# Newer car vs beater



## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

From a purely economical point of view. Which is better?

I'm talking cheap models, compacts, etc.

As cars stop depreciating in value, repair costs usually start to rise. But what's the sweet spot for RS/delivery?

I'm not convinced a beater is always better (unless someone can do their own repairs). 

If someone pys $8000 less for a car, but ends up paying for costly repairs every few months. Then could it be better just to get something closer to new with less headaches?


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

reg barclay said:


> If someone pys $8000 less for a car, but ends up paying for costly repairs every few months.


This is a false dilemma. It's not a case of the only options being a) expensive car & mechanical reliability or b) cheap car and mechanical unreliability. It's also very possible to buy very cheap cars that are very reliable.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

elelegido said:


> This is a false dilemma. It's not a case of the only options being a) expensive car & mechanical reliability or b) cheap car and mechanical unreliability. It's also very possible to buy very cheap cars that are very reliable.


Yes, I wasn't talking expensive. I mean something around $10k, close to new. Which is probably harder to find now than a few years ago.

I bought such a car a few years ago. And spend about $2500 on maintenance and repairs during the first 85k miles (much of that routine stuff like tires and oil changes) Had I bought an older car and paid for all necessary repairs over that period, I'm not sure I would have saved much total.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> From a purely economical point of view. Which is better?
> 
> I'm talking cheap models, compacts, etc.
> 
> ...


I'm on my second car right now
I bought used newer cars and drove the crap out of em
The first one was 12,500 and I got over 200k out of it
I got 3,500 when I got rid of it with minimal downtime
If you bought a cheaper burned up already car
The money that you would have lost to downtime and repairs 
would be way more than you saved by buying the beater
Just my 30k rides humble opinion....


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

reg barclay said:


> Had I bought an older car and paid for all necessary repairs over that period, I'm not sure I would have saved much total.


If you buy the right car, there won't necessarily be much more repair expense required on an older car. It's very possible that the savings achieved through lower depreciation of the older car will be several times greater than any increased repair expense.


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## UberExplorer (12 mo ago)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> I'm on my second car right now
> I bought used newer cars and drove the crap out of em
> The first one was 12,500 and I got over 200k out of it
> I got 3,500 when I got rid of it with minimal downtime
> ...


I agree with this except for 1 thing. Currently the price of cars is off the walls nuts and you should avoid buying any car right now...

but yeah I agree buy something a couple years old that is nice enough that you want to spend time in it, take care of it and put 1 to 2 hundred thousand miles on it but not a beater. You can claim depreciation of the vehicle on your taxes when you sell it if you do it correctly. If you have another job where you are paying into taxes then you should be able to get money back. 

Typically I try to spend less than 20k on a car for ride share looking for miles between 50-100k.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

elelegido said:


> The rationale behind buying an older car isn't to save on repairs and maintenance, it's to avoid depreciation.


I understand that. That's what I was discussing originally. Depreciation (newer car) vs repairs (older car).

What I meant to say is if you add the total I paid for the newer car (around $11,000), plus a few years of maintenance/repairs (around $2500). I'm not sure it's much more than the I'd have paid total for a beater plus more repairs, over the same period.

Of course, if someone can do their own maintenance and repairs that's a different game. I sold an old car (120k miles) for cheap to a friend who does his own work. He was fixing something every 3-6 months over a few years. Had he paid a mechanic for all that work, he might have been able to lease a new car for the same money.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

reg barclay said:


> What I meant to say above is if you add the total I paid for the newer (small) car plus a few years repairs (around $13500). I'm not sure it's much more than the I'd have paid for a similar older car with more repairs, over the same period.


That's assuming that an older/cheaper car will necessarily require more repairs, though. That assumption isn't necessarily valid. I ran a Camry for 120,000 miles, taking it from 230,000 to 350,000 and the only repair items it required were a 12v battery and front brake discs and pads. It cost me 1.5 cents per mile in maintenance and repairs. After that I ran an old 2008 $4,000 Yaris for 40,000 miles and all it required during that time in repairs was a $35 wheel bearing.

Of course, it has to be the right car. Buying a Chevy Cruze, for example, with 200,00 miles on it and hoping to take it to 300,000 would not be an optimal strategy.

The older car / newer car choice isn't an exact science. There is a risk that even an older Toyota will require repairs that exceed any savings in depreciation. But it's a calculated risk and, in my experience, the odds of coming out ahead financially are on the side of buying older Japanese.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

elelegido said:


> That's assuming that an older/cheaper car will necessarily require more repairs, though. That assumption isn't necessarily valid. I ran a Camry for 120,000 miles, taking it from 230,000 to 350,000 and the only repair items it required were a 12v battery and front brake discs and pads. It cost me 1.5 cents per mile in maintenance and repairs. After that I ran an old 2008 $4,000 Yaris for 40,000 miles and all it required during that time in repairs was a $35 wheel bearing.
> 
> Of course, it has to be the right car. Buying a Chevy Cruze, for example, with 200,00 miles on it and hoping to take it to 300,000 would not be an optimal strategy.
> 
> The older car / newer car choice isn't an exact science. There is a risk that even an older Toyota will require repairs that exceed any savings in depreciation. But it's a calculated risk and, in my experience, the odds of coming out ahead financially are on the side of buying older Japanese.


Thanks for the input. I'm looking at two older cars locally, a Civic and Camry. Both with around 220k miles, but low asking prices. And considering if either might be worth it.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

reg barclay said:


> Thanks for the input. I'm looking at two older cars locally, a Civic and Camry. Both with around 220k miles, but low asking prices. And considering if either might be worth it.


It's essentially a gamble, so a lot depends on your approach to risk. I've got a lot of experience buying older cars so I feel pretty comfortable doing it and it's always worked out fine. That's not to say that the next one won't, though.

I'd go for the Camry every time, but that's not to say Civics are bad.


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## bobby747 (Dec 29, 2015)

You see with the pay now where a 4 dr cheap new toyota is $23,000. it dont make sense, back in time 2015- i brought a msrp car 25k- 21k net price , the pay was so good, i payed it off by paying $300 a week aside each week. took me 15 months on a budget..but my pay was very hi ..$2000+ each week. and i never did like many do 7 days a week 12 hour days. sure some weeks i would do the 7th day if a holiday or game or event was playing.
i think a $10,000 pruis or camry is a sure thing...buy with 70k on it. drive it to 250k
also i have 50k on my 19 van, i got a bumper to bumper watt. for $85 a month..reason its a dodge caravan...
i got just over 20,000 rides and never do over 60 anymore..but i do xl. and wav..long trips i dont want or need. i have private pax and firms to.

8 year driver- all with 5 yrs plus, see this gig is getting worst and never invest in stocks while crashing...thier will be no upside..what do you do when you buy that car you use fulltime for this gig and you get deactvated..


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Buying any car is an expensive proposition. If I buy a $6000 car and it lasts 3 years, that’s no different than buying an $18000 car that lasts for 9 years

I’d opt for the newer, more expensive car

Here are some drivers waiting at the lot at the ft myers airport. 5 suburban all in a row. Clearly they think differently than most of us here









no sooner did I take this shot another full sized suv drove by this one a Yukon XL


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## Uberyouber (Jan 16, 2017)

Buy a Corolla...


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

oldfart said:


> If I buy a $6000 car and it lasts 3 years, that’s no different than buying an $18000 car that lasts for 9 years


This is a circular argument. The conclusion is the same as the premise. In other words, the thing that you are trying to prove (the two cars cost the same per year) is the same as the assumption that you make (the two cars cost the same per year)

_"If two cars cost the same per year, then their costs are no different"_

Another example of a circular argument is:

_"If I use 10 apples in this pie, then this pie will contain 10 apples"_

These are hypotheticals that offer no insight.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

reg barclay said:


> From a purely economical point of view. Which is better?
> 
> I'm talking cheap models, compacts, etc.
> 
> ...


My market, 8 years old & you age out.
City Ordinance. Applies to Uber,taxi,Limo.
So, if I buy a 6 year old car, I can only work it for 2 years.

Any downtime for MAINTENENCE = an earnings loss.

I buy a new car, I can run it for 8 years.

Should have NO repairs for first 5-6 years .


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

oldfart said:


> Buying any car is an expensive proposition. If I buy a $6000 car and it lasts 3 years, that’s no different than buying an $18000 car that lasts for 9 years
> 
> I’d opt for the newer, more expensive car
> 
> ...


Do those qualify for Uber black ?


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Well it's market dependant. Up north an older car will turn into a rust bucket much sooner than down south.

Another thing to consider is what levels of service actually have business in your town. Technically a $50,000 SUV will get you the best per-mile rates in Orlando, but in terms of what pings actually exist you're probably better off in a pos mini van.


The final result is that for doing uber/lyft here, your best bet is a 5-6 year old minivan of the Toyota variety as they hold up well into high mileage.

But that's Orlando, where's there's loads of 4+ passenger fares.

But then again I drive a 12 year Old Sedan and get 358% of uber base rates per mile and 562% of time (but only while at redlights, stoplights, under 25 MPH or waiting for passengers) because I got taxi insurance and a $10.00 sign off Alibaba.

An extra $350 a month gets me an extra 100% per hour and less miles driven.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

tohunt4me said:


> Do those qualify for Uber black ?


We don’t have Uber black in Fort Myers/naples but there is Uber premier at the airport and within Naples. Most of these guys do private rides too


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

tohunt4me said:


> My market, 8 years old & you age out.
> City Ordinance. Applies to Uber,taxi,Limo.
> So, if I buy a 6 year old car, I can only work it for 2 years.
> 
> ...


I do mainly Doordash, so age doesn't really matter. I could use the Flinstone car as long as the food stays warm and arrives on time.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

elelegido said:


> This is a circular argument. The conclusion is the same as the premise. In other words, the thing that you are trying to prove (the two cars cost the same per year) is the same as the assumption that you make (the two cars cost the same per year)
> 
> _"If two cars cost the same per year, then their costs are no different"_
> 
> ...


What it suggests to me is that it makes no difference whether you drive a beater of a newer used car; financially. As you say, 10 apples = 10 apples. But then there is this, I’d rather eat an apple pie than ten just picked apples. And as applied to cars, a car is a car, but I’d rather drive a newer used car than a beater


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## Schmanthony (Nov 18, 2017)

Even in the current crazy car market, a very well maintained older Honda or Toyota -- with maintenance records and avoiding certain engines and transmissions that were problematic like you should do with any car purchase -- is the way to go for maximum rideshare profits. Bonus points if the presumably automatic transmission has been regularly serviced with fluid changes (most have not been... but with most Hondas/Toyota even if you start doing that at 100k - 150k mi you're probably still in good shape). Keep giving the car everything it needs, don't scrimp on cheap parts or materials, and the vehicle will hold an amazing amount of value even when you're done with it after putting another 100k - 200k miles on it on top of what it already had.

Any car you buy right now _and keep for several years_ is going to depreciate many thousands of dollars even if you drain all the fluids and store it in your garage. Used Hondas and Toyotas will depreciate less than anything else. Exotics and rare collectibles can be an exception to this but obviously we're not talking about those.

I would never recommend that anyone buy a brand new car for rideshare nor would I recommend getting a "beater". A car is not a beater just because it is 10 years old.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

oldfart said:


> What it suggests to me is that it makes no difference whether you drive a beater of a newer used car; financially.


No, you haven't understood what I wrote.

When you say, _"If I buy a $6000 car and it lasts 3 years, that’s no different than buying an $18000 car that lasts for 9 years"_, you are assuming that a $6,000 car lasts 3 years and also assuming that an $18,000 car lasts for 9 years, which may or may not be true. One could equally make an assumption that the $6,000 car lasts 4 or maybe 5 years, not 3; in which case the $6,000 car would be cheaper on a yearly basis.

Another circular argument example: _If I buy a new Tesla for $20,000 and I buy a new Corolla for $20,000 then that shows that a new Tesla costs as much as a new Corolla_. This statement is unsound for exactly the same reason that your statement above is - the claim that both cars cost the same is based _only _on the claim that both cars cost the same.

Bottom line: you can't draw meaningful conclusions that are based only on assumptions.

Maybe someone else will be able to explain it in a simpler way than I.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Ted Fink said:


> Simple: Buy a 4 year old Honda or Toyota with 50-100k on it. Both will last 300k easy. You'll pay 1/3 of the cost of new, and have 2/3 of the life left in it.


4 year old Toyota with 50k on it for 1/3 the price of new?!?

If I could buy 2018 Camrys with 50k miles for $10,000 then forget rideshare; I would buy 10 and flip them for immediately for $20,000 each!


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

elelegido said:


> No, you haven't understood what I wrote.
> 
> When you say, _"If I buy a $6000 car and it lasts 3 years, that’s no different than buying an $18000 car that lasts for 9 years"_, you are assuming that a $6,000 car lasts 3 years and also assuming that an $18,000 car lasts for 9 years, which may or may not be true. One could equally make an assumption that the $6,000 car lasts 4 or maybe 5 years, not 3; in which case the $6,000 car would be cheaper on a yearly basis.
> 
> ...


I understand completely. But if we can’t make certain assumptions we can’t answer the question posed by the op

“ from a financial perspective which is best. A newer used car or a beater” 

everything we do and every descision we make is based on certain assumptions. Every scientific “proof” starts with a thesis. 

to answer the question I think we need to start with some facts.

Let’s say the beater in question is 10 years old with 350,000 miles, and some deferred maintenance needed. (like my car). For sale for $3000. I’ve examined the service records and I believe with another $3000 spent on deferred maintenance I can drive this car two more years (to 500000 miles).

or I could by a 5 year old car similar to the beater with only 70000 miles on the clock for $25000 I think I can drive this car for 6 more years at 70000 miles a year, to 500000 miles

the beater will cost me $3000 a year and the newer car $4000 a year

in this case, based on my assumptions the beater wins

the point is I wasn’t trying to prove anything in my post that you are so eager to critique. What I’m trying to say is “it depends on your individual assumptions” and you really won’t know which is better until sometime down the road

by the way I ask my self a similar question every time I pass a used car lot. Should I buy another car or continue to drive the beater I already own? So far I’ve decided to keep the beater


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Ted Fink said:


> I didn't say what cars were selling for, or what was on the market.


It's not really a big deal, but yes you did. You said you could get a four year old Toyota (that's a 2018) with 50k (or 60k, 70k, 80k, 90k or 100k) for 1/3 of new price. Which isn't so. Used cars _are_ good value, but they're not that good.


> PS. I didn't say 50k


Yeah..... you did.


> I said 50-100


Exactly. If you say you can get a car with 50-100k on it, then that means that you can get a car with 50k on it.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

Buy a 4 year old Honda or Toyota with 50-100k on it. IF. YOU. CAN.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

oldfart said:


> I understand completely. But if we can’t make certain assumptions we can’t answer the question posed by the op


Of course the question can be answered without making assumptions. It can be answered by giving him real costs from real cars run over meaningful amounts of time, together with the caveat of risk.


> everything we do and every descision we make is based on certain assumptions.


Of course decisions may or may not be made based on assumptions. However, that does not change the fact that valid conclusions cannot be made only from assumptions.


> Every scientific “proof” starts with a thesis.


I think you mean hypothesis


> Let’s say the beater in question is 10 years old with 350,000 miles, and some deferred maintenance needed. (like my car). For sale for $3000. I’ve examined the service records and I believe with another $3000 spent on deferred maintenance I can drive this car two more years (to 500000 miles).
> 
> or I could by a 5 year old car similar to the beater with only 70000 miles on the clock for $25000 I think I can drive this car for 6 more years at 70000 miles a year, to 500000 miles
> 
> ...


Again, we could assume any made-up numbers we want. That doesn't inform anything, however.


> the point is I wasn’t trying to prove anything in my post


In that case, you succeeded.


> What I’m trying to say is “it depends on your individual assumptions”


No. The costs of running a car don't depend on assumptions you made before buying the car. If the transmission seizes on my car it won't be because I did or did not make assumptions.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Ted Fink said:


> 50-100 does NOT mean I can get 50.


Then why claim 50 - 100 if you can't get one with 50?


> And the whole thing was not meant to be taken that literally


Then why give any numbers at all, if they're not accurate?

The OP is looking to buy a real car with hard-earned money - there's no point in having him go out and waste his time looking for a 4 year old Toyota with 50k on it for 1/3 of the new price when such a car doesn't exist.


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## Schmanthony (Nov 18, 2017)

I bought 2 Camrys last year in Chicago.

The first one I bought in April. It was a 2017 SE with 78k mi. Out the door for $16500 at a dealer.

In September the car was totalled in an accident (100% not my fault) with 92k mi. Insurance wrote me a check for $17500. I felt the check was fair. There were a few examples of similar Camrys on the market for that price at that time.

But by this time I had already second guessed my initial purchase, and for $1000 more I felt it was too big of an investment for an UberX car. Especially since I expected the rideshare market to slow down soon from the Golden Age of $50/hr+ every day of Q1-Q3 2021, which it certainly did!

In October I decided instead to buy a 2011 XLE with 138k mi. Out the door for $10000 at a dealer. I banked the remaining $7500 of the check.

Other than some initial maintenance to catch the car up and prepare it for heavy duty use, it hasn't needed anything. It's run like a champ every day. It started when it was -7 F one morning. It hasn't been in the shop yet other than for a set of tires. All other maintenance I did myself: plugs, belts, filters, 2 oil changes, flush power steering, repair PS leak, drain/fill trans fluid twice. Tires were $950 including replacement of a bad TPMS sensor. All other maintenance came to a couple hundred bucks. It now has 146k mi.

With well over $6000 remaining of my insurance check that I can use to maintain my 2011 Camry, I feel that I'm in a better position with this choice than if I had bought a 2017 with 50k less mi. 50k mi is nothing for a Camry. The 2011 will probably age out of service for U/L in a few years and still be in great running condition. At that point I'll pass it down to my next of kin or sell it for a decent chunk of cash, maybe $3K - $4k.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Schmanthony said:


> I bought 2 Camrys this year in Chicago.
> 
> The first one I bought in April. It was a 2017 SE with 78k mi. Out the door for $16500 at a dealer.
> 
> ...


Absolutely.

I would go a step even further and be looking at Camry in the range of $5,000 - $6000. That used to be $3000 - $4000 before the pandemic.


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## Schmanthony (Nov 18, 2017)

elelegido said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> I would go a step even further and be looking at Camry in the range of $5,000 - $6000. That used to be $3000 - $4000 before the pandemic.


There's almost zero chance you can find a Camry anywhere near Chicago (or probably anywhere in the US really) for $5k - $6k in good enough shape and a late enough model to be used for U/L. You'd have to be lucky enough to come across a very stupid seller. Or buy one with over 300k - 400k mi maybe... but that could be pushing it even for a Camry. Most folks with a 300k - 400k mi Camry that still runs well without any issues are probably not wanting to give it up right now.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Schmanthony said:


> There's almost zero chance you can find a Camry anywhere near Chicago (or probably anywhere in the US really) for $5 - $6 in good enough shape and a late enough model to be used for U/L. You'd have to be lucky enough to come across a very stupid seller. Or buy one with over 400k mi maybe... but that could be pushing it even for a Camry. Most folks with a 400k mi Camry that still runs well are probably not wanting to give it up right now.


You do have to look long and hard to get a good deal. The frequencies of cars at particular prices are on a bell curve - if you want the super-low prices then you have to be patient and wait for a well-priced and decent example to come along. You can still get a decent Camry Hybrid for $5k - $6k in my area, if you're patient.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Ted Fink said:


> Good lord you are a delight. For the millionth time, my original post was very general and described what I try to do normally.


Nope, that's a backpedal attempt. You didn't say, _"what I normally try to do is..."_, you said, _"Simple: Buy a 4 year old Honda or Toyota with 50-100k on it.... you're getting 200k for 1/3 of the price to buy new"_. Which is a recommendation.


> I have not tried to do it this year in this market.


In that case, when given a market update about what prices actually are now, with current conditions, it would have been better to say something like, "'Ok, thanks, I didn't know that prices had changed so much", instead launching into a backpedalling _I never said this and never said that _attempt_._


> To the OP: Sorry for all the jackassery. Long story short try to buy a good used car. I'm fu$king out. If I wanted to hear this kind of nitpicking bullshit I would talk to my wife! SEE YA


You seem to be a little flustered. Anyway, my point is simply that if the OP is clearly asking about real-world costs because he intends to buy a car, then it makes little sense to give numbers that you admit that you know are inaccurate and are not real-world. It's not nitpicking when someone is about to spend real money and when the information you offer about the cost of buying a car is not just a little off, but 50% less than actual.

Also, there's no need to get upset when someone corrects you online. It's how we learn.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Ted Fink said:


> You just can't let it go, can you? Do you know what Mia Culpa means? It means "my bad".
> 
> You sir are a pompous little **. * I have already stated and rephrased my original post to include "if you can". You can go* ** yourself, and the horse you rode in on.


I'm definitely sensing anger issues.


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## Ted Fink (Mar 19, 2018)

elelegido said:


> I'm definitely sensing anger issues.


Yes, when people act like dumb ****s, it makes me angry. Have a nice day sir.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Ted Fink said:


> Yes, when people act like dumb ****s, it makes me angry. Have a nice day sir.


You too! Have a great day!

One thing that I have learned in life is that _I_ am the master of my own emotions. I get angry only if I choose to get angry.

Self-control is an essential step if emotional maturity is a desired goal. Anger is a negative emotion, and I reject it where possible. I certainly wouldn't get myself all riled up simply because someone on an internet forum disagrees with me.


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