# So what is the minimum rate per mile that an ant would need to continue to hustle?



## JeanOcelot0 (Dec 30, 2020)

After reading the wonderful articles that Yours Truly had recently posted about Uber , I have come to the conclusion that going forward, rideshare will need to be renumerative enough from the pax-pay alone for ants to continue to be motivated enough to hustle, and U/L investors have had it with burning cash. I think that the overhead that U/L charge will eventually drop since if the premium is too fat, someone else can come into the marketplace to be the "business facilitator".

In any case, the question here is how much per mile would an ant need (presume a place with a normal COL). I'm thinking that the typical ant would be happy hustling for a net $20/hr, and so if the average speed of a ride is 30 mph, then that would mean 1.5 mi/$, or $0.66/mi. Add in the standard $0.54/hr actual cost for supplying ride, and that would be a total of $1.20/mi.

Or am I underestimating the desperation of the typical ant here to only hustle at a net $20/hr?


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

I suspect there are ants out there who would happily drive for tips only.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

My motivation to drive varies day in and day out.

Per mile and per minute pay don't seem to matter too much because unless driving at base rates most of the pay is in promotions or surge.

When there is no surge I sometimes do a handful of rides out of boredom, but usually no more than a few. If rides are truly back to back, I might go for a while longer, if I'm having fun. This generally means no big events with slow awful traffic and no rush hour traffic, and I'm just in the mood to drive. Or if I haven't made my Uber Pro points for Gold I might grind out some points during triple point hours.

When there is $5 sticky surge on each ride, I'll probably continue driving in hopes of seeing a $10+ surge soon, but if they aren't coming I'll often get bored and stop.

When there is a $10-15 sticky surge on each ride I'll probably drive any time I can but I won't lose sleep over it.

If there is a $20+ sticky surge on rides I might use stimulants to keep myself awake.


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## #1husler (Aug 22, 2017)

Atavar said:


> I suspect there are ants out there who would happily drive for tips only.


Some ants on this forum have reported returning tips…


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## dapperstache (Apr 18, 2021)

Report


#1husler said:


> Some ants on this forum have reported returning tips…


Ants? Or Idiots?


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## dapperstache (Apr 18, 2021)

In all honesty, between reading on forums and reddit, there's a lot of drivers that actually pay to drive. They may not realize it, but they are.


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## BestInDaWest (Apr 8, 2021)

only reason i drive is if i get hammered at the casino lol


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## #1husler (Aug 22, 2017)

dapperstache said:


> In all honesty, between reading on forums and reddit, there's a lot of drivers that actually pay to drive. They may not realize it, but they are.


Well....I've met more than one (when I travel and use RS) and yes they DO realize but don't care....a significant number of "hobby drivers" ply our roads in their gas-guzzlers (ie, Ford Explorer, etc), accepting ALL pings/EVERY ride request (bare none) and agreeing to wait infinite amounts of time for pax to set show up...the hobbyist has no problem with taking that 22+ min away ping to do a smoke runs...and yes they are lucky to break even (some dont, and yes pay to drive) but seem motivated by the prospect of just getting out the house and doing something, meeting persons, etc. So no they aren't "idiots" because realize they pay to drive, but dont seem to mind...on one hand I'd say "to each his own", but on the other I'd concede that their approach (often accepting to add in stops for the dreaded fast-food drive thru or Walmart to "run in for some quick shopping), or offering to porter groceries up flights of stair, etc) creates false expectations that pax pass on to me, and I dont have time for it so causes tension.


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## June132017 (Jun 13, 2017)

#1husler said:


> So no they aren't "idiots" because realize they pay to drive, but dont seem to mind.


I guess they will care when they go to buy a car. Chevy Aveo hasn't looked so good.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

JeanOcelot0 said:


> After reading the wonderful articles that Yours Truly had recently posted about Uber , I have come to the conclusion that going forward, rideshare will need to be renumerative enough from the pax-pay alone for ants to continue to be motivated enough to hustle, and U/L investors have had it with burning cash. I think that the overhead that U/L charge will eventually drop since if the premium is too fat, someone else can come into the marketplace to be the "business facilitator".
> 
> In any case, the question here is how much per mile would an ant need (presume a place with a normal COL). I'm thinking that the typical ant would be happy hustling for a net $20/hr, and so if the average speed of a ride is 30 mph, then that would mean 1.5 mi/$, or $0.66/mi. Add in the standard $0.54/hr actual cost for supplying ride, and that would be a total of $1.20/mi.
> 
> Or am I underestimating the desperation of the typical ant here to only hustle at a net $20/hr?


While the cost of driving your car is more than the gas that most ants consider, if it is costing you .54 cents a mile, you are screwed. A reasonable cost considering everything including depreciation, taxes, insurance, etc... is probably somewhere between .28 and .40 cent depending on what you drive.
With that said, I think there are unfortunately a ton of people who would be happy clearing $10 or 12 bucks an hour. I mean if you are doing a fast food job for 8 to 10 bucks an hour, this has to look pretty appealing. Your figures don't take into account dead miles, stop and go, etc... unfortunately this beast is little more complicated than a single metric, it has to be a balance of trip charge, time and mileage. I would gladly do a long distance round trip on the interstate for $1 a mile, could probably clear $45 an hour @ 1.20 a mile but in Raleigh on a Saturday night, I recently averaged 19 miles an hour (including dead miles) over the course of 11 hours of driving. When you consider that dead miles probably account for a third of that, I'm looking at maybe $165 gross at your pricing model. No way I would do short trips ever again if I could help it.


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## #1husler (Aug 22, 2017)

dapperstache said:


> Report
> 
> Ants? Or Idiots?


Not idiots but..they’ve written bout returning tips to pax who “can’t afford to tip” or were “too confused about tipping”, or it’s somehow “good karma” , none of which makes sense to me…but these person may not be driving to earn money,and really mean it (i need to remember to ask for these drivers numbers next time I encounter them,but they are out there in surprising numbers)


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## NOXDriver (Aug 12, 2018)

sharing your trip/ride was never meant to be a career. But there are millions of stupid people who try and make it work. 

if you are dumb enough to think that you are living large at $1000/week working 60+ hours a week then enjoy being a slave with no time off, no vacation, no holiday, no health insurance, no retirement, no way to advance.

Think of it, a driver with 10000 rides and 5 years experience gets paid the exact amount of pennies as the newest newbie to go online.

Please keep posting your takes of woe so I can revel in how good I have it NOT being a driver anymore.


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## FerengiBob (Nov 6, 2019)

I agree with those $1.20 estimates.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

The fact that there is no shortage of drivers in my market where X pays 75 cents a mile and 10 cents a min, tells me that the minimum per mile needed to motivate drivers is less than that

I dont think dollars per mile or dollars per hour is what motivates most drivers. I think we all do this because we need a certain amount of money each week or month to meet our needs. If we can make that money with Uber we do it. If we can meet our needs easier, doing something else, we do that.


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## Nythain (Jul 15, 2021)

@Disgusted Driver thanks for mentioning insurance. Knew i was missing something in my cost per mile calculation.


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## FerengiBob (Nov 6, 2019)

The money helps and I have certain weekly and long term goals.

Secondly, the social interaction with pax is surprisingly positive.

I geek out about the per mile number, and as long as it stays constant then driving is a no brainer.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

My expenses are 
(Ford Explorer)

gas 15 cents a mile
maintenance and repairs 5 cents a mile
insurance 5 cents a mile

Total expenses 25 cents a mile

Im averaging 80 cents a mile gross income, incl tips and private rides (total miles) so Im netting 55 cents a mile. If I drive 1000 miles a week Thats better than $2000 a month which meets my needs


The local Lowes is hiring. I stopped in to ask about hours and pay. They wanted retail experience, which I have. It was part time only, $11/hour so about $1200 a month


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## dapperstache (Apr 18, 2021)

oldfart said:


> My expenses are
> (Ford Explorer)
> 
> gas 15 cents a mile
> ...


You're going to hate Lowe's. That's what inspired me to do Uber until I get IT certs.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

dapperstache said:


> You're going to hate Lowe's. That's what inspired me to do Uber until I get IT certs.


I wasn’t event tempted to apply. I only talked to them out of curiosity. There’s no way I could be on my feet that long or put up with their customers. I posed the experience in this thread to try and answer the question posed by the op. Specifically what motivates some of to drive is a comparison to other opportunities. Not the dollars per hour or dollars per mile. Uber is a perfect for me and I suspect others that do this as a complement to another source of income (I’m my case retirement income)


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## FerengiBob (Nov 6, 2019)

If I were not tied up in a family business, I could see real estate.

USPS wants drivers in my area starting at $19 per hour but no bennies. Not sure if that is driving my vehicle or their vehicle.

I have always had hobbies and gigs, and RS checks alot of boxes for my situation.


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## NewLyftDriver (Sep 10, 2021)

I'd say about tree fiddy


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## JeanOcelot0 (Dec 30, 2020)

oldfart said:


> My expenses are
> (Ford Explorer)
> 
> gas 15 cents a mile
> ...


And all the while, you are eating away depreciation of your ride that you are not counting. U/L depends on ants not taking this into account. But if your gross rate is accurate, you would still be coming out ahead, just not as high a rate.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

JeanOcelot0 said:


> And all the while, you are eating away depreciation of your ride that you are not counting. U/L depends on ants not taking this into account. But if your gross rate is accurate, you would still be coming out ahead, just not as high a rate.


Depreciation is something to consider at tax time. It does not affect cash flow. or income

Certainly you need to be prepared to repair and replace your car. You either need to have the credit to buy another car or you need to have the cash set aside, Either way, the question isnt how much is your current car worth, (and how much value does it lose every year). The question is, how much will your next car cost. And an anticipated expense is not a current expense.

But if you insist... I started this thing with 70000 miles on the car, and I expect it to go to 500000 (currently at 320000). so lets say 300000 rideshare miles. Given the $18000 value I put on the car when I started. I estimate my depreciation cost will be. 6 cents a mile


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## JeanOcelot0 (Dec 30, 2020)

oldfart said:


> Depreciation is something to consider at tax time. It does not affect cash flow. or income
> 
> Certainly you need to be prepared to repair and replace your car. You either need to have the credit to buy another car or you need to have the cash set aside, Either way, the question isnt how much is your current car worth, (and how much value does it lose every year). The question is, how much will your next car cost. And an anticipated expense is not a current expense.
> 
> But if you insist... I started this thing with 70000 miles on the car, and I expect it to go to 500000 (currently at 320000). so lets say 300000 rideshare miles. Given the $18000 value I put on the car when I started. I estimate my depreciation cost will be. 6 cents a mile


That's quite an optimistic prognostication.

And depreciation doesn't matter at tax time, since the federal rate covers total driving costs - but certainly, the smart ant can get by with a lower cost that the rate, with the difference being tax free income.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

JeanOcelot0 said:


> That's quite an optimistic prognostication.
> 
> And depreciation doesn't matter at tax time, since the federal rate covers total driving costs - but certainly, the smart ant can get by with a lower cost that the rate, with the difference being tax free income.


no doubt , optimistic. But here’s the thing, when I started doing this I was 71 and my plan was to drive until I turned 75. I figured one of us (me or the car) would crap out by then. Turns out we are both still going strong. The car is at 320000 miles and I’ll be 75 in a week. My new plan is to drive (but not as much as I have been until I’m 80 and the car ages out of Uber. (Unless, as before, the car craps out or I do)

This is a Florida car, so no rust and no potholes so it ought to last forever as long as I continue to maintain the engine and transmission. In any case the car is fully depreciated and Im not going to replace it I don’t need the money anymore. All my Uber money goes into crypto currency now

when I said depreciation is only a thing at tax time, I was assuming actual expenses rather than the standard mileage deduction because you are have been talking as if depreciation as a real expense. It’s either a real expense or it’s included in the standard deduction It can’t be both. Either way though you should be saving money to replace the car at the same rate the old one is depreciating

I don’t need the money anymore I’m putting everything I earn in the next few years into crypto currency. For my grandkids.


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## DonnieBrasco (Oct 4, 2021)

$8/1.40 a mile in a small market


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## priusorlando (Sep 7, 2014)

Orlando pays $0.53 a mile and $0.08 per minute


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