# Uber's "Fare Addendum" -- Drivers can charge the PAX



## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

Got a new "Fare Addendum" late last night. In the Fares; Gratuity section, it is stating we, the drivers, can add extra "fares" to the PAX.

This seems very interesting............

More AB5 counter measures?


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## losiglow (Dec 4, 2018)

Where did you find this?


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

Still trying to figure this out. It came across my messages last night from Uber.










Perhaps I read this wrong thinking about it a bit. At first I thought we, the driver, could charge the PAX, or add an "extra" fare to the PAX. However, thinking about this, perhaps this is just word manipulation. Where although We, the driver, charge the PAX a "Fare", but we, the driver, do not SET that fare. Uber SETS the base fare and WE then charge that to the PAX. Which now I'm thinking Uber is just using that wording to get around the whole contractor/employer thing. Not that WE can actually set the fare for our rides. Or add something else.

Not being a lawyer have to think to hard to actually decipher what the crap they are saying. But this seems to be the area of contention. Uber wants people (lawyers) to think it's the driver setting the fare and charging the PAX, but it's really a smoke screen. Uber controls all of that.

Ok, yea, that sounds more like it than what I posted originally...... interested see what others think.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

DriverMark said:


> Still trying to figure this out. It came across my messages last night from Uber.
> 
> View attachment 398230
> 
> ...


Kinda sounds like negotiating 
a return fee through the tip feature.
Are you in Calif or Ny?


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> Kinda sounds like negotiating
> a return fee through the tip feature.
> Are you in Calif or Ny?


When I read it at 2:00 AM this morning, that was exactly what I was thinking. Long pickup, return dead head fee from BFE, etc. I could "request" extra $5 or $10 or whatever and give PAX a reason for the up fare. Thinking now though this isn't the case. Could always hope though lol.

I'm in Utah.


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## DexNex (Apr 18, 2015)

DriverMark said:


> Still trying to figure this out. It came across my messages last night from Uber.
> 
> View attachment 398230
> 
> ...


You must not have filed your federal taxes as a Rideshare driver yet. We pay Uber for their service. Uber does not pay us.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

I don't think that's what it means at all. I think what they are trying to say in legalese is:

You charge a fare, we can add stuff on to the fare you charge the passenger, we take the part of the fare we want to. (I'm oversimplifying). I don't think they are giving you carte blanche to charge the pax whatever you want and certainly have provided no mechanism to do so.


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

DriverMark said:


> Still trying to figure this out. It came across my messages last night from Uber.
> 
> View attachment 398230
> 
> ...


Uber's entire premise as a company is that they are just a billing provider to the drivers. They match passenger requests with available drivers. They have always maintained that the passengers pay the drivers through the app, and that drivers pay Uber the service fee for the convenience of the app. That's why when we get our 1099 tax form it lists the total gross fares, and that's why we deduct Uber's service fee as a business expense.

While we as drivers never set the rates, by virtue of our driving we created the total fare the passenger paid - that is until Upfront Pricing came along. Now the passenger pays the same regardless of how we drive.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

DriverMark said:


> Still trying to figure this out. It came across my messages last night from Uber.
> 
> View attachment 398230
> 
> ...


Our previous agreement said that we have the right to charge passengers tolls, taxes, or other fees incurred during the provision of transportation services. Now tell me why I can't get reimbursed properly for the tolls and why I couldn't collect a damage fee



Atom guy said:


> Uber's entire premise as a company is that they are just a billing provider to the drivers.


Exactly! My original agreement specifically states they are a fee collection company.


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## Cdub2k (Nov 22, 2017)

I went into the Uber RIder APP and started playing with hypothetical rides just to see what was the difference yesterday when I signed the agreement. The main difference I saw was that Uber will give the rider a Price Range as opposed to a singular Upfront Price.


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

Cdub2k said:


> I went into the Uber RIder APP and started playing with hypothetical rides just to see what was the difference yesterday when I signed the agreement. The main difference I saw was that Uber will give the rider a Price Range as opposed to a singular Upfront Price. Check out the attachment. It's a hypothetical ride from UNO's campus to Kenner, LA.
> 
> I wonder is the wiggle room there for the Driver to negotiate?


You can also do that from Uber's website to estimate a ride. Not sure that is anything new.

Seems I mis-understood when I originally read what Uber was stating in this policy. I may have read an older form of this agreement, but would have been years ago and probably paid little attention. As others above have noted, it seems this just has to do with "legal" techno wording crap. Which essentially says.

Driver Charges the Rider X Fare (with all fees, tolls, blah blah blah), driver then pays Uber whatever Uber gets.

Although this is what Uber puts on paper as happening, it's not really what happens. Uber sets the price, collects and controls all charges and costs, and then they pay us our share once a week. Or we can get it at any time for a small fee. Eventually, you would think someone would challenge this wording in court. Or perhaps it is/has, but these things seem to take years upon years to ever get to a solution. CA is probably where all this will get hashed out in the coming years I'm sure.


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## Cdub2k (Nov 22, 2017)

DriverMark said:


> You can also do that from Uber's website to estimate a ride. Not sure that is anything new.
> 
> Seems I mis-understood when I originally read what Uber was stating in this policy. I may have read an older form of this agreement, but would have been years ago and probably paid little attention. As others above have noted, it seems this just has to do with "legal" techno wording crap. Which essentially says.
> 
> ...


The upfront pricing model had no ranges. It simply spit out an amount and the rider either agrees to pay or not. Now when I bring it up it gives you a range ($21-$29 or $35-$42). I looked up one ride that flat out gave me no estimate at all.


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## DriveLV (Aug 21, 2019)

Cdub2k said:


> The upfront pricing model had no ranges. It simply spit out an amount and the rider either agrees to pay or not. Now when I bring it up it gives you a range ($21-$29 or $35-$42). I looked up one ride that flat out gave me no estimate at all.


It looks like you're trying to schedule a ride for the future. I just tried that - and for a future scheduled ride I get a price range (presumably Uber wants to make sure if it's busy later that they will get their extra cut). When I put in a ride for right now it gives me an exact price.


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## Dome (Feb 10, 2019)

Just posted about this in another thread.. 
https://uberpeople.net/threads/another-new-agreement-uber.371189/post-5738927


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

So, you make a sign ... "Due to the price of gas going up to $5 a gallon, there will be a $1 surcharge on all rides of any length due at the beginning of your ride. Thank you, management."


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## 5☆OG (Jun 30, 2019)

I recieved 2 addendums in 24 hours...yes i agree whatever...as soon as i hit i score im outta here...


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Make sure that you optout of the of the arbitration agreement. I did not see anything in this TOS about Fares, Gratuities


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## Asificarewhatyoudontthink (Jul 6, 2017)

DriverMark said:


> Still trying to figure this out. It came across my messages last night from Uber.
> 
> View attachment 398230
> 
> ...


This is their claiming to only be the Payment Processor and we, the drivers, actually charge the customer the full fare and simply "allow" Uber to collect their portion as part of "processing" the payment. 
As opposed to reality that Uber sets those fees 100% and charges the customers.

Look at your 1099 and realize your GROSS earnings is as if you collected the full fare amount and the remitted payment to Uber for their fees. And then figure what that does to you when it comes to any income based (scaled charge) programs that only care about your gross.


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## 5☆OG (Jun 30, 2019)

They pull that shit every year i just go back and manually calculate what i was actually paid and use that number ,bunch of thieves


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

DriverMark said:


> Still trying to figure this out. It came across my messages last night from Uber.
> 
> View attachment 398230
> 
> ...


" Uber will Not take any part of your gratuity
EXCEPT AS DESCRIBED BELOW "

" DESCRIBED BELOW "!?!?

WHAT IS UBER TAKING NOW !


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## DriverRI (Jul 30, 2019)

I just got the new addendum, I’m in Texas.


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

Uber is just throwing spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks. The more they throw the longer it's going to take the lawyers to figure things out. Uber is just stalling.

of course we all know that the simple 80\20% split would take care of everything. Even if Uber's cut is 25%&#8230;

Give me my 75% or 80% and Uber can charge the customer whatever the heck they want!!!


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

Uber has always allowed Driver to negotiate 'return fare' with passenger, if the trip takes them far outside of their normal driving area.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

UberLaLa said:


> Uber has always allowed Driver to negotiate 'return fare' with passenger, if the trip takes them far outside of their normal driving area.


With no way built into the app of handling it. Or notification to customers that it can happen.

"i don't have any cash"

"That's not how uber works"

Better off just kicking them to the curb if they are going to far before you start the ride.


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## UberLaLa (Sep 6, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> With no way built into the app of handling it. Or notification to customers that it can happen.
> 
> "i don't have any cash"
> 
> ...


Nor saying it works or a good idea, more that it might be what they are saying in OP's note.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

My interpretation of the new agreement is that Uber is _saying_ "that WE use the app to charge the customer".


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> My interpretation of the new agreement is that Uber is _saying_ "that WE use the app to charge the customer".


Almost sounds like we could tack on the return fee for long rides or our own "surge price" to the ride before we get to the passenger. Then passenger would have an option to cancel the ride without a fee.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

You guys arn't getting it...

I'm seeing that we use the app to charge the customers, and uber just gives us the app to use and has no part in being in the transportation business.

This is just more BS to get around the ABC test in California.


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## Dome (Feb 10, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> You guys arn't getting it...
> 
> I'm seeing that we use the app to charge the customers, and uber just gives us the app to use and has no part in being in the transportation business.
> 
> This is just more BS to get around the ABC test in California.


Exactly.. However it's all contradictory. In one part of the ammendment regarding drivers agreeing to allow Uber to be a limited agent in charging and collecting the fare from the passengers, they stipulate that drivers agree to charge the passenger the amount they recommend. 1) drivers don't know what Uber "recommends" for a passenger trip. 2) if drivers are bound to Uber price recommendations, then it's not a recommendation.


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## 5☆OG (Jun 30, 2019)

trying to decipher these addendums is a sickness,,,why do people care? the deck is stacked..get out asap...


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## Illini (Mar 14, 2019)

I don't get the confusion. We're already charging a fare to the rider. Uber sets the prices, but the transaction is between the rider and driver, not the rider and Uber. Any add-ons or adjustments is done by Uber, not us.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Frontier Guy said:


> Make sure that you optout of the of the arbitration agreement. I did not see anything in this TOS about Fares, Gratuities


 Did you get 3 different Agreements or addendums to review ? There were 3 total. App access agreement, Fare's addendum and an Indemnity agreement


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## Dome (Feb 10, 2019)

Illini said:


> I don't get the confusion. We're already charging a fare to the rider. Uber sets the prices, but the transaction is between the rider and driver, not the rider and Uber. Any add-ons or adjustments is done by Uber, not us.


Do you as a driver really charge the passenger a fare? Do you even know where they're going to determine cost upfront? I've never used the service as a passenger, but do passengers know that drivers are supposedly charging them for the fare (is this disclosed to them by Uber in a passenger agreement or each time they request a trip)?

If drivers are charging the passengers, then I'm sure we'd all agree the fares need to be adjusted up (at minimum) to no less than what was being charged 4 years ago. However since drivers have no say in the rates, then we're not truly charging them.


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## Boca Ratman (Jun 6, 2018)

Dome said:


> Exactly.. However it's all contradictory. In one part of the ammendment regarding drivers agreeing to allow Uber to be a limited agent in charging and collecting the fare from the passengers, they stipulate that drivers agree to charge the passenger the amount they recommend. 1) drivers don't know what Uber "recommends" for a passenger trip. 2) if drivers are bound to Uber price recommendations, then it's not a recommendation.


In the tos, we are always free to negotiate a fare lower than uber's "recommendation".


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Boca Ratman said:


> In the tos, we are always free to negotiate a fare lower than uber's "recommendation".


And as they now state their fare is only a recommendation. &#128517;&#128517;


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

Boca Ratman said:


> In the tos, we are always free to negotiate a fare lower than uber's "recommendation".


OK then, a trip from ORD to downtown Chicago will now be a dollar over Uber's and Chicago's cost plus a cash tip equaling $1.50 a mile and $.50 a minute!

Let's see how that one plays out&#8230; LOL


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

5☆OG said:


> trying to decipher these addendums is a sickness,,,why do people care? the deck is stacked..get out asap...


AMEN BROTHER.
Preach it.
THAT is the answer.

Get the **** out. 
Let these crazy bastiids play their reindeer games ... without the sane ones.

NEWS FLASH folks:
We are in the middle of one of the best economic environments of our time.
A job at WalMart is better than a job at Uber. Way, way better.
At WallyWorld you have benefits, and they do a great job of promoting from within.

There ARE better jobs out there.



Boca Ratman said:


> In the tos, we are always free to negotiate a fare lower than uber's "recommendation".


Unless and until the pax complains about it, then you are deactivated.


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

DriverMark said:


> Still trying to figure this out. It came across my messages last night from Uber.
> 
> View attachment 398230
> 
> ...


It is just reiterating the bit that Uber is taking the fee on our behalf, that it is basically us charging the pax but Uber collects the fee. No more, no less.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> Unless and until the pax complains about it, then you are deactivated.


Only if you charge higher. Notice the TOS says you have the right to negotiate a LOWER fare. We cannot negotiate a higher fare


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## DriveLV (Aug 21, 2019)

Daisey77 said:


> Only if you charge higher. Notice the TOS says you have the right to negotiate a LOWER fare. We cannot negotiate a higher fare


Anyone tried knocking $5 off the fare in exchange for $5 cash tip? How do you enter the adjustment in the app? I assume it only reduces the fare paid to us, not the cut that Uber gets?


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

DriveLV said:


> Anyone tried knocking $5 off the fare in exchange for $5 cash tip? How do you enter the adjustment in the app? I assume it only reduces the fare paid to us, not the cut that Uber gets?


You are correctamundo LOL there is an option in the app for you to refund the rider. Our terms of service says they have to honor it, in good faith. In fact, I'm pretty damn sure that some pissed off drivers made a statement by doing just this. The only problem is you have to be willing to eat the pay yourself but drivers at one point we're refunding every passenger their fare LOL I don't know if they just did this for one day or what exactly happened but if you think about it, if we all did this, that would be some funny shit. Can you imagine if one day we all just started working for free? I wonder how long Uber would let that continue before publicly addressing the issue &#128517;


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## DriveLV (Aug 21, 2019)

Daisey77 said:


> You are correctamundo LOL there is an option in the app for you to refund the rider.


I've seen the refund pax option. I assumed it was to refund the fare completely. Does it allow you to enter a specific partial amount to refund the pax?


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

How is this thing supposed to work? I see no option or setting anywhere in the app for this.


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## tonytone1908 (Aug 5, 2019)

From what I gathered in another thread somewhere else and going through the rider app myself, it is now an estimated fare dependent on the actual time and mileage of the ride and they take a 25% cut not including their booking and/or service fees. If you get stuck in traffic with a PAX now you are actually getting paid for those minutes. They actually present the rider with a rate card detailing all the charges. I would think this would help us especially on short rides in rush hour traffic. No more sitting in traffic for a half hour for 4 bucks. I could be mistaken and still not sure whether I think this is beneficial or not but hopefully it works out in our favor. I do think the customer will be more aware of screwing around, especially at a stop whether it was scheduled or not, and that time is money. I'll have to start the rides ASAP and hold off on finishing them til everyone is out of the car and mayyybee a little bit longer? lol


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

DriverMark said:


> Still trying to figure this out. It came across my messages last night from Uber.
> 
> View attachment 398230
> 
> ...


The wording hasn't changed so far as I can see. It just says you can charge the rider through uber. Not that you can control WHAT you charge or change it. It used to say you could charge less...lol. There were a lot of threads about this btw.

Anyway, it's not new and I guess you just never read it before.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

DriveLV said:


> I've seen the refund pax option. I assumed it was to refund the fare completely. Does it allow you to enter a specific partial amount to refund the pax?


It may be. I honestly have never tried it. I don't know what happens when you click on it. you could always call them. Lol I would think it would only make sense to refund them the whole fare otherwise you're not going to hurt Uber at all because they're going to refund out of your part first.



Fargle said:


> How is this thing supposed to work? I see no option or setting anywhere in the app for this.


If you go to the trip>fare details>help that will take you to the dashboard and then you can click on trip issues and one of the options is refund my passenger



tonytone1908 said:


> . If you get stuck in traffic with a PAX now you are actually getting paid for those minutes.


 have you drivers not been getting paid miles and minutes in your Market?


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## Wonkytonk (Jan 28, 2018)

tohunt4me said:


> " Uber will Not take any part of your gratuity
> EXCEPT AS DESCRIBED BELOW "
> 
> " DESCRIBED BELOW "!?!?
> ...


Only your dignity, self respect, and sense of self worth, so shut up, sit down, and take it like a good little ant.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Daisey77 said:


> have you drivers not been getting paid miles and minutes in your Market?


Define "paid"


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

UberBastid said:


> Define "paid"


Do you guys have a set amount you get paid per minute and per mile?


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Uber pool trips, based on the fare addendum, will be even less profitable, just say no to pool rides.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Daisey77 said:


> Do you guys have a set amount you get paid per minute and per mile?


yes
It is permanently set at: Whatever Uber wants to pay us.


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Daisey77 said:


> If you go to the trip>fare details>help that will take you to the dashboard and then you can click on trip issues and one of the options is refund my passenger


That's rather pointless. I've been able to do that for at least a year, albeit it was convoluted.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Fargle said:


> That's rather pointless. I've been able to do that for at least a year, albeit it was convoluted.


Hey I was just saying how some drivers were refunding rides to the passengers as a way to stick it to Uber and people are asking how to do it. Don't Kill the Messenger&#129335;&#127996;


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Daisey77 said:


> Hey I was just saying how some drivers were refunding rides to the passengers as a way to stick it to Uber and people are asking how to do it. Don't Kill the Messenger&#129335;&#127996;


I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you. My intent was more of "there they go again, the damned liars". The way it read to me when it rolled into my app was that drivers could add a surcharge to rides, but it was written so weasely that refunding passengers was the only thing allowed.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> With no way built into the app of handling it. Or notification to customers that it can happen.
> 
> "i don't have any cash"
> 
> ...


Ummm nope.... Kicking them out doesn't allow for rides like this one... Which essentially equalled 40+ an hour. When u count the $20 he paid for gas as well on his shell card...

Always negotiate... Worst thing that can happen you cancel the trip and take the next ping....












SatMan said:


> Almost sounds like we could tack on the return fee for long rides or our own "surge price" to the ride before we get to the passenger. Then passenger would have an option to cancel the ride without a fee.


I do this to all long runs. Or we don't go. I decided a long time back it's $50 per 100 miles for return charge or we just don't go. No sweat off my back either way..


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## Las Vegas Dude (Sep 3, 2018)

Daisey77 said:


> You are correctamundo LOL there is an option in the app for you to refund the rider. Our terms of service says they have to honor it, in good faith. In fact, I'm pretty damn sure that some pissed off drivers made a statement by doing just this. The only problem is you have to be willing to eat the pay yourself but drivers at one point we're refunding every passenger their fare LOL I don't know if they just did this for one day or what exactly happened but if you think about it, if we all did this, that would be some funny shit. Can you imagine if one day we all just started working for free? I wonder how long Uber would let that continue before publicly addressing the issue &#128517;


All you would be doing is hurting yourself by refunding all the rides. If you refunded all the rides you would be hurting Uber's profit off you but wouldn't really be costing Uber anything as there is no effort on Uber's part setting up the ride through the automated app. Obviously if all drivers did it longterm it would cause a problem as Uber's revenue would stop but just short-term Uber wouldn't even notice it as rides fluctuate everyday.


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## zephyr43 (Apr 13, 2019)

OM


SatMan said:


> OK then, a trip from ORD to downtown Chicago will now be a dollar over Uber's and Chicago's cost plus a cash tip equaling $1.50 a mile and $.50 a minute!
> 
> Let's see how that one plays out&#8230; LOL


OMG, I'll have to deal with germ spreading cash again.


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## SatMan (Mar 20, 2017)

zephyr43 said:


> OM
> OMG, I'll have to deal with germ spreading cash again.


I take Zello, Square and a few others....Who carries cash nowadays&#8230;


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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

SatMan said:


> I take Zello, Square and a few others....Who carries cash nowadays&#8230;


Paypal will give you a free magnetic swiper to plug into your phone's 3.5mm audio jack.



Dekero said:


> Ummm nope.... Kicking them out doesn't allow for rides like this one... Which essentially equalled 40+ an hour. When u count the $20 he paid for gas as well on his shell card...
> 
> Always negotiate... Worst thing that can happen you cancel the trip and take the next ping....
> 
> I do this to all long runs. Or we don't go. I decided a long time back it's $50 per 100 miles for return charge or we just don't go. No sweat off my back either way..


How do you do this and not run into a problem with someone who pays the return charge, but then complains to Uber about that, possibly embellishing with words like "extortion", "ripoff", or "holdup"?


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Fargle said:


> Paypal will give you a free magnetic swiper to plug into your phone's 3.5mm audio jack.


SQUARE does too. The magnetic swiper is free. They charge for the chip reader one though


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Fargle said:


> Paypal will give you a free magnetic swiper to plug into your phone's 3.5mm audio jack.
> 
> 
> How do you do this and not run into a problem with someone who pays the return charge, but then complains to Uber about that, possibly embellishing with words like "extortion", "ripoff", or "holdup"?


With the words Like TOS AND TERMS OF SERVICE, Which allow for us to negotiate return milage and charge for return gas and such on long trips clearly stated in tos. I'm not extorting anyone... I offered to cancel first. But here's the real question...

How come when we complain to Uber that $56 for 100 miles with no return charge this deadheading back it's not considered a rip-off or a holdup and extortion by Uber...

Bottom line I DON'T WORK FOR FREE.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Dekero said:


> With the words Like TOS AND TERMS OF SERVICE, Which allow for us to negotiate return milage and charge for return gas and such on long trips clearly stated in tos. I'm not extorting anyone... I offered to cancel first. But here's the real question...
> 
> How come when we complain to Uber that $56 for 100 miles with no return charge this deadheading back it's not considered a rip-off or a holdup and extortion by Uber...
> 
> Bottom line I DON'T WORK FOR FREE.


Where in the terms of service does it say we can do this? I don't recall seeing it but I often hear of drivers saying this.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Daisey77 said:


> Where in the terms of service does it say we can do this? I don't recall seeing it but I often hear of drivers saying this.


You'll have to excuse me not spending the next 30 mins finding the paragraph just for proof.

Let's just go with every you tube rideshare driver has posted about doing it. Beyond that if you want the exact terms I think someone has just posted it in regards to pay and the new tos agreement.... But I'm not going to waste my time proving it to anyone.... Don't believe..drive back for free .. matters not to me.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Dekero said:


> You'll have to excuse me not spending the next 30 mins finding the paragraph just for proof.
> 
> Let's just go with every you tube rideshare driver has posted about doing it. Beyond that if you want the exact terms I think someone has just posted it in regards to pay and the new tos agreement.... But I'm not going to waste my time proving it to anyone.... Don't believe..drive back for free .. matters not to me.


But you've actually seen this "paragraph" within your terms of service ? Or are you going off of the theory, since it's on the internet it must be true?


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