# Quick question on my Uber taxes



## Srick7583 (Sep 5, 2015)

Hello everybody,

I used to Uber drive during the summer of last year for about four months, made about $5000 in earnings. I have a question, say if I saved all my gas receipts, lunch receipts, maintenance, payment statements for my auto loan etc and work a part time job, will I owe the government money basically? I have all my reciepts for $3k worth of recipts for everything strictly for Uber driving but I used most of the money to pay bills, rent, gas etc and on top of that my car was involved in a auto accident which I wasn't able to get a new vehicle so now I'm stuck trying to find a secondary job to keep up with my bills. I'm just hoping that I don't get screwed on filing for taxes as I just work part-time and I don't have a car on top of that. I would love to drive again for Uber but I'm just hoping all goes well this year for taxes, I've never gotten screwed by the IRS and I was just trying to get a second opinion from fellow Uber drivers. Thanks for your time


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## npgreen3 (Jan 19, 2016)

Srick7583 said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I used to Uber drive during the summer of last year for about four months, made about $5000 in earnings. I have a question, say if I saved all my gas receipts, lunch receipts, maintenance, payment statements for my auto loan etc and work a part time job, will I owe the government money basically? I have all my reciepts for $3k worth of recipts for everything strictly for Uber driving but I used most of the money to pay bills, rent, gas etc and on top of that my car was involved in a auto accident which I wasn't able to get a new vehicle so now I'm stuck trying to find a secondary job to keep up with my bills. I'm just hoping that I don't get screwed on filing for taxes as I just work part-time and I don't have a car on top of that. I would love to drive again for Uber but I'm just hoping all goes well this year for taxes, I've never gotten screwed by the IRS and I was just trying to get a second opinion from fellow Uber drivers. Thanks for your time


You can deduct all of this to offset how much you owe in taxes. Don't forget you can also deduct the all the miles you drove. I think you have enough that you won't owe any taxes for uber.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Srick7583 said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I used to Uber drive during the summer of last year for about four months, made about $5000 in earnings. I have a question, say if I saved all my gas receipts, lunch receipts, maintenance, payment statements for my auto loan etc and work a part time job, will I owe the government money basically? I have all my reciepts for $3k worth of recipts for everything strictly for Uber driving but I used most of the money to pay bills, rent, gas etc and on top of that my car was involved in a auto accident which I wasn't able to get a new vehicle so now I'm stuck trying to find a secondary job to keep up with my bills. I'm just hoping that I don't get screwed on filing for taxes as I just work part-time and I don't have a car on top of that. I would love to drive again for Uber but I'm just hoping all goes well this year for taxes, I've never gotten screwed by the IRS and I was just trying to get a second opinion from fellow Uber drivers. Thanks for your time


Do you have a mileage log for your uber driving?


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## notfussy (Oct 14, 2015)

How do I make a mileage log


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## StarzykCPA (Aug 6, 2015)

Srick7583 said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I used to Uber drive during the summer of last year for about four months, made about $5000 in earnings. I have a question, say if I saved all my gas receipts, lunch receipts, maintenance, payment statements for my auto loan etc and work a part time job, will I owe the government money basically? I have all my reciepts for $3k worth of recipts for everything strictly for Uber driving but I used most of the money to pay bills, rent, gas etc and on top of that my car was involved in a auto accident which I wasn't able to get a new vehicle so now I'm stuck trying to find a secondary job to keep up with my bills. I'm just hoping that I don't get screwed on filing for taxes as I just work part-time and I don't have a car on top of that. I would love to drive again for Uber but I'm just hoping all goes well this year for taxes, I've never gotten screwed by the IRS and I was just trying to get a second opinion from fellow Uber drivers. Thanks for your time


You'll probably be okay, but I am just guessing. Without all the details, it's tough to say.


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## anna molly (Jan 24, 2015)

You'll get a separate form in addition to your 1099 with a breakdown I'd how Uber came to the total shown on your 1099. It will only show your on-trip mileage total, so if you didn't keep track of your mileage when you didn't have a rider in the car, you can guesstimate. If you rented an Uber phone the total amount you paid is included as earnings and the Uber percentage is also part of your earnings total. I think that the rider fees are also part of your total earnings, but I'd have to look back to last year.


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## UberPissed (Aug 13, 2014)

notfussy said:


> How do I make a mileage log


Get a time machine.


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## Altima ATL (Jul 13, 2015)

I would see a tax accountant - if you lost your vehicle in an accident - then maybe you could write off that against the taxes as well.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberPissed said:


> Get a time machine.


LOL.


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## LindaVMorgan (Jan 28, 2016)

notfussy said:


> How do I make a mileage log


At this point you would really have to go back and recreate your log.

There is a smart phone app called MileIQ that I recommend to all my bookkeeping clients. For $6 a month, it will allow you to classify every where you go, you can add notes, enter tolls and parking expenses. And then you email your log to yourself every month. This meets all the IRS criteria for a written log.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

LindaVMorgan said:


> At this point you would really have to go back and recreate your log.


But as has been discussed in several threads here, the IRS requires "contemporaneous " mileage logs, so a recreated one may not fly in case of an audit.


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## LindaVMorgan (Jan 28, 2016)

Older Chauffeur said:


> But as has been discussed in several threads here, the IRS requires "contemporaneous " mileage logs, so a recreated one may not fly in case of an audit.


Absolutely. But, IRS Pub 463 says this regarding inadequate records: 

*"What If I Have Incomplete Records?*
If you do not have complete records to prove an element of an expense, then you must prove the element with:

Your own written or oral statement containing specific information about the element, and
Other supporting evidence that is sufficient to establish the element.
If the element is the description of a gift, or the cost, time, place, or date of an expense, the supporting evidence must be either direct evidence or documentary evidence. Direct evidence can be written statements or the oral testimony of your guests or other witnesses setting forth detailed information about the element. Documentary evidence can be receipts, paid bills, or similar evidence.

If the element is either the business relationship of your guests or the business purpose of the amount spent, the supporting evidence can be circumstantial rather than direct. For example, the nature of your work, such as making deliveries, provides circumstantial evidence of the use of your car for business purposes. Invoices of deliveries establish when you used the car for business." (Taken from irs.gov)

So, basically, if you can produce all the material you used to recreate the log ~ and it is valid supporting documentation ~ the Auditor will probably accept it. Business calendars, meal receipts, and other stuff like that are all great places to start.

And for Uber Drivers, I'm betting the logs they get from Uber (you DO get some kind of logs from Uber, don't you?) would validate a lot. Uber documents that you drove someone from Point A to Point B. The you drove someone else from Point C to Point D. I think it can be argued that when you drove from the first drop off point (Point B) to the next pickup point (Point C) those were business miles.


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## LindaVMorgan (Jan 28, 2016)

notfussy said:


> How do I make a mileage log


*"Table 5-2. Daily Business Mileage and Expense Log Name:*
Date - 
Destination (City, Town, or Area) - Business Purpose - Odometer Readings: Start, Stop, Total Miles - Expenses Type: 
(Gas, oil, tolls, etc.) & Amount 
(IRS Pub 463)

Basically, they want to know the date you went, the number of miles driven, why you went there, and what you did there.


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## LindaVMorgan (Jan 28, 2016)

LindaVMorgan said:


> At this point you would really have to go back and recreate your log.
> 
> There is a smart phone app called MileIQ that I recommend to all my bookkeeping clients. For $6 a month, it will allow you to classify every where you go, you can add notes, enter tolls and parking expenses. And then you email your log to yourself every month. This meets all the IRS criteria for a written log.


It is even possible to notate your odometer readings with every drive.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

I also didn't keep a mileage log last year for my driving, but I created an excel doc with my start & end mileage each day I drove so far this year .. will that suffice for next years filing?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LindaVMorgan said:


> Absolutely. But, IRS Pub 463 says this regarding inadequate records:
> 
> *"What If I Have Incomplete Records?*
> If you do not have complete records to prove an element of an expense, then you must prove the element with:
> ...


Yes you can use supporting documentation to recreate the log however *auto mileage deductions are subject to the strict substantiation requirements of section 274(d)* and the tax court has ruled that in lieu of a contemporaneous auto log the taxpayer may present corroborative evidence to support his/her reconstruction of the elements of use, but that corroborative evidence must have a high degree of probative value to elevate such statement to the level of credibility of a contemporaneous record.
In the case of an auto mileage log recreation, "Your own written or oral statement containing specific information about the element" would not be considered to have a high degree of probative value to elevate it to the level of a contemporaneous record. Any "Other supporting evidence that is sufficient to establish the element." would also have to meet the credibility of a contemporaneous record test.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

LindaVMorgan said:


> It is even possible to notate your odometer readings with every drive.


You can post three consecutive posts without having to build into one single post? I guess you haven't wrtten anything to incite envy among certain people yet?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LindaVMorgan said:


> Absolutely. But, IRS Pub 463 says this regarding inadequate records:
> 
> *"What If I Have Incomplete Records?*


Although the information in in IRS publication (like pub 463) is drawn from the IRC Treasury Regulations, and other primary sources of authority, publications themselves are not considered to have substantial authority. Taxpayers may not rely on guidance issued by IRS publications to avoid accuracy-related penalties. 
In 2014 , a U.S. Tax Court judge declared, " Taxpayers rely on IRS guidance at their own peril." Judge Joseph W. Nega ruled against a married couple who used guidance from an IRS pub as the basis for their case disputing penalties imposed after an IRA withdrawal. The judge wrote that IRS guidance was not "binding precedent" or "sufficient authority" to excuse the couple from penalties. (the IRS later revised the pub at issue).


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> Although the information in in IRS publication (like pub 463) is drawn from the IRC Treasury Regulations, and other primary sources of authority, publications themselves are not considered to have substantial authority. Taxpayers may not rely on guidance issued by IRS publications to avoid accuracy-related penalties.
> In 2014 , a U.S. Tax Court judge declared, " Taxpayers rely on IRS guidance at their own peril." Judge Joseph W. Nega ruled against a married couple who used guidance from an IRS pub as the basis for their case disputing penalties imposed after an IRA withdrawal. The judge wrote that IRS guidance was not "binding precedent" or "sufficient authority" to excuse the couple from penalties. (the IRS later revised the pub at issue).


I have already been doing this. Just wanted to make sure I am not over-doing it, because it is taking too much of my time in such record keeping.

In my physical (hard copy) notebooks, I keep contemporaneous business mileage logs. Date. Start odometer reading, end odometer reading. Total miles for that trip. Detailed explanation of the business purpose of the trip. I know all these are needed. What I want to ask is, I keep very detailed descriptions of the last part (purpose of trip). How detailed does that last part need to be?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Save your time, if the purpose of your business miles is "obvious" you don't need to record it every time. Also, Uber keeps a contemporaneously record and summary with a map of each and every trip you do.


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## NachonCheeze (Sep 8, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> Yes you can use supporting documentation to recreate the log however *auto mileage deductions are subject to the strict substantiation requirements of section 274(d)* and the tax court has ruled that in lieu of a contemporaneous auto log the taxpayer may present corroborative evidence to support his/her reconstruction of the elements of use, but that corroborative evidence must have a high degree of probative value to elevate such statement to the level of credibility of a contemporaneous record.
> In the case of an auto mileage log recreation, "Your own written or oral statement containing specific information about the element" would not be considered to have a high degree of probative value to elevate it to the level of a contemporaneous record. Any "Other supporting evidence that is sufficient to establish the element." would also have to meet the credibility of a contemporaneous record test.


What kind of jibber jabber is this....I must be on Mars.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> Save your time, if the purpose of your business miles is "obvious" you don't need to record it every time. Also, Uber keeps a contemporaneously record and summary with a map of each and every trip you do.


Right, for TNC driving I will just keep date, start odometer reading, end odometer reading, and use the record along with TNC's records which they will give / I will print out. All these combined is sufficient record keeping for TNC tax purposes right?

For other gigs (non TNC), say Company XYZ pays me to go to Retailer ABC to do some research. Can "market research work for XYZ" be sufficient? Or do I need to spend the time to do at least one of these two? -- (A) keep a screenshot of the job description, (B) use between ten to twenty more words to describe the details of that gig job (I have been doing a combo of A and B).

Thanks!


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Right, for TNC driving I will just keep date, start odometer reading, end odometer reading, and use the record along with TNC's records which they will give / I will print out. All these combined is sufficient record keeping for TNC tax purposes right?
> 
> For other gigs (non TNC), say Company XYZ pays me to go to Retailer ABC to do some research. Can "market research work for XYZ" be sufficient? Or do I need to spend the time to do at least one of these two? -- (A) keep a screenshot of the job description, (B) use between ten to twenty more words to describe the details of that gig job (I have been doing a combo of A and B).
> 
> Thanks!


All these combined is sufficient record keeping for TNC tax purposes right? Yes
Can "market research work for XYZ" be sufficient? I think that adequately describes the purpose. Keeping the screenshot wouldn't hurt as backup especially since it's quick and easy


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> All these combined is sufficient record keeping for TNC tax purposes right? Yes
> Can "market research work for XYZ" be sufficient? I think that adequately describes the purpose. Keeping the screenshot wouldn't hurt as backup especially since it's quick and easy


This one is slightly more complicated.

Company ABC asks me to go eat a certain dinner menu item at Restaurabt XYZ. Or ABC asks me to go to Retailer XYZ to buy a certain product for the research. Round trip for both locations is 28 miles each.

Sometimes the menu item is not available at the Restaurant (or Retailer does not have that product available on shelf nor in the store room). In both cases, I don't get paid.

To play it safe, I don't claim those miles. Why? I remember from taxes classes I took in college the concept of matching of income and expenses. So, in the above scenarios, since I didn't earn any income from those trips, I therefore never claim those miles.

Am I correct in this, or I should have claimed those miles as well, even if the trips didn't end up earning me any income?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> This one is slightly more complicated.
> 
> Company ABC asks me to go eat a certain dinner menu item at Restaurabt XYZ. Or ABC asks me to go to Retailer XYZ to buy a certain product for the research. Round trip for both locations is 28 miles each.
> 
> ...


It's kinda like getting a no show on an Uber trip. You might drive miles to get to the location and the pax cancels before the time limit. Or a Real Estate Agent taking people to look at a house that they never buy. Those and your miles would all be deductible business miles in my opinion.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Ok ClevalandUberRider you like tax questions? Here you go:
Mike, a self-employed Uber/Lyft driver, traveled to a business convention for members of uberpeople.net in Las Vegas and incurred the following expenses: Train ticket $100, Meals $80, Hotel Room $90, Computer game $50. 
How much is deductible as a current business expense?
A. $190
B. $230
C. $280
D. $320


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> It's kinda like getting a no show on an Uber trip. You might drive miles to get to the location and the pax cancels before the time limit. Or a Real Estate Agent taking people to look at a house that they never buy. Those and your miles would all be deductible business miles in my opinion.


Thanks. Your first comparative example is perfect (TNC customer cancels before five minutes), as the percentage of trips that happens is likely pretty close to the futile trips to restaurants and shops for research purposes, with the percentage for all three examples, one yours and two mine, likely in the range of 10-30% (of trips being fruitless). However, the realtors case is quite different--the industry average of fruitless trips is probably as high as in the 90%-95% range (every ten to twenty trips bring one sale), so high number of trips per each income item received is high in the real estate agents' case.

Thanks again for your advice!


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> Ok ClevalandUberRider you like tax questions? Here you go:
> Mike, a self-employed Uber/Lyft driver, traveled to a business convention for members of uberpeople.net in Las Vegas and incurred the following expenses: Train ticket $100, Meals $80, Hotel Room $90, Computer game $50.
> How much is deductible as a current business expense?
> A. $190
> ...


This is a very apt question for me, as it will illustrate any such real life example of my conservative approach to any income or expense item I receive.

First off, I am not a tax pro. If you have read my previous posts you know that I have been filing my own individual tax returns. I save $200 per hour by not using any good CPA. Which saves me about a couple to a few thousand dollars a year in tax prep fees. However, I have to invest tens of hours per year in tax prep time myself. Plus, in certain years I lost (paid more) in taxes because of not paying my own CPA to help me claim all that I was rightfully entitled to claim (but every year I learn and lose less and less). Each year I end up saving tax prep fees overall even though I know I am paying more taxes than I should due to under claiming of legitimate business expenses. Perhaps you and I can illustrate this very well, by me providing you with my approach as if this Mike is actually me, then followed by you informing me of how a good CPA would have recommended to me to rightfully claim.

First, I would ask if I receive any income that same tax year from said company for which convention I am going to attend. If I receive zero income from said company that year, then I will not claim any of above expenses. Because it is more like a hobby. Also, it doesn't fit my "income-expense matching" criterion.

If there is income, then we move on to...

I will NOT claim any meals. For two reasons. A, In the limited amount of only ten to twenty hours or so I have read up on this issue over the years I came to the conclusion that claiming it is more trouble than not claiming it. B, it doesn't fit my own business deduction standard of being "an extra expense that I normally would not have incurred without that income-earning business activity". Meals, no matter where it takes place or how much it costs, are something that I have to eat anyway. If one claims that, one gets into the need to apportion the other half of the paired dinner bill to the customer or client that you take to dinner, prove that you actually mostly talk about business during dinner, etc. (never claim your own portion of the dinner bill under any circumstances). Too much work there. So, I have never claimed any meals as my business expense.

Computer game--no way.

Train and hotel. I need to ask myself, did my family go with me? If yes, the max I can claim is my portion, and even then, I need to ask, is this just business convention, or partly leisure. To play it safe, if any family members is/are accompanying me on the trip, I give up claiming ANY expenses and just treat the trip as family leisure time. If I go there myself, after spending another two to five hours browsing the IRS publications on attending business related conventions, then I will decide. I will only claim the train and hotel expenses if my research reading the IRS Pubs convince me that I can do that, and even then, I will claim only 50% of those two expenses, because I will likely take two to four short visits during the day(s) of the convention outside of the convention venue to go out and visit the city, etc.

I attend several annual shareholder meetings a year, plus a few other similar trips, but I have never claimed any expenses arising from those trips because there is no income arising from those trips.

(Edit: Corrected two typos.)


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> This is a very apt question for me, as it will illustrate any such real life example of my conservative approach to any income or expense item I receive.
> 
> First off, I am not a tax pro. If you have read my previous posts you know that I have been filing my own individual tax returns. I save $200 per hour by not using any good CPA. Which saves me about a couple to a few thousand dollars a year in tax prep fees. However, I have to invest tens of hours per year in tax prep time myself. Plus, in certain years I lost (paid more) in taxes because of not paying my own CPA to help me claim all that I was rightfully entitled to claim (but every year I learn and lose less and less). Each year I end up saving tax prep fees overall even though I know I am paying more taxes than I should due to under claiming of legitimate business expenses. Perhaps you and I can illustrate this very well, by me providing you with my approach as if this Mike is actually me, then followed by you informing me of how a good CPA would have recommended to me to rightfully claim.
> 
> ...


I'll bet your doing your taxes better than if you hired someone based on your analysis on this! This is actually a study question for the E.A exam that I'm currently studying for.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> This is a very apt question for me, as it will illustrate any such real life example of my conservative approach to any income or expense item I receive.
> 
> First off, I am not a tax pro. If you have read my previous posts you know that I have been filing my own individual tax returns. I save $200 per hour by not using any good CPA. Which saves me about a couple to a few thousand dollars a year in tax prep fees. However, I have to invest tens of hours per year in tax prep time myself. Plus, in certain years I lost (paid more) in taxes because of not paying my own CPA to help me claim all that I was rightfully entitled to claim (but every year I learn and lose less and less). Each year I end up saving tax prep fees overall even though I know I am paying more taxes than I should due to under claiming of legitimate business expenses. Perhaps you and I can illustrate this very well, by me providing you with my approach as if this Mike is actually me, then followed by you informing me of how a good CPA would have recommended to me to rightfully claim.
> 
> ...


It was a "business convention". Don't assume anything not in question. Hint...be careful of meals


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> I'll bet your doing your taxes better than if you hired someone based on your analysis on this! This is actually a study question for the E.A exam that I'm currently studying for.


Thank you for your nice comments.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

UberTaxPro said:


> Ok ClevalandUberRider you like tax questions? Here you go:
> Mike, a self-employed Uber/Lyft driver, traveled to a business convention for members of uberpeople.net in Las Vegas and incurred the following expenses: Train ticket $100, Meals $80, Hotel Room $90, Computer game $50.
> How much is deductible as a current business expense?
> A. $190
> ...


Okay, I'll bite; why is there no option in the amount of $270? That's what I would take, as you are allowed to deduct for meals when traveling for business and an overnight stay is necessary. Is this the "new math" I have heard about?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Older Chauffeur said:


> Okay, I'll bite; why is there no option in the amount of $270? That's what I would take, as you are allowed to deduct for meals when traveling for business and an overnight stay is necessary. Is this the "new math" I have heard about?


Your the first bite! This is IRS math which is very similar to Uber math.....it always comes out in their favor. The answer is B. Yes you're allowed to deduct for meals but only 50%. Meals and entertainment have a 50% limit. 
$100 train ticket
$ 40.00 50% of meals
$90 hotel
$230


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> Your the first bite! This is IRS math which is very similar to Uber math.....it always comes out in their favor. The answer is B. Yes you're allowed to deduct for meals but only 50%. Meals and entertainment have a 50% limit.
> $100 train ticket
> $ 40.00 50% of meals
> $90 hotel
> $230


That was assuming the meal was two people or more right? Can taxpayer deduct half of the restaurant bill if it is only the taxpayer dining?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> That was assuming the meal was two people or more right? Can taxpayer deduct half of the restaurant bill if it is only the taxpayer dining?


That was assuming the meal was two people or more right? No don't assume anything not in the question. 50% for one taxpayer.
Generally, only 50% of business-related meal and entertainment expenses are allowed as a deduction


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> That was assuming the meal was two people or more right? No don't assume anything not in the question. 50% for one taxpayer.
> Generally, only 50% of business-related meal and entertainment expenses are allowed as a deduction


OK, let's see if I understand this correctly:

1. If Taxpayer A takes Customer/Client B to lunch, and they primarily talk about business during lunch, A can deduct half of the amount of the entire bill if he pays for the entire bill right?

2. I think you are saying if A goes to lunch alone at the hotel restaurant on the day of the business convention and pays for his lunch, he still can deduct half of the bill amount? But A would normally eat lunch anyway though.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> OK, let's see if I understand this correctly:
> 
> 1. If Taxpayer A takes Customer/Client B to lunch, and they primarily talk about business during lunch, A can deduct half of the amount of the entire bill if he pays for the entire bill right?
> 
> 2. I think you are saying if A goes to lunch alone at the hotel restaurant on the day of the business convention and pays for his lunch, he still can deduct half of the bill amount? But A would normally eat lunch anyway though.


Yes, Yes. 50% across the board for meals and entertainment


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> Yes, Yes. 50% across the board for meals and entertainment


Big thanks! Apparently there are quite some fat still to be cut (and enjoyed as bacons) in my overly-generous tax returns.

Another potential fat:

About ten to twenty business trips each year, I happen to combine business and personal trips together. For example, driving from home to location A for 25 miles round trip for business conducted at A. But along the journey, I passed by a place that I normally go, such as church or grocery shopping etc., which is 20 miles round trip. That is, A is located just 2.5 miles longer, in straight line road driving, from where I normally go.

The way I do it is to play it safe using my principle of only count anything extra I spend above my normal, personal life spending, as business expense. So, for the above hypothetical trip, I only count 5 miles as business miles.

Am I leaving out some fat here?


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Big thanks! Apparently there are quite some fat still to be cut (and enjoyed as bacons) in my overly-generous tax returns.
> 
> Another potential fat:
> 
> ...


Not exactly the same scenario, but I sometimes make a stop on the way home from a trip to a doctor's appointment. I still claim the round trip. Same thing if I drive to a doctor's office enroute home from a business-related trip. In that case I record only the business mileage. I just don't see how an IRS auditor could find fault with my method.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Older Chauffeur said:


> Not exactly the same scenario, but I sometimes make a stop on the way home from a trip to a doctor's appointment. I still claim the round trip. Same thing if I drive to a doctor's office enroute home from a business-related trip. In that case I record only the business mileage. I just don't see how an IRS auditor could find fault with my method.


So you are saying it may be alright to claim the entire trip for the two scenarios I described as business miles?


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> So you are saying it may be alright to claim the entire trip for the two scenarios I described as business miles?


I would, but that's me. OTOH, if the personal errand took me five miles further, those miles wouldn't make the cut.
Also in my log, for each doctor's office I record actual odometer readings for the first visit in the year, then just total miles thereafter. We go to the same ones we've been going to for years, so I know the r/t for each by heart. Same for my clients, but for those I still record each business trip.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Older Chauffeur said:


> I would, but that's me. OTOH, if the personal errand took me five miles further, those miles wouldn't make the cut.
> Also in my log, for each doctor's office I record actual odometer readings for the first visit in the year, then just total miles thereafter. We go to the same ones we've been going to for years, so I know the r/t for each by heart. Same for my clients, but for those I still record each business trip.


For doctors' visits like you mentioned. If Mrs A goes see her dentist twice a year, and the trip from her home to the dentist's address/location is 15 miles, 30 miles round trip. Since there are so many documentations regarding/proving the fact that she actually went there for a dentist's appt (dentist's itemized bill, insurance company's itemized bill, etc.), with dentist's and practice's name and address showing, does A still need to keep the odometer readings at start and end of those trips? Assuming these (total medical miles claimed, 60 miles) are the only two trips or miles (medical or otherwise) that A is claiming (this assumption is put in here to avoid the complication of A needing the odometer readings so that the IRS knows she is not "double-claiming" the same or overlapping miles for other business trips etc.).


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> For doctors' visits like you mentioned. If Mrs A goes see her dentist twice a year, and the trip from her home to the dentist's address/location is 15 miles, 30 miles round trip. Since there are so many documentations regarding/proving the fact that she actually went there for a dentist's appt (dentist's itemized bill, insurance company's itemized bill, etc.), with dentist's and practice's name and address showing, does A still need to keep the odometer readings at start and end of those trips? Assuming these (total medical miles claimed, 60 miles) are the only two trips or miles (medical or otherwise) that A is claiming (this assumption is put in here to avoid the complication of A needing the odometer readings so that the IRS knows she is not "double-claiming" the same or overlapping miles for other business trips etc.).


I think you worry too much!


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Older Chauffeur said:


> I think you worry too much!


Does she have to keep the odometer readings or the documentations from her dentist and her insurer are enough for the IRS?


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Does she have to keep the odometer readings or the documentations from her dentist and her insurer are enough for the IRS?


I keep a Day Planner with mileage, purpose of trip/client/doctor/dentist, etc. If I ever need them I have the EOBs from insurance payments, and of course e-files and hard copies of my invoices and checks received. So I feel I am prepared to back up anything I need to prove. The medical mileage is not a major deduction for me, so if it was taken away it wouldn't make much difference. The important one to me is the business mileage.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Older Chauffeur said:


> I keep a Day Planner with mileage, purpose of trip/client/doctor/dentist, etc. If I ever need them I have the EOBs from insurance payments, and of course e-files and hard copies of my invoices and checks received. So I feel I am prepared to back up anything I need to prove. The medical mileage is not a major deduction for me, so if it was taken away it wouldn't make much difference. The important one to me is the business mileage.


I was asking more for the benefit of learning about my own case actually, in no way I was trying to question your own case.

That was in one or more of my previous years when I only had several trips worth of medical miles but no other business miles (I did not claim them either--didn't qualify, obviously, due to very low medical expenses). But may happen again in the future, with no business miles but lots of medical miles (and medical bills).

1. Am I getting this wrong about medical miles needing to meet the medical expenses as a percentage of AGI or can medical miles be deductible regardless of that medical expenses threshold is met or not?

Separately, let's say in tax year 2022 (assume tax laws remain the same as those in tax year 2015) regarding miles claimed, all I am claiming are medical miles to, say twenty trips to see dentist, eye doctor, other doctors, etc. And let's say I qualify to claim medical expenses. Since I am not claiming any other kinds of miles (charitable or business miles, for example), therefore with no possibility of "overlapping/double claiming" of miles as long as those medical appts all fall on different days during the year (they always do).

2. Can I just use my medical records/statements/related documentations as proofs/records of the medical miles or do I need to log the start and end odometer readings of each of those 20 medical trips? Thank you.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I was asking more for the benefit of learning about my own case actually, in no way I was trying to question your own case.
> 
> That was in one or more of my previous years when I only had several trips worth of medical miles but no other business miles (I did not claim them either--didn't qualify, obviously, due to very low medical expenses). But may happen again in the future, with no business miles but lots of medical miles (and medical bills).
> 
> ...


To claim mileage as a medical expense, you must use your personal car to get to the place of treatment. *You are also required to itemize your deductible expenses on IRS Form 1040, Schedule A*. To calculate the amount you are entitled to claim, use the standard mileage rate for medical expenses that the IRS establishes for the year of your tax return.
*Maintain a log* of the miles you drive for medical reasons during the fiscal year. In addition to writing down the distance, note the date, the address to where you drove and the reason for going there. Include the trips you take for your own health as well as that of a dependent and spouse. If they die during the year, you can still claim the miles you drove while they were alive. The medical reasons that qualify for the mileage deduction make an extensive list, which you can find in IRS Publication 502.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I attend several annual shareholder meetings a year, plus a few other similar trips, but I have never claimed any expenses arising from those trips because there is no income arising from those trips


If you hold shares in those companies, wouldn't expenses related to attending those meetings be deductible against income from those shares? If you keep your share certificates, bonds, etc in a safety deposit box, for example, the rental of the box is deductible. You do have to meet a threshold amount based on your AGI for miscellaneous items to benefit, but it seems to me travel expenses would qualify. Of course, the IRS might not agree.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> 1. Am I getting this wrong about medical miles needing to meet the medical expenses as a percentage of AGI or can medical miles be deductible regardless of that medical expenses threshold is met or not?


Nope, you got it right- subject to the AGI calculation with all other medical expenses.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Older Chauffeur said:


> If you hold shares in those companies, wouldn't expenses related to attending those meetings be deductible against income from those shares? If you keep your share certificates, bonds, etc in a safety deposit box, for example, the rental of the box is deductible. You do have to meet a threshold amount based on your AGI for miscellaneous items to benefit, but it seems to me travel expenses would qualify. Of course, the IRS might not agree.


I try to be conservative on treating business expenses. When in doubt or in grey areas, I don't claim. You raised an interesting point. But the reason I don't claim is this conservative thinking: the shares will earn the same income (capital gains, dividends, if any) regardless of my attending the annuals or not. So I don't claim. Same thing with the case where I travel the same direction on a business trip beyond my normal personal trip (10 miles one way) for an additional 5 miles to get to the business purpose destination. RT is 30 miles. But I normally would have gone on that personal trip anyway (20 miles RT), so I only claim the extra-from-normal RT 10 miles worth of business trip. Most of my friends say I can divide 30 miles by 2, assigning half to business and half to personal (15 miles each), but so far I have always chosen the more conservative approach of allocating only the extra driving as business miles.

A long way of asking Older Cauffeur and UberTaxPro: Am I leaving out too much bacon fat on the table?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> I try to be conservative on treating business expenses. When in doubt or in grey areas, I don't claim. You raised an interesting point. But the reason I don't claim is this conservative thinking: the shares will earn the same income (capital gains, dividends, if any) regardless of my attending the annuals or not. So I don't claim. Same thing with the case where I travel the same direction on a business trip beyond my normal personal trip (10 miles one way) for an additional 5 miles to get to the business purpose destination. RT is 30 miles. But I normally would have gone on that personal trip anyway (20 miles RT), so I only claim the extra-from-normal RT 10 miles worth of business trip. Most of my friends say I can divide 30 miles by 2, assigning half to business and half to personal (15 miles each), but so far I have always chosen the more conservative approach of allocating only the extra driving as business miles.
> 
> A long way of asking Older Cauffeur and UberTaxPro: Am I leaving out too much bacon fat on the table?


"So I don't claim." It that case your leaving some fat. Not bacon unless you go to a lot of shareholder meetings!
Your other questions depend on other factors. Things like where the trips originated, if you have a home office, work office or both. Some of your miles may be considered commuter miles but its hard to determine based on the info. Everyone's situation is different and the individual answer is usually in the details. Having a home office can help to turn fat into bacon generally.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Speaking as an ordinary citizen, with no training or official standing, in other words someone the IRS would frown upon (sorry, couldn't resist) I too try to be conservative. I don't subscribe to the theory that a deduction is okay as long as it doesn't reach some imaginary threshold. Many years ago a tax preparer (not my long time CPA) told me I could claim donations to a church, regardless if I had actually made them or even attended services, because the IRS wouldn't question it. I insisted he not list any deduction to which I was not entitled or could not prove or substantiate. 
My CPA requires that I keep mileage logs for business, and reminds me in writing each year that he is filing my returns based on info I provide, and I am ultimately responsible for it. For example, I occasionally have a personal job for one of my clients who usually hires me through his company. His wife writes me a personal check, like the one I got this year for about $150. It was one check out of the entire year, with no 1099, of course. I listed it anyway, as "other income." What are the odds the IRS would ever find that income? I would guess only in a full blown audit by going through my bank accounts.
My CPA has responsibility for handling that info properly and accurately with regard to reporting it on our returns. We both like to sleep at night in our own beds, not in some Club Fed!
I guess my answer to you would be that you may be leaving something on the table, but you have to be comfortable with what you report and claim. I have only known a couple of people who have been audited, and I realize the odds are fairly low, but I would rather not raise any red flags, and I imagine you feel the same way.
Bottom line? Enjoy some eggs, toast and hash browns with your bacon!


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## ravv88 (Feb 24, 2015)

Lyft does not give 1099k, the give me a Payout details with $1,134 and Driver mode miles of 2,853... what should i do with this?


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> "So I don't claim." It that case your leaving some fat. Not bacon unless you go to a lot of shareholder meetings!
> Your other questions depend on other factors. Things like where the trips originated, if you have a home office, work office or both. Some of your miles may be considered commuter miles but its hard to determine based on the info. Everyone's situation is different and the individual answer is usually in the details. Having a home office can help to turn fat into bacon generally.


Yes, I have a home office (again, using conservative approach using and claiming only less than ten percent of residential space and any allowable expenses).


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Older Chauffeur said:


> Speaking as an ordinary citizen, with no training or official standing, in other words someone the IRS would frown upon (sorry, couldn't resist) I too try to be conservative. I don't subscribe to the theory that a deduction is okay as long as it doesn't reach some imaginary threshold. Many years ago a tax preparer (not my long time CPA) told me I could claim donations to a church, regardless if I had actually made them or even attended services, because the IRS wouldn't question it. I insisted he not list any deduction to which I was not entitled or could not prove or substantiate.
> My CPA requires that I keep mileage logs for business, and reminds me in writing each year that he is filing my returns based on info I provide, and I am ultimately responsible for it. For example, I occasionally have a personal job for one of my clients who usually hires me through his company. His wife writes me a personal check, like the one I got this year for about $150. It was one check out of the entire year, with no 1099, of course. I listed it anyway, as "other income." What are the odds the IRS would ever find that income? I would guess only in a full blown audit by going through my bank accounts.
> My CPA has responsibility for handling that info properly and accurately with regard to reporting it on our returns. We both like to sleep at night in our own beds, not in some Club Fed!
> I guess my answer to you would be that you may be leaving something on the table, but you have to be comfortable with what you report and claim. I have only known a couple of people who have been audited, and I realize the odds are fairly low, but I would rather not raise any red flags, and I imagine you feel the same way.
> Bottom line? Enjoy some eggs, toast and hash browns with your bacon!


Thanks for your explanations. It is very clear that our approaches on tax matters are very similar--playing it safe, being conservative, preferring to err on the side of caution. Perhaps much like our approach to driving for money--unless it is very very clearly safe, we prefer not to drive.

Separately, you mentioned about "other income". I believe that was an irregular, rare form of income (that is perhaps why you classified it as "other income", rather than a regular business income related to any businesses you were involved in and reported on your Schedule C etc.). My question is: Did you put that $150 income directly and wholly into the "other income" space on Page One of your 1040 itself, or did you put it onto some other Schedule etc., before its effect/result was brought onto your 1040?


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> My question is: Did you put that $150 income directly and wholly into the "other income" space on Page One of your 1040 itself, or did you put it onto some other Schedule etc., before its effect/result was brought onto your 1040?


Remember I just play around with TT, but I listed it as "other" in the income/1099 area for reporting on Schedule C. I think my guy does it the same way, as it just shows up as a total with any other pay I get from clients who only call on me once or twice a year and don't hit the $600 minimum for a 1099misc. That way it is subject to self employment taxes (FICA) but also reduced by any applicable business expenses.
I doubt if it's true, but I have heard stories about people taking bags of receipts and paperwork to an audit and dumping them on the IRS agent's desk, saying "You figure it out!" I have file boxes filled with invoices, payments and receipts going back to 2002 in my garage. I can just imagine the scene I could create!


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Older Chauffeur said:


> Remember I just play around with TT, but I listed it as "other" in the income/1099 area for reporting on Schedule C. I think my guy does it the same way, as it just shows up as a total with any other pay I get from clients who only call on me once or twice a year and don't hit the $600 minimum for a 1099misc. That way it is subject to self employment taxes (FICA) but also reduced by any applicable business expenses.
> I doubt if it's true, but I have heard stories about people taking bags of receipts and paperwork to an audit and dumping them on the IRS agent's desk, saying "You figure it out!" I have file boxes filled with invoices, payments and receipts going back to 2002 in my garage. I can just imagine the scene I could create!


I remember reading somewhere that in an audit, the IRS expects to see well organized paperwork and supporting documents.

The scenes you described, though, remind me of several cases of people throughout the country where they spent a year or so collecting all the coins they could get and then arrived in person to pay their property taxes in nothing but coins.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

You catch more flies with honey...........


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Older Chauffeur said:


> You catch more flies with honey...........


Pardon the ignorance, I have not heard that one before. Meaning?


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

ClevelandUberRider said:


> Pardon the ignorance, I have not heard that one before. Meaning?


I was referring to being nice to the IRS agent in event of an audit, as opposed to dumping documents on him/her.


*Proverb*
*You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.*


It's easier to persuade others with polite requests and a positive attitude rather than with rude demands and negativity.


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## ClevelandUberRider (Nov 28, 2015)

Older Chauffeur said:


> I was referring to being nice to the IRS agent in event of an audit, as opposed to dumping documents on him/her.
> *Proverb*
> *You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.*
> 
> ...


Thanks. I learned a new proverb today.

Curious though, flies usually are something normal people want to avoid (one of the exceptions are people who love and/or collect insects, another group are those who want to catch them and feed their aquarium fish). Flies usually denote annoying things or things we want to avoid.

Thanks again for the explanation. If one learns a proverb a day, over ten years, that is more than three thousand! Thank you!


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

In some cases you might use honey to catch them and keep them off other stuff, I guess.


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