# Travis has finally responded to driver demands!



## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

Here is the link to the article: http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/5/10923516/uber-travis-kalanick-drivers-facebook-medium

Travis claims that in September 2015, the average driver earned $39.30 per hour. His audacity is quite stunning. Too bad the media just reports what Travis states and doesn't bother speaking with drivers.

*Uber CEO appears to respond to outraged drivers on Facebook*

*Drivers demand a meeting with the ride-hail mogul*


By Andrew J . Hawkins

on February 5, 2016 01:16 pm

Email 
@andyjayhawk 










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Travis Kalanick, Uber's pugnacious founder and CEO, took to Facebook a few hours ago to post a link to a five-month-old blog post about the improving quality of life of uberX drivers in New York City. Three hours before, a group called the Uber Drivers Network posted an open letter to Kalanick and his investors on Medium, taking their beef with the company's recent fare cuts directly to the man in charge.

The dueling posts are a sign that Uber's driver problem is not quieting down, especially as the court date for a class action lawsuit challenging the way the ride-hail company classifies its drivers grows near. In the letter, the drivers' group demand Kalanick meet with them to discuss their grievances.

"WITHOUT DRIVERS ON THE PLATFORM, IT'LL BE OF NO VALUE."

"It is crucial that you reconsider the fact that Uber without us, the drivers, cannot be sustainable," they write. "We provide the vehicles, pay the insurance, cover the gas and all other cost associated being a driver and a transportation provider. Your technology is great, but without drivers on the platform, it'll be of no value to any consumer seeking a ride."

It seems likely that Kalanick's Facebook post - which compares three Septembers of uberX fares and earnings to conclude that life as an Uber driver in the country's biggest city was a damn good job - was meant to serve as a direct response to the driver letter. "Earnings per hour in NYC continue to go up year after year, especially after price cuts..." Kalanick muses.

The blog post he linked to features a testimonial from a smiling uberX driver named Samuel Nunez, who is quoted saying he earns $60,000 a year while driving only three days a week. This flexible schedule helps him pursue his real dream: singing. It's unclear, though, if his annual salary reflects the many expenses drivers must bear, including insurance payments and vehicle upkeep. And many drivers in New York City say that drive more than three days a week, and longer than 10-12 hours a day, in order to earn a decent living.

Uber says its drivers earned an average gross $39.30 an hour last September, which was 6.3 percent more than the hourly wage year over year. Uber is notoriously stingy with its earnings data, routinely refusing requests to publicize more than just a glossy sketch of earnings and hours of its workforce of independent contractors.

"EARNINGS PER HOUR IN NYC CONTINUE TO GO UP."

Earlier this week, the Uber Drivers Network organized one of the largest protests of drivers outside Uber's offices in Long Island City, Queens. At least 400 drivers showed up to rail against the recent 15 percent fare cuts, which Uber insists is only temporary and meant to combat against slower winter months. But drivers say they were losing $300 a week in earnings, forcing them to drive longer hours to make up for it.

The drivers are giving Kalanick until February 8th to respond to their demand to meet. But an Uber spokesperson says the company has already reached out to the protestors to arrange a sit-down, though if anyone it will probably be with the company's New York City general manager, Josh Mohrer. The spokesperson also released a statement that again touted the flexibility of drivers.


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

I cross posted this to the NY protest thread. 
New York cannot be used as the norm, the median, the anything. One, they all go through a lot more to drive than your average UberX driver that right now sweats whether they even have coverage in period one in their family car. I am not dogging these people, only pointing out the differences so NY drivers and other groups get the bits of respect they do, for going through the legal hoops to drive there. Please note that as such their rates may have dropped but are the highest in the country, yes? They have fees and things to make that about on par with the rest of us.

This pushback needs to grow and it needs to happen. This guy is either completely duplicitous or clueless or both.


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## Ca$h4 (Aug 12, 2015)

The IMPACT of "SELF REGULATION" by Uber to *control both prices and the number of cars* it puts on the road in each city results in Monopoly profits for Uber and poverty wages for Drivers. Uber is essencially a political entity that exercises political power to secure monopoly pricing power. Uber Speak and Uber Math result in Ubernomics that claims Drivers make more earnings when Uber lowers rates. Ubernomics is as false as "trickle down economics." Drivers make less wages/hr not more. Silicon Valley is promoting Monopolies which are impoverishing workers.

*http://www.nelp.org/commentary/newsweek-ubers-labor-relations-is-driving-it-into-a-ditch/*


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Exactly!!!!!!!! Excellent article.

On the top OP article, Travis, as usual offers only one half of a sentence: earning per hour went up...(if that is even true) expenses did too and more hours were required to work to counter balance. Keeping you on the road so that his passengers have a reduced wait time is the entire purpose behind this feudal bullshit he is pedaling.


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## sicky (Dec 18, 2015)

Ca$h4 said:


> The IMPACT of "SELF REGULATION" by Uber to *control both prices and the number of cars* it puts on the road in each city results in Monopoly profits for Uber and poverty wages for Drivers. Uber is essencially a political entity that exercises political power to secure monopoly pricing power. Uber Speak and Uber Math result in Ubernomics that claims Drivers make more earnings when Uber lowers rates. Ubernomics is as false as "trickle down economics." Drivers make less wages/hr not more. Silicon Valley is promoting Monopolies which are impoverishing workers.
> 
> *http://www.nelp.org/commentary/newsweek-ubers-labor-relations-is-driving-it-into-a-ditch/*


That's a great article too! I wish a journalist would mention that all of Uber's "earnings" numbers are before Uber's cut. On average, 35% of my "earnings" go to Uber. I used all of my driving data from the beginning of November until now to calculate this number.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

What a crock of crap. And stop using the word EARNINGS, it's NOT!! It's gross revenue. Earnings is what you have left after you pay your expenses.


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## rtaatl (Jul 3, 2014)

No_Nonsense said:


> He thought hes Leo Di Caprio on Titanic.
> The problem is that Titanic is not real,it's movie set.


Yeah, and it sunk too...lol!


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## kbrown (Dec 3, 2015)

Actually, I now make $40 per online hour since the rate cuts. Here's how I do it:


Acceptance rate below 70%
Never drive or even move my car unless I'm in a surge over 2.0
Drive only in the highest demand times (sporting events, rush hour, etc)
I drive a fuel-efficient car, go exactly the speed limit, and coast as much as possible to keep costs down
I never accept pools. Ever.
Oh- here's my favorite: I'll accept a drive in a surge and see the surge go higher. Guess what? I'll cancel that pax and I'll always get a pax with a higher surge. 
All of these strategies I've only employed AFTER the rate cut. Before the rate cut, I averaged about $19- 23 per online hour, accepted every ride, and took every pool.

Thanks, Trav! You're new strategy to cut rates so that the pax pays less is working! I'm rich!

(sidebar translation: "Thanks, *sshole! I've gotten around your new strategy and have to screw the pax so I can gets mine)


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## kbrown (Dec 3, 2015)

No_Nonsense said:


> This is my repost from NYC forum
> 
> Can you call a person smart and stupid at same time?
> And award goes to ..... or beloved Travis Kalanic.
> ...


If he's Leonardo DiCaprio on Titanic, he should remember that the boy selflessly drowned and died saving the woman he loved. Well.... I don't think Travis will be selfless about doing anything for us, but that hole will drown in his own greed.


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## rtaatl (Jul 3, 2014)

kbrown said:


> If he's Leonardo DiCaprio on Titanic, he should remember that the boy selflessly drowned and died saving the woman he loved. Well.... I don't think Travis will be selfless about doing anything for us, but that hole will drown in his own greed.


He's writing his own script because there was enough room for two on that boat..lol!


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## kbrown (Dec 3, 2015)

No_Nonsense said:


> Referred to "I'm the king of the world." Not to DiCaprios action to save somebody.
> Annoying.


Actually, I think he might think he's referring to the king of the world, but he's actually being referred to as drowning in the titanic.

I'm not worried. His company will eventually go down just like the titanic. And he will go down with all hands on deck. Not me, and not us drivers, though!


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## andaas (May 19, 2015)

kbrown said:


> Actually, I now make $40 per online hour since the rate cuts. Here's how I do it:
> 
> 
> Acceptance rate below 70%
> ...


Sadly, what you state above is exactly how Uber is coming up with their inflated numbers. Drivers that cherry pick service hours that follow surge/demand will absolutely earn "more per hour". Those same drivers will also be online for only portions of each hour, so when that $45 gross fare that was accepted, picked up, and dropped off, over a span of 30 minutes, equates to a "$90 gross fare hour". The problem is, you aren't "choosing when and how much you work", when and how much is being determined by the market. Which is fine, for the most part, but drivers should be paid sufficiently for their service at ALL times, not just a select few prime hours every day/week.

It's all smoke and mirrors, and Uber reports the best spin on the data they pull - and you know they probably throw out more data that doesn't paint the best picture than the amount of data they truly use.

I'd be curious to hear a report on that driver they profiled in October from the September 2015 report. How is he doing today?


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## mona mcN (Jan 17, 2016)

Ca$h4 said:


> The IMPACT of "SELF REGULATION" by Uber to *control both prices and the number of cars* it puts on the road in each city results in Monopoly profits for Uber and poverty wages for Drivers. Uber is essencially a political entity that exercises political power to secure monopoly pricing power. Uber Speak and Uber Math result in Ubernomics that claims Drivers make more earnings when Uber lowers rates. Ubernomics is as false as "trickle down economics." Drivers make less wages/hr not more. Silicon Valley is promoting Monopolies which are impoverishing workers.
> 
> *http://www.nelp.org/commentary/newsweek-ubers-labor-relations-is-driving-it-into-a-ditch/*


Well stated.


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## Tim In Cleveland (Jul 28, 2014)

Funny, Sherpashare shows DECREASING wages even before the last cuts.


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## MBENZ_GUY (May 13, 2015)

I think Kalanick has one foot in the grave as CEO. You heard it here first. Just don't believe the private investors will allow this guy to continue if the drivers continue to revolt...especially when Uber takes a hit to their earnings.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

He found a puppet to say he makes $60,000 /year while only workin 3 days a week. Probably 16hr shifts though......to be making $1,000/week in 3 days


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## ABC123DEF (Jun 9, 2015)

Puppet? Hahaha!


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

MBENZ_GUY said:


> I think Kalanick has one foot in the grave as CEO. You heard it here first. Just don't believe the private investors will allow this guy to continue if the drivers continue to revolt...especially when Uber takes a hit to their earnings.


So you think that Kalanick and his team have less than controlling interest in the company?


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## groot (Jul 7, 2015)

Bart McCoy said:


> He found a puppet to say he makes $60,000 /year while only workin 3 days a week. Probably 16hr shifts though......to be making $1,000/week in 3 days


700.00$ table dance W Hollywood


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## MBENZ_GUY (May 13, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> So you think that Kalanick and his team have less than controlling interest in the company?


Yes. The report is Kalanick has about 8-10%. He's getting rich with other people's money, not his own. His own wolves just might eat him.


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

"Uber says its drivers earned an average gross $39.30 an hour last September, which was 6.3 percent more than thehourly wage year over year."

First of all, Uber is cherry picking the data. Second, they are using gross fares, not driver earnings, certainly not driver earnings minus expenses.Third, the data is from before the rate cuts, not after. Fourth, drivers are driving many more hours than Uber says they are online, temporarily turning off the app for various reasons throughout the day. Finally, the drivers referred to in New York City are not representative of the lower rates that most drivers get throughout the country. 

Edited to add: Uber excluded waiting time between ride requests (time online when not on a trip). Uber also excluded any increase in the Safe Rides Fee, which would increase the fare without any portion going to the drivers.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Tim In Cleveland said:


> Funny, Sherpashare shows DECREASING wages even before the last cuts.


Those aren't decreasing wages. Those are decreasing earnings per ride. The whole idea behind the rate cuts were to increase the number of rides. Sherpa Share should have access to the average weekly earnings before and after rates cuts.


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## Tim In Cleveland (Jul 28, 2014)

JimS said:


> Those aren't decreasing wages. Those are decreasing earnings per ride. The whole idea behind the rate cuts were to increase the number of rides. Sherpa Share should have access to the average weekly earnings before and after rates cuts.


 So what? Even if true, it PRETENDS there are NO EXPENSES for extra miles. You sure aren't earning more after you deduct mileage. I see no reason to accept a fare you know will be minimum. I'm boycotting most downtown traffic until late night to avoid losing money on each fare. My app goes off as soon as I drop a customer until I get out of the area. Given it takes an average of 1/2 hour to complete a short trip, there's no excuse for less than $5 compensation. Uber wants to keep the price to the customer low? FINE. Waive YOUR SRF and commission and I will gladly take those fares all day.


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## MBENZ_GUY (May 13, 2015)

JimS said:


> Those aren't decreasing wages. Those are decreasing earnings per ride. The whole idea behind the rate cuts were to increase the number of rides. Sherpa Share should have access to the average weekly earnings before and after rates cuts.


What happens to a car when you drive it more? What flavor of kool-aid did you pick?


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Tim In Cleveland said:


> So what? Even if true, it PRETENDS there are NO EXPENSES for extra miles. You sure aren't earning more after you deduct mileage. I see no reason to accept a fare you know will be minimum. I'm boycotting most downtown traffic until late night to avoid losing money on each fare. My app goes off as soon as I drop a customer until I get out of the area. Given it takes an average of 1/2 hour to complete a short trip, there's no excuse for less than $5 compensation. Uber wants to keep the price to the customer low? FINE. Waive YOUR SRF and commission and I will gladly take those fares all day.





MBENZ_GUY said:


> What happens to a car when you drive it more? What flavor of kool-aid did you pick?


Do you actually read entire posts before reading one line that could perceive that I think Uber is awesome and jump down my throat? Listen - there's plenty of actual facts to be upset over. Misusing irrelevant data is counter productive. I can tell you on Friday night, 80% of the miles I put on my care were revenue miles, rather than prior to the rate cuts it was closer to 40%. I'm not in a market where I have the luxury of stacked pings all night, or where as soon as I drop off someone I can just sit and wait with the engine off for my next ping. I generally have to go out and put a LOT of dead miles on my car.

I have to considerably rethink my driving strategy almost on a weekly basis. I don't like these new rates at all. But I can sure testify that _sometimes_ it's busier enough that the lack of dead miles makes up for the reduction in rates. NOW, the reason for the back to back to back pings is a whole different story. I'm sure that the number of drivers in the area has been reduced dramatically. It surges way more often, but in short spurts. As a passenger, I would rather pay $1.50 per mile over $0.85/mile at 1.5x surge. I digress. The real measure we need to see is what the average weekly pay per driver is doing. Which was the point of my post. If I'm making the same total revenue with the same miles on my car, does it really matter how _many _pings you get? In fact, you get that extra drop fee for all those extra pings.

Here's an example. Last Friday, I had 6 rides. $60 in revenue. One $20 ride, one $18, a $12 and a few minimum fares. Not bad for only three hours. Last four rides were all stacked. I had no dead miles between them, but for a short hop to get to the next rider. It was the $18 fare that pissed me off the most because it took me 30 minutes to take the riders home, then 30 minutes to return to civilization. But for three hours, $60 wasn't bad. I've been online for 8 hours without making that much before the new rates.

So we have fewer drivers. If Uber raised the rates, we'd be oversaturated in 12 hours. Yet, they continue to recruit new drivers daily.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

MBENZ_GUY said:


> Yes. The report is Kalanick has about 8-10%. He's getting rich with other people's money, not his own. His own wolves just might eat him.


a) what report is that?
b) yes - OPM... so what? It's not like he invesnted venture capital - and he is the CEO of the company.
(can you name another company in history that in 6 years has gone from inception to operating with boots on the ground in 65+ countries and hundreds of cities?)


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

JimS said:


> Do you actually read entire posts before reading one line that could perceive that I think Uber is awesome and jump down my throat? Listen - there's plenty of actual facts to be upset over. Misusing irrelevant data is counter productive. I can tell you on Friday night, 80% of the miles I put on my care were revenue miles, rather than prior to the rate cuts it was closer to 40%. I'm not in a market where I have the luxury of stacked pings all night, or where as soon as I drop off someone I can just sit and wait with the engine off for my next ping. I generally have to go out and put a LOT of dead miles on my car.
> 
> I have to considerably rethink my driving strategy almost on a weekly basis. I don't like these new rates at all. But I can sure testify that _sometimes_ it's busier enough that the lack of dead miles makes up for the reduction in rates. NOW, the reason for the back to back to back pings is a whole different story. I'm sure that the number of drivers in the area has been reduced dramatically. It surges way more often, but in short spurts. As a passenger, I would rather pay $1.50 per mile over $0.85/mile at 1.5x surge. I digress. The real measure we need to see is what the average weekly pay per driver is doing. Which was the point of my post. If I'm making the same total revenue with the same miles on my car, does it really matter how _many _pings you get? In fact, you get that extra drop fee for all those extra pings.
> 
> ...


I had to look twice to see if I had written that post.


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## JimS (Aug 18, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I had to look twice to see if I had written that post.


Nah - other Cleveland dude.


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## MBENZ_GUY (May 13, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> a) what report is that?
> b) yes - OPM... so what? It's not like he invesnted venture capital - and he is the CEO of the company.
> (can yo name another company in history that in 6 years has gone from inception to operating with boots on the ground in 65+ countries and hundreds of cities?)


The rise was meteoric... the collapse will be epic, unless changes are made.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

MBENZ_GUY said:


> The rise was meteoric... the collapse will be epic, unless changes are made.


Collapse? I don't know about that... maybe the 'disassembling'

_This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper._


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## sammy44 (Nov 17, 2014)

i dont get it.
how can hourly earning keep going up while the rate keeps going down?


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## ubershiza (Jan 19, 2015)

GET BACK TO WORK! DON'T THINK WORK!


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## mona mcN (Jan 17, 2016)

Agent99 said:


> "Uber says its drivers earned an average gross $39.30 an hour last September, which was 6.3 percent more than thehourly wage year over year."
> 
> First of all, Uber is cherry picking the data. Second, they are using gross fares, not driver earnings, certainly not driver earnings minus expenses.Third, the data is from before the rate cuts, not after. Fourth, drivers are driving many more hours than Uber says they are online, temporarily turning off the app for various reasons throughout the day. Finally, the drivers referred to in New York City are not representative of the lower rates that most drivers get throughout the country.


That is fuber for you..very manipulative, arrogant,misleading, and above the law. Any company that pays dirty by allowing their employees to request 100s of ride to their competitors and then cancel is a F%$5 that is what we are dealing with


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## Uber Roanoke Robert (Aug 31, 2014)

Higher earnings? Nope.

My goal of 130-140 trips here (smaller area, quicker trips) used to get me around $1000, after $150-200 in fuel. And after several XL and surge trips.

148 trips and $656 this past week after about $158 in fuel card. It"s not worth it to work harder and make less. I have more trips in my area than anyone, but I"m about to stop.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

sammy44 said:


> i dont get it.
> how can hourly earning keep going up while the rate keeps going down?


The theory behind it actually works, it's just a matter of the practicality.

For example: 
If they charged $100 a mile, we would get no business except for the occasional once a year emergency, you would make nothing.
If they charge $10 a mile, you would get the occasional short ride from someone who didn't care or was in a real hurry.
At $3 a mile we are near cab rates (in Raleigh), some volume but it will be slow. 
At $1.50 you will be doing a lot more than twice as much as if it was $3.00 a mile. In my mind that would be peak earnings to effort in my market
At .70 a mile I'm sure people are getting 2-3 times as many rides as if it was $1.50 but their expenses go up dramatically too (what Uber neglects to mention)

So there is an optimum price to charge, the problem is that the optimum is different for Uber (who gets a fat SRF for each ride) than it is for the driver and Uber gets to make the rules.


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## naplestom75 (May 3, 2015)

Agent99 said:


> "Uber says its drivers earned an average gross $39.30 an hour last September, which was 6.3 percent more than thehourly wage year over year."
> 
> First of all, Uber is cherry picking the data. Second, they are using gross fares, not driver earnings, certainly not driver earnings minus expenses.Third, the data is from before the rate cuts, not after. Fourth, drivers are driving many more hours than Uber says they are online, temporarily turning off the app for various reasons throughout the day. Finally, the drivers referred to in New York City are not representative of the lower rates that most drivers get throughout the country.


They probably count the hours actually "in-trip" and not on-line.


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## naplestom75 (May 3, 2015)

sammy44 said:


> i dont get it.
> how can hourly earning keep going up while the rate keeps going down?


that's what makes the claim such a joke and an insult to anyone's intelligence


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## kbrown (Dec 3, 2015)

Tim In Cleveland said:


> Funny, Sherpashare shows DECREASING wages even before the last cuts.


I wonder how Detroit looks?


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## Larry-AMS (Feb 24, 2015)

MBENZ_GUY said:


> I think Kalanick has one foot in the grave as CEO. You heard it here first. Just don't believe the private investors will allow this guy to continue if the drivers continue to revolt...especially when Uber takes a hit to their earnings.


Travis took a page from the Steve Jobs story and wrote in a clause that ensures he can NEVER be removed as CEO of Uber.


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## Kruhn (Sep 24, 2015)

No_Nonsense said:


> This is my repost from NYC forum
> 
> Can you call a person smart and stupid at same time?
> And award goes to ..... or beloved Travis Kalanic.
> ...





No_Nonsense said:


> This is my repost from NYC forum
> 
> Can you call a person smart and stupid at same time?
> And award goes to ..... or beloved Travis Kalanic.
> ...


The Economist, as one of their year-end stunts, created The James Stuart Award, after King James I, called by many, the smartest fool in all Christendom. Too bad we can't nominate His Travisness for the award.


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## Beachbum in a cornfield (Aug 28, 2014)

Hey folks!!!!! Do you see it?.....there is a crack in the Uber Wall. The fact that our fearless leader is deeming it necessary to address these issues means that some of the blowback is working.....KEEP IT UP!!!!!!


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## ATL2SD (Aug 16, 2015)

Beachbum in a cornfield said:


> Hey folks!!!!! Do you see it?.....there is a crack in the Uber Wall. The fact that our fearless leader is deeming it necessary to address these issues means that some of the blowback is working.....KEEP IT UP!!!!!!


That schmuck isn't my leader. I hope he gets infected with the Zika virus.


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## LA Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

^^ That's mean. I love it!


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## bezi_NY (Feb 28, 2015)

Work more for less. Got it!

I'm with these guys.
http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/an-uber-labor-movement-born-in-a-laguardia-parking-lot


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## Lost In Translation (Sep 18, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> I cross posted this to the NY protest thread.
> New York cannot be used as the norm, the median, the anything. One, they all go through a lot more to drive than your average UberX driver that right now sweats whether they even have coverage in period one in their family car. I am not dogging these people, only pointing out the differences so NY drivers and other groups get the bits of respect they do, for going through the legal hoops to drive there. Please note that as such their rates may have dropped but are the highest in the country, yes? They have fees and things to make that about on par with the rest of us.
> 
> This pushback needs to grow and it needs to happen. This guy is either completely duplicitous or clueless or both.


Imagine that Travis has managed to anger and alienate his brand ambassadors so much, many are actually rooting for Uber to fail.

If even one tbird of the 220,000 drivers is angry, you can be sure 70,000 drivers are out there telling their passengers about it. A happy customer will tell 2 people but an unhappy customer will tell ten or more. Goes for wmpoyees too, even if you call them independent contractors.

Some Uber drivers who also work for Lyft actually try to get Uber passengers to switch to Lyft, sharing the stories of the evils of Travis. And giving the customer promo cards for free rides.

Travis had one good idea by attacking an old corrupt industry that thought it had the politicians snowed and paid off so they could maintain a monopoly. That does not make the guy qualified to run a company.

Travis is a stupid, arrogant know it all. Even Sergei and Larry, founders of Google, had the good sense to hire an adult, Eric Schmidt to actually run the company.

What Travis has yet to learn is that giving customers what they want while ignoring drivers is a sure path to failure.

At some point, especially if the class action goes badly, the investors will have had enough of Travis and kick him and his poor business practices to the curb.

Uber lies, Travis lies. At some point it has to stop.


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## groot (Jul 7, 2015)

Lost In Translation said:


> Imagine that Travis has managed to anger and alienate his brand ambassadors so much, many are actually rooting for Uber to fail.
> 
> If even one tbird of the 220,000 drivers is angry, you can be sure 70,000 drivers are out there telling their passengers about it. A happy customer will tell 2 people but an unhappy customer will tell ten or more. Goes for wmpoyees too, even if you call them independent contractors.
> 
> ...


I never seen like this beach m fyker rude bastard T K


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## CIncinnatiDriver (Dec 17, 2015)

kbrown said:


> Actually, I now make $40 per online hour since the rate cuts. Here's how I do it:
> 
> 
> Acceptance rate below 70%
> ...


CORRECT. This is how. 
Addendum: XL helps a LOT.



Agent99 said:


> "Uber says its drivers earned an average gross $39.30 an hour last September, which was 6.3 percent more than thehourly wage year over year."
> 
> First of all, Uber is cherry picking the data. Second, they are using gross fares, not driver earnings, certainly not driver earnings minus expenses.Third, the data is from before the rate cuts, not after. Fourth, drivers are driving many more hours than Uber says they are online, temporarily turning off the app for various reasons throughout the day. Finally, the drivers referred to in New York City are not representative of the lower rates that most drivers get throughout the country.


YES.



naplestom75 said:


> They probably count the hours actually "in-trip" and not on-line.


UNDOUBTEDLY.


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## überuntil (Jan 12, 2016)

I like this slightly different quote better - and the movie's ending fits perfectly:

"Made it, Ma! Top of the world!" 
James Cagney
White Heat (1949)


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## überuntil (Jan 12, 2016)

Thanks to T.S. Elliot...


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## Dts08 (Feb 25, 2015)

The sad part about it , is , that he can do wonders wnd satisfy a lot of drivers by just simply putting a tipping option on the app..I really can't see why he so reluctant to do it..and a one day strike just gives him free advertisement of the low fares...


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Dts08 said:


> The sad part about it , is , that he can do wonders wnd satisfy a lot of drivers by just simply putting a tipping option on the app..I really can't see why he so reluctant to do it..and a one day strike just gives him free advertisement of the low fares...


No, it does not. There is more backlash this time, maybe because he has pulled the same stunt too many times and finally passed a reasonable threshold of human expectation. The quality of service has declined to the point that people are now not exactly content just because it is cheap. Drivers are fighting to drive smarter. Cancellations and wait times are increasing. But you are correct that the Man himself could do wonders.

Does anyone proudly proclaim they drive for Uber anymore? No. 
Does he have any loyalty from any of us on the street (not his hourly employees in his buildings) Not really.

Is the word getting put that he appears to be preying on the immigrant population that still believe if you work your ass off eventually you can rise above and succeed? And he is abusing them as well as everyone else? Yes. 
And for what? Does he really think people believe his running water bullshit? Then he is an out of touch (yes, we know he is) prick and it is beginning to be even more obvious to his investors. And even if he does t give a rats ass about us, his passengers, or anyone else, he does care about them, and they don't like the bad press when it spotlights that they support his sweat shop.

Keep up the work of making sure people know. I don't think we have demands, we have requests at this point. Humane points and that one man has the power to either look like a constructive member of society or the ass munch, laughing stock of a Scrooge CEO that he does now (deep breath) can change and actually keep this company alive, or it will fall. It will not be this week, but it will fall.


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## Dts08 (Feb 25, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> No, it does not. There is more backlash this time, maybe because he has pulled the same stunt too many times and finally passed a reasonable threshold of human expectation. The quality of service has declined to the point that people are now not exactly content just because it is cheap. Drivers are fighting to drive smarter. Cancellations and wait times are increasing. But you are correct that the Man himself could do wonders.
> 
> Does anyone proudly proclaim they drive for Uber anymore? No.
> Does he have any loyalty from any of us on the street (not his hourly employees in his buildings) Not really.
> ...


Of course he can do more, but differant cities have their own unique problems..I drive at $1.20 per mile here, of course it could be better but it's decent compared to other markets..the rest of your post I also totally agree with..


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## DaveCraige (Feb 11, 2016)

What a weenie way to respond


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

DaveCraige said:


> What a weenie way to respon


Hi DaveCraige, welcome to the Forum, finally!


Would you mind making a short introductory post by starting a thread in *People sub forum*.

Thanx!


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## Beachbum in a cornfield (Aug 28, 2014)

Dts08 said:


> Of course he can do more, but differant cities have their own unique problems..I drive at $1.20 per mile here, of course it could be better but it's decent compared to other markets..the rest of your post I also totally agree with..


I like your honesty DTs.....and hope you get the fact that if we don't all start pulling in the same direction.....beantown could be next in the move to .95 land.....here in Indy it's .75. Travis seems to lack the vision to understand that we are the product....NOT the app! (I am not implying that you don't get it)


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## Patrick Swayze (Oct 25, 2015)

Bart McCoy said:


> He found a puppet to say he makes $60,000 /year while only workin 3 days a week. Probably 16hr shifts though......to be making $1,000/week in 3 days


Hmmm I think your math is off


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

sicky said:


> Uber says its drivers earned an average gross $39.30 an hour last September, which was 6.3 percent more than the hourly wage year over year.


*Poll | Avg. Gross Fares/Hour for UberX in NYC*


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> No, it does not. There is more backlash this time, maybe because he has pulled the same stunt too many times and finally passed a reasonable threshold of human expectation. The quality of service has declined to the point that people are now not exactly content just because it is cheap. Drivers are fighting to drive smarter. Cancellations and wait times are increasing. But you are correct that the Man himself could do wonders.
> 
> Does anyone proudly proclaim they drive for Uber anymore? No.
> Does he have any loyalty from any of us on the street (not his hourly employees in his buildings) Not really.
> ...


Uber will not stop abusing its drivers. Article link good for 48 hours...

https://pando.com/2016/01/12/uber-i...ers/dca117ca2c60b0ee49b1b9d956437370996f12df/


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Patrick Swayze said:


> Hmmm I think your math is off


It's not. I'm not being exact but he's making a lil over $1,000/week. Working 3 days a week


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Agent99 said:


> *https://pando.com/2016/01/12/uber-i...ers/dca117ca2c60b0ee49b1b9d956437370996f12df/*


_There's a post on Medium that's a) going viral and b) is incredibly infuriating. How's that for an unshocking lede?

The post, written by former Uber driver Dave Craige, revealed that Uber is now paying a pathetic 30 cents a mile to drivers in Detroit. _

DaveCraige just signed up as forum member.


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## Bart McCoy (Nov 4, 2014)

Dave Craige has moved to lyft, but im sure Lyft rate is pretty much the same as UBer's rate. Forget tips, Uber/Lyft are the same type of evil, smh


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Agent99 said:


> Uber will not stop abusing its drivers. Article link good for 48 hours...
> 
> https://pando.com/2016/01/12/uber-i...ers/dca117ca2c60b0ee49b1b9d956437370996f12df/


I read the article and as many links in it that seemed to work. Pando is the site that Uber wanted the smear squad to crush the female editor/reporter, yes? 
And in this article it mentions Mr. Craig, possibly new to the forum. (Welcome) Not pandering to Mister Craig, but the author of the linked article comparing him to an abuse victim in his mentality was very narrow(and disrespectful to true abuse victims).

I think a lot of drivers like what they started with, or the concept. They love the idea that the harder they work, the more they can make. To lose such an opportunity for a large swath of Americans still reeling from a recession would suck. There are others, but few as unique as this one. No doubt about that one. If trying to reason with or understand a company founders logic to see if he really is such a turd nugget is wrong, well I will have to take Craig's side in this one.

Most non commercial drivers are beholden to an Ap that connects them to random strange passengers and Uber is just fuxing everyone along the way. I am not going to disparage Travis K's fascination with self driving cars, or supposed head long rush into technology.but. I am going to remark on his using other people's brains and hard work to get there. 
Uber drivers are at a cross roads. They (we) as a whole have the option to run as fast as we can and look for other ways to create/supplement income as the Pando article suggests, yes.

Another is to hold Uber responsible for basically lying and using the crap out of us through unifying with a trusted organization of some sort, whichever it may be. And that seems very hard to do because no one trusts each other, or is so desperate they would fux their brother for a surge fare. Disgusts me. The whole gotta gets mine before someone else does for scraps is demeaning and tragic. But there are always going to be those who don't see a bigger picture because they just can't.

A third is to look for a competitor using the same basic technology and connectivity to save us and crush them, via Lyft, DD, postmates, whatever. Arcade City appears to have the right idea for drivers in many regards but it is limited by very normal, legal restraints that Uber just steamrolls, but seems realistic and I wish them success like no other I have in a while. It sadly excludes a lot of UberX which are in fact illegal taxis, thanks to regulations, and yes, safety concerns like passenger liability. (Remember, complete strangers in your car paying you to take you somewhere/insurance, blah blah)

And the fourth is to sit around and hope someone else's lawsuit pays off and we all get regulation that is desperately needed thanks to Uber's audacity and hubris.

I don't care what route everyone chooses I am beginning to just want any route that brings this company back to reality, even if it puts a lot of hardworking immigrants and indentured servants out into the work force, including me. What I am having a problem with is leaving behind people to fend for themselves. Maybe it's the 27yr career Veteran in me that won't allow me to.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

groot said:


> Just fyk him


Excuse me?


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> I read the article and as many links in it that seemed to work. Pando is the site that Uber wanted the smear squad to crush the female editor/reporter, yes?
> And in this article it mentions Mr. Craig, possibly new to the forum. (Welcome) Not pandering to Mister Craig, but the author of the linked article comparing him to an abuse victim in his mentality was very narrow(and disrespectful to true abuse victims).
> 
> I think a lot of drivers like what they started with, or the concept. They love the idea that the harder they work, the more they can make. To lose such an opportunity for a large swath of Americans still reeling from a recession would suck. There are others, but few as unique as this one. No doubt about that one. If trying to reason with or understand a company founders logic to see if he really is such a turd nugget is wrong, well I will have to take Craig's side in this one.
> ...


You have a good memory. Here is the link to the story about the Pando journalist:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...-after-suggesting-a-journalist-smear-campaign

By the way, Pando is/was offering free subscriptions to rideshare drivers and other sharing economy workers.


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

The response spin was what I remember too. Trashing other people personally that don't agree with you and voice their opposition as such is disgusting. It's also,why some really great people,don't run for political office. Their humility regarding past issues or their families are used against them. 

The VP Mr. Michael is a thug. It came out in his words. And he couldn't take them back. If he wanted pride in his company, he should have steered it toward following some laws, or yeah, lobbying for change if completely stupid, or gasp!!! Respected his drivers and found ways to earn their respect as well. Summation: thug and thug company


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Agent99 are you a member of your city's driver organization? Your city was the first ever to allow unionizing of independent contract drivers, right? How does it work for drivers in Seattle?


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> Agent99 are you a member of your city's driver organization? Your city was the first ever to allow unionizing of independent contract drivers, right? How does it work for drivers in Seattle?


It's early days but I need to catch up on the status of that organization. There's no union yet..


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Agent99 said:


> It's early days but I need to catch up on the status of that organization. There's no union yet..


So the city authorized that you can, right? The discussion of how last years rate change was reversed and the Uber spin trying to say it was unrelated is very interesting g to me. Your city could be an excellent example of a game changer.


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

Agent99 said:


> You have a good memory. Here is the link to the story about the Pando journalist:
> 
> http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...-after-suggesting-a-journalist-smear-campaign
> 
> By the way, Pando is/was offering free subscriptions to rideshare drivers and other sharing economy workers.


Free subscription for drivers...here's the link...

https://pando.com/2016/02/05/driver-uber-or-lyft-get-100-free-pando-membership-right-now/


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> So the city authorized that you can, right? The discussion of how last years rate change was reversed and the Uber spin trying to say it was unrelated is very interesting to me. Your city could be an excellent example of a game changer.


It's interesting to me also. At first I believed the spin but I'm not certain now. It does seem like Uber has a "Don't mess with Seattle" policy. Their rates are unchanged this year. And they allow very low ride acceptance rates (they're not enforcing a minimum.) This is what I observe and what some others report. YMMV.


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## John Deer (Feb 12, 2015)

I want to do a bit of math based on the 4 Septembers post.

If number of rides stays the same - the 15% price cut is actually a *20%* "salary" cut - from $21/hr to *$17/hr *(as car expenses are unaffected)
This is in addition to the 10% drop from $23/hr due to the increased Uber tax.
To get to the same earning/hour as now, the driver's idle time will have to drop to 12 min of every hour (vs. 20 minutes now). Of course _if_ 15% price decrease would get customers to take at least 20% more Uber rides. Maybe
This will result in _reduced availability_ which will cause *surges* 
Conclusion: this is a devious Uber plan *to increase driver earnings with surge.* It can't tell anyone though. Keep it secret!

The gory details:
Gross fares per hour: $39.30. Take out 2.44% Black Car fund, 8.875% Sales Tax and 25% Uber Tax, and we're left with $25 (pre price-cut). But this still doesn't include the car cost, insurance, etc. To estimate that, we need to know how many miles were travelled per hour. I don't have exact numbers for that, but if I remember $0.4/mile is reasonable. But how many miles/hour. Based on quite a few assumptions I think 10 miles (1). Therefore, we have to subtract $4/hour on expenses - giving us $21/hr "salary" (2). But that's so 2015.
With 15% reduction in prices, and no increase in number of trips, the _earnings _drop by 15% (from $25 to $21.25) but the _expenses_ stay the same at $4, therefore, the "salary" drops from $21 to *$17/hr*. That's a *20% drop!*

What would it take for drivers to take home the same as before the price cut? Increasing the number of "on trip" miles per hour obviously. This can come either from increase in number of rides or from increasing length for each ride (assuming there _is_ an increase). So, what happens if the number of rides/hour increases by 20% (from our assumption of 1.46 to 1.75)? Well, first, the number of "on trip" minutes would increase - from 32 today to 38. Fair enough. But if the number of rides increases - so does the time (and money...) to get to the pickup and wait for the passenger. Uber says this accounted to 8 minutes of every hour in September - with 1.46 rides/hour, that's 5.5 minutes per ride - of which 3.4 minutes are driving to pickup and the rest (2.1 minutes) are waiting for the passenger. More rides - more waiting for passengers. With 1.75 rides/hour, 3.7 minutes of every hour will be spent waiting for the customer. The time to arrive to the pickup could go down, though, but not by much. This would happen because Uber will have more cars on the roads - and therefore closer cars to the passengers. Let's say this drops to 3.2 minutes (distance to pickup goes down a bit to 0.9), so now we have 5.6 minutes of pickup time (and 1.5 miles - up a bit from 1.4. We'll ignore that) . In total, wait/pick-up time increases to 9.5 minutes.

But wait! if the average driver is left with 12 minutes of idle time, *surges will go wild*. Surge is based on the demand vs. supply - and the supply would go down by 40% - a car is now available only 12 minutes out of every hour (vs. 20 minutes in 2015). (3)

(1) Uber reported in its 2014 3-Septembers post that the average fare was $27. I'll assume 2015 numbers were the same (if they'd increased, I'm sure Uber would've reported it in 2015). So - $27 average fare. This includes surge - which increases the average surge by ~ 10% (don't remember source) - without surge we have around $25 average fare, which includes $3 base fare, and $22 for the time and distance. How long does a ride lasts?
In the same 2014 post, we can estimate the number of trips/hour: $36.16 in fares per hour, $27.11 average fare -> 1.33 trips/hr on average. We also know that 29 minutes of every hour were "on trip" - from this we have that the average trip is 29/1.33 = 22 minutes long. At $0.4/minute, the time part of the fare is $0.4 x 22 = $8.8 and therefore the miles part is $22-$8.8=$13.2, so the average trip length is $13.2/$2.15/mile = 6.1 miles. This also gives us an average speed of 6.1 miles/22 minutes = 17 miles/hr. This seems a bit high for Manhattan (yellow cabs average 13mph) but could be possible with outer boroughs. Anyway, for 2015 Uber reports the number of minutes "on trip" increased 10% from 29 to 32. This could be either due to increased trip durations or more trips - I would guess it's the latter as otherwise Uber would have reported changes in fares. So, 1.33x1.1 = 1.46 trips/hour in 2015. Or 1.46x6.1=8.9 paid miles/hour. What about unpaid miles? Uber reports 3.4 min pickup time. At 17 miles/hour, the average pickup is 1 miles away. With 1.46 trips/hour, that's 1.4 miles spend getting to pickup every hour. In total we have about 10 miles driven every hour.
Note this assumes car doesn't move while idle... which is not exactly the case

(2) this assumes 25% Uber-tax. 
Old-time drivers paying 20% made a whopping $2/hr more - that's 10%!

(3) but if there are less car available to answer a ping - the _pickup time_ will increase - so there's even less idle time,and therefore even less availability... Let's ignore this as well

Edited to fix math. Still ignores UberPool.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> No, it does not. There is more backlash this time, maybe because he has pulled the same stunt too many times and finally passed a reasonable threshold of human expectation. The quality of service has declined to the point that people are now not exactly content just because it is cheap. Drivers are fighting to drive smarter. Cancellations and wait times are increasing. But you are correct that the Man himself could do wonders.
> 
> Does anyone proudly proclaim they drive for Uber anymore? No.
> Does he have any loyalty from any of us on the street (not his hourly employees in his buildings) Not really.
> ...


You are on the money, it's changed me for sure. Over 3000 rides, I have never cancelled on a pax once I accepted their ping unless they called like an ass and demanded to know where I was. Last Saturday I finally succumbed. I got a ping for a 2.1 surge and I was driving downtown to get them I noticed the surge went to 2.8. I cancelled the 2.1 and immediately got a 2.8. Never would have done that in the past but I guess I reached the point where you can't squeeze me any more without something bad happening and compromising my principles. Guess that means I need to get out of this racket soon.


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Disgusted Driver said:


> You are on the money, it's changed me for sure. Over 3000 rides, I have never cancelled on a pax once I accepted their ping unless they called like an ass and demanded to know where I was. Last Saturday I finally succumbed. I got a ping for a 2.1 surge and I was driving downtown to get them I noticed the surge went to 2.8. I cancelled the 2.1 and immediately got a 2.8. Never would have done that in the past but I guess I reached the point where you can't squeeze me any more without something bad happening and compromising my principles. Guess that means I need to get out of this racket soon.


I see this happening a lot by viewing much older posts here, compared to now. And the poster above you is probably on to something about Uber squeezing more surge, but have they taken dislike for the surge by passengers into consideration, or are they trying to make it look like its so popular they HAVE to surge? My market, disproves that, But I can't say about other more captive audiences. Here, they just wait it out and it increases my time between pings or forces me to take them farther away because other drivers have had to be more selective. I know only it is backfiring and hurting Uber's brand reputation a lot. Not sure they care. Honestly. The blow back seems to be splattering the drivers more than the company. In any of these attempts at getting their sympathy(riders) it now becomes a war of knowledge that a lot do t give a crap about. They are just mad at waiting, or dealing with forced surge. And any hope of tips goes out the window because they perceive we are getting over on them with a surge fare.


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> I see this happening a lot by viewing much older posts here, compared to now. And the poster above you is probably on to something about Uber squeezing more surge, but have they taken dislike for the surge by passengers into consideration, or are they trying to make it look like its so popular they HAVE to surge? My market, disproves that, But I can't say about other more captive audiences. Here, they just wait it out and it increases my time between pings or forces me to take them farther away because other drivers have had to be more selective. I know only it is backfiring and hurting Uber's brand reputation a lot. Not sure they care. Honestly. The blow back seems to be splattering the drivers more than the company. In any of these attempts at getting their sympathy(riders) it now becomes a war of knowledge that a lot do t give a crap about. They are just mad at waiting, or dealing with forced surge. And any hope of tips goes out the window because they perceive we are getting over on them with a surge fare.


In my local, big city market, surge is typical during morning and afternoon rush hour. Riders who don't want to pay surge fares have learned how to avoid requesting UberX during those times, wait until the surge multiple is more reasonable, or take shorter trips. Or, they switch to Lyft. Here in Seattle, around 2x surge seems to be something of a dividing line. That is equal to taxi rates. If you are a high-tech worker or businessman, or just taking a short trip, paying up to 2x surge for a fast and efficient UberX is still a good deal. If you are a student or working at minimum wage, obviously it may not be. Then you just wait for the bus like you always did before Uber was available. With Uber hiring anyone with a heartbeat, there are more and more drivers on the road in every Uber market. Over time, surge will become less and less common.

I don't expect UberX riders to tip me, but even if I did expect them to tip me I would not expect them to do so for a surge ride.


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Agent99 said:


> In my local, big city market, surge is typical during morning and afternoon rush hour. Riders who don't want to pay surge fares have learned how to avoid requesting UberX during those times, wait until the surge multiple is more reasonable, or take shorter trips. Or, they switch to Lyft. Here in Seattle, around 2x surge seems to be something of a dividing line. That is equal to taxi rates. If you are a high-tech worker or businessman, or just taking a short trip, paying up to 2x surge for a fast and efficient UberX is still a good deal. If you are a student or working at minimum wage, obviously it may not be. Then you just wait for the bus like you always did before Uber was available. With Uber hiring anyone with a heartbeat, there are more and more drivers on the road in every Uber market. Over time, surge will become less and less common.
> 
> I don't expect UberX riders to tip me, but even if I did expect them to tip me I would not expect them to do so for a surge ride.


Interesting, the psychology of not expecting UberX to tip and certainly not on surge.

Did you see this: http://investorplace.com/2016/02/price-cuts-undercut-possibility-uber-ipo/#.VrzSB9q9KK1 ?


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> Interesting, the psychology of not expecting UberX to tip and certainly not on surge.
> 
> Did you see this: http://investorplace.com/2016/02/price-cuts-undercut-possibility-uber-ipo/#.VrzSB9q9KK1 ?


In my market, in my experience, only around 4% of UberX passengers tip. In comparison, your area is more of a tourist market, wouldn't you agree? Is your percentage of tips better than this?

Surge rides often compensate the driver better than (or similar to how) a tip would. It is a distinction that I have not heard made by others.

Yes, I just read the article last night. Uber is going for growth at any cost.


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Agent99 said:


> In my market, in my experience, only around 4% of UberX passengers tip. In comparison, your area is more of a tourist market, wouldn't you agree? Is your percentage of tips better than this?
> 
> Surge rides often compensate the driver better than (or similar to how) a tip would. It is a distinction that I have not heard made by others.
> 
> Yes, I just read the article last night. Uber is going for growth at any cost.


 Jacksonville, Fl is not a tourist destination hot spot. Nor convention hot spot, as Orlando and other areas areas are. Our market is quite urban, most people have cars, we have crappy public transportation and taxis are sadly not keeping up with the times and are pricey with a long wait. This market is exactly what Uber wants as far as demonstrating cheap transportation can be available to all. But it does hurt the drivers. And there are plenty of them. 
And most riders do not really tip, mostly due to the former Uber concept and them not understanding economics/caring about the driver. Some do. But by and far, no. UberX has become the poor mans taxi here.


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> Jacksonville, Fl is not a tourist destination hot spot. Nor convention hot spot, as Orlando and other areas areas are. Our market is quite urban, most people have cars, we have crappy public transportation and taxis are sadly not keeping up with the times and are pricey with a long wait. This market is exactly what Uber wants as far as demonstrating cheap transportation can be available to all. But it does hurt the drivers. And there are plenty of them.
> And most riders do not really tip, mostly due to the former Uber concept and them not understanding economics/caring about the driver. Some do. But by and far, no. UberX has become the poor mans taxi here.


Oh yes, now I remember your city. Somewhere between Saint Augustine and the Georgia border. I just checked and your rate is $.65 a mile. That's horrible. Ridiculous, really. Once passengers get accustomed to rates that low, they become resistant to surge rates. Like they have a divine right to rates at 1/4 of taxi rates. It becomes an expectation where paying 1/2 of taxi rates seems unfair.


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Agent99 said:


> Oh yes, now I remember your city. Somewhere between Saint Augustine and the Georgia border. I just checked and your rate is $.65 a mile. That's horrible. Ridiculous, really. Once passengers get accustomed to rates that low, they become resistant to surge rates. Like they have a divine right. It becomes an expectation.


Sums it up nicely. So faux surge to bring it up to old norm just irritates passengers. A numbers and psychological game on the part of Uber. Con drivers into thinking they are making more, get them online, then out we go (or not) for very low fare. It is frustrating pax and drivers alike. I would suspect anyone else in this rate "zone" is experiencing the same wild swings or false swings in surge.


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> Sums it up nicely. So faux surge to bring it up to old norm just irritates passengers. A numbers and psychological game on the part of Uber. Con drivers into thinking they are making more, get them online, then out we go (or not) for very low fare. It is frustrating pax and drivers alike. I would suspect anyone else in this rate "zone" is experiencing the same wild swings or false swings in surge.


Tell me about what you claim to be fake surge. What time of the day or night, how long does it last and is there some typical multiplier that you see? I am wondering if there is some kind of recognizable pattern to it.

Also, do you have Lyft in your area?


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

sicky said:


> Here is the link to the article: http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/5/10923516/uber-travis-kalanick-drivers-facebook-medium
> 
> Travis claims that in September 2015, the average driver earned $39.30 per hour. His audacity is quite stunning. Too bad the media just reports what Travis states and doesn't bother speaking with drivers.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately this only enforces the reason why UBER/ Google/ Lyft-GM and others are marching towards driverless cars.

The more "successful " driver actions are to secure higher pay rates become, the greater the motivation to roll out robot cars.

We will no be having this conversation in 2020.


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Agent99 said:


> Tell me about what you claim to be fake surge. What time of the day or night, how long does it last and is there some typical multiplier that you see? I am wondering if there is some kind of recognizable pattern to it.
> 
> Also, do you have Lyft in your area?


1. Yes, we have Lyft. Extremely small market share and basic public perception (based on my informal survey of my talking passengers) is that it is inferior based on age of cars, and quality of drivers. I hope that might change, but for now, doubt it unless Lyft does something to legitimately incentivize drivers to use them exclusively. Because we are a small market, don't see it happening. In other words, their initial market concept didn't play well here.

2. Regarding fake/suspect surge. If you watch the driver app long enough in Jacksonville, you will see it swirls, almost like a toilet bowl, every few minutes and only to 1.5 at highest during the daytime in the suburbs. Maybe 2.0 in the evening rush hour. And watching the passenger app, I track cars flood out to those areas, following it around. Then, of course it disappears. (Demand/supply mentality) in the areas this happens average wait time is either greater than ten minutes or will flat out say no UberX/XL available. Again, these are mostly suburban areas. In areas of higher daytime traffic, rarely does it surge at all, but of course lately, lots of cars there. Also, like clockwork, in the burbs, when schools let out, it surges, whether on not there are ten cars out there or one. (Opportunistic surge) but again, no higher than 1.8. And yes, I watch and write it down for my own driving habits. I am so minute I will watch a single car on the app and see when it pings out/ goes off line, or drives away when the surge disappears. Which happens more than them going offline. (Don't judge me, I am a detail person and Uber is too grey with statistics for my taste, but I know these neighborhoods, and usual distance to pick up is legitimately at least ten minutes, and money loser for most drivers.

Several times, I have gone online willing to risk the greater than ten minute/drive, just to query passengers. (Not joking). After their gratitude for my actually showing up, I get all the details on how I am the fourth of greater driver to answer the ping. They get the calls asking destination and requests to cancel, etc., or drivers just never showing, and I ask them if they waited out the surge. Most say yes. Sadly I am using the job more for data collection because it's bothering me. The whole process, which makes me sound biased, I know.


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## Beachbum in a cornfield (Aug 28, 2014)

JaxUbermom said:


> I see this happening a lot by viewing much older posts here, compared to now. And the poster above you is probably on to something about Uber squeezing more surge, but have they taken dislike for the surge by passengers into consideration, or are they trying to make it look like its so popular they HAVE to surge? My market, disproves that, But I can't say about other more captive audiences. Here, they just wait it out and it increases my time between pings or forces me to take them farther away because other drivers have had to be more selective. I know only it is backfiring and hurting Uber's brand reputation a lot. Not sure they care. Honestly. The blow back seems to be splattering the drivers more than the company. In any of these attempts at getting their sympathy(riders) it now becomes a war of knowledge that a lot do t give a crap about. They are just mad at waiting, or dealing with forced surge. And any hope of tips goes out the window because they perceive we are getting over on them with a surge fare.


"Not sure they care"

If what you say is true mom, then Uber is doomed. A rideshare' co.s reputation must be very positive otherwise people will not trust them and ridership will decrease causing drivers to venture elsewhere (Uber has plenty of competition)....I am a 3000 plus x driver and am told I am top rated in my market (that distinction may be over because I have cut way back on working with Uber) and have learned there are better ways to make ride share opportunities pay. But if what you say is true then GM's recent investment in Lyft will pay off handsomely.


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## metal_orion (May 14, 2015)

How the f*ck does Samuel Nunez make $416.00 dollars per day? Does it mean he has to fully work 72 hours a week or 3 full days?


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## Shark11 (Aug 5, 2015)

What happens when/if gas prices turn higher. That's more improved margin that has been absorbed and forgotten as prices came down.


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## Agent99 (Nov 4, 2015)

JaxUbermom said:


> 2. Regarding fake/suspect surge. If you watch the driver app long enough in Jacksonville, you will see it swirls, almost like a toilet bowl, every few minutes and only to 1.5 at highest during the daytime in the suburbs. Maybe 2.0 in the evening rush hour. And watching the passenger app, I track cars flood out to those areas, following it around. Then, of course it disappears. (Demand/supply mentality) in the areas this happens average wait time is either greater than ten minutes or will flat out say no UberX/XL available. Again, these are mostly suburban areas. In areas of higher daytime traffic, rarely does it surge at all, but of course lately, lots of cars there. Also, like clockwork, in the burbs, when schools let out, it surges, whether on not there are ten cars out there or one. (Opportunistic surge) but again, no higher than 1.8. And yes, I watch and write it down for my own driving habits. I am so minute I will watch a single car on the app and see when it pings out/ goes off line, or drives away when the surge disappears. Which happens more than them going offline. (Don't judge me, I am a detail person and Uber is too grey with statistics for my taste, but I know these neighborhoods, and usual distance to pick up is legitimately at least ten minutes, and money loser for most drivers.
> 
> Several times, I have gone online willing to risk the greater than ten minute/drive, just to query passengers. (Not joking). After their gratitude for my actually showing up, I get all the details on how I am the fourth of greater driver to answer the ping. They get the calls asking destination and requests to cancel, etc., or drivers just never showing, and I ask them if they waited out the surge. Most say yes. Sadly I am using the job more for data collection because it's bothering me. The whole process, which makes me sound biased, I know.


What I think you're saying is that you think Uber is turning on surge in the suburbs, not because there's high demand there but purely to attract more drivers to those areas. Am I getting this right? I will point out that, in theory, if there's no cars available so that the nearest one is 10 minutes away, it could be expected that it wouldn't take too many requests to get surge to start up.


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## John Deer (Feb 12, 2015)

Sydney Uber said:


> We will no be having this conversation in 2020.


Autonomous cars are coming - but it will take much longer than 4 years.
Even if we ignore technology challenges (it's one thing to drive around Mountain View, quite another driving the streets of Manhattan) the legal and political challenges are formidable. Just think of the outrage first person killed by an autonomous car; fear of terror-by-car, etc.

The funny version of being at the mercy of an autonomous car:


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## JaxUbermom (Jan 26, 2016)

Agent99 said:


> What I think you're saying is that you think Uber is turning on surge in the suburbs, not because there's high demand there but purely to attract more drivers to those areas. Am I getting this right? I will point out that, in theory, if there's no cars available so that the nearest one is 10 minutes away, it could be expected that it wouldn't take too many requests to get surge to start up.


Yes. And understand that is partly how it should work.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

sicky said:


> Here is the link to the article: http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/5/10923516/uber-travis-kalanick-drivers-facebook-medium
> 
> Travis claims that in September 2015, the average driver earned $39.30 per hour. His audacity is quite stunning. Too bad the media just reports what Travis states and doesn't bother speaking with drivers.
> 
> ...


D. A. R. P. A. /GOOGLE BIG BROTHER CARS will pick up chipped passengers using Google facial recognition and dispense mints and water. 
YOU can apply for a job cleaning the defense contractor D. A. R. P.A. 's cars.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

John Deer said:


> Autonomous cars are coming - but it will take much longer than 4 years.
> Even if we ignore technology challenges (it's one thing to drive around Mountain View, quite another driving the streets of Manhattan) the legal and political challenges are formidable. Just think of the outrage first person killed by an autonomous car; fear of terror-by-car, etc.
> 
> The funny version of being at the mercy of an autonomous car:


Cars will be hijacked by hacker pirates , and passengers will be held for ransom.


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

sicky said:


> Here is the link to the article: http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/5/10923516/uber-travis-kalanick-drivers-facebook-medium
> 
> Travis claims that in September 2015, the average driver earned $39.30 per hour. His audacity is quite stunning. Too bad the media just reports what Travis states and doesn't bother speaking with drivers.
> 
> ...


POST # 1/sicky: "Ahoy!" and Welcome
to UP.Net Forums from
Mostly Dark...overnight...Marco Island
on Florida's Wild SSW Coast.

NICE JOB with a "Featured Thread" only
7 weeks into Your Membership. Too
bad that Fratty Boi thinks that a FIVE
MONTH OLD BlogPost would constitute
dealing with Drivers in RealTime, 3 hours
later.

Let me clue You in to the Sociopathic,
AynRand-Worshipping Hypomanic
Mind of #[T]Ruthless Leader, the Former
Mussolini of Market St. [he has made a
Low Key evacuation to a NewHQ in Smoky
"Oaksterdam" over in the East Bay...BTW.]

Both 6th Notable Sydney Uber and my-
self are of One Mind in being CONVINCED
that T.K. is living out a Real Life Fantasy
as "Big Brother" the Totalitarian Electronic
Overload Antagonist, from George Orwell's
Dystopian Novel "1984".

His IT Minions perfect Surveillance via
the "Permissions" required to Download
"The App" and Sign On everyday. How
many Drivers reading THIS realize that
#[F]Uber can activate YOUR Phone's Mike
AND Camera...even if it is Powered OFF?
Whaddaya think that the Kakanicky
shows his #Vulture Capital Fan Bois on
Casual Fridays after WOWing the
"Whales" with a Godview Presentation?

Even creepier than THAT thought, is the
FACT that #[F]Uber Employees and Con-
tract Staff are Brainwashed into treating
Drivers as a SubHuman "commodity"...
yeah, with a SMALL "c". Witness this
Inhumanity-on-Display in a 20Feb'15
"Complaints" Thread by THEN Departing
L.I.C.,Queens "Ex-CSR...with Equity"
john djjjoe, who, with Hubri$ and
Contempt, castigates the ENTIRE Mem-
bership for not being able to wrap their
tiny heads around why "Drivers Don't
Matter...Much":
https://uberpeople.net/posts/187189

☆ ☆ THE TRUTH ABOUT [F]UBER ☆ ☆ 
Avarice+Deceit+Hubri$+Schadenfreude


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Ca$h4 said:


> The IMPACT of "SELF REGULATION" by Uber to *control both prices and the number of cars* it puts on the road in each city results in Monopoly profits for Uber and poverty wages for Drivers. Uber is essencially a political entity that exercises political power to secure monopoly pricing power. Uber Speak and Uber Math result in Ubernomics that claims Drivers make more earnings when Uber lowers rates. Ubernomics is as false as "trickle down economics." Drivers make less wages/hr not more. Silicon Valley is promoting Monopolies which are impoverishing workers.
> 
> *http://www.nelp.org/commentary/newsweek-ubers-labor-relations-is-driving-it-into-a-ditch/*


POST # 3/Ca$h4: Bostonian Bison
Thanks YOU for this
Hyperlinked N.E.L.P.org Article [reprint-
ed from Newsweek...ahem!] in which
the Author utilized one of my Favorite
Invective Terms in describing T.K.'s
Feverish-Homage-to-AynRand-come-to-
Frankensteinian-Life as a "Scofflaw
Business model".

Bison: A Woman after my Own ♡ !


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

JaxUbermom said:


> I cross posted this to the NY protest thread.
> New York cannot be used as the norm, the median, the anything. One, they all go through a lot more to drive than your average UberX driver that right now sweats whether they even have coverage in period one in their family car. I am not dogging these people, only pointing out the differences so NY drivers and other groups get the bits of respect they do, for going through the legal hoops to drive there. Please note that as such their rates may have dropped but are the highest in the country, yes? They have fees and things to make that about on par with the rest of us.
> 
> This pushback needs to grow and it needs to happen. This guy is either completely duplicitous or clueless or both.


POST # 2/JaxUbermom: To add UPNF
Historical Authenticity
to Your Contention about the "Truthiness"
of #[T]Ruthless Leader let me provide a
Quote from St. Comity of Chicago, Our #1
Notable Member chi1cabby, who LONG
ago described his Mission as Attempting
to "Shine a light on their Bottomless Du-
plicity." THE KAKANICKY IS EVIL !

P.O.ed Bison: RocketSled-2-HELL-4U-T.K.!


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

kbrown said:


> Actually, I now make $40 per online hour since the rate cuts. Here's how I do it:
> 
> 
> Acceptance rate below 70%
> ...


POST # 9/kbrown: "Ahoy!"and Welcome
to UP.Net Forums from
FINALLY back to 70°F Marco Island on
Florida's Wild SSW Coast.

Nice Post...very Realityshark ish!
Bison Admires. Bison Inspires!


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

MBENZ_GUY said:


> The rise was meteoric... the collapse will be epic, unless changes are made.


POST # 32/MBENZ_GUY: The Rise WAS
Meteoric. The Demise
will be M E T E O R I T E - I S H.

Bison Chortling!


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

Tim In Cleveland said:


> Funny, Sherpashare shows DECREASING wages even before the last cuts.


POST # 17/Tim In Cleveland: Tim, I count
29 UP Arrows
and 6 DOWN Arrows. Are you referring
to a Different Graphic for "Decreasing
Gross Fares"? I understand your point,
but your Selected Graphic CONTRA-
DICTS.....YOU !


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## Casuale Haberdasher (Dec 7, 2014)

sammy44 said:


> i dont get it.
> how can hourly earning keep going up while the rate keeps going down?


POST # 34/sammy44: F I F T E E N
M O N T H S here and
you "don't get it" ? S E R I O U S L Y ?

☆ ☆ THE TRUTH ABOUT #[F]UBER ☆ ☆
Avarice+Deceit+Hubri$+Schadenfreude


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## Tim In Cleveland (Jul 28, 2014)

It's not the graphic I tried to attach, sorry. It showed year over year and a decrease per ride.


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## Shark11 (Aug 5, 2015)

Here in the NYC area (for me outside NYC) as elsewhere the rate cuts are hurting drivers badly and creating animosity. If the price of gasoline turns around (not likely) it will me more painful

The Surge is a freaking joke, like catching flies on a hot Summer day. We all know not to "chase the surge" experienced drivers will try and anticipate the surge. Too me it's distracting. It's the one thing that pisses off customers.

My plan is to eliminate the Surge and show area of activity... To counter this and protect UBER from imploding. RAISE rate across the board to just below TAXI rates. Passengers who use UBER hate taxis. They are expensive with low quality vehicles and in many cases low quality drivers.

I want to smash my head against the dash when I drive 12 minutes for a minimum rate trip that nets me $3.20 Are you freaking kidding me?

UBER has a stable of high quality drivers that are motivated... provide the best service and .*you will eventually win* This is my own opinion and hopefully today was my last day driving because I met someone that has offered me a great opportunity in the Outer Banks of NC that will be a better second job than UBER. BE safe.


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## GILD (Feb 8, 2016)

These lying no good, You know they say driver earnings have gone up, but they fail to mention they say driver gets $7 for a fare. They dont uber gets "paid" by driver to do service. so from OUR $7 we pay uber $4, we collect $3!. Look at your tax 1099 uber gives you. It includes ALL of uber fees as if you were paid the whole amount of every Fare! Then you have to remove ubers part FIRST, by trying to figure our how much you got paid by razor from the BS number they put on your 1099. its a way of pushing off their earnings onto your tax return. and making you a contractor vs employee. your getting the screws, make sure you know how to deal with each thing uber wants of you.
This lie earnings have gone up for drivers is talking about TOTAL fares to uber and to you. BUT YOUR SHARE HAS NOT GONE UP! Ubers has.
in other words since we know drivers have not made more net pay, Ubers share has gone up $300 a week per driver!

AGAIN:
Uber says its drivers earned an average gross $39.30 an hour last September, which was 6.3 percent more than the hourly wage year over year.

That says UBER total gross for fares went up 6.3%, but drivers net pay went down! ubers SHARE of those fares went up!
$39 an hour - 1.70 safe rider fee x 3 and hour. $39-$5 = $34 hour - $8.5 hour for ubers 25% take, minus $2 city fees an hour. This leaves drivers at $23 an hour back in september before rate cuts by another 20%. $18 hour in big cities like new york, NOT too bad except it is only possible to make that statement cause of surge and most drivers are weekend drivers at night. so $18 an hour at night on weekends to drivers is what is the truth, $9 hr or less during the week is more likely. Lets get some truth to that lie of $39 an hour. Uber is taking $13 an hour of that, and city $2 of that. oh pay for gas out of your $18 hr and your closer to $14 an hour on weekend warrior and $5 an hour durring the week. The beauty is ubers share remains $13 no matter your problems! per driver. So sign up more drivers! and that is exactly why you should not do that to your friends, unless you want them to make $4 an hour along with you. ugg.


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## John Deer (Feb 12, 2015)

Shark11 said:


> The Surge is a freaking joke, like catching flies on a hot Summer day. We all know not to "chase the surge" experienced drivers will try and anticipate the surge.


If experienced drivers expect the surge - why do we have surges in the first place? If there are enough cars available, there shouldn't be any surge... 
As for "chase the surge" - this is similar to what happens in the economy - everyone go nuts about the new Gadget - production can't keep up - so everyone goes and builds a factory to manufacture Gadget. A year later, all the shiny new factories are flooding the market with Gadgets - but now everyone wants Widget.


Shark11 said:


> Too me it's distracting. It's the one thing that pisses off customers.
> My plan is to eliminate the Surge and show area of activity...


Uber is not going to let go of surge. It's main function is not to increase _supply_ but do dampen _demand_. The surge will keep rising until most customers would decide the price is too high and they'd rather walk/take the subway...



Shark11 said:


> To counter this and protect UBER from imploding. RAISE rate across the board to just below TAXI rates. Passengers who use UBER hate taxis. They are expensive with low quality vehicles and in many cases low quality drivers.


Why would Uber implode?
Anyway - Uber wants the price _lower_ than it is now - as they expect the demand will increase faster than the loss by the price cut. They're not going to implode if they let go of surge pricing. Instead, the wait times will increase, and some won't be able to get a car (instead of now some not able/willing to _afford_ a car)


Shark11 said:


> I want to smash my head against the dash when I drive 12 minutes for a minimum rate trip that nets me $3.20 Are you freaking kidding me?


We're not talking NYC, right?
Anyway - if driving Uber doesn't make sense - do something else.
I guess this is another thing Uber is trying to gauge - how low can they drop fares and _still _have drivers.
As long as Uber can easily recruit new drivers, it means they overpay for the drivers they have.
Cruel? sure, but that's how Uber thinks.



Shark11 said:


> UBER has a stable of high quality drivers that are motivated... provide the best service and .*you will eventually win* This is my own opinion and hopefully today was my last day driving because I met someone that has offered me a great opportunity in the Outer Banks of NC that will be a better second job than UBER. BE safe.


It seems to me you are trying to protect Uber of itself. Uber doesn't need your protecting... they understand perfectly what they are doing.
As long as high-quality drivers are willing to work for Uber, sure - Uber wins, customers win (I guess), and drivers lose.
At some places (calling Detroit../.), the fare is so low that people basically _pay Uber_ for the right to take customers.


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## John Deer (Feb 12, 2015)

GILD said:


> These lying no good, You know they say driver earnings have gone up, but they fail to mention they say driver gets $7 for a fare. They dont uber gets "paid" by driver to do service. so from OUR $7 we pay uber $4, we collect $3!. Look at your tax 1099 uber gives you. It includes ALL of uber fees as if you were paid the whole amount of every Fare! Then you have to remove ubers part FIRST, by trying to figure our how much you got paid by razor from the BS number they put on your 1099. its a way of pushing off their earnings onto your tax return. and making you a contractor vs employee. your getting the screws, make sure you know how to deal with each thing uber wants of you.
> This lie earnings have gone up for drivers is talking about TOTAL fares to uber and to you. BUT YOUR SHARE HAS NOT GONE UP! Ubers has.
> in other words since we know drivers have not made more net pay, Ubers share has gone up $300 a week per driver!
> 
> ...


You seem to forget the cost of the _car_. This depends on a lot of parameters but I think $0.3-$0.5 per mile is a likely figure (for UberX). So, those $18 are now more like $13... how much are they paying at McDonalds?


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## Shark11 (Aug 5, 2015)

John Deer said:


> If experienced drivers expect the surge - why do we have surges in the first place? If there are enough cars available, there shouldn't be any surge...
> As for "chase the surge" - this is similar to what happens in the economy - everyone go nuts about the new Gadget - production can't keep up - so everyone goes and builds a factory to manufacture Gadget. A year later, all the shiny new factories are flooding the market with Gadgets - but now everyone wants Widget.
> 
> Uber is not going to let go of surge. It's main function is not to increase _supply_ but do dampen _demand_. The surge will keep rising until most customers would decide the price is too high and they'd rather walk/take the subway...
> ...


I am in no way protecting UBER. I think it's a shame. I have a real job, a great job. UBER keeps me busy and now I am done thankfully. Good luck "partners".


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## Shine'ola (Oct 7, 2014)

Lucky for me, Howard gave me my job back that pays $12 an hour jerking off midgets live on Sirius XM. It's actually a more nobel job than driving ungreatfulls around for free while trashing my car. I feel sorry for the tards in Orlando driving for 65 cents a mile trying and trying to make that new car payment, well it was new last year when rates were $1.50 a mile..


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

naplestom75 said:


> They probably count the hours actually "in-trip" and not on-line.


Not 'probably'. That IS what they use for $/hr. They track 'app-on' time only for calculating incentives qualifications.


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## Cou-ber (Jul 23, 2015)

sammy44 said:


> i dont get it.
> how can hourly earning keep going up while the rate keeps going down?


They aren't adjusting the numbers for the srf increases.


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## Peppino (Dec 2, 2015)

Bart McCoy said:


> He found a puppet to say he makes $60,000 /year while only workin 3 days a week. Probably 16hr shifts though......to be making $1,000/week in 3 days


It can be done nyc Times Square location but $60,000 workings 3 days per week is gross earnings , what you really take home is maybe 2/3 of that


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## John Deer (Feb 12, 2015)

Peppino said:


> It can be done nyc Times Square location but $60,000 workings 3 days per week is gross earnings , what you really take home is maybe 2/3 of that


Out of $100 in gross earnings, $25 go to Uber, and another ~ $11 or so to sales tax & black car fund - so you end up with slightly less than 2/3.
But don't forget this is _before_ costs such as fuel, insurance, car maintenance, ... let's say $15,000/year?
So, from $60,000, you're left with $25,000 or so.


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## TwoFiddyMile (Mar 13, 2015)

John Deer said:


> Out of $100 in gross earnings, $25 go to Uber, and another ~ $11 or so to sales tax & black car fund - so you end up with slightly less than 2/3.
> But don't forget this is _before_ costs such as fuel, insurance, car maintenance, ... let's say $15,000/year?
> So, from $60,000, you're left with $25,000 or so.


Exactly.


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