# When did Uber start putting ALL miles on tax doc?



## Mainah (Jun 22, 2018)

I’m getting audited for 2017. They are questioning the amount of miles I put on. Uber only gave me about a 3rd of what I actually drove. I think it was just in-trip miles they put on the form.

I see these days they put whatever miles I drove while the app was on. Even if no rides were given.

Did they do this in 2017?


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Mainah said:


> I'm getting audited for 2017. They are questioning the amount of miles I put on. Uber only gave me about a 3rd of what I actually drove. I think it was just in-trip miles they put on the form.
> 
> I see these days they put whatever miles I drove while the app was on. Even if no rides were given.
> 
> Did they do this in 2017?


I searched "Uber on app miles" and found a post that said it started with the 2018 tax year. I hope you have a contemporaneous written log to support the mileage you claimed. Many drivers say dead miles are double or even triple trip miles, but you need to be able to substantiate the claim for them.
There are lots of members here who think because they aren't making much money they won't get audited. I guess you may be proving them wrong. Perhaps if the title mentioned "tax audit" it would get their attention. Good luck to you.


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## Mainah (Jun 22, 2018)

Older Chauffeur said:


> I searched "Uber on app miles" and found a post that said it started with the 2018 tax year


Was this a forum post or is there an actual piece form Uber stating this?

I called support and you can guess how that went. Had to repeat the question 5 times cause they kept giving me an answer to a totally different question.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Mainah said:


> I'm getting audited for 2017. They are questioning the amount of miles I put on. Uber only gave me about a 3rd of what I actually drove. I think it was just in-trip miles they put on the form.
> 
> I see these days they put whatever miles I drove while the app was on. Even if no rides were given.
> 
> Did they do this in 2017?


Are they questioning other things or just the miles? Is this a correspondence audit or do you have to meet with the IRS?


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Here are a couple of things I found.

https://help.uber.com/partners/arti...e?nodeId=8cfb60dd-7558-4367-bb29-dd9a5acbf24f
From Jan 19, 2019:


BruiserB said:


> My info posted today in my account. One notable change this year is that Uber did show total number of miles driven with app on. Previous years they just showed miles driven with passengers in the car. Since I only drive Uber, this actually matched pretty closely the miles I tracked with TripLog. I suppose if one drove both Uber and Lyft and if Lyft similarly tracks miles, then there could be double counted miles.
> 
> I also don't think the total miles is technically sufficient for the IRS in case of an audit. You are supposed to have date, odometer readings, locations, etc documented. My TripLog app does do this. I was just surprised at the change and that the total Uber showed was within 2% of what I tracked.


Me again:
It looks to me like it started with 2018. If you don't have a mileage log for 2017, you may be able to negotiate a percentage of the on app pax miles with the IRS agent. Have they actually called you in, or is it just a letter inquiry now?
There's a member who has helped others with tax information. He is a tax professional, so you might try sending him a personal message to see if he can advise you how to handle it. @UberTaxPro
Edit: Looks like he posted while I was typing!  :biggrin:


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## Mainah (Jun 22, 2018)

UberTaxPro said:


> Are they questioning other things or just the miles? Is this a correspondence audit or do you have to meet with the IRS?


Just miles. Uber said I drove 12,400 miles but I had app on when I drove to and from work nearly 5 days a week. To and from work was 47 miles each day. Also, I was in a very dry market so dead miles home and miles to pickups that were 5-10 miles away added up.

So I claimed 41,000 miles.

The only reason I got audited was cause ik
On their radar from a unrelated mishap a few years ago about another 1099 issue. So I'm a different case. Anyone else wouldn't have gotten this audit


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Mainah said:


> Just miles. Uber said I drove 12,400 miles but I had app on when I drove to and from work nearly 5 days a week. To and from work was 47 miles each day. Also, I was in a very dry market so dead miles home and miles to pickups that were 5-10 miles away added up.
> 
> So I claimed 41,000 miles.
> 
> ...


How much ride-share income did you make on the 41,000 miles claimed?


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## Wrb06wrx (Sep 20, 2017)

Older Chauffeur said:


> I searched "Uber on app miles" and found a post that said it started with the 2018 tax year. I hope you have a contemporaneous written log to support the mileage you claimed. Many drivers say dead miles are double or even triple trip miles, but you need to be able to substantiate the claim for them.
> There are lots of members here who think because they aren't making much money they won't get audited. I guess you may be proving them wrong. Perhaps if the title mentioned "tax audit" it would get their attention. Good luck to you.


So when I started driving uber/lyft i when to the local dollar tree and bought a small notebook and a package of pens it cost me like 2.25....

From there anytime I drove for uber/lyft I would open said notebook and write the date and mileage out and mileage in as when I turn the app on other than the gas station and 7-11 or gast food i am only driving for uber/lyft purposes therefore all incurred mileage is technically for business. That 2.25 was probably the cheapest insurance I ever bought.

I am not knocking you or anyone else but if you dont treat this like a real business uncle sam can and will make you grab your ankles it sounds stupid I know but when you are in business you need to have a paper trail for everything otherwise you are opening yourself up for a lot of headaches


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## Mainah (Jun 22, 2018)

UberTaxPro said:


> How much ride-share income did you make on the 41,000 miles claimed?


Just over $8k. Honestly not sure if they will agree with any of it.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

So you deducted $22K (.535*41,000miles) on 8K of income? That's a 14K loss and the reason you got audited IMO.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Mainah said:


> Just over $8k. Honestly not sure if they will agree with any of it.


I think I can see why......


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## RioRoja (Mar 13, 2017)

Mainah said:


> Just over $8k. Honestly not sure if they will agree with any of it.





UberTaxPro said:


> So you deducted $22K (.535*41,000miles) on 8K of income? That's a 14K loss and the reason you got audited IMO.


For sure. Even if the OP painstakingly fabricated a detailed mileage log to line up with his mileage deduction for the year, a 30% ratio (22,400/41,000) of paid miles to deductible miles is a noticeable deviation from the norm which I would bet is in the neighborhood of 50%. Also, I don't imagine the "I always have my Uber app on during my commute" line is going to fly with the IRS as an excuse to deduct 100% of his commuter miles to and from his day job - especially since the OP stated that he rarely gets any rides during his commute.


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## Working stiff 1976 (Nov 19, 2018)

im going to be in the same boat mileage wise......sometimes i drive 12 miles to do a 2 mile trip.....my empty miles are always way more than my loaded miles. Looks like an audit is in my future


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Older Chauffeur said:


> I searched "Uber on app miles" and found a post that said it started with the 2018 tax year. I hope you have a contemporaneous written log to support the mileage you claimed. Many drivers say dead miles are double or even triple trip miles, but you need to be able to substantiate the claim for them.
> There are lots of members here who think because they aren't making much money they won't get audited. I guess you may be proving them wrong. Perhaps if the title mentioned "tax audit" it would get their attention. Good luck to you.


The miles uber gave me
pretty much added up to
the miles on my cars odometer.
Mine said 50000 miles
and that's what I used
Maybe the discrepancy 
is what triggered the audit
Good luck man


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## Wrb06wrx (Sep 20, 2017)

I've said this a few times dollar tree has the little spiral notebooks for $1.00 grab a pack or 2 of the pens there too when you turn the key to start your car take a second and record your miles out and when you come home take another second and record your miles in so for under $5.00 you have at least some kind of documentation.

At the end of the day it may be better to take a picture when you leave and also when you return.... time and date stamped by your device.

The other thing I dont know if it's possible but if you try you might be able to petition uber for your records, as far as you know they might not admit it they are most likely recording your whereabouts while you are online


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## ValleyAntMan (Mar 14, 2019)

Mainah said:


> I'm getting audited for 2017. They are questioning the amount of miles I put on. Uber only gave me about a 3rd of what I actually drove. I think it was just in-trip miles they put on the form.
> 
> I see these days they put whatever miles I drove while the app was on. Even if no rides were given.
> 
> Did they do this in 2017?


Up through 2016, Uber reported the on-trip miles on your annual tax docs. Beginning in 2017, the total online miles were reported. Neither number should be used for your income tax return, but you should still be able to access the tax documents in your online back office (with a PC, not your phone!). You can claim mileage from the start of your work shift until it ends. You can probably include the dead miles to and from your market but the total online miles already includes the miles to your pickups. Most drivers will probably agree that your total miles should be close to double your gross revenues so, if your income was just just over $8K (really? for 5 days a week?), your miles would normally be no more than about 16,000. Maybe 20k with the extra long drive to market. You would still have no taxes due, so just suggest a lower number and accept responsibility.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

@ValleyAntMan, do you have a 2017 Tax Summary showing online miles? Uber seems to have made a special effort to announce the change for the 2018 tax year.
https://help.uber.com/partners/search?q=2018 tax summary"What is the Tax Summary used for?
January 31, 2019. This year's Tax Summary also includes a record of all your online miles."
and,
https://help.uber.com/partners/arti...r?nodeId=f7266968-bc67-4217-9e0a-c216d6b61de3"This year's Tax Summary also includes a record of all your online miles for the year, which may be deductible. Total online miles includes all the miles you drove waiting for a trip, en-route to a rider, and on a trip."


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## ValleyAntMan (Mar 14, 2019)

Older Chauffeur said:


> @ValleyAntMan, do you have a 2017 Tax Summary showing online miles? Uber seems to have made a special effort to announce the change for the 2018 tax year.
> https://help.uber.com/partners/search?q=2018 tax summary"What is the Tax Summary used for?
> January 31, 2019. This year's Tax Summary also includes a record of all your online miles."
> and,
> https://help.uber.com/partners/arti...r?nodeId=f7266968-bc67-4217-9e0a-c216d6b61de3"This year's Tax Summary also includes a record of all your online miles for the year, which may be deductible. Total online miles includes all the miles you drove waiting for a trip, en-route to a rider, and on a trip."


Yes, I have the document labelled "Tax Summary for 2017" and the line labelled "Driving Totals" shows that I did 3,568 COMPLETED TRIPS and "59007.6 Online Miles."


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

ValleyAntMan said:


> Yes, I have the document labelled "Tax Summary for 2017" and the line labelled "Driving Totals" shows that I did 3,568 COMPLETED TRIPS and "59007.6 Online Miles."


i guess my question should have also asked if the total included your dead miles, and if their numbers matched your records. That's the change I believe they made for the 2018 tax year where they stated "includes *all* your online miles."


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## ValleyAntMan (Mar 14, 2019)

Older Chauffeur said:


> i guess my question should have also asked if the total included your dead miles, and if their numbers matched your records. That's the change I believe they made for the 2018 tax year where they stated "includes *all* your online miles."


The only change that has taken place is the change from Uber reporting our "on-trip miles" (miles driven with a rider in the car) to the "online miles" (all miles driven with the app turned on). That change took place in 2017. I do not have any personal tracking of these numbers. I only track my total miles when working (from the start of my work shift until the end), which is the number I use on my tax return.

I just compared my Tax Summary for 2018 document and the layout, labels, and info is all the same except for the actual information (3512 Completed Trips and 54076.28 Online Miles).


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## Wildgoose (Feb 11, 2019)

Mainah said:


> Just miles. Uber said I drove 12,400 miles but I had app on when I drove to and from work nearly 5 days a week. To and from work was 47 miles each day. Also, I was in a very dry market so dead miles home and miles to pickups that were 5-10 miles away added up.
> 
> So I claimed 41,000 miles.
> 
> ...


Since IRS is dealing with millions of drivers, they have tons of record that could be compared with your claim. ( They do have estimated miles driven based on income.) That's why they audit you to prove your claim.
Since you have different work nature with average drivers, you may need to make a recorded list that will back your claim. 
For example, ... Date ..... Starts Odometer reading .... .Ends Odometer reading ... Total miles driven.... 
use an MS Office Excel sheet and fill them up for the whole year. .. Maximum 365 days. That list will help you to prove your claim.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

Since I keep a daily trip log including all stops I have no concerns with an IRS mileage Audit. Many people say its a waste of time, but once you start doing it and get a routine it is easy.

As per IRS guidelines I record date. starting mileage and address, mileage and address for each stop, a brief description of the address description, and the activity for each leg or stop.

I keep a Steno pad and pen in my car and use them because I find the Steno Pad the easiest to use for me. As I have down time sitting in my car I use my tablet to transfer information into a spread sheet. Otherwise at the end of the day I do it from my home office.


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## Bbonez (Aug 10, 2018)

When I start actively looking for rides I do two things open the Stride app and start a drive and log the odometer in a pocket pal that I get for free from my barber shop. When I stop looking for rides I end the ride on the app and log my ending miles in the pocket pal. @UberTaxPro will this survive an audit? I know some have said only a detail log broken down by trip is acceptable. This is the pocket pal I have, I like it because the front half has a pad of paper I use to take notes for lost item addresses and phone numbers.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

UberTaxPro said:


> How much ride-share income did you make on the 41,000 miles claimed?


$27.53


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## islanddriver (Apr 6, 2018)

Uber and Lyft have been around long enough for the IRS to get avg income versus mileage. And expenses. They have it for all other industry. So if you can't prove it be careful.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

ValleyAntMan said:


> Up through 2016, Uber reported the on-trip miles on your annual tax docs. Beginning in 2017, the total online miles were reported. Neither number should be used for your income tax return, but you should still be able to access the tax documents in your online back office (with a PC, not your phone!). You can claim mileage from the start of your work shift until it ends. You can probably include the dead miles to and from your market but the total online miles already includes the miles to your pickups. Most drivers will probably agree that your total miles should be close to double your gross revenues so, if your income was just just over $8K (really? for 5 days a week?), your miles would normally be no more than about 16,000. Maybe 20k with the extra long drive to market. You would still have no taxes due, so just suggest a lower number and accept responsibility.


If you dont really know dont guess. Figures of miles are very important and very useable. The law does not require the toiling over a handwritten log if everything is recorded on your behalf. The reason for the law was because too many mileage innaccuracies were taking place around the country prior to 1986. All that they need is something to trust.

Uber online records are available for 100 days. You have to write to Accounting to get all of the pertinent records and specify it is for a tax audit.



islanddriver said:


> Uber and Lyft have been around long enough for the IRS to get avg income versus mileage. And expenses. They have it for all other industry. So if you can't prove it be careful.


It really is the infancy of IRS and Uber data.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

Bbonez said:


> When I start actively looking for rides I do two things open the Stride app and start a drive and log the odometer in a pocket pal that I get for free from my barber shop. When I stop looking for rides I end the ride on the app and log my ending miles in the pocket pal. @UberTaxPro will this survive an audit? I know some have said only a detail log broken down by trip is acceptable. This is the pocket pal I have, I like it because the front half has a pad of paper I use to take notes for lost item addresses and phone numbers.
> 
> View attachment 389072
> 
> View attachment 389073


I use a similar calendar and have done so for years. But to make the math a little easier, I record the mileage in reverse order - the ending reading above the starting mileage. 
Since I shut down my driving business at the end of 2018, I only record deductible mileage for medical-related trips. Old habits die hard!


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

Bbonez said:


> When I start actively looking for rides I do two things open the Stride app and start a drive and log the odometer in a pocket pal that I get for free from my barber shop. When I stop looking for rides I end the ride on the app and log my ending miles in the pocket pal. @UberTaxPro will this survive an audit? I know some have said only a detail log broken down by trip is acceptable. This is the pocket pal I have, I like it because the front half has a pad of paper I use to take notes for lost item addresses and phone numbers.
> 
> View attachment 389072
> 
> View attachment 389073


You asked this days ago. You have consistent total start and total stop numbers. It is better than nothing but the auditor would need just a little bit more...but he wont throw it out. He will probably trim a few miles off the bottom to count as going home. Not bad. So if you write the note "Quit time" next to the ending number it will be more clear. And actually write the time when you start and when you stop. If Stride matches the log, you only need one. So long as it is not recording each drive you take stop to stop ad nauseum. Then you dont need it at all. Download the resources Uber provides. Use that. If you want to keep the barber journal then that is a good confirmation but the auditor will believe Uber .



Older Chauffeur said:


> I use a similar calendar and have done so for years. But to make the math a little easier, I record the mileage in reverse order - the ending reading above the starting mileage.
> Since I shut down my driving business at the end of 2018, I only record deductible mileage for medical-related trips. Old habits die hard!


The IRS just wants consistency, so be it lol.


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## Nate5Star (Dec 18, 2019)

FLKeys said:


> Since I keep a daily trip log including all stops I have no concerns with an IRS mileage Audit. Many people say its a waste of time, but once you start doing it and get a routine it is easy.
> 
> As per IRS guidelines I record date. starting mileage and address, mileage and address for each stop, a brief description of the address description, and the activity for each leg or stop.
> 
> I keep a Steno pad and pen in my car and use them because I find the Steno Pad the easiest to use for me. As I have down time sitting in my car I use my tablet to transfer information into a spread sheet. Otherwise at the end of the day I do it from my home office.


I record all the same information, and write it all down while waiting for the pax at pick-up. They are rarely waiting on the curb. If they can jump right in the car, it only takes a second or two to write it down. Had a couple truck drivers as pax who gave me some quick tips. I also write down the pax's name at the top of each entry.

It's when I get home I turn number crazy. Spent years reconciling payments/bank accounts/billing systems for Verizon using excel spreadsheets that stretched out 40 to 50 pages, and was never more than .02 off. (You bet yer ass I found that two cents.) There is a page for every day that includes all the information for each trip that is provided in the details from the app, each trip is associated with the mileage, and any comments I make. Takes less than 30 minutes for me enter all the information. Then it's all linked to monthly total pages. There'a a total page for all the information, a page just for the payment information, total pages for mileage, a page comparing gas to mileage, earnings per mile, both active driven miles and total miles that includes the dead. I even recreated an excel version of Schedule C that has its own supporting pages that pulls the income from the daily pages, and on a separate page pulls the mileage driven then applies the standard deduction rate, and automatically updates the schedule c so I know my net income/loss. And dare I say there is a page to the side of the schedule c that applies the percentages needed for all the kinds of taxes.

I know it's overkill. But I can't help myself. I am a ruined man thanks to the phone company.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

Nate5Star said:


> I record all the same information, and write it all down while waiting for the pax at pick-up. They are rarely waiting on the curb. If they can jump right in the car, it only takes a second or two to write it down. Had a couple truck drivers as pax who gave me some quick tips. I also write down the pax's name at the top of each entry.
> 
> It's when I get home I turn number crazy. Spent years reconciling payments/bank accounts/billing systems for Verizon using excel spreadsheets that stretched out 40 to 50 pages, and was never more than .02 off. (You bet yer ass I found that two cents.) There is a page for every day that includes all the information for each trip that is provided in the details from the app, each trip is associated with the mileage, and any comments I make. Takes less than 30 minutes for me enter all the information. Then it's all linked to monthly total pages. There'a a total page for all the information, a page just for the payment information, total pages for mileage, a page comparing gas to mileage, earnings per mile, both active driven miles and total miles that includes the dead. I even recreated an excel version of Schedule C that has its own supporting pages that pulls the income from the daily pages, and on a separate page pulls the mileage driven then applies the standard deduction rate, and automatically updates the schedule c so I know my net income/loss. And dare I say there is a page to the side of the schedule c that applies the percentages needed for all the kinds of taxes.
> 
> I know it's overkill. But I can't help myself. I am a ruined man thanks to the phone company.


Sounds a lot like my spreadsheet. A wealth of financial information in it. Always know my earnings per mile, exact expenses, tax liability, taxable income, non taxable profit. Tip percentages, etc etc.

Keep track if the majority of it while stopped in the car, or at the end of the day 20-30 minutes as you said.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

Nate5Star said:


> I record all the same information, and write it all down while waiting for the pax at pick-up. They are rarely waiting on the curb. If they can jump right in the car, it only takes a second or two to write it down. Had a couple truck drivers as pax who gave me some quick tips. I also write down the pax's name at the top of each entry.
> 
> It's when I get home I turn number crazy. Spent years reconciling payments/bank accounts/billing systems for Verizon using excel spreadsheets that stretched out 40 to 50 pages, and was never more than .02 off. (You bet yer ass I found that two cents.) There is a page for every day that includes all the information for each trip that is provided in the details from the app, each trip is associated with the mileage, and any comments I make. Takes less than 30 minutes for me enter all the information. Then it's all linked to monthly total pages. There'a a total page for all the information, a page just for the payment information, total pages for mileage, a page comparing gas to mileage, earnings per mile, both active driven miles and total miles that includes the dead. I even recreated an excel version of Schedule C that has its own supporting pages that pulls the income from the daily pages, and on a separate page pulls the mileage driven then applies the standard deduction rate, and automatically updates the schedule c so I know my net income/loss. And dare I say there is a page to the side of the schedule c that applies the percentages needed for all the kinds of taxes.
> 
> I know it's overkill. But I can't help myself. I am a ruined man thanks to the phone company.


I owned a taxi company for 15 years. ALL drivers filled this tripsheet out by hand for every trip. It was required by the state (still is I believe). Wasn't difficult once you got used to it. AND they were often used by drivers to prove loss of income to insurance companies after accidents.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> I owned a taxi company for 15 years. ALL drivers filled this tripsheet out by hand for every trip. It was required by the state (still is I believe). Wasn't difficult once you got used to it. AND they were often used by drivers to prove loss of income to insurance companies after accidents.
> View attachment 392967


THAT is what I am referring to! Notice, you have the starting odo and the ending odo and its associated revenue from the trips. Taxis in NYC needed this sort of log to satisfy the legal record keeping for the Taxi and Limousine Commission. It was deemed evidentiary for riders or investigations to have a log of where and when a pax was picked up and where and when dropped off. As an expense tracking sheet it is built to include the expenses of that day. Even simpler is that you can break out a day mixed with breaks by using a sheet like a spreadsheet for each "shift".


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

ValleyAntMan said:


> Up through 2016, Uber reported the on-trip miles on your annual tax docs. Beginning in 2017, the total online miles were reported. Neither number should be used for your income tax return, but you should still be able to access the tax documents in your online back office (with a PC, not your phone!). You can claim mileage from the start of your work shift until it ends. You can probably include the dead miles to and from your market but the total online miles already includes the miles to your pickups. Most drivers will probably agree that your total miles should be close to double your gross revenues so, if your income was just just over $8K (really? for 5 days a week?), your miles would normally be no more than about 16,000. Maybe 20k with the extra long drive to market. You would still have no taxes due, so just suggest a lower number and accept responsibility.


My gross pocketed revenue with
uber was $66k last year and
uber told me I drove 52k miles.
That pretty much lined up w
my odometer on my car so.
I added on the miles that Lyft
said I drove 25k.
I told my accountant that
some of those miles were
probably overlapping.
I put 65k miles on my
uber car last year
I wouldn't be making up
miles to get a deductions..


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

Wildgoose said:


> Since IRS is dealing with millions of drivers, they have tons of record that could be compared with your claim. ( They do have estimated miles driven based on income.) That's why they audit you to prove your claim.
> Since you have different work nature with average drivers, you may need to make a recorded list that will back your claim.
> For example, ... Date ..... Starts Odometer reading .... .Ends Odometer reading ... Total miles driven....
> use an MS Office Excel sheet and fill them up for the whole year. .. Maximum 365 days. That list will help you to prove your claim.


There really is a long distance marathon being run between what you think of as a lot and what the IRS develops as stats that can have merit. For starters, it is mainly five years. Only two or three of them now since Uber began indicating the miles on app figure on pay statements. I think that feedback they received about the results of audits influenced them. One obstacle being faced is the refusal by many very ignorant, very low-confidence, very confused drivers omitting their full deductible miles. I'd wager any bet that some auditors who are also drivers corrected tax returns and gave out refunds in audits. I am more than certain that two things are happening: That the IRS is seeing great discrepancies between taxpayers and second that they are performing audits to research hthe condition of those tax returns. With the right auditor people are getting refunds and with weak resolve and wrong auditor they are getting assements.


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## JaredJ (Aug 7, 2015)

I use the Stride app for mileage tracking. It's been reliable for me. I'll run a trip counter on my indash for verification.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

JaredJ said:


> I use the Stride app for mileage tracking. It's been reliable for me. I'll run a trip counter on my indash for verification.


The Stride App was downloaded by me, and so was Everlance. Everlance was very efficient. Every time my car was turned off it recorded a trip. I was doing delivery which entailed those stops and starts. Before I started with Uber I realized that those trips were not valuable in terms of the number of business miles. Because all the miles spent trying to get a ping counted. With Uber maybe it does not record each trip, but if it did, you would have the trip start and finish, a map, the number of miles, and the prompt to categorize the trip. So, how many miles does it record in one segment? How long is a segment? See, every time trips are mentioned, it becomes a hot mess. What I know is that the trips are reference but not the substance of the write-off. And nobody should be lost in this trip muck and mire. Uber lists the trips. Done for you. Uber gives you the on-app miles. Done for you. It costs nothing. It takes a different kind of work to build up your documentation but it is uncluttered by comparison. Between anything you do yourself and anything provided by Uber, Uber will be the one believed. This is true even if you do not get any 1099 at all.


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## Tampa Bay Hauler (May 2, 2019)

FLKeys said:


> Since I keep a daily trip log including all stops I have no concerns with an IRS mileage Audit. Many people say its a waste of time, but once you start doing it and get a routine it is easy.
> 
> As per IRS guidelines I record date. starting mileage and address, mileage and address for each stop, a brief description of the address description, and the activity for each leg or stop.
> 
> I keep a Steno pad and pen in my car and use them because I find the Steno Pad the easiest to use for me. As I have down time sitting in my car I use my tablet to transfer information into a spread sheet. Otherwise at the end of the day I do it from my home office.


 I would rather go to prison.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> I would rather go to prison.


@FLKeys from prior, It isnt common knowledge but auditors in general have impatience with stacks of details. If you have the sense that something is overkill, respect it. Going overboard could land you in red ink, just the thing you are trying in earnest to avoid. Auditors are trained to sniff fraud and report it...you may be honest, but you might inadvertently wave red flags. Then before you know it, your audit moves to every item on the tax return and three years prior. So, I am trying to help you all have what you feel you need and what you really need, without making the auditor work so hard.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

25rides7daysaweek said:


> My gross pocketed revenue with
> uber was $66k last year and
> uber told me I drove 52k miles.
> That pretty much lined up w
> ...


"Probably" is the word you need to avoid. It sounds logical and should be ok you'd think, but that was changed in 1986. "Probably" where it applies to mileage, is a probable disallowance. But there is a way to handle the overlapping miles, and that is indeed through the journal of miles in common.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

TripLog app.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

Seamus said:


> TripLog app.


I was thinking of penpaper app, the one where you write starting and stopping odo of miles when both apps are on, and when you take a ride with one you them you turn the other off, which you do while on a trip. Its a between-trip log of both apps being on . What you do with this log is you add up all the miles of it and subtract it from combined Lyft/Uber miles. Your auditor might just dance if you give him just the simplest of things, and very certain. Even when you have a lot of details, you have the official company records to be your proof. Your greatest achievement is showing what is redundant in this case. Running one app at a time saves you the trouble.

If I were the preparer, which I am not, I would write the process as a statement on the tax return. I was trained to do that. You can add any statement of proof or explanation on the filed tax return itself, and it can prevent a letter if it is clear. They would read it.



UberTaxPro said:


> I owned a taxi company for 15 years. ALL drivers filled this tripsheet out by hand for every trip. It was required by the state (still is I believe). Wasn't difficult once you got used to it. AND they were often used by drivers to prove loss of income to insurance companies after accidents.
> View attachment 392967


Did you own and operate your own cab, or did you just own the cabs that other drivers were driving? Because you refer to all drivers as other people.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> Did you own and operate your own cab, or did you just own the cabs that other drivers were driving? Because you refer to all drivers as other people.


Started with myself driving and one vehicle. Ended with 12 owner operators and myself doing the dispatching. I would purchase the vehicles at auction and convert them to taxis (paint, decals, taxi light, taxi meter etc..), then sell them (usually with a loan ) to the owner operators. A few owner operators came aboard with their own vehicle. I usually had 1 or 2 "company cars" that I would lease out on a daily basis. Sold the business 1yr before Uber came to town. Somewhat to my surprise the business still operates today, but down to 8 vehicles. I still do the taxes for the business.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> Started with myself driving and one vehicle. Ended with 12 owner operators and myself doing the dispatching. I would purchase the vehicles at auction and convert them to taxis (paint, decals, taxi light, taxi meter etc..), then sell them (usually with a loan ) to the owner operators. A few owner operators came aboard with their own vehicle. I usually had 1 or 2 "company cars" that I would lease out on a daily basis. Sold the business 1yr before Uber came to town. Somewhat to my surprise the business still operates today, but down to 8 vehicles. I still do the taxes for the business.


I grew up with two owner-operators in my extended family, in NYC where that was a big deal, with the medallions costing so much. They hooked up with radio dispatch in a network that still exists now decades later.

When in that timeline did you begin working with tax? Did you work for anyone? Why sell the business? How does that experience affect your view of Uber?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> I grew up with two owner-operators in my extended family, in NYC where that was a big deal, with the medallions costing so much. They hooked up with radio dispatch in a network that still exists now decades later.


Is the network still on radio? I started with the radio. Had to get FCC license and an assigned frequency. Gypsy cabs would listen in on scanners and try to beat us to the pickup. Then came beepers, nextel walkie talkie, and cell phones. Took many a vehicle to NYC to get hooked up with radio, meter and light. It was a 60 mile trip but there aren't any taxi shops closer. Got familiar with some NYC taxi people from all the waiting around in taxi shops. Several suicides and many bankruptcies are attributable to the drop in medallion prices.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> When in that timeline did you begin working with tax? Did you work for anyone? Why sell the business? How does that experience affect your view of Uber?


Started learning about tax when I became appalled at the prices accountants were charging me. Got my EA early in 17 and have been working full time during tax season for the last three years. I've had a remote gig at intuit answering questions, worked for few other tax pros and this tax season I've got a remote position doing business taxes for one of the larger online accounting firms.

Sold the taxi business for 3 reasons: 1. Three brothers that operated two cabs had been asking me to sell it to them for years. 2. I was tired of getting calls from the police at 3 am because a cab was blowing his horn waking people up or worse. 3. I was reading about Uber and was concerned about the prospect of sharing the streets with Uber.

The whole experience has taught me to think bigger and outside the box. With the owner operators I was basically doing the same thing Uber is doing now, providing dispatch service to drivers with their own cars. I was limiting myself by thinking inside the box and following all the multi levels of government regulations placed on traditional taxis thinking this was the only way. Uber on the other hand took the same simple idea (providing dispatch service to drivers with their own cars) outside the box and took it worldwide, made their own rules and claimed that the current laws don't apply.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> Started learning about tax when I became appalled at the prices accountants were charging me. Got my EA early in 17 and have been working full time during tax season for the last three years. I've had a remote gig at intuit answering questions, worked for few other tax pros and this tax season I've got a remote position doing business taxes for one of the larger online accounting firms.
> 
> Sold the taxi business for 3 reasons: 1. Three brothers that operated two cabs had been asking me to sell it to them for years. 2. I was tired of getting calls from the police at 3 am because a cab was blowing his horn waking people up or worse. 3. I was reading about Uber and was concerned about the prospect of sharing the streets with Uber.
> 
> The whole experience has taught me to think bigger and outside the box. With the owner operators I was basically doing the same thing Uber is doing now, providing dispatch service to drivers with their own cars. I was limiting myself by thinking inside the box and following all the multi levels of government regulations placed on traditional taxis thinking this was the only way. Uber on the other hand took the same simple idea (providing dispatch service to drivers with their own cars) outside the box and took it worldwide, made their own rules and claimed that the current laws don't apply.


In the beginning it seemed that the difference between taxi and Uber was significant but I see much the same but for how rides initiate. 
I was an outsider observing Uber and Lyft at the start and they both appeared sporadically at the same time. Lyft had that mustache, and Uber had the "U" logo. They wanted the same privileges to the grounds of a baseball stadium as taxis had, but the first season they were forced to let their pax out for the long walk, and the car u-turning out. Savvy and money changed that for the next year. Uber paid sponsorship money, and Lyft had to make the u-turns. Uber was growing, and Lyft was not, from that vantage point. Taxis still had their stands on the grounds but Uber bought themselves the use of part of a lot and a pickup zone. That was when I saw the lines between taxis and rideshare, in particular Uber, blur. Around that time NYC required the drivers to be licensed like cabbies. Another blur. It remains that the only difference is how the rides are initiated.

Regulations are a box and they are made for limitations and expansions as they apply. NYC hack licenses at least at some time required drivers to pass tests about landmarks and bridges, to know how to get around before gps existed. Uber drivers in NYC have similar regulations as cabs, but Uber in California at least is under the Calif Public Utilities Commission. I dont learn much about what that means.

It may be that the structure of regulations provides gratification to you as you manage to work within them. It is a learning process to determine how to apply them. Tax study for its own sake is boring. I was pursuaded to take the test for the IRS, an IQ test in actuality. They did not say so but it was obvious. All sorts of shapes, orders, reorders, problems, likenesses, differences, analyzing, blank filling, and on and on. On the test day I came in at a number that tempts one to think about mensa, but I did not know about them. One group interview later and I had a training date for my new job. Nine people were in my class. It was eighty hours with live instructors and quizzes. I called the course "Everything you never wanted to know about Form 1040". On that job, the form and all of its schedules were memorized by me.

I work with someone on a different job in private industry unrelated to tax, who for several years worked at H&R Block. He told me about the fragmented training they gave, so in his second year he still had never done a Schedule C. Some people get poor tax training.

Going from a taxi business to then passing the EA exam is a far field, which is difficult when you have CPA's and Tax Lawyers as your collegues and professional rivals. What formal Accounting teaches is the ways in which organized preparation for the next tax season dominates. And there is where you find the slippery slopes and errors en masse. CPA's do not learn tax. They learn AICPA standards. There is always a box. Colleges that teach taxation base the teachings on the most stringent corner of compliance. Honestly, the greatest freedom of knowing tax is by learning the depth and breadth of the IRS itself, as the culminating body after Congress and the President. This is not just the IRC (Internal Revenue Code), it is about what leads the IRS to write the Code. In response to the vast Tax Reform Act of 1986, a long time ago of course, the IRC had to be replaced. The sections are derived by the Act, but the Act is much much bigger. This means that the Code is not complete. When conflicts arise, Tax Lawyers and other strong practitioners look to numerous resources. The Act which created a law, is just one. The Congressional Record is another. Every time a new law passes and goes into the IRC, there are accompanying Regulations that modify the terms of that law to some applications. Then there are Rulings by the U.S. Tax Court that also modify for some applications. And those who need Rulings apply for them. In addition, determinations in tax cases also can apply. These can make your work interesting. It is the biggest of boxes.

The IRS always urges taxpayers to take every deduction they are entitled to. All of these resources bring those about.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> In the beginning it seemed that the difference between taxi and Uber was significant but I see much the same but for how rides initiate.
> I was an outsider observing Uber and Lyft at the start and they both appeared sporadically at the same time. Lyft had that mustache, and Uber had the "U" logo. They wanted the same privileges to the grounds of a baseball stadium as taxis had, but the first season they were forced to let their pax out for the long walk, and the car u-turning out. Savvy and money changed that for the next year. Uber paid sponsorship money, and Lyft had to make the u-turns. Uber was growing, and Lyft was not, from that vantage point. Taxis still had their stands on the grounds but Uber bought themselves the use of part of a lot and a pickup zone. That was when I saw the lines between taxis and rideshare, in particular Uber, blur. Around that time NYC required the drivers to be licensed like cabbies. Another blur. It remains that the only difference is how the rides are initiated.
> 
> Regulations are a box and they are made for limitations and expansions as they apply. NYC hack licenses at least at some time required drivers to pass tests about landmarks and bridges, to know how to get around before gps existed. Uber drivers in NYC have similar regulations as cabs, but Uber in California at least is under the Calif Public Utilities Commission. I dont learn much about what that means.
> ...


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> what he said


I once did plan to become enrolled to practice before the tax court. That was after I had prepared and filed some petitions to the tax court under whatever conditions applied at the time. Have you ever done one? Have you been to an Appeal?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> I once did plan to become enrolled to practice before the tax court. That was after I had prepared and filed some petitions to the tax court under whatever conditions applied at the time. Have you ever done one? Have you been to an Appeal?


No. How did you file the petition without being a USTCP or attorney?


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> No. How did you file the petition without being a USTCP or attorney?


I prepared the papers and had the client sign them and also Power of Attorney to be authorized to recieve the correspondence. In order to obtain an Appeal in the District that was the necessary procedure. There was no actual need for it to have reached a Judge. First IRS takes it to Appeals, and an attorney is called for if it goes forward to the litigation. My cases were audits that went bad that needed a larger view. I was an employee of a tax firm and sat in at the Appeals not the audits. One fellow did not have a case but tried for a discretionary allowance of his unwanted hobby loss. He was as business like as needed for showing but he simply never made the profit, and did not win his appeal. He had made no substantial changes to attempt to make profit. As a racer he never changed his trainor or jockey. That was what lost it for him. The Officer said he operated as though he was satisfied with the results. The other case was successful. It was a case where he had all his deductions and income reported in the wrong places on the 1040 and I was able to get the Officer to rework the return.

After that time period the restrictions on practitioners were brought about for audit representations. Under Appeals I was able to accompany but not stand in for the client.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> I prepared the papers and had the client sign them and also Power of Attorney to be authorized to recieve the correspondence. In order to obtain an Appeal in the District that was the necessary procedure. There was no actual need for it to have reached a Judge. First IRS takes it to Appeals, and an attorney is called for if it goes forward to the litigation. My cases were audits that went bad that needed a larger view. I was an employee of a tax firm and sat in at the Appeals not the audits. One fellow did not have a case but tried for a discretionary allowance of his unwanted hobby loss. He was as business like as needed for showing but he simply never made the profit, and did not win his appeal. He had made no substantial changes to attempt to make profit. As a racer he never changed his trainor or jockey. That was what lost it for him. The Officer said he operated as though he was satisfied with the results. The other case was successful. It was a case where he had all his deductions and income reported in the wrong places on the 1040 and I was able to get the Officer to rework the return.
> 
> After that time period the restrictions on practitioners were brought about for audit representations. Under Appeals I was able to accompany but not stand in for the client.


So fare everything I've done pro bono for the clinic has been an easy fix. Just finished one where TP was issued a W2 and a 1099 for the same income. 
I've heard other EA's talk about filling out petitions for tax court and having the client file it. As soon as it gets to the court it's sent back to IRS appeals for one last attempt at negotiating and the EA can step back in and represent the client in appeals. Useful if the TP has missed a deadline in the normal appeals process.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> So fare everything I've done pro bono for the clinic has been an easy fix. Just finished one where TP was issued a W2 and a 1099 for the same income.
> I've heard other EA's talk about filling out petitions for tax court and having the client file it. As soon as it gets to the court it's sent back to IRS appeals for one last attempt at negotiating and the EA can step back in and represent the client in appeals. Useful if the TP has missed a deadline in the normal appeals process.


That was standard procedure. It was paradoxical. The only way to get to Appeal is by filing Petition to the Tax Court, and the only way to Tax Court is to go beyond Appeal. Now there is a separate process, and in fact two. An audit Reconsideration or Appeal. There have been many changes since my day. Tax Court is where you go up to when you have a gray area that you need swayed in your client's favor that an Appeal Officer does not. For the racer case, he knew he couldnt hire a Tax Attorney, and he truly was complacent in his repeated losses, taking it for granted that he would win just because it was a business. But if you have a meaty gray area, you need to research and present the case law in the tax court. Have you ever done any legal research?

The deadline thing, if you miss an audit date or somehow the audit went poorly you use audit reconsideration as first remedy.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> That is standard procedure. It is paradoxical. The only way to get to Appeal is by filing Petition to the Tax Court, and the only way to Tax Court is to go beyond Appeal. The Appeal is needed after the assessment is finalized after an audit. Even if you just need a 1040x like in my case above, the Appeal process is where it must be submitted at that point. Tax Court is where you go up to when you have a gray area that you need swayed in your client's favor that an Appeal Officer does not. For the racer case, he knew he couldnt hire a Tax Attorney, and he truly was complacent in his repeated losses, taking it for granted that he would win just because it was a business. But if you have a meaty gray area, you need to research and present the case law in the tax court. Have you ever done any legal research?


yes, constitutional law was my favorite class in school! one of my few A's as I was more interested in extra curricular activity at the time. In my USTCP prep program we follow the Tax Court daily. When I started my taxi business I used the Courthouse law library to research all the regulation details because I couldn't afford a lawyer. 
So if the horse guy had changed his jockey/trainer a few times you think he would've won?


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> yes, constitutional law was my favorite class in school! one of my few A's as I was more interested in extra curricular activity at the time. In my USTCP prep program we follow the Tax Court daily. When I started my taxi business I used the Courthouse law library to research all the regulation details because I couldn't afford a lawyer.
> So if the horse guy had changed his jockey/trainer a few times you think he would've won?


Yes. He was asked repeatedly about what changes he made to improve his situation. Racer guy talked instead about long relationships. Appeal made it clear that racer had to try to change it. If he had, he would not had lost his case. I warned him he could lose. He was snarky and said "You are supposed to tell me I will win!" It is always best to leave an appeal with a happy client lol.

Following tax court is not what I meant however. It is different than researching the regulations, or reading decisions. Have you seen the movie "On The Basis Of Sex"? Did you notice what they were doing?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

At the clinic we won't take a case with no chance of prevailing - like a guy that claimed the AOTC credit. Self prepared and had no supporting documents, trade school didn't issue a 1098-T and wasn't an eligible AOTC school. Volunteers worked every angle but ultimately told him we couldn't help. 

Racer would have preferred you lie to him! If he had hired an attorney do you think he would have done any better? I don't think so except maybe a longer delay.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> At the clinic we won't take a case with no chance of prevailing - like a guy that claimed the AOTC credit. Self prepared and had no supporting documents, trade school didn't issue a 1098-T and wasn't an eligible AOTC school. Volunteers worked every angle but ultimately told him we couldn't help.
> 
> Racer would have preferred you lie to him! If he had hired an attorney do you think he would have done any better? I don't think so except maybe a longer delay.


He was disallowed the credit, specifically why? If the school was not eligible what was the reason? Any post-high school institution should qualify. What went wrong?


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> He was disallowed the credit, specifically why? If the school was not eligible what was the reason? Any post-high school institution should qualify. What went wrong?


IRS wanted documentation to support his deduction - he had none... no record of tuition paid or of even being a student. Also the school he claimed to attend wasn't an "eligible educational institution".

Not any post-high school institution qualifies. To qualify the school needs to be an "eligible educational institution". Basically it means the school has to offer financial aid under the HEA

(5) Eligible educational institution The term "eligible educational institution" means an institution- (A) which is described in section 481 of the Higher Education Act of 1965 ( 20 U.S.C. 1088 ), as in effect on the date of the enactment of this paragraph, and (B) which is eligible to participate in a program under title IV of such Act.

Source
26 USC § 529(e)(5)


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> IRS wanted documentation to support his deduction - he had none... no record of tuition paid or of even being a student. Also the school he claimed to attend wasn't an "eligible educational institution".
> 
> Not any post-high school institution qualifies. To qualify the school needs to be an "eligible educational institution". Basically it means the school has to offer financial aid under the HEA
> 
> ...


Here is the complication I see. Since you mentioned that more than one volunteer attempted to work the case, is it part of the process that they underwent to directly reach out to the school? Doing so is an action I would take logically. On the IRS website it is explained:

"_An eligible educational institution is a school offering higher education beyond high school. It is any college, university, trade school, or other post secondary educational institution eligible to participate in a student aid program run by the U.S. Department of Education.

This includes most accredited public, nonprofit and privately-owned-for-profit postsecondary institutions.

If you aren't sure if your school is an eligible educational institution:

• Ask your school if it is an eligible educational institution, or_
• _See if your school is on the U.S. Federal Student Aid Code List.

TIP: A small number of schools, *not on this list*, may be eligible educational institutions. So, you may need to ask the school" _


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> Here is the complication I see. Since you mentioned that more than one volunteer attempted to work the case, is it part of the process that they underwent to directly reach out to the school? Doing so is an action I would take logically. On the IRS website it is explained:
> 
> "_An eligible educational institution is a school offering higher education beyond high school. It is any college, university, trade school, or other post secondary educational institution eligible to participate in a student aid program run by the U.S. Department of Education.
> 
> ...


That's the exact list checked and yes financial aid is key. Thanks fo the tip. He hit the dead end when he couldn't produce any kind of tuition payment receipt. He was instructed to contact the school and come back with proof of tuition payment. Hasn't been back.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> That's the exact list checked and yes financial aid is key. Thanks fo the tip. He hit the dead end when he couldn't produce any kind of tuition payment receipt. He was instructed to contact the school and come back with proof of tuition payment. Hasn't been back.


So that sounds like a ten minute interview.


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> Useful if the TP has missed a deadline in the normal appeals process.


You passed the EA exam and are studying to go before the tax court. You advertise as an Uber tax specialist. You have the bulk of your experience as an owner of a Taxi company and sold the company about a year before Uber took a significant share of visibility. You say you drove a Taxi for about a year and you have not driven Uber in about a year. You are working for free in a tax clinic. This so far I am aware. I told you that I made petitions to the tax court. When I did I was already in the taxation activities for four years. Half of that was paid salary with employment by the IRS. Half of that was paid salary in private industry plus paid private practice with a variety of repeat clients. I worked in a computer tax return processing company and a tax preparation firm in a prominent location. For its time and place it was a famous local tax office that ran full page newspaper ads and drew people from the street and from a hundred miles. I had mentors because I never claimed that I knew better than they did in my short time. The one thing I knew I had to learn was the right words for things. This is why I write this post. You are mistaken about why a petition to the tax court is made. "If the tp has missed a deadline in the normal appeals process". Appeals only take place in the Appeals Division. An audit reconsideration is just that. It is not synonymous for Appeal. An audit reconsideration is performed in the Examination Division. When a deadline is missed in Examination you can ask to reopen the audit. Now, I may be out of date with departments. For example there is now a streamlined process by which one can get an appeal. There is also Taxpayer Advocate instead of Problem Resolution Office. I am not unhappy that I did not keep up. I left the industry entirely a long time ago. The earmark of an excellent or even competent practitioner is to be aware of why you are doing something. And it comes to this. You do not know why the contemporaneous records law has come about. You are not driving Uber so you do not see what is being provided contemporaneously to the drivers by Uber. If you do not see it you do not know it and you are telling people instructions they do not need. They believe you and you are deliberately out of step. Update yourself. You are a trainee more than a pro. But good luck. You can become a pro if you work at it. Knowing the IRC was my first two years. In my nine I learned a lot.


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## Older Chauffeur (Oct 16, 2014)

I appreciate your contributions, but they would be much easier to read if you could please use paragraphs. -o:
Thank you.:wink:


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

Older Chauffeur said:


> I appreciate your contributions, but they would be much easier to read if you could please use paragraphs. -o:
> Thank you.:wink:


I can work on that &#128578;


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> You passed the EA exam and are studying to go before the tax court. You advertise as an Uber tax specialist. You have the bulk of your experience as an owner of a Taxi company and sold the company about a year before Uber took a significant share of visibility. You say you drove a Taxi for about a year and you have not driven Uber in about a year. You are working for free in a tax clinic. This so far I am aware. I told you that I made petitions to the tax court. When I did I was already in the taxation activities for four years. Half of that was paid salary with employment by the IRS. Half of that was paid salary in private industry plus paid private practice with a variety of repeat clients. I worked in a computer tax return processing company and a tax preparation firm in a prominent location. For its time and place it was a famous local tax office that ran full page newspaper ads and drew people from the street and from a hundred miles. I had mentors because I never claimed that I knew better than they did in my short time. The one thing I knew I had to learn was the right words for things. This is why I write this post. You are mistaken about why a petition to the tax court is made. "If the tp has missed a deadline in the normal appeals process". Appeals only take place in the Appeals Division. An audit reconsideration is just that. It is not synonymous for Appeal. An audit reconsideration is performed in the Examination Division. When a deadline is missed in Examination you can ask to reopen the audit. Now, I may be out of date with departments. For example there is now a streamlined process by which one can get an appeal. There is also Taxpayer Advocate instead of Problem Resolution Office. I am not unhappy that I did not keep up. I left the industry entirely a long time ago. The earmark of an excellent or even competent practitioner is to be aware of why you are doing something. And it comes to this. You do not know why the contemporaneous records law has come about. You are not driving Uber so you do not see what is being provided contemporaneously to the drivers by Uber. If you do not see it you do not know it and you are telling people instructions they do not need. They believe you and you are deliberately out of step. Update yourself. You are a trainee more than a pro. But good luck. You can become a pro if you work at it. Knowing the IRC was my first two years. In my nine I learned a lot.


I giving advice that will keep rideshare drivers out of trouble with taxing authorities. I'm not quite sure what you're doing other than bragging about your mensa level IQ and your IRS experience. Advising people to not keep their own records and rely on Uber's records for tax purposes is insane!


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> I giving advice that will keep rideshare drivers out of trouble with taxing authorities. I'm not quite sure what you're doing other than bragging about your mensa level IQ and your IRS experience. Advising people to not keep their own records and rely on Uber's records for tax purposes is insane!


You do not know how to keep taxpayers out of trouble. You make a profession out of not paying attention. I see you be wrong so many times. You be more studious. These people are believing you. You have passed a test. That is your way of fooling yourself. In tax you have a lot to learn and limited willingness to do so. Nine years I spent in tax, two within the IRS (I dont know how to run a taxi company but it does not teach you what you a to keep people out of trouble and my training and work was all about that.)

You should refer people to a tax professional. Your clients could take your advise but strangers are too wide a berth for you. An auditor will get Uber records and will believe them. If the Uber-only driver uses them they are in excellent shape. Those records are sufficient. Drivers with more than Uber need to do more. Look for clients somewhere else.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> You do not know how to keep taxpayers out of trouble. You make a profession out of not paying attention. I see you be wrong so many times. You be more studious. These people are believing you. You have passed a test. That is your way of fooling yourself. In tax you have a lot to learn and limited willingness to do so. Nine years in taclx, two within the IRS (I dont know how to run a taxi company but it does not teach you what you a to keep people out of trouble and my training and work was all about that.


"That is your way of fooling yourself" And how many years in psychology?

Too bad you didn't work at the IRS for 5 years, that would have qualified you to be an EA without having to pass the three exams like I did. By the way, what are your qualifications other than the experience you speak about. Are you a CPA?


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> "That is your way of fooling yourself" And how many years in psychology?
> 
> Too bad you didn't work at the IRS for 5 years, that would have qualified you to be an EA without having to pass the three exams like I did. By the way, what are your qualifications other than the experience you speak about. Are you a CPA?


What a moronic question. I would still be in the IRS if I hadnt had to move across the country. I turned down a Division change to Collections when budget cuts hit my Division. I passed two of the exams but changed my mind. I was also trained by CPA's and prepared tax returns where the tax was over a million dollars. I consulted the first for-profit hospital chain owner for his own audit. Profit medicine is still repugnant to me. But you dont know how bad CPA's really can be. That makes you very naive.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> You do not know how to keep taxpayers out of trouble. You make a profession out of not paying attention. I see you be wrong so many times. You be more studious. These people are believing you. You have passed a test. That is your way of fooling yourself. In tax you have a lot to learn and limited willingness to do so. Nine years I spent in tax, two within the IRS (I dont know how to run a taxi company but it does not teach you what you a to keep people out of trouble and my training and work was all about that.)
> 
> You should refer people to a tax professional. Your clients could take your advise but strangers are too wide a berth for you. An auditor will get Uber records and will believe them. If the Uber-only driver uses them they are in excellent shape. Those records are sufficient. Drivers with more than Uber need to do more. Look for clients somewhere else.


But "sufficient" doesn't = "accurate"

An U/L driver is running a business and should keep his/her own records! Common Sense! Would you let Uber keep your checkbook for you? Then why let them do your bookkeeping? Tax records are much to important to entrust to another ...especially UBER for god's sake.



LADryver said:


> What a moronic question. I would still be in the IRS if I hadnt had to move across the country. I turned down a Division change to Collections when budget cuts hit my Division. I passed two of the exams but changed my mind. I was also trained by CPA's and prepared tax returns where the tax was over a million dollars. I consulted the first for-profit hospital chain owner for his own audit. Profit medicine is still repugnant to me. But you dont know how bad CPA's really can be. That makes you very naive.


You'd make a good CPA - CERTIFIED PAIN in the ASS


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> But "sufficient" doesn't = "accurate"
> 
> An U/L driver is running a business and should keep his/her own records! Common Sense! Would you let Uber keep your checkbook for you? Then why let them do your bookkeeping? Tax records are much to important to entrust to another ...especially UBER for god's sake.
> 
> ...


You really are a judgemental pigeon holer for businesses. I have news for you. The statements provided mean that, where applicable, the toil of trouble is saved. Not only that but your inexperience does not help you to know what is asked for in an aggressive audit. In an aggressive audit (decided by examiners behind the scenes as well as the examiner assigned) the income and expenses are audited. The more being said to the auditor, paradoxically the more aggressive the audit will become. You say something and the auditor activates an inner program to take you to the edge of a tax cliff. How you can avoid this, and how you can avoid an examination in the first place, I was paid to learn. The truth is, that when the audit letter comes, the examiner will place ink check marks on boxes or the computer equivalent, of what documents being demanded. Payment Statements will top the list. Automobile use contemporaneous proof will be next. Bank statements. Proofs of other expenses if applicable. If you have the notion that an examination would proceed without any of the documents being demanded, you are utterly wrong. No matter what you do, Uber reports will be the authority. Contradict them and you will have a change. Integrate them and you will not. The way to approach an audit like a business person is to use the resources that are the highest of credibility and doing so with confidence.

You are good at telling the summation but what was your incentive to sell your lucrative taxi cab business? Why are you satisfied giving partial, steering, judgmental information to a network of rideshare drivers? Do you love rideshare more than taxis? If you are not driving at all, and are giving wrong advise, what are you doing here? Messing with me? Asking about credentials you know you can not touch? Anyone can take a crash course and pass a tax exam by being given the answers to past exams. That kind of exam prep is an industry.

Anybody else want to be an Enrolled Agent? Click this.
https://fastforwardacademy.com/cour...cVuYkzOPaZtHmToCSUkJnEzrNFTK_2v8aAnffEALw_wcB
Or here: 
https://www.taxpreparerlearningsyst...XxapxMGVCZ5fIIpdjC6LMnLZhOoNzSV0aArF9EALw_wcB


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> You really are a judgemental pigeon holer for businesses. I have news for you. The statements provided mean that, where applicable, the toil of trouble is saved. Not only that but your inexperience does not help you to know what is asked for in an aggressive audit. In an aggressive audit (decided by examiners behind the scenes as well as the examiner assigned) the income and expenses are audited. The more being said to the auditor, paradoxically the more aggressive the audit will become. You say something and the auditor activates an inner program to take you to the edge of a tax cliff. How you can avoid this, and how you can avoid an examination in the first place, I was paid to learn. The truth is, that when the audit letter comes, the examiner will place ink check marks on boxes or the computer equivalent, of what documents being demanded. Payment Statements will top the list. Automobile use contemporaneous proof will be next. Bank statements. Proofs of other expenses if applicable. If you have the notion that an examination would proceed without any of the documents being demanded, you are utterly wrong. No matter what you do, Uber reports will be the authority. Contradict them and you will have a change. Integrate them and you will not. The way to approach an audit like a business person is to use the resources that are the highest of credibility and doing so with confidence.
> 
> You are good at telling the summation but what was your incentive to sell your lucrative taxi cab business? Why are you satisfied giving partial, steering, judgmental information to a network of rideshare drivers? Do you love rideshare more than taxis? If you are not driving at all, and are giving wrong advise, what are you doing here? Messing with me? Asking about credentials you know you can not touch? Anyone can take a crash course and pass a tax exam by being given the answers to past exams. That kind of exam prep is an industry.
> 
> ...


Uber tax documents are not a tax authority! The way Uber reports gross income on 1099's is under scrutiny everywhere.

Your have 0 credentials unless your mouth is a credential. You've never been authorized to represent anyone to the IRS yet you talk like you've done it for years.

"I passed two of the exams but changed my mind "
When you're ready to try to pass the 3rd EA exam use this study guide...it worked for me and costs less than the ones you pointed out.

https://wiseguides.com/


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> Uber tax documents are not a tax authority! The way Uber reports gross income on 1099's is under scrutiny everywhere.
> 
> Your have 0 credentials unless your mouth is a credential. You've never been authorized to represent anyone to the IRS yet you talk like you've done it for years.
> 
> ...


You lack the vocabulary.



UberTaxPro said:


> Uber tax documents are not a tax authority! The way Uber reports gross income on 1099's is under scrutiny everywhere.
> 
> Your have 0 credentials unless your mouth is a credential. You've never been authorized to represent anyone to the IRS yet you talk like you've done it for years.
> 
> ...


I know you are trying to defend yourself. It is understandable that you would lash out. Your claims not to realize the depth of my qualifications is deceiving because you should know the value that is accepted historically of my background. If I had not changed my mind I would have reached my goals no problem. My mind was changed because it was not the right career for me. It does not change my desire to help people however. But I would not place myself in a position of ignorance and hold myself out as an expert. You are in Taxation kindergarten. And like every child you think you are all growed up. Bad grammar intended.


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## UberTaxPro (Oct 3, 2014)

LADryver said:


> You lack the vocabulary.
> 
> 
> I know you are trying to defend yourself. It is understandable that you would lash out. Your claims not to realize the depth of my qualifications is deceiving because you should know the value that is accepted historically of my background. If I had not changed my mind I would have reached my goals no problem. My mind was changed because it was not the right career for me. It does not change my desire to help people however. But I would not place myself in a position of ignorance and hold myself out as an expert. You are in Taxation kindergarten. And like every child you think you are all growed up. Bad grammar intended.


 If you could see past your ego you'd realize there is nothing for me to defend. Can we move on or are you going to continue this banter?


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## LADryver (Jun 6, 2017)

UberTaxPro said:


> If you could see past your ego you'd realize there is nothing for me to defend. Can we move on or are you going to continue this banter?


Time will tell.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Wildgoose said:


> Since IRS is dealing with millions of drivers, they have tons of record that could be compared with your claim. ( They do have estimated miles driven based on income.) That's why they audit you to prove your claim.
> Since you have different work nature with average drivers, you may need to make a recorded list that will back your claim.
> For example, ... Date ..... Starts Odometer reading .... .Ends Odometer reading ... Total miles driven....
> use an MS Office Excel sheet and fill them up for the whole year. .. Maximum 365 days. That list will help you to prove your claim.


I'm guessing a ton of drivers have either not deducted any miles or have simply used Uber's numbers. It's clear from the drivers here and those I've talked to in person most have NO mileage log whatsoever. Bear in mind most only last a few months anyway. So the IRS's picture of rideshare drivers' dead miles is likely way too low.



Nate5Star said:


> I record all the same information, and write it all down while waiting for the pax at pick-up. They are rarely waiting on the curb. If they can jump right in the car, it only takes a second or two to write it down. Had a couple truck drivers as pax who gave me some quick tips. I also write down the pax's name at the top of each entry.
> 
> It's when I get home I turn number crazy. Spent years reconciling payments/bank accounts/billing systems for Verizon using excel spreadsheets that stretched out 40 to 50 pages, and was never more than .02 off. (You bet yer ass I found that two cents.) There is a page for every day that includes all the information for each trip that is provided in the details from the app, each trip is associated with the mileage, and any comments I make. Takes less than 30 minutes for me enter all the information. Then it's all linked to monthly total pages. There'a a total page for all the information, a page just for the payment information, total pages for mileage, a page comparing gas to mileage, earnings per mile, both active driven miles and total miles that includes the dead. I even recreated an excel version of Schedule C that has its own supporting pages that pulls the income from the daily pages, and on a separate page pulls the mileage driven then applies the standard deduction rate, and automatically updates the schedule c so I know my net income/loss. And dare I say there is a page to the side of the schedule c that applies the percentages needed for all the kinds of taxes.
> 
> I know it's overkill. But I can't help myself. I am a ruined man thanks to the phone company.


FYI I'm similar. But make sure you back that spreadsheet up and don't ONLY have it on your computer.



LADryver said:


> An auditor will get Uber records and will believe them. If the Uber-only driver uses them they are in excellent shape. Those records are sufficient. Drivers with more than Uber need to do more. Look for clients somewhere else.


1. I would never rely on Uber's records. They lie about everything and their technology is suspect at best.

2. Most drivers also drive for Lyft. Many for other apps (Doordash, Postmates, etc.). So most will need their own records regardless.


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## Nate5Star (Dec 18, 2019)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> FYI I'm similar. But make sure you back that spreadsheet up and don't ONLY have it on your computer.


Did I mention I am anal when it come to records 

It's not only on the laptop, but backed up on a 128 gig flash

A printed copy of everything is in a binder

The original little notebooks listing the odometer start/stop with reason as well as pay/bonus/app tips/etc notated for each ride is filed away

I am embarrassed to say I still have my first pay stub (and all the ones following it) filed along with all my tax returns, in the attic. And I qualify for Social Security this summer, so you can imagine the bon fire waiting to happen up there.


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## pengduck (Sep 26, 2014)

RioRoja said:


> For sure. Even if the OP painstakingly fabricated a detailed mileage log to line up with his mileage deduction for the year, a 30% ratio (22,400/41,000) of paid miles to deductible miles is a noticeable deviation from the norm which I would bet is in the neighborhood of 50%. Also, I don't imagine the "I always have my Uber app on during my commute" line is going to fly with the IRS as an excuse to deduct 100% of his commuter miles to and from his day job - especially since the OP stated that he rarely gets any rides during his commute.


Just because he rarely got trips is not something that would void the deduction. The requirements are that you are online and accepting trips when they exist. However if the driver was declining all requests during this time that's a different story.


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