# PT relevance?



## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

I've been driving Uber for about a month and gotten to know those ropes, but just started Lyft yesterday. I was happy to see some areas PT for Lyft tonight (it made sense, around bars at that special golden money making time). I drove to these areas , with the PT enduring for well over 30 min without getting a single pax. Is this typical of PT on Lyft, or just a case of bad luck? Typically, if I drive into an Uber surge, I'll get a ping pretty quickly.

Also... on Lyft, how does one check where other lyft cars are, since the driver and passenger apps are one in the same? I suspect it could have been oversaturation of the area (despite driving in PT areas almost every time they showed up, I did not get one single ride as PT... but lots of normal ones).


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## Stan07 (Oct 10, 2016)

There is no surge on Lyft. 1 in 100 rides, that's all. 

Lyft doesn't want you to see other drivers, that's why it's hidden.
To see the other drivers you need to go offline, hit your picture on the top left, then hit the switch rider. That's the only way you can see.


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

hmmm, that's a major downside of Lyft then. Sometimes you have to check that out on Uber to see why you aren't getting anything. It makes no sense for there to be too many cars to service an area beyond the demand. I don't even understand Lyft's incentive. When drivers make more, Lyft makes more. WOuldn't they WANT drivers to spread out in a city to make availability more widespread instead of every single driver scrambling for 2 city blocks while people in outlying areas have less cars? Are there any third party apps that could help with this issue, or is flying blind just the way you have to do lyft? (I did get some really good fares on lyft tonight, none of them PT though... even though I drove through PT areas quite a lot. If I had been driving through a 2x uber surge like that, I would have gotten several at that rate. Could only get Uber pings in those areas at those times though there were zero surges while PT was happening).


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## Stan07 (Oct 10, 2016)

Lyft is a not a regular type of business, it's a copycat. Don't waste your time with unnecessary PT/incentive anaylsis. Try to master your Uber game, that's the only way to make money and use Lyft as a substitute.


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Stan07 said:


> Lyft is a not a regular type of business, it's a copycat. Don't waste your time with unnecessary PT/incentive anaylsis. Try to master your Uber game, that's the only way to make money and use Lyft as a substitute.


I see


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

there's TONS of surge on Lyft...in some markers.

Drivers and surge can be viewed via "pax app" on another phone. Account has to be separate though, if you use the same one both phones will just mirror each other, and going into pax mode on one will log the other phone off



Stan07 said:


> There is no surge on Lyft. 1 in 100 rides, that's all.
> 
> Lyft doesn't want you to see other drivers, that's why it's hidden.
> To see the other drivers you need to go offline, hit your picture on the top left, then hit the switch rider. That's the only way you can see.


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

I've done all-surge-only Lyft days in Los Angeles before


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## Drivincrazy (Feb 14, 2016)

In Las Vegas, catching PT is getting more slippery every day. One minute change intervals is so brief that it is not worth chasing. I advise to head in the general direction, but do not rush...never worth a citation or accident.


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

Drivincrazy said:


> In Las Vegas, catching PT is getting more slippery every day. One minute change intervals is so brief that it is not worth chasing. I advise to head in the general direction, but do not rush...never worth a citation or accident.


I have yet to see a SINGLE case of large but un-forecast-able PT area.... don't rush, make note and show up next time


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## Jimmy Bernat (Apr 12, 2016)

If you're going to do Lyft you need two phones or find a apk of lyft beta (if youre on android) 
If you have two phones you can install lyft on both, I have a rider and driver account. I have my rider account on the other phone so I can see where cars are and during surge I simply open my rider one put in the pick up address to confirm its a surge ride. If it's not cancel 

And yeah being in a surge or pt area with no requests is very common. Riders are smart and will usually wait it out or on lyft walk a block over where it's not pt


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## MiddleClassedOut (Jun 11, 2015)

I've posted this everywhere already, including Reddit but one more time. I have no problem getting Prime Time WHEN it's possible:

First, you must understand that Lyft Prime Time is based far more on supply than Uber is. That's because Uber's express purpose with surge fares is to meet their goal of having a car available with an ETA of 5 minutes or less in urban areas. So even if there is plenty of supply, Uber surge rates will rise to meet demand. But this is not good for you as a driver, as passengers see plenty of cars and don't understand the surge and will wait and wait. Lyft Prime Time happens in 25% increments when there are more requests than cars in a small radius (we don't know how big, probably 1/4-1/2 mile.) I've tested this myself, just trust me, it's true. 3 requests and 2 cars = instant 25% Prime Time on that block. Lyft's Prime Time reflects true scarcity, and my experience is that this causes pax to pay more Prime Time - they can see there aren't many cars!

YOUR VEHICLE IS PART OF LYFT SUPPLY. There are still fewer Lyft drivers than Uber, so this is ultra-important. 

Rules of Prime Time

1) Only chase the surge if you know why it's happening and have a guess how long it will last. Ie., a concert letting out.
2) If you chase the surge, GO OFFLINE immediately to drive into it. Your car is part of the supply, the system detects cars approaching the surge area and will start lowering the rate in 25% increments as cars approach. Additionally you will get non-Prime Time requests if you're still online. Sometimes demand is super high and this will prolong the surge. Every time a pax accepts a Prime Time, it extends the surge. You can be assured on Lyft that if you see 150%, someone has already paid 100% (I'm not 100% certain on this, but it definitely seems like it. Requests that get cancelled count. I've seen people who didn't know how to use the app cancel multiple times and give themselves Prime Time!)
3) Best practice is to have a second device with a Lyft passenger account open. You need to be able to check the zones. As Lyft doesn't show us what area is actually highest, you need the pax app to check. This can save you from going online in a 50% zone when there's a 150% zone across town. DO NOT GO ONLINE UNTIL YOU PASS THE LAST CAR NEAREST THE PRIME TIME ZONE. If you don't have a second device, just switch the passenger mode. You must be closest car.
4) To optimize earnings, when you get a request, check that location with the passenger app to make sure it's on Prime Time. If it's not or the Prime Time has dropped to 25%, cancel.
5) Prime Time zones can often be seen about to form if you have a passenger account. You can use this to your advantage, if say you know a concert is letting out but not exactly when. If you are diligent in watching the cars, you will see cars quickly disappearing in that area. In my experience Prime Time zones form within 2-3 minutes after this happens.
6) Don't go online too soon. Certain areas of Philadelphia are certainly capable of going on 100% Prime Time or more in bad weather and during the "going out" hours. University City is your hottest spot for this behavior. Use your instincts, if you think it might go higher, it probably will. My biggest mistake in ride share, and one I still make, is getting desperate and going back online TOO SOON. It's better to let it shoot to 200% and go online after it drops to 150% rather than go online at 50% and watch it go to 100% in a minute. Just made this mistake yesterday, for probably the hundredth time.
7) Certain areas pay Prime Time more than others. In my experience, the following areas are best for Prime Time - University City, Fairmount, and NoLibs/Fishtown. Temple and Drexel students wait it out constantly, and will use Line to save money.
8) During Friday rush hour, never stay online in center city. It never surges as high as other areas and you will probably make less than minimum wage, because of the amount of time it takes to get to PAX and the constant cancels. 

I haven't even talked about the 2am surge. Always remember you will blow the guarantees to pieces if you stay offline and wait till Prime Time peaks, usually at 350%-400%. So there is no point to staying online. Just get offline at 1:45am if not earlier, position yourself well, and rake in the money.


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## MiddleClassedOut (Jun 11, 2015)

Also one other thing I should edit into this to make more clear...Canceled requests also boost the Prime Time. So when a driver or passenger cancels and another request comes in shortly after (usually from the same person) that contributes to the surge. I have had multiple passengers complain that drivers have cancelled on them (maybe because they checked the price like I do) and when they re-requested it was now on Prime Time. That is precisely what we want to happen...Some sneaky PAX a block away from the concert should be paying the same price, so make sure you check the price after you accept the request!

The rates aren't fair. But if we all follow these directions and are patient, we can all make more money with Lyft. This is what they get for setting rates at 1984 taxi rates. Remember at $1.10 a mile you are making about $4-5/hr after expenses/depreciation. It looks like you're making money, but, no, Virginia, you are not. You're taking a pay-day loan from your car. The only way to make money is incentives or Prime Time.


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

When Uber surges, I almost always get surging pings. It surges less than Lyft, but it doesn't matter how much the PT % is if it's impossible to get. I've driven right during the bar rush around a couple of busy blocks where half of the downtown core was PT for at least a good 30 min without one single ping. There seems to be no demand figured into PT, only supply. Being far away from PT seems to be the only way to make $ on Lyft. On the map, you should be busy, but hasn't happened even once. Literally never got a single PT fare, though I get some surge pings on Uber literally every day.

That said, in app tipping is great and pax do tip most of the time. Lyft needs to tune PT. It's completely irrelevant if yiu can't get it.


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

This needs to be in bold:

CANCELLATIONS ARE ONE OF THE BIGGEST (OR EVEN -THE- ONLY) CAUSES OF PT RISING



MiddleClassedOut said:


> I've posted this everywhere already, including Reddit but one more time. I have no problem getting Prime Time WHEN it's possible:
> 
> First, you must understand that Lyft Prime Time is based far more on supply than Uber is. That's because Uber's express purpose with surge fares is to meet their goal of having a car available with an ETA of 5 minutes or less in urban areas. So even if there is plenty of supply, Uber surge rates will rise to meet demand. But this is not good for you as a driver, as passengers see plenty of cars and don't understand the surge and will wait and wait. Lyft Prime Time happens in 25% increments when there are more requests than cars in a small radius (we don't know how big, probably 1/4-1/2 mile.) I've tested this myself, just trust me, it's true. 3 requests and 2 cars = instant 25% Prime Time on that block. Lyft's Prime Time reflects true scarcity, and my experience is that this causes pax to pay more Prime Time - they can see there aren't many cars!
> 
> ...


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## MiddleClassedOut (Jun 11, 2015)

Adieu said:


> This needs to be in bold:
> 
> CANCELLATIONS ARE ONE OF THE BIGGEST (OR EVEN -THE- ONLY) CAUSES OF PT RISING


Now that's an interesting thought. I have experimented, but not shown a lot of results...but if you had enough people with 2nd accounts 

Another little tidbit I've noticed...When a car gets called off to a more distant ping, the area it was in sometimes seem susceptible to go on Prime Time...Haven't been able to figure out how to verify this, but feel like I have checked my location once or twice for whatever reason when I got called away, and it has risen...


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Aha. That would make sense. 

I still have yet to get a single PT ride... not ONE. Not even a ping that I've missed. Not even a ping that's canceled. Not a single ping that is above the normal rate. I camped out right smack dab in Belltown Seattle today (down by the waterfront where a ton of people go to drink), amongst all the bars, while the app was telling me it was 200% PT right where my car was... this was when the bars were getting out. Not one ping. I turned on Uber, again... and got the same result as the last time I experimented with this... an instant ping... this time, including surge. In fact, every single time Lyft told me big money was around the corner, I would turn on Uber and get ping city. At one point, I even forgot Lyft was on, and did 30 min of bar rush without Lyft sending me anything.

I'm going to say it again.. I've driven for Lyft for about a week. I have seen constant PT notifications in third party apps. Been at the perfect place, at the perfect time, while the app and third party apps tell me the demand is through the roof, and will not get a single ping. I switched to the driver app, and there were not a lot of cars around the area. I complain all the time about Uber doing social engineering tricks to lure a ton of drivers to one spot with surge, but I've found Lyft is 1,000x worse. If I'm sitting in what is supposedly a 'high demand' area, and there's only one other car there... THat tells me that either literally nobody uses Lyft in Seattle (On the Seattle section, there are some Lyft only drivers, so I doubt that) or that Lyft has set up their system so literally nobody ever gets a PT fare, even when the app is 'painting the town pink.'


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Adieu said:


> I've done all-surge-only Lyft days in Los Angeles before


I have not even got one single PT ride, at the height of the peak hours, in a big city, right next to a place that is visually very busy, and on the app shows is through the roof with demand. There will be maybe 1 or 2 drivers anywhere near me. Is my account screwed up or something? I'm not kidding. I could sit right next to a sports game as it gets out, filled with almost 10,000 people, and Uber will be going crazy with 3x and 4x pings, with tons of successful rides, while Lyft might ping once without any of the PT, even though it shows it in the app. About the only purpose the PT in Lyft has done for me, is to show me where I might be able to pick up some Uber business that isn't quite surging, or will surge. I guess that's a way to make me more money, but I doubt Lyft is in the business of making money for their competition.

Is Lyft completely non-existent in Seattle? I keep seeing people act like it's thriving, but I haven't seen that AT ALL. And then I see Lyft only drivers who claim to be doing well, or even better than on Uber. Are we living in alternative universes? I like Lyft slightly better on the rides I do get btw. It just appears to be useless to use it for anything other than getting extra riders when Uber is slow. I think PT is a myth. A week working, Uber surges for days and still not a single PT ride.


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## Stan07 (Oct 10, 2016)

Lyft has nothing to offer but cheap rides! You just wanna learn hard way.

You sit there because app is telling 200% pm. It's carrot!


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

Lmao! I see some people get it & some people obviously don't. Lol! I've gotten PT rides all the way up to 400% here in San Diego. As some others have stated, Lyft PT is very attainable but it won't fall out of the sky for you the way Uber surge does. There's a bit of a learning curve to it.


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## Havoc (Nov 10, 2016)

Andre Benjamin 6000 said:


> Lmao! I see some people get it & some people obviously don't. Lol! I've gotten PT rides all the way up to 400% here in San Diego. As some others have stated, Lyft PT is very attainable but it won't fall out of the sky for you the way Uber surge does. There's a bit of a learning curve to it.


Let's see it, show us


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

Havoc said:


> Let's see it, show us












Trip came out to about $75.


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

I still have yet to get a single PT ride. I did get an hourly guarantee for this week offered, which looks really nice (yes, I'll do that, thanks). I sat right outside of the Seahawks game, as it got out. Uber surging like crazy and pings coming in left right and center. Lyft was PT like crazy but not a single ping came in (No, I'm not an idiot, who will just sit there with no riders. I was taking all the uber business, but left Lyft on just to test my theory... and sure enough only pings came in with no PT when I was as far away from the PT as poss.) Lyft is still nice to pick up some extra riders, but I'm skeptical about anyone claiming they're doing lots of PT rides. I have literally no idea how to even get one, let alone a lot. AN entire district can be lit up like a pink xmas tree for 30 min and it still doesn't happen... and there def. isn't an oversaturation of lyft drivers from what I can tell. Maybe this is just the Seattle market? Or is my account screwed up somehow? I was getting uber surges even at times that one wouldn't think tonight. Some busy days, as much as 40% of my daily earnings can come from surge alone (on Uber). This just tells me that Uber does a better job calculating demand with surge pricing, because if you end up inside of that area (unless it's so saturated with drivers that you can't get any pings) you'll start getting riders at surge prices pretty quickly. Tonight I even got a nice 1.7x surge picking up someone from a grocery store...yet, one block from a sports stadium, right as tens of thousands of people are leaving, no PT. You're going to tell me I'm doing it wrong? How much more demand could there be than a popular football team right outside of the stadium as the game gets out?


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## Stan07 (Oct 10, 2016)

Andre Benjamin 6000 said:


> Trip came out to about $75.


 Nice. PU/DO location?


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## Stan07 (Oct 10, 2016)

K-pax said:


> I still have yet to get a single PT ride. You're going to tell me I'm doing it wrong?


Keep waiting, eventually you'll get one...


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## Nuke (Dec 18, 2014)

K-pax You are doing it wrong


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## Havoc (Nov 10, 2016)

Did you screen cap that before you hit submit? I can't seem to get back at that part of the app once I hit submit.

Also, granted I've only been driving for Lyft about two months now, I have never seen PT over 100%, usually PT here goes from 25-75%, rarely at 100%. You must live in an area where there are a shortage of drivers....


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Nuke said:


> K-pax You are doing it wrong


How does one do it?


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

K-pax said:


> I still have yet to get a single PT ride. I did get an hourly guarantee for this week offered, which looks really nice (yes, I'll do that, thanks). I sat right outside of the Seahawks game, as it got out. Uber surging like crazy and pings coming in left right and center. Lyft was PT like crazy but not a single ping came in (No, I'm not an idiot, who will just sit there with no riders. I was taking all the uber business, but left Lyft on just to test my theory... and sure enough only pings came in with no PT when I was as far away from the PT as poss.) Lyft is still nice to pick up some extra riders, but I'm skeptical about anyone claiming they're doing lots of PT rides. I have literally no idea how to even get one, let alone a lot. AN entire district can be lit up like a pink xmas tree for 30 min and it still doesn't happen... and there def. isn't an oversaturation of lyft drivers from what I can tell. Maybe this is just the Seattle market? Or is my account screwed up somehow? I was getting uber surges even at times that one wouldn't think tonight. Some busy days, as much as 40% of my daily earnings can come from surge alone (on Uber). This just tells me that Uber does a better job calculating demand with surge pricing, because if you end up inside of that area (unless it's so saturated with drivers that you can't get any pings) you'll start getting riders at surge prices pretty quickly. Tonight I even got a nice 1.7x surge picking up someone from a grocery store...yet, one block from a sports stadium, right as tens of thousands of people are leaving, no PT. You're going to tell me I'm doing it wrong? How much more demand could there be than a popular football team right outside of the stadium as the game gets out?


Lmao!!!


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

Havoc said:


> Did you screen cap that before you hit submit? I can't seem to get back at that part of the app once I hit submit.
> 
> Also, granted I've only been driving for Lyft about two months now, I have never seen PT over 100%, usually PT here goes from 25-75%, rarely at 100%. You must live in an area where there are a shortage of drivers....


Dude, just screenshot it when it pops up after the ride. Lol! I live in San Diego. Usually we get PT during rush hour in the mornings, after sporting events, concerts, festivals & bar close. Every market is different so 25% - 75% doesn't surprise me. Lyft may not be as popular in your market but that could change. I've been @ this almost 2 yrs & there was a time when PT sucked here too. Nevermind what the rate is right now, practice getting PT between 25% - 75% right now. That way you'll be prepared when/if it goes higher. Most drivers here gave up on trying to get Lyft PT for a long time. That made things for me real easy, for a long time. Now that driver's have somewhat figured it out, PT is a little more elusive for me but I can still snag if I try hard enough. As I said, there's a learning curve to Lyft PT & you need to practice.


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

Andre Benjamin 6000 said:


> View attachment 76495
> 
> 
> Trip came out to about $75.


Youre doing it wrong.

You scratch out the cents column not the dollars for privacy concerns


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

K-pax said:


> How does one do it?


Non-event PT tends to be tied to specific spots and has a specific rhythm to it

See Pink on screen? DON'T drive there app-on..... screenshot it, then drive there app off if it's <3 mins away.

Otherwise, keep looking out for more PT in that spot, take more screenshots, and try showing up for those times NEXT TIME

Mon, TueWedsThurs, Friday morning, Fri-Sat nights, and Sundays are separate "cycles"

i.e. a wednesday morning surge pattern has a good chance of repeating Thursday morning, but Friday night corresponds more to Saturday night


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

Adieu said:


> Youre doing it wrong.
> 
> You scratch out the cents column not the dollars for privacy concerns


I tried?!?


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## Nuke (Dec 18, 2014)

K-pax said:


> How does one do it?


Like this


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## Nuke (Dec 18, 2014)

Or this


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

Nuke said:


> Like this
> View attachment 77091





Nuke said:


> Or this
> 
> View attachment 77093


Nice work!


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## Nuke (Dec 18, 2014)

Had no luck with 500% yet


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

Me neither...


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## Nuke (Dec 18, 2014)

It is gotta be a life threatening situation for pax to request at 500%, or if he is using other people's (company, dad, stolen card) money.


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## Stan07 (Oct 10, 2016)

Andre Benjamin 6000 said:


> Me neither...
> 
> View attachment 77104


Worked 12 hours made $158 and now waiting for bar closing. One PT a day, same bs in every market.


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Ok... so why am I not getting a single PT? Getting Uber surge is a given. Every day I work, I get some of that, including up to 3 or 4 times Surge. If you're in the surge location 90% of the time you'll get it. Is there a secret handshake I'm missing? I'm making good money on lyft and uber combined but there seems to be no way to get PT. The only thing good about PT is to lead me to where an Uber surge might be starting (PT seems to be more sensitive to small changes). Do you just keep those screenshots around to gloat? Have you ever driven Uber? Surge is super easy to get...and lots of it.


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## Nuke (Dec 18, 2014)

Sorry K-pax but Lyft hates you lol


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## Nuke (Dec 18, 2014)

Just get a second phone and track the PT thru it.


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## Nuke (Dec 18, 2014)

500% done


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Nuke said:


> Just get a second phone and track the PT thru it.


Keep in mind, I now have about 300 Lyft rides under my belt, so I've gotten a few PT fares here and there, but I'll still say... PT is insanely hard to get, even if you're sitting right in the middle of it during busy times, parked right out of a venue in a 150%+ zone, watching people leaving the event with phones in hand literally ordering cars as you watch). Multiple third party apps on a tethered phone monitoring real time PT and Surge data, and collecting my own data to sift through at a later date. In this market, it's VERY rare that people order cars when PT is going on from everything I've noticed. You can sit in the PT zone and nothing will come in, then the second it goes off, the requests will come in. They just order Uber, because PT happens a lot more frequently when Uber is not surging at all or they wait, because PT jumps from PT to non-PT fairly quickly. I have, actually, subsequently gotten some PT fares, but usually not when I'm actively trying to get them (I have literally never seen a PT fare that large except for on NYE, with Uber reaching double that at the same time... I saw an 11x at one point). I am very good at predicting where PT and Surges will be before they happen, but people just wait out PT while it seems Uber pax don't care about pinging during surges. Maybe it's a difference in markets? If you have to work THAT hard to get extra, how is this a good thing? Uber can be frustrating, but it's Surge is actually not that hard to get... If you're in a surge area, you will almost always get it. I've come to learn that PT areas are no-ping areas and still, with daily surges on Uber, and 300 Lyft rides so far, Trying to PURPOSEFULLY get a PT fare fails a majority of the time.

IMO, it looks like pax are just looking at both apps and choosing whatever is cheaper at the moment. Lyft goes into PT quite a lot over here, often when Uber doesn't surge. Could be Uber trying to undercut Lyft possibly.... All I know is, if I drive into an Uber surge, almost ALWAYS, I get instant pings for exactly what the surge rate tells me on third party apps. I can literally work surges like clockwork. I think I've only experienced the same with Uber surges once or twice where it was lit up bright red and there was no demand to match it, and complained to them about it. All PT tells me, is that somene will eventually ping me as soon as the PT is over (it's good at showing where demand WILL be, but even if you're sitting in the PT zone the entire time it exists from the first moment to when it disappears, you will not get the ping till the PT disappears)... UNLESS uber is surging at the exact same rate as the PT %..... and Uber is still busier in the Seattle market, so you will make more money overall if you go to Uber for surges. I've had $180 fares on Uber with surge, too... It doesn't real prove anything. If you sat around for hours waiting for that one big PT fare, I'm sitting there getting surge after surge after surge... sometimes even getting surge fares stacked before I even drop pax off. The higher the surge value, the quicker the ping comes in.... which shows me it's more accurately measuring the actual demand. Lyft can have a really impressive number flashing in front of me all they want, but if nobody orders a car at that rate, then it doesn't mean anything.

It's a quantity vs. quality thing. Psychologically, Lyft looks like it's 'surging' all over the place, but the chances of that 'surge' paying off is not that good. On the other hand, Uber surges only when demand is through the roof (typically), so if I see that surge data come through my tethered phone, I know I'm going to get it, if I'm close by. Every single time, experience has confirmed this (in the Seattle market). I've found monitoring PT data is good for finding base rate Lyft pings, but I usually have to wait for the PT to end before I actually get anything.


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

Nuke said:


> View attachment 90190
> 500% done


550% actually...wow you guys seriously don't see those lil letters too well do you???

Which is 6.5x surge base / 7.4x pdb10 / 8.5x pdb20 (20%ers 7.3x & 8.1x)

Btw I was -WRONG-, Lyft does charge basic commission on XL

So if you get it on Lyft Plus, that's 75/72nds base to 100/72nds (20%er pdb20)...

95/72= 1.32 multiplier
100/72= 1.39 multiplier

So a "550% pt"....can be a stunning ****9.0xL surge***** (and even for a barebones 2005 grand caravan driver with no pdb, still pays 6.8xL/7.2xL


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

K-pax said:


> Do you just keep those screenshots around to gloat?


Well....YES

That and to show padawans who try to call BS on us that our methods work

Btw my first few hundred rides I also saw little to no PT ...and though 75% was MAD EXPENSIVE

Sone 300-350-400-500-even-600% calls later, I realized the error of my ways

Lyft PT is more volatile and elusive yes. And getting peak PT *and* on decent rides is tricky.....BUT !!!! It is possible to do consistently

I've done whole mornings without a single non-PT fare before


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Adieu said:


> 550% actually...wow you guys seriously don't see those lil letters too well do you???
> 
> Which is 6.5x surge base / 7.4x pdb10 / 8.5x pdb20 (20%ers 7.3x & 8.1x)
> 
> ...


How much down time did it take to get that fare... and are you in my market? Uber is dominant in the Seattle market by quite a lot. Also, the surge data tends to reflect demand a lot more accurately than Lyft does (in Seattle). The surges are actually kind of sparse and people complain about it... but if a surge happens, it's very reliable. I see all sorts of impressive numbers on Lyft, but never the actual demand in those areas to back the number up, which shows me that some sort of other factors, like calculating PT by people LOOKING AT THE APP, rather than how many people are ordering cars, is in play... which is part of how PT is determined.

So... you could have people opening Lyft, seeing that it's expensive, then ordering an Uber, and the Lyft algorithm would show a huge spike in demand.

I actually wish this weren't the case, because Lyft is nicer in general. I've started to go Uber only when it's surging, because I don't see an inverse relationship with surge pricing and volume. The higher the surge, the more the volume.... even though they're paying more... which was only different, so far, during NYE, when both were going nuts with 'surge' at the same time.

In my market, as far as anything I've seen, PT is broken and needs to be fixed. No amount of seeing PT multipliers everywhere is going to entice me to get excited (psychologically) unless my earnings reflect those numbers.


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

Btw, MOST of the pt zones *AND* highest pt rates NEVER show up on the map

You just gotta figure out that they're there

It's typical dangly Lyft carrot...

BUT it's a carrot some of us consume regularly


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Adieu said:


> View attachment 90197
> 
> 
> Well....YES
> ...


Ok... and I've gotten Surge rides that were the same before. The truth is, in the Seattle market, I've noticed that over time, averaged out, I make way more on Uber surges, with a lot more reliability that I'll get them, with higher volume. I've noticed that on Lyft, it takes LONGER to get a ping when it's PT, but on Uber it takes LESS time when it's Surging. WHat that tells me, is that Lyft is not accurately measuring demand, even though you might get some people ordering cars at those rates sometimes.


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Adieu said:


> Btw, MOST of the pt zones *AND* highest pt rates NEVER show up on the map
> 
> You just gotta figure out that they're there
> 
> ...


You skimmed past my "third party apps" mentions repeatedly. I don't monitor anything on the driver apps that draw from data of either platform. I see surges AND pt on third party apps that don't even show up on the 'heat maps' at all. If it even shows up in either platform, I can actually see it lagging way behind on the driver heat map. I completely ignore those.


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

K-pax said:


> Ok... and I've gotten Surge rides that were the same before. The truth is, in the Seattle market, I've noticed that over time, averaged out, I make way more on Uber surges, with a lot more reliability that I'll get them, with higher volume. I've noticed that on Lyft, it takes LONGER to get a ping when it's PT, but on Uber it takes LESS time when it's Surging. WHat that tells me, is that Lyft is not accurately measuring demand, even though you might get some people ordering cars at those rates sometimes.


Lyft does NOT measure demand acted upon (orders made)

Lyft tracks who and where WANTS a ride...

Orders made and pax picked up are actually the KILLER of pts


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## Adieu (Feb 21, 2016)

K-pax said:


> You skimmed past my "third party apps" mentions repeatedly. I don't monitor anything on the driver apps that draw from data of either platform. I see surges AND pt on third party apps that don't even show up on the 'heat maps' at all. If it even shows up in either platform, I can actually see it lagging way behind on the driver heat map. I completely ignore those.


Kewl.

Is it helping you much??


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Adieu said:


> Lyft does NOT measure demand acted upon (orders made)
> 
> Lyft tracks who and where WANTS a ride...
> 
> Orders made and pax picked up are actually the KILLER of pts


Yep. Exactly. 

So... in effect... They are trying to predict who MIGHT want a ride by showing people pricing out rides... but if people are having both apps open (as they do... and as pax have personally told me they do), they look and see the Lyft ride will cost them more, and then order the Uber. The net effect of that, for drivers like us, means basically that the number will be super high, getting everyone thinking that's the place to be... but it doesn't mean anything at all... in fact, it means there's a chance that you'll have slower business, because less people are willing to order a car at that rate, unless Uber is about the same cost (every person I've quizzed on it, has said if it's the same price, they'd pick Lyft every time... and yes, I've talked to pax about this).

On the other hand, Uber... measuring actual orders, while it isn't as predictive, means that if it's 2x... you will get a 2x quickly. If it's a 3x... that means pax actually are willing to order 3x rates and you will get it even quicker. A number means absolutely nothing if people won't pay it. It's just a psychological trick to make people excited... like a casino.... big money is over here! I'll sit there with no riders waiting for the motherlode.... it might happen once in a while, but you know... I can do 10 base rate fares in the time it takes to wait for one really impressive number, with minimal effort and make the same net earning for the night.


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Adieu said:


> Kewl.
> 
> Is it helping you much??


On Uber... TONS. Every time a surge is predicted and I just so happen to be there as it happens, it helps quite a lot, because I end up making $100 in an hour or more without even trying (the easiest times working, hands down) On Lyft, it does make me a little bit more, but mostly at base rates, as it shows me where people have their apps open.... and once the PT goes away they will start ordering.... and I'm not talking about chasing surges here.... I'm talking about literally being right in the thick of PT as it happens, business grinding to a halt, while pax wait out the PT, and then starting to order as soon as it goes away. It doesn't surge as often as Lyft, but when it does, it pays out reliably. I use the same method to predict both and have found I'm able to be right in the right place at the right time on both platforms. One pays off big... the other only slightly... because one measures the data by actual demand.... the other just throws big numbers at me if people open the app, look at the cost and then close the app and don't order a car.


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

and if you think this pleases me... it's frustrating as hell to not be doing lyft only in busy times, cause it makes it harder to get PDB... plus, Lyft really needs to gain more marketshare in Seattle. WHen doing base rates, I often earn a little more than Uber... pax are friendlier, they pay me to wait, it makes Uber sweat, etc... but when it comes to surge or PT... Surge is reliable, showing you what people are actually paying, PT throws big numbers at the riders and you while you sit around waiting for someone who is willing to pay it. I would rather both reflected ACTUAL demand. I could price a Big Mac at $9,000 and there might even be someone who would pay that if I waited long enough... but you know... it's just a psychological trick. If people were actually paying $9,000 for Big Macs, then you know... I'm gonna sell me some Big Macs as soon as possible, because that's the going rate.

One giant fare vs. a bunch of decent fares equals the same exact money.

My NYE had some really nice fares, but I didn't make more than a normal night.... why? Less volume. SO.... Lyft entices with the numbers while delivering less volume. Uber has less numbers, but more volume. Same exact result. The only difference is that it's less stressful to go from actual demand rather than hoping someone will pay 4 times the fare for Lyft when Uber isn't even surging... when a majority of riders are literally sitting with both apps open to see what's cheaper. It's just reality. Lyft is a little bit better than Uber, but they've got some Kool Aid to serve you like their competition.

On another note... Is Juno coming to Seattle soon?


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## ImmerUber (Jan 5, 2016)

K-pax said:


> I have not even got one single PT ride, at the height of the peak hours, in a big city, right next to a place that is visually very busy, and on the app shows is through the roof with demand. There will be maybe 1 or 2 drivers anywhere near me. Is my account screwed up or something? I'm not kidding. I could sit right next to a sports game as it gets out, filled with almost 10,000 people, and Uber will be going crazy with 3x and 4x pings, with tons of successful rides, while Lyft might ping once without any of the PT, even though it shows it in the app. About the only purpose the PT in Lyft has done for me, is to show me where I might be able to pick up some Uber business that isn't quite surging, or will surge. I guess that's a way to make me more money, but I doubt Lyft is in the business of making money for their competition.
> 
> Is Lyft completely non-existent in Seattle? I keep seeing people act like it's thriving, but I haven't seen that AT ALL. And then I see Lyft only drivers who claim to be doing well, or even better than on Uber. Are we living in alternative universes? I like Lyft slightly better on the rides I do get btw. It just appears to be useless to use it for anything other than getting extra riders when Uber is slow. I think PT is a myth. A week working, Uber surges for days and still not a single PT ride.


I drive in the Detroit and Ann Arbor markets and have been going so for exactly a year. Some PT vs. Surge observations:

1) During peak times - bar closing/special events/morning and evening rushes - Prime Time and Surges usually occur simultaneously, but not frequently enough where I run one app exclusively. So, to maximize profits I always run both Lyft and Uber if they're paying about the same increase in fares. Once I accept a request, I immediately turn off the other app.
2) Last year according to an email providing ended of year information, Lyft reports received $2164.00 in tips from 1868 rides or $1.16 in tips per ride. Regarding Uber, $83 in tips from 867 rides. Lyft tips constituted 7.5% of gross earnings for the year
3) I wish I knew the Seattle market better, but based on my 52 weeks of experience, utilize both and go with the one that's paying you the most at that instant. I stipulate instant because the rates between Lyft and Uber during surge/prime time are in a constant state of flux.
Best wishes to you K-Pax


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## Andre Benjamin 6000 (Nov 11, 2016)

Lol! Hang in there K-pax, I'm pulling for you my man.


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

Fuber and Lyft manipulate the screens to show you what they want you to see. Drivers are not accurately illustrated and you're being pushed into areas of false Surge and Primetime to provide coverage, said the experienced driver.

http://mashable.com/2015/07/29/uber-app-accuracy/#ftcN7i6oYgqR


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## JTR (Nov 13, 2015)

K-pax said:


> Keep in mind, I now have about 300 Lyft rides under my belt, so I've gotten a few PT fares here and there, but I'll still say... PT is insanely hard to get, even if you're sitting right in the middle of it during busy times, parked right out of a venue in a 150%+ zone, watching people leaving the event with phones in hand literally ordering cars as you watch). Multiple third party apps on a tethered phone monitoring real time PT and Surge data, and collecting my own data to sift through at a later date. In this market, it's VERY rare that people order cars when PT is going on from everything I've noticed. You can sit in the PT zone and nothing will come in, then the second it goes off, the requests will come in. They just order Uber, because PT happens a lot more frequently when Uber is not surging at all or they wait, because PT jumps from PT to non-PT fairly quickly. I have, actually, subsequently gotten some PT fares, but usually not when I'm actively trying to get them (I have literally never seen a PT fare that large except for on NYE, with Uber reaching double that at the same time... I saw an 11x at one point). I am very good at predicting where PT and Surges will be before they happen, but people just wait out PT while it seems Uber pax don't care about pinging during surges. Maybe it's a difference in markets? If you have to work THAT hard to get extra, how is this a good thing? Uber can be frustrating, but it's Surge is actually not that hard to get... If you're in a surge area, you will almost always get it. I've come to learn that PT areas are no-ping areas and still, with daily surges on Uber, and 300 Lyft rides so far, Trying to PURPOSEFULLY get a PT fare fails a majority of the time.
> 
> IMO, it looks like pax are just looking at both apps and choosing whatever is cheaper at the moment. Lyft goes into PT quite a lot over here, often when Uber doesn't surge. Could be Uber trying to undercut Lyft possibly.... All I know is, if I drive into an Uber surge, almost ALWAYS, I get instant pings for exactly what the surge rate tells me on third party apps. I can literally work surges like clockwork. I think I've only experienced the same with Uber surges once or twice where it was lit up bright red and there was no demand to match it, and complained to them about it. All PT tells me, is that somene will eventually ping me as soon as the PT is over (it's good at showing where demand WILL be, but even if you're sitting in the PT zone the entire time it exists from the first moment to when it disappears, you will not get the ping till the PT disappears)... UNLESS uber is surging at the exact same rate as the PT %..... and Uber is still busier in the Seattle market, so you will make more money overall if you go to Uber for surges. I've had $180 fares on Uber with surge, too... It doesn't real prove anything. If you sat around for hours waiting for that one big PT fare, I'm sitting there getting surge after surge after surge... sometimes even getting surge fares stacked before I even drop pax off. The higher the surge value, the quicker the ping comes in.... which shows me it's more accurately measuring the actual demand. Lyft can have a really impressive number flashing in front of me all they want, but if nobody orders a car at that rate, then it doesn't mean anything.
> 
> It's a quantity vs. quality thing. Psychologically, Lyft looks like it's 'surging' all over the place, but the chances of that 'surge' paying off is not that good. On the other hand, Uber surges only when demand is through the roof (typically), so if I see that surge data come through my tethered phone, I know I'm going to get it, if I'm close by. Every single time, experience has confirmed this (in the Seattle market). I've found monitoring PT data is good for finding base rate Lyft pings, but I usually have to wait for the PT to end before I actually get anything.


Congratulations you just achieved uber lyft psychologist degree


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## Trump Economics (Jul 29, 2015)

JTR said:


> Congratulations you just achieved uber lyft psychologist degree


8,000 rides later


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## Nuke (Dec 18, 2014)

Got any PT yet K-pax ?


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## SurgeSurferSD (Nov 15, 2016)

"Tell us what you loved" - 350% PT


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Nuke said:


> Got any PT yet K-pax ?
> 
> View attachment 126383


Yup. All the time. Lyft is much busier in the Seattle market these days. The tiny squares wreak havoc with my acceptance rate, but lately it's been much better.


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## DexNex (Apr 18, 2015)

K-pax said:


> I've been driving Uber for about a month and gotten to know those ropes, but just started Lyft yesterday. I was happy to see some areas PT for Lyft tonight (it made sense, around bars at that special golden money making time). I drove to these areas , with the PT enduring for well over 30 min without getting a single pax. Is this typical of PT on Lyft, or just a case of bad luck? Typically, if I drive into an Uber surge, I'll get a ping pretty quickly.
> 
> Also... on Lyft, how does one check where other lyft cars are, since the driver and passenger apps are one in the same? I suspect it could have been oversaturation of the area (despite driving in PT areas almost every time they showed up, I did not get one single ride as PT... but lots of normal ones).


Hey K-pax. The answer is that often times there is Prime Time in an area BEFORE it shows pink on the heat map. Once you see pink on the map, requests have already been accepted with Prime attached. A good example would be Magnolia in the AM. You know there is Prime Time that is going to hit, what you may not know is that it IS hitting throughout the morning without showing it on the map.

BTW, I see I just brought an old thread to life. Sorry if you have already figured this all out.


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## K-pax (Oct 29, 2016)

Yeah. Third party apps, trial and error, and lyft becoming busier in Seattle has helped on that front.


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## Ms.Doe (Apr 15, 2016)

MiddleClassedOut said:


> I've posted this everywhere already, including Reddit but one more time. I have no problem getting Prime Time WHEN it's possible:
> 
> First, you must understand that Lyft Prime Time is based far more on supply than Uber is. That's because Uber's express purpose with surge fares is to meet their goal of having a car available with an ETA of 5 minutes or less in urban areas. So even if there is plenty of supply, Uber surge rates will rise to meet demand. But this is not good for you as a driver, as passengers see plenty of cars and don't understand the surge and will wait and wait. Lyft Prime Time happens in 25% increments when there are more requests than cars in a small radius (we don't know how big, probably 1/4-1/2 mile.) I've tested this myself, just trust me, it's true. 3 requests and 2 cars = instant 25% Prime Time on that block. Lyft's Prime Time reflects true scarcity, and my experience is that this causes pax to pay more Prime Time - they can see there aren't many cars!
> 
> ...


Spot on! You know your sh*t!


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