# What are your ACTUAL costs per mile?



## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Some drivers like to tell others the 54c a mile you are allowed to deduct in 2016 (standard mileage deduction) is an accurate reflection of actual costs.

Oddly, these drivers then follow up with actual per mile costs just a fraction of the 54c.

My real world costs were 17c a mile in 2015.

What were yours? Please be honest so that we can establish a real world baseline for newbies.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

About 48c a mile if nothing breaks or gets destroyed.

This cost is per total driven mile. Per uber rider mile it's 95c-140c a mile.


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

My cost is about 20 cents per mile and is driven mainly by maintenance. The car is owned outright and the value is low so the depreciation is negligible (< $500/yr). I do not include insurance, title and registration fees or any other non-Uber costs.


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## UberPasco (Oct 18, 2015)

$0.21


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Stygge said:


> About 48c a mile if nothing breaks or gets destroyed.
> 
> This cost is per total driven mile. Per uber rider mile it's 95c-140c a mile.


Jesus Christ, what are you driving?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Coachman said:


> My cost is about 20 cents per mile and is driven mainly by maintenance. The car is owned outright and the value is low so the depreciation is negligible (< $500/yr). I do not include insurance, title and registration fees or any other non-Uber costs.


You know, now that you pointed that out, I shouldn't be including those non-Uber dead costs either. I didn't count insurance because I have no added TNC or rider, but I didn't think about the taxes and whatnot I would pay anyways. Good point.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> Jesus Christ, what are you driving?


Not a 10 year old corolla.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Stygge said:


> Not a 10 year old corolla.


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## UberXCali (Jan 30, 2016)

73 cents a mile...


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

UberXCali said:


> 73 cents a mile...


_Com'onman_, be serious. You would have to drive in circles in a new mercedes. I really want to know and I think it would help people.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

Coachman said:


> My cost is about 20 cents per mile and is driven mainly by maintenance. The car is owned outright and the value is low so the depreciation is negligible (< $500/yr). I do not include insurance, title and registration fees or any other non-Uber costs.


Many cars have depreciation/repairs of up to 20c a mile. Once you hit 100k miles it's less depreciation but more repairs. Throw in maintenance too in that cost if you wish.
Tires are about 10c a mile.
Gas varies by vehicle and location. 6-20c per mile perhaps.
Many drivers need to throw in $1000 deductible every time they crash.
It looks difficult to get close to 20c a mile.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> _Com'onman_, be serious. You would have to drive in circles in a new mercedes. I really want to know and I think it would help people.


Buy a new car for $45,000. Drive 100k and sell for $10,000. That's 35c per mile right there.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Stygge said:


> Many cars have depreciation/repairs of up to 20c a mile. Once you hit 100k miles it's less depreciation but more repairs. Throw in maintenance too in that cost if you wish.
> Tires are about 10c a mile.
> Gas varies by vehicle and location. 6-20c per mile perhaps.
> Many drivers need to throw in $1000 deductible every time they crash.
> It looks difficult to get close to 20c a mile.


Uh...










Really good tires, I mean practical, not show off, are like 2c a mile or less. Did you mean 2c?

Gas at 20c? In Russia? I drive a 2008 XL mini-van and pay 8c.

I've never in my life been in a crash so, I'll hold off on the $1,000 until I experience it. Defensive driving and awareness and all.

Seriously, if you are paying 20c a mile in depreciation and repairs, you just aren't Ubering well. That's more a due diligence/decision thing than realistic costs.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Stygge said:


> Buy a new car for $45,000. Drive 100k and sell for $10,000. That's 35c per mile right there.


You nailed it sir. Correct.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> Gas at 20c? In Russia? I drive a 2008 XL mini-van and pay 8c.


Drive an SUV in SF and your gas cost is currently about 17c a mile. It is not unlikely prices will continue to go up.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Stygge said:


> Drive an SUV in SF and your gas cost is currently about 17c a mile. It is not unlikely prices will continue to go up.


Ahhh, well, there's their first and second mistakes. Driving a SUV and living in SF. I'm starting to see now.

So, Ubering without math in a tax and waste state. Perhaps there are better options?


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> Really good tires, I mean practical, not show off, are like 2c a mile or less. Did you mean 2c?


Sorry, fat fingers made that 10x wrong.


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## UberXCali (Jan 30, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> _Com'onman_, be serious. You would have to drive in circles in a new mercedes. I really want to know and I think it would help people.


I do own a new Mercedes. In fact, I just bought another this weekend...lol.

2015 GLA250 4Matic 10k Miles - Running Cost: 78 cents a mile
2014 CLA250 30K miles - Running Cost: 78 cents a mile
2014 E350 7k miles - Running Cost: 73 cents a mile
2016 GLC300 17 miles 4Matic - Running Cost: 58 cents a mile (I pulled the GLK350 version running costs, as the GLC is a new model year and too new to figure out what it costs to run it).

Obviously, I didn't get them driving for Uber though...although that's what Travis would have people believe!

Insurance cost is $390 a month for all 4. So, that alone is a big cost. Although, like you said, I would be paying insurance for them anyways so I shouldn't really include it in the cost to drive. The depreciation alone on these vehicles, plus gas, tires, etc, will make it equal about the costs above.

I can do the math later on to figure out the exact running costs for me, but these are costs that I pulled off of Edmunds and other various car websites. They may vary a bit, solely because it is difficult to calculate running costs of new model cars (3 of the 4).


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> Seriously, if you are paying 20c a mile in depreciation and repairs, you just aren't Ubering well. That's more a due diligence/decision thing than realistic costs.


It depends on what you "earn" too. I get about$1 per total mile which is about $2 per uber rider mile. It would be nice with lower costs and I'm looking into it. It is very difficult to buy and drive a crap car if one is used to a nice ride that doesn't cause problems.


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## UberXCali (Jan 30, 2016)

Stygge said:


> It depends on what you "earn" too. I get about$1 per total mile which is about $2 per uber rider mile. It would be nice with lower costs and I'm looking into it. It is very difficult to buy and drive a crap car if one is used to a nice ride that doesn't cause problems.


Agreed.

I figure though, Uber is not worth that investment. Personally, I would wait until Lyft and Uber drive each other out of business and lose their drivers, then end up drawing a sustainable model.

PAX will never be happy, let me tell you that as experience. Just today, I was reported for unsafe driving because my car kept beeping at me. The stupid PAX either was trying to get a refund on her ride or believed that the beeps meant unsafe driving/collision warning. The beeps really just mean a vehicle was in my blind spot...

I want to kick the next obnoxious PAX out on the side of the road, honestly. I may do this for fun, but it's not fun to be treated the way some PAX treat drivers.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

UberXCali said:


> I do own a new Mercedes. In fact, I just bought another this weekend...lol.
> 
> 2015 GLA250 4Matic 10k Miles - Running Cost: 78 cents a mile
> 2014 CLA250 30K miles - Running Cost: 78 cents a mile
> ...


Sooooo, please god, you're not UberXing in these?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

People, I failed.

I am referring to UberX(pool) and XL costs, not select, SUV, black, or whatever the hell else is out there.

You clowns can stop pulling on my tail now, you win.

Too many frenemies around here.


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## UberXCali (Jan 30, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> Sooooo, please god, you're not UberXing in these?


But sir, if I accept just UberSELECT, Travis will deactivate me for being a bad boy and not taking pity on UberX cheap PAX! 

In all fairness though, I'm just about done with Uber. My 2K miles are nearly up and I told myself I would not go beyond that. After this, I'll just do a drive a month to stay active.

As for pulling your tail, I am not. I don't have any hate for anyone on these forums, really. You had asked for running costs, so I provided my information. Apologies, I didn't realize it was specifically for UberX.

I do sympathize with you though...I have to do UberX often and it flat out sucks.


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## Macdiggity (Feb 7, 2016)

You need an economy car to get low per mile costs. My new volvo costs me much more than that. If you add depreciaton psh well over $1 per mile I think. Just because you have low miles with no maintenance, doesn't mean that your car isn't getting beat up.


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## Chance Phillips (Mar 2, 2016)

.25/mile


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

The truth is that under normal ownership circumstances, none of us knows the cost per mile until we sell the car. Period. End of story. You have to plan for repairs and for replacing the vehicle. You might skate by doing otherwise for a while, but you won't in the long term.

Any idiot can say, "gas costs xx, and insurance is yy and I'm amortizing a vehicle of XXXX cost over YYYYYYYYY miles," but that is just an ill-conceived plan. 

What does God do when we plan?


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## RansomT (Sep 21, 2015)

I do my own maintenance, background in auto/motorcycle repair helps. I meticulously went through the figures on per mile actual cost on a used MKZ hybrid that I purchased back in October. Figuring in all maintenance cost (like transmission fluid change, oil changes, tires, belts, brakes,etc..) and replacement costs, it is very close to 30 cents per mile NOT including fuel cost. I didn't figure in insurance nor tag cost (we pay property tax on our vehicle in KY). So considering the 2 to 1 Uber mileage per ride, anything less than 0.75 per mile you are going in the hole IF you do your own maintenance. If it wasn't for my Lyft income and an occasional UberSelect ride, I wouldn't be doing this.


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## Aw Jeez (Jul 13, 2015)

Some of you guys are funny. You don't count insurance in your cost per mile because you'd be paying it anyway?? What, you think the insurance cost stops? It costs you geniuses money for EVERY mile you drive, whether it's for Uber or personally. The car doesn't know what you're doing with it. To not include instance costs in your Uber calculations is erroneous and misleading.

It is true that your exact cost per mile cannot be known in advance. But you can make some very accurate predictions if you know how many miles you are likely to drive in a given year. Take how much you drove over the last three months and multiply by four to give you a twelve month average. Use this number when you calculate, say, insurance cost per mile.

Then, figure out your TOTAL cost per mile (loan, insurance, maintenance, oil changes, tires, gas, fees, etc). Break out that portion of total miles (revenue and deadhead) that you drive for Uber. Multiply that number by your cost per mile and that will give you an accurate figure of what it cost you to drive for Uber. Now compare this with what you earned while driving for Uber.

It's not that hard.


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## RansomT (Sep 21, 2015)

Aw Jeez, I do agree with you. If I was negotiating with Uber my per mile cost; I would include Insurance along with property tax, tags, my cost of maintaining my CDL, etc... (which BTW, we all should be able to negotiate "as partners" our per mile pay). But in reality there are cost associated with owning a vehicle that has very little to do with mileage. e.g. If I parked my MKZ in the driveway and never drove it(0 miles), it would still cost me nearly the same in Insurance along with the cost of tagging it. In my state, full coverage Insurance is required on financed vehicles as well as tag/property tax payments.

And if you get on the "fringe" of cost analysis of ride share, what do you do about taxes? Uber actually saved me $$ on my Federal return this year.


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## huskybiker (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm at approx .40 per mile. Here's how I came to that number: Car $18500 divided by 100,000 miles = 18.5 per mile. Gas $2 per gal divided by 28 = 7 per mile. Tires $600 divided by 30,000 miles = 2 per mile. Oil change (synthetic) $60 divided by 5,000 miles = .15 per mile. Brakes $200 divided by 20,000 miles = 1 per mile. Insurance $100 divided by 1000 miles per month = .10 per mile. Of course this cost is for every mile I drive, not just my Uber miles.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> Sooooo, please god, you're not UberXing in these?


Oh, he is. LOL.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

huskybiker said:


> I'm at approx .40 per mile. Here's how I came to that number: Car $18500 divided by 100,000 miles = 18.5 per mile. Gas $2 per gal divided by 28 = 7 per mile. Tires $600 divided by 30,000 miles = 2 per mile. Oil change (synthetic) $60 divided by 5,000 miles = .15 per mile. Brakes $200 divided by 20,000 miles = 1 per mile. Insurance $100 divided by 1000 miles per month = .10 per mile. Of course this cost is for every mile I drive, not just my Uber miles.


$0.185 + $0.07 + $0.02 + $0.15 + $0.01 + $0.1 = 53.5 cents per mile.

And this doesn't include any reserve for repairs or for replacing the vehicle when it is worn out.

Can the "muh costs are only 17 cents a mile" contingent tell us again how the 54 cents per mile the IRS allows is not based on reality?


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

Greguzzi said:


> And this doesn't include any reserve for repairs or for replacing the vehicle when it is worn out.


Yes, the 18.5 c per mile includes repairs and replacement. It may be a little high but I think that is a great approximation. Whatever residual value the car has after 100k miles can be put towards any unlikely repairs.


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## ninja warrior (Jan 10, 2016)

Greguzzi said:


> $0.185 + $0.07 + $0.02 + $0.15 + $0.01 + $0.1 = 53.5 cents per mile.
> 
> And this doesn't include any reserve for repairs or for replacing the vehicle when it is worn out.
> 
> Can the "muh costs are only 17 cents a mile" contingent tell us again how the 54 cents per mile the IRS allows is not based on reality?


That contingent won't show the necessary math.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Stygge said:


> Yes, the 18.5 c per mile includes repairs and replacement. It may be a little high but I think that is a great approximation. Whatever residual value the car has after 100k miles can be put towards any unlikely repairs.


That is true only if you bank the 18.5 cents per mile for repairs and replacement. If you pocket it instead, then there is no reserve for such things. How many here are banking 18.5 cents per mile for repair and replacement rather than pocketing the money?


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

Greguzzi said:


> That is true only if you bank the 18.5 cents per mile for repairs and replacement. If you pocket it instead, then there is no reserve for such things. How many here are banking 18.5 cents per mile for repair and replacement rather than pocketing the money?


Now you're mixing in financing into your costs. It does not really change your cost per uber mile if you set aside the 18.5c per mile or if you buy crack for them. I don't condone buying crack but it's really irrelevant to your per mile cost.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Stygge said:


> About 48c a mile if nothing breaks or gets destroyed.
> 
> This cost is per total driven mile. Per uber rider mile it's 95c-140c a mile.


Excuse me, but in what universe would nothing break?
Unless you never drive at all...


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## ninja warrior (Jan 10, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Excuse me, but in what universe would nothing break?
> Unless you never drive at all...


These guys are driving bottomed out cars with 200k miles on them and nothing ever breaks. That's how good these cars are.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> The truth is that under normal ownership circumstances, none of us knows the cost per mile until we sell the car. Period. End of story. You have to plan for repairs and for replacing the vehicle. You might skate by doing otherwise for a while, but you won't in the long term.
> 
> Any idiot can say, "gas costs xx, and insurance is yy and I'm amortizing a vehicle of XXXX cost over YYYYYYYYY miles," but that is just an ill-conceived plan.
> 
> What does God do when we plan?


Shhh!
Your gonna break hearts and denial speaking the truth.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Excuse me, but in what universe would nothing break?
> Unless you never drive at all...


No universe? I never said nothing would break. I just can't make an accurate estimation of it so I put it as an additional cost.

To be honest though, my experience of my own and friend's vehicles is that it is very rare to have repair costs not covered by warranty the first 100 k miles. Depreciation is a much higher cost than repairs for a newer vehicle.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

ninja warrior said:


> These guys are driving bottomed out cars with 200k miles on them and nothing ever breaks. That's how good these cars are.


 I don't like that you comment on a comment to my comment with stuff that doesn't relate. I do know vehicles break and I do not drive cars with 200k miles on them. I don't even drive cars with 100k on them normally.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Stygge said:


> Now you're mixing in financing into your costs. It does not really change your cost per uber mile if you set aside the 18.5c per mile or if you buy crack for them. I don't condone buying crack but it's really irrelevant to your per mile cost.


No. No, I'm not. Do what you want, though.

And it does matter what you do with the money. If you plan to just run your car into the ground, then buy crack. If you buy crack with it, though you won't have any money to repair the car or replace your car if it breaks. If you plan on staying in the game, you have to act like it and save money to repair or replace the car.

Understand: What you choose to do makes no difference to me, but people are reading this thread to try to decide whether driving for Uber is wise or stupid. They shouldn't make that decision based on unsustainably low cost figures.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

Greguzzi said:


> No. No, I'm not. Do what you want, though.
> 
> And it does matter what you do with the money. If you plan to just run your car into the ground, then buy crack. If you buy crack with it, though you won't have any money to repair the car or replace your car if it breaks. If you plan on staying in the game, you have to act like it and save money to repair or replace the car.
> 
> Understand: What you choose to do makes no difference to me, but people are reading this thread to try to decide whether driving for Uber is wise or stupid. They shouldn't make that decision based on unsustainably low cost figures.


It's obvious that you don't have the basic knowledge about accounting. I do. I have no issues replacing my car when it's time or to repair it when needed. I have that covered. I just tried to make you aware that you double accounted for depreciation but never mind. I think most people can run their private car profitably for uber for around 50c a mile. (every mile including dead miles) If you have other calculations it would be interesting to see them.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Stygge said:


> It's obvious that you don't have the basic knowledge about accounting. I do. I have no issues replacing my car when it's time or to repair it when needed. I have that covered. I just tried to make you aware that you double accounted for depreciation but never mind. I think most people can run their private car profitably for uber for around 50c a mile. (every mile including dead miles) If you have other calculations it would be interesting to see them.


Amazing that you believe you have basic accounting skills, yet make a blanket statement that everyone should be able to turn a profit at .50 per rolling mile, regardless of gross rates which range from .30 to over $2 per mile.

Kinda blew your claim, bro.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Amazing that you believe you have basic accounting skills, yet make a blanket statement that everyone should be able to turn a profit at .50 per rolling mile, regardless of gross rates which range from .30 to over $2 per mile.
> 
> Kinda blew your claim, bro.


No wonder how uber could take so much of the taxi business with so little effort. Your vehicle cost is about 50c per DRIVEN mile. That means that you need more than that for a pax mile. Probably 2-3 times depending on how good you are. Then you may want a salary too. Add $x per hour.

This thread is about vehicle costs, not if driving for uber is good or bad.

Again, show me that calculations that a normal uber vehicle would cost more than 50c a mile, everything included.

And yes, I studied accounting at university.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Stygge said:


> No wonder how uber could take so much of the taxi business with so little effort. Your vehicle cost is about 50c per DRIVEN mile. That means that you need more than that for a pax mile. Probably 2-3 times depending on how good you are. Then you may want a salary too. Add $x per hour.
> 
> This thread is about vehicle costs, not if driving for uber is good or bad.
> 
> ...


Rolling mile and driven mile is the same stat.
I never calculate cost on paid mile.
Your the clown who made the blanket statement about being able to make a profit regardless of the gross rate of pay, which is a huge variable.

And i never studied accounting, not for one second- but ive run four businesses in the black for well over a decade.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

Stygge said:


> It's obvious that you don't have the basic knowledge about accounting. I do. I have no issues replacing my car when it's time or to repair it when needed. I have that covered. I just tried to make you aware that you double accounted for depreciation but never mind. I think most people can run their private car profitably for uber for around 50c a mile. (every mile including dead miles) If you have other calculations it would be interesting to see them.


OK, then. Spend your depreciation money on crack. I'll be saving mine to replace or repair my car.

I wouldn't quibble with the $0.50/mile figure, plus or minus a few cents. Where I quibble is with $0.17/mile.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Greguzzi said:


> people are reading this thread to try to decide whether driving for Uber is wise or stupid.


To decide if its wise to drive for Uber, the question should be what are the additional costs to drive for Uber vs the cost to not drive for Uber.

I need a car for my primary job. I'll be making car payments, paying insurance, and keeping it registered even if I don't drive for Uber. I have a lot of spare time and have been watching the Three Stooges on tv and reading this forum (not much difference). I could continue on to Mickey Mouse or drive for Uber. I think driving for Uber would be more profitable.

The actual cost per mile to drive your car could be misleading in determining if its wise to be a driver. For example, say I'm a terrible driver and it costs me $5,000 a year for basic insurance but I need it for my regular $50,000 a year job. The cost per mile would be huge, especially if I only drove a few miles a year. It may work out to $100 a mile to drive. But it doesn't matter, I'd be paying it anyway. Any Uber income would help offset that cost not add to it.

So, a wise decision would consider the cost to not drive.


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## PHXTE (Jun 23, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> The truth is that under normal ownership circumstances, none of us knows the cost per mile until we sell the car. Period. End of story. You have to plan for repairs and for replacing the vehicle. You might skate by doing otherwise for a while, but you won't in the long term.
> 
> Any idiot can say, "gas costs xx, and insurance is yy and I'm amortizing a vehicle of XXXX cost over YYYYYYYYY miles," but that is just an ill-conceived plan.
> 
> What does God do when we plan?


Nonsense. In the accounting world, when accounting for fixed assets, that's exactly what you do. Are you going to be correct to the penny? No, of course not. But you can look at depreciation tables, or in our case look up values for our vehicles at however many miles and age you want and get a reasonable idea. In my particular case, I can get a reasonable estimate of what my 2014 Focus is going to be worth in 2019 by looking at the values of 2011 Foci now with the desired mileage.


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## PHXTE (Jun 23, 2015)

Aw Jeez said:


> Some of you guys are funny. You don't count insurance in your cost per mile because you'd be paying it anyway?? What, you think the insurance cost stops? It costs you geniuses money for EVERY mile you drive, whether it's for Uber or personally. The car doesn't know what you're doing with it. To not include instance costs in your Uber calculations is erroneous and misleading.
> 
> It is true that your exact cost per mile cannot be known in advance. But you can make some very accurate predictions if you know how many miles you are likely to drive in a given year. Take how much you drove over the last three months and multiply by four to give you a twelve month average. Use this number when you calculate, say, insurance cost per mile.
> 
> ...


Some of you guys need to go Google the difference between a fixed cost and a variable cost. To put it very bluntly, a fixed cost stays the same no matter how many miles you drive. A variable cost increases with every mile you drive. If you're using your personal insurance, and it doesn't cost you any more because you rideshare with it, it's improper to consider that a cost of your Ubering - because it's a cost that you would be paying regardless, therefore it's not an expense of Ubering. Just like a car payment on a car that you would own regardless of whether you drive Uber or not. It's improper to consider that an expense of Ubering because you'd be making the same payment whether you're sitting on your ass at home eating Bon-bons, or driving 300 miles/night as an Uber driver.

However, if you go out and buy a brand new car for the sole purpose of Ubering, then yes, that's an expense incurred by your Ubering and it should be included as an expense. Likewise if you have to buy special rideshare insurance and that hikes your insurance rate by x dollars per month.

TLR - don't take accounting advice from people on the internet who have no idea what they're talking about.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

Greguzzi said:


> OK, then. Spend your depreciation money on crack. I'll be saving mine to replace or repair my car.
> 
> I wouldn't quibble with the $0.50/mile figure, plus or minus a few cents. Where I quibble is with $0.17/mile.


Fine, we are on the same page.  17c per mile would be extraordinary! I'm like you. I save what I need to replenish the resources I use.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Rolling mile and driven mile is the same stat.
> I never calculate cost on paid mile.
> Your the clown who made the blanket statement about being able to make a profit regardless of the gross rate of pay, which is a huge variable.
> 
> And i never studied accounting, not for one second- but ive run four businesses in the black for well over a decade.


It is not very nice to call someone a clown. And in this case it is incorrect. I have never claimed to be able to make a profit regardless of the gross rate of pay. Where did you get that from?

I have no doubt you can run your business profitable. I know it takes skill and effort to do so.

However, you should not attack me who actually knows how to calculate revenue, costs, and earnings. Attack the people who think they can run their vehicle at less than 20c. Most of them don't. But you may want to be more helpful and less aggressive if you want them to understand.


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## Greguzzi (Jan 9, 2016)

PHXTE said:


> Nonsense. In the accounting world, when accounting for fixed assets, that's exactly what you do. Are you going to be correct to the penny? No, of course not. But you can look at depreciation tables, or in our case look up values for our vehicles at however many miles and age you want and get a reasonable idea. In my particular case, I can get a reasonable estimate of what my 2014 Focus is going to be worth in 2019 by looking at the values of 2011 Foci now with the desired mileage.


All you have is estimates. You don't know until you sell your car what the total cost of opertion will be. I'm guessing a guy like you will determine his cost is $0.17 per mile or some such nonsense?


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Stygge said:


> It's obvious that you don't have the basic knowledge about accounting. I do. I have no issues replacing my car when it's time or to repair it when needed. I have that covered. I just tried to make you aware that you double accounted for depreciation but never mind. I think most people can run their private car profitably for uber for around 50c a mile. (every mile including dead miles) If you have other calculations it would be interesting to see them.


Its up there.
"I think most people can run their private car profitably for uber for .50 per mile".

Whats wrong with clownz?
Clownz are funny.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Its up there.
> "I think most people can run their private car profitably for uber for .50 per mile".
> 
> Whats wrong with clownz?
> Clownz are funny.


Yes, that's the cost per ROLLING mile to run uber profitably. Of course I want to be paid more than that per PAX mile. I have a rule of thumb: If I discover that my rolling miles are higher than the uber payout in dollars for a night, I immediately park and reassess the situation. I require pay for my time as well so I wouldn't drive for anything less than $1 per rolling mile.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> Some drivers like to tell others the 54c a mile you are allowed to deduct in 2016 (standard mileage deduction) is an accurate reflection of actual costs.
> 
> Oddly, these drivers then follow up with actual per mile costs just a fraction of the 54c.
> 
> ...


Mine is 3 cents per mile


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Coachman said:


> My cost is about 20 cents per mile and is driven mainly by maintenance. The car is owned outright and the value is low so the depreciation is negligible (< $500/yr). I do not include insurance, title and registration fees or any other non-Uber costs.


You psyched your self well


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

20yearsdriving said:


> Mine is 3 cents per mile


Really?? That's amazing!


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Stygge said:


> Really?? That's amazing!


Isn't this a bulls*it contest ?
My buddy ramzfan loves to hear this kind of stuff

My real gross cost of operation is around .30 /mile

But I'm light years away in managing overhead 
The 17 cents sounds like BS


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Mine is 3 cents per mile


Why even interject if you don't know your actual costs? Pretending Uber is even less profitable than it is is completely unnecessary and just misleads new drivers.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> Why even interject if you don't know your actual costs? Pretending Uber is even less profitable than it is is completely unnecessary and just misleads new drivers.


Just returning the favor

Don't worry New drivers can smell the bull


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## UberPartnerDennis (Jun 21, 2015)

figuring the cost of payments, insurance, gas, maintenance and depreciation my cost per mile is .72 cents....which is why I dont drive scewber for .85 a mile....I will stick with lyft and 1.16 per mile

btw....I dont figure in my time which would make that figure rise to .97 a mile considering a base salary of 15.0o/hr which is what I should make as a driver


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

UberPartnerDennis said:


> figuring the cost of payments, insurance, gas, maintenance and depreciation my cost per mile is .72 cents....which is why I dont drive scewber for .85 a mile....I will stick with lyft and 1.16 per mile


That math doesn't work. You either "depreciate", lost equity per mile, or deduct the cost of purchase, not both. You're paying for your car twice.

Insurance isn't a cost of Ubering unless you only own the car for Ubering and wouldn't own it otherwise, added a rider to your policy to cover TNC, or have separate TNC insurance.

I wouldn't drive for .85 a mile either though.


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## UberPartnerDennis (Jun 21, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> That math doesn't work. You either "depreciate", lost equity per mile, or deduct the cost of purchase, not both. You're paying for your car twice.
> 
> Insurance isn't a cost of Ubering unless you only own the car for Ubering and wouldn't own it otherwise, added a rider to your policy to cover TNC, or have separate TNC insurance.
> 
> I wouldn't drive for .85 a mile either though.


I have the ride share rider with Farmers...I will be switching to Mercury next month and saving 40.00 a month


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## UberBlackDriverLA (Aug 21, 2014)

Nobody's car operates under $.25 per mile unless you are driving a minivan that operates with pixie dust.


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## Tenzo (Jan 25, 2016)

What does it cost me? Or what do I tell the IRS it costs me?

Costs:
Variable
Gas, maint., oil changes, new tires, washes, cleaning, detailing
Fixed
Car depreciation. 15 yr. depreciation on my garage. Phone, phone bills, etc.

It's a schedule C business. And trust me, on the books I never make money.


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## Reversoul (Feb 8, 2016)

Someone actually chose the less than 10 cents option on the poll lol


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## midnight_puppy_2303 (Dec 30, 2015)

32 cents/mile, according to this calculating tool: http://www.masilabs.com/jcarcost3.html


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## UberPartnerDennis (Jun 21, 2015)

Reversoul said:


> Someone actually chose the less than 10 cents option on the poll lol


must be using a rickshaw


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## dirtylee (Sep 2, 2015)

My costs per mile are less than 10c for uberx mobile. I am an independent car dealer in tx. I buy my cars at dealer only auctions for 50-75% of blue book, run up the miles for 6 months and sell it at slightly more than what I paid for it.

For example: 2013 prius 27k miles cost me $10.3k. Sure I can sell it right away but I still need a car{non suv} to drive personally.


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## UberBlackDriverLA (Aug 21, 2014)

dirtylee said:


> My costs per mile are less than 10c for uberx mobile. I am an independent car dealer in tx. I buy my cars at dealer only auctions for 50-75% of blue book, run up the miles for 6 months and sell it at slightly more than what I paid for it.
> 
> For example: 2013 prius 27k miles cost me $10.3k. Sure I can sell it right away but I still need a car{non suv} to drive personally.


False. if you buy a car at auction for $5000, put 10 k miles on it, and resell it for $6000, you still have lost value. You would have sold that car for $7000 without the extra mileage on it.

You, my friend, are making good money with your car selling business, not Uber. The cars are still depreciating every mile you drive them.


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## Wil_Iam_Fuber'd (Aug 17, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Some drivers like to tell others the 54c a mile you are allowed to deduct in 2016 (standard mileage deduction) is an accurate reflection of actual costs.
> 
> Oddly, these drivers then follow up with actual per mile costs just a fraction of the 54c.
> 
> ...


It's easy to come up with any operating cost number one chooses to rationalize...using logic such as, "it hasn't happened yet so I can ignore it." If you're going to come up with a "valid" UX cost range then one must first standardize on which costs must be in or out. This is a concept widely accepted in business use called "Generally Accepted Accounting Practices GAAP)". But have fun beating this expired equine in any case.


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## gman (Jul 28, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> Some drivers like to tell others the 54c a mile you are allowed to deduct in 2016 (standard mileage deduction) is an accurate reflection of actual costs.
> 
> Oddly, these drivers then follow up with actual per mile costs just a fraction of the 54c.
> 
> ...


$.28/mile per the attached. Depreciation added as an annual one time cost.


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## UberPartnerDennis (Jun 21, 2015)

gman said:


> $.28/mile per the attached. Depreciation added as an annual one time cost.


interesting app, but you arent figuring into it what your time is worth per mile......figure that out and your .28 a mile goes up


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## Fauxknight (Aug 12, 2014)

UberPartnerDennis said:


> interesting app, but you arent figuring into it what your time is worth per mile......figure that out and your .28 a mile goes up


Eh no, that doesn't get added into costs per mile.

I figure on the PriusC:
$.01 scheduled maintenance $300/30k
$.0055 tires $460/85k
$.04 gas $2/gallon, 50mpg (overstatement on actual cost/gallon and understatement on actual mpg, so really it's lower)

Depreciation is obviously harder since it isn't concrete until it happens. Still it's pretty low there as well. KBB says my last 25k miles cost about $.064 each.

Other maintenance is also harder to predict, lightbulbs, air filters, wipers, tire repair and such. About $.01/mile is a safe figure though...even counting that I lost two tires last year (my bad).

So that's about $.13/mile so far...add in a couple cents per mile for insurance ($.018 last year) and we're up to $.15/mile with everything.

I chose $.20-.30 since that is what I was going on all year.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Wil_Iam_Fuber'd said:


> It's easy to come up with any operating cost number one chooses to rationalize...using logic such as, "it hasn't happened yet so I can ignore it." If you're going to come up with a "valid" UX cost range then one must first standardize on which costs must be in or out. This is a concept widely accepted in business use called "Generally Accepted Accounting Practices GAAP)". But have fun beating this expired equine in any case.


I consider all actual costs and add $2,000 for unknown repairs. I used none of the $2,000 last year so I will have reserved $4,000 in my accounting by the end of this year if not used.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> The truth is that under normal ownership circumstances, none of us knows the cost per mile until we sell the car. Period. End of story. You have to plan for repairs and for replacing the vehicle. You might skate by doing otherwise for a while, but you won't in the long term.
> 
> Any idiot can say, "gas costs xx, and insurance is yy and I'm amortizing a vehicle of XXXX cost over YYYYYYYYY miles," but that is just an ill-conceived plan.
> 
> What does God do when we plan?


You don't both include lost equity and "replacing the vehicle." You're paying as you go. I avoided your conundrum of the cost of the vehicle by assuming zero value when it is no longer allowed at 10 years of age and dividing the original value over the actual miles I drive projecting out until it expires.


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## Tequila Jake (Jan 28, 2016)

I figure my costs at about $0.162/mile. 
Gasoline (at $1.60/gallon) - $0.08
Tires (assuming 50K miles) - $0.012
Depreciation (based on mileage only, not time) - $0.05
Mileage based maintenance - $0.011
TNC Insurance Endorsement (based on 40K miles/year) - $0.009


I calculated the mileage depreciation by simply going to Edmunds.com and valuing my car with my actual mileage, and then ran the numbers again with 5000 extra miles.

I didn't factor any reserve for other maintenance like brakes, shocks, etc. or breakdown/fix (much of which should be covered by extended warranty). I probably should factor in the cost of what I paid for the extended warranty. That might add an additional $0.05/mile.

This is for a 2008 Escape, not an economical car for ridesharing. But that's not why I bought it, and I'm not gonna buy a dedicated ridesharing car.


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## gman (Jul 28, 2014)

Aw Jeez said:


> Some of you guys are funny. You don't count insurance in your cost per mile because you'd be paying it anyway?? What, you think the insurance cost stops? It costs you geniuses money for EVERY mile you drive, whether it's for Uber or personally. The car doesn't know what you're doing with it. To not include instance costs in your Uber calculations is erroneous and misleading.


Well most of us are interested in knowing what _additional_ cost driving for Uber imposes on us, not just the actual cost of driving the car.

I guess maybe you missed that part.


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## Tequila Jake (Jan 28, 2016)

huskybiker said:


> I'm at approx .40 per mile. Here's how I came to that number: Car $18500 divided by 100,000 miles = 18.5 per mile. Gas $2 per gal divided by 28 = 7 per mile. Tires $600 divided by 30,000 miles = 2 per mile. Oil change (synthetic) $60 divided by 5,000 miles = .15 per mile. Brakes $200 divided by 20,000 miles = 1 per mile. Insurance $100 divided by 1000 miles per month = .10 per mile. Of course this cost is for every mile I drive, not just my Uber miles.


There's a math error in your calculation so your actual cost is much lower. Your oil change is only 0.012 per mile, not $0.15 so your total is $0.278, not $0.40. Insurance per mile seems high. You only drive 1000 miles per month?

Also, the base cost of $0.185 is assuming that at 100,000 miles, the car has no value at all.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Stygge said:


> Yes, the 18.5 c per mile includes repairs and replacement. It may be a little high but I think that is a great approximation. Whatever residual value the car has after 100k miles can be put towards any unlikely repairs.


So you're paying for two cars?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Nobody's car operates under $.25 per mile unless you are driving a minivan that operates with pixie dust.


My gas is .8 a mile.

My lost equity is .5 a mile.

That leaves $2,000 a year for maintenance and repairs.

If I'm low at .17 a mile, it's not by much. When I itemize, that's what I come up with, .17 a mile.


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## Just one more trip (Jun 14, 2015)

Stygge said:


> Buy a new car for $45,000. Drive 100k and sell for $10,000. That's 35c per mile right there.


Cool! You do not pay for gas. You do not wash your car. You do not wax the car or detail the inside. You do not have the dead miles that all of us in Texas have which means 100,000 miles gets you paid for at best 50,000 miles.

That means you just about make enought money to pay for the car, then since you do not buy gas, wash the car, clean the inside, or do any of the other things that we mere mortal drivers have to do to go down the road, you may make that $10,000 (until the IRS gets involved).

Tell the Fuber office the people of planet Earth are not buying their lies any longer. We cannot afford them based on what they pay drivers.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

Just one more trip said:


> Cool! You do not pay for gas. You do not wash your car. You do not wax the car or detail the inside. You do not have the dead miles that all of us in Texas have which means 100,000 miles gets you paid for at best 50,000 miles.
> 
> That means you just about make enought money to pay for the car, then since you do not buy gas, wash the car, clean the inside, or do any of the other things that we mere mortal drivers have to do to go down the road, you may make that $10,000 (until the IRS gets involved).
> 
> Tell the Fuber office the people of planet Earth are not buying their lies any longer. We cannot afford them based on what they pay drivers.


Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
Everything you just wrote is wrong and you don't appear to have read much of the thread.
Just to make it simple for you:
I pay for gas
I wash my car
I wax my car and detail the inside
I do drive dead miles
I did not buy a new car for $45,000 and I have not driven it 100k

This is all off topic though because this is not what the discussion was about.

If you want to send a message to uber it's better if you do it yourself rather than to try to go through me.

Uber on!

EDIT: I am one of the few that voted above 54c. I don't know why all angry people have to attack me for underestimating when most people claim half that cost or less. Barking up the wrong tree dude.


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## Fauxknight (Aug 12, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> My gas is .8 a mile.
> 
> My lost equity is .5 a mile.
> 
> ...


You can't be at $.17 a mile if your gas is $.8 and your depreciation is $.5, that's $1.30/mile right there...


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> So you're paying for two cars?


No, but Greguzzi counts his depreciation for two cars.


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## GILD (Feb 8, 2016)

A car getting 17 a mile and $2.00 gas is 12 cents a mile. And oil change is about 1 cent a mile. 
13 cents. New tires are $500 every 40k. Thats another 2 cents a mile. 
$1000 in brakes and repairs a year, add 4 cents a mile. Your at 19 cents a mile. Id say to make minimum wage on uber youd need to drive with passenger 8 miles every hour. So add double to get them. And your at 16 miles an hour needed for minimum wage. Thats a real loss of $3 that hour, you just made $5 an hour. 
If you work 10 hours a day, your driving 160 miles a day, and losing $19 off your take from uber. Bottom line, you will make $5 an hour and like it! And put 1000 miles a week on your car, 50k a year. You will devalue your car to nothing in 3 years, no matter how new or old it is. Its a big scam really. Oh, youll bring home $500 a week for your 70 hrs of work. If overtime was calculated, you should of been paid $9 an hour and only worked 60 hrs, but because your uber you made $5 straight pay and worked 70 hrs. What a crock o crap. Uber is not a good job. Its a crap job, one step above welfare, two steps below minimum wage!


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## negeorgia (Feb 1, 2015)

.22 IF the car lasts 100,000 business miles. Less if more miles, more if less miles. That cost per mile is not known until the last mile you personally drive it.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Fauxknight said:


> You can't be at $.17 a mile if your gas is $.8 and your depreciation is $.5, that's $1.30/mile right there...


YOU AGAIN!

I stand corrected.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Stygge said:


> No, but Greguzzi counts his depreciation for two cars.


I wondered. I didn't think you would.


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## dirtylee (Sep 2, 2015)

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> False. if you buy a car at auction for $5000, put 10 k miles on it, and resell it for $6000, you still have lost value. You would have sold that car for $7000 without the extra mileage on it.
> 
> You, my friend, are making good money with your car selling business, not Uber. The cars are still depreciating every mile you drive them.


Technically you are 100% right. I have more in credit lines than I can sell. So why not uber a bit & meet potential customers.


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## oobaah (Oct 6, 2015)

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Nobody's car operates under $.25 per mile unless you are driving a minivan that operates with pixie dust.


LOL...I do...

based on my quick calcs from my TripLog app, which I turn on EVERYTIME that I Uber...this is what it shows for 2015

Total Miles driven = 13,800

Gas Spent = $900
Repairs = $230 (4 shocks, front brakes & rotors)
New Tires = $300 (all 4 corners)
Oil Change = $30 (FULL SYNTHETIC, done by myself, replaced every 10K)
New ****** Fluid = $100 (Nissan CVT fluid, 5qts @ $19/qt, replaced by me and next interval @ after 120K)

Total variable cost = $1560

*Therefore: 1,560 / 13,800 = 11.3 cent/mile*

Initial Investment: Vehicle purchase cost = $3000 (2009 model, 4-cyl, with 130K in August, 2015)

NOTE: I'm not including Insurance ($100/month) /Property Taxes ($120/yr) etc. I consider these as Un-related to the Ubering


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## UberBlackDriverLA (Aug 21, 2014)

oobaah said:


> LOL...I do...
> 
> based on my quick calcs from my TripLog app, which I turn on EVERYTIME that I Uber...this is what it shows for 2015
> 
> ...


Your time is worth something as a mechanic. That should be factored in. 
Where is the devaluation?


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

oobaah said:


> LOL...I do...
> 
> based on my quick calcs from my TripLog app, which I turn on EVERYTIME that I Uber...this is what it shows for 2015
> 
> ...


You should add something for depreciation too. How much do you think your car is worth now compared to 13,800 miles ago?


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## oobaah (Oct 6, 2015)

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Your time is worth something as a mechanic. That should be factored in.
> Where is the devaluation?


all that was done in 2hrs...and I was being slow (beer in hand slow)...and no Im not a mechanic

in my previous life (which I hated by the way), my hourly rate is $50/hr...so add $100 to the "my time" argument



Stygge said:


> You should add something for depreciation too. How much do you think your car is worth now compared to 13,800 miles ago?


I've been offered $3,800 for that lil thing...but my wife likes it so much, she said no. She claims its easy to park/drive in the city, than our 2012 Toyota Sienna....and happy wife = happy life.

All in all, there is no need to over-analyze. I will take my 0.575 cents (or whatever it is for whatever tax year) and run with it.

As we all know, this is a game where YMMV depending on how you play it, and your position in the field


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## Bromius Maximus (Feb 28, 2016)

I figure out at about 16c/mile. I drive a 2003 BMW diesel I paid $1500 for. I fully expect another 100k miles before before the next major repair.

There's a clever calculator for figuring this out at http://artofbeingcheap.com/calculator/


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## UberBlackDriverLA (Aug 21, 2014)

oobaah said:


> all that was done in 2hrs...and I was being slow (beer in hand slow)...and no Im not a mechanic
> 
> in my previous life (which I hated by the way), my hourly rate is $50/hr...so add $100 to the "my time" argument
> 
> ...


Once again, if you buy a car and resell it for more, you are in the car resale business, not Uber. If you can make $800 selling a car, why wouldn't you buy and sell cars? Much more profitable and you are not putting your families financial future on the line?


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## oobaah (Oct 6, 2015)

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Once again, if you buy a car and resell it for more, you are in the car resale business, not Uber. If you can make $800 selling a car, why wouldn't you buy and sell cars? Much more profitable and you are not putting your families financial future on the line?


You must really enjoy trying to prove you a right in every little thing...(sucks to be you)

Also, who says I dont buy & sell cars...dont make @$$-umptions...

I'm a hustler. Momma needs a house, baby need shoes, Sienna & Uber-ride are paid for (zero debt here bro!)

Re-read my post.

moving right along...


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## Ubernomics (Nov 11, 2015)

Car is cash advance ATM you technically do not get paid for your time in detroit. Suck all value out of car, car dies and money you spent on bills is gone. No savings from Uber driving = no replacement car. Ubervdriver becomes Uber passenger. 

Bada boom bada bing wa-la


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## oobaah (Oct 6, 2015)

Ubernomics ...while I agree with most of what you said above...

I read somewhere on this forum that a min ride in Detroit is more than a min ride in LA (someone did a calc on that)

Which COULD mean that Detroit has a lot of very short rides that have extended time delay (hence the $0.30/min rate)...which in turn, means less miles on the car during the actual rides?


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## Ubernomics (Nov 11, 2015)

oobaah said:


> Ubernomics ...while I agree with most of what you said above...
> 
> I read somewhere on this forum that a min ride in Detroit is more than a min ride in LA (someone did a calc on that)
> 
> Which COULD mean that Detroit has a lot of very short rides that have extended time delay (hence the $0.30/min rate)...which in turn, means less miles on the car during the actual rides?


Most rides are 7 - 18 min to pick-up and go anywhere from 2.5 miles - 8 miles. Average run i would say is about 4 miles.


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## Ubernomics (Nov 11, 2015)

Short rides in the City of detroit take a lot longer than burbs but gross nothinggg in miles, near -0-


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

oobaah said:


> Ubernomics ...while I agree with most of what you said above...
> 
> I read somewhere on this forum that a min ride in Detroit is more than a min ride in LA (someone did a calc on that)
> 
> Which COULD mean that Detroit has a lot of very short rides that have extended time delay (hence the $0.30/min rate)...which in turn, means less miles on the car during the actual rides?


You make $432 per day in Detroit for just keeping a rider in your car. No driving necessary.

My average speed with passenger is about 20 mph. At that speed in Detroit I would make $1.20 per mile. At 60 mph they make $0.6 per mile.

EDIT: At 10 mph they make$2.10 per mile. I guess nobody runs a yellow light in Detroit.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

Ubernomics said:


> Most rides are 7 - 18 min to pick-up and go anywhere from 2.5 miles - 8 miles. Average run i would say is about 4 miles.


18 minutes to pick up is way up there. Do drivers pick up at those distances? I would say 7 minutes pick up time is really on the limit.


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## Ubernomics (Nov 11, 2015)

Stygge said:


> You make $432 per day in Detroit for just keeping a rider in your car. No driving necessary.
> 
> My average speed with passenger is about 20 mph. At that speed in Detroit I would make $1.20 per mile. At 60 mph they make $0.6 per mile.
> You used 30 min of time for 2.2 miles. Its $8hr with no expenses taken out, thats what it is. Roll it up pack it in a pipe snort it do the FUber any way you like. One way or the other if you do enough hullucininigens you can believe whatever Uber feeds to ya
> ...


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## Ubernomics (Nov 11, 2015)

Stygge said:


> 18 minutes to pick up is way up there. Do drivers pick up at those distances? I would say 7 minutes pick up time is really on the limit.


Dont try fancy math...simply its shit money. Thinking about Uber makes me sick.


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## Ubernomics (Nov 11, 2015)

oobaah said:


> Ubernomics ...while I agree with most of what you said above...
> 
> I read somewhere on this forum that a min ride in Detroit is more than a min ride in LA (someone did a calc on that)
> 
> Which COULD mean that Detroit has a lot of very short rides that have extended time delay (hence the $0.30/min rate)...which in turn, means less miles on the car during the actual rides?


Let me say it below to..
Ever seen cash advance place. Uber = cash advance out of car, no hourly wage...car dies = uber driver becomes uber pax. Dont you folks forget...one day you havvvvve to buy another car...that is missing link to being "Uberfied" that no one factors and that my friends is simple "Ubernomics". Its a game of fooling the fools and getting rich doing it.


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

I drive a fully depreciated 2008 Prius with 95k miles. 

I've been driving Uber for about 20k miles. I've put two new tires on it and left the old ones on the back. The tires I get from Goodyear cost about $600 for a set of 4. I recall they have a a 60k+ warranty and I've found that they actually do last that long. The two on the back are getting close to 40-50k now, will have to check. 

$600/60,000 miles = 1 cent / mile

Gas in NJ is $1.59/gallon and I'm getting 42 MPG. 

$1.59 per gallon / 42 MPG = 3.7 cents / mile

Oil changes are $35 every 5,000 miles. 

$35 / 5000 = 0.7 cents / mile

I just replaced the HID bulbs myself for $70. They are good for another 100k miles. Not even going to both counting them. 

The car has been in the shop once when a chipmunk or squirrel got in the belts and destroyed the water pump. That's one $600 repair in 95k miles. Not counting it as it happened 2 years before Uber. 

Grand total: 5.4 cents / mile!

You can't make money on UberX buying new cars or anything other than a Prius, unless you are buying that car for other purposes (e.g. you like it and would've bought it anyway). But you can make a but driving fully depreciated reliable cars that you need to own for another reason (second family car, getting to day job, etc). 

My earnings for all miles (including dead) are around 57 cents / mile, so I'm making about 51 cents / miles in profit. 

However, if I bought a new car and drove it for Uber I'd be killing my earnings by depreciating the value of the car that otherwise would have been saved. 

The only way I'm buying a new car is if I make enough to buy it outright, and then some, driving Uber on this one. Even then I think I'd prefer to buy another newer used Prius and drive that for Uber instead of my new car.


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Undermensch said:


> I drive a fully depreciated 2008 Prius with 95k miles.
> 
> I've been driving Uber for about 20k miles. I've put two new tires on it and left the old ones on the back. The tires I get from Goodyear cost about $600 for a set of 4. I recall they have a a 60k+ warranty and I've found that they actually do last that long. The two on the back are getting close to 40-50k now, will have to check.
> 
> ...


Do you mean your car is worth zero?
Or do you mean you donated it's value


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## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)




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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Do you mean your car is worth zero?
> Or do you mean you donated it's value


It means a couple things to me:

1) On a tax basis, if I had depreciated the vehicle when I bought it new in 2008 I would now have fully depreciated the purchase price of the vehicle and would not be able to use it to deduct from my gross revenue anymore.

2) The car is paid off and worth between $2k and $4.5k in trade (according to two quotes I got from dealers when considering selling it) and up to $8k in a private party sale if I got really lucky. In other words, it's practically worthless. To me, it drives great and looks great, but no one is going to pay me big money for it and if I crashed it and totaled it I might not even file a claim as it could increase my rates more than I'd get back for it.

3) Any miles I get it of the car now (it's at 95k miles) are essentially "bonus miles". This is the mile range at which cars typically fall apart. Granted, lots of people drive cars for longer than that and get lucky. But that's it: luck. If the motors, engine, or planetary gearset went on this I wouldn't fix it. The repair would cost more than half the value of the car.

In summary, the car is not expected to produce any future value and the fact that it is is awesome.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Undermensch said:


> It means a couple things to me:
> 
> 1) On a tax basis, if I had depreciated the vehicle when I bought it new in 2008 I would now have fully depreciated the purchase price of the vehicle and would not be able to use it to deduct from my gross revenue anymore.
> 
> ...


Delete reality 
Insert feel good Phsycological therapy

If it works for you good

I see a 8k vehicle 
Fully depreciated = sitting at junk yard 
Btw junkyard pays 650.00 per vehicle


----------



## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Delete reality
> Insert feel good Phsycological therapy
> 
> If it works for you good
> ...


Sorry, but who said accounting and tax accounting has anything to do with reality?

Depreciation is the rate at which you are allowed to deduct the cost of an asset off of your revenue.

If you buy a $1 million stamping machine you can't deduct all $1 million off your taxes in year 1 even if it made you more than $1 million in revenue that year. The tax laws slow the rate at which you are allowed to do that. They might force you to slow down to 10 or 20 years on your depreciation schedule.

You could own that machine for 50 years though. For 30-40 years it would be fully depreciated and worth nothing as an offset to revenue. But it would be worth a lot to you in that it still stamps metal that makes you money and it doesn't cost you anything to buy a new machine.

As I told you in #1, the vehicle has no tax depreciation value left. It has exited the schedule.

Depreciation has nothing to do with reality.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

Undermensch said:


> Sorry, but who said accounting and tax accounting has anything to do with reality?
> 
> Depreciation is the rate at which you are allowed to deduct the cost of an asset off of your revenue.
> 
> ...


My CPA handles depreciation
But there is always a equipment acquisition cost 
You already own the vehicle But your equipment acquisition cost is not Zero

I buy heavily depreciated used vehicles for my driving ( super cheap ) 
I get some depreciation for about 3 years of use 
But depreciation has to be I wack with initial cost & sell price at retirement

It sounds to me like you donated your vehicle to uber


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

I meant to say in Wack 

12k purchase 
3 years later sold for 4K = 8K in depredation 
you tax depreciation has to be in Wack


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> $0.185 + $0.07 + $0.02 + $0.15 + $0.01 + $0.1 = 53.5 cents per mile.
> 
> And this doesn't include any reserve for repairs or for replacing the vehicle when it is worn out.
> 
> Can the "muh costs are only 17 cents a mile" contingent tell us again how the 54 cents per mile the IRS allows is not based on reality?


This is some of the worst math EVER.


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

bsliv said:


> To decide if its wise to drive for Uber, the question should be what are the additional costs to drive for Uber vs the cost to not drive for Uber.
> 
> I need a car for my primary job. I'll be making car payments, paying insurance, and keeping it registered even if I don't drive for Uber. I have a lot of spare time and have been watching the Three Stooges on tv and reading this forum (not much difference). I could continue on to Mickey Mouse or drive for Uber. I think driving for Uber would be more profitable.
> 
> ...


Please stop using common sense.


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> False. if you buy a car at auction for $5000, put 10 k miles on it, and resell it for $6000, you still have lost value. You would have sold that car for $7000 without the extra mileage on it.
> 
> You, my friend, are making good money with your car selling business, not Uber. The cars are still depreciating every mile you drive them.


You can't be this vapid. 
Can you?


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

UberPartnerDennis said:


> interesting app, but you arent figuring into it what your time is worth per mile......figure that out and your .28 a mile goes up


Things that are irrelevant to the COST OF DRIVING.

Your profit margin isn't what's being asked.


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## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

GILD said:


> A car getting 17 a mile and $2.00 gas is 12 cents a mile. And oil change is about 1 cent a mile.
> 13 cents. New tires are $500 every 40k. Thats another 2 cents a mile.
> $1000 in brakes and repairs a year, add 4 cents a mile. Your at 19 cents a mile. Id say to make minimum wage on uber youd need to drive with passenger 8 miles every hour. So add double to get them. And your at 16 miles an hour needed for minimum wage. Thats a real loss of $3 that hour, you just made $5 an hour.
> If you work 10 hours a day, your driving 160 miles a day, and losing $19 off your take from uber. Bottom line, you will make $5 an hour and like it! And put 1000 miles a week on your car, 50k a year. You will devalue your car to nothing in 3 years, no matter how new or old it is. Its a big scam really. Oh, youll bring home $500 a week for your 70 hrs of work. If overtime was calculated, you should of been paid $9 an hour and only worked 60 hrs, but because your uber you made $5 straight pay and worked 70 hrs. What a crock o crap. Uber is not a good job. Its a crap job, one step above welfare, two steps below minimum wage!


WHAT. THE. HELL.

*insert MJ crying meme*


----------



## WeirdBob (Jan 2, 2016)

2 Pennies A Mile! 2 Pennies a Mile!


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## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Do you mean your car is worth zero?
> Or do you mean you donated it's value


This is a bad joke. 
I'm on an episode of Punk'd


----------



## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> My CPA handles depreciation
> But there is always a equipment acquisition cost
> You already own the vehicle But your equipment acquisition cost is not Zero
> 
> ...


You are buying your vehicle specifically for Uber it seems.

I'm not. I bought this car 8 years ago to drive to my day job and since then it's the second family car we use when we need to be more than one place at a time on the weekends. I have to have this car whether I drive it for Uber or not.

At its age if I held it for 3 years with no additional miles or put another 80k miles on it in 3 years the end value would be about the same, probably around $1,500 to $2,000. Max this thing costs me $500 difference between not driving and driving over 3 years.

In other words, it costs me, in my situation, nothing.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA (Aug 21, 2014)

GlenGreezy said:


> You can't be this vapid.
> Can you?


Sorry that I'm not sorry that I bore you.

Downplay it all you want but the facts do not change. No matter what your circumstances are with your car, whether you buy and sell cars or whether it is financed or paid for, it is all irrellevant.

Your car has a value at any point in time. EVERY MILE YOU DRIVE IT THE VALUE GOES DOWN. Unless your car is already worth nothing (or close to it), no exceptions or justifications will change this.


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

If he buys is BELOW value and sells it FOR MORE than he buys it...

His actual cost is negative. He made money. (Theoretically you can argue he didn't make as much as he could have and call that "a loss" but... Nah.


----------



## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

Greguzzi said:


> $0.185 + $0.07 + $0.02 + $0.15 + $0.01 + $0.1 = 53.5 cents per mile.
> 
> And this doesn't include any reserve for repairs or for replacing the vehicle when it is worn out.
> 
> Can the "muh costs are only 17 cents a mile" contingent tell us again how the 54 cents per mile the IRS allows is not based on reality?


How do you figure 54 cents across all vehicle types is based on any sort of reality?

That rate is used for both $60k SUVs that chew through $1,200 sets of tires in 40k miles (not to mention gas) and $25k Priuses that use $500 sets of tires for 60k+ miles and barely use any gas.

Additionally, the standard rate can be taken indefinitely, way past the actual value and expense cost of the car. For example, let's say you buy your $25k Prius and drive it 200k miles for Uber. You would deduct $108,000 cost for operating that $25k car! Your gas (@ 55 MPG and $2/gallon) would cost only $7.5k, everything else is negligible. So you're going to deduct an extra $70k beyond any and all costs associated with the car.

Explain again how that is based on reality?


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Sorry that I'm not sorry that I bore you.
> 
> Downplay it all you want but the facts do not change. No matter what your circumstances are with your car, whether you buy and sell cars or whether it is financed or paid for, it is all irrellevant.
> 
> Your car has a value at any point in time. EVERY MILE YOU DRIVE IT THE VALUE GOES DOWN. Unless your car is already worth nothing (or close to it), no exceptions or justifications will change this.


When your car value reaches $250.00 you can lose no more.
They will come to your house and give you $250.00 to tow it off and crush it.


----------



## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

tohunt4me said:


> When your car value reaches $250.00 you can lose no more.
> They will come to your house and give you $250.00 to tow it off and crush it.


Yup, wholesale metal value then they take the retail profit from the metal.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

GlenGreezy said:


> If he buys is BELOW value and sells it FOR MORE than he buys it...
> 
> His actual cost is negative. He made money. (Theoretically you can argue he didn't make as much as he could have and call that "a loss" but... Nah.


If you can break a profit flipping used cars
Why would you drive for penny's ??

Invest that time buying & selling used cars !

driving for uber made you lose the street smart you were portraying playa


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

GlenGreezy said:


> If he buys is BELOW value and sells it FOR MORE than he buys it...
> 
> His actual cost is negative. He made money. (Theoretically you can argue he didn't make as much as he could have and call that "a loss" but... Nah.


You do paperwork on more than 4 or 5 cars in a year, then the state wants you to get a Dealers License.
They DO notice when you turn them over instead of keeping them.
You can do that with some cars if you are carefull.


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> If you can break a profit flipping used cars
> Why would you drive for penny's ??
> 
> Invest that time buying & selling used cars !
> ...


To SELL CARS TO YOUR UBER RIDERS !

JUST CONVINCE THEM THEY WILL MAKE A FORTUNE DRIVING FOR UBER . . .
( a month or so ago, I gave 3 people rides to car lots to buy cars to drive for Uber.wish I would have had my referral code )


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

tohunt4me said:


> To SELL CARS TO YOUR UBER RIDERS !
> 
> JUST CONVINCE THEM THEY WILL MAKE A FORTUNE DRIVING FOR UBER . . .


Ok

But the fact you were able to buy a car LOW
USE it for uber , sell it for MORE than you bought it .......
Means you subsidized uber anyways

You are pretending cost is not real


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

I've been eyeing 14 passenger bus/ vans in eBay with handicap lifts.
($$$ in Medical Transportation)
(The seats fold up, can put up to 5 wheel chairs on it, comes with tie downs and all,elect. Hydraulic lift handles over 800 lbs.)
If it didn't work out ,could part truck out for more than auction price. Lift is 10k,can sell diesel engine to shrimp boat for 3-5 k,trans for $1,500 ,rear AC unit to a boat for $500,tires,Alcoa rims,profit in chopping it up.
Got a nice Ford 2011, good price,diesel 14 mpg city 20 mpg hwy.
They ever start Pool down here, this will be my ride. Sure I can make 5 more stops on the way ! Got 11 mores seats . . .
They want bus prices . . . I give them a bus !


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

tohunt4me said:


> I've been eyeing 14 passenger bus/ vans in eBay with handicap lifts.
> ($$$ in Medical Transportation)
> Got a nice Ford 2011, good price,diesel 14 mpg city 20 mpg hwy.
> They ever start Pool down here, this will be my ride. Sure I can make 5 more stops on the way ! Got 11 mores seats . . .
> They want bus prices . . . I give them a bus !


Dealing used cars is probably a better bussiness than driving


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## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> If you can break a profit flipping used cars
> Why would you drive for penny's ??
> 
> Invest that time buying & selling used cars !
> ...


Because he wants to.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

GlenGreezy said:


> Because he wants to.


You just went from Playa wana be 
To generic moron 
Nice try do


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Ok
> 
> But the fact you were able to buy a car LOW
> USE it for uber , sell it for MORE than you bought it .......
> ...


That's not what it means. It means he made money ubering and made MORE that the average person would because his vehicle costs are negative negatives. (A positive)


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> If you can break a profit flipping used cars
> Why would you drive for penny's ??
> 
> Invest that time buying & selling used cars !
> ...


What street smart?

Are you a stupid racist yakub or nah?


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

GlenGreezy said:


> That's not what it means. It means he made money ubering and made MORE that the average person would because his vehicle costs are negative negatives. (A positive)


Playa 
You could have sold that car even higher if you did not add more miles driving uber

If you can buy a car and make 500.00
Why drive for penny's ???


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

GlenGreezy said:


> What street smart?
> 
> You a stupid racist yakub or nah?


I'm paisa bro 
Not racist 
I'm just killing your "style"


----------



## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> I'm paisa bro
> Not racist
> I'm just killing your "style"


I have no style. You are clearly an idiot and most likely racist.

Have a good day "style killer"


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

GlenGreezy said:


> I have no style. You are clearly an idiot and most likely racist.
> 
> Have a good day "style killer"


Advice for you
make that cheddar flipping cars
500.00 plus per transaction
Rinse & repeat
I'll have lots of respect for you ( you time is worth 100.00 per hour )

But then you donate that to .90 cents a mile
C'mon man !!!


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Dealing used cars is probably a better bussiness than driving


I live 35 miles from gulf of Mexico.
I can part out school busses,transplant engines to boats and do well here.
Just have to watch which engines you buy.even cat c-7 has bad name now.Ford 6 liter ,ez fix to the factory problems.I do the Uber assist bit, I'm going diesel.
I see same engines used in busses,they're selling for $7,000 used on eBay.whole damn bus including Allison trans. Is $1,500.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

tohunt4me said:


> I live 35 miles from gulf of Mexico.
> I can part out school busses,transplant engines to boats and do well here.
> Just have to watch which engines you buy.even cat c-7 has bad name now.Ford 6 liter ,ez fix to the factory problems.I do the Uber assist bit, I'm going diesel.


Good for you


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Undermensch said:


> In other words, *it costs me*, in my situation, *nothing*.


Until it has to be replaced.


----------



## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

It doesn't cost me anything to drive. I take all the HOT AIR and SMOKE that Uber blows up my rear and convert it to fuel to drive my insanity of doing this gig for peanut pay.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Advice for you
> make that cheddar flipping cars
> 500.00 plus per transaction
> Rinse & repeat
> ...


Good thing about driving Uber is it exposes you to people,places,and ideas.
I drive Dr.'s,music execs,people I normally would not have met.
Always looking,always thinking.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

tohunt4me said:


> Good thing about driving Uber is it exposes you to people,places,and ideas.
> I drive Dr.'s,music execs,people I normally would not have met.
> Always looking,always thinking.


True 
But 
There is a cost behind it 
Using abilities or assets you may posses
To not feel the cost of operation
Does not mean the cost is not there

At the end of day cost of operation was donated to uber 
But you were able to break a bigger profit levering driving .... Kudos

But that would not be the norm 
It's the exception

In the past I've turned my personal car in to a livery car 
@ tax time I calculated the ACV on vehicle 
And declared it a sell to my self for tax purposes

There in no free lunch


----------



## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

I.R.s. says you can lose money for 3 years.
Change business name, lose another 3 years.
Never got audited in my life till I started buying stock.
Market crash 08. Made a killing.
( 1st audit they said I overpaid. Sent me $800.00 back)


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

tohunt4me said:


> I.R.s. says you can lose money for 3 years.
> Change business name, lose another 3 years.
> Never got audited in my life till I started buying stock.
> Market crash 08. Made a killing.
> ( 1st audit they said I overpaid. Sent me $800.00 back)


I "try" to keep it kosher with unle Sam 
I'm blessed half of my rides are pay in cash 
It can be good to be app free


----------



## GooberX (May 13, 2015)

Aw Jeez said:


> Some of you guys are funny. You don't count insurance in your cost per mile because you'd be paying it anyway?? What, you think the insurance cost stops? It costs you geniuses money for EVERY mile you drive, whether it's for Uber or personally. The car doesn't know what you're doing with it. To not include instance costs in your Uber calculations is erroneous and misleading.
> 
> It is true that your exact cost per mile cannot be known in advance. But you can make some very accurate predictions if you know how many miles you are likely to drive in a given year. Take how much you drove over the last three months and multiply by four to give you a twelve month average. Use this number when you calculate, say, insurance cost per mile.
> 
> ...


Actually, the insurance company wants to know the mileage on the car on an annual basis.

Your premium is based partly on the number of miles you claim to drive, and if different, the premium WILL be adjusted.


----------



## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

GooberX said:


> Actually, the insurance company wants to know the mileage on the car on an annual basis.
> 
> Your premium is based partly on the number of miles you claim to drive, and if different, the premium WILL be adjusted.


Have you had them change your rate when you told them you drove more or less miles? For me it never made a difference so I stopped worrying about it. What has been your experience?


----------



## kideyse (Oct 22, 2015)

Am I missing something here? the "Ride Sharing" statutes in most states allow for being compensated for "expense recovery only". If you make profits or wages then it is a commercial ride requiring you and your vehicle to be licensed, registered, and insured as such.


----------



## MulletMan (Mar 2, 2016)

Here is a spreadsheet that calculates costs for various mpg rates. You can edit the red cells. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z68O-MAj7S31Yhw69B7B05leAyd1ACyOOgcmyHKT7as/edit?usp=sharing










If I have a car that gets 20 mpg and I trade for a car that gets 50 mpg, my savings over 30k miles with gas at $2 is $1,800.


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## dirtylee (Sep 2, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Advice for you
> make that cheddar flipping cars
> 500.00 plus per transaction
> Rinse & repeat
> ...


Selling cars to real buyers with cash to pay for them is a ***** & that's if the car is perfect. Uber let's me cash out some of the miles bridge cash flow droughts. I only uber at late evenings & nights anyways.


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

dirtylee said:


> Selling cars to real buyers with cash to pay for them is a ***** & that's if the car is perfect. Uber let's me cash out some of the miles bridge cash flow droughts. I only uber at late evenings & nights anyways.


He said he buys low and sells high 
There for cost is zero

If you have nice cash flow good for you 
IMO it's hard work for a trickle at best


----------



## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

The way this thread has developed I bet it's great entertainment at the uber corporate Friday happy hour.


----------



## oobaah (Oct 6, 2015)

tohunt4me said:


> When your car value reaches $250.00 you can lose no more.
> They will come to your house and give you $250.00 to tow it off and crush it.


I just sold a 2002 nissan sentra for $2,300.

bought for "scrap" price of $300. fixed the problem for $400.

guess what?....I still uber on my free time

Actually, Ubering allows me to "write-off" the fuel cost, as I drive-around waiting for pings and scanning for these "scraps"


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

oobaah said:


> I just sold a 2002 nissan sentra for $2,300.
> 
> bought for "scrap" price of $300. fixed the problem for $400.
> 
> ...


You made 2400.00 is one transaction
@ 4.00 short rides it would take more than 1000 rides to make 2400.00
But you get to deduct 200.00 in gas
Very smart bussiness


----------



## oobaah (Oct 6, 2015)

some of ya'll talk like you cant chew gum & walk at the same time....LOL

I chew & walk...and snap my fingers...all at the same time


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

oobaah said:


> some of ya'll talk like you cant chew gum & walk at the same time....LOL
> 
> I chew & walk...and snap my fingers...all at the same time


Next thing you know 10 years passed you by 
Uber on !!!


----------



## oobaah (Oct 6, 2015)

tohunt4me said:


> Good thing about driving Uber is it exposes you to people,places,and ideas.
> I drive Dr.'s,music execs,people I normally would not have met.
> Always looking,always thinking.


THIS...Is what I'm taking about...chew gum/walk/snap finger


----------



## oobaah (Oct 6, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> Next thing you know 10 years passed you by
> Uber on !!!


Methinks you are NATURALLY a negative person...

I think you should take a sabbatical from this forum. Its adding to your negativity.

As much as others show independent thinking, and demonstrate a different game plan, you seem to navigate to the cynical/naysayer side...LOL

maybe that "20-yr-driving" has messed with your POV


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

oobaah said:


> Methinks you are NATURALLY a negative person...
> 
> I think you should take a sabbatical from this forum. Its adding to your negativity.
> 
> ...


Reality does not mean negativity

Positivity is clearly foolish in your case

2400 vs 4 bucks. Simple math 
Spin it as you wish


----------



## 20yearsdriving (Dec 14, 2014)

I just tap danced for 5 min
Guess what 4 bucks is still 4 bucks


----------



## ajcadoo (Jan 22, 2015)

2015 GTI > .57/mile


----------



## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

20yearsdriving said:


> I just tap danced for 5 min
> Guess what 4 bucks is still 4 bucks


Looks like another 20 years for you then!


----------



## huskybiker (Jan 4, 2016)

Tequila Jake said:


> There's a math error in your calculation so your actual cost is much lower. Your oil change is only 0.012 per mile, not $0.15 so your total is $0.278, not $0.40. Insurance per mile seems high. You only drive 1000 miles per month?
> 
> Also, the base cost of $0.185 is assuming that at 100,000 miles, the car has no value at all.


Well, I'm sure I missed something along the line which will make up for it. Yes, only about 1000 miles per month. Car sits in the garage most of the time.


----------



## Aw Jeez (Jul 13, 2015)

See, here's the thing: Some of you think that just because you own the car anyway, it doesn't cost you anything *extra* to drive for Uber...in other words, driving for Uber is "free." Nonsense. What you're forgetting is that it costs you money for EVERY mile you drive your car. So what you make from Uber *has* to be more than what it costs you to make that money, right?

Driving for Uber *will* increase your costs to some degree, but that's not what's important. What's important is how much your car costs you to drive it ALL THE TIME. Knowing this figure will help you to know whether you're making a profit with Uber or just wasting your time.

Certain costs-per-mile go down the more you drive. Take insurance. If your insurance is $3,000/year and you drive only 15,000 miles in a year, then your insurance cost is $0.20 - twenty cents per mile. Crank your mileage up to 100,000/year and your insurance cost goes down to $0.03 - three cents per mile. Gasoline cost on the other hand stay pretty constant. If your car gets 30 mpg and gas costs $2.00/gallon then your gasoline cost is $0.066 - about six and a half cents per mile - no matter how many miles you drive. So it's difficult to get an exact cost/mile until you have an idea of how many miles you're going to drive in a given year. There are plenty of spreadsheets and charts that can show you how to do that. Get that cost-per-mile number - know that it will be a "best guess" or pretty close approximation of what it costs you to operate the vehicle.

Figuring revenue-per-mile is trickier. You can't just take the miles in which you have a fare in the car for which you're getting paid. Because there are "other" miles involved: cruising around while waiting for a ping, or "dead-heading" back empty from a far-away drop-off. Yes, those are all business miles and must be figured in. In my taxi I make $2.25 per mile when the meter is on. But it turns out that in this market I drive about an equal number of dead-head miles as paid miles. If I make say, $3,000 in a month I will have driven about 3,000 miles to make that money (I only use the taxi for business). So I make $1.00 per mile. I cannot survive on less than that, so doing Uber in my town is not feasible at this time and at your low rates. It's a losing proposition. And yes, I've done the numbers. (Oh, and remember that these are pre-tax numbers. We are taxed on our gross revenue. The mileage deduction that the IRS allows does *not* completely wipe out any tax liability - you're still gonna pay taxes.)

So it's simple: Take your total Uber revenue and divide that by the total number of miles you drove for Uber. That'll give you your Uber revenue-per-mile. Compare that number to your total cost-per-mile to operate the car. Hopefully your Uber number will be higher than your operating cost. How much higher it needs to be will be up to you. If you only drive part-time and just need a little extra cash, then Uber probably makes sense.


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## kideyse (Oct 22, 2015)

If u r doing UberX or Lyft, and u do show a profit, I hope the state regulators don't see your state tax return. As stated b4 on this thread, making a profit or earning wages for "ride sharing" is illegal in most states.


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

Aw Jeez said:


> See, here's the thing: Some of you think that just because you own the car anyway, it doesn't cost you anything *extra* to drive for Uber...in other words, driving for Uber is "free." Nonsense. What you're forgetting is that it costs you money for EVERY mile you drive your car. So what you make from Uber *has* to be more than what it costs you to make that money, right?
> 
> Driving for Uber *will* increase your costs to some degree, but that's not what's important. What's important is how much your costs you to drive ALL THE TIME. Knowing this figure will help you to know whether you're making a profit with Uber or just wasting your time.
> 
> ...


I've done all of that. I posted my earnings spreadsheets over in the Pay section.

I count *all* miles driven on those sheets, not just when I have a fare.

I also counted all of my expenses for the vehicle.

Nobody seems interested in this though. I post facts, they don't dispute any of them but instead turn to personal attacks. Not sure why...


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Undermensch said:


> I've done all of that. I posted my earnings spreadsheets over in the Pay section.
> 
> I count *all* miles driven on those sheets, not just when I have a fare.
> 
> ...


There are two types of metrics 'round heah.
Those which are tried and true based on all expenses and all miles,
And "UberMetrics".

No matter what those of us who have centuries of combined taxi/livery fleet management experience counsel, UberMetrics prevail. 
They "feel" better.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

kideyse said:


> If u r doing UberX or Lyft, and u do show a profit, I hope the state regulators don't see your state tax return. As stated b4 on this thread, making a profit or earning wages for "ride sharing" is illegal in most states.


Not at all. Last I looked 40ish states had TNC laws making them legal. Other states/cities are free market and not lefty areas that regulate everything so TNC would never have been illegal in the first place.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Undermensch said:


> I've done all of that. I posted my earnings spreadsheets over in the Pay section.
> 
> I count *all* miles driven on those sheets, not just when I have a fare.
> 
> ...


Yep. It doesn't matter how much you support your numbers, some will hate that you are honest about them and not inflating them.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Aw Jeez said:


> Certain costs-per-mile go down the more you drive. Take insurance.


Sunk costs, costs you would incur anyways like insurance and taxes that do not occur or increase increase just because you Uber, are not a cost of Ubering, they are a cost of car ownership.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> There are two types of metrics 'round heah.
> Those which are tried and true based on all expenses and all miles,
> And "UberMetrics".
> 
> ...


You have to suspend logic to deny that sunk costs are not costs of Ubering.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

kideyse said:


> Am I missing something here? the "Ride Sharing" statutes in most states allow for being compensated for "expense recovery only". If you make profits or wages then it is a commercial ride requiring you and your vehicle to be licensed, registered, and insured as such.


You're missing all the new laws and states that don't over regulate.


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## kideyse (Oct 22, 2015)

Ramzfanz,
OK free market guru. Then why are uberx and Lyft rates so ridiculously low? 
From Travis's own words that u can find on some threads in this forum he cannot set prices too much higher than the $0.54/mile that the IRS allows for expenses.
According to the free market, the TNC should not be setting prices anyway.


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## Aw Jeez (Jul 13, 2015)

RamzFanz:


> You have to suspend logic to deny that sunk costs are costs of Ubering.


It is unrealistic and dishonest to say that the cost of Ubering is separate or disconnected from the cost of operating the vehicle. Sure, you own the vehicle anyway, but it's still costing you money to operate it. Those costs don't get suspended or ignored when Ubering simply because "I own the car and would have to pay them anyway." That's just...wow...dumb. I mean, if it costs you $0.40 per mile to operate the car (even if you weren't Ubering) and you're only earning $0.70 from your Uber work (after they take their cut), then you're netting $0.30 per mile. If you drive 3,000 miles per month, then you've "made" $900. That's a lot of work for not a lot of money.


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

Aw Jeez said:


> RamzFanz:
> 
> It is unrealistic and dishonest to say that the cost of Ubering is separate or disconnected from the cost of operating the vehicle. Sure, you own the vehicle anyway, but it's still costing you money to operate it. Those costs don't get suspended or ignored when Ubering simply because "I own the car and would have to pay them anyway." That's just...wow...dumb. I mean, if it costs you $0.40 per mile to operate the car (even if you weren't Ubering) and you're only earning $0.70 from your Uber work (after they take their cut), then you're netting $0.30 per mile. If you drive 3,000 miles per month, then you've "made" $900. That's a lot of work for not a lot of money.


Ok, I think all we've proven from this thread are that some people are not to adept at managing the costs of operating a business.

If you're going to make money at UberX you have to limit your costs. That means buying a VERY reliable car with little value left to depreciate, or, better yet, using a car that you already have to own for your family or day job.

I'm sure there are people paying 40 cents/mile to operate a vehicle and I fully agree they are doing a poor job of managing their business and shouldn't be driving UberX.

I've updated my spreadsheets to include a Depreciation Worksheet and a Variable Costs Worksheet. My depreciation works out to 2.8 cents/mile. My total costs are 9.3 cents/mile.

I've also included my effective tax rates (taken from another spreadsheet, which I'm NOT going to share) that show the equivalent employee pay per hour that I'm getting by losing money on a tax basis driving for Uber.


2015 Q4
Static Web Page
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16h7alNK2CjlxfjYrJI2OISfhxVK5Y3D2qPyT2nMZkCg/pubhtml

View Only Google Sheet (for formula inspection or make a copy to modify)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16h7alNK2CjlxfjYrJI2OISfhxVK5Y3D2qPyT2nMZkCg/edit?usp=sharing


2016 Q1
Static Web Page
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A8tdZKTIUDszGgYyysw7qV6wVILJEOkylq5LMj5t8VE/pubhtml

View Only Google Sheet (for formula inspection or make a copy to modify)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A8tdZKTIUDszGgYyysw7qV6wVILJEOkylq5LMj5t8VE/edit?usp=sharing



There is really nothing further to discuss. Everyone should publish their costs and own the fact that they are responsible for managing or mismanaging them. Let's stop trying to project our inability to manage our costs onto other drivers who know how to do it.


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## Tulsadude (Jan 4, 2016)

Here is my attempt to find my real cost of driving for a 2011 Nissan Versa:

Tires: $300 every 30,000 miles
- $0.01 cpm cost
Oil Changes: $40 every 5,000 miles
-$0.008 cpm cost
Brake Pads: $25 every 12,000 miles (I change them myself and buy them off Ebay)
-$0.0021 cpm cost
Depreciation: Paid $6050 cash, $292 in taxes / fees when purchased. Car miles started at 86,XXX miles. I expect my car to last until 200,000 miles and Im going to assume it has zero value at that time and will be salvaged. All these assumptions I feel are generously achievable.
-$0.056 cpm cost
Insurance / Yearly Registration Fees: No actual costs since my insurance costs would be the same with or without doing Uber and my registration fees also do not change.
-$0.00 cpm cost
Wiper Blades, Air Filter, Car fluids, lightbulbs, sparkplugs, and other MISC maintenance items not already listed: I have spent about $100 on these items in the past 15,000 miles, will be generous with my calculations below with $200 per 15k miles alloted.
-$0.014 cpm cost
Gas: 29 MPG average while doing Rideshare for the past 3 months. Assuming $2.00 gas (its $1.72 now, and was down to $1.19 about a month ago where I live). Again, very generous for current prices.
-$0.069 cpm cost

Unforeseen repairs: this is the real unknown. I feel like I have a fairly reliable car. For now Im going to state my actual cost is XX cents per mile + unforeseen repairs. Ill do some research and see if I can find any numbers. I have had zero unforeseen repairs in the last 15,000 miles.

Real cost to drive 1 mile in my situation: 15.91 cents per mile + unforeseen repairs. I could allot 20 cents per mile for repairs that are not maintenance related, which I feel would be extremely generous. In that case you could say my actual cost is 35.91 cpm.

I welcome anyone's input on if I missed something. I feel like my calculations are very generous. I would really like to know my real cost to drive, so anything you might be able to add would be great!


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

Tulsadude said:


> Here is my attempt to find my real cost of driving for a 2011 Nissan Versa:
> 
> Tires: $300 every 30,000 miles
> - $0.01 cpm cost
> ...


I think you did a good job with the costs.

Your depreciation is probably a little high. I don't know exactly which model and features you have but I checked KBB for a 2008 Versa Hatchback SL (assuming your own this 3 more years) with 200k miles in good condition and it showed a private party sale value of $3,482.

You might be up to 2.5 cpm lower then and closer to 12.5 cpm total.

Either number is still pretty decent.


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## Aw Jeez (Jul 13, 2015)

Man, I think I'm starting to sound like a broken record!

Tulsadude, why is it that you *do* include the costs of your tire replacement and oil changes and stuff into the cost-per-mile of your car, but you don't feel the need to include the cost of registration and insurance? You're trying to have it both ways and make it look like your "cost to Uber" is artificially low. If that makes you happy, great...but it is not honest or accurate. 

I'll say it again: the car costs what it costs, no matter what you're doing with it. You can fool yourself into thinking that the car doesn't cost you anything *extra* to do Uber, and you're right...I guess... But the basic cost/mile calculations still apply for your P/L statement, and the cost of registration/insurance is not something you can break out and ignore simply because you already own the car. If you want to do that, why not just say that your cost-per-mile when Ubering is zero...or just the $0.08/mile it costs you in gas? Just ignore those other costs!

I'm thinking that Travis actually counted on this...counted on the fact that people are so clueless when it comes to how much their cars cost them to run. He probably figured (correctly!) that his Uber drivers would think that since they own their cars anyway, the cost to operate them for Uber is negligible and there is no real expense of earning the Uber money other than the cost of the gasoline it takes to drive around so that they'll assume they're making more money than they are. That, and having his drivers focus on revenue-per-hour instead of cost-per-mile is his other subterfuge.

Damn, he's clever. Uber drivers? Not so much.


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

Aw Jeez said:


> Man, I think I'm starting to sound like a broken record!
> 
> Tulsadude, why is it that you *do* include the costs of your tire replacement and oil changes and stuff into the cost-per-mile of your car, but you don't feel the need to include the cost of registration and insurance? You're trying to have it both ways and make it look like your "cost to Uber" is artificially low. If that makes you happy, great...but it is not honest or accurate.
> 
> ...


It really is different than owning a car solely for commercial purposes. I guess you just don't get that.

If you already have to have a car for personal transport then the cost of the items you mention is paid already for those purposes.

If you buy an *additional* car, that you don't need for personal transport, then you would absolutely need to count the cost of registration and insurance for that car in the operating costs for that car. Similarly, if you drove Uber Black you'd have to count the commercial insurance costs and limo plate costs since you don't need those for personal use regardless of whether the car is also used for some personal purposes.

I don't think you'll ever admit to this difference though, so we can leave it.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Undermensch said:


> If you already have to have a car for personal transport then the cost of the items you mention is paid already for those purposes.


And you wouldn't include your house rent because you store your car in your rented garage. Unless you rented the garage just for the driving job. Its a cost not due to the driving job.

Now if you itemize your expenses for tax purposes, its a different story. But most are happy with the $.54 allowance. If you have other income, the allowance deduction comes in useful.


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## Aw Jeez (Jul 13, 2015)

Whatever delusions you people prefer to work under is fine by me.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Aw Jeez,


Aw Jeez said:


> Whatever delusions you people prefer to work under is fine by me.


Do you include the cost of your garage in your cost to drive for Uber?
Can you calculate your cost to take a vacation road trip to Vegas?


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## Tulsadude (Jan 4, 2016)

I don't include insurance and registration because this is my only car. I did not buy this car solely for rideshare.

I include tires and oil changes because I use this vehicle 80% of the time for rideshare which has a very large impact on how much that expense is going to be otherwise.

But if it makes you feel better, I did OVERESTIMATE my other costs, so you could say I already included it. Registration is 26 a year. Insurance 110. Just to play devil's advocate, what percent of my registration and insurance should I include in my costs according to your opinion? What percent of my home insurance should I include, because I do park that same vehicle in my garage? How much of my property tax/ mortgage should I include since I sleep in the same house that my vehicle is parked in?


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## dirtylee (Sep 2, 2015)

You can beat the depreciation game. Lets say your car stores mileage in the ecu/dash. Swap out those components with a spare & run up the miles. When you sell, put the original ones that match the vin back in. 

PS. Never take your car in to a dealership or state inspection with the spares.

I learned about this particular trick from uber black suv drivers. Its the only way Depreciation on a newish 60k ltz tahoe doesn't break you.


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## Darrell Green Fan (Feb 9, 2016)

Aw Jeez said:


> Whatever delusions you people prefer to work under is fine by me.


You are wrong. But you still don't get why so I won't bother to try to explain it.


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## Aw Jeez (Jul 13, 2015)

> What percent of my home insurance should I include, because I do park that same vehicle in my garage? How much of my property tax/ mortgage should I include since I sleep in the same house that my vehicle is parked in?


That's just stupid. Did you in fact graduate from high school? Why would you include *any* of those costs into the operating cost of the vehicle itself? A garage rented specifically for your vehicle absolutely would be figured into its operating cost. There are certain specific costs associated with operating your vehicle: registration/insurance, fees, fuel/oil, tires, and unscheduled maintenance.

You guys delude yourselves into thinking that you can break out your Uber costs and ignore the other costs associated with operating the car as if they don't exist. Sooooo...say the air conditioner goes out or you need a transmission rebuilt and it costs you $1,500 because it's a non-warranty item. Are you going to say, "Well I own the car anyway...so let's just put that expense over in the "Personal Use" column and not count it against my Uber operating cost."

Like I say, that's dishonest. But hey, whatever makes you happy.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

If I have medical insurance that covers me for both work and personal, then change jobs but keep the medical insurance, is the medical insurance a cost of the new job? No. Is it a cost for me to exist? Yes. Different questions = different answers. Sorta like this thread has answered different questions. What is the cost to run a car? And, what is the cost to drive for Uber? Different questions = different answers. 

The cost to run a car includes purchase price, insurance, registration, drivers license, fuel, maintenance, storage, education, clothes (can't be naked), tools, etc.

The cost to drive for Uber are any costs over those already accounted for in personal use. This is the decision most of us are interested in.

An expense that is required in the Personal Use column needs to be in the Personal Use column no matter what the job entails. One doesn't become cheaper to insure for personal use of a car because they drive for Uber. That fixed cost is allocated to the personal column and always will be as long as the car has the potential for personal use. If one quits Uber, they still have the exact same personal expense, its a cost to drive for personal use.

Personal insurance is a cost to drive a car. Personal insurance is not a cost to drive for Uber. For example, if I was a terrible driver paying $50,000/year for basic liability insurance, my cost per mile would be extremely high. But it still might be profitable to drive for Uber. As long as the additional costs are less than the income, its profit. If one included the insurance, it would be a loss. 

No need to insult someone's education level or comprehension skills. Its a matter of perspective.


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## JD1 (Jun 27, 2015)

Great thread, it's where the uber rubber meets the road, though some drivers seem to love uber too much.

I appreciate aww jeez for his real politik approach to identifying the disconnect between uber fantasies and reality. I have driven for eight months and my per mile cost is $0.32 mile for a 2009 Mazda Grand Touring.

My experience has been that deadhead miles are the great profit killer, usually knocks hourly rate down to $7-8 per hour based on the $0.85 per mile rate. For me, after eight months, this proposition is clearly not worth the liability and expense. Uber relies on a steady supply of desperate and/or bored drivers who do not care about their own financial and risk liabilities. It really is a predatory business model and pigs are slaughtered every mile.


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## GlenGreezy (Sep 21, 2015)

Lots of you are intellectually dishonest.


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## MulletMan (Mar 2, 2016)

Tulsadude said:


> Here is my attempt to find my real cost of driving for a 2011 Nissan Versa:
> 
> Tires: $300 every 30,000 miles
> - $0.01 cpm cost
> ...


I like it. The biggest reason I like it? Tax time. IRS gives you .54 / mile driven for work. If your costs are .36, you have a loss on paper. To keep it simple lets say you claim 10,000 miles on your tax return. THAT is a $5,400 deduction on your schedule C. However, you have only spent $3,600. In other words, all your uber money is tax free. You can look at it as if the other $1800 you save goes to reducing your tax liability on your 'real' job income ($1,800 at 25% tax rate is $450 directly in your pocket); so in a weird twisted way Uncle Sam is paying you to drive for Uber if you have an efficient car. Another reason I love my Prius C. Uber is awesome. Don't ask questions...just drive


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

MulletMan said:


> I like it. The biggest reason I like it? Tax time. IRS gives you .54 / mile driven for work. If your costs are .36, you have a loss on paper. To keep it simple lets say you claim 10,000 miles on your tax return. THAT is a $5,400 deduction on your schedule C. However, you have only spent $3,600. In other words, all your uber money is tax free. You can look at it as if the other $1800 you save goes to reducing your tax liability on your 'real' job income ($1,800 at 25% tax rate is $450 directly in your pocket); so in a weird twisted way Uncle Sam is paying you to drive for Uber if you have an efficient car. Another reason I love my Prius C. Uber is awesome. Don't ask questions...just drive


Sure.
But taking a business loss is a limited time offer. 2 years? 3 years? Eventually, the IRS disallows the loss.


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## MulletMan (Mar 2, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Sure.
> But taking a business loss is a limited time offer. 2 years? 3 years? Eventually, the IRS disallows the loss.


You may be right. I've been claiming business miles on travel for my 'real' job for years. I don't really track every mile, but put a reasonable percentage like 50% to 80%. No audit yet (crossing fingers). I've found that as long as you have positive overall earnings and pay your taxes like a good American, IRS should leave you alone. there are much bigger fish in the sea than my little 4 or 5 k deductions every year. And as one of our great forefathers said way back when; "It is every American's responsibility to pay as little taxes as possible." Thomas Jefferson.


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

GlenGreezy said:


> Lots of you are intellectually dishonest.


Agreed 100%!

There is a contingent of people (who knows if they actually drive Uber/Lyft at all) who seem to want to discourage others from driving by claiming it's a money losing business.

Let's look at a simple example to show how silly all these depreciation and cost arguments are:


My 2008 Prius, loaded, 75k miles was worth this when I started:
$7,757

My 2008 Prius at 95k miles is currently worth:
$7,208

Take Home Pay from Uber/Lyft since late September 2015:
$10,863

Actual Out of Pocket Costs (Tolls + Gas + Oil Changes):
$581 + $626 + $105 = $1,312

Take Home After Out of Pocket Costs:
$9,551

Average Rate Over 513 Hours of Driving
$18.61/hour (tax free, so equivalent to wage rate of $24.37)
This is Cash Flow - It's the amount of cash I am generating per hour after immediate expenses incurred that would stop if I stopped Ubering
This is the only number that matters for most people as it's how much money you can generate to save in the bank, pay bills, buy drinks, etc.

Anticipated Costs (Tires + Shocks):
$266

Take Home After Out of Pocket and Anticipated Costs:
$9,285

Take Home After Depreciation:
$8,736

Ridiculous to Include Cost of Insurance (Paid Even if Car Sits in Garage):
$600 for 6 months

Take Home After Ridiculous Costs Removed:
$8,136

Average Rate Over 513 Hours of Driving (after taking out ridiculous costs):
$15.85/hour (tax free, so equivalent to wage rate of $20.81/hour)
This number is silly for a person driving Uber with a car they would own anyway
However, it doesn't matter because it's still a decent number and it's far from the "can't earn minimum wage" claims

As I've said before, anyone who can't make money at this is just poor at cost management. Anyone claiming money can't be made is either also poor at cost management or they have a motive to stop Uber drivers (e.g. greedy Uber drivers who want to keep it all for themselves, taxi drivers, limo drivers, etc).

If you aren't making money at Uber you should examine your cost structure. If you can't change it to make it work then stop driving. If you can change it, then do (but don't invest much to do so).


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

Aw Jeez said:


> That's just stupid. Did you in fact graduate from high school? Why would you include *any* of those costs into the operating cost of the vehicle itself? A garage rented specifically for your vehicle absolutely would be figured into its operating cost. There are certain specific costs associated with operating your vehicle: registration/insurance, fees, fuel/oil, tires, and unscheduled maintenance.
> 
> You guys delude yourselves into thinking that you can break out your Uber costs and ignore the other costs associated with operating the car as if they don't exist. Sooooo...say the air conditioner goes out or you need a transmission rebuilt and it costs you $1,500 because it's a non-warranty item. Are you going to say, "Well I own the car anyway...so let's just put that expense over in the "Personal Use" column and not count it against my Uber operating cost."
> 
> Like I say, that's dishonest. But hey, whatever makes you happy.


Hey Aw Jeez - Why don't you come over for a BBQ tonight? We can go down to the bank and withdraw $9,551 in one dollar bills and cook some nice burgers over those bundles. I might as well burn it because it's not real, according to your superior intellect and great attitude.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

More creative numbers in this thread than Congress...


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> More creative numbers in this thread than Congress...


You wanna come to the BBQ too then?

You guys claiming you're losing money are either bluffing or you're just not good at managing expenses. I don't think anyone is stupid or an idiot... but you've got to own the fact that you can't make money at this even though others can.


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## UberBlackDriverLA (Aug 21, 2014)

Undermensch said:


> Agreed 100%!
> 
> There is a contingent of people (who knows if they actually drive Uber/Lyft at all) who seem to want to discourage others from driving by claiming it's a money losing business.
> 
> ...


20000 / 513 = 39 miles driven per hour?


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## UberBlackDriverLA (Aug 21, 2014)

Undermensch said:


> Agreed 100%!
> 
> There is a contingent of people (who knows if they actually drive Uber/Lyft at all) who seem to want to discourage others from driving by claiming it's a money losing business.
> 
> ...


Also, I'm impressed that your 08 Prius gets 55 mpg overall.


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## JD1 (Jun 27, 2015)

_but you've got to own the fact that you can't make money at this even though others can._

You've obviously figured out Uber's new math while the rest of us plebians can't, so go on ahead then and make that money with Uber. It is obviously a great source of pride for you. Congrats to you on your new found riches and your realization of the American Dream.


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## UberBlackDriverLA (Aug 21, 2014)

Undermensch said:


> Agreed 100%!
> 
> There is a contingent of people (who knows if they actually drive Uber/Lyft at all) who seem to want to discourage others from driving by claiming it's a money losing business.
> 
> ...


I'm also very impressed that your Toyota is a very durable car that only the tires and shocks wear out. My American SUV has other parts that wear out. <sigh>


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> 20000 / 513 = 39 miles driven per hour?


I messed that one up. The odometer was 75k when I started and is 95k now. But the spreadsheet with my mileage totals that up to 15,671 miles driven over that period for Uber. I should have used the value of the car with 90k miles for depreciation purposes since 5k of the miles were not for Uber... but that would only have caused me to be more profitable, which no one here seems to want 

So my average miles per hour is closer to 30 miles/hour. I think that makes sense. I drive primarily at night when there is no traffic and I have easy access to a freeway that averages 80 MPH. Most of the lights I pull up to at night will change immediately when they sense you and there are also lots of country roads with 50 MPH speed limits and only stop signs.

I can't stand driving up in Edison and New Brunswick, for example, because they have tons of lights that don't change quickly even when there is no traffic and they have lots of 25 MPH streets. I like to move!


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

JD1 said:


> _but you've got to own the fact that you can't make money at this even though others can._
> 
> You've obviously figured out Uber's new math while the rest of us plebians can't, so go on ahead then and make that money with Uber. It is obviously a great source of pride for you. Congrats to you on your new found riches and your realization of the American Dream.


Hey, I'm just fighting fire with fire. If anyone on this forum says they make money they get shouted down and called idiots, etc. Well, I'm not going to stand for it. I'm making money and I'll continue to point that out. It is possible to make money and I hope that anyone who continues to drive figures out how to do it.


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Also, I'm impressed that your 08 Prius gets 55 mpg overall.


It doesn't. It gets 42 MPG on average. It does better in the spring/summer/fall and does managed to hit 48-50 most of that time but I use 42 MPG for calculating projected fuel costs since it's the lowest mileage that I get during the winter over the course of a tank.


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## JD1 (Jun 27, 2015)

Undermensch said:


> I'm making money and I'll continue to point that out. It is possible to make money and I hope that anyone who continues to drive figures out how to do it.


If it works for you up there in the Garden State, I say Uber on. And you can point out whatever you want, but don't be surprised by the blow back from capable people who have had a vastly different experience.

I'm 48 years old and did not recently fall off the turnip truck. From my perspective, after Ubering 30 hours a week for several months, this business is definitely not worth the investment in money, time, and labor. Too much risk, too little reward.


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## Dammit Mazzacane (Dec 31, 2015)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-own-a-car-in-2014/
Adjust up for mileage, as this assumes running 15k/year:

*Small sedan*
Typical model: Chevrolet Cruze, Ford Focus or Honda Civic 
Cost per mile for gas, maintenance and tires: 16.3 cents 
Total cost per year (assuming 15,000 miles driven a year): $6,957

*Medium sedan*
Typical model: Ford Fusion, Honda Accord or Toyota Camry 
Cost per mile for gas, maintenance and tires: 19.1 cents 
Total cost per year (assuming 15,000 miles driven a year): $8,839

*Large sedan*

Typical model: Chrysler 300, Ford Taurus or Nissan Maxima 
Cost per mile for gas, maintenance and tires: 21.7 cents 
Total cost per year (assuming 15,000 miles driven a year): $10,831

*SUV*
Typical model: Ford Explorer, Jeep Grand Cherokee or Nissan Pathfinder 
Cost per mile for gas, maintenance and tires: 23.8 cents 
Total cost per year (assuming 15,000 miles driven a year): $11,039

*Minivan*
Typical model: Dodge Grand Caravan, Honda Odyssey or Kia Sedona 
Cost per mile for gas, maintenance and tires: 21.4 cents 
Total cost per year (assuming 15,000 miles driven a year): $9,753


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## Dammit Mazzacane (Dec 31, 2015)

gman said:


> $.28/mile per the attached. Depreciation added as an annual one time cost.


What's that app ?


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## flinchy (Feb 13, 2016)

Roughly 25c (AUD) per mile. .19 usd

13.6c per kilometer in fuel, 1.9 In servicing (diy and staff discounts)

Cheap ^_^


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## IUberGR (Jan 2, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> Some drivers like to tell others the 54c a mile you are allowed to deduct in 2016 (standard mileage deduction) is an accurate reflection of actual costs.
> 
> Oddly, these drivers then follow up with actual per mile costs just a fraction of the 54c.
> 
> ...


My costs match yours. About $.10 per for gas and maintenance (at $2.00 gas) and about $.08 per in depreciation on a six year old Honda.


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## Tim In Cleveland (Jul 28, 2014)

This is such a full of shit thread. Have people GUESS their actual costs and ignore depreciation and the cost to replace the vehicle when it is no longer suitable? Ignore the most researched cost estimates as adopted by the IRS for your guesses that you dug out of your ass?


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Tim In Cleveland said:


> This is such a full of shit thread. Have people GUESS their actual costs and ignore depreciation and the cost to replace the vehicle when it is no longer suitable? Ignore the most researched cost estimates as adopted by the IRS for your guesses that you dug out of your ass?


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

Tim In Cleveland said:


> This is such a full of shit thread. Have people GUESS their actual costs and ignore depreciation and the cost to replace the vehicle when it is no longer suitable? Ignore the most researched cost estimates as adopted by the IRS for your guesses that you dug out of your ass?


Too bad you don't understand business and taxes.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Undermensch said:


> Too bad you don't understand business and taxes.


And you do?
IRS lets you take a loss for a limited nuber of years until they disallow your business.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> And you do?
> IRS lets you take a loss for a limited nuber of years until they disallow your business.


I think he does. Untermensch is actually one of the few who do thorough calculations. I'm glad to see more and more people calculate their costs realistically. We have to remember that a 10 y/o Corolla or a Prius cost way less than what you and I drive. For my daily use (and for taxes) I use the IRS allowance but to be honest, I would not be able to reach up to that number if I did a detailed analysis of my true costs.

Unfortunately I will not be able to take a loss for my ubering. After deducting everything I still show a profit of about 40c per rolling mile. I only have vehicle and uber fee deductions. The mints run me about 99c a year and the bottled water cost is currently about 0c a year. I already have chargers and I can't deduct for a home office. 

EDIT: I forgot the tips. I will have to pay tax on my tips too. I don't have perfect bookkeeping on that so I will disclose a reasonable amount. My credit card tips I have perfect records of.


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## Tim In Cleveland (Jul 28, 2014)

Undermensch said:


> Too bad you don't understand business and taxes.





Stygge said:


> I think he does. Untermensch is actually one of the few who do thorough calculations. I'm glad to see more and more people calculate their costs realistically. We have to remember that a 10 y/o Corolla or a Prius cost way less than what you and I drive. For my daily use (and for taxes) I use the IRS allowance but to be honest, I would not be able to reach up to that number if I did a detailed analysis of my true costs.
> 
> Unfortunately I will not be able to take a loss for my ubering. After deducting everything I still show a profit of about 40c per rolling mile. I only have vehicle expenses. The mints run me about 99c a year and the bottled water cost is currently about 0c a year. I already have chargers and I can't deduct for a home office.


You are both shills and I have seen ridiculous posts from you such as "I don't mind driving far to pick up pax. I'm just glad to work". Shut up! 
"I will not be able to take a loss for my Ubering"? Hey dumbass, just track miles from the moment you sign on until you get back to your driveway at night. You can skip the brief periods when you go offline for lunch but in the end, if you're not at a loss, you have no business doing your own taxes. Deduct cell phone expenses, home office, internet access (required for your job), satellite radio and video services if you play them for customers and on and on and on.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

I make about$1 per driven mile door to door and I read the rules for deducting a home office and I don't qualify. If I would take a portion of cell phone, internet, etc I could possibly deduct a couple of hundred per year but that would only be a tiny fraction of my tax liability and increase the risk of an audit. I also would not feel good about it as I have those expenses regardless of if I uber or not. Regardless, I still show about 40c profit per rolling mile.

And you have never hear me say I take far away pick ups.

It would help anyone who wants to discourage people to drive for uber if they had a little nicer tone instead of being insulting.


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## Undermensch (Oct 21, 2015)

Tim In Cleveland said:


> You are both shills and I have seen ridiculous posts from you such as "I don't mind driving far to pick up pax. I'm just glad to work". Shut up!
> "I will not be able to take a loss for my Ubering"? Hey dumbass, just track miles from the moment you sign on until you get back to your driveway at night. You can skip the brief periods when you go offline for lunch but in the end, if you're not at a loss, you have no business doing your own taxes. Deduct cell phone expenses, home office, internet access (required for your job), satellite radio and video services if you play them for customers and on and on and on.


Yeah. Let's see. I have fully disclosed my earnings spreadsheets. Any issues with them, report the specific errors you see. If it's not a regurgitation of points I've already address then I'll look into it and explain the rationale or fix the error.

Notice that the people claiming others are losing money are the only people resorting to schoolyard insults and bullying... They don't have facts or understanding to back up their position so they resort to bluster.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Tim In Cleveland said:


> You are both shills and I have seen ridiculous posts from you such as "I don't mind driving far to pick up pax. I'm just glad to work". Shut up!
> "I will not be able to take a loss for my Ubering"? Hey dumbass, just track miles from the moment you sign on until you get back to your driveway at night. You can skip the brief periods when you go offline for lunch but in the end, if you're not at a loss, you have no business doing your own taxes. Deduct cell phone expenses, home office, internet access (required for your job), satellite radio and video services if you play them for customers and on and on and on.


+1000!
I nickel and dime the IRS to death.
Turbotax Home and Business, worth the extra $40.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

tohunt4me said:


> You do paperwork on more than 4 or 5 cars in a year, then the state wants you to get a Dealers License.
> They DO notice when you turn them over instead of keeping them.
> You can do that with some cars if you are carefull.


The guy who posted about doing this said he is an independent used car dealer in Tx. Can one assume he has a license?


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> Turbotax Home and Business, worth the extra $40.


For me it's at least $20 extra from what I usually use and that will naturally be deducted!


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Undermensch said:


> Have you had them change your rate when you told them you drove more or less miles? For me it never made a difference so I stopped worrying about it. What has been your experience?


AAA tracks my mileage on each of my three cars each year, and my premium is in part based on those miles.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

When I read the title to this thread it didn't indicate that the OP was speaking only about costs associated with driving for Uber, which everyone else apparently inferred. Since I don't do Uber, but rather drive my clients' cars, I can only offer the per mile figures on a couple of cars I previously owned.
I included all my out of pocket expenses (fuel, taxes, registration, maintenance, tires, repairs, etc) plus depreciation, which I was able to determine because I sold those cars myself for cash. Keep in mind that gas prices have varied over the years, and have been typically higher in CA. Both cars I purchased new, and drove for both business (with write offs) and pleasure.
2004 Prius - 70k miles, owned 2 1/2 years, 54 mpg lifetime, cost per mile was $0.21
2006 Prius - 58k miles, owned for 6 years, 54 mpg lifetime, cost per mile was $0.27

I include my insurance costs because my premium is in part based on the annual miles driven on each of my vehicles. Without my business related mileage on my primary car (2012 Plugin Prius) my premium would be noticeably lower.
The cpm on the current car is going to be higher. For one thing, it was more expensive to purchase, although it does get much better fuel economy. Another factor is that I have reduced my workload and therefore business miles.
I enjoyed the majority of the posts, but am dismayed by the need some forum members have to insult and denigrate others.
In the words of the famous (or infamous) Rodney King, "Can't we just all get along?"


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## DanTheMan (Mar 25, 2016)

uber charges 90c per mile 
we get .72 of that
according to AAA studies, the actual cost per mile for a small sedan is on average .45
so technically, yea the goal for us should be to keep that cost much smaller than average. don't throw top dollar at maintenance costs.


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## Stygge (Jan 9, 2016)

DanTheMan said:


> uber charges 90c per mile
> we get .72 of that


This varies by market and I assume is base rate. Many of us drive for much more than that since we only do surge and some guarantees. But remember most drivers drive at least twice as much as the miles with a rider in the car. So in your example it would be a loss to drive. I would say number one priority is to keep dead miles down and number two is to get a cheap reliable car.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Stygge said:


> This varies by market and I assume is base rate. Many of us drive for much more than that since we only do surge and some guarantees. But remember most drivers drive at least twice as much as the miles with a rider in the car. So in your example it would be a loss to drive. I would say number one priority is to keep dead miles down and number two is to get a cheap reliable car.


Tantemount.
Some member thought it was cool to clown on a driver who was using a former taxi to uber in a .75 market.

Genius!
Garages sell these from $200 to $600.
Almost zero depreciation. Buy crap oil and pour it in twice a week. Junk brake pads.
Used tires.
When the headgasket blows, go buy another one for $500.
Probably the only way to profit in a .75 market.


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## oobaah (Oct 6, 2015)

TwoFiddyMile said:


> And you do?
> IRS lets you take a loss for a limited nuber of years until they disallow your business.


Well....not entirely true.

Otherwise, how did Amazon operate for 20+ yrs without turning a profit...yet IRS did absolutely nothing.

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hey-look-amazon-actually-turned-profit/


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

oobaah said:


> Well....not entirely true.
> 
> Otherwise, how did Amazon operate for 20+ yrs without turning a profit...yet IRS did absolutely nothing.
> 
> http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hey-look-amazon-actually-turned-profit/


Easy.
Lawyers, guns, and money.


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## Chicago88 (Feb 7, 2016)

I can't believe some people think owning ANY 2015+ car doesn't depreciate at the very least .50+ cent per mile. I don't care if you got the car for free, the value declines every single mile you drive and when you resell the car it's value will be far far far less than the. 20 decline some of you FOOLISHLY believe. This includes all Hondas, Toyotas, etc.... And much much worse for Mercedes, etc. At best Uber X drivers should be drivng cheap cheap cheap reliable 2004-2007 high mpg cars - AT BEST! Cracked windshield, duct taped bumper blowing oil - all the better considering the pay rate.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Chicago88 said:


> I can't believe some people think owning ANY 2015+ car doesn't depreciate at the very least .50+ cent per mile. I don't care if you got the car for free, the value declines every single mile you drive and when you resell the car it's value will be far far far less than the. 20 decline some of you FOOLISHLY believe. This includes all Hondas, Toyotas, etc.... And much much worse for Mercedes, etc. At best Uber X drivers should be drivng cheap cheap cheap reliable 2004-2007 high mpg cars - AT BEST! Cracked windshield, duct taped bumper blowing oil - all the better considering the pay rate.


Im brokering a deal with Carfax to start listing Uber as a criteria on their Carfax reports.
Bye bye resale value.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

oobaah said:


> Well....not entirely true.
> 
> Otherwise, how did Amazon operate for 20+ yrs without turning a profit...yet IRS did absolutely nothing.
> 
> http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hey-look-amazon-actually-turned-profit/


I think that the profit the media talk about at Amazon (and some other companies) is after tax and allowing for growth. In other words, shareholders aren't getting any return on investment in the form of dividends. So the IRS gets its share. The profit/hobby rules are mainly for individuals, not big corporations.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

Jake1326 said:


> Question TwoFiddyMile, what is the difference between (Uber/Lyft/SideCar....) and guys/gals that pick up from hospitals (blood and skin samples) to be tested or shipped to Mayo's. True livery services? Do they fall under your so called criteria? How about the 18 year olds that work the summer picking up pizza and delivering? We have two smaller mom and pop pharmacies that deliver to nursing homes. What is the difference of the salesman who calls on businesses all day. 100% city driving? That is more stop and go than a Uber. Are they also counted in the CarFax?
> 
> Most of those examples are city driving where I only (rarely city) drive highway miles. Frankly, I would not care if CarFax lists it or not. I only buy USED vehicles already greatly depreciated and drive them into the ground. 185,000 to 275,000 miles is not uncommon. I do however have a detail shop that wet polishes out road rash (hundreds of spots) and scratches every year or when needed for 140.00 to 165.00 so the vehicle looks brand new when they are done. However, when I am done with them, they need a new transmission along with a host of other parts so it is not worth the repair and I can get more from junking them.
> 
> ...


Was (or was supposed to have been) an obvious joke, my disabled elder friend.
But, anyone who actually knows me around here knows my humor cuts deep.

Carfax has a policy of listing any commercial use of a vehicle.
I see no reason for this to be different for pizza cars, blood delivery, or TNC.

Nice try baiting me with your anti taxi bias.
Have a nice day, handicapped respected elder


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## Jim Sniffins (Mar 24, 2016)

$.70 - $.72 / mi depending on stop/go and how quickly I accelerate/brake.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Tim In Cleveland said:


> This is such a full of shit thread. Have people GUESS their actual costs and ignore depreciation and the cost to replace the vehicle when it is no longer suitable? Ignore the most researched cost estimates as adopted by the IRS for your guesses that you dug out of your ass?


You can't both depreciate (lost equity) and consider replacement costs. That would be paying for a car twice. It's lines of thoughts like this that create the misconceptions in actual costs.

The IRS deduction is based on the cost of a brand new fully financed car in its first 5 years. Why would I assume my 8 year old 90,000 mile minivan with no financing has the same cost?

And no, I'm not guessing like using the IRS deduction would be, I'm giving my actual recorded real world cost for 2015.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

DanTheMan said:


> uber charges 90c per mile
> we get .72 of that
> according to AAA studies, the actual cost per mile for a small sedan is on average .45
> so technically, yea the goal for us should be to keep that cost much smaller than average. don't throw top dollar at maintenance costs.


A brand new fully financed sedan in the first 5 years of depreciation. Read the fine print. If you fully financed a sedan, turned on the app, and drove off the car lot to your first ping, instantly losing thousands in equity, you may need to rethink your Ubering decisions.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Jim Sniffins said:


> $.70 - $.72 / mi depending on stop/go and how quickly I accelerate/brake.


Brand new mercedes driving UberBlack?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Stygge said:


> I make about$1 per driven mile door to door and I read the rules for deducting a home office and I don't qualify. If I would take a portion of cell phone, internet, etc I could possibly deduct a couple of hundred per year but that would only be a tiny fraction of my tax liability and increase the risk of an audit. I also would not feel good about it as I have those expenses regardless of if I uber or not. Regardless, I still show about 40c profit per rolling mile.
> 
> And you have never hear me say I take far away pick ups.
> 
> It would help anyone who wants to discourage people to drive for uber if they had a little nicer tone instead of being insulting.


Something I learned this tax season is if you enter a car into service and use itemised deductions rather than standard mileage, you can never go back to standard mileage on that vehicle.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Dammit Mazzacane said:


> *Minivan*
> Typical model: Dodge Grand Caravan, Honda Odyssey or Kia Sedona
> Cost per mile for gas, maintenance and tires: 21.4 cents
> Total cost per year (assuming 15,000 miles driven a year): $9,753


And there you have it. I drive a Kia Sedona, no financing, very careful about my costs, much lower gas than in the article, drive far more than 15,000 which drives down costs per mile, and pay 17 cents a mile. Nice example. It will be ignored by the 54 cents a mile cult though.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Aw Jeez said:


> That's just stupid. Did you in fact graduate from high school? Why would you include *any* of those costs into the operating cost of the vehicle itself? A garage rented specifically for your vehicle absolutely would be figured into its operating cost. There are certain specific costs associated with operating your vehicle: registration/insurance, fees, fuel/oil, tires, and unscheduled maintenance.
> 
> You guys delude yourselves into thinking that you can break out your Uber costs and ignore the other costs associated with operating the car as if they don't exist. Sooooo...say the air conditioner goes out or you need a transmission rebuilt and it costs you $1,500 because it's a non-warranty item. Are you going to say, "Well I own the car anyway...so let's just put that expense over in the "Personal Use" column and not count it against my Uber operating cost."
> 
> Like I say, that's dishonest. But hey, whatever makes you happy.


Nobody is moving Ubering costs to the personal column, you are moving personal costs to the Ubering column. If I had a $1,500 repair I would divide it between the two columns based on the respective miles.

bsliv gave the perfect litmus test for deciding if it's a cost of Ubering or not. If you stop Ubering, does the cost go away? If yes, it's a cost of Ubering, if not, it isn't.

Costs that would remain even if I don't Uber:

Clothing, washing clothes, hot water, soap, razors, car insurance, shampoo, medical insurance, property tax on vehicle, registration fees, haircuts, toothbrush and toothpaste, sunglasses, reading glasses, phone...

If any of these were costs of Ubering, they would go away when I quit. They won't.

Cost: an amount that has to be paid or spent to buy or obtain something.

If I don't have to pay for insurance to Uber because I already have it, it's not a cost of Ubering. If I have to pay for insurance or more insurance just to Uber, it is a cost of Ubering. Socks are not a cost of Ubering but I do Uber with socks on.


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## Chicago88 (Feb 7, 2016)

RamzFanz said:


> And there you have it. I drive a Kia Sedona, no financing, very careful about my costs, much lower gas than in the article, drive far more than 15,000 which drives down costs per mile, and pay 17 cents a mile. Nice example. It will be ignored by the 54 cents a mile cult though.


no one is ignoring the foolishness of your statements...we're laughing at them. good luck.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Chicago88 said:


> no one is ignoring the foolishness of your statements...we're laughing at them. good luck.


So now you are going against AAA? Brilliant.


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