# Uber is setting up drivers with rental cars



## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

http://arstechnica.com/business/201...-uber-is-setting-drivers-up-with-rental-cars/

Remember kids, you have to pay $210 a week for a rental car but you can only drive 90 miles a day or pay 25 cents per mile

Uber is partnering with Enterprise to rent cars to potential Uber drivers for $210 a week in a pilot program that's launching this week in Denver, Colorado.

The ride-share service is targeting potential drivers who either don't have a car or whose car can't be used under Uber's standards-drivers' cars must be in good condition and under 15 years old.

Uber already has a car leasing program that it runs in partnership with Xchange Leasing in a dozen major markets around the country. But the Enterprise partnership seems to be targeting a more flexible, short-term kind of driver, someone who might only want to drive for Uber for a month rather than six months. The rental, however, can be extended as long as the driver wants (and as long as the driver is in good standing with Uber and Enterprise).

Besides the $210-per-week charge, which doesn't include taxes and fees, renters must put down a $500 refundable deposit and pay a $40 startup fee. The cost of the rental is deducted from the drivers' Uber earnings. Renters also must leave a credit or debit card on file with Enterprise so it can deduct rental charges if the driver makes less from Uber than the rental car costs.

Besides the $210-per-week charge, which doesn't include taxes and fees, renters must put down a $500 refundable deposit and pay a $40 startup fee. The cost of the rental is deducted from the drivers' Uber earnings. Renters also must leave a credit or debit card on file with Enterprise so it can deduct rental charges if the driver makes less from Uber than the rental car costs.

Through the Uber/Enterprise program, there's also a mileage cap. Drivers can go 2,500 miles every 28 days, which comes out to 90 miles per day. Any extra miles driven after 2,500 will incur a charge of $0.25 per mile. The rental cost also covers damage protection on the car after $1,000 as long as the Uber app is off or if the app is on but no match with a passenger has been made.

The pilot program is another avenue for the massively popular startup to recruit more potential drivers. _The Denver Post_ reports that Uber chose the Colorado capital because of the size of the market and its relatively permissive regulatory environment. Many cities from New York to Chicago to San Francisco have locked horns with Uber for circumventing the regulations followed by traditional taxi drivers, and while Uber has largely won out, many cities' major airports still prevent Uber drivers from picking up and dropping off passengers at those popular travel hubs.

"What we're trying to do here is lower the barrier to entry for someone who does want to work with Uber but who does not have a qualifying car or doesn't have a car at all," Andrew Chapin, Uber's head of vehicle solutions, told _The Denver Post_.

_*Correction:* Uber noted that it asked Ars and _The Denver Post_ to correct Chapin's statement to say that the offer would "lower the barrier to entry for someone who does want to work with Uber," rather than "someone who does want to work for Uber."_


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Title should be, 

Proof DRIVERS are nuts-Enterprise rental car program.


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

_Renters also must leave a credit or debit card on file with Enterprise so it can deduct rental charges if the driver makes less from Uber than the rental car costs._

Uber makes money. Enterprise makes money. The credit card companies make money. Win - win - win!


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## Turbo (Sep 20, 2015)

Coachman said:


> _Renters also must leave a credit or debit card on file with Enterprise so it can deduct rental charges if the driver makes less from Uber than the rental car costs._
> 
> Uber makes money. Enterprise makes money. The credit card companies make money. Win - win - win!


Reminds me of something I overheard at Disneyland.

Boy: "Grandma they call it The Happiest Place On Earth, but all they do is take your money"
Grandma, after a brief pause: "Well, _they're_ happy"


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## McSurge (Nov 25, 2015)

i was told rentals werent allowed


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

McSurge said:


> i was told rentals werent allowed


Well , you might be in luck. It appears theyve found a new way to encroach upon morons once again.


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## ColdRider (Oct 19, 2015)

Wonder how many simpletons will fall for this


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

Today, i saw an Enterprise Rideshare minivan. https://www.enterpriserideshare.com/vanpool/en.html

Looks like everyone is trying to get a slice of the pie.


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## Turbo (Sep 20, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> Today, i saw an Enterprise Rideshare minivan. https://www.enterpriserideshare.com/vanpool/en.html
> 
> Looks like everyone is trying to get a slice of the pie.


My company had one of those. Enterprise supplied the vehicle and our employee vanpool members used it; registered drivers could take it home if they wanted for personal use.


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

As we expense 57.5 cents a mile, 25 is cheaper than our own cars. On a big earnings week with lots of surges you could do really well. Am I missing something?


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

ginseng41 said:


> As we expense 57.5 cents a mile, 25 is cheaper than our own cars. On a big earnings week with lots of surges you could do really well. Am I missing something?


It only seems like it's cheaper than your own car. The 57.5¢/mile figure includes your cost for fuel and insurance, among other things. The 25¢/mile does not. Trust that the driver will be the last one in the equation to make any money -- especially if you're counting on a "big earnings week with lots of surges." This might be useful as a temporary measure if your car is in the shop though.


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## ginseng41 (Nov 30, 2014)

If I drive 9 miles in a day, it's a huge day but I'm in a weird market. Fuel in my car is 5 cents a mile. Insurance is a monthly fee of 110 for me - a ride share policy but it doesn't matter how many miles I drive. It still doesn't seem like close to what driving a personal vehicle that's late model costs us. Even with significantly worse fuel economy it's less than 57.5


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

To me 90 miles per day is a huge limitation.

$500 deposit zeroes out most short-term emergency use situations

And in my virtaully surge less 75 cent market I'd have to be pretty stupid or desperate and perhaps even both


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

observer said:


> Title should be,
> 
> Proof DRIVERS are nuts-Enterprise rental car program.


Please fix, boss man


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

SECOTIME said:


> To me 90 miles per day is a huge limitation.
> 
> $500 deposit zeroes out most short-term emergency use situations
> 
> And in my virtaully surge less 75 cent market I'd have to be pretty stupid or desperate and perhaps even both


Look at it like this: It's not really a limitation, it's more of an incentive to drive more than 2500 miles. The rental cost for the first 2500 miles is $840 (plus fees, etc.) or 33.6¢/mile. After you've driven 2500 miles (maybe 2000 of those paid), your rental cost goes down to 25¢/mile for additional miles.

Just like the Fuel Card incentive, it's primarily intended to influence a driver to be on the road more in order to make more trips.

This is just a stupid, expensive, crazy deal for drivers. As someone has said: Win (Uber) - Win (Enterprise) - LOSE (driver). Don't fall for it.


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## afrojoe824 (Oct 21, 2015)

SECOTIME said:


> To me 90 miles per day is a huge limitation.
> 
> $500 deposit zeroes out most short-term emergency use situations
> 
> And in my virtaully surge less 75 cent market I'd have to be pretty stupid or desperate and perhaps even both


hmm let's see. your own car is 75 cent per mile WHEN YOUR DRIVING SOMEONE. So now let's deduct .25cents and that's someone driving for .50cents per mile. Don't even get me startaed with the dead miles. hahaha Dude, stupid is an understatement. You're too kind. lol

But I agree with your statement. But some people will still sign up for this and their argument would be "well yeah I only made this much. But I don't have to worry about my car expense"... lol


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## Uberduberdoo (Oct 22, 2015)

$500 a month in mileage charges. and what about the insurance requirements from enterprise, you know that your regular insurance is inadequate, Enterprise has a solution I'm sure, $$$


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

ubreduberdoo said:


> $500 a month in mileage charges. and what about the insurance requirements from enterprise, you know that your regular insurance is inadequate, Enterprise has a solution I'm sure, $$$


"The rental cost also covers damage protection on the car after $1,000 as long as the Uber app is off or if the app is on but no match with a passenger has been made."


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## Uberduberdoo (Oct 22, 2015)

CommanderXL said:


> "The rental cost also covers damage protection on the car after $1,000 as long as the Uber app is off or if the app is on but no match with a passenger has been made."


Its the liability portion of the insurance that makes me wonder. Enterprise knowingly renting a car to a rideshare driver whose personal policy does not cover ridesharing may give Enterprise serious exposure..... I'm no expert but if true, enterprise will need to limit their exposure in some way. Perhaps some kind of insurance rider attached to the rental agreement...$$$ for the renter? I'm guessing that this rental service will be limited to particular states because of insurance limitations.


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## rtaatl (Jul 3, 2014)

McSurge said:


> i was told rentals werent allowed


When I first started rentals or minivans weren't allowed..guess Uber had to stoop to new lows to keep cars on the road and keep the facade going that they're a transportation business.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Something for the tax experts out there, isn't the 57.5 mileage allowance only for a car you own and insure?


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## Sly (Aug 30, 2014)

observer said:


> Something for the tax experts out there, isn't the 57.5 mileage allowance only for a car you own and insure?


You can itemize. Ie. Writeoff the rental costs as an expense. You wouldnt be able to write off the milaege.


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## afrojoe824 (Oct 21, 2015)

observer said:


> Something for the tax experts out there, isn't the 57.5 mileage allowance only for a car you own and insure?


.575cents only applies to the vehicle you own and use for business. You choose between the miles or car maintenance expenses to write off. For many people, the .575cents is worth more than maintenance.


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## LAuberX (Jun 3, 2014)

$910.00 per month, plus fuel... for most of the country that is over two weeks earnings driving UberX.

.... and that is only IF you can stay within the mileage cap.


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## afrojoe824 (Oct 21, 2015)

LAuberX said:


> $910.00 per month, plus fuel... for most of the country that is over two weeks earnings driving UberX.
> 
> .... and that is only IF you can stay within the mileage cap.


YUP! so I make on avg $1600. sometimes more... so with this POS I would only make $700? hmm 20 hours per week accounts to 80 a month... $700/80 = 8.75 hr. and I'm not even including the price of fuel yet. These are numbers based on the mileage cap. hahahaha

but in the end, People will still do it


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## ATL2SD (Aug 16, 2015)

KGB7 said:


> Today, i saw an Enterprise Rideshare minivan. https://www.enterpriserideshare.com/vanpool/en.html
> 
> Looks like everyone is trying to get a slice of the pie.


We have these here in California. I watch people use them everyday @ my 9-5.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

*Uber Launches Insane "Pay-to-Work" Car Rental Program *


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

This is simplified because I don't address the per-minute portion of the fare, which is so minor it's almost inconsequential. I also don't consider surge pricing. It's also "best case" in the sense that you would be lucky to sell 4 out of 5 miles driven. It's probably more like 2 paid for every 5 driven. Also, feel free to correct me for any errors.

*Part I: Upfront Costs*

What you are basically doing in this situation is purchasing 2500 miles for $840 (plus fees!) If you can "sell" 4 miles out of each 5 you drive, you can sell 2000 of them. $840 divided by 2000 miles means each sellable mile effectively costs 42¢ to buy.

To drive 2500 miles at 25mpg takes 100 gallons of gas at $2/gal, or $200. You can only sell 2000 miles so $200 divided by 2000 miles means each sellable mile effectively costs 10¢ in fuel.

Adding the 10¢ in fuel to your 42¢ rental cost comes to 52¢/mile in direct outlay for the first 2500 miles.

Additional miles cost 25¢ to buy, so let's say you buy 1000 more miles for $250. You can only sell 800, so the effective cost per sellable mile is $250 divided by 800, or 31.25¢/mile.

Adding the 10¢ in fuel to your 31.25¢ rental cost comes to 41.25¢/mile in direct outlay for each mile after 2500.

0-2500 miles: 42¢ rental + 10¢ fuel = 52¢/mile
2501- miles: 31.25¢ rental + 10¢ fuel = 41.25¢/mile

*Part II: Revenue Potential*

For an outlay of $840 rent and $200 fuel ($1040) you have 2000 miles that you can sell for $1.10 (in Denver) each, less Uber's 20%, or 88¢/mile.

88¢ x 2000 = $1760 collected

$1760 - $1040 = $720 (36¢ profit per sellable mile)

For the additional 800 sellable miles you outlay $250 additional rental (pay for 1000 miles) and $80 for fuel ($330)

88¢ x 800 = $704 collected

$704 - $330 = $374 (46.75¢ profit per sellable mile)

So for the minimum rental fee and the fuel cost for 2500 miles, you can collect a "maximum" net of $720. If you want to collect more than that, you'll have to buy and sell more miles, earning 46.75¢ for each additional one.

*Part III: Time Requirements*

If an average trip is 10 miles and 1.3 trips can be completed each hour, then 13 trip miles are driven each hour. 2000 total trip miles divided by 13 per hour is about 153 hours.
800 trip miles divided by 13 per hour is 61.5 hours.

$720 / 153 hours = $4.71/hour
$374 / 61.5 hours = $6.08/hour

153 hours / 28 days = 5.46 hours per day, every day.
214.5 hours / 28 days = 7.66 hours per day, every day.

*Part IV: Tax Implications*

Here's what makes this even worse. If you rent a vehicle for this purpose, it becomes a business expense. You can deduct the rental expense and the gas so your taxable income for the 2500 miles would be the same as your net:

$1760 - $1040 = $720 taxable

If you own your vehicle, you can deduct 57.5¢/mile from what you collect:

$1760 - $1437.50 (fuel cost is included in this amount) = $322.50 taxable


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

You lost me or I'm ready for bed and need to read this tomorrow lol


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

That's a lot of stress and hustle for $6 an hour.

Plus, picture it in 5-7 years.. Millions of drivers.. Millions of dead cars all across teh country driven into the pavement


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

CommanderXL said:


> I don't address the per-minute portion of the fare, which is so minor it's almost inconsequential.


Please figure in the Time component of Fares in your calculations.
Denver UberX, ¢16/Minute @25% Commission. And also $1/Ride Base Fare.

Then you'd have the perfect "Best Case Scenario" analysis.

Thanx!


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

Just read up on the exchange lease program. . . damn. . Uber will throw you to the sharks and not even blink lol.. Now this Enterprise scheme...

Uber only cares about once thing ..25% of your efforts and that SRF


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## Huberis (Mar 15, 2015)

ginseng41 said:


> If I drive 9 miles in a day, it's a huge day but I'm in a weird market. Fuel in my car is 5 cents a mile. Insurance is a monthly fee of 110 for me - a ride share policy but it doesn't matter how many miles I drive. It still doesn't seem like close to what driving a personal vehicle that's late model costs us. Even with significantly worse fuel economy it's less than 57.5


9 miles of driving per shift is a huge day? How is that possible? Weirdness doesn't explain much.


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

I think he meant 90


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## LAuberX (Jun 3, 2014)

CommanderXL said:


> Also, feel free to correct me for any errors.





LAuberX said:


> $910 per month $210.00 X 4.333 = $910.00 per month.


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## McSurge (Nov 25, 2015)

then i can rent a $20 a day car with unlimited miles.


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## FlDriver (Oct 16, 2015)

So they are charging double what a typical lease costs but limit your mileage? What a scam. 90 miles a day isn't many for Uber.


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## FlDriver (Oct 16, 2015)

Sly said:


> You can itemize. Ie. Writeoff the rental costs as an expense. You wouldnt be able to write off the milaege.


Plus write off the gas and any repairs or maintenance that you pay for.


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## Uberduberdoo (Oct 22, 2015)

McSurge said:


> then i can rent a $20 a day car with unlimited miles.


apparently you can.. when I started, I was told no way I could use a rental car. I'm guessing Uber needs a piece to allow it.. so make sure when you tell uber you are renting a car, they're in for $1.60 per day and they can even call it the Safe Rental Fee


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## KMANDERSON (Jul 19, 2015)

SECOTIME said:


> http://arstechnica.com/business/201...-uber-is-setting-drivers-up-with-rental-cars/
> 
> Remember kids, you have to pay $210 a week for a rental car but you can only drive 90 miles a day or pay 25 cents per mile
> 
> ...


Xchange lease look to be the best option if you need a vehicle


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## REBURENTRAP (Dec 5, 2015)

Uber-the greatest part of their business strategy is the physiological games they play on uneducated,desperate,uninformed so called Partners. ...


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

ginseng41 said:


> As we expense 57.5 cents a mile, 25 is cheaper than our own cars. On a big earnings week with lots of surges you could do really well. Am I missing something?


YES, YOU ARE MISSING A LOT

http://gizmodo.com/uber-launches-insane-pay-to-work-car-rental-program-1745695023


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## radzer0 (Oct 26, 2015)

Yet enterprise doesn't limit your mileage otherwise on standard vehicles. Only on luxury and large suv.


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

KMANDERSON said:


> Xchange lease look to be the best option if you need a vehicle


Are you nuts?


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## everythingsuber (Sep 29, 2015)

What type of vehicles are they actually offering for rent? I'm thinking if it was something you could live in then you could get this to work.


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## KMANDERSON (Jul 19, 2015)

SECOTIME said:


> Are you nuts?


Well better then renting a car it's cheaper no milage cap.But the thing is if you car does not qualify look for other ways to make money


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

Once again the clear winner is Uber. 

They have no clue what shame and humility is that should come to them. Praying on desperate people, smh.

I think I will send them a ghost of the future ...


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

ginseng41 said:


> As we expense 57.5 cents a mile, 25 is cheaper than our own cars. On a big earnings week with lots of surges you could do really well. Am I missing something?


Yes, the pipe dream that goes with it. And the misunderstood on the word Could.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

This is absolutely sickening. More third world exploitation. 

Until this program goes away. I am Boycotting Enterprise rentals. And everyone of us should do the same, even if it doesn't. Make a difference.


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## Luberon (Nov 24, 2014)

From what I read on these pages, most full timers run 1000-1500mi per week. Under this plan it will cost a driver $300-$427 weekly up front just for the privilege of working your b#tt off. How much a driver makes is highly market and platform dependant. XL/select/Black may make sense if available but I doubt if it would ever be worthwhile on X regardless of market.


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## Luberon (Nov 24, 2014)

Luberon said:


> From what I read on these pages, most full timers run 1000-1500mi per week. Under this plan it will cost a driver $300-$427 weekly up front just for the privilege of working your b#tt off. How much a driver makes is highly market and platform dependant. XL/select/Black may make sense if available but I doubt if it would ever be worthwhile on X regardless of market.


in my city, gas cost for 25mpg sedan is .088c so you will spend $88-$130 on gas weekly. 400-500$ is a yuuuge price to pay for a job that accepts 15 year old cars in some markets.


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## Matt Uterak (Jul 28, 2015)

The numbers don't work in Denver.

I have enough data to know what I make each hour I drive.

If the rate was $2/mile and $.30 per minute I would think this option might work. But they aren't so it doesn't.


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

ginseng41 said:


> As we expense 57.5 cents a mile, 25 is cheaper than our own cars. On a big earnings week with lots of surges you could do really well. Am I missing something?


You don't expense 57.5 cents a mile. You use that amount as a tax deduction.

(which you wouldn't be able to do with a rental.)


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## Muki (Oct 15, 2015)

REBURENTRAP said:


> Uber-the greatest part of their business strategy is the physiological games they play on uneducated,desperate,uninformed so called Partners. ...


I was just reading that the labor participation rate is at a 40 year low. There are a vast amount of people who are unhinged from the labor force. Most are probably unemployable due to not having specialized professional skills to cut it in this modern workforce. Uber is tapping into this vast reservoir of desperate people needing low barrier to entry jobs and exploiting them. It's really sad.


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

BTW, Enterprise won't take a debit card for the deposit.

I found that out when I had to put my car in the shop without an appointment. They didn't have any loaners, so I walked across the street to Enterprise. All I had with me was my debit card. That ended up being the first time I used Uber.


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## forqalso (Jun 1, 2015)

ginseng41 said:


> As we expense 57.5 cents a mile, 25 is cheaper than our own cars. On a big earnings week with lots of surges you could do really well. Am I missing something?


Yes, you are. The 57.5 cents is the IRS mileage deduction for most vehicles, hopefully, you're not driving über in anything close to that in operating costs. Also, the 57.5 includes gas, the 25 cents to Enterprise does not.


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

I'd like to know what type of cars they offer. I bet it's the worst ones in the lot.

If you use debit you have to put a $200 deposit .. Well I took a girl to Enterprise the other day and that's what she said she had to do because she didn't have a credit card ..


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

SECOTIME said:


> I'd like to know what type of cars they offer. I bet it's the worst ones in the lot.
> 
> If you use debit you have to put a $200 deposit .. Well I took a girl to Enterprise the other day and that's what she said she had to do because she didn't have a credit card ..












Apparently the vehicles are "low-mileage Toyota Corolla, Nissan Sentra, Hyundai Elantra, Chevy Cruze and Ford Focus vehicles."

https://get.uber.com/cl/enterprise/


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

Probably some worn out base model camry with nasty cloth seats so you can't even do select


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

210 per week _plus_ taxes and fees?  Yikes.

What could fees possibly be? Sounds like the "document" fees that dealers try to tack on to vehicle purchases. When they try that with me I tell them I have a signature fee which I levy every time I sign my name, which is equal in value to their document fee. You charge me $200 for doing the job you're supposed to be doing, I charge you $200 for signing my name.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

ginseng41 said:


> On a big earnings week with lots of surges you could do really well.


Get a lot of those these days do you?


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

elelegido said:


> 210 per week _plus_ taxes and fees?  Yikes.
> 
> What could fees possibly be? Sounds like the "document" fees that dealers try to tack on to vehicle purchases. When they try that with me I tell them I have a signature fee which I levy every time I sign my name, which is equal in value to their document fee. You charge me $200 for doing the job you're supposed to be doing, I charge you $200 for signing my name.


Here is the regular weekly rental cost of a Corolla in Denver without insurance:










So, based on $210 rental rate, the add-ons would be:

$12.00 -- CO Road Safety Fee
$6.09 -- Sales Tax (2.9%)
$4.20 -- Sales Tax (2%)
$15.23 -- Tax-MV Rental Items (7.25%)
$2.31 -- Sales Tax (1.1%)

$39.83 Additional

*$249.83 Total/Week
*
Note that the regular rate is $110/week but it doesn't include the insurance. Enterprise quotes that at $16.99-$25.99/day or $118.93-$181.93/week, making the regular total with insurance, taxes and fees $255.51-$318.51/week. So this Amazingly Great Deal from Uber and Enterprise is worth a whopping *$5.68-$68.68/week!!!
*
Is this a joke?

And oh yeah, there's a $40 fee just to sign up for this great deal! Wa ha ha ha ha


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## Uber-Doober (Dec 16, 2014)

REBURENTRAP said:


> Uber-the greatest part of their business strategy is the physiological games they play on uneducated,desperate,uninformed so called Partners. ...


^^^
Physiological or psychological? lol
Psychological for Uber's head games.... Physiological for the diarrhea that the thought of Travis gives. 
He's ten times more effective than Ex-Lax but not to be taken by anyone without a psychiatrist's approval. 
Take one Travis three hours before bedtime, and preferably wear something leak proof.


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## Davesway10 (Aug 7, 2015)

You can get a conventional car loan for 200 - 300 per month on a decent/newer vehicle. Why would anyone consider this option? Even if I were in some miracle market making 2000.00 per week I wouldn't consider this option.


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## Sly (Aug 30, 2014)

Davesway10 said:


> You can get a conventional car loan for 200 - 300 per month on a decent/newer vehicle. Why would anyone consider this option? Even if I were in some miracle market making 2000.00 per week I wouldn't consider this option.


purchased a 2015 Honda Civic. Car payment is 21% interest, $544.09 per month. Helps to have good credit.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Sly said:


> purchased a 2015 Honda Civic. Car payment is 21% interest, $544.09 per month. Helps to have good credit.


Sly...oh no Sly; say it isn't so! You going in to a dealer to get a new car - this will have been lamb to the slaughter.

Yes it does help to have good credit, so you don't pay 21% interest . My loan calculator says that based on your payment and the interest rate, you probably financed $20,000 over 60 months. If we look at the amortization schedule we see that in the first 12 months you are paying an average of $330 per month just in interest! If you _must_ get a loan at a predatory rate, go for a cheap car; not balls out for 20 grand at 21%!

You were almost certainly upside down on your vehicle the moment you drove it off the lot, so now you're stuck with it until you pay it off. And paying it off will cost you $32,000 in principal and interest. For 32 grand you could buy your 2015 Civic _and_ a 2014 Corolla.

I hope you didn't buy the Civic for Ubering in. The depreciation would be huge, adding to the gargantuan interest payments of your loan.

Your "deal" is the worst I've seen since the Santander leases. In fact, it's worse as there is no easy get out clause with a straight loan.

Wow.....


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## Sly (Aug 30, 2014)

elelegido said:


> Sly...oh no Sly; say it isn't so! You going in to a dealer to get a new car - this will have been lamb to the slaughter.
> 
> Yes it does help to have good credit, so you don't pay 21% interest . My loan calculator says that based on your payment and the interest rate, you probably financed $20,000 over 60 months. If we look at the amortization schedule we see that in the first 12 months you are paying an average of $330 per month just in interest! If you _must_ get a loan at a predatory rate, go for a cheap car; not balls out for 20 grand at 21%!
> 
> ...


Uber isn't my only driving job.
I haven't Uber'd in weeks.
My main job sometimes leaves me waiting in parking lots for hours for my pax to take home, so I Uber while I wait. That hasn't happened in awhile.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Sly said:


> Uber isn't my only driving job.
> I haven't Uber'd in weeks.
> My main job sometimes leaves me waiting in parking lots for hours for my pax to take home, so I Uber while I wait. That hasn't happened in awhile.


Well, at least you won't be killing your car for peanuts.

All I'd suggest is pay the loan for a few months to a year, fix whatever credit issues that caused you to to get scalped on the interest rate, and then refinance asap.


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## uberparadise (Aug 2, 2015)

ginseng41 said:


> As we expense 57.5 cents a mile, 25 is cheaper than our own cars. On a big earnings week with lots of surges you could do really well. Am I missing something?


I drive 300 miles a day on average. So 100 miles or less is a real disadvantage. The more drivers the less surge and the smaller piece of the pie the driver will get. It's a bad plan. Buy a 2015/2016 new car and drive it to the ground I am over 100,000 miles on my 2015. It looks brand new and I have had no problems. 200,000 miles will occur sooner than u realize.


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## BurgerTiime (Jun 22, 2015)

The perfect program for those that cannot do simple math.


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## USArmy31B30 (Oct 30, 2015)

I will ONLY sign up for this program if the car is a HYBRID with 40+MPG, gas and insurance are all paid for under the $210 for 7 days!!! LoL


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## RobGM84 (Oct 26, 2015)

Old Rocker said:


> BTW, Enterprise won't take a debit card for the deposit.
> 
> I found that out when I had to put my car in the shop without an appointment. They didn't have any loaners, so I walked across the street to Enterprise. All I had with me was my debit card. That ended up being the first time I used Uber.


They will certainly take a debit card but they will charge about $500 to the card and return it back after. You probably just didn't have enough in your account.


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## RobGM84 (Oct 26, 2015)

So, I am just curious. Are there a lot of people here who believe that their cost per mile is less than $.33/mile including all maintenance, depreciation, insurance, and cost to finance (but not fuel)? If I am reading this correctly that is the cost per mile of this for 2500 miles per month (which is 1300 more than the average monthly lease). Cost per mile of more than 2500 miles/mo is actually less since additional miles are only $.25/mil.

This also allows you to exit the agreement with only a weeks notice which isn't something you will get with any purchase or lease.

Edit: 
So, just looking at the current Toyota lease offers it appears they are offering the Corolla at $149/mo with $1999 down for 24 months and 12k miles/yr. That is a total of $5575 so 5575/24000 = $.23/mile for the car. You would then need to add the cost of insurance which (just as an estimate) would be an additional $1000/yr so 2000/24000= $.08/mile. .08+.23 = $.31/mile (Toyota includes scheduled maintenance)

So - can anyone share their calculations for cost per mile including insurance?


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## Davesway10 (Aug 7, 2015)

RobGM84 said:


> So, I am just curious. Are there a lot of people here who believe that their cost per mile is less than $.33/mile including all maintenance, depreciation, insurance, and cost to finance (but not fuel)


This is a BS rhetorical argument. I in no way endorse this renting POV but the argument you are suggesting is equally BS. Unless you acquire a vehicle for the sole purpose of UBER then expenses such as payment and insurance should not be included in your per mile expenses. Period!


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

RobGM84 said:


> They will certainly take a debit card but they will charge about $500 to the card and return it back after. You probably just didn't have enough in your account.


They told me specifically they wouldn't take a debit card for the deposit. Maybe the clerk was uninformed.


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## RobGM84 (Oct 26, 2015)

Old Rocker said:


> They told me specifically they wouldn't take a debit card for the deposit. Maybe the clerk was uninformed.


Could be location specific. They get a lot of angry customers when they pull that much out so I could see managers deciding they just won't deal with it.


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## RobGM84 (Oct 26, 2015)

Davesway10 said:


> This is a BS rhetorical argument. I in no way endorse this renting POV but the argument you are suggesting is equally BS. Unless you acquire a vehicle for the sole purpose of UBER then expenses such as payment and insurance should not be included in your per mile expenses. Period!


Are you kidding me? These are still costs you incur. This is your actual cost per mile of every mile driven whether for work or personal.

Not only that, but we are talking about a lease for "well qualified buyers" which means the money you are paying on the lease is almost 1:1 proportional to the actual depreciation costs on the vehicle.


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## Davesway10 (Aug 7, 2015)

RobGM84 said:


> These are still costs you incur


And if you work a "regular" 9-5 do you subtract these costs from your earnings ?


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## RobGM84 (Oct 26, 2015)

Davesway10 said:


> And if you work a "regular" 9-5 do you subtract these costs from your earnings ?


This program is for people who dont currently have a car. There are quite a few people in Denver who do exactly this and rely on public transit for their 9-5. The target audience would have no personal insurance and should add it to their costs When comparing the two.

Likewise, if this was your plan to operate a rental instead of a personal car for uber and personal use you could easily cancel your policy and only have this coverage (since it covers your use with the app off) so again, it's relevant.

So...like I said...costs are pretty close but this gives you the option to exit at any time. Loan/lease means you are locked for 24-60 months unless you want to pay a huge penalty.


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

Yean but if you don't have a car it most likely is because you can't afford one. This isn't the best solution to obtaining a car.. It's not even the 5-6th best solution.

Travis must really believe that people enjoy driving just for fun.


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## negeorgia (Feb 1, 2015)

I have been saying for over a year that I would never suggest someone Uber with a car payment. I am modifying my advice to now be I would never suggest someone Uber in a car that they need.


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## boredwithitall (Oct 12, 2015)

So long as Renter (i) is an authorized and licensed participating driver for a qualified Transportation Network Company or similar organization which holds a master written agreement with Enterprise or its affiliate for the supply of rental of vehicles, (ii) remains in good standing with Enterprise and the Transportation Network Company or similar organization (iii) is in compliance with the terms of the Rental Agreement and this Supplement, then, notwithstanding any language in the Rental Agreement to the contrary, Renter (but not other authorized driver) may utilize the Vehicle for the transporting of persons for hire as contemplated under Renter’s agreement with the Transportation Network Company and applicable law. The foregoing authorization for for-hire use by Renter shall only apply to rentals and vehicles from the original Enterprise renting location where the vehicle was delivered to Renter. Renter shall comply with all applicable federal, state and local laws, regulations, ordinances and orders relating to the transport of persons for hire, including but not limited to all insurance, reporting, privacy and safety requirements. Renter shall comply with all rental program rules, restrictions and requirements imposed by the Transportation Network Company and/or Enterprise from time to time. Unless otherwise required by applicable law, Renter shall be at least 25 years of age and will be validly licensed to operate a vehicle in the state in which the rental will occur and will operate the vehicle as a Transportation Network Company driver only in such state. Renter shall return the vehicle to Enterprise, or to a location designated by Enterprise, every thirty (30) days or such earlier timeframe as may be requested by Enterprise. Renter will respond and complete in a timely fashion all vehicle inspection and maintenance requests made by Enterprise, including but not limited to periodic vehicle inspections, preventative and corrective maintenance and regular odometer updates. Except as may be required by applicable law or as is necessary to operate as a Transportation Network Company driver, Renter shall not disclose to any third parties the terms, conditions and/or obligations associated with Renter’s rental transaction with Enterprise as set forth in this Supplement or associated with Renter’s methods of obtaining its vehicles from Enterprise hereunder as a Transportation Network Company driver.


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## RobGM84 (Oct 26, 2015)

SECOTIME said:


> Yean but if you don't have a car it most likely is because you can't afford one. This isn't the best solution to obtaining a car.. It's not even the 5-6th best solution.
> 
> Travis must really believe that people enjoy driving just for fun.


There are plenty of people I know in downtown who don't own a car but could easily afford one. I lived here for two years without a car just to avoid the hassle of having a car sitting idle when I didn't need it. Not everyone lives in a place where a car is a necessity.


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## tripAces (Jun 18, 2015)

Does this mean Uber is recognizing they are slowing down enticing people to drive. And trying to tap the worst minded people in the World. 
The very desperate! 

Now Enterprise can advertise. Not only cars driven like they are stolen. But also puked in over and over.


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## Toleshi (Dec 3, 2015)

Uh, yeah. Was almost an idiot. I did the interview, paperwork. Drove home and asked myself if I was nuts. In Las Vegas, they can't do airport, not really getting kickbacks from strip clubs and massage place. I'm just going back to drive a cab instead. This renter program is psychotic.


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

The more I analyze this the worse it gets!

If anyone is still seriously considering this complete scam where Enterprise gets paid their regular rate, Uber gets paid its regular fee, people get rides and YOU pay for it all, here's another way to look at it that will hopefully change your mind:

Weekly rent for 625 miles is $250 with fees. Fuel is 25 gal x $1.69 (Denver price) = $42.25. Upfront costs are $292.25/week.

$292.25 cost divided by 88¢ net/mile is about 332 miles.

This means that you'll have to have a paying passenger for the first (and at least) 332 miles out of 625 total miles (that's 53%!!) to get your money back.

Said another way, you will have to have a minimum 1:1 ratio of paid miles to dead miles JUST TO COVER THE COST!!!

If by some miracle all remaining miles were paid, the MAX you would net is $257.84/week (293 miles x 88¢). This is not obtainable. The second you drive off the Enterprise lot you're using up miles.

You will be spending $292.25 up front to get a maximum of $257.84. You will either lose money doing this or you will have to work a ginormous amount of hours for the pennies to amount to anything.

There is no end to corporate greed. Uber and Enterprise should explain how exactly this is a good deal for anyone but themselves. 

I just saved you a fortune. You're welcome.


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

And an addendum:

You have to drive 332 paid miles to cover the weekly cost.

If the average trip is 5 miles, then you'll need to drive _at least_ 66 trips before you make a dime.

If the average trip is 10 miles, you'll have to drive 33 trips.

I don't know anything about the average trip length in Denver but that seems like a lot of trips AND a lot of hours to spend before you even make a dime.

And my Weekly Summary says "Top Drivers" average 31 trips per week.


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## Toleshi (Dec 3, 2015)

CommanderXL said:


> And an addendum:
> 
> You have to drive 332 paid miles to cover the weekly cost.
> 
> ...


 I concur. This program is like working for free, but better than that, you're paying them! I wonder how long this will last.


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## RobGM84 (Oct 26, 2015)

Ok, let's stop all the fuzzy creative math. I have clearly shown that the cost here is $.33/mile which is very close to the cost of a traditional lease (with preferred credit which many won't qualify for). How about someone actually show that their cost per mile is lower than $.31/mile all in before fuel costs. 

Or is everyone deluding themselves into thinking their only cost is fuel?


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## Luberon (Nov 24, 2014)

SECOTIME said:


> Yean but if you don't have a car it most likely is because you can't afford one. This isn't the best solution to obtaining a car.





RobGM84 said:


> Ok, let's stop all the fuzzy creative math. I have clearly shown that the cost here is $.33/mile which is very close to the cost of a traditional lease (with preferred credit which many won't qualify for). How about someone actually show that their cost per mile is lower than $.31/mile all in before fuel costs.
> 
> Or is everyone deluding themselves into thinking their only cost is fuel?


First, the cost is .33c/ mile if and only if you drive EXACTLY 630mi in any given week. If you drive under 630mi your cost is higher and if you drive more it is less than .33 but above .25c
Second, I had a 2005 civic last year. Cost me $3500 to buy and own over a year. I got >18,000mi out of the car and sold it for $1500 paid $480 for Insurance over 12 mo. My cost per mile is therefore less than 0.14 cents. So yes, it is possible to run a car on much less than .33 per mile. As a kicker, my car averaged .09c to .11c per mile depending on gas prices. So I ran that car at .25c per mile ALL costs inclusive.


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

RobGM84 said:


> Ok, let's stop all the fuzzy creative math. I have clearly shown that the cost here is $.33/mile which is very close to the cost of a traditional lease (with preferred credit which many won't qualify for). How about someone actually show that their cost per mile is lower than $.31/mile all in before fuel costs.
> 
> Or is everyone deluding themselves into thinking their only cost is fuel?


Your 33¢ does not account for the additional $39.83 in taxes and fees which make the weekly cost $249.83, or 39.97¢ per mile in rental cost alone.

And regardless of what your other costs are, you will need to drive about 284 paid miles (28 to 56 trips) just to pay for the rental.

You will not make a dime until you've driven more trips than Top Drivers!


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## RobGM84 (Oct 26, 2015)

Luberon said:


> First, the cost is .33c/ mile if and only if you drive EXACTLY 630mi in any given week. If you drive under 630mi your cost is higher and if you drive more it is less than .33 but above .25c
> Second, I had a 2005 civic last year. Cost me $3500 to buy and own over a year. I got >18,000mi out of the car and sold it for $1500 paid $480 for Insurance over 12 mo. My cost per mile is therefore less than 0.14 cents. So yes, it is possible to run a car on much less than .33 per mile. As a kicker, my car averaged .09c to .11c per mile depending on gas prices. So I ran that car at .25c per mile ALL costs inclusive.


So you had no maintenance costs during that time? No car washes? No oil changes? You didn't have to register the car? Didn't have to pay taxes? A rental includes all of the above costs.


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## ubershiza (Jan 19, 2015)

CommanderXL said:


> Your 33¢ does not account for the additional $39.83 in taxes and fees which make the weekly cost $249.83, or 39.97¢ per mile in rental cost alone.
> 
> And regardless of what your other costs are, you will need to drive about 284 paid miles (28 to 56 trips) just to pay for the rental.
> 
> You will not make a dime until you've driven more trips than Top Drivers!


 It's a win win for uber. Thats all that matters right? Uber on


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## RockinEZ (Apr 29, 2015)

Is Uber now associated with the federal government?
Only the government could produce such a stupid program. 

I make about $200 on good days, but I have to drive over 150 miles to do that. Sometimes 200 miles. 

Only bad mathematicians will fall for this special Uber deal.


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## Luberon (Nov 24, 2014)

RobGM84 said:


> So you had no maintenance costs during that time? No car washes? No oil changes? You didn't have to register the car? Didn't have to pay taxes? A rental includes all of the above costs.


 I bought the car for $2800, three oil changes, two tires and a few this and that. Vacuum +/- wash weekly at a self service spot for $1-$5.


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

Practically anyone with an Accounting, Finance, or Business degree has been taught that if you are already paying for something, such as a car or insurance, that those costs are sunk costs, and have no business being included in calculating one's costs or profit.


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## RobGM84 (Oct 26, 2015)

Old Rocker said:


> Practically anyone with an Accounting, Finance, or Business degree has been taught that if you are already paying for something, such as a car or insurance, that those costs are sunk costs, and have no business being included in calculating one's costs or profit.


Not exactly. First, we are talking about people who don't have a car in this situation so the costs are all relevant.

Second, not all costs are sunk costs. The cost has to be non-recoverable. In the case of insurance you are actually purchasing pre-paid insurance in most cases which means that if you cancel your policy mid-term you are usually due a refund. You are even due a refund on your registration if you dispose of the vehicle before the end of the tax year. Insurance is never a sunk cost. Your car is also never a sunk cost since it is an item that continues to carry value. You must track this utilizing depreciation of the asset in the case of a car this is usually relative to the mileage. Leases usually directly correlate to the depreciation costs of a new vehicle so they are a good tool for estimation as long as they are secured at a low money factor. Even maintenance is relative to mileage so the future cost of maintenance needs to be figured into per mile costs and is never really a "sunk" cost.

In fact there are very few "sunk" costs in driving. the only ones i can really think of would be any amount paid for licensing, any fees for medical or inspections, etc. That really only accounts for about $80 here.

Just curious - where did you receive your accounting, finance, or business degree?


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## negeorgia (Feb 1, 2015)

RockinEZ said:


> Is Uber now associated with the federal government?
> Only the government could produce such a stupid program.
> 
> I make about $200 on good days, but I have to drive over 150 miles to do that. Sometimes 200 miles.
> ...


Our government schools have produced millions that are bad at math. Avoid debt and save an emergency fund. Credit score is a scam to make people think they can 'afford' to give away all their earnings as monthly payments.


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## Luberon (Nov 24, 2014)

Toleshi said:


> I concur. This program is like working for free, but better than that, you're paying them! I wonder how long this will last.


As long as desperate financially challenged people exist.


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

RobGM84 said:


> Not exactly. First, we are talking about people who don't have a car in this situation so the costs are all relevant.
> 
> Second, not all costs are sunk costs. The cost has to be non-recoverable. In the case of insurance you are actually purchasing pre-paid insurance in most cases which means that if you cancel your policy mid-term you are usually due a refund. You are even due a refund on your registration if you dispose of the vehicle before the end of the tax year. Insurance is never a sunk cost. Your car is also never a sunk cost since it is an item that continues to carry value. You must track this utilizing depreciation of the asset in the case of a car this is usually relative to the mileage. Leases usually directly correlate to the depreciation costs of a new vehicle so they are a good tool for estimation as long as they are secured at a low money factor. Even maintenance is relative to mileage so the future cost of maintenance needs to be figured into per mile costs and is never really a "sunk" cost.
> 
> ...


Derp


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## flashgordonnc (Oct 24, 2014)

SECOTIME said:


> http://arstechnica.com/business/201...-uber-is-setting-drivers-up-with-rental-cars/
> 
> Remember kids, you have to pay $210 a week for a rental car but you can only drive 90 miles a day or pay 25 cents per mile
> 
> ...


From someone who has driven part time for two years.
Here is the broad brush math.
Part time you will easily put 90 miles per 4-5 hr. session and get paid on average about $1.70 per paid mile (or .85/mile) for every mile the car goes forward plus (less) you pay the gas. Keep following the math (properly) and you should come out to about $3 to $6 an hour. As a bonus you will need to work the shittiest hours, carrying the most obnoxious (drunk or high) passengers, and the rides don't come one right after the other. Only about one-half your miles will be paid miles.
Happy Ubering.


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## Trebor (Apr 22, 2015)

It better qualify for UberSELECT at least.


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## CommanderXL (Jun 17, 2015)

Trebor said:


> It better qualify for UberSELECT at least.


It's a Camry.


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## PoorBasterd (Mar 6, 2015)

ColdRider said:


> Wonder how many simpletons will fall for this


Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.


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## bezi_NY (Feb 28, 2015)

No way! Enterprise is gonna pull out of this deal the same way Santander did lol Uber probably made a good job offer to the Enterprise ceo. Sell your shares of Enterprise boys Uber is gonna send them belly up!

Drivers will be speeding and abusing those cars so bad!! the yellow cabs in New York are gonna look good! I mean common!! Cab drivers used to make good money at least with yellow rentals! Imagine how postal Uber drivers renting cars are gonna be towards the Enterprise cars when they're not making as much as they thought they would? and how much a cancellation is gonna cost when that .25 a mile kicks in? Drivers will be like oh, you need to puke? just do it on the floor.lol


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Coachman said:


> _Renters also must leave a credit or debit card on file with Enterprise so it can deduct rental charges if the driver makes less from Uber than the rental car costs._
> 
> Uber makes money. Enterprise makes money. The credit card companies make money. Win - win - win!


POST # 3/Coachman: SING IT, BRO !
"The Love
of Money is the Root of ALL EVIL."

Bison: Thinking of You.............Travi$!


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

PoorBasterd said:


> Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.


POST # 104/PoorBasterd: P.T.BARNUM
once was quoted
saying, "Never Overestimate the Intelli-
gence of the American Public."

Bison: First name....Phineas?


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

SECOTIME said:


> http://arstechnica.com/business/201...-uber-is-setting-drivers-up-with-rental-cars/
> 
> Remember kids, you have to pay $210 a week for a rental car but you can only drive 90 miles a day or pay 25 cents per mile
> 
> ...


POST # 1/SECOTIME: Thank You.........
not only for
this Hyperlinked "Ars Technica" Article...
BUT ALSO
the Text of the Article Itself. Nice touch!

Bison: Its all about the DETAILS.


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

rtaatl said:


> When I first started rentals or minivans weren't allowed..guess Uber had to stoop to new lows to keep cars on the road and keep the facade going that they're a transportation business.


POST # 20/rtaatl: "...keep the facade
going that
they're a Transportation..." ah... um...
HARUMPH! " TECHNOLOGY bidne$$!

Bison: Any similarities between Anti-
Personnel LLC and a Transportation
Enterprise is TOTALLY COINCIDENTAL..
seriously...Totes!...F'sure....Word.


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> *Uber Launches Insane "Pay-to-Work" Car Rental Program *


POST # 24/chi1cabby: Where in God's
name is Susan
Powter when we need her? Remember...
haircut "high & tight" and bleached daily?

Bison: "Stop the Insanity!"


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

CommanderXL said:


> This is simplified because I don't address the per-minute portion of the fare, which is so minor it's almost inconsequential. I also don't consider surge pricing. It's also "best case" in the sense that you would be lucky to sell 4 out of 5 miles driven. It's probably more like 2 paid for every 5 driven. Also, feel free to correct me for any errors.
> 
> *Part I: Upfront Costs*
> 
> ...


POST # 28/CommanderXL: Thanks for
"Going Long Form"
on this! I'm game...where do I sign up?

Bison: SMH!


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

REBURENTRAP said:


> Uber-the greatest part of their business strategy is the physiological games they play on uneducated,desperate,uninformed so called Partners. ...


POST # 41/REBURENTRAP: You have
achieved Enlightenment
after only 1 Post, Grasshopper! Great!
Now you can apply for that Position
as Part Time Bodhisattva.

Bison: Ommmmmmmmmm....


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Uber-Doober said:


> ^^^
> Physiological or psychological? lol
> Psychological for Uber's head games.... Physiological for the diarrhea that the thought of Travis gives.
> He's ten times more effective than Ex-Lax but not to be taken by anyone without a psychiatrist's approval.
> Take one Travis three hours before bedtime, and preferably wear something leak proof.


POST # 63/Uber-Doober: Thank you
for Evacuative
Suggestion! Sure beats the Colono-
scopical Intrusion of "App Permissions!"

Bison: MerryChristmas from Marco Island!


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Toleshi said:


> Uh, yeah. Was almost an idiot. I did the interview, paperwork. Drove home and asked myself if I was fn nuts. In Las Vegas, they can't do airport, not really getting kickbacks from strip clubs and massage place. I'm just going back to drive a cab instead. This renter program is psychotic.


POST # 85/Toleshi: "PSYCHOTIC" just
like the Hypomanic,
Sociopathic CEO who envisions him-
self as "Big Brother" from George Orwell's
Dystopian Novel "1984", his August Exi-
gency, #Travis K. Whatapr♤♡k!

Bison: "Life Changing $$$$$"...Pffffft !!


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## bezi_NY (Feb 28, 2015)

Casuale Haberdasher said:


> POST # 104/PoorBasterd: P.T.BARNUM
> once was quoted
> saying, "Never Overestimate the Intelli-
> gence of the American Public."
> ...


And our American government spends more per pupil than any other country in the world to keep that intelligence level right where it is! And at the ready to spend more if need be to lower it!!


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