# James River Insurance to dump Uber



## SFRichard1 (Jul 13, 2019)

James River is the insurer in 20 states, including CA.

James River Group to Cancel Auto Insurance for Uber Affiliate Rasier LLC -- 2nd Update
6:42 PM ET 10/8/19 | Dow Jones


By Stephen Nakrosis 

James River Group Holdings (JRVR) on Tuesday said it delivered a notice of early cancellation of all insurance policies issued to Rasier LLC, its largest customer. 

Rasier is an affiliate of Uber Technologies Inc. (UBER). 

James River said the policies will be canceled as of Dec. 31. 

"This account has not met our expectations for profitability, and we think it best to terminate the underwriting relationship as of year end," said J. Adam Abram, the chairman and chief executive of James River.

...

A spokesperson for Uber said "James River is one of four insurers Uber works with in the U.S.--the other three are Farmers Insurance Group, Progressive Corp. and Allstate Corp. James River insures the ride-hailer's drivers in 20 states, D.C. and Puerto Rico." The company anticipates bringing on another insurer to replace James River but didn't provide details. 

In its IPO registration, Uber cautioned about the rising cost of insurance and changing terms of coverage with carriers as a potential risk factor to the business. Insurance costs related to the company's ride-hailing business increased $1.3 billion from 2016 to 2017, as a result of more Uber drivers driving more miles and a jump in insurance rates. Costs increased again from 2017 to 2018, according to the filing.


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## njn (Jan 23, 2016)

here comes the $2500 deductibles.


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

"James River is one of four insurers Uber works with in the U.S.--
the other three are Farmers Insurance Group
Progressive Corp.and 
Allstate Corp.

Uber anticipates bringing on another insurer to replace James River but didn't provide details.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/james-...surance-for-uber-affiliate-rasier-11570569015


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## O-Side Uber (Jul 26, 2017)

It was a bad idea to lower driver rates and hire so many inexperienced drivers like U/L is guilty of. I can only imagine how many at fault claims were made against James River! Of course it wasn’t going to profitable!


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

More I think about it Uber/Lyft should end carrying insurance, and place it on the driver to obtain commercial policies. Of course, raising the pay for the drivers to cover said expense. Drivers can then select their premiums and deductibles. And as an IC the driver should be responsible for their own insurance.

From an Uber/Lyft perspective, this makes it more difficult to shuffle drivers in and out and all of a sudden they aren't as "expendable". As it's more hoops to get signed up. So they probably aren't down. But, it would also eliminate a huge overhead expense. Bet insurance is one of their biggest costs to deal with.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

SFRichard1 said:


> James River is the insurer in 20 states, including CA.
> 
> James River Group to Cancel Auto Insurance for Uber Affiliate Rasier LLC -- 2nd Update
> 6:42 PM ET 10/8/19 | Dow Jones
> ...


" HAPPY NEW YEAR"!

NO INSURANCE.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

DriverMark said:


> More I think about it Uber/Lyft should end carrying insurance, and place it on the driver to obtain commercial policies. Of course, raising the pay for the drivers to cover said expense. Drivers can then select their premiums and deductibles. And as an IC the driver should be responsible for their own insurance.
> 
> From an Uber/Lyft perspective, this makes it more difficult to shuffle drivers in and out and all of a sudden they aren't as "expendable". As it's more hoops to get signed up. So they probably aren't down. But, it would also eliminate a huge overhead expense. Bet insurance is one of their biggest costs to deal with.


From a business perspective doing that would lead to massive losses in customers to uber/lyft.

So from uber's perspective they won't do it.

No part timers,
driver can hand out cards and tak private calls

Either situation is a massive loss to uber,

Personally I think they should to, but they won't.



SFRichard1 said:


> James River is the insurer in 20 states, including CA.
> 
> James River Group to Cancel Auto Insurance for Uber Affiliate Rasier LLC -- 2nd Update
> 6:42 PM ET 10/8/19 | Dow Jones
> ...


James River dropping uber?

Uber should have taken a few billion they were given by investors to set up self insurance (usually requires bonds held by the state) then they could cut out the insurance companies and cut insurance costs

Uber could still charge deductibles to the drivers, chase other companies when they arn't at fault, but wouldn't owe premiums, they would just pay for at-fault accidents out of pocket) (Minus the driver's deductible they would pay to uber)

Instead of paying James river for a policy that includes paying out X million per year, they could instead pay out X milion per year and keep the premiums.

The bonds for self insurance would also be a quantifiable asset that they could have used in their valuations (and one with a definitive face value)

Assuming they kept debt under control their self insurance bonds would be bottom line that the company could never fall below. It would also make them much more valuable in the event someone like Google wanted to get into the game. They could have bought uber and it would have come with the self insurance bonds.

IE

We could get into the ride-share game and pay out $15 billion for self insurance bonds, or buy uber for 15 billion and get uber's self insurance bonds (worth 15 billion).

Makes a buyout a better choice doesn't it?

Now let's say uber has had a few bad years... they get a buyout offer for 10 billion, Uber counters that the bonds alone are $15 billion, Uber's numbers are horrible... and Google still decides to pay 16 billion just for the name and the bonds. That's a lot better than the zero they might be looking at.

And frankly, after a certain point once you get just 300 or 400 cars on the road accidents aren't a _risk_, they are a _guaranteed event_, a calculable cost of doing business. Uber is over this threshold by over a factor of... *1000 times over*.

ALSO...

Come liquidation phase of a bankruptcy, If i'm the guy who is liquidating assets, those bonds are actually a liquidate-able asset.


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

SFRichard1 said:


> James River is the insurer in 20 states, including CA.
> 
> James River Group to Cancel Auto Insurance for Uber Affiliate Rasier LLC -- 2nd Update
> 6:42 PM ET 10/8/19 | Dow Jones
> ...


Looks more like James River is committing euthanasia

James River shares sink 23% after Uber cancellation
https://www.insuranceinsider.com/articles/129314/james-river-shares-sink-23-after-uber-cancellation


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Cold Fusion said:


> Looks more like James River is committing euthanasia
> 
> James River shares sink 23% after Uber cancellation
> https://www.insuranceinsider.com/articles/129314/james-river-shares-sink-23-after-uber-cancellation


James River traditionally insured All of the Bus Tours.

They will be o.k.

( i checked them out When i FIRST started driving Uber years ago.)


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## ABC123DEF (Jun 9, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> From a business perspective doing that would lead to massive losses in customers to uber/lyft.
> 
> So from uber's perspective they won't do it.
> 
> ...


Uber is a technology company.


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

ABC123DEF said:


> Uber is a technology company.


Correct,
uber owns no ground transportation equipment
just an app
that drivers sell their souls
to be apart of,
then curse the mornings.

manage your expectations of an entry level ground transportation shit gig

problem ain't uber


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Cold Fusion said:


> Correct,
> uber owns no ground transportation equipment
> just an app
> that drivers sell their souls
> ...


They own NOTHING.

HAD MILLIONS INVESTED

YET CAN NOT PROFIT !

INVESTMENT ?


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## ABC123DEF (Jun 9, 2015)

Cold Fusion said:


> Correct,
> uber owns no ground transportation equipment
> just an app
> that drivers sell their souls
> ...


Psh. Uber is its OWN worst enemy.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

ABC123DEF said:


> Psh. Uber is it's own worst enemy.


" FIX IT ' TILL IT'S BROKE " !


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

This is the biggest auto insurance account ever in the history of the US, by a sizable margin. James River's stock prices falling is evidence of that. Based on the number of uber vehicles on the road, without any doubts whatsoever. Most companies self insure once they hit 100s of vehicles, if not sooner.

Do you cut a profitable deal with a multi billion dollar company?

DO you drop the biggest insurance contract of all time, ever, while it's profitable?

Or do you cut a money pit that's borderline costing you money because they cheat and lie too much?

I wouldn't be surprised if James River's bottom line _improved_ after dropping uber.

If uber is anything, they are amazing at rewriting contracts to screw you.

The fact that it's taken James Rivers so long to make this decision is the only thing that confuses me.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

James River has lost millions of dollars with Uber. In fact the losses are so great that they are cancelling the insurance policies two months early. This is a big deal. They aren't even willing to wait an extra sixty days. It shows that insurance costs are going to INCREASE for Uber and Lyft which will further erode their chance of ever being profitable. 

Uber and Lyft should have the most massive buying power in the world for insurance. Their drivers are checked with DMV and are safe drivers. But even with all of that, there is incredible liability that is getting more and more expensive each day as smart attorneys see Uber and Lyft as deep pocket defendants. 

Uber and Lyft can not "app" their way out of insurance costs.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Bob Reynolds said:


> James River has lost millions of dollars with Uber. In fact the losses are so great that they are cancelling the insurance policies two months early. This is a big deal. They aren't even willing to wait an extra sixty days. It shows that insurance costs are going to INCREASE for Uber and Lyft which will further erode their chance of ever being profitable.
> 
> Uber and Lyft should have the most massive buying power in the world for insurance. Their drivers are checked with DMV and are safe drivers. But even with all of that, there is incredible liability that is getting more and more expensive each day as smart attorneys see Uber and Lyft as deep pocket defendants.
> 
> Uber and Lyft can not "app" their way out of insurance costs.


I was speculating as much but i had no direct indication information,
care to share a source?


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## everythingsuber (Sep 29, 2015)

Cold Fusion said:


> "James River is one of four insurers Uber works with in the U.S.--
> the other three are Farmers Insurance Group
> Progressive Corp.and
> Allstate Corp.
> ...


Now when Uber said they have 4 insurance companies they were using thats nice. What percentage were James River writing and what percentage is currently being written by the other 3 companies?


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> From a business perspective doing that would lead to massive losses in customers to uber/lyft.
> 
> So from uber's perspective they won't do it.
> 
> ...


Good points......


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## Uber_Yota_916 (May 1, 2017)

Did JRI dump Lyft as well?


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> From a business perspective doing that would lead to massive losses in customers to uber/lyft.
> 
> So from uber's perspective they won't do it.
> 
> ...


I agree, would be very interesting for them to self insure with some sort of catastrophic reinsurance if needed.

Just one problem! Could you imagine having to deal with Rohit on an insurance claim?


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## ABC123DEF (Jun 9, 2015)

Maybe all insurance companies will see Uber as the bag of feces that it is and drop them!


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## Nina2 (Oct 6, 2018)

Uber_Yota_916 said:


> Did JRI dump Lyft as well?


Not yet but they will soon


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## peteyvavs (Nov 18, 2015)

Uber and Lyft would lose 90% of its drivers if they try to place the insurance coverage on drivers. As of right now more than half of drivers don’t carry ride share insurance, most can’t afford commercial insurance on what U/L pays.


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## Buck-a-mile (Nov 2, 2019)

O-Side Uber said:


> It was a bad idea to lower driver rates and hire so many inexperienced drivers like U/L is guilty of. I can only imagine how many at fault claims were made against James River! Of course it wasn't going to profitable!


With the thousand dollar deductible they weren't at much risk.


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