# Prime Tips lower? Update- Yes, Scamazon is stealing our tips to lower their base pay to us.



## kmatt

Title says it all. Tips have been terrible lately. 11 stops = $19.50, 6 stops = $13. We used to average $5 then down to $4 and now about $2-3.50 on average. Any Prime Now drivers experiencing the same thing since we started getting paid twice a week?

Update - Here is the proof straight from the horses mouth. They won't tell us how they come up with the variable base pay as usual with zero transparency. So if my tips are high enough, they could literally pay us next to nothing now to make deliveries. Unbelievable man...


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## Ubercal

Depends on your area , my tips have been about $3 - 5 per stop on average lately.


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## Poolepit

I have noticed the same things for hot wheels blocks for certain. Did a 6 hour HW block Tuesday. Did 8 deliveries and made $21.50 in tips. Week before I did 7 in 6 hours and made $16 in tips. Was wondering if amazon was taking a cut or giving a cut to the restaurants. Just another one of the many reasons I prefer WH routes over HW.


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## GaryG83

I'm still amazed by the amount of tips you guys in America get for Prime Now deliveries. If I got £11.50 for 11 stops I'd be so happy haha. Some days are pretty good for tips, but even then I'm talking about an average of £2 a stop at the very most, 90% of the time a lot less.

Last night I had 6 stops, 3 of which were to some pretty posh houses, and my total tips for the block? £1....

The night before I had 3-4 stops, total tips? ZERO.


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## soupergloo

some days i'll make $60 in tips on one block, other days i'll make $11 .. that's how tipping is, inconsistent.

I haven't noticed a decrease since the twice a week pay structure, but I don't see why that would have anything to do with tips?


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## WMUber

The frequency of our pay is not correlated to tips received...

More likely, Amazon is getting more prime members using the service and that is bringing down the tip average.

I have doing PrimeNow since October 2016 (Los Angeles UCA3). The tip averages have not changed (except for holidays and the rain - that skews higher).

On PrimeNow - one half of the recipients tip $5.00 (or $2.50 per delivery).
Bristol Farms - $10.00
Hot Wheels - $3.00 (Skews higher if a popular sporting event is on TV - then it is larger orders and can range up to $10.00)
Sprouts - A bit of a wild card. Usually $5.00 to $10.00 with a 20% stiff rate. So I would say about $6.00 per delivery.


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## nighthawk398

GaryG83 said:


> I'm still amazed by the amount of tips you guys in America get for Prime Now deliveries. If I got £11.50 for 11 stops I'd be so happy haha. Some days are pretty good for tips, but even then I'm talking about an average of £2 a stop at the very most, 90% of the time a lot less.
> 
> Last night I had 6 stops, 3 of which were to some pretty posh houses, and my total tips for the block? £1....
> 
> The night before I had 3-4 stops, total tips? ZERO.


I think in general the United Kingdom doesn't tip well


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## Nsaudra

My tips have been down... but it cause the flex of new fresh customers, all I see lately is carloads full of fresh.


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## sofla11

nighthawk398 said:


> I think in general the United Kingdom doesn't tip well


Tipping culture seems to be different in Europe. Many tipping professions here are paid around $2/hr because tips are most of their pay. So in general people here feel more obligated to tip. In Europe most tipped employees receive a base wage that is expected to be the majority of their pay, tips are just extra.


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## UberPasco

kmatt said:


> Title says it all. Tips have been terrible lately. 11 stops = $19.50, 6 stops = $13. We used to average $5 then down to $4 and now about $2-3.50 on average. Any Prime Now drivers experiencing the same thing since we started getting paid twice a week?


YES. I know you have done this for a while as well. I had 12 WH stops last weekend = ZERO TIPS. Did 12 stops on Thurs night = $14. We'll see what my 15 stops last night pays out. 
BTW, I used the app to dispute earnings (after calling support) and they gave me an auto response. Then they gave me a "Nothing we can do" email. Subsequent emails have been ignored. 
Others here are seeing the same thing.


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## Poolepit

When I first started around October of last year I remember I would be pissed if I got less than $5/delivery for HW. Now it seems to average $2-3. Haven't been doing as many blocks as of recently the last month or two though.


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## kmatt

UberPasco said:


> YES. I know you have done this for a while as well. I had 12 WH stops last weekend = ZERO TIPS. Did 12 stops on Thurs night = $14. We'll see what my 15 stops last night pays out.
> BTW, I used the app to dispute earnings (after calling support) and they gave me an auto response. Then they gave me a "Nothing we can do" email. Subsequent emails have been ignored.
> Others here are seeing the same thing.


 No transparancy whatsoever. I've tried to ask for breakdowns in the past and they ignored my requests as usual. Every driver is experiencing the same thing. I think there is a problem with how they process the tip through Visa, Mastercard or Amex. It's like we are getting zero tips from one of those institutions.


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## UberPasco

kmatt said:


> No transparancy whatsoever. I've tried to ask for breakdowns in the past and they ignored my requests as usual. Every driver is experiencing the same thing. I think there is a problem with how they process the tip through Visa, Mastercard or Amex. It's like we are getting zero tips from one of those institutions.


OK, for 3 blocks on Sat: 4 stops/$23 tips, 1 stop /$0, 10 stops / $39.


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## Poolepit

Just talked to another guy tonight who has been working out of our warehouse about as long as me. I wasn't sure if it was just hotwheels blocks or warehouse block tips that have decreased as of recently and he said it m has been both. Now I feel fairly certain that something is up. Not sure what exactly but something isn't right imo.


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## sonicfruits

I have noticed a down turn in Hot Wheel tips for sure..Did have one girl tell me she ordered 3 drinks(I hate delivering those fountain drinks..always an adventure!!) to get up to the minimum order amount, was my only delivery that block and got $2 but maybe understandable if she was forced to order things she did not want? .The other is so up and down hard to detect a trend there..I have wondered if people tip higher when they are getting promos now that it is a regular thing maybe tipping less?



Nsaudra said:


> My tips have been down... but it cause the flex of new fresh customers, all I see lately is carloads full of fresh.


 that too def has something to do with it, But I see a huge increase in fresh orders as that catches on...I have also noticed when shopping myself things are sometimes much cheaper in fresh than regular Amazon


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## DriverX

GAS PRICES, that's what's up. 

AS they rise people tip less, plus tipping in general is on the way out. You can't depend on people's generosity to make a living. You set a price and provide the service/product. 

I do logistics only and I'm ok with the earnings. I ususally get 3 hour blocks. How does Prime work, do you usually get 3 hour or 1 hour blocks? How many miles do you drive on average for a 1 hour or 3 hour block? are you forced to work the entire shift? When we finish our route we are done regardless of how long it took.


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## Poolepit

It's certainly not due to people not tipping as much anymore. It's either a processing issue or something else going on. Not sure exactly what it is and don't think amazon is stealing the tips but definitely think it is some sort of bug or glitch if they didn't purposely change the way they alot the tips.

Warehouse blocks are either 1 or 2 hour blocks unless you received scheduled blocks. Hot wheels can be 1, 2 or 3 hour blocks unless you received scheduled blocks. Scheduled blocks can be any amount of time it seems.


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## sonicfruits

DriverX said:


> GAS PRICES, that's what's up.
> 
> AS they rise people tip less, plus tipping in general is on the way out. You can't depend on people's generosity to make a living. You set a price and provide the service/product.
> 
> I do logistics only and I'm ok with the earnings. I ususally get 3 hour blocks. How does Prime work, do you usually get 3 hour or 1 hour blocks? How many miles do you drive on average for a 1 hour or 3 hour block? are you forced to work the entire shift? When we finish our route we are done regardless of how long it took.


Blocks can vary but getting blocks takes up a lot of time. If you figure in the time spent trying to get a block I think Logistics actually pays more per hour. Also things seemed to have changed at Bolton, it is taking much longer to start the route and as a result takes longer to finish the route


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## CatchyMusicLover

Not everyone spends that long getting blocks. I for one spend under a minute getting my first block, and the second one comes in the middle of working the first one.


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## flexian

sounds like they really like u!


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## Basmati

Tips for Prime Now have definitely gone down for me. It seems I'm only getting between $4 to $10 per two hour block now. Problem is that with all the tolls and mileage / gas expenses with Prime Now it really starts not to be worth it if tips are under $10 a block.
With Restaurants people tend to be really cheap with many not tipping at all and others tipping $1 or $2 with the occasional $5 tip. A typical two hour restaurant block usually yields between $0 to $4 in tips now. However with restaurants there is rarely tolls and significantly less miles. I used to hate restaurants because tips were so bad but with current state of warehouse tips I'd much rather be doing the restaurant blocks. After expenses I'm making more with restaurants now.


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## DriverX

Poolepit said:


> Warehouse blocks are either 1 or 2 hour blocks unless you received scheduled blocks. Hot wheels can be 1, 2 or 3 hour blocks unless you received scheduled blocks. Scheduled blocks can be any amount of time it seems.


How many miles do you drive on a 1 hour block? can you stack several 1 hour blocks frequently? I just dont see how it makes sense to do a 1 hour block which would effectively blow 2 hours of your day, and only make a guarantee of $18. It's just not enough to start my car.



CatchyMusicLover said:


> Not everyone spends that long getting blocks. I for one spend under a minute getting my first block, and the second one comes in the middle of working the first one.


Well you can expect that to change. LOL they will add more drivers and you will be fishing like the rest of us.


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## Poolepit

DriverX said:


> How many miles do you drive on a 1 hour block? can you stack several 1 hour blocks frequently? I just dont see how it makes sense to do a 1 hour block which would effectively blow 2 hours of your day, and only make a guarantee of $18. It's just not enough to start my car.
> 
> Well you can expect that to change. LOL they will add more drivers and you will be fishing like the rest of us.


Never done a 1 hour block and don't think I ever would. I average about $1/mile net. When I first started I used to be able to string together 8 hours a day Monday through Friday no problem. This was before separate hot wheels blocks.


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## UberPasco

Poolepit said:


> Never done a 1 hour block and don't think I ever would. I average about $1/mile net. When I first started I used to be able to string together 8 hours a day Monday through Friday no problem. This was before separate hot wheels blocks.


Generally, one hr blocks are either a starting point or a bridge to another block. Most of the time is a leap of faith in your ability to string together blocks.


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## Keyser Söze

It's not a processing problem with tips or customers suddenly getting cheap. For Prime Now, Amazon has, without notification to drivers, started what they call a "variable pay structure", meaning they now take what you make in tips and apply that as PART of your $18-25/hr pay instead of on TOP of it. 

I figured they would pull an Uber sooner or later but this is pretty shady. 

I expect nobody will want to do Prime Now, now since you have to put so many more miles on your car with basically no incentive. The way I see it, Hot Wheels is probably the best service to do since the $ will now be about the same but you drive a fraction of the miles.


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## WMUber

Before everyone thinks Amazon will use tips to supplement hourly pay, read up on your state's "Tip Credit" laws. Only about 35 states allow a business to use "Tip Credit" to lower base hourly pay (usually below minimum wage).

This practice is not allowed in California.

As Amazon Prime becomes as ubiquitous as Costco membership, more less affluent people will join. This means average tip value will drop. Here are some examples.

Hot Wheels has a $20.00 minimum. You just ordered your favorite $15.00 meal, plus a $2.00 overpriced drink, plus tax, and you still had to pay more to come to $20.00. How much are you going to tip a driver? Or you are a college student with limited discretionary income; how much are you going to tip?

Same thing with grocery stores. You deliver $100.00 plus from Bristol Farms (high end) your going to get $10.00 tip. You deliver Sprouts (Millennial Whole Foods) and you will be lucky to get $5.00.

Now look at warehouse delivery. Unless you truly needed it within two hours, you may not think the driver did anything special. My experience is that only half of the people tip $5.00 (more during the holidays). As more clients use Prime, they may group drivers in with UPS, FedEx, and USPS. Only tip during the holidays.

Amazon is not skimming tips. It is the customer mix that is changing. Get used to it, tips will slowly average down.


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## kmatt

Those laws only apply to employees. We are contractors and not employees.



WMUber said:


> Before everyone thinks Amazon will use tips to supplement hourly pay, read up on your state's "Tip Credit" laws. Only about 35 states allow a business to use "Tip Credit" to lower base hourly pay (usually below minimum wage).
> 
> This practice is not allowed in California.
> 
> As Amazon Prime becomes as ubiquitous as Costco membership, more less affluent people will join. This means average tip value will drop. Here are some examples.
> 
> Hot Wheels has a $20.00 minimum. You just ordered your favorite $15.00 meal, plus a $2.00 overpriced drink, plus tax, and you still had to pay more to come to $20.00. How much are you going to tip a driver? Or you are a college student with limited discretionary income; how much are you going to tip?
> 
> Same thing with grocery stores. You deliver $100.00 plus from Bristol Farms (high end) your going to get $10.00 tip. You deliver Sprouts (Millennial Whole Foods) and you will be lucky to get $5.00.
> 
> Now look at warehouse delivery. Unless you truly needed it within two hours, you may not think the driver did anything special. My experience is that only half of the people tip $5.00 (more during the holidays). As more clients use Prime, they may group drivers in with UPS, FedEx, and USPS. Only tip during the holidays.
> 
> Amazon is not skimming tips. It is the customer mix that is changing. Get used to it, tips will slowly average down.


We are still getting 100% tips. The reduction in pay comes from Amazon reducing their base bay ($18hr). If our tips are high enough, Amazon is only going to chip in a few dollars an hour out of their own pocket now to meat the advertised ($18-25/hr). They are trying to treat us like we are waiters and get a base bay of $2-3 an hour. Waiters don't have the type of expenses we have. I thought they might lower our base one day but do it like this? Pure Evil man.


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## Keyser Söze

WMUber said:


> Before everyone thinks Amazon will use tips to supplement hourly pay, read up on your state's "Tip Credit" laws. Only about 35 states allow a business to use "Tip Credit" to lower base hourly pay (usually below minimum wage).
> 
> This practice is not allowed in California.
> 
> As Amazon Prime becomes as ubiquitous as Costco membership, more less affluent people will join. This means average tip value will drop. Here are some examples.
> 
> Hot Wheels has a $20.00 minimum. You just ordered your favorite $15.00 meal, plus a $2.00 overpriced drink, plus tax, and you still had to pay more to come to $20.00. How much are you going to tip a driver? Or you are a college student with limited discretionary income; how much are you going to tip?
> 
> Same thing with grocery stores. You deliver $100.00 plus from Bristol Farms (high end) your going to get $10.00 tip. You deliver Sprouts (Millennial Whole Foods) and you will be lucky to get $5.00.
> 
> Now look at warehouse delivery. Unless you truly needed it within two hours, you may not think the driver did anything special. My experience is that only half of the people tip $5.00 (more during the holidays). As more clients use Prime, they may group drivers in with UPS, FedEx, and USPS. Only tip during the holidays.
> 
> Amazon is not skimming tips. It is the customer mix that is changing. Get used to it, tips will slowly average down.


"Only" 35 states, lol.

Straight from the horses mouth, they have changed the pay to a "variable" rate. See the Amazon Flex Dallas drivers forum on Facebook. A woman posted a screen capture of her emails to and from Amazon rep.


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## kmatt

There is really no incentive to take a lot deliveries now. That's a damn shame. Drivers will fight over who is the one hour driver now, lol.


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## WMUber

kmatt said:


> Those laws only apply to employees. We are contractors and not employees.
> 
> We are still getting 100% tips. The reduction in pay comes from Amazon reducing their base bay ($18hr). If our tips are high enough, Amazon is only going to chip in a few dollars an hour out of their own pocket now to meat the advertised ($18-25/hr). They are trying to treat us like we are waiters and get a base bay of $2-3 an hour. Waiters don't have the type of expenses we have. I thought they might lower our base one day but do it like this? Pure Evil man.


I suggest you reread my post... Two points:

1) People have emailed amazon for clarification. Amazon emailed back that "Variable Pricing" only refers to when they need to increase pay to attract more drivers (Amazon's version of Surge Pricing) - See below.

2) My first sentence contains the statement "read up on your state's "Tip Credit" laws".


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## Keyser Söze

The other problem with all of this is they won't tell you anything specific...so it's impossible to know when you will see $25/hr or $18. My guess is vast majority of the time it's going to be closer to $18. One thing is certain, you'll never see more than $25/hr again. Pretty much without fail I made 28-30/hr. Sometimes more.

From a couple other people who did only a 2 hour block, both of them made only a few cents over $36.



kmatt said:


> There is really no incentive to take a lot deliveries now. That's a damn shame. Drivers will fight over who is the one hour driver now, lol.


Exactly. If I'm only getting 18 or 20/hr no matter what, I'd rather just do hot wheels. Mileage is a fraction of what it is for Prime Now where I am.


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## flexian

Keyser Söze said:


> The other problem with all of this is they won't tell you anything specific...so it's impossible to know when you will see $25/hr or $18. My guess is vast majority of the time it's going to be closer to $18.


its because of the app update from a few months back

before, it was possible - if u were mildly clever - to break it down and see individual tips (and for hotwheels u could see it nearly in real time in the app)

now it falls under the amorphous "Fare Adjustment"

they also recently tried to restructure the blocks as "bids" and "offers" but thats not right, bc u can't change ur bid...lol


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## observer

WMUber said:


> I suggest you reread my post... Two points:
> 
> 1) People have emailed amazon for clarification. Amazon emailed back that "Variable Pricing" only refers to when they need to increase pay to attract more drivers (Amazon's version of Surge Pricing) - See below.
> 
> 2) My first sentence contains the statement "read up on your state's "Tip Credit" laws".


Depends on how you read the second SS, to me it reads 100% of the tip is included in the 18-25 per hour pay.

It should read, drivers get 18-25 dllrs per hour PLUS 100% of tips.

It's just Ubertalk all over again.

Another lawsuit waiting to happen.


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## WMUber

Before you accuse Amazon of skimming, learn the patterns of your routes. I had a Hot Wheels delivery where the customer ordered a hamburger. Yes, he paid $20.00 to satisfy his craving for a local pub's hamburger. I knew I was not getting a tip from him. The same block I had two deliveries to college students. I did three deliveries in that block and only received $4.00 in tips. This is inline with what I expected.

Let's face it, when 2-Hour delivery was new, customers were amazed. The parent that needed diapers at 10:00 pm, was very grateful that it happened gladly tipped $10.00. Prime Now is common, almost expected. That same parent who was grateful for the 10:00 pm diaper delivery now is expecting that level of service. He now only tips $2.00 to $5.00 per order.

No, Amazon is not skimming tips. It's the slow lowering of the bar of Prime Now customers that is lowering tip averages.


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## observer

WMUber said:


> Before you accuse Amazon of skimming, learn the patterns of your routes. I had a Hot Wheels delivery where the customer ordered a hamburger. Yes, he paid $20.00 to satisfy his craving for a local pub's hamburger. I knew I was not getting a tip from him. The same block I had two deliveries to college students. I did three deliveries in that block and only received $4.00 in tips. This is inline with what I expected.
> 
> Let's face it, when 2-Hour delivery was new, customers were amazed. The parent that needed diapers at 10:00 pm, was very grateful that it happened gladly tipped $10.00. Prime Now is common, almost expected. That same parent who was grateful for the 10:00 pm diaper delivery now is expecting that level of service. He now only tips $2.00 to $5.00 per order.
> 
> No, Amazon is not skimming tips. It's the slow lowering of the bar of Prime Now customers that is lowering tip averages.


I agree, as people use the service more, they will tip less.

It's like eating at fast food during the week or dining out on a weekend night .

One is a necessity the other is a treat.


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## flexian

there are 65 million Prime members in the United States, if Prime Now is just a bunch of repeat customers no longer impressed by the novelty of the service, it makes me think Prime Now isn't advertising enough

or maybe customer service has undergone a very steep decline since it 1st started.....dunno.....could be a combination of factors


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## Shangsta

DriverX said:


> AS they rise people tip less, plus tipping in general is on the way out.


I would advise you not make such assertions on a platform you don't drive or understand.

Just because Uber has killed tips for ride hail doesn't mean tips are on their way out. I still tip my pizza guy, if an amazon person brought me a 1 hour delivery, I am darn well going to make sure he gets a respectable tip.


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## Poolepit

WMUber said:


> Before you accuse Amazon of skimming, learn the patterns of your routes. I had a Hot Wheels delivery where the customer ordered a hamburger. Yes, he paid $20.00 to satisfy his craving for a local pub's hamburger. I knew I was not getting a tip from him. The same block I had two deliveries to college students. I did three deliveries in that block and only received $4.00 in tips. This is inline with what I expected.
> 
> Let's face it, when 2-Hour delivery was new, customers were amazed. The parent that needed diapers at 10:00 pm, was very grateful that it happened gladly tipped $10.00. Prime Now is common, almost expected. That same parent who was grateful for the 10:00 pm diaper delivery now is expecting that level of service. He now only tips $2.00 to $5.00 per order.
> 
> No, Amazon is not skimming tips. It's the slow lowering of the bar of Prime Now customers that is lowering tip averages.


How long have you been driving prime now?


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## WMUber

Poolepit said:


> How long have you been driving prime now?


October 2016


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## UberPasco

Some people are just idiots. 
The pay is $18 per hr. Tips are paid on top of that, and no, they aren't skimming. Claims by those who have reading comprehension issues do not change facts. 
I think WMUber pretty much has it right. The same thing happened with Lyft. It used to be the "cool people" used Lyft. Then they cut prices, gave ride credits and attracted the cheapest of the cheap. Tips went from the majority of rides down to Uber levels very quickly.
I think we are seeing the effects of a lot of "$10/$20 off your first order" offers. Delivering to a lot of 'less affluent' households has increased tremendously over the past month or so. And tips have decreased proportionally.


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## flexian

we'll find out tomorrow


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## WMUber

UberPasco said:


> Some people are just idiots.
> The pay is $18 per hr. Tips are paid on top of that, and no, they aren't skimming. Claims by those who have reading comprehension issues do not change facts.
> I think WMUber pretty much has it right. The same thing happened with Lyft. It used to be the "cool people" used Lyft. Then they cut prices, gave ride credits and attracted the cheapest of the cheap. Tips went from the majority of rides down to Uber levels very quickly.
> I think we are seeing the effects of a lot of "$10/$20 off your first order" offers. Delivering to a lot of 'less affluent' households has increased tremendously over the past month or so. And tips have decreased proportionally.


Thank you!

As I said, it doesn't take long to notice patterns. Speaking from UCA3, take groceries. Sprouts averages $6.00 per order. If you do four deliveries in a block, expect 1 no tip, 1 $10.00 and two $5.00 tips ($20.00 total). Now, if there are no 3+bag orders, that $10.00 become $5.00, for $15.00 total. If you do an entire day at Sprouts, you will have about 12 deliveries and about $70.00 in tips. Bristol Farms tends to be $10.00 per order. Now if you are delivering to a party (soda, chips, water, etc.), expect the stoned/drunk partiers to tip generously. Now as Amazon adds more Prime Members, expect that Sprouts average to drop to $4.00 per order.


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## soupergloo

I also don't think Amazon is stealing tips .. I think it's pretty great of them to automatically include the $5+ as a recommended tip into all orders because without that, I don't think we'd see anything.

At UCA1, these people order Prime Now daily and sometimes more than once a day (i've definitely delivered to the same person more than once a day), and I doubt those people tip every single time they order.


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## kmatt

Umm, did you not read the Amazon email about the part about fixed based earnings (old way) vs variable based earnings (new way)?


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## WMUber

kmatt said:


> Umm, did you not read the Amazon email about the part about fixed based earnings (old way) vs variable based earnings (new way)?


Or have you seen this email clarifying it:


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## kmatt

True, their earnings commitment has always been $18-25/hr. I have always grossed about $32/hr in my market with their fixed rate system of $18/hr plus tips. They are making it so that it is still in that range of $18-25 and not much more by reducing their fixed amount of $18 to a variable system (meaning less or more). Do you really think they are going to come out with a new variable pay structure and pay us the same or more most of the time? Not gonna happen. They won't explain it in detail but it's pretty easy to figure out what they are doing. I guess one wouldn't notice it if their market pays shitty tips to begin with.



WMUber said:


> Or have you seen this email clarifying it:


This email has much more detail for you.


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## WMUber

kmatt said:


> True, their earnings commitment has always been $18-25/hr. I have always grossed about $32/hr in my market with their fixed rate system of $18/hr plus tips. They are making it so that it is still in that range of $18-25 and not much more by reducing their fixed amount of $18 to a variable system (meaning less or more). Do you really think they are going to come out with a new variable pay structure and pay us the same or more most of the time? Not gonna happen. They won't explain it in detail but it's pretty easy to figure out what they are doing. I guess one wouldn't notice it if their market pays shitty tips to begin with.
> 
> This email has much more detail for you.


Two things:

1) The email I posted was in response to the email you and many other drivers are posting. (In other words, it came after your email to clarify your email.)
2) Yes, I do believe Amazon will use a variable pay structure to pay us more. Why? Because they already have. They pay increased rate when drivers will not work restaurant blocks or in rainy/snowy weather.

What I do believe is there is a subset of drivers with an External Locus of Control. The demographics of their routes are changing and with one badly worded email from Amazon, they believe the lowering in tips is because Amazon is using them as a "Tip Credit" against hourly pay.

When I deliver Restaurants or Prime Now, I can objectively looks at what, where, and who I am delivering to; and make a forecast that is about 90% accurate. It doesn't take a computer to do that modelling. Yes, some days suck; and then others are great. I can go back to when I started and except for the Holidays, my tips have remained constant.


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## flexian

it isnt clear to me what they mean by "supplemental earnings required to meet our commitment that delivery partners earn $18-$25 per hour."

so are there instances in which they screwed up, didn't give drivers the baseline $18 per hour, and then had to go back and adjust the earnings somehow - upwards, in a supplemental way - to get up to $18/hr?


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## kmatt

flexian said:


> it isnt clear to me what they mean by "supplemental earnings required to meet our commitment that delivery partners earn $18-$25 per hour."
> 
> so are there instances in which they screwed up, didn't give drivers the baseline $18 per hour, and then had to go back and adjust the earnings somehow - upwards, in a supplemental way - to get up to $18/hr?


That means I didn't earn enough tips to get to $18/hr so Amazon will make up the difference. They are no longer paying us $18/hr PLUS tips now. They will only make up the difference when they have to.



WMUber said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1) The email I posted was in response to the email you and many other drivers are posting. (In other words, it came after your email to clarify your email.)
> 2) Yes, I do believe Amazon will use a variable pay structure to pay us more. Why? Because they already have. They pay increased rate when drivers will not work restaurant blocks or in rainy/snowy weather.
> 
> What I do believe is there is a subset of drivers with an External Locus of Control. The demographics of their routes are changing and with one badly worded email from Amazon, they believe the lowering in tips is because Amazon is using them as a "Tip Credit" against hourly pay.
> 
> When I deliver Restaurants or Prime Now, I can objectively looks at what, where, and who I am delivering to; and make a forecast that is about 90% accurate. It doesn't take a computer to do that modelling. Yes, some days suck; and then others are great. I can go back to when I started and except for the Holidays, my tips have remained constant.


Look. We only have Prime Now in my market and every driver notices the reduction in total pay the last month or so. They are treating/paying us like we are waiters who get the bulk of our pay from tips. The big difference is waiters don't have the massive expenses of driving automobiles. I don't know how else to explain it.


----------



## Poolepit

The people defending amazon over the noticeable difference in pay all of a sudden is mind blowing. There are drivers nationwide and almost every one of us in my market that have all of a sudden over the last month or two noticed a sizable difference in overall earnings (almost $10/hour sometimes). I do not think this is due to the market or people not tipping all of sudden. It is just way too much of a consistent sizable difference and seems to have started around the time they started changing the way our earnings are displayed in the app.


----------



## observer

If Amazon isn't splitting out the tips, how are drivers supposed to pay taxes on tip income? Drivers are paying taxes on tips, right.....

Seems to me this will eventually catch up to both drivers and Amazon.


----------



## UberPasco

(WMUber It is not worth wasting your breath on this one. The misplaced outrage is strong with the dull.)
I suggest that everyone write Amazon and demand better treatment! And tell them you *refuse* to work until they do what you want. Threaten to sue for unfair labor practices! Maybe even ask to allow the "GPS not working" to go back to the way it was so you don't actually be there on time.


----------



## Bygosh

Damn people are dumb, no wonder we have a bafoon for a president.

A) Amazon changed the order screen which makes it much easier to change the tip amount. This is the main reason for the decline in tips.

B) As pointed out when a market is new to Prime Now it will have higher tips. This will slowly degrade as people use the service more then once and as it spreads to less affluent areas.


----------



## flexian

the order screen looks about the same to me

but higher-value totals now generate higher "recommended tip" amounts (no matter how big or small the item or items physically) - i don't know if it was always like that

but that just encourages people to play with the tip amount

so maybe that's it


----------



## joegrind

flexian said:


> the order screen looks about the same to me
> 
> but higher-value totals now generate higher "recommended tip" amounts (no matter how big or small the item or items physically) - i don't know if it was always like that
> 
> but that just encourages people to play with the tip amount
> 
> so maybe that's it


I do believe it was always like that. 
I remember ordering a Nest Cam (< 1 pound) from Prime Now over Christmas and the recommended tip was $13... 10% of the $130 camera.


----------



## flexian

joegrind said:


> I do believe it was always like that.
> I remember ordering a Nest Cam (< 1 pound) from Prime Now over Christmas and the recommended tip was $13... 10% of the $130 camera.


ok, then thats not it then

i have an idea of what they might be up to (i have noticed changes in my earnings too) but i was prepared to attribute it to something else......

then this thread came along, only time will tell who is right and who is wrong bc Flex is undergoing some type of upheaval......

maybe some drivers' bank accounts may even benefit from this new way.......

hanging in there w/this gig long enough to find out - now that will be the real challenge


----------



## blackice

Something strange is definitely going on. Had a block where I did 0 deliveries, yet somehow got $8 in tips?


----------



## nighthawk398

observer said:


> If Amazon isn't splitting out the tips, how are drivers supposed to pay taxes on tip income? Drivers are paying taxes on tips, right.....
> 
> Seems to me this will eventually catch up to both drivers and Amazon.


What are you talking about? Taxes are not taken out of any income Amazon pays us, we just report it all as income, theres no need to separate out tips


----------



## observer

nighthawk398 said:


> What are you talking about? Taxes are not taken out of any income Amazon pays us, we just report it all as income, theres no need to separate out tips


I was wondering when someone would catch my mistake.

I thought about it after I posted and realized it would all be income to driver.

Amazon should still split out tips to ease drivers concerns.


----------



## UberPasco

observer said:


> Amazon should still split out tips to ease drivers concerns.


I'd like it to return back, but the $68 in tips for my last 4 hrs helped to ease my concerns a bit.


----------



## flexian

most likely they've found a more efficient way to cherry-pick routes

its the Flex equivalent of a "demotion" - a driver gets "less affluent" areas over and over, the driver could end up thinking the whole operation is in decline

not so

or - they have stopped cherry-picking routes and the usual beneficiaries of that are suddenly lumped in w the rest of us

no way to tell


----------



## flexian

WMUber said:


> What I do believe is there is a subset of drivers with an External Locus of Control.


that subset overwhelmingly gets the vast majority of Prime Now shifts

and id say that subset probably contains almost all of the 36-40/hr-a-week drivers

(so maybe they are onto something....?)

but tbh i have no idea what ur point is


----------



## kmatt




----------



## Poolepit

kmatt said:


>


Pretty shady vague response imo.


----------



## observer

Poolepit said:


> Pretty shady vague response imo.


I dunno if if it's shady. It looks pretty clear that the tips are INCLUDED in the pay to make up the minimum 18-25.

It's doublespeak if you read it correctly just like Uberspeak.


----------



## grams777

kmatt said:


>


It sounds like a way to rip off tips by applying part of your tips toward the guaranteed hourly rate.

Maybe this is saying in this example the variable upfront base would be $17 per hour or $34 for the two hour block. The tip of $5 is applied as $2 toward the minimum of $36 then the extra $3 on top of that. Or, looking at it another way, there was a total of $34 (direct pay by amazon at beginning of block) + 5 (tips) = $39. Since it was above the minimum of $36, Amazon did not add anything extra. In effect, you lost part of your tip.

If there were no tips in this example, then Amazon would chip in $2 (the supplemental amount at the end of the block) to make the $18 per hour minimum of $36 for the two hours.

This looks somewhat similar to what Lyft does with it's guarantees by counting your tips toward your guarantee amounts (https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/214218157-Average-Hourly-Guarantees).

It seems like it's taking away part or all of tips. You wouldn't really be able to tell unless you know the variable upfront base, hourly rate, and actual tips. Since the reporting is not very detailed, you would just perhaps notice a general decline in tips without understanding this was happening.


----------



## UberPasco

Wow. Just WOW. You guys just run with your theories. Get a bunch of people riled up over the 'injustice of it all'. Sue for unfair trade. Maybe even be one of those guys who files a handwritten class-action lawsuit.

If the question was "My girlfriend and I are having a disagreement over what constitutes 'just the tip'?", you would have received the same exact response.

Reading is Fun. Unless you can't comprehend. Then I imagine it is extremely frustrating.


----------



## Poolepit

In his email he wrote that he tipped his driver $5, was his only delivery on that block, yet his driver only received $3. Story checks out.

I wish there was some way to receive a detailed statement of earnings of every delivery. I don't know if there is. There might be. That would at least settle the debate.


----------



## UberPasco

Poolepit said:


> In his email he wrote that he tipped his driver $5, was his only delivery on that block, yet his driver only received $3. Story checks out.


Yeah, OK.


----------



## flexian

just need to know what in what possible situation "supplemental earnings" might be required to get up to $18/hr, that's all....


----------



## WMUber

You guys are approaching this from the wrong angle...

You keep email amazon about your tips. You keep getting answers about your tips.

You should be emailing Amazon about your "Base".

Send an email worded as such:

"With the new variable base pay policy, what was my base pay for the following block:
Saturday 2:00 pm to 6:00 pm
Total Pay $78.00

Thank You,
Your Name
Your Warehouse
Your Phone Number"

If you do not get an exact amount, email them again, repeat until they give you the actual number. Demand an audit of your pay.


----------



## flexian

yeah, agreed

i think it won't be $2.13/hr as many fear, it will be more like minimum wage, which depends on the state

that way, if some future judge claims Amazon ICs were actually employees this whole time, Amazon has it covered

also depending on the state, the $18-25 claim will either be the min/max (in 37 states), or (in the other states) it will be just a best-guess estimate of what the average driver could maybe make

does san francisco still advertise $30+/hr? i bet they still do.


WMUber said:


> If you do not get an exact amount, email them again, repeat until they give you the actual number.


also, i might be wrong about this, but ive heard that there is a Fare Adjustment - a dollar amount - that exists (but not visibly in the app at a glance) but which isn't always added to the wages......

so kind of like Uber drivers contesting a surge, it might behoove Flex drivers to contact Amazon after every block and ask for a Fare Adjustment

having said that, doing so could be playing right into their hands.....for example, with the Fare Adjustment added in, it could top out at no more than $25/hr each time (by design) and thus the "$18-25/hr" quote could mean something really specific, not just a general average driver type of thing



WMUber said:


> Demand an audit of your pay.


they might be giving different people different base amounts on the same block, that could get very interesting


----------



## uberer2016

Tips is really dependent on location. I deliver in Orange County area and I get a bunch of tips. Been with amazon for 5 months now and I don't see a change in tips since I started. The more deliveries I make, the more chance for tips. Last Friday, I made 2 prime now deliveries during a 2-hour period. It took only 1 hour to complete both deliveries and today I saw I got paid $71!!! That's $35 in tips for just 2 deliveries!!! There were 7 packages for each delivery so if the customer was tipping based on percentage, maybe one delivery was worth a lot so thats why tips was so high. So yea, prime now income could really vary from driver to driver depending on location. If you deliver to ghetto neighborhood, people tend to spend less so tips will reflect so.


----------



## grams777

Looking back on my last week of earnings when I last drove (in February), there was a pretty serious decline in my pay. I didn't understand why. But, this thread about the pay change perhaps explains why.

Up until some time in February, I was averaging about $30 per block hour. The range was easily in the $25-35 area. A block or two every day or so would even be $40+ per block hour.

Then, over many blocks over several days, all of a sudden I was now only averaging about $25 per block hour. The highest was only $30 per block hour. With similar routes, same city, and similar times, I was now only ranging between $20 - $30. This was one of the reasons I stopped driving. That amount of money lost adds up especially with so many expenses.

I just calculated that this is actually a very serious pay cut. If I lose $5 per block hour, my net profit per day after car expenses goes from $135 to $100. This is a 25% pay cut in net profit.

For background on my analysis which I did at the same time I stopped driving see this post:
https://uberpeople.net/threads/flex-prime-now-7-15-per-hour.142708/

I have updated it in a later post in that thread with the lower hourly rates I experienced at the end. This pay cut puts it right about at minimum wage.

It's heading down quickly toward or below Uber pay at a pretty fast pace. Uber for the average driver (below min wage after car expenses) is still probably worse than Flex though. But that's not saying much.


----------



## kmatt

grams777 said:


> Looking back on my last week of earnings when I last drove (in February), there was a pretty serious decline in my pay. I didn't understand why. But, this thread about the pay change perhaps explains why.
> 
> Up until some time in February, I was averaging about $30 per block hour. The range was easily in the $25-35 area. A block or two every day or so would even be $40+ per block hour.
> 
> Then, over many blocks over several days, all of a sudden I was now only averaging about $25 per block hour. The highest was only $30 per block hour. With similar routes, same city, and similar times, I was now only ranging between $20 - $30. This was one of the reasons I stopped driving. That amount of money lost adds up especially with so many expenses.
> 
> I just calculated that this is actually a very serious pay cut. If I lose $5 per block hour, my net profit per day after car expenses goes from $135 to $100. This is a 25% pay cut in net profit.
> 
> For background on my analysis which I did at the same time I stopped driving see this post:
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/flex-prime-now-7-15-per-hour.142708/
> 
> I have updated it in a later post in that thread with the lower hourly rates I experienced at the end. This pay cut puts it right about at minimum wage.
> 
> It's heading down quickly toward or below Uber pay at a pretty fast pace. Uber for the average driver (below min wage after car expenses) is still probably worse than Flex though. But that's not saying much.


Nah man, we are the one ones with reading comprehension problems! These dummies are homers and/or blind and don't get it. They are taking on average $10 a block from us. The variable base Amazon is paying us is now $10-14/hr instead of $18/hr fixed base. I'm so glad that I/customers can save the most valuable company in the world more $.


----------



## grams777

It could be why, at the same time, the flex application is now opened back up in about 15 more cities again. They may need to churn through some more drivers to settle for the new rates. Until recently it was closed in all but 2 or 3 regions.


----------



## Poolepit

Still blows my mind that the majority of drivers I have talked to in person and on here have noticed a large paycut since around the same time or a little before (as stated above) with no real explanation from amazon. Yet other fellow drivers who have taken the same cut defend amazon and question our intelligence level. Unbelievable.

If you guys need me I'll be busy trying to comprehend reading.


----------



## observer

Poolepit said:


> Still blows my mind that the majority of drivers I have talked to in person and on here have noticed a large paycut since around the same time or a little before (as stated above) with no real explanation from amazon. Yet other fellow drivers who have taken the same cut defend amazon and question our intelligence level. Unbelievable.
> 
> If you guys need me I'll be busy trying to comprehend reading.












If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Remember, the only time a company changes something on its own, is for it's OWN BENEFIT.

I think I'll join you on brushing up on my reading comprehension skills.


----------



## UberPasco

I get it, you guys are trolling me right?

The rate is saying the MINIMUM you get (ie., your BASE) is $18.00/hr. If they need drivers, they can INCREASE the base. If you get tipped, it WILL increase your calculated avg per hr. Up to the $25.00 range. They should have added ++++, because I have made up to $38 /hr.

Here is from Sat. From top to bottom. 0 deliveries, 6, 2, 1, and 1.


----------



## grams777

UberPasco said:


> I get it, you guys are trolling me right?
> 
> The rate is saying the MINIMUM you get (ie., your BASE) is $18.00/hr. If they need drivers, they can INCREASE the base. If you get tipped, it WILL increase your calculated avg per hr. Up to the $25.00 range. They should have added ++++, because I have made up to $38 /hr.
> 
> Here is from Sat. From top to bottom. 0 deliveries, 6, 2, 1, and 1.


The base is not the same as the minimum. It is similar to Uber or Lyft, where the base is a fixed amount less than the minimum. The 18-25 is not a cap on total earnings.

You can make more than 18-25. You can still get good tips and maybe get $40 in an hour. The problem is you would have got more if the formula was minimum + tips. Instead it is base + tips per the emails in this thread.

For example, a 1 hour block could have a base of $12, minimum of $18, and you got $10 in tips. Instead of getting $28 you get $22.

They explain that the base can be less than than the minimum. They explain it in a way hard to understand. But it basically means they will take your tips and apply part of them to your hourly minimum.

It's the same concept as a server at a restaurant. They usually get about $2 an hour. Then they get tips. If the $2 plus the tips is below min wage, the restaurant kicks in the difference. Otherwise the restaurant just pays the $2 part.

There's not really a way for anyone to look at their earnings and see what exactly the base is. Every block could be different. All amazon says is your total is $x including all tips. It doesn't tell you what the base is.

It's possible at some times the minimum may equal the base. Nobody really knows what they're getting or how much of their tips are being applied to the minimum.


----------



## flexian

well, nobody's hallucinating, this seems to be the new trend in the money-losing delivery startup scene:

https://uberpeople.net/threads/new-doordash-pay-model-beta.148669/



> *Here's how it works:*
> 
> With this test, instead of receiving the same amount for each delivery, delivery earnings will now be based on estimated effort.
> 
> When your account is included in the test, you will now see the exact amount of money you will make for completing a delivery on the Accept Order screen. This amount includes both 100% of the customer tip as well as delivery pay from DoorDash.
> 
> The total amount you'll receive is calculated based on a variety of factors including distance, size of the order, Dasher place orders, restaurants with long prep times, and more.


----------



## Ryle2013

From what I am reading on FB and other sources it doesn't seem like drivers in states where tip credit is illegal are being effected. Amazon seems to be taking advantage of drivers in states where tip credit is legal. I drive in Seattle and I am still seeing pretty good tips.


----------



## Poolepit

No I'm pretty sure the drivers who's pay is being affected negatively are just idiots who can't comprehend the English language according to others here.


----------



## Behemoth

Ryle2013 said:


> From what I am reading on FB and other sources it doesn't seem like drivers in states where tip credit is illegal are being effected. Amazon seems to be taking advantage of drivers in states where tip credit is legal. I drive in Seattle and I am still seeing pretty good tips.


Wow, these rates are insane. $36 for the same block in Chicago.


----------



## WMUber

As I said in a previous post...

Let's put an end to this in a quantifiable manner.

In the Earnings Section of the app, click on the block you question your earnings.
Click on "Report a Problem"

In the preformatted email, indicate the date and time of the block.

Under "Describe your question or concern here:" write the following:

"Please send me a breakout of my earnings. Please itemize my base pay separate from my tips."

Thank You,
Your Name
Your Warehouse
Your Phone Number


If you do not get an exact amount, email them again, repeat until they give you the actual number. Demand an audit of your pay. Clog their support services email server with demands of the exact breakdown. But, if you approach it from the "I am missing tips" vagueness, you will get the vague answer. You need to be very specific.


----------



## uberer2016

Ryle2013 said:


> From what I am reading on FB and other sources it doesn't seem like drivers in states where tip credit is illegal are being effected. Amazon seems to be taking advantage of drivers in states where tip credit is legal. I drive in Seattle and I am still seeing pretty good tips.


Wth? How do u get $45 to $50 per hour? What is ur base pay? Thats insane because on average, I get about $24/hr including tips here in socal and i have to pay state taxes.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> As I said in a previous post...
> 
> Let's put an end to this in a quantifiable manner.
> 
> In the Earnings Section of the app, click on the block you question your earnings.
> Click on "Report a Problem"
> 
> In the preformatted email, indicate the date and time of the block.
> 
> Under "Describe your question or concern here:" write the following:
> 
> "Please send me a breakout of my earnings. Please itemize my base pay separate from my tips."
> 
> Thank You,
> Your Name
> Your Warehouse
> Your Phone Number
> 
> If you do not get an exact amount, email them again, repeat until they give you the actual number. Demand an audit of your pay. Clog their support services email server with demands of the exact breakdown. But, if you approach it from the "I am missing tips" vagueness, you will get the vague answer. You need to be very specific.


I'm not sure this is going to do anything. I asked two days ago.

All they said was they will investigate it and let me know:

Hello,

We received your question about payments ... for a block on ...

We are investigating the discrepancy and will provide an update when we have more information.

We'd appreciate your feedback. Please use the links below to tell us about your experience today.

Best regards,​
Really, is it that hard to tell me how much the base pay was for a block? Or is there something to hide? What kind of investigation and information do you need to lookup pay on a block? Come on. You can tell me every little detail about every delivery but then all of a sudden draw a blank to this question.

If there was no jacking around, the answer should have been simple. They should have been able to just say that I earned the $18 per hour and the rest was 100% of my tips. So far, that answer is not what I'm getting.

I have a feeling I won't hear back from them again.

That's a pretty screwed up method of pay where they won't even break out your earnings into base pay and tips even if you ask.

In other words, Amazon may secretly pay whatever mix of base pay and tips that they want at any time (i.e. effectively take away part of tips) and we will have no idea what they are doing.


----------



## WMUber

grams777 said:


> I'm not sure this is going to do anything. I asked two days ago.
> 
> All they said was they will investigate it and let me know:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We received your question about payments ... for a block on ...
> 
> We are investigating the discrepancy and will provide an update when we have more information.
> 
> We'd appreciate your feedback. Please use the links below to tell us about your experience today.
> 
> Best regards,​
> Really, is it that hard to tell me how much the base pay was for a block? Or is there something to hide? What kind of investigation and information do you need to lookup pay on a block? Come on. You can tell me every little detail about every delivery but then all of a sudden draw a blank to this question.
> 
> If there was no jacking around, the answer should have been simple. They should have been able to just say that I earned the $18 per hour and the rest was 100% of my tips. So far, that answer is not what I'm getting.
> 
> I have a feeling I won't hear back from them again.
> 
> That's a pretty screwed up method of pay where they won't even break out your earnings into base pay and tips even if you ask.
> 
> In other words, Amazon may secretly pay whatever mix of base pay and tips that they want at any time (i.e. effectively take away part of tips) and we will have no idea what they are doing.


You wait 24 hours and then send a "Second Request", wait another 24 hours and then send a "Third Request". Repeat until you have an answer. If all drivers do this, Amazon will have no choice but to get you the answer. Even if Amazon is applying some sort of "Tip Credit" formula, they may have state laws that they have to abide to.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> You wait 24 hours and then send a "Second Request", wait another 24 hours and then send a "Third Request". Repeat until you have an answer. If all drivers do this, Amazon will have no choice but to get you the answer. Even if Amazon is applying some sort of "Tip Credit" formula, they may have state laws that they have to abide to.


It might work. Maybe not.

Whenever I tried that before with Amazon they ignore future responses and never reply to it again.

In any case, this doesn't seem to be a simple magic formula of "putting an end to it in a quantifiable manner". It 's not just as simple as asking. And it's not disclosed anywhere. So there we are.

If anything it's a long shot at an indirect protest. I have yet to see anyone get an answer to this simple question for any block they have ever done.

I don't think Amazon (or Uber, Lyft, etc) cares about anything unless they run out of drivers. Look at the similar way Uber plays games with the upfront pricing driver ripoff.

For now, all one can do is look at the numbers they're getting paid and see if it's worth it.

Just be aware that your tips can be applied toward your minimum at any time in any amount without disclosure.

One day a $36 two hour block with $20 in tips may pay $56. The next day, a $36 two hour block with $20 in tips may pay $46 if Amazon siphons off $10 of your tips toward the minimum. And the reporting wouldn't show anything different except a lower total. And you mistakingly thought that tips were just lower that next day.


----------



## grams777

I got the following response which gave me no breakout but confirmed the same information about the variable base (i.e. pay cut) that others mentioned in this thread.

All they say was my earnings are 'correct' but will not break them out. I have replied asking again for the breakout.

If I didn't read this forum I wouldn't have even known the pay system changed. I didn't receive any notice until I asked for a detail of some of my blocks into base pay and tips.

Response I received:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Amazon Flex.

Since the launch of Amazon Flex in 2015, delivery partners have always earned our commitment of $18-$25 per hour, including 100% of customer tips. To ensure we met our commitment as the program launched, we applied a fixed base of $18 per hour, regardless of volume or region, and passed 100% of tips along to delivery partners.

You may have noticed some changes recently with the introduction of variable base earnings. Variable base earnings is the portion of the total earnings paid directly by Amazon to delivery partners. A part of the variable base is determined before a block starts and is calculated based on the duration of the delivery block and any increases to meet spikes in customer demand. After the block is complete, we add any supplemental earnings required to meet our commitment that delivery partners earn $18-$25 per hour.

Our earnings commitment to delivery partners has not changed-delivery partners still earn $18-$25 per hour including 100% of customer tips and you will never earn less than the minimum amount shown when accepting a block. In fact, average delivery partner earnings for tipped deliveries are over $20 per hour.

We have investigated your account and confirmed the earnings you received are correct.

Best regards,
....
Thank you.
*The Amazon Flex Team*


----------



## Behemoth

Smells like another class action lawsuit. If that's true, how do they dare to steal our tips?


----------



## WMUber

grams777 said:


> I got the following response which gave me no breakout but confirmed the same information about the variable base (i.e. pay cut) that others mentioned in this thread.
> 
> All they say was my earnings are 'correct' but will not break them out. I have replied asking again for the breakout.
> 
> If I didn't read this forum I wouldn't have even known the pay system changed. I didn't receive any notice until I asked for a detail of some of my blocks into base pay and tips.
> 
> Response I received:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Thank you for contacting Amazon Flex.
> 
> Since the launch of Amazon Flex in 2015, delivery partners have always earned our commitment of $18-$25 per hour, including 100% of customer tips. To ensure we met our commitment as the program launched, we applied a fixed base of $18 per hour, regardless of volume or region, and passed 100% of tips along to delivery partners.
> 
> You may have noticed some changes recently with the introduction of variable base earnings. Variable base earnings is the portion of the total earnings paid directly by Amazon to delivery partners. A part of the variable base is determined before a block starts and is calculated based on the duration of the delivery block and any increases to meet spikes in customer demand. After the block is complete, we add any supplemental earnings required to meet our commitment that delivery partners earn $18-$25 per hour.
> 
> Our earnings commitment to delivery partners has not changed-delivery partners still earn $18-$25 per hour including 100% of customer tips and you will never earn less than the minimum amount shown when accepting a block. In fact, average delivery partner earnings for tipped deliveries are over $20 per hour.
> 
> We have investigated your account and confirmed the earnings you received are correct.
> 
> Best regards,
> ....
> Thank you.
> *The Amazon Flex Team*


Of course Amazon is going sent their first response with the canned response.

Reply with: "This did not answer my question. Please send me the breakdown of my base pay and tip earnings."

You have to keep at it until they send you the actual numbers.

As I said, Amazon does not want their support email servers clogged with these requests. They will eventually cave.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> Of course Amazon is going sent their first response with the canned response.
> 
> Reply with: "This did not answer my question. Please send me the breakdown of my base pay and tip earnings."
> 
> You have to keep at it until they send you the actual numbers.
> 
> As I said, Amazon does not want their support email servers clogged with these requests. They will eventually cave.


My reply to their canned answer is getting the silent treatment.


----------



## marioramirez1973

Here in Las Vegas Tips are unaffected .....


----------



## UberPasco

marioramirez1973 said:


> Here in Las Vegas Tips are unaffected .....


No, according to grams777, they randomly decide when and how much of their tips they will give you. Unless they don't.


----------



## marioramirez1973

Last 2 Blocks 
4 hours $117
4 Hours $97 ( and one of the 2 hours parts was only 2 stops with like 15 packages )
4 Hours $102.5

I don't think people are reading the email like i read it . but that is just me . But it's one of those things that if true Amazon is gambling too much for too little , cause if it ever comes out ( and things always do in corporations ) they will be sued in a drop of a dime !!!!!

SO i don't worry . I thinks its just more people using the Prime ( New and Repeats ) that just don't tip as much as before ( mostly the repeats that order almost every day )

Now you have to be a bad tipper to manually change the $5 dollar amount Prime auto puts in Tips !!!!!! But many are , many are !!!!!!


----------



## UberPasco

This is the response I received.* I am NOT happy*!:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Amazon Flex.

Since the launch of Amazon Flex in 2015, delivery partners have always earned our commitment of $18-$25 per hour, including 100% of customer tips. To ensure we met our commitment as the program launched, we applied a fixed base of $18 per hour, regardless of volume or region, and passed 100% of tips along to delivery partners.

*You may have noticed some changes recently with the introduction of variable base earnings. Variable base earnings is the portion of the total earnings paid directly by Amazon to delivery partners. A part of the variable base is determined before a block starts and is calculated based on the duration of the delivery block and any increases to meet spikes in customer demand. After the block is complete, we add any supplemental earnings required to meet our commitment that delivery partners earn $18-$25 per hour.

As you know, there are times when you have been paid for blocks that have not had a delivery associated within that time frame. Due to these changes, our delivery partners will not be paid for these blocks. We will be deducting the amount from future earnings to lessen the impact on your pay. Our analysis shows that for an average 2-hr block, the duration of deliveries rarely exceeds 1 1/2-hrs. At this time we will NOT be adjusting our delivery partners pay downward.*

Our earnings commitment to delivery partners has not changed-delivery partners still earn up to $18-$25 per hour including 100% of customer tips and you will never earn less than the minimum amount shown when accepting a block in which a delivery occurs. In fact, average delivery partner earnings for tipped deliveries are over $20 per hour.

We have investigated your account and confirmed the earnings you received are correct.

Best regards,
....
Thank you.
*The Amazon Flex Team*


----------



## Poolepit

I've only had one block with no delivery and that was last weekend and I've been doing this since October but my pay has been negatively affected for months now. So we aren't going to be paid for blocks we don't get a delivery request on? Or we will and they will just deduct it from our other pay? I'm confused as to what they are getting at.


----------



## grams777

marioramirez1973 said:


> Last 2 Blocks
> 4 hours $117
> 4 Hours $97 ( and one of the 2 hours parts was only 2 stops with like 15 packages )
> 4 Hours $102.5
> 
> I don't think people are reading the email like i read it . but that is just me . But it's one of those things that if true Amazon is gambling too much for too little , cause if it ever comes out ( and things always do in corporations ) they will be sued in a drop of a dime !!!!!
> 
> SO i don't worry . I thinks its just more people using the Prime ( New and Repeats ) that just don't tip as much as before ( mostly the repeats that order almost every day )
> 
> Now you have to be a bad tipper to manually change the $5 dollar amount Prime auto puts in Tips !!!!!! But many are , many are !!!!!!


I'm not sure if you mean that as good or bad. That doesn't seem very good for 4 hours. At an average of $26 per block hour, that's nowhere near worth it for the work in our city. There's a lot of driving miles and unpaid time in each block.

I used to do that pretty easily with 3 hour blocks. My tips used to add around $5 per stop. Now they only add maybe $2-3 per stop.

In January - Feb (rounded to nearest $5):
3 Hours $90, $100, $150, $110, $120

Something changed in February then:

3 Hours $75, $100
(other block durations similar dropped like a rock)

There's not really any other way to read the email. It means what it says. Variable base simply means they may apply your tips to your minimum as they see fit without any notice or disclosure. They're not going to say it like that or else people would be furious.

They're counting on making it sound different so people don't understand they're getting their pay reduced by offsetting with tips. This is probably also the reason they won't directly answer your question if you ask what your base is for any block. Try to ask, am I being paid $18 per hour PLUS 100% of my tips. Or, how much is my base and tips for a certain block.

Some places they might have the variable equal to the minimum, so it will be near impossible to compare. Amazon won't break it out. So, all you can do is compare what you used to make about 2-3 months ago and see if something changed.



Poolepit said:


> I've only had one block with no delivery and that was last weekend and I've been doing this since October but my pay has been negatively affected for months now. So we aren't going to be paid for blocks we don't get a delivery request on? Or we will and they will just deduct it from our other pay? I'm confused as to what they are getting at.


That's crazy and new to me. I don't think I've had it happen. But sounds like another bad policy. So they pay you at the time for it, then deduct it in the future if there were no deliveries in the block.


----------



## kmatt

grams777 said:


> I'm not sure if you mean that as good or bad. That doesn't seem very good for 4 hours. At an average of $26 per block hour, that's nowhere near worth it for the work in our city. There's a lot of driving miles and unpaid time in each block.
> 
> I used to do that pretty easily with 3 hour blocks. My tips used to add around $5 per stop. Now they only add maybe $2-3 per stop.
> 
> In January - Feb (rounded to nearest $5):
> 3 Hours $90, $100, $150, $110, $120
> 
> Something changed in February then:
> 
> 3 Hours $75, $100
> (other block durations similar dropped like a rock)
> 
> There's not really any other way to read the email. It means what it says. Variable base simply means they may apply your tips to your minimum as they see fit without any notice or disclosure. They're not going to say it like that or else people would be furious.
> 
> They're counting on making it sound different so people don't understand they're getting their pay reduced by offsetting with tips. This is probably also the reason they won't directly answer your question if you ask what your base is for any block. Try to ask, am I being paid $18 per hour PLUS 100% of my tips. Or, how much is my base and tips for a certain block.
> 
> Some places they might have the variable equal to the minimum, so it will be near impossible to compare. Amazon won't break it out. So, all you can do is compare what you used to make about 2-3 months ago and see if something changed.
> 
> That's crazy and new to me. I don't think I've had it happen. But sounds like another bad policy. So they pay you at the time for it, then deduct it in the future if there were no deliveries in the block.


It's not even worth explaining to these non-believers. They have been eating too many sandwiches for too long.


----------



## grams777

*Our analysis shows that for an average 2-hr block, the duration of deliveries rarely exceeds 1 1/2-hrs. 
*
I don't know where they get that. My average two hour block goes something like this:
15 minutes waiting for the warehouse line to get to me, scanning, and putting in car
20 minutes, driving to first drop off
1 hour 15 minutes dropping off the rest
30 minutes return to warehouse

I guess it partly depends on what they mean by 'duration of deliveries'. If they mean the time from the arrival at the first to drop off at the last delivery, it makes sense.

*At this time we will NOT be adjusting our delivery partners pay downward.*

By this, I assume they just mean the $18-25 guarantee will not be adjusted downward. But the pay can still go downward due to the variable base and tips applied to the minimum issue they just mentioned.


----------



## marioramirez1973

This is they way i read it . ( Based on what i have done here in Las Vegas )

Logistics - Will not affect since there are no tips ( done in 1 hour a 3 hour block no problem , now you must try with all effort to delivery all packages given regardless of time taken )

PrimeNow 1 hour or 2 Hours - Here in Las Vegas if you have a 2 hour block you will work the 2 hours , if you have a 4 hour , you will work the 4 hours . So i see nothing happening . ( Now if in your city you get a 4 hour block and only work 2 i see them adjusting there ) 

Hot Wheels - Now there i see things different . They hand out 3 hours blocks ( once i had 2 back to back so 6 hours ) of those 6 hours i made only 3 deliveries not because of me , just no pings . SO of the 6 hours i worked maybe 2 or maybe 3 , so i can see them saying hey we want to pay you for 6 but you only worked 3 ( again not my fault ) so we will now pay you your tips plus only the hours worked on deliveries , the sit and wait time no . SO when you do work 3 hour block and do work the 3 hours we will pay you all tips and deduct the hours paid before adjusting with the tips to complete the 18 an hour minimum. Is that wrong YES it is cause it's not the drivers fault no pings. 

They are not shaving or taking your tips , you are still getting 100% of the tips , that they are doing y reducing your hour pay based on true hours worked no blocks ( i can see that also since there are guys with 4 hours blocks that do a 2 hour run and stay away , same with restaurant not pick up all pings to work less )

What i have seen here in Las Vegas is better Paying Blocks when there are few drivers ( i saw a 4 hour block for 100 - 150 with tips )


----------



## grams777

kmatt said:


> It's not even worth explaining ...


Variable base should be pretty easy to understand you're getting ripped off. But then again, much of this gig economy depends on the workers not understanding what they're really getting or risking.



marioramirez1973 said:


> This is they way i read it . ( Based on what i have done here in Las Vegas )
> 
> They are not shaving or taking your tips , you are still getting 100% of the tips , that they are doing y reducing your hour pay based on true hours worked no blocks ( i can see that also since there are guys with 4 hours blocks that do a 2 hour run and stay away , same with restaurant not pick up all pings to work less )
> 
> What i have seen here in Las Vegas is better Paying Blocks when there are few drivers ( i saw a 4 hour block for 100 - 150 with tips )


It's hard to tell. Amazon won't break it out. I hardly ever had any time that I was not doing deliveries in a block. Almost every block I have is a struggle to fit in the time allocated even getting there 15 minutes early. Yet my total pay still noticeably decreased.


----------



## kmatt

UberPasco said:


> This is the response I received.* I am NOT happy*!:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Thank you for contacting Amazon Flex.
> 
> Since the launch of Amazon Flex in 2015, delivery partners have always earned our commitment of $18-$25 per hour, including 100% of customer tips. To ensure we met our commitment as the program launched, we applied a fixed base of $18 per hour, regardless of volume or region, and passed 100% of tips along to delivery partners.
> 
> *You may have noticed some changes recently with the introduction of variable base earnings. Variable base earnings is the portion of the total earnings paid directly by Amazon to delivery partners. A part of the variable base is determined before a block starts and is calculated based on the duration of the delivery block and any increases to meet spikes in customer demand. After the block is complete, we add any supplemental earnings required to meet our commitment that delivery partners earn $18-$25 per hour.
> 
> As you know, there are times when you have been paid for blocks that have not had a delivery associated within that time frame. Due to these changes, our delivery partners will not be paid for these blocks. We will be deducting the amount from future earnings to lessen the impact on your pay. Our analysis shows that for an average 2-hr block, the duration of deliveries rarely exceeds 1 1/2-hrs. At this time we will NOT be adjusting our delivery partners pay downward.*
> 
> Our earnings commitment to delivery partners has not changed-delivery partners still earn up to $18-$25 per hour including 100% of customer tips and you will never earn less than the minimum amount shown when accepting a block in which a delivery occurs. In fact, average delivery partner earnings for tipped deliveries are over $20 per hour.
> 
> We have investigated your account and confirmed the earnings you received are correct.
> 
> Best regards,
> ....
> Thank you.
> *The Amazon Flex Team*


It's hilarious that you got this instead of one of us who are calling out their bull$hit.


----------



## UberPasco

grams777 said:


> Almost every block I have is a struggle to fit in the time allocated even getting there 15 minutes early. Yet my total pay still noticeably decreased.


Some of us are more efficient than others.


----------



## kmatt

I hope uberpasco made up this paragraph to clown us because that's directly against the agreement when we accept a block for $18-25/hr. Nothing on the app says "however, if you don't take any deliveries...."


----------



## grams777

kmatt said:


> I hope uberpasco made up this paragraph to clown us because that's directly against the agreement when we accept a block for $18-25/hr. Nothing on the app says "however, if you don't take any deliveries...."





UberPasco said:


> Some of us are more efficient than others.


There was a movie about 10 years ago where someone was warning people who lived on an island that the water was going to rise and flood it completely.

The people laughed and made jokes and explained it away.

Even as the waves came in and the ocean covered the land in about a foot of water and increasing, everyone (standing almost knee deep in the water already) kept laughing and partying and making fun of it all as the ship sailed away.


----------



## grams777

Here's Amazon's third reply to my asking for a simple breakdown of base earnings and tips at the block level. I have to say this is about the shadiest reporting of earnings I've seen in driving to where they refuse to even tell you your total tips. These shady characters really don't want you to know what they're doing.

Hello,

To protect the confidentiality of the customer and how much they choose to tip, we do not show a breakdown of earnings. Delivery partners earn $18-$25 per hour including 100% of tips.

Best regards,


----------



## WMUber

grams777 said:


> Here's Amazon's third reply to my asking for a simple breakdown of base earnings and tips at the block level. I have to say this is about the shadiest reporting of earnings I've seen in driving to where they refuse to even tell you your total tips. These shady characters really don't want you to know what they're doing.
> 
> Hello,
> 
> To protect the confidentiality of the customer and how much they choose to tip, we do not show a breakdown of earnings. Delivery partners earn $18-$25 per hour including 100% of tips.
> 
> Best regards,


Here is where you have research your state's tip credit laws. If you live in a state that does not allow the practice (such as my state, California) then you need to notify them of that. Even if your state allows for tip credit, there probably is a reporting procedure Amazon needs to follow.

At some point, buzz words such as "Labor Board", "Small Claims", "Subpoena", etc. will get their attention.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> Here is where you have research your state's tip credit laws. If you live in a state that does not allow the practice (such as my state, California) then you need to notify them of that. Even if your state allows for tip credit, there probably is a reporting procedure Amazon needs to follow.
> 
> At some point, buzz words such as "Labor Board", "Small Claims", "Subpoena", etc. will get their attention.


Everywhere I read tip credit only applies to employees. And it integrates with the various minimum wage laws. None of these apply to contractors.

It's not like I intend to spend the next 5 years fighting Amazon for what amounts to a job that nets about $7-10 per hour after expenses and all hours.

Hey if everyone wants to fight over these blocks and get ripped off, more power to them. Everyone keeps driving no matter what Amazon, Uber or Lyft do to their pay.

Although I find it interesting that nobody fights over the hundreds of jobs I see posted around me every day that likely pay more than Amazon, Uber, or Lyft.


----------



## WMUber

grams777 said:


> Everywhere I read tip credit only applies to employees. And it integrates with the various minimum wage laws. None of these apply to contractors.
> 
> It's not like I intend to spend the next 5 years fighting Amazon for what amounts to a job that nets about $7-10 per hour after expenses and all hours.
> 
> Hey if everyone wants to fight over these blocks and get ripped off, more power to them. Everyone keeps driving no matter what Amazon, Uber or Lyft do to their pay.
> 
> Although I find it interesting that nobody fights over the hundreds of jobs I see posted around me every day that likely pay more than Amazon, Uber, or Lyft.


Two things...

1) True, we are I.C.'s; but Amazon does not want a state regulatory agency telling them different. That's why they cap us at 8 and 40 hours. Even as I.C.'s we are owe they right to see our compensation. A suit in a state such as California may force them to show on a block offer only the hourly "Base" rate instead of the range.

2) As for your $7 - $10 hourly pay... Your circumstances are very different than many drivers. From the perspective of someone who lives in Los Angeles, you live and have to deliver in the sticks (or BFE). Most of our 2-hour Prime routes are under 10 miles. Even counting for dead miles, at $0.35 per mile for expenses, we average $20+ an hour. You exaggerated your deductions with expenses that you would have to pay at any job (taxes and health insurance), without taking in account the tax benefits of I.C. deductions. These deductions more than cover the additional 7.65% you have to pay for Social Security and Medicare taxes.

I am not saying take five years of your life to fight for a dead-end job. (Let's face it, gig economy jobs are only good as supplemental income, not as full-time work.) But a properly written email, or $50.00 to a lawyer friend to write a demand letter, can go along way to discover the truth.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> Two things...
> 
> 1) True, we are I.C.'s; but Amazon does not want a state regulatory agency telling them different. That's why they cap us at 8 and 40 hours. Even as I.C.'s we are owe they right to see our compensation. A suit in a state such as California may force them to show on a block offer only the hourly "Base" rate instead of the range.
> 
> 2) As for your $7 - $10 hourly pay... Your circumstances are very different than many drivers. From the perspective of someone who lives in Los Angeles, you live and have to deliver in the sticks (or BFE). Most of our 2-hour Prime routes are under 10 miles. Even counting for dead miles, at $0.35 per mile for expenses, we average $20+ an hour. You exaggerated your deductions with expenses that you would have to pay at any job (taxes and health insurance), without taking in account the tax benefits of I.C. deductions. These deductions more than cover the additional 7.65% you have to pay for Social Security and Medicare taxes.
> 
> I am not saying take five years of your life to fight for a dead-end job. (Let's face it, gig economy jobs are only good as supplemental income, not as full-time work.) But a properly written email, or $50.00 to a lawyer friend to write a demand letter, can go along way to discover the truth.


Fighting amazon or uber over this classification and tip credits is an exercise in throwing good money after bad. It's been tried and hashed over a number of times. The result is the same.

You might be in a better delivery area. But 10 miles in nashville usally won't even get you halfway to your first stop.

Try this real world 2 hour block crap route I did which is not uncommon here...That's 40 miles one way and takes a good 2 hours with driving and stop time - One way. Add another 30 minutes and 20 miles to get back to the metro area. Add 15 minutes waiting around for your packages to begin with. You also had to be there about 15 minutes before the block started to even leave that quick. This is also partly in rush hour fighting traffic. Now play games and apply some tips toward the minimum. There's not much profit left if any.










I'm not sure if you read my original analysis of why I said $7-10 including all time and miles. But there's more to it. I didn't exaggerate but only included a small amount to compensate for having no benefits and taking on the risk of an accident, tickets, etc.

https://uberpeople.net/threads/flex-prime-now-7-15-per-hour.142708/


----------



## WMUber

grams777 said:


> I'm not sure if you read my original analysis of why I said $7-10 including all time and miles. But there's more to it. I didn't exaggerate but only included a small amount to compensate for having no benefits and taking on the risk of an accident, tickets, etc


Yes, I read it. I even commented on it. Unless you work with actuarial tables for a living, you have no idea what that number should be. However, if you properly report your mileage to your automobile insurance company, they have properly calculated that expense. The marginal increase in your rates is that cost.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> Yes, I read it. I even commented on it. Unless you work with actuarial tables for a living, you have no idea what that number should be. However, if you properly report your mileage to your automobile insurance company, they have properly calculated that expense. The marginal increase in your rates is that cost.


It's not that much of an adjustment. I only deducted $21 over 12 hours which is under a $2 per hour difference. Mileage rates cover insurance not getting tickets, increased premiums due to an accident, and other heightened risks. You need to adjust it for something due to the difference between that and any job that's not among the 10 most dangerous.

My point being, at least where I drive it's not like this is some fabulous paying gig worth putting that much effort into fighting over the tip allocation versus just not doing it. Whether it's $5, $7, or $9 is largely irrelevant.


----------



## grams777

It appears Amazon has ignored my fourth reply where I insisted again to escalate the issue and break down my total base and tips. I have not heard anything back since my last post a week ago.

Although, I did find out where the money went that Amazon took back by pushing the tips into the hourly minimums:

Move over Warren Buffett! Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos is now the second richest person on Earth.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/29/technology/jeff-bezos-richest/


----------



## Basmati

I'm absolutely convinced something shady is going on with the tips. On two of my warehouse shifts from Friday, I only made $36 for the 2 hours, despite having done 7 delivery stops. This would imply that out of those 7 people, not a single one tipped. I just don't buy that.


----------



## WMUber

Basmati said:


> I'm absolutely convinced something shady is going on with the tips. On two of my warehouse shifts from Friday, I only made $36 for the 2 hours, despite having done 7 delivery stops. This would imply that out of those 7 people, not a single one tipped. I just don't buy that.


Florida's "Tip Credit" maxes out at $3.02 an hour.

Email Amazon and demand an accounting.


----------



## Keyser Söze

WMUber said:


> Florida's "Tip Credit" maxes out at $3.02 an hour.
> 
> Email Amazon and demand an accounting.


Demanding that they break down your pay will be fruitless, imo. As many have reported already, they will just say they can't/won't due to customer privacy concerns. Eventually they will just stop responding. It will require a lawsuit(s) for them to divulge this info. Sooner or later attorneys will catch wind of this "variable pay" stuff and the class action suits will commence, if they haven't already.


----------



## uberer2016

grams777 said:


> It's not that much of an adjustment. I only deducted $21 over 12 hours which is under a $2 per hour difference. Mileage rates cover insurance not getting tickets, increased premiums due to an accident, and other heightened risks. You need to adjust it for something due to the difference between that and any job that's not among the 10 most dangerous.
> 
> *My point being, at least where I drive it's not like this is some fabulous paying gig worth putting that much effort into fighting over the tip allocation versus just not doing it. *Whether it's $5, $7, or $9 is largely irrelevant.


So your original post only apply to where you work? This Amazon gig is very different from city to city. In my city, its nowhere near as bad as you think. Im even considering moving closer to a hotwheel waiting area so I'd save a lot more money from less driving.

Also, people dont fight over other jobs that pay more than amazon, uber, lyft, etc because they cant. Jobs that pay higher than normal usually require some specific skills that not everyone has. 
Amazon, lyft, uber dont require any skills other than the ability to drive.


----------



## Poolepit

Basmati said:


> I'm absolutely convinced something shady is going on with the tips. On two of my warehouse shifts from Friday, I only made $36 for the 2 hours, despite having done 7 delivery stops. This would imply that out of those 7 people, not a single one tipped. I just don't buy that.


Are you sure we aren't just idiots that posses no ability to comprehend what we read?

I used to avarage over $25/h and more closer to $30/h for WH routes. Now I am lucky to average $22/h.


----------



## grams777

Basmati said:


> I'm absolutely convinced something shady is going on with the tips. On two of my warehouse shifts from Friday, I only made $36 for the 2 hours, despite having done 7 delivery stops. This would imply that out of those 7 people, not a single one tipped. I just don't buy that.


There's nothing stopping amazon from giving a base of $0 per hour. In that case, all you will get is your tips. Only if your tips were less than $18 per hour, then amazon would bump the total up to $18. So theoretically, you could do 7 stops in a 2 hour block with $36 in tips and that's all you get. Amazon would chip in nothing. You'd work for tips only.

The hard part is amazon refuses to disclose how much your base pay is. They don't tell before or after a block. So basically you just drive for whatever amazon secretly decides. You get no accounting except the total they decided to pay for a block after you're done.



Poolepit said:


> Are you sure we aren't just idiots that posses no ability to comprehend what we read?
> 
> I used to avarage over $25/h and more closer to $30/h for WH routes. Now I am lucky to average $22/h.


That's what I saw that caused me to drop driving. All of a sudden my average per hour dropped by about $5 per hour or more. We drive a lot of miles and have unpaid time to complete blocks. So that $5+ an hour lost takes a huge chunk out of the net profit that used to be left.

There's no other way to quantify what amazon is doing except to compare your averages. Amazon refuses to give an accounting of the base pay portion of blocks. But they do admit they can vary base pay to anything they want at any time without notice. The only thing known is that the $18 per hour minimum is guaranteed - with tips potentially applied up to 100% to get to the $18.


----------



## WMUber

Keyser Söze said:


> Demanding that they break down your pay will be fruitless, imo. As many have reported already, they will just say they can't/won't due to customer privacy concerns. Eventually they will just stop responding. It will require a lawsuit(s) for them to divulge this info. Sooner or later attorneys will catch wind of this "variable pay" stuff and the class action suits will commence, if they haven't already.


That is only because you are giving up before they are. Keep emailing them. Remind them that your state's labor board can compel them to produce the data through the power of subpoena. So can a small claims case. File a small claims case for $1,000 and subpoena the records.


----------



## Basmati

I sent an email to Amazon asking about the two $36 shifts I worked. It's been two days now and I still haven't received any response back.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> That is only because you are giving up before they are. Keep emailing them. Remind them that your state's labor board can compel them to produce the data through the power of subpoena. So can a small claims case. File a small claims case for $1,000 and subpoena the records.


Most likely a labor board will kick it back unless you argue you're misclassified as an independent contractor. Labor laws generally apply to employees.

Small claims other lawsuits would probably result in Amazon filing a motion to compel arbitration unless you already opted out.

The best action is to at least email them a few times and just stop driving. Let other drivers know as well. If large numbers of people would stop driving and complain, it would stop. But like Uber and Lyft most everyone just takes it and keeps driving.

You could also give them 30 days notice of your intent to file arbitration and give your demands. They'll need to be backed up by the agreement or law. See the agreement for details.

You'll also be out $200 if you go ahead with arbitration. But it's not clear to me what law or section of the agreement is being violated. It's more of just an underhanded pay cut and perhaps being deceptive.

For me, I've done my share of complaining to them and stopped driving for them unless it changes.

Those recommending lawsuits and labor boards should go ahead and file as an example for us and keep us posted so we can see the results they bring. If there are victories, perhaps others will follow.



uberer2016 said:


> Also, people dont fight over other jobs that pay more than amazon, uber, lyft, etc because they cant. Jobs that pay higher than normal usually require some specific skills that not everyone has.
> Amazon, lyft, uber dont require any skills other than the ability to drive.


I would argue that any minimum wage job really pays more than Uber, Lyft, or Amazon on a true net profit basis. Obviously some people will beat minimum wage, but I venture to say the majority don't. The skills for these jobs are pretty minimal as well:


----------



## CatchyMusicLover

If anyone thinks working at Walmart is better than doing Amazon, they need their head reattached, because it clearly fell off.


----------



## observer

grams777 said:


> Most likely a labor board will kick it back unless you argue you're misclassified as an independent contractor. Labor laws generally apply to employees.
> 
> Small claims other lawsuits would probably result in Amazon filing a motion to compel arbitration unless you already opted out.
> 
> The best action is to at least email them a few times and just stop driving. Let other drivers know as well. If large numbers of people would stop driving and complain, it would stop. But like Uber and Lyft most everyone just takes it and keeps driving.
> 
> You could also give them 30 days notice of your intent to file arbitration and give your demands. They'll need to be backed up by the agreement or law. See the agreement for details.
> 
> You'll also be out $200 if you go ahead with arbitration. But it's not clear to me what law or section of the agreement is being violated. It's more of just an underhanded pay cut and perhaps being deceptive.
> 
> For me, I've done my share of complaining to them and stopped driving for them unless it changes.
> 
> Those recommending lawsuits and labor boards should go ahead and file as an example for us and keep us posted so we can see the results they bring. If there are victories, perhaps others will follow.
> 
> I would argue that any minimum wage job really pays more than Uber, Lyft, or Amazon on a true net profit basis. Obviously some people will beat minimum wage, but I venture to say the majority don't. The skills for these jobs are pretty minimal as well:
> View attachment 109693


Where's the press when you need them?


----------



## grams777

CatchyMusicLover said:


> If anyone thinks working at Walmart is better than doing Amazon, they need their head reattached, because it clearly fell off.


It does solve the tipping problem though.


----------



## grams777

Just got this reply to my continued request to show the base pay in total per block. I specifically state I am not asking for individual delivery amounts. So they use this fake confidentiality argument to hide behind.

Amazon doesn't want you to know how much they are using from your tips to pay your guarantee.I wonder if the prime now customers realize that the money they tip might effectively go straight into Amazons pocket through this variable base magic trick.

Are they in essence admitting they breached confidentiality all along when they used to just add the total tips to hourly rates? What other company refuses to tell people who are tipped how much they were tipped? What a crock.

Hello,

As stated in our previous response, to protect the confidentiality of the customer and how much they choose to tip, we do not show a breakdown of earnings.

Best regards,
...
Thank you.
*The Amazon Flex Team*


----------



## WMUber

grams777 said:


> Just got this reply to my continued request to show the base pay in total per block. What a crock.
> 
> Hello,
> 
> As stated in our previous response, to protect the confidentiality of the customer and how much they choose to tip, we do not show a breakdown of earnings.
> 
> Best regards,
> ...
> Thank you.
> *The Amazon Flex Team*


This would be my rebuttal:

I understand that you wish to protect the client. However, let me point out the fallacy of your argument. People have been receiving physical delivery of goods at home and work for over 200 years. There never has been a rash of physical abuse against recipients that failed to properly tip.

That said, I am not asking for you to identify which client tipped what amount, I am simply asking you to show me my hourly base pay and the tip amount. As an Independent Contractor, I am entitled to know the quantitative details of the shifts I worked. Failure to produce such information may result in my Independent Contractor status being reclassified as Employee status by my state's labor board.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> This would be my rebuttal:
> 
> I understand that you wish to protect the client. However, let me point out the fallacy of your argument. People have been receiving physical delivery of goods at home and work for over 200 years. There never has been a rash of physical abuse against recipients that failed to properly tip.
> 
> That said, I am not asking for you to identify which client tipped what amount, I am simply asking you to show me my hourly base pay and the tip amount. As an Independent Contractor, I am entitled to know the quantitative details of the shifts I worked. Failure to produce such information may result in my Independent Contractor status being reclassified as Employee status by my state's labor board.


I don't think the ticket system is manned by anyone who can understand any form of logic. I'm going around in circles with them.

It probably needs to go to their legal department certified mail as a direct demand with a 30 day notice to remedy. Perhaps an FTC complaint would be appropriate based on deceptive / misleading practices - at the consumer and driver level.

Even as tricky as Lyft is when they apply tips toward your guarantees, they don't stoop so low as to hide the tip amounts. They even show them on a per ride basis. Amazon has really gone to an industry low here.

My estimate based on my lower earnings when I last drove is for me they were using a base of about $13 per hour. Then adding tips to that instead of $18. That is about a $5 per hour cut.

Other areas perhaps have an $18 base still. Some might be $0 base if that example is valid of someone doing a two hour block with 7 stops for only $36.


----------



## WMUber

grams777 said:


> I don't think the ticket system is manned by anyone who can understand any form of logic. I'm going around in circles with them.
> 
> It probably needs to go to their legal department certified mail as a direct demand with a 30 day notice to remedy. Perhaps an FTC complaint based on deceptive / misleading practices - at the consumer level and driver.
> 
> Even as tricky as Lyft is when they apply tips toward your guarantees, they don't stoop so low as to hide the tip amounts. They even show them on a per ride basis.


F.Y.I. I live in a state that does not allow Tip Credit. My pay falls into what I would expect. That said, as a test, I have been sending the same emails on one of my shifts. I have been getting the same runaround. But yes, the next step is a certified demand letter.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> F.Y.I. I live in a state that does not allow Tip Credit. My pay falls into what I would expect. That said, as a test, I have been sending the same emails on one of my shifts. I have been getting the same runaround. But yes, the next step is a certified demand letter.


Another good outlet would be to post a review on glassdoor and indeed. These are some of the top search results for amazon flex that people may see.


----------



## Basmati

I still haven't got any response from Amazon, after sending 3 emails, about the two shifts I worked where I only received $36. I simply am asking them if they can confirm that I was paid $18 an hour plus tips on those shifts, because I don't believe 7 different recipients would all have left zero tip. They are completely ignoring me.


----------



## enigmaquip

You could try in a response that under FLSA law if they're putting tips towards the base pay then it falls under Tip Credit and under the law they're required to provide the following information:

The cash wage you will pay the tipped employee;
The amount you will claim as a tip credit;
That the tip credit you claim cannot be more than the amount of tips the employee receives;
That the employee will retain all of their tips, except if there is a valid tip pooling arrangement in place;
That the tip credit does not apply unless you inform the employee of the tip credit.

I'm sure you'll keep getting a canned response, but it's worth a shot


----------



## Behemoth

Basmati said:


> I still haven't got any response from Amazon, after sending 3 emails, about the two shifts I worked where I only received $36. I simply am asking them if they can confirm that I was paid $18 an hour plus tips on those shifts, because I don't believe 7 different recipients would all have left zero tip. They are completely ignoring me.


Man that sounds scary. I haven't done any Prime recently, so I cannot speak. My wife does some HW blocks on my account. And I can tell you that 3 hour ones pay less that let's say 2 months ago. Maybe poeple are cheap in this case. 
But I don't buy that out of 7 stops nobody tipped!


----------



## Basmati

I finally got a response from them. It was just the canned answer others have posted about variable rates and them assuring me I was paid properly.


----------



## chopstick

Man that's crazy.

You would think a company worth tens of billions wouldn't cheat their own drivers out of their OWN tip money and lie about it and give the run around just so they can make a LITTLE more money and pay their drivers a LITTLE less. Why does Amazon feel entitled to keeping tips that their WORKERS earned? I guess for the same reason that Uber feels their drivers don't deserve any tips at all.

Unbelievable greed is at work here. 

Can't wait to stop working for amazon, I hate globalism in all it's forms, and Amazon at the end of the day is a big part of the problem.


----------



## Poolepit

chopstick said:


> Man that's crazy.
> 
> You would think a company worth tens of billions wouldn't cheat their own drivers out of their OWN tip money and lie about it and give the run around just so they can make a LITTLE more money and pay their drivers a LITTLE less. Why does Amazon feel entitled to keeping tips that their WORKERS earned? I guess for the same reason that Uber feels their drivers don't deserve any tips at all.
> 
> Unbelievable greed is at work here.
> 
> Can't wait to stop working for amazon, I hate globalism in all it's forms, and Amazon at the end of the day is a big part of the problem.


Well technically we are keeping all of our tips according to amazon. They just randomly decided to start paying us less than the $18/hour base pay without letting anyone know about it pretty much.

Did a couple of 2 hour WH blocks the other day. One had 6 stops one had 7 stops for 13 stops total. Made exactly $44 on each, so $16 in tips on 13 stops. Back in the day these blocks would have been a guaranteed $50-$60 each easy if not more.


----------



## jester121

grams777 said:


> Perhaps an FTC complaint would be appropriate based on deceptive / misleading practices - at the consumer and driver level.


The consumer side is where someone might get some traction. Basically Amazon is taking the money their beloved customers wanted to go to the drivers, and *diverting it to subsidize their corporate delivery labor costs.* That kind of shit could blow up in their face, for such an image conscious company....


----------



## grams777

jester121 said:


> The consumer side is where someone might get some traction. Basically Amazon is taking the money their beloved customers wanted to go to the drivers, and *diverting it to subsidize their corporate delivery labor costs.* That kind of shit could blow up in their face, for such an image conscious company....


I recently posted a Glass Door review under the Amazon Flex company profile. I'll probably do Indeed next. What these Amazon jokers have tried to do quietly under the cover of dark needs to be publicly exposed.

Everyone should also post reviews under these various job review site profiles as well. I generally do look at these myself before I consider companies.

It's one thing if they at least properly disclosed what they were doing. But this is something else to just siphon the tips to reduce their labor costs without notice to drivers & customers and not even give an accounting of it. I'm sure most drivers are still just doing blocks perhaps wondering why tips seem to be lower lately ....


----------



## Placebo17

If all this is true, it's really disappointing. Especially from such a huge company like amazon.


----------



## UberPasco

Placebo17 said:


> *If all this is true*, it's really disappointing. Especially from such a huge company like amazon.


Except it's not.


----------



## soonsoon

I don't think tips are being manipulated either. Too many variables. Amazon, Bristol, Sprouts. 

Figure this one out. When you deliver Sprouts and the customer ordered Amazon and Sprouts and two driver shows up, Who gets the tip?


----------



## Basmati

In the past two weeks I have had three 2 hour shifts where I was paid $36. Two of them were on the same day, and I did between 3-7 deliveries for each of those shifts. So either a bunch of people have all of a sudden decided to forgo tipping altogether, or Amazon is subsidizing our pay with tips we receive.


----------



## WMUber

soonsoon said:


> I don't think tips are being manipulated either. Too many variables. Amazon, Bristol, Sprouts.
> 
> Figure this one out. When you deliver Sprouts and the customer ordered Amazon and Sprouts and two driver shows up, Who gets the tip?


Except for a San Diego Facebook group, California drivers have not seen anything out of the ordinary. That said, California does not allow "Tip Credit". Amazon may simply not bother with messing with California. Our bureaucratic nightmare and Plaintiff's Attorneys may simply make it too expense to fight if implemented.


----------



## Poolepit

UberPasco said:


> Except it's not.


You're right. It's all a figment of our imagination.


----------



## UberPasco

The funny thing is, when it finally becomes indisputably clear that the comprehensionally-challenged amongst us were unequivocally incorrect, they will then claim it is because they uncovered Amazon's dastardly plan and forced them to abandon it.
Or maybe they will figure out that asking an email question to support is the modern day equivalent of asking "The Magic 8 Ball" for advice. Perhaps.


----------



## Poolepit

UberPasco said:


> The funny thing is, when it finally becomes indisputably clear that the comprehensionally-challenged amongst us were unequivocally incorrect, they will then claim it is because they uncovered Amazon's dastardly plan and forced them to abandon it.
> Or maybe they will figure out that asking an email question to support is the modern day equivalent of asking "The Magic 8 Ball" for advice. Perhaps.


Why use such big words when it is obvious that only you and a few others here can actually read and comprehend them? It's like a foreign language to the rest of us ignorant peasants that never made it out of the 1st grade.


----------



## soupergloo

the only way to *really *prove if this is true is to place an order (maybe a 1-hour where just one driver will get the single delivery) with a specific tip amount and follow up with the driver the next day to see if the full tip was passed along.


----------



## grams777

Obfuscation and Concealment: The Keys to Understanding Your Pay - The Amazon Way.

That could make a catchy book title.


----------



## Poolepit

soupergloo said:


> the only way to *really *prove if this is true is to place an order (maybe a 1-hour where just one driver will get the single delivery) with a specific tip amount and follow up with the driver the next day to see if the full tip was passed along.


Think that already happened and was stated in an email to amazon either in this thread or another.



kmatt said:


>


Here it is.


----------



## courier

This was just posted in a facebook group, thought I'd share it here:

*"$397/22 hours = $18.045 I got $1 in tips in 22 hours. Only six of those hours did I deliver only fresh. 18 Prime now stops $1 in tips."*

This was probably a heck of a lot of driving too. Going to and from the warehouse racks up miles. At least with logistics you don't have to go back, and most likely you'll be done an hour ahead of time. Not sure what city/state this person works in.


----------



## WMUber

Poolepit said:


> Think that already happened and was stated in an email to amazon either in this thread or another.
> 
> Here it is.


Per federal labor laws, 100% of tips belong to the worker. So legally, they are not taking your tips. You need to press them on the base pay. They may be operating a Tip Credit in violation of state laws.


----------



## Poolepit

Poolepit said:


> Well technically we are keeping all of our tips according to amazon. They just randomly decided to start paying us less than the $18/hour base pay without letting anyone know about it pretty much.
> 
> Did a couple of 2 hour WH blocks the other day. One had 6 stops one had 7 stops for 13 stops total. Made exactly $44 on each, so $16 in tips on 13 stops. Back in the day these blocks would have been a guaranteed $50-$60 each easy if not more.


Posted that a few days ago in this thread.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> Per federal labor laws, 100% of tips belong to the worker. So legally, they are not taking your tips. You need to press them on the base pay. They may be operating a Tip Credit in violation of state laws.


'In order for the FLSA's minimum wage and overtime provisions to apply to a worker, the worker must be an "employee" of the employer, meaning that an employment relationship must exist between the worker and the employer.'

https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs13.pdf



courier said:


> This was just posted in a facebook group, thought I'd share it here:
> 
> *"$397/22 hours = $18.045 I got $1 in tips in 22 hours. Only six of those hours did I deliver only fresh. 18 Prime now stops $1 in tips."*
> 
> This was probably a heck of a lot of driving too. Going to and from the warehouse racks up miles. At least with logistics you don't have to go back, and most likely you'll be done an hour ahead of time. Not sure what city/state this person works in.
> 
> View attachment 110842
> View attachment 110843


Only 18 prime now stops in 16 hours (22-6)? There should be at least about 4 stops per hour on prime now (except one hours). 18 stops for that many hours seems very low. In any case, it would still imply at least a few $ per hour of tips are applied to the hourly minimum.


----------



## WMUber

grams777 said:


> 'In order for the FLSA's minimum wage and overtime provisions to apply to a worker, the worker must be an "employee" of the employer, meaning that an employment relationship must exist between the worker and the employer.'


That's why I posted earlier that if Amazon is operating a Tip Credit compensation structure, they may be held accountable for employee misclassification. As an independent contractor, you work for a "Contracted" rate agreed upon prior to working. Tips are 100% yours.

It's time to file a labor board claim in your state.


----------



## grams777

WMUber said:


> That's why I posted earlier that if Amazon is operating a Tip Credit compensation structure, they may be held accountable for employee misclassification. As an independent contractor, you work for a "Contracted" rate agreed upon prior to working. Tips are 100% yours.
> 
> It's time to file a labor board claim in your state.


That's probably the best bet. Go after the misclassification as an IC instead of employee. That opens up all kinds of things. The flex gig with amazon to me seems much more employee like than even uber or lyft. About the only thing you decide on flex is if you want a block or not. After you agree to the hours they basically own you and your car for that time.

Although there's already an existing case that Amazon has the upper hand in:
_Rittmann v. Amazon.com Inc.

https://www.bna.com/amazon-wins-hold-n57982085657/_

A federal district court in the state of Washington March 22 put on hold a lawsuit in which drivers that Amazon classifies as independent contractors allege they're actually employees protected by federal and state wage laws.

Posted at:
https://uberpeople.net/threads/amazon-wins-hold-in-delivery-drivers'-pay-lawsuit.155588/


----------



## Woohaa

sofla11 said:


> Tipping culture seems to be different in Europe. Many tipping professions here are paid around $2/hr because tips are most of their pay. So in general people here feel more obligated to tip. In Europe most tipped employees receive a base wage that is expected to be the majority of their pay, tips are just extra.


Yeah, tipping culture is different outside the US. I was at a casino in Spain on vacation years ago and won a nice sum on a hand. I tipped the dealer a few bucks and he looked shocked then excitedly exclaimed "I LOVE AMERICANS!" which of course caused me to lol.


----------



## observer

Placebo17 said:


> If all this is true, it's really disappointing. Especially from such a huge company like amazon.


Amazon is a terrible company to its employees, why would it treat its "independent contractors" any better?


----------



## Shangsta

Poolepit said:


> Still blows my mind that the majority of drivers I have talked to in person and on here have noticed a large paycut since around the same time or a little before (as stated above) with no real explanation from amazon. Yet other fellow drivers who have taken the same cut defend amazon and question our intelligence level. Unbelievable.
> 
> If you guys need me I'll be busy trying to comprehend reading.


It's like people who call uber drivers whiners who miss the days of 20 percent commision and two dollars a mile.


----------



## jester121

Or people who agree to an extremely clear contract that says they are ICs, not employees, and then piss and moan and file lawsuits over being treated like ICs instead of employees.


----------



## uberbomber

I'm LOVING this! I'm glad Amazon is finally screwing everyone.


----------



## kmatt

It might be interesting for us to ask to opt out of the variable based pay system and request the base pay plus tips again.


----------



## Poolepit

uberbomber said:


> I'm LOVING this! I'm glad Amazon is finally screwing everyone.


Do the world a favor and rid yourself from it.


----------



## Basmati

Basmati said:


> I just spoke to the leadership at my warehouse about the tips. I was flat out told that they are using the tips to subsidize the base hourly.


----------



## marioramirez1973

Then Sue , cause you have proof and it's illegal .


----------



## UberPasco

Basmati said:


> Basmati said: ↑
> I just spoke to the leadership at my warehouse about the tips. I was flat out told that they are using the tips to subsidize the base hourly.


Bullspit. But I appreciate your efforts to thin the herd regardless.


----------



## Basmati

UberPasco said:


> Bullspit. But I appreciate your efforts to thin the herd regardless.


I'm not bsing. Believe what you want tho.


----------



## grams777

I don't know why people think this is being made up. I got the email also straight from Amazon as well. I've attached a screen shot of part of it straight from my phone that I received from them directly.

The burden of proof is on those saying this email doesn't mean what it says. Just because some people don't notice it or are not affected by it doesn't disapprove it.

Amazon has stated in this email that they can pay you whatever they want as their portion as long as in total you get 100% of tips and the total you get at least equals to the block amount.

They're telling you that the base portion that they pay toward your hourly guarantee can be less than the hourly guarantee.

That's why they say in the second step they may have to add more to get up to the minimum. If they were just adding 18-25 per hour to tips, there would be no second step.

If they were just changing it to pay 18-25 per hour plus tips, they would just say that. There would be one step: Amazon adds the variable block amount to tips - period. That's not what they said. It would have been very simple to say that.

Also, Amazon will flat out refuse to tell you that you are always getting the hourly minimum plus tips. They will refuse to tell you how much your tips in total were for any block or time period. If they're paying the minimum plus tips why wouldn't they simply confirm it? Try just asking Amazon that simple question.

Base pay is not the minimum hourly. They're two different things.

They're not saying that the block dollar amount minimum changing is something new. The hourly minimum has always been variable.

Maybe at some warehouses and blocks it's different. But that doesn't mean anything except it's variable.

In the commitment section, all Amazon says is you will get 100% of tips and you will get at least 18-25 period. They don't say that they will always contribute the 18-25 per hour plus tips. Where does it say that?

'Including' tips does not mean they are always adding the hourly amount to them.

This is the email exactly except where I highlighted:











Hello,

Thank you for contacting Amazon Flex.

Since the launch of Amazon Flex in 2015, delivery partners have always earned our commitment of $18-$25 per hour, including 100% of customer tips. To ensure we met our commitment as the program launched, we applied a fixed base of $18 per hour, regardless of volume or region, and passed 100% of tips along to delivery partners.

*You may have noticed some changes recently with the introduction of variable base earnings.* *Variable base earnings is the portion of the total earnings paid directly by Amazon to delivery partners. A part of the variable base is determined before a block starts and is calculated based on the duration of the delivery block and any increases to meet spikes in customer demand. After the block is complete, we add any supplemental earnings required to meet our commitment that delivery partners earn $18-$25 per hour. *

Our earnings commitment to delivery partners has not changed-delivery partners still earn $18-$25 per hour including 100% of customer tips and you will never earn less than the minimum amount shown when accepting a block. In fact, average delivery partner earnings for tipped deliveries are over $20 per hour.

We have investigated your account and confirmed the earnings you received are correct.

Best regards,
Eric N.
Thank you.
*The Amazon Flex Team*


----------



## Poolepit

So yeah idgaf what anyone says that tries to say something isn't up at this point. Did 3 consecutive WH blocks 8-10, 10-12, and 12-2 yesterday. Had 14 stops total all to the nicest parts of San Diego. Last block had 6 stops and 21 items total in La Jolla. Made $40, 37, 37. I find it impossible to believe I made $6 in tips in 14 stops.

Day before I did a 3 hour hot wheels block with only 1 delivery where the lady said she just started using prime now and put the $5 tip on the app and asked it that was ok and I said of course, thank you. Got paid $54 for that block so it was showing no tip. I do believe they put my tips from WH blocks yesterday towards the $54 block they paid me that I only got 1 delivery on.

WH blocks are simply not worth it money wise with the miles and wear and tear on the vehicle if amazon is applying our tips toward our hourly. Also saw where they started charging on restaurant orders that aren't over $40. Idk how long they have been doing that but thought all restaraunt orders used to be free.


----------



## grams777

Poolepit said:


> So yeah idgaf what anyone says that tries to say something isn't up at this point. Did 3 consecutive WH blocks 8-10, 10-12, and 12-2 yesterday. Had 14 stops total all to the nicest parts of San Diego. Last block had 6 stops and 21 items total in La Jolla. Made $40, 37, 37. I find it impossible to believe I made $6 in tips in 14 stops.
> 
> Day before I did a 3 hour hot wheels block with only 1 delivery where the lady said she just started using prime now and put the $5 tip on the app and asked it that was ok and I said of course, thank you. Got paid $54 for that block so it was showing no tip. I do believe they put my tips from WH blocks yesterday towards the $54 block they paid me that I only got 1 delivery on.
> 
> WH blocks are simply not worth it money wise with the miles and wear and tear on the vehicle if amazon is applying our tips toward our hourly. Also saw where they started charging on restaurant orders that aren't over $40. Idk how long they have been doing that but thought all restaraunt orders used to be free.


With 14 stops, it is almost impossible that tips would be less than an average of $3 per stop. I used to easily average $4 and up per stop. To be conservative, figure you should have had at least $42 in tips. Instead you got $6 extra. So for 6 hours, that implies that amazon only chipped in about $12 per hour.

New Amazon math:
Amazon paid $12 x 6 hours = 72
+ Tips: $42
= $114 Total for 6 hours

Old math:
Amazon paid $18 x 6 = $108
+ Tips: $42
= $150 total for 6 hours

In reality, I expect that tips are even higher than $3 average per stop. For 6 hours, I would be closer to $175-$200 total pay with tips. So amazon may only be chipping in closer to $10 per hour as the variable base pay in your example.


----------



## UberPasco

yeah,but


----------



## WMUber

Has anybody gone down the path to force Amazon to reveal the breakdown? We know that Amazon ignores the third request emails. Has anybody sent a certified letter? Has anybody done the two-pronged approach of their state's labor board and small claims court? (Labor board for misclassification - you can not apply a tip credit to an independent contractor/Small claims court for failure to pay the contracted amount.)

As for me, I live in a California, a state that does not allow for tip credit. My tips have fallen inline with expectations. My motivation to get an answer is to show that Amazon is not applying a tip credit to hourly pay. Since I do not feel I have an issue, I have no desire to press this all the way.

That said, it may take the power of subpoena to get the data released. If you feel you are being short-changed, file the claims. But until someone goes the distance, all of this is speculation.

P.S. When demanding the breakout from Amazon, the key is to focus on the "Base Pay". Amazon is paying you 100% of your tips. The issue may be that Amazon is illegally applying the tips to your base pay, thus paying you less than the contracted amount.


----------



## grams777

UberPasco said:


> yeah,but
> View attachment 111900


It's variable. Each warehouse and block can be different. One might have base pay of $10 on an $18 minimum. You might have $16 or $18 base on an $18 minimum. I might have a $14 base on an $18 minimum in my first block then an $18 base on an $18 minimum the next. Someone else like soupergloo might have a $20 base on a $20 minimum. So her blocks pay good.



WMUber said:


> Has anybody gone down the path to force Amazon to reveal the breakdown? We know that Amazon ignores the third request emails. Has anybody sent a certified letter? Has anybody done the two-pronged approach of their state's labor board and small claims court? (Labor board for misclassification - you can not apply a tip credit to an independent contractor/Small claims court for failure to pay the contracted amount.)
> 
> As for me, I live in a California, a state that does not allow for tip credit. My tips have fallen inline with expectations. My motivation to get an answer is to show that Amazon is not applying a tip credit to hourly pay. Since I do not feel I have an issue, I have no desire to press this all the way.
> 
> That said, it may take the power of subpoena to get the data released. If you feel you are being short-changed, file the claims. But until someone goes the distance, all of this is speculation.
> 
> P.S. When demanding the breakout from Amazon, the key is to focus on the "Base Pay". Amazon is paying you 100% of your tips. The issue may be that Amazon is illegally applying the tips to your base pay, thus paying you less than the contracted amount.


It's not speculation. It's what Amazon actually said. All it is is that some people are affected differently because it's a variable base pay system. Your tips are in line with expectations. So are some others. Your warehouse blocks have a higher base then. Others do not. If anything it's speculation that Amazon is doing something different than what they said.

Even Poolepit gave an example of being told he got a $5 tip which did not pass through added to the minimum. This was a single delivery block. Where did that tip go? That's not speculation unless the facts are not being stated correctly.

What about the other examples in this thread such as 14 stops and $6 in tips in 6 hours of blocks.

I'd say there's almost no hope of getting anything from amazon by threat. I posted elsewhere they're already fighting flex drivers in court tooth and nail and winning. The labor board and lawsuits have essentially no chance based on where the existing litigation already is.


----------



## uberbomber

UberPasco said:


> Bullspit. But I appreciate your efforts to thin the herd regardless.


Except he's not lying...


----------



## Poolepit

UberPasco said:


> yeah,but
> View attachment 111900


Just because your location or WH hasn't stated using it yet doesn't mean it isn't happening to others. I live in one of the nicest cities in the country, I refuse to believe that people just tip better wherever you are and there isn't an issue. Can't wait for when it happens to you and you come here finally believeing and caring about the issue. Your earnings look like all of ours used to.


----------



## UberPasco

Poolepit said:


> Just because your location or WH hasn't stated using it yet doesn't mean it isn't happening to others. I live in one of the nicest cities in the country, I refuse to believe that people just tip better wherever you are and there isn't an issue. Can't wait for when it happens to you and you come here finally believeing and caring about the issue. Your earnings look like all of ours used to.


Uhmm, I was one of the first to question the drop in tips two months ago, right after Valentines day. Tips had slowly dropped in Jan, picked up a little, then I had a few blocks with very low (or no) tips. We have all seen it in our area. We compare earnings for the same blocks. Some of us can accurately predict shitty routes, though sometimes we are surprised.
Earlier in the thread there was a rational discussion of the most likely causes. Re-read it and see if it doesn't make more sense than 'The Man' screwing you by randomly deciding to pay you $9/hr one block and apparently $25/hr the next. Because in consecutive blocks I made $41 for 7 deliveries and $63 for 8 deliveries.
Am I happy that the average WH tips/hr have gone down from nearly $12 to just approaching $7? Nope. But I know that when I deliver laundry detergent, toilet paper, and cat litter to an assisted living facility or 6 cases of soda to a student apartment complex, it's going to be closer to ZERO.


----------



## WMUber

grams777 said:


> It's variable. Each warehouse and block can be different. One might have base pay of $10 on an $18 minimum. You might have $16 or $18 base on an $18 minimum. I might have a $14 base on an $18 minimum in my first block then an $18 base on an $18 minimum the next. Someone else like soupergloo might have a $20 base on a $20 minimum. So her blocks pay good.
> 
> It's not speculation. It's what Amazon actually said. All it is is that some people are affected differently because it's a variable base pay system. Your tips are in line with expectations. So are some others. Your warehouse blocks have a higher base then. Others do not. If anything it's speculation that Amazon is doing something different than what they said.
> 
> Even Poolepit gave an example of being told he got a $5 tip which did not pass through added to the minimum. This was a single delivery block. Where did that tip go? That's not speculation unless the facts are not being stated correctly.
> 
> What about the other examples in this thread such as 14 stops and $6 in tips in 6 hours of blocks.
> 
> I'd say there's almost no hope of getting anything from amazon by threat. I posted elsewhere they're already fighting flex drivers in court tooth and nail and winning. The labor board and lawsuits have essentially no chance based on where the existing litigation already is.


Again, what you are posting is only speculation that Amazon is applying a Tip Credit. Until a document from Amazon is produced that either outlines a tip credit policy or a driver's statement, it will remain speculation.

That said, grams777, Tennessee is a nasty Tip Credit state. Tennessee allows for the Federal base pay for hourly tipped employees of $2.13. On the flip side, Tennessee is actively enforcing employee misclassification. One of the tenants of being an IC is "Determines own price for contracted services". If Amazon is operating a tip credit compensation program without your consent to the rates, you are a misclassified employee.

As I have written in many posts, the only way we will know for sure if Amazon is applying our tips to the hourly rate may be through a state's labor board. If Amazon is breaking the law, they cannot hide behind an arbitration agreement.


----------



## Poolepit

I just posted that I did 3 large routes Monday to some of the nicest homes and areas of San Diego for 3 consecutive 2 hour blocks. These routes used to guarantee $150 and that would have been not that good. Used to be closer to $180 for these 6 hours. Never would it have ever been less than $120. I knew if my pay was very low then on these blocks this should be a good indication. Not to mention the 3 hour HW block where the first time user who was very appreciative, said she put $5 on the app and is that ok. I said of course, thank you. I could tell she was sincere and concerned over what she needed to do, yet the tip didn't show up. So where is it?

Only thing I can think of is the sudden increase in hot wheel blocks where I may only get one order or not any? Do you do many hotwheels blocks like that? If not they may not feel the need to subsidize your tips to make up for the HW block you got paid to sit there.

The fact that your earnings look normal still and you are defending amazon isn't surprising though.

Thank you to whichever mod restored old post.


----------



## UberPasco

Poolepit said:


> I just posted that I did 3 large routes Monday to some of the nicest homes and areas of San Diego for 3 consecutive 2 hour blocks. These routes used to guarantee $150 and that would have been not that good. Used to be closer to $180 for these 6 hours. Never would it have ever been less than $120. I knew if my pay was very low then on these blocks this should be a good indication. Not to mention the 3 hour HW block where the first time user who was very appreciative, said she put $5 on the app and is that ok. I said of course, thank you. I could tell she was sincere and concerned over what she needed to do, yet the tip didn't show up. So where is it?
> 
> Only thing I can think of is the sudden increase in hot wheel blocks where I may only get one order or not any? Do you do many hotwheels blocks like that? If not they may not feel the need to subsidize your tips to make up for the HW block you got paid to sit there.
> 
> The fact that your earnings look normal still and you are defending amazon isn't surprising though.
> 
> Thank you to whichever mod restored old post.


Yes, HW blocks skew horribly south. At first you think "This is great! I'm getting paid $72 to read a book", then you rapidly realize you are missing out on money and avoid them like the plaque. My last 24 hrs HW have averaged less than $20.50/ hr. And that is probably 25 deliveries. PLUS they are scheduling less drivers recently and making you run in circles.


----------



## WMUber

Poolepit said:


> I just posted that I did 3 large routes Monday to some of the nicest homes and areas of San Diego for 3 consecutive 2 hour blocks. These routes used to guarantee $150 and that would have been not that good. Used to be closer to $180 for these 6 hours. Never would it have ever been less than $120. I knew if my pay was very low then on these blocks this should be a good indication. Not to mention the 3 hour HW block where the first time user who was very appreciative, said she put $5 on the app and is that ok. I said of course, thank you. I could tell she was sincere and concerned over what she needed to do, yet the tip didn't show up. So where is it?
> 
> Only thing I can think of is the sudden increase in hot wheel blocks where I may only get one order or not any? Do you do many hotwheels blocks like that? If not they may not feel the need to subsidize your tips to make up for the HW block you got paid to sit there.
> 
> The fact that your earnings look normal still and you are defending amazon isn't surprising though.
> 
> Thank you to whichever mod restored old post.


Here is reality. California in not a Tip Credit state and illegally applying one would make us misclassified employees. As I said before, Amazon cannot hide behind an arbitration agreement if they break the law. I do find it interesting, that since in California Amazon cannot legally apply tips to any hourly compensation, that they still resist supplying a base pay plus tip breakout. Then again, by doing it in non-tip credit states but not in tip credit states would be even more suspicious.

I do find it interesting that only the San Diego Facebook group is vocal about this. That means one of two things: 1) Amazon is experimenting in San Diego with a questionable tip credit system, or 2) San Diego drivers have been drinking too much Mexican tap water.

Again, you are only speculating that they are applying a tip credit. If you truly believe Amazon is doing this, then do what I recommend. Take them to The State of California Labor & Workforce Development Agency (LWDA) or your local small claim court. They cannot hide behind an arbitration clause if they are breaking the law.



UberPasco said:


> Yes, HW blocks skew horribly south. At first you think "This is great! I'm getting paid $72 to read a book", then you rapidly realize you are missing out on money and avoid them like the plaque. My last 24 hrs HW have averaged less than $20.50/ hr. And that is probably 25 deliveries. PLUS they are scheduling less drivers recently and making you run in circles.


Restaurant blocks should increase after this week (Spring Break, Easter, Passover). Yes you get less money; but your workload is less. No carrying cases of water up flights of stairs. Less miles on the car. Many restaurants will sell you dinner at the Amazon 30% discount. So yes, you may earn only $20.00 an hour, but you only put 5 miles on your car, and only had to deliver a 3-pound item. That said with the new fee structure, tips will be dramatically reduced. (I averaged $3.00 tip per restaurant delivery. - Single woman ordering $20.00 in food = $$1.00 to 2.00/Dad treating his family or buddies for Pizza = $5.00 to $10.00/College students = $0.00)


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## grams777

Lyft has been openly applying tips to guarantees and incentives for years everywhere.

Major class action lawsuits have been launched against Uber, Lyft, and Amazon. All have failed to achieve employee classification.

---
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
_---_


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## WMUber

grams777 said:


> Lyft has been openly applying tips to guarantees and incentives for years.
> 
> Major class action lawsuits have been launched against Uber, Lyft, and Amazon. All have failed to achieve employee classification.


Lyft - The guarantees and incentives are not the "Fare" you contracted to drive. They are incentive bonuses (i.e. complete X number of rides per hour and maintain XX% acceptance rate and we will increase your earnings by $Y). Bonuses are discretionary, whereas wages and contracts are not. Now if Lyft reduced your fare payout buy the tip, then they would run afoul of the law.

And yes, Amazon has lost labor lawsuits. Why do you think drivers are capped at eight hours a day/forty hours a week? They got sued for overtime and lost.

As I said, if you believe Amazon is operating a tip credit compensation program, take them to the labor board or file a small claims case. The former is free, the latter is $100.00 +/-. Shit, Amazon may settle your $1,500.00 small claims case just to make you go away.

So shit or get off the pot. Either file a claim or lawsuit and subpoena the proof, or accept what they pay you. But doing nothing and and posting speculation doesn't do anybody any good.


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## Basmati

I think the issue is more complex than them just applying a "tip credit". They are definitely paying us less based on the tips we receive, but they are not applying any "tip credit". They are simply paying us a variable hourly rate which is almost always much less than $18 an hour. They flat out refuse to tell us exactly what the base rate is that we receive for any given shift tho. I'm sure it is still at least the standard minimum wage for any given state, which is well below $18 per hour. I'm sure they consulted with lawyers on this issue and are within required guidelines regarding pay. 
I have spoken to the head of the leadership team at my warehouse. He explained exactly what Amazon is doing. He verbally admitted that our base pay is always lower than $18 an hour now when we receive tips.

To all the people saying to provide proof that our pay has been reduced as a result of Amazon paying us less, I challenge you to provide proof otherwise. Simply get Amazon to tell what base hourly rate they paid you on any tipped shift.


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## grams777

So far there has been discussion showing examples of tips being applied. The emails from Amazon allow it in its own wording . I think it takes more speculation to say it's not happening.

But, this forum is for discussion. It's not a place for one persons opinion to be the law and to tell everyone else to file a lawsuit or stop talking. Posting a persons view is allowed and can bring light to an issue. Speculation is in the eye of the beholder.

The whole point of the thread per the OP is to discuss what is happening to tips and whether they are being applied.

I'd like to see more examples like where someone has shown a tip amount and it didn't show up - Or someone doing 10 stops and not getting any tips. Or if somebody makes some progress with Amazon getting a breakdown of earnings. Or if someone has something additional to say that hasn't been already hashed out here.

In any case, let's move on from repeating in loops what's been said already and stick closer to the original topic.

If someone wants to branch out and further explore whether the tips issue affects employee classification, labor boards, federal and state wage laws, arbitration, and lawsuits, it would be better organized to open a new topic for that large of a subject.


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## grams777

Found this unanswered request to the official Amazon Help account on Twitter:











__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/852191475123322882


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## UberPasco

He looks grumpy.


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## grams777

See the following post from another thread as an example of a tip confirmed with a customer but not added to drivers advertised block rate:

... he .... showed a screenshot with the $2 tip included. I never received that $2 from Amazon.

https://uberpeople.net/threads/i-made-7-prime-now-deliveries-3-50-tip.166359/#post-2477292


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## sonicfruits

Been a little while since I checked this thread, When people first started complaining at my warehouse I did not see a difference myself, than I had to do an update to the app...And bam!! It started happening to me, same thing as everyone else! Whole blocks no tips or very low tips, same stupid email responses from support and yes wish I had checked this thread but I was already asking them what the base pay was...Anyway my last email to them was something like "what you are doing is illegal" etc..."How do you expect a driver to accept a block with out knowing what the base pay is" But I also said I wont buy from a company who treats employees and contractors like this, I did not drive for a month and I did not buy anything from Amazon for a month (man that was hard lol), Recently I did a couple of blocks again to see if anything changed, one driver said he thinks things have gone back to normal but not from what I saw..and not from what several others drivers said..I also saw a lot of new drivers....I had one block that paid like the old days, got my hopes up but all the rest were crap...Anyway I agree a better way to attack is make everything public and let the customers know what is going on..I try to spend my money with companies who treat people right..many feel the same. Some just don't care..usually find them at Walmart.

I do think there is some validity to frequent shoppers tipping less, more fresh orders (but they have now been separated). and Amazon focusing more on lower income areas...Our warehouse has also really jacked up the prime deliveries lately, spacing them all over geographically, missing pkg's, getting you out of the warehouse 30 minutes late (making it hard to get back to do another block) and generally making it a challenge to get everything done in time

I think it would also be very effective if everyone stopped accepting blocks until we know what the base pay is up front, but of course there will be a hundred new drivers ready to take our place, While there did seem to be some preference for long time drivers getting blocks, hard to say... Anyway it is nothing new happening here, high earning long tenured employees have been getting pushed out of companies for decades so new cheaper labor can be brought it, Some like Enterprise base there whole model on that...We use to scream about training costs for new employees but now companies eliminated training, does not cost much to make someone look at 5 minute videos...

Amazon needs to remember happy employees/contractors make even happier customers. I do not think drivers are asking too much to know what the base pay is up front for a block before accepting it, and a clear breakdown of base plus tips..that's basic stuff man, Really makes no sense to accept a block not knowing what you are going to be paid before tips


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## Solo1

[QUOTE="sonicfruits, post: 2482873, member: Really makes no sense to accept a block not knowing what you are going to be paid before tips[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to through shade, but IMHO, you know your base pay ... $18 ... You will get that much no matter what ... Stop basing your life on tips, they are not guaranteed anywhere ... My full time big is in the service industry and I've had people say I performed the best service they ever had ( stop being perverted ) and still didn't get a tip ... You can't base your bills off money that's not definitive ... It's great if you get it but not everyone tips.


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## Keyser Söze

This has nothing to do with people not tipping. It has to do with Amazon taking the tips and counting them towards your base, instead of adding the tips TO your base.


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## grams777

I decided to try a couple days in the last two weeks to see what the block payouts are now. What I am seeing is terrible compared to what it was before February.

I did several blocks spread out at different times and days. They were very similar to what I did before except now the pay is even lower.

Here's what I found with $18 / hr blocks:

3 hours (a 2 hour and a 1 hour) in isolated blocks with 1 delivery in each hour paid exactly $19 each hour (previously $23). Did they all really tip $1 rather than the default $5? Or did amazon apply the difference?

3 x 1 hour deliveries (1 hr block plus 2 hr block) now at exactly $19 per hour or $1 tip?
















In February a one hour block with 1 delivery (18+5 about as expected):









Here is the default prime now order screen tip setting of $5:










Two hour blocks about $50 (previously $60-70),

Three hour blocks about $72 (previously 85-100).

The $19 one stop one hour deliveries are very interesting. Either those people each tipped $1 or they tipped the default $5 and amazon applied $4 of it. The last one hour block I did in February before this was $23 ($18 plus $5 default).

*So based on these observations, it would appear in Nashville at least, that the hourly base is about $14 per hour with the first $4 of tips per hour going toward the $18 minimum.*

Are people tipping drastically and uniformly less? I doubt it. I even had one guy who was so appreciative he gave me $7 in cash for a tip on top of what he said he was tipping in the app.


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## Basmati

This week I have done 18 hours of Prime Now in Miami. During those 18 hours I have had 29 stops. For all those hours I only go paid above $18 / hour for one shift, where I received a whopping $1.50 extra. In Miami they are drastically reducing base pay depending on the tips you make.


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## grams777

I think the lower pay is having some effect on drivers here. During the last few weeks I've seen one hour blocks like the above sit unclaimed for several minutes and often expire without being taken.

This isn't even found by checking all the time or fishing. This is just checking at periodic times during the day. It used to be these would all be gone in milliseconds by the team of drivers sitting at the warehouse constantly fishing.

Basically the one delivery one hour blocks will have almost no chance of going over about $19 per hour. But often there will be quite a few miles on the car. You're still going the distance to a general area where you might have done a 7-10 stop two hour block where tips can cause you to exceed the $18 per hour somewhat.

*One of the keys to survival now would be to focus on blocks where there are enough stops to significantly exceed the tips being allocated to the hourly pay. Avoid any blocks that will not have at least about 3 stops per hour.*

The net pay per hour for one hour blocks ($8 per hour) is about half of a two hour ($15 per hour).

Example 1: Two one hour blocks driving 30 miles each hour x 2. Also include a half hour of dead time at end of each block. Pay = $28 base plus $10 tips less $15 car expenses = $23 or $8 per hour.

Example 2: One two hour block driving 50 miles with 7 stops. Also include half hour of dead time at end. Pay = $28 base plus $22 tips = $50. Less $12 car expenses = $38 or $15 per hour.


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## jester121

Sounds like time for Amazon to onboard some more suckers I mean drivers in Nashville....


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## uberer2016

I'm always curious what if there was an unusually large tip like $100+. Does Amazon give us the entire tip because I have never seen an overly large tip? I never got paid $100+ higher than the max suggested pay. I delivered to some super wealthy areas with ferraris outside so maybe I could have gotten at least one somewhere. 

Has anyone ever gotten paid $100+ over the suggested pay? like $150 for 2 hours?


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## UberPasco

Highest per hour for me was $96 for a 2 hr block. Highest block was 4hr $163.


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## grams777

I did $151 for a 3 hour once. But it was really like 4 hours because I got 2 regular routes in it and ran over my block end. Nowadays I can barely get to $25 per hour if I'm lucky.

When I went to check my earnings history I just happened to see another block sitting there for several minutes and then expire again. You used to never see this except for years ago when it first rolled out. The fishers are revolting:


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## grams777

In a new development, in my city Amazon is apparently taking more tips away depending on which shift you drive. When I calculate the tips per stop, there is a distinct pattern.

Normal 2 hour blocks here seem to use a base pay of $13 per hour with amazon absorbing the first $5 of tips for themselves.

The 2 pm - 4 pm shift however, is consistently showing a base pay of about $8 per hour - with the first $10 of tips going to Amazon.

For example, recently I had two hour blocks from 2-4 with 5 stops that only paid about $40. These same neighborhoods and stops usually average about $4 in tips per stop. If I do these same routes almost any other time they would pay in the $50 range.

So coincidentally either I only get $1 per stop in tips from 2-4 or Amazon absorbed $20 of the tips instead of the normal $10 per 2 hour block.

So you may want to keep track of areas, stops and block times and see if it's happening to you.


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## Flex89

I've thought this might be the case. Blocks on Friday and Saturday would be better than those worked mornings during the week. I've given feedback on the surveys to pay a straight base amount all the time. If it is $15, thats fine, but just make it consistent and transparent.


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## kmatt

The new base is $13 an hour when you receive enough tips. They take the first $5/hr in tips. That is obvious. What I don't understand is drivers picking up one hour blocks and delivering nothing and getting paid $27 or so dollars instead of $18.



Flex89 said:


> I've thought this might be the case. Blocks on Friday and Saturday would be better than those worked mornings during the week. I've given feedback on the surveys to pay a straight base amount all the time. If it is $15, thats fine, but just make it consistent and transparent.


Exactly.



Flex89 said:


> I've thought this might be the case. Blocks on Friday and Saturday would be better than those worked mornings during the week. I've given feedback on the surveys to pay a straight base amount all the time. If it is $15, thats fine, but just make it consistent and transparent.


Morning blocks are the hardest to get but pay the least.


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## grams777

kmatt said:


> The new base is $13 an hour when you receive enough tips. They take the first $5/hr in tips. That is obvious. What I don't understand is drivers picking up one hour blocks and delivering nothing and getting paid $27 or so dollars instead of $18.
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> Morning blocks are the hardest to get but pay the least.


The hardest blocks to get might be the ones amazon pays the least for. The ones that sit around and nobody wants and many forfeit like 4-6 pm seem to pay more (by passing though more tips).

I'd say definitely track all this. Some blocks we're getting closer to working for tips only.

There's no absolute proof since Amazon admits the practice but refuses to give an accounting; so, just track pay / tips per stop averages during different blocks and see what looks funny.

$27 sounds more like the 1.5 hour blocks. Here there's almost no way to break $18 per hour without a route. And even then you're going to be hard pressed to break $25.

I don't get the reason to keep it secret unless they know they're doing something wrong and don't want it getting out. If you want more drivers from 4-6 and fewer from 2-4 or whenever just spell it out. Plenty of jobs use base pay plus tips with minimum guarantees. None that I know of go to this extent to hide it.


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## xdgred

I was trying to verify that there weren't any shenanigans going on with the tipping option. I thought courier businesses might be pocketing the tips and paying drivers flat wages. It didn't even occur to me that Amazon might be ripping off tips directly. I don't mind tipping drivers but I have little interest in tipping a large corporation. When I give a tip, I want the person I am tipping to have more money. Should I just not pay a tip? Do you guys tend to get any benefit from tips? I am in Indianapolis if that makes a difference.


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## kmatt

xdgred said:


> I was trying to verify that there weren't any shenanigans going on with the tipping option. I thought courier businesses might be pocketing the tips and paying drivers flat wages. It didn't even occur to me that Amazon might be ripping off tips directly. I don't mind tipping drivers but I have little interest in tipping a large corporation. When I give a tip, I want the person I am tipping to have more money. Should I just not pay a tip? Do you guys tend to get any benefit from tips? I am in Indianapolis if that makes a difference.


The way it is now is that we receive $0.60 for every dollar tipped through the app. I would tip your courier cash instead. We greatly appreciate cash tips as it's tax free and Amazon doesn't get their greedy f*cking hands on your broke couriers money.


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## grams777

xdgred said:


> I was trying to verify that there weren't any shenanigans going on with the tipping option. I thought courier businesses might be pocketing the tips and paying drivers flat wages. It didn't even occur to me that Amazon might be ripping off tips directly. I don't mind tipping drivers but I have little interest in tipping a large corporation. When I give a tip, I want the person I am tipping to have more money. Should I just not pay a tip? Do you guys tend to get any benefit from tips? I am in Indianapolis if that makes a difference.


Just zero out the online tip and tip in cash. Depending on the area and time Amazon will siphon from $0 - $10 per hour of the drivers online tips and apply it toward the pay. Amazon should be ashamed of themselves.


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## kmatt

Now since Amazon is sending out scare tactics against tapping apps such as Frep that help us drive safe, we should post vids of us trying to manually pick up blocks while driving for flex and post the shit out of that on media platforms. You think texting and driving is dangerous? Try refreshing for a block while driving.


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## marsmaple

Can anything be done about this discrepancy, like mass DMing Amazon's senior management about this and make them issue an official statement about the percentage of tips we receive? Their own app states that drivers would receive 100% of the tips. See the attachment.


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## grams777

marsmaple said:


> Can anything be done about this discrepancy, like mass DMing Amazon's senior management about this and make them issue an official statement about the percentage of tips we receive? Their own app states that drivers would receive 100% of the tips. See the attachment.


You always get 100% of your tips. Amazon just uses part of them towards your $18 minimum per hour. It's called variable base pay. You get base pay + 100 % of your tips. So Amazon basically says because you get tips, we will chip in less.

So you get all your tips, but amazon lowers your base pay because of it. The net effect is the same as taking your tips but technically they don't. Support refuses to say how much your base pay is because of 'customer tip privacy'. It could be $8, $13, or $18 per hour. Usually I see what appears to be $13.


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## dkcs

kmatt said:


> Now since Amazon is sending out scare tactics against tapping apps such as Frep that help us drive safe, we should post vids of us trying to manually pick up blocks while driving for flex and post the shit out of that on media platforms. You think texting and driving is dangerous? Try refreshing for a block while driving.


You think refreshing for a block and driving is dangerous try secure shelling into your proxy bot and driving!



grams777 said:


> You always get 100% of your tips. Amazon just uses part of them towards your $18 minimum per hour. It's called variable base pay. You get base pay + 100 % of your tips. So Amazon basically says because you get tips, we will chip in less.
> 
> So you get all your tips, but amazon lowers your base pay because of it. The net effect is the same as taking your tips but technically they don't. Support refuses to say how much your base pay is because of 'customer tip privacy'. It could be $8, $13, or $18 per hour. Usually I see what appears to be $13.


I wonder if they do this in California as well since there are more rules corps generally have to follow here regarding workers. I had an issue when I first started where I couldn't make the deliveries (two Prime now Sprouts orders marked as undeliverable the next day when the app came back to life) and ended up only making two deliveries out of the scheduled four, working maybe 2.5 hours total. I still ended up getting $100 for the 4 hour block.


----------



## WMUber

dkcs said:


> You think refreshing for a block and driving is dangerous try secure shelling into your proxy bot and driving!
> 
> I wonder if they do this in California as well since there are more rules corps generally have to follow here regarding workers. I had an issue when I first started where I couldn't make the deliveries (two Prime now Sprouts orders marked as undeliverable the next day when the app came back to life) and ended up only making two deliveries out of the scheduled four, working maybe 2.5 hours total. I still ended up getting $100 for the 4 hour block.


California does not allow for the practice of "Tip Credit". States with a clear definition of "Independent Contractor" do not allow Tip Credit for independent contractors.

The only way to find out for sure if Amazon is using this practice in your state/city is to go through the court system or labor board. Regardless if Amazon is applying a tip credit, Amazon will not respond to requests for a detailed breakdown of your earnings. (They are hiding behind protecting customers.)

I am surprised after all this time nobody has gone the distance. Courts and labor boards have the power of subpoena. They can compel Amazon to produce the earnings detail. If Amazon is applying a Tip Credit to independent contractor hourly earnings, it is operating in a deep grey legal area. They may be allowed to continue in some states, but with the requisite that they produce an earnings statement that breaks out tips and hourly pay.


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## kmatt

I worked an 1.5 hr block and no deliveries until I placed my own prime now 1 hour order to my house. I left myself a tip of $12.27. Funny how 24 hours later in my earnings section I only received $30.27 for that block. Should have been $39.27 if we were getting paid $18 plus tips. They lowered their base pay to me by exactly $9. It looks like they take $3 for every 30 min of a block if you get tips from customers. I want everyone to add back this money and ask yourself if that's about the same money I used to make. It has nothing to do with block duration, demand, etc as Amazon likes to talk about in their vague ass explanation with no detail of adjustable based earnings. It's like working for the mafia at this point. I'd be livid pissed if I was a customer in the dark about this.


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## dkcs

As WMUber has posted I'm really surprised someone in California hasn't filed a class action against Amazon yet for doing this. Unless this practice isn't done in California. If I lived in a Prime Now area I'd give a shot doing exactly what you did and compile the evidence and look for a large firm to take on the case. As the complainant in a class action you are usually limited to $10k or $15k but that is still not bad for just letting a firm use your name.


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## grams777

kmatt said:


> I worked an 1.5 hr block and no deliveries until I placed my own prime now 1 hour order to my house. I left myself a tip of $12.27. Funny how 24 hours later in my earnings section I only received $30.27 for that block. Should have been $39.27 if we were getting paid $18 plus tips. They lowered their base pay to me by exactly $9. It looks like they take $3 for every 30 min of a block if you get tips from customers. I want everyone to add back this money and ask yourself if that's about the same money I used to make. It has nothing to do with block duration, demand, etc as Amazon likes to talk about in their vague ass explanation with no detail of adjustable based earnings. It's like working for the mafia at this point. I'd be livid pissed if I was a customer in the dark about this.


I had thought about doing that one day. Despite many people denying it, your block and order prove that the tip taking issue is real.

That's a little worse than I thought. I deduced it to be about $5 per hour, but it appears to be $6 - at least in your example. So the base pay is actually $12 per hour.

A more honest earnings advertisement would be: *$12 per hour plus tips* with $18 per hour guaranteed.

You got $18 for 1.5 hours ($12 per hour) plus the $12.27 tip = $30.27.

It could still be different in some markets and blocks. Here though, it's now almost impossible to ever see a tip unless you have a route.

In any case, $6 per hour of your tips effectively go into Amazon's pockets.

So: $6 per hour x 40 hours per week x 4.3 weeks per month = $ 1,040 of net profit per month is squeezed out of tips from each full time equivalent driver.


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## kmatt

So when we receive tips of more than $12 for a 2 hour block we technically get paid $12/hr in base pay instead of $18. What a bargain for Scamazon. They save even more money when we take one hours with our route.


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## dkcs

grams777 said:


> I had thought about doing that one day. Despite many people denying it, your block and order prove that the tip taking issue is real.
> 
> That's a little worse than I thought. I deduced it to be about $5 per hour, but it appears to be $6 - at least in your example. So the base pay is actually $12 per hour.
> 
> A more honest earnings advertisement would be: *$12 per hour plus tips* with $18 per hour guaranteed.
> 
> You got $18 for 1.5 hours ($12 per hour) plus the $12.27 tip = $30.27.
> 
> It could still be different in some markets and blocks. Here though, it's now almost impossible to ever see a tip unless you have a route.
> 
> In any case, $6 per hour of your tips effectively go into Amazon's pockets.
> 
> So: $6 per hour x 40 hours per week x 4.3 weeks per month = $ 1,040 of net profit per month is squeezed out of tips from each full time equivalent driver.


I would tend to think Amazon would use some kind of variable in deciding how much of a drivers tip they apply to the base. That way there isn't a clear established pattern...

I still want to know how I received $100 for a 4 hour block that I only made 2 of the 4 assigned deliveries on.

I highly doubt two different customers both tipped $14 each.


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## soupergloo

I don't understand how this whole "tip credit" bullshit is allowed in other states, but they don't do that in California.

To test it, I placed an order and my boyfriend working the block just happened to get my delivery on his route so I increased the tip to $50 to see if Amazon would pass it along and they did.


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## Flex89

Hopefully this whole behind the curtain pay gets exposed soon. But as corrupt as corporate america is, who knows.


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## OnlyInTheA

kmatt said:


> The new base is $13 an hour when you receive enough tips. They take the first $5/hr in tips. That is obvious. What I don't understand is drivers picking up one hour blocks and delivering nothing and getting paid $27 or so dollars instead of $18.


Hold on... when was the base pay reduced? And from previous posts im guessing this is not in every market?

This is crazy... I can't think of any tipped job where you're not allowed to see your tips. Time to start talking to some lawyers huh?


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## grams777

The easiest way to tell is just look at the blocks where you only do 1 stop per hour. Before Amazon started taking tips they would usually be close to $23 per hour for a one hour package in a one hour block (18+5).

These days, I have seen the earnings screen of other drivers as well as my own for these types of blocks. Only one time out of maybe 20 blocks did I see a payout over $18 per hour and it was $1 over. Otherwise everything that is not a route will pay $18 since the first tip is pocketed by amazon. If you’re stuck at $18 per hour in blocks doing one stop per hour, then your tips are getting siphoned.

Normally you would see some tips. They will vary but could average around $5 - the default tip on the order screen.


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## Compper

This past weekend I had a 2 hour Fresh block with 3 deliveries. Each delivery only had about 3-4 bags. After the implementation of tips for Fresh a while ago (thank goodness or else I wouldn't do them) - I got paid out $51 which was base $18x2 hours = $36 + 3x$5 tips = $51. 

Seems to be fine in the Miami market.


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## Basmati

Compper said:


> This past weekend I had a 2 hour Fresh block with 3 deliveries. Each delivery only had about 3-4 bags. After the implementation of tips for Fresh a while ago (thank goodness or else I wouldn't do them) - I got paid out $51 which was base $18x2 hours = $36 + 3x$5 tips = $51.
> 
> Seems to be fine in the Miami market.


It depends on which platform you work. They just added tips to Fresh, and I agree that they don't seem to be skimming off Fresh tips yet. Might change soon though. Right now in Miami, Fresh is definitely the most lucrative blocks. They are without a doubt skimming tips off the Prime Now blocks.


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## jester121

Fresh here is an extra $15/mo, is it the same everywhere? 

I don't think people are going to tip on top of being charged monthly for the service, at least not for long. They might tip the first few times, but after that.....


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## Flex Factot

jester121 said:


> Fresh here is an extra $15/mo, is it the same everywhere?
> 
> I don't think people are going to tip on top of being charged monthly for the service, at least not for long. They might tip the first few times, but after that.....


Some drivers may already know this but just in case you don't. If you happen to be doing what is known as a recovery block that was supposed to be delivered earlier and you got pinged the route you will not be getting any tips whatsoever. Amazon does not tell the driver this, they just hide behind the 18.00 an hour base pay and could care less about your tips. Also, if you are just 1 second late you can kiss any tip goodbye.


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## bacchustod

It's interesting. I only do restaurant delivery now because tips are much better and you don't get screwed into diving half way across the earth for nothing. A couple of weeks ago I had back to back 4hr restaurant deliveries shifts on Sat and Sun. My payouts for those shifts were 119.25 and 108.5. On Thursday and Friday of the following week I had back to back 4hr prime deliveries. My payouts for those shifts were 77 (8 stops) and 83 (7 stops). The mileage on my car for the Prime deliveries was around 300, while the restaurants was less than 100. I hope they keep the restaurant deliveries in Columbus, it seems to be more lucrative here with much less wear on you car...especially if we're not receiving an accurate payout of what we're earning...


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## dkcs

Restaurant deliveries only here in LA for me as well.

They tip well (my best block is $130 for a 3.5 hour block, no tip allocation in California) are less stress in the warehouse area I work and are easy to deliver with about 5 stops in a 4 hour shift and no heavy packages!


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## jester121

dkcs said:


> They tip well (my best block is $130 for a 3.5 hour block, no tip allocation in California) are less stress in the warehouse area I work and are easy to deliver with about 5 stops in a 4 hour shift and no heavy packages!


Sheesh... How long can even Amazon keep hemorrhaging cash paying people that kind of money for 5 deliveries?


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## dkcs

I don't know but I'm going to cash in while I still can.

Last weekend in the UCA3 area there were multiple 2 hour restaurant blocks dropping at $29/hour plus tips with no takers. In LA, this gig is not life changing as it is in some other areas.

That one block was out of the norm as I had a $300 order going to a doctor who tipped well and Amazon didn't get to skim their share of it. Normally I make a solid $24 an hour for restaurant deliveries and it is easy as hell.


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