# New Limits Raise Questions About Uber Drivers' Supposed Freedom



## The Entomologist (Sep 23, 2018)

*Uber and Lyft's efforts to restrict when & where drivers can work undercuts claims of a hands-off relationship with workers, observers say.*
*By Noah Manskar, Patch Staff
Sep 27, 2019 9:57 am ET | Updated Sep 27, 2019 12:03 pm ET*

Reply (5)







A Lyft ride hailing vehicle moves through traffic in Manhattan on July 30, 2018. (Photo by Spencer Platt/Getty Images)
NEW YORK - Uber and Lyft's efforts to restrict when and where New York City drivers can work undercuts their claims of a hands-off relationship with their struggling work force, industry observers say.

The companies' moves to block drivers from logging onto their apps because of low demand suggests they will have to treat their workers more like employees in the Big Apple's heavily regulated market rather than independent contractors, who do not have the same benefits or protections, observers argue.

"I think it's rotten and self-serving and hypocritical and exposes the lie at the heart of their business model," said City Council Member Brad Lander, who sponsored the legislation mandating the city's minimum-pay rules at the heart of the debate.

"When it's good for them, they want to say their drivers are independent contractors who have flexibility and set their own hours and should be treated not as employees but independent contractors," added Lander, a Brooklyn Democrat. "But when they want to exercise control over their drivers in order to save themselves money, they don't hesitate to do it."

Uber last week began blocking drivers from taking ride requests at locations and times of the day that demand for trips is low. The company said its hand was forced by both the city and Lyft, which imposed similar limits on its drivers in June.

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Hundreds of app-based drivers clogged traffic in Manhattan last week to protest Uber's decision and condemn the Taxi and Limousine Commission for not taking bolder action against the two leading ride-hail firms. The protest was led by the Independent Drivers Guild, a labor group for app-based drivers that it funded in part by Uber.

Uber and Lyft say their supply-control strategies are necessary because of the TLC's first-in-the-nation rules establishing a pay floor for app-based drivers. The companies argue that limiting the number of cars on the road is the only workable way for them to follow the rules, which are based on how much time drivers spend actually carrying passengers.

"Because of the TLC regulations, we're forced to make changes to the Lyft app to not allow drivers to be online if there isn't enough demand for rides," Lyft spokesperson Campbell Matthews said in a statement. "The TLC's approach is bad public policy, and we are working diligently to support drivers during this change."

To James Parrott, one of the economists who helped craft the minimum-pay rules, it's "inevitable" that the app companies will move further toward an employer-employee relationship with their drivers.

That's because TLC's stringent regulations on the ride-hailing industry - including the pay rules and a continued freeze on most new for-hire vehicles - push the firms to better manage how drivers use their time, Parrott said.

"That's a direction that exerts more company control over the driver than what the companies would like to see," Parrott said. "But that's the problem with their business model. It's not a problem with drivers or the regulation or anything else."

"I don't see how else this industry can function," he added.

Uber has fought efforts in New York and elsewhere to classify app-based drivers as full employees. The latest battle in that fight has unfolded in California, where Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a law last week aiming to give drivers employee status.

After lawmakers passed the measure, Uber Chief Legal Officer Tony West said nothing would change for drivers in the short term and argued that the work they perform is "outside the usual course of Uber's business."

Both Uber and Lyft contend that the new driver restrictions are merely unintended consequences of the TLC's rules. In Uber's eyes, following the rules does not change the company's relationship with its drivers.

"If the regulations change, Uber's products would change with them," Uber spokesperson Harry Hartfield said in a statement. "The idea that our decision to comply with regulations renders us an employer is illogical."

While the TLC does not decide whether drivers are employees, the agency argues the apps do not need to lock drivers out to make the rules work.

The companies could use incentives that encourage drivers to work when demand is high and stay offline when it's low instead of blocking them from driving altogether, the TLC, Lander and Parrott argue. (Both Uber and Lyft say they show drivers maps that direct them to parts of the city where demand for rides is highest.)

"The Mayor, TLC and City Council put in place smart policies to address the problems these companies created, and they are finally being forced to experiment with ways to run their businesses in an environment of accountability," Acting TLC Commissioner Bill Heinzen said in a statement.

The TLC and the council should change the city's rules or their underlying law to address the practice, Lander said, though he did not offer details about how to do that.

But driver advocates want the TLC to take more immediate and aggressive action against the restrictions. The Independent Drivers Guild urged the commission to do so in a June letter, before Lyft first started locking drivers out. The letter argued that the apps' tactics do not account for all of the time drivers spend waiting for trips, traveling to pick up riders and actually carrying passengers.

"They should be able to step ups and say, 'No, your loopholes should not be exploited at the expense of drivers,'" said Aziz Bah, a Corona Uber driver who is a steward for the guild.

_This story has been updated to include more details of the Independent Drivers Guild's June letter to the TLC._

https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/new-limits-raise-questions-uber-drivers-supposed-freedom

Keep making things as clear as day for the government, Uber.

You are here to laugh at labor laws, nothing boils the blood of a lawmaker more than a company blatantly exploiting a loophole in the preexisting laws.

By now NY is wondering:

"Hmmm, they are using the app to control the drivers as if they were employees"

Yeah, no shit Sherlock, welcome to exploiting the law through technology ala Uber (not the first guys but certainly the largest scale).


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

This is what happens when the government forces it's way into it. NY is the first, next will be CA. I will not vote for any politician that feels the need to overregulate Uber in my state. I do not want to be an employee.


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## Steve appleby (May 30, 2015)

Ssgcraig said:


> This is what happens when the government forces it's way into it. NY is the first, next will be CA. I will not vote for any politician that feels the need to overregulate Uber in my state. I do not want to be an employee.


Well that's what democrats like to do.. regulate, regulate, regulate.

Sometimes you just have to laugh at people when they make an idiotic argument and still stand by their argument when they know their wrong


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

Ssgcraig said:


> This is what happens when the government forces it's way into it. NY is the first, next will be CA. I will not vote for any politician that feels the need to overregulate Uber in my state. I do not want to be an employee.


people in NY and CA don't need or want your MA vote



The Entomologist said:


> *Uber and Lyft's efforts to restrict when & where drivers can work undercuts claims of a hands-off relationship with workers, observers say.*
> *By Noah Manskar, Patch Staff
> Sep 27, 2019 9:57 am ET | Updated Sep 27, 2019 12:03 pm ET*
> 
> ...


on January 1st, when Uber gets sued for not classifying drivers as employees, shit is really going to get real for them

yeah, just keep lying through your teeth until then, Uber

Dennis Herrera is going to want to get the ball rolling before the ballot initiative gets on the ballot


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

uberdriverfornow said:


> people in NY and CA don't need or want your MA vote


Silly comment, of course they don't. But this is what happens when the government forces companies with low skilled jobs to pay them more than they are worth. Uber is not a career choice, just like McD's isn't either.

Cost is always passed on to consumer or jobs are eliminated. Hence what we have in NY, jobs are being eliminated to absorb the government interference. This should not come as a shock, you wanted it NY, now deal with it.


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

Ssgcraig said:


> Silly comment, of course they don't. But this is what happens when the government forces companies with low skilled jobs to pay them more than they are worth. Uber is not a career choice, just like McD's isn't either.
> 
> Cost is always passed on to consumer or jobs are eliminated. Hence what we have in NY, jobs are being eliminated to absorb the government interference. This should not come as a shock, you wanted it NY, now deal with it.


they're not going to just deal with it, they are going to do something about it....that way people that work, actually can make enough money to live on

the good thing is that cutting off the ability of drivers to go online, proves yet again that Uber and Lyft are not just technology companies and are not just middlemen that don't control drivers "flexibility" to go online when they want


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

uberdriverfornow said:


> they're not going to just deal with it, they are going to do something about it....that way people that work, actually can make enough money to live on
> 
> the good thing is that cutting off the ability of drivers to go online, proves yet again that Uber and Lyft are not just technology companies and are not just middlemen that don't control drivers "flexibility" to go online when they want


I agree that they are not just a tech company. That's the biggest BS line I have heard since Warren told us that it won't cost Americans anymore for Medicare for all.

I hear this phrase a lot, "make enough money to live on". In New York city, is minimum wage enough to live off? Serious question. Here $11 an hour it's hard to live off, but of course you can make it happen.

Uber is a low skilled job that currently pays more than minimum wage where I live. It's very attractive. Once the government interferes, that attractiveness may disappear as Uber may raise the entrance qualification from having a pulse to much more stricter qualifications. If there is oversaturation of drivers, easiest way to correct that is to raise the quality of the driver, quality of the vehicles. Oh, limit the amount of drivers on the platform? Good luck being an employee.


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## GoldenGoji (Apr 30, 2018)

One thing I learned about working for Uber is *NEVER *trust Uber.


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## Uber_Yota_916 (May 1, 2017)

Ssgcraig said:


> This is what happens when the government forces it's way into it. NY is the first, next will be CA. I will not vote for any politician that feels the need to overregulate Uber in my state. I do not want to be an employee.


Once AB5 goes live every other state will follow. Medical Marijuana started the dominoes falling. Same for ride share.


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

Drivers should Never expect to earn anything more than Low Wages for a No Skill Gig.




uberdriverfornow said:


> they're not going to just deal with it, they are going to do something about it....that way people that work, actually can make enough money to live on
> 
> the good thing is that cutting off the ability of drivers to go online, proves yet again that Uber and Lyft are not just technology companies and are not just middlemen that don't control drivers "flexibility" to go online when they want


Thx U @uberdriverfornow for the example of The *Dunning*-*Kruger effect*

a cognitive bias in which people mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. It is related to the cognitive bias of ?illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability.?


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## uber_trooper (Apr 16, 2018)

Greed got these companies where they are now. Nothing more. Had they not changed the pay structure - meaning had they not eliminated the surge multiplier, boost and meaningful quest to fill the investors’ pockets - AND regulated the number of drivers allowed to sign up at any given time, we would not be here today.

And safe driving IS a skill.


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## VanGuy (Feb 15, 2019)

I think what they're doing in NYC makes sense. If I was a building contractor and I had various trades subcontractors under me, I wouldn't take everyone that just walked onsite, I'd take what I needed for the job and nothing more.


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## Cold Fusion (Aug 28, 2019)

VanGuy said:


> I think what they're doing in NYC makes sense. If I was a building contractor and I had various trades subcontractors under me, I wouldn't take everyone that just walked onsite, I'd take what I needed for the job and nothing more.


Uber only takes from those that agree to use Their App


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Ssgcraig said:


> This is what happens when the government forces it's way into it. NY is the first, next will be CA. I will not vote for any politician that feels the need to overregulate Uber in my state. I do not want to be an employee.


The govt ALREADY "forced" their way into it by allowing perpetually high rates of Third World immigration into this country.

Uncle Sam has effectively given these scumbag companies a virtually limitless supply of new drivers on a silver platter.

Govt helped create this mess and only govt has the power to solve it.



uber_trooper said:


> Greed got these companies where they are now. Nothing more. Had they not changed the pay structure - meaning had they not eliminated the surge multiplier, boost and meaningful quest to fill the investors' pockets - AND regulated the number of drivers allowed to sign up at any given time, we would not be here today.
> 
> And safe driving IS a skill.


Pay me taxi rates, period.

As far as I'm concerned, you can keep all of your surges, boosts, quests, and other gimmicks that were created as a SUBSTITUTE for decent pay rates.

Being paid taxi rates beats the living shit out of ALL of those "promotions" and "incentives".


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

You all WANT U/L to be your safety net when you business is in the crapper! You are self employed, ACT like it! Why shouldn't Uber in NY not allow drivers to sign in? They HAVE to pay them minimum wage the SECOND the app is on and with little demand at that time, why would they ALLOW themselves to be bilked for no production? Grow up. Get a real job. stop blaming u/l for YOUR problems.


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

The Entomologist said:


> "I think it's rotten and self-serving and hypocritical and exposes the lie at the heart of their business model," said City Council Member Brad Lander, who sponsored the legislation mandating the city's minimum-pay rules at the heart of the debate.
> 
> "When it's good for them, they want to say their drivers are independent contractors who have flexibility and set their own hours and should be treated not as employees but independent contractors," added Lander, a Brooklyn Democrat. "But when they want to exercise control over their drivers in order to save themselves money, they don't hesitate to do it."


Save money? Did nothing more than force Uber/Lyft to have adequate drivers to meet demand. And not over saturate with drivers when demand wasn't there. Because they certainly don't care if a driver is just sitting around idle without a ride as it isn't costing them money. Now, the City forced them to ensure supply is equal to demand. And the chumps that voted for the law cry that Uber/Lyft have to adjust their models because they adjusted their model to meet the new laws?



uberdriverfornow said:


> the good thing is that cutting off the ability of drivers to go online, proves yet again that Uber and Lyft are not just technology companies and are not just middlemen that don't control drivers "flexibility" to go online when they want


Dude. Everyone with half a brain towards business and basic supply and demand knew this would happen.

What is your proposal?


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

The people in NY and now CA wanted to have the safety net of a base hourly wage. If those people can't make a living as independent contractors they needed to quit driving LONG before the sate and federal government got involved. I really hope they don't force this on other states because some of us VERY part timers that drive bar hours are quite happy as it is now. I don't want to be forced to drive at forced times, be limited on being able to go on the app, or where to drive. I have too many rules for my "real" job. I don't want any for a part time gig. These 2 states got EXACTLY what the drivers got! Screwed over! Stop crying! You have no one to blame but yourselves.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

The thing about all this is if they just kept paying us 70% and quit with the games none of this would have happened. But no they got greedy and started putting drivers in poverty so the government is beginning to step in. I found it ridiculous that as Lyft was trying to fight AB5 they were cutting rates to as low as 30 cents a mile in some areas.


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

Their is another side if your opinion. First u/l NEVER made this out to be a full time job for anyone. They intended it to be part time cash or something till you found another job. Period. Based on this, people decided to make it something it isnt intended for. Now they are angry cause they cant take care of their family like a full time job would. So these people need to stop crying and get a real job. Additionally people want taxi rates. Taxi cabs are regulated a hell of allot more so people that believe they are worth that rate are not living in the real world. This is a budget ride. Nothing more. People pay for that cheap ride and you take it. Now I agree u/l take to much for their part. But at the end of the day. Your not a limo, taxi or shuttle service. Your a shlub doing rides on the cheap.


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

Fat Man said:


> Their is another side if your opinion. First u/l NEVER made this out to be a full time job for anyone. They intended it to be part time cash or something till you found another job. Period. Based on this, people decided to make it something it isnt intended for. Now they are angry cause they cant take care of their family like a full time job would. So these people need to stop crying and get a real job. Additionally people want taxi rates. Taxi cabs are regulated a hell of allot more so people that believe they are worth that rate are not living in the real world. This is a budget ride. Nothing more. People pay for that cheap ride and you take it. Now I agree u/l take to much for their part. But at the end of the day. Your not a limo, taxi or shuttle service. Your a shlub doing rides on the cheap.


BAH. You are ignorant (note this isn't the same as calling you stupid and is not an insult. It simply means you don't know what you are talking about) I recall all sorts of ads on Craigslist and elsewhere saying things like "Make $2,000 a week!". And there were all sorts of bonuses and things which required one basically be full time. Even the onboarding bonus required 100 rides in 30 days or such. Both companies DEFINITELY encouraged drivers to be full time *and they still do*. Look at the way the rentals are structured with requiring a certain amount of rides. Look at the current reward programs! Make 400 points to be "Gold", etc.

I really do think you should take it down a notch or two with your "stop crying and get a real job" rhetoric then because you seem not to know very much about this and are perhaps speaking a bit too loudly and boldly...

PS- It really doesn't matter if one is full or part time. Even a part timer isn't going to want to sit out there for one $3 ride per hour. Also think about it: If no one drives during the non-peak times then the companies will fail because riders won't be able to get rides during these times and so the service won't seem reliable. Quit following the anti-labor mindset and see that the companies need full timers and they know it (thus almost all the incentives and bonuses being aimed at full time drivers). We're not a bunch of entitled bums because we do full time rideshare. Many of us probably work twice as much and as hard as you do.


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

DriverMark said:


> Save money? Did nothing more than force Uber/Lyft to have adequate drivers to meet demand. And not over saturate with drivers when demand wasn't there. Because they certainly don't care if a driver is just sitting around idle without a ride as it isn't costing them money. Now, the City forced them to ensure supply is equal to demand. And the chumps that voted for the law cry that Uber/Lyft have to adjust their models because they adjusted their model to meet the new laws?
> 
> Dude. Everyone with half a brain towards business and basic supply and demand knew this would happen.
> 
> What is your proposal?


deactivate the latest drivers to join and those that don't drive much to ensure that the drivers that actually try to make an actual living from driving can


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

uberdriverfornow said:


> deactivate the latest drivers to join and those that don't drive much to ensure that the drivers that actually try to make an actual living from driving can


Let me guess, you conveniently and coincedentally do not fall into these categories? LOL


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

Taxi2Uber said:


> Let me guess, you conveniently and coincedentally do not fall into these categories? LOL


let's see......been driving for 4 years......drives 40 hours a week....and most importantly I'm in CA not NY


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

uber_trooper said:


> Greed got these companies where they are now. Nothing more. Had they not changed the pay structure - meaning had they not eliminated the surge multiplier, boost and meaningful quest to fill the investors' pockets - AND regulated the number of drivers allowed to sign up at any given time, we would not be here today.
> 
> And safe driving IS a skill.


I like how they say their maps showing high demand are to help drivers know where to go so they can work.

How about the old surge map? I thought that was what that did?

I can see newbies chasing the "busy area" like we used to tell folks "don't chase the surge." Can you imagine going to the busy spot (as per uber/Lyft) only to find you still can't go online? (Because other drivers did the same.) Worse than chasing a surge that goes away...



uberdriverfornow said:


> deactivate the latest drivers to join and those that don't drive much to ensure that the drivers that actually try to make an actual living from driving can


All they need to do it stop signing up new drivers. Attrition will take care of it


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> I like how they say their maps showing high demand are to help drivers know where to go so they can work.
> 
> How about the old surge map? I thought that was what that did?
> 
> ...


they did cap drivers and vehicles already


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

Lol does someone need a hug or what? Bro your just pissed cause your business is in the crapper. Your belief that your entitled to something other than opprotunity is hilarious. News flash. Your not. So ya put your big girl britches on and get a real job.



uberdriverfornow said:


> let's see......been driving for 4 years......drives 40 hours a week....and most importantly I'm in CA not NY


Wow I bet it sux to be u right about now. But you dem's ALL believe in a hand out! Surfs up bra... give me a break.


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## Wonkytonk (Jan 28, 2018)

uberdriverfornow said:


> deactivate the latest drivers to join and those that don't drive much to ensure that the drivers that actually try to make an actual living from driving can


Actually:

Stop hiring new drivers, and allow drivers on based on seniority on the platform. The longer you've been driving the better your odds of being allowed to drive, but since they lose most of their drivers within a short period drivers who've been around longer are almost assured to be allowed to drive when ever they want, and frankly that's how it should be. It's the most fair solution, and actually rewards drivers for their longevity.


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

:thumbdown:That isn't how being SELF EMPLOYED works. Being self employed means you have to compete for business. It is the bases of a free market and enterprise. What your talking about is seniority. Seniority COMES with being a EMPLOYEE. Your not a EMPLOYEE. Lets hope it doesn't make that past CA and NY. You are self employed and if you can't compete with EVERYONE... YOU need to stop driving! You asked for this. It's time to except it if your in CA or NY like I think you are. You WILL become a employee, YOU WILL have a supervisor that tells you when to drive, where to drive, performance reviews and ride with you to evaluate your performance just like all company employees have. YOU want a minimum wage, YOU gotta except the down side. A 23 year old DB supervisor telling you what to do and where to do it. SUX to be you bro! :laugh:


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## touberornottouber (Aug 12, 2016)

Fat Man said:


> Lol does someone need a hug or what? Bro your just pissed cause your business is in the crapper. Your belief that your entitled to something other than opprotunity is hilarious. News flash. Your not. So ya put your big girl britches on and get a real job.
> 
> 
> Wow I bet it sux to be u right about now. But you dem's ALL believe in a hand out! Surfs up bra... give me a break.


https://www.kaplaninternational.com/blog/your-vs-youre-grammar-comics-2


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## ubergrind (May 23, 2017)

Fat Man said:


> :thumbdown:That isn't how being SELF EMPLOYED works. Being self employed means you have to compete for business. It is the bases of a free market and enterprise. What your talking about is seniority. Seniority COMES with being a EMPLOYEE. Your not a EMPLOYEE. Lets hope it doesn't make that past CA and NY. You are self employed and if you can't compete with EVERYONE... YOU need to stop driving! You asked for this. It's time to except it if your in CA or NY like I think you are. You WILL become a employee, YOU WILL have a supervisor that tells you when to drive, where to drive, performance reviews and ride with you to evaluate your performance just like all company employees have. YOU want a minimum wage, YOU gotta except the down side. A 23 year old DB supervisor telling you what to do and where to do it. SUX to be you bro! :laugh:


It's always interesting to see when people start making the free market argument about rideshare. If Uber/Lyft are truly marketplaces, why can't I see the job details and determine if the trip works for my schedule since it's supposedly gig/ contract labor?

I do agree that not everyone is cut out for this work and those that hustle, get strategic, and figure this out should be rewarded. The people that can't figure it out should find something else to do. With that being said, rideshare is the Taxi industry 2.0. They are just using a different method to dispatch trips and match riders with drivers. There are still operational and replacement cost that need to be calculated into ever trip just like they are in the taxi industry. The rate cuts have essentially nullified both and now the driver is only being paid for his/her time.

In my opinion, the argument of employee/contractor is making everyone lose focus on what the real problem actually is. Driver's are subsidizing the true cost of a ride in the form of their vehicles equity, while we help undercut the taxi industry and allow these companies build towards a self driving future.

Unfortunately, these ride share companies are only focused on their business goals and rarely do the needs to the driver's align with that of the company. They have had plenty of time to raise the rates and fairly compensate the drivers, so if government intervention is the only way to make it happen, I am all for it.

Last thought, contractors (which I have done contract work professionally before) you are compensated at a higher rate precisely because you have to carry more cost like benefits which are higher as an individual than as a group. If anything, the rates should be higher than a taxi since you do not get any efficiencies from doing things in mass v the individual level. Not to mention a taxi cab would not come to your house in the suburbs 17 mins away and wait for you to go down and back to the 711 for some smokes.


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

Bro I am going to make it simple. If you don't like what they offer you don't have to do it. You are NOT entitled to SQAT! This is NOT the taxi 2.0 as you put it. Taxi's are scrutinized a hell of allot harder and you have to go get a special license to drive THEIR car. Yes THEIR car... the car that they take care of all repairs on. I believe there should be "something" given to a driver for ware and tare on their vehicle. HOWEVER, I agreed to non of that just like you did. Again you are self employed. Their is no safety nets. Again Big boy pants need to come on and stop sniveling which you are doing honestly. You (and the rest of the entitled generation) throw temper tantrums when you feel like its unfair. Life is unfair. Life is rough. I believe they should pay better. Will I cry and say I am entitled to more from U/L? NO. I MAKE MY OWN WAY. As long as I drive I HAVE to drive by their rules. SO do you.



touberornottouber said:


> BAH. You are ignorant (note this isn't the same as calling you stupid and is not an insult. It simply means you don't know what you are talking about) I recall all sorts of ads on Craigslist and elsewhere saying things like "Make $2,000 a week!". And there were all sorts of bonuses and things which required one basically be full time. Even the onboarding bonus required 100 rides in 30 days or such. Both companies DEFINITELY encouraged drivers to be full time *and they still do*. Look at the way the rentals are structured with requiring a certain amount of rides. Look at the current reward programs! Make 400 points to be "Gold", etc.
> 
> I really do think you should take it down a notch or two with your "stop crying and get a real job" rhetoric then because you seem not to know very much about this and are perhaps speaking a bit too loudly and boldly...
> 
> PS- It really doesn't matter if one is full or part time. Even a part timer isn't going to want to sit out there for one $3 ride per hour. Also think about it: If no one drives during the non-peak times then the companies will fail because riders won't be able to get rides during these times and so the service won't seem reliable. Quit following the anti-labor mindset and see that the companies need full timers and they know it (thus almost all the incentives and bonuses being aimed at full time drivers). We're not a bunch of entitled bums because we do full time rideshare. Many of us probably work twice as much and as hard as you do.


The one thing I am not is ignorant. You need to stop holding your hand out for MORE that your NOT entitled to! Your a big kid now. Your business. Make it or not. Its ALL UP TO YOU! Time to realize the man isn't going to do squat to make your life easier just cause you through a temper tantrum like you all are. All you leaches that think you DESERVE more, better, just cause you think so. Makes me laugh. Earn your way like the rest of us had to! Grow a pair and learn life isn't going to be your way all the time!


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

ubergrind said:


> It's always interesting to see when people start making the free market argument about rideshare. If Uber/Lyft are truly marketplaces, why can't I see the job details and determine if the trip works for my schedule since it's supposedly gig/ contract labor?
> 
> I do agree that not everyone is cut out for this work and those that hustle, get strategic, and figure this out should be rewarded. The people that can't figure it out should find something else to do. With that being said, rideshare is the Taxi industry 2.0. They are just using a different method to dispatch trips and match riders with drivers. There are still operational and replacement cost that need to be calculated into ever trip just like they are in the taxi industry. The rate cuts have essentially nullified both and now the driver is only being paid for his/her time.
> 
> ...


pay no attention to that fat_man Uber shill

everything you said is common sense except for the SDC part

SDC's will never work

it's physically impossible


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

Ummmm funny people try to dismiss someone when they clearly are right. But am I right? I dont know... their are so many of you bottom feeders looking for a handout these days makes me think that maybe I should join in with the entitled to something more for doing nothing. Then I remember that isn't real talk. Handouts maybe your bag but I wanna sleep at night. I probably will see you with a cardboard sign next. Same thinh


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

touberornottouber said:


> https://www.kaplaninternational.com/blog/your-vs-youre-grammar-comics-2


I am with you on the grammar thing.
But the truth is it is a waste of time.
Ignorant people are happy being ignorant.

Most 3rd graders know the difference between:
You're and Your
Accept and Except
Wear and Tear vs Ware and Tare
Through and Throw
A Lot vs Allot
There and Their

I am surprised he didn't say:
Life is UnFare.


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

My grammar may suck. But I am grateful i am not a doush bag bottom feeder. Bro I hope you spell I want a hand out properly on your cardboard sign.


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## Asificarewhatyoudontthink (Jul 6, 2017)

Steve appleby said:


> Well that's what democrats like to do.. regulate, regulate, regulate.
> 
> Sometimes you just have to laugh at people when they make an idiotic argument and still stand by their argument when they know their wrong


Right, so limiting the number of ants on the road competing for the rides...it's a bad idea in your minds (those of you thinking its wrong)?
This is like the farmers supporting Trump as China, their biggest customer, continues to just shop elsewhere for the crops they need...
You are arguing against your best intrest and don't even get it.


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

I just think idiots that believe they deserve when they dont are much worse than the BS we endure from goober. Do I believe we have earned more of the pie... yes. Do I believe we are entitled to it. No. I think bottom feeders like these db's deserve nothing.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Fat Man said:


> Ummmm funny people try to dismiss someone when they clearly are right. But am I right? I dont know... their are so many of you bottom feeders looking for a handout these days makes me think that maybe I should join in with the entitled to something more for doing nothing. Then I remember that isn't real talk. Handouts maybe your bag but I wanna sleep at night. I probably will see you with a cardboard sign next. Same thinh





Fat Man said:


> Bro I am going to make it simple. If you don't like what they offer you don't have to do it. You are NOT entitled to SQAT! This is NOT the taxi 2.0 as you put it. Taxi's are scrutinized a hell of allot harder and you have to go get a special license to drive THEIR car. Yes THEIR car... the car that they take care of all repairs on. I believe there should be "something" given to a driver for ware and tare on their vehicle. HOWEVER, I agreed to non of that just like you did. Again you are self employed. Their is no safety nets. Again Big boy pants need to come on and stop sniveling which you are doing honestly. You (and the rest of the entitled generation) throw temper tantrums when you feel like its unfair. Life is unfair. Life is rough. I believe they should pay better. Will I cry and say I am entitled to more from U/L? NO. I MAKE MY OWN WAY. As long as I drive I HAVE to drive by their rules. SO do you.
> 
> 
> The one thing I am not is ignorant. You need to stop holding your hand out for MORE that your NOT entitled to! Your a big kid now. Your business. Make it or not. Its ALL UP TO YOU! Time to realize the man isn't going to do squat to make your life easier just cause you through a temper tantrum like you all are. All you leaches that think you DESERVE more, better, just cause you think so. Makes me laugh. Earn your way like the rest of us had to! Grow a pair and learn life isn't going to be your way all the time!


OMG, can you please get some sort of grammar/spell check? Your posts are giving me a headache.


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

Nope. Fu*k you. If you dont like it. Piss up a rope

???


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Fuzzyelvis said:


> OMG, can you please get some sort of grammar/spell check? Your posts are giving me a headache.


It's a lost cause.
He is fat and happy being ignorant.


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## Polomarko (Dec 20, 2016)

Ssgcraig said:


> This is what happens when the government forces it's way into it. NY is the first, next will be CA. I will not vote for any politician that feels the need to overregulate Uber in my state. I do not want to be an employee.


Yes exactly, U/L must play the same rules as all others in this industry. U/L are transportation company and must follow the TNC regulations. If U/L think something is not ok, follow democratic rules and procedure and try to change it!


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

????


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Wonkytonk said:


> Actually:
> 
> Stop hiring new drivers, and allow drivers on based on seniority on the platform. The longer you've been driving the better your odds of being allowed to drive, but since they lose most of their drivers within a short period drivers who've been around longer are almost assured to be allowed to drive when ever they want, and frankly that's how it should be. It's the most fair solution, and actually rewards drivers for their longevity.


That's one argument.
But seniority is not really a good measure.
Better, for Uber at least, to measure by performance, profitability.
Why "punish" the up and comer go-getter, because some long timer cherrypicker has seniority.
Also, Uber could dump the longhaulers to increase profits.
$20 ride.
Driver A takes direct route and earns $10, Uber get $10.
Driver B takes long route and earns $15. Uber gets $5.
If you were Uber, would you want Driver A or B?


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

Fat Man said:


> Ummmm funny people try to dismiss someone when they clearly are right. But am I right? I dont know... their are so many of you bottom feeders looking for a handout these days makes me think that maybe I should join in with the entitled to something more for doing nothing. Then I remember that isn't real talk. Handouts maybe your bag but I wanna sleep at night. I probably will see you with a cardboard sign next. Same thinh


it's one thing to be entitled, but there is clearly a whole other thing to just accept your fate as you say.. UBER AND LYFT both are new age PONZI schemes and they have been constantly beating down the one asset that keeps them afloat for years... Well KARMAS a ***** and eventually they will get thiers.. these whiners your complaining about are actually business owners tired of being stepped on again and again.... Nothing to do with whining...just finally getting to the point that enough is enough and it's time for U/L to do the right thing for once and pay thier EMPLOYEES that they have treated as such forever while lying to thier faces telling them they are IC's while not letting them control that business as such.... It's gone on long enough and the fat lady is singing... Change is around the corner... But hey if you'd rather cower in your car and "make it work" than please do while the rest of us work on making a positive change in a business that hasn't seen anything like a positive change since inception.

And that's my 2 cents, nope didn't whine once and I'm not entitled but I do deserve to be paid for my hard work.


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## Wonkytonk (Jan 28, 2018)

Taxi2Uber said:


> That's one argument.
> But seniority is not really a good measure.
> Better, for Uber at least, to measure by performance, profitability.
> Why "punish" the up and comer go-getter, because some long timer cherrypicker has seniority.
> ...


Absolutely not.

Why punish the senior driver because some new guy wants to drive?

If drivers are working within the app parameters then seniority on the platform should be the deciding factor.

If Uber doesn't like that those drivers are acting like the independent contractors Uber claims they are they can change the terms of the app and force them to take unprofitable rides and thus reveal themselves as the liars they are about the independent contractor status of drivers.

Why should drivers suffer because Uber love bombs new drivers with choice money making rides which would put those drivers at the head of profitability numbers. That would be completely unfair to long term drivers.



Dekero said:


> .. these whiners your complaining about are actually business owners tired of being stepped on again and again.... Nothing to do with whining...just finally getting to the point that enough is enough and it's time for U/L to do the right thing for once and pay thier EMPLOYEES that they have treated as such forever while lying to thier faces telling them they are IC's while not letting them control that business as such....


I like the way you put that.


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## kevin92009 (Sep 11, 2016)

GoldenGoji said:


> One thing I learned about working for Uber is *NEVER *trust Uber.


exactly !


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

Wonkytonk said:


> Absolutely not.
> 
> Why punish the senior driver because some new guy wants to drive?
> 
> ...


If the long term driver is a good performer, then there would be no reason to punish him.
Its not an automatic out with the old, in with the new, proposition.
But why reward a long term driver just because he signed up awhile ago.
That is more unfair than basing it on performance.
What if that senior driver is a slacker after years of grinding, and has a 4.7 rating and a 5% acceptance rate. 
It would stand to reason that Uber would want a better performing driver, old or new.
Especially true when it's in an employee situation or a minimum wage situation.
Even in an IC situation, Uber can still choose not to utilize you at all.


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

Uber and Lyft are lying cheating scum who stole their position in an industry and their day of reckoning has arrived.


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## Wonkytonk (Jan 28, 2018)

Taxi2Uber said:


> If the long term driver is a good performer, then there would be no reason to punish him.


First thank you for acknowledging that Uber punishes its drivers it's nice to know that's not a point of contention here.

Uber's metric for performance are not now nor would they be in the future in the favor of drivers their partners only solely in their interests.

That does not a partnership make and therefore their metrics should in no way be considered. So long as the riders receive rides that's all that matters if some aren't allow the next in line in order of seniority online to drive. Problem fixed.


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## MiamiKid (May 24, 2016)

Ssgcraig said:


> This is what happens when the government forces it's way into it. NY is the first, next will be CA. I will not vote for any politician that feels the need to overregulate Uber in my state. I do not want to be an employee.


Spot on. ?


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

Ssgcraig said:


> This is what happens when the government forces it's way into it. NY is the first, next will be CA. I will not vote for any politician that feels the need to overregulate Uber in my state. I do not want to be an employee.


I understand you not wanting to be an employee I share your sentiments.
What are the rates where you drive?
Would you still be in favor of no government regulations if U/L cut the rates in half?


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## CaptainToo (Dec 5, 2017)

GoldenGoji said:


> One thing I learned about working for Uber is *NEVER *trust Uber.


One thing I have learned over fifty years of working, is never trust the state and the ability of its regulations to produce the most unpleasant forms of unintended consequences.


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## dnlbaboof (Nov 13, 2015)

Ny and ca had the best rates in the nation. There was no need for this......this passed bc of nutjob politicians who want likes and clicks and really lazy drivers who want to make min wage with just having the app on at home eating bon bons while giving no rides.


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## The Entomologist (Sep 23, 2018)

VanGuy said:


> I think what they're doing in NYC makes sense. If I was a building contractor and I had various trades subcontractors under me, I wouldn't take everyone that just walked onsite, I'd take what I needed for the job and nothing more.


I sincerely hope they aren't going to attempt schedules under the pretense that there is no business, we are all UNDER contract the second we signed and one of the obligations from both companies is to provide work while not limiting the ability to log in.

If they want to do it right, they will have to cull the army of drivers currently at their disposal to the point it fits demand... then create a waiting list for sign ups ala amazon and control things that way, they have a vast array of drivers waiting in line at their disposal, that would be scheduling employees, I mean if it were that easy, everyone would do that with contractors and have lines of workers at their disposal, Uber's driver army is gone and will now have to be micro managed.

If they they go on ahead with schedules not only will drivers be able to sue them, the gov will take it as full employment proof.

Meh, either way, who cares... I'll soon quit! 800 a day doing this crap is nothing compared to what I have coming with amazon but I have my retirement present ready for both Uber and Lyft this Xmas, while most misbehaving kids get coal, they will get the equivalent of radioactive materials instead, hammering another nail in the coffin.


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## uberdriverfornow (Jan 10, 2016)

Taxi2Uber said:


> That's one argument.
> But seniority is not really a good measure.
> Better, for Uber at least, to measure by performance, profitability.
> Why "punish" the up and comer go-getter, because some long timer cherrypicker has seniority.
> ...


lol says the taxi driver working behind medallions that limit the amount of drivers on the road



Taxi2Uber said:


> If the long term driver is a good performer, then there would be no reason to punish him.
> Its not an automatic out with the old, in with the new, proposition.
> But why reward a long term driver just because he signed up awhile ago.
> That is more unfair than basing it on performance.
> ...


you reward the long time driver because he signed up a long time ago


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## Taxi2Uber (Jul 21, 2017)

uberdriverfornow said:


> lol says the taxi driver working behind medallions that limit the amount of drivers on the road


*EX*-taxi driver.


uberdriverfornow said:


> you reward the long time driver because he signed up a long time ago


Sorry, not good enough.
Let me guess, does that describe YOU? LOL
Everything positive you think should happen, conveniently and coincidentally applies to YOU and YOUR situation, and not for any "greater good" for all drivers. 
Gee, how about that. LOL

I was against seniority, even back when it meant something in my early days driving a cab.

I was good, driving circles around these unambitious "old timers", producing double what these guys brought in, watching them get the nice cars and good shifts and why, just because they were hired years before me?
The bosses eventually figured it out, and changed it to the good performers getting the perks, and seniority meant very little,

Over the years, now I'm the long time driver, and I now ran circles around the new guys, and was rewarded with the nice cars and good shifts, not because of seniority, but for my performing at a high level and high profitability, *as it should be*.


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## Aneed Momoney (Apr 3, 2017)

Steve appleby said:


> Well that's what democrats like to do.. regulate, regulate, regulate.
> 
> Sometimes you just have to laugh at people when they make an idiotic argument and still stand by their argument when they know *their* wrong


 Do you speak English?


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

The Entomologist said:


> *Uber and Lyft's efforts to restrict when & where drivers can work undercuts claims of a hands-off relationship with workers, observers say.*
> *By Noah Manskar, Patch Staff
> Sep 27, 2019 9:57 am ET | Updated Sep 27, 2019 12:03 pm ET*
> 
> ...


" Freedoms just another word for
Nothing left to lose" . . .


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

Uber_Yota_916 said:


> Once AB5 goes live every other state will follow. Medical Marijuana started the dominoes falling. Same for ride share.


I am not so sure on that, it's a cash cow for the States and the taxi industry. I think AB5 will do more harm than good.



GoldenGoji said:


> One thing I learned about working for Uber is *NEVER *trust Uber.


Also, never trust the government.


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## Diamondraider (Mar 13, 2017)

Fat Man said:


> You all WANT U/L to be your safety net when you business is in the crapper! You are self employed, ACT like it! Why shouldn't Uber in NY not allow drivers to sign in? They HAVE to pay them minimum wage the SECOND the app is on and with little demand at that time, why would they ALLOW themselves to be bilked for no production? Grow up. Get a real job. stop blaming u/l for YOUR problems.


You all asked for this. Praying the rest of the country preserves the IC relationship


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## Ssgcraig (Jul 8, 2015)

ubergrind said:


> In my opinion, the argument of employee/contractor is making everyone lose focus on what the real problem actually is. Driver's are subsidizing the true cost of a ride in the form of their vehicles equity, while we help undercut the taxi industry and allow these companies build towards a self driving future.


Don't forget, every ride in the US has a percentage of the fare go to the taxi industry because.... they failed.


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## Fat Man (May 17, 2019)

Bro you need help! Anyone that believes this is MORE than FAST PART TIME CASH are the ignorant one! I am serious, anyone banking on this rigged app to support a family on is just plain reckless. We ALL know U/L gig is rigged in THEIR favor. We ALL knew it when we signed up but decided for WHATEVER ridicules reason to do it anyway. Then for whatever reason some people thought it was a good idea to do this full time and hang their family's finances on a app. I know what U/L is doing is wrong. We all do. For whatever reason you CHOSE to make this your source of income and be self employed. This system is rigged against all of us just like the military and other jobs. IT is ALWAYS about the employer getting the big piece of the pie. The "MAN" always makes it off the little guys back. The American way! The difference is you can hang your hat on a hourly/salary job and your choosing to hang yours on a rigged app that will NEVER give anyone more than what THEY decide to give. To think that you can have both (self employment & a guaranteed wage) ways is not only ignorant but playing Russian Roulette with their family's stability. This will not EVER be a way to support a family. They are fighting this hourly wage thing and WILL continue to do so. They may lose and have to give it to you. But believe me you will be held accountable and have a schedule and route to cover when you become their employee. It ruins it for the rest of us that know this is just fast part time cash.


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