# So in California we’re now employees



## DRider85 (Nov 19, 2016)

How long do you think it will be before we schedule shifts? Do you think it’s weekly? Is this really gonna work?


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

*lmfao you better make sure to punch in on time bro! 







*


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## Jst1dreamr (Apr 25, 2019)




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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

DRider85 said:


> How long do you think it will be before we schedule shifts? Do you think it's weekly? Is this really gonna work?


Californians are not employees ... we are subjects.


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## Uberisfuninlv (Mar 22, 2017)

*So in California we're now employees*

I never thought I'd see the day where I'd get to share a break room with Rohit.


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## DRider85 (Nov 19, 2016)

The court ruled us employees. Why are you guys taking this as a joke?


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

what makes you think there will be shifts?


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## Paladin220 (Jun 2, 2017)

oldfart said:


> what makes you think there will be shifts?


because uber and lyft are going to have to limit the amount of drivers that are online at any one time if they have to pay an hourly wage. They aren't going to allow everybody to be signed on collecting wages at 2am on a Wednesday.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

The CPUC decision is the third (or maybe 4th of 5th) decision that uber drivers are employees...

First was Dynamax,

Then AB5

Then the Cpuc desicion.

Cpuc had no choice but to declare you guys employees, as uber/lyft drivers fail _all 3 portions of the 3 part test_.

And they COULD preserve flexibility.

How i personally could see it working..

First of all, in order to make minimum wage in California you need to be getting $25+ an hour because of the sheer number of miles and the requirement that employees make min wage free and clear of all impermissible deductions (vehicle expenses are specifically listed)

1. Waiting list to go online during slow times
2. Requiring 100% acceptance rating (this will just have to happen)
{HOWEVER, they will have to pay for ALL miles driven at a rate of 53.5c per mile plus time pay} so you wouldn't be getting pulled 10 miles for a $3.00 fare}
3. Self scheduling time you want to work

Uber could also send out messages "Hey Stevie, it's busy in your area, Go online and start receiving pings?"

They would also have to kick people offline if it's slow.
My priority for kicking people off.
1. People reaching 12 hours online time for the day
2. People reaching 40 hours
3. Low rated drivers

But honestly, the only flexibility that would be lost is the ability to go online when it's slow... which if the pay is kicked way up when its busy i still foresee you making more money than before, inevitably more mullah in less time.

Just to explain the min wage deal a little better.

In Florida a driver driving 200 miles in 10 hours would be entitled to...
$8.46 X 10 = $84.60 (this is less than uber/lyft drivers currently make for 10 hours, if not somewhere in this range)

So it might not LOOK like there's an improvement. However those 200 miles result in an impermissible deduction of $107, putting their actual wage after deductions to -$22.40. This means that they would have to provid a further payment of $107 to get the drivers income UP TO minimum wage.

So an employee driver would be entitled to $191.60 for 10 hours where 200 miles were driven.

However with California minimum wage...

For 200 miles driven you would be entitled to

$13.00 X 10
+$107 in mileage reimbursement,
+ tips

SO for 10 hours, you would be entitled to $237, plus tips. And if you had $300 more or less in fares in that 10 hours (Uber is going to have ot increase prices) Your might get another $50 in tips on top of that.

AND THIS is what minimum wage as an uber driver looks like. $237+ tips for 10 hours...

AND... once you hit 40 hours your entitled to overtime, which unfortunatly isn't time and a half. It's time and a half not counting mileage reimbursement. If all 10 of the above hours were overtime that's only $65 extra. Which is not a lot more....


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

DRider85 said:


> How long do you think it will be before we schedule shifts? Do you think it's weekly? Is this really gonna work?


I think you are lucky if in Cal., this could turn out well for you all, you and NY city drivers making a living, where I live in South Florida its a struggle to stay afloat and this state doesn't give a shit about you so it will never change unless the Feds go after the slave state companies Uber/Lyft.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Paladin220 said:


> because uber and lyft are going to have to limit the amount of drivers that are online at any one time if they have to pay an hourly wage. They aren't going to allow everybody to be signed on collecting wages at 2am on a Wednesday.


i guess thats my second question...

What makes you think you would be paid a "wage" I was once an employee for a company that paid commission only, not a salary. There was no minimum wage (no maximum either
If you couldnt make a certain minimum you were let go

Why couldnt Uber do something similar?

But I do agree if Uber decides to comply and pay a wage, They will have to limit the number of drivers on the street, somehow


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

So did you get your W4 forms in the mail or did you fill those out online?


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

oldfart said:


> i guess thats my second question...
> 
> What makes you think you would be paid a "wage" I was once an employee for a company that paid commission only, not a salary. There was no minimum wage (no maximum either
> If you couldnt make a certain minimum you were let go
> ...


Of course they will have to limit, just like NY city there is a waiting list to become a gig driver, last I heard they are getting 26. hour minimum, haven't looked in awhile so rough number can't remember.


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

DRider85 said:


> How long do you think it will be before we schedule shifts? Do you think it's weekly? Is this really gonna work?


When will Uber/Lyft be getting rid of the 90% of the drivers? LOL


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## Galveston (Aug 16, 2019)

DRider85 said:


> How long do you think it will be before we schedule shifts? Do you think it's weekly? Is this really gonna work?


I can't believe y'all are still complaining about this. We are all screwed for being independent contractors. At least California drivers will have some protections including unemployment!


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## DRider85 (Nov 19, 2016)

Galveston said:


> I can't believe y'all are still complaining about this. We are all screwed for being independent contractors. At least California drivers will have some protections including unemployment!


Im asking a question.....


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## Jst1dreamr (Apr 25, 2019)

Uberisfuninlv said:


> *So in California we're now employees*
> 
> I never thought I'd see the day where I'd get to share a break room with Rohit.


You're in Las Vegas so you can't come to the break room party.



Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> The CPUC decision is the third (or maybe 4th of 5th) decision that uber drivers are employees...
> 
> First was Dynamax,
> 
> ...


You make a good view of the possible future in California as a rideshare driver but you overlooked two points.
1st point is that in California time over 8 hours in a day unless pre-arranged 4-10 work week are also OT even if you work less than 40 hour weeks.
2nd minimum wage in California varies by area. Some areas have a higher minimum wage requirement.

I can see it now next Uber/Lyft will be spending millions to fight the already scheduled minimum wage increases in July and again next year.


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

Jst1dreamr said:


> You're in Las Vegas so you can't come to the break room party.
> 
> 
> You make a good view of the possible future in California as a rideshare driver but you overlooked two points.
> ...


10-4.


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## Giantsfan1503 (Sep 18, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> The CPUC decision is the third (or maybe 4th of 5th) decision that uber drivers are employees...
> 
> First was Dynamax,
> 
> ...


In NYC drivers are forced to choose between Uber and Lyft. A minimum wage law was passed and many drivers suffered. Uber/Lyft began to lock drivers out. The only way to work was to have priority status with either app. With Lyft that meant 180 rides in 30 days and 90% acceptance rate. The 180 rides were impossible to complete if you didn't already have priority. Drivers who did not reach priority were barely allowed to logon. This caused all drivers to flood Uber who then in turn set their own priority guidelines. Long story short in NYC with priority I was making more money than I ever did driving rideshare. The drivers who didn't make priority lost their cars, got evicted from their homes, didn't have enough money to feed their families. If I were a driver in California i'd chose between Uber and Lyft. I'd then make as many rides as I could because you guys are headed towards priority driving.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Giantsfan1503 said:


> In NYC drivers are forced to choose between Uber and Lyft. A minimum wage law was passed and many drivers suffered. Uber/Lyft began to lock drivers out. The only way to work was to have priority status with either app. With Lyft that meant 180 rides in 30 days and 90% acceptance rate. The 180 rides were impossible to complete if you didn't already have priority. Drivers who did not reach priority were barely allowed to logon. This caused all drivers to flood Uber who then in turn set their own priority guidelines. Long story short in NYC with priority I was making more money than I ever did driving rideshare. The drivers who didn't make priority lost their cars, got evicted from their homes, didn't have enough money to feed their families. If I were a driver in California i'd chose between Uber and Lyft. I'd then make as many rides as I could because you guys are headed towards priority driving.


Read the above again folks.
This is your future.

Or, consider MY advice ....
Take the unemployment,
Sharpen old skills or learn new ones,
Wait till the attack on civilization by Antifa and China is over,
Get a decent job.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

oldfart said:


> What makes you think you would be paid a "wage" I was once an employee for a company that paid commission only, not a salary. There was no minimum wage


Both CA and federal employment law make me believe that Uber's CA driver employees would be paid a "wage".

If you worked a job as an employee in any state in which you were denied minimum wage then that employer broke federal law, potentially in addition to state law, depending on the state.

Anyway, here's the relevant section of the law in CA that requires employers to pay CA employees minimum wage, along with the amounts payable each year:

*LABOR CODE - LAB
DIVISION 2. EMPLOYMENT REGULATION AND SUPERVISION [200 - 2699.5]*
_ ( Division 2 enacted by Stats. 1937, Ch. 90. )_

*PART 4. EMPLOYEES [1171 - 1408]*
_ ( Heading of Part 4 amended by Stats. 1972, Ch. 1122. )_

*CHAPTER 1. Wages, Hours and Working Conditions [1171 - 1206]*
_ ( Chapter 1 enacted by Stats. 1937, Ch. 90. )_
*1182.12. *
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this part, on and after July 1, 2014, the minimum wage for all industries shall be not less than nine dollars ($9) per hour, and on and after January 1, 2016, the minimum wage for all industries shall be not less than ten dollars ($10) per hour.
(b) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), the minimum wage for all industries shall not be less than the amounts set forth in this subdivision, except when the scheduled increases in paragraphs (1) and (2) are temporarily suspended under subdivision (d).
(1) For any employer who employs 26 or more employees, the minimum wage shall be as follows:
(A) From January 1, 2017, to December 31, 2017, inclusive,-ten dollars and fifty cents ($10.50) per hour.
(B) From January 1, 2018, to December 31, 2018, inclusive,-eleven dollars ($11) per hour.
(C) From January 1, 2019, to December 31, 2019, inclusive,-twelve dollars ($12) per hour.
*(D) From January 1, 2020, to December 31, 2020, inclusive,-thirteen dollars ($13) per hour.*


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> CA employment law makes me believe that Uber's CA driver employees would be paid a "wage".
> 
> If you worked a job as an employee in any state in which you were denied minimum wage then that employer broke federal law, potentially in addition to state law, depending on the state.


A real estate agent, in California ... is an employee.
By law, must work under a Brokers license.
The Broker is paid all commissions, then disburses to the agent their cut.
Straight commission. No hourly pay.
60% of the real estate agents out there are making less than Uber drivers.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

The question is, if/when this rolls through, isn’t the hours worked calculated by the ride duration? Much like those who work as flight attendants, who aren’t paid until the door is closed and the pay stops when the flight ends. I believe the before and after, there are stipends.

It also makes me wonder when they say that pple work part time, only a few hours... are they online only for a few hours or collectively they’ve only driven a few hours worth of pay?

because there’s a huge difference. You could have a full timer be calculated as part timer simply because they only took that amount of hours for fares. Not counting time before and the deadmiles in between.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

UberBastid said:


> A real estate agent, in California ... is an employee.


It's not as simple as that.

Pursuant to California B&P Code 10032, a real estate agent or salesperson may be classified as an independent contractor ONLY IF ALL three of the following conditions are met:

They possess a real estate license (most, if not all, do); AND
They perform their services pursuant to a written contract that identifies that they will not be treated as an employee for tax purposes; AND
They derive substantially all of their compensation for services performed as a real estate agent rather than the number of hours worked.
If all of the above are true, and I imagine that the real estate companies ensure that all are true before taking a realtor on, then CA classifies them as IC, not employees.

Real estate companies have very rich lobbyists both in Sacramento and in Washington.

Oldfart did not mention that his min wage - free engagement was in real estate, but if it was then this special carve-out for real estate agents wouldn't apply to rideshare drivers.


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

UberBastid said:


> A real estate agent, in California ... is an employee.
> By law, must work under a Brokers license.
> The Broker is paid all commissions, then disburses to the agent their cut.
> Straight commission. No hourly pay.
> 60% of the real estate agents out there are making less than Uber drivers.


60% of the Uber drivers are real estate agents &#128077;


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Real estate companies have very rich lobbyists both in Sacramento and in Washington.


Yes.
NAR and CAR have s strong lobby, several hundred dollars of my thousands of per year relicense fees goes there. And, they know that they represent a bunch of rabid capitalists who are self-sufficient and want to stay that way.
It won't last in California.
Freedom isn't allowed here any more.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

.


The Gift of Fish said:


> It's not as simple as that.
> 
> Pursuant to California B&P Code 10032, a real estate agent or salesperson may be classified as an independent contractor ONLY IF ALL three of the following conditions are met:
> 
> ...


i was a stockbroker for 10 years from 1985 to 1995 in Md In 1990 The minimum wage in 1990 was raised to $3.80 an hour beginning April 1, *1990*, and to $4.25 an hour beginning April 1, 1991. . So a 40 hour week would be about $700 a month, As I recall we were paid $1500 a month during training as we prepared to take the series 7 exam and after passing the test we continued to be paid $1500 per month for a few months then the $1500 became a draw against commission. If we didnt make the $1500 we would be fired

In 1964 I worked in one of JW Marriott's restaurants as a car hop Minimum wage at the time was $1.25/hr I was paid $0.505.hr plus tips

so my experience was a long time ago and Im sure the laws have changed since then.. What hasnt changed is that employers will figure out how to comply with the law and make even more money on the backs of labor and the customers

I suspect the laws are much different now and as you suggest Uber wont be able to get around the minimum wage law if uber cant change how we work, to qualify us as contractors. Personally I think the uber lawyers will be able to tweek the system to comply with the law and continue to treat us as contractors, But even if they lose and we do become employees Uber will do just fine and we will still have a lot to complain about

UPS delivery drivers are employees with full benefits and pay that averages $75000/ yr
Fedex Ground contracts with local delivery companies and the delivery companies hire the drivers Fedex drivers make about $50000/ yr in California
Amazon, like Fedex, contracts with local delivery companies who hire the drivers,,, average pay is $50000

which model do you think uber will go for?.. I doubt it will be The UPS model


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

oldfart said:


> .
> 
> i was a stockbroker for 10 years from 1985 to 1995 in Md In 1990 The minimum wage in 1990 was raised to $3.80 an hour beginning April 1, *1990*, and to $4.25 an hour beginning April 1, 1991. . So a 40 hour week would be about $700 a month, As I recall we were paid $1500 a month during training as we prepared to take the series 7 exam and after passing the test we continued to be paid $1500 per month for a few months then the $1500 became a draw against commission. If we didnt make the $1500 we would be fired
> 
> ...


Look, I get it, but it won't be their choice in the end, you in a nutshell are whatever, it i what it is, I get that but they will pay in the end in my opinion because of their greed, now there are people who say ok Uber/Lyft I will take your customers as I know you do and make a living, 10-4.


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## AJ56 (May 14, 2020)

DRider85 said:


> How long do you think it will be before we schedule shifts? Do you think it's weekly? Is this really gonna work?


Rip


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## DRider85 (Nov 19, 2016)

I don’t understand half the posts in this thread. I was asking how our shifts will work since California has been ruled to make us an employee.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

LetsBeSmart said:


> Look, I get it, but it won't be their choice in the end, you in a nutshell are whatever, it i what it is, I get that but they will pay in the end in my opinion because of their greed, now there are people who say ok Uber/Lyft I will take your customers as I know you do and make a living, 10-4.


Maybe its wishful thinking on my part, but I think Uber will outsmart the California law I know I dont want to be limited to Florida's mimimum wage $8.46 Last year I grossed $49000 and my actual expenses were $12500 so net $36500. assuming a 40 hour week thats $17.50 an hour. Even if I crank in $7000 a year for depreciation Im making $13 an hour


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

DRider85 said:


> I don't understand half the posts in this thread. I was asking how our shifts will work since California has been ruled to make us an employee.


You expect a UP.net thread to stay on topic? &#128514; &#129315; :roflmao:


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## flyntflossy10 (Jun 2, 2017)

DRider85 said:


> The court ruled us employees. Why are you guys taking this as a joke?


we take everything you say as a joke


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

DRider85 said:


> I don't understand half the posts in this thread. I was asking how our shifts will work since California has been ruled to make us an employee.


I think if uber is forced to pay an hourly wage, the app will only allow a certain number of drivers on line at one time depending on demand.. If you are online and demand drops, you will be thrown off line or told to drive to an area where there is demand. and I see a maximum time working at 20 hours a week... part time so little or no benefits

I see three settings on the app...

1) not available to accept a ride,(unpaid) 
2) available to work waiting for a ping (unpaid)
3) actually driving to a passenger and to their destination (paid)

drop your passenger and you go back to #2 or #1 depending on demand
With any luck If Uber lets you go online in the first place they will keep you working with very little #2 time

anyhow thats what I would try if I was in charge

I dont see shift work happening


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## Giantsfan1503 (Sep 18, 2019)

DRider85 said:


> I don't understand half the posts in this thread. I was asking how our shifts will work since California has been ruled to make us an employee.


You must be blind or not have the ability to read english. How will your shifts work? You are not going to be allowed to work. You will try to sign in to the app and not be allowed. Find another job.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> It's not as simple as that.
> 
> Pursuant to California B&P Code 10032, a real estate agent or salesperson may be classified as an independent contractor ONLY IF ALL three of the following conditions are met:
> 
> ...


Ive been a real estate agent too (in Florida), and we were independent contractors but that isnt what I was taking about..

Min wage as I said in my post was about $4 an hour..in 1990 so $160 a week; $8300/yr 
If you were making less then $50000 your position was in danger.. Under $40000 and most managers would see you to the door because you were costing the firm money, The more the brokers earned the more the company earned

I think in New York, Uber set rates and the number of drivers so that the drivers can make $25 an hour (before expenses) But what if a driver is not making that much, do you really think uber is going to make up the difference? I for one, dont think do... I think they will be 
deactivated


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## nj9000 (Jun 6, 2019)

The entire point of driving rideshare is to be 1099. There's plenty of other opportunities to be W2 wageslaves.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

nj9000 said:


> The entire point of driving rideshare is to be 1099. There's plenty of other opportunities to be W2 wageslaves.


I agree but the state of California sees it differently


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## MikhailCA (Dec 8, 2019)

Paladin220 said:


> because uber and lyft are going to have to limit the amount of drivers that are online at any one time if they have to pay an hourly wage. They aren't going to allow everybody to be signed on collecting wages at 2am on a Wednesday.


Well, 15$ per hour plus some miles reimbursement for driving a car at 2am.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Tips have been overlooked in this discussion.

Like waitstaff, pizza drivers, and other tipped workers, Uber would be able to use any in-app tips received by the drivers toward their minimum wage obligation.

If this employee mandate is upheld by the courts, it's very bad news for Uber. They'll be forced to basically write-off the California market as a "loss leader" they way they've probably done with NYC. 

For the sake of their credibility, pulling out of CA isn't an option.

If AB5 spreads beyond CA, Uber is in serious trouble to say the least.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

DRider85 said:


> How long do you think it will be before we schedule shifts? Do you think it's weekly? Is this really gonna work?


Full time or part time? Ain't gonna be full time shifts in CA if we are employees.



DRider85 said:


> The court ruled us employees. Why are you guys taking this as a joke?


Because no way in hell do I want to be a minimum wage, part time employee while I am making bank as an IC for multiple apps.



oldfart said:


> what makes you think there will be shifts?


Match forecasted demand against number of drivers. Also, no full time drivers. Benefits for part timers much less than cost of benefits for full timers. Although, back in the day, working for an employment agency 60 hours a week, I got 3 days off per year, no paid vacation, optional health care at $600 per month and worker's compensation. So that may be something to look forward to if I become an employee. Plus the minimum wage thing.


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## Mkang14 (Jun 29, 2019)

Judge and Jury said:


> Because no way in hell do I want to be a minimum wage, part time employee while I am making bank as an IC for multiple apps.


No need for a Jury, the judge has layed the smackdown &#128104;‍⚖


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

oldfart said:


> Maybe its wishful thinking on my part, but I think Uber will outsmart the California law I know I dont want to be limited to Florida's mimimum wage $8.46 Last year I grossed $49000 and my actual expenses were $12500 so net $36500. assuming a 40 hour week thats $17.50 an hour. Even if I crank in $7000 a year for depreciation Im making $13 an hour


I think a great question would be how much on the books and off the books? If I chose to take every possible customer I got from them I could make more I am sure. I would prefer a system where I am paid a fair wage per job and didn't take their customers with my expenses being part of that wage. I would also like to make a living working a 40 hour week not more, I am sure to make income like you did you worked more than a 40 hour week, a lot more, so your hourly breakdown is way off, you would probably make more with the Florida minimum wage.


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## Giantsfan1503 (Sep 18, 2019)

oldfart said:


> Ive been a real estate agent too (in Florida), and we were independent contractors but that isnt what I was taking about..
> 
> Min wage as I said in my post was about $4 an hour..in 1990 so $160 a week; $8300/yr
> If you were making less then $50000 your position was in danger.. Under $40000 and most managers would see you to the door because you were costing the firm money, The more the brokers earned the more the company earned
> ...


During the initial stages of the lockout in NYC thousands of drivers were deactivated for "safety" reports. The drivers weren't given details on the specific incident that resulted in their deactivation. Only that multiple riders had supposedly made the same complaint. Thousands more weren't allowed to go online. Those who worked full time and gave hundreds of rides a month were allowed to work. I was one of those. Thousands suffering and a chosen few making $2500 to $3000 a week.


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## Poopy54 (Sep 6, 2016)

DRider85 said:


> I don't understand half the posts in this thread. I was asking how our shifts will work since California has been ruled to make us an employee.


Because everyone is guessing


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

Giantsfan1503 said:


> During the initial stages of the lockout in NYC thousands of drivers were deactivated for "safety" reports. The drivers weren't given details on the specific incident that resulted in their deactivation. Only that multiple riders had supposedly made the same complaint. Thousands more weren't allowed to go online. Those who worked full time and gave hundreds of rides a month were allowed to work. I was one of those. Thousands suffering and a chosen few making $2500 to $3000 a week.


That's the way it goes, if I am a driver doing 200 rides a month or more and doing it for 4 years with a high 4.97 rating, I deserve to be one of those drivers making 3000 a week, I would like to see them do this all across the US, I don't get the suffering, if you are not making shit for money and destroying your car why would you want to do it unless you have to. Especially if you are young why would you want to waste your time doing it, get a real job with a career, for many the best thing that could have happened.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

LetsBeSmart said:


> I think a great question would be how much on the books and off the books? If I chose to take every possible customer I got from them I could make more I am sure. I would prefer a system where I am paid a fair wage per job and didn't take their customers with my expenses being part of that wage. I would also like to make a living working a 40 hour week not more, I am sure to make income like you did you worked more than a 40 hour week, a lot more, so your hourly breakdown is way off, you would probably make more with the Florida minimum wage.


yes I worked a lot more than a 40 hour week (if you can call a nap in the airport parking lot, work) Most business owners do, at least at the beginning

like any employee you want to compare hours working a job to hours building a business; and all you see is 40 hours compared to 70 hours, I have this same argument with my wife. I get it.. but thats not what Im looking at. What I see is $3000 a month after expenses compared to what I could make working a minimum wage job and the thing is,,.doing what Im doing has allowed me to add to my savings each month instead of spending my savings,, and treating this little driving gig like a business has allowed me to qualify for both PPP and EIDL I should come out of this with more in the bank, then I had going in

They say if you work for yourself you have the worst possible boss. But Id rather that, than work for someone else


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

oldfart said:


> I agree but the state of California sees it differently


All California thinks about is collecting more tax money in any way or form they can. They don't care about the people.

If Florida pulls this crap I will most likely be done driving for Uber/Lyft. I went into driving U/L fully knowing what I was getting into and have no desire to be an employee with what ever restrictions they want to place. Heck I turned down an offer to drive a van for a resort twice and they were giving me a lot of freedom schedule wise and excellent pay. I just don't want to be tied to a schedule. If I all of a sudden decide I want to go fishing and drive U/L guess what? I'm going fishing and there is no one to answer to or explain it to.


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

oldfart said:


> yes I worked a lot more than a 40 hour week (if you can call a nap in the airport parking lot, work) Most business owners do, at least at the beginning
> 
> like any employee you want to compare hours working a job to hours building a business; and all you see is 40 hours compared to 70 hours, I have this same argument with my wife. I get it.. but thats not what Im looking at. What I see is $3000 a month after expenses compared to what I could make working a minimum wage job and the thing is,,.doing what Im doing has allowed me to add to my savings each month instead of spending my savings,, and treating this little driving gig like a business has allowed me to qualify for both PPP and EIDL I should come out of this with more in the bank, then I had going in
> 
> They say if you work for yourself you have the worst possible boss. But Id rather that, than work for someone else


Believe me I get why you do it and yes at the end of the day you're making enough money to keep you happy, there is no way I would work that many hours. I was saying these movements in Cal. and NY is the way I hope it keeps going, I think after this pandemic is over the Feds are going to catch up to them and possibly with pressure from them we will start getting a fair wage per job with our expenses being covered as well as our pay, this is all. The fact that we were included with this pandemic help is a good sign also.

I would choose this type of situation over taking their customers and basically trying to start my own business with their customers, it amazes me they let many people get away with this, I have had so many customers tell me I am the only driver they have had lately that didn't give them a business card, so many are doing this and this is a lot of money Uber/Lyft are losing.

One of the main reasons I don't work the airport is because when you have people calling customers and trying to pick and choose jobs based on distance the chance you are going to get screwed by another driver is high and I would be forced to play the same game, I am sure it has happened to me at the airport, I like a fair equal situation for all and I hope one day we have it with the gig work without taking their customers.

I think I mentioned this before but I did the towncar thing in Fort Lauderdale, dressed up everyday and did pretty well for around 4 years, just got burned out from it, a lot of ass kissing as I was getting my customers from Hotels mainly paying commissions to bellman, valet and concierge. I had one travel agency that used me also, I was at the Miami airport probably 5 or more times a day during the season, the biggest problem I remember was you really couldn't say no to a place that was giving you a lot of business so your life was revolving around the job, I ended up buying a brand new 15 passenger van and used that my last year doing it, I also drove stretch limos for a company, I have done weddings, funerals and the rest, I don't recommend it but good money sometimes.


----------



## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

Uber has all the leverage, if the morons in california vote no on the ballot to oppose ab5, this bill https://protectdriversandservices.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItoHM1_b86QIVy4FaBR14VQNqEAAYASAAEgKoRfD_BwE

Then they should just leave, within a week the frauds in California will beg to have them back with some type of compromise. Uber simply doesnt work with a employee model, it will be a disaster, and other blue states will demand the same thing if uber caves, they should leave if they are forced to become w-2.


----------



## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

DRider85 said:


> How long do you think it will be before we schedule shifts? Do you think it's weekly? Is this really gonna work?


Congrats to all of you, time to start making some real cash when pandemic over.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

oldfart said:


> 2) available to work waiting for a ping (unpaid)


ok, that's wild speculation....but...I have to say if that comes to be I'd be out of here. If I'm an employee the moment I go online I get paid. Driving to a pax, having a pax would not be relevant pay wise. If I'm online, I get paid. Just like every other hourly position. We can't be 'on demand' and employees at the same time.

An example is fast food worker. NO customers in the store, you still get paid even if you are twiddling your thumbs......


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## Uberguyken (May 10, 2020)

DRider85 said:


> The court ruled us employees. Why are you guys taking this as a joke?


Maybe because Uber ignored Ab5 you think that court ruling even caused them to raise an eyebrow?


----------



## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

SHalester said:


> ok, that's wild speculation....but...I have to say if that comes to be I'd be out of here. If I'm an employee the moment I go online I get paid. Driving to a pax, having a pax would not be relevant pay wise. If I'm online, I get paid. Just like every other hourly position. We can't be 'on demand' and employees at the same time.
> 
> An example is fast food worker. NO customers in the store, you still get paid even if you are twiddling your thumbs......


That's how they are doing it in NY, if you are online you get the minimum of approx. 26.00 hour before expenses. There is a waiting list of drivers now, from what I read the kept mainly the fulltimers with hundreds of rides a month.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> The CPUC decision is the third (or maybe 4th of 5th) decision that uber drivers are employees...
> 
> First was Dynamax,
> 
> ...


Any hours over eight in a day would trigger overtime. Uber would likely only allow max eight hours per day.


----------



## Giantsfan1503 (Sep 18, 2019)

observer said:


> Any hours over eight in a day would trigger overtime. Uber would likely only allow max eight hours per day.


You're forgetting breaks!


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> Uber would likely only allow max eight hours per day.


...put another way 99.99% of companies don't allow OT unless approved......in advance....


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> ...put another way 99.99% of companies don't allow OT unless approved......in advance....


True but they still have to pay out the OT. Their only recourse is to discipline the employee, after the fact.

They may have to schedule shorter shifts or send out the last ping with enough time built in to get it done within the eight hours.



Giantsfan1503 said:


> You're forgetting breaks!


Half hour lunch unpaid and two paid ten minute breaks per 8 hour shift.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> Their only recourse is to discipline the employee, after the fact.


and cut their hours for the next pay period. Not a good idea to try and scoot past company policy........or be fired, which is quite legal for 'at will' employees. Ouch.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> ...put another way 99.99% of companies don't allow OT unless approved......in advance....


What I used to do is if an employee went on unauthorized OT, I'd pay out the OT. then the next day I'd schedule them for a five hour day, three hours less than normal.

They learned quickly to punch out on time.



SHalester said:


> and cut their hours for the next pay period. Not a good idea to try and scoot past company policy........or be fired, which is quite legal for 'at will' employees. Ouch.


Yeppp. Lol. I was writing that as you posted.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

oldfart said:


> Maybe its wishful thinking on my part, but I think Uber will outsmart the California law I know I dont want to be limited to Florida's mimimum wage $8.46 Last year I grossed $49000 and my actual expenses were $12500 so net $36500. assuming a 40 hour week thats $17.50 an hour. Even if I crank in $7000 a year for depreciation Im making $13 an hour





oldfart said:


> But Id rather that, than work for someone else


You are working for someone else.

Uber has the power to shut down your "business" anytime it wants. They set your rates. They make all the rules for your business.

They control your access to the customers.

The only "authority" you have is your work hours and ability to decline work offers.

That's a sorry excuse for being your own boss.


----------



## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

observer said:


> Any hours over eight in a day would trigger overtime. Uber would likely only allow max eight hours per day.


But will uber count time on the app but no passenger as work time &#129300;.

kind of like how employees have to travel to work, you don't get paid time before that or after that unless** you had to go somewhere out of the way Eg when I went training in San Jose, the driving time counted. When I went training in Arizona or conference in Texas, the time counted (flight to and back).

so I'm pretty sure uber will make it so that it's hours of ride vs hours logged in, or if they do make it for hours logged in it would be more control with where you'll be to start the "shift" and also less control with whether you get to dump/cancel rides or not, and also after 8 hrs auto time out like how they don't let you drive more than 12 now. They'll simply kick you off the platform. No OT.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

oldfart said:


> i guess thats my second question...
> 
> What makes you think you would be paid a "wage" I was once an employee for a company that paid commission only, not a salary. There was no minimum wage (no maximum either
> If you couldnt make a certain minimum you were let go
> ...


That wouldn't fly.

Commissions are usually paid to sales reps based on your sales. Some companies that use drivers do pay a commision, uniform companies, bread companies, but the driver had an influence on sales. Uber drivers have no influence on sales.

Regardless, drivers paid on commission must be paid at least minimum wage. I knew a couple bread truck drivers that made pretty decent money. I had to ALWAYS keep an eye on uniform companies as they were notorious for padding bills with little extras drivers added.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> But will uber count time on the app but no passenger as work time &#129300;.
> 
> kind of like how employees have to travel to work, you don't get paid time before that or after that unless** you had to go somewhere out of the way Eg when I went training in San Jose, the driving time counted. When I went training in Arizona or conference in Texas, the time counted (flight to and back).
> 
> so I'm pretty sure uber will make it so that it's hours of ride vs hours logged in, or if they do make it for hours logged in it would be more control with where you'll be to start the "shift" and also less control with whether you get to dump/cancel rides or not, and also after 8 hrs auto time out like how they don't let you drive more than 12 now. They'll simply kick you off the platform. No OT.


Drivers wouldn't be entitled to time/mileage pay to report to an office or other "meeting point" but they would be if Uber sends them to a pickup address or puts them on "standby".


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Nats121 said:


> Tips have been overlooked in this discussion.
> 
> Like waitstaff, pizza drivers, and other tipped workers, Uber would be able to use any in-app tips received by the drivers toward their minimum wage obligation.
> 
> ...


Not true, and actually on the contrary, in California ALL tips belong to the employee.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

No need to worry about Uber disobeying AB5 or the CPUC decision, folks - I've checked Uber's website and it says that not following laws and regulations is prohibited:



















Phew! What a relief!


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

observer said:


> Not true, and actually on the contrary, in California ALL tips belong to the employee.


Are you saying tipped workers in California aren't paid a sub-minimum wage?

Here in Virginia and in most of the US tipped workers are paid a much lower minimum wage that only increases if the tips are inadequate to bring the worker up to the state minimum wage.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

sellkatsell44 said:


> But will uber count time on the app but no passenger as work time &#129300;.
> 
> kind of like how employees have to travel to work, you don't get paid time before that or after that unless** you had to go somewhere out of the way Eg when I went training in San Jose, the driving time counted. When I went training in Arizona or conference in Texas, the time counted (flight to and back).
> 
> so I'm pretty sure uber will make it so that it's hours of ride vs hours logged in, or if they do make it for hours logged in it would be more control with where you'll be to start the "shift" and also less control with whether you get to dump/cancel rides or not, and also after 8 hrs auto time out like how they don't let you drive more than 12 now. They'll simply kick you off the platform. No OT.


Once an employee clocks in for a shift they have to be paid a minimum amount of hours unless there was an act of God, Civil unrest or some other major extenuating circumstances.

If an employee is scheduled to work eight hours, they generally must be paid for at least four if they are sent home early.

Uber could schedule four drivers to work one eight hour shift. But, why would they? It would be easier to schedule one or two drivers to cover that shift.

Having too many drivers would require much more paperwork on Ubers part.

I think that what will happen is that they'll go the Amazon route and offer work in two hour blocks.



Nats121 said:


> Are you saying tipped workers in California aren't paid a sub-minimum wage?
> 
> Here in Virginia and in most of the US tipped workers are paid a much lower minimum wage that only increases if the tips are inadequate to bring the worker up to the state minimum wage.


Yupp. Tipped workers get paid at least minimum wage (12 or 13 bux an hour depending on amount of employees) PLUS tips.

Employees also must have all business expenses paid by the employer free and clear of minimum wage.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

observer said:


> Once an employee clocks in for a shift they have to be paid a minimum amount of hours unless there was an act of God, Civil unrest or some other major extenuating circumstances.
> 
> If an employee is scheduled to work eight hours, they generally must be paid for at least four if they are sent home early.
> 
> ...


It's two hours minimum, and that could be it. But they'll figure something out where it's more advantageous for them.


Nats121 said:


> Drivers wouldn't be entitled to time/mileage pay to report to an office or other "meeting point" but they would be if Uber sends them to a pickup address or puts them on "standby".


Standby in the area of their choosing.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

BTW, the minimum wage is higher in some cities and counties so the rate would actually be higher in some areas.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Standby in the area of their choosing.


It doesn't matter where a standby takes place, a worker gets paid for the time commitment.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

sellkatsell44 said:


> It's two hours minimum, and that could be it. But they'll figure something out where it's more advantageous for them.
> 
> Standby in the area of their choosing.


If Uber controls where you are on stand by or they give you a fixed response time, you are on controlled stand by (there's another word for it but I forget it ATM). You must be paid.

But, what will most likely happen is Uber will have another ping waiting for you after drop off. They'll keep you busy since they are now paying you.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> It doesn't matter where a standby takes place, a worker gets paid for the time commitment.


What I meant is that because a worker gets paid for time commitment uber is going to dictate where they "standby" if they have to pay for any idle downtime.



observer said:


> If Uber controls where you are on stand by or they give you a fixed response time, you are on controlled stand by (there's another word for it but I forget it ATM). You must be paid.
> 
> But, what will most likely happen is Uber will have another ping waiting for you after drop off. They'll keep you busy since they are now paying you.


yes, and thats the trade off.

Still advantageous for uber and not the freedom you have right now. Although even then the freedom is not complete.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

observer said:


> BTW, the minimum wage is higher in some cities and counties so the rate would actually be higher in some areas.


In Norcal a few cities are in the 15-16 minimum wage range.


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## NotYetADriver (Oct 28, 2014)

Giantsfan1503 said:


> During the initial stages of the lockout in NYC thousands of drivers were deactivated for "safety" reports. The drivers weren't given details on the specific incident that resulted in their deactivation. Only that multiple riders had supposedly made the same complaint. Thousands more weren't allowed to go online. Those who worked full time and gave hundreds of rides a month were allowed to work. I was one of those. Thousands suffering and a chosen few making $2500 to $3000 a week.


Once they "Turn off" your access to the app....they have demonstrably dictated your schedule. You can no longer make your own choice of when to work. Employee.


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## LazyBumBunny (Jul 12, 2019)

Since when companies abide by laws? It's all a money game..


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

observer said:


> Not true, and actually on the contrary, in California ALL tips belong to the employee.


Of course they belong to the driver. That doesn't mean that they aren't part of their pay.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

oldfart said:


> That doesn't mean that they aren't part of their pay.


how do you mean that? I don't want to assume, but I suspect I know......


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

sellkatsell44 said:


> What I meant is that because a worker gets paid for time commitment uber is going to dictate where they "standby" if they have to pay for any idle downtime.


And if there is a pretty good balance between drivers and passengers and they don't need any other drivers on the road no one else will be able to sign on unless demand increases



SHalester said:


> how do you mean that? I don't want to assume, but I suspect I know......


 I'm sure you do know what I mean but on the chance I didn't make my point

if you work a 5 hour shift and your wage is $20/hr you get paid $100 Not $100 plus tips .. you wouldn't even no if someone tipped you in the app. I can even imagine Uber sending a message to the passengers that encourages them to tip as tips are an important part of drivers compensation


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

oldfart said:


> you wouldn't even no if someone tipped you in the app


well, yes, that is what I assumed you meant, but wanted to make sure first. In calif, that is not how tips would work.

The basic rule of *tips* is that they belong *to* the *employee*, not the *employer*. Under *California* law, an *employer* cannot take any part of a *tip* that's left for an *employee*. ... Employers must pay *employees* at least the *California* minimum wage for each hour worked, in addition *to* any *tips* they may receive.

Just so the wild speculation has some basis in reality.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Galveston said:


> I can't believe y'all are still complaining about this. We are all screwed for being independent contractors. At least California drivers will have some protections including unemployment!


How long have YOU lived in California?


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## Alltel77 (Mar 3, 2019)

The day they classify me as an employee , the app will be deleted.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Galveston said:


> I can't believe y'all are still complaining about this. We are all screwed for being independent contractors. At least California drivers will have some protections including unemployment!


not if they limit you to 20 hours a week


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> Both CA and federal employment law make me believe that Uber's CA driver employees would be paid a "wage".
> 
> If you worked a job as an employee in any state in which you were denied minimum wage then that employer broke federal law, potentially in addition to state law, depending on the state.
> 
> ...


What's the minimum wage for tipped employees?


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

oldfart said:


> not if they limit you to 20 hours a week


The amount of hours worked weekly doesn't have anything to do with unemployment or any other employee benefit except paid medical.

Part time employees are even eligible for accumulated sick pay.


----------



## DRider85 (Nov 19, 2016)

Uberguyken said:


> Maybe because Uber ignored Ab5 you think that court ruling even caused them to raise an eyebrow?


my friend said it's official


----------



## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

SuzeCB said:


> What's the minimum wage for tipped employees?


CA does not allow employers to pay a lower minimum wage to tipped employees.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

SHalester said:


> well, yes, that is what I assumed you meant, but wanted to make sure first. In calif, that is not how tips would work.
> 
> The basic rule of *tips* is that they belong *to* the *employee*, not the *employer*. Under *California* law, an *employer* cannot take any part of a *tip* that's left for an *employee*. ... Employers must pay *employees* at least the *California* minimum wage for each hour worked, in addition *to* any *tips* they may receive.
> 
> Just so the wild speculation has some basis in reality.


thanks for the correction,, I was relying on my knowledge regarding tipped employees in Maryland and Florida and extrapolating to the whole country

I do believe that Uber will either beat this thing and continue to treat us all including californians as contractors or they will raise rates to cover the additional cost.. or they will pull out of California. They are under a great deal of pressure from their stockholders to show some progress toward profitability. The big question in my mind is will the customers put up with increased rates?


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

observer said:


> The amount of hours worked weekly doesn't have anything to do with unemployment or any other employee benefit except paid medical.
> 
> Part time employees are even eligible for accumulated sick pay.


Its clear I dont know California law. All Im trying to say is that Uber will find a way to minimize the expense of employees, if in fact they end up with employees


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

oldfart said:


> Its clear I dont know California law. All Im trying to say is that Uber will find a way to minimize the expense of employees, if in fact they end up with employees


Or, they'll figure out a way of making drivers true independent contractors.


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## nurburgringsf (Aug 26, 2016)

Out of all the posts on this thread there was exactly one poster who stayed on topic and provided good insight from the NYC situation.

Most of the posts here got to talking about tipping, real estate, pizza delivery, and W4 forms.


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

oldfart said:


> thanks for the correction,, I was relying on my knowledge regarding tipped employees in Maryland and Florida and extrapolating to the whole country
> 
> I do believe that Uber will either beat this thing and continue to treat us all including californians as contractors or they will raise rates to cover the additional cost.. or they will pull out of California. They are under a great deal of pressure from their stockholders to show some progress toward profitability. The big question in my mind is will the customers put up with increased rates?


They will get rid of some drivers and go up on the rates .


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

nurburgringsf said:


> Out of all the posts on this thread there was exactly one poster who stayed on topic and provided good insight from the NYC situation.
> 
> Most of the posts here got to talking about tipping, real estate, pizza delivery, and W4 forms.


Depends on how you look at it.

The NYC situation has little to do with the topic since drivers in NYC aren't employees.

Nor are they in California.


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## CJfrom619 (Apr 27, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> You are working for someone else.
> 
> Uber has the power to shut down your "business" anytime it wants. They set your rates. They make all the rules for your business.
> 
> ...


?? What else are you looking for in a job like this? Work your own hours and ability to decline any work offers?? If your agree to their rates and rules of business then where is the issue?


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

DRider85 said:


> The court ruled us employees. Why are you guys taking this as a joke?


what court did this?? 
all I can find is a Public Utilities Commission memo that says for the purposes of enforcing CPUC regulations they are going to act as if drivers are employees

_"Thus, for now, TNC drivers are presumed to be employees and the Commission must ensure that TNCs comply with those requirements that are applicable to the employees of an entity subject to the Commission's jurisdiction". _

the drivers should be employees, the CPUC document said.

I also found this

_"Just because the test is hard doesn't mean we will not be able to pass it," Tony West, Uber's head lawyer, told reporters this fall. _

and this

_"A Barclays analysis suggested that the law might cost Uber and Lyft over $3,500 per California driver "_

If a full time driver does 10 rides a day, 5 days a week, thats 50 x 50 = 2500 rides a year. Less than $1.50 per ride, taken out of our income or added to the customers fare takes care of it.



observer said:


> Or, they'll figure out a way of making drivers true independent contractors.


exactly...I think thats the more likely outcome


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

oldfart said:


> They are under a great deal of pressure from their stockholders to show some progress toward profitability. The big question in my mind is will the customers put up with increased rates?


There is a LOT of businesses closing in Cali.
Lots.



CJfrom619 said:


> ?? What else are you looking for in a job like this? Work your own hours and ability to decline any work offers?? If your agree to their rates and rules of business then where is the issue?


Take the unemployment.
Sharpen old skills, gain new ones.
Wait till the attack on civilization by China and Antifa is over.
Get a decent job.


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

To me in a nutshell, this can only be an improvement, both Uber and Lyft have been ripping drivers off for years now matter how you break it down, now will some lose their ability to drive yes, but there is always too many drivers anyway, if I am out there working I want to work not sit at the airport for 4 hours for a shitty job, if I lose my ability to drive where I am at it's a blessing, I'll find something else to do during my retirement years. I think you are lucky to be drivers in Ca., soon you will see why, just like in NYC you will start doing much better but some will lose their ability to drive, I get it.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

The Gift of Fish said:


> CA does not allow employers to pay a lower minimum wage to tipped employees.


Nice


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

LetsBeSmart said:


> To me in a nutshell, this can only be an improvement, both Uber and Lyft have been ripping drivers off for years now matter how you break it down, now will some lose their ability to drive yes, but there is always too many drivers anyway, if I am out there working I want to work not sit at the airport for 4 hours for a shitty job, if I lose my ability to drive where I am at it's a blessing, I'll find something else to do during my retirement years. I think you are lucky to be drivers in Ca., soon you will see why, just like in NYC you will start doing much better but some will lose their ability to drive, I get it.


An improvement in your eyes. Do you really think Uber and Lyft will stop ripping people off if they have to make them employees. Big deal the lucky ones that get to stay on will have their minimum wage job and will be tied to what ever U/L want to do schedule wise. I make more than min wage right now, I drive when I want, and if I don't like the rates I am being paid in a specific market I don't drive in that market.

California is a joke, it wants to control and regulate everything, and don't forget, to tax everything. In my eyes this is far from an improvement. But hey we are all entitled to our own views and like everything what works for one may not work for everyone.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

I have to correct one thing. I've seen a bunch of posts about mileage reimbursement. Your employer does NOT have to reimburse you for mileage at the federal rate. I work for a state agency and if I use my own car I only get 35 cents a mile for trips over 50 miles.


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

FLKeys said:


> An improvement in your eyes. Do you really think Uber and Lyft will stop ripping people off if they have to make them employees. Big deal the lucky ones that get to stay on will have their minimum wage job and will be tied to what ever U/L want to do schedule wise. I make more than min wage right now, I drive when I want, and if I don't like the rates I am being paid in a specific market I don't drive in that market.
> 
> California is a joke, it wants to control and regulate everything, and don't forget, to tax everything. In my eyes this is far from an improvement. But hey we are all entitled to our own views and like everything what works for one may not work for everyone.


It won't be minimum wage even by Cal. standards, you will probably do like NYC average 2000 to 3000 per week the ones who get to stay. Uber and Lyft have been ripping off drivers for a long time, maybe not you but most of us, this is what they get and you watch it will be a big improvement with service improving and all, now we'll just have to wait and see, there will be bugs that will need fixing but it will work. A lot of happy drivers making a living and customers who will like the service improvement but the rates will go up. I wish it was happening in Florida.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> Nor are they in California.


ok, u know more than a few members have stated calif drivers ARE employees. We ain't, no judge has issued orders and CPUC is a toothless agency. But those details don't stop a member from thinking we ARE employees due to AB5 and drivel from CPUC.

We are employees when the W4 are mailed out. Period.



Disgusted Driver said:


> Your employer does NOT have to reimburse you for mileage at the federal rate


true. but most corporations go with what the IRS sets to make things simpler.


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## Ylinks (Apr 22, 2019)

The people of California were very happy to have convenient rides and food delivery, but they felt bad that the poor rideshare drivers were underpaid. So through their elected representatives and courts they decided to help the oppressed drivers. Uber, etc., should just do as the people have demanded and pay the drivers. The people will be very happy to see that their drivers now have shinny new cars, $100 pairs of shoes and $60 haircuts. So happy, in fact, that they won't mind in the least that their food delivery which used to cost $6 now costs $18.

Problem solved!


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

SHalester said:


> ok, u know more than a few members have stated calif drivers ARE employees. We ain't, no judge has issued orders and CPUC is a toothless agency. But those details don't stop a member from thinking we ARE employees due to AB5 and drivel from CPUC.
> 
> We are employees when the W4 are mailed out. Period.
> 
> ...


I have to admit didn't even look it up recently, but it's gonna happen, I can feel it, 10-4. Ca. a head of it's time, I am proud of them just like NYC, AB5 take care of you low end workers they are important.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

LetsBeSmart said:


> I have to admit didn't even look it up, but it's gonna happen, I can feel it, 10-4. Ca. a head of it's time, I am proud of them just like NYC.


..doesn't matter by Nov it will be reversed via initiative.


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## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

SHalester said:


> ..doesn't matter by Nov it will be reversed via initiative.


Of course it will have bugs that both sides will deal with but in the end those of us who did it full time will benefit and are great drivers, I am sure number of rides and rating very important.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> ok, u know more than a few members have stated calif drivers ARE employees. We ain't, no judge has issued orders and CPUC is a toothless agency. But those details don't stop a member from thinking we ARE employees due to AB5 and drivel from CPUC.
> 
> We are employees when the W4 are mailed out. Period.
> 
> ...


Yea, yea.

I guess that's why Uber has to have a license issued by the toothless PUC. 



SHalester said:


> ..doesn't matter by Nov it will be reversed via initiative.


Don't hold your breath.

     :rollseyes::rollseyes::rollseyes:


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> I guess that's why Uber has to have a license issued by the toothless PUC


well, the CPUC has made a proclamation. And what exactly has happened so far? From this drivers point of view; nothing.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> well, the CPUC has made a proclamation. And what exactly has happened so far? From this drivers point of view; nothing.


You know as well as I do that these things take time.

Those agencies take way too long to get anything done.

They really should treat Uber just like any other transportation company they regulate.


----------



## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

SHalester said:


> well, the CPUC has made a proclamation. And what exactly has happened so far? From this drivers point of view; nothing.


We'll see, have you looked at NYC with their minimum and how it is working out?


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

LetsBeSmart said:


> We'll see, have you looked at NYC with their minimum and how it is working out?


actually I have been 'reading' here about that. NYC, they are not employees, tho. And it wasn't a state law that resulted in the change, aye? It was the equivalence of CPUC that did the changing.

And I have cited NYC as an example of becoming employees will not be all honey and rainbows. A search will bare that out, yeah?

And if I believe what I read here I'm an official employee today. My employer won't be happy with me since I haven't gone online since 3/18, but I did submit my annual vehicle inspection just this morning; got tired of getting daily reminders via email and txt. sheesh.

Now where is that Uber/Raiser W4 form.


----------



## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

SHalester said:


> actually I have been 'reading' here about that. NYC, they are not employees, tho. And it wasn't a state law that resulted in the change, aye? It was the equivalence of CPUC that did the changing.
> 
> And I have cited NYC as an example of becoming employees will not be all honey and rainbows. A search will bare that out, yeah?
> 
> ...


I did a little worse than you not online since 3-15. When you'll figure it out please let me know.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Guys the law may say $13.00 an hour for California, but...

Federal law states that an employer may not require the employee to kick back to their employer and cause them to make less than min wage.

Papa Johns lost a national lawsuit where their delivery drivers (using their own car) failed to make enough in tips to cover their mileage... which pushed them under min wage.

Sure it settles out of court but papa changed their policies becasuse they already lost the lawsuit once.

All these deductible miles....

All of them would be deducted off what you are paid, and your pay had to equal $13.00 after that:

California goes above and beyond that requirement and just says employees must reimburse all expenses (no matter how much the employee makes the employer must reimburse them)

however Uber being Uber... when employee status is forced on them, you'll be min wage. However true min wage is min wage after expenses, which is like $22 an Hour.

https://hrwatchdog.calchamber.com/2018/12/irs-announces-2019-standard-mileage-rates/


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## DRider85 (Nov 19, 2016)

So are we gonna get shifts in California? That’s my question.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Disgusted Driver said:


> I have to correct one thing. I've seen a bunch of posts about mileage reimbursement. Your employer does NOT have to reimburse you for mileage at the federal rate. I work for a state agency and if I use my own car I only get 35 cents a mile for trips over 50 miles.


You should have been able to charge from the first mile.

If an employee contests the 35 cent reimbursement it's up to the *employer* to prove the expenses were less.

Likewise if an employee can prove that their expenses are higher than the IRS reimbursement rate, the employee must be paid the higher rate.

I'd check in to why your employer is paying less. You might have three years of unpaid mileage differential coming.


----------



## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

observer said:


> You should have been able to charge from the first mile.
> 
> If an employee contests the 35 cent reimbursement it's up to the *employer* to prove the expenses were less.
> 
> ...


Sorry, don't think I was clear, for short trips they pay us something close to the fed rate.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Disgusted Driver said:


> Sorry, don't think I was clear, for short trips they pay us something close to the fed rate.


I figured that since you said after 50 but it doesn't make sense.

What expense drops after 50 miles? Why not 10 miles? Why not 100 miles.

The 50 mile mark is arbitrary and I can't really think of a reason why it was picked.

That's why it would be safer for Uber, or any other company, to use the IRS rate and most companies do.

But like I said if questioned, it's up to the employer to prove it was reasonable.

If Uber was to pick a lower number, I can guarantee you they would have thousands of lawsuits stating it was unreasonable and they would have to fight each lawsuit individually.

It's much easier for Uber to pay the IRS rate then deduct that rate as an expense on their taxes.


----------



## LetsBeSmart (Mar 12, 2020)

Ylinks said:


> The people of California were very happy to have convenient rides and food delivery, but they felt bad that the poor rideshare drivers were underpaid. So through their elected representatives and courts they decided to help the oppressed drivers. Uber, etc., should just do as the people have demanded and pay the drivers. The people will be very happy to see that their drivers now have shinny new cars, $100 pairs of shoes and $60 haircuts. So happy, in fact, that they won't mind in the least that their food delivery which used to cost $6 now costs $18.
> 
> Problem solved!


You gots to pay homeboy..........


----------



## Gigworker (Oct 23, 2019)

Here in California , nothing has changed for us drivers. Until we are treated like employees ( remember we have to take the bad alone with the good benefits) we will remain independent contractors, which will make 80% of the drivers happy. The state will not be happy If we remain independent, because they have to supplement the benefits( health insurance, food stamps, etc.) they are paying out to some of the drivers. If drivers do become employees, they might make a little more money, but their health insurance and food bill might go higher, plus they will have to answer to a boss, and keep a schedule.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

Uber California Employee Handbook
Subject to change.

Employees must have a car no older than 2 years old from date of manufacture. It is the employees responsibility to insure their car can operate within the allowable mileage reimbursement amount.
Employees must accept every ride sent to them, this includes all shared rides.
Employees must wait at every stop requested by passenger.
Employees will be scheduled 4 hour blocks of time, it is the employees responsibility to be at the specified starting point at the start of their shift. Being late will void this block of time. Your are not paid to travel to your start point
Employees will not be paid to return home from their current destination at the end of their block of time.
Employees will be reimbursed 20¢ per mile driven starting from the beginning of their block of time to the ending of their block of time. Any miles driven in excess of those designated by Uber will not be paid. After rider departs vehicle Uber will direct you to a place to pull over and park while waiting your next assignment.
Employees will not be reimbursed for traffic and or parking violations.
Employees must wear long pants, button down shirt, neck tie, and dress shoes at all times while driving for Uber.
Here is your minimum wage and 20¢ per mile mileage reimbursement job.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

lost me at 2 years and long pants. Sorry.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

observer said:


> I figured that since you said after 50 but it doesn't make sense.
> 
> What expense drops after 50 miles? Why not 10 miles? Why not 100 miles.
> 
> ...


If we go more than 50 miles, what they really want us to do is use a fleet vehicle and carpool.

I don't see how uber could possibly make it if they gave us irs rate. At 57.5 a mile that would be a huge chunk of a long ride on the highway. Oh wait, I know how they could do it, raise the rates to something reasonable!


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Disgusted Driver said:


> If we go more than 50 miles, what they really want us to do is use a fleet vehicle and carpool.
> 
> I don't see how uber could possibly make it if they gave us irs rate. At 57.5 a mile that would be a huge chunk of a long ride on the highway. Oh wait, I know how they could do it, raise the rates to something reasonable!


Ahhhh ok. They should just tell you to use a pool vehicle. I think they are opening themselves up to a lawsuit.

Part of the cost of doing business. Ubers business model doesn't make sense. Operating a national/international taxi/bus service just isn't that profitable.

Too many state, local and federal regulations to follow.

Uber was really just a way for Kalanick to build a business. Milk it for as much as possible, as long as possible then move on to something else.

Uber could survive but as a medium to high end service not as a bus service to the masses.


----------



## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

SHalester said:


> An example is fast food worker. NO customers in the store, you still get paid even if you are twiddling your thumbs......


And if there's anything to clean, organize or prep, the manager will ask you to do so.

No work to do? No customers around?

Get sent home.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

FLKeys said:


> Uber California Employee Handbook
> Subject to change.
> 
> Employees must have a car no older than 2 years old from date of manufacture. It is the employees responsibility to insure their car can operate within the allowable mileage reimbursement amount.
> ...


actually that's not as far off as you might think it is:

And a surprisingly large amount of that isn't out of the realm of possibility.

The only things I suspect are off is the mileage reimbursement figure and the 4 hour block. They will need to put drivers in 6/12 hour blocks and the law is pretty clear that employees need to be comped the entire standard mileage rate (both federal and California law it seems)

But if your an employee I think most of the rest of that is Probobly accurate,

Except the dress code. Uber would Probobly issue a uniform hoodie and skinny jeans...

cause Uber....

but if they are forced to pay for time between ping they are gonna force 100% acceptance plus waiting for all requested stops. That's a no brainer right there.

However they would also be required to give you a lunch break as well on the shift.


----------



## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Disgusted Driver said:


> I have to correct one thing. I've seen a bunch of posts about mileage reimbursement. Your employer does NOT have to reimburse you for mileage at the federal rate. I work for a state agency and if I use my own car I only get 35 cents a mile for trips over 50 miles.


Employers don't have to reimburse AT ALL. Most do, however, at some rate.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SuzeCB said:


> Employers don't have to reimburse AT ALL. Most do, however, at some rate.


In California they do.


----------



## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> The only things I suspect are off is the mileage reimbursement figure and the 4 hour block. They will need to put drivers in 6/12 hour blocks and the law is pretty clear that employees need to be comped the entire standard mileage rate (both federal and California law it seems)


There is no federal law that requires reimbursement at the standard rate, that is only an option for the administrative convenience of the employer. The employer may also reimburse actual expenses based upon substantiation by the employee.

This is also the case in CA:

https://www.timesheets.com/blog/2015/12/mileage-reimbursement-california/








Mileage reimbursement considerations under California law


Expense reimbursement may seem like a small issue in comparison with the other areas of liability facing California employers, but the exposure for not




www.californiaemploymentlawreport.com





U/L will almost certainly not reimburse at the standard rate, because that includes a $0.26/mile depreciation component, which is way out of line with what a RS driver should be incurring. If a driver substantiates expenses at (or above!) the standard rate, U/L will likely no longer employ their services, instead favoring drivers that are driving cars that are lower value and less expensive to operate.

Which is what sane RS drivers should already be doing.

Bear would guess U/L will set mileage reimbursement at around $0.28/mile in CA and require drivers who want to claim higher rates to substantiate actual expenses by submitting all receipts and using Blue Book-based calculations for per-mile depreciation. And then after that driver gets reimbursed at the higher substantiated rate, U/L will only schedule them to work at periods of maximum demand where the surge rate U/L is charging makes that driver profitable.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Jon Stoppable said:


> There is no federal law that requires reimbursement at the standard rate, that is only an option for the administrative convenience of the employer. The employer may also reimburse actual expenses based upon substantiation by the employee.
> 
> This is also the case in CA:
> 
> ...


From your own article.

California employers do not have to reimburse the IRS rate. They may instead reimburse actual expenses incurred. If they choose to do it this way, they must keep meticulous records of mileage and receipts. Using the IRS rate is generally easier, however.

From the California Labor Code:



> 2802. (a) An employer shall indemnify his or her employee for all necessary expenditures or losses incurred by the employee in direct consequence of the discharge of his or her duties, or of his or her obedience to the directions of the employer, even though unlawful, unless the employee, at the time of obeying the directions, believed them to be unlawful.
> (b) All awards made by a court or by the Division of Labor
> Standards Enforcement for reimbursement of necessary expenditures under this section shall carry interest at the same rate as judgments in civil actions. Interest shall accrue from the date on which the employee incurred the necessary expenditure or loss.
> (c) For purposes of this section, the term "necessary expenditures or losses" shall include all reasonable costs, including, but not limited to, attorney's fees incurred by the employee enforcing the rights granted by this section.


It is up to the *employer *to prove.

"If they choose to do it this way, they must keep meticulous records of mileage and receipts. Using the IRS rate is generally easier."

Uber would have to keep individual records on hundreds of thousands of drivers.

Then expect thousands of lawsuits from drivers that weren't reimbursed correctly.

"It is important to note that while this amount can be negotiated, the employee still is unable to waive their right to reimbursement of their actual costs as mentioned above"


----------



## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

observer said:


> It is up to the *employer *to prove.
> 
> "If they choose to do it this way, they must keep meticulous records of mileage and receipts. Using the IRS rate is generally easier."
> 
> ...


Uber already keeps records on hundreds of thousands of drivers. I mean every trip has detailed GPS tracking stored, what, forever? That is big data. A handful of gas receipts per week and a shop receipt once a month, that is not big data, just a bit of basic OCR. And most drivers won't even consider trying to go for actual costs, because their actual costs will be lower than the reimbursement rate that U/L will set.

It's not that hard, they simply offer drivers a rate that is very slightly higher rate than the rate they figure they need to retain the drivers they want. They already know every driver's car, and therefore their actual reasonable operating costs and depreciation rate. This is a simple bit of data mining combined with a bit of Blue Book lookups and then U/L already know what the current drivers' weighted-average per-mile cost should be.

For example, a full-time driver with a brand-new Prius, $0.10 per mile depreciation (bear can show this math if you need) and $3/gal (or whatever CA's absurd price is these days) at 50mpg, $0.06/mi gas. Bear doubts maintenance is more than $0.10/mile on a brand-new Prius, and the extra RS insurance for a full-timer is trivial per mile (U/L already pays all of the booked mile insurance, so this is only for deadhead miles, which U/L shouldn't reimburse anyway because they will require drivers to have zero deadhead miles).

Say $0.28/mile. Why should they reimburse any higher for X? Older and non-hybrid cars will have higher gas and maintenance costs but lower depreciation per mile. It will all work out to much less than $0.57/mile.

If the driver doesn't like that rate, they will be free to submit actual receipts. U/L will reimburse, then not schedule that driver to work so much. No lawsuit required, the employee has the option to claim the higher expense at their own burden. They can't say I was too lazy to submit receipts for three years, so here is my lawsuit now that I've suddenly found all of my receipts. Bear hopes that would be laughed out of court. But in CA, hey, who knows?


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Uber already keeps records on hundreds of thousands of drivers. I mean every trip has detailed GPS tracking stored, what, forever? That is big data. A handful of gas receipts per week and a shop receipt once a month, that is not big data, just a bit of basic OCR. And most drivers won't even consider trying to go for actual costs, because their actual costs will be lower than the reimbursement rate that U/L will set.
> 
> It's not that hard, they simply offer drivers a rate that is very slightly higher rate than the rate they figure they need to retain the drivers they want. They already know every driver's car, and therefore their actual reasonable operating costs and depreciation rate. This is a simple bit of data mining combined with a bit of Blue Book lookups and then U/L already know what the current drivers' weighted-average per-mile cost should be.
> 
> ...


You are assuming Uber/Lyft will be allowed to keep using older vehicles. Too much smog.

They will be phased out.

Most vehicles used by drivers are fairly new because the older cars take a lot of abuse.

California is also looking at forcing Uber/Lyft to upgrade the drivers vehicles to electric, starting in 2023. By 2030 replacing 400,000 gas vehicles to electric.

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...re-electric-cars-for-uber-and-lyft-here-s-how
"For example, a full-time driver with a brand-new Prius, $0.10 per mile depreciation (bear can show this math if you need) and $3/gal (or whatever CA's absurd price is these days) at 50mpg, $0.06/mi gas. Bear doubts maintenance is more than $0.10/mile on a brand-new Prius, and the extra RS insurance for a full-timer is trivial per mile (U/L already pays all of the booked mile insurance, so this is only for deadhead miles, which U/L shouldn't reimburse anyway because they will require drivers to have zero deadhead miles)."

If Uber customers wanted to be picked up in a Prius they may as well call a taxi.

Part of the Uber "experience" is they want a nicer car.

Older cars will be given negative review after negative review until they are gone.

If Uber chooses to pay a lower rate, expect lawsuits to pop up almost immediately.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ColdRider said:


> And if there's anything to clean, organize or prep, the manager will ask you to do so.


well aware since I was a 'shift manager' for years on a fast food joint. Certainly, some cleaning and odd stuff to do. But a sustained no customer and minimum crew means a lot of standing around in between.

So my example was and is valid in reality and experience. And it applies to 'if', in calif, we 'become' employees. Once we go online, we will be paid hourly. Which was the point I was making.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

Jon Stoppable said:


> There is no federal law that requires reimbursement at the standard rate, that is only an option for the administrative convenience of the employer. The employer may also reimburse actual expenses based upon substantiation by the employee.
> 
> This is also the case in CA:
> 
> ...


Ok... in NYC, the drivers have to make a minimum pay per hour. In theory. I BELIEVE the rate is $17.22 after expenses, which would include insurance (they provide their own & Uber doesn't get the Booking Fee), and mileage allowance.

They still get miles & minutes, but the rates are higher to make sure they make enough to at LEAST cover all of this.

Again, in theory. I drive NJ, so I have no idea how it actually shakes out.

How is CA dealing with minimum wage requirements for drivers and expenses?


----------



## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

observer said:


> You are assuming Uber/Lyft will be allowed to keep using older vehicles. Too much smog.


Bear did not make that assumption; bear used a brand-new Prius in bear's per-mile example.

U/L could just as easily mandate that all drivers use an U/L-owned hybrid fleet, as that would be much cheaper than paying out $0.57/mile.

U/L are dumb but they ain't stupid. They aren't going to reimburse drivers more than they need to.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

SuzeCB said:


> how is CA dealing with minimum wage requirements for drivers and expenses?


it isn't.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Bear did not make that assumption; bear used a brand-new Prius in bear's per-mile example.
> 
> U/L could just as easily mandate that all drivers use an U/L-owned hybrid fleet, as that would be much cheaper than paying out $0.57/mile.
> 
> U/L are dumb but they ain't stupid. They aren't going to reimburse drivers more than they need to.


I think the older vehicle may have been from another conversation we had.

They may just go the U/L owned fleet route.

That has always been their long term objective.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> They may just go the U/L owned fleet route.


....as long as it is NOT a precious prius.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

ColdRider said:


> And if there's anything to clean, organize or prep, the manager will ask you to do so.
> 
> No work to do? No customers around?
> 
> Get sent home.


I would expect any manager to keep employees busy or they wouldn't be a manager very long.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

observer said:


> I think the older vehicle may have been from another conversation we had.
> 
> They may just go the U/L owned fleet route.
> 
> That has always been their long term objective.


Why would U/L want that expense? Look at the additional expense of coordinating issuing cars to drivers every day, cleaning them, maintaining them, daily safety inspections to verify all lights and everything is working. Storage of the vehicles when not in use.


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

observer said:


> I would expect any manager to keep employees busy or they wouldn't be a manager very long.


I worked in retail sales before I graduated and was hired at my current job.

My sales manager was a savage. I sold mobile phones but used to sell computers before that. If there was nobody in the phone section but people at computers, I'd get asked to help. Crank out a few sales and up-sell some customers to upgrade their phones or add a line.

He'd pay me back with the schedule I wanted and sometimes threw in gift cards. I was given a great deal on a macbook pro. Sometimes I miss those perks.

But if there was nobody in the store, this happened during snowstorms or extreme rain. Freezing temps as well. I would either be wiping down demo items, bringing down-stock organizing inventory.

Nothing else to do? I'd be asked if I wanted to go home. They didn't care if I was a full-timer. No business in the store and I'm costing them money.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

ColdRider said:


> I worked in retail sales before I graduated and was hired at my current job.
> 
> My sales manager was a savage. I sold mobile phones but used to sell computers before that. If there was nobody in the phone section but people at computers, I'd get asked to help. Crank out a few sales and up-sell some customers to upgrade their phones or add a line.
> 
> ...


Yuppp, exactly.



FLKeys said:


> Why would U/L want that expense? Look at the additional expense of coordinating issuing cars to drivers every day, cleaning them, maintaining them, daily safety inspections to verify all lights and everything is working. Storage of the vehicles when not in use.


Their long term goal has always been to have no drivers and own their own autonomous cars but reality got in the way.

They will get there but it won't happen soon and it may not be Uber that gets there.



SHalester said:


> ....as long as it is NOT a precious prius.


WHAT'S WRONG WITH PRII?

I own one.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> I own one.


...so do I. Nuff said¿


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

FLKeys said:


> Why would U/L want that expense? Look at the additional expense of coordinating issuing cars to drivers every day, cleaning them, maintaining them, daily safety inspections to verify all lights and everything is working. Storage of the vehicles when not in use.


At $0.28/mile, they probably don't. Probably not at $0.30, or even $0.35.

At some point though, they will decide it's cheaper to own their fleet. Bear feels like that point would be well under $0.57.

It's a basic buy vs. lease decision. Effectively, by paying a mileage rate, they are leasing your vehicle on a per-mile basis. At some point, it's cheaper for them to buy. They likely have a team of financial analysts to work on decisions like that.

Or they may decide to pay minimum wage (at non-surge times) plus $0.57, knowing that the value of labor is actually higher than minimum, but figuring that it's easier than a lower mileage rate (keep in mind they would still have to reject drivers with higher-than-standard actuals, like the guy bear used to see at the aeroport driving a late-model king cab F150). So congrats, you are now working for minimum wage ($13?) plus your expense arbitrage. Bear is already doing that well in a much lower-end market than CA.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

FLKeys said:


> Why would U/L want that expense? Look at the additional expense of coordinating issuing cars to drivers every day, cleaning them, maintaining them, daily safety inspections to verify all lights and everything is working. Storage of the vehicles when not in use.





Jon Stoppable said:


> At $0.28/mile, they probably don't. Probably not at $0.30, or even $0.35.
> 
> At some point though, they will decide it's cheaper to own their fleet. Bear feels like that point would be well under $0.57.
> 
> ...


I would think that they would buy enough vehicles to keep busy at some percentage of market, lets say 75%. The other 25% would be on call drivers. They would keep company owned vehicles running as close to 100% of the time as possible.

By owning their own vehicles they will also pick up the 50-60% (or whatever a driver gets) and offset their own costs with that money.

They would also cherry pick the best fares for themselves.

More importantly, Uber would not operate their vehicles at a loss. They would raise fares.


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

observer said:


> I would think that they would buy enough vehicles to keep busy at some percentage of market, lets say 75%. The other 25% would be on call drivers. They would keep company owned vehicles running as close to 100% of the time as possible.
> 
> By owning their own vehicles they will also pick up the 50-60% (or whatever a driver gets) and offset their own costs with that money.
> 
> ...


What you say actually makes sense if Uber/Lyft are forced to make everyone an employee and it will be another nail in the coffin for the pro AB5 crowd.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

FLKeys said:


> Why would U/L want that expense? Look at the additional expense of coordinating issuing cars to drivers every day, cleaning them, maintaining them, daily safety inspections to verify all lights and everything is working. Storage of the vehicles when not in use.


This is what I have been saying about the autonomous vehicles. If they were to ever get autonomous vehicles doing ride share, those cars would be relegated only to executive accounts.

They don't want Starlight turning tricks in the back of the cars. And they don't want Scarface doings drug deals out of them, either. And let's not even get into how much they're looking forward to the idea of the college kids puking. Any cars owned by Uber or left will be more expensive Uber or left will be more Expensive than paying drivers to use their own vehicles.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Looks like Lyft is onboard with electrifying the fleet by 2030.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/lyft-electric-cars-2030-170006698.html


Fusion_LUser said:


> What you say actually makes sense if Uber/Lyft are forced to make everyone an employee and it will be another nail in the coffin for the pro AB5 crowd.


Lyft could quickly deactivate drivers just by deactivating older cars.

As TNCs are forced to abide by environmental regulations they will require only hybrid or electric then electric only.

With less vehicles available there would be less drivers and more work for the drivers that qualify.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

if they pay me $40/hr I'll start driving Uber again


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## Lute Byrt (Feb 20, 2020)

SHalester said:


> ok, u know more than a few members have stated calif drivers ARE employees. We ain't, no judge has issued orders and CPUC is a toothless agency. But those details don't stop a member from thinking we ARE employees due to AB5 and drivel from CPUC.
> 
> We are employees when the W4 are mailed out. Period.
> 
> ...


They might be toothless but they aren't spineless...


----------



## FaceBob (Jun 21, 2020)

Bart McCoy said:


> if they pay me $40/hr I'll start driving Uber again


If u got 40$ per you'd be a dental hygienist with certifications and a future


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## sanchez15 (May 16, 2016)

Galveston said:


> I can't believe y'all are still complaining about this. We are all screwed for being independent contractors. At least California drivers will have some protections including unemployment!


 To get unemployment you need to be fired.You have to be a complete screw up get fired from uber. It rarely happens


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

sanchez15 said:


> To get unemployment you need to be fired.You have to be a complete screw up get fired from uber. It rarely happens


On the contrary, it's harder to get unemployment if you are fired.

If you are fired for misconduct it's really hard to get UI. EDD will have an interview with both the employee and employer to determine eligibility.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

If Uber transitioned to an Uber owned fleet it would require buying somewhere in the neighborhood of...

50 bajillion in cars...


Uber has never shown any interest in putting in a bigger up front cost to lowering operating expenses down the line. If they had they would have bought the nessiary bonds for self insurance and saved a fortune. (Self insurance bonds are also a very firm line item on their valuation)

But Uber has never done that.



More than likely Uber is going to move their headquarters and shutter in California, completely.


Then they can get all their idiot fanboy drivers and customers to protest until the law is changed:

Ala Austin...


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> If Uber transitioned to an Uber owned fleet it would require buying somewhere in the neighborhood of...
> 
> 50 bajillion in cars...
> 
> ...


Self insurance isn't that hard to do, my company did that but we owned all the vehicles, we interviewed and checked the driving records of all the drivers. All the drivers were our _employees._

Without owning the vehicles itself, I don't know if CADMV would even allow Uber to self insure.

Our self insured policy also had a million dollar limit. We paid out anything under a million dollars out of pocket.

Insurance only kicked in on claims over a million dollars. We also had an on staff lawyer and a group of lawyers on retainer.

With Ubers hundreds of thousands of drivers there must be millions of dollars of accident costs.

Insurance risk is not that easy, even for professionals.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2019/11/08/547942.htm


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## RetiredArmyGuy (Dec 15, 2018)

ColdRider said:


> *lmfao you better make sure to punch in on time bro!
> View attachment 473408
> *


And pay your taxes to the governor


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