# When did you notice a decrease in tips?



## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

And when did your warehouse open?

UCA1 opened in October 2016, and I didn't start doing this full time until January 2017; tips were *great *up until about a month ago when one week they suddenly started going to shit consistently and haven't gone back up. I figured it was the same customers ordering and not wanting to tip every single time they order (sometimes daily!), but i'd be interested to find out how long it took customers in other areas to stop tipping once your warehouse was up & going.


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## Basmati (Sep 14, 2014)

Amazon started applying a huge portion of my tips to my base wage about a month ago. Now there are many shifts where I don't receive any tips because of Amazon's "variable" pay scale.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

Basmati said:


> Amazon started applying a huge portion of my tips to my base wage about a month ago. Now there are many shifts where I don't receive any tips because of Amazon's "variable" pay scale.


I'm on the "variable pay" scale (actually I have been since I started this gig) where it shows $40-$54 per block including tips, but they still apply tips to each block separate block worked. are you saying they're not doing that for you?


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## Basmati (Sep 14, 2014)

After sending multiple emails to Amazon, it has become very apparent that they are using out tips and applying them to our variable pay. Many times they are applying all our tips to our base pay. All they are guaranteeing is that we will be paid at least $18 an hour after tips. For 4 out of my last 10 shifts, I only received a total of $18 an hour after tips were applied. Obviously a majority of the population didn't wake up one day and all of a sudden decided to forgo tipping completely.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

Basmati said:


> All they are guaranteeing is that we will be paid at least $18 an hour after tips. For 4 out of my last 10 shifts, I only received a total of $18 an hour after tips were applied.


lol sorry i'm so confused, isn't $18/hr. your base pay? because in that case, you got $0 in tips which has only happened to me once.


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## Basmati (Sep 14, 2014)

My point is I didn't get $0 in tips. I've tried emailing Amazon many times asking in various ways if I am receiving an $18 an hour base pay. Every time they reply with a canned response about variable rates but refuse to tell me what they are paying me per hour. 
They are using our tips to subsidize our pay. That is what is meant by "variable" rates. There is no way that all of a sudden a majority of people in Miami stopped tipping completely. If anything it would have been a gradual decline, not a drop off a cliff. 
Plain and simple, Amazon is not paying us an $18 base hourly any more.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

Basmati said:


> My point is I didn't get $0 in tips. I've tried emailing Amazon many times asking in various ways if I am receiving an $18 an hour base pay. Every time they reply with a canned response about variable rates but refuse to tell me what they are paying me per hour.
> They are using our tips to subsidize our pay. That is what is meant by "variable" rates. There is no way that all of a sudden a majority of people in Miami stopped tipping completely. If anything it would have been a gradual decline, not a drop off a cliff.
> Plain and simple, Amazon is not paying us an $18 base hourly any more.


how do you know 100% for a fact you made tips in that block? it's easy to assume Amazon is stealing money from us, but I also know there are a lot of cheap ****s out there that don't tip.

when did your warehouse open & when did you start noticing the change in tips?


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## uberer2016 (Oct 16, 2016)

Thats very strange because I still get decent tips at my warehouse. I dont think i've ever received zero tips from a block with delivery. Two 2-hr blocks on Saturday i got $52 and $58, which was a lot since i rarely get over the $50 estimated pay. I still think more deliveries mean more chance for tips. At least thats how it is at my warehouse.


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## Basmati (Sep 14, 2014)

The change happened about a month ago. One week all was fine, next week significantly less tips and it's been that way since. It's obvious what Amazon is doing. Just try emailing them and you will see. There might be a lot of cheap people out there but it is delusional to believe that from one week to the next that half the people in a region would completely stop tipping.



uberer2016 said:


> Thats very strange because I still get decent tips at my warehouse. I dont think i've ever received zero tips from a block with delivery. Two 2-hr blocks on Saturday i got $52 and $58, which was a lot since i rarely get over the $50 estimated pay. I still think more deliveries mean more chance for tips. At least thats how it is at my warehouse.


Warehouse are different. It is very possible your Warehouse hasnt implemented this yet. It is obvious in Miami tho, and everybody here knows it.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

uberer2016 said:


> I still think more deliveries mean more chance for tips. At least thats how it is at my warehouse.


that definitely used to be the case over here, but a couple of weeks ago I did a 9 stop route and made $7 total in tips .. *seven dollars!* that's not even $1 per stop. 



Basmati said:


> The change happened about a month ago. One week all was fine, next week significantly less tips and it's been that way since. It's obvious what Amazon is doing. Just try emailing them and you will see. There might be a lot of cheap people out there but it is delusional to believe that from one week to the next that half the people in a region would completely stop tipping.


but your point is this happened since they introduced variable base pay .. variable base pay has always been implemented since I started Flex.


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## Basmati (Sep 14, 2014)

soupergloo said:


> that definitely used to be the case over here, but a couple of weeks ago I did a 9 stop route and made $7 total in tips .. *seven dollars!* that's not even $1 per stop.


Because Amazon is applying tips to your variable rate. I challenge you to get a response from Amazon indicating what base rate they paid you for a particular shift.



soupergloo said:


> but your point is this happened since they introduced variable base pay .. variable base pay has always been implemented since I started Flex.


I'm not saying this has happened since they started variable pay. I'm saying that as of about a month ago they started applying our tips to our base pay, and they are using "variable" pay to justify it.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

Basmati said:


> Because Amazon is applying tips to your variable rate. I challenge you to get a response from Amazon indicating what base rate they paid you for a particular shift.


my base rate is $20/hr. or $40 for the block .. sometimes i'll make $40+ additional in tips since i've noticed the decrease, but it's definitely not as consistent as it was before. if they're stealing our tips by using this "base pay" crap, why not do it every time?


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## Basmati (Sep 14, 2014)

There is a whole other thread dedicated to this topic. It is also common knowledge at my Warehouse and many others. Just write them a few emails and I'm sure you will be convinced. No point continuing this thread.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

Basmati said:


> There is a whole other thread dedicated to this topic. It is also common knowledge at my Warehouse and many others. Just write them a few emails and I'm sure you will be convinced. No point continuing this thread.


lol i'm not contributing to the fact that Amazon is stealing tips, which is what the other thread is about. all i'm asking is when your warehouse opened and when you noticed the decrease in tips.


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## Basmati (Sep 14, 2014)

Everybody noticed the decrease about a month ago.


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## kmatt (Apr 25, 2016)

Talk about beating a dead horse ...


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

kmatt said:


> Talk about beating a dead horse with that chick...


.. way to contribute absolutely nothing to the thread


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## kmatt (Apr 25, 2016)

soupergloo said:


> .. way to contribute absolutely nothing to the thread


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## jester121 (Sep 6, 2016)

soupergloo said:


> .. way to contribute absolutely nothing to the thread


Way to contribute absolutely nothing by starting this thread....

amiright?


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## grams777 (Jun 13, 2014)

UTN1 - Nashville
Opened November 2015
Tips fell off a cliff about 1-2 months ago

It's doubtful that the customers just stopped tipping at the same time as variable base pay started - Especially after 1.5 years. I didn't even realize amazon changed anything. I stopped driving when it looked like people almost stopped tipping. I only figured out what was probabaly going on after reading the other thread on the forum some time later.

Also base pay is different that the minimum hourly guarantee. There has always been a variable hourly minimum. But it used to be Amazon had a fixed base pay equal to the hourly minimum (usually $18). It's like Uber and Lyft where the base fare is not the same thing as the minimum fare.

There's no realistic way to prove how much it is because amazon flat out refuses to provide a breakout. But they do admit the base pay recently changed and is now variable and that it used to be fixed at the same as the minimum hourly rate.

The only way to tell is by noticing what seems to be an otherwise unexplained general decline in 'tips'. To prove it one would have to find out how much was actually tipped and compare it.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

jester121 said:


> Way to contribute absolutely nothing by starting this thread....
> 
> amiright?


why reply then?! shit makes no sense


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## UberPasco (Oct 18, 2015)

Basmati said:


> There is a whole other thread dedicated to this topic. It is also common knowledge at my Warehouse and many others. Just write them a few emails and I'm sure you will be convinced. No point continuing this thread.


Not to be insensitive, but there are idiots everywhere. Just because they won't answer your question of "When did you stop beating your wife?" doesn't mean anything. You have not received ANY info that SUPPORTS this allegation, with the exception of anecdotes. Since I brought it up a few months ago, tipping takes a left turn occasionally. That is anecdotal evidence, Amazon answering a question about missing tips with a canned response about the difference in pay between $18-$25 is a non-sequitur.
Not a single tipped penny is "supplementing amazon"base rate". The RATE of tips has definitely fallen. I delivered to a guy last night who had ALWAYS tipped $20 , I told him how we really appreciate it and he said they had to cut back because they were ordering several times a week. So now he tries to batch his orders when he can. Anecdotal support for non nefarious dealings. Cuts both ways.


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## kmatt (Apr 25, 2016)

It might be interesting for us to ask to opt out of the variable based pay system and request the base pay plus tips again.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

here's why I don't think Amazon is stealing our tips. the circled amount was a $40 block + tips with 7 stops, so i'm assuming everyone left the tip in there with the exception of one person that decreased it to $2 .. why wouldn't Amazon take some from that route if they were really stealing tips?!


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## grams777 (Jun 13, 2014)

soupergloo said:


> here's why I don't think Amazon is stealing our tips. the circled amount was a $40 block + tips with 7 stops, so i'm assuming everyone left the tip in there with the exception of one person that decreased it to $2 .. why wouldn't Amazon take some from that route if they were really stealing tips?!


In that case for that block, the variable base is probably also $20 so amazon may actually be paying the minimum plus tips. Each warehouse and block can be different. It's all variable potentially. With no accounting there's no way to tell for sure.

Those numbers aren't too bad. If you start dropping toward $50-60 with a similar number of stops, that could be a problem.

Your warehouse blocks look completely different than ours. We can almost never get them like that in clean 2 hour blocks. So at least you're also getting paid for continuous time.

To get 8 hours here (if you're lucky) you start fishing around 6:30 am and your last delivery finishes around 6:30 pm with various sized blocks and gaps in between them. If it's slow grabbing blocks, it might take until near 11 pm to get 8 hours.

Recently here, 2 hour blocks declined to about $50, 3 hour blocks to about $75. They used to be about $65 for 2 and $100 for 3. So now for us 8 hours in block time makes about $200 gross with driving about 250 miles and taking 12-16 hours to do it. After car expenses and wasted time, it doesn't pan out with the lower hourly amounts.

If this were Uber, a single round trip Uber XL fare to where many of our blocks start would alone gross near $150. For whatever reason, flex deliveries here mostly go into the far reaches of the service area rather than the metropolitan area where most people live and uber rides are. It could be those deliveries that are mostly nearby are diverted to another group.

2 hour chained blocks at anywhere near $70 each are a much better situation.


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## jester121 (Sep 6, 2016)

kmatt said:


> It might be interesting for us to ask to opt out of the variable based pay system and request the base pay plus tips again.


Amazon's guaranteed reply: "No."

Your recourse: "Cancel my account."

There aren't any opportunities for in-depth negotiations in this contractual arrangement. Take it or leave it, there are throngs of unwashed masses just ready to tag in and take all our spots.


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## Basmati (Sep 14, 2014)

I just spoke to the leadership at my warehouse about the tips. I was flat out told that they are using the tips to subsidize the base hourly.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

Basmati said:


> I just spoke to the leadership at my warehouse about the tips. I was flat out told that they are using the tips to subsidize the base hourly.


no offense, but you're full of shit. no manager would be telling drivers that when it's still advertised as 100% of tips go to drivers.


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## Colie (Oct 18, 2016)

soupergloo said:


> no offense, but you're full of shit. no manager would be telling drivers that when it's still advertised as 100% of tips go to drivers.


In both of your defenses the tips are going to the drivers. The only difference is the base rate becoming variable instead of set at 18.


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## Rosio (Oct 16, 2016)

I always understood variable rate to include the times we get increased rate for whatever reason (rain, whatever). I noticed it over a month ago, about the same time they changed where the tip gets entered by the customer to be much more visible.


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## Basmati (Sep 14, 2014)

soupergloo said:


> no offense, but you're full of shit. no manager would be telling drivers that when it's still advertised as 100% of tips go to drivers.


Believe what you want. I really did have a conversation with leadership at my warehouse. They explained that we do get all the tips but the hourly is variable and they will often pay us less than $18 an hour. I have no reason to lie, but I understand some people are too bullheaded to accept the truth.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

Basmati said:


> Believe what you want. I really did have a conversation with leadership at my warehouse. They explained that we do get all the tips but the hourly is variable and they will often pay us less than $18 an hour. I have no reason to lie, but I understand some people are too bullheaded to accept the truth.


you've provided zero proof that anything you say regarding tips is true, why would anyone believe you?!

.. and why are you still responding to this thread.


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## Basmati (Sep 14, 2014)

Once again... why would lie? I have nothing to gain from it. Proof? Should I have asked him for a notarized letter or permission to record the conversation? Talk to your leadership, they might share the same info with you.


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## jester121 (Sep 6, 2016)

"Leadership".... you mean the hourly employees wandering around in vests, mostly screwing up routes and occasionally making an effort to keep drivers from running by amok exploiting the system all over the place?

Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb and propose that our Vested Overlords have no knowledge, understanding, or control of Amazon's pay policies for ICs. Just a hunch....

I have no clue who's right or wrong in this debate... but I'm also pretty sure they don't either.


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## UberPasco (Oct 18, 2015)

Rosio said:


> I always understood variable rate to include the times we get increased rate for whatever reason (rain, whatever). I noticed it over a month ago, about the same time they changed where the tip gets entered by the customer to be much more visible.


This is EXACTLY what they mean. But the demands to prove a negative still abound....



Basmati said:


> Believe what you want. I really did have a conversation with leadership at my warehouse. They explained that we do get all the tips but the hourly is variable and they will often pay us less than $18 an hour. I have no reason to lie, but I understand some people are too bullheaded to accept the truth.


Just for reference, we started a rumor as a joke among a few drivers about Amazon forcing drivers to choose between HW or WH , and 2 days later the head of our warehouse repeated it to the shift supervisor as "they haven't told us the date yet."


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## dirtylee (Sep 2, 2015)

Tip Crédit is a way to lower labor costs. 
The fact that it isn't preditactably standardized = different people massaging the numbers.


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## WMUber (Mar 22, 2016)

Basmati said:


> Once again... why would lie? I have nothing to gain from it. Proof? Should I have asked him for a notarized letter or permission to record the conversation? Talk to your leadership, they might share the same info with you.


State of Florida maximizes tip credit at $3.02 an hour. If you feel Amazon is taking more, report them to the Florida Department of Opportunity.


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## tooc (Apr 4, 2017)

I've been crushing tips lately on both prime now and restaurants... haven't noticed a significant drop-off. Nothing I can pinpoint anyway.


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

if Amazon were stealing our tips, why would they bother with this?


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## UberPasco (Oct 18, 2015)

soupergloo said:


> if Amazon were stealing our tips, why would they bother with this?


It's to _appear _that they aren't stealing tips! Because I know they are anyway and they admit it in an email I misunderstood!


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## soupergloo (Jul 24, 2015)

UberPasco said:


> It's to _appear _that they aren't stealing tips! Because I know they are anyway and they admit it in an email I misunderstood!


show me the email where they admit they're stealing our tips ..


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## UberPasco (Oct 18, 2015)

soupergloo said:


> show me the email where they admit they're stealing our tips ..


There isn't. But some guy said some guy in Miami said it was true, so there's that. Plus, there have been posts on Facebook. That is as good as being written in stone.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-n...e-claims-withheld-tips-delivery-worke-rcna244


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