jan 17, 2019)

nosurgenodrive said:


> Both companies will cave in to the requirements that drivers demand to be classified as independent contractors.


We're independent contractors now.

How will this change when Uberlyft starts obeying this judge's order?

If i go part-time, does that essentially mean I'm still an independent contractor, but with a cap on my weekly hours (since I have to stay part-time)? No benefits since I'm part-time? Set my own schedule and driving areas?


----------



## Road Hu$tle (Aug 12, 2020)

I will resign the moment I am made Uber's employee. I don't mind becoming Uber's employee as an Engineer. But as a driver, nope, not in a million years.


----------



## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

Drivers could go on line according to their flexible time and place. When driving time is over 40 hours a week, it becomes overtime and driving fares rate change to 1.5 times than normal fare. Per miles rate would still the same. Any full time drivers who have been driving over a certain years will be offered as full time employees and Uber/Lyft will have to offer employee benefits to them. Whoever got deactivated (full time or part time drivers) can apply UI for the loss of their jobs. 
Does that sound good?

Actually, In Asia, some production factories hire employees in this kind of scenario. Workers can come and work according to their flexible time and they get paid by working hours.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> Drivers could go on line according to their flexible time and place. When driving time is over 40 hours a week, it becomes overtime and driving fares rate change to 1.5 times than normal fare. Per miles rate would still the same. Any full time drivers who have been driving over a certain years will be offered as full time employees and Uber/Lyft will have to offer employee benefits to them. Whoever got deactivated (full time or part time drivers) can apply UI for the loss of their jobs.
> Does that sound good?


Sounds great! I would drive to Treasure Island (tiny island in the middle of San Francisco Bay; no pings) and sit for 8 hours. I would do no miles, get no pings and just collect my $15 per hour minimum wage.

But it won't be like that. Uberlyft will have to pay its drivers the $15 per hour, so they'll be sending out job assignments, not requests. Pings will no longer be optional and there won't be an "Accept" button. As employees, we'll have to go where Uberlyft tells us to go and pick up the pax that they say to pick up. Per mile rates will be the IRS $.575 mileage rate, but for all miles travelled on shift, not just those with pax on board. The separate per-minute rate will disappear; it will be replaced by the minimum hourly wage (In SF: $15 / 60 = 25 cents per minute). Again, this will be for every minute that the driver is on shift, not just for the minutes with pax on board.


----------



## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Sounds great! I would drive to Treasure Island (tiny island in the middle of San Francisco Bay; no pings) and sit for 8 hours. I would do no miles, get no pings and just collect my $15 per hour minimum wage.
> 
> But it won't be like that. Uberlyft will have to pay its drivers the $15 per hour, so they'll be sending out job assignments, not requests. Pings will no longer be optional and there won't be an "Accept" button. As employees, we'll have to go where Uberlyft tells us to go and pick up the pax that they say to pick up. Per mile rates will be the IRS $.575 mileage rate, but for all miles travelled on shift, not just those with pax on board. The separate per-minute rate will disappear; it will be replaced by the minimum hourly wage (In SF: $15 / 60 = 25 cents per minute). Again, this will be for every minute that the driver is on shift, not just for the minutes with pax on board.


Driving hours starts counting when you have accepted the ping and it stops when you have ended the ride. On line hours is not driving hours.

If per miles rate is disappear, who would drive with their own car, Or there will be no driver who would rent Uber/Lyft lease cars. 
There is two parts. One is human and one is vehicles. They got to pay for the driver's vehicle use for their business.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

Boca Ratman said:


> No, big companies like this love part timers. Why wouldn't they, full timers get benefits, sick pay, holiday pay.
> 
> Part timers get paid.


Yeah I think you are right on this... Big companies for some time now have looked at ways to make full time employee's part time employee's. For Uber and Lyft they already have a lot of part time ants.

And yes AB5 hacks who will now scream the opposite Uber/Lyft will have some full time drivers but nowhere near as many as they do now and yes you hacks if identified will be the first to go. You can't claim Uber/Lyft is evil then expect them to not be evil and petty and vindictive by keeping you on after all said and done! <snicker>


----------



## SleelWheels (Jun 25, 2019)

It'll be like this


----------



## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

i love how people say youll keep all your flexibility if youre employees, show me a single example of a job where you literally can log on 1 hour a month and are an employee. There is not one example of an on demand job where you work whenever you want where you are an employee.

Real world examples show that ab5 kills jobs. Bleacher report had many IC writers in ca making thousands writing when they want, they left CA bc of ab5 and all those writers lost their jobs, they have nothing, and thats whats going to happen with uber and lyft vote yes on prop 22.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

DRider85 said:


> Do you think we'll have a weekly schedule and if we fail to come on time do we get fired?
> 
> Will we make more money or less money?
> 
> ...


----------



## OldUncleDave (Apr 22, 2019)

SHalester said:


> It =could= be like NY; only a certain amount of 'employees' are allowed to go online at certain times. Or you have to do a certain amount of trips to get time selection; I didn't really pay too much attn. Who knows how Uber will deal with Calif.
> 
> More money? A floor maybe, and maybe no ceiling. And some type of benefits or ability to get benefits.
> 
> ...


I started gig employment with Instacart. As I remember, there were 2 tiers of drivers, the "better" drivers selected their hours on Sunday morning (7 days ahead), the others on Wednesday. Sounds good? Well, until the customers stopped using the service (seasonal). Then, there were no assigned hours available, all the customers wanted Sunday afternoon delivery, and you had 15 drivers sitting in one lot for hours waiting for a $5 order.

I moved to UBER because it was a 24 hours service with no assigned hours. I could earn what I wanted, less or more. Graveyards or 9-5 shifts. 3 days a week or 7/week.

I hear(read) people saying how UBER is cheating them, how they want $30/hour. Well people, UBER is a new concept with an unproven business model. For politicians to declare that this business model must not be allowed to exist ... well, I'll call it Communistic.

Let's not allow Henry Ford to build cars using an assembly line. Let's not allow Bill Gates to sell the Software for computers. Hell, Walt Disney wouldn't have created Mickey Mouse because his Studio wasn't owned by a Theater Chain!

This is the result of too many people being totally owned by the Government, obedient to politicians that have no clue about reality. Let the drivers choose it it's worth working RS or get another job. Let UBER fail or succeed on their terms.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> Driving hours starts counting when you have accepted the ping and it stops when you have ended the ride. On line hours is not driving hours.
> 
> If per miles rate is disappear, who would drive with their own car, Or there will be no driver who would rent Uber/Lyft lease cars.
> There is two parts. One is human and one is vehicles. They got to pay for the driver's vehicle use for their business.


No, remember we're talking here about how pay will be structured if/when we are employees, not as pseudo ICs. Forget about pay starting when there's a pax in the car and stopping when the pax exits the car - that won't apply when we're employees. As employees we will have to be paid from the start of our shift to the end of our shift. So if we are online for an 8 hour shift then we will be paid for 8 hours, regardless of whether or not there is a pax in the car. In SF this works out to a per-minute rate of 25 cents per minute, again, payable whether or not there is a pax in the car.

As employees, we will still be paid per mile in the form of mileage reimbursement, which is currently 57 cents per mile, but for all miles driven, not just for the miles with pax on board.

As you can see, the pay structure as an employee will be totally different from that as a pseudo IC.


----------



## stanigu (Dec 8, 2016)

Where U/L gets snagged is this requirement: "The person is free from the control and direction of the hiring entity in connection with the performance of the work, both under the contract for the performance of the work and in fact."

So U/L wouldn't be able to dictate what vehicles can be used. Nor can they set rates. On the flip side, they won't be able to provide any type of insurance. 

So I think it's either U/L truly become software company, and treats all drivers as IC (but reveal the make/model/year of the vehicle to the rider along with whatever rates set by the driver, along with the driver rating), or make everyone employees, pay at least the minimum wage and reimburse for the mileage--but commit drivers to certain hours at a certain location. They can certainly introduce some flexibility in accepting certain shifts, but they would be able to punish the drivers for non-compliance once the shift has been accepted but not "performed". Also they would get to keep any "surge" fees.

I think in the end, there would be some sort of a hybrid model where U/L drivers would be classified as statutory non-employees, where U/L get to control types of vehicles allowed on the platform, and the ability to kick out poor performing drivers, while the drivers maintain the freedom to accept or decline any ride as they please, without any negative repercussions from U/L, and set their own rates (as Uber has in certain markets).

All in all I think it would be positive development for the drivers.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

OldUncleDave said:


> I hear(read) people saying how UBER is cheating them, how they want $30/hour. Well people, UBER is a new concept with an unproven business model. For politicians to declare that this business model must not be allowed to exist ... well, I'll call it Communistic.


No, having the government stop business models that are illegal is not communist, lol. Bernie Madoff operated a great little business model that was a Ponzi scheme. The government declared that his business must not be allowed to exist... so it was shut down and no, it wasn't a case of the government being communist. It was shut down because the business practices of Madoff and his company were illegal.

The same goes for Uberlyft - compliance with the law is not optional. California says that it is illegal to misclassify employees as IC. Uberlyft now has the choice of complying with the law, quitting or being shut down.


> Let's not allow Henry Ford to build cars using an assembly line. Let's not allow Bill Gates to sell the Software for computers.


No, lol, there are no prohibitions on Ford building cars on an assembly line or on Microsoft selling software because neither building cars on an assembly line nor selling software are illegal. This seriously needs explaining?!? lol.


----------



## MikhailCA (Dec 8, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> but for all miles driven, not just for the miles with pax on board.


The miles for picking up the pax and with the pax on board. No one going to pay you 0.57 if you decide to cruise in the some rural area and no one wouldn't stop Uber from "sending you home" if it slow.
Who told you that you gonna work 8hours straight if you an employee? Who told you Uber will let you to work more than 20hours per week? Who told you that you gonna able to work hours what you want?
This AB5 smelled like a shit even in the good time, but for now it's the worst thing those dems can do for theirs voters, so gonna blame Trump for it as well right?


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

MikhailCA said:


> The miles for picking up the pax and with the pax on board. No one going to pay you 0.57 if you decide to cruise in the some rural area and no one wouldn't stop Uber from "sending you home" if it slow.


The law states that the employer must reimburse employees for all expenses, in this case expenses incurred by the driver. That's non-negotiable. However, what indeed if the employee driver decided to "pad" his mileage expense by taking the long way? This is a good question. However, Uber can easily solve this problem by instructing the driver to follow the Uber GPS route in the Uber app with no route deviations. After all, Uber will be able to instruct its employees what to do and how to do it.

As to your next question on Uber sending drivers home if it is slow, that is generally not a feature of employment contracts. Supermarkets don't send staff home "if it's slow". The local CVS doesn't send people home because it's slow. That's not the way jobs work. Employment lawyers would have a field day if UberLyft tried that.


> Who told you that you gonna work 8hours straight if you an employee?


I said "*if* we are online for an 8 hour shift". The word "if" denotes that it is an example or a "just suppose". :rollseyes:


> Who told you Uber will let you to work more than 20hours per week?


 Who told you that Uber will not let you work more than 20 hours per week? In any case, the hourly pay must be paid, in addition to mileage reimbursement for all miles driven.


> Who told you that you gonna able to work hours what you want?


I have not said that drivers will be able to work whichever hours they want.


> This AB5 smelled like a shit even in the good time, but for now it's the worst thing those dems can do for theirs voters, so gonna blame Trump for it as well right?


If you are asking if I blame Trump for AB5, the answer is no. He was not involved in either the drafting of AB5 nor voting on it in the California assembly. Remember, he is the President and is a member of the federal government, not the state government. No, Uberlyft have only themselves to blame for it. If they had not slashed rates by half over the last 6 years and treated their drivers like shit, things would never have come to this. If drivers in SF were still earning $1.50 per mile and 35 cents per minute, and if drivers in other cities had also kept their rates then AB5 would likely have never been necessary.


----------



## OldUncleDave (Apr 22, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> No, having the government stop business models that are illegal is not communist, lol. Bernie Madoff operated a great little business model that was a Ponzi scheme. The government declared that his business must not be allowed to exist... so it was shut down and no, it wasn't a case of the government being communist. It was shut down because the business practices of Madoff and his company were illegal.
> 
> The same goes for Uberlyft - compliance with the law is not optional. California says that it is illegal to misclassify employees as IC. Uberlyft now has the choice of complying with the law, quitting or being shut down.
> No, lol, there are no prohibitions on Ford building cars on an assembly line or on Microsoft selling software because neither building cars on an assembly line nor selling software are illegal. This seriously needs explaining?!? lol.


Who made the U/L business model illegal? They offered a contract, I accepted it. Madoff operated a Ponzi scheme, which is/was illegal since the 1900s.

I became aware of Independent Contractor laws in the 1970s. I managed an LA Times home delivery service. Some of the agencies classified drivers as (part time) employees, other agencies IC. As long as the ENTIRE agency was consistent, it was legal. There was a standard, boiled plate contract that was used by those IC agents.

Some of the differences between them were:
IC had no schedule work hours. They agreed to perform a certain task (deliver newspapers) with goals (by 6AM, less than 5 complaints per week). Employees started work at 2:30 AM, (which meant delivery was done by 4:30). They earned bonuses for better service, but firing them for poor performance was more difficult.

Both used there own vehicles. Turn over was high, because it was a 7 day/week job. But most drivers returned often. It was a quick and easy $500+/month job.

The State HATED the IC business model, even then. Those agencies were constantly audited by the California Tax Board, as were the drivers. Laws were passed and struck down by State and Federal courts.

BTW, these laws also targeted home businesses, like AVON and TUPPERWARE. Many of these companies were put out of business due to these targeted tax and employment laws.

You either like Government control of you dont. I don't. If I sign a contract, what business is it of yours, or the government, what the terms of the contract are? If there is no fraud involved, if I can leave the contract as I wish with no penalty, then let me live my life as I see fit


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

OldUncleDave said:


> Who made the U/L business model illegal?


Have a re-read of what I wrote. I did not say that Uberlyft's business model was illegal. I said that it is illegal to misclassify employees as IC in California. As a recap, doing so is illegal because AB5 made it so.


> I became aware of Independent Contractor laws in the 1970s. I managed an LA Times home delivery service. Some of the agencies classified drivers as (part time) employees, other agencies IC. As long as the ENTIRE agency was consistent, it was legal. There was a standard, boiled plate contract that was used by those IC agents.
> 
> Some of the differences between them were:
> IC had no schedule work hours. They agreed to perform a certain task (deliver newspapers) with goals (by 6AM, less than 5 complaints per week). Employees started work at 2:30 AM, (which meant delivery was done by 4:30). They earned bonuses for better service, but firing them for poor performance was more difficult.
> ...


And if this were the 1970s then maybe Uberlyft would get away with what they are doing. However, it's 2020, and AB5 was passed in 2019.


> You either like Government control of you dont. I don't. If I sign a contract, what business is it of yours, or the government, what the terms of the contract are? If there is no fraud involved, if I can leave the contract as I wish with no penalty, then let me live my life as I see fit


AB5 was passed by the State of California. It was passed because the contract you signed with Uber affected it. Employers must pay payroll taxes, unemployment contributions, workers' comp, etc etc to the state, however Uberlyft tried to skirt this responsibility to the State by trying to pretend that no employment was going on. Furthermore, California found itself paying for Medi-cal for rideshare workers who fell under the poverty earnings threshold and earned too little from Uberlyft to pay for their own health care.

Clearly, this plan to have the State pick up the tab and fill in the earnings gap for Uberlyft would be eventually doomed to failure. It goes way beyond anything related to just a contract signed between you and Uber. That's a poor - and pointless - attempt at oversimplifying the matter.


----------



## Illini (Mar 14, 2019)

Clearly, very few of us, if any, want to be Uber employees. However, we are currently not treated like ICs. Not even close.
Uber wants a new class of employment. I don't. I just want to be treated like an IC.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Supermarkets don't send staff home "if it's slow". The local CVS doesn't send people home because it's slow. That's not the way jobs work.


I've worked at grocery stores, bowling alleys, and restaurants. All of them sent employees home early if it was too slow.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

ariel5466 said:


> I've worked at grocery stores, bowling alleys, and restaurants. All of them sent employees home early if it was too slow.


Were you, by the same token, allowed to leave early if you chose to?


----------



## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

mch said:


> First thing Im gonna do when I become an enoloyee is walk into Dara's office, put my feet up on his desk, light a cigar, and ask him for a fat raise.


I don't know why anyone posted after this. Thread was over.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Wildgoose said:


> When driving time is over 40 hours a week,


just a little note. Companies that have hourly workers, generally the policy is you need prior authorization to work o/t. They'd pay you the first time, and then fire you the 2nd time you did with no au


----------



## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

SHalester said:


> just a little note. Companies that have hourly workers, generally the policy is you need prior authorization to work o/t. They'd pay you the first time, and then fire you the 2nd time you did with no au


I know, I am guessing that algorithm will automatically make a driver app OFF line when it closes to 40 hours for a week.


----------



## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Wildgoose said:


> I know, I am guessing that algorithm will automatically make a driver app OFF line when it closes to 40 hours for a week.


There will most likely be blocks or shifts that you would claim. You wouldn't be able to come close to 40 unless there is no alternative.

If I remember correctly, a few months back, maybe 8, didnt drivers in CA have a glitch where they were supposed to choose hours or something?

It was a "mistake" and did nothing. I had commented in a post at the time, this was Uber's way of warning drivers what will come if ab5 passes.

@SHalester do you remember this?


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Wildgoose said:


> Driving hours starts counting when you have accepted the ping and it stops when you have ended the ride. On line hours is not driving hours.
> 
> If per miles rate is disappear, who would drive with their own car, Or there will be no driver who would rent Uber/Lyft lease cars.
> There is two parts. One is human and one is vehicles. They got to pay for the driver's vehicle use for their business.


Not true in California.



Boca Ratman said:


> There will most likely be blocks or shifts that you would claim. You wouldn't be able to come close to 40 unless there is no alternative.
> 
> If I remember correctly, a few months back, maybe 8, didnt drivers in CA have a glitch where they were supposed to choose hours or something?
> 
> ...


Amazon does it this way.

They'll likely assign two or four hour blocks.

Once you accept a two hour block they MUST by law pay you at least one hour, even if they cancel the ride.

If they schedule you for four hours they MUST pay you for at least two hours before they can send you home.

If they schedule you for eight hours they MUST pay you for four hours before they can send you home.

The only exceptions are acts of God, threats to employees or the business and power or utility outages.

Uber will want just enough employees to cover their demand and keep those drivers busy. They won't be keeping drivers idle.

Before you drop off a passenger, you will recieve your next assignment.

Uber is not going to pay drivers to sit around.


----------



## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Wildgoose said:


> If per miles rate is disappear, who would drive with their own car, Or there will be no driver who would rent Uber/Lyft lease cars.
> There is two parts. One is human and one is vehicles. They got to pay for the driver's


You'd probably probably get 57.5 per mile, the irs standard/reimbursement amount.

What I see, is certain hours paying more per hour 12-2am for ex would be minimum wage plus $X per hour.

Uber would be free to charge whatever they want, and not have to tell drivers.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Boca Ratman said:


> You'd probably probably get 57.5 per mile, the irs standard/reimbursement amount.
> 
> What I see, is certain hours paying more per hour 12-2am for ex would be minimum wage plus $X per hour.
> 
> Uber would be free to charge whatever they want, and not have to tell drivers.


They'll have to pay drivers surge to attract them to nonpopular hours. Like it was before.

They charge what they want now, keep the higher amount and not tell the drivers, now.


----------



## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

observer said:


> They'll have to pay drivers surge to attract them to nonpopular hours. Like it was before.
> 
> They charge what they want now, keep the higher amount and not tell the drivers, now.


Well, we have access to that info and you guys in ca are on the 75/25 split.

I'm sure certain hours would be minimum wage, and other hours would come with a premium attached.

I wonder if they could get away with paying the tipped employee wages.. hmmm?

Its $2something here in FL.


----------



## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

I don't know if I have ever seen @observer this excited before! &#129395;&#127881;


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

doyousensehumor said:


> I don't know if I have ever seen @observer this excited before! &#129395;&#127881;


You must not frequent the politics forum.

:smiles:



Boca Ratman said:


> Well, we have access to that info and you guys in ca are on the 75/25 split.
> 
> I'm sure certain hours would be minimum wage, and other hours would come with a premium attached.
> 
> ...


Tips, in California, are on top of minimum wage.

They belong EXCLUSIVELY to the employee.


----------



## OldUncleDave (Apr 22, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Have a re-read of what I wrote. I did not say that Uberlyft's business model was illegal. I said that it is illegal to misclassify employees as IC in California. As a recap, doing so is illegal because AB5 made it so.
> And if this were the 1970s then maybe Uberlyft would get away with what they are doing. However, it's 2020, and AB5 was passed in 2019.
> AB5 was passed by the State of California. It was passed because the contract you signed with Uber affected it. Employers must pay payroll taxes, unemployment contributions, workers' comp, etc etc to the state, however Uberlyft tried to skirt this responsibility to the State by trying to pretend that no employment was going on. Furthermore, California found itself paying for Medi-cal for rideshare workers who fell under the poverty earnings threshold and earned too little from Uberlyft to pay for their own health care.
> 
> Clearly, this plan to have the State pick up the tab and fill in the earnings gap for Uberlyft would be eventually doomed to failure. It goes way beyond anything related to just a contract signed between you and Uber. That's a poor - and pointless - attempt at oversimplifying the matter.


What UBER/Lyft did wasn't illegal before AB5. It was common business practice. 
If the state chooses to take on the responsibility of MediCare, they shouldn't be complaining about how much it costs. Drivers who live under the poverty line would be receiving MediCare benefits whether or not the worked.
Unemployment Insurance? If IC s want to pay into it, they can collect it. So, UBER 's responsibility there is a wash.
So, let's talk compromise/solution.

UBER begins withholding Payroll taxes, etc. Now, before AB5 , this was the IC responsibility. But, California is spending so much money that they need it sooner than the end of year. So, UBER pays Quarterly to the state. This solves the state's solvency issue, and allows us to continue being IC.

of course, that's not the real issue, is it? The real issue is Union!! Those idiots that think that they'll get $30/hour working from home selling Time Shares! The political bosses that have found the Union donations dwindling.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

doyousensehumor said:


> I don't know if I have ever seen @observer this excited before! &#129395;&#127881;


BTW, I spent 20+ years as a supervisor, manager, general manager with around 350 employees. I've dealt with employee problems on a daily basis. I even represented my old company in front of the California Department of Labor three times and won the three cases.

I see a lot of misinformation posted on here. I try and clarify things as much as I can.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Illini said:


> Clearly, very few of us, if any, want to be Uber employees. However, we are currently not treated like ICs. Not even close.
> Uber wants a new class of employment. I don't. I just want to be treated like an IC.


That would be good, but Uber would never allow that. Genuine ICs can set their own prices with no restrictions, for a start. If this happened then the race-to-the-bottom drivers would start lowering prices until they got to 20 cents per mile. Uber would also have to give up all of its control over drivers, including firing them over ratings and perceived quality issues. They would also have to give up controlling cancellations, ping allocations, surges and incentives, accepted vehicles, free-of-charge wait times, en route stop policies etc etc. They would lose control of their business, handing it over to what would be hundreds of thousands of independent rideshare businesses. Never going to happen.



OldUncleDave said:


> What UBER/Lyft did wasn't illegal before AB5.


Correct, and now it is illegal.


> If the state chooses to take on the responsibility of MediCare, they shouldn't be complaining about how much it costs.


I have seen no complaints from California about how much providing health care costs. The complaint is that employers such as Uberlyft have not been paying into the system for the employees that they should have. AB5 corrects this.


> Drivers who live under the poverty line would be receiving MediCare benefits whether or not the worked.


The idea behind employing people is that a job will lift people above poverty. This is the reason why the minimum wage exists, as well as employment benefits.


> Unemployment Insurance? If IC s want to pay into it, they can collect it. So, UBER 's responsibility there is a wash.


IC can indeed contribute into plans of their choosing. However, Uberlyft drivers are not IC in California.


> of course, that's not the real issue, is it? The real issue is Union!! Those idiots that think that they'll get $30/hour working from home selling Time Shares! The political bosses that have found the Union donations dwindling.


Discussions about the timeshare industry or unions are out of the scope of AB5.


----------



## Illini (Mar 14, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> That would be good, but Uber would never allow that. Genuine ICs can set their own prices with no restrictions, for a start. If this happened then the race-to-the-bottom drivers would start lowering prices until they got to 20 cents per mile. Uber would also have to give up all of its control over drivers, including firing them over ratings and perceived quality issues. They would also have to give up controlling cancellations, ping allocations, surges and incentives, accepted vehicles, free-of-charge wait times, en route stop policies etc etc. They would lose control of their business, handing it over to what would be hundreds of thousands of independent rideshare businesses. Never going to happen.


I agree, but they're also dead if we all become employees. Their only hope is their new proposition, which won't make the lawmakers happy, nor will it add to the tax base. Bottom line is that their new proposal does very little for the drivers or the state. Even if the drivers are OK with it, CA (and other states to follow) won't let the drivers like it. As has been said many times over the past couple years, this model is dead without self-driving cars.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Were you, by the same token, allowed to leave early if you chose to?


Nope. Most (if not all) service industry jobs staff according to how business was the year before and taking into account any special events or holidays. If business turns out to be slower than expected, employees get sent home early. Otherwise, you have to finish your shift. It was like this everywhere I've worked. Maybe it's different in California, I know ya'll have way better labor laws.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Illini said:


> I agree, but they're also dead if we all become employees. Their only hope is their new proposition, which won't make the lawmakers happy, nor will it add to the tax base. Bottom line is that their new proposal does very little for the drivers or the state. Even if the drivers are OK with it, CA (and other states to follow) won't let the drivers like it. As has been said many times over the past couple years, this model is dead without self-driving cars.


Agreed, their new proposal was equivalent to just an extra 70 cents per hour for drivers, which Uber could just reverse at any point later by lowering driver rates and increasing their booking fee. There was no money offered for California so the offer won't have even remotely interested the state. The offer was a joke; I'm surprised Dara could make it and keep a straight face!

I think that rideshare is dead as it's currently run at the moment by Uber with the money it wastes on flying cars, helicopters, trophy offices etc etc. I think rideshare could work with drivers if the company was lean and run by people who were competent.



ariel5466 said:


> Nope. Most (if not all) service industry jobs staff according to how business was the year before and taking into account any special events or holidays. If business turns out to be slower than expected, employees get sent home early. Otherwise, you have to finish your shift. It was like this everywhere I've worked. Maybe it's different in California, I know ya'll have way better labor laws.


@observer knows labour law here - I think he said that the company has to pay half the agreed shift length if they send you home.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> @observer knows labour law here - I think he said that the company has to pay half the agreed shift length if they send you home.


Maybe in California. I don't think it's that way in most of the country. It definitely isn't like that in Virginia.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Agreed, their new proposal was equivalent to just an extra 70 cents per hour for drivers, which Uber could just reverse at any point later by lowering driver rates and increasing their booking fee. There was no money offered for California so the offer won't have even remotely interested the state. The offer was a joke; I'm surprised Dara could make it and keep a straight face!
> 
> I think that rideshare is dead as it's currently run at the moment by Uber with the money it wastes on flying cars, helicopters, trophy offices etc etc. I think rideshare could work with drivers if the company was lean and run by people who were competent.
> 
> ...


Yupp. Half the scheduled shift unless act of God, threat to employee or business, utility outage, I think there's one more but I don't remember what it was.


----------



## Westerner (Dec 22, 2016)

It will probably be like a taxi company. You will have a designated shift AND a designated driving area.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

ariel5466 said:


> Maybe in California. I don't think it's that way in most of the country. It definitely isn't like that in Virginia.


That's rough that a company can tell you to work and then tell you to go home. I'd never heard of that before. I'm not surprised, though - in areas such as labour protection and consumer protection, the US is way behind European countries. For example, if you buy an item in a store in the US, it could have a 30 day warranty and if it breaks on day 31 then you're SOL. In Europe, goods have to be of merchantable quality and defects have to be addressed up to six years after the date of puchase. You won't necessarily get a refund in full if something breaks after a couple of years, but there will be some redress.


----------



## Andrew Philip (Jul 20, 2017)

we will lose all of our flexibility. That bothers me because I do have a 9-5 job Monday to Friday now, but I would still love to drive for Uber whenever I wanted. As easy as a tap on the app to go online and work as long as I want. This is the greatest concern I have, because I like that about Uber. Go online on my own terms, meet people, and get paid. I have no clue what the app will be like when we are employees. But shifts? That won’t work for me and many. Can’t have a 9-5 job and be told be Uber to work 9-5 the same days I work at my main job. This is going to get UGLY.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

The Gift of Fish said:


> That's rough that a company can tell you to work and then tell you to go home. I'd never heard of that before. I'm not surprised, though - in areas such as labour protection and consumer protection, the US is way behind European countries. For example, if you buy an item in a store in the US, it could have a 30 day warranty and if it breaks on day 31 then you're SOL. In Europe, goods have to be of merchantable quality and defects have to be addressed up to six years after the date of puchase. You won't necessarily get a refund in full if something breaks after a couple of years, but there will be some redress.


Recently, in California, a new law was passed.

If you have to call in two hours before your shift, and they don't give you work you are considered having shown up to work and must be paid for half your scheduled shift.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> That's rough that a company can tell you to work and then tell you to go home. I'd never heard of that before. I'm not surprised, though - in areas such as labour protection and consumer protection, the US is way behind European countries. For example, if you buy an item in a store in the US, it could have a 30 day warranty and if it breaks on day 31 then you're SOL. In Europe, goods have to be of merchantable quality and defects have to be addressed up to six years after the date of puchase. You won't necessarily get a refund in full if something breaks after a couple of years, but there will be some redress.


When I was a server at a sports bar there were some days that were so slow, we'd come in, have maybe one or two tables, and then get cut. But we'd still have to do all our "outs" (cleaning and restocking your section, restocking expo, rolling silverware, among other things) before we could go. And the whole time we were getting paid $2.35/hour.

Virginia doesn't have any labor protections beyond what's mandated federally. Meaning that in Fairfax County, which has a very high cost-of-living that's rapidly increasing, minimum wage is still $7.25/hour in an area where it's nearly impossible to find anywhere to live under $1500/month.

I'm hoping that changes soon with a Democratic legislature and governor but they've had other priorities. The state has been rapidly turning from red to blue and a lot needs to be changed to have our laws align with what the majority of Virginians want.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Andrew Philip said:


> we will lose all of our flexibility. That bothers me because I do have a 9-5 job Monday to Friday now, but I would still love to drive for Uber whenever I wanted. As easy tap on the app to go online and work as long as I want. This is the greatest concern I have, because I like that about Uber. Go online on my own terms, meet people, and get paid. I have no clue what the app will be like when we are employees. But shifts? That won't work for me and many. Can't have a 9-5 job and be told be Uber to work 9-5 the same days I work at my main job. This is going to get UGLY.


The thing that I will miss is that, for me, there are three states of rideshare working. There's obviously (1) I am working and (2) I am not working, but there is also (3) Meh, yeah... maybe. Sometimes if I am lounging around at home watching Youtube or reading a book or something, I'll leave the app on. Most of the pings that come through will be dross - $4/$5 pings which I ignore. But if a decent airport run comes in (I live 50 miles away) then that'll tempt me to get up off my arse and do the ride. During period (3) periods of lounging around, I'm not really working and so I don't expect to be paid, but it's nice to have the possibility of a ride coming in.

Also included in period (3) is when I'm driving somewhere. I'll put the destination mode on and if I get a ping along the way then so much the better. It'll pay for my gas and maybe a sandwich and coffee.

So, for me, period (3) is a nice-to-have. It provides a few extra bucks. It's not essential, nor is it enough for me to not want AB5, but I will miss it when it's gone.


----------



## Illini (Mar 14, 2019)

FWIW, my wife works at a Target, and no matter how slow they are, they never send anyone home early. They can always find something for their employees to do.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

ariel5466 said:


> When I was a server at a sports bar there were some days that were so slow, we'd come in, have maybe one or two tables, and then get cut. But we'd still have to do all our "outs" (cleaning and restocking your section, restocking expo, rolling silverware, among other things) before we could go. And the whole time we were getting paid $2.35/hour.
> 
> Virginia doesn't have any labor protections beyond what's mandated federally. Meaning that in Fairfax County, which has a very high cost-of-living that's rapidly increasing, minimum wage is still $7.25/hour in an area where it's nearly impossible to find anywhere to live under $1500/month.
> 
> I'm hoping that changes soon with a Democratic legislature and governor but they've had other priorities. The state has been rapidly turning from red to blue and a lot needs to be changed to have our laws align with what the majority of Virginians want.


Wow, that's terrible.


----------



## OldUncleDave (Apr 22, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Correct, and now it is illegal.
> I have seen no complaints from California about how much providing health care costs. The complaint is that employers such as Uberlyft have not been paying into the system for the employees that they should have. AB5 corrects this.


But UberLyft WASN'T an employer! They were following the law, as written. The drivers weren't employees, therefore no MediCare contributions. So, let's declare the business model illegal!


The Gift of Fish said:


> The idea behind employing people is that a job will lift people above poverty. This is the reason why the minimum wage exists, as well as employment benefits.


Well, there's an interesting concept. If it were true, we would have no poverty because our minimum wage has increased from $1.75/hour in 1970 to $15/hour today. All work (and pay) will lift people out of poverty, whether or not they pay to the state for benefits. Why not allow them to negotiate how much they get?


----------



## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

DRider85 said:


> Do you think we'll have a weekly schedule and if we fail to come on time do we get fired?
> 
> Will we make more money or less money?
> 
> ...


If Cali forces me to become an employee of Uber then I'm DONEUBERING.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

goneubering said:


> If Cali forces me to become an employee of Uber then I'm DONEUBERING.


It takes an act of congress to change your username. You will always be @goneubering . :smiles:



OldUncleDave said:


> But UberLyft WASN'T an employer! They were following the law, as written. The drivers weren't employees, therefore no MediCare contributions. So, let's declare the business model illegal!
> 
> Well, there's an interesting concept. If it were true, we would have no poverty because our minimum wage has increased from $1.75/hour in 1970 to $15/hour today. All work (and pay) will lift people out of poverty, whether or not they pay to the state for benefits. Why not allow them to negotiate how much they get?


Actually, no.

There is no law that allowed Uber to operate as they did. They broke EVERY law they could.

They thought they could bribe their way until they got driverless cars.



OldUncleDave said:


> Well, there's an interesting concept. If it were true, we would have no poverty because our minimum wage has increased from $1.75/hour in 1970 to $15/hour today. All work (and pay) will lift people out of poverty, whether or not they pay to the state for benefits. Why not allow them to negotiate how much they get?


Minimum wage is 13 bux an hour state wide in California with the exception of a few cities.

You need to account for the cost of living today. Gas in the 70s was around .30 a gallon.



OldUncleDave said:


> But UberLyft WASN'T an employer! They were
> 
> Well, there's an interesting concept. If it were true, we would have no poverty because our minimum wage has increased from $1.75/hour in 1970 to $15/hour today. All work (and pay) will lift people out of poverty, whether or not they pay to the state for benefits. Why not allow them to negotiate how much they get?





OldUncleDave said:


> What UBER/Lyft did wasn't illegal before AB5. It was common business practice.


No, it wasn't a common business practice in most industries. Some industries started to see what they could get away with and they kept pushing and pushing the line.

You mentioned newspaper delivery, they were among the first to start classifying their drivers as independent contractors wayyyyy back.

Guess who is now covered by AB5?



OldUncleDave said:


> of course, that's not the real issue, is it? The real issue is Union!! Those idiots that think that they'll get $30/hour working from home selling Time Shares! The political bosses that have found the Union donations dwindling.


When I worked union in the mid 80s, fresh out of high school, I made ten bux an hour. My dues were 25 bux a month.

Minimum wage was 3.35 an hour.

Not a bad investment, was it?

Then there was the vacation pay, sick pay, holiday pay and medical benefits.

That's the problem today. Corporations have brainwashed workers in to thinking that unions are bad, Bad, BAD!!


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Boca Ratman said:


> @SHalester do you remember this?


I recall seeing the notes here, but it didn't accidentally 'roll' to me, so no direct info. About the only item I got by 'accident' for a day was the then new 'send thankyou for tip' feature. And then POOF it was gone the next day.


----------



## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

observer said:


> It takes an act of congress to change your username. You will always be @goneubering . :smiles:
> 
> 
> Actually, no.
> ...


Hahahaha!!


----------



## losiglow (Dec 4, 2018)

I hope U/L keep drivers in states that don't have their panties in a bunch as IC's. Which would be most of them sans the hardcore entitled lefty states.


----------



## rushbudgie (Nov 7, 2016)

My guess is F/T receive full benefits (hopeful) and P/T are a negotiable contract, ie choose one benefit over the other one. How the hours/shifts are given then F/T = 8 hours with breaks and P/T = 4 hours of our choice. 
My question is can we do other rideshares whilst doing Uber? We do now bec it's our perogitive. This is how Uber will destroy others by not allowing this, so my answer to that is do 4 hours on Uber then 4 hours of your choice of the other. Maybe I'm dreaming. Back to sleep now.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

rushbudgie said:


> My guess is F/T receive full benefits (hopeful) and P/T are a negotiable contract, ie choose one benefit over the other one. How the hours/shifts are given then F/T = 8 hours with breaks and P/T = 4 hours of our choice.
> My question is can we do other rideshares whilst doing Uber? We do now bec it's our perogitive. This is how Uber will destroy others by not allowing this, so my answer to that is do 4 hours on Uber then 4 hours of your choice of the other. Maybe I'm dreaming. Back to sleep now.


With the exception of medical benefits, all workers full and part time recieve the same benefits.


----------



## I will crack Lyft hacks (Aug 5, 2019)

OldUncleDave said:


> Who made the U/L business model illegal?


Who made unlicensed commercial transportation illegal?

Probably the transportation departments and city, state and federal regulations of the territories it attempts to operate it.
Who did you think made it illegal?

*German court bans Uber's ride-hailing services in Germany
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - A German courts banned Uber ride-hailing services in Germany, arguing the U.S. company lacks a necessary licence to offer passenger transport services using rental cars.

Uber Banned in Colombia in Blow to Gig Economy*








Colombia has ordered Uber to halt its ride-hailing operations in the Andean country in a decision that has sent shivers through technology players in Latin America.

*Uber's operating license in London not renewed in latest tussle between the city and the ride-hailing service*


----------



## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

Actually being an employee will be a blast, set the dest filter one mile down the road, get no pings watch tv and collect min wage..............


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

dnlbaboof said:


> Actually being an employee will be a blast, set the dest filter one mile down the road, get no pings watch tv and collect min wage..............


ahahahahahaha. What destination filter? As an employee that would be toast. Pings? Waz dat? Will be dispatch orders. Go and PU, or be fired. 
A lot of drivers will croak if they are to become supervised, which is the one of the MAIN items to deal with when your are an hourly employee.


----------



## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

For sure you will get some great dashcam material from Compton, Oakland and few other places . Uber driver with a 10% AR now will be going to Oakland 😀 jumpiness factor will be very high:biggrin:


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

losiglow said:


> I hope U/L keep drivers in states that don't have their panties in a bunch as IC's. Which would be most of them sans the hardcore entitled lefty states.


97% of Uber drivers quit every year, which means LOTS of Uber drivers have their panties in a bunch.


----------



## OG ant (Oct 11, 2019)

DRider85 said:


> Do you think we'll have a weekly schedule and if we fail to come on time do we get fired?
> 
> Will we make more money or less money?
> 
> ...


It'll be wonderful, paid vacation, medical coverage, no more false deactivations, its a huge win &#128079; uber takes a big advantage of drivers, no more!!!


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

1. Min wage while logged in
2. 100% acceptance is required
3. No logging into Uber/lyft at the same time to accept the first ping to arrive. They could tweak the software to not send pings unless your logged in With the app on top, in Un- minimized.
4. 58c a mile for any directed movements, or going to/carrying a passenger/delivery order.
5. The apps will kick you offline if business gets too slow. More than likely for at least an hour or two.
6. There will be times you can’t go online, how this is decided I have no idea. Rating? Rental program? Number of pings? All of the above?
7. Online time limits, you will be limited to X hours a week. How much X is I have no idea. It’s more in Uber’s interest to keep X lower.
8. Time between pings has to be paid, this is on call time and for it to be unpaid it would have to be hours between tasks, enough time to go home take a nap, a shower eat ect. Not just waiting for the next ping. This is another reason why 100% acceptance is needed.
9. Uber may issue company vehicles, they may be forced to in order to get enough wheelchair accessible vehicles on the road.

10. XL select and the other services will continue to pay better, if they don’t, those services will disappear because a Camry hybrid is just plain cheaper to operate than a Cadillac Escalade. If there’s no price advantage everyone is going to drive cheap fuel efficient vehicles.

11. Expect to get Notifications begging people to go online when they are short handed.

12. You may need to be on 4 different apps just to get enough hours.

15 on Uber 15 on lyft 10 on DD and 10 on grub hub. That’s 50 hours, still no insurance because your part time on all of them.

16. It’s cheaper to have 4 part timers then 1 full timer, due to saving money on benifits.


----------



## Woohaa (Jan 15, 2017)

Like Ritchie Pryor said "be home by 11."


----------



## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

it will be like amazon flex, 100k desperate drivers looking for about 2k slots. no health insurance since you'll work less than 30 hours, and the law states no obligation to provide part time workers with health care. At this point you'll be so broke you'll qualify for medicaid though, you'll get one shift every 2 weeks about 60 miles away for about 20 an hour (13 an hour plus mileage). You'll eat the miles there and back bc dest filter is gone.

Uber should just quit CA and focus on being profitable, raise the rates in other states and make the most driver friendly app ever. Roll out the changes they mad in CA everywhere(set your own fares/see destination) Move Uber corporate out of CA and work with republican governors to make uber a job where you can make 20 plus an hour easily with total independence, this can easily be done by raising the rates.

Vote yes on prop 22, sure beats driving 60 miles for one shift every 2 weeks, no health care benefit and making less than 20 an hour being forced to pick up 3.9 pools. Prop 22 gives us ............


*Guaranteed minimum earnings*
*30 cents per mile compensation toward expenses*
*Funding for new health benefits for drivers who work at least 15 hours a week*
*Medical and disability coverage for injuries and illnesses on the job*
*Protection against discrimination and sexual harassment*


----------



## Shawnla (Aug 15, 2020)

dnlbaboof said:


> i love how people say youll keep all your flexibility if youre employees, show me a single example of a job where you literally can log on 1 hour a month and are an employee. There is not one example of an on demand job where you work whenever you want where you are an employee.
> 
> Real world examples show that ab5 kills jobs. Bleacher report had many IC writers in ca making thousands writing when they want, they left CA bc of ab5 and all those writers lost their jobs, they have nothing, and thats whats going to happen with uber and lyft vote yes on prop 22.


You should vote no on prop 22. Uber and lyft couldnot take advantage .60 cent per miles



dnlbaboof said:


> it will be like amazon flex, 100k desperate drivers looking for about 2k slots. no health insurance since you'll work less than 30 hours, and the law states no obligation to provide part time workers with health care. At this point you'll be so broke you'll qualify for medicaid though, you'll get one shift every 2 weeks about 60 miles away for about 20 an hour (13 an hour plus mileage). You'll eat the miles there and back bc dest filter is gone.
> 
> Uber should just quit CA and focus on being profitable, raise the rates in other states and make the most driver friendly app ever. Roll out the changes they mad in CA everywhere(set your own fares/see destination) Move Uber corporate out of CA and work with republican governors to make uber a job where you can make 20 plus an hour easily with total independence, this can easily be done by raising the rates.
> 
> ...


----------



## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Great speculation in this thread, but I think at the end of the day only one thing can be said for sure...

Whatever the envelope is ... Uber's going to push it!


----------



## heyupal (Aug 12, 2020)

DRider85 said:


> Do you think we'll have a weekly schedule and if we fail to come on time do we get fired?
> 
> Will we make more money or less money?
> 
> Will very part timers have to quit?


I don't think there will be a schedule like regular employee jobs. More like pre booked shifts or blocks. First come first served. Maybe with priority booking for more consistent drivers, higher rated ones, and the like.

More money for currently low earning drivers, less money for high earners.

All guesswork of course.


----------



## Ubering4Beer (Mar 15, 2018)

DRider85 said:


> Do you think we'll have a weekly schedule and if we fail to come on time do we get fired?
> 
> Will we make more money or less money?
> 
> ...


Just guessing here but like any employer Uber would look to extract maximum value from their Drivers if forced to classify them as employees. And like any employer, Uber will play favorites depending on whatever factors allow for maximum value at minimal cost. Also, keep in mind that Uber is a 24/7 operation (think hospitals, hotels, etc.) and they have all the data they need to determine exactly when they require maximum coverage. Just a couple of predictions:

1.) Uber would hire some drivers full time but the majority of drivers will be hired part-time so as to not have to pay health benefits. Same as any run-of-the-mill retail operation.

2.) Drivers will be assigned shifts to ensure there are enough vehicles to service rides at peak times. Think some part time drivers required to work morning rush say Monday through Friday, 6am-10am, some required to work evening rush 4pm-8pm, and so on and so forth. Full timers may be required to service peak times (aka The Drunk Shifts) say Friday and Saturday nights until last call.

3.) Part timers will likely be paid minimum wage plus mileage reimbursement with no benefits such as health insurance, PTO, 401(k), etc. Full timers will probably earn a little more, say $17-$18/hr. plus mileage reimbursement and potentially some benefits such as a bare-bones health insurance plan, some PTO, and possibly the opportunity to invest in a 401(k). A quick search on Indeed for any type of "Driving" job supports this theory.

4.) Preference in hiring might be geographically dependent, meaning a driver who lives in San Francisco proper for example might have an advantage when being considered for a "job" servicing rides in SF. This is to limit mileage reimbursements and tolls.

Again, Uber would be forced to operate just like any other 24/7 operation. And with Covid decimating the economy and 40MM folks out of work I think there'd be no shortage of folks willing to sign up for $15/hr. to drive for 20 hours a week. Just my thoughts.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

DRider85 said:


> Do you think we'll have a weekly schedule and if we fail to come on time do we get fired?
> 
> Will we make more money or less money?
> 
> ...


----------



## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

Drivers will be paid Minimum wage
You can't just leave when you want..you work the shift assigned to you .if you don't they have a million waiting for their turn drivers in the background
Vacation/time off when Uber says ..not when you want to go

Bottom line - Uber Says and You do or they simply replace you with the next person waiting for their chance

Remember YOU the Driver asked for this .. You are the one costing UBer and investors money .. to think that UBer will treat you nice now is naive


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

dauction said:


> Drivers will be paid Minimum wage
> You can't just leave when you want..you work the shift assigned to you .if you don't they have a million waiting for their turn drivers in the background
> Vacation/time off when Uber says ..not when you want to go
> 
> ...


Uber does that now.

When was the last time Uber was nice to drivers?


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Andrew Philip said:


> And maybe only full time offered ? So part time drivers who liked this business model are screwed? I wonder how many drivers are going to lose their jobs because many drivers are part timers.


Not likely. Full time employee benefits are much more expensive than part time employee benefits. Most likely we will be part time, minimum wage employees. Not a profitable scenario for drivers in good markets who know how to properly use the gig apps.



observer said:


> With the exception of medical benefits, all workers full and part time recieve the same benefits.


I used to work 40 to 60 hours per week for a company in CA. My only benefits were 3 paid days off per year, health insurance that cost me over $600 per month, worker's comp and unemployment insurance. I no longer want to be an employee.


----------



## Ubering4Beer (Mar 15, 2018)

Judge and Jury said:


> Not likely. Full time employee benefits are much more expensive than part time employee benefits. Most likely we will be part time, minimum wage employees. Not a profitable scenario for drivers in good markets who know how to properly use the gig apps.


IMHO they'd have to hire at least some full-time drivers. I think it'd be really hard to find anyone willing to work part-time who would commit to working big events, Drunk Shifts, weekends, etc. if they were only offering minimum wage and mileage reimbursement with no benefits and more importantly no Surge.

They'd have to hire at least some full-timers to cover conferences, sporting events, concerts & festivals, etc. They'd prolly be paid a little more, say $17-$18 an hour plus some benefits like a catastrophic health plan, some PTO, and maybe the ability to invest in a 401(k) (with no company match, of course) but the trade-off would be a set schedule. Say Wednesday through Sunday 8pm - 4am.

Like most posters have mentioned drivers will be expected to cover ALL rides. For me the question is what's Uber's plan to ensure drivers can find their assigned riders after big events. For SF drivers for example, picking up after Giants games at Oracle Park can be an absolute clusterf*ck, I wonder how they're going to ensure drivers can find the correct rider.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Judge and Jury said:


> Not likely. Full time employee benefits are much more expensive than part time employee benefits. Most likely we will be part time, minimum wage employees. Not a profitable scenario for drivers in good markets who know how to properly use the gig apps.
> 
> 
> I used to work 40 to 60 hours per week for a company in CA. My only benefits were 3 paid days off per year, health insurance that cost me over $600 per month, worker's comp and unemployment insurance. I no longer want to be an employee.


Besides medical, name any other benefit a full timer gets that a part time employee doesn't get.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

observer said:


> Besides medical, name any other benefit a full timer gets that a part time employee doesn't get.


PTO, 401K, off the top of my head.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

ariel5466 said:


> PTO, 401K, off the top of my head.


In California all employees, full and part time, get 3 paid days per year depending on hours worked. I don't remember exactly how the amount works but it's something like 1 hour for every 30 hours worked up to 24 hours per year.

Employers can't ask what you need the time off for, they have to give it to you regardless of why you need.

I seem to remember that they were trying to increase it to five days.

401Ks aren't a requirement neither is vacation pay or holiday pay.


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

observer said:


> Besides medical, name any other benefit a full timer gets that a part time employee doesn't get.





ariel5466 said:


> PTO, 401K, off the top of my head.


Depending on the state and company, part timers get both (all that is listed), esp in CA.



observer said:


> 1 hour for every 30 hours worked


This is sick hours.


----------



## Ubering4Beer (Mar 15, 2018)

ariel5466 said:


> PTO, 401K, off the top of my head.


Of course this is city/state dependent. In San Francisco employers are required by law to provide sick time to part-time employees, 1 hour of sick leave for every 30 hours worked up to a maximum of 72 hours per year. They can, however, require a medical evaluation for any sick leave lasting more than 24 hours.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Depending on the state and company, part timers get both (all that is listed), esp in CA.
> 
> This is sick hours.


It is sick hours, but they can be used for anything and the employer can't ask if you're sick.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

observer said:


> In California all employees, full and part time, get 3 paid days per year depending on hours worked. I don't remember exactly how the amount works but it's something like 1 hour for every 30 hours worked up to 24 hours per year.
> 
> Employers can't ask what you need the time off for, they have to give it to you regardless of why you need.
> 
> ...





sellkatsell44 said:


> Depending on the state and company, part timers get both (all that is listed), esp in CA.
> 
> This is sick hours.





Ubering4Beer said:


> Of course this is city/state dependent. In San Francisco employers are required by law to provide sick time to part-time employees, 1 hour of sick leave for every 30 hours worked up to a maximum of 72 hours per year. They can, however, require a medical evaluation for any sick leave lasting more than 24 hours.


You Californians and your good labor laws! Hopefully someday the rest of the country will catch up.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Ubering4Beer said:


> Of course this is city/state dependent. In San Francisco employers are required by law to provide sick time to part-time employees, 1 hour of sick leave for every 30 hours worked up to a maximum of 72 hours per year. They can, however, require a medical evaluation for any sick leave lasting more than 24 hours.


That's probly because only 24 are state mandated. Those 24 don't need to be used for sickness.

You also lose them if you don't use them. They don't roll over.



ariel5466 said:


> You Californians and your good labor laws! Hopefully someday the rest of the country will catch up.


A lot of people knock us for those same ANTI-BUSINESS laws. 

It looks like the sick pay law was updated in 2017.

I don't think I've worked more than a couple months at any one job since then.

The use it or lose it law now appears to allow the company to let you accrue up to 48 hours and then cap it but it's still only 24 hours per year.


----------



## LyftUberFuwabolewa (Feb 7, 2019)

Wait wait. I have a better one. What would it be like if we were all Cinderella and at midnight our cars turned into pumpkins? And we only had one glass slipper.


----------



## Reynob Moore (Feb 17, 2017)

You will go from cab driver to sex worker.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Reynob Moore said:


> You will go from cab driver to sex worker.


no no no...

cab drivers are PIMPS...


----------



## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

The Gift of Fish said:


> It will require big changes to the algorithm. At the moment it only deals with routing drivers once they are on a trip. Now, though, the algorithm will also have to route drivers back to the hot zones after dropoff when a trip ends in a dead zone. But... cha-ching! ... the driver will have to be paid $.57 for _all_ miles driven while on shift. Plus minimum wage per hour.


As an employee Uber will be able to control your _per hour_ earnings. Forget all that driving around for $.57/mile business. Look forward to $10 per hour.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Coachman said:


> Look forward to $10 per hour.


...calif min wage is $13 per hour.....SF county is like $16.07 per.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Coachman said:


> As an employee Uber will be able to control your _per hour_ earnings. Forget all that driving around for $.57/mile business. Look forward to $10 per hour.


No, in SF the minimum wage is $16.07 per hour. Plus they would have to reimburse for all miles driven; the rate for this would have to be agreed with the driver employees.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> the rate for this would have to be agreed with the driver employees.


Wut? as employees we have no say. Most, if not all, companies pay the IRS rate for mileage reimbursement. AB5 might make us employees, but does not create a union to 'negotiate' with U/L et al.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SHalester said:


> Wut? as employees we have no say. Most, if not all, companies pay the IRS rate for mileage reimbursement. AB5 might make us employees, but does not create a union to 'negotiate' with U/L et al.


I'm not sure why you mention unions; they have nothing to do with this.

In Gatusso vs. Harte-Hanks Shoppers Inc, the judges ruled: _"We agree that, as with other terms and conditions of employment, a mileage rate for automobile expense reimbursement may be a subject of negotiation and agreement between employer and employee."_

Uber would not be able to unilaterally set an arbitrary and typically Uber-esque mileage allowance of, say, 10c per mile without running the risk of yet more legal action against it. Uber must by law fully compensate drivers for mileage expenses.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> they have nothing to do with this.


did you read your note? As employees there is no negotiating on any rate, rule or reimbursement. We would be employees only. Employer makes every single decision (for us, don't you know).


The Gift of Fish said:


> the rate for this would have to be agreed with the driver employees.


 There it is again, just in case. Employees DO, employers INSTRUCT. For tone, balance and accuracy. Only a union has 'powers' to negotiate on employees' behalf. And that ain't happening anytime soon (or ever).


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SHalester said:


> did you read your note? As employees there is no negotiating on any rate, rule or reimbursement. We would be employees only. Employer makes every single decision (for us, don't you know).
> 
> There it is again, just in case. Employees DO, employers INSTRUCT. For tone, balance and accuracy. Only a union has 'powers' to negotiate on employees' behalf. And that ain't happening anytime soon (or ever).


No, the law is clear - the employee must be compensated in full for all expenses. If employers try to pay a mileage amount below the actual expense amounts incurred by employees then they are breaking the law. The judges in the above (binding, precedent-setting) ruling said that the mileage rate may be a subject of negotiation and agreement between employer and employee. If you disagree with the judges' ruling then there isn't much you can do, I'm afraid - the matter has already reached and been judged in the Supreme Court. There's no point in you trying to argue the point with me - this was the court's decision, not mine.

When you say, "employers instruct; employees do", remember that all employers must operate within the confines of the law. Just because the employer is the one who pays the wages, it doesn't mean that they can do whatever they want. Uberlyft made this very same mistake, and now they are being shown that they are very much mistaken.

Finally, again, unions are irrelevant to this discussion.


----------



## OG ant (Oct 11, 2019)

ANT 7 said:


> You'll clear 1/2 of what you do now every week.
> 
> You'll have to take ALL THE SHIT the algo sends your way too.
> 
> It isn't worth it then.


ITS ALREADY LIKE THAT


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

The fact that both of your avatars are near gray makes it more difficult to watch the volley back and forth.

also not everyone is in sf. I suppose they'll base that on where your home address is? Or would it be the market you drive in?


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

SHalester said:


> did you read your note? As employees there is no negotiating on any rate, rule or reimbursement. We would be employees only. Employer makes every single decision (for us, don't you know).


And all that for $15, oh wait $16 in San Francisco and .30 a mile!


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> The fact that both of your avatars are near gray makes it more difficult to watch the volley back and forth.


It's very easy to tell us apart - my posts are the ones that contain content that is correct!



Fusion_LUser said:


> And all that for $15, oh wait $16 in San Francisco and .30 a mile!


I normally do 30 miles each hour while working. Plus the $16 per hour minimum wage - that's $24/hour total. Plus possibly health insurance, and paid time off, paid breaks, unemployment and disability. Not bad for an unskilled job. I'll take it!



sellkatsell44 said:


> also not everyone is in sf. I suppose they'll base that on where your home address is? Or would it be the market you drive in?


Indeed, there are drivers who do _not_ live in San Francisco. I doubt that the applicable minimum pay rate is based on where the driver lives. I would assume that it is based on where the work is performed, although that would be a question for @observer.


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

The Gift of Fish said:


> It's very easy to tell us apart - my posts are the ones that contain content that is correct!


I think the fact that you self identify as 98 helps him w/the swallow 


The Gift of Fish said:


> Indeed, there are drivers who do _not_ live in San Francisco. I doubt that the applicable minimum pay rate is based on where the driver lives. I would assume that it is based on where the work is performed, although that would be a question for @observer.


it would be interesting though. When I go to Texas for work, or Arizona, my pay is no different. When I go to Napa, or San Jose, I'm still paid my base rate which is based on my office being in sf.

perhaps the drivers can drive wherever but will have to pick a home base. And I'm guessing they'll limit the home base to prevent all the drivers from picking the highest minimum wage county, if this goes through.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I normally do 30 miles each hour while working. Plus the $16 per hour minimum wage - that's $24/hour total. Not bad for an unskilled job. I''ll take it!


What's your AR? What's your cancellation rate? When was the last time you did a Wal*Mart pickup? Do any late night pickups in Hunters Point? (Sorry I haven't lived in SF for 24 years now for all I know Hunters Point is a gentrified place where they shoot Old Navy commercials.)

Are you ready to accept each and every ride thrown your way for $24 an hour?


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

Fusion_LUser said:


> Hunters Point is a gentrified place


Not really. It's trying to get there but it's still pretty hood (for sf anyways). It's definitely not as gentrified as Fillmore is. Though we're only talking about Geary to California and not Geary towards whatever street is way down there in lower Fillmore, that's still a bit hood too.

eta, I dunno about you and the last time you actually went to hunters point but I worked with a nonprofit (project wreckless) down there so I've actually been to hunters point (this was just a year ago) and this place specifically targets at risk youth.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Fusion_LUser said:


> What's your AR? What's your cancellation rate? When was the last time you did a Wal*Mart pickup? Do any late night pickups in Hunters Point? (Sorry I haven't lived in SF for 24 years now for all I know Hunters Point is a gentrified place where they shoot Old Navy commercials.)
> 
> Are you ready to accept each and every ride thrown your way for $24 an hour?


I only work during the daytime; life's too short to deal with the late night drunks. I don't generally have problems working during the day. There are a few ride denials where pax do not pass their curbside inspection - underage pax, five-in-a-Camry specialists, rude pax etc. These will continue to be denied service. I don't foresee many issues.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Fusion_LUser said:


> Are you ready to accept each and every ride thrown your way for $24 an hour?


that won't be the rate we are paid if we suddenly become employees. I'm all for our rate be determined by the location of the main Uber HQ bldg; that would be SF with the higher minimum wage. More likely will be the location of the 'assigned' service area.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

SHalester said:


> that won't be the rate we are paid if we suddenly become employees. I'm all for our rate be determined by the location of the main Uber HQ bldg; that would be SF with the higher minimum wage. More likely will be the location of the 'assigned' service area.


And where is it written that our rates will be determined by location? From what I've seen (and I'll be honest I haven't read the fine print) that employee ants will get minimum wage plus a laughable amount for miles. I have not seen anything where there is a base pay rate and if you are in an area where you can do $50 or more an hour then you get that as well.

Plus have you considered how much will be deducted from you pay? You said $24 earlier but you do know you will not take that home, right?



The Gift of Fish said:


> I only work during the daytime; life's too short to deal with the late night drunks. I don't generally have problems working during the day. There are a few ride denials where pax do not pass their curbside inspection - underage pax, five-in-a-Camry specialists, rude pax etc. These will continue to be denied service. I don't foresee many issues.


Well I agree with you on the late night drunks... I won't drive them as well. But I think its foolish to think as employee's you will get to pick and choose who you drive. And what makes you so sure you will be able to drive days? You are not the only one who likes to drive during the day so buy some sleep masks as well so you can be fully away for that 2-4AM shift you get assigned in Oakland!


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Fusion_LUser said:


> And where is it written that our rates will be determined by location?


duh, it isn't. THAT will be decided by U/L. One of the many things TBD. Which will also require a shutdown to figure it out. AB5 certainly won't be of any help there. 
right this second rates are determined by 'market area', so why not with hourly 'rates'? Open questions and only wild speculation. huh.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Fusion_LUser said:


> Well I agree with you on the late night drunks... I won't drive them as well. But I think its foolish to think as employee's you will get to pick and choose who you drive.


I didn't say that I expect to pick and choose who to drive. Pax who display unacceptable behaviour are not tolerated by me, and they will not be in the future, either. Not that it matters, but Uber's policy is that pax whose behaviour is unacceptable are not eligible for transport, and I doubt that this policy will change once we're employees.


> And what makes you so sure you will be able to drive days?


At no point have I said that I am sure that I will be able to drive days. Not sure what's going on with you today - normally you are able to read and digest what the other person has said. Feeling a bit peaky today, perhaps?


> You are not the only one who likes to drive during the day so buy some sleep masks as well so you can be fully away for that 2-4AM shift you get assigned in Oakland!


Again, as I said, I don't drive nights.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I didn't say that I expect to pick and choose who to drive. Pax who display unacceptable behaviour are not tolerated by me, and they will not be in the future, either. Not that it matters, but Uber's policy is that pax whose behaviour is unacceptable are not eligible for transport, and I doubt that this policy will change once we're employees.


Nice spin. I'm sure Uber and especially Lyft will be totally thumbs up on employee ants not accepting rides and they totally will be OK with employee ants telling them when they will work, where they work as well. But that is all part of the fantasy of minimum wage earning ants while still getting to act as if you are an IC!

Oh and when you one of those minimum wage earning ants you will drive the 2-4AM shift when Uber and Lyft tells you that is your shift.



SHalester said:


> duh, it isn't. THAT will be decided by U/L. One of the many things TBD. Which will also require a shutdown to figure it out. AB5 certainly won't be of any help there.
> right this second rates are determined by 'market area', so why not with hourly 'rates'? Open questions and only wild speculation. huh.


It's not written because it won't happen. Plenty of ants who are giddy with $15 before taxes so that will be the pay.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Fusion_LUser said:


> Nice spin. I'm sure Uber and especially Lyft will be totally thumbs up on employee ants not accepting rides and they totally will be OK with employee ants telling them when they will work, where they work as well.


I said nothing about not accepting rides. There's probably no point in continuing this if you're just going to keep trying to say things that I haven't said. I don't see why people do that, to be honest.


> Oh and when you one of those minimum wage earning ants you will drive the 2-4AM shift when Uber and Lyft tells you that is your shift.


No, again, I don't work nights. And again, I can't see a lot of point in repeating the same thing.

It seems you're hazy on Uber's policy for pax. I include the excerpt below so you can have a quick brush-up on the policy. Uber does not expect drivers to pick up pax who engage in any of the behaviour below. Whether we are IC or drivers, I don't pick up pax who display abusive or disrespectful behaviour.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Fusion_LUser said:


> It's not written because it won't happen


Explain that? Won't happen because? How exactly would u know?


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

The Gift of Fish said:


> It's very easy to tell us apart - my posts are the ones that contain content that is correct!
> 
> 
> I normally do 30 miles each hour while working. Plus the $16 per hour minimum wage - that's $24/hour total. Plus possibly health insurance, and paid time off, paid breaks, unemployment and disability. Not bad for an unskilled job. I'll take it!
> ...


From what I understand, what happens in SF, stays in SF.

If you work in SF you must be paid the higher minimum wage. Doesn't matter where you live.

https://sfgov.org/olse/minimum-wage-ordinance-mwo
How that changes if you pick up a fare in SF and go to the East Bay, no idea. I would imagine at least the part of ride in SF would be the higher rate although other cities up there also have higher minimum wages.

When I worked in the Bay Area it wasn't much of a problem since anyone that worked at the 3 locations made more than the minimum.


----------



## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

SHalester said:


> ...calif min wage is $13 per hour.....SF county is like $16.07 per.


That'll be before your expenses.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Coachman said:


> That'll be before your expenses.


No, expenses are reimbursed separately.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

SHalester said:


> Explain that? Won't happen because? How exactly would u know?


Well for starters Lyft said so directly in their scare letter...










Lyft says a lot of BS but when it comes to money and screwing the ants do you think Lyft will not follow through on this?

Uber has been silent on this but it makes sense they would do the same. I would bet that they would long before I would bet that they won't limit pay.


----------



## Road Hu$tle (Aug 12, 2020)

Uber will have record number of employees, more than the biggest companies out there lol.

Uber will have record number of employees, more than the biggest companies out there lol.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I said nothing about not accepting rides. There's probably no point in continuing this if you're just going to keep trying to say things that I haven't said. I don't see why people do that, to be honest.


Well of course there is no point in continuing. You're trying to sell minimum wage before deductions and .30 a mile as a win for all and its not working.



The Gift of Fish said:


> View attachment 499423


Yeah be sure to keep that handy for all the new ants who join UP pissed off as ever because they got deactivated by "unruly" pax. Tell them that's not how it works and if they were an employee they would never get deactivated.


----------



## Mkang14 (Jun 29, 2019)

ariel5466 said:


> You Californians and your good labor laws! Hopefully someday the rest of the country will catch up.


This might be the only nice thing a non Californian has said about us.

Thank you.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

Mkang14 said:


> This might be the only nice thing a non Californian has said about us.
> 
> Thank you.
> View attachment 499464


I love California. I have family in the Bay Area and would love to live there. But the cost-of-living is just too high. I looked into places like Arcata but there's another obstacle. Whenever I ask Mr.ariel5466 about moving there, he says "over my dead body."


----------



## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Mkang14 said:


> This might be the only nice thing a non Californian has said about us.


I like San Francisco.

Unpopular opinion. &#128517;


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Fusion_LUser said:


> Well of course there is no point in continuing. You're trying to sell minimum wage before deductions and .30 a mile as a win for all and its not working.


Lol, I'm not selling anything. If you want to continue working for Uber after AB5 then do. If you don't then don't.


> Yeah be sure to keep that handy for all the new ants who join UP pissed off as ever because they got deactivated by "unruly" pax. Tell them that's not how it works and if they were an employee they would never get deactivated.


False reporting by pax is a different discussion entirely. You do seem to be having trouble staying on topic today. I think maybe you are indeed feeling a little peaky.



waldowainthrop said:


> I like San Francisco.


&#129335;‍♂


----------



## Road Hu$tle (Aug 12, 2020)

ariel5466 said:


> I love California. I have family in the Bay Area and would love to live there. But the cost-of-living is just too high. I looked into places like Arcata but there's another obstacle. Whenever I ask Mr.ariel5466 about moving there, he says "over my dead body."


I bet Mr. Ariel5466 will change his mind if both of you end up with $100,000 jobs. Westcoast pays &#128176;&#128176;&#128176;


----------



## Mkang14 (Jun 29, 2019)

Road Hu$tle said:


> I bet Mr. Ariel5466 will change his mind if both of you end up with $100,000 jobs. Westcoast pays &#128176;&#128176;&#128176;


$200,000 = Barely Middle Class &#129335;‍♀


----------



## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Road Hu$tle said:


> $100,000 jobs.


Some of those jobs are mostly remote now. The real money play is to get a job that pays that well and then live for dirt cheap in the Colorado mountains or the Utah badlands. Not easy, but still possible.


----------



## ariel5466 (May 16, 2019)

Road Hu$tle said:


> I bet Mr. Ariel5466 will change his mind if both of you end up with $100,000 jobs. Westcoast pays &#128176;&#128176;&#128176;


He would never look for a job out there. He lived in Redding once and hated it so now he hates all of Cali, even though he obviously loves it when we visit my family out there. &#129335;‍♀ I love him to death but he can be a real stubborn bastard. &#129315;



Mkang14 said:


> $200,000 = Barely Middle Class &#129335;‍♀


Yes, and there's also that.


----------



## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

https://dorothealange.museumca.org/section/the-new-california/


----------



## Road Hu$tle (Aug 12, 2020)

But you gotta admit it, CA is BEAUTIFUL! National parks, beaches and mountains all over the place.


----------



## Mkang14 (Jun 29, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> Some of those jobs are mostly remote now. The real money play is to get a job that pays that well and then live for dirt cheap in the Colorado mountains or the Utah badlands. Not easy, but still possible.


Kinda my situation now. Bought a nice new build, nice area,, on the outskirts of bay area and my job. I paid $425,000 after a bunch of upgrades. The house is almost exactly double the square foot of my dads garbage San Jose rental homes (which are close to $1 million dollars each and built in the 70s).

Now I've been wfh since end of Feb and announced to be wfh at least another 11 months. Same with hubby who works at FB.

Couldn't have worked out better. So need to make the most of the next year.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

Mkang14 said:


> $200,000 = Barely Middle Class &#129335;‍♀


Outside of the some parts of the Bay Area and LA $200k is middle class these days if you want to have a decent home and enough left over to pay for the little things which is pretty sad because even at that amount there are still many people who are living paycheck to paycheck.

I can't pinpoint right now when this all changed but there was a time when you traditionally had only one wage earner in a family and you could still have a home, a car and put the kids through college. These days its Dad, Mom, Aunt Betsy and the dog who are working.

But AB5 will fix all this for us ants. Once we are all employee ants....










That's when the big bucks start roll'n in!


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> Some of those jobs are mostly remote now. The real money play is to get a job that pays that well and then live for dirt cheap in the Colorado mountains or the Utah badlands. Not easy, but still possible.


A friend who works @ a tech firm, codes, was considering this. He would take a pay cut 30% that bumps him down to roughly $130k? Still very good and remote.

People can make a living out here. you either have to have a bunch of $$$ or be savvy and know pple. At least for us, we look out for each other (Asians). Some pple rather take very low in rent or rent free for people we know and trust (still salty but in a loving way for the coworker that gets his APARTMENT on Polk near the bars and nightlife for free).

save where you can to spend where you want :smiles:

but mostly it's about relationships and genuine friendships.



Fusion_LUser said:


> many people who are living paycheck to paycheck.


This was me when I was fresh out of high school and that was working non-minimum wage jobs (bxn $15-35/hr) but I did party/travel a lot &#128584;&#128584;


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I only work during the daytime; life's too short to deal with the late night drunks. I don't generally have problems working during the day. There are a few ride denials where pax do not pass their curbside inspection - underage pax, five-in-a-Camry specialists, rude pax etc. These will continue to be denied service. I don't foresee many issues.


Employees can decide to deny service based on their subjective opinions? Sure, in the short term. Eventually you will be fired.


----------



## Road Hu$tle (Aug 12, 2020)

CA needs to tweak its politics a little bit. It has immense resources, and above all, it has 40 million people. A few tweaks and it will do wonders. They need a few Manhattans to stuff people in. A Manhattan in Gilroy and fast train next to it won't hurt.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> Employees can decide to deny service based on their subjective opinions? Sure, in the short term. Eventually you will be fired.


There are lots of employees who will willingly be doormats to customers because they are afraid. Maybe it's because they lack dignity or self respect. If you prefer to bow down to abusive pax then that's fine with me, but I don't do that. I will not tolerate customers being rude to me, just because they are paying a few dollars for a ride. If that ever meant that I got fired from this job then so be it.

As I said, how willing you are, or evidently are not, to defend yourself is up to you, but I think you should find your dignity and grow a pair.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Lol, I'm not selling anything. If you want to continue working for Uber after AB5 then do. If you don't then don't.
> False reporting by pax is a different discussion entirely. You do seem to be having trouble staying on topic today. I think maybe you are indeed feeling a little peaky.


You like to say one thing and when it is questioned or called out you then cry that's not what you said. So whatever. You are not selling minimum wage and asspenny per mile rates. Or you are. Great.

Uber and Lyft will never force you to work a schedule you won't work. Uber and Lyft will protect you the big meanies. Got it. All OK now?


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Fusion_LUser said:


> You like to say one thing and when it is questioned or called out you then cry that's not what you said. So whatever. You are not selling minimum wage and asspenny per mile rates. Or you are. Great.
> 
> Uber and Lyft will never force you to work a schedule you won't work. Uber and Lyft will protect you the big meanies. Got it. All OK now?


Lol, I didn't say any of the above. Again, I am not "selling" anything. And I never said that Uber would "protect" me from pax.

Why you keep making things up and then attributing them to the other person is a mystery. It's certainly a most bizarre discussion technique. You don't need me in this discussion - you seem to be enjoying contributing both sides of the conversation all by yourself!


----------



## MikhailCA (Dec 8, 2019)

Fusion_LUser said:


> You like to say one thing and when it is questioned or called out you then cry that's not what you said. So whatever. You are not selling minimum wage and asspenny per mile rates. Or you are. Great.
> 
> Uber and Lyft will never force you to work a schedule you won't work. Uber and Lyft will protect you the big meanies. Got it. All OK now?





The Gift of Fish said:


> Lol, I didn't say any of the above. You don't need me in this discussion - you seem to be enjoying contributing both sides of the conversation all by yourself!


Continue guys


----------



## Mkang14 (Jun 29, 2019)

MikhailCA said:


> Continue guys


My favorite...


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

MikhailCA said:


> Continue guys


I've probably reached the end of the line with this guy.

Me - "I like apples"
Fusion User - "So, you're saying that you hate all fruit, huh?"

&#129335;‍♂


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Lol, I didn't say any of the above. Again, I am not "selling" anything. And I never said that Uber would "protect" me from pax.


I know. I know. You are not selling anything other how great AB5 is. So how about I just agree with you that AB5 is great because both you and I will make .25 a minute? Really the more I think about that it sounds great. Tootling pax around for .25 a minute before taxes will be awesome.

FRICKA FRACKA FIRECRACKER SIS BOOM BA. AB5 AB5 RA RA RA!


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Fusion_LUser said:


> I know. I know. You are not selling anything other how great AB5 is. So how about I just agree with you that AB5 is great because both you and I will make .25 a minute? Really the more I think about that it sounds great. Tootling pax around for .25 a minute before taxes will be awesome.
> 
> FRICKA FRACKA FIRECRACKER SIS BOOM BA. AB5 AB5 RA RA RA!


Now you're just being silly. You silly Billy.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I've probably reached the end of the line with this guy.
> 
> Me - "I like apples"
> Fusion User - "So, you're saying that you hate all fruit, huh?"
> ...


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)




----------



## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

The only thing @The Gift of Fish is selling is the promise of a more refined discourse on UP. We should all be buying into that.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

waldowainthrop said:


> The only thing @The Gift of Fish is selling is the promise of a more refined discourse on UP. We should all be buying into that.


I would accept the idea that getting paid .25 a minute driving pax to the laundry mat long before going along with refined discourse. And I will never accept the idea that getting paid .25 a minute to drive pax around.

Anyway some ant saying one thing and then saying that is not what he said is not exactly refined discourse. It's just making it up as you go along.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> View attachment 499492
> 
> 
> View attachment 499499


There's no animosity.

I see it as my role to explain things to people, even when they aren't able to interpret correctly what's being said to them.


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

The Gift of Fish said:


> There's no animosity.
> 
> I see it as my role to explain things to people, even when they aren't able to interpret correctly what's being said to them.


You don't need animosity to hug it out!

sometimes it's recognizing politely two pple won't get anywhere and trust me, I've had cat fight here so I know animosity. At that point you just rise above it &#128517;.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> You don't need animosity to hug it out.
> 
> sometimes it's recognizing politely two pple won't get anywhere and trust me, I've had cat fight here so I know animosity. At that point you just rise above it &#128517;.


There's really nothing to rise above. I was just trying to explain certain points to the guy. I can normally explain things in a way that people can digest, however on this occasion that was not possible. No big deal!


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Coachman said:


> That'll be before your expenses.


...what expenses. As an employee you would be reimbursed for mileage.



Fusion_LUser said:


> Lyft says a lot of BS but when it comes to money and screwing the ants do you think Lyft will not follow through on this?


don't do Lyft and tend to scroll right past Lyft issues posted here. No doubt there will be an email bomb from Uber very very soon......I guess today or by tomorrow.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

SHalester said:


> ...what expenses. As an employee you would be reimbursed for mileage.
> 
> 
> don't do Lyft and tend to scroll right past Lyft issues posted here. No doubt there will be an email bomb from Uber very very soon......I guess today or by tomorrow.


Uber just posted a big red flashy flashy with "Service Update - Plan ahead this week as ridesharing in CA may be suspended" with a learn more.


----------



## AcSlater (Oct 22, 2019)

Heard the news saying uber and lyft will stopniperation if they can’t get a extension to the ruling.

if we do end up being employees, it will suck even more. No flexibility , more rules, and less money! The benefit of being a independent contractor is the tax benefits and write offs. Sure we pay a self employment tax in ca... but it helps in the long run not having to pay anything due to the mileage deduction balancing things.

being employees we are screwed. Why do you think ca is pushing so hard? They want the employment taxes ... no way they are trying to help drivers.


----------



## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

AcSlater said:


> Heard the news saying uber and lyft will stopniperation if they can't get a extension to the ruling.


Where did you hear this? Mainly because it appears that Uber and Lyft are willing to shut down for a couple of months to push Prop 22 especially now that polling data from mostly pro-AB5 fluff article writers show Prop 22 with a huge lead on passing.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Fusion_LUser said:


> Uber just posted a big red flashy flashy with "Service Update


aimed at pax only. Nothing to drivers.....yet....


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

OldUncleDave said:


> But UberLyft WASN'T an employer! They were following the law, as written. The drivers weren't employees, therefore no MediCare contributions. So, let's declare the business model illegal!


Uberlyft was always an employer in disguise, and drivers were always pseudo IC according to federal law, based on degree of control and lack of independence of the worker.

California didn't declare Uber's business model illegal; it simply stated its criteria for identifying IC. By saying that CA made the business model illegal, you equate misclassifying employees to Uber's business model, however the former is obviously only a part of the latter.


> Well, there's an interesting concept. If it were true, we would have no poverty because our minimum wage has increased from $1.75/hour in 1970 to $15/hour today. All work (and pay) will lift people out of poverty, whether or not they pay to the state for benefits. Why not allow them to negotiate how much they get?


Of course the minimum wage won't lift all people out of poverty. What I said was that lifting people out of poverty was the idea, or intention. I don't consider that a policy has to be 100% successful in order for it to be worthwhile or beneficial. There will always be differences between intent and outcome, due to many factors. In this case, one of them is the amount of and increases to the minimum wage. Another is unemployment. There are many.

When you ask, "Why not allow them to negotiate how much they get?", I assume you're asking about letting employees negotiate wages below a minimum wage, which is functionally the same as having no minimum wage. Which brings us full circle back to the beginning, and the idea of the minimum wage as a mechanism to alleviate poverty.


----------



## Westerner (Dec 22, 2016)

All I know is I like being able to work when I want, where I want, and for how long I want. Becoming an employee will change all of that. I don't want the mandatory 12-hour shifts that many Taxi companies mandate. If I get tired, I want to call it a day. I don't want to work late at night when I'll have to pick up drunks at bars. I don't want to have to work in the parts of town I don't want to, like downtown where people only want to go around the block. If I want to take a couple of days off, I don't want to have to "put in for it". Uber and Lyft sure aren't perfect but they work for me in their current form.

Edit: I know this post was a waste of time.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Uberlyft was always an employer in disguise, and drivers were always pseudo IC according to federal law, based on degree of control and lack of independence of the worker.
> 
> California didn't declare Uber's business model illegal; it simply stated its criteria for identifying IC. By saying that CA made the business model illegal, you equate misclassifying employees to Uber's business model, however the former is obviously only a part of the latter.
> Of course the minimum wage won't lift all people out of poverty. What I said was that lifting people out of poverty was the idea, or intention. I don't consider that a policy has to be 100% successful in order for it to be worthwhile or beneficial. There will always be differences between intent and outcome, due to many factors. In this case, one of them is the amount of and increases to the minimum wage. Another is unemployment. There are many.
> ...


I live in poverty, but I am free.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> I live in poverty, but I am free.


So do these folks, and so are they. "Livin' the dream"!


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> So do these folks, and so are they. "Livin' the dream"!
> 
> View attachment 502880


Who are you to judge?


The Gift of Fish said:


> So do these folks, and so are they. "Livin' the dream"!
> 
> View attachment 502880


Some yes and some no.
Who are you to judge and decide?
Some want help and some don't.
Help is available, thanks to my quarterly taxes, but some want to be free of societie's shackles.
Frankly, for the ones predisposed to accepting help, teach them to fish instead of giving them a fish.


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Judge and Jury said:


> Who are you to judge?


I haven't judged or decided anything. Some people choose freedom over employment, and some choose employment over freedom. It's up to you!


> Some want help and some don't.


Yep, some people want help and some people don't. Some people want mint chocolate chip ice cream and some people don't. Some people want certain things, others don't.


> Help is available, thanks to my quarterly taxes, but some want to be free of societie's shackles.


I don't see that accepting state welfare is a societal shackle. Very poetic imagery, to be sure, of people in chains, but that's all it is.


> Frankly, for the ones predisposed to accepting help, teach them to fish instead of giving them a fish.


Teaching people to be self reliant is indeed good. I believe that there are many low-cost or free vocational courses for people to take. I'm all for them.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> I haven't judged or decided anything. Some people choose freedom over employment, and some choose employment over freedom. It's up to you!
> Yep, some people want help and some people don't. Some people want mint chocolate chip ice cream and some people don't. Some people want certain things, others don't.
> I don't see that accepting state welfare is a societal shackle. Very poetic imagery, to be sure, of people in chains, but that's all it is.
> 
> Teaching people to be self reliant is indeed good. I believe that there are many low-cost or free vocational courses for people to take. I'm all for them.


Have you ever been homeless? Slept on a piece of plywood on the tire racks of a gas station? Slept in a VW bus until it was buried in mud in Topanga Canyon? Had a judge berate you for not having an address and then just make up an address in Malibu Canyon?
Been there, done that.
By the way, I am curious. Why are you called the gift of fish?


----------

