# It's confirmed Amazon takes 30% of you tips. Here is how we know.



## Transporter316

Here was the first sign that we knew Amazon took some of our tips they don't give you a detail of what the customer has tipped you out like doordash. The second sign was that Amazon tells customers to tip in the app instead of giving them the option to tip in cash. So how did we find out? We have asked each customer on our route, "How much should you tip?" And when the total comes out in 2 days we saw a difference from what was paid out. You can do the same and then you can see the Amazon steals your tips! Tell customers to tip in cash.


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## rozz

We need more evidence than this. So you mean you asked each and every customer how much they tipped? Could very well be they lied. I'm not saying you're wrong as I've seen a lot of zero tips for one hour orders.


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## icantdeliverhere

Wasn't this confirmed a along time ago. A Driver in SF,CA got a 1Hr block and then ended up with a package going to their friends . they took photos and and very thing but they never received that tip.....I believe that how the was...


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## dkcs

With the new instant offers they are broken out by delivery so you can go back and ask the customer why they stiffed you or thank them for the great tip.


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## 2Cents

These #@$& Gig economies companies...
Get away with it because... you're not an actual employee.


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## soupergloo

hahaha I'm not going to ask each & every customer if/how much they tipped, some people might be really offended by it.

I tested it when my bf delivered an order I placed for a 2-hour route, and they passed the whole tip along back then, but that was nearly a year ago.

another driver at my warehouse said he placed a 1-hour order, tipped $5, driver said he didn't receive it, emailed Amazon and then had a tip adjustment for the next pay statement.

they're not allowed to make our tips part of our hourly wage in California, so stealing tips would be a *huge *lawsuit


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## rozz

I just find it very odd that very decent and seemingly kind people I deliver to don't tip for 1 hours. Perhaps they put 1 hour tips towards the block that the order was placed in or delivered in which makes it hard to pinpoint.


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## soupergloo

rozz said:


> I just find it very odd that very decent and seemingly kind people I deliver to don't tip for 1 hours. Perhaps they put 1 hour tips towards the block that the order was placed in or delivered in which makes it hard to pinpoint.


I agree with this .. I went from either making $5 or being stiffed completely on 1-hours, and to all of the sudden everyone making $1 exactly on every 1-hour. seems shady


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## Transporter316

rozz said:


> We need more evidence than this. So you mean you asked each and every customer how much they tipped? Could very well be they lied. I'm not saying you're wrong as I've seen a lot of zero tips for one hour orders.


3 of us did this on a 4 hour shift, a customer has no reason to lie, sounds like you are trying to defend Amazon!! You need to prove they don't steal tips, not the other way around, what a shady company!



rozz said:


> We need more evidence than this. So you mean you asked each and every customer how much they tipped? Could very well be they lied. I'm not saying you're wrong as I've seen a lot of zero tips for one hour orders.


They don't steal the whole tip, just a percentage. Their are cases were customers wanted to tip they just closed out the ap to quick.



2Cents said:


> These [email protected]$& Gig economies companies...
> Get away with it because... you're not an actual employee.


Agreed!!


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## dkcs

soupergloo said:


> hahaha I'm not going to ask each & every customer if/how much they tipped, some people might be really offended by it.
> 
> I tested it when my bf delivered an order I placed for a 2-hour route, and they passed the whole tip along back then, but that was nearly a year ago.
> 
> another driver at my warehouse said he placed a 1-hour order, tipped $5, driver said he didn't receive it, emailed Amazon and then had a tip adjustment for the next pay statement.
> 
> they're not allowed to make our tips part of our hourly wage in California, so stealing tips would be a *huge *lawsuit


On the one instant order I delivered the other night I ended up with no tip. $8 to deliver 6 pizza's on an $80 order to a million dollar beach home and not a penny. I find that hard to believe. Pizza's were fresh, delivered early and stored in a pizza bag for the 5 minute drive from the restaurant.

I've seen a marked decrease in my tip amounts from 6 months ago. I believe Amazon is now allocating tips in California and are taking the position that the California law does not apply to us because we not are employees.


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## kmatt

They take $3 of our tips per half hour. If we receive tips on a 2 hour Prime now block, Amazon takes the first $12 of tips and we get the rest. I proved this awhile ago. I wanted to prove my theory as I was on an 830-10 block. It was slow and I had no orders so I decided to place a one hour order as a customer myself as I knew I would be the next driver to deliver this one hour to my house. I "tipped" myself what I thought was $12.27 but Amazon only gave me a $3.27 tip. If they weren't taking $3 per half hour of our tips then I should have been paid $27+12.27tip=$39.27 for the block. Instead I was paid $27+3.27tip=$30.27?!?
See the $9 difference? That's Amazon's cut. Mafia style


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## Hambone

We already know amazon has a set amount they will pay for that shift. If the amount they set for that shift is less than the "Guaranteed" amount they will cover tips until you reach the threshold and you will get the extra. If the "Guaranteed" amount is already set at $18, you will get all the tips on top of that and you will not notice. It all depends on what that amount is set before the shift and we will never know since Amazon will never tell us.


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## soupergloo

dkcs said:


> I've seen a marked decrease in my tip amounts from 6 months ago. I believe Amazon is now allocating tips in California and are taking the position that the California law does not apply to us because we are employees.


I'd love to test it again, especially for 1-hours, but my address is outside of their delivery region for one hour deliveries.


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## Flexist

kmatt said:


> They take $3 of our tips per half hour. If we receive tips on a 2 hour Prime now block, Amazon takes the first $12 of tips and we get the rest. I proved this awhile ago. I wanted to prove my theory as I was on an 830-10 block. It was slow and I had no orders so I decided to place a one hour order as a customer myself as I knew I would be the next driver to deliver this one hour to my house. I "tipped" myself what I thought was $12.27 but Amazon only gave me a $3.27 tip. If they weren't taking $3 per half hour of our tips then I should have been paid $27+12.27tip=$39.27 for the block. Instead I was paid $27+3.27tip=$30.27?!?
> See the $9 difference? That's Amazon's cut. Mafia style


Wow.

I am sure a good attorney company would be more than happy to jump on that class action lawsuit.


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## rozz

Rozz is not a defender of Amazon. What I'm saying is more testing needs to be done. Customers are not a good source of data as they will not respond IN EARNEST to questions asking HOW MUCH THEY TIPPED. I would be offended as hell if asked that and would go back in the app to TAKE THAT TIP AWAY.


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## grams777

It’s been discussed a lot elesewhere but the bottom line is that each market and each block has a variable base amount. This can be equal to or less than the hourly guarantee amount. Tips are then added to this variable base. If the variable base was less than the hourly rate, your tips start to get applied toward the hourly minimum.

Some markets and blocks may have the base equal to the hourly rate. This means you get all your tips. In my case, when this started it equated to about a $13 base per hour. Then the first $5 per hour of tips got applied toward the $18 (or taken away basically).

Before all this started, my one hour, one delivery blocks were almost always $23. After it, they all went to down to $18. One time I saw one for $19.

The rest of my blocks similarly went down about $5 per hour or about $200 per week.

Some states and areas and times can be different. So some people’s experience does not mean it is the same company wide.

Amazon flat out refuses to give the actual amounts. But they will reply with an email about how they used to do it is different because now there is a variable base component. You just won’t know what it is.

Try asking them sometime exactly how much your tips were for a block, day, week, or anything. They’ll refuse on a so-called privacy concern.

Lyft used to do this with their hourly guarantees also (except they did disclose the tip amounts). They recently just changed it though to give you your tips on top of the hourly guarantees.

It’s not likely to change for the better at Amazon. Their delivery costs are always under pressure for this segment of their business. There’s not much, if any profit here for Amazon like there is with their web services.


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## Flexist

That is the exact opposite of what Amazon states. At least for my market.

Has Amazon disclosed that they do skim tips in any market?


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## kmatt

Flexist said:


> That is the exact opposite of what Amazon states. At least for my market.
> 
> Has Amazon disclosed that they do skim tips in any market?


It's true that technically we get all of our tips from customers. What is also true is Amazon can lower their base pay to us anyway they want as long as we are getting at least $18/hr. Amazon basically pays $12/hr base out of their pocket to drivers. Hell of a deal for them and still not a bad deal for us when we have a lot of stops and make good tips.


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## grams777

Flexist said:


> That is the exact opposite of what Amazon states. At least for my market.
> 
> Has Amazon disclosed that they do skim tips in any market?


It's a word game. You do get all of your tips. What they don't tell you is how much they lowered the base pay to which they add all of your tips.

It's a similar thing with restaurant hosts etc. They get around $3 per hour base pay plus their tips with a minimum wage hourly guarantee.


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## Flexist

The way the estimated block earnings are presented, every reasonable person understands that as $18/hour being the base pay.

"Varying the base pay" is just a weak gimmicky justification for stealing tips.

I did not think Amazon was actually doing this until I saw the screenshots posted by the guy above.

What a shady scummy company.


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## jester121

Try dealing with them as a retailer....

You didn't really think all that "Delivering Smiles" bullshit was anything more than marketing feel-good nonsense, did you?


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## Fauxknight

Been seeing this on instant offers for restaurants as well more than on restaurant scheduled shifts here. On scheduled shifts I usually end up with ~$4 in tips per delivery compared to ~$1 on instant offers.

I'm guessing this means the hourly base pay is on or near the minimum for scheduled shifts, in fact I'd say equal since if I do 1 delivery in 4 hours I get the tip. On the other hand the base pay for an instant offer seems to be set several dollars lower than the offer's face value.

I don't have any concrete proof like some other posters, but so far on 9 instant offers that have been finalized I have yet to receive an electronic tip higher than $2. Considering the default is $5 and how often I get that much on scheduled shifts, about 50% of orders it seems, the chances that every single one of my instant offers has been a shitty tipper isn't very likely. I'd be willing to gamble that the instant offer base is set $3 lower than the minimum for the offer, that would explain the $1-2s that I keep seeing. Of course just for wrongness' sake the instant offers always have a $5 variable, insinuating that you would get to keep the whole $5 default tip.


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## grams777

Variable base pay is admitted directly by Amazon Flex support. It's right there in the second paragraph below. This was in response to my inquiry about what was going on with tips after they dropped here early in 2017.

They admit that they had just recently introduced it and it was not like that before. They clearly state in the first paragraph below that before this, there was a fixed base of $18 plus all tips added to that. Now, in the second paragraph that is replaced with an undisclosed variable base pay.

As stated by them, their commitment to $18-25 did not change. But your ability to exceed it is much harder with variable base pay absorbing some of the tips.


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## rozz

grams777 said:


> Variable base pay is admitted directly by Amazon Flex support. It's right there in the second paragraph below. This was in response to my inquiry about what was going on with tips after they dropped here early in 2017. They admit that they had just recently introduced it and it was not like that before:
> 
> View attachment 196048


Wow! Thanks for this. No wonder no one's making money on one hours! I will try to avoid them from now on! It's kind of amazing VBP is not allowed in California but many employers still do it because no one's watching!

Anyone in for a lawsuit or two?

EDIT: Oops I mean tip credits are not allowed. I'm not too sure about VBP.


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## Flexist

To put this in perspective, if you work 40 hours a week and Amazon steals $3/half an hour as suggested by the screenshots, Amazon could be stealing from you

$6 x 8 hours = $48 per day
$48 x 5 = $240 per week
$240 x 4 = $960 per month
$960 x 12 = $11,520 per year !!!

If that screenshot represents a typical skim, this company steals from you 11,520 damn dollars per damn year!!!

Given how shady they are and do not now disclose the "service fee" as they should according to the contract, God knows for how long they have been scamming and robbing you.


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## dkcs

rozz said:


> Wow! Thanks for this. No wonder no one's making money on one hours! I will try to avoid them from now on! It's kind of amazing VBP is not allowed in California but many employers still do it because no one's watching!
> 
> Anyone in for a lawsuit or two?
> 
> EDIT: Oops I mean tip credits are not allowed. I'm not too sure about VBP.


I can assure you Amazon is now doing variable base pay in California as well...


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## rozz

dkcs said:


> I can assure you Amazon is now doing variable base pay in California as well...


Yes I had a feeling they were doing it and there's no one stopping them. Many restaurant owners apply tip credits even though it's not allowed. They use fuzzy math (demand) to justify it. Sad.


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## Side Hustle

grams777 said:


> Variable base pay is admitted directly by Amazon Flex support. It's right there in the second paragraph below. This was in response to my inquiry about what was going on with tips after they dropped here early in 2017.
> 
> They admit that they had just recently introduced it and it was not like that before. They clearly state in the first paragraph below that before this, there was a fixed base of $18 plus all tips added to that. Now, in the second paragraph that is replaced with an undisclosed variable base pay.
> 
> As stated by them, their commitment to $18-25 did not change. But your ability to exceed it is much harder with variable base pay absorbing some of the tips.
> 
> View attachment 196048


Welcome to upfront pricing 2.0.


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## soupergloo

dkcs said:


> I can assure you Amazon is now doing variable base pay in California as well...


I don't get how they can legally do this in California, even with our variable base pay, it says "plus tips" and they still advertise drivers receive 100% of tips from customers.

Amazon is ****ing stupid, all of these other platforms have been sued for a lot less and Amazon has been walking a fine line since the beginning.

I'm gonna test it this week, and if the driver I do it with receives less than what I tipped, i'm not going to even bring it to Amazon's attention, i'm brining it straight to an attorney along with a list of all of the other shady shit Amazon has been getting away with since the beginning.


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## rozz

Let's assume VBP is allowed. It's still shady because they don't TELL US what the base pay is!


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## Fauxknight

rozz said:


> Let's assume VBP is allowed. It's still shady because they don't TELL US what the base pay is!


Yes, that's the shady part. The whole thing isn't necessarily illegal per se, but it's very shady to not be upfront about how much we are actually getting paid.


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## dkcs

soupergloo said:


> I don't get how they can legally do this in California, even with our variable base pay, it says "plus tips" and they still advertise drivers receive 100% of tips from customers.
> 
> Amazon is &%[email protected]!*ing stupid, all of these other platforms have been sued for a lot less and Amazon has been walking a fine line since the beginning.
> 
> I'm gonna test it this week, and if the driver I do it with receives less than what I tipped, i'm not going to even bring it to Amazon's attention, i'm brining it straight to an attorney along with a list of all of the other shady shit Amazon has been getting away with since the beginning.


The California law explicitly states that it applies to employees. Until we get a California court to rule that we are employees then the laws covering California employees don't apply to us.

When you have billions laws don't apply to you in the same way. Even if a court were to find Amazon in violation of the law there isn't any penalty except for payment of the correct back wages which is why all of these companies keep getting away with it. Pretty much these laws are all bark and no bite.

Amazon could also very well have their system take into account unusual large tip amounts and have those passed untouched to the driver to avoid just this type of test.



rozz said:


> Let's assume VBP is allowed. It's still shady because they don't TELL US what the base pay is!


GREASY!


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## WMUber

Transporter316 said:


> 3 of us did this on a 4 hour shift, a customer has no reason to lie, sounds like you are trying to defend Amazon!! You need to prove they don't steal tips, not the other way around, what a shady company!


Actually, you need to prove Amazon is steeling tips. You are making the claim that Amazon is skimming 30% of the tip, you need to back it up with verifiable evidence. Buyers are liars. The customer may deviate from the tip in the following ways:

1) He says $5.00, but actually rounded up his purchase to a whole dollar and tipped you $4.72.
2) A husband says he tipped you $5.00, but the wife placed the order and tipped you $3.50.
3) He was embarrassed to say he only tipped you $3.00 and told you it was $5.00.

In addition, each state has there own tip credit/independent contractor laws. You cannot make a blanket statement about Amazon's policies when it varies from state to state. The State of Ohio allows for employers to apply $4.15 of tips to an hourly wage. In California tip credits are illegal against any hourly pay, but are allowed against bonuses and single contract jobs.



grams777 said:


> Variable base pay is admitted directly by Amazon Flex support. It's right there in the second paragraph below. This was in response to my inquiry about what was going on with tips after they dropped here early in 2017.
> 
> They admit that they had just recently introduced it and it was not like that before. They clearly state in the first paragraph below that before this, there was a fixed base of $18 plus all tips added to that. Now, in the second paragraph that is replaced with an undisclosed variable base pay.
> 
> As stated by them, their commitment to $18-25 did not change. But your ability to exceed it is much harder with variable base pay absorbing some of the tips.
> 
> View attachment 196048


Again, it varies from state to state. California drivers did not receive this email. However for restaurant deliveries, Amazon is testing a Postmates model (called Instant Offers). What is shady is that Amazon just doesn't disclose to their drivers the formula. The nondisclosure may be what gets Amazon in trouble.


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## grams777

WMUber said:


> Actually, you need to prove Amazon is steeling tips. You are making the claim that Amazon is skimming 30% of the tip, you need to back it up with verifiable evidence. Buyers are liars. The customer may deviate from the tip in the following ways:
> 
> 1) He says $5.00, but actually rounded up his purchase to a whole dollar and tipped you $4.72.
> 2) A husband says he tipped you $5.00, but the wife placed the order and tipped you $3.50.
> 3) He was embarrassed to say he only tipped you $3.00 and told you it was $5.00.
> 
> In addition, each state has there own tip credit/independent contractor laws. You cannot make a blanket statement about Amazon's policies when it varies from state to state. The State of Ohio allows for employers to apply $4.15 of tips to an hourly wage. In California tip credits are illegal against any hourly pay, but are allowed against bonuses and single contract jobs.
> 
> Again, it varies from state to state. California drivers did not receive this email. However for restaurant deliveries, Amazon is testing a Postmates model (called Instant Offers). What is shady is that Amazon just doesn't disclose to their drivers the formula. The nondisclosure may be what gets Amazon in trouble.


That's really the problem. There should be disclosure on pay line items including how much is wages and how much is tips. I think they'd still have plenty of drivers. I'm not sure what they really benefit from hiding it. This model is applied in other gigs and jobs where I've always seen full disclosure.

Also, nobody really 'got' the email per se as if it were sent as a notice. It was only sent to a very few as a reply when an inquiry was made about their tips and pay. As far as I know this email was never sent nor there was never any voluntary disclosure to anyone until they asked about it in a support ticket.

It will be difficult to prove it because amazon has control over the finances and refuses to state the actual numbers. But the email which I received makes no sense unless they were applying tips in some cases. Also, at least here, it's really hard to explain how you almost never get any tips unless you exceed one stop per hour. I've seen other drivers also show me days where they got stuck on single stop, one hours all day long and never exceeded $18 per hour when before this it was usually $23.


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## rozz

grams777 said:


> That's really the problem. There should be disclosure on pay line items including how much is wages and how much is tips. I think they'd still have plenty of drivers. I'm not sure what they really benefit from hiding it.
> 
> Also, nobody really 'got' the email per se as if it were sent as a notice. It was only sent only to a very few as a reply when an inquiry was made about their tips and pay. As far as I know this email was never sent nor there was never any voluntary disclosure to anyone until they asked about it in a support ticket.


I guess they neglect to separate wages vs tips to keep it Flexible (ha). Even if they were to disclose such information our pay would stay the same. We are upset that the pay is lower than what it used to be, not that they're not transparent.


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## grams777

rozz said:


> I guess they neglect to separate wages vs tips to keep it Flexible (ha). Even if they were to disclose such information our pay would stay the same. We are upset that the pay is lower than what it used to be, not that they're not transparent.


That's true about the pay. But amazon really can set the pay to whatever they want. They can just say ok $12 (or $18 or whatever) per hour plus tips and be done with it if they want. Just be upfront and stop the song and dance.

The shady area is in hiding what they are doing. That's a really low step for anyone to take, especially a company the size of Amazon who supposedly has certain ethical standards that they expect from others but themselves don't do.

Take a look here:
Amazon is strongly committed to conducting its business in a lawful and ethical manner, including engaging with suppliers that are committed to the same principles.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200885140&tag=ubne0c-20

Most of the policy is a load of hypocrisy and crap.

From what I've seen, they'd still have plenty of drivers. After this started, and pay lowered significantly, it was still just as hard to get blocks.


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## rozz

grams777 said:


> That's true about the pay. But amazon really can set the pay to whatever they want. They can just say ok $12 (or $18 or whatever) per hour plus tips and be done with it if they want. Just be upfront and stop the song and dance. The shady area is in hiding what they are doing. From what I've seen, they'd still have plenty of drivers. After this started, and pay lowered significantly, it was still just as hard to get blocks.


They knew exactly what were doing with the variable pay change and mass hiring to create scarcity. And yes the flexible part only benefits them. Say you get a block with only 1 delivery. They can "justify" it after the fact by saying demand was not high enough for them to pay you X amount + tips. But from their email they're saying demand and routes are predetermined. If they're so good at predicting demand then say so in the pay amount before we accept! This is pure creative accounting on their part.


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## Flexist

WMUber said:


> Actually, you need to prove Amazon is steeling tips. You are making the claim that Amazon is skimming 30% of the tip, you need to back it up with verifiable evidence. Buyers are liars. The customer may deviate from the tip in the following ways:


Did you just not see the screenshots of the guy who tipped himself???? They are on the first page of this thread.


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## WMUber

Flexist said:


> That is the exact opposite of what Amazon states. At least for my market.
> 
> Has Amazon disclosed that they do skim tips in any market?


Actually, tips are considered a gift and must be paid to the employee in full. What employers in some states are allowed to do is reduce the hourly wage. This is called a tip credit.

But here is where Amazon is testing the limits of the law. Under the FLSA, employers that practice tip credit must disclose the reduce wage rate that they pay.

This is not happening here in California, so I have been sheltered from this debate. What I cannot believe is that after nine (9) months this debate is still going on. Hasn't somebody by now gone the distance and taken Amazon to their state labor board and compel them to disclose their tip credit practices?


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## rozz

WMUber said:


> Actually, tips are considered a gift and must be paid to the employee in full. What employers in some states are allowed to do is reduce the hourly wage. This is called a tip credit.
> 
> But here is where Amazon is testing the limits of the law. Under the FLSA, employers that practice tip credit must disclose the reduce wage rate that they pay.
> 
> This is not happening here in California, so I have been sheltered from this debate. What I cannot believe is that after nine (9) months this debate is still going on. Hasn't somebody by now gone the distance and taken Amazon to their state labor board and compel them to disclose their tip credit practices?


Sooner or later they will be forced to disclose and be transparent if someone does complain to one of the state agencies. The problem is the public loves Amazon too much. Some are claiming the practice is happening here California despite the law, due to our being "independent contractors." There is not enough conclusive data as to whether Amazon is partaking in such practices here but I don't doubt it given Amazon's history of illegal creative accounting and being sheltered from such due to popular public opinion (see sales tax avoidance).


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## UsedToBeAPartner

Why is anyone tipping an Amazon driver? Do you tip the UPS guy, the mailman, the FedEx driver? What's going on?


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## surlywynch

Well for starters, the UPS/FedEx guys, and the mailman are using company vehicles and not paying any of the maintenance and up keep for those vehicles.


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## Chris1973

UsedToBeAPartner said:


> Why is anyone tipping an Amazon driver? Do you tip the UPS guy, the mailman, the FedEx driver? What's going on?


The driver is using all of their own resources to deliver, no difference whatsoever from pizza delivery. Dumb question. Are you serious?


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## rozz

DON'T FEED THE TROLL


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## soupergloo

I can’t tell without actually testing it, but i’ll have blocks like this where I had 10 stop route and made well over the regular tip amount, and then i’ll have nothing but 1-hours, and only make $1 in tips on every single 1-hour .. just doesn’t seem legit.

are they only doing it randomly?!


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## rozz

soupergloo said:


> I can't tell without actually testing it, but i'll have blocks like this where I had 10 stop route and made well over the regular tip amount, and then i'll have nothing but 1-hours, and only make $1 in tips on every single 1-hour .. just doesn't seem legit.
> 
> are they only doing it randomly?!


Perhaps random or only to one hours. I get that they're not making money on 1 hours. The solution is to bundle those one hours but the dispatchers are so braindead that such a task is beyond their comprehension. They also seem to throw single merchant pickups in randomly with no regard to their final dropoff destination.


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## soupergloo

rozz said:


> Perhaps random or only to one hours. I get that they're not making money on 1 hours. The solution is to bundle those one hours but the dispatchers are so braindead that such a task is beyond their comprehension. They also seem to throw single merchant pickups in randomly with no regard to their final dropoff destination.


that just leads me to believe that Amazon knows they're not supposed to be doing it. If it was legit & legal, they'd have no problem stealing tips equally across the board for every block.


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## dkcs

For California, the entire debate centers around our classification as independent contractors so the labor laws on the books in California do not apply to California Flex drivers until a court determines that we are indeed Amazon employee's and not independent contractors.

https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_tipsandgratuities.htm

If we are ever found to be classified as employees by a California court then the California labor laws under section 351 will apply to us making any withholding or application of the tip amount against or base rate pay illegal under section 351 of the California Labor code. Until then we all can just bend over or move on...


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## grams777

soupergloo said:


> I can't tell without actually testing it, but i'll have blocks like this where I had 10 stop route and made well over the regular tip amount, and then i'll have nothing but 1-hours, and only make $1 in tips on every single 1-hour .. just doesn't seem legit.
> 
> are they only doing it randomly?!


That's where it's easiest to detect that something is wrong based on the single stop, one hour blocks. For me, those always used to be around $23 ($18 plus default / recommended $5 tip) until all this started then wham, flat lined down to 18 nearly all the time. Only once went to $19 I think.

FYI, to this day I still see a $5 default / recommended tip on prime now. Isn't it interesting how we're supposed to believe that all the single stop, one hour deliveries now consistently zero this out or all set to it $1? That's a big stretch of the imagination.


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## sellkatsell44

So VBP is basically Amazon saying...you’re guaranteed x amount per hour and if you get tipped through the app and we know about it, we’ll decrease that base we pay because the tip will still place you at the guarantee x per hour.

So basically the customer would be supplementing your guarantee hourly wage with tips.

So basically you should ask the customer to tip you in cash.


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## rozz

For those who don't know, Amazon has a formula they use to calculate cost per order/driver. It used to be $9 per order but is lower now that they increased orders/stops per driver. The local warehouse overlords used to control such volume of stops/drivers via recommendation from software but that has since been outsourced. It makes sense that they would absorb tipped one hour orders to reduce cost per driver. From what I can tell they are managing CPD much better remotely now than when the locals were in charge.

I surmise that they will unchain some one hour orders and hand them out via instant offers to try and keep CPD down. They will have to depend on a new stock of drivers unaccustomed to blocked offers or desperate oldtimers willing to do them for a fraction of the former pay.


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## at-007smartLP

they start at $11 an hour the same $11 Roseanne was making at wellman plastics in 1989 & what i made outta high school in the early 90s

why are you suprized?

tips are outside payroll lmao just another tech company breaking laws they see you gotta a tip & dock your hourly pay cuz the customer added to it hahahaha hahahaha hahahaha geez when you think these companies cant operate any eviler here we are.... good thing pizza chains cant see tips im sure they would of tried this decades ago you got a $5 tip cool we only gonna pay you $1 for this hour bizzaro indeed


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## dkcs

rozz said:


> For those who don't know, Amazon has a formula they use to calculate cost per order/driver. It used to be $9 per order but is lower now that they increased orders/stops per driver. The local warehouse overlords used to control such volume of stops/drivers via recommendation from software but that has since been outsourced. It makes sense that they would absorb tipped one hour orders to reduce cost per driver. From what I can tell they are managing CPD much better remotely now than when the locals were in charge.
> 
> I surmise that they will unchain some one hour orders and hand them out via instant offers to try and keep CPD down. They will have to depend on a new stock of drivers unaccustomed to blocked offers or desperate oldtimers willing to do them for a fraction of the former pay.


I agree that once Amazon fine tunes instant offers these will be spread to warehouse offers. First of course will be 1 hour PN blocks and Sprouts/Whole Foods/super market stops. As it stands right now, with instant offers Amazon doesn't even state in the Flex app that they are restaurant offers and just generically calls them instant offers.

Amazon could easily throw the switch and offer PN blocks through instant offers. The entire goal of the instant offer program is to get the labor costs reduced for Amazon. There is nothing good for drivers to come out of this and I believe eventually Flex will just be another below minimum wage job that exploits undocumented immigrants for low priced labor. As the law stands now, independent contractors are not required to prove their immigration status and Amazon is not required by law to E-verify their immigration status.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/14/nation/la-na-ff-immigration-business-20130915


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## htboston

2Cents said:


> These #@$& Gig economies companies...
> Get away with it because... you're not an actual employee.


or because you guys still work despite them bending you guys over repeatedly. as long as they are still making money, they'll release statements saying they 'care' but still ramming you from behind hard


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## rozz

htboston said:


> or because you guys still work despite them bending you guys over repeatedly. as long as they are still making money, they'll release statements saying they 'care' but still ramming you from behind hard


Please make some sense before you start posting.


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## Fauxknight

sellkatsell44 said:


> So VBP is basically Amazon saying...you're guaranteed x amount per hour and if you get tipped through the app and we know about it, we'll decrease that base we pay because the tip will still place you at the guarantee x per hour.


I'm sure Amazon technically counts this as the opposite. They are paying you the lower amount by default and if you do not get enough tips they increase your pay up to the minimum amount.


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## htboston

rozz said:


> Please make some sense before you start posting.


it makes sense. you just gotta be smarter


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## rozz

htboston said:


> it makes sense. you just gotta be smarter


Says someone who can barely construct a sentence.


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## Uber's Guber

Jeff Bezoz is worth nearly $100 billion (ask Alexa if you don’t believe me). Bezoz couldn’t hope to be that rich if he was being fair and equitable with the workers who helped him get that rich.


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## Leo1983

Transporter316 said:


> Here was the first sign that we knew Amazon took some of our tips they don't give you a detail of what the customer has tipped you out like doordash. The second sign was that Amazon tells customers to tip in the app instead of giving them the option to tip in cash. So how did we find out? We have asked each customer on our route, "How much should you tip?" And when the total comes out in 2 days we saw a difference from what was paid out. You can do the same and then you can see the Amazon steals your tips! Tell customers to tip in cash.


The customers lie. Every answer you got take 40-50% off the top. If you even get tipped. 
Tipping is something that only works in person and on the spot. 
If you're doing any job where the tip is not upfront don't consider that any form of income. It will just be a few bucks here and there on the side. So basically 
Amazon door dash all
Those services are only good for the customer and shareholders. Everyone else is a replaceable worthless entities.


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## kmatt

Anyway we can keep bone headed opinion pieces from this thread who probably don't even flex? Read the whole thread before you post your two cents here. If you read the first page, there is screenshot documentation of what amazon does with customers tips and how they apply them to drivers.


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## Yam Digger

Transporter316 said:


> Here was the first sign that we knew Amazon took some of our tips they don't give you a detail of what the customer has tipped you out like doordash. The second sign was that Amazon tells customers to tip in the app instead of giving them the option to tip in cash. So how did we find out? We have asked each customer on our route, "How much should you tip?" And when the total comes out in 2 days we saw a difference from what was paid out. You can do the same and then you can see the Amazon steals your tips! Tell customers to tip in cash.


With Slime-Bag like Jeff Bezoz at the helm, what else can you expect?


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## melusine3

dkcs said:


> On the one instant order I delivered the other night I ended up with no tip. $8 to deliver 6 pizza's on an $80 order to a million dollar beach home and not a penny. I find that hard to believe. Pizza's were fresh, delivered early and stored in a pizza bag for the 5 minute drive from the restaurant.
> 
> I've seen a marked decrease in my tip amounts from 6 months ago. I believe Amazon is now allocating tips in California and are taking the position that the California law does not apply to us because we are employees.


It seems to me that Kalakanack's Uber NON TIPPING POLICY has bled over to other services. People feel quite comfortable with not tipping these days. The only way to be certain this is happening would be to do a controlled study.


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## rozz

kmatt said:


> Anyway we can keep bone headed opinion pieces from this thread who probably don't even flex? Read the whole thread before you post your two cents here. If you read the first page, there is screenshot documentation of what amazon does with customers tips and how they apply them to drivers.


A lot of nonFlexers think they're experts on the topic. Trollery and holier than thou spirit are alive and well here.


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## soupergloo

this is exactly what I mean .. I did two 1-hours on this block and made $1 in tips


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## DrivingForYou

grams777 said:


> It's a word game. You do get all of your tips. What they don't tell you is how much they lowered the base pay to which they add all of your tips.
> 
> It's a similar thing with restaurant hosts etc. They get around $3 per hour base pay plus their tips with a minimum wage hourly guarantee.


That depends on the state. In California servers get full minimum wage, then tips on top of that.

If Amazon delivery folks are independent contractors then of course minimum wage does not apply.


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## grams777

soupergloo said:


> this is exactly what I mean .. I did two 1-hours on this block and made $1 in tips


That's probably a $15-$16 per hour base on a $20 hourly rate. Here you can literally do a one hour per hour all day and never see any tips come through. On routes with a large number of stops it's harder to see what's going on. The tip for one stop per hour effectively goes to Amazon. Before the policy change last year, one hours were usually the hourly rate plus $5.


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## soupergloo

grams777 said:


> That's probably a $15-$16 per hour base on a $20 hourly rate. Here you can literally do a one hour per hour all day and never see any tips come through. On routes with a large number of stops it's harder to see what's going on. The tip for one stop per hour effectively goes to Amazon. Before the policy change last year, one hours were usually the hourly rate plus $5.


it's even more incentive to not do 1-hours, I'm like 90% confident they're stealing my money on 1-hours.

I haven't seen as much of a dramatic change in tips on my routes.


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## getawaycar

Never did Prime but telling customers to tip through the app sounds pretty shady.
No good reason for it unless they intend to steal the tip. Uber was sued for the same thing and was ordered to pay back all the tips they stole.


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## soupergloo

getawaycar said:


> Never did Prime but telling customers to tip through the app sounds pretty shady.
> No good reason for it unless they intend to steal the tip. Uber was sued for the same thing and was ordered to pay back all the tips they stole.


pretty sure it's Amazon's policy not to accept cash tips (or at least it used to be) .. probably because they can't steal it that way

i'm still waiting for my Lyft & Uber settlements .. Lyft's should be coming early this year.


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## getawaycar

Uber and Lyft execs should be put in prison. If someone steals an iPhone from the Apple store they would be arrested and thrown in jail with a felony mark on their record. But if you're caught stealing millions from your employees or contractors? All you have to do is pay it back with no criminal charges, no jail time. Which is why companies will keep doing it.


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## soupergloo

getawaycar said:


> Uber and Lyft execs should be put in prison. If someone steals an iPhone from the Apple store they would be arrested and thrown in jail with a felony mark on their record. But if you're caught stealing millions from your employees or contractors? All you have to do is pay it back with no criminal charges, no jail time. Which is why companies will keep doing it.


what's worse is all of Uber's money is basically profit, and that still wasn't enough for them. thankfully I stopped doing rideshare before they introduced tipping.


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## rozz

Cash tips are cumbersome and people would likely tip a lot less. The only reason Amazon customers tip decently is because of the recommendated default tip and it's shameful to go in and take it away (scrooge). I like the way it is now. Tipping is mostly psychological and the set up has a huge impact on our tips. Just my 2 cents (or $5 in Amazon's case) .


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## dkcs

Here's an odd one. I did a 2 hour block the other day and received $55 for the block but never made a single delivery! This was a warehouse/Sprouts block and there were no orders at Sprouts for the 2 hours they had me waiting there. I fully expected to get my normal $36 but not the tip!

Maybe the driver who suggested that Amazon is pooling tips is correct...

Bottom line, Amazon is screwy and plays games with our tips!


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## soupergloo

dkcs said:


> Here's an odd one. I did a 2 hour block the other day and received $55 for the block but never made a single delivery! This was a warehouse/Sprouts block and there were no orders at Sprouts for the 2 hours they had me waiting there. I fully expected to get my normal $36 but not the tip!
> 
> Maybe the driver who suggested that Amazon is pooling tips is correct...
> 
> Bottom line, Amazon is screwy and plays games with our tips!


hahaha same thing happened to my bf who made $2 on a block where he did no deliveries a couple weeks ago.


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## UberPasco

dkcs said:


> Here's an odd one. I did a 2 hour block the other day and received $55 for the block but never made a single delivery! This was a warehouse/Sprouts block and there were no orders at Sprouts for the 2 hours they had me waiting there. I fully expected to get my normal $36 but not the tip!
> 
> Maybe the driver who suggested that Amazon is pooling tips is correct...
> 
> Bottom line, Amazon is screwy and plays games with our tips!


They will sometimes adjust for a tip that didn't make the pay cutoff. They used to mark it "adjustment" but no longer.


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## rozz

Conspiracy theories abound.


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## soupergloo

UberPasco said:


> They used to mark it "adjustment" but no longer.


not true, I still get adjustments every week


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## dkcs

UberPasco said:


> They will sometimes adjust for a tip that didn't make the pay cutoff. They used to mark it "adjustment" but no longer.


This was definitely not an adjustment. There wasn't a block worked the two days proceeding this block and nothing is noted as an adjustment. Amazon plays with tips, there is not doubt about it.

I did a few blocks yesterday. The first block had 9 stops including a Sprouts pickup and I ended up with $11 in tips. The second 2 hours had 6 stops, half the packages and I ended up with $31 in tips. It doesn't make sense but that is the Amazon way.


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## Uberchampion

There seems to be a simple way of addressing this. Engage a lawyer. There seems to be more than enough if an upside here to get one to take the case on contingency. 

Class action this one up!


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## soupergloo

Uberchampion said:


> There seems to be a simple way of addressing this. Engage a lawyer. There seems to be more than enough if an upside here to get one to take the case on contingency.
> 
> Class action this one up!


I actually think i'm going to! I had a 7 stop route that I made $0 on over the weekend, which may or may not have been legitimate, but I think we have a right to know who's tipping & who isn't .. and if Amazon legitimately think it's OK to skim some of our tips, we also have a right to know it's happening. In California, we haven't heard anything about it.


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## rozz

soupergloo said:


> I actually think i'm going to! I had a 7 stop route that I made $0 on over the weekend, which may or may not have been legitimate, but I think we have a right to know who's tipping & who isn't .. and if Amazon legitimately think it's OK to skim some of our tips, we also have a right to know it's happening. In California, we haven't heard anything about it.


7 stops and not a single $? Were they attended or drop and go? I'm thinking maybe tips are allocated to the block that the order was assigned in and not delivered in. Just a hunch.


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## soupergloo

rozz said:


> 7 stops and not a single $? Were they attended or drop and go? I'm thinking maybe tips are allocated to the block that the order was assigned in and not delivered in. Just a hunch.


nope, and I thought I would get a tip adjustment, but that never came either.


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## grams777

soupergloo said:


> nope, and I thought I would get a tip adjustment, but that never came either.


One problem is they could even set the variable base pay to zero. So theoretically in a seven stop, two hour block, you could make $0 base and get tipped $35 (i.e. only working for tips). Then amazon chips in a few dollars or whatever is needed to get to your minimum hourly rate for the block. And it appears like you didn't get any tips; but, that wasn't necessarily the case.


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## rozz

grams777 said:


> One problem is they could even set the variable base pay to zero. So theoretically in a two hour block, you could make $0 base and get tipped $35 (i.e. only working for tips). Then amazon chips in a few dollars or whatever is needed to get to your minimum hourly rate for the block. And it appears like you didn't get any tips but that wasn't necessarily the case.


I'm more convinced day by day that they're stealing. From the email they sent you we can conclude that base bay is based on 1) Demand - how many stops, distance, difficulty/traffic and 2) Value of the orders - how much merchandise you're carrying in relation to the cost of selling and packing those items and how much they had to pay workers and merchants for said products. I am all in for a lawsuit if it actually brings benefits to us, that is, our pay remains competitive.

For instance, if you were to carry $1000+ worth of goods in your car, they would give you the full base pay plus tips. If it were just bare bones $35 per order then they lower your base pay but still let you keep your tips.


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## Flexist

I just experienced a drastic drop in earnings last week. I had multiple 2-hour blocks with 0 tips.

It seems the scumbag thieves are stealing nearly all tips now.


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## soupergloo

Flexist said:


> I just experienced a drastic drop in earnings last week. I had multiple 2-hour blocks with 0 tips.
> 
> It seems the scumbag thieves are stealing nearly all tips now.




I haven't had anymore $0 tip days since the last I posted, but I am _consistently _exactly $7.50 short in tips from every $50 block I complete. Those are the most obvious ones because they end in .50, which caught my attention.


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## rozz

Flexist said:


> I just experienced a drastic drop in earnings last week. I had multiple 2-hour blocks with 0 tips.
> 
> It seems the scumbag thieves are stealing nearly all tips now.





soupergloo said:


> I haven't had anymore $0 tip days since the last I posted, but I am _consistently _exactly $7.50 short in tips from every $50 block I complete. Those are the most obvious ones because they end in .50, which caught my attention.


They are probably using a tip-stealing randomizer so that we can't find their thievery pattern. A dollar here, a dollar there who knows.


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## soupergloo

rozz said:


> They are probably using a tip-stealing randomizer so that we can't find their thievery pattern. A dollar here, a dollar there who knows.


we may never know until a lawsuit comes to light. I'm still making really decent money out here, and I find ways to make that stolen money back from Amazon.


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## rozz

soupergloo said:


> we may never know until a lawsuit comes to light. I'm still making really decent money out here, and I find ways to make that stolen money back from Amazon.


Oh? We're not talking an eye for an eye are we? Perhaps there's a solution that rozz doesn't yet know about.


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## Bygosh

If you get stuck doing 1hrs you will get 0 tips, no matter how many you do. That's how it is here, every driver knows it.


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## soupergloo

Bygosh said:


> If you get stuck doing 1hrs you will get 0 tips, no matter how many you do. That's how it is here, every driver knows it.


I still get my tips from 1-hours, sometimes it's what it's supposed to be, sometimes it's $1 per stop.


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## dkcs

Come on folks, how do you think Jeff paid for his Super Bowl commercial Sunday? I mean, he's not gonna take $30 million out of his bank account. He might fall back to the second wealthiest man in the world. Jeff can't be number 2!


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## Amsoil Uber Connect

A drop in the bucket compared to a hundred billion.


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## REX HAVOC

Transporter316 said:


> Here was the first sign that we knew Amazon took some of our tips they don't give you a detail of what the customer has tipped you out like doordash. The second sign was that Amazon tells customers to tip in the app instead of giving them the option to tip in cash. So how did we find out? We have asked each customer on our route, "How much should you tip?" And when the total comes out in 2 days we saw a difference from what was paid out. You can do the same and then you can see the Amazon steals your tips! Tell customers to tip in cash.


This is not exactly the same as being tip through Amazon but it's similar. The Trump administration is trying to make tip pooling law for anyone who gets tips from their customers. This is just another way big business is being allowed to screw their employees.

https://www.epi.org/publication/emp...p-administrations-proposed-tip-stealing-rule/


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## dkcs

I wonder how much of the base rate does Amazon write off for labor expenses? So if Amazon allocates $10 of your tips towards your base pay do they still consider that they have paid you $18 in base pay or are they using the correct figure of $8? There is probably some creative accounting going on...


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## Bygosh

Republicans illegally blocking Garland and then the country (with some Russian help) electing Trump swung the Supreme Court to conservative. It's likely that class actions are done for and arbitration is here to stay, will find out this Summer.

Expect things to continue to get worse as Republicans only care about big business making more profits.


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## jester121

Yeah, compared with those Democrat CEOs that are in charge of 41 of the Fortune 50 companies. 

Nice try. No one in Washington DC gives a damn about you, or us.


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## Bygosh

jester121 said:


> Yeah, compared with those Democrat CEOs that are in charge of 41 of the Fortune 50 companies.
> 
> Nice try. No one in Washington DC gives a damn about you, or us.


This is the type of thinking that got us to where we are now. There is a huge difference between Republicans and Democrats. You just are not researching enough if you think they are the same. Most Americans don't have time to research and we end up here where people like yourself sort politics into one liners. Garland vs Gorsuch alone is an enormous difference in your daily life but its too much to ask for people to put in some #@$^$# work and research.


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## jester121

So your partisan drivel is more valid than anyone else's? Gotcha.


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## rozz

jester121 said:


> So your partisan drivel is more valid than anyone else's? Gotcha.


*GRABS POPCORN*


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## Bygosh

jester121 said:


> So your partisan drivel is more valid than anyone else's? Gotcha.


The supreme court interprets the laws of the country, please explain how conservative and liberal judges are "the same thing."

Please explain how Democrats and Republicans are the same in regards to Net Neutrality.

Please explain how Democrats and Republicans are the same in regards to Citizens United.

Please explain how Democrats and Republicans are the same in regards to Climate Change.

Please explain how Democrats and Republicans are the same in regards to Voting Rights.

Stop trolling and wake the #$#$ up.


----------



## observer

Any updates?

We have a reporter on this thread

https://uberpeople.net/threads/does-amazon-subsidize-guaranteed-pay-w-tips.309109/
asking questions on Amazon stealing tips.


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## oicu812

Buzzfeed writer is considered reporter?


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## observer

Los Angeles Times: Where does a tip to an Amazon driver go? In some cases, toward the driver's base pay.
https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-amazon-drivers-tips-20190207-story.html


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## The LAwnmower

This is a lot of talk about nothing. Amazon guarantee's we will make $18hr never less. That's it. Doesn't everyone here make $25-$40hr? That is more than fair and better than any other side gig. On those 1hr blocks if I deliver 1 package that cost the customer $15 bucks and Amazon pays me $18 bucks they still lose money even taking my tip. And $18 bucks for that 1 hour 1 delivery is fair even though I try to avoid those short blocks. Everyone has a price for their time. Yes, do I want more. We all do. But on a 2 hour block I am still getting paid more than fairly as are most of us.


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## oicu812

The LAwnmower said:


> This is a lot of talk about nothing. Amazon guarantee's we will make $18hr never less. That's it. Doesn't everyone here make $25-$40hr? That is more than fair and better than any other side gig. On those 1hr blocks if I deliver 1 package that cost the customer $15 bucks and Amazon pays me $18 bucks they still lose money even taking my tip. And $18 bucks for that 1 hour 1 delivery is fair even though I try to avoid those short blocks. Everyone has a price for their time. Yes, do I want more. We all do. But on a 2 hour block I am still getting paid more than fairly as are most of us.


Plenty of people aren't satisfied with what they're getting but they keep working the same gig and complaining about it.


----------



## observer

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-n...e-claims-withheld-tips-delivery-worke-rcna244


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## AllenChicago

icantdeliverhere said:


> Wasn't this confirmed a along time ago. A Driver in SF,CA got a 1Hr block and then ended up with a package going to their friends . they took photos and and very thing but they never received that tip.....I believe that how the was...


I delivered to my first lower-income area yesterday. West Side of Chicago. Dangerous area. 90% Black / 8% Hispanic. 9 stops/43 packages. $5 in Tips on top of the $37.50 2.5hour base pay. Worst day since starting Flex, just before Thanksgiving 2021.

What happens if I get that route again, and tell Amazon I'm not doing it, due to safety reasons? Maybe I should tell Amazon my concerns right now? Advice please.


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## Milse

Transporter316 said:


> Here was the first sign that we knew Amazon took some of our tips they don't give you a detail of what the customer has tipped you out like doordash. The second sign was that Amazon tells customers to tip in the app instead of giving them the option to tip in cash. So how did we find out? We have asked each customer on our route, "How much should you tip?" And when the total comes out in 2 days we saw a difference from what was paid out. You can do the same and then you can see the Amazon steals your tips! Tell customers to tip in cash.


I wouldn't doubt it for one second. I publish through Amazon and people all over the world have shown me copies of my book, bought on Amazon. Look at my sales reports, NOTHING. Worst scumbags ever.


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## Judge and Jury

Transporter316 said:


> 3 of us did this on a 4 hour shift, a customer has no reason to lie, sounds like you are trying to defend Amazon!! You need to prove they don't steal tips, not the other way around, what a shady company!
> 
> 
> 
> They don't steal the whole tip, just a percentage. Their are cases were customers wanted to tip they just closed out the ap to quick.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed!!


Customer has no reason to lie?

If you confronted me with the how much did you tip question, I would respond that I tipped twenty dollars.

Or,

I would scream at you to get the fk off my property and report you to the app company.

Chase you off with a shovel or a .38.


----------

