# Doing Under The Table rides



## DFWDavis (Jun 26, 2015)

I am on a web site with local neighbors and I posted that I drive for Uber, and I have had a few people ask if I would just take cash for taking them to the airport. Has anybody accepted these offers for doing rides outside of Uber for cash??


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## ChrisInABQ (Oct 21, 2014)

You're gonna get an earful from this forum on liability risk. Had I never driven for Uber, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Now aware of the risk...nope.

You get into an accident with one of those pax, your fault or not, and all the liability is on you...not the personal policy providers. You're still a "for hire", but without the liability coverage for the person paying. Too risky for me.


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## DFWDavis (Jun 26, 2015)

Good point, good point...


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

ChrisInABQ said:


> You're gonna get an earful from this forum on liability risk. Had I never driven for Uber, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Now aware of the risk...nope.
> 
> You get into an accident with one of those pax, your fault or not, and all the liability is on you...not the personal policy providers. You're still a "for hire", but without the liability coverage for the person paying. Too risky for me.


Correct!!


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## Backdash (Jan 28, 2015)

If you do it and have an accident and inform the concerned parties that you are driving for hire you are hozed, fuxord, crushed or you name it.
If you do it and have an accident and inform the concerned parties of nothing about why there are passengers in your car, you know like when you have an accident with friends or family in the car, then nothing will happen.

Not saying its a good or bad idea, up to you.


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

DFWDavis said:


> I am on a web site with local neighbors and I posted that I drive for Uber, and I have had a few people ask if I would just take cash for taking them to the airport. Has anybody accepted these offers for doing rides outside of Uber for cash??


The only way you should even consider doing this is by obtaining Commercial Livery Insurance ... $431/mo in Texas for $500K limits. If you live in affluent neighborhood or are transporting high value pax (attorneys, doctors, politicians) then I'd go for >$1M limits. Also since these rides will not be on the Uber books you'll need to check with your city and the airports you driving to about their ground transportation license requirements; because most airports have ground transportation licenses and associated fees.

If you don't secure both Commercial Livery Insurance and the required ground transportation licenses ... and get into an accident; then I hope you have extremely deep pockets and you look good in orange.


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## Nova828 (Oct 15, 2014)

Ummm, aren't we overthinking this a little? All the OP wants to do is give neighbors a ride to the airport. Ever since I was 17 years old with my first 1985 Subaru GL I would give rides to friends, friends of friends, co-workers, neighbors etc to various places and sometimes they would give me "gas money" and sometimes not. Haven't we all? I'm pretty sure in the entire history of people owning cars and giving people rides and getting a little money for it there hasn't been a single instance of someone getting arrested or insurance not paying just for doing that!


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## UberLou (May 5, 2015)

You have a table in your car?


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

Nova828 said:


> Ummm, aren't we overthinking this a little? All the OP wants to do is give neighbors a ride to the airport. Ever since I was 17 years old with my first 1985 Subaru GL I would give rides to friends, friends of friends, co-workers, neighbors etc to various places and sometimes they would give me "gas money" and sometimes not. Haven't we all? I'm pretty sure in the entire history of people owning cars and giving people rides and getting a little money for it there hasn't been a single instance of someone getting arrested or insurance not paying just for doing that!


Possibly ... though times have changed. And the primary reason that the neighbors have asked him to give them rides to the airport "under the table" is due to the fact that he is an Uber driver. So the expectation is that he is providing a transportation service (not just giving a neighbor a ride for "gas money"). Maybe the OP will be fine and nothing will arise from his little side venture ... however, if the expectation from the pax is that he is a car service and they are getting the same insurance coverage as they would had they hired Uber, taxi or other legal transportation company ... then he might have some issues should he get into an accident. At the end of the day if 1 neighbor asked for a ride to the airport for gas money, I'd do it ... but if I were taking neighbors regularly to the airport and their intent was to bypass the cost of hiring an Uber, taxi or shuttle ... then I wouldn't unless I had Commercial Livery Insurance. In the end the OP will probably be fine ... but serious issues could also arise ... how much is the OP willing to gamble; I wouldn't


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

This is where UBER has bastardised true Rideshare.

Rideshare IS LEGAL! Where the driver sets a cost per seat to cover costs of a trip that is going in the direction of the DRIVER'S Choice, at a time that is convenient to THE DRIVER!

UBERX is a ********** service, NOT RIDESHARE!

DFWDavis ask your local transport department for clarification, you are not offering a TNC or Taxi service, you're a neighbour (which you can prove) and your Neighbour is helping you with costs that you both agree on prior to the commencement of the trip


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## LAuberX (Jun 3, 2014)

Doing some "under the table" rides sounds like true ride share to me...


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## JimmyJ (Feb 22, 2015)

Trust me once those friends and neighbors are in an accident they quickly go from friends and neighbors to PLAINTIFF. 

Accidents do happen and if there's an injury it can get ugly when your not properly insured.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Yup, yup, yup, what the guy from Jersey and the retired Tejas Police said, yup, yup, yup...........

How many times has anyone read, or heard, in the news about friends' becoming bitter enemies when a legal matter arises between them? Yes, they could have a spoken agreement, a "gentlemen's agreement" or whatever. Let a collison occur, let someone get hurt and things suddenly change. The spoken agreement is easy to deny---assuming that it had any legal force from the beginning, which most do not. Insurance contracts, actions and occurrences are difficult to deny.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

Let's say you do get into a wreck. Did the neighbor pay you at the beginning or was said neighbor going to pay you at the end of the ride?

Chances are it is the latter. Just as much as the neighbor can say he hired you for driving him to the airport and you should cover his/her medical costs for up to $1mm.. you can also say, "Money was never exchanged. Therefore I was not hired."

Oh, but it was to your understanding that he would of given you gas money.

"Sure it was my understanding, but I had every intention to decline and would have declined, Yes it is true, that I drive for Uber. I was headed to the airport to work on the Uber platform anyways. and my neighbor needed a ride. Why would I charge my neighbor for taking them somewhere I was going?" *sniffle, sniffle*

In the end, it is a dark gray area, unless rider is really a close neighbor that lives on the same street as you, I wouldn't do it, and if they were a true neighbor, I would not charge, unless I really, really need the money.

If you are caught up in the legal system,  (chances are slim if you know how to drive safe. - wouldn't it be the other drivers fault and you won't have to worry since their insurance will cover it?), there is always a way to make it swing into your favor. The law here in America is not black & white, just like this the OP's question. This is why many attorney's exist. If it was black and white, there would be no need to even argue in court. 

Now, I wouldn't worry too much about stressing your neighbors about the legal issues, just tell them quickly, that you guys are not covered under Uber's policy, so you are just friends should anything happen. However, once you get into a wreck and If both of you are still conscious, at that point, tell them, stress to them how important it is that you were not hired by them. This ride was free. No money was exchanged. Your car, your injuries, and if the rider has any "injuries", will NOT GET PAID BY YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY, IF YOU TELL A SINGLE SOUL YOU WERE HIRED.

But, Remember, like I said before, if your neighbor ends up being a money chaser, and you end up in court, there is always ways to bend the judgment into your favor. Of course, if your neighbor turns out to be one of these people, we will see you on the 5 o clock news.


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## JimmyJ (Feb 22, 2015)

Trebor said:


> Let's say you do get into a wreck. Did the neighbor pay you at the beginning or was said neighbor going to pay you at the end of the ride?
> 
> Chances are it is the latter. Just as much as the neighbor can say he hired you for driving him to the airport and you should cover his/her medical costs for up to $1mm.. you can also say, "Money was never exchanged. Therefore I was not hired."
> 
> ...


I'll stick by my original statement - friends quickly turn into plaintiffs when they smell money.

Also, your whole scenario of convincing your neighbor to side with you and not sue you will lead to lots of stress and lost sleep while they decide - not worth a few bucks for an air port ride IMHO.


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## MrsUberJax (Sep 2, 2014)

Do not do this. Your personal auto policy strictly prohibits commercial use of your vehicle and will not cover you if you are in an accident. If you think that your neighbors and "friends" will keep your mouth shut about you being a "for hire" driver, you are wrong. Your passengers will automatically assume a defensive position and will sue you and take everything that you have. The solution to this is commercial for hire insurance, which requires a FVH license in your city. Don't risk it.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

I forgot to add. Your neighbor wants you to pick them up so it can be cheaper than Uber. At the very least, you should charge the same rate before your Uber fee's. If they want to pay you less, like the 80% after Uber fee's, in no way does this benefit you.


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## UberBlackPr1nce (Dec 28, 2014)

If you want to be a taxi driver that bad drive a taxi.


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## Instigator2000 (Mar 6, 2015)

so your neighbor thinks so little of you to pay you less then uber for airport trip?

or somehow she thinks it is convenient for you to drive her as opposed to another Uber Driver?

here is a solution, find out what time she needs to get to the airport and just be at your house and turn on your App and she books you for the trip?

but she doesn't want to do that does she because she wants to pay you less than the uber cost of the trip and leave you in the shit if you are in an accident etc etc?

don't be a fool.


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

Uber is not the be all and end all of ********** services. It may be the most organised and distributed, but it's certainly not the new kid on the block. Here are a few others in your neck of the woods DFWDavis

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/trv/5103391756.html

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/trv/5072507889.html (This guy suggests a "Donation")

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/trv/5111874830.html (This guy is desperate!)


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## JaxBeachDriver (Nov 27, 2014)

MrsUberJax said:


> If you think that your neighbors and "friends" will keep your mouth shut about you being a "for hire" driver, you are wrong.


Particularly if they're injured!


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## Seastriper (Jul 1, 2015)

JimmyJ said:


> Trust me once those friends and neighbors are in an accident they quickly go from friends and neighbors to PLAINTIFF.
> 
> Accidents do happen and if there's an injury it can get ugly when your not properly insured.


Exactly!!!
Unless you make them sign a liability waiver, not mention any money, and only accept cash! Then it's your word against theirs....
CYA


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

JaxBeachDriver said:


> Particularly if they're injured!


Exactly! 
He didn't say:"so I was hanging out at my neighbor's house", or "Yesterday, at our neighborhood BBQ"; he said he he was on a local website with neighbors.

Sounds like "acquaintances", not friends.

Besides.... We all know what kind of "crazy people "one can meet on an online forum!!!!! hahahaha!!!!


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## JaxBeachDriver (Nov 27, 2014)

Trebor said:


> Chances are it is the latter. Just as much as the neighbor can say he hired you for driving him to the airport and you should cover his/her medical costs for up to $1mm.. you can also say, "Money was never exchanged. Therefore I was not hired."


Right, that's totally going to work! Because the other party won't produce emails/text messages proving that the arrangement was a commercial arrangement and not a friendly one.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

If my immediate neighbours ask me, in person, to take them somewhere, I decline the compensation, usually. Usually, it is somewhere close, such as to the local subway stop, so I do not ask for anything. If someone wants to travel some distance, I do expect to be paid, it will be in the cab and I will turn on the meter. The insurance will not cover me if I am high-flagging, as that is illegal and the insurance policy contains exclusions for illegal acts.

If it is a neighbour on the neighbourhood listserve, I expect to be paid, always. I did have one on the listserve ask me specifically to take her somewhere for UberX rates and in the UberXmobile, but off the Uber platform. I declined, politely. She pressed me. I stated that I would not "be available". She continued to press me, asking when I would be available and stating a need for discretion. Now, I had a _pretty good_ idea what she was up to. I guess that her husband could get into her Uber account, or, always saw the bills for the card linked to her Uber account. I replied again, stating that "I did not know my availability right now", and, even if I did, I could not and would not carry her off the platform. If I were to carry her, I informed her, it would have to be either on the Uber platform or in the taxi with the meter _ON_*. *I cited the insurance, legal and regulatory circumstances that governed. I concluded that I was not available right now and did not know when I would be.

That did not sit quite right with her, so she accused me of several things that I will not repeat here, unless someone is interested. I did not dignify those accusations with a response. I guess that she found another way to get where she was going to accomplish that which she desired.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

"High-flagging" is carrying a customer without turning on the meter. You may be too young to remember this, but the old mechanical meters used to have a flag. When the meter was *OFF*, thus the cab was available, the flag would be at twelve o'clock, in the "up" or "high" position. Thus, if the driver were carrying a passenger with the meter not turned *ON*, the flag would still be in the "up" or "high" position. Thus, "high-flagging".

When a passenger boarded, the driver would "drop" the flag to turn *ON* the meter. Dropping the flag to the three or six o'clock position turned *ON * both time and mileage. Putting it at the nine o'clock position charged mileage only, no time. In fact, at the end of the trip, the driver was supposed to move the flag to the nine o'clock position until the customer paid, so that the customer could see his fare on the meter. Once the driver rendered the change, if required, and the passenger disembarked, he returned the flag to the twelve o'clock position to turn *OFF *completely the meter and be ready for his next customer.

Thus, sometimes you will hear references to a "meter drop", "flag drop" or simply "drop". This refers to what the meter reads upon boarding the cab, what it "costs just to get in", or "what you owe when you get in". In the District of Columbia, the drop is three dollars fifty. One of the things that the drop is supposed to do is protect the consumer against being taken on a scenic tour. As a general rule, it really is _not_ in the driver's best interest to take the customer on a scenic tour or through traffic. You do your best, still, by delivering your customer to his destination as quickly as possible and moving on to your next customer. Sadly, more than a few cab drivers fail to understand this. What is even more ridiculous is that the same Rocket Scientist cab driver who complains that the waiting time is not worth it will try to get stuck in traffic or waste his time on a scenic route so that he can charge his customer more.

Some jursidictions permit/require high flagging for certain trips, such as those with a flat rate designated by the regulatory authority, such as from an airport to a downtown area. Some jurisdictions require turning on the meter for a flat rate trip, but the driver will select a different rate setting for the trip, thus the meter reads the flat rate immediately, or, the meter will start at the drop rate and count, but stop counting when the flat rate has been reached. Digital meters allow this, while this was difficult, impractical, if not, impossible for a mechanical meter.

......probably more than you wanted to know, but there you go. In addition, I have a reputation on this forum that I must maintain.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

You know what really cracks me up is how many users on this forum will complain day in/ day out, that Uber's insurance is worthless. Yet, when I come across a post like this.. They freak out, asking why you don't do the ride on the Uber Platform for "Insurance reasons."


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Trebor said:


> You know what really cracks me up is how many users on this forum will complain day in/ day out, that Uber's insurance is worthless. Yet, when I come across a post like this.. They freak out, asking why you don't do the ride on the Uber Platform for "Insurance reasons."


Exactly


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## Bo Peep (Feb 3, 2018)

Dude just have them sign a waivor wouldn't that be legit? 

Or just use bitcoin bro

i would personally do cash jobs because the money uber would get you will get

and its convienent for people you feel comfortable with 

and they would pry pay you EXTRA to use cash because like me, i dont have a credit card and verified uber so i dont want to mess with the hassle of all that I'd just rather pay cash everytime

But I also have a permit to carry and conceal so I always have a pistol on me 

you can never be too safe

Just because you are an Uber driver does that mean you can never do favors for friends / take people places for gas? What about if you mow landscaping business does that mean you can mow lawns for cash on the side? Myabe not with the company equipment but on your own time, **** it


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## Pedro Paramo66 (Jan 17, 2018)

Sydney Uber said:


> This is where UBER has bastardised true Rideshare.
> 
> Rideshare IS LEGAL! Where the driver sets a cost per seat to cover costs of a trip that is going in the direction of the DRIVER'S Choice, at a time that is convenient to THE DRIVER!
> 
> ...


For all the cheap, disgusting, frugal, shameless, entitled riders that doesn't matter, such ridiculous cheap fares worth any risk
Lol


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## Bo Peep (Feb 3, 2018)

No

I'm just saying that as a rider, I would pay MORE just because I have cash and it would be more convienent for me to just pay in cash I would gladly pay more.

Just me


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## woodywho (Sep 4, 2017)

Another Uber Driver said:


> When a passenger boarded, the driver would "drop" the flag to turn *ON* the meter. Dropping the flag to the three or six o'clock position turned *ON * both time and mileage. Putting it at the nine o'clock position charged mileage only, no time. In fact, at the end of the trip, the driver was supposed to move the flag to the nine o'clock position until the customer paid, so that the customer could see his fare on the meter. Once the driver rendered the change, if required, and the passenger disembarked, he returned the flag to the twelve o'clock position to turn *OFF *completely the meter and be ready for his next customer.
> 
> Thus, sometimes you will hear references to a "meter drop", "flag drop" or simply "drop". This refers to what the meter reads upon boarding the cab, what it "costs just to get in", or "what you owe when you get in". In the District of Columbia, the drop is three dollars fifty. One of the things that the drop is supposed to do is protect the consumer against being taken on a scenic tour. As a general rule, it r


WOW you just took me back 30+ years


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## AuxCordBoston (Dec 3, 2016)

OP was last on this site on 11/3/2016.


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## FormerTaxiDriver (Oct 24, 2017)

I did a few under the table rides when I first started, then one regular got pissed off at me and made threats about reporting me to Uber. That was the last time. Never again, and I won't give my phone number out either. Somebody high on drugs tipped me over the fare amount, then reported to Uber that she paid me cash for the trip. I contested the claim and did not have to pay the funds back.


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

Short version: DON'T DO IT.

You'll lose. The folks won't pay you as much, you'll get stiffed for cancels and wait time, and you'll remove yourself from the market when you most need to be available. "Friends" also have a complete disregard for your schedule.

That said, there are some folks I'll happily take around. My criteria are simple: if I'm not willing to do it for free, they can just use the app. For example, I'll gladly take my mother grocery shopping.


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## FormerTaxiDriver (Oct 24, 2017)

Karen Stein said:


> Short version: DON'T DO IT.
> 
> You'll lose. The folks won't pay you as much, you'll get stiffed for cancels and wait time, and you'll remove yourself from the market when you most need to be available. "Friends" also have a complete disregard for your schedule.
> 
> That said, there are some folks I'll happily take around. My criteria are simple: if I'm not willing to do it for free, they can just use the app. For example, I'll gladly take my mother grocery shopping.


I agree 100%!

I will not sacrifice my life for the conveinence of others.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

DFWDavis said:


> I am on a web site with local neighbors and I posted that I drive for Uber, and I have had a few people ask if I would just take cash for taking them to the airport. Has anybody accepted these offers for doing rides outside of Uber for cash??


TOS violations aside, under no condition would I accept cash. If you were to get in an accident, the insurance implications might be severe, you could be sued and your insurance company would drop you, leaving you to bear the full brunt of lawyers/lawsuits, etc.

But, there is a greater crime happening here, without insurance to protect your passenger, if they are injured, are you well off enough to pay their medical bills?

I doubt it.

If it's a friend, just take them for free, and then you're just someone taking a friend to the airport and you and they are covered by your personal insurance. If it's an Uber customer, never trust them to protect you if they ever are served a summons and have to testify in court as to what happened.


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

I have full blown commercial livery insurance ($430/mo) and I don't accept trips that are not connected to an app. In Texas, it violates state law to take pax trip without a matched trip on the app. Definitely not worth the risk.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Backdash said:


> If you do it and have an accident and inform the concerned parties that you are driving for hire you are hozed, fuxord, crushed or you name it.
> If you do it and have an accident and inform the concerned parties of nothing about why there are passengers in your car, you know like when you have an accident with friends or family in the car, then nothing will happen.
> 
> Not saying its a good or bad idea, up to you.


Nothing will happen except prison time for insurance fraud when your passenger, who promised to lie, decides not to go to prison with you.



Trebor said:


> Let's say you do get into a wreck. Did the neighbor pay you at the beginning or was said neighbor going to pay you at the end of the ride?
> 
> Chances are it is the latter. Just as much as the neighbor can say he hired you for driving him to the airport and you should cover his/her medical costs for up to $1mm.. you can also say, "Money was never exchanged. Therefore I was not hired."
> 
> ...


Hey, let's turn a $20 airport ride into a lifetime of debt along with prison time, unless, of course, your neighbor is willing to commit insurance fraud with you. But don't worry if they won't because you can pile on mountains of civil and criminal defense legal bills too!

Great advise.


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## Merc7186 (Jul 8, 2017)

This thread will become a future 'Uber ruined my life' thread after one person blows him in or gets into an accident.


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## fusionuber (Nov 27, 2017)

RamzFanz said:


> Nothing will happen except prison time for insurance fraud when your passenger, who promised to lie, decides not to go to prison with you.
> 
> Hey, let's turn a $20 airport ride into a lifetime of debt along with prison time, unless, of course, your neighbor is willing to commit insurance fraud with you. But don't worry if they won't because you can pile on mountains of civil and criminal defense legal bills too!
> 
> Great advise.


spoken like a true minnesota *****hhhh..

Cash Rules everything


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Oscar Levant said:


> TOS violations aside, under no condition would I accept cash. If you were to get in an accident, the insurance implications might be severe, you could be sued and your insurance company would drop you, leaving you to bear the full brunt of lawyers/lawsuits, etc.
> 
> But, there is a greater crime happening here, without insurance to protect your passenger, if they are injured, are you well off enough to pay their medical bills?
> 
> ...


Technjcally it is not against the TOS. You are allowed to develop business activities outside of uuber. That is in the contract. Your only obligation is to complete a request you accept. Whatever business relationship you develop wuth the pax after that contractual ride ends is nond of ubers business.



FormerTaxiDriver said:


> I did a few under the table rides when I first started, then one regular got pissed off at me and made threats about reporting me to Uber. That was the last time. Never again, and I won't give my phone number out either. Somebody high on drugs tipped me over the fare amount, then reported to Uber that she paid me cash for the trip. I contested the claim and did not have to pay the funds back.


However, as shown above, it wont stop a pax from falsely reporting you to uber for something else.



Ziggy said:


> I have full blown commercial livery insurance ($430/mo) and I don't accept trips that are not connected to an app. In Texas, it violates state law to take pax trip without a matched trip on the app. Definitely not worth the risk.


State laws very although many states require some kind of livery license or permit to operate as a for hire passenger vehicle.


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## rickasmith98 (Sep 26, 2016)

Remember even if your neighbor agrees to your story and says it the right way, one slip of the tongue that you drive for Uber period, not on that trip but at all could get your insurance canceled and they deny the claim for that accident, even though you weren't for hire on that trip.

The only time anyone should consider doing under the table rides is if you are a young person and have no assets that could be put at risk.


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## freddieman (Oct 24, 2016)

DFWDavis said:


> I am on a web site with local neighbors and I posted that I drive for Uber, and I have had a few people ask if I would just take cash for taking them to the airport. Has anybody accepted these offers for doing rides outside of Uber for cash??


Why not? Just makes sure u do the friendship handshake.


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## Julescase (Mar 29, 2017)

ChrisInABQ said:


> You're gonna get an earful from this forum on liability risk. Had I never driven for Uber, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Now aware of the risk...nope.
> 
> You get into an accident with one of those pax, your fault or not, and all the liability is on you...not the personal policy providers. You're still a "for hire", but without the liability coverage for the person paying. Too risky for me.


As long as a driver has car insurance, there's not a lot to worry about. I give friends rides, I drive family members to the store, and my car insurance will go into action should there be any mishaps.


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## RedANT (Aug 9, 2016)

In the past I've driven friends to the airport and they offered me cash for gas. How is that any different? Relax and stop applying Uber rules to everything you do on your own time.


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## Whitney Delawyer (Dec 17, 2017)

Anybody that I would offer to drive outside of Uber, I would do it for free. If I'm willing to drive them somewhere, its because I know they would do the same for me or they already have.
If you want to stay friends with someone, dont bring money into the mix.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

fusionuber said:


> spoken like a true minnesota *****hhhh..
> 
> Cash Rules everything


And you'll be making a lot of other people the rulers if you do cash trips.


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## El Janitor (Feb 22, 2016)

As long as you go offline and take down your trade dress, you can take money from anyone at anytime and drive them wherever you like. You just can't claim that it's an Uber ride, or a Lyft ride. Nothing wrong with collecting some gas money from friends, or family to take them somewhere.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

El Janitor said:


> As long as you go offline and take down your trade dress, you can take money from anyone at anytime and drive them wherever you like. You just can't claim that it's an Uber ride, or a Lyft ride. Nothing ride with collecting some gas money for friends, or family to take them somewhere.


Just not smart in any way.

Jesus dude, you're uninsured and no cash rider is going to jail for you.


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## htboston (Feb 22, 2016)

DFWDavis said:


> I am on a web site with local neighbors and I posted that I drive for Uber, and I have had a few people ask if I would just take cash for taking them to the airport. Has anybody accepted these offers for doing rides outside of Uber for cash??


if you are getting paid more, then why not? just tell your paxs that if you get into an accident, then lie and say you are their friend giving them a ride. same thing with insurance. make sure they follow thru with the lie too. if you know they can't follow thru 100% with the lie, then I would say no.

friends give friends free rides all the time


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

htboston said:


> if you are getting paid more, then why not? just tell your paxs that if you get into an accident, then lie and say you are their friend giving them a ride. same thing with insurance. make sure they follow thru with the lie too. if you know they can't follow thru 100% with the lie, then I would say no.
> 
> friends give friends free rides all the time


Your profile picture compliments your comment.


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## El Janitor (Feb 22, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> Just not smart in any way.
> 
> Jesus dude, you're uninsured and no cash rider is going to jail for you.


I'm not sure what kind of personal insurance policy you have, but my insurance covers my passengers too. Maybe you should get better insurance, or up your personal policy, so that your kids are covered when you take them to school, or if you take a family member to the market. You never know when you might get into an accident.


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

The main reason most people try to set up "private" rides is that they think they can save money by keeping Uber out of it. Who's pocket is that coming out of?


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## rickasmith98 (Sep 26, 2016)

El Janitor said:


> I'm not sure what kind of personal insurance policy you have, but my insurance covers my passengers too. Maybe you should get better insurance, or up your personal policy, so that your kids are covered when you take them to school, or if you take a family member to the market. You never know when you might get into an accident.


It's not that our insurance doesn't cover passengers because it does, it's that all of our insurance polices have riders that we cannot under any circumstance drive for hire and doing so will result in immediate cancellation. And not telling them we're doing it constitutes insurance fraud.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

steveK2016 said:


> Technjcally it is not against the TOS. You are allowed to develop business activities outside of uuber. That is in the contract. Your only obligation is to complete a request you accept. Whatever business relationship you develop wuth the pax after that contractual ride ends is nond of ubers business.


You are allowed to develop non competing biz outside of Uber, as though you might be right for TOS on rideshares, local taxi regs and possibly your state PUC regs won't allow it unless you have a state limo/vehicle-for-hire (called TCP in CA) charter or local taxi license on your vehicle and violation of those laws might be a violation of Uber TOS.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Oscar Levant said:


> You are allowed to develop non competing biz outside of Uber, as though you might be right for TOS on rideshares, local taxi regs and possibly your state PUC regs won't allow it unless you have a state limo/vehicle-for-hire (called TCP in CA) charter or local taxi license on your vehicle.


It does not say that. If they wanted to only allow you to persuit non-compete business, it would say that. That is how contracts work. You cannot assume that people will read between the lines. If it does not explicitly say non-compete then there is no non-compete in the contract.

This is the exact wording of the contract



> You acknowledge and agree that you have complete discretion to provide services or otherwise engage in other business or employment activities. For the sake of clarity, you understand that you retain the complete right to; (i) use other software application services in addition to the Uber Services; and (ii) engage in any other occupation or business.


No where in that can anyone reasonable extrapolate a non-compete statement.

*Complete discretion*. *Any*. Other. Occupation.

Nothing excluding further livery services.

Regardless of what local laws may prevent you from providing further livery service, youre statement was that it was against the TOS. It is not.

Now if You need to jump through additional hoops, such as local business license, livery permits, commercial insurance, that is the individuals responsibility to make sure their service is of the legal variety.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

rickasmith98 said:


> It's not that our insurance doesn't cover passengers because it does, it's that all of our insurance polices have riders that we cannot under any circumstance drive for hire and doing so will result in immediate cancellation. And not telling them we're doing it constitutes insurance fraud.


Most insurance companies that cover rideshares, DO NOT cover your passenger while the Uber App is in the "start" mode, and, if it's off, then it rests on "if you accept cash for the ride", Your private insurance is not considered commercial insurance.



steveK2016 said:


> It does not say that. If they wanted to only allow you to persuit non-compete business, it would say that. That is how contracts work. You cannot assume that people will read between the lines. If it does not explicitly say non-compete then there is no non-compete in the contract.
> 
> This is the exact wording of the contract


You are still violating PUC and local taxi laws, and is that a violation of your insurance? (yes) and if that's a violation of your insurance, it means you are not covered, and if you are not covered THAT is a violation of TOS. Because it would have been redundant, I imagine lawyers didn't see the need for that specific language. And, it doesn't even have to be in the contract, it's on your partner site, no insurance, no rides. (but I believe it is in the TOS, nevertheless). I suspect the law will look at all of it as the same when it comes to liability and right of deactivation, etc.

CAVEAT, AINAL, I just play one on Uberpeople


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Oscar Levant said:


> Most insurance companies that cover rideshares, DO NOT cover your passenger while the Uber App is in the "start" mode, and, if it's off, then it rests on "if you accept cash for the ride", Your private insurance is not considered commercial insurance.
> 
> You are still violating PUC and local taxi laws, and is that a violation of your insurance? (yes) and if that's a violation of your insurance, it means you are not covered, and if you are not covered THAT is a violation of TOS. Because it would have been redundant, I imagine lawyers didn't see the need for that specific language.


That doesnt change the fact that your statement that i was repying to was this:



Oscar Levant said:


> TOS violations aside.


I never disagreed with any other part of your statement, just this.



Oscar Levant said:


> Most insurance companies that cover rideshares, DO NOT cover your passenger while the Uber App is in the "start" mode, and, if it's off, then it rests on "if you accept cash for the ride", Your private insurance is not considered commercial insurance.
> 
> You are still violating PUC and local taxi laws, and is that a violation of your insurance? (yes) and if that's a violation of your insurance, it means you are not covered, and if you are not covered THAT is a violation of TOS. Because it would have been redundant, I imagine lawyers didn't see the need for that specific language. And, it doesn't even have to be in the contract, it's on your partner site, no insurance, no rides. (but I believe it is in the TOS, nevertheless). I suspect the law will look at all of it as the same when it comes to liability and right of deactivation, etc.
> 
> CAVEAT, AINAL, I just play one on Uberpeople


The website is not a contract. Your contract is the contract and I just quoted the exact contract. Now do the same and find me the non-compete clause. The only version of a non-compete is that you wont attempt to decompile the app, copy or make a new app from it.

What if they do have commercial insurance and livery permits? Now what?


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## delaynomore (Jan 29, 2018)

not worth the points, fines and REVOCATION of your license


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

steveK2016 said:


> That doesnt change the fact that your statement that i was repying to was this:
> 
> I never disagreed with any other part of your statement, just this.
> 
> ...


If you have comm'l insurance and livery permits, you're good to go.

If the TOS says you need auto insurance (it does), then any violation of your insurance contract with your insurer whereby you are not covered, (such as accepting cash for a ride where the ride came from Uber ) would violate the TOS with Uber, so "non-compete" is moot, therefore. This doesn't apply to livery, of course.

FYI, contracts do extend beyond what is written on paper, afaik, but some areas, like real estate, require the written.

Something in writing that isn't labeled "contract" could still be held as a contract, if it has all of the elements of a contract, consideration, etc.

You don't even have to be a lawyer to write one, as long as it has all the elements of a contract and the wording is clear enough to hold up in court.

Verbal contracts are valid, too, though not as good as written, of course.

Caveat: AINAL, I just play one on Uber  I could be wrong, so Consult an atty if you want to be certain.



steveK2016 said:


> It does not say that. If they wanted to only allow you to persuit non-compete business, it would say that. That is how contracts work. You cannot assume that people will read between the lines. If it does not explicitly say non-compete then there is no non-compete in the contract.
> 
> This is the exact wording of the contract
> 
> ...


Uber is going to deactivate you if you are acting as livery without commercial insurance and permits. I gaurantee it. I don't give a hoot what the TOS says.



steveK2016 said:


> That doesnt change the fact that your statement that i was repying to was this:
> 
> I never disagreed with any other part of your statement, just this.
> 
> ...


A contract exists wherever the elements of a contract exists. website, verbal, paper, etc. 

an offer.
an acceptance.
an intention to create a legal relationship.
a consideration (usually money)
It doesn't have to be on paper ( unless the law requires it, such as real estate ).

A contract could definitely be on a website, if the elements are there.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Oscar Levant said:


> If you have comm'l insurance and livery permits, you're good to go.
> 
> If the TOS says you need auto insurance (it does), then any violation of your insurance contract with your insurer whereby you are not covered, (such as accepting cash for a ride where the ride came from Uber ) would violate the TOS with Uber, so "non-compete" is moot, therefore. This doesn't apply to livery, of course.
> 
> ...


Its not a violation of the TOS. End of story.

You may have violated another aspect of the contract, but the act of providing livery services outside of Uber app in and of itself is not a violation. Your logic is that its a violation only because certain aspects of that act can violate other aspects of the contract. That doesnt make that specific act a violation, only the second act.

If you dont have valid insurance while Ubering, youre in violation whether you take livery services off app or not.

But driving off app is not driving for Uber thus any insurance policy violation has nothing to do with them. Thats between you, your company and your local government.

If You take rides outside of Uber, the uber contract does not apply. If you are poaching a ride, as in you accept a ping and convince them to do the ride off books, thats a violation in and of itself whether you have commercial insurance or licensing.

The question is off the books, nothing to do with uber. If im driving along and a guy walks up to my car and says "I'll pay you $20 to go across town!" That has nothing to do with uber, their app or their contract. It is not a TOS violation to accept that persons proposal regardless of your insurance coverage.

The only violation is with local laws, if applicable.

Uber may deactivate you if a prior pax wanted to levy false accusations against you after the fact but how else would they know? I'm not advocating anyone do that. Its illegal unless you have insurance and permits required, but the point is it it not against the terms.

So you are really suggesting that uber or any company can write anything they want on an obscure part of their website and you think it'll hold up in court as solidly as any contract? Maybe in communist states like California or NY but I highly doubt thats applicapble to the more sensible states in the union and any competent lawyer can get those statements dismissed.


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

DFWDavis said:


> Has anybody accepted these offers for doing rides outside of Uber for cash??


I was on Walnut Street in Pittsburgh's Shadyside area several years pre-Uber, stopped at a stop sign. A couple of women came up to my Buick Roadmaster and solicited a ride up to a Squirrel Hill synagogue and offered my $20. Was not a problem, why would Uber's existence make a difference? I've always picked up hitchhikers , I remember needing a ride as a kid- although I haven't seen very many people with their thumbs out in recent years.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

steveK2016 said:


> Its not a violation of the TOS. End of story.
> 
> You may have violated another aspect of the contract, but the act of providing livery services outside of Uber app in and of itself is not a violation. Your logic is that its a violation only because certain aspects of that act can violate other aspects of the contract. That doesnt make that specific act a violation, only the second act.
> 
> ...


You're getting stuck in the weeds, let's fly above it and take a look at the broader, more important field.

The folder should be labeled "stuff that can get you deactivated", not "TOS violation".

You're arguing what a contact is or isn't, it's the four points, end of argument, they could be on once piece of paper, it could be on a piece of paper and, by extention, on a website ( if you are required to read it ), etc., it could given verbally (it's weaker, but courts have upheld confirmed verbal contracts ).

It's all beside the point, you will get deactivated for violating rules of the road, PUC, local laws, lack of insurance, etc. That's really all that matters, so if you sue, if you are crazy enough to bother with going that far, (assuming you have an atty dumb enough to take that case ) then..

all the matters is what is determined in a court of law, and don't be surprised if a judge points to language on a website drivers are required to read, as long as the four points of a contract are met, "in toto". No, it's not as good as everything in one place, but don't assume it won't be used against you just because it's not.

Also, taking cash rides off the street, that's going to get you a fine if caught, but uber could deactivate you for doing it. If you had something like that on your record you're not going to pass a background check, i should think, so it's logical they would deactivate you for doing something that. They're not going to trust you with Uber customers, for one thing. If you convert an Uber fair to cash, that will definitely get you deactivated. It doesn't matter if it is in the TOS or not, and i think it is, though indirectly, but so what, you get deactivated, that's all that matters.

"IANAL" as always, ask a real attorney.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Oscar Levant said:


> You're getting stuck in the weeds, let's fly above it and take a look at the broader, more important field.
> 
> The folder should be labeled "stuff that can get you deactivated", not "TOS violation".
> 
> ...


You have a serious reading comprehension problem. The issue is TOS violation. Its not on there. The website only states you must have insurance to Uber. Taking rides off app is not Ubering. Its an illegal livery service that has nothing to do with Uber.

Ive already stated poaching rides is against TOS, you are contractually obligated to complete that request through the app.

You then say website, only if required to read. Where does it require us to read the Uber website?


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

steveK2016 said:


> You have a serious reading comprehension problem. The issue is TOS violation. Its not on there. The website only states you must have insurance to Uber. Taking rides off app is not Ubering. Its an illegal livery service that has nothing to do with Uber.
> 
> Ive already stated poaching rides is against TOS, you are contractually obligated to complete that request through the app.
> 
> You then say website, only if required to read. Where does it require us to read the Uber website?


the only thing worth caring about is "stuff that can get you deactivated", and TOS violations is only a part of it.

Even if it's not in the TOS, and you get deactivated for breaking some other law related to driving, taking fares,
what are you going to do, sue?

Give me a break.

They could deactivate you for breaking any law if they wanted to. You gonna sue?


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Oscar Levant said:


> the only thing worth caring about is "stuff that can get you deactivated", and TOS violations is only a part of it.
> 
> Even if it's not in the TOS, and you get deactivated for breaking some other law related to driving, taking fares,
> what are you going to do, sue?
> ...


They can deactivate you for sneezing in front of a pax. I never said I was going to sue, why would i sue?


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

I don't do under the table rides. My car is too big to fit under a table.


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## KarmaKool (Dec 30, 2016)

DFWDavis said:


> I am on a web site with local neighbors and I posted that I drive for Uber, and I have had a few people ask if I would just take cash for taking them to the airport. Has anybody accepted these offers for doing rides outside of Uber for cash??


Some of them are just checking you out to see what you will say...others may be looking to skirt the high surge price. Your insurance won't pay if you are in an accident with these pax....I don't think they would stick to the story of "being friends riding around ". Your insurance will cancel if you are found out.



Nova828 said:


> Ummm, aren't we overthinking this a little? All the OP wants to do is give neighbors a ride to the airport. Ever since I was 17 years old with my first 1985 Subaru GL I would give rides to friends, friends of friends, co-workers, neighbors etc to various places and sometimes they would give me "gas money" and sometimes not. Haven't we all? I'm pretty sure in the entire history of people owning cars and giving people rides and getting a little money for it there hasn't been a single instance of someone getting arrested or insurance not paying just for doing that!


But we aren't kids anymore...we know better now..


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## UberMD1989 (Apr 30, 2017)

KarmaKool said:


> Some of them are just checking you out to see what you will say...others may be looking to skirt the high surge price. Your insurance won't pay if you are in an accident with these pax....I don't think they would stick to the story of "being friends riding around ". Your insurance will cancel if you are found out.
> 
> But we aren't kids anymore...we know better now..


If they truly are neighbors, why wouldn't insurance believe it? It would be the truth. Do you know how many families across the US have their neighbors drive their kids to school (adults driving children or teens driving other teens) and they toss them a few bucks for gas? I'm not condoning soliciting side jobs, but if they are friends of yours, why not lend a hand? Last time I drove past the gas station, the fuel wasn't free.


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## Dropking (Aug 18, 2017)

This is all too much thinking.
Get an LLC which limits your liability to the assets in it. You can further protect yourself with a living trust.

Now, remember that insurance always has limits, whether it is lyft, uber, allstate, etc. If the limit is, say, $500,000, and the guy who slips on the rake in your front yard (or the person whose back u broke in an uber ride) sues you for $2,000,000.... what happens? Well boys and girls, you are on the hook for the remaining $1.5 million dollars even with insurance.

I think get the llc and stop worrying so much.


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## SuzeCB (Oct 30, 2016)

I_Like_Spam said:


> I was on Walnut Street in Pittsburgh's Shadyside area several years pre-Uber, stopped at a stop sign. A couple of women came up to my Buick Roadmaster and solicited a ride up to a Squirrel Hill synagogue and offered my $20. Was not a problem, why would Uber's existence make a difference? I've always picked up hitchhikers , I remember needing a ride as a kid- although I haven't seen very many people with their thumbs out in recent years.


They hold their phones now.


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

I_Like_Spam said:


> I was on Walnut Street in Pittsburgh's Shadyside area several years pre-Uber, stopped at a stop sign. A couple of women came up to my Buick Roadmaster and solicited a ride up to a Squirrel Hill synagogue and offered my $20. Was not a problem, why would Uber's existence make a difference? I've always picked up hitchhikers , I remember needing a ride as a kid- although I haven't seen very many people with their thumbs out in recent years.


That my friend...

Is a dead art form...a monkey...

Used to be able to travel the country...

Low cost...friendly people...8>)

Sure do miss the good old days...!

Monkeys hitchhiking... enjoy...!






Rakos


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## fusionuber (Nov 27, 2017)

delaynomore said:


> not worth the points, fines and REVOCATION of your license


your the type of dude to say "bless you" when they sneeze arent u


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> It does not say that. If they wanted to only allow you to persuit non-compete business, it would say that. That is how contracts work. You cannot assume that people will read between the lines. If it does not explicitly say non-compete then there is no non-compete in the contract.
> 
> This is the exact wording of the contract
> "You acknowledge and agree that you have complete discretion to provide services or otherwise engage in other business or employment activities. For the sake of clarity, you understand that you retain the complete right to; (i) use other software application services in addition to the Uber Services; and (ii) engage in any other occupation or business."
> ...


Couldn't the quote from the TOS be interpreted to mean that we can engage in ANY occupation or business OTHER than a ride-for-hire occupation or business?


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

Dropking said:


> This is all too much thinking.
> Get an _*LLC which limits your liability to the assets in it.*_* You can further protect yourself with a living trust.*
> 
> Now, remember that insurance always has limits, whether it is lyft, uber, allstate, etc. If the limit is, say, $500,000, and the guy who slips on the rake in your front yard (or the person whose back u broke in an uber ride) sues you for $2,000,000.... what happens? Well boys and girls, you are on the hook for the remaining $1.5 million dollars even with insurance.
> ...


It's minimum $800 in franchise taxes/year for llc.

Living trusts are for personal, I've yet to see a business owner set up a living trust for business purposes. I've seen partnerships with llc as a signing partner. I've seen c corps and s corps. Limited partners and llc (member and managed). Etcetc.

Do you operate under a llc and protect yourself business wise with living trust? Revocable I assume.


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## Dropking (Aug 18, 2017)

Yes I operate under an llc umbrella. But, should a lawyer manage to smash through those llc protections to target personal assets, the living trust becomes their next obstacle. Living trusts are to protect personal asssts, llcs are to isolate your business assets.



sellkatsell44 said:


> It's minimum $800 in franchise taxes/year for llc.
> 
> Living trusts are for personal, I've yet to see a business owner set up a living trust for business purposes. I've seen partnerships with llc as a signing partner. I've seen c corps and s corps. Limited partners and llc (member and managed). Etcetc.
> 
> Do you operate under a llc and protect yourself business wise with living trust? Revocable I assume.


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## I_Like_Spam (May 10, 2015)

Dropking said:


> This is all too much thinking.
> Get an LLC which limits your liability to the assets in it. You can further protect yourself with a living trust.
> 
> I think get the llc and stop worrying so much.


The problem with this idea is that if you are at fault for an accident, you can be PERSONALLY sued, not just your LLC. If you go into the Mayo Clinic, and your doctor Vinnie Boombatz accidentally amputates the right leg instead of the left- you can sue both Mayo ( which is limited in their liability) and their employee Dr. Boombatz for his personal actions.


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## Dropking (Aug 18, 2017)

I_Like_Spam said:


> The problem with this idea is that if you are at fault for an accident, you can be PERSONALLY sued, not just your LLC. If you go into the Mayo Clinic, and your doctor Vinnie Boombatz accidentally amputates the right leg instead of the left- you can sue both Mayo ( which is limited in their liability) and their employee Dr. Boombatz for his personal actions.


That is correct, which is why you want a living trust as well. You can be personally sued for negligence, meaning if you cause an accident by driving badly, you can be personally sued beyond your llc protection. Of course, you can also be sued far beyond the limits of your insurance coverage no matter what the limits.

Anyone looking at living trusts should consider the irrevocable living trust option which provides an impenetrable wall. You have to trust your kids, but you will sleep better at night.

Disclaimer: this is not legal advice. Consult a professional.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Taxi2Uber said:


> Couldn't the quote from the TOS be interpreted to mean that we can engage in ANY occupation or business OTHER than a ride-for-hire occupation or business?


It doesnt say other than. It says *any* other business activity. You cannot add words to a contract. If They didnt want you to have a livery service outside of Uber, it would explicitly say so. Thats how contracts work.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> It doesnt say other than. It says *any* other business activity. You cannot add words to a contract. If They didnt want you to have a livery service outside of Uber, it would explicitly say so. Thats how contracts work.


I usually agree with your posts on UP (the subject of tipping aside), but boy are you condescending.
All I'm saying is, "[we] have the right to engage in any other occupation or business" _could_ be interpreted as an occupation or business not similar to, not related to, not competing with, the occupation or business that Uber is involved in, namely *any other*.


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## EBW (Dec 6, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> It doesnt say other than. It says *any* other business activity. You cannot add words to a contract. If They didnt want you to have a livery service outside of Uber, it would explicitly say so. Thats how contracts work.


As long as you're not operating a technology company it should be fine.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

EBW said:


> As long as you're not operating a technology company it should be fine.





Taxi2Uber said:


> I usually agree with your posts on UP (the subject of tipping aside), but boy are you condescending.
> All I'm saying is, "[we] have the right to engage in any other occupation or business" _could_ be interpreted as an occupation or business not similar to, not related to, not competing with, the occupation or business that Uber is involved in, namely *any other*.


If that was the case they would say it. This clause is intented to open you up to be allowed to use other services such as Lyft, Gett, Juno, etc. Particularly when they say you can use other software other than Uber services. Which means if they allow you to be a livery driver for their competitors, then you are also free to be livery service without the app.

They have no right to tell you whether you do your own livery service or not outside of the app. If they allow you per contract to drive for Lyft, then they de facto allow you to driver as an independent livery service.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> If that was the case they would say it. This clause is intented to open you up to be allowed to use other services such as Lyft, Gett, Juno, etc. Particularly when they say you can use other software other than Uber services. Which means if they allow you to be a livery driver for their competitors, then you are also free to be livery service without the app.
> 
> They have no right to tell you whether you do your own livery service or not outside of the app. If they allow you per contract to drive for Lyft, then they de facto allow you to driver as an independent livery service.


I agree that Uber has no right to tell us what we can/cannot do outside the app. I think they overstep their authority. Question is, is it a violation of TOS and I'm focusing on the wording of the TOS, and how its (deliberately?) open to interpretation. If they de facto allow us to drive as IC livery service, (and I'll use your words), they would say it.
Instead they separated section (i), relating to the use of other software based services (ridehail/food delivery/etc) [which is clear] and section (ii), any other business [not so clear]

If I was parked somewhere and a person, Mike, approached me and asked, "Are you Uber?" I say, "I'm Uber and Lyft." Mike then says, "Ok, let me check which one is cheaper" and then orders and I get his Lyft ping. I turn off Uber app and we leave. No violation of TOS.
If my answer was, "I'm Uber and Lyft and I take cash rides". Mike says "Well, Uber was $20, Lyft was $17, how much for a cash ride?" I say "Give me 10 bucks" Mike agrees. I turn off both RS apps and we leave. Am I now in violation of TOS? I say Uber would say Yes, and proceed to deactivate me if they learned about it. I don't agree with it, though.


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## Transporter_011 (Feb 3, 2018)

How much do you trust your driving? I know guys in my area who have been doing it for over a decade. No commercial insurance, no tags/medallions, no badges, but they work the outskirts of Houston and not the inner city as much. The way Houston is spread out makes this somewhat easier to get away with, though. I personally did under the table rides for almost 2 years while doing uberselect when I first started my business. I was careful, I still got a badge ID so that I could pick my passengers up inside the airport baggage claim, but I had to park in the normal parking areas of IAH, not the limo parking area. I usually worked the hotels and local restaurants in my area which was good enough for me to net enough to get a nicer vehicle and livery insurance.

Sometimes in life, you gotta say "What the ****?". Take some chances.


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## El Janitor (Feb 22, 2016)

EBW said:


> As long as you're not operating a technology company it should be fine.


So then I should stop fixing computers too?


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Taxi2Uber said:


> I agree that Uber has no right to tell us what we can/cannot do outside the app. I think they overstep their authority. Question is, is it a violation of TOS and I'm focusing on the wording of the TOS, and how its (deliberately?) open to interpretation. If they de facto allow us to drive as IC livery service, (and I'll use your words), they would say it.
> Instead they separated section (i), relating to the use of other software based services (ridehail/food delivery/etc) [which is clear] and section (ii), any other business [not so clear]
> 
> If I was parked somewhere and a person, Mike, approached me and asked, "Are you Uber?" I say, "I'm Uber and Lyft." Mike then says, "Ok, let me check which one is cheaper" and then orders and I get his Lyft ping. I turn off Uber app and we leave. No violation of TOS.
> If my answer was, "I'm Uber and Lyft and I take cash rides". Mike says "Well, Uber was $20, Lyft was $17, how much for a cash ride?" I say "Give me 10 bucks" Mike agrees. I turn off both RS apps and we leave. Am I now in violation of TOS? I say Uber would say Yes, and proceed to deactivate me if they learned about it. I don't agree with it, though.


Any other business. The key word: any. There is no restrictions.

The key thing in your scenario is there is zero ability for Uber to know about it. If mike never pinged you, how will he know who you are? How would uber know who you are? How would uber know who mike is?

The only scenario that can go bad is if they are prior pax that have a recorded trip with you. They can make false accusations of you poaching a ride. That can, and I'm sure does, happen routinely.

But a stranger off the street never connected to your Uber account, how would that get back to Uber?

It has nothing to do with Uber much less their TOS.

False accusations is always a real threat. If a prior pax wants to be vindictive, thryre gonna go all out and I guarantee Uber will interpret the report as poaching rather than you developing a lead after the fact. There are many drivers, 1 in Dallas board and 1 in atlanta board, that use Uber as a lead generation app, which is exactly what Uber calls it in the first paragraph of the TOS.

Its up to each driver how they manage those leads. Those that drive full time and doesnt manage leads at all will always be at the mercy of Ubers rates.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

I dont do "under the table" rides. But I do do rides by appointment> On the APP. The rider calls for a ride when we are together. Im the closest driver so I get the call. That way, I dont piss off Uber and we are insured


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## Rakos (Sep 2, 2014)

oldfart said:


> I dont do "under the table" rides. But I do do rides by appointment> On the APP. The rider calls for a ride when we are together. Im the closest driver so I get the call. That way, I dont piss off Uber and we are insured


OK Einstein...

enlighted the old monkey...

Just how do you get the ping...

While the person is IN the car...???

If you haven't tried this of late...

It DOESN'T WORK like that...

Any more...!

Of course I could be wrong...

And if so...please share...

your magic method to do this.. 8>)

Rakos


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Rakos said:


> OK Einstein...
> 
> enlighted the old monkey...
> 
> ...


No magic

In my experience (limited as it may be) you are wrong...

I get the ping just like any other ride.

The passenger calls for a ride;

the system searches for the closest driver which is me, because we are standing side by side (or, yes sitting in the car, together),

I get the ping and accept the ride... EZPZ


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> Any other business. The key word: any. There is no restrictions.


You are trying very hard to put a specific meaning to a single word, to support what you think the TOS is trying to say.
I would say "other," and more so "any other," as being key. Even those are open to interpretation.
Hell, even "is" has many interpretations, just ask Slick Willie.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Taxi2Uber said:


> You are trying very hard to put a specific meaning to a single word, to support what you think the TOS is trying to say.
> I would say "other," and more so "any other," as being key. Even those are open to interpretation.
> Hell, even "is" has many interpretations, just ask Slick Willie.


Again, if the contract allows you to be livery with Lyft then it allows you to be livery as anyone else. If they had the power to tell you you couldnt compete, they would spell it out. They didn't. End of discussion.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> Again, if the contract allows you to be livery with Lyft then it allows you to be livery as anyone else. If they had the power to tell you you couldnt compete, they would spell it out. They didn't. End of discussion.


Again. What you believe to be true, doesn't make it the only truth. There are interpretations. Also, repetition doesn't make it true. They also didn't spell out I could compete either. So your deductions based on omission are not valid. The fact that they separated (i)using Lyft,etc and (ii)any other business is very telling. NOW. End of discussion.


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## MisterMaestro (Feb 14, 2018)

Nova828 said:


> Ummm, aren't we overthinking this a little? All the OP wants to do is give neighbors a ride to the airport. Ever since I was 17 years old with my first 1985 Subaru GL I would give rides to friends, friends of friends, co-workers, neighbors etc to various places and sometimes they would give me "gas money" and sometimes not. Haven't we all? I'm pretty sure in the entire history of people owning cars and giving people rides and getting a little money for it there hasn't been a single instance of someone getting arrested or insurance not paying just for doing that!


Exactly! Just be "off the clock" and accept the gas money.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Taxi2Uber said:


> Again. What you believe to be true, doesn't make it the only truth. There are interpretations. Also, repetition doesn't make it true. They also didn't spell out I could compete either. So your deductions based on omission are not valid. The fact that they separated (i)using Lyft,etc and (ii)any other business is very telling. NOW. End of discussion.


It is very telling as they directly say you can use other services and provide any other business service you wish. You can interpret it anyway you want. You are wrong.


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## Karen Stein (Nov 5, 2016)

I think the discussion got lost in the weeds. 
We're not running debate teams or law firms. We're in BUSINESS.

Why would we seek ways to work AGAINST our own interests? It's like when halfway through a card game and someone wants to change the rules -- whose interest do you think the change serves? Yours? Yea, sure. Good luck with that!

The "rules" are pretty simple: USE THE APP. Doing so furthers your interests by documenting things for the tax man, ensuring payment, providing for dispute resolution, and lessening risks for everyone involved.

The biggest feature is the app protects you from other drivers. No ride stealing. No underbidding "race to the bottom."

Customer wants you to cut him a deal? How can someone assert a right to work for less in this thread, while claiming in other threads we're underpaid? 

I've driven cab, and know all too well about the problems customers can cause. The Uber/Lyft model eliminates ALL of those sour situations. I've done about 5000 ride-shares and have had but one or two rides that were less than perfect. In truth, I grade MY performance lower than that of my customers. (I can think of dozens of trips where I messed up).

I'll transport my mother for free. I'll pick up my best friend at the airport for free. For Joe Customer it's "use the app or walk."


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> It is very telling as they directly say you can use other services and provide any other business service you wish. You can interpret it anyway you want. You are wrong.


And that's the bottom line for you. What you think is right and whoever thinks otherwise is wrong. No exceptions.


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## steveK2016 (Jul 31, 2016)

Taxi2Uber said:


> And that's the bottom line for you. What you think is right and whoever thinks otherwise is wrong. No exceptions.


There are cases where people can be right other than me. This is not one of those cases.

Now to be clear, I have never done a ride off app. Not because of Uber but because I didnt have commercial insurance or required permits to be a livery service beyond rideshare.

The Uber app is a leads generator, by their on description in the contract, that generates leads for independent self employed contractors. How you manage those leads in the future is up to you.


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

steveK2016 said:


> There are cases where people can be right other than me. This is not one of those cases.
> 
> Now to be clear, I have never done a ride off app. Not because of Uber but because I didnt have commercial insurance or required permits to be a livery service beyond rideshare.
> 
> The Uber app is a leads generator, by their on description in the contract, that generates leads for independent self employed contractors. How you manage those leads in the future is up to you.


Yeah, I understand your firm, unwavering stance on your opinion. I understood them the first dozen times you said them also. You think that words only mean what you want them to mean, or need them to mean to support your case. Words and phrases can have different interpretations.


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