# Solving Uber's sub prime lending practices



## Shea F. Kenny (Jan 3, 2015)

I tried to post this on another Uber board, but it only showed up in my posting history, and not the topic area. So, let's see what happens here.

Begin post:

Well, here we go. Uber's being investigated for it's subprime loans to drivers, as well as other auto loan companies.

But, this is actually good news for drivers like me, who got into the program.

You see, the real problem is these loans are being bundled into financial securities packages, and buyers of those packages, are unaware of this, just like the home mortgages debacle.

I have an obligation to pay about 200.00 a week, through Uber to make the lease payment. Now, Uber advertised a driver could make at least 20.00 per hour, and I was willing to work 8-10 hours a day, 7 days a week. Thus, pay my lease in about one day.

Well, my payout has gone from nearly 1000, down to this week's 611.00, in four short months. And I work over 50 hours a week.

Less gas and carwashes, at least 200.00. Maintenance? An oil change would be 80.00. Brakes? not yet. Transmission, under warranty. You get the idea.

So, let's just say I walked off with 400.00, last week and put in 56 hours.

That's 7.00 an hour.

Now, under the lease agreement, I have to pay to maintain the car, according to manufacturer recommendations.

Or, they take the car away and I'm out of a job, and they are out of their weekly payments, and the subprime financing, will default and leave the holders, with nothing.

Well, I'm thinking regulators are going to see that drivers like us, can PROVE we bargained in very good faith, make SUBSTANTIAL efforts to meet our obligations, and it's UBER'S FAULT THAT WE CAN'T!!!!

In short, shall rule that subprime loan drivers, should have been guaranteed 25-30 dollars an hour, simply for taking such a long term financial risk. Not to mention providing the customer with a guaranteed high quality and maintained vehicle. Brand new car, no breakdowns.

So, don't sweat it subprime drivers. Regulators and courts are of course only acting to protect consumers of financial bundles, but in so doing, will have to force Uber to guarantee that we make money.

Uhm, God save us all............LOL


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## Roogy (Nov 4, 2014)

Well reasoned. But it can take a long time to win that battle in the courts. By then the lease will be paid off, or your car repossessed.


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## Uber Driver 007 (Jun 17, 2014)

I'm sorry your in this situation but to be honest leasing/buying a car from Uber is just like taking a loan from a loan shark. You're only seeing the logic now? Why didn't the drivers do these type of calculations before. Seriously, any sane person can see $300 WEEKLY for 55 months is too much for a $22,000 Camry...and those who over-looked the finer details due to poor credit...I mean you have to wonder when the world is turning you down for auto loans and here comes Uber promising guaranteed approval. Loan Shark! Just another group looking for a government bail-out.


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## Shea F. Kenny (Jan 3, 2015)

Uber Driver 007 said:


> I'm sorry your in this situation but to be honest leasing/buying a car from Uber is just like taking a loan from a loan shark. You're only seeing the logic now? Why didn't the drivers do these type of calculations before. Seriously, any sane person can see $300 WEEKLY for 55 months is too much for a $22,000 Camry...and those who over-looked the finer details due to poor credit...I mean you have to wonder when the world is turning you down for auto loans and here comes Uber promising guaranteed approval. Loan Shark! Just another group looking for a government bail-out.


Well, before I joined Uber, I watched the traffic on the client app for two solid weeks and at all times of day and night. And decided to take the risk. I didn't have unreasonable expectations, and they were well met,the first few weeks. And I doubt I'm the only one in this situation, in all of America.

And what logic are you speaking of? What would qualify Uber for a bailout? The one's getting the bailout, if any, would be the holders of the subprime financing agreements, not Uber or Santander, because they got their money.

All of which shows you don't know what you're talking about. I went in after a fair amount of research, the car salesman had a stack of sales invoices, etc..

But my point was more of what could very well happen with drivers like me, who are now looking at the shaft we are about to be stuck with, and how the courts and regulators could and should take our side and not let this happen.

Duh............


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## ElectroFuzz (Jun 10, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> I tried to post this on another Uber board, but it only showed up in my posting history, and not the topic area. So, let's see what happens here.
> 
> Begin post:
> 
> ...


To summarize your post:
Regulators, courts and god..... SAVE ME!

You took a very malicious bait, I hope it will work out for you.


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## Shea F. Kenny (Jan 3, 2015)

Roogy said:


> Well reasoned. But it can take a long time to win that battle in the courts. By then the lease will be paid off, or your car repossessed.


A judge could order a stay on any repossessions. A judge could order that the subprime auto financing, be refunded to the people that bought securities bundles. Then, Uber, Santander and whatever other auto financing, would be left stuck with their own paper, and have to find solutions, and very quickly. Uber could easily. It could either guarantee us a an hourly rate, and require a minimum 8 hour shift.

I mean, my lease payments will equate to paying almost double the purchase price of the car. But then so what? That's about 90 bucks a week, or 12 bucks a day. One, maybe two trips a day.

I didn't care how much I paid for the car, as long as in two or three days out of seven, it's expenses were covered. I'm willing to work a full shift every day. I'm not asking for much, obviously. I also never expected to make a lot of money. The REAL numbers, just couldn't possibly work out, for anyone. Whether they own the car or not. The difference between me and them is, like I said. About two or three trips a day. Big whoop. But then, I have warranties................LOL.

I'm going to contact an attorney I've used successfully in the past and see if he's interested in gearing up a class action suit, once all of this starts to fall apart. And it looks like it's going to.

I mean you're going to bundle subprime financing into AAA bonds packages, and not guarantee that the drivers CAN make money? I mean, Uber takes the money, before it pays me. So, there will be no repossessions.

Unless, I park it on their doorstep because I can't pay the insurance, rent in a low income apartment, buy food and wash my clothes...............

LOL


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## cybertec69 (Jul 23, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> I tried to post this on another Uber board, but it only showed up in my posting history, and not the topic area. So, let's see what happens here.
> 
> Begin post:
> 
> ...


It was posted here hundreds if not thousands of times about the scam the Uber/Santander financing deal really is, Uber needed more drivers on the road so they could show their investors and the people they where asking money from "most recent round of money borrowing" that their model was going to work "this was the only way to do it", you had to be out of your mind to go through with it, no one forced your hand, like the saying goes, if it's too good to be true it usually is nothing but a scam. Did you really think you where going to make that kind of money driving a Taxi.


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## Shea F. Kenny (Jan 3, 2015)

cybertec69 said:


> It was posted here hundreds if not thousands of times about the scam the Uber/Santander financing deal really is, Uber needed more drivers on the road so they could show their investors and the people they where asking money from "most recent round of money borrowing" that their model was going to work "this was the only way to do it", you had to be out of your mind to go through with it, no one forced your hand, like the saying goes, if it's too good to be true it usually is nothing but a scam. Did you really think you where going to make that kind of money driving a Taxi.


Well, that's my point. If it is a scam, won't Uber be held accountable? Obviously people like you think that if I get scammed, it's all my fault, even though I've done more than my obligations would seem to require.

This folks, is why we have courts and trained and experienced regulators, to protect us.

They won't blame us for being victimized, like our beloved internet Dr. Phils will...........

LOL


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> Well, that's my point. If it is a scam, won't Uber be held accountable? Obviously people like you think that if I get scammed, it's all my fault, even though I've done more than my obligations would seem to require.
> 
> This folks, is why we have courts and trained and experienced regulators, to protect us.
> 
> ...


My mother watches Dr. Phil, his whole show is about calling people stupid for being victimized.


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## Shea F. Kenny (Jan 3, 2015)

ElectroFuzz said:


> To summarize your post:
> Regulators, courts and god..... SAVE ME!
> 
> You took a very malicious bait, I hope it will work out for you.


Well, I see I have another egotistical illiterate to contend with. The post was about subprime financing, and bundling it into AAA securities packages.

Now, Santandar apparently, was more than happy to make these financial deals with subprime applicants, because it intended all along to sell them to bundlers, at a huge discount. On my lease, the vehicle purchase was about 27k, and total payout is about 42k. So, they probably sold the leases for 7k, or less, above the purchase price.

And not giving a rip about whether or not the drivers would be able to pay their bills and living expenses. And all because they no longer owned the leases.

But, that's all rumor for right now. I've received no notifications of a new owner, and the feds have only just begun to investigate.

Uber stood to benefit greatly from brand new cars entering it's fleet of UberX vehicles. It would have done them a great service to guarantee insurance coverage and income, for drivers who signed up.

You talk about an easy lawsuit. They are in complete control of how much I make, particularly if I can prove I work a full 8-10 hour shift every day.

If I can't pay my bills and expenses, it's their fault....

LOL


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## cybertec69 (Jul 23, 2014)

I hope you read the fine print, good luck.


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## Uber Driver 007 (Jun 17, 2014)

I feel as if @Shea F. Kenny and our ole' friend Boyle might make good friends.


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## Yuri Lygotme (Jul 27, 2014)

I don't understand why some drivers thought it was necessary to buy a NEW car, while an used car can do the same job. I drive a 2006 Scion with 185k miles on it, and I get 32mpg! In excellent interior and exterior condition (one Pax even told me he thought it was a new car) The difference? I don't have to pay Uber $200 a week to work. And that's the only difference.


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## centralFLFuber (Nov 21, 2014)

as ive said elsewhere...most leases/contracts tied to uber/santander financing are VOID cuz they r being used as commercial vehicle...AND yet registerd/insured as personal

u might want to see about returning vehicle and VOIDING contract! of file bankruptcy..see an attorney....Good Luck


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> LOL


If you want to be taken seriously, please refrain from using "lol" in almost every post, like a 15 year old teeny bopper.
Just saying...


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> I'm going to contact an attorney I've used successfully in the past and see if he's interested in gearing up a class action suit


The attorney that's most experienced in Uber lawsuits is Shannon Lis-Riordan. Give her office a call. But as far as Driver's filing Class Action lawsuit, most cannot as they never opted out of the Binding Arbitration.

www.uberlawsuit.com


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## cybertec69 (Jul 23, 2014)

Yuri Lygotme said:


> I don't understand why some drivers thought it was necessary to buy a NEW car, while an used car can do the same job. I drive a 2006 Scion with 185k miles on it, and I get 32mpg! In excellent interior and exterior condition (one Pax even told me he thought it was a new car) The difference? I don't have to pay Uber $200 a week to work. And that's the only difference.


Your car can not operate as a TLC vehicle in nyc.


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## Schulz (Nov 25, 2014)

Thanks for your post, OP.
What about the UBER car loan option, instead of the lease? Did UBER offer the car loan deal at the time you got your lease?


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## ElectroFuzz (Jun 10, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> Well, I see I have another egotistical illiterate to contend with. The post was about subprime financing, and bundling it into AAA securities packages.
> 
> LOL


Really?.... nothing personal?
In any case all the best to you.


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## centralFLFuber (Nov 21, 2014)

Schulz said:


> Thanks for your post, OP.
> What about the UBER car loan option, instead of the lease? Did UBER offer the car loan deal at the time you got your lease?


u would be better off agreeing to a deal with a loan shark over uber...anyone who buys a newer vehicle for the purpose of ubering must be mentally insane

Just SAY NO....its a financial trap/suicide


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## MiamiFlyer (Sep 22, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> You see, the real problem is these loans are being bundled into financial securities packages, and buyers of those packages, are unaware of this, just like the home mortgages debacle.


The bundling and sale of the loan has nothing to do with your agreement. You won't be excused for your end because your loan is sold.
The issue of the bundling is an issue between the buyer and the seller of your loan, of which you are not a party.



Shea F. Kenny said:


> Or, they take the car away and I'm out of a job, and they are out of their weekly payments, and the subprime financing, will default and leave the holders, with nothing.


They are not left with nothing. They recover the car and resell it. The longer you have kept up with payments, the less of a loss. They can still come after and sue you personally after they repo the car too.
On subprime loans, they already build into the interest rate that a certain percentage of the loans will default. 
The owner of the debt only looses if the number of defaults is significantly higher than the anticipated default. At these insane interest rates, it would take a lot of default. Subprime housing was different in that the interest rates were also incredibly low at the time, leaving short room for error with defaults. Also different from housing, your subprime cars will not gain value, so there are no speculators driving up pricing, nor very creative financing deals like 'interest only' or 5 Year ARMs.

*Sadly, at the end of the day, it was the banks that got the bailout from subprime mortgages, not the homeowners.
*
Wish you the best, but its a monster uphill climb.


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## cybertec69 (Jul 23, 2014)

Like I said, should have read the FINE print.


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

Schulz said:


> Thanks for your post, OP.
> What about the UBER car loan option, instead of the lease? Did UBER offer the car loan deal at the time you got your lease?


I did not know about the uber used car financing until about a week after I got the lease-to-own, so I am a little pissed, as may be I could have gotten a 2011 -2012 Lincoln MKZ hybrid, that car is ok for uberPlus.


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## cybertec69 (Jul 23, 2014)

painfreepc said:


> I did not know about the uber used car financing until about a week after I got the lease-to-own, so I am a little pissed, as may be I could have gotten a 2011 -2012 Lincoln MKZ hybrid, that car is ok for uberPlus.


So you are saying that Uber never brought that option to your attention. Did you go in there blind folded by any chance.


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

cybertec69 said:


> So you are saying that Uber never brought that option to your attention. Did you go in there blind folded by any chance.


Let's get right to it, please tell what the normal monthly payments should be for a 2015 ford fusion hybrid SE financed for 52 months.

Please assume you are the one offering the financing for people with no to very bad credit, maybe even no job, no co-signer, no 10 names address and phone numbers of friends and relatives, no list of the last 5 places he/she lived and worked, and only $1,000 down payment.

What is the amount of money you require monthly for 52 months to assume that $29,000 risk, please do tell.


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## MiamiFlyer (Sep 22, 2014)

With Bad Credit, and minimal down payment, its a mistake to even step onto the new car lot.
You can find subprime used car financing without Uber's "help"

Ford Fushion Hybrid SE average selling price is $25783 in the LA area per TrueCar.com; Invoice price $26.101, MSRP $27,715.
A level credit (700+ FICO) can get you under 3% interest, and even the major banks adverstise under 2.5%

I believe 9.99 would be a good subprime starting rate. Anything more is pretty ridiculous, but the dealership will be happy to quote you 20% to see if you will go for it even if your credit worthy for an 8% loan.

Basic financing rules to buying a car:

The salesperson will ask you what your monthly budget is. Your response needs to be: I am not here to buy a payment, I am here to buy a car.
You must negotiate the price of the car first.
Then you negotiate the financing terms including down payment, term length, and APR %.
Do not be afraid to walk out, they will call you back.

$215 a month is the difference between A credit, and a 20% subprime loan.

52 months, at invoice price, $1K down, and 2.5%: $509.83 or $117.68 per week.
at 9.99% $596.69 or $137.71 per week
at 14.99% $659.25 or $152.14 per week 
at 19.99% $725.36 or $167.40 per week

****Note the calculations do not include sales tax as those vary by county.

or, I found a 2012 Used Ford Fushion with 55k miles, listed at $17,000

52 months, at list price, $1K down, and 2.5%: $324.98 or $75.00 per week
9.99%  $380.34 or $87.77 per week
14.99% $420.22 or $96.98 per week
19.99% $462.37 or $106.78 per week

Depreciation hits the car the second you drive off the lot. It hits the hardest in the 1st year. There is no need to pay for all this depreciation. Buy a car a couple years old and save yourself the depreciation expenses.


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

Why do you guys keep conpairing apples to oranges,
1. I don't what a used car, I am a full time driver 60 hours max, 
2. I don't have 700+ FICO,
3. No one is going to sell a $27,715 msrp for $25,783 to someone with bad credit and only $1,000 down.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

Like it has ben said by MiamiFlyer.

Your individual deal has nothing to do with credit bundles. First thing is you can't claim for damages based on a deal that was made on speculation of income. Uber may have told you that you "can" make up to $XXX per week. But in the end you are responsible for the loan. No matter how bad it is. Unless your state has a cap on interest rates that one can charge and they broke that law, you are on the hook. Best thing is default and take your lumps on your credit score. You got 7 years to clean it up.

Second I doubt your deal got moved into a AAA portfolio and sold off. I haven't looked into it but for the most part all car loans are not AAA credit worthy. Any purchaser of said credit portfolios will do the research and if found will not buy the package.

AAA credit evaluations are usually commercial loans to investment grade quality companies and secure mortgages with 25% equity in the deal. (In nutshell a sure thing return with low profit)

If the sub prime fiasco taught the investment community you look into where your credit risk is in every purchase of this kind of investment.

You deal would be a B or C-, about the same risk as high default credit cards. High return if it holds together.

The ratings I am using are just so you get an idea from a simpleton point of view. The ratings letters are not B and C. There is a whole chart I have that we use here to identify the quality of credit related investments.

Now on that note what is the big trend right now investors need to be aware right now is Rental investments getting lumped into other types of securities. The books say one thing but when someone is evicted no one sees it represented as a loss on the books till it's too late.

So back to your issue. It's your issue and what happens in the investment community will do nothing to your loan. If it defaults you will be on the hook. Sorry it's not better news.


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## MiamiFlyer (Sep 22, 2014)

painfreepc said:


> Why do you guys keep conpairing apples to oranges,
> 1. I don't what a used car, I am a full time driver 60 hours max,
> 2. I don't have 700+ FICO,
> 3. No one is going to sell a $27,715 msrp for $25,783 to someone with bad credit and only $1,000 down.


1. It is general advice for everyone, its not just about you. You are overpaying for what you are getting, and you know it.
2. See #1, it was also to illustrate the cost of subprime credit.
3. They will sell you the car at or below 'invoice', especially if you walk in at the right time, like the end of the month when people are trying to make their units bonus. MSRP is a sucker price. They will make their money on you in financing the subprime. The price of the car has nothing to do with the financing. They are independent factors.

You honestly have more leverage when shopping for a new car to get the best available price, because the next town's FORD dealership has the same make & model sitting on their lot too. With used cars, if you find something you like, you may or may not be able to find it down the street in the same condition.


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## Shea F. Kenny (Jan 3, 2015)

centralFLFuber said:


> u would be better off agreeing to a deal with a loan shark over uber...anyone who buys a newer vehicle for the purpose of ubering must be mentally insane
> 
> Just SAY NO....its a financial trap/suicide


You STILL don't understand the topic of the post. It's about Santander making these finance arrangements, and planning all the while to sell them to unsuspecting securities firms.

IT'S SIMPLE!!!!!!!! WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE GET THIS???????

Well, the simple answer is you're egotistical morons who don't know what they're talking about, and think that all I'm taliing about is ME, ME, ME!!

Watch. Some stupid cluck is going to say, verbatim, "Well, that's all I saw you talking about!".

LOL


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## Shea F. Kenny (Jan 3, 2015)

Actionjax said:


> Like it has ben said by MiamiFlyer.
> 
> Your individual deal has nothing to do with credit bundles. First thing is you can't claim for damages based on a deal that was made on speculation of income. Uber may have told you that you "can" make up to $XXX per week. But in the end you are responsible for the loan. No matter how bad it is. Unless your state has a cap on interest rates that one can charge and they broke that law, you are on the hook. Best thing is default and take your lumps on your credit score. You got 7 years to clean it up.
> 
> ...


Uber is providing the income............Sheesh...............


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## Shea F. Kenny (Jan 3, 2015)

MiamiFlyer said:


> The bundling and sale of the loan has nothing to do with your agreement. You won't be excused for your end because your loan is sold.
> The issue of the bundling is an issue between the buyer and the seller of your loan, of which you are not a party.
> 
> They are not left with nothing. They recover the car and resell it. The longer you have kept up with payments, the less of a loss. They can still come after and sue you personally after they repo the car too.
> ...


Well, that's my whole point. Christ sake! Drivers all over America, are not going to be able to keep these agreements, becuase Uber is just going to add drivers, and not care about those of us who put it all on the line.

And the EVIDENCE IS, they sold these subprime financing deals to others.

They should not be able to get away with this.

I bargained in VERY good faith and it's obvious, Uber and Santander, were only concerned about making money.

You tell people they can EARN 1000 a week, and you'll put them in a brand new car, that's what better happen......

LOL


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> You STILL don't understand the topic of the post. It's about Santander making these finance arrangements, and planning all the while to sell them to unsuspecting securities firms.
> 
> IT'S SIMPLE!!!!!!!! WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE GET THIS???????
> 
> ...


They are not unsuspecting securities firms. There are people who buy these securities that are a lot smarter than you. If we bought this and didn't know what was in them we would get fired for being stupid. Plain and simple. This is not rocket science.

You obviously think this stuff is sold in some back alley and doesn't have a team of researchers looking in to the quality of the investment.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> Uber is providing the income............Sheesh...............


Uber provides an opportunity, not an income. You are in the eyes of the law a small business not an employee. You have no legal recourse or employment contract with a salary.

It's no different if you started a company and bought computer equipment to get started. If the company goes bust due to a lack of income, you loose the equipment.

I know you are in a shitty situation, I do feel for your situation where Uber was false in their advertisement of what looked like a good deal. I could se how it looked like a great way to make money and how Uber destroyed it's own market over time for the drivers. But in the end you are the person who is screwed in this and you got to look at it with a business sense and get unscrewed.

Get out of the situation, lick your wounds and move on. Don't kill yourself for this, you can do better and start fresh.


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Uber provides an opportunity, not an income. You are in the eyes of the law a small business not an employee. You have no legal recourse or employment contract with a salary.
> 
> It's no different if you started a company and bought computer equipment to get started. If the company goes bust due to a lack of income, you loose the equipment.
> 
> ...


Uber made it possible for me to get a new car to do uber business, 
uber sets the cost of the trips we do for uber,
uber is providing the income,
uber takes money out of my direct deposit to pay santander.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> I tried to post this on another Uber board, but it only showed up in my posting history, and not the topic area. So, let's see what happens here.
> 
> Begin post:
> 
> ...


Could you please post where you read that Uber is being investigated for supplying subprime loans to drivers. All information I have seen is that Santander and GM are being investigated not Uber.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

painfreepc said:


> Uber made it possible for me to get a new car to do uber business,
> uber sets the cost of the trips we do for uber,
> uber is providing the income,
> uber takes money out of my direct deposit to pay santander.


Sorry but Uber assisted in the arrangement. They don't provide you an income no more than a stripper gets an income from a club. It's an opportunity and a platform. What you do with it is up to you. That's like a strip club buying an outfit for a girl and deducting out of their money they earn on the floor.

Again they don't provide the income, they provide the platform only.


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## DJ8mup (Oct 16, 2014)

From what I understand from a Santandar lease is if you return the vehicle within the first year it's $1000, 2nd year $750, 3rd year $500. So there is an out, you just have to pay the penalty. And I'm pretty sure the lease is not reported to the credit agencies. However I could be wrong in the case of a default.


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Sorry but Uber assisted in the arrangement. They don't provide you an income no more than a stripper gets an income from a club. It's an opportunity and a platform. What you do with it is up to you. That's like a strip club buying an outfit for a girl and deducting out of their money they earn on the floor.
> 
> Again they don't provide the income, they provide the platform only.


For the following example, let's return to my taxi days,
The examples below are real:

Example #1.
Hello Joe, i have a pick-up tomorrow at 4am to LAX Airport, I can't cover it, as I have a 6am going to downtown LA, I informed passenger I was not available due to another client pick-up at 6am, he ask if I knew a taxi driver that would be willing to do a 4am pick-up,
The trip will meter for about $200, please offer client a good price, as you already know clients call me for great service at a good price.

Example #2.
Hello Joe, i have a pick-up tomorrow at 4am to LAX Airport, I can't cover it, as I have a 6am going to downtown LA, the LAX run normally pays $200, but passenger is only willing to pay $140 - my $28 kickback, total for you Joe $112
(2 months from now price will be $120)
(5 months from now price will be $100)

Which example above sounds a lot like uber?


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

painfreepc said:


> For the following example, let's return to my taxi days,
> The examples below are real:
> 
> Example #1.
> ...


For sure Uber is example 2. But lets face it...you can also tell them to take a hike and do something else. The job is a freelance job, plain and simple. Even the Taxi industry put's no guarantees on income. Although regulation insulates the practice that Uber does and flood the market with drivers.

I used to have the opinion that Uber was good for the industry on the whole. But in recent months I see that unchecked by local governments it is not good for the industry. The flooding of New Years shows this and I am surprised they don't se this themselves. While I think the Taxi industry itself is broken, Uber will make things worse for the industry and not better.

Problem is people in lease agreements are getting hosed as Uber changes it's course they are taking to be the low cost flood they are aiming for.


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## Jackie murphy (Dec 10, 2014)

I signed up for this extortion I stopped driving for Uber 1/1/ 15 called Santander they told me I'm still responsible for lease I said how could I since it. Clearly says I can only drive car for Ubering would not answer told them they could come get there car . They informed me would be in touch with me .I did ask if I could buy car for agreed upon price and finance it say 400 a month . Said would be in touch . I have put 30k on car in 4 months I have 40 k lease .Im declaring Bankruptcy anyway dodnt care either way .But I had such high hopes when I signed up Mr Uber Flooded the streets with Uber cars my pay dropped 30 percent


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

Jackie murphy said:


> I signed up for this extortion I stopped driving for Uber 1/1/ 15 called Santander they told me I'm still responsible for lease I said how could I since it. Clearly says I can only drive car for Ubering would not answer told them they could come get there car . They informed me would be in touch with me .I did ask if I could buy car for agreed upon price and finance it say 400 a month . Said would be in touch . I have put 30k on car in 4 months I have 40 k lease .Im declaring Bankruptcy anyway dodnt care either way .But I had such high hopes when I signed up Mr Uber Flooded the streets with Uber cars my pay dropped 30 percent


What car?, if it's the Camry, fusion or prius, even at 0% interest the payments would be more than $400 per month.

Unless you are going to finance it for 72 months.


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## Jackie murphy (Dec 10, 2014)

I'm just giving an example . I dodnt even know what Samtander does they dodnt want car but car is directly tied to Mr Uber I dodnt work or contract with Uber . This is going to happen a lot if I was Santander I d be pissed at Mr Uber I'm not sure if Uber is on the hook for these leases where the lease is tied to Only doing Uber work it's called on Recourse


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## xtree78 (Nov 6, 2014)

I leased a car and I am one that actually thought it was a good deal. I still would think it was a good deal if they had not lowered rates 4 times in 6 months making it impossible for me to maintain a standard of living while working full time. 

I am now on the screw uber/santander band wagon. If you want to contact me for ways I can help someone put said screws to use let me know. I have no idea how to send a pm so don't expect me to reach out to you


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

xtree78 said:


> I leased a car and I am one that actually thought it was a good deal. I still would think it was a good deal if they had not lowered rates 4 times in 6 months making it impossible for me to maintain a standard of living while working full time.
> 
> I am now on the screw uber/santander band wagon. If you want to contact me for ways I can help someone put said screws to use let me know. I have no idea how to send a pm so don't expect me to reach out to you


Why not just quit Uber and end the lease? There are out's on the contract.


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Why not just quit Uber and end the lease? There are out's on the contract.


How about find another job and just do uber Saturday night 7pm to 3am to subsidize the car payment.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

painfreepc said:


> How about find another job and just do uber Saturday night 7pm to 3am to subsidize the car payment.


Option 2 long as your Saturday isn't flooded with drivers and you only make about $50 a night.


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> Option 2 long as your Saturday isn't flooded with drivers and you only make about $50 a night.


Glad i don't live in toronto..


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## UberBlackPr1nce (Dec 28, 2014)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> Well, before I joined Uber, I watched the traffic on the client app for two solid weeks and at all times of day and night. And decided to take the risk. I didn't have unreasonable expectations, and they were well met,the first few weeks. And I doubt I'm the only one in this situation, in all of America.
> 
> And what logic are you speaking of? What would qualify Uber for a bailout? The one's getting the bailout, if any, would be the holders of the subprime financing agreements, not Uber or Santander, because they got their money.
> 
> ...


This guy seems pretty smart and articulate. I was getting so much flak about my past thread about people taking these deals because they are uneducated but here we can clearly see this guy is not illiterate, just.......


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## John Anderson (Jan 12, 2015)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> Well, before I joined Uber, I watched the traffic on the client app for two solid weeks and at all times of day and night. And decided to take the risk. I didn't have unreasonable expectations, and they were well met,the first few weeks. And I doubt I'm the only one in this situation, in all of America.
> 
> And what logic are you speaking of? What would qualify Uber for a bailout? The one's getting the bailout, if any, would be the holders of the subprime financing agreements, not Uber or Santander, because they got their money.
> 
> ...


The logic: you took on slave debt. You will work day and night with no expectation of profit for five years.


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## DFWFusion (Dec 21, 2014)

John Anderson said:


> The logic: you took on slave debt. You will work day and night with no expectation of profit for five years.


Indentured Servitude.


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

Jackie murphy said:


> I signed up for this extortion I stopped driving for Uber 1/1/ 15 called Santander they told me I'm still responsible for lease I said how could I since it. Clearly says I can only drive car for Ubering would not answer told them they could come get there car . They informed me would be in touch with me .I did ask if I could buy car for agreed upon price and finance it say 400 a month . Said would be in touch . I have put 30k on car in 4 months I have 40 k lease .Im declaring Bankruptcy anyway dodnt care either way .But I had such high hopes when I signed up Mr Uber Flooded the streets with Uber cars my pay dropped 30 percent


Sorry you've been put through this. But this is the outcome of a totally unregulated market. The only winners are those who have the greatest leverage in the market. Uber sells drivers a promise, which becomes a trap if you take a lease, Then it becomes nightmare if you have at fault accident in your car. There goes all income and transport.

Uber simply takes a risk free 20% cut of what you do plus the $1.00 per job.


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## John Anderson (Jan 12, 2015)

DFWFusion said:


> Indentured Servitude.


No. Slavery.


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

The Uber Auto Loan Program is a trap. My problem is that I thought the Dealership was the one that screwed me, but after reading this it may well be that Uber and Exeter are sleeping together so Uber can profit on the car sale. I got "shafted" into this deal also, but it was okay when you could make 5k per month. With rates as they have been over the past 3 to 4 months, I cannot make a profit. I tried to discuss this with Uber and was told, " the fares you earn on trips are helping to cover payments on the new car you purchased and own independently. The more trips you take , the more money you'll get to keep over and above your exeter payments."

I may own the car independently but it is not my personal car. The car I purchased was to be used for driving as a Uber Partner with the belief that Uber as my partner was going to ensure earnings sufficient to make the payments and provide an income. In short, I invested in a new car. I have another vehicle that I love more than the car purchased via Uber, I have no need of the new car except as a Uber car. When I bought the car, I bought it through Uber. I went to the people Uber sent me to, I completed my payroll deduction agreement, and went to work. I found out about 2 weeks later how badly Uber had screwed me, but that is another story. The importance of how much we were making at the time of purchase vs present earnings has the lot of us unable to earn a penny if even meet our expenses. Presently it costs me less to let my car sit in the driveway and pay the note out of pocket than it does to try to drive it. The current rates do not cover my expenses and if I were to try and chase my tail to find a break even point, I would still make less than $1000.00 per month if working over 50 hours per week.

I realize that I let them put me in this position. I see they have made a fool out of me. And while it pisses me off that they have done so, it really pisses me off that they have got away with doing this to quite a few more people which demonstrates their intent to "shaft" people that came to Uber and were willing to take a chance on Uber being honest and ethical. Well that idea is shit in the wind isn't it?

Uber has provided employment to 160,000 people in America. That alone should have earned them National Hero status and Uber is proudly spreading their propaganda claiming they deserve such title. But Uber does not even come close to such award . . . BECAUSE UBER TOOK AWAY ALL OF THE DRIVERS EARNINGS BY RATE REDUCTIONS, AND NOBODY IS MAKING ABOVE MINIMUM WAGE ANY MORE. Uber not only shafted me with a car that will serve as my anchor, but they also shafted all of you. If you truly believe you are earning above minimum wage, take your earnings to an accountant. Do it! When he is done showing you the depth of the shaft you have been given, you also will be quite irritated. Uber didn't just screw me, Uber also screwed you, and you, and you . . .

We ought to be taking as much action against Uber as we can, but nobody is. Why? Why haven't we collectively closed down every major city we drive in. Why haven't we taken our issues before the PUC, the Mayor's Office, and all of the Government agencies we possibly can? Why aren't you as concerned about this as I am? I understand, you still believe you are making money. There is something really wrong about being told that we have to work twice as hard to earn half as much and that our efforts and our investments do not matter a damn to Uber. And yes, every driver should be concerned about it.


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## Amsoil Uber Connect (Jan 14, 2015)

This is why once I learned you could be deactivated I baled on the lease idea. And so far I doubt uber could careless if you can make the payment. Plus I wanted a car I would be happy with, if Uber doesn't work out. 

Sometimes you just have to have your cake too.


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## Bridget (Jan 29, 2015)

cybertec69 said:


> Like I said, should have read the FINE print.


Stop saying that! I am a driver myself. I sat there at the dealership and read through the contract for a full hour. There are some things that Santander is getting away with, that is not stated in the contract... Or the contract is written in such language that only an attorney would understand it. This was clearly a bad deal for drivers and we all went in with good intentions. Coming from a business perspective.. It was not a bad decision to lease the vehicle.. If the driver actually was able to acquire 1500 per wk as stated in most advertisements by Uber.. then this vehicle would have been an excellent write-off. We are not fools.. We are obviously innocent people who were interested in making an honest living.... And those who are not business wouldn't be able to understand the logic in all of this.


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## Bridget (Jan 29, 2015)

I just found out that the 1k and 500 fee is not the only termination charge. Once you return the vehicle, Santander also charges an early termination charge in the amount of almost 2500 dollars.. In addition, once the vehicle is auctioned off, whatever it is valued at, you will have to pay the remaining amount of the loan. Well , when you drive a vehicle off the lot.. It immediately depreciates in value. Therefore, we were doomed from day one. It's unfair.. Something must be done. Does anyone have an attorney that they can refer us to?


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## No-tippers-suck (Oct 20, 2014)

I was also about getting a Fusion Hybrig for over $200 a week..
Have went to the Ford dealership with the "Uber leasing event".
GLAD I DIDN'T DO IT !

But I understand the original poster why he did it.. Our Uber income was ok so far back then.
You could make over 1k per week and if you worked 7 days and 12 hours or more you could even generate $1500 per week.
But I had a feeling that this was not forever.. I was noticing their marketing efforts to get more drivers on the road and decided
this is too risky.
- Then Uber played too much with the numbers.. the surges.. and their requirements..
- The "5 star experience for Riders" with the Spotify App was exactly the day when I decided I will quit Uberdriving.

- I was looking for alternative jobs even worked at a mechanic shop for $10 an hour for 2 weeks to try it.
Then I started my own business again : I was doing Tints, wraps and signage from 2002 to 2012.
Well, I invested my last money and maxed my credit cards out to buy some materials and equipment.

- After the New Yorks Eve disaster (I just made $400 in 13 hours on the best night of the year since EVER !)
Usually you could make between $800 to $1000 in just one night.

- THEN I QUIT UBER FINALLY.. just made a ride here and there if I was on my way to groceries if I got a ping..
My last ride was on Jan. 12

- I almost finished wrapping my car in a "weird color" so I couldn't drive for Uber anymore even if I wanted.
EVEN PUT SOME SIDEWINDER MISSILES ON MY CAR "HAHA..!"

Since I didn't update my Drivers licence on my Uber partner account and it expires today, I will be deactivated today.
That was my story brother and sisters. Just to motivate you that there is a life after Uber if you're dedicated and willing to take a risk.

*I went from being a highly motivated Uber partner like this :*










* ..TO THIS : "DOING WHATEVER "I" WANT instead of doing what Uber wants. even being weird and putting Sidewinder Rockets on my car..*










*If there is someone seriously interested in learning how to "Tint and Wrap" I will teach for free and eventually hire part time in the beginning.
If I can help another driver and create "real jobs" and not Uber one way independent contractor jobs I will do it.*


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

Bridget said:


> I just found out that the 1k and 500 fee is not the only termination charge. Once you return the vehicle, Santander also charges an early termination charge in the amount of almost 2500 dollars.. In addition, once the vehicle is auctioned off, whatever it is valued at, you will have to pay the remaining amount of the loan. Well , when you drive a vehicle off the lot.. It immediately depreciates in value. Therefore, we were doomed from day one. It's unfair.. Something must be done. Does anyone have an attorney that they can refer us to?


Like you said, unless you have experience reading legal speak for the average consumer this is not a contract easy to read. In fact contracts like this have been challenged in court under the grounds that they are not in plain English for customers to understand. And they won. (In Canada). This has caused many contracts to be re-written in what is called plain English.

The issue is not if the contract is fair or not. (Contracts are just things, it's an individual to determine what is fair). The contract itself may be fair by my standpoint, but it's the numbers that get filled into those blanks that are ridiculous.


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## xtree78 (Nov 6, 2014)

If santander is charging anything more than what is in the contract to give the car back then that is illegal and you should go to the Texas attourney general and file a claim. Legally in this country all states MUST look into consumer complaints. If santander is charging more than the fees on the lease that is grounds for a consumer complaint and if found guilty of contract violations the state MUST sue for damages. File file file


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## xtree78 (Nov 6, 2014)

I am a leasee and I read my contract and nowhere does it state in the early termination clause I am on the hook for the depreciation of the car when sold. If it does say this then it was in legal speak and hidden.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Bridget said:


> Stop saying that! I am a driver myself. I sat there at the dealership and read through the contract for a full hour. There are some things that Santander is getting away with, that is not stated in the contract... Or the contract is written in such language that only an attorney would understand it. This was clearly a bad deal for drivers and we all went in with good intentions. Coming from a business perspective.. It was not a bad decision to lease the vehicle.. If the driver actually was able to acquire 1500 per wk as stated in most advertisements by Uber.. then this vehicle would have been an excellent write-off. We are not fools.. We are obviously innocent people who were interested in making an honest living.... And those who are not business wouldn't be able to understand the logic in all of this.


Unfortunately when people read 'make' they see 'profit.'

The term is not 'profit.' It's GROSS before any cuts from Uber and expenses. So there is make SHIT when it comes to profit.

Funny how a simple term called MAKE makes so many damn indentured fools.

IF I wanted to be a construction/contractor the very LAST thing I'd do would be to go out and buy all new tools and a new truck. I might try it without as much DEBT first.

So, what do you say to people who don't know the difference between MAKE and PROFIT?

Nothing. They are just going to be taught a very hard lesson in the exercise of risk and the deployment of the english language by being sold a bill of crap and actually believing it.

There are still people who think Publishers Clearing House is about to bring them MILLIONS.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

xtree78 said:


> I am a leasee and I read my contract and nowhere does it state in the early termination clause I am on the hook for the depreciation of the car when sold. If it does say this then it was in legal speak and hidden.


When did you EVER buy a car and NOT have a lying sales person?!

Please people, this is Amerika.

Deal with lying as a reality.


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## painfreepc (Jul 17, 2014)

xtree78 said:


> If santander is charging anything more than what is in the contract to give the car back then that is illegal and you should go to the Texas attourney general and file a claim. Legally in this country all states MUST look into consumer complaints. If santander is charging more than the fees on the lease that is grounds for a consumer complaint and if found guilty of contract violations the state MUST sue for damages. File file file


I can add this for your info,

I called santander last week, to ask for more information about the $0.25 per mile fee if you return car early with more than 40,000 miles per year, a csr tolled me we can not charge the $0.25 per mile fee as it is not in the contract, csr also said santander will be contacting uber about the over limit mileage fee.


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> There are still people who think Publishers Clearing House is about to bring them MILLIONS.


WTF....Im not getting my millions....they told me I was selected.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Actionjax said:


> WTF....Im not getting my millions....they told me I was selected.


Me too, dem lyin basterds.


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## Bridget (Jan 29, 2015)

I had a manager from Santander's Office of the President contact me today. I will write down all the details in reference to the fees acquired when returning the vehicle and then share them with you all.


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## Uber-Doober (Dec 16, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Unfortunately when people read 'make' they see 'profit.'
> 
> The term is not 'profit.' It's GROSS before any cuts from Uber and expenses. So there is make SHIT when it comes to profit.
> 
> ...


^^^
You couldn't be more correct about the differenc between MAKE and PROFIT, and Uber has been making this claim since day one. 
Take a look at all those Craigslist ads where they say "make". 
If you notice, they use the word "Gross" as little as possible so that people won't go off and actually do a Google search on what Gross means and then ultimately see the difference as to "Net". 
And then on the other side of the coin, some people read and translate what they want to because they're so caught up in the moment, that they actually pressure themselves into something risky... like a pyramid scheme. And I'm not even gonna go there...

And by the way, there are dealerships in every city in the country who will make a sub-prime loan for less than anything that Santander can come up with, which makes me automatically suspicious that Uber is somehow connected to a kickback, or to put it politely... a "Finder's Fee".

One last thing. 
There's a used car dealer just a few miles from my house that's on Las Vegas Bl. (Has a terrible reputation, by the way) that has a 2012 Black Suburban on the lot with "25,000 miles" slathered all over the windshield. Stopped in there last night after closing just to take a look, and this vehicle hasn't got a ripple down the sides and is in really nice shape.... and the windows are already tinted and has Nevada plates. 
I know the owner just in passing and I'm gonna stop in there maybe tomorrow and tell him straight out that I'm not interested but just want to kinda pick his brain and see what the deal is. I'll just say that it's for future reference and tell him why and that maybe if Uber ever comes back to Nevada maybe I could throw some business his way. (For that "finder's fee", of course.)

Hey, what can I say? I'm as larcenous as the next guy.


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> I tried to post this on another Uber board, but it only showed up in my posting history, and not the topic area. So, let's see what happens here.
> 
> Begin post:
> 
> ...


You sound like a smart guy!Why WTF would you make a deal with the devil (UBER)? You could do better at a bit here pay here place,baffles me.


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

Roogy said:


> Well reasoned. But it can take a long time to win that battle in the courts. By then the lease will be paid off, or your car repossessed.


With these rates, it will most likely be car repossessed lol


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> Well, before I joined Uber, I watched the traffic on the client app for two solid weeks and at all times of day and night. And decided to take the risk. I didn't have unreasonable expectations, and they were well met,the first few weeks. And I doubt I'm the only one in this situation, in all of America.
> 
> And what logic are you speaking of? What would qualify Uber for a bailout? The one's getting the bailout, if any, would be the holders of the subprime financing agreements, not Uber or Santander, because they got their money.
> 
> ...


lol good luck


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

Shea F. Kenny said:


> Well, before I joined Uber, I watched the traffic on the client app for two solid weeks and at all times of day and night. And decided to take the risk. I didn't have unreasonable expectations, and they were well met,the first few weeks. And I doubt I'm the only one in this situation, in all of America.
> 
> And what logic are you speaking of? What would qualify Uber for a bailout? The one's getting the bailout, if any, would be the holders of the subprime financing agreements, not Uber or Santander, because they got their money.
> 
> ...


You sound like UBERJAX twin brother.


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

painfreepc said:


> Let's get right to it, please tell what the normal monthly payments should be for a 2015 ford fusion hybrid SE financed for 52 months.
> 
> Please assume you are the one offering the financing for people with no to very bad credit, maybe even no job, no co-signer, no 10 names address and phone numbers of friends and relatives, no list of the last 5 places he/she lived and worked, and only $1,000 down payment.
> 
> What is the amount of money you require monthly for 52 months to assume that $29,000 risk, please do tell.


You are 52 years old!Who ****s up there credit at 52,I'm 32 with a great credit score. What's wrong with you people?


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

painfreepc said:


> Why do you guys keep conpairing apples to oranges,
> 1. I don't what a used car, I am a full time driver 60 hours max,
> 2. I don't have 700+ FICO,
> 3. No one is going to sell a $27,715 msrp for $25,783 to someone with bad credit and only $1,000 down.


Perhaps you should not of wrecked you're credit.


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

xtree78 said:


> I leased a car and I am one that actually thought it was a good deal. I still would think it was a good deal if they had not lowered rates 4 times in 6 months making it impossible for me to maintain a standard of living while working full time.
> 
> I am now on the screw uber/santander band wagon. If you want to contact me for ways I can help someone put said screws to use let me know. I have no idea how to send a pm so don't expect me to reach out to you


So many bitter people lol.


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## Yuri Lygotme (Jul 27, 2014)

Hotep31 said:


> You are 52 years old!Who ****s up there credit at 52,I'm 32 with a great credit score. What's wrong with you people?


Probably because of your young age you have not faced medical bankruptcy for instance.


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## xtree78 (Nov 6, 2014)

Hotep31 said:


> So many bitter people lol.


You must be new to uber if you are not bitter too.


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

UberBlackPr1nce said:


> This guy seems pretty smart and articulate. I was getting so much flak about my past thread about people taking these deals because they are uneducated but here we can clearly see this guy is not illiterate, just.......





xtree78 said:


> You must be new to uber if you are not bitter too.


I'm not new to UBER, just try stay positive, plus our rates are $1.76 mile.


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## Uber-Doober (Dec 16, 2014)

Hotep31 said:


> Perhaps you should not of wrecked you're credit.


^^^
You know, I can see painfree's point. 
I tanked my credit but it wasn't really my fault. However I'm really surprised how high my credit is particularly because when I bought this house I wrote a check for it. 
But, my retirement folded or should I say "exploded" with the bubble and nobody that had retirement with my old company has anything left, really. 
And I'm old enuff to be most of you guys father, or maybe even grandfather.... at least in the strictly biological sense. 
If you told me 20 years ago that I would be in the financial shape that I'm in right now, I would have told you that you were crazy. 
I was also left a ton of stock by my parents which is all in the tank right now as compared to 25 years ago. 
Anyway, I can commiserate with painfree.


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

Hotep31 said:


> Perhaps you should not of wrecked you're credit.


I used to like Homer. At the end of each episode he comes to a point where he expresses a more human, sensitive side of his normal ignorant self.

I wonder when this show will reach that point.


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## Sacto Burbs (Dec 28, 2014)

Santander-enslaved persons in the US can be freed by bankruptcy. Don't use the term slavery lightly - a lot of men and women died to eradicate it in the US. 

Indentured servitude is correct. Sorry, can't think of a joke to lighten the mood.


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## Hotep31 (Jan 24, 2015)

Sydney Uber said:


> I used to like Homer. At the end of each episode he comes to a point where he expresses a more human, sensitive side of his normal ignorant self.
> 
> I wonder when this show will reach that point.


It's not ignorant to say take care of ones credit. I have empathy for them, I had financial difficulties my self. It's all how you handle the situation.


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## IndyDriver (Nov 6, 2014)

There are ways to get new cars without Uber financing if you have bad credit. It may be worth at least trying the local dealerships first...you may be surprised what they can work out. 

I bought a new Chevy Cruze in 2013 for 23k off the lot with a credit score of 610 and a judgement on my report from 2012...9.9%, no money down required. GM Financial was best rate but I was approved by 4 lenders from 9.9-19%. They have also gotten looked into for subprime lending practices, but I was more than happy with what I walked off the lot with considering the circumstances and have no complaints to this day. I had the income to support it which helped my case I'm sure. Yeah, the interest is still high, but I wasn't going to do any better anywhere else with that credit and I needed a car.


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## ShooUber (Sep 13, 2014)

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...g-practices/RK51H7I83Bd2UxrrCFeSLM/story.html


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## Actionjax (Oct 6, 2014)

ShooUber said:


> http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...g-practices/RK51H7I83Bd2UxrrCFeSLM/story.html


Looks like some Wall Street Big wigs didn't do their due diligence on their research and now getting burned. I would never trust a Spanish bank. They all tanked and needed huge bailout in 2007. Their practices have always been sketchy.

Just connected the dots that these are the guys doing the Uber Lease. Now it all makes sense.


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