# Drivers are not sole proprietors (business operators)



## Nigel L

Uber drivers are not running a business as a sole proprietor.

Uber riders (the payer) pays Uber for every trip, not the drivers. Tax invoices issued to riders do not come from the drivers' businesses.

Drivers can not set their own prices (fares) and drivers do not collect payments from riders as would any business operator.

Drivers are actually Uber employees. Uber trip allocation algorithm decides when you work, how you work, who you pick up, how you do the work. You are an employee not an independent contractor.

Sham contracts have been used by Uber to deceive drivers and avoid GST.

Keep proper records of your time online. You maybe owed back wages unless you have been completing and submitting BAS.

It is tax fraud for Uber to be using drivers ABN and not their own for receiving GST inclusive payments from riders.


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## uber_driver

when you got money
you can get away with any shit


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## KenBruceHasGoneMad

Nigel L said:


> Uber drivers are not running a business as a sole proprietor.
> 
> Uber riders (the payer) pays Uber for every trip, not the drivers. Tax invoices issued to riders do not come from the drivers' businesses.
> 
> Drivers can not set their own prices (fares) and drivers do not collect payments from riders as would any business operator.
> 
> Drivers are actually Uber employees. Uber trip allocation algorithm decides when you work, how you work, who you pick up, how you do the work. You are an employee not an independent contractor.
> 
> Sham contracts have been used by Uber to deceive drivers and avoid GST.
> 
> Keep proper records of your time online. You maybe owed back wages unless you have been completing and submitting BAS.
> 
> It is tax fraud for Uber to be using drivers ABN and not their own for receiving GST inclusive payments from riders.


Rubbish.

You're a sole trader.
...

Please don't waste forum space with hopes.

DA, ABN, GST..
,A CAR ,A PHONE..

...all you need , to 
" be your own boss"

...


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## Nigel L

KenBruceHasGoneMad said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> You're a sole trader.
> ...
> 
> Please don't waste forum space with hopes.
> 
> DA, ABN, GST..
> ,A CAR ,A PHONE..
> 
> ...all you need , to
> " be your own boss"
> 
> ...


Yes. It is rubbish. It is certainly rubbish that riders pay the drivers.


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## KenBruceHasGoneMad

My rider's receipts have my ABN on it..
and the money in my bank came from the rider, via the uber app, which I use, like gocatch as well, to make money.

What's your point?.

Don't wanna pay tax or something?.

Then don't.

Just drive ,buddy.


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## EyesWIDEopen

Nigel L said:


> Uber drivers are not running a business as a sole proprietor.
> 
> Uber riders (the payer) pays Uber for every trip, not the drivers. Tax invoices issued to riders do not come from the drivers' businesses.
> 
> Drivers can not set their own prices (fares) and drivers do not collect payments from riders as would any business operator.
> 
> Drivers are actually Uber employees. Uber trip allocation algorithm decides when you work, how you work, who you pick up, how you do
> the work. You are an employee not an independent contractor.
> 
> Sham contracts have been used by Uber to deceive drivers and avoid GST.
> 
> Keep proper records of your time online. You may be owed back wages.


Very true Nigel...
There is a lot of legal jargon involved in the contract we signed with uber...
It's imperative that us drivers know the legalities of what we have signed... 
We have not signed anything with the ATO, GOVERNMENT OR ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS...

We should be sending the state government a bill for all the damage potholes, speed humps, and excessive stoplights are doing to our privately owned cars which apply for a permit to use government roads called registration...

I could talk on these subjects for hours and hours but there's a time and a place for that...

Anyway, here's a little tip, never pay for a toll on a privately owned toll way...
I haven't for over 5 years... 
They have no power to enforce this...

Remember... Thinking for yourself is the new BLACK...!!!


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## Earn2burn

You blokes really don't know what's going on in the world do you ?

NFI.....

All over the world, slowly but surely the courts are ruling that Uber drivers are employees not contractors.... Yet you blokes are driving with blinkers on.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/nypos...d-be-legal-employees-with-benefits-judge/amp/



Nigel L said:


> Uber drivers are not running a business as a sole proprietor.
> 
> Uber riders (the payer) pays Uber for every trip, not the drivers. Tax invoices issued to riders do not come from the drivers' businesses.
> 
> Drivers can not set their own prices (fares) and drivers do not collect payments from riders as would any business operator.
> 
> Drivers are actually Uber employees. Uber trip allocation algorithm decides when you work, how you work, who you pick up, how you do the work. You are an employee not an independent contractor.
> 
> Sham contracts have been used by Uber to deceive drivers and avoid GST.
> 
> Keep proper records of your time online. You maybe owed back wages unless you have been completing and submitting BAS.
> 
> It is tax fraud for Uber to be using drivers ABN and not their own for receiving GST inclusive payments from riders.


https://www.google.com.au/amp/nypos...d-be-legal-employees-with-benefits-judge/amp/


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## KenBruceHasGoneMad

Earn2burn said:


> You blokes really don't know what's going on in the world do you ?
> 
> NFI.....
> 
> All over the world, slowly but surely the courts are ruling that Uber drivers are employees not contractors.... Yet you blokes are driving with blinkers on.
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/amp/nypos...d-be-legal-employees-with-benefits-judge/amp/
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/amp/nypos...d-be-legal-employees-with-benefits-judge/amp/


I don't wanna be an uber employee
Lol.

Geez, 95% of current drivers wouldn't get hired, 
If it was true employment..

Which its not.

Show me an uber payslip...
From anywhere in the world.

With all the bells and whistles.

I'll wait.


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## UberDriverAU

KenBruceHasGoneMad said:


> Show me an uber payslip...
> From anywhere in the world


Receiving payslips isn't what makes someone an employee, it's the totality of the relationship that does according to our courts. And the totality of the relationship doesn't paint the same picture that Uber would like us all to see. I don't expect someone who's gone COMPLETELY MAD to apply any sort of logic, legal principle or precedent to a topic such as this.


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## MyRedUber

Nigel L said:


> Uber drivers are not running a business as a sole proprietor.
> 
> Uber riders (the payer) pays Uber for every trip, not the drivers. Tax invoices issued to riders do not come from the drivers' businesses.
> 
> Drivers can not set their own prices (fares) and drivers do not collect payments from riders as would any business operator.
> 
> Drivers are actually Uber employees. Uber trip allocation algorithm decides when you work, how you work, who you pick up, how you do the work. You are an employee not an independent contractor.
> 
> Sham contracts have been used by Uber to deceive drivers and avoid GST.
> 
> Keep proper records of your time online. You maybe owed back wages unless you have been completing and submitting BAS.
> 
> It is tax fraud for Uber to be using drivers ABN and not their own for receiving GST inclusive payments from riders.


Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
You are a Sole Trader. You have an ABN. You are registered for GST.
Uber do not issue Tax Invoices, they issue receipts. If your customer asks you for a Tax Invoice, you have to provide one. I carry Tax Invoice blanks in my car and will write one up if asked.
As far as Tax law is concerned, Uber are acting as a payment service, not unlike PayPal, Visa, etc. The driver is the one receiving the payment from the customer. The fact that the payment goes via Uber is irrelevant.


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## DH_uber

MyRedUber said:


> Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
> You are a Sole Trader. You have an ABN. You are registered for GST.
> Uber do not issue Tax Invoices, they issue receipts. If your customer asks you for a Tax Invoice, you have to provide one. I carry Tax Invoice blanks in my car and will write one up if asked.
> As far as Tax law is concerned, Uber are acting as a payment service, not unlike PayPal, Visa, etc. The driver is the one receiving the payment from the customer. The fact that the payment goes via Uber is irrelevant.


Right, Right, Right. A number of jurisdictions have already ruled that Uber drivers are employees.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> You have an ABN. You are registered for GST.
> Uber do not issue Tax Invoices, they issue receipts.


Our courts say this doesn't determine the issue and can be a consequence of how the party with greater bargaining power chooses to characterise the relationship. In many court cases these types of facts have been disregarded and the workers have been found to be employees.


MyRedUber said:


> As far as Tax law is concerned, Uber are acting as a payment service, not unlike PayPal, Visa, etc.


Uber is nothing like PayPal, etc. These payment services don't dictate what prices your customers pay, don't control how your business operates, don't unilaterally refund customers without consulting you, and won't pay you if your customer hasn't been charged/lacks funds.


MyRedUber said:


> The driver is the one receiving the payment from the customer. The fact that the payment goes via Uber is irrelevant.


The money flows from rider to Uber. Noone can deny that this happens. Whether or not this should be treated as an agency arrangement is intimately tied in with the question of whether or not drivers are employees. Drivers are far from being truly _independent_ contractors. There are too many things that we are not allowed to do that Uber explicitly controls.


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## MyRedUber

OK. Start behaving like an employee in regard to GST, Income Tax, etc. See how you go.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> OK. Start behaving like an employee in regard to GST, Income Tax, etc. See how you go.


We are required to comply with ATO guidance on their interpretation of the law, even if their interpretation is wrong. The ATO has lost many tax cases, so clearly their interpretation of the law isn't always right. They will change their tune if drivers are found by a court to be employees. If they're wrong, then obviously we get paid back any taxes that we shouldn't have paid. We would have paid income tax anyway, so that means payback of GST.


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## MyRedUber

UberDriverAU said:


> If they're wrong, then obviously we get paid back any taxes that we shouldn't have paid. We would have paid income tax anyway, so that means payback of GST.


Wrong again. The customer pays GST, not the driver and not Uber.
GST has always been a tax on the final retail customer. In this case that's the passenger.
We are obliged by Australian law to collect it from the customer on behalf of the ATO.
No-one will be refunded GST.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> Wrong again. The customer pays GST, not the driver and not Uber.
> GST has always been a tax on the final retail customer. In this case that's the passenger.
> We are obliged by Australian law to collect it from the customer on behalf of the ATO.


You are entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't agree with the view of the High Court on this issue. And that is the GST is passed on to customers by a business. The High Court's opinion trumps yours. No GST has been paid until the business that is liable for it pays the ATO.


MyRedUber said:


> No-one will be refunded GST.


Drivers would be refunded and Uber would have to pay instead in the event that we are found to be employees.


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## Where to Mister?

UberDriverAU said:


> it doesn't agree with the view of the High Court on this issue.


Please point me to this High Court decision, I would be interested in reading the ruling and the context.


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## UberDriverAU

Where to Mister? said:


> Please point me to this High Court decision, I would be interested in reading the ruling and the context.


The case was decided in 2012 and was between Qantas and the Commissioner of Taxation (ie. the ATO) regarding whether GST was payable on fares that had been forfeited. Qantas argued that no supply had been made where the passenger hadn't flown, and therefore no GST was payable. The High Court disagreed, overturning the Full Court of the Federal Court's decision.

Knock yourself out:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2012/41.html



http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2012/41.html said:


> 6. The fares were calculated to recover from the customer the GST payable on the amount of those fares. On payment of the fare the GST amount was recorded by the airline as a debt due to the Commissioner; the balance was credited to unearned income until the flight was taken or the fare was forfeited.


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## MyRedUber

It matters not how you misinterpret rulings of the High Court to a different situation.
If ever Uber drivers become employees, the GST that has been collected from the passengers and passed on to the ATO will not be refunded to the drivers. In the extremely unlikely event that some GST refund were to occur, it would be to the customer, but that will never, never, never happen.

This dead horse has been flogged so many times in this forum. Please grant yourself some peace and stop believing in your own wishful thinking in relation to the tax law. You are not going to get any GST back. It would be illegal for you to retain GST for yourself.


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## MyRedUber

The only possible change at some time in the future is that companies such as Uber, GoCatch, etc, will be required to collect the GST and pass it on to the ATO. If that happens, the driver won't see the money; the driver's payout will be reduced by an amount equal to the GST.

The fundamental design of the Goods and Services Tax has always been that it is a tax on the final retail transaction. It is not a tax on the business, and it's not a tax on the customer. In the current contractual relationships, the final retail transaction is between the passenger and the driver, regardless of the fact that the customer's payment passes through a couple of other hands before it gets to the driver, starting with Visa or Mastercard, then the bank, then Uber, then the driver's bank, etc...


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> This dead horse has been flogged so many times in this forum. Please grant yourself some peace and stop believing in your own wishful thinking in relation to the tax law. You are not going to get any GST back. It would be illegal for you to retain GST for yourself.


Indeed it has, and yet you still refuse to acknowledge the very simple wording of the legislation and very simple wording of the High Court on this matter.


http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/consol_act/antsasta1999402/s9.40.html said:


> *Subdivision 9-B--Who is liable for GST on taxable supplies
> A NEW TAX SYSTEM (GOODS AND SERVICES TAX) ACT 1999 - SECT 9.40
> Liability for GST on taxable supplies*
> You must pay the GST payable on any * taxable supply that you make.


Very clearly, the person that makes the taxable supply is the person who must pay the GST. You can argue all that you like, but this is what the law very plainly and very clearly says. You can make an argument about who bears the economic burden of the GST, but you cannot argue who pays the GST.


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## MyRedUber

No matter what happens, you will never, never, never get back that GST which you have already collected from your customers and passed on to the ATO. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. GET THAT FORLORN HOPE OUT OF YOUR HEAD.
And if Uber and GoCatch become responsible for GST in future, driver's payout will be reduced. FACT.
YOU WILL NEVER GET TO KEEP GST FOR YOURSELF. NEVER.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> No matter what happens, you will never, never, never get back that GST which you have already collected from your customers and passed on to the ATO. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. GET THAT FORLORN HOPE OUT OF YOUR HEAD.
> And if Uber and GoCatch become responsible for GST in future, driver's payout will be reduced. FACT.
> YOU WILL NEVER GET TO KEEP GST FOR YOURSELF. NEVER.


It's interesting that section 142.25 of the GST act is about how to ascertain whether or not GST has been "passed on". You are entitled to a refund of excess GST if you have not "passed on" the GST. Section 142 of the act was brought in as a result of KAP Motors Pty Ltd v Commissioner of Taxation [2008] FCA 159. In this case, KAP Motors had overpaid GST because they had mistakenly treated some supplies as taxable supplies. The court ruled that KAP be repaid the excess GST and was not required to repay their customers.


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## MyRedUber

You're not going to get your hands on any GST money.
Give it a rest.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> You're not going to get your hands on any GST money.
> Give it a rest.


Your position has been thoroughly rebutted. GST is passed on to consumers. That is recognised by both our courts and explicitly in the legislation. Your NEVER EVER presumption has already happened, and the amended law explicitly allows for it to happen again in certain circumstances, such as the wrong entity paying the GST.


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## MyRedUber

You've rebutted nothing.
You will never see that money in your bank account, regardless of any future Tax Office Rulings, High Court decisions or changes to legislation or regulations. The only possible change in the future will be that the Booking Service Provider (Uber, GoCatch, etc.) will be the entity required to remit the GST to the ATO.
The matters to which you've referred relate to non-supply, totally unrelated.

You will never see that money back in your hands. It was never your money at any time.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> You've rebutted nothing.
> You will never see that money in your bank account, regardless of any future Tax Office Rulings, High Court decisions or changes to legislation or regulations. The only possible change in the future will be that the Booking Service Provider (Uber, GoCatch, etc.) will be the entity required to remit the GST to the ATO.
> The matters to which you've referred relate to non-supply, totally unrelated.


You are simply showing your ignorance of the legal system. If what you are saying is true, then the High Court would not have ruled in KAP Motors favour, and the amendments made in 2014 would not have been required. According to the legislation, a tax invoice is prima facie evidence that GST is "passed on" to customers. You can live in denial all that you want, but that doesn't change reality:



http://www6.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/antsasta1999402/s142.25.html said:


> *A NEW TAX SYSTEM (GOODS AND SERVICES TAX) ACT 1999 - SECT 142.25
> Working out if GST has been passed on*
> (1) Some or all of an amount of GST may have been *passed on *to another entity even if:
> 
> (a) a * tax invoice is not issued to or by that other entity; or
> 
> (b) a tax invoice issued to or by that other entity relates to that GST, but does not contain enough information to enable that GST to be clearly ascertained.
> 
> (2) If:
> 
> (a) you issue a * tax invoice or a notice under section 84-89 to another entity, or another entity issues a * recipient created tax invoice to you; and
> 
> (b) the invoice or notice contains enough information to enable some or all of an amount of GST to be clearly ascertained; and
> 
> (c) in a case where you must pay the * assessed net amount for a tax period to which the invoice or notice relates--you have paid that assessed net amount to the Commissioner;
> 
> the invoice or notice is prima facie evidence of that part of that GST having * passed on to that other entity.
> 
> Note: The special rules in this Part mainly modify the operation of Part 2-5, but they may affect other Parts of Chapter 2 in minor ways.





MyRedUber said:


> You will never see that money back in your hands. It was never your money at any time.


If a court finds that we are employees, then we will get our money back. Our courts don't require people to pay the debts of others, and will generally order that any money which has been mistakenly paid be refunded.


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## MyRedUber

UberDriverAU said:


> If a court finds that we are employees, then we will get our money back. Our courts don't require people to pay the debts of others, and will generally order that any money which has been mistakenly paid be refunded.


Rubbish. If at some time in the future a court finds that we are/were employees, the GST collected by the ATO, by whatever means, still belongs to the ATO. It won't be refunded. And it certainly would not be refunded to the employee.

Give up this forlorn hope that you're going to get a big windfall from the ATO in refunded GST from the last two years. It's not going to happen.
It was never your money. It always was and always will be the ATO's money.

In the event that Uber and GoCatch are at some time in the future required to collect and remit GST, that just means that drivers' payouts will be reduced by that same amount.

I can't believe there are still drivers hanging on to an expectation of a large payout from the ATO. I hope you're not taking out a mortgage or a loan for a new car based on your expectation of a big payout from the ATO, cause it aint gonna happen.

You remind me of Malcolm Roberts' claim to the High Court that he always thought that he was British Australian. 
You should go and argue your case, then come back and tell us what the Court thought of it.


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## UberDriverAU

It would ultimately be a windfall at Uber's expense, not the ATO. The ATO would be no worse off because Uber would be required to take on the GST liability in our place. The net effect is a transfer of money from Uber to drivers, but the ATO is required to be in the middle because of the legal requirements of our tax laws. If someone pays tax that they are not liable for, the ATO is obligated to refund it, as the KAP Motors case clearly demonstrates.


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## Where to Mister?

Stop feeding the troll.


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## MyRedUber

UberDriverAU said:


> It would ultimately be a windfall at Uber's expense, not the ATO.


You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm out.


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## Icecool

Nigel L said:


> Uber drivers are not running a business as a sole proprietor.
> 
> Uber riders (the payer) pays Uber for every trip, not the drivers. Tax invoices issued to riders do not come from the drivers' businesses.
> 
> Drivers can not set their own prices (fares) and drivers do not collect payments from riders as would any business operator.
> 
> Drivers are actually Uber employees. Uber trip allocation algorithm decides when you work, how you work, who you pick up, how you do the work. You are an employee not an independent contractor.
> 
> Sham contracts have been used by Uber to deceive drivers and avoid GST.
> 
> Keep proper records of your time online. You maybe owed back wages unless you have been completing and submitting BAS.
> 
> It is tax fraud for Uber to be using drivers ABN and not their own for receiving GST inclusive payments from riders.


If you log in you uber account . You'll find that the tax invoice is you the driver charging the rider with your abn number . And you paid uber a service fees like a franchise fees . Uber is a foreign company they not require to pay Australian tax and gst


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
> I'm out.


I'm the only one here citing legislation and decided cases that supports my argument. It is fairly clear who has no idea what they're talking about.


Where to Mister? said:


> Stop feeding the troll.


Some here genuinely believe this type of nonsense and clearly don't understand the nature of indirect taxes. They are _indirect_ because the person that pays them isn't necessarily the person that bears the burden of the tax. They try to argue that they are direct taxes, but can never support their argument with legislation or court decisions.


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## MyRedUber

UberDriverAU said:


> I'm the only one here citing legislation and decided cases that supports my argument.


Citing legislation and/or court decisions which you're trying to incorrectly apply to a wishful situation is not supporting your argument.


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## Paul Collins

Nigel L said:


> Yes. It is rubbish. It is certainly rubbish that riders pay the drivers.


Like customers pay Australia Post and a contractor makes the delivery?


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## huxtee

https://theconversation.com/tax-bas...et-and-jump-in-foreign-contract-workers-84589

Interesting article, just like Uber a lot of local Australian companies are shifting from employees to contractors as they can pay under the award, no super, etc. Also contractors don't have a portion of their earnings compulsory witholded for tax like workers. This allows many visa holders to get away with paying zero tax, as the ATO will just write off their tax debt if they return home.


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## george manousaridis

MyRedUber said:


> The only possible change at some time in the future is that companies such as Uber, GoCatch, etc, will be required to collect the GST and pass it on to the ATO. If that happens, the driver won't see the money; the driver's payout will be reduced by an amount equal to the GST.
> 
> The fundamental design of the Goods and Services Tax has always been that it is a tax on the final retail transaction. It is not a tax on the business, and it's not a tax on the customer. In the current contractual relationships, the final retail transaction is between the passenger and the driver, regardless of the fact that the customer's payment passes through a couple of other hands before it gets to the driver, starting with Visa or Mastercard, then the bank, then Uber, then the driver's bank, etc...


Then who owns the money?still they are taxing the rider and driver,no difference,just to blind in twisted wording



Nigel L said:


> Uber drivers are not running a business as a sole proprietor.
> 
> Uber riders (the payer) pays Uber for every trip, not the drivers. Tax invoices issued to riders do not come from the drivers' businesses.
> 
> Drivers can not set their own prices (fares) and drivers do not collect payments from riders as would any business operator.
> 
> Drivers are actually Uber employees. Uber trip allocation algorithm decides when you work, how you work, who you pick up, how you do the work. You are an employee not an independent contractor.
> 
> Sham contracts have been used by Uber to deceive drivers and avoid GST.
> 
> Keep proper records of your time online. You maybe owed back wages unless you have been completing and submitting BAS.
> 
> It is tax fraud for Uber to be using drivers ABN and not their own for receiving GST inclusive payments from riders.


Uber is another way to Collect!or Collector!


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Like customers pay Australia Post and a contractor makes the delivery?


Such contractors have to report what the customer paid as their income? I doubt it.


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## Bandy

UberDriverAU said:


> Such contractors have to report what the customer paid as their income? I doubt it.


Chalk and cheese, Paul Collins is grasping at straws.
Australia Post pay their own GST as well.
He will probably delete his post. He's done a lot of that lately, trying to hide his shortcomings...


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## DH_uber

MyRedUber said:


> Citing legislation and/or court decisions which you're trying to incorrectly apply to a wishful situation is not supporting your argument.


So what are you using to support your vacuous argument ? I think UberDriverAU's reasoning has a lot more merit than your unsubstantiated ramblings.


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## MyRedUber

DH_uber said:


> So what are you using to support your vacuous argument ? I think UberDriverAU's reasoning has a lot more merit than your unsubstantiated ramblings.


Read all of the relevant legislation and rulings, not just cite one or two sentences cherry-picked and mis-interpreted to suit your wishful thinking.
Also have a look at how GST is applied over the whole chain of transactions from factory, to manufacturer, to wholesaler, to retailer, to business user, to final end user.
GST is and always has been a tax on the final retail transaction, not on the customer and not of the retailer. But it's always been the responsibility of the retailer to collect that tax and remit it to the ATO.
That money was always for the ATO; it was never money belonging to the retailer.

The only possible change at some time in the future is that drivers will be classified as employees of some type, not as independent contractors. If that happens, the responsibility for collecting and remitting GST will pass to the likes of Uber, GoCatch, etc. If that happens, the payout to drivers will be reduced by the amount of GST, because we're no longer required to collect GST on behalf of the ATO.

People in this forum thinking that if/when they're reclassified as an employee are in for a windfall from the ATO are just fantasizing.

UberDriverAU's "reasoning" would be laughed out of court, not unlike "Senator" Roberts was this week.


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## Icecool

UberDriverAU said:


> Such contractors have to report what the customer paid as their income? I doubt it.


What are you on about .?? Report to who the government.


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## DH_uber

MyRedUber said:


> People in this forum thinking that if/when they're reclassified as an employee are in for a windfall from the ATO are just fantasizing.


I'm not hoping for any such windfall, I just want this immoral scumbag company to be booted out of Australia and every other country for that matter.


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## Icecool

DH_uber said:


> I'm not hoping for any such windfall, I just want this immoral scumbag company to be booted out of Australia and every other country for that matter.


Ha ha now that a wishful thinking . You have a a better chance of winning the lotto than this happening .


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## MyRedUber

DH_uber said:


> I'm not hoping for any such windfall, I just want this immoral scumbag company to be booted out of Australia and every other country for that matter.


I'm no fan of Uber, and I'm well aware of how they operate and how they use drivers. But there are many far more scumbag companies operating in Australia that do far worse than Uber ever has, but that don't attract your ire. Why?
Do you still drive for Uber? Yes, you said you did? Why?
Do you still use Uber as a passenger?
Not exactly as committed to your scruples then?


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## DH_uber

Icecool said:


> Ha ha now that a wishful thinking . You have a a better chance of winning the lotto than this happening .


It's already happened in some countries , others to follow suit.


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## MyRedUber

DH_uber said:


> So what are you using to support your vacuous argument ?


You appear to not even understand your own insult.
The fallacious logic of your insult escapes you.
Mine is not a "vacuous argument".


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## DH_uber

MyRedUber said:


> I'm no fan of Uber, and I'm well aware of how they operate and how they use drivers. But there are many far more scumbag companies operating in Australia that do far worse than Uber ever has, but that don't attract your ire. Why?
> Do you still drive for Uber? Yes, you said you did? Why?
> Do you still use Uber as a passenger?
> Not exactly as committed to your scruples then?


I can assure you as soon as Uber are booted out I will drive for another ride share company. Until then , no other ride share company is able to effectively enter the market because of Uber's unfair predatory pricing tactics. You can tell your masters they will be investigated by the ACCC soon.



MyRedUber said:


> Mine is not a "vacuous argument".


Let's just call it drivel then if it makes you happier.


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## MyRedUber

DH_uber said:


> as soon as Uber are booted out I will drive for another ride share company


That you continue to drive for Uber tells me that your ethics are hollow.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> Mine is not a "vacuous argument".


Your argument is vacuous because you offer nothing to refute an opposing argument besides "NO THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN, DON'T GET YOUR HOPES UP".

The piece of legislation that establishes who must pay GST is *one* easy to read sentence. It doesn't mention customers at all and very plainly says that suppliers are liable for GST, yet somehow we should believe that this law says that customers pay GST.

Next up we have the KAP Motors decision where the High Court ruled that KAP didn't owe any GST and ordered the ATO to repay the money they had wrongly received. Apparently that could never happen and it's wishful thinking that something like this could happen.

Next up we have the 2014 amendments to the GST law that establishes a framework for the *refund of excess GST* and how to figure out if GST is "passed on". According to your argument, an amendment such as this is a complete waste of time because once you've made a payment to the ATO it gets sucked into a black hole and can never come out again.

It should be evident to any rational person that the correct starting point for working out who actually pays the GST is text of the legislation, not some preconceived idea about who pays it. Clamping your hands over your ears and screaming "LA, LA, LA, I'M NOT LISTENING!" isn't a solid basis for any argument.


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## MyRedUber

You're not getting any money back.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> You're not getting any money back.


Whether we end up getting anything back is irrelevant. It's possible that we will if the circumstances are right. Both the legislation and case law support this argument, not yours. Find any GST case where the case was thrown out on the basis that the supplier doesn't pay GST. You won't find one, and the ATO never uses such an argument in any GST case.


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## MyRedUber

You're not getting any money back.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> You're not getting any money back.


Yep, it's the same vacuous argument over and over again. Perhaps try something different?


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## Where to Mister?

It’s my understanding that everyone in the supply chain pays GST.
A retailer charges the customer GST on their sales, claims an input credit on the purchases from their suppliers, then pays the difference to the ATO.


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## UberDriverAU

Where to Mister? said:


> It's my understanding that everyone in the supply chain pays GST.
> A retailer charges the customer GST on their sales, claims an input credit on the purchases from their suppliers, then pays the difference to the ATO.


Supposedly GST:


MyRedUber said:


> is and always has been a tax on the final retail transaction


By this definition, would that not mean that business to business transactions must be GST free, because it's only a tax on the final retail transaction? Obviously that doesn't accord with reality, because businesses all the way up the supply chain make payments of GST to the ATO.


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## MyRedUber

UberDriverAU said:


> Supposedly GST:
> 
> By this definition, would that not mean that business to business transactions must be GST free, because it's only a tax on the final retail transaction? Obviously that doesn't accord with reality, because businesses all the way up the supply chain make payments of GST to the ATO.


FFS! Try to keep up.
GST is applied to all transactions and claimed back when the product or service is onsold at each. The design of the whole system is that GST will end up on the final retail transaction because the final retail customer will not be onsellng the product or service, hence no GST credit.


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## UberDriverAU

MyRedUber said:


> FFS! Try to keep up.
> GST is applied to all transactions and claimed back when the product or service is onsold at each. The design of the whole system is that GST will end up on the final retail transaction because the final retail customer will not be onsellng the product or service, hence no GST credit.


So you are finally acknowledging that it is only suppliers that ever make GST payments to the ATO, and that the final customer never does? Perhaps we are getting somewhere in your education.


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## DH_uber

UberDriverAU said:


> Perhaps we are getting somewhere in your education.


It's a slow process with someone as vacuous.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> So you are finally acknowledging that it is only suppliers that ever make GST payments to the ATO, and that the final customer never does? Perhaps we are getting somewhere in your education.


dear me. The final customers gets a gst invoice and they pay they gst to the final retailer who then remits it to the ato.


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