# Contractor vs Employee ( I made new thread on purpose )



## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

Okay, Is we is, or is we isn't? I was leaning towards contractors for a moment, then took a definite sway the other way.

Uber is a Technology Company. As contractors we would rent Uber's product and use it independently from Uber. Uber would not be able to dictate equipment, hours, attire, conduct, or for that matter modify income without modification of the contract.

By modification of the riders fares Uber does not modify the percentage of our earnings but modifies the amount collected from our riders. Uber cannot have riders, they are a technology company. We are the transportation company and as we provide the service and Uber only provides the technology. Thus, the driver should be able to control the prices the service charged by the contractor.

One of the factors considered is: . The alleged employee’s opportunity for profit or loss depending on his or her managerial skill. Uber controls the rates which takes away our opportunity to profit or loss. SideCar allows the driver to set his own rates with the sidecar app, Uber doesn't.

And, one of the key Uber controls of the driver is the need for the rider not to pay tips. Uber can dictate employees not be tipped but cannot dictate the same for contractors.

So, Is we is, or is we isn't?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Worker Classification under IRS rules (see IRS Publication 1799) is not a black and white issue.
Where rulings have not been established, *it is up to the employer to determine proper worker classification*. As you note, 'control' (over a long list of worker and job related areas) is considered and weighed when the IRS and the courts consider the issue of employee vs independent contractor.

The laws governing Transportation Network Companies have yet to be written - as is always the case when technology creates an work environment and worker relationship that simply did not exists in the past. *You can file an SS-8 form with the IRS* requesting an 'opinion' as to whether a job description falls under the status of employee or independent contractor. But even that will only be 'advice' and not considered a final determination (and it will take 6 to 8 months to hear back from the IRS.

*As of today - no one can give you a definitive answer as to whether an Uber driver, under the law, is an independent contractor or an employee*. However, under the user agreement, drivers agree to be classified as independent contractors - so that's what they are right now... and will remain so, until a court of law rules otherwise (two cases are pending right now in federal courts: one in CA and one in MA).

This is where Uber is walking its thin line - trying to control drivers (as if they were employees) but considering them independent contractors for tax purposes so as to avoid liability for the work drivers do (huge!) and responsibility for payroll taxes and health insurance of employees.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Worker Classification under IRS rules (see IRS Publication 1799) is not a black and white issue.
> Where rulings have not been established, *it is up to the employer to determine proper worker classification*. As you note, 'control' (over a long list of worker and job related areas) is considered and weighed when the IRS and the courts consider the issue of employee vs independent contractor.
> 
> The laws governing Transportation Network Companies have yet to be written - as is always the case when technology creates an work environment and worker relationship that simply did not exists in the past. *You can file an SS-8 form with the IRS* requesting an 'opinion' as to whether a job description falls under the status of employee or independent contractor. But even that will only be 'advice' and not considered a final determination (and it will take 6 to 8 months to hear back from the IRS.
> ...


The problem with your explanation, as detailed as it may be, is this: it is false to claim this type of relationship did not exist. This is truly nothing new. Technology has existed for a long time. Brokers have existed for a long time. Contracted services have existed for a long time. Uber is trying to claim it is some new model, but all that is new is they are skirting existing laws which definitely can and should apply to them. Yes, a definitive answer CAN be given, based on existing laws. The question is: will it? This company has poured a LOT of money in to the right pockets. It may not get the proverbial "pee pee whacking" until government noticed its coffer is slowly being depleted


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## BlkGeep (Dec 7, 2014)

What was the exact reason you created a new thread on this well worn subject exactly?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Tx rides said:


> The problem with your explanation, as detailed as it may be, is this: it is false to claim this type of relationship did not exist.


LOL! There is no 'problem' with my explanation. (weird choice of words there).

You missed the point... The IRS considers every single job as unique. It places the responsibility for defining the job description AND the worker classification on the employer/company. TNCs are unique in the way they combine technology, workers and control - and the sheer number of people they have using their systems for work.

Your opinion notwithstanding, ONLY a court can rule on the worker classification status of TNC drivers.


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## BlkGeep (Dec 7, 2014)

Again, why do we need a new thread this issue!?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

BlkGeep said:


> Again, why do we need a new thread this issue!?


Because there are NEW users here every hour of every day would be a good reason.
And there has also been a tremendous amount of mis-information posted in other threads about this topic with people stating their opinions as if they were fact.

The real question (and no offense intended - I'm just being a bit snarky here...)
Why are YOU reading and commenting on threads in which you have no interest?


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## BlkGeep (Dec 7, 2014)

I have plenty of interest, the threads dont disappear, new users can read and respond within them. The actual real question is why are you answering a question directed to Rich, he said there was a reason. I'm interested to know what the reason was. Your reason is idiotic.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

BlkGeep said:


> I have plenty of interest, the threads dont disappear, new users can read and respond within them. The actual real question is why are you answering a question directed to Rich, he said there was a reason, so **** off. I'm interested to know what the reason was. Your reason is idiotic.


Great - now we know exactly what kind of person you are! Thanks for demonstrating your demeanor and personality!


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> LOL! There is no 'problem' with my explanation. (weird choice of words there).
> 
> You missed the point... The IRS considers every single job as unique. It places the responsibility for defining the job description AND the worker classification on the employer/company. TNCs are unique in the way the combine technology, workers and control - and the sheer number of people they have using their systems for work.
> 
> Your opinion notwithstanding, ONLY a court can rule on the worker classification status of TNC drivers.


It's really not unique, just much better funded. There have been clear IRS laws defining chauffeured livery service, driver employment considerations, etc. It would not take a court ruling to penalize my company for falsely classifying a driver if he filed ss8. It may take class action to force across the board, but I'll wager a bet that ss8 findings will likely side with drivers, particularly full time ones who have endured cuts, leased vehicles, had charge backs due to disputes from pax, etc.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Tx rides said:


> It's really not unique, There have been clear IRS laws defining...


You see, that's where you're not 'getting' it. It's a common misperception - and they way most people understand it - so honest, I'm not knocking you.

*The IRS doesn't write laws* - and while it can provide an advisory judgment, that judgment does not carry the weight of a court decision. Further, IRS advisory judgments, do not have the same precedent weight that a court ruling has... just because IRS has advised one query in one way, does not mean that they can't issue an advisory judgment in a different way at a different time... even for the same job description.

I know this because I have submitted SS-8 classification requests to the IRS many, many times - with the exact same job description (I have an employment agency) and received responses from IRS 50% of the time judging 'employee'- and 50% of the time judging 'independent contractor'.

It doesn't matter whether you (or I) think that TNCs are "not new" or "not unique"... in the view of the IRS and the courts, they are.



> I'll wager a bet that ss8 findings will likely side with drivers


And I'll wager you that if 2 million drivers submitted SS-8s, IRS would advise half of them one way - and half of them another. Only a court can define the classifications under the law.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You see, that's where you're not 'getting' it. It's a common misperception - and they way most people understand it - so honest, I'm not knocking you.
> 
> The IRS doesn't write laws - and while it can provide an advisory judgment, that judgment does not carry the weight of a court decision. Further, IRS advisory judgments, do not have the same precedent weight that a court ruling has... just because IRS has advised one query in one way, does not mean that they can't issue an advisory judgment in a different way at a different time... even for the same job description.
> 
> ...


They do not write laws, they do have rules. I am intimately familiar with the chauffeur/livery industry regulations.
Uber is a transportation broker, no different from GroundLink


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Tx rides said:


> They do not write laws, they do have rules. I am intimately familiar with the chauffeur/livery industry regulations.
> Uber is a transportation broker, no different from GroundLink


And IRS rules are challenged and defined by the courts everyday in this country.

Look - I respect your experience in livery services. But just because you know that area doesn't mean that your opinion that Uber is a livery service provider is correct. They say they are not. We say they are. Only the courts can decide.

What IS clear is that each state CAN determine that Uber (and Lyft and Sidecar) drivers ARE providing livery services - and require those drivers to have a livery license and proper insurance. The CA DMV announced last week that it has given CA Highway Patrol the go-ahead to enforce that requirement on TNC drivers - which means that ANY Uber/Lyft driver in CA can be ticketed for not having the proper livery license.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> And IRS rules are challenged and defined by the courts everyday in this country.
> 
> Look - I respect your experience in livery services. But just because you know that area doesn't mean that your opinion that Uber is a livery service providers is correct. They say they are not. We say they are. Only the courts can decide.
> 
> What IS clear is that each state CAN determine that Uber (and Lyft and Sidecar) drivers ARE providing livery services - and require those drivers to have a livery license and proper insurance. The CA DMV announced last week that it has given CA Highway Patrol the go-ahead to enforce that requirement on TNC drivers - which means that ANY Uber/Lyft driver in CA can be ticketed for not having the proper livery license.


I know the difference between brokered service, merchant service, and employer. Again, they are NO different from GroundLink, MUV, Mears Global, et al. They are just claiming so to avoid fines and fees. I can call myself the Queen of Texas, doesn't mean I am. But for now, I think I should be


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Tx rides said:


> I know the difference between brokered service, merchant service, and employer. Again, they are NO different from GroundLink, MUV, Mears Global, et al. They are just claiming so to avoid fines and fees. I can call myself the Queen of Texas, doesn't mean I am. But for now, I think I should be


Hail to the Queen! Dear Queen, please order Uber to raise their rates. Thanks, Your loyal subject.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Disgusted Driver said:


> Hail to the Queen! Dear Queen, please order Uber to raise their rates. Thanks, Your loyal subject.


Bah! Off with their heads! After they eat cake!!!!


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## Uzcaliber (Aug 22, 2014)

This may fall into the Labor department. Or depends on the congress since it applies across different states. Ridesharing is relatively new and the law is sort of in the gray area. IRS don't enforce how companies operate but how to tax them.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Tx rides said:


> Again, they are NO different from GroundLink, MUV, Mears Global, et al.


I agree with your opinion - but again, you are missing the point. Under the IRS regulations, NO TWO COMPANIES ARE IDENTICAL. Every company has the right to make a case for how it classifies its workforce.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

As mentioned earlier, IRS findings do not unfortunately have the weight of law. They are considered in tax court but their real value is as a CYA. If you request a finding and then follow it, if it's later determined that you are in error, the irs can only get back taxes from you, not penalties. It's a messed up system but it's our messed up system ;-)


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## Just_in (Jun 29, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> The CA DMV announced last week that it has given CA Highway Patrol the go-ahead to enforce that requirement on TNC drivers - which means that ANY Uber/Lyft driver in CA can be ticketed for not having the proper livery license.


I never saw this..I tried to Google it...nothing about this showed up..

Only that the CA DMV retracted what they previously announced.


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## BlkGeep (Dec 7, 2014)

Just_in said:


> I never saw this..I tried to Google it...nothing about this showed up..


It was pulled back the next day.


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## Just_in (Jun 29, 2014)

That's what I thought.


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## FivePointFire (Dec 16, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> Bah! Off with their heads! After they eat cake!!!!







I had to.


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## jackstraww (Jan 20, 2015)

Interesting reads,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

http://www.wired.com/2015/02/robot-cars-wont-rescue-uber-clash-drivers/

When you have a problem, the answer is always obvious: You fix it with technology.

By last evening, Uber's struggles in court were a distant memory after the company announced it was partnering with Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, to open a research center focused on self-driving cars.

Uber has taken some steps following a streak of bad publicity to present a kinder, gentler image. In a blog post announcing $1.2 billion in new funding, Uber CEO Travis Kalanick said the company would generate more than 1 million jobs globally in 2015-a promise that could help open doors in cities otherwise reluctant to embrace Uber as it aggressively expands around the world
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-03/benner-on-tech-google-tries-to-drive-over-uber

Google Ventures
Who would you trust with your data, Google or Uber? Google owns our e-mail, so it knows much darker secrets about our lives than, say, where we go at 5 a.m.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

FivePointFire said:


> I had to.


How could you not? Lol!!!!


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

BlkGeep said:


> What was the exact reason you created a new thread on this well worn subject exactly?


Because I had hoped to take the conversation a different way. Most technology you rent or purchase and you are thereby licensed for that technology. You are able to use that technology as you want. But, with Uber's technology we do not rent it. With Uber's technology don't they rent us?


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Uber, by sending 1099-Ks to the drivers showing 100% of everything collected as driver income, has established that it sells NOTHING to riders. If Uber was selling anything to the riders then those sales amounts could NOT be reported to the IRS as driver income.

The point being here is the only things Uber has any right to set the price of is the services Uber sells to the drivers. And those are the licenses to use Uber's software, the leads Uber sends the drivers, the payment processing and the insurance coverage. Outside of setting prices on these services they sell to drivers, Uber has ZERO right to set the prices for the services the drivers provide UNLESS the drivers are Uber employees.


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## 3MATX (Oct 6, 2014)

We are nothing to Uber. They hate us. As soon as it's possible we will all be replaced by robots. If not, just our less advantaged neighbors who accept the pittance uber is now paying its drivers.


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

UberHammer said:


> Uber, by sending 1099-Ks to the drivers showing 100% of everything collected as driver income, has established that it sells NOTHING to riders. If Uber was selling anything to the riders then those sales amounts could NOT be reported to the IRS as driver income.
> 
> The point being here is the only things Uber has any right to set the price of is the services Uber sells to the drivers. And those are the licenses to use Uber's software, the leads Uber sends the drivers, the payment processing and the insurance coverage. Outside of setting prices on these services they sell to drivers, Uber has ZERO right to set the prices for the services the drivers provide UNLESS the drivers are Uber employees.


And, that is my point. We rent Uber's technology, why do they get to set the price for our resale of it?


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Rich Brunelle said:


> And, that is my point. We rent Uber's technology, why do they get to set the price for our resale of it?


We're not even reselling it. There is nothing in the customer's receipt that indicates they paid for software. They paid for miles, time, base fare and SRF.


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

Again, that qualifies for my point. Uber controls every bit of the process. Were we independent contractors we would be renting/buying Ubers technology and resell it at our own rates?


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## Rubyson&sme (Dec 1, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Worker Classification under IRS rules (see IRS Publication 1799) is not a black and white issue.
> Where rulings have not been established, *it is up to the employer to determine proper worker classification*. As you note, 'control' (over a long list of worker and job related areas) is considered and weighed when the IRS and the courts consider the issue of employee vs independent contractor.
> 
> The laws governing Transportation Network Companies have yet to be written - as is always the case when technology creates an work environment and worker relationship that simply did not exists in the past. *You can file an SS-8 form with the IRS* requesting an 'opinion' as to whether a job description falls under the status of employee or independent contractor. But even that will only be 'advice' and not considered a final determination (and it will take 6 to 8 months to hear back from the IRS.
> ...


If you receive a 1099 from Uber/Rasier or whoever (whomever?) they do consider you a Independent Contractor. If you have not been paying quarterly, expect to pay a probable large amount.


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## jackstraww (Jan 20, 2015)

jackstraww said:


> Michael - Cleveland said: ↑
> Worker Classification under IRS rules (see IRS Publication 1799) is not a black and white issue.
> Where rulings have not been established, *it is up to the employer to determine proper worker classification*. As you note, 'control' (over a long list of worker and job related areas) is considered and weighed when the IRS and the courts consider the issue of employee vs independent contractor.
> he laws governing Transportation Network Companies have yet to be written - as is always the case when technology creates an work environment and worker relationship that simply did not exists in the past. *You can file an SS-8 form with the IRS* requesting an 'opinion' as to whether a job description falls under the status of employee or independent contractor. But even that will only be 'advice' and not considered a final determination (and it will take 6 to 8 months to hear back from the IRS.
> ...


Will filing an SS-8 form requesting an 'opinion' as to whether a job description falls under the status of employee or independent contractor buy you time?? Is it possible to delay writing that check while Uber walks that fine line- - Would a non favorable decision for Uber benefit us this tax year - or more likely going forward, and if so how?- Hey, I was a philosophy major--gimme a break


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

jackstraww said:


> Will filing an SS-8 form requesting an 'opinion' as to whether a job description falls under the status of employee or independent contractor buy you time?? Is it possible to delay writing that check while Uber walks that fine line- - Would a non favorable decision for Uber benefit us this tax year - or more likely going forward, and if so how?- Hey, I was a philosophy major--gimme a break


Don't you have to make enough to pay yourself, before worrying about paying taxes?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Uzcaliber said:


> This may fall into the Labor department. Or depends on the congress since it applies across different states. Ridesharing is relatively new and the law is sort of in the gray area. IRS don't enforce how companies operate but how to tax them.


Nope - working classification jurisdiction falls under IRS regulation because it pertains to tax policy.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

jackstraww said:


> Will filing an SS-8 form requesting an 'opinion' as to whether a job description falls under the status of employee or independent contractor buy you time?? Is it possible to delay writing that check while Uber walks that fine line- - Would a non favorable decision for Uber benefit us this tax year - or more likely going forward, and if so how?- Hey, I was a philosophy major--gimme a break


That's what (I believe) Uber is counting on... enough time to take the company public at a very high valuation before the business model takes a hit (but I also suspect that they have (or will have) contingency plans in place to deal with the worker classification issue if it is ruled that drivers a re Uber employees. If that ever does happen, it's pretty unlikely that Uber would have to do anything retroactively other than to the (expected) appeal date.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Rich Brunelle said:


> Don't you have to make enough to pay yourself, before worrying about paying taxes?


hehe. yeah... except you still have to file them.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Just_in said:


> I never saw this..I tried to Google it...nothing about this showed up..
> 
> Only that the CA DMV retracted what they previously announced.


Here's the original info...
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/DMV-says-UberX-Lyft-drivers-need-commercial-6035318.php
I didn't know about the 'retraction'...
http://venturebeat.com/2015/01/24/c...uber-and-lyft-drivers-need-commercial-plates/


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## kengam (Feb 11, 2015)

I tried to respond in the other union thread, but it wouldn't let me. I am interested in forming a ride share union. Let me know what I need to do.


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

With Independent Contractors, you cannot form a union, but you can form an Association, which is being done at http://rideassociation.wordpress.com


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## DrJeecheroo (Feb 12, 2015)

Union, Association, Alliances, Defiances, cliques,b lynch mobs....etc... they're all the same to me.


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## kengam (Feb 11, 2015)

Rich Brunelle said:


> With Independent Contractors, you cannot form a union, but you can form an Association, which is being done at http://rideassociation.wordpress.com


Thanks Rich, I just signed up


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## Lakeside (Feb 14, 2015)

I think TNC drivers are the very definition of independent contractors (self-employed), which is a good thing. Search the IRS.gov website under "Independent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee"


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

kengam said:


> Thanks Rich, I just signed up


Thank You


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

Lakeside said:


> I think TNC drivers are the very definition of independent contractors (self-employed), which is a good thing. Search the IRS.gov website under "Independent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee"


Yes, but this matter is being decided in the Courts right now. It would be best if we were prepared for the decision.


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## DrJeecheroo (Feb 12, 2015)

I appoint Judge Dredd.


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

DrJeecheroo said:


> Union, Association, Alliances, Defiances, cliques,b lynch mobs....etc... they're all the same to me.


Except only one can legally represent you in contract negotiations.


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## Uzcaliber (Aug 22, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Here's the original info...
> http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/DMV-says-UberX-Lyft-drivers-need-commercial-6035318.php
> I didn't know about the 'retraction'...
> http://venturebeat.com/2015/01/24/c...uber-and-lyft-drivers-need-commercial-plates/


May be they should break it down to part-time and full-time drivers. Full-timers require commercial license. After all, it's their primary job. Just a thought ....


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

That would be an idea to present to your drivers association should you have one. Again, http://rideassociation.wordpress.com


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## Allnight-AZ (Feb 17, 2015)

Tx rides said:


> They do not write laws, they do have rules. I am intimately familiar with the chauffeur/livery industry regulations.
> Uber is a transportation broker, no different from GroundLink


No, they are not a broker. They do not have an MC number with the DOT that I can find.


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## Allnight-AZ (Feb 17, 2015)

Rich Brunelle said:


> Again, that qualifies for my point. Uber controls every bit of the process. Were we independent contractors we would be renting/buying Ubers technology and resell it at our own rates?


As a "Contractor" we should have the ability to negotiate rates. We do not have any say and there is the gray area.


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

Allnight-AZ said:


> As a "Contractor" we should have the ability to negotiate rates. We do not have any say and there is the gray area.


Again, that is why we need an association to represent us. You join, you vote, you have representation. You don't join, you don't have anything unless you agree to the Association representing you.


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## Uzcaliber (Aug 22, 2014)

And perhaps 


Rich Brunelle said:


> Again, that is why we need an association to represent us. You join, you vote, you have representation. You don't join, you don't have anything unless you agree to the Association representing you.


And perhaps the association handles many things that Uber does such as insurance (make sure no gap), rates, liabilities, hiring, regulations, and licenses. It could narrow Uber to just a software company. 10% for Uber 10% for the association for commission.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Allnight-AZ said:


> No, they are not a broker. They do not have an MC number with the DOT that I can find.


You don't have to have an MC number to be a car service broker


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

Uzcaliber said:


> And perhaps
> 
> And perhaps the association handles many things that Uber does such as insurance (make sure no gap), rates, liabilities, hiring, regulations, and licenses. It could narrow Uber to just a software company. 10% for Uber 10% for the association for commission.


The intent is that the Association represent you in all contract matters, but no the Association will not be taking 10% from Uber, although it would be interesting if it could. At present I am one of a few expending resources on this task and membership is free at present. Very soon we will need nominations followed by elections for Association Officers and you know the old saying, "You have to play to win." http://rideassociation.wordpress.com


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## sam tall (Jan 20, 2015)

Rich Brunelle said:


> Okay, Is we is, or is we isn't? I was leaning towards contractors for a moment, then took a definite sway the other way.
> 
> Uber is a Technology Company. As contractors we would rent Uber's product and use it independently from Uber. Uber would not be able to dictate equipment, hours, attire, conduct, or for that matter modify income without modification of the contract.
> 
> ...


You're completely right. .


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

A trade association has no legal standing. It is a voluntary organization to which its members subscribe to support mutually beneficial causes. The only thing a trade association could do for rideshare drivers is lobby (legislators, insurance companies, TNCs). It can't negotiate on behalf of anyone. And the only way it can lobby is if it is funded. Just how much money do you think a drivers trade association could manage to raise from drivers to counter the $40 Billion+ political gorilla of Uber?


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> A trade association has no legal standing. It is a voluntary organization to which its members subscribe to support mutually beneficial causes. The only thing a trade association could do for rideshare drivers is lobby (legislators, insurance companies, TNCs). It can't negotiate on behalf of anyone. And the only way it can lobby is if it is funded. Just how much money do you think a drivers trade association could manage to raise from drivers to counter the $40 Billion+ political gorilla of Uber?


What chance do we have if we do not try. And, representation is a decision of membership vote and has previously succeeded.


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## Allnight-AZ (Feb 17, 2015)

Tx rides said:


> You don't have to have an MC number to be a car service broker


Give it time. This is all still so new government hadn't got their hands on it. 
However, in another thread someone stated Uber has started a small package delivery service. That is a Couier service and even as a Couier broker they DO have to have an MC and abide by DOT regs and so will we. 
Just a matter of time.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

Allnight-AZ said:


> Give it time. This is all still so new government hadn't got their hands on it.
> However, in another thread someone stated Uber has started a small package delivery service. That is a Couier service and even as a Couier broker they DO have to have an MC and abide by DOT regs and so will we.
> Just a matter of time.


Sorry, transportation brokers are nothing new. GroundLink, limos.com, they were around long before Uber. They are a booking "go between".

MC/USDOT registrations are not typically required for intrastate traffic, unless you are talking about hazmat/medical which may may federally regulated.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Rich Brunelle said:


> What chance do we have if we do not try. And, representation is a decision of membership vote and has previously succeeded.


As an independent contractor the only way you can voice your opinion and have an impact is through *your CHOICE not to drive rideshare*, and through petitioning (lobbying) legislators and government regulators. The first step in protection form exploitation is to be classified as an employee rather than an IC. Employees have - and can negotiate for - rights.


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

The Taxis all have Associations representing them. Many have become unions, but still started as an association. One of the strongest Peace Officer unions began as an Association and currently is one of the strongest associations in the nation. I have been in Unions, trade associations, professional associations, and in numerous other associations based on products. When you have a large membership and a good attorney, an association can work very hard for your benefit. You think your choice not to drive while the rest continues to drive is going to make a difference. Good luck with that. Forming an association that can interact nationwide with all drivers to cooperate and support your act of not driving would be far more productive than 1 driver not driving while 159,999 continue.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Rich Brunelle said:


> The Taxis all have Associations representing them. Many have become unions, but still started as an association. One of the strongest Peace Officer unions began as an Association and currently is one of the strongest associations in the nation. I have been in Unions, trade associations, professional associations, and in numerous other associations based on products. When you have a large membership and a good attorney, an association can work very hard for your benefit. You think your choice not to drive while the rest continues to drive is going to make a difference. Good luck with that. Forming an association that can interact nationwide with all drivers to cooperate and support your act of not driving would be far more productive than 1 driver not driving while 159,999 continue.


The taxi COMPANIES all have associations representing them. Not the drivers. And therein lies the difference.
Taxi companies are regulated - including as to the requirements of hiring drivers.

Creating a union to represent independent contractors who work through an unregulated industry is worthless.


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## Rich Brunelle (Jan 15, 2015)

Okay you win. It is not a good idea. just forget about it. Run into the next contract on your own, and you will be as bad off as you are now. Face it, it wasn't costing you anything to begin with as I am the only spending a penny to set it up. You do not have to participate. I will not ask you again. Enjoy doing whatever you choose to do. Have a good evening. thank you for stopping by. The pleasure has been all mine. See ya later . . . NEXT!

OOps! I forgot. As an independent contractor are you not your own company?


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

Rich Brunelle said:


> Okay, Is we is, or is we isn't? I was leaning towards contractors for a moment, then took a definite sway the other way.
> 
> Uber is a Technology Company. As contractors we would rent Uber's product and use it independently from Uber. Uber would not be able to dictate equipment, hours, attire, conduct, or for that matter modify income without modification of the contract.
> 
> ...


Take 'em to court!


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## kengam (Feb 11, 2015)

not sure why there is any resistance to unionize or "associate". I see only pros and zero cons to the idea


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## Allnight-AZ (Feb 17, 2015)

Won't see a nationwide suit. 99% of this is state by state driven. Each state regardless of the IRS has their own rules about IC's. 
You are correct 100% about the control and that's the first grounds that can get the ball rolling in any state.


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