# Pretty Sure I Cracked Uber + Lyft's Algorithm (The Reason for Reduced Surge/Prime Time)



## Trump Economics

Hello, Uber and Lyft Payday Loan recipients!

Just a therory, but after reading thousands of articles on both companies (inclusive of 8,000+ combined rides), I'm pretty sure I have their algorithms all figured out.

In the past, I've indicated that Uber and Lyft's Surge/Prime Time pricing was illusory, but I couldn't elaborate. Yes, I was certain of my findings (based on predicatable weekly earnings that never changed), but not every piece of the puzzle was available.

Then, today, like magic...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-19/uber-s-future-may-rely-on-predicting-how-much-you-re-willing-to-pay

My favorite part of the article?

"Uber calculates riders' propensity for paying a higher price for a particular route at a certain time of day. For instance, someone traveling from a wealthy neighborhood to another tony spot might be asked to pay more than another person heading to a poorer part of town, even if demand, traffic and distance are the same."

Hmm, so if Uber is doing this, Lyft is doing it, too.

So what does all of this mean?

After a billion rides (combined), they know where you live, when you'll request a ride to work, what bars you frequent on Friday, and how much you're willing to pay for a ride -- then charge accordingly.

"Well, Drunk-Brian paid $22 for a ride last weekend (and the weekend before that), so he's going to do it again this weekend. He tends to order a ride after having a few too many, so he doesn't care about the price. Charge him 'X' and he'll pay. We know where he works, and we know what his salary probably is. He can afford it. Have you seen what zip code he lives in? Rent is $3,500 minimum."

Once again, they know when you'll request a ride. It's what AI (Artifical Intelligence) and algorithms are all about.

So if they know when people are going to request a ride (and how many drivers are needed), the question is, "How do they get drivers where they need them to be in order for the demand to be met?"

And magic... your screen lights up ORANGE or PINK (based on the platform of your choosing).

For years, Uber and Lyft have been conditioning you (like a mouse to a piece of cheese) to think that different shades of color will earn you more money, when what they were really doing is preparing for the day when their system could collect enough data for their algorithms to act in accordance with demand. And yes, venture capital money was likely used to pay for all of these illusory rides up until now -- hence the losses.

The result?

You routinely end up in a Surge or Prime Time area, but get pinged with a call just outside that area (at a normal rate). *And that's because you're not really in a high demand area, you're just in an area that's predicted to have demand.*

But what about the Surge and Prime Time calls that you do get?

*Fact: If they never gave out higher paying calls (fictitious or not), you'd stop responding to the perception of "high demand" (greater earnings); you'd stop driving to these areas and the system would break down. In other words, all behavior is rewarded, so you continue to do whatever feels good, and what motivates. Orange and Pink motivate, don't they?*

At this point in your Uber or Lyft career, do you really believe demand is outstripping supply? Or do you see dozens of available cars on your block?

In the past, Uber has admitted that those cars are fake. If they were real, the screen would look too cluttered -- like ants, so they have to animate the availability of cars.

But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I live in a city with millions of people (Los Angeles) and 60% of them just stopped using the service (continually) 6 months ago.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Tears? C'mon, your McDonalds is getting cold.

*Want more dirty deets on Lyft? Click on my Trump Economics Avatar and scroll to the Information/About me section of my uberpeople.net page.*


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## Arb Watson

This is just a theory, but let's say the charge 200% prime time to the rider and based on that request give 100% prime time to the driver. What do you say to that?


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## Trump Economics

Arb Watson said:


> This is just a theory, but let's say the charge 200% prime time to the rider and based on that request give 100% prime time to the driver. What do you say to that?


They're already doing that. The point, then, is that the ride was never 200% to begin with.


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## Arb Watson

What do you mean it wasn't at 200%?


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## Trump Economics

As I stated above, the demand -- and concurrent pricing -- was likely artificial.


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## macchiato

What I really want to know is when does the app decide when PT will be applied. 

Case in point, LAX. We always see the tarmac pt well before the pickup zones around the terminals when pax can't request on the tarmac (can't drop pin in the area). So does Lyft start gauging demand on app open? If so do drivers that switch to the pax app also cause demand? Does the app take into account of the phone GPS so if the phone requests from a distant zone, does it not affect the PT algorithm?


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## uberebu

I seen it where they charge it Rider 50 % x and paid me 100% primetime. That was after I turned down a bunch line and bass. Strange that I felt no motivation to email Lyft have been corrected

It really is all just a game that we download in the Play Store. Isn't it?


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## Certain Judgment

Trump Economics said:


> As I stated above, the demand -- and concurrent pricing -- was likely artificial.


I know for a fact Uber's surges are artificial. The lower east side in Milwaukee always lights up at 7:35 to 7:45 AM Monday thru Friday, and at 2:15 to 2:35 AM Friday and Saturday nights. The surge zone blankets the entire downtown area. I have been in the heart of these zones before, and the weekday morning surge especially does not get me any rides.


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## Trump Economics

macchiato said:


> What I really want to know is when does the app decide when PT will be applied.
> 
> Case in point, LAX. We always see the tarmac pt well before the pickup zones around the terminals when pax can't request on the tarmac (can't drop pin in the area). So does Lyft start gauging demand on app open? If so do drivers that switch to the pax app also cause demand? Does the app take into account of the phone GPS so if the phone requests from a distant zone, does it not affect the PT algorithm?


Again, we have to remember that passengers (nor drivers) are causing the demand (therory), and when Lyft or Uber puts demand in areas that are implausible, it's their goof. You're thinking cause and effect. Think cause -- it's all illusory. Lyft, for example, knows how many people need a ride from the airport because they know how many rides they gave to the the airport, so return estimates on any given day would be similar -- there's precedent. Also, arrival information from every airliner is widely available, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was superimposed into the algorithm.



Certain Judgment said:


> I know for a fact Uber's surges are artificial. The lower east side in Milwaukee always lights up at 7:35 to 7:45 AM Monday thru Friday, and at 2:15 to 2:35 AM Friday and Saturday nights. The surge zone blankets the entire downtown area. I have been in the heart of these zones before, and the weekday morning surge especially does not get me any rides.


*And that's because you're not really in a high demand area, you're just in an area that's predicted to have demand. *



uberebu said:


> I seen it where they charge it Rider 50 % x and paid me 100% primetime. That was after I turned down a bunch line and bass. Strange that I felt no motivation to email Lyft have been corrected
> 
> It really is all just a game that we download in the Play Store. Isn't it?


I call it a payday loan, but yea, I guess you could say it is all a game -- one with no winners.


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## eberglar

The surges at McCarran Airport in Las Vegas have nothing to do with real time demand. The airport lights up every morning at around 4 AM. There are no planes landing at 4 AM. The first plane of the day will usually come in after 6, and when it does, the surge is gone. I never stage at the airport and never will but the newbies are all over like white on rice.


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## Markeezee

Trump Economics said:


> Hello, Uber and Lyft Payday Loan recipients!
> 
> Just a therory, but after reading thousands of articles on both companies (inclusive of 8,000+ combined rides), I'm pretty sure I have their algorithms all figured out.
> 
> In the past, I've indicated that Uber and Lyft's Surge/Prime Time pricing was illusory, but I couldn't elaborate. Yes, I was certain of my findings (based on predicatable weekly earnings that never changed), but not every piece of the puzzle was available.
> 
> Then, today, like magic...
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-19/uber-s-future-may-rely-on-predicting-how-much-you-re-willing-to-pay
> 
> My favorite part of the article?
> 
> "Uber calculates riders' propensity for paying a higher price for a particular route at a certain time of day. For instance, someone traveling from a wealthy neighborhood to another tony spot might be asked to pay more than another person heading to a poorer part of town, even if demand, traffic and distance are the same."
> 
> Hmm, so if Uber is doing this, Lyft is doing it, too.
> 
> So what does all of this mean?
> 
> After a billion rides (combined), they know where you live, when you'll request a ride to work, what bars you frequent on Friday, and how much you're willing to pay for a ride -- then charge accordingly.
> 
> "Well, Drunk-Brian paid $22 for a ride last weekend (and the weekend before that), so he's going to do it again this weekend. He tends to order a ride after having a few too many, so he doesn't care about the price. Charge him 'X' and he'll pay. We know where he works, and we know what his salary probably is. He can afford it. Have you seen what zip code he lives in? Rent is $3,500 minimum."
> 
> Once again, they know when you'll request a ride. It's what AI (Artifical Intelligence) and algorithms are all about.
> 
> So if they know when people are going to request a ride (and how many drivers are needed), the question is, "How do they get drivers where they need them to be in order for the demand to be met?"
> 
> And magic... your screen lights up ORANGE or PINK (based on the platform of your choosing).
> 
> For years, Uber and Lyft have been conditioning you (like a mouse to a piece of cheese) to think that different shades of color will earn you more money, when what they were really doing is preparing for the day when their system could collect enough data for their algorithms to act in accordance with demand. And yes, venture capital money was likely used to pay for all of these illusory rides up until now -- hence the losses.
> 
> The result?
> 
> You routinely end up in a Surge or Prime Time area, but get pinged with a call just outside that area (at a normal rate). *And that's because you're not really in a high demand area, you're just in an area that's predicted to have demand.*
> 
> But what about the Surge and Prime Time calls that you do get?
> 
> *Fact: If they never gave out higher paying calls (fictitious or not), you'd stop responding to the perception of "high demand" (greater earnings); you'd stop driving to these areas and the system would break down. In other words, all behavior is rewarded, so you continue to do whatever feels good, and what motivates. Orange and Pink motivate, don't they?*
> 
> At this point in your Uber or Lyft career, do you really believe demand is outstripping supply? Or do you see dozens of available cars on your block?
> 
> In the past, Uber has admitted that those cars are fake. If they were real, the screen would look too cluttered -- like ants, so they have to animate the availability of cars.
> 
> But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I live in a city with millions of people (Los Angeles) and 60% of them just stopped using the service (continually) 6 months ago.
> 
> Thoughts? Suggestions? Tears? C'mon, your McDonalds is getting cold.
> 
> *Want more dirty deets on Lyft? Click on my Trump Economics Avatar and scroll to the Information/About me section of my uberpeople.net page.*


Pretty much the pink/orange squares are "predictive" NOT "descriptive". That is to say that those PT squares don't truly reflect the demand at all at real time but what is "predicted" to be. I live in Fullerton, CA and the downtown area is bright pink in intervals of 12am, 1am, and 2am it is a way to signal unsuspecting drivers to trek the area in the hope of landing a PT ride but truth is it's a way to be there to supply a unknown demand because the PT are not real-time. Lyft just wants to direct you to a particular spot and once the supply exceeds the unknown demand then PT is killed. I've learned NOT to make the trip to a PT area because the PT squares are at times random and premeditated on Lyft's part. Case in point, on my way to Cerritos Mall, I had a ping for 25% PT with a 4.2 rating, I was hesitant to take it but did so anyway and it paid off given it was a longish trip to Ivar Ave in LA at a club. But what striked me was that this place was and has NEVER been a PT area. It's a quiet residential area! My suspicion is that that due to the passenger's low rating Lyft set a particular rate for this person and packaged it as PT to some driver (myself) to entice them to take it. If it was a PT fare that destination would have a pink square around it. At the end, the passenger was pretty amicable and actually gave me a tip at the end. I guess knowing he has a low rating, he tipped me and was at his best behavior the entire trip to hopefully bring his numbers back up. But truth is, I get PT pings no where a square area and likewise, when I am at a PT square dead center, I get a ping outside of the PT zones. So, no, I no longer chase the surge or PTs because it's seems all randomized and manipulated in my opinion. PT is just chum for us fishes and by the time we get there the chum dissolves in the ocean not even grabbing a succulent piece of it.


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## eberglar

I've learned to lend even less credence to a rider's star rating. Were you really hesitant to accept a ping at 25%PT that was only 4 minutes away because of the rider's rating?


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## uberebu

Let's just pretend for a minute that this application that we downloaded in the Play Store is a game. What would be the best way to play to ensure the optimal outcome for everyone?


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## uberebu

Certain Judgment said:


> I know for a fact Uber's surges are artificial. The lower east side in Milwaukee always lights up at 7:35 to 7:45 AM Monday thru Friday, and at 2:15 to 2:35 AM Friday and Saturday nights. The surge zone blankets the entire downtown area. I have been in the heart of these zones before, and the weekday morning surge especially does not get me any rides.


It's actually simpler than that. It does the same thing here in LA too. And guess what. It's when schools start and end. And demand goes up because drivers are taking their kids to school. And those of us left are taking other peoples kids to school...Viola. Supply and Demand 101.

In this example it is a natural surge.


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## MiddleClassedOut

I actually don't think Lyft is all that underhanded with Prime Time. But there are weird quirks in their algorithm that creates "prime time free zones," at least in my city. It would be interesting to get to know another market. You can create Prime Time yourself in a high-request area if there are few cars. Here's how:
1) Find an area that usually has decent demand with < 3 cars.
2) Drop a pin in area where the nearest car has an ETA > 5 minutes.
3) Request 3x and cancel. First request will go to closest car. Second will go to next closest, god knows why. Third will go to some idiot 15 minutes away who accepts to get the guarantee or whatever.

You should have 25% at that spot. You may get it even faster if there's been another request in the meantime in that area. Also you may get PT at the spots where the cars WERE. Additional requests should increment in to 50%, then 100%.

If you can form a Lyft Mafia in your town, you can take advantage of this system.


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## uberebu

MiddleClassedOut said:


> I actually don't think Lyft is all that underhanded with Prime Time. But there are weird quirks in their algorithm that creates "prime time free zones," at least in my city. It would be interesting to get to know another market. You can create Prime Time yourself in a high-request area if there are few cars. Here's how:
> 1) Find an area that usually has decent demand with < 3 cars.
> 2) Drop a pin in area where the nearest car has an ETA > 5 minutes.
> 3) Request 3x and cancel. First request will go to closest car. Second will go to next closest, god knows why. Third will go to some idiot 15 minutes away who accepts to get the guarantee or whatever.
> 
> You should have 25% at that spot. You may get it even faster if there's been another request in the meantime in that area. Also you may get PT at the spots where the cars WERE. Additional requests should increment in to 50%, then 100%.
> 
> If you can form a Lyft Mafia in your town, you can take advantage of this system.


There is an app with just this as a hidden function. Took me a while chasing my own PrimeTime tail before I realized that I was the one creating it...LoL


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## Adieu

That's why they ban out lyft pax accounts for cancellations now


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## Trump Economics

Markeezee said:


> Pretty much the pink/orange squares are "predictive" NOT "descriptive". That is to say that those PT squares don't truly reflect the demand at all at real time but what is "predicted" to be. I live in Fullerton, CA and the downtown area is bright pink in intervals of 12am, 1am, and 2am it is a way to signal unsuspecting drivers to trek the area in the hope of landing a PT ride but truth is it's a way to be there to supply a unknown demand because the PT are not real-time. Lyft just wants to direct you to a particular spot and once the supply exceeds the unknown demand then PT is killed. I've learned NOT to make the trip to a PT area because the PT squares are at times random and premeditated on Lyft's part. Case in point, on my way to Cerritos Mall, I had a ping for 25% PT with a 4.2 rating, I was hesitant to take it but did so anyway and it paid off given it was a longish trip to Ivar Ave in LA at a club. But what striked me was that this place was and has NEVER been a PT area. It's a quiet residential area! My suspicion is that that due to the passenger's low rating Lyft set a particular rate for this person and packaged it as PT to some driver (myself) to entice them to take it. If it was a PT fare that destination would have a pink square around it. At the end, the passenger was pretty amicable and actually gave me a tip at the end. I guess knowing he has a low rating, he tipped me and was at his best behavior the entire trip to hopefully bring his numbers back up. But truth is, I get PT pings no where a square area and likewise, when I am at a PT square dead center, I get a ping outside of the PT zones. So, no, I no longer chase the surge or PTs because it's seems all randomized and manipulated in my opinion. PT is just chum for us fishes and by the time we get there the chum dissolves in the ocean not even grabbing a succulent piece of it.


Agree with everything you just said. I've noticed an influx of Lyft Line calls coming in at 25% now.



eberglar said:


> I've learned to lend even less credence to a rider's star rating. Were you really hesitant to accept a ping at 25%PT that was only 4 minutes away because of the rider's rating?


I'm hesitant because of the 25%. McDonalds is expensive.



uberebu said:


> Let's just pretend for a minute that this application that we downloaded in the Play Store is a game. What would be the best way to play to ensure the optimal outcome for everyone?


Stop. Taking. Calls. That. Aren't. Prime Time. And. Force. Legitimate. Change. What's fictional tends to get thrust into reality when there are no other options. If you show Lyft that you're not willing to drive for less than $1.50, that's what they'll charge.



MiddleClassedOut said:


> I actually don't think Lyft is all that underhanded with Prime Time. But there are weird quirks in their algorithm that creates "prime time free zones," at least in my city. It would be interesting to get to know another market. You can create Prime Time yourself in a high-request area if there are few cars. Here's how:
> 1) Find an area that usually has decent demand with < 3 cars.
> 2) Drop a pin in area where the nearest car has an ETA > 5 minutes.
> 3) Request 3x and cancel. First request will go to closest car. Second will go to next closest, god knows why. Third will go to some idiot 15 minutes away who accepts to get the guarantee or whatever.
> 
> You should have 25% at that spot. You may get it even faster if there's been another request in the meantime in that area. Also you may get PT at the spots where the cars WERE. Additional requests should increment in to 50%, then 100%.
> 
> If you can form a Lyft Mafia in your town, you can take advantage of this system.


Create our own demand? How would their system not detect when a driver is going above and beyond "predictability," in order to create factual Prime Time rates? And would deactivation not be imminent? I mean, they're evil, but not dumb.


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## Adieu

Trump Economics said:


> If you show Lyft that you're not willing to drive for less than $1.50, that's what they'll charge.


Problem: NOT willing to drive for $1.50


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## Trump Economics

Adieu said:


> That's why they ban out lyft pax accounts for cancellations now


Or charge them $5 bucks a pop and you can cancel as much as you want. Easy money.



Adieu said:


> Problem: NOT willing to drive for $1.50


That's because you drive Premier and already make that. But for normal calls, $1.50 to $2.00 would be legit (in my opinion).


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## Adieu

Trump Economics said:


> That's because you drive Premier and already make that. But for normal calls, $1.50 to $2.00 would be legit (in my opinion).


Plus, actually.

Still surge-only.

No PDBs = no base rate no thx


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## DidIDoThat

From what I have seen with Lyft in the south Florida area, the PT map is a reflection of what "has" happened.

I can see the "asking" price for riders, and in monitoring it live, I can say that there are a lot of micro surges that happen all the time that doesn't show on the heat map. However if these micro surges last or the volume reaches a threshold, then the pink starts to show up. The pink appears to go away as time expires on the last rider paying that rate, however just because the pink is gone, it does not mean that they aren't still "asking" for prime from the riders.


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## Lyftguru

Well the algorythms are stupid!
Every other pax says they had their first few request, and they were over 15 minutes away. That's not helping customers,or creating repeat business.
The only reason they do such a thing, is to make drivers take more time, and fit drivers in their algorythm quota.
Each driver has a different algorythm, for instance, trainers have the best algorythms, they get all the high surges and best rides, because they train for less money now. Then its the usual for other drivers , lots of short rides, then as your closer to your bonus, its a lot of long rides. After your bonus you get all line, and short rides, because they don't want any one to get their bonus, those drivers, driving late Sunday night, don't get any short rides, they are all algorythmed to only get far away longer rides. Its not the closest PAX, although they go through cycles, but its also an issue with pdb times, over lapping your 6 hour break. Reaching your pdb now takes so much longer, and some rides are longer rides in traffic, making it 1 ride an hour, or even 1 hour.30 minutes in traffic to the airport, for 15 dollars. All my pdb times are longer rides, and non pdb short rides. All 25%50%100% surges are so short, its really not that great, if anything, but sitting in deep red. I am seeing my hourly rate is pretty much getting less n less.


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## Trump Economics

Adieu said:


> Plus, actually.
> 
> Still surge-only.
> 
> No PDBs = no base rate no thx


And yet, all this time, I envisioned you in a black Audi. I've been waving at the wrong Lyft drivers this entire time.

My face is RED.


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## Trump Economics

Lyftguru said:


> Well the algorythms are stupid!
> Every other pax says they had their first few request, and they were over 15 minutes away. That's not helping customers,or creating repeat business.
> The only reason they do such a thing, is to make drivers take more time, and fit drivers in their algorythm quota.
> Each driver has a different algorythm, for instance, trainers have the best algorythms, they get all the high surges and best rides, because they train for less money now. Then its the usual for other drivers , lots of short rides, then as your closer to your bonus, its a lot of long rides. After your bonus you get all line, and short rides, because they don't want any one to get their bonus, those drivers, driving late Sunday night, don't get any short rides, they are all algorythmed to only get far away longer rides. Its not the closest PAX, although they go through cycles, but its also an issue with pdb times, over lapping your 6 hour break. Reaching your pdb now takes so much longer, and some rides are longer rides in traffic, making it 1 ride an hour, or even 1 hour.30 minutes in traffic to the airport, for 15 dollars. All my pdb times are longer rides, and non pdb short rides. All 25%50%100% surges are so short, its really not that great, if anything, but sitting in deep red. I am seeing my hourly rate is pretty much getting less n less.


Yes. Yes. YES! I totally forgot, everyone does have their own algorithm. I learned that once I started getting the PDB every week. I was like, is my pay ever going to fluctuate, or do they really expect me to believe that Lyft Line has become more popular than the Kardashians?



Adieu said:


> I can see that.
> 
> View attachment 121988
> 
> 
> White Expedition w/ mud tires and black wheels, actually


Touché. Black Prius -- doing 50 in a 40.


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## Atom guy

I stopped chasing surge once I noticed that as I moved closer to the surge zone, the surge zone would fade away, like I was literally chasing it away. Finally figured out that I was adding myself to the pool of drivers into the area and diluting the surge. I have also noticed that when surges do happen on top of me, I only get pings outside the surge zone. I've always assumed it was just passengers waiting out the surge, so the only people making ride requests were outside the surge zone.

Is this article saying that Uber's pricing model is a fiction, and that 2 different people standing on the same street corner at the same time going to the same place will pay different prices for the same ride based on their previous Uber history?


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## Trump Economics

Atom guy said:


> I stopped chasing surge once I noticed that as I moved closer to the surge zone, the surge zone would fade away, like I was literally chasing it away. Finally figured out that I was adding myself to the pool of drivers into the area and diluting the surge. I have also noticed that when surges do happen on top of me, I only get pings outside the surge zone. I've always assumed it was just passengers waiting out the surge, so the only people making ride requests were outside the surge zone.
> 
> Is this article saying that Uber's pricing model is a fiction, and that 2 different people standing on the same street corner at the same time going to the same place will pay different prices for the same ride based on their previous Uber history?


That's correct. They finally admitted it, and I'm confident in my belief that Surge and Prime Time are, in fact, illusory.


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## MiddleClassedOut

Duh, you have to drive offline into surge zones. Otherwise you're just helping kill the surge with your supply.

People in my area are getting smarter, drivers have some idea when the PT will appear and wait offline for it. Then suddenly there are 4 cars there...

Use another device to make sure you are the closest car to the probable location of the requests. It works fine for me. If I'm closest car, I'll probably get the request if there is one.

Stop complaining and try doing everything possible to maximize profits.


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## Veju

I came for math and stats but all I got was Alex jones.


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## Trump Economics

MiddleClassedOut said:


> Duh, you have to drive offline into surge zones. Otherwise you're just helping kill the surge with your supply.
> 
> People in my area are getting smarter, drivers have some idea when the PT will appear and wait offline for it. Then suddenly there are 4 cars there...
> 
> Use another device to make sure you are the closest car to the probable location of the requests. It works fine for me. If I'm closest car, I'll probably get the request if there is one.
> 
> Stop complaining and try doing everything possible to maximize profits.


Again, the thought process is skewed -- it's conditioned. You gotta think outside the pink metaphorical box. Way out. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay out.

What makes you think there isn't a sufficient supply of cars? The ones that you see on your screen AREN'T real, and seeing your own vehicle (on purpose) only maximizes the perception of a reality that does not exist.

Off topic. I once pulled into a gas station and asked another Lyft driver if I could see their map. I just couldn't believe it was that slow. Of course his screen matched mine (proximity to each other). But when I texted my friend for a screen shot of his app -- who was 20 miles away -- different story.

I'm telling you, it's illusory. Prime Time here, Prime Time there.

Log-in, log out.

Spoof your location here, spoof your location everywhere.

I do not like green eggs and ham.

If Lyft wanted to give you twenty calls at 100% PT (back-to-back), they could do it, right? And if they did that, you'd think, "OK, that just happened, so there's a possibility of it happening again." And that's what happened in the beginning. You got suckered into believing anything is possible, which is why you keep driving every week. You keep reaching for everything you think you know.

But it's all a lie (in my opinion). Trying to earn more with tips and tricks is almost comical because it runs under the assumption that Lyft's Payday Loan algorithm is asleep at the switch.

"Uh, oh, Middle Class is at $59 net this hour, while everyone else is at $9. Oh, well, nothing to see here -- all is normal. I'll just keep dispatching."


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## Trump Economics

Veju said:


> I came for math and stats but all I got was Alex jones.


At least you're looking. That gives me hope. It should give us all hope.


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## Loralie

macchiato said:


> What I really want to know is when does the app decide when PT will be applied.
> 
> Case in point, LAX. We always see the tarmac pt well before the pickup zones around the terminals when pax can't request on the tarmac (can't drop pin in the area). So does Lyft start gauging demand on app open? If so do drivers that switch to the pax app also cause demand? Does the app take into account of the phone GPS so if the phone requests from a distant zone, does it not affect the PT algorithm?





Arb Watson said:


> This is just a theory, but let's say the charge 200% prime time to the rider and based on that request give 100% prime time to the driver. What do you say to that?


The only true way to check a primetime on a ride is to have the lyft passenger app on another phone which is what i do. You can check it at the moment the request is coming through. I havent seen much difference but i have noticed some inconsistancies. I do believe uber is worse and falsifying surge areas because when you actually zoom into the screen you see a different number almost everytime. And sometimes the surge disappears too. But your right we would never really know what these companies charge and the best thing to do is ask the passenger and see if the rates match up. If you tell the passenger that they are paying more than the miles and time they wont be happy. Its definetly happened with uber, as the passenger gets charged more than a few dollars over. There is an article about how ubers software charges a longer route in the passenger app. Fare estimates are over estimating the rides and adding on more miles and time than the usual routes that the driver will take. This will be in a class action lawsuit coming up against uber. I do believe lyft could be doing the same thing in the app but uber is for sure doing it. I dont think lyft is faking primetime but as i said the best way is to check with the passenger app at the time and also to ask the passenger what they were quoted. Thats the only way to really know.


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## Charismatic Megafauna

eberglar said:


> The surges at McCarran Airport in Las Vegas have nothing to do with real time demand. The airport lights up every morning at around 4 AM. There are no planes landing at 4 AM. The first plane of the day will usually come in after 6, and when it does, the surge is gone. I never stage at the airport and never will but the newbies are all over like white on rice.


This supports my theory that some surges are actually pre-surges which are meant to mobilize drivers to locations before they are needed to wait for an increased demand.


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## MiddleClassedOut

They are constantly fake on Uber...If you check the passenger app on Lyft, they're real. Before that app NoPrimeTime I used another account to check requests constantly, which is really a ***** to do in 10 seconds, since Lyft never deigned to show us the Prime Time multiplier until like 2 months ago.

Furthermore, Lyft has _hidden_ Prime Time, something that does *not* exist on Uber. And if you know where to look, you can find it, and even be there before the map turns pink...


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## Markeezee

MiddleClassedOut said:


> Furthermore, Lyft has _hidden_ Prime Time, something that does *not* exist on Uber. And if you know where to look, you can find it, and even be there before the map turns pink...


I will concede that Lyft has _hidden _Prime Time. Case in point, I had a 10min ping earlier tonight for a 50% PT in a quiet, _residential area (_screenshot attached) No malls. No plaza. Not a single place in which PT should be triggered for a large demand that needed to be supplied...at all. And yet, I got the ping which is even more strange because I could not imagine why anyone would pass out on 50% PT less than 10min from me (unless I was the _only_ car within a 4-mile radius, which is improbable). Nevertheless, the fare was PT, and the map never turned pink. I think fares like these are "unicorn" PTs in which a passenger is off the wayside from Lyft's area coverage that the passenger has no choice but to pay the higher than usual base rate so that someone further off will be incentivized to answer the ping. In essence, it's just higher charged fare dressed as PT. A blip in the system that never triggers pink in the map.

True and actual PT, for me at least, is somewhere along the lines of larger events and venues where large masses of people actually trigger a particular demand e.g. concerts, sporting events, etc. Or dense populated area i.e. LA, OC, etc. However, I will contend, that some of these _hidden_ PTs cannot always be found, even if you try to find it yourself. If that is the case that we as drivers are going about trying to find these _hidden _PTs, we are no longer Lyft drivers but POKÉMON GO! players driving around looking for that rare Pokémon (PT fare) and hoping to stumble upon it and catch it. At least from my experience MOST if not all of the PT fares I've gotten were NEVER a result of being dead center in the middle of a pink square (and when I did get a ping, it sends me OUTSIDE the pink area to non-PT fares, which most of us here are all too familiar with), but instead a result of hapchance and randomness, being in the right place at the right time (which is an algorithmic mystery for me because I never knew when or where the right place or time was--it was just given to me).


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## Hskrgrlusa

I think you hit the nail on the head!


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## DidIDoThat

I see both Lyft and uber moving away from PT and surge. Uber has already updated their api and their latest version does not provide any surge information, as they plan to move to a flat rate pricing (determind by them at the time of request). Lyft will eventually follow suite. When uber discontinues the older api, a lot of the apps like surge chaser etc. Will stop functioning due to the lack of the multipliers missing in the new api.


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## PrestonT

eberglar said:


> The surges at McCarran Airport in Las Vegas have nothing to do with real time demand. The airport lights up every morning at around 4 AM. There are no planes landing at 4 AM. The first plane of the day will usually come in after 6, and when it does, the surge is gone. I never stage at the airport and never will but the newbies are all over like white on rice.


Yeah I was thinking of contracting with the airport to run a food truck in the lot


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## Markeezee

DidIDoThat said:


> I see both Lyft and uber moving away from PT and surge. Uber has already updated their api and their latest version does not provide any surge information, as they plan to move to a flat rate pricing (determind by them at the time of request). Lyft will eventually follow suite. When uber discontinues the older api, a lot of the apps like surge chaser etc. Will stop functioning due to the lack of the multipliers missing in the new api.


True. So pretty much Uber and Lyft will just be glorified taxis providing on-demand, real-time dispatching with better amenities and choices in cars but for less pay than what taxi drivers make on a per mile basis. Sad thing is that there will be drivers out there (ants) who will work for those pennies on the dollar rates, rationalizing that all they need to do is simply drive more, meaning more hours on-line and more wear and tear on their cars for below minimum wage earnings when it's all tallied up in a spreadsheet.

Personally, Uber and Lyft, but Uber primarily, needs to find a way for an optimal pricing options that satisfies the needs of passengers and pays the drivers a reasonable amount. From where it stands it doesn't make sense for Uber to gauge passengers with upfront pricing with fees and their 25% commissions on top of it when Uber already at the onset of a particular ride inflated the cost because they feel it is the price a passenger is willing to pay. Case in point, last night a passenger told me that Uber was asking to charge her $50 dollars for a 6 mile ride to her work at KFC. All things being equal, Uber's 25% commission would have been $12.50 and the driver gets $37.50 but I'm sure Uber gets more due to fees and whatnot. But who is to say that Uber did upfront pricing where they over-inflate this ride because it is what Uber believes what the passenger is willing to pay and simply pocket the rest, say the ride was actually just a $30 ride compared to $50 with Uber keeping the extra $20. And what is more heinous is that my passenger works KFC! How in the hell can Uber charge that amount to a retail/food service employee for 6 miles to her job making probably a little above minimum wage. The passenger was better off getting a taxi or bus with that kind of asking price. And given she lives in Downey, CA which has a lot of drivers, one can't argue the price being quoted is a result of minimal supply to satisfy the demand. The supply is there! Uber is simply pissing off passengers, hence ridership dwindling the demand side due to price gauging and/or upfront pricing. In short the passenger did not use Uber but Lyft (me) instead to get back home. She paid a reasonable price and I was content with the fare.

Uber is just crumbling bit by bit with Greyball, the new TOS and now, from what I've read, it is found out they owe hundreds (or thousands) of New York drivers money for fare money withheld from them.


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## Strange Fruit

Markeezee said:


> True. So pretty much Uber and Lyft will just be glorified taxis providing on-demand, real-time dispatching with better amenities and choices in cars but for less pay than what taxi drivers make on a per mile basis. Sad thing is that there will be drivers out there (ants) who will work for those pennies on the dollar rates, rationalizing that all they need to do is simply drive more, meaning more hours on-line and more wear and tear on their cars for below minimum wage earnings when it's all tallied up in a spreadsheet.
> 
> Personally, Uber and Lyft, but Uber primarily, needs to find a way for an optimal pricing options that satisfies the needs of passengers and pays the drivers a reasonable amount. From where it stands it doesn't make sense for Uber to gauge passengers with upfront pricing with fees and their 25% commissions on top of it when Uber already at the onset of a particular ride inflated the cost because they feel it is the price a passenger is willing to pay. Case in point, last night a passenger told me that Uber was asking to charge her $50 dollars for a 6 mile ride to her work at KFC. All things being equal, Uber's 25% commission would have been $12.50 and the driver gets $37.50 but I'm sure Uber gets more due to fees and whatnot. But who is to say that Uber did upfront pricing where they over-inflate this ride because it is what Uber believes what the passenger is willing to pay and simply pocket the rest, say the ride was actually just a $30 ride compared to $50 with Uber keeping the extra $20. And what is more heinous is that my passenger works KFC! How in the hell can Uber charge that amount to a retail/food service employee for 6 miles to her job making probably a little above minimum wage. The passenger was better off getting a taxi or bus with that kind of asking price. And given she lives in Downey, CA which has a lot of drivers, one can't argue the price being quoted is a result of minimal supply to satisfy the demand. The supply is there! Uber is simply pissing off passengers, hence ridership dwindling the demand side due to price gauging and/or upfront pricing. In short the passenger did not use Uber but Lyft (me) instead to get back home. She paid a reasonable price and I was content with the fare.
> 
> Uber is just crumbling bit by bit with Greyball, the new TOS and now, from what I've read, it is found out they owe hundreds (or thousands) of New York drivers money for fare money withheld from them.


They charged her over $8 a mile?! That must have been surged. It wouldn't have even been a $30 ride as that's still $5 per mile, and even in SF that's an extreme price. The up front scheme isn't _that_ inflated. I've asked some riders their fares since upfront began last year, and they're pretty close to what the fare rate plus booking fee would be. One 30 minute ride was within a dollar. 
And in SF, hardly comparable to Downey (where I was born), there are also a lot fo drivers (probably way more than Downey) and it surges here anyways, and you can get rides in that surge. So it is possible that she was surged even tho there are lots of drivers. Way more likely than the up front mark up was that extreme. I know what ur saying is reasonable, and logical, but that doesn't mean it is so.

And I think people can drop the pretense of talking about what Uber keeps. They haven't _kept_ anything for almost a year now. They pay us to drive their customers. Everything becomes much simpler to say when you think that way. Like you can create math to describe the Earth at the center, but it all becomes simpler when you realize the sun is at the center. Uber pays us to drive their customers. The customers don't pay us through Uber, and Uber keeps some of it. I know Uber said that in their contracts since like the beginning, but it hasn't been the reality in a long long time. They pay us to drive their customers. They charge their customers whatever they can. Kind of like a business that sells service to customers. They say "hmm, how much can I get out of this person for this service" and then they try to provide the service as cheaply as possible while maintaining as much quality as they think the customer needs to keep coming back.* They pay us to provide the service to their customers. It seems that forum people still think they are being paid by riders, and that Uber "takes their cut". We aren't. _Uber_ has been paying us to drive _their_ customers. They pay us per mile and minute. They don't get a commission (despite the Uberfiction accounting in yr trip reports that still pretends, but we don't ahve to pretend). They just pay you per minute and mile to drive their customers. And sometimes they pay you as much or _more_ than they charged the customer, with boosts (and no one ever says that _that_ is not fair). That wouldn't be possible if we were strictly paid by the customer and Uber kept a commission.

*I don't condone or condemn this, I'm just saying that's what happens. If they charge someone $50 to go 6 miles, they charge them $50. Why would they want to give any more of it to us. It has nothing to do with the driver. Any more than the price of a cup of coffee going up at Starbucks affects the person serving the coffee. Did you ask their servers if they got a raise when Starbucks raised the price last year? Did you? Were you worried about it? Do you think Uber customers care if you got a raise when they pay more, or do they just care about getting where they want to go without too much unpleasantness. (I'm embarrassed to say I go to Starbucks, but I'm an addict an they're open late, and they're everywhere, and the coffee is always hot. I'm sorry world. They win. And I bring my own cup, and every once in a while the server will just charge the refill price of 50cents, and I feel like it's a tiny lottery win. It requires less buttons so I don't see why they don't all do it every time. But otherwise they'll often put too much effort into figuring out what size the cup is, like it matters that much when they could just charge for the smallest size, 12oz, and be done, but they really squint and look at the bottom, and want to do right by their master and not give up the extra quarter while not _over_charging. But now I specifically ask for a 12 oz coffee, in my 16oz cup, and they don't even question it. People are weird animals.)


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## TedInTampa

Strange Fruit said:


> Uber pays us to drive their customers. The customers don't pay us through Uber, and Uber keeps some of it. I know Uber said that in their contracts since like the beginning, but it hasn't been the reality in a long long time. They pay us to drive their customers. They charge their customers whatever they can. Kind of like a business that sells service to customers. They say "hmm, how much can I get out of this person for this service" and then they try to provide the service as cheaply as possible while maintaining as much quality as they think the customer needs to keep coming back.* They pay us to provide the service to their customers. It seems that forum people still think they are being paid by riders, and that Uber "takes their cut". We aren't. _Uber_ has been paying us to drive _their_ customers. They pay us per mile and minute. They don't get a commission (despite the Uberfiction accounting in yr trip reports that still pretends, but we don't ahve to pretend). They just pay you per minute and mile to drive their customers.


I agree. However, we should not then have a 1099, we should have benefits and other employee protections.


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## Trump Economics

MiddleClassedOut said:


> They are constantly fake on Uber...If you check the passenger app on Lyft, they're real. Before that app NoPrimeTime I used another account to check requests constantly, which is really a ***** to do in 10 seconds, since Lyft never deigned to show us the Prime Time multiplier until like 2 months ago.
> 
> Furthermore, Lyft has _hidden_ Prime Time, something that does *not* exist on Uber. And if you know where to look, you can find it, and even be there before the map turns pink...


Hidden Prime Time? Why do I feel like I'm in a video game, and the title is called "Twilight ZONES?"



Markeezee said:


> I will concede that Lyft has _hidden _Prime Time. Case in point, I had a 10min ping earlier tonight for a 50% PT in a quiet, _residential area (_screenshot attached) No malls. No plaza. Not a single place in which PT should be triggered for a large demand that needed to be supplied...at all. And yet, I got the ping which is even more strange because I could not imagine why anyone would pass out on 50% PT less than 10min from me (unless I was the _only_ car within a 4-mile radius, which is improbable). Nevertheless, the fare was PT, and the map never turned pink. I think fares like these are "unicorn" PTs in which a passenger is off the wayside from Lyft's area coverage that the passenger has no choice but to pay the higher than usual base rate so that someone further off will be incentivized to answer the ping. In essence, it's just higher charged fare dressed as PT. A blip in the system that never triggers pink in the map.
> 
> True and actual PT, for me at least, is somewhere along the lines of larger events and venues where large masses of people actually trigger a particular demand e.g. concerts, sporting events, etc. Or dense populated area i.e. LA, OC, etc. However, I will contend, that some of these _hidden_ PTs cannot always be found, even if you try to find it yourself. If that is the case that we as drivers are going about trying to find these _hidden _PTs, we are no longer Lyft drivers but POKÉMON GO! players driving around looking for that rare Pokémon (PT fare) and hoping to stumble upon it and catch it. At least from my experience MOST if not all of the PT fares I've gotten were NEVER a result of being dead center in the middle of a pink square (and when I did get a ping, it sends me OUTSIDE the pink area to non-PT fares, which most of us here are all too familiar with), but instead a result of hapchance and randomness, being in the right place at the right time (which is an algorithmic mystery for me because I never knew when or where the right place or time was--it was just given to me).


I don't believe "hidden Prime Time" exists, but I do believe the price is multiplied when a call is repeatedly passed up.

The system goes, this area has zero demand, and two drivers have already passed up Jessica's call. We're gonna throw it back out at 50%, etc. and see if we can get a driver. And while the passenger might only be charged a normal rate -- while Lyft pays you a higher rate that reduces their commission, it's no different than the 2016 PDB (RIP).


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## Loralie

Strange Fruit said:


> They charged her over $8 a mile?! That must have been surged. It wouldn't have even been a $30 ride as that's still $5 per mile, and even in SF that's an extreme price. The up front scheme isn't _that_ inflated. I've asked some riders their fares since upfront began last year, and they're pretty close to what the fare rate plus booking fee would be. One 30 minute ride was within a dollar.
> And in SF, hardly comparable to Downey (where I was born), there are also a lot fo drivers (probably way more than Downey) and it surges here anyways, and you can get rides in that surge. So it is possible that she was surged even tho there are lots of drivers. Way more likely than the up front mark up was that extreme. I know what ur saying is reasonable, and logical, but that doesn't mean it is so.
> 
> And I think people can drop the pretense of talking about what Uber keeps. They haven't _kept_ anything for almost a year now. They pay us to drive their customers. Everything becomes much simpler to say when you think that way. Like you can create math to describe the Earth at the center, but it all becomes simpler when you realize the sun is at the center. Uber pays us to drive their customers. The customers don't pay us through Uber, and Uber keeps some of it. I know Uber said that in their contracts since like the beginning, but it hasn't been the reality in a long long time. They pay us to drive their customers. They charge their customers whatever they can. Kind of like a business that sells service to customers. They say "hmm, how much can I get out of this person for this service" and then they try to provide the service as cheaply as possible while maintaining as much quality as they think the customer needs to keep coming back.* They pay us to provide the service to their customers. It seems that forum people still think they are being paid by riders, and that Uber "takes their cut". We aren't. _Uber_ has been paying us to drive _their_ customers. They pay us per mile and minute. They don't get a commission (despite the Uberfiction accounting in yr trip reports that still pretends, but we don't ahve to pretend). They just pay you per minute and mile to drive their customers. And sometimes they pay you as much or _more_ than they charged the customer, with boosts (and no one ever says that _that_ is not fair). That wouldn't be possible if we were strictly paid by the customer and Uber kept a commission.
> 
> *I don't condone or condemn this, I'm just saying that's what happens. If they charge someone $50 to go 6 miles, they charge them $50. Why would they want to give any more of it to us. It has nothing to do with the driver. Any more than the price of a cup of coffee going up at Starbucks affects the person serving the coffee. Did you ask their servers if they got a raise when Starbucks raised the price last year? Did you? Were you worried about it? Do you think Uber customers care if you got a raise when they pay more, or do they just care about getting where they want to go without too much unpleasantness. (I'm embarrassed to say I go to Starbucks, but I'm an addict an they're open late, and they're everywhere, and the coffee is always hot. I'm sorry world. They win. And I bring my own cup, and every once in a while the server will just charge the refill price of 50cents, and I feel like it's a tiny lottery win. It requires less buttons so I don't see why they don't all do it every time. But otherwise they'll often put too much effort into figuring out what size the cup is, like it matters that much when they could just charge for the smallest size, 12oz, and be done, but they really squint and look at the bottom, and want to do right by their master and not give up the extra quarter while not _over_charging. But now I specifically ask for a 12 oz coffee, in my 16oz cup, and they don't even question it. People are weird animals.)


They overcharge their customers and then pocket the difference. Its already being filed as a class action lawsuit. Its really shady. They dont pay everyone to take their customers and that shouldnt be any excuse for them to overcharge passengers and not give it to the drivers either. No excuse for this kind of behavior at all. https://qz.com/974892/ubers-upfront...-passengers-on-uberx-and-other-private-rides/



Loralie said:


> They overcharge their customers and then pocket the difference. Its already being filed as a class action lawsuit. Its really shady. They dont pay everyone to take their customers and that shouldnt be any excuse for them to overcharge passengers and not give it to the drivers either. No excuse for this kind of behavior at all. https://qz.com/974892/ubers-upfront...-passengers-on-uberx-and-other-private-rides/


I dont get your logic. They should charge by the time and miles not more or less. What gives them an excuse for this??? I dont want the crappy quest bonus. I lose more money trying to as many shitty rides as possible. I just dont see how you can excuse this company for this and all the other shady stuff they have done amd continue to do.


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## Shane.C

Get a real job. Driving for Uber and Lyft is not a career, and it isn't a "business" either. I realized a few weeks ago that I was driving people around for FREE after all is said and done. I went and found a real job, and that's what you all should do too. It may take some time, but it's really he only answer. Ask yourself, are you going to be able to buy a new car every 2 years at the rates they are paying you? How about a new 700.00 set of tires every 9-12 months? Will Uber and Lyft be there for you when you have an accident and your insurance company turns down your claim and you owe $25,000 for a car that's in the scrap yard? The mark of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. If you continue to ferry people around for these Uber and Lyft for .60 a mile, that's what they will pay you forever. Quit driving and start yourself toward a better, stable life. It doesn't do your soul any good to wake up and allow yourself to be taken advantage of.


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## Trebor

Shane.C said:


> Get a real job. Driving for Uber and Lyft is not a career, and it isn't a "business" either. I realized a few weeks ago that I was driving people around for FREE after all is said and done. I went and found a real job, and that's what you all should do too. It may take some time, but it's really he only answer. Ask yourself, are you going to be able to buy a new car every 2 years at the rates they are paying you? How about a new 700.00 set of tires every 9-12 months? Will Uber and Lyft be there for you when you have an accident and your insurance company turns down your claim and you owe $25,000 for a car that's in the scrap yard? The mark of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. If you continue to ferry people around for these Uber and Lyft for .60 a mile, that's what they will pay you forever. Quit driving and start yourself toward a better, stable life. It doesn't do your soul any good to wake up and allow yourself to be taken advantage of.


smh. Its true this job is not for everyone. But every reason you have listed is pretty basic thinking and even though it does not seem like its your own business, it does take some entrepreneurial thinking to make it work.

You don't have to buy a 25,000+ new car every 2 years. You can get away with a $5,000 cash car at least every year or two with basic maintenance that any half wit with a basic tool set and youtube can do themselves. (referring to myself)

Buying a cheaper car, means cheaper parts.

This $5,000 cash car should not have tires bigger than 17 inches. This way, you can easily get away with buying $80 tires from wallymart.

Finally.. insurance. This is the biggest myth. Uber matches your insurance... So, carry full coverage if your insurance does not offer rideshare insurance in your state. As long as you dont cause the wreck, there is no need for concern. Also, considering hiring an attorney whether you are doing rideshare or not. If your insurance does offer it, pay the extra money for it. USAA charges me less than $10 a month for rideshare gap insurance.

Oh and the whole IRS b.s. about it costs 54 cents a mile to operate a vehicle? B.S. After 3 years its way closer to 20 cents a mile in my personal experience.


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## nickd8775

eberglar said:


> The surges at McCarran Airport in Las Vegas have nothing to do with real time demand. The airport lights up every morning at around 4 AM. There are no planes landing at 4 AM. The first plane of the day will usually come in after 6, and when it does, the surge is gone. I never stage at the airport and never will but the newbies are all over like white on rice.


People open their Uber app and the number of rider apps open determines surge. When they fly out of Vegas, their phone GPS is still in Vegas even after they arrive at their destination. The red eye flights to the east coast land around 4 am. That confuses the surge algorithm


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## uberebu

nickd8775 said:


> People open their Uber app and the number of rider apps open determines surge. When they fly out of Vegas, their phone GPS is still in Vegas even after they arrive at their destination. The red eye flights to the east coast land around 4 am. That confuses the surge algorithm


Maybe this would explain all of the random hyper-focused PT at Metro stations.

My old analog tinker needs to catch up with this machine learning stuff. Oft and repeated observation is key in making a proper interpretation of Pokemon hot spots.


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## Nomad

Trump Economics said:


> Hello, Uber and Lyft Payday Loan recipients!


LMAO.

I think your theory is spot on... in larger markets. I've even seen it start to trickle into some medium-sized markets certain times of the year when rider demand is at its peak. But just like a lot of their other options (destination filter, the honeycomb, etc.), it's sampled in larger markets before spreading out to the smaller ones. So it's only a matter of time before we all see this.

I'm actually starting to become intrigued in trying to guess what manipulation feature will come next. My best guess right now is a "set your own rates" feature where you say "I'll be online, but only send me requests for 2.0x surge or higher." That way drivers can actually set their own rate and Uber/Lyft can fully claim we're independent contractors. Then when we're not sent any requests some will get frustrated, lower their standards, and willfully work for pennies.


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