# Rigorous Cornell Study on Ant Earnings - Ants Overcompensated Relative to Skills



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Les Ants,

I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.

Linked is a New York Times piece that summarizes and attempts to discredit the 136 page Cornell piece that is also linked. The study was conducted using data from both UBER and Lyft. This is the most rigorous study I have seen on the topic and the methodologies are sound. It adjusts earnings in ways that I have been advocating for for some time.

For instance, it nets out the time that ants are running both apps, ie. if you are running both apps for an hour, it counts it as an hour, not two. This is a huge adjustment for the denominator. It also only includes incremental costs and excludes things like insurance, which the Ant would be paying for regardless. It also deducts depreciation due to the aging of the vehicle, which again would happen regardless of Anting. It includes depreciation from mileage (note that the diminution in value of a vehicle has two components - the age and the mileage). The most controversial exclusion is wait time when not actively driving or en route to a pickup. If you believe that time should be included, you can deduct $2.50 from the levels below.

After applying this thoughtful analysis, the researchers concluded that part-time Ants, which they peg as 85% of the population, make $23.25/hour AFTER expenses or $46,500 annually based on 40 hrs. a week for 50 weeks a year. Full-time Ants make $17.40/hour or $34,800 annually. Many recent college graduates are making between $39-$48k as illustrated by the table below.

For a profession (Anting) that requires no education and very little skill, it appears that the Ants are being overcompensated.




















When Scholars Collaborate With Tech Companies, How Reliable Are the Findings? (Published 2020)


Uber and Lyft hailed a Cornell paper’s conclusion that their drivers make solid wages. But others have questioned the researchers’ approach.




www.nytimes.com







https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/74305/Cornell_Seattle_Uber_Lyft_Project_Report____Final_Version__JDD_accessibility_edits__7_14_2020.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y



Toodles,

De La Creme


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

There's no good times
there's no bad times
there's just the New York Times


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> Les Ants,
> 
> I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.
> 
> ...


The premise of your article is that a university degree guarantees a well paying job, due to the investment in the cost of the degree. However, that is not assured or guaranteed. Especially if you have an libertyl arts degree. 

Overpay is only meaningful after factoring the cost of living in your area. Anyone living in NYC or SF, will definitley not be overpaid because the cost of living is so high and unaffordable. No matter how much income you make, you will never be overpaid compared to Technology CEOs paid in 7 figures.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> The premise of your article is that a university degree guarantees a well paying job, due to the investment in the cost of the degree. However, that is not assured or guaranteed. Especially if you have an libertyl arts degree.
> 
> Overpay is only meaningful after factoring the cost of living in your area. Anyone living in NYC or SF, will definitley not be overpaid because the cost of living is so high and unaffordable. No matter how much income you make, you will never be overpaid compared to Technology CEOs paid in 7 figures.


No one implied that a degree guarantees a well-paying job. I posted that data to compare to what the average Ant is earning to help elucidate whether, in fact, the Ants are paid as poorly as some here would have you believe. I contended that an Ant with no real skills, no education, no need to even speak the dominant language, should not be as highly compensated as your average college grad, regardless of degree.

One of the most important skills one can possess is the ability to write concisely and cogently. Liberal arts graduates tend to excel in this regard.

I think cost of living is somewhat important, but I'd need to see what the average college grad with those same majors is earning in those locations to have an informed opinion.

If Tech CEOs are so overpaid, why don't just become one and reap the rewards? Oh, because you can't - because they are exceptional talents, with exemplary educations, and the skills necessary to rise through the ranks of a massive organization to reach the pinnacle. All it takes to become an Ant is a car and 30 seconds to download an app.


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> No one implied that a degree guarantees a well-paying job. I posted that data to compare to what the average Ant is earning to help elucidate whether, in fact, the Ants are paid as poorly as some here would have you believe. I contended that an Ant with no real skills, no education, no need to even speak the dominant language, should not be as highly compensated as your average college grad, regardless of degree.
> 
> One of the most important skills one can possess is the ability to write concisely and cogently. Liberal arts graduates tend to excel in this regard.
> 
> ...


...most important skill to be a technology CEO is the ability be deceitful and unethical. That describes Travis Kalanick and his sucesssor Dara. LOL


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> ...most important skill to be a technology CEO is the ability be deceitful and unethical. That describes Travis Kalanick and his sucesssor Dara. LOL


So, if only you had the ability to be deceitful and unethical, you'd be the CEO of a $90B company? How are either of the fine gentlemen you mentioned deceitful or unethical? Let me guess, they dont pay the Ants enough? That brings me back to the whole point of this post.

Sure you and the other Ants may want more pay, but what is your basis for believing you deserve more pay?

To frame this discussion another way, what would be fair pay? What hourly/annual compensation is just for the job?


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> ...most important skill to be a technology CEO is the ability be deceitful and unethical. That describes Travis Kalanick and his sucesssor Dara. LOL


Or, as a college professor told me once: "Making mistakes is fine. It is expected. What's important is your learned ability to deflect and place blame on others."

.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

UberBastid said:


> Or, as a college professor told me once: "Making mistakes is fine. It is expected. What's important is your learned ability to deflect and place blame on others."
> 
> .


Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> Anyone living in NYC or SF, will definitley not be overpaid because the cost of living is so high and unaffordable.


Cities (mis)managed by liberal f*ups.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

What's wrong with this picture (from said article)?


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

ftupelo said:


> How are either of the fine gentlemen you mentioned deceitful or unethical?


Surely you can't be serious.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

_Tron_ said:


> Surely you can't be serious.


Dead. Like I said, I'm sure your positions stems directly from what you are paid. What would be fair pay in your mind?


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> So, if only you had the ability to be deceitful and unethical, you'd be the CEO of a $90B company? How are either of the fine gentlemen you mentioned deceitful or unethical? Let me guess, they dont pay the Ants enough? That brings me back to the whole point of this post.
> 
> Sure you and the other Ants may want more pay, but what is your basis for believing you deserve more pay?
> 
> To frame this discussion another way, what would be fair pay? What hourly/annual compensation is just for the job?


Bottom line, investor's money is being squandered and wasted. The CEO, Dara, has only slowed down the cash burn but have yet to produce a profit. And, Uber's only game plan is to take from the drivers and the restaurants in Uber Eats. Its true greed when a company takes 50-80% of the fare for running an app and providing commerical insurance for the ride (How much does it cost to run a server on a cloud?). The don't pay for any cars (leased or owned), anyone's gasoline or maintenance and yet they are unable to turn a profit. Any monkey can run a money losing company. You give away free rides and free food vouchers to customers with the investor's money and this has done nothing to lead to profitability. Uber's current share price has already priced in future non existent earnings.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> Bottom line, investor's money is being squandered and wasted. The CEO, Dara, has only slowed down the cash burn but have yet to produce a profit. And, Uber's only game plan is to take from the drivers and the restaurants in Uber Eats. Its true greed when a company takes 50-80% of the fare for running an app and providing commerical insurance for the ride (How much does it cost to run a server on a cloud?). The don't pay for any cars (leased or owned), anyone's gasoline or maintenance and yet they are unable to turn a profit. Any monkey can run a money losing company. You give away free rides and free food vouchers to customers with the investor's money and this has done nothing to lead to profitability. Uber's current share price has already priced in future non existent earnings.


You are entitled to your opinion, but you are Monday-morning quarterbacking at the same time. Management must decide where to allocate capital and have to do their best to understand what projects will work and which won't. It is also up to them to understand threats to the business (self-driving) and decide whether they will ignore the threats, or invest to stave them off. If they didn't invest in self-driving and the company when to zero when it ate their lunch, you would be calling them idiots for not recognizing the threat and investing accordingly.

Where do you get the 50-80% figure? Take rate on mobility is public information and most recently was 21.5% exUK which is relatively inline with historicals and much different than the 50-80% you suggest. Including UK it was only 12.6%.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

@Gone_in_60_seconds Whether you believe they had done an adequate job positioning the company and allocating capital, has nothing to do with ethics or deceit. We can sit here all day and argue about how well they have operated strategically, but I'm still interested in why you believe they have been deceitful or unethical.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

Ok 2 questions on the ants est of $17 an hour. what is he paying into sss- workmans comp. and self employment taxes and city taxes. i do a different platform. your numbers are wrong. wont debate why or how. are you a driver. if so whats your per hour rate. i know mine after fuel-tax- all expenses.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

bobby747 said:


> Ok 2 questions on the ants est of $17 an hour. what is he paying into sss- workmans comp. and self employment taxes and city taxes. i do a different platform. your numbers are wrong. wont debate why or how. are you a driver. if so whats your per hour rate. i know mine after fuel-tax- all expenses.


The study does not take taxes into account, however, I do believe there is relatively favorable tax incentives for Ants (ie. $0.56/mile is much higher than actual costs). Everyone pays taxes, so I think figuring taxes is not too meaningful and distracts from the larger point. Other than taxes, why not explain why their assumptions are wrong?

Yes, I drive part-time and only Lux, so my metrics are not too meaningful to the larger discussion. 

What is your gross hourly average income?


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

$57.15 hr. City tax. And all expenses. About 1k partime do the math for gross hours.
You guys are so book smart. The ant does 10 years uber has no sss. Do that math.
I am 7 years in all platforms in my city done. 21k rides . Ready to retire soon.


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

bobby747 said:


> $57.15 hr. City tax. And all expenses. About 1k partime do the math for gross hours.
> You guys are so book smart. The ant does 10 years uber has no sss. Do that math.
> I am 7 years in all platforms in my city done. 21k rides . Ready to retire soon.


Is that hourly earning on Uber X, Comfort, XL, Lux, or Black?


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

X xl wav...
Hey gone think the border will open soon in Montreal. I heard 31st. Pax. Told me mid August. We want to go thier early sept 7 to 10 days
Been to Toronto a few times.
Oh comfort too. Be at this 7 years. It is not easy. I owe government every year no way around it. I dont do 1000 miles a week


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

bobby747 said:


> X xl wav...
> Hey gone think the border will open soon in Montreal. I heard 31st. Pax. Told me mid August. We want to go thier early sept 7 to 10 days
> Been to Toronto a few times.
> Oh comfort too. Be at this 7 years. It is not easy. I owe government every year no way around it. I dont do 1000 miles a week


What city do you work and you are saying you gross $57.15/hr?


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

I am not going to give out anymore details you see here guys are working 7 days a week 150 rides for 3k weekly ..figure it out. Dont care about who believes or dont. 
This site is toast on posting income on.
Telling anyone what I made was stupid I am pushing 60 IDFAF. but my expenses are high.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

bobby747 said:


> I am not going to give out anymore details you see here guys are working 7 days a week 150 rides for 3k weekly ..figure it out. Dont care about who believes or dont.
> This site is toast on posting income on.
> Telling anyone what I made was stupid I am pushing 60 IDFAF. but my expenses are high.


You act like it's some guarded state secret. Either way, it's one datapoint vs. the entire 136-page empirical study.


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

And where is the valuation of risk in this study?

Ant wipes out his car and is in the hospital for three months with a broken leg with no workers comp, no disability, and a totaled car with $2500 deductuble? What's the monetary value of that?

Ant gets carjacked and stabbed in the face? Monetary value of that?

Ant gets his car puked in but smell never comes out?

What is the value lost to employer Social Security contributions? Supplemental rideshare insurance riders? Workers comp? Death and disability insurance?

What is the value lost to wear and tear on vehicles due to the real world nature of rideshare?

They probably just assumed 1,000 miles of rideshare is exactly the same as 1,000 miles of touring Nantucket? People with no real world common sense (e.g. academics) believe this.

But most importantly, the free market says otherwise. Any occupation that overcompensates would be overrun with applicants to the point of almost zero turnover and lines out the door for any position that opens (as actually happens with union janitors in NYC).

Why does Uber have to spend one penny on advertising for drivers if said postions are overpaid?

Why is turnover so high for drivers? Because people hate easy money and being overpaid? Sure, whatever.

Your confirmation bias has gotten the better of you, Frankie. This is your blind spot, which is typical for most quants. You think all risk can be identified and quantified to a numeric value (if you bother to value it at all). But the real world it doesn't care what your numbers say, because the real world bats last.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

Johnny I could not have said it better. Why does he need my income. ?? First science...


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> And where is the valuation of risk in this study?
> 
> Ant wipes out his car and is in the hospital for three months with a broken leg with no workers comp, no disability, and a totaled car with $2500 deductuble? What's the monetary value of that?
> 
> ...


A lot of good points here. I think workers comp is the biggest issue and it can be obtained through private insurers. How much do these things deduct hourly is the big question. A full time ant likely drives 2,000 or so hours a year, so for each $2,000 in expenses, you can deduct $1/hr. You also have to figure in benefits of things like flexibility of work hours. 

I disagree with the second half of your post. I can't count the number of posts here, pre-covid, complaining about the excess supply of Ants. Covid combined with government incentives obviously turned that on its head. UBER and Lyft are now advertising to replenish all the lost drivers due to Covid. Turnover may be high, but I don't know how high it is relative to other low-skill positions, which is key. 

I'm reporting what was found in the study and agreeing with the methodology. Is it perfect? No. Is it possible to put a dollar amount on every factor, good or bad? No. What is important is did they capture all of the primary drivers of income and costs and did they analyze it in a way that made sense? If so, this gives you a pretty good idea of income. I believe their methodology is the best I have seen on the subject. I'd be more than happy to look at other analysis.


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Covid combined with government incentives obviously turned that on its head.


Great examples of unknown and unquantifiable risks. A quote from page 64 of the study...

"_Decomposition of P1: We would have liked to have spent more time handling the subtleties of P1 across time of day, but because of COVID, we found ourselves constrained. We plan to explore this topic in a subsequent report._"

What is the monetary loss value of a COVID infection of a driver? A COVID fatality? An infected family member? What is the risk premium required to get drivers to drive despite risks of COVID?

These are not quantifiable today, much less two years ago before COVID even existed.

How would you quantify the risk if a new variant appears that evades vaccine anti-bodies?

Are ants overcompensated relative to drivers that are getting UI plus $300/wk to sit home until September?

Researchers have to use the data they have, not the data they want. So I guess I have to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume there is no conflict of interest.

Oh but wait, I didn't see any conflict of interest disclosures in the study, so how do I know that any person on the research team hasn't gotten job offers or grants from Uber, Lyft, or any other gig company?

"Hey boys, we at Uber are funding a study to see just how good our drivers have got it. But first, let's all meet for dinner at Ruth's Chris to discuss parameters. Who's interested?"

But you know how that works better than us, don't you?


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Les Ants,
> 
> I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.
> 
> ...


Yep.

I am an overpaid food delivery driver.

Took a while to figure out the best apps, region, strategy and tactics.

I care about expenses. Thus I calculate my profitability by dollars per mile, not dollars per hour. So, excluding wait time is not a problem for me.

Disregarding taxes seems to be a problem. Seems every single financial decision made my small businesses and large corporations focus on tax consequences. I understand why the authors did not include tax calculations; too much time spent digging into city, county and state regulations. Either lazy or money constraints.

By the way, drivers are required to provide expensive equipment not required by college graduates for W2 employment.

Plus, I am not carrying tens of thousands of dollars of student debt to get a low paying, entry level job.

Also, gig app workers are actually small businesses.

How many small business owners actually calculate their profit based on hours spent at the cash register?

At the end of the day, it is income, minus expenses, plus or minus tax ramifications.

Seems to me that the studies mentioned are useless and misdirected.

Trying to calculate gig app workers hourly rates compared to W2 jobs may have provided some with grant money, but the conclusions of the long winded paper seems ridiculous.

What is next, articles comparing plumbing or electrical contractors hourly profits compared to liberal arts graduates working in fast food restaurants because they can not find jobs in their field?

Seems to me the studies were a senseless use of trees and bandwidth.


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## AvisDeene (Jun 7, 2019)

Do we have access to the information that Uber and Lyft have provided? How do we know that they didn't cherry pick the information so the study would give the results that they wanted?

Why shouldn't the drivers be paid well? Without the driver, there would be no Uber or Lyft.

Not having to go to college is not a justification for drivers to have lower pay than college graduates. Drivers have immense responsibilities that they are burdened with, mainly operating a vehicle and transporting their customers to their destination as safely as possible. Are you saying that the lives of the drivers and passengers aren't worth as much as they are being paid currently?


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.


So,

You are denigrating teachers,

While hyping a study by college students directed by teachers?


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

I own my business many private rides too. Your math is tiring. To much college. 
Full time ant 2000 hours per year. 
Well let's try basic math avg full time uber ant 70 hours a week x 50 weeks = 3500 hours per year.
50 hours is 2500. Full time guys over work themselves in this business. I was that guy 4 years ago


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Les Ants,
> 
> I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.
> 
> ...


Seems a misdirected study comparing apples and oranges.

Guessing a lot of grant money involved while no one involved was actually involved in day to day realities.

First off, seems nobody involved actually transported people or food.

Second off, paper prepared by students, not yet in the W2 environment.

Finally, who are you, and why are you hyping this paper?


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> You act like it's some guarded state secret. Either way, it's one datapoint vs. the entire 136-page empirical study.


Lotta drivers earn outside the average and the mean.

A 136 page study without any authors mixing it up on the streets. Who gonna give it credence?

A useless paper, but guessing some academic department got paid a lot of money for a faulty statistical analysis.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

I appreciate the lively discussion, but no one has fully addressed the thrust of the paper. If anyone believes the numbers are wrong, why? The numbers look pretty right to me using back of the envelope numbers. I can average $30/hr gross, so suggesting $7/hr of expenses is not absurd. Just because it was done by academics, or students, or non-drivers, or using Uber or Lyfts data, does not make it wrong.

Ive admitted it’s not perfect, but directionally this is the most rigorous and logical analysis I’ve seen.

Further, since I believe the number is reasonably close, I’m asking why the Ants believe they are underpaid. If a college grad is making $40k annually, an Ant making $40k annually does not scream underpaid to me.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The study did not explicitly address DEAD MILES that accrue on the job. Many drivers drive a around empty a fair bit, or are staging their vehicle in a particular spot after a ride.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> The study did not explicitly address DEAD MILES that accrue on the job. Many drivers drive a around empty a fair bit, or are staging their vehicle in a particular spot after a ride.


Sure, but the only incremental cost is some gas. Plus, the ant can write those miles off at $0.56/mile. If your vehicle gets 20 mph and gas is $3/gallon, the incremental cost is $0.15, so you are netting $0.41 per dead mile. Sure there is some depreciation - anyone know what a car depreciates on average per mile?

I just did the math using Carmax on a 2012 civic looking at the difference in value between 60k miles and 120k. Comes out to $0.05/mile. So, you are netting $0.36 that you can write off against income for each dead mile.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

are those studies comparing RS to a real career job?

Is that even possible?


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## Illini (Mar 14, 2019)

Skills?? That's the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me.


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> but no one has fully addressed the thrust of the paper. If anyone believes the numbers are wrong, why?


What I don't understand is what YOUR thrust is, Frankie. If Uber drivers are overpaid, then Dara has a fiduciary responsibility to the stakeholders to cut driver pay to market level, does he not?

So go for it, Uber. Cut driver pay 10%-20% and investors will be rolling in profits.

Just...do it!!!






But they won't. 

Do you know why? Because Uber knows the numbers in this study are fake, and their compensation rates and driver numbers show it.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

The thrust was two parts. 1. Do you agree with the earnings conclusion and there fore the methodology and 2. Assuming the earning numbers are correct, are Ants overpaid.

Uber has been cutting driver pay over the years. Again, Covid threw a wrench into everything. When things normalize, will UBER look to cut pay again? Have you already forgotten the ubiquitous too many ants posts pre-Covid?

My third question was if Ants are underpaid as everyone complains, what sort of salary should this profession commmand?


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Les Ants,
> 
> I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.
> 
> ...


I'm gonna check out this "study" and see which market was used and what time period (Covid or pre-Covid)

I'm gonna check it out of curiosity by I don't need to check it to know that if the numbers you posted ($23 per hour after expenses) are what the study claims, it's a total lie, PERIOD.

Common sense dictates that's a total lie.

There's no way in hell that a job that pays that kind of money AND provides flexible hours would ever have a horrendous 98% yearly turnover rate. NO FREAKING WAY.

$23 per hour AFTER expenses is good money, and when coupled with flexible hours makes a winning combination that people would flock to and STAY.

But Uber can't keep drivers for more than a few months.

Either your numbers are bogus and/or the study is bogus.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> I'm gonna check out this "study" and see which market was used and what time period (Covid or pre-Covid)
> 
> I'm gonna check it out of curiosity by I don't need to check it to know that if the numbers you posted ($23 per hour after expenses) are what the study claims, it's a total lie, PERIOD.
> 
> ...


The study was done in Seattle. The study also notes that 85% of drivers are part-time. If 85% are doing it on the side, it’s not surprising turnover is so high. Also it take very little effort to start or quit. Traditional jobs have many more frictions in that regard, which reduces turnover.

For all the folks calling it BS, why don’t you post your own calculation, assuming you’ve done it.


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## AvisDeene (Jun 7, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> The study was done in Seattle. The study also notes that 85% of drivers are part-time. If 85% are doing it on the side, it’s not surprising turnover is so high. Also it take very little effort to start or quit. Traditional jobs have many more frictions in that regard, which reduces turnover.
> 
> For all the folks calling it BS, why don’t you post your own calculation, assuming you’ve done it.


Why was Seattle chosen? Why didn’t they base the study on Cleveland, Detroit, Memphis, Dallas or Miami instead?


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## Ian Richard Markham (Jan 13, 2019)

I always felt like Uber was paying me more than the minimum I would be happy with. No one ever does what I say but I tried to tell you ants that Uber rains gold down upon your undeserving little head if you woumd just stay on the clock the entire 12 hours. I was stacked with rides that last hour and always ended fairly and surprisingly close to home. But let’s be honest in that when you live in down town everything is already close and anything that’s not close desperately wishis it were close. Really there would be nights when I hadn’t made enough to even have two wooden buffalo nickels to rub together for warmth and then those last two hours so like from the end of my 9th hour until quitting time was just like, here, surge, gold, yours, money, good job, more money. That’s how I pulled down $580 in one night a few times but it’s impossible to say anything on here without sounding pretentious and y’all think I’m an asshole which is true but y’all think that’s reson enough not to listen.

Oh my god I can’t believe I’m saying this again but if you ants don’t go look up the thread by yours truly entitled, “Three days in april” or “Three days in Avril” and start doing that I’m going to have a meltdown of some sort. DO IT NOW!


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

_Tron_ said:


> Surely you can't be serious.


I am serious... and stop calling me Shirley! #Airplane


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

_Tron_ said:


> Surely you can't be serious.


Why are calling him Shirley? (ok bad Airplane joke but couldn't resist)


ftupelo said:


> but I'm still interested in why you believe they have been deceitful and unethical


2 examples of each.
Deceitful

Lower rates = more money: The spin communication for rate cuts that would result in "more money for drivers".

You asked for more predictable income and we listened: The spin communication for eliminating the multiplier surge and replacing it with a flat surge "so drivers could more easily calculate their earnings".
Unethical
Guess it's a personal judgement on what is unethical.

Drivers in California can set their own rates: Gone quickly after AB5 passage. Classic bait and switch.
Uber is merely a "payment processor": Outright lie the IRS let's them get away with.



ftupelo said:


> Everyone pays taxes, so I think figuring taxes is not too meaningful and distracts from the larger poin


As a Financial adviser you know the old saying, "It's not what you make it's what you keep". Net is extremely meaningful.


Judge and Jury said:


> I care about expenses. Thus I calculate my profitability by dollars per mile, not dollars per hour. So, excluding wait time is not a problem for me.


Smart, very smart. For years I advocated keeping a spreadsheet and focusing on Revenue per Mile instead of per hour. I used to get pummeled on here for that and finally gave up mentioning it. Every smart businessman knows that is the key to understanding profits and developing a good operating strategy.


----------



## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> I am serious... and stop calling me Shirley! #Airplane


We posted the same thing simultaneously!


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Seamus said:


> Why are calling him Shirley? (ok bad Airplane joke but couldn't resist)
> 
> 2 examples of each.
> Deceitful
> ...


I appreciate the response. If those examples are the worst of UBER's infractions, I don't know that I would peg them as particularly deceitful or unethical. Some of them are debateable. For instance, the last pay adjustment that the Ants here proclaimed as a pay cut was actually an increase for any ride that averages less than 23mph, which is the vast majority. The Ants don't care about facts though, it's more fun to come on here and complain.

Everyone's tax situation is vastly different, so applying a blank assumption makes no sense. I also provided college grad salaries that are not net of taxes, so I am still comparing apples to apples. 

I think tracking income per mile and per hour makes sense. If one is working many hours just sitting around, the per mile doesn't capture that. You could have a great per mile but need to be online for 16 hours a day to make it. Most comparable jobs also pay hourly, so it's helpful for comparing across opportunities.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> If one is working many hours just sitting around, the per mile doesn't capture that. You could have a great per mile but need to be online for 16 hours a day to make it.


And thus the huge gap in the needs of part time supplemental income folks and full timers. I supplement income and only work prime time busy hours so the revenue per mile is strategically important to figure out the best cherry picking strategies in a busy market. Full timers must work slower hours as well and face more pressure to take lower offers however self defeating that may be to profitability. This is no different from any business deciding wether or not to sacrifice margin for volume.


ftupelo said:


> If those examples are the worst of UBER's infractions,


Didn't say they were the worst, just provided examples.


ftupelo said:


> I think tracking income per mile and per hour makes sense.


I agree tracking BOTH makes sense. The problem is that most only track hourly and miss out on great data that can give actionable strategy.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Seamus said:


> Didn't say they were the worst, just provided examples.


Feel free to provide examples of their most egregious behaviors. My issue is most folks perpetuate this big bad corporation myth when it comes to UBER instead of providing substantive information to work with - like in this thread. Lots of claims that the study is wrong, but no good explanations for why. Also lots of claims that drivers are underpaid, but no good explanations for why.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> Feel free to provide examples of their most egregious behaviors. My issue is most folks perpetuate this big bad corporation myth when it comes to UBER instead of providing substantive information to work with - like in this thread. Lots of claims that the study is wrong, but no good explanations for why. Also lots of claims that drivers are underpaid, but no good explanations for why.


Maybe a helpful analog would be a comparison to what other drivers make in other industries. What do full-time drivers make in similar industries? My point was that if you are making the same as many college grads, maybe you aren't underpaid, maybe you just want more.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Feel free to provide examples of their most egregious behaviors.



*Withholding non-controversial information from the driver -* I should be able to check beyond a passengers rating, but also know how long the account has been active, and how many rides, how many 'incident reports' this user has on their record. It would also be nice to see the % of rides that each passenger account tips. Uber/Lyft's default position is to withhold information from the driver, even if that information is trivial. This is EGREGIOUS if they want to call us 'independant contractors.'
*Hiding Buttons and Features as a mindgame - *Going Offline requires a submenu and an extra tap, to discourage drivers from flipping apps.
*Only 2 Destination Mode active per day -* It's called "RIDE SHARING" which means I should always be able to pick where I'm heading and only take passengers in that direction.
*Obfuscating information -* As an independant contractor, I should get all the information on the ping screen. Pick Up distance/time; Total Ride Distance/Time; Approximate payment amount.
*Penalizing cancels -* My car, my choice. I should not be penalized for cancelling, unless the algorithm picks up that a driver is doing so by race or religion or gender. Lyft nags their driver pool all the time, just to screw with them with a 'sword of damacles' deactivation implied. This is employee abuse.
*Hiding why I was downrated, or information on passenger complaints - * While passenger and driver privacy is paramount, drivers should know the basic details of why they were 1*'d or account-suspended, so they can improve, or at least register a case for a false complaint.
*More Transparent deactivation investigations -* Into impaired driving complaints, sexual innappropriateness. It should not be a 'Kafka-esque nightmare' why you have been deplatformed. But Uber and Lyft make it so.
*Customer Support Representatives - *These Uber employees are so un-empowered that they are almost 100% useless at most problems. Combined with the fact that they are not even located on the continent which they service, they have trouble even making a report for escalation. It's like UBER just wants the illusion of driver support without actually bothering to do it well.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

Its so funny all this bullshit to prove what. i will sum it up rideshare(AKA REAL TAXI) 
DRIVER must have a car-insurance- clean car- inspected car- proper year car- gas in his gas tank- cash in his pocket for tire repairs-tolls- risk of being hurt or knock off the job due to an accident.
you defend these companys when you dont drive . you dont see thier rake%% they take, so you dont really know. your guessing.
now ant A - has all of this for what $17 an hour. no sss- no workmans comp if he breaks his arm.
ant B works 40 hours at burger world- brings nothing to work earns $15 an hour. complete


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

bobby747 said:


> Its so funny all this bullshit to prove what. i will sum it up rideshare(AKA REAL TAXI)
> DRIVER must have a car-insurance- clean car- inspected car- proper year car- gas in his gas tank- cash in his pocket for tire repairs-tolls- risk of being hurt or knock off the job due to an accident.
> you defend these companys when you dont drive . you dont see thier rake%% they take, so you dont really know. your guessing.
> now ant A - has all of this for what $17 an hour. no sss- no workmans comp if he breaks his arm.
> ant B works 40 hours at burger world- brings nothing to work earns $15 an hour. complete


Their rake %, as you call it, is public information that is updated quarterly. Sure you can claim it is fudged, but that is a baseless claim and I doubt they would be committing fraud to provide a fake number.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Their rake %, as you call it, is public information that is updated quarterly. Sure you can claim it is fudged, but that is a baseless claim and I doubt they would be committing fraud to provide a fake number.


You fail to grasp the INFORMATIONAL ASYMMETRY that UBER/LYFT take advantage of to keep their drivers 'anting' on low-information. It's a form of control, bordering on abuse, because it is passive-agressive, and fundamentally dishonest: 

Basically, it is vile. 

If you want happy workers, empower them. If you want indentured servitude, your employees (ahem, contractors) will hate you. Worse, they will slowly provide worse and worse service to the platforms customers, because of a perceived injustice, and that will destroy the reputation of the service. I believe the classic phrase is: Sabotage.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> *Withholding non-controversial information from the driver -* I should be able to check beyond a passengers rating, but also know how long the account has been active, and how many rides, how many 'incident reports' this user has on their record. It would also be nice to see the % of rides that each passenger account tips. Uber/Lyft's default position is to withhold information from the driver, even if that information is trivial. This is EGREGIOUS if they want to call us 'independant contractors.'
> *Hiding Buttons and Features as a mindgame - *Going Offline requires a submenu and an extra tap, to discourage drivers from flipping apps.
> *Only 2 Destination Mode active per day -* It's called "RIDE SHARING" which means I should always be able to pick where I'm heading and only take passengers in that direction.
> *Obfuscating information -* As an independant contractor, I sould get all the information on the ping screen. Pick Up distance/time; Total Ride Distance/Time; Approximate payment amount.
> ...


Again, these are all things that you may like or want, but not sure any rise to the level of deceit or immoral. Everyone complains about their job. How many people have an absolutely perfect job, where they receive anything their mind could imagine?


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Again, these are all things that you may like or want, but not sure any rise to the level of deceit or immoral. Everyone complains about their job. How many people have an absolutely perfect job, where they receive anything their mind could imagine?


If that is your glib answer, then we are done here. I gave you serious issues, and you dismiss them all in 3 sentences? Sheesh.
The above are simply the 'withholds' by the platforms.
There are things the platforms could do to make their driver pool very happy with the job, and probably offer better customer service to the core customer base. I outlined them here some years ago: 5 Features For The LYFT/UBER App That Would Enhance Both...

Few have been considered or seriously implemented. Lyft/Uber have put most of their energy into disempowering the drivers, and paying them less, while pocketing more for their shareholders, after their respective IPOs.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> If that is your glib answer, then we are done here. My lord.


It's not glib, it's reality. I understand those are all things you would like to see changed. My point is that in any job, you have to deal with circumstances that are not to your liking. This is not peculiar to UBER or Lyft.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> It's not glib, it's reality. I understand those are all things you would like to see changed. My point is that in any job, you have to deal with circumstances that are not to your liking. This is not peculiar to UBER or Lyft.


I understand what you are saying, but to whole-cloth dismiss my eariler points is both facile and insulting. You are not engaging in conversation, you are whimsically waving your hand like an boorish-aristocrat. This is a discussion board, and you are making broad proclaimations.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Seamus said:


> Smart, very smart. For years I advocated keeping a spreadsheet and focusing on Revenue per Mile instead of per hour. I used to get pummeled on here for that and finally gave up mentioning it. Every smart businessman knows that is the key to understanding profits and developing a good operating strategy.


There's no perfect metric, but for "gig" worker drivers, dollars per hour is the best all-around metric for determining whether or not it's worth doing this job.

Time is money as the cliche says, but time also has value in other ways as well, such as time spent with my family, and if I'm gonna sacrifice family time for this job, I expect the dollars to be worth the sacrifice. Uber NEVER wants drivers to focus on time. They want drivers to focus on a DOLLAR NUMBER per shift and per week.

Relying on dollars per mile (basically you're referring to profit margins) to tell us whether or not this job is worth doing is too limiting and misleading to be a good overall indicator.

Dollars per mile as a metric has its place as PART of the overall picture, but by itself it doesn't tell the whole story. Dollars per hour, which factors in dollars per mile comes much closer to telling the whole story.

In other words, a poor dollars per hour metric will usually be reflected in poor dollars per hour, but high dollars per mile doesn't necessarily equate to high dollars per hour.

A driver crawling his way thru DC gridlock may be operating at high dollars per mile and a high profit margin but end up with very poor earnings due to the LACK of miles driven. His hourly rate will be LOW in spite of high dollars per mile and high profit margin.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Again, these are all things that you may like or want, but not sure any rise to the level of deceit or immoral. Everyone complains about their job. How many people have an absolutely perfect job, where they receive anything their mind could imagine?


You fail to see that, often, the designers and overlords at LYFT/UBER seem to be ACTIVELY AT WAR with their own driver pool. It's no way to run a serious business if you value customer satisfaction. It might be out of date a bit, but read _*"UBERLAND"*_ by Alex Rosenblat if you wish to know more on this.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I understand what you are saying, but to whole-cloth dismiss my eariler points is both facile and insulting. You are not engaging in conversation, you are whimsically waving your hand like an boorish-aristocrat. This is a discussion board, and you are making broad proclaimations.


I'm about to pitch an $8.4mm deal, so I'm preparing for that and don't have the time to address each point individually at the moment.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> I'm about to pitch an $8.4mm deal, so I'm preparing for that and don't have the time to address each point individually at the moment.


Then don't respond at all. Wait until you have time, instead of an undisclosed glib dismissal. Clearly you have enough time to pop 3 or 4 responses, instantly.
If you are working on your millimeter-dollar  deal, then don't waste your time here.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

so why are you here??
we all are wasting good value of time with this guy. i need to hit ignore


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> The study was done in Seattle. The study also notes that 85% of drivers are part-time. If 85% are doing it on the side, it’s not surprising turnover is so high. Also it take very little effort to start or quit. Traditional jobs have many more frictions in that regard, which reduces turnover.
> 
> For all the folks calling it BS, why don’t you post your own calculation, assuming you’ve done it.


So they picked Seattle, which by sheer coincidence is in the top three in Per Mile rate in the US at $1.18 per mile.

Funny thing they didn't pick one of the zillions of markets that pay less than 55 cents per mile.

That 85% number is also misleading, because I remember reading that a highly disproportionate number of daily trips are being done by FULL TIME drivers.

And even at $1.18 per mile I don't believe for a second that the average ant is netting $23 per hour after expenses. No way.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> There's no perfect metric, but for "gig" worker drivers, dollars per hour is the best all-around metric for determining whether or not it's worth doing this job.
> 
> Time is money as the cliche says, but time also has value in other ways as well, such as time spent with my family, and if I'm gonna sacrifice family time for this job, I expect the dollars to be worth the sacrifice. Uber NEVER wants drivers to focus on time. They want drivers to focus on a DOLLAR NUMBER per shift and per week.
> 
> ...


Hence, why I believe in tracking both. As stated in post #49:

_I agree tracking BOTH makes sense. The problem is that most only track hourly and miss out on great data that can give actionable strategy._


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> So they picked Seattle, which by sheer coincidence is in the top three in Per Mile rate in the US at $1.18 per mile.



This is exactly the soft-point that the New York Times was making with its criticism of this study. When the 'thing being studied' is also the 'gatekeeper' of the data, and has huge incentives to 'put its reputation in the best possible light' then CHERRY PICKING is gonna happen.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> If 85% are doing it on the side, it’s not surprising turnover is so high. Also it take very little effort to start or quit. Traditional jobs have many more frictions in that regard, which reduces turnover.


Your lame attempt to explain why 98% of Uber drivers choose to run away from a job that nets them $23 per hour and flexible hours doesn't wash.

Employees, especially part timers don't have to exert any "effort" to quit their jobs, nor do they experience much "friction" in doing so.

The difference between employers and gig companies is that employers fire their workers much less often than gig companies. Firing employees raises Unemployment Insurance premiums.

Gig companies on the other hand can fire all the drivers they want and it costs them virtually nothing.

That's the difference.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> This is exactly the soft-point that the New York Times was making with its criticism of this study. When the 'thing being studied' is also the 'gatekeeper' of the data, and has huge incentives to 'put its reputation in the best possible light' then CHERRY PICKING is gonna happen.


A gatekeeper who also happens to be a pathological liar.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Seamus said:


> Why are calling him Shirley? (ok bad Airplane joke but couldn't resist)


That is precisely the joke I was trying to pull off (along with finding his assertion incredulous)


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Then don't respond at all. Wait until you have time, instead of an undisclosed glib dismissal. Clearly you have enough time to pop 3 or 4 responses, instantly.
> If you are working on your millimeter-dollar  deal, then don't waste your time here.


My pitch to our investment committee went swimmingly - they can smell my deal structuring prowess since I reek of it. Term sheet to go out tonight. Anyways, I'm back and will try to respond substantivly.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> You fail to see that, often, the designers and overlords at LYFT/UBER seem to be ACTIVELY AT WAR with their own driver pool. It's no way to run a serious business if you value customer satisfaction.


These gig companies operate 180 degrees opposite of what Richard Branson famously preaches, which is that by putting your workers first, they will take good care of your clients.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> You fail to grasp the INFORMATIONAL ASYMMETRY that UBER/LYFT take advantage of to keep their drivers 'anting' on low-information. It's a form of control, bordering on abuse, because it is passive-agressive, and fundamentally dishonest:
> 
> Basically, it is vile.
> 
> If you want happy workers, empower them. If you want indentured servitude, your employees (ahem, contractors) will hate you. Worse, they will slowly provide worse and worse service to the platforms customers, because of a perceived injustice, and that will destroy the reputation of the service. I believe the classic phrase is: Sabotage.


I totally get it. I Ant, so I understand the level of information provided through the app and I agree the enhanced transparency initiatives you proposed would be nice to have. What you have to keep in mind is the relative attractiveness to other job opportunities. Would you rather make $15/hr at the BMW factory in South Carolina stamping out 1,000 door panels a day? They don't think about information asymmetry because they receive no information at all - they stand in front of a machine all day every day doing the same mind-numbing motions.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> If that is your glib answer, then we are done here. I gave you serious issues, and you dismiss them all in 3 sentences? Sheesh.
> The above are simply the 'withholds' by the platforms.
> There are things the platforms could do to make their driver pool very happy with the job, and probably offer better customer service to the core customer base. I outlined them here some years ago: 5 Features For The LYFT/UBER App That Would Enhance Both...
> 
> Few have been considered or seriously implemented. Lyft/Uber have put most of their energy into disempowering the drivers, and paying them less, while pocketing more for their shareholders, after their respective IPOs.


Assume they took your recommendations and made the job more pleasant. How would that affect turnover and overall supply of Ants? Pre-Covid, every other post on here discussed the over-supply of Ants. Would you rather see your changes implemented and deal with higher competition and lower earnings, or the opposite?


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> There's no perfect metric, but for "gig" worker drivers, dollars per hour is the best all-around metric for determining whether or not it's worth doing this job.
> 
> Time is money as the cliche says, but time also has value in other ways as well, such as time spent with my family, and if I'm gonna sacrifice family time for this job, I expect the dollars to be worth the sacrifice. Uber NEVER wants drivers to focus on time. They want drivers to focus on a DOLLAR NUMBER per shift and per week.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this detailed response. This is what I was referring to when I stated that both metrics should be tracked, but I did not have the time to double-click on it like you did.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> These gig companies operate 180 degrees opposite of what Richard Branson famously preaches, which is that by putting your workers first, they will take good care of your clients.


This is important in a true service business. I don't think most Pax are coming to UBER or Lyft for the customer service. They care about price and a minimum level of customer service and cleanliness. I am the biggest advocate on these boards for providing impeccable levels of customer service.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> You fail to see that, often, the designers and overlords at LYFT/UBER seem to be ACTIVELY AT WAR with their own driver pool. It's no way to run a serious business if you value customer satisfaction. It might be out of date a bit, but read _*"UBERLAND"*_ by Alex Rosenblat if you wish to know more on this.


I disagree with this characterization. I am well aware of the psychological tricks used within the app to achieve their desired goals, yet fail to see it rising to the level of malice or scienter.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

bobby747 said:


> so why are you here??
> we all are wasting good value of time with this guy. i need to hit ignore


I'm here because I Ant like the rest of you. Just because I'm a multi-millionaire doesn't mean certain aspects of the job don't appeal to me.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> So they picked Seattle, which by sheer coincidence is in the top three in Per Mile rate in the US at $1.18 per mile.
> 
> Funny thing they didn't pick one of the zillions of markets that pay less than 55 cents per mile.
> 
> ...


On average, what do you gross per hour over how many miles. Answer those, and we can do a back of the envelope calculation that should get us very directionally close to the fully-baked net.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Your lame attempt to explain why 98% of Uber drivers choose to run away from a job that nets them $23 per hour and flexible hours doesn't wash.
> 
> Employees, especially part timers don't have to exert any "effort" to quit their jobs, nor do they experience much "friction" in doing so.
> 
> ...


Gig companies don't really fire any contractors. Sure they may deactivate you for serious violations, but that is, for the most part, on the Ant. The only folks that are associate with UBER that have been fired, in the truest sense of the word are those at corporate headquarters. Ants aren't subject to random RIF's.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> If a college grad is making $40k annually, an Ant making $40k annually does not scream underpaid to me.


This makes sense to me. The career guy (or gal) invests in education, and brings that to the market. A rideshare driver provides the means of production in their work (the car), and some "I guess" less skilled labor. The Seattle economy seems to value both about the same. But a note about rideshare driving being a less skilled labor - driving LOOKS easy but is really a very complex exercise in the mind. And you kinda have to be really accurate. Go 2 feet out of your lane you might hit something. So I would argue that it's not as unskilled as people think. The things you do are relatively straightforward (turn a wheel, press a brake or gas pedal, flip a switch) but the decision process is immense. I think it makes sense that a good driver is valued as much by the consumers of Seattle as is a college graduate. I drive college students around for a living - I love them - but they are green and they don't know real world shit - yet.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Ian Richard Markham said:


> I always felt like Uber was paying me more than the minimum I would be happy with. No one ever does what I say but I tried to tell you ants that Uber rains gold down upon your undeserving little head if you woumd just stay on the clock the entire 12 hours. I was stacked with rides that last hour and always ended fairly and surprisingly close to home. But let’s be honest in that when you live in down town everything is already close and anything that’s not close desperately wishis it were close. Really there would be nights when I hadn’t made enough to even have two wooden buffalo nickels to rub together for warmth and then those last two hours so like from the end of my 9th hour until quitting time was just like, here, surge, gold, yours, money, good job, more money. That’s how I pulled down $580 in one night a few times but it’s impossible to say anything on here without sounding pretentious and y’all think I’m an ***** which is true but y’all think that’s reson enough not to listen.
> 
> Oh my god I can’t believe I’m saying this again but if you ants don’t go look up the thread by yours truly entitled, “Three days in april” or “Three days in Avril” and start doing that I’m going to have a meltdown of some sort. DO IT NOW!


Ian its titled Three WEEKS in April (and Avril)... two different threads.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Assume they took your recommendations and made the job more pleasant. How would that affect turnover and overall supply of Ants? Pre-Covid, every other post on here discussed the over-supply of Ants. Would you rather see your changes implemented and deal with higher competition and lower earnings, or the opposite?


Strangely: I'd be fine with that. At least those that stuck around and made a go of it would not be treated like dirt. Disposable, sweepable, dirt.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Gig companies don't really fire any contractors. Sure they may deactivate you for serious violations, but that is, for the most part, on the Ant. The only folks that are associate with UBER that have been fired, in the truest sense of the word are those at corporate headquarters. Ants aren't subject to random RIF's.


Practicing this kind of semantics is not a good look. People use deactivated/fired/deplatformed interchanglable, and to not understand this is to not be using your noggin or not discussing in good faith.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Ted Fink said:


> This makes sense to me. The career guy (or gal) invests in education, and brings that to the market. A rideshare driver provides the means of production in their work (the car), and some "I guess" less skilled labor. The Seattle economy seems to value both about the same. But a note about rideshare driving being a less skilled labor - driving LOOKS easy but is really a very complex exercise in the mind. And you kinda have to be really accurate. Go 2 feet out of your lane you might hit something. So I would argue that it's not as unskilled as people think. The things you do are relatively straightforward (turn a wheel, press a brake or gas pedal, flip a switch) but the decision process is immense. I think it makes sense that a good driver is valued as much by the consumers of Seattle as is a college graduate. I drive college students around for a living - I love them - but they are green and they don't know real world shit - yet.


Agreed! If driving in urban environments was an 'unskilled' labour, then Self Driving Cars would have been here a decade ago.


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> I'm about to pitch an $8.4mm deal, so I'm preparing for that and don't have the time to address each point individually at the moment.


For an amount that low, you should have no problem closing the deal unless you're just completely over your head. Since you've posted over 30 times in the last 24 hours, maybe it's time for you to just stop posting for a day or two and focus.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> Gig companies don't really fire any contractors. Sure they may deactivate you for serious violations, but that is, for the most part, on the Ant.





Ted Fink said:


> This makes sense to me. The career guy (or gal) invests in education, and brings that to the market. A rideshare driver provides the means of production in their work (the car), and some "I guess" less skilled labor. The Seattle economy seems to value both about the same. But a note about rideshare driving being a less skilled labor - driving LOOKS easy but is really a very complex exercise in the mind. And you kinda have to be really accurate. Go 2 feet out of your lane you might hit something. So I would argue that it's not as unskilled as people think. The things you do are relatively straightforward (turn a wheel, press a brake or gas pedal, flip a switch) but the decision process is immense. I think it makes sense that a good driver is valued as much by the consumers of Seattle as is a college graduate. I drive college students around for a living - I love them - but they are green and they don't know real world shit - yet.


I don't know, they let 15.5yo kids start driving. Pretty much every adult in this country can drive unless they are severely disabled, physically or mentally. Driving may be a complex skill, but still one that almost everyone can accomplish.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Strangely: I'd be fine with that. At least those that stuck around and made a go of it would not be treated like dirt. Disposable, sweepable, dirt.


It would depend on your income. I doubt you'd drive for $12/hr just so you can have that type of transparency.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Practicing this kind of semantics is not a good look. People use deactivated/fired/deplatformed interchanglable, and to not understand this is to not be using your noggin or not discussing in good faith.


How many ants are "fired" without cause? I'm not arguing semantics, I'm arguing that Ants are never fired without cause. You cannot say the same for other hourly or salaried folks that may have been fired or let go due to Covid, or the financial wherewithal of their company, etc.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Agreed! If driving in urban environments was an 'unskilled' labour, then Self Driving Cars would have been here a decade ago.


It can be too complex for current tech/compute, but not too complex for even the dullest human brain. Just because something is too complex for technology, does not make it particularly complex for humans. 15.5yo humans in the lowest decile of IQ can still drive.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> For an amount that low, you should have no problem closing the deal unless you're just completely over your head. Since you've posted over 30 times in the last 24 hours, maybe it's time for you to just stop posting for a day or two and focus.


I consider posting here my charity work. This is my way of giving back to the community. If I didn't have the mind of a champion with the ability to multi-task with utmost agility, I'd tap the brakes on posting.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> I consider posting here my charity work. This is my way of giving back to the community. If I didn't have the mind of a champion with the ability to multi-task with utmost agility...


all of this is highly debatable.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> How many ants are "fired" without cause? I'm not arguing semantics, I'm arguing that Ants are never fired without cause. You cannot say the same for other hourly or salaried folks that may have been fired or let go due to Covid, or the financial wherewithal of their company, etc.


Simply Wow. You march to the beat of your own drum, sir.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> I don't know, they let 15.5yo kids start driving. Pretty much every adult in this country can drive unless they are severely disabled, physically or mentally. Driving may be a complex skill, but still one that almost everyone can accomplish.


We don’t let 16 year olds drive for Uber/Lyft for a reason.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Simply Wow. You march to the beat of your own drum, sir.


Look, I understand some Ants have had some troubles with falsified claims, but that is entirely different. When has UBER ever deactivated someone for no reason, whether true or false?



Kurt Halfyard said:


> We don’t let 16 year olds drive for Uber/Lyft for a reason.


Driving UBER may be very complex for you. Personally, driving is essentially second nature at this point. I don't compare my Gigabrain to self-driving technology.



Kurt Halfyard said:


> all of this is highly debatable.


They don't refer to me as Gigabrain for no reason. I wasn't accepted into and graduate from 3 of the finest institutions of higher learning that this country has to offer for no reason. I didn't receive 2 grad school fellowships for no reason. I didn't score in the 96th percentile on a standardized graduate school entrance exam (meaning I scored higher than 96% of college graduates, not the general population at large) for no reason.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Look, I understand some Ants have had some troubles with falsified claims, but that is entirely different. When has UBER ever deactivated someone for no reason, whether true or false?
> 
> 
> Driving UBER may be very complex for you. Personally, driving is essentially second nature at this point. I don't compare my Gigabrain to self-driving technology.
> ...


This is nonsense, and you know it. I know the feeling of disengenous debate. But go ahead, keep tooting your own horn.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> This is nonsense, and you know it. I know the feeling of disengenous debate. But go ahead, keep tooting your own horn.


Not a single bit is nonsense. My bona fides have been thoroughly vetted over the years.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> what sort of salary should this profession commmand?


salary? Are you using the word correctly? If used correctly salary would be zero. At best RS/gigs are an hourly gig (if that) A salary? no way.


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

Someone needs to contact Dara and let him know they're running short on overpaid drivers in Connecticut. 

Uber Driver Shortage Making Rideshares Harder | CTNewsJunkie


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> Someone needs to contact Dara and let him know they're running short on overpaid drivers in Connecticut.
> 
> Uber Driver Shortage Making Rideshares Harder | CTNewsJunkie


You know this is entirely the result of Covid and government response to it.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> You know this is entirely the result of Covid and government response to it.


no. It's PAU and SBA hands outs are to blame.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

ftupelo said:


> Sure, but the only incremental cost is some gas. Plus, the ant can write those miles off at $0.56/mile. If your vehicle gets 20 mph and gas is $3/gallon, the incremental cost is $0.15, so you are netting $0.41 per dead mile. Sure there is some depreciation - anyone know what a car depreciates on average per mile?
> 
> I just did the math using Carmax on a 2012 civic looking at the difference in value between 60k miles and 120k. Comes out to $0.05/mile. So, you are netting $0.36 that you can write off against income for each dead mile.


Writing off miles reduces taxable income by 56 cents it does not reduce tax by that much. Maybe ten cents. My actual car expenses are about 10 cents for gas per mile and another 25 cents per mile for repairs and the cost of replacing cars that age out of the system or must be replaced (based on my 5 years anting costs). My actual expense is therefore about 35 cents a mile. The deduction pays for gas but that is the smaller part of operating costs.

My 35 cent number is not based on depreciatoon tables but my actual receipts. I had assumed my costs were under 20 cents per mile until I actually tallied up everything. I think I am including in that number an auto accident and a $700 airport ticket and a $200 traffic ticket in there but I think those are fair to include. More driving means more mistakes. Perfect driving means less costs but who can drive perfectly? The average driver is going to have expenses like these. If I missed a pothole once I also might have saved myself few hundred also. If I was better at staying away from crazies maybe I wouldn't have had to replace my windshield when a person threw a stone through it too.

I am not sure it is fair to assume that the car cost is negligible because the driver would have a car anyway. If not for being an Uber driver I would probably just use my motorcycle for the most part and if I had a 4 wheel car I would probably stick with a 30 year old clunker and it would last me 10 years. No way I would buy a 10 year old or newer sedan or SUV except old cars are not allowed and putting 70000 miles a year on a car kills it fast.

I also don't agree with the insurance is negligible view.

My motorcycle insurance is also $75/yr, unlike my rideshare endorsement carrying insurance that is around $1K per year. I think I was paying $300 per year at my old company for my car pre-Uber but they did not allow rideshare drivers at all.

Also if we are considering dollars per hour, keep in mind you are not paid for a lot of the time you spend making your car presentable, such as cleaning the seats. Nor the time spent at the autoshop or repairing yout own car.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SHalester said:


> no. It's PAU and SBA hands outs are to blame.


Aren’t those government responses to Covid?


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Trafficat said:


> Writing off miles reduces taxable income by 56 cents it does not reduce tax by that much. Maybe ten cents. My actual car expenses are about 10 cents for gas per mile and another 25 cents per mile for repairs and the cost of replacing cars that age out of the system or must be replaced (based on my 5 years anting costs). My actual expense is therefore about 35 cents a mile. The deduction pays for gas but that is the smaller part of operating costs.
> 
> My 35 cent number is not based on depreciatoon tables but my actual receipts. I had assumed my costs were under 20 cents per mile until I actually tallied up everything.
> 
> ...


My calculation was similar for gas, but closer to $0.05 for mileage depreciation. I appreciate you sharing your specific situation, but most folks would own a vehicle and pay insurance on it regardless.

I know the $0.56/mile is an expense offset, but since it is more generous than actual expenses, I assume a good portion of the Ant income is offset to where they owe little income tax.


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> You know this is entirely the result of Covid and government response to it.


Yeah, so what?

Risk premium doesn't have to be paid when it's the result of government intervention or a _Force Majeure_ contagion?

Maybe you're in the "Covid will disappear like magic" camp. But a lot of smart money isn't.

We’ll Always Have Covid - WSJ

And, speaking of risk premium, if being an Uber driver is such a benign risk relative to compensation, why are Uber's insurance underwriters kissing them off?

I give credit to James River for being honest and saying they botched the risk assessment. If seasoned insurance pros can underestimate the risks, you might to consider that greenhorn academics can as well.

Why James River Insurance Dumped Uber Account (insurancejournal.com)

_Insurance is one of the largest expenses for ride-share companies, an issue that many analysts cite as a risk for the ride-share industry’s profitability.
“In Uber, we wrote a new type of risk that originally seemed to be highly profitable,” J. Adam Abram, James River executive chairman and chief executive officer, said in the Thursday call.
But the nature of that risk changed as Uber rapidly expanded into new regions, added tens of thousands of drivers, and moved into other business lines, Abram said. Uber’s businesses now include food delivery and freight.
“Candidly, in some years, we mispriced the risk,” Abram said._


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> the finest institutions of higher learning that this country has to offer.


I had no idea Dallas’s Paul Quinn College was so highly rated! Did you really find the curriculum challenging?


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

I have to admit I've developed a bizarre fascination with this thread.

It's like watching a man drown in a river and all the while he's mathematically proving to you that drowning is impossible because the river only has an average depth of 18 inches.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

Waste of my time. What's the rake% and miles per minute in Avalon n.j . This guy is a total waste. A forum member with a degree in million dollar contracts. But he is here too. GTFO. YOUR MOTIVES ARE not in the interest of anyone good


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> I have to admit I've developed a bizarre fascination with this thread.
> 
> It's like watching a man drown in a river and all the while he's mathematically proving to you that drowning is impossible because the river only has an average depth of 18 inches.


It’s been painful. I haven’t received much, if any, cogent analysis. Your point seems to be that the elevated pay is really compensating for a higher level of risk. But, it’s not clear what risk you are referring to.

You also admit that there were too many ants pre-Covid and that the current shortage is the direct result of Covid and or the government’s response. Despite admitting that, you also want to argue that the level of pay can’t possibly be above market or else there wouldn’t be a driver shortage.


----------



## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)




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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> I have to admit I've developed a bizarre fascination with this thread.
> 
> It's like watching a man drown in a river and all the while he's mathematically proving to you that drowning is impossible because the river only has an average depth of 18 inches.


This thread while entertaining, will be quickly winding down. Frankie and “Baghdad Bob” have a lot in common. Frankie is very verbally gifted with an eloquent gift of linguistic assets. He uses his skills to outduel logic and reason, to his ultimate detriment. He has stayed in it longer than most as his will is strong to prove his view!

However, like Baghdad Bob, at the end of the day he is a propagandist who’s ego will not allow a realistic discussion as his argument is falling apart around him. Instead, like Baghdad Bob and the Iraqi Army, when beaten he will retreat and declare victory!


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

This gentleman sent a survey out to his 80k strong email list and received 734 responses. He calculates the average UBER driver gross to be $19.73; 13.73 net. My position is that the $6/hr in expenses is incorrectly calculated. I would need to know the number of miles driven to calculate the actual expenses.

If you assume the ant needs to drive 20 miles to earn that commission, that would take a gallon of gas at $3.00 + $1 from depreciation (20 x $0.05). what other incremental expenses should be added? Assuming the net is closer to $15.73, we are looking at $31,460 for a 2,000 hr work year.









Lyft & Uber Driver Survey 2020: Uber Driver Satisfaction Takes a Big Hit


Our 2019 Uber Driver Survey is now complete! What do drivers think about Uber and Lyft? How much are drivers earning? We answer that and more.




therideshareguy.com


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> I don't know, they let 15.5yo kids start driving. Pretty much every adult in this country can drive unless they are severely disabled, physically or mentally. Driving may be a complex skill, but still one that almost everyone can accomplish.


I hear what you're saying, but consider this... just because everyone (or almost everyone) is doing something, doesn't mean everyone is doing it in a professional manner. If you need to fact check this, get in your car and take a ride. Driving in and of itself may not really be a high skill, but driving smoothly, safely, professionally, especially in heavy traffic, for example, is definitely a skill. Takes awareness and concentration.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> They don't refer to me as Gigabrain for no reason.


Gigabrain???? Really??? That's rich. Also, you caused me to spit coffee all over my desk and keyboard. What a joke!

I was following along with some of your logic, but then this... I don't even know what this is... an attempt to "prove" that you are smarter than the rest of us? Because unknown sources called you smart? WTF! I have an above average IQ myself, but this is just rich. I think you lost me. Sorry dude. I tried to give some thoughtful feedback in this thread but this just turned it all into one big joke for me.

If you want to be taken seriously, I would avoid trying to prove that you are smarter than others. Especially since whatever someone calls you, doesn't prove anything.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> Not a single bit is nonsense. My bona fides have been thoroughly vetted over the years.


By whom? The person who called you Gigabrain?


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Frankie you're a sharp guy but it's become too silly so I have to bail on the thread. The last thing I will point out is that you continually point to people posting without using any significant data or basis in fact. However, you do the exact same thing:



ftupelo said:


> This gentleman sent a survey out to his 80k strong email list and received 734 responses


According to the Rideshare Guy there are approximately 1.5 million Uber and Lyft drivers registered in North America. Of this 80k are on his mailing list which is about 5% of his defined population. Further, he received responses from 734, which is about 0.04 % of his defined population. You put a lot of Creedence into an Unscientific survey of which 4/100ths of a percent of the defined population responded with unverifiable data. Those are his numbers not mine. Not only is this statistically insignificant but any conclusions drawn are therefore ancillary lacking.


ftupelo said:


> the $6/hr in expenses is incorrectly calculated.


GUILTY of presenting an OPINION without any defined basis in fact. This is what you accuse others of.


ftupelo said:


> If you assume the ant needs to drive 20 miles to earn that commission,


GUILTY of presenting an OPINION without any defined basis in fact. This is what you accuse others of.


ftupelo said:


> Assuming the net is closer to $15.73


GUILTY of presenting an OPINION without any defined basis in fact. This is what you accuse others of.

The stupendously obvious conclusion is that even if you are 100% correct the average net of $15.73 per hour is 73 cents above the minimum wage in some states and the bottom starting pay at WalMart. So your own ascertained point is that your thesis is the minimum wage earnings make them overpaid relative to their skill??? They should what then, make less then the minimum wage???  

Until the next thread, _Arrivederci_


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> I hear what you're saying, but consider this... just because everyone (or almost everyone) is doing something, doesn't mean everyone is doing it in a professional manner. If you need to fact check this, get in your car and take a ride. Driving in and of itself may not really be a high skill, but driving smoothly, safely, professionally, especially in heavy traffic, for example, is definitely a skill. Takes awareness and concentration.


I have a 5* rating, I think I would have an acute understanding of what you describe.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> Gigabrain???? Really??? That's rich. Also, you caused me to spit coffee all over my desk and keyboard. What a joke!
> 
> I was following along with some of your logic, but then this... I don't even know what this is... an attempt to "prove" that you are smarter than the rest of us? Because unknown sources called you smart? WTF! I have an above average IQ myself, but this is just rich. I think you lost me. Sorry dude. I tried to give some thoughtful feedback in this thread but this just turned it all into one big joke for me.
> 
> If you want to be taken seriously, I would avoid trying to prove that you are smarter than others. Especially since whatever someone calls you, doesn't prove anything.


Above-average is nice, but a far cry from Gigabrain territory. As noted in my post, I am in the 96th percentile amongst college graduates, which easily places me in the top percentile of the wider population.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

Grossing 40k as an ant is far from being equivalent to having a 40k salary job with benefits, bonuses, raises, and potential to advance. 

Don't forget government safety nets ants don't have. If a FT ant slips and breaks their leg they could be insta-homeless.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> I have a 5* rating, I think I would have an acute understanding of what you describe.


Then why do your posts in this thread continually assert that this is a no-skill job that anyone with a pulse can do? I'll grant you that anyone with a pulse CAN do it, but not everyone does it well?

Anyway, I'm with @Seamus on this one. Ima head out...


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> *Withholding non-controversial information from the driver -* I should be able to check beyond a passengers rating, but also know how long the account has been active, and how many rides, how many 'incident reports' this user has on their record. It would also be nice to see the % of rides that each passenger account tips. Uber/Lyft's default position is to withhold information from the driver, even if that information is trivial. This is EGREGIOUS if they want to call us 'independant contractors.'
> *Hiding Buttons and Features as a mindgame - *Going Offline requires a submenu and an extra tap, to discourage drivers from flipping apps.
> *Only 2 Destination Mode active per day -* It's called "RIDE SHARING" which means I should always be able to pick where I'm heading and only take passengers in that direction.
> *Obfuscating information -* As an independant contractor, I should get all the information on the ping screen. Pick Up distance/time; Total Ride Distance/Time; Approximate payment amount.
> ...


Yes, exactly.

As I've said before, I can't think of ANY other context in which an independent contractor has to agree to do a job without knowing exactly what the job is and exactly how much it pays.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> Grossing 40k as an ant is far from being equivalent to having a 40k salary job with benefits, bonuses, raises, and potential to advance.
> 
> Don't forget government safety nets ants don't have. If a FT ant slips and breaks their leg they could be insta-homeless.


Anting has no hours, no dress code, no commute, unlimited vacation time, vacation time whenever desired, no boss, no threat of RIF's, unlimited ability to earn overtime pay, etc.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Anting has no hours, no dress code, no commute, unlimited vacation time, vacation time whenever desired, no boss, no threat of RIF's, unlimited ability to earn overtime pay, etc.


Haha, no commute? Go look at your Lyft yearly summary and compare the online miles to on-trip miles and tell 
me there's no commute.

Unlimited vacation time? The ability to not work on a given day is not the same as an accrued paid day off.

No dress code? Uber currently requires that I wear a face mask.

No boss? So I can't be fired, then?

Unlimited overtime pay? Show me where you get 1.5x fares after hitting 40 hours each week.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> Yes, exactly.
> 
> As I've said before, I can't think of ANY other context in which an independent contractor has to agree to do a job without knowing exactly what the job is and exactly how much it pays.


Sweetie is working on a very lucrative side consulting project outside of her very lucrative primary consulting work. She has a general idea of the work product, but it essentially requires fixing issues, so the nature of the work will not be known until the issue arises.

You should check the UBER app, it will tell you the exact pay to expect for the contract work you perform.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Sweetie is working on a very lucrative side consulting project outside of her very lucrative primary consulting work. She has a general idea of the work product, but it essentially requires fixing issues, so the nature of the work will not be known until the issue arises.
> 
> You should check the UBER app, it will tell you the exact pay to expect for the contract work you perform.


I imagine sweetie has longer than 8 seconds to get her information on the job and negotiate before agreeing to do it.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> Haha, no commute? Go look at your Lyft yearly summary and compare the online miles to on-trip miles and tell
> me there's no commute.
> 
> Unlimited vacation time? The ability to not work on a given day is not the same as an accrued paid day off.
> ...


Because you log hours outside of trips, does not make them a commute.

Yes, unlimited vacation - I never said anything about paid or not. If you want to take 6 weeks off this year you can - that is not always possible for salaried work.

Inane to compare a pandemic response to a dress code.

No, you will never be fired without cause.

I never mentioned the overtime rate of pay. But yes you can theoretically work as much as you would like to continue earning. If you have a $40k salaried job, you will receive now additional pay regardless of the hours worked and you have no option to put in additional hours to increase pay. Pay is capped at $40k.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> I imagine sweetie has longer than 8 seconds to get her information on the job and negotiate before agreeing to do it.


You would be wrong. She agreed to do the work and handles whatever comes through the funnel. She sees the issue in real-time and then fixes it. It's strange that you think most jobs have a fixed task. Outside of repetitive production line work, or something similar, most jobs are highly variable from hour to hour, day to day, year to year.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> You would be wrong. She agreed to do the work and handles whatever comes through the funnel. She sees the issue in real-time and then fixes it. It's strange that you think most jobs have a fixed task. Outside of repetitive production line work, or something similar, most jobs are highly variable from hour to hour, day to day, year to year.


Stop playing dense. If she's doing independent consultant work, then she's signing contracts for such and taking more than 8 seconds to consider signing them.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Seamus said:


> Frankie you're a sharp guy but it's become too silly so I have to bail on the thread. The last thing I will point out is that you continually point to people posting without using any significant data or basis in fact. However, you do the exact same thing:
> 
> 
> According to the Rideshare Guy there are approximately 1.5 million Uber and Lyft drivers registered in North America. Of this 80k are on his mailing list which is about 5% of his defined population. Further, he received responses from 734, which is about 0.04 % of his defined population. You put a lot of Creedence into an Unscientific survey of which 4/100ths of a percent of the defined population responded with unverifiable data. Those are his numbers not mine. Not only is this statistically insignificant but any conclusions drawn are therefore ancillary lacking.
> ...


Take a look at this statistical calculator, which provides a good estimate of the sample size needed to achieve statistical significance for a 95% confidence interval. Using your 1.5mm driver number, the population size needed is......385, or half of the number achieved by the study. Regardless, I never touted it as anything but additional data points. I've also never claimed that there is one right answer, in fact, I've discussed the need to be directionally correct. Everyone has a different experience - I'm trying to understand averages and get a remotely close answer. Just like you can look at the average salary for a history major - it is not precise, but it is directionally correct.









How to Determine the Correct Survey Sample Size


Before you can calculate a sample size, you need to determine a few things about the target population.




www.qualtrics.com





You realize none of the things you quoted was opinion without fact. The $6/hr being incorrect was opinion, but I provided facts to back up that assertion. The other two were assumptions based on reasonable information and experience. Modeling out things like this requires some assumptions. If my assumptions are off base, feel free to push back and explain why you think they are wrong and what a better figure would be.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> Stop playing dense. If she's doing independent consultant work, then she's signing contracts for such and taking more than 8 seconds to consider signing them.


What are you talking about? She has a blanket agreement to do work fixing issues that are unknown until they are known - at which point she fixes them. This isn't hard.

Just like you have a blanket agreement to give rides that are unknown until they are known.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> What are you talking about? She has a blanket agreement to do work fixing issues that are unknown until they are known - at which point she fixes them. This isn't hard.


No, it isn't hard. Before she entered into the "blanket agreement", she, no doubt, had ample time to consider it and ask questions.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

What are you going to say next, Franc? That your wife's counter party sat across the table from, or on the other end of the phone with, sweetie and beeped at her for 8 seconds while she decided?


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> No, it isn't hard. Before she entered into the "blanket agreement", she, no doubt, had ample time to consider it and ask questions.


I'll try to put this into terms you can understand. A lawyer signs a blanket engagement letter to handle a client's case for $x/hr. The attorney has a general idea of what the case entails, but the actual work required will be highly variable as he works through the case and various issues arise. He doesn't pick and choose which aspects of the case he will work on - he needs to address everything that arises to do his job. Some issues may be interesting to work on and some not so interesting, but he has agreed in advance to do the work necessary.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> I'll try to put this into terms you can understand. A lawyer signs a blanket engagement letter to handle a client's case for $x/hr. The attorney has a general idea of what the case entails, but the actual work required will be highly variable as he works through the case and various issues arise. He doesn't pick and choose which aspects of the case he will work on - he needs to address everything that arises to do his job. Some issues may be interesting to work on and some not so interesting, but he has agreed in advance to do the work necessary.


He also sets forth exactly what his compensation will be, whether it be an hourly rate, a percentage of recovery, or a flat rate. He isn't left hoping that the client will not rescind a large percentage of his compensation after the service is complete, is he?


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> He also sets forth exactly what his compensation will be, whether it be an hourly rate, a percentage of recovery, or a flat rate. He isn't left hoping that the client will not rescind a large percentage of his compensation after the service is complete, is he?


Right, the hourly rate is set. Just like your blanket agreement with UBER sets a per mile, per minute, minimum fare, etc. His earnings will vary based on the amount of work done, just as yours would.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Right, the hourly rate is set. Just like your blanket agreement with UBER sets a per mile, per minute, minimum fare, etc. His earnings will vary based on the amount of work done, just as yours would.


And he has mere seconds, typically while driving, to decide to take the client on? Or will he have a consultation with the prospective client during which he has the opportunity to learn everything he wishes to about the case before deciding to take it?


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> And he has mere seconds, typically while driving, to decide to take the client on? Or will he have a consultation with the prospective client during which he has the opportunity to learn everything he wishes to about the case before deciding to take it?


Haha, the mental gymnastics required to try to find a way to defend your position is amusing. The correct analogy is the one I am using where you have a blanket agreement to do a general type of work at a set rate. The actual work done within the confines of the agreement varies and is unknown until it is known. The attorney doesn't take on a client thinking there are no witnesses to depose and then decide I don't like depositions so I won't do them for your case now that it is known after the fact that there are indeed witnesses. I hate crafting interrogatories, so I've chosen not to take on that aspect of your case. You are arguing that UBER drivers should have the option to pick and choose their rides, which simply does not align with real-world work.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Anting has no hours no dress code, no commute, unlimited vacation time, vacation time whenever desired, no boss, no threat of RIF's, unlimited ability to earn overtime pay, etc.



*Anting has no hours -* but if you want steady work, you have to work when people are on the move
*Anting has no dress code -* but if you dress like a slob or have B.O. you will be downrated, and eventually deactivated
*Anting has no commute - *but you have to go where the rides are. Dead Miles are REAL, particularly after the last ride of your day.
*Anting has unlimited vacation time or whenever desired -* And yet to make ends meet, Uber drivers typically put in double the 9-5 hours of a regular worker
*Anting has no boss - *But the Algorithm is the hardest task master. The boss is real, and it is A.I.
*Anting has no threat of Reduction In Force -* You could be deactivated at any moment due to false claims. U/L's investigations department is not exactly the best either.
*Anting has unlimited ability to earn overtime pay - *Surge is the discretion of the algorithm, and the app will time you out if you have it on for too many hours.
You are stretching the truth beyond its limits to satisfy the 'letter of the law' over the 'spirit of the law'. What universe do you live in?


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> *Anting has no hours -* but if you want steady work, you have to work when people are on the move
> *Anting has no dress code -* but if you dress like a slob or have B.O. you will be downrated, and eventually deactivated
> *Anting has no commute - *but you have to go where the rides are. Dead Miles are REAL, particularly after the last ride of your day.
> *Anting has unlimited vacation time or whenever desired -* And yet to make ends meet, Uber drivers typically put in double the 9-5 hours of a regular worker
> ...


All fair points, but they are not dispositive of my claims either. Of course, the Ant may want to make adjustments to which hours to work, which locations to work, how many hours to work, what to wear, etc. to maximize earnings, but none of them are prescribed. The Ant is free to operate how they please. I don't know that U/L's deactivation policy is really any different than any other job - the NFL star could be put on reserve while rape ALLEGATIONS are investigated.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

[QUOTE="ftupelo, post: 7148763, member: You are arguing that UBER drivers should have the option to pick and choose their rides, which simply does not align with real-world work.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, they absolutely should have the necessary information to do so.

When request comes in, I should be able to know where they are going and exactly how much I'll be paid for taking them there. The passenger knows where they are going when they request the ride, why is it unfair that I also know that? What if I don't want to drive 30 miles in rush-hour traffic, but am perfectly happy to drive 7 miles on surface streets during that same time frame?


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> [QUOTE="ftupelo, post: 7148763, member: You are arguing that UBER drivers should have the option to pick and choose their rides, which simply does not align with real-world work.


Yes, they absolutely should have the necessary information to do so.

When request comes in, I should be able to know where they are going and exactly how much I'll be paid for taking them there. The passenger knows where they are going when they request the ride, why is it unfair that I also know that? What if I don't want to drive 30 miles in rush-hour traffic, but am perfectly happy to drive 7 miles on surface streets during that same time frame?
[/QUOTE]
Name another job where you get to pick and choose each task you perform? One signs on for a general type of work and then does all of the specific tasks that roll in to do their job. They don't individually assess whether they want to do each task and only perform the tasks of their choosing.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Yes, they absolutely should have the necessary information to do so.
> 
> When request comes in, I should be able to know where they are going and exactly how much I'll be paid for taking them there. The passenger knows where they are going when they request the ride, why is it unfair that I also know that? What if I don't want to drive 30 miles in rush-hour traffic, but am perfectly happy to drive 7 miles on surface streets during that same time frame?


Name another job where you get to pick and choose each task you perform? One signs on for a general type of work and then does all of the specific tasks that roll in to do their job. They don't individually assess whether they want to do each task and only perform the tasks of their choosing.
[/QUOTE]
Driving Uber is one job at a time. If the pax wants me to drive them from Grapevine to Dallas, THAT IS THE JOB. I deserve to know that driving them to Dallas is the job.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> The Ant is free to operate how they please.


Too many cancels -- Deactivated
Too low ratings -- Deactivated
Too long to pick-ups -- Potentially Deactivated

Ants not 'Free to Operate They Please' if they wish to remain on the platform. The platform is very passive-agressive in its means to control its so-called 'independent contractors'

Your confirmation biases and truth bending are staggering.

Again, lets look at the common sense 'spirit of the law' instead of going into Giga-Brain-Lawyer-Mode and quoting the letter. You sir, are arguing in extreme bad faith.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> Name another job where you get to pick and choose each task you perform? One signs on for a general type of work and then does all of the specific tasks that roll in to do their job. They don't individually assess whether they want to do each task and only perform the tasks of their choosing.


Driving Uber is one job at a time. If the pax wants me to drive them from Grapevine to Dallas, THAT IS THE JOB. I deserve to know that driving them to Dallas is the job.
[/QUOTE]
Why? It doesn't foot with the reality of how the majority of folks work in this country. I'm not understanding why this role should be the exception. All the more so when you know the rules of engagement prior to agreeing to the terms. UBER didn't bait and switch you.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

> Why? It doesn't foot with the reality of how the majority of folks work in this country. I'm not understanding why this role should be the exception. All the more so when you know the rules of engagement prior to agreeing to the terms. UBER didn't bait and switch you.


Ride Share and Gig Work implies that both the PAX is the Customer, and the DRIVER is a customer (of sorts) to the platform. Taking all the degrees of freedom away from the driver, and making the whims of the passengers and the information asymmetry of the platform certainly makes this like NO OTHER JOB. It is its own animal.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Why? It doesn't foot with the reality of how the majority of folks work in this country. I'm not understanding why this role should be the exception. All the more so when you know the rules of engagement prior to agreeing to the terms. UBER didn't bait and switch you.


Ride Share and Gig Work implies that both the PAX is the Customer, and the DRIVER is a customer (of sorts) to the platform. Taking all the degrees of freedom away from the driver, and making the whims of the passengers and the information asymmetry of the platform certainly makes this like NO OTHER JOB. It is its own animal.
[/QUOTE]
I don't believe this is true to the point that it has no analogs. Every job is different, but the nature of work can be strikingly similar. Folks on this board either fail to understand what other work is like or are willfully blind to the realities of most work. People complain about their jobs regardless of the role or employer. Employees have all sorts of asymmetrical information when it comes to their work. There is this strange mass delusion that all work outside of UBER is unicorns and rainbows.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Aren’t those government responses to Covid?


vs lockdowns and mandates? I see you ignore the rest. Kinda (but no really) waiting on the answer of salary vs hourly.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> I have a 5* rating, I think I would have an acute understanding of what you describe.


Then why are you insisting it's unskilled? Or am I not understanding the point you are trying to make?


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SHalester said:


> vs lockdowns and mandates? I see you ignore the rest. Kinda (but no really) waiting on the answer of salary vs hourly.


You caught me dead to rights. Ants indeed are not paid a salary in the traditional sense of the word. I just said ten Hail Mary's to repent.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

....and still no answer; but lots of dancing. 🤷‍♂️


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> Anting has no hours, no dress code, no commute, unlimited vacation time, vacation time whenever desired, no boss, no threat of RIF's, unlimited ability to earn overtime pay, etc.


Uber does NOT pay overtime pay. And vacation time, yes, but not paid. I get the point, we have flexibility, which we do. But we don't get some of the things that job people get. The overall idea here is sound, but some of the details are pesky.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> Then why are you insisting it's unskilled? Or am I not understanding the point you are trying to make?


My point is that I can easily maintain a 5* rating with no special skills or abilities. I drive people around safely, just like I do when I'm driving solo. I've been doing it since I was 15.5yo so I can essentially do it mindlessly. You ever driven somewhere and realized you totally zoned out on something else during the whole trip yet you made it there no problem?


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SHalester said:


> ....and still no answer; but lots of dancing. 🤷‍♂️


What answer are you seeking?


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> You would be wrong. She agreed to do the work and handles whatever comes through the funnel. She sees the issue in real-time and then fixes it. It's strange that you think most jobs have a fixed task. Outside of repetitive production line work, or something similar, most jobs are highly variable from hour to hour, day to day, year to year.


I agree with this one.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Shuttle driver salary for Seattle. Perhaps UBER is overcompensating, or the additonal compensation is accounting for enhanced risk as some have suggested. I also believe it's safe to assume this type of shuttle driver job would have set hours, dress code, etc.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> I agree with this one.


And here I was the one accused of being dense regarding this topic. Sometimes folks want to believe something so bad they will bend reality to fit their own preconceptions.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> And here I was the one accused of being dense regarding this topic. Sometimes folks want to believe something so bad they will bend reality to fit their own preconceptions.


Pot, meet kettle. I think you are projecting here, sir.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Pot, meet kettle. I think you are projecting here, sir.


Thankfully I have the mind of a champion and never fall prey to these sorts of mental mistakes. They don't call me Gigabrain for no reason.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Shuttle driver salary for Seattle


I see we are still confused. Seems you pulled a stat for an employee (and i doubt they have a 'salary'). And you use that to compare to a gig contractor?

That is exactly like comparing a salaried job to an hourly job. 🤷‍♂️


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> And here I was the one accused of being dense regarding this topic. Sometimes folks want to believe something so bad they will bend reality to fit their own preconceptions.


I don't think your whole premise is wrong. I think some of the details are pesky, and also you seem to want to believe some things that veteran drivers know to be false. Like the fact that Uber never fires anyone for no reason. Let's pick that apart. Sure, they have a reason, usually someone complained. But the people pushing back on this in the thread are basically saying (without being specific in the words) that there wasn't a JUST reason. I think we would all agree that sometimes drivers are deactivated when in fact they are innocent. I think we would also all agree that some drivers ARE under the influence, or handsy with the ladies, or careless with their words, or bad at driving or unsafe in some way. So yeah, is there a reason someone was deactivated, yes. Is there a JUST reason? Sometimes. 

Some of the differences of opinion here are semantics. Like reason VS. just reason. People don't usually spell out every little detail, they usually assume the listener is on the same page. Communication though... LOL

I think what you are experiencing in the pushback here is this: No one thinks that they themselves are over paid. People want more and often equate that with deserving more. And people can give you reasons why they deserve more. But at the end of the day, the market determines the value of what any individual does by how much people are willing to pay them to do it. For better or worse, right or wrong. In a way, EVERYONE in EVERY profession is being paid what the market values that profession at. (There are probably holes in that logic but go ahead and poke holes in it).

If I am completely objective with myself, I DO feel like I'm being overpaid when I take a 3 minute trip and get $30 dollars for it. But I don't feel overpaid in general. 

This critical thinking also applies to discussions about Uber's take rate. People look at individual trips where uber kept a lot of the money (usually high surge trips) but they never seem to realize that when you drive to a sticky surge, you get OVERPAID for your next ride if the next ride is not in a surge area. IE, you go to the $10 surge, it sticks to you, you go elsewhere, and the customer requests a ride at base rates, and you still get the $10 extra. Drivers who think dollar surge is bad should look at trips where you get surge that the rider didn't pay, and realize that, at least SOME of that money comes back to you here and there. Not saying all of it (before people pounce on me). But some of it.


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

OP gives himself a new nickname every few months 😄


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SHalester said:


> I see we are still confused. Seems you pulled a stat for an employee (and i doubt they have a 'salary'). And you use that to compare to a gig contractor?
> 
> That is exactly like comparing a salaried job to an hourly job. 🤷‍♂️


The point of this thread was to explore whether the Ants are overcompensated relative to their skills. To help answer that question, I looked to other similar jobs that would require a similar skillset. We've thoroughly discussed the puts and takes of Anting vs. salaried positions.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> OP gives himself a new nickname every few months 😄


Yeah but Gigabrain is awesome though. Actually, it's 2021, in order to be impressive, might upgrade to Terabrain?


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## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

Ted Fink said:


> Yeah but Gigabrain is awesome though. Actually, it's 2021, in order to be impressive, might upgrade to Terabrain?


Don't encourage him!


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Let me ask the board a more focused question. If you had the option of a flat hourly rate (while retaining all the flexibility), what would be an honestly fair rate? For me I would say $30 an hour is adequate, because we do pay expenses out of our earnings, for little things, you know, like the car. What does everyone else think? And I'm NOT asking how much you want, but rather what do you think is fair.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> OP gives himself a new nickname every few months 😄


For those Ants that don't frequent the Dallas boards, I have been glossed with various nicknames:

De La Crème: because everything I do is of the highest quality and held to the highest standards
Brass or Brassman: referencing a certain part of my anatomy
T-Love: Because I am extremely handsome with a beautiful olive complexion, chiseled physique, and full head of gorgeous hair. I dated one of the most famous women on the planet and was pursued by a supermodel
Gigabrain: we already went over my 3 degrees from the most prestigious and exclusive universities and top percentile IQ that would have qualified me for Mensa had I wanted to join


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> The point of this thread was to explore whether the Ants are overcompensated relative to their skills.


what skills? Ability to get a driver's license? ability to secure insurance? Can you go to college and learn those skills? Kinda the entire point for a percent of drivers is the entry bar for RS is set at the lowest level. It is not a career. It is not a salaried (still think you confused on that) position and mostly likely not ever an hourly job. 

How does a gig compare to a real W2 job? It doesn't. You can only compare it to other non-employee status jobs. 

Like maybe to a taxi driver? Might have had less push back. Maybe.

btw, you should explain to the person who created the graph shuttle drivers aren't paid a 'salary'. Their supervisor most likely is.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SHalester said:


> what skills? Ability to get a driver's license? ability to secure insurance? Can you go to college and learn those skills? Kinda the entire point for a percent of drivers is the entry bar for RS is set at the lowest level. It is not a career. It is not a salaried (still think you confused on that) position and mostly likely not ever an hourly job.
> 
> How does a gig compare to a real W2 job? It doesn't. You can only compare it to other non-employee status jobs.
> 
> ...


I agree - I've stated that the job requires essentially zero skill, which is why earnings in the range of a college graduate does not seem reasonable.

I disagree that you can't compare to W2 work. It's important to compare the job to alternatives and to not just focus on the negatives, but also the benefits of Anting. We can easily compare the roles and note the differences.


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

SHalester said:


> ....and still no answer; but lots of dancing. 🤷‍♂️


That's his stock in trade.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> That's his stock in trade.







Maybe my next nickname should be the Ant of Wall Street.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> I disagree that you can compare to W2 work.


have you even had a W2 job for any extended length of time? You seem to have no idea you can't compare a W2 job M-F at least 40hr a week to a gig where one can work when they want and for how long. How do you compare a job that requires a resume, an interview, sometimes testing to a gig that requires none of those and then somehow compare the amount each makes? 

At best you could compare RS to an entry level, no skills required, minimum paying job. That's it. 

and remember to lose the word 'salaried' as it can't be used here, in any way.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SHalester said:


> have you even had a W2 job for any extended length of time? You seem to have no idea you can't compare a W2 job M-F at least 40hr a week to a gig where one can work when they want and for how long. How do you compare a job that requires a resume, an interview, sometimes testing to a gig that requires none of those and then somehow compare the amount each makes?
> 
> At best you could compare RS to an entry level, no skills required, minimum paying job. That's it.
> 
> and remember to lose the word 'salaried' as it can't be used here, in any way.


Yes sir, I currently have a career with a white shoe finance firm. I get paid very handsomely to invest large quantums in businesses for my fiduciaries. I spend my days speaking to c-suite level management teams to understand their businesses, org charts, etc. I model out PnL's so am very aware of salaries for various positions and compensation structures. Cash is king, so it's my job to understand exactly how cash flows through complex businesses.

I compared RS to both college grad type jobs and close alternatives like shuttle driving.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> I get paid very handsomely to invest large sums in businesses for my fiduciaries.


in your own mind, no doubt. I normally have a 70% filter in that i don't believe what I see here. With a few, you for instance, that filter is like 98%.

You are a W2 baller, and investment baller and high roller baller.......who does RS and hangs out in a smallish social network website. Did I miss anything?


Back to it: you still have not explained how you can compare a RS gig to anything BUT a minimum wage paying job. You have all the variables wrong or so out of whack they can't be used without long winded explanations. 

And still haven't explained you know the difference between hourly and a salaried position. Perhaps that is the root of your opinion problem. 🤷‍♂️

think the dallas sub is calling you to return.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SHalester said:


> in your own mind, no doubt. I normally have a 70% filter in that i don't believe what I see here. With a few, you for instance, that filter is like 98%.
> 
> You are a W2 baller, and investment baller and high roller baller.......who does RS and hangs out in a smallish social network website. Did I miss anything?
> 
> ...


Let me put it this way - my salary + bonus even when haircut by 70% (leaving 30% remaining) would still be something you would die for. And that's not even counting my household income which is very robust when considering my sweetie's very lucrative career. As noted earlier in the thread, I post here as part of my charity work. My content has tended to focus on helping the ants improve themselves and their work productivity. I am also something of a role model to many - the quintessential manifestation of the American Dream.

Of course, I understand the difference between salaried and hourly pay. Did you see my job is to understand fixed (salaries) and variable (hourly) costs for complex businesses in order to project future cash flows? Can't structure deals without understanding future cash flows.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> I am also something of a role model to many - the quintessential manifestation of the American Dream.


Pompous. If you're quintessential I'm Donald ****ing Duck.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> Pompous. If you're quintessential I'm Donald ****ing Duck.


I should also note that some call me Lord Slaylish after Lord Baelish from Game of Thrones. It's somewhat related to the Brass nickname, but I received it for my viral posts during the depths of Covid. I encouraged the Ants to think about the dislocations in the economy caused by Covid and to view the ensuing chaos as a ladder to a better life. I famously plowed as much capital as I could get my hands on into equities at the bottom of the market and made a killing, hence the Slay.









Chaos is a ladder


"Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again — the fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love ... illusions. Only the ladder is real, the climb is all there is." Les...




www.uberpeople.net


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> I don't think your whole premise is wrong. I think some of the details are pesky, and also you seem to want to believe some things that veteran drivers know to be false. Like the fact that Uber never fires anyone for no reason. Let's pick that apart. Sure, they have a reason, usually someone complained. But the people pushing back on this in the thread are basically saying (without being specific in the words) that there wasn't a JUST reason. I think we would all agree that sometimes drivers are deactivated when in fact they are innocent. I think we would also all agree that some drivers ARE under the influence, or handsy with the ladies, or careless with their words, or bad at driving or unsafe in some way. So yeah, is there a reason someone was deactivated, yes. Is there a JUST reason? Sometimes.
> 
> Some of the differences of opinion here are semantics. Like reason VS. just reason. People don't usually spell out every little detail, they usually assume the listener is on the same page. Communication though... LOL
> 
> ...


I apologize, I missed your excellent and well-balanced post. I'll react to a couple of points.

I tried to acknowledge that UBER doesn't fire folks without at least an allegation of impropriety. We could argue whether their approach to adjudicating matters is ideal, but companies are often forced to play the role of judge and jury without perfect information (think of your star athlete put on leave while the team and league investigate allegations). Ideally, those matters would be handled in the appropriate venue, a court of law. But companies must decide how to approach the situation before the facts are fully brought to bear. 

I think we agree that folks just want more and therefore feel underpaid, regardless of what the numbers say or what their skills demand. That's not pushback, that's just uninformed subjective opinion. The point of my post was to cut through the noise and look at actual pay when compared to alternative options for employment.

We definitely agree that the market, over longer periods, determines the value of one's skills. I say longer-term because perhaps UBER subsidized driver pay in early years with investor dollars as an incentive to bring them to the platform. Ergo, rates weren't paid directly in relation to the level of skill required, but total pay captured both output and incentives to get the marketplace flywheel spinning. Proof of this would be the ever declining Ant pay pre-covid. UBER was able to regularly cut Ant pay without doing too much damage to supply.

Regarding take rate, we don't need critical thinking, we know the actual numbers. We know exactly what UBER takes every quarter - it is publicly disclosed information (~21% range).


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> I apologize, I missed your excellent and well-balanced post. I'll react to a couple of points.
> 
> I tried to acknowledge that UBER doesn't fire folks without at least an allegation of impropriety. We could argue whether their approach to adjudicating matters is ideal, but companies are often forced to play the role of judge and jury without perfect information (think of your star athlete put on leave while the team and league investigate allegations). Ideally, those matters would be handled in the appropriate venue, a court of law. But companies must decide how to approach the situation before the facts are fully brought to bear.
> 
> ...


Hat tip for your also excellent post... lol

Quick question... I think you referred to this before - publicly disclosed information - where can I go to read that? I am interested in the information available to me because I can learn from it.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

@ftupelo - this article (I don't know if it's accurate or not) says that uber stated 21% at their IPO but they did a sample and found it was much higher.

I just skimmed it - IDK if they are spot on or not...









A review of 14,756 rides found Uber and Lyft taking a much bigger slice of drivers' fares than they say they do


The car-news site Jalopnik asked Uber and Lyft drivers to send in their receipts in an effort to analyze how big of a cut the companies take.




www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Galveston (Aug 16, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Les Ants,
> 
> I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.
> 
> ...


----------



## Correll15 (Jul 17, 2021)

ftupelo said:


> Les Ants,
> 
> I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.
> 
> ...


I'm the ant. Ain't no doubt about it! Sociology major with no job forced into RS by necessity and still overcompensating. Statistics are overrated and more practical solutions can be proposed beyond this type of rhetorical mishmash!


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> Hat tip for your also excellent post... lol
> 
> Quick question... I think you referred to this before - publicly disclosed information - where can I go to read that? I am interested in the information available to me because I can learn from it.


UBER's investor relations website will have links to its financials and corporate presentation. Click the link, then click SEC filings if you want to see the 10Q or 10K. You can also click on the Q1 press release, which has the following chart:









Excluding the UK, the take rate for the mobility division was down 120bps Y/Y to 21.5%.






Uber Technologies, Inc. - Financials







investor.uber.com





Link to the investor presenation:


https://s23.q4cdn.com/407969754/files/doc_financials/2020/q4/InvestorPresentation2021.pdf


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> UBER's investor relations website will have links to its financials and corporate presentation. Click the link, then click SEC filings if you want to see the 10Q or 10K. You can also click on the Q1 press release, which has the following chart:
> 
> View attachment 605915
> 
> ...


Gotcha. Those numbers might be globally true, or they could be fudged on ubers end, but either way, they don't match my personal experience. If I go to my annual summaries for the 4 years I've been doing this, and divide Fees by Fares, I get between 32 and 38% depending on the year. Basically their take rate on me personally, is about one third of the gross.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> @ftupelo - this article (I don't know if it's accurate or not) says that uber stated 21% at their IPO but they did a sample and found it was much higher.
> 
> I just skimmed it - IDK if they are spot on or not...
> 
> ...


Investors would obviously like to see a higher take rate, which would mean more revenue to UBER. I don't see why they would fudge the numbers to make it look lower. Perhaps to please drivers, but I don't think drivers are tracking the number.


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> Investors would obviously like to see a higher take rate, which would mean more revenue to UBER. I don't see why they would fudge the numbers to make it look lower. Perhaps to please drivers, but I don't think drivers are tracking the number.


I'm tracking mine, for sure! But not for drivers as a whole.


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> I'm tracking mine, for sure! But not for drivers as a whole.


Maybe Uber's definition of Take Rate isn't what we are thinking on the driver end? IDK


----------



## Correll15 (Jul 17, 2021)

Correll15 said:


> I'm the ant. Ain't no doubt about it! Sociology major with no job forced into RS by necessity and still overcompensating. Statistics are overrated and more practical solutions can be proposed beyond this type of rhetorical mishmash!


Studies are only good for the proponents who created them. There's an inherent bias in the statistical data, one ant follows another with no real independence. This becomes an aggregate with no value for real-world application. 😯 blah blah blah... rhetorical ad nauseam


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> Gotcha. Those numbers might be globally true, or they could be fudged on ubers end, but either way, they don't match my personal experience. If I go to my annual summaries for the 4 years I've been doing this, and divide Fees by Fares, I get between 32 and 38% depending on the year. Basically their take rate on me personally, is about one third of the gross.


They provide overall take rate and exUK take rate. I don't believe they break out US numbers. Take rate is most important to the investor these days. Take rate was very important to Ants when UBER was taking a cut of fares. With fixed pay rates, the fluctuation in take rate depends solely on what they can charge pax.


----------



## Correll15 (Jul 17, 2021)

Ted Fink said:


> I'm tracking mine, for sure! But not for drivers as a whole.


I am as well at least for taxes.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Correll15 said:


> I am as well at least for taxes.


Why would you track UBER's take rate for your taxes?


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

ftupelo said:


> Why would you track UBER's take rate for your taxes?


He said he is tracking HIS take rate for tax purposes.


.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

UberBastid said:


> He said he is tracking HIS take rate for tax purposes.
> 
> 
> .


What is HIS take rate? Ants don't have a take rate.


----------



## Correll15 (Jul 17, 2021)

Wtf is ants?


----------



## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)




----------



## Correll15 (Jul 17, 2021)

Wtf is ants. If you don't mind?


----------



## Correll15 (Jul 17, 2021)

Ants don't have any problems like me. Surely we are misusing the term


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Correll15 said:


> Wtf is ants. If you don't mind?


Ants are Uber drivers. I'm not positive of the genesis, but I believe folks thought the black cars that appeared on the app looked like Ants.


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## Correll15 (Jul 17, 2021)

The app indicates they are keeping track of taxes. Take a look:


----------



## Correll15 (Jul 17, 2021)

...I now understand ants 😲


----------



## SpinalCabbage (Feb 5, 2020)

Deleted. Answer had already been posted.


----------



## Correll15 (Jul 17, 2021)

Bb in three hours.. Going to ant now. Make my boss/queen happy.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Correll15 said:


> Ants don't have any problems like me. Surely we are misusing the term


Perhaps one of the greatest Ants to ever walk this planet was one of Dallas' very own. Unfortunately, he hung up his driving gloves, but you never know, he may return one day. De La Creme even retired from Anting once - bought myself a luxurious watch and everything. But I'm back. 

Anyways, this Ant was so great, I proposed nicknaming him after one of the Old Masters:

VincANT vANT Gogh
ANTy Warhol
MichelANTgelo
Henri MANTisse
Édouard MANTnet 










Ian Richard Markham Appreciation Thread


Ants, I just posted this in another thread, but I think it requires it's own dedicated thread. We should honor the giants amongst us and I intend to do just that. We really need to gloss Ian with an appropriate nickname. Something along the lines of Uber Boss. This gentleman has honed his craft...




www.uberpeople.net


----------



## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

Ted Fink said:


> Hat tip for your also excellent post... lol
> 
> Quick question... I think you referred to this before - publicly disclosed information - where can I go to read that? I am interested in the information available to me because I can learn from it.


10 - Q, 10-K filings


----------



## SpinalCabbage (Feb 5, 2020)

Just read the thread. Holy back- flippin' Christ. Step away from the Ritalin.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SpinalCabbage said:


> Just read the thread. Holy back- flippin' Christ. Step away from the Ritalin.


De La Creme is au naturel. I'm just highly productive and intellectually unmatched.


----------



## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> De La Creme is au naturel. I'm just highly productive and intellectually unmatched.


...and haven't done anything productive at work today, apparently...🙄


----------



## SpinalCabbage (Feb 5, 2020)

ftupelo said:


> De La Creme is au naturel. I'm just highly productive and intellectually unmatched.


I am sure you're a very stable genius.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> ...and haven't done anything productive at work today, apparently...🙄


Not my most productive day. Reading through some term sheets. One for a $225mm pre-money; $250mm post-money deal with a couple of foreign private equity investors. The other is a relatively small $30mm acquisition using cash and stock. Majority to be paid upfront with the rest through milestone-based earnouts.


----------



## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Not my most productive day. Reading through some term sheets. One for a $225mm pre-money; $250mm post-money deal with a couple of foreign private equity investors. The other is a relatively small $30mm acquisition using cash and stock. Majority to be paid upfront with the rest through milestone-based earnouts.


Honestly, your long-windeness here is more tolerable than your extolling the virtues of non-fungible tokens and the staking of Ether.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

NauticalWheeler said:


> Honestly, your long-windeness here is more tolerable than your extolling the virtues of non-fungible tokens and the staking of Ether.


I don't yet have a strong opinion one way or the other on NFT's. I don't quite get it and they don't appeal to me, but I think it is generally a pretty lit concept. Ether staking on the other hand is fascinating. Ether London upgrade scheduled for August 4th! Fees will be used to start burning Ether, thereby either reducing the rate of inflation and perchance even creating a deflationary envrionment. 🙌 💎 🚀


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> No one implied that a degree guarantees a well-paying job. I posted that data to compare to what the average Ant is earning to help elucidate whether, in fact, the Ants are paid as poorly as some here would have you believe. I contended that an Ant with no real skills, no education, no need to even speak the dominant language, should not be as highly compensated as your average college grad, regardless of degree.
> 
> One of the most important skills one can possess is the ability to write concisely and cogently. Liberal arts graduates tend to excel in this regard.
> 
> ...


Years ago someone asked me: Why? if you are so smart, why aren't you rich? The answer is, of course, money doesn't always flow from smarts. If it did, I would be rich, Even a high degree of skill doesn.t guarantee high pay.. Also important is the risk the worker is exposed to and the importance of the work to the employer and ultimately the customer

Im not arguing that all workers should get paid equally, only that there ought to be a floor







.


----------



## SpinalCabbage (Feb 5, 2020)

oldfart said:


> Years ago someone asked me: Why? if you are so smart, why aren't you rich? The answer is, of course, money doesn't always flow from smarts. If it did, I would be rich, Even a high degree of skill doesn.t guarantee high pay.. Also important is the risk the worker is exposed to and the importance of the work to the employer and ultimately the customer
> 
> Im not arguing that all workers should get paid equally, only that there ought to be a floor
> 
> ...


I knew a very wealthy individual. Real-estate tycoon. Completely self-made. He was an idiot. The guy had no concept of failure. Fear of failure is a very real thing that can keep you from succeeding.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

oldfart said:


> Years ago someone asked me: Why? if you are so smart, why aren't you rich? The answer is, of course, money doesn't always flow from smarts. If it did, I would be rich, Even a high degree of skill doesn.t guarantee high pay.. Also important is the risk the worker is exposed to and the importance of the work to the employer and ultimately the customer
> 
> Im not arguing that all workers should get paid equally, only that there ought to be a floor


well, I have to ask what your poison was. If you are in fact smart and presumably highly skilled, what prevented you from becoming rich.


----------



## NauticalWheeler (Jun 15, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> well, I have to ask what your poison was. If you are in fact smart and presumably highly skilled, what prevented you from becoming rich.


I wonder if it was cocaine.

She don't lie, she don't lie, she don't lie... cocaine.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SpinalCabbage said:


> I knew a very wealthy individual. Real-estate tycoon. Completely self-made. He was an idiot. The guy had no concept of failure. Fear of failure is a very real thing that can keep you from succeeding.


There are many paths to the road to riches, but most are underpinned by sheer ambition. Some like De La Creme utilize brute intelligence and tenacity to build the credentials required to gain employment in the most lucrative sectors of the economy. Others utilize what I'll call streets smarts or relationship building (sales, deal structurers, connectors of projects and capital) that do not necessarily require excess intelligence. These folks do still tend to be driven and ambitious. 

Without the requisite drive, neither path to vast wealth is achievable. Sure you have a sliver or trust fund kids or lottery winners, etc. but they are few and far between and certainly not a variable within ones control, like drive.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> 2020 Year to date: Actual numbers: Gross hourly $30.78. After all expenses including depreciation, $25.11 per hour. Gross per mile $1.36, profit per mile $1.11. Been doing this a LONG time and I know my market. I work the peak hours and a lot of late late nights on weekends until the sun comes up.


This gentleman is making more net income than even the study suggests. Bravo!

$50,000+ annualized assuming 2,000hr work year.


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> This gentleman is making more net income than even the study suggests. Bravo!
> 
> $50,000+ annualized assuming 2,000hr work year.


Can't annualize it really... I'm a part timer. And it's only that good because I only work when it's raining money. If I worked 40hr/wk, my averages would be WAY lower.

PS. 50k a year is chicken feed. I'm just dicking around out here.

BTW, you are showing your intellectual prowess... pulling information from another thread into here because it's relevant. Maybe you really do have a Gigabrain LOLZ


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> Can't annualize it really... I'm a part timer. And it's only that good because I only work when it's raining money. If I worked 40hr/wk, my averages would be WAY lower.
> 
> PS. 50k a year is chicken feed. I'm just dicking around out here.
> 
> BTW, you are showing your intellectual prowess... pulling information from another thread into here because it's relevant. Maybe you really do have a Gigabrain LOLZ


The Cornell study provides analysis on part-timers and full-timers. Your earnings still exceed their figures for part-timers. Your calculation lends credence to the fact that their rigorous analysis is at least directionally correct. 

Agreed $50k is chicken feed, that's like a single day fluctuation in the value of a PA personal investment account for many (excludign 401k, RIA, or Bitties accounts).


----------



## voiceofreason (Jul 17, 2021)

ftupelo said:


> Perhaps one of the greatest Ants to ever walk this planet was one of Dallas' very own. Unfortunately, he hung up his driving gloves, but you never know, he may return one day. De La Creme even retired from Anting once - bought myself a luxurious watch and everything. But I'm back.
> 
> Anyways, this Ant was so great, I proposed nicknaming him after one of the Old Masters:
> 
> ...


wow, Manet, not Monet...Manet was the one with syphilis right?


----------



## voiceofreason (Jul 17, 2021)

ftupelo said:


> No one implied that a degree guarantees a well-paying job. I posted that data to compare to what the average Ant is earning to help elucidate whether, in fact, the Ants are paid as poorly as some here would have you believe. I contended that an Ant with no real skills, no education, no need to even speak the dominant language, should not be as highly compensated as your average college grad, regardless of degree.
> 
> One of the most important skills one can possess is the ability to write concisely and cogently. Liberal arts graduates tend to excel in this regard.
> 
> ...



I think you meant to write "libertyal arts" is good as drivnig fer uber


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Les Ants,

I added a poll, so please revert back to the first page and participate.

Toodles,

T-Love


----------



## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> please revert back to the first page and participate.


Am I required to read a 137 page "study" from a third-tier-Ivy to participate?


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> Am I required to read a 137 page "study" from a third-tier-Ivy to participate?


Haha, third-tier ivy. Cornell is certainly the red-headed stepchild of the Ivy League. In legal education, we have this concept of the T14 (top 14 law schools). Top 50 is tier 1, 50-100 is tier two, and everything else is TTT or Third Tier Toilet. Then, the Amlaw top250 law firms are considered Biglaw, and everything else is considered $H!TLaw.

Therefore, SMU Deadman Law a few blocks from me in Highland Park is Tier 2. @NauticalWheeler. Hypotheically, if De La Creme had attended law school, he would have settled for nothing less than a fellowship to a tier 1 school, no doubt. He also would have clerked for a judge, worked as a summer associate at a prestigious firm, worked for a clinic, and been an editor of the Law Review while there.


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> well, I have to ask what your poison was. If you are in fact smart and presumably highly skilled, what prevented you from becoming rich.


My point is that for most of us, there is no connection...between smarts or skills and money,


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

oldfart said:


> My point is that for most of us, there is no connection...between smarts or skills and money,


I figured you were dead wrong on this point, but the little research I did seems to point to a correlation between IQ and earnings, but not between IQ and wealth. Ie. smarter folks tend to earn more, but aren't savvy enough to convert it into sustained wealth. Gigachads with Gigabrains are able to do both - earn an obscene income that translates into vast wealth.

"each point increase in IQ test scores raises income by between $234 and $616 per year after holding a variety of factors constant. Regression results suggest no statistically distinguishable relationship between IQ scores and wealth."









Do you have to be smart to be rich? The impact of IQ on wealth, income and financial distress


How important is intelligence to financial success? Using the NLSY79, which tracks a large group of young U.S. baby boomers, this research shows that …




www.sciencedirect.com




.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

I've also noted here that attractiveness is also correlated to higher earnings. The double threat of IQ and extremely good looks likely explains why De La Creme is a 1 percenter when it comes to income. Remember, while both of those traits are important, the final ingredient is drive. The DLC was born for success and achievement but also exhibited laser-focused determination to excel in all aspects of life since he can remember. 

"Even after including a lengthy set of characteristics, including IQ, high school activities, proxy measures for confidence and personality, family background, and additional respondent characteristics in an empirical model of earnings, the attractiveness premium is present in the respondents’ mid-30s and early 50s. Our findings are consistent with attractiveness being an enduring, positive labor market characteristic."









FACIAL ATTRACTIVENESS AND LIFETIME EARNINGS: EVIDENCE FROM A COHORT STUDY


We use unique longitudinal data to document an economically and statistically significant positive correlation between the facial attractiveness of male high school graduates and their subsequent labor market earnings. There are only weak links between ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> Remember, while both of those traits are important, the final ingredient is drive.


Aside from you strutting like a peacock for most of this recent post, this one nugget jumped off the page at me and it's the reason for whatever level of success I have attained. I'm not the best looking or the smartest but I have the drive and determination of any 10 normal people. I eat bricks and spit out pavement. I keep practicing my craft so that I continue to get better. I'm always looking for the best way to do things.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

I think folks are grossly inflating the actual marginal costs to operate their vehicle. Gas should be $0.10/mile. Mileage depreciation is $0.05/miles. Insurance is not an incremental cost, it is something you would have for the vehicle anyways. Vehicle depreciation do to time/aging is not an incremental cost - the vehicular would lose that value regardless just from being in existence combined with the passage of time. You can buy 4 tires at $48/pop that last 40k miles - that's another $0.0048/mile. An oil change is $20. A Honda Civic costs $368/year for maintenance (due to increased mileage, I'll increase it 3x to $1,104) - over 40k miles/year, that's $0.0276. Total, I'm getting $0.1824/mile. You are able to then offset $0.56/mile against income.


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> I think folks are grossly inflating the actual marginal costs to operate their vehicle. Gas should be $0.10/mile. Mileage depreciation is $0.05/miles. Insurance is not an incremental cost, it is something you would have for the vehicle anyways. Vehicle depreciation do to time/aging is not an incremental cost - the vehicular would lose that value regardless just from being in existence combined with the passage of time. You can buy 4 tires at $48/pop that last 40k miles - that's another $0.0048/mile. An oil change is $20. A Honda Civic costs $368/year for maintenance (due to increased mileage, I'll increase it 3x to $1,104) - over 40k miles/year, that's $0.0276. Total, I'm getting $0.1824/mile. You are able to then offset $0.56/mile against income.


I like the thinking here. Although not everyone drives a honda civic. For example, my gas mileage is better, but someone else with an XL might be much worse. I use a figure of $0.25 a mile because sometimes things break. And I spend a few dollars on other stuff like car washes and air fresheners. $0.25 a mile I'm comfortable with as a good number that leaves some room for increases in the price of gas (which are occuring now) and unexpected fixes.


----------



## EM1 (Apr 28, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Les Ants,
> 
> I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.
> 
> ...


LOL. You assume the data provided by the R/S companies is accurate. Thats a huge/bad assumption. Second, even if accurate, they probably cherry picked drivers/rides that were more profitable (surge, multiplier). In addition, what date range were the samples taken? If during the months the driver-set multiplier rates were in effect, very skewed data. Too many assumptions here and trusting an incredibly unreliable, dishonest comoany to provide data that could reflect poorly on them. Emough said.


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> I figured you were dead wrong on this point, but the little research I did seems to point to a correlation between IQ and earnings, but not between IQ and wealth. Ie. smarter folks tend to earn more, but aren't savvy enough to convert it into sustained wealth. Gigachads with Gigabrains are able to do both - earn an obscene income that translates into vast wealth.
> 
> "each point increase in IQ test scores raises income by between $234 and $616 per year after holding a variety of factors constant. Regression results suggest no statistically distinguishable relationship between IQ scores and wealth."
> 
> ...


thanks. I didn’t distinguish between earnings and wealth and I should have. I don’t see much difference between working for and earning $200000 a year or $20000 a year. Sure there will be a difference in lifestyle but stop working (or die) and the flow of money stops. The wealthy guy can’t turn it off

First you work for your money, then your money works for you. Most of us will never get to that second step no matter how smart we are


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

oldfart said:


> thanks. I didn’t distinguish between earnings and wealth and I should have. I don’t see much difference between working for and earning $200000 a year or $20000 a year. Sure there will be a difference in lifestyle but stop working (or die) and the flow of money stops. The wealthy guy can’t turn it off
> 
> First you work for your money, then your money works for you. Most of us will never get to that second step no matter how smart we are


The difference is that the Gigachad with the Gigabrain that earns $200k (or way, way, way more, hypothetically of course) has the opportunity to save and have their money start working for them. That’s nearly impossible on $20k. The average $200k earner increases expenses in lockstep with their earnings And never builds a capital base. The Gigachad sees earnings as a way to build capital. He save’s and invests furiously. He owns real estate, stocks, crypto, all sorts of assets.


----------



## Who is John Galt? (Sep 28, 2016)

ftupelo said:


> *Rigorous Cornell Study on Ant Earnings*



On a related but unassociated Cornell matter, John ‘Strop’ Cornell, the great comic sidekick to Paul ‘Hoges’ Hogan died today. A very, very astute businessman was he.


Thanks for all the laughs and comic brilliance Strop.




> Australian comedian John 'Strop' Cornell dies aged 80
> 
> 
> Australian comedian John Cornell, known for his work with Paul Hogan, dies aged 80 at his Byron Bay home after battling Parkinson's disease for 20 years.
> ...


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Where this study lost me is right at the beginning of the report where they focused on hourly wage. 

that whole hourly wage thing just rubs me the wrong way. Not to mention it really screws up their methodology. We are paid by the mile, not by the hour. They measure income by the hour but calculate expenses by the mile. That doesn’t make sense to me


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

oldfart said:


> Where this study lost me is right at the beginning of the report where they focused on hourly wage.
> 
> that whole hourly wage thing just rubs me the wrong way. Not to mention it really screws up their methodology. We are paid by the mile, not by the hour. They measure income by the hour but calculate expenses by the mile. That doesn’t make sense to me


This was discussed elsewhere in the thread. Hourly is a helpful metric not only to compare to alternative employment options, which will tend to pay hourly, but it also tells you what you are receiving for your time. Employees, even those that are extremely handsomely compensated like myself, are essentially selling our time to someone else. We aren't entrepreneurs or creators - we are lending a portion of our day in exchange for a salary or hourly pay.


----------



## circuitsports (Apr 19, 2020)

if you are mocha color, attend duke for anything finance - you will be alright.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

The majority of the votes so far are for net earnings in excess of $18/hr. By far the most popular option is $25+. Thank you for confirming the empirical evidence.


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> The majority of the votes so far are for net earnings in excess of $18/hr. By far the most popular option is $25+. Thank you for confirming the empirical evidence.


Two things:

1. Your poll, thus far, has a very small sample size, but yes, it does seem to be trending consistent with the study.

2. And this one is for everyone: Earnings are very dependent on where and when you drive and how well you know your market. Your earnings can very wildly and you have to play for the averages.

3. OP: When things are in full swing in your market, are your earnings double or triple what you are experiencing now? If so, your long term average is probably on par with the study and or DLC's poll.

4. DLC: Here comes the hotstepper... LOL


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

@ftupelo what is a gigaCHAD? or was that a typo a mile or so back in this abomination of a thread


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1. Your poll, thus far, has a very small sample size, but yes, it does seem to be trending consistent with the study.
> 
> ...


I'm not too familiar with earnings during peak hours. I'm not even sure when peak hours are. I try to get a ride on my way home from work each night. I then drive Lux on weekend mornings from 6am-12pm.


----------



## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

ftupelo said:


> I'm not too familiar with earnings during peak hours. I'm not even sure when peak hours are. I try to get a ride on my way home from work each night. I then drive Lux on weekend mornings from 6am-12pm.


That comment was more for people who aren't earning what they wish they were then for you. You are just dicking around out there, you don't care what you earn. You're giving back. Most uber drivers need the money and so therefore if that person, is making low wages, I'm saying for them to think about when/where they are driving. And oh yeah, KNOW YOUR MARKET.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> @ftupelo what is a gigaCHAD? or was that a typo a mile or so back in this abomination of a thread


GigaCHAD was not a typo. The name "GigaChad" indicates that the person is the ultimate Chad Thunder¢0¢k, an internet archetype representing an ultra-masculine, sexually attractive male.


----------



## EM1 (Apr 28, 2019)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> And where is the valuation of risk in this study?
> 
> Ant wipes out his car and is in the hospital for three months with a broken leg with no workers comp, no disability, and a totaled car with $2500 deductuble? What's the monetary value of that?
> 
> ...


Well said I was going to post on this. When I was in college I worked pt in a grain elevator. One of the guys had an 8th grad educatjon literally. But we made 2x what the minimum wage was at the time b/c it was a high risk job-much chance of injury or even death (one guy died at the plant in accident a year before I started there). Im curious if the assault & death rates for uber drivers is higher than national average or compared to say, subway sandwich makers? There is also liability factor. Will insurance cover all or part of damages or injuries in an at fault accident? No fault accident? Transportation jobs in general do tend to have higher disability claims. So many variables and factors to consider other than required education level when it comes to compensation. And we havent even gotten into how many times Scruber has failed to pay drivers for rides, cancellation fees, promos/quests/surges/tips etc.


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

While I understood that the job entailed risks, I didn’t fully appreciate the magnitude or frequency. while I still believe that the Ants are overpaid according to scale, I am coming around to the idea that the delta is really compensating for taking on a higher risk. If I were to think about it in stock market terms, driving Uber is like A high beta stock - it may outperform the market in a bull market, but only because it is ”riskier.” Driving Uber offers no alpha, you aren’t being overcompensated relative to the market, even if it may appear so due to the high beta.


----------



## EM1 (Apr 28, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> While I understood that the job entailed risks, I didn’t fully appreciate the magnitude or frequency. while I still believe that the Ants are overpaid according to scale, I am coming around to the idea that the delta is really compensating for taking on a higher risk. If I were to think about it in stock market terms, driving Uber is like A high beta stock - it may outperform the market in a bull market, but only because it is ”riskier.” Driving Uber offers no alpha, you aren’t being overcompensated relative to the market, even if it may appear so due to the high beta.


I get what youre doing here. Economics is a social discipline. Youre selectively choosing a few math components (statistics & finance) & disregarding other components & then saying its pure economics that drivers are overpaid. Manipulating to arrive at your (or the study’s) own self-fulfilling conclusions. We understand what you and this study represent, a false narrative.

Moreover, youre trusting companies with a documented history of bribery, corruption, repated failure to pay drivers, legal violations, as a reliable source for the stats that are the basis for your argument. This study is a house of cards & everyone knows it.


----------



## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> .For a profession (Anting) that requires no education and very little skill, it appears that the Ants are being overcompensated.


I dont think the authors of the study would agree with the conclusion you reached; 

*"For a profession (Anting) that requires no education and very little skill, it appears that the Ants are being overcompensated"*. 

The study's findings are
• The median driver earned, after expenses, $23.25 per hour, close to the Seattle median hourly earnings of $25.45, and more than the median hourly of taxi drivers ($16.81). 
• 9 in 10 drivers made more per hour than the average taxi driver ($16.81), even after expenses. • 92% of drivers make more than the Seattle minimum wage ($16.39) even after deducting expenses. 
• 96% of drivers drove less than 40 hours per week, including driver wait time on the app. 31% less than 5 hours. 
• For every ten dollars drivers grossed, they had, on average, one dollar in expenses. 
• Only a third of drivers use both Lyft and Uber


and their conclusions

• Platform driving is primarily a side-gig. Very few drivers approach anything like a full-time work week. 
• Platform drivers’ hourly earnings net of marginal costs are higher than the minimum wage and comparable kinds of work, like taxi driving and chauffeuring. These earnings do not, however, include any returns to drivers for providing the use of their cars. 
• Multi-apping increases drivers’ earnings, but most drivers do not multi-app. 

You said..."*for a profession"*. ants are over over compensated"
The study found that Uber/Lyft are "side gigs*"*, not professions at all. And although the study says that we are paid more than minimum wage and more than comparable kinds of work, it does not characterize this as "*over compensation"*

More than that, the study is limited to Seattle and the authors make it clear that we shouldn't extrapolate to the rest of the country as you seem to do

As I said in another post, The authors lost me when they decided to emphasize hourly wages, . We are not paid by the hour, and we are not paid wages

and then there is this *For every ten dollars drivers grossed, they had, on average, one dollar in expenses... *
really?? $10 is in my market, about a 10 mile ride...at $3 a gal, just the fuel costs me a dollar, and thats with no dead miles and no idle time,

The study is not worth the time it took me to read it and respond


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

oldfart said:


> I dont think the authors of the study would agree with the conclusion you reached;
> 
> *"For a profession (Anting) that requires no education and very little skill, it appears that the Ants are being overcompensated"*.
> 
> ...


Sir, these are Cornell professors; some of the brightest minds in this country outside of the DLC himself. While I appreciate your input, I’ll trust the brain trust at Cornell, thank you very much.


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## EM1 (Apr 28, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Sir, these are Cornell professors; some of the brightest minds in this country outside of the DLC himself. While I appreciate your input, I’ll trust the brain trust at Cornell, thank you very much.


Anyone can provide ‘statistics’ of their choosing. Again, the R/S companiea are biased; if you trust info provided by these companies you are reinforcing their bias.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Sir, these are Cornell professors; some of the brightest minds in this country outside of the DLC himself. While I appreciate your input, I’ll trust the brain trust at Cornell, thank you very much.


My comments went in two directions.

1) I dismissed your summary of their work. The study never said or even even implied that we are over compensated You said that. And they limited their comments to one city, you implied the their conclusions were valid for all of us

if you are going to trust the professors, trust them, and accurately summarize their work, not make stuff up and attribute to them

2) I didn’t mean to dismiss the qualifications of the professors or their work. But like any study they need to start with certain assumptions and data. It’s not that I am criticizing their work. But I am questioning their data. And if their data is incomplete or cherry picked and if their assumptions are off base the conclusions will be wrong

The data came from Uber and Lyft. They didn’t talk to any drivers. And one “fact” that they used to reach their conclusions is that the average driver has $1 of expenses per $10 of gross income. I don’t believe that number

As to my own particular bias. I don’t believe dollars per hour is the thing that we should be looking at. And of course the professors do. And I don’t think we should be comparing ourselves to hourly workers. Which seems to be the whole point of the study The way I see it is for an hourly worker to make more money, he has to work more hours. If we want to make more money we have to drive more miles with passengers or less dead miles.or both. IE we increase income, and or reduce expenses Hourly employees don’t have opportunities like that. To make more money, they can only work more hours.

Comparing us to other gig workers, or workers that work for tips or independent taxi or truck drivers makes more sense to me


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## Ski-U-Uber (Feb 2, 2020)

Exactly! The drivers that piss and moan on this board have zero leverage. You are compensated based on how replaceable you are. Period. 

Uber/Lyft can replace you with anyone with a car and a smartphone.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> For those Ants that don't frequent the Dallas boards, I have been glossed with various nicknames:
> 
> De La Crème: because everything I do is of the highest quality and held to the highest standards
> Brass or Brassman: referencing a certain part of my anatomy
> ...


Seems that these terms are pejorative.

They are insulting you and your claims.

Do you not realize this?


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> I agree - I've stated that the job requires essentially zero skill, which is why earnings in the range of a college graduate does not seem reasonable.
> 
> I disagree that you can't compare to W2 work. It's important to compare the job to alternatives and to not just focus on the negatives, but also the benefits of Anting. We can easily compare the roles and note the differences.


Seems that the job requires no skills other than driving, reading and breathing.

However, being reasonably profitable requires skill, experience and the ability to experiment, learn and adapt.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

Correll15 said:


> Studies are only good for the proponents who created them. There's an inherent bias in the statistical data, one ant follows another with no real independence. This becomes an aggregate with no value for real-world application. 😯 blah blah blah... rhetorical ad nauseam


Yep.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

The ants that want to know the destination so the can filter rides and the ability to charge their own rates make a fatal error in their analysis. They assume these changes will have no knock-on effects. They believe these changes will do nothing but enhance their earnings.

What they don’t understand is that the volume of demand depends heavily on a seamlessly functioning system will little friction. If costs increase too much, wait times extend to long, drivers will not accept their rides - or cancel frequently, folks will be looking for alternative options. For those struggling to comprehend that, I would ask them why they believe rideshare massively increased ridership over the old taxi system. It’s because UBER made the whole system cheaper and smoother and more acessbile.

Let‘s not go back to the days of demand at taxi levels.


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## AvisDeene (Jun 7, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> The ants that want to know the destination so the can filter rides and the ability to charge their own rates make a fatal error in their analysis. They assume these changes will have no knock-on effects. They believe these changes will do nothing but enhance their earnings.
> 
> What they don’t understand is that the volume of demand depends heavily on a seamlessly functioning system will little friction. If costs increase too much, wait times extend to long, drivers will not accept their rides - or cancel frequently, folks will be looking for alternative options. For those struggling to comprehend that, I would ask them why they believe rideshare massively increased ridership over the old taxi system. It’s because UBER made the whole system cheaper and smoother and more acessbile.
> 
> Let‘s not go back to the days of demand at taxi levels.


If this was true, Uber would have reduced the rates when they took away Californian drivers ability to set their own rates. They didn't, they just kept the rates high so they themselves can get a higher share of the fare. Demand for rides would have also plummeted in California, which it didn't. If anything, Uber made the system more expensive for customers, especially with their surge pricing.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

AvisDeene said:


> If this was true, Uber would have reduced the rates when they took away Californian drivers ability to set their own rates. They didn't, they just kept the rates high so they themselves can get a higher share of the fare. Demand for rides would have also plummeted in California, which it didn't. If anything, Uber made the system more expensive for customers, especially with their surge pricing.


Do you have any good sources for how the California situation played out. Sure some ants charged more, but was a wholesale increase in pricing experience overall? If so, to what magnitude? These are my favorite arguments - flat out denial of supply and demand. The same folks will then tell you how surge pricing brings on additional drivers. You could argue that the rates charged aren’t maximizing revenues, but I don’t know what basis you would have to argue that. The working presumption should be that the platforms are pricing in a way the maximizes revenues for them and the system.


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## AvisDeene (Jun 7, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Do you have any good sources for how the California situation played out. Sure some ants charged more, but was a wholesale increase in pricing experience overall? If so, to what magnitude? These are my favorite arguments - flat out denial of supply and demand. The same folks will then tell you how surge pricing brings on additional drivers. You could argue that the rates charged aren’t maximizing revenues, but I don’t know what basis you would have to argue that. The working presumption should be that the platforms are pricing in a way the maximizes revenues for them and the system.


Do you have access to all of the information that Uber and Lyft provided for the study, along with all of the information that they didn't? If not, then there is no point in continuing this discussion since you can't prove that the information isn't biased in their favor. 

I don't have any information other than what drivers have claimed themselves and the news articles about customers complaining about prices and the CEO of Uber claiming that prices will be back to normal in September. Fact of the matter is, unless we get a court order or whistle blower that releases the information required to defend either of our positions, there is no point in debating with each other since all we have is our opinions, even though you think your opinion is fact. 

You really are only basing your opinion on a small sample size of drivers from one of the most busiest cities, with one of the highest rates of pay in the country. So your opinion is flawed from the start, since you can't compare one of the largest and most expensive cities to the rest of the country.


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## circuitsports (Apr 19, 2020)

People know about as much about what Uber is doing as they know about what caltrans is doing or how weather warfare effects climate change.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

AvisDeene said:


> Do you have access to all of the information that Uber and Lyft provided for the study, along with all of the information that they didn't? If not, then there is no point in continuing this discussion since you can't prove that the information isn't biased in their favor.
> 
> I don't have any information other than what drivers have claimed themselves and the news articles about customers complaining about prices and the CEO of Uber claiming that prices will be back to normal in September. Fact of the matter is, unless we get a court order or whistle blower that releases the information required to defend either of our positions, there is no point in debating with each other since all we have is our opinions, even though you think your opinion is fact.
> 
> You really are only basing your opinion on a small sample size of drivers from one of the most busiest cities, with one of the highest rates of pay in the country. So your opinion is flawed from the start, since you can't compare one of the largest and most expensive cities to the rest of the country.


Except there is actual data behind the 136 page empirical study and none behind yours. You don’t have to believe the piece I posted, but there is no doubt it is a serious examination by serious scholars at top-flight institutions. These folks have their own reputations to defend to their peers and within the scholarly community. I’ve seen no one seriously questioning the rigor of the work besides folks speculating on here because they don’t like the conclusions.


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## AvisDeene (Jun 7, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Except there is actual data behind the 136 page empirical study and none behind yours. You don’t have to believe the piece I posted, but there is no doubt it is a serious examination by serious scholars at top-flight institutions. These folks have their own reputations to defend to their peers and within the scholarly community. I’ve seen no one seriously questioning the rigor of the work besides folks speculating on here because they don’t like the conclusions.


Do you have access to all of the data about driver income or not? Did Uber and Lyft give the researchers all of the information required to get an unbiased result or not? It is a simple question with a simple answer. These folks and their reputation don't matter, what matters is if the information that they have been provided is as unbiased as possible. If you don't have access to all of the data, and not just the data that Uber and Lyft cherry picked for this study, then you have zero grounds to stand upon to back up your _opinion. _

Researchers can be manipulated and have been manipulated several times throughout history by corporations, in order to have their results be slanted in the companies favor. Uber and Lyft are no different. So until you can guarantee that in information is 100% unbiased, you should be quiet.


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## circuitsports (Apr 19, 2020)

Mein Kampf is 700 pages written by a world leader, backed by an entire government, all scientists, every school and most people in Germany in 1933 - therefore 500% more true than even this study.

how long is the Koran, that’s got 2000 years of study and it’s conclusions are women are inferior and children are ok to rape and marry.

plus it even advocates murdering other religions…

Studies are worthless without all the facts, non of the bias - Cornell has neither.

San Francisco Uber makes more in a good weekend than there phone support costs in a year.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

AvisDeene said:


> Do you have access to all of the data about driver income or not? Did Uber and Lyft give the researchers all of the information required to get an unbiased result or not? It is a simple question with a simple answer. These folks and their reputation don't matter, what matters is if the information that they have been provided is as unbiased as possible. If you don't have access to all of the data, and not just the data that Uber and Lyft cherry picked for this study, then you have zero grounds to stand upon to back up your _opinion. _
> 
> Researchers can be manipulated and have been manipulated several times throughout history by corporations, in order to have their results be slanted in the companies favor. Uber and Lyft are no different. So until you can guarantee that in information is 100% unbiased, you should be quiet.


I don’t have the data behind any study’s or clinical trials - that doesn’t mean I don’t trust the studies or take the medications. I rely on the researchers to analyze the data a draw the conclusions based on their expertise. I lost trust that given their reputations, these research felt the data set was sufficiently complete.

Nothing suggests what you are saying. Again you are making it up out of whole closet because it doesn’t support you opinion. Check the pool associated with this thread; it skews heavily in favor of the empirical research.

I’m not saying researchers have never been corrupted or that research shouldn’t be questioned and picked apart. What I do believe is that we shouldn’t question research simply because we don’t like the conclusion. You are are forgetting that revenue is just a single data point in there analysis, the rest is on the expense side which required no data from Uber or Lyft.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

circuitsports said:


> Mein Kampf is 700 pages written by a world leader, backed by an entire government, all scientists, every school and most people in Germany in 1933 - therefore 500% more true than even this study.
> 
> how long is the Koran, that’s got 2000 years of study and it’s conclusions are women are inferior and children are ok to rape and marry.
> 
> ...


What facts is Cornell missing and how are they biased?


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## AvisDeene (Jun 7, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> I don’t have the data behind any study’s or clinical trials - that doesn’t mean I don’t trust the studies or take the medications. I rely on the researchers to analyze the data a draw the conclusions based on their expertise. I lost trust that given their reputations, these research felt the data set was sufficiently complete.
> 
> Nothing suggests what you are saying. Again you are making it up out of whole closet because it doesn’t support you opinion. Check the pool associated with this thread; it skews heavily in favor of the empirical research.
> 
> I’m not saying researchers have never been corrupted or that research shouldn’t be questioned and picked apart. What I do believe is that we shouldn’t question research simply because we don’t like the conclusion. You are are forgetting that revenue is just a single data point in there analysis, the rest is on the expense side which required no data from Uber or Lyft.


I’m not questioning the research because I don’t like the conclusion, I’m questioning the information that has been provided to them.

Again, until we can get access to all of the information, your opinion, just as mine, will remain just that, an opinion. You have nothing to back your stance except for the fact that you like the results since they’re in line with what you want to believe.

So please, until you can guarantee that the information is 100% unbiased, be quiet, otherwise, you’re only going to come off as a troll.


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## circuitsports (Apr 19, 2020)

[







7154100, member: 199921"]
Mein Kampf is 700 pages written by a world leader, backed by an entire government, all scientists, every school and most people in Germany in 1933 - therefore 500% more true than even this study.

how long is the Koran, that’s got 2000 years of study and it’s conclusions are women are inferior and children are ok to rape and marry.

plus it even advocates murdering other religions…

Studies are worthless without all the facts, non of the bias - Cornell has neither.

San Francisco Uber makes more in a good weekend than there phone support costs in a year.
[/QUOTE]


----------



## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

AvisDeene said:


> I’m not questioning the research because I don’t like the conclusion, I’m questioning the information that has been provided to them.
> 
> Again, until we can get access to all of the information, your opinion, just as mine, will remain just that, an opinion. You have nothing to back your stance except for the fact that you like the results since they’re in line with what you want to believe.
> 
> So please, until you can guarantee that the information is 100% unbiased, be quiet, otherwise, you’re only going to come off as a troll.


Again, earnings is only one piece of the analysis. The most important contributions from the piece are on the expense side. This is not my opinion - this is the conclusions from the rigorous empirical work. It is also the conclusion of the poll. 

Again, you can never guarantee any information is 100% unbiased for any study. Does that mean we write off all scholarship entirely?


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## AvisDeene (Jun 7, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Again, earnings is only one piece of the analysis. The most important contributions from the piece are on the expense side. This is not my opinion - this is the conclusions from the rigorous empirical work. It is also the conclusion of the poll.
> 
> Again, you can never guarantee any information is 100% unbiased for any study. Does that mean we write off all scholarship entirely?


The premise of this thread is you believing that drivers are paid too much. So earnings is a large factor of the analysis.

It’s a really simple question you keep refusing to answer because you know the answer would prove that the results of this study are to be taken with a grain of salt.

The answer is no, you can’t guarantee that the information provided isn’t biased or hand selected by Uber and Lyft in order to skew the results in their favor. I’d even argue that they did cherry pick the information and use the fact that they chose Seattle as the location due to the fact that it’s one of the busiest cities with one of the highest driver pay in the ride share industry.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

AvisDeene said:


> The premise of this thread is you believing that drivers are paid too much. So earnings is a large factor of the analysis.
> 
> It’s a really simple question you keep refusing to answer because you know the answer would prove that the results of this study are to be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> The answer is no, you can’t guarantee that the information provided isn’t biased or hand selected by Uber and Lyft in order to skew the results in their favor. I’d even argue that they did cherry pick the information and use the fact that they chose Seattle as the location due to the fact that it’s one of the busiest cities with one of the highest driver pay in the ride share industry.


Earnings is a big piece no doubt, that doesn't mean the publications greatest contribution to the body of knowledge on the subject isn't around how to best account for expenses. Expenses should be generally comparable nationwide, so feel free to assume whatever you with for the topline and apply their expense figure to get to a net you can agree with. 

I may not have answered it directly, but I thought I had pretty clearly implied that I cannot guarantee the info provided isn't biased. I have no problem whatsoever admitting that - I don't know why you are fixated on that point. I likewise noted that I cannot do that with any empirical research or clinical studies/trials either. That doesn't mean I believe they are categorically biased or their findings not useful.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Below is a link to an MIT study that comes to a much different conclusion. My issue with this analysis is that it tries to stuff way too many expenses into the calculation in an attempt to arrive at as low of a number as possible. As you can see, they find gross earnings prior to UBER's take to be $22.06; $16.55 net of the take rate. I tend to believe the actual net to the driver is closer to the $22.06 rate. They then assume expenses to be $0.32/mile, which is much higher than my own calculations as presented in this thread (Total, I'm getting $0.1824/mile). They also deduct taxes, which should be excluded for apples-to-apples comparisons across states - further, most people look at comp pre-taxes. McDonalds does advertising "help wanted - starting at $9.26/hour after state, local, and federal taxes" - no, they advertise $13/hr. I also think the generous $0.56/mile tax deduction muddies this analysis.

Some here have complained about the lack of benefits. This study finds the cost of mandatory benefits to be $0.90/hr or $0.045/mile. Total, I'm getting $0.1824/mile before the benefits number, so total I'm getting to max $0.23/mile fully baked or $4.60/hr. Deduct that from whatever you receive gross. 



https://files.epi.org/pdf/145552.pdf


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Except there is actual data behind the 136 page empirical study and none behind yours. You don’t have to believe the piece I posted, but there is no doubt it is a serious examination by serious scholars at top-flight institutions. These folks have their own reputations to defend to their peers and within the scholarly community. I’ve seen no one seriously questioning the rigor of the work besides folks speculating on here because they don’t like the conclusions.


Were there any actual field studies conducted by the scholars?

Did they send undergraduates into the field for an extended period to gather empirical data?

The actual data, that you claim is empirical, seems to be provided by unreliable sources.

Seattle is a long ways away from New York.

By the way, numerous scholars state that coffee is bad for me,

While, on the other hand,

Coffee seems to protect my liver from alcohol.

Seems both sides of the coin are vetted in peer reviewed journals.

Which scholars you gonna believe?


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Below is a link to an MIT study that comes to a much different conclusion. My issue with this analysis is that it





ftupelo said:


> Earnings is a big piece no doubt, that doesn't mean the publications greatest contribution to the body of knowledge on the subject isn't around how to best account for expenses. Expenses should be generally comparable nationwide, so feel free to assume whatever you with for the topline and apply their expense figure to get to a net you can agree with.
> 
> I may not have answered it directly, but I thought I had pretty clearly implied that I cannot guarantee the info provided isn't biased. I have no problem whatsoever admitting that - I don't know why you are fixated on that point. I likewise noted that I cannot do that with any empirical research or clinical studies/trials either. That doesn't mean I believe they are categorically biased or their findings not useful.


Expenses are not generally comparable nation wide.

For instance, the cost of a gallon of gas.

Further, charges for vehicle maintenance and repairs vary greatly between the coasts and most of the heartland.

Seems like a bunch of academics not grounded in real life trying to make the most of their grant money.

By the way, do you know who funded their study?


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Judge and Jury said:


> Expenses are not generally comparable nation wide.
> 
> For instance, the cost of a gallon of gas.
> 
> ...


Expenses vary regionally just as pay levels vary regionally. Further, the expenses for every single driver will vary. The point of the research and of this post is not to come to some exact correct answer. It's to arrive at a net income level that is directionally right.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The current state (July 2021) of Uber/Lyft ridehail in Toronto (Canada), and many Ants not heading back out onto the road due to Government Relief Programs, or not getting their paperwork in order after a long hiatus from Ridehail, has meant a very comfortable $25/hr on a regular basis after my expenses ($1 per 100km in electrons -- EV DRIVER).

This is both due to higher demand and lower supply (as per drivers above), as well as LYFT and UBER throwing some incentives around to get drivers back on the road.

It's been nice, but I do not expect it to last.


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## Gone_in_60_seconds (Jan 21, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> The current state (July 2021) of Uber/Lyft ridehail in Toronto (Canada), and many Ants not heading back out onto the road due to Government Relief Programs, or not getting their paperwork in order after a long hiatus from Ridehail, has meant a very comfortable $25/hr on a regular basis after my expenses ($1 per 100km in electrons -- EV DRIVER).
> 
> This is both due to higher demand and lower supply (as per drivers above), as well as LYFT and UBER throwing some incentives around to get drivers back on the road.
> 
> It's been nice, but I do not expect it to last.


The high gas prices have made a lot of ants realize how unprofitable RS is at base rates. Gas prices 1 year ago were like 30% cheaper around $1.00 /L. So, 30% increase in expenses without any ability to raise rates is a wake up call for minions that they are driving for peanuts. .


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> The high gas prices have made a lot of ants realize how unprofitable RS is at base rates. Gas prices 1 year ago were like 30% cheaper around $1.00 /L. So, 30% increase in expenses without any ability to raise rates is a wake up call for minions that they are driving for peanuts. .


EV is a godsend in these times. Couple that with Uber giving a $1 bonus on each and every ride (Sept 2020-Sept2021 for EV and some hybrids), including connect, and my expenses are more than managed, while the 'typical ant' is operating at a significantly higher expense load.

#ANTKILLER


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> Except there is actual data behind the 136 page empirical study and none behind yours. You don’t have to believe the piece I posted, but there is no doubt it is a serious examination by serious scholars at top-flight institutions. These folks have their own reputations to defend to their peers and within the scholarly community. I’ve seen no one seriously questioning the rigor of the work besides folks speculating on here because they don’t like the conclusions.


Its not the reports conclusions I question Its yours Your headline is this:
*Ants Overcompensated Relative to Skills*
i dint see where report says anything like this. The report doesn't say whether other unskilled workers (who the report actually compares us to are over, under or fairly compensated. and I dont see where the report looks at educated workers at all but you do

and then you say this>

*the researchers concluded that part-time Ants, which they peg as 85% of the population, make $23.25/hour AFTER expenses or $46,500 annually based on 40 hrs. a week for 50 weeks a year.*

You have really twisted the data and the researchers conclusions when you say 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year is part time work and then compare it to what college educated folks are getting paid

As to the report itself


ftupelo said:


> Sir, these are Cornell professors; some of the brightest minds in this country outside of the DLC himself. While I appreciate your input, I’ll trust the brain trust at Cornell, thank you very much.



Yes, Yes they arebut they are doing the study with one hand tied behind their back... I would argue that a study that tried to figure out what a gig worker makes ought to talk to a gig worker or two

But my reak problem here is how you have misrepresented the study


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

oldfart said:


> *the researchers concluded that part-time Ants, which they peg as 85% of the population, make $23.25/hour AFTER expenses or $46,500 annually based on 40 hrs. a week for 50 weeks a year.*
> 
> You have really twisted the data and the researchers conclusions when you say 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year is part time work and then compare it to what college educated folks are getting paid


I think you misconstrued the purpose of that number. Part timers are probably only working 20hr per week, but for the sake of comparison to a job, they simply scaled up the number to a standard 40hr week. They did not imply that 40hr per week is part time.

However, I do agree with you that it is disenguous because when you are only working 15-20hr per week, you are going to cherry pick the good hours, and it wouldn't likely scale to 40hr per week in a linear fashion.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

oldfart said:


> Its not the reports conclusions I question Its yours Your headline is this:
> *Ants Overcompensated Relative to Skills*
> i dint see where report says anything like this. The report doesn't say whether other unskilled workers (who the report actually compares us to are over, under or fairly compensated. and I dont see where the report looks at educated workers at all but you do
> 
> ...


That is my conclusion based on the numbers in the report as compared to what I view as alternative employment options and in relation to what higher-skilled, or at least more highly educated, workers earn. Since college graduate compensation is typically quoted in annual salary, I converted hourly to what an annual salary would be. I wasn't implying 40hrs a week is part-time. I could have just as easily converted the college grad salary to hourly for ease of comparison.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> However, I do agree with you that it is disenguous because when you are only working 15-20hr per week, you are going to cherry pick the good hours, and it wouldn't likely scale to 40hr per week in a linear fashion.


I agree with this as well. I make far above the "average hourly" but as a part timer, I only work hours that pay higher. It would NOT scale up if I worked 40hr/wk. I work weekend nights, sundown to sunup. Friday and Saturday nights. No other time of the week comes close. And I've worked other times of the week to check this. No comparison whatsoever. Full time I'd probably be down to 15 or maybe even 12 an hour.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> I think you misconstrued the purpose of that number. Part timers are probably only working 20hr per week, but for the sake of comparison to a job, they simply scaled up the number to a standard 40hr week. They did not imply that 40hr per week is part time.
> 
> However, I do agree with you that it is disenguous because when you are only working 15-20hr per week, you are going to cherry pick the good hours, and it wouldn't likely scale to 40hr per week in a linear fashion.


I understand he just scaled up the parttimers income to 40 hours. Im trying to make the point that he cant do that, for the reason you say, ie parttimers can cherry pick the hours,but also because the study authors dont consider the cost of the vehicle or maintenance or insurance when talking about parttimers, (The premise is that parttimers would have these expenses anyhow) but they do include these expenses when talking about full timers.


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## Philly heretic (May 27, 2020)

ftupelo said:


> Les Ants,
> 
> I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.
> 
> ...


Do you know how to do math? If you make $30 per hour... You are driving at least 30 miles one way to do it for a total of 50 miles less you receive another ping. 50 miles * $0.50 cost per mile for a used camry = $25 per hour in costs... Which leaves you $5 for your daily lotto? You and your fake news!


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> That is my conclusion based on the numbers in the report as compared to what I view as alternative employment options and in relation to what higher-skilled, or at least more highly educated, workers earn. Since college graduate compensation is typically quoted in annual salary, I converted hourly to what an annual salary would be. I wasn't implying 40hrs a week is part-time. I could have just as easily converted the college grad salary to hourly for ease of comparison.



my point exactly.. Its your conclusion that you presented as the study conclusion


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

oldfart said:


> my point exactly.. Its your conclusion that you presented as the study conclusion


I didn’t attribute the conclusion the the authors. I apologize if it cause confusion.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

@ftupelo I gotta give it to you on sheer tenacity. all this pushback and you're still trying, somehow, to have a productive discussion with some of these Fu2ks. I love the underdog. With superior intelligence, you will prevail!


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Let me put it this way - my salary + bonus even when haircut by 70% (leaving 30% remaining) would still be something you would die for.


well, that's assuming anybody here believes anything you post, wouldn't it? And also, I know you have issues with variables. How would what I did for a living compare to what you fantasize about here? And would anybody really care?

Still think you are quite lost on salary vs hourly. And quite quite lost on if 'gigs' are priced correctly.

You leave out so many variables. Like, for instance, if you were really 'correct' nobody would do a gig position....ever....

<sigh>

98% filter with you, no doubt.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> Expenses vary regionally just as pay levels vary regionally. Further, the expenses for every single driver will vary. The point of the research and of this post is not to come to some exact correct answer. It's to arrive at a net income level that is directionally right.


Ok.

Net income level?

Seems the study is only potentially accurate for the Seattle region.

Extrapolating the findings to describe the entire country is absurd.


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## Uberyouber (Jan 16, 2017)

Yawn...


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## Uberyouber (Jan 16, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> That is my conclusion based on the numbers in the report as compared to what I view as alternative employment options and in relation to what higher-skilled, or at least more highly educated, workers earn. Since college graduate compensation is typically quoted in annual salary, I converted hourly to what an annual salary would be. I wasn't implying 40hrs a week is part-time. I could have just as easily converted the college grad salary to hourly for ease of comparison.


What does what does this have to do with your Bitcoin debacle... ?


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## UberPotomac (Oct 8, 2016)

ftupelo said:


> So, if only you had the ability to be deceitful and unethical, you'd be the CEO of a $90B company? How are either of the fine gentlemen you mentioned deceitful or unethical? Let me guess, they dont pay the Ants enough? That brings me back to the whole point of this post.
> 
> Sure you and the other Ants may want more pay, but what is your basis for believing you deserve more pay?
> 
> To frame this discussion another way, what would be fair pay? What hourly/annual compensation is just for the job?


First , you should drop the arrogant and condescending tone if you wish to have an honest discussion . On regards of the “ fair pay” , what about stick to the original agreement of 80-20 or 75-20 and let the market determine the prices .
Why is it that Capitalusm is great when CEO s and big corporations cash in but as soon as the little guy start making a little more that average , they ll find a way to reduce and control their earnings and find people like yourself that seem to justified and enjoy the fact?


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

UberPotomac said:


> First , you should drop the arrogant and condescending tone if you wish to have an honest discussion . On regards of the “ fair pay” , what about stick to the original agreement of 80-20 or 75-20 and let the market determine the prices .
> Why is it that Capitalusm is great when CEO s and big corporations cash in but as soon as the little guy start making a little more that average , they ll find a way to reduce and control their earnings and find people like yourself that seem to justified and enjoy the fact?


You’re confusing my extreme candor for arrogance. You may have liked the 80/20 arrangement, but that doesn’t make it any more fair. And I do believe the market dictates the price. You are confusing your ability to set price with the market dictated price. UBeR is setting a market clearing price that balances supply and demand, maximizes revenues, and maximizes systemic liquidit.

That’s not how capitalism works. Corporations generally pay what workers are worth in a competitive marketplace. If they didn’t, they would lose workers to other options. Did you consider that since rideshare was an entirely new business model that it would take time to figure out what to pay drivers - management doesn’t have the “right” answer from day one. Did you consider they initially overpaid drivers as an incentive to get the platform flywheel spinning and once they realized the true supply of drivers, they adjusted pay accordingly? Did you ever consider the business model would never work paying drivers what you may have been paid at one point and they they had to rationalize pay to keep the company afloat?


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## UberPotomac (Oct 8, 2016)

ftupelo said:


> You’re confusing my extreme candor for arrogance. You may have liked the 80/20 arrangement, but that doesn’t make it any more fair. And I do believe the market dictates the price. You are confusing your ability to set price with the market dictated price. UBeR is setting a market clearing price that balances supply and demand, maximizes revenues, and maximizes systemic liquidit.
> 
> That’s not how capitalism works. Corporations generally pay what workers are worth in a competitive marketplace. If they didn’t, they would lose workers to other options. Did you consider that since rideshare was an entirely new business model that it would take time to figure out what to pay drivers - management doesn’t have the “right” answer from day one. Did you consider they initially overpaid drivers as an incentive to get the platform flywheel spinning and once they realized the true supply of drivers, they adjusted pay accordingly? Did you ever consider the business model would never work paying drivers what you may have been paid at one point and they they had to rationalize pay to keep the company afloat?


And did you rationalize that no business can survive if they do not cover operating business expenses and generate a profit. How long do you think a driver-owner- operator , because that is what UBER drivers really are can continue providing a service in exchange of rates that do not cover their cost in some cases. It is not rocket science . You came thru like one of this cocky intellectual that never sat on a car but think they are experts on rideshare because they read a paper on rideshare economics . Let me iluminate you , sitting behind the wheel is very different than behind the desk. I guess the ones than they cannot do , teach. Unfortunately,in this case , you have to present your argument to a group of people that actually drive rideshare for living,not just a room on students or uninterested subjects.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

UberPotomac said:


> And did you rationalize that no business can survive if they do not cover operating business expenses and generate a profit. How long do you think a driver-owner- operator , because that is what UBER drivers really are can continue providing a service in exchange of rates that do not cover their cost in some cases. It is not rocket science . You came thru like one of this cocky intellectual that never sat on a car but think they are experts on rideshare because they read a paper on rideshare economics . Let me iluminate you , sitting behind the wheel is very different than behind the desk. I guess the ones than they cannot do , teach. Unfortunately,in this case , you have to present your argument to a group of people that actually drive rideshare for living,not just a room on students or uninterested subjects.


I fully understand that the drivers will need to make their business work or else they will drop out of the supply pool. If enough drivers drop out, U/L will need to raise pay to lure them back in, as they have been doing recently to counteract the impacts from Covid and governments’ response to the pandemic.

I am both a driver and an intellectual. I’ve been an ant for 6-7 years now, so I seen the ups and downs and everything in between. I started when I had relatively little to my name while driving a ~8yo Honda Civic. I have since become a multi-millionaire through hard work and ingenuity. But, just because I am very wealthy now, doesn’t mean I don’t still drive, or forget my roots and where I came from.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> @ftupelo I gotta give it to you on sheer tenacity. all this pushback and you're still trying, somehow, to have a productive discussion with some of these Fu2ks. I love the underdog. With superior intelligence, you will prevail!


I appreciate the support. Since I am a gentleman and a scholar, I enjoy the process of testing my ideas and exposing them to criticism. I have no problem admitting that I don't know everything and don't have all of the answers. I am intellectually curious and defending my positions and testing my hypotheses publicly against much opposition not only allows me to hone my own reasoning skills, but it also exposes me to ideas and concepts that I may not have considered. 

If you aren't familiar Dunning–Kruger effect, it's an interesting concept that I am a big believer in. I am exceptionally learned and know enough about a broad swath of topics to firmly place myself in the nadir of the graph below (on most topics) and I have no loss of pride in admitting that. What you will primarily find on these boards are folks on the "I'm so great" point of the curve. They know little, but have supreme confidence in everything they say. The over-confidence may allow them to come off as intelligent or believable to other posters of low competence, but they aren't fooling the reasonably intelligent amongst us.


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## UberPotomac (Oct 8, 2016)

We have enough work dealing with customers to came back here and trying to reason to a preacher millionaire playing Uber driver . In other times I could give you a rum for your money for hours but O am too tired and prefer to use my time on a more productive way . Good luck and goodbye.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

UberPotomac said:


> We have enough work dealing with customers to came back here and trying to reason to a preacher millionaire playing Uber driver . In other times I could give you a rum for your money for hours but O am too tired and prefer to use my time on a more productive way . Good luck and goodbye.


Exercising one's ability to reason, then clearly, concisely, and convincingly communicating the conclusion to others through the written word seems like a pretty productive way to spend time.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> I appreciate the support. Since I am a gentleman and a scholar, I enjoy the process of testing my ideas and exposing them to criticism. I have no problem admitting that I don't know everything and don't have all of the answers. I am intellectually curious and defending my positions and testing my hypotheses publicly against much opposition not only allows me to hone my own reasoning skills, but it also exposes me to ideas and concepts that I may not have considered.
> 
> If you aren't familiar Dunning–Kruger effect, it's an interesting concept that I am a big believer in. I am exceptionally learned and know enough about a broad swath of topics to firmly place myself in the nadir of the graph below (on most topics) and I have no loss of pride in admitting that. What you will primarily find on these boards are folks on the "I'm so great" point of the curve. They know little, but have supreme confidence in everything they say. The over-confidence may allow them to come off as intelligent or believable to other posters of low competence, but they aren't fooling the reasonably intelligent amongst us.
> 
> View attachment 607066


Seems to me, as an "I know nothing" poster, that you are actually on the opposite side of the graph than what your boasts claim.

Guessing you need a new nickname, other than the ones coined by your bromancers on the Dallas forum.

My choice: buckethead.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Judge and Jury said:


> Seems to me, as an "I know nothing" poster, that you are actually on the opposite side of the graph than what your boasts claim.
> 
> Guessing you need a new nickname, other than the ones coined by your bromancers on the Dallas forum.
> 
> My choice: buckethead.


I would not characterize myself as a know-nothing. Quite to the contrary. I spent many years at the finest institutions of higher learning that this country has to offer to complete three highly regarded degrees - all in very different fields. I am highly learned. The fact that I am so well versed in so many topics, is why I place myself firmly at the middle bottom of the curve. I would certainly place myself on the right hand side of the curve with regards to some topics. 

Most here believe they are on the far right, but sadly belong on the far left.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> . I spent many years at the finest institutions of higher learning that this country has to offer to complete three highly regarded degrees


and yet you chose RS and to spend a great deal of time on this forum. Hum. 98%; that's your filter. hahahahahaha


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SHalester said:


> and yet you chose RS and to spend a great deal of time on this forum. Hum. 98%; that's your filter. hahahahahaha


That is correct - I drive Uber for the ancillary benefits and I post here as a sort of charity work for the ants and to work towards elevating this profession to its rightful place in society.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> I drive Uber for the ancillary benefits and I post here as a sort of charity work


I think Dallas forum is calling you.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

SHalester said:


> I think Dallas forum is calling you.


I've already provided copious services gratis to the Dallas boards. The rest of the Ants deserve my enlightened perspective as well.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

In some sick twist of fate, I actually miss this exchange. Think I need to get my head checked. I'll call the doc in the morning and get some of those happy pills.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Ted Fink said:


> In some sick twist of fate, I actually miss this exchange. Think I need to get my head checked. I'll call the doc in the morning and get some of those happy pills.


They don’t call me the most prolific and preeminent poster to ever grace these here boards for no reason. I’m the best ever. I’m the most brutal, vicious, and most ruthless champion there’s ever been. There’s no one can stop me. I’m Alexander. I’m the best ever. There’s never been anybody as ruthless. I’m Sonny Liston. I’m Jack Dempsey. There’s no one like me. I’m from their cloth. There’s no one that can match me. My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable. And I’m just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Jesus.


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> They don’t call me the most prolific and preeminent poster to ever grace these here boards for no reason. I’m the best ever. I’m the most brutal, vicious, and most ruthless champion there’s ever been. There’s no one can stop me. I’m Alexander. I’m the best ever. There’s never been anybody as ruthless. I’m Sonny Liston. I’m Jack Dempsey. There’s no one like me. I’m from their cloth. There’s no one that can match me. My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable. And I’m just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Jesus.


Funny post.

So, you want to eat a baby in the name of Jesus?

By the way, a SWAT team outside your house could take you down in 60 seconds.

Further, a four man home invasion crew could devastate your life in 40 seconds.

Guessing you'd be whimpering like a little girl, pooping in your pants, and begging for your life.

Do you have any weapons in your residence outside of a fly swatter? Could you defeat a home invasion robbery?

Easy to be ferocious on an internet forum.

Entirely different situation in a war zone.

Please go back to the Dallas forum, where bromances seem to bloom, life is simple, and the Cowboys never make the playoffs.


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## Uberyouber (Jan 16, 2017)

ftupelo said:


> They don’t call me the most prolific and preeminent poster to ever grace these here boards for no reason. I’m the best ever. I’m the most brutal, vicious, and most ruthless champion there’s ever been. There’s no one can stop me. I’m Alexander. I’m the best ever. There’s never been anybody as ruthless. I’m Sonny Liston. I’m Jack Dempsey. There’s no one like me. I’m from their cloth. There’s no one that can match me. My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable. And I’m just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Jesus.


You're more of a 5'6 125 lb featherweight...

Still funny though...


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

ftupelo said:


> They don’t call me the most prolific and preeminent poster to ever grace these here boards for no reason. I’m the best ever. I’m the most brutal, vicious, and most ruthless champion there’s ever been. There’s no one can stop me. I’m Alexander. I’m the best ever. There’s never been anybody as ruthless. I’m Sonny Liston. I’m Jack Dempsey. There’s no one like me. I’m from their cloth. There’s no one that can match me. My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable. And I’m just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Jesus.


Sorry, Mike. You're a great fighter, but you'll always play second fiddle to Ali.


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## ftupelo (Mar 18, 2018)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> Sorry, Mike. You're a great fighter, but you'll always play second fiddle to Ali.


I knew someone would get the reference.


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