# Proposition 22 now five points away from 50% threshold with 25% undecided.



## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

"_With five weeks until the election, a poll released Tuesday indicates eight California ballot issues - including propositions that would help ride-sharing companies that employ contract workers and that would allow affirmative action in government decision-making - are on a path toward passage in November, but some of those initiatives could swing either way, political science experts say_." San Diego Union-Tribune










https://www.sandiegouniontribune.co...ornia-ballots-set-to-pass-in-general-election


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Gig companies better dump another 80 million dollars.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> Gig companies better dump another 80 million dollars.


please no. The TV ads I can fast forward through. The emails I can block. But the snail mail cards? Please no more.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> please no. The TV ads I can fast forward through. The emails I can block. But the snail mail cards? Please no more.


I have seen only one pro prop 22 ad and that was a text on one of my new phone numbers.

Other than that, zilch. Does anyone really watch TV anymore?


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> Does anyone really watch TV anymore?


well, I never, ever watch live TV. But, yes, some of us still use the boob tube for entertainment.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> well, I never, ever watch live TV. But, yes, some of us still use the boob tube for entertainment.


Neither do I. I haven't watched live TV in at least four years.

If they could just get rid of those damn Cooper Tire commercials on Youtube.

I googled Cooper Tires in July, bought a set a couple days later and I still get Cooper commercials every couple hours.

:rollseyes:


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

observer said:


> I have seen only one pro prop 22 ad and that was a text on one of my new phone numbers.
> 
> Other than that, zilch. Does anyone really watch TV anymore?


I've seen a few 22 Yes ads while streaming on YouTube.

Zero 22 No ads.



observer said:


> I googled Cooper Tires in July, bought a set a couple days later and I still get Cooper commercials every couple hours.


God that's creepy AF. I hate when that happens.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Johnny Mnemonic said:


> I've seen a few 22 Yes ads while streaming on YouTube.
> 
> Zero 22 No ads.
> 
> ...


It's more annoying than anything else. Almost makes me want to never buy another set of Coopers.

The other ad that bothers me is Honda and their stupid commercials.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

80% of the time, 100% of the people are clueless..


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)




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## ChillinLA (May 19, 2020)

"Prop 22 "guarantees" certain benefits, including completely undefined "assistance" with health care premiums and disability coverage for those injured on the job. To understand how inessential these benefits are, look only to the "minimum earnings" promise. Drivers are guaranteed an hourly wage at least 120 percent of the local minimum. But that only kicks in during time spent driving, while waiting for or getting to a ride or a delivery, which can be as much as 37 percent of the time spent on the job, remains uncompensated. When you factor in time on the clock that remains unpaid, the "guarantee" would yield a subminimum wage for most drivers. A UC Berkeley Labor Center study estimates the average wage under Prop 22 as low as $5.64 an hour, a drastic pay cut from the $13 minimum wage they would be guaranteed as employees.









*How Uber and Lyft Are Buying Labor Laws*
California's Prop 22 could set back labor standards, particularly for nonwhite workers, for decades.







prospect.org

At this point based on Uber's choice of wording of prop 22, anything else would be better than Uber


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ChillinLA said:


> California's Prop 22 could set back labor standards, particularly for nonwhite workers, for decades.


...how is AB5 better?


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## ChillinLA (May 19, 2020)

SHalester said:


> ...how is AB5 better?


Picking between Uber and the state of CA, of course I'd pick the state. But the big picture is far worse: 22 is showing the way to other corporations not only how they could shift the burden of employee's workers comp, health insurance and other benefits to the government, but it also legally creates a third group of workers who are going to be in a worse position than employees and independent contractors. This is a horrible step against labor in United States and its adverse effects will reverberate for many years to come.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

ChillinLA said:


> Picking between Uber and the state of CA, of course I'd pick the state. But the big picture is far worse: 22 is showing the way to other corporations not only how they could shift the burden of employee's workers comp, health insurance and other benefits to the government, but it also legally creates a third group of workers who are going to be in a worse position than employees and independent contractors. This is a horrible step against labor in United States and its adverse effects will reverberate for many years to come.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/prospect.org/api/amp/labor/how-uber-and-lyft-are-buying-labor-laws/


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## MikhailCA (Dec 8, 2019)

ChillinLA said:


> Picking between Uber and the state of CA, of course I'd pick the state. But the big picture is far worse: 22 is showing the way to other corporations not only how they could shift the burden of employee's workers comp, health insurance and other benefits to the government, but it also legally creates a third group of workers who are going to be in a worse position than employees and independent contractors. This is a horrible step against labor in United States and its adverse effects will reverberate for many years to come.


American dream is over, relax. Gross domestic product is reduced by 50% per person for the last 50years. With these circumstances there's gonna be some degrading in labor laws.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ChillinLA said:


> This is a horrible step against labor in United States and its adverse effects will reverberate for many years to come.


yeah, you really didn't say how AB5 is better. Kinda did a lot of dancing, tho. Good job on the dancing. Epic fail on the question.


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## Steve appleby (May 30, 2015)

Polls before election day don’t mean shit anymore. The only polls that matter are the ones on Election Day. Opinions always change.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

The problem with polls is that we have no idea how the people who block Phone calls coming in are going to answer.

I’ve had about 200 political calls this year. I haven’t talked to one person.

I’m also a registered republican because around here the republican primary is the important election.


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> The problem with polls is that we have no idea how the people who block Phone calls coming in are going to answer.
> 
> I've had about 200 political calls this year. I haven't talked to one person.


Got a ring on the land-line today from "political caller".


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## ChillinLA (May 19, 2020)

SHalester said:


> yeah, you really didn't say how AB5 is better. Kinda did a lot of dancing, tho. Good job on the dancing. Epic fail on the question.


 22 is not just about AB5. Uber is a large company, so were oil, and cigarette companies. Yet, 22 is out-spending them all, because 22 is about more. Once 22 is passed Gig companies, and future gig co. converts will emulate the play. Millions of workers could lose their benefits, becoming sub-IC, sub-employees so corporations such as softbank that bankroll Uber type co's could make $$ in creative new ways, (when unable to make money the old fashion way such as earning it, Instead change the laws)

Then again, i could be wrong and this could be all about nickels and dimes.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

ChillinLA said:


> 22 is not just about AB5. Uber is a large company, so were oil, and cigarette companies. Yet, 22 is out-spending them all, because 22 is about more. Once 22 is passed Gig companies, and future gig co. converts will emulate the play. Millions of workers could lose their benefits, becoming sub-IC, sub-employees so corporations such as softbank that bankroll Uber type co's could make $$ in creative new ways, (when unable to make money the old fashion way such as earning it, Instead change the laws)
> 
> Then again, i could be wrong and this could be all about nickels and dimes.


Gig companies are already talking about taking Prop 22 nationwide.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

The sad thing is that prop22 would result in a pay increase in Florida.

20c a minute 30c for _all miles_
VS
8c a minute
+53c a mile while there's a customer.

I'm not even joking, I think it could result in a significant pay increase for Orlando...

But then again a significant pay increase would lead to a significant customer price increase, which would lead to it being significantly easier to talk people into a taxi versus taking an uber.

choices choices.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> The sad thing is that prop22 would result in a pay increase in Florida.
> 
> 20c a minute 30c for _all miles_
> VS
> ...


Isn't minimum wage 8.56 an hour there?

You'd get around .17 per engaged minute.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

observer said:


> Isn't minimum wage 8.56 an hour there?
> 
> You'd get around .17 per engaged minute.


min wage increase is on the ballot as an initiative.

By the time a prop 22 thing would get pushed nation wide it will be in place.

Also i'd be truly truly shocked if the initiative to raise the min wage wasn't passed. Especially this year... way too many people with low wages to not pass.

Per engaged minute it would be.

$10/60 X 1.2

or

20c


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> min wage increase is on the ballot as an initiative.
> 
> By the time a prop 22 thing would get pushed nation wide it will be in place.
> 
> ...


I have to go back and reread Prop 22 but I kinda remember part of it says that after a couple years the rate disengages from minimum wage.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

observer said:


> I have to go back and reread Prop 22 but I kinda remember part of it says that after a couple years the rate disengages from minimum wage.


Yeah that's a great big FU to the drivers,

they also made it almost impossible to amend,

If nothing else ya'll need to vote no over those two points you just made.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> The sad thing is that prop22 would result in a pay increase in Florida.
> 
> 20c a minute 30c for _all miles_
> VS
> ...


Oh wait.... So raising the prices to be a bit more closer to taxis? Omg you could actually make decent money AND have your car maintenance paid for by the customer instead of the driver... Out of HIS PAY!?

THE NOTION.....


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## ChillinLA (May 19, 2020)

"As money-losing enterprises, Lyft's and Uber's futures are ambiguous. Their existence is predicated on subsidizing their product with venture capital and passing costs onto susceptible workers who get lured in before grasping these costs"

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion...op-22-No-free-rides-for-Uber-and-15626605.php


observer said:


> Gig companies are already talking about taking Prop 22 nationwide.


yep, Saudis and Softbank with a half a trillion dollar investment in Gig companies have created the worst proposition for labor in this country, and the sad part of it is that the very drivers that will be hurt by it the most, are planning to vote for it. smh.

Mandatory higher education anyone!? &#129335;‍♂


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

ChillinLA said:


> 22 is not just about AB5


that is just plain wrong on every level. It is ALL about AB5; without AB5 Prop 22 would not have been 'born'.

Still, still have not seen the reasons AB5 is better than Prop 22 or better than how things are currently. Crickets. As if nobody wants to defend AB5. Huh. &#129318;‍♂


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## ChillinLA (May 19, 2020)

SHalester said:


> that is just plain wrong on every level. It is ALL about AB5; without AB5 Prop 22 would not have been 'born'.
> 
> Still, still have not seen the reasons AB5 is better than Prop 22 or better than how things are currently. Crickets. As if nobody wants to defend AB5. Huh. &#129318;‍♂


Open up your mind young man, there is greater danger ahead


ChillinLA said:


> 22 is creating a third category of workers beneath employees and IC's, without any explicit benefits, just as Uber always said they wanted. Opening the door for other corporations to emulate, Uber's every step will be copied over and over to the detriment of all workers in US.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Fake-progressive-mailers-urge-yes-on-Uber-Lyft-15635173.php


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## KevinH (Jul 13, 2014)

SHalester said:


> that is just plain wrong on every level. It is ALL about AB5; without AB5 Prop 22 would not have been 'born'.
> 
> Still, still have not seen the reasons AB5 is better than Prop 22 or better than how things are currently. Crickets. As if nobody wants to defend AB5. Huh. &#129318;‍♂


Let's turn the clock back a couple of years.
Before Prop 22, before AB5, before the Dynamex decision to the post-recession rise of "gig-economy" businesses.

In California, courts had relied on a 1989 California Supreme Court (CSC) decision in a case where some agricultural workers were classified as independent contractors. The employer was a company called Borello and the Borello decision laid out 8 factors for courts to use to determine the proper classification of workers. It included things like who provides the tools, sets the hours, etc. This standard was in place until 2018 when the same CSC simplified the process by reducing the number of qualifying factors to three and requiring all of them to be met in order to grant the independent contractor classification.

Certainly, a major factor in the court's consideration was the rise of IC classifications in gig-economy businesses but California's Department Of Industrial Relations (DIR) had been swamped with cases battling with trucking companies, tech firms and other industries attempting to shirk their employer responsibilities. Additionally, when workers applied for unemployment, disability, or workers compensation benefits, the State applied the Borello test and granted the benefits to be paid out of the State's benefit pool even though the employers never contributed. The resulting draining of funds accelerated as the gig-economy exploded.

When the delivery service Dynamex fought their DIR case to the CSC the court responded with an 82 page unanimous decision written by the Chief Justice. The decision included a history of difficulties with courts and agencies applying different degrees of relevance to each of the 8 factors laid on in Borello. The result was a varied history of legal precedents that left too much leeway for workers, employers, and courts to clearly figure out how to classify workers. The Dynamex decision also included quite a few pages listing societal issues like worker exploitation, and unfair competition with businesses that had properly classified their workers as employees.

The three factor requirement is frequently referred to as the "ABC" test and had been used for years in 26 other states for some form for granting state benefits or forcing employers to pay proper wages. The Dynamex decision was limited to "wage and hour" claims which means pay and expenses. Other worker benefits were still to be decided under the Borello standard.

AB5 did several things. It first turned the Dynamex opinion into State law, it also made it apply to all areas of work, finally doing away with the use of Borello all together. AB5 included a number of "carve outs" for specific workers and this year the legislature added a few more.One of the big facets of AB5 was the inclusion of an injunction power that allowed the courts to force an immediate reclassification of workers if there was a reasonable chance of eventually winning the case.

As far as Uber and Lyft are concerned, nearly all courts that looked at driver and transportation competitor challenges to their IC classification of drivers agreed with the plaintiffs bringing the suits that under Borello, there was a reasonable chance that drivers had been misclassified and therefore approved a cash settlement to the plaintiffs but allowed them to continue to classify the drivers as ICs. So even without AB5 and without Dynamex, Uber and Lyft were in deep dodo if any of these challenges were to be decided by a judge or jury. So they just kept writing checks to keep the issue from ever being decided.

If there was truly any doubt on the part of the rideshare companies about the applicability of Borello, that was blown out window by the 2018 Dynamex decision, not by AB5. So said the judge that last month that approved the injunction brought by the California Attorney General and the City Attorneys of San Francisco, Los Angeles, and San Diego. He felt that Dynamex applicability was a black and white issue for them and that the defendants had knowingly and willfully avoided the law since 2018!


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

ChillinLA said:


> "Prop 22 "guarantees" certain benefits, including completely undefined "assistance" with health care premiums


That means you get a letter in the mail explaining where you can find the webpage to purchase unaffordable ObamaCare insurance.


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