# Do Lower Fares Really Equal More Money For Drivers Due to More Rides, Just as Uber has claimed?



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

Whenever Uber lowers the rates in a market, they send out e-mails to their drivers claiming that the new lower fares will actually equal more pings and therefore, more money for the drivers. They say they have researched this claim and hold it as a truth. They even have graphs and charts included to bolster their claim. My weekly take home pay has dropped anywhere from 25% - 40% since Uber dropped fares in my market. Are there any drivers who can actually substantiate that by Uber dropping the fares in their market, you are now making more money, just as Uber said you would?


----------



## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

I have seen two graphs that they use for this. They're both a joke and show nothing. The said in London that their figures showed a 12℅ increase in money "made". But without any workings shown, this has this-is-a-number-I-pulled-out-of-my-ass credibility.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Uber's claim is that the Drivers' earnings/week would go up ~18% as a result of the lowered rates.









In the email announcing the lowered rates being passed on to the drivers, Uber said "We will continue to closely monitor your earnings after price cuts and are *willing to make adjustments if needed*"


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

How much more time do they need to "monitor" my shitty earnings? I am really interested if anyone is actually make more money after rate cuts. Hopefully more people will respond.


----------



## CLAkid (Oct 23, 2014)

I may be getting more pings, but my earnings have not improved. If anything they are about the same. Like the others here, I am not able to substantiate Uber's claims.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> How much more time do they need to "monitor" my shitty earnings?


Dude are you serious!? Uber has no interest in monitoring drivers earnings.


Realityshark said:


> I am really interested if anyone is actually make more money after rate cuts. Hopefully more people will respond.


The demand for Rides might might have gone up marginally due to the lower rates, but the Drivers' earnings/hour have actually gone down.

Why? 
Because there are a lot more shorter rides requested, thanks to the lower Base Rate & Minimum Fare. And guess what, Uber is actually making a more revenue with a higher profit margin, because it gets the $1 SRF from every $4 ride + 20% commission. Uber's cut on a $4 ride is 40%, and gradually approaches to 20% as fare total gets higher.

https://uberpeople.net/threads/what...initive-proof-theyre-lying-to-our-faces.4685/


----------



## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

CLAkid said:


> I may be getting more pings, but my earnings have not improved. If anything they are about the same. Like the others here, I am not able to substantiate Uber's claims.


Interesting comment CLAkid. If your earnings have remained static, whist doing more jobs, would you agree that wear and tear, fuel costs have gone up?

Do you see how your earnings may be the same, but profit will be heading south. Whilst you doing more jobs increases the commision and $1.00 safe rider levy per day you are hand over to UBER.

Are you getting the picture? Bit of a horror movie IMHO


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> Whenever Uber lowers the rates in a market, they send out e-mails to their drivers claiming that the new lower fares will actually equal more pings and therefore, more money for the drivers. They say they have researched this claim and hold it as a truth. They even have graphs and charts included to bolster their claim. My weekly take home pay has dropped anywhere from 25% - 40% since Uber dropped fares in my market. Are there any drivers who can actually substantiate that by Uber dropping the fares in their market, you are now making more money, just as Uber said you would?


Any UberX driver who has worked a few hours under the $4 gross/$2.40 net system knows they make about $9-12 and hour PRE expenses and IF they drive non-stop.

*Net? Less than minimum wage.*

Of course this minimum wage yob is only available during busy times, not when sitting around waiting for pings, which pays ZERO.

McDonalds is far more enticing with much less risk. And if a driver worked at 2 different McDonalds they could work the same hours as Ubering too.


----------



## OldTownSean (Aug 14, 2014)

84.6% of all statistics are completely made up.


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> Dude are you serious!? Uber has no interest in monitoring drivers earnings.
> 
> The demand for Rides might might have gone up marginally due to the lower rates, but the Drivers' earnings/hour have actually gone down.
> 
> ...


Not serious...just sarcastic.


----------



## grams777 (Jun 13, 2014)

Uber math appears to be at best an exercise in deception.

Even if rides per hour were up 20%, the actual driver net profit per mile (after ALL expenses - gas, depreciation, dead miles, etc.) has dropped as much as 75%. Even small fare cuts this close to the cost to drive have a large impact on your net profit.

For an example, lets say rides are up 20% and your net profit has dropped 40% (from .40 to .25 per mile, a 15 cent per mile net decrease):

Before Fare Cut: 50 miles at .40 per mile net profit = $20.00 Net Profit to Driver. (Gross 1.45 x 50 = $72.50)

After Fare Cut: 60 miles at .25 per mile net profit = $ 15.00 Net Profit to Driver. (Gross 1.25 x 60 = $75.00)

True, even if you've driven more, you've got more $ in fares, but you're making less money and working more.

What Uber appears to do is graph either the increased time, miles, or gross and say how wonderful life is. But your true net profit over the same amount of time was butchered.

Obviously, there is disagreement that rides per average driver are truly even up that much or at all. In that case, the results are much worse.

Let's do our own fancy graph too:


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

grams777 said:


> Uber math appears to be at best an exercise in deception.
> 
> Even if rides per hour were up 20%, the actual driver net profit per mile (after ALL expenses - gas, depreciation, dead miles, etc.) has dropped as much as 75%. Even small fare cuts this close to the cost to drive have a large impact on your net profit.
> 
> ...


INDEED. A small reduction in fare is a HUGE reduction, percentage wise, when compared to the net figures, which is where the comparison should be made.

I ran a small business for decades and that is how I always looked at any price reductions. *A minor 10% fare reduction can actually be a 50% reduction or more to the profit number.*

*The idiots at Uber run on 'how much you can GROSS.' Not 'NET.'*


----------



## LAuberX (Jun 3, 2014)

Lower rates don't work when they add hundreds of new drivers every month. The increase in ridership they claim is overwhelmed by the number of drivers on the grid.

Lower fares just mean even when you are "busy" you are making less. Less per mile. Less per minute. there are only 60 minutes in an hour, when rates go down you make less.

whatever the rate cut is, the reduction in net profit is double. i.e. a 15% rate cut means a 30% net profit cut. Gas costs the same, car payment the same, tire wear the same.

Fixed expenses are the same, you just make less per hour when rates get cut. I had so many fares under $10.00 last week Uber took 30% and I made 1/2 of what I made in the summer.


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

I factor in everything as I too ran my own business and know how to crunch numbers. The math here is quite simple. That's why I know I am down 25% - 40% ... It varies from week to week. A few airport runs pumps up the average, but I'm still way down compared to what it once was. Those drivers who think this is a great deal probably don't factor in the depreciation to their vehicle. I wonder how many drivers will give up after next April. I doubt that many drivers are factoring in the IRSs' cut.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

LAuberX said:


> Lower rates don't work when they add hundreds of new drivers every month. The increase in ridership they claim is overwhelmed by the number of drivers on the grid.
> 
> Lower fares just mean even when you are "busy" you are making less. Less per mile. Less per minute. there are only 60 minutes in an hour, when rates go down you make less.
> 
> ...


The lower they cut the fares, the more pronounced/higher the PERCENTAGE effect is *on the reduction in the net figure to the drivers. *

Not that Uber gives a damn. Jus sayin


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> I factor in everything as I too ran my own business and know how to crunch numbers. The math here is quite simple. That's why I know I am down 25% - 40% ... It varies from week to week. A few airport runs pumps up the average, but I'm still way down compared to what it once was. Those drivers who think this is a great deal probably don't factor in the depreciation to their vehicle. I wonder how many drivers will give up after next April. I doubt that many drivers are factoring in the IRSs' cut.


Eventually drivers figure out the only way to make any profit is to do airport runs 2 WAYS, there and back, and only do nights or times when there are surges.

If not, go home cause yer losing $ or at best wasting time.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

My math using UberX LA rates (old and new) shows that you'd need about a 27% increase in requests with the lower rates to match what you were paid under the old ones.

I already lost my assumptions because I didn't save the spreadsheet, but it assumed the average trip was 6 miles and 14 minutes long (I think), that you worked 8 hours a day/5 days a week/52 weeks a year, and that under the old pricing, you did 11 trips a day.

Now, under the old model, using my assumptions (which could be very off, since I don't know what it's like to drive during the day), of those 8 hours, you are spending 5 hours a 26 minutes of that 8 hour shift either not on a trip, or driving to a trip. Under the new pricing at the 27% business increase, it's now 4 hours and 44 minutes. You're now at 42 less minutes in an 8 hour day in which you're either sitting idle, or driving to your next rider. I would assume though, with more business, the amount of miles driven to pick up the next rider goes down. So while the 18 extra miles a day you're driving in fare trips adds 18 miles worth of vehicle expenses, the number of miles to the next trip has been potentially reduced. If you use the $0.56/mile figure (which I don't, because what would the IRS know about my cost to operate my vehicle?), a 1.3 mile reduction per trip in the distance traveled to pick up riders over your 14 daily trips would even that out.

These numbers could be complete garbage, I don't know. Just something to chew on/play with.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> I factor in everything as I too ran my own business and know how to crunch numbers. The math here is quite simple. That's why I know I am down 25% - 40% ... It varies from week to week. A few airport runs pumps up the average, but I'm still way down compared to what it once was. Those drivers who think this is a great deal probably don't factor in the depreciation to their vehicle. I wonder how many drivers will give up after next April. I doubt that many drivers are factoring in the IRSs' cut.


As shitty as the rates are there is unlikely to be much, if any taxable income after the mileage deduction is applied. Most drivers are already in or well below the poverty level income category in any case.

IN ADDITION expense deduction can EXCEED the IRS mileage deduction allowance if actual (documented) expenses exceed that amount.


----------



## grams777 (Jun 13, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> As shitty as the rates are there is unlikely to be much, if any taxable income after the mileage deduction is applied. Most drivers are already in or well below the poverty level income category in any case.
> 
> IN ADDITION expense deduction can EXCEED the IRS mileage deduction allowance if actual (documented) expenses exceed that amount.


True. The sad part (in a way) is there will probably not even be a cut for the IRS. If you back out the IRS rate with one dead mile per paid mile, plus uber's cut, you need a rate of about $1.40 per paid mile to break even.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> I already lost my assumptions because I didn't save the spreadsheet, but it assumed the average trip was 6 miles and 14 minutes long (I think)


I will postulate that the assumption of an average trip being 6 miles and 14 minutes long is wildly off base.
An average trip is likely less than 3 miles and takes about about 20 minutes from Accepting to Ending the ride.

These lowered rates didn't just reduce the rate/mile & rate/minute components, they also drastically reduced the Base Fare component, and the Minimum Fare component in many cases. The result has been that there are disproportionately more shorter rides that are disproportionately less lucrative for Drivers as Uber takes $1 Safe Rides Fee + 20% commission from a $4 fare. So the Driver only gets $2.40 or 60% while Uber gets $1.60 or 40%.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

grams777 said:


> True. The sad part is there will probably not even be a cut for the IRS. If you back out the IRS rate with one dead mile per paid mile, plus uber's cut, you need a rate of about $1.40 per paid mile to break even.


Yep. At 1.20 per mile you're actually only receiving about $.60 per mile when you factor in upaid mileage for 'fetch' miles, which usually run about equal to paid miles when all the dust settles. And this is before Uber's cut, etc etc.

Now run the math after the IRS mileage deduction AND OTHER EXPENSES and you will find yourself INCOME LESS for IRS purposes.

If it wasn't for surge pricing, XL rates in some cases for me, and being able to stretch the paid/unpaid miles rate by doing 2 way airport runs I wouldn't even **** with this gig cause it's a looooser.


----------



## LAuberX (Jun 3, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> These lowered rates didn't just reduce the rate/mile & rate/minute components, they also drastically reduced the Base Fare component, and the Minimum Fare component in many cases. The result has been that there are disproportionately more shorter rides that disproportionately less lucrative for Drivers as Uber takes $1 Safe Rides Fee + 20% commission from a $4 fare. So the Driver only gets $2.40 or 60% while Uber gets $1.60 or 40%.


ch1cabby got this right.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> I will postulate that the assumption of an average trip being 6 miles and 14 minutes long is wildly off base.
> An average trip is likely less than 3 miles and takes about about 20 minutes from Accepting to Ending the ride.
> 
> These lowered rates didn't just reduce the rate/mile & rate/minute components, they also drastically reduced the Base Fare component, and the Minimum Fare component in many cases. The result has been that there are disproportionately more shorter rides that disproportionately less lucrative for Drivers as Uber takes $1 Safe Rides Fee + 20% commission from a $4 fare. So the Driver only gets $2.40 or 60% while Uber gets $1.60 or 40%.


I've worked enough $4-net $2.40 rides to say without any reservation that it is a $ LOSER without any doubt. It's basically free service provided by the drivers. If you look at your accurate figure on it killing 20 min. which can very often be true in slogged traffic *it amounts to a GROSS $7.20 an hour, yeah, BEFORE any hard cost expenses. Not to mention having all the SITTING AROUND waiting for a ping time! *Factor sit time into the equation and it's even LESS.

I don't and won't run those kinds of rides. No one should.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

Fair enough, and my apologies. Like I said, I drive Friday/Saturday nights only, and made my assumptions based on the 120ish trips I've done as a driver, and the 3 I've done as a rider. Very few have been the minimum fare. One was during the rollout period when rides were free, and someone only went about 900 feet, and another was one where I forgot to start the trip until the end, but it was like a 2 minute ride, so I just had an 8 second or so trip that the rider was charged $5 for.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Drivers really need to spend some time and come up with their own earnings comparisons. They aught to also calculate their average trip length, time & payout. They also need to compute the average of fares completed per hour. @LAuberX has done some of these computations.

But to call out Uber on the utter ridiculousness of it's claim that the Drivers' Earnings/Hour have gone up ~18% since May when the rates were lowered for riders, but the Drivers got paid at the old higher rates.

I wrote more about this in this thread:
https://uberpeople.net/threads/hey-uber-continue-to-closely-monitor-my-earnings.2345/


----------



## UberPissed (Aug 13, 2014)

Can you imagine how much money we can make if they cut the rates to $0!


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> Fair enough, and my apologies. Like I said, I drive Friday/Saturday nights only, and made my assumptions based on the 120ish trips I've done as a driver, and the 3 I've done as a rider. Very few have been the minimum fare. One was during the rollout period when rides were free, and someone only went about 900 feet, and another was one where I forgot to start the trip until the end, but it was like a 2 minute ride, so I just had an 8 second or so trip that the rider was charged $5 for.


It really only takes a day or 2 of working 12 hour days (or more,) doing 36 net $2.40 rides and realizing you just worked for 12 hours or more *for a gross $86. *to realize Ubering is an utter waste of time and a loss of your own money.

Screw that! *UberX drivers NEED to manipulate the system* any way they can to increase their take to even make it worth bothering with.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

You guys need to realize that the key for Uber's growth to meet expectations and for us to make money in such a high demand job is more rides, and minimal downtime. There's a whole world of potential riders who either don't know about Uber, are turned off by surge scares, or who know what Uber is and have decided that current prices are too expense. This isn't about Uber destroying taxis, it's about creating a market for these potential riders, and I'm pretty sure that things like protests, canceling short rides, attempting to manipulate surge, having bad attitudes, etc. aren't going to grow the customer base.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Let's keep this thread clean of any off topic, emotional, knee jerk, non-factual, non-numbers based posts. Please post here after you do some numbers crunching. 
Let's get some solid data from multitude of Drivers. If you have posted off topic on this thread, please go back to delete or edit your comments. 

This thread will serve a greater purpose in the coming few weeks.
Please trust me on this.
Thank you!


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> You guys need to realize that the key for Uber's growth to meet expectations and for us to make money in such a high demand job is more rides, and minimal downtime. There's a whole world of potential riders who either don't know about Uber, are turned off by surge scares, or who know what Uber is and have decided that current prices are too expense. This isn't about Uber destroying taxis, it's about creating a market for these potential riders, and I'm pretty sure that things like protests, canceling short rides, attempting to manipulate surge, having bad attitudes, etc. aren't going to grow the customer base.


Your so full of crap I discount your Uber pimping entirely. Were it not for surge fares Ubering is a money looooser. So, surge fares are the only way this gig can be justified, i.e. REALISTIC fares.

If they want ME to drive people for nothing TO INCREASE THEIR FAN BASE they can kiss my ASS.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> Let's keep this thread clean of any off topic, emotional, knee jerk, non-factual, non-numbers based posts. Please post here after you do some numbers crunching.
> Let's get some solid data from multitude of Drivers. If you have posted off topic on this thread, please go back to delete or edit your comments.
> 
> This thread will serve a greater purpose in the coming few weeks.
> ...


As a supposed rep, assuming you are a spokes person for organization of some sort, I would like all of you guys to press for full time LEGAL insurance as the priority item. What is going on now is a public atrocity. This should be, even as you have already noted, the Achilles heel of this setup.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

This is the kind of number crunching that drivers should be doing:

The Payment Statement for Rachel Galindo for the period ending at September 29, 2014 at 04:00am is available at:

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=06c244c4e29a11bc&id=6C244C4E29A11BC!153316&ithint=file,pdf&authkey=!AETB-NeoifAHybI

https://m.facebook.com/RachelGal90201?ref=m_notif&notif_t=group_activity










*Edit:* In this thread Rachel Galindo explains her situation & her accounting:
*Who will win the ridesharing war? Probably not consumers.*


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> This is the kind of number crunching that drivers should be doing:
> 
> The Payment Statement for Rachel Galindo for the period ending at September 29, 2014 at 04:00am is available at: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=6C244C4E29A11BC!153316&authkey=!AETB-NeoifAHybI&ithint=file%2cpdf
> 
> ...


Thanks for reprinting the FACTS!

And hey, *working 77+ hours for $300 or so ain't that bad, huh?* Been there, done that.

Yes, to *make money *Ubering you must work 7 12+ hour days for damn near nothing.

lol


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> As a supposed rep, assuming you are a spokes person for organization of some sort,


I'm neither of that. 
I Am A Cab Driver In Chicago, who does UberTaxi!
I just have the attention of many reporters who cover Uber, because I purvey in facts.
https://uberpeople.net/xfa-blog-entry/uberpeople-net-in-the-media.8/
And many more articles on Uber have been published since the blog post.



scrurbscrud said:


> I would like all of you guys to press for full time LEGAL insurance as the priority item. What is going on now is a public atrocity. This should be, even as you have already noted, the Achilles heel of this setup.


I understand that you feel strongly about the Insurance issue, but this is not the thread for that. Please use some restraint and judgement in this thread.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> I'm neither of that.
> I Am A Cab Driver In Chicago, who does UberTaxi!
> I just have the attention of many reporters who cover Uber, because I purvey in facts.
> https://uberpeople.net/xfa-blog-entry/uberpeople-net-in-the-media.8/
> ...


It's not a matter of feeling strongly about this fact. It's a matter of driving without insurance. *A blatantly illegal activity from what I can tell that every UberX driver is in. You can mitigate this matter all you want. *Why everyone is pouting about tips and stars when they (including myself) have been enticed by Uber into insurance lawlessness land is worthless compared to any other issue.

Making double the $ and being a lawless citizen behind the wheel *is still worthless and a danger to every driver and everyone on the road.*

*Tips and stars? Spare me.*


----------



## Jeeves (Apr 10, 2014)

I still don't see why Sherpa Share doesn't reveal the earnings per hour of the drivers before and after rate cuts. Talk about a popular blog post. They would get the media attention and everything I would think. They would need to include trip miles so we can see that even IF rides and fares increased, so did costs.


----------



## OldTownSean (Aug 14, 2014)

Jeeves said:


> I still don't see why Sherpa Share doesn't reveal the earnings per hour of the drivers before and after rate cuts. Talk about a popular blog post. They would get the media attention and everything I would think. They would need to include trip miles so we can see that even IF rides and fares increased, so did costs.


I would say drivers made twice as much before the most recent cuts.


----------



## FLrocket (Oct 17, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> It's not a matter of feeling strongly about this fact. It's a matter of driving without insurance. *A blatantly illegal activity from what I can tell that every UberX driver is in. You can mitigate this matter all you want. *Why everyone is pouting about tips and stars when they (including myself) have been enticed by Uber into insurance lawlessness land is worthless compared to any other issue.
> 
> Making double the $ and being a lawless citizen behind the wheel *is still worthless and a danger to every driver and everyone on the road.*
> 
> *Tips and stars? Spare me.*


Dude, you seriously need to take a step back and realize that we have read your other 500 posts about how lawless the Uber insurance situation is. Try to keep on topic, man. Otherwise you just come across as someone hyperventilating.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> This is the kind of number crunching that drivers should be doing:
> 
> The Payment Statement for Rachel Galindo for the period ending at September 29, 2014 at 04:00am is available at: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=6C244C4E29A11BC!153316&authkey=!AETB-NeoifAHybI&ithint=file%2cpdf
> 
> ...


That math is horribly flawed. I checked current LA gas prices, and they are $3.20/gallon. Let's assume that Rachel's car gets 30 MPG. For the amount of miles she drives a week, that's $125.44 in gas. Now she has $658.56 in car costs. Subtract the $125.44 from that amount, and you're left with $533.12/week. That's $27,722.24 a year!

Do you really think she's spending $27k+ a year for car payment, repairs, and depreciation? I financed 100% of my Mazda 3 for 5 years, and it comes out to $4,140/year in payments. Obviously if I was a full time Uber driver doing 1,000 miles a week, I wouldn't get 5 good years out of my 3, so let's instead say she's financing a $20,000 car for 2 years at 3.99% (which was among the higher rates I found in my area when checking bankrate.com - my interest rate is 1.93%), that's a monthly payment of $868.41, or $10,420.92/year. Subtract that from the $27,722.24 and you're down to $17,301.32.

I'll stick with the Mazda 3 theme since that's what I'm familiar with, and I'll look up what the 2012 version of my car (which is acutally a previous generation) is worth with 105k on it. Private party value is $6,777. Using KBB private party values, the car is worth $6,777 with 105k miles. However, if you were using this car as transportation for a regular job, and put 40,000 miles on the car, it would have a private party value of $10,229. So, IMO, the true cost of depreciation as it relates to Uber is the difference between the value of a 40,000 mile car, and the difference between a 105,000 mile car. Depreciation as I see it is $4,885.00 Now we're at $12,415.82 in unattributed car expenses.

The cheapest set of tires that I'd put on my car (assuming I still had the stock 16" wheels, which I sold like 2 weeks after I bought it) are $236/set from Tire Rack. Add $40 for shipping, and let's say $80 for mounting and balancing, and that's a $356 cost. If I get 35,000 miles out of a set of tires, that's an expense that I'll incur twice, so $700ish. Maybe $1,050 if I feel that installing new tires to replace the ones that are nearly done at 105k when I go to sell would increase the perceived value more than $350. Brakes, if you do them yourself, will cost on most compact cars about $120 for pads and rotors. We'll say I do those twice, so $240. If you're sticking to 7,500 mile oil change interval, that's 14 or so oil changes at maybe $30/each, so $420 for oil costs. Subtract the maintenance items and we're at $11,055.82 left for repairs.

What are the odds that a driver will have $11k in repair costs on a 2 year old car, even at 100,000 miles? I went to 190k on my Mazda Protege and never had a part cost more than $250. Keep in mind too that with the Mazda, 36,000 of the 105k miles have a bumper-to-bumper warranty, and 60,000 of them have a powertrain warranty.


----------



## FLrocket (Oct 17, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> That math is horribly flawed. I checked current LA gas prices, and they are $3.20/gallon. Let's assume that Rachel's car gets 30 MPG. For the amount of miles she drives a week, that's $125.44 in gas. Now she has $658.56 in car costs. Subtract the $125.44 from that amount, and you're left with $533.12/week. That's $27,722.24 a year!
> 
> Do you really think she's spending $27k+ a year for car payment, repairs, and depreciation? I financed 100% of my Mazda 3 for 5 years, and it comes out to $4,140/year in payments. Obviously if I was a full time Uber driver doing 1,000 miles a week, I wouldn't get 5 good years out of my 3, so let's instead say she's financing a $20,000 car for 2 years at 3.99% (which was among the higher rates I found in my area when checking bankrate.com - my interest rate is 1.93%), that's a monthly payment of $868.41, or $10,420.92/year. Subtract that from the $27,722.24 and you're down to $17,301.32.
> 
> ...


I fully agree. As an accountant, Rachel's numbers, to me, also seem critically flawed. The difference, as you point out, is that she is considering her taxable net for these calculations -- which are clearly not actual net earnings. Her actual net earnings (as opposed to book net earnings) are higher than represented here. But it is what it is. The point remains that Uber drivers make far less than advertised.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

I just realized too that I made some mistakes in my calculations. I took depreciation and car payment costs out on an annual basis, but I subtracted the entire two years of maintenance out from a single year.

Also, when she goes to buy her next car, she now has $6,700 to put towards a down payment, and, assuming that the 2 year loan proved good credit, a 1.99% interest rate for a $565.73 monthly payment on her next 2 year loan of $13,000.


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> It's not a matter of feeling strongly about this fact. It's a matter of driving without insurance. *A blatantly illegal activity from what I can tell that every UberX driver is in. You can mitigate this matter all you want. *Why everyone is pouting about tips and stars when they (including myself) have been enticed by Uber into insurance lawlessness land is worthless compared to any other issue.
> 
> Making double the $ and being a lawless citizen behind the wheel *is still worthless and a danger to every driver and everyone on the road.*
> 
> *Tips and stars? Spare me.*


You have good points but are posting them in the wrong thread. Come on Dude, start you own thread or find one that is on topic. Thanks.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> You have good points but are posting them in the wrong thread. Come on Dude, start you own thread or find one that is on topic. Thanks.


Haha, at first you were talking about me, but then I realized that when you have a member on ignore, it hides their posts and it hides the posts of theirs that are quoted. It does kinda make reading the forum difficult when you have such a loud member on ignore.


----------



## DCUberXGrrrl (Aug 25, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> This is the kind of number crunching that drivers should be doing:
> 
> The Payment Statement for Rachel Galindo for the period ending at September 29, 2014 at 04:00am is available at: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=6C244C4E29A11BC!153316&authkey=!AETB-NeoifAHybI&ithint=file%2cpdf
> 
> ...


What an awesome analytics sheet! How did you create this -- is there a template where we can replicate this and plug in our own numbers?


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> Subtract the maintenance items and we're at $11,055.82 left for repairs.


I don't see any deduction for insurance in your calculations. Let's assume she spends $3600/year for insurance, and has ZERO other repair expenses.
$11055 - $3600 = $7455 
$7455/52weeks = $143/week 
$143/70hours = $2/hour



FLrocket said:


> difference, as you point out, is that she is considering her taxable net for these calculations -- which are clearly not actual net earnings.


That $2/hour is the difference between her taxable income and actual income. 
*That gives her the Uber's "get rich now" income of $6.28/Hour.*


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

DCUberXGrrrl said:


> What an awesome analytics sheet!


This spreadsheet is the work of Rachel Galindo @Rachel Galindo on the forum, @rachel_gal on Twitter.

She posted about her calculations on this thread:
https://uberpeople.net/threads/who-...probably-not-consumers.4513/page-2#post-51634


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> I don't see any deduction for insurance in your calculations. Let's assume she spends $3600/year for insurance, and has ZERO other repair expenses.
> $11055 - $3600 = $7455
> $7455/52weeks = $143/week
> $143/70hours = $2/hour


I intentionally excluded insurance and registration (I had it noted, then I must have deleted it) as those are costs that she would still be incurring if employed elsewhere.

I can't see the analytics sheet at work, just the image you posted, but is there a breakdown of the fares by hour of the day? I bet that she's probably driving during a lot of hours that may not be worth driving in, or in areas that aren't necessarily high demand. One of my best weeks had $45/hour with about 7 hours driven, but I think I made about $20 total in the first 3 of those. I would have been better off staying home.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> Also, when she goes to buy her next car, she now has $6,700 to put towards a down payment, and, assuming that the 2 year loan proved good credit, a 1.99% interest rate for a $565.73 monthly payment on her next 2 year loan of $13,000.


Please do calculations of your own earnings for taxable income and actual income.
Since you are a part-time driver you will come up with much higher numbers than @Rachel Galindo . This will only highlight the disparity of income between part-time drivers who work mostly during busier & more lucrative hours, and the full-time Drivers who also work the less lucrative weekday hours.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> I intentionally excluded insurance and registration (


 She drives full time (70hrs/week). She bought the car specifically for Uber driving. So her insurance cost has to be included in the calculations.
You can read more about it here:

https://uberpeople.net/threads/who-w...probably-not-consumers.4513/page-2#post-51634



Sean O'Gorman said:


> I can't see the analytics sheet at work, just the image you posted, but is there a breakdown of the fares by hour of the day?


You can download her pay statement here:
https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=06c2...3316&ithint=file,pdf&authkey=!AETB-NeoifAHybI


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> She drives full time (70hrs/week). She bought the car specifically for Uber driving. So her insurance cost has to be included in the calculations.
> You can read more about it here:
> 
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/who-w...probably-not-consumers.4513/page-2#post-51634
> ...


So if she didn't buy the car for Uber, she wouldn't own car at all? At most, if someone was upgrading their car in order to meet UberX requirements, I'd allow in the difference in premium between the old car and the new one. That being said, every time I've purchased a newer car, my insurance has gone down, because the newer car has more safety features. The only exception was when I replaced my 2004 Mazda RX-8, because A) I had a claim on my policy, and B) the insurance industry sees this:










with this tiny motor:










and considers it a 1.3 liter 4 door sedan. I paid like $270/year for full coverage on that thing, thought it might also be that underwriters are smarter than I thought, and knew that an RX-8 wouldn't be much of an insurance risk when it's constantly sitting in the garage with motor problems or because the owner is tired of paying for 93 octane on a 15 MPG car.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> So if she didn't buy the car for Uber, she wouldn't own car at all?


You Can Not be serious about not including insurance cost for a car used for full time Uber driving to the tune of 70hrs/week!
Show your own earnings numbers like @Rachel Galindo so it can shine a light on Part-time drivers skimming the cream while discounting Full-time Drivers' Real Grievances!


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> That math is horribly flawed. I checked current LA gas prices, and they are $3.20/gallon. Let's assume that Rachel's car gets 30 MPG. For the amount of miles she drives a week, that's $125.44 in gas. Now she has $658.56 in car costs. Subtract the $125.44 from that amount, and you're left with $533.12/week. *That's $27,722.24 a year!*


Which now makes Rachel's pay *$6.90 an hour*, even using your math and providing her car for doing the yob.

$27,722.24/77 hours per week X 52 weeks a year.

Why don't you come out of the Uber shill closet Sean?


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Which now makes Rachel's pay *$6.90 an hour*, even using your math and providing her car for doing the yob.
> 
> $27,722.24/77 hours per week X 52 weeks a year.
> 
> Why don't you come out of the Uber shill closet Sean?


Working 77 hours per week, 52 hours per year. There's some real quality of life living going on there. It looks sort of like this thread has died due to the math battle shown above. Why not call it a draw and see what new posts come through?


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> You Can Not be serious about not including insurance cost for a car used for full time Uber driving to the tune of 70hrs/week!
> Show your own earnings numbers like @Rachel Galindo so it can shine a light on Part-time drivers skimming the cream while discounting Full-time Drivers' Real Grievances!


The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 prior to starting Uber: $842/year.
The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 while Ubering part time: $842/year.
The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 if I was a full time Uber driver: $842/year.
The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 if I were to quit driving Uber altogether: $842/year.

For purposes of calculating expenses to deduct from Uber income, it only matters if you previously did not own a vehicle and bought one specifically for Uber, or if you had to upgrade your car to a newer/nicer one in order to qualify. Otherwise, it's like saying, "hey, I got this awesome district manager job that pays me $75k a year, but car insurance for me is $1200/year so I'm really making $73,800."

And don't start that BS about part timers "skimming" from full time drivers. If it wasn't for us part timers picking up the slack when demand gets heavy, there wouldn't be an Uber, because no one would choose to use a service that was totally unreliable. It's why I've said that surge fares aren't the awesome thing that some of you think it is, you're cashing in on short term demand inequality at the expense of a long term customer base. If someone ended up with a $120 ride and decides, F Uber, I'm done, and would have otherwise used the service another 8 times that year at an average of $25/trip, that's $40 in lost revenue for Uber and $160 for its pool of drivers, of which you the driver might have seen.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> Working 77 hours per week, 52 hours per year. There's some real quality of life living going on there. It looks sort of like this thread has died due to the math battle shown above. Why not call it a draw and see what new posts come through?


Yeah, that's a pretty accurate picture Rachel has provided. Now where is Uber's advertised claims again?

Oh, yeah, *you too can work TWO YEARS worth of time in ONE YEAR and make $27,722. You lucky unemployed DOG you!*


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 prior to starting Uber: $842/year.
> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 while Ubering part time: $842/year.
> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 if I was a full time Uber driver: $842/year.
> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 if I were to quit driving Uber altogether: $842/year.
> ...


I'm not even sure what part timers VS full timers has to do with this thread. The question is pretty straight forward. Do you make more money, less money or the same after Uber cuts their rates. Uber claims drivers will make more. Have you? Part time...full time...who gives a shit? If you can't answer the question without some sort of NASA inspired quantum physics algebra, then just say, "I don't know." and move on.


----------



## OldTownSean (Aug 14, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Which now makes Rachel's pay *$6.90 an hour*, even using your math and providing her car for doing the yob.
> 
> $27,722.24/77 hours per week X 52 weeks a year.
> 
> Why don't you come out of the Uber shill closet Sean?


Huh?


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> And don't start that BS about part timers "skimming" from full time drivers.


Part timers DO skim. They come out by the score only on the best nights of the week, Fri.-Sun. and duck in for a few bucks during surge times during the week if they can do it. They'd be fools not to drive this way.

I'd bet the surge rates would go through the roof without them and full timers could make some actual real money.


----------



## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Our fares are still at $1.40, and I still feel like U


Sean O'Gorman said:


> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 prior to starting Uber: $842/year.
> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 while Ubering part time: $842/year.
> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 if I was a full time Uber driver: $842/year.
> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 if I were to quit driving Uber altogether: $842/year.
> ...


I doubt most of those 'surge chasers' that work a few hours a week would make it a week functioning as a 'real' driver. Of course if there was any type of licensing requirement or driver training involved, most of the workforce would be gone anyway, and Uber would have to at least make it possible to earn minimum wage. I never thought I'd aspire to earn minimum wage. Oh, that's right - I DON'T!


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

DriverJ said:


> Our fares are still at $1.40, and I still feel like U
> 
> I doubt most of those 'surge chasers' that work a few hours a week would make it a week functioning as a 'real' driver. Of course if there was any type of licensing requirement or driver training involved, most of the workforce would be gone anyway, and Uber would have to at least make it possible to earn minimum wage. I never thought I'd aspire to earn minimum wage. Oh, that's right - I DON'T!


I was reading through Colorado's legislation yesterday brushing up on what other states have legislated for TNC's.

I was very surprised to see that there is a distinct possibility that drivers could possibly be subject to random substance testing...which is probably going to wipe out 2/3's of the under 25 year old part time ride share driver crowd in that state...because of legalized pot.

There's hope! heh heh


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Part timers DO skim. They come out by the score only on the best nights of the week, Fri.-Sun. and duck in for a few bucks during surge times during the week if they can do it. They'd be fools not to drive this way.
> 
> I'd bet the surge rates would go through the roof without them and full timers could make some actual real money.


I imagine you are correct. The answer then (In my book) is to be a part timer and cherry pick the best times and locations so you can make the most $$ for the least amount of time and effort. What's your point? If it's to make part timers feel guilty then your battle is uphill.....on ice. You have sufficiently confused me. Saying that part timers "skim" like it's a bad thing doesn't really make much sense. Are you proposing that Uber drivers should only work full time and not try to figure out how to play this bullshit Uber game to the best of their ability? Please explain, I'm really curious.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 prior to starting Uber: $842/year.
> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 while Ubering part time: $842/year.
> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 if I was a full time Uber driver: $842/year.
> The cost of insurance for my 2014 Mazda 3 if I were to quit driving Uber altogether: $842/year.


Now you plainly trolling on this thread with the sole objective of muddying the debate. Are such postings a part of the job description of a self-admitted "Uber Promoter" like you? She Financed the car for Full Time Uber Driving. So she HAS TO carry full coverage insurance. You as an admitted insurance adjuster know full well that it will conservatively cost her $300/month.


Sean O'Gorman said:


> And don't start that BS about part timers "skimming" from full time drivers. If it wasn't for us part timers picking up the slack when demand gets heavy


Part-time Drivers who typically work the busier, more Surge Pricing prone hours ARE skimming the cream. Full-time Drivers don't have that luxury as many of their daytime work hours are spent awaiting Ride Requests that will most likely be without Surge Pricing. So they are in fact working during the "slack demand" hours if not exactly "picking up the slack". The Part-time Drivers are akin to mercenaries who show up when the "price is right"!

Edit: The point I'm trying to get across is that there has to some equity between full-time drivers making $6 - $9 per hour and the part-time drivers making $15 - $20 per hour. That can be easily achieved by raising the Base Rates say ~25%, about what they were b4 the latest cuts.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> I imagine you are correct. The answer then (In my book) is to be a part timer and cherry pick the best times and locations so you can make the most $$ for the least amount of time and effort. What's your point? If it's to make part timers feel guilty then your battle is uphill.....on ice. You have sufficiently confused me. Saying that part timers "skim" like it's a bad thing doesn't really make much sense. Are you proposing that Uber drivers should only work full time and not try to figure out how to play this bullshit Uber game to the best of their ability? Please explain, I'm really curious.


I sure don't hold it against any driver to make a buck, part timers included. If we had any sense those are the only times we should drive anyway because those are the only real paydays available. The balance drivers waste time and more than likely are making $2-4 bucks an hour, if that. It's gotten so slow in my city that even getting $4 pings is tightening dramatically because there are so many unemployed people out Ubering.

I think Uber should make large treadmills or turnstyles (ala Conan the Barbarian with electricity capabilities) and use the unemployed to make electricity to power Travis' dream of hopefully driverless electric cars to run us back and forth to the turnstyles.

Yeah, that's it! What was I thinking?!


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> I sure don't hold it against any driver to make a buck, part timers included. If we had any sense those are the only times we should drive anyway because those are the only real paydays available. The balance drivers waste time and more than likely are making $2-4 bucks an hour, if that. It's gotten so slow in my city that even getting $4 pings is tightening dramatically because there are so many unemployed people out Ubering.
> 
> I think Uber should make large treadmills or turnstyles (ala Conan the Barbarian with electricity capabilities) and use the unemployed to make electricity to power Travis' dream of hopefully driverless electric cars to run us back and forth to the turnstyles.
> 
> Yeah, that's it! What was I thinking?!


So I guess the moral of the story is: 1. Don't make Uber a full time job. 2. Don't believe anything that Uber says or sends in a email or text message.


----------



## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> I was reading through Colorado's legislation yesterday brushing up on what other states have legislated for TNC's.
> 
> I was very surprised to see that there is a distinct possibility that drivers could possibly be subject to random substance testing...which is probably going to wipe out 2/3's of the under 25 year old part time ride share driver crowd in that state...because of legalized pot.
> 
> There's hope! heh heh


A national math quiz should take care of a big percentage of the rest, as I sure as hell can't understand how they can be figuring they're making good money. I guess it goes back to the Surge Surfers, some specific markets or something. I just know that I'm making less than half what I did on my last job, and I have no benefits.

One good thing though - my car should be totally useless by the end of the year, so I won't have to worry about putting anymore money into it.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> I imagine you are correct. The answer then (In my book) is to be a part timer and cherry pick the best times and locations so you can make the most $$ for the least amount of time and effort. What's your point? If it's to make part timers feel guilty then your battle is uphill.....on ice. You have sufficiently confused me. Saying that part timers "skim" like it's a bad thing doesn't really make much sense. Are you proposing that Uber drivers should only work full time and not try to figure out how to play this bullshit Uber game to the best of their ability? Please explain, I'm really curious.


My point was that Rachel's spreadsheet grossly exaggerates her expenses as a driver. When chi1cabby said that I excluded insurance from my figures, I said that If you intend to own a car whether or not you Uber, you still owe auto insurance, therefore it isn't relevant.

Look at it this way: Person A and Person B both own identical cars. Person A drives for Uber and makes $35,000/year in net fares. Person B works as a bank teller and makes $35,000/year. Both own vehicles for personal use, and pay $1,000/year for auto insurance. Why would it be fair to conclude that Person A makes $34,000/year, and Person B $35,000?

Obviously you're going to deduct work-related fuel costs, the additional depreciation, and maintenance expenses from your Uber fares to determine what you really made, but insurance and registration are not part of the picture.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

DriverJ said:


> A national math quiz should take care of a big percentage of the rest, as I sure as hell can't understand how they can be figuring they're making good money. I guess it goes back to the Surge Surfers, some specific markets or something. I just know that I'm making about half what I did on my last job, and I have no benefits.
> 
> One good thing though - my car should be totally useless by the end of the year, so I won't have to worry about putting anymore money into it.


Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to buy a good used XL vehicle at the end of next year with my Sean *O'Gore*man projected $27,722. I earned driving 4000+ hours per year because mine should be well north of 300,000 miles by that point.


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> My point was that Rachel's spreadsheet grossly exaggerates her expenses as a driver. When chi1cabby said that I excluded insurance from my figures, I said that If you intend to own a car whether or not you Uber, you still owe auto insurance, therefore it isn't relevant.
> 
> Look at it this way: Person A and Person B both own identical cars. Person A drives for Uber and makes $35,000/year in net fares. Person B works as a bank teller and makes $35,000/year. Both own vehicles for personal use, and pay $1,000/year for auto insurance. Why would it be fair to conclude that Person A makes $34,000/year, and Person B $35,000?
> 
> Obviously you're going to deduct work-related fuel costs, the additional depreciation, and maintenance expenses from your Uber fares to determine what you really made, but insurance and registration are not part of the picture.


I think we should all call our insurance companies and let them know we are Uber /********* drivers logging 30,000 or more miles on our cars driving drunks around town at 3AM. If we all call them today, then I imagine we won't need to worry about calculating the cost of insurance into our P&L formulas anymore.


----------



## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to buy a good used XL vehicle at the end of next year with my Sean *O'Gore*man projected $27,722. I earned driving 4000+ hours per year because mine should be well north of 300,000 miles by that point.


Hopefully, by the the time our cars die they'll have the new 'UberTow' program up and running. It's supposed to debut at $.25/mile (before cuts). Then we can load-up the Uber PAXs/jetsetters in our worthless cars and request an UberTow mobile to pull us around. Of course, I imagine UberX fares will be $.26/mile by then, so the margins will be a little thin.


----------



## RippGutt (Sep 6, 2014)

I am a "part time" driver..I drive the weekends mainly because those are the best opportunities to get surge fares. I will say that I am open to driving a few days during the week after my full time job if the rates were better. As of now, it makes no sense for me to drive at the regular rate. The goal is to make money while limiting cost as much as possible. If that means only driving the surges on weekends, then so be it.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> Now you plainly trolling on this thread with the sole objective of muddying the debate. Are such postings a part of the job description of a self-admitted "Uber Promoter" like you? She Financed the car for Full Time Uber Driving. So she HAS TO carry full coverage insurance. You as an admitted insurance adjuster know full well that it will conservatively cost her $300/month.


I'm aware that $300/month is what it would cost her to insure her car in LA, probably mine too. It's a 2014 that I took a loan out on, and I obviously need full coverage as well. $842 is my legitimate cost of insurance for $100,000 single limit liability (property damage and bodily injury), $100,000 UM/UIM, $5,000 medical payments, $250 comprehensive, $500 collision, $100 roadside, and $40/day rental car coverage in Cleveland, Ohio. My girlfriend's Jetta went from like $2,000/year to insure to about $700 or so when she moved from LA to Cleveland last year, with no change in coverage. I'm not trolling, I'm just using the figures that I'm accustomed to living in the midwest. It doesn't change things other than suggesting that your dollar goes further in areas that people don't want to live in, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.



> Part-time Drivers who typically work the busier, more Surge Pricing prone hours ARE skimming the cream. Full-time Drivers don't have that luxury as many of their daytime work hours are spent awaiting Ride Requests that will most likely be without Surge Pricing. So they are in fact working during the "slack demand" hours if not exactly "picking up the slack". The Part-time Drivers are akin to mercenaries who show up when the "price is right"!
> 
> Edit: The point I'm trying to get across is that there has to some equity between full-time drivers making $6 - $9 per hour and the part-time drivers making $15 - $20 per hour. That can be easily achieved by raising the Base Rates say ~25%, about what they were b4 the latest cuts.


When I say "picking up the slack", I don't mean that they are doing the work that full timers are incapable of doing, I'm just saying that they show up at times when demand on the Uber system is at its highest. If you're Uber, and you (assume this is a tiny city) have a constant demand of about 80-120 riders at all time, and peak demand of 500 at busy times, do you only onboard 100 drivers so that all 100 are ensured full time work? No, because then you have 400 pissed off potential customers who can't get rides and don't come back. So you have 500 drivers of various levels of commitment to meet demand as needed.

I don't know how you could strike an equitable balance when, at least in markets like mine, there are typically only 16 busy hours a week (source: the old driver reports we got via email), and they happen to always fall during hours when a 9-5er is off work from their primary job. Even though I'm full time employed, there's nothing stopping me from doing airport runs from 5AMish to 8ish, going to the office, then driving again on busy weekday nights, Friday/Saturday nights, and Saturday or Sunday mornings/afternoons in NCAA/NFL markets.


----------



## driveLA (Aug 15, 2014)

The stupid lil charts/graphs this uber schmucks use leave out a key part of the math. 

The the endless flood of drivers in the streets. 

Ya logically if you decrease prices, more rider might be created. Meaning more rides per hour. 

BUT these con artists aren't taking all the new drivers coming into the system into account in any of their propaganda. 

I really think eventually Uber will be investigated by the authorities. This whole thing runs like a scam.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

RippGutt said:


> I am a "part time" driver..I drive the weekends mainly because those are the best opportunities to get surge fares. I will say that I am open to driving a few days during the week after my full time job *if the rates were better*. As of now, *it makes no sense for me to drive at the regular rate.* The goal is to make money while limiting cost as much as possible. If *that means only driving the surges* on weekends, then so be it.


The full time drivers will get the same picture soon enough *i.e. it only pays to Uber if you're paid a sufficient price. * Since the real pay times (surges) are what is needed, the surge space becomes more crowded with drivers and the surges disappear anyway.

The amount and multiple of surges has been steadily dropping where I drive, and I suspect this is the big reason. When the surges disappear, the drunks can put their thumbs out for all I care. Drive drunk and go to JAIL. I ain't driving any drunks without surge pricing, especially having to work the worst of all possible hours and the times you have to be on the road, in the middle of the night, surrounded by drunk drivers.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> I think we should all call our insurance companies and let them know we are Uber /********* drivers logging 30,000 or more miles on our cars driving drunks around town at 3AM. If we all call them today, then I imagine we won't need to worry about calculating the cost of insurance into our P&L formulas anymore.


Sorry, I forgot, all the full time Uber drivers went out of their way to get commercial insurance and I forgot to factor that in.

Fine, if you have commercial insurance for UberX, by all means figure that in to your expenses. And let everyone else know where you got it so that the subject can be put to rest.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> Sorry, I forgot, all the full time Uber drivers went out of their way to get commercial insurance and I forgot to factor that in.
> 
> Fine, if you have commercial insurance for UberX, by all means figure that in to your expenses. And let everyone else know where you got it so that the subject can be put to rest.


Indeed. Let's run the numbers now. 30% to Uber, 30% to the insurance company...oh shit.


----------



## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

driveLA said:


> The stupid lil charts/graphs this uber schmucks use leave out a key part of the math.
> 
> The the endless flood of drivers in the streets.
> 
> ...


They have to have a never-ending stream of drivers coming in. They know the ones with functioning brains will eventually quit, and the others will simply run out of money, and be found on the side of the road, out of gas, and dead from starvation.


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> I'm aware that $300/month is what it would cost her to insure her car in LA, probably mine too. It's a 2014 that I took a loan out on, and I obviously need full coverage as well. $842 is my legitimate cost of insurance for $100,000 single limit liability (property damage and bodily injury), $100,000 UM/UIM, $5,000 medical payments, $250 comprehensive, $500 collision, $100 roadside, and $40/day rental car coverage in Cleveland, Ohio. My girlfriend's Jetta went from like $2,000/year to insure to about $700 or so when she moved from LA to Cleveland last year, with no change in coverage. I'm not trolling, I'm just using the figures that I'm accustomed to living in the midwest. It doesn't change things other than suggesting that your dollar goes further in areas that people don't want to live in, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.
> 
> When I say "picking up the slack", I don't mean that they are doing the work that full timers are incapable of doing, I'm just saying that they show up at times when demand on the Uber system is at its highest. If you're Uber, and you (assume this is a tiny city) have a constant demand of about 80-120 riders at all time, and peak demand of 500 at busy times, do you only onboard 100 drivers so that all 100 are ensured full time work? No, because then you have 400 pissed off potential customers who can't get rides and don't come back. So you have 500 drivers of various levels of commitment to meet demand as needed.
> 
> I don't know how you could strike an equitable balance when, at least in markets like mine, there are typically only 16 busy hours a week (source: the old driver reports we got via email), and they happen to always fall during hours when a 9-5er is off work from their primary job. Even though I'm full time employed, there's nothing stopping me from doing airport runs from 5AMish to 8ish, going to the office, then driving again on busy weekday nights, Friday/Saturday nights, and Saturday or Sunday mornings/afternoons in NCAA/NFL markets.


When did this thread become a discussion about how to strike an equitable balance between part time and full time? What does having drivers of various levels have to do with this thread? What I would like to see is how many people are making more money in markets where Uber has dropped their rate. They claimed we would. Were they correct? Simply put, discussions that drift way off topic take away from the point of this thread. Start you own thread. It could be how do we make things equitable for part timers and full timers.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> When did this thread become a discussion about how to strike an equitable balance between part time and full time? What does having drivers of various levels have to do with this thread? What I would like to see is how many people are making more money in markets where Uber has dropped their rate. They claimed we would. Were they correct? Simply put, discussions that drift way off topic take away from the point of this thread. Start you own thread. It could be how do we make things equitable for part timers and full timers.


Who said that the two subjects aren't related?

My guess is that the chart is very vague for a reason. For all we know, they arrived at 17% by having 90% of their drivers go from doing 6 trips a week to 10, and seeing a increase in income, and have 10% of their drivers being full timers who saw revenues decrease.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> Who said that the two subjects aren't related?
> 
> My guess is that the chart is very vague for a reason. For all we know, they arrived at 17% by having 90% of their drivers go from doing 6 trips a week to 10, and seeing a increase in income, .


That's not how it works Sean. *Drivers technically could have an increase in GROSS fares while simultaneously having their profit margins slashed in half or more.*

That means DRIVE MORE but MAKE LESS.

*Uber on!*


----------



## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Indeed. Let's run the numbers now. 30% to Uber, 30% to the insurance company...oh shit.


No need to worry! The next fare cut will ensure you're able to cover the cost. Remember Uber's golden formula - Less Money = More Money! I'm f'n dumbfounded. Every time I wake up I think this crazy reality must have surely been a weird dream.


----------



## Farman vegas (Aug 8, 2014)

LAuberX said:


> Lower rates don't work when they add hundreds of new drivers every month. The increase in ridership they claim is overwhelmed by the number of drivers on the grid.
> 
> Lower fares just mean even when you are "busy" you are making less. Less per mile. Less per minute. there are only 60 minutes in an hour, when rates go down you make less.
> 
> ...


I hate to tell you this but it is thousands of drivers a month. In five days and 11 meetings in Las Vegas over one thousand drivers sign up to be an Uber drivers. The Hampton Inn could not hold the future Uber drivers.
Hundreds more will sign up. People waited 3 hours with 10 Uber reps working non stop Tuesday. It would not surprise me if 5000 drivers will sign up to be an elite highly paid Uber drivers. Everyday the numbers grow.


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

This just happened:






































The Twitlonger post cited in my initial tweet is: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sdcoln

Then I cite this thread as "The Verdict".

The thread about "Insane Hours" is:
https://uberpeople.net/threads/insane-hours-promotion-who-does-this.4253/


----------



## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Farman vegas said:


> I hate to tell you this but it is thousands of drivers a month. In five days and 11 meetings in Las Vegas over one thousand drivers sign up to be an Uber drivers. The Hampton Inn could not hold the future Uber drivers.
> Hundreds more will sign up. People waited 3 hours with 10 Uber reps working non stop Tuesday. It would not surprise me if 5000 drivers will sign up to be an elite highly paid Uber drivers. Everyday the numbers grow.


Pretty soon we won't need Uber. Everyone will be a rideshare driver. You'll walk out the door, flag down the first car, jump in, pay the driver in cash, and off you go.

Uber indeed!


----------



## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> This just happened:
> 
> View attachment 1886
> View attachment 1887
> ...


No way. You would need to be robbing your passengers at gunpoint to make 20K per month with Uber. If this were in fact true, I would never allow this to go public. One can only imagine the lack of sleep and dangerous conditions this particular driver imposed on his unsuspecting passengers. Dear God.... Doesn't Uber care about anything but $$$$.


----------



## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> No way. You would need to be robbing your passengers at gunpoint to make 20K per month with Uber. If this were in fact true, I would never allow this to go public. One can only imagine the lack of sleep and dangerous conditions this particular driver imposed on his unsuspecting passengers. Dear God.... Doesn't Uber care about anything but $$$$.


You already know the answer to that question, I'm sure. When drug-fueled drivers start killing and maming people, and the big settlements and even more negative attention starts hitting Uber, the government will take action. It's an abusive, illegal, wild, wild west now, but not for long.

One of my riders asked me last night how many hours I was 'allowed' to work in a week. I said, '168.'


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Realityshark said:


> No way. You would need to be robbing your passengers at gunpoint to make 20K per month with Uber. If this were in fact true, I would never allow this to go public. One can only imagine the lack of sleep and dangerous conditions this particular driver imposed on his unsuspecting passengers. Dear God.... Doesn't Uber care about anything but $$$$.


Notice the carefully crafted verbiage though. * One of our 'partners.' * It could easily UberSUV rates which run near $4. per mile.

For poor Rachel to make 20K in a month at her approximate rate of $1.14 per mile she would have to drive $20,000./$1.14 or about 17,500 miles in a month or nearly 600 paid miles per day, which could take as much as 1000-1200 miles per day total. Good luck with that.

An UberSUV however would only have to get about 200 paid miles per day or maybe as much as 400 a day, total miles. That's remote, but possible, particularly if the driver has connections both ways to an airport, a captive clientele at a hotel or hotels and 2 drivers running.

*Poor Rachel's math isn't quite the same comparison. A very small $.04 PER MILE reduction in Rachel's mileage rate would actually result in an 8.8% reduction in her net pay, even using Sean O'Goremans screwed up math.*

*[Rachel appeared to be reporting her total miles driven]*


----------



## Farman vegas (Aug 8, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> This just happened:
> 
> View attachment 1886
> View attachment 1887
> ...


----------



## driveLA (Aug 15, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> This just happened:
> 
> View attachment 1886
> View attachment 1887
> ...


Lol the propaganda even spews from the CEOs mouth

One would think he'd leave all the blatant bs to his underlings and at least pretend to be a respectable professional human being.

So tacky.


----------



## DriverJ (Sep 1, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> This just happened:
> 
> View attachment 1886
> View attachment 1887
> ...


That guy has lost it. $20,000?! There's no way he would actually expect anyone to believe that crap. I knew the $90,000/year ads were complete BS. I just didn't realize how deep that BS actually was.

We're working for, I mean WITH, a madman.


----------



## chigirlryder (Oct 22, 2014)

I miss be doing something wrong. I drive about 12 hours a day like a frantic crack head chasing down surges and the busy areas. According to ubers graph when i began, the said to drive during rush hours to make more. The graph highlited the am and pm rush hour, and almost all of saturday, plus a part of Sunday. 
I just got an email saying i would make more if i drove more during the busy hours. Same style graph, but only 1 morning rush hour highlighted, and one evening. Saturday, according to their chart, is only busy now during bar time, for only an hour.

With that, I've been at all the rush hour times, and noticed that im not half as busy as i was just 2 weeks ago, and the busy time ends around 9am where i use to be busy through 10 am. At night i get almost nothing. 

I noticed they recently posted adds on craigslist over and over and over. So, if i was supposed to get more rides, don't they realize that's impossible when they are hiring thousands of new drivers.

I dropped off at the airport the other day, and there was a line up of cars all down the shoulder of the highway, just hungry to be the closed driver to the prey. Ive never seen this before. 
Am i the only one getting less rides in the last week or tw


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

chigirlryder said:


> I miss be doing something wrong.


You are not doing anything wrong. You are following the guidance on "busy hairs" provided by Uber_CHI.


chigirlryder said:


> Am i the only one getting less rides in the last week or tw


No, your experience is typical.


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> You Can Not be serious about not including insurance cost for a car used for full time Uber driving to the tune of 70hrs/week!
> Show your own earnings numbers like @Rachel Galindo so it can shine a light on Part-time drivers skimming the cream while discounting Full-time Drivers' Real Grievances!


Now that I could see Rachel's documents (OneDrive is blocked at work) and upload my own (Google Drive also blocked), here is what I have:

I chose this particular week because it is the second to last one in which I have reliable OBD-II data to display, and because it includes a disastrous Thursday night, so it even things out. I went on for the Katy Perry concert, dropped someone off at the beach, fiddled with my phone mount for 10-15 minutes, then got stock in a parking lot traffic jam for like 80 minutes and just went home in frustration. Also, because the last week I have data for was an unusual circumstance in that the Browns, Indians, and the Arena Bowl were all going on at once, leading to massive surges that well out of the ordinary.

Anyway:

Fares: $237.88
Uber cut: $47.56
iPhone fee: $20.00 (I didn't drive the previous week)
Gross pay: $170.33

Now onto the expenses:

Miles driven: 147
Time online/active: 7 hours 57 minutes
Fuel (per Dash for Android): $15.22
Depreciation: $18.93
Tire, brake, and oil costs attributed to driving: $6.20
Total expenses: $40.35

Net income: $129.98
Hourly income: $16.35

How I reached my depreciation number was by taking the 5 year depreciation figure for my car from Edmunds, divided by their 75,000 mile estimate, and then multiplied that by 147. The depreciation table is heavily weighted for the first year, but as I'm a part time driver on pace for less than the 20,000 annual miles I assumed I put on the car when I bought it (ironically before I knew Uber was a thing), and plan on keeping the car for at least 5 years, I just used the average amount.

Tires were an unnecessary purchase (Hankook Ventus RS-3s) that I bought because I like good tires, cost $591, and will probably be good for 25,000 miles. Oil change cost me $61 to do myself a couple of weeks ago and is done every 5,000 miles. Brakes I just assumed $250ish every 45,000 miles.

Raw data can be found here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3f-0kutRFt6TmhfcEpMMEpOcjA&authuser=0


----------



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Sean O'Gorman said:


> Fares: $237.88
> Uber cut: $47.56


 Sean this data is From Aug 14th - 17th. I don't know the timeline of Uber Cleveland Rate Cuts, if any. But for any Data after Sept, you'd have to also deduct the $1SRF/Ride.
So the $47.56 is 20% commission of the $237.88 in Fares total. And you'd also subtract $11 in SRF for the 11 rides. Also please try to calculate your average ride distance and time.



Sean O'Gorman said:


> I already lost my assumptions because I didn't save the spreadsheet, but it assumed the average trip was 6 miles and 14 minutes long (I think), that you worked 8 hours a day/5 days a week/52 weeks a year, and that under the old pricing, you did 11 trips a day.


Perhaps you can get a more concise handle on these assumptions too.

Thanx for digging in your numbers.


----------



## Bee (Oct 4, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Your so full of crap I discount your Uber pimping entirely. Were it not for surge fares Ubering is a money looooser. So, surge fares are the only way this gig can be justified, i.e. REALISTIC fares.
> 
> If they want ME to drive people for nothing TO INCREASE THEIR FAN BASE they can kiss my ASS.


Were it not for guaranteed rates, it would not be worth it to me. My goal is to sign up for the guaranteed rate program and then sit on my duff at home.


----------



## bulabula1 (Oct 9, 2014)

for someone to earn $20k in a month you would have to work 14 hours a day f0r 30 days and earn $47.62 per hour.... ummm ok sure


----------



## bulabula1 (Oct 9, 2014)

that would be in Detroit by the way.... I would also have to avg. about 40 miles worth of rides per hour. about 16,800 miles in the month!


----------



## Sean O'Gorman (Apr 17, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> Sean this data is From Aug 14th - 17th. I don't know the timeline of Uber Cleveland Rate Cuts, if any. But for any Data after Sept, you'd have to also deduct the $1SRF/Ride.
> So the $47.56 is 20% commission of the $237.88 in Fares total. And you'd also subtract $11 in SRF for the 11 rides. Also please try to calculate your average ride distance and time.
> 
> Perhaps you can get a more concise handle on these assumptions too.
> ...


No rate cuts in Cleveland. The $237.88 doesn't include $11 in safe rides fees.

I'll be honest, the average trip length and mileage I quoted yesterday was just pulled out of my ass. That being said, I just now calculated the average time and length of my 11 trips from that invoice and it was 5.6 miles, and 13 minutes 40 seconds per ride. The average over the lifetime of my 110 trips is 6.21 miles/13 minutes 42 seconds.

Holy shit, that's pretty close to the 6 miles/14 minutes number I made up.

It's worth noting too that of these 110 trips, only 4 of them were $5 rides, and one of those 4 shows nothing for mileage and time. I think that was the one where I forgot to start the meter until the end of the trip. I just started and stopped it quickly because I knew it was short enough to be a $5-6 trip anyawy.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

In my area Uber/Lyft for 1 way (empty returns to/from the airport for example) pays about $.70 a mile on X.
*
Do the freakin' MATH.* Uber is *paying drivers for their vehicle and their time at the rate of a GRAND $.14 PER MILE. ($.56 IRS mileage deduction from the $.70)*

Let's see....hmmm....if I drive 100,000 miles in a year that's, why, isn't that like, $14,000! Wow. I'm gunna get me sum O dat dere stuff! Let' see. An average mph of 30 it will only take me, let's see, hmmm....a year and 1/3 worth of behind the wheel. But if I DOUBLE that, say to 60mph and drive non stop, I can make my $14 grand in less than 3/4 of a year. Wow!

Uber is going to take care of their own business *by putting themselves OUT of business.*


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

chi1cabby shouldn't have to press for driver remedies much longer as there really shouldn't be any Uber/Lyft drivers with the new rates rolling out.


----------



## Bee (Oct 4, 2014)

KC went from 1.80 a mile and .50 a minute to 1.20 a mile and .25 a minute. Our market is exclusively bar shuttles, to and from Westport, Power and Light. I live in a suburb close to both. My Uber strategy was to stay at home with the phone on and do shuttles to the entertainment districts from about 7pm to 11pm. Rides to PnL used to be right around $20 and Westport about $10-12. Because the cost is usually split among several friends, I thought this was economical. (I'm not interested in doing the rides home for many reasons). Once I get to Westport or PnL I have to transfer locations to get another passenger. Nobody leaves the bar district at 9pm, so you have to be near where they live.

Last night I took a solo passenger from an apartment near my home to PnL. Gross fare 14.61. Here is how that breaks down:
I drove 1/2 hour round trip for 15.6 miles.
$14.61 Gross
$1.00 safe ride
$2.92 pimp charge
$10.69 to me
$3.90 depreciation and maintenance (2012 Accord purchased new, 25,000+2000 tax +3,000 maintenance -5,000 residual / 100,000 miles = .25
$2.34 fuel ($3 a gallon, 20 mpg. 100% stop and go traffic)
$4.45 net for 30 minutes
= $8.90 per hour

$10.69 to me
$8.73 IRS standard mileage
$1.96 Taxable income on this one trip. 
I could have waited for hours for passengers going home. However, I don't want to deal with my own fatigue, drunks in my car, drunks on the road, drunk pedestrians, intense police patrol and everything else that makes that makes the wee hours of the morning not worth the risk, IMO.

The same activity used to pay $5 an hour more. I also used to have more passengers before the glut of drivers hit the road so I was making about 150 a weekend or the $20 an hour they promise now. You can debate my costs, but that's just master baiting. This gig is not nearly as profitable as it was and is a significant liability risk for the money. I won't be Ubering very much longer.

Go Royals.


----------

