# To Those Collecting Government Benefits, Start Applying for Work NOW



## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

This advice was likely offered already in the last two months but I continue to see much more threads regarding extending unemployment insurance, stimulus checks and other government handouts.

While this pandemic forced many businesses to close their doors, I honestly believe that this could have been an overreaction. I won't armchair quarterback policy creation but sooner or later, the hard questions must be answered.

Do you know that there were studies that concluded that for every 1% increase in unemployment, roughly 37000 people die? I understand the fear of catching COVID but people can take preventative measures. What's the ratio of those that caught the virus versus those that died from it?

While circumstances are very different now because of the very generous handouts, at some point the government will run out of other people's money. The taxpayer will be asked to provide more and families with already high liability will feel the pinch.

This doesn't just affect those out of work. The one's like myself and others still working that have a net tax liability will be tasked to pay for this. With many receiving money for providing nothing of value, our dollar will start to lose value causing our living expenses to increase as well.

Researchers at University of Chicago estimate that about 42% of jobs lost during this pandemic will be permanent. That's a loss of over 11 M jobs! Can you imagine how far this scenario will drive down wages? This game of musical chairs will leave many people standing with nothing.

While many pray that the Senate and the President will extend benefits, maybe you should consider trying to get a job before you won't be able to secure one. Many of those declining work because they "make more" on unemployment will be screwed once the benefits run out and their former employer found someone willing to work or closed their doors because they couldn't meet their obligations.

Benefits won't last forever.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/20/mos...s-temporary-but-research-shows-otherwise.htmlhttps://www.npr.org/2020/05/26/861906616/when-returning-to-your-job-means-a-cut-in-payhttps://www.businessinsider.com/emp...se-unemployment-aid-cares-mnuchin-jobs-2020-5https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryangu...more-from-unemployment-benefits/#48d421ec2fc3


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Not seeing much here to disagree with.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

......so your solution is, essentially, get a job? And SAH orders should never have been issued. yeah? 
I'm one of those making 'more' money on UI. However, once SAH orders are removed I'm going back online the very next day. Very glad I'm retired and don't have to worry about getting a fulltime job; what a mess that would be. And very glad my wife is a front line essential employee; no change in her income. But many many are not in that position and most aren't singing 'I'm making more money'; they use whatever they get to pay rent/mortgage, food etc. Try to keep in mind you speak of a minority.


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## jgiun1 (Oct 16, 2017)

Yeah....but driving people around for Uber/lyft is dangerous enough without the virus....not even the social distance called for by state's guidelines will be in affect and there's three damn potential carriers and spreaders during every ride...no Thanks


The main reason other than to slow the virus they shut everything down was to basically save the hospitals from getting jammed up with patients all in big clumps(and it did do that and allowed sick to get help and not done in a makeshift room in a parking lot tent) try and picture yourself not being able to breath, no ventilator, no family member's by your side in a hospital room in a parking lot.

That's why I laughed at this dummies showing #hastag show me you're hospital parking lot....lol


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

It is a hard sell to tell people they should give up their free $900 per week for watching Netflix, and get back to driving 50+ hours each week to clear $450, cleaning vomit stains weekly, and risking death by COVID, drunken assaults, and traffic accidents! 

I expect most to try and stay on the cheese for as long as possible.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Trafficat said:


> expect most to try and stay on the cheese for as long as possible.


not this pt'mer. Once SAH is removed in the counties I find myself in I'm going back online. This staying at home, at 2 months plus, truly does suck. The whole no school thing also sucked. But, yes, I'm in the crowd who make more on UI consistently vs RS on a weekly basis.

When Calif gets to phase 4, or maybe even phase 3 I'm out there. Oh scratch: I'm going online, whether or not there are any pings is another story.

And if schools actually open normally in Aug, my other gig will fire up with rides. All for it. Staying home is booooorrrriiinnnnggggggggggg


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

SHalester said:


> ......so your solution is, essentially, get a job? And SAH orders should never have been issued. yeah?


Yes, get a job before you're one of the 11 million with a permanently lost job.

I don't see anywhere in my post stating that the SAH should not have been issued. I do believe this could have been an overreaction and over two months of closing everything may not have been the best idea.

Also, I never claim those getting paid more while unemployed is a majority or even half. I do know 11 million jobs lost will leave many with nothing though, yeah?

&#129335;‍♂



jgiun1 said:


> Yeah....but driving people around for Uber/lyft is dangerous enough without the virus....not even the social distance called for by state's guidelines will be in affect and there's three damn potential carriers and spreaders during every ride...no Thanks
> 
> The main reason other than to slow the virus down they shut everything down was to basically save the hospitals from getting jammed up with patients all in big clumps(and it did do that and allowed sick to get help and not done in a makeshift room in a parking lot tent)
> 
> That's why I laughed at this dummies showing #hastag show me you're hospital parking lot....lol


I know this is forum is called uberpeople but many of these people drove part time and used this to supplement their main income. The title of the thread advises to _apply for work now_. Whether that's a typical 9-5 or rideshare, that's your choice.



Trafficat said:


> It is a hard sell to tell people they should give up their free $900 per week for watching Netflix, and get back to driving 50+ hours each week to clear $450, cleaning vomit stains weekly, and risking death by COVID, drunken assaults, and traffic accidents!
> 
> I expect most to try and stay on the cheese for as long as possible.


Again as above, I advised people shouldn't wait until it's all gone before applying for a job, If all they can get is rideshare, that sucks but I meant apply for a job.

Yes, they can enjoy their little staycation for now but when the government dole runs out and they're left scrambling to find a job, many of them will have to take whatever they can. With the possibility of 11 million jobs being lost permanently, I suppose more competition for you guys on the road as well.

Times will be tougher than ever.


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## The queen 👸 (Jan 2, 2020)

SHalester said:


> ......so your solution is, essentially, get a job? And SAH orders should never have been issued. yeah?
> I'm one of those making 'more' money on UI. However, once SAH orders are removed I'm going back online the very next day. Very glad I'm retired and don't have to worry about getting a fulltime job; what a mess that would be. And very glad my wife is a front line essential employee; no change in her income. But many many are not in that position and most aren't singing 'I'm making more money'; they use whatever they get to pay rent/mortgage, food etc. Try to keep in mind you speak of a minority.


I am using the money to pay All our bills not to go and get me a new chanel bag or a 2 weeks vacation in fidji. My husband paycheck goes back into the company. This is what we agreed upon me receiving UI/PUA. 
I don't know if I can find a new job at my age or in retail( store manager -visual manager) if they will not reopen malls or big stores like NM/ Saks/ Bloomingdales.

I might open a pizza place to go but I don't know now. Must do some research. For now ( summer) I will stay home . Will think about what I will be mynext step in fall . I migot go back to RS part time. It depend what and how this virus will detain or not .


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## smithers54 (Jan 7, 2019)

I am going to get hated on this one but...The money isn't free and it comes from some where. Our pockets. Yes one way or another we will have to pay it back higher taxes ect. and it will weaken the dollar. Now the people that put all their bags in one basket....I know some do this as a side gig and other do this full time. Which I think is rather silly because the money is not guaranteed. IMO people chose not to do DD GH UE INSTA ect. It was a choice and not that you were fired. I know of people making bank still. I am willing to bet that most are not employable to due that fact that they can't pass a piss test or unable to have the motivation to get up in the morning and of course there is the later that are retired or do this when the SO is home ect. Their are plenty of business hiring even though the pandemic. It shows was this country is going to go to in the next couple of decades. No one wants to work and wants money from the govt. and wants the govt to tell them what to do....you know what that is called? Socialism....


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## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

smithers54 said:


> No one wants to work and wants money from the govt. and wants the govt to tell them what to do....you know what that is called? Socialism....


@waldowainthrop we need you here.


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

The queen &#128120; said:


> I might open a pizza place to go but I don't know now. Must do some research.


Bear has made many thousands of pizzas and could help with your business. Bear has also eaten many thousands of pizzas, and could thus help with your research!


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## The queen 👸 (Jan 2, 2020)

smithers54 said:


> I am going to get hated on this one but...The money isn't free and it comes from some where. Our pockets. Yes one way or another we will have to pay it back higher taxes ect. and it will weaken the dollar. Now the people that put all their bags in one basket....I know some do this as a side gig and other do this full time. Which I think is rather silly because the money is not guaranteed. IMO people chose not to do DD GH UE INSTA ect. It was a choice and not that you were fired. I know of people making bank still. I am willing to bet that most are not employable to due that fact that they can't pass a piss test or unable to have the motivation to get up in the morning and of course there is the later that are retired or do this when the SO is home ect. Their are plenty of business hiring even though the pandemic. It shows was this country is going to go to in the next couple of decades. No one wants to work and wants money from the govt. and wants the govt to tell them what to do....you know what that is called? Socialism....


Well did you apply for those jobs that pay 10$ x hr? What are you doing right now? Are you working? Staying home collecting money? Please do tell.



Jon Stoppable said:


> Bear has made many thousands of pizzas and could help with your business. Bear has also eaten many thousands of pizzas, and could thus help with your research!


Are you MD? Montgomery County/ Bethesda?

if I decide to open a pizza to go , it will be a nice one. Just like on Italy. With real Italian pizza and other nice food . Not a Bolis/ Pizza Hut kind of place. If you serious, I might consider your offer. If I decide to go that route.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

smithers54 said:


> No one wants to work and wants money from the govt. and wants the govt to tell them what to do....you know what that is called? Socialism....


A socialist society involves work, otherwise it doesn't function, the same as any society. One of the central principles of socialism is organizing _workers_ and giving them ownership over their work (which strongly suggests that socialism is fundamentally about organizing people around _work_, not about lazing about or getting "free" stuff).

If you want to insist on defining "socialism" as "impossible failure", I can't stop you, but I can implore you to read a book about leftist economics. Socialism described accurately in terms of "owning your labor" as a worker is way more appealing than whatever people like to strawman it as.

Anyway, I'm not collecting benefits (except for the one-off $1200 stimulus that most taxpayers got) and I must get off my lunch break back to making myself an employable worker again in this broken and troubled economy. &#129303; &#128214;


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

The queen &#128120; said:


> Are you MD? Montgomery County/ Bethesda?


Bear would never live in the People's Republic of MoCo!


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## Mole (Mar 9, 2017)

Trafficat said:


> It is a hard sell to tell people they should give up their free $900 per week for watching Netflix, and get back to driving 50+ hours each week to clear $450, cleaning vomit stains weekly, and risking death by COVID, drunken assaults, and traffic accidents!
> 
> I expect most to try and stay on the cheese for as long as possible.


I'm getting $1,020 a week and I'm in the high risk area no way in hell I'm ever going to drive until a vaccine is available and in my state with a doctors note I do not need to look for work. I'm staying home and talking hikes and saving money.


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## lala2016 (Aug 14, 2016)

smithers54 said:


> I am going to get hated on this one but...The money isn't free and it comes from some where. Our pockets. Yes one way or another we will have to pay it back higher taxes ect. and it will weaken the dollar. Now the people that put all their bags in one basket....I know some do this as a side gig and other do this full time. Which I think is rather silly because the money is not guaranteed. IMO people chose not to do DD GH UE INSTA ect. It was a choice and not that you were fired. I know of people making bank still. I am willing to bet that most are not employable to due that fact that they can't pass a piss test or unable to have the motivation to get up in the morning and of course there is the later that are retired or do this when the SO is home ect. Their are plenty of business hiring even though the pandemic. It shows was this country is going to go to in the next couple of decades. No one wants to work and wants money from the govt. and wants the govt to tell them what to do....you know what that is called? Socialism....


I hope you are not collecting unemployment with this your comment. I really sure hope you're not!!


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

smithers54 said:


> I am going to get hated on this one but...The money isn't free and it comes from some where. Our pockets. Yes one way or another we will have to pay it back higher taxes ect. and it will weaken the dollar.


We will pay. Most especially our heirs. Inflation is just a form of taxation, so either way we are likely to pay. There is one possible way out of this trap so that can't be said for 100% certain. But the likelihood is that we have to prepare to pay a lot in the future for what is being done today.



waldowainthrop said:


> One of the central principles of socialism is organizing _workers_ and giving them ownership over their work (which strongly suggests that socialism is fundamentally about organizing people around _work_, not about lazing about or getting "free" stuff).
> 
> If you want to insist on defining "socialism" as "impossible failure", I can't stop you, but I can implore you to read a book about leftist economics. Socialism described accurately in terms of "owning your labor" as a worker is way more appealing than whatever people like to strawman it as.


I dunno friend waldo, my take after looking into it is that Socialism looks a lot better on paper than it does in practice. Maybe one day it could work, but not with the present sate of human nature/behavior.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

_Tron_ said:


> I dunno friend waldo, my take after looking into it is that Socialism looks a lot better on paper than it does in practice. Maybe one day it could work, but not with the present sate of human nature/behavior.


All I'm advocating is experimenting with new forms of organizing people. What we're doing (in all the variations of liberal, capitalist, authoritarian societies) isn't working _that_ well either, except in a few areas.

If human nature isn't capable of being more cooperative or bold, we'll be more miserable for it. And maybe it isn't - I'm not an expert.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

We're on the same page there. And the key is "human nature". and the evolution thereof. Once people have advanced to where they are not so easily corruptible then governments will not be so easily corruptible.

Have you ever seen the Bogart movie Key Largo?


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

_Tron_ said:


> We're on the same page there. And the key is "human nature". and the evolution thereof. Once people have advanced to where they are not so easily corruptible then governments will not be so easily corruptible.
> 
> Have you ever seen the Bogart movie Key Largo?


Only through eugenics and/or borg assimilation can a less corruptible human be achieved. Government will be corruptible too so long as it is run by these humans, but theoretically government could be completely administered by AI.

The fundamental principle behind free market economic theory is that people are motivated primarily by self-interest. This is mostly, but not completely, true.


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

Why? if one can just sit on the couch play video games while getting more freeeeeeeee mooooneeeeey than working a dead end job? Best course of action is the same as with uber... milk that cow till you can milk it no more. Write to your congressman/women and pressure them for more freeeeeeeeeeeeee moooooneeeeey.


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## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

_Tron_ said:


> I dunno friend waldo, my take after looking into it is that Socialism looks a lot better on paper than it does in practice. Maybe one day it could work, but not with the present sate of human nature/behavior.


I think the same could be said of unfettered free market capitalism. Which IMO is why neither system taken to its extreme is good. And the lesser evil is to have elements of both. As most western countries (including the US) do to differing degrees.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

M62 said:


> I think the same could be said of unfettered free market capitalism. Which IMO is why neither system taken to its extreme is good. And the lesser evil is to have elements of both. As most western countries (including the US) do to differing degrees.


Neither system works because they both defy human nature. The free market would require non-violent humans. A system that dissolved private property entirely would require selfless humans. Humans are both violent and selfish.

Violence will always exist because the gang will always want their protection money, and the cronies that bribe the gang will use the gang to distort the market by force. The gang can be the government or the mob.

Selflessness will never exist to any great degree because motivation to action is proportional to benefit.

Crony capitalism, at the moment, seems to be the only possible system that can exist. Socialist states become crony capitalist states when they turn to practicality. And free market states become crony capitalist states because government rulers are just as selfish as anyone else and why engage in free market capitalism when you can use the barrel of your gun to take what you need?


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## Mkang14 (Jun 29, 2019)

Trafficat said:


> It is a hard sell to tell people they should give up their free $900 per week for watching Netflix, and get back to driving 50+ hours each week to clear $450, cleaning vomit stains weekly, and risking death by COVID, drunken assaults, and traffic accidents!
> 
> I expect most to try and stay on the cheese for as long as possible.


Think we found the new marketing manager for uber &#128521;


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ColdRider said:


> I do believe this could have been an overreaction and over two months of closing everything may not have been the best idea.


um, above I took it to mean SAH was the overreaction you referred to? Is that right? What would you have preferred happen?


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## The queen 👸 (Jan 2, 2020)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Bear would never live in the People's Republic of MoCo!


Why?



SHalester said:


> ......so your solution is, essentially, get a job? And SAH orders should never have been issued. yeah?
> I'm one of those making 'more' money on UI. However, once SAH orders are removed I'm going back online the very next day. Very glad I'm retired and don't have to worry about getting a fulltime job; what a mess that would be. And very glad my wife is a front line essential employee; no change in her income. But many many are not in that position and most aren't singing 'I'm making more money'; they use whatever they get to pay rent/mortgage, food etc. Try to keep in mind you speak of a minority.


Taking the money. Will not be ashamed of it.


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## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

Trafficat said:


> Neither system works because they both defy human nature. The free market would require non-violent humans. A system that dissolved private property entirely would require selfless humans. Humans are both violent and selfish.
> 
> Violence will always exist because the gang will always want their protection money, and the cronies that bribe the gang will use the gang to distort the market by force. The gang can be the government or the mob.
> 
> Selflessness will never exist to any great degree because motivation to action is inversely proportional to benefit.


I agree that fully altruistic cooperation is pretty unlikely within human nature. But cooperation needn't be selfless. As an example, compare driving in a city like NY (where the attitude is 'me first' dog eat dog), to driving in a similar European city (where the attitude is more cooperative). IMO, the latter is a more pleasant and efficient experience for everyone.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Trafficat said:


> Only through eugenics and/or borg assimilation can a less corruptible human be achieved. Government will be corruptible too so long as it is run by these humans, but theoretically government could be completely administered by AI.
> 
> The fundamental principle behind free market economic theory is that people are motivated primarily by self-interest. This is mostly, but not completely, true.





Trafficat said:


> Neither system works because they both defy human nature. The free market would require non-violent humans. A system that dissolved private property entirely would require selfless humans. Humans are both violent and selfish.
> 
> Violence will always exist because the gang will always want their protection money, and the cronies that bribe the gang will use the gang to distort the market by force. The gang can be the government or the mob.
> 
> ...


That very well describes the situation. But there is a way out (other than eugenics and/or borg assimilation). That's why I asked waldo if he had seen Key Largo. It's just that there's a passage in the film that exposes the root cause of why government doesn't work. Or more granularly, why humans can't avoid selfishness (and the violence that often accompanies it).


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

The queen &#128120; said:


> Taking the money. Will not be ashamed of it.


I feel that. I'm in same boat ie I didn't need UI, but applied anyway. The system found my W2 job from 12 months ago, but I didn't select it and added my 2 RS gigs instead. They =still= approved me under regular UI, they ignored I didn't select it. OK with me, I was only aiming to see if the $600 was real. 
And with that I'm making more overall. Fine with that too; I worked for 4 decades and in that time I believe I had 2 weeks of UI between full time jobs. My company paid insurance on my behalf for 31 years and it was for nothing. 
Wife unit income never changed as she is a hospital worker =working= with CV19 patients. My investment income didn't change either. Fine with me.

My status is retired; RS was mostly for the time and schedule. When SAH orders go away for the counties that surround me I'll be online THAT day (assuming it's a weekday). Until then the UI makes staying hostage in my own house bearable. Wife unit won't even let me out for food shopping. I have the same full tank of gas from 3/18.

And if we can get through this thing wo her bringing CV19 home and infecting myself and our 11yr old son, it will be a win.

It's a good thing UI doesn't ask for assets or 'other' income. Maybe they should¿ Might make a few here happy, I think.


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## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> A socialist society involves work, otherwise it doesn't function, the same as any society. One of the central principles of socialism is organizing _workers_ and giving them ownership over their work (which strongly suggests that socialism is fundamentally about organizing people around _work_, not about lazing about or getting "free" stuff).
> 
> If you want to insist on defining "socialism" as "impossible failure", I can't stop you, but I can implore you to read a book about leftist economics. Socialism described accurately in terms of "owning your labor" as a worker is way more appealing than whatever people like to strawman it as.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not collecting benefits (except for the one-off $1200 stimulus that most taxpayers got) and I must get off my lunch break back to making myself an employable worker again in this broken and troubled economy. &#129303; &#128214;


Definitions of socialism aside. I don't think the "why should I go back to work when I can sit and watch netflix" attitude is a flaw in the idea of social welfare per se. Rather in social welfare within the modern American mindset. Which is primarily geared towards individualism. And often looks down on lower skilled workers as losers. In such a society, someone who gets money for not working is more likely to view those who do work as mugs. And those contributing to welfare just begrudge it.

In a society with shared common goals and work ethic, that's less likely to happen. Welfare gets viewed as a necessity for those who cannot work (for reasons beyond their control), and not something to exploited. Which IMO is why such flaws are less prevalent within the welfare systems of Nordic countries.


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Didn't take long for this thread to get derailed.

Eugenics and socialism, oh my. &#129335;‍♂



dmoney155 said:


> Why? if one can just sit on the couch play video games while getting more freeeeeeeee mooooneeeeey than working a dead end job? Best course of action is the same as with uber... milk that cow till you can milk it no more. Write to your congressman/women and pressure them for more freeeeeeeeeeeeee moooooneeeeey.


What will you do when that "free money" runs out? Beg on the street or apply for food stamps?



SHalester said:


> um, above I took it to mean SAH was the overreaction you referred to? Is that right? What would you have preferred happen?


Plenty of people working at grocery and department stores. How many of them die?

Police officers, firefighters, EMTs, nurses and doctors all working. They're adapting and taking preventative measures, why can't other industries follow suit?



SHalester said:


> I feel that. I'm in same boat ie I didn't need UI, but applied anyway. The system found my W2 job from 12 months ago, but I didn't select it and added my 2 RS gigs instead. They =still= approved me under regular UI, they ignored I didn't select it. OK with me, I was only aiming to see if the $600 was real.
> And with that I'm making more overall. Fine with that too; I worked for 4 decades and in that time I believe I had 2 weeks of UI between full time jobs. My company paid insurance on my behalf for 31 years and it was for nothing.
> Wife unit income never changed as she is a hospital worker =working= with CV19 patients. My investment income didn't change either. Fine with me.
> 
> ...


We get it, you worked hard and _deserve_ your benefits. Again, this thread wasn't necessarily targeted to the retired. Your social security check will be waiting for you whenever you decide to start drawing from that _account_.


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## smithers54 (Jan 7, 2019)

cold rider I agree. I think there are younger generations on here that think that free is free. At some point we will pay for the trillions of dollars back....govt takes and takes. SS is gone and never will replaced. Yes I do have a ft W-2 and no its not 10 bucks and no I do not nor ever have collected UI...I never put all my eggs in one basket.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ColdRider said:


> Your social security check will be waiting for you whenever you decide to start drawing from that _account_.


promise? &#129314; It's not for 10yrs, so I'm guessing it will be changed by the time I get there. No sweat company pension begins at 65.

I see you answered my question, with more questions. And with essential works, that seems a strange way to answer.

For regular workers, for schools, for businesses if you were a county medical officier what would YOU have done differently? And you have benefit of hindsight, should make it easy for you to answer.

What would YOU have accepted as the right way. No pressure.


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

ColdRider said:


> ...
> 
> What will you do when that "free money" runs out? Beg on the street or apply for food stamps?
> ....


umm drive uber? . Worry about it when you cross that bridge. Somehow I have a feeling we're not done with helicopter money. What's another few trillions on FEDs books... I mean... is anyone counting anymore?... does anyone care?


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

Trafficat said:


> I expect most to try and stay on the cheese for as long as possible.


The temptation of free government cheese is strong!


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

SHalester said:


> For regular workers, for schools, for businesses if you were a county medical officier what would YOU have done differently? And you have benefit of hindsight, should make it easy for you to answer.
> 
> What would YOU have accepted as the right way. No pressure.


Not force businesses to remain shutdown for as long as it has been. Provide PPE so employees and customers can protect themselves. If people get sick, have them stay home.



dmoney155 said:


> umm drive uber? . Worry about it when you cross that bridge. Somehow I have a feeling we're not done with helicopter money. What's another few trillions on FEDs books... I mean... is anyone counting anymore?... does anyone care?


:rollseyes:



M62 said:


> Like the opening post was purely practical advice, with no detectable economic or political leanings .
> 
> (Sorry @SHalester but I copied your trade mark emojis, please don't sue).


Political leanings, where?

Asking people to start looking for work is considered political now? If so, I feel very sorry for you.


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## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

ColdRider said:


> Asking people to start looking for work is considered political now?


Giving advice to look for work is not political, but between the lines of your wording are political and economic viewpoints. I'm not psychic, but I'd be pretty surprised after reading your opening post if you told me you're a Bernie supporter who's just giving advice based on the practical realities of the situation.

Note also, that most who liked your OP seem to be from one economic camp. Nothing wrong with all that. Just in light of it, I don't think it's considered 'derailing' if the discussion turns to capitalism, socialism, etc. That's all.


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

I love all the back to work talk when to this day I still haven't received a penny of unemployment or the EIDL money - 10 weeks after I stopped driving.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

ColdRider said:


> Asking people to start looking for work is considered political now? If so, I feel very sorry for you.


Everything is political.

Although not everything is a political argument, or a good political argument.



M62 said:


> In a society with shared common goals and work ethic, that's less likely to happen. Welfare gets viewed as a necessity for those who cannot work (for reasons beyond their control), and not something to exploited. Which IMO is why such flaws are less prevalent within the welfare systems of Nordic countries.


I tend to agree. Nordic countries are technically social democracies which are one of the best types of societies yet successfully implemented (to my mind anyway). It's not really socialism in full but it's pretty clearly influenced by socialism.

I'm no utopian and I have to give credit to Scandinavian democracies even if they're not perfect and even if our country isn't a good fit for their exact model.


----------



## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

The queen &#128120; said:


> Why?


Because MoCo is a nanny state with a very high cost of living, and also terrible traffic. Bear is a free bear in a free state!


----------



## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

SHalester said:


> not this pt'mer. Once SAH is removed in the counties I find myself in I'm going back online. This staying at home, at 2 months plus, truly does suck. The whole no school thing also sucked. But, yes, I'm in the crowd who make more on UI consistently vs RS on a weekly basis.
> 
> When Calif gets to phase 4, or maybe even phase 3 I'm out there. Oh scratch: I'm going online, whether or not there are any pings is another story.
> 
> And if schools actually open normally in Aug, my other gig will fire up with rides. All for it. Staying home is booooorrrriiinnnnggggggggggg


I have been the exact opposite of bored.

I might need to get a job so I can relax a little.


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## SkyHighTy (Apr 28, 2020)

This poster is assuming that people have actually RECEIVED benefits. The stats I’m following locally show an unprecedented backlog of benefits claims going unanswered. Most people are in a stagnation period because their debts and payment schedules have been renegotiated and they have no current source of income. I’m sure these people would take work if it was available.

This just sounds like paranoid conspiracy pablum.


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## Uberisfuninlv (Mar 22, 2017)

*To Those Collecting Government Benefits, Start Applying for Work Before the week of July 25th*

There I fixed it for you


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## PopcornEater (Apr 26, 2020)

wait, so people are collecting UI having the ability to find work?
Whaaaaattttt!! 😬


----------



## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

SkyHighTy said:


> This poster is assuming that people have actually RECEIVED benefits.


Yes, people have actually received benefits.

If people haven't, maybe that should



Uberisfuninlv said:


> *To Those Collecting Government Benefits, Start Applying for Work Before the week of July 25th*
> 
> There I fixed it for you


Thanks! Do you have any skills?


PopcornEater said:


> wait, so people are collecting UI having the ability to find work?
> Whaaaaattttt!! &#128556;


Foreign concept, right?


----------



## CJfrom619 (Apr 27, 2017)

Not this guy again. Bro cmon with these lectures. Your taking to adults...if they don’t get it by now then they probably never will. You might as well be talking to a group of deaf people. No one can here you.


----------



## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> A socialist society involves work, otherwise it doesn't function, the same as any society. One of the central principles of socialism is organizing _workers_ and giving them ownership over their work (which strongly suggests that socialism is fundamentally about organizing people around _work_, not about lazing about or getting "free" stuff).
> 
> If you want to insist on defining "socialism" as "impossible failure", I can't stop you, but I can implore you to read a book about leftist economics. Socialism described accurately in terms of "owning your labor" as a worker is way more appealing than whatever people like to strawman it as.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not collecting benefits (except for the one-off $1200 stimulus that most taxpayers got) and I must get off my lunch break back to making myself an employable worker again in this broken and troubled economy. &#129303; &#128214;


It's interesting looking at the likes on your post. Two are from posters I'd class as fiscal conservatives.

My wife is from a conservative background, where 'socialism' is generally considered a dirty word. But when I defined it in similar to terms to what you just wrote, she realised we're not so far apart in outlook.

I think free market capitalism and socialism both need certain societal variables, to work well. So pragmatically speaking, I feel some blend of the two, however imperfect, tends to work better than going all the way with either. TBH I've come to think that way about many political trends.


----------



## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

reg barclay said:


> It's interesting looking at the likes on your post. Two are from posters I'd class as fiscal conservatives.
> 
> My wife is from a conservative background, where 'socialism' is generally considered a dirty word. But when I defined it in similar to terms to what you just wrote, she realised we're not so far apart in outlook.


I think people respect a fair argument, even if they don't buy into it. I'm the same. I don't typically vilify conservative-minded people (unless they're nasty fascists or dull traditionalists), and I want to make myself hard to hold in contempt. I can't win at that game all the time, but I try.

I also think that since most people want the same things (for most people to not suffer, for a society to function well), they're willing to entertain many ideas that accomplish those things, even if those ideas don't adhere to some accepted orthodoxy.

A "work"-focused socialism is so against the grain of what many people popularly consider socialism to be, so maybe they doubt whether some of my principles are actually socialist? If so, that's fine by me, as I'm not wedded to the label.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Amos69 said:


> I have been the exact opposite of bored.


well, you are the bomb and you rock. How's that? :thumbup: I suppose I could go crazy with house projects, but no, I'm the type to hire and write a check for that kind of stuff. Not in the mood to manage a project. Retired from that shyte.


----------



## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> I think people respect a fair argument, even if they don't buy into it. I'm the same. I don't typically vilify conservative-minded people (unless they're nasty fascists or dull traditionalists), and I want to make myself hard to hold in contempt. I can't win at that game all the time, but I try.
> 
> I also think that since most people want the same things (for most people to not suffer, for a society to function well), they're willing to entertain many ideas that accomplish those things, even if those ideas don't adhere to some accepted orthodoxy.
> 
> A "work"-focused socialism is so against the grain of what many people popularly consider socialism to be, so maybe they doubt whether some of my principles are actually socialist? If so, that's fine by me, as I'm not wedded to the label.


This makes me realise that differences often get amplified by misunderstandings on either side, some of which appear semantic.


----------



## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

ColdRider said:


> This advice was likely offered already in the last two months but I continue to see much more threads regarding extending unemployment insurance, stimulus checks and other government handouts.
> 
> While this pandemic forced many businesses to close their doors, I honestly believe that this could have been an overreaction. I won't armchair quarterback policy creation but sooner or later, the hard questions must be answered.
> 
> ...


Benefits for unemployment are generous, but they are going to last forever. The amounts will go down, and disappear before people know it.

Circa 1981-1983, here in western Pennsylvania and adjacent regions, we had the Steel Collapse. Initially, especially for fellows that got laid off from the steel mills, it wasn't bad. up to 65 weeks of unemployment, special "Trade Readjustment" checks from the Federal government, SUB or "Supplemental Unemployment" checks for men laid off from the mill- funded by the companies.

Wasn't bad for the men at first. But in not much more than a year, they didn't have a pot to urinate in.

Getting your next job lined up ASAP as a lot to be said for it.


----------



## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

SHalester said:


> well, you are the bomb and you rock. How's that? :thumbup: I suppose I could go crazy with house projects, but no, I'm the type to hire and write a check for that kind of stuff. Not in the mood to manage a project. Retired from that shyte.


I love to be busy. If I am relaxing its cool, I can sit by the river for hours on end, but I have lived my life busy, and there is always something to do, so I have been getting caught up on lots of things around my properties. I understand others do other things, but I will never be bored. I still experience a great sense of satisfaction in accomplishing things. The dining room table I refinished looks fantastic!


----------



## PopcornEater (Apr 26, 2020)

I was considering Popcorneater69 🤔


----------



## eazycc (Apr 5, 2019)

Thankfully I have something lined up with a start date off end of June, but still.
Also on the high side there's also this shakedown: Remote jobs are getting punted to other countries (Uber is shifting some engineering to India to save some money), and even if they stay in the US, employers are ALREADY coming up with reasons to pay people less for remote work citing 'less living expenses'.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...work-option-but-it-could-come-with-a-pay-cut/


> "Our policy here has been for years-is already-that [compensation] varies by location," Zuckerberg said. "We pay a market rate, and that varies by location. We're going to continue that principle here."


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

SHalester said:


> It's a good thing UI doesn't ask for assets or 'other' income. Maybe they should¿ Might make a few here happy, I think.


Umm, no. Not another means test, please. One of my biggest fears is that social security will get means tested. I'm a (left leaning) independent, and one of my biggest fears about the Democrats is that they'll push that through.



M62 said:


> Giving advice to look for work is not political, but between the lines of your wording are political and economic viewpoints.


Absolutely he did. Plenty of snark in that original post.


----------



## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Christinebitg said:


> Absolutely he did. Plenty of snark in that original post.


What snark? And snark is considered political now?

I don't care which way a person votes. Whether you're a right winger gun nut or left winger with dreams of a utopia, unemployment benefits will not last you forever and many of the jobs lost will be permanent.

Of course, it probably doesn't affect you if you're retired but do you care about the people that will be without a job for good?

Banking on unemployment benefits being extended may not be the best use of their energy.

Advising people to look for work now before it's too late for them is considered snarky now?

Is it because I use words like government handouts, taxes, liabilities and so on that makes my post snarky?

If posts like that make you offended, maybe you should rethink things.


----------



## M62 (Sep 6, 2019)

ColdRider said:


> If posts like that make you offended, maybe you should rethink things.


Not sure where anyone said they were offended.


----------



## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

M62 said:


> Not sure where anyone said they were offended.


Sorry, wrong choice of words on my part.

I should have written that if they see the original post as filled with plenty of snark, they should probably reevaluate things.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Christinebitg said:


> biggest fears is that social security will get means tested.


yeah, no way for that. Period. If they want to do something like that, it would have to be for brand new SS numbers (babies?) and they know from day one. For everybody else, we grandfathered in.

SS trust fund is in trouble, so something will change at some point......it's a 3rd rail so the politicians are afraid.......


----------



## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

Amos69 said:


> I love to be busy. If I am relaxing its cool, I can sit by the river for hours on end, but I have lived my life busy, and there is always something to do, so I have been getting caught up on lots of things around my properties. I understand others do other things, but I will never be bored. I still experience a great sense of satisfaction in accomplishing things. The dining room table I refinished looks fantastic!
> View attachment 467501


That's almost enough room for bear's food but where does everyone else sit?

Because bear likes to eat their food too


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

ColdRider said:


> What snark?


Ask and ye shall receive:

"at some point the government will run out of other people's money."

No kidding, Sherlock. We all know that. But sarcastically pointing it out doesn't help.

"The one's like myself and others still working that have a net tax liability will be tasked to pay for this."

It would be more accurate to say that everyone who pays taxes is going to be paying for it. "Others still working"? Give me a break.

"While many pray that the Senate and the President will extend benefits, maybe you should consider trying to get a job before you won't be able to secure one."

I realize that's the basic premise of your post, but maybe you don't understand that not all of us need to have a job. I'm semi-retired, and I don't have to work if I don't want to. You're making some assumptions that don't hold true for a lot of U/L drivers.

"Many of those declining work because they "make more" on unemployment will be screwed once the benefits run out and their former employer found someone willing to work "

Not me. Who exactly are you talking to with that one? Uber drivers? Get real. Most Uber drivers don't want a regular job.


----------



## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Christinebitg said:


> Ask and ye shall receive:
> 
> "at some point the government will run out of other people's money."
> 
> ...


Ok.


----------



## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

SHalester said:


> It's a good thing UI doesn't ask for assets or 'other' income. Maybe they should¿ Might make a few here happy, I think.





SHalester said:


> What would YOU have accepted as the right way. No pressure.


I was gona ask about Pension but dam, at 65. Mine was is 55/30, So I had to say yes to pension, and it lists a bunch of other Incomes. It tops out at 999.99 , thought that's odd, cause I about 2.5 times that, hmm,... oh well. It didn't make a difference what I got. Since I got UI 5 years ago when they laid everyone off, plant wide closure so I just retired since had the age and years, plus wasn't looking forward to moving to Everette, WA. just to complete my 30 yrs.

As for what I would have done ?

First thing , stop all flights coming in from China then Europe. Thanks to PrisonPlanet and other Patroit sites I knew this whole Pandenic was going to happen just as it did 20 years ago. It was just a matter of how much food will be avail since I didn't stock up. And will I have to break out the firearms, Hmm,...

Oh and BTW, all this free gov cheese,... your childrens , children, children will be paying for it long after your body is dust.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> I was gona ask about Pension but dam, at 65. Mine was is 55/30, So I had to say yes to pension, and it lists a bunch of other Incomes. It tops out at 999.99 , thought that's odd, cause I about 2.5 times that, hmm,... oh well. It didn't make a difference what I got. Since I got UI 5 years ago when they laid everyone off, plant wide closure so I just retired since had the age and years, plus wasn't looking forward to moving to Everette, WA.
> 
> As for what I would have done ?
> 
> First thing , stop all flights coming in from China then Europe. Thanks to PrisonPlanet and other Patroit sites I knew this whole Pandenic was going to happen just as it did 20 years ago. It was just a matter of how much food will be avail since I didn't stock up. And will I have to break out the firearms, Hmm,...


Everett Wa is a fine place to live. Quality of life is amazing. Less than an hour to big city entertainment. Less than an hour to mountain enjoyment. 90 min to great skiing. Every type of water sports imaginable ( yes including that too) 4 full seasons including the finest summers anywhere on the planet.

I would have shut the borders tight from jump. No travel from anywhere, like Hawaii did. Two week quarantines for returning citizens et al.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

Amos69 said:


> Everett Wa is a fine place to live. Quality of life is amazing. Less than an hour to big city entertainment. Less than an hour to mountain enjoyment. 90 min to great skiing. Every type of water sports imaginable ( yes including that too) 4 full seasons including the finest summers anywhere on the planet.
> 
> I would have shut the borders tight from jump. No travel from anywhere, like Hawaii did. Two week quarantines for returning citizens et al.


I've had lot of stuff to do here too. Like building a Hutch for the desk and a self for behind to big screen out of the left over Red Oak plywood from cutting the entertainment center in half since big screens don't fit in them and nobody wants to buy one. Security cams, and doors. The list was pretty long. Now a few things left but not really motivated to do so.

Driving down the main road in Everette reminded me of Beach Blvd in Orange county, CA. without all the trees. I guess the thing is I don't think I would minded moving there to much since I was born in Victoria Can. but moved to So Cal at 8 moths old.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Amsoil Uber Connect said:


> about Pension but dam, at 65.


100% pension pymt at 65. I could take it now @ 57, but it would be reduced. That is unacceptable, so I'll wait. No big deal. Going to wait to 67 for SS for same exact reason: full pymt.


----------



## Another Ant (Jun 3, 2019)

ColdRider said:


> While this pandemic forced many businesses to close their doors,...


You wrote an excellent post.

However, there is one minor point I'd like to address. The pandemic did not force one business to close their doors. Rather, it was the actions of our state governments, acting on the recommendations of our federal government public health official "experts" and the media that did this.

It started as genuine concern of the unknown, then changed into complete hysteria, and has now morphed into a political issue.

Has anyone wondered exactly why it is that some of our most populous states, who happen to be governed by Democrats (California, Illinois, Michigan, New York, and New Jersey) are committed to continuing the lockdown as long as possible?

There is plenty of research that indicates that the overall damage to public health will be more severe from the lock down than the actual virus.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Another Ant said:


> There is plenty of research that indicates that the overall damage to public health will be more severe from the lock down than the actual virus.


over 100k families would disagree with such a 'statement'.


----------



## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Another Ant said:


> You wrote an excellent post.
> 
> However, there is one minor point I'd like to address. The pandemic did not force one business to close their doors. Rather, it was the actions of our state governments, acting on the recommendations of our federal government public health official "experts" and the media that did this.
> 
> ...


You couldn't be more wrong if you were an Ant Eater.

I know you believe the words you write but your premise balances on the thin blade of communist manifesto.

The actual crux of your point is why can businesses and USA citizens freak out because of a 6 month shutdown.

There are many more coming.


----------



## Ubertool (Jan 24, 2020)

SHalester said:


> over 100k families would disagree with such a 'statement'.


And when the lockdowns over and 20 million people are unemployed they might disagree with you


----------



## Another Ant (Jun 3, 2019)

Amos69 said:


> You couldn't be more wrong if you were an Ant Eater.
> 
> I know you believe the words you write but your premise balances on the thin blade of communist manifesto.
> 
> ...


?


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Another Ant said:


> The 100K number is vastly overstated.


oh where is @BigRedDriver he needs to know there is a new member for his club.

How much do you want to bet years from now we will find out the death count was actually far higher? Hmmmmmm? I suggest you do research on other pandemics before you take this bet.

Anyway, you are not alone on your fact(less) island. There are a bunch of members here on the denier's island. &#127965; I hear it's going to be a TV show on Fox. Trump will produce and star in it.


----------



## BigRedDriver (Nov 28, 2018)

SHalester said:


> oh where is @BigRedDriver he needs to know there is a new member for his club.
> 
> How much do you want to bet years from now we will find out the death count was actually far higher? Hmmmmmm? I suggest you do research on other pandemics before you take this bet.
> 
> Anyway, you are not alone on your fact(less) island. There are a bunch of members here on the denier's island. &#127965; I hear it's going to be a TV show on Fox. Trump will produce and star in it.


does that include the gunshot victims said to have died from COVID? Or the 20% taken off of Colorado's rate?

Still, I'm not sure why you invited me here. Even at 100k it is still far closer to the 2.2 million you and your scientists said we would have.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

BigRedDriver said:


> till, I'm not sure why you invited me here.


that figures. You are the sidekick in the new TV show: Virus Deniers Island. You steal the scenes from Trump. :laugh:


----------



## BigRedDriver (Nov 28, 2018)

SHalester said:


> that figures. You are the sidekick in the new TV show: Virus Deniers Island. You steal the scenes from Trump. :laugh:


go away boy, you only are seeking attention now.


----------



## Another Ant (Jun 3, 2019)

SHalester said:


> oh where is @BigRedDriver he needs to know there is a new member for his club.
> 
> How much do you want to bet years from now we will find out the death count was actually far higher? Hmmmmmm? I suggest you do research on other pandemics before you take this bet.
> 
> Anyway, you are not alone on your fact(less) island. There are a bunch of members here on the denier's island. &#127965; I hear it's going to be a TV show on Fox. Trump will produce and star in it.


I do not know of this BigRedDriver you write of, but I think I might like him/her since you don't.

Speaking of other pandemics and my research, it may be appropriate to discuss the 1957-58 pandemic, known as the Asian Flu. Also originating in China, it caused from 70,000-116,000 deaths in the US alone. Given that the 1960 US Census counted the population at 179,000,000 (the 2010 Census was approximately 309,000.000) it was quite a deadly pandemic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957-1958_influenza_pandemic
The 1957-58 Asian flu virus was named H2N2 and later mutated into H3N2, which caused the 1968 pandemic called the Hong Kong flu. This pandemic caused the deaths of another 100,000 people in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_flu
The main difference between these pandemics and Covid-19 is how our federal and state governments reacted to these two global pandemics in the 1950s and 1960s and their policy reactions now,

In 1957-58 and 1968 there were no lockdowns.

In a scholarly journal article published in 2009, titled, *"Public Health and Medical Responses to the 1957-58 Influenza Pandemic"*

Donald A. Henderson, et. al. wrote:

_"The 1957-58 pandemic was such a rapidly spreading disease that it became quickly apparent to U.S. health ofﬁcials that efforts to stop or slow its spread were futile. Thus, no efforts were made to quarantine individuals or groups, and a deliberate decision was made not to cancel or postpone large meetings such as conferences, church gatherings, or athletic events for the purpose of reducing transmission. No attempt was made to limit travel or to otherwise screen travelers. Emphasis was placed on providing medical care to those who were afﬂicted and on sustaining the continued functioning of community and health services&#8230;.there were no reports that major events were canceled or postponed except for high school and college football games, which were often delayed because of the number of players afﬂicted."_

https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...tney/f8828474370fe21b491f7c6b17808713a058a91a

The cardinal sin of the liberal is to ask for facts. Better to use the_ Ad hominem_ attack and label one a "denier" and then of course invoke Trump.

Debating a liberal reminds me of two things:

1. Shooting fish in a barrel. This is easy but boring.

2. Punching oneself in the face. Also easy, but rather unpleasant.


----------



## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> A socialist society involves work, otherwise it doesn't function, the same as any society. One of the central principles of socialism is organizing _workers_ and giving them ownership over their work (which strongly suggests that socialism is fundamentally about organizing people around _work_, not about lazing about or getting "free" stuff).
> 
> If you want to insist on defining "socialism" as "impossible failure", I can't stop you, but I can implore you to read a book about leftist economics. Socialism described accurately in terms of "owning your labor" as a worker is way more appealing than whatever people like to strawman it as.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not collecting benefits (except for the one-off $1200 stimulus that most taxpayers got) and I must get off my lunch break back to making myself an employable worker again in this broken and troubled economy. &#129303; &#128214;


Owning your labor is the American dream. It is called self employed and has enticed immigrants long before the USA was established.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Judge and Jury said:


> Owning your labor is the American dream. It is called self employed and has enticed immigrants long before the USA was established.


Yep. &#128077;&#127996;

It's also possible for people to be collectively self-employed (the now-rare family farm, the family business, the cooperative business).


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Ubertool said:


> And when the lockdowns over and 20 million people are unemployed they might disagree with you


not a chance. but nice try. Only a denier would compare death to being unemployed.


----------



## Ubertool (Jan 24, 2020)

SHalester said:


> not a chance. but nice try. Only a denier would compare death to being unemployed.


Not denying either of the 2 sides . Time to open back up and take precautions , same as when you buckle up before you drive .


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Ubertool said:


> Time to open back up and take precautions


add 'slowly' and I'll agree. Also add if new cases spike, all closed again.


----------



## Ubertool (Jan 24, 2020)

SHalester said:


> add 'slowly' and I'll agree. Also add if new cases spike, all closed again.


Agree , we are in phase 2 here in Vegas , some casinos will open June 4. With more precautions then ever . Time to get back to work , 7 weeks of idle time was enough for me


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Another Ant said:


> It started as genuine concern of the unknown, then changed into complete hysteria, and has now morphed into a political issue.


Dont forget one piece of it:

Our various governments felt the need to "do something." Since the only example they had was China's version of the lockdown, that's what they chose to do.

THEN after that, they decided since we couldn't do that indefinitely, they'd push wearing masks. (I'm strongly in favor of masks.)

If the masks are as good as we're told (and they may be), then the economic shutdown should never have taken place.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Christinebitg said:


> then the economic shutdown should never have taken place.


the masks are not 100%. People wearing them is not 100%. People wearing them correctly is not 100%. Nope, shutdown was correct.


----------



## Another Ant (Jun 3, 2019)

SHalester said:


> the masks are not 100%. People wearing them is not 100%. People wearing them correctly is not 100%. Nope, shutdown was correct.


The wearing of masks had nothing to do with the initial justification for the lockdowns in the several states. Based on policy recommendations made by the White House Coronavirus Task Force, the CDC, state health departments, and with mass media generated hysteria, state governors enacted lockdown policies by executive order.

On February 29, 2020, US Surgeon General Jerome Adams said on a cable news show and in a Twitter post that Americans should not buy and wear masks. He later changed his opinion of course.

The initial justification for the lockdown executive orders was to "flatten the curve" so that hospitals would not be overwhelmed. After three weeks it was clear that hospitals were not being overwhelmed, so it was time for the narrative to change.

The new lockdown narrative was to "keep us safe," even though valid research showed that it is mostly the elderly and those with chronic health conditions that are at risk of dying from Covid-19. Most infected people are asymptomatic.

What is truly illuminating is that it is largely the populous and Democratically governed states of California, Michigan, Illinois, New York, and New Jersey that insist on continuing draconian lockdown orders as long as possible, perhaps as close to the November election as possible.

The governor of California, Gavin Newsome, went so far as to state publicly,

*"We're not going back to normal. It's a new normal with adaptations and modifications, until we get to immunity and a vaccine,"*

There are seven known corona viruses that make humans ill:

Four human coronaviruses produce symptoms that are generally mild:

Human coronavirus OC43 (HCoV-OC43), β-CoV
Human coronavirus HKU1 (HCoV-HKU1), β-CoV
Human coronavirus 229E (HCoV-229E), α-CoV
Human coronavirus NL63 (HCoV-NL63), α-CoV

Three human coronaviruses produce symptoms that are potentially severe:

Middle East respiratory syndrome-related coronavirus (MERS-CoV), β-CoV
Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV), β-CoV
Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), β-CoV
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus

A successful vaccine has never been developed for any corona virus.


----------



## MikeSki (Apr 2, 2020)

Well guess what? The money is already appropriated. taxpayers will all repay it whether they received benefits or not sooooo....


----------



## fraqtl (Aug 27, 2016)

ColdRider said:


> I honestly believe that this could have been an overreaction


With a death toll of 100,000 people?

Some might say it was a drastic under-reaction.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Another Ant said:


> Most infected people are asymptomatic.


Umm, no. SOME infected people are asymptomatic. Most? Not near.



Another Ant said:


> that insist on continuing draconian lockdown orders as long as possible, perhaps as close to the November election as possible


That's just because you're afraid your guy will lose. He contributed to the problem, so I feel no sympathy for him.

"It'll just go away on its own."
"It's totally under control."
"It's not going to come here."



SHalester said:


> the masks are not 100%. People wearing them is not 100%. People wearing them correctly is not 100%. Nope, shutdown was correct.


I agree that they're not. Nor do they need to be.

If all they do is to lower R0 below 1.0, they're a huge success.

I put some of the blame on the current administration, for disbanding the pandemic task force a couple of years ago.


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## Another Ant (Jun 3, 2019)

Christinebitg said:


> Umm, no. SOME infected people are asymptomatic. Most? Not near.


*Up to 80% of COVID-19 Infections Are Asymptomatic, a New Case Report Says*
https://news.yahoo.com/80-covid-19-infections-asymptomatic-223007804.html
*Majority of COVID-19 cases in Louisiana prisons that mass test are asymptomatic*
https://www.wdsu.com/article/majori...ons-that-mass-test-are-asymptomatic/32634504#
*Iceland has tested one-tenth of its population for coronavirus at random and found HALF of those who were positive had the disease without realising - with only seven deaths in 1,600 *
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...opulation-asymptomatic-infected-Covid-19.html
*Testing Reveals 'Stunning' Asymptomatic Coronavirus Spread Among Boston's Homeless*
https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2020/04/14/coronavirus-boston-homeless-testing
*Asymptomatic COVID-19 cases may be more common than suspected*
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...9-cases-may-be-more-common-suspected-n1215481


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> Yep. &#128077;&#127996;
> 
> It's also possible for people to be collectively self-employed (the now-rare family farm, the family business, the cooperative business).


Good point. Family comes first. However, are these family farms self-directed in a socialist society? Also, extreme socialist societies seem to extrapolate the family farm collective into millions of families, "advised" by paid members of the state.
I have to admit, today has been long and frustrating, I do not know if this post makes any sense at all. Please advise.


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

fraqtl said:


> With a death toll of 100,000 people?
> 
> Some might say it was a drastic under-reaction.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Judge and Jury said:


> Good point. Family comes first. However, are these family farms self-directed in a socialist society? Also, extreme socialist societies seem to extrapolate the family farm collective into millions of families, "advised" by paid members of the state.


Statist communist societies (China, USSR) were totally wrong and betrayed any sense of workers' rights and democratic institutional structure essential in a free society. That kind of collectivism is merely authoritarianism and oligarchy with a leftist slant. China today is more like state-directed capitalism than it is like socialism. A Chinese worker can't even belong to a worker's organization that isn't run by the state. If you hear a leftist praising China or Soviet Russia, they're usually pretty foolish.

Libertarian socialism would be run entirely differently. It's hard to transition to that kind of society because people think of the state as a ruling force rather than as a delegate of the power of individuals and communities. In our society when people dissent significantly enough with the state, where do they often end up? In prison, in misery, or in an early grave. The state owns our society, and we tolerate that to a significant degree. In China it's far worse in that respect.

We'll only live in a libertarian society if people can get better at self-organizing and guaranteeing rights through societal structures. And that's a lot of work that people aren't yet willing to do. Until then, our choices are basically statist liberal capitalism or authoritarianism (or any combination of the two we can tolerate). I guess that's better than feudalism, but I'd rather start experimenting with something new.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

fraqtl said:


> With a death toll of 100,000 people?
> 
> Some might say it was a drastic under-reaction.


,
Did you know .... that 48,000 people die each year from smoking? Just in the US?
And most of those people chose to take the risk.

If you want to hunker down and shiver if fear of germs like Howie Mandel you go right ahead.
I won't kick in your door to sneeze on you.

But leave me the **** out of your psychosis.
I was born a free man.

Please don't ever run for public office.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> Did you know .... that 48,000 people die each year from smoking? Just in the US?


Know what ... I missed a zero.
It is 480,000 a year.

A HALF MILLION people a year die from smoking.

Know why? Because they are free enough to make that decision for themselves.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Another Ant said:


> The wearing of masks had nothing to do with the initial justification for the lockdowns in the several states.


did I say that? Nope. Said shutdowns were correct. Are correct. And wearing masks are back by science and facts.


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## Another Ant (Jun 3, 2019)

SHalester said:


> did I say that? Nope.


No, you did not say that. Further, I did not say you said that. What I wrote was:



Another Ant said:


> The wearing of masks had nothing to do with the initial justification for the lockdowns in the several states.





SHalester said:


> And wearing masks are back by science and facts.


This you did not write. At least not in this thread. Of course when you have written 6174 posts in a bit over nine months, I would think it is somewhat difficult to remember what you wrote, when, and where.

Your post that I replied to stated this:



SHalester said:


> the masks are not 100%. People wearing them is not 100%. People wearing them correctly is not 100%. Nope, shutdown was correct.


and was in response to:


Christinebitg said:


> If the masks are as good as we're told (and they may be), then the economic shutdown should never have taken place.


So, what I think you wrote is:

masks are not 100% effective,
100% of people do not wear them and
100% of people do not wear masks correctly. 
Therefore, the shutdown was correct.

This is some twisted logic that I have not yet seen politicians espouse who are adamant about maintaining the lockdowns indefinitely. Of course, I may have missed a Gavin Newsom news conference or two.


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## fraqtl (Aug 27, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> ,
> Did you know .... that 48,000 people die each year from smoking? Just in the US?
> And most of those people chose to take the risk.
> 
> ...


Lol.

No one is taking away your freadumz you dribbling idiot


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Another Ant said:


> This is some twisted logic


You seem confused on what you write and what I write. I KNOW what I post. And then you went on a tirade, odd.

So back to topic: masks work, period. Are they 100% safe, heck no. Are there ding dongs who don't wear them correctly, yes. In calif will they tell you to GTFO of a store wo a mask, yes.

Is you confusion cleared up now, newbie?


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

fraqtl said:


> Lol.
> 
> No one is taking away your freadumz you dribbling idiot


And no one will.
No way will America puss out like you guys did.

And, what do you know about it?
Were you born a free man? 
How long have you lived in the USA?

Whimper and beg your masters for a morsel ... bogan ass wipe.


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## Another Ant (Jun 3, 2019)

fraqtl said:


> Lol.
> 
> No one is taking away your freadumz you dribbling idiot


UberBastid has identified his location as the state of California. California continues to maintain for an indefinite time period some of the most restrictive lockdown policies in the US.

His, as you write, "freadumz," (your sarcastic spelling indicates you do not believe freedom is a real thing) as well as his fellow approximate 40 million other Californians, has indeed been taken away.

It would seem that a "dribbling idiot" has definitely been found, and it's not UberBastid.



SHalester said:


> You seem confused on what you write and what I write. I KNOW what I post. And then you went on a tirade, odd.
> 
> So back to topic: masks work, period. Are they 100% safe, heck no. Are there ding dongs who don't wear them correctly, yes. In calif will they tell you to GTFO of a store wo a mask, yes.
> 
> Is you confusion cleared up now, *newbie?*


Newbie? I believe I signed up on this forum nearly three months before you did.

Regardless, I am done punching myself in the face by attempting to debate (in a logical manner) with a California liberal. I should have known that is not possible,.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Another Ant said:


> His, as you write, "freadumz," (your sarcastic spelling indicates you do not believe freedom is a real thing)


He's Austrailian.
Nothing more needs to be said.
He gave up his ability to protect himself and his nut sack at the same time.
Prolly before he was born.

But, it's ok, because stupid Americans like me will pay and fight to protect him and his wossie aussie blokes.
And that makes HIM my b!tch.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Another Ant said:


> Regardless, I am done punching myself in the face by attempting to debate (in a logical manner) with a California liberal.


listen 'active member' where did I post I'm a 'California' liberal? In fact, I post the opposite. You are a newbie, don't read much here, aye? Not a Dem not a GOP. Not left or right. Right down the middle of the road moderate.

So back to topic since you just posted drivel: your opinion on masks? Being on UI? Applying for a W2 job? Do tell us.


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## fraqtl (Aug 27, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> No way will America puss out like you guys did.


You think it's somehow a virtue to have multitudes of people die when those deaths could be prevented?



UberBastid said:


> And, what do you know about it?


Plenty



UberBastid said:


> Were you born a free man?


Yes

It would seem you are proud of your death toll. Which is just stupid by any measure.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

fraqtl said:


> You think it's somehow a virtue to have multitudes of people die when those deaths could be prevented?
> 
> Plenty
> 
> ...


There are worse things than death my friend.
One of them appears to be getting borned an Australian.

We have had 0.0001% of our population die of the China Virus.

What's stupid is to ruin millions of people to save 105k people from a virus when 480,000 people die each year from smoking tobacco - voluntarily.
Another thing that's worse than death? Living in fear.
It must be awful to be you.
I feel sorry for you.

Wash out those knickers, stiff upper lip and all.
Everything gonna be ok.
Momma says so.


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## fraqtl (Aug 27, 2016)

Another Ant said:


> your sarcastic spelling indicates you do not believe freedom is a real thing


No, I do. It's just not the distorted and death worshipping version that the most hardcore gun loving, pro-disease Americans espouse.



UberBastid said:


> He's Austrailian


Wrong. But don't let that stop you.



UberBastid said:


> He gave up his ability to protect himself and his nut sack at the same time.


And yet we've still managed to maintain actual freedoms over here. Go figure.



UberBastid said:


> because stupid Americans like me will pay and fight to protect him and his wossie aussie blokes.


Why does the US keep begging us to send in our special forces?


UberBastid said:


> And that makes HIM my b!tch


Lol. What a pathetic, death worshipping gun cultist you are.

All you protect is your freedom to be massacred at any time by white terrorists crying over losing their privilege.



UberBastid said:


> There are worse things than death my friend.


Not many. Cause if you are dead you lose everything.



UberBastid said:


> We have had 0.0001% of our population die of the China Virus.


.0001% of your population would be 345. You've had 100,000 die. You are certainly a shining example of your public school system.

Also, it's spelled "coronavirus". Easy mistake to make.



UberBastid said:


> What's stupid is to ruin millions of people to save 105k people.


Well, you are already a quarter of the way to killing more Americans in a few months than we killed in WW2. So I guess America is the best at something again? You must be so proud.



UberBastid said:


> stiff upper lip and all


That's the British.



UberBastid said:


> Everything gonna be ok


I know. Because we did the right thing to have the lives of our friends, families and neighbors.


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## Another Ant (Jun 3, 2019)

UberBastid said:


> He's *Austrailian.*
> Nothing more needs to be said.


Steve Lee:

A real Australian.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Another Ant said:


> Steve Lee:
> 
> A real Australian.


I don't believe it.
DNA will show at least 55% American.


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## fraqtl (Aug 27, 2016)

Another Ant said:


> Steve Lee:
> 
> A real Australian.


You would be incorrect in that assumption. Some Australians use guns. Most don't like them per se. Our gun control laws have the support of the overwhelming majority of Australians, including those who actually own guns.

It's nice to be free to walk down the street without fear of an incel gunning you down.



UberBastid said:


> I don't believe it.
> DNA will show at least 55% American.


Probably.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

fraqtl said:


> Our gun control laws have the support of the overwhelming majority of Australians


Sure, because the overwhelming majority of Aussies are ... well, replace the A with a P.


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## fraqtl (Aug 27, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> Sure, because the overwhelming majority of Aussies are ... well, replace the A with a P.


Free to not be shot by random incels like yourself?

I'm curious, which well regulated militia are you part of?


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## Another Ant (Jun 3, 2019)

fraqtl said:


> It's nice to be free to walk down the street without fear of an incel gunning you down.


I think four people who lived in Darwin would disagree. That is, if they were still living.

*Australia reels from worst rampage killing in decades for a country thought to have solved this issue*

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/05/australia/australia-darwin-gun-attack-intl/index.html


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

My GF and I wear masks anytime we leave the apartment. We only go out to walk the dog or buy groceries.

She started feeling sick last weekend and wasn't feeling better by Wednesday. She went to a local testing site and found out she tested positive.

We live together and sleep in the same bed. I slept on the couch last night but whatever. I don't feel sick at all but if it's so contagious as many claim, there's no way I don't have it.

I guess I'm a dead man. It was nice _knowing some of you_.

&#128128;


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

fraqtl said:


> I'm curious, which well regulated militia are you part of?


I am a member of the Echo Squadron of the Cascade/Sierra division of the California Regulated Militia.
We are loosely associated with the Jefferson State Militia.
And, we have members who are pacifists and will not handle a fire arm. But not wussies.

One lady who is a physician and a pacifist has been a member longer than me commented once that "A few people commonly confuse pacifism with weakness. With me, they only do it once."


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## Another Ant (Jun 3, 2019)

ColdRider said:


> My GF and I wear masks anytime we leave the apartment. We only go out to walk the dog or buy groceries.
> 
> She started feeling sick last weekend and wasn't feeling better by Wednesday. She went to a local testing site and found out she tested positive.
> 
> ...


Unless you and your girlfriend are 70 years of age or older, obese, or have serious chronic health conditions, you should both recover completely.


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## fraqtl (Aug 27, 2016)

Another Ant said:


> I think four people who lived in Darwin would disagree. That is, if they were still living.
> 
> *Australia reels from worst rampage killing in decades for a country thought to have solved this issue*
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/05/australia/australia-darwin-gun-attack-intl/index.html


Yes. Our worst rampage killing is 4 people. And it's a year ago.

See, we can walk without fear because although that happened, that's the worst one we've had in _*decades*_.



ColdRider said:


> My GF and I wear masks anytime we leave the apartment. We only go out to walk the dog or buy groceries.
> 
> She started feeling sick last weekend and wasn't feeling better by Wednesday. She went to a local testing site and found out she tested positive.
> 
> ...


Unless you are 70 you will be fine. Don't you think you should go get tested? (Good luck, you'll be fine)



UberBastid said:


> I am a member of the Echo Squadron of the Cascade/Sierra division of the California Regulated Militia.


Excellent, at least you can read. Most gun cultists don't satisfy the militia requirement.



UberBastid said:


> One lady who is a physician and a pacifist has been a member longer than me commented once that "A few people commonly confuse pacifism with weakness. With me, they only do it once."


She's not a pacifist but that's fine.


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## DeadHeadDriver (Feb 7, 2020)

ColdRider said:


> I don't feel sick at all but if it's so contagious as many claim, there's no way I don't have it.


Sorry to hear about diagnosis. Drink extra water. Here is helpful info on how to Care for loved [email protected] & keep yourself safe from CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/care-for-someone.html
Guess its good time to start being a Customer of grocery delivery. (Know you were NOT doing IC prior, given your prior intelligent postings)
Best of health outcomes to you and your family! Please DO keep us posted on how things go. 
---We are looking forward to your Covid-19 Recovery postings.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> One lady who is a physician and a pacifist has been a member longer than me commented once that "A few people commonly confuse pacifism with weakness. With me, they only do it once."





fraqtl said:


> She's not a pacifist but that's fine.


Oh, you wanna argue definitions now?
Or semantics? (I am an anit-semantic ya know ... one who hates words)
Which dictionary do you want to use?


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## SpinalCabbage (Feb 5, 2020)

ColdRider said:


> My GF and I wear masks anytime we leave the apartment. We only go out to walk the dog or buy groceries.
> 
> She started feeling sick last weekend and wasn't feeling better by Wednesday. She went to a local testing site and found out she tested positive.
> 
> ...


Many people who get it never have any symptoms at all. You may be one of them. Keep an eye on her oxygen levels. If they drop too low take her to the ER. Watch for rapid heart rate and fast breathing. Those are the signs for a low oxygen level. If she turns blue-ish call 911. Good luck to both of you.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

ColdRider said:


> My GF and I wear masks anytime we leave the apartment. We only go out to walk the dog or buy groceries.
> 
> She started feeling sick last weekend and wasn't feeling better by Wednesday. She went to a local testing site and found out she tested positive.
> 
> ...


Holey smokes Cold.
I'm sorry to hear of that.
But, its *not* a death sentence. 
Keep healthy otherwise ... eat well, lots of rest, B12, Zink anything to boost your immune system.

Don't stop sleeping with GF .. it won't matter. If she's gonna get it, she will. 
And you both need the emotional support that will give.
You're in the same house so you're in the same boat.

Take care of each other.
You'll get through this.

Tough times all over these days.


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## Tony73 (Oct 12, 2016)

Aw, get a job, sounds good. Fast food or grocery stores? Those are the only businesses open. In two weeks when the protesters start showing symptoms of Covid-19 it’s going to reset the clock. Some states were ready to open in 2 weeks. Soon they’ll be forced to reverse course and restart the quarantine all over again.


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## Invisible (Jun 15, 2018)

Atom guy said:


> I love all the back to work talk when to this day I still haven't received a penny of unemployment or the EIDL money - 10 weeks after I stopped driving.


I'm also still waiting for unemployment, and I stopped driving almost 11 wks ago.


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Another Ant said:


> Unless you and your girlfriend are 70 years of age or older, obese, or have serious chronic health conditions, you should both recover completely.





fraqtl said:


> Unless you are 70 you will be fine. Don't you think you should go get tested? (Good luck, you'll be fine)





DeadHeadDriver said:


> Sorry to hear about diagnosis. Drink extra water. Here is helpful info on how to Care for loved [email protected] & keep yourself safe from CDC:
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/care-for-someone.html
> Guess its good time to start being a Customer of grocery delivery. (Know you were NOT doing IC prior, given your prior intelligent postings)
> Best of health outcomes to you and your family! Please DO keep us posted on how things go.
> ---We are looking forward to your Covid-19 Recovery postings.





SpinalCabbage said:


> Many people who get it never have any symptoms at all. You may be one of them. Keep an eye on her oxygen levels. If they drop too low take her to the ER. Watch for rapid heart rate and fast breathing. Those are the signs for a low oxygen level. If she turns blue-ish call 911. Good luck to both of you.





UberBastid said:


> Holey smokes Cold.
> I'm sorry to hear of that.
> But, its *not* a death sentence.
> Keep healthy otherwise ... eat well, lots of rest, B12, Zink anything to boost your immune system.
> ...


Guys,

I really appreciate the kind words. I know I'm probably one of the coldest people that posts here, but I don't wish harm on anyone. While many will disagree with my opinions, especially on shutting down the economy, we're all in this together.

Friday was the first time we tried grocery delivery service. It was pretty quick!

The last sentence in my post stating that _I guess I'm a dead man_, truth be told, was a little tongue in cheek.

I know our chances of dying from this are low. The deeper point of my post was that even though we are working from home, wear masks whenever we go out, only go out to walk the dog and do groceries, we were still able to catch it.

This draws back on one of the points in my original post. Shutting down the economy for this long will have its own repercussions but people are still catching it. Doesn't mean they're going to die from it.


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## fraqtl (Aug 27, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> Oh, you wanna argue definitions now?
> Or semantics? (I am an anit-semantic ya know ... one who hates words)
> Which dictionary do you want to use?


It's not an argument. A pacifist is someone who believes violence is unjustifiable. If she is violent towards them to correct their assumption of weakness (as you implied) then she's not a pacifist.


----------



## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

Another Ant said:


> *Up to 80% of COVID-19 Infections Are Asymptomatic, a New Case Report Says
> 
> Majority of COVID-19 cases in Louisiana prisons that mass test are asymptomatic
> 
> Iceland has tested one-tenth of its population for coronavirus at random and found HALF of those who were positive had the disease without realising *


Pick a number then, I guess. Whatever you believe in.

There are enough scary news reports to satisfy any pessimist's preferred level of anxiety.

There's a good friend of mine who's my age who shares tons of pessimistic articles on Facebook. Some of them legitimately good articles, some are garbage. If I got most of my news from what he posts, I'd be certain that in 5 years, we're all going to test positive for it, at least the ones who are still alive. And that there will be no progress on palliative treatments or vaccines of any kind.

I get that he's scared of it. He's had bad respiratory allergies since he was a child.

My point in all this is that while I'm concerned, I don't want to freak out or have a meltdown over it. I want to take good precautions (in contrast to my Significant Other, who's a Covidiot) but life goes on, and I hope to be around to participate in it.

I do know we need a TON more testing.



ColdRider said:


> I really appreciate the kind words. I know I'm probably one of the coldest people that posts here, but I don't wish harm on anyone. While many will disagree with my opinions, especially on shutting down the economy, we're all in this together.


I hope for her complete recovery, and that you don't catch it. I know that if my Significant Other gets it, I'll do anything i can do to help, including putting myself in harm's way. Since I'm in my late 60s, it would be risky for me, but I'd feel obligated to do it.


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

ColdRider said:


> Benefits won't last forever.


https://wgntv.com/news/work-from-ho...raging-150000-in-pay-to-begin-as-remote-jobs/
https://www.youneedabudget.com/ynab...uvjFoT9-HKyUm1UY9OALqbENP1WOq8NMVXVh274MFvA5A


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