# If Uber is not profitable now, will it ever be?



## osii (Aug 21, 2014)

They're taking about 50% of every fare on average. Even in markets where there are some bonus's available, they never lose money overall. They're already charging some customers taxi rates. They are cleaning up in pool markets.

Their costs are the ap, payment processing, insurance, and management.

They don't pay for the cars. 

Self driving cars capable of highway speeds are probably 50 years away. I know, I know, just think about it. Currently, truly autonomous cars are just a step above an office mail delivery device.


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## ABC123DEF (Jun 9, 2015)

Nah...the decent years ended in 2016...and everything was quickly going downhill even then.


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## SickOfThisSh (Oct 15, 2017)

They lose money cause they have to offer insane incentives to new drivers.


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## gofry (Oct 20, 2015)

They can only make money if they increase fares radically. However, the current management is not really concerned about quarterly profits, they are setting up the company to go public (issue stock) and cash out. Whoever buys them will have to sort out the long-term profitability. Ultimately, Uber will look like and cost as much as a yellow cab. The self-driving thing is many, many years away.


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

gofry said:


> They can only make money if they increase fares radically. However, the current management is not really concerned about quarterly profits, they are setting up the company to go public (issue stock) and cash out. Whoever buys them will have to sort out the long-term profitability. Ultimately, Uber will look like and cost as much as a yellow cab. The self-driving thing is many, many years away.


if they don't get sued into oblivion first... There's always that little detail.

A billion to google, a billion to some drivers, a billion in ADA fines... the possibilities are endless there.


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## Leo1983 (Jul 3, 2017)

osii said:


> They're taking about 50% of every fare on average. Even in markets where there are some bonus's available, they never lose money overall. They're already charging some customers taxi rates. They are cleaning up in pool markets.
> 
> Their costs are the ap, payment processing, insurance, and management.
> 
> ...


Uber is majorly profitable for the ones in charge. By keeping the company this way they don't pay taxes yet still get money from investors. Look at the president claimed a billion dollar loss and hasn't paid taxes in ten years. 
This is the only way to become obscenely wealth by working the system. 
Top 1% didn't make a trillion dollars last year and still got a 1.5 trillion tax cut by mistake. 
It's all calculated and a legal scam. Well now it's legal since corporations and special interests took over America.


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## NieceeHoglett (Feb 5, 2018)

I've only worked 3 days and am having a blast. However, after reading some posts, I looked at what I'm getting paid in Hot Springs, AR for UberXL (2017 RAV4 Hybrid). Base Fare $.94, Distance $.57/mile, Time $.11/min. I only got about 3 tips on 15 rides. Am I getting screwed? Is this the same you all are getting paid in different parts of the country? Also, when I cancel a trip after I have accepted it, how much does it cost me? I can't find a direct answer. I've also seen cars that with LYFT/UBER signs on the side of their cars. Where can I get one? Thanks!


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## Leo1983 (Jul 3, 2017)

NieceeHoglett said:


> I've only worked 3 days and am having a blast. However, after reading some posts, I looked at what I'm getting paid in Hot Springs, AR for UberXL (2017 RAV4 Hybrid). Base Fare $.94, Distance $.57/mile, Time $.11/min. I only got about 3 tips on 15 rides. Am I getting screwed? Is this the same you all are getting paid in different parts of the country? Also, when I cancel a trip after I have accepted it, how much does it cost me? I can't find a direct answer. I've also seen cars that with LYFT/UBER signs on the side of their cars. Where can I get one? Thanks!


Lol for XL a big fat YES! You're actually losing money with those rates lol wow why would you do it?


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## gofry (Oct 20, 2015)

Leo1983 said:


> Uber is majorly profitable for the ones in charge. By keeping the company this way they don't pay taxes yet still get money from investors. Look at the president claimed a billion dollar loss and hasn't paid taxes in ten years.
> This is the only way to become obscenely wealth by working the system.
> Top 1% didn't make a trillion dollars last year and still got a 1.5 trillion tax cut by mistake.
> It's all calculated and a legal scam. Well now it's legal since corporations and special interests took over America.


Actually, it's the super wealthy that pay the majority of the taxes in this country. It's something like the upper 10% pay 90% of taxes and 25% of the lower income people pay nothing.


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## Leo1983 (Jul 3, 2017)

gofry said:


> Actually, it's the super wealthy that pay the majority of the taxes in this country. It's something like the upper 10% pay 90% of taxes and 25% of the lower income people pay nothing.


They pay on earned income then declare a loss and get that back too. They pay zero taxes on the majority of income which is none earned. There's a reason why the top 1% made a trillion dollars last year and got another 1.5 in tax cuts over the next ten. 
So good luck at earning $8 an hr for the rest of your lives and always being just a little behind every month. And wondering what more could I do?!
Stay blind my friend.


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## gofry (Oct 20, 2015)

Leo1983 said:


> They pay on earned income then declare a loss and get that back too. They pay zero taxes on the majority of income which is none earned. There's a reason why the top 1% made a trillion dollars last year and got another 1.5 in tax cuts over the next ten.
> So good luck at earning $8 an hr for the rest of your lives and always being just a little behind every month. And wondering what more could I do?!
> Stay blind my friend.


It's reassuring to see that this site has a financial and tax expert weighing in with specific, documented statistics and facts for us to all learn from.


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## Leo1983 (Jul 3, 2017)

gofry said:


> It's reassuring to see that this site has an expert financial and tax expert weighing in with specific, documented statistics and facts for us to all learn from.


Get back to me when your president can pronounce statistics. Until then enjoy your fare tax system. Lol


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

I am far from a tax expert but my google-fu is strong.

In 2014:
The top 1% of earners, 1,395,628 returns, paid 39.48% (at a rate of 27.16%) of all income taxes.
The top 5% of earners, 6,978,182 returns, paid 59.97% (at a rate of 23.61%) of all income taxes.
The top 10% of earners, 13,956,203 returns, paid 70.88% (at a rate of 21.25%) of all income taxes.
The top 25% of earners, 34,890,509 returns, paid 86.78% (at a rate of 17.83%) of all income taxes.
The top 50% of earners, 69,781,017 returns, paid 97.25% (at a rate of 15.52%) of all income taxes.
The bottom 50% of earners, 69,781,017 returns, paid 2.75% (at a rate of 3.45%) of all income taxes.

The total income tax collected was $1,374,379,000,000
The top 1% of earners paid -----------$542,640,000,000.
The bottom 50% of earners paid ------$37,740,000,000.

Then there is state income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, cell service taxes, import/export taxes, fica taxes, ...

Five score and six years ago the federal income tax was 0%. In 1913, no one who made under $75,000 (adjusted for inflation) paid any income taxes. Only 2% of the population paid any income tax. The max rate was 7%. So began the confiscation of personal property under the guise of taxation.


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## Bozzy (Jan 14, 2018)

They grew to quickly. 

Uber needs to do two things;

1) Scale Back - Stop adding new services and cut their internal workforce by 30%. 
2)Accept the fact they are not a ride share service and adjust their business model to revolve around Transportation Regulations.


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## osii (Aug 21, 2014)

NieceeHoglett said:


> I've only worked 3 days and am having a blast. However, after reading some posts, I looked at what I'm getting paid in Hot Springs, AR for UberXL (2017 RAV4 Hybrid). Base Fare $.94, Distance $.57/mile, Time $.11/min. I only got about 3 tips on 15 rides. Am I getting screwed? Is this the same you all are getting paid in different parts of the country? Also, when I cancel a trip after I have accepted it, how much does it cost me? I can't find a direct answer. I've also seen cars that with LYFT/UBER signs on the side of their cars. Where can I get one? Thanks!


OMG that's pitiful for x. It's nuts for xl in a 30k car. Stop doing this NOW.


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## Ogbootsy (Sep 12, 2016)

NieceeHoglett said:


> I've only worked 3 days and am having a blast. However, after reading some posts, I looked at what I'm getting paid in Hot Springs, AR for UberXL (2017 RAV4 Hybrid). Base Fare $.94, Distance $.57/mile, Time $.11/min. I only got about 3 tips on 15 rides. Am I getting screwed? Is this the same you all are getting paid in different parts of the country? Also, when I cancel a trip after I have accepted it, how much does it cost me? I can't find a direct answer. I've also seen cars that with LYFT/UBER signs on the side of their cars. Where can I get one? Thanks!


Ebay


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

osii said:


> They're taking about 50% of every fare on average. Even in markets where there are some bonus's available, they never lose money overall. They're already charging some customers taxi rates. They are cleaning up in pool markets.
> 
> Their costs are the ap, payment processing, insurance, and management.
> 
> ...


Never for Driver's.


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## himynameis (Feb 9, 2016)

No... the money is dead and so is uber!


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

gofry said:


> They can only make money if they increase fares radically. However, the current management is not really concerned about quarterly profits, they are setting up the company to go public (issue stock) and cash out. Whoever buys them will have to sort out the long-term profitability. Ultimately, Uber will look like and cost as much as a yellow cab. The self-driving thing is many, many years away.


Can't wait for the cars to show up with vomit and get hacked. Watch out for the telephone pole. Uh-oh, you're dead.


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## SurgeMasterMN (Sep 10, 2016)

My prediction is Uber will be dissolved by 2021. They have no profitability because they have been attempting to shake out the taxis and limos for years and still cannot. They need to match the prices of other transportation companies to make a profit. 

Self driving cars are way off and they cost a lot more then using other drivers for their vehicles. Right now Uber has ZERO operational costs when it comes to vehicles. How do they expect to turn a profit when they have to spend money on vehicles? They are in the red and have been for years with drivers using their own vehicles.

If a competitor to Lyft and Uber develops a new Rideshare app with a 10-15% commission cap on drivers income and the ability for drivers to set their price they will kill Uber & Lyft. There is a market for a 3rd company in rideshare that can win over drivers. Any company that can make it more profitable for the driver would gain mass adoption and driver migration would be instant once word spreads.


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## grq79 (Oct 6, 2015)

There are some major flaws; 80%-90% of drivers quit within a year, if they can't find a second pool Rider they lose $3 for every $1 dollar per ride, massive law suits that are never ending, their bench mark autonomous SUV is the worst model car to maintain a profit (mpg claims up to 22mpg in cities, most likely 15mpg), they spending billions on fancy offices like the one in SF by the warriors new stadium, I truly believe their accounting department is skimming money or cooking the books as well.

To maintain driver density is the major flaw, any business that has to backfill almost 100% of their labor is bound to fail. Plus there is no way the transition from regular drivers autonomous will happen before a) money runs out (most likely within 6 years) b) they are so desperate to launch autonomous fleets an accident will force local governments to roll back the program for human drivers, c) stake holders finally start suing when their IPO is defined as a Ponzi scheme.


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## Juggalo9er (Dec 7, 2017)

If you All would sign in and drive right now, you could make a difference


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## Drivincrazy (Feb 14, 2016)

OK...I'll get right out there. Not.


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## htboston (Feb 22, 2016)

SickOfThisSh said:


> They lose money cause they have to offer insane incentives to new drivers.


yeah, don't think giving every new driver an extra $500 for their first week is where they are losing huge amount of money. they're taking 40-50% of each fare and if the driver drives for a month then retires, they make that up and some more. they are losing drivers and not getting more newer ones

the smarter drivers are realizing this is a scam and retiring from rideshare.


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## Transporter_011 (Feb 3, 2018)

All they really need to do is add in one more misc fee that they don't have to pay the driver on and then boom!! Profits!!!!Profits everywhere!!


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## SickOfThisSh (Oct 15, 2017)

htboston said:


> yeah, don't think giving every new driver an extra $500 for their first week is where they are losing huge amount of money. they're taking 40-50% of each fare and if the driver drives for a month then retires, they make that up and some more. they are losing drivers and not getting more newer ones
> 
> the smarter drivers are realizing this is a scam and retiring from rideshare.


Sums it up. It varies by area. In some cities they pay really large incentives so that they have drivers on the road, their current turnover rate is 96% per year. Additionally, drivers who have been around awhile they have to pay incentives such as Quest etc. which comes entirely off their end of the profits.

Additionally, experienced drivers know how to zero in on more profitable rides. Thus the incentives for new drivers predominately are on top of short-minimum fare rides. So those incentives hurt even more. Basically it is an endless feedback loop. The volume of rides is a critical number for when they go public, it is a huge part of the formula that their calculation is placed on. The entire structure is built for these unprofitable, driver destroying, minimum fare rides to be swollen to the gills when they go public/run out of money.

They are simply betting that the IPO will beat the collapse and don't care who ends up holding the bag cause they will be long gone. When the rates have to be raised cause of no more investor cash, well, huge volume drop cause those shorties just can't be made profitable.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

osii said:


> They're taking about 50% of every fare on average. Even in markets where there are some bonus's available, they never lose money overall. They're already charging some customers taxi rates. They are cleaning up in pool markets.
> 
> Their costs are the ap, payment processing, insurance, and management.
> 
> ...


I've driven for a number of large transportation companies, and historically speaking, I would say no. Yellow, Checker, the major limo companies, all of them went belly up or are going to soon. Many of the taxi companies are now cooperatives, shifting the burden of overhead to drivers, so they plod along on the backs of drivers, as Uber is doing. uber is planning, eventually, to own a huge fleet of SDCs. I sincerely doubt they are going to be profitable. they current rate is about half of what taxis charge. That rate is not even a break even rate if uber had the burden of overhead on vehicles, and they think that by removing the driver, they will be able to charge less than they are charging now? I sincerely doubt it. And when they find out they can't, after investing hundreds of millions into them, well, i predict a boondoggle on an epic scale.

I've heard the arguments, and the big one is the "Amazon" model. Thing is, historically speaking, department stores are profitable, or much more so than transportation companies. So, I doubt that example will work for Uber.

I believe this so much I'm actually considering investing in a San Diego taxi medallion. You can buy one now for the the city price of $3k. Before Uber, they were worth about $100k. Should the rideshare industry collapse, and they will if they continue to lose money, those medallions will go back up in value.



gofry said:


> They can only make money if they increase fares radically. However, the current management is not really concerned about quarterly profits, they are setting up the company to go public (issue stock) and cash out. Whoever buys them will have to sort out the long-term profitability. Ultimately, Uber will look like and cost as much as a yellow cab. The self-driving thing is many, many years away.


If they IPO, buy a block and short sell it. That's my advice.


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## mrpjfresh (Aug 16, 2016)

If they cannot turn a profit with drivers using their own cars, skirting traditional regulations, outsourcing their support and charging the customers whatever the heck they want then, no, they never will. It is truly mind boggling how much money they actually burn through.

The only way I see for them to truly be profitable would be for them to change - by choice or force - the _entire_ business model. No more dreams of transportation dominance or flying cars, no flooding cities with thousands of loosely regulated rideshare cars, vetted drivers, etc. Right now it looks more like a sad attempt to cash out on an IPO than a sustainable business model. I would be shocked if it makes it into the next decade as anything but a neutered, shell of its former self (unless of course if they sell out).

Raising (customer) rates to where it is cost-competitive will see new players enter into the fray. The adults will have better software, a better reputation and the distinct advantage of having this rideshare thing already established and defined in most markets. The funniest thing will be the mass exodus of drivers (even riders) to these other companies. If you foster no loyalty, behave recklessly and treat your workforce like shit, do not be surprised when that sentiment is returned.


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## himynameis (Feb 9, 2016)

Uber will be out of business 3 years max. Company is a joke!


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## Mars Troll Number 4 (Oct 30, 2015)

mrpjfresh said:


> If they cannot turn a profit with drivers using their own cars, skirting traditional regulations, outsourcing their support and charging the customers whatever the heck they want then, no, they never will. It is truly mind boggling how much money they actually burn through.
> 
> The only way I see for them to truly be profitable would be for them to change - by choice or force - the _entire_ business model. No more dreams of transportation dominance or flying cars, no flooding cities with thousands of loosely regulated rideshare cars, vetted drivers, etc. Right now it looks more like a sad attempt to cash out on an IPO than a sustainable business model. I would be shocked if it makes it into the next decade as anything but a neutered, shell of its former self (unless of course if they sell out).
> 
> Raising (customer) rates to where it is cost-competitive will see new players enter into the fray. The adults will have better software, a better reputation and the distinct advantage of having this rideshare thing already established and defined in most markets. The funniest thing will be the mass exodus of drivers (even riders) to these other companies. If you foster no loyalty, behave recklessly and treat your workforce like shit, do not be surprised when that sentiment is returned.


It's getting to the point where doubling customer rates here in orlando puts them very close to taxis in price.
The grown ups running things will be the cab companies again.


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