# Real World depreciation and mileage costs....



## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

I ran the numbers on my car for depreciation, mileage, gas costs and maintenance.... here's what I came up with. This analysis is based upon an automobile that was driven slightly less than 30k miles and has less than 90K miles on the clock.... with ALL repair and maint. records.

- Gas is based upon $2.75/gallon
- Personal car insurance is Not included, it does not factor into the uberX cost because I pay it whether i'm driving for uber or not.
- Numbers are based upon slightly less than 30K miles driven.
- While driving Uber (boston city driving) I consistently get 18 mpg. (Car gets 32 mpg on the highway.)
- Car is a full size sports sedan..... with a real back seat and Plenty of power. That's what I like - that's what I drive.
I can't stand small econo- shitboxes whose mpg goes from 44 down to 34 when you have a full load of passengers and/or drive aggressively.
(FYI; The mpg computer on a prius does not track mileage in "real time", it's a simple mathematical equation based upon distance and speed/engine rpm's with an empty car that's driven like an undertaker. Prius drivers should verify their Real mileage the old fashion way.... gallons used/miles driven.
*
Gas Mileage:*
18 mpg average
1 / 18 = .056 gallons to drive 1 mile. (@$2.75/gallon)
= .15 cents to drive 1 mile.

*Car Maintanence + Repairs:*
.12/mile (repair and maintenance for last 30K miles, (I keep All my maint. records)
.0425 Car depreciation per mile, (car owned for 2 years).

.1625 cents per mile depreciation w/maintenance
+ 15 cents per mile for Gas

*= .3125 cents per mile total overhead

So it costs me just over 31 cents per mile to drive.
*
Did I miss anything??

Briko
*
*


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Car depreciation at 4 cents a mile?


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Depreciation seems low. How did you calculate it?


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> Depreciation seems low. How did you calculate it?


Took what I paid for the car 2 years + 1 month ago, car was used purchased from dealer - (NOT a New car). Then I subtracted what the car is worth right now,.... the average selling price if bought from a dealer.

I should also add.....
I do most of the car maintenance myself.... synthetic oil changes at 4k miles, brakes + rotors, tire/wheel changeovers, tune-ups, etc. Purchase 90% of needed parts (high quality) aftermarket, not from the dealer. If I do need a repair done I use a specialty garage that has fair prices, I virtually never go to the dealer.


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## Andy1234 (Jan 3, 2015)

Depreciation per mile can change quite a bit depending on the car and how many miles are already on the vehicle prior to rideshare driving. I drive an 05 chevy with 181k miles and my depreciation is so low it is hardly worth adding into the equation.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

There is a drop dead date for every vehicle. It may be at 200K miles or 300K miles. You have to take the total cost of the vehicle and spread it over the drop dead/zero value for the car at the end of it's life cycle.

I use $7000 a year depreciation value spread over 70K annual miles for *10 cents a mile* depreciation in anticipation of a 300K mile life cycle and the purchase of a used vehicle to run with at the end of that time. But this is also for an XL/Plus vehicle. I doubt an X only vehicle would be less than* 6-7 cents a mile* using a similar format. And there is also a much higher maintenance rate in the last 1/3 of that life cycle as well. It's exponential. The more miles, the higher the maintenance costs til full life cycle expiration.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

brikosig said:


> Took what I paid for the car 2 years + 1 month ago, car was used purchased from dealer - (NOT a New car). Then I subtracted what the car is worth right now,.... the average selling price if bought from a dealer.
> 
> I should also add.....
> I do most of the car maintenance myself.... synthetic oil changes at 4k miles, brakes + rotors, tire/wheel changeovers, tune-ups, etc. Purchase 90% of needed parts (high quality) aftermarket, not from the dealer. If I do need a repair done I use a specialty garage that has fair prices, I virtually never go to the dealer.


Sounds like you did the math right. If it only dropped that much in value after slightly less than 30,000 miles driven, it sounds like you got an excellent deal on the purchase. Depreciation usually costs Uber drivers more than gas does (yet most drivers ignore this cost). But then again, most Uber drivers get better than 18 MPG.

I applaud you for knowing the real and TOTAL costs of driving for Uber. I wish far more Uber drivers knew theirs.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> There is a drop dead date for every vehicle. It may be at 200K miles or 300K miles. You have to take the total cost of the vehicle and spread it over the drop dead/zero value for the car at the end of it's life cycle.
> 
> I use $7000 a year depreciation value spread over 70K annual miles for *10 cents a mile* depreciation in anticipation of a 300K mile life cycle and the purchase of a used vehicle to run with at the end of that time. But this is also for an XL/Plus vehicle. I doubt an X only vehicle would be less than* 6-7 cents a mile* using a similar format. And there is also a much higher maintenance rate in the last 1/3 of that life cycle as well. It's exponential. The more miles, the higher the maintenance costs til full life cycle expiration.


Yes.... All true scrurb...
However the reasoning behind my doing it this way is that I wanted a number that represented a present day analysis. The negative part of that is..... once I get +/-20K miles more I'd have to rerun all the numbers to get an accurate number. That's directly due to the higher 1/3 life cycle cost as you mentioned.

Overall though..... yours is the correct way to to the calculation.

Hmmm... Now I know what I should do..... My wife has an identical model car with the same (albeit less powerful) engine.... but hers is 7 years older than mine with considerably more mileage. I should run her numbers and balance them against mine.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> Sounds like you did the math right. If it only dropped that much in value after slightly less than 30,000 miles driven, it sounds like you got an excellent deal on the purchase. Depreciation usually costs Uber drivers more than gas does (yet most drivers ignore this cost). But then again, most Uber drivers get better than 18 MPG.
> 
> I applaud you for knowing the real and TOTAL costs of driving for Uber. I wish far more Uber drivers knew theirs.


To be clear..... the car has slightly less than 100k miles on it. The 30K represents the LAST 30k miles driven.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> Sounds like you did the math right. If it only dropped that much in value after slightly less than 30,000 miles driven, it sounds like you got an excellent deal on the purchase. Depreciation usually costs Uber drivers more than gas does (yet most drivers ignore this cost). But then again, most Uber drivers get better than 18 MPG.
> 
> I applaud you for knowing the real and TOTAL costs of driving for Uber. I wish far more Uber drivers knew theirs.


Probably helps with Boston X rates still being at a buck 20 a mile as well.

Even SO, using his math and *a very typical 1/1 ratio* of paid to dead miles, that still works out as follows.

$1.20 X .8 = 96 cents a PAID mile/2 = 45.5 cents a mile. It's costing him 31.25 cents to run.

*Net? 14.25 cents a mile.

Worth it? Oh hell no!* Even tossing in $4-6 an hour for the time pay quotient still makes it a marginal proposition. Drive 300 miles for a net $42.75 plus the time quotient pay it still sucks major ass. The only payoff is surge when it ups the ante.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

brikosig said:


> To be clear..... the car has slightly less than 100k miles on it. The 30K represents the LAST 30k miles driven.


That's how I understood what you were saying.

On a side note, if you do a used car estimate on sites like Edmunds and Kelly Blue Book, you'll find that increasing the mileage in the estimate drops the value of the car around $0.09 per mile. So for drivers who don't want to do the real math, I suggest a rule of thumb for a used car is to start with $0.09 per mile for depreciation. If it's a new car, like in it's first or second year, then it's likely around $0.15 per mile, but the real math that produces that is odd, given just driving a new car off the lot results in a loss of value of thousands.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> That's how I understood what you were saying.
> 
> On a side note, if you do a used car estimate on sites like Edmunds and Kelly Blue Book, you'll find that increasing the mileage in the estimate drops the value of the car around $0.09 per mile. So for drivers who don't want to do the real math, I suggest a rule of thumb for a used car is to start with $0.09 per mile for depreciation. If it's a new car, like in it's first or second year, then it's likely around $0.15 per mile, but the real math that produces that is odd, given just driving a new car off the lot results in a loss of value of thousands.


I think 'some' drivers understand that there is no way in HELL that a new vehicle will spread out well for UberX. All those poor bastards who bit the bullet on their high priced Uber leases are screwed to the wall. Those are the majority of the fools that are still on the road because Uber has 'em by the short hairs.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Probably helps with Boston X rates still being at a buck 20 a mile as well.
> 
> Even SO, using his math and *a very typical 1/1 ratio* of paid to dead miles, that still works out as follows.
> 
> ...


Yep, my Acura TL was costing me $0.32 a mile when Columbus dropped rates to $1.00 a mile. Not worth it at all. So I ONLY drive to game the guarantee. Surge rates can be profitable too, but you can't do both surge and game the guarantee at the same time. Columbus has been surging a lot in the past couple weeks, so I might switch over to the surge strategy when the new week starts tomorrow.

But anyone who drives for $0.14 of profit per mile is a dumbass. On that we agree! The scary thing is in cities charing $0.90, $0.80, $0.70 and $0.65 per mile, there are still people driving without surges. I hope they are gaming the guarantee, but some of their guarantees are $10 an hour, which after Uber's cut and drivers costs are subtracted, it's well below minimum wage. If $1.00 per mile isn't even worth it, then how is the system still functioning in these lower rate cities without Uber exploiting drivers who just don't know their real costs?


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

brikosig said:


> Yes.... All true scrurb...
> However the reasoning behind my doing it this way is that I wanted a number that represented a present day analysis. The negative part of that is..... once I get +/-20K miles more I'd have to rerun all the numbers to get an accurate number. That's directly due to the higher 1/3 life cycle cost as you mentioned.
> 
> Overall though..... yours is the correct way to to the calculation.
> ...


Just ran the numbers on my wife's identical 7-years older car.... worth 170K miles. Came out to .10 per mile repair and maint. costs. That surprised me.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

brikosig said:


> Just ran the numbers on my wife's identical 7-years older car.... worth 170K miles. Came out to .10 per mile repair and maint. costs. That surprised me.


Ultimately with any depreciation figures you have to take the initial cost of the vehicle and consider it's worth to be ZERO at the end of it's life cycle. The only other number in play is how many miles you think you can milk out of the vehicle, but it will be worthless or nearly so when done.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> If $1.00 per mile isn't even worth it, then how is the system still functioning in these lower rate cities without Uber exploiting drivers who just don't know their real costs?


The only guarantee with Uber and the low rates is a guaranteed financial bust out of every driver dumb enough to do it.


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## jimsbox (Oct 20, 2014)

brikosig said:


> I ran the numbers on my car for depreciation, mileage, gas costs and maintenance.... here's what I came up with. This analysis is based upon an automobile that was driven slightly less than 30k miles and has less than 90K miles on the clock.... with ALL repair and maint. records.
> 
> - Gas is based upon $2.75/gallon
> - Personal car insurance is Not included, it does not factor into the uberX cost because I pay it whether i'm driving for uber or not.
> ...


So your high performance car drops from 32 mpg to 18 mpg when loaded or drive aggressively but you are dismissive of more efficient cars like econoboxes and hybrids that only drop 10 mpg from 44 to 34 mpg as opposed to yours which drops 14 mpg in the same circumstances? What possible way do you construe that to be a positve argument for the more powerful car?


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## Bill Feit (Aug 1, 2014)

brikosig said:


> I ran the numbers on my car for depreciation, mileage, gas costs and maintenance.... here's what I came up with. This analysis is based upon an automobile that was driven slightly less than 30k miles and has less than 90K miles on the clock.... with ALL repair and maint. records.
> 
> - Gas is based upon $2.75/gallon
> - Personal car insurance is Not included, it does not factor into the uberX cost because I pay it whether i'm driving for uber or not.
> ...


Uber takes .20/mile so at 1.00/mile you start with .80, subtract the .31 and you make a whopping .49/mile....way to go. I drive a 2013 Sienna van and I loose!!!


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Bill Feit said:


> Uber takes .20/mile so at 1.00/mile you start with .80, subtract the .31 and you make a whopping .49/mile....way to go. I drive a 2013 Sienna van and I loose!!!


Nah, it's worse than that. The 80 cents a mile has to be spread over the dead miles too, so in real life applications it's more like 40 cents running a 1/1 dead to paid mile ratio minus the operation costs of 31 cents or *8 cents a mile. Not even close to 49 cents a mile.*


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

jimsbox said:


> So your high performance car drops from 32 mpg to 18 mpg when loaded or drive aggressively but you are dismissive of more efficient cars like econoboxes and hybrids that only drop 10 mpg from 44 to 34 mpg as opposed to yours which drops 14 mpg in the same circumstances? What possible way do you construe that to be a positve argument for the more powerful car?


You misunderstood what I wrote....
The ACTUAL/true mileage I get while ubering in and around boston is 18mpg. 18mpg as calculated by both the "real time" computer that is in the car as well as verified by me with the old school method. (The 32mpg highway has nothing to do with my uber mileage... I was simply mentioning what it gets.)

Obviously a prius still gets better mileage but at a cost because you get less for your money with respect to size/engineering/handling/performance/interior build quality-features.... and ironically it's a "green" car that is manufactured in a way that is terrible to the environment.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

brikosig said:


> You misunderstood what I wrote....
> The ACTUAL/true mileage I get while ubering in and around boston is 18mpg. 18mpg as calculated by both the "real time" computer that is in the car as well as verified by me with the old school method. (The 32mpg highway has nothing to do with my uber mileage... I was simply mentioning what it gets.)
> 
> Obviously a prius still gets better mileage but at a cost because you get less for your money with respect to size/engineering/handling/performance/interior build quality-features.... and ironically it's a "green" car that is manufactured in a way that is terrible to the environment.


They must not be horribly comfortably for people in the back seat. We have been getting quote requests from people who specifically ask that we not send a Prius. I say "don't worry, we don't have one" lol!!! But in all seriousness it does not look THAT much smaller than our MKS - but I've learned, a couple of inches here and there, depending on design, makes a huge difference. Town Car versus MKS - huge difference to passengers.


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## jimsbox (Oct 20, 2014)

brikosig said:


> You misunderstood what I wrote....
> The ACTUAL/true mileage I get while ubering in and around boston is 18mpg. 18mpg as calculated by both the "real time" computer that is in the car as well as verified by me with the old school method. (The 32mpg highway has nothing to do with my uber mileage... I was simply mentioning what it gets.)
> 
> Obviously a prius still gets better mileage but at a cost because you get less for your money with respect to size/engineering/handling/performance/interior build quality-features.... and ironically it's a "green" car that is manufactured in a way that is terrible to the environment.


I understand, I am basically pulling your chain. I have had everything from a 65 GTO to a MGB to my current Sonata Hybrid over 45 years of driving. I agree, buy what you want to drive. Have a great weekend.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

I fell hook-line-


jimsbox said:


> I understand, I am basically pulling your chain. I have had everything from a 65 GTO to a MGB to my current Sonata Hybrid over 45 years of driving. I agree, buy what you want to drive. Have a great weekend.


I fell for it....... hook-line-sinker. Bravo!! Have a good weekend also Jim. LOL


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> I think 'some' drivers understand that there is no way in HELL that a new vehicle will spread out well for UberX. All those poor bastards who bit the bullet on their high priced Uber leases are screwed to the wall. Those are the majority of the fools that are still on the road because Uber has 'em by the short hairs.


Yea.... they're stuck between the rock.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

brikosig said:


> To a certain extent... i see your "dead miles" opinion as flawed. Have you ever had a job that you DIDN"T need to commute too work for?? Virtually everyone has to drive to work + probably pay for parking.... or pay for public transportation to get there.


You are welcome to deny that there is a real cost to dead miles. That is just another form of driver denial. And yes, your personal commute miles to work carry a 'real cost' as well. You just don't get paid for them but supposedly a real job pays the real money required to pay such 'real costs.'


> In a given (part-time) uber week I drive about the same as when I worked for a firm, around 300 miles/week. I didn't get paid by my boss to drive to work, he didn't pay me to maintain my car. In addition, you're also assuming that when you're in a regular job, 100% of your time is billable to a client.... but it's not... every business has its non-billable time. I don't like it.... but it's reality.


Driver denial of real driver costs isn't a new phenomena here. That is what keeps a lot of fools driving. Math denial. A real job pays real money to pay real commute costs, so please don't claim your 'regular job' doesn't pay for dead miles. You do pay for such regardless.



> Calculated your way.....
> With those hourly rates.... $2.10 per mile average x .8 = $1.68 - .84 for dead miles = $.84/mile - .3125 = $0.53 is what I'm making per mile.


Yeah, claiming 'all surge' to drive Uber is another form of driver denial. Most are too embarrassed over their poor math skills on regular rates they quickly figure out that NONE of us have a problem driving for REAL PAY.

*But the bullshit walks. Get it?*

Most of us here also know that in driver saturated markets driving for surge only is iffy at best PRIMARILY because of so damn many math challenged idiots remain on the road for shit for pay. A lot of them don't have a choice because Uber stuck 'em in the ass with an overpriced high interest rate lease, so they are working for less than nothing to keep their ride from being taken from them. They were marginal drivers before they ever hit the road. No credit. No job. No propects. Yeah, let's stick 'em in the ass with a high interest rate lease and make them driver slaves.

Santander is going to get a LOT of worthless lease cars stuck up their own asses before this is done.



> Calculated for me for Real World.... with the same "commute" to work that I previously had... and Everyone else has to some extent....
> With those hourly rates.... $2.10 per mile average x .8 = $1.68 - .3125 = $1.37 is what I'm making per mile
> 
> You also left the $2.00/ride base off the table. In a 10-12 hr drive I'll have 22-25 rides. $50 you left out.
> ...


Yeah, well, bullshit on your no cost commute/dead miles theory. It's just another common lie that the Uber math illiterates use to justify working for shit for pay. Those miles cost YOU money no matter how you want to slice them. That's the bottom line. And spare me the 'I only drive surge' stories too. We all know you are driving the majority of your time for a net 14 cents a mile and probably about $3-4 an hour for the time pay.

Sorry for feeding you a reality sandwich. You should have prepared your own.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> You are welcome to deny that there is a real cost to dead miles. That is just another form of driver denial. And yes, your personal commute miles to work carry a 'real cost' as well. You just don't get paid for them but supposedly a real job pays the real money required to pay such 'real costs.'
> 
> Driver denial of real driver costs isn't a new phenomena here. That is what keeps a lot of fools driving. Math denial. A real job pays real money to pay real commute costs, so please don't claim your 'regular job' doesn't pay for dead miles. You do pay for such regardless.
> 
> ...


I never said that there weren't dead miles.... I see them as a cost of doing business... you don't. EVERY business has expenses needed to keep their operation running... that's a fact.

"a real job pays the real money required to pay such 'real costs." <<<true but there isn't a company in the world that doesn't have un-billable expenses. You see this uber venture as a "worker-bee" - that you go to work and you get paid for every hour you work, as does 90% of every other working stiff in the world that works for someone else. I view it from the perspective of as a business owner, this is not my primary source of income, running my small business for a decent profit is my primary source of income. And like every other business owner we have expenses that are not directly reimbursed.

I never denied real driver costs... not even the dead miles costs which Yes, do cost us. .....(you simply heard what you want to hear). If my math was so poor.... then why did you utilize all of it and then simply add on the un-billible miles?

I stated my Actual expenses down to the pennies..... as opposed to you, who left both the $2.00 /ride base and the .21 per minute rates entirely left out of your numbers.

Insulting someone... (a fool/illiterate). ... is simply an intellectually lazy response because you resent having a debate with someone who doesn't parrot your opinion. You hate the fact that at a certain level, a profit can be made doing this

Every driver drives some non-surge miles..... I've had my own small business for the last 8 years so I have the luxury of not having to do this full time so I can pick the more profitable 20-25 hrs of the week to drive. My drives are about 80% surges, that's fact, not speculation..... you've never seen my weekly pay reports... so you have ZERO knowledge of what you're talking about. ....... and I couldn't care less if you believe me or not. Do I think this is a profitable venture full-time?? ...... Barely - even in boston. I would never recommend it to a friend for a full time gig.

For a while I thought that boston was becoming saturated with drivers..... but I'm not sure now because whenever I'm out there I rarely wait over 5 mins for the next ping. But then I'm also not driving at the slow times.

Being an angry insulting ******** does nothing for the discussion or your argument. If it sucks so much for you, than quit..... but it appears you'd rather piss-moan and whine like a 14yo pms-ing girl.


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## IndyDriver (Nov 6, 2014)

If you see dead miles as a cost of doing business...then how could you not include them in your calculation? My dead miles driving Uber alone were substantially more than what my commuting miles to my day job were. You can't just ignore that or write it off...that is what Uber wants you to do.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> They must not be horribly comfortably for people in the back seat. We have been getting quote requests from people who specifically ask that we not send a Prius. I say "don't worry, we don't have one" lol!!! But in all seriousness it does not look THAT much smaller than our MKS - but I've learned, a couple of inches here and there, depending on design, makes a huge difference. Town Car versus MKS - huge difference to passengers.


I drive a kia soul and someone told me yesterday they were so happy it wasn't a prius! Never been in a prius but all the pax love my car so farm


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## Simon (Jan 4, 2015)

I agree with most here... you can't exclude dead miles. That's like accepting food loss because your running a crappy fridge. You fix the fridge to stop the bleed.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

IndyDriver said:


> If you see dead miles as a cost of doing business...then how could you not include them in your calculation? My dead miles driving Uber alone were substantially more than what my commuting miles to my day job were. You can't just ignore that or write it off...that is what Uber wants you to do.


Good point..... 
Because the nature of this job dictates that there will be considerable time when there's no one in your car..... there's no getting away from that. Whether or not uber wants you to ignore it or not doesn't matter.... because you'll Always have dead time and it's up to the driver to deal with it the best way possible. .... scrounging up more rides, bathroom brakes, lunch, watching porn??.... LOL. Even if there were 100x more pax looking for rides than drivers... giving us non-stop fares.... there would still be considerable dead time driving to-from pickups/dropoffs, albeit less of course.

If i'm doing $38 gross per hour (which I can easily do in boston when it's surging), .....that $38 ALSO covers the dead time. I don't make $76/hour while driving and $0 when I'm in dead time, I get paid for the whole hour. But certainly, down time costs us money.

In my view the per hour gross/net takes precedent over the dead vs "live" miles as a guiding principle in determining the viability of this job, (scrurb doesn't see it that way).

I primarily look at the overall per mileage cost in conjunction with the total fares.... keeping the mileage at 30-40% of the gross fares for a shift. When you're driving, the amount of dead miles isn't "measurable" as your working your shift.... but the gross fares and the mileage on my odometer for that shift are. It makes it simple to track your dead miles (aka profit-loss) against your running profit as the night progresses. ....and easy to relate to every other night you're on the road.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

brikosig said:


> I never said that there weren't dead miles.... I see them as a cost of doing business... you don't.


Of course dead miles are a cost of doing business. I've never claimed otherwise.

Many here try the angle that they would be driving unpaid miles to work a 'legit job' or would be driving casual personal unpaid miles if they weren't Ubering and they then say there is no cost.

The bottom line is that there IS cost and it's unavoidable cost that must be accounted for to get a real look at this gig. The general consensus is that a 50/50 ratio is normal. Less than 50% unpaid is excellent. More than 50% can be disastrous to the bottom line.



> EVERY business has expenses needed to keep their operation running... that's a fact.
> 
> "a real job pays the real money required to pay such 'real costs." <<<true but there isn't a company in the world that doesn't have un-billable expenses.


That's why they are 'dead' miles. They are nevertheless a cost to the driver that must be accounted for regardless of being 'billable.'



> You see this uber venture as a "worker-bee" - that you go to work and you get paid for every hour you work, as does 90% of every other working stiff in the world that works for someone else.


Uh, I doubt very much you have a clue. I view any work as X net $ to me regardless. Worker bee don't mean shit. You work. You have expenses. You get paid. You have calculations to determine net financial reality.

Whether it's for an hourly or for an income minus costs equals profits it's all the same biz animal, large or small.



> I view it from the perspective of as a business owner, this is not my primary source of income, running my small business for a decent profit is my primary source of income. And like every other business owner we have expenses that are not directly reimbursed.


The point remains that dead miles are an actual expense of doing business in this gig.


> I never denied real driver costs... not even the dead miles costs which Yes, do cost us. .....(you simply heard what you want to hear). If my math was so poor.... then why did you utilize all of it and then simply add on the un-billible miles?


The cost of doing buiness is ALL the costs involved. Pretty simple premise. Looking only at the paid miles is pointless.


> I stated my Actual expenses down to the pennies..... as opposed to you, who left both the $2.00 /ride base and the .21 per minute rates entirely left out of your numbers.


That base fee doesn't mean much either. They give 2 and take out 1 for SRF. So you get a buck a ride spread over the time worked.

Hourly time also needs to be divided by the number of minutes worked by the number of hours spent on the job. It's not uncommon for the minutes to run in the 30-40% range of total time spent on the app. Therefore at 21 cents a minute in reality it's 30% of that number when spread against the total time on the job or in your case, maybe $4 an hour when spread against the total time working.


> insulting someone... (a fool/illiterate). ... is simply an intellectually lazy response because you resent having a debate with someone who doesn't parrot your opinion. You hate the fact that at a certain level, a profit can be made doing this


No driver is making SHIT at 14 cents a mile after costs and that's where yer at. Claim all you want. The math don't lie.

The only leg left to stand on is surge and we all know surge pays differently. At a buck 20 a mile you ain't really doing squat. *From the IRS standpoint at that price you make ZERO taxable profit. *Try playing whoopee, look how much money I'm making with the bank on those figures when you need a loan to replace yer ride. They'll laugh you out the door.

And many of the drivers here are still trying to justify this gig *at HALF of what yer getting.

They are only bigger math fools.
*


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## IndyDriver (Nov 6, 2014)

You say you've run businesses before but your continued insistence on ignoring all the costs of operating your sole revenue generating asset in this business baffles me.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> I drive a kia soul and someone told me yesterday they were so happy it wasn't a prius! Never been in a prius but all the pax love my car so farm


That Kia soul is pretty funky looking.... not my "cup of tea"..... but a great style job. I've had numerous pax (usually bigger people) say that they were glad i didn't arrive with a "small car".... or "a prius". They definitely prefer a larger sedan when the subject comes up. It's black-on-black so some also ask if they ordered a "Black" car by mistake....which is kinda funny. Ultimately that doesn't matter..... because i get paid the same as the prius.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

IndyDriver said:


> You say you've run businesses before but your continued insistence on ignoring all the costs of operating your sole revenue generating asset in this business baffles me.


We get reimbursed by uber by the hour.... there are 2 things that happen within that hour... driving a pax or we're on dead time. We are paid for the whole hour.

Tell me then indy.... in a perfect world.... how would you eliminate the lost money from down time??


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## IndyDriver (Nov 6, 2014)

I'm not saying you can eliminate it. It is a part of the business. I am saying those empty miles are a cost of doing business that you have to deduct from your income in order to determine your true wage/profitability. And you only get reimbursed by the hour when guarantees are in effect...those aren't going to be around forever.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

The only leg left to stand on is surge and we all know surge pays differently. At a buck 20 a mile you ain't really doing squat. *From the IRS standpoint at that price you make ZERO taxable profit. *Try playing whoopee, look how much money I'm making with the bank on those figures when you need a loan to replace yer ride. They'll laugh you out the door.

I don't do car loans..... and on the money I've made from uber I've already banked $10k for my next (used) car. One that I won't be using for uber.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

$450 gross - 20% = $360 - $39.06 (125 TOTAL miles driven x .3125) = $320.94 net
$29.18/hour (11 hrs driving)
(..........The dead miles are figured into it.)


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## IndyDriver (Nov 6, 2014)

brikosig said:


> $450 gross - 20% = $360 - $124.69 (125 TOTAL miles driven x .3125) = $235.31 net
> $21.39/hour (11 hrs driving)
> (..........The dead miles are figured into it.)


That's great you were able to do that well...but also impossible without surge fares. While surge is the only thing saving a lot of drivers, it is unsustainable for Uber. Riders hate it and media always has a heyday with it. If Uber is working for you still, by all means, keep going out and making that $$. The problem is drivers should not have to RELY on surge pricing for this to be a profitable endeavor. I also see Boston rates are still 1.20/mile so you are in a bit more favorable climate for drivers than most of us.

$450 gross on probably 65-70 paid miles also seems way high to me...even with surge.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

brikosig said:


> The only leg left to stand on is surge and we all know surge pays differently. At a buck 20 a mile you ain't really doing squat. *From the IRS standpoint at that price you make ZERO taxable profit. *Try playing whoopee, look how much money I'm making with the bank on those figures when you need a loan to replace yer ride. They'll laugh you out the door.
> 
> I don't do car loans..... and on the money I've made from uber I've already banked $10k for my next (used) car. One that I won't be using for uber.


Sure ya did. Let's see. Using YOUR math at 14.5 cents profit per mile that means you clocked how many miles to make $10,000?

$10,000/14.5 cents a mile profit = *68,965 total miles.*

Part time too I bet?

You guys are a lot of fun though with this math stuff n everything.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

IndyDriver said:


> That's great you were able to do that well...but also impossible without surge fares. While surge is the only thing saving a lot of drivers, it is unsustainable for Uber. Riders hate it and media always has a heyday with it. If Uber is working for you still, by all means, keep going out and making that $$. The problem is drivers should not have to RELY on surge pricing for this to be a profitable endeavor. I also see Boston rates are still 1.20/mile so you are in a bit more favorable climate for drivers than most of us.
> 
> $450 gross on probably 65-70 paid miles also seems way high to me...even with surge.


Let's just say some drivers just have a very hard time with math. And the evidence for this fact has been mounting rapidly since the last rate cuts and the newbies who can't do math coming in here, objecting to the use of math to determine validity of the gig.

Most of the drivers that had half a math brain twisted out of Uber when the rates hit below a buck forty, myself included.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

IndyDriver said:


> That's great you were able to do that well...but also impossible without surge fares. While surge is the only thing saving a lot of drivers, it is unsustainable for Uber. Riders hate it and media always has a heyday with it. If Uber is working for you still, by all means, keep going out and making that $$. The problem is drivers should not have to RELY on surge pricing for this to be a profitable endeavor. I also see Boston rates are still 1.20/mile so you are in a bit more favorable climate for drivers than most of us.
> 
> $450 gross on probably 65-70 paid miles also seems way high to me...even with surge.


Yup.... everything you stated in this comment is true.
(there were 51 pax miles in that figure.)


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

$1.20 X .8 = 96 cents a PAID mile/2 = 45.5 cents a mile. It's costing him 31.25 cents to run.
*Net? 14.25 cents a mile.*

I figured out where you made your error.... you're using 76.75 cents/mile as depreciation (45.5 + 31.25 cents)... which is wrong. (Your additional 45.5 cents is in essence, double-dipping on the depreciation expenses)

The 45.5 isn't applicable because my .3125/mile depreciation is applied to the TOTAL miles driven in a shift...with BOTH pax and dead miles being accounted for.

....you're 14.25 is just angry-man fiction.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

http://www-math.bgsu.edu/~zirbel/carcosts/index.html


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

That base fee doesn't mean much either. They give 2 and take out 1 for SRF. So you get a buck a ride spread over the time worked.

HUH???....WTF???.......Dude... Are you drunk??

The passenger pays THREE dollars Total ...... $2 for the base fee, (boston) AND 1 dollar for the safety fee.
*... That Equals 3 dollars. *

Uber takes the 1 dollar Safety fee and WE KEEP the 2 dollar base fee.

Love how you gave me shit for MY math...LMFAO!!????


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

IndyDriver said:


> If you see dead miles as a cost of doing business...then how could you not include them in your calculation? My dead miles driving Uber alone were substantially more than what my commuting miles to my day job were. You can't just ignore that or write it off...that is what Uber wants you to do.


The cost of the dead miles ARE accounted for.... My "TOTAL miles" are reduced by my .3125 depreciation/mile figure. 
"Total miles" = pax miles as well as dead miles.


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## brikosig (Dec 16, 2014)

Simon said:


> I agree with most here... you can't exclude dead miles. That's like accepting food loss because your running a crappy fridge. You fix the fridge to stop the bleed.


The cost of the dead miles ARE accounted for.... My "TOTAL miles" are reduced by my .3125 depreciation/mile figure. 
"Total miles" = pax miles as well as dead miles.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

brikosig said:


> That Kia soul is pretty funky looking.... not my "cup of tea"..... but a great style job. I've had numerous pax (usually bigger people) say that they were glad i didn't arrive with a "small car".... or "a prius". They definitely prefer a larger sedan when the subject comes up. It's black-on-black so some also ask if they ordered a "Black" car by mistake....which is kinda funny. Ultimately that doesn't matter..... because i get paid the same as the prius.


I thought they were weird when they first came out but after driving one I loved it. I didn't buy it for ubering but because I needed something I could put the seats down and fit larger items in the back. I had a Ford focus before and when I needed to buy fence posts or anything it was a struggle. The soul is almost like having a small suv for space but better gas mileage and it turns on a dime.

I learned to drive in a 69 cadillac sedan de ville and did newspapers etc in vans and pickups. I love cars which are "boats" and large vehicles especially sitting higher up but not the gas mileage. So it's a great compromise for me.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> I thought they were weird when they first came out but after driving one I loved it. I didn't buy it for ubering but because I needed something I could put the seats down and fit larger items in the back. I had a Ford focus before and when I needed to buy fence posts or anything it was a struggle. The soul is almost like having a small suv for space but better gas mileage and it turns on a dime.
> 
> I learned to drive in a 69 cadillac sedan de ville and did newspapers etc in vans and pickups. I love cars which are "boats" and large vehicles especially sitting higher up but not the gas mileage. So it's a great compromise for me.


Plus hamsters drive them.
I had a 66 Sedan deville, I loved that car.


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