# How much do you pay?



## Ludy (Nov 9, 2021)

I'm just curious how much some of you pay in taxes each year? Do you take standard mileage deduction or the actual expense method? I understand there are a lot of variables at play, but I see people post often they owe $0 in taxes. I don't understand how that is possible.

I do this part time (I have a 40 hour a week full time job) and Hurdlr shows I had $28,000 gross with $4770 in contract labor (uber service fees) and $10,000 in mileage deduction.

Net of $13,000 or so of which I owe $2700 in taxes.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Ludy said:


> I'm just curious how much some of you pay in taxes each year? Do you take standard mileage deduction or the actual expense method? I understand there are a lot of variables at play, but I see people post often they owe $0 in taxes. I don't understand how that is possible.
> 
> I do this part time (I have a 40 hour a week full time job) and Hurdlr shows I had $28,000 gross with $4770 in contract labor (uber service fees) and $10,000 in mileage deduction.
> 
> Net of $13,000 or so of which I owe $2700 in taxes.


The people that post they dont owe any money for taxes either didnt make any or drove alot of deadhead miles. They may just not be filing taxes too LOL


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## Uberisfuninlv (Mar 22, 2017)

I am getting back about $9,000 this year, due to 3 kids and the wife as deductions


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Uberisfuninlv said:


> I am getting back about $9,000 this year, due to 3 kids and the wife as deductions


Do you have an extra kid you want to let me borrow?😅



Ludy said:


> I'm just curious how much some of you pay in taxes each year? Do you take standard mileage deduction or the actual expense method? I understand there are a lot of variables at play, but I see people post often they owe $0 in taxes. I don't understand how that is possible.
> 
> I do this part time (I have a 40 hour a week full time job) and Hurdlr shows I had $28,000 gross with $4770 in contract labor (uber service fees) and $10,000 in mileage deduction.
> 
> Net of $13,000 or so of which I owe $2700 in taxes.


I usually owe between $500 and 1500. I usually do the standard deduction but this year I think I'm going to do the actual expenses. Simply because I paid off the truck super early so I was double even tripling up on car payments for the first 9 months of the year and then with gas prices so high. I've kind of added things up both ways and it appears actual expenses will be better but I need to sit down with a fine tooth comb and double check


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

My tax last year was $9,497 federal and $2,682 state (multiple sources of income for both me and my wife).

On the rideshare earnings only, your tax will be roughly the sum of:

Net profit times your tax bracket (between 10% and 37% depending on how much you earn

PLUS

Net profit times 15.3% (self employment tax - social security and medicare).

This does not factor in any other aspects of your tax situation which are often complicated.

Use turbotax - it's easy.

I pay quarterly payments to avoid penalties because apparently the IRS thinks I'm rich - trust me, I'm not. But I set aside 25.3% of my rideshare earnings and that usually puts me pretty close. 

I keep a running estimate of tax liability throughout the year and pay the quarterly payments so there are usually no big surprises for me. But changes in the tax law year to year do always make it a little bit different each year than I estimated.

As smart as I've been about it, I did realize this year that I have NOT been setting aside 3.06% of my net profit for PA State Tax... DOH!


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Uberisfuninlv said:


> I am getting back about $9,000 this year, due to 3 kids and the wife as deductions


Similar. Wife and two kids equals a refund between $3k and $7k. And I've *never* remitted any quarterly estimate in six full years of this work.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> The people that post they dont owe any money for taxes either didnt make any or drove alot of deadhead miles.


Just for 2021, my mileage deduction is 48% of my gross revenue (15021÷31052). That's based on actual total 24,477 miles. Only $16k profit on paper! Thank you IRS!


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> Just for 2021, my mileage deduction is 48% of my gross revenue (15021÷31052). That's based on actual total 24,477 miles. Only $16k profit on paper! Thank you IRS!


Mine was about 1/3 in 9 months I drove 60k


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## OCBob (Jan 20, 2015)

I keep track of all miles, on the app with rides and heading back home or to my office once it turns off a mile from the destination or sooner on my own. Those add up and not on the 1099 (or separate) you get from Lyft or Uber.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Ludy said:


> I'm just curious how much some of you pay in taxes each year? Do you take standard mileage deduction or the actual expense method? I understand there are a lot of variables at play, but I see people post often they owe $0 in taxes. I don't understand how that is possible.
> 
> I do this part time (I have a 40 hour a week full time job) and Hurdlr shows I had $28,000 gross with $4770 in contract labor (uber service fees) and $10,000 in mileage deduction.
> 
> Net of $13,000 or so of which I owe $2700 in taxes.


A growing number of pings fail to cover the standard mileage rate.

This one is $40 under the standard mileage rate.












It doesn' matter how effecient you are operating if pings come in less than the standard mileage rate you'll never owe anything.



Me personally?

I use actual expenses because that's what I have to do while operating a rental. 


Worked last night/this morning.

I had $110 in actual expenses to $285 in gross revenue.

$175 was "taxable" on the day.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

My tentative numbers for 2022, I'll owe $1,700 to the Feds and a refund of $400 from the state, based on combined $111K from our regular jobs and $10K from U/L, at present I'm showing a net loss of $1,800 for rideshare


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Truth be told: I also pad my miles in a way that will never be detected by audit.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Truth be told: I also pad my miles in a way that will never be detected by audit.


There is definitely a gray area here. For example, lets say I'm going somewhere an hour away. I turn my app on and DF there and back, maybe take one trip while I'm there. Boom. Miles are deductible because, hey, I was on business.

I used to try to take one trip any time I had to go somewhere. Not so much anymore. I find I have a better work/life balance if I work when I'm working, and not when I'm not.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> Truth be told: I also pad my miles in a way that will never be detected by audit.


How many times have you been audited?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> How many times have you been audited?


Zero.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Anyone doing Uber/Lyft full time should look into the earned income credit. Likely to qualify and get a lot of money back.


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## Uberisfuninlv (Mar 22, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> Truth be told: I also pad my miles in a way that will never be detected by audit.


The key is to have your app on all times when your car is running, even for errands. Then sometime in the day when you are planning on stop driving, do a short ride or delivery that takes you close to home. All those miles are now deductible



Seamus said:


> Anyone doing Uber/Lyft full time should look into the earned income credit. Likely to qualify and get a lot of money back.


That’s the advantage of having 3 kids and a low net income. I qualify for basically everything and the gov thinks I’m poor (well I kind of am) lol


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## Ludy (Nov 9, 2021)

I should mention that in my original post the taxes owed are what Hurdlr estimates for rideshare only. I have 3 kids and a wife as well claiming 0 on our full time jobs so ultimately will probably get close to an 8k refund. Of which I'll deduct the taxes I owe for Uber so be closer to $4500 refund. I make too much at full time job to qualify for earned income credit.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Uberisfuninlv said:


> The key is to have your app on all times when your car is running, even for errands. Then sometime in the day when you are planning on stop driving, do a short ride or delivery that takes you close to home. All those miles are now deductible


Nailed it. Any randomly selected date on which I have reported as little as one business mile (although it's honestly never under 50 business miles in a single day), there's *at least* one corresponding business revenue event on that same date. Foolproof.

Also, use another standalone mileage tracking app like Stride to capture those few miles that Uber always misses. For me and the way that I operate, it amounts to about 15% more miles.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> Zero.


And every person in federal prison on tax evasion charges said the exact same thing as you, they'll never find it. If you luck and out and never get audited, good on you, but if you are, and after they find your "perfect crime", come back and discuss it with us. Having been audited twice, and knowing multiple people who've been audited multiple times, the IRS is smarter than you think they are.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> And every person in federal prison on tax evasion charges said the exact same thing as you, they'll never find it. If you luck and out and never get audited, good on you, but if you are, and after they find your "perfect crime", come back and discuss it with us. Having been audited twice, and knowing multiple people who've been audited multiple times, the IRS is smarter than you think they are.


Funny. *they* have the burden of proof to demonstrate actual fraud. Being "bad" at rideshare in terms of driving "too many" miles to obtain a certain gross revenue is utterly irrelevant. They won't expend the extra human resources just to attempt to get an extra several hundred out of me anyway. It will cost them far more than that. They're not dumb. There are *far* too many bigger fish to be caught to waste their resources chasing rideshare drivers.



Heisenburger said:


> By my math, this looks like a strong start to getting a sweet ass refund from the sweeties at the IRS next spring. (Only mileage deduction is here so far, so this excludes all non-vehicle expenses like device and data.)
> 
> *How are you guys doing so far in this area?*
> 
> ...





Heisenburger said:


> This is misleading, at best. Example: when I start the day's work, I start the tracker. When I'm done with the day's work, I stop the tracker. That's a really long trip of 80-250 miles, but it's 100% business. There's absolutely *nothing* in the business mileage deductions code that requires each one of the 10 to 30 trips I take daily and repositioning miles in between to be logged as discrete entries. Nothing.





Heisenburger said:


> That's cool. However, I've read the tax code on it. It simply doesn't require per trip/customer entries. Daily mileage is specified as sufficient. The app I use meets that minimum. I have no qualms hiring an attorney if they want to play games. I'll win it too.





Heisenburger said:


> No.
> 
> My gross is ~ $32/hour.
> 
> ...


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## Launchpad McQuack (Jan 8, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Funny. *they* have the burden of proof to demonstrate actual fraud.


No, they don't. You have the burden of proof to provide evidence that your deductions are legitimate and valid. It is at the discretion of the IRS to decide whether the evidence that you provide is sufficient to convince them that no fraud occurred (with the exception of cases where the tax code specifies the level of evidence that is needed to be considered sufficient). The IRS doesn't have to prove that any fraud occurred. You have to provide sufficient evidence that fraud did not occur.



Heisenburger said:


> They won't expend the extra human resources just to attempt to get an extra several hundred out of me anyway. It will cost them far more than that.


This I agree with. They go for the low-hanging fruit. They are looking for the people that say "What mileage log?" when they ask them to send them their mileage log. That requires very little effort and when the target does not provide a mileage log, the entire mileage deduction is disallowed. A decent return for very little effort. Actually going through a mileage log to detect invalid entries requires much more resources and yields less return.



Heisenburger said:


> They're not dumb.


In my experience, they are bad at math, though.



Heisenburger said:


> There are *far* too many bigger fish to be caught to waste their resources chasing rideshare drivers.


This is not necessarily true. They are not necessarily looking for big fish. They are looking for return relative to resources expended. Yes, the big fish can provide more return, but the big fish also require more resources to be expended because they have the means to fight things and draw out the process. Statistically, you are most likely to be audited if you take the Earned Income Credit. These are the people that are most likely to not have the means or knowhow to comply with the audit process.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Launchpad McQuack said:


> No, they don't. You have the burden of proof to provide evidence that your deductions are legitimate and valid. It is at the discretion of the IRS to decide whether the evidence that you provide is sufficient to convince them that no fraud occurred (with the exception of cases where the tax code specifies the level of evidence that is needed to be considered sufficient). The IRS doesn't have to prove that any fraud occurred. You have to provide sufficient evidence that fraud did not occur.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


100% correct. The IRS an SSA are two agencies where the burden of proof is on you not them.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> Funny. *they* have the burden of proof to demonstrate actual fraud. Being "bad" at rideshare in terms of driving "too many" miles to obtain a certain gross revenue is utterly irrelevant. They won't expend the extra human resources just to attempt to get an extra several hundred out of me anyway. It will cost them far more than that. They're not dumb. There are *far* too many bigger fish to be caught to waste their resources chasing rideshare drivers.


Trumps tax return is 6,000 pages, yours is 20? To audit Trump will take hundreds of thousands of dollars in billable time from CPA’s and lawyers, to audit yours, one person over two days. Keep thinking you are low hanging fruit. 

The IRS wants to audit low hanging fruit, you can’t afford $250 or $500 for a professional tax person, you can’t afford $6,000 to $10,000 minimum to hire a tax lawyer to defend you. Ever hear the commercials for these companies that help you with audits, the key line in those ads “Do you owe the IRS at least $10,000?”, why, because the average cost to you for an audit is $8k to $10k, and if you’re self employed, it goes up. Yes, they will expend the energy to audit low hanging fruit.


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## Launchpad McQuack (Jan 8, 2019)

Frontier Guy said:


> Trumps tax return is 6,000 pages, yours is 20? To audit Trump will take hundreds of thousands of dollars in billable time from CPA’s and lawyers, to audit yours, one person over two days.


And yet, by Trump's own words, the IRS routinely audits him.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Frontier Guy said:


> Trumps tax return is 6,000 pages, yours is 20? To audit Trump will take hundreds of thousands of dollars in billable time from CPA’s and lawyers, to audit yours, one person over two days. Keep thinking you are low hanging fruit.
> 
> The IRS wants to audit low hanging fruit, you can’t afford $250 or $500 for a professional tax person, you can’t afford $6,000 to $10,000 minimum to hire a tax lawyer to defend you. Ever hear the commercials for these companies that help you with audits, the key line in those ads “Do you owe the IRS at least $10,000?”, why, because the average cost to you for an audit is $8k to $10k, and if you’re self employed, it goes up. Yes, they will expend the energy to audit low hanging fruit.


Most audits are mail audits that barely take any human time at all


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Launchpad McQuack said:


> And yet, by Trump's own words, the IRS routinely audits him.


I bet Melania blows him nightly too


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Seamus said:


> Most audits are mail audits that barely take any human time at all


And generate how much in revenue for the IRS? Because, you know, that low fruit isn’t worth it


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> Yes, they will expend the energy to audit low hanging fruit.


Regardless, my records are immaculate and they'd still need to prove that I padded. They'd need to specifically identify contrary evidence. That's what would take an inordinate amount of time to generate data. That's not happening.

I don't see the relevance of a "professional tax person". Are you under the impression that paying a tax preparer is an insurance policy that protects against an audit or somehow ensures that an audit wouldn't reveal errors?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Launchpad McQuack said:


> The IRS doesn't have to prove that any fraud occurred. You have to provide sufficient evidence that fraud did not occur.


And I already have that. I have all my logs. I have zero fear or concern whatsoever. My logs are tamper proof. Every mile that I've driven and submitted as business mileage is generated and backed by GPS geo-data. They can't simply state that any or all of those miles weren't for business purposes without contrary evidence.


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## Uberisfuninlv (Mar 22, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> I don't see the relevance of a "professional tax person".


“Hello IRS, meet my tax professional, Mr. T, Turbo T”.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Frontier Guy said:


> And every person in federal prison on tax evasion charges said the exact same thing as you, they'll never find it. If you luck and out and never get audited, good on you, but if you are, and after they find your "perfect crime", come back and discuss it with us. Having been audited twice, and knowing multiple people who've been audited multiple times, the IRS is smarter than you think they are.


This is based on the IRS's own rules. There's many examples of individual pings that pay less than the standard mileage rate. That's not including any empty miles either.

If I was doing X still i'd print out a couple dozens screenshots of shitty paying pings and bring them to court to defend not paying any taxes. Not having a lawyer with you wouldnt hurt that argument either. Heck just showing an IRS agent the shitty sub SRM pings might get an audit off your back.

IT is however highly variable based on market and vehicle type.

I have no doubt that an X driver In Orlando would owe less in taxes for $50,000 earned than an uberblack driver in NYC making the same money.

I'm fairly certain that an X driver in Orlando can't make $50,000 in a year but that's a different matter.

Driving a taxi I owe about $20 for every day I work, more or less. Driving uber it would be zero.


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## SinTaxERROR (Jul 23, 2019)

Heisenburger said:


> Truth be told: I also pad my miles in a way that will never be detected by audit.


Must be using a well known national brand, not some cheap store brand… 🥳


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> And I already have that. I have all my logs. I have zero fear or concern whatsoever. My logs are tamper proof. Every mile that I've driven and submitted as business mileage is generated and backed by GPS geo-data. They can't simply state that any or all of those miles weren't for business purposes without contrary evidence.


You think that's all they will review are your logs? That's cute. 
Follow my little story of my first audit: Dec. 19, 2013, that afternoon I picked up the mail, there's a letter in the pile from the IRS, upon opening it, it was notice of an audit for tax year 2011 (the IRS has 3 yrs from completion of a tax year to audit you), they listed specific line items, basically, everything related to form 2106 UNREIMBURSED EMPLOYEE BUSINESS EXPENSES, which as a truck driver, I had a ton of. Now, as @Seamus mentioned, they are typically mail-in audits, and this is very important as related to my comment to him above about how much the IRS collects from those audits.

First I called my Dad's CPA and asked what he would charge to help me with the audit, since he didn't do my taxes, he couldn't help me. He recommended 4 tax attorney's to try, two were too busy preparing for tax season to help me, the other two said they would help, both wanted $1,500 upfront, money I didn't have, and expected it to go up from there. I thanked them. I also called a firm that I heard advertised on the radio for audit assistance, since I didn't know the amount owed, they couldn't help me, but to call them back once I knew. Later on when I called them, they didn't take any case that owed less than $10,000, I now see why.

The notice from the IRS stated I needed to provide copies of all documentation within 20 days of receipt of the letter. No way that was going to happen. Since the biggest part of form 2106 evidence would be copies of my USDOT drivers log books for all miles driven in the semi, as well as receipts for all expenses on the road. The daily logs and those receipts need to match up. On the 20th, I called the IRS to see if I could get an extension to that 20 days. I sat on hold for 6 hours, do you have 6 hours to sit on hold with the IRS?, after sitting on hold, I spoke to a lady who reviewed my file and granted me an extension of 45 days from the end of the 20 days, basically all my evidence would be due to the IRS no later than Feb. 20th, 2014. First I had to make copies of all 365 days of my log book, that was fun, killed my printer in the process after the second log book, so then it was off to the UPS store, where I spent $100 making copies. They normally charge $.75 per page, once they realized my situation, they were cool and reduced the price to $.45 per page. It took me 5 hours to make those copies, as the machine would need reloaded occasionally, and if someone else needed to use it, I'd have to stop. Then, I had to replace my printer/copier, that was $200. Now I had to sort through every single receipt for the year, make copies of them, and match them to those log book pages, and attach them to the logs. That took my wife and I 5 evenings to do. All the while, I'm looking at FORM 2106 to see what items I claimed that year, and where I didn't have receipts (lost, missing or simply never got one) I had to accept that I would owe for those items. Once all was said and done, I had a stack of 600+ pages, they were boxed up and sent priority mail, certified, return receipt requested. In 2011, on form 2106, I claimed unreimbursed expenses for truckstop showers (anywhere from $9 to $15), my meals on the road, misc. expenses (gloves, pens, etc.), I had also paid $600 to a lawyer to represent me for a traffic ticket I got. I'd also bought new steel toed boots, a new flannel jacket, and coveralls for use in the winter. For that year, I was gone 216 nights, I had receipts for 175 of those showers, as for meals, I claimed the standard meal allowance amount of $52/per day based on the IRS own regulations.

Mailed that box off to the IRS on Feb. 14th, then I waited. On June 17th, I received a new letter from the IRS, this time they stated they were expanding the audit to include all line items for tax year 2011, not just FORM 2106, and I had 45 days to get these items to them.

So now, my wife and I had to review our entire 2011 tax return, and see what receipts we had for every single deduction, in the process, thankfully, we track our finances via Quicken, so I was able to go back day by day and look at all expenses for the year that would have been included in the taxes, and if we didn't have something, we had to figure out how to get a copy of it. My wife is epileptic, we spend $140 per month for her meds, but we were missing pharmacy receipts for 4 months. We had to call the pharmacy, they had to research our request, that took a week to get those receipts. I'd had to have dental surgery in 2011, my out of pocket was $2,100, but we couldn't find the statement from the Dentist, so we had to call and get that mailed to us. Same with billing statements from visits to the family Dr., normally we'd only have a credit card receipt for our copay, nope, not good enough for the IRS. Now, we had another 300 pages of documents to mail off to the IRS. Again, certified mail, return receipt requested. Now we sit and wait. 

I believe it was December 5th, 2014, I get a letter from the IRS auditor, asking me to call her and schedule a phone interview, to review and discuss multiple line items. We scheduled that for December 30th, 2014, we took the day off work to deal with it. We spent 3 hours on the phone with the auditor. Since it was close to year end, neither of us had vacation or personal days available, so we both lost income. By the end of 2014, we'd taken a combined 9 days off work to deal with this audit, and were out of pocket around $500 to deal with this. None of this is reimbursed.

Throughout all this, I was doing my research online about being audited, also earlier in the year, I'd talked to one tax expert who was willing to answer questions on the phone, but he stated up front that he was not representing his firm, nor was he responsible for the advice. After that 3 hr phone call, I got a letter from the IRS in mid-Feb. with follow-up questions related to the 3 hr phone call. When I talked to the CPA, he recommended that I submit a notice to the IRS and demand an in-person audit. It would force the IRS to assign my case to someone locally, who review everything and then be forced to do a sit down audit. Yeah, well, this turned into a nightmare.

The IRS accepted our request, in June 2015 I was assigned to a local IRS auditor, she called me, introduced herself, and stated she'd already reviewed my case notes, all my documents, and that she had many questions, and there were many items that needed to be explained, she also stated that she loved to audit truckers and the self employed, because we were known liars, and she'd get the monies owed (when I called the CPA and told him what she said, he asked her name then laughed, she was a well known IRS auditor in the area, and yes, she'd get her money, and if she couldn't, she'd make sure to waste as much of my time as possible). We'd be in touch. In mid-July 2015, the IRS agent reached out to my employer asking multiple questions about how I'm paid, what I'm reimbursed for on the road, if I receive a per diem for meal expenses, etc. At least twice while talking to my boss, the agent threatened to have my employer audited, when my boss was hesitant or slow to answer questions (my boss was also 8 1/2 months pregnant at the time, and in no mood to deal with this).

In September 2015, my wife and I sat down with the agent to review everything, that took 4 hours. When we were done, no handshake, no formalities, just have a nice afternoon before we left. 

In November, I received a letter from the IRS, actually a 4 page letter, explaining in detail all the items that were being disallowed, or otherwise prohibited. This included all 175 showers (they were not a reasonable and necessary expense, as I took showers at home and couldn't claim those as an expense, why would I expect to claim those showers on the road), upon reviewing my logs, she reduced my meal deduction from 216 nights to 160 nights, with no explanation given. She also disallowed my steel toed boots, her logic was those were not a necessity, and not a business expense as they could be worn outside of work. Despite the fact that they are a necessity, as many of the factories and job sites I dealt with, required steel toed boots and hard hats. She also disallowed my chemical gloves that I use when dealing with HAZMAT loads, even though these are USDOT and OSHA requirement. The company my wife worked at the time had a specific uniform requirement, that she had to buy on her own, though the company gave her $2.00/week for cleaning. The special slacks she wore cost $55 each, she had 6 of them, we had to buy new pants every year. Since my wife worked in a restaurant, she had to wear slip resistant shoes, again OSHA requirement, the IRS disallowed these as not a reasonable expense. She disallowed the $600 to the lawyer, despite the fact that had I now hired him, and been convicted on the ticket, I would have lost my job. By the IRS regulations, this is an allowable expense. All in all, in 2012, we received a refund for 2011 of $187 from the IRS, we now owed the IRS $6,460.90 including interest and penalties, I had 30 days to respond.

We are now almost 2 yrs from the original audit letter. Thanks to my research, I filed an appeal to the tax court, and demanded a hearing in December 2015. This time around, the IRS moved quick, on Jan 29th, 2016, I got a letter and phone call from the IRS office of appeals, that my case had been assigned to them, and they would be reviewing it and reaching out to schedule a hearing. On March 16th, 2016, I spent 3 hours with an IRS appeals officer, super nice Asian lady. I wheeled in a dolly with every scrap of paper, as well as hundreds of pages downloaded from the internet, with highlights and notes as to how these regulations applied to me and my deductions. When all was said and done, in May 2016, I received a letter from the IRS Appeals office. Based upon review, they reinstated my 175 showers that I had proof of, they changed my meals deductions from 160 days to 190 days, they allowed my chemical gloves, but only a partial deduction for my boots. They disallowed my wife's work pants, no reason given, but allowed her slip resistant shoes. The $6,460.90 was reduced to $1,216.20 with interest and penalties, I could spread it out over 24 months with no additional penalties or interest, and they would given me 90 days to make the first payment. I could appeal this amount for review with the tax court, or I could accept the review. After talking to the CPA, he asked how much of my business expenses were 100% legit and how much were "padded", I plead the 5th. He suggested that I take the $1,200 offer, because if we went to tax court itself, they would order an intensive examination of everything I submitted, and if there was "padding" they would find it, and the judge would throw the book at us.

Going back to @Seamus comments, and my comments, not everyone has the ability, time or wherewithal to fight the IRS like I did. In the end, my wife and I spent or lost $4,000 to fight the IRS. Do you have this ability?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> You think that's all they will review are your logs?


 No but I'm not sure why you would bring that up. Every single one of my comments here relates specifically to business mileage. To be more specific all of my comments in this thread are about only the actual miles driven and reported. They are more than welcome to request my mileage logs. I can produce them and have them sent to them within an hour.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> Do you have this ability?


It's actually a pretty irrelevant question. That's because the sheer variety of items that you claimed are not even remotely things that I would claim. It appears that you tried to claim everything under the sun. I'm not surprised that you got audited.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Launchpad McQuack said:


> It is at the discretion of the IRS to decide whether the evidence that you provide is sufficient to convince them that no fraud occurred


Actually that duty falls to the courts.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

Frontier Guy said:


> And every person in federal prison on tax evasion charges said the exact same thing as you, they'll never find it. If you luck and out and never get audited, good on you, but if you are, and after they find your "perfect crime", come back and discuss it with us. Having been audited twice, and knowing multiple people who've been audited multiple times, the IRS is smarter than you think they are.


Like those guys getting unemployment and driving. Full time. Thier screwed.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

bobby747 said:


> Like those guys getting unemployment and driving. Full time. Thier screwed.


Not if you're referring to the unemployment that fell under the Cares Act.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

I am talking about double dipping collecting and working. They will get caught and pay big in future


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

bobby747 said:


> I am talking about double dipping collecting and working. They will get caught and pay big in future


It was literally allowed. I drove and collected. As long as you reported everything you weren't doing anything illegal. Some weeks I got the full unemployment payment some weeks I got none of it. I know here in my state after the restrictions were lifted , you lost your unemployment if you weren't driving because there's literally no reason for you to not be driving. So they saw it as you refusing to work


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

Daisey77 i am talking about the cheater's..who did not report..time will get them as IRS is a follower..


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## ObeyTheNumbers (7 mo ago)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> A growing number of pings fail to cover the standard mileage rate.
> 
> This one is $40 under the standard mileage rate.
> 
> ...


Tell me you didn't take that 48 cents a mile crap trip. 🤯


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> Tell me you didn't take that 48 cents a mile crap trip. 🤯


24 cents a mile if you have to deadhead back... not my market so idk what the prospects of a return ride are

In any case, even at 48c, you're not making shit


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> No but I'm not sure why you would bring that up. Every single one of my comments here relates specifically to business mileage. To be more specific all of my comments in this thread are about only the actual miles driven and reported. They are more than welcome to request my mileage logs. I can produce them and have them sent to them within an hour.


Again, that's cute that you think that's all they will audit.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Seamus said:


> 100% correct. The IRS an SSA are two agencies where the burden of proof is on you not them.


Today I learned:

In any civil proceeding involving the issue whether a taxpayer has been guilty of fraud with intent to evade tax, the IRS has the burden of proof.



> Internal Revenue Code §7454
> 
> 7454(a) Fraud In any proceeding involving the issue whether the petitioner has been guilty of fraud with intent to evade tax, the burden of proof in respect of such issue shall be upon the Secretary.


When one claims business mileage deduction of X amount based on Y miles and an audit is triggered by an examiner alleging that some or all of the claimed business miles are "too high" (on whatever basis like their personal assumptions or even "just because"), and the preparer produces the mileage logs that actually support their claimed business miles, and the auditor weirdly says "no that still can't be accurate regardless", this becomes a de facto allegation of fraud. Enter 7454(a) and the auditor has lots of legwork ahead to make her case. She's just gonna drop it.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Ted Fink said:


> even at 48c, you're not making shit


Oh I thought that _was_ shit pay! 🤣


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> Again, that's cute that you think that's all they will audit.


I have my mobile phone service, dashcam, and carwash receipts.

I don't do amenities like water bottles, gum, mints, candy.

I don't claim my clothing,shoes, haircuts or toiletries. 

Am I missing something?


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> I have my mobile phone service, dashcam, and carwash receipts.
> 
> I don't do amenities like water bottles, gum, mints, candy.
> 
> ...


If U/L report on your 1099 that that you drove 10,00 miles combined, and you report you drove 15,000 miles, how will you account for those miles? Please cite the specific documents and evidence that you will present to show that you actually drove those miles while doing rideshare.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> Today I learned:
> 
> In any civil proceeding involving the issue whether a taxpayer has been guilty of fraud with intent to evade tax, the IRS has the burden of proof.
> 
> ...


Uh huh, sure hope you have your tax lawyer handy when you go to court, because they can simply side step your request for them to prove it.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Heisenburger said:


> Today I learned:
> 
> In any civil proceeding involving the issue whether a taxpayer has been guilty of fraud with intent to evade tax, the IRS has the burden of proof.
> 
> ...


If you read my posts I never mentioned fraud. The burden of proof is on you to justify your deductions or they can be disallowed or reduced.

Fraud is an entirely different matter and they usually disallow your deduction without charging you with fraud. Fraud is an entirely different charge and of course as with any charge the burden of proof is on them.

The difference between you and me is that you are talking in the theoretical and I have been thru 4 audits in the last 30 years. They aren’t fun.

Ive been audited not because of gig work or my W2 but thru other Enterprises which sometimes create wild swings in year to year income which seems to raise flags in their algorithms. On 3 of 4 audits I came away very well as I had thorough documentation to justify my return. Unfortunately 1 of the 4 was a very expensive, painful outcome.

By the way, during one audit they asked me to submit my mileage log!  As was said they can look at anything and everything. Also, they are nice enough to notify your state for you if there has been an adjustment.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> If U/L report on your 1099 that that you drove 10,00 miles combined, and you report you drove 15,000 miles, how will you account for those miles? Please cite the specific documents and evidence that you will present to show that you actually drove those miles while doing rideshare.


Just like everyone else, I use one of a dozen plus mileage tracking apps. And if anyone wishes to allege that daily start and end odometer readings are required on a per trip basis, I only look at authoritative sources, not some unverifiable personal stories about having been audited. I'm entirely unswayed by anecdotes because they can easily be fabricated and are subjective.

Here's a sample:

```
Date Distance Job Tax Deduction Value Record Type Details

07/05/2022 156.61 mi Rideshare $97.88 automatic South Fulton, Georgia, 30331, United States - Smyrna, Georgia, 30080, United States
```



Frontier Guy said:


> Uh huh, sure hope you have your tax lawyer handy when you go to court, because they can simply side step your request for them to prove it.


It seems like you may be uncomfortable with criminal law proceedings.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Seamus said:


> other Enterprises


Like Heisenberg's or Gus Fring's?


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> Just like everyone else, I use one of a dozen plus mileage tracking apps. And if anyone wishes to allege that daily start and end odometer readings are required on a per trip basis, I only look at authoritative sources, not some unverifiable personal stories about having been audited. I'm entirely unswayed by anecdotes because they can easily be fabricated and are subjective.
> 
> Here's a sample:
> 
> ...


Personally, I don't care whether or not you believe me, although there are others on this forum who have been audited since doing rideshare, but perhaps you would like me to upload all the docs related to my audit, I believe it close to 4,000 pages, it's an awesome read. Perhaps I can also get the audio from the meeting with the appeals officer transcripted and uploaded. As mentioned once before, when I proved you wrong, you simply have to be right and cannot allow anyone to show you that you are wrong or might be wrong. Hopefully you are never audited, but if you think you have all your bases covered, I'd beg to differ. There are former IRS auditors who now work for private companies defending people in audits who are still beaten by the IRS and lose audits. The IRS will change the rules midstream in order to screw you. 

LMAO, I'm very comfortable with criminal law proceedings, which court would like, US District Court for the District of Colorado, City and County of Denver, or Jefferson County (Colorado) District Court? I've faced criminal proceedings in all 3, the US District Court was the best, Judge Matsch was cool all three times I went before him, both initial hearing, for initial sentencing and later following my appeal and resentencing.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Seamus said:


> ...Also, they are nice enough to notify your state for you if there has been an adjustment.


Yes, they are nice enough to do that, I was very appreciative of them for doing that , so was the state of Colorado ,


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> Personally, I don't care whether or not you believe me, although there are others on this forum who have been audited since doing rideshare, but perhaps you would like me to upload all the docs related to my audit, I believe it close to 4,000 pages, it's an awesome read. Perhaps I can also get the audio from the meeting with the appeals officer transcripted and uploaded. As mentioned once before, when I proved you wrong, you simply have to be right and cannot allow anyone to show you that you are wrong or might be wrong. Hopefully you are never audited, but if you think you have all your bases covered, I'd beg to differ. There are former IRS auditors who now work for private companies defending people in audits who are still beaten by the IRS and lose audits. The IRS will change the rules midstream in order to screw you.
> 
> LMAO, I'm very comfortable with criminal law proceedings, which court would like, US District Court for the District of Colorado, City and County of Denver, or Jefferson County (Colorado) District Court? I've faced criminal proceedings in all 3, the US District Court was the best, Judge Matsch was cool all three times I went before him, both initial hearing, for initial sentencing and later following my appeal and resentencing.


You might be missing my subtle point: I'm Heisenburger and I face far worse things than a silly IRS employee every day. I don't fear a single one of them because I know how the system works. Your circumstances are so different from mine as to be utterly irrelevant to me. Just because we have one source of income in common doesn't mean diddly from the perspective of an examiner.

I don't get off on fear mongering either.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> You might be missing my subtle point: I'm Heisenburger and I face far worse things than a silly IRS employee every day. I don't fear a single one of them because I know how the system works. Your circumstances are so different from mine as to be utterly irrelevant to me. Just because we have one source of income in common doesn't mean diddly from the perspective of an examiner.
> 
> I don't get off on fear mongering either.


<<subtle response >>
Hi @Heisenburger , I’m an IRS agent, I have the power to audit and prosecute anyone for tax fraud, my predecessors put notorious mobsters John Dillinger and Al Capone in prison when the criminal justice system couldn’t. I can, and do audit God (churches), fortune 50 companies, and I make all of them pay their fair share of taxes. I’m not here to engage in fear mongering, I’m here to impose reality on you. I have the ability to reinterpret my own laws at will and the courts will side with me in 98% of cases. I can audit you for one line item or the entire return, if I find a questionable item on that one line item, I will most likely expand the audit to include your entire return. I can seize your inc, your house, your bank accounts. In the course of an audit, I can freeze your bank accounts too. It’s not fear, it’s reality.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> <<subtle response >>
> Hi @Heisenburger , I’m an IRS agent, I have the power to audit and prosecute anyone for tax fraud, my predecessors put notorious mobsters John Dillinger and Al Capone in prison when the criminal justice system couldn’t. I can, and do audit God (churches), fortune 50 companies, and I make all of them pay their fair share of taxes. I’m not here to engage in fear mongering, I’m here to impose reality on you. I have the ability to reinterpret my own laws at will and the courts will side with me in 98% of cases. I can audit you for one line item or the entire return, if I find a questionable item on that one line item, I will most likely expand the audit to include your entire return. I can seize your inc, your house, your bank accounts. In the course of an audit, I can freeze your bank accounts too. It’s not fear, it’s reality.


None of that changes my approach.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

Frontier Guy said:


> <<subtle response >>
> Hi @Heisenburger , I’m an IRS agent, I have the power to audit and prosecute anyone for tax fraud, my predecessors put notorious mobsters John Dillinger and Al Capone in prison when the criminal justice system couldn’t. I can, and do audit God (churches), fortune 50 companies, and I make all of them pay their fair share of taxes. I’m not here to engage in fear mongering, I’m here to impose reality on you. I have the ability to reinterpret my own laws at will and the courts will side with me in 98% of cases. I can audit you for one line item or the entire return, if I find a questionable item on that one line item, I will most likely expand the audit to include your entire return. I can seize your inc, your house, your bank accounts. In the course of an audit, I can freeze your bank accounts too. It’s not fear, it’s reality.





Frontier Guy said:


> <<subtle response >>
> Hi @Heisenburger , I’m an IRS agent, I have the power to audit and prosecute anyone for tax fraud, my predecessors put notorious mobsters John Dillinger and Al Capone in prison when the criminal justice system couldn’t. I can, and do audit God (churches), fortune 50 companies, and I make all of them pay their fair share of taxes. I’m not here to engage in fear mongering, I’m here to impose reality on you. I have the ability to reinterpret my own laws at will and the courts will side with me in 98% of cases. I can audit you for one line item or the entire return, if I find a questionable item on that one line item, I will most likely expand the audit to include your entire return. I can seize your inc, your house, your bank accounts. In the course of an audit, I can freeze your bank accounts too. It’s not fear, it’s reality.


Hmm.. impersonating a federal agent across state lines for purposes of intimidation. That’s got to be worth some jail time. 
@Heisenburger should report this to his IRS Office.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Heisenburger said:


> None of that changes my approach.


BTW, you asked above if I was comfortable in criminal court, I'm comfortable in federal prison, spent a little time there back in the 90's, but that's for a different thread. And somehow, I'll wager you'll try and dispute my time and experience there without any knowledge on your part. I'm sure you'll call it anecdotal or something.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> Al Capone


 by the way did you know he had syphilis? Totally off topic to this thread. . . I know, but it is something I learned here on UP. net 😅 just a fun fact . . . that's all. . . Carry on


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Atavar said:


> Hmm.. impersonating a federal agent across state lines for purposes of intimidation. That’s got to be worth some jail time.
> @Heisenburger should report this to his IRS Office.


I think this is a wonderful idea, then I can show the IRS agent this thread, maybe we'll be in the same prison


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