# Minimum wage increase



## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)




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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

GorillaG said:


> I need to make 25 an hour if McDonald is making 15..


If McDonalds employees are making $15, then you should be making $15.
Why is it you think you should be making 25? 
You're better than them?


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## uberxcalgary (Jul 25, 2017)

GorillaG said:


> I drive for uber and minimum wage just went up to 15 $ an hour so now everything is going up services food everything so I was doing the math and driver make about 15hour after expenses so is rate going to increase? Cause I need to make 25 an hour if McDonald is making 15..


 With the minimum wage increases as they are in parts of Canada, going to $14-15 in Alberta, Ontario and other increases in places. You would think people would stop driving Uber and get other jobs.

Unfortunately with wage increases. Companies are going to be hiring less and expecting more of current min wage employees. If anything that will mean more people possibly turning to Uber since finding unskilled work will be even harder.

There would be no reason for them to increase rates to make things better for us if people are still driving at current rates.

Economic growth would mean Uber raising rates to help themselves cover more expenses. Since the expenses are on the drivers. It doesn't affect them the same.


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

GorillaG said:


> Because I have way more expenses than someone who flipping burgers if gas goes up and car washes go up and food goes up then I'm making less than minimum wage economics my friend
> 
> This something that needs to be addressed cause we going to be making like 5 dollars an hour and if add car depreciation we making like -10 and the increase s coming soon on everything..the way I see it uber need to increase pricing to keep up with the economic growth..just like everyone else is starting to do..


But my point is if they were still making $10 then you would be ok with making $15?


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

I made $1 an hour last night...

BEFORE gas and eats...

Maybe I need to look again at...

Giving out free rides...8>O

Rakos


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## Fearmonger (Nov 16, 2017)

Then go get a job at McDonalds


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

Lmfao!!

Okay I’ll make sure to throw extra secret sauce on your big mac when you order uber eats ..lol


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## Dontmakemepullauonyou (Oct 13, 2015)

No way you are making $15 an hour after expenses unless you are in SF or NYC.

I make about $18-25 an hour delivering pizza. That's min wage plus about an average of $10 in tips per hour. That's $18-25 after taxes. I had 17 hours overtime last week those were like $35 hours screw uber never going back. But I do about 30-40 deliveries per 8-9 hour shift so it's not for everyone you gotta be quick hustle def not a job for a slow ant.


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

Cableguynoe said:


> But my point is if they were still making $10 then you would be ok with making $15?


Nah your missing the point if everythig is costing more drivers are making less.. get it..the more minimum goes up the less your dollar is worth less if everything goes up..economics that's how it works..


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

Well to answer your question, Uber has no intention of raising the rates in 2018. 
We might have hope for 2019. 

You gonna stick around?


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

Cableguynoe said:


> Well to answer your question, Uber has no intention of raising the rates in 2018.
> We might have hope for 2019.
> 
> You gonna stick around?


Ahh man !!dammit Donald trump!!!


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## Dontmakemepullauonyou (Oct 13, 2015)

Cableguynoe said:


> Well to answer your question, Uber has no intention of raising the rates in 2018.
> We might have hope for 2019.
> 
> You gonna stick around?


I have a feeling when gas prices spike a lot uber will run promos like their quests but it'll be like "do 10 rides between 4pm-7pm" and you'll get a shell $20 gas card.


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

The year is early yet...

Maybe they will listen...

At the new drivers meetings...8>)

Rakos








PS. Phat chance...8>)


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

I’m go to one of those uber conventions just to see the look on the reps face.. he’ll probably stutter and say we’re almost out of time..


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## Dontmakemepullauonyou (Oct 13, 2015)

GorillaG said:


> Nah your missing the point if everythig is costing more drivers are making less.. get it..the more minimum goes up the less your dollar is worth if everything goes up..economics that's how it works..


To answer your question. Get a REAL job! Something like a mix of min wage + tips. Bartender, waiter, delivery(pizza, jimmy johns not uber type rip off like postmates, actuall jobs wheere you are an employee).


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

uberxcalgary said:


> With the minimum wage increases as they are in parts of Canada, going to $14-15 in Alberta, Ontario and other increases in places. You would think people would stop driving Uber and get other jobs.
> 
> Unfortunately with wage increases. Companies are going to be hiring less and expecting more of current min wage employees. If anything that will mean more people possibly turning to Uber since finding unskilled work will be even harder.
> 
> ...


Good answer!! _REALLY _good answer finally get on my level bro ...



Cableguynoe said:


> Well to answer your question, Uber has no intention of raising the rates in 2018.
> We might have hope for 2019.
> 
> You gonna stick around?


Quitters never win and winners never quit!!


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## UberwithStuber (Jan 18, 2017)

As minimum wages increase, so will other prices as those that hire min wage folks need to offset costs.
So, as we pay more, min wage worker needs more. Prices go up again.
Wash, rinse & repeat.
Min wage jobs were really not intended to live on, but for entry level workers.
Sucks having no skills, but there's still time to learn...you know, school, books, etc.


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

Dontmakemepullauonyou said:


> I have a feeling when gas prices spike a lot uber will run promos like their quests but it'll be like "do 10 rides between 4pm-7pm" and you'll get a shell $20 gas card.


They need to add free pizza at papa John tues and thursdays..with that quest..

Nah but they should increase prices but ask drivers to do more like open doors have umbrella in the car for when it rains..you know figure out ways to make the experience worth paying more cause in my city other cabs suck!!



UberwithStuber said:


> As minimum wages increase, so will other prices as those that hire min wage folks need to offset costs.
> So, as we pay more, min wage worker needs more. Prices go up again.
> Wash, rinse & repeat.
> Min wage jobs were really not intended to live on, but for entry level workers.
> Sucks having no skills, but there's still time to learn...you know, school, books, etc.


Look like someone knows economics..give this guy a piece of paper that someone told him to pay over 100,000 for ,because someone told him you don't have skills unless You have this piece of paper..so here a piece paper go show this paper to someone else cause this piece of paper says your qualified..


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

HAHAHAH I bet you voted in favor of the increase too, or at least voted for the politicians that did, didnt you?

If You want to get paid more, get a skill that pays more. A skill does not mean a degree.

Driving uber is probably as easy, if not easier, than flipping burgers. Atleast there you have to have the discipline to work a set schedule. 

You are doing what 190 million, out of 220 million, American adults can do: drive. Why should such an unskill labor demand anything above minimum wage?


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

steveK2016 said:


> HAHAHAH I bet you voted in favor of the increase too, or at least voted for the politicians that did, didnt you?
> 
> If You want to get paid more, get a skill that pays more. A skill does not mean a degree.


Lol you don't know how much I make..this is just a thread..

I don't vote..since when has voting ever changed anything?


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

GorillaG said:


> Lol you don't know how much I make..this is just a thread..


Well you dont make $25 an hour GROSS or you wouldnt be complaining about it needing your earnings to increase by that much.


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

Lol like i said you don’t know how much I make..
I’m just stirring a soup with carrots and potatoes and noodles and lmfao!!


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

Hey GorillaG
any chance you are related to
HighRollinG

I'm noticing many similarities....


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

GorillaG said:


> Lol like i said you don't know how much I make..
> I'm just stirring a soup with carrots and potatoes and noodles and lmfao!!


Sure ya are bud.


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## HighRollinG (Aug 13, 2017)

Cableguynoe said:


> Hey GorillaG
> any chance you are related to
> HighRollinG
> 
> I'm noticing many similarities....


Everyone on UP is related. But to be clear, this G don't roll with no carrots.


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

Nah but really I’m not complaing this is not a complaint this is the reality in this country and many companies are making the push to adjust to the economic increase..so I believe that everyone company need to start getting ready for these changes..we can’t sit back and act like this isn’t going to affect everyone...even the higher ups in the company are feel this push..I guess I’m just someone that foresees the future instead of just living in the present..things are always changing..so either live in the new or you die in the past...as someone who considers themselves an asset to the app. We have to focus on not just making the app better the next 180 days but making the lives better not just rider but for driver and employees so that we can make this app the best it can be for the world..p.s. I’m more intelligent than most of you and I don’t need no piece of paper to tell me ..lol


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## Cableguynoe (Feb 14, 2017)

GorillaG said:


> Nah but really I'm not complaing this is not a complaint this is the reality in this country and many companies are making the push to adjust to the economic increase..so I believe that everyone company need to start getting ready for these changes..we can't sit back and act like this isn't going to affect everyone...even the higher ups in the company are feel this push..I guess I'm just someone that foresees the future instead of just living in the present..things are always changing..so either live in the new or you die in the past...as someone who considers themselves an asset to the app. We have to focus on not just making the app better the next 180 days but making the lives better not just rider but for driver and employees so that we can this app the best it can be for the world..


So what's the problem you're having again? Not enough money?


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## Driver2448 (Mar 8, 2017)

GorillaG said:


> I drive for uber and minimum wage just went up to 15 $ an hour so now everything is going up services food everything so I was doing the math and driver make about 15hour after expenses so is rate going to increase? Cause I need to make 25 an hour if McDonald is making 15..


Where are McDonald employees making $15/hr?


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

crazy how I had to put a thread in a blog to get answers because every rep at a hub could not answer my question..I wish I could work for corporate so I could give my suggestion to make the app heaven for everyone..



Cableguynoe said:


> So what's the problem you're having again? Not enough money?


Lol


Cableguynoe said:


> Hey GorillaG
> any chance you are related to
> HighRollinG
> 
> I'm noticing many similarities....


lol


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## Brittany Craighead (Jun 8, 2017)

GorillaG said:


> I drive for uber and minimum wage just went up to 15 $ an hour so now everything is going up services food everything so I was doing the math and driver make about 15hour after expenses so is rate going to increase? Cause I need to make 25 an hour if McDonald is making 15..


Lmao why do you think driving should get you more money? It requires NOTHING.

Here's an example of why I'm allowed to demand more...

I have a bachelors degree in criminal justice, a TS, military experience, and 2 years of experience in a prison (1 of which was as a Sergeant).
That makes it possible for me to demand at least $20 an hour starting off wherever I feel like going in the criminal justice field.

What do you have that the McDonald's employees do not? Get a grip.... or a degree lol


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Driver2448 said:


> Where are McDonald employees making $15/hr?


Minimum wage increase over next 2 years.

*New York City* *10 or fewer employees* *11 or more employees*
December 31, 2016 $10.50 $11.00
December 31, 2017 $12.00 $13.00
December 31, 2018 $13.50 $15.00
December 31, 2019 $15.00


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## uberxcalgary (Jul 25, 2017)

Driver2448 said:


> Where are McDonald employees making $15/hr?


Min wage in most of Canada is $12+. With some provinces moving to a min $15 wage by the end of 2015


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## ShinyAndChrome (Aug 18, 2017)

GorillaG said:


> I drive for uber and minimum wage just went up to 15 $ an hour so now everything is going up services food everything so I was doing the math and driver make about 15hour after expenses so is rate going to increase? Cause I need to make 25 an hour if McDonald is making 15..


LOL good one.



steveK2016 said:


> HAHAHAH I bet you voted in favor of the increase too, or at least voted for the politicians that did, didnt you?
> 
> If You want to get paid more, get a skill that pays more. A skill does not mean a degree.
> 
> ...


It's WAY easier. I've never worked a job like mcdonalds. I've been lucky. But I've been to many mcdonalds and I can tell those people in the kitchen are working way harder than when I uber, half the time or more spent listening to music in my own car able to leave whenever I want. Uber should pay almost nothing and, horay, it does pay almost nothing.


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## Tomasimo (Oct 15, 2017)

Rakos said:


> I made $1 an hour last night...
> 
> BEFORE gas and eats...
> 
> ...


No need to look. Sounds like you already found it.


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## Driver2448 (Mar 8, 2017)

uberxcalgary said:


> Min wage in most of Canada is $12+. With some provinces moving to a min $15 wage by the end of 2015


Dang. I live in the wrong country lol!


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## Bubsie (Oct 19, 2017)

Dontmakemepullauonyou said:


> To answer your question. Get a REAL job! Something like a mix of min wage + tips. Bartender, waiter, delivery(pizza, jimmy johns not uber type rip off like postmates, actuall jobs wheere you are an employee).


My understanding is that with the 2018 tax laws an employee can no longer claim business related mileage. Whereas an independent contractor can continue to do so.


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## SEAL Team 5 (Dec 19, 2015)

Cableguynoe said:


> If McDonalds employees are making $15, then you should be making $15.
> Why is it you think you should be making 25?
> You're better than them?


Can you say "Would you like to supersize that fare?"



Driver2448 said:


> Dang. I live in the wrong country lol!


Sh****************t, ask any Canadian how much they pay in taxes. Their health care isn't free either.


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## uberxcalgary (Jul 25, 2017)

Driver2448 said:


> Dang. I live in the wrong country lol!


 Biggest problem up here lately is the cost of living. Housing is getting out of hand.

I live in what is considered an affordable city. But you would still expect to pay $180k min for a 550sq ft condo. Houses at 400k in the shadyier parts.

With rents over $1000 for not much. Min wage (even at $15) after taxes is poverty.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

GorillaG said:


> I drive for uber and minimum wage just went up to 15 $ an hour so now everything is going up services food everything so I was doing the math and driver make about 15hour after expenses so is rate going to increase? Cause I need to make 25 an hour if McDonald is making 15..


If minimum wage is $15 per hour, then quit uber and flip burgers, you'll make more money, and the good news is, if you get layed off, you can get unemployment insurance, at least you can in CA. Dont know about other states. The sad fact about rideshares, no unemployment insurance if you get deactivated ( though, I heared someone sued and got it. One thing they should do for rideshare, is change the law )

If you can make 15 an hour after expenses, good for you. I haven't done that well in 4 years, when the rate was $1.90 per mile in San Diego.



uberxcalgary said:


> Biggest problem up here lately is the cost of living. Housing is getting out of hand.
> 
> I live in what is considered an affordable city. But you would still expect to pay $180k min for a 550sq ft condo. Houses at 400k in the shadyier parts.
> 
> With rents over $1000 for not much. Min wage (even at $15) after taxes is poverty.


True
Years ago, I paid cash for a double wide 1200 sq ft manufactured home, and the park rent is only $600 per month, and this is in san diego, where rents can easily reach $2k for a one bedroom .

The high cost of living is due to free market land ownership where land pricing, a limit resource, gets driven up with the increase on population and this gobbles up more and more of middle class and poor disposable income. Socialize land, lease it according to ability to pay, and the cost of real estate will be born only by the structure on the property, not the land itself. a lease could be legislated to have the permanency of the deed, owing to the fact that the structure can be owned. However, that's way to socialistic of a concept for America.


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## Driver2448 (Mar 8, 2017)

Oscar Levant said:


> If minimum wage is $15 per hour, then quit uber and flip burgers, you'll make more money, and the good news is, if you get layed off, you can get unemployment insurance, at least you can in CA. Dont know about other states. The sad fact about rideshares, no unemployment insurance if you get deactivated ( though, I heared someone sued and got it. One thing they should do for rideshare, is change the law )
> 
> If you can make 15 an hour after expenses, good for you. I haven't done that well in 4 years, when the rate was $1.90 per mile in San Diego.
> 
> ...


I remember when the rates were $1.20/mile where I live and Saturday morning surges. One trip to downtown was worth $60 for thirty five minutes of driving because of the surge. And that was after fees!


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## GorillaG (Jan 10, 2018)

Geniuses all of you


steveK2016 said:


> Well you dont make $25 an hour GROSS or you wouldnt be complaining about it needing your earnings to increase by that much.


Excuse everyone while this guy put sugar in my tea..lol sir I have four lumps thank you!!lol


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

Uber and Lyft are outright exploitative companies. Take the surge. Increased demand does not increase their expenses in any way nor does it really increase their workload. The driver actually bears the brunt of it and the whole reason for the surge is supposedly to get drivers to go out. Yet much of the surge goes to the companies and not the driver.

This is more true for Uber who is in some cases taking more than 50% of the fare and charging wealthy customers more simply because they can without giving anything extra to the driver doing all the work.

Maybe it didn't start out like this but this is how it is now: the companies openly exploit the rider and the driver. You can't expect an increase unless you FORCE them into it.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

GorillaG said:


> Geniuses all of you
> 
> Excuse everyone while this guy put sugar in my tea..lol sir I have four lumps thank you!!lol


You can play it off all you want to, but if you were making more than $25 an hour you wouldn't have posted a jealous rant about how much McDonald employees were/are going to make $15 an hour.



touberornottouber said:


> Uber and Lyft are outright exploitative companies. Take the surge. Increased demand does not increase their expenses in any way nor does it really increase their workload. The driver actually bears the brunt of it and the whole reason for the surge is supposedly to get drivers to go out. Yet much of the surge goes to the companies and not the driver.
> 
> This is more true for Uber who is in some cases taking more than 50% of the fare and charging wealthy customers more simply because they can without giving anything extra to the driver doing all the work.
> 
> Maybe it didn't start out like this but this is how it is now: the companies openly exploit the rider and the driver. You can't expect an increase unless you FORCE them into it.


Thats because the driver has shown they are willing to continue driving given no incentives. Drivers shot themselves in the foot.

Most drivers on this board are savvy, thats why we looked for discussion forums to improve our trade. Even those I may poke fun of, I commend them for being here to look for ways to improve their trade. We know how to work surges, we advise eachother how to maximize our earnings and profitability.

However, we are a mere fraction of drivers. There are countless of others who do not know the advanced techniques shared on this forum. Many continue to take pool, many will chase a surge (and fail) and even more will take non-surge rides/pay even in hot spots.

They've collectively ruined it for the other drivers and theres nothing you can do about it, unfortunately.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Driver2448 said:


> Dang. I live in the wrong country lol!


A Canadian dollar is not the same as an American dollar.
Minimum wage in Mexico is 220 peso. So what.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

Driver2448 said:


> I remember when the rates were $1.20/mile where I live and Saturday morning surges. One trip to downtown was worth $60 for thirty five minutes of driving because of the surge. And that was after fees!


I remember doing trips for over $100 for 30 minute rides in San Diego on surges


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

UberwithStuber said:


> ....
> Sucks having no skills, but there's still time to learn...you know, school, books, etc.


The internet.... there's so many options these days, there really is no excuse not to educate yourself and learn the skills.


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## UberwithStuber (Jan 18, 2017)

dmoney155 said:


> The internet.... there's so many options these days, there really is no excuse not to educate yourself and learn the skills.


This is so true. Rare is the uneducated man a millionaire, and not often is the man who holds a degree a pauper.
By trade, I'm an auto mechanic (or technician as they like to be called). I went to trade school, then worked many years. When cars became computerized in the 80's, I went to a specialized school in St Paul MN to advance my knowledge.
Because of all that training, I'm at the top of my pay scale. There are guys in the field who have never been to any schools other the University of Hard Knocks, and quite frankly they may be good techs, but they don't understand the technology of modern cars and the work they can do and compensation they receive reflects that.
College may not be for eveyone, but training is. Entry level jobs are just that, entry level. There are many stories of corporate leaders who started at the bottom, and rose to the top. Training and ambition!


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Cableguynoe said:


> If McDonalds employees are making $15, then you should be making $15.
> Why is it you think you should be making 25?
> You're better than them?


Because McDonalds employees don't have to purchase and maintain their own fryers, buy their own ingredients, or pay rent on the store. They show up, do the work, they get paid the agreed upon amount, minus taxes, and they get their paycheck for the full amount. The corporation (or franchise owner) pays all of those expenses. This isn't to say that minimum wage isn't total poverty level living, and a more livable country for a greater amount of people ought to be the goal if we want a strong nation... but yeah... being 'better' has nothing to do with it.

When you are working NYE, and Uber/Lyft cap the surge/PT at or below levels with WAY LOWER demand, and you make exactly the same amount... while braving drunk drivers (risking financial catastrophe, bodily injury or death), people vomiting in the car, and other craziness... and that McDonalds employee is making time and a half holiday pay while assuming no extra risk whatsoever... something is wrong with that picture.


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## HighRollinG (Aug 13, 2017)

K-pax said:


> Because McDonalds employees don't have to purchase and maintain their own fryers, buy their own ingredients, or pay rent on the store. They show up, do the work, they get paid the agreed upon amount, minus taxes, and they get their paycheck for the full amount. The corporation (or franchise owner) pays all of those expenses. This isn't to say that minimum wage isn't total poverty level living, and a more livable country for a greater amount of people ought to be the goal if we want a strong nation... but yeah... being 'better' has nothing to do with it.
> 
> When you are working NYE, and Uber/Lyft cap the surge/PT at or below levels with WAY LOWER demand, and you make exactly the same amount... while braving drunk drivers (risking financial catastrophe, bodily injury or death), people vomiting in the car, and other craziness... and that McDonalds employee is making time and a half holiday pay while assuming no extra risk whatsoever... something is wrong with that picture.


McD's employee would love to have even the small tips you get. McD's employee must clock in at a schedule and follow orders of a boss. Most Uber drivers could not hack a job at McD's


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

HighRollinG said:


> McD's employee would love to have even the small tips you get. McD's employee must clock in at a schedule and follow orders of a boss. Most Uber drivers could not hack a job at McD's


Well sure. I've worked fast food jobs before. It's tough. I hated it and got paid peanuts. If anything, having done thay job, I'm very sympathetic to their working conditions and how the public treats them. I'm as nice as I can be to FF workers. They work their butts off and get treated like crap. I'm also in favor of paying them more, even if I pay a few pennies more for my food. If they have options to tip, I always do, as service industry people tend to tip me well when I drive them.

I'm just saying that there are risks and costs that ICs take on that employees don't. $15/hr for an IC isn't $15/hr. Personally, I make more than that net, but Seattle is also a higher rate than a lot of other markets (very high cost of living too). I have no idea how some of the low rate markets keep drivers. If I was going to make $15/hr, I would be an employee.


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## mrpjfresh (Aug 16, 2016)

This thread reminds me of a scene from The Mummy Returns. It is actually pretty allegorical to this whole attitude. Near the end, the monster snatches up Imhotep's devoted head acolyte while the poor guy screams out for help (ie: higher pay). Imhotep's response?









Imhotep runs away to safety and the acolyte is ripped into a bunch of pieces. And isn't that essentially Uber for you?

You make a very fair point, K-pax, about why drivers _should_ (key word) receive higher pay. But that was the genius of this entire thing - convincing drivers to use their _own_ cars, assuming the majority of the risk and do it for such paltry pay in so many instances.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

GorillaG said:


> I drive for uber and minimum wage just went up to 15 $ an hour so now everything is going up services food everything so I was doing the math and driver make about 15hour after expenses so is rate going to increase? Cause I need to make 25 an hour if McDonald is making 15..


If one believes drivers should be valued more by society than burger flippers then one should believe drivers should get paid more than flippers. I believe elementary school teachers should be paid more than NFL quarterbacks.

The fact is that no individual or group should be able to set a wage. The market should determine what the value of an occupation is. If there aren't enough medical doctors then doctors will get paid more. This encourages more to become doctors. If there are too many fruit pickers then pickers will get paid less. This should discourage more from being pickers. The free market works to distribute resources to where they are most valued.

Problems arise when regulators attempt to manipulate the market. Raising the minimum wage will get the regulator votes. Raising the minimum wage will increase some's pay. It will also cause businesses to fail, eliminate some jobs, lower benefits, lower hours available, and lower the employment rate for low paid workers. A very recent study of Seattle's minimum wage increase indicates the average low paid worker lost $125 per month due to the increase. That is a short term effect. The long term effect will have the market correcting for the manipulation by increasing inflation and the return of the low paid worker to a wage that won't support a family.


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## DeFazio (Jul 16, 2017)

GorillaG said:


> They need to add free pizza at papa John tues and thursdays..with that quest..
> 
> .


lol


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> HAHAHAH I bet you voted in favor of the increase too, or at least voted for the politicians that did, didnt you?
> 
> If You want to get paid more, get a skill that pays more. A skill does not mean a degree.
> 
> ...


You repeatedly babble the same tired Uber shill routine about how easy rideshare is, and that anyone can do it.

Now you're telling us rideshare drivers are overpaid.

It's kinda funny how you previously stated you stopped doing this "super easy" job, because the pay was too low, and that you wouldn't go back to driving until uber raises the pay.

And here you are, a big shot businessman, a supposed former uber driver hanging around a website for overpaid workers doing a mindless job.

Haven't you got anything better to do than hang around here?

Not only are you pompous, you're full of bullshit.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> You repeatedly babble the same tired Uber shill routine about how easy rideshare is, and that anyone can do it.
> 
> Now you're telling us rideshare drivers are overpaid.
> 
> ...


Where did I say Rideshare drivers are overpaid?

It is a mindless job compared to anything that should command $25+ an hour. Anyone capable of achieving that on the basic platform, either through strategy or their market, good for them. For those that cannot, then they need to develop a better skill that commands higher pay rather than demand that a remedial job should pay more. It's akin to the fast food workers, nationwide, demanding $15 an hour. If they want higher pay, they need to develop better skills. They shouldn't get a raise and neither should Uber drivers.

If I were an Uber Shill, I wouldn't be telling drivers to improve themselves to do something better than Uber. I think that's actually the opposite of what a shill would want to recommend...

Some people frequent on Facebook, or Reddit, Or Breitbart, or whatever other forum they choose to kill time. I choose to entertain myself around here.


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## uberxcalgary (Jul 25, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> Where did I say Rideshare drivers are overpaid?
> 
> It is a mindless job compared to anything that should command $25+ an hour. Anyone capable of achieving that on the basic platform, either through strategy or their market, good for them. For those that cannot, then they need to develop a better skill that commands higher pay rather than demand that a remedial job should pay more. It's akin to the fast food workers, nationwide, demanding $15 an hour. If they want higher pay, they need to develop better skills. They shouldn't get a raise and neither should Uber drivers.
> 
> ...


I still think we're all missing the point. $20/h doing Uber, is minimum wage. Because of expenses.

As for mindless... it's easy, But not mindless. We certainly take a lot of responsibility every day. I would hope passengers and everyone else appreciates that, at least morally since it's clearly not financially.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

uberxcalgary said:


> I still think we're all missing the point. $20/h doing Uber, is minimum wage. Because of expenses.
> 
> As for mindless... it's easy, But not mindless. We certainly take a lot of responsibility every day. I would hope passengers and everyone else appreciates that, at least morally since it's clearly not financially.


You're right, mindless is a bad term for it. I'll accept easy.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> Where did I say Rideshare drivers are overpaid?
> 
> It is a mindless job compared to anything that should command $25+ an hour. Anyone capable of achieving that on the basic platform, either through strategy or their market, good for them. For those that cannot, then they need to develop a better skill that commands higher pay rather than demand that a remedial job should pay more. It's akin to the fast food workers, nationwide, demanding $15 an hour. If they want higher pay, they need to develop better skills. They shouldn't get a raise and neither should Uber drivers.
> 
> ...


You're shilling while you're denying you're a shill.

You say uber drivers shouldn't get a raise, that qualifies as shilling.

You're also spouting the company line about rideshare being a disposable job, which is the message Uber's been hammering for the past year with their "side hustle" campaign. They openly discourage (while quietly and disingenuously still relying on full time ants) looking at rideshare as anything other than a transient side job. During an interview on TV, one of their vice-presidents said uber isn't meant to be a full time job.

Their business model is based on high turnover.

You said drivers aren't worth more than minimum wage, and assuming most make more than $7.25 per hour, you're saying they're overpaid, yet you said you won't do this easy job unless uber raises the pay.

I'll tell you what pal, come drive here in DC through all the gridlocked traffic, bad roads, crazy and/or incompetent drivers, as well as difficult pax, etc,etc,etc and tell us how "easy" the job is and how anyone can do it properly.

Your comparison between this site and Facebook or Breitbart is invalid.

This site is narrowly focused on rideshare, and is of little interest to non-drivers. That's the reason this site has such high turnover, because when most people quit rideshare, they quit this site.

Yet you continue to spend lots of time here despite your claims of being of being out of the business.

We should be honored that someone with all your wealth and status chooses to spend so much time hanging around with peasant uber drivers.

I say you're still doing rideshare.



uberxcalgary said:


> I still think we're all missing the point. $20/h doing Uber, is minimum wage. Because of expenses.
> 
> As for mindless... it's easy, But not mindless. We certainly take a lot of responsibility every day. I would hope passengers and everyone else appreciates that, at least morally since it's clearly not financially.


It's not easy. If it was, 96% of drivers wouldn't be quitting every year.


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## uberxcalgary (Jul 25, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> It's not easy. If it was, 96% of drivers wouldn't be quitting every year.


Just because it's not profitable doesn't mean it's not easy.

Speaking for myself alone. Sitting in my vehicle for a 12 hour stint, being alert, and lightly twisting my arms, is an easy gig. Certainly feels easier then manual labour.

The 96% turnover comes from profitability. Not difficulty of the job.

You would get 96% turnover at any job/company if you made allusions to a certain earning potential, then the reality came to half (or less) of what was indicated.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

uberxcalgary said:


> Just because it's not profitable doesn't mean it's not easy.
> 
> Speaking for myself alone. Sitting in my vehicle for a 12 hour stint, being alert, and lightly twisting my arms, is an easy gig. Certainly feels easier then manual labour.
> 
> ...


Gee, here I was thinking I was actually putting some effort into this job, but you set me straight.

All I gotta do is keep my eyeballs open and swing my arms a little.

Thanks.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

GorillaG said:


> crazy how I had to put a thread in a blog to get answers because every rep at a hub could not answer my question..I wish I could work for corporate so I could give my suggestion to make the app heaven for everyone..
> 
> Lol
> 
> lol


You keep talking about the app. About making it better. The APP is not the problem.


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

steveK2016 said:


> Where did I say Rideshare drivers are overpaid?
> 
> It is a mindless job compared to anything that should command $25+ an hour. Anyone capable of achieving that on the basic platform, either through strategy or their market, good for them. For those that cannot, then they need to develop a better skill that commands higher pay rather than demand that a remedial job should pay more. It's akin to the fast food workers, nationwide, demanding $15 an hour. If they want higher pay, they need to develop better skills. They shouldn't get a raise and neither should Uber drivers.
> 
> ...


The problem is that the lower end of the wage spectrum is so much into poverty that there really aren't a ton of options for self-betterment. It's pure survival. In Seattle, where fast food workers ALREADY get paid $15/hr, I see them working 2 jobs 6-7 days a week and long hours just to keep up with the cost of living. Where in that is there the time to get an education, learn new skills, or really do anything other than work more and more hours to keep up with rapid inflation? Yes, someone can get student loans, but the cost of living isn't free and school does not pay out (it sucks wealth from you)... After graduating college, the student loans will come due, and then there's that economic problem coming right back again.

As far as claiming this as a mindless job, it isn't any more than any other service job. Good bartenders make similar wages to good uber/lyft drivers, and actually sometimes better (I compare notes with bartenders and sometimes they will have a $400 night when I have a $300 night). We provide a valuable service to the public, and take on the risk of driving during hazardous times to ensure them a safe ride home. We increase public safety, in the process. Would you claim an ambulance driver is a mindless job? How about a police officer? Economic value is not determined on how 'white collar' it is... that is a very flimsy and snobby notion that was hoisted upon the American population to ease tension over the shift away from our traditional export economy. This looking down the nose at anyone who isn't in a suit and tie sort of job is what puts people off. Rideshare drivers deserve every bit we get paid, and food workers SHOULD get paid more. I have very little sympathy for real estate developers/investors who are the ones who are really causing the rise in the cost of living. They are getting filthy rich and then blaming the destruction they are wreaking on their victims. Shame on them.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

K-pax said:


> The problem is that the lower end of the wage spectrum is so much into poverty that there really aren't a ton of options for self-betterment. It's pure survival. In Seattle, where fast food workers ALREADY get paid $15/hr, I see them working 2 jobs 6-7 days a week and long hours just to keep up with the cost of living. Where in that is there the time to get an education, learn new skills, or really do anything other than work more and more hours to keep up with rapid inflation? Yes, someone can get student loans, but the cost of living isn't free and school does not pay out (it sucks wealth from you)... After graduating college, the student loans will come due, and then there's that economic problem coming right back again.
> 
> As far as claiming this as a mindless job, it isn't any more than any other service job. Good bartenders make similar wages to good uber/lyft drivers, and actually sometimes better (I compare notes with bartenders and sometimes they will have a $400 night when I have a $300 night). We provide a valuable service to the public, and take on the risk of driving during hazardous times to ensure them a safe ride home. We increase public safety, in the process. Would you claim an ambulance driver is a mindless job? How about a police officer? Economic value is not determined on how 'white collar' it is... that is a very flimsy and snobby notion that was hoisted upon the American population to ease tension over the shift away from our traditional export economy. This looking down the nose at anyone who isn't in a suit and tie sort of job is what puts people off. Rideshare drivers deserve every bit we get paid, and food workers SHOULD get paid more. I have very little sympathy for real estate developers/investors who are the ones who are really causing the rise in the cost of living. They are getting filthy rich and then blaming the destruction they are wreaking on their victims. Shame on them.


I corrected myself and rescind my statement of mindless. It is simply easy that anyone can do.

You didnt just compare an uber driver to a poice officer did you?

Poverty is a real problem in this country. It has nothing to do with uber.



Nats121 said:


> You're shilling while you're denying you're a shill.
> 
> You say uber drivers shouldn't get a raise, that qualifies as shilling.
> 
> ...


Most people on the forum that are not struggling or hate Uber are part timers. Post people on this forum who are struggling and complaing are full timers. Thats not a coincidence.

I never understood why anyone would do uber full time. Go be a taxi, pays better in most markets and you arent racking in miles on a personal vehicle.

Trying to shove a square peg in a round hole, its just not meant to be a full time gig. If that makes me a shill, fine. Am i suppose to get paid to shill? If so who should I contact for my check?

Im definitely not excluding ride sharing again. My income has improved significantly since being promoted to Dallas. I'm making more now then I was with uber and my regular job in Atlanta, while working less, so I'm not too excited or motivated to get started. I may do it once it warms up to learn all the ins and outs of the Dallas Fort Worth metroplex. Its a great way to learn a city while getting paid for it, however, the earnings and surges here doesnt sound very good. Again, makes for a lack of motivation.

Thanks for your concern though!

You cannot deny that ubering is easy. I do regret using the term mindless, but it certainly is one of the easiest things ive ever had to do to earn money.


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## TomH (Sep 23, 2016)

uberxcalgary said:


> With the minimum wage increases as they are in parts of Canada, going to $14-15 in Alberta, Ontario and other increases in places. You would think people would stop driving Uber and get other jobs.
> 
> Unfortunately with wage increases. Companies are going to be hiring less and expecting more of current min wage employees. If anything that will mean more people possibly turning to Uber since finding unskilled work will be even harder.
> 
> ...


Absolutely right. There is no reason for Uber to raise rates for drivers until there is a shortage of drivers. That is not likely.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> I corrected myself and rescind my statement of mindless. It is simply easy that anyone can do.
> 
> You didnt just compare an uber driver to a poice officer did you?
> 
> ...


Uber and Lyft take a pretty good beating over at the DC section of UPnet, from both part and full time drivers.

Most of the harshest critics are doing alright at it IN SPITE of Uber and Lyft, by employing various strategy and tactics, some controversial.

Even though they're doing alright, they know they're getting screwed out of making a lot more, and they resent all the lies, tricks, mind games,etc these companies employ.

People don't like being cheated, whether they're making $1 a year or $30 million a year.

You're a shill because of the way you constantly rush to uber's defense when they get attacked, despite their terrible behavior.

The people of UPnet have read to the point of ad nauseam your claims of being a successful businessman who supposedly quit driving rideshare, yet you can't find any better way to spend your time than hanging around a rideshare driver website defending uber.

If you quit your job at an office, and continued to hang around that office afterward, suffice to say the people at that office would find that behavior bizarre.

Driving a car correctly in of itself isn't easy, all you have to do is look at the high number of people unable to do that to know it's not.

Now add to that driving in extremely congested DC with many poor roads,tricky navigation, speed and red light cameras and many bad drivers (plenty of uber in that group).

Add to that the hassle of locating pax who keep drivers waiting and are frequently in difficult and illegal loading areas, many of whom demand limo service for the price of busfare, and who will downrate drivers for missing a turn or refusing to make stops.

And that's not including the really badly behaved pax, all the while receiving low pay. No, it's not easy.

There's a reason the govt limits the number of hours truckers and others can drive, because driving long periods even on smooth, non-congested roads is mentally and even physically taxing. Add all of the above and it becomes more taxing.


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Uber and Lyft take a pretty good beating over at the DC section of UPnet, from both part and full time drivers.
> 
> Most of the harshest critics are doing alright at it IN SPITE of Uber and Lyft, by employing various strategy and tactics, some controversial.


That's much better than orlando...

Us Orlando drivers only do well... doing _something else_.

If they run a Select/XL eligible car some of them can actually pull in $15 or so an hour. But that's with an expensive Select SUV


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## RangerBella (Nov 29, 2017)

GorillaG said:


> I'm go to one of those uber conventions just to see the look on the reps face.. he'll probably stutter and say we're almost out of time..


Not so much. People like that can look you straight in the eye......lie to your face and never blink. You ask people like that how they sleep at night and they will say, "With my eyes closed and my head on my pillow." These are evil, greedy bastards. Their interests are only in what benefits them. Watch those Enron guys when they were called to testify.......they were only trying to save their own asses. Its the same kind of people running Uber. The only thing that will get these guy's attention is if everyone refuses to drive for peanuts. I'm positive that drivers complaining about rates/etc doesnt even make it to be a topic at the corporate water cooler.

Alright......now lets all go back to doing before...

Uber drivers.......Start your engines

Lol


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## Scott.Sul (Sep 9, 2015)

Didn't the former Uber CEO once yell at a driver "don't blame him for your bad decisions"? (or something like that) That says it all right there. Uber wasn't meant to be a full time career that pays a living wage. His comment clearly says that ride share companies think their drivers are idiots... And when they keep getting more drivers while constantly lowering wages... it kinda proves their point... leaving them laughing all the way to the bank.

If you really want to know how much Uber thinks you're worth, calculate the NET per-minute rate they pay you * 60. That is the hourly wage they think you are worth waiting for a pickup, waiting at secondary stops, or sitting in traffic, or going through drive thru's, etc. Can't cite minimum wage laws as you agreed to drive for that rate as an independent contractor.... with all the freedom to stop when you want.

"No tipping necessary" is another clear indication of their disrespect and disdain for drivers.

If a builder quoted me $100,000 to build a $400,000 house, should he then have the right to complain about how much he's not making? Did he not do the math beforehand and figure out expenses would cost him $300,000 to build it?


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

bsliv said:


> If one believes drivers should be valued more by society than burger flippers then one should believe drivers should get paid more than flippers. I believe elementary school teachers should be paid more than NFL quarterbacks.
> 
> The fact is that no individual or group should be able to set a wage. The market should determine what the value of an occupation is. If there aren't enough medical doctors then doctors will get paid more. This encourages more to become doctors. If there are too many fruit pickers then pickers will get paid less. This should discourage more from being pickers. The free market works to distribute resources to where they are most valued.
> 
> Problems arise when regulators attempt to manipulate the market. Raising the minimum wage will get the regulator votes. Raising the minimum wage will increase some's pay. It will also cause businesses to fail, eliminate some jobs, lower benefits, lower hours available, and lower the employment rate for low paid workers. A very recent study of Seattle's minimum wage increase indicates the average low paid worker lost $125 per month due to the increase. That is a short term effect. The long term effect will have the market correcting for the manipulation by increasing inflation and the return of the low paid worker to a wage that won't support a family.


I used to be a Libertarian I used to think like you. But as I studied the subject more I began to see the flaw in this reasoning. In 1969 the minimum wage in Los Angeles was 2 bucks an hour which was more than the minimum wage is today adjusting for inflation however in those days unemployment was below 4% so this fact dispels your contention that raising the minimum wage causes more unemployment . it doesn't up to a point and over a certain point it does. this fact Republicans and Libertarians are unable to grasp . give people a livable wage and they will have more disposable income which will increase the demand for goods and services and thus jobs.

Pay people less than a livable wage and they tend to take food stamps and become a burden to society and this cost Society more in the long run than it does then if companies paid a livable wage. A notable example is Walmart where many of the employees got food stamps because they were earning less than a livable wage. those food stamps are not welfare for the workers they are welfare for the corporation who should have paid them enough money where they didn't have to get food stamps in the first place. the cost to society is even greater because now your taxes have to pay for the administration of the food stamp program.

The minimum wage is inecessary regulation to prevent corporations and businesses from exploiting people in weak economic situations. This is why I believe there should be a regulation compelling Rideshare companies to compensate drivers for use of their vehicles because right now there is Grand Theft Auto on a massive scale, they are robbing us of our cars equity in essence. This could be prevented with legislation. I earn about $100 a day after gas and I'm putting 200 miles a day on my car for which I am receiving no compensation for this accelerated depreciation and wear and tear. Drivers are giving Uber a free ride. If Travis kalanick sells his shares for 29 billion he actually earned that money on the backs of drivers he is an essence a thief. If he had a moral Compass , a conscience, he would return that money to all the drivers , split it all up and give it to the drivers. Well I won't be holding my breath for that to happen.

The logic Libertarians and Republicans use that people like me could just simply quit is untenable given that in my situation I can't just quit I've been looking for a job for 4 years I'm not very employable and if you knew me and my situation you would understand and I'd rather not elaborate , but there's a lot of people like me. So, does that give Uber the right to exploit me? I say no and millions agree with me and we will be voting in November to take back the house to put a stop the kind of philosophy you are espousing.

And sorry for the run-on sentences because I'm using the voice thingy and it tends to do that 



Scott.Sul said:


> Didn't the former Uber CEO once yell at a driver "don't blame him for your bad decisions"? (or something like that) That says it all right there. Uber wasn't meant to be a full time career that pays a living wage. His comment clearly says that ride share companies think their drivers are idiots... And when they keep getting more drivers while constantly lowering wages... it kinda proves their point... leaving them laughing all the way to the bank.
> 
> If you really want to know how much Uber thinks you're worth, calculate the NET per-minute rate they pay you * 60. That is the hourly wage they think you are worth waiting for a pickup, waiting at secondary stops, or sitting in traffic, or going through drive thru's, etc. Can't cite minimum wage laws as you agreed to drive for that rate as an independent contractor.... with all the freedom to stop when you want.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter what Uber was "meant to be". it should be subjected to regulation to prevent Uber from exploiting drivers, just as there is a minimum wage for people whether they were full or part-time.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Oscar Levant said:


> I used to be a Libertarian I used to think like you. But as I studied the subject more I began to see the flaw in this reasoning. In 1969 the minimum wage in Los Angeles was 2 bucks an hour which was more than the minimum wage is today adjusting for inflation however in those days unemployment was below 4% so this fact dispels your contention that raising the minimum wage causes more unemployment . it doesn't up to a point and over a certain point it does. this fact Republicans and Libertarians are unable to grasp . give people a livable wage and they will have more disposable income which will increase the demand for goods and services and thus jobs.
> 
> Pay people less than a livable wage and they tend to take food stamps and become a burden to society and this cost Society more in the long run than it does then if companies paid a livable wage. A notable example is Walmart where many of the employees got food stamps because they were earning less than a livable wage. those food stamps are not welfare for the workers they are welfare for the corporation who should have paid them enough money where they didn't have to get food stamps in the first place. the cost to society is even greater because now your taxes have to pay for the administration of the food stamp program.
> 
> ...


And I used to think from each what they could provide and to each what they need was a good idea. But life, including studying at a university for four years with a major in economics, viewing other countries socialist's experiments, running a business for 30 years, and operating as an economist for 25 years has altered my opinion. Any government powerful enough to give you all you need is powerful enough to take everything away from you.

My first job was for $0.50 an hour. I was happy to get that money. I was able to schedule my work hours around my school and extra curriculum activities. It put cash in my pocket. I learned a lot about how a hardware store works. As my value to the store increased, I had a wage increase. Had the hardware store been forced to pay minimum wage, I wouldn't have had the job. I wouldn't have had an income. I wouldn't have had the hardware education. The hardware store would have been worse off because they wouldn't have a peon to do the peon work.

Could I raise a family on a $0.50 per hour job? lol. Entry level jobs seldom pay one enough to raise a family. Entry level jobs often have training that increases the employee's skill or knowledge which increases the employee's value to the company.

A very recent study by the University of Washington on the minimum wage increase in Seattle indicated that the average low paid worker's wage increased by 3%. It also decreased their hours worked by 9%. This resulted in a net loss to the average low paid worker of $125 per month. This 'feel good' law hurt those that it was designed to help. It makes sense. If gasoline's price increased, drivers would drive less and search for alternatives to gasoline.

Those in low paid jobs often get food stamps or other government subsidies (collectively known as welfare). There is a problem with that. But the problem isn't with the low paid jobs, it with the welfare payments. The redistribution of wealth is counter productive. It hurts those that put the effort in to excel and reduces the incentive for others to put in an effort. Incentive is a very powerful force.

Incentive is one of the main forces that makes capitalism superior to socialism. If one is provided with their needs, the incentive to work harder is reduced. Another important force is the iron fist of government. If my hardware store employer failed to comply with minimum wage laws, he would have been met by people with guns in an organization that has a monopoly on the initialization of the use of deadly force. In a capitalist system, I was happy, the store owner was happy, and the customers were happy. In a socialist system, the employer could be in jail, or worse, legally killed.

Lumping Libertarians with Republicans is similar to lumping Communists with Democrats. Some might take offence with that characterization.

Government should not have the ability to favor one company or industry over another. Government's responsibility is to arbitrate disputes and protect the rights of its citizens. It is not government's duty to ensure smart business decisions by businesses. If I get offered a contract that pays a given amount for given scope of work, its up to me to determine if the compensation is adequate. If it looks good, I'll accept it. If it doesn't look so good, I'll reject it. I may enlist the advice of others in my decision but I don't need or want government telling me I can or cannot accept the contracted offer.

Since the housing market crash 10 years ago, I work about 10 hours a week. My schedule is highly variable, I can't take a regular hours job. I have a decent economy car. I've lived this town > 35 years and know the streets very well. Ridesharing would be ideal for a person in my position. But I don't get offered contracts that I deem acceptable. I don't blame the business offering me the contracts. I blame the people who accept the contracts with the low compensation. I can't/won't compete with them. I wish it were different but I'm not willing to give up any freedom to change the situation.

Sorry for being so long, the coffee kicked in. I could go on, though.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

bsliv said:


> And I used to think from each what they could provide and to each what they need was a good idea. But life, including studying at a university for four years with a major in economics, viewing other countries socialist's experiments, running a business for 30 years, and operating as an economist for 25 years has altered my opinion. Any government powerful enough to give you all you need is powerful enough to take everything away from you.
> 
> My first job was for $0.50 an hour. I was happy to get that money. I was able to schedule my work hours around my school and extra curriculum activities. It put cash in my pocket. I learned a lot about how a hardware store works. As my value to the store increased, I had a wage increase. Had the hardware store been forced to pay minimum wage, I wouldn't have had the job. I wouldn't have had an income. I wouldn't have had the hardware education. The hardware store would have been worse off because they wouldn't have a peon to do the peon work.
> 
> ...


I do agree with you on some points, teh gov shouldn't play favorites ( and we know they do, cronyism is rampant ) and no progressive I know argues against doing away with free markets ( acknowledging that "free" is a loose term ). I am one who supports minimum wages and I support a law that would compell rideshare companies to compensate drivers for use of their vehicles, that is fair. I'm 66, and have studied economics all my life. I used to be a Milton Friedman guy, but now I'm leaning more on the side of Chomsky ( not 100%, I don't buy his anarchist/libertarian utopian fantasy, I'm more in the Bernie camp.)

As for "The redistribution of wealth is counter productive. It hurts those that put the effort in to excel and reduces the incentive for others to put in an effort. Incentive is a very powerful force." This is true except when things drift to extremes, which is what is happening. If someone earns $500 million per year, is he or she "disincentivized" if they are compelled to pay $250 million in taxes versus $200 million in taxes, whereupon they are allowed to squeak by on almost a mere million per day? Or simplifying it, could someone who is used to 10 spoonfuls of caviar manage okay if compelled to accept only 5 versus 6 spoonfuls? Its BS, at that level, as Buffet has proclaimed, it's not about money, it's about the game, and the game isn't disincentivized by quibbling over how much people at that level should be taxed. Below $1 million per year or some degree over which we could debate, it might be higher, or it might be lower, thing is, only then, in my opinion, do you have a point.

Economics is an empirical art, and "studies" are easily manipulated depending on the bias of the administrators. Those that are right leaning tend to arrange the universe to comport to their bias, and the same can be said on the left. The long and short of it is just opinions, and I don't buy it. There is no such thing as a 100% free market, nor 100% pure democracy, nor will their ever be, so the debate isn't the legitimacy of various institutions they are all legitimate. The argument is on efficiency, justness of a regulation, legitimacy of a department ( should the EPA exist? etc ).

"Freedom", the favorite trope of the right, is, as always, a red herring in this debate.

As for "should this, or should that", it will always ultimately fall on voters to decide. There is no ultimate "should". There is only the will of the people ( which, by a fluke of the electoral college in the last election and district gerrymandering, was hijacked ).

Feel free to go on, I enjoy civil discourse and debate from opposing views.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Oscar Levant said:


> I do agree with you on some points, teh gov shouldn't play favorites ( and we know they do, cronyism is rampant ) and no progressive I know argues against doing away with free markets ( acknowledging that "free" is a loose term ). I am one who supports minimum wages and I support a law that would compell rideshare companies to compensate drivers for use of their vehicles, that is fair. I'm 66, and have studied economics all my life. I used to be a Milton Friedman guy, but now I'm leaning more on the side of Chomsky ( not 100%, I don't buy his anarchist/libertarian utopian fantasy, I'm more in the Bernie camp.)
> 
> As for "The redistribution of wealth is counter productive. It hurts those that put the effort in to excel and reduces the incentive for others to put in an effort. Incentive is a very powerful force." This is true except when things drift to extremes, which is what is happening. If someone earns $500 million per year, is he or she "disincentivized" if they are compelled to pay $250 million in taxes versus $200 million in taxes, whereupon they are allowed to squeak by on almost a mere million per day? Or simplifying it, could someone who is used to 10 spoonfuls of caviar manage okay if compelled to accept only 5 versus 6 spoonfuls? Its BS, at that level, as Buffet has proclaimed, it's not about money, it's about the game, and the game isn't disincentivized by quibbling over how much people at that level should be taxed. Below $1 million per year or some degree over which we could debate, it might be higher, or it might be lower, thing is, only then, in my opinion, do you have a point.
> 
> ...


We agree on several points, not the least of which is remaining civil. I think our main disagreement is which is the worst evil, big business or big government. I suggest big government is, by far, the worst evil. A thriving, expanding economy is best for citizens of the society. Generally speaking, big business is good for the economy. Big government is a parasite on the economy. Another difference between a business and government is choice vs. force. If a business wants your money, they entice you to voluntarily buy their product or service. If a government wants your money, they take it. If a business doesn't like the policies of a foreign government, its ceases trade with the country. If a government doesn't like the policies of a foreign government, lives can be lost. Life is the most precious resource anyone can hold. I place the individual ahead of the state.

A socialist government is a big government. Administrators create regulations. Businesses have to be investigated. Businesses have to be prosecuted. Businesses have to be punished. These actions require people, time, and money. The money comes from the productive taxpayers. Higher taxes means less to spend. Less to spend means less production. Less production means a loss to the economy.

Business freedom means the freedom to offer a contract. Freedom means the ability of the contractor to accept or reject the contract based on their own situation. I may view an offer as unacceptable if the compensation works out to $10 an hour. Others may jump at the chance to earn $10 an hour and accept the contract. Perhaps I, and my competition, calculated wrong and the actual compensation is $1 an hour. That is my, and my competition's fault. It is not the fault of the business that offers the contract, they're smart. It is not the fault of a government, they're there to protect against violations of rights as defined by the U.S. Constitution. The pursuit of happiness should be available. Happiness cannot be guaranteed.

If a $15 an hour minimum wage is better than a $10 minimum wage (or no minimum wage at all), shouldn't $50 an hour be better? If a minimum wage is good, would a maximum wage be just as good? If two people or businesses agree on a transaction, each acting in their own self interest, and no third party's rights have been violated, why should they be deemed criminals? If gasoline increased by 10%, wouldn't drivers reduce driving and look for alternatives to gasoline? If labor costs increased, by force, by 10%, wouldn't employers hire fewer employees and look for alternatives to hiring employees? If the minimum wage increased from $10 an hour to $15 an hour, what happens to the people who were making $12 an hour? What about the people making 50% more than the mandated minimum?

I work as an independent contractor in my regular job. I get offered contracts with varying complexities. If I miscalculate the effort involved to complete the assignment, should the government step in and guarantee me a minimum?

I am not pro big business. I am pro choice. The banks, insurance companies, car manufacturers, etc. should not have been bailed out during the most recent recession. They made their business choices. The should reap the rewards and/or suffer the consequences. Instead, big government and their big pockets (actually taxpayers pockets) said they were too big to fail. That is not correct. If GM failed, some other car company would acquire their resources and run a more efficient business - or fail. Our government favored GM at the cost of Ford. Our government favored Bank of America over my local credit union.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

bsliv said:


> We agree on several points, not the least of which is remaining civil. I think our main disagreement is which is the worst evil, big business or big government. I suggest big government is, by far, the worst evil. A thriving, expanding economy is best for citizens of the society. Generally speaking, big business is good for the economy. Big government is a parasite on the economy. Another difference between a business and government is choice vs. force. If a business wants your money, they entice you to voluntarily buy their product or service. If a government wants your money, they take it. If a business doesn't like the policies of a foreign government, its ceases trade with the country. If a government doesn't like the policies of a foreign government, lives can be lost. Life is the most precious resource anyone can hold. I place the individual ahead of the state.
> 
> A socialist government is a big government. Administrators create regulations. Businesses have to be investigated. Businesses have to be prosecuted. Businesses have to be punished. These actions require people, time, and money. The money comes from the productive taxpayers. Higher taxes means less to spend. Less to spend means less production. Less production means a loss to the economy.
> 
> ...


Without looking at the rest of what you said I'm going to stop you on the big government line , let's deal with that.

"big government" is another favorite trope of the right. I bump into this a lot with conservatives on this. . If you really want to take a close look at this the government isn't anywhere as big as you think it is. It's not like a boulder that you can see in the back of your house. In fact the expenditures for federal employees is only a very small portion of the federal budget most of it is military and entitlements. As for bigness the military is big and if you want to reduce the size of government then reduce the size of the military that is something you can sense and feel. The actual size of the government is federal buildings and it pales compared to the size of the military but no conservative I know wants to reduce the size of the military, they want to make it bigger.

But it's really all about policy so I'll ask your typical conservative what does small government mean in terms of policy? Let's look at what kinds of policies conservatives are proposing in the Congress and the Senate and I tell you it's always some variation of less goodies for poor people and more goodies for rich people and that's what small government means. It also means deregulation but both extremes are bad too much regulation over-reaching regulation is bad and not enough regulation is also bad and Trump seems to be going to the extreme and that direction .

Lower taxes on are super rich people and less entitlements for the poor this is how small government is translated in the policy with conservatives. Well I got bad news for you the electorate a majority of us are left-leaning and we disagree with this approach and you're not going to be part of the future if that's your philosophy. My mother is 90 years old she can't work and she only gets 800 a month and you want to cut her pay? You might say no to that but the vast majority of people that are getting these entitlements are people like her , people that really need the money. Yeah there's a few deadbeats in there that fall through the cracks and I'm willing to take a look at that but it's by far not the meat of entitlements not like many conservatives I know who think that's the situation , it is simply not true.

So that's my sentiment on big government now I'll take a look at the rest of what you wrote.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

I might not be a conservative. I'm all for reducing the size of our military. I think reducing it by 50% would be a good start. The goal should be around 75%. And we'd still out spend China on a per capita basis by nearly 3 to 1. Some (most?) conservatives want to build a very expensive wall on our southern border. I say, "Tear down the walls!" I'm for completely free immigration/emigration. 

Not only does large government create inefficiencies, they are inefficient themselves. The average federal employee makes nearly $85,000, 50% more than the average private sector worker. That wouldn't be so bad if there weren't so many of them. 17% of our population is employed by government. Roughly speaking, with 5 people, 1 will be a government employee that the other four (who only make $50,000/yr) have to support.

End deficit spending.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

bsliv said:


> I might not be a conservative. I'm all for reducing the size of our military. I think reducing it by 50% would be a good start. The goal should be around 75%. And we'd still out spend China on a per capita basis by nearly 3 to 1. Some (most?) conservatives want to build a very expensive wall on our southern border. I say, "Tear down the walls!" I'm for completely free immigration/emigration.
> 
> Not only does large government create inefficiencies, they are inefficient themselves. The average federal employee makes nearly $85,000, 50% more than the average private sector worker. That wouldn't be so bad if there weren't so many of them. 17% of our population is employed by government. Roughly speaking, with 5 people, 1 will be a government employee that the other four (who only make $50,000/yr) have to support.
> 
> End deficit spending.


Yes the government pays better that's as it should be private sector exploits people because they can get away with it, because they're dismantling unions and people at the bottom have no voice, no bargaining chips-- that's what we should focus on, in and get parity between private and government --people would have more disposable income and economy would improve. But on the flip side of that at the top private sector pays a way way way more so what is this argument you're making ? The government has it right , the disparity between the top and bottom is only 7 to 1 whereas in private sector It's 300 to 1 that's not right .

America's huge , is a complex society the government has to be big and I agree with you the military can be cut back a lot more than it is definitely we agree on that one. I've worked for huge corporations and they're just as bloated and bureaucratic as big government . big as hard to manage I don't care who's at the top you couldn't do better who could do better? nobody , or they be doing it.



bsliv said:


> I might not be a conservative. I'm all for reducing the size of our military. I think reducing it by 50% would be a good start. The goal should be around 75%. And we'd still out spend China on a per capita basis by nearly 3 to 1. Some (most?) conservatives want to build a very expensive wall on our southern border. I say, "Tear down the walls!" I'm for completely free immigration/emigration.
> 
> Not only does large government create inefficiencies, they are inefficient themselves. The average federal employee makes nearly $85,000, 50% more than the average private sector worker. That wouldn't be so bad if there weren't so many of them. 17% of our population is employed by government. Roughly speaking, with 5 people, 1 will be a government employee that the other four (who only make $50,000/yr) have to support.
> 
> End deficit spending.


There's only one way to get there and that's to return to the progressive tax system and we had in the fifties. By the way a man in those days on one income could support a wife 2 kids house a mortgage and a car today that's practically impossible for the average worker.



Cableguynoe said:


> If McDonalds employees are making $15, then you should be making $15.
> Why is it you think you should be making 25?
> You're better than them?


He should be making more because, well, name one McDonald's employed that has a $20k investment in his or her job? When someone brings their expensive tools to do a job, it always pays more than if the boss supplied the tools, it's always been that way, but in the case of McDonald's, no expensive tools are required, anyway, it's the bottom rung of the work marketplace, and clearly, driving for Uber, though probably about the same level of difficulty, there is more responsibility on a critical level ( a bad driver could kill someone ) and that always means more pay for more responsibility so, point being, driving for Uber is a notch up the ladder. Note that, before Uber, one could drive a cab and literally earn twice as much as driving for Uber in most cities, and it's essentially the same job.


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