# Seattle might try something crazy to let Uber drivers unionize



## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...something-crazy-to-let-uber-drivers-unionize/


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## UberNorthStar (Jul 7, 2015)

I _told _a fellow Uber driver the Teamsters could represent us! <Snoopy Dance>


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

*Mike O'Brien takes a stand against Uber*
*http://crosscut.com/2015/08/mike-obrien-takes-a-stand-against-uber/*

_O'Brien made his announcement Monday at City Hall, flanked by a cast of drivers, many of whom quit low-paying jobs to drive for Uber. He told the story of a man left behind a minimum wage job, only to find himself earning even less as a driver. "It was not a story of increased income and opportunity, but the opposite" said O'Brien. "After filing his tax return, he found he was making around $3 an hour."_

_One after another, the drivers told stories of making far less than they'd expected, thanks mostly to the costs of purchasing a car, maintenance, insurance and taxes. "The owners of the company have taken advantage of the drivers," said one driver named Faseel. "It's not fair."_

_Uber's model of ridesharing may be innovative, O'Brien said, but there's nothing innovative about building an economy on the backs of workers._

_Uber representatives would not comment directly on the ordinance O'Brien plans to introduce next week, saying that they had not had a chance to review it. "Uber is an important contributor to the local economy in Seattle, helping to create new opportunities for many people to earn a better living," said an Uber spokesperson in an e-mail._


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Really? You'd trade one heavy handed thug for another? Just because they say they are on your side?


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

JimS said:


> Really? You'd trade one heavy handed thug for another? Just because they say they are on your side?


Says the guy who drives in Savannah GA, with these UberX Rates:


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Tru dat.

So what do you get when a market like Seattle goes back up to the rates I have here? You get twice as many drivers and 1/2 as many pings. Don't see what any union can do for folks at this point.

I'm not getting rich in Savannah, I can tell you that. I'm having a hard time justifying it. Demand is real low. People here are driving $40,000 cars on UberX - many living on retirement.

Then, when "employment" status is granted over IC status, you'll really see the rules and regulations change. You'll see MORE taken out for overhead. Costs will skyrocket as $14k insurance policies become compulsory.

I'm not against unions, but be careful what you ask for - you might just get it. I seen unions do great things. I've also seen them destroy corporations.


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## Lack9133 (Mar 26, 2015)

JimS said:


> Tru dat.
> 
> So what do you get when a market like Seattle goes back up to the rates I have here? You get twice as many drivers and 1/2 as many pings. Don't see what any union can do for folks at this point.
> 
> ...


Rules and regulations are going to evolve no matter what employment status is granted to Uber drivers or Union gets in the way. I think those Unions could help drivers tremendously especially if they could lock in rates and limit how many drivers go on the road.


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## UberNorthStar (Jul 7, 2015)

While speaking to a union rep in Seattle, I was told the rate for X drivers has gone from $1.10 to currently $2.35.

Can anyone verify?


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Lack9133 said:


> Rules and regulations are going to evolve no matter what employment status is granted to Uber drivers or Union gets in the way. I think those Unions could help drivers tremendously especially if they could lock in rates and limit how many drivers go on the road.


Ok. Great. Who gets limited? Is that free market? How do you go about that fairly? Isn't that how medallion cabs and the mafia got control? Like I said, you trade one thug for another.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

UberNorthStar said:


> While speaking to a union rep in Seattle, I was told the rate for X drivers has gone from $1.10 to currently $2.35.
> 
> Can anyone verify?


Nope.


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## Gemgirlla (Oct 16, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...something-crazy-to-let-uber-drivers-unionize/


I think it's time that drivers time to find someway to collectively bargain. Clearly, the regulators are bought by Uber. Chances of drivers getting any real protection are very slim and won't come for a long time... even if the courts rule for the drivers in the various driver lawsuits.

From the Article:

"Pekle says he ended up making less money as more drivers joined Uber's network. Now, he drives a few hours a week and does sales on the side, which helps him make payments on the Uber-compliant car he bought. With the cost of gas, insurance, and Uber's cut of the proceeds, 'you are not making anything,' he says. 'It's like minimum wage.'"
Pekle has joined Washington's App-Based Drivers Association, which contracts with the Teamsters to advocate for the drivers' interests. It's better than nothing, he thinks, but drivers are still at the whim of Uber's decisions. That's why Seattle City Councilmember Mike O'Brien concluded that allowing drivers to bargain with the companies themselves might work better than depending on regulation to improve working conditions."

"'The reality in an industry that's evolving rapidly is that as a regulatory body we're not going to keep up,' O'Brien says. 'And there's so much more power in allowing the workers to decide by themselves through collective bargaining, these are the terms under which they want to work. Here's how the new system , which will be formally introduced in the Council next week, would work: Drivers would vote on a non-profit organization to serve as their 'exclusive driver representative,' which would then negotiate a contract with the company. If the two parties fail to come to an agreement, they have to submit to arbitration. The resulting contract would be enforced through the courts, rather than the National Labor Relations Board, which unions have found to be slow and sometimes ineffective in deterring employers from violating contract terms."


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

JimS said:


> Tru dat.
> 
> So what do you get when a market like Seattle goes back up to the rates I have here? You get twice as many drivers and 1/2 as many pings. Don't see what any union can do for folks at this point.
> 
> ...


$40,000 car as an UberX? 
Talk about a PT Barnum world...


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## rickybobby (Jul 13, 2015)

i like the idea of a union. TK will never listen to us pee'ons...but maybe...just maybe a union he will


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## Gemgirlla (Oct 16, 2014)

JimS said:


> Tru dat.
> 
> So what do you get when a market like Seattle goes back up to the rates I have here? You get twice as many drivers and 1/2 as many pings. Don't see what any union can do for folks at this point.
> 
> ...


Part of what a union would negotiate is how many cars Uber can have on it's platform (like the cab companies). They would not be able to saturate the market like they have been doing in most markets, which, as we all know, cuts into per driver profits. The problem now is that Uber is completely unchecked. They can cut rates, add drivers, deactivate drivers, tell pax not to tip, not pay on rides (adjust fares arbitrarily), etc. There are no checks. This only hurts the drivers...

People in this country have been fighting for worker protections for decades. Uber and other companies like Uber are completely evading all of these protections to line their own pockets. I'm not interested in turning the US into a third world labor market and you should not be either.... Companies executives are the ones who are lining their pockets at the expense of the workers. Have you not looked at the escalating executive compensation in the last several years? All that will happen is that executive compensation won't be so astronomical...


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## Gemgirlla (Oct 16, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> *Mike O'Brien takes a stand against Uber*
> *http://crosscut.com/2015/08/mike-obrien-takes-a-stand-against-uber/*
> 
> _"Uber representatives would not comment directly on the ordinance O'Brien plans to introduce next week, saying that they had not had a chance to review it. "Uber is an important contributor to the local economy in Seattle, helping to create new opportunities for many people to earn a better living," said an Uber spokesperson in an e-mail." _


Uber thinks if they keep telling this lie over and over, it will eventually become truth. However, the numbers tell the truth...Fortunately, for the drivers, they have to file tax returns. That's where it gets real.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Uber Hires the very definition of scab labor. 
Uber gives the finger to whole COUNTRIES.
You really think they will negotiate with Hoffas minions?


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## UberNorthStar (Jul 7, 2015)

Thx, Cabby. . I misunderstood.



JimS said:


> Ok. Great. Who gets limited? Is that free market? How do you go about that fairly? Isn't that how medallion cabs and the mafia got control? Like I said, you trade one thug for another.


 What do you consider "free market?"

Is it being an independent contractor who is _dependent on _the client's decision (yes, Uber is our client.) as to how _your business _will be run? I don't think so. Personally, I do not take lightly to Uber telling me I have to agree to _their terms_ without being able to give my input.

My gripes include: 1) Charging low rates while taking a high commission from my paycheck; 2) Being told I cannot accept tips; 3) Not being able to have a say in future contracts; 4) Not being able to pay for my expenses directly to the creditor (TNC license, airport fees); <*Edit: 5) An unfair rating system.

RE Rating System
People, like a former manager of mine, feel a rating of 5 means "perfect" and will always rate one # down for that reason. If the rating system was 1= very poorly & 10 = the best, drivers could aim for an 7.5+ to remain on the app. 

That system in flawed b/c pax will rate a 5 out of 10 as being average, also.>*

I welcome a union to represent us.


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## Gemgirlla (Oct 16, 2014)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Uber Hires the very definition of scab labor.
> Uber gives the finger to whole COUNTRIES.
> You really think they will negotiate with Hoffas minions?


Uber has been successful in the US b/c it misleads people about hight potential earnings to get them to drive... Drivers drop like flies once they sign up and realize how little they can make or they are so bad they get deactivated by low ratings. It is getting harder in harder in many of the maturing markets for them to hire decent drivers. There is not an unlimited supply of decent drivers and cars, despite what Uber may think.


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## Gemgirlla (Oct 16, 2014)

UberNorthStar said:


> Thx, Cabby. . I misunderstood.
> 
> What do you consider "free market?"
> 
> ...


All a free market does is allow more powerful people to exploit less powerful people for their benefit....


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Gemgirlla said:


> Uber has been successful in the US b/c it misleads people about hight potential earnings to get them to drive... Drivers drop like flies once they sign up and realize how little they can make or they are so bad they get deactivated by low ratings. It is getting harder in harder in many of the maturing markets for them to hire decent drivers. There is not an unlimited supply of decent drivers and cars, despite what Uber may think.


I'm not against the attempt to organize. 
I was playing devils advocate in pointing out how little Uber will initially care.


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## Gemgirlla (Oct 16, 2014)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> I'm not against the attempt to organize.
> I was playing devils advocate in pointing out how little Uber will initially care.


Uber's response to everything is that they don't care because they are delusional....


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## UberNorthStar (Jul 7, 2015)

_*Merriam-Webster Dictionary: A free market economy is an economy in which the allocation for resources is determined only by their supply and the demand for them. This is mainly a theoretical concept as every country, even capitalist ones, places some restrictions on the ownership and exchange of commodities.
*_
Take gasoline for an example. We think pour gasoline is expensive until our car is almost out, and there is only ONE gas station for the next 50 miles. That's when we partially fill up, and complain afterwards the owner was taking advantage of our situation.

Also, we all know the gas prices are going up certain times of the year when demand is higher. The demand is higher and the gasoline providers raise their rates to the station's who pass it onto the consumer.


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## Gemgirlla (Oct 16, 2014)

UberNorthStar said:


> _*Definition: A free market economy is an economy in which the allocation for resources is determined only by their supply and the demand for them. This is mainly a theoretical concept as every country, even capitalist ones, places some restrictions on the ownership and exchange of commodities.*_


I guess under this definition, in the case of Uber, the drivers would set the price of the service...


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

UberNorthStar said:


> _*Definition: A free market economy is an economy in which the allocation for resources is determined only by their supply and the demand for them. This is mainly a theoretical concept as every country, even capitalist ones, places some restrictions on the ownership and exchange of commodities.*_


Who defined this?
Adam Smith?
Milton Friedman?
I'm honestly just curious as to which philosophy of free market were talking here.


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## XUberMike (Aug 2, 2015)

Boy I miss Savannah...well, except the bugs & humidity. I should have never left $1.50 a mile & Forrest Forrest Gump


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## UberNorthStar (Jul 7, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Who defined this?


 Merriam-Webster Dictionary


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## UberNorthStar (Jul 7, 2015)

Gemgirlla said:


> I guess under this definition, in the case of Uber, the drivers would set the price of the service...


As independent contractors we should. That is where regulations come in so drivers do not undercut each other.

JM2¢W


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## DexNex (Apr 18, 2015)

I would prefer to leave it just the way it is here. Don't believe all the hype.










Also, I only drive part time, and have a full time union job. That is the way to do this.


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## UberNorthStar (Jul 7, 2015)

DexNex said:


> I would prefer to leave it just the way it is here. Don't believe all the hype.


Thx for noting you are a union member. Seattle rates have gone up 25¢ I am told by Ms. Gearhart.

I am a business owner, not an employee of Uber. I am all for unionization of my local & state Uber ICs so we have someone to represent/lobby for us.


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## DexNex (Apr 18, 2015)

UberNorthStar said:


> Thx for noting you are a union member. Seattle rates have gone up 25¢ I am told by Ms. Gearhart.
> 
> I am a business owner, not an employee of Uber. I am all for unionization of my local & state Uber ICs so we have someone to represent/lobby for us.


I make more money per week driving Uber for 15-28 hours, then I do as a Senior Journey-person at my full-time union job (at $20/hour).

The only reason that I have not left for Uber full-time is that it does not offer benefits, and the pay level is not sustainable. If you drive days and 40 hours per week, you are not going to make very much money.

The drivers I see complaining on TV look like the old cab drivers. If you want to make the money with Uber you have to drive at night, you have to drive weekends, and you have to drive the bar crowds. I never see weekend-night drivers being interviewed. Do you know why that is? Because it is surging too much for them to waste their time *****ing.


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## UberNorthStar (Jul 7, 2015)

DexNex said:


> If you want to make the money with Uber you have to drive at night, you have to drive weekends, and you have to drive the bar crowds.


I agree. I have medical benefits through my husband. Since I began studying my agreement and reading this forum, I believe I have learned how to make my business a money-maker. I wouldn't be able to live off the earnings. Then I do not need to.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

UberNorthStar said:


> I agree. I have medical benefits through my husband. Since I began studying my agreement and reading this forum, I believe I have learned how to make my business a money-maker. I wouldn't be able to live off the earnings. Then I do not need to.


You seem smart and reasonable.
Don't you think livery plates and insurance would serve you better in the long haul?
You could build clientelle, have actual airport pickup privileges, file taxes under an S Corp. 
If anything, this is what union representation should be negotiating for you, as well as rate structure.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

JimS said:


> Tru dat.
> 
> So what do you get when a market like Seattle goes back up to the rates I have here? You get twice as many drivers and 1/2 as many pings. Don't see what any union can do for folks at this point.
> 
> ...


Most likely those corporations blamed Unions, when the truth of the matter is, they were poorly managed in the first placed.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

rickybobby said:


> i like the idea of a union. TK will never listen to us pee'ons...but maybe...just maybe a union he will


So what will you do, go on strike? Uber will shut you off and round up a new group of fools to take advantage of.

Remember....you guys signed up for this EVEN AFTER experienced cab drivers told you what would happen.

So go ahead...join that Union and guard the gates so the new scabs can't cross the picket line. Oh wait....there is no line.

Turn off the app and get a real job. It's the only way Uber will give a hoot.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

UberNorthStar said:


> Thx for noting you are a union member. Seattle rates have gone up 25¢ I am told by Ms. Gearhart.
> 
> I am a business owner, not an employee of Uber. I am all for unionization of my local & state Uber ICs so we have someone to represent/lobby for us.


Toss your Uber app in the trash and see just how well your " business" does. Without Uber, your rideshare "business" is nothing.

And you already have someone who represents/lobbies for you. How do you think Uber makes ( pushes) their way in town? Do you actually believe Seattle or Portland would allow an under/non-insured livery service to start a business?


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

DexNex said:


> I make more money per week driving Uber for 15-28 hours, then I do as a Senior Journey-person at my full-time union job (at $20/hour).
> 
> .


What sort of dead end Journeyman level job do you have that only pays $20 bucks an hour? Sanding Sheetrock?


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

phillipzx3 said:


> Toss your Uber app in the trash and see just how well your " business" does. Without Uber, your rideshare "business" is nothing.
> 
> And you already have someone who represents/lobbies for you. How do you think Uber makes ( pushes) their way in town? Do you actually believe Seattle or Portland would allow an under/non-insured livery service to start a business?


Uber represents/lobbies for itself, not for drivers.


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## UberNorthStar (Jul 7, 2015)

TwoFiddle Mike said:


> You seem smart and reasonable.
> Don't you think livery plates and insurance would serve you better in the long haul?
> You could build clientelle, have actual airport pickup privileges, file taxes under an S Corp.
> If anything, this is what union representation should be negotiating for you, as well as rate structure.


TY for the compliment,TFM. I am working on the insurance, and will not drive until it is in place. I currently have airport privileges, and am looking to list my business as an llc. The info I have gleaned from this forum has been helpful.


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## UberNorthStar (Jul 7, 2015)

phillipzx3 said:


> Toss your Uber app in the trash and see just how well your " business" does. Without Uber, your rideshare "business" is nothing.


My business is multi-facited. I do not rely on rideshare exclusively to earn money.



phillipzx3 said:


> And you already have someone who represents/lobbies for you.


Yes, I do. I have three lobbyists. Me, Myself, and I are their names. 



phillipzx3 said:


> Do you actually believe Seattle or Portland would allow an under/non-insured livery service to start a business?


The cities you speak of are not in the state I live in. 
Did I say you made an A$$ of yourself? If not, I just did.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

*Bid to unionize Uber, Lyft advances*
Daniel Beekman 
Seattle Times staff reporter
Seattle City Council members voted 7-0 in a committee Friday to move ahead with a bill that would help independent-contractor drivers for companies like Uber to unionize.

The proposed legislation, approved by the council's finance committee, would require taxi companies, for-hire vehicle companies and app-based dispatch companies such as Uber and Lyft to enter collective bargaining with organizations representing drivers.

The bill, championed by Councilmember Mike O'Brien in partnership with the Teamsters Local 117, is a new approach by labor organizers to unionize workers who lack certain rights because they're not classified as employees.

The legislation would be the first in the country requiring companies to bargain with independent contractors and might carry implications outside the driving industry.

The nine-member council has yet to schedule a final vote on the bill. The city will almost certainly be sued if the council adopts the legislation and the mayor signs it, because opponents, including Uber and Lyft, argue it conflicts with federal law.

The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), which grants employees the right to collective bargaining, doesn't do that for independent contractors, the opponents note. Further, they say, local governments lack the authority to regulate collective bargaining.

Proponents might argue the NLRA shouldn't matter precisely because it doesn't cover independent contractors. City Attorney Pete Holmes has kept mum on his advice to the council, while O'Brien has expressed confidence the city can beat a challenge.

"I'm always concerned (about the city losing a lawsuit)," he said. "That's something we balance when we're passing legislation that hasn't been done before. There's a trade-off between that risk and the benefit we would get for workers. I believe the upside on this is worth more than the downside."

Under the legislation, drivers for each company would choose by majority vote a nonprofit organization to serve as their representative in collective bargaining.

The organizations would need to be certified by the city and would receive driver lists from the city in order to organize before a vote. Lyft has said the process might compromise the privacy of the company's drivers.

"We are disappointed with the committee vote to advance a policy that threatens the privacy of drivers, imposes substantial costs on passengers and the city, and conflicts with long-standing federal law," Lyft spokeswoman Chelsea Wilson said Friday.

Breakdowns in the bargaining process required by the legislation would lead to arbitration, and the resulting contracts would be enforced by the courts. The city could fine companies or revoke their licenses to enforce the legislation.

Councilmember Bruce Harrell was among those who voted for the bill in committee Friday and called it "a piece of legislation that heads us in the right direction."

But Harrell also said he hopes proponents, such as the Teamsters, will sit down with the bill's opponents to hammer out a compromise before the council's final vote. That would save the city and companies from having to slug it out in court, he said.

"The elephant in the room is that this is going to result in litigation. That means everybody loses except the lawyers," Harrell said. "It would be ideal for the parties to work on this, and we as council members should encourage them to do that."


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

e National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), which grants employees the right to collective bargaining, doesn't do that for independent contractors, the opponents note. Further, they say, local governments lack the authority to regulate collective bargaining.

Proponents might argue the NLRA shouldn't matter precisely because it doesn't cover independent contractors. City Attorney Pete Holmes has kept mum on his advice to the council, while O'Brien has expressed confidence the city can beat a challenge.

*Lol, isn't this exactly Ubers argument?

The rules don't mention us, so rules don't apply to us. *


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## undertoad (Oct 10, 2015)

Gemgirlla said:


> All a free market does is allow more powerful people to exploit less powerful people for their benefit....


Actually, truly free markets do the opposite of that. Big business thrives best when its interest are protected by big government. Also, markets controlled by government regulation always work to the advantage of big businesses that can easily absorb the costs of such regulation, which tend to kill smaller businesses. Too few people realize that.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

undertoad said:


> Also, markets controlled by government regulation always work to the advantage of big businesses that can easily absorb the costs of such regulation, which tend to kill smaller businesses.


In the case of Uber Drivers, it's Uber that's controlling the Big Government:

*#UberENDRUN | Getting Drivers declared as Independent Contractors by States' TNC Laws*


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## undertoad (Oct 10, 2015)

Uber and other big businesses buys influence from government. Smaller businesses can't afford to, so they lose. That is not a free market, though—quite the opposite, really.


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## arto71 (Sep 20, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...something-crazy-to-let-uber-drivers-unionize/


*Uber is using its US customer service reps to deliver its anti-union message*
*http://qz.com/619601/uber-is-using-its-us-customer-service-reps-to-deliver-its-anti-union-message/*


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## arto71 (Sep 20, 2014)

*Uber asks City of Seattle to follow 4 'key principles' when crafting driver union law*

*http://www.geekwire.com/2016/uber-a...our-key-principles-crafting-driver-union-law/*


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