# Lyft looking to get bought out?



## Jo3030 (Jan 2, 2016)

Lyft is reportedly working with M&A firm Qatalyst Partners https://wp.me/p5hvhT-8lFhby @thekenyeung

Lyft could be looking to be acquired as reports have surfaced suggesting that the on-demand car service has enlisted the help of Qatalyst Partners, a firm known for facilitating mergers and acquisitions. The company declined to comment on the report.

Sources told _The Wall Street Journal _that Frank Quattrone, Qatalyst's founder and executive chairman, has been in contact with various companies including large auto makers about taking a stake in Lyft. The company has raised more than $2 billion in funding and has been on a seemingly furious pace to take on Uber, which has a massive war chest at its disposal. It has been valued at $5.5 billion so any possible acquisition has left people to concede that Uber has won the ridesharing war.

Should Lyft be acquired and shuttered, this leaves Uber as the standalone service, especially after General Motors picked up what was left of Sidecar after it shut down in December. That company's CEO Sunil Paul once wrote that Uber's "win at any cost" model basically put Sidecar out of business and it's possible that this could result in the same thing for Lyft.

In an effort to counter the growing influence of Uber, Lyft has formed an ridesharing alliance with other companies - kind of like a "the enemy of my enemy" situation. Last September, the company struck an accord with China's Didi which has recently received backing from Apple, and also with GrabTaxi and Ola.

Some of the Lyft's investors include a bevy of who's who in the investment world, including Icahn Enterprises, Rakuten, Andreessen Horowitz, Founders Fund, Mayfield Fund, K9 Ventures, fbFund, and even General Motors which put in $500 million of a $1 billion round into the company.

What may be appealing to large auto makers is technology around self-driving cars that Lyft and may of these ridesharing services are working on. This is why General Motors made its investment according to its president Dan Ammann: "With GM and Lyft working together, we believe we can successfully implement this vision [of creating an integrated network of on-demand autonomous vehicles] more rapidly."

If we had to think about acquisitions, it's quite likely that General Motors could be one of the leading contenders to snatch up the company.


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## 58756 (May 30, 2016)

Getting bought out may improve them


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## Dang (Feb 2, 2016)

Who cares lyft sucks anyways


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## yucklyftline (Mar 23, 2016)

Lyft just can't compete in the San Francisco market. So many incentives for uber drivers here, it's crazy. 100 for 10 rides on Mondays, 500 extra for 120 rides a week. I drive lyft full time and get nothing, except what I earn in tips, usually 100 or so. Sometimes their hourly guarantees are $20 less per hour than ubers. They are by far the more affordable option for pax, but its absolutely frustrating for a driver. I've since found how to play Lyfts game and do an ok job not getting stuck with a ride I don't want. It was nice working for Lyft but uber is better for the driver, at least in this market.


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

yucklyftline said:


> Lyft just can't compete in the San Francisco market. So many incentives for uber drivers here, it's crazy. 100 for 10 rides on Mondays, 500 extra for 120 rides a week. I drive lyft full time and get nothing, except what I earn in tips, usually 100 or so. Sometimes their hourly guarantees are $20 less per hour than ubers. They are by far the more affordable option for pax, but its absolutely frustrating for a driver. I've since found how to play Lyfts game and do an ok job not getting stuck with a ride I don't want. It was nice working for Lyft but uber is better for the driver, at least in this market.


It's shocking how Lyft went from going toe-to-toe in SF and LA just a few months ago to how they are struggling in those seasoned markets is scary. Uber albeit unpopular by most drivers have actually been able to keep and maintain drivers with so many promotions just goes to show you how massive Uber's warchest is.


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## kevink (Apr 18, 2016)

I like Lyft, but they do need work. Fingers crossed that GM gets them, maybe Mary Barra can help fix them.


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## yucklyftline (Mar 23, 2016)

macchiato said:


> It's shocking how Lyft went from going toe-to-toe in SF and LA just a few months ago to how they are struggling in those seasoned markets is scary. Uber albeit unpopular by most drivers have actually been able to keep and maintain drivers with so many promotions just goes to show you how massive Uber's warchest is.


Exactly. When I first became a driver the edge was with Lyft because of the tipping feature. Not only is their new driver referral 250 compared to 1000 for uber, fuber has them beat on incentives too


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## backstreets-trans (Aug 16, 2015)

It'll be a sad day for drivers if Uber is the lone rideshare company standing. Now they're paying drivers in the big markets more then they make off the fares with the metal incentives. They can't keep paying more out then they bring in on each fare. If lyft goes down so will all the driver incentives.


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## yucklyftline (Mar 23, 2016)

backstreets-trans said:


> It'll be a sad day for drivers if Uber is the lone rideshare company standing. Now they're paying drivers in the big markets more then they make off the fares with the metal incentives. They can't keep paying more out then they bring in on each fare. If lyft goes down so will all the driver incentives.


Does uber drop rates to increase rideshare, or to eventually become a steadfast competitor of public transportation? Or, playing devils advocate, to run lyft out of business?

Wasn't lyft the first company that skirted laws and made it possible for non-commercial drivers to transport using their own vehicles? UberX was introduced months later because uberblack was in jeopardy. So, as far as all of us, lyft came before uber. And it's lyft these days who is the cheaper alternative to pax. Maybe Uber set the rates so low, lyft has seen the writing on the wall. Instead of ending up with sidecar, maybe now's a great time to cash in.

Possible uber RAISES their rates? Or keeps them the same. If rates dropped below $1 with no surge and no incentives, they'd lose me as a driver.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

yucklyftline said:


> Lyft just can't compete in the San Francisco market. So many incentives for uber drivers here, it's crazy. 100 for 10 rides on Mondays, 500 extra for 120 rides a week. I drive lyft full time and get nothing, except what I earn in tips, usually 100 or so. Sometimes their hourly guarantees are $20 less per hour than ubers. They are by far the more affordable option for pax, but its absolutely frustrating for a driver. I've since found how to play Lyfts game and do an ok job not getting stuck with a ride I don't want. It was nice working for Lyft but uber is better for the driver, at least in this market.


Funny.. one of my sister-in-laws said this weekend that she's making far more money driving for Lyft in San Francisco than Uber. She totally quit driving for Uber last month. It's fascinating how some drivers can't do well with one company in a given market, while other drivers do great.

Wish I could find the Lyft financials. Is their overhead that much more than Ubers? That's hard to imagine. Perhaps the company is not run as efficiently as Uber.


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## yucklyftline (Mar 23, 2016)

AllenChicago said:


> Funny.. one of my sister-in-laws said this weekend that she's making far more money driving for Lyft in San Francisco than Uber. She totally quit driving for Uber last month. It's fascinating how some drivers can't do well with one company in a given market, while other drivers do great.


I drive for lyft full time, I have few complaints compared to uber. I make more driving for lyft also because of pdb and tips. But uber stepped up its game this past week offering an extra thousand for 320 rides in a month. That's an extra 250 per week, ON TOP of everything else. No response from lyft, except this news


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

One of the problems of Lyft's rating system is that if a pax *or *driver rates either a 3 or lower, they won't get matched again. While this may be good for the drivers, it screws up the pax request system because now they have effectively taken a driver off the road for this pax. Once they do this enough times (more so for drivers than pax), it creates a faux shortage of cars on the road.



AllenChicago said:


> Funny.. one of my sister-in-laws said this weekend that she's making far more money driving for Lyft in San Francisco than Uber. She totally quit driving for Uber last month. It's fascinating how some drivers can't do well with one company in a given market, while other drivers do great.
> 
> Wish I could find the Lyft financials. Is their overhead that much more than Ubers? That's hard to imagine. Perhaps the company is not run as efficiently as Uber.


Lyft was bleeding money more because even though some drivers do the PDB every week, they weren't making their commission back as much as Uber was. Now with the metal incentives for Uber drivers, I'm sure Uber is spending tons of money for drivers.

Uber has more investment capital than Lyft to wait this out so it's only a matter of time Lyft caves and gives up by either going under or selling before their brand is worthless.


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## backstreets-trans (Aug 16, 2015)

AllenChicago said:


> Funny.. one of my sister-in-laws said this weekend that she's making far more money driving for Lyft in San Francisco than Uber. She totally quit driving for Uber last month. It's fascinating how some drivers can't do well with one company in a given market, while other drivers do great.
> 
> Wish I could find the Lyft financials. Is their overhead that much more than Ubers? That's hard to imagine. Perhaps the company is not run as efficiently as Uber.


http://qz.com/718339/lyft-has-hired...nown-for-helping-tech-companies-get-acquired/

This article gives some data on the bottom. NY tracks rides and Uber gives five times the rides as Lyft there. Uber also has more than five time the venture capitalist money invested. Uber's 11.5 billion to Lyft's 2 billion.


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

The recent redesign now makes perfect sense. When real estate investors try to sell off property, one of the first things they do is a remodel or at the very least a fresh coat of paint. 

This redesign is to lure other investors to invest or buy their company.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

macchiato said:


> One of the problems of Lyft's rating system is that if a pax *or *driver rates either a 3 or lower, they won't get matched again. While this may be good for the drivers, it screws up the pax request system because now they have effectively taken a driver off the road for this pax. Once they do this enough times (more so for drivers than pax), it creates a faux shortage of cars on the road.
> 
> Lyft was bleeding money more because even though some drivers do the PDB every week, they weren't making their commission back as much as Uber was. Now with the metal incentives for Uber drivers, I'm sure Uber is spending tons of money for drivers.
> 
> Uber has more investment capital than Lyft to wait this out so it's only a matter of time Lyft caves and gives up by either going under or selling before their brand is worthless.


Thanks for that detailed response, Macchiato! I didn't know that Lyft was losing so much $$$. These private companies tend to keep profit/loss information secret.

Also, it seems that Lyft spends a lot of money on "Fluff" that generates ZERO revenue. For instance, who drives harder for Lyft because they got a jacket, or a big pink mustache, or 20% discount at Flowers.com? I've got an unopened box right here under my desk that contains the pink mustache.

It appears that Uber has more "meat" to their incentives. I'm amazed by how much money some Uber drivers are making per-hour in Chicago, simply because Uber uses incentives that improve the driver's standard of living, if he/she chooses to pursue them. At least that's the impression I get from reading the Chicago Uber forum.
ac


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

AllenChicago

Off topic but if you include an "@" symbol in front of the username, posters get alerted when their name is mentioned.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

backstreets-trans said:


> http://qz.com/718339/lyft-has-hired...nown-for-helping-tech-companies-get-acquired/
> 
> This article gives some data on the bottom. NY tracks rides and Uber gives five times the rides as Lyft there. Uber also has more than five time the venture capitalist money invested. Uber's 11.5 billion to Lyft's 2 billion.


Seems that Uber is pricing rides low, knowing that Lyft and certainly the baby rideshare companies can't match those rates for very long. They have to cry "Uncle!" eventually. When Uber has squashed them in a given market, the company will begin inching fares up to where they should be.

I remember when AT&T did that to drive my Excel Communications franchise out of business, back in 1999. We couldn't match their ungodly low rate of 7 cents a minute for long distance calls.

P.S. Macchiato, thanks for the "@" tip!


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

Precisely.

Uber has the money to outlast the smaller outfit. After they have enough drivers, they start lowering rates to squash the competition all the while giving back drivers a "fair" wage through incentives to offset cheap pay. Once competition is gone, they raise rates so they earn money back.

Then a new competitor comes along with a different approach and we start this cheap pay dance all over again.

They could be looking to buyout Lyft, but we'll see.


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## Luber4.9 (Nov 25, 2015)

Lyft needs to show the PrimeTime on the request to the driver.

Lyft needs to reverse their decision to hide the destination.

Lyft needs Lux and Plus only modes for drivers.

Pretty simple. Just do it.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

Luber4.9 said:


> Lyft needs to show the PrimeTime on the request to the driver.
> 
> Lyft needs to reverse their decision to hide the destination.
> 
> ...


If Lyft's financial status is as dire as it seems, they're not giving any thought to improving drivers' working conditions at this point in time. It would be like the captain of the S.S. Titanic worrying about the waiters and cooks, after the ship had struck the iceberg.

But, the +100,000 Lyft drivers are a major asset on the private balance sheet. Lyft will keep the majority of these drivers satisfied, but spending money to make us "happier" is a dead end, *if* Lyft is hurting and wanting to sell ASAP. (IMO)


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

I don't think they are hurting. If anything Uber is going through a lot of investor funds faster than Lyft is spending theirs. 

Best case scenario, I think both companies are barely making a profit, however I remember reading somewhere that Uber is losing tons because they are spending so much on drivers.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Aren't we all assuming Lyft is running out of money and Uber has tons of money?

How do we know Uber isn't running out of money? This would make more sense since Uber can't seem to raise anymore investor money here in the states. They have had to resort to recieving money from Saudi Arabia and trying to raise money from lenders of last resort. 

Hasn't everyone here heard the Turtle and Hare fable?

We are all speculating that Uber has tons of cash. If Uber had tons of cash, they wouldn't be out trying to constantly raise more money.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

http://www.wsj.com/articles/uber-to-raise-up-to-2-billion-in-leveraged-loan-market-1465925931


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

I have heard that Lyft is trying to be more strategic in they way they burn through cash. New driver incentives in the Savannah area is $10 after 30 rides. Seriously? I got in on a $150 sign on bonus after 20 rides. Still more than I got from gUber. 

They also stopped giving away expensive free stuff. Uber never did. But Uber gave away a ton of cash. A TON of cash. Their guarantees are unsustainable. They spend so much on new drivers and advertising for new drivers that it's unbelievable. They are pouring cash to gain market share. But they are pissing off the drivers. One day, they'll stop hemorrhaging cash and the drivers will have no reason to drive.


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## Jay Dean (Apr 3, 2015)

Read about it in the Wall Street Journal today, I would bet on Lyft being owned by GM, GM is at least seeing the future of where things are going (with automated cars). Lyft strikes a chord with this generation..I know I hear about it all the time after they pulled out of Austin and drive people for other companies, funny how a product can resonate with people. Just my theory


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## MiddleClassedOut (Jun 11, 2015)

Lyft's customer service is all US-based too - Uber has a major cost advantage in having outsourced all of it.

So this is why they cut the guarantees nation wide...I haven't even gotten any for July 4.


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## MikesUber (Oct 23, 2015)

AllenChicago said:


> Also, it seems that Lyft spends a lot of money on "Fluff" that generates ZERO revenue. For instance, who drives harder for Lyft because they got a jacket, or a big pink mustache, or 20% discount at Flowers.com?


 Someone get this guy some Lyft branded gear b/c he is spot on. Their benefits central thing (whatever they call it) is worthless. Discounts and benefits from companies I'll never use or don't want to use. I'm trying to make money with U/L not spend it. If Lyft is spending cash for these partnerships cut those partnerships and spend more on profit generation for drivers. That's why I'm online with Uber 99% of the time because of surges. Vague pink squares and an app that doesn't show me Prime Time on the request is just giving the competition even more of my drive time.


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## ND379 (Mar 29, 2016)

They are still doing hourly guarantees here in Seattle. Last week, 6 of the 7 days (all but Saturday) were hourly guarantee days. I ended up doing 99 rides and getting the 20% pdb plus some compensation for some hours where I didn't meet the 25 an hour guarantee. That said, I think this market is one of the very rare where Lyft is doing well. Uber never offers good incentives here. Their crappy 1.2 surge is not worth putting up with their customers or customer support.


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## UberJag (Feb 29, 2016)

macchiato said:


> I don't think they are hurting. If anything Uber is going through a lot of investor funds faster than Lyft is spending theirs.
> 
> Best case scenario, I think both companies are barely making a profit, however I remember reading somewhere that Uber is losing tons because they are spending so much on drivers.


Uber must be losing money. I got a guaranteed $40 an hour yesterday from 5-7pm. I only drove Uber (not Lyft) because of the guarantee. Had it not been for the guarantee I would have only made $33 in 2 hours vs. $80! I'm tending to only drive for the hourly guarantees now. I only drive part-time though.


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

Now on Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrog...deshare-wars-may-be-over-mostly/#2b4ad5671f67

*Endgame? With Lyft Reportedly For Sale, The Rideshare Wars May Be Over (Mostly)*

"If Lyft is really for sale - and the company didn't deny it yesterday - it signals a surprising new chapter in the rideshare wars: the endgame. It's not so much shocking to hear that Lyft believes it can't beat Uber for supremacy in the U.S., the only market Lyft operates. To many observers, that has been apparent for quite a long while.

Off-ramp? The Wall Street Journal suggests Lyft may be heading for an exit. It might not be last rideshare company to do so.

Rather, the surprise is that Lyft may be ready to give up independence and dreams of a public offering to achieve any exit at all. This despite a $1 billion funding round just months ago and telling FORBES it had $1.5 billion in cash as of May, as Brian Solomon noted. The company had earlier allegedly promised not to burn more than $50 million per month suggesting a substantial 2-plus-years of runway.

_Ridesharing may be the source of future riches, but it's the source of present losses. _Uber says it's profitable in "hundreds of cities &#8230; globally" according to CEO Travis Kalanick. But that claim is notably short on detail (what exactly does a profitable city look like, accounting-wise) and also on depth. Uber doesn't imply it makes money overall, nor even outside the competitive market of China. With close to an order of magnitude more rides daily than Lyft, it is significant that Uber isn't yet in the black. And it implies Lyft might not get there for years.

_Lyft may already have given up on the very thing that makes it unique - at least emotionally. _The pink mustache isn't what makes Lyft special for its customer, rather it's the feeling of community; the idea you're getting a ride from a friend. But Lyft has already spent the last year or so marketing itself much the way Uber does, essentially saying it has an app that allows ordering a car. Surely the company knows what makes it unique; arguably it doesn't think that matters.

Fast forward a decade or so to a world of robotic, dispatchable vehicles - what I call mobility as a service (MaaS) - and the "person" behind the wheel may not be there, nor will the wheel. At that point, service won't be differentiated on personality or good feelings about your driver. Instead, it's likely to be some combination of price and features. Worse for Lyft, the act of replacing the humans with machines will seem particularly harsh for the "feel good" rideshare company.

Lyft may be concluding that (1) it won't have the capital to get there on its own and (2) that future is inevitable, it will drive down costs, and the winners will be the best capitalized. That likely means some combination of Uber and China's Didi, global automakers, and tech giants including Apple and Google. It doesn't mean kitsch glowing on the dashboard or the fist bump from days gone by.

_This may not be the last deal done in ridesharing. _Israeli startup Gett recently raised a big round of funding but is in a similar position to Lyft with respect to market leadership: It has little. (Incidentally, Lyft was said to be quite strong in Austin, where both it and Uber recently ended service over a local law requiring drivers to be fingerprinted. That surely didn't help.) Many markets find themselves with a local player like Ola in India, Grab (fka GrabTaxi) in southeast Asia alongside Uber, which is currently competing most everywhere that it hasn't been ruled illegal.

The exit that Lyft could be considering applies to any number of the startups. That said, there may be a disconnect on what they are all worth. Lyft's deal with GM was 10% for $500 million. The implied $5 billion valuation is likely far more than anyone would pay for the company at present. Don't fret for investors, most of whom are protected in transactions at lower prices. (Employees, not so much.) But realize that Lyft's prodigious fundraising wasn't an outlier for a regional player. Ola, Grab, Gett have taken in hundreds of millions or more. Paying everyone back and delivering a return requires a buyer offering a big price. Right now, that's unlikely.

If this is to be the end of an independent Lyft, it's possible that by the time the dust settles Didi will have picked up some of the pieces (it already has a stake in Lyft) and found itself battling Uber not just for the giant Chinese market but around the world. And that could suggest a two-horse race for supremacy in the future - at least for a while. There are reasons to believe MaaS will shake up the market even if it's an orderly duopoly until the robotic vehicles first enter the fray. But for now, dreams of multi-player markets may be fading.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

I posted this a few months ago.


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## kevink (Apr 18, 2016)

Jay Dean said:


> Read about it in the Wall Street Journal today, I would bet on Lyft being owned by GM, GM is at least seeing the future of where things are going (with automated cars). Lyft strikes a chord with this generation..I know I hear about it all the time after they pulled out of Austin and drive people for other companies, funny how a product can resonate with people. Just my theory


I don't see GM investing $500 million then being willing to walk away and let it collapse. GM execs talk constantly about the idea of redefining "personal mobility." I think they see Lyft as one of the "vehicles" that will help that happen. Don't forget that GM already has launched its own car sharing platform in select markets. I suspect they are going to want to have a hand in the ridesharing side of things too. Lyft would seem a likely launching point for that.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

I see a GM and Didi partnership starting soon.


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## DexNex (Apr 18, 2015)

observer said:


> View attachment 46519
> 
> 
> I posted this a few months ago.


I wholeheartedly agree with you.


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## Optimus Uber (Oct 7, 2014)

Jo3030 said:


> Lyft is reportedly working with M&A firm Qatalyst Partners https://wp.me/p5hvhT-8lFhby @thekenyeung
> 
> Lyft could be looking to be acquired as reports have surfaced suggesting that the on-demand car service has enlisted the help of Qatalyst Partners, a firm known for facilitating mergers and acquisitions. The company declined to comment on the report.
> 
> ...


GM didn't buy sidecars leftovers. GM put $500 million in Lyft. They may be looking for additional funding in exchange for a stake in the company. But saying they are selling it, is going out on a ledge considering GM has a stake in it. They're just raising money just like uber does.

At least lyft isn't borrowing money from sub-prime lenders like uber is.


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## Uberdancer (Mar 25, 2016)




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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

June 29, 2016

Here's an update that expands on what's been posted thus far. This Bloomberg article goes into the number of Rides, Drivers, Passengers, and Revenue, Lyft is generating. May was a record month for Lyft in several key measurements. But, the company is feeling *intense pressure*, due to UBER steadily notching up its "competitive intensity", according to "insider memos" sent from Lyft to it's investors.

Here is the Bloomberg Article: *http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...vestors-to-expect-no-growth-in-rides-for-june*


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## UBERBUS_LA (Jul 9, 2015)

and Lyft app is as shitty as it was two years ago. I hate Lyft and their rating system sucks.


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## Uberbrethren (Feb 25, 2016)

observer said:


> I see a GM and Didi partnership starting soon.


Think you are correct.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

macchiato said:


> Now on Forbes.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrog...deshare-wars-may-be-over-mostly/#2b4ad5671f67
> 
> ...


Very interesting article, but not really a revelation. Business 101 graduates would know that Lyft never did have, does not now have, nor ever will have a snowballs's chance in hell of successfully competing head to head, directly with Uber on Uber's terms. The _only _chance Lyft had was to avoid direct competition with Uber and try to co-exist as a niche player, catering to those customers who wanted a non-Uberlike experience.

The moment Lyft decided to copy Uber in every way and reposition itself as an Uber clone, from the copycat pricing right down to the screwing of drivers on Line rides as Uber does with Pool, Lyft sealed its own fate. I find it incredible that the MBAs on Lyft's managment teams, steering committees etc would even have attempted to change course to one of direct collision with Uber. Dumb, dumb, dumb.


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

If Lyft went down to 15% commission AND rebranded away from that stupid mustache and the pink color they would crush Uber.


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

The problem isn't the amount of drivers however. The issue is that drivers have is that it's not as busy as Uber. There is just too much supply and not enough demand. So while drivers say they like driving for Lyft because there are so many drivers out there, they aren't making as much as they could than driving for Uber.

Lyft is losing the numbers war. Seems like what happened to the Sega Dreamcast of years past. People loved their games and the system, but they were losing to Sony on sheer volume of customer base and quit the war early. Sega went on to become just a software developer and exited the hardware market altogether.


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## Zoplay (Jun 17, 2016)

yucklyftline said:


> I drive for lyft full time, I have few complaints compared to uber. I make more driving for lyft also because of pdb and tips. But uber stepped up its game this past week offering an extra thousand for 320 rides in a month. That's an extra 250 per week, ON TOP of everything else. No response from lyft, except this news


Lyft was not good and we can't compare it with uber since it was having lot of complaints that was registered by their own passengers..


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## villetta (Feb 11, 2016)

AllenChicago said:


> Funny.. one of my sister-in-laws said this weekend that she's making far more money driving for Lyft in San Francisco than Uber. She totally quit driving for Uber last month. It's fascinating how some drivers can't do well with one company in a given market, while other drivers do great.
> 
> Wish I could find the Lyft financials. Is their overhead that much more than Ubers? That's hard to imagine. Perhaps the company is not run as efficiently as Uber.


There's an article out from May (I think) stating"Lyft promised investors they wouldn't lose more than $50 million a month in the US". It's saved on my computer, but you should easily find it with an easy search.


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## Snowtop (Nov 11, 2014)

Lyft missed a golden opportunity last January when Uber slashed prices in 100 markets and Lyft followed. In our market so many drivers quit driving Uber or only drove during surge we saw an almost constant surge going.

If Lyft had held steady at there price and promoted a no-surge policy, Lyft rarely surges in this market anyway, they might have taken a chunk of the Uber market share. As it was I quit driving Lyft when they lowered there price and saw no chance of surge.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

Riders are the cash cows, everything they do is geared towards accommodating the rider. They need better response times so riders don't have to wait so they spend money on new driver incentives.
Riders will take the bus instead of spending 1/2 of the cost of a cab, lower the price to compete with bus fare.

Here's a taxi fare finder website - I picked two places at random in Columbus Ohio (where the fare finder operates)








What's bullshit about this $28 number is with traffic, it could be as high as $50
The same trip, using Lyft's webpage:









The cost per minute is only 17¢ with Lyft, so there's no way it's going to get anywhere near $50 in traffic. Even if it took twice as long, a 40 minute charge with Lyft is only $7 to the rider.

So they are not trying to compete with taxi's, not at less than half the price. They are trying to give private rides to people for bus fare.










I know $2.75 is not $13, but the bus will not come to where you are to pick you up, you have to go to where it stops and the bus does not go to your destination, it goes near your destination, maybe. You might have to transfer. That extra $10 buys some convenience. 
I have picked up many riders that say they needed a ride because they missed the bus. 
We are the second choice for bus riders. We are less than half the cost of a taxi. Riders think we are overpaid.

The death of my ride share came when I talked with a guy that added up his car expenses and determined it was cheaper for him to commute by Lyft, use Lyft for everywhere he needed to go, and rent a car for vacations. Annually he was saving hundreds of dollars. ($300 month car payment, fuel, maintenance, we all know the per mile cost to drive...) His Lyft bill was less than his monthly car payment, and he got a chauffeur out of the deal. He can sit in the back and read the paper on the way to work.


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## SMOTY (Oct 6, 2015)

yucklyftline said:


> I drive for lyft full time, I have few complaints compared to uber. I make more driving for lyft also because of pdb and tips. But uber stepped up its game this past week offering an extra thousand for 320 rides in a month. That's an extra 250 per week, ON TOP of everything else. No response from lyft, except this news


I honesty don't see this would be much better 320 rides per month ? Well at least here in Orange County... For pdb you need 60 rides here. Their done with hourly guarantees for now but if they still had them I definitely be making more than extra 250 a week. It just sounds like you'd be working real hard for those 320!!! So let's say 60x4 weeks that's 240 rides to get PDB that's anywhere from 125-175 a week extra plus 10% every week in tips that's 150-250 a week extra now if we had hourly incentives. That would be 100-200 a week on top of all your fares and tips!!!

I just hope LYFT stays a competitor!


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## Manotas (Dec 2, 2015)

observer said:


> I see a GM and Didi partnership starting soon.


Gidi? If they keep treating the drivers like Lyft or better then I'll drive for them


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

Maybe Juno can buy it.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

DieselkW said:


> Riders are the cash cows, everything they do is geared towards accommodating the rider. They need better response times so riders don't have to wait so they spend money on new driver incentives.
> Riders will take the bus instead of spending 1/2 of the cost of a cab, lower the price to compete with bus fare.
> 
> Here's a taxi fare finder website - I picked two places at random in Columbus Ohio (where the fare finder operates)
> ...


I'm not sure this really is true in the real world, at least not on a large scale basis.

Most people work farther away from their homes than a minimum Lyft/Uber fare.
My son had to take a Lyft to work the other day and it cost him 10 dllrs. So, a daily round trip would be 20 dllrs not including tips or possible surge charges. He quickly realized this is not a feasible long term solution for him. He needs to get his car fixed.

As you said in your post. U/L is a second choice.

Bus riders won't switch over until prices drop to very close or lower than bus prices. U/L has a way to go unless the pax lives very close to work. A bus fare is the same wether you are going one mile or twenty. With U/L this is not the case. The farther you go the more you pay.

BTW, for comparison purposes, the bus fare where I live is $1.25.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

That's where UberPool and LyftLine were supposed to be God-sends. Only problem is that U/L completely screwed the driver in keeping the revenue from the pax. Driver gets paid for one trip, U/L get paid not only the 20% from x number of trips, but x number of booking/trust & safety fees.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

JimS said:


> That's where UberPool and LyftLine were supposed to be God-sends. Only problem is that U/L completely screwed the driver in keeping the revenue from the pax. Driver gets paid for one trip, U/L get paid not only the 20% from x number of trips, but x number of booking/trust & safety fees.


Yupp, even on Lyftline and Uberpool,the prices would still be too high for a daily commute. Unless you lived/worked in a compact city like San Francisco or maybe New York City.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

observer said:


> My son had to take a Lyft to work the other day and it cost him 10 dllrs. So, a daily round trip would be 20 dllrs not including tips or possible surge charges. He quickly realized this is not a feasible long term solution for him. He needs to get his car fixed.


$20 round trip for 5 days/week is $400/month for Lyft.

Let's look at your son's cost:
What's his car payment? Mine is $350.00.
Gas for a round trip commute is $2.50 a day @ 20mpg? That's another $50 a month. (Based on a $20 round trip = 20 miles?)
Oil, insurance, tires, etc.... all that comes to ???? perhaps another $100 a month. (My insurance alone is $750/year)
Where I live, Lyft costs 70¢ a mile + 14¢ a minute.

If you take the average 30 mph, it costs about $1/mile to ride Lyft.

So, just spitballing here... car payment + gas + insurance + routine maintenance = +/-$500 month? That's a savings of $1200/year and pays for any rental car use.

If he "needs" to get his car fixed, then the $20 round trip cost is in ADDITION to his car payment and maintenance costs. In my story, the guy sold his car and took Lyft INSTEAD of owning a car.

What are your son's monthly cost to own a car? What's YOUR monthly cost to own a vehicle that results in a better than 4.6 rating from passengers?


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

DieselkW said:


> $20 round trip for 5 days/week is $400/month for Lyft.
> 
> Let's look at your son's cost:
> What's his car payment? Mine is $350.00.
> ...


"20 dollars a day for round trip/400 dollars a month."

Doesn't include tips or surge fares. Just a two dollar tip per ride adds up to an additional 20 dllrs per week/80 dllrs a month. If he did use Lyft daily, without tipping, his rating would certainly drop and he would have difficulty getting picked up. Surge fares are an uncertainty.

His car is paid for, it's an older car bought cash from a little old lady from Pasadena... JK.
But it might as well have been, turns out it was owned by the son of the librarian in my elementary school. (RIP Mrs. P.) 115K miles, driven about 25 miles a day for commute with another car as an alternate.

He did get his car fixed. It had a bad water pump, cost hundred bucks to get it fixed. Other than that the car is in excellent shape, maintained by the same mechanic since new. The mechanic happened to tip me off it was available. This car will easily last another 100k miles. Tires will last at least a couple years if not longer.

Insurance costs are minimal, we pay bout 80 bux a month for three drivers, two cars. Just minimum CA required liability.

Gas expenses are a little high, and so far probably his biggest expense. He's getting about twenty miles per gallon. So about three dllrs per day/15 dllrs per week/60 dllrs per month, just for commuting to work.

So he is looking to spend roughly a hundred bux a month for gas and insurance.

If we used the 400 bux a month Lyft expense, deducted his expense of 100 dllrs per month now, he saves 3,600 a year owning his own car, minus maintenance costs. In two years, he'll have saved well over 6,000 dllrs, assuming 1200 in maintenance, and still have a car to sell either to the junk yard or the public and then use that money for a down payment on another car.

Last but not least. IT'S HIS CAR  He loves that thing like he loves his dog. I know he is an atypical millenial.

I do see where it makes sense for your pax and others like him but I just don't see where "rideshare" makes sense to a lot of people yet.

Once cities start allowing 7-9 pax driverless vans that coordinate destinations before hand, this will change.

This would be true car pooling and would probably leave U/L with a much smaller market.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

macchiato said:


> I don't think they are hurting. If anything Uber is going through a lot of investor funds faster than Lyft is spending theirs.
> 
> Best case scenario, I think both companies are barely making a profit, however I remember reading somewhere that Uber is losing tons because they are spending so much on drivers.


Uber is not making a profit in 2015. Article was written in Jan of 2016. http://www.forbes.com/sites/brianso...-huge-growth-even-bigger-losses/#4a1ed1e55c99


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

I wasn't trying to get your son to buy into the "ditch the car and use Lyft", but some people are doing it.
Now, your son's car is too old to ride share with and he's obviously on your insurance policy skewing the numbers for the average car owner.

No Lyft driver knows at time of rating the passenger if there was a tip left on the app. If you go back and look, I never mentioned Uber, and any Uber driver that rates low for lack of tipping is fighting a losing battle. 95% of Uber riders don't tip, they're literally told it's not required.

So, if your son was a more independent millennial, paying for his own car and expenses, and we use cars comparable to the Lyft requirements for age and maintenance, he would be looking at $500 month (more or less) in car related expenses. 

Using Lyft for $400 a month, and splitting the cost of "entertainment" rides with his friends, he could easily save $1000 annually which goes a long way to paying for those times you need a rental.

I'm just saying, Lyft is so cheap, many people with car loans and $50/month in insurance can save money by putting miles on some other guy's car.


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## Andy Davis (May 7, 2016)

yucklyftline said:


> Does uber drop rates to increase rideshare, or to eventually become a steadfast competitor of public transportation? Or, playing devils advocate, to run lyft out of business?
> 
> Wasn't lyft the first company that skirted laws and made it possible for non-commercial drivers to transport using their own vehicles? UberX was introduced months later because uberblack was in jeopardy. So, as far as all of us, lyft came before uber. And it's lyft these days who is the cheaper alternative to pax. Maybe Uber set the rates so low, lyft has seen the writing on the wall. Instead of ending up with sidecar, maybe now's a great time to cash in.
> 
> Possible uber RAISES their rates? Or keeps them the same. If rates dropped below $1 with no surge and no incentives, they'd lose me as a driver.


100% agree


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## yucklyftline (Mar 23, 2016)

Andy Davis said:


> 100% agree


Check out this documentary on yt, explains how ridesharing started, inevitably because taxi service took a turn for the worse


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## MattyMikey (Aug 19, 2015)

DieselkW said:


> $20 round trip for 5 days/week is $400/month for Lyft.
> 
> Let's look at your son's cost:
> What's his car payment? Mine is $350.00.
> ...


Yeah for people who ditch for Rideshare generally live in big cities like downtown Seattle, San Francisco, LA. Many times they have to pay for parking that can be $200+ a month. So I can see how it makes sense for people that live in downtown and work fairly close to do it. I live 15 miles from my main job so for me it would not benefit me. But it does many.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

DieselkW said:


> I wasn't trying to get your son to buy into the "ditch the car and use Lyft", but some people are doing it.
> Now, your son's car is too old to ride share with and he's obviously on your insurance policy skewing the numbers for the average car owner.
> 
> No Lyft driver knows at time of rating the passenger if there was a tip left on the app. If you go back and look, I never mentioned Uber, and any Uber driver that rates low for lack of tipping is fighting a losing battle. 95% of Uber riders don't tip, they're literally told it's not required.
> ...


I think you are right, "some" people are doing it but I'm thinking not many.

When my son started to work here locally (he lived and worked in another city on his own for a year), we talked about getting to/from work. I suggested buying his own car and downloading the Lyft app for a backup. I specifically told him about the tipping difference between Uber and Lyft.

I started to think about this and of each of my sons five closest friends, all have their own paid for cars (one of them has three cars) and don't use U/L, that I have seen.

Most do live with their parents. So their expenses are low. But they all work and save their money. None of the 10 plus kids have a car with a payment. Maybe my boys and their friends are an anamoly. In my own generation 4 brothers one sister, only the sister has a car on payments the rest of us own our cars outright. Debt for a car has not been a priority for us.

My sons car is too old to rideshare. It is fully paid for and he has no outstanding debt. He is able to set aside half his check every month for savings. He is saving to buy his own house and a trip to Europe next year. The rest of his money is spent on paying for his bills and he contributes to the family expenses.

He has no need for a newer car at this time, maybe later when he has his own home he will look at buying a newer car. For now he is very happy with the car he bought.

85% of the population has never used "ride share".

Of the 15% that have used "rideshare", only 30% use "rideshare" daily or weekly.

Lyft might make sense for a few nights out on the town or an occasional emergency but as a daily commute it is still priced too high.


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## jdjd (Jan 19, 2016)

macchiato said:


> One of the problems of Lyft's rating system is that if a pax *or *driver rates either a 3 or lower, they won't get matched again. While this may be good for the drivers, it screws up the pax request system because now they have effectively taken a driver off the road for this pax. Once they do this enough times (more so for drivers than pax), it creates a faux shortage of cars on the road.


I really doubt that is the affecting the availability of drivers much for those pax, since there are so many other drivers out there. I think they are losing due to marketing. As far as the services provided by either company, they are pretty much the same from the customer's stand point (some prefer over another, and some features might be better on one or the other). However, if you ask around, Uber is just more well know.



macchiato said:


> The problem isn't the amount of drivers however. The issue is that drivers have is that it's not as busy as Uber. There is just too much supply and not enough demand. So while drivers say they like driving for Lyft because there are so many drivers out there, they aren't making as much as they could than driving for Uber.
> 
> Lyft is losing the numbers war. Seems like what happened to the Sega Dreamcast of years past. People loved their games and the system, but they were losing to Sony on sheer volume of customer base and quit the war early. Sega went on to become just a software developer and exited the hardware market altogether.


^^^ same thoughts


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## jdjd (Jan 19, 2016)

observer said:


> Most do live with their parents. So their expenses are low. But they all work and save their money. None of the 10 plus kids have a car with a payment. Maybe my boys and their friends are an anamoly. In my own generation 4 brothers one sister, only the sister has a car on payments the rest of us own our cars outright. Debt for a car has not been a priority for us.
> 
> My sons car is too old to rideshare. It is fully paid for and he has no outstanding debt. He is able to set aside half his check every month for savings. He is saving to buy his own house and a trip to Europe next year. The rest of his money is spent on paying for his bills and he contributes to the family expenses.


good advice to young generations


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

macchiato said:


> Now on Forbes.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrog...deshare-wars-may-be-over-mostly/#2b4ad5671f67
> 
> ...


Realize ,that upon United Kingdoms exit from " European Union " all companies values have dropped.

The stock market has taken a plunge. Paper wealth was lost by all.

The trickle down reduction of jobs globally is on the way ,to shore up falling corporate valuations.

All of this, makes securing future investment funds much more difficult.

Who needs an Uber/ Lyft tax loss,when regular markets are providing it ?

How low will it go ?

How many current " part timers" will suddenly find driving as their only income source in a shrinking market due to global recession ?

Potential tough times ahead.


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## DriverX (Aug 5, 2015)

If uber buys them out I doubt much changes for drivers. Lyft has pretty much become uber anyway. 

Lyft blew it by taking away destinations and implementing Line and all the other uber tactics that drivers hate. If they showed themselves to be truly different and driver friendly they could be taking drivers from uber but Lyft blew it they bacame more uber like and I rarely drive for them now. Why hassle with 2 apps when their money sucks. looks like the incentives are back in SD, guess I wasn't the only one that quit driving for them when they removed them.


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## MattyMikey (Aug 19, 2015)

DriverX said:


> If uber buys them out I doubt much changes for drivers. Lyft has pretty much become uber anyway.
> 
> Lyft blew it by taking away destinations and implementing Line and all the other uber tactics that drivers hate. If they showed themselves to be truly different and driver friendly they could be taking drivers from uber but Lyft blew it they bacame more uber like and I rarely drive for them now. Why hassle with 2 apps when their money sucks. looks like the incentives are back in SD, guess I wasn't the only one that quit driving for them when they removed them.


I have a feeling Uber purchasing Lyft is not in the cards. I would think with all the bad publicity and court/municipality actions the government would block as a monopoly. Juno or GM would be my guess. GM has enough money to give Uber a hard time. Uber does not have much cash or credit compared to GM. GM could change the system to be pro-drivers (meaning driver retention rates and even driver acquisition costs) could be reduced to nill. Trust me if GM would make the rates 10 to 20 percent less than Taxi rates and do no surge, and only charge 10 percent commission then drivers would flock to them and tell Uber to get ****ed. Uber does not tend to realize their over inflated valuation rests on its drivers just as much as riders. If not enough available drivers the riders will choose the competitor that has the capacity. Uber in theory if this "new company" works really hard on making rates fair and gives the drivers all the other perks (like tips, see destination, pay for mileage to pickup) Uber could be done quickly.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

tohunt4me said:


> Realize ,that upon United Kingdoms exit from " European Union " all companies values have dropped.
> 
> The stock market has taken a plunge. Paper wealth was lost by all.
> 
> ...


I don't know... the thing to remember is that market analysts, market predictors and the like are herd animals. They are easily spooked by change; any change, and once one or two get spooked and start running, they all do. That's what's been happening since the referendum.

Markets always overreact, on both micro and macro levels. But there's already been a market bounce with several markets recovering from the initial shock, and the pound : dollar drop was very mild indeed; just a few percentage points below its recent levels.

Switzerland and Norway are both proof that countries in Europe do not need to be EU members in order to be economically strong. In fact, both countries' recent GDP growths have outperformed that of the EU since the great recession. So no, there won't be any long term economic doom & gloom in the UK. Europe or the world. It'll all blow over soon enough. Storm in a teacup.

Finally someone in the media has written a sensible article about what's going to happen post - Brexit:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/28/opinions/brexit-overreaction-lessons-lynn/


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## DriverX (Aug 5, 2015)

MattyMikey said:


> I have a feeling Uber purchasing Lyft is not in the cards. I would think with all the bad publicity and court/municipality actions the government would block as a monopoly. Juno or GM would be my guess. GM has enough money to give Uber a hard time. Uber does not have much cash or credit compared to GM. GM could change the system to be pro-drivers (meaning driver retention rates and even driver acquisition costs) could be reduced to nill. Trust me if GM would make the rates 10 to 20 percent less than Taxi rates and do no surge, and only charge 10 percent commission then drivers would flock to them and tell Uber to get &%[email protected]!*ed. Uber does not tend to realize their over inflated valuation rests on its drivers just as much as riders. If not enough available drivers the riders will choose the competitor that has the capacity. Uber in theory if this "new company" works really hard on making rates fair and gives the drivers all the other perks (like tips, see destination, pay for mileage to pickup) Uber could be done quickly.


OK but the problem is that Lyft isn't really worth anything yet to anyone besides Uber and a few investors, and it probably won't be. SO who would want to take on that risk when it's smarter to just invest in Lyft and have a stake in case Lyft actually becomes a better bet than Uber. I don't think GM want to run a ride share company it sorta defeats the purpose of being an auto maker. WHo knows what their intentions were when they invested. THey probably need something to do with profits and this was a good short term investment if they can sell more cars through Lyft. Or maybe they fear Uber and wanted to slow ubers roll.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

MattyMikey said:


> I have a feeling Uber purchasing Lyft is not in the cards. I would think with all the bad publicity and court/municipality actions the government would block as a monopoly. Juno or GM would be my guess. GM has enough money to give Uber a hard time. Uber does not have much cash or credit compared to GM. GM could change the system to be pro-drivers (meaning driver retention rates and even driver acquisition costs) could be reduced to nill. Trust me if GM would make the rates 10 to 20 percent less than Taxi rates and do no surge, and only charge 10 percent commission then drivers would flock to them and tell Uber to get &%[email protected]!*ed. Uber does not tend to realize their over inflated valuation rests on its drivers just as much as riders. If not enough available drivers the riders will choose the competitor that has the capacity. Uber in theory if this "new company" works really hard on making rates fair and gives the drivers all the other perks (like tips, see destination, pay for mileage to pickup) Uber could be done quickly.


The thing UBER utterly FAILS at
Is MISERABLE DRIVERS CREATE A MISERABLE EXPERIENCE.

Keep chipping away at the drivers UBER.

All the puppies in the world won't restore image.

G.M. & G.M.A.C. has done well since the taxpayer funded Government Bailout.
G.M.A.C. would offer drivers 10% off on new G.M. vehicles to be showcased.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Very interesting article, but not really a revelation. Business 101 graduates would know that Lyft never did have, does not now have, nor ever will have a snowballs's chance in hell of successfully competing head to head, directly with Uber on Uber's terms. The _only _chance Lyft had was to avoid direct competition with Uber and try to co-exist as a niche player, catering to those customers who wanted a non-Uberlike experience.
> 
> *The moment Lyft decided to copy Uber in every way and reposition itself as an Uber clone, from the copycat pricing right down to the screwing of drivers on Line rides as Uber does with Pool, Lyft sealed its own fate. I find it incredible that the MBAs on Lyft's managment teams, steering committees etc would even have attempted to change course to one of direct collision with Uber. Dumb, dumb, dumb*.


Excellent explanation of what's ailing Lyft, elelegido! But, you seemed surprised that Lyft's MBA-educated managers are making DUMB decisions. I guess you didn't see the July 2014 spy-photo of them, deciding which way to go next!









The core team couldn't come up with a strategy, so Lyft management decided to simply follow Uber...and emphasize Pink mustaches to differentiate the two.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

Dang said:


> Who cares lyft sucks anyways


Until uber sinks out too, any "ride share" driver or user should care because monopoly ain't cool



macchiato said:


> It's shocking how Lyft went from going toe-to-toe in SF and LA just a few months ago to how they are struggling in those seasoned markets is scary. Uber albeit unpopular by most drivers have actually been able to keep and maintain drivers with so many promotions just goes to show you how massive Uber's warchest is.


they are brutal. (Uber) you see how they are the company that gets sh*t done. they do a better job with marketing and branding. (Lyft) pink mustache was a way to get people talking (when they first appeared) but having a "friendlier" and more "casual" car service versus the tag line your own personal driver?

uber sold themselves as the better car service and that's how they're able to raise more money too. They sold themselves to riders. They sold themselves to investors. Lyft? Lyft is the company that is trying to be so friendly and not aggressive and "opposite of uber" (at least that's the impression I get) that they forget to ask for the business and just thinks that being friendly will get them far. It got them halfway. Decent.
But now they're seeing that they weren't proactive enough and weren't constantly self reflecting and evaluating how, they could do better. Uber wasn't afraid to come out with a new logo. When is Lyft redoing theirs? It's horrendous even compared to the old uber logo, or new one if that's the worse of the two for you.



UBERBUS_LA said:


> and Lyft app is as shitty as it was two years ago. I hate Lyft and their rating system sucks.


Lyft doesn't have some of the components that uber has in their app. Having talked to a start up (not so start up anymore but not ipo big) that helps them with one of their widget. But lyft doesn't use it. So maybe lyft ought to hit the battery more, or of the likes and find the best companies that will help propel themselves. If you can't do something yourself in house (like Travis and the new uber logo) then outsource it but make sure it's the absolute best for the buck. Seeing how lyft presents itself as a company, I just don't see them hustling as hard, or negotiating or keeping the QA as tightly reined as uber would aka Travis and his anal compulsive personality



observer said:


> Yupp, even on Lyftline and Uberpool,the prices would still be too high for a daily commute. Unless you lived/worked in a compact city like San Francisco or maybe New York City.


Nope. In SF, you can buy a pass for $83/month flat, that allows you to take endless rides on both the muni and Bart (two major transportation companies) within the confines of city and county of SF. If you wanted to go to the airport from somewhere like, Powell st station (center of downtown SF); one way will cost you $8.95. That's less then a pool ride to the airport guaranteed, never mind x. And it takes you right into the airport. As in, step off the station, roll down to beep out of the station and the airport door is less then 3 feet away, in front of you. There's no need to deal with underpaid, overly depressed/aggressive/angry (because they're not being paid enough and feel like they're stuck in between a rock and hard place) uber drivers.

I, personally, having taken uber pool, x, select and black uber. It is about $25 on x, $90 on black, $15-$17 on pool and select was accidental for something else, I never took it from my home to work--but it's kinda ridiculous for a 3 mile ride (in a 7x7 city).


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

sellkatsell44 said:


> Until uber sinks out too, any "ride share" driver or user should care because monopoly ain't cool
> 
> they are brutal. (Uber) you see how they are the company that gets sh*t done. they do a better job with marketing and branding. (Lyft) pink mustache was a way to get people talking (when they first appeared) but having a "friendlier" and more "casual" car service versus the tag line your own personal driver?
> 
> ...


I worked in SF for 8 years, never used the bus system and only once used BART. But, I remember a few of the employees used these two services. A few drove their own cars from South San Francisco and Daly City. A few car pooled in from Fairfield, Castro Valley and Vacaville.

With a pass like that, I just don't see where "rideshare" makes sense to locals and definitely doesn't make sense for the commuters.


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## SacTownDood (Apr 22, 2016)

Looking for a buyer would certainly part of the explanation of the vast reduction in driver subsidies.
The other part is Lyft's investors are screaming about the burn rate.
They need to show a potential suitor what kind of legs the business will stand on without heavy subsidies. Also guessing there's a lot of creative accounting going on, at both Uber and Lyft. Wouldn't be surprised if one of the major auditing firms comes into the picture soon....

When it comes down to valuation the only stats that are going to matter is the average daily ridership rate and profitability. Lyft has the ridership to stay viable, but as long as the fare wars continue profits will of course be nil.

The whole rideshare thing is so interesting since the only thing these companies are are glorified
illegal (?) taxi dispatchers.


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

George W. Bush has an MBA from the Harvard Business School...

Honestly, MBAs in Business Administration aren't that difficult as long as you can handle the math for statistics and finance (like doing future value of money calculations).

So, if Uber's and Lyft's valuations are all investor funds and not real property, would they be worth their book price in a buyout? I understand that Uber's investors can sell their private shares, but only with the approval of Uber's board and only to another private shareholder. I don't know if Lyft's requirements are the same. What I'm getting at is investors might pull out their stakes, thus lowering the book valuation. Just food for thought.

I'm not sure that Uber buying Lyft would fall under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act and cause governmental scrutiny about possible monopolization. Why? Because the Act, and the Clayton Act regulate interstate trade and Uber operates as different units in different cities, not as a fundamentally nationwide company (I probably didn't explain that very well). Now, if Uber is successful is getting statewide regulatory legislation passed in several states, the situation will be different as they move from serving dots on a map to entire states and regions.

Anyway, just IMHO.

P.S. What value would there be to Uber from buying Lyft besides acquiring any patents Lyft might own? If Lyft fails, Uber just takes over the small percentage of the market Lyft has without spending any money. They might do it as a defensive move to keep someone else from buying Lyft. That's really the only valid reason I can think of.

tl:dr sorry


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## Novus Caesar (Dec 15, 2015)

I still do not understand why Lyft is not in as many cities as Uber. It is not like it takes infrastructure. They are probably being destroyed by Uber from mere name recognition in most cities.


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## Novus Caesar (Dec 15, 2015)

observer said:


> I worked in SF for 8 years, never used the bus system and only once used BART. But, I remember a few of the employees used these two services. A few drove their own cars from South San Francisco and Daly City. A few car pooled in from Fairfield, Castro Valley and Vacaville.
> 
> With a pass like that, I just don't see where "rideshare" makes sense to locals and definitely doesn't make sense for the commuters.


When I lived in Jersey City the unlimited subway rides there for Jersey City/NYC was only about $100. Couldn't beat that.


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

Novus Caesar said:


> I still do not understand why Lyft is not in as many cities as Uber. It is not like it takes infrastructure. They are probably being destroyed by Uber from mere name recognition in most cities.


Makes one wonder how profitable rideshare truly is for two companies racing to the bottom in a price war.


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

Uber expanded so quickly it has become the household name like how Kleenex owned the tissue market. 

How does Pepsi (Lyft) compete in a world ruled by Coke (Uber)? Can't beat Coke on price. They can only hope to be the best second place.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

macchiato said:


> How does Pepsi (Lyft) compete in a world ruled by Coke (Uber)?


This is a very concise and apt comparison - the two are virtually identical from a consumer standpoint, but there are fierce loyalists on both sides... my wife will not drink diet Coke, only diet Pepsi. She says she can taste the difference, I don't give a damn - cold and wet and bubbly is good enough, but I prefer the versions without fake sugars, and if I have a choice, I'll grab the one without caffeine.

When I order a ride, it's Lyft. I would not use any of my own money to enrich Goober. Not gonna do it. I want to reward the company that treated me better when I was a driver.

Yes, Uber is the Kleenex of ride sharing. Very appropriate, they're good enough to blow my nose on. They're the "Scott" of t.p., good enough to wipe ....
They're the Q-tip of cotton swabs ... you get my drift.

Lyft, are you listening? If you want to make it in this market, you cannot be "me too". There's got to be a difference that is not about riding in the front and fist bumping the driver.

Instead of giving X% of drivers a PDB, give them all 90% of the fare, no restrictions, no insane number of rides per week. Every driver gets 90% of every fare. Test market it for a month in a half dozen cities if you're afraid of losing too much money.

Drivers will drop Uber like their app was on fire. Uber customers will see 15 minute pick up times because of scarcity of Uber drivers and switch to Lyft.

Dominating the market, at this stage of ride share maturity, is about increasing the pleasure of the experience for drivers AND riders.

When there's nothing available for Uber riders except Select cars at twice the Lyft price.... Lyft will gain market share. Uber will be the "New Coke" of 2016


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

macchiato said:


> Uber expanded so quickly it has become the household name like how Kleenex owned the tissue market.
> 
> How does Pepsi (Lyft) compete in a world ruled by Coke (Uber)? Can't beat Coke on price. They can only hope to be the best second place.


Pepsi OWNS burger King,taco Bell,pizza hut, and vending machine groups.

Pepsi injects it's product.


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## ND379 (Mar 29, 2016)

Oh man....if Lyft only took 10% of fees, still let the driver keep 100% of tips, and continued to cap their surge....no way would Uber survive here.

Passengers would be looking at 15-20 minute wait times for an uber driver with a 5.0x surge. No one would choose that over Lyft.


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

If Uber hit a surge as high as 5 we'd see driver switch over for the money. 

I've talked to many pax and asked why they chose Lyft over Lyft and I've gotten responses as simple as "it was cheaper at the time."

Uber has such high demand that it surged more and faster than Lyft. When you're the second choice in rideshare because the other guy is too expensive, you're considered second rate.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Question for everybody.

Who founded Lyft ?
THINK FAST.
WHO founded UBER ?

Promotion.

The media fell in love with UBER.

Accident ?


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## ND379 (Mar 29, 2016)

The driver may switch over, but the passenger would never put in the request. Not when they went on Lyft and found a closer ride for cheaper.


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## MattyMikey (Aug 19, 2015)

tohunt4me said:


> Pepsi OWNS burger King,taco Bell,pizza hut, and vending machine groups.
> 
> Pepsi injects it's product.


PepsiCo does not own Taco Bell, Pizza Hut anymore. They are part of Yum! Group and PepsiCo no longer owns it.

They never owned Burger King. In fact, Burger King has the Coke Machines (those fancy ones you can make a whole bunch of nasty combinations).


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

DieselkW said:


> Riders are the cash cows, everything they do is geared towards accommodating the rider. They need better response times so riders don't have to wait so they spend money on new driver incentives.
> Riders will take the bus instead of spending 1/2 of the cost of a cab, lower the price to compete with bus fare.
> 
> Here's a taxi fare finder website - I picked two places at random in Columbus Ohio (where the fare finder operates)
> ...


That 7.9 mile trip (by cab) would cost ~23 bucks in Portland,Oregon. No surge rates to rip off a passenger.

Downtown Portland to PDX airport is around $3 to $5 more than Uber. It's funny when the Goober fan club talks of " half the cost of a cab" while joyfully accepting a surge trip for 80 bucks (or more) the the airport.

The drivers own the cab company I'm with. I pay a flat $37.00 day for my cab. That's what Uber/Lyft are competing against. Plus I have a 24-7-365 insurance policy I don't have to worry about.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

phillipzx3 said:


> That 7.9 mile trip (by cab) would cost ~23 bucks in Portland,Oregon. No surge rates to rip off a passenger.


From Portland Oregon Uber, 7.9 mile trip, Mapquest tells me from the airport to NE 61st and Halsey is 7.8 miles.
UberX quotes $13-16.
You quote $23 by cab, and I believe you. UberTaxi quotes $23-30.

You win, it's not half. It's close, but not half so no one should ever say that ride share is half the cost of a taxi because it's only (13/23=44%)
Unless there's more than 1 rider. Taxi's charge more for extra passengers right? 
Or they want to stop along the way and have the driver wait.... what's the per minute charge for a Portland Taxi? I bet it's more than ride share per minute charge.

Look, I am on your side, ride share driving is brutally low wage and they are kicking your teeth in with their pricing. I'm all for raising the rate so drivers can make a living. But you brought up my post and then said "goober fan club". That hurts. That's insulting. Them's fightin' words!! ;-)


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## Djc (Jan 6, 2016)

Luber4.9 said:


> Lyft needs to show the PrimeTime on the request to the driver.
> 
> Lyft needs to reverse their decision to hide the destination.
> 
> ...


This is one of Lyfts major problems. It did a great job getting more customers and drivers over the last year so much so that in the major market's Uber was consistently high surge that sure some drivers would profit from and some die hard uber passengers would still use but overall number of pax requests significantly went down as they had free Lyft rides or low or no primetime on Lyft. Then instead of keeping what made Lyft better for drivers it took away PDB for many drivers 2010 or older cars, stopped showing destination, reduced amount and frequent of hourly guarantees, changed Lyft line to Uber's pool rate instead of regular lyft rate, hired so many drivers that almost no primetime and still refused to guarantee primtime fare when in a primetime zone on map or at least show primetime on request, then many normal uber passengers started to use lyft regularly and didn't tip so all of what made Lyft better disappeared in last few months. At same time uber was like screw this and started offering awesome incentives to driver's to keep them on Uber for busy hours and not use Lyft or both thus reducing surge and keeping their client base. They also started giving out free and discounted rides to existing customers (a first this year withot refferals). Lyft needs to go back to being a better platform for drivers and needs to keep up with the Uber incentives but they need the money to do that. Otherwise Uber will win. I used to love Lyft but no incentive to drive for them in peak hours right now.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Lyft is just as shit as Uber, but I hope they stay in the game. If Uber treats drivers like crap when there is an alternative platform for drivers, imagine what things will be like when they're the only show in town.


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## Djc (Jan 6, 2016)

Djc said:


> This is one of Lyfts major problems. It did a great job getting more customers and drivers over the last year so much so that in the major market's Uber was consistently high surge that sure some drivers would profit from and some die hard uber passengers would still use but overall number of pax requests significantly went down as they had free Lyft rides or low or no primetime on Lyft. Then instead of keeping what made Lyft better for drivers it took away PDB for many drivers 2010 or older cars, stopped showing destination, reduced amount and frequent of hourly guarantees, changed Lyft line to Uber's pool rate instead of regular lyft rate, hired so many drivers that almost no primetime and still refused to guarantee primtime fare when in a primetime zone on map or at least show primetime on request, then many normal uber passengers started to use lyft regularly and didn't tip so all of what made Lyft better disappeared in last few months. At same time uber was like screw this and started offering awesome incentives to driver's to keep them on Uber for busy hours and not use Lyft or both thus reducing surge and keeping their client base. They also started giving out free and discounted rides to existing customers (a first this year withot refferals). Lyft needs to go back to being a better platform for drivers and needs to keep up with the Uber incentives but they need the money to do that. Otherwise Uber will win. I used to love Lyft but no incentive to drive for them in peak hours right now.


Sad thing if Uber wins drivers and passengers lose. They will increase UberX fares while increasing SRF or commission take from driver or both but keep pool the same or lower. All incentives will disappear (both drivers and passengers) and they will figure out a way to force drivers to accept pool or pay some meaninal bonus for each additional pool pick up. Yes many drivers will quit but there will be enough that have no choice in short term and will stay (some even long term as want the flexibility even if pay becomes lower than min wage after expenses).


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

MattyMikey said:


> Coke Machines (those fancy ones you can make a whole bunch of nasty combinations).


Same thing we all did as kids hitting every self serve spout.... Only more civilized. :O


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## LA Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

Called it days ago. Lyft should sell out to didi of China or have their technology acquired. They can't beat uber. All rideshare is is coded software and server hardware. Both technology and practices for the above have come so far that if code breaks, you can rollback to a stable version. Even if an entire data center is anihialated you can still route data to other centers.

As we all here know, rideshare is nothing more than a glorified taxi service. Ferry people from point a to point b. Only way lyft can ever beat über is if uber willingly gives up or the government outlaws it.

For the few here saying maybe Juno should buy out lyft.

1) they don't have the money.
2) Juno founder is in the game only to get bought out.


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## macchiato (Sep 29, 2015)

Trueman said:


> Lyft needs to do something . Their " Pink " is turning off a lot of users who won't use them because of their gay color motto .


People in the android beta say their color is now green.


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## LA Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

Trueman said:


> Lyft needs to do something . Their " Pink " is turning off a lot of users who won't use them because of their gay color motto .


Agree. More proof that Rideshare is run by a bunch of brainless millienals that think if they can back fringe groups that people would flock to them. Big difference in society from what people say and actually do which is usually the exact opposite. Like said in a previous post, the technology and just the simple sole fact of getting a person from point a to point b there is no advantage Lyft can have over Uber. It all came down to perception which of course is made by marketing, and Lyft has lost, big times while Uber's marketing was vastly more superior. If you ask me what's more boggling about Uber, the tech or the hype, I would say hype.


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

LA Cabbie said:


> Agree. More proof that Rideshare is run by a bunch of brainless millienals that think if they can back fringe groups that people would flock to them. Big difference in society from what people say and actually do which is usually the exact opposite. Like said in a previous post, the technology and just the simple sole fact of getting a person from point a to point b there is no advantage Lyft can have over Uber. It all came down to perception which of course is made by marketing, and Lyft has lost, big times while Uber's marketing was vastly more superior. If you ask me what's more boggling about Uber, the tech or the hype, I would say hype.


Like Donald Trump, Uber has remained on top by staying in the news.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Old Rocker said:


> Like Donald Trump, Uber has remained on top by staying in the news.


But like Trump, the tide is turning.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

Trueman said:


> Lyft needs to do something . Their " Pink " is turning off a lot of users who won't use them because of their gay color motto .


Most passengers tell me that they choose the company whose driver is closer. They just want to get from their current location to the next place ASAP. Out here in the Chicago suburbs, the difference between a Lyft pickup and a Uber pickup is often 10 or more minutes.


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## vesolehome (Aug 2, 2015)

AllenChicago said:


> Most passengers tell me that they choose the company whose driver is closer. They just want to get from their current location to the next place ASAP. Out here in the Chicago suburbs, the difference between a Lyft pickup and a Uber pickup is often 10 or more minutes.


Same with Detroit. 25 minute waits for Lyft is common. Uber shows unavailable to the PAX if the wait is that long. Uber promotes to us that their average time is 7 minutes to a PAX but Lyft is running better promos here. Better for the drivers and better for the riders. Lyft is trying hard in this market with GM right in our backyard.


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## AllenChicago (Nov 19, 2015)

vesolehome said:


> Same with Detroit. 25 minute waits for Lyft is common. Uber shows unavailable to the PAX if the wait is that long. Uber promotes to us that their average time is 7 minutes to a PAX but Lyft is running better promos here. Better for the drivers and better for the riders. Lyft is trying hard in this market with GM right in our backyard.


I hope your Detroit promotions don't have a 2 ride per-hour minimum, like they do here in the Chicago market. That's a killer when you have to travel 25 un-paid minutes to pick up a passenger. Particularly if that ride-request comes at 20 minutes past the top of a guarantee hour.


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## Flarpy (Apr 17, 2016)

observer said:


> http://www.wsj.com/acash flow uber-to-raise-up-to-2-billion-in-leveraged-loan-market-1465925931


Leveraged loans are usually a last resort for companies with major cashflow problems:

From http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/14/11936316/uber-leveraged-loan-two-billion-valuation-travis-kalanick

"The fact that Uber is looking to the leveraged-loan market for more cash could be interpreted as troubling times for the company. By definition, leveraged loans are often issued to companies with considerable amounts of debt. The loans carry a higher risk of default and, as a result, a leveraged loan is more costly to the borrower, according to Bain Capital.

It's just the latest financial gimmick that Uber has reached for in its unstoppable cash grab. Last February, reports surfaced that Morgan Stanley and Bank of America were encouraging clients with net worths of at least $10 million to invest in a fund call the New Rider LP, which would have directly benefited Uber. Investors aren't allowed to view any of Uber's financial information, which in essence means they are making blind bets on the company."

My prediction? Uber turns out to be the largest ponzi scheme in history and Travis spends the second half of his life in a Federal prison.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Flarpy said:


> My prediction? Uber turns out to be the largest ponzi scheme in history and Travis spends the second half of his life in a Federal prison.


As long as they can't prove he intended it to be a ponzi scheme, he'll be good to go.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

JimS said:


> As long as they can't prove he intended it to be a ponzi scheme, he'll be good to go.


Good to go ride off into the sunset with a good wad of cash.


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## MiddleClassedOut (Jun 11, 2015)

If you guys are serious about Lyft succeeding, the best thing to do is harass Uber drivers.

Like someone else said, price isn't always the deciding factor, most people also tell me they take whichever car is closer.

Ergo, keep the Uber app open on another device. Request Uber drivers to areas away from hot spots, and try to move them away from you. Most Uber drivers aren't very serious about it, and cancellations are very frustrating. Requesting a car on a surge rate and then cancelling at 4 minutes 30 seconds on a surge rate causes drivers to rage, rage, rage. Make sure you set a timer so you don't get charged.

I know in some areas Uber has moved to a 2-minute cancel policy. Probably not worth it in those areas, but I'm pretty sure that policy will not stand. Drivers can start the clock at the top of a block and then hide their car around the corner. To the GPS it looks like they were there. I'm sure in most cities the cancel fee is worth a lot more than a minimum fare. I always go for the cancels, less time and expense. After a lot of complaints from people getting charged after only 2 minutes, they will give up on that policy.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

MiddleClassedOut said:


> After a lot of complaints from people getting charged after only 2 minutes, they will give up on that policy.


I doubt it. Uber initiated its 2 minute cancellation policy because it benefits Uber. They finally realized that if a driver does 2 trips per hour, and he/she waits 5 minutes for each rider to come out, that's 10 minutes of every hour, or one sixth of their shift in which drivers are parked up, doing nothing, and therefore earning $0 for Uber.

The new stricter policy on wait time by Uber is all about retraining pax to haul ass to the curb, with a view to increasing the efficiency of the system in order to generate more profit for Uber. Reducing the wait time is the equivalent for Uber of adding more drivers to the driver pool, at a net cost of zero to them.

So I wouldn't count on the policy changing back too soon.


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## MattyMikey (Aug 19, 2015)

Is Uber using 2 minutes for cancel fee on UberX? I thought it was only for UberPool they did that.


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## MattyMikey (Aug 19, 2015)

MiddleClassedOut said:


> If you guys are serious about Lyft succeeding, the best thing to do is harass Uber drivers.
> 
> Like someone else said, price isn't always the deciding factor, most people also tell me they take whichever car is closer.
> 
> ...


You shouldn't encourage this. This is foul to do for your fellow Rideshare brethren. I can't believe you would suggest this.


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## MiddleClassedOut (Jun 11, 2015)

It's a war of all against all. We are competing against each other as well as Uber drivers.

I do it all the time, especially in Lyft heavy areas where there are some Uber drivers about. Passengers who check prices know UberPool is cheaper than Lyft Line, you've got to not give them the choice.

There's nothing unethical in being cutthroat when the companies refuse to limit the number of drivers, thus driving down everyone's earnings.

I'm probably not even going to do a full-time week until September to be honest, there's no point. The driver oversaturation/low demand is to a point where you'd need a team of about 10 people putting in fake requests all the time to have any hope of getting rides, much less a surge rate, at certain times and places. Even on Lyft you can't make $15/hr.

Uber did this to Lyft drivers for a year in San Francisco. They started it.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/11/technology/uber-fake-ride-requests-lyft/


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## MattyMikey (Aug 19, 2015)

MiddleClassedOut said:


> It's a war of all against all. We are competing against each other as well as Uber drivers.
> 
> I do it all the time, especially in Lyft heavy areas where there are some Uber drivers about. Passengers who check prices know UberPool is cheaper than Lyft Line, you've got to not give them the choice.
> 
> ...


I understand they started it, but it is still wrong. You knowing that drivers don't make much money and you sending people on wild goose trips is still ****ed up. Adding more expense to others. I understand the benefit of what you're doing but you have no class. You're just lucky this does not happen on Lyft since the pre-authorize $50.00 when a ride is ordered.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

Jo3030 said:


> Lyft is reportedly working with M&A firm Qatalyst Partners https://wp.me/p5hvhT-8lFhby @thekenyeung
> 
> Lyft could be looking to be acquired as reports have surfaced suggesting that the on-demand car service has enlisted the help of Qatalyst Partners, a firm known for facilitating mergers and acquisitions. The company declined to comment on the report.
> 
> ...


All the rideshare companies are robbing peter to pay paul. They will all eventually fold, just like Checker Cab, Yellow, and on down the line. 
There's no money in the transportation biz. If they asked and old cabbie, they'd know. Bus chartering seem to do alright, though.


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## phillipzx3 (May 26, 2015)

DieselkW said:


> From Portland Oregon Uber, 7.9 mile trip, Mapquest tells me from the airport to NE 61st and Halsey is 7.8 miles.
> UberX quotes $13-16.
> You quote $23 by cab, and I believe you. UberTaxi quotes $23-30.
> 
> ...


So mapquest is telling you it's 7.9 miles from the airport to 61 ave and Halsey, is it. Go ahead and believe that nonsense if you like.  It's MAYBE 5 miles unless you take the scenic route. 16 bucks in one of our cabs.

I'm sitting in sw Portland by OHSU. It's only 13 miles to PDX from where I'm sitting. 

We charge $2.6 per mile, $3.00 flag drop.

Uber's clock is always running. Unless I sit still for more than a few minutes, our clocks don't add a cent. I never add a per passenger fee. It's not worth the not-pick.

Waiting time is 50 cents, but I'll usually turn the clock off to save them a few bucks.

The point is that it's a false belief that Uber is half the price of a cab. In Portland, an Uber "flag drop" is $3.90 ( we're $3.00). Uber charges per mile AND per minute....so at 60 mph (or less) Uber is $1.45 (or more) just for driving down the road.
A 2 mile trip with Uber is $6.85. A 2 mile trip with us is $8.20....and we carry valid insurance. No insurance company will carry you if you tell them you Uber with your car. It's a State law.

Oh...and the best part is the city takes .50 cents of OUR flag drop to pay for the personel to monitor Uber and Lyft.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

phillipzx3 said:


> We charge $2.6 per mile,





phillipzx3 said:


> Uber is $1.45


145/260=45%

I said: "so no one should ever say that ride share is half the cost of a taxi because it's only (13/23=44%)"


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Yeah - you're not hurting Uber. You're hurting fellow drivers.


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