# Employee or "Independent Contractor"



## NWAüber

http://cnnmon.ie/1xX9YCE

Hey everyone. While the article deals with FedEx, I think that this is a scenario that could potentially happen with uber at some point.


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## UberFrolic

I was just about to post this.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/companies/fedex-driver-lawsuit/index.html

Can't we all take a lesson from this? I can see where this is headed. Drivers unite!!


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## UberOne

FedEx lost in these cases since the IRS listed them as employees, as they actually were, but were not treated as such. With Uber in the picture, I see a parallel in that we are up fronting the cost of everything, and it really blows.


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## Berliner

Now you know why Uber needs another 1 Bil$.


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## UberBlackDriverLA

The Fed Ex case is a big precedent, however the lesser know newspaper carrier case looms even bigger for California.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/article2613374.html

From the article...
"Among other factors that went into his decision, Wood found that The Bee had the right to terminate its contracts with the carriers "at will"; the carriers had "no professional skills, education or training" that would reflect the status of "a specialized independent contractor"; carriers worked on no "specific project for a specific finite time" inherent in traditional independent contractor relationships; newspaper delivery was "an integral part" of the company's business; and the carriers' paychecks contained deductions for items such as rubber-band purchases, complaint penalties and workers' compensation premiums."

Now substitute "driver" for "carrier".

The is very little doubt... UberX drivers are employees.


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## UberBlackDriverLA

Berliner said:


> Now you know why Uber needs another 1 Bil$.


Yes, they are gonna owe alot of overtime and employment taxes.


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## Jimmy Lee Hagerty

Yep. and you can kiss the golden goose goodby. You have the skills to find any other job that is as good as uber?


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## Guest

#TakeAction #DriversWillRise
Enough with the hashtags..but honestly I just want a few commonly held principles to apply to this job that we can all agree apon. Livable wages(no not min wage) proper training(no not a YouTube video you blow off and still drive). Proper Driver/Rider protection in the event of an accident(Ubers policy is far from ideal and leaves much desired) honesty and transpracy(not shady loan deals,lieing about tips and other deceptive tactics)

That's it just give me that Uber and you keep your bro culture and Dbag Ceo and management.


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## UberBlackDriverLA

Jimmy Lee Hagerty said:


> Yep. and you can kiss the golden goose goodby. You have the skills to find any other job that is as good as uber?


Nonsense. Nothing will change from the customer standpoint except the price will go up a little and there is alot of room for a price increase. Uber will be much stronger with employees than ICs. The biggest thing is they will have more control and be able to train staff.


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## Guest

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Nonsense. Nothing will change from the customer standpoint except the price will go up a little and there is alot of room for a price increase. Uber will be much stronger with employees than ICs. The biggest thing is they will have more control and be able to train staff.


Do your part my friend. Please leave a review on GlassDoor.com and the App Store. I see everyone leaving reviews and it's encouraging!! Uber inflates the App Store and was on a mission to pull up their horrible ratings up on glass door. They put in over 6pages of perfect reviews in a very short time..pretty gross this flew unnoticed. You'd think a 180 in rhetoric and over six pages of reviews saying the same thing would send red flags! ??


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## DriverJ

Pay Me Sucka!!


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Uber can deactivate you for no reason at a moment's notice. How is that not an employer/employee relationship? If you were truly two independent agencies, such a thing could not happen.


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## UberBlackDriverLA

DRIVERSOFTHEWORLDUNITE said:


> Uber can deactivate you for no reason at a moment's notice. How is that not an employer/employee relationship? If you were truly two independent agencies, such a thing could not happen.


You are correct, firing indicates an employee relationship.

Here's the judges ruling in the Bee case. 
http://media.bizj.us/view/img/3877101/sac-bee-decision.pdf

From the ruling...
"Perhaps the strongest evidence of the right to control is whether the hirer can discharge the worker without cause, because the power of the principal to terminate the services of the agent gives him the means of controlling the agent's activities."

Another thing of interest in this article... The judge said that using your own general use vehicle did NOT represent any degree of capital investment.


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## DriverJ

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> You are correct, firing indicates an employee relationship.
> 
> Here's the judges ruling in the Bee case.
> http://media.bizj.us/view/img/3877101/sac-bee-decision.pdf
> 
> From the ruling...
> "Perhaps the strongest evidence of the right to control is whether the hirer can discharge the worker without cause, because the power of the principal to terminate the services of the agent gives him the means of controlling the agent's activities."
> 
> Another thing of interest in this article... The judge said that using your own general use vehicle did NOT represent any degree of capital investment.


I see a federal judge pissing on Uber's parade. They can't operate worth a shit with no rules and regulations, it'll be really funny to watch them try to figure out what to do when they have to operate like a legitimate business. They'll probably get a bunch of fools with their own cars and try to push all of the work and responsibilities onto them.


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## Jimmy Lee Hagerty

Consider this. You are using Ubers Software under conditions that must be met. If you do not meet those conditions they can refuse to allow you to use it.That is NOT being FIRED. it is a breach of contract. That is not an employee / employer relationship.


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## DriverJ

Jimmy Lee Hagerty said:


> Yep. and you can kiss the golden goose goodby. You have the skills to find any other job that is as good as uber?


As "good as Uber?" Was that a joke? You're being sarcastic, I get it. These 'Uber skills' that you speak of. What are they exactly? Having a pulse? Not being legally blind?


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## DjTim

Jimmy Lee Hagerty said:


> Consider this. You are using Ubers Software under conditions that must be met. If you do not meet those conditions they can refuse to allow you to use it.That is NOT being FIRED. it is a breach of contract. That is not an employee / employer relationship.


This is paramount. Uber has business rules you must follow, no different then Jerry Dan (Portapoty company) or Cintas (uniform company). They also have independent contractors. You need to meet some type of metrics, and if you don't - you lose access to the system that they build. You are free to pursue other IC businesses - Uber isn't stopping you from driving or stopping you from getting access to the Lyft or other software platforms.


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## Steve French

I think most of you have no idea what the difference is between being an IC and a employee. Look at your contract. You can not be "fired". You can lose your privileges to provide services on behalf of Uber if you fail too meet their minimal requirements. Employees are required to work set hours, and tasks. If Uber required you to work specific hours, at certain locations, at a set wage, either hourly or % commission, then you would be an employee.


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## johnny danger

anybody think I could get unemployment when I get deactivated ??


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## DjTim

johnny danger said:


> anybody think I could get unemployment when I get deactivated ??


This guy.... LOL!


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## Berliner

Steve French said:


> I think most of you have no idea what the difference is between being an IC and a employee. Look at your contract. You can not be "fired". You can lose your privileges to provide services on behalf of Uber if you fail too meet their minimal requirements. Employees are required to work set hours, and tasks. If Uber required you to work specific hours, at certain locations, at a set wage, either hourly or % commission, then you would be an employee.


One of the most important things to be an indepentend contractor is to make your own prices, except you´re regulateted by the state, such as a cab-owner. I think next time will be funny.


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## DjTim

Berliner said:


> One of the most important things to be an indepentend contractor is to make your own prices, except you´re regulateted by the state, such as a cab-owner. I think next time will be funny.


Depends if the contract allows you to do that. The majority of the time, you don't set to set pricing. Sometimes you get to negotiate the percentage of the take, but never the pricing itself.


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## Berliner

DjTim said:


> Depends if the contract allows you to do that.


If it isn`t allowed you`re never ever been indepentend. That´s rule number *ONE* of the franchise-partners like McDumb, BK and what else. The company can "suggest" the price, but that´s it.


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## DriverJ

johnny danger said:


> anybody think I could get unemployment when I get deactivated ??


Nope, but I hear there's idiots fighting over the chance to give you free water, candy, gum, mints, a back massage, prostate exam, hand-job, and practically a free ride home to boot. You might not need unemployment, an Uber driver will probably support you.

Go get a CDL, a Class B will do, and it's easy. You won't have to put up with this nonsense. You can get a real job. Decent pay, benefits, and I've yet to have a stranger puke in my truck. I've worked for some bad trucking companies, but none of them could hold a candle to Uber. Not even close. No matter what kind of crap they tried, they always understood (*THE*) one key point. That truck going down the road fed and clothed their kids, and I made that truck go down the road.  I know many people do this as a part-time thing, so a CDL and truck wouldn't interest them, but if anyone feels stuck with Uber, just know that you're not.

There's always more driving jobs than drivers. It's a driver's market. You just might not be able to drive around comfortably in your personal vehicle, at least for now. What do you think would happen if (when) Uber suddenly couldn't retain enough drivers, or scam enough new blood into signing on? Lemme see, business is growing by leaps and bounds, but Uber keeps screwing drivers even worse. I'd say Uber is in for a rude awakening. Hell, if the drivers suddenly had to have a chauffeur's license, or even just go through a drive safety course, it would probably put them out of business! Something will eventually have to happen, and I'm sure they know it. It's just about grabbing all the money they can, while they can, and, of course - RIDER EXPERIENCE!  They kill me with that stuff.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

DjTim said:


> Depends if the contract allows you to do that. The majority of the time, you don't set to set pricing. Sometimes you get to negotiate the percentage of the take, but never the pricing itself.


hey I got an idea, lets make independent contractors sign a contract that dictates they be an employee

do you see where I'm going with this? These damn contracts are trying to put in just as much "employee" as they can without having to pay employee benefits. It's bullshit, and it needs to be called out, preferably by a federal judge.


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## johnny danger

DriverJ said:


> Nope, but I hear there's idiots fighting over the chance to give you free water, candy, gum, mints, a back massage, prostate exam, hand-job, and practically a free ride home to boot. You might not need unemployment, an Uber driver will probably support you.
> 
> Go get a CDL, a Class B will do, and it's easy. You won't have to put up with this nonsense. You can get a real job. Decent pay, benefits, and I've yet to have a stranger puke in my truck. I've worked for some bad trucking companies, but none of them could hold a candle to Uber. Not even close. No matter what kind of crap they tried, they always understood (*THE*) one key point. That truck going down the road fed and clothed their kids, and I made that truck go down the road.  I know many people do this as a part-time thing, so a CDL and truck wouldn't interest them, but if anyone feels stuck with Uber, just know that you're not.
> 
> There's always more driving jobs than drivers. It's a driver's market. You just might not be able to drive around comfortably in your personal vehicle, at least for now. What do you think would happen if (when) Uber suddenly couldn't retain enough drivers, or scam enough new blood into signing on? Lemme see, business is growing by leaps and bounds, but Uber keeps screwing drivers even worse. I'd say Uber is in for a rude awakening. Hell, if the drivers suddenly had to have a chauffeur's license, or even just go through a drive safety course, it would probably put them out of business! Something will eventually have to happen, and I'm sure they know it. It's just about grabbing all the money they can, while they can, and, of course - RIDER EXPERIENCE!  They kill me with that stuff.


That was pretty funny,,,,you got me laughin.... I've thought about getting my CDL,,, just been dragin my feet and my ass..... I beter do somthing soon ;;;;like 1st thing tomorrow....thanx for the motivation


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## UberBlackDriverLA

Steve French said:


> I think most of you have no idea what the difference is between being an IC and a employee. Look at your contract. You can not be "fired". You can lose your privileges to provide services on behalf of Uber if you fail too meet their minimal requirements. Employees are required to work set hours, and tasks. If Uber required you to work specific hours, at certain locations, at a set wage, either hourly or % commission, then you would be an employee.


Let me give you guys a little education. Both the IRS and the courts have ruled that contracts between the hirer and worker mean nothing when it comes to determining employee or IC.

What matters is the level of control the hirer has over the worker. A few of the things you mention (other than the contract), plus a multitude of other factors determine that control.

As clearly stated in the most recent ruling, the most important factor of control is if the hirer has the ability to discharge the worker without cause, then they are an employee. This makes sense because having the ability to discharge is the biggest hammer over you head as a worker.

If you guys were following the big Uber lawsuit that is going on in California right now, you would know that the judge has requested documents pertaining to the discharge of 100 Uber drivers. The judge is using these to find the level of control.

Did Uber discharge drivers without cause?
Examples of discharging drivers without cause: 
1. Discharging drivers for ratings too low due to drunk passengers
2. Discharging drivers for ratings too low due to pax upset that you will not speed, overload a vehicle, run lights, drink alcohol in the car or violate other laws
3. Discharging drivers for ratings too low due to pax thinking 4 star rating is good. 
4. Discharging drivers for ratings too low due to surge pricing and app malfunction
5. Discharging drivers for making silly twitter statments or voicing their opinions on uberpeople.net
6. Discharging drivers for not accepting enough trips
7. Discharging drivers for being inactive

Please read the rulings on the precedent cases before making anymore rediculous statements!


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## UberBlackDriverLA

Jimmy Lee Hagerty said:


> Consider this. You are using Ubers Software under conditions that must be met. If you do not meet those conditions they can refuse to allow you to use it.That is NOT being FIRED. it is a breach of contract. That is not an employee / employer relationship.


So what your saying is that just because two parties have a contract, employment law should not be applied?

Once again, the IRS and the courts have ruled that when determining between an employee and an IC, contracts mean nothing.


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## UL Driver SF

So...is anyone here a atty with experience in this field?


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## UberBlackDriverLA

If anything, the "comtracts" work against Uber. IC's have the right to negotiate contracts. How many Uber drivers do you know who negotiated the terms of the contract? The "contract" is nothing but a set of employment rules dictated by Uber.


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## arto71

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> 7. Discharging drivers for being inactive



























Hey .....,

We wanted to alert you that your account is at risk of deactivation very soon.

To keep your account active, simply complete a trip in the next week.

If you're out of town or unable to drive, or you've decided Uber isn't the right fit for you, please reply to this email and let us know. We will help sort things out.

Thanks,
The Uber Team


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## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF said:


> So...is anyone here a atty with experience in this field?


You do realize that you do not need to be an attorney to be able to read and comprehend don't you?


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## UL Driver SF

You do realize that the law in general, let alone this area, and how it is argued and decided in court is extremely complicated don't you?

I just find it funny when people make legal predictions with pretty much less than zero education or experience on the subject.

So, I take your not an atty?


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## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF said:


> You do realize that the law in general, let alone this area, and how it is argued and decided in court is extremely complicated don't you?
> 
> I just find it funny when people make legal predictions with pretty much less than zero education or experience on the subject.
> 
> So, I take your not an atty?


No, I'm an employee of Uber.


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## DriverJ

johnny danger said:


> That was pretty funny,,,,you got me laughin.... I've thought about getting my CDL,,, just been dragin my feet and my ass..... I beter do somthing soon ;;;;like 1st thing tomorrow....thanx for the motivation


Go for it man. It's worth having it it in your pocket just for a guaranteed job. They're not always great jobs if you're in need of something quick, but they're also not Uber! Like I said in another post - many, probably most, are Ubering for a few extra bucks on the side, and it looks like in some areas they can do it (if they're not involved in an accident). Especially by taking advantage of the price-gouging. I grossed $134.33 (12 rides) last night in about 9 hours, before Uber's cut or any expenses. Not exactly a full-time gig, and that's what I was trying to do with Uber. Not exactly a good part-time gig considering the fact your playing Russian Roulette with your vehicle and insurance, and rapidly turning your vehicle into a pile of junk.

If they would just do at least one more massive fare reduction, I think all would be well.


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## Badbeat

I don't se


NWAüber said:


> http://cnnmon.ie/1xX9YCE
> 
> Hey everyone. While the article deals with FedEx, I think that this is a scenario that could potentially happen with uber at some point.


I don't see how anyone could draw a parallel between FEDEX and UBER as it relates to this story!


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## Badbeat

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> No, I'm an employee of Uber.


Nope, you are 1099


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## Badbeat

johnny danger said:


> anybody think I could get unemployment when I get deactivated ??


NOT A CHANCE


Jimmy Lee Hagerty said:


> Consider this. You are using Ubers Software under conditions that must be met. If you do not meet those conditions they can refuse to allow you to use it.That is NOT being FIRED. it is a breach of contract. That is not an employee / employer relationship.


ALL DAY!


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## pengduck

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Yes, they are gonna owe alot of overtime and employment taxes.


Hope you guys save all of your info!!! I damn sure do.


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## pengduck

Jimmy Lee Hagerty said:


> Consider this. You are using Ubers Software under conditions that must be met. If you do not meet those conditions they can refuse to allow you to use it.That is NOT being FIRED. it is a breach of contract. That is not an employee / employer relationship.


When you are the only way the company has of making money yes you are. They dictate certain terms which under IC rules they can not dictate.


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## pengduck

DjTim said:


> Depends if the contract allows you to do that. The majority of the time, you don't set to set pricing. Sometimes you get to negotiate the percentage of the take, but never the pricing itself.


If I am truly an IC I can charge whatever someone is willing to pay. Not what is dictated to me. Look at it like this I go to the flea market and I have product x for sale. Joe sales his for $5.00. Mine is of a higher quality so I charge $7.00. There is no difference I offer a better service than do taxis and I do it in a more efficient manner. Therefore I have a premium product and the market will allow me to charge more. If I was an IC I would dictate the terms not Uber.


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## Tx rides

Jimmy Lee Hagerty said:


> Yep. and you can kiss the golden goose goodby. You have the skills to find any other job that is as good as uber?


If one has enough smarts and skills to earn good money with Uber, they are CERTAINLY qualified to find a better job, or better yet, run their own service.


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## Tx rides

pengduck said:


> If I am truly an IC I can charge whatever someone is willing to pay. Not what is dictated to me. Look at it like this I go to the flea market and I have product x for sale. Joe sales his for $5.00. Mine is of a higher quality so I charge $7.00. There is no difference I offer a better service than do taxis and I do it in a more efficient manner. Therefore I have a premium product and the market will allow me to charge more. If I was an IC I would dictate the terms not Uber.


Djtim is right about the negotiation (price would be negotiated with Uber) but the fact that you have no say in the take, and they set acceptance rates Is one aspect which makes their IC definition shaky.


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## UberHustla

pengduck said:


> Hope you guys save all of your info!!! I damn sure do.


What do you save exactly? Sounds like great advice


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## Tx rides

pengduck said:


> If I am truly an IC I can charge whatever someone is willing to pay. Not what is dictated to me. Look at it like this I go to the flea market and I have product x for sale. Joe sales his for $5.00. Mine is of a higher quality so I charge $7.00. There is no difference I offer a better service than do taxis and I do it in a more efficient manner. Therefore I have a premium product and the market will allow me to charge more. If I was an IC I would dictate the terms not Uber.


One good thing: since you are an independent contractor by their definition, you can set your own rates with your own app. You could compete with their insane surge rates and build your own network. I am surprised more drivers are not running independent on the side. (perhaps they are, it's not as if I would know what every driver is doing!!!) Once that becomes popular, I'm sure we will see Uber pursue regulations to protect their interests. 
I can remember when Travis was pissing and moaning because Lyft was running illegally.


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## prdelnik666

Steve French said:


> I think most of you have no idea what the difference is between being an IC and a employee. Look at your contract. You can not be "fired". You can lose your privileges to provide services on behalf of Uber if you fail too meet their minimal requirements. Employees are required to work set hours, and tasks. If Uber required you to work specific hours, at certain locations, at a set wage, either hourly or % commission, then you would be an employee.


They are providing you with a phone and insurance and are in full control of your economics. You are an employee


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## UberHammer

pengduck said:


> If I am truly an IC I can charge whatever someone is willing to pay. Not what is dictated to me. Look at it like this I go to the flea market and I have product x for sale. Joe sales his for $5.00. Mine is of a higher quality so I charge $7.00. There is no difference I offer a better service than do taxis and I do it in a more efficient manner. Therefore I have a premium product and the market will allow me to charge more. If I was an IC I would dictate the terms not Uber.


Riders do not pay you. They pay Uber. The riders are Uber's customers.

You can charge Uber whatever Uber is willing to pay for your services. Uber is your customer.

If you want riders as customers, setup a livery business and go find your own customers. You can even do UberBlack to fill in the downtime as you grow.


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## Badbeat

UberHammer said:


> Riders do not pay you. They pay Uber. The riders are Uber's customers.
> 
> You can charge Uber whatever Uber is willing to pay for your services. Uber is your customer.
> 
> If you want riders as customers, setup a livery business and go find your own customers. You can even do UberBlack to fill in the downtime as you grow.


agreed!

I don't understand the confusion in definition at all!

An employee of a company is responsible for collecting all Federal & State and Local county taxes. Does UBER do this?

ANSWER: NO!

I rather be an IC!


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## Tx rides

Badbeat said:


> agreed!
> 
> I don't understand the confusion in definition at all!
> 
> An employee of a company is responsible for collecting all Federal & State and Local county taxes. Does UBER do this?
> 
> ANSWER: NO!
> 
> I rather be an IC!


Well many misclassify to AVOID paying taxes, so no paying taxes is not a test. But they do several things which likely classify as employee, will depend on how courts rule though


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## UberHammer

Badbeat said:


> agreed!
> 
> I don't understand the confusion in definition at all!
> 
> An employee of a company is responsible for collecting all Federal & State and Local county taxes. Does UBER do this?
> 
> ANSWER: NO!
> 
> I rather be an IC!


Well, the legal definition of employee is inherently confusing, as are most legal definitions of anything.

But the confusion of the legal definition of employee has nothing to do with the IC/employee ability, nor lack there off, to negotiate price with an Uber customer.

Uber may lose its IC stance if it goes to court, but not for the price negotiation with an Uber customer argument.

It's a red herring, and people should just let it go as it can only cause harm to the cause.


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## Tx rides

UberHammer said:


> Well, the legal definition of employee is inherently confusing, as are most legal definitions of anything.
> 
> But the confusion of the legal definition of employee has nothing to do with the IC/employee ability, nor lack there off, to negotiate price with an Uber customer.
> 
> Uber may lose its IC stance if it goes to court, but not for the price negotiation with an Uber customer argument.
> 
> It's a red herring, and people should just let it go as it can only cause harm to the cause.


The biggest pressure on employee classification is going to be from states losing revenue. The 1099 economy is going to pinch them HARD


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

prdelnik666 said:


> They are providing you with a phone and insurance and are in full control of your economics. You are an employee


Yeah I'd like to know if any true independent contractor ever got a phone from one of their clients. I sure know many employees who got phones from their employers.


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## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> Yeah I'd like to know if any true independent contractor ever got a phone from one of their clients. I sure know many employees who got phones from their employers.


If by "PHONE" Do you mean a material item that was provided by the "client" as optional item to be used and paid for by the IC?


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Badbeat said:


> If by "PHONE" Do you mean a material item that was provided by the "client" as optional item to be used and paid for by the IC?


I loved your previous defense of Uber. "They don't pay employee benefits / taxes, THEREFORE you're not an employee!!"


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## UberHammer

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> Yeah I'd like to know if any true independent contractor ever got a phone from one of their clients. I sure know many employees who got phones from their employers.


Happens in corporate IT a lot. An independent contractor needs access to internal email, and the company doesn't want corporate email ending up on the IC's personal phone, so the company issues the IC a company phone. I haven't seen the weekly fee, but then again they don't issue these phones to ICs who can just work for 20 minutes a week to stay contracted. They issue these phones to ICs that are working significant hours for them every week.


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## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> I loved your previous defense of Uber. "They don't pay employee benefits / taxes, THEREFORE you're not an employee!!"


I am not defending UBER... I am defending LIBERTY!

I have not worked for anyone as an employee in over 25 years... and I rather keep it that way....If the folks that want UBER to be classified as an employer have there way...I will be done with UBER... I don't need a daddy, I don't need a mommy....I need my liberty!


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Badbeat said:


> I am not defending UBER... I am defending LIBERTY!
> 
> I have not worked for anyone as an employee in over 25 years... and I rather keep it that way....If the folks that want UBER to be classified as an employer have there way...I will be done with UBER... I don't need a daddy, I don't need a mommy....I need my liberty!


I understand that. What I think most people are objecting to is this bizarre IC/employee hybrid that corporate America is trying to use these days. If you're going to be an independent contractor, then you deserve even more liberty (as you call it) than Uber is currently allowing.


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## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> I loved your previous defense of Uber. "They don't pay employee benefits / taxes, THEREFORE you're not an employee!!"


You did not answer the question......

I asked it for a reason....as I have been 1099 (IC) for years with several different companies....and "YES" it was not unusual for the CLIENT to have materials that I needed to do my job ( sales), and in so doing, had to invest my own money in exchange to use the material!

PS: As of last night, I am using my iPhone to contract with UBER, and their phone will be on it's way back to the client that provided it to me so that I could perform my duties as an independent contractor for them for a few weeks...Thank you UBER, for trusting me with your costly piece of equipment at a very reasonable price!


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

UberHammer said:


> Happens in corporate IT a lot. An independent contractor needs access to internal email, and the company doesn't want corporate email ending up on the IC's personal phone, so the company issues the IC a company phone. I haven't seen the weekly fee, but then again they don't issue these phones to ICs who can just work for 20 minutes a week to stay contracted. They issue these phones to ICs that are working significant hours for them every week.


Isn't IT an industry that used to be entirely employee based until some cost-saving jackoffs decided to just contract all the work out? Giving a company phone seems like a throwback to the old days.


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## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> I understand that. What I think most people are objecting to is this bizarre IC/employee hybrid that corporate America is trying to use these days. If you're going to be an independent contractor, then you deserve even more liberty (as you call it) than Uber is currently allowing.


And what exactly is that LIBERTY that they currently do not provide me?


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Badbeat said:


> And what exactly is that LIBERTY that they currently do not provide me?


1. Unable to negotiate own prices
2. Unable to decide own acceptance rates without fear of termination
3. Unable to obtain basic information from your "partner" Uber, such as a spreadsheet of all your completed rides with client names, numbers, $ earned, miles driven, etc. You deserve this information.
I'm sure others can chime in with more.


----------



## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> Isn't IT an industry that used to be entirely employee based until some cost-saving jackoffs decided to just contract all the work out? Giving a company phone seems like a throwback to the old days.


I am beginning to see where a reasonable conversation with you leads........

PS: I assume you are fond of the person in your profile pic....who is it?


----------



## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> 1. Unable to negotiate own prices
> 2. Unable to decide own acceptance rates without fear of termination
> 3. Unable to obtain basic information from your "partner" Uber, such as a spreadsheet of all your completed rides with client names, numbers, $ earned, miles driven, etc. You deserve this information.
> I'm sure others can chime in with more.


I do not agree with the rate/cost issue, as most companies I have dealt with as an IC will not allow me as an IC to adjust the value of the service, and also, the other side of that argument would be auto sales....most auto dealers have sales people that are given required price points on product, but are allowed to get anything above that.

That said, i would agree with some of your concerns on that list...have you requested any of the information from UBER?


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Stalin, a.k.a. "Man of Steel", the leader of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics from 1922 to 1952, the last period of time in which Russia held real power and sway over humanity, giving hope and purpose to millions of people. Why do you ask?


----------



## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> Stalin, a.k.a. "Man of Steel", the leader of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics from 1922 to 1952, the last period of time in which Russia held real power and sway over humanity, giving hope and purpose to millions of people. Why do you ask?


I ask, because, that is who I thought is was.... so you are a fan of Stalin...I see


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Of course. He was one of the world's greatest leaders. The only man who gave world-wide capitalism a run for its money. No man in politics today can hold a candle to him.


----------



## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> Of course. He was one of the world's greatest leaders. The only man who gave world-wide capitalism a run for its money. No man in politics today can hold a candle to him.


Was he not a genocidal maniac similar to Hitler?

It has been a wile since I was in school, and history was not my long suit, but I do believe he was a top gunner for maniac of the world as was Hitler.


----------



## DjTim

pengduck said:


> If I am truly an IC I can charge whatever someone is willing to pay. Not what is dictated to me. Look at it like this I go to the flea market and I have product x for sale. Joe sales his for $5.00. Mine is of a higher quality so I charge $7.00. There is no difference I offer a better service than do taxis and I do it in a more efficient manner. Therefore I have a premium product and the market will allow me to charge more. If I was an IC I would dictate the terms not Uber.


I think you are confusing a VENDOR relationship (i.e. sunglasses, salt & pepper shakers "Goods") and a IC for a service, or in this case access to a network that provides customers for a service. If I buy 1000 sunglasses, I can sell them for whatever I want, because I own that product. I can keep 1000 sunglasses and take a loss, or sell them to break even or whatever.

With the case of Uber, Lyft, whoever - you are following the rules of a contract. Really, we are no different then Molly Maid (House cleaning services), Enserv (environmental cleanup after disasters), Home Depot services (Carpet, cabinet & appliance installers). We accept a job (ping) and we complete the job and get paid the rates that the job pays. We stay within guidelines that the parent company dems "good". We can quit any time we want. If the service doesn't require our service, they can end the contract at anytime. I am not familiar with the contracts for services like Home depot or Enserve, but I don't think there is anything in their contract that says that they can't do "extra" services for the clients (not up selling, additional services). There's nothing stopping us from selling additional services to our riders.

When IC's come into "question" it's around forcing the IC to "do" things like work hours or get the contract canceled, wear a uniform the contract company only sells or get the contract canceled, buy technology we (contract company) only vends. With the case of FedEx, it was forcing drivers to work x hours or not get paid and uniforms.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Badbeat said:


> Was he not a genocidal maniac similar to Hitler?
> 
> It has been a wile since I was in school, and history was not my long suit, but I do believe he was a top gunner for maniac of the world as was Hitler.


You're surprised that your American public school system has taught you propaganda re: Stalin? Every American needs to forget everything they learned in Propaganda class a.k.a. "history" a.k.a. "social studies" and do your own research.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

DjTim said:


> When IC's come into "question" it's around forcing the IC to "do" things like work hours or get the contract canceled, wear a uniform the contract company only sells or get the contract canceled, buy technology we (contract company) only vends. With the case of FedEx, it was forcing drivers to work x hours or not get paid and uniforms.


And how does the "you must have your acceptance rate above X or face termination" factor into this, especially when X is not even a hard defined number?


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## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> You're surprised that your American public school system has taught you propaganda re: Stalin? Every American needs to forget everything they learned in Propaganda class a.k.a. "history" a.k.a. "social studies" and do your own research.


How about a link to a starting point on Stalin ...I am interested, I will take a few minutes to look at it.......


----------



## DjTim

UberHammer said:


> Happens in corporate IT a lot. An independent contractor needs access to internal email, and the company doesn't want corporate email ending up on the IC's personal phone, so the company issues the IC a company phone. I haven't seen the weekly fee, but then again they don't issue these phones to ICs who can just work for 20 minutes a week to stay contracted. They issue these phones to ICs that are working significant hours for them every week.


Sometimes it's phones, sometimes it's laptops & network hardware. It depends on the contract that you sign and the companies rules around access to their systems. Most of the times I get access to a companies network, I need to prove that my laptop has encryption, and other security related things. In the past companies use to hand out phones like they were candy, but with newer phones they are able to "isolate" e-mail to secure it, so it's BYOD and sign a sheet that says I won't steal company secretes (NDA).



Badbeat said:


> You did not answer the question......
> 
> I asked it for a reason....as I have been 1099 (IC) for years with several different companies....and "YES" it was not unusual for the CLIENT to have materials that I needed to do my job ( sales), and in so doing, had to invest my own money in exchange to use the material!
> 
> PS: As of last night, I am using my iPhone to contract with UBER, and their phone will be on it's way back to the client that provided it to me so that I could perform my duties as an independent contractor for them for a few weeks...Thank you UBER, for trusting me with your costly piece of equipment at a very reasonable price!


This is really where companies get into trouble. The "Selling" of materials by only that company can be crossing the employee line. If that said company allows me to reproduce sales material with their logo at a cheaper price or I'm allowed to use their "logo" then it doesn't cross that line.


----------



## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> And how does the "you must have your acceptance rate above X or face termination" factor into this, especially when X is not even a hard defined number?


As an IC you are always at the mercy of the client, and that means cancelation without notice, the client/contractor relationship relies upon good faith by both parties.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Badbeat said:


> How about a link to a starting point on Stalin ...I am interested, I will take a few minutes to look at it.......


I would first read this, to get a feel of how people under Stalin's rule felt about him:
http://thanksstalin.blogspot.com/2008/10/hymn-to-stalin.html


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## Badbeat

DjTim said:


> This is really where companies get into trouble. The "Selling" of materials by only that company can be crossing the employee line. If that said company allows me to reproduce sales material with their logo at a cheaper price or I'm allowed to use their "logo" then it doesn't cross that line.


In my case, the item had a market value, and it was my choice to pay for the real product, or use a dummy...I spent the money on the real thing in order to make an honest presentation.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Badbeat said:


> As an IC you are always at the mercy of the client, and that means cancelation without notice, the client/contractor relationship relies upon good faith by both parties.


No, that is not true. Contracts cannot have a clause that says "This contract can be terminated at any point for any reason." It is VOID FOR VAGUENESS.


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## DjTim

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> And how does the "you must have your acceptance rate above X or face termination" factor into this, especially when X is not even a hard defined number?


It's a metric on how well you are doing as a driver. I really wish that I had more info on the Home Depot or Lowes independent contractors. I would think they have the same rules like "you can't just turn down 10 jobs in a row and pick that 1 job because you think it pays better"

Really, the acceptance rate is no different then the driver rating system. Look - I don't like the way that Uber calculates their ratings, I never said I did - but I have to follow that rule to have access to their customers.

Really - it comes down to, if you don't like the contract, then don't work it. I've turned down IT work on contract because I don't want to work on-call. Most companies will negotiate a different rate. Uber isn't going to negotiate rates, they can just move on to the next person willing to accept the contract as it is. If I don't want to drive for Uber, I can go to a limo company or a taxi company or any company that I want no different then the company with the IT work - they don't stop me from working.


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## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> I would first read this, to get a feel of how people under Stalin's rule felt about him:
> http://thanksstalin.blogspot.com/2008/10/hymn-to-stalin.html


That is a blog, and it is closed.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

We could argue about this until the cows come home. What really needs to happen is a ruling once and for all by a federal judge about whether Uber and Lyfts contracts are valid for the IC status.


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## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> No, that is not true. Contracts cannot have a clause that says "This contract can be terminated at any point for any reason." It is VOID FOR VAGUENESS.


Oh YES they do!


----------



## DjTim

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> No, that is not true. Contracts cannot have a clause that says "This contract can be terminated at any point for any reason." It is VOID FOR VAGUENESS.


Ummm, actually they can. I sign contracts like this all the time. Some better contracts will have monetary values attached to a termination depending on how valuable the contract is or the work that is being provided.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

I'm telling you it's VOID FOR VAGUENESS. If these clauses weren't void, then the company could just raise the commission to 100% and say "Sorry, we changed the agreement, read your contract we can do that".


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## DjTim

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> We could argue about this until the cows come home. What really needs to happen is a ruling once and for all by a federal judge about whether Uber and Lyfts contracts are valid for the IC status.


I don't think this will go federal. I think it will be argued on a state by state basis, because each state has their own rules around what IC & employee status means. Most likely it will be argued in California because they have a very strict definition around IC and employee definitions.

What would go federal is the class action lawsuit about monies owed to a driver, the case that is linked around here all the time.


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## DjTim

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> I'm telling you it's VOID FOR VAGUENESS. If these clauses weren't void, then the company could just raise the commission to 100% and say "Sorry, we changed the agreement, read your contract we can do that".


And then I can terminate the contract. I'm not forced to provide work for them - I think you are missing that point.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

You wouldn't just "terminate the contract" if they took all the money from the last job you completed.


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## pengduck

UberHustla said:


> What do you save exactly? Sounds like great advice


I write down what time I start what tin I end. Mileage and when each trip comes in and fare. I also keep track of all cancels.


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## pengduck

Tx rides said:


> One good thing: since you are an independent contractor by their definition, you can set your own rates with your own app. You could compete with their insane surge rates and build your own network. I am surprised more drivers are not running independent on the side. (perhaps they are, it's not as if I would know what every driver is doing!!!) Once that becomes popular, I'm sure we will see Uber pursue regulations to protect their interests.
> I can remember when Travis was pissing and moaning because Lyft was running illegally.


Uber doesn't recognize regulations.


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## pengduck

Tx rides said:


> The biggest pressure on employee classification is going to be from states losing revenue. The 1099 economy is going to pinch them HARD


Not so! As a 1099 employee you are responsible for SS, medicare, state unemp, and fed unemp, as wellas state, and Federal income tax. Which means if you are a 1099 you will pay these %s on your 1099 amount. Then you can deduct your mileage and get a kickback of only the income tax portion. However if you are an S corporation as I am your income is only after you pay expenses. Me myself I prefer to pay myself .56 per mile as it comes out now. Example: If you drive 100 miles a day then you can pay yourself 56.00 for depreciation and expenses. If you made $75 for the day your net would be $19. Therefore you would pay these taxes on $19 rather than $75.


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## pengduck

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> I loved your previous defense of Uber. "They don't pay employee benefits / taxes, THEREFORE you're not an employee!!"


This would not apply to you if when you started the app wasn't available for any phone other than theirs. With Uber the only thing the "IC" has any real control over is when they work. Uber has control over every other aspect of this job.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

pengduck said:


> Not so! As a 1099 employee you are responsible for SS, medicare, state unemp, and fed unemp, as wellas state, and Federal income tax. Which means if you are a 1099 you will pay these %s on your 1099 amount. Then you can deduct your mileage and get a kickback of only the income tax portion. However if you are an S corporation as I am your income is only after you pay expenses. Me myself I prefer to pay myself .56 per mile as it comes out now. Example: If you drive 100 miles a day then you can pay yourself 56.00 for depreciation and expenses. If you made $75 for the day your net would be $19. Therefore you would pay these taxes on $19 rather than $75.


The IRS greatly prefers the employee model because they automatically deduct from the paycheck. With ICs, they depend on the responsibility of a person to budget and then send in the proper taxes. I think we all know how responsible the average American is.


----------



## pengduck

DjTim said:


> I think you are confusing a VENDOR relationship (i.e. sunglasses, salt & pepper shakers "Goods") and a IC for a service, or in this case access to a network that provides customers for a service. If I buy 1000 sunglasses, I can sell them for whatever I want, because I own that product. I can keep 1000 sunglasses and take a loss, or sell them to break even or whatever.
> 
> With the case of Uber, Lyft, whoever - you are following the rules of a contract. Really, we are no different then Molly Maid (House cleaning services), Enserv (environmental cleanup after disasters), Home Depot services (Carpet, cabinet & appliance installers). We accept a job (ping) and we complete the job and get paid the rates that the job pays. We stay within guidelines that the parent company dems "good". We can quit any time we want. If the service doesn't require our service, they can end the contract at anytime. I am not familiar with the contracts for services like Home depot or Enserve, but I don't think there is anything in their contract that says that they can't do "extra" services for the clients (not up selling, additional services). There's nothing stopping us from selling additional services to our riders.
> 
> When IC's come into "question" it's around forcing the IC to "do" things like work hours or get the contract canceled, wear a uniform the contract company only sells or get the contract canceled, buy technology we (contract company) only vends. With the case of FedEx, it was forcing drivers to work x hours or not get paid and uniforms.


Ok the product is truly transportation. Do I not own that? The product is quick, safe and reliable service. Do I not own that? It is my car. Do I not own that?


----------



## DjTim

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> The IRS greatly prefers the employee model because they automatically deduct from the paycheck. With ICs, they depend on the responsibility of a person to budget and then send in the proper taxes. I think we all know how responsible the average American is.


Depending on how you are personally setup (sole proprietor, s-Corp, LLC), you could be paying taxes monthly, quarterly or yearly even when getting a 1099. At one point I was doing quarterly files and paying my self a salary. I changed that to yearly.

The government will always get their taxes - state or federal. How it gets paid is generally a question for your tax attorney or CPA person.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

DjTim said:


> Depending on how you are personally setup (sole proprietor, s-Corp, LLC), you could be paying taxes monthly, quarterly or yearly even when getting a 1099. At one point I was doing quarterly files and paying my self a salary. I changed that to yearly.
> 
> The government will always get their taxes - state or federal. How it gets paid is generally a question for your tax attorney or CPA person.


They will get their taxes, but the question is how much money / manpower / time they will spend to get it. Employee model is the easiest for them.


----------



## prdelnik666

Badbeat said:


> You did not answer the question......
> 
> I asked it for a reason....as I have been 1099 (IC) for years with several different companies....and "YES" it was not unusual for the CLIENT to have materials that I needed to do my job ( sales), and in so doing, had to invest my own money in exchange to use the material!
> 
> PS: As of last night, I am using my iPhone to contract with UBER, and their phone will be on it's way back to the client that provided it to me so that I could perform my duties as an independent contractor for them for a few weeks...Thank you UBER, for trusting me with your costly piece of equipment at a very reasonable price!


I guess you will really enjoy when they high jack your contacts on your phone and start spamming everyone on your phone to start driving for them. Along with access to all your sms conversations and everything else. Good luck with that


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

lol @ referring to an iphone 4 purchased in bulk as a "costly piece of equipment".


----------



## Tx rides

Badbeat said:


> I am not defending UBER... I am defending LIBERTY!
> 
> I have not worked for anyone as an employee in over 25 years... and I rather keep it that way....If the folks that want UBER to be classified as an employer have there way...I will be done with UBER... I don't need a daddy, I don't need a mommy....I need my liberty!


Most drivers I have talked to are not seeking to be classified as employees, they are seeking to be truly treated as independent contractors.That means Uber has to do more then not withhold or pay Social Security or unemployment taxes.The rating system, and the activation process alone makes the independent contractor definition very sketchy.


----------



## Tx rides

Badbeat said:


> And what exactly is that LIBERTY that they currently do not provide me?


Rating, acceptance demands, and deactivation, for starters. Gratuity process...50-50 on that, technically I suppose a driver can except cash, but be discouragement at the POS is quite limiting.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Yeah they have no right to instill this value of "I don't hafta tip!!" into your clients.


----------



## Tx rides

pengduck said:


> Not so! As a 1099 employee you are responsible for SS, medicare, state unemp, and fed unemp, as wellas state, and Federal income tax. Which means if you are a 1099 you will pay these %s on your 1099 amount. Then you can deduct your mileage and get a kickback of only the income tax portion. However if you are an S corporation as I am your income is only after you pay expenses. Me myself I prefer to pay myself .56 per mile as it comes out now. Example: If you drive 100 miles a day then you can pay yourself 56.00 for depreciation and expenses. If you made $75 for the day your net would be $19. Therefore you would pay these taxes on $19 rather than $75.


It is a lot easier for a self employed driver to under report, write off expenses, etc. It definitely hits states, and is projected to hit even more with the new healthcare exchanges.


----------



## UberHammer

pengduck said:


> Ok the product is truly transportation. Do I not own that? The product is quick, safe and reliable service. Do I not own that? It is my car. Do I not own that?


Transportation is a service. Nobody buys transportation as a good. When you pay for the subway, you don't walk away from the transaction owning a subway car. You walk away having received the benefit of being moved from one spot to another. You do not walk away having received the benefit of an increase in goods you now own (except from those uber drivers giving away free water and candy, which being "free" means no goods were sold).

It's true that you own your car, but unless an uber customer is buying your car, you aren't selling a good.


----------



## UberHammer

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> Yeah they have no right to instill this value of "I don't hafta tip!!" into your clients.


This is probably the best example of what Uber is doing illegal.

It is clearly a restraint of trade, which antitrust laws only allow to occur when the entity restraining trade has reasonable reason to do so.

I'm sure Uber's lawyers will argue that they do have reasonable reason to restrain the trade of tips between its customers and its independent contractors, but any legal representation the drivers had should be able to overcome this argument, especially when simply enabling the "tip" feature on UberTaxi to the rest of Uber's offerings would result in increased tax revenues for government. The government would very likely throw an antitrust violation at Uber if the drivers sued Uber over the "no tip" policy.


----------



## pengduck

UberHammer said:


> Transportation is a service. Nobody buys transportation as a good. When you pay for the subway, you don't walk away from the transaction owning a subway car. You walk away having received the benefit of being moved from one spot to another. You do not walk away having received the benefit of an increase in goods you now own (except from those uber drivers giving away free water and candy, which being "free" means no goods were sold).
> 
> It's true that you own your car, but unless an uber customer is buying your car, you aren't selling a good.


Goods or services it's the same animal I am selling something that is exclusively mine to sell!!!!!


----------



## UberHammer

pengduck said:


> Goods or services it's the same animal I am selling something that is exclusively mine to sell!!!!!


If you are a livery business, then you are selling that service, which is exclusively yours to sell, to your riders.

Every Uber rider is however Uber's paying customer, not yours. They do not pay you. They pay Uber. Whether you do 1, 1000 or even a billion Uber trips, your only customer ever is Uber, and you are selling that service, which is exclusively yours to sell, to Uber.

It's your choice who you sell your services to. Sell them to Lyft too. Sell them to Sidecar too. Setup a livery business and sell it to businesses and individuals.

If Uber says you can't, THEN you are in an employee relationship with Uber.


----------



## Badbeat

Tx rides said:


> Rating, acceptance demands, and deactivation, for starters. Gratuity process...50-50 on that, technically I suppose a driver can except cash, but be discouragement at the POS is quite limiting.


Well... as far as I know if you are in default of contract with a client, your contract is void...so no real argument for the employee side there... um...yea, the gratuity is not a real issue either... you as a IC can accept a cash payment for services rendered!


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Badbeat said:


> Well... as far as I know if you are in default of contract with a client, your contract is void...so no real argument for the employee side there... um...yea, the gratuity is not a real issue either... you as a IC can accept a cash payment for services rendered!


Does the contract say your rating needs to be X, and your acceptance rating needs to be Y, where X and Y are actual numbers? Because if not, the contract is VOID FOR VAGUENESS.


----------



## Older Chauffeur

pengduck said:


> If I am truly an IC I can charge whatever someone is willing to pay. Not what is dictated to me. Look at it like this I go to the flea market and I have product x for sale. Joe sales his for $5.00. Mine is of a higher quality so I charge $7.00. There is no difference I offer a better service than do taxis and I do it in a more efficient manner. Therefore I have a premium product and the market will allow me to charge more. If I was an IC I would dictate the terms not Uber.


I think you are confusing being self employed, as in selling stuff at the flea market, with being an independent contractor where you sign a contract with a company which then sets the price for their products or services. I happen to do both. As a self employed individual, I have clients I drive in their own cars, for which I set my own rates. Then I also drive as an IC for a company that provides chauffeurs on an as needed basis, also using the clients' own cars. This company sets the rates and makes the rules, but as an IC I am allowed to accept or refuse any assignment.


----------



## Tx rides

Badbeat said:


> Well... as far as I know if you are in default of contract with a client, your contract is void...so no real argument for the employee side there... um...yea, the gratuity is not a real issue either... you as a IC can accept a cash payment for services rendered!


It is the "terms" of said contract which are being challenged.

From the class action complaint:
*[Drivers] are required to follow a litany of detailed requirements imposed on them by Uber and they are graded, and are subject to termination, based on their failure to adhere to these requirements (such as rules regarding their conduct with customers, the cleanliness of their vehicles, their timeliness in picking up customers and taking them to their destination, what they are allowed to say to customers, etc.)*

I could make a "contract" with our chauffeurs saying_ "We will use you when we need you, and need to you agree to be available during certain times, and when you ARE available you need to take nn% of the runs, even if the destination is going to leave you with a 40 minute deadhead drive. We will not be paying for your deadhead time, either. Refusal to take a loss will result in deactivation. By the way, you need to maintain a 95% approval rating to stay on our system, and if you don't, you get no chance to challenge low ratings. So you really don't even KNOW if you got a low rating from a passenger, now do you? By the way - we have already told your passenger that there is no need to tip, (are we saying it is included???) even if you manage to persuade them otherwise, we are not going to let them use their existing payment method to tip you."_

Great contract, if I want disgruntled chauffeurs - but that contract still would NOT make them contractors.

A great deal of this 'gray area' stuff, as well as insurance issues could have been avoided all along. They could have stayed with the Black model and expanded it. Why didn't they? Who knows. I do know that a large segment of the drivers will grow tired of the extreme ups and downs. It is hard enough to handle that in the traditional car service world. Now you have drivers with their own butts in the proverbial slings, going through the 'should I or shouldn't I" mode monthly. When they throw in the towel, then Uber will do the Driver Surge to bring more resources to town for games, festivals, etc. They will flood the street with drivers unfamiliar with the city, passengers will give crappy reviews, abuse the GOOD drivers who stayed with the system, those good drivers will burn out, and jump ship - lather, rinse, repeat. I've never seen a company so aggressively offensive to ALL stake holders - passengers, drivers, legislators, and competitors. Crazy.


----------



## DriverJ

Badbeat said:


> I rather be an IC!


Not with Uber you wouldn't!


----------



## DriverJ

Badbeat said:


> Was he not a genocidal maniac similar to Hitler?


Not at all. Hitler had a funny mustache.


----------



## Badbeat

DriverJ said:


> Not with Uber you wouldn't!


Yep....i already am


----------



## Badbeat

UberOne said:


> FedEx lost in these cases since the IRS listed them as employees, as they actually were, but were not treated as such. With Uber in the picture, I see a parallel in that we are up fronting the cost of everything, and it really blows.


Then do not do it...that is your option!

Man I can't understand this new liberal give me this generation! It is just Un-American!


----------



## DriverJ

Badbeat said:


> As an IC you are always at the mercy of the client, and that means cancelation without notice, the client/contractor relationship relies upon good faith by both parties.


Uber operates in 'Good Faith' never - in any regard. They are a sleazy, deceitful, greedy, piece of shit of a company. That can't be argued. It is a FACT! End of story. They display it for all the world to see, it's just that _some _of their passengers haven't been enlightened yet. I see it personally ever time I turn their shitty iPhone on and work to break even. UBER SUCKS!


----------



## Badbeat

DriverJ said:


> Uber operates in 'Good Faith' never - in any regard. They are a sleazy, deceitful, greedy, piece of shit of a company. That can't be argued. It is a FACT! End of story. They display it for all the world to see, it's just that _some _of their passengers haven't been enlightened yet. I see it personally ever time I turn their shitty iPhone on and work to break even. UBER SUCKS!


WOW!

Yet...here you are..quit then !!!!

Freedom!
You Got To Love It!
The Freedom Of Choice....!


----------



## Badbeat

I will grant the "take care of me crowd" this.......... UBER is setting a presidence.... the employee/employer relationship of tomorrow will vastly change as people simply log in/out of an app in exchange for freedom and an income!

I think the old school time clock punch in and out may be dead!


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Badbeat said:


> I will grant the "take care of me crowd" this.......... UBER is setting a presidence.... the employee/employer relationship of tomorrow will vastly change as people simply log in/out of an app in exchange for freedom and an income!
> 
> I think the old school time clock punch in and out may be dead!


The people with in-demand skills will always be treated with proper respect. Being an employee isn't exactly like being a slave you know. I think you have some emotional issues regarding authority. I'd look into that.


----------



## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> The people with in-demand skills will always be treated with proper respect. Being an employee isn't exactly like being a slave you know. I think you have some emotional issues regarding authority. I'd look into that.


I will ping my UBER therapist first thing Monday... first I need to dl my therapist app!


----------



## UberHammer

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> Being an employee isn't exactly like being a slave you know.


I complimented my wife once that her cooking isn't exactly like poop.

Not sure why she took it so negatively.

Oh wait, yes I do. And yes, I'm joking. I wouldn't try to present such an obviously negative statement as a positive thing, let alone to my wife.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

You should tell all the Google employees that they are slaves. I'm sure they could use a good laugh.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Badbeat said:


> Freedom does give you that right...enjoy it... I will choose to not reply with hate..... Got to love the founding fathers and the work they did to give us our freedom!
> 
> CHEERS!


bah, they ain't so great.

if they weren't such beer drinking hoo-ha's they would have put term limits on Congress.


----------



## Badbeat

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> bah, they ain't so great.
> 
> if they weren't such beer drinking hoo-ha's they would have put term limits on Congress.


Make no mistake....they were great... however, they did make a mistake with term limits!


----------



## DriverJ

Badbeat said:


> Freedom does give you that right...enjoy it... I will choose to not reply with hate..... Got to love the founding fathers and the work they did to give us our freedom!
> 
> CHEERS!


Honesty, that wasn'the out of hate. I don't hate anyone, especially someone I don't even know. I've let my situation with Uber really affect me. Obviously, at this point, you're right, I should just quit and put it behind me. It just makes me crazy to know that with a few changes Uber could be great for everyone. Maybe in a different market I'd be okay. It seems some people are satisfied. I have no problem putting the time and effort in to make Uber work for me, but at $1.15/mile it's not up to me. It's not just the fares though, with some of their other policies too, I just have to believe they have absolutely zero respect for drivers. Again, you and/or others may be perfectly happy.

Peace


----------



## drivernotfound

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Yes, they are gonna owe alot of overtime and employment taxes.


Don't worry. The IRS actually _gives breaks to businesses who decide to file their taxes after calling employees as contractors._
( http://www.irs.gov/file_source/pub/irs-pdf/p1976.pdf ) Essentially, if you promise to file correctly in the future, they allow you to not have to pay penalties on the back taxes owed! (I think that's what it means anyway, IANAL.)
This is why you can't have nice things. You're not a megabusiness.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

Badbeat said:


> Well... as far as I know if you are in default of contract with a client, your contract is void...so no real argument for the employee side there... um...yea, the gratuity is not a real issue either... you as a IC can accept a cash payment for services rendered!


You can add this drivel to all the other uneducated posts you make. If you default on a contract, you are in breach of contract. It is not "void." Additionally, a comtract between two parties does not "void" employment law.


----------



## Badbeat

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> You can add this drivel to all the other uneducated posts you make. If you default on a contract, you are in breach of contract. It is not "void." Additionally, a comtract between two parties does not "void" employment law.


If a company hires you as an IC, then you argue that you are an employee, I think you have an obligation to back up your argument by quiting!

PS: On a side not Ca should exempt itself from the U.S.!


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

Badbeat said:


> If a company hires you as an IC, then you argue that you are an employee, I think you have an obligation to back up your argument by quiting!
> 
> PS: On a side not Ca should exempt itself from the U.S.!


It doesn't matter what the company "hires you as". It matters how the company treats you and how much control they have over you. You can have a contract that says you are an IC, that you both agree to and both prefer, but that has no legal bearing on whether you are an employee or an IC.


----------



## DjTim

DriverJ said:


> Honesty, that wasn'the out of hate. I don't hate anyone, especially someone I don't even know. I've let my situation with Uber really affect me. Obviously, at this point, you're right, I should just quit and put it behind me. It just makes me crazy to know that with a few changes Uber could be great for everyone. Maybe in a different market I'd be okay. It seems some people are satisfied. I have no problem putting the time and effort in to make Uber work for me, but at $1.15/mile it's not up to me. It's not just the fares though, with some of their other policies too, I just have to believe they have absolutely zero respect for drivers. Again, you and/or others may be perfectly happy.
> 
> Peace


I'm glad you posted this. I think that there are MANY drivers that are disenfranchised like yourself. I think you are also right that Uber needs to change some of their policies to keep what they have started going long term. You are just like many folks out there that just like what they do, like to make an emotional investment into a company because you believe in what they "are about". The last company I was with - I loved it. I put in more hours then a normal person, I did things because I believed in that company. The last 2 years there, the company went to hell in a hand basket. The "culture" took a shit, drastically changed and I just couldn't work for them like that anymore. I dialed back my work hours, I dialed back my effort to a normal level and left. The culture didn't need to change but someone had a "vision" and it really sucked.

I think what will make Uber change will be going public. At that point, the control moves around from a private to a public entity and that can have some drastic consequences on the "old guard".


----------



## DriverJ

DjTim said:


> I'm glad you posted this. I think that there are MANY drivers that are disenfranchised like yourself. I think you are also right that Uber needs to change some of their policies to keep what they have started going long term. You are just like many folks out there that just like what they do, like to make an emotional investment into a company because you believe in what they "are about". The last company I was with - I loved it. I put in more hours then a normal person, I did things because I believed in that company. The last 2 years there, the company went to hell in a hand basket. The "culture" took a shit, drastically changed and I just couldn't work for them like that anymore. I dialed back my work hours, I dialed back my effort to a normal level and left. The culture didn't need to change but someone had a "vision" and it really sucked.
> 
> I think what will make Uber change will be going public. At that point, the control moves around from a private to a public entity and that can have some drastic consequences on the "old guard".


Great post, and I believe you're right. It will change, it will HAVE TO CHANGE. Unfortunately for me, I'm sure I'll be long gone, and not doing something I was ready to do until retirement. I was doing over twice the amount of trips per week over their 'best drivers,' according to Uber's little weekly metrics email. That wasn't because I drive better than anyone else, but just because I was dedicated, at first. Obviously, I won't be missed in any way. Uber won't suddenly experience a decrease in revenue, and the requests will be taken, but I'm sure there are many more like me out there. They're taking a hit, they just don't know it.

They can't see the forest for the trees ($$$).


----------



## HisShadowX

Badbeat said:


> If a company hires you as an IC, then you argue that you are an employee, I think you have an obligation to back up your argument by quiting!
> 
> PS: On a side not Ca should exempt itself from the U.S.!


Not true can file IRS form SS-8 the IRS will do an investigation and you and your employees will get a nice refund check next time you file taxes well your employer can be fined and pay the taxes they are obligated to pay and should have paid.

I know this because I went through this process in which a start up employer thought he could get away with trying to label his call center employees as contractors.


----------



## HisShadowX

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> It doesn't matter what the company "hires you as". It matters how the company treats you and how much control they have over you. You can have a contract that says you are an IC, that you both agree to and both prefer, but that has no legal bearing on whether you are an employee or an IC.


There is and its major crime and issue which entitles you to Unemployment, Overtime and many other things.

IRS form SS-8 can entitle you to taxes being paid back to you that your employer should have paid and you can go to the department of labor and file a wage claim which depending on the state can among in interest and fines to your employer.


----------



## HisShadowX

DriverJ said:


> Honesty, that wasn'the out of hate. I don't hate anyone, especially someone I don't even know. I've let my situation with Uber really affect me. Obviously, at this point, you're right, I should just quit and put it behind me. It just makes me crazy to know that with a few changes Uber could be great for everyone. Maybe in a different market I'd be okay. It seems some people are satisfied. I have no problem putting the time and effort in to make Uber work for me, but at $1.15/mile it's not up to me. It's not just the fares though, with some of their other policies too, I just have to believe they have absolutely zero respect for drivers. Again, you and/or others may be perfectly happy.
> 
> Peace


Regardless of how you feel if they are trying to cheat the system and government than you should file form SS-8


----------



## HisShadowX

Older Chauffeur said:


> I think you are confusing being self employed, as in selling stuff at the flea market, with being an independent contractor where you sign a contract with a company which then sets the price for their products or services. I happen to do both. As a self employed individual, I have clients I drive in their own cars, for which I set my own rates. Then I also drive as an IC for a company that provides chauffeurs on an as needed basis, also using the clients' own cars. This company sets the rates and makes the rules, but as an IC I am allowed to accept or refuse any assignment.


You cannot simply hire someone and claim they are an IC. Depending on the control you have over the driver that can determine what you really are.

Your going to want to do form SS-8 and let the IRS determine what's what.


----------



## HisShadowX

DjTim said:


> I don't think this will go federal. I think it will be argued on a state by state basis, because each state has their own rules around what IC & employee status means. Most likely it will be argued in California because they have a very strict definition around IC and employee definitions.
> 
> What would go federal is the class action lawsuit about monies owed to a driver, the case that is linked around here all the time.


Federal and State Department of Labors are commenting on this issue because state and federal taxes are at play and this also hurts a persons chance of getting unemployment and overtime when owed.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

HisShadowX said:


> There is and its major crime and issue which entitles you to Unemployment, Overtime and many other things.
> 
> IRS form SS-8 can entitle you to taxes being paid back to you that your employer should have paid and you can go to the department of labor and file a wage claim which depending on the state can among in interest and fines to your employer.


Of course there will be ramifications when the court declares Uber drivers employees. My point was that any contract between individuals declaring an IC relationship does not matter when the court makes that determination.


----------



## Badbeat

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Of course there will be ramifications when the court declares Uber drivers employees. My point was that any contract between individuals declaring an IC relationship does not matter when the court makes that determination.


If that happens....everyone loses...but the market place loses most of all


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

HisShadowX said:


> You cannot simply hire someone and claim they are an IC. Depending on the control you have over the driver that can determine what you really are.
> 
> Your going to want to do form SS-8 and let the IRS determine what's what.


The law is so vague that Uber was able to get by with the IC claim. However, recent court rulings here in California indicate the classification is wrong. One of the most recent rulings stated the ability of the hirer to discharge (or deactivate as Uber claims) the worker without cause is the most important factor of control. Uber loves to discharge/deactivate "at will." This is not going to go well for Uber in Cali. Illinois may be different.


----------



## Badbeat

HisShadowX said:


> Not true can file IRS form SS-8 the IRS will do an investigation and you and your employees will get a nice refund check next time you file taxes well your employer can be fined and pay the taxes they are obligated to pay and should have paid.
> 
> I know this because I went through this process in which a start up employer thought he could get away with trying to label his call center employees as contractors.


I would like to see a thread from each state concerning the issue, as I think that maybe what it comes down to, the socialist leaning states will side with the employee relationship...


----------



## Older Chauffeur

HisShadowX said:


> You cannot simply hire someone and claim they are an IC. Depending on the control you have over the driver that can determine what you really are.
> 
> Your going to want to do form SS-8 and let the IRS determine what's what.


Not sure why you quoted my post to make your point. The company for which I do IC work has already been vetted through lawsuits and IRS challenges, a nearly 30 year mom-and-pop operation. I've been associated with them for only twelve of those years. I work when I want, driving only for clients I wish to drive. They book the clients and do the billing, then pay me on a 1099 basis. Sometimes I work only once or twice a month. I pay income and self employment taxes (FICA) on my earnings. How is the government losing out? If the owners of the company wanted to get rid of me, they could just stop offering me work. California is an "at will" state, BTW. Now Uber is a different kettle of fish.......


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

Badbeat said:


> If that happens....everyone loses...but the market place loses most of all


I'm pretty sure most UberX drivers would make more as employees. It also opens up the possibility of tips. The workers comp rate in Cali for drivers is 23%. However, Uber does not have to pay workers comp on tip income. Therefore, it would be in their best interest to shift as much of the drivers earnings to tips as possible.


----------



## HisShadowX

Older Chauffeur said:


> Not sure why you quoted my post to make your point. The company for which I do IC work has already been vetted through lawsuits and IRS challenges, a nearly 30 year mom-and-pop operation. I've been associated with them for only twelve of those years. I work when I want, driving only for clients I wish to drive. They book the clients and do the billing, then pay me on a 1099 basis. Sometimes I work only once or twice a month. I pay income and self employment taxes (FICA) on my earnings. How is the government losing out? If the owners of the company wanted to get rid of me, they could just stop offering me work. California is an "at will" state, BTW. Now Uber is a different kettle of fish.......


Forget law suits and lawyers all you need to do is file IRS form SS-8. Forget the Judges the court system the IRS is the true power to fear in the United States.

The IRS also helps you determine whether your an IC or employee

It is critical that business owners correctly determine whether the individuals providing services are employees or independent contractors.

Generally, you must withhold income taxes, withhold and pay Social Security and Medicare taxes, and pay unemployment tax on wages paid to an employee. You do not generally have to withhold or pay any taxes on payments to independent contractors.

*Select the Scenario that Applies to You:*

*I am an independent contractor or in business for myselfIf you are a business owner or contractor who provides services to other businesses, then you are generally considered self-employed. For more information on your tax obligations if you are self-employed (an independent contractor), see our Self-Employed Tax Center.*
*I hire or contract with individuals to provide services to my business
If you are a business owner hiring or contracting with other individuals to provide services, you must determine whether the individuals providing services are employees or independent contractors. Follow the rest of this page to find out more about this topic and what your responsibilities are.*
*independent contractor*

*An employee (common-law employee)*

*A statutory employee*

*A statutory nonemployee*
*In determining whether the person providing service is an employee or an independent contractor, all information that provides evidence of the degree of control and independence must be considered.

Common Law Rules
Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories:
*

*Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?*
*Financial: Are the business aspects of the worker's job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)*
*Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?*
*Businesses must weigh all these factors when determining whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor. Some factors may indicate that the worker is an employee, while other factors indicate that the worker is an independent contractor. There is no "magic" or set number of factors that "makes" the worker an employee or an independent contractor, and no one factor stands alone in making this determination. Also, factors which are relevant in one situation may not be relevant in another.

The keys are to look at the entire relationship, consider the degree or extent of the right to direct and control, and finally, to document each of the factors used in coming up with the determination.

Form SS-8
If, after reviewing the three categories of evidence, it is still unclear whether a worker is an employee or an independent contractor, Form SS-8, Determination of Worker Status for Purposes of Federal Employment Taxes and Income Tax Withholding (PDF) can be filed with the IRS. The form may be filed by either the business or the worker. The IRS will review the facts and circumstances and officially determine the worker's status.

Be aware that it can take at least six months to get a determination, but a business that continually hires the same types of workers to perform particular services may want to consider filing the Form SS-8 (PDF).

Employment Tax Obligations
Once a determination is made (whether by the business or by the IRS), the next step is filing the appropriate forms and paying the associated taxes.
*

*Forms and associated taxes for independent contractors*
*Forms and associated taxes for employees*
*Employment Tax Guidelines
There are specific employment tax guidelines that must be followed for certain industries.
*

*Employment Tax Guidelines: Classifying Certain Van Operators in the Moving Industry *
*Employment Tax Procedures: Classification of Workers within the Limousine Industry *
*Misclassification of Employees
Consequences of Treating an Employee as an Independent Contractor
If you classify an employee as an independent contractor and you have no reasonable basis for doing so, you may be held liable for employment taxes for that worker (the relief provisions, discussed below, will not apply). See Internal Revenue Code section 3509 for more information.

Relief Provisions
If you have a reasonable basis for not treating a worker as an employee, you may be relieved from having to pay employment taxes for that worker. To get this relief, you must file all required federal information returns on a basis consistent with your treatment of the worker. You (or your predecessor) must not have treated any worker holding a substantially similar position as an employee for any periods beginning after 1977. See Publication 1976, Section 530 Employment Tax Relief Requirements (PDF) for more information.

Misclassified Workers Can File Social Security Tax Form
Workers who believe they have been improperly classified as independent contractors by an employer can use Form 8919, Uncollected Social Security and Medicare Tax on Wages to figure and report the employee's share of uncollected Social Security and Medicare taxes due on their compensation. See the full article Misclassified Workers to File New Social Security Tax Form for more information.

Voluntary Classification Settlement Program
The Voluntary Classification Settlement Program (VCSP) is a new optional program that provides taxpayers with an opportunity to reclassify their workers as employees for future tax periods for employment tax purposes with partial relief from federal employment taxes for eligible taxpayers that agree to prospectively treat their workers (or a class or group of workers) as employees. To participate in this new voluntary program, the taxpayer must meet certain eligibility requirements, apply to participate in the VCSP by filing Form 8952, Application for Voluntary Classification Settlement Program, and enter into a closing agreement with the IRS.*


----------



## Older Chauffeur

The judges hearing the cases might differ with your opinion, Shadow. Whatever, the IRS seems to have accepted the IC status for many years. Not saying I couldn't be audited and have the question come up, but they have survived challenges before, as I said in my earlier post. For my part, I have no interest in stirring up anything that will possibly come back to haunt me. Why bite the hand that feeds me? Also , as I previously mentioned, Uber is another kettle.....
So, to use another cliche' "You're preaching to the choir!" As long as my very conservative CPA and the IRS are happy, so am I. The SS-8 and all your quoted boilerplate I leave to my CPA, thanks just the same.


----------



## LAuberX

In regards to the IRS Form SS-8 it looks like it is in Uber's best interest to have drivers do Lyft and Sidecar also


----------



## Older Chauffeur

Good point, LAuber X. If a driver is doing this for other clients it looks more like he/she is an IC, which is what my situation is.


----------



## UL Driver SF

LAuberX said:


> In regards to the IRS Form SS-8 it looks like it is in Uber's best interest to have drivers do Lyft and Sidecar also


In the paperwork über gave you....it says you are free to work for other tnc's.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF said:


> In the paperwork über gave you....it says you are free to work for other tnc's.


Of course it does. And that's an argument that they will make toward the IC classification. They also don't 
train their drivers for the same reason. They obviously have a few arguments in their favor.


----------



## Tx rides

Badbeat said:


> I will grant the "take care of me crowd" this.......... UBER is setting a presidence.... the employee/employer relationship of tomorrow will vastly change as people simply log in/out of an app in exchange for freedom and an income!
> 
> I think the old school time clock punch in and out may be dead!


There is nothing new about that, Since slavery was abolished, people have been able to quit a job if that's what they wanted to do.


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Of course it does. And that's an argument that they will make toward the IC classification. They also don't
> train their drivers for the same reason. They obviously have a few arguments in their favor.


Which brings up another issue...the car lease.

People say they can only use it for uber. I'm not buying it. Uber doesn't write the lease or make the loan. A car dealer can't tell you what you can use a car for save certain circumstances. This is t one of them.

Just out of curiosity....what training do you need to do this job?


----------



## Tx rides

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Of course it does. And that's an argument that they will make toward the IC classification. They also don't
> train their drivers for the same reason. They obviously have a few arguments in their favor.


But in several cities, they have agreed to provide training. That, along with their rating and deactivation process will be used against them. Classic Software Startup Ignorance-Arrogance: they truly think some app changes EVERYTHING


----------



## Tx rides

UL Driver SF said:


> Which brings up another issue...the car lease.
> 
> People say they can only use it for uber. I'm not buying it. Uber doesn't write the lease or make the loan. A car dealer can't tell you what you can use a car for save certain circumstances. This is t one of them.
> 
> Just out of curiosity....what training do you need to do this job?


Well I know the kind of training we provide our chauffeurs. It includes many tours of the city, ins and outs of various venues, including the airport.
Many hours of customer service, using technology while driving, defensive and offense of driving,Recordkeeping, cleanliness, maintenance, communication with clients,time management...


----------



## Tx rides

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> So it is your view that if Uber were to provide any training of this sort, they would be encroaching upon employer status? Do companies ever train their independent contractors? That seems bizarre just typing it.


Of course! But they are typically companies which misclassify. The limo industry is full of of employers which misclassify.


----------



## UL Driver SF

Tx rides said:


> Well I know the kind of training we provide our chauffeurs. It includes many tours of the city, ins and outs of various venues, including the airport.
> Many hours of customer service, using technology while driving, defensive and offense of driving,Recordkeeping, cleanliness, maintenance, communication with clients,time management...


Wow....all that huh? Hmmm.....I don't know what to say. That is just impressive.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

Tx rides said:


> But in several cities, they have agreed to provide training. That, along with their rating and deactivation process will be used against them. Classic Software Startup Ignorance-Arrogance: they truly think some app changes EVERYTHING


Let me be 100% clear, I think Uber drivers are employees.

First and most importantly, the preponderance of evidence shows that Uber maintains a high level of control over its workers.

Second, all of the recent significant court rulings favor employee status.

Lastly, If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like duck...

The only chance I think Uber has is "the public wants us so we should be able to play by a different set of rules" strategy. To date, they have been very effective with this.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> The only chance I think Uber has is "the public wants us so we should be able to play by a different set of rules" strategy. To date, they have been very effective with this.


Yeah but the buck stops here. Enough is enough.


----------



## Tx rides

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Let me be 100% clear, I think Uber drivers are employees.
> 
> First and most importantly, the preponderance of evidence shows that Uber maintains a high level of control over its workers.
> 
> Second, all of the recent significant court rulings favor employee status.
> 
> Lastly, If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like duck...
> 
> The only chance I think Uber has is "the public wants us so we should be able to play by a different set of rules" strategy. To date, they have been very effective with this.


Indeed! Like I just told another, the "Rideshare" fallacy was responsible for much success with city regulators.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

Badbeat said:


> I will grant the "take care of me crowd" this.......... UBER is setting a presidence.... the employee/employer relationship of tomorrow will vastly change as people simply log in/out of an app in exchange for freedom and an income!
> 
> I think the old school time clock punch in and out may be dead!


Being classified as an employee would not restrict the log in/log out of the app. You would still be able to work whenever you wanted to. You would just have to be paid at least minumum wage for the hours logged in. And get overtime for more than 8 hours in a day.


----------



## Tx rides

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Let me be 100% clear, I think Uber drivers are employees.
> 
> First and most importantly, the preponderance of evidence shows that Uber maintains a high level of control over its workers.
> 
> Second, all of the recent significant court rulings favor employee status.
> 
> Lastly, If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like duck...
> 
> The only chance I think Uber has is "the public wants us so we should be able to play by a different set of rules" strategy. To date, they have been very effective with this.





UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Being classified as an employee would not restrict the log in/log out of the app. You would still be able to work whenever you wanted to. You would just have to be paid at least minumum wage for the hours logged in. And get overtime for more than 8 hours in a day.


and that is PRECISELY why we have little desire to guarantee on demand services, and plan to only offer such during designated peak hours-we pay our drivers rather well, and would go broke if we paid them to sit in wait. Uber just passes that loss to their "contractors"


----------



## Tx rides

UL Driver SF said:


> Wow....all that huh? Hmmm.....I don't know what to say. That is just impressive.


Well it's part of the gig. And while $5 Uber runs don't warrant that service Level, the surge price runs which drivers need to hit bank certainly do, since hey are competing with limo companies at high rates.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

Tx rides said:


> and that is PRECISELY why we have little desire to guarantee on demand services, and plan to only offer such during designated peak hours-we pay our drivers rather well, and would go broke if we paid them to sit in wait. Uber just passes that loss to their "contractors"


And they pass insurance costs on to the personal auto insurance pool.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

You two are on fire tonight.


----------



## Tx rides

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> And they pass insurance costs on to the personal auto insurance pool.


And IMO they give Capitalists And Libertarians a bad name. I wear both labels, and vehemently disagree with their policies


----------



## UL Driver SF

Tx rides said:


> Well it's part of the gig. And while $5 Uber runs don't warrant that service Level, the surge price runs which drivers need to hit bank certainly do, since hey are competing with limo companies at high rates.


You realize I was being sarcastic right?


----------



## Tx rides

UL Driver SF said:


> You realize I was being sarcastic right?


Why? You askeD what kind of training would one need to be a driver, I shared how we train our drivers. Guess my d-bag detector is on the fritz


----------



## UL Driver SF

Tx rides said:


> Why? You askeD what kind of training would one need to be a driver, I shared how we train our drivers. Guess my d-bag detector is on the fritz


Probably burned out from constantly detecting the owner.


----------



## Tx rides

UL Driver SF said:


> Probably burned out from constantly detecting the owner.


Didn't realize I was responding to an ass. Thought I was discussing a real issue. Last time I'll make that mistake.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF said:


> You realize I was being sarcastic right?


Be careful UL driver, if you are implying that no training is needed because drivers do not have a specialized skill set, then you are arguing against the IC classification. You were arguing the wrong way and didnt even know it! Hahaha


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Be careful UL driver, if you are implying that no training is needed because drivers do not have a specialized skill set, then you are arguing against the IC classification. You were arguing the wrong way and didnt even know it! Hahaha


Uh no. You don't need a specialized skill set to be an independent contractor.

And no...driving an average 4 door sedan is not a specialized skill set.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

UL Driver SF said:


> Uh no. You don't need a specialized skill set to be an independent contractor.
> 
> And no...driving an average 4 door sedan is not a specialized skill set.


So you believe you're contracting out a zero skill service? Then why would you gladly accept less than the minimum wage?


----------



## UberHammer

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Being classified as an employee would not restrict the log in/log out of the app. You would still be able to work whenever you wanted to. You would just have to be paid at least minumum wage for the hours logged in. And get overtime for more than 8 hours in a day.


Awesome! I live 20 mile outside of the city. I'll just turn the app on, sit on my ass and watch TV. I'll never get a ping! I'll leave it on 24/7 and get 128 hours of overtime pay per week! I LOVE THIS PLAN!!!


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

UberHammer said:


> Awesome! I live 20 mile outside of the city. I'll just turn the app on, sit on my ass and watch TV. I'll never get a ping! I'll leave it on 24/7 and get 128 hours of overtime pay per week! I LOVE THIS PLAN!!!


This just proves that Uber's business model is impossible, EXCEPT if they can deceive drivers / insurance companies / local governments into accepting all the risks and/or losses.

Also in this situation you would have to accept every ping you got, even ones that are like 60 minutes away. If you don't you're fired.


----------



## Lidman

Very entertaining posts. Time to break out the chips.


----------



## Tx rides

Lidman said:


> Very entertaining posts. Time to break out the chips.


Potato ... Or poker??? Lol


----------



## Lidman

Ubers appeal only appeals to them and the riders. They have way too much power over the drivers when it comes to monetary transactions. That is why I only do lyft once a week. The reason why these companies frown upon cash transactions is not because they're concerned about drivers getting robber, but because they have total dominance over the transactions as mentioned above.

So if tipping is frowned upon, then they raise the rates and try to appease the drivers for a change. Cause if they don't, they'll lose most of them. Drivers are just as important as passengers.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Exactly. It's all about control. People ask why Uber wouldn't want cash tips to occur, it's not harming Uber at all right? Wrong. They perceive it has harm because it is a financial transaction that is out of their control. They want it OUT OF THE EQUATION. That's why even an in-app tipping option is not going to happen. THEY WANT TIPPING *GONE.*


----------



## UberHustla

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> Exactly. It's all about control. People ask why Uber wouldn't want cash tips to occur, it's not harming Uber at all right? Wrong. They perceive it has harm because it is a financial transaction that is out of their control. They want it OUT OF THE EQUATION. That's why even an in-app tipping option is not going to happen. THEY WANT TIPPING *GONE.*


Maybe if they took 20% of tips too?


----------



## Tx rides

Lidman said:


> Ubers appeal only appeals to them and the riders. They have way too much power over the drivers when it comes to monetary transactions. That is why I only do lyft once a week. The reason why these companies frown upon cash transactions is not because they're concerned about drivers getting robber, but because they have total dominance over the transactions as mentioned above.
> 
> So if tipping is frowned upon, then they raise the rates and try to appease the drivers for a change. Cause if they don't, they'll lose most of them. Drivers are just as important as passengers.


You should probably explore running your own little car service.if you enjoy it, there is decent money to be made. Not so much when there's a middleman, especially if the middleman keeps such a high percentage.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UberHammer said:


> Awesome! I live 20 mile outside of the city. I'll just turn the app on, sit on my ass and watch TV. I'll never get a ping! I'll leave it on 24/7 and get 128 hours of overtime pay per week! I LOVE THIS PLAN!!!


Haha, I'm quite certain you would be fired if you don't perform.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF said:


> Uh no. You don't need a specialized skill set to be an independent contractor.
> 
> And no...driving an average 4 door sedan is not a specialized skill set.


Basic level of skill is a factor
http://media.bizj.us/view/img/3877101/sac-bee-decision.pdf
read page 6


----------



## UberHammer

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Haha, I'm quite certain you would be fired if you don't perform.


Or they could just pay me for each job I performed.

Oh wait, some drivers want their compensation to be based on the moment they went online to the moment they went offline. Thus this ridiculous employee/IC debate.


----------



## Berliner

UberHammer said:


> Awesome! I live 20 mile outside of the city. I'll just turn the app on, sit on my ass and watch TV. I'll never get a ping! I'll leave it on 24/7 and get 128 hours of overtime pay per week! I LOVE THIS PLAN!!!


Could be a good deal. And don´t forget: a week has 168 hours. If you are online the whole time you don`t need private insurance for your car, said Mr. Raiser.


----------



## UberHammer

Berliner said:


> Could be a good deal.* And don´t forget: a week has 168 hours*. If you are online the whole time you don`t need private insurance for your car, said Mr. Raiser.


Yeah, but overtime doesn't kick in until after 40 hours worked. Thus why I said 128 hours of overtime.


----------



## Tx rides

UberHammer said:


> Or they could just pay me for each job I performed.
> 
> Oh wait, some drivers want their compensation to be based on the moment they went online to the moment they went offline. Thus this ridiculous employee/IC debate.


Well that's a big deal...you have to have drivers waiting to go pick someone up, or you cannot guarantee instant availability. However,anyone who agrees to wait for a ping without being paid is setting themselves up for failure, particularly if the fare is low. This is not a new conundrum, even though several tech companies believe a phone app eradicated the challenges. Traditional car services have always struggled with this. If there was money to be made doing this, believe me, we would've all been doing this all along. The truth is, our drivers have to get paid in order to be available to pick people up in a moments notice. Outside of major events, We cannot charge enough to make sure that driver is compensated to make it worth our time or the drivers time. Nothing has really changed, except these technology companies have put the burden of unpaid wait time on the drivers.


----------



## UberHammer

Tx rides said:


> Well that's a big deal...you have to have drivers waiting to go pick someone up, or you cannot guarantee instant availability. However,anyone who agrees to wait for a ping without being paid is setting themselves up for failure, particularly if the fare is low. This is not a new conundrum, even though several tech companies believe a phone app eradicated the challenges. Traditional car services have always struggled with this. If there was money to be made doing this, believe me, we would've all been doing this all along. The truth is, our drivers have to get paid in order to be available to pick people up in a moments notice. Outside of major events, We cannot charge enough to make sure that driver is compensated to make it worth our time or the drivers time. Nothing has really changed, except these technology companies have put the burden of unpaid wait time on the drivers.


After 20 years of working in IT, I've spent thousands of hours being on call nights and weekends, never being paid for one minute of it. I only got paid if someone called and I had to do work to solve their problem. What Uber is doing isn't new.


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Basic level of skill is a factor
> http://media.bizj.us/view/img/3877101/sac-bee-decision.pdf
> read page 6


You said specialized skills. Not basic. You can have basic skills that allow you to be an IC.

Also, they are not the Only factor.

It is funny though that your trying to compare delivering news papers to passenger delivery.

Good luck with trying to make that leap. Once again....reading with out any context of how cases related to each other in a broader spectrum.


----------



## UL Driver SF

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> So you believe you're contracting out a zero skill service? Then why would you gladly accept less than the minimum wage?


I said no such thing. You can't even be honest about what I said even when you quote it. LOL!!!

So much for your credibility.

Let's address the next claim...well lie that is.....

How do you know I make minimum wage? Tell me the exact amounts of the last 8 deposits made in to my account from Uber. Tell ya what....just tell me the exact amount of any of them, the. Post up the proof here.

Or you can just admit what we already know. That you lied.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

UL Driver SF,

If a job requires no training of any kind, then it can safely be assumed to be a zero skill job. 

I don't know how much money you make, but it certainly isn't above minimum wage at all times. No Uber driver could say such a thing. I'm sorry for suggesting that you should be making more money.


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberHammer said:


> After 20 years of working in IT, I've spent thousands of hours being on call nights and weekends, never being paid for one minute of it. I only got paid if someone called and I had to do work to solve their problem. What Uber is doing isn't new.


Not only is it not new, it's been upheld in other industry classification. Look into court reporters as a good example.

Anyway...you gotta love the couch potato lawyers. They are entertaining if nothing else.


----------



## UL Driver SF

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> UL Driver SF,
> 
> If a job requires no training of any kind, then it can safely be assumed to be a zero skill job.
> 
> I don't know how much money you make, but it certainly isn't above minimum wage at all times. No Uber driver could say such a thing. I'm sorry for suggesting that you should be making more money.


You should re read my quote. I know it doesn't support what you want to say but it might help you save some face.

So...you have no proof. Got it. That's all ya had to say. But by all means keep digging. We will keep laughing.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

UL Driver SF said:


> You should re read my quote. I know it doesn't support what you want to say but it might help you save some face.


I'm not interested in engaging in an angry debate with you . If you wish, you can consider yourself having won the debate, and the face. It does not seem like you are interested in honest debate either, just insinuating things in a passive aggressive manner.



UL Driver SF said:


> So...you have no proof. Got it. That's all ya had to say. But by all means keep digging. We will keep laughing.


I'm glad that you are happy with the outcome of your forum posting .


----------



## UL Driver SF

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> I'm not interested in engaging in an angry debate with you . If you wish, you can consider yourself having won the debate, and the face. It does not seem like you are interested in honest debate either, just insinuating things in a passive aggressive manner.
> 
> I'm glad that you are happy with the outcome of your forum posting .


No anger at all. So...still no facts? No accurate quotes? Talk about dishonest. You should work on that.

Do you always retreat this fast when outed on your dishonesty? I realize that you like to run around throwing out unsubstantiated claims and all.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

UL Driver SF said:


> No anger at all. So...still no facts? No accurate quotes? Talk about dishonest. You should work on that.
> 
> Do you always retreat this fast when outed on your dishonesty?


I have made no lies of any kind, nor was I dishonest in any way. If you wish to accuse me of such, I do say you should post VERY SPECIFICALLY what your claim is, rather than being passive aggressive about it . Please note that if your response is just passive aggressiveness, rather than the specific allegation that I asked for, I will not be responding to it . If this is to occur, you are free to take my lack of response in any manner that you wish, but I will not engage with your unclear and unloving behavior .


----------



## Tx rides

UberHammer said:


> After 20 years of working in IT, I've spent thousands of hours being on call nights and weekends, never being paid for one minute of it. I only got paid if someone called and I had to do work to solve their problem. What Uber is doing isn't new.


The only reason you were not paid is because our politicians wrote software engineering into the exempt category. Much of that has changed as well. IBM lost a major lawsuit a few years ago for that very reason. If you are servicing a customer, under certain conditions, you are entitled to overtime even in IT. There are specific wage laws written for the limousine industry. Drivers must get paid for waiting on call.


----------



## UL Driver SF

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> I have made no lies of any kind, nor was I dishonest in any way. If you wish to accuse me of such, I do say you should post VERY SPECIFICALLY what your claim is, rather than being passive aggressive about it . Please note that if your response is just passive aggressiveness, rather than the specific allegation that I asked for, I will not be responding to it . If this is to occur, you are free to take my lack of response in any manner that you wish, but I will not engage with your unclear and unloving behavior .


Sure you did. You even did it with my quote just above your post. The proof was right there in your post. There is your specific proof.

You made a claim about how much I make. Yet have yet to supply your evidence to back up your claim.

So..you supplied the proof of your dishonesty. I know it stings you that you got caught. But it will be ok. Well your credibility will never recover but you will be ok. LOL!!!

Passive aggressive....hahahahahha....amateur psychologist.


----------



## Tx rides

UberHammer said:


> After 20 years of working in IT, I've spent thousands of hours being on call nights and weekends, never being paid for one minute of it. I only got paid if someone called and I had to do work to solve their problem. What Uber is doing isn't new.


One other major differences this: most people in the IT business with enough skill to be on call are earning far above minimum hourly rates, even if they work 60 for 40. With uber drivers, unless they are getting surge fares(and if they are waiting, that's not likely) two hours to get 2 runs may well be far below minimum wage.


----------



## UberHammer

Tx rides said:


> The only reason you were not paid is because our politicians wrote software engineering into the exempt category. Much of that has changed as well. IBM lost a major lawsuit a few years ago for that very reason. If you are servicing a customer, under certain conditions, you are entitled to overtime even in IT. There are specific wage laws written for the limousine industry. Drivers must get paid for waiting on call.


I am not a software engineer. When I got a call, I got paid overtime for servicing the call. I did NOT get paid for just being on call.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

UL Driver SF said:


> Sure you did. You even did it with my quote just above your post. The proof was right there in your post. There is your specific proof.
> 
> You made a claim about how much I make. Yet have yet to supply your evidence to back up your claim.
> 
> So..you supplied the proof of your dishonesty. I know it stings you that you got caught. But it will be ok. Well your credibility will never recover but you will be ok. LOL!!!
> 
> Passive aggressive....hahahahahha....amateur psychologist.


Thank you for your less than unclear response . I believe you are referring to this post that I made:



DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> So you believe you're contracting out a zero skill service? Then why would you gladly accept less than the minimum wage?


Here I made no such claim as to your current take-home wages, but merely asked a question about why you would accept less than the minimum wage from Uber for your zero skill service, which you do accept every time you log into the app, by virtue of the fact that Uber is not guaranteeing you the minimum wage. I thought this was a pertinent question, because other people who perform zero skill services are guaranteed the minimum wage, at minimum, for any second of which that they work.

You then proceeded to avoid this question rather than answer it. You do not have to answer the question, though. You are free to answer or avoid any question that you wish .

Has my response been helpful to you?


----------



## UberHammer

Tx rides said:


> One other major differences this: most people in the IT business with enough skill to be on call are earning far above minimum hourly rates, even if they work 60 for 40. With uber drivers, unless they are getting surge fares(and if they are waiting, that's not likely) two hours to get 2 runs may well be far below minimum wage.


You'll get no disagreement from me that Uber/Lyft rates are too low. I agree that they need to be raised. But they can be raised without the need to recognize drivers as employees. It's the employee/IC position I'm debating.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF, you need to cite sources or we have to take your drivel with a grain of salt. Start reading and learning on the subject and it may become clear to you. I understand you value your job that you get paid less than minimum wage to do, but getting on here and defending Uber's policies is really a losing battle for you. The vast majority of people want change. You are happy. We are happy for you.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UberHammer said:


> You'll get no disagreement from me that Uber/Lyft rates are too low. I agree that they need to be raised. But they can be raised without the need to recognize drivers as employees. It's the employee/IC position I'm debating.


We are not discussing the "need". That is a whole other subject. Whether it is needed or not, there is a case in court right now that is deciding the issue. Then Uber will lock it up in appeals for years. So you have nothing to worry about. You will not be driving for Uber a year from now.


----------



## UL Driver SF

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> Thank you for your less than unclear response . I believe you are referring to this post that I made:
> 
> Here I made no such claim as to your current take-home wages, but merely asked a question about why you would accept less than the minimum wage from Uber for your zero skill service, which you do accept every time you log into the app, by virtue of the fact that Uber is not guaranteeing you the minimum wage. I thought this was a pertinent question, because other people who perform zero skill services are guaranteed the minimum wage, at minimum, for any second of which that they work.
> 
> You then proceeded to avoid this question rather than answer it. You do not have to answer the question, though. You are free to answer or avoid any question that you wish .
> 
> Has my response been helpful to you?


It was clear. It just bugs you that you got called out for your dishonesty. You can admit it. It will help your personal growth.

Sure you did. You made the claim of accepting minimum wage. Which by the way you have yet to provide proof. I know I know....you will avoid supplying that proof. Well you won't because you can't.

The claim of zero skill service was your claim. You tried to attribute it to me even though in my quote I said no such thing.

So..now that you have tried and failed once again to cover yer ass on a lie.....what's next? Cow tipping? Gonna threaten to not answer again? Come on. You can do better than that.

Well....maybe you can't.


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> UL Driver SF, you need to cite sources or we have to take your drivel with a grain of salt. Start reading and learning on the subject and it may become clear to you. I understand you value your job that you get paid less than minimum wage to do, but getting on here and defending Uber's policies is really a losing battle for you. The vast majority of people want change. You are happy. We are happy for you.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

The case isnt even adjudicated yet. You toss out anecdotal cases that you don't even know if they have a bearing on the case. How many cases like this have you been involved in again? Oh that's right...yer not a lawyer. Ever been involved in one? Probably not. But one thing is for certain....I bet you think you know far more than the attys working this case. Here's a hint...court cases are not decided based on your "want".

Good luck with that.

Ahhhh...another wage claim....yet still with no proof. It's sad really. I am curious though....

Why does it bother you so much that other do so much better with this job than you? I'm not talking money. I have no idea what you make. But you are so unhappy. Hmmm.....do you feel that you don't deserve to be happy at your job? If not...them why do you stay?

Oh btw...want in one hand...shit in the other and see which one fills up first.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

UL Driver SF,

Thank you so much for writing your response in a much clearer manner than usual . Please note that this is noticed and appreciated by me .



UL Driver SF said:


> You made the claim of accepting minimum wage. Which by the way you have yet to provide proof. I know I know....you will avoid supplying that proof. Well you won't because you can't.


It appears as if you did not read my response very well . I already addressed this very question . Please reread my post. Here, I will copy/paste the pertinent information for you, rather than leave you guessing, which is sometimes what you do (part of your passive aggressive behavior patterns ):



DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> Here I made no such claim as to your current take-home wages, but merely asked a question about why you would accept less than the minimum wage from Uber for your zero skill service, which you do accept every time you log into the app, by virtue of the fact that Uber is not guaranteeing you the minimum wage. I thought this was a pertinent question, because other people who perform zero skill services are guaranteed the minimum wage, at minimum, for any second of which that they work.


Please make a sincere effort to read my post, as I have made a sincere effort to create it . It is the least that you can do .



UL Driver SF said:


> The claim of zero skill service was your claim. You tried to attribute it to me even though in my quote I said no such thing.


You mentioned that your particular skill, driving people around, required no training. I made the next logical step which is to say the job must be a zero skill job, otherwise known colloquially as a minimum wage job . Does that make sense? I could explain the logic again in a different manner if you need it . Just ask  !



UL Driver SF said:


> So..now that you have tried and failed once again to cover yer ass on a lie.....what's next? Cow tipping? Gonna threaten to not answer again? Come on. You can do better than that.


I do not wish to make threats, but please note that if it is clear that you are not reading what I am typing, then I obviously will not be engaging with you further . Why should I write for someone who does not read?  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, logically, if you think about it . Would you like me to explain the logic? Just ask  !


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberHammer said:


> You'll get no disagreement from me that Uber/Lyft rates are too low. I agree that they need to be raised. But they can be raised without the need to recognize drivers as employees. It's the employee/IC position I'm debating.


There is a way to get rates raised with out involving Uber at all. Their consent is not needed to accomplish this.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF said:


> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
> 
> The case isnt even adjudicated yet. You toss out anecdotal cases that you don't even know if they have a bearing on the case. How many cases like this have you been involved in again? Oh that's right...yer not a lawyer. Ever been involved in one? Probably not. But one thing is for certain....I bet you think you know far more than the attys working this case. Here's a hint...court cases are not decided based on your "want".
> 
> Good luck with that.
> 
> Ahhhh...another wage claim....yet still with no proof. It's sad really. I am curious though....
> 
> Why does it bother you so much that other do so much better with this job than you? I'm not talking money. I have no idea what you make. But you are so unhappy. Hmmm.....do you feel that you don't deserve to be happy at your job? If not...them why do you stay?
> 
> Oh btw...want in one hand...shit in the other and see which one fills up first.


If you were following the current case, you would know that these two cases do have a bearing in the case. Educate yourself.

For the record, I no longer drive for Uber. I have a few cars that are still active and have a driver that will do runs every now and then. But for the most part, I stay active on the platform to get the rebates on my new vehicles.


----------



## UL Driver SF

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> UL Driver SF,
> 
> Thank you so much for writing your response in a much clearer manner than usual . Please note that this is noticed and appreciated by me .
> 
> It appears as if you did not read my response very well . I already addressed this very question . Please reread my post. Here, I will copy/paste the pertinent information for you, rather than leave you guessing, which is sometimes what you do (part of your passive aggressive behavior patterns ):
> 
> Please make a sincere effort to read my post, as I have made a sincere effort to create it . It is the least that you can do .
> 
> You mentioned that your particular skill, driving people around, required no training. I made the next logical step which is to say the job must be a zero skill job, otherwise known colloquially as a minimum wage job . Does that make sense? I could explain the logic again in a different manner if you need it . Just ask  !
> 
> I do not wish to make threats, but please note that if it is clear that you are not reading what I am typing, then I obviously will not be engaging with you further . Why should I write for someone who does not read?  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, logically, if you think about it . Would you like me to explain the logic? Just ask  !


So let's recap.....

Still no proof of your wage claim.
Still trying to cover your ass on getting caught being dishonest.
Still trying to make excuses for what you posted before.
Still responding when ya said you weren't going to.

Wow....you really can't help your self can you?


----------



## UberHammer

By the way, limo drivers are paid for being on call when they are required to be at a specific location at specific times when on call.

For example, when a limo driver has to be on call from Saturday noon to 8 PM and is required to be within three minutes of the airport while on call, the law entitles them to be paid for being on call.

If that same limo driver is not required to cover the airport noon to 8 PM Saturday on call shift, but chooses to be on call during the same time period, while at any location of his choice, the law does not entitle that driver to be paid for being on call.

The limo company could choose to pay him for being on call though. It is their discretion.


----------



## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

UL Driver SF said:


> So let's recap.....
> 
> Still no proof of your wage claim.
> Still trying to cover your ass on getting caught being dishonest.
> Still trying to make excuses for what you posted before.
> Still responding when ya said you weren't going to.
> 
> Wow....you really can't help your self can you?


It is clear that you are not reading what I write, rather, you are simply hitting the reply button (perhaps after a cursory glance for something you desire out of the post), then writing whatever it is that you want to say . I will not be engaging with you further, unless of course you choose (and it has to be a personal choice on your behalf ) to read what I wrote, and then genuinely respond to it .

I wish you the greatest of times with your evening tonight .


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> If you were following the current case, you would know that these two cases do have a bearing in the case. Educate yourself.
> 
> For the record, I no longer drive for Uber. I have a few cars that are still active and have a driver that will do runs every now and then. But for the most part, I stay active on the platform to get the rebates on my new vehicles.


How do you know they have relevancy in this case? Have they been presented in argument regarding Ubers case by either side? You might want to educate yourself on how court arguments are made and cases decided. Or don't and keep making a fool of yourself. It is entertaining.

You dont drive for Uber but you still have cars that are active and a driver who uses Uber. So for all the bad uber is, you still use them. Hmmm.....can't be that bad then. You support them, and benefit from them, through your business.

What rebates does the platform...I take it ubers platform....get you that can't be gotten by others on vehicles? I have relatives that run car dealerships. This should be interesting.


----------



## UL Driver SF

DriversOfTheWorldUnite said:


> It is clear that you are not reading what I write, rather, you are simply hitting the reply button (perhaps after a cursory glance for something you desire out of the post), then writing whatever it is that you want to say . I will not be engaging with you further, unless of course you choose (and it has to be a personal choice on your behalf ) to read what I wrote, and then genuinely respond to it .
> 
> I wish you the greatest of times with your evening tonight .


Awwww.....so...you just can't stay away. Look...you can ease your mind by coming clean. Or don't.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF said:


> How do you know they have relevancy in this case? Have they been presented in argument regarding Ubers case by either side? Educate yourself. Or don't and keep making a fool of yourself. It is entertaining.
> 
> You dont drive for Uber but you still have cars that are active and a driver who uses Uber. So for all the bad uber is, you still use them. Hmmm.....can't be that bad then. You support them, and benefit from them, through your business.
> 
> What rebates does the platform...I take it ubers platform....get you that can't be gotten by others on vehicles? I have relatives that run car dealerships. This should be interesting.


Yes, I have done research into the current case and found out these cases are being used.

The Uber rebate on the 2015 Suburban is $5000. It takes my all in price on an LT from 57k to 52k.


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Yes, I have done research into the current case and found out these cases are being used.
> 
> The Uber rebate on the 2015 Suburban is $5000. It takes my all in price on an LT from 57k to 52k.


Outstanding! I am duly impressed! Most people do not read cases or look into what's is actually being argued by what side and how, at the present, it has been received. You are above average in this instance. I will take your word that you actually did this.

As for the Suburban...I will ask my brother in law. He runs a Chevy dealership. I will ask him if he has ever seen the "uber" discount and what it is exactly.

Is this rebate listed specifically as an uber only rebate? Is it dealer specific or nation wide? Some apply only to a market.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF said:


> Outstanding! I am duly impressed! Most people do not read cases or look into what's is actually being argued by what side and how, at the present, it has been received. You are above average in this instance. I will take your word that you actually did this.
> 
> As for the Suburban...I will ask my brother in law. He runs a Chevy dealership. I will ask him if he has ever seen the "uber" discount and what it is exactly.
> 
> Is this rebate listed specifically as an uber only rebate? Is it dealer specific or nation wide? Some apply only to a market.


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## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> View attachment 2832


Cool....he runs a Toyota Chevy dealership. Well....they have the honda shop also and the Chrysler, jeep, dodge store as well. I will shoot that over to him and see how it works.


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## UberHammer

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> View attachment 2832


Gotta love the "up to".

Let me guess, $4750 off requires 4750 Uber trips to be completed, right?


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## Tx rides

UberHammer said:


> You'll get no disagreement from me that Uber/Lyft rates are too low. I agree that they need to be raised. But they can be raised without the need to recognize drivers as employees. It's the employee/IC position I'm debating.


The wage has nothing to do with classification. And yes they could increase the pay without making them employees. The problem is some of the other things they do which do make them tend to be employees not independent contractors. It was a lot more black-and-white when they went with licensed, permitted operators.
In that case, they dealt with a company, not an individual. Training was in the hands of the owner/operator, and they truly could claim they were just a platform.now, they will hire anyone with a clear drivers license and background check.more and more cities are forcing them into some type of education/training programs which pushes them even further over the employer line. The rating and deactivation process in which the drivers have no say is another feather in the cap for the attorneys behind this class-action lawsuit. The "platform only" argument is very weak.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

"up to", a marketer's best friend.


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## UL Driver SF

UberHammer said:


> Gotta love the "up to".
> 
> Let me guess, $4750 off requires 4750 Uber trips to be completed, right?


Rebates can be tricky. Is the über rebate in addition to other rebates? Is it for a lease or purchase? Is it for a commercial loan, standard loan, or both? Is it a rebadged rebate that applies stand alone?

The wording looks fishy. Doesn't mean you can't end up with 10k off a vehicle. Another issue would be that it doesn't say it is an uber specific discount. It just says Über and to the right it says discounts up to. Occupational rebates usually specify only available to or the requirements of. Such as military member rebates.


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## DriversOfTheWorldUnite

Tx rides said:


> The wage has nothing to do with classification. And yes they could increase the pay without making them employees. The problem is some of the other things they do which do make them tend to be employees not independent contractors. It was a lot more black-and-white when they went with licensed, permitted operators.
> In that case, they dealt with a company, not an individual. Training was in the hands of the owner/operator, and they truly could claim they were just a platform.now, they will hire anyone with a clear drivers license and background check.more and more cities are forcing them into some type of education/training programs which pushes them even further over the employer line. The rating and deactivation process in which the drivers have no say is another feather in the cap for the attorneys behind this class-action lawsuit. The "platform only" argument is very weak.


That being said, never underestimate the power of corruption in the judicial system.


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## UberBlackDriverLA

UberHammer said:


> Gotta love the "up to".
> 
> Let me guess, $4750 off requires 4750 Uber trips to be completed, right?


No gimmicks, email your Uber customer service rep and get the details. I got 5k off


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## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> No gimmicks, email your Uber customer service rep and get the details. I got 5k off


Was there any other rebates that went with it?

Wait a min...you only got 5k off?


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