# Picking up juvenile riders



## My3kidsmum

Could someone please explain the policy regarding picking up minor/juveniles that are not accompanied by a guardian ?

I have had several request recently from high school students that have an account under their name. 

Thanks in advance for your advice.


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## FastestManAlive

from what I've read they have to be 18.


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## 5 Star Guy

That and the account holder must be a pax. In other words minors are not allowed alone. You will not be covered in an accident and its not a good idea regardless.


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## Beur

Look at number 3 under Uber'a TOS - Must be 18

https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms


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## 5 Star Guy

Drivers do take minors alone, some are on here. Its never a good idea, nothing is worth a $7 trip after expenses. I was thinking of the loophole, you must have a credit card in your name, now you can buy those prepaid cards in cash and use them. All I know is we aren't paid enough for that kind of responsibility or liability.


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## FastestManAlive

they beat me to the link. basically you have to be 18 to have an account. No third parties may use your account.


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## My3kidsmum

Thank you. If this happens again, I'll cancel.


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## Beur

My3kidsmum said:


> Thank you. If this happens again, I'll cancel.


Make sure you cancel with the issue the rider is under age which is against Uber TOS or they may ding you for too many cancellations.


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## My3kidsmum

Beur said:


> Make sure you cancel with the issue the rider is under age which is against Uber TOS or they may ding you for too many cancellations.


Thank you.


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## uberdriverfornow

My email to Uber support : "What is the correct policy regarding kids that use their parents app to request a ride ? Do all passengers have to be 18 or old ? Please be as detailed as possible ?"

Their response two days later : "
*XXXX *Uber)

Feb

Hi
Thank you for writing in. I'm happy to help.

Regarding your concern, I'd like to inform you that we do allow our riders to request for another rider. However, as our independent partner, questions such as this are left to your discretion. You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger and if you feel uncomfortable with having an underage rider, you may politely cancel the trip. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know.

Please let me know if you have more questions.

Warm regards,

*xxxxx*
help.uber.com"


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## 5 Star Guy

I've been thinking about that lately. A bar using their account so someone doesn't drive drunk or a business using an account for their employees to travel. Those are businesses though, I wouldn't take a pax if they aren't the account holder.


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## Beur

uberdriverfornow said:


> My email to Uber support : "What is the correct policy regarding kids that use their parents app to request a ride ? Do all passengers have to be 18 or old ? Please be as detailed as possible ?"
> 
> Their response two days later : "
> *XXXX *Uber)
> 
> Feb
> 
> Hi
> Thank you for writing in. I'm happy to help.
> 
> Regarding your concern, I'd like to inform you that we do allow our riders to request for another rider. However, as our independent partner, questions such as this are left to your discretion. You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger and if you feel uncomfortable with having an underage rider, you may politely cancel the trip. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know.
> 
> Please let me know if you have more questions.
> 
> Warm regards,
> 
> *xxxxx*
> help.uber.com"


Clearly this CSR doesn't know the Uber TOS. It's explicitly spelled out, in number 3 of their TOS, you must be 18 to use the service.


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## uberdriverfornow

Beur said:


> Clearly this CSR doesn't know the Uber TOS. It's explicitly spelled out, in number 3 of their TOS, you must be 18 to use the service.


Not defending Uber at all(cause they aren't worth it), but since it says use the service, that could imply the account holder is using the service and alllowing the minor to simply use the ride.


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## Beur

uberdriverfornow said:


> Not defending Uber at all(cause they aren't worth it), but since it says use the service, that could imply the account holder is using the service and alllowing the minor to simply use the ride.


Continue reading section 3:

"The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18. You may not authorize third parties to use your Account, and you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you."


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## 5 Star Guy

The way I read it was you don't have to have a child in your car, with an adult and to let them know if you have a pax alone who you think is a minor.


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## uberdriverfornow

5 Star Guy said:


> The way I read it was you don't have to have a child in your car, with an adult and to let them know if you have a pax alone who you think is a minor.


But then they state if we believe someone is underage and want them to investigate so I'm really not even sure what that means in its context.



Beur said:


> Continue reading section 3:
> 
> "The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18. You may not authorize third parties to use your Account, and you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you."


Who exactly are Third Party Providers ?


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## 5 Star Guy

People you know, unless you're giving away free trips to strangers. In other words the person with the account must be a pax. [Provider would be a business entity other than them.]


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## My3kidsmum

RESOLVED
CONTACT US

Thanks for your email. I'm happy to provide information here regarding your inquiry, Stacy. Uber prides itself in providing a safe technology platform for both riders _and_ drivers. All riders must be 18 years of age and have a valid credit card to pay for trips. Requiring that both riders and drivers submit personal information in order to make use of the Uber system creates a platform that holds both riders and drivers accountable. And what if a partner encountered a rider like under 18 year old? As an independent contractor, this are left to our partner's discretion. You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know. Hope this helps and please don't hesitate to reach out with additional questions.

Sent by Julius on Thursday March 3 2016 12:34am
Continue this conversation by replying to this email or going to Help in Uber app.
PREVIOUS MESSAGES
*Description*: As drivers, Is it Uber policy to allow juveniles under the age of 18 to have an account and request rides ?
Sent by Stacy H. on Wednesday March 2 2016 11:12pm
Uber Technologies Inc.
1455 Market Street San Francisco, CA 94103









My email from Uber


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## Michguy01

So now we gotta check id's too!!!!!!!! SMDH


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## Beur

uberdriverfornow said:


> But then they state if we believe someone is underage and want them to investigate so I'm really not even sure what that means in its context.
> 
> Who exactly are Third Party Providers ?


We the drivers are third party providers. 1. Uber 2. Pax 3. Drivers


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## Uber-Doober

My3kidsmum said:


> Could someone please explain the policy regarding picking up minor/juveniles that are not accompanied by a guardian ?
> 
> I have had several request recently from high school students that have an account under their name.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your advice.


^^^
A lot of high school students are 18.


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## Uber-Doober

5 Star Guy said:


> That and the account holder must be a pax. In other words minors are not allowed alone. You will not be covered in an accident and its not a good idea regardless.


^^^
OR, legal in that jurisdiction.... IE, an emancipated minor.


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## Thatendedbadly

Without thinking about the legal implications I picked up two minors from a high school in my area, drove them to a pretty crappy suburb bordering the city. I got a chance to cancel the fare the following week, twice actually, recognizing the name/location of the pickup, using that rationale I've read here, they weren't the account holder, they were both minors. I'm not Mom's taxi.


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## uberdriverfornow

So we can't even take minor pax that are riding with a parent.


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## Beur

uberdriverfornow said:


> So we can't even take minor pax that are riding with a parent.


Did you miss the last sentence where it states "*unless they are accompanied by you*"


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## Uber-Doober

uberdriverfornow said:


> So we can't even take minor pax that are riding with a parent.


^^^
Those are the worst kind.


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## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> That and the account holder must be a pax. In other words minors are not allowed alone. You will not be covered in an accident and its not a good idea regardless.


This insurance issue is a myth. It's repeated here over and over but there's never once been any documentation. If Uber sends you a request and you pick up that pax and give him a ride, you're covered.

Besides, Uber wants kids riding. It's future business.


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## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> This insurance issue is a myth. It's repeated here over and over but there's never once been any documentation. If Uber sends you a request and you pick up that pax and give him a ride, you're covered.


Hate to break it to you but that is probably the only fact you'll find. You can't expect to get anything but screwed when you break their TOS and yes, there is TNC Gap insurance that is slowly being rolled out nationwide. Not sure how any of that is a myth?


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## grayspinner

I have driven a good number of high school students - it doesn't bother me to do so & they are fine pax. I've got 4 teenagers myself - it can be very difficult to get everyone where they need to go & work, I know it's very helpful to be able to order a ride for your teen. 

I've also picked up teens in the middle of the night who are obviously sneaking back in to the house. I'm glad they are getting home safely.


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## 5 Star Guy

The problem is taking kids you know on your time is covered and unlikely to be a problem. Working, driving kids you don't know could likely be a problem, plus you won't be covered in an accident. Anything can happen at any time, I would rather limit my risk and make sure I'm covered, by not charging to drive kids I don't know.


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## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Hate to break it to you but that is probably the only fact you'll find. You can't expect to get anything but screwed when you break their TOS and yes, there is TNC Gap insurance that is slowly being rolled out nationwide. Not sure how any of that is a myth?


First of all, you didn't break the TOS. The rider did.

You're wrong on that and you're wrong on the rest.

So provide a single example of a minor and a driver not being covered by Uber insurance in a accident or stop spreading this nonsense.


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## 5 Star Guy

I'm not wrong, you just don't understand. You took a pax when you should not have. Whether you knew the TOS or not doesn't matter. Now you get in an accident and you want to believe that they are so nice and will cover you when you should've known that you can't take that pax. Looks like you are more interested in driving for $5 than realizing how much money you are going to lose in an accident.


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## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> I'm not wrong, you just don't understand. You took a pax when you should not have. Whether you knew the TOS or not doesn't matter.


You have no way of knowing when any pax gets in your car whether they're complying with the TOS or not. Think about it.


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## 5 Star Guy

The only thing you need to know is you have the right pax, that they are not a minor who is alone in your car and for me that the account holder is in the car, unless its like a bar or law firm who has their own account. I haven't had that yet but it looks like that's possible, a corporate account.


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## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> The only thing you need to know is you have the right pax, that they are not a minor who is alone in your car and for me that the account holder is in the car, unless its like a bar or law firm who has their own account. I haven't had that yet but it looks like that's possible, a corporate account.


How do you know, when a young person gets in the car, whether they're 21 or 17? If you believe your livelihood is at stake, the only answer you can give me is that you're carding them all.

How do you know, when you pick up "Mary" and the rider identifies as "Mary," that the rider is actually Mary? Maybe she's not Mary. Maybe she's a different Mary. The only way to be reasonably sure would be to check her ID. Thus your answer must be that you check the ID of every rider.

But I know you don't check IDs.

And I know you've just made up the bit about minors not being insured out of thin air. It's just your opinion. Not based on any facts at all.


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## 5 Star Guy

Geez, how do you expect them to cover you when their policy is to not cover them? So you want them to do you a favor?


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## Jvc21

Why no officer, I was not touching that minor in any way. In no way, shape, or form am I even close to a convicted child molester.

No. End of story. Don't even try to justify minor PAX pickups.


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## 5 Star Guy

Bingo, we have a winner! That and finding out you're not fully covered, some of these drivers here will risk a lot over $5. Don't do it.


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## Coachman

Jvc21 said:


> Why no officer, I was not touching that minor in any way. In no way, shape, or form am I even close to a convicted child molester.
> 
> No. End of story. Don't even try to justify minor PAX pickups.


Show me one driver who's been falsely accused of sexually assaulting a minor.

Show me one driver who was in accident while driving a minor and Uber refused coverage.

Just one.


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## Jvc21

None that are public to my knowledge.

Rules state no one under 18 without an adult. Why risk a he said she said debate if things go wrong? Doesn't take much for a minor to say "driver touched me" to get screwed over.

Dash cam advertisement


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## Coachman

Jvc21 said:


> Doesn't take much for a minor to say "driver touched me" to get screwed over.


If it didn't take much, we'd see it happening all the time.

You can't find one case out of 160,000 Uber drivers in the US.


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## Jvc21

You're most likely correct.

But why risk it? Why have such a rule in place for uber?


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## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> If it didn't take much, we'd see it happening all the time.
> 
> You can't find one case out of 160,000 Uber drivers in the US.


Not sure what your point is, lately. Are you saying it doesn't happen or that you haven't heard any chatter? Does it matter, when since it is possible, that you should avoid it? Doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it, including the fact that they don't allow it. Period.


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## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Not sure what your point is, lately. Are you saying it doesn't happen or that you haven't heard any chatter? Does it matter, when since it is possible, that you should avoid it? Doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it, including the fact that they don't allow it. Period.


If Uber doesn't allow it, then why are they hooking me up with all these underage riders? Uber knows full well that teens use their service. In fact I suspect they're promoting it. Another driver posted an email from Uber support on this issue. And the advice from Uber was to use your best judgment. That's all the answer I need.

Look, if you don't want to take minors, I get it. Just don't come in these threads and tell people they're not covered by insurance, or that they're likely to have false molestation claims filed against them. Both are nonsense.


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## I_Like_Spam

I never had a problem with minors as a cab driver, and never heard of any other drivers who had false charges of molestation or other problems with the kids. There were several minors who were steady riders, particularly on Sunday night when they went home to mom after spending weekends with dad.

I think the risk is far overstated


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## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> If Uber doesn't allow it, then why are they hooking me up with all these underage riders? Uber knows full well that teens use their service. In fact I suspect they're promoting it. Another driver posted an email from Uber support on this issue. And the advice from Uber was to use your best judgment. That's all the answer I need.
> 
> Look, if you don't want to take minors, I get it. Just don't come in these threads and tell people they're not covered by insurance, or that they're likely to have false molestation claims filed against them. Both are nonsense.


The email did not state that. The email stated you can choose not to take a kid, with an adult. That could be a crying baby, a kid kicking the seats, playing with the door locks, a kid with markers. The email stated to let them know if you believe a pax is a minor, alone. And its a fact, not nonsense.


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## Jvc21

Without starting a flame war, drivers have every right to do whatever they please in regards to who they pick up.

But in the event that a minor is hurt or abused, uber will not protect drivers. If that doesn't scare drivers away and you need to risk it for that fare, to each their own.

It's a rule that is set in stone by uber. Uber does very questionable things with acceptance rates, etc...but we can also control who we let inside of our cars.


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## Coachman

Most of these kids are quiet and polite. It's usually a short ride, from school to home or to a friend's house. They sit in the back and immediately get on their phone and don't say a peep for the entire ride.


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## 5 Star Guy

Maybe so, but you must see plenty of accidents with kids unfortunately. Like anything else, there's a risk, it isn't allowed, it's not covered and you can still do what you want. The problem is the parent probably isn't aware of the rule, the way you were not, which doesn't make it right either.


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## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> The email did not state that. The email stated you can choose not to take a kid, with an adult. That could be a crying baby, a kid kicking the seats, playing with the door locks, a kid with markers. The email stated to let them know if you believe a pax is a minor, alone. And its a fact, not nonsense.


You're really doubling down on this?

Here's the email...



> Regarding your concern, I'd like to inform you that we do allow our riders to request for another rider. However, as our independent partner, questions such as this are left to your discretion. You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger and_ if you feel uncomfortable _with having an underage rider, you may politely cancel the trip. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know.


First... "questions such as this are _left to your discretion_".

Second... "you are not required to start a trip" and "if you feel uncomfortable with having an underage rider _you may _politely cancel the trip.

Third... "if you completed a trip with a rider that you believe is _under an appropriate age_ and you'd _like us to investigate further_...."

How much more obvious can they make it for you?


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## Stygge

Uber told me:
- There is no problem transporting an unaccompanied child
- There is no problem to transport someone on another person's account

I have tons of experience driving children so I may proliferate into this area. At least in California it's a high margin business.


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## 5 Star Guy

Coachman, Its obvious that you need the money, you're willing to sell your house to pay for the lawsuit and that you take a canned, generic email as fact when the TOS states minors are not allowed, alone. The email you quote is for pax who have minors with them. Maybe you don't want a baby crying on the way to the doctor or something. Geez. Most on here follow rules and don't want to sell their house over a $10 ride. Do what you want but the point of this thread is to let drivers know what they should and should not do. I hope nothing happens, and without TNC coverage you are definitely screwed.


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## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> The email you quote is for pax who have minors with them.


Where does it say that?


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## 5 Star Guy

It says at your discretion, when the TOS says they are not allowed, alone. That means I don't want a mother with a kid who does not have a child seat. I do not want a father with a baby crying. Not sure why you're not getting it? Good luck contacting them when you get in an accident. Yes, my pax is a minor, bleeding on their head, alone. Sorry that's not covered.


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## 5 Star Guy

Your best bet is to get a straight answer at your local office, although I don't see you doing that.


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## 5 Star Guy

Just before you go to your local office to figure it out, read what you wrote, its right there, the other driver's email stated minor.
Third... "if you completed a trip with a rider that you believe is _under an appropriate age_ and you'd _like us to investigate further_...."


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## Stygge

5 Star Guy said:


> Just before you go to your local office to figure it out, read what you wrote, its right there, the other driver's email stated minor.
> Third... "if you completed a trip with a rider that you believe is _under an appropriate age_ and you'd _like us to investigate further_...."


Why do you write so much $hit? Sometimes it's better to shut up and let people think you're a fool than to open your mouth and prove it! Uber totally allows unaccompanied minors and it has no implication on insurance. It's fine if you don't want to pick up minors but please just shut up.


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## 5 Star Guy

Stygge said:


> Why do you write so much $hit? Sometimes it's better to shut up and let people think you're a fool than to open your mouth and prove it! Uber totally allows unaccompanied minors and it has no implication on insurance. It's fine if you don't want to pick up minors but please just shut up.


Not sure what your deal is but the CSR said to let them know if you pax is a minor and the TOS states you must be the account holder and can not be a minor so yes, take your advice, please.


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## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Just before you go to your local office to figure it out, read what you wrote, its right there, the other driver's email stated minor.
> Third... "if you completed a trip with a rider that you believe is _under an appropriate age_ and you'd _like us to investigate further_...."


You seem to have trouble interpreting that email. It says taking minors is up to "your discretion." Everything after that is strictly filler.


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## Beur

Coachman said:


> If Uber doesn't allow it, then why are they hooking me up with all these underage riders? Uber knows full well that teens use their service. In fact I suspect they're promoting it. Another driver posted an email from Uber support on this issue. And the advice from Uber was to use your best judgment. That's all the answer I need.
> 
> Look, if you don't want to take minors, I get it. Just don't come in these threads and tell people they're not covered by insurance, or that they're likely to have false molestation claims filed against them. Both are nonsense.


Right here section 3 in black and white uber states the service is not available to anyone under 18 and you may not authorize others to use your account unless the are accompanied by YOU!!!!

https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms


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## Stygge

The CSR said that you don't have to pick up anyone if you're not comfortable with it. Age is not a factor in that. I am more comfortable with kids than with drunks and I make my choice. You make yours. There is not anything prohibiting a minor to take a ride. It is not allowed for minors to create an account just like facebook. And yeah my 10 y/o has a facebook account.


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## Stygge

Beur said:


> Right here section 3 in black and white uber states the service is not available to anyone under 18 and you may not authorize others to use your account unless the are accompanied by YOU!!!!
> 
> https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms


I will run the highlighted section through support an see what their take is.


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## 5 Star Guy

Please go their office and take your advice. It is very clear, for some reason you insist on taking minors alone, for $5.


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## 5 Star Guy

The email does not state that, it states an adult with a minor you don't have to take, as I've stated several times.


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## 5 Star Guy

Beur said:


> Right here section 3 in black and white uber states the service is not available to anyone under 18 and you may not authorize others to use your account unless the are accompanied by YOU!!!!
> 
> https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms


Good luck wasting your time at the office.


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## Beur

Stygge said:


> I will run the highlighted section through support an see what their take is.


You can run it by support all you want.

It explicitly says "you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistic services from Third Party Providers [Drivers] unless they are accompanied by you."

What do you want it written in the blood of a ESL CSR? It's clear from the CSR email posted even they don't know Uber TOS.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. Or in this case you can spoon feed an Uber driver but you can't make them eat.


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## Coachman

Beur said:


> Right here section 3 in black and white uber states the service is not available to anyone under 18 and you may not authorize others to use your account unless the are accompanied by YOU!!!!


If Uber doesn't want me providing my service to riders under 18 years of age then they need to stop sending me all these requests from these riders.

Furthermore, you have absolutely no way of knowing when a rider gets in your back seat whether they're an authorized user or not. So you might as well throw the whole thing out.


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## 5 Star Guy

That is your problem, like you want to believe you are covered when you are definitely not. Go ask them to do you a favor and see how that goes, or just don't take that risk, which is the point of this thread. The CSR said to report minors, I suggest you do that next time to save another driver's butt and yours.


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## Stygge

Beur said:


> You can run it by support all you want.
> 
> It explicitly says "you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistic services from Third Party Providers [Drivers] unless they are accompanied by you."
> 
> What do you want it written in the blood of a ESL CSR? It's clear from the CSR email posted even they don't know Uber TOS.
> 
> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. Or in this case you can spoon feed an Uber driver but you can't make them eat.


I agree that the user agreement sounds clear even though it contradicts what uber tells us. Is there anything on the driver side that would not allow me to pick them up?


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## 5 Star Guy

You can sell heroin to pax too. The point is you are definitely not going to be covered if you get in an accident, they don't want to pay anything and will find that an easy way out. I hope you rent.


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## Beur

Coachman said:


> If Uber doesn't want me providing my service to riders under 18 years of age then they need to stop sending me all these requests from these riders.
> 
> Furthermore, you have absolutely no way of knowing when a rider gets in your back seat whether they're an authorized user or not. So you might as well throw the whole thing out.


You hopeless and helpless. Clearly you need the fare and are willing to put your financial wellbeing at risk for a few dollars.

At some point in life you have to take responsibility for your actions. When you wind up in court, ignorance of the terms of service isn't going to be a defense, much like ignorance of the law isn't a defense. Employers ask employees all the time to do things that aren't right or legal, you have to have the moral fortitude and knowledge to challenge those who ask you to do things that go against the rules of the company or the law.

Uber on!


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## Beur

Stygge said:


> I agree that the user agreement sounds clear even though it contradicts what uber tells us. Is there anything on the driver side that would not allow me to pick them up?


Do you want me to shake it for you after you finish peeing too? There's a site partners.uber.com that I'm sure you have access too, if not use Google.

Who did *YOUR* homework when *YOU* were in school?


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## 5 Star Guy

I like having these discussions, it's all fun and games here until one of these drivers gets in an accident with a minor though, whose parents weren't aware of the rule and find out they aren't covered for violating the TOS and are going after you, big time. Good luck, you will definitely need more than luck.


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## Beur

5 Star Guy said:


> You can sell heroin to pax too. The point is you are definitely not going to be covered if you get in an accident, they don't want to pay anything and will find that an easy way out. I hope you rent.


Can I get a dime bag from ya? SMDH


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## 5 Star Guy

The funny part is this was answered on the first page.


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## Beur

5 Star Guy said:


> The funny part is this was answered on the first page.


Yep, answered it in the 4th post. I figured people were too lazy to click the link, that's why I posted the screenshot tonight.


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## 5 Star Guy

Stygge said:


> I agree that the user agreement sounds clear even though it contradicts what uber tells us. Is there anything on the driver side that would not allow me to pick them up?


Not to beat a dead horse but you are the independent contractor, it is your job to know the rules and know your job.


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## Coachman

Beur said:


> Yep, answered it in the 4th post. I figured people were too lazy to click the link, that's why I posted the screenshot tonight.


So you believe that you can use the TOS for riders to determine what is or is not allowed for drivers? You and 5 Star are really something else.

There's not a peep in the Partner contract about minors. Not a word. It says you shall transport the "...User and any individuals authorized by such
User..."


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## Stygge

Coachman said:


> So you believe that you can use the TOS for riders to determine what is or is not allowed for drivers? You and 5 Star are really something else.
> 
> There's not a peep in the Partner contract about minors. Not a word. It says you shall transport the "...User and any individuals authorized by such
> User..."


The ignore functions works well. This thread now looks ok even though there are some different opinions. That after only ignoring two people!


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## 5 Star Guy

Doesn't change being wrong, just a coward.


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## Beur

Coachman said:


> So you believe that you can use the TOS for riders to determine what is or is not allowed for drivers? You and 5 Star are really something else.
> 
> There's not a peep in the Partner contract about minors. Not a word. It says you shall transport the "...User and any individuals authorized by such
> User..."


WHY do you think Uber has a TOS for its riders? You're not the brightest bulb in the chandelier are you?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> So you believe that you can use the TOS for riders to determine what is or is not allowed for drivers? You and 5 Star are really something else.
> 
> There's not a peep in the Partner contract about minors. Not a word. It says you shall transport the "...User and any individuals authorized by such
> User..."


It does though, that is the point here. You are going to be screwed taking a pax who violates the TOS. All they will say is deal with the pax, it isn't our problem, we just tossed them the way they toss drivers. Then the parents are going after you and all you can do is go to your insurance who will definitely not cover you since you are doing TNC work which is not covered. Maybe now you'll get it. Both the parents and them are putting it on you.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Doesn't change being wrong, just a coward.


Reason tells me that if Uber had a policy of penalizing drivers for transporting minors, and considering that thousands of minors are transported by Uber drivers every day, that you would be able to provide some concrete examples of drivers who'd been penalized. But you can't. And the fact that that doesn't bother you means there's something terribly wrong with your thought process. I tend to believe that you've held this position for so long that you simply can't allow yourself to question it.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> It does though, that is the point here. You are going to be screwed taking a pax who violates the TOS.


Well I posed a question before that went unanswered. When a passenger steps into your vehicle, how do you know whether that passenger is in compliance with the TOS? You don't. Which means with every ride you take, by your own argument, you're putting your home and your livelihood at risk.

Now suspect that you'll find some neat trick for rationalizing that. But that's all it can be... a rationalization.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

As you know, they are counting on the driver to first, not take the pax and second to report it. No one cares what they do, you are screwed for doing it. For that matter no one cares what you do, I was just trying to help prevent you from getting screwed, you're welcome.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Well I posed a question before that went unanswered. When a passenger steps into your vehicle, how do you know whether that passenger is in compliance with the TOS? You don't. Which means with every ride you take, by your own argument, you're putting your home and your livelihood at risk.
> 
> Now suspect that you'll find some neat trick for rationalizing that. But that's all it can be... a rationalization.


Looks like I just answered it but just in case, no one cares about you and you are taking a huge risk, especially if you do not have TNC Gap insurance. No one is making you do this work, but it is your job to know the risks, the rules and laws.


----------



## Coachman

You understand that when a school sends a note home to parents saying that they shall not allow their Kindergartners to walk home alone, that's not the same thing as telling the crossing guard that she may not allow Kindergartners to cross the street.

Apparently you don't.


----------



## Thatendedbadly

*USER REQUIREMENTS AND CONDUCT.*
_*The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18.*_ You may not authorize *third parties* to use your Account, and *you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you. *You may not assign or otherwise transfer your Account to any other person or entity. You agree to comply with all applicable laws when using the Services, and you may only use the Services for lawful purposes (_e.g._, no transport of unlawful or hazardous materials). You will not in your use of the Services cause nuisance, annoyance, inconvenience, or property damage, whether to the Third Party Provider or any other party. In certain instances you may be asked to provide proof of identity to access or use the Services, and you agree that you may be denied access to or use of the Services if you refuse to provide proof of identity.

It's pretty simple, not sure why this discussion has dragged on so long. Uber covers their rear ends, not yours. You pick up a non-account holder-I know we probably all have-you're on the hook, not Uber and possibly not James River. So, if you cancel the fare because you've discovered that you're being used as 'Mom's Taxi' without Mom actually being present, you can cancel the fare, hell, cancel the fare 'other' and possibly get paid the cancellation fee, you acted in good faith, the pax didn't.


----------



## Coachman

In fact I'll forget every other argument I've made in this thread and leave it at one...

Provide me one example, of all the 160,000 or so Uber drivers in the US, of a driver who's been penalized for driving a minor. Just one.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> You understand that when a school sends a note home to parents saying that they shall not allow their Kindergartners to walk home alone, that's not the same thing as telling the crossing guard that she may not allow Kindergartners to cross the street.
> 
> Apparently you don't.


Geez enough already, do what you want and know that you will not be covered by anyone.


----------



## Coachman

Thatendedbadly said:


> It's pretty simple, not sure why this discussion has dragged on so long.


Show me one example of all the 160,000 Uber drivers in the US of a single driver who's been penalized for driving a minor. Just one. Pretty simple, right?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> In fact I'll forget every other argument I've made in this thread and leave it at one...
> 
> Provide me one example, of all the 160,000 or so Uber drivers in the US, of a driver who's been penalized for driving a minor. Just one.


Those parents are tossed, they no longer have an account and there is no record of it, do you have records of cleaning fees for November?


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Geez enough already, do what you want and know that you will not be covered by anyone.


The only way it will be enough is when people like you stop jumping into these threads and trying to scare people about driving minors.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Those parents are tossed, they no longer have an account and there is no record of it, do you have records of cleaning fees for November?


I have an envelope and every receipt goes into it each day. I'm sorting through it now for tax purposes.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

It's very sad that your only argument is you've done it and know other drivers who have. Maybe they didn't realize how they are not covered by anyone.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> The only way it will be enough is when people like you stop jumping into these threads and trying to scare people about driving minors.


Geez, I'm informing drivers like you who don't know what they need to know, which is why we are all here. You have their records of all the cleaning fee claims for November in your market?


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> It's very sad that your only argument is you've done it and know other drivers who have. Maybe they didn't realize how they are not covered by anyone.


That's not my argument. Where did I ever say that? Good grief.


----------



## Coachman

If drivers who transport minors are putting themselves at great risk, as you claim, then show me the drivers who've suffered for driving minors.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

You don't need to, which is why I figured that was your argument. The only point you need to realize was on the first page, you will not be covered by them and you will definitely not be covered by your insurance. I don't know what to tell you if that does not matter to you. The best part will be when the parents go after you since they did not know that was buried in the TOS. You are the one being paid for the service, it is your job to know. As for carding or retina eye scan, fingerprint scan NSA background check to determine if someone is a minor, just cancel and report it, like they said to do. Geez. The drivers get deactivated when they are in an accident and the parents get tossed when they violate the TOS, there is no record, which benefits them like everything else. They could care less about you, I guess you do not realize that.


----------



## kraftlos

Is there anything in the insurance policy that states accidents will not be covered in the event that the PAX is violating the ToS? I could see the driver and uber might have some exposure if the minor was riding without the parent's knowledge, but I don't see how the insurer could refuse to cover when the driver has acted in good faith and genuinely didn't know the passenger is underage.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> The only point you need to realize was on the first page, you will not be covered by them and you will definitely not be covered by your insurance.


Show me where Uber says you won't be covered by insurance if you transport a minor. It should be easy for you to find.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

They will find out there was a minor alone and deny the claim so they don't have to pay for the 1M policy when the kid is dead. Yesterday I was thinking how 1M is really not that much and what are the amounts that are normally paid for those kinds of accidents? Some guy plowed into a restaurant here and 2 customers were killed. It happens, unfortunately. I hope it doesn't happen to me or anyone on here. So they will kick the parents off the platform, deny the claim and then the parents are going after you and your insurance. Your insurance is most likely not covered even without a minor in your car. There are plenty of threads on that. Then after you find out none of the insurance you thought you had is covering you, you'll file for bankruptcy and need to pay the parents back for the rest of your life. All for a $5 trip after expenses.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Show me where Uber says you won't be covered by insurance if you transport a minor. It should be easy for you to find.


At this point it's clear you should not be driving for them. It's on the first page here. They are not paying drivers [what they used to in several markets] but you think they will bend the rules and pay? How about you show me where they bend the rules that are not in their favor and pay more than they should.


----------



## CIncinnatiDriver

Soo....what does it mean, exactly, that no one else may use the rider's account.
Meaning no one else may log into their phone and call an Uber? 
makes sense.

How do we go from that to no pax may order an Uber for someone else? (who is not a minor) 

IOW....may we or may we not drive an adult who's Uber was ordered by someone else? 
I though we could..

Not to nitpick words...just need clarity.


----------



## Beur

CIncinnatiDriver said:


> Soo....what does it mean, exactly, that no one else may use the rider's account.
> Meaning no one else may log into their phone and call an Uber?
> makes sense.
> 
> How do we go from that to no pax may order an Uber for someone else? (who is not a minor)
> 
> IOW....may we or may we not drive an adult who's Uber was ordered by someone else?
> I though we could..
> 
> Not to nitpick words...just need clarity.


i think it's spelled out clearly that you cannot order a ride for someone else on your account.


----------



## CIncinnatiDriver

Beur said:


> i think it's spelled out clearly that you cannot order a ride for someone else on your account.


Well holy crap. I've done that. I thought that was part of the deal! Like, a regular, standard Uber thing.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> The only point you need to realize was on the first page, you will not be covered by them and you will definitely not be covered by your insurance.


Show me where on the "first page" Uber says you won't be covered by insurance if the rider violates the TOS.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

CIncinnatiDriver said:


> Well holy crap. I've done that. I thought that was part of the deal! Like, a regular, standard Uber thing.


It's the same issue as a minor, why do you think they would care if a minor was alone or a pax was not the account holder? Who cares its just easy money. The answer is for liability, not money. The money part is easy, the liability is huge, just like hailing is not allowed. There is a reason for it. Now an adult gets killed in your car, how many pax, one. Who is filing the claim? You are an independent contractor and must follow the rules and know the rules. You are not taking friends to the movies. Be very careful, it's bad enough 90% of drivers are not covered the way they believe they are.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Show me where on the "first page" Uber says you won't be covered by insurance if the rider violates the TOS.


Geez, I thought you figured it out by now. You are the one who has to show thousands of drivers that they broke their own rules for a poor driver and did them a huge favor. We all know how they are so I'm not sure why you think they will cut you a break. Its all money, and the less they pay the better. Go call Travass and their insurance company, just get it in writing from their lawyer.


----------



## Coachman

From the first page:



> As drivers, Is it Uber policy to allow juveniles under the age of 18 to have an account and request rides ?
> 
> Thanks for your email. I'm happy to provide information here regarding your inquiry, Stacy. Uber prides itself in providing a safe technology platform for both riders _and_ drivers. All riders must be 18 years of age and have a valid credit card to pay for trips. Requiring that both riders and drivers submit personal information in order to make use of the Uber system creates a platform that holds both riders and drivers accountable. And what if a partner encountered a rider like under 18 year old? *As an independent contractor, this are left to our partner's discretion. *You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know. Hope this helps and please don't hesitate to reach out with additional questions.


End of thread.


----------



## Archie8616

uberdriverfornow said:


> But then they state if we believe someone is underage and want them to investigate so I'm really not even sure what that means in its context.
> 
> Who exactly are Third Party Providers ?


Great question! I was wondering that also. I believe the "UBER DRIVERS/Partners" are considered to be Third Party Providers. It made more sense when you read the portion about the clean up fee's. It really drives the point home that the partners/drivers are the "Third Party Providers".


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> From the first page:
> End of thread.


Not sure why you're here, looks like most of your pax are minors and you don't really care about any rules.

You left the part out, If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know.

In other words, as has been stated all over this thread, you are not allowed, you are not covered and you are screwed if you take a minor alone. Get a lawyer and head over to the office. I don't see you doing that.


----------



## UberJag

I've taken high school kids and never thought much of it other than I don't think I would have let my daughter do it when she was a teenager. I once took four - 17 year old girls to a Rave party and I know I would have never let my daughter go out of the house dressed like they were! I realize some parents just aren't very involved with their kids and just give them Uber access so they don't have to drive them around. I've taken a 16 and 12 yo to karate lessons. I've picked up teenage boys that were out fishing. I picked up teenage girls at the mall. Now I'm wondering after reading this thread if I should continue doing this! Confused!  I would think that the minor or the parents are breaking the rule by signing up and taking an Uber if they are underage. I've never seen anything that states I need to check IDs!


----------



## 5 Star Guy

This issue seems to be an area as hot as drivers not knowing you are not fully covered in an accident. Its not a big deal, not sure why it took 6 pages here to explain it. You have an option to take minors, with an adult. Some people don't like kids, don't want a baby going in their diapers, kids kicking the seats, apparently there is an option not to take them.

What is not an option is to take minors alone. If you get in an accident you'll go through a revolving door and all the responsibility is on you for not knowing or following the rules. Make sure you rent so they can't take your house.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> You left the part out, If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know.


I didn't leave that part out. It was right there in my post. Notice they don't say _under 18 years old_. They say _under an appropriate age._ You see the distinction there? They're leaving it to you to determine whether a young rider is appropriate or not. If you're comfortable with that well-behaved 14 y/o you're driving home from school, then Uber is fine with that also. It's up to your _discretion._ What do you think it means when they say _"...as an independent contractor, this are (sic) left to our partner's discretion?"_

It doesn't say anything about not being insured, does it?

When are you going to give up?


----------



## Coachman

UberJag said:


> Now I'm wondering after reading this thread if I should continue doing this! Confused!  I would think that the minor or the parents are breaking the rule by signing up and taking an Uber if they are underage. I've never seen anything that states I need to check IDs!


Read through the thread carefully and you'll see that those telling you you're not covered by insurance with a minor in the car are just making that up. They have no basis at all for that claim.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Read through the thread carefully and you'll see that those telling you you're not covered by insurance with a minor in the car are just making that up. They have no basis at all for that claim.


Unbelievable. The TOS states pax can not give access to their account. The TOS states minors can not have an account. The email states if you believe a minor, since they are not talking about adults are they, was in your car that you should notify them. Not sure what you don't get but at this point you will be screwed in an accident. Hope it was worth it. Let us know how it goes.


----------



## UberLou

I've picked up Adults that are more Juvenile than Juvenile riders.


----------



## MyRedUber

Jvc21 said:


> Why have such a rule in place for uber?


To protect Uber.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MyRedUber said:


> To protect Uber.


Bingo, we have a winner! Imagine that, they are more concerned about a minor pax than some drivers on here. The huge risk is not worth $5 after expenses. Sure drivers and pax apparently don't know. Now you do and should tell other drivers and pax.


----------



## Stygge

From uber:

Thank you for writing in about your questions and concerns.

Per our Terms of Service, you have to be 18 or older to have an Uber account.

However, if someone is using someone else's account, there is no reason the driver would know that he/she was acting inappropriately or without permission. *It is common for parents to use Uber to provide transportation for their children*.

Uber's in-depth driver background checks and safety features built into the app, you can rest assured that Uber is the safest ride on the road.

As an independent contractor you have the right to refuse service to underage passengers.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Glad to see you back.


----------



## UberJag

This just shows me that Uber needs more training for drivers! We should be told not to pick up minors if this is the case.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Drivers should also be told that they are not fully insured in an accident, you will be tossed off the system, you will most likely not be covered by your own insurance and you will most likely lose your insurance company when they find out you did not notify them you're making money driving your car around. These seem to be the two biggest issues most drivers do not know and need to. At least you are in CA, get the TNC Gap insurance before you drive today if you don't already have it. Now they say check your policy, its one thing to take a friend to [the] movies, you might want to increase your coverage for taking some pax to the movies.


----------



## DriverX

5 Star Guy said:


> Drivers do take minors alone, some are on here. Its never a good idea, nothing is worth a $7 trip after expenses. I was thinking of the loophole, you must have a credit card in your name, now you can buy those prepaid cards in cash and use them. All I know is we aren't paid enough for that kind of responsibility or liability.


Yep I had some A hole dad try to uber his kid from elementary school, to a different city like 20 miles away. I felt bad for the kid, who was on crutches, after talking to the d bag dad who wouldn't agree to a tip for me breaking the law, I had to tell him to get out while his dad ordered another uber. These people shouldn't be allowed to have kids!


----------



## UberJag

5 Star Guy said:


> Drivers should also be told that they are not fully insured in an accident, you will be tossed off the system, you will most likely not be covered by your own insurance and you will most likely lose your insurance company when they find out you did not notify them you're making money driving your car around. These seem to be the two biggest issues most drivers do not know and need to. At least you are in CA, get the TNC Gap insurance before you drive today if you don't already have it. Now they say check your policy, its one thing to take a friend to [the] movies, you might want to increase your coverage for taking some pax to the movies.


When I went to the Uber station to have my car inspected when I first started I asked the guy there about insurance...specifically if I should notify my insurance company (I asked him that as I was handing him my insurance documentation). He told me I am covered under Uber and that I do not need to let my insurance company know. I'm not doubting you, I just don't know what to believe. Are you an insurance salesman?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

You would be fully covered in CA if you have the new TNC Gap coverage. Google it first and do not contact your insurance company. You will most likely need to switch companies. TNC Gap coverage is not in every state, yet. Uber covers some things, not everything and like this thread, you need to know that before you drive. Everyone.


----------



## DriverX

UberJag said:


> This just shows me that Uber needs more training for drivers! We should be told not to pick up minors if this is the case.


Well if uber did that they could be seen as our employer. That would wreck their business. Clearly their response above makes it it totally ambiguous as to what you are supposed to do. THis is becasue Ubers legal team sets it up that way. They never told you to pick up a kid, but they provide such a safe service that apparently there are lots of users doing this so use your own discretion.

Keeping in mind of course if you cancel too many of these underage riders, you can get DEACTIVATED. your A$$ effed regardless. I don't pick up little kids, thats my policy. I have driven 14 and up though but avoid them if possible. Think if you drive some 14 year old girl to some dirty old mans house. Will uber protect you when the parents sue you personally? you are a independent contractor, with no insurance coverage from uber in that regard. Just another way uber shifts the true cost of doing business over to the drivers.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

You can't be sued for taking a kid to a sexual predator. You will be sued when you get in an accident on the way though. What some of these drivers don't get is the liability is on the driver, not the kid, not the parents and certainly not them. When you realize that you will realize how risky driving is and when you do find out what TNC Gap insurance is your head will explode.


----------



## DriverX

5 Star Guy said:


> You can't be sued for taking a kid to a sexual predator. You will be sued when you get in an accident on the way though. What some of these drivers don't get is the liability is on the driver, not the kid, not the parents and certainly not them. When you realize that you will realize how risky driving is and when you do find out what TNC Gap insurance is your head will explode.


rewrite this so that it makes more sense


----------



## 5 Star Guy

You are not responsible for the destination. You are liable and responsible if you are not properly insured and find out that you were mislead and misinformed by them by not having the same insurance you thought you had from your regular insurance. There are several threads on TNC Gap insurance. You are screwed without it.


----------



## DriverX

Coachman said:


> Show me where Uber says you won't be covered by insurance if you transport a minor. It should be easy for you to find.


Uber clearly says that you must be 18 to sign up. That is the language that's all they need to say. Over 18 is their policy and the pax and you the driver broke it. so Uber isn't responsible. Uber purposely makes it very ambiguous when explaining that to the drivers becasue they are hoping you will take these kids on rides. it's very clear once you read between the lines. the policy .is 18, legally thats what they will stand behind


----------



## 5 Star Guy

I'd like to keep this thread on topic, however the second big issue is the lack of insurance. Here is a new article, for CA.
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2016/03/03/400781.htm


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> Show me where on the "first page" Uber says you won't be covered by insurance if the rider violates the TOS.


It's very simple go look at one of your waybills it names the specific passenger who requested the ride. If you're giving a ride and the named passenger is not in the car you're not covered.


----------



## Jvc21

So I guess it's more of an insurance issue than an actual uber policy?

A little off topic, I'm willing to bet more than 90% of uber drivers don't have correct Rideshare insurance, thus putting their policy and their financial health in jeopardy. Minors just exponentially complicates the problem.


----------



## DriverX

This also raises the question of whether Uber insures the guests of a rider. I haven't read the policy in a while I don't remember, but I wouldn't be surprised if uber has left itself a way out of that too.


----------



## Beur

Archie8616 said:


> Great question! I was wondering that also. I believe the "UBER DRIVERS/Partners" are considered to be Third Party Providers. It made more sense when you read the portion about the clean up fee's. It really drives the point home that the partners/drivers are the "Third Party Providers".


You are correct, Uber is party number 1 who receives a ride request from the passenger who is party number 2, Uber than forwards said request to the Driver who is party number 3.


----------



## DriverX

Jvc21 said:


> So I guess it's more of an insurance issue than an actual uber policy?


Everything is an insurance issue when it comes to doing business in America. Corporations created an insurance and legal system around it to lock out the independent operators. Worked well for a long time in the taxi biz but Uber figured out a loophole and had the VC money to exploit it with their own wonky version of insurance. That's why uber is a "disruptor" business. THey have effectively pulled a end a round on the system setup to benefit the old school corporations. and there is so much new money being printed these days that they could get the huge VC money needed to do it. I bet most of ubers revenue goes into their legal dept.


----------



## Tequila Jake

The prohibition on minors is on the User side of the app. There is nothing I can find in the Driver Agreement mentioning minors.

Even though a user can't let someone else use their account, a user can request a ride for another person. The procedure is in the FAQ for users.

I interpret this to mean that the user can request a ride to have his escort brought to his house. But he can't let him or her log in using his username and password.

As far as minors having their own account. If a parent gives the kid a debit card and the kid creates his own Uber account, the TOS is absolutely meaningless since the minor can't legally enter a binding contract.

So Uber leaves it to us to decide whether we want to take the minor as a passenger. I take it on a case by case basis. The first time I took minors were two girls who had the closing shift where they worked. I couldn't see leaving them stranded in a mall parking lot at 1:00am.

Times I've refused include when I get to an address and there's a party of dozens of obviously underaged kids being broken up by police. I just keep going and cancel when I get to the next corner.

I do wish they'd add "Unaccompanied Minor" to the cancellation reasons. (I've sent this in as a suggestion -- waiting for the robot's response).


----------



## Beur

Jvc21 said:


> So I guess it's more of an insurance issue than an actual uber policy?
> 
> A little off topic, I'm willing to bet more than 90% of uber drivers don't have correct Rideshare insurance, thus putting their policy and their financial health in jeopardy. Minors just exponentially complicates the problem.


The under 18 policy is clearly spelled out in Uber's TOS section 3


----------



## Beur

DriverX said:


> This also raises the question of whether Uber insures the guests of a rider. I haven't read the policy in a while I don't remember, but I wouldn't be surprised if uber has left itself a way out of that too.


Look at the waybill I posted it lists the number of passengers.


----------



## Thatendedbadly

Jvc21 said:


> So I guess it's more of an insurance issue than an actual uber policy?


No, it's *your* issue. James River is an insurance company, insurance companies make their money by *collecting premiums* and *not paying claims*. Let's say an accident happens with Uber driver Z, the first question James River asks is *'who else was in the vehicle'?* Account holder isn't in the vehicle, *James River doesn't pay*. Your insurance company doesn't pay, you didn't spend the $300/month for a commercial endorsement, you're a part time driver, the Uber thing is sketchy enough, how could you make it work having to pay $300 a month for commercial insurance? Your car is wrecked, your personal insurance won't pay to have it fixed, your policy is cancelled for obvious reasons and as an added bonus you have the *personal civil liability *exposure. The only upside, if you're like most drivers you don't have enough tangible assets to make it worthwhile for a lawyer to go after you but I wouldn't count on that either, lose a judgement in a civil action and the court officer will collect all of your personal property if you can't come up with the cash. I have an acquaintance that's a court officer-I've served people for him-he makes his living taking people's stuff, quite legally, he always has an interesting tale to tell.


----------



## MyRedUber

This thread is jam packed full of specious arguments from arm chair lawyers.
#JustSaying


----------



## wk1102

UberJag said:


> This just shows me that Uber needs more training for drivers! We should be told not to pick up minors if this is the case.


More? You received training?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Thatendedbadly said:


> No, it's *your* issue. James River is an insurance company, insurance companies make their money by *collecting premiums* and *not paying claims*. Let's say an accident happens with Uber driver Z, the first question James River asks is *'who else was in the vehicle'?* Account holder isn't in the vehicle, *James River doesn't pay*. Your insurance company doesn't pay, you didn't spend the $300/month for a commercial endorsement, you're a part time driver, the Uber thing is sketchy enough, how could you make it work having to pay $300 a month for commercial insurance? Your car is wrecked, your personal insurance won't pay to have it fixed, your policy is cancelled for obvious reasons and as an added bonus you have the *personal civil liability *exposure. The only upside, if you're like most drivers you don't have enough tangible assets to make it worthwhile for a lawyer to go after you but I wouldn't count on that either, lose a judgement in a civil action and the court officer will collect all of your personal property if you can't come up with the cash. I have an acquaintance that's a court officer-I've served people for him-he makes his living taking people's stuff, quite legally, he always has an interesting tale to tell.


Bingo! No one cares who you take as a pax. You will care when you find out you are not covered at all. And sure if you want to try and argue that fact go ahead, and lose your case. Bottom line is they aren't going to pay anything and everyone will go after you. That really is all you need to know, that and if you don't have the TNC Gap coverage that you are still screwed.


----------



## ResIpsaUber

I don't think it is up to me to start taking pax I.D. It is not up to me to make a determination if a rider was underage. If I was a parent, I would WANT my kids to take ubers and probably have tracking things on their phones. It is probably by far the safest way to get your kid ushered around town. These parents and kids are super tech and smart. 

I don't see how Uber's insurance would not cover me in the event of an accident because a rider or parent violated a term of service. I would be interested though if anyone could find a provision in an actual policy that says so, rather than just guesswork among non-insurance lawyers.


----------



## Tequila Jake

DriverX said:


> Uber clearly says that you must be 18 to sign up. That is the language that's all they need to say. Over 18 is their policy and the pax and you the driver broke it. so Uber isn't responsible. Uber purposely makes it very ambiguous when explaining that to the drivers becasue they are hoping you will take these kids on rides. it's very clear once you read between the lines. the policy .is 18, legally thats what they will stand behind


In the driver contract, Uber clearly states you are not allowed to discriminate against riders based on age.

However, in the context of the prohibition, it might be intended to mean you can't discriminate against seniors. A lawyer would have to review the language to be sure.


----------



## DriverX

MyRedUber said:


> This thread is jam packed full of specious arguments from arm chair lawyers.
> #JustSaying


This guy thinks he's covered. LOL There's a reason uber can sell people rides for less than the cost of operating their own vehicle. It's becasue they are shifting the burden of responsibility and the costs of gas and maintenance and owning a vehicle to the driver. At the low rates you are driving at now you are losing money on every trip you take. You don't understand this becasue you don't add in the costs of RISK when calculating your actual nets. The potential RISK of an accident and bodily injury that you expose yourself to when driving for Uber is NEVER less than the minimum fare. It's very simple. A min fare grosses a driver in SD $2.40 for up to about 3 miles of driving.

Show me how $2.40 could possibly cover your gas, maintenance, time and RISK of death.


----------



## DriverX

ResIpsaUber said:


> I don't think it is up to me to start taking pax I.D. It is not up to me to make a determination if a rider was underage. If I was a parent, I would WANT my kids to take ubers and probably have tracking things on their phones. It is probably by far the safest way to get your kid ushered around town. These parents and kids are super tech and smart.
> 
> I don't see how Uber's insurance would not cover me in the event of an accident because a rider or parent violated a term of service. I would be interested though if anyone could find a provision in an actual policy that says so, rather than just guesswork among non-insurance lawyers.


You don't think it is, but let me be clear, in a court of Law Uber will definitely say that it IS your responsibility!

Yeah lets talk about those super smart techy parents that send a stranger to pick up there 9 year old from elementary school becasue they are too damn lazy or busy to do it themselves. Yeah thats smart and tech LOL if this is how you parent you should have your children taken away.

It is ignorant drivers that are making this unprofitable for us. I see it all the time, there will be one uberX available in a 30 mile radius, and that dummy won't log off long enough to force a surge for that area. THey sit there online waiting for a 1x trip. DUMB log off idiot and force a surge!


----------



## 5 Star Guy

ResIpsaUber said:


> I don't think it is up to me to start taking pax I.D. It is not up to me to make a determination if a rider was underage. If I was a parent, I would WANT my kids to take ubers and probably have tracking things on their phones. It is probably by far the safest way to get your kid ushered around town. These parents and kids are super tech and smart.
> 
> I don't see how Uber's insurance would not cover me in the event of an accident because a rider or parent violated a term of service. I would be interested though if anyone could find a provision in an actual policy that says so, rather than just guesswork among non-insurance lawyers.


Ok, so what is the purpose of a TOS then and what happens when you break any of them? The point is to be clear of their rules, which must follow the laws. You can't discriminate against age and a minor can not own a credit card and can not enter a contract. Their TOS states you can not transfer your account, you must be in the car with up to 3 other pax, who are on the waybill. They are concerned about a multimillion dollar lawsuit and not your $5 trip. As soon as you break the TOS everything gets voided. Too bad so sad I think they used to say.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

What it boils down to is everyone thinks drivers are dum and will do anything for $5. I'm here to change that. Check your insurance, increase it and get the TNC Gap as soon as its available. Drive less or don't drive at all if you don't have it. No one cares about you.


----------



## DriverX

5 Star Guy said:


> What it boils down to is everyone thinks drivers are dum and will do anything for $5. I'm here to change that. Check your insurance, increase it and get the TNC Gap as soon as its available. Drive less or don't drive at all if you don't have it. No one cares about you.


YEs only drive surges over 2x or for the guaranteed minimum hours and make sure you hit the criteria for the minimum. I guarantee you that you will not average more than $20 an hour driving in SD for 10 hours at a time. SO why hussle and put more niles on your car than necessary for less money. $25 hour gross minimums start at 4pm today and go to 3am. I'll be online I guarantee.


----------



## UberJag

wk1102 said:


> More? You received training?


Well, they did tell me where I'm allowed to pick people up at the airport.


----------



## Beur

It amazes me what people are willing to compromise on/put at risk for a measly minimum Uber fare. 

Uber on


----------



## Beur

UberJag said:


> Well, they did tell me where I'm allowed to pick people up at the airport.


Because they're not the one receiving the ticket


----------



## Uberduberdoo

What happens when that 15 year old girl you dropped off somewhere dissappears?
Cancel all underage unaccompanied riders. Email uber requesting the cancelation fee; stating, under the riders TOS the rider had no right to request services. Driver spend time and expense to drive to the rider who was operating outside their TOS therefore a cancelation fee is in order. Uber will pay, I do it every time and get the fee.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Did anyone catch the don't tell your insurance, post above at the inspection station. It's nuts.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> As soon as you break the TOS everything gets voided.


You keep saying this and it's a lie.

Besides, the TOS you insist on referring to apply to the rider, not the driver. It's not your responsibility to make sure a 17 y/o doesn't have an account.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> You keep saying this and it's a lie.
> 
> Besides, the TOS you insist onreferring to apply the the rider, not the driver.


If you have read every thread I have and others have spelled it out very clearly. I don't think you should be driving at this point, you will be paying restitution for the rest of your life.


----------



## UberJag

5 Star Guy said:


> Did anyone catch the don't tell your insurance, post above at the inspection station. It's nuts.


As soon as that guy at Uber told me that I thought "I bet he's not supposed to tell me that!" I probably shouldn't have shared that story online.

I'm going to look into the GAP insurance though. $15 - $20 a year...it's worth the peace of mind.

As far as picking up minors, I'm going to use my own judgement on that one. I won't be transporting young kids between their divorced parents ever but taking a teenager a short distance I'll probably still do.


----------



## Coachman

I had two teens ride this afternoon. Both going home from school. The first was a boy from the senior high school. The second was a girl from the junior high school. I had a waybill with insurance certificate for each ride.

And neither student accused me of sexual assault. <gasp!>


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Don't take anyone unless they are the account holder or you are no longer covered. Its well known not to tell your insurance, that is why there is a huge problem and exactly why you can't take anyone who is not the account holder. Now they suggest once you get the Gap, to increase your coverage. Your coverage is based on your assets, which you can lose and restitution payments. There is a risk here, taking a risk is just as bad not knowing there is a risk.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> I had two teens ride this afternoon. Both going home from school. The first was a boy from the senior high school. The second was a girl from the junior high school. I had a waybill with insurance certificate for each ride.
> 
> And neither student accused me of sexual assault. <gasp!>


I have no doubt you took those pax. So the waybill states the number of pax and the adult whose account it was, was a pax or tell me you just broke all of the rules and risked having to pay those parents for the rest of your life. So sad, really.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

Beur said:


> Clearly this CSR doesn't know the Uber TOS. It's explicitly spelled out, in number 3 of their TOS, you must be 18 to use the service.


POST # 12/Beur: Easy there, Sandbox
Savant! The 
Zamboangan CSR is likely working
PT after Middle School. What IS the
Age Limit/Child Labor Law in the
"Archipelago" ?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Casuale Haberdasher said:


> POST # 12/Beur: Easy there, Sandbox
> Savant! The
> Zamboangan CSR is likely working
> PT after Middle School. What IS the
> Age Limit/Child Labor Law in the
> "Archipelago" ?


Well apparently everyone is wrong except Coachman. Amazing. He reminds me of the other driver on here who denies the existence of TNC Gap insurance. These are probably the two biggest issues that most drivers are not aware of, on purpose. That's why I'm here. People need to know they're going to be screwed big time.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Breaking news a taxi here accidently went into reverse and killed the elderly pax who just got out of the taxi. Real world folks, its no joke.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

5 Star Guy said:


> Hate to break it to you but that is probably the only fact you'll find. You can't expect to get anything but screwed when you break their TOS and yes, there is TNC Gap insurance that is slowly being rolled out nationwide. Not sure how any of that is a myth?


POST # 28/5 Star Guy: Fret NOT Fellow
Bostonian, Coachman 
is just enjoying the Opportunity to Urin-
ate on your leg, while Distracting You by
exclaiming, "HEY! It's Raining !"

Mentoring Bison: PESKIEST DFWer!


----------



## Beur

Casuale Haberdasher said:


> POST # 12/Beur: Easy there, Sandbox
> Savant! The
> Zamboangan CSR is likely working
> PT after Middle School. What IS the
> Age Limit/Child Labor Law in the
> "Archipelago" ?


I believe you've over estimated the education requirement, kindergarten graduation is sufficient.


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> I had two teens ride this afternoon. Both going home from school. The first was a boy from the senior high school. The second was a girl from the junior high school. I had a waybill with insurance certificate for each ride.
> 
> And neither student accused me of sexual assault. <gasp!>


You may have had a waybill, but did the name of the teen passengers match the name on the waybill?

Every ride generates a waybill, the question becomes does the name match the passenger?


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Well apparently everyone is wrong except Coachman. Amazing.


Of the people coming into this thread over the course of the past day or so, most don't seem to know what the policy is. The few, other than me, who tried to set you straight have either abandoned the thread or put you on ignore.


----------



## UberJag

5 Star Guy said:


> Don't take anyone unless they are the account holder or you are no longer covered.


 You can pick up people that aren't the account holder. It's on the rider's app under the "How to use Uber" and "Perfecting your pickup"


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Of the people coming into this thread over the course of the past day or so, most don't seem to know what the policy is. The few, other than me, who tried to set you straight have either abandoned the thread or put you on ignore.


Bottom line, you can't accept a minor, alone. You can cancel a trip with a minor though. You're the one who will find out the hard way, I feel sorry for you and others who disregard their risk or the intelligent posts here.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

UberJag said:


> You can pick up people that aren't the account holder. It's on the rider's app under the "How to use Uber" and "Perfecting your pickup"
> View attachment 30649


That's what I wasn't sure about, or figure that's how bars do it or large businesses so it's on their account.


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> Of the people coming into this thread over the course of the past day or so, most don't seem to know what the policy is. The few, other than me, who tried to set you straight have either abandoned the thread or put you on ignore.


LAndreas is that you?


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

grayspinner said:


> I have driven a good number of high school students - it doesn't bother me to do so & they are fine pax. I've got 4 teenagers myself - it can be very difficult to get everyone where they need to go & work, I know it's very helpful to be able to order a ride for your teen.
> 
> I've also picked up teens in the middle of the night who are obviously sneaking back in to the house. I'm glad they are getting home safely.


POST # 29/grayspinner: With ALL DUE
RESPECT to your
Motherly Altruism, your Guardian Angel
MUST be wearing a BELL Helmet, because
YOU are exposing yourself to Life Ruining
Litigation IF an Accident were to Occur!

Mentoring Bison: Prayers MIGHT NOT
☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ be Enough Protection!


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

Jvc21 said:


> None that are public to my knowledge.
> 
> Rules state no one under 18 without an adult. Why risk a he said she said debate if things go wrong? Doesn't take much for a minor to say "driver touched me" to get screwed over.
> 
> Dash cam advertisement


POST # 40/Jvc21: Dingdingdingdingding
dingdingdingdingding
ding!!! Give that Cutie a Kewpie Doll !

M A N D A T O R Y Shout-Out to
"Tulsa Tornado", Well-Known UPNFer,
AND Sponsor ReviTULize who wel-
comes inquires regarding DASHCAMery
and the Utilization thereof.

Mentoring Bison: Did'ja a Solid, BRO !


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> LAndreas is that you?


Show me any driver who's ever had his insurance voided because he transported a minor. I won't hold my breath.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Show me any driver who's ever had his insurance voided because he transported a minor. I won't hold my breath.


You look like a fool at this point. Many drivers have their claims denied, without a minor.


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> Show me any driver who's ever had his insurance voided because he transported a minor. I won't hold my breath.


Show me a driver who was in an accident with an unaccompanied minor who was covered by James River, I won't hold my breath.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

We must be going on 10 pages now, the first page answered the question. Apparently Coachman is going to do what he wants and should probably move on. Everyone else on here does need to know that they are definitely screwed and need to be more aware of your pax. It is your job, literally.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

5 Star Guy said:


> Not sure what your point is, lately. Are you saying it doesn't happen or that you haven't heard any chatter? Does it matter, when since it is possible, that you should avoid it? Doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it, including the fact that they don't allow it. Period.


POST # 43/5 Star Guy: Although he hates
to be UNNECESSARILY
INTERRUPTED, I am calling upon
Desert Denizen Hunt to Eat to
Swoop in with "Wile E. Coyote" Anvil
and Administer an Insurance Intelligence
SMACKDOWN on Apparent FlatEarther
Coachman for the Edification of ALL READERS.


----------



## Digits

I had a school girl waiting alone to be picked up on her mothers account,after confirming she was not accompanied by an adult,I had no choice but to cancel immediately even though the mother called not knowing about the rules or she was playing dumb by justifying that everyone does it..... Now I don't even bother to confirm anything, I simply suspect underage based on appearance... Cancel and keep driving!


----------



## Beur

5 Star Guy said:


> We must be going on 10 pages now, the first page answered the question. Apparently Coachman is going to do what he wants and should probably move on. Everyone else on here does need to know that they are definitely screwed and need to be more aware of your pax. It is your job, literally.


This post from Coachman explains it all. He's hurting for the money, any fares will be taken regardless of risk.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure the mother like other people are not aware of the rules and they might even know of other parents doing it. Either way if you told the parent there's no insurance for your kid in the car they would cancel and probably give you a tip for letting her know.


----------



## Beur

5 Star Guy said:


> We must be going on 10 pages now, the first page answered the question. Apparently Coachman is going to do what he wants and should probably move on. Everyone else on here does need to know that they are definitely screwed and need to be more aware of your pax. It is your job, literally.


I'm also willing to bet Coachman gives rides to parents with children who should be in car seats without a car seat. Now that's a big ticket here in CA.

Uber doesn't say we shouldn't take car seat age/weight children without one, but common sense and the law says otherwise.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Well that's the third big issue here, the car seat and booster seat laws. Never heard from them about needing one. I'm sure Coachman has all the answers though. You are the independent contractor, it is your job to know or don't drive.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

Beur said:


> This post from Coachman explains it all. He's hurting for the money, any fares will be taken regardless of risk.


POST #:183/Beur: Superb Detective
Work,
Deputy Sheriff Beur ! So glad to have
your Mental Acuity "Wielding the Scalpel"
for the Enthusiastic Audience.

Bison Admires. Bison Inspires!


----------



## Beur

Casuale Haberdasher said:


> POST #:183/Beur: Superb Detective
> Work,
> Deputy Sheriff Beur ! So glad to have
> your Mental Acuity "Wielding the Scalpel"
> for the Enthusiastic Audience.
> 
> Bison Admires. Bison Inspires!


No detective work needed, it was in a thread about Uber Drivers tipping other Uber Drivers.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Very sad and pathetic. I feel bad for the poor guy. All he has to do is say you know something, you guys are right but I need the money. I don't have TNC Gap coverage in my state yet and I appreciate you taking the time to let everyone know. I was hoping for that, not being attacked and ignored. Just one more driver giving us drivers a bad reputation. Drives me nuts.


----------



## UberJag

5 Star Guy said:


> Well that's the third big issue here, the car seat and booster seat laws.


For me that's an easy one! There is no way I would transport a baby/young child without a car seat because it's the law in California. You can even get arrested for child endangerment for doing that.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

That's the point though, most drivers either don't care or don't know the law since they think they are a taxi and are exempt or they don't have a child and don't think about it or realize the law. I think its nationwide tied to the DOT funding for each state.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

Coachman said:


> If it didn't take much, we'd see it happening all the time.
> 
> You can't find one case out of 160,000 Uber drivers in the US.


POST # 41/Coachman: JUST so that
Readers can determine
"How Far behind the 8 Ball" YOUR
"Awareness Curve" is.........162,000 WAS
[past tense] the Number of "Active"
#[F]UberPilots.....on 31 December 2014!

PLEASE, EVERYONE...utilize the Search
Function of These Forums...READ FIRST,
Post Afterwards. Set up in a Searchable
DataBase Format, w/ Nearly 9 0 0 , 0 0 0
Posts&Replies, from 43,000+ Members,
on 6 Continents, over the Last 696 Days,
the Fact$ that YOU NEED to $ucceed
are I N... H E R E !

Mentoring Bison: Thus endeth the Rant.


----------



## Beur

For those not familiar with a waybill, it's most commonly used in shipping, airlines call it an air waybill.

The waybill lists the items (In Uber's case passenger), being transported and typically contain "conditions of contract of carriage" terms on the back of the form. These terms cover _*limits to liability *_and other terms and conditions. On the back of your airline ticket you'll see the "conditions of carriage, you may want to read them the next time you fly!

What's the keyword in that sentence? Why it's *LIMITS TO LIABILITY*


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> This post from Coachman explains it all. He's hurting for the money, any fares will be taken regardless of risk.


Show me any Uber driver who's ever been penalized for transporting a minor.


----------



## Coachman

Casuale Haberdasher said:


> POST # 41/Coachman: JUST so that
> Readers can determine
> "How Far behind the 8 Ball" YOUR
> "Awareness Curve" is.........162,000 WAS
> [past tense] the Number of "Active"
> #[F]UberPilots.....on 31 December 2014!
> 
> PLEASE, EVERYONE...utilize the Search
> Function of These Forums...READ FIRST,
> Post Afterwards. Set up in a Searchable
> DataBase Format, w/ Nearly 9 0 0 , 0 0 0
> Posts&Replies, from 43,000+ Members,
> on 6 Continents, over the Last 696 Days,
> the Fact$ that YOU NEED to $ucceed
> are I N... H E R E !
> 
> Mentoring Bison: Thus endeth the Rant.


Show me any Uber driver who's had his insurance voided for transporting a minor.


----------



## Coachman

You know on a message board when people go from attacking your argument to attacking you that you've won the debate.


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> Show me any Uber driver who's ever been penalized for transporting a minor.


You're getting desperate, the topic of the thread is about insurance coverage in regards to what the Uber TOS states in section 3.

Keep filing your nails, you'll need those sharp should you wind up in jail for killing someone after you've blatantly ignored the TOS Uber has clearly laid out.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

5 Star Guy said:


> You can sell heroin to pax too. The point is you are definitely not going to be covered if you get in an accident, they don't want to pay anything and will find that an easy way out. I hope you rent.


POST # 70/5 Star Guy: As the Fictional,
but Funny,
Sheldon Cooper, Ph.D. might quip:

"B......A......Z......I......N......G......A....!....!....!


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> Show me any Uber driver who's had his insurance voided for transporting a minor.


The topic of the thread isn't about transporting a minor, it's a thread about whether you are covered by James River for transporting an unaccompanied minor when you've been in an accident.

Your attempting to change the topic of the discussion is a weak man's way of admitting you're wrong.

Instead of clouding the topic with a broad statement, support your initial argument that James River and Uber will cover you in the event you're in an accident while transporting an unaccompanied minor which is in violation of Uber TOS as laid out in section 3.

There are many posts here about drivers not being covered by James River after being in an accident, unfortunately those who have posted about their experience have never given full details of the ride.


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> The topic of the thread isn't about transporting a minor, it's a thread about whether you are covered by James River for transporting an unaccompanied minor when you've been in an accident.


Show me any Uber driver who's been in an accident while transporting an unaccompanied minor and had his James River insurance on the waybill voided.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

I recall one driver did the other day. Something like his own insurance expired and he was out 15K. No, he did not have a minor alone. I think they paid for the other car, not his which is what they do.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Show me any Uber driver who's been in an accident while transporting an unaccompanied minor and had his James River insurance on the waybill voided.


Do you really think they want to advertise that? Are you as smart as a doorknob?


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> Show me any Uber driver who's been in an accident while transporting an unaccompanied minor and had his James River insurance on the waybill voided.


Again I want you to show me any Uber driver that's been in an accident while transporting an unaccompanied and hasn't had his James River insurance on the waybill voided.

As you like to say, I won't hold my breath.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

Beur said:


> Do you want me to shake it for you after you finish peeing too? There's a site partners.uber.com that I'm sure you have access too, if not use Google.
> 
> Who did *YOUR* homework when *YOU* were in school?


POST # 72/Beur: As many UPNFers do
remember my
Retelling of Monty Python Sketches
WHEN APPROPRIATE...I feel compelled
to Quote a Neighbor of Dinsdale Piranha
upon being asked by The Inevitable TV Re-
porter....

"Why is it that Piranha the Younger 
[Doug, his Twin, was born 3 weeks earlier
than Dinsdale] keeps nailing Your Head to 
The Parlour Floor ?" Pausing slightly...

"Ol' Dinsey ? He's CRUEL! Cruel.....but Fair."

Bison Chortling !


----------



## Coachman

Beur , When a rider gets in your car, how do you verify that he/she is the authorized account holder or otherwise authorized to ride?


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> Beur , When a rider gets in your car, how do you verify that he/she is the authorized account holder or otherwise authorized to ride?


How do I do it? Well it's very easy, what's your name? I'm sorry George, I'm here to pickup Steve, your Uber should be along shortly.


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> Again I want you to show me any Uber driver that's been in an accident while transporting an unaccompanied and hasn't had his James River insurance on the waybill voided.
> 
> As you like to say, I won't hold my breath.


Well if that's your argument now, then you've just admitted you can't prove your own argument. I doubt you'll realize that even after reading this exchange several times.


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> How do I do it? Well it's very easy, what's your name? I'm sorry George, I'm here to pickup Steve, your Uber should be along shortly.


So when he says his name is Steve and hops in your car, you take that as proof that he's the authorized account holder?


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> So when he says his name is Steve and hops in your car, you take that as proof that he's the authorized account holder?


Well yes I do, since uber doesn't give us the passengers last name, I've done my due diligence as a driver to confirm the names match. If I were to be in an accident I would screen shot the waybill and lay the onus back on Uber. It's what well thought out people do.

Now I did have an instance where Bob, wasn't the Bob I was picking up. Figured this out as I was pulling out of the hotel and his destination was in the complete opposite direction, immediately returned to the hotel to collect the correct Bob who had also gotten into the wrong car.

See as a driver there are many ways to confirm you have the correct passenger, this comes with experience.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Brains too. Make it stop. lol So funny!


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> Well if that's your argument now, then you've just admitted you can't prove your own argument. I doubt you'll realize that even after reading this exchange several times.


I realize it way early in the thread, pointed out to you again when I stated many drivers have posted here about not being covered by James River after an accident and stating unfortunately they only posted about not being covered not about the details.

I believe Casuale Haberdasher and 5 Star Guy have previously pointed the same out to you as well. You chose in your continued display of disregard for Uber TOS to ignore them.

The only one here demanding proof and going to the broader topic of transporting unaccompanied minors is you.


----------



## Beur

Look Coachman I get you need the money & "don't have the luxury of canceling rides as other drivers do," it's ok people in desperate situations do what they have to do in order to survive.

I don't judge people who do whatever it takes to survive. I have a friend who was once a prostitute to keep her children fed and a roof over their head, luckily she was able to turn her situation around and had a long distguished career in law enforcement, luckily she was never arrested during her prostituion career.

Whether you're driving unaccompanied minors or prostituting yourself, I commend you for your drive to survive whatever ill fortunes life has thrown you way. Just know the longer you engage in risky behavior the greater the chances become of risk costing you something.

We all have to be willing to live with the consequences of our actions. I know I am, are you?


----------



## Ziggy

My3kidsmum said:


> Could someone please explain the policy regarding picking up minor/juveniles that are not accompanied by a guardian ? Thanks in advance for your advice.


You cannot under any circumstances p/u a UM (unaccompanied minor). For the following reasons (1) it's against Uber TOS; (2) the Uber insurance doesn't cover it; and (3) you don't want to be the last person who saw the minor before they went missing. *only #1 & #2 are needed; but #3 is CYA

I had several irate parents yelling at me when I wouldn't give their UM a ride ... 
I created the following links to send to parents:
> http://bitly.com/uber18
>


----------



## Beur

Ziggy said:


> You cannot under any circumstances p/u a UM (unaccompanied minor). For the following reasons (1) it's against Uber TOS; (2) the Uber insurance doesn't cover it; and (3) you don't want to be the last person who saw the minor before they went missing. *only #1 & #2 are needed; but #3 is CYA
> 
> I had several irate parents yelling at me when I wouldn't give their UM a ride ...
> I created the following links to send to parents:
> > http://bitly.com/uber18
> >


Thanks for the quick link Ziggy, I'll be adding that to my bag of tricks


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

5 Star Guy said:


> I'd like to keep this thread on topic, however the second big issue is the lack of insurance. Here is a new article, for CA.
> http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2016/03/03/400781.htm


POST # 133/5 Star Guy: Bostonian Bison
Thanks You for this Hyperlinked Article
from Insurance Journal.com, of Interest
to ALL Golden State A-B TNC Drivers.

☆ ☆ W.....A.....R.....N.....I.....N.....G ☆ ☆

"Dollars to Donuts"...there MUST BE AN
ERROR in the"Estimated $15-$20 Annually"
Misstatement, because THAT is WAY LE$$
than Other Companies charge PER
MONTH for Add-On TNC Policy Riders.

Mentoring Bison: Jus' Trillin' nyeah.


----------



## thehappytypist

I haven't read the entire thread because tl;dr but here's the thing about minors. Uber doesn't consider it YOUR problem. The onus is completely on the rider to follow the TOS. If there's fraudulent use of the app, such as a stolen credit card being used or unauthorized use of the account, Uber doesn't take away your fares because it isn't your responsibility to sniff out fraud. (I mean real fraud, not claims of wrong rider) Nor is it your responsibility to police the age of riders. Drivers aren't enforcers of the rider TOS. So, as the emails say, it comes down to whether or not you feel comfortable driving a minor and you're well within your rights to cancel or you can choose to take the trip anyway. They do investigate claims of unaccompanied minors and bans happen because of it.

(I can't speak about the insurance issues, regular CSRs were never well informed in that area.)


----------



## Beur

thehappytypist said:


> I haven't read the entire thread because tl;dr but here's the thing about minors. Uber doesn't consider it YOUR problem. The onus is completely on the rider to follow the TOS. If there's fraudulent use of the app, such as a stolen credit card being used or unauthorized use of the account, Uber doesn't take away your fares because it isn't your responsibility to sniff out fraud. (I mean real fraud, not claims of wrong rider) Nor is it your responsibility to police the age of riders. Drivers aren't enforcers of the rider TOS. So, as the emails say, it comes down to whether or not you feel comfortable driving a minor and you're well within your rights to cancel or you can choose to take the trip anyway. They do investigate claims of unaccompanied minors and bans happen because of it.
> 
> (I can't speak about the insurance issues, regular CSRs were never well informed in that area.)


Thanks for the clarification thehappytypist -

For those that missed it the *most important *part of their reply is:

"*I can't speak about the insurance issues, regular CSRs were never well informed in that area.*"


----------



## Coachman

thehappytypist said:


> I haven't read the entire thread because tl;dr but here's the thing about minors. Uber doesn't consider it YOUR problem. The onus is completely on the rider to follow the TOS. If there's fraudulent use of the app, such as a stolen credit card being used or unauthorized use of the account, Uber doesn't take away your fares because it isn't your responsibility to sniff out fraud. (I mean real fraud, not claims of wrong rider) Nor is it your responsibility to police the age of riders. Drivers aren't enforcers of the rider TOS. So, as the emails say, it comes down to whether or not you feel comfortable driving a minor and you're well within your rights to cancel or you can choose to take the trip anyway. They do investigate claims of unaccompanied minors and bans happen because of it.
> 
> (I can't speak about the insurance issues, regular CSRs were never well informed in that area.)


You can't reason with these people. They've adopted the party line on this board, and they'll stick with it to the end.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

Thatendedbadly said:


> No, it's *your* issue. James River is an insurance company, insurance companies make their money by *collecting premiums* and *not paying claims*. Let's say an accident happens with Uber driver Z, the first question James River asks is *'who else was in the vehicle'?* Account holder isn't in the vehicle, *James River doesn't pay*. Your insurance company doesn't pay, you didn't spend the $300/month for a commercial endorsement, you're a part time driver, the Uber thing is sketchy enough, how could you make it work having to pay $300 a month for commercial insurance? Your car is wrecked, your personal insurance won't pay to have it fixed, your policy is cancelled for obvious reasons and as an added bonus you have the *personal civil liability *exposure. The only upside, if you're like most drivers you don't have enough tangible assets to make it worthwhile for a lawyer to go after you but I wouldn't count on that either, lose a judgement in a civil action and the court officer will collect all of your personal property if you can't come up with the cash. I have an acquaintance that's a court officer-I've served people for him-he makes his living taking people's stuff, quite legally, he always has an interesting tale to tell.


POST # 142/Thatendedbadly: Based upon
an Assurance from
uberpeople.net a Well-Written BLOG
ENTRY on that Very Costly POTENTIAL
Exposure WOULD be looked upon
favorably.

[I'm envisioning Coachman sticking
his Tongue out and giving Bostonian
Bison a "Bronx Cheer"....also known as
"A Raspberry". Google knows.]


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> You can't reason with these people. They've adopted the party line on this board, and they'll stick with it to the end.


You might want to read what they said again regarding the insurance which is the main topic of this discussion. Stop returning to the broader topic of unaccompanied minors.

They also state "*They do investigate claims of unaccompanied minors and bans happen because of it.*" Now why would Uber ban riders if unaccompanied minors were ok in their book?

See you have to read the whole response in order to "hear" what's being said.

Your statement of "You can't reason with these people (you), is the first factual thing you've said.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

UberJag said:


> When I went to the Uber station to have my car inspected when I first started I asked the guy there about insurance...specifically if I should notify my insurance company (I asked him that as I was handing him my insurance documentation). He told me I am covered under Uber and that I do not need to let my insurance company know. I'm not doubting you, I just don't know what to believe. Are you an insurance salesman?


Uber and their reps also tell us/have said:

"We care about our partners."
"We've got your back." 
"Lower rates mean higher earnings for partners."
"Tips are included."

Uber lies and their employees or contracted CSRs don't know what's going on either. So it's useless to quote them.


----------



## kraftlos

Beur said:


> It's very simple go look at one of your waybills it names the specific passenger who requested the ride. If you're giving a ride and the named passenger is not in the car you're not covered.


Thanks, that's a very clear explanation.


----------



## Casuale Haberdasher

5 Star Guy said:


> Very sad and pathetic. I feel bad for the poor guy. All he has to do is say you know something, you guys are right but I need the money. I don't have TNC Gap coverage in my state yet and I appreciate you taking the time to let everyone know. I was hoping for that, not being attacked and ignored. Just one more driver giving us drivers a bad reputation. Drives me nuts.


POST # 189/5 Star Guy: What IS "Sad and
Pathetic"
is that * AHEM * HARUMPH * COUGH
T E X A S - B A S E D U.S.A.A. Insurance
DOES OFFER "TNC-Gap" Coverage in a
number of States.

I'll wait for Our Self-Misguided DFW Member to report being acosted by 
his Local USAA Rep to see if.....

"Light ....D A W N S ....on MARBLE HEAD."

Bison: Uh-oh. He "resembles" that Remark.


----------



## tohunt4me

My3kidsmum said:


> Could someone please explain the policy regarding picking up minor/juveniles that are not accompanied by a guardian ?
> 
> I have had several request recently from high school students that have an account under their name.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your advice.


Some kids take Uber to school.
Especially when they are spending time with the visitation parent that lives in a different school zone.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

5 Star Guy said:


> I have no doubt you took those pax. So the waybill states the number of pax and the adult whose account it was, was a pax or tell me you just broke all of the rules and risked having to pay those parents for the rest of your life. So sad, really.


I had a long exchange with CS about the waybill ALWAYS saying 1 person. I wanted to know why it said anything since it always said the same thing no matter what.

Never got a real answer of course. Uber is the most disorganized bunch of crap imaginable.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

5 Star Guy said:


> I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. ... if you told the parent there's no insurance for your kid in the car they would cancel and probably give you a tip for letting her know.


That's the funniest thing I've read here for a long time!


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

tohunt4me said:


> Some kids take Uber to school.
> Especially when they are spending time with the visitation parent that lives in a different school zone.


And some kids play hooky. What's your point?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Uber and their reps also tell us/have said:
> 
> "We care about our partners."
> "We've got your back."
> "Lower rates mean higher earnings for partners."
> "Tips are included."
> 
> Uber lies and their employees or contracted CSRs don't know what's going on either. So it's useless to quote them.


Not only is it useless to quote them, which Coachman will never get, is that it would never hold up in court when you're being sued. They will go by the rules first, second and third.


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> Now why would Uber ban riders if unaccompanied minors were ok in their book?


a. Because the minor created the account without the parent's knowledge.
b. Because the minor is 13 years old.
c. Because the minor behaved badly.

There are probably 10,000 or more unaccompanied minor rides every day on Uber. You think Uber has any interest in killing that business off?


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> Your statement of "You can't reason with these people (you), is the first factual thing you've said.


You already maneuvered yourself into the position of stalemate several posts back. And I rightly predicted that you wouldn't recognize it.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> a. Because the minor created the account without the parent's knowledge.
> b. Because the minor is 13 years old.
> c. Because the minor behaved badly.
> 
> There are probably 10,000 or more unaccompanied minor rides every day on Uber. You think Uber has any interest in killing that business off?


Everyone but you realize the risk. They are tossing parents or anyone else who violate the TOS. Their lawyers and insurance enforce that. There are new pax everyday, same with drivers. You will be replaced as soon as you get in that accident with that minor. By the way speaking of lawyers and insurance companies, any idea who is going to defend you? No one.


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> You already maneuvered yourself into the position of stalemate several posts back. And I rightly predicted that you wouldn't recognize it.


Wow you truly do lack reading comprehension skills. You might want to save face by going back and sloooooowly reading what I said in my response.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Everyone but you realize the risk. They are tossing parents or anyone else who violate the TOS. Their lawyers and insurance enforce that. There are new pax everyday, same with drivers. You will be replaced as soon as you get in that accident with that minor. By the way speaking of lawyers and insurance companies, any idea who is going to defend you? No one.


Are you actually driving for Uber? I can't imagine how or why if you believe what you're telling me.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

This poor guy gives us a bad reputation. Please stop driving before you lose everything. Go ahead and try to convince them that it's their fault. Not only will you never hear from them, they'll be laughing harder than all of us on here put together. You'll hear crickets in your courtroom.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Everyone but you realize the risk.


No. A number of people have popped in and out of the thread and expressed the same position that I have. But they leave very quickly once the tag team assault starts.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

No one is assaulting anyone, its only you who doesn't get it. You get it but you'd rather drive for $1 and risk losing everything over it. Not sure why. Get a job.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> No one is assaulting anyone, its only you who doesn't get it. You get it but you'd rather drive for $1 and risk losing everything over it. Not sure why. Get a job.


I'll ask you again. When you pick up "paul" and "paul" gets in the car and confirms that his name is "paul," how do you know that "paul" is really "paul" and that "paul" is abiding by the TOS?

When you pick up "savannah" at the mall and she confirms her name is "savannah" how do you know that she's the authorized account holder and how do you know her age?


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> I'll ask you again. When you pick up "paul" and "paul" gets in the car and confirms that his name is "paul," how do you know that "paul" is really "paul" and that "paul" is abiding by the TOS?
> 
> When you pick up "savannah" at the mall and she confirms her name is "savannah" how do you know that she's the authorized account holder and how do you know her age?


Let me get this one 5 Star Guy - Coachman as they say in a court of law:

Asked and answered in this reply to the same question you asked earlier.

https://uberpeople.net/threads/picking-up-juvenile-riders.64324/page-11#post-884393


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> Let me get this one 5 Star Guy - Coachman as they say in a court of law:
> 
> Asked and answered in this reply to the same question you asked earlier.
> 
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/picking-up-juvenile-riders.64324/page-11#post-884393


That's great. Because now your argument is that it's not a question of whether you're transporting a minor, but only whether you've done your _due diligence_ when picking him up.

As long as he looks 18 or over, you're covered.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Very sad, going on 13 pages. Take the pain.


----------



## Jvc21

Again, to each their own. Make money the way you see fit.

For me, it's not worth the risk, especially with our main problems with rates, tips, and support.

Best of luck.


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> That's great. Because now your argument is that it's not a question of whether you're transporting a minor, but only whether you've done your _due diligence_ when picking him up.
> 
> As long as he looks 18 or over, you're covered.


Ok now you're just punking us. When you asked me and just recently 5 Star Guy your question wasn't relating to the unaccompanied minor topic, you were about about confirming the pick up pax name with that which is provided to the driver.

You clearly have demonstrated a severe lack of

Being able to clearly articulate your question
A lack of reading comprehension skills
A great ability to take what you've read and spin it to suit your argument
Unfortunately for you number 3 isn't quite working out for you here. You really should be out driving instead of playing obtuse on the forums, after all, by you're own admission you need the money.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

By all means to each their own, that's why this is a part time business and drivers are an independent contractor. The problem is most drivers don't know the risks, they are mislead and misinformed. Add the situation with a minor, the TOS, child seats and now the TNC Gap insurance that they don't address. Its a big problem and the driver will be the one responsible. They are not sending their lawyers to represent you, they'll be laughing at you first.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Very sad, going on 13 pages. Take the pain.


Do you agree with your buddy Beur , that as long as you do your due diligence you're covered by Uber's insurance when you transport a minor?


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> Do you agree with your buddy Beur , that as long as you do your due diligence your covered when you transport a minor?


Again you're not reading the reply or you severely lack reading comprehension skills. If you had read the thread you would have seen that I'm the one who answered your repeated question.

Your twice repeated question had nothing to do with the transport of a minor. I believe both 5 Star Guy and I have made it perfectly clear we don't knowingly transport minors. Me personally if you appear under the age of 18 or you request a pickup from a school, you're not getting in my car.

If a driver asks someone they suspect may be a minor their age and they lie, the driver has done his due diligence and provided the ride in good faith. The onus and liability then falls on the minor's parents. It's kind of like the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion, Google that, though I doubt you'll understand the difference.


----------



## thehappytypist

Beur said:


> Thanks for the clarification thehappytypist -
> 
> For those that missed it the *most important *part of their reply is:
> 
> "*I can't speak about the insurance issues, regular CSRs were never well informed in that area.*"


I truly do wish I'd gotten more training in that area but advanced insurance questions/issues were handled by a special in-house team.


----------



## Beur

thehappytypist said:


> I truly do wish I'd gotten more training in that area but advanced insurance questions/issues were handled by a special in-house team.


For the sake of the sanity of everyone in this thread I wish you had too. Many of the new drivers don't understand there are multiple layers to the Uber support system.

Like last weekend I had to cancel a ride for alcohol and no car seats, the ride magically disappeared from my history. When the issue was escalated it was funny how the next person in the food chain was able to locate the ride based off my phone call to the pax at 00:03. The front line CSR's kept telling me it wasn't possible.


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> Again you're not reading the reply or you severely lack reading comprehension skills. If you had read the thread you would have seen that I'm the one who answered your repeated question.


She's the one who directed me back to it. So it was an easy mistake to make. You two are peas in a pod.



Beur said:


> Your twice repeated question had nothing to do with the transport of a minor. I believe both 5 Star Guy and I have made it perfectly clear we don't knowingly transport minors. Me personally if you appear under the age of 18 or you request a pickup from a school, you're not getting in my car.
> 
> If a driver asks someone they suspect may be a minor their age and they lie, the driver has done his due diligence and provided the ride in good faith. The onus and liability then falls on the minor's parents. It's kind of like the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion, Google that, though I doubt you'll understand the difference.


In other words, your position now is that when transporting a minor, _you may or may not be covered_ by Uber's insurance, depending on what you tell them. If you say, "Sure, I asked him if he was 18 and he said yes," then you're gold!

To summarize, if Uber finds out the minor lied to you, you're covered. Or if Uber finds out the minor really looks 18 or over, you're covered. If it was too dark to see the passenger, you're covered. If the minor is wearing a Burka, you're covered.

You guys are unbelievable.


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> She's the one who directed me back to it. So it was an easy mistake to make. You two are peas in a pod.
> 
> In other words, your position now is that when transporting a minor, _you may or may not be covered_ by Uber's insurance, depending on what you tell them. If you say, "Sure, I asked him if he was 18 and he said yes," then you're gold!
> 
> To summarize, if Uber finds out the minor lied to you, you're covered. Or if Uber finds out the minor really looks 18 or over, you're covered. If it was too dark to see the passenger, you're covered. If the minor is wearing a Burka, you're covered.
> 
> You guys are unbelievable.


No you're unbelievable, that's not what I said. What I said was the onus and liability then falls to the parents.

Geez you surely can't be this dense.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

My average pax age is 30. My minimum age is 21. I'm not taking any chances now that I know that this like several other things are not explained by them well, upfront. If you're close to 18 I'm not picking you up. Not on my watch. All they need to do is ignore you. [Drivers here can't get a response from them on activation, guarantees, all sorts of basic issues. You think they're going to bother with your claim that they want to deny is nuts.]


----------



## murdoch

After reading this thread, it sounds like you're saying everyone should be asking every pax for ID if they really want to protect themselves. How else can you confirm a high schooler is 17 or 18? Or confirm Paul is actually Paul. If the pax lie and says he's 18 or says he's Paul the account holder, are you recording the convo for proof? If they lied about their age or name to you when they got in the car, they can lie again to Uber or the insurance or judge or whomever and say they told you they were underage or they weren't the account holder. Which would put you right back at the initial problem unless you had proof otherwise. Sounds like due diligence would be actually confirming the pax via ID or face a he-said she-said in court.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Its very clear that they are intentionally [not]. The rest is on you and I do mean on you. Don't expect them sending a lawyer and don't expect your insurance to represent you. They will be calling each other laughing at you. Can you believe this guy, we already deactivated him, what guy?


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Coachman said:


> I'll ask you again. When you pick up "paul" and "paul" gets in the car and confirms that his name is "paul," how do you know that "paul" is really "paul" and that "paul" is abiding by the TOS?
> 
> When you pick up "savannah" at the mall and she confirms her name is "savannah" how do you know that she's the authorized account holder and how do you know her age?


You should NEVER have the pax "confirm" their name. You should ask them what their name is. If it's a common name I also ask them my name. You also have to realize if you have the phone stuck up in plain sight they can see their name.

The TOS does allow for them to have up to 3 passengers (5 for XL) as well as the app holder. It does allow them to call and Uber for someone else. However it also instructs them to call the driver and let him know. I have had very few people do that. However if they know my name and they give the right app name then except for them being the wrong sex for their name I can only presume they are the app holder. If I have any worries I will call the Uber pax number. Either it will be their phone or the app holder will answer and give permission for the ride. If not, I don't take them.

If they get in and want to change the destination or give a different one from what I have then I ask THEM to change it before we move.

FYI I have only once picked up the wrong pax and it was because there were two kia souls both picking up on a street where you can't stop for more than a few seconds. They were looking for one and jumped in mine. MY pax was jumping in the other one half a block away. I realise as I pulled away from the curb and they gave the wrong name. I asked the destination and it was wrong too. I had them call THEIR driver and we swapped pax a block away. Normally I don't unlock the doors or drive without checking but it was downtown 2am in drunk zone. However, I did catch it ASAP.

I don't rely on the pax. I'm a white blonde female and I have had pax try to get in my car and after getting upset that I kept telling them I was NOT their driver, say "Well I was wondering why you had a picture of a black guy in your profile."

Er, because I'M NOT YOUR DRIVER AND IT'S NOT ME?

Drunks. What can you do?

If they look under 18 then I have no problem asking for ID.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

murdoch said:


> After reading this thread, it sounds like you're saying everyone should be asking every pax for ID if they really want to protect themselves. How else can you confirm a high schooler is 17 or 18? Or confirm Paul is actually Paul. If the pax lie and says he's 18 or says he's Paul the account holder, are you recording the convo for proof? If they lied about their age or name to you when they got in the car, they can lie again to Uber or the insurance or judge or whomever and say they told you they were underage or they weren't the account holder. Which would put you right back at the initial problem unless you had proof otherwise. Sounds like due diligence would be actually confirming the pax via ID or face a he-said she-said in court.


Dash cam.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> Do you agree with your buddy Beur , that as long as you do your due diligence you're covered by Uber's insurance when you transport a minor?


Uber's insurance does not cover non account holders. The end.


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> No you're unbelievable, that's not what I said. What I said was the onus and liability then falls to the parents.
> 
> Geez you surely can't be this dense.


What you said is that you may be covered or you may not be covered. You seem to be under the impression that if you get in an accident and the pax turns out to be 17, then Uber is going to do an investigation to determine whether you used due diligence.

Of course, all of this is just your imagining.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> Uber's insurance does not cover non account holders. The end.


Most of the young riders I pick up are the account holder.

Uber also permits account holders to let others ride under their account.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Its very clear that they are intentionally [not]. The rest is on you and I do mean on you. Don't expect them sending a lawyer and don't expect your insurance to represent you. They will be calling each other laughing at you. Can you believe this guy, we already deactivated him, what guy?


I think most drivers who get in an accident while transporting a passenger are deactivated anyway, regardless of the passenger's status.


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> What you said is that you may be covered or you may not be covered. You seem to be under the impression that if you get in an accident and the pax turns out to be 17, then Uber is going to do an investigation to determine whether you used due diligence.
> 
> Of course, all of this is just your imagining.


No, it's all recorded on the dash cam. No go back to your imaginary insurance coverage


----------



## Beur

murdoch said:


> After reading this thread, it sounds like you're saying everyone should be asking every pax for ID if they really want to protect themselves. How else can you confirm a high schooler is 17 or 18? Or confirm Paul is actually Paul. If the pax lie and says he's 18 or says he's Paul the account holder, are you recording the convo for proof? If they lied about their age or name to you when they got in the car, they can lie again to Uber or the insurance or judge or whomever and say they told you they were underage or they weren't the account holder. Which would put you right back at the initial problem unless you had proof otherwise. Sounds like due diligence would be actually confirming the pax via ID or face a he-said she-said in court.


No he said she said, the dash cam recording will be proof enough. I suggest you invest in one.


----------



## Drago619

COACHMAN WINS..5 star and beur just keep bringing up the RIDER TOS but have not once in the whole thread quoted the PARTNER TOS and if it actually states you will be denied insurance if a rider is under age. Like every single uber official has said. You can give a ride to a minor..stop trying to push your bs tnc insurance. All uber states is that you can cancel a ride if your not comfortable, Thats with anyone not just minors...like the uber official said. Its not your job to inforce the rider tos..like coachman has been saying since the begining..provide proof of your statements or at least one example and he will forfiet his win. Otherwise stop pretending.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Drago619 said:


> COACHMAN WINS..5 star and beur just keep bringing up the RIDER TOS but have not once in the whole thread quoted the PARTNER TOS and if it actually states you will be denied insurance if a rider is under age. Like every single uber official has said. You can give a ride to a minor..stop trying to push your bs tnc insurance. All uber states is that you can cancel a ride if your not comfortable, Thats with anyone not just minors...like the uber official said. Its not your job to inforce the rider tos..like coachman has been saying since the begining..provide proof of your statements or at least one example and he will forfiet his win. Otherwise stop pretending.


Actually, they remain the winner for continuing to mislead you, like you're covered when you are not.

All official emails stated to let them know if a pax is underage. So now you can explain to us if you must be 18 to have an account and to let them know if a pax is a minor where you make any sense?

The TNC Gap insurance is huge, you are not covered by anyone in full, no matter who your pax is. You better Google TNC Gap insurance since you don't know that either.

No, they say if the pax is with a minor you can cancel if you don't feel comfortable, like with an infant and not an adult.

No one is pretending, all the facts are there and you are simply not aware of them, like most drivers.

You're another clueless driver who believes them without doing any homework. Go check before you drive.


----------



## KMANDERSON

uberdriverfornow said:


> My email to Uber support : "What is the correct policy regarding kids that use their parents app to request a ride ? Do all passengers have to be 18 or old ? Please be as detailed as possible ?"
> 
> Their response two days later : "
> *XXXX *Uber)
> 
> Feb
> 
> Hi
> Thank you for writing in. I'm happy to help.
> 
> Regarding your concern, I'd like to inform you that we do allow our riders to request for another rider. However, as our independent partner, questions such as this are left to your discretion. You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger and if you feel uncomfortable with having an underage rider, you may politely cancel the trip. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know.
> 
> Please let me know if you have more questions.
> 
> Warm regards,
> 
> *xxxxx*
> help.uber.com"


Another paste and cut response


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> Most of the young riders I pick up are the account holder.
> 
> Uber also permits account holders to let others ride under their account.


Account holders would be insured, non account holders would not be. There's no getting around that.


----------



## KevRyde

Drago619 said:


> COACHMAN WINS..5 star and beur just keep bringing up the RIDER TOS but have not once in the whole thread quoted the PARTNER TOS and if it actually states you will be denied insurance if a rider is under age.


I totally agree here. Both 5 Star Guy and Beur have repeatedly proclaimed throughout this thread - as if they're somehow the arbiters of what Uber will or won't cover - that "you're not covered" in the event you're at fault if you have an accident while you're driving an unaccompanied minor (or for that matter when you're at fault if you have an accident where the account holder isn't along for the ride period).

I'm very familiar with the Uber (user/account holder) TOS and in fact keep a laminated copy of the USER REQUIREMENTS AND CONDUCT section (with yellow highlights even!) in my car, but - as Coachman and others have repeatedly pointed out - the fact remains that there is zero language in the driver/partner agreement that comes close to mentioning anything about transporting unaccompanied minors OR for that matter that as a driver I even have to read - let alone understand or enforce - the user/rider TOS.


thehappytypist said:


> here's the thing about minors. Uber doesn't consider it YOUR problem. The onus is completely on the rider to follow the TOS. If there's fraudulent use of the app, such as a stolen credit card being used or unauthorized use of the account, Uber doesn't take away your fares because it isn't your responsibility to sniff out fraud. (I mean real fraud, not claims of wrong rider) Nor is it your responsibility to police the age of riders. Drivers aren't enforcers of the rider TOS. So, as the emails say, it comes down to whether or not you feel comfortable driving a minor and you're well within your rights to cancel or you can choose to take the trip anyway. They do investigate claims of unaccompanied minors and bans happen because of it.


After 4,000+ rides, I've had maybe four or five instances when during the conversation with my riders I became aware that they were under 18, and on two occasions I declined rides when I pulled up to find group of obvious kids (11 to 14ish) because - as the thehappytypist puts it - I was simply uncomfortable. In those situations, I based my decision more along the lines of avoiding a highly unlikely although possible "point to all the naughty places on the puppet where the evil Uber driver touched you" situation rather than any concerns I might have had over insurance coverage.


----------



## Drago619

Hey 3 star tnc guy..coachman is still champ. You continue to spew your own statements. While we have already heard facts from csr and uber officials stating you can pick up minors and people that had the ride requested for them. You have failed to provide real statements otherwise. But go ahead and resort to attack mode, its easy to do. In the end you are breaking your said rule every day you drive becuase i can garuntee you dont check IDs and have given a ride to someone that did not officially request it. Now go find in the PARTNER agreement the statements to back yourself up and prove coachman wrong. Please do so before replying because every single time you try to quote the csr you change up what they officially said.


----------



## Uberweekenddude

I picked up this 10 year old kid and he was going home from friends house about 4 minute drive. He was polite and he lived in a 3 million dollar home. Lazy parents wouldn't pick it kid. What's next I will be picking up drug dealers shit and dropping it off. UBER IS CLUELESS


----------



## MattyMikey

I agree that Coachman wins and 5 Star Guy does not in regards to insurance. 

I work as an analyst for one of the biggest insurance carriers in the US.

If a rider violates the TOS it would not be grounds to deny the claim if there is an accident. They could cancel their account but not deny the liability claim.

If you people really think that putting rules in a contract or TOS would be enough to deny a claim ever wonder why DUI claims are not denied?

Because they can't. They can be dropped but can't deny the claim. And DUI is illegal so they're violating their policy.

Guarantee you if there was an accident with a minor and James River denied the claim or even attempted it would be all over the media. You would have heard of an example but there is none. Because they will pay the claims. 

And if it is not in the partner TOS a partner is not responsible for following the passenger TOS. They are separate. Their is no legal expectations that a driver be aware of the contract passengers have with Uber. 

And here is something even more important: True fact, jury's HATE insurance carriers. No insurance carrier ever wants to take a case to court because the jury's always favor the claimant over the big insurance company. 

Now I will say they can't refuse the claim I'm confident of that. 

However after reading the TOS of the passengers it is clear they say riders need to be 18 and the account holder. Since they don't address this is the partner contract it is very clear they want the minors still getting service but want to mitigate their liability for publicity purposes if something were to happen like molestation claim. They can then tell media that it should never have happened if riders followed the policy. However if they really cared and wanted them not to be taken they would put in partner agreement. 

Is there anywhere in partner agreement that says a driver partner has to be familiar with and follow the passenger TOS? I bet not. 

So I think 5 Star Guy you are giving your opinion especially in regards to insurance and you are completely wrong. So I can see why you personally may not want to risk it but for you to share your inaccurate opinion as factual is hilarious.


----------



## Ziggy

Beur said:


> "*I can't speak about the insurance issues, regular CSRs were never well informed in that area.*"


This might clarify things ...
> http://qpn.me/u/ins


----------



## MattyMikey

Ziggy said:


> This might clarify things ...
> > http://qpn.me/u/ins


Completely wrong. Offshore CSR for Uber making claims they can't make. First off, Uber is not the insurance carrier! James River is and they don't say that do they? And even IF they did, it wouldn't hold any legal basis. You can't deny the liability because a rider violates the TOS.

Anyone that believes what an Uber CSR says is naive. They can't even be consistent with their messages. So your link proves nothing!


----------



## Beur

Ziggy said:


> This might clarify things ...
> > http://qpn.me/u/ins


Thanks Ziggy

Hey Coachman here it is in black and white from an Uber CSR

cc: MattyMikey Drago619 KevRyde


----------



## Drago619

Here we go again..still waiting on the proof from the partner agreement that states as you both state..accidents with minors or people using the service that did not make the request will be denied a insurance claim...untill you can post that..please stop..the insurance guy already put this to bed...by the way.. you should both stop driving uber if you havent already by your claims becuase neither of you are checking IDs and by doing so your risking everything.


----------



## MattyMikey

Drago619 said:


> Here we go again..still waiting on the proof from the partner agreement that states as you both state..accidents with minors or people using the service that did not make the request will be denied a insurance claim...untill you can post that..please stop..the insurance guy already put this to bed...by the way.. you should both stop driving uber if you havent already by your claims becuase neither of you are checking IDs and by doing so your risking everything.


Agreed. They think CSR message from Uber is law. It isn't. They tell everyone something different anyways. Not just regarding this but everything. We all know that Uber support does not know crap.


----------



## MattyMikey

And another note. Even IF the Uber Partner agreement did state the same thing the Rider TOS does about minors, they still could NOT deny the claim. They could deactivate the driver for not following policy but not deny the claim. 

Uber's contract has nothing to do with the Commercial Policy by James River Insurance Company. They are the insurer. And all insurance companies are regulated by each states insurance commissioner. They have to approve all filings. There is no such language they have (or would) approve to allow a claim to be denied for violation of a company's TOS.

Just like Walmart can't post a sign saying by shopping here you agree to not fall. And if you do, you're not insured. Otherwise if that is how insurance was able to work all companies would load crap like that in postings and contracts to remove all their liabilities. 

People really need to grasp this and use their common sense and if you're not a subject matter expert or have documented proof then stop spreading erroneous speculation. 

The only proof that would matter is a case where James River Insurance denied claim for having unaccompanied minor in vehicle. And even then I would give the first person that can show me that denial for that reason (and was not reversed) one hundred dollars. I will PayPal it. But I guarantee you I'm not losing a hundred bucks because I know what I'm talking about.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

The TOS is law, sorry to break it to you. By all means do what you want. Their business is based on the TOS, their insurance is based on the TOS, everything about their business is based on their TOS. Since they intentionally left it out for the driver, that only leads to a problem. I am not taking a minor alone, it says you can't. If you want to risk filing a claim by all means go ahead. When they don't follow up on simple answers I doubt they would bend backwards and represent you or pay the claim, what incentive do they have when all they do is bend the law, bend the rules and basically do what they want, including lowering rates to drivers? Now they are on top of covering people they shouldn't but they drop the ball on everything else. No thanks.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

The parents are suing you too, not sure what part you don't get? Your car insurance does not cover that.


----------



## RamzFanz

OK, you ready for the bottom line according to RamzFanz the all knowing?

PASSENGERS can't have an account if they are under 18. Minors can not travel without the account holder or another approved adult.

DRIVERS are not responsible if they do and the insurance is 100% in force because it insures US against liability, not the pax directly. There is no exception for unaccompanied minors in the insurance that covers US.

WE are not required in any way to enforce the PAX TOS. It is an agreement between them and Uber.

That is what I believe after going back and forth with Uber on this issue and looking at the documents. Take it for what you will.

"As an independent contractor, questions such as this are left to your discretion. You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know."


----------



## RamzFanz

5 Star Guy said:


> The TOS is law, sorry to break it to you.


I stopped reading there. It's not law. It's an agreement with the pax and Uber that could result in pax deactivation if it's not followed. We aren't even obligated to read it much less agree or be rule enforcers.

The insurance insures us, not the pax. There is no exception for minors or anyone for that matter. THAT is enforceable by insurance laws.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

RamzFanz said:


> OK, you ready for the bottom line according to RamzFanz the all knowing?
> 
> PASSENGERS can't have an account if they are under 18. Minors can not travel without the account holder or another approved adult.
> 
> DRIVERS are not responsible if they do and the insurance is 100% in force because it insures US against liability, not the pax directly. There is no exception for unaccompanied minors in the insurance that covers US.
> 
> WE are not required in any way to enforce the PAX TOS. It is an agreement between them and Uber.
> 
> That is what I believe after going back and forth with Uber on this issue and looking at the documents. Take it for what you will.
> 
> "As an independent contractor, questions such as this are left to your discretion. You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know."


Well done, very impressed. Looks like the bottom line is read their insurance policy. I don't believe it is made public or I would've answered it a long time ago. I am not taking any chances until I read it and I don't suggest others do either, which was the point of this thread.

Like I said, your car insurance does not cover the parents suing you unless you have TNC Gap insurance to be fully covered.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> The TOS is law, sorry to break it to you. By all means do what you want. Their business is based on the TOS, their insurance is based on the TOS, everything about their business is based on their TOS. Since they intentionally left it out for the driver, that only leads to a problem. I am not taking a minor alone, it says you can't.


Uber Passenger TOS is law?

Maybe if you read Law for Dummies and still don't grasp it.

You are WRONG! The Department of Insurance for each State is law. Not Uber and not James River Insurance either.

Your contract as a driver is only what you sign. Did you have to sign and agree on the Passenger TOS in order to drive? No. You're agreement is not with the Rider it is with Uber. So the Rider TOS can say anything but unless you agree to it in the Partner agreement it does not matter. PERIOD.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> The parents are suing you too, not sure what part you don't get? Your car insurance does not cover that.


I actually get it because I (unlike you) actually understand insurance quite well.


----------



## Drago619

The TOS is law?????? Wow now i know you realy dont get it. Just remeber to check every pax ID before you hit start trip or else your breaking your own said TOS law.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Geez you guys give us drivers a bad reputation. A TOS serves a purpose. Google it. They did not need to include that in their TOS, so since they did you can explain it.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Geez you guys give us drivers a bad reputation. A TOS serves a purpose. Google it. They did not need to include that in their TOS, so since they did you can explain it.


No you give us drivers a bad name to think we're so uneducated to believe Uber Passenger TOS is law for DRIVERS. With that kind of stupidity people will think drivers deserve minimum wage.


----------



## Drago619

Actually please stop 5 star.. I know you have read the partner agreement back to front several times trying to find something to back up your fake claims. Stop waisting your time with this and trying to scare drivers away from perfectly good fares.


----------



## MattyMikey

Drago619 said:


> Actually please stop 5 star.. I know you have read the partner agreement back to front several times trying to find something to back up your fake claims. Stop waisting your time with this and trying to scare drivers away from perfectly good fares.


Maybe he needs to use google to search Uber Partner Agreement and then maybe a few searches for understanding contacts.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

A TOS is their law that people using their service must follow. So go paste the JR insurance policy.


----------



## Ziggy

Forget the insurance aspect for a minute ... Do you really want to be the last person who saw a UM before they went missing?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Looks like you don't have the JR insurance policy and can't explain why the TOS states you can't. Hmm.


----------



## RamzFanz

5 Star Guy said:


> Well done, very impressed. Looks like the bottom line is read their insurance policy. I don't believe it is made public or I would've answered it a long time ago. I am not taking any chances until I read it and I don't suggest others do either, which was the point of this thread.
> 
> Like I said, your car insurance does not cover the parents suing you unless you have TNC Gap insurance to be fully covered.


I haven't read any TNC policy but I doubt it covers you in a civil lawsuit specifically. You can get professional liability insurance for that.

I suggest you start IDing all pax to ensure they are both the legal account holder and not a minor then. If you are carrying minors who Uber allowed to have an account against the TOS, I guess that's up to you to enforce too. Not sure how you will do that with just an unverified first name.


----------



## RamzFanz

5 Star Guy said:


> Geez you guys give us drivers a bad reputation. A TOS serves a purpose. Google it. They did not need to include that in their TOS, so since they did you can explain it.


We don't have to. We aren't a party to that agreement.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

I've been trying to tell you that a TNC Gap policy fully covers you as if you were driving yourself to the movies. Otherwise you are not.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> A TOS is their law that people using their service must follow. So go paste the JR insurance policy.


Maybe law for passengers but not certainly driver partners.

And their TOS can't mention refusal to cover a claim.

You think Uber is all big and smart so wouldn't you think that if they could get away with it and add that exclusion they wouldn't? They have a bigger legal team probably than most elementary schools have in pupils. They know the law. They're at least smart enough to not put something so hogwash as your statements.


----------



## RamzFanz

Ziggy said:


> Forget the insurance aspect for a minute ... Do you really want to be the last person who saw a UM before they went missing?


Dashcam.


----------



## Ziggy

RamzFanz said:


> Not sure how you will do that with just an unverified first name.


Granted, you might have to get paid for a few "No Shows" ... but generally, it's pretty easy to tell how old someone is ... "just ask them". Sure, some kids will lie ... but most will brag about how old they are or are not.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

I'll believe it when you guys paste the JR policy, should be easy.


----------



## MattyMikey

Ziggy said:


> Forget the insurance aspect for a minute ... Do you really want to be the last person who saw a UM before they went missing?


Nope so that's why I have multiple cameras to protect my butt. If I didn't no way would I pick them up.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Maybe law for passengers but not certainly driver partners.
> 
> And their TOS can't mention refusal to cover a claim.
> 
> You think Uber is all big and smart so wouldn't you think that if they could get away with it and add that exclusion they wouldn't? They have a bigger legal team probably than most elementary schools have in pupils. They know the law. They're at least smart enough to not put something so hogwash as your statements.


Hello, they did. The TOS.


----------



## Ziggy

RamzFanz said:


> Dashcam.


Yeah ... got one; but that doesn't record everything. In the end, do what you want to do ... I for one do not pickup UM. And I have no issue with parents threatening me if I don't p/u their UM.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Nope so that's why I have multiple cameras to protect my butt. If I didn't no way would I pick them up.


 Hmm, so now you're covered but you need a dashcam. I think that's the end of that.


----------



## Drago619

5 Star Guy said:


> I'll believe it when you guys paste the JR policy, should be easy.


You have had 15 threads to prove your nonsense and you havent..so please stop..im sure you have better things to do like googling an ID checker for your center console.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Hello, they did. The TOS.


Oh I'm sorry. I didn't know the passenger TOS mentioned ANYTHING about insurance. I thought it just said have to be 18.

You know nothing about what you're talking about! You're bring riders breaking rules as grounds to deny a claim.

Wrong!

Uber can't deny claims. They're not the insurance carrier (underwriter).


----------



## UberLaLa

Coachman said:


> If it didn't take much, we'd see it happening all the time.
> 
> You can't find one case out of 160,000 Uber drivers in the US.


I tend to agree with you on this Coachman. But I took your challenge and googled _uber driver accused of child molestation _and this came up: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...r-to-pay-after-driver-molested-her-child.html


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Hmm, so now you're covered but you need a dashcam. I think that's the end of that.


I don't like to speculate (unlike you) and have never read any of your prior posts.

But based off your responses I bet it is safe to say you drive full time don't you? Because with your rationale I know you don't work in corporate America.

The dash cam comment was in regards to my protection for accusations of inappropriate behavior with a minor or to prove I did not kidnap a minor.

It had nothing to do with the insurance aspect argument.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> I don't like to speculate (unlike you) and have never read any of your prior posts.
> 
> But based off your responses I bet it is safe to say you drive full time don't you? Because with your rationale I know you don't work in corporate America.
> 
> The dash cam comment was in regards to my protection for accusations of inappropriate behavior with a minor or to prove I did not kidnap a minor.
> 
> It had nothing to do with the insurance aspect argument.
> 
> You're not very intelligent my friend. Sorry to say. At this point I actually feel sorry for you.


Do not attack me. Looks like they claimed, as I have stated throughout this thread that they are putting the responsibility on the driver. If you're the insurance expert here then it should be very easy to post the JR policy. Let us know why the minor reference is in the TOS too, we are waiting.


----------



## Coachman

UberLaLa said:


> I tend to agree with you on this Coachman. But I took your challenge and googled _uber driver accused of child molestation _and this came up: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...r-to-pay-after-driver-molested-her-child.html


I was talking about cases of false accusation of molestation. Not an actual molestation.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Do not attack me. Looks like they claimed, as I have stated throughout this thread that they are putting the responsibility on the driver. If you're the insurance expert here then it should be very easy to post the JR policy. Let us know why the minor reference is in the TOS too, we are waiting.


Getting a copy of the policy is not public. If you are involved in a claim you can secure a copy of it in legal proceedings.

Guess what? You know why you can't find it leaked on the internet? Because they are not denying liability claims!

Trust me if they were denying claims it would be litigated and a copy of their policy would have made it in google.

When you do searches for James River denied liability claim due to minor or Uber denied claim because minor passenger.... Why can't you find anything?

Because this is not happening!!!!!

I am an insurance expert and I know what I'm talking about. IF they were to have any exclusions on the policy coverage they would have to let you know and sign it.

Plus something else you're not realizing - do you think that the municipalities would allow Uber to operate in their cities with this type of bs exclusions you're thinking apply? Hell no.

And I'm sorry for you taking it as an attack. Nothing against you personally. I just don't like stupid.


----------



## UberLaLa

Coachman said:


> I was talking about cases of false accusation of molestation. Not an actual molestation.


Oh, that is _actual_? How do you *know* this?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Getting a copy of the policy is not public. If you are involved in a claim you can secure a copy of it in legal proceedings.
> 
> Guess what? You know why you can't find it leaked on the internet? Because they are not denying liability claims!
> 
> Trust me if they were denying claims it would be litigated and a copy of their policy would have made it in google.
> 
> When you do searches for James River denied liability claim due to minor or Uber denied claim because minor passenger.... Why can't you find anything?
> 
> Because this is not happening!!!!!
> 
> I am an insurance expert and I know what I'm talking about. IF they were to have any exclusions on the policy coverage they would have to let you know and sign it.
> 
> Plus something else you're not realizing - do you think that the municipalities would allow Uber to operate in their cities with this type of bs exclusions you're thinking apply? Hell no.
> 
> And I'm sorry for you taking it as an attack. Nothing against you personally. I just don't like stupid.


You keep digging that hole. First you need a dashcam, now you can't find the JR policy and yet you want to believe you know more than us and you attack me? Got it. Thanks for making that very clear. I'll stick with facts thanks.

The reason it might not be made public is there is no claim. It falls on the driver, like everything else, which continues to be the point I have been making. That's how it works. Now if you want to find something that helps your case then go ahead like I said, we are waiting. Stop digging a hole at least.


----------



## Drago619

Ok 5 star..forget about proving your dumb claims..just tell us what model ID checker your using..does it plug usb? Can you swipe a state ID or just drivers license..im sure your using one because i know you wouldnt want to risk an un insured pax in your vehicle and just checking IDs with the naked eye can still be sketchy.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> You keep digging that hole. First you need a dashcam, now you can't find the JR policy and yet you want to believe you know more than us and you attack me? Got it. Thanks for making that very clear. I'll stick with facts thanks.
> 
> The reason it might not be made public is there is no claim. It falls on the driver, like everything else, which continues to be the point I have been making. That's how it works. Now if you want to find something that helps your case then go ahead like I said, we are waiting. Stop digging a hole at least.


Even if you were accurate (which you're not) and the reason can't find JR or Uber denying the claims is because it falls on the driver was accurate.... You still have a flaw in this argument...

It would still have been denied. Uber and JR would have at least originally been named a party in the claim and lawsuit. Then if it were to get dismissed and all liability determined to be on driver, guess what?

It would still be on the Internet. As court records are public. So your argument is wrong. Completely.

And I'm all over the place? No, the original posts mentions the rider TOS and why it is not safe to transport unaccompanied minors. Their TOS for the riders does NOT mention anything about the insurance.

I was responding to what I do to mitigate the true risks of driving a minor (since your insurance argument is complete fantasy) and what I do.


----------



## UberLaLa

Here is my thought on this. I have picked up a few unaccompanied minors. But, I do believe if there were an accident - God forbid - both Uber and their insurance would throw me as the Driver (last line of accountability) under the bus.

Take for instance, I picked up an adult, rather sick (at least sick in that he just did Chemo) patient one time. His health provider dispatched me to pick him up. He was not the App holder. I knew this because his health provider called me to tell me that is what they were doing. He told me once he was in the car that he had just had the Chemo, and they do it this way because he is unable to drive himself home after the treatment. If that passenger happened to die, due to an adverse reaction to the Chemo, in my Uber. I would be included in that lawsuit. Think Uber or their insurance would cover me? I do not believe they would. They DO NOT have our back. IMHO We are Independent Contractors.


----------



## MattyMikey

They would have to cover you up to the limits of $1 million. But of course you would be named a party. That is normal. Include everyone. Does not mean you will have to pay it.


----------



## murdoch

Some of these responses cracked me up. But that's why I asked about whether they were checking every passenger's ID. Using their rationale, that's the only way they should be driving for Uber if they really want to mitigate their risks of getting an underage or non-account holder rider.


----------



## UberLaLa

MattyMikey said:


> They would have to cover you up to the limits of $1 million. But of course you would be named a party. That is normal. Include everyone. *Does not mean you will have to pay it.*


Does mean I would need to lawyer up at my expense, unless I have Rideshare Gap Insurance. Which I do not. : /

And, what if the family/lawyer were suing for $10m?


----------



## MyRedUber

So, rather than taking these minors via a safe ride to a safe place requested / approved by their parents, you're all just going to drive away and leave them by the roadside?


----------



## MattyMikey

UberLaLa said:


> Does mean I would need to lawyer up at my expense, unless I have Rideshare Gap Insurance. Which I do not. : /


James River would actually represent you as they are your insurance carrier while engaged in the commercial aspects. And the only way someone is getting more than a million dollars is likely if their was punitive damages. Meaning the driver had to have done something so bad like being under the influence or reckless driving for that to happen. Plus at this point the parents insurance company's Underinsured Motorists coverage would kick in for anything over the million. Then their insurance company could sue you for that money back at which point your insurance company would likely step in if you have rideshare approval.

But this makes no difference whether or not they are unaccompanied or not. Trust me you get in an at fault accident the parents are going to sue Uber and also name you as well even if they were in the car.


----------



## UberLaLa

MyRedUber said:


> So, rather than taking these minors via a safe ride to a safe place requested / approved by their parents, you're all just going to drive away and leave them by the roadside?


Not me. I take them. Just saying that Uber does not have our backs for doing such....pretty sucky, huh?

Case in Point: https://uberpeople.net/threads/toss...mmy-and-daddy-probably-tossed-his-uber.42160/


----------



## MattyMikey

UberLaLa said:


> Not me. I take them. Just saying that Uber does not have our backs for doing such....pretty sucky, huh?


I am glad you take them. I do. And the part of Uber not having our backs is crap. Simple proof is how many articles you read about how bad Uber is? I get google alerts anytime Uber is mentioned. Never once seen them deny an insurance claim (or shall I say their insurance carrier deny a claim) for a passenger or minor.


----------



## UberLaLa

MattyMikey said:


> I am glad you take them. I do. And the part of Uber not having our backs is crap. Simple proof is how many articles you read about how bad Uber is? I get google alerts anytime Uber is mentioned. Never once seen them deny an insurance claim (or shall I say their insurance carrier deny a claim) for a passenger or minor.


Absolutely they will cover the passengers without a doubt. I had a guy run a red light my 2nd month of driving this time last year. Went through all the hoops with Uber to make sure my ducks were in a row because I had Uber passengers in the car with me (thank God nobody hurt). Uber lawyer called me, the whole nine-yards. Long and short of it....if I needed to go with James River (Uber insurance) I would have had to pay $1,000 deductible (Lyft is $2,500!). Fortunately, other guy was totally at fault and his insurances covered the $6k in damages to my vehicle and rental car for the two weeks. : )


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> I am glad you take them. I do. And the part of Uber not having our backs is crap. Simple proof is how many articles you read about how bad Uber is? I get google alerts anytime Uber is mentioned. Never once seen them deny an insurance claim (or shall I say their insurance carrier deny a claim) for a passenger or minor.


Geez, you just keep digging that hole. To recap, you do take minors alone. You have a dashcam, you have zero facts on JR insurance, you think their parents must have insurance, you are tossed under the bus but don't worry about it. Am I missing anything?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

UberLaLa, there weren't minors alone, so that sounds right. You could let us know what questions the lawyers asked, noticed lawyers, not JR insurance. Hmm.


----------



## MattyMikey

UberLaLa said:


> Absolutely they will cover the passengers without a doubt. I had a guy run a red light my 2nd month of driving this time last year. Went through all the hoops with Uber to make sure my ducks were in a row because I had Uber passengers in the car with me (thank God nobody hurt). Uber lawyer called me, the whole nine-yards. Long and short of it....if I needed to go with James River (Uber insurance) I would have had to pay $1,000 deductible (Lyft is $2,500!). Fortunately, other guy was totally at fault and his insurances covered the $6k in damages to my vehicle and rental car for the two weeks. : )


Yeah deductibles suck. But no deductible for liability. You only pay deductible for your car repairs. But only if your fault. If you damage vehicle and other drivers fault their policy pays it under their liability. Glad it worked out the way it was supposed to and it wasn't you running the light and being out a grand


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Geez, you just keep digging that hole. To recap, you do take minors alone. You have a dashcam, you have zero facts on JR insurance, you think their parents must have insurance, you are tossed under the bus but don't worry about it. Am I missing anything?


I know about JR insurance. But that does not mean I have access to their confidential and proprietary information.

So let's say you want me to show you documents from an insured with the company I work for (top 5 companies) do you think I would break company rules, and insurance rules and provide NPI (to save from googling means Non-Public Information) from a customer?

No! So why would I have access to JR's NPI? That's ludicrous. To say I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm not willing or able to post confidential information on here is absurd.

But even if the policy was posted, I don't need to read it to know what I'm talking about. I know insurance laws very well. I know what can and can't be in the contract. And what you're suggesting may be in there cannot be in there.

And the proof in the pudding is on you. Find one case (just one) to show a denial of liability coverage involving JR and Uber and I'll applaud you.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

That's exactly why there is an issue. If it was stated and upfront we would be finished on the first [post]. The first page here states minors are not allowed alone on the system, so why is that there? Their TOS like any TOS must comply with laws and their insurance. There is nothing omitted, that's the point of the TOS. The TOS is put together by their legal dept. So when you can say for certain a driver will never be tossed under the bus then I will take a minor. I stated earlier my average pax is 30 and I am not taking anyone under 21. If they're at a bar they're 21. If they're going to a Disney movie I might check, just want to be sure you're getting all of this so I threw that in there like you'll get thrown under the bus. Your insurance will not cover you, hmm I don't see any mention of TNC Gap coverage either. I wonder why since you are the insurance expert?


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> That's exactly why there is an issue. If it was stated and upfront we would be finished on the first [post]. The first page here states minors are not allowed alone on the system, so why is that there? Their TOS like any TOS must comply with laws and their insurance. There is nothing omitted, that's the point of the TOS. The TOS is put together by their legal dept. So when you can say for certain a driver will never be tossed under the bus then I will take a minor. I stated earlier my average pax is 30 and I am not taking anyone under 21. If they're at a bar they're 21. If they're going to a Disney movie I might check, just want to be sure you're getting all of this so I threw that in there like you'll get thrown under the bus. Your insurance will not cover you, hmm I don't see any mention of TNC Gap coverage either. I wonder why since you are the insurance expert?


The Rider TOS has nothing to do with insurance. Show me where it talks about the insurance.

The contract we have with Uber is the Partner Agreement NOT the Rider TOS. It is not the drivers responsibility to know or enforce the Riders TOS.

I have not mentioned TNC Insurance because I have not been asked to do so. And to be honest, anyone not having TNC coverage is stupid.

However, TNC Insurance has nothing to do with the argument of this post. TNC is primary when not in stage 2 and 3. Having a passenger would make James River be the responsible insurance carrier not your TNC Insurance.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

I was going to Like your post but then you lost it at the end. TNC Gap will cover the remaining of what JR does not. It will not give you additional insurance, now they say with the TNC Gap you should consider increasing your coverage to be better protected, which is why there is an issue. See how this is all related? Like when you stated you hope 1M is enough? It might not be. How many pax are in your car? That 1M adds up very quickly. Drivers need to know and not fall for it, like everything else they say.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

Beur said:


> Continue reading section 3:
> 
> "The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18. You may not authorize third parties to use your Account, and you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you."


https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms

Rereading that again it actually looks like they are saying that you must be atleast 18 to simply be an account holder and that you can transport minors as long as the account holder is with them.

I'm shooting off another email to support.


----------



## Beur

uberdriverfornow said:


> https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms
> 
> Rereading that again it actually looks like they are saying that you must be atleast 18 to simply be an account holder and that you can transport minors as long as the account holder is with them.
> 
> I'm shooting off another email to support.


That's exactly what it says.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> I was going to Like your post but then you lost it at the end. TNC Gap will cover the remaining of what JR does not. It will not give you additional insurance, now they say with the TNC Gap you should consider increasing your coverage to be better protected, which is why there is an issue. See how this is all related? Like when you stated you hope 1M is enough? It might not be. How many pax are in your car? That 1M adds up very quickly. Drivers need to know and not fall for it, like everything else they say.


Not all TNC Insurance provides secondary (or excess) coverage while in stages 2 or 3. Since commercial policy is responsible. So me being an insurance professional to give people false protection saying it does provide excess coverage would be not inaccurate in all cases.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Forget smh, how do you say bang your head against the wall at this point?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Not all TNC Insurance provides secondary (or excess) coverage while in stages 2 or 3. Since commercial policy is responsible. So me being an insurance professional to give people false protection saying it does provide excess coverage would be not inaccurate in all cases.


Great, then show us one that does not and what the lingo is to look for that does not include everything.


----------



## MattyMikey

This is how I do it


----------



## UberLaLa

MattyMikey said:


> Yeah deductibles suck. But no deductible for liability. You only pay deductible for your car repairs. But only if your fault. If you damage vehicle and other drivers fault their policy pays it under their liability. Glad it worked out the way it was supposed to and it wasn't you running the light and being out a grand


If other driver at fault, and say they are uninsured, I would have still had to pay the deductible. One has a deductible on their own comprehensive (usually $250-$500).


----------



## MattyMikey

UberLaLa said:


> If other driver at fault, and say they are uninsured, I would have still had to pay the deductible. One has a deductible on their own comprehensive (usually $250-$500).


Well then that normally would be covered under Uninsured Motorist Property Damage. However in case of James River they probably charge the full $1000 deductible. Some States limit the deductible though. So it could be cheaper. You could sue the other driver that is uninsured for your deductible back. Good luck if they don't have anything though


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Great, then show us one that does not and what the lingo is to look for that does not include everything.


If you really want to know this I will research my contract I have with Metromile and let you know. I can't access the policy on phone as it only shows me first page. I don't want to get my laptop out at the moment to look at it in full. But I'm pretty sure they do not cover anything outside period 1. That is reason they don't charge you miles driven for Uber because they are not covering it and are not carrying any risk. But I have not read theirs yet so I don't want to completely speculate on that.

I do know Allstate covers it in fact reduces your deductible in periods 2 and 3 to match your policy deductible with them. Pretty good coverage they offer. But they're expensive as all hell.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> If you really want to know this I will research my contract I have with Metromile and let you know. I can't access the policy on phone as it only shows me first page. I don't want to get my laptop out at the moment to look at it in full. But I'm pretty sure they do not cover anything outside period 1. That is reason they don't charge you miles driven for Uber because they are not covering it and are not carrying any risk. But I have not read theirs yet so I don't want to completely speculate on that.
> 
> I do know Allstate covers it in fact reduces your deductible in periods 2 and 3 to match your policy deductible with them. Pretty good coverage they offer. But they're expensive as all hell.


I have no doubt Metromile is barebones. I'm glad you have it but to be an insurance expert and not be fully covered is like the chef who doesn't cook at home. Get covered before you're screwed, which continues to be my point.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> I have no doubt Metromile is barebones. I'm glad you have it but to be an insurance expert and not be fully covered is like the chef who doesn't cook at home. Get covered before you're screwed, which continues to be my point.


I agree but we are limited on rideshare options in Washington State. Allstate is so much I could almost purchase a commercial policy. It was like 400 a month whereas I pay not even $180 a month now. Granted it is for 3 newer cars with full coverage and maximum liability of 500k. I am waiting for more options. I do know several companies should be coming to Washington soon with Rideshare endorsement. They are waiting on regulatory approval. Washington State Department of Insurance is very difficult to get things done in timely manner. They're very strict.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

Here is the response and it is clear as day.

*XXXXX* (Uber)

Mar 6, XXXX

Hi XXXXXXXX,

Thanks for reaching out. Happy to assist you.

Yes, XXXXXXX, you are correct. It's not allowed to transport a person that is under the age of 18. Also, it not allowed to transport anyone unless they are the account holder or the account holder is with them.

Please let me know if there's anything else I can assist you. I'll be happy to help.

If you have future concerns, you can check our help page by clicking this link.

Best,

*XXXXXX*
help.uber.com


----------



## MattyMikey

Okay apparently you have not been reading the messages - that is the only thing clear as day. 

I am not arguing that the RIDER TOS says no to anyone using if under 18 unless accompanied by adult. 

I am saying:

- This term has nothing to do with insurance. Meaning if they violate they are not covered in an accident. 

- The RIDER TOS is rules agreed to by the RIDER and NOT THE DRIVER. As this same rule is NOT in the drivers agreement or their equivalent TOS. 

- The offshore CSR messages are inconsistent at best. Proves nothing as they are not the company representative to officially determine or interpret policy or contracts. Heck if you read your post it does not make sense. The above is saying can't transport ANY minors. Does not even state the correct statement of unaccompanied minors without adult account holder.


----------



## Beur

You people are amazing, first you demand proof from Uber, you turn thehappytypist words around to suit your argument that's it's ok to transport unaccompanied minors and now that you have copies of emails from CSR's they don't know what they're talking about.

The original topic was about picking up unaccompanied minors, Coachman came in stating its ok to pick unaccompanied minors, after the question was correctly answered on the first page. That should have been the end of the discussion, but no he had to keep insisting it's allowed.

Case closed you cannot give rides to unaccompanied minors, end of story.


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> Case closed you cannot give rides to unaccompanied minors, end of story.


Lets forget, for the moment, whether unaccompanied minors are insured or not insured. I'd like you to make your best guess as to how many unaccompanied minors ride on Uber each day. Just for kicks.

(And by the way, 5 Star made it about insurance in post #3.)


----------



## Beur

Coachman said:


> Lets forget, for the moment, whether unaccompanied minors are insured or not insured. I'd like you to make your best guess as to how many unaccompanied minors ride on Uber each day. Just for kicks.
> 
> (And by the way, 5 Star made it about insurance in post #3.)


I don't care, there could be a million, it doesn't change the fact that it's not allowed. It's drivers like you who pick up unaccompanied minors that make it tough on the rest of us who follow Uber guidelines by not accepting their ride.

I stand corrected.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Notice how the only people in 18 pages who argue the facts are the same ones who give the rides to minors when they shouldn't, [give us] drivers a bad reputation, attack us here and yet know damn well it is not allowed. They do not have a copy of the JR insurance policy, which I have not doubt is owned by them. They work hand in hand. Go Google that one. There is no defense to it, it doesn't matter if it is or is not in the driver TOS, for all I know it is today. Geez. Go get a better job if you need to take a minor alone.


----------



## MattyMikey

Beur said:


> You people are amazing, first you demand proof from Uber, you turn thehappytypist words around to suit your argument that's it's ok to transport unaccompanied minors and now that you have copies of emails from CSR's they don't know what they're talking about.
> 
> The original topic was about picking up unaccompanied minors, Coachman came in and made it about unaccompanied minors and insurance.
> 
> Case closed you cannot give rides to unaccompanied minors, end of story.


I started my input in response to the inaccurate insurance info and even added this to my message which you find so amazing:



MattyMikey said:


> I am not arguing that the RIDER TOS says no to anyone using if under 18 unless accompanied by adult.


So you have no argument.

Especially because even if we take the insurance aspect out of the picture your argument and prove is still wrong.

The rider is NOT supposed to under 18 unless with their legal guardian that is account holder. That is correct per their RIDER TOS.

The driver is NOT obliged to follow the RIDER TOS because guess what? They're NOT the rider. Drivers have their own TOS or partner agreement. No such rules exists in their contract mentioning minors or requiring drivers to know and FOLLOW rider TOS.

So even IF the Uber CSR sends any email saying something else, they cannot create or amend the driver contract. Anytime Uber makes a change to the agreement they have to make an addendum which you must agree to and view. They can't just send an email saying things that contradicts the signed agreement. Heck, even Uber executives (even Travis himself) couldn't send you an email stating updates to policy that violate the signed agreement. Contracts follow contract law.

So grasp it, the proof is wrong. Insurance or otherwise.

Maybe you should spend your time emailing Uber and tell them to make an addendum to partner agreement to say we can't transport unaccompanied minors.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

MattyMikey said:


> Okay apparently you have not been reading the messages - that is the only thing clear as day.
> 
> I am not arguing that the RIDER TOS says no to anyone using if under 18 unless accompanied by adult.
> 
> I am saying:
> 
> - This term has nothing to do with insurance. Meaning if they violate they are not covered in an accident.
> 
> - The RIDER TOS is rules agreed to by the RIDER and NOT THE DRIVER. As this same rule is NOT in the drivers agreement or their equivalent TOS.
> 
> - The offshore CSR messages are inconsistent at best. Proves nothing as they are not the company representative to officially determine or interpret policy or contracts. Heck if you read your post it does not make sense. The above is saying can't transport ANY minors. Does not even state the correct statement of unaccompanied minors without adult account holder.


The CSR is acting in an official capacity as an agent of Uber so Uber is liable for everything they say in an official capacity. I'm not taking any chances. All minors are going to be politely getting denied service by me from now on. Yes I'm sure they are not going to be happy but I not taking any chances if there is an accident and not having someone covered.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Too funny. You definitely dug that hole deeper. I do hope you get accused at this point and I hope you don't get in an accident, although both are well deserved at this point.


----------



## MattyMikey

uberdriverfornow said:


> The CSR is acting in an official capacity as an agent of Uber so Uber is liable for everything they say in an official capacity. I'm not taking any chances. All minors are going to be politely getting denied service by me from now on. Yes I'm sure they are not going to be happy but I not taking any chances if there is an accident and not having someone covered.


Drivers are not employees. So an employer can give directive or rules to you.

As an independent contractor rule changes need to be made by a change (addendum) to contract you must accept.

If you notice they always make their canned response never saying "you can't do this" but it essentially is up to you to use your judgement. They do this because they don't want to make it as an employer argument in a lawsuit.

So even if Uber CSR speaks for the company, if something is not in the partner agreement (contract) what they say (or anyone at Uber says) does not hold any water. You have to agree by accepting ANY addendum changes. They can't add anything to the contract (so any rules) without you accepting them. Period. Basic contract law.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

5 Star Guy said:


> Too funny. You definitely dug that hole deeper. I do hope you get accused at this point and I hope you don't get in an accident, although both are well deserved at this point.


Who are you referring ?


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Too funny. You definitely dug that hole deeper. I do hope you get accused at this point and I hope you don't get in an accident, although both are well deserved at this point.


Just because I know what I'm talking about and you may not, what a horrible thing to say to someone. As much as I believe you don't grasp anything and your arguments lack any factual value, I would never wish you to be accused of anything.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

MattyMikey said:


> Drivers are not employees. So an employer can give directive or rules to you.
> 
> As an independent contractor rule changes need to be made by a change (addendum) to contract you must accept.
> 
> If you notice they always make their canned response never saying "you can't do this" but it essentially is up to you to use your judgement. They do this because they don't want to make it as an employer argument in a lawsuit.
> 
> So even if Uber CSR speaks for the company, if something is not in the partner agreement (contract) what they say (or anyone at Uber says) does not hold any water. You have to agree by accepting ANY addendum changes. They can't add anything to the contract (so any rules) without you accepting them. Period. Basic contract law.


We are employees. Everyone know this. I know this. You know this. Each and every unemployment commissioner I have heard rule in an unemployment insurance hearing/appeal has agreed. Just because Uber doesnt want to believe it, doesnt change it. When we win the lawsuit then you will know it.


----------



## Coachman

uberdriverfornow said:


> The CSR is acting in an official capacity as an agent of Uber so Uber is liable for everything they say in an official capacity. I'm not taking any chances. All minors are going to be politely getting denied service by me from now on. Yes I'm sure they are not going to be happy but I not taking any chances if there is an accident and not having someone covered.


No one here has suggested that anybody should take minors or any other passengers with whom they're uncomfortable. What we are suggesting is that people stop popping into these threads declaring that minors are not covered by insurance when they have little or no evidence that that's the case.

We have CSR responses that say minors are not covered and we have CSR responses that say do what you feel comfortable with. So the only thing to conclude from that is that the CSR's haven't been adequately trained on the matter.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Okay apparently you have not been reading the messages - that is the only thing clear as day.
> 
> I am not arguing that the RIDER TOS says no to anyone using if under 18 unless accompanied by adult.
> 
> I am saying:
> 
> - This term has nothing to do with insurance. Meaning if they violate they are not covered in an accident.
> 
> - The RIDER TOS is rules agreed to by the RIDER and NOT THE DRIVER. As this same rule is NOT in the drivers agreement or their equivalent TOS.
> 
> - The offshore CSR messages are inconsistent at best. Proves nothing as they are not the company representative to officially determine or interpret policy or contracts. Heck if you read your post it does not make sense. The above is saying can't transport ANY minors. Does not even state the correct statement of unaccompanied minors without adult account holder.


It says you can transport a minor if the policy holder is with them.


----------



## MattyMikey

uberdriverfornow said:


> We are employees. Everyone know this. I know this. You know this. Each and every unemployment commissioner I have heard rule in an unemployment insurance hearing/appeal has agreed. Just because Uber doesnt want to believe it, doesnt change it. When we win the lawsuit then you will know it.


And what a case would be if a driver follows the partner agreement and then got in trouble for not following the Rider TOS that would be a perfect case to add to the win. But right now we deal with contract. Our contract not the riders.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> No one here has suggested that anybody should take minors or any other passengers with whom they're uncomfortable. What we are suggesting is that people stop popping into these threads declaring that minors are not covered by insurance when they have little or no evidence that that's the case.
> 
> We have CSR responses that say minors are not covered and we have CSR responses that say do what you feel comfortable with. So the only thing to conclude from that is that the CSR's haven't been adequately trained on the matter.


Do you have any evidence that says non account holders are covered by the policy?


----------



## Coachman

Beur said:


> I don't care, there could be a million, it doesn't change the fact that it's not allowed.


That's not the way the law looks at things. The law looks at actions, not your words. And Uber is clearly allowing minors to use their service. Tens of thousands every day.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> Do you have any evidence that says non account holders are covered by the policy?


"Authorized Users" are covered. Not just the account holder. Users riding with the account holder are covered as well as users authorized to ride by the account holder.

All the unaccompanied minors I've driven have their own account, so they are, in fact, the account holder. And on each ride, I have a waybill with the minor rider's name and the insurance certificate provided by James River. That's my evidence.

It's up to you to prove that that certificate is null and void.


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> It says you can transport a minor if the policy holder is with them.


Actually the Rider TOS says they can't ride if they're not 18 unless the account holder is with them.

It does not say "we can transport" them because they are not talking to drivers because it is not in the driver agreement. They only speaking to the riders.

And drivers do not have to follow, read, or enforce RIDER TOS as there is no such requirement in the drivers TOS (partner agreement, aka contract).


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> "Authorized Users" are covered. Not just the account holder. Users riding with the account holder are covered as well as users authorized to ride by the account holder.
> 
> All the unaccompanied minors I've driven have their own account, so they are, in fact, the account holder. And on each ride, I have a waybill with the rider's name and the insurance certificate provided by James River. That's my evidence.
> 
> It's up to you to prove that that certificate is null and void.


They are only covered if the account holder is in the vehicle with them.

You have neverd riven an unaccompanied minor who had their own account. Sorry.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

MattyMikey said:


> Drivers are not employees. So an employer can give directive or rules to you.
> 
> As an independent contractor rule changes need to be made by a change (addendum) to contract you must accept.
> 
> If you notice they always make their canned response never saying "you can't do this" but it essentially is up to you to use your judgement. They do this because they don't want to make it as an employer argument in a lawsuit.
> 
> So even if Uber CSR speaks for the company, if something is not in the partner agreement (contract) what they say (or anyone at Uber says) does not hold any water. You have to agree by accepting ANY addendum changes. They can't add anything to the contract (so any rules) without you accepting them. Period. Basic contract law.


It doesnt sound like you understand the difference between a contract and an agreement. The TOS is an agreement not a contract. If it were a contract then it would be an employment contract, but do you think Uber would agree that we are employees ?


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Actually the Rider TOS says they can't ride if they're not 18 unless the account holder is with them.
> 
> It does not say "we can transport" them because they are not talking to drivers because it is not in the driver agreement. They only speaking to the riders.
> 
> And drivers do not have to follow, read, or enforce RIDER TOS as there is no such requirement in the drivers TOS (partner agreement, aka contract).


Drivers must follow the driver agreement. What does the driver agreement say about giving rides to non account holders when the account holder is not present?


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> They are only covered if the account holder is in the vehicle with them.
> 
> You have neverd riven an unaccompanied minor who had their own account. Sorry.


Only covered by what insurance? Where does it mention this?? Don't add your own spin to things.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Only covered by what insurance? Where does it mention this?? Don't add your own spin to things.


Ok, fine. Non account holders are never covered by the insurance.


----------



## MattyMikey

uberdriverfornow said:


> It doesnt sound like you understand the difference between a contract and an agreement. The TOS is an agreement not a contract. If it were a contract then it would be an employment contract, but do you think Uber would agree that we are employees ?


You absolutely know nothing. A contract or agreement is same thing. It is a contract. Most contracts are not with employers. Wow. You people never get the facts right.


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> Ok, fine. Non account holders are never covered by the insurance.


Insurance has no relevance on any of this. Where does it mention insurance? No where. Wow.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

MattyMikey said:


> You absolutely know nothing. A contract or agreement is same thing. It is a contract. Most contracts are not with employers. Wow. You people never get the facts right.


You are telling me an agreement is the same thing as a contract and somehow I don't have my facts straight ?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> "Authorized Users" are covered. Not just the account holder. Users riding with the account holder are covered as well as users authorized to ride by the account holder.
> 
> All the unaccompanied minors I've driven have their own account, so they are, in fact, the account holder. And on each ride, I have a waybill with the minor rider's name and the insurance certificate provided by James River. That's my evidence.
> 
> It's up to you to prove that that certificate is null and void.


Geez. No you're way off and sound ridiculous. Go get a job.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Insurance has no relevance on any of this. Where does it mention insurance? No where. Wow.


I'm just not buying that. That would mean if I drive my mom to the doctor's (because she's my mom and not an Uber passenger) she would be covered under Uber's insurance.


----------



## MattyMikey

uberdriverfornow said:


> You are telling me an agreement is the same thing as a contract and somehow I don't have my facts straight ?


Yes an agreement is a contract. There are many forms of contracts. Even verbal ones. There is not just one type of contract. So yes, you don't have your facts straight.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Yes an agreement is a contract. There are many forms of contracts. Even verbal ones. There is not just one type of contract. So yes, you don't have your facts straight.


Great so if the pax broke their contract then why would they possibly be covered? You're telling me they're going to take a 1M hit for you? Please. Go get insurance, stop taking minors and get a job.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> They are only covered if the account holder is in the vehicle with them.
> 
> You have neverd riven an unaccompanied minor who had their own account. Sorry.


Doesn't the waybill list the account holder? If not, who does it list?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Doesn't the waybill list the account holder? If not, who does it list?


Regardless, the parents are going after you and you do not have insurance. Anything else?


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Great so if the pax broke their contract then why would they possibly be covered? You're telling me they're going to take a 1M hit for you? Please. Go get insurance, stop taking minors and get a job.


Yes, even if a passenger breaks their agreement they would still be covered by insurance.

Just like a said many posts ago. Why you think when a person has a DUI insurance companies still pay the claim? Because breaking a contract does not give the grounds to deny the claim.

And I do know what I'm talking about as I have a very good job working in insurance (so better not tell me to get a job like you told other person).

So keep being wrong and giving inaccuracies in everything you say.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Great so if the pax broke their contract then why would they possibly be covered?


The issue isn't really whether the rider is covered, it's whether the driver is covered. If you're saying that when the pax violates the TOS then the driver has no insurance for the ride, that's a big problem. Because you have no way of knowing when a rider gets in your vehicle whether he/she is in compliance with the TOS. I've made this point throughout the thread and it's never been adequately addressed.


----------



## Drago619

We are still on this?? YOU ARE ALL BREAKING 5 STARS TOS LAW BECUASE ABSOLUTELY NONE OF YOU ARE CHECKING IDs..


----------



## 5 Star Guy

It is their fault, not yours but I'm not going by some random person who is well aware at this point that they are not to take a minor alone and does anyway. When I see it in writing that breaking any TOS makes the company file a claim on their insurance policy. I don't buy it, certainly not them.


----------



## MattyMikey

Coachman said:


> The issue isn't really whether the rider is covered, it's whether the driver is covered. If you're saying that when the pax violates the TOS then the driver has no insurance for the ride, that's a big problem. Because you have no way of knowing when a rider gets in your vehicle whether he/she is in compliance with the TOS. I've made this point throughout the thread and it's never been adequately addressed.


Because these "people" think that a rider violating their Rider TOS is enough to alter and change the driver agreement. Even though it has nothing to do with us. And since we're not violating our agreement we would still be okay. But people can't distinguish the two are separate.


----------



## MattyMikey

Drago619 said:


> We are still on this?? YOU ARE ALL BREAKING 5 STARS TOS LAW BECUASE ABSOLUTELY NONE OF YOU ARE CHECKING IDs..


The best post of the day! Thanks for the laugh. I needed it.


----------



## Beur

MattyMikey said:


> If you really want to know this I will research my contract I have with Metromile and let you know. I can't access the policy on phone as it only shows me first page. I don't want to get my laptop out at the moment to look at it in full. But I'm pretty sure they do not cover anything outside period 1. That is reason they don't charge you miles driven for Uber because they are not covering it and are not carrying any risk. *But I have not read theirs yet so I don't want to completely speculate on that. *
> 
> I do know Allstate covers it in fact reduces your deductible in periods 2 and 3 to match your policy deductible with them. Pretty good coverage they offer. But they're expensive as all hell.


Wait you have a pretty good job in the insurance industry but you didn't read your policy with MetroMile to obtain an informed understanding of said policy?

That's amazing!

Any argument you put forth claiming you KNOW what your talking about in regards to insurance is now null and void. There's no way to take you seriously or consider you a trusted source when you admit to not reading your own MeteoMile policy so that you have a understanding of your coverage.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> The issue isn't really whether the rider is covered, it's whether the driver is covered. If you're saying that when the pax violates the TOS then the driver has no insurance for the ride, that's a big problem. Because you have no way of knowing when a rider gets in your vehicle whether he/she is in compliance with the TOS. I've made this point throughout the thread and it's never been adequately addressed.


It has been addressed, it is your job to know everything about your job, including the pax TOS. I don't know of other areas besides this other than the fact that they do not address the need for all drivers to have TNC Gap insurance when doing this job so that they have full insurance, on their own policy.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> The issue isn't really whether the rider is covered, it's whether the driver is covered. If you're saying that when the pax violates the TOS then the driver has no insurance for the ride, that's a big problem. Because you have no way of knowing when a rider gets in your vehicle whether he/she is in compliance with the TOS. I've made this point throughout the thread and it's never been adequately addressed.


Doesn't the waybill list the account holder? If not, who does it list?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

There must be thousands of claims of companies filing insurance claims on their policy, where they shouldn't. Let's see how many you find.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> Doesn't the waybill list the account holder? If not, who does it list?


Not a minor. A minor can't have an account.


----------



## MattyMikey

Beur said:


> Wait you have a pretty good job in the insurance industry but you didn't read your policy with MetroMile to obtain an informed understanding of said policy?
> 
> That's amazing!


I did read it in the beginning but don't remember it verbatim. But I'm 99 percent sure it does not provide it like I said but want to read it again to show it. He wanted the terms to use for others.

But the Metromile works for what I needed at the time. It was only option available in Washington State and I have been doing my due diligence to find a better alternative as others enter the market. So Allstate is available but too cost prohibitive.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> It has been addressed, it is your job to know everything about your job, including the pax TOS. I don't know of other areas besides this other than the fact that they do not address the need for all drivers to have TNC Gap insurance when doing this job so that they have full insurance, on their own policy.


Really? Show me where it says anywhere a driver partner is required to know and follow the rider TOS. Come on this should be easy for you!


----------



## Coachman

MattyMikey said:


> Because these "people" think that a rider violating their Rider TOS is enough to alter and change the driver agreement. Even though it has nothing to do with us. And since we're not violating our agreement we would still be okay. But people can't distinguish the two are separate.


What's really going on here is this. Sometime in the early life of this message board, the topic of minor riders was raised. And some poster who has a lot of likes after his screen name decided that minors aren't covered by insurance since they're in violation of the TOS. And ever since, the smart set on the board, who revere screen names with lots of likes, have repeated this idea in every thread about minors. They take it as gospel without even questioning it. The TOS doesn't say anything about voiding insurance coverage. The partner agreement doesn't say anything about voiding insurance. There's no evidence anywhere that a minor's insurance has ever been voided. But they read it here, so it must be true.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> What's really going on here is this. Sometime in the early life of this message board, the topic of minor riders was raised. And some poster who has a lot of likes after his screen name decided that minors would be covered by insurance since they were in violation of the TOS. And ever since, the smart set on the board, who revere screen names with lots of likes, have repeated this idea in every thread about minors. They take it as gospel without even questioning it. The TOS doesn't say anything about voiding insurance coverage. The partner agreement doesn't say anything about voiding insurance. There's no evidence anywhere that a minor's insurance has ever been voided. But they read it here, so it must be true.


So you should have no problem citing some evidence that shows a non account holder (without the account holder in the vehicle) will be insured.


----------



## MattyMikey

Plus 5 Star says its law.


----------



## Beur

Demon said:


> So you should have no problem citing some evidence that shows a non account holder (without the account holder in the vehicle) will be insured.


That request has been made several times and has remained unanswered


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> So you should have no problem citing some evidence that shows a non account holder (without the account holder in the vehicle) will be insured.


No need to. Anyone that knows about insurance would know it is covered unless specifically excluded. So since it does not mention anything about insurance not being provided, it would be. Plus even if it did, it would not actually hold weight in court.


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> So you should have no problem citing some evidence that shows a non account holder (without the account holder in the vehicle) will be insured.


And I am not citing it shows it will be insured, I am citing it does NOT say they wouldn't be. Big difference.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> No need to. Anyone that knows about insurance would know it is covered unless specifically excluded. So since it does not mention anything about insurance not being provided, it would be. Plus even if it did, it would not actually hold weight in court.


I'm really shocked that these million dollar insurance companies with teams of lawyers leave themselves open like that.

I have insurance to drive my car. If I steal someone else's car and get injured trying to drive away form the cops I must be covered since my policy doesn't expressly say I'm not.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Hello, you better question it, you're going to paying the parents back for the rest of your life. It is your job to know you're job or let me guess, you're a donkey at your other job too. Do your job and get the facts and do your job well. Don't be a donkey.


You really need to stop with your personal attacks. I stopped on you yesterday.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Like I said according to MattyMikey there are thousands of claims from businesses who filed a claim so their premiums go up, just because they are nice. Find them or you have nothing to show but talk.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> And I am not citing it shows it will be insured, I am citing it does NOT say they wouldn't be. Big difference.


Again, I'm totally shocked that million dollar insurance agencies and their teams of lawyers leave themselves open to this & remain in business.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Hello, you better question it, you're going to paying the parents back for the rest of your life. It is your job to know you're job or let me guess, you're a donkey at your other job too. Do your job and get the facts and do your job well. Don't be a donkey.


I have a waybill and an insurance certificate. I'm good.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

It's not an attack, people who don't question it are not doing their job well, I am doing him a favor before he's out thousands for pretending to be ignorant and disregard every fact that we do have in front of us.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Like I said according to MattyMikey there are thousands of claims from businesses who filed a claim so their premiums go up, just because they are nice. Find them or you have nothing to show but talk.


Maybe we need to have a TOS here saying you need to be at least 13 to post.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> I have a waybill and an insurance certificate. I'm good.


Your waybill in that one case is good since we all know they don't do their job. If they did their job they would know the account holder is a minor and has no business holding a credit card in his name. You got lucky, don't count on it next time, although I know that's all you do is cross your fingers.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> It's not an attack, people who don't question it are not doing their job well, I am doing him a favor before he's out thousands for pretending to be ignorant and disregard every fact that we do have in front of us.


Calling him a donkey is rude and personal.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Maybe we need to have a TOS here saying you need to be at least 13 to post.


That and do your homework and know your job, look at your insurance policy and do not believe some company that skirts around everything. For some reason these guys take their word and toss all the facts.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> So you should have no problem citing some evidence that shows a non account holder (without the account holder in the vehicle) will be insured.


When Uber sends me to pick up a rider, and I get a waybill for that trip, I'm covered. It doesn't matter if it's the account holder, or the account holder's husband, or the account holder's neighbor. It doesn't matter if the rider is 99 or 13. It just doesn't matter. The ride, and my butt, are covered.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Sorry if I offended anyone but in my world if you don't take you job seriously, if you don't do what you should do for your job and don't really care when you know the TOS says you can not take minors alone, then tell me what you call that.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> When Uber sends me to pick up a rider, and I get a waybill for that trip, I'm covered. It doesn't matter if it's the account holder, or the account holder's husband, or the account holder's neighbor. It doesn't matter if the rider is 99 or 13. It just doesn't matter. The ride, and my butt, are covered.


Your butt is never covered unless you have TNC Gap insurance. Period.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> That and do your homework and know your job, look at your insurance policy and do not believe some company that skirts around everything. For some reason these guys take their word and toss all the facts.


If you think this company is so shady, why do you believe they'll honor your insurance coverage even with the authorized adult account holder in the car?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> If you think this company is so shady, why do you believe they'll honor your insurance coverage even with the authorized adult account holder in the car?


Hello, that is in the TOS and they are shady. Like I said good luck filing a claim with a 13 year old. Its tough enough to get a straight answer from them like I've said many times on basic questions. Now you want them to foot the bill for something they shouldn't too? Please. Go find all the claims for businesses that file who shouldn't. I don't think there are many so why are they different?


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> When Uber sends me to pick up a rider, and I get a waybill for that trip, I'm covered. It doesn't matter if it's the account holder, or the account holder's husband, or the account holder's neighbor. It doesn't matter if the rider is 99 or 13. It just doesn't matter. The ride, and my butt, are covered.


I'm going to still ask for a cite.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Look what happens with dog bites, the dog owner will say to use your insurance, bye. I know I'm not taking a minor alone and I know I don't believe it until I see it.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> I'm going to still ask for a cite.


That's not the way this works. Uber provides me an electronic waybill with an insurance certificate covering both me and the passenger for that ride. There's no requirement that that passenger be the account holder. It's up to you to prove that that certificate is null and void.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> That's not the way this works. Uber provides me an electronic waybill with an insurance certificate covering both me and the passenger for that ride. There's no requirement that that passenger be the account holder. It's up to you to prove that that certificate is null and void.


It should be null and void in your case but its a computer and the donkeys at the office didn't do their job to know they're dealing with a minor. That doesn't change the facts, just that you choose to get away with it and take a chance, not the britest idea.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> That's not the way this works. Uber provides me an electronic waybill with an insurance certificate covering both me and the passenger for that ride. There's no requirement that that passenger be the account holder. It's up to you to prove that that certificate is null and void.


You keep saying that, but you've shown nothing to prove it.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Funny how the only people arguing and questioning this, have no evidence and want us to show them that they are right.


----------



## thehappytypist

Coachman said:


> No one here has suggested that anybody should take minors or any other passengers with whom they're uncomfortable. What we are suggesting is that people stop popping into these threads declaring that minors are not covered by insurance when they have little or no evidence that that's the case.
> 
> We have CSR responses that say minors are not covered and we have CSR responses that say do what you feel comfortable with. So the only thing to conclude from that is that the CSR's haven't been adequately trained on the matter.


Just confirming, CSRs are NOT well trained in insurance matters. When it comes to that, I wouldn't trust an answer from a CSR to be frank. They likely don't know what they're talking about.

The point of my post was that Uber won't penalize you simply for driving an unaccompanied minor. Insurance is something else entirely.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> You keep saying that, but you've shown nothing to prove it.


I have the waybill. That's proof that I'm covered by insurance.

That waybill is good unless you can demonstrate that it's not.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> I have the waybill. That's proof that I'm covered by insurance.


No, you have a waybill made out to a minor by mistake. That is all you have.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Go to the office, show them the waybill and see what they say when you regularly take minors alone. You'd be all set then.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> I have the waybill. That's proof that I'm covered by insurance.
> 
> That waybill is good unless you can demonstrate that it's not.


Awesome. Show me where the waybill says that if the account holder is not in the vehicle anyone you drive around is covered.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> Awesome. Show me where the waybill says that if the account holder is not in the vehicle anyone you drive around is covered.


Show me where it says if more than one rider get in your vehicle they're both covered. Do you not drive more than one person?


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> Show me where it says if more than one rider get in your vehicle they're both covered. Do you not drive more than one person?


I've never claimed otherwise. You can't seriously expect me to show proof of something I've never said.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> No, you have a waybill made out to a minor by mistake. That is all you have.


How do you know which of your waybills are mistakes and which aren't?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Show me where it says if more than one rider get in your vehicle they're both covered. Do you not drive more than one person?


Geez, go to the office and let them know what you do. Let us know how it goes.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> I've never claimed otherwise. You can't seriously expect me to show proof of something I've never said.


Do you take more than one passenger in your car at a time? If so, how do you now you're covered in the event they're injured?


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Geez, go to the office and let them know what you do. Let us know how it goes.


I notice you couldn't answer the question. Prove to me that multiple passengers are covered. There's only one name on the waybill.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> How do you know which of your waybills are mistakes and which aren't?


Apparently this job is not for you. Account holders can not be minors. You claim to have minors with their own credit card. So figure it out, please, for your sake since you refuse to accept any facts.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Geez, the account holder can take those who fit, wearing a seatbelt and are covered. Its not that tough.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> Do you take more than one passenger in your car at a time? If so, how do you now you're covered in the event they're injured?


Still not my claim.


----------



## MattyMikey

22 pages of this and have come to the same conclusion. 

You can lead the horse to water but you can't make them drink. 

Some people can't understand because of intelligence. Some people won't understand because of stubbornness. Some people won't hear because their deaf. Some won't hear because they have selective hearing. 

I give up on the few people here that just make no sense. And what's worse is they don't even attempt to research. 

So I give up on this forum. Dealing with stupid is not worth the time.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

My thoughts exactly. Facts that I do know speak louder than someone here assuming a lot. People here need facts, do their research and never assume that because a company doesn't care and let's you get away with it today, won't change tomorrow.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> 22 pages of this and have come to the same conclusion.
> 
> You can lead the horse to water but you can't make them drink.
> 
> Some people can't understand because of intelligence. Some people won't understand because of stubbornness. Some people won't hear because their deaf. Some won't hear because they have selective hearing.
> 
> I give up on the few people here that just make no sense. And what's worse is they don't even attempt to research.
> 
> So I give up on this forum. Dealing with stupid is not worth the time.


You can't support your claim so you result to personal attacks.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

MattyMikey said:


> Yes an agreement is a contract. There are many forms of contracts. Even verbal ones. There is not just one type of contract. So yes, you don't have your facts straight.


Contracts are agreements but not all agreements are contracts. We receive no consideration for the TOS from Uber so it's an agreement not a contract. It's that simple. We make our money directly from the rider. We are simply following the TOS agreement that is put in place by Uber.


----------



## Joe Falcone

My3kidsmum said:


> Could someone please explain the policy regarding picking up minor/juveniles that are not accompanied by a guardian ?
> 
> I have had several request recently from high school students that have an account under their name.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your advice.


I've found the account is usually in a parents name and a parents credit card.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

MattyMikey said:


> Yes an agreement is a contract. There are many forms of contracts. Even verbal ones. There is not just one type of contract. So yes, you don't have your facts straight.


https://termsfeed.com/blog/terms-service-agreement/


----------



## uberdriverfornow

With regards to insurance, in CA, the law requires that they have insurance for us during our job with them under specific circumstances. That assures we are covered under the law during periods 1, 2, and 3. Only the law would not allow us to be covered. With that said, this is new water to be treading on. Until it becomes an issue and is resolved in the court it's not so clear, cut, and dry.

It really depends on the details of the law. We only know the general outline.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> You can't support your claim so you result to personal attacks.


The only claim that's been made, starting with post #3 by 5 Star, is that unaccompanied minors aren't covered by insurance. That's the one and only claim that we are discussing. And not one of you can prove that.

Considering that there are tens of thousands of minors riding around in Ubers, you'd think that if they were all uninsured, Uber would be doing something about it. Or more likely, their affluent parents would do something about it once they got wind of it. We drivers might be stupid enough to drive around with inadequate insurance for our personal vehicles. But you don't think Uber's stupid enough to risk that, do you?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Since I was mentioned and I do know the TOS, it's on the driver to know and not assume that your pax are covered. By all means show us but you can't. They don't care, that should be very clear and they do leave it on the driver, just like the lack of insurance as you pointed out. If they weren't shady the TOS and driver agreement would match and there would be full coverage for drivers. I believe we deserve both and not ignore them.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> The only claim that's been made, starting with post #3 by 5 Star, is that unaccompanied minors aren't covered by insurance. That's the one and only claim that we are discussing. And not one of you can prove that.
> 
> Considering that there are tens of thousands of minors riding around in Ubers, you'd think that if they were all uninsured, Uber would be doing something about it. Or more likely, their affluent parents would do something about it once they got wind of it. We drivers might be stupid enough to drive around with inadequate insurance for our personal vehicles. But you don't think Uber's stupid enough to risk that, do you?


Please provide a cite that tens of thousands of unaccompanied minors ride in Ubers.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

That is the point, they are banned off the system and there is no reporting. Now there should be plenty of businesses like them filing claims on their insurance for those who should not have been covered, like unaccompanied minors . I thought that was common too.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> Please provide a cite that tens of thousands of unaccompanied minors ride in Ubers.


Across the United States there are 26,407 public secondary schools and 10,693 private secondary schools (grades 9-12). (Digest of Education Statistics, 2001, Table 89)

If just one minor student from every third high school took an uber each day, that's 12,367 minor rides a day. I think that's a conservative estimate.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Like I said, they're all tossed and their parents can no longer use the app. Still doesn't address how it is your problem or how you can't file a claim with your insurance without TNC Gap coverage.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> Across the United States there are 26,407 public secondary schools and 10,693 private secondary schools (grades 9-12). (Digest of Education Statistics, 2001, Table 89)
> 
> If just one minor student from every third high school took an uber each day, that's 12,367 minor rides a day. I think that's a conservative estimate.


Do you have a cite to back that up, and can you explain what that has to do with proving your claim?


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

uberdriverfornow said:


> The CSR is acting in an official capacity as an agent of Uber so Uber is liable for everything they say in an official capacity. I'm not taking any chances. All minors are going to be politely getting denied service by me from now on. Yes I'm sure they are not going to be happy but I not taking any chances if there is an accident and not having someone covered.


ALL minors? So mom and her 17 year old can't ride with you?

Send the same question 5 times and Uber's CSRs will give 5 different answers. You simply cannot base your decisions on what one person who barely speaks English in the Philippines or India or wherever they are says.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Demon said:


> I'm just not buying that. That would mean if I drive my mom to the doctor's (because she's my mom and not an Uber passenger) she would be covered under Uber's insurance.


Well if you carry ANYONE and it's not through Uber, they're not covered by James River. What's your point?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

There have been about 4 emails that all state the same as the TOS, none of the emails gave different answers though. You can not drive an unaccompanied minor. I'm sure there's a good reason for it.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

5 Star Guy said:


> It has been addressed, it is your job to know everything about your job, including the pax TOS. I don't know of other areas besides this other than the fact that they do not address the need for all drivers to have TNC Gap insurance when doing this job so that they have full insurance, on their own policy.


Knowing the pax TOS doesn't mean you are responsible for enforcing it. Besides, the TOS also says pax shouldn't be rude. If they are, do they suddenly not have insurance?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

If enough drivers complain and their ratings drop they might either not get a driver or banned for being rude. No one has a definitive answer to insurance, plenty of assumptions from those who disregard the TOS. Hmm.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> Do you have a cite to back that up, and can you explain what that has to do with proving your claim?


You still don't understand. I don't have a "claim." I have a waybill. Your claim is that my waybill is no good. Prove it.


----------



## Demon

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Well if you carry ANYONE and it's not through Uber, they're not covered by James River. What's your point?


That is my point.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> You still don't understand. I don't have a "claim." I have a waybill. Your claim is that my waybill is no good. Prove it.


Wrong. That isn't my claim.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> You still don't understand. I don't have a "claim." I have a waybill. Your claim is that my waybill is no good. Prove it.


The point is you can't prove it. You disregard the TOS and you assume a lot. Never a good idea no matter what you're talking about.


----------



## Coachman

Here's an article from Insurance Journal about families letting their kids ride Uber. Why would the insurance experts fail to mention the lack of insurance for these rides? Sloppy reporting?

Insurance Journal


----------



## 5 Star Guy

It's old and your logic continues to be that if 3 people rob a bank, you can join them.


----------



## Coachman

Here's another article from a prominent magazine about kids riding Uber. What's wrong with these reporters missing the big story? They should have consulted this board.

Time Magazine Article


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> It's old and your logic continues to be that if 3 people rob a bank, you can join them.


Well your logic is that robbing a bank is illegal and you'll go to jail, but then can't find a single case in history where anybody robbed a bank and went to jail.


----------



## metal_orion

Uber should make mandatory to show ID's before getting in your car. Sh*t I could be picking up someone who just stole a phone and I don't even know.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

You quoted another outdated article and it is still not allowed. I read the TOS and it says to be prepared to have ID. Imagine that.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

I have the TOS to back me up, all you have are assumptions and breaking the TOS, to back you up.


----------



## Coachman

Here's an article by the Wall Street Journal, no less. And once again zero mention of the insurance risk posed by minor riders.

Uber is the New Family Chauffeur


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Outdated, not allowed. Go to the office tomorrow and just admit no matter what the rules are and that you do not have insurance that you will do it anyway. That would make it so much easier, for all of us. You do not have any facts from them, who you and their parents will be contacting. I suggest like I have, that you find that out before you drive. You might be paying for that trip for the rest of your life.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Interesting article... gist is that the policy is pretty typical.

http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2014/03/25/draft-uber-insurance-policy/


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> You might be paying for that trip for the rest of your life.


This is basically all you've got. Coming to the board and trying to scare people.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

5 Star Guy said:


> You quoted another outdated article and it is still not allowed. I read the TOS and it says to be prepared to have ID. Imagine that.


That's because the app holder is supposed to call and tell you the rider's name if the app holder is ordering for someone else.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Well if I was only scaring people then you should be giving everyone some facts, like I have.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Fuzzyelvis said:


> That's because the app holder is supposed to call and tell you the rider's name if the app holder is ordering for someone else.


Yes but not a minor, alone.


----------



## Coachman

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Interesting article... gist is that the policy is pretty typical.
> 
> http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2014/03/25/draft-uber-insurance-policy/


Well there you have it. It's laid out in black and white. You're covered when you have "passengers.' Or when you're on your way to pick up passengers. Nothing about account holders, authorized users, or minors (either accompanied or unaccompanied.) And nothing about complying with the TOS.

That's it folks. You asked for proof and there it is.

End of thread.


----------



## Drago619

Enough is enough..5 star guy...YOUR NOT AN UBER OFFICIAL! The TOS agreement is with RIDERS! Not DRIVERS! You as a DRIVER are not expected to police uber users. Drivers have a PARTNER agreement which we are expected to follow...you have said the same nonsense for days now and just dont get it..im sure you have already tried to find something in the Partner agreement to back your dumb claims but you have never found it and just keep deflecting to hide the fact...ONE LAST TIME 5 STAR GUY..if you truley beleive your claims you need to stop driving asap because. YOUR NOT CHECKING ANY IDs WHEN YOU PICK UP A RIDER SO YOU TRULEY HAVE NO CLUE WHO YOUR TRANSPORTING!


----------



## Coachman

In case anybody missed it. Here is the actual Uber insurance policy:

Business Auto Declarations - James River Insurance


----------



## elelegido

Coachman said:


> How do you know, when a young person gets in the car, whether they're 21 or 17? If you believe your livelihood is at stake, the only answer you can give me is that you're carding them all.


Easy. If I think they look under 18, they don't get a ride. They will usually protest with "I always do this", " other drivers do it" yada yada. Doesn't matter - ride denied. Some just say "ok", and some say that they are over 18; those are the ones I card. No ID, no ride.

When I had just started Ubering I picked up three drunks without looking at them closely. I got pulled over by the cops. They had wanted to look and see who was in the back. All three turned out to be under 18. The cop told me that I was the adult in charge and that all three minors were out after curfew.

I was at the roadside 20 minutes while the cop phoned each of their mothers in turn to tell them where their kids were.

So... don't take children.


----------



## Coachman

elelegido said:


> So... don't take children.


It's already been settled. Uber allows it. And you are covered by insurance.

If you personally don't feel comfortable driving a 15 y/o, then by all means cancel. I've got no problem with it.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> *It's already been settled. Uber allows it. And you are covered by insurance.*
> 
> If you personally don't feel comfortable driving a 15 y/o, then by all means cancel. I've got no problem with it.


No, you aren't.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

elelegido said:


> Easy. If I think they look under 18, they don't get a ride. They will usually protest with "I always do this", " other drivers do it" yada yada. Doesn't matter - ride denied. Some just say "ok", and some say that they are over 18; those are the ones I card. No ID, no ride.
> 
> When I had just started Ubering I picked up three drunks without looking at them closely. I got pulled over by the cops. They had wanted to look and see who was in the back. All three turned out to be under 18. The cop told me that I was the adult in charge and that all three minors were out after curfew.
> 
> I was at the roadside 20 minutes while the cop phoned each of their mothers in turn to tell them where their kids were.
> 
> So... don't take children.


Insurance or not it is not allowed. Now will they continue to do it anyway, you betcha.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> It's already been settled. Uber allows it. And you are covered by insurance.
> 
> If you personally don't feel comfortable driving a 15 y/o, then by all means cancel. I've got no problem with it.


Great now that you have all the facts, you can now show us where it says it is allowed, I know it is not and where it says they are covered. We can't wait, drumroll please.


----------



## elelegido

Coachman said:


> If you personally don't feel comfortable driving a 15 y/o, then by all means cancel. I've got no problem with it.


It's not really a matter of comfort; to me it's a matter of common sense. And the risk:reward ratio.

But it's good to know I've got the geeen light from you.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Great now that you have all the facts, you can now show us where it says it is allowed, I know it is not and where it says they are covered. We can't wait, drumroll please.


I'll post it for you. Because I know you didn't read through that entire policy like I did.


----------



## Drago619

elelegido said:


> When I had just started Ubering I picked up three drunks without looking at them closely. I got pulled over by the cops. They had wanted to look and see who was in the back. All three turned out to be under 18. The cop told me that I was the adult in charge and that all three minors were out after curfew.
> 
> I was at the roadside 20 minutes while the cop phoned each of their mothers in turn to tell them where their kids were.
> 
> So... don't take children


 more importantly was your driving that got you pulled over..also it seems nothing happen to you becuase you didnt say so and appear to still be driving uber.

Case closed again.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> I'll post it for you. Because I know you didn't read through that entire policy like I did.
> 
> View attachment 30933


Transporting that passenger. That settles that.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

In other words he has nothing to show for it and taking a minor alone is not allowed.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> Transporting that passenger. That settles that.


You asked for proof. You've been shown the actual policy. The policy states you're covered when carrying passengers. There are no qualifications anywhere in the policy about the age of passengers who are covered.

It's over. Give up. Before you all embarrass yourselves.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Ok, since Coachman drives little kids alone all day, I think he should make a note of every account and report it. Let's see how many are tossed off the system.


----------



## elelegido

Drago619 said:


> more importantly was your driving that got you pulled over..also it seems nothing happen to you becuase you didnt say so and appear to still be driving uber.
> 
> Case closed again.


Really? LOL. What specific problem with my driving caused me to be pulled over, according to you?

On that occasion, I lost 20 minutes of my shift. Not a lot, but time is money. There were no other consequences on that occasion, but the point I make is about risk, which doesn't suddenly disappear because in one incident, where I did take kids, my losses were small.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

It does, valid passengers are those adults with kids.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> You asked for proof. You've been shown the actual policy. The policy states you're covered when carrying passengers. There are no qualifications anywhere in the policy about the age of passengers who are covered.
> 
> It's over. Give up. Before you all embarrass yourselves.


The coverage is only for that passenger who has the account. Minors are not able to have accounts. You proved your own self wrong.


----------



## elelegido

Coachman said:


> You asked for proof. You've been shown the actual policy. The policy states you're covered when carrying passengers. There are no qualifications anywhere in the policy about the age of passengers who are covered.
> 
> It's over. Give up. Before you all embarrass yourselves.


I think that the point here is not what Uber says or doesn't say. Or what they allow or don't allow.

If you follow Uber's guidance blindly then you'll be, for example, setting off on 30 minute pickups, offering treats, snacks and drinks to pax and opening their doors for them upon entry and exit to your vehicle. Do you do all those things just because Uber says? No, I didn't think so.

At the end of the day, a sensible driver will make their own decisions; that's all there is to say really.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Demon said:


> The coverage is only for that passenger who has the account. Minors are not able to have accounts. You proved your own self wrong.


Oops. Bingo we have a winner!


----------



## Drago619

Coachman there are new people starting this thread up all over stating the same old bs..you won a long time ago.. 5 star guy will never get the difference between tos and partner agreement...all of you that agree with 5 star guy. Please start checking ids for your own insurance and safety purposes and watch the 1 star ratings start coming through till your deactivated.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Drago619 said:


> Coachman there are new people starting this thread up all over stating the same old bs..you won a long time ago.. 5 star guy will never get the difference between tos and partner agreement...all of you that agree with 5 star guy. Please start checking ids for your own insurance and safety purposes and watch the 1 star ratings start coming through till your deactivated.


If you read the TOS it states to have your ID ready. Stop driving little kids around, alone. It is not allowed.


----------



## Drago619

5 Star Guy said:


> If you read the TOS it states to have your ID ready. Stop driving little kids around, alone. It is not allowed.


like i said.. YOU DONT GET IT...I DONT NEED TO READ THE TOS...IM...A...DRIVERRRRR..
case closed once again..


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Drago619 said:


> like i said.. YOU DONT GET IT...I DONT NEED TO READ THE TOS...IM...A...DRIVERRRRR..
> case closed once again..


You sound like the guys who enjoy taking little kids around, otherwise you would understand it is not allowed and the parents are not aware of the danger or the TOS. Go report each pax and see what they say about taking little kids alone.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> The coverage is only for that passenger who has the account.


It's over. We have the policy now. You lost.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> It's over. We have the policy now. You lost.


It's sick. [And you haven't shown any evidence besides the TOS states no minors alone.] I hope you get busted at this point.


----------



## Coachman




----------



## grayspinner

Because this thread isn't long enough, I thought I'd add this:

My minor kids have credit/debit cards in their own names.


----------



## UberJag

To those of you saying you aren't allowed to pick up anyone but the account holder you are incorrect. Uber gives instructions on how to do this on their app!


----------



## Beur

It would appear the James River Policy is expired. Check out the attachment on this post.

https://uberpeople.net/threads/james-river-insurance-expired-march-1st.65149/

Seems we've all been driving without insurance since March 1, 2016 - go ahead check your latest waybill.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

So funny, I went through everything and I missed the expiration date and the one that states extra pax who don't have a seat belt are covered. Hmm.


----------



## Beachbum in a cornfield

uberdriverfornow said:


> My email to Uber support : "What is the correct policy regarding kids that use their parents app to request a ride ? Do all passengers have to be 18 or old ? Please be as detailed as possible ?"
> 
> Their response two days later : "
> *XXXX *Uber)
> 
> Feb
> 
> Hi
> Thank you for writing in. I'm happy to help.
> 
> Regarding your concern, I'd like to inform you that we do allow our riders to request for another rider. However, as our independent partner, questions such as this are left to your discretion. You are certainly never required to start a trip with a passenger and if you feel uncomfortable with having an underage rider, you may politely cancel the trip. If you completed a trip with a rider that you believe to be under an appropriate age and you'd like us to investigate further, feel free to let us know.
> 
> Please let me know if you have more questions.
> 
> Warm regards,
> 
> *xxxxx*
> help.uber.com"


I got the exact same response....This is entirely done to protect their own litigious rear ends. In other words...."Your on your own" Uber is run by accountants and lawyers expect nothing less from them then this unhelpful crap.


----------



## DriverX

Beachbum in a cornfield said:


> I got the exact same response....This is entirely done to protect their own litigious rear ends. In other words...."Your on your own" Uber is run by accountants and lawyers expect nothing less from them then this unhelpful crap.


Just as I said 25 pages ago. I can't believe U people are still debating this. Don't wanna get sued, don't drive a minor! If the risk is worth the rate then go for it. Look I made $3 and exposed myself to potentially millions of dollars in law suits and jail time. Uber off!


----------



## Coachman

DriverX said:


> Just as I said 25 pages ago. I can't believe U people are still debating this. Don't wanna get sued, don't drive a minor! If the risk is worth the rate then go for it. Look I made $3 and exposed myself to potentially millions of dollars in law suits and jail time. Uber off!


No one on this board can show any driver who's gone to jail for false allegations or who's had his insurance voided after being in an accident with a minor passenger. But you can find countless problems drivers have experienced driving drunks. I'd feel safer driving a HS student over a drunk any day.


----------



## osii

Look boys and girls, this is so simple that I'm going to kill this thread right here and now.

MINORS CANNOT ENTER INTO CONTRACTS.

I could go into long detailed explanation of the laws of torts and contracts, but the simple truth is that anyone under 18 cannot enter into a contract and cannot agree to the TOS. And therefore cannot be a pax.


----------



## Coachman

osii said:


> Look boys and girls, this is so simple that I'm going to kill this thread right here and now.
> 
> MINORS CANNOT ENTER INTO CONTRACTS.
> 
> I could go into long detailed explanation of the laws of torts and contracts, but the simple truth is that anyone under 18 cannot enter into a contract and cannot agree to the TOS. And therefore cannot be a pax.


That has zero to do with your insurance coverage.

If a minor comes onto your property and is injured, your homeowner's insurance provides coverage. If minor gets in your car while you are Ubering, James River provides coverage. Whether there's a parent along for the ride or not. Whether the TOS is being honored or not. The contract is between Uber and James River. The minor would only be a beneficiary in the event of injury.

You're absolutely right that a minor can't be a part of a contract. That might come into play if there were a dispute between the minor and Uber. Uber could not sue the minor over the terms of the contract. But if it was the parents who set up the account and the parents' credit card, then the parents could be sued as a party to the contract.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

I agree that you should still be covered even if you accept a ride with a minor pax but I would fully expect Uber to try to wash their hands from liability because as we've seen time and time again Uber doesn't do anything to help drivers if it means cutting costs so it's really not worth it.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

osii said:


> Look boys and girls, this is so simple that I'm going to kill this thread right here and now.
> 
> MINORS CANNOT ENTER INTO CONTRACTS.
> 
> I could go into long detailed explanation of the laws of torts and contracts, but the simple truth is that anyone under 18 cannot enter into a contract and cannot agree to the TOS. And therefore cannot be a pax.


In case you haven't noticed these guys don't care and enjoy taking little kids around or they would not do it. I do hope they get busted, definitely deserve it.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

There's nothing in the insurance documents that specifically excludes anyone from coverage so everyone is covered while you are in any of the 3 periods. I can't really see why anyone would think that minors are excluded when it doesn't exclude them in any fashion.

Neither does any law that requires Uber to maintain coverage as a TNC rideshare company.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

uberdriverfornow said:


> There's nothing in the insurance documents that specifically excludes anyone from coverage so everyone is covered while you are in any of the 3 periods. I can't really see why anyone would think that minors are excluded when it doesn't exclude them in any fashion.
> 
> Neither does any law that requires Uber to maintain coverage as a TNC rideshare company.


Maybe so, certainly not definitive, yet and no you are not covered unless you have TNC Gap insurance. If you don't know what that is you better find out. No you are not covered in Period 1, that's the problem. CA is different but they now offer the Gap, you need that.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Just for fun, take 6 pax and get in an accident. Would that be covered too since there are only 4 seat belts and the pax are all 8 years old? Someone show me that one.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

5 Star Guy said:


> Maybe so, certainly not definitive, yet and no you are not covered unless you have TNC Gap insurance. If you don't know what that is you better find out. No you are not covered in Period 1, that's the problem. CA is different but they now offer the Gap, you need that.


Here in CA you are covered anytime the app is on. The amount you are covered goes up each time you cross into a higher period


----------



## uberdriverfornow

5 Star Guy said:


> Just for fun, take 6 pax and get in an accident. Would that be covered too since there are only 4 seat belts and the pax are all 8 years old? Someone show me that one.


The insurance says you are covered. It's up to you to prove you are not covered.


----------



## osii

Where did you guys go to law school?


----------



## uberdriverfornow

osii said:


> Where did you guys go to law school?


Nobody needs a law degree to read.


----------



## osii

uberdriverfornow said:


> Uh oh, someones mad they are lose an argument.
> 
> Nobody needs a law degree to read.


If you're going to talk about legal issues you really do need a law degree. And I know for a fact I am correct. So you can blather all you want. I read most of these posts and trust me, most of the people have no idea what they are talking about.

You can read whatever you want. Facts are facts. No minor can enter into any contract. So when that kid gets in your car IT'S ALL ON YOU BRO. They absolutely have no binding contract with uber or lyft.

Legally speaking, they don't even have to pay for the ride. How do you like them apples?


----------



## uberdriverfornow

osii said:


> If you're going to talk about legal issues you really do need a law degree. And I know for a fact I am correct. So you can blather all you want. I read most of these posts and trust me, most of the people have no idea what they are talking about.
> 
> You can read whatever you want. Facts are facts. No minor can enter into any contract. So when that kid gets in your car IT'S ALL ON YOU BRO. They absolutely have no binding contract with uber or lyft.


The contract between Uber and a rider has nothing to do with state mandated coverage.

You are trying to combine two things that are entirely separate.


----------



## osii

Some people, you just can't reach.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

osii said:


> Some people, you just can't reach.


Oh I see. You're right and everyone countering is wrong not because you proved it but because you say you're right.

I get it now.

Anyhow, we both can agree that we are covered atleast in part. Getting past that, if you allege certain pax are not covered then show specific proof that outlines that instead of just saying it is so.

I would have no problem agreeing with you, the problem is that I have yet to see specific exclusions.


----------



## osii

It's painfully obvious you know nothing about the law of contracts or the law of torts. Talking about insurance coverage is all moot.

There is no coverage for a kid in your car. Coverage extends to persons who enter into a contract with you to transport them. Kids cannot enter into that contract.

Jeeeeze!


----------



## osii

And I don't have the time, energy, or inclination to explain the legalities of transporting minors to you or anyone else. If you want to really understand, go to law school.


----------



## Adieu

My3kidsmum said:


> Could someone please explain the policy regarding picking up minor/juveniles that are not accompanied by a guardian ?
> 
> I have had several request recently from high school students that have an account under their name.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your advice.


high schoolers can be 18 or even 19...plausible deniability.

let em know it's not allowed, but they seem cool so ok (but DONT pick up multiple adolescent males), and the exception costs a 5star rating to be submitted before leaving your car ...and that "contributing to delinquency of a minor" is a bona fide crime, so cant drive em anywhere shady


----------



## Coachman

osii said:


> It's painfully obvious you know nothing about the law of contracts or the law of torts. Talking about insurance coverage is all moot.
> 
> There is no coverage for a kid in your car. _Coverage extends to persons who enter into a contract with you to transport them._ Kids cannot enter into that contract.
> 
> Jeeeeze!


Ask a taxi driver on here whether minors are covered in their cabs. I guarantee you they are.


----------



## Stygge

osii said:


> Where did you guys go to law school?


Where did you go to law school? Did you practice law after that or did you become a cabbie directly?


----------



## Stygge

osii said:


> If you're going to talk about legal issues you really do need a law degree. And I know for a fact I am correct. So you can blather all you want. I read most of these posts and trust me, most of the people have no idea what they are talking about.
> 
> You can read whatever you want. Facts are facts. No minor can enter into any contract. So when that kid gets in your car IT'S ALL ON YOU BRO. They absolutely have no binding contract with uber or lyft.
> 
> Legally speaking, they don't even have to pay for the ride. How do you like them apples?


You're right that minors can't enter into contracts. Minors on uber need to use an adult's account. Normally their parents.


----------



## Coachman

A minor doesn't have to enter into a contract to be covered by an insurance policy. A minor riding in a cab is covered by insurance. A minor riding on a bus is covered by insurance. A minor riding in your personal car on the way to a ball game is covered. The contract is between the insured (Uber) and the insurer (James River). Uber has purchased insurance that covers passengers in Uber cars while on Uber trips. There's no requirement that those passengers have a legal contract with Uber.


----------



## MattyMikey

grayspinner said:


> Because this thread isn't long enough, I thought I'd add this:
> 
> My minor kids have credit/debit cards in their own names.


Exactly. I had a debit card when I was a minor years ago!!

My dog (seriously) had a PayPal MasterCard.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> A minor doesn't have to enter into a contract to be covered by an insurance policy. A minor riding in a cab is covered by insurance. A minor riding on a bus is covered by insurance. A minor riding in your personal car on the way to a ball game is covered. The contract is between the insured (Uber) and the insurer (James River). Uber has purchased insurance that covers passengers in Uber cars while on Uber trips. There's no requirement that those passengers have a legal contract with Uber.


It is sad. Those are examples where a minor is allowed. Now try for once an example where a minor is not allowed and covered. That at least would be helpful and useful here. For the record I never read anything that said they were covered besides the few here who regularly take minors and don't care.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Those are examples where a minor is allowed. Now try for once an example where a minor is not allowed and covered. That at least would be helpful and useful here.


If Uber didn't allow minors to ride, I wouldn't be getting all these pings from minors. Uber knows they're riding and gladly takes their money. You know that's true, because you're a big Uber cynic.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> If Uber didn't allow minors to ride, I wouldn't be getting all these pings from minors. Uber knows they're riding and gladly takes their money. You know that's true, because you're a big Uber cynic.


People rob banks too. You lack any logic so I take it when they catch on and update the Partner agreement, you'll probably take a chance and ignore it, again.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Coachman said:


> I'll post it for you. Because I know you didn't read through that entire policy like I did.
> 
> View attachment 30933


I read it too. Can't understand why everyone was saying it was so hard to find. Took 30 seconds on google.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> People rob banks too.


Banks aren't encouraging bank robbers.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Banks aren't encouraging bank robbers.


No one is encouraging anything. Parents are breaking the TOS and most likely aren't aware of it. There isn't any advertising on it that says toss your kid alone in a car where now there are a ton of sexual assault complaints against us, for $5.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Coachman said:


> A minor doesn't have to enter into a contract to be covered by an insurance policy. A minor riding in a cab is covered by insurance. A minor riding on a bus is covered by insurance. A minor riding in your personal car on the way to a ball game is covered. The contract is between the insured (Uber) and the insurer (James River). Uber has purchased insurance that covers passengers in Uber cars while on Uber trips. There's no requirement that those passengers have a legal contract with Uber.


If a contract was required then (yes, this is an absurd example) if you hit another car then the insurance wouldn't cover the other car or occupants of said car since THEY don't have a contract with Uber.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

You have a contract if you are a pax of theirs. Someone who street hails does not have a contract. If a Lyft pax gets in your car, the wrong car since you don't work for them and you get rear ended like at the airport, you are screwed.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> You have a contract if you are a pax of theirs. Someone who street hails does not have a contract. If a Lyft pax gets in your car, the wrong car since you don't work for them and you get rear ended like at the airport, you are screwed.


If you're in phase 2 or phase 3 you and your passengers are covered by Uber's insurance.


----------



## The Admiral

I've had this happen once. A mother sending her son with me to a school event. Next time I'll cancel.


----------



## The Admiral

How about this: Account holder loads 4 people into your car and says take them to Joe's Bar and come back for 3 more of us. You get paid for both directions of travel but you are violating the rules by not having the account holder in the first load.


----------



## fork2323

This thread is to lame to read it all.. if it surges 2X take the trip. Don't ask age, no problem, get paid.. if this has been said already my apologies


----------



## JaredJ

Michguy01 said:


> So now we gotta check id's too!!!!!!!! SMDH


The earliest a student can get a High School Checking Account is 14 (Chase Bank). Parent is a mandatory cosigner on the account. These accounts allow debit cards in the students name (much lower customized daily limits). That's not the issue. The issue is whether we have a legal right to ask for identification before providing service if they decline to state their age.


----------



## Coachman

JaredJ said:


> The issue is whether we have a legal right to ask for identification before providing service if they decline to state their age.


You're not legally bound to transport anyone you're uncomfortable with. If you feel someone is too young to be in your car, by all means decline the ride.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

JaredJ said:


> The earliest a student can get a High School Checking Account is 14 (Chase Bank). Parent is a mandatory cosigner on the account. These accounts allow debit cards in the students name (much lower customized daily limits). That's not the issue. The issue is whether we have a legal right to ask for identification before providing service if they decline to state their age.


Presumably because they agree to it by default in their TOS. It tells them to be prepared to show ID.


----------



## MattyMikey

JaredJ said:


> The earliest a student can get a High School Checking Account is 14 (Chase Bank). Parent is a mandatory cosigner on the account. These accounts allow debit cards in the students name (much lower customized daily limits). That's not the issue. The issue is whether we have a legal right to ask for identification before providing service if they decline to state their age.


Or the parents can get them a Visa Buxx card too.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> You're not legally bound to transport anyone you're uncomfortable with. If you feel someone is too young to be in your car, by all means decline the ride.


I like how the people who like to take little kids alone have a way around the system. Sick.


----------



## Coachman

Okay 5 Star. Suppose you're driving a passenger in phase 3 and strike a child riding his bike on the road. Does your James River insurance cover the injuries to that child?


----------



## Tequila Jake

osii said:


> If you're going to talk about legal issues you really do need a law degree. And I know for a fact I am correct. So you can blather all you want. I read most of these posts and trust me, most of the people have no idea what they are talking about.
> 
> You can read whatever you want. Facts are facts. No minor can enter into any contract. So when that kid gets in your car IT'S ALL ON YOU BRO. They absolutely have no binding contract with uber or lyft.
> 
> Legally speaking, they don't even have to pay for the ride. How do you like them apples?


There is never a contract between the rideshare driver and rider. The rider's contract (invalid in the case of a minor) is with the TNC. The driver's contract is with the TNC. There is nothing in the driver contract about rider qualifications except that we're free to accept or reject any ride.


----------



## Tequila Jake

Coachman said:


> Okay 5 Star. Suppose you're driving a passenger in phase 3 and strike a child riding his bike on the road. Does your James River insurance cover the injuries to that child?


Yes, unless the damages are over $1 million.


----------



## osii

Suffice it to say, I have a law degree. I don't practice. When I graduated in '99, I had an IP company and was making tripple what lawyers were making at the time. So there. You have my bonafides.

Still doesn't change the facts that minors can't enter into contracts, and the rideshare TOS prohibits minors and therefore the insurance doesn't kick in.

Also, we are not bus drivers or cab drivers. They are different animals and more akin to a public utility and they have way more insurance and regulation than we will ever have.



Stygge said:


> Where did you go to law school? Did you practice law after that or did you become a cabbie directly?


----------



## The Admiral

Coachman said:


> A minor doesn't have to enter into a contract to be covered by an insurance policy. A minor riding in a cab is covered by insurance. A minor riding on a bus is covered by insurance. A minor riding in your personal car on the way to a ball game is covered. The contract is between the insured (Uber) and the insurer (James River). Uber has purchased insurance that covers passengers in Uber cars while on Uber trips. There's no requirement that those passengers have a legal contract with Uber.


Wouldn't it be great to read the contract between Uber and the Insurer to know if that is the case? I think you have the correct take on this but to be sure the contract would clear it up.


----------



## Coachman

Tequila Jake said:


> Yes, unless the damages are over $1 million.


I'm waiting for 5 Star to answer that one.


----------



## Coachman

The Admiral said:


> Wouldn't it be great to read the contract between Uber and the Insurer to know if that is the case? I think you have the correct take on this but to be sure the contract would clear it up.


James River Insurance Policy for 2014


----------



## Coachman

osii said:


> Still doesn't change the facts that minors can't enter into contracts, and the rideshare TOS prohibits minors and therefore the insurance doesn't kick in.


When you put any passenger in your vehicle, how do you know whether he's in compliance with the TOS?


----------



## Stygge

osii said:


> Suffice it to say, I have a law degree. I don't practice. When I graduated in '99, I had an IP company and was making tripple what lawyers were making at the time. So there. You have my bonafides.
> 
> Still doesn't change the facts that minors can't enter into contracts, and the rideshare TOS prohibits minors and therefore the insurance doesn't kick in.
> 
> Also, we are not bus drivers or cab drivers. They are different animals and more akin to a public utility and they have way more insurance and regulation than we will ever have.


I'm sorry your career took a turn for the worse.


----------



## osii

Stygge said:


> I'm sorry your career took a turn for the worse.


So am I. I wish I had saved some of that money instead of partying all over europe and the west coast for 8 years.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

The coverage is not blanket liability. You need to read the fine print and stop for once assuming everything. Your only defense is your assumptions. The max as Tequila Jake above is 1M. So your car has a $1K deduction, your car insurance is not covered, your medical bills are not covered. So you need to figure out what part of that $1M they claim is actually paid for a death, medical and property, at a minimum that I can think of. They don't just write a check, they don't want to pay anything.


----------



## osii

I tell ya what. When you actually think about all the risks you take doing rideshare; 1) anyone who owns a home or anything of value is insane to do this; 2) I've really been considering getting commercial insurance and buying a nice used BMW750 or Suburban and doing my own livery biz and using RS strictly as a lead generator.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

osii said:


> I tell ya what. When you actually think about all the risks you take doing rideshare; 1) anyone who owns a home or anything of value is insane to do this; 2) I've really been considering getting commercial insurance and buying a nice used BMW750 or Suburban and doing my own livery biz and using RS strictly as a lead generator.


I agree, you just need to run it completely as a business and not as an independent contractor. That's full insurance, workers comp, LLC, everything needs to be thorough and complete, some here cut corners trying to sneak in between an independent contractor and business. It's one or the other and you need to know the expenses. Then you have your rates and salary. There are livery in Boston now, I think a step above this but it would need to be full time and worthwhile.


----------



## DriverX

Coachman said:


> No one on this board can show any driver who's gone to jail for false allegations or who's had his insurance voided after being in an accident with a minor passenger. But you can find countless problems drivers have experienced driving drunks. I'd feel safer driving a HS student over a drunk any day.


But which one would you rather be accused of sexual assault by? this is the RISK factor that none of you low info drivers seem to understand. It's a HUGE part of your expense doing this job.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

I can't wait for them to get deactivated. We did our best to inform them. They'll be back to delivering Chinese food.


----------



## Stygge

DriverX said:


> But which one would you rather be accused of sexual assault by? this is the RISK factor that none of you low info drivers seem to understand. It's a HUGE part of your expense doing this job.


Why do you insist on assaulting your riders? That's not nice. If you can't control yourself, yes I agree assaulting drunks may be better.


----------



## osii

"No one on this board can show any driver who's gone to jail for false allegations or who's had his insurance voided after being in an accident with a minor passenger. But you can find countless problems drivers have experienced driving drunks. I'd feel safer driving a HS student over a drunk any day."

You're not looking hard enough. there are tons of stories about guys losing their insurance and getting busted financially because they got in a wreck and uber wouldn't cover anything and their own insurance backed out.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

osii said:


> "No one on this board can show any driver who's gone to jail for false allegations or who's had his insurance voided after being in an accident with a minor passenger. But you can find countless problems drivers have experienced driving drunks. I'd feel safer driving a HS student over a drunk any day."
> 
> You're not looking hard enough. there are tons of stories about guys losing their insurance and getting busted financially because they got in a wreck and uber wouldn't cover anything and their own insurance backed out.


Oh no, you're going to ruin it for these poor people. They'll be making deliveries every ten minutes soon.


----------



## Coachman

osii said:


> You're not looking hard enough. there are tons of stories about guys losing their insurance and getting busted financially because they got in a wreck and uber wouldn't cover anything and their own insurance backed out.


Tons of stories? Why don't you give us just one example so we can examine the circumstances of the case?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Tons of stories? Why don't you give us just one example so we can examine the circumstances of the case?


Let me get this straight, since I really don't believe it, you won't take little kids alone if they put that on the driver's agreement? I'll deliver Chinese food Friday if you pledge that, even though we both know parents will not be aware of the TOS.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Let me get this straight, since I really don't believe it, you won't take little kids alone if they put that on the driver's agreement?


I've never taken a "little kid" riding alone. I've taken quite a few 17 y/o's.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

I'm tempted to call James River myself and ask them what the details are. Has anyone else thought of doing this ?


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Let me get this straight, since I really don't believe it, you won't take little kids alone if they put that on the driver's agreement? I'll deliver Chinese food Friday if you pledge that, even though we both know parents will not be aware of the TOS.


I would make this pledge. If the DRIVER agreement states can't take an unaccompanied minor I would follow it. Because I honor my agreements with the company. But I'm not obligated to know or follow the RIDER TOS and therefore will not. And I personally don't take "kids either" I only take teenagers who are no younger than 16 but could be up to 18. I don't care. Not my job. Also not in the agreement.


----------



## Stygge

uberdriverfornow said:


> I'm tempted to call James River myself and ask them what the details are. Has anyone else thought of doing this ?


I think that is a good idea. It shouldn't be necessary but as we see ppl have the wildest ideas about how insurance coverage works. Do they have a phone? Maybe we should direct all uber questions to them until uber get their own phone.


----------



## MattyMikey

Stygge said:


> I think that is a good idea. It shouldn't be necessary but as we see ppl have the wildest ideas about how insurance coverage works. Do they have a phone? Maybe we should direct all uber questions to them until uber get their own phone.


Due to confidentiality they likely not going to tell you anything since their customer (the insured) is Uber. Just be expecting to not get them to tell you anything. They may be able to discuss coverages on a "broad term" but not their specific policy details.


----------



## Coachman

You have to remember what insurance is for. It's not insurance covering the riders. It's insurance covering Uber's liability in the case of accidents... both for property and personal injury. And by extension it covers our liability as Uber's agents. That's why the "insured" party is not the rider, it's Uber. This insurance is meant, in large part, to protect us from lawsuits. It would be kind of silly for Uber's liability insurance not to extend to all passengers. Because if a minor is injured while using the service, they will certainly sue Uber and win, whether they are an authorized user or not. Well they would win except that Uber would settle first. It's just not in Uber's interest to deny coverage to minors.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Just for fun, take 6 pax and get in an accident. Would that be covered too since there are only 4 seat belts and the pax are all 8 years old? Someone show me that one.


It depends on the nature and extent of your coverage. If you're driving with the minimum state-required liability insurance, then no, your passengers would not be covered. You would need collision, comprehensive, medical and uninsured motorist coverage to make sure your passengers are fully covered. Cramming six passengers into your car won't void your insurance. Many accidents are the result of improper or even illegal driving. Running a stop sign is illegal. You're still covered. If you're texting while driving, you're covered. But by breaking the law, you will be found at fault for the accident. Many insurance policies will even cover DUI/DWIs.


----------



## Drago619

According to all the dumb claims by several of you about only the account holder being covered...im sure its safe to say you are all breaking ur said rule, because im 100% positive that none of you are only taking one passenger at a time and kicking out every extra passenger that is accompanied by the account holder...Ubers coverage for drivers is contingent on the type of insurance policy the driver has. it covers everything on top of what you as a driver have. if you have collision and comprehensive, then while transporting a passenger uber matches your policy coverage and raises it. if you do not have collision and comprehensive then uber does not just give you this coverage. this is how people think they are getting screwed by uber if uber doesnt pay up for an accident. everyone must have the bare minimum coverage auto insurance..bodily injury, property damage and so on. uber covers 1 million on that. this is why they only require proof of insurance and do not check what coverage you actually have. so if you cause an accident while transporting a passenger, you better have collision coverage on your policy if your expecting uber to pay up for repairs. none of this has to do with who you are transporting.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Drago619 said:


> According to all the dumb claims by several of you about only the account holder being covered...im sure its safe to say you are all breaking ur said rule, because im 100% positive that none of you are only taking one passenger at a time and kicking out every extra passenger that is accompanied by the account holder...Ubers coverage for drivers is contingent on the type of insurance policy the driver has. it covers everything on top of what you as a driver have. if you have collision and comprehensive, then while transporting a passenger uber matches your policy coverage and raises it. if you do not have collision and comprehensive then uber does not just give you this coverage. this is how people think they are getting screwed by uber if uber doesnt pay up for an accident. everyone must have the bare minimum coverage auto insurance..bodily injury, property damage and so on. uber covers 1 million on that. this is why they only require proof of insurance and do not check what coverage you actually have. so if you cause an accident while transporting a passenger, you better have collision coverage on your policy if your expecting uber to pay up for repairs. none of this has to do with who you are transporting.


That's not entirely accurate though. First CA just passed a law protecting drivers a little more than before the law passed. TNC Gap insurance is now available in CA and it is required to be fully covered. You are not covered without that so Google it or check on here for it. Their coverage is a max of 1M and I'm sure they have a list of how much they are paying and for what. You assume its a check for 1M. I think their theory is with a pax in your car you're less likely to get in an accident. 1M goes fast so you should expect to pay out of your own pocket and now they say you should increase your own insurance since there is more risk. Do not assume your insurance will cover you, it doesn't.


----------



## CROWBOY

I was uncomfortable about driving minors and worried about it until someone pointed something out to me. The passenger's TOS states about all the stuff that's mentioned in thread, but our partner agreement states nothing about enforcing that rule on our end. Uber is fully responsible for this and it's at our discretion to enforce their TOS for the passengers. We're a third party, so by allowing someone under the age of 18 to have an account or by a passenger allowing someone under the age of 18 to use their account places all the blame on the passenger account holder, not you. Not trying to justify it, but it makes sense if you read both the passenger and partner agreements in conjunction.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

CROWBOY said:


> I was uncomfortable about driving minors and worried about it until someone pointed something out to me. The passenger's TOS states about all the stuff that's mentioned in thread, but our partner agreement states nothing about enforcing that rule on our end. Uber is fully responsible for this and it's at our discretion to enforce their TOS for the passengers. We're a third party, so by allowing someone under the age of 18 to have an account or by a passenger allowing someone under the age of 18 to use their account places all the blame on the passenger account holder, not you. Not trying to justify it, but it makes sense if you read both the passenger and partner agreements in conjunction.


The point really is technically you're right, however you are aware of it and you are by no means protected, the parents are going after you and you'll be in the news and sued.


----------



## CROWBOY

5 Star Guy said:


> The point really is technically you're right, however you are aware of it and you are by no means protected, the parents are going after you and you'll be in the news and sued.


They can sue all they want, it'll get thrown out because they violated the TOS and Uber is providing the leads which obviously should be 18 and over. I don't do it anyways, but I ask them their name and if they're over 18. If I'm suspicious, I send an email to Uber. There is no law putting anyone in danger of losing a lawsuit.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

People can sue you for anything, it doesn't mean they will win. I just know that we all know the TOS states no minors alone and I expect drivers on here who are aware of that to follow that and hope you get deactivated if you don't.


----------



## CROWBOY

5 Star Guy said:


> People can sue you for anything, it doesn't mean they will win. I just know that we all know the TOS states no minors alone and I expect drivers on here who are aware of that to follow that and hope you get deactivated if you don't.


The passenger agreement says that, not the partner. It's not grounds for deactivation. Email Uber and they'll tell you that.


----------



## CROWBOY

Again, I'm not condoning it, but there isn't much you can do about it.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

CROWBOY said:


> The passenger agreement says that, not the partner. It's not grounds for deactivation. Email Uber and they'll tell you that.


When they do change that and don't notify drivers, I do hope drivers who take minors alone get deactivated and banned off the system, especially those here who are aware of the issue. Anyone looking for a loophole to take a kid around is sick.


----------



## CROWBOY

5 Star Guy said:


> When they do change that and don't notify drivers, I do hope drivers who take minors alone get deactivated and banned off the system, especially those here who are aware of the issue. Anyone looking for a loophole to take a kid around is sick.


I don't go around looking to pickup minors, but there is no law about it and there are some instances where a 17 year old could pass for someone much older. Unless your carding or canceling rides, but carding only works if the ID is valid.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

CROWBOY said:


> I don't go around looking to pickup minors, but there is no law about it and there are some instances where a 17 year old could pass for someone much older. Unless your carding or canceling rides, but carding only works if the ID is valid.


I think my point and issue is clear. When they change the Partner agreement I hope those drivers get banned. The pax TOS states to have ID if asked.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Anyone looking for a loophole to take a kid around is sick.


Statements like this are why you have no credibility here. Nobody is looking for loopholes to "take a kid around." We're doing our jobs. We get a ping. We drive to the destination. And the rider Uber has hooked us up with is a minor teenager. Usually a high school kid going home from school. The other week I drove a high school senior from her school to a doctor appointment. Maybe you can tell us what's "sick" about that.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

It's sick on many levels, like how you are that desperate to take minors and not find other pax.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

5 Star Guy said:


> It's sick on many levels, like how you are that desperate to take minors and not find other pax.


You gave completely discredited yourself now. You seem to think anyone who picks up a minor is a pedophile. That's just insulting.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Fuzzyelvis said:


> You gave completely discredited yourself now. You seem to think anyone who picks up a minor is a pedophile. That's just insulting.


No, I am making a point of the reason the Rider TOS states that. People here, like anywhere else will do what they want. I'm making others aware of the rule and what drivers need to be aware of and actually now that you mention it, parents need to be made aware of it so thank you.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

5 Star Guy said:


> No, I am making a point of the reason the Rider TOS states that. People here, like anywhere else will do what they want. I'm making others aware of the rule and what drivers need to be aware of and actually now that you mention it, parents need to be made aware of it so thank you.


How is "sick on many levels" about "making others aware of the rule"? EVEN if it WAS in the drivers TOS that doesn't make sense.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Fuzzyelvis said:


> How is "sick on many levels" about "making others aware of the rule"? EVEN if it WAS in the drivers TOS that doesn't make sense.


A minor is a minor. It doesn't matter how old a minor is. Wanting or willing to take a minor alone is sick. It only says I need the money so I'll do it or I like it. You need to think of other drivers doing it you don't know and you don't really know anyone on here for that matter. When parents start to catch on or they change the agreement, without letting drivers know it's now included, you'll see who continues to do it. Sick.


----------



## El Janitor

So....they really have no comment about their own policy.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> It's sick on many levels, like how you are that desperate to take minors and not find other pax.


You're just embarrassing yourself now.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> You're just embarrassing yourself now.


Actually you have a ton of posts people see you insisting on taking minors alone, since you found a loophole. You should be embarrassed.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Actually you have a ton of posts people see you insisting on taking minors alone, since you found a loophole. You should be embarrassed.


Considering how many young teens I see riding around in Ubers to and from school, I hardly think I'm in the minority here. But I've got a question. How would the average Uber driver know there was anything wrong with taking a HS student, if he weren't a member of this board? There's nothing about it in any of Uber's training videos. There's nothing on the app. There's nothing in the partner agreement. There's nothing about it anywhere, except for posts by a handful of people in this forum.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Considering how many young teens I see riding around in Ubers to and from school, I hardly think I'm in the minority here. But I've got a question. How would the average Uber driver know there was anything wrong with taking a HS student, if he weren't a member of this board? There's nothing about it in any of Uber's training videos. There's nothing on the app. There's nothing in the partner agreement. There's nothing about it anywhere, except for posts by a handful of people in this forum.


So which is it? Besides embarrassing yourself, again you chose to be like those drivers who give drivers like me a bad reputation by being ignorant, desperate for money to take those pax you know you shouldn't or you simply could care less? The only right answer is, which is my point, now that you realize they have that rule in place for safety, you don't need the money and you will be happy to let a minor know next time it's not allowed, cancel the ride and report it. There's only one right answer so I hope you can catch on.


----------



## MattyMikey

Wow. I've seen 5 posts from 5 Star Guy where he hasn't mentioned you need TNC Gap Insurance. Maybe he is finally evolving slowly to not repeat himself with the same rhetoric and scare tactics?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Wow. I've seen 5 posts from 5 Star Guy where he hasn't mentioned you need TNC Gap Insurance. Maybe he is finally evolving slowly to not repeat himself with the same rhetoric and scare tactics?


Funny, there is no scare tactics, you do need that insurance. They do not cover you for medical or car rental, at a minimum. Keep it up though.


----------



## MattyMikey

I'm actually getting personal enjoyment watching your messages and replies. You give me a good laugh.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> I'm actually getting personal enjoyment watching your messages and replies. You give me a good laugh.


Same. I hope WA gets that insurance before you do get screwed in an accident.


----------



## PinCoUberDriver

Interestingly enough, I got a request for pickup today by a 4.5 rated account holder. Surge was 2.2, pickup was a good area, so I figured I'd roll up and check it out. After waiting a couple of minutes in front of the house, 3 clearly under 18 children headed to the car. I rolled my window down and asked if anyone was over 18, all looked shocked and said no. I asked, "Who is the account holder?" They pointed back to the house. I asked if he was coming, and they said "No." I replied, sorry, can't do this pickup. Canceled and reported to Uber.

Uber support representative called me tonight to get more information on the incident. I explained the situation and was thanked for being aware of the Uber policy and handling the situation exactly correctly. I suspect the account holder won't have an account much longer.

My take away from all this is that I won't knowingly transport minors that are not traveling with an adult. Multiple risks are involved and it isn't worth it in my opinion. No TNC gap insurance available yet in my market, so wouldn't be prudent, not gonna do it.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

PinCoUberDriver said:


> Interestingly enough, I got a request for pickup today by a 4.5 rated account holder. Surge was 2.2, pickup was a good area, so I figured I'd roll up and check it out. After waiting a couple of minutes in front of the house, 3 clearly under 18 children headed to the car. I rolled my window down and asked if anyone was over 18, all looked shocked and said no. I asked, "Who is the account holder?" They pointed back to the house. I asked if he was coming, and they said "No." I replied, sorry, can't do this pickup. Canceled and reported to Uber.
> 
> Uber support representative called me tonight to get more information on the incident. I explained the situation and was thanked for being aware of the Uber policy and handling the situation exactly correctly. I suspect the account holder won't have an account much longer.
> 
> My take away from all this is that I won't knowingly transport minors that are not traveling with an adult. Multiple risks are involved and it isn't worth it in my opinion. No TNC gap insurance available yet in my market, so wouldn't be prudent, not gonna do it.


Great post. Not sure why something that simple is that difficult for some people.


----------



## Drago619

PinCoUberDriver said:


> My take away from all this is that I won't knowingly transport minors that are not traveling with an adult. Multiple risks are involved and it isn't worth it in my opinion. No TNC gap insurance available yet in my market, so wouldn't be prudent, not gonna do it.[/QUOTE
> 
> Wow somebody fell for 5 stars bs..
> 3 sober healthy young gentleman on a 2.2 surge coming from home..you lost out on a nice ride..next time you wanna cancel just cancel. Dont go reporting perfectly good riders to uber and trying to get their accounts cancelled. Dont punish them for having bad luck by having you pull up to pick them up. We need more users not less...and one last thing..IF YOU BELEIVE THE TOS HYPE, THEN HOW WOULD HAVING TNC GAP INSURANCE CHANGE ANYTHING...i mean.. it wouldnt change them from minors to adult account holders once they entered your car would it?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Apparently, there are drivers on here who shouldn't be driving. It is not BS. It isn't bad luck, you're a bad independent contractor who shouldn't be driving. Need more users, you're not serious are you, maybe you should deliver Chinese food instead. The TOS is a fact, it is not hype. Having TNC Gap insurance protects you when you do get in an accident. Not taking minors protects minors and you. It isn't that difficult a concept to grasp, well I guess it is in your case. One has nothing to do with the other, allegedly, maybe even apparently, not that you care. Don't drive, we don't need drivers like you giving us a bad reputation.


----------



## PinCoUberDriver

4.5 rating is not perfectly good, not even close in my book. That is one of the lowest ratings I've seen in this area -- lowest being 4.2, which I didn't bother with.

2.2 in my market is a whopping $1.43/mile and $0.24/minute. Given their ages and the location, I'd bet this was a short hop.

I am not judgement proof and have assets to protect, so RISK evaluation and Insurance coverage are important to me. Uber thinks I did the correct thing and I'm comfortable with my decision.

Also, where did I say 3 gentlemen? It was 2 boys and 1 girl.

You evaluate your risks, I'll take care of mine. Just thought I'd share my story since Uber shockingly weighed in. Also, I was asked if I had any other information or questions, so I took the opportunity to tell the rep to get those base rates raised


----------



## 5 Star Guy

PinCoUberDriver said:


> 4.5 rating is not perfectly good, not even close in my book. That is one of the lowest ratings I've seen in this area -- lowest being 4.2, which I didn't bother with.
> 
> 2.2 in my market is a whopping $1.43/mile and $0.24/minute. Given their ages and the location, I'd bet this was a short hop.
> 
> I am not judgement proof and have assets to protect, so RISK evaluation and Insurance coverage are important to me. Uber thinks I did the correct thing and I'm comfortable with my decision.
> 
> Also, where did I say 3 gentlemen? It was 2 boys and 1 girl.
> 
> You evaluate your risks, I'll take care of mine. Just thought I'd share my story since Uber shockingly weighed in. Also, I was asked if I had any other information or questions, so I took the opportunity to tell the rep to get those base rates raised


Don't bother with these drivers, we need more people like you, here and on the road. Welcome.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Apparently, there are drivers on here who shouldn't be driving. It is not BS. It isn't bad luck, you're a bad independent contractor who shouldn't be driving. Need more users, you're not serious are you, maybe you should deliver Chinese food instead. The TOS is a fact, it is not hype. Having TNC Gap insurance protects you when you do get in an accident. Not taking minors protects minors and you. It isn't that difficult a concept to grasp, well I guess it is in your case. One has nothing to do with the other, allegedly, maybe even apparently, not that you care. Don't drive, we don't need drivers like you giving us a bad reputation.


Yet you liked the post but yet you respond with your typical rhetoric. You have no idea what you're talking about. Your stance changes more than my dog goes potty.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> View attachment 31513
> 
> Yet you liked the post but yet you respond with your typical rhetoric. You have no idea what you're talking about. Your stance changes more than my dog goes potty.


My bad, I thought you wrote that. I unliked it for the record. There is no rhetoric, I do know exactly what I'm talking about and no I never changed my stance. At least I give you credit for changing your attitude, when they do change the driver agreement. Geez, wrong is wrong no matter what you say.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> My bad, I thought you wrote that. I unliked it for the record. There is no rhetoric, I do know exactly what I'm talking about and no I never changed my stance. At least I give you credit for changing your attitude, when they do change the driver agreement. Geez, wrong is wrong no matter what you say.


But you also agreed that if that assurance was made you would go deliver Chinese food. So I guess you can't keep a deal?


----------



## Stygge

MattyMikey said:


> View attachment 31513
> 
> Yet you liked the post but yet you respond with your typical rhetoric. You have no idea what you're talking about. Your stance changes more than my dog goes potty.


Ha ha. I saw that too and I have even blocked the 5 star guy!


----------



## MattyMikey

Stygge said:


> Ha ha. I saw that too and I have even blocked the 5 star guy!


I would block him but for some reason I really get a great laugh. Like watching the Simpsons. Where you think in real life nobody could be so clueless. Reminds me of Homer. LOL


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Allegedly. I'll eat Chinese food, until It's proven and then I'll work delivering it for a day. I feel bad for Stygge, hope he doesn't get screwed in an accident or accused of anything.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> I would block him but for some reason I really get a great laugh. Like watching the Simpsons. Where you think in real life nobody could be so clueless. Reminds me of Homer. LOL


Definitely not clueless, all of my posts are fact. If anything I should be blocking you people who are wrong but it's fun seeing you embarrass yourselves on here. I feel sorry for you guys at this point. Sad really, but I enjoy it.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Don't bother with these drivers, we need more people like you, here and on the road. Welcome.


It's funny. Somebody comes into the thread and makes one post that you are sympathetic with and suddenly that guy is your new best friend. It's kind of sad.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> It's funny. Somebody comes into the thread and makes one post that you are sympathetic with and suddenly that guy is your new best friend. It's kind of sad.


Sad is you wanting to take minors, alone. Keep it up though, 31 pages and you still don't get it. Talk about giving drivers a bad reputation. Geez.


----------



## Coachman

Since you think you're on such a roll here, why don't you tackle this little conundrum. When you're driving non-Uber passengers with your personal insurance coverage, are there any exceptions to that coverage, other than those _explicitly_ stated in the policy?

For instance, we know most insurance policies don't cover rideshare driving. But if you look at those policies, you'll _always_ see a written exception, such as the following....

_We do not provide coverage &#8230; arising out of the ownership or operation of a vehicle while it is being used as a public or livery conveyance. This exclusion does not apply to a share-the-expense car pool. _


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Since you think you're on such a roll here, why don't you tackle this little conundrum. When you're driving non-Uber passengers with your personal insurance coverage, are there any exceptions to that coverage, other than those _explicitly_ stated in the policy?
> 
> For instance, we know most insurance policies don't cover rideshare driving. But if you look at those policies, you'll _always_ see a written exception, such as the following....
> 
> _We do not provide coverage &#8230; arising out of the ownership or operation of a vehicle while it is being used as a public or livery conveyance. This exclusion does not apply to a share-the-expense car pool. _


Not clear on what you're getting at or your point? Anything that is included in your coverage must be on the policy. You can't go by the internet or customer service or your local agent if it isn't written in your policy. Of course you can carpool, you are not making money off of it. Also if you have someone in your family drive your car on occasion then they must be listed on the policy. I hope I provided outstanding service, let me know how I may assist you further.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Not clear on what you're getting at or your point? Anything that is included in your coverage must be on the policy. You can't go by the internet or customer service or your local agent if it isn't written in your policy. Of course you can carpool, you are not making money off of it. Also if you have someone in your family drive your car on occasion then they must be listed on the policy. I hope I provided outstanding service, let me know how I may assist you further.


Actually.... If the family member is NOT living in your household, an occasional driver would be a permissive operator and would NOT be listed on your policy. You're normally only to have household members listed on your policy.

Also with insurance, there is different types. Commonly referred to as basic, broad, and special. But special which is the most common is that all perils are covered unless specifically excluded. So, in most cases, unless your policy excludes something it must be covered.

And why on earth would you tell someone not to listen to their agent? That is like saying not to listen to your attorney. They are licensed to counsel you on your coverage and if they give you inaccurate information they are accountable. They carry E & O (errors and omissions) policy to cover such events.

You really need to stop putting insurance together like you know everything. Unless you are a CPCU that I don't know about. Because coverages are unique. States are unique.

So the best thing you COULD have said is for people to discuss their individual situation with their licensed insurance adviser (their agent) to determine any coverage gaps.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Actually.... If the family member is NOT living in your household, an occasional driver would be a permissive operator and would NOT be listed on your policy. You're normally only to have household members listed on your policy.
> 
> Also with insurance, there is different types. Commonly referred to as basic, broad, and special. But special which is the most common is that all perils are covered unless specifically excluded. So, in most cases, unless your policy excludes something it must be covered.
> 
> And why on earth would you tell someone not to listen to their agent? That is like saying not to listen to your attorney. They are licensed to counsel you on your coverage and if they give you inaccurate information they are accountable. They carry E & O (errors and omissions) policy to cover such events.
> 
> You really need to stop putting insurance together like you know everything. Unless you are a CPCU that I don't know about. Because coverages are unique. States are unique.
> 
> So the best thing you COULD have said is for people to discuss their individual situation with their licensed insurance adviser (their agent) to determine any coverage gaps.


I agree with you except, of course for an agent being accountable. The first thing a reputable agent will say is refer to your policy, which is in writing. A driver here swore up and down that his buddy / agent was correct on TNC Gap Insurance, yes of all things and they were flat out wrong, with no policy or anything in writing to show otherwise. If it's not in writing it does not exist.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> I agree with you except, of course for an agent being accountable. The first thing a reputable agent will say is refer to your policy, which is in writing. A driver here swore up and down that his buddy / agent was correct on TNC Gap Insurance, yes of all things and they were flat out wrong, with no policy or anything in writing to show otherwise. If it's not in writing it does not exist.


No agent should ever have to tell someone to review and read their policy. That is their job to know it. However, not all professionals are great. That's why they must carry the E & O coverage. What the agent SHOULD be doing is counseling you, and they should be showing you the policy contract statements that show they're accurate in cases there is any hesitation. And actually you're wrong in 99 percent of the cases about if it's not in writing it's not covered. The opposite is actually true (99 percent of the time) that if it is NOT in writing it would be covered. Read the above about "special form".


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> No agent should ever have to tell someone to review and read their policy. That is their job to know it. However, not all professionals are great. That's why they must carry the E & O coverage. What the agent SHOULD be doing is counseling you, and they should be showing you the policy contract statements that show they're accurate in cases there is any hesitation. And actually you're wrong in 99 percent of the cases about if it's not in writing it's not covered. The opposite is actually true (99 percent of the time) that if it is NOT in writing it would be covered. Read the above about "special form".


Geez, sorry but I confirm important information, like insurance, legal, tax issues. No one is going to admit they made a mistake, no you misunderstood, especially on a large insurance claim. You might, but never assume that or expect that, unfortunately. Go ask the driver here how his medical is covered when it is not. His agent buddy won't have anything to say but apologize. You're nuts if you think they will now pay for his medical bills. Maybe they'll pay for the time and money it takes to correct the mistake like phone calls, not MRI's.


----------



## MattyMikey

5 Star Guy said:


> Geez, sorry but I confirm important information, like insurance, legal, tax issues. No one is going to admit they made a mistake, no you misunderstood, especially on a large insurance claim. You might, but never assume that or expect that, unfortunately. Go ask the driver here how his medical is covered when it is not. His agent buddy won't have anything to say but apologize. You're nuts if you think they will now pay for his medical bills. Maybe they'll pay for the time and money it takes to correct the mistake like phone calls, not MRI's.


Actually they are responsible for all the damages caused by giving bad information. So basically I suggest getting it in writing. I always email them questions and they respond. So if something were to happen and a claim was made, the agent is responsible for the inaccurate information. Just keep the correspondence for proof.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Not clear on what you're getting at or your point?


I had a feeling you wouldn't get the point. It was a pretty straightforward question.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Since you think you're on such a roll here, why don't you tackle this little conundrum. When you're driving non-Uber passengers with your personal insurance coverage, are there any exceptions to that coverage, other than those _explicitly_ stated in the policy?
> 
> For instance, we know most insurance policies don't cover rideshare driving. But if you look at those policies, you'll _always_ see a written exception, such as the following....
> 
> _We do not provide coverage &#8230; arising out of the ownership or operation of a vehicle while it is being used as a public or livery conveyance. This exclusion does not apply to a share-the-expense car pool. _


You asked if there were exceptions. Ok so now there are exceptions. If your state recently approved of the TNC laws, then they most likely approved of the new TNC Gap insurance policy. There are now what 20 or so states that offer that coverage. So now the insurance will get you if you live in that state, you get paid to drive and you do not have this optional coverage. Then like I say, you're screwed. New policies or renewals, if anyone reads them should mention how you are not covered, or only covered with it.

I bet I didn't answer your question, so spell it again, slow.


----------



## MattyMikey

I'm not sure 5 Star Driver if you know there is a difference between TNC Endorsement and TNC GAP insurance? The "GAP" is not available in all States. Like many (if not most) of the TNC friendly companies allow you to have period 1 covered. But most don't cover gaps that are paid in 2 and 3 by James River.


----------



## MattyMikey

And before you say anything, I'm referring to outside California. I know California made special rules which is great, but most States don't have that.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> I bet I didn't answer your question, so spell it again, slow.


Yes, and no.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Everyone needs TNC Gap insurance. If you do not know what that is you better search here and Google it. You are at risk of thousands of dollars if you get in an accident, over a $5 trip with no tip. By all means check and list those states that A, have TNC Gap insurance and B those states that have new legislation and do not have that Gap coverage. My understanding is those states who have one have the other or will soon. CA is a good example of having both. I'm not sure about CT, they have Gap. I would like to see a pinned thread on this so everyone knows the situation. Stop falling for the $1M policy, get the facts before you drive. I know but it's no joke.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Yes, and no.


Well, I'm dying to know what the no is. At least you can explain it so we all learn something, which is why we are here, at least in part.


----------



## MattyMikey

Again, you don't know the difference between the different company options. TNC Endorsement vs. TNC GAP coverage. In Washington State the only one offering the gap protection is Allstate.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> Everyone needs TNC Gap insurance. If you do not know what that is you better search here and Google it. You are at risk of thousands of dollars if you get in an accident, over a $5 trip with no tip. By all means check and list those states that A, have TNC Gap insurance and B those states that have new legislation and do not have that Gap coverage. My understanding is those states who have one have the other or will soon. CA is a good example of having both. I'm not sure about CT, they have Gap. I would like to see a pinned thread on this so everyone knows the situation. Stop falling for the $1M policy, get the facts before you drive. I know but it's no joke.


You realize that there are millions of people in this country that drive around with only the bare minimum liability insurance required by the state and nothing else. No collision. No medical. No uninsured motorist. Apparently a lot of folks just don't seem to worry about insurance the way we do.


----------



## MattyMikey

Coachman said:


> You realize that there are millions of people in this country that drive around with only the bare minimum liability insurance required by the state and nothing else. No collision. No medical. No uninsured motorist. Apparently a lot of folks just don't seem to worry about insurance the way we do.


Agreed. You know what is really sad is all of this with insurance could be such an easy fix if Uber (and Lyft) were to do the right thing. They could pay more to James River to automatically cover everything meaning be primary in even period 1 (in all States) and to cover PIP, Medical, Loss of Income. And even lower the deductibles. This would cost them more but they could raise the SRF (or the new name they call it) to accommodate the excess in premiums. Then they could negotiate an optional coverage/rate with James River to allow any driver the opportunity to purchase an excess liability policy (aka Umbrella policy) to cover another 1-3 million. That's what I would do if I were these companies negotiating the insurance. Just my 2cents.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Agreed. You know what is really sad is all of this with insurance could be such an easy fix if Uber (and Lyft) were to do the right thing. They could pay more to James River to automatically cover everything meaning be primary in even period 1 (in all States) and to cover PIP, Medical, Loss of Income. And even lower the deductibles. This would cost them more but they could raise the SRF (or the new name they call it) to accommodate the excess in premiums. Then they could negotiate an optional coverage/rate with James River to allow any driver the opportunity to purchase an excess liability policy (aka Umbrella policy) to cover another 1-3 million. That's what I would do if I were these companies negotiating the insurance. Just my 2cents.


That and Coachman has been my point. Everyone believes they're fully covered, medical, the works and no one thinks they will ever need $1M so they are set, both drivers and pax. They mislead drivers and pax insurance, like everything else they do.


----------



## uberdriverfornow

It just keeps getting better. I have yet another conflicting email from another Uber CSR.

*XXXXX* (Uber)

Mar 12, xxxx

Hi XXXXXXX,

Thanks for writing in. Happy to assist you.

I would like to inform you that underage riders can ride in your car with the permission of the account holder. If the account holder requests a ride and give permission to ride an under-aged person on account of them, you can give them ride.

Please let me know if there is anything else I can do for you.

Thanks,

*xxxxxxxxxxxxx*
help.uber.com


----------



## uberdriverfornow

Here is one sent before that one where they were ambiguous so I asked them if they were being deliberately ambiguous.

Mar 10, XXXX

Hi XXXXXXX,

Thanks for reaching out, this is XXXXXX, stepping in for XXXXXX. Happy to help you out.

XXXXXXX, as per checking our Terms of Service, you are not allowed to transport a person if he/she is not the account holder. You will only allowed to transport this person if the account holder is with them.

Also riders under 18 cannot request or receive a ride unless they are accompanied. If you think this policy is being violated, you can politely decline a ride request.

A partner like you truly deserves the best of customer service. If you need additional help, you may find this link helpful.

All the best,

*XXXXXXXX*


----------



## uberdriverfornow

I'm just going to run with the "it's ok giving rides to minors if the account holder is present". I think with enough evidence given that they are saying it's ok to give rides to minors with the account holder present I'm not going to have any issues. But no more minors using the parents account anymore.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

uberdriverfornow said:


> I'm just going to run with the "it's ok giving rides to minors if the account holder is present". I think with enough evidence given that they are saying it's ok to give rides to minors with the account holder present I'm not going to have any issues. But no more minors using the parents account anymore.


Not only must a minor be accompanied by an adult account holder, the minor might need a booster seat or child seat based on the age, weight and height. That is covered on another thread, just another thing drivers here need to be aware of, that parents might not be. Never assume anything, especially a minor's age height or weight since you are getting the ticket in most states. Know the laws in your state.


----------



## Coachman

uberdriverfornow said:


> Also riders under 18 cannot request or receive a ride unless they are accompanied. If you think this policy is being violated, you can politely decline a ride request.


Notice they never say "don't give rides to minors." It's always "you can decline" if you're not comfortable.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> Notice they never say "don't give rides to minors." It's always "you can decline" if you're not comfortable.


They expressly say don't give rides to unaccompanied minors.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> They expressly say don't give rides to unaccompanied minors.


But they're happy to take the money from the tens of thousands who ride every week.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> But they're happy to take the money from the tens of thousands who ride every week.


Why wouldn't they be? Uber has nothing to lose if a driver breaks the rules. meanwhile the driver has everything to lsoe from breaking the rules.


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> Why wouldn't they be? Uber has nothing to lose if a driver breaks the rules. meanwhile the driver has everything to lsoe from breaking the rules.


Driver is NOT breaking the rules. If anything the passenger is breaking their rules.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Driver is NOT breaking the rules. If anything the passenger is breaking their rules.


The driver is in fact breaking the driver-Uber agreement.


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> The driver is in fact breaking the driver-Uber agreement.


You're actually completely wrong. Read the other 31 pages of this thread. The PASSENGER TOS says it. Nowhere is such rule indicated on the DRIVER AGREEMENT (their TOS). Nor does it say anywhere (and I mean anywhere) in the DRIVER AGREEMENT that you must also know and/or follow the PASSENGER TOS.

Conclusion: You are wrong.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> You're actually completely wrong. Read the other 31 pages of this thread. The PASSENGER TOS says it. Nowhere is such rule indicated on the DRIVER AGREEMENT (their TOS). Nor does it say anywhere (and I mean anywhere) in the DRIVER AGREEMENT that you must also know and/or follow the PASSENGER TOS.
> 
> Conclusion: You are wrong.


No, I'm correct. You're ascribing me a position and calling that wrong, but you aren't actually debating my claim.

Show me where in the driver agreement it says you can give rides to unaccompanied minors who don't have an account. I'll wait.


----------



## MattyMikey

And before you respond back I am wrong (as you people seem to do) back it up with fact of showing in the driver agreement where it says that. And do NOT copy emails from inconsistent CSR's. Those don't count as they can't modify the agreement. Plus they get the info wrong anyways.


----------



## MattyMikey

Where does it say you can work at 9:51pm?

Since it does not specifically say that does that mean you can't drive?

That's how ridiculous your statement is!


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> And before you respond back I am wrong (as you people seem to do) back it up with fact of showing in the driver agreement where it says that. And do NOT copy emails from inconsistent CSR's. Those don't count as they can't modify the agreement. Plus they get the info wrong anyways.


I'm still waiting.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Where does it say you can work at 9:51pm?
> 
> Since it does not specifically say that does that mean you can't drive?
> 
> That's how ridiculous your statement is!


Looks like I'll be waiting for a while.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> No, I'm correct. You're ascribing me a position and calling that wrong, but you aren't actually debating my claim.
> 
> Show me where in the driver agreement it says you can give rides to unaccompanied minors who don't have an account. I'll wait.


This is debating for dummies.

Example: Show me where the law says you can walk down the sidewalk in your neighborhood eating an ice cream cone. I'll wait!

You aren't really this dim, are you?


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Where does it say you can work at 9:51pm?
> 
> Since it does not specifically say that does that mean you can't drive?
> 
> That's how ridiculous your statement is!


2.4

"You retain the sole right to determine when, where, and for how long you will utilize the Driver App or the Uber Services."


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> This is debating for dummies.
> 
> Example: Show me where the law says you can walk down the sidewalk in your neighborhood eating an ice cream cone. I'll wait!
> 
> You aren't really this dim, are you?


I can't imagine how embarrassed you must feel that someone you consider dim has shown you that you're wrong.


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> I can't imagine how embarrassed you must feel that someone you consider dim has shown you that you're wrong.


Actually you haven't proven anything. It does not say you can't do something so you can. Do you accept tips? I know the agreement does not say you can't nor does it say you can. But by it not saying you can't - you are within the rules of the agreement.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Actually you haven't proven anything. It does not say you can't do something so you can. Do you accept tips? I know the agreement does not say you can't nor does it say you can. But by it not saying you can't - you are within the rules of the agreement.


The driver agreement specifically says you can't use the Uber app to pick up people who don't have an Uber account.


----------



## MattyMikey

And you'll be waiting a long time because no such restriction is listed. 

Ask yourself this. If it was not for the passenger TOS what basis would you have to assume it is not allowed?

You wouldn't.


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> The driver agreement specifically says you can't use the Uber app to pick up people who don't have an Uber account.


Actually account holders can authorize users to use their account. Uber even tells people how to do it.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> And you'll be waiting a long time because no such restriction is listed.
> 
> Ask yourself this. If it was not for the passenger TOS what basis would you have to assume it is not allowed?
> 
> You wouldn't.


Then there's no point to Uber. You can just do street hails.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Actually account holders can authorize users to use their account. Uber even tells people how to do it.


And that has what to do with anything? That's in the passenger agreement, not the driver agreement. You just said one has nothing to do with the other. Now they do?


----------



## MattyMikey

Which I'm sure they would love that if the cities would allow it.


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> And that has what to do with anything? That's in the passenger agreement, not the driver agreement. You just said one has nothing to do with the other. Now they do?


No. But you people who know nothing are basing everything off of it. If it was not for thre passenger agreement you would never assume or state it was violating Uber rules.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Which I'm sure they would love that if the cities would allow it.


I don't agree that Uber would love it if there was a way drivers could do street hails because Uber would have a very hard time collecting money.

Cabs do street hails.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> No. But you people who know nothing are basing everything off of it. If it was not for thre passenger agreement you would never assume or state it was violating Uber rules.


Now you're telling me what I'm thinking.

I prefer to base this conversation on the driver agreement.


----------



## MattyMikey

Or lack there of


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Or lack there of


A personal attack shows you're not able to discuss the issue.


----------



## MattyMikey

Or after 32+ pages of dealing with you people that don't know crap is too exhausting to deal with.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Or after 32+ pages of dealing with you people that don't know crap is too exhausting to deal with.


Apparently not because here you still are and you refuse to deal with me and instead want to deal with what you make up and ascribe to others.

This is very simple, the driver agreements states a driver will only pick up "users". An unaccompanied minor is not a "user". Therefore, driver an unaccompanied minor is a violation of the driver agreement.

I asked and am still asking if you have seen anything in the driver agreement that allows a driver to use the Uber app to pick up an non "user". You have responded with personal attacks which leads me to believe you have nothing to back up your claim. If you, as you claim, knew what you were talking about, I imagine you would have backed up your claim by now.


----------



## MattyMikey

Again, if you read through all the posts you would see your argument answered and without merit.

https://help.uber.com/h/ba042204-d476-4cc3-91fd-8ecc56dda335

So tell me again, how does did not show a non-user can't be a passenger?


----------



## Demon

What a surprise, not the driver agreement.


----------



## MattyMikey

No but defining acceptable user which is what you are basis your argument on. You are ridiculous. From Uber directly. Public. You have no argument. Get over it.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> No but defining acceptable user which is what you are basis your argument on. You are ridiculous. From Uber directly. Public. You have no argument. Get over it.


That's the passenger agreement which you claimed didn't apply to drivers, but when it suits you it suddenly does.


----------



## lizf

thanks for this forum - very helpful stuff ...appcte from newbie


----------



## MattyMikey

Demon said:


> That's the passenger agreement which you claimed didn't apply to drivers, but when it suits you it suddenly does.


Is it the passenger TOS? I don't believe it is. It is help.uber.com is where it's located. There is a difference between help and passenger TOS.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> That's the passenger agreement which you claimed didn't apply to drivers, but when it suits you it suddenly does.


Are you really taking the position that users can't order a ride for a friend? Is that where you've ended up?


----------



## MattyMikey

Coachman said:


> Are you really taking the position that users can't order a ride for a friend? Is that where you've ended up?


Well since their argument about insurance didn't hold water I'm sure this is where it is going lol.


----------



## Demon

MattyMikey said:


> Is it the passenger TOS? I don't believe it is. It is help.uber.com is where it's located. There is a difference between help and passenger TOS.


Great so you've returned us to the beginning. 
Do you have anything in the driver agreement about picking up non users? Being that you refuse to answer this I'm guessing your answer is no.

The CSR are straight from Uber as well. You want to pick and choose which information from Uber you'll believe and which you won't.


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> Are you really taking the position that users can't order a ride for a friend? Is that where you've ended up?


No.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> No.


You're as mixed up as the other folks who were arguing your side.


----------



## Drago619

After 34 threads of this..i decided to get my TNC gap insurance. From now on i card every rider upon my arrival and i also inform couples or groups that i will only be taking the single account holder that made the request. All other patrons must request their own uber. I explain to all of them its for their own safety per the people of uberpeople.net


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> You're as mixed up as the other folks who were arguing your side.


You asked a question and I answered it. Not sure exactly what I'm mixed up about and can't wait for you to explain it to me.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Coachman said:


> This is debating for dummies.
> 
> Example: Show me where the law says you can walk down the sidewalk in your neighborhood eating an ice cream cone. I'll wait!
> 
> You aren't really this dim, are you?


Logic is wasted here.


----------



## Demon

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Logic is wasted here.


Agreed.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Coachman said:


> This is debating for dummies.
> 
> Example: Show me where the law says you can walk down the sidewalk in your neighborhood eating an ice cream cone. I'll wait!
> 
> You aren't really this dim, are you?


Probably is. How do you think Uber survives?


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

E


Demon said:


> 2.4
> 
> "You retain the sole right to determine when, where, and for how long you will utilize the Driver App or the Uber Services."


What about timeouts? Now all we know is that Uber lies.


----------



## Demon

Fuzzyelvis said:


> E
> 
> What about timeouts? Now all we know is that Uber lies.


I think everyone knows that Uber lies, that's kind of my point. Uber will lie to the drivers and put them at risk while Uber remains in a position of nothing to lose.


----------



## MattyMikey

Drago619 said:


> After 34 threads of this..i decided to get my TNC gap insurance. From now on i card every rider upon my arrival and i also inform couples or groups that i will only be taking the single account holder that made the request. All other patrons must request their own uber. I explain to all of them its for their own safety per the people of uberpeople.net


I hope this is a joke. Otherwise you won't need that TNC GAP Insurance when Uber deactivates you for not taking passenger guests of the user. There is a reason you must have 5 seatbelts in regular X. Must also tell them per 5 Star Guy "law".


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> I hope this is a joke. Otherwise you won't need that TNC GAP Insurance when Uber deactivates you for not taking passenger guests of the user. There is a reason you must have 5 seatbelts in regular X. Must also tell them per 5 Star Guy "law".


Well, you got that right at least.


----------



## MattyMikey

LOL


----------



## 5 Star Guy

With 34 pages it would be nice to have the driver agreement posted.


----------



## Beur

Guess what California drivers, if you're not properly fingerprinted under CPUC Commission Decision (D.) 97-07-063, you can't transport unaccompanied minors. This ends the debate for California drivers.

http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Efile/G000/M157/K902/157902666.PDF


----------



## MattyMikey

But has the above in California passed or still in proposed status? I don't live in California anymore so I haven't heard of this before.


----------



## Beur

The decision, CPUC Commission Decision (D.) 97-07-063 is already on the books. As for the proposed decision from the link provided that is schedule for the 17th.


----------



## Drago619

Drago619 said:


> After 34 threads of this..i decided to get my TNC gap insurance. From now on i card every rider upon my arrival and i also inform couples or groups that i will only be taking the single account holder that made the request. All other patrons must request their own uber. I explain to all of them its for their own safety per the people of uberpeople.net


Not only did i get TNC..i maxed out on everything...

Come on you know im joking..i pick up anyone all the time..


----------



## MattyMikey

Drago619 said:


> Not only did i get TNC..i maxed out on everything...
> 
> Come on you know im joking..i pick up anyone all the time..


Just making sure because some of the nuts around here not mentioning names (cough 5 Star) would seriously do that.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Just making sure because some of the nuts around here not mentioning names (cough 5 Star) would seriously do that.


Being as you are definitely not fully covered, who knows what coverage you do have? Don't drive and own a house or anything, especially if you touch a kid and don't call 911.


----------



## MattyMikey

Beur said:


> The decision, CPUC Commission Decision (D.) 97-07-063 is already on the books. As for the proposed decision from the link provided that is schedule for the 17th.


Well I would concur that in California after reviewing some of the 50 pages of the document would be wise to really follow the established rules by the State. I happen to agree that all drivers should undergo real background checks with fingerprints. Maybe if they did this would not be an issue.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

MattyMikey said:


> Well I would concur that in California after reviewing some of the 50 pages of the document would be wise to really follow the established rules by the State. I happen to agree that all drivers should undergo real background checks with fingerprints. Maybe if they did this would not be an issue.


Definitely against fingerprints. As Hillary says, what difference does that make?


----------



## MattyMikey

I am sure it makes a difference sometimes. Not all the time. I just feel the background checks they do now is not much better than a simple credit check. Same type of service.


----------



## itniloe

Why take the risk for a $5 fare?
Either cancel and report underage rider and move on, or if your worried about your rating do the ride, rate pax accordingly and report an underage rider.

You're an uber driver not a school bus driver.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

You are a professional driver and should know the difference, that's the difference.


----------



## Coachman

itniloe said:


> Why take the risk for a $5 fare?
> Either cancel and report underage rider and move on, or if your worried about your rating do the ride, rate pax accordingly and report an underage rider.
> 
> You're an uber driver not a school bus driver.


I'm paid to drive people from point A to point B. It makes no difference whether they're 16 or 106.


----------



## Beur

5 Star Guy said:


> Definitely against fingerprints. As Hillary says, what difference does that make?


I'm all for fingerprint checks, might thin the heard.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

5 Star Guy said:


> Definitely against fingerprints. As Hillary says, what difference does that make?


Read about what happened when Houston instituted fingerprinting and a lot of Uber drivers did not pass that even though they passed uber's background checks. A lot of it was that they weren't who they said they were. It will multiple aliases which is something that a non fingerprint background check won't catch. I'll try to post a link when I have more time.


----------



## itniloe

Coachman said:


> I'm paid to drive people from point A to point B. It makes no difference whether they're 16 or 106.


We are paid to drive people over the age of 18, according to the Uber terms of service.

Expecting a driver to take under 18 yr old unaccompanied passengers is a violation of the terms of service and could get your account suspended.
There's good reasons for this rule and I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to ignore it.

*"The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18. You may not authorize third parties to use your Account, and you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you. "

https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms*


----------



## Coachman

itniloe said:


> We are paid to drive people over the age of 18, according to the Uber terms of service.
> 
> Expecting a driver to take under 18 yr old unaccompanied passengers is a violation of the terms of service and could get your account suspended.
> There's good reasons for this rule and I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to ignore it.
> 
> *"The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18. You may not authorize third parties to use your Account, and you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you. "
> 
> https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms*


The partner agreement, which is our "contract" with Uber, states nothing about verifying whether passengers are in compliance with the TOS. If the passenger is non-compliant, it's the passenger who can be deactivated, not the driver.

This has only been gone over about 100 times on this thread.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> The partner agreement, which is our "contract" with Uber, states nothing about verifying whether passengers are in compliance with the TOS. If the passenger is non-compliant, it's the passenger who can be deactivated, not the driver.
> 
> This has only been gone over about 100 times on this thread.


It would be helpful if you could post the agreement. Finding a loophole from incompetent employees at a sketchy and misleading company doesn't bode well with my sleep.


----------



## Coachman

5 Star Guy said:


> It would be helpful if you could post the agreement.


Uber has provided each driver with a copy of the current partner agreement. Do you not know where to find yours?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

No, saw it and skimmed it once when I signed up. Now it's buried somewhere so you don't find it. They have new services like Amber Alerts they are testing out and now they are testing letting up to ten people use your account, who aren't a minor. The agreement should cover everything, for each market when there are differences.


----------



## Coachman

Here's the relevant paragraph:

_Beginning when a User request for transportation has been accepted within the Uber application and ending when the last requesting User departs from your vehicle, a trip is ended, or a trip is cancelled, whichever is later, Company provides primary automobile liability insurance in the amount of $1,000,000 for death, bodily injury and property damage. This coverage is primary and in addition to any insurance designed for commercial use you maintain. In addition, during this period Company provides Uninsured/Underinsured Motorist coverage in the amount of $1,000,000 for death, bodily injury and property damage and contingent Comprehensive and Collision coverage with a $1,000 deductible._


----------



## itniloe

Coachman said:


> The partner agreement, which is our "contract" with Uber, states nothing about verifying whether passengers are in compliance with the TOS. If the passenger is non-compliant, it's the passenger who can be deactivated, not the driver.
> 
> This has only been gone over about 100 times on this thread.


Just offering my point of view. Hopefully some will find it helpful.

By picking up a juvenile you are knowingly picking up an unauthorized user.
If you don't know this ignorance of the rules is usually not a successful defense.

_*"1.14 "User" means an end user authorized by Uber to use the Uber mobile application for the purpose of obtaining Transportation Services offered by Company's transportation provider customers."*_

If there were ever *ANY* sort of problem you have no legally viable defense.
The TOS clearly states this service is for adults only.

While you are not obligated to report violations it's really in the drivers best interest to so in order to stop the abuse of the service.

Where do you draw the line? When 3 toddlers jump in your car and the destination is daycare?

Just don't do it!
It's not worth the risk.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

It is sad it took 35 pages to explain the same thing. What do they say, I forget.


----------



## murdoch

itniloe said:


> Just offering my point of view. Hopefully some will find it helpful.
> 
> By picking up a juvenile you are knowingly picking up an unauthorized user.
> If you don't know this ignorance of the rules is usually not a successful defense.


Since we're rehashing the same thing over and over and over, I'll ask again. I guess this means you check every rider's ID? Otherwise it seems you could be knowingly picking up unathorized users on every ride; not just minors but non-account holders too. And I think the main arguments here have been about transporting adolescents, not unaccompanied toddlers. And I don't buy that "I can tell how old someone is by looking at them". You might have Benjamin Button in your car.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

You can take a pax who is not the account holder, you can not take a minor alone even if they are 17.99 years old. You also can't take the wrong pax, you do need to ask for a name before they enter your car and the TOS states a driver can ask for ID.


----------



## itniloe

murdoch said:


> Since we're rehashing the same thing over and over and over, I'll ask again. I guess this means you check every rider's ID? Otherwise it seems you could be knowingly picking up unathorized users on every ride; not just minors but non-account holders too. And I think the main arguments here have been about transporting adolescents, not unaccompanied toddlers. And I don't buy that "I can tell how old someone is by looking at them". You might have Benjamin Button in your car.


You're right not always possible to tell age by appearance.
Other times it's obvious.
If the pickup or dropoff is a school it's a no brainer.

If it's not obvious then ask to see ID or don't worry about it.
I've never asked to see ID though. I'd just report an obvious underage passenger and rate accordingly.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

itniloe said:


> Just offering my point of view. Hopefully some will find it helpful.
> 
> By picking up a juvenile you are knowingly picking up an unauthorized user.
> If you don't know this ignorance of the rules is usually not a successful defense.
> 
> _*"1.14 "User" means an end user authorized by Uber to use the Uber mobile application for the purpose of obtaining Transportation Services offered by Company's transportation provider customers."*_
> 
> If there were ever *ANY* sort of problem you have no legally viable defense.
> The TOS clearly states this service is for adults only.
> 
> While you are not obligated to report violations it's really in the drivers best interest to so in order to stop the abuse of the service.
> 
> Where do you draw the line? When 3 toddlers jump in your car and the destination is daycare?
> 
> Just don't do it!
> It's not worth the risk.


Where does it say TO THE DRIVER that only adults can be authorized users? Where in the driver's TOS does it say ANYTHING about minors?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Where does it say TO THE DRIVER that only adults can be authorized users? Where in the driver's TOS does it say ANYTHING about minors?


There is a loophole the sketchy company has in place. Regardless driver's must only pick up people associated with an account, not a street hail. We get that part. The next part is an account holder, not a street hail must be 18. We get that. The loophole is apparently these top employees have let a minor have an account and drivers here are blaming the company and not using common sense. If the driver follows the driver agreement you can only take those from an account, that's where it is listed.


----------



## itniloe

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Where does it say TO THE DRIVER that only adults can be authorized users? Where in the driver's TOS does it say ANYTHING about minors?


In the driver TOS it defines a "user as authorized by Uber":

*1.14 "User" means an end user authorized by Uber to use the Uber mobile application for the purpose of obtaining Transportation Services offered by Company's transportation provider customers.

https://uber-regulatory-documents.s3.amazonaws.com/country/united_states/p2p/RASIER Technology Services Agreement December 10 2015.pdf?_ga=1.59528685.1558445318.1453903306*

In the passenger TOS is defines an authorized user as 18 or older, unless accompanied by an adult.

*"The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18. You may not authorize third parties to use your Account, and you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you. "

https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms*

When you sign up as a driver you agree that this is a legal binding agreement.
And it not so clearly states that a *juvenile is not an authorized user* unless accompanied by an adult.

I rest my case.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

itniloe said:


> In the driver TOS it defines a "user as authorized by Uber":
> 
> 1.14 "User" means an end user authorized by Uber to use the Uber mobile application for the purpose of obtaining Transportation Services offered by Company's transportation provider customers.
> 
> In the passenger TOS is defines an authorized user as 18 or older, unless accompanied by an adult.
> 
> *"The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18. You may not authorize third parties to use your Account, and you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you. "
> 
> https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms*


Like everything else about this sketchy company, they are not a transportation company, they claim.


----------



## Coachman

itniloe said:


> And it not so clearly states that a *juvenile is not an authorized user* unless accompanied by an adult.
> 
> I rest my case.


I don't card my passengers. And I don't ask any of them how old they are. So I don't "knowingly" transport any minor.

Uber rules.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

itniloe said:


> In the driver TOS it defines a "user as authorized by Uber":
> 
> *1.14 "User" means an end user authorized by Uber to use the Uber mobile application for the purpose of obtaining Transportation Services offered by Company's transportation provider customers.
> 
> https://uber-regulatory-documents.s3.amazonaws.com/country/united_states/p2p/RASIER Technology Services Agreement December 10 2015.pdf?_ga=1.59528685.1558445318.1453903306*
> 
> In the passenger TOS is defines an authorized user as 18 or older, unless accompanied by an adult.
> 
> *"The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18. You may not authorize third parties to use your Account, and you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you. "
> 
> https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms*
> 
> When you sign up as a driver you agree that this is a legal binding agreement.
> And it not so clearly states that a *juvenile is not an authorized user* unless accompanied by an adult.
> 
> I rest my case.


And if I'm not a rider I have NO REASON to read the rider's TOS and know anything it says. So the definition in the rider's TOS is meaningless. How would I even know it exists? I didn't agree to the rider's TOS.


----------



## Coachman

Fuzzyelvis said:


> And if I'm not a rider I have NO REASON to read the rider's TOS and know anything it says. So the definition in the rider's TOS is meaningless. How would I even know it exists? I didn't agree to the rider's TOS.


Excellent point. And it's been made in this thread several times already. I never saw the rider TOS until I came to this board. It's not required reading for drivers.


----------



## MattyMikey

So I'm going to give and summarize my points. 

itniloe's post I agree with. The definition of their User some of us know they define their user differently on the Rider TOS.

However, Uber (which is stupid) does NOT define it in the driver agreement nor does it say that a driver is responsible for knowing/reading the Rider TOS. 

IF it did (which would be smart) then the argument would be correct. 

So my point is, currently based off the Driver Agreement transporting underage passengers is not prohibited. As of today. They should update it, but if they do, we would have to get an addendum. They couldn't just bury it in. 

As for insurance, nowhere on Rider TOS or Driver Agreement does it suggest insurance would not be covered if the Rider TOS is violated.

So do I know (which I honestly didn't before reading this forum) Uber is not wanting to seem they allow picking up minors? Yes. 

Am I required to know (or legally required to enforce this policy)? No. 

Do I think there is a reason it is not in the Driver Agreement but it is in the Rider TOS? Yes. They want (since they make money) minors being transported. But to cover their butts they say not allowed in the publicly available rules. That way they can put the blame on the account User if there was an issue. They are NOT dumb. They're getting their cake and eating it too.

So maybe people should be emailing their legal or public relations to tell them to address this instead of talking to their CSR's.


----------



## itniloe

There's a lot of articles on this subject if anyone wants to do some more reading.
The rideshare guys article makes some excellent points on why it might not be a good thing to do

https://www.google.com/search?q=can...rome..69i57.6084j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


----------



## Demon

Coachman said:


> I don't card my passengers. And I don't ask any of them how old they are. So I don't "knowingly" transport any minor.
> 
> Uber rules.


Go for it. I think that others here are just trying to impress upon you the risk you are taking in doing so.


----------



## Coachman

Demon said:


> Go for it. I think that others here are just trying to impress upon you the risk you are taking in doing so.


I see the risks of transporting drunks to be much greater than the risks of transporting 17 year olds home from school.


----------



## j4de305

My3kidsmum said:


> Could someone please explain the policy regarding picking up minor/juveniles that are not accompanied by a guardian ?
> 
> I have had several request recently from high school students that have an account under their name.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your advice.


First- I did not bother to read everyone else's reply, so excuse me if it is being repeated. I had this issue last week, and spoke with Uber on the phone about this and they specifically said that THERE MUST BE SOMEONE OVER THE AGE OF 18 on the vehicle to act as guardian.


----------



## KevRyde

j4de305 said:


> First- I did not bother to read everyone else's reply, so excuse me if it is being repeated. I had this issue last week, and spoke with Uber on the phone about this and they specifically said that THERE MUST BE SOMEONE OVER THE AGE OF 18 on the vehicle to act as guardian.


You spoke to Uber on the *phone*? What's their phone number?


----------



## MattyMikey

KevRyde said:


> You spoke to Uber on the *phone*? What's their phone number?


Yeah do share. This was same thing I was thinking.


----------



## j4de305

j4de305 said:


> First- I did not bother to read everyone else's reply, so excuse me if it is being repeated. I had this issue last week, and spoke with Uber on the phone about this and they specifically said that THERE MUST BE SOMEONE OVER THE AGE OF 18 on the vehicle to act as guardian.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

j4de305 said:


> First- I did not bother to read everyone else's reply, so excuse me if it is being repeated. I had this issue last week, and spoke with Uber on the phone about this and they specifically said that THERE MUST BE SOMEONE OVER THE AGE OF 18 on the vehicle to act as guardian.


Minors are not allowed alone and you are required to follow the laws in your state for a child seat or booster seat. Also you don't have to take a pax with a minor. You just saved reading 36 pages. Oh and the rule is not listed in the driver agreement and it does not matter.


----------



## j4de305

They called me from a main office in Chicago. 
The phone number came up as Australia so that we can't call back. 
He called after I had been messaging back and forth in the ap under help. 
He got tired of messaging and called me.


----------



## Thelma & Louise (T&L)

_*"But while Uber is reaping profits from transporting unaccompanied children, it isn't designed to. Despite the recent launch of UberFamily, which allows parents to order cars equipped with car seats and provides tablets for entertainment, the company's terms and conditions state that individuals under 18 are not permitted to use the service if they're not riding with an adult. Minors are also prohibited from opening accounts."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...-to-move-kids-around-town-20150310-story.html

"Many parents interviewed - who said they had no idea about the ban on kids under 18"*_


----------



## Coachman

j4de305 said:


> First- I did not bother to read everyone else's reply, so excuse me if it is being repeated. I had this issue last week, and spoke with Uber on the phone about this and they specifically said that THERE MUST BE SOMEONE OVER THE AGE OF 18 on the vehicle to act as guardian.


Did they tell you what the penalty is for drivers who violate this policy?


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> Did they tell you what the penalty is for drivers who violate this policy?


Oh no he didn't.  Some people on here go rogue.


----------



## Thelma & Louise (T&L)

Coachman. I am wondering which part of your brain was missing at birth. Reasoning, cognitive processing, rational thought - must be the frontal lobe.


----------



## Coachman

Thelma & Louise (T&L) said:


> Coachman. I am wondering which part of your brain was missing at birth. Reasoning, cognitive processing, rational thought - must be the frontal lobe.


You've got dozens of people on this board running around warning about the dire consequences of taking unaccompanied minors. Their two arguments are 1) that you're exposing yourself to the risk of false sexual assault charges, and 2) that if you're in an accident you're not covered by Uber's insurance. Nobody ever bothers to challenge them on those assertions. I have. And every one of them has come up empty. Care to try?


----------



## Drago619

The 15 year old young gentleman I picked up from his high school after his baseball practice told me he was 15. It was his account and he tipped me 2 bucks on a small fare. Had some good baseball talk as well.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

The theory is not being aware that robbing a bank was a crime. A red traffic light means to stop. When you don't know your job or you're not good at your job you should quit, get fired or just wait for a problem. Oh the better one is, well the other driver did it so I can.  I'm not judging on doing your job poorly, just how badly you must need the money oh and good luck if you take a minor in an accident, the coverage is up to 1M with limitations, I guess you're paying the rest.


----------



## Slavic Riga

Coachman said:


> If Uber doesn't allow it, then why are they hooking me up with all these underage riders? Uber knows full well that teens use their service. In fact I suspect they're promoting it. Another driver posted an email from Uber support on this issue. And the advice from Uber was to use your best judgment. That's all the answer I need.
> 
> Look, if you don't want to take minors, I get it. Just don't come in these threads and tell people they're not covered by insurance, or that they're likely to have false molestation claims filed against them. Both are nonsense.


You as a Driver should be aware that Uber does not take any responsibility. Go over all the incidents that have taken place if its in Uber's favor "*They are working with authorities".* If NOT in Uber favor (1)"He/She was not working for Uber. (2) If the app was 'ON' & no passenger & in an accident. Denial (3) Driver was deactivated & so on & on. 
Knowing Rules of your trade is paramount to all Professionals & Semi-Professionals. Not knowing it & stating ignorance, will not save any driver of consequences or penalty in the Courts of law.

Insurance companies will fight tooth & nail not to do a payout. Same way, Uber will argue that you the Driver should know the law & should have refused the Ride. In conclusion Uber is a Technology Co. & hence will not assume any responsibility & liability. You have already* indemnified* Uber in the TOS Agreement.


----------



## Coachman

Slavic Riga said:


> You as a Driver should be aware that Uber does not take any responsibility. Go over all the incidents that have taken place if its in Uber's favor "*They are working with authorities".* If NOT in Uber favor (1)"He/She was not working for Uber. (2) If the app was 'ON' & no passenger & in an accident. Denial (3) Driver was deactivated & so on & on.
> Knowing Rules of your trade is paramount to all Professionals & Semi-Professionals. Not knowing it & stating ignorance, will not save any driver of consequences or penalty in the Courts of law.
> 
> Insurance companies will fight tooth & nail not to do a payout. Same way, Uber will argue that you the Driver should know the law & should have refused the Ride. In conclusion Uber is a Technology Co. & hence will not assume any responsibility & liability. You have already* indemnified* Uber in the TOS Agreement.


So show me the Uber drivers who were deactivated or had their insurance voided because they transported an unaccompanied minor. Show me the minors who were injured in an Uber and were refused coverage for being unauthorized riders and violating the TOS. If Uber's not taking responsibility, as you say, then show me.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> So show me an Uber driver who had his insurance voided because he transported an unaccompanied minor. Show me the minor who was injured in an Uber and was refused coverage for being an unauthorized rider and violating the TOS. If Uber's not taking responsibility, as you say, then show me.


As I've said before, not sure why you assume they would? Do you have any evidence of them being an honest, nice company who would go out of their way to protect you? I have plenty of facts and evidence that shows otherwise, so do you. Google how much it costs to pay for a dead minor in an accident, I'm sure it's over 1M, oh and you take three minors?


----------



## Slavic Riga

Coachman said:


> So show me the Uber drivers who were deactivated or had their insurance voided because they transported an unaccompanied minor. Show me the minors who were injured in an Uber and were refused coverage for being unauthorized riders and violating the TOS. If Uber's not taking responsibility, as you say, then show me.


I'm not here to prove you wrong. We as IC's/Driver community prefer to educate & help one another & not to get into trouble or to be found foul with regulations. There are times we agree & there are times we disagree but we got to see both sides of the spectrum. Honestly, I have no statistics nor aware of any Drivers being deactivated or sued on this platform. Aware of Drivers performing juvenile ride-share service & after advising them have been appreciative & stopped. But, I do have articles where Uber has been in denial & Uber Management has *mandated* its employees to deny certain reports in the press. Case in point 'Background check'. Uber has always argued that their method or measures were industry-leading & now they have agreed to pay the fine after being found guilty. So, here rests my explanation. You are your own individual & of legal age & mind to make your own decision.


----------



## 5 Star Guy

I would like to see the fine print on their policy. Their marketing collateral of 1M is not the policy. Any idea how much money it costs for a minor who will need a prosthetic for the rest of their life? Good luck.


----------



## Coachman

Slavic Riga said:


> I'm not here to prove you wrong. We as IC's/Driver community prefer to educate & help one another & not to get into trouble or to be found foul with regulations. There are times we agree & there are times we disagree but we got to see both sides of the spectrum. Honestly, I have no statistics nor aware of any Drivers being deactivated or sued on this platform. Aware of Drivers performing juvenile ride-share service & after advising them have been appreciative & stopped. But, I do have articles where Uber has been in denial & Uber Management has *mandated* its employees to deny certain reports in the press. Case in point 'Background check'. Uber has always argued that their method or measures were industry-leading & now they have agreed to pay the fine after being found guilty. So, here rests my explanation. You are your own individual & of legal age & mind to make your own decision.


If your best argument is that Uber is untrustworthy, that's not a case for denying rides to minors, that's a case for quitting Uber altogether.


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## Slavic Riga

Coachman said:


> If your best argument is that Uber is untrustworthy, that's not a case for denying rides to minors, that's a case for quitting Uber altogether.


The OP & thread & is about Picking juvenile Riders & its legal ramifications. It has nothing to do whether Uber is trustworthy or untrustworthy.
Uber's agreement does touch on the subject & it is there for the Courts & legal community to notice that they do have a clause on juveniles & under age riders. Hence, Uber cannot be held liable or responsible or have acted irresponsibly. Its the drivers discretion whether to accept the rider & provide the service or decline it.


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## Coachman

Slavic Riga said:


> The OP & thread & is about Picking juvenile Riders & its legal ramifications.


The people in this thread making claims about legal ramifications don't have any knowledge about that. They're simply speculating. That's been my point all along.

You claimed earlier that insurance companies will "fight tooth & nail not to do a payout." That's not been my experience.


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## 5 Star Guy

I think the point is it's on these desperate drivers taking minors alone. There isn't any legitimate, reasonable explanation to need to take minors or want to take minors other than money. It's these drivers who give us a bad reputation. Sure the parents are ignorant, ignorant that they don't know the rules and nuts to let their kids drive alone with these drivers. There is a reason for these laws and rules and to ignore them is a problem. There's no way a pax will be fully covered in an accident so it's on you, along with any allegations or damage to your car. With 37 pages it's clear people will do what they want, like anything else. I thought drivers on here were better than that.


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## Coachman

5 Star Guy , You take riders for some reason other than money?


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## Demon

Coachman said:


> 5 Star Guy , You take riders for some reason other than money?


I'm going to maintain that Uber drivers are losing money at worst and making less than minimum wage at best. If it was really about money for Uber drivers they would do something else.


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## 5 Star Guy

Coachman said:


> 5 Star Guy , You take riders for some reason other than money?


I know the risk, the time, the headache, the money you'll lose for a minor is significantly more than an adult. We know their insurance policy has limitations. The insurance is also not per pax, it's per accident. When someone can show me that prosthetics cost less than 1M for 50 years or a parent will sue for under 1M, their lawyer will represent them for free, then I might reconsider.  Get the insurance policy before assuming it's an umbrella type of policy that covers everything when we know that's not the case.


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## SoiCowboy

My3kidsmum said:


> Could someone please explain the policy regarding picking up minor/juveniles that are not accompanied by a guardian ?
> 
> I have had several request recently from high school students that have an account under their name.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your advice.


Received an email today, 11/16/16, pointing me to Uber's latest terms of service. Here is a portion:

*4. Access and Use of the Services
User Accounts.*
In order to use most aspects of the Services, you must register for and maintain an active personal user Services account ("Account"). *You must be at least 18 years of age*, or the age of legal majority in your jurisdiction (if different than 18), to obtain an Account. Account registration requires you to submit to Uber certain personal information, such as your name, address, mobile phone number and age, as well as at least one valid payment method supported by Uber. You agree to maintain accurate, complete, and up-to-date information in your Account. Your failure to maintain accurate, complete, and up-to-date Account information, including having an invalid or expired payment method on file, may result in your inability to access or use the Services. You are responsible for all activity that occurs under your Account, and you agree to maintain the security and secrecy of your Account username and password at all times. Unless otherwise permitted by Uber in writing, you may only possess one Account.

*User Requirements and Conduct.
The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18.* You may not authorize third parties to use your Account, and you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you. You may not assign or otherwise transfer your Account to any other person or entity. You agree to comply with all applicable laws when accessing or using the Services, and you may only access or use the Services for lawful purposes (e.g., no transport of unlawful or hazardous materials). You may not in your access or use of the Services cause nuisance, annoyance, inconvenience, or property damage, whether to the Third Party Provider or any other party. In certain instances you may be asked to provide proof of identity to access or use the Services, and you agree that you may be denied access to or use of the Services if you refuse to provide proof of identity.


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## Adieu

UBER can ask & deny services, as per user agreement

Meanwhilr y'all realize, don't ya, that --- despite the vexingly common "are you Uber?" question --- you most certainly ARE NOT uber, right??????


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## UberLaLa

Where's the part about Tips are allowed now? hmmmm...



SoiCowboy said:


> Received an email today, 11/16/16, pointing me to Uber's latest terms of service. Here is a portion:
> 
> *4. Access and Use of the Services
> User Accounts.*
> In order to use most aspects of the Services, you must register for and maintain an active personal user Services account ("Account"). *You must be at least 18 years of age*, or the age of legal majority in your jurisdiction (if different than 18), to obtain an Account. Account registration requires you to submit to Uber certain personal information, such as your name, address, mobile phone number and age, as well as at least one valid payment method supported by Uber. You agree to maintain accurate, complete, and up-to-date information in your Account. Your failure to maintain accurate, complete, and up-to-date Account information, including having an invalid or expired payment method on file, may result in your inability to access or use the Services. You are responsible for all activity that occurs under your Account, and you agree to maintain the security and secrecy of your Account username and password at all times. Unless otherwise permitted by Uber in writing, you may only possess one Account.
> 
> *User Requirements and Conduct.
> The Service is not available for use by persons under the age of 18.* You may not authorize third parties to use your Account, and you may not allow persons under the age of 18 to receive transportation or logistics services from Third Party Providers unless they are accompanied by you. You may not assign or otherwise transfer your Account to any other person or entity. You agree to comply with all applicable laws when accessing or using the Services, and you may only access or use the Services for lawful purposes (e.g., no transport of unlawful or hazardous materials). You may not in your access or use of the Services cause nuisance, annoyance, inconvenience, or property damage, whether to the Third Party Provider or any other party. In certain instances you may be asked to provide proof of identity to access or use the Services, and you agree that you may be denied access to or use of the Services if you refuse to provide proof of identity.


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## Wardell Curry

So Im seeing it is illegal to let others use your account? So you can't request rides for others even if they are over 18 cause a lot of my pax do that.


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## Sub Guy

*1.14 "User" means an end user authorized by Uber to use the Uber mobile application for the purpose of obtaining Transportation Services offered by Company's transportation provider customers.*

Here is my take on it as a Driver only who has until this thread never seen the rider Terms of Service.
I have nothing telling me I must ensure a rider is 18 or older.
I have agreed to be willing to provide a service to "*...an end user authorized by Uber ....*" (remember they are just providing the service of bringing rider and driver together and handling the financial transaction.
When my phone goes ding and UBER routes me a ride, it is reasonable for me to believe that I am being routed to "*...an end user authorized by Uber ....*" If in fear of my own safety I can decide to not enter into an agreement with the rider and provide the service" but most other reasons to deny providing a ride (gender, race, nationality, age, service animal, etc.) will get you terminated or are illegal. Why would Uber connect me with an end user that is not authorized by Uber to use the Uber mobile application? If for some reason, the credit card associated with the account expires and Uber doesn't catch it and allows the customer to request services on that card, the driver should get paid. We are not required/expected/allowed to check the card associated with the account and ensure it isn't expired. If a phone is stolen and used to request a ride on Uber, and the charge is later challenged by the card owner, Uber eats the loss, not the driver. The driver is not expected to call the bank and make sure the credit card is not stolen or ask for ID to make sure that the person we are transporting is actually the account owner. We don't demand to see a permission slip that they have been authorized to request a ride under someone's account. We take people all the time on accounts that are not theirs ( my wife's account, my sister's, etc.). There is an expectation that if Uber routes you the trip, the trip (and hence the rider) is authorized "by Uber" to ride.

Not having read the Rider TOS, I don't know what the process is to prevent unauthorized use of an account but I do know it is not my responsibility to make sure the rider is authorized. So why would it suddenly be my responsibility to ensure the rider is "old enough" to use the service? The courts determined that the sale of certain items were restricted by age and the merchants were required to ensure a person was of proper age but after several suits alleging discrimination, the clerks were not allowed to profile customers and hence the signage that "we Id everyone under 40". Uber CAN'T require us to ID passengers without adopting the same "40ish" standard or they open the door to discrimination lawsuits. It would not take long for a PAX to charge that the driver asked for ID and refused drive the PAX when they could not produce ID was motivated by some prejudice on the part of the driver. If it was in writing that we had to ensure the person was old enough they would be the target of the suit (since they have the big bucks).

Unfortunately, in today's day and age you can not grant or deny service based on your "opinion" that a person meets a certain standard or requirement. Everyone has to be treated equally (within reason ---- not too many folks 40 years old look under 18).


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## yojimboguy

Beur said:


> Make sure you cancel with the issue the rider is under age which is against Uber TOS or they may ding you for too many cancellations.


If you cancel the ride, it will count against you no matter what the reason. Uber has communicated this to me many times, both in person at the local office and through email.

I have repeatedly been threatened with deactivation for excessive cancellations, even when every single cancellation during the prior week was a no show. For those rides, I either cancel or turn off the app and go home, as I can't get any more pings because I'm still "in route" to pick up.


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