# Another Flex Lawsuit



## Shangsta (Aug 15, 2016)

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-delivery-drivers-sue-company-over-job-status/


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## jester121 (Sep 6, 2016)

Sigh. Lawyers ruin everything.


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## SlikkRikk (Sep 25, 2016)

"Three drivers who have made deliveries on contract for Amazon are suing the company, saying they should be considered employees, not contractors."

... dude, LOL, what?! YOU signed up to be a CONTRACTOR! YOU CHOSE THAT! WTF!


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## UberPasco (Oct 18, 2015)

Professional victims.


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## CatchyMusicLover (Sep 18, 2015)

I love how people claim they should be paid overtime.

How about choosing not to work more than 40 hours?


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## Write of way (Jul 2, 2016)

Unfortunately we need this type of litigation. Corporations will use and abuse otherwise. A true Contractor using their own car should be paid 25 an hour minimum. 18 is like minimum wage with no benefits. But amazon can get away with it and we accept it. The only way corporations will listen is through lawyers.

I'm just saying, these lawsuits are beneficial for us and at the very least shouldn't be demeaned.


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## Philt (Jun 21, 2016)

These lawsuits are exactly the reason that we're capped at 40 hrs per week. Gotta ruin it for everyone else.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

What does 40 hours a week have to do with anything?


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## flexology (Jan 28, 2016)

observer said:


> What does 40 hours a week have to do with anything?


From the article:


> In the Amazon lawsuit, the drivers allege the tech giant has violated federal labor laws by failing to ensure they earn the minimum wage after paying for gas and maintenance, and by not paying overtime. The lawsuit seeks class-action status.


So reading this it seems to me at least a few of the drivers would like overtime pay for working more than 40 hours a week. Such a rule wouldn't affect me personally since I've never gotten 40 hours a week anyway no matter how hard I tried.


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## CatchyMusicLover (Sep 18, 2015)

Right, but those who DO manage are doing it by choice, why should they be payed more?


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## UberPasco (Oct 18, 2015)

Write of way said:


> Unfortunately we need this type of litigation. Corporations will use and abuse otherwise. A true Contractor using their own car should be paid 25 an hour minimum. 18 is like minimum wage with no benefits. But amazon can get away with it and we accept it. The only way corporations will listen is through lawyers.
> 
> I'm just saying, these lawsuits are beneficial for us and at the very least shouldn't be demeaned.


I disagree. They SHOULD be demeaned because they diminish actual, valid, labor issues. Nobody is forcing anyone to work 4 hrs let alone over 40. A true contractor determines whether they will take a job or not, and at what price. If the job doesn't meet that criteria, move along to the next.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

flexology said:


> From the article:
> 
> So reading this it seems to me at least a few of the drivers would like overtime pay for working more than 40 hours a week. Such a rule wouldn't affect me personally since I've never gotten 40 hours a week anyway no matter how hard I tried.


Only employees get paid overtime after 40 hours, since drivers are "independent contractors" they can work as many hours as they want.

So, if drivers are "independent contractors" why doesn't Amazon allow them to work as many hours as drivers like?


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## Shangsta (Aug 15, 2016)

observer said:


> Only employees get paid overtime after 40 hours, since drivers are "independent contractors" they can work as many hours as they want.
> 
> So, if drivers are "independent contractors" why doesn't Amazon allow them to work as many hours as drivers like?


I would love more details of the lawsuit, it could be a challenge of drivers who do not finish their four hour block in time and continuing working. Not just the 40 hours.

I think Amazon limits drivers to 40 because of litigation like this. Uber drivers who drive 60 hours a week are behind the effort to unionize. I wonder if Amazon is trying to learn from that.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Shangsta said:


> I would love more details of the lawsuit, it could be a challenge of drivers who do not finish their four hour block in time and continuing working. Not just the 40 hours.
> 
> I think Amazon limits drivers to 40 because of litigation like this. Uber drivers who drive 60 hours a week are behind the effort to unionize. I wonder if Amazon is trying to learn from that.


If over 4 and under 8 it would be straight time. Overtime only kicks in after 8 hours.

That is exactly my point, why limit the hours if Amazon is so sure they classified drivers correctly?


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

observer said:


> If over 4 and under 8 it would be straight time. Overtime only kicks in after 8 hours.
> 
> That is exactly my point, why limit the hours if Amazon is so sure they classified drivers correctly?


I forgot this was in Washington state, OT laws may be different, but should be pretty close to CA law.


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## flexology (Jan 28, 2016)

CatchyMusicLover said:


> Right, but those who DO manage are doing it by choice, why should they be payed more?


Sure, in the same way that a regular employee who works more than 40 hours a week (instead of, say, quitting by choice or calling in sick) gets overtime by law. I guess I don't really have an answer. The drivers also say something about Amazon not ensuring a minimum wage, which is yet another one of those regulatory issues specific to different locations.


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## flexology (Jan 28, 2016)

From the article:


> But it argues that instead of independent contractors, they are "actually employees" because they are highly supervised and were trained by the company on how to deal with customers.
> 
> Drivers must follow "Amazon's instructions regarding where to make deliveries, in what order, and which route to take," the complaint states.


Actually, the new Terms specifically state that Amazon does *not* do any of those things. The only thing Amazon supervises and gives instructions about is *when* to make deliveries. So it seems to me if Amazon didn't punish drivers for late deliveries, they might even be totally in the clear in that regard, and the lawsuit wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I can understand a customer not tipping because they think the delivery is late, and I can even understand Amazon de-prioritizing consistently-late drivers when dispensing the Friday afternoon scheduled blocks. But deactivation for consistent lateness (including late arrival for blocks) should not happen to an independent contractor who makes his or her own decisions about application of tradecraft.

Consistently-late drivers, instead of being deactivated, should still be allowed log into the app to pick up the available blocks - for no reason other than to rebuild and rehabilitate their delivery history relative to the other independent contractors.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Definition of independent contractor by IRS.



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*Independent Contractor Defined*
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People such as doctors, dentists, veterinarians, lawyers, accountants, contractors, subcontractors, public stenographers, or auctioneers who are in an independent trade, business, or profession in which they offer their services to the general public are generally independent contractors. However, whether these people are independent contractors or employees depends on the facts in each case. The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done. The earnings of a person who is working as an independent contractor are subject to Self-Employment Tax.

If you are an independent contractor, you are self-employed. To find out what your tax obligations are, visit the Self-Employed Tax Center.

You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed.

If an employer-employee relationship exists (regardless of what the relationship is called), you are not an independent contractor and your earnings are generally not subject toSelf-Employment Tax.

However, your earnings as an employee may be subject to FICA (Social Security tax and Medicare) and income tax withholding.

For more information on determining whether you are an independent contractor or an employee, refer to the section on Independent Contractors or Employees.


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## SpiritualGangster (Oct 6, 2016)

They might seem like whiners and babies to those who are getting their 40 hrs and know exactly what they signed up for, but others can see the bigger picture. This contractor thing that Uber and Amazon are doing, it's sort of like an experiment, to see how far can they push this "contractor" thing without having to shoulder the costs of having an actual employee. If they are successful and left unchallenged, you damn well best believe EVERY other company in this country will follow suit, with a quickness. All the rights employees have fought for the past 100 odd years or so will have been for naught. Be careful what you wish for.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

I predict that they will have trouble with this.

I am a Real Estate Broker, associated with a brokerage firm. That industry has been under attack by the state and fed gov'ts for the independent contractor status that agents and brokers have enjoyed through the years. My brokerage is VERY careful about NOT telling associates HOW to do their job. They concentrate on results, and allow the associations (Nat'l Assn of Realtors, California Association of Realtors, and the local boards) to enforce ethics *snicker* and other rules and regulations.

The brokerage that I am associated with can not tell me (for example) "when you meet a client for the first time you must say this". Or, "you re scheduled for floor time from 3 - 6 and if you're late we will .... etc." Or, office hours are 8 - 6 and you must be at your desk by 9am, and leave no earlier than 4pm unless you have an appointment, and you must check out with your manager if you do." That's too much control for an IC. I only go into the brokerage if I have an appt with a client, have floor time, or I'm picking up a paycheck. I'll go for weeks without going in. They are careful that I truly am self employed. It is MY time, and MY business how and when I do things. If it's not - then I am an employee. BTW: if you think Uber Drivers work long hours for low pay -- become a real estate agent. We do a hell of a lot more than provide mints and water ...

Now, if my production (the end result) is not up to snuff -- they will pack my desk up in an empty paper box and help me load it in my UberCar. It is an 'at will relationship which can be terminated by either party without cause or notice.' The two big words there are "without cause". They don't need a reason to fire me. I don't need a reason to quit. But, if I miss too many scheduled 'floor times' they will just stop scheduling me for them. I don't HAVE to do floor - and they don't HAVE to give them to me.

Uber is walking a very fine line with the IC status. I'm not a lawyer, but, I think they are crossing the line with the amount of control they have over the HOW we arrive at the final product.

~ UberBastid ~


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## uberbomber (Jan 29, 2016)

Write of way said:


> Unfortunately we need this type of litigation. Corporations will use and abuse otherwise. A true Contractor using their own car should be paid 25 an hour minimum. 18 is like minimum wage with no benefits. But amazon can get away with it and we accept it. The only way corporations will listen is through lawyers.
> 
> I'm just saying, these lawsuits are beneficial for us and at the very least shouldn't be demeaned.





SpiritualGangster said:


> They might seem like whiners and babies to those who are getting their 40 hrs and know exactly what they signed up for, but others can see the bigger picture. This contractor thing that Uber and Amazon are doing, it's sort of like an experiment, to see how far can they push this "contractor" thing without having to shoulder the costs of having an actual employee. If they are successful and left unchallenged, you damn well best believe EVERY other company in this country will follow suit, with a quickness. All the rights employees have fought for the past 100 odd years or so will have been for naught. Be careful what you wish for.


Thanks for this. Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Bygosh (Oct 9, 2016)

UberPasco said:


> A true contractor determines whether they will take a job or not, and at what price. If the job doesn't meet that criteria, move along to the next.


If this is the case logistics drivers should be allowed to reject a route once they see it without penalty. Which would be fantastic. Right now you will get deactivated in a hurry if you say no don't want that cart would rather not work.


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## UberPasco (Oct 18, 2015)

Bygosh said:


> If this is the case logistics drivers should be allowed to reject a route once they see it without penalty. Which would be fantastic. Right now you will get deactivated in a hurry if you say no don't want that cart would rather not work.


I was speaking about agreeing to do Flex. As an IC you have the right to accept the terms or not. Once you accept, refusing a route (or not showing up on time) for whatever reason, breaks the process. If we don't like the process, we are free to find a client whose terms are more to our liking.


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## Bygosh (Oct 9, 2016)

UberPasco said:


> I was speaking about agreeing to do Flex. As an IC you have the right to accept the terms or not. Once you accept, refusing a route (or not showing up on time) for whatever reason, breaks the process. If we don't like the process, we are free to find a client whose terms are more to our liking.


Thing is you don't know what the work is until you get into the warehouse and by that time it's too late to reject the block without penalty. As an IC you should be able to view your work before accepting it.

Yeah you're agreeing to work 4 hrs for $72 but the costs involved can vary greatly. What other IC trade is there where you accept an hourly wage and then you have to complete x amount of work in that time? I'd love it if I could do that to a plumber, electrician etc.


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## flexology (Jan 28, 2016)

The fundamental issue is the opacity of the Amazon Flex process. There might be some strict criteria for activation, deactivation, block assignments, and block scheduling hard-coded into a computer system somewhere. But there doesn't seem to be any real way of knowing what it is (that I am aware of), and so we can't really know about the level of supervision and punishment Amazon has over the process. Maybe that can be part of the discovery process of this lawsuit? If so, that would be a huge help.

Anyway, it looks like the E.U. is way ahead of the U.S. on this one:

http://fusion.net/story/321178/european-union-right-to-algorithmic-explanation/

I can understand algos being considered a "trade secret" when it comes to goods. But people aren't goods, and Amazon isn't in the business of human trafficking. Drivers have a right to algorithmic explanation, because it affects their lives robustly, in some cases to a great extent. Speaking for myself only, I just want to be the best driver that I am capable of being, because that's how I roll, but by hiding the amount of control it has over the process, Amazon doesn't make it easy.


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## UberPasco (Oct 18, 2015)

Bygosh said:


> Yeah you're agreeing to work 4 hrs for $72 but the costs involved can vary greatly. What other IC trade is there where you accept an hourly wage and then you have to complete x amount of work in that time? I'd love it if I could do that to a plumber, electrician etc.


Which we understand going in. Either accept the terms or not, the decision is ours.


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## CatchyMusicLover (Sep 18, 2015)

Yeah, it's a matter of 'this is the job, by scheduling a block you accept these terms. If you don't....our relationship is over'.
It's like you say to the teen across the street, "I'll give you $5 to mow the front lawn, and I need it done by 4PM"...if he does a terrible job, or does it at 5PM, you have a right to not give that job next time.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Yeah you're agreeing to work 4 hrs for $72 but the costs involved can vary greatly. What other IC trade is there where you accept an hourly wage and then you have to complete x amount of work in that time? I'd love it if I could do that to a plumber, electrician etc.[/QUOTE]



UberPasco said:


> Which we understand going in. Either accept the terms or not, the decision is ours.





CatchyMusicLover said:


> Yeah, it's a matter of 'this is the job, by scheduling a block you accept these terms. If you don't....our relationship is over'.
> It's like you say to the teen across the street, "I'll give you $5 to mow the front lawn, and I need it done by 4PM"...if he does a terrible job, or does it at 5PM, you have a right to not give that job next time.


The terms can be dictated by Amazon, but how a driver is classified can't, that is up to a government agency to decide. That is what this lawsuit and many others are about.


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## sofla11 (Aug 21, 2014)

I don't believe that the 40 hours a week has anything to do with protecting them from lawsuits. They do remove those limits in high demand times, as they did this week before the hurricane in Miami. If it were a legal issue, they would be careful not to change it under any circumstances.

My personal theory is that they would prefer to have a greater number of active working drivers and limiting hours gives more drivers a chance to get blocks. There are a couple benefits to that: 1. Not keeping your eggs in one basket (less impact when drivers quit or take time off); 2. They have more people ready and able to work during high demand periods (thus not having to turn away business or delay delivery for lack of delivery resources as sometimes happens with Prime Now).


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## flexology (Jan 28, 2016)

Actually, I misspoke, Amazon doesn't supervise the blocks as deadlines exactly, but rather they are measured in terms of duration (like 2 hours), as far as I can tell. So it's more like someone saying "do as much work as you can in 2 hours" but they try to play it safe by generating enough to do that lasts a little less than 2 hours.

So, to me, the deliverable outcome is the driver's time, and if Amazon tries to schedule the details of that time and how it is spent, then the driver is no longer an independent contractor because they're no longer in control of "how" the job of spending the duration of time is accomplished. So, relating back to what I said earlier, lateness should be a non-issue for a driver, and the burden of correct scheduling should fall on Amazon and its incomprehensibly vast computing power and legions of programmers.


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## Bygosh (Oct 9, 2016)

CatchyMusicLover said:


> Yeah, it's a matter of 'this is the job, by scheduling a block you accept these terms. If you don't....our relationship is over'.
> It's like you say to the teen across the street, "I'll give you $5 to mow the front lawn, and I need it done by 4PM"...if he does a terrible job, or does it at 5PM, you have a right to not give that job next time.


Except it's not that simple. The teen gets to see the work that is expected to be completed ahead of time. Logistics is more like I'll give you $5 to mow my lawn but you have no idea how small or big the lawn is, how much gas you will need, how many steps you'll take etc. Oh and by the way when you get to see the lawn and it's too big for what you think you should get paid. Too freaking bad take it or never work again.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think the difference is an IC should be completing a "job" whereas if you hire someone to work x amount of hours for x amount of money sounds like every W2 job I've ever had.

I actually prefer the IC status and enjoy flex. However I think that as an IC we should have the right to reject routes without penalty. Most routes wouldn't get rejected anyways but occasionally they would which would have the effect of keeping the routes below some threshold.


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## CatchyMusicLover (Sep 18, 2015)

I would agree, and it'd especially be nice if we could at least get a some choice (like, maybe divide the shipping areas into four quadrants or something) or even stuff like blocks with a bunch of apartments paying slightly more to incentivize those , or whatever (the other day they started listing on the block sheets the supposed length of time the route would take, though I dunno if it factors in multiple deliveries to apartment complexes)


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## Shangsta (Aug 15, 2016)

flexology said:


> Actually, I misspoke, Amazon doesn't supervise the blocks as deadlines exactly, but rather they are measured in terms of duration (like 2 hours), as far as I can tell. So it's more like someone saying "do as much work as you can in 2 hours" but they try to play it safe by generating enough to do that lasts a little less than 2 hours.
> 
> So, to me, the deliverable outcome is the driver's time, and if Amazon tries to schedule the details of that time and how it is spent, then the driver is no longer an independent contractor because they're no longer in control of "how" the job of spending the duration of time is accomplished. So, relating back to what I said earlier, lateness should be a non-issue for a driver, and the burden of correct scheduling should fall on Amazon and its incomprehensibly vast computing power and legions of programmers.


Except in the new contract, if you do not finish in two hours you are docked for it. Very employee like treatment.


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## Shangsta (Aug 15, 2016)

sofla11 said:


> I don't believe that the 40 hours a week has anything to do with protecting them from lawsuits.


Maybe not but again it is incredibly easy (Miami withstanding) to get a block at 10pm. Why do they not just assign those blocks to people rather than wait until the night before to release them (I am sure some are forfeitted but I can still pickup a block today and its 7AM local time.

I feel like they schedule us very little on purpose. I have never gotten more than 2 or 3 shifts on the Friday release.

Engaging drivers is one thing but considering Amazons reputation with employees (NY Times article a year ago about people crying on their desk) I think its clear they do what they can to avoid litigation.

Think about it lets say the average driver only drives 8 to 12 hours a week, it validates their right to classify us as IC rather than employees


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## flexology (Jan 28, 2016)

Shangsta said:


> Except in the new contract, if you do not finish in two hours you are docked for it. Very employee like treatment.


I don't disagree, though what I saw when I read the Terms was something about drivers having to "attempt every delivery" which could mean almost anything.

The funny thing is that if they let drivers mark as Undeliverable (using the available reason of something like "Will not arrive on time" or whatever it is) that would technically avoid a "late" delivery and, as far as Amazon is concerned, ought to satisfy the "attempt every delivery" requirement.

Acknowledging the package, calculating the likelihood of delivering on time (ie application of tradecraft), and either delivering to an address or marking as undeliverable in the app is, to me, a reasonable "attempt" - one that fell short but an attempt nonetheless.


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## KMANDERSON (Jul 19, 2015)

Shangsta said:


> http://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-delivery-drivers-sue-company-over-job-status/


Is that not the same attorney that let uber off the hook?Maybe amazon will settle for 100 million and she will drop this case to.


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## KMANDERSON (Jul 19, 2015)

observer said:


> Only employees get paid overtime after 40 hours, since drivers are "independent contractors" they can work as many hours as they want.
> 
> So, if drivers are "independent contractors" why doesn't Amazon allow them to work as many hours as drivers like?


Unsure of the reason,but amazon will not let you pick up more block after 40hr.


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## flexology (Jan 28, 2016)

KMANDERSON said:


> Is that not the same attorney that let uber off the hook?Maybe amazon will settle for 100 million and she will drop the case to.


Yeah lol and with a little luck all the Flex drivers who opted out of arbitration will get a $20 check in the mail long after they've forgotten they ever had this gig -- and immediately spend it on stuff from Amazon.com.

I say let it all propagate to the state legislature and state government level (which is the only real recourse for people who don't opt out of arbitration). Soon enough, every election year will involve a brutal and public crackdown on megacorps like Amazon. In some states it will be like a ritual, a part of the process of getting elected to public office. It will be the new way for politicians to rally people together.


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## Sasha (Nov 15, 2015)

class action means lawyers win couple of changes n life goes on its all lawyers focused Amazon can be easily sued in a small claim court up to $15,000 ofcourse state and counties vary but deactivation to being late, bringing back packages because it's over 4 hours is a easy payday for anyone in small claims court....fast and cheap and you go after Amazon and name the so called blue vests in your law suit and drag them in there....uber, Amazon will do any thing as they can to push the envelopes till some done raises a hand or disputes....that's corporate mentality every where that's why Jeff is the 2nd richest side now after Bill gate even above Warren b.


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## Sasha (Nov 15, 2015)

s a so called independent contractor CEO of your own company your job is to increase revenue and profit...you oweit to your shareholders which in our case is out family n people we take care of...are you the ceo that is making money or bleeding money???this is just a side job notbeing your own boss no room to grow or any of that....it's a one sided contract my way or the highway....all employee stuff independent contractor will have a day so n be able tonegotiate or have a voice


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

flexology said:


> Yeah lol and with a little luck all the Flex drivers who opted out of arbitration will get a $20 check in the mail long after they've forgotten they ever had this gig -- and immediately spend it on stuff from Amazon.com.
> 
> I say let it all propagate to the state legislature and state government level (which is the only real recourse for people who don't opt out of arbitration). Soon enough, every election year will involve a brutal and public crackdown on megacorps like Amazon. In some states it will be like a ritual, a part of the process of getting elected to public office. It will be the new way for politicians to rally people together.


To me it's not about the "20 bux". It's about changing the Megacorps behavior in the future. The reason our generation had a decent living is because previous generations fought for better working conditions and pay.

I feel we owe it to our kids, and our neighbors kids and our future generations to fight for them.


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## flexology (Jan 28, 2016)

Sasha said:


> s a so called independent contractor CEO of your own company your job is to increase revenue and profit...you oweit to your shareholders which in our case is out family n people we take care of...are you the ceo that is making money or bleeding money???this is just a side job notbeing your own boss no room to grow or any of that....it's a one sided contract my way or the highway....all employee stuff independent contractor will have a day so n be able tonegotiate or have a voice


Do you have your own LLC? I wonder if doing so changes the way you'd legally interact with Amazon, that is to say if your LLC were the IC (paid by Amazon) and you just were the only employee of your LLC.

I suspect it would make a huge difference.


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## flexology (Jan 28, 2016)

observer said:


> To me it's not about the "20 bux". It's about changing the Megacorps behavior in the future. The reason our generation had a decent living is because previous generations fought for better working conditions and pay.
> 
> I feel we owe it to our kids, and our neighbors kids and our future generations to fight for them.


I believe that only having continual leverage on megacorps from the political side will change their behavior.

In contrast, charging them what amounts to a one-time fee - a rounding error for these megacorps - and changing a couple of rules will not have as much of an effect. It reinforces the idea of "ask forgiveness instead of permission" which I think is incredibly toxic and regressive.


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## KMANDERSON (Jul 19, 2015)

observer said:


> To me it's not about the "20 bux". It's about changing the Megacorps behavior in the future. The reason our generation had a decent living is because previous generations fought for better working conditions and pay.
> 
> I feel we owe it to our kids, and our neighbors kids and





flexology said:


> Yeah lol and with a little luck all the Flex drivers who opted out of arbitration will get a $20 check in the mail long after they've forgotten they ever had this gig -- and immediately spend it on stuff from Amazon.com.
> 
> I say let it all propagate to the state legislature and state government level (which is the only real recourse for people who don't opt out of arbitration). Soon enough, every election year will involve a brutal and public crackdown on megacorps like Amazon. In some states it will be like a ritual, a part of the process of getting elected to public office. It will be the new way for politicians to rally people together.


Hillary Clinton want to get ride of this so called gig economy.That enough to for me to vote for her.Hillary 2016


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## Sasha (Nov 15, 2015)

flexology said:


> Do you have your own LLC? I wonder if doing so changes the way you'd legally interact with Amazon, that is to say if your LLC were the IC (paid by Amazon) and you just were the only employee of your LLC.
> 
> I suspect it would make a huge difference.


I do have coroeatipn set up but as an individual you can still challenge that relationship and the treatment of it....years back I learned you own nothing but control every thing.


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## SpiritualGangster (Oct 6, 2016)

Sasha said:


> I do have coroeatipn set up but as an individual you can still challenge that relationship and the treatment of it....years back I learned you own nothing but control every thing.


This is interesting. If one were to go this route, I'm having trouble seeing how you could make the argument that you have an employee/employer relationship with Amazon, when you're an employee of your LLC who is contracting labor out to Flex


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

flexology said:


> Do you have your own LLC? I wonder if doing so changes the way you'd legally interact with Amazon, that is to say if your LLC were the IC (paid by Amazon) and you just were the only employee of your LLC.
> 
> I suspect it would make a huge difference.





Sasha said:


> I do have coroeatipn set up but as an individual you can still challenge that relationship and the treatment of it....years back I learned you own nothing but control every thing.





SpiritualGangster said:


> This is interesting. If one were to go this route, I'm having trouble seeing how you could make the argument that you have an employee/employer relationship with Amazon, when you're an employee of your LLC who is contracting labor out to Flex


As an FYI, having an LLC or incorporating does not protect your assets.


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## Fenwitch (Sep 4, 2016)

SlikkRikk said:


> "Three drivers who have made deliveries on contract for Amazon are suing the company, saying they should be considered employees, not contractors."
> 
> ... dude, LOL, what?! YOU signed up to be a CONTRACTOR! YOU CHOSE THAT! WTF!


I once signed up to be a driver with a company that required i blow my boss every Tuesday and Thursday. Sure it wasn't legal, but I signed it. j/k

Companies can ask you to sign any contract they like, but you can't actually sign away your rights under state and federal law.


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