# Surging - but no pings?



## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Last weekend in Savannah, I was in the middle of downtown Savannah when it was surging up to 2.5x. Was smack in the middle of the zone and yet no pings.

Another Savannah driver was in Chicago last weekend and had the same issue - as a rider. The rider app showed several cars near him with a 4x surge. The cars weren't disappearing. The surge lasted for over 3 1/2 hours. The Uber driver ended up taking a cab - to save money.

So what gives? Is Uber's algorithm off? If it's surging, I would expect to see fewer cars available and as a driver, I would expect instant pings.


----------



## RainbowPlate (Jul 12, 2015)

Contrary to myth and ignorance, the surge algorithm is based on projected demand, not actual demand.

"Projected" based on ... what?

Your guess is as good as mine.


----------



## ATX 22 (Jun 17, 2015)

And as has been discussed many times, the cars on the pax app are for show. They in no way represent any facsimile of actual vehicles.


----------



## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

OK - so, let's say there are phantom cars. Let's say you're totally right. Why would UBER want to show 5 cars within two blocks of you during a 4.9x surge? What on EARTH would their motivation for that be? So far, I've been able to verify real cars through the app. They're obviously delayed at least a minute or more. The drivers don't always wear their trade dress. So I call BS on the phantom car theory. BUT, if you want to hold on to that, again, what's Uber's motivation?


----------



## SharedRideTruther (Aug 20, 2015)

JimS said:


> OK - so, let's say there are phantom cars. Let's say you're totally right. Why would UBER want to show 5 cars within two blocks of you during a 4.9x surge? What on EARTH would their motivation for that be? So far, I've been able to verify real cars through the app. They're obviously delayed at least a minute or more. The drivers don't always wear their trade dress. So I call BS on the phantom car theory. BUT, if you want to hold on to that, again, what's Uber's motivation?


Phantom Uber cars are admitted by uber. 
Google it.
Phantom surges is believable.
Now, take it one step further.
Drivers get rating banged for surge fares by their riders, and uber allows it.
They manipulate, drivers get rate smacked.
Go figure


----------



## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

I was in the middle of a 3.0x surge this AM. It took 30 minutes before I got a ping at 1.4x surge. 
And suddenly the surge rates and surge areas changed in other parts of the Tampa Bay area from no surge to 2.5x surge and back to no surge. 
Lately the surge appears to be manipulated more. 
Or, people learned that surge is very short lived, and they wait for it to go away and not order any rides.


----------



## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

SharedRideTruther said:


> Phantom Uber cars are admitted by uber.
> Google it.
> Phantom surges is believable.
> Now, take it one step further.
> ...


That's fine, but if you'd like to point out which of the 2,050,000 results I should look at, how 'bout just posting a link?

I found this little ditty on Vice: 


> "The app is simply showing there are partners on the road at the time," the staffer wrote in an email. "This is not a representation of the exact numbers of drivers or their location. This is more of a visual effect letting people know that partners are searching for fares."


The screenshot shows 5 cars next to a point that says 17 minutes. Who knows? The pin isn't on the road. Perhaps its in a swamp, and it takes that long to trudge through the marsh. At any rate, I've always used my driver app in Savannah and it seems to be fully legit here.

But my quote still begs the question of the OP. Even if there ARE phantom cars, Uber says (in the form of an uncited quote from an Indian CSR with an English name) that they ARE drivers looking for fares, though perhaps misrepresented on the screen. So the cars ARE out there, and they ARE not getting pings and the area is surging. Fascinating.


----------



## ATX 22 (Jun 17, 2015)

JimS said:


> OK - so, let's say there are phantom cars. Let's say you're totally right. Why would UBER want to show 5 cars within two blocks of you during a 4.9x surge? What on EARTH would their motivation for that be? So far, I've been able to verify real cars through the app. They're obviously delayed at least a minute or more. The drivers don't always wear their trade dress. So I call BS on the phantom car theory. BUT, if you want to hold on to that, again, what's Uber's motivation?


My guess is their motivation is to appear as if there is a car within 2-3 minutes at all times.
I took screen shots with my pin placed at various places within my city and around the suburbs. There are always a minimim of 3 cars shown within 3 minutes of the pin, even in places where I know from experience there are no cars for at least a 5-10 minute lag time. I have seen cars driving in places there are no roads and in the middle of lake Travis.
Motivation for why Uber does anything is anybody's guess.


----------



## ocbob2 (Aug 18, 2015)

I do not think it is a conspiracy by Uber. I know that an area can be surging big time because of a concert letting out and 100 people are requesting uber in a half hour time period. You can be in the area 5 miles away and not get the ping but be in the surge area. Know your area and why it is surging All of a sudden at 11pm. If it is normal but you are not getting any pings, riders are waiting for it to go down to a charge that they can afford to take.


----------



## ATX 22 (Jun 17, 2015)

Pax learning to wait out the surge, or ordering when the surge rate drops down some makes total sense.
Drivers, especially really new ones, do exactly what Uber wants, which is flood the surging area with cars, which we know kills the surge.
Uber doesn't want drivers sitting outside of a surge area, because then their algorithm is actually being manipulated by the drivers, instead of by Uber. The more drivers that understand we can manipulate the surge by either staying out of it or shutting down our app, then driving in and logging on, the longer a surge would last.
I had one pax ping me 3 times during a surge this past weekend. He cancelled twice, I'm pretty sure he was trying to get the surge rate down, but it ended up being higher by the third time he pinged me, and by then I was right on top of his location. What he didn't know was that I knew there was a concert letting out and that's why I was in that area and why I was the closest car 3 times in a row. He ended up riding at a 3x surge, if he would've just gone with the first request it would have been a 1.5.
Later that night, I got a 1.5 request at one of the college housing buildings just off campus. My rider had been smart, and he waited for the surge to drop to 1.5 from a high of 3.5 before making a request. 
I also noticed something last night while playing with the pax app.
Riders are warned that they are about to order a surge priced ride, and have the ability to accept or decline, as well as get a text message when the surge pricing is finished. What I found interesting was the small print at the bottom telling pax that the x.x pricing was valid for the next 2 minutes. So in 2 minutes the price will change, they just don't know if it will go up or down.


----------



## ocbob2 (Aug 18, 2015)

I wonder about the 2 minute price lock in and why I will cancel a pax that has a request at 1.5x when it shows area is now at 2.2x. He locked in his price (he got to choose) but us drivers can be deactivated for choosing our price. This is what I believe is complete bullshit.


----------



## eyewall (Sep 6, 2015)

I finally got one on a 2.1x surge yesterday morning in Burlington, VT. The students will typically wait it out, but this person had to get to the airport. Needless to say it was one of my best fares to date given the high price for short mileage. He didn't seem upset on the ride about it either.


----------



## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

I'm in the middle of surged areas all the time but never get any surge pings.

Furthermore, i'll get a ping that wants to take me a few miles outside of the surge.


----------



## SharedRideTruther (Aug 20, 2015)

Robert Estuar said:


> I'm in the middle of surged areas all the time but never get any surge pings.
> 
> Furthermore, i'll get a ping that wants to take me a few miles outside of the surge.


Those outside the surge pings normally end up being in the surge area, but they drop the pin outside, then call to 'change address' to one actually in the surge area.
Sneaky little riders.
Indeed


----------



## ocbob2 (Aug 18, 2015)

SharedRideTruther said:


> Those outside the surge pings normally end up being in the surge area, but they drop the pin outside, then call to 'change address' to one actually in the surge area.
> Sneaky little riders.
> Indeed


Have We Ever Got an answer about accepting the ride and getting it adjusted based on the actual pick up was located? I would love to accept it like I was stupid then get that bad boy to its actual price...after they rated us.


----------



## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

SharedRideTruther said:


> Phantom Uber cars are admitted by uber.
> Google it.
> Phantom surges is believable.
> Now, take it one step further.
> ...


Google "Uber phantom cars" and the very top result..."Uber denies phantom cars" looks like you need to do better research before you become a "truther".


----------



## SharedRideTruther (Aug 20, 2015)

limepro said:


> Google "Uber phantom cars" and the very top result..."Uber denies phantom cars" looks like you need to do better research before you become a "truther".


I understand, but Bill Clinton also said he "never had relations with that woman", and we know the truth of that, and kinda like the police "internally investigating" any charges made against them is how I see Ubers stance on these facts.

here's some sauce

*http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/uber-maps-full-of-phantom-cars/*

*Uber's real time car map is fake (Wired UK) - Wired.co.uk*

*http://www.inc.com/tess-townsend/uber-passengers-report-phantom-cars.html*

Or, just believe Uber, and put cookies out for santa clause (oops, he may not exist)


----------



## SharedRideTruther (Aug 20, 2015)

JimS said:


> That's fine, but if you'd like to point out which of the 2,050,000 results I should look at, how 'bout just posting a link?
> 
> I found this little ditty on Vice:
> 
> ...


posted some links further down, just for you.

i didn't realize google only worked where I am, sorry


----------



## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

SharedRideTruther said:


> I understand, but Bill Clinton also said he "never had relations with that woman", and we know the truth of that, and kinda like the police "internally investigating" any charges made against them is how I see Ubers stance on these facts.
> 
> here's some sauce
> 
> ...


Your statement said that Uber admitted they have phantom cars on the app, you were proven wrong and now you come with 3rd party stuff, that isn't what you said. If you want to be taken seriously at least get your story straight.


----------



## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

And both links you posted reference the same "study".


----------



## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

SharedRideTruther said:


> posted some links further down, just for you.
> 
> i didn't realize google only worked where I am, sorry


No. My google works fine. Just wanna know why I have to go hunting for something to defend your statements. And, yes, everything refers back to that same article from Vice. Very ambiguous. Very poorly sourced. Hardly "proof".


----------



## SharedRideTruther (Aug 20, 2015)

JimS said:


> No. My google works fine. Just wanna know why I have to go hunting for something to defend your statements. And, yes, everything refers back to that same article from Vice. Very ambiguous. Very poorly sourced. Hardly "proof".


Having uber say they don't have phantom cars, when insiders say there are phantoms, makes perfect sense. 
Your tip is also included in the fare.
Your personal insurance plus Uber's James river is adequate for you too.
Believe what you will, from the same source who pays you 10 bucks an hour, expenses excluded, to share your ride.
Wink, wink.


----------



## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

When was the last time Uber said Tip was included. Everyone here is hounding on a problem that Uber corrected quite some time ago. When you look at the exponential growth and the retention of drivers as well as riders, I don't think ANYONE is getting the message that Tip is Included. Tipping is not necessary is the lasted buzz line, and yeah - that sucks socks. But everyone here has GOT to get over this TIPPING IS INCLUDED BS!


----------



## limepro (Mar 7, 2015)

Tipping was included in the beginning since the company started as a taxi/black car service which had a 20% tip added that the user was able to change. Problem was they didn't change the wording when uberx began and it caused them problems, they have since changed it but riders held on to the original idea.


----------



## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Oh yes, I certainly get that it was worded wrong in the beginning. Uber could make it really right really easy by adding the feature like Lyft does. Better yet, just stop saying anything about tipping at all. Let the market decide.


----------



## 80sDude (Jul 20, 2015)

JimS said:


> Another Savannah driver was in Chicago last weekend and had the same issue - as a rider. The rider app showed several cars near him with a 4x surge. The cars weren't disappearing. The surge lasted for over 3 1/2 hours. The Uber driver ended up taking a cab - to save money.


I was driving this surge and it was indeed WEIRD.. It peaked at 4.9 .. I did get a few pings at 3.1 ( Short rides though).. I was in this surge for 45 mins and not a single ping when it get's this high.. Uber raise the rates and get rid of surge..


----------



## Uberest (Jul 29, 2015)

Being in a surge zone is no guarantee of getting a surge ping. You might but you might not. Its not a scam by Uber, they are trying to moderate and arbitrage supply and demand. Surge areas are predictive, they cannot be "real time" demand, at least because there is no rider "demand" until a rider actually requests a ride. Probably it is based on heuristics having as inputs historical demand, number of drivers in the area and factors that affect demand such as weather. 

When surge pricing is in effect, rider can wait it out or be notified when surge subsides. The time that you almost always get pings in a surge area is when the surge goes away. As usually the case the ping will go to the closest driver to the rider, so even if you are in the surge area you need to be closest to the driver to get the ping.

This is why most drivers counsel not to "chase" surges. It can be a waste of time. If its 1 mile away, fine, but if significant effort probably not worth the time to go there. By the time you get there, the surge may subside and/or other drivers have satiated whatever the actual demand actually turned out to be.


----------



## 80sDude (Jul 20, 2015)

Point is the surge was too high... The whole city was surge... Nobody requested a ride.. Raise the rates..


----------

