# Schrodinger’s pax



## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

The paradoxical thought experiment of Schrödinger’s cat can be loosely applied to potential Uber passengers (pax) when making the decision to accept their ride or pick them up.

Every ride offer (ping) is either profitable or unprofitable for the driver. That potential profitability is known in advance only to the Uber system. The driver has a choice of either accepting or declining every offer. Declining an offer will leave the potential profitability forever unknown to the driver. There are probabilities based on day, time and general pickup area but there is no certainty.

If a ride offer is accepted, the potential profitability is still unknown. The exact pickup address is only revealed by Uber upon acceptance and can offer greater clarity in probability, but there is still no certainty. Upon acceptance of a ride offer, the driver is left with a few choices. Let’s use an example to illustrate the choices and what they reveal about Schrodinger’s ride. Let’s say this ride offer is for a pickup 20 minutes away.

The strategy of a new driver (noob) is to accept every ride offer and complete every ride. The noob driver travels 20 minutes, waits 5 minutes, picks up the passenger and discovers this ride will pay the minimum of less than $3.00 for a 5 minute ride. Since a majority of rides pay the driver less than $5.00 this is the most likely scenario. That driver spent 30 minutes and drove many miles to earn less than $3.00 and determine Schrodinger’s pax was indeed unprofitable.

Another strategy is to contact the passenger and ask where they are going. It’s like peeking inside to see what Uber is hiding from the driver. When it is revealed that the ride would pay less than $3.00 the unprofitability of Schrodinger’s pax is revealed. The driver can cancel this ride and wait for another offer without expending any time or miles.

As part of the latter strategy, a ride can be cancelled after acceptance, if the exact pickup address increases the probability of an unprofitable ride. This is like getting some insight into the status of Schrodinger’s pax based on an accumulation of past experience. There will always be some uncertainty with this method but it is better than losing money!

All is not lost though. If you find a Schrodinger’s pax to be unprofitable and determine that type of ride is a daily pattern, there is a remedy. Give that passenger 1 star and you will never lose money on their habitual money losing rides again.

I have done both the “noob” strategy and the “screen and cancel” strategy. The latter enabled me to earn more money while driving fewer hours and miles.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Rideshare Dude said:


> The paradoxical thought experiment of Schrödinger's cat can be loosely applied to potential Uber passengers (pax) when making the decision to accept their ride or pick them up.
> 
> Every ride offer (ping) is either profitable or unprofitable for the driver. That potential profitability is known in advance only to the Uber system. The driver has a choice of either accepting or declining every offer. Declining an offer will leave the potential profitability forever unknown to the driver. There are probabilities based on day, time and general pickup area but there is no certainty.
> 
> ...


So
Driving Uber is Like Russian Roulette ?

How about
Uber
RESTORE DRIVER PAY
SO EVERY RIDE IS PROFITABLE !

What a Ridiculous Business Strategy ! To Even Offer drivers unprofitable Rides !


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Rideshare Dude said:


> Every ride offer profitable or unprofitable for the driver. That potential profitability is known in advance only to the Uber system. The driver has a choice of either accepting or declining every offer. Declining an offer will leave the potential profitability forever unknown to the driver. There are probabilities based on day, time and general pickup area but there is no certainty.
> 
> If a ride offer is accepted, the potential profitability is still unknown. The exact pickup address is only revealed by Uber upon acceptance and can offer greater clarity in probability, but there is still no certainty. Upon acceptance of a ride offer, the driver is left with a few choices. Let's use an example to illustrate the choices and what they reveal about Schrodinger's ride. Let's say this ride offer is for a pickup 20 minutes away.
> 
> ...


You are wrong here.
I know every ride here is going to be unprofitable &#128514; (after real costs)
Avg ride is $3.80ish in traffic
If you get a long one.. 12 bucks you come back empty for 30 odd minutes.
The problem here is someone in an office in SF setting prices in a place he has never been. 
Local cabs charge double for our longer rides cause they know it's always an empty trip home



tohunt4me said:


> So
> Driving Uber is Like Russian Roulette ?
> 
> How about
> ...


I don't buy it on the whole.
i've said here many times the pay was great and the rate never went down.
Our problem was when it was great too many people heard and everyone became an Uber driver.
Then we just sat empty 
One Friday night we went from 3 10 dollar surge rides an hour to 1 no surge 6 dollar rides an hour

How do you fix that ?

People will not work at roofing McDonald's or Walmart for 15 an hour if they hear you can make 35 an hour sitting in an air-conditioned car with no boss



tohunt4me said:


> So
> Driving Uber is Like Russian Roulette ?
> 
> How about
> ...


I wish I knew the solution



tohunt4me said:


> So
> Driving Uber is Like Russian Roulette ?
> 
> How about
> ...


I don't want anyone to think I'm beetching
It's a tough world but somehow I've found a way to make a buck on the system 
Only online when the airport is red. 
29 odd 45 mile trips in 20 odd hours driving time 35 online 15% accept rate
1 in 3 is just ok as it's a under 10 mile trip that just pays + 6 to + 10
Amazing I did one where a 1/2 hour trip with empty return paid me 15&#128514;
Shows how bad it is. +7 is barely worth it here


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Rideshare Dude said:


> . The exact pickup address is only revealed by Uber upon acceptance and can offer greater clarity in probability, but there is still no certainty. Upon acceptance of a ride offer, the driver is left with a few choices.


Lyft, as a rule, does show the address. At times, though, all that you get is something like "Modern Nails". As I do not get my nails done anywhere, and girlfriend's nail parlour does not have that name, I do not know where that is. Uber actually used to show 
the pick-up address.

Uber has been known to alter the orientation of the map and compress it to deceive you into accepting a ping that you normally would decline. I do not know if it has analysed overall accept/decline patterns or does it for individual drivers. It would not be difficult to program a computer do it either way. This way, if it determines that Driver A almost never accepts pings that are behind him, it can take his direction of travel (or last known direction, if he is sitting) and re-orient the map to make it look like the ping is ahead of him. If it "sees" that a driver never accepts pings that are X far from him in distance or time, it can give a false time figure or compress the map to make a ping look closer than it is. I have seen this personally more than a few times. Every once in while, it has burned me. As a rule, this is either a cancel or no-cover, depending on my cancellation rate.

If I am not moving or can pull over, usually I can take a quick peek at the map that the ping shows and decide if I can cover it or not, but, most TNC drivers have no idea where they are going, so they do not have that advantage.



Rideshare Dude said:


> Let's say this ride offer is for a pickup 20 minutes away.


In a major metropolitan area, any driver who accepts a ping twenty minutes from him is a fool. This might be different in a rural market, smaller city market or even the farthest exurbs in a metropolitan market.



Rideshare Dude said:


> The strategy of a new driver (noob) is to accept every ride offer and complete every ride. The noob driver travels 20 minutes, waits 5 minutes, picks up the passenger and discovers this ride will pay the minimum of less than $3.00 for a 5 minute ride


A rookie who does not quickly learn not to accept those pings will not last long in this business, unless he is independently wealthy.



Rideshare Dude said:


> .Another strategy is to contact the passenger and ask where they are going.


Do that enough and the driver will receive enough complaints that either Uber of Lyft will begin to send him nastygrams that threaten deactivation. If the driver continues this behaviour despite that, either platform will eventually make good on its threat.



Rideshare Dude said:


> All is not lost though. If you find a Schrodinger's pax to be unprofitable and determine that type of ride is a daily pattern, there is a remedy. Give that passenger 1 star and you will never lose money on their habitual money losing rides again.


In my market, that applies only to Lyft. It does not apply to Uber here. On Lyft, if you rate three or less, you never are assigned to that customer again. In fact, I award several "prophylactic three stars" every week. These passengers are generally acceptable as passengers, but, I do not like the trip. Especially when it is obvious that they take the same trip all the time, I want to make sure that I never get it again. Awarding three stars takes care of that on Lyft. The only way to avoid this on Uber, in this market, at least, is either cancel after accept or no-cover. If you do the former too many times, you will be de-activated. Lyft is quicker to de-activate over cancel-after-accept than is Uber.



Rideshare Dude said:


> I have done both the "noob" strategy and the "screen and cancel" strategy. The latter enabled me to earn more money while driving fewer hours and miles.


Keep up with the latter and the nastygrams will begin. After sufficient nastygrams, you get de-activation.


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

Or you can get your acceptance rate up to the point that you can see the trip time length. Then, with trip minutes combined with pick up minutes and pick up miles, you can make an educated guess at the profitability of that trip. It's not hard to keep your acceptance rate over 85% and still be declining several trips a day. Yes, you knowingly take some marginal ones along the way, but at least you aren't blindly accepting the truly crappy ones.


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## W00dbutcher (Jan 14, 2019)

Rideshare Dude said:


> The paradoxical thought experiment of Schrödinger's cat can be loosely applied to potential Uber passengers (pax) when making the decision to accept their ride or pick them up.
> 
> Every ride offer (ping) is either profitable or unprofitable for the driver. That potential profitability is known in advance only to the Uber system. The driver has a choice of either accepting or declining every offer. Declining an offer will leave the potential profitability forever unknown to the driver. There are probabilities based on day, time and general pickup area but there is no certainty.
> 
> ...


Or just don't pick up ANYTHING over 5 miles away. Unless it's a surge.

This is the way.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

I gained Pro status briefly but then lost it again within days due to my acceptance rate. On Thursdays and Fridays I would sit in the parking lot of the Executive Business Conference Center of a major tech campus. I would spend all day running employees flying on business to and from the airport. Each ride was $45 fo $60.

Unfortunately about 3 miles away from where I sat, was a city bus transit center. I would repeatedly get pings from that transit center for a 3$ ride. No, I want to work the tech campus. I was an independent contractor. This was my choice is to run airport rides. I do not want to take someone home from the bus stop. I also don't want to get stuck running in circles, taking the locals 2 miles to the grocery store and strip mall.

Bye Bye Pro status.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> I want to work the tech campus. I was an independent contractor. This was my choice is to run airport rides.


I have had similar experiences. I sit near Catholic U because I am looking for a job from there. Most of those jobs are going where I want to go. There is a series of apartments not far from there, in two directions, known for crime, drug dealing and assorted other horrors. I do not want to go there, either to pick up or discharge. I decline all pings from anywhere but the University or one of the monasteries. Of course, since COVID-19, I can not work Catholic U, because _thar' ain't no stoo-dintz t'haul_

Similarly, at night, I avoid the club strips. I will work the residential areas near the club strips, but, let the ants or the illegals (in the cab business) work those jobs. I can take calls at private addresses or apartments in the cab or pings at the same in the Uber/Lyft car. I can decline either the call or the ping on the club strip. As a result, my acceptance rate stays in the pits. NEVER will I attain Pro Status despite my being the most professional out there. At one point, my accept rate on Lyft was THREE per-cent.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> I gained Pro status briefly but then lost it again within days due to my acceptance rate. On Thursdays and Fridays I would sit in the parking lot of the Executive Business Conference Center of a major tech campus. I would spend all day running employees flying on business to and from the airport. Each ride was $45 fo $60.
> 
> Unfortunately about 3 miles away from where I sat, was a city bus transit center. I would repeatedly get pings from that transit center for a 3$ ride. No, I want to work the tech campus. I was an independent contractor. This was my choice is to run airport rides. I do not want to take someone home from the bus stop. I also don't want to get stuck running in circles, taking the locals 2 miles to the grocery store and strip mall.
> 
> Bye Bye Pro status.


I hear you. I groomed my account so I could get pro status for nye. I only wanted short rides close by to maximize surge and quest. Well, at least I had pro for 12 hours.


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## Free willy (Oct 11, 2020)

Rideshare Dude said:


> Every ride offer (ping) is either profitable or unprofitable for the driver.


I disagree with this. Some rides are more profitable than others but not accepting a ride means no money for you at all and it also means the app will offer the next ride to someone else, first. I think drivers generally spend too much time worrying about the destination.

I take 98% of all rides when I have a juicy quest available. Uber used to offer us $2000+ via Quests & Bonuses each month. The fastest way to collect that big monthly bonus was to take as many pool rides as you could while mixing it up with airport rides and other more profitable rides. You have to know your market too and where to go for the better rides but it was always as important to keep the wheels moving with a pax, whether it was back to back $4 rides or longer ones.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Free willy said:


> I disagree with this. Some rides are more profitable than others but not accepting a ride means no money for you at all and it also means the app will offer the next ride to someone else, first. I think drivers generally spend too much time worrying about the destination.
> 
> I take 98% of all rides when I have a juicy quest available. Uber used to offer us $2000+ via Quests & Bonuses each month. The fastest way to collect that big monthly bonus was to take as many pool rides as you could while mixing it up with airport rides and other more profitable rides. You have to know your market too and where to go for the better rides but it was always as important to keep the wheels moving with a pax, whether it was back to back $4 rides or longer ones.
> 
> View attachment 542697


The rules are much different when you have a quest or other promotion. Many parts of the country have nothing right now. In my area quests amount to a buck a ride so I take that into account. A buck still does not make a $2.50 delivery or a $3.20 ride worth it.


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## Free willy (Oct 11, 2020)

Disgusted Driver said:


> The rules are much different when you have a quest or other promotion. Many parts of the country have nothing right now. In my area quests amount to a buck a ride so I take that into account. A buck still does not make a $2.50 delivery or a $3.20 ride worth it.


I don't look at it this way. When I decide to work, I work. I take as many rides as I can in the time I have available. Those short $3/rides take just a few minutes to complete and if you do 15 of them in an hour you are still making money. Plus you have more tips available.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Free willy said:


> I take 98% of all rides *when I have a juicy quest available*


(emphasis added)

Your operative words are those emphasised. In fact, the purpose of the quests, consecutive trip bonuses and the like are to get you to accept more pings.

If I am working a decent promotion of any kind, my accept rate will approach your numbers. While some will caterwaul about the structure of certain quest payoffs, the rub is that if you are going to be out there anyhow, why not see if you can hit it and take the free money? I might get a quest that offers me sixty bananas for thirty jobs and seventy for fifty. While my bonus for the first thirty is two dollars per trip, my bonus for the next twenty is only fifty cents per trip. Yes, the payoff does [perform a vacuum creating action], but, I am going to be out here anyhow running jobs. Why should I not take Uber's ten bananas? It might not be much, but it beats zero.

If the bonuses are attainable, why not work them? There have been some that are unattainable, but I do not bother with them.

You do, however, work differently when working a promotion as opposed to just working or even being out there because you really have nothing better to do.. It is called "working smarter".



Free willy said:


> . Uber used to offer us $2000+ via Quests & Bonuses each month. The fastest way to collect that big monthly bonus was to take as many pool rides as you could while mixing it up with airport rides and other more profitable rides.


The Pools became profitable any way that you took them when working a decent bonus. As each pickup counts as a ride, you got paid whether you got a subsequent customer or not. If you got the subsequent customer, you wrote a tally mark toward your quota plus the peanuts for scooping him. If you did not, you got your cancellation. Pick up one or two, shuffle two will make a short to mediocre Pool ride pay better than a cab meter. If you can cover three/shuffle two, you get to double dip: you collect your better than cab meter payoff plus you mark three toward your quota with a minimal investment of your time. This, of course, does not apply to Lyft, as it stopped paying for no-shows on Line long before the pandemic started. On Lyft, the Lines become profitable only when working a decent bonus.



Free willy said:


> You have to know your market too and where to go for the better rides


^^^^^^^^this, This, THIS and THIS^^^^^^^^

Sadly for them, there are too few out here who actually know what they are going, never mind doing..
It might work to the advantage of those who do know something or have learned it, as we have less competition. While they are doing the ant jobs, we are making money.



Free willy said:


> but it was always as important to keep the wheels moving with a pax, whether it was back to back $4 rides or longer ones.


The profitability of those minimums varies by market and situation. Here, you can make money off of those pop-pop-pop minimums. The one thing that you must try to avoid are those long minimums (or close to minimums). Those are easy to find in an urban environment and it can play havoc with your revenue stream. Before COVID-19, there were minimums and little-more-than-minimums that could take fifteen to twenty minutes to run. You can get dry reamed on some of the longer jobs, as well, but, those tend to vary by market and situation, as well. As long as you can avoid the long minimums and multiple stop jobs, if you can keep someone in your back seat, you can make it pay.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Free willy said:


> I don't look at it this way. When I decide to work, I work. I take as many rides as I can in the time I have available. Those short $3/rides take just a few minutes to complete and if you do 15 of them in an hour you are still making money. Plus you have more tips available.


Given that in my 6 years of driving i have never been able to do more than 6 rides in an hour and tips are 10% for me over thousands of rides i am not interested in working like that for the promise of 15 or 20 bucks an hour before expenses.


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## Free willy (Oct 11, 2020)

Disgusted Driver said:


> Given that in my 6 years of driving i have never been able to do more than 6 rides in an hour and tips are 10% for me over thousands of rides i am not interested in working like that for the promise of 15 or 20 bucks an hour before expenses.


Now that I think about it you are right, 15 rides an hour is not going to happen. lol I think 8 is the most I have done, here(not including pools). I can't believe I suggested one could do 15 of them in an hour. Clearly, I need more coffee this AM. My apologies :wink:


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Free willy said:


> 15 rides an hour is not going to happen. I think 8 is the most I have done, here(not including pools).


If you are doing eight to the hour for three bananas a pop, you are at twenty four the hour, which is slightly over minimum profitability for this market. As I am a twenty per-center on Uber, my minimum for this market is four bananas. I am a twenty-five per-center on Lyft, so it is three dollars seventy five. If I can do five minimums the hour on Uber, here, I am at bare minimum profitability. On Lyft, it would take six and put me slightly over bare minimum.


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## Free willy (Oct 11, 2020)

Another Uber Driver said:


> If you are doing eight to the hour for three bananas a pop, you are at twenty four the hour, which is slightly over minimum profitability for this market. As I am a twenty per-center on Uber, my minimum for this market is four bananas. I am a twenty-five per-center on Lyft, so it is three dollars seventy five. If I can do five minimums the hour on Uber, here, I am at bare minimum profitability. On Lyft, it would take six and put me slightly over bare minimum.


yeah, here the minimum is $3.75 ride? They may have changed it since and usually half of them will be close to $5 or $6/ride. $30/hr is as low as I'll go, to make it worthwhile.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Not really a Schrödinger’s paradox. I kinda see this more as a Monte Hall style Door #1 vs Door #2.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

Schrodinger's pax, not to be confused with Schroeder's piano :biggrin:


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Atom guy said:


> It's not hard to keep your acceptance rate over 85% and still be declining several trips a day. Yes, you knowingly take some marginal ones along the way, but at least you aren't blindly accepting the truly crappy ones.


That's in your area
In my area where the average ride is 3.80 and I turn down 17 22 21 minutes all day long
To keep 85% I'll be lucky if I was grossing five bucks an hour


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> The paradoxical thought experiment of Schrödinger's cat can be loosely applied to potential Uber passengers (pax) when making the decision to accept their ride or pick them up.
> 
> Every ride offer (ping) is either profitable or unprofitable for the driver. That potential profitability is known in advance only to the Uber system. The driver has a choice of either accepting or declining every offer. Declining an offer will leave the potential profitability forever unknown to the driver. There are probabilities based on day, time and general pickup area but there is no certainty.
> 
> ...


I'm not entirely sure you understand the Original Schrödinger's Cat thought experiment. But I get the point, ride-hail as too many damned unknowns.


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

Atom guy said:


> Or you can get your acceptance rate up to the point that you can see the trip time length. Then, with trip minutes combined with pick up minutes and pick up miles, you can make an educated guess at the profitability of that trip. It's not hard to keep your acceptance rate over 85% and still be declining several trips a day. Yes, you knowingly take some marginal ones along the way, but at least you aren't blindly accepting the truly crappy ones.


It's pointless to see trip duration if you have to accept 9 out of 10 rides anyway. Some days my first 10-20 Uber pings are 15+ minutes away.



_Tron_ said:


> Not really a Schrödinger's paradox. I kinda see this more as a Monte Hall style Door #1 vs Door #2.


There is only one door and you don't know what is behind it.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

Got to get Schrodinger and Pavlov together, and introduce fish in their mix.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Honestly i view the short runs a little differently.

On New Year’s Eve I had about 10 rides that were under $10.

however including tips those 10 fares were still $80 including tips.

In the taxi short trips happen, sometimes you get someone that is going back to their hotel and it’s only 2 miles down the road.

At the end of the day, I get these short runs, and they arnt really worth the time and I’d be much better off getting other fares.

But it’s part of the job... I’ll get enough $10-20+ fares that will make up for it.

And on the last day I worked my fares averaged out to $17 a fare. 1/3 of my fares were half of my average fare for the day.

And my best fare was 4 times the average.

Would I have been better without the shorts?

yeah probobly. But some people only need to get a mile or 2.


but none of this really applies to Uber/lyft around here thou.

10 short cab fares totals about $70- $100 here. 10 short Uber fares is about $30.

The difference between $30 and $100 pretty damned sizable...


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

Rideshare Dude said:


> It's pointless to see trip duration if you have to accept 9 out of 10 rides anyway. Some days my first 10-20 Uber pings are 15+ minutes away.
> 
> 
> There is only one door and you don't know what is behind it.


There's nothing wrong with a 15 minute pickup if the trip is at least as long. Which you won't know unless the keep your acceptance rate up


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Atom guy said:


> Which you won't know unless the keep your acceptance rate up


....or live in Calif where you get all the info you need. :thumbup:


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

_Tron_ said:


> Not really a Schrödinger's paradox. I kinda see this more as a Monte Hall style Door #1 vs Door #2.


Actually, I figure it's an exercise in Bayesian statistics. Seriously.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

I'm gonna have to look that one up. Over my head.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Atom guy said:


> There's nothing wrong with a 15 minute pickup if the trip is at least as long. Which you won't know unless the keep your acceptance rate up


&#128514;At 60 cents a mile 8 cents a minute.
I did a 40 mile 45 minute trip last night.
Miles 23 dollars time 4 dollars
Unpaid 45 return
27 bucks??
it was a six dollar surge
33??
Minus 10 in gas
23 for 1.5 = 15 an hour before depreciation and repair costs
With depreciation comes out to a loss

And that's without any pick up time at all and a surge &#128514;&#128514;

To supply me, gas and a car I need to get very near 20 an hour
If I can I do home

EVERY place is different 
You have to do what works for you and your specific area


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## Blatherskite (Nov 30, 2016)

The relativistic wave results indicated by Dirac equations should lead any thinking driver to realize that Uber is _stringing _her/him along.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Blatherskite said:


> The relativistic wave results indicated by Dirac equations should lead any thinking driver to realize that Uber is _stringing _her/him along.


I always SOLVE the WAVEFUNCTION, *Ψ, *while I'm waiting for pings.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> I gained Pro status briefly but then lost it again within days due to my acceptance rate. On Thursdays and Fridays I would sit in the parking lot of the Executive Business Conference Center of a major tech campus. I would spend all day running employees flying on business to and from the airport. Each ride was $45 fo $60.
> 
> Unfortunately about 3 miles away from where I sat, was a city bus transit center. I would repeatedly get pings from that transit center for a 3$ ride. No, I want to work the tech campus. I was an independent contractor. This was my choice is to run airport rides. I do not want to take someone home from the bus stop. I also don't want to get stuck running in circles, taking the locals 2 miles to the grocery store and strip mall.
> 
> Bye Bye Pro status.


I have taken to signing off after accepting a ride or delivery that appears worth while. That way they can't send me pings until the current trip is completed. If it terminates in a location i don't want to be in, i can get back close to my preferred area of operation before going back online.

This has worked pretty well for the past two years.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

UberBeemer said:


> I have taken to signing off after accepting a ride or delivery that appears worth while. That way they can't send me pings until the current trip is completed. If it terminates in a location i don't want to be in, i can get back close to my preferred area of operation before going back online.
> 
> This has worked pretty well for the past two years.


That does work except in Seattle where they have Re-Match on airport runs. With that, you have to leave your app on. When you get to the airport and drop off your pax, Uber gives you a pick up out of the airport and if you hit your DF fast enough, going back the way you came. Even without my DF my Re-Match runs take me almost all the way back to where I was.

With Re-Match, that moves you right to the front of the line for an airport pick up, soon as you get there, ahead of all 100 to 250 Ants who've been sitting waiting in the airport queue for hours. There where times I did 4 back to back airport runs before I got a break and ran over to the Ant Hill to use the restroom. In chatting with some of the drivers, they told me they had been sitting there the whole time frame that I was doing those runs.

Yes.....that's how Uber treats Seattle Ants.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> That does work except in Seattle where they have Re-Match on airport runs. With that, you have to leave your app on. When you get to the airport and drop off your pax, Uber gives you a pick up out of the airport and if you hit your DF fast enough, going back the way you came. Even without my DF my Re-Match runs take me almost all the way back to where I was.
> 
> With Re-Match, that moves you right to the front of the line for an airport pick up, soon as you get there, ahead of all 100 to 250 Ants who've been sitting waiting in the airport queue for hours. There where times I did 4 back to back airport runs before I got a break and ran over to the Ant Hill to use the restroom. In chatting with some of the drivers, they told me they had been sitting there the whole time frame that I was doing those runs.
> 
> Yes.....that's how Uber treats Seattle Ants.


The rematches always came too fast for me to implement the DF, and i think DF would have disqualified you for rematch in chicago. I could be wrong, its been a while.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

UberBeemer said:


> i think DF would have disqualified you for rematch in chicago.


If you try to set the destination filter at an airport in the Washington/Baltimore market, or, if you have it on before you get there, you will get a message that tells you to leave the airport if you want to use the destination filter.

These days, in this market, at least, the destination filter of either one of them is less than useless.


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

Lissetti said:


> That does work except in Seattle where they have Re-Match on airport runs. With that, you have to leave your app on. When you get to the airport and drop off your pax, Uber gives you a pick up out of the airport and if you hit your DF fast enough, going back the way you came. Even without my DF my Re-Match runs take me almost all the way back to where I was.
> 
> With Re-Match, that moves you right to the front of the line for an airport pick up, soon as you get there, ahead of all 100 to 250 Ants who've been sitting waiting in the airport queue for hours. There where times I did 4 back to back airport runs before I got a break and ran over to the Ant Hill to use the restroom. In chatting with some of the drivers, they told me they had been sitting there the whole time frame that I was doing those runs.
> 
> Yes.....that's how Uber treats Seattle Ants.


We cannot set DF at or near the airport.


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

_Tron_ said:


> I'm gonna have to look that one up. Over my head.


Well, I'm certainly not an expert in it.

I think we covered Bayesian statistics in about one lecture in the one statistics class I've ever had.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

I live in a town of around 25K people. Every single ride that never leaves town is a losing ride, as I typically have to drive 3 to 5 miles to pick them up to take them 1 or 2 miles all through stop and go traffic. You may wonder why I even go online here.

Well, our town is about 30 minutes away from a city of over 1 million, with an airport 45 minutes away from us. Our town has three large factories and business people frequently fly into the large city and take an Uber 45 minutes to our city to have a business meeting. Being the only Uber driver online in our city (and I'm online while sitting on my couch at home) I get their ping and make $50 giving them a ride to the airport and then set my destination filter back home where I usually make another $10 to $20. So this ride requests work out well for me.

I've probably 1 starred at least 400 people in the past 5 years that live here and used me once for a local trip, so that I never get their requests anymore. I still have to 1 start two or three a week, but the trips into the city by out of towners still exceed those local requests, even during the pandemic.

Without the ability to blacklist (1 star) riders, it would be impossible to make anymore money here. I've seen the occasional new driver pop up, be online for a few weeks and then disappear numerous times over the past 5 years. Obviously they never learned the blacklisting trick and got sick of losing money on all the local ride requests.


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## Ignatowski (Mar 23, 2019)

Rideshare Dude said:


> The paradoxical thought experiment of Schrödinger's cat can be loosely applied to potential Uber passengers (pax) when making the decision to accept their ride or pick them up.
> 
> Every ride offer (ping) is either profitable or unprofitable for the driver.


I guess the thought experiment would be:
- until you hit Start Ride, the ride is both unprofitable (with probability P) and profitable (with profitability 1-P).

Al Einstein (and two other guys) tweeted that inside a molecule, two opposite things could both be true at the same time (the molecule has decayed and given-off an electron, AND it hasn't, both at the same time). That was the "EPR paradox." Erwin Schroedinger called him on it, and said he could build a Kitty Kill Box, where a Geiger counter hooked to [email protected] would detect the decaying molecule, and release cyanide gas, killing a cute kitten. This would tie "real life" to molecular state. If Al's "paradox" was real, then the cat should be both dead and alive at the same time, in real life. This was Erwin's way of saying "Heh, yer EPR paradox crap is BS, Al!" But lots of people have looked at it differently.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

TheDoc said:


> Hey, what's the "Past Sponsor" under your avatar?
> Did you put some $$$ into investing in uberpeople.net?


Yes.


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

Free willy said:


> I disagree with this. Some rides are more profitable than others but not accepting a ride means no money for you at all and it also means the app will offer the next ride to someone else, first. I think drivers generally spend too much time worrying about the destination.
> 
> I take 98% of all rides when I have a juicy quest available. Uber used to offer us $2000+ via Quests & Bonuses each month. The fastest way to collect that big monthly bonus was to take as many pool rides as you could while mixing it up with airport rides and other more profitable rides. You have to know your market too and where to go for the better rides but it was always as important to keep the wheels moving with a pax, whether it was back to back $4 rides or longer ones.
> 
> View attachment 542697


Avast majority of the rides in my market pay less than five dollars. It is extremely important to screen rides here.


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

Ignatowski said:


> I guess the thought experiment would be:
> - until you hit Start Ride, the ride is both unprofitable (with probability P) and profitable (with profitability 1-P).
> 
> Al Einstein (and two other guys) tweeted that inside a molecule, two opposite things could both be true at the same time (the molecule has decayed and given-off an electron, AND it hasn't, both at the same time). That was the "EPR paradox." Erwin Schroedinger called him on it, and said he could build a Kitty Kill Box, where a Geiger counter hooked to [email protected] would detect the decaying molecule, and release cyanide gas, killing a cute kitten. This would tie "real life" to molecular state. If Al's "paradox" was real, then the cat should be both dead and alive at the same time, in real life. This was Erwin's way of saying "Heh, yer EPR paradox crap is BS, Al!" But lots of people have looked at it differently.


Bear thinks you named yourself after the wrong Christopher Lloyd character.


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## Mash Ghasem (Jan 12, 2020)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Bear thinks you named yourself after the wrong Christopher Lloyd character.


Then, Doc Brown? Or Commander Kruge?


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

wallae said:


> &#128514;At 60 cents a mile 8 cents a minute.
> I did a 40 mile 45 minute trip last night.
> Miles 23 dollars time 4 dollars
> Unpaid 45 return
> ...














Atom guy said:


>


These types of trips are why I keep my acceptance rate up so I can see the whole trip. This was a 17 mile pickup, but a 52 mile trip. I was able to get return trips that took me all the way back to my area, which I was lucky to get.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Atom guy said:


> View attachment 543861
> 
> 
> 
> These types of trips are why I keep my acceptance rate up so I can see the whole trip. This was a 17 mile pickup, but a 52 mile trip. I was able to get return trips that took me all the way back to my area, which I was lucky to get.


Everyplace is different but I was able to squeak out 30 of them for 1300 all dollars last week in 15 hours of driving
My acceptance rate is under 20%


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## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

if acceptance rate and cancelation rate don't matter. . . .why even have them


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## Young Kim (Jan 28, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> I gained Pro status briefly but then lost it again within days due to my acceptance rate. On Thursdays and Fridays I would sit in the parking lot of the Executive Business Conference Center of a major tech campus. I would spend all day running employees flying on business to and from the airport. Each ride was $45 fo $60.
> 
> Unfortunately about 3 miles away from where I sat, was a city bus transit center. I would repeatedly get pings from that transit center for a 3$ ride. No, I want to work the tech campus. I was an independent contractor. This was my choice is to run airport rides. I do not want to take someone home from the bus stop. I also don't want to get stuck running in circles, taking the locals 2 miles to the grocery store and strip mall.
> 
> Bye Bye Pro status.


Well written and thought out post as usual!


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## Subaru_X (Apr 27, 2015)

If you absolutely must know the destination of your pax before starting the trip and you have an iPhone, you can use the airplane mode exploit to reveal the exact destination including any pre-entered stops _unless the pax has enabled PIN in their app. If you want to try this exploit (which I guarantee works), just search the forums for "airplane mode exploit" and you will find my post about it. Don't blame me if your CR jumps as a result though!


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Lissetti said:


> I gained Pro status briefly but then lost it again within days due to my acceptance rate. On Thursdays and Fridays I would sit in the parking lot of the Executive Business Conference Center of a major tech campus. I would spend all day running employees flying on business to and from the airport. Each ride was $45 fo $60.
> 
> Unfortunately about 3 miles away from where I sat, was a city bus transit center. I would repeatedly get pings from that transit center for a 3$ ride. No, I want to work the tech campus. I was an independent contractor. This was my choice is to run airport rides. I do not want to take someone home from the bus stop. I also don't want to get stuck running in circles, taking the locals 2 miles to the grocery store and strip mall.
> 
> Bye Bye Pro status.


What do you do after you drop a passenger at the airport? Do you wait for an incoming flight, or do you drive back empty to you starting point?


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## Subaru_X (Apr 27, 2015)

oldfart said:


> What do you do after you drop a passenger at the airport? Do you wait for an incoming flight, or do you drive back empty to you starting point?


I know you didn't ask me, but the answer to this question depends on the following:

Time of day - how many arrivals are scheduled
Airport rematch - is there an "Uber pro" system in your city which provides airport rematch to platinum drivers
Your time - what's more efficient for you - sitting for 20 minutes to 2 hours in an airport queue, or cruising into town to get back in amongst it and take trips within 15-20 minutes.


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## UberBeemer (Oct 23, 2015)

oldfart said:


> What do you do after you drop a passenger at the airport? Do you wait for an incoming flight, or do you drive back empty to you starting point?


Stop, Drop, and Roll...

Treat the airport like it's on fire, and get out toward the business parks or hotels nearby.


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## Mido toyota (Nov 1, 2015)

Free willy said:


> I don't look at it this way. When I decide to work, I work. I take as many rides as I can in the time I have available. Those short $3/rides take just a few minutes to complete and if you do 15 of them in an hour you are still making money. Plus you have more tips available.


15 rides in an hour wow , i mean that is more likely pool rides , which shouldn't be active during the covid pandemic


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

The only pick-ups I have done at airports are ones given to me when I was near the airport. Heck I don't even know where the airport waiting lots are or how to get to them. When they started the rematch at the airport I would turn off accepting rides before I got there. Every rematch I got always took me to the beach area.

When I turn requests back on I set a DF for home before leaving the airport. I get the message to leave airport to get DF rides and as soon as I get a few miles away it goes into looking for rides.

It would be nice to see a feature where if you took someone to an airport over 20 miles away Uber would ask you if you want a rematch back toward your destination and gave you the first rematch that way. I would be more inclined to wait a little for a possible ride back toward home.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

oldfart said:


> What do you do after you drop a passenger at the airport? Do you wait for an incoming flight, or do you drive back empty to you starting point?


In the Seattle area, the airport is petty far away from everything. I absolutely never sat and waited in Queue after dropping off. At our Ant Hill, the numbers of drivers waiting was usually 100 to 250 at all times.

This is just one section of it.









What I did depended on what car I was driving. If I was driving Uber's Prius C2 (Xchange Lease car) and didn't get a Rematch, then I'd most likely go offline and deadhead to where I wanted to be. Miles meant nothing to me. It wasn't my car and Uber had told me to run it to the ground so they could get their money from it. I might drive to the mountains (casinos) if I felt like it to get a ride. 48 to 52 MPG so if I burned $5. to make $50 plus, that worked for me.

When got my own car, the Corolla, I didn't burn miles unnecessarily. When I dropped a pax off, if I didn't get a Rematch, then I would set my DF for the airport and head 3 miles away to a small town that has lots of hotels. It's where lots of business travelers stay. Then I'd get a ping that would hopefully take me back to the airport and hopefully a Rematch that second time. If I didn't, then after I dropped off the pax, I'd head to a very large beverage company HQ about 7 miles from the airport with my DF set to the airport, and hopefully another Rematch. If all else failed, and I knew there were still lots business travelers requesting rides at my starting point, then I would occasionally go offline and deadhead back. I hated downtown Seattle and almost never worked it.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> Every ride offer (ping) is either profitable or unprofitable for the driver. That potential profitability is known in advance only to the Uber system. The driver has a choice of either accepting or declining every offer. Declining an offer will leave the potential profitability forever unknown to the driver. There are probabilities based on day, time and general pickup area but there is no certainty.
> .
> 
> I have done both the "noob" strategy and the "screen and cancel" strategy. The latter enabled me to earn more money while driving fewer hours and miles.


I take issue with your assumption that all rides fall into two categories; profitable and not profitable. I just dont think you can look at this rideshare thing one ride at a time.

Recently I dropped a passenger at their hotel ($40 ride) and headed back to the airport. I hit something at 80mph that cut my tire. That ended my day early costing me an estimated $100 and I had to buy a pair of tires that cost $400. If I looked at rideshare. one ride at a time, I lost $460 on that one ride. But I dont do that. .Rather, I add all my expenses for the year. and divide by the total miles I drive to determine my cost per mile. The point is, I averages my expenses by the mile and I do the same with income

Dont get me wrong, I do everything I can to limit dead miles. . ie I dont drive around aimlessly hoping for a ping. and I position my self either at the airport or at resort hotels expecting $30-$40 rides. But the fact is; a long pickup for a short ride. contributes to a positive cash flow too.. and who knows? that $3 ride from a vacation home to the beach, may be next weeks $80 cash ride to the airport. and become a regular airport cash customer


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

Mido toyota said:


> 15 rides in an hour wow , i mean that is more likely pool rides , which shouldn't be active during the covid pandemic


My best was 9 in an hour, all were heading south on Ocean Blvd/Collins Ave/Indian Creek Dr in Miami Beach. All were minimum fare trips and I drove 11.2 miles from where I was (Loggia Beach Park) to the last drop off (I-195/what ever road it turns into).


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> It's pointless to see trip duration if you have to accept 9 out of 10 rides anyway. Some days my first 10-20 Uber pings are 15+ minutes away.
> 
> 
> .


In my market it's 85% to see direction and duration of the ride, not 90%

But I agree; whether its 10 or 15 rejections per 100 pings, that's not a lot, but it is what it is. And as the op said, we dont get a lot of info upon which to base our decisions. Keeping my acceptance level up, however, gives me me more information. In fact I think I get enough information to decide whether to accept a ride offer or not. While I cant be as selective as I would like to be, I can be selective. For example, I reject short rides out of the airport and I reject rides to the beach during spring break. But I dont reject long pickups just because they might be short rides. I know whether they will be short rides or not and I know where the drop-off will be. and I know whether I will get paid for a portion of the pick up or not

Turns out I dont get more than 15% really bad ride offers, and its easy to keep my acceptance rate up


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## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

oldfart said:


> What do you do after you drop a passenger at the airport? Do you wait for an incoming flight, or do you drive back empty to you starting point?


I don't know about other places, but the Airport at Sea-Tac ( Seattle - Tacoma ) has strict rules on who can drive or pickup at the airport.

1. Have a commercially registered vehicle (i.e For-Hire or Livery).
2. Have the vehicle annually inspected by the State Police (that is the white sticker you see next to the rear license plate).
3. Have a commercial drivers license (Chauffeur endorsement)
4. Have commercial insurance (one million dollar liability minimum for SeaTac)
5. Pass a DHS background check in order to purchase a SeaTac Airport Permit (about $1000 annually).

So I drive and drop off at SeaTac, but not pick up. . ..


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## Christinebitg (Jun 29, 2018)

oldfart said:


> I hit something at 80mph that cut my tire. That ended my day early costing me an estimated $100 and I had to buy a pair of tires that cost $400.


Ouch, sorry to hear it!

Like you, I don't look at the one individual ride. Rather, that unplanned maintenance is part if the mileage deduction. I put money aside when I drive, based on mileage, knowing that I'm either going to spend it on maintenance, or on replacing it with my next vehicle.

That said, it IS reasonable to look at whether a trip is profitable, in part using the miles and their associated cost.

My situation is unusual. I have an extra car, for reasons that are completely unrelated to Uber. So I consider that mileage to already be a sunk cost for that vehicle. It's my intention to use up that car rather than selling it, since what I could get by selling isn't all that much.


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

oldfart said:


> In my market it's 85% to see direction and duration of the ride, not 90%
> 
> But I agree; whether its 10 or 15 rejections per 100 pings, that's not a lot, but it is what it is. And as the op said, we dont get a lot of info upon which to base our decisions. Keeping my acceptance level up, however, gives me me more information. In fact I think I get enough information to decide whether to accept a ride offer or not. While I cant be as selective as I would like to be, I can be selective. For example, I reject short rides out of the airport and I reject rides to the beach during spring break. But I dont reject long pickups just because they might be short rides. I know whether they will be short rides or not and I know where the drop-off will be. and I know whether I will get paid for a portion of the pick up or not
> 
> Turns out I dont get more than 15% really bad ride offers, and its easy to keep my acceptance rate up


I hate to break the news to you but 85% is 9 out of 10 because 8 out of 10 isn't enough.



oldfart said:


> I take issue with your assumption that all rides fall into two categories; profitable and not profitable. I just dont think you can look at this rideshare thing one ride at a time.
> 
> Recently I dropped a passenger at their hotel ($40 ride) and headed back to the airport. I hit something at 80mph that cut my tire. That ended my day early costing me an estimated $100 and I had to buy a pair of tires that cost $400. If I looked at rideshare. one ride at a time, I lost $460 on that one ride. But I dont do that. .Rather, I add all my expenses for the year. and divide by the total miles I drive to determine my cost per mile. The point is, I averages my expenses by the mile and I do the same with income
> 
> Dont get me wrong, I do everything I can to limit dead miles. . ie I dont drive around aimlessly hoping for a ping. and I position my self either at the airport or at resort hotels expecting $30-$40 rides. But the fact is; a long pickup for a short ride. contributes to a positive cash flow too.. and who knows? that $3 ride from a vacation home to the beach, may be next weeks $80 cash ride to the airport. and become a regular airport cash customer


Kinda weird. Using a flawed analogy to justify losing money on rides so a billion dollar corporation can exploit you.


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## Jon Stoppable (Dec 11, 2019)

Rideshare Dude said:


> Kinda weird. Using a flawed analogy to justify losing money on rides so a billion dollar corporation can exploit you.


Bear points out that while that may be flawed, it's not an analogy. An anecdote, perhaps.

Bear doesn't mind short rides because they pay more per mile, especially when there are streaks going (which are frequent). Also, humans smell bad so bear wants them out of the van as quickly as possible.

Bear does not like long pickups, so bear does not accept them. Bear does not call pax to screen rides, because pax are usually scared by bear's growling. But since bear has already filtered rides to short pickups only, bear does not have to worry about low profitability. Bear! Bear! Bear!


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Jon Stoppable said:


> Bear points out that while that may be flawed, it's not an analogy. An anecdote, perhaps.
> 
> Bear doesn't mind short rides because they pay more per mile, especially when there are streaks going (which are frequent). Also, humans smell bad so bear wants them out of the van as quickly as possible.
> 
> Bear does not like long pickups, so bear does not accept them. Bear does not call pax to screen rides, because pax are usually scared by bear's growling. But since bear has already filtered rides to short pickups only, bear does not have to worry about low profitability. Bear! Bear! Bear!


Bear should simply eat passengers to make all rides short, streaks go faster that way and it reduces the odor.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> I hate to break the news to you but 85% is 9 out of 10 because 8 out of 10 isn't enough.
> 
> 
> Kinda weird. Using a flawed analogy to justify losing money on rides so a billion dollar corporation can exploit you.


If I only did 10 rides in a year, you would be right, I'd only get to decline one ride offer that year; but I do more than that. As I said in my post 15 per 100. Not 10 per 100

I know a lot of drivers here attribute another drivers willingness to take all rides to poor math skills. I assure you I know how to add and subtract (I learned before calculators were a thing) and the math tells me all my rides make me at least a little money

it seems to me that i you are making decisions based on assumptions rather than data (perhaps you should learn a little math)

i didn't use an analogy to justify anything. . I used a real world example to show the absurdity of making decisions based on one data point. And my point is; I calculate my expenses on a per mile basis over many many rides. So it only makes sense to calculate earnings based on many rides, not just one at a time

that isn't to say that I take every ride offered, I don't. But because I get the direction and duration of the rides offered to me I'm able to be very selective. Without that info I feel like I'm driving blindfolded


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

oldfart said:


> If I only did 10 rides in a year, you would be right, I'd only get to decline one ride offer that year; but I do more than that. As I said in my post 15 per 100. Not 10 per 100
> 
> I know a lot of drivers here attribute another drivers willingness to take all rides to poor math skills. I assure you I know how to add and subtract (I learned before calculators were a thing) and the math tells me all my rides make me at least a little money
> 
> ...


You accuse me of making assumptions and then you..... make assumptions!

calculating your expenses over many rides is exactly what Uber wants you to do. They don't want you to know that you're losing right money on rides so that they can make money. You can calculate your expenses over many miles, such as yearly and still understand that some rides our money losers and best left alone. The two are not mutually exclusive. Simple math.

you cannot be "very selective" when you're required to take 85% of the rides they offer.

You are exactly the kind of writer that Uber likes because they can make more money out of you. Accept almost every offer and follow the other lemmings.


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## OCJarvis (Sep 4, 2017)

Just reading through this, so pardon me of I'm a little bit late to the party. You know you're able to change your DF mid trip on Uber right?

Being an LA/OC driver, I'm not sure if that strategy works at our airports for regular x or xl drivers, which I'm not. Very rare to catch a rematch on black, but I'm actually curious enough to give it a shot


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

OCJarvis said:


> Just reading through this, so pardon me of I'm a little bit late to the party. You know you're able to change your DF mid trip on Uber right?
> 
> Being an LA/OC driver, I'm not sure if that strategy works at our airports for regular x or xl drivers, which I'm not. Very rare to catch a rematch on black, but I'm actually curious enough to give it a shot


Not sure what your point is but I do know that the DF has been useless here since Covid started. If they need to unload a ride they don't care if it's going 10 or 20 minutes in the opposite direction.


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## OCJarvis (Sep 4, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> Not sure what your point is but I do know that the DF has been useless here since Covid started. If they need to unload a ride they don't care if it's going 10 or 20 minutes in the opposite direction.


Agreed, DF is useless. But if it were to accept a ride from the airport on a rematch with an active working DF, it would take me from LAX, the place that I do not want to be, back towards Orange County theoretically. I have no interest in taking a rematch from LAX that's going into West Hollywood


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

OCJarvis said:


> Agreed, DF is useless. But if it were to accept a ride from the airport on a rematch with an active working DF, it would take me from LAX, the place that I do not want to be, back towards Orange County theoretically. I have no interest in taking a rematch from LAX that's going into West Hollywood


We don't have rematch and we cannot use DF on airport property or in the airport Q.


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## OCJarvis (Sep 4, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> We don't have rematch and we cannot use DF on airport property or in the airport Q.


Neither do we. That's why this thread caught my interest because of what @Lissetti said


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

OCJarvis said:


> Neither do we. That's why this thread caught my interest because of what @Lissetti said


Uber tries and tests a lot of stuff in Seattle that doesn't go national. Some of it good, some bad. I never sat in queue, and we aren't allowed to sit on airport property any longer than it takes to pick up and drop off pax. Police and airport employees are outside enforcing that at all times. Rematches often come in after the driver has dropped off the pax and is driving down the road away from the airport. Everyone drives real slow hoping to get that rematch before they miss the turn into the parking garage to pick up pax.

If we get the rematch after that, we have to leave airport property and go a mile down the road to reenter the airport. I believe Uber still keeps you available for a rematch up to 3 miles from our airport. Our Ant Hill has been 2 miles down the road from the airport for years.

I've heard Seattle drivers say they've stayed in queue on short rides or was available for rematch as far away as Tukwila, a town neighbouring SeaTac, the town the airport is in. I know many times I got a rematch just as I was about to get gas or hit the freeway to leave the area. I don't know if post Covid, DF is still an option in Seattle.


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

OCJarvis said:


> Agreed, DF is useless. But if it were to accept a ride from the airport on a rematch with an active working DF, it would take me from LAX, the place that I do not want to be, back towards Orange County theoretically. I have no interest in taking a rematch from LAX that's going into West Hollywood


We don't have rematch and we cannot use DF on airport property or in the airport Q.


Lissetti said:


> Uber tries and tests a lot of stuff in Seattle that doesn't go national. Some of it good, some bad. I never sat in queue, and we aren't allowed to sit on airport property any longer than it takes to pick up and drop off pax. Police and airport employees are outside enforcing that at all times. Rematches often come in after the driver has dropped off the pax and is driving down the road away from the airport. Everyone drives real slow hoping to get that rematch before they miss the turn into the parking garage to pick up pax.
> 
> If we get the rematch after that, we have to leave airport property and go a mile down the road to reenter the airport. I believe Uber still keeps you available for a rematch up to 3 miles from our airport. Our Ant Hill has been 2 miles down the road from the airport for years.
> 
> I've heard Seattle drivers say they've stayed in queue on short rides or was available for rematch as far away as Tukwila, a town neighbouring SeaTac, the town the airport is in. I know many times I got a rematch just as I was about to get gas or hit the freeway to leave the area. I don't know if post Covid, DF is still an option in Seattle.


The ant hill in Kansas City is eight or 10 minutes away from pick up depending on which terminal it is. Lyft has rematch there which actually screws over the people who are waiting in the queue.


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## Lissetti (Dec 20, 2016)

Rideshare Dude said:


> We don't have rematch and we cannot use DF on airport property or in the airport Q.
> 
> The ant hill in Kansas City is eight or 10 minutes away from pick up depending on which terminal it is. Lyft has rematch there which actually screws over the people who are waiting in the queue.


All of rematch screws over the drivers waiting in our queue. In Seattle, no driver can sit in queue unless their car gets 45 MPG or up. My Prius was eligible to sit in queue if I wanted. My Corolla is not eligible. Yet, when I dropped off a pax at the airport, I would get rematch to go pick up a pax, ahead of a hundred or so drivers who are eligible to sit in queue and have been doing so for hours. This is also so for Lyft.


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## Subaru_X (Apr 27, 2015)

Lissetti said:


> All of rematch screws over the drivers waiting in our queue. In Seattle, no driver can sit in queue unless their car gets 45 MPG or up. My Prius was eligible to sit in queue if I wanted. My Corolla is not eligible. Yet, when I dropped off a pax at the airport, I would get rematch to go pick up a pax, ahead of a hundred or so drivers who are eligible to sit in queue and have been doing so for hours. This is also so for Lyft.


This is true in Melbourne. Rematch kills the drivers sitting in the queue. That's why it's important in Melbourne to maintain a high CR and AR and do enough trips to have "platinum" pro status.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> You accuse me of making assumptions and then you..... make assumptions!
> 
> calculating your expenses over many rides is exactly what Uber wants you to do. They don't want you to know that you're losing right money on rides so that they can make money. You can calculate your expenses over many miles, such as yearly and still understand that some rides our money losers and best left alone. The two are not mutually exclusive. Simple math.
> 
> ...


I can't know which rides might be more or less profitable than others without some information. A long pick up may end up being an even longer ride or take me into an area with more business. I want that information because with it I can do a better job selecting the rides I want to reject, put another way, I am more selective than you, when it comes to rejecting rides. . (You are selective with what you accept)


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## metal_orion (May 14, 2015)

I don't really care about acceptance rate. Anybody with a 4.80 and lower can't get in my car. I've already tested it out and it's always been a headache. I always text asking what's the address they're going? and if they answer quick and it is actually profitable and works in my favor I take them, otherwise I don't waste my time or theirs and I cancel.


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

oldfart said:


> I can't know which rides might be more or less profitable than others without some information. A long pick up may end up being an even longer ride or take me into an area with more business. I want that information because with it I can do a better job selecting the rides I want to reject, put another way, I am more selective than you, when it comes to rejecting rides. . (You are selective with what you accept)


All the information you need is the pax destination. Ask the pax before you stay driving to pick them up. Problem solved.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> All the information you need is the pax destination. Ask the pax before you stay driving to pick them up. Problem solved.


I don't have a problem as long as I keep my acceptance rate greater than or equal to 85%

remember that saying a lot of ride offers are not profitable is, in my opinion; nonsense. And I've done the math to demonstrate that to myself. And that's all that counts


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

oldfart said:


> I don't have a problem as long as I keep my acceptance rate greater than or equal to 85%
> 
> remember that saying a lot of ride offers are not profitable is, in my opinion; nonsense. And I've done the math to demonstrate that to myself. And that's all that counts


The example in my original post is unprofitable. Period. No amount of creative math can change that. So whatever you demonstrated to yourself is nonsense.


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## Delsan19 (Jun 12, 2018)

Another Uber Driver said:


> Lyft, as a rule, does show the address. At times, though, all that you get is something like "Modern Nails". As I do not get my nails done anywhere, and girlfriend's nail parlour does not have that name, I do not know where that is. Uber actually used to show
> the pick-up address.
> 
> Uber has been known to alter the orientation of the map and compress it to deceive you into accepting a ping that you normally would decline. I do not know if it has analysed overall accept/decline patterns or does it for individual drivers. It would not be difficult to program a computer do it either way. This way, if it determines that Driver A almost never accepts pings that are behind him, it can take his direction of travel (or last known direction, if he is sitting) and re-orient the map to make it look like the ping is ahead of him. If it "sees" that a driver never accepts pings that are X far from him in distance or time, it can give a false time figure or compress the map to make a ping look closer than it is. I have seen this personally more than a few times. Every once in while, it has burned me. As a rule, this is either a cancel or no-cover, depending on my cancellation rate.
> ...


What's a "no cover". Hopefully that's not a dumb question, but I've not heard the expression before. Genuinely interested.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Delsan19 said:


> What's a "no cover".


I do not cover the ping. I do not go to the pick-up address. I simply run jobs on the other application until the customer cancels.

You do this deliberately to get the customer to cancel. That way, it does not count against you. Usually, you do not get a cancellation fee for it, but, for my purposes, I am more interested in not cancelling myself after I have accepted, as neither Uber nor Lyft likes it when you do that. You can get away with a few of them, but, I try to keep my cancellation rate under ten per-cent.

I also will do this when Lyft pulls the switcheroo. As I get no choice on accepting or declining when Lyft pulls the switcheroo, my status as an independent contractor is being violated. I have had some awful switcheroos from Lyft. Lyft has taken me off a 1,8 Prime time from which I was two blocks and substituted a base rate Line ten minutes from me. I do not accept Line/Shared, even if I am looking at it. (Line/Shared has been suspended due to COVID-19)


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> The example in my original post is unprofitable. Period. No amount of creative math can change that. So whatever you demonstrated to yourself is nonsense.


in your sample you dont mention how many miles it is that that 20 min pickup. In my market we are paid by the mile not by the hour. So I have to make some assumptions. Let's assume it's 10 miles at 30 mph to pickup and a one mile minimum fair ride (as bear points out, short (min fare rides pay more per mile than long rides.

I spend about 10 cents a mile for gas and 5 cents for repairs and maintenance. So do the math

income $2.75
Expenses $1,65

positive cash flow $1.10


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

You have no depreciation, insurance or taxes? I operate a relatively fuel-efficient vehicle in the area with low gasoline cost in my operating expenses are still $.25 a mile.

you place no value on the Lost earning potential for that 20 minute she spent driving to pick up? You are exactly the kind of driver Uber loves because you don’t realize you’re losing money on the short rides.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> You have no depreciation, insurance or taxes? I operate a relatively fuel-efficient vehicle in the area with low gasoline cost in my operating expenses are still $.25 a mile.
> 
> you place no value on the Lost earning potential for that 20 minute she spent driving to pick up? You are exactly the kind of driver Uber loves because you don't realize you're losing money on the short rides.


I think we are talking about two different things. You are talking about "profits" I am talking about positive or negative cash flow

I have no income taxes. I use the quite generous standard tax deduction allowed by the the IRS which, in concert with my other deductions reduces my tax obligation to zero.

The car has been 100% depreciated so no more "actual" depreciation, Its important to note that the standard mileage deduction actually increases "profit" in that it reduces taxes

I do have liability insurance, but its not a "by the mile thing" I pay an annual premium for a commercial liability policy, And the premium is the same, no matter how many miles I drive, So its difficult to apply the premium on a per mile basis, but I agree with you that I should have considered insurance in my list of expenses $3000/75000 miles = 4 cents a mile

And no I dont consider lost earning potential for the 20 minutes lost to the pickup, any more than I consider the hours I sleep each day as lost opportunity.

so lets recalculate, this time including insurance

income $2.75 
expenses $0.19 / mile 
10 miles to pick up
1 mile ride

thats $2.75 - $2.09 = $0.66 = positive cash flow

Dont get me wrong. I dont generally take the long pick up to short rides either, The point is that I know which ride offers are long pickups to short rides and which are long pick ups to long rides and which rides will take me in a direction I want to go; before I accept the pings because I keep my acceptance over 85% You don't. have the information needed to make an intelligent decision. I suspect some of the rides you reject would have made you plenty of money


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

oldfart said:


> I think we are talking about two different things. You are talking about "profits" I am talking about positive or negative cash flow
> 
> I have no income taxes. I use the quite generous standard tax deduction allowed by the the IRS which, in concert with my other deductions reduces my tax obligation to zero.
> 
> ...


Actually I *DO* have the information needed to make an intelligent decision. The pax provides that when I contact them and ask their destination. So.... your suspicion is incorrect.

in this market with my location I frequently start the day with at least 6 pings of 15-25 minutes away. I would have to accept those BS money losers every day to maintain 85% acceptance rate.

Every vehicle, including yours, regardless of age or mileage has value and that value decreases with every mile you drive.

Rideshare is tax neutral for me but it still take incurred expenses to offset income and reach that point.

When you are driving to a pickup you are "working" (for free) unlike when you are at home sleeping.

finally and probably most importantly, your numbers indicate spending at least 25 minutes to generate 66 cents of positive cash flow. And you call that profitable. That's not gonna pay any bills!


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> Actually I *DO* have the information needed to make an intelligent decision. The pax provides that when I contact them and ask their destination. So.... your suspicion is incorrect.
> 
> in this market with my location I frequently start the day with at least 6 pings of 15-25 minutes away. I would have to accept those BS money losers every day to maintain 85% acceptance rate.
> 
> ...


I know two guys that were de activated for cancelling after a phone call so I dont do it anymore...and I dont have to, because I get everything I need with the offer as long as my acceptance rate is where I want it

do you call each of those 6 pings???.. the 25 min pick up you turn down is, to my way of thinking, a good ride, at least in my market . We are paid for the pick up after 10 min

I know what depreciation Is and dont see depreciation as anything important, except at tax time. And by the way if you use actual expenses, you cant depreciate to less than 0. The important thing is that you have the cash or credit to buy another car when the one you have craps out. As your car loses a dollar in value, you should have a dollar in your repair and replacement fund. 
And if you buy your "new" car with borrowed money who cares as long as you pay it off before it craps out

After 3 years of driving, my car is at 269000 miles and I have the money to replace it. So, no... I dont have to think about the value of my car. . And if it has value now, its only because I just put new tires on it

Those first 6 pings you turn down at the start of the day waste time too, and that time is no different than the time I spend sleeping

and to your most important point. That was your example, not mine (an extreme example, by the way), . I was taking issue with your statement that a ride like that wasnt profitable. But it is; to the tune of 66 cents And thats all I'm saying. Im not saying all my rides are 66 cent rides or that I could pay my bills with 66 cent rides. By the way, the reason I keep my acceptance rate up is so I can decline rides like that


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

oldfart said:


> I know two guys that were de activated for cancelling after a phone call so I dont do it anymore...and I dont have to, because I get everything I need with the offer as long as my acceptance rate is where I want it
> 
> do you call each of those 6 pings???.. the 25 min pick up you turn down is, to my way of thinking, a good ride, at least in my market . We are paid for the pick up after 10 min
> 
> ...


Your final statement makes zero sense. You cannot Decline those six 20 minute pick ups AND keep your acceptance rate up. You have to except almost everything. You just don't get that Uber has you right where they want you and you think it's a benefit to see some trip details in advance. Sure, here are some trip details but by the way you have to except the trip anyway. What's the point?

and no, those six pick ups are not profitable I do not even accept the pings. I can tell by the area of town they are in and the way the city is laid out they are going to be a ride that pays less than five dollars with no tip and excess driving time due to traffic and stoplights.


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

Rideshare Dude said:


> you think it's a benefit to see some trip details in advance. Sure, here are some trip details but by the way you have to except the trip anyway. What's the point?


This is worth noting and had occurred to me, which is why I never was too worried about achieving Gold, Platinum or whatever it is. It would allow me to decline only the absolute worst jobs. Still I would have to run several garbage jobs daily.


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## Delsan19 (Jun 12, 2018)

Another Uber Driver said:


> I do not cover the ping. I do not go to the pick-up address. I simply run jobs on the other application until the customer cancels.
> 
> You do this deliberately to get the customer to cancel. That way, it does not count against you. Usually, you do not get a cancellation fee for it, but, for my purposes, I am more interested in not cancelling myself after I have accepted, as neither Uber nor Lyft likes it when you do that. You can get away with a few of them, but, I try to keep my cancellation rate under ten per-cent.
> 
> I also will do this when Lyft pulls the switcheroo. As I get no choice on accepting or declining when Lyft pulls the switcheroo, my status as an independent contractor is being violated. I have had some awful switcheroos from Lyft. Lyft has taken me off a 1,8 Prime time from which I was two blocks and substituted a base rate Line ten minutes from me. I do not accept Line/Shared, even if I am looking at it. (Line/Shared has been suspended due to COVID-19)


Okay. Thanks. I've had passengers take forever to cancel, then I've tried that, But will start doing this again because of the same thing you're talking about. The switcheroo.


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## oldfart (Dec 22, 2017)

Rideshare Dude said:


> Your final statement makes zero sense. You cannot Decline those six 20 minute pick ups AND keep your acceptance rate up. You have to except almost everything. You just don't get that Uber has you right where they want you and you think it's a benefit to see some trip details in advance. Sure, here are some trip details but by the way you have to except the trip anyway. What's the point?
> 
> and no, those six pick ups are not profitable I do not even accept the pings. I can tell by the area of town they are in and the way the city is laid out they are going to be a ride that pays less than five dollars with no tip and excess driving time due to traffic and stoplights.


i don't think I e ever seen 6 pickups in any one day that were both 20 min plus pick ups and minimum pay rides. I think if I knew that an area of town generated 6 back to back rides, I think I would start my day in that neighborhood

First you said you know the direction and time of an offered ride by calling the passenger. Now you say you know from the area of town just how profitable a ride might be. Unfortunately my crystal ball doesnt work as well as your's. I prefer to work with as much info as I can get


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## Rideshare Dude (Aug 27, 2020)

oldfart said:


> i don't think I e ever seen 6 pickups in any one day that were both 20 min plus pick ups and minimum pay rides. I think if I knew that an area of town generated 6 back to back rides, I think I would start my day in that neighborhood
> 
> First you said you know the direction and time of an offered ride by calling the passenger. Now you say you know from the area of town just how profitable a ride might be. Unfortunately my crystal ball doesnt work as well as your's. I prefer to work with as much info as I can get


It's pretty simple here. Those areas are full of low income multi unit housing near the downtown and midtown areas most of them work in.

why would I start my dat by driving 20 minutes unpaid to be in the middle of a bunch of crappy rides?

I have done 17,000 rides in 4 years and know my market very well.


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