# The Real Truth About Uber and The Drivers



## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

*Uber may not be as invincible as it seems. Investors may going to stop funding this dog and pony show until this problem is fixed.*

Here is a journalist that pretty much has Uber figured out:

http://observer.com/2015/11/how-uber-drivers-could-trip-up-ceo-travis-kalanick


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## UberMensch2015 (Jan 29, 2015)

Fantastic article. Hit everything right except failed to discuss tips. Otherwise the best journalistic approach to uber I've read so far, thank you for sharing.


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## tripAces (Jun 18, 2015)

Nice article. Its right there. And yes Uber does what most corporations do to workers. Replace!
One day it will hit a brick wall. And there won't be as many people that will want to drive. Just like its hard for WalMart to find employees right now.

I discourage alot with the honest truth about Uber. I always mention the issues that can happen and no alert system in the app to call for help. Then I mention the over saturation and additional
insurance most have to buy do to State Regulations.
It sours alot of people. They really think its submit to Uber and drive.
In Houston you have to pay $150 or so for TNC license. And as of Jan 1st 2016 we have to have the rideshare insurance.


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## CrazyUberdriver (Jul 12, 2015)

Yesterday I received a request via email to take a short survey on my opinions as an uber driver. I was paid 10.00 to take the survey. I was very happy to take since it addressed many of the concerns of all uber drivers. I thought finally they are going to listen. Some of the topics included what I thought about Travis,I wanted to say who is that,but I rated him badly. Also it asked what I make in a typical month driving for uber,and what my actual expenses are.Also it asked me to compare uber to Apple,Walmart,Amazon,Lyft,using one word descriptions, For uber I used cheap and greedy, Amazon innovative,Lyft-friendly,Walmart- thrifty as examples.It also asked if I could tell Travis one thing that could make uber better for drivers,what would it be. Raise rates was my reply,drivers are treated cheaply because it is cheap. Drivers love to drive and to help people,use that to their advantage and keep good drivers,by paying them more. Also a passenger gave me a good suggestion which I shared,allow riders to favorite drivers,so they get the ride if they happen to be in the area when a ride is requested,happy riders-happy drivers,no more stupid ratings based on a few disgruntled riders.


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## Uberest (Jul 29, 2015)

Its a good article.... will be interesting to see what happens to Uber when the economy picks up, i.e. drivers will find better gigs that don't beat up their car while rider requests increase. Uber has been fortunate that it was and is being developed in a poor economy. Things will change.


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## Einstein (Oct 10, 2015)

Uberest said:


> ....will be interesting to see what happens to Uber when the economy picks up, i.e. drivers will find better gigs that don't beat up their car while rider requests increase. Uber has been fortunate that it was and is being developed in a poor economy. Things will change.


You're an optimist. I would ask the opposite question - how will uber react when the economy goes into the tank? How will their actions affect the drivers?
Just watch the pricing.


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## Uberest (Jul 29, 2015)

Einstein said:


> You're an optimist. I would ask the opposite question - how will uber react when the economy goes into the tank? How will their actions affect the drivers?
> Just watch the pricing.


Not an optimist.....looking at history the economy always rebounds eventually and continues to grow -- just a question of when. Population continues to grow.

We can see what Uber does when economy in the tank. Uber varies its pricing by markets, in economically desperate markets the prices are lowest unless Uber is brand new to that market, prices high to attract drivers then prices cut.

Uber does not exist to make money for drivers. That is not why they are organized and it is not where they are going. To folks on this board who want Uber to raise rates, do better for drivers more money/benefits etc -- get over it!! not going to happen.


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## Uberest (Jul 29, 2015)

Uber also fiddles with driver qualifications. For example, in Delaware, you can drive a car as old as 2000 and still qualify.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Those aren't necessarily Uber's requirements. In Savannah, vehicles must be less than 10 years old. 2005 cars get deactivated in January. That's Georgia law.

As much as the haters get on my nerves here, I do like the article. It's probably the most honest approach at understanding driver's grievances.


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## POMilton (Oct 21, 2015)

CrazyUberdriver said:


> Yesterday I received a request via email to take a short survey on my opinions as an uber driver. I was paid 10.00 to take the survey. I was very happy to take since it addressed many of the concerns of all uber drivers. I thought finally they are going to listen. Some of the topics included what I thought about Travis,I wanted to say who is that,but I rated him badly. Also it asked what I make in a typical month driving for uber,and what my actual expenses are.Also it asked me to compare uber to Apple,Walmart,Amazon,Lyft,using one word descriptions, For uber I used cheap and greedy, Amazon innovative,Lyft-friendly,Walmart- thrifty as examples.It also asked if I could tell Travis one thing that could make uber better for drivers,what would it be. Raise rates was my reply,drivers are treated cheaply because it is cheap. Drivers love to drive and to help people,use that to their advantage and keep good drivers,by paying them more. Also a passenger gave me a good suggestion which I shared,allow riders to favorite drivers,so they get the ride if they happen to be in the area when a ride is requested,happy riders-happy drivers,no more stupid ratings based on a few disgruntled riders.


You got paid for that? I didn't, I just trashed the company.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Bob Reynolds said:


> *Uber may not be as invincible as it seems. Investors may going to stop funding this dog and pony show until this problem is fixed.*
> 
> Here is a journalist that pretty much has Uber figured out:
> 
> http://observer.com/2015/11/how-uber-drivers-could-trip-up-ceo-travis-kalanick


Nice article. As long as Uber is able to keep recruiting new drivers as the old ones quit they will keep growing. When recruitment slows down investors will get scared. It's obvious that Uber puts more effort and resources into recruitment than maintaining current "partners". I will never refer a driver to Uber no matter what the incentive! Instead of a work strike we should all agree to not help Uber with recruitment. Then they'll have to put more resources into "partner" retention to keep growing. Right now it seems like Uber doesn't even have a category for partner retention expenses. Let's change that by not helping with recruitment!


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## Uberselectguy (Oct 16, 2015)

Good read!

My take from talking to Silicon Valley friends in the business is that Ubers VC partners are tightening the noose on Travis's limited rope. Recruitment expenses are too high. The foolish and reckless claims of high earnings are embarrassing to the company after media reports like what appears in this thread.

Drivers must push the message. Posting onto Ubers Facebook page is one of the best.


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## ATL2SD (Aug 16, 2015)

Uberselectguy said:


> Good read!
> 
> My take from talking to Silicon Valley friends in the business is that Ubers VC partners are tightening the noose on Travis's limited rope. Recruitment expenses are too high. The foolish and reckless claims of high earnings are embarrassing to the company after media reports like what appears in this thread.
> 
> Drivers must push the message. Posting onto Ubers Facebook page is one of the best.


Nice!!


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

There is absolutely no question that the driver pay is going to be a central point of discussion from any future investors going forward with Uber. Investors are always looking for a reason not to invest. This driver pay issue will cause investors back away. 

This is just like companies back away when they "discover" overseas sweat shops are providing goods from substandard facilities using unfair labor.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

UberMensch2015 said:


> Fantastic article. Hit everything right except failed to discuss tips. Otherwise the best journalistic approach to uber I've read so far, thank you for sharing.


He hit the important structural concerns which are far more pressing concerns. He addressed the distribution of power relative to the drivers burden of owning the actual car.

That Uber is able to tell pax tips are included is not acceptable, however, it is just one of the countless side effects of what is really broken. To stop Uber from encouraging pax to believe tips is one thing, but what really needs to be reformed would keep such problems from arising in the future in other forms.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Uber hasn't said that tips are included for quite some time, now. Why do I have to keep reminding you that?


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

JimS said:


> Uber hasn't said that tips are included for quite some time, now. Why do I have to keep reminding you that?


First I've heard it. Don't recall repeatedly having dialogue with yo over anything in particular for that matter.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

JimS said:


> Uber hasn't said that tips are included for quite some time, now. Why do I have to keep reminding you that?


Do all Uber pax still have the ability to set their account up such that they are given the ability to automatically tip their "Uber taxi" driver a specific percentage? I would suggest at the very minimum that is deceptive considering the vast majority of Uber pax will never find themselves in an Uber taxi by this point in time. At that stage of the game, most pax seem to believe that tip goes for their UberX driver as well.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

I guess it's not been you I've been reminding, but it's been someone. You have mentioned it quite a bit in your posts, though. It's been Uber's policy for over a year now. Here's a Business Insider article from October, 2014:


> "Being Uber means there is no need to tip drivers with any of our services," Uber says in a blog post. This does not mean your Uber driver is receiving a tip, necessarily.
> 
> Your Uber fare includes a 20% tip when you take UberTAXI, a partnership between Uber and existing taxi services. But if you're riding in an UberX, UberBlack, or UberSUV vehicle, there's no way to include a tip for your driver.


The current mantra is "With Uber, there is no need to tip". That's true. That's what we all signed up for (since last year anyway). Never to have our tips included. With very few riders that have been on that long, there are still a few riders that believe that tip is included. If asked, the answer is "Tips are not included, but not necessary." Then they offer again, and you take it.

As for UberTaxi, it's defaulted to 20%, but you can adjust your default prior to a ride. No way to adjust it after the fact, so far as I can tell.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

JimS said:


> I guess it's not been you I've been reminding, but it's been someone. You have mentioned it quite a bit in your posts, though. It's been Uber's policy for over a year now. Here's a Business Insider article from October, 2014:
> 
> The current mantra is "There is no need to tip". That's true. That's what we all signed up for (since last year anyway). Never to have our tips included. With very few riders that have been on that long, there are still a few riders that believe that tip is included. If asked, the answer is "Tips are not included, but not necessary." Then they offer again, and you take it.
> 
> As for UberTaxi, it's defaulted to 20%, but you can adjust your default prior to a ride. No way to adjust it after the fact, so far as I can tell.


As far as the tipping issue goes, I personally feel, it is an overblown issue and a side effect of much greater concerns. The representation and attempt to control the tipping culture is critical to the drivers for the reason that so much is very broken and in need of reform.

The issue of tipping by my estimation is such a sore spot has much to do with Uber's ability to charge rates below what is competitive, it also exemplifies a kind of intrusive posture that Uber often imposes between driver and pax.

Personally, I do not have too much of a problem if Uber suggests the format is designed to remove the need for tipping, so long as they drop the claim the tip is in fact included. Getting back to the OP........ I believe the author of the article was on point and focused on the bigger, more relevant structural concerns.

In the last few months, slowly but surely journalists seem to be catching on and writing more meaningful pieces concerning Uber's behavior.

- I should suggest that it is possible you have mentioned in the past Uber no longer claims tips are included...... other than as an example of past direct lies, I se it as a mere side effect and may have filed away what you shared and forgotten it. If what matters gets fixed, this stuff will simply get worked out. It would have to at that point.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Peace. Sorry if I came across as being crass. This place has sorta done that to me. Uber hasn't. Uberpeople.net has.

What really needs to be disseminated by the media is the systematic destruction of driver's wages. I would love to see some empirical data on the history of fares for any given city. In my town, we've only had one fare adjustment and that was when they increased the Safe Rider Fee from $1 to $1.60. True, our earnings were lowered, but Uber's take increased without benefiting the driver.

Let's take a look at my last week's earnings. I had $380 deposited. Riders paid $537 - of which $62 were fees. $56 were SRF's. Before October, that number was $35. That's an additional $21 Uber collected that I don't get any % of. Overall, Uber is collecting 30% today vs 26% last month.

The Safe Rider Fee should be strictly the insurance premium to James River. Uber should somehow make do on the technology, background checks, licensing where required, and most of all, taxes, out of the 20%.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

JimS said:


> What really needs to be disseminated by the media is the systematic destruction of driver's wages. I would love to see some empirical data on the history of fares for any given city.


Couldn't agree more. Though not wages mind you.... wages are for employees. That could be thought of as a Freudian slip if it came out of the mouth of an Uber executive. Drivers earn their money. As a general rule, new markets seem to bring typical taxi rates. Once a reasonable number of pax and drivers is created, Uber start to surge from there in order to flood a town with cars. Upon maturity, rates then drop, often in 20% intervals. Hourly guarantees seem to help create a buffer for various transitions. Rates are terraced from city t city to create stability through differing perspectives. The surge system rewards those with mney already who can afford to cherry pick. "A history of fares" perfectly good request. I hope to read the same report soon enough.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

JimS said:


> That's an additional $21 Uber collected that I don't get any % of.


Considering you are classified and encouraged to think of yourself as an independent contractor and you own the car you drive for hire, you as a driver seem to have zero of the expected agency to make any decision above and beyond logging on or off the driver's app.

In my opinion, and my opinion isn't based on much other than I happen to be opinionated, much of the talk of drivers collectively bargaining for higher $/mile is a bit off target. Drivers should be fighting for the right to act and be treated as true independent contractors rather than half-assed employees. I often read about how Uber rates simply need to be set at or around 3/4 the local taxi rates, allow or encourage tipping and be done. Aside from ignoring what allowed the issues to arise, it ignores the fact that Uber drivers driver various cars, some of those cars have much higher associated driving costs. Also, some drivers can afford to do nothing but cherry pick the surge and are happy to do so.

One idea for modulating drivers is to consider having "X" amount of driver slots available in any given market. It could be a tiered system. There could be for example (purely fictional numbers) 100 driver slots available for drivers willing to drive at base rates (1x) and above. Then you could create spots for drivers who are only interested to work at rates of say 2x, they wouldn't be allowed to log on unless the demand was high enough to warrant a 2x surge. the moment the surge dropped below that threshold, they would be knocked off the app.

Cherry pickers would be forced to only cherry pick. They couldn't have it both ways. Drivers should be able to set their own rates and they could set them in relation to their operating cost and willingness to be selective.

That way, in theory and this scheme is approximately 3 minutes old........ Uber drivers could avoid having to trip all over each other. Who is eligible for what slots, that could be worked out a number of ways, seniority is one way I suppose.

Drivers could push for some sort of protocol which forces drivers to obey what surge pricing is trying to encourage. In Uberland, reality is turned on its head. taxi companies, not being divorced from the cost of car ownership are forced to leave money on the table during peak volume. Uber turns it upside down and takes it a step farther: they allow only idle cars to be booked. great for pax, crappy for drivers. You get run around far more, rates are low.

It would be interesting to see if drivers could force a system which limited the number of drivers allowed on app as demand dropped. that needs to be addressed somehow, someway.


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## Matt Uterak (Jul 28, 2015)

If rates were minimum $1.50 per mile, .22 a minute you would have a stable driver pool and people would still use it.

I doubt most riders would stop using the service if the cost was higher. Few people are going worry about an extra $1 or 2 on the average ride.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Uberest said:


> Its a good article.... will be interesting to see what happens to Uber when the economy picks up, i.e. drivers will find better gigs that don't beat up their car while rider requests increase. Uber has been fortunate that it was and is being developed in a poor economy. Things will change.


The economy won't pick up if the Uber business model works. It's a system that somewhat feeds itself. The more it succeeds, the more desperate people there are to do the work.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

Matt Uterak said:


> If rates were minimum $1.50 per mile, .22 a minute you would have a stable driver pool and people would still use it.
> 
> I doubt most riders would stop using the service if the cost was higher. Few people are going worry about an extra $1 or 2 on the average ride.


That seems rather arbitrary. Drivers have never been encouraged to protect themselves with more comprehensive insurance. The need to have money set aside to cover the deductible, potential surprise repair, eventual replacement of car, most drivers have never been encouraged to give those concerns much thought. Commercial insurance would enable drivers to actually develop and diversify their business.

Another thing to consider: Uber's model thrives on disruption and instability, they put a fleet of cars on the road intended to serve peak demand. The number of cars on the road is designed to rise and fall as a function of the dynamic pricing model. They already have a huge number of drivers in most places, even if those numbers themselves are not all that stable from a day to day perspective.

$1.50 an hour plus .22/minute, is arbitrary and I personally highly doubt sustainable unless you are a cherry picker. Under Uber's current structure, in order to make it work...... at some point prices simple need to drop below what is acceptable for drivers. If prices didn't drop, everyone, including those who drive as a hobby would be out there all the time. Drivers would grow bored, they might make money on individual calls, but the calls would be few and far between. The surge, a kind of rags to riches promise creates a certain kind of inertia that is key.

Just to raise the rates isn't going to do it. If drivers truly are independent contractors, you should not be allowed to collectively bargain. Teamster truck drivers are employees and work at collectively bargained rates. Independent truckers set their own terms and rates. That is a simple example.


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## RachelD (Sep 13, 2015)

CrazyUberdriver said:


> Yesterday I received a request via email to take a short survey on my opinions as an uber driver. I was paid 10.00 to take the survey. I was very happy to take since it addressed many of the concerns of all uber drivers. I thought finally they are going to listen. Some of the topics included what I thought about Travis,I wanted to say who is that,but I rated him badly. Also it asked what I make in a typical month driving for uber,and what my actual expenses are.Also it asked me to compare uber to Apple,Walmart,Amazon,Lyft,using one word descriptions, For uber I used cheap and greedy, Amazon innovative,Lyft-friendly,Walmart- thrifty as examples.It also asked if I could tell Travis one thing that could make uber better for drivers,what would it be. Raise rates was my reply,drivers are treated cheaply because it is cheap. Drivers love to drive and to help people,use that to their advantage and keep good drivers,by paying them more. Also a passenger gave me a good suggestion which I shared,allow riders to favorite drivers,so they get the ride if they happen to be in the area when a ride is requested,happy riders-happy drivers,no more stupid ratings based on a few disgruntled riders.


Wow! I got duped. I did the same Uber survey for FREE!


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Tell


JimS said:


> I guess it's not been you I've been reminding, but it's been someone. You have mentioned it quite a bit in your posts, though. It's been Uber's policy for over a year now. Here's a Business Insider article from October, 2014:
> 
> The current mantra is "With Uber, there is no need to tip". That's true. That's what we all signed up for (since last year anyway). Never to have our tips included. With very few riders that have been on that long, there are still a few riders that believe that tip is included. If asked, the answer is "Tips are not included, but not necessary." Then they offer again, and you take it.
> 
> As for UberTaxi, it's defaulted to 20%, but you can adjust your default prior to a ride. No way to adjust it after the fact, so far as I can tell.


Tell you what. Go to the thread about the Woody show and listen to the radio show where he's says ... Well why not find out what people really think when the hear "tip is not necessary"

Spoiler alert - they hear "tip is included"

And why when I wrote Uber support last week did I get this

" When driving with Uber, partners are not allowed to accept tips "

thehappytypist this was in the middle of a longer reply.


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## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

Good article, but posted on an online rag no one reads.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Huberis said:


> As far as the tipping issue goes, I personally feel, it is an overblown issue and a side effect of much greater concerns. The representation and attempt to control the tipping culture is critical to the drivers for the reason that so much is very broken and in need of reform.
> 
> The issue of tipping by my estimation is such a sore spot has much to do with Uber's ability to charge rates below what is competitive, it also exemplifies a kind of intrusive posture that Uber often imposes between driver and pax.
> 
> ...


Agreed. The tipping issue is important, but really just a sideshow compared to the other problems. Rates, market flooding, commission...these are all more important to individual drivers.


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## tripAces (Jun 18, 2015)

Sacto Burbs said:


> Tell
> 
> Tell you what. Go to the thread about the Woody show and listen to the radio show where he's says ... Well why not find out what people really think when the hear "tip is not necessary"
> 
> ...


That's funny the CSR says that.

The driver video that comes up after submitting to Uber said different. 
Yes I actually paid attention. It said don't expect tips but be appreciative if you do. That was 5 months ago.


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## KMANDERSON (Jul 19, 2015)

JimS said:


> Peace. Sorry if I came across as being crass. This place has sorta done that to me. Uber hasn't. Uberpeople.net has.
> 
> What really needs to be disseminated by the media is the systematic destruction of driver's wages. I would love to see some empirical data on the history of fares for any given city. In my town, we've only had one fare adjustment and that was when they increased the Safe Rider Fee from $1 to $1.60. True, our earnings were lowered, but Uber's take increased without benefiting the driver.
> 
> ...


the tips are not something I care about.The per mile rate is.All market should be at least 1.50 and the reason there not is because lyft and uber competing with each other.And the person that losses money are the drivers cause both of these company have billion from investors.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Huberis said:


> Couldn't agree more. Though not wages mind you.... wages are for employees. That could be thought of as a Freudian slip if it came out of the mouth of an Uber executive.


True. I rephrase to "fares". I did a small spot check of several cities rates between 5/20/15 and today using the fare chart in this forum under "Resources" above. Not enough time to compile all cities, though I may trudge through them eventually, I have found that the majority of the cities didn't change anything more than the Safe Rider Fee. However, many cities rates did drop while others slightly increased. Here's some of the results. But first the assumptions. Take away is based on a 5-mile, 7.5 minute trip (average 40 MPH). Most drivers didn't see a change to their earnings, though Uber kept more of what the customer charged.

For instance, a typical city would be the first one on the alphabetical list, Akron, OH. Whereas the fares haven't changed, the net effect of the SRF increase from $1 to $1.85 is that the driver keeps 69% of the fare rather than 73%. This is the average shift across all 25 cities in my sampling. Atlanta saw a slight increase as did Los Angeles. Many markets saw a sharp decrease in fares and an increase of Uber's take. Let's look at Florida's Central Atlantic Coast for example. The aforementioned example would cost a rider $13.50 in May where the driver received $10, or 74%. Today, that ride costs the rider $9.93, the driver keeps $6.70, or 69%. That's a $3.30 drop in revenue for the same work. If you can turn 4 5-mile trips an hour, that's a take home decrease of $13.20 per hour.

Folks - that's empirical data on what Uber is doing to its drivers. Not all cities are that bad, but if I were to compare some of those numbers to 2 years ago, we'd be startled.

For what it's worth, of the 25 cities I sampled, Uber's revenue went up by 9% and drivers earnings went down by 6% - and that all with a net revenue decrease of 2%.

What makes this entire exercise difficult is the huge difference in every single market - over 140 in the US alone, with every one making different changes.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Uber's own study concluded that Uber driver's drive 1.4 trips per hour. There is no way for a driver to increase the number of trips per hour because there are still only 60 minutes in an hour. 

So dropping the rate might attract more riders for Uber, but it is impossible for a Uber driver to drive more than 1.4 trips per hour. 

Therefore the only result that can happen is that drivers are getting paid less to drive those 1.4 trips per hour.


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## UberBlackPr1nce (Dec 28, 2014)

UberTaxPro said:


> Nice article. As long as Uber is able to keep recruiting new drivers as the old ones quit they will keep growing. When recruitment slows down investors will get scared. It's obvious that Uber puts more effort and resources into recruitment than maintaining current "partners". I will never refer a driver to Uber no matter what the incentive! Instead of a work strike we should all agree to not help Uber with recruitment. Then they'll have to put more resources into "partner" retention to keep growing. Right now it seems like Uber doesn't even have a category for partner retention expenses. Let's change that by not helping with recruitment!


sounds nice but there are a lot of desperate drivers out there. ATL is slow right now and there are drivers waiting 30 minutes for a 3 dollar fare


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## Uberselectguy (Oct 16, 2015)

Huberis said:


> As far as the tipping issue goes, I personally feel, it is an overblown issue and a side effect of much greater concerns. The representation and attempt to control the tipping culture is critical to the drivers for the reason that so much is very broken and in need of reform.
> 
> The issue of tipping by my estimation is such a sore spot has much to do with Uber's ability to charge rates below what is competitive, it also exemplifies a kind of intrusive posture that Uber often imposes between driver and pax.
> 
> ...


For the drivers to go on and on to ad nauseam about tips is counter productive in at least two important areas.

First, the general public is neutral to adverse to tipping. It's been well documented that tipping is more resented than higher prices. Drivers complain about tipping is only leading to the publics support of Ubers non tip culture. Drivers are in a sense demonizing themselves.

Second, the IRS has established a percentage of base income for those professions that routinely get tips. For every dollar they earn, the IRS concludes 8% is tip income. Basically tips in general make up a small percentage of esrnings. The drivers fight is not tips, rather they should focus on lower commissions taken by uber and a re-evaluation of the ratings system.

Stop walking over dollars to pick up pennies.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

JimS said:


> True. I rephrase to "fares". I did a small spot check of several cities rates between 5/20/15 and today using the fare chart in this forum under "Resources" above. Not enough time to compile all cities, though I may trudge through them eventually, I have found that the majority of the cities didn't change anything more than the Safe Rider Fee. However, many cities rates did drop while others slightly increased. Here's some of the results. But first the assumptions. Take away is based on a 5-mile, 7.5 minute trip (average 40 MPH). Most drivers didn't see a change to their earnings, though Uber kept more of what the customer charged.
> 
> For instance, a typical city would be the first one on the alphabetical list, Akron, OH. Whereas the fares haven't changed, the net effect of the SRF increase from $1 to $1.85 is that the driver keeps 69% of the fare rather than 73%. This is the average shift across all 25 cities in my sampling. Atlanta saw a slight increase as did Los Angeles. Many markets saw a sharp decrease in fares and an increase of Uber's take. Let's look at Florida's Central Atlantic Coast for example. The aforementioned example would cost a rider $13.50 in May where the driver received $10, or 74%. Today, that ride costs the rider $9.93, the driver keeps $6.70, or 69%. That's a $3.30 drop in revenue for the same work. If you can turn 4 5-mile trips an hour, that's a take home decrease of $13.20 per hour.
> 
> ...


I believe what you are seeing is a conscious effort on the part of Uber. They terrace the screwing. It makes for more stability and creates dissent amongst drivers. Drivers from different towns are never quite on the same page and within any one town, they come and go.

Good work.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

UberBlackPr1nce said:


> sounds nice but there are a lot of desperate drivers out there. ATL is slow right now there are driver waiting 30 minutes for are 3 dollar fair.


Where I'm at I can wait 2 to 3 hours for a ping sometimes!


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

Bob Reynolds said:


> it is impossible for a Uber driver to drive more than 1.4 trips per hour.


1.4 calls n hour is rather poor. If Uber owned the cars,that number would not be acceptable. I fully understand how convenient Uber is for pax. That drivers own the cars and not Uber allows them to squander their resources in favor of convenience. Pax are booking idle cars. Under Ubers system, they favor convenience and try to eliminate uncertainty. Uncertainty is a huge problem in the taxi industry whereby calls are queued one behind the other. Delays, change of destination, all sort of problems can occur.

Uber doesn't own the cars and isn't forced to recognize the fact the the cars cost drivers money. There is a disconnect. It allows for a town to be flooded with cars. If real dispatching were in place, some form of it at least, it should easily be possible to do more than 1.4 calls an hour. That figure doesn't even mean that much without any kind of associated context.

1.4 calls/hour seems low.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

Bob Reynolds said:


> Uber's own study concluded that Uber driver's drive 1.4 trips per hour. There is no way for a driver to increase the number of trips per hour because there are still only 60 minutes in an hour.
> 
> So dropping the rate might attract more riders for Uber, but it is impossible for a Uber driver to drive more than 1.4 trips per hour.
> 
> Therefore the only result that can happen is that drivers are getting paid less to drive those 1.4 trips per hour.


One way to put the number into perspective is comparing it to what percentage of total miles are paid miles. That would be more helpful.

Have you ever noticed how many Uber drivers are very quick to turn down an out of town run at 1x? That is a sure sign that rates are too low. As a driver, I hope for my paid mile to be 55-60% of my total odometer reading. On a really good night, that could be a touch higher. If I do one long call for say a ten hour trip, I pretty much guarantee my ratio of paid mile to unpaid miles is going to be on the low end for the day, 50% unless I have time to run more. The catch however is that the actual number of paid miles is going to be very high.

In Uberland, unless the rates are at some kind of a surge, it doesn't pay to do the trip. That is true and that is a reflection of something being deeply broken. The fact is that if you stay in town, you should have a higher percentage of paid miles, but Uber clearly is not running you with your efficiency in mind. That needs to made clear to Uber. That is something which needs to be acknowledged and shown to be understood. People need to be expected to pay for that convenience. There is no magic in that app, al the magic comes from the ability to divorce the industry from recognized costs, sweep 'em under the rug.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Huberis said:


> 1.4 calls n hour is rather poor. If Uber owned the cars,that number would not be acceptable. I fully understand how convenient Uber is for pax. That drivers own the cars and not Uber allows them to squander their resources in favor of convenience. Pax are booking idle cars. Under Ubers system, they favor convenience and try to eliminate uncertainty. Uncertainty is a huge problem in the taxi industry whereby calls are queued one behind the other. Delays, change of destination, all sort of problems can occur.
> 
> Uber doesn't own the cars and isn't forced to recognize the fact the the cars cost drivers money. There is a disconnect. It allows for a town to be flooded with cars. If real dispatching were in place, some form of it at least, it should easily be possible to do more than 1.4 calls an hour. That figure doesn't even mean that much without any kind of associated context.
> 
> 1.4 calls/hour seems low.


What this really means is that a Uber driver has an average of about 42 minutes tied up in each call. That would be the amount of time waiting for the call, accepting the call, driving to the call, waiting for the rider, loading the rider(s), loading GPS if the address is not already loaded, driving the rider(s) to their destination(s), dropping the rider(s) off at one or more locations, clearing the call and putting the app back in service to be ready for the next call.

Since all of this takes 42 minutes, and there are only 60 minutes in an hour then it is not possible to average 2 calls an hour on an 8 hour shift or on a 40 hour work week.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

Bob Reynolds said:


> What this really means is that a Uber driver has an average of about 42 minutes tied up in each call. That would be the amount of time waiting for the call, accepting the call, driving to the call, waiting for the rider, loading the rider(s), loading GPS if the address is not already loaded, driving the rider(s) to their destination(s), dropping the rider(s) off at one or more locations, clearing the call and putting the app back in service to be ready for the next call.
> 
> Since all of this takes 42 minutes, and there are only 60 minutes in an hour then it is not possible to average 2 calls an hour on an 8 hour shift or on a 40 hour work week.


That may be the case, if that is in fact true, it belies te notion of Uber as a miracle of technology. There is zero reason to suggest a typical call needs to take so much time to complete. That being said, "clearing the call and putting the app back in service to be ready for the next call." is by choice and a luxury afforded to the pax. It provides great convenience for pax by removing much uncertainty, by as the nature of this discussion we are having, it is anything but efficient for the driver.

That 42 minute time to completion is by choice and not necessity. You the driver pay for that. Uber does not pay for it, and only sometimes via surge pricing does the pax ever come close to paying for it.

One reason for the long drive times is that you are always going to have cars dropping pax on top of people who booked then idle Uber cars while the loaded driver was en route. If a dispatcher send a car to pick up where another car is about to drop, the cars are said to be cross dispatched. It seems obvious to me that is likely to happen. That is by choice and at the convenience of the pax. It costs you the driver time and energy. Such protocol on Uber's part doesn't even guarantee the pax get a car any quicker, the protocol reduces the possibility for surprises.

When you suggest, :"What it really means..." That is by choice. It does not need to be that way. Given the nature of the app, it seems sill for instance that drivers are expected to wait five minute for pax to arrive toes on curb, and they aren't even allowed to start the meter/trip without creating problems for themselves. The slow completion and turn around time is needed to placate passengers need for convenience. 42 minutes a call is flat out slow, it may be what is needed to keep pax happy, but then they should be expected to pay for it all the time.

If 42 minutes is the average turn around time, your time and energy is not being used efficiently. From your perspective and as owner operators, that needs to be made clear. If Uber is going to subordinate efficiency for passenger convenience, that is completely fine, but it needs to be expressed very clearly as to what is going on. For so long now Uber has tried to paint some kind of picture their technology, their app is some kind of magic wand of efficiency. That is a crock of shit. Uber can afford to squander your time, and they aren't concerned about maintaining your car or paying it off. That is what the 42 minutes suggests to me. That is the result of choice.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Everyone always thinks things can be done quicker than they really are. All of the Uber operations take time. This is not a fast food drive through. (and you know how long those take!) 

Sometimes you arrive at a large hotel and have to wait 10 minutes (or more) just to get through the passenger pick up lanes. The 5 minute wait then turns into a 15-20 minute wait while you are stuck in line. Sometimes you arrive at a motel and the passengers are still in their room and you have to find them. That can take 10 minutes or more since you usually do not have the room number. 

And this does not include the traffic that you had to drive to in order to get to the pick up location in the first place. So, in my experience the 42 minutes per call average seems about right. You also need to average this over an 8 hour shift. That would give you 11.42 rides per 8 hour shift. And that is pretty darn close.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

Bob Reynolds said:


> Everyone always thinks things can be done quicker than they really are. All of the Uber operations take time. This is not a fast food drive through. (and you know how long those take!)
> 
> Sometimes you arrive at a large hotel and have to wait 10 minutes (or more) just to get through the passenger pick up lanes. The 5 minute wait then turns into a 15-20 minute wait while you are stuck in line. Sometimes you arrive at a motel and the passengers are still in their room and you have to find them. That can take 10 minutes or more since you usually do not have the room number.
> 
> And this does not include the traffic that you had to drive to in order to get to the pick up location in the first place. So, in my experience the 42 minutes per call average seems about right. You also need to average this over an 8 hour shift. That would give you 11.42 rides per 8 hour shift. And that is pretty darn close.


I have been driving for over 16 years and have done more than 80,000 rides if you figure 5,000 to 6,000 a year. If I average below two calls a night I have had a horrible evening unless I went out of town. On a good night, I should be at three calls an hour or slightly higher.

"Sometimes you arrive at a motel and the passengers are still in their room and you have to find them. That can take 10 minutes or more since you usually do not have the room number." That is bonkers. It doesn't take me that long to get people into my car at a hotel and I don't have the benefit of a fancy app. Your pax are able to see you coming via their phone. Given the way Uber works, you really aren't able to start the meter until they arrive and prove ok to travel.

Why on earth would you wait ten minutes when all you need to do as an Uber driver is wait five and then call it a no show and collect five bucks??? If you are waiting ten minutes or more for pax at hotels, that is once again by choice and not expected of you by even Uber. You are training your pax at that point to encourage you to hurry up and wait.

Sounds like a bad deal to me. You might want to review the your personal wait policy. Given that the pax can see your progress with minimal lag, on their phones, you should be able to charge for that time. That said, you are giving them way too much time in my opinion, a savvy driver keeps his car moving.

I should say...... If the process needs to be that slow, drivers need to express the consequences of that to Uber and the base rates need to reflect that. That is slow. Ten minutes or more for pax to come down who can see where you are on their phone - that is a joke.


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## Bob Reynolds (Dec 20, 2014)

Huberis said:


> I have been driving for over 16 years and have done more than 80,000 rides if you figure 5,000 to 6,000 a year. If I average below two calls a night I have had a horrible evening unless I went out of town. On a good night, I should be at three calls an hour or slightly higher.
> 
> "Sometimes you arrive at a motel and the passengers are still in their room and you have to find them. That can take 10 minutes or more since you usually do not have the room number." That is bonkers. It doesn't take me that long to get people into my car at a hotel and I don't have the benefit of a fancy app. Your pax are able to see you coming via their phone. Given the way Uber works, you really aren't able to start the meter until they arrive and prove ok to travel.
> 
> ...


There is no question that a street hail cab in NYC or large metro area is going to do more rides per hour than a Uber. A street hail cab could drop a rider and pick up a rider without moving the cab. A Uber can not usually do that. So a street hail cab is always going to be able to produce more rides per hour than a Uber.

I do agree some of these Uber and Lyft riders are clueless. They can see us arriving on the app and they should be ready and waiting to get into the car. Most are usually not where the app told us to go. Sometimes someone from the "group" is missing. Uber does not allow us to charge for wait time. If they would let us charge $1 a minute after the first minute we arrive, this problem would solve itself.


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

Bob Reynolds said:


> There is no question that a street hail cab in NYC or large metro area is going to do more rides per hour than a Uber. A street hail cab could drop a rider and pick up a rider without moving the cab. A Uber can not usually do that. So a street hail cab is always going to be able to produce more rides per hour than a Uber.
> 
> I do agree some of these Uber and Lyft riders are clueless. They can see us arriving on the app and they should be ready and waiting to get into the car. Most are usually not where the app told us to go. Sometimes someone from the "group" is missing. Uber does not allow us to charge for wait time. If they would let us charge $1 a minute after the first minute we arrive, this problem would solve itself.


Uber has divorced itself from the cost of operating the actual TNC vehicle. When they set rates or policy, they then ignore any and all costs. They also ignore any kind of suggestion that they are not using their cars efficiently.

If you look at the base rate Uber charges pax in mature markets, the cars and drivers are not operating even remotely efficiently relative to the base fare. It is that simple.

As for number of calls per hour. I live in a small town with a big college. There are some hours a may average two calls an hour and be lucky to do so with traffic, and then later, when the town has emptied out, I may be able to do four calls an hour with all of them dispatched. Generally speaking, we are given lineups which provide us with calls close by. Sometimes pax are given the nearest available car, but if a car is dropping on top of a call, they will defer to that car, even if it means the pax waits a couple extra minutes. In the long run, it all comes out in the wash. The ability to grab street hails does improve my ability to run more calls, but personally, during the hours when street hails are plentiful, I still prefer to work with my dispatcher.

Cheers, good luck with your endeavor.


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## [email protected] (Dec 4, 2015)

Same in Chicago, they lowered the requirement from 2005 to 2000 year cars. I warned riders to be weary of the car that is advertised to pick them up, and if they have second thoughts to cancel the hail quickly and wait till a better car is available in the area.


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## Jack Marrero (Oct 24, 2015)

Einstein said:


> You're an optimist. I would ask the opposite question - how will uber react when the economy goes into the tank? How will their actions affect the drivers?
> Just watch the pricing.


What's going to happen if gas prices return to $4 a gallon?. That might take half of the drivers off the streets. Will Uber raise their fare proportionally to compensate?. We'll see.


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## Matt Uterak (Jul 28, 2015)

Jack Marrero said:


> What's going to happen is gas prices return to $4 a gallon?. That might take half of the drivers off the streets. Will Uber raise their fare proportionally to compensate?. We'll see.


I will essentially stop driving when gasoline hits $2.50/gallon. I will keep a trip here and there to stay active in the system.


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## North End Eric (Sep 12, 2015)

Huberis said:


> Uber has divorced itself from the cost of operating the actual TNC vehicle. When they set rates or policy, they then ignore any and all costs. They also ignore any kind of suggestion that they are not using their cars efficiently.
> 
> If you look at the base rate Uber charges pax in mature markets, the cars and drivers are not operating even remotely efficiently relative to the base fare. It is that simple.
> 
> ...


There is no substitute for a competent dispatcher properly routing cabs. Being worked efficiently can contribute greatly to your income and Uber's app simply does not do that. As a matter of fact is does exactly what a dispatcher tries not to do.


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## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

Matt Uterak said:


> I will essentially stop driving when gasoline hits $2.50/gallon. I will keep a trip here and there to stay active in the system.


Shit. We didn't get down to $2.50 in San Diego.


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## Matt Uterak (Jul 28, 2015)

RockinEZ said:


> Shit. We didn't get down to $2.50 in San Diego.


Gasoline has been around $1.75 a gallon for more than a month in the Mile High city.


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## Uberon1986 (Apr 14, 2016)

Bob Reynolds said:


> *Uber may not be as invincible as it seems. Investors may going to stop funding this dog and pony show until this problem is fixed.*
> 
> Here is a journalist that pretty much has Uber figured out:
> 
> http://observer.com/2015/11/how-uber-drivers-could-trip-up-ceo-travis-kalanick


Nice find it's obvious Uber screwed a whole lot of people


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## shiftydrake (Dec 12, 2015)

Uberon1986 said:


> Nice find it's obvious Uber screwed a whole lot of people


Did you EVEN look at the date on the last message BEFORE you responded......1 year and almost 1 month......wonder if someone will respond...hell they probably don't drive anymore.....please look at date before resurrecting a dead thread


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## Uberon1986 (Apr 14, 2016)

lol I did see the date I like resurrecting old threads


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## AuxCordBoston (Dec 3, 2016)

Uberon1986 said:


> lol I did see the date I like resurrecting old threads


Me too!


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## AuxCordBoston (Dec 3, 2016)

Uber rules! !


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## shiftydrake (Dec 12, 2015)

AuxCordBoston said:


> Uber rules! !


Oh my gawd!!!!! That is so 2015


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

Jack Marrero said:


> What's going to happen if gas prices return to $4 a gallon?. That might take half of the drivers off the streets. Will Uber raise their fare proportionally to compensate?. We'll see.


über will raise its rates if they have too much difficulty getting sufficient numbers of drivers at the current rates.

The price of gasoline is irrelevant to Uber as it isn't one of their expenses.

I'd expect Uber to try and crank up the number of ads on TV and radio to recruit more drivers before doing something drastic like raising fares.


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## Fubernuber (Jan 15, 2017)

Uber says quality of their drivers and service is a top priority. If drivers know they will get no tip then what incentive do they have to provide better than just average service? Even uber black drivers in nyc had enough. They stopped cleaning their cars stopped carrying water and generally stopped giving a dime. How does uber react? It delists drivers who fall below 4.8 stars and opens the black option to new drivers. The end result? There are more uber black drivers than before and not enough in suburbs. There are many more escalades and syburbans now showing up as an XL. This company is very smart while absolutely evil. One day they will get sued into oblivion by both drivers and riders


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