# California -- Why not make gig economy workers ‘dependent contractors’?



## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-11-25/gig-economy-workers-uber-labor-law-ab5
*Opinion: Why not make gig economy workers 'dependent contractors'?*

Labor will be fighting to preserve protections provided by Assembly Bill 5 while Uber, Lyft and DoorDash push a statewide ballot initiative that would exempt them in 2020. 
(Los Angeles Times)
By STEVE WESTLY
NOV. 25, 2019

3 AM
As the gig economy sweeps through more industries, many of us are benefiting from the extraordinary convenience and lower prices that companies like Uber, Lyft, Door Dash and others provide. But what about the workers?
Are Uber and other sharing-economy companies heroes for creating hundreds of thousands of jobs that provide workers with greater flexibility and control over their lives? Or are they villains who are undermining basic labor protections and increasing the societal divide between the haves and the have-nots?
The answer, of course, is both. As such, a solution should reflect the reality that gig economy workers lie somewhere between full-fledged employees and independent contractors.
Some countries, like Spain and Canada, have already tackled this question. They have established a category of worker called "dependent contractor." Under this concept, when workers earn a certain portion of their income from a single company - 75% in Spain and as high as 80% in Canada - and meet certain other criteria, they are provided intermediate protections and benefits such as notice of termination, collective bargaining and minimum rest periods that stop short of what employees are entitled to. Companies aren't required to pay benefits for someone who works only sporadically to supplement other income.
Unfortunately, California didn't follow that path.
Instead, the Legislature pushed through Assembly Bill 5, a measure that categorizes the vast majority of gig economy workers as full-time and part-time employees entitled to all the protections and benefits that such employees receive. Uber, Lyft and Door Dash, perceiving an existential threat to their business, has responded by unveiling a $90-million campaign to undo AB 5 with a statewide initiative in 2020.
The ballot initiative that Uber, Lyft and Door Dash are proposing would offer drivers guaranteed pay that is 120% of the minimum wage when they are driving, but they would not be paid while waiting for fares. It would also provide stipends to cover health insurance, 30 cents a mile and accident insurance.
Is it a good deal for gig economy workers? Many think it isn't, and many workers and organized labor will fight hard to preserve AB 5 and defeat the ballot initiative. This lays the groundwork for a political battle royale that will pit labor against business in the next statewide election with high stakes for both sides.

Instead, labor and the companies would be smart to negotiate a settlement. First, labor and the workers can probably negotiate better wages and terms in return for sparing the companies a bruising political campaign that will probably do substantial damage to their brands.
Second, it's important to remember that Uber and many other gig economy companies are not profitable. Uber is currently losing over $1 billion a quarter and is likely to have an extremely difficult time raising future rounds of capital. This is especially true if it is forced to pay higher wages and benefits - and profitability is no longer in sight. If Uber or any of these companies goes out of business, everyone loses. A negotiated compromise could obtain higher wages for workers without putting companies on the hook for full benefits for all.
California leads the global innovation economy, and we need to find ways to make this innovation work for everyone. Labor and our elected officials are right to stand up for working people and to make sure that all workers get basic protections. The challenge is finding a smart way to do that with companies that are hemorrhaging cash.
The gig economy is still new and its impacts have not yet been quantified or even fully understood. As it wrestles with this new industry, California would do well to consider innovative approaches - like a dependent contractor classification - already used in other countries. The sooner there's a resolution to this fight, the sooner we can get back to dealing with other big policy issues.
_Steve Westly is a former California state controller and managing director of the Westly Group, a venture capital firm._


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

I think the problem and reasoning why California didn’t follow that path is Uber itself.

Uber made zero good faith decisions in California until they gambled and lost. Skirting labor laws in one of the social/liberal capitols of the world is excessively foolish.


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## IR12 (Nov 11, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> I think the problem and reasoning why California didn't follow that path is Uber itself.
> 
> Uber made zero good faith decisions in California until they gambled and lost. Skirting labor laws in one of the social/liberal capitols of the world is excessively foolish.


Where is that beating a dead horse meme?


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

IR12 said:


> Where is that beating a dead horse meme?


It's only fitting that they are on strike


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> It's only fitting that they are on strike
> 
> View attachment 407256


--------------------------
Disgusting photo in your attempt to be funny, since that animal was worked to death and collapsed on a city street and died in a gutter. 
Also, what strike are you talking about ??


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

KK2929 said:


> --------------------------
> Disgusting photo in your attempt to be funny, since that animal was worked to death and collapsed on a city street and died in a gutter.
> Also, what strike are you talking about ??


Did you read anything?


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

IR12 said:


> Where is that beating a dead horse meme?


------------------
I'm curious -- did you read the article. It talks about Dependent Contractor and a new classification for Ride Share workers, already in use in Canada and Spain. 
I found the article interesting BECAUSE it presents another solution to this problem.
AB5 is not a solution to anything. Some seem to believe that bringing a Union into the mix will solve all the problems. 


TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Did you read anything?


---------------------
If you are going to talk to me -- make sense. What strike are you talking about ?


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

KK2929 said:


> ------------------
> I'm curious -- did you read the article. It talks about Dependent Contractor and a new classification for Ride Share workers, already in use in Canada and Spain.
> I found the article interesting BECAUSE it presents another solution to this problem.
> AB5 is not a solution to anything.
> ...


There is no strike, you didn't get the joke so I'm going to leave it alone.

The term hitting a dead horse comes from ignorant people working their horse to death then continuing to beat on it in hopes to get more labor from the poor creature.

Im no sure what I did to offend you but you seem very standoffish.


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

KK2929 said:


> ------------------
> I'm curious -- did you read the article. It talks about Dependent Contractor and a new classification for Ride Share workers, already in use in Canada and Spain.
> I found the article interesting BECAUSE it presents another solution to this problem.
> AB5 is not a solution to anything. Some seem to believe that bringing a Union into the mix will solve all the problems.
> ...


Bringing a union into the mix will fix all problems.

It will give us protection against false accusations, health benefits, fair pay, holiday pay, sick pay, job security and many more.

Without a union, Uber can fire us for any reason at any time, cut our pay for any reason at any time, give us none of the above benefits and basically do anything they want at any time.

It's really a no-brainer.


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## The queen 👸 (Jan 2, 2020)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> It's only fitting that they are on strike
> 
> View attachment 407256


This gif is horrible. I love horses.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

The queen &#128120; said:


> This gif is horrible. I love horses.


Sorry I didn't mean it as a cruelty to horses gif


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

KK2929 said:


> https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-11-25/gig-economy-workers-uber-labor-law-ab5
> *Opinion: Why not make gig economy workers 'dependent contractors'?*
> 
> Labor will be fighting to preserve protections provided by Assembly Bill 5 while Uber, Lyft and DoorDash push a statewide ballot initiative that would exempt them in 2020.
> ...


"Dependent Contractor" is Ubers solution.

How well have other Uber solutions benefitted drivers?


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## Cynergie (Apr 10, 2017)

In the ongoing conundrum between the _Employee vs. Independent Contractor,_ it's not about the mortal struggle of Man v. himself. But rather the fact that it remains a linguistic challenge on how to spell conundrum without a spell checker app. Just like Mississippi or Massachusetts.

Regardless, in America, the choice between these two concepts are mutually exclusive aka 100% binary. Under U.S. law, a worker is either an employee or an independent contractor. There's no third choice in the boolean comparing the two.....

So the problem with the term "Dependent contractor" is that it's a complete oxymoron. Just like "Iced tea". :roflmao:


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

sheesh. want benefits? want sick leave? want vacation days? Oh, get a full time M-F 40hr a week W2 job! Not a 'side gig'.


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

KK2929 said:


> ------------------
> Some seem to believe that bringing a Union into the mix will solve all the problems.
> 
> ---------------------
> If you are going to talk to me -- make sense. What strike are you talking about ?


i'm one of those people. it's called collective bargaining.



SHalester said:


> sheesh. want benefits? want sick leave? want vacation days? Oh, get a full time M-F 40hr a week W2 job! Not a 'side gig'.


it's not a side gig for many it's full time taxi driver. no shame in that.


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## Aubrey Jones (Jan 28, 2020)

To quote another member from here: Unions want a cut of every penny you make, politicians want union votes, taxman wants his share.....and lawyers will gas you up telling you you're a victim. The only people who always seem to get paid at the end are lawyers.
Don't fall for it.....just not too long ago your phone made calls and took calls. Now you have an opportunity to use it to make money....and everyone wants in. When they start gasing up our cars or actually doing the work, they can speak. But for now, they can sit in their comfortable offices looking at spreadsheets while wondering how many other ways they can try screwing the people over.
This is why automation and autonomy is coming.
Keep rocking the boat and autonomous will become standard....and you'll be wishing you had the good old days back.


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

what if your union charged you 2% of what you make but eliminated the pay cuts of the last year or two that resulted in you earning 30% less. they can cap the amount of drivers, negotiate your old rates back, have an unemployment fund setup plus virtually every union has a credit union.

2% vs 30% i'll take that any day. plus that 2% goes to giving you benefits such as the ones i mentioned. real benefits not a free 6 inch sub a week.

ps - automation is very, very far away. at least 15-20 years. if it's allowed any sooner they will be hacked and turned into weapons.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

got a p said:


> it's not a side gig for many it's full time taxi driver. no shame in that.


I was not implying there is shame. I salute those who do RS full time; I couldn't do it. HOWEVER, they knew getting into RS there were no benefits, that they would not be an employee. In fact, they knew the bar to become a driver is very very low and easy to clear. And once they clear it suddenly they want benefits like a W2 M-F 40hr a week job? 
My reply was, sure, that exists. You apply for a position, submit a resume and schedule an interview. and then hope for the best......


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## Aubrey Jones (Jan 28, 2020)

Rideshare wasn't designed to be a fulltime gig, though some have morphed it into that. Then again everyone has different needs. You should know what you're getting into and not expect the system to cater to your needs. You really want to be classified and treated like a full time cab driver? Spend one day at a cab depot and you'll reconsider your expectations. The irony being if you're really treated as such, you'll be out protesting being treated as such. That's why the French can't get anything done....they will protest a sandwich if they could lol.
Automation is closer than you think....and it's already happening in certain areas however minimal. Machines replacing workers is nothing news.....just look at the last 100 years. I'm sure the towncriers unionized protested newspapers, lol. 
Lets be careful when lawyers and selfish interests plant ideas in our head and making us feel like victims. First the union wants 2%, then they want something else.....and within a few years they're up multiple that amount. Add your other costs and you'll realize all you've done is a 360.


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

i have been in one union, so i can't speak for others - however that union charged 2% since it's inception afaik and it never changed. uber and lyft however have gone from taking 20% of your earnings to 25% of your earnings to 35-65% of your earnings. uber and lyft could have avoided this by being honorable partners, but they decided to be scum.

let me break this down for you. if rideshare wasn't meant to be a fulltime gig then they would have capped the hours you can work per week at 20.

if you, sorry i meant uber and lyft :woot:, got rid of the 10% of drivers who do the most rides - around 80% of your total rides booked i'd estimate. your business would be done in a few months tops. you guys love talking about how 80% of drivers do this less than 20 hours a week, but you never mention how the backbone of the business and it's explosive expansion was 100% due to the drivers doing 40-70 hours a week. you need to treat them with respect.

in other words if this truly was a "side hustle" it wouldn't be. because it wouldn't exist without the fulltimers keeping prices low and wait times short.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Aubrey Jones said:


> To quote another member from here: Unions want a cut of every penny you make, politicians want union votes, taxman wants his share.....and lawyers will gas you up telling you you're a victim. The only people who always seem to get paid at the end are lawyers.
> Don't fall for it.....just not too long ago your phone made calls and took calls. Now you have an opportunity to use it to make money....and everyone wants in. When they start gasing up our cars or actually doing the work, they can speak. But for now, they can sit in their comfortable offices looking at spreadsheets while wondering how many other ways they can try screwing the people over.
> This is why automation and autonomy is coming.
> Keep rocking the boat and autonomous will become standard....and you'll be wishing you had the good old days back.


Autonomous is coming regardless of rocking the boat. It may not be in the next couple years but as soon as the technology is available drivers will be replaced.



got a p said:


> what if your union charged you 2% of what you make but eliminated the pay cuts of the last year or two that resulted in you earning 30% less. they can cap the amount of drivers, negotiate your old rates back, have an unemployment fund setup plus virtually every union has a credit union.
> 
> 2% vs 30% i'll take that any day. plus that 2% goes to giving you benefits such as the ones i mentioned. real benefits not a free 6 inch sub a week.
> 
> ps - automation is very, very far away. at least 15-20 years. if it's allowed any sooner they will be hacked and turned into weapons.


When I worked union I paid 25 bux a month in union dues. I got paid ten bux an hour. At the time minimum wage was 3.35 an hour.



Aubrey Jones said:


> Rideshare wasn't designed to be a fulltime gig, though some have morphed it into that. Then again everyone has different needs. You should know what you're getting into and not expect the system to cater to your needs. You really want to be classified and treated like a full time cab driver? Spend one day at a cab depot and you'll reconsider your expectations. The irony being if you're really treated as such, you'll be out protesting being treated as such. That's why the French can't get anything done....they will protest a sandwich if they could lol.
> Automation is closer than you think....and it's already happening in certain areas however minimal. Machines replacing workers is nothing news.....just look at the last 100 years. I'm sure the towncriers unionized protested newspapers, lol.
> Lets be careful when lawyers and selfish interests plant ideas in our head and making us feel like victims. First the union wants 2%, then they want something else.....and within a few years they're up multiple that amount. Add your other costs and you'll realize all you've done is a 360.


Full time or part time doesn't really matter, drivers should be making enough money to at least cover minimum wage plus expennses.


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

autonomous cars won't be allowed until legislators are 100% certain that the fleets can't be hacked. there's a lot of countries/cells out there that would love to kill a million americans in a minute flat. they would love it even more if we planted the weapons ourselves. we don't have the best hackers or cyber-security in the world. there are better ones out there. and eventually they will outwit the companies and use the fleets to kill a massive amount of people. this is unacceptable.

ps - agreed unions are the way to go. you payed $25/ month to make $1600/month when without the union you could have been working for $500/month. i'd say that $25 was well worth it. ridehsare unions are on the way. hopefully we can have a local for every region, backed by the local lawmakers to make sure that when drivers are out they are being productive and not just creating traffic congestion and destroying the environment in between rides in oversaturated markets.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

got a p said:


> autonomous cars won't be allowed until legislators are 100% certain that the fleets can't be hacked. there's a lot of countries/cells out there that would love to kill a million americans in a minute flat. they would love it even more if we planted the weapons ourselves. we don't have the best hackers or cyber-security in the world. there are better ones out there. and eventually they will outwit the companies and use the fleets to kill a massive amount of people. this is unacceptable.
> 
> ps - agreed unions are the way to go. you payed $25/ month to make $1600/month when without the union you could have been working for $500/month. i'd say that $25 was well worth it. ridehsare unions are on the way. hopefully we can have a local for every region, backed by the local lawmakers to make sure that when drivers are out they are being productive and not just creating traffic congestion and destroying the environment in between rides in oversaturated markets.


On top of the 1100 extra a month I also had paid medical, paid sick days, pension and paid vacation. Just one weeks vacation more than paid for the union dues and I got three weeks paid.

Companies have done an excellent job of convincing people that unions are bad.

Dues, dues, dues!

Yes unions are bad,

for companies.


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## Cynergie (Apr 10, 2017)

got a p said:


> i'm one of those people. it's called collective bargaining.
> 
> 
> it's not a side gig for many it's full time taxi driver. no shame in that.


So rent/lease a medallion and go be a taxi driver then. Problem resolved. :laugh:

http://www.driverzoo.com/Taxi-License-and-Medallion/ALL


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## RDWRER (May 24, 2018)

Cynergie said:


> But rather the fact that it remains a linguistic challenge on how to spell conundrum without a spell checker app. Just like Mississippi or Massachusetts.


M-iss-iss-ippi.

How has no one ever taught you the sing-song way of learning Mississippi?

And Mass-a-chus-etts is spelled exactly how it's pronounced. Unless maybe you've got some heavy accent or something. &#129335;‍♂


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## Aubrey Jones (Jan 28, 2020)

Cynergie said:


> So rent/lease a medallion and go be a taxi driver then. Problem resolved. :laugh:
> 
> http://www.driverzoo.com/Taxi-License-and-Medallion/ALL


Amen to that!


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

observer said:


> Yes unions are bad,
> 
> for companies.


Unions are bad for businesses, the industry, and the economy. The do raise the wages and benefits for some workers in some industries at the cost of fewer jobs at the company, lower investment by the company, and a higher cost to the consumer.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. There is always a cost.


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

got a p said:


> i have been in one union, so i can't speak for others - however that union charged 2% since it's inception afaik and it never changed. uber and lyft however have gone from taking 20% of your earnings to 25% of your earnings to 35-65% of your earnings. uber and lyft could have avoided this by being honorable partners, but they decided to be scum.
> 
> let me break this down for you. if rideshare wasn't meant to be a fulltime gig then they would have capped the hours you can work per week at 20.
> 
> ...


__________________________

* you guys love talking about how 80% of drivers do this less than 20 hours a week, but you never mention how the backbone of the business and it's explosive expansion was 100% due to the drivers doing 40-70 hours a week. you need to treat them with respect.*
Sorry, but I do not agree with this statement. The part time driver has always been the backbone of both Uber & Lyft. The success of the companies is based on people getting a ride any time of day in less then 10 minutes. Flooding the roads with drivers accomplished this goal. Part time drivers have always taken up 80+% of the drivers. By part time, I mean logged on 40 hours or more per seek.

________________________

Yes, I agree that Unions accomplish getting benefits and "extra" pluses from an employer. However, only full time employees will benefit. 
That is the key word -- *Full Time Employees. *


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

bsliv said:


> Unions are bad for businesses, the industry, and the economy. The do raise the wages and benefits for some workers in some industries at the cost of fewer jobs at the company, lower investment by the company, and a higher cost to the consumer.
> 
> There is no such thing as a free lunch. There is always a cost.


Some businesses are bad for employees.

I keep reading about companies laying off employees because of higher wages or unions or benefits.

Companies don't just have extra employees hanging around twiddling their thumbs. If they lay off people because of higher wages _*they had too many people to begin with *_doing jobs that were marginally productive.

As far as being bad for the economy, where does money from workers go if not back in to the economy?

Money now only goes one way, up. Into invvestors bank accounts where it stagnates.

When an employee makes more money he spends more money. Benefitting other workers and the economy.

My dad also worked union. We had three cars, a couple houses, investment properties,and a motorhome.

Who benefitted??? The new car dealer where my dad bought his cars, the service people who serviced those vehicles, the car manufacturers that built those vehicles, the manufacturers employees, suppliers and their down stream suppliers and employees and their respective communities. Investors also made money, they just made less money.

My dad spent a lot of money on us kids, toys, clothes, eating out, cars, vacations. All of that money benefitted other workers and the economy.

When you have disposable income you take vacations. We would take three week vacations in the motorhomes. Spreading money out to gas stations, restaurants and other businesses along the way.

My dad also gave away a lot of money, clothes, food and toys to people in need. When he passed away I was surprised at how many people told me that my dad had helped them out when they were young. I think about 30% of the people that went to his service told me how grateful they were to my dad.

Me, well, I made a little money working union too but I spent a lot of it on clothes, cars and going out. Since I worked 4-10s I'd fly down to Mexico one weekend a month, spending a weeks pay just on the airline ticket alone. Again though, all the money I spent went back in to the economy.

BTW, to clarify, besides my dad working 4-10s he also had a lawn cutting business and bought and sold real estate. Not all his money was from his union job.


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

Why not just make CA a separate country? Take those 55 votes with you. Door don't hit ass, lol.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Ssgcraig said:


> Why not just make CA a separate country? Take those 55 votes with you. Door don't hit ass, lol.


I wish we would.

To put things in to perspective, what would happen to the economy if Uber drivers made 30 bux an hour free of all expenses?


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

observer said:


> Some businesses are bad for employees.


Then they shouldn't be employees of that business.



observer said:


> I keep reading about companies laying off employees because of higher wages or unions or benefits.


Sometimes a business can't layoff employees due to contracts. Those businesses are at a severe disadvantage to their competition. General Motors was paying people to stay home. It nearly bankrupted them. The only thing that saved Hostess was reorganizing without union labor.



observer said:


> If they lay off people because of higher wages _*they had too many people to begin with *_doing jobs that were marginally productive.


The companies will layoff the less productive people. The companies should be allowed the flexibility to hire and fire whoever they wish in order to maximize profits. Unfortunately, many are hampered with union contracts.



observer said:


> As far as being bad for the economy, where does money from workers go if not back in to the economy?
> 
> Money now only goes one way, up. Into invvestors bank accounts where it stagnates.


So, which is it? Do profits stagnate or are they put back into the economy? Employees have profits it gets put back into the economy or into savings. Businesses have profits and it get put back into the economy. Businesses don't save for retirement. If profits from a business stagnate, its a poorly run business. Profits from a business is reinvested into their business, thereby creating new jobs which creates a higher demand for labor, which drives up the price of labor (wages). Or profits are distributed to shareholders who then buy cars, houses, etc.



observer said:


> When an employee makes more money he spends more money. Benefitting other workers and the economy.


And when a business makes more money they spend more money, benefiting other workers and the economy.



observer said:


> My dad also worked union. We had three cars, a couple houses, investment properties,and a motorhome.


Congratulations. Your father had profits from his labor.

An employee and an employer have a symbiotic relationship. If it doesn't work for one party, it won't work for either party.



observer said:


> what would happen to the economy if Uber drivers made 30 bux an hour free of all expenses?


Uber would not eat the cost, they can't, they are already losing money. The additional cost would have to come from the pax. Make the fare high enough and you'll lose the pax. The higher the fare the more pax that will be lost. And then there is competition. If Uber paid drivers $30/hr, Lyft would get the pax. Uber would cease to exist. Uber drivers would be no more. That is a detriment to the economy. Short term $30/hr leads to unemployment for drivers and higher fare to pax.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Aubrey Jones said:


> Rideshare wasn't designed to be a fulltime gig,


A. Generation 1 drivers,
The original "Product" was using licensed towncar services. Hence full timers...

B. Generation 2 to about generation or so drivers
The next "wave" of signups was poaching full time taxi/ect drivers off the cab companies
(this is where i was pulled in)

Generation _19 (Current new sign ups)_
You, yes you specifically, are probably in the 16th or 17th generation of drivers. The vast majority of each generation are gone within 6 months, 95% wiped out a year in the 9 years that uber has existed. Only a few dinosaurs are still around from the earliest days, most notibly because no one sticks around when pay rates are cut by over 60%. Some Markets were cut more than that.

So Wasn't meant to be a full time gig?
Wrongo...

In the early days they advertised it as a full time gig making 50,000+ a year. People quit full time jobs in various industries to get in on uber.

And i put in 39 hours over the weekend (Well Thursday night to Sunday morning BUT i took Friday night off). That's awfully close to full time now isn't it? If i was doing it full time there's 70 "GOOD" hours a week to choose from around here.


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## EM1 (Apr 28, 2019)

RS drivers are essentially a hybrid. I only do Uber part-time, and I have mixed feelings. I'm all for capitalism and free markets; on the other hand, Uber is a notoriously sketchy company, treats the drivers horribly, awful, condescending driver support reps in Manila, problems with drivers being unfairly terminated, problems with getting paid for completed trips, problems with remitting tips (sometimes days later, and this only started happening after their app 'update' in late 2018), and so on. In addition, here in Socal, the Uber driver app frequently provides a longer or incorrect route; its essentially overcharging their customers, and its embarrassing for the company I show every rider the app when its a bad or longer route being provided. In addition, riders can do 'revenge ratings' on drivers, but not vice versa. So when I rate a rider a '1', they can come back days or weeks or months later and rate me '1' and/or complain. Drivers only have the option to rate riders at the end of the trip. And there is driver safety, so many drivers are abused & mistreated by paxils its astounding. If a taxi cab driver is assaulted or the cab is damaged, you bet the police get in on it and the cab company goes after the rider w/ attorneys etc. In conclusion, so many issues and no real solutions. But drivers should not have to endure this kind of treatment from a company or the customers. 

So Uber definitely brought this toothache upon themselves. Uber has a history of not honoring its commitments either. So it goes way beyond an issue of minimum pay and/or benefits. If it were soley those 2 issues, I wouldn't support so much the union or AB5 ideas.


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

KK2929 said:


> __________________________
> 
> * you guys love talking about how 80% of drivers do this less than 20 hours a week, but you never mention how the backbone of the business and it's explosive expansion was 100% due to the drivers doing 40-70 hours a week. you need to treat them with respect.*
> Sorry, but I do not agree with this statement. The part time driver has always been the backbone of both Uber & Lyft. The success of the companies is based on people getting a ride any time of day in less then 10 minutes. Flooding the roads with drivers accomplished this goal. Part time drivers have always taken up 80+% of the drivers. By part time, I mean logged on 40 hours or more per seek.
> ...


What part do you not agree with? The fact that the 10% of drivers who do the most rides, generally 100 a week or so, do around 80% of the rides and without them there would be permanent surge and long pickups?

When rides get that expensive and take forever to get picked up people stop using them then these companies go on the fast track to bankruptcy. If that happens no more driving for anyone.

It's all about good negotiations that keep the business on track and keep the drivers fairly compensated. We want uber to do well, but we also want our fair share for doing the grunt work.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

got a p said:


> The fact that the 10% of drivers who do the most rides, generally 100 a week or so, do around 80% of the rides and without them there would be permanent surge and long pickups?


Fact or opinion?


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## ubergrind (May 23, 2017)

got a p said:


> autonomous cars won't be allowed until legislators are 100% certain that the fleets can't be hacked. there's a lot of countries/cells out there that would love to kill a million americans in a minute flat. they would love it even more if we planted the weapons ourselves. we don't have the best hackers or cyber-security in the world. there are better ones out there. and eventually they will outwit the companies and use the fleets to kill a massive amount of people. this is unacceptable.
> 
> ps - agreed unions are the way to go. you payed $25/ month to make $1600/month when without the union you could have been working for $500/month. i'd say that $25 was well worth it. ridehsare unions are on the way. hopefully we can have a local for every region, backed by the local lawmakers to make sure that when drivers are out they are being productive and not just creating traffic congestion and destroying the environment in between rides in oversaturated markets.


Union representation will slow down 100 % automation. Bringing drivers to the table as partners will insure that drivers don't totally get cut out as the robots are phased in .


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

ubergrind said:


> Union representation will slow down 100 % automation. Bringing drivers to the table as partners will insure that drivers don't totally get cut out as the robots are phased in .


Yeah their framework will get hacked for certain. I just got hit up by a scammer and here's the weird part. I called support through help and instead of going to a human like it does 100% of the time it went to an automated system asking for my birthdate.

They can't avoid being hacked by comparatively unsophisticated hackers, they definitely will get hacked when the ante goes up and automated cars can be used to cause a massive attack.


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## KK2929 (Feb 9, 2017)

KK2929 said:


> __________________________
> 
> * you guys love talking about how 80% of drivers do this less than 20 hours a week, but you never mention how the backbone of the business and it's explosive expansion was 100% due to the drivers doing 40-70 hours a week. you need to treat them with respect.*
> Sorry, but I do not agree with this statement. The part time driver has always been the backbone of both Uber & Lyft. The success of the companies is based on people getting a ride any time of day in less then 10 minutes. Flooding the roads with drivers accomplished this goal. Part time drivers have always taken up 80+% of the drivers. By Full time, I mean logged on 40 hours or more per week.
> ...





KK2929 said:


> __________________________
> 
> * you guys love talking about how 80% of drivers do this less than 20 hours a week, but you never mention how the backbone of the business and it's explosive expansion was 100% due to the drivers doing 40-70 hours a week. you need to treat them with respect.*
> Sorry, but I do not agree with this statement. The part time driver has always been the backbone of both Uber & Lyft. The success of the companies is based on people getting a ride any time of day in less then 10 minutes. Flooding the roads with drivers accomplished this goal. Part time drivers have always taken up 80+% of the drivers. By Full time, I mean logged on 40 hours or more per week.
> ...





KK2929 said:


> __________________________
> 
> * you guys love talking about how 80% of drivers do this less than 20 hours a week, but you never mention how the backbone of the business and it's explosive expansion was 100% due to the drivers doing 40-70 hours a week. you need to treat them with respect.*
> Sorry, but I do not agree with this statement. The part time driver has always been the backbone of both Uber & Lyft. The success of the companies is based on people getting a ride any time of day in less then 10 minutes. Flooding the roads with drivers accomplished this goal. Part time drivers have always taken up 80+% of the drivers. By part time, I mean logged on 40 hours or more per seek.
> ...


-------------------------
Just read my mis-statement above. It is suppose to read ---
*By FULL time, I mean logged on 40 hours or more per week. Sorry. *


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## got a p (Jan 27, 2018)

KK2929 said:


> -------------------------
> Just read my mis-statement above. It is suppose to read ---
> *By FULL time, I mean logged on 40 hours or more per week. Sorry. *


Well technically you can just turn the app on and sit at home for a long ride every day after work and do a few a week. You canbe logged on 60 hours even and only do one ride. Whereas someone who does 100+ rides could be logged on for the same amount of time.

That's the difference. Being logged on does not a full timer make. Getting 100 people around every week does. That's why i said the top 10% in rides given do about 80% of the rides instead of hours online. Take away the top drivers, by how many rides they do, and these guys are done very quickly.

In other words when you hear it's not meant to be a full time job, it has to be for a decent amount of the total driver pool for it to be as effective and cheap as it is.

When they were in their first few years they advertised make $70k/year driving for uber. Thats not possible part time. So when you hear people say this is a "side hustle" and was never meant to be a full time job you know they are parroting bs. It absolutely was marketed as a full time job. And again, without their full timers, they fail. And they know it.


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## KevinH (Jul 13, 2014)

One of the missing components in this discussion of pros and cons of worker classification are the societal costs of the lack of workplace benefits and the absence of corporate responsibility. The independent contractor relationship for workers creates costs that the public must cover, fosters public safety risks, and permits worker abuses that affect families and communities.

Unemployment insurance, disability payments, paid sick days, and workers compensation are not just charitable handouts but are specifically designed to limit the snowballing economic effects of sudden loss of income and workplace injury related expenses. Just as the Federal Reserve raises and lowers interest rates to influence economic stability, these social programs are designed to help workers continue to pay their rent and bills while looking for a new job, recovering from a work related injury or become temporarily disabled.

Shortly after the California Supreme Court decision on "Dynamex" in 2018, San Francisco city attorney Dennis Herrera subpoenaed Uber/Lyft SF driving records to see if they should be treated as employees. Part of his public statement at the time: "We are not going to tolerate any company shirking its responsibility to pay for benefits and shifting that burden on to taxpayers when drivers without health insurance turn to the emergency room."
_https://techcrunch.com/2018/05/29/sf-city-attorney-subpoenas-uber-and-lyft-for-driver-pay-benefits-and-classification-info/_

One of the reasons that AB5 was passed without a tumultuous fight in the State Capitol is that many in the legislature saw the State paying out unemployment benefits, workers compensation and disability benefits because the State had determined these drivers were misclassified and the companies were not paying into these funds. New Jersey has exactly the same issue with Uber, determining their drivers are misclassified employees and therefore granting benefits. They have sent a bill to Uber for $650 million to cover just social benefits going back to 2014. This does not include pay issues like minimum wage or overtime.
_https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily...650-million-employment-tax-bill-in-new-jersey_

The rideshare industry adds additional social costs by sending hundreds of thousands of drivers onto public streets with no training, safety policy or supervision while requiring all parties (except other drivers and pedestrians) to hold the rideshare companies not at fault for whatever happens.Their classification of drivers as independent contractors allows them to enter tort courts with documents that show they have either no corporate liability at all and the terms of driver agreements limits the amount of liability to the maximum of insurance coverage. Of course the rideshare companies are notorious for creating huge gaps in coverage and getting politicians to approve them. As a gross example, remember the 2014 case of 6 year old Sofia Liu's family that was run down in a crosswalk by an Uber driver waiting for a ping in San Francisco. Sofia was killed and her mother seriously injured and Uber said its insurance did not apply because the driver did not have a passenger in the car. This policy structure actually had the prior approval of California's Public Utility Commission. When public outrage about the death finally forced Uber to add coverage to drivers with the app on (period 1), Uber continued to argue that the policy did not apply at the time of the accident and owed the family nothing. When Uber finally conceded to grant the benefits the new coverage afforded to the family the insurance amount was $100,000 and the mother already had over $500,000 in medical bills. They had a good attorney and finally got a better settlement from Uber. Here is the funny part though. When Uber turned the loss over to its general liability insurance carrier, the claim was denied because right on the driver contract, it said Uber had no liability.
_https://abc7news.com/business/family-of-6-year-old-girl-killed-by-uber-driver-settles-lawsuit/852108/_

Without the benefits, regulations and court decisions surrounding employment status, gig economy companies are free to exploit workers and force agreements that threaten workers, devastate their families and endanger the public.

_THE DEADLY RACE How Amazon Hooked America on Fast Delivery While Avoiding Responsibility for Crashes_
_DEATHS AND INJURIES DON'T SLOW UBER EATS' RAPID EXPANSION IN MEXICO_
_DPD courier who was fined for day off to see doctor dies from diabetes_
_DoorDash Tip Suit Is Just Another Chapter In The Gig Economy's Crummy History_
Uber/Lyft put not only the cost of operating a transportation service onto the drivers, they also put the risks onto drivers as well.
The number 1 source of workplace injuries and workplace deaths in America is driving. That risk is compounded in by instant demand, in-vehicle cell phone use, bad neighborhoods, unruly passengers, shootings, stabbings, robbery, carjacking and random violence. The independent contractor classification makes the driver bear all the costs of these risks.
Furthermore, many drives are unaware of how quickly their high use of the vehicle causes wear and tear, physical damage and depreciation. Much of their income needs to be set aside for future regular maintenance, unexpected serious repairs and depreciation. Today, January 28, 2020 the charity site GoFundMe shows 16,148 requests for financial aid when searching for the term "Uber" and 4,993 when searching for the term "Lyft". Families that lost their breadwinner to injuries or death want help, other drivers need assistance with major repairs, replacement vehicles when accidents caused insurance gaps to fail to cover repairs or the total loss of the vehicle. Recent research shows that 58% of new drivers do not understand what an independent contractor is.

The only thing the Canadian "Dependent Contractor" classification provides is a notice of termination and the severance package that Canada stipulates for employees. No other benefits would apply. In Spain the Dependent Contractor is eligible for sick pay maternity and paternity leave, severance pay and the ability to bargain collectively. Neither program provides health coverage or injury compensation.

Uber's new compensation plan that they hope to put on this years ballot in November contains no workers compensation. A scathing report by the UC Berkeley's Labor Center estimates that the net pay to drivers will be $5.64 per hour. This does not include unpaid hours spent like washing and vacuuming the car, gasing up, waiting for tires and shocks to be installed, oil changes etc. 
_The Uber/Lyft Ballot Initiative Guarantees only $5.64 an Hour_

The proposed plan does include some accident insurance, but lets be clear here workers compensation is not insurance. Workers comp provides:

Continuing income when a worker becomes disabled from a workplace injury.
100% reimbursement for all related medical costs.No deductibles, no co-pay, no maximums.
Therapy to enable the worker to resume their occupation as quickly as possible.
If a worker becomes permanently disabled, then re-training in another skill thereby enabling that worker to again support themselves.
Reimbursement for transportation costs to medical, therapy and training appointments.
If the disability is permanent, then a lump-sum is paid to the worker suffering and for the loss of that income ability.
Continuing death benefits for family survivors that last years after the accident.

As it stands now and if the ballot initiative passes injured drivers will be forced to continue to apply for public assistance, beg on GoFundMe, maybe file for bankruptcy, and so default on creditors. If they seek legal help, benefits will be tied up in court for years.

These financial consequences are also born by persons other than drivers and their host companies. This public component needs to be part of the discussion on this thread.


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## UberProphet? (Dec 24, 2014)

KevinH said:


> One of the missing components in this discussion of pros and cons of worker classification are the societal costs of the lack of workplace benefits and the absence of corporate responsibility. The independent contractor relationship for workers creates costs that the public must cover, fosters public safety risks, and permits worker abuses that affect families and communities.
> 
> Unemployment insurance, disability payments, paid sick days, and workers compensation are not just charitable handouts but are specifically designed to limit the snowballing economic effects of sudden loss of income and workplace injury related expenses. Just as the Federal Reserve raises and lowers interest rates to influence economic stability, these social programs are designed to help workers continue to pay their rent and bills while looking for a new job, recovering from a work related injury or become temporarily disabled.
> 
> ...


thank you kevin for the BEST POST EVER on up.net


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