# How much are we really making???



## jc1001 (Oct 9, 2015)

After Uber's cut, after fuel, after water, after car maintenance, after tax.....not to mention the other expenses(traffic tickets, cell phone data plan, meals on the road etc)

Is it worth it? Why are we letting Uber takes advantage of our hard work?


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## REBU22 (Jun 1, 2015)

jc1001 said:


> After Uber's cut, after fuel, after water, after car maintenance, after tax.....not to mention the other expenses(traffic tickets, cell phone data plan, meals on the road etc)
> 
> Is it worth it? Why are we letting Uber takes advantage of our hard work?


Zero, but you get a pat on the back building this $50 billion company..

Uber on..


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## Skinny1 (Sep 24, 2015)

Not much....i am afraid to really pencil it all out.
I am fortunate I do it more for something to do, and a little extra. I'd fight for you all trying to make a living at this....its not right.


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## JustSayNoToUber (Oct 10, 2015)

I drove for two weeks, until I actually got the statements showing how little we get paid. After gas and expenses you are working for almost nothing! Uber is making between 33% to 45% depending on length of trip. With their new addition to the fee, they are making OVER 50% on short trips! 

Ridiculous!


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## Biovirus (Jun 3, 2015)

depending on where you live around 15-30/hr

Also depends on how ******ed you are on WHEN you decide to drive.


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## Hook (Oct 11, 2015)

BEER MONEY!!!


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## uberprotips (Oct 11, 2015)

Hamburger Money lol!


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

im making roughly 55% on my money

So if I put in $100 Im getting back $155 (Fuel cost and complete/anticipated maintenance)


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

jc1001 said:


> After Uber's cut, after fuel, after water, after car maintenance, after tax.....not to mention the other expenses(traffic tickets, cell phone data plan, meals on the road etc)
> 
> Is it worth it? Why are we letting Uber takes advantage of our hard work?


I earn plenty. Your logic is flawed. For instance, "meals on road". So you eat more because you're driving? Pack your meal and bring it with you if you don't want to pay for take-out/restaurant. The real question is what is your net profit after deducting ACTUAL expenses from gross revenues. I doubt you have the knowledge or motivation to learn how to properly account for your business. Those of us that do and are lucky enough to work markets with decent rates do just fine, in fact better than any other work I've done.


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## Sludge (Oct 5, 2015)

I use a car that I paid less than $4000 for three years ago. I've already gotten $4000 worth of use from it. I'm making money.


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## Uber_Saab (Aug 20, 2015)

I think I'm doing ok. I look at it as extra money. My Uber car is a 2005 Saab 9-3 Aero which I bought this summer for $850. I am a very capable mechanic. I put $200 in new tires. $200 in maintenance, brakes, oil, filters and such into the car. I work my tail off with the bar crowds and college crowds hustling as much as I can. I agree to rides that I think most drivers ignore. My record is 22 minutes one way to get a passenger. My average is less than $10 per ride if I look at my weekly statement. Last week I worked 25.5 hours, $439 for the 3 days Friday to Sunday and made 48 trips. MY Saab get 26 mpg and I put 93 octane in it at $2.99 per gallon right now in VT.


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

I'd use 91 octane in a 9-3 to avoid detonation. 93 is a waste of $ unless you have the turbo


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## Unfairuberfare (Oct 13, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> I earn plenty. Your logic is flawed. For instance, "meals on road". So you eat more because you're driving? Pack your meal and bring it with you if you don't want to pay for take-out/restaurant. The real question is what is your net profit after deducting ACTUAL expenses from gross revenues. I doubt you have the knowledge or motivation to learn how to properly account for your business. Those of us that do and are lucky enough to work markets with decent rates do just fine, in fact better than any other work I've done.


You are not earning more the a minimum wage. I recommend talking to your account.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Unfairuberfare said:


> You are not earning more the a minimum wage. I recommend talking to your account.


Oh really, internet wizard? I should talk to my "account"? Pardon me if I think I have a better grasp on my own finances and how to write up a Profit and Loss than someone who can't be bothered to proofread a 2 sentence reply. My ACCOUNTANT and I are on the same page.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

Things to understand:

The IRS deduction of $0.575 per mile is not suggestive that it _costs_ that much to drive a car. It's how much they allow you to deduct from your income so you don't have to pay 28% tax on that amount.

Keep your car related receipts, add them up, subtract those ACTUAL costs from your 1099 and decide if you'd rather use the IRS fifty seven cents deduction from your income taxes. I bet 99% of drivers will use the IRS deduction instead of actual costs.
If it costs you MORE than $0.575 per mile to drive, deduct the actual amount. But if you want to argue that it costs 99% of us that much to drive, then you are obviously incapable of performing simple mathematics.


Cost of your car (including interest) divided by miles you expect to drive your car before trading it in. I use 200k but you can use any number. That gives you cost per mile to own your car.

Add up your monthly insurance payments and your annual state registration costs and divide that by your expected miles per year. That gives you your cost per mile to legally operate your car.
Calculate your cost per mile for the fuel you buy. (cost in cents for a gallon of gas divided by miles per gallon)
Calculate your cost per mile for an oil change. (cost in cents for an oil change divided by miles per oil change)
Calculate your cost per mile for new tires. (cost in cents for tires divided by miles per tire change)
Add in a number for routine maintenance items like cabin air filters and brakes. The cabin filter is recommended at 20k miles and brakes need replacement about 80k miles.
Add all that up and decide for yourself if you have the savings necessary to pay for catastrophic failure of a major component like engine/transmission, which I assume lasts the life of the car. (200k miles)

I figure my cost at 40mpg and 10k oil changes (diesel, per operators manual) is less than twenty cents per mile. (as long as nothing catastrophic happens that insurance doesn't cover) Surprisingly, tires cost less per mile than oil.

So, I will be able to deduct $0.575 per mile, I won't have to pay taxes on 90% of my 1099 earnings from Uber/Lyft.

If you can't make sense out of this, maybe you can practice saying "You want the meal or just the sandwich?" I promise I won't stop by and tell you how many nuggets is a dozen.


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## nooneyouknowof (Sep 28, 2015)

DieselkW said:


> Things to understand:
> 
> The IRS deduction of $0.575 per mile is not suggestive that it _costs_ that much to drive a car. It's how much they allow you to deduct from your income so you don't have to pay 28% tax on that amount.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. I've done the math and I AM making money! People who think they aren't either suck at this job, suck at math, or have a very expensive and gas-guzzling vehicle.

I, too, will pay almost no taxes on my Uber/Lyft earnings.


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## William1964 (Jul 28, 2015)

I don't need much to live on, most of my money or debt when on to luxury concert tickets gold jewellery trips to Vegas. There's $5,000 right there if I hadn't spent it it would be in the bank account. I am definitely making money. After all my expenses I still have $1,300 left over every month


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## Crankcase (May 2, 2015)

Net I aim for $100 per quarter tank (and that's at 18mpg) so with prices as they are now I put in $10 and get back $100. On really good days I get about a $200 return on that $10.


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## NothingLeftToLose (Oct 8, 2015)

Yeah, christ, don't figure in your meals. Would you deduct those from your hourly pay at any other job? Traffic tickets? Slow down and be safe. I make my share of illegal uturns but thats on me. Water. Just don't. I live in Arizona and I don't give out water. 

Everyone's situation is different and how much money you make is going to depend on a lot of factors, your metro being a big one. Browse these forums, utilize any reasonable advice and, if it's still not sitting right with your situation, go back to the security of guaranteed hourly wage and a competitive benefits package.


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## cyberclops (Oct 18, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> I earn plenty. Your logic is flawed. For instance, "meals on road". So you eat more because you're driving? Pack your meal and bring it with you if you don't want to pay for take-out/restaurant. The real question is what is your net profit after deducting ACTUAL expenses from gross revenues. I doubt you have the knowledge or motivation to learn how to properly account for your business. Those of us that do and are lucky enough to work markets with decent rates do just fine, in fact better than any other work I've done.


Both your logic is flawed, meals are tax deductable because you work on the road it's not worth driving home to eat. And unless you own an electric car or a prius you're operating at a loss (below minimum wage) at least in Los Angeles. New driver make less than Uber for a minimum fare. Minimum fare as of last week in Los Angeles is $4.65... Of that $4.65 Uber takes $2.40 and drivers take $2.25. Out of that $2.25 drivers pay their fuel at the highest PPG in the US, car upkeep, food, insurance rate hike (for drivers) and taxes. You may deduct these but when you add in double the drive time for chasing the surge and driving around to pick people up you make less than minimum wage and considerably less than a living wage. Uber 2 years ago was decent but now it's slave wages because slaves were only paid in housing and food - that's what you make.


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

cyberclops said:


> Both your logic is flawed, meals are tax deductable because you work on the road it's not worth driving home to eat. And unless you own an electric car or a prius you're operating at a loss (below minimum wage) at least in Los Angeles. New driver make less than Uber for a minimum fare. Minimum fare as of last week in Los Angeles is $4.65... Of that $4.65 Uber takes $2.40 and drivers take $2.25. Out of that $2.25 drivers pay their fuel at the highest PPG in the US, car upkeep, food, insurance rate hike (for drivers) and taxes. You may deduct these but when you add in double the drive time for chasing the surge and driving around to pick people up you make less than minimum wage and considerably less than a living wage. Uber 2 years ago was decent but now it's slave wages because slaves were only paid in housing and food - that's what you make.


There's nothing flawed about BostonBarry's logic. The profit we make from driving is our gross revenue less our expenses. If your typical Uber ride is a minimum fare with lots of dead time in between rides, then it's not going to turn out to be very profitable. On the other hand, if you're keeping busy during surge times you can make out very well. So if you claim to be making less than minimum wage while Ubering, you're just not doing it right.


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## cyberclops (Oct 18, 2015)

Coachman said:


> There's nothing flawed about BostonBarry's logic. The profit we make from driving is our gross revenue less our expenses. If your typical Uber ride is a minimum fare with lots of dead time in between rides, then it's not going to turn out to be very profitable. On the other hand, if you're keeping busy during surge times you can make out very well. So if you claim to be making less than minimum wage while Ubering, you're just not doing it right.


The logic I was speaking of was food. it's tax deductable... all the rest is true as well depending on the city you work in. San Francisco has consistent surges while most mornings and evenings in los angeles and most cities surges don't go over 1.5 or 2.0 maybe in the morning. also has to do with your car. My car gets bad gas mileage so a 1.5 surge is below minimum wage and since Uber's app purposefully deceives drivers as to what the actual fair is, it's difficult to get a surge. I cannot tell you how many times I've been in a surge zone MILES away from a non surge zone and still get nonsurge calls in the NS zone and NS calls within the surge zone. Like I said, if you don't have a prius or prius like car you're screwed.


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

cyberclops said:


> ...*My car gets bad gas mileage* so a 1.5 surge is below minimum wage...


That's not Uber's fault.


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## cyberclops (Oct 18, 2015)

Coachman said:


> That's not Uber's fault.


Actually it is, they have a list of cars accepted and claim I can make good money using my car... That is completely untrue. If they want their partners to make money they should not allow cars on the list that require 91 octane and get 17 miles to the gallon with two people in the car.


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## Uzcaliber (Aug 22, 2014)

There is also car depreciation cost, depending on what kind and year of the car, typically between 10 to 25 cents/mile. For example, how much you could sell your car after adding 40,000 miles.


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## cyberclops (Oct 18, 2015)

Uzcaliber said:


> There is also car depreciation cost, depending on what kind and year of the car, typically between 10 to 25 cents/mile. For example, how much you could sell your car after adding 40,000 miles.


My car doesn't depreciate much because it's a limited edition. It will either stay the same value or go up.


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## opie (Oct 12, 2015)

According to AAA, the total cost per mile to own and operate a vehicle in 2015 is:

```
Small Sedan    Medium Sedan    Large Sedan    Sedan Average    Minivan    SUV (4WD)
Annual Total Cost       $6,729         $8,716         $10,649         $8,698         $9,372         $10,624
Annual Cost Per Mile    $0.45          $0.58          $0.71           $0.58          $0.63          $0.71
```
In the DFW area, we make $0.6375 / mile (base, no surge), so driving for Uber is almost always inherently at a loss (when you count "dead" miles for positioning and pickup).


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## tb1984 (Jul 24, 2015)

cyberclops said:


> Actually it is, they have a list of cars accepted and claim I can make good money using my car... That is completely untrue. If they want their partners to make money they should not allow cars on the list that require 91 octane and get 17 miles to the gallon with two people in the car.


Really? So, all of your faults are because of someone else's.

How about stop driving for Uber and being happy?

And, a lot of people say that working for Mcdonalds is better than Uber.


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## cyberclops (Oct 18, 2015)

tb1984 said:


> Really? So, all of your faults are because of someone else's.
> 
> How about stop driving for Uber and being happy?


I'd love to do that but as we all know, the economy sucks. I drive an hour or so a day because that's the only time I can actually make money. And yes, it is Uber's fault... They are violating antitrust law and will eventually lose a billion dollar lawsuit. i can't wait. They will at that time, be required to raise their prices and pay of drivers.


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## nooneyouknowof (Sep 28, 2015)

cyberclops said:


> My car doesn't depreciate much because it's a limited edition. It will either stay the same value or go up.


Lol. 99.9% of cars go DOWN in value. Unless it's a classic car or something, you're dreaming.


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

opie said:


> In the DFW area, we make $0.6375 / mile (base, no surge)...


Where do you get this figure?


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## opie (Oct 12, 2015)

$0.85/mile * .75 (admittedly ignoring the $0.10/minute *.75).


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

i work in your market so here's some advice: do not give out water. uber say's this is not a service.(no tipping) just get pax home safe. do not pick up riders more than 10 minutes away. you do not get payed for dead miles. your minimum fare is $2.40. you can't avoid that. but it's true. another fact is that you make less then other drivers. newbies pay uber a 25% commission (plus $1.65 safe ride fee), while we pay 20%. so yeah, you're right, after expenses and depreciation you make less than minimum wage. uber off!


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

opie said:


> $0.85/mile * .75 (admittedly ignoring the $0.10/minute *.75).


Oh, okay. I got lucky and activated while it was still an 80% share.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

cyberclops said:


> Both your logic is flawed, meals are tax deductable because you work on the road it's not worth driving home to eat. And unless you own an electric car or a prius you're operating at a loss (below minimum wage) at least in Los Angeles. New driver make less than Uber for a minimum fare. Minimum fare as of last week in Los Angeles is $4.65... Of that $4.65 Uber takes $2.40 and drivers take $2.25. Out of that $2.25 drivers pay their fuel at the highest PPG in the US, car upkeep, food, insurance rate hike (for drivers) and taxes. You may deduct these but when you add in double the drive time for chasing the surge and driving around to pick people up you make less than minimum wage and considerably less than a living wage. Uber 2 years ago was decent but now it's slave wages because slaves were only paid in housing and food - that's what you make.


My logic isn't flawed, your reading comprehension is.


> are lucky enough to work markets with decent rates


 I haven't spoken specifically to LA and neither did the OP, they imply that NO driver is profiting, considering I know this to be false I disagree. And those who gauge their earnings by minimum fares must be doing this wrong as I get 1 or 2 of these per month if that. I don't track the SRF or TSF, I track my deposits against my expenses. There are certain expenses that I had BEFORE beginning Uber/Lyft which I can now deduct from income such as cell phone plan (I use my personal line not an Uber phone), car insurance (not commercial) and various equipment/supplies for the car such as tire inflator, dustvac, jumper battery, etc. Considering these are costs I would have had without ridesharing, getting to deduct their cost from my income is a benefit.

When it comes to actual expenses I've put just under 20,000 business miles on my van since starting to drive rideshare in April (part time Uber at first, then 50 hours/week once I signed up with Lyft in June). The value of my van has decreased $700 (trade-in, private, and retail values) with the addition of those miles. My only major expense has been tires (they only had about 20% of their life remaining when I bought the van in March) and regular maintenance for a total of just over $600. My fuel cost comes in around $2500. I have grossed $21,400 in DEPOSITS (in other words, after commission and SRF/TSF). So what is my actual cost of business per mile?

Depreciation: $700/20,000 = $0.035/mile
Fuel: $2500/20,000 = $0.125
Maintenance/Repair: $600/20,000 = $0.03/mile
Total: $0.19/mile

Rates in my market currently are $2/$0.16/$1.24 for Uber and $2/$0.18/$1.22 for Lyft. I do have a minivan so I do take XL/Plus rides to pad my income but I think it is clear I could make out just fine on X/Lyft rates alone. Also, I am listing the supposed rate reduction for Lyft that was supposed to go into effect Monday, but hasn't changed yet. So at least up until today my actual Lyft rate is $2/$0.25/$1.35. Also, I do realize we are lucky in that our cancellation fee is $10 vs the typical $5. Also, 99% of my rides are Lyft as of June since I strongly prefer them to Uber.

So out of my $21,400 deposit I've earned $17,600 for a little more than 4 months full time work (6 months total but 2 months were part time and I did take a 10 day vacation in August). Multiply that out for the year and looking at $52,800. I am actually expecting quite a bit more as the bulk of my driving has been during the slow season here with good weather. Bring on another winter like last and I wouldn't be surprised to see that figure jump to $60,000 or more.

Are there markets and cars which are not ideal for this kind of work? Of course. But don't go around telling everyone that you're operating at a loss just because it is what you read on some blog. Understand your business or get out of it and do something you do understand.



cyberclops said:


> The logic I was speaking of was food. it's tax deductable... all the rest is true as well depending on the city you work in. San Francisco has consistent surges while most mornings and evenings in los angeles and most cities surges don't go over 1.5 or 2.0 maybe in the morning. also has to do with your car. My car gets bad gas mileage so a 1.5 surge is below minimum wage and since Uber's app purposefully deceives drivers as to what the actual fair is, it's difficult to get a surge. I cannot tell you how many times I've been in a surge zone MILES away from a non surge zone and still get nonsurge calls in the NS zone and NS calls within the surge zone. Like I said, if you don't have a prius or prius like car you're screwed.


I've never heard of personal meals being deductible unless traveling away from home for work (ie staying in a hotel or long haul truck driving etc) or conducting business over the meal (taking clients out to dinner, recruiting your waiter, etc). Even then it is only 50% deductible. While I could understand the argument that you are keeping the app on during meals and thus your meal is business related, I don't think the IRS might agree considering you are not traveling from home nor are you talking business over your meal. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't find any info to the contrary. My van's consumption averages 16 mpg, not sure how much worse yours could be unless you're driving an H1. Lastly, at this point I could incur a huge expense in the range of $5,000 and that would still only add $0.25/mile to my expenses. Though, to be honest, any service over $1,000 and I would simply trade-in or junk the van for $1500-3000 and get another in the same price range of $7,000. Not likely to happen any time soon since it runs great and has been taken good care of.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

peanuts


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## sUBERu2u (Jun 18, 2015)

There is no doubt in my mind there is a collaborated effort to discredit Uber and ridesharing going on in this forum. See the first few posts with no avatar. I am definitely making good money. In fact I just bought a Prius and am going to rent it out to ridesharing drivers.


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## opie (Oct 12, 2015)

I've not collaborated with anyone on this and am not aware of a collaborative effort to discredit Uber (other than those steps being taken by Uber, themselves).

For most drivers, the _long term_ expenses outweigh the _long term_ income (at least, in our market).


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## sUBERu2u (Jun 18, 2015)

opie said:


> I've not collaborated with anyone on this and am not aware of a collaborative effort to discredit Uber (other than those steps being taken by Uber, themselves).
> 
> For most drivers, the _long term_ expenses outweigh the _long term_ income (at least, in our market).


I didn't have you in mind when I wrote that, but you may be on to something. I work in the SF bay area. I never seem to make less than $18 an hour. On busy days, like 4th of July, I did about $30 an hour after fuel expenses.


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## Tclaudious (Oct 24, 2015)

I'm doing okay I average around 20 to $25 an hour I also have a very fuel efficient car I usually just hang out at the bus/train station or airport and nail minimum $20 trips maybe it's my area but I'm really enjoying it making this my full time job I don't like to work for anyone I like the independence and freedom I get from working with Uber


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## Sorainzo (Oct 24, 2015)

Lol, the people that are saying that you don't make any money aren't calculating their rates correctly. It may not be as much as you'd think off-top, but it really does add up if you stay consistent in a populated/demanding area.


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## Ayyostephen (Aug 6, 2015)

If you're not making a decent wage you're either in the wrong city or working bad hours. I pick my times very carefully and have been doing considerably well. You also need to learn you areas! I lost before I could win when i first started Ubering. I was in spots that weren't that great, but after awhile you just know where to go. 

On another note.. Friday and Saturday should be your BIGGEST earning days if that's not already obvious..

I earned even when i drove my gas guzzling Audi Q5 for Uber +, etc. Now I drive Uber X with my Prius.


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## SkipBarber (Jul 16, 2015)

Crankcase said:


> Net I aim for $100 per quarter tank (and that's at 18mpg) so with prices as they are now I put in $10 and get back $100. On really good days I get about a $200 return on that $10.


I don't doubt that you make money, but I have a real hard time believing you make 1.50-3.00 per mile. So basically every ride you take is surging and the passengers walk to you so you never have dead miles.


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## Crankcase (May 2, 2015)

UberBlack... Not X


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## SkipBarber (Jul 16, 2015)

Crankcase said:


> UberBlack... Not X


Ahhhh. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Minks (Oct 23, 2015)

Read this excellent article by opie...

http://massivelyuninformed.me/index.php/2015/10/30/a-taste-of-the-rideshare-economy/


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## Crankcase (May 2, 2015)

$0.06 per mile. Epic.


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## Matt Uterak (Jul 28, 2015)

Here is an example from one of my weekends.

270 miles driven

6.5 hours spent

$163.74 after UBER cut

Gross hourly before expenses $25.19

Gross per mile $ 0.606

Fuel Mileage average of 23 mpg at about $1.99 gallon (it is lower here now) = .086 per mile * 270 = $23.22 in fuel costs

$4000 2002 model car with 115,000 miles on it, I estimate 1/2 value in 2 years if adding 50,000 miles on it. 2,000/50,000 = $0.04 per mile * 270 = $10.80 depreciation.

Maintenance costs are more squirrely to calculate as one doesn't often think about them by mile. 

I calculate replacement tires at 50,000 miles, cost is about $500 for a set installed. 500/50000 = .01 mile

Oil change at 7,500 mile intervals cost is $30. I do my own changes, but we are looking at cost. 6.6 oil changes per 50,000 = .003 per mile.

30,000 mile service intervals = about $450 with the 90,000 service being about $1100. I estimate $1,000 actual maintenance costs over the 50,000 miles to build in a bit more reality. 1000/50000 = $.02

That is .033 per mile. I use .091to account for repairs and unexpected costs and make accounting a bit easier at a round .25.

So add this together .086 fuel + .04 depreciation + .033 maintenance = .159 per mile. With my cushion I used .25 per mile.

That means $163.74 -67.5 = $96.24/6.5 = $14.80 per hour. $.356 per mile

If we fully depreciate the car it would be .29 cost per mile. $13.14 per hour $.316 per mile

If we double maintenance costs .31 cost per mile. $12.31 per hour, .296 per mile.


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## Matt Uterak (Jul 28, 2015)

I should add, I doubt my cost of repairs will be $4,550 in 50,000 miles.


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## opie (Oct 12, 2015)

Please see my followup: http://massivelyuninformed.me/index.php/2015/10/31/rideshare-economy-follow-up/


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Another incorrect assertion is that XL vehicles cost more to operate. While the gas mileage is slightly worse, otherwise the costs are relatively close. Slightly used (50k+ miles) minivans are actually ideal for rideshare and carry some of the lowest overall costs.

I have an 08 Kia Sedona I bought with 75k miles. I've added 20k business miles in 6 months and the value has dropped evenly across the board (retail, private, and trade in value) by $700 which equates to $0.035/mile. That isn't a typo, 3 and 1/2 CENTS. Even if I were to junk the van today I would have lost $5500 after salvage bringing my total depreciation to $0.27/mile, this is very unlikely as the vehicle runs well. I've said this before and will repeat: Are there markets where rideshare carries razor thin profit margins? Definitely! Is that a problem worstened by one's choice of vehicle? Absolutely! But don't use misleading titles and statements while pointing to a single market and 1 or 2 weeks of data to make a blanket statement about the business in general.

I plan on deducting the standard IRS mileage because it is more than DOUBLE my recorded expenses to date. That is a GOOD thing. See attached photo for my breakdown of 6 months.

(Sorry, don't know why the photo keeps going landscape, tried rotating it in editor but when it uploads it keeps going sideways)


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## opie (Oct 12, 2015)

You are confusing expenditures with expense accrual. Expenditures takes into account only those things which you have actually shelled out money for. Expense accrual accounts for items that you are slowly wearing out like tires, bearings, CV joints, shock absorbers, cooling system maintenance (flush), transmission service, tire rotation, brake system service, air filter, fuel filter, spark plugs, belts, hoses, and many other things I'm probably not thinking of, but which wear out over use (and which you likely didn't have to have done in the last 6 months but will have to do, and do more often, eventually). That is why using the AAA numbers (or even just the IRS numbers) is a more realistic valuation of your true cost per mile. C'mon, if the IRS allows you to use $0.575 with no proof of expense at all, you know that has to be a low-ball number. The IRS never, ever gives things away in your favor.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

I do understand the difference. That is why I pointed out loss I would take if the car crapped out completely today. I would have spent $5500 on purchase and lost that. And still would have made a decent profit.

No the IRS doesn't give free money away but there is no way to get a one size fits all for every commercial vehicle. Some vehicles have higher costs. Some areas repairs cost more. Some people are capable of doing maintenance and repair themselves. The $0.58 per mile is also factoring depreciation from mile 1. I didn't buy my business vehicle at mile 1. I got someone else to eat the loss in value for the first 75k miles and I got it at a steal. If any repair comes along over $2k the van gets salvaged and I get another in a similar price range and condition. I keep records of my actual expenses just to compare with the IRS figure. As more maintenance and repair comes along those figures will increase but at the same time the number of miles driven to spread those costs over and the number of dollars I've earned continue to increase.

As I said, some markets suck. Some vehicles are terrible choices. But in no way is all rideshare impossible to profit from.


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## Muki (Oct 15, 2015)

opie said:


> You are confusing expenditures with expense accrual. Expenditures takes into account only those things which you have actually shelled out money for. Expense accrual accounts for items that you are slowly wearing out like tires, bearings, CV joints, shock absorbers, cooling system maintenance (flush), transmission service, tire rotation, brake system service, air filter, fuel filter, spark plugs, belts, hoses, and many other things I'm probably not thinking of, but which wear out over use (and which you likely didn't have to have done in the last 6 months but will have to do, and do more often, eventually). That is why using the AAA numbers (or even just the IRS numbers) is a more realistic valuation of your true cost per mile. C'mon, if the IRS allows you to use $0.575 with no proof of expense at all, you know that has to be a low-ball number. The IRS never, ever gives things away in your favor.


Keep in mind the IRS write-off must cover all car types. Some vehicles are substantially over .58/mile, such as a new luxury SUV. It would be unfeasible for the IRS to make a specific cost of ownership write-off for every vehicle year, make and model. So I think they just give this blanket figure to cover everyone and spare themselves the hassle. If your vehicle happens to have substantially lower operating cost, then take advantage of it. There are actually some poor fools out there Ubering with brand new vehicles who have no idea what a depreciation curve looks like. People like that will lose their ass.


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## Muki (Oct 15, 2015)

Hey Boston Barry, I'm impressed with your income figures. If you don't mind me asking how many hours a week of work do you average and what's your net hourly before factoring in car costs?


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

I'm working on a system to make my hourly tracking more accurate, experimenting with punch clock apps and SherpaShare. It is tough to gauge my hourly because I drive Monday-Friday mornings for a couple hours away from the city. I do this "passively" by sitting in my living room watching Netflix or doing chores/work around the house. So I'm not in my car and though my app is on I'm not "driving". I drive "actively" by going to the city on Thursday from 2pm-10pm, Friday from 2pm-2am, and every other Saturday from 2pm-2am. I try not to drive Sundays but if I couldn't go out on a Thu, Fri, or Sat I will trade it for Sun to make up the time. I am online for 50 hours/week to get the Lyft Power Driver Bonus, but estimate time in car closer to 40 if not lower. My deposits are between $1100 and $1300/week (so after commission but before vehicle and fuel expending), so an average hourly of $27-32.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

My Lyft bonus makes up for any distant pings that turn out to be short rides, and tips are just icing on that cake. I usually end the week with 52 or 53 hours, 97% acceptance, and 11 peak hours. Out of those 50 hours "available" I am going to a rider, with a rider for about half the time I'm "available". As Barry says: "Passive".

Monday A.M.: Getting laundry done, detailed the car, made dinner in the crock pot - it's free money if you can get used to not putting your life on hold because the app is on. If it pings, I go take care of it. Nothing I'm doing can't wait for me to get back. 

For instance; I wouldn't take the dog for a walk and be a half mile from the car when and if it ever pings.... but most things I do, like my "other" job, (self employed work from home) I can drop what I'm doing and go pick up/drop off and get back when I get back. I'm a really understanding boss about those long breaks I take to drive someone somewhere.

So these idle hours are a blessing - they contribute to my 50 hours a week and then later when it's busy I make a week's worth of income in 3 or 4 days. The biggest "struggle" I have is to get those peak hours covered so I don't have to pay Lyft their 20%.

$700/week (includes tips) costs me about 500 miles. A full tank gets me 700 miles, so I fill up on Sundays. If I didn't get the power driver bonus, that would cost me about $120.


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## SkipBarber (Jul 16, 2015)

Well said, re: vehicle choice. I drive wifeys 07 Ford Focus...started driving Uber 5 months ago...104k miles. Book value of car approximately $5500. Ive driven about 15k miles (I average about 30 hours, but do not do "passive" like you...I'm often with my 2 small children while wife works...so the 30 hours is pretty accurate)... I have approximately $8500 write off with .57 cents. Now, I am not making $30 per hour, but closer to 18 after gas. I have had minimal maintenance expenses thus far, and I will very likely pay 0 taxes. So the way I look at it...before repairs, the $18/hr is tax free...you tell me what that is worth if I was paying taxes...I'm thinking 25-27. And like previous poster mentioned, the true depreciation for this car is MUCH less than on a new(er) car. Mileage isn't as good as many, but at 28 MPG, I'm in the game.


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## MrBear (Mar 14, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> Oh really, internet wizard? I should talk to my "account"? Pardon me if I think I have a better grasp on my own finances and how to write up a Profit and Loss than someone who can't be bothered to proofread a 2 sentence reply. My ACCOUNTANT and I are on the same page.


The other guy is right, you need to talk to your accountant. You think your making money, your just looking at the cash flow. You can make more working at McDonalds


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

MrBear said:


> The other guy is right, you need to talk to your accountant. You think your making money, your just looking at the cash flow. You can make more working at McDonalds


No, he isn't. And as was the case with him I'm reluctant to take advice from someone who doesn't have basic grammar skills. YOU'RE is not the same as YOUR. I provided a detailed accounting of my expenses in my Saturday 2:30 post in this thread. I account for my actual expenses including fuel, amenities, supplies, repairs, maintenance, cleaning, and a REAL depreciation cost. Not some lofty estimate of what all possible repairs may cost me down the road, but instead what value I've lost in the car from purchase time to present day. As I've repeatedly stated, I could junk the van TODAY and still have profited over $15k in the last 4 full time and 2 part time months. Facts are more fun than theories.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

Nothing gives your opinion less validity than grammatical errors that rightly or wrongly hint at your intelligence level. When writing for all to see on a public forum, it's a good idea to ensure that you're spelling words correctly and using at least elementary grammar if you want what you write to be taken seriously. 
Do you have to? No, of course not. But don't be offended or claim "grammar Nazi" when you express an opinion and it's regarded as infantile because you can't be bothered to learn the difference between 'your' and 'you're.

Don't get me started on their, there, and they're. 

As far as cost to drive, there are many ways to look at it. Some prefer to let someone else determine their cost per mile and subscribe to the Runzheimer / IRS calculation of 57.5¢ per mile. Maybe it's appropriate for your vehicle, but not mine, not even close.

I calculated my cost per mile using a different algorithm that works for me and since I've been using my car for business longer than some drivers have been wearing long pants, I think I have sufficient experience to justify those costs from many years of driving and maintaining my vehicle and choosing wisely when deciding what kind of car to use for my IRS deduction purposes.

Will I get bit in the butt if I have an expensive unplanned repair? Yeah. It could happen. I'm not going to factor it into my costs because something _might_ happen, I think that's a bit too pessimistic for me.


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## opie (Oct 12, 2015)

In the long run, the actual number will converge on the AAA numbers and, in that analysis, there is no such thing as an "expensive unplanned repair" (as the AAA numbers express such possibilities as a real cost). But, as John Maynard Keynes said, in the long run we're all dead.

Aggregating a large number of drivers in the short term approximates the long term numbers on average (except for that "dead" part). Yes, there are outliers (and you may very well be one of those outliers). The average driver can only count on doing as well as...well, the average driver.

(I hope I didn't misspell anything in the above.)


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## opie (Oct 12, 2015)

Stated another way, citing my unprofitable experience as being absolutely what one's results will be are just as (in)valid as citing your profitable results as being what one should expect. Nothing in this is an absolute. It is a discussion that, hopefully, educates all readers as to both what to expect as an outcome and what they can do themselves to positively affect that outcome.


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## DieselkW (Jul 21, 2015)

An "expensive unplanned repair" is major engine or transmission work in my algorithm. I have been working with diesel generators (DieselkW, get it?) for most of my adult life. There's a reason all long haul heavy duty road transportation runs on diesel fuel. The engine is nearly indestructible. As a passenger car engine, a half million miles is a realistic expectation, I plugged 200k into my spreadsheet, so it is "expected" that I am driving for less than I figure. The life of the engine is the second most expensive aspect of my calculation. 
The AAA number is a conglomeration of costs per vehicle that includes all available manufactured vehicles. It is only an "average" if you drive an "average" vehicle, whatever that might be. (Chevy Impala?) If you drive a super fuel efficient and durable vehicle like a Prius, that can run for hundreds of thousands of miles without major and expensive repairs, it is quite easy to "average" your per mile costs to much less than the IRS/Runzheimer/AAA calculated costs.


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