# Upfront fares/trip radar expanding to more markets



## Uberisfuninlv (Mar 22, 2017)

Found the information courtesy of the rideshare guy









Uber Upfront Pricing Makes a Move Into New Markets


There are big changes coming to drivers in many major markets starting today, including the ability to see earnings + drop-off destination for every ride, rate rebalancing, and more. Which...




therideshareguy.com


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## Emptynesst (6 mo ago)

Won’t be a good thing for drivers


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## ObeyTheNumbers (8 mo ago)

I'm scared. 😨

Guess it's time to break out the spreadsheet and beat Uber at its own game.


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## jtk131604 (Apr 12, 2017)

Now it will really start sucking for ALL drivers. Make yer money now while you can, for those of you without upfront pricing currently. It was just a matter of time.


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## ObeyTheNumbers (8 mo ago)

Guess the first thing to do is add the (miles to pax) to the (miles the pax is going to take.)

Then divide the pay by the total miles to get a per mile pay, which if it's what the driver will accept or better.

Because if one simply goes by time to pax doesn't mean Uber isn't paying the driver a long distance fee and including it into the pay.

Drivers have a fixed cost per mile to operate, so they need to meet or exceed that in the pay.

So I think the simplest thing to do is have a chart. So the driver can quickly add up the miles and look on the chart to the corresponding MINIMAL amount they would accept for the trip based upon their per mile costs.

Anything below that amount is a loss, above a profit.

Also the driver can determine if it's a loss trip and a deadhead run otherwise, to go ahead and take it anything is better than nothing.

So I will begin....👑


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## Mad_Jack_Flint (Nov 19, 2020)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> Guess the first thing to do is add the (miles to pax) to the (miles the pax is going to take.)
> 
> Then divide the pay by the total miles to get a per mile pay, which if it's what the driver will accept or better.
> 
> ...


I have had upfront pricing for awhile now and I just reject the ones not worthy of my time…

Make it easier and lowers the cancellation rate…


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## ObeyTheNumbers (8 mo ago)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> I have had upfront pricing for awhile now and I just reject the ones not worthy of my time…
> 
> Make it easier and lowers the cancellation rate…


How do you determine which fares are not worthy of your time?

Obviously picking up at a ritzy resort or an address you've known to be good tippers is a good place, while avoiding the ghetto trips which your likely to get robbed.😁

But aside from those, what trips mathematically do you avoid taking?

Obviously long trips with near zero chance of a return trip is one, that would be the cutoff point on the chart.


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## jtk131604 (Apr 12, 2017)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> Guess the first thing to do is add the (miles to pax) to the (miles the pax is going to take.)
> 
> Then divide the pay by the total miles to get a per mile pay, which if it's what the driver will accept or better.
> 
> ...


“Drivers have a fixed cost per mile to operate, so they need to meet or exceed that in the pay.”

Are you saying that Uber needs to meet or exceed, as in, it always does meet or exceed, with the upfront pricing? Or are you saying that, when drivers do the quick 5 second calculations in their heads, it needs to meet or exceed. Sorry, just clarifying.

Before I stopped driving, I sure did get a LOT of rides that seemed WAY below the normal 60 cents per mile/12 cents a minute, here in Houston. I don’t remember if I actually ever thoroughly broke it down tbh. I just know that when I did my quick calculations, some of the upfront offers were stunningly ridiculous. 50 miles for 70 minutes, offering $25. Horrible rates like that. If I didn’t have so many pics on my damn phone I’d try to hunt them down. I don’t know. Maybe I totally remember some of those low ones incorrectly.


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## ObeyTheNumbers (8 mo ago)

jtk131604 said:


> “Drivers have a fixed cost per mile to operate, so they need to meet or exceed that in the pay.”
> 
> ..when drivers do the quick 5 second calculations in their heads, it needs to meet or exceed.


That one.

The thing is if Uber starts or is paying LESS than a driver needs to receive to cover their per mile costs to operate, obviously, (unless they are already headed in that direction) it's not worth doing the trip.

So how is one to be able to determine this in the meter few seconds Uber gives to accept or deny the trip?

This is why I think a chart or asking Siri or Google on another phone will assist.

"Hey Google, add 10 to 100 and multiply by 72." (My costs to operate are 72 cents a mile). Equals 7210 or $72 in costs.


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## ObeyTheNumbers (8 mo ago)

You see Uber just rolled out Reserve in my area and giving me requests that are 40 minutes to 2.5 hours away, not paying me squat to go get them. Logged me out for declining 5 of them in a row.

If we get upfront pricing, it's going to be more of the same abuse and I have no idea if it's profitable or not unless I divide the pay by the total miles and quickly.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

I'm still showing a ton of surges on my map 
does that mean that arent trying it here yet?


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## jtk131604 (Apr 12, 2017)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> You see Uber just rolled out Reserve in my area and giving me requests that are 40 minutes to 2.5 hours away, not paying me squat to go get them. Logged me out for declining 5 of them in a row.
> 
> If we get upfront pricing, it's going to be more of the same abuse and I have no idea if it's profitable or not unless I divide the pay by the total miles and quickly.


I got logged out constantly for that in those last few months before quitting, when upfront pricing was in full effect, and it is one of the main reasons if not the sole reason that I finally said enough is enough. Then the gas prices rose shortly after and I knew for sure that it wasn’t economically viable here in Houston any longer. And it kinda sucked to begin with, tbh. Especially when compared to some of the numbers I’ve seen here in other major cities. Sure, cost of living may be more in other cities, but Houston is by far no longer one of those cheaper cities to live in. Things are getting plenty expensive here. Driving for both Uber and Lyft simple became a real fkn grind and pain in the ass, and for chump change at that. F’em both.


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## Mad_Jack_Flint (Nov 19, 2020)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> How do you determine which fares are not worthy of your time?
> 
> Obviously picking up at a ritzy resort or an address you've known to be good tippers is a good place, while avoiding the ghetto trips which your likely to get robbed.😁
> 
> ...


Pay to mileage ratio and you have to factor in the time you will waste on each trip.

For me Airport runs are automatic because once I drop off the client I usually have a ride out.

Automatic no is certain areas like you wrote and it matter not the pay.

You know where the money is at and it is by Hotels that you know will have Airport Rides daily…


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## Uberisfuninlv (Mar 22, 2017)

Uber only giving us 5 seconds makes it easy for the “mathematically challenged” driver to take a fare they would normally not take. Instead of seeing how far you have to drive to pickup, now there’s 2 things you have to track. Of course Uber knows most drivers will likely only look at the second one only and see how far for destination and determine by that.


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## #1husler (Aug 22, 2017)

ObeyTheNumbers said:


> The thing is if Uber starts or is paying LESS than a driver needs to receive to cover their per mile costs to operate, obviously, (unless they are already headed in that direction) it's not worth doing the trip.


Unless, of course, Dara once again reminds you that as per Uber math "making LESS is actually making MORE" [for drivers, not for him, his execs or shareholders], so you should be good to go.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> I'm still showing a ton of surges on my map
> does that mean that arent trying it here yet?


No, because, just like Boost+, surge still exists alongside UP/UF.



Uberisfuninlv said:


> Uber only giving us 5 seconds makes it easy for the “mathematically challenged” driver to take a fare they would normally not take. Instead of seeing how far you have to drive to pickup, now there’s 2 things you have to track. Of course Uber knows most drivers will likely only look at the second one only and see how far for destination and determine by that.


For the next phase, it'll be reduced to 3 seconds, and eventually just a brief flicker.



Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Airport runs


 Sounds like a bad case of diarrhea whilst waiting to board.


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## ANThonyBoreDaneCook (Oct 7, 2019)

I use Trip Radar as entertainment when I'm delivering food. In my market it's usually a $2.50, 8 mile Cheap Filet order from inside of a mall.
You can't park, you'd have to walk 100 yards to the food court to pick it up and it would take the driver forever to get out of the parking lot. All for $2.50?
It would take 40 minutes to complete that shit.

And still, someone takes it and I watch it disappear. 
I guess it could have been paired with a stacked order but still, it amazes me how dumb people are.


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## jtk131604 (Apr 12, 2017)

ANThonyBoreDaneCook said:


> I use Trip Radar as entertainment when I'm delivering food. In my market it's usually a $2.50, 8 mile Cheap Filet order from inside of a mall.
> You can't park, you'd have to walk 100 yards to the food court to pick it up and it would take the driver forever to get out of the parking lot. All for $2.50?
> It would take 40 minutes to complete that shit.
> 
> ...


It depresses me how dumb people are.


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## #1husler (Aug 22, 2017)

jtk131604 said:


> It depresses me how dumb people are.


It enables my money making RS hustle, all these ants get pinned down 40 mins with low-ball Radar jobs to make $2.50, and leave the $5.95 short shorty rides (3 min away pick up, 5 mins drive to drop off) for me to drive toward a $100 quest. Its not depressing, it business.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

I recently received an updated terms notice from Uber, but so far no changes on the app as recent as yesterday July 31st in my California market.

As best I can tell from the article, California is still being spared? Is Prop 22 protecting us?

Interesting that this new pricing scheme advantages shorter trips over longer ones. I would think with gas prices still being high and no one wanting to return empty, it would be the reverse. In fact, some pricing changes that Lyft made in one of my markets a few months ago penalizes short trips.


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## #1husler (Aug 22, 2017)

_Tron_ said:


> Interesting that this new pricing scheme advantages shorter trips over longer ones.


Yes, exactly, in fact ONLY short-shorty rides combined with Quest make financial sense as per this new regime (up front pricing and/or Radar) OR I'm doing further on my own things on destination filter....up front and radar even made surge irrelevant because they are "included" the front price which is offers the same amount to drivers (while Uber pockets the so called surge)...so I ignore surge and instead cherry pick for nearest pick up and shortest drops off (with NO multistops).


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Just watched the video in the linked article. I have to say, the driver does a nice job breaking down the new fare structure, and his reaction to it. Didn't even use a teleprompter! Should go into politics.

His most important point comes near the end of the video when he points out that although with a bit of strategizing he made more money under the new system, Uber is free to perform what I will term FARE CREEP. Just as the US dollar was free to be diluted after Nixon closed the "gold window", up front pricing/fares is not connected to a damned thing. Any driver no realizing what this new scheme portends needs to put his/her thinking cap on.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

_Tron_ said:


> Interesting that this new pricing scheme advantages shorter trips over longer ones. I would think with gas prices still being high and no one wanting to return empty, it would be the reverse.


My observed trends:

Shorter* trips are more RPM (revenue per mile), and the fuel surcharge is partly why
Longer** trips are less RPM (revenue per mile)
Shorter trips are more CPM (cost per mile), due to greater wear per mile and lower MPG
Longer trips are less CPM (cost per mile), due to lower wear per mile and higher MPG 
The difference here is the quantity of wear on transmissions, struts, sway bars, control arms, brakes, tires. Changes in speed and direction increase wear. Continuity of either one or both decreases wear.

An argument can be reasonably made that profitability is pretty damn close regardless of the RPM differences.

* < 10 miles
** > 10 miles

Disclaimer: analysis only applies to gas or hybrid


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Heisenburger said:


> An argument can be reasonably made that profitability is pretty damn close regardless of the RPM differences.
> 
> * < 10 miles
> ** > 10 miles


I was thinking the same, only for CPM.

Non-sequitar, but EVs actually are more efficient on short trips due to regenerative braking.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

_Tron_ said:


> Uber is free to perform what I will term FARE CREEP. Just as the US dollar was free to be diluted after Nixon closed the "gold window", up front pricing/fares is not connected to a damned thing.


At its core, this is a stylized bidding/auction model, both in terms of what customers pay and what drivers are compensated.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

_Tron_ said:


> EVs actually are more efficient on short trips due to regenerative braking.


Edited to include disclaimer.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Heisenburger said:


> At its core, this is a stylized bidding/auction model, both in terms of what customers pay and what drivers are compensated.


Explain please.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

_Tron_ said:


> Explain please.


Sure. Any given trip offer gets distributed either serially (presented to one driver at a time -- trip request overlay) or simultaneously (presented to many drivers at a time -- trip). In both flows, if no acceptance, it's entirely possible to raise the trip's offer amount and resubmit the trip offer again. Repeat as necessary until some preset ceiling/maximum that Uber is willing to pay driver based on what Uber quoted to the customer.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Heisenburger said:


> Sure. Any given trip offer gets distributed either serially (presented to one driver at a time -- trip request overlay) or simultaneously (presented to many drivers at a time -- trip). In both flows, if no acceptance, it's entirely possible to raise the trip's offer amount and resubmit the trip offer again. Repeat as necessary until some preset ceiling/maximum that Uber is willing to pay driver based on what Uber quoted to the customer.


Let's stick with serial offers. How certain are you that Uber will raise the offer if no takers?


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

_Tron_ said:


> Let's stick with serial offers. How certain are you that Uber will raise the offer if no takers?


Highly.

But the questions are:

How many drivers must ignore/decline offer A before triggering offer B?
How much more, percentage or dollars and cents, is offer B?
It's easy for me to imagine this situation:

Present offer 1 to driver A. 10 seconds elapsed. Declined.
Present offer 1 to driver B. 20 seconds elapsed. Declined.
Present offer 2 to driver C. 30 seconds elapsed. Declined.
Present offer 2 to driver D. 39 seconds elapsed. Accepted.
Assumptions:

Each subsequent offer is somewhat higher than the previous one (even if just $0.30), but not *necessarily* a better offer than previous because the time and distance and route to pick-up is going to differ (presumably longer since the name of the game is minimal time to pick-up spot)


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## ANThonyBoreDaneCook (Oct 7, 2019)

#1husler said:


> It enables my money making RS hustle, all these ants get pinned down 40 mins with low-ball Radar jobs to make $2.50, and leave the $5.95 short shorty rides (3 min away pick up, 5 mins drive to drop off) for me to drive toward a $100 quest. Its not depressing, it business.


Right?

I'm thankful for the morons that are willing to jump on the $2.50 grenade so I'm able to selectively find the highly profitable orders.
I keep them in my thoughts daily. Never forget their sacrifice.













_Tron_ said:


> Let's stick with serial offers. How certain are you that Uber will raise the offer if no takers?


I would imagine that they'd have to. The order has to be delivered somehow.


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## jtk131604 (Apr 12, 2017)

#1husler said:


> It enables my money making RS hustle, all these ants get pinned down 40 mins with low-ball Radar jobs to make $2.50, and leave the $5.95 short shorty rides (3 min away pick up, 5 mins drive to drop off) for me to drive toward a $100 quest. Its not depressing, it business.


Oh, well, that part is great, yeah.


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## #1husler (Aug 22, 2017)

Heisenburger said:


> Disclaimer: analysis only applies to gas or hybrid


Or EV.


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## #1husler (Aug 22, 2017)

ANThonyBoreDaneCook said:


> I'm thankful for the morons that are willing to jump on the $2.50 grenade


Keep in mind...that some of these so called "ants" are actually hobby drivers (ie, retirees, etc) who do RS and/or delivery "just for fun"...and are otherwise obvious to how much they "made" vs. their overhead and time taken, because more about getting out of the house and "doing something" or even looking "busy". 

Again, I salute this cadre because they are the sweepers who collect all the garage rides I cant afford to pick up, and allow me to cherry pick those which make financial sense.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

ANThonyBoreDaneCook said:


> I keep them in my thoughts daily. Never forget their sacrifice.


Excellent point. And it reminds me of a practice I've started with the "return to normal" traffic around here this spring and summer: Traffic Jesus. I created Traffic Jesus and pray for easygoing travels as needed. Traffic Jesus (TJ to me cuz we good bros now yo) can only help with traffic and nothing else.


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## Donatello (6 mo ago)

Long trips will not cost less just pay less, Uber is an enabler, I swear... they want drivers to start doing cash rides en masse again, oh well and we ere getting so close to positive net profit and higher revenues as a standard.


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## Donatello (6 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> Shorter* trips are more RPM (revenue per mile), and the fuel surcharge is partly why


Ugh, I guess you donate your time irl?

On paper yes, in reality (something that escapes you) it's a waste of time, even with a few bucks put on top of the short trip, say you made 3 short trips in one hour, at 5 bucks each, they threw you 5 bucks extra per trip, you made 30 in one hour, hell, lets say you made 40, in a 1 hour long trip you can make 50 or more.



Heisenburger said:


> Longer** trips are less RPM (revenue per mile)


If they cut the driver's share, this will only enable cash rides, **** even if they cut the cost for the client and take less, it will still mean cash rides out of spite.



Heisenburger said:


> Shorter trips are more CPM (cost per mile), due to greater wear per mile and lower MPG


Not on hybrid.



Heisenburger said:


> Longer trips are less CPM (cost per mile), due to lower wear per mile and higher MPG


Longer trips dog the shit out of your car, be it tires, bugs/rocks hitting your paint/windshield/Ac condenser? or whatever is near the grill.

I used to put a day in miles what "short trip pick it all ants" used to put in 2-3 days work, about 300-400 miles.


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## Heisenburger (Sep 19, 2016)

Channeling my inner Biff from Back to the Future:



Screwber driver north said:


> Longer trips dog the shit out of your car, be it tires, bugs/rocks hitting your paint/windshield/Ac condenser? or whatever is near the grill.


 Maybe if you tailgate.

Less wear per mile on the following:

Tires
Brakes
Struts
Shocks
Control arms
Sway bars
Transmission
And better MPG!



Screwber driver north said:


> Not on hybrid.


 Hybrid drivetrain and suspension still gets a harder workout.



Screwber driver north said:


> in a 1 hour long trip you can make 50 or more.


Not anymore with UF/UP unless you got a big ass tipper.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Having had upfront pricing with ping info and radar, I hate to admit it but I was doing MUCH better a week after I learned how to use it than I was the week before it started, I mean a lot more, probably $8 an hour better with no corresponding increase in costs. 

First off, radar is CRAP, it is a dangerous distraction that vomits all over the app while you are trying to do anything particularly at busy times. I do my very best to ignore it and keep it from expanding to cover my screen. 
Second, If you know your area reasonably well and recognize the street names then the new pings are awesome. Add miles to PU + miles to trip, add minutes to PU and minutes on trip, see if you are OK with where you are picking up and ending up at the drop off location and compare miles, time and money. Sounds like a lot but if you know your area you can evaluate a ping in 2 or 3 seconds. 

What I've determined is that when it's busy short trips are the way to go. I never end up in the boonies losing out on the bar close surge, never have to ride back a long way empty and when incentives like boost or surge are in play, I would much rather get a $4 boost on a 5 minute trip than a 20 minute one because I can wash, rinse and repeat 3-4 times an hour on the shorties. 

What you will notice after a while is that there is also a hidden surge built into the flat rate. Our minimum is $4.55 with the surcharge. Sometimes a short trip will come in at $4.55 but other times it might come in at some other number like $6.50 even though there is no surge showing on the app. This happens in a seemingly random fashion from ping to ping. If you develop good criteria based on the metrics in my second point, you will identify and jump on these pings. So while you obviously want to be in the higher surge areas, you need to develop a feel for what you can get per mile/minute. It goes without saying that your acceptance rate will not be pro level (I'm at 37% today) so if you care about that then god help you.

Bottom line: I only go out when it's busy (mostly Fri and Sat late night so I can't say how well this works for day time drivers, rural drivers or airport drivers for example but I'm fairly reliably grossing over $40 an hour and hovering around $2 a mile doing a combination of X and XL with a rare delivery thrown in when I'm trying to quest.


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

Disgusted Driver said:


> I'm fairly reliably grossing over $40 an hour and hovering around $2 a mile doing a combination of X and XL


Do the XL and Comfort come in as Upfront Fares too?


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

Uberisfuninlv said:


> Found the information courtesy of the rideshare guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...





_Tron_ said:


> As best I can tell from the article, California is still being spared? Is Prop 22 protecting us?


Looks like California is spared (for now).




25rides7daysaweek said:


> I'm still showing a ton of surges on my map
> does that mean that arent trying it here yet?


Chicago wasn't on the list. Be prepared for an infestation of new ants.


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## Donatello (6 mo ago)

Heisenburger said:


> Maybe if you tailgate.
> 
> Less wear per mile on the following:
> 
> ...


Maybe not tires from what I read in my last post, you have more chance at seeing actual damage sooner than the wear and tear, my AC damaged due to flying rocks, so did my windshield and my paint (I don't tailgate), I'll give you struts and shocks die faster in the city which could mean a faster out of pocket expenses, control arms are a rarity to replace and sway bars get replaced along with strut and control arms



Heisenburger said:


> Hybrid drivetrain and suspension still gets a harder workout.


No, you get better MPG driving in traffic due to the way the battery and gas switch compared to highway.



Heisenburger said:


> Not anymore with UF/UP unless you got a big ass tipper


Uber will not lower ride cost, just payment to the driver, this will cause an influx of cash rides, whether they overcharge the pax or not, all long trips simply stop being picked and get picked inside the airport for cash, that's what happened with short trips before or still does, no idea.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

New2This said:


> Do the XL and Comfort come in as Upfront Fares too?


I don't know about Comfort because my rolling wreck doesn't qualify but XL does. What I've observed is that on X they will goose the upfront fare a little (inconsistently, this is Uber after all) if it's a long PU. On XL there is no consideration for how far away the PU is on the upfront fare.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

New2This said:


> Looks like California is spared (for now).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Paula erroneously used the term "Upfront Pricing" to describe California's December 2019 rollout of showing drivers full trip info.

She's also in error when she said that Upfront Fares/Radar (UF) is "very similar" to what CA drivers had in 2020. That's false. UF is a sorry excuse of a substitute for the full trip info CA drivers had in 2020.

The 2020 California full trip info INCREASED driver pay, UF LOWERS driver pay.


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