# FlexFuel and E85 gasoline



## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

I can't believe how much money I am saving at the moment driving a FlexFuel Ford Focus. Currently in Colorado I can find 87 octane fuel which counts as mid-grade here for $2.80 to $3.00 per gallon. The cheapest 85 octane, which I can't use in the cars I have driven, costs more like $2.60 per gallon. E85 (ethanol-heavy) fuel costs *$2.25 per gallon*. Thanks Obama.

That is an obscene amount of savings per mile. It's probably more money saved on a mid-30s mpg car than driving an equivalent hybrid.

Anyone else finding this sort of saving in their markets?


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## losiglow (Dec 4, 2018)

Nope. It's not widespread here in Utah. Good it's saving you some $$$ though. 

I've always had a problem with that gas stations name however.....


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

losiglow said:


> I've always had a problem with that gas stations name however.....


.....why
Would u rather Kum & Stay ?


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

I don’t care what they are called as long as they sell me federally subsidized corn oil for 20% off what I typically pay. E85 isn’t sold at most Colorado gas stations so I may have to fill up a couple of gallons of 87 per week so I can make it to places that do sell it.


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## amazinghl (Oct 31, 2018)

You'll get about 30% less per MPG on E85 than you would gasoline because E85 contain less energy than gasoline.

At 2.25/3 = 75%... so you're really not saving anything with the MPG lost.


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## peteyvavs (Nov 18, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> I can't believe how much money I am saving at the moment driving a FlexFuel Ford Focus. Currently in Colorado I can find 87 octane fuel which counts as mid-grade here for $2.80 to $3.00 per gallon. The cheapest 85 octane, which I can't use in the cars I have driven, costs more like $2.60 per gallon. E85 (ethanol-heavy) fuel costs *$2.25 per gallon*. Thanks Obama.
> 
> That is an obscene amount of savings per mile. It's probably more money saved on a mid-30s mpg car than driving an equivalent hybrid.
> 
> ...


I'll bet that I still save more with my Prius


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

@amazinghl I had heard there was some loss but I hadn't heard it was 30%. The break-even point on cost at these fuel prices is around a 24% loss. I'll have to see whether my fuel economy really goes down from ~35mpg to 26mpg (or even worse the full 30% at 24.5mpg).

I just looked up the numbers and the fuel economy loss in mixed driving is around 26% for the Ford Focus in question. If that's true in real world economy usage, it's the same cost with 87 vs E85 at these prices. Source: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfuel/FFV2016.shtml


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## amazinghl (Oct 31, 2018)

waldowainthrop said:


> @amazinghl I had heard there was some loss but I hadn't heard it was 30%. The break-even point on cost at these fuel prices is around a 24% loss. I'll have to see whether my fuel economy really goes down from ~35mpg to 26mpg (or even worse the full 30% at 24.5mpg).


Yup, it'll be interesting to see.

I use E85 on my Dodge Omni for its octane 110 property. Boost is addicted.


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

Ethonol in gasoline reduces MPG's.

The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than pure gasoline. It started in 1990.


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

*⛽ Ethanol's* lower energy density leads to
*worse gas mileage*, which is why using E85 (E85 is 85 percent *ethanol*) in cars with a fuel system that accommodate it is usually a *bad idea.

"MPG.*_ Due to ethanol's lower energy content, FFVs operating on E85 get roughly 15% to 27% fewer miles per gallon than when operating on regular gasoline, depending on the ethanol content. Regular gasoline typically contains about 10% ethanol."_

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ethanol.shtml


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Ssgcraig said:


> Ethonol in gasoline reduces MPG's.
> 
> The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than pure gasoline. It started in 1990.


Except pure gasoline isn't commonly sold in the US. Most gasoline has 10% ethanol content.

I don't care about mpg, I care about cost per mile. Cost per mile is affected by a lot more than mpg and cost per gallon, but I'll have to experiment to see if the true economy losses are closer to 30% or closer to 15%. At 15% energy loss, I'm saving more than a dollar per 300 miles which is worth doing at the very least.


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

ETHONOL benefits Farmers of plant material, such as corn, sugar cane, or grasses which makes ETHONOL 
Not Car Owners


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> Except pure gasoline isn't commonly sold in the US. Most gasoline has 10% ethanol content. I don't care about mpg, I care about cost per mile. Cost per mile is affected by a lot more than mpg and cost per gallon, but I'll have to experiment to see if the true economy losses are closer to 30% or closer to 15%. At 15% energy loss, I'm saving more than a dollar per 300 miles which is worth doing at the very least.


Math, equals cost per mile. You have to take what you are paying and how much energy you are losing for the extra 75% ethanol.

Pure gasoline hasn't been sold since 1990 I think, 10% is mandatory. It's a crock of shit, but we keep putting it into our cars and never ask questions.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Cold Fusion said:


> ETHONOL benefits Farmers of plant material, such as corn, sugar cane, or grasses which makes ETHONOL
> Not Car Owners


I am totally aware of the economics behind corn and other crops. This is about the raw economics of the price of a gallon of something that moves my car down the road. It's political, but I'm not interested in the politics of it at this granular level. Both crude oil and corn ethanol are absolutely awful for the environment. I don't have any illusions about ethanol being "green" or efficient or cheap by the nature of its production.

As far as I understand, a FlexFuel car doesn't care how much ethanol is in the gas as long as it is somewhere between conventional and E85 spec. The car is not being harmed by putting in the recommended fuel, so the only question is which is cheaper per mile.


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> I am totally aware of the economics behind corn and other crops. This is about the raw economics of the price of a gallon of something that moves my car down the road. It's political, but I'm not interested in the politics of it at this granular level. Both crude oil and corn ethanol are absolutely awful for the environment. I don't have any illusions about ethanol being "green" or efficient or cheap by the nature of its production.
> 
> As far as I understand, a FlexFuel car doesn't care how much ethanol is in the gas as long as it is somewhere between conventional and E85 spec. The car is not being harmed by putting in the recommended fuel, so the only question is which is cheaper per mile.


Price per gallon savings $$

MPG lost per tank

Equals?

I would guess a loss, but I don't remember what you are saving per gallon.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Ssgcraig said:


> Math, equals cost per mile. You have to take what you are paying and how much energy you are losing for the extra 75% ethanol.
> 
> Pure gasoline hasn't been sold since 1990 I think, 10% is mandatory. It's a crock of shit, but we keep putting it into our cars and never ask questions.


Yep, I've done the math. If I lose more than 24% energy in this particular car with these particular gas prices, I'm better off with 87. If I lose less, I'm saving money with E85. If I were really penny pinching I'd put 85 in the car, but I'm pretty sure that most cars (Toyota Prius included, as are most small turbo engines) have a risk of knock below 87 octane that I wouldn't subject a car I care about to.


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> Yep, I've done the math. If I lose more than 24% energy in this particular car with these particular gas prices, I'm better off with 87. If I lose less, I'm saving money with E85.


The impact of fuel ethanol on vehicle fuel economy varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol.


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## ssahin1977 (Apr 11, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> I can't believe how much money I am saving at the moment driving a FlexFuel Ford Focus. Currently in Colorado I can find 87 octane fuel which counts as mid-grade here for $2.80 to $3.00 per gallon. The cheapest 85 octane, which I can't use in the cars I have driven, costs more like $2.60 per gallon. E85 (ethanol-heavy) fuel costs *$2.25 per gallon*. Thanks Obama.
> 
> That is an obscene amount of savings per mile. It's probably more money saved on a mid-30s mpg car than driving an equivalent hybrid.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that E85 will give you lower mpg then 87 which makes driving cost similar to use either of them.


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## kingcorey321 (May 20, 2018)

amazinghl said:


> You'll get about 30% less per MPG on E85 than you would gasoline because E85 contain less energy than gasoline.
> 
> At 2.25/3 = 75%... so you're really not saving anything with the MPG lost.


only 30 ? when i tested it in a chevy silverado truck it was half the miles as reg fuel. going 77 the gas petal was half way to the floor no horse power . mixing this fuel just robbed horse power and murdered the fuel .


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

kingcorey321 said:


> only 30 ? when i tested it in a chevy silverado truck it was half the miles as reg fuel. going 77 the gas petal was half way to the floor no horse power . mixing this fuel just robbed horse power and murdered the fuel .


Pedal to the metal at 77mph in a pickup &#8230; doing rideshare? That's a different game altogether, and at those extremes you probably have a lot of variability in economy. I feel bad about my profits and my economy driving 75+ in an economy car that gets 35-40mpg on the highway.

I'll report back and see what my fuel economy looks like once I actually manage to get a full tank of E85 with no 87 mixed in. It was mid-30s with 87 and if it's high-20s with E85 there is definitely some money being saved. If it's below 26.25mpg (versus a hypothetical 35mpg), it's a loss.


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## kingcorey321 (May 20, 2018)

waldowainthrop said:


> Pedal to the metal at 77mph in a pickup &#8230; doing rideshare? That's a different game altogether, and at those extremes you probably have a lot of variability in economy. I feel bad about my profits and my economy driving 75+ in an economy car that gets 35-40mpg on the highway.
> 
> I'll report back and see what my fuel economy looks like once I actually manage to get a full tank of E85 with no 87 mixed in. It was mid-30s with 87 and if it's high-20s with E85 there is definitely some money being saved. If it's below 26.25mpg (versus a hypothetical 35mpg), it's a loss.


no it was not ride share .


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

kingcorey321 said:


> no it was not ride share .


I guessed as much - I'm just saying that the losses might be closer to 30% under normal operating conditions. Most cars struggle when pushed to the limit, and as hard as rideshare drivers are on their cars, there's less money being made when you're flooring it on the highway.

In one model of Silverado, the EPA reported 26% losses (same as the reported losses for the Ford Focus). Source: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfuel/FFV2016.shtml


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

Ssgcraig said:


> Price per gallon savings $$
> 
> MPG lost per tank
> 
> ...


Maybe Running in place


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## amazinghl (Oct 31, 2018)

kingcorey321 said:


> only 30 ? when i tested it in a chevy silverado truck it was half the miles as reg fuel. going 77 the gas petal was half way to the floor no horse power . mixing this fuel just robbed horse power and murdered the fuel .


No issue with E85 and power here from a turbocharged 2.2L.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

And to think I complained getting 93 octane at Sam's today for $2.30 a gallon....


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Dekero said:


> And to think I complained getting 93 octane at Sam's today for $2.30 a gallon....


Wow, that is absurdly cheap. You can't even buy 93 in Colorado and 91 costs $3-3.50ish.


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## Uber_Yota_916 (May 1, 2017)

Flex fuel is good for returning rentals that can use the garbage.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Uber_Yota_916 said:


> Flex fuel is good for returning rentals that can use the garbage.


I see where you are coming from but Ford actually recommends using the stuff in its FlexFuel cars.


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## lyft_rat (Jul 1, 2019)

Dekero said:


> And to think I complained getting 93 octane at Sam's today for $2.30 a gallon....


Are you shitting us? Maybe a coupon discount for buying shit you didn't really need? Fantastic price! I am happy with $2.35 for regular but got to shop around to find it. Then the right credit card will get you down a few more cents so I am at about $2.28 for 87 octane.


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

Cold Fusion said:


> Maybe Running in place


Huh?


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

Ssgcraig said:


> Pure gasoline hasn't been sold since 1990 I think, 10% is mandatory. It's a crock of shit, but we keep putting it into our cars and never ask questions.


It's still available. Cost a little more, but I use it in my lawnmowers, stuff like that. I run the 10% in my vehicles.


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## OrlUberOffDriver (Oct 27, 2014)

Here is my numbers on E85 v Premium on a MB C300
There a reduction of about 13% in MPG's with E85


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## kingcorey321 (May 20, 2018)

amazinghl said:


> No issue with E85 and power here from a turbocharged 2.2L.
> 
> View attachment 371948


ok that is a turbo charged . i filled the tank drove and refilled it back up to check it .
ill have to post more info on the truck . it was a 2012 chevy silverado with a 5.3 liter was brand new when i put that e85 in.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

lyft_rat said:


> Are you shitting us? Maybe a coupon discount for buying shit you didn't really need? Fantastic price! I am happy with $2.35 for regular but got to shop around to find it. Then the right credit card will get you down a few more cents so I am at about $2.28 for 87 octane.


Nope it's $2.30 a gallon for premium at the sams down the street... apparently I need to be thankful!!


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

Dekero said:


> Nope it's $2.30 a gallon for premium at the sams down the street... apparently I need to be thankful!!


u live "down the street" from Mega discounter Sams.
Do Sam's customers block ur trailer door with their parked cars?


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## VictorD (Apr 30, 2017)




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## Fargle (May 28, 2017)

Get some non-alcoholic gasoline sometime. The mileage boost is invigorating. I'm currently gathering data to figure out how much the gasoline costs per mile versus alcoholic gasoline.


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## QBN_PC (Aug 2, 2019)

I try to never put any of that rubbish in my car. Except that several servos I use seem to adulterate their U91 with Ethanol. It's not like I'm driving a rental. I'm trying to stay in business, so I need to keep my car operational. That means finding servos that sell real U91, and I've found a few.

There's only 3 reasons to recommend or use Ethanol:
* Force you to service & replace your car more frequently (keeping mechanics and car dealerships in business), and
* Make it appear like your rental car was returned with a full tank.
* Give farmers and processors unnecessary subsidies to make them want to grow unnecessary crops to produce unwanted and unnecessary fuel.

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/humans-of-betoota/dirty-tank-e10/


> A soon-to-be returned rental car has today been exposed to a much cheaper 10% ethanol blend, in what local mechanics describe as a callous act of auto-vandalism.
> Kylie Lee (36), a transient motorist only visiting town for a couple of days told our reporters that she spent several minutes weighing up the decision, before ultimately deciding she really couldn't give a **** about the longevity of an engine in a vehicle she doesn't own.
> "Betoota is a lovely place to visit" she said.
> "And I understand there would be a lot of freight attached to getting fuel out here&#8230;"
> ...


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## jlong105 (Sep 15, 2017)

waldowainthrop said:


> I can't believe how much money I am saving at the moment driving a FlexFuel Ford Focus. Currently in Colorado I can find 87 octane fuel which counts as mid-grade here for $2.80 to $3.00 per gallon. The cheapest 85 octane, which I can't use in the cars I have driven, costs more like $2.60 per gallon. E85 (ethanol-heavy) fuel costs *$2.25 per gallon*. Thanks Obama.
> 
> That is an obscene amount of savings per mile. It's probably more money saved on a mid-30s mpg car than driving an equivalent hybrid.
> 
> ...


Thanks Obama??

Do you mean Bush E85 has been available since 2000.


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

Uber's Guber said:


> It's still available. Cost a little more, but I use it in my lawnmowers, stuff like that. I run the 10% in my vehicles.


Where do you buy gasoline that doesn't have 10% ethanol in it? Is it racing fuel?


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## Jsaxophone (Nov 9, 2017)

Just throwing some figures out there:

1. 1.5 gallons of ethanol has the same energy content as 1.0 gallon of gasoline. A flex-fuel vehicle will experience about 76% of the fuel mileage MPG when using E85 (85% ethanol) products as compared to 100% gasoline. ... Pure ethanol provides 2/3 of the heat value available in pure gasoline. 

2. Most "gasoline" is E-10, so it closes the gap. No one is putting pure gasoline in their car, today.

3. Most "Flex Fuel" or E-85 vehicles are optimized for E-85, which can run higher cylinder pressures at cooler combustion temperatures (both better for power, fuel efficiency, and better for the environment).

All factors considered, you will probably see about a 15% increase in volume fuel consumption with E-85 over E-10, you really can't get around the fact that E-85 has less energy density, even if your car runs better on it. If you're buying E-85, you need to be VERY sure that you're getting more than 15% (or your specific efficiency loss) off the retail price.

Also, side note, cooler combustion is better for the environment, but it can also leave carbon deposits in your cylinder and heads.


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## lyft_rat (Jul 1, 2019)

Ssgcraig said:


> Where do you buy gasoline that doesn't have 10% ethanol in it? Is it racing fuel?


I buy it for very limited use at the local small engine dealer. $16 a gallon. I use about a gallon a year.


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

lyft_rat said:


> I buy it for very limited use at the local small engine dealer. $16 a gallon. I use about a gallon a year.


Wow, 16 a gallon.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

jlong105 said:


> Thanks Obama??
> 
> Do you mean Bush E85 has been available since 2000.


"Thanks Obama" is a meme. Lots of politicians of both parties have supported ethanol production.



Ssgcraig said:


> Where do you buy gasoline that doesn't have 10% ethanol in it? Is it racing fuel?











The blue one is 100% gasoline. This is Maverick in Colorado.


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> "Thanks Obama" is a meme. Lots of politicians of both parties have supported ethanol production.
> 
> 
> View attachment 372138
> ...


I have never seen that. 3 bucks a gallon, another gut here is paying 16 lol.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Ssgcraig said:


> I have never seen that. 3 bucks a gallon, another gut here is paying 16 lol.


Who knows what is really in that 87 though? I don't put it in my cars because the manufacturer doesn't recommend it and the car is designed to handle the cheaper stuff.

Colorado is an odd state. Can't get 93 but everything else is available.


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## Jsaxophone (Nov 9, 2017)

lyft_rat said:


> I buy it for very limited use at the local small engine dealer. $16 a gallon. I use about a gallon a year.


DAMN!!!. Where I am, it's about $3.09/gal and meant for recreational vehicles and boats.


waldowainthrop said:


> View attachment 372138
> 
> The blue one is 100% gasoline. This is Maverick in Colorado.


That's a pretty good price. Where I am, it's more expensive than premium. Luckily, I live near the water, so many stations near me sell ethanol-free for people filling up boats (ethanol absorbs water).


waldowainthrop said:


> Who knows what is really in that 87 though? I don't put it in my cars because the manufacturer doesn't recommend it and the car is designed to handle the cheaper stuff.
> 
> Colorado is an odd state. Can't get 93 but everything else is available.


Here we go, again.

Please don't call 87 octane "The cheap stuff" like you're putting cat piss in your tank. All grades are exactly the same quality and usually contain about the same detergents to keep your engine clean. Octane is a method of calculating the fuel's resistance to pre-ignition, that's about it. In the US, we use the Average(RON+MON) method.

Putting 93 octane in your Toyota Corolla is not going to make it run better or last longer, in fact, you'll probably lower your fuel economy, since octane boosters displace fuel, lowering the energy density. Cars with high cylinder pressures (boosted or high compression) require higher resistance to pre-ignition. Please check your car's manual for what you should use.

Also, 93 octane is not often sold in Colorado because of the altitude. 91 octane in Colorado will perform about the same as 93 octane in Florida.

Here's more info: https://www.vroomgirls.com/all-about-octane/


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## brentb31 (May 23, 2018)

I drive E85 Focus. I have found the difference needs to be $.61 between E85 and regular unleaded. Anything less than that and I am losing money once MPG are factored in.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Cold Fusion said:


> u live "down the street" from Mega discounter Sams.
> Do Sam's customers block ur trailer door with their parked cars?


Breathe... So. Breathe.... You will be ok...


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Jsaxophone said:


> DAMN!!!. Where I am, it's about $3.09/gal and meant for recreational vehicles and boats.
> 
> That's a pretty good price. Where I am, it's more expensive than premium. Luckily, I live near the water, so many stations near me sell ethanol-free for people filling up boats (ethanol absorbs water).
> 
> ...


Don't worry, I knew all that already. 87 is literally cheaper than 91 which is why I said "cheaper stuff" but more importantly it is decent quality gas that the manufacturer of my other car recommends. I don't put 91 in that car because it doesn't need it.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

As a RS driver another issue that is important to my is miles per tank. I can get by on one less fill up per week for the same miles by using 100% gasoline. That's a significant time savings.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Kevin Kargel said:


> As a RS driver another issue that is important to my is miles per tank. I can get by on one less fill up per week for the same miles by using 100% gasoline. That's a significant time savings.


This is one that I'll seriously have to consider. I don't refuel during high demand times and I don't drain my tank to empty, so my average refuel costs me $0-5 of time at most, but availability is still a useful consideration.


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## Atavar (Aug 11, 2018)

What I find is that cents per mile is roughly the same no matter which grade of gasoline I buy. The only real differences are power and miles per tank.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Update: at these rates E85 is definitely cheaper than 87 for me. More than 25% cost and the efficiency hit has been around -20%. 65 cents is the minimum difference between 87 and E85 the past few weeks, and it has typically been 75-90 cents.

Performance difference is imperceptible. Stopping by the gas station 20% more is not fun so occasionally I still buy 87 when it is below $2.90. ⛽


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