# Uber driving is never considered a hobby



## Paul Collins

Recently on this forum members were making a false claim that uber could be considered a 'hobby' and therefore no ABN or GST registration was required.

After two conversations over the last two weeks with the ATO and today with two CPA's, I can confirm that this is false.

Uber is always considered an enterprise, regardless if it is profitable or not, and all drivers must have an ABN and be GST registered from their first drive.

It is dangerous to take advice or incorrect interpretations from anonymous bots on this forum to base your tax arrangements on. I suggest all drivers ensure they have their ABN and GST registration in place and confirm with the ATO directly, if you have previously considered uber driving as a 'hobby'.

Note, I will not be responding to any trolls as this thread has already been deleted previously, not be me, and it is critical that members here know their tax responsibilities.

https://www.ato.gov.au/general/the-sharing-economy-and-tax/


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## ST DYMPHNA son

... you can see my point,if things are not going your way,you are deleting anything that is obvious proof of you being wrong ...there is a thing called a good "REPUTATION",once lost it can not be found again...
...should have taken a screen shot before you deleted this thread and reposted,well,one need an integrity and you now it,deleting posts is not a proof of having a one...


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> After two conversations over the last two weeks with the ATO and today with two CPA's, I can confirm that this is false.


Do you have a private ruling from the ATO? If not, they haven't given you binding advice. And I wouldn't trust your ability to comprehend what you've been told, or give relevant facts so you can be given correct advice.


Paul Collins said:


> It is dangerous to take advice or incorrect interpretations from anonymous bots on this forum to base your tax arrangements on.


You like to spin things to make it look like you're saving people from something. The delusions of grandeur continue. The best advice that can be given to anyone here is to apply to the ATO for a private ruling if you want certainty about how the ATO will apply tax laws to your particular circumstances. Ignore whatever Paul Collins has to say, because history shows he has little clue what he's talking about.


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## ST DYMPHNA son

UberDriverAU said:


> Do you have a private ruling from the ATO? If not, they haven't given you binding advice. And I wouldn't trust your ability to comprehend what you've been told, or give relevant facts so you can be given correct advice.
> 
> You like to spin things to make it look like you're saving people from something. The delusions of grandeur continue. The best advice that can be given to anyone here is to apply to the ATO for a private ruling if you want certainty about how the ATO will apply tax laws to your particular circumstances. Ignore whatever Paul Collins has to say, because history shows he has little clue what he's talking about.


...this post has been deleted and reposted as my answers did not make PC happy,he asked me for proof of him being wrong,and when pointed out that he deletes posts which are a proof of it he deleted again...there is no integrity in anything what he does..


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## UberDriverAU

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...this post has been deleted and reposted as my answers did not make PC happy,he asked me for proof of him being wrong,and when pointed out that he deletes posts which are a proof of it he deleted again...there is no integrity in anything what he does..


Always use the "Reply" link on his posts, it records his original statements for posterity!


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## ST DYMPHNA son

UberDriverAU said:


> Always use the "Reply" link on his posts, it records his original statements for posterity!


...he deleted whole thread then reposted...


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## UberDriverAU

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...he deleted whole thread then reposted...


Ahhh, "noted"!


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## Paul Collins

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...he deleted whole thread then reposted...


Wrong again. Perhaps ask a mod.


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## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> Wrong again. Perhaps ask a mod.


...are you a mod now???...


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## Bandy

Paul Collins said:


> Wrong again. Perhaps ask a mod.


how was your unplanned holiday flip flop?


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## Who is John Galt?

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...he deleted whole thread then reposted...


Maybe he forgot he had deleted and had to re-post it.


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## ST DYMPHNA son

Who is John Galt? said:


> Maybe he forgot he had deleted and had to re-post it.


...or it might be a "Fishermen Syndrome" when one expend skills so one can forget what one is doing while actually doing it...


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## Who is John Galt?

Bandy said:


> how was your unplanned holiday flip flop?


I don't know if it is true, but someone indicated he was searching for his 'inner Dory'.

.


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## Paul Collins

Anonymous bots with false advice should be ignored when it comes to the ATO. I encourage all drivers who have any questions regarding Uber as a ‘hobby’ and no need for an ABN or GST registration to call the ATO directly.

The trolls will no doubt respond. Count 1, 2, 3.....


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## ST DYMPHNA son

Paul Collins said:


> Anonymous bots with false advice should be ignored when it comes to the ATO. I encourage all drivers who have any questions regarding Uber as a 'hobby' and no need for an ABN or GST registration to call the ATO directly.


...finally some sense,as I have so many times stated that only place to get an advice is a Professional Tax Advisors...
So you will stop writing a nonsense about GST ???,what about your petition???


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## Who is John Galt?

Paul Collins said:


> Anonymous bots with false advice should be ignored when it comes to the ATO. I encourage all drivers who have any questions regarding Uber as a 'hobby' and no need for an ABN or GST registration to call the ATO directly.


Fantastic advice as always, Paul.

So, do you think it would be advisable for persons with genuine enquiries, to bypass your questionable advice and now go directly to the ATO, or are you suggesting that you have had some legal issues with incorrect advice in the past and can no longer hold yourself up as an expert?

Is this something to do with the 'n' name that Bandy called you and you keep recognising as your descriptor in various posts?


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## ST DYMPHNA son

...does anyone remember what was name of Brian's father in the "Life of Brian"???


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## Who is John Galt?

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...does anyone remember what was name of Brian's father in the "Life of Brian"???


Dory?


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## ST DYMPHNA son

Who is John Galt? said:


> Dory?


...might have been,but I think it was more like Maximus Richard or similar...


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## Who is John Galt?

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...might have been,but I think it was more like Maximus Richard or similar...


 Oh.....sorry, I was thinking of the wrong catch. Obviously, you are referring to Biggus Dorus 

or...Biggus something....

That is the problem when dealing with Doryisms, one never knows if the memory is correct or not. But hey, if you have a direct line.....who needs a memory?

.


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## ST DYMPHNA son

Who is John Galt? said:


> Oh.....sorry, I was thinking of the wrong catch. Obviously, you are referring to Biggus Dorus
> 
> or...Biggus something....
> 
> That is the problem when dealing with Doryisms, one never knows if the memory is correct or not. But hey, if you have a direct line.....who needs a memory?
> 
> .


...thanks John...


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## Who is John Galt?

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...thanks John...


You're welcome Saint. 

It is nice to see some gratitude from members like yourself rather than the outrageous put downs and disparaging remarks from other members such as .....well....I cannot even bring myself to mention his name after some of the revelations which have come to light in the last 24 hours.

To say I'm disappointed is a major understatement, no, no, I think all members are truly, truly disappointed and indeed numb at the disclosures.

Shocked! Absolutely shocked! I am just shaking my head at the gravity of the revelations and expect the direct line to the Kremlin Über HQ will be severed sooner rather than later.

.


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## Lowestformofwit




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## Undertaker

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...does anyone remember what was name of Brian's father in the "Life of Brian"???







MANDY: Well, Brian,... your father isn't Mr. Cohen.

BRIAN: I never thought he was.

MANDY: Now, none of your cheek! He was a Roman, Brian. He was a centurion in the Roman army.

BRIAN: You mean... you were raped?

MANDY: Well, at first, yes.

BRIAN: Who was it?

MANDY: Heh. Nortius Maximus his name was. Hmm. Promised me the known world he did. I was to be taken to Rome, House by the Forum. Slaves. Asses' milk. As much gold as I could eat. Then, he, having his way with me had... voom! Like a rat out of an aqueduct.


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## Paul Collins

'But as far as income tax is concerned, you'll need to pay it no matter what.

This is because there are two pieces of legislation that, in combination, catch income on isolated profit-making transactions.

First, section 15.15 of the _Income Tax Assessment Act 1997_ says that your assessable income includes profit from a profit-making undertaking. This certainly applies to Uber drivers. You undertake to drive riders from A to B, and they pay you. Quite clear cut..

Then, Tax Ruling 92/3, titled 'Whether Profits on Isolated Transactions are Income', says that if a taxpayer who is not carrying on a business makes a profit (e.g. earns money from Uber) on an occasional, infrequent or even one-off transaction, it still counts as a profit-making undertaking, and is therefore still taxable under s. 15.15.

There are two requirements for this ruling to apply:


the intention or purpose of the taxpayer was to make a profit, and
the profit was made in carrying out a business operation or commercial transaction
So what does that all mean? Let's look at those two points in more detail.

*Intention of Profit or Gain*
I've chatted to drivers who say "it's just a hobby", or "I don't make much, it's not about the money, I just enjoy meeting and chatting to people". These are completely valid statements, but TR 92/3 says that profit doesn't have to be the sole or dominant intention, just a "significant purpose".

These occasional hobby drivers may say money was not a significant purpose to them, but the ATO will argue this: The Uber app does two key things. Connects drivers with riders, and manages payment. By applying to be an Uber driver, and by using the app, you are using both of these functions. If you didn't want to be paid, and just wanted to connect to riders without payment, you could approach people in taxi queues, post ads on Gumtree, or make offers on social media. By choosing to register with Uber, you elected to use their specific pricing and payment model, which clearly is structured to provide some level of profit to the driver.

Subjective and arguable perhaps, but this is likely to be their logic.'


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## Who is John Galt?

Riveting stuff.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins, are you saying it's impossible to make a loss driving for Uber? I'd be very careful about making that claim. If you don't intend to make a profit, and you don't make a profit, then ... [fill in the blank].


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Paul Collins, are you saying it's impossible to make a loss driving for Uber? I'd be very careful about making that claim. If you don't intend to make a profit, and you don't make a profit, then ... [fill in the blank].


If you do not intend to make a profit then you would not sign up as an Uber driver. Simple.

'These are completely valid statements, but TR 92/3 says that profit doesn't have to be the sole or dominant intention, just a "significant purpose".'

Your advice is dangerous and wrong in my opinion, as you may put members in trouble with the ATO, whereas my advice and that of the ATO and every professional accountant is to have and ABN and be gst registered. Since you are an anonymous bot, you have zero credibility. If you really felt you were right, then use your real name and stand behind what you state otherwise, as I said, you are alone shouting in a dark room and should be ignored.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> If you do not intend to make a profit then you would not sign up as an Uber driver. Simple.


Who are you to tell people what to do?


Paul Collins said:


> 'These are completely valid statements, but TR 92/3 says that profit doesn't have to be the sole or dominant intention, just a "significant purpose".'


And if it's not a significant purpose?


Paul Collins said:


> Your advice is dangerous and wrong and since you are an anonymous bot, you have zero credibility.


The actual advice I've given is to get a private ruling from the ATO if someone wants certainty about how the ATO will apply tax laws to their particular circumstances. That's dangerous and wrong? That's a zero risk option that any driver can take. If I have zero credibility, then you're well into negative figures.


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## Paul Collins

The ATO have been very very clear.

*"Under GST law, ride-sourcing is taxi travel. This means that you need to get an ABN and register for GST."*

Ring the ATO on 13 28 66 or email them at [email protected]


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> The ATO have been very very clear.
> 
> *"Under GST law, ride-sourcing is taxi travel. This means that you need to get an ABN and register for GST."*
> 
> Ring the ATO on 13 28 66 or email them at [email protected]
> 
> View attachment 191080


Read what it says Paul:

"If you are running a ride-sourcing enterprise ..."

If you are not running an enterprise, however, the GST law clearly states you can't be making taxable supplies. Have you read the law Paul?


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Read what it says Paul:
> 
> "If you are running a ride-sourcing enterprise ..."
> 
> If you are not running an enterprise, however, the GST law clearly states you can't be making taxable supplies. Have you read the law Paul?


*'Under GST law, ride-sourcing is taxi travel. This means that you need to get an ABN and register for GST.'
*
Not clear enough for you?
Our 'chat' is over as it is clear that your advice is dangerous and wrong and coming from an anonymous source, it should be totally ignored.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> *'Under GST law, ride-sourcing is taxi travel. This means that you need to get an ABN and register for GST.'
> 
> Not clear enough for you?*


You are taking it out of context, but in isolation it is incorrect. Why? Because the GST law says so.


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## Lowestformofwit

Paul Collins said:


> Since you are an anonymous bot, you have zero credibility.


Baffled by the tenuous logic there.
Been a lot of posts on the wider Forum by your so-called 'anonymous bots' that have been accurate and correct.
And using your real name automatically makes you correct?
Obviously this one has never been on your reading list:


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## UberDriverAU

Lowestformofwit said:


> Baffled by the tenuous logic there.


Logic, rational thought, and comprehension ability certainly aren't Paul's strong points.


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## Hugh G

Using this logic....



Paul Collins said:


> Since you are an anonymous bot, you have zero credibility. If you really felt you were right, then use your real name and stand behind what you state otherwise, as I said, you are alone shouting in a dark room and should be ignored.


Then 99% of the forum contributors "have zero credibility" !

Paul may I respectfully suggest that it might be a better result for all if you asked your Moderator Mates to set up an area for only those members who submit a legal identity check before being allowed to contribute.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."


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## Bandy

Paul Collins said:


> You undertake to drive riders from A to B, and they pay you. Quite clear cut..


Incorrect and the complete opposite to clear cut. You keep sprouting nonsense. That is unfair to new drivers, irresponsible and reckless.
Riders don't pay us at all. Not a cent.
oober says it is not a transport service, just an app. Yet oober invoices the rider, and oober is paid by the rider.
In fact, as has been proven in the US and here, oober charges the rider, and what oober tells us it invoiced the rider is sometimes much less than it actually does charge the rider.
In Europe, the courts have ruled oober is a taxi service and drivers are employees.
Just an app, pfft...


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## Paul Collins

Hugh G said:


> Using this logic....
> 
> Then 99% of the forum contributors "have zero credibility" !
> 
> Paul may I respectfully suggest that it might be a better result for all if you asked your Moderator Mates to set up an area for only those members who submit a legal identity check before being allowed to contribute.
> 
> "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."


Ah no. I am simply pointing out that anonymous bots, with no means to verify identity, should be treated as that, an unviable unreliable source of information. Members should contact the ato at the contacts above to ensure they comply.

I will no longer feed trolls and I hope members here can quite clearly identify those members that just want to troll, rather than have a constructive debate.

If you have contacted the ato and been given the same information I was given, or if your accountant has made it quite clear the you must have an abn and be gst registered, please comment.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Our 'chat' is over as it is clear that your advice is dangerous and wrong and coming from an anonymous source, it should be totally ignored.


My advice is the safest course of action that anyone can take: get a private ruling from the ATO. That's true regardless of identities.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> My advice is the safest course of action that anyone can take: get a private ruling from the ATO. That's true regardless of identities.


And while they wait for the ruling, not paying any GST, they run a very real risk of then having to pay a lump sum.

Well I suppose we have at least moved past your clear cut advice that some Uber drivers do not need an abn or gst registration as now your 'advice' is to seek a ruling. Thanks.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> And while they wait for the ruling, not paying any GST, they run a very real risk of then having to pay a lump sum.
> 
> Well I suppose we have at least moved past your clear cut advice that some Uber drivers do not need an abn or gst registration as now your 'advice' is to seek a ruling. Thanks.


I have never given any advice that a particular driver is operating as a hobby. Is it possible that *a* driver somewhere is not operating as an enterprise? Yes it is. And saying that is not giving any advice.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> I have never given any advice that a particular driver is operating as a hobby. Is it possible that *a* driver somewhere is not operating as an enterprise? Yes it is. And saying that is not giving any advice.


Ah no. No driver can run Rideshare driving as a hobby or a non enterprise. 
We agree to disagree.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Ah no. No driver can run Rideshare driving as a hobby or a non enterprise.
> We agree to disagree.


And here you are giving advice to every driver. See the difference?


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> And here you are giving advice to every driver. See the difference?


Correct. My advice is that no Uber driver can be considered as a non enterprise and they must be gst registered and have an abn. 
I also advise all drivers to verify this with the ATO as their advice and direction has been very clear in this regard.

Once again I have happy to disagree with an anonymous bot.


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## Bandy

Paul Collins said:


> Correct. My advice is that no Uber driver can be considered as a non enterprise and they must be gst registered and have an abn.
> I also advise all drivers to verify this with the ATO as their advice and direction has been very clear in this regard.
> 
> Once again I have happy to disagree with an anonymous bot.


But, um, who do you think you are to offer tax advice? Do you have a FSL?
Are you an accredited CPA?
Or just a fraud?
By your own definition, you're advising bots, all of us are bots. Your advice and direction has been very clear in this regard.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> Correct. My advice is that no Uber driver can be considered as a non enterprise and they must be gst registered and have an abn.
> I also advise all drivers to verify this with the ATO as their advice and direction has been very clear in this regard.













Paul Collins said:


> Once again I have happy to disagree with an anonymous bot.


We already know you don't understand that identity has nothing to do with whether or not an argument is logically correct. You don't need to keep demonstrating it.


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## Who is John Galt?

UberDriverAU said:


> Logic, rational thought, and comprehension ability certainly aren't Paul's strong points.


That is a good point.
Does he have any strong points?
More to the point, other than self-aggrandisement and wasting bandwidth, does he have any points at all?

It is a moot point.
*Or* more correctly, as the point is of no consequence, it would be as Joey Tribbiani wisely observed in the 'Friends' episode - 'The One Where Chandler Doesn't Like Dogs'- it is a *moo *point.

*Joey:* Yeah, it's like a cow's opinion. It just doesn't matter. It's moo.

And this of course leads us to a 'break point' which is usually a place or time at which an interruption or change is made. If I was a betting man, I would bet my Porsche that the OP is unable to take a break point from his self obsession and change from making pointless spam posts in regards to taxation and GST.

The real point is that it would be pointless to take taxation advice from someone who has shown himself to be deficient in general taxation matters on many, many occasions and anybody with half a brain would steer clear of someone who proudly shows an avatar with the vital piece of the puzzle missing.

The avatar constantly reminds me of the Fawlty Towers episode 'Communication Problems' where Mrs. Richards hits her head, and Basil proceeds to pick up a random dust speck and asks, "_Is this a piece of your brain_?





.


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## UberDriverAU

Who is John Galt? said:


> That is a good point.
> Does he have any strong points?
> More to the point, other than self-aggrandisement and wasting bandwidth, does he have any points at all?
> 
> It is a moot point.
> *Or* more correctly, as the point is of no consequence, it would be as Joey Tribbiani wisely observed in the 'Friends' episode - 'The One Where Chandler Doesn't Like Dogs'- it is a *moo *point.
> 
> *Joey:* Yeah, it's like a cow's opinion. It just doesn't matter. It's moo.
> 
> And this of course leads us to a 'break point' which is usually a place or time at which an interruption or change is made. If I was a betting man, I would bet my Porsche that the OP is unable to take a break point from his self obsession and change from making pointless spam posts in regards to taxation and GST.
> 
> The real point is that it would be pointless to take taxation advice from someone who has shown himself to be deficient in general taxation matters on many, many occasions and anybody with half a brain would steer clear of someone who proudly shows an avatar with the vital piece of the puzzle missing.
> 
> The avatar constantly reminds me of the Fawlty Towers episode 'Communication Problems' where Mrs. Richards hits her head, and Basil proceeds to pick up a random dust speck and asks, "_Is this a piece of your brain_?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


On point.


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## UberDriverAU

No comment Paul Collins?










Have you "noted" that it doesn't say you will _always and in every circumstance_ be carrying on an enterprise if you drive for Uber?


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## Sydney Uber

UberDriverAU said:


> Do you have a private ruling from the ATO? If not, they haven't given you binding advice. And I wouldn't trust your ability to comprehend what you've been told, or give relevant facts so you can be given correct advice.
> 
> You like to spin things to make it look like you're saving people from something. The delusions of grandeur continue. The best advice that can be given to anyone here is to apply to the ATO for a private ruling if you want certainty about how the ATO will apply tax laws to your particular circumstances. Ignore whatever Paul Collins has to say, because history shows he has little clue what he's talking about.


It's not Paul Collins that is providing the advice, he is distributing it from the ATO. Read the links he posts. They are not his. I have NO idea why you are so anti-information.



UberDriverAU said:


> No comment Paul Collins?
> 
> View attachment 191260
> 
> 
> Have you "noted" that it doesn't say you will _always and in every circumstance_ be carrying on an enterprise if you drive for Uber?


So then it is up to you to prove otherwise, fighting the ATO. My view is you have Buckley's chance of winning that argument .


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## UberDriverAU

Sydney Uber said:


> It's not Paul Collins that is providing the advice, he is distributing it from the ATO. Read the links he posts. They are not his. I have NO idea why you are so anti-information.


No, Paul Collins is not distributing the information he's received from the ATO. He's apply his own interpretation to it before telling us what he thinks it meant. The ATO's website correctly states:

If you have a ride-sourcing enterprise, you need:
...
​Nowhere does it state that *if* you do ride-sourcing *then* you are running an enterprise in all cases. I'm not anti-information, I'm anti-propaganda.

If you would rely on a purported conversation that Paul had, you're a brave man imho. Here's one recent instance of Paul saying that something is the case, then saying he's never said that before, then saying that something is the case again, then again saying he's never said that before. What goes on in that head of his is a mystery that will never be solved. He hasn't been given nicknames like Dory and Flip Flop because he has a keen intellect and a sharp memory.


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## Lowestformofwit

UberDriverAU said:


> No comment Paul Collins?
> 
> View attachment 191260
> 
> 
> Have you "noted" that it doesn't say you will _always and in every circumstance_ be carrying on an enterprise if you drive for Uber?


It seems Paul may suddenly be on an unscheduled 'holiday'.


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## Sleepo

UberDriverAU said:


> No comment Paul Collins?
> 
> View attachment 191260
> 
> 
> Have you "noted" that it doesn't say you will _always and in every circumstance_ be carrying on an enterprise if you drive for Uber?


Straight from ATO site and don't refer to general GST regs as Ride Share falls outside those, private rulings would be only way to overcome current situation

Running a ride-sourcing enterprise means you must have an ABN and be registered for GST.

You can get an ABN and register for GST at the same time if you register online, or a registered tax agent can do this for you.

Your GST registration needs to start from the date you started ride-sourcing, *regardless of your income.*


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## Who is John Galt?

Sleepo said:


> Straight from ATO site and don't refer to general GST regs as Ride Share falls outside those, private rulings would be only way to overcome current situation
> 
> Running a ride-sourcing enterprise means you must have an ABN and be registered for GST.
> 
> You can get an ABN and register for GST at the same time if you register online, or a registered tax agent can do this for you.
> 
> Your GST registration needs to start from the date you started ride-sourcing, *regardless of your income.*


How's Paul?


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## UberDriverAU

Sleepo said:


> Running a ride-sourcing enterprise means you must have an ABN and be registered for GST.


100% correct. However, if you do ride-sourcing and are *not *carrying on an enterprise then you do not need to have an ABN nor be registered for GST. The legislation makes it very clear that if you are not carrying on an enterprise, you cannot be making taxable supplies. The only difference for those who provide "taxi travel" is the lack of GST threshold, but if you are not making taxable supplies then there can be no GST to pay.


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## UberDriverAU

According to the GST legislation, you are explicitly *not* carrying on an enterprise in the following circumstances:


http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/consol_act/antsasta1999402/s9.20.html said:


> (2) However, *enterprise *does not include an activity, or series of activities, done:
> 
> (a) by a person as an employee or in connection with earning * withholding payments covered by subsection (4) (unless the activity or series is done in supplying services as the holder of an office that the person has accepted in the course of or in connection with an activity or series of activities of a kind mentioned in subsection (1)); or
> 
> Note: Acts done as mentioned in paragraph (a) will still form part of the activities of the enterprise to which the person provides work or services.
> 
> (b) as a private recreational pursuit or hobby; or
> 
> (c) by an individual (other than a trustee of a charitable fund, or of a fund covered by item 2 of the table in section 30-15 of the ITAA 1997 or of a fund that would be covered by that item if it had an ABN), or a * partnership (all or most of the members of which are individuals), without a reasonable expectation of profit or gain; or
> 
> (d) as a member of a local governing body established by or under a * State law or * Territory law (except a local governing body to which paragraph 12-45(1)(e) in Schedule 1 to the Taxation Administration Act 1953 applies).


Note that there are no exemptions from this provision if you are providing "taxi travel". So to summarise, there are three basic categories that will mean you are not carrying on an enterprise:

(1) The activity is done as an employee.

OR

(2) The activity is done as a private recreational pursuit or hobby.

OR

(3) The activity is done without a reasonable expectation of profit or gain.

I'm hopeful that this information puts this issue to bed once and for all, although I expect that it won't given the nature of some members of this forum.


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## Instyle

UberDriverAU said:


> According to the GST legislation, you are explicitly *not* carrying on an enterprise in the following circumstances:
> 
> Note that there are no exemptions from this provision if you are providing "taxi travel". So to summarise, there are three basic categories that will mean you are not carrying on an enterprise:
> 
> (1) The activity is done as an employee.
> 
> OR
> 
> (2) The activity is done as a private recreational pursuit or hobby.
> 
> OR
> 
> (3) The activity is done without a reasonable expectation of profit or gain.
> 
> I'm hopeful that this information puts this issue to bed once and for all, although I expect that it won't given the nature of some members of this forum.


That approach may have had more tact in the days of private vehicles doing infrequent Uber trips, however the days of regulation have caught up and such requirements like commercial registration, commercial drivers licence, commercial insurance and Uber own agreement with the drivers hold much weight towards running an enterprise.

Anyone that feels their circumstances are different is welcome to take their concerns directly to the ATO for clarification.


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## UberDriverAU

Instyle said:


> That approach may have had more tact in the days of private vehicles doing infrequent Uber trips, however the days of regulation have caught up and such requirements like commercial registration, commercial drivers licence, commercial insurance and Uber own agreement with the drivers hold much weight towards running an enterprise.


It's not just an approach, it's *the law*. If your activity is done as an employee, *the law* explicitly states that you are not carrying on an enterprise. If your activity is done as a hobby, *the law* explicitly states that you are not carrying on an enterprise. If your activity is done without a realistic expectation of making a profit or gain, *the law* explicitly states that you are not carrying on an enterprise. The law doesn't state that these provisions don't apply if you need licences, commercial insurance, or anything else that might be required to perform your activity. If anything, the additional costs might make it easier to have no expectation of making a profit or gain.


Instyle said:


> Anyone that feels their circumstances are different is welcome to take their concerns directly to the ATO for clarification.


That is always the best course of action.


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## tinymoon

And I doubt ATO will give a satisfactory answer, given the nature of ATo job is to collect


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## Bandy

Who is John Galt? said:


> How's Paul?


So it's ok for dory to be a bot, just nobody else?
Noted...



Lowestformofwit said:


> It seems Paul may suddenly be on an unscheduled 'holiday'.


no no, he's here...



Sleepo said:


> Straight from ATO site and don't refer to general GST regs as Ride Share falls outside those, private rulings would be only way to overcome current situation
> 
> Running a ride-sourcing enterprise means you must have an ABN and be registered for GST.
> 
> You can get an ABN and register for GST at the same time if you register online, or a registered tax agent can do this for you.
> 
> Your GST registration needs to start from the date you started ride-sourcing, *regardless of your income.*


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## Sydney Uber

UberDriverAU said:


> It's not just an approach, it's *the law*. If your activity is done as an employee, *the law* explicitly states that you are not carrying on an enterprise. If your activity is done as a hobby, *the law* explicitly states that you are not carrying on an enterprise. If your activity is done without a realistic expectation of making a profit or gain, *the law* explicitly states that you are not carrying on an enterprise. The law doesn't state that these provisions don't apply if you need licences, commercial insurance, or anything else that might be required to perform your activity. If anything, the additional costs might make it easier to have no expectation of making a profit or gain.
> 
> That is always the best course of action.


_"If your activity is done without a realistic expectation of making a profit or gain, *the law* explicitly states that you are not carrying on a enterprise." 
_
So is this a return to the original BS that Uber wanted everyone to believe when UBERX was incorrectly called "Rideshare"?

Every UBERX driver begins with the motivation to make a profit. It's not till a few months go by, some damage to the car or a major expense does reality hit that they are working for very little.


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## Lowestformofwit

Sydney Uber said:


> _"If your activity is done without a realistic expectation of making a profit or gain, *the law* explicitly states that you are not carrying on a enterprise."....._
> Every UBERX driver begins with the *motivation to make a profit*. It's not till a few months go by, some damage to the car or a major expense does reality hit that they are working for very little.


A wise accountant told me, years ago, that the INTENTION to make a profit (as highlighted above) is the ATO's sole determinant in classifying you as a business (enterprise), rather than as a hobby.
Otherwise, one could easily buy a food franchise from Retail Food Group, many of whose franchised outlets of certain products report losing money hand over fist, then call yourself a "hobby" retailer. Surely the ATO would rubber stamp that, NOT?
In being a hobby, you lose all rights to claim expenses, against any profits.
So, it comes down, for the battler drivers anyway, of a simple choice of choosing your pathway to bankruptcy.


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## UberDriverAU

Sydney Uber said:


> So is this a return to the original BS that Uber wanted everyone to believe when UBERX was incorrectly called "Rideshare"?


It doesn't say without an expectation, it says without a _realistic_ expectation. That's an important qualifier.


Sydney Uber said:


> Every UBERX driver begins with the motivation to make a profit. It's not till a few months go by, some damage to the car or a major expense does reality hit that they are working for very little.


I'm not sure how you feel that you can account for every driver's motivation.


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## Sydney Uber

UberDriverAU said:


> It doesn't say without an expectation, it says without a _realistic_ expectation. That's an important qualifier.
> 
> I'm not sure how you feel that you can account for every driver's motivation.


Ok. I won't try to account for every driver's motivation.

But if it ain't to make money, pray-tell? What can it be? Should Australian Taxpayers be subsidising part-time seat sniffers?


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## UberDriverAU

Sydney Uber said:


> Ok. I won't try to account for every driver's motivation.
> 
> But if it ain't to make money, pray-tell? What can it be? Should Australian Taxpayers be subsidising part-time seat sniffers?


Filling in spare time because they're bored is one possibility. How is a driver in that circumstance being subsidised? If they are not making a profit then they will not be paying tax anyway, and in the end it's a waste of time and resources filling out paperwork.


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## Who is John Galt?

Sydney Uber said:


> Ok. I won't try to account for every driver's motivation.
> 
> But if it ain't to make money, pray-tell? What can it be? Should Australian Taxpayers be subsidising part-time seat sniffers?


Why not? They subsidise every other activity known to man, woman and in betweens.

You name it, and there is a government grant, subsidy or handout for it. There are even government grants and handouts for dreamers to dream up government handouts, and I'm not exaggerating.

So a little bit of innocuous seat sniffing, would fall well within the government' parameters of diversity, inclusion and preciousness, I would have thought. 

Edit: additional thoughts:

I believe that some time ago in the WA parliament, there was even a minister for seat sniffing. I think his name was Buswell, which seems pretty appropriate. My memory is a little rusty on this, but UberDriverAU would be able to confirm I'm sure.


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## UberDriverAU

Who is John Galt? said:


> I believe that some time ago in the WA parliament, there was even a minister for seat sniffing. I think his name was Buswell, which seems pretty appropriate. My memory is a little rusty on this, but UberDriverAU would be able to confirm I'm sure.


Unlike some forum members, your memory serves you well! Mr Buswell was the dishonourable member for the seat of Vasse. His replacement Libby Mettam hasn't managed to get his stench out of the seat yet!


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## Who is John Galt?

UberDriverAU said:


> Unlike some forum members, your memory serves you well! Mr Buswell was the dishonourable member for the seat of Vasse. His replacement Libby Mettam hasn't managed to get his stench out of the seat yet!


What? Do you mean the Right Honourable Troy Buzzwell Buswell lost his seat? Poor bloke. Lying, cheating, conniving and ripping off the electors is OK apparently, but don't you dare sniff a seat!

I wonder what he is doing now? Probably driving Über, which would put him in a perfect position for his particular predilection. Talk about a circuitous route to the same destination!

And look!  Troy would probably be on some sort of ex ministerial benefits, so Sydney Uber was actually correct in seeing that seat sniffing in Übers is being funded by the government.

Strange days indeed.

.


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## Lowestformofwit

Who is John Galt? said:


> What? Do you mean the Right Honourable Troy Buzzwell Buswell lost his seat? .


The proverbial "Nothing to sniff at", then?


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## Who is John Galt?

Lowestformofwit said:


> The proverbial "Nothing to sniff at", then?


It may be more appropriate if the OP answered that.

He is in the 'Driver's Seat' isn't he, or is he just listening to Sniff'n the Tears ?

.


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## Lowestformofwit

Exclusive footage reveals how the hapless primary school boy, Troy, was led astray and ended up on the nose for his odourous odious behaviour.




Probably all began for him "In the Summertime".


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## Sydney Uber

Lowestformofwit said:


> A wise accountant told me, years ago, that the INTENTION to make a profit (as highlighted above) is the ATO's sole determinant in classifying you as a business (enterprise), rather than as a hobby.
> Otherwise, one could easily buy a food franchise from Retail Food Group, many of whose franchised outlets of certain products report losing money hand over fist, then call yourself a "hobby" retailer. Surely the ATO would rubber stamp that, NOT?
> In being a hobby, you lose all rights to claim expenses, against any profits.
> So, it comes down, for the battler drivers anyway, of a simple choice of choosing your pathway to bankruptcy.


I agree, but if attacked "professionally" keeping an eye on expenses, NOT repairing EVERY little scratch or damage that invariably happens, claiming EVERYTHING (and more) there is money on every Uber platform. But with new increased statutory charges the "hobby" driver really needs deep pockets to justify this hobby.


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## UberDriverAU

Who is John Galt? said:


> Troy would probably be on some sort of ex ministerial benefits


A lifetime supply of scratch and sniff books? He can relive his most famous moment till the day he dies!


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## Lowestformofwit

UberDriverAU said:


> A lifetime supply of scratch and sniff books? He can relive his most famous moment till the day he dies!


Wonder if FBT would be payable on that benefit?
We might be able to get someone to start an assertive, long running, argumentative thread on that.
After the holiday.


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## Who is John Galt?

UberDriverAU said:


> A lifetime supply of scratch and sniff books? He can relive his most famous moment till the day he dies!


That is so true! I am always impressed by your resourceful thinking, and it occurs to me that this is the sort of thing that could help the member from Coolum.

Olfaction is very a powerful sensory trigger for both retaining and recalling memory, and scratch and sniff books could be just what the doctor ordered.

This could be a revelation to our beloved Coolum Crusader. Imagine if we were able present him with a sort of 'Greatest Hits (or Misses)' in a scratch and sniff book. Just imagine the possibilities.

It could be one of those big, expensive executive type coffee table books filled with the splendour of endless colours splashed across those broad pages of the finest of photographic paper, bringing to life once again the deepest and innermost deleted thoughts of our (oh) Dear Dory.

They could even be a limited print run, and over the course of years the specially numbered copies would appreciate in value way beyond what a humble Über driver could afford or even dream of.

These books would end up in the anterooms of kings and queens, prime ministers and presidents and of course, persons fortunate enough to have the personal contact details of Über management in Queensland.

Oh course, 'Greatest Hits (or Misses) is just a working title and I am currently working through others such as -
'A Conpendium of PC's Greatest Deleted Posts'
'Dory's Missing Memories'
or 
'The Coolum Collection - Thoughts Washed up on a Beach'

Of course, I am open to other titles and invite you to get onboard with this fantastic endeavour to help bring one of our finest back from teetering on the edge of the abyss.

.


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## Jack Malarkey

Troy Buswell appears now to be the chief financial officer of Perth mining contractor Brierty: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...y/news-story/26a36faaf1104af8bafb810a78e69b17.


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## Paul Collins

After another call yesterday from the ATO to discuss GST related issue and uber driving, the consultant once again confirmed that it is very clear that uber driving requires and ABN and GST registration and therefore is an enterprise. He stated the ATO would never consider it a hobby.
Please ring the ATO yourself for clarification.


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## UberDriverAU

Paul Collins said:


> After another call yesterday from the ATO to discuss GST related issue and uber driving, the consultant once again confirmed that it is very clear that uber driving requires and ABN and GST registration and therefore is an enterprise. He stated the ATO would never consider it a hobby.
> Please ring the ATO yourself for clarification.


Or better still, apply for a private ruling which is binding, whereas a phone call is not. You do not need to be doing it as a hobby to not be carrying on an enterprise. The law is very clear on that.


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## Paul Collins

UberDriverAU said:


> Or better still, apply for a private ruling which is binding, whereas a phone call is not. You do not need to be doing it as a hobby to not be carrying on an enterprise. The law is very clear on that.


Correct, private ruling if needed but first I would suggest a call to the ATO for clarification.

The point remains, 'advice' here or any forum from any source that 'inform' drivers that they do not need or require and ABN or GST registration, is in my opinion wrong and should be ignored.

I realise that in your opinion, some may not require an ABN or GST registration, so we agree to disagree.


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## ST DYMPHNA son

...it must be a hobby for some,as some have Microsoft investing in them,Apple reporting to them,uber at their feet,writing the face recognition programme,(not very good as it can not distinguish a difference between the face and other parts of body)being a teacher,God only knows what he is pulling beside caravans and other things already listed in many posts,well most of them deleted,and still have a time to drive uber while working out how GST work in Australia,would any one dare to tell me that it is not a hobby???......or perhaps it is a sickness,and as such it would be excluded from GST altogether...
...than again,any one can claim anything as Paul does, so I might as well start getting involved with Interstellar Travel as I'm fully qualified and uber is my Partner,we have money to burn,if any one doubt me,I will simply delete this post as Paul does when he is proven to be telling a "Porkies" ...


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## Thing

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...it must be a hobby for some,as some have Microsoft investing in them,Apple reporting to them,uber at their feet,writing the face recognition programme,(not very good as it can not distinguish a difference between the face and other parts of body)being a teacher,not only a campervan puller and other things already listed in many posts,well most of them deleted,and still have a time to drive uber while working out how GST work in Australia,would any one dare to tell me that it is not a hobby???......or perhaps it is a sickness,and as such it would be excluded from GST altogether...
> ...than again,any one can claim anything and I might start getting involved with Interstellar Travel as I'm fully qualified,if any one start doubting me,I will simply delete this post...


I agree it must be a hobby, why would you do Uber if you were supposedly making 1/2 Mill off Apple 

Or could it be that someone is telling porkies to fuel their Narcissistic Personality Disorder


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## ST DYMPHNA son

Thing said:


> I agree it must be a hobby, why would you do Uber if you were supposedly making 1/2 Mill off Apple
> 
> Or could it be that someone is telling porkies to fuel their Narcissistic Personality Disorder


...it might be misunderstanding as for GST reasons the tax law is not clear here,the money is paid perhaps via Indonesia,we have already an example of such misunderstanding where 7000 members of his group was his because he was doing a cleaning or something ,if one make a few ridiculous assumptions than every claim Paul Collins made,regardless how outrageous, it will be fully reasonable and justified...
...any one know how many Indonesian Rupiahs to one Australian Dollar ???...


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## george manousaridis

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...it must be a hobby for some,as some have Microsoft investing in them,Apple reporting to them,uber at their feet,writing the face recognition programme,(not very good as it can not distinguish a difference between the face and other parts of body)being a teacher,not only a campervan puller and other things already listed in many posts,well most of them deleted,and still have a time to drive uber while working out how GST work in Australia,would any one dare to tell me that it is not a hobby???......or perhaps it is a sickness,and as such it would be excluded from GST altogether...
> ...than again,any one can claim anything and I might start getting involved with Interstellar Travel as I'm fully qualified,if any one start doubting me,I will simply delete this post...


I won't respond to this thread,blown out.What I will state,is I drive for Uber as my personal "Hobby" not and I state do not claim it as a "Hobby".What is earnt on Uber is declared to the ATO accordingly.What and how I choose to define Uber to my own use is excluding what is claimed to the ATO.



ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...it might be misunderstanding as for GST reasons the tax law is not clear here,the money is paid perhaps via Indonesia,we have already an example of such misunderstanding where 7000 members of his group was his because he was doing a cleaning or something ,if one make a few ridiculous assumptions than every claim Paul Collins made, regardless how outrageous, it will be fully reasonable and justified...
> ...anyone knows how many Indonesian Rupiahs to one Australian Dollar ???...


If a driver really wants to be generous, Donate all earnings from Uber to a chosen charity.Go figure from that one


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## george manousaridis

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> ...it might be misunderstanding as for GST reasons the tax law is not clear here,the money is paid perhaps via Indonesia,we have already an example of such misunderstanding where 7000 members of his group was his because he was doing a cleaning or something ,if one make a few ridiculous assumptions than every claim Paul Collins made,regardless how outrageous, it will be fully reasonable and justified...
> ...any one know how many Indonesian Rupiahs to one Australian Dollar ???...


Uber earnings are not a 'HOBBY"! any earnings! regardless, ANY Earnings have to be declared to the ATO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and GST and PAYG/or a Tax of 20% applied and paid, What idiot in this world doesn't know that.gets me upbeat ,every one knows they have to comply with the ATO.


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## tartakobsky

I am treating it as proper work at the moment. Doing eats monday- friday, I go out 11am-2pm, then 6:30pm-9:30pm. Usually I get about $100 a day if I complete 9-11 trips (after ubers cut).


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## UberDriverAU

george manousaridis said:


> Uber earnings are not a 'HOBBY"! any earnings! regardless, ANY Earnings have to be declared to the ATO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and GST and PAYG/or a Tax of 20% applied and paid, What idiot in this world doesn't know that.gets me upbeat ,every one knows they have to comply with the ATO.


Believe it or not georgie boy, the ATO has to conply with the law. Even if people aren't operating as a hobby, there's still the provision of the GST law relating to "a realistic expectation of profit or gain". If you don't have a realistic expectation of making a profit then you don't need an ABN and you don't need to register for GST because you aren't carrying on an enterprise according to the law. Do you know any Uber drivers who have quit because they couldn't make a profit?


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## george manousaridis

UberDriverAU said:


> Believe it or not georgie boy, the ATO has to conply with the law. Even if people aren't operating as a hobby, there's still the provision of the GST law relating to "a realistic expectation of profit or gain". If you don't have a realistic expectation of making a profit then you don't need an ABN and you don't need to register for GST because you aren't carrying on an enterprise according to the law. Do you know any Uber drivers who have quit because they couldn't make a profit?


Absolute! Any way anyone earns a $0.01 has to be deckared. Many people think or thought I claimed ridesharing as a "hobby" to the ATO.I never claimed it a hobby,but from my personal view,people.seem to be oblivious about that and have are blind or just ignorant. Not sure about what they deem.But I know as a reasonable minded person what needs to be declared.The bottom line is ATO does not give a cahoot about anything,but on money that is earnt from $0.01 and onwards. People think and have formed their opinion and as far as I am concerned Uber is the sole blame here.We all are familiar with the Uber theme.Well also for many years large companies haven't paid no tax at all.I will remind anyone to go back in history and R&D the history of this.
Name a few,The Alan Bonds,The Geelong Pyramid schemes-where Victorians got charged a levy with the fuel levy tax,IKEA,Lindfox,DP Australia and the list goes and on.One mega rich man was Keryy Packer,if people remember the things he did,selling CH9 on Bendigo St,RichmondRich so on to senate enquiries that he was exinoharated and so on. The lists go and on and it's a funny world we live in.So note for a sure thing it's not a hobby to claim and get away with no ATO compliance and yes there are ways to do things,it's the bluff of people just like when they cop a speed or red light camera infringement and they cry and.moan.One thing that I do is I research myself and do accordingly. I'm not going to write a full length story about anything because I think I will waste my time,as people won't read it .It will end up people thinking I am a rambler,so i won't go on and every one knows what to do.Cbildrwn have more brains than adults somwtimes,but what amuses me is what people come out worth.Go forth and make money.Lol good luck


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