# 2017 11 16...EMAIL: Changes to your Services Agreement (driver-partners)



## Hugh G (Sep 22, 2016)




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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

And this change is income neutral to drivers. (Effectively) Uber could have paid the gst but have elected to add it to the top of their fee.

Uber should not have added 10% to the service fees but simply made them GST inclusive and then drivers would have earned more.
For example on the $10 fare, the Uber fees should have been $2 (18 cents gst included) or $2.50 (23 cents gst), Not $2.20 and $2.75


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Paul Collins said:


> And this change is income neutral to drivers. (Effectively) Uber could have paid the gst but have elected to add it to the top of their fee.


This change is also income neutral to Uber.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

UberDriverAU said:


> This change is also income neutral to Uber.


Correct. The Uber fee should have always been gst inclusive at 20 or 25%. This way they effectively get out of paying what they always should have been paying.


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## ST DYMPHNA son (Aug 10, 2017)

...there is a something there that even a "jack hammer" would not help...


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Paul Collins said:


> Correct. The Uber fee should have always been gst inclusive at 20 or 25%. This way they effectively get out of paying what they always should have been paying.


How do you figure that, given the "Netflix Tax" amendments to the GST law came into effect on the 1st of July 2017? Their fee could not have been GST inclusive prior to that date.


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## Where to Mister? (Jul 16, 2017)

As I am also a Uber passenger on occasion, I would expect to receive a notification that the rate would go up by an additional 10% due to GST. And I haven’t got one of those notifications.
But hang on, the rates were always inclusive of GST before so there’s no net increase for riders.
So, what’s happening is that Uber will now provide a GST-inclusive invoice to their driver partners. Ability to claim the GST component of their charge. Isn’t this what we have all been calling for? 
YES! Hooray!


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Where to Mister? said:


> Ability to claim the GST component of their charge. Isn't this what we have all been calling for?
> YES! Hooray!


It's what a lot of drivers have been screaming for, but there is no net difference to drivers' bottom line. Makes you wonder why there's been so much screaming, doesn't it?


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

UberDriverAU said:


> It's what a lot of drivers have been screaming for, but there is no net difference to drivers' bottom line. Makes you wonder why there's been so much screaming, doesn't it?


Because the 20 and 25% should have been gst inclusive.


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Paul Collins said:


> Because the 20 and 25% should have been gst inclusive.


Should have, would have, but couldn't.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

UberDriverAU said:


> Should have, would have, but couldn't.


Uber could have charged their fee on the total fare ex gst. Still could.

Section 28.2 looks like trouble.

'of
Rasier Pacific, Uber or any of their affiliates, you undertake and agree to indemnify, defend (at Rasier Pacific's and
Uber's option) and hold Rasier Pacific, Uber and any of their affiliates harmless from and against any claims by any
person, entity, regulators or governmental authorities based on such implied employment, agency or representative
relationship. The indemnity set out in this clause 28.2, insofar as it relates to a finding by a judicial body or legislative
authority of competent jurisdiction that there is an employment relationship between you and Rasier Pacific, Uber or
any of their affiliates, applies only to that proportion of Rasier Pacific's or Uber's liability that directly or indirectly
relates to you holding yourself out to be an employee of Rasier Pacific or Uber or any of their affiliates, or any other
act or omission by you that is not expressly authorised by Rasier Pacific or Uber and would reasonably suggest to a
third party that you are an employee of Rasier Pacific or Uber or any of their affiliates. You expressly agree that
where required or implied by applicable law or otherwise, you may be deemed an employee, agent or representative
of Rasier Pacific, Uber or an Affiliate of Rasier Pacific or Uber, any payments made to you will be taken to be inclusive
of (i) superannuation contribution amounts; and (ii) amounts equivalent to all taxes (including but not limited to
income taxes) payable by you in respect of those payments, in each case that Rasier Pacific or Uber (or any of their
affiliates) may otherwise be required to pay under applicable law.'


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## Beepbeep41 (Apr 25, 2017)

So basically Uber is just being more transparent in saying there take is %22 or %27.5 and we can claim GST credits on the $2.50 service fee??


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Paul Collins said:


> Uber could have charged their fee on the total fare ex gst. Still could.


... which is exactly what they'll be doing from the 1st of December. If you want to continue to complain about their take, you're going to have to find an avenue besides GST to argue it, as any GST related misunderstandings vanish from the 1st of December. They will be paying their share of GST, and they will be taking their stated commission from the excluding GST amount, and you get GST credits even if you've given them your ABN and GST details. You have nothing left to complain about that is GST related.


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## Beepbeep41 (Apr 25, 2017)

Paul Collins said:


> Uber could have charged their fee on the total fare ex gst. Still could.
> 
> Section 28.2 looks like trouble.
> 
> ...


Looks look like we agree that any payments made to us from Uber or the Aussie Uber (Rasier Pacific) includes super & tax.


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Beepbeep41 said:


> So basically Uber is just being more transparent in saying there take is %22 or %27.5 and we can claim GST credits on the $2.50 service fee??


Uber has always been transparent (in Australia anyway) about how much they will be taking from each fare. The way it'll work from the 1st of December simply aligns better with people's expectations of how it should work, even though there is no net difference to anyone's bottom line.


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## Beepbeep41 (Apr 25, 2017)

UberDriverAU said:


> Uber has always been transparent (in Australia anyway) about how much they will be taking from each fare. The way it'll work from the 1st of December simply aligns better with people's expectations of how it should work, even though there is no net difference to their bottom line.


Looks that way, cheers.


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Beepbeep41 said:


> Looks look like we agree that any payments made to us from Uber or the Aussie Uber (Rasier Pacific) includes super & tax.


That will be null and void if we're found to be employees.


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## Instyle (Oct 18, 2014)

Highlighted a couple of interesting clauses.

Fares & fees
Other than the GST changes to the service fee explained above, there are no changes to your service fee or fares at this time. However, there will be some changes to the fare and service fee provisions of the agreement to allow flexibility for new ways of doing things. In particular, Rasier will have the right to change the model used to determine the service fee. You would always receive at least 14 days notice before this happened and of course it's your choice whether you agree to the change by continuing to use the Uber Services.

As you may be aware, in some circumstances the fare you charge your riders can be adjusted (e.g. for inefficient route or technical error). However, in more serious situations like fraud or rider complaints, or for payment processing errors, Rasier will have the right to cancel or require you to reimburse a fare by various means, including deducting these amounts from future fares owed to you or debiting your card on file or bank account on record.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

UberDriverAU said:


> ... which is exactly what they'll be doing from the 1st of December. If you want to continue to complain about their take, you're going to have to find an avenue besides GST to argue it, as any GST related misunderstandings vanish from the 1st of December. They will be paying their share of GST, and they will be taking their stated commission from the excluding GST amount, and you get GST credits even if you've given them your ABN and GST details. You have nothing left to complain about that is GST related.


No, Uber will be taking 22 and 27.5% of the total fare that is inclusive of GST. Uber are still taking a fee on a tax.
Before you bang on about merchant fees, they are gst inclusive in their fees, they do not add 10% onto their fees.



Instyle said:


> Highlighted a couple of interesting clauses.
> 
> Fares & fees
> Other than the GST changes to the service fee explained above, there are no changes to your service fee or fares at this time. However, there will be some changes to the fare and service fee provisions of the agreement to allow flexibility for new ways of doing things. In particular, Rasier will have the right to change the model used to determine the service fee. You would always receive at least 14 days notice before this happened and of course it's your choice whether you agree to the change by continuing to use the Uber Services.
> ...


Payment processing errors? Wtf? Sounds like GoC and their stuff ups.
I certainly have not given Uber any authority at all to take money from my bank account.


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## 888 (Nov 8, 2017)

Hi Paul,
Thanks for bringing this up in this forum. I have enjoyed my Uber engagement but Uber's treatment of GST has always annoyed me. The treatment of GST as outlined by Uber and to take effect from 1 December is as I would expect and is consistent with Australian GST law. No "facilitator" special treatment! 

Thankyou for doing the right thing Uber.

Regards,
888


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

888 said:


> Hi Paul,
> Thanks for bringing this up in this forum. I have enjoyed my Uber engagement but Uber's treatment of GST has always annoyed me. The treatment of GST as outlined by Uber and to take effect from 1 December is as I would expect and is consistent with Australian GST law. No "facilitator" special treatment!
> 
> Thankyou for doing the right thing Uber.
> ...


They are not doing the right thing at all. 
If they were going to do the right thing the 20 and 25% should be made gst inclusive.


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## 888 (Nov 8, 2017)

I only paid the GST on the monies I received and I expect other drivers were doing the same ( not paying GST on full fare). That left a 2.5% GST deficit to the ATO. I expect that the ATO found it easier to get the GST from Uber than to chase individual driver partners for the Uber portion of the GST.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

888 said:


> I only paid the GST on the monies I received and I expect other drivers were doing the same ( not paying GST on full fare). That left a 2.5% GST deficit to the ATO. I expect that the ATO found it easier to get the GST from Uber than to chase individual driver partners for the Uber portion of the GST.


Then you were not following ATO direction and are at risk. I doubt many at all were only paying gst on money received.


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## 888 (Nov 8, 2017)

Thats right. It's my risk.


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## Dontmakemepullauonyou (Oct 13, 2015)

UberDriverAU said:


> This change is also income neutral to Uber.


No change is ever income neutral to uber.


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Dontmakemepullauonyou said:


> No change is ever income neutral to uber.


I'm not sure what your definition of "income neutral" is, but if they're not making more or less because of a change, the change is indeed income neutral.



Paul Collins said:


> No, Uber will be taking 22 and 27.5% of the total fare that is inclusive of GST.


The unfortunate reality of GST is that if you take an _x_% inc GST commission, it is both _x_% of the GST exclusive amount, and _x_% of the GST inclusive amount. It's a mathematical impossibility for it to be otherwise. What is your idea for getting around this mathematical impossibility? It doesn't matter what percentage you set the commission at, the GST exclusive and GST inclusive percentages will always be the same.


Paul Collins said:


> Uber are still taking a fee on a tax.
> Before you bang on about merchant fees, they are gst inclusive in their fees, they do not add 10% onto their fees.


As you're so against businesses passing on the GST, have you lowered your prices by 1/11th so that you completely absorb the GST? It's completely unethical of you to pass on GST and expect your customers to foot your GST bill. I would hate for you to be a hypocrite, so please advise us when you will have this done by.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

UberDriverAU said:


> I'm not sure what your definition of "income neutral" is, but if they're not making more or less because of a change, the change is indeed income neutral.
> 
> The unfortunate reality of GST is that if you take an _x_% inc GST commission, it is both _x_% of the GST exclusive amount, and _x_% of the GST inclusive amount. It's a mathematical impossibility for it to be otherwise. What is your idea for getting around this mathematical impossibility? It doesn't matter what percentage you set the commission at, the GST exclusive and GST inclusive percentages will always be the same.
> 
> As you're so against businesses passing on the GST, have you lowered your prices by 1/11th so that you completely absorb the GST? It's completely unethical of you to pass on GST and expect your customers to foot your GST bill. I would hate for you to be a hypocrite, so please advise us when you will have this done by.


The 20 and 25% should have been gst inclusive. Simples enough for even me to understand.


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Paul Collins said:


> The 20 and 25% should have been gst inclusive. Simples enough for even me to understand. The rest of your post is dribble.


That would involve changing their commission. Why don't you pick up the phone and tell your Uber management buddies they should change their commission? Let us know how many of the management team drop dead on the floor laughing at your proposal. Most of your posts are dribble, Paul. You can't understand simple mathematics or logic.


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Paul Collins said:


> Oh, and yes I can pick up the phone at any time and talk to Uber management as opposed to an anonymous bot, who can not.


And look how far that's got you, or anyone else. Besides the warm fuzzy feelings you get, you've not achieved much. How's that 2 cent per km rate rise coming along?



Paul Collins said:


> Try yoga.


I have, it's worked wonders for my flexibility.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

UberDriverAU said:


> And look how far that's got you, or anyone else. Besides the warm fuzzy feelings you get, you've not achieved much. How's that 2 cent per km rate rise coming along?


You have no idea what has been achieved. You make assumptions and that is your problem.


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## 888 (Nov 8, 2017)

Paul, I will respond to you when I have more time and not so tired. 

Regards,
888


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## pajala (Apr 24, 2016)

UberDriverAU said:


> ... which is exactly what they'll be doing from the 1st of December. If you want to continue to complain about their take, you're going to have to find an avenue besides GST to argue it, as any GST related misunderstandings vanish from the 1st of December. They will be paying their share of GST, and they will be taking their stated commission from the excluding GST amount, and you get GST credits even if you've given them your ABN and GST details. You have nothing left to complain about that is GST related.


So will this mean the end of drivers having to remit the 5 cent booking fee. If I am reading this correctly this now means Uber is required to remit its own GST and there for the GST applicable to the Booking Fee is now the responsibility of Uber to remit to the ATO?

Drive your own path


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

pajala said:


> So will this mean the end of drivers having to remit the 5 cent booking fee. If I am reading this correctly this now means Uber is required to remit its own GST and there for the GST applicable to the Booking Fee is now the responsibility of Uber to remit to the ATO?
> 
> Drive your own path


In practice yes. We still have a 5 cent GST liability, but we'll be able to claim a GST credit for the GST that Uber pays which cancels out our liability.


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## 888 (Nov 8, 2017)

Hi Paul,
It sounds like you followed ATO GST guidelines for rideshare drivers and have paid GST on the full fare. In my opinion you will be 2.5% better off after the change is implemented 1 December 2017. From that date, drivers will pay GST on the 72.5% of fare received and Uber will collect GST portion by way of the increased Uber Service Fee 27.5% (see service fee addendum). Since you are now able to claim a GST input credit on the Uber GST component, you are 2.5% better off.

Currently, it is an annoying and costly fact that Uber collect 25% of the full fare (which includes GST) and left the driver partner with the full GST liability. As of 1 December the situation will be correctected. Unfortunately, BAS for the quarter will be more complex since the change occurs during the period.

Regards,
888


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

888 said:


> Hi Paul,
> It sounds like you followed ATO GST guidelines for rideshare drivers and have paid GST on the full fare. In my opinion you will be 2.5% better off after the change is implemented 1 December 2017. From that date, drivers will pay GST on the 72.5% of fare received and Uber will collect GST portion by way of the increased Uber Service Fee 27.5% (see service fee addendum). Since you are now able to claim a GST input credit on the Uber GST component, you are 2.5% better off.
> 
> Currently, it is an annoying and costly fact that Uber collect 25% of the full fare (which includes GST) and left the driver partner with the full GST liability. As of 1 December the situation will be correctected. Unfortunately, BAS for the quarter will be more complex since the change occurs during the period.
> ...


Thanks, but I think you are incorrect. From Dec 1, the GST payable is still on the full fare inc GST. No change to that.
Ubers fees of 20 and 25% should have changed to be GST inclusive, rather they have added 10% to the top of their fees.
The Dec 1 changes are income neutral to drivers.


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## 888 (Nov 8, 2017)

The ATO only expect 10% GST to be collected not 12.5%. Today, after the Uber email, there is an inconsistency between ATO advice and Uber changes.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

888 said:


> The ATO only expect 10% GST to be collected not 12.5%. Today, after the Uber email, there is an inconsistency between ATO advice and Uber changes.


Ah yes, it remains as 1/11 of the total fare with driver paying the full GST and then getting a GST credit from the uber fees. Sorry, I can not follow your thinking.
Could you outline some numbers/example to consider please?


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## ST DYMPHNA son (Aug 10, 2017)

Paul Collins said:


> And so I should be schooled by an anonymous bot? Hahahahaha.
> An 'intelligent' anonymous bot.... too funny. Why do you hide? Must have something to hide I suspect.
> Oh, and yes I can pick up the phone at any time and talk to Uber management as opposed to an anonymous bot, who can not.


I have talked to my mate at uber,no one knows you there.Keep dreaming about yourself


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> I have talked to my mate at uber,no one knows you there.Keep dreaming about yourself


You talked to Uber Brisbane management? I doubt that.


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## ST DYMPHNA son (Aug 10, 2017)

Paul Collins said:


> You talked to Uber Brisbane management? I doubt that. You are an anonymous bot and nothing you say can or will be taken seriously.


..Not Brisbane uber,talked directly to Dara,he said that someone annoys uber cleaners in Queensland but uber can not do anything about cos the Mental Act


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## 888 (Nov 8, 2017)

Paul, that advice from the ATO is probably relevant up until 30 November. It is no longer correct in the context of Uber changes that come into effect from 1 December 2017.


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## UberDriverAU (Nov 4, 2015)

Paul Collins said:


> Ubers fees of 20 and 25% should have changed to be GST inclusive,


Many believe you should stop whining and whining about the same thing, but alas there's about as much chance of that happening as Uber changing their service fee to 20% and 25%.


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## Paul Collins (Dec 12, 2016)

888 said:


> Paul, that advice from the ATO is probably relevant up until 30 November. It is no longer correct in the context of Uber changes that come into effect from 1 December 2017.


The ATO advice was to pay GST on the total fare as 1/11. All that has changed is now we pay the 1/11 and we get a GST credit for the uber fee.



UberDriverAU said:


> Many believe you should stop whining and whining about the same thing, but alas there's about as much chance of that happening as Uber changing their service fee to 20% and 25%.


I though the 'intelligent' bot was not going to troll. Seems I was wrong.
'Many' so now you represent drivers?
So be it. On topic, I will respond, off topic trolling and you can shout into your dark corner.
Perhaps, you in your wisdom, could try and understand what 888 is posting and comment?


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## ST DYMPHNA son (Aug 10, 2017)

Paul Collins said:


> The ATO advice was to pay GST on the total fare as 1/11. All that has changed is now we pay the 1/11 and we get a GST credit for the uber fee.


...there is no proof to anything you have ever stated ,most of the time your knowledge about tax law is wrong,have you compiled to what ATO is forcing you to do ???,when you fix it maybe you will have something to contribute


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## 888 (Nov 8, 2017)

Paul,
I have been through GST worked example on Uber Blog link provided in the recent email and realise I made incorrect statements about GST. Apologies to everyone.

Regards,
888


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## Hugh G (Sep 22, 2016)

Here we go again !

Round and Round we go !






I'm right, you're wrong !

Why doesn't anybody understand this beside me !










What is the matter with you people !


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## ST DYMPHNA son (Aug 10, 2017)

Paul Collins said:


> You have no idea what has been achieved. You make assumptions and that is your problem.


Please,please,tell us more as so far all your achievements can be summarize to one big nothing...


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## ST DYMPHNA son (Aug 10, 2017)

Paul Collins said:


> The 20 and 25% should have been gst inclusive. Simples enough for even me to understand.


I can feel your pain,we are all looking at same things about GST,right?and still so many people can not see it!!!!!!!!!!!
It's like looking at the Sun,every one can see that it is the Sun that is moving!!!!!!!!!!!!!or is it other way around ????


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## Who is John Galt? (Sep 28, 2016)

ST DYMPHNA son said:


> I can feel your pain,we are all looking at same things about GST,right?and still so many people can not see it!!!!!!!!!!!
> It's like looking at the Sun,every one can see that it is the Sun that is moving!!!!!!!!!!!!!or is it other way around ????


 SAINT  , it is very interesting that you draw an analogy with looking at the Sun. What I see is a similarly relevant analogy with Icarus. It appears our hero has been given wings constructed from feathers and wax, to take flight and escape from his GST tormentors, and he has been warned of complacency and then of hubris, being asked that he fly neither too low nor too high, so the sea's dampness would not clog his wings or the sun's heat melt them.

But our hero always knows better.

Icarus ignored his father's instructions not to fly too close to the sun; when the wax in his wings melted he tumbled out of the sky and fell into the sea where he drowned.

.


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## SolsUber101 (Jan 28, 2016)

It's easy the Saint and Uber driver work for UBER..so sad!!

Driving Uber you meet the good people and then you meet the scum of the earth!!


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## fruber (Jul 23, 2017)

Having read this email a few times now, i'm thinking it only affects Uber X drivers, NOT Uber Eats drivers? (unless you do both)

Uber Eats exclusive drivers don't pay GST (unless they earn over 75k)


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