# Needed: A little help explaining pay statement



## Aric Boger (Sep 25, 2015)

Hello. First time driver for a car sharing system. Need a little help clarifying Uber's calculations to see if I'm understanding correctly. I did my first drives yesterday, 5 in total. When I login in to my account today, all 5 show up (great!). When viewing the main page, it shows "summary" at top and "trips" below. All of the trips look correct. The "summary" at top indicates a 5-trip fare total of $28.97... all looks fine up to this point.

Next, I click on the link for the next pay statement. The first line item on the pay statement is "Fare", which is $23.97 (a $5 difference from the total on the main page). Underneath "fare" there is a rider fee that shows a $5 increase and then a $5 deduction (so a net of zero), and from there is subtracts my Uber partner fee.

Contrary to the fact that the homepage tells me my fares generated $28.97, the pay statement says they generated $23.97. It appears that Uber is deducting $1 per trip from my fare total and THEN afterwards also deducts their 25%. On the pay statement page, it gives the impression that the driver fee is an in-and-out that has no impact. However, they've in fact already deducted this $5 from the fare total that shows on the homepage. 

Granted, the pay hasn't completed yet, so it's possible what I "think" is going to happen doesn't, but it sure looks like Uber has intentions of dinging me $1 per trip as a rider fee, and then also deducting their 25% afterwards. 

For anyone who's not a new user, is how the math is supposed to work or is this some kind of glitch? Thanks in advance for any insight.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

1. This is not "car sharing". Get that in your pipe and smoke it right now. You are an underpaid, underappreciated, underinsured taxi.

2. No glitch.


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## Aric Boger (Sep 25, 2015)

Was browsing the forum after posting and noticed this post after I posted mine (https://uberpeople.net/threads/does...n-gives-it-back-at-the-end-of-the-week.37060/). From this, it does look like others are experiencing the same thing, so apparently not a glitch. If this is accurate, I just really dislike the way in which "fare" is presented on the homepage vs. the pay statement page. If Uber really "adds in" the rider fee as it appears from the in-and-out calculation, this should be a net zero impact to driver. It doesn't appear that's the case; the driver eats the fee. Their math looks like a (not so-) clever attempt by Uber to disguise the fact that they're charging you a $1 for every rider prior to them taking their 25%. I hope there aren't people looking to actually make real money using Uber in Indianapolis... averaging $6 a ride gross, Uber takes a $1 + 25%... that math works out to Uber collecting 38% of my gross fare... YIKES!


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## forqalso (Jun 1, 2015)

On the summary page, it has the fare totaled with the rider fee. This is what the rider was charged. On the payment page, the fare from the Summary page is listed as separate entries under the "Payments" heading, with the rider fee also being listed under the "Deductions" heading, along with the Uber fee. 

It could be presented clearer; but, my summaries and statements seem to be correct. Keep an eye on your trips, though. Nothing wrong with keeping a screen shot of all your trip when you first get the total, at least until you're paid and especially if there's a issue with the trip not starting or stopped correctly.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

The dollar is the Safe Rider Fee. It is collected by Uber on your behalf and you pay it back to them. It is a wash, as you noticed. $5 in and $5 out. Your pay is fare minus SRF multiplied by 75% plus any tolls.


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## Drive777 (Jan 23, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> If this is accurate, I just really dislike the way in which "fare" is presented on the homepage vs. the pay statement page.
> 
> I hope there aren't people looking to actually make real money using Uber in Indianapolis... averaging $6 a ride gross, Uber takes a $1 + 25%... that math works out to Uber collecting 38% of my gross fare... YIKES!


We all dislike how Uber advertises what drivers can make in "fares" because it has nothing to do with what drivers actually take home in fares.

Hourly guarantees are calculated the same way.... on gross fares. It's B.S. marketing to bring in as many new drivers as possible.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uber shows you the GROSS (total) FARE that the rider pays.
No differently than if you sold something/anything to a consumer on behalf of a store or service company.

Your PAY STATEMENT shows you the NET AMOUNT you earned and get paid.

Think of it this way:
You work in stationary store and sell a set of printed-custom invitations to a customer.

The price of the stationary is $90
The store charges a $5 printing set-up fee
And the sales tax is $5
The total bill to the costumer comes to $100.00.
THAT is what the cash register shows - that's what the receipt shows.

But that is NOT the amount YOU get paid.
If (for the sake of example) you were paid strictly on a commission basis at the rate of 50% on the price of goods sold,
your EARNINGS would be 50% of $90 (not 50% of $100).

THAT is how your pay is calculated.
(with one difference: Uber reports the $1/ride SRF to the IRS as income to you -
and you have to claim that as an expense deduction on your tax return so you don't pay taxes on it)


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

While some of the claims of misleading marketing regarding pay are 100% true, the use of SRF in calculation of guarantee is not. As you can seen from a pay statement I had back in August in which I only was online for a 7 hour guarantee shift (because I knew it was close to home and going to be a great profit margin) the SRF is calculated separately. I was entitled to $172.50 gross, I earned $52.16 so they owed me $120.34, take off commission ($120.34 x 80%) and they owe me $96.27, which is what they deposited.


__
http://instagr.am/p/8GekdvL6xA/


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## Drive777 (Jan 23, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> While some of the claims of misleading marketing regarding pay are 100% true, the use of SRF in calculation of guarantee is not. As you can seen from a pay statement I had back in August in which I only was online for a 7 hour guarantee shift (because I knew it was close to home and going to be a great profit margin) the SRF is calculated separately. I was entitled to $172.50 gross, I earned $52.16 so they owed me $120.34, take off commission ($120.34 x 80%) and they owe me $96.27, which is what they deposited.
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/8GekdvL6xA/


You are right Barry! They made a small but positive change on this one. I checked a recent statement and they did remove SRFs from guarantee calculation.

Earlier this year in Dallas, they looked at total fares (with SRF), then paid the difference minus 20%. If you were guaranteed $20/hour, and did 4 gross minimum fares at $4 ($3.00 before commission X 4), they'd only pay you $4 in guarantees minus 20% because you "earned" $4 gross X 4 trips = $16. Now they are paying $8 in guarantees for the same scenario, minus 20%.

Must have had too many complaints about SRF's eating into the guarantee.


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## Doc Nyto (Sep 16, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Uber shows you the GROSS (total) FARE that the rider pays.
> No differently than if you sold something/anything to a consumer on behalf of a store or service company.
> 
> Your PAY STATEMENT shows you the NET AMOUNT you earned and get paid.
> ...


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## Doc Nyto (Sep 16, 2015)

This reminded me to count that SRF as a business expense for IRS. I'm using Quickbooks and treating this as my small business. Love it when I find a tip that really helps like that one just did. Thanks Michael.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Doc Nyto said:


> This reminded me to count that SRF as a business expense for IRS. I'm using Quickbooks and treating this as my small business. Love it when I find a tip that really helps like that one just did. Thanks Michael.


srf fees, no tipping, underpaid, etc. thats why the strike has been called on Oct. 16th at 5 pm to Oct 18th at 10 pm.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> srf fees, no tipping, underpaid, etc. thats why the strike has been called on Oct. 16th at 5 pm to Oct 18th at 10 pm.


I know your heart is in the right place, 'but the fastest way to NOT bee taken seriously by a company you are trying to negotiate with is to make demands about something that doesn't effect you - and that you don't understand.

That's why we hire lawyers - and why lawyers are called our "mouthpiece".


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

there is no negotiating with uber. we've been complaining. it's time to take action. i'm tired of their threats of deactivation.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

do yo


Michael - Cleveland said:


> I know your heart is in the right place, 'but the fastest way to NOT bee taken seriously by a company you are trying to negotiate with is to make demands about something that doesn't effect you - and that you don't understand.
> 
> That's why we hire lawyers - and why lawyers are called our "mouthpiece".


u really think they have ever taken us seriously? there was probably one point where they did...at start up. ever since then cuts.


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## Adbam (Jun 25, 2015)

I have yet to see a guarantee that didn't include the srf. granted it has been a few months since I was given a decent guarantee that I didn't beat. Most guarantees are worthless. I always end up beating them at the last min. It's better to just drive.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> do yo
> u really think they have ever taken us seriously? there was probably one point where they did...at start up. ever since then cuts.


So what?
Welcome to the world of reality and big business.
Uber doesn't need to care about drivers...
it NEEDS to care about riders, market share, market size, and market capitalization.
Drivers are a tool needed by the company short-term. 
We are treated as mostly disposable, because we are.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> there is no negotiating with uber. we've been complaining. it's time to take action. i'm tired of their threats of deactivation.


Absolutely go take action.
But know what you're talking about or the people within the company who might affect changes will simply roll their eyes at you, knowing that you 'just don't get it'.

Look... the SRF is a NON-IMPACT fee.
It doesn't go into your pocket and it doesn't get taken out of your pocket.

*Uber charts the SRF on paper (as part of the total fare that driver's charge riders) for just one reason:
it supports their base assertion that they are not a transportation company, but 'just a technology company'.*

That's what it's all about.
Nothing more - and nothing less.

If Uber defined itself as a transportation company it would have no problem just charging the rider directly for the use of the app and the SRF... and charging drivers for the use of the app, background checks and any other fees. But to do so would prove that the company IS a transportation company and IS a direct employer of drivers.

It's stupid, but that's how the attorneys have told Uber to structure everything if Uber wants to have even a prayer of defending it's assertions.

Lawyers like Lis-Riordin are combing through everything Uber has ever said, done and put in writing - for use against Uber in court - to find even the smallest thing that points to Uber being more than just a 'technology company'.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Adbam said:


> I have yet to see a guarantee that didn't include the srf. granted it has been a few months since I was given a decent guarantee that I didn't beat. Most guarantees are worthless. I always end up beating them at the last min. It's better to just drive.


Look to my above post with my pay statement, SRF isn't factored.

I now only use Uber when there is a guarantee close to home. Because 1) I know there will be no demand so my costs are low and 2) It saves me a trip into the city. Would rather make $20/hour sitting in car by beach reading than chasing fares to make $30/hour.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> I now only use Uber when there is a guarantee close to home. Because 1) I know there will be no demand so my costs are low and 2) It saves me a trip into the city. Would rather make $20/hour sitting in car by beach reading than chasing fares to make $30/hour.


Most guarantees require 2 to 3 trips/hr to qualify (at least here)... 
isn't that the case in Boston?


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

The one I showed I did 5 trips in 7 hours, so no.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Any Boston area drivers have a notice from Uber on the terms and conditions of guarantees in the Boston area?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

BostonBarry said:


> The one I showed I did 5 trips in 7 hours, so no.


wow... that Boston OPs Manager is not going to do well in his/her performance review.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

It may have been because it was a special event and 20 miles north of Boston. They had a designated Uber pickup and dropoff spot. But the guarantee meant there were 10-12 drivers around when normally there would be 2 or 3. Since most people took Uber from their hometown, having the guarantee fenced into Beverly didn't do good for the first few hours. Then when the party ended there was a short rush of people needing rides and that was it. Overall, best I've made per mile with very little overhead and also the most chapters I've made it through in a book during shift.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Absolutely go take action.
> But know what you're talking about or the people within the company who might affect changes will simply roll their eyes at you, knowing that you 'just don't get it'.
> 
> Look... the SRF is a NON-IMPACT fee.
> ...


the srf is an impact fee. in La the minimum ride is $4.00 . minus the 20% it should be $3.00. but we only earn $2.40 on minimum trips. so if the srf doesn't affect driver payout then why do we get $2.40 out of $4.00 ???


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> the srf is an impact fee. in La the minimum ride is $4.00 . minus the 20% it should be $3.00. but we only earn $2.40 on minimum trips. so if the srf doesn't affect driver payout then why do we get $2.40 out of $4.00 ???


The min fare (to the rider) is $4
- which consists of $3 (on which you pay 20% to Uber)
- and the $1 SRF (which has nothing to do with you or the service you provide).

How can you possibly not understand that:
if Uber stopped charging the $1 SRF,
the TOTAL min fare would then be $3
*and your earnings would STILL be $2.40?*​
Need more 'proof' that the SRF is a non-impact fee to the driver?
UberBLACK and UberSUV fares do not have a SRF charged
because those riders are covered by the driver's commercial insurance.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> The min fare (to the rider) is $4
> - which consists of $3 (on which you pay 20% to Uber)
> - and the $1 SRF (which has nothing to do with you or the service you provide).
> 
> ...


Truth. It is just a matter of wording/marketing. Uber takes the stance riders don't want to see a fee added after the fare. Lyft seems to think drivers are happier seeing their earnings without having to subtract the fee, so it is added behind the scenes, driver never sees it. So in Boston Uber min fare is $5 including the $1 SRF, Lyft is $4 and they add the $1.55. So really they are both $4+SRF.


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## LAuberX (Jun 3, 2014)

Sneaky UberSpeak at it's finest.

"make "UP TO" $16.00 per hour in FARES" a noob thinks $16/hr, thats good for part time work...

Now subtract "UP TO" 40% from the fares depending on how short the rides were.... not much left after the 40% is taken out then subtract ALL expenses, gas, wear.... 

Uber, they just lie.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

LAuberX said:


> Uber, they just lie.


I think they prefer: '_Uber obfuscates_'.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Look... the SRF is a NON-IMPACT fee.
> It doesn't go into your pocket and it doesn't get taken out of your pocket.


This is exactly what Uber wants drivers to think about the srf. "It's not ever yours, so it can't be / is not taken away from you".

But the same can be said of the Uber fee (aka commission). Commission doesn't go into drivers' pockets, and doesn't get taken out either.... in exactly the same way as the srf.

Uber wants to spin it so that the illusion is created for drivers that it is not taking such a high cut. But the reality is, call it safe ride fee, licensing fee, commission or whatever you like, srf is a cut taken from the fare total paid by the customer, and it increases Uber's percentage and nominal take.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> But the same can be said of the Uber fee (aka commission).


No, it can't.
It's not even close to the same.
Uber never says or implies that drivers will have to pay Uber a % of the SRF.
In fact, they fall over backwards explaining (on earnings reports and pay statements and in the 'agreement') that 
the SRF has no impact on driver's earnings.

From a legal perspective, it is possible that a court *might* find it 'onerous' that
Uber REQUIRES their ICs to charge riders the SRF and then pay it to Uber...
and *might* order Uber to stop the practice and just charge the rider directly.

If that happens, it still will not effect drivers earnings one way or another...
But...
THAT WOULD MAKE UBER A TRANSPORTATION COMPANY,
NOT JUST A TECHNOLOGY COMPANY.

And that's is why Uber has it set up this way.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> The min fare (to the rider) is $4
> - which consists of $3 (on which you pay 20% to Uber)
> - and the $1 SRF (which has nothing to do with you or the service you provide).
> 
> ...


but if the minimum "fare" is $4 uber should only take 20%. and add the safe rides fee for the rider to pay separately. don't deduct it from the fare.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> but if the minimum "fare" is $4 uber should only take 20%. and add the safe rides fee for the rider to pay separately. don't deduct it from the fare.


[dropping head to keyboard]
THAT IS WHAT THEY DO.
STOP LOOKING AT THE RIDER'S TOTAL BILL (fare).

The only difference is that for legal and paper-trail purposes, they show the SRF as having been charged by the driver to the rider (as a requirement in the partner agreement) and then collect that SRF from the total paid by the rider before sending the rest, less the Uber Fee, to the driver.

I think where you are getting confused is that you are thinking the "minimum FARE" is the same thing as "minimum EARNINGS"... and they are NOT the same thing.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> No, it can't.
> It's not even close to the same.
> Uber never says or implies that driver's will have to pay Uber a % of the SRF.
> In fact, they fall over backwards explaining (on earnings reports and pay statements and in the 'agreement') that the SRF has no impact on driver's earnings.
> ...


I think the problem a lot of drivers have with the srf is that, when it suits Uber, it is included as a part of "fares" I.e. "Earn up to $16 an hour in fares driving your own car!" even though the quoted figure will include srf which the driver will never receive. And it's also included in the fare presented to the driver on the app screen after a ride, and on the various ride summaries online. All with a view to making the driver's earnings appear higher than what they are.

But when it comes to justifying the fee, Uber's approach changes. No longer is it presented as part of the fare, but as a separate component charged to the customer which has no impact on earnings.

Just as with Uber claiming IC status for drivers and then trying to control them, this is just another case of trying to have one's cake and eat it too. As experienced drivers we can see through the BS / smoke and mirrors, but noobs like the OP don't.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> [dropping head to keyboard]
> THAT IS WHAT THEY DO.
> STOP LOOKING AT THE RIDER'S TOTAL BILL (fare).
> 
> The only difference is that for legal and paper-trail purposes, they show the SRF as having been charged by the driver to the rider (as a requirement in the partner agreement) and then collect that SRF from the total paid by the rider before sending the rest, less the Uber Fee, to the driver.


I'm afraid not. On a $4 min fare, they deduct $1 srf, and then take the commission off the remaining $3.

Lyft adds it as a separate component; Uber deducts it from the fare.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> On a $4 min fare, they deduct $1 srf, and then take the commission off the remaining $3.


That's exactly what I said - and exactly what Uber does.
But some drivers still seem to think they are entitled to the SRF in some way -
or that the SRF is part of the commission-able fee.

FARES ARE NOT EARNINGS.

FARES are what the RIDER PAYS.
EARNINGS are what the DRIVERS RECEIVE.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That's exactly what I said - and exactly what Uber does.
> But some driver's still seem to think they are entitled to the SRF in some way -
> or that the SRF is part of the commission-able fee.
> 
> ...


There isn't a right or wrong here. Drivers think they should be entitled to part or all of the srf. Drivers think that they should pay less commission, or that rates should be higher etc etc. All of these points could be argued from both sides.

But the fact remains, the effect of srf is to increase the percentage kept by Uber of revenue taken from the customer and to lower the percentage of that revenue which is kept by the driver. Call it a safe ride fee, a Millenial Latte & Frappuccino fee, Travis' Retirement Fund fee, or whatever you like, the srf goes, along with the rest of the fare, straight into the same Uber bank account along with all the rest of the commission.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> But the fact remains, the effect of srf is to increase the percentage kept by Uber of revenue taken from the customer


WHICH IS NONE OF THE EMPLOYEE'S OR ICs BUSINESS.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> [dropping head to keyboard]
> THAT IS WHAT THEY DO.
> STOP LOOKING AT THE RIDER'S TOTAL BILL (fare).
> 
> ...


i'm not looking at the riders bill. i'm looking at my earnings. no matter how you put it i still earn $2.40. so if you're right we have all the more reason to strike. the rates are way to low. and we still need to pay our taxes.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> There isn't a right or wrong here. Drivers think they should be entitled to part or all of the srf. Drivers think that they should pay less commission, or that rates should be higher etc etc. *All of these points could be argued from both sides.*


Not the SRF issue.
If you as a driver provide COMMERCIAL INSURANCE then you don't have to collect the SRF and pay it to Uber.
That's why UberBLACK and UberSUV driver's do not deal with the SRF.
https://uberpeople.net/threads/need...aining-pay-statement.37340/page-2#post-491175


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> i'm not looking at the riders bill. i'm looking at my earnings. no matter how you put it i still earn $2.40. so if you're right we have all the more reason to strike. the rates are way to low. and we still need to pay our taxes.


Well, you actually won't owe any taxes with the rates being this low...
but that's besides the point.
And rates are, indeed, too low.
But that has nothing to do with Uber requiring drivers to charge riders a $1 SRF for commercial insurance coverage and then 'paying' Uber for that coverage.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Well, you actually won't owe any taxes with the rates being this low...
> but that's besides the point.
> And rates are, indeed, too low.
> But that has nothing to do with Uber requiring drivers to charge riders a $1 SRF for commercial insurance coverage and then 'buying' that coverage from Uber.


thank you for clarifying i now have more of a resolve to strike on Oct 16th.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> WHICH IS NONE OF THE EMPLOYEE'S OR ICs BUSINESS.


Actually, it is. For example, during short-hop hours of my shift (9pm - 12pm roughly) the pax are already downtown, they're not going home yet but are just relocating from one bar to the next. So mostly minimum fare rides.

During this time I often Uber Off and just do Lyft - both platforms have a $5 min fare, but Uber takes the srf from the $5 whereas Lyft adds their srf on top. The obvious result is that I pay less total fees/commission with Lyft.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Well, you actually won't owe any taxes with the rates being this low...
> but that's besides the point.
> And rates are, indeed, too low.
> But that has nothing to do with Uber requiring drivers to charge riders a $1 SRF for commercial insurance coverage and then 'paying' Uber for that coverage.


Uber never says it's for insurance - it's always touted as a "safety fee", for industry leading background checks etc


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Actually, it is.


Not in any world I have ever lived in.
If you want the company you work for to somehow be responsible to you for their pricing strategy, then you better have some ownership of that company. Otherwise, it's none of your business.

In Uber's case, however, they want it both ways


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Uber never says it's for insurance - it's always touted as a "safety fee", for industry leading background checks etc


It is indeed for the background checks and insurance.
Those things are already in place for commercial drivers who do UberBLACK and UberSUV.
https://uberpeople.net/threads/need...aining-pay-statement.37340/page-2#post-491175
It doesn't make any difference if they call it an SRF or an INSURANCE FEE or a Pig-In-A-Poke.
"Would not a rose by any other name... "


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> If you want the company you work for to somehow be responsible to you for their pricing strategy, then you better have some ownership of that company. Otherwise, it's none of your business.


I don't work for Uber. Uber and I are partners, and between us we divide up the revenue taken from the customer. It's absolutely the business of each partner in a partnership how much the other partner is taking.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> I don't work for Uber. Uber and I are partners, and between us we divide up the revenue taken from the customer. It's absolutely the business of each partner in a partnership how much the other partner is taking.


But it is not each partner's business how much and for what the OTHER partner is charging.
It says as much in your partner agreement.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> But it is not each partners business how much and for what the OTHER partner is charging.
> It says as much in your partner agreement.


But the "other partner" can try to dictate driver partners' business regarding policy and driver actions re tipping, promoting other businesses etc etc. Nah, I'm not buying it.

So what they do is none of our business yet they still get to control our businesses?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> So what they do is none of our business yet they still get to control our businesses?


Yeah... that's what EMPLOYERS do! 
(What, elelegido , you've never heard of a 'silent partner'?! hehe)

Drivers are no more 'partners' with Uber 
than the customers at Target are "valued guests".

Ignore the marketing BS


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Yeah... that's what EMPLOYERS do!


You referenced the partner agreement above. What does the partner agreement say about whether or not we are employees, and reimbursement for car expenses, gasoline, health care plans etc?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> You referenced the partner agreement above. What does the partner agreement say about whether or not we are employees, and reimbursement for car expenses, gasoline, health care plans etc?


Is that a rhetorical question?
The Uber Partner Agreement specifically classifies drivers as Independent Contractors.
It also gives driver specific rights to control their own business.
And in practice, Uber's systems and polices do not provide a means by which their ICs can exercise their rights, or monitor their own performance.
Theses are the issues Uber is being sued over.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Is that a rhetorical question?
> The Uber Partner Agreement specifically classifies drivers as Independent Contractors.
> It also gives driver specific rights to control their own business.
> And in practice, Uber's systems and polices do not provide a means by which their ICs can execute their rights, or monitor their own performance.
> Theses are the issues Uber is being sued over.


I was alluding to the fact that you referenced the partner agreement and picked and chose bits from it that you think support your arguments on the one hand, and on the other then go on to say that the agreement is not respected by Uber.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Is that a rhetorical question?
> The Uber Partner Agreement specifically classifies drivers as Independent Contractors.
> It also gives driver specific rights to control their own business.
> And in practice, Uber's systems and polices do not provide a means by which their ICs can execute their rights, or monitor their own performance.
> Theses are the issues Uber is being sued over.


if we can't execute our rights then we have no rights. it's time to take a stand as ic's and demand rights.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> I was alluding to the fact that you referenced the partner agreement and picked and chose bits from it that you think support your arguments on the one hand, and on the other then go on to say that the agreement is not respected by Uber.


Argument?
I'm stating facts about the SRF.
If people want to misrepresent what is, how it is charged and collected, they are free to.
But I'll correct them.

There are more than enough legitimate things to complain about with Uber.
The SRF is not one of them - 
and trying to make an issue out of it to 'demand' change from Uber
when there is no issue, 
just makes us as drivers look foolish and weak.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Argument?
> I'm stating facts about the SRF.
> If people want to misrepresent what is, how it is charged and collected, they are free to.
> But I'll correct them.
> ...


all i know is that in la we make $2.40 minimum trip. srf or not, this is still the truth.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> *we make $2.40 minimum trip. srf or not*


Thanks for confirming what I've been saying:
the SRF does not effect your earnings.

Now that we've got that settled...

$2.40 is what you earn if you drive the rider down the street.

In LA if you drive UberX and the trip is 1 mile and 5 minutes - you get $2.40.
(*what % of your trips are just 1 mile?*)​If you drive the rider 2 miles and the trip is 10 minutes - you get $3.80
(*what % of your trips are just 2 miles?*)​If you drive the rider 3 miles and the trip is 15 minutes - you get $5.70
(*what % of your trips are just 3 miles?*)​*What % of your trips are more than 3 miles?*

If all you are getting is min fare trips, you probably need to drive in a different location or at a different time.

And if you're driving more than 5 minutes to an UberX pick-up in LA, then you should probably change your ride acceptance strategy.

The rates suck, by all means and measures...
but take SOME responsibility for managing your business.
Or you could just become a taxi driver - I hear the rates are much better.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Argument?
> I'm stating facts about the SRF.
> If people want to misrepresent what is, how it is charged and collected, they are free to.
> But I'll correct them.
> ...


Southern plantation owners would have said the same thing. "Don't you be making an issue, boy, where there is none."

Anyway, however you spin it, Uber's claims of "earn $x in fares", when the quoted fares will include an srf which the driver will never see is dishonest and misleading.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Southern plantation owners would have said the same thing. "Don't you be making an issue, boy, where there is none."
> Anyway, however you spin it, Uber's claims of "earn $x in fares", when the quoted fares will include an srf which the driver will never see is dishonest and misleading.


First, it is not only absurd to compare voluntary work chosen by people free to do anything they want - or to not do anything they don't want - to that of enslaved people, owned as property.
It's also tasteless.

Second, I agree you with you that Uber's marketing is deceptive - and the entire issue could have been avoided if their marketing team wasn't comprised of ivy league MBAs who are still wet behind the ears. But by the same token, people have some responsibility to do their own due diligence... and stop assuming that a privately held company should be run they want it to be run.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Thanks for confirming what I've been saying:
> the SRF does not effect your earnings.
> 
> Now that we've got that settled...
> ...


nobody said that all we get are minimum trips. what i am saying is that on minimum trips all we get is $2.40. no one can refute that, no matter how you word it. also, you can't change your ride acceptance strategy because uber threatens to deactivate. as ic's we are being restricted from managing our business. thats why the nation wide strike has been called.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> nobody said that all we get are minimum trips. what i am saying is that on minimum trips all we get is $2.40.


Hey, I don't like 'em either...
But $2.40 for less than 5 minutes of work and basically zero expense isn't 'nothing'.
Now, if you drive too far to pick up rider requests and you're getting too many min fare rides... 
then drive somewhere else and stop chasing requests from far away.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Let me put this another way:

If you drive 5 miles and ten minutes to pick up fares,
AND you keep getting only min fare trips or mostly min fare trips,
maybe you should figure out that 
IT'S NOT IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO PICK UP FARES FROM THAT AREA.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Hey, I don't like 'em either...
> But $2.40 for less than 5 minutes of work and basically zero expense isn't 'nothing'.
> Now, if you drive too far to pick up rider requests and you're getting too many min fare rides...
> then drive somewhere else and stop chasing requests from far away.


mister you don't get it. in la we are being threatened with deactivation for not chasing far requests. we have to pay for dead miles plus our time. we are not told that it's a minimum ride till arrival. for me it's unethical and just wrong to cancel at that point. it's not pax fault. pax is really unaware of ubers practices. they actually even think the tip is included. lol. as an ic i should be able to run my business in a way that is most profitable and not a waste of time, but ubers threats have now gone too far. drivers are now willing to stand up on Oct 16th.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

> ="Michael - Cleveland, post: 492195, member: 6945"]First, it is not only absurd to compare voluntary work chosen by people free to do anything they want


 Any more rate cuts and driving for Uber soon will be voluntary work. It's not far off it now 



> stop assuming that a privately held run company should be run they want it to be run.


Here's where we differ - I believe that companies should be expected to be run with honesty and integrity, and punished when they are not. Lots of other people do, too, which is why the court cases against Uber for deceptive practices are advancing through the court system.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> mister you don't get it. in la we are being threatened with deactivation for not chasing far requests. we have to pay for dead miles plus our time. we are not told that it's a minimum ride till arrival. for me it's unethical and just wrong to cancel at that point. it's not pax fault. pax is really unaware of ubers practices. they actually even think the tip is included. lol. as an ic i should be able to run my business in a way that is most profitable and not a waste of time, but ubers threats have now gone too far. drivers are now willing to stand up on Oct 16th.


Yeah... you can tell from my posts here that I'm the one who doesn't get it.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

well if you do then glad to have you on board for the strike.


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## Aric Boger (Sep 25, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> FARES ARE NOT EARNINGS.
> 
> FARES are what the RIDER PAYS.
> EARNINGS are what the DRIVERS RECEIVE.


I don't think most people would disagree with this... however, when I - the driver - login to my Uber account online, the first thing it shows me is a summary page with the word FARES on it. Clearly, the implication by Uber here is to relay to me the gross earnings from the rides I've given. Why - as the driver - would I care what the riders' fees are, unless of course, it directly translates to what I receive as payment? I would only care about fees to the rider if I'm the rider. You have to ask yourself, what is the purpose of Uber showing the driver the riders' fees?? If FARES and gross earnings are not the same thing, then this is deceitful way to present it to the driver upon login. I work at a hospital for my day job. When I log in to our HR system to view my paychecks, it doesn't start me off on a summary page telling me what a patient was charged for an MRI. Why?... because it would be irrelevant, even though in an indirect way it does help determine my compensation.

If Uber wants to charge the rider a separate fee and have the driver collect it and remit back to Uber, that's fine. And it probably makes sense to do it that way as it's more efficient and fewer transactions. The issue I have is with Uber's presentation of FARES on the summary page. At minimum: Uber is inconsistent about the definition of FARES. On my summary page, FARES includes SRF. On the pay statement, FARES takes on a different calculation (i.e. it backs out the SRF first), and thus a different definition. On the pay statement, they try to present it as an an in-and-out when the calculation starts with it OUT to begin with... again, assuming you're expecting FARES to be the same amount as you just saw 12 seconds ago on the summary page when you logged in.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> I don't think most people would disagree with this... however, when I - the driver - login to my Uber account online, the first thing it shows me is a summary page with the word FARES on it. Clearly, the implication by Uber here is to relay to me the gross earnings from the rides I've given. Why - as the driver - would I care what the riders' fees are, unless of course, it directly translates to what I receive as payment? I would only care about fees to the rider if I'm the rider. You have to ask yourself, what is the purpose of Uber showing the driver the riders' fees?? If FARES and gross earnings are not the same thing, then this is deceitful way to present it to the driver upon login. I work at a hospital for my day job. When I log in to our HR system to view my paychecks, it doesn't start me off on a summary page telling me what a patient was charged for an MRI. Why?... because it would be irrelevant, even though in an indirect way it does help determine my compensation.
> 
> If Uber wants to charge the rider a separate fee and have the driver collect it and remit back to Uber, that's fine. And it probably makes sense to do it that way as it's more efficient and fewer transactions. The issue I have is with Uber's presentation of FARES on the summary page. At minimum: Uber is inconsistent about the definition of FARES. On my summary page, FARES includes SRF. On the pay statement, FARES takes on a different calculation (i.e. it backs out the SRF first), and thus a different definition. On the pay statement, they try to present it as an an in-and-out when the calculation starts with it OUT to begin with... again, assuming you're expecting FARES to be the same amount as you just saw 12 seconds ago on the summary page when you logged in.


I hear you... and it was disconcerting to me when I started driving, too.

But I'll tell ya... when I open my accounting software for my 'real business', the first thing it shows me is my revenues.
Not my earnings... not my profits: my sales, less refunds.
If I want to see my sales less the commissions I've paid, I bring up that report.
If I want to see my sales less commissions and after expenses, I pull up that report.

If I login into the Uber app but don't go online, the menu choices from the app allow me to look at EARNINGS
(there isn't even an option to see my total 'sales'.)
If I login to Uber via the website, the first page shows me a SUMMARY and a link right next to it to bring up my Pay Statement (EARNINGS).

In other words, the information displayed to me by Uber works exactly the same way my own (custom programmed) accounting software works.



> When I log in to our HR system to view my paychecks, it doesn't start me off on a summary page telling me what a patient was charged for an MRI. Why?


Because at your 'job', you are an employee.
But with Uber, you are running your OWN business.
There is a difference.
(In your job, you are serving your employer's clients - In Uber you are serving your OWN customers)

The 'problem' here isn't Uber or the way information is displayed.
The problem is that apparently most Uber drivers have never run a business and are wholly unfamiliar with business practices.
And the POINT is, none of it makes any difference because how the information is displayed doesn't change anything about what we earn as drivers.



> Uber is inconsistent about the definition of FARES.


No it isn't. There are 'summaries' (total fare charged to your rider)
and there are detailed line item breakdowns of fares charged to your rider.
Both include the SRF - but the pay statement, correctly, shows the SRF as a debit and credit to you.

Drivers want to be Independent Contractors - in business for themselves?
Fine... GREAT! But they need to learn how to manage a business.
Figure out what IS worth complaining about, and what is NOT worth whining about
and focus on the things that will ACTUALLY effect your income.


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## Aric Boger (Sep 25, 2015)

Michael -

You seem pretty steadfast in your defense on this... but under no uncertain terms, Uber is using a different definition/calculation on the summary page as it does the pay statement for the same word. When I login, the first thing I see is a summary page. It says my name, my number of rides, my rating, and my "fares". It doesn't say "Uber's fares" (which is really what it is, Uber's gross charge to the rider), nor does it say "riders' fares", or whatever. It says "fares". Because of that, the implication - clearly - is that this is the driver's "fares", as it is right next to everything else about me - rating, number of trips, etc.

On the pay statement screen, Uber uses this exact same word "fares", but the amounts are different. The first line item on the pay statement is "fares", the same exact word as on the summary screen. The amounts differ (by $1 per ride, of course). There is no two ways about it. Same word, different calculation. If you're trying to argue against that, you're in the wrong.

Look, I get your whole business comments. I'm not arguing any of that. And I'm an accountant by training, so I'm hardly falling victim to poor mathematics and/or the incomprehensible addition, subtraction, and multiplication necessary for this. My grief is with the presentation and Uber's inconsistent definition. It's like they think I'm too stupid to pick up on the fact that the "in-and-out" they show is already "OUT" on the first line of the pay statement (as compared to the same "fares" shown on the summary page). 

If Uber's payment model is to deduct a $1 fee from me for every rider, that's there prerogative, and one that I have to be content with if I want to be their "partner". But I'd rather they present this a little more genuinely and have "fares" be calculated/defined consistently across the summary page and pay detail page. Right now, it's not. And I don't think it's by accident... it's not like I'm the first person to have look at this and said "hey, wait a minute here...".


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> You seem pretty steadfast in your defense on this... but under no uncertain terms, Uber is using a different definition/calculation on the summary page as it does the pay statement for the same word. .


You're right, I am steadfast on this... and it is just my opinion (borne of a lot of experience in business and marketing).
Take it for what's it's worth.

I do not agree with your assertion that Uber is inconsistent with the word 'FARES'.
In all of my Uber reports and documentation, 'Fares' always refers to the total amount charged by the driver to the rider.

Maybe you receive different reports than I do?
Here's what my Pay Statement looks like - clearly differentiating (consistently) between FARES, FEES and EARNINGS:








If drivers want to be in business, it will be in their best interest to learn how to read and understand the business reports, financial statements and information provided by their vendor(s) -and even employers, - if you are an employee.
If your only complaint is that the title of some column or report from one of your vendors isn't to your liking,
then you have little to complain about.

You can spend a lot of time and energy discussing the merits and deceptions of how something is worded (and does not effect your income in any way)...
OR
You can spend that same time and energy doing something that generates income.

I am pretty sure (make that POSITIVE) that changing the wording,
description, visual layout or numerical format of Uber's reports
will not effect our earnings by one cent.

Someone else here recently referred to the John Prine song, "Dear Abby"
and your post reminds me of the refrain:

_[Uberdriver, Uberdriver] You've got no complaint.
You are what are and you ain't what you ain't.
So listen up buster and listen up good,
Quit wishin' for bad luck and knockin' on wood
Signed, Dear Abby._​


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

While I can understand people being lured in by marketing semantics, I really have no sympathy for those that don't do their due diligence when entering employment/business. Not to mention, most driver complaints are over things which are encountered in one's first week driving rideshare. They are under no obligation to continue driving, but they do. Jobs can definitely be scarce, particularly if someone is overly choosy. But there are always options and the one most drivers seem unwilling to exercise is to end their participation. Instead they will gripe and moan about "deceptive" business practices. FYI, all businesses engage in activities to lure you. "Free delivery!" "Free financing!", etc are all built into the price. Or do you really think the delivery guy is a volunteer or the store is loaning you money because they have plenty to go around? Hell, even in employment this holds true. Look for jobs in sales and see claims of "make up to $100,000/year!" in car sales, headhunting, etc. The key word in that claim is the "up to", it doesn't matter if you make nothing in commissions, they kept their word. Then there is the age-old driver complaint of "and that is before we pay taxes!". What job, anywhere, has ever listed an employee's expected take-home pay? Even in jobs involving mileage reimbursement because you commute between jobsites or live far from the office, do they breakdown how much equity you're losing in the car or what repairs will cost? Personally, all job offers I've had give an hourly, weekly, or annual gross offer. They may tell me what benefits will cost me or parking or some such, but when you are working for yourself these are your responsibility.

It would do all drivers well to ignore even the Independent Contractor language and treat Uber like your client. They refer riders to you and give you access to their software. That is it. In that relationship it makes sense that they can set guidelines such as acceptance rates and ratings thresholds and deny you access to their riders. If, as a business owner, you decide to put all your eggs in one basket and rely solely on Uber for income, then you can't really complain when they decide to suspend or discontinue your access to their platform. Every driver should have other revenue streams. Lyft, Postmates, a "traditional" job to fall on, etc. 

As for the SRF, it is as Michael has said. It is a non-impact. As I showed earlier on it isn't used in factoring guarantees. If your beef is with the advertising regarding income and fares per hour/week/month/year then Uber has been honest. It is possible to average x/hour, etc. It just depends on when you drive, where you drive, and IT IS A GROSS FARES advertisement. If you don't realize there is a commission and fee taken out of that claim before you sign up then you didn't read the agreement before you agreed to it. If you continue to drive after you find out, then you accept it. Feel free to protest, write in, etc. Personally keep my Uber account active as a "just-in-case", so I would love to see a bump in Lyft requests for a few days.


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## Aric Boger (Sep 25, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> If drivers want to be in business, it will be in their best interest to learn how to read and understand the business reports, financial statements and information provided by their vendor(s) -and even employers, - if you are an employee.
> If your only complaint is that the title of some column or report from one of your vendors isn't to your liking,
> then you have little to complain about.


I think you missed my point... I understand how to read the reports just fine. I know what it's telling me. It's not simply the "title of column", it's the intent behind the titles. Uber is being deliberately deceptive and essentially trying to disguise this as an in-and-out fee when it isn't - or at least it isn't going from the definition of my "fares" on the summary page. But the fact that I have to reference which definition my complaint applies to should be more than enough justification that the fare definitions on the different pages are at odds with each other.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> I am pretty sure (make that POSITIVE) that changing the wording,
> description, visual layout or numerical format of Uber's reports
> will not effect our earnings by one cent.


Again... missing the point. I'm not advocating that I should keep the fee or that this is distorting earnings. I've acknowledged that if Uber wants to charge drivers this fee - and if I want to be a driver - then I have to accept it. This isn't - and never was - a complaint about payments.

If you ever get tired of driving, you should consider taking a PR position with Uber. You can rattle off some stuff from an accounting and finance text books, talk about business partnerships, saying the word EARNINGS loudly so it catches people's attention, etc. while taking any complaint/discussion topic off track to the point where the other person just gives up because they're tired of arguing with you... which is where I am.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> I think you missed my point... I understand how to read the reports just fine. I know what it's telling me. It's not simply the "title of column", it's the intent behind the titles. Uber is being deliberately deceptive and essentially trying to disguise this as an in-and-out fee when it isn't - or at least it isn't going from the definition of my "fares" on the summary page. But the fact that I have to reference which definition my complaint applies to should be more than enough justification that the fare definitions on the different pages are at odds with each other.
> 
> Again... missing the point. I'm not advocating that I should keep the fee or that this is distorting earnings. I've acknowledged that if Uber wants to charge drivers this fee - and if I want to be a driver - then I have to accept it. This isn't - and never was - a complaint about payments.
> 
> If you ever get tired of driving, you should consider taking a PR position with Uber. You can rattle off some stuff from an accounting and finance text books, talk about business partnerships, saying the word EARNINGS loudly so it catches people's attention, etc. while taking any complaint/discussion topic off track to the point where the other person just gives up because they're tired of arguing with you... which is where I am.


Aric, I added an image to my post above just to show you in black and white (well, 4096 colors, actually) how wrong you are. On my Uber reports, the wording used in the pay statement is 100% consistent with the wording in the Summary page.


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## Aric Boger (Sep 25, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Aric, I added an image to my post above just to show you in black and white (well, 4096 colors, actually) how wrong you are.


I saw the image. My statement looks like yours, and I have no confusion with reading it. Did you accidentally forget to show the corresponding fare amount on your "summary" page, or are you just purposefully ignoring that part of my comments? If the latter, that's kind of a problem because is basically my whole point.

Yes, "fares" on the pay statement page agrees to itself on that same page as indicate by your red connector lines. What it doesn't agree to is "fares" on the summary page. Do you know what I mean when I say "summary" page? It's the page that shows up when you login (maybe you don't get this screen, I dunno). And the fare amount on that page doesn't agree to the fare amount on the pay statement... which is the whole point of my original post, and hence my subsequent comments about inconsistent definition/calculation of the word "fares" between these 2 pages.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> I think you missed my point... I understand how to read the reports just fine. I know what it's telling me. It's not simply the "title of column", it's the intent behind the titles. Uber is being deliberately deceptive and essentially trying to disguise this as an in-and-out fee when it isn't - or at least it isn't going from the definition of my "fares" on the summary page. But the fact that I have to reference which definition my complaint applies to should be more than enough justification that the fare definitions on the different pages are at odds with each other.


I'm afraid that we're just going to disagree on this. Sadly, I don't just think you're wrong - I think it's is you who misses the point. And the facts... and I've posted the screenshot to illustrate that.
<shrug> That's cool - If you want to call orange 'blue', that's your prerogative.

On a sort-of related side note, I know that it drives me crazy when people who know absolutely nothing about the 25 year old business I've owned and operated for 15 years think they can can tell me how to run my business. I suspect that Uber, with its minions of MBAs, JDs - and even Kalanick who has been through a half dozen tech start-ups - has thousands of unemployed, underemployed and self-employed drivers telling it what it *should* do.
Not a dig - I'm one of those minions who are prone to offering my expertise (!) to them...
BUT, it's THEIR business, not mine. And anyone who thinks this company is 'stupid' is way off track.
'Self centered' - yes. Stupid - no.


> I'm not advocating ... that this is distorting earnings.


No? Then what are you complaining about?


> If you ever get tired of driving, you should consider taking a PR position with Uber. You can rattle off some stuff from an accounting and finance text books, talk about business partnerships, saying the word EARNINGS loudly so it catches people's attention, etc. while taking any complaint/discussion topic off track to the point where the other person just gives up because they're tired of arguing with you... which is where I am.


When someone resorts to that kind of personal nonsense,
I've know they gone off the rails
and have nothing of substance to contribute to the conversation.
See ya.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> I saw the image. My statement looks like yours, and I have no confusion with reading it. Did you accidentally forget to show the corresponding fare amount on your "summary" page, or are you just purposefully ignoring that part of my comments?


Now you're just being ridiculous...
The FARE AMOUNT on the SUMMARY page shows the EXACT same thing as the FARE amount shown in the pay statement - same definition - and you know it. 
Are you just purposefully trying to confuse people?
I've added a screenshot of the 'summary' page to illustrate the relationships.


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## Aric Boger (Sep 25, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Now you're just being ridiculous...
> The FARE AMOUNT on the SUMMARY page shows the EXACT same amount as the FARE amount show in the pay statement - and you know it. Are you just purposefully trying to confuse people?


What?? They are absolutely not the same amount. I wish I knew how to take and upload screen shots so I could demonstrate this. FARES on the summary page is higher - by $1 per ride given - than the FARES line on my pay statement. Same word, different amounts depending on the screen. That's my whole gripe. I didn't make this up just to start a 3-hour conversation on an internet forum. Surely there is someone out there who can back me up on this... or am I the only one who has a different fare amount on summary screen vs. the top-line fare amount on the pay statement screen??


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

cleveland thinks he's as smart as his avatar. 100% he won't strike


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> What?? They are absolutely not the same amount.


You're wrong.
*Stop and LOOK at the pay statement.*
The FARE amount shown there includes ALL charges paid by the rider - including the SRF: $845.20.
Now look to the right and you'll see the line item detail showing the Uber Fees (commision) and the Rider Fees (SRF) that are deducted to arrive at your EARNINGS.

The FARE amount on the summary page ($842.50) is identical to the FARE amount on the pay statement page ($842.50).

So - if THAT is your "whole gripe", then you should be relieved there is nothing to gripe about.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> cleveland thinks he's as smart as his avatar. 100% he won't strike


You know, I had every intention of just making plans for that weekend and not driving.
Now I'm thinking of coming out to LA to drive. Thanks.


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## Aric Boger (Sep 25, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You're are wrong.
> *Stop and LOOK at the pay statement.*
> The FARE amount shown there includes ALL charges paid by the rider - including the SRF: $845.20.
> Now look to the right and you'll see the line item detail showing the Uber Fees (commision) and the Rider Fees (SRF) that are deducted to arrive at your EARNINGS.


Are you just screwing with me here? SUMMARY PAGE. When you login you should be at this web address: https://partners.uber.com/home/ The first word in the content section of this page says SUMMARY. It lists my name, the number of rides give, and states FARES. That FARE amount is different from the FARE amount when I click on the pay statement page.... the pay statement link takes you to a pop-up... which is a DIFFERENT page. My ENTIRE point is that the amounts differ on the two different pages/screens, yet you keep telling me to look at only the pay statement. Of course the amount in question can't possibly be different from itself if you're only looking at it on one page!? I really can't figure out if you don't understand me, or are just being difficult and messing with me.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> Are you just screwing with me here? SUMMARY PAGE. When you login you should be at this web address: https://partners.uber.com/home/ The first word in the content section of this page says SUMMARY. It lists my name, the number of rides give, and states FARES. That FARE amount is different from the FARE amount when I click on the pay statement page....


As I said earlier, maybe the pages supplied to you in your region are different than those supplied to me in mine.
(but I doubt it)

I've posted the screenshots of my Summary page AND of my Pay Statement pages.
In the pages shown to me, the FARE amounts are consistent and equal - and defined identically.
YMMV


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> Are you just screwing with me here? SUMMARY PAGE. When you login you should be at this web address: https://partners.uber.com/home/ The first word in the content section of this page says SUMMARY. It lists my name, the number of rides give, and states FARES. That FARE amount is different from the FARE amount when I click on the pay statement page.... the pay statement link takes you to a pop-up... which is a DIFFERENT page. My ENTIRE point is that the amounts differ on the two different pages/screens, yet you keep telling me to look at only the pay statement. Of course the amount in question can't possibly be different from itself if you're only looking at it on one page!? I really can't figure out if you don't understand me, or are just being difficult and messing with me.


You do realize, don't you, that the SUMMARY page is a 'rolling' summary -
that it displays your choice of 1 day, 7 days, 30 days or 365 days? ...
and that your *Pay Statement displays your fares and earnings only for the current pay period* (week)?


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## Aric Boger (Sep 25, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You do realize, don't you, that the SUMMARY page is a 'rolling' summary -
> that it displays your choice of 1 day, 7 days, 20 days or 365 days? ...
> and that your *Pay Statement displays your fares and earnings only for the current pay period* (week)?


I've been doing this for such a short period of time that I've not even been paid out yet, so everything for me is within a 7 day window, so that's not it. Trying attempt at screenshot below. If it works, you'll clearly see that FARES amount is different on main page (1st pic) than from the pay statement (2nd pic) by the amount of the rider fee.

EDIT: It worked. I'd be extremely interested to know if this is not what you or others see (re: different amounts).


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> I've been doing this for such a short period of time that I've not even been paid out yet, so everything for me is within a 7 day window, so that's not it. Trying attempt at screenshot below. If it works, you'll clearly see that FARES amount is different on main page (1st pic) than from the pay statement (2nd pic) by the amount of the rider fee.


You're looking under a section called EARNINGS - don't you see that in the BLUE HEADING?
Under that is a detail of your earnings, showing the fare amount, the rider's fee and the uber fee.

As a new driver, you are worrying WAAAAY too much about things that do not effect your income.
When you've worked with these reports for every week for months on end, it will be second nature to you.

If it's driving you crazy that the FARES amount on the summary page includes the SRF, 
just look at the # of trips for that summary and deduct that number (which = $1/ride)... 
The result will be your total fares (before paying your Uber fee).


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You know, I had every intention of just making plans for that weekend and not driving.
> Now I'm thinking of coming out to LA to drive. Thanks.


ok where are you gonna be so i can cancel you. lol


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## Aric Boger (Sep 25, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You're looking under a section called EARNINGS - don't you see that in the BLUE HEADING?
> Under that is a detail of your earnings, showing the fare amount, the rider's fee and the uber fee.
> 
> As a new driver, you are worrying WAAAAY too much about things that do not effect your income.


You called me ridiculous earlier for suggesting there were 2 different amounts listed as "FARE" on 2 different screens. I don't care what color the heading is; that changes nothing. The first word in that "earnings" calculation of the pay statement is titled "FARE". It has a different amount - and meaning - than "FARE" on the summary page, which is exactly what I first posted about asking if this was unusual. I posted pics above since you called me ridiculous for suggesting this was the case. And being as unsurprised as you were to see what was on these pics and what I'd described, you obviously knew what I was talking about the whole time. Why you continued to argue it and/or pretend that it wasn't the case is beyond me.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

I am confident you are aware that the color of the bar for that heading is insignificant...

The WORD in that heading is EARNINGS.
Under that heading is a description of your earnings with line item breakouts for Fare, Rider Fees and Uber fees.

Yes, you are absolutely correct that the line item listing for your earnings shows the* Fare You Earned* (instead of the fare the rider paid) and the fees all broken out so you can see what the deductions are.

That this annoys you, or bothers you, or makes you feel the use of the word 'Fare' is being used inconsistently, is, in my opinion alone, ridiculous.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

we need a whole lot of help explaining pay statement. not that it's ambiguous but misleading. but drivers are starting to get smart. we have the momentum for this strike.


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## Adbam (Jun 25, 2015)

Aric was right Uber lists fares differently in different areas. Don't back track now Cleveland. He showed you the same 2 pages you screen shotted. Look at your own posts on this thread. You said the fairs listed are the same everywhere they arent.


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## Adbam (Jun 25, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> As I said earlier, maybe the pages supplied to you in your region are different than those supplied to me in mine.
> (but I doubt it)
> 
> I've posted the screenshots of my Summary page AND of my Pay Statement pages.
> ...


This post you said it's the same. It's not


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## Adbam (Jun 25, 2015)

You linked the fares together in red here saying they were the same. Just admit your wrong


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## Adbam (Jun 25, 2015)

The term fare should be consistent on all Uber notations documents and pages


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Adbam said:


> The term fare should be consistent on all Uber notations documents and pages


Sorry, Tuscon... just like Aric, (who hasn't even been around long enough to receive a check for driving), you just don't get it.

The OP asked for help understanding the pay statement.
I've explained the pay statement and the difference between 
Fares (charged to the rider by YOU, the driver) 
Earnings, 
and Fares generated... 
how they are listed and how they are broken down in detail more times than should be necessary for anyone to understand. 
I hope it's been helpful to some. 
Clearly, explaining things to people who do not want to understand is pointless.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jrboy said:


> we need a whole lot of help explaining pay statement.


Agreed - it would be nice if Uber TRAINED drivers how to read and understand their documentation BEFORE they let drivers start working.


> not that it's ambiguous but misleading.


Most things that aren't understood can be called 'misleading'.
I felt the exact same way when I started driving Uber.
But I took the time to understand how things are reported - and WHY Uber does it that way.

Many folks here seems to think that Uber is in business to please driver's, but when it comes to a choice between making driver's 'happy' and asserting their definition of the company as a Technology Company (as opposed to a transportation company), They will go with protecting the company and its investors, not pleasing the independent contractor drivers.


> but drivers are starting to get smart.


Speak for yourself.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> But the "other partner" can try to dictate driver partners' business...?


ha... can you show me where in the partner agreement it says that we (drivers) are EQUAL partners?  This, I think, is what judge Chen has been making fun of at Uber's expense in the cases that have come before his court (9th District, CA).


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

elelegido said:


> Anyway, however you spin it, Uber's claims of "earn $x in fares", when the quoted fares will include an srf which the driver will never see is dishonest and misleading.


YUP!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Aric Boger said:


> when I - the driver - login to my Uber account online, the first thing it shows me is a summary page with the word FARES on it. Clearly, the implication by Uber here is to relay to me the gross earnings from the rides I've given.


Clearly? Really?
Since that's not what I ever thought that meant...
and it is CLEARLY not what it is... then it ain't nearly as 'clear' as you seem to think.

If you owned a store and a customer purchased something from you - and you rang it up in the cash register...
what is the $ amount shown as the total on the cash register display?
Is it your EARNINGS?
- or is it the TOTAL SALE AMOUNT that the customer pays?
*It's the total retail price - including sales tax. *
It's not you earnings amount.
*That SUMMARY page is your driver cash register.*


> Why - as the driver - would I care what the riders' fees are, unless of course, it directly translates to what I receive as payment?


Truth is, you don't need that information.
I'm not sure I would display it to drivers - because of all the confusion it creates.
But I'd rather have more information than less -
and I appreciate that Uber shows me how much I am being screwed over in the Uber fee -
and I would be pissed off if they didn't show me the gross fare.


> I would only care about fees to the rider if I'm the rider.


With only five rides under your belt, you may not have had this yet,
but YOUR riders will be asking you "how much was the fare?" at the end of the trip.
Uber only just started showing a pop-up in the driver's app that shows the fare total so you can see it (and it doesn't always work) - and communicate it to riders.
The only other way to quickly see the total FARE that you charged your rider is on that page.


> You have to ask yourself, what is the purpose of Uber showing the driver the riders' fees??


For 'transparency': it is required in order to maintain Uber's assertion that it is a technology company with independent contractors as drivers, and not a transportation company.

I hope you are not seriously suggesting that Uber should provide drivers with LESS information.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Agreed - it would be nice if Uber TRAINED drivers how to read and understand their documentation BEFORE they let drivers start working.
> 
> Most things that aren't understood can be called 'misleading'.
> I felt the exact same way when I started driving Uber.
> ...


you're so smart. you are absolutely right... uber is not there to please it's drivers. and yes they would choose to protect it's investors rather than protecting drivers. i guess i'm the stupid one... i thought we were called "partners". just another uber deceptive lie. just like they say we are ic's but then threaten with deactivation because we decline to pick up pax 17 minutes away. thank you for helping me understand that uber doesn't care about us drivers. that's why every uber driver that understands this must see all the more the need for unity on Oct. 16th.


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## Adbam (Jun 25, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Sorry, Tuscon... just like Aric, (who hasn't even been around long enough to receive a check for driving), you just don't get it.
> 
> The OP asked for help understanding the pay statement.
> I've explained the pay statement and the difference between
> ...


This threads question was answered on the 1st page. You hijacked it arguing a point for 2 pages that was incorrect. You still won't admit that you were wrong. You focus on 1 piece of someone's argument and ignore the whole paragraph.

You are on this forum to argue. Thats it. That's what gets you off. No one cares about you and your opinion on this forum. You don't help. A good debater admits when he is wrong. Why didn't you quote any of the other things I said and just focused on the one sentence?

Maybe because you have to be right all the time. I bet you can't stay in any long term relationships and also can't keep employees for this supposed successful business you run.

Just delete your account and leave troll.


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## Adbam (Jun 25, 2015)

Michael you are clearly wrong this is your quote ....

"I've posted the screenshots of my Summary page AND of my Pay Statement pages.
In the pages shown to me, the FARE amounts are consistent and equal - and defined identically"

....the pay statement fare and the summary fare are different. You said they were the same. I'm not talking about anything else right now. Just admit you argued a point incorrectly for 2 pages.

I know it hurts you to say those words. "I was wrong". But it may help you start to heal yourself and become a better person.

To anyone else reading this Michael has been a condescending dbag on many threads. He puts people down, argues with everyone and really doesn't help people. Just look at this thread and how he battled everyone on it. I just want to give him some of his own medicine. He was wrong and it hurts him.

Prove me wrong Michael say the words.

"I was wrong."

Do it.

Do it.

(He wont)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Adbam said:


> This threads question was answered on the 1st page. You hijacked it arguing a point for 2 pages that was incorrect. You still won't admit that you were wrong. You focus on 1 piece of someone's argument and ignore the whole paragraph.
> 
> You are on this forum to argue. Thats it. That's what gets you off. No one cares about you and your opinion on this forum. You don't help. A good debater admits when he is wrong. Why didn't you quote any of the other things I said and just focused on the one sentence?
> 
> ...


You're a genius. Glad you have it all figured out.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Adbam said:


> Michael you are clearly wrong this is your quote ....
> 
> "I've posted the screenshots of my Summary page AND of my Pay Statement pages.
> In the pages shown to me, the FARE amounts are consistent and equal - and defined identically"
> ...


Are you blind? Have trouble with numbers?
The FARE amounts are identical...
In the EARNINGS section of the pay statement it is just broken down to show you the time/mileage and the 'rider fee'/SRF separately.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Adbam said:


> Just delete your account and leave troll.


Adbam What ego you have! 
Who died and made you lord over the forum?
... talk about trolls! hehe

and what a waste of pixels - posting over and over and contributing zero here.
Congrats - with over 1,200 'likes' to my posts, you are now only the second person I've ever added to my 'ignore' list...
not something I do lightly. That says a lot about you.


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## Adbam (Jun 25, 2015)

Haha see everyone he would rather ignore before he admits he made a mistake. 

A few months ago he almost made me ignore him because he was so mean putting me and everyone else down. But no I knew I could get him back at his own game. See how he still cant admit he made a mistake. Now I can go back to being a positive pro driver forum member. 

Look at my posts if you all want proof. I give great driver advice.

I am honored to be his 2nd ignore. Everyone should do the same for him.


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## jrboy (Sep 14, 2015)

pax are finding out about the strike. last night a pax asked about the strike, gave me a $5 tip and said she always thought the tip was included.


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