# Uber Self-Driving Car Was At Fault For Running Red Light In December



## Jo3030

Uber Self-Driving Car Was At Fault For Running Red Light In December

Link: http://hothardware.com/news/uber-se...ult-for-running-red-light#gSPBHMGQ77Y6qkew.99

In the words of Britney Spears, Uber is "not that innocent". It was recently disclosed that Uber's self-driving car was at fault for running a red light in December.

Last year one of Uber's self-driving Volvo's ran a red light near San Francisco's Museum of Modern Art. The company claimed that the incident was due to human error and they suspended the employee who had been riding in the vehicle at the time. Uber's own internal documents and information from two anonymous Uber employees have revealed that the self-driving vehicle was actually in the wrong. Uber's mapping program failed to recognize six red lights in San Francisco and, "in this case, the car went through a red light".









Uber was kicked off the streets of California this past autumn due to the fact that the company had started testing its self-driving cars before receiving an autonomous vehicles driving permit. California requires that self-driving vehicles be tested by the Department of Motor Vehicles before they go out on the road. Other companies have complied, however, Uber insisted that it did not need a permit, since the vehicles were not "fully" autonomous. Uber refused to apply for a permit, but was "open to having the conversation". It turns out that the California DMV was not "open" to smoke-filled back-room deals and stuck to their guns.

The red light incident was one of the reasons Uber did not receive a permit in California. The vehicles also had a difficult time handling bike lanes. When in self-driving mode, Uber's vehicle tend to make "unsafe right-hook-style turn through a bike lane". The blind spot is the self-driving car's number one cause of collision. Many blame Anthony Levandowski, Uber's driverless car operation leader at the time, for his overeagerness. Levandowski had been quoted saying, "was eager to commercialize a self-driving vehicle as quickly as possible".


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## Jo3030

Remember the lies they told regarding 'they suspended the engineer that was in the car at the time' ? ??? lol

Buncha crooks and liars.


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## heynow321

if they're lying about these types of failures, imagine what else they will lie about. Don't worry...perfectly safe...trust us...even though you not trusting us will cost us billions so we have every incentive to lie to you to get you to trust us but don't worry about that...we're good people! look at our past track record of what great people we are! come on....trust us.


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## tohunt4me

heynow321 said:


> if they're lying about these types of failures, imagine what else they will lie about. Don't worry...perfectly safe...trust us...even though you not trusting us will cost us billions so we have every incentive to lie to you to get you to trust us but don't worry about that...we're good people! look at our past track record of what great people we are! come on....trust us.


Imagine what has been done to Drivers based on.lies ?


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## RamzFanz

Anonymous sources and unverified documentation. We'll see.


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## tohunt4me

Actually there were 2 cars filmed running red lights. One was shot out of rear window of a Lyft car by a Lyft passenger. On YouTube.


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## heynow321

RamzFanz said:


> Anonymous sources and unverified documentation. We'll see.


If it's not true uber should sue for libel. At least force a retraction. Oh wait, it's true.


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## Gung-Ho

Remember the genius of these SDC's are they that they learn from other SDC's....so now all SDC's know how to run red lights


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## Jagent

Blah, blah blah....Uber, the company that's never designed, manufactured, or produced one product is going to bring self driving cars to market. Meanwhile, Ford, GM, Boeing, etc. all say its years away.


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## RamzFanz

heynow321 said:


> If it's not true uber should sue for libel. At least force a retraction. Oh wait, it's true.


We'll see what they do.



Jagent said:


> Blah, blah blah....Uber, the company that's never designed, manufactured, or produced one product is going to bring self driving cars to market. Meanwhile, Ford, GM, Boeing, etc. all say its years away.


Yes, they do. 2-4 years according to just about every major player. Tesla says this year or next.



Gung-Ho said:


> Remember the genius of these SDC's are they that they learn from other SDC's....so now all SDC's know how to run red lights


That's genuinely funny.


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## Jagent

RamzFanz said:


> We'll see what they do.
> 
> Yes, they do. 2-4 years according to just about every major player. Tesla says this year or next.
> 
> That's genuinely funny.


They say that about cars that can self drive on the freeway. I'm talking about cars with no steering wheel or pedals, which is what Uber needs.


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## RamzFanz

Jagent said:


> They say that about cars that can self drive on the freeway. I'm talking about cars with no steering wheel or pedals.





Jagent said:


> Meanwhile, Ford, GM, Boeing, etc. all say its years away.


*Ford CEO announces fully autonomous vehicles for mobility services by 2021*
Mark Fields, Ford's CEO announced that the company plans to offer fully self-driving vehicles by 2021. The vehicles, which will come without steering wheel and pedals, will be targeted to fleets which provide autonomous mobility services. Fields expects that it will take several years longer until Ford will sell autonomous vehicles to the public.
Source: Reuters, 2016-08-16

*GM: Autononomous cars could be deployed by 2020 or sooner*
General Motor's head of foresight and trends Richard Holman said at a confererence in Detroit that most industry participants now think that self-driving cars will be on the road by 2020 or sooner.
Source: Wall Street Journal, 2016-05-10

*Audi to introduce a self-driving car by 2020*
Scott Keogh, Head of Audi America announced at the CES 2017 that an Audio that really would drive itself would be available by 2020.
(Source: IEEE Spectrum, 2017-01-05)

*NuTonomy to provide self-driving taxi services in Singapore by 2018, expand to 10 cities around the world by 2020*
The company has just started trials of its self-driving taxis in Singapore's 1 North District. It plans to deploy self-driving taxis commercially in Singapore by 2018 and aims to be operational with fleets of self-driving taxis in 10 cities of the world by 2020.
(Source: Yahoo News, 2016-08-29, Digital Trends, 2016-05-24)

*Delphi and MobilEye to provide off-the-shelf self-driving system by 2019*
Both companies have announced that they will bring a fully self-driving (SAE level 4) system on the market for use in a variety of cars in 2019.
Source: TheVerge, 2016-08-23

*Volkswagen expects first self driving cars on the market by 2019*
Johann Jungwirth, Volkswagen's appointed head of Digitalization Strategy, expects the first self-driving cars to appear on the market by 2019. He did not claim that these would be Volkswagen models.
Source: Focus, 2016-04-23

*BMW to launch autonomous iNext in 2021*
At their annual shareholder meeting, BMW CEO Harald Krueger said that BMW will launch a self-driving electric vehicle, the BMW iNext, in 2021.
Source: Elektrek, 2016-05-12

*Baidu's Chief Scientist expects large number of self-driving cars on the road by 2019*
In an interview session, Andrew Ng, the chief scientist of the Chinese search engine Baidu expects that a large number self-driving self-driving cars will be on the road within three years, and that mass-production will be in full swing by 2021.
(Source: Quora, 2016-01-29)


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## Jermin8r89

RamzFanz said:


> *Ford CEO announces fully autonomous vehicles for mobility services by 2021*
> Mark Fields, Ford's CEO announced that the company plans to offer fully self-driving vehicles by 2021. The vehicles, which will come without steering wheel and pedals, will be targeted to fleets which provide autonomous mobility services. Fields expects that it will take several years longer until Ford will sell autonomous vehicles to the public.
> Source: Reuters, 2016-08-16
> 
> *GM: Autononomous cars could be deployed by 2020 or sooner*
> General Motor's head of foresight and trends Richard Holman said at a confererence in Detroit that most industry participants now think that self-driving cars will be on the road by 2020 or sooner.
> Source: Wall Street Journal, 2016-05-10
> 
> *Audi to introduce a self-driving car by 2020*
> Scott Keogh, Head of Audi America announced at the CES 2017 that an Audio that really would drive itself would be available by 2020.
> (Source: IEEE Spectrum, 2017-01-05)
> 
> *NuTonomy to provide self-driving taxi services in Singapore by 2018, expand to 10 cities around the world by 2020*
> The company has just started trials of its self-driving taxis in Singapore's 1 North District. It plans to deploy self-driving taxis commercially in Singapore by 2018 and aims to be operational with fleets of self-driving taxis in 10 cities of the world by 2020.
> (Source: Yahoo News, 2016-08-29, Digital Trends, 2016-05-24)
> 
> *Delphi and MobilEye to provide off-the-shelf self-driving system by 2019*
> Both companies have announced that they will bring a fully self-driving (SAE level 4) system on the market for use in a variety of cars in 2019.
> Source: TheVerge, 2016-08-23
> 
> *Volkswagen expects first self driving cars on the market by 2019*
> Johann Jungwirth, Volkswagen's appointed head of Digitalization Strategy, expects the first self-driving cars to appear on the market by 2019. He did not claim that these would be Volkswagen models.
> Source: Focus, 2016-04-23
> 
> *BMW to launch autonomous iNext in 2021*
> At their annual shareholder meeting, BMW CEO Harald Krueger said that BMW will launch a self-driving electric vehicle, the BMW iNext, in 2021.
> Source: Elektrek, 2016-05-12
> 
> *Baidu's Chief Scientist expects large number of self-driving cars on the road by 2019*
> In an interview session, Andrew Ng, the chief scientist of the Chinese search engine Baidu expects that a large number self-driving self-driving cars will be on the road within three years, and that mass-production will be in full swing by 2021.
> (Source: Quora, 2016-01-29)


You get too consumed with mainstream media. They wanted this in 2016 where it was suppose to be in many cities. I hear them keep delay things


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## Jagent

Ok, Ramz, you drank the koolaid. You do realize that 2018 models are already in production, right? So, you really believe that next year's models won't need a steering wheel or pedals?

Cause that's what Uber needs to replace drivers.

Ford's CEO recently said it's at least 10 years away, possibly more. (And no, I'm not gonna search for a link for you)


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## Jermin8r89

Jagent said:


> Ok, Ramz, you drank the koolaid. You do realize that 2018 models are already in production, right? So, you really believe that next year's models won't need a steering wheel or pedals?
> 
> Cause that's what Uber needs to replace drivers.
> 
> Ford's CEO recently said it's at least 10 years away, possibly more. (And no, I'm not gonna search for a link for you)


He is right on uber and vovlo. Vovlo working with uber for mapping wich also says haveing "no driver is still years away "


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## RamzFanz

Jermin8r89 said:


> You get too consumed with mainstream media. They wanted this in 2016 where it was suppose to be in many cities. I hear them keep delay things


It's not media, it's almost all of the industry experts. It is what it is, take their words for what they're worth.


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## Jermin8r89

RamzFanz said:


> It's not media, it's almost all of the industry experts. It is what it is, take their words for what they're worth.


Even so. Ive been waiting 3 years since samsung said we were suppose to already have phones that can bend like arm bands


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## RamzFanz

Jagent said:


> So, you really believe that next year's models won't need a steering wheel or pedals?


Are we discussing the technology or the regulations? The technology, yes, 1-3 years. Regulations are a different story but from what is coming out of the Trump administration on this issue, it sounds like they are going to clear a path.


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## Jagent

RamzFanz said:


> It's not media, it's almost all of the industry experts. It is what it is, take their words for what they're worth.


Ramz, there's a huge difference in a luxury car that can sort of drive itself down a straight highway in light traffic and a totally self driving car. Then there are what is basically golf carts on a pre programmed route on college campuses... "Experts" refer to them all as self driving cars.


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## RamzFanz

Jermin8r89 said:


> Even so. Ive been waiting 3 years since samsung said we were suppose to already have phones that can bend like arm bands


Yes. I agree. If this were one company with a new toy, I'm not buying in. This isn't the case with SDCs. Major technology and auto companies and many major universities are almost all saying 1-4 years.



Jagent said:


> Ramz, there's a huge difference in a luxury car that can sort of drive itself down a straight highway in light traffic and a totally self driving car.


Dude, they are talking about deploying fleets for TNC between 2019-2021. Singapore is saying 2018. They aren't talking about lane assist. We _already_ have lane assist.

These will _not_ be go anywhere at any speed cars, but they will be self-driving TNCs.


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## Jagent

RamzFanz said:


> Yes. I agree. If this were one company with a new toy, I'm not buying in. This isn't the case with SDCs. Major technology and auto companies and many major universities are almost all saying 1-4 years.
> 
> Dude, they are talking about deploying fleets for TNC between 2019-2021. Singapore is saying 2018. They aren't talking about lane assist. We _already_ have lane assist.


Of course they're talking about it. Talk is cheap. They need money and government help. Lane assist is not what I'm taking about. I'm talking about being able to snooze while your Caddy cruises across the Mojave. We might get that in 2 years. The steering wheel will be with us for awhile. ...lol


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## Jermin8r89

RamzFanz said:


> Yes. I agree. If this were one company with a new toy, I'm not buying in. This isn't the case with SDCs. Major technology and auto companies and many major universities are almost all saying 1-4 years


During an interview with _Drive Mag_, senior engineer automated driving at BMW, Dr. Dirk Wisselmann, said that we are at least 10 years away from when cars are able to handle unforeseen circumstances without any driver involvement.

"Safety systems will help, but not take over 100%. We've got at least ten years ahead of us of assisted driving in such situations, not autonomous driving," Wisselmann said


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## RamzFanz

Jagent said:


> Of course they're talking about it. Talk is cheap. They need money and government help. Lane assist is not what I'm taking about. I'm talking about being able to snooze while your Caddy cruises across the Mojave. We might get that in 2 years. The steering wheel will be with us for awhile. ...lol


Money? This is probably the best funded undertaking in the history of mankind!

All the government needs to do is get out of the way and it appears they are preparing to. The US will not interfere with almost every major auto and tech company in the US. They'll most likely have their committees and hearings, take the payola, and override the states.

The steering wheel probably will be out of all newly manufactured cars by 2025 or sooner.



Jermin8r89 said:


> During an interview with _Drive Mag_, senior engineer automated driving at BMW, Dr. Dirk Wisselmann, said that we are at least 10 years away from when cars are able to handle unforeseen circumstances without any driver involvement.
> 
> "Safety systems will help, but not take over 100%. We've got at least ten years ahead of us of assisted driving in such situations, not autonomous driving," Wisselmann said


Autonomous means 100% anywhere at any time that a human could. Self driving doesn't require autonomy. In regards to TNCs, they will be geofenced and speed restricted at first. Maybe have remote drivers for the occasional roadblock. That's not autonomous but they will be giving our passangers our rides.


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## Jagent

RamzFanz said:


> Money? This is probably the best funded undertaking in the history of mankind!
> 
> All the government needs to do is get out of the way and it appears they are preparing to. The US will not interfere with almost every major auto and tech company in the US. They'll most likely have their committees and hearings, take the payola, and override the states.
> 
> The steering wheel probably will be out of all newly manufactured cars by 2025 or sooner.


Ok buddy. Keep believing the magazine articles. You know, they also said we'd all have flying cars by 1985. They even had designs, patents, money and politicians. Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'll happen. .. I'm just more believing the guys who say at least 10 years.


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## Jermin8r89

RamzFanz said:


> Money? This is probably the best funded undertaking in the history of mankind!
> 
> All the government needs to do is get out of the way and it appears they are preparing to. The US will not interfere with almost every major auto and tech company in the US. They'll most likely have their committees and hearings, take the payola, and override the states.
> 
> The steering wheel probably will be out of all newly manufactured cars by 2025 or sooner.


Ok ok ramz you really are about to make enemies. "The greatest undertakeing in humankind" thats absurd! What about "going to the moon" still thinking on that though but takeing away the greatest freedom? Its like takeing headphone jack out of your phone. God i hate apple as they work hand and hand with these car companies. We just want you to have our protect with no other freedom for 3rd party.

If the tech companies go ahead and run over government then why have 1? The president wont be shit. You can just have companies pay everyone off and have universal welfare. Everyone listen up your new ambassador of the world mark zerkerburg has announcement (as microchip in you brings up hollogram of him like AR2D2)

Yea i dont want that worls where we just 1 big system. I wana explore and be a humanbeing


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## Jagent

RamzFanz said:


> Self driving doesn't require autonomy. In regards to TNCs, they will be geofenced and speed restricted at first. Maybe have remote drivers for the occasional roadblock. That's not autonomous but they will be giving our passangers our rides.


We already have speed restricted, geo fenced transportation. They call them street cars. They're often seen cruising through major cities, holding up traffic. They're usually empty.


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## RamzFanz

Jagent said:


> Ok buddy. Keep believing the magazine articles. You know, they also said we'd all have flying cars by 1985. They even had designs, patents, money and politicians. Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'll happen. .. I'm just more believing the guys who say at least 10 years.


I think you're missing the scale of this effort. They put a man on the moon in less than 10 years in the 1960's and you are betting against this? This is waaaaaaay bigger.



Jermin8r89 said:


> "The greatest undertakeing in humankind" thats absurd! What about "going to the moon" still thinking on that though but takeing away the greatest freedom?


I disagree. Not even close. This effort is way bigger. More money, and more brain power.


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## Jermin8r89

I disagree. Not even close. This effort is way bigger. More money, and more brain power.[/QUOTE]
As a humanbeing exploreing out to space like we have wanted for thousands is not as big as SDC!? Thats sad of you to think like that. You and bill gates would be bestfriends. Idk what to say to you anymore.


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## RamzFanz

I guess the largest steering manufacturer in the world doesn't know what he's talking about:

While Japan's JTEKT Corp currently makes around a quarter of the world's steering systems, its president Tetsuo Agata knows that key changes will need to be made in order to better suit automated driving.

Autonews, the JTEKT boss says redundancy will improve the safety of autonomous cars, whereas steer-by-wire will make them more fun and easier to use.

What redundancy systems are, is the essential fail-safe that kicks in to steer a self-driving car if the main system malfunctions for some reason. _"That is the reason for autonomous driving,"_ said Agata. _"If you are grabbing the steering wheel, you are the redundancy system."_

He also said that steering systems need software and hardware backups. In software, autonomous steering systems require a backup circuit to kick in when the first breaks, whereas on the hardware side, a secondary steering motor is required to help out if the first fails.

_"We have to complete such a steering system with these kinds of redundancies,"_ added Agata.

JTEKT is currently working to develop such a system as early as next year in order to meet *most automakers' goals of deploying fully autonomous vehicles in the 2020 time frame.*

_"We have to finish some kind of units around 2018 or so. Then we can approach customers. We have to be a bit ahead of the OEMs. It's the way for us to survive."_


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## Jagent

RamzFanz said:


> I think you're missing the scale of this effort. They put a man on the moon in less than 10 years in the 1960's and you are betting against this? This is waaaaaaay bigger.
> 
> I disagree. Not even close. This effort is way bigger. More money, and more brain power.


I'm not betting against anything. I said that I agree. ..it's coming. I'm saying 10 more years, at minimum. Dude, you aren't suddenly going to see huge fleets of robot cars appear overnight. You're saying it'll happen next year. I'm saying, show me *one* working example of a SDC that can take me from my home to NYC and find a parking spot.

Why one? Because if they had one, I might believe you. Even then, It'd take them at least two years to tool up to even manufacturer a fleet. But they don't have one. You do realize that the time from design to showroom floor is currently about 5 years, right? That's without rocket science SDC tech onboard.

Not only that, but they haven't even agreed on standards for these cars to communicate with each other or sensors for the roads. Toss in new regulations and you need 5 years for rules. Trump can't even undo Obamacare. You think 50 states represented in Washington are going to agree overnight?

I'm just saying, use your head. Stop believing every hyped up magazine article you read. It's click bait.


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## RamzFanz

Jagent said:


> Dude, you aren't suddenly going to see huge fleets of robot cars appear overnight.


Actually, you probably will. Not at first, but as the wave of manufacturers enter the market in the 2020-2021 area, you're going to start to realise how big this effort really was.



Jagent said:


> You're saying it'll happen next year. I'm saying, show me *one* working example of a SDC that can take me from my home to NYC and find a parking spot.


When did I say next year? That's Elon Musk and some asian nations. You know, the guy who lands rockets on autonomous barges?

One example? Look at Waymo's entire fleet. While we don't know for sure yet, they are probably there already. Seven straight months without a driver needing to take over in _2015._



Jagent said:


> Why one? Because if they had one, I might believe you. Even then, It'd take them at least two years to tool up to even manufacturer a fleet. But they don't have one. You do realize that the time from design to showroom floor is currently about 5 years, right? That's without rocket science SDC tech onboard.


Most of them are building the SDC package onto current models.



Jagent said:


> Not only that, but they haven't even agreed on standards for these cars to communicate with each other or sensors for the roads.


The cars neither need to talk to each other or have sensors in the roads to fully operate. Every one of them is being designed for current conditions.



Jagent said:


> Toss in new regulations and you need 5 years for rules. Trump can't even undo Obamacare. You think 50 states represented in Washington are going to agree overnight?


5 years? How long did Obamacare take to get passed again? Less than 2 years for 3,000 pages of the largest healthcare overhaul in US history?



Jagent said:


> I'm just saying, use your head. Stop believing every hyped up magazine article you read. It's click bait.


You're the one who is ignoring most of the experts, not me. If you disagree with them, that's up to you, but pretending it's "magazine articles" is disingenuous.


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## heynow321

Lolol meanwhile ramz dismisses any other expert that doesn't agree with his simplistic worldview. Case and point that guy from Toyota .

Aren't logical fallacies fun ? Always appealing to authority except when it doesn't fit his case .

Hey ramz we got snow in Seattle today. It rarely snows here so the city and outlying neighborhoods don't have huge fleets of snowplows to clear the roads . 

At one point we had to drive up on the sidewalk to let emergency vehicles pass while pedestrians were walking on the sidewalk . Obviously we had to make eye contact with the pedestrians so they knew what we were going to be doing . Human interaction and communication which of course is essential to driving had to be utilized . But let's ignore that for now .

In your dystopian future, everyone will give up car ownership and essentially just use TNc services which will only use autonomous cars. How is it going to work when you have thousands of people requesting rides but the cars will be incapable of reaching them ? Are we just going to have a second fleet of SUVs parked somewhere for bad weather occurrences ? Seems awfully wasteful . 


What about Ferrari and other sports car manufacturers? Are they just going to go out of business ? What about the millions and millions of people who love classic cars ? Are they just going to be outlawed and barred from driving ? Should we just start crushing all of the older cars now to get a Headstart ?

What about the guy who wants to go off-roading in his truck? What about semi trucks going over passes ? Who is going to put on chains? Are we just going to have centers were tons of people get paid minimum-wage to walk around and put chains on otto trucks? Seems like that would be very costly...


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## Michael - Cleveland

The only thing on my desk that existed in 1980 was the placemat and the cordless phone... 
and even that had only been on the market for a couple of years (1977).

New technology does not come on the market with the flip of a switch.
It's come out in baby-steps.


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## Fubernuber

RamzFanz said:


> *Ford CEO announces fully autonomous vehicles for mobility services by 2021*
> Mark Fields, Ford's CEO announced that the company plans to offer fully self-driving vehicles by 2021. The vehicles, which will come without steering wheel and pedals, will be targeted to fleets which provide autonomous mobility services. Fields expects that it will take several years longer until Ford will sell autonomous vehicles to the public.
> Source: Reuters, 2016-08-16
> 
> *GM: Autononomous cars could be deployed by 2020 or sooner*
> General Motor's head of foresight and trends Richard Holman said at a confererence in Detroit that most industry participants now think that self-driving cars will be on the road by 2020 or sooner.
> Source: Wall Street Journal, 2016-05-10
> 
> *Audi to introduce a self-driving car by 2020*
> Scott Keogh, Head of Audi America announced at the CES 2017 that an Audio that really would drive itself would be available by 2020.
> (Source: IEEE Spectrum, 2017-01-05)
> 
> *NuTonomy to provide self-driving taxi services in Singapore by 2018, expand to 10 cities around the world by 2020*
> The company has just started trials of its self-driving taxis in Singapore's 1 North District. It plans to deploy self-driving taxis commercially in Singapore by 2018 and aims to be operational with fleets of self-driving taxis in 10 cities of the world by 2020.
> (Source: Yahoo News, 2016-08-29, Digital Trends, 2016-05-24)
> 
> *Delphi and MobilEye to provide off-the-shelf self-driving system by 2019*
> Both companies have announced that they will bring a fully self-driving (SAE level 4) system on the market for use in a variety of cars in 2019.
> Source: TheVerge, 2016-08-23
> 
> *Volkswagen expects first self driving cars on the market by 2019*
> Johann Jungwirth, Volkswagen's appointed head of Digitalization Strategy, expects the first self-driving cars to appear on the market by 2019. He did not claim that these would be Volkswagen models.
> Source: Focus, 2016-04-23
> 
> *BMW to launch autonomous iNext in 2021*
> At their annual shareholder meeting, BMW CEO Harald Krueger said that BMW will launch a self-driving electric vehicle, the BMW iNext, in 2021.
> Source: Elektrek, 2016-05-12
> 
> *Baidu's Chief Scientist expects large number of self-driving cars on the road by 2019*
> In an interview session, Andrew Ng, the chief scientist of the Chinese search engine Baidu expects that a large number self-driving self-driving cars will be on the road within three years, and that mass-production will be in full swing by 2021.
> (Source: Quora, 2016-01-29)


Want to buy my toll booth on the brooklyn bridge? You millenials will believe anything. Did you hear the one about flying cars in 10 years? Those flying cars were supposed to be here 10 years ago ane they are still decades if not a millenium away.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> The only thing on my desk that existed in 1980 was the placemat and the cordless phone...
> and even that had only been on the market for a couple of years (1977).
> 
> New technology does not come on the market with the flip of a switch.
> It's come out in baby-steps.


Dude wtf you stole my phone, my mousepad and my mouse? I would say great minds think alike but i believe you were defending hillary in another thread



Michael - Cleveland said:


> The only thing on my desk that existed in 1980 was the placemat and the cordless phone...
> and even that had only been on the market for a couple of years (1977).
> 
> New technology does not come on the market with the flip of a switch.
> It's come out in baby-steps.


Actually never mind. I see that amazon echo in your desk. Might as well get an uber ***** to compliment it


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## elelegido

Jermin8r89 said:


> Even so. Ive been waiting 3 years since samsung said we were suppose to already have phones that can bend like arm bands


I want a flying car. Those are also due in a couple of years, right?


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## Trafficat

Suspending the engineer for running a red light seems like an overly harsh penalty even if the engineer was at fault.


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## john2g1

RamzFanz said:


> Money? This is probably the best funded undertaking in the history of mankind!
> 
> All the government needs to do is get out of the way and it appears they are preparing to. The US will not interfere with almost every major auto and tech company in the US. They'll most likely have their committees and hearings, take the payola, and override the states.
> 
> The steering wheel probably will be out of all newly manufactured cars by 2025 or sooner.


Mmmm at first I was going to stay out of it...

"The steering wheel probably will be out of all newly manufactured cars by 2025 or sooner."

Ok ^^ that's not true because no one would buy a car outside of taxi/limo company. Essentially every won't be chauffeured around. I don't live with that reduce the new car market it would destroy the performance car market.

And yes the Government whether it be federal or state needs to be in the way all the way. If we can't trust GM to make their ignition long enough so the key doesn't fall out and kill people. And if we can't trust VW to not to make compact cars that pollute as much as a tractor trailer how can we trust him to make fully functional automated cars without anyone to verify their claims/safety?



Michael - Cleveland said:


> The only thing on my desk that existed in 1980 was the placemat and the cordless phone...
> and even that had only been on the market for a couple of years (1977).
> 
> New technology does not come on the market with the flip of a switch.
> It's come out in baby-steps.


IDK that beige colored speaker existed in 1080 and looks like it was made in 1977.


----------



## elelegido

john2g1 said:


> And yes the Government whether it be federal or state needs to be in the way all the way.


Yes, but Trump's at the helm. "We're going to build beautiful self driving cars. Fantastic self driving cars. It's going to be beautiful. And Mexico's going to pay for them."

Maybe not the last part, but I can't see that public safety vs corporate profits it going to be a serious debate under Trumponomics.


----------



## anteetr

Jagent said:


> They say that about cars that can self drive on the freeway. I'm talking about cars with no steering wheel or pedals, which is what Uber needs.


As well as a self cleaning feature that can handle vomit and other bodily fluids


----------



## Sydney Uber

elelegido said:


> I want a flying car. Those are also due in a couple of years, right?


Yeah, I hope to have one of those by 2025/26. By that time autonomous technology will have cracked most of the self-flying problems flying robots would have had.

I can't wait, I'm serious.


----------



## UberLaLa

The real question is, _How many humans ran red lights at that same moment?_


----------



## Sydney Uber

heynow321 said:


> Lolol meanwhile ramz dismisses any other expert that doesn't agree with his simplistic worldview. Case and point that guy from Toyota ."
> 
> _*I agree, Toyota are traditionally the most conservative manufacturer out there, they play to the BIGGEST market segment, and are arguably the biggest manufacturer - makes sense not to rock that boat and the success it's brought them. *_
> 
> Aren't logical fallacies fun ? Always appealing to authority except when it doesn't fit his case .
> 
> Hey ramz we got snow in Seattle today. It rarely snows here so the city and outlying neighborhoods don't have huge fleets of snowplows to clear the roads .
> 
> At one point we had to drive up on the sidewalk to let emergency vehicles pass while pedestrians were walking on the sidewalk . Obviously we had to make eye contact with the pedestrians so they knew what we were going to be doing . Human interaction and communication which of course is essential to driving had to be utilized . But let's ignore that for now .
> 
> *Damn good example of the adaptability of humans - there's probably a bunch of white-coated engineers working on scenarios like this right now. *
> 
> In your dystopian future, everyone will give up car ownership and essentially just use TNc services which will only use autonomous cars. How is it going to work when you have thousands of people requesting rides but the cars will be incapable of reaching them ? Are we just going to have a second fleet of SUVs parked somewhere for bad weather occurrences ? Seems awfully wasteful .
> 
> _*In future over-populated, congested cities, individuals simply won't be allowed to drive cars, traffic flows and the accommodation of cars will have to be computer driven *_
> 
> What about Ferrari and other sports car manufacturers? Are they just going to go out of business ? What about the millions and millions of people who love classic cars ? Are they just going to be outlawed and barred from driving ? Should we just start crushing all of the older cars now to get a Headstart ?
> 
> *A person who owns a Ferrari may well be able to afford regular track days. This will be a painful one. These cars are built and BEST suited go the track, with conservatively programmed Robot cars around there ain't gonna be much room for a boy-racer in the mix. Again, simple legislation will simply keep them out of inner city centres. They park 'em And ride.*
> 
> What about the guy who wants to go off-roading in his truck? What about semi trucks going over passes ? Who is going to put on chains? Are we just going to have centers were tons of people get paid minimum-wage to walk around and put chains on otto trucks? Seems like that would be very costly...


That's a good one too, off-roading is just that so apart from military applications there won't be cheap autonomous off-roader.

Yes, there will be many minimum wage folk hovering around regional Tesla Superchargers, greeting arriving riders showing them to a fully recharged, freshly cleaned and provisioned vehicle. Paid by rideshare/ Limo companies/ private owners to keep it all looking good.

It's happening

(Sorry for the messy text set out. My additions in bold/italic )


----------



## JBigotes

elelegido said:


> I want a flying car. Those are also due in a couple of years, right?


Don't you pay attention? Uber is working on flying cars right this minute. Uber will have them flying around next year, if not sooner.


----------



## UberLaLa

Sydney Uber said:


> That's a good one too, off-roading is just that so apart from military applications there won't be cheap autonomous off-roader.
> 
> Yes, there will be many minimum wage folk hovering around regional Tesla Superchargers, greeting arriving riders showing them to a fully recharged, freshly cleaned and provisioned vehicle. Paid by rideshare/ Limo companies/ private owners to keep it all looking good.
> 
> It's happening


It's really much easier than that....workers will simply swap out (no tools needed) a fully charged cell. And two minutes later off goes the autonomous car!


----------



## elelegido

JBigotes said:


> Don't you pay attention? Uber is working on flying cars right this minute. Uber will have them flying around next year, if not sooner.


What they should be working on is teleporters. Then they'd not only get rid of "the other dude in the car", they'd get rid of the car as well. Makes so much sense.


----------



## SCdave

What will be our threshold for Deaths and serious injuries caused by Self-Driving Vehicles?

This will be one of the major factors in the early or prolonged mass introduction of Self-Driving Vehicles.

Mother with baby in stroller gets taken out. School Bus of kids gets driven off the road. Kid on bike gets killed.

This happens daily/weekly with humans at the wheel. But with humans, it was John Smith or Jane Jones who caused the crash. Both individuals that we can assign blame to, as individuals.

With self-driving vehicles, it will be "a Self-Driving Vehicle" malfunctiomed and caused the dealth of little Jimmy, which will reflect on all self-driving vehicles.

So what will be our threshold, as a society, for accepting these Self-Driving Vehicle caused deaths? Who will be responsible? Who will be sued for negligence, who will be given a manslaughter sentence, a prison sentence, or that slap on the wrist?

And just to put it out there. All management, major investors, and board members of corporations developing Self-Driving Vehicles should be required to have all of their family members, including themselves, to use their Self-Driving Vehicles every day for a year or three before they can sell/use the vehicle.

Yup, CEO of Ford, GM, Uber, Lyft, Google, etc... Kiss your wife/husband as s/he goes to work and your kids as they go to school and climb into that vehicle with no steering wheel.

Haven't thought much about this though.


----------



## Sydney Uber

SCdave said:


> What will be our threshold for Deaths and serious injuries caused by Self-Driving Vehicles?
> 
> This will be one of the major factors in the early or prolonged mass introduction of Self-Driving Vehicles.
> 
> Mother with baby in stroller gets taken out. School Bus of kids gets driven off the road. Kid on bike gets killed.
> 
> This happens daily/weekly with humans at the wheel. But with humans, it was John Smith or Jane Jones who caused the crash. Both individuals that we can assign blame to, as individuals.
> 
> With self-driving vehicles, it will be "a Self-Driving Vehicle" malfunctiomed and caused the dealth of little Jimmy, which will reflect on all self-driving vehicles.
> 
> So what will be our threshold, as a society, for accepting these Self-Driving Vehicle caused deaths? Who will be responsible? Who will be sued for negligence, who will be given a manslaughter sentence, a prison sentence, or that slap on the wrist?
> 
> And just to put it out there. All management, major investors, and board members of corporations developing Self-Driving Vehicles should be required to have all of their family members, including themselves, to use their Self-Driving Vehicles every day for a year or three before they can sell/use the vehicle.
> 
> Yup, CEO of Ford, GM, Uber, Lyft, Google, etc... Kiss your wife/husband as s/he goes to work and your kids as they go to school and climb into that vehicle with no steering wheel.
> 
> Haven't thought much about this though.


SCDave has just posed the $64,000 question


----------



## elelegido

SCdave said:


> What will be our threshold for Deaths and serious injuries caused by Self-Driving Vehicles?
> 
> This will be one of the major factors in the early or prolonged mass introduction of Self-Driving Vehicles.
> 
> Mother with baby in stroller gets taken out. School Bus of kids gets driven off the road. Kid on bike gets killed.
> 
> This happens daily/weekly with humans at the wheel. But with humans, it was John Smith or Jane Jones who caused the crash. Both individuals that we can assign blame to, as individuals.
> 
> With self-driving vehicles, it will be "a Self-Driving Vehicle" malfunctiomed and caused the dealth of little Jimmy, which will reflect on all self-driving vehicles.
> 
> So what will be our threshold, as a society, for accepting these Self-Driving Vehicle caused deaths? Who will be responsible? Who will be sued for negligence, who will be given a manslaughter sentence, a prison sentence, or that slap on the wrist?
> 
> And just to put it out there. All management, major investors, and board members of corporations developing Self-Driving Vehicles should be required to have all of their family members, including themselves, to use their Self-Driving Vehicles every day for a year or three before they can sell/use the vehicle.
> 
> Yup, CEO of Ford, GM, Uber, Lyft, Google, etc... Kiss your wife/husband as s/he goes to work and your kids as they go to school and climb into that vehicle with no steering wheel.
> 
> Haven't thought much about this though.


It's hard to put a number on what the acceptable fatalities number will be for SDC-fault accidents. Maybe 1,000 per year? Who knows?


----------



## roadman

so in reality the car probably ran many red lights and cut over into the bike lanes many times. So if you be riding your bike with your wife and kids in San Fran watch out for the Uber car.


----------



## elelegido

roadman said:


> so in reality the car probably ran many red lights and cut over into the bike lanes many times. So if you be riding your bike with your wife and kids in San Fran watch out for the Uber car.


Cyclists are going to love SDC. Right now they know that when they run stop signs and red lights, there's a good chance they'll get mashed by a human driver. When it's my turn to go at a stop sign and there's a cyclist running the side street stop sign, I go anyway. If they want to end up on the hood of my car, that's up to them. But they always stop before they get hit.

SDC will be a different story. Cyclists are going to run the signs and the reds in front of them. Pedestrians are going to learn that it's fine to walk out into the street and that they'll stop. Why wait for the green WALK sign at a crossing? And street drunks are going to have a whale of a time with them.


----------



## BurgerTiime

Of course in Uber fashion they lied about it. I applaud California for putting public safety first.


----------



## Strange Fruit

I'm not surprised they lied about it. I'm surprised the cars rely on mapping software (especdially Uber's, cuz we all know it's brillitant) to know where the red lights are rather than seeing one that is there. It's like when poeple are shown evidence they are wrong, but they insist they are still write cuz "that's what I've always been told". 
The leaks are real, the news is fake.



RamzFanz said:


> *Ford CEO announces fully autonomous vehicles for mobility services by 2021*
> Mark Fields, Ford's CEO announced that the company plans to offer fully self-driving vehicles by 2021. The vehicles, which will come without steering wheel and pedals, will be targeted to fleets which provide autonomous mobility services. Fields expects that it will take several years longer until Ford will sell autonomous vehicles to the public.
> Source: Reuters, 2016-08-16
> 
> *GM: Autononomous cars could be deployed by 2020 or sooner*
> General Motor's head of foresight and trends Richard Holman said at a confererence in Detroit that most industry participants now think that self-driving cars will be on the road by 2020 or sooner.
> Source: Wall Street Journal, 2016-05-10
> 
> *Audi to introduce a self-driving car by 2020*
> Scott Keogh, Head of Audi America announced at the CES 2017 that an Audio that really would drive itself would be available by 2020.
> (Source: IEEE Spectrum, 2017-01-05)
> 
> *NuTonomy to provide self-driving taxi services in Singapore by 2018, expand to 10 cities around the world by 2020*
> The company has just started trials of its self-driving taxis in Singapore's 1 North District. It plans to deploy self-driving taxis commercially in Singapore by 2018 and aims to be operational with fleets of self-driving taxis in 10 cities of the world by 2020.
> (Source: Yahoo News, 2016-08-29, Digital Trends, 2016-05-24)
> 
> *Delphi and MobilEye to provide off-the-shelf self-driving system by 2019*
> Both companies have announced that they will bring a fully self-driving (SAE level 4) system on the market for use in a variety of cars in 2019.
> Source: TheVerge, 2016-08-23
> 
> *Volkswagen expects first self driving cars on the market by 2019*
> Johann Jungwirth, Volkswagen's appointed head of Digitalization Strategy, expects the first self-driving cars to appear on the market by 2019. He did not claim that these would be Volkswagen models.
> Source: Focus, 2016-04-23
> 
> *BMW to launch autonomous iNext in 2021*
> At their annual shareholder meeting, BMW CEO Harald Krueger said that BMW will launch a self-driving electric vehicle, the BMW iNext, in 2021.
> Source: Elektrek, 2016-05-12
> 
> *Baidu's Chief Scientist expects large number of self-driving cars on the road by 2019*
> In an interview session, Andrew Ng, the chief scientist of the Chinese search engine Baidu expects that a large number self-driving self-driving cars will be on the road within three years, and that mass-production will be in full swing by 2021.
> (Source: Quora, 2016-01-29)


We have to draw straws. Who's gonna kill Miles Dyson this time?


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

john2g1 said:


> IDK that beige colored speaker existed in 1080 and looks like it was made in 1977.


hehe... nah - that's just my 'style' (remember, I'm old). 
Cambridge Soundworks wireless stereo satellite speakers with wireless subs definitely did not exist in the 80's.



anteetr said:


> As well as a self cleaning feature that can handle vomit and other bodily fluids


I'd settle for the invention of gum that doesn't stick into upholstery and carpets.


----------



## Jermin8r89

Sydney Uber said:


> Yeah, I hope to have one of those by 2025/26. By that time autonomous technology will have cracked most of the self-flying problems flying robots would have had.
> 
> I can't wait, I'm serious.


I hope more for jetpacks. The greatest freedom ever made. Self flying cars like whats the point? U aint gonna control anything. If u want to stop or go lower hopeing to put hand out and pick berries off a high bush u wont. Why spend time and money doing that when instead just put VR head set on and go on google earth


----------



## Gung-Ho

Jermin8r89 said:


> I hope more for jetpacks. The greatest freedom ever made. Self flying cars like whats the point? U aint gonna control anything. If u want to stop or go lower hopeing to put hand out and pick berries off a high bush u wont. Why spend time and money doing that when instead just put VR head set on and go on google earth


I like the idea of the VR headset and Google Earth vacation. It'll be just like the Holodeck on Star Trek.


----------



## Jermin8r89

Gung-Ho said:


> I like the idea of the VR headset and Google Earth vacation. It'll be just like the Holodeck on Star Trek.


The more i think about it too the more i think its possable. I think car companies have just buried themselves. VR work, hanging out ,driveing,schooling,vactioning all done in VR. I say that will happen around 2030


----------



## RamzFanz

SCdave said:


> What will be our threshold for Deaths and serious injuries caused by Self-Driving Vehicles?
> 
> This will be one of the major factors in the early or prolonged mass introduction of Self-Driving Vehicles.
> 
> Mother with baby in stroller gets taken out. School Bus of kids gets driven off the road. Kid on bike gets killed.
> 
> This happens daily/weekly with humans at the wheel. But with humans, it was John Smith or Jane Jones who caused the crash. Both individuals that we can assign blame to, as individuals.
> 
> With self-driving vehicles, it will be "a Self-Driving Vehicle" malfunctiomed and caused the dealth of little Jimmy, which will reflect on all self-driving vehicles.
> 
> So what will be our threshold, as a society, for accepting these Self-Driving Vehicle caused deaths? Who will be responsible? Who will be sued for negligence, who will be given a manslaughter sentence, a prison sentence, or that slap on the wrist?
> 
> And just to put it out there. All management, major investors, and board members of corporations developing Self-Driving Vehicles should be required to have all of their family members, including themselves, to use their Self-Driving Vehicles every day for a year or three before they can sell/use the vehicle.
> 
> Yup, CEO of Ford, GM, Uber, Lyft, Google, etc... Kiss your wife/husband as s/he goes to work and your kids as they go to school and climb into that vehicle with no steering wheel.
> 
> Haven't thought much about this though.


The tolerance for accidents will be low for sure and probably well investigated.

I don't see any person being held responsible unless it's provable negligence or malice. The insurance companies will probably handle accidents like they do now and the civil/criminal courts if it's negligence or malice.


----------



## Wedgey

So who is going to foot the bill for all these driver-less cars. Obviously not the drivers.


----------



## RamzFanz

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> Uhh.. it's volvo providing the cars, uber providing the self driving...


Volvo has their own independent SDC effort.



Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> If volvo puts out self driving cars that work they can cut uber out of the equation..


They want Uber's market, not Uber's technology, or at least, not only.



Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> Uber's self driving cars are a fraud...


They appear to be at the back of the pack. If they are using stolen technology, their project is cooked. That won't stop them from getting them elsewhere. Waymo and others are going to lease the technology, not build cars.



Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> Uber does not and will not have any self driving cars that they can use.


Yes, they will. Even if Volvo backed out, they could simply lease them if they wished.



Fubernuber said:


> Want to buy my toll booth on the brooklyn bridge? You millenials will believe anything. Did you hear the one about flying cars in 10 years? Those flying cars were supposed to be here 10 years ago ane they are still decades if not a millenium away.


I'm 52 and spent 20 years in technology and automation. Trust me, SDCs are coming and coming sooner than many thought just a few years ago. This is the end game.

I personally don't know anyone who thought flying cars were feasible for personal use with past technology. Today, however, we are almost there. The missing piece is battery capacity but that's improving every year. A millennium away? Airbus is testing its prototype next year. EHang is saying they will go live in July. This July.








elelegido said:


> I want a flying car. Those are also due in a couple of years, right?


Supposedly this July. See above.



john2g1 said:


> Mmmm at first I was going to stay out of it...
> 
> "The steering wheel probably will be out of all newly manufactured cars by 2025 or sooner."
> 
> Ok ^^ that's not true because no one would buy a car outside of taxi/limo company. Essentially every won't be chauffeured around. I don't live with that reduce the new car market it would destroy the performance car market.
> 
> And yes the Government whether it be federal or state needs to be in the way all the way. If we can't trust GM to make their ignition long enough so the key doesn't fall out and kill people. And if we can't trust VW to not to make compact cars that pollute as much as a tractor trailer how can we trust him to make fully functional automated cars without anyone to verify their claims/safety?


I'm not sure what you mean about the steering wheels. SDCs will come out as electric vehicles with no human controls. Personal SDCs will probably have human controls at first but will lose them eventually.

I'm not saying no human driven cars will be made anymore, but they won't be coming from major manufacturers as a normal everyday model after 2025, or so it's been predicted by experts.



UberLaLa said:


> It's really much easier than that....workers will simply swap out (no tools needed) a fully charged cell. And two minutes later off goes the autonomous car!


Same with the interior, if they're swart.


----------



## elelegido

RamzFanz said:


> Supposedly this July. See above.


Great! Will I have to go down to the DMV and add Flying Car to the classes on my license? I hope not; I really don't like going to the DMV.


----------



## Gung-Ho

Jermin8r89 said:


> The more i think about it too the more i think its possable. I think car companies have just buried themselves. VR work, hanging out ,driveing,schooling,vactioning all done in VR. I say that will happen around 2030


That is exactly what will happen. Business conferences meeting in a virtual boardroom etc...and when they can perfect interaction with virtual objects to give people the sense they are actually touching then you'll have the entire world in your living room.


----------



## Jermin8r89

Gung-Ho said:


> That is exactly what will happen. Business conferences meeting in a virtual boardroom etc...and when they can perfect interaction with virtual objects to give people the sense they are actually touching then you'll have the entire world in your living room.


----------



## waitin4selfdrvcars

get in a self-driving car / get all the blame


----------



## anteetr

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I'd settle for the invention of gum that doesn't stick into upholstery and carpets.


If I caught someone sticking gum to my car I'd take what they owe me out of their hide


----------



## RamzFanz

elelegido said:


> Great! Will I have to go down to the DMV and add Flying Car to the classes on my license? I hope not; I really don't like going to the DMV.


Fortunately, no. They are self flying so we won't have to duck and dive every time you fly by.



anteetr said:


> If I caught someone sticking gum to my car I'd take what they owe me out of their hide


I had a college group intentionally smash gum into my carpet. I saw them do it. I verbally tore the account holder a new a-hole, telling him he needed to find better friends rather than punks, right in front of his friends and about 50 people in line to go into the bar.

5 minutes later I had the gum out, they sucked at gum smashing as much as they sucked at life, and got $40 for my troubles. 8/10, would do again.


----------



## SCdave

RamzFanz said:


> The tolerance for accidents will be low for sure and probably well investigated.
> 
> I don't see any person being held responsible unless it's provable negligence or malice. The insurance companies will probably handle accidents like they do now and the civil/criminal courts if it's negligence or malice.


We don't really know do we?

All we do know is that accidents will happen. Kids will get killed. Its a given.

And as a society we will decide what defines an accident, what is criminal negligence, and even what might be malice. The baseline will be the same as it is today, then laws will be challenged, there will be news stories for and against, and TV shows and movies. And our threshold will change.

And if we had a very high threshold as a society, right now/today, for a very high number of accidents and deaths, there would be Self Driving Cars and Autonomous Vehicles in large numbers this year and more next year.

The technology is far enough developed already. Just how many accidents and deaths are acceptable?


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

elelegido said:


> What they should be working on is teleporters. Then they'd not only get rid of "the other dude in the car", they'd get rid of the car as well. Makes so much sense.


And what makes you think 'they' (whoever they are) have not been working on teleporting?


----------



## Maven

SDC runs red lights - doesn't matter.
SDC is hacked - doesn't matter.
SDC goes berserk - doesn't matter.
SDC kills people - doesn't matter.

Eventually, we'll be told that statistics prove SDCs are safer than people driving. That will be the signal.
25% of the public is already ready to get into an SDC. Another 50% "may" do it.
There'll be a $billion advertising campaign to sway the rest.
It's only a matter of time and money.


----------



## RamzFanz

SCdave said:


> We don't really know do we?
> 
> All we do know is that accidents will happen. Kids will get killed. Its a given.
> 
> And as a society we will decide what defines an accident, what is criminal negligence, and even what might be malice. The baseline will be the same as it is today, then laws will be challenged, there will be news stories for and against, and TV shows and movies. And are threshold will change.
> 
> And if we had a very high threshold as a society, right now/today, for a very high number of accidents and deaths, there would be Self Driving Cars and Autonomous Vehicles in large numbers this year and more next year.
> 
> The technology is far enough developed already. Just how many accidents and deaths are acceptable?


It doesn't work until they say it works and their threshold, as I perceive it, is way less incidents.

As you say, we don't know.

However, negligence and malice are well outlined behaviors and very hard to prove.


----------



## elelegido

Michael - Cleveland said:


> And what makes you think 'they' (whoever they are) have not been working on teleporting?


Because if/when Uber builds a teleporter, it will obviously not work properly. But, so far there have been no reports of Uber geeks suddenly disappearing, never to be seen again.



RamzFanz said:


> Supposedly this July. See above.


Not very _practical_, though, are they...

Maximum range:15 miles
Maximum flight time: 25 minutes
Maximum Payload: 220 lbs

And those are claimed figures, which we all know are always optimistic the same as claimed cellphone battery life, car mpg etc. So figure on 10 mile range in real world conditions and 15-20 minutes' flight.

So this is a great little novelty item, sure. But as a practical transportation device, it's still a case of pie in the sky, not car in the sky.


----------



## Jermin8r89

elelegido said:


> Because if/when Uber builds a teleporter, it will obviously not work properly. But, so far there have been no reports of Uber geeks suddenly disappearing, never to be seen again.
> 
> Not very _practical_, though, are they...
> 
> Maximum range:15 miles
> Maximum flight time: 25 minutes
> Maximum Payload: 220 lbs
> 
> And those are claimed figures, which we all know are always optimistic the same as claimed cellphone battery life, car mpg etc. So figure on 10 mile range in real world conditions and 15-20 minutes' flight.
> 
> So this is a great little novelty item, sure. But as a practical transportation device, it's still a case of pie in the sky, not car in the sky.


I weigh 235 so no flying for me


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

elelegido said:


> Because if/when Uber builds a teleporter, it will obviously not work properly. But, so far there have been no reports of Uber geeks suddenly disappearing, never to be seen again.


What, are you kidding? They're disappearing in rapid succession and reappearing in blog posts everywhere!


----------



## SCdave

RamzFanz said:


> It doesn't work until they say it works and their threshold, as I perceive it, is way less incidents.
> 
> As you say, we don't know.
> 
> However, negligence and malice are well outlined behaviors and very hard to prove.


Chaos...well, just happens. The transition period (1,5,10,15 years) for SDCs will have its share.

There will be a few SDC companies and/or parts suppliers with quarterly performance pressures or personal problems and...

Ask Volkswagen management re Billion$ TDI Diesel Engine Software F-up.

Or teens in the introduction of the SDC era will play a stupid game of chicken - man vs machine.

Or a Takata AirBag deathly product failure equivalent critical SDC part failure will occur.

I like tech. I believe SDCs will be on the roads as consumer products/services. But other than in a controlled study, specific closed/SDC Optimized Roads/cities/campuses, it will be a very slow transition.

And again, I want to see a CEO putting his/her baby in a car seat in their prototype, kissing baby, and saying "Mommy /Daddy loves you and will never put you in harms way. See you when I get home." Ya, want to see this happen for a few years first.


----------



## Jermin8r89

SCdave said:


> Chaos...well, just happens. The transition period (1,5,10,15 years) for SDCs will have its share.
> 
> There will be a few SDC companies and/or parts suppliers with quarterly performance pressures or personal problems and...
> 
> Ask Volkswagen management re Billion$ TDI Diesel Engine Software F-up.
> 
> Or teens in the introduction of the SDC era will play a stupid game of chicken - man vs machine.
> 
> Or a Takata AirBag deathly product failure equivalent critical SDC part failure will occur.
> 
> I like tech. I believe SDCs will be on the roads as consumer products/services. But other than in a controlled study, specific closed/SDC Optimized Roads/cities/campuses, it will be a very slow transition.
> 
> And again, I want to see a CEO putting his/her baby in a car seat in their prototype, kissing baby, and saying "Mommy /Daddy loves you and will never put you in harms way. See you when I get home." Ya, want to see this happen for a few years first.


I want to see these vehicals go threw the kitchen sink! Threw them in every situation the road can give you.

Roll them over spike strips see how it reacts to flats. Set car on fire. Short fuses. Loss of comminication. Debris/people ect in middle of road. Floods.hurricans.tornadoe.ice.snow.
What if it gets hacked? Back up system? Where human can take control.

Will this be just like public transportation? If so and say my father had a heartattack would i beable to get help right away? First time my dad had heart attack i just rushed him to hospital and put my hazzards on. I pretty much saved him


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## Maven

Back to a *far more serious *topic, Transporters!  I'm scared to death of them, far worse than SDCs. Transporters can be so easily weaponized.

Transport a bomb to your ex-girlfriends (or ex-boyfriends) house or the nearest army base. 

Transport your friendly neighborhood Uber CEO, Travis off a cliff. 
The nefarious possibilities are unlimited!!! (Wait! Not enough exclamation points...) !!!!!!!!!!


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## Jermin8r89

Maven said:


> Back to a *far more serious *topic, Transporters!  I'm scared to death of them, far worse than SDCs. Transporters can be so easily weaponized.
> 
> Transport a bomb to your ex-girlfriends (or ex-boyfriends) house or the nearest army base.
> 
> Transport your friendly neighborhood Uber CEO, Travis off a cliff.
> The nefarious possibilities are unlimited!!! (Wait! Not enough exclamation points...) !!!!!!!!!!


How about make teleportation gene-edited? I can be just like goku!


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## Tim Little

We should find ways of increasing our earnings before the self-driving cars come. 
Sometimes I think that these "self driving" cars are a distraction from the driver-dependent present. They try to render us invisible to marginalize our legitimate concerns.


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## Jermin8r89

Tim Little said:


> We should find ways of increasing our earnings before the self-driving cars come.
> Sometimes I think that these "self driving" cars are a distraction from the driver-dependent present. They try to render us invisible to marginalize our legitimate concerns.


The problem is companies dont wana pay for "labor costs" so when all these entry lv jobs call for $15 an hour like walmart there a big surge of keosks.

They dont care about how many americans want to drive. They are at a loss of revenue cuz noone has money so theese expenseive cars r jacked up with all sorts of loans and leases. Then theres people like me who dosent get new cars and would buy out straight a truck 10 years old for a few thousand and do some extra work on it.

Everyone keeps upgradeing but noone can afford it so by makeing a giant public transportation system they control the whole system like delievery systems and taxis. They will be governmently funded.

Kroney captialsm at its best


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## Tim Little

We have control. Though appreciate your words. And you inspire me to work on my truck !


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## RamzFanz

elelegido said:


> Not very _practical_, though, are they...
> 
> Maximum range:15 miles
> Maximum flight time: 25 minutes
> Maximum Payload: 220 lbs
> 
> And those are claimed figures, which we all know are always optimistic the same as claimed cellphone battery life, car mpg etc. So figure on 10 mile range in real world conditions and 15-20 minutes' flight.
> 
> So this is a great little novelty item, sure. But as a practical transportation device, it's still a case of pie in the sky, not car in the sky.


We have no reason to think the numbers they are advertising are inaccurate. They could just as likely be conservative. But yes, so true, they are very limited right now by energy storage.

There's a point of diminishing returns with battery size. However, if the trend of battery improvement continues, it won't be long until they will be far more practical. With the massive worldwide effort toward more efficient batteries for electric SDC TNCs, I wouldn't bet against major advancements in the near future.



SCdave said:


> Chaos...well, just happens. The transition period (1,5,10,15 years) for SDCs will have its share.
> 
> There will be a few SDC companies and/or parts suppliers with quarterly performance pressures or personal problems and...
> 
> Ask Volkswagen management re Billion$ TDI Diesel Engine Software F-up.
> 
> Or teens in the introduction of the SDC era will play a stupid game of chicken - man vs machine.
> 
> Or a Takata AirBag deathly product failure equivalent critical SDC part failure will occur.
> 
> I like tech. I believe SDCs will be on the roads as consumer products/services. But other than in a controlled study, specific closed/SDC Optimized Roads/cities/campuses, it will be a very slow transition.
> 
> And again, I want to see a CEO putting his/her baby in a car seat in their prototype, kissing baby, and saying "Mommy /Daddy loves you and will never put you in harms way. See you when I get home." Ya, want to see this happen for a few years first.


Sure, all of these things _could_ happen but there's no reason to assume they will. The answer is simple, courts and insurance, just as with current incidents.

SDCs don't currently need closed or SDC optimized roads, so I can't agree with you on that at all. They're already on campuses around the world, so that benchmark was achieved years ago. It's how the WePod was tested before it went live last May.

As far as CEO's babies, no one is going to be shipping loan babies around in SDCs, so I wouldn't hold your breath.


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## elelegido

RamzFanz said:


> if the trend of battery improvement continues, it won't be long until they will be far more practical.


Huh? What trend?  The development of battery capacity has been and still is glacially slow.

The first practical rechargeable battery was the lead acid battery, invented in 1859. The latest practical development in batteries is the Li-Ion battery used in Teslas, phones, drones etc, which came out in the 1990s. There have been no significant new commercially viable battery developments in over 25 years.

Li-Ion batteries have an energy density of 250 Wh (watt hours) per kilogram. It took 130 years to go from 0 in 1859 to 250Wh in 1991. Gasoline, by comparison, has an energy density of 13,000 Wh/kg. So, at the historical pace of development, it will take 6,630 years before batteries can, pound for pound, match gasoline as a means of carrying around energy for use in a vehicle. Electric motors are 80% efficient vs the 30% efficiency of a gasoline engine, but still - at the current development rate we're still talking thousands of years.

I'm not sure why you think that science fiction is happening now/next month/next year etc. Simple reality doesn't support your projections.


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## elelegido

MrLinus said:


> That's telling him Ellie!!


Well Linnie, facts are facts.


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## uberdriverfornow

Trafficat said:


> Suspending the engineer for running a red light seems like an overly harsh penalty even if the engineer was at fault.


The car was at fault not the engineer or the driver. What's next, Uber blaming riders when their cars blow through red lights ? lol yeah ok Uber.

What Uber and the other shills on here don't understand is that nobody is going to be getting in any car that arrives with no driver.

When are any of these reporters going to get off their asses and do some real reporting where they ask people on the street if they plan on getting in one of these death traps when they show up and nobody is driving ?


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## RamzFanz

elelegido said:


> Huh? What trend?  The development of battery capacity has been and still is glacially slow.
> 
> The first practical rechargeable battery was the lead acid battery, invented in 1859. The latest practical development in batteries is the Li-Ion battery used in Teslas, phones, drones etc, which came out in the 1990s. There have been no significant new commercially viable battery developments in over 25 years.
> 
> Li-Ion batteries have an energy density of 250 Wh (watt hours) per kilogram. It took 130 years to go from 0 in 1859 to 250Wh in 1991. Gasoline, by comparison, has an energy density of 13,000 Wh/kg. So, at the historical pace of development, it will take 6,630 years before batteries can, pound for pound, match gasoline as a means of carrying around energy for use in a vehicle. Electric motors are 80% efficient vs the 30% efficiency of a gasoline engine, but still - at the current development rate we're still talking thousands of years.
> 
> I'm not sure why you think that science fiction is happening now/next month/next year etc. Simple reality doesn't support your projections.


Comeon dude. No way you know this without also knowing some of the new discoveries in batteries. Ever hear of Lithium-Air? Nanowires? Solid state lithium-ion? Fuel cell? Graphene? Li-S? Laser-made microsupercapacitors?

My reference to improvements was more in regards to new discoveries.

The money and brains being poured into batteries is staggering.


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## elelegido

RamzFanz said:


> Comeon dude. No way you know this without also knowing some of the new discoveries in batteries. Ever hear of Lithium-Air? Nanowires? Solid state lithium-ion? Fuel cell? Graphene? Li-S? Laser-made microsupercapacitors?
> 
> My reference to improvements was more in regards to new discoveries.
> 
> The money and brains being poured into batteries is staggering.


Interesting developments, but they've still got a lot of obstacles to overcome in order to be practical/marketable. With the exception of fuel cells, but they're not batteries.


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## RamzFanz

elelegido said:


> Interesting developments, but they've still got a lot of obstacles to overcome in order to be practical/marketable.


Some do, some don't.



elelegido said:


> With the exception of fuel cells, but they're not batteries.


Brevity. They are paired with batteries to keep them charged longer.


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## elelegido

RamzFanz said:


> Some do, some don't.


So which new battery developments are practical/marketable now? And if they are ready now, why are the companies who developed them just sitting on them instead of selling them?


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## RamzFanz

elelegido said:


> So which new battery developments are practical/marketable now? And if they are ready now, why are the companies who developed them just sitting on them instead of selling them?


I didn't say they were ready, I said some don't have major obstacles.


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## elelegido

RamzFanz said:


> I didn't say they were ready, I said some don't have major obstacles.


Which ones?


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## RamzFanz

elelegido said:


> Which ones?


Some.

Really? OK, let's start with nanowires.


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## elelegido

RamzFanz said:


> Some.


 As usual, nothing to back up what you're claiming.

Anyway, the point is that right now, batteries have a capacity that's 2% of an equivalent mass of gasoline after nearly a century and a half of development. That's two percent. The notion that the development achievement is suddenly going to double to 4% or triple to 6% is unlikely. And even if it did, it'd still be just 4% or 6%. Still far from a viable alternative for air transportation.


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## SCdave

RamzFanz said:


> Some do, some don't.
> 
> Brevity. They are paired with batteries to keep them charged longer.


If " paired" with a battery, then it is a range extender, like a Chevy Volt; a small gas powered generator being the current preferred and commercially viable method.

A Supercapacitor is the most elegant replacement for a battery. I'm a fan. Unfortunately, like all other energy storage devices for electric vehicles, not close to having a commercially viable product.


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## elelegido

MrLinus said:


> So who's winning this battle between Ellie and the famz?


In reality, MrAnus, we have to wait and see what Ramzfanz comes back with next.


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## Maven

MrLinus said:


> So who's winning this battle between Ellie and the famz?





elelegido said:


> In reality, MrAnus, we have to wait and see what Ramzfanz comes back with next.


Too bad we cannot resolve this in traditional ways, say 3 rounds in a boxing ring, arm wrestling, a drinking contest, or even the "ultimate" ... a "thumb war". Then it would be over and we could all move on.

It seems that some people are more interested in forum fights than the topics discussed. They encourage a continuation of the forum fight even when the principals do not want to engage or escalate. Personally, I do not find this or any forum fight interesting. The principals may choose to invite any other interested observers into the offline conversation, hereafter known as "Fight Club". I will say no more, so to honor the first rule of "Fight Club".
http://users.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/conflict.html


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## elelegido

Maven said:


> Too bad we cannot resolve this in traditional ways, say 3 rounds in a boxing ring, arm wrestling, a drinking contest, or a "thumb war". Then it would be over and we could all move on.
> 
> It seems that some people are more interested in forum fights than the topics discussed. They encourage a continuation of the forum fight even when the principals do not want to engage or escalate. Personally, I do not find this or any forum fight interesting. The principals may choose to invite any other interested observers into the offline conversation, hereafter known as "Fight Club". I will say no more, so to honor the first rule of "Fight Club".
> http://users.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/conflict.html


Well, I am most disappointed that the discussion Ramzfanz and I were having did not meet your requirements.

In any case, he and I were having a discussion, not a "fight", as you put it. He is able to have a worthwhile discussion, with minimal point-scoring attempts. The way it generally works is that he makes a claim and I then correct him. This is different from the typical forum battles which end up as arguments over boring minutiae - Ramzfanz does raise interesting albeit flawed points about the profitability of Uber, the subsidisation of rides, and flying cars, among other things.

There will always be the "observers" you mention; the hangers-on, the point scorers such as MrAnus, who have nothing to contribute to a discussion and just, as their classification suggests, like to just buzz around the periphery trying to score points off people. No big deal; trolls gotta do what trolls gotta do.

Anyway, it's just a forum. Some things you'll be interested in; some things you won't. No need really to enter a conversation you're not interested in just to say you're not interested in it.


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## RamzFanz

elelegido said:


> As usual, nothing to back up what you're claiming.
> 
> Anyway, the point is that right now, batteries have a capacity that's 2% of an equivalent mass of gasoline after nearly a century and a half of development. That's two percent. The notion that the development achievement is suddenly going to double to 4% or triple to 6% is unlikely. And even if it did, it'd still be just 4% or 6%. Still far from a viable alternative for air transportation.


Nanowires

*Revolutionary nanowire battery tech can be charged over 200,000 times*
A newly discovered method of treating nanowires results in battery technology that can be recharged hundreds of thousands of times.

Li-S

Companies such as Sion Power have partnered with Airbus Defence and Space to test their lithium sulfur battery technology. Airbus Defense and Space successfully launched their prototype High Altitude Pseudo-Satellite (HAPS) aircraft powered by solar energy during the day and by lithium sulfur batteries at night in real life conditions during an 11-day flight. The batteries used in the test flight utilized Sion Power's Li-S cells that provide 350 Wh/kg.[36] Sion claims to be in the process of volume manufacturing with availability by end of 2017.[37]


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## ChortlingCrison

RamzFanz said:


> Nanowires
> 
> *Revolutionary nanowire battery tech can be charged over 200,000 times*
> A newly discovered method of treating nanowires results in battery technology that can be recharged hundreds of thousands of times.
> 
> Li-S
> 
> Companies such as Sion Power have partnered with Airbus Defence and Space to test their lithium sulfur battery technology. Airbus Defense and Space successfully launched their prototype High Altitude Pseudo-Satellite (HAPS) aircraft powered by solar energy during the day and by lithium sulfur batteries at night in real life conditions during an 11-day flight. The batteries used in the test flight utilized Sion Power's Li-S cells that provide 350 Wh/kg.[36] Sion claims to be in the process of volume manufacturing with availability by end of 2017.[37]


The ramzfanz has struck again!!!


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## elelegido

RamzFanz said:


> Nanowires
> 
> *Revolutionary nanowire battery tech can be charged over 200,000 times*
> A newly discovered method of treating nanowires results in battery technology that can be recharged hundreds of thousands of times.


If that's from the Cnet article, it has little credibility. The author also claimed in that article that existing Li-ion cells have battery cycle lives of up to 7,000 cycles. That would be one charge/discharge every day for 19 years - obviously nonsense, as anyone who's ever owned a cellphone or digital camera etc for any length of time can attest to. Even if the other claim of 200,000 cycles was true, there's still the question of cost effectiveness. Plus the fact that this is not claimed to boost storage capacity. It would just mean that the battery will need to be replaced less frequenty.


> Li-S
> 
> Companies such as Sion Power have partnered with Airbus Defence and Space to test their lithium sulfur battery technology. Airbus Defense and Space successfully launched their prototype High Altitude Pseudo-Satellite (HAPS) aircraft powered by solar energy during the day and by lithium sulfur batteries at night in real life conditions during an 11-day flight. The batteries used in the test flight utilized Sion Power's Li-S cells that provide 350 Wh/kg.[36] Sion claims to be in the process of volume manufacturing with availability by end of 2017.[37]


Baby steps are indeed being made; in this case from 250 Wh/kg to 350. but it took 25 years of development for that incremental step. Which demonstrates my point - at an improvement rate of 100 Wh/kg per 25 years, or 4 Wh/kg per year, it would take 3,200 more years of development for stored electricity to be competitive with gasoline or jet fuel.


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## ChortlingCrison

You two are still at it again eh?


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## CoolAnt

This quote pretty much sums up Uber's arrogant attitude:



Jo3030 said:


> Other companies have complied, however, Uber insisted that it did not need a permit, since the vehicles were not "fully" autonomous. Uber refused to apply for a permit, but was "open to having the conversation". It turns out that the California DMV was not "open"


Good on the DMV for standing up to Uber.


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## elelegido

CoolAnt said:


> This quote pretty much sums up Uber's arrogant attitude:
> 
> Good on the DMV for standing up to Uber.


I stopped at a light next to one of their almost self driving Fusions yesterday; they were quick to fire them back up.

I did not give the one-fingered salute as I had a pax in the car and that would have looked odd, but the thought was there.


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## uber strike

Uber wants the consumer to be a guinea pig...


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