# Uber and Lyft fail to convince judges their employees are 'independent contractors'



## Montgomery (Jan 7, 2015)

*Uber and Lyft fail to convince judges their employees are 'independent contractors'*

Dan Levine and Edwin Chan, Reuters

http://www.businessinsider.com/uber...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Ride hailing apps Uber and Lyft failed to persuade separate U.S. judges on Wednesday to rule that their drivers are independent contractors instead of employees, in cases that have wide implications for Silicon Valley "sharing economy" firms.

U.S. District Judges Edward Chen and Vince Chhabria in San Francisco federal court said in two rulings that juries would have to determine the status of each companies' drivers.

Uber and Lyft face separate lawsuits seeking class action status in San Francisco, brought on behalf of drivers who contend they are employees and entitled to reimbursement for expenses, including gas and vehicle maintenance. The drivers currently pay those costs themselves.

An ultimate finding against the two biggest car-ride services could significantly raise their costs beyond the lawsuits' scope and force them to pay Social Security, workers' compensation, and unemployment insurance.

That could in turn affect the valuations of not just Lyft and Uber but also other startups that rely on large networks of privately contracted individuals to provide rides, clean houses and the like.

Uber, Lyft and lawyers for the plaintiffs did not immediately respond to requests for comments on the ruling.

Uber has raised more than $4 billion from prominent venture capital firms such as Benchmark and Google Ventures, valuing the company at $40 billion and making it the most valuable U.S. startup. Lyft has raised $331 million from Andreessen Horowitz, Founders Fund and other investors.

In Wednesday's ruling, Chhabria acknowledged the difficulty of parsing the status of Lyft's drivers, who share common characteristics with both full-time employees and contractors.

"The jury in this case will be handed a square peg and asked to choose between two round holes," the judge wrote.

"California's outmoded test for classifying workers will apply in cases like this. And because the test provides nothing remotely close to a clear answer, it will often be for juries to decide."

(Editing by Phil Berlowitz and Steve Orlofsky)

This article originally appeared at Reuters. Copyright 2015. Follow Reuters on Twitter.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/uber...-independent-contractors-2015-3#ixzz3U8tj0Jx4


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## Montgomery (Jan 7, 2015)

The one thing I don't like about this is if drivers are ultimately classified as employees then Uber/Lyft can then set hours and schedules for drivers, which throws away the flexibility that got me and who knows how many others people into this in the first place.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Or they will adjust their policies so that we really are independent contractors. That would be just fine.


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## pengduck (Sep 26, 2014)

Montgomery said:


> The one thing I don't like about this is if drivers are ultimately classified as employees then Uber/Lyft can then set hours and schedules for drivers, which throws away the flexibility that got me and who knows how many others people into this in the first place.


First they would have to pay minimum wage for all the hours you have already worked. Then they would have to pay the SS and FICA. This means whatever you paid in would be refunded to you. At this point they would have to make us either employees or true independent contractors. This means we would have a bigger say in the fares that are charged.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Like sidecar


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

pengduck said:


> First they would have to pay minimum wage for all the hours you have already worked. Then they would have to pay the SS and FICA. This means whatever you paid in would be refunded to you. At this point they would have to make us either employees or true independent contractors. This means we would have a bigger say in the fares that are charged.


Yes Sir correct!


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## driveLA (Aug 15, 2014)

It's easy. Stop stealing our pay, tips, cancellation fees, and forcing us to take rides we don't want you scumbags.


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

And pay the airport fees so we can pickup there legally.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Montgomery said:


> The one thing I don't like about this is if drivers are ultimately classified as employees then Uber/Lyft can then set hours and schedules for drivers, which throws away the flexibility that got me and who knows how many others people into this in the first place.


ultimately they would have to add a layer of administrative personnel to handle all of these "new employees" and my guess is there would be less resources available, meaning less driver positions. i just love it when the govt interferes in the private markets!!!


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Sacto Burbs said:


> Or they will adjust their policies so that we really are independent contractors. That would be just fine.


good point.. and does anyone think this will benefit drivers?


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

It is called SIDECAR, and it works great. If the other companies were forced into the sidecar model drivers would all be better off.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Sacto Burbs said:


> It is called SIDECAR, and it works great. If the other companies were forced into the sidecar model drivers would all be better off.


so each driver gets to set their own rate?


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> good point.. and does anyone think this will benefit drivers?


Yes. The benefits of being an employee are good. The benefits of being an Independent Contractor are good. Not getting the benefits of being either SUCKS!


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> Yes. The benefits of being an employee are good. The benefits of being an Independent Contractor are good. Not getting the benefits of being either SUCKS!


i hope you are right concerning the independent contractor option but i know becoming an employee would be a bad thing for most.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> i hope you are right concerning the independent contractor option but i know becoming an employee would be a bad thing for most.


Uber can't afford to employ drivers if it honestly believes it's system will have 1,000,000 drivers by the end of 2015. If Uber loses the lawsuit, they will be forced to stop treating drivers like employees, which means the benefits of being an IC start being realized by the drivers.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> Uber can't afford to employ drivers if it honestly believes it's system will have 1,000,000 drivers by the end of 2015. If Uber loses the lawsuit, they will be forced to stop treating drivers like employees, which means the benefits of being an IC start being realized by the drivers.


which parrots what i was saying.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

@Rideshare Patriot

You driving yet?


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Sacto Burbs said:


> @Rideshare Patriot
> 
> You driving yet?


you know what sacto? as a pax, even if i knew you were going to get lost i would choose you over stinky cabbies 10 out of 10 times!!!


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> which parrots what i was saying.


Being an employee of a company run by Travis Kalanick would without a doubt suck. We know that already given drivers are treated like employees by Uber. So, yes, if the results in the lawsuit cause Uber to recognize all drivers as employees to the IRS, the treatment of drivers wouldn't change and would continue to suck just like it does now. But Uber would now have the burden of paying the employer side of regulated costs of employment, such as for example... payroll taxes for the drivers, which would qualify the drivers for the social safety nets governments puts in place for companies who tend to dump workers to the streets instead of trying to resolve issues with them.

Of course the other thing Uber could if it loses the lawsuit is to continue to keep drivers as independent contractors and STOP treating them like employees. Of course Uber could do that right now. It doesn't require the courts to make Uber do the right legal thing. But when has Travis ever done the right legal thing?


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> Being an employee of a company run by Travis Kalanick would without a doubt suck. We know that already given drivers are treated like employees by Uber. So, yes, if the results in the lawsuit cause Uber to recognize all drivers as employees to the IRS, the treatment of drivers wouldn't change and would continue to suck just like it does now. But Uber would now have the burden of paying the employer side of regulated costs of employment, such as for example... payroll taxes for the drivers, which would qualify the drivers for the social safety nets governments puts in place for companies who tend to dump workers to the streets instead of trying to resolve issues with them.
> 
> Of course the other thing Uber could if it loses the lawsuit is to continue to keep drivers as independent contractors and STOP treating them like employees. Of course Uber could do that right now. It doesn't require the courts to make Uber do the right legal thing. But when has Travis ever done the right legal thing?


making the tnc pay for bennies will cut the driver numbers considerably. i see no way around that. it may sound great but ultimately it has its consequences and all lose... except the cabbie companies.

the solution is to increase opportunity which means cutting out govt intrusion. you don't solve unemployment with increased unemployment. that is the big elephant in the room... massive depression-esque unemployment. people are desperate for work, giving a few some bennnies and taking away their flexibilty (freedom) and shutting out those willing to work, is communist thinking.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> making the tnc pay for bennies will cut the driver numbers considerably. i see no way around that. it may sound great but ultimately it has its consequences and all lose... except the cabbie companies.
> 
> the solution is to increase opportunity which means cutting out govt intrusion. you don't solve unemployment with increased unemployment. that is the big elephant in the room... massive depression-esque unemployment. people are desperate for work, giving a few some bennnies and taking away their flexibilty (freedom) and shutting out those willing to work, is communist thinking.


You willing to work in Nashville TN for .73 per mile $2.00 minimum fare is nuts. Not even economically sound. Losing money just starting the car.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> ultimately they would have to add a layer of administrative personnel to handle all of these "new employees" and my guess is there would be less resources available, meaning less driver positions. i just love it when the govt interferes in the private markets!!!





Rideshare Patriot said:


> making the tnc pay for bennies will cut the driver numbers considerably. i see no way around that. it may sound great but ultimately it has its consequences and all lose... except the cabbie companies.
> 
> the solution is to increase opportunity which means cutting out govt intrusion. you don't solve unemployment with increased unemployment. that is the big elephant in the room... massive depression-esque unemployment. people are desperate for work, giving a few some bennnies and taking away their flexibilty (freedom) and shutting out those willing to work, is communist thinking.


They could treat drivers like true independent contractors and avoid the employer burden.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> They could treat drivers like true independent contractors and avoid the employer burden.


Allow drivers to set there own rates. Yep @Tx rides.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> They could treat drivers like true independent contractors and avoid the employer burden.


Uber missed the boat on that!


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Txchick said:


> You willing to work in Nashville TN for .73 per mile $2.00 minimum fare is nuts. Not even economically sound. Losing money just starting the car.


LOL... ummm your assumptions are incorrect.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Tx rides said:


> They could treat drivers like true independent contractors and avoid the employer burden.


as myself and others agreed.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Txchick said:


> Allow drivers to set there own rates. Yep @Tx rides.


Or at least be able to decline without repercussions. We are providers for several large livery affiliates. If they send a run request at a price which is too low, we politely decline. Eventually, someone either does it for a cheaper price then we will do, or they resubmit with higher price. Even though Uber thinks they are innovative geniuses, this ain't the first BBQ in Texas!!! Lol


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> making the tnc pay for bennies will cut the driver numbers considerably. i see no way around that. it may sound great but ultimately it has its consequences and all lose... except the cabbie companies.


Given Uber's practice of flooding the market with more new drivers than more new demand, this would benefit drivers. It's not only annoying to have a shift you typically work produce less and less and less because Uber is bringing more and more and more drivers online, it impacts drivers lives because this decision by Uber is paid for out of the driver's bottom line. If the drivers were employees this business decision by Uber would be paid for out of Uber's bottom line. There is a reason why cities limit the number of taxis in operation, and that mechanism is completely absent in Uber's current business model.



> the solution is to increase opportunity which means cutting out govt intrusion. you don't solve unemployment with increased unemployment. that is the big elephant in the room... massive depression-esque unemployment. people are desperate for work, giving a few some bennnies and taking away their flexibilty (freedom) and shutting out those willing to work, is communist thinking.


You also don't solve unemployment by taking 1000 people each making $30,000 per year and turning it into 3000 people each making $10,000 per year. And Travis isn't doing just that for the purpose of solving unemployment. He's doing it so that there's an Uber on every street corner as opposed to an Uber being on every three street corners.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> Given Uber's practice of flooding the market with more new drivers than more new demand, this would benefit drivers. It's not only annoying to have a shift you typically work produce less and less and less because Uber is bringing more and more and more drivers online, it impacts drivers lives because this decision by Uber is paid for out of the driver's bottom line. If the drivers were employees this business decision by Uber would be paid for out of Uber's bottom line. There is a reason why cities limit the number of taxis in operation, and that mechanism is completely absent in Uber's current business model.
> 
> You also don't solve unemployment by taking 1000 people each making $30,000 per year and turning it into 3000 people each making $10,000 per year. And Travis isn't doing just that for the purpose of solving unemployment. He's doing it so that there's an Uber on every street corner as opposed to an Uber being on every three street corners.


"this would benefit drivers"... yes some ....and would result in less working which means more unemployment. so how do you solve that? more opportunity means less people available to drive for a specific TNC. so in order to fix this dynamic we need to solve our massive unemployment numbers we currently are "enjoying." putting more drivers out of work is not the answer.

your proposal would benefit those fortunate enough to be employed? that reminds me of the life raft analogy... when you are treading water you want on that raft... but once safely on board you realize you can't save everyone. the difference here is there is no reason we can't have full employment in this country.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> as myself and others agreed.


Well your aviator suggests you are Nashville TN unless you are driving in another market. Rates quoted are for Uber X for the Nashville market for Uber X & no sorry your not making money @.73 cents per mile $2.00 minimum fare unless Nashville TN surges 24 hours 7 days a week. If you are driving another platform in Nashville TN. yes you can make money at higher rates.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Txchick said:


> Well your aviator suggests you are Nashville TN unless you are driving in another market. Rates quoted are for Uber X for the Nashville market for Uber X & no sorry your not making money @.73 cents per mile $2.00 minimum fare unless Nashville TN surges 24 hours 7 days a week. If you are driving another platform in Nashville TN. yes you can make money at higher rates.


not once have i claimed to be driving. and i wish i was an AVIATOR!

i will be the first uber pilot!!! how cool would that be? i will only charge $9.99 a mile.

**Today's Special**


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> not once have i claimed to be driving. and i wish i was an AVIATOR!
> 
> i will be the first uber pilot!!!


Ok then why are you in a Uber's Drivers forum if you haven't or are currently driving for Uber or Lyft??


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Txchick said:


> Ok then why are you in a Uber's Drivers forum if you haven't or are currently driving for Uber or Lyft??


i love the dynamic of "ridesharing" and yes i know what the term actually means and how the public perceives it. as far as driving professionally i am not inclined right now to share my exact circumstances but i have answered some questions in other threads.

may i stay and participate txchick?


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> i love the dynamic of "ridesharing" and yes i know what the term actually means and how the public perceives it. as far as driving professionally i am not inclined right now to share my exact circumstances but i have answered some questions in other threads.
> 
> may i stay and participate txchick?


You can do anything you want!


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> You also don't solve unemployment by taking 1000 people each making $30,000 per year and turning it into 3000 people each making $10,000 per year. And Travis isn't doing just that for the purpose of solving unemployment. He's doing it so that there's an Uber on every street corner as opposed to an Uber being on every three street corners.


Travis went to the Starbucks School of Business ... Flood the market and make it the "only" game in town. Lewis Black did a joke once about a Starbucks being across the street from another Starbucks; if Travis has his way ... companies will outlaw carpools and require UberPool (since you don't have to build parking lots for cars that are only dropping people off)


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> "this would benefit drivers"... yes some ....and would result in less working which means more unemployment. so how do you solve that?


That's government's burden, not Uber's.

Uber's responsibility is to provide fair and adequate compensation for the jobs it does create. You can't solve one social injustice by just swapping it for another. If Uber can create more fair and adequately paid jobs, then that helps government's ability to deal with societal issues. Creating a lot of unfair and inadequately paid jobs hurts government's ability to deal with societal issues.



> more opportunity means less people available to drive for a specific TNC. so in order to fix this dynamic we need to solve our massive unemployment numbers we currently are "enjoying." putting more drivers out of work is not the answer.


Putting 1,000,000 people into jobs that are not covered by social safety nets is not the answer to unemployment either.



> your proposal would benefit those fortunate enough to be employed? that reminds me of the life raft analogy... when you are treading water you want on that raft... but once safely on board you realize you can't save everyone. the difference here is there is no reason we can't have full employment in this country.


Yes there is a reason we can't have full employment. Every economist will tell you that would produce a very bad result. A small amount of unemployment is GOOD for the overall health of the economy. And given it must exist for the overall economic health, government creates laws to protect that percentage of the population from being exploited by companies with management who think they are innovative and creative because they've discovered those people are so desperate they will do anything for a buck. It doesn't take a genius to realize poor, desperate and unemployed people will do anything for as little as a buck an hour. It just takes a DICK willing to actually do that to them.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> you know what sacto? as a pax, even if i knew you were going to get lost i would choose you over stinky cabbies 10 out of 10 times!!!


Before or after you found out that I have been deactivated for a 4.4 rating two weeks in a row?

Cabbies, limo drivers, Lyft and Uber we are all drivers here. Except you.

Don't dis my homies


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Sacto Burbs said:


> Before or after you found out that I have been deactivated for a 4.4 rating two weeks in a row?
> 
> Cabbies, limo drivers, Lyft and Uber we are all drivers here. Except you.
> 
> Don't dis my homies


is russell your homie too?

sorry... these cabbies that hate freedom and want to continue the status quo of more regs, more fees, licensing req's, keeping the mob cab rackets protected can kiss my ass. if you support them then i seriously misjudged you.

some of these drivers want you sidelined... you are competition to them and they couldn't care less about you.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> That's government's burden, not Uber's.
> 
> Uber's responsibility is to provide fair and adequate compensation for the jobs it does create. You can't solve one social injustice by just swapping it for another. If Uber can create more fair and adequately paid jobs, then that helps government's ability to deal with societal issues. Creating a lot of unfair and inadequately paid jobs hurts government's ability to deal with societal issues.
> 
> ...


where did you come up with this nonsense? do you think it is govt's role to create more jobs? do you realize this is worse than a zero sum game?

the only way to get uber to provide better rates is to solve the massive unemployment numbers we now "enjoy." uber would have to compete for drivers then. there is no other way around this. what you want to do is force them to raise rates and cut drivers. we are just going to disagree on this.

you keep talking about social safety nets... what the hell are you referring to? social security.. self employment taxes? obamacare? i admit, you lost me there.

full employment is not where everyone is working.. it is where everyone that wants to work, and is physically capable has an opportunity. and last time i looked.. that is a very good thing.


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Montgomery said:


> *Uber and Lyft fail to convince judges their employees are 'independent contractors'*
> 
> Dan Levine and Edwin Chan, Reuters
> 
> ...


POST #1&3/ @Montgomery : Thank

you for Posting this Hyperlinked Arti-
cle the Topic of which was begun as a
Thread by @chi1cabby last night. It
seems that YOU'VE gained the traction, though!


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## NOVA yuppie (Oct 17, 2014)

This lawsuit is going to f$&ck everything up. Leave it up to a holes from California to start some frivolous lawsuit. Why can't they just leave everything alone and let us earn some money. If they go through with this by having to pay out all the stupid benefits the cost of an Uber ride will skyrocket And wont be competitive against the cabs. I tell you what I would do if I were Uber And Faced The situation directly, I would pull my chocks and cash out my $40 billion and say screw you, and personally I wouldn't blame them if they did.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

NOVA yuppie said:


> This lawsuit is going to f$&ck everything up. Leave it up to a holes from California to start some frivolous lawsuit. Why can't they just leave everything alone and let us earn some money. If they go through with this by having to pay out all the stupid benefits the cost of an Uber ride will skyrocket And wont be competitive against the cabs. I tell you what I would do if I were Uber And Faced The situation directly, I would pull my chocks and cash out my $40 billion and say screw you, and personally I wouldn't blame them if they did.


Oh look another new member posting from Virginia...do you drive or did you in the past or just like to drop in on Rideshare forums & spout??


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Ziggy said:


> Travis went to the Starbucks School of Business ... Flood the market and make it the "only" game in town. Lewis Black did a joke once about a Starbucks being across the street from another Starbucks; if Travis has his way ... companies will outlaw carpools and require UberPool (since you don't have to build parking lots for cars that are only dropping people off)


The Starbucks he was talking about are in houston and although he joked ABOUT them they are no joke. They exist. Although now there's a 3rd at the same corner in the Barnes and Noble. Go to 2050 w gray houston tx and do street view and turn around.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> where did you come up with this nonsense? do you think it is govt's role to create more jobs? do you realize this is worse than a zero sum game?
> 
> the only way to get uber to provide better rates is to solve the massive unemployment numbers we now "enjoy." uber would have to compete for drivers then. there is no other way around this. what you want to do is force them to raise rates and cut drivers. we are just going to disagree on this.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. I thought I was talking with an educated person. My bad.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> you know what sacto? as a pax, even if i knew you were going to get lost i would choose you over stinky cabbies 10 out of 10 times!!!





Rideshare Patriot said:


> sorry... these cabbies that hate freedom and want to continue the status quo of more regs, more fees, licensing req's, keeping the mob cab rackets protected can kiss my ass.


Dude you're are a freaking hater!
You insult other forum members routinely!
A little factoid for you: 1 in 5 UberX Drivers are former cab drivers.








You ain't particularly well informed about the TNC related issues involved.
You're just here to throw talking points against Cab Drivers straight out of www.TaxiFacts.com
And most incredulously, you're here to tell Drivers that they should not begrudge Uber's policies, but instead should be grateful to Uber.
Why? Because "Free Enterprise, Free Enterprise"!

Go drive in Nashville for a few weeks to pay your bills and put food on the table with your Uber earnings, before you start preaching to Drivers.


Rideshare Patriot said:


> the only way to get uber to provide better rates is to solve the massive unemployment numbers we now "enjoy."


FYI, the latest Uber Rate Cuts began on Jan 9th. Latest US unemployment rate was 5.5%. In Jan 2014 the unemployment rate was 6.6%, and UberX Rates were ~ 60% higher.
http://ycharts.com/indicators/unemployment_rate

So brush up on your macroeconomic facts. And learn a bit more about drivers' grievances and TNC issues too. Your Free Enterprise, Free Enterprise rallying cry ain't going over too well right now,
*Mr @Rideshare Patriot!*


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2015)

Tx rides said:


> They could treat drivers like true independent contractors and avoid the employer burden.


It will be interesting to watch the lawsuit in California. I originally was of the opinion that Uber drivers were independent contractors but my recent interaction with Uber Houston made me change my mind. I added a SUV to use as a Uber XL but I still get Uber X request. I only accept the XL request for obvious reasons and recently received an email from Uber that my acceptance rate was below normal and I would be deactivated permanently if I did not get the rate up. This was all several days after me asking only to get XL request only and told this was not possible. Basically Uber is forcing me to take money losing trips or be fired although they created the driver tier of XL and I qualified it. That is an employer.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> Dude you're are a freaking hater!
> You insult other forum members routinely!
> A little factoid for you: 1 in 5 UberX Drivers are former cab drivers.
> View attachment 5861
> ...


Preach it @chi1cabby!


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

HOU said:


> It will be interesting to watch the lawsuit in California. I originally was of the opinion that Uber drivers were independent contractors but my recent interaction with Uber Houston made me change my mind. I added a SUV to use as a Uber XL but I still get Uber X request. I only accept the XL request for obvious reasons and recently received an email from Uber that my acceptance rate was below normal and I would be deactivated permanently if I did not get the rate up. This was all several days after me asking only to get XL request only and told this was not possible. Basically Uber is forcing me to take money losing trips or be fired although they created the driver tier of XL and I qualified it. That is an employer.


@Tx rides correct my fellow Texan, just lke the requirements on the guarantees that started in January 2015 dictating acceptance rate, time criteria etc. I wonder since guarantees are fairly new & Uber XL is fairly new if these could be used in class action lawsuit? Just wondering!


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Txchick said:


> @Tx rides correct my fellow Texan, just lke the requirements on the guarantees that started in January 2015 dictating acceptance rate, time criteria etc. I wonder since guarantees are fairly new & Uber XL is fairly new if these could be used in class action lawsuit? Just wondering!


Guarantees on their own probably pass an IC test, but threats of deactivation, probably not


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> Guarantees on their own probably pass an IC test,


Not when the guarantees are structured to preclude Drivers accepting Lyft ride requests.


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

Txchick said:


> Allow drivers to set there own rates. Yep @Tx rides.


 I love this one. If I was an uberx driver I would say about $2/mile. 75cents min. Also be able to charge for xtra pax.


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> is russell your homie too?
> 
> sorry... these cabbies that hate freedom and want to continue the status quo of more regs, more fees, licensing req's, keeping the mob cab rackets protected can kiss my ass. if you support them then i seriously misjudged you.
> 
> some of these drivers want you sidelined... you are competition to them and they couldn't care less about you.


 Even for a straw-man argument, this is ludicrous. One big freedom that cabbies have over ridershares is not having to worry about those stupid pax ratings. As far the mafia, I'm certain that my company is not owned by a mobster.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> these cabbies that hate freedom and want to continue the status quo


You're an entertaining troll I must say.

Hey I believe in the free market. If I was a taxi driver and somebody muscled in on my territory I would do everything within my power to crush them. I think the stickers on those cars in Amsterdam intending to intimidate are a great idea. Capitalism is a nasty bloody business. The free market takes no prisoners. Freedom is the freedom to crush other people without anybody making out sound.

You still want to get in my car?


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> Not when the guarantees are structured to preclude Drivers accepting Lyft ride requests.


Is it "worded" that way, or does it just happen to result in that? I don't think a 'bonus' for being available will meet employment test.
But deactivation for NOT being available, that's a different story. But I think it is the other stuff, like telling you what TYPES of runs you must do, or making you eat the time for a free cancellation, making you return items, taking away your agreed fare because of a customer complaint....THOSE are the things which should turn the case.


----------



## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> You're an entertaining troll I must say.
> 
> Hey I believe in the free market. If I was a taxi driver and somebody muscled in on my territory I would do everything within my power to crush them. I think the stickers on those cars in Amsterdam intending to intimidate are a great idea. Capitalism is a nasty bloody business. The free market takes no prisoners. Freedom is the freedom to crush other people without anybody making out sound.
> 
> You still want to get in my car?


 I will. I just don't know the appropriate uber pax etiquette. From what I've read from uberX drivers on here, I should demand free beverages, kitkat candy bars, making you wait an extra 10 minutes for free, be self-entitled. etc


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> Is it "worded" that way, or does it just happen to result in that? I don't think a 'bonus' for being available will meet employment test.
> But deactivation for NOT being available, that's a different story. But I think it is the other stuff, like telling you what TYPES of runs you must do, or making you eat the time for a free cancellation, making you return items, taking away your agreed fare because of a customer complaint....THOSE are the things which should turn the case.


I think there are way too many variables for the potential jurors in this case to digest. They should just flip a coin. IC or emp, or ennie meenie minnee mo etc.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Lidman said:


> I will. I just don't know the appropriate uber pax etiquette. From what I've read from uberX drivers on here, I should demand free beverages, kitkat candy bars, making you wait an extra 10 minutes for free, be self-entitled. etc


I'm only a Lyft driver now. You are forced to let me fist bump with you. And I make you hold the cuddlestasche.


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

lOL, That's not very lady like. I thought girls were supposed to be "sugar and spice and everything nice".


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Ok, if you want to be ladylike, no hassles from me. I've been trained to let the lady dictate the terms of engagement.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> And I make you hold the cuddlestasche.


This sounds quite wrong.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> ultimately they would have to add a layer of administrative personnel to handle all of these "new employees" and my guess is there would be less resources available, meaning less driver positions. i just love it when the govt interferes in the private markets!!!


Your comment gets at the crux of the matter.
Some drivers WANT limits on how many drivers can work a given market. Others want no limits. This latter view is the UBER position.

Every profession in every industry tries to limit the competition. It's human nature. And human nature plays a part in all markets. Free markets are largely a fantasy.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Lidman said:


> I think there are way too many variables for the potential jurors in this case to digest. They should just flip a coin. IC or emp, or ennie meenie minnee mo etc.


That's how we elect our government!


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

"what you want to do is force them to raise rates and cut drivers" the most idiotic question of the day or night


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

stuber said:


> Your comment gets at the crux of the matter.
> Some drivers WANT limits on how many drivers can work a given market. Others want no limits. This latter view is the UBER position.
> 
> Every profession in every industry tries to limit the competition. It's human nature. And human nature plays a part in all markets. Free markets are largely a fantasy.


I don't believe Uber wants "no limit" - remember, they never fought to have ALL regulations lifted - they fought to have a special exemption for them. I do think there should be a cap on how many can populate/troll/hover/etc, but parking limitations will control much of that. I believe some regulations should exist to allow a service to 'register' as a tourist/visitor vendor, which is what we all are, for the most part. I think that wild west gypsies will flood an area, if allowed, paying no local dues, and that is bad. But if everyone is paying the same, with the same regulatory fees, the herd will thin by default, short of plummeting employment rates.


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> That's how we elect our government!


 we're not supposed to know that. it's all secretive.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

I've had three requests this week about the cuddlestasche which I keep in the glove compartment. I tell my passengers to go ahead and open the glove compartment and they all take it out and hold it and laugh. 

What were You thinking?


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> I don't believe Uber wants "no limit" - remember, they never fought to have ALL regulations lifted - they fought to have a special exemption for them. I do think there should be a cap on how many can populate/troll/hover/etc, but parking limitations will control much of that. I believe some regulations should exist to allow a service to 'register' as a tourist/visitor vendor, which is what we all are, for the most part. I think that wild west gypsies will flood an area, if allowed, paying no local dues, and that is bad. But if everyone is paying the same, with the same regulatory fees, the herd will thin by default, short of plummeting employment rates.


I've seen no evidence that UBER will limit the supply of drivers. They have closed off the incoming drivers for certain tiers in certain markets. Black, for instance, is currently closed where I work. It's not clear why.

Ultimately though, I feel that UBER's vision is for massive saturation. They want a car on every corner, 24/7.

If that's the case, and they succeed in that goal, then you can kiss goodbye the full-time professional drivers. Those people will be replaced with an army of part-timers.

I'm against that, because I don't want to drive AND be forced to hold down two or other part-time jobs. Do you?

I'm old-fashioned in that view.


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## Rubyson&sme (Dec 1, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> Or they will adjust their policies so that we really are independent contractors. That would be just fine.


Sacto Burbs my friend, Unfortunately, in truth, there is no such thing as a "successful model" of independent contractor use. Many have tried, all have failed. Why? It is a two sided tax dodge with a powerful side and near helpless hopeless side. With both sides pointing at the other to take responsibility for the host of the expenses and taxes while the other reaps most of the profits. The more powerful side always claims there position is correct, but, despite how much they spend to say it isn't what is, it still is exactly what it is...a tax dodge. And the Taxman and The Grim Reaper always get their due... A Rubela Lament.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

It is a game. Play on.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> It is a game. Play on.


I'd like to play through, if the ****s would just get out of the way.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Wow, I'm golf reference.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Wasn't sure what I meant, but it seemed to flow, so I went with it.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

stuber said:


> I've seen no evidence that UBER will limit the supply of drivers. They have closed off the incoming drivers for certain tiers in certain markets. Black, for instance, is currently closed where I work. It's not clear why.
> 
> Ultimately though, I feel that UBER's vision is for massive saturation. They want a car on every corner, 24/7.
> 
> ...


I think Uber is in this for a very short haul. You and I both know the value of professional drivers, and an over saturation of hobbyists will not fulfil the transportation demands for the millions who still rely on professionals.

My earlier point was that, with EQUAL rules, the pool drains on its own most hobbyists won't pay to play if it's not worth it.


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

Former professional driver (BlackCar in HOU ... 15ish years ago) ... former State Trooper 20ish years ago ... But currently "hobbyist" Uber driver; because frankly my software development gig pays significantly more than I ever made as a professional driver, even though I had a full book of regular clients from Galveston to IAH.

That said, I've secured commercial insurance for my UberSelect car ... and anticipate that I'll drive 10+ hours a week in between software projects. Driving relaxes me ... and thus far, I've picked up 2 software development gigs as a result of driving Uber ... so this is an extension of my software biz.

But I agree that most hobbyists (weekend warriors) will burn out quickly and make way for new hobbyists (or more professional drivers). That said, for traditional taxi companies to stay competitive, they need to deliver a higher-level of service to the tech savvy pax that have adopted Uber/Lyft as their preferred transportation method. Additionally, purely from a taxi driver perspective ... as long as the cab companies are still charging drivers a lease fee for the car and not taking a percentage of the fare (like U/L) ... there really is no incentive for the cab companies to get more fares for the drivers. *based on input from a few friends that still drive for Yellow

Patrons who prefer BlackCar service may experiment with UberSelect; but I think it unlikely that many of them will switch from professional BlackCar service to UberSelect long-term ... as they're not getting the same experience as they expect from BlackCar service. I've taken many a BlackCar in NYC and LA ... and even though I drive a really nice Select car ... given the choice, I'd prefer sitting in the back of a BlackCar heading to my biz meetings.

just my 2¢ ... on that note ... gotta prep for a meeting


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## NOVA yuppie (Oct 17, 2014)

Txchick said:


> Oh look another new member posting from Virginia...do you drive or did you in the past or just like to drop in on Rideshare forums & spout??


Well you laid on the snark pretty thick but I don't want to start a fight here. Yes I am in Virginia and I am a driver, I drive on the nights and weekends to make ends meet. Although I don't have the experience is most of the posters in this forum, I am a driver nonetheless just like everyone else here.

I don't mean any disrespect however I am expressing my Opinion on this forum. This particular topic touched one of my nerves as I can see the writing on the wall that this is just another excuse for this company to pull its losses and leave, which will leave me out to find another part-time job which I don't want to do.

Thanks for allowIng me to express my opinion on this forum.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Sacto Burbs said:


> You're an entertaining troll I must say.
> 
> Hey I believe in the free market. If I was a taxi driver and somebody muscled in on my territory I would do everything within my power to crush them. I think the stickers on those cars in Amsterdam intending to intimidate are a great idea. Capitalism is a nasty bloody business. The free market takes no prisoners. Freedom is the freedom to crush other people without anybody making out sound.
> 
> You still want to get in my car?


let me clear up one thing quickly.... i do not advocate "capitalism" nor "free markets." i know this will mean nothing to you but i am a paleo-conservative. i support free enterprise and small limited govt. if it were my call i would put tariffs on all imported goods from communist markets. i would enforce current anti-trust laws that are basically laughed at now. i would also cut off all immigration and h1b visas immediately until we have full employment. i would bring home our troops and have them actually defend us and our borders.

i believe in America First, maybe 1 in a 100 on this board would realize that within this school of thought is the answer to wage issues current drivers have now. i would open up the insurance markets in this country and sue them for collusion. have you checked out commercial ins costs lately? they are artificially high.

what you and chick1cabbie want is to force rates higher and principles be damned. what made this country and economy great were these fundamental principles. you both have mob mentalities and it's about lining your pocketbooks first and not sacrificing anything for your country. that is what got us into this mess in the first place. i actually used to care about people like you but after being disappointed 98% of the time i've found it better to wash my hands of the lot of you after the first sign of sottishness.

you all can not save yourselves nor do you want real assistance/solutions. not once have i defended any specific company here but instead specific principles (in doing so named a certain co.). i have corrected chick1cabbie's misinformation at times but not because i wanted to defend the specific company involved.

lastly, let me say this: you guys are going to lose and this is not the business for you. the VC money backing the biggest players in this game are infinitely smarter than you and have already war gamed everything you guys can imagine. i know them and have fought them on a much larger scale... to them this is child's play because they won before they started. the only way to make money as a driver right now and in the near term is to drastically cut your costs. i've read a few on here that are smart enough to make a living at it but you aren't one of them. go to walmart or target right now and take comfort that you have made the wise choice. you give up freedom for security and that will scale for you in a nice up trend for the next 50 yrs.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> the only way to make money as a driver right now and in the near term is to drastically cut your costs.


You've got that right!

The customers that build Uber into what it is today are going to turn on Uber tomorrow when that 2001 Ford Focus with 250,000 miles and being held together with duct tape shows up on their next request. They didn't love Uber better than cabs because Uber was cheap.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

stuber said:


> Your comment gets at the crux of the matter.
> Some drivers WANT limits on how many drivers can work a given market. Others want no limits. This latter view is the UBER position.
> 
> Every profession in every industry tries to limit the competition. It's human nature. And human nature plays a part in all markets. Free markets are largely a fantasy.


i don't really advocate free markets especially on a global level... i support free enterprise. i support healthy competition and not artificial support of poor business models.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Rubyson&sme said:


> Sacto Burbs my friend, Unfortunately, in truth, there is no such thing as a "successful model" of independent contractor use. Many have tried, all have failed. Why? It is a two sided tax dodge with a powerful side and near helpless hopeless side. With both sides pointing at the other to take responsibility for the host of the expenses and taxes while the other reaps most of the profits. The more powerful side always claims there position is correct, but, despite how much they spend to say it isn't what is, it still is exactly what it is...a tax dodge. And the Taxman and The Grim Reaper always get their due... A Rubela Lament.


tax dodge? which tax? cause i can tell you right now drivers are paying plenty of taxes, maybe just not in an obvious way. can you explain the "dodge" part?


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> i don't really advocate free markets especially on a global level... i support free enterprise. i support healthy competition and not artificial support of poor business models.


Over saturation is not healthy competition. Four ice cream stores all on the same street corner is not healthy for the store owners, the consumers nor the economy. It's great for the ice cream distributors though.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> Over saturation is not healthy competition. Four ice cream stores all on the same street corner is not healthy for the store owners, the consumers nor the economy. It's great for the ice cream distributors though.


then seriously consider moving to a communist paradise like russia, china or cuba... they will embrace your ideology. as for me and my ilk we recognize that 4 is ridiculous and the ones that came in after the first two better have a solid edge. 2.5 will go out of business leaving the one and a half that provides the best service and product (value) will be the one(s) that survive. (statistically speaking and i am being way too generous to that .5 store)

THIS IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CONSUMER!!!! this is what made our country great before the progressives took over the sheeples' brains.

there are a few on here that are successful regardless of the low rates..... they will be successful in anything they do.


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## Rubyson&sme (Dec 1, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> tax dodge? which tax? cause i can tell you right now drivers are paying plenty of taxes, maybe just not in an obvious way. can you explain the "dodge" part?


The ride share app cos. do not have to own vehicles, maintain them, fuel them, insure them (directly), pay fees for them or any of the other associated expenses of having a fleet of cars. They do not have to pay any costs of employing drivers, managers, staff to support all that and yes be responsible to pay the taxes for having to have an employed workforce for this business. For all the costs associated with being a ride service provider, with all those expenses they would have to pay social security, medicare, business income taxes, at all levels of government. You seem quite confused by what my comment is about. I'm really quite surprised you even asked? Maybe you should read it again...


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Mr @Rideshare Patriot,
First of all, learn to capitalise the beginning of your sentences and the personal pronoun "I". Your failure to do so exemplifies your lack of sophistication. 
Secondly, my username is @chi1cabby, not chick1cabby. Perhaps that was intentional on your part, as you tend to trade in insults with those you disagree with.


Rideshare Patriot said:


> i have corrected chick1cabbie's misinformation at times


Thirdly, please cite a single post that's "misinformation", let alone where you've corrected me.
*mis·in·for·ma·tion*
*false or inaccurate information, especially that which is deliberately intended to deceive.*
(A cab driver does not get to be a top member @uberpeople.net by dealing in falsehoods, insults & attacks. He achieves that by gaining respect as a trusted member of the community.)

I will leave aside the jingoistic, stilted, pedestrian, self-important, often contradictory assertions of your post, because frankly they are not worthy of a debate.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Rubyson&sme said:


> The ride share app cos. do not have to own vehicles, maintain them, fuel them, insure them (directly), pay fees for them or any of the other associated expenses of having a fleet of cars. They do not have to pay any costs of employing drivers, managers, staff to support all that and yes be responsible to pay the taxes for having to have an employed workforce for this business. For all the costs associated with being a ride service provider, with all those expenses they would have to pay social security, medicare, business income taxes, at all levels of government. You seem quite confused by what my comment is about. I'm really quite surprised you even asked? Maybe you should read it again...


nah.. just wanted to make you clarify the statement. all additional "costs" including your "taxes" will be accounted for one way or another taken from the customer and you. oh.. and then there will be less jobs further adding to the driver supply glut. employees will have zero leverage and be at the mercy of their nice new bosses.


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## Ziggy (Feb 27, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> Over saturation is not healthy competition. Four ice cream stores all on the same street corner is not healthy for the store owners, the consumers nor the economy. It's great for the ice cream distributors though.


Just talk to any cab driver that leases his cab from his cab company ... in Houston Hobby airport ... the taxi lot holds at least 50 cabs; the place is always full and as many drivers will tell you they might sit there for hours waiting for a trip ... but the cab company still gets paid the lease fee regardless if the driver gets any fares.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

chi1cabby said:


> Mr @Rideshare Patriot,
> First of all, learn to capitalise the beginning of your sentences and the personal pronoun "I". Your failure to do so exemplifies your lack of sophistication.
> Secondly, my username is @chi1cabby, not chick1cabby. Perhaps that was intentional on your part, as you tend to trade in insults with those you disagree with.
> 
> ...


LOL @ chick1cabbie whining about name calling when she started it. too funny.


----------



## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Ziggy said:


> Just talk to any cab driver that leases his cab from his cab company ... in Houston Hobby airport ... the taxi lot holds at least 50 cabs; the place is always full and as many drivers will tell you they might sit there for hours waiting for a trip ... but the cab company still gets paid the lease fee regardless if the driver gets any fares.


good thing the govt keeps that steady flow of immigrants or the mafia cab owners couldn't do this.


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## Rubyson&sme (Dec 1, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> nah.. just wanted to make you clarify the statement. all additional "costs" including your "taxes" will be accounted for one way or another taken from the customer and you. oh.. and then there will be less jobs further adding to the driver supply glut. employees will have zero leverage and be at the mercy of their nice new bosses.


The only clarity problem is yours. I always wondered why they call them trolls, thanks for being the definitive example, bub.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> LOL @ chick1cabbie whining about name calling when she started it. too funny.


@Rideshare Patriot, Thank you for just confirming your status as the new resident troll on @uberpeople.net.
Your posts will no longer be deemed worthy of a response in my estimation.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

chi1cabby said:


> Thank you for just confirming your status as the new resident troll on @uberpeople.net.
> Your posts will no longer be deemed worthy of a response in my estimation.


i guess you realized you started the name calling... then tried to call me out for it? hahahaha


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## Chip Dawg (Jul 27, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> I think Uber is in this for a very short haul. You and I both know the value of professional drivers, and an over saturation of hobbyists will not fulfil the transportation demands for the millions who still rely on professionals.
> 
> My earlier point was that, with EQUAL rules, the pool drains on its own most hobbyists won't pay to play if it's not worth it.


Don't fool yourself. One is a "professional" after fulfilling state or city regs. That does not make you a better driver than a hobbyist.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Rubyson&sme said:


> The only clarity problem is yours. I always wondered why they call them trolls, thanks for being the definitive example, bub.


that our opinions differ does not make either of us a troll. grow up.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> then seriously consider moving to a communist paradise like russia, china or cuba... they will embrace your ideology.


Throwing out red herrings is not helping you establish any credibility here.



> as for me and my ilk we recognize that 4 is ridiculous


Yet you can't recognize that what Uber is doing is ridiculous.



> and the ones that came in after the first two better have a solid edge. 2.5 will go out of business leaving the one and a half that provides the best service and product (value) will be the one(s) that survive. (statistically speaking and i am being way too generous to that .5 store)


The one that is in the best financial position will survive. They just have to wait for the others to run out of cash, even if they have a better product. This is why Uber is raising a bunch of cash and driving rates down to pennies per mile.... to wait it out until Lyft and taxis just die off.



> THIS IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CONSUMER!!!!


If it's predatory pricing, then no it's not in the best interests of consumers. Get educated on the impact of "Predatory Pricing" on the economy and the consumer, and then we'll talk.



> this is what made our country great before the progressives took over the sheeples' brains.


There are a lot of things that made our country great, including limiting and regulating businesses who would have turned it to shit if they weren't limited and regulated.



> there are a few on here that are successful regardless of the low rates..... they will be successful in anything they do.


After the rate cut, I was very successful. Not because I drove for low rates though. It was because gaming Uber's guarantee was very profitable. I produced this payout below only driving for 6 hours. The other 12 hours I was at home relaxing. So 6 hours of work produced around $50 an hour for me, and I only put around 100 miles on my car, so the cost was only $32. That being said, no one driving for $0.75 is succeeding. They're being exploited.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> Throwing out red herrings is not helping you establish any credibility here.
> 
> Yet you can't recognize that what Uber is doing is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


it sounds like you sort of support free enterprise to a certain extent and don't know it.

and i am against predatory lending.... but pricing? i'd rather see the markets work it out. in order to do so we have to reverse the trend in this country and start enforcing anti-trust laws and weed out anti-competition measures. what drivers on here want is for the govt to intrude and force it.... that's a recipe for failure.

and i am no fan of some of the strategies currently employed by the tnc's... don't assume that i am. few on here see the answers but i applaud you for your success. should we have you subsidize sacto with your income?

regarding rules and regs.... i have said this ad nauseam, i am for small limited govt. NOT ANARCHY!!! i favor small businesses over large corporations. therefore i hate the barrier to entry small businesses face when trying to compete with large corps. and that is just the start of the headaches.... try pissing off the epa.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> it sounds like you sort of support free enterprise to a certain extent and don't know it.


I've been a republican all my life. It's YOU that is making false assumptions about me, such as I don't support free enterprise. Of course I do. But I'm not ignorant of it's flaws that need to be regulated to protect society from them.



> and i am against predatory lending.... but pricing? i'd rather see the markets work it out. in order to do so we have to reverse the trend in this country and start enforcing anti-trust laws and weed out anti-competition measures. what drivers on here want is for the govt to intrude and force it.... that's a recipe for failure.


What do you mean by "but pricing"? Are you saying you are NOT against predatory pricing? That either means 1) you know what it is and are an idiot for not being against it; or 2) you don't know what it is and are participating in this conversation from a position of ignorance. Idiot or ignorant?... either way I'm wasting my time with you.



> and i am no fan of some of the strategies currently employed by the tnc's... don't assume that i am. few on here see the answers but i applaud you for your success. should we have you subsidize sacto with your income?


A lot of people are subsidized by my income. I paid over $20,000 in income tax to the federal government alone last year. It doesn't bother me. I'm glad to do it. Free enterprise is a game, and money is the score. At a high level, it's no different than playing Pac man or Euchre. Some things you do make your score go up, and some things don't. I don't subscribe to the ideal that everyone born has an equal chance of succeeding in the game of capitalism and free enterprise. That doesn't mean I want socialism. It means I recognize some people are born to fail at the game of capitalism just as easily as some are born to fail at the game of baseball, or the game of monopoly. I am republican, and always have been, but I'm sickened by fellow conservatives and republicans who believe people who fail can only blame themselves. That's BS. These people didn't chose to be born. They didn't chose to have a mind wired in a way that makes the game of capitalism very hard for them. They're essentially born to fail. So yes, I believe they deserve to be subsidized. And as one succeeding in the game of capitalism I'm more than happy to contribute to their subsidization.



> regarding rules and regs.... i have said this ad nauseam, i am for small limited govt. NOT ANARCHY!!! i favor small businesses over large corporations. therefore i hate the barrier to entry small businesses face when trying to compete with large corps. and that is just the start of the headaches.... try pissing off the epa.


Uber has ZERO intent of being small.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> I've been a republican all my life. It's YOU that is making false assumptions about me, such as I don't support free enterprise. Of course I do. But I'm not ignorant of it's flaws that need to be regulated to protect society from them.
> 
> What do you mean by "but pricing"? Are you saying you are NOT against predatory pricing? That either means 1) you know what it is and are an idiot for not being against it; or 2) you don't know what it is and are participating in this conversation from a position of ignorance. Idiot or ignorant?... either way I'm wasting my time with you.
> 
> ...


i never commented on their intent.

and as far as you labeling yourself a republican let me just say i am saddened. what a corrupt filthy party that is... not saying i won't vote for one of their candidates if given no other choice, but never ever would i label myself after these crooks. they are the archetypes of organized crime. (so are the dems)

and i didn't mean subsidize sacto via taxes... another wrong assumption you made... i mean set aside part of your uber income and contribute to her's directly, i'm thinking 20 cents a mile. my comment had zero to do with social programs.

as far as predatory pricing goes i have addressed how to handle it vis-a-vis my many posts regarding oligopolies... not going to regurgitate that now. but don't be so simple.


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## elelegido (Sep 24, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> what you and chick1cabbie want is to force rates higher and principles be damned.


 LOL Rideshare Parrot!


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## ubershiza (Jan 19, 2015)

If workers can get a union to represent they'll have some power. First thing is to convince the world uber is not just an app and then for workers to become recognized as employees.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

elelegido said:


> LOL Rideshare Parrot!


LOL @ El ***** !!! hahahahahahah


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Chip Dawg said:


> Don't fool yourself. One is a "professional" after fulfilling state or city regs. That does not make you a better driver than a hobbyist.


Umm. No, we were discussing those who do it as a profession versus hobbyists. Try to keep up.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

ubershiza said:


> If workers can get a union to represent they'll have some power. First thing is to convince the world uber is not just an app and then for workers to become recognized as employees.


hell yes, let's start a union!!! i bet we can get the Communist USA Party to put us in contact with funders.... they will surely help us workers.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> i never commented on their intent.
> 
> and as far as you labeling yourself a republican let me just say i am saddened. what a corrupt filthy party that is... not saying i won't vote for one of their candidates if given no other choice, but never ever would i label myself after these crooks. they are the archetypes of organized crime. (so are the dems)
> 
> ...


Yes, I've read how you would handle predatory pricing. You have theory. I'll give you that. You lack pragmatism though, and that's the problem.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> Yes, I've read how you would handle predatory pricing. You have theory. I'll give you that. You lack pragmatism though, and that's the problem.


nah... i've just been there done that. i know the players and i know what lengths they go to to win. but hey.. you understand what it takes to make money right now.. keep doing it. the bright side is you only have to stay ahead of (outsmart) 80% of these drivers... like shooting fish in a barrel.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> nah... i've just been there done that. i know the players and i know what lengths they go to to win. but hey.. you understand what it takes to make money right now.. keep doing it. the bright side is you only have to stay ahead of (outsmart) 80% of these drivers... like shooting fish in a barrel.


I haven't driven for Uber in weeks. Yes, I can very easily do it in ways that make me decent profit. But Uber made it very clear to me that they don't like me, or any other driver, doing those ways. They desire all drivers to do it their way or "BE DEACTIVATED!!!" And at the rates most cities are at now, the Uber way is exploitation. Or as we call it around here, UberXploitation. So only poor, desperate, unemployed, and dumb drivers are doing it, because those are the people in society easily exploited. It's the backbone of "Being Uber".


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> I haven't driven for Uber in weeks. Yes, I can very easily do it in ways that make me decent profit. But Uber made it very clear to me that they don't like me, or any other driver, doing those ways. They desire all drivers to do it their way or "BE DEACTIVATED!!!" And at the rates most cities are at now, the Uber way is exploitation. Or as we call it around here, UberXploitation. So only poor, desperate, unemployed, and dumb drivers are doing it, because those are the people in society easily exploited. It's the backbone of "Being Uber".


to be honest, i am not a fan of the guarantees. i think most on here should go work for the cab companies since they defend them so much.


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## LADriver (Aug 28, 2014)

pengduck said:


> First they would have to pay minimum wage for all the hours you have already worked. Then they would have to pay the SS and FICA. This means whatever you paid in would be refunded to you. At this point they would have to make us either employees or true independent contractors. This means we would have a bigger say in the fares that are charged.


Independent contractors status would lead to a UNION. The United Brotherhood of Employed Ride Sharing Industry Communist Krazies or UBERSICK Local 666.

And the Union would be able to negotiate rates just like in any other labor intensive industry. Same thing is going on with the short haul truckers out of the ports of L.A. and Long Beach. Their case lead to the truckers (who were covering all their cost) to be legally recognized as employees.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

LADriver said:


> Independent contractors status would lead to a UNION. The United Brotherhood of Employed Ride Sharing Industry Communist Krazies or UBERSICK Local 666.
> 
> And the Union would be able to negotiate rates just like in any other labor intensive industry. Same thing is going on with the short haul truckers out of the ports of L.A. and Long Beach. Their case lead to the truckers (who were covering all their cost) to be legally recognized as employees.


If history is any indication of the future, then this is spot on. Uber's technology is innovative, but its approach to workers is archaic. Travis is doing nothing more than trying to turn the clock back a few centuries when employers had zero responsibilities in the eyes of the law.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Stop feeding the troll. Seriously put him on ignore and see whether there's any reasonable conversation on this thread, you can unignore him later


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Sacto Burbs said:


> Stop feeding the troll. Seriously put him on ignore and see whether there's any reasonable conversation on this thread, and ignore him later
> 
> China is a communist country?
> 
> ...


nice edit sacto... but i caught it. let me answer...

no.. i don't get out of the country much, but i may do some traveling soon. can you please guide me as to where in the free capitalist state of china i should travel? LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... hahahahahaha.. too funny.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> nice edit sacto... but i caught it. let me answer...
> 
> no.. i don't get out of the country much, but i may do some traveling soon. can you please guide me as to where in the free capitalist state of china i should travel? LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... hahahahahaha.. too funny.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> Stop feeding the troll. Seriously put him on ignore and see whether there's any reasonable conversation on this thread, you can unignore him later





chi1cabby said:


> @Rideshare Patriot, Thank you for just confirming your status as the new resident troll on @uberpeople.net.
> Your posts will no longer be deemed worthy of a response in my estimation.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

UberHammer said:


>


i was mocking her attempt at bashing me ... that she quickly edited. surprised you didn't get that.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

says chick1cabby who started the name calling. if you don't like it.. don't initiate it.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

@Rideshare Patriot what was your military service? I would like to thank you


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

Sacto Burbs said:


> @Rideshare Patriot what was your military service? I would like to thank you


were you deactivated again?


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> @Rideshare Patriot what was your military service? I would like to thank you


Patriotism is usually the refuge of the scoundrel. He is the man who talks the loudest.
Mark Twain
- Education and Citizenship speech, 5/14/1908


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

chi1cabby said:


> Patriotism is usually the refuge of the scoundrel. He is the man who talks the loudest.
> Mark Twain
> - Education and Citizenship speech, 5/14/1908
> View attachment 5874


_"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time," said Twain, "and your government when it deserves it."_


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

_"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." _

― Mark Twain


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> LOL @ chick1cabbie whining about name calling when she started it. too funny.


Show some basic respect. Chi1 has contributed mightily to the forum. You have not. Your remarks are offensive to all of us who enjoy a free exchange of ideas.


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## Rideshare Patriot (Mar 11, 2015)

stuber said:


> Show some basic respect. Chi1 has contributed mightily to the forum. You have not. Your remarks are offensive to all of us who enjoy a free exchange of ideas.


i didn't start it but don't reply to me in the future. you are now on ignore.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2015)

cool, maybe this will help drivers get a better deal for all the risk they are taking for this less than average paying gig. Calling us an IC to go through all their loop holes is ****ed.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rideshare Patriot said:


> i was mocking her attempt at bashing me ... that she quickly edited. surprised you didn't get that.


I got it. It just wasn't funny. Sorry.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Hong Kong. China.

Shenzhen, China

Macau, China - which last year had a gambling industry 7 times bigger than Las Vegas.

China, a communist country ? Snicker.


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## UberBlackDriverLA (Aug 21, 2014)

I'm not sure what everybody is worried about. Nobody on this forum will be driving for TNCs by the time these lawsuits are ultimately settled.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Ziggy said:


> Former professional driver (BlackCar in HOU ... 15ish years ago) ... former State Trooper 20ish years ago ... But currently "hobbyist" Uber driver; because frankly my software development gig pays significantly more than I ever made as a professional driver, even though I had a full book of regular clients from Galveston to IAH.
> 
> That said, I've secured commercial insurance for my UberSelect car ... and anticipate that I'll drive 10+ hours a week in between software projects. Driving relaxes me ... and thus far, I've picked up 2 software development gigs as a result of driving Uber ... so this is an extension of my software biz.
> 
> ...


Where did you get commercial insurance and what was the cost if you don't mind me asking?


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

NOVA yuppie said:


> Well you laid on the snark pretty thick but I don't want to start a fight here. Yes I am in Virginia and I am a driver, I drive on the nights and weekends to make ends meet. Although I don't have the experience is most of the posters in this forum, I am a driver nonetheless just like everyone else here.
> 
> I don't mean any disrespect however I am expressing my Opinion on this forum. This particular topic touched one of my nerves as I can see the writing on the wall that this is just another excuse for this company to pull its losses and leave, which will leave me out to find another part-time job which I don't want to do.
> 
> Thanks for allowIng me to express my opinion on this forum.


The reason the lawsuit was filed in California was Uber's corporate office is located in California.


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## Txchick (Nov 25, 2014)

stuber said:


> Your comment gets at the crux of the matter.
> Some drivers WANT limits on how many drivers can work a given market. Others want no limits. This latter view is the UBER position.
> 
> Every profession in every industry tries to limit the competition. It's human nature. And human nature plays a part in all markets. Free markets are largely a fantasy.


Free markets...illusion.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Ziggy said:


> That said, for traditional taxi companies to stay competitive, they need to deliver a higher-level of service to the tech savvy pax that have adopted Uber/Lyft as their preferred transportation method.


The Nyc Tlc is working on an app to hail yellow taxis, and not Ubertaxi. I watched a Tlc meeting on local TV here in NYC, one thing they said was a service charge of a dollar a ride would be a rip off because storage of data is dirt cheap. Uber taxi has a $2 surcharge if I'm not mistaken.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> The Nyc Tlc is working on an app to hail yellow taxis, and not Ubertaxi. I watched a Tlc meeting on local TV here in NYC, one thing they said was a service charge of a dollar a ride would be a rip off because storage of data is dirt cheap. Uber taxi has a $2 surcharge if I'm not mistaken.


They should open the app and make it available to all licensed cars including UBER drivers (commercial). This would hurt UBER more because it would pull both money and available UBER cars from their system. The only way to beat UBER is to take away their drivers.


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

stuber said:


> They should open the app and make it available to all licensed cars including UBER drivers (commercial). This would hurt UBER more because it would pull both money and available UBER cars from their system. The only way to beat UBER is to take away their drivers.


It takes forever for the NYC TLC to get anything done. Though I doubt that the app would include Tlc licensed Uber cars.


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## Lidman (Nov 13, 2014)

Sacto Burbs said:


> It is a game. Play on.


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## Montgomery (Jan 7, 2015)

Long time Nyc cab driver said:


> The Nyc Tlc is working on an app to hail yellow taxis, and not Ubertaxi. I watched a Tlc meeting on local TV here in NYC, one thing they said was a service charge of a dollar a ride would be a rip off because storage of data is dirt cheap. Uber taxi has a $2 surcharge if I'm not mistaken.


I've noticed that some of the Uptown livery/black car bases have their own app now. You can tell they all paid the same company and their app just look the same for all of them. drivers go around with a small tablet. I'm gonna try it at some point just to see how it works.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Montgomery said:


> I've noticed that some of the Uptown livery/black car bases have their own app now. You can tell they all paid the same company and their app just look the same for all of them. drivers go around with a small tablet. I'm gonna try it at some point just to see how it works.


Ideally, all these little apps the uptown black car bases are using ARE the same. And that they are all networked together so that any car from any of the companies can take any customer. Otherwise, if they're all separate, they'll never get anywhere. You can only beat UBER by having more drivers. Scale is what makes UBER work. Their technology is nothing special. The future of this, IMO, is these local apps networked with many many other local apps. There's a software company in Chicago working on this right now. I'll find the name. Standby.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

stuber said:


> Ideally, all these little apps the uptown black car bases are using ARE the same. And that they are all networked together so that any car from any of the companies can take any customer. Otherwise, if they're all separate, they'll never get anywhere. You can only beat UBER by having more drivers. Scale is what makes UBER work. Their technology is nothing special. The future of this, IMO, is these local apps networked with many many other local apps. There's a software company in Chicago working on this right now. I'll find the name. Standby.


TripThru is the name. There's probably others working on this too.


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## lu181 (Nov 3, 2014)

If uber were truly a technology company they would just license out their own tech to all taxi and black car companies and would get a cut of the whole industry. 3-5 percent of every fare of every company that is a real 40 billion dollar company.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

Precisely. An IPO for UBER will be far easier if they were to scrap the entire business model and go in that direction.


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

lu181 said:


> If uber were truly a technology company they would just license out their own tech to all taxi and black car companies and would get a cut of the whole industry. 3-5 percent of every fare of every company that is a real 40 billion dollar company.


There's something like a trillion dollars in for hire transportation business annually, worldwide. If UBER was collecting .05% on half that, their take would be... shit, my calculator doesn't do that. It's a lot.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Saw that Lyft and Uber are now taking some more legal heat in Cali. because their apps haven't been cleared by state weights and measures testing system.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

*Uber And Lyft In California: How To Use Employment Law To Wreck An Industry*

Richard Epstein, Contributor
The Libertarian 
@RichardAEpstein on Twitter

*http://www.forbes.com/sites/richard...w-to-use-employment-law-to-wreck-an-industry/*


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

stuber said:


> I've seen no evidence that UBER will limit the supply of drivers. They have closed off the incoming drivers for certain tiers in certain markets. Black, for instance, is currently closed where I work. It's not clear why.
> 
> Ultimately though, I feel that UBER's vision is for massive saturation. They want a car on every corner, 24/7.
> 
> ...


When an experienced, discerning observant corporate gets into a Black car and notes clear evidence that he has just entered someone's Bedroom/Living Room/Office then the UBER Black experience suddenly takes on a whole new relevance to the world that Corporate warrior plays/fights in.

A reality that his/her business can only have success, if it subjects it's workforce to unprotected inconsistent returns in the same way that has Uber Drivers camping in cars does frighten fair & ethical Business People.

Over saturated Black markets, where some Driver's have been captured by the falsehoods of Uber promises is damaging UBER's image and the client "Experience".


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Employment law enforcement ruins industry. Hmm … Where have I heard that before? The same people who have been fighting against the minimum wage since it was first introduced in America. All wealth comes from Labour. Someone else's labor. You may have a brain, but without my back, you are not going to get wealthy.

... Ask my tenants ...


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## Long time Nyc cab driver (Dec 12, 2014)

Montgomery said:


> I've noticed that some of the Uptown livery/black car bases have their own app now. You can tell they all paid the same company and their app just look the same for all of them. drivers go around with a small tablet. I'm gonna try it at some point just to see how it works.


A lot of limousine companies use tablets for dispatching, I haven't yet worked for a company that uses it. DavEl/Boston Coach uses it. The TLC hearing I watched they also mentioned that Uber grays out the available UBERT's.


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

Montgomery said:


> The one thing I don't like about this is if drivers are ultimately classified as employees then Uber/Lyft can then set hours and schedules for drivers, which throws away the flexibility that got me and who knows how many others people into this in the first place.


Sure, it would do just that, but........
No, that will never happen. I'll tell you what will happen, should drivers be classified as employees. See, I remember a time when cabbies were employees, with withholding, W2s, workers' comp, the works. All the taxi companies that did that either went out of business, or went to leasing cabs and the independent contractor route. Fact is, it is just not profitable in this day and age for a big taxi company or any kind of transportation company to pay wages, payroll tax and the cost of payroll administration, worker's comp, etc., and so the long and short of it is that if this is the final ruling, it will be the END of rideshares as we know it. That's fine with me, it will mean more money for UberBlack/SUV ( it won't effect livery, since that model has been in existence for many decades ) and taxis ( since I'm UberSUV, i'd love this ruling, but feel sorry for all rideshare drivers losing their gig --- but, on the other hand, maybe they will find a way to make it work, I just don't know ).


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## LADriver (Aug 28, 2014)

NOVA yuppie said:


> This lawsuit is going to f$&ck everything up. Leave it up to a holes from California to start some frivolous lawsuit. Why can't they just leave everything alone and let us earn some money. If they go through with this by having to pay out all the stupid benefits the cost of an Uber ride will skyrocket And wont be competitive against the cabs. I tell you what I would do if I were Uber And Faced The situation directly, I would pull my chocks and cash out my $40 billion and say screw you, and personally I wouldn't blame them if they did.


The A-Hole lawyer that filed this case is from BOSTON. Look it up on this forum.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

LADriver said:


> The A-Hole lawyer that filed this case is from BOSTON. Look it up on this forum.


No, you would start treating us like REAL independent contractors and follow the Sidecar model.


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## DrJeecheroo (Feb 12, 2015)

LADriver said:


> The A-Hole lawyer that filed this case is from BOSTON. Look it up on this forum.


That so-called A-hole lawyer is only bringing out the truth in what Uber really represents. Another Travis-shill on here.


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