# Hopefully new $15 min wage will double Uber pay rate



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

If the new $15 minimum wage passes, which is double the current minimum wage, then Uber would have to double the Driver pay rate to keep up and attract drivers...???

That would motivate me to drive again.


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## jrdxix (Apr 19, 2019)

No. We are contractors. They have no obligation because we are not employees. If PROP 22 passed in California that would have changed.


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## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

jrdxix said:


> No. We are contractors. They have no obligation because we are not employees. If PROP 22 passed in California that would have changed.


You completely missed the point.... If you can go get a job anywhere paying $15 an hour, Uber will have to pay its independent contractors at higher rate to compete..... Give it a little extra thought next time before replying...


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## Judge and Jury (Oct 19, 2019)

jrdxix said:


> No. We are contractors. They have no obligation because we are not employees. If PROP 22 passed in California that would have changed.


Heads up. Prop. 22 passed in California.


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## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

$15 minimum wage is a terrible idea. . . . . . I get the fact every one who works for minimum wage it sounds terrific. But the far reaching effects of forcing a $15 minimum wage is going to be terrible.

I mean where do you think the money is going to come from?? 
Poof. .. . all employers will now have the money tree just to hand it out.??

It will cause an increase in price of most businesses. 
They will have to cut employees to compensate for paying them more. 
This will cause businesses to more cavalier on hiring and firing people. 
It will cause smaller businesses to go out of business because they cant afford the cost of the new minimum wage, thus eliminating competitiveness, allowing larger businesses to set prices at a much higher price and maintain that price that they want without consideration for the market.

( and just food for thought . . .that goes for ride share also . . . .. for all those of you who wanted to be employees. . . the company can now set a limit on the # of drivers and hours you work if they deem it more economical .. . .. .


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

$15 minimum wage will force more people to try driving for Uber, since they just got fired by their employer who refuses to start paying the losers more per hour. 

The worse of an employee you are, the worse $15 minimum wage is for you. $15 will lure better employees back to work, meaning the employees that come to work late, high, and with an attitude will all get fired.


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## Jst1dreamr (Apr 25, 2019)

DDW said:


> If the new $15 minimum wage passes, which is double the current minimum wage, then Uber would have to double the Driver pay rate to keep up and attract drivers...???
> 
> That would motivate me to drive again.


$15 hr. would more than quadruple Ubers pay rate.


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## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

Atom guy said:


> $15 minimum wage will force more people to try driving for Uber, since they just got fired by their employer who refuses to start paying the losers more per hour.
> 
> The worse of an employee you are, the worse $15 minimum wage is for you. $15 will lure better employees back to work, meaning the employees that come to work late, high, and with an attitude will all get fired.


From a certain point of view I guess. . . . . I can see how it would make for a competitive environment to stay employeed.
what it could do , is also cause employers to limit hours that you can work to half of what you could usually find. Forcing people to get more than one or two jobs to compensate.

All in all. .. its a horrible idea that anyone not familiar with economics would agree to and support.


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## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Kilroy4303 said:


> $15 minimum wage is a terrible idea. . . . . . I get the fact every one who works for minimum wage it sounds terrific. But the far reaching effects of forcing a $15 minimum wage is going to be terrible.
> 
> I mean where do you think the money is going to come from??
> Poof. .. . all employers will now have the money tree just to hand it out.??
> ...


Blah blah blah. ...same argument everytime....why is it ok for everyone else's pay to rise but not minimum wage workers? All other jobs with higher pay have continually risen and it didn't hurt those jobs or their workers, so why would it be any different for minimum wage jobs and workers?


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

DDW said:


> Blah blah blah. ...same argument everytime....why is it ok for everyone else's pay to rise but not minimum wage workers? All other jobs with higher pay have continually risen and it didn't hurt those jobs or their workers, so why would it be any different for minimum wage jobs and workers?


I had a job in high school in the early 70s pumping gas. Minimum wage was $1.75. Gauged for inflation that would put minimum wage at around $11.xx an hour. By that measure minimum wage has not kept up.

But there are good reasons not to raise minimum wage beyond that. Kilroy explained it eloquently above, so I won't rehash. But I will give you one example: When minimum wage was raised here in California a few years ago McDonald's started installing self-pay kiosks.

My biggest point about minimum wage is that there is a difference between a JOB and a CAREER. Minimum wage jobs are _jobs_. When people cry out that minimum wage workers must be given a "livable wage" it does not make sense to me. These are jobs that high schooler's and those without skills take. They should be temporary. And note that this nonsense about a livable wage was being put forth before covid, when the US was at near full employment.

You can't just keep demanding more and more of society, of consumers, to pad your minimum wage job. Learn a skill, learn the language, or whatever it is that's keeping you from advancing. If you don't want to go to college and become a loan slave, go to a trade school. Figure it out. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Be what they call "self motivated".

For those unfortunates who can't do better (I'm not talking about the AOC "unwilling to work" folks), then a compassionate society tries to help.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

I think only in a few states would RS increase driver pay when (if) the minimum wage increases; calif and a few others. 

In Calif it would be a whopping $1 increase, FWIW. For those with a minimum paying position, that is.


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## kingcorey321 (May 20, 2018)

You have so much faith in uber.
Did uber give us more when the gas was 4 dollars a gallon ? You think they would right ?
NOPE NOTHING !
Quit driving uber .
Uber is a evil company that wants to pay you the least as possible With zero benefits .
Uber would have a slave race to drive for them
You crack me up when you think uber will pay you more.
15 An hour min wages . Quit uber then. Get a better job that has benefits and pays into your social security .
No uber will NOT pay more if the federal min wages goes to 15.
That dollar menu will be a 3 dollar menu . Everybody gets a pay raise . The uber driver may get his rates slashed once again.
Why not slash them ? Again ?
You continue to drive for them. Four years ago the rates were about double or more .
3 years ago i could make 25 an hour . Last year it broke down to 15 an hour .to 19 airports with surge .22 to 25 ish .catching that 10 dollar bonus .
Today most of my friends quit. They said there is zero surge anywhere.
Lyfy pays 20 % more here.


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

_Tron_ said:


> I had a job in high school in the early 70s pumping gas. Minimum wage was $1.75. Gauged for inflation that would put minimum wage at around $11.xx an hour. By that measure minimum wage has not kept up.
> 
> But there are good reasons not to raise minimum wage beyond that. Kilroy explained it eloquently above, so I won't rehash. But I will give you one example: When minimum wage was raised here in California a few years ago McDonald's started installing self-pay kiosks.
> 
> ...


I started my first job at age 16 with a minimum wage of $3.34. AT AGE 16. Minimum wage jobs are by definition low skill entry jobs. You are meant to work for minimum wage to learn the job skills to go get a better job. It's not MY fault or your employer's fault that you are lazy and irresponsible, and that you have set your life up to require more than minimum wage, but refuse to do what it takes to earn more than minimum wage.

That all being said, 1/2 the states in the country follow the federal minimum wage of $7.25, which hasn't changed in over 10 years. It's not really right that it hasn't gone up since then. The politicians are so stupid. Democrats cry that they are losing votes in red states, when it's the red states that are still at $7.25. Seems like an easy pitch to those voters, but the Dems are too dumb to make it properly. The Fight for $15 crowd is protesting in states that already have a higher minimum wage.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

DDW said:


> why is it ok for everyone else's pay to rise but not minimum wage workers?


Skill establishes value. Instead of worrying about what the minimum wage is best to focus on acquiring skills to make for more than the minimum wage.

Your value to a company could be more clearly demonstrated by comparing home prices. Their are high priced homes and there are low priced homes, visualize the difference. Same for employee values.

When a robotics programmer leaves a factory, it's a huge problem to find a replacement. When the guy emptying trash cans leaves, another meathead is ordered. Guess which pays more.

I feel bad for people who think $15 per hour is going to be a big payday for them. It still won't get you out of Mom's basement. Why in God's name don't you REALLY make your life better by acquiring a skill???


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## Shakur (Jan 8, 2017)

Minimum wage has to be raised and employers must pay more so people can afford their rent. There are drawbacks to raising the M.W. but it’s a necessity. 

as a 90s baby with a parent born in the early 40s I see the disconnect first hand. His rent used to be like 20 bucks/month. Rent kept skyrocketing; meanwhile pay did not increase the same. Everyone can’t “win,” because that’s not how capitalism works. You need classes. But even the lowest classes have to earn enough to pay rent.


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## Atom guy (Jul 27, 2016)

Shakur said:


> Minimum wage has to be raised and employers must pay more so people can afford their rent. There are drawbacks to raising the M.W. but it's a necessity.
> 
> as a 90s baby with a parent born in the early 40s I see the disconnect first hand. His rent used to be like 20 bucks/month. Rent kept skyrocketing; meanwhile pay did not increase the same. Everyone can't "win," because that's not how capitalism works. You need classes. But even the lowest classes have to earn enough to pay rent.


So many interlocking problems:

Zoning laws and government bureaucracy slow the construction of new housing and increase the costs.
The dollar has lost over 90% of its purchasing power over the last 50 years, but wages haven't kept up with that.
Investors have figured out how to make money through financial transactions rather than building stuff, so US factories have closed.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Shakur said:


> Minimum wage has to be raised and employers must pay more so people can afford their rent. There are drawbacks to raising the M.W. but it's a necessity.
> 
> as a 90s baby with a parent born in the early 40s I see the disconnect first hand. His rent used to be like 20 bucks/month. Rent kept skyrocketing; meanwhile pay did not increase the same. Everyone can't "win," because that's not how capitalism works. You need classes. But even the lowest classes have to earn enough to pay rent.


Classes are a marxist thing. I refuse to identify with the notion of classes. Classes are the result of societies without social mobility. Like communist countries.

Any Uber Driver can get a college degree. You have to want it.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

DDW said:


> If the new $15 minimum wage passes, which is double the current minimum wage, then Uber would have to double the Driver pay rate to keep up and attract drivers...???
> 
> That would motivate me to drive again.


IT WILL ONLY DOUBLE THE COST.

OF EVERYTHING.

ESPECIALLY GAS.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Shakur said:


> Minimum wage has to be raised and employers must pay more so people can afford their rent. There are drawbacks to raising the M.W. but it's a necessity.
> 
> as a 90s baby with a parent born in the early 40s I see the disconnect first hand. His rent used to be like 20 bucks/month. Rent kept skyrocketing; meanwhile pay did not increase the same. Everyone can't "win," because that's not how capitalism works. You need classes. But even the lowest classes have to earn enough to pay rent.


The minimum wage just isn't a solution to ever being able to afford rent in many places. Even at $15 an hour and working full time it won't do it.

Around me the worst, smallest, apartment is going to be $1500 a month (if you could find one of those available). Most are in the $2800 to 3200 range for just a normal apartment, and of course much higher for a nicer one.

At fifteen dollars an hour full time you will net about $480 per week. This will equal about $1900 a month so even if you can find the worst apartment around that doesn't leave you much to live on. This is why they call it "the working poor". You will spend your entire life "working poor" unless you acquire some skills that will pay significantly more than minimum wage or $15 per hour.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Two words: Roommates.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

As an Uber employee you don’t have a care in the world


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## teh744 (Apr 14, 2018)

Just wait until places cut back on hours and employees to cover the increased labor costs.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

_Tron_ said:


> Two words: Roommates.


Leave City



wallae said:


> As an Uber employee you don't have a care in the world


Until the boat owner or the Husband finds out . . .


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

tohunt4me said:


> Leave City
> 
> 
> Until the boat owner or the Husband finds out . . .


That's Dara
The wokest man in the world


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## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

_Tron_ said:


> I had a job in high school in the early 70s pumping gas. Minimum wage was $1.75. Gauged for inflation that would put minimum wage at around $11.xx an hour. By that measure minimum wage has not kept up.
> 
> But there are good reasons not to raise minimum wage beyond that. Kilroy explained it eloquently above, so I won't rehash. But I will give you one example: When minimum wage was raised here in California a few years ago McDonald's started installing self-pay kiosks.
> 
> ...


If you think the lazy Entitled not wanting to work high school kids could fill all the low skill jobs in the US you are seriously delusional. We have to have a large population of low skilled workers to do all the low skill jobs that are required to keep our economy and country going. If you could wave a msgic wand and make everybody highly skilled then some of those highly skilled people would still have to do low skill jobs because we would need them to survive. Every skill level is required to make our country run economically and otherwise and we could not survive without low skilled workers. But that doesn't mean they have to be low paid. I think getting $15 an hour for low skill job is still low pay compared to somebody getting $30 to $50 an hour for skilled jobs. The current minimum wage is entirely too low even for low skilled workers. There's a reason why low skilled workers have to have food stamps and other government welfare programs. The government, which is us taxpayers, are still paying the difference because we have to provide welfare benefits to make up for companies Not providing a living wage. This means the only people benefiting are private companies that make more money because they pay less in wages ....


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

DDW said:


> We have to have a large population of low skilled workers to do all the low skill jobs that are required to keep our economy and country going


That is true but that doesn't mean you have to be one of them. Do better for yourself and your family and let the rest worry about themselves.


DDW said:


> If you could wave a msgic wand and make everybody highly skilled


Magic wands don't work as there aren't easy quick fixes in life. It takes hard work and dedication to learn valuable skills.


DDW said:


> still paying the difference because we have to provide welfare benefits to make up for companies Not providing a living wage. This means the only people benefiting are private companies that make more money because they pay less in wages ....


Corporations and "the wealthy" are always the evil greedy culprits who get the blame for creating a dystopian society. Someone must be to blame, personal responsibility is somehow bad now.

Every excuse in the world not to make things better for yourself.


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## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

teh744 said:


> Just wait until places cut back on hours and employees to cover the increased labor costs.


Never happens...business owners spout this propaganda to further their own interests (fake facts to instill fear), but the reality is that bizs already only employ what is really needed. If you need x emoyees to run your biz, then you will employ them no matter what. If you don't employ needed people, your biz will suffer. Some biz owners may just have to cut their new Mercedes purchase from a new one every 3 years to a new one every 4 years.... won't see me cry for them.



Seamus said:


> That is true but that doesn't mean you have to be one of them. Do better for yourself and your family and let the rest worry about themselves.
> 
> Magic wands don't work as there aren't easy quick fixes in life. It takes hard work and dedication to learn valuable skills.
> 
> ...


There are facts behind calling them greedy....they are the only ones who actually got richer during the pandemic. If you think rich people work hard for their $s earned, you are delusional.

A person can only work so hard and so many hours a week. It is physically impossible to be rich working hour wise.

Rich people and companies get rich not by working themselves, but by skimming money that the workers actually earned with their efforts, Uber being a prime example.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

DDW said:


> Never happens...business owners spout this propaganda to further their own interests (fake facts to instill fear), but the reality is that bizs already only employ what is really needed. If you need x emoyees to run your biz, then you will employ them no matter what. If you don't employ needed people, your biz will suffer. Some biz owners may just have to cut their new Mercedes purchase from a new one every 3 years to a new one every 4 years.... won't see me cry for them.


Not really true. Employers will hire employees any time they predict hiring the employee will bring them more in revenue than in costs. If hiring an additonal salesman will cost $13 per hour but brings in $14 per hour in revenue, you hire the salesman. If the additional salesman costs $15 per hour and bring in $14 per hour in revenue, you fire the salesman. That may mean slightly fewer sales, but selling at a loss is never a good strategy. There is a point of diminishing returns with regards to salesmen. If you have too few, people are on hold too long and shop elsewhere. But at some point the company is better off losing the occasional sale than hiring an extra hand. When the cost of employees go up, using alternatives (such as automation) or ceasing operations becomes more cost effective by comparison, that means less employees.










And when you make the minimum wage law apply to people doing contract labor, which includes kids mowing lawns, and Uncle Bob doesn't want to pay young Benny $15 for the 1 hour job, Uncle Bob just might decide it's okay if his lawn is a little longer and only have it mowed half as often or not at all.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

_Tron_ said:


> give you one example: When minimum wage was raised here in California a few years ago McDonald's started installing self-pay kiosks.


Here in Virginia, where the minimum wage is a puny $7.25, McDs have self-serve kiosks.



Trafficat said:


> Not really true. Employers will hire employees any time they predict hiring the employee will bring them more in revenue than in costs.


How much revenue does a cashier bring? Or a dishwasher? Or a janitor?


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## Shakur (Jan 8, 2017)

DDW said:


> If you think the lazy Entitled not wanting to work high school kids could fill all the low skill jobs in the US you are seriously delusional. We have to have a large population of low skilled workers to do all the low skill jobs that are required to keep our economy and country going. If you could wave a msgic wand and make everybody highly skilled then some of those highly skilled people would still have to do low skill jobs because we would need them to survive. Every skill level is required to make our country run economically and otherwise and we could not survive without low skilled workers. But that doesn't mean they have to be low paid. I think getting $15 an hour for low skill job is still low pay compared to somebody getting $30 to $50 an hour for skilled jobs. The current minimum wage is entirely too low even for low skilled workers. There's a reason why low skilled workers have to have food stamps and other government welfare programs. *The government, which is us taxpayers, are still paying the difference because we have to provide welfare benefits to make up for companies Not providing a living wage. T..*


They dont care about that. An uber forum where people type as if they are the 1% of the population that make things move; lol; then they'll go and complain about the bolded in other situations.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Seamus said:


> That is true but that doesn't mean you have to be one of them. Do better for yourself and your family and let the rest worry about themselves.
> 
> Magic wands don't work as there aren't easy quick fixes in life. It takes hard work and dedication to learn valuable skills.
> 
> ...


C'mon man, you know that zillions of Americans were able to join the middle class and create net worth without aquiring "valuable skills" or "hard work" while millions of other Americans (African-Americans among them) weren't.

As we speak there are literally millions of jobs that pay middle class wages that anyone with average skills and intelligence can learn to do. Many are in the govt and large corporations. Many use cronyism, nepotism, and favoritism for hiring.

This country used to make things with jobs that eventually (often times due to unions) paid middle class wages. Those workers acquired net worth, usually via home ownership, many of which were passed down to their children.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

DDW said:


> If you think the lazy Entitled not wanting to work high school kids could fill all the low skill jobs in the US you are seriously delusional. We have to have a large population of low skilled workers to do all the low skill jobs that are required to keep our economy and country going. If you could wave a msgic wand and make everybody highly skilled then some of those highly skilled people would still have to do low skill jobs because we would need them to survive. Every skill level is required to make our country run economically and otherwise and we could not survive without low skilled workers. But that doesn't mean they have to be low paid. I think getting $15 an hour for low skill job is still low pay compared to somebody getting $30 to $50 an hour for skilled jobs. The current minimum wage is entirely too low even for low skilled workers. There's a reason why low skilled workers have to have food stamps and other government welfare programs. The government, which is us taxpayers, are still paying the difference because we have to provide welfare benefits to make up for companies Not providing a living wage. This means the only people benefiting are private companies that make more money because they pay less in wages ....


Some good points here, but your logic is a bit uneven and one-sided. But it certainly does contribute to the conversation. There are a lot of moving parts to this equation. The cost of housing and healthcare, just to name two examples, do diminish the notion of minimum wage workers being able to survive sans government handouts. Society has struggled with this problem decades. Recall the idea of the "projects" for affordable housing. Look how that turned out.

Still, solutions coming from the "left" tend to not address issues holistically. History tells us that raising the minimum wage past a certain point is not accepted by small business -especially those operating on thin margins- because their customers won't tolerate higher prices.



DDW said:


> Never happens...business owners spout this propaganda to further their own interests (fake facts to instill fear), but the reality is that bizs already only employ what is really needed. If you need x emoyees to run your biz, then you will employ them no matter what.


Not always "fake facts". I was looking at some charts the other day indicating a rise in unemployment when minimum wages are raised. Biz looks for other solutions. They are often as locked in as the low wage workers. This is not an ez problem to solve. Those not fully versed on the ultimate failure of socialism tend to seek socialistic remedies. A seemingly good idea, but those don't work either.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> How much revenue does a cashier bring? Or a dishwasher? Or a janitor?


Depends how many customers you have, and how fast they can work. If you have 100 customers, 0 cashiers = $0 revenue. 100 cashiers means 100 customers served at the same time with no wait time, maximizing revenue.

But can you imagine paying 100 cashiers to be there during slow times also? So maybe you strike a balance and have 10 cashiers and the customers stand in lines of ten during the rare super busy hour, and maybe you lose 18 customers who go next door. That's assuming that the cashiers are at their current wage. The law makes the cashiers have to make twice as much per hour? Maybe you fire a 3 cashiers and lose 21 customers instead of 18, but still come out at the optimal point.

Or maybe you can fire 7 cashiers and install 1 self-checkout station. Automation for the win.

Everyone at the company is evaluated for what he brings to the company.

The dishwasher? Well suppose you have 0 dishwashers. You make $0 revenue, because you can't legally serve food on dirty dishes.

The janitor? Suppose you cut costs by having no janitors. Over time people increasingly drop jars on the floor creating messes. Someone trips and falls, and sues your company. Maybe you hire 1 janitor, so this doesn't happen, but he only cleans dangerous messes but he cannot keep up with cleaning and in general things get rather grubby. Customers might go elsewhere. But if you have to pay the janitor $50 per hour, you'll probably only hire one janitor anyway.

If janitors cost $5/hr, the company will hire more janitors and make sure everything is immaculate for the customers, but if every janitor is $50/hr, there comes a point where you will actually close the public restrooms because complying with government regulations for restroom cleanliness is too costly. Where have we seen that before?

Oh yes, earlier in 2020 when the government was paying people far more on unemployment than a janitor could reasonably make, and all the restrooms were closed everywhere.

Closed public restrooms mean less business. I mean, I personally will drive an extra 5-10 minutes to go to a gas station that has public restrooms over one that doesn't. What about you?


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Trafficat said:


> Depends how many customers you have, and how fast they can work. If you have 100 customers, 0 cashiers = $0 revenue. 100 cashiers means 100 customers served at the same time with no wait time, maximizing revenue.
> 
> But can you imagine paying 100 cashiers to be there during slow times also? So maybe you strike a balance and have 10 cashiers and the customers stand in lines of ten during the rare super busy hour, and maybe you lose 18 customers who go next door. That's assuming that the cashiers are at their current wage. The law makes the cashiers have to make twice as much per hour? Maybe you fire a 3 cashiers and lose 21 customers instead of 18, but still come out at the optimal point.
> 
> ...


The topic of this thread is increasing the minimum wage to $15 and the effects has on businesses. The fact is you can't always use how much revenue you believe a worker or position brings into a company because many positions in companies don't bring in any revenue.

While it's true that incompetent cashiers can hurt a business, it's quite a stretch to say competent cashiers bring revenue into a company.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> While it's true that incompetent cashiers can hurt a business, it's quite a stretch to say competent cashiers bring revenue into a company.


If you think so, then please explain why I have never seen a grocery store that has no cashiers. Every single one has at least a single cashier.

If you think it would bring in the same revenue to have no cashiers, why not start a cashier free grocery store? You should be able to outcompete the others by saving on labor. I'll be interested to hear your strategy. Cash bucket near the door where you drop cash into according to the value of the goods you purchased? While most customers will probably be honest, I'm willing to bet that more often than not your cash bucket will be empty when you go to collect at the end of the week.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

*Amazon* on Monday announced it will now offer its cashierless store *technology*, called "Just Walk Out," to other retailers. The *technology* uses a combination of cameras, sensors, computer vision techniques and deep learning to allow customers to shop, then leave the store without waiting in line to pay.

tada!


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

SHalester said:


> *Amazon* on Monday announced it will now offer its cashierless store *technology*, called "Just Walk Out," to other retailers. The *technology* uses a combination of cameras, sensors, computer vision techniques and deep learning to allow customers to shop, then leave the store without waiting in line to pay.
> 
> tada!


Automation for the win again! Minimum wage laws will likely put many low skilled individuals out of work, but the silver lining is that it should help highly educated engineers have more projects to work on.

I feel like the minimum wage hike will hurt the economy, and make it harder to make a living driving for Uber, but on a personal level, I feel like I will be better off with a higher minimum wage. As an _unwanted engineer_™ a minimum wage hike may eventually benefit me, but the fact is, minimum wage laws are mostly regressive. They tend to benefit the highly educated over the lowly skilled. It might kill my Uber driving career, but maybe I'll get a job in the field I went to school for.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

_Tron_ said:


> I had a job in high school in the early 70s pumping gas. Minimum wage was $1.75. Gauged for inflation that would put minimum wage at around $11.xx an hour. By that measure minimum wage has not kept up.
> 
> But there are good reasons not to raise minimum wage beyond that. Kilroy explained it eloquently above, so I won't rehash. But I will give you one example: When minimum wage was raised here in California a few years ago McDonald's started installing self-pay kiosks.
> 
> ...


People don't seem to be able to relate what could be done before with a minimum wage job.

You could live ok, not great but ok, because everything was cheaper. A minimum wage job today in most markets won't even keep a roof over your head.

If you worked a little harder or was a little smarter than the next guy, there were plenty of opportunities to go up the economic ladder.

That ladder today is harder and harder to climb.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

observer said:


> People don't seem to be able to relate what could be done before with a minimum wage job.
> 
> You could live ok, not great but ok, because everything was cheaper. A minimum wage job today in most markets won't even keep a roof over your head.


If you have roommates you should be able to get by splitting rent.

I blame urban planners for this most of all. City officials are too easily corrupted by people who own the land around them (or have substantial real estate holdings themselves) and they tend not to grant permits to build new housing in order to keep real estate prices high.


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## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Americans were able to join the middle class and create net worth without aquiring "valuable skills" or "hard work"


The key word you used was *were. *Sorry my friend, those days aren't coming back.


Nats121 said:


> Many use cronyism, nepotism, and favoritism for hiring


That hasn't changed in 100 years for government jobs.


Nats121 said:


> used to make things with jobs


Key word is *used to. *Good union manufacturing jobs are gone and not coming back.

Believe me I know what it's like to be poor. Me, my siblings and my parents all lived in a tiny apartment in the Bronx on a bus driver and house cleaners salary.

The thing that gets me most of all is very little personal responsibility today. It's always someone else's fault. Either wealthy people, government, corporations or whomever else we can blame have taken the place of personal responsibility. No government or no person changes that for you. You have to change it for yourself. Been there, done that.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Kilroy4303 said:


> $15 minimum wage is a terrible idea. . . . . . I get the fact every one who works for minimum wage it sounds terrific. But the far reaching effects of forcing a $15 minimum wage is going to be terrible.
> 
> I mean where do you think the money is going to come from??
> Poof. .. . all employers will now have the money tree just to hand it out.??
> ...


Employers may cut jobs slightly but there is a minimum amount of employees required to run a business.

If an employer is able to cut, let's say 25% of the workforce, then that employer was running fat and should have cut back way BEFORE a minimum wage increase.

They may be able to have remaining workers do more but again that should have been done BEFORE a minimum wage increase.

A business that operates with excess employees is a badly run business.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

observer said:


> Employers may cut jobs slightly but there is a minimum amount of employees required to run a business.
> 
> If an employer is able to cut, let's say 25% of the workforce, then that employer was running fat and should have cut back way BEFORE a minimum wage increase.
> 
> ...


Ideally, someone will actually look at some curves based on marginal costs and marginal revenues and solve for the inflection point.

When the cost of labor goes up, that's going to move the inflection point on the graph so it literally means that the new maximum profit equilibrium point is for having less labor. It's not that they had too much labor before. They had the right amount based on the cost of the labor.

There are diminishing returns to labor, so at some point, depending on what exactly you are doing, maybe you have 3 employees and a 4th is not useful. And maybe that is still going to be true if you substantially increase the cost of labor, depending on your specific business model. But if labor were extremely cheap, that 4th laborer might actually pay for itself.

On the other hand, if you have a very large operation, someone in the back rooms will likely be able to come up with some data based mathematical justification for downsizing the workforce by a certain percentage if the minimum wage is increased. When the marginal revenue for the product sold exceeds the marginal cost of selling one more, you sell one more product. But eventually there comes a point where selling that extra product costs more than the marginal revenue. And if the costs of production for a product go up (because labor costs go up) that means you will shift your production downwards to achieve the new maximum profit point.

The laws of economics practically dictate that when the cost of labor goes up, the number of laborers hired will go down. Labor is like any commodity effected by the laws of supply and demand.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Trafficat said:


> If you have roommates you should be able to get by splitting rent.
> 
> I blame urban planners for this most of all. City officials are too easily corrupted by people who own the land around them (or have substantial real estate holdings themselves) and they tend not to grant permits to build new housing in order to keep real estate prices high.


I understand the roommate thing but when you have places where two families live in the same house. Each families husband and wife work and usually the husbands works a second job. That isn't living (looking at you San Francisco).

That''s 4 plus wages in order to afford rent.

I was offered a job many years ago in SF. They offered to double my pay.

I went up there looked around compared my costs and figured I would need triple my pay JUST TO MAINTAIN my current lifestyle.

I said thanks but no thanks, I'm not moving.

I wound up commuting by plane three days a week for eight years and it was still CHEAPER than moving up there.

Urban planners have some blame but corporations depressing wages do as well. WTH are you going to build out in SF?


----------



## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

observer said:


> Urban planners have some blame but corporations depressing wages do as well. WTH are you going to build out in SF?


In San Francisco, they could put apartments in high rises, but they won't because they know it will hurt the property values and decrease rent. Wages in San Francisco are some of the best in the country. It's just that the price of living in San Francisco is one of the most expensive anywhere, mainly due to the cost of the housing. I've read articles about trying to build more housing in SF and it is usually rejected in the name of gentrification.

We have the exact same problem in Reno right now. The city won't authorize new housing unless it is going to be high income housing. People complain that there isn't enough housing so what does Reno do? They authorize a bunch of "tiny houses" that cost like $1600 per month to rent. The city wants to attract more high income people. But what is to become of all the people who were already living in Reno before Tesla, Apple, and others started their operations out here and brought with them a ton of people from the San Jose area to fill this insufficient new housing? Rent increased from $400 for a Studio to $1100 for the same studio in a ten year span here.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Seamus said:


> Skill establishes value. Instead of worrying about what the minimum wage is best to focus on acquiring skills to make for more than the minimum wage.
> 
> Your value to a company could be more clearly demonstrated by comparing home prices. Their are high priced homes and there are low priced homes, visualize the difference. Same for employee values.
> 
> ...


Agreed, except that we can only employ a certain amount of skilled people.

We don't need 500,000 robotics programmers. We do need at least 500,000 janitors.



Trafficat said:


> In San Francisco, they could put apartments in high rises, but they won't because they know it will hurt the property values and decrease rent. Wages in San Francisco are some of the best in the country. It's just that the price of living in San Francisco is one of the most expensive anywhere, mainly due to the cost of the housing. I've read articles about trying to build more housing in SF and it is usually rejected in the name of gentrification.
> 
> We have the exact same problem in Reno right now. The city won't authorize new housing unless it is going to be high income housing. People complain that there isn't enough housing so what does Reno do? They authorize a bunch of "tiny houses" that cost like $1600 per month to rent. The city wants to attract more high income people. But what is to become of all the people who were already living in Reno before Tesla, Apple, and others started their operations out here and brought with them a ton of people from the San Jose area to fill this insufficient new housing? Rent increased from $400 for a Studio to $1100 for the same studio in a ten year span here.


They may have to do that with all the offices closing down. There's going to be a lot of empty offices.

There has to be an equilibrium.

Minimum wage in SF is around 15-16 bux.

Lower wage workers need to say screw you and move somewhere else.

I would never work two jobs to live like that. Not that I don't like to work, I've worked 12-15 hour days all my life but it's been work I enjoy.

I would never work that much just to live in a place like that, doesn't make sense, not to me at least.



Trafficat said:


> Automation for the win again! Minimum wage laws will likely put many low skilled individuals out of work, but the silver lining is that it should help highly educated engineers have more projects to work on.
> 
> I feel like the minimum wage hike will hurt the economy, and make it harder to make a living driving for Uber, but on a personal level, I feel like I will be better off with a higher minimum wage. As an _unwanted engineer_™ a minimum wage hike may eventually benefit me, but the fact is, minimum wage laws are mostly regressive. They tend to benefit the highly educated over the lowly skilled. It might kill my Uber driving career, but maybe I'll get a job in the field I went to school for.


I don't know about automation. It can't do everything, at least not yet.

We've had two stores, Food4less a division of Ralphs, put in cashierless kiosks and take them out.

I actually liked the kiosks but at almost every other transaction I would need help for some reason or other from the attendant.

They took them out.

Walk in to any McDonalds and yes a lot of the work is automated but there are still tons of employees in the back.


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## Big Lou (Dec 11, 2019)

wallae said:


> As an Uber employee you don't have a care in the world


Is he off the coast of Mar A Largo?


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Trafficat said:


> The laws of economics practically dictate that when the cost of labor goes up, the number of laborers hired will go down.


The business can raise prices to offset the higher cost of labor or investors could take less profit (yea, that's going to happen).

A car wash that I go to was charging 6 bux (drive through). It raised the price to 8 bux.

I asked the attendant, when did prices go up? He said on January 1, it's so we they can pay us a little more (minimum wage went up a dollar).

I thought, ok that's reasonable.

Then I realized, wait a minute, minimum wage went up a buck. That's less than a 10% increase in pay per hour. But the cost went up 33%!

Then I thought, WAIT A DAMN MINUTE! That's 33% more PER CAR.

That car wash runs 40 cars an hour through there so, they pay their 5 workers an additional 5 bux and KEEP an additional 75 bux for the business.

All the while blaming the increase in minimum wage.

Not, much to think about when yr inside the car wash. :smiles:


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

You're making some good observations, observer.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Trafficat said:


> It might kill my Uber driving career,


RS is a career? Methinks that is a quite a stretch. Maybe BLACK level is a maybe career.

All this talk about minimum wage. The original **** of minimum wage was so fast food joints wouldn't take advantage of HS aged kids working pt.

Now, a few confused people, try to turn minimum wage into a 'living' wage.

No skills, entry level job = minimum wage. It's that simple. don't want that wage, get some skills and experience.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> RS is a career? Methinks that is a quite a stretch. Maybe BLACK level is a maybe career.
> 
> All this talk about minimum wage. The original thought of minimum wage was so fast food joints wouldn't take advantage of HS aged kids working pt.
> 
> ...


Nope.

Minimum wage has been around way before "fast food". Since just after the Great Depression.

It was meant to protect ALL workers from exploitation not just "high school kids" working part time.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> It was meant to protect ALL workers from exploitation not just "high school kids" working part time.


yup. specially in calif 40+ years ago.

the MAIN reason was protecting 'a' class of workers. A class of workers heavily in the food industries. As most OTHER jobs require actual skills and many have no entry level, no skills positions available.

So hum.

bottom line one shouldn't aim for a minimum paying job to 'pay' the bills as their career. Hum II


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

observer said:


> Employers may cut jobs slightly but there is a minimum amount of employees required to run a business.
> 
> If an employer is able to cut, let's say 25% of the workforce, then that employer was running fat and should have cut back way BEFORE a minimum wage increase.
> 
> ...


Tell that to the fast food employee who lost his job because customers can now order at a kiosk.
Tell that to the grocery employee who lost thier job because customers can now go to the self check out.

Raising the minimum wage will encourage employers to innovate an find ways to hire fewer employees.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> yup. specially in calif 40+ years ago.
> 
> the MAIN reason was protecting 'a' class of workers. A class of workers heavily in the food industries. As most OTHER jobs require actual skills and many have no entry level, no skills positions available.
> 
> ...


Minimum wage was Federal and part of the FLSA in the late 1930s.

There really was no fast food as we know it today.

It was meant to put a floor in workers pay precisely because there were so many unemployed and companies were taking advantage of workers and dropping pay.

Much like Uber does I might add.

Agreed, workers should not aim for a minimum paying job but that doesn't mean employers should be allowed to keep wages low.

Should we allow companies to pay 4 dollars an hour?



WEY00L said:


> Tell that to the fast food employee who lost his job because customers can now order at a kiosk.
> Tell that to the grocery employee who lost thier job because customers can now go to the self check out.
> 
> Raising the minimum wage will encourage employers to innovate an find ways to hire fewer employees.


I don't know about your area but at least here, there seem to be just as many employees as before.

Someone still has to cook the food, sort the food, package the food and get paid.

The kiosks at my local McDonalds aren't even being used at the moment and even when they did work weren't used that often. Their labor savings were minimal.

The only way they would work is if they completely got rid of cashiers.

There would be a lot of unhappy customers.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

They won't increase pay with an increase in min wage.

There's no need to.. none of yall make min wage now and think you're doing double. They can just leave it where it's at.


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## WEY00L (Mar 6, 2019)

observer said:


> Minimum wage was Federal and part of the FLSA in the late 1930s.
> 
> There really was no fast food as we know it today.
> 
> ...


Most of the kiosks are not being used due to covid.
I place most of my fast food orders using apps..
If U/L can get a computer to drive a car then getting a computer to flip burgers is not far behind.

Raising the minimum wage will increase the speed at which current jobs will be eliminated.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

WEY00L said:


> Most of the kiosks are not being used due to covid.
> I place most of my fast food orders using apps..
> If U/L can get a computer to drive a car then getting a computer to flip burgers is not far behind.
> 
> Raising the minimum wage will increase the speed at which current jobs will be eliminated.


Most jobs will be eliminated regardless of minimum wage increases.

Machines don't call in sick. They don't get injured. They work 24/7. They don't earn holiday or sick pay. They don't generate workers comp premiums. They don't earn social security or disability benefits. They don't earn an hourly wage. They don't talk back. They don't unionize. Etc. Etc.

Heck, they don't wear UNIFORMS. That alone will save hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

Minimum wage will be a factor in automization but not only is it a very minor factor, it is coming regardless of increases in pay.

Automization.

&#129300;

Is that even a word?


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Yeah. And when the machines figure out how to repair themselves and even make new machines, the "virus" scourge of this planet (per Agent Smith) will no longer be needed...


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

BTW, eventually fast food will be made by high speed, three D printers.

All nice and perfectly shaped. Made on the spot from tanks in the back.

Sounds YUMMY!!


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

If F*ub*a*r* or Gr*yft* do anything in response, they will cut pay. Gr*yft* is sneaking a pay cut in some markets right now. You will know when F*ub*a*r* has decided to copycat it when you see in your INBOX "GREAT NEWS!".


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Seamus said:


> The key word you used was *were. *Sorry my friend, those days aren't coming back.


 Reread the middle paragraph from my post and you'll see it's referring to the present, not the past.



Seamus said:


> That hasn't changed in 100 years for government jobs.


There's plenty of it in the private sector as well.



Seamus said:


> Believe me I know what it's like to be poor. Me, my siblings and my parents all lived in a tiny apartment in the Bronx on a bus driver and house cleaners salary.


Poverty on a bus driver's salary? How many years ago are you talking about? Public or private bus driver? NYC bus drivers have been making solidly middle class money (and sometimes upper middle class with lots of overtime) for many years. Add to that medical benefits and generous pensions and the sum total isn't poverty, that's for sure.



Seamus said:


> The thing that gets me most of all is very little personal responsibility today. It's always someone else's fault. Either wealthy people, government, corporations or whomever else we can blame have taken the place of personal responsibility. No government or no person changes that for you. You have to change it for yourself. Been there, done that.


This thread is about a $15 minimum wage. Supporting an increase in the minimum wage to $15 does NOT mean you're opposed to personal responsibility.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

DDW said:


> If the new $15 minimum wage passes, which is double the current minimum wage, then Uber would have to double the Driver pay rate to keep up and attract drivers...???
> 
> That would motivate me to drive again.


LULZZZZ


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Here in Virginia, where the minimum wage is a puny $7.25, McDs have self-serve kiosks.
> 
> 
> How much revenue does a cashier bring? Or a dishwasher? Or a janitor?


Well
A Janitor can save Millions !

" cleanup on aisle3!"

No Janitor ?

Sally lawsuit slips on aisle 3.
Compresses 3 vertebrae in neck.
Lawsuit costs a Million !


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## Uber's Guber (Oct 22, 2017)

DDW said:


> If the new $15 minimum wage passes, which is double the current minimum wage, then Uber would have to double the Driver pay rate to keep up and attract drivers...???


No, that won't happen. 
But you'll be paying double for your hamburger. 
Enjoy.


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

observer said:


> The business can raise prices to offset the higher cost of labor or investors could take less profit (yea, that's going to happen).
> 
> A car wash that I go to was charging 6 bux (drive through). It raised the price to 8 bux.
> 
> ...


Wash your own car, problem solved.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

franksoprano said:


> Wash your own car, problem solved.


Actually they do a good job. There's 3 car washes closer to me but I usually go there.

I don't mind the extra two bux.

What I do mind is them saying they had to raise prices due to the increase in minimum wage.


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

observer said:


> Actually they do a good job. There's 3 car washes closer to me but I usually go there.
> 
> I don't mind the extra two bux.
> 
> What I do mind is them saying they had to raise prices due to the increase in minimum wage.


I have a car wash also, I pay around 38.00 month auto pay and go through machine 1 time every other day, it's a good deal because I was doing it at a self service car wash and it cost about the same and my car was never as clean, they got the free vacuum and all.


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## Poopy54 (Sep 6, 2016)

DDW said:


> If the new $15 minimum wage passes, which is double the current minimum wage, then Uber would have to double the Driver pay rate to keep up and attract drivers...???
> 
> That would motivate me to drive again.


Businesses will go broke and close, thus not having anyone to drive around


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

franksoprano said:


> I have a car wash also, I pay around 38.00 month auto pay and go through machine 1 time every other day, it's a good deal because I was doing it at a self service car wash and it cost about the same and my car was never as clean, they got the free vacuum and all.


Yea, That's why I like this particular carwash. It does a better job of cleaning the outside and seems to last longer.

They have the monthly pass here too but I only wash it about once a week if I happen to be in the area.

I keep the inside clean, semiclean, because my kids can't seem to clean after themselves. Occasionally I'll rinse it down at home but washing the car isn't something I like to do.

My nephew can spend two hours cleaning, washing and waxing his car.

Car washes are actually one of those businesses that did automate somewhat and lost a few workers.

There are 7 car washes within a mile of me. Two of those were new self serve, four couldn't compete and are switching over or have switched. The only full serve doesn't really work too well. I expect them to switch over soon as well if they aren't forced out because of their prime location.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> Should we allow companies to pay 4 dollars an hour?


what a silly question considering that i've posted about the minimum wage, right?


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> what a silly question considering that i've posted about the minimum wage, right?


Yea, you're right. Silly question.

You'd be ok with them paying 3 bux an hour.

:rollseyes:


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> You'd be ok with them paying 3 bux an hour.


your attempts at snark need a better aiming system. :biggrin:

Being in calif, the min wage is now $14. And for those who enjoy splitting hairs that is for a company with > 24 employees. For an entry level job and with no experience that rate is fine. If congress raises the fed min to $15, won't be that much of a difference here in Calif.

So, tell me, what do you think a first time worker in a fast food joint should make if it happens to be their first job and have zero experience? Shoe meet other foot.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> your attempts at snark need a better aiming system. :biggrin:
> 
> Being in calif, the min wage is now $14. And for those who enjoy splitting hairs that is for a company with > 24 employees. For an entry level job and with no experience that rate is fine. If congress raises the fed min to $15, won't be that much of a difference here in Calif.
> 
> So, tell me, what do you think a first time worker in a fast food joint should make if it happens to be their first job and have zero experience? Shoe meet other foot.


:rollseyes:

I know exactly how much minimum wage is. I've had to correct others several times when they've quoted the wrong hourly wage.

-o:

I got the impression, maybe I was wrong, that you thought minimum wage was too high.

Minimum wage should be raised to 15 and indexed to inflation. That way if prices go up slightly, wages go up. If prices go down slightly, wages go down slightly.

That's the only way that I can think of to not leave people living in poverty.

What are your solutions?

Would you rather pay higher taxes to pay for their welfare or do you have another solution?


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> , that you thought minimum wage was too high.


no, quite sure, as noted, you went in the complete wrong direction on this one. Sorry¿

IN CALIF, minimum wage is fine. I think 2022 is next raise to $15, which will match what is being discussed for the fed min wage.

Minimum wage was not meant to be a 'living' wage one remains at for a long periods of time. When I entered the work force 40+ years ago it was to protect HS aged kids getting their first part-time job.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

SHalester said:


> no, quite sure, as noted, you went in the complete wrong direction on this one. Sorry¿
> 
> IN CALIF, minimum wage is fine. I think 2022 is next raise to $15, which will match what is being discussed for the fed min wage.
> 
> Minimum wage was not meant to be a 'living' wage one remains at for a long periods of time. When I entered the work force 40+ years ago it was to protect HS aged kids getting their first part-time job.


It's fine now.

Because California has been raising it.

It was 8 bux an hour not that long ago. I wanna say as early as 4-5 years ago.

I know you keep saying,

"Minimum wage was not meant to be a 'living' wage one remains at for a long periods of time. When I entered the work force 40+ years ago it was to protect HS aged kids getting their first part-time job."

That doesn't make it true.

There are huge amounts of people making minimum wage in other industries besides fast food.

There are also huge, YUUUGE amount of ADULTS that work in fast food.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

observer said:


> There are huge amounts of people making minimum wage in other industries besides fast food.


so you say. I say maybe not and certainly not for long. Even in fast food you get raises right away. Ditto other positions.

And yes, adults now find fast food a paying job because of their circumstances. Kinda like RS, right??? Underemployed is a real thing.

Nuff said. I'm back to Uber et al really don't give a shyte about the minimum wage, well except in Calif.


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## HonkyTonk (Oct 27, 2019)

SHalester said:


> so you say. I say maybe not and certainly not for long. Even in fast food you get raises right away. Ditto other positions.
> 
> And yes, adults now find fast food a paying job because of their circumstances. Kinda like RS, right??? Underemployed is a real thing.
> 
> Nuff said. I'm back to Uber et al reallgainsy don't give a shyte about the minimum wage, well except in Calif.


Looks like someone just wants attention. And to side against drivers, with corporate - always!


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## Da Ub (Oct 29, 2016)

This may be a bit off topic but everyone knows that Chic-A-Filia and In an Out pay 17.00 per hour in CA


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)




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## Asificarewhatyoudontthink (Jul 6, 2017)

Kilroy4303 said:


> $15 minimum wage is a terrible idea. . . . . . I get the fact every one who works for minimum wage it sounds terrific. But the far reaching effects of forcing a $15 minimum wage is going to be terrible.
> 
> I mean where do you think the money is going to come from??
> Poof. .. . all employers will now have the money tree just to hand it out.??
> ...


If your business model relies on not paying a living wage your business isn't viable to begin with and Should die. Period.

And I hate to tell you this, since you seem to like the delusion you live in, but most major companies can actually afford to pay that as their starting wage but choose not to... Simply to pad their apparent profit margins. 
I say apparent because, in the end, those lower wages actually hurt the financial buying power of a society. Which, in the end, negatively impacts the profits of major corporations. 
So they do what they already and always have done. They seek to lower their costs to maintain those falsely inflated profits. 
They outsource and eventually fully ship overseas those jobs. 
This creates even worse impacts on the economies and thus an even higher need to reduce costs. Those cost savings efforts drive economic pressures further into the whole and eventually you have a collapse.

You would recognize each of these as they wod be plotted out historically matching every economic Bust that follow those ballooning "profits".

And, when you adjust, negatively, our latest "great economy" ("the greatest economy ever") you would see that we actually aren't doing That much better than previous economic periods. 
We only just barely recover from the previous bust when the next one occurs.



tohunt4me said:


> IT WILL ONLY DOUBLE THE COST.
> 
> OF EVERYTHING.
> 
> ESPECIALLY GAS.


This is a fallacious argument that becomes self fulfilled because people like you accept it is the answer.

Take the gas price spike at the end of 2008 when diesel hit over 4.00 a gallon on the cheap side.

Convenience stores raised their candy bar prices at that time claiming they "had to" to offset the delivery price increases. 
0.89 candy bars became 1.19. An increase of 0.30 per candy bar.

The most popular candy bar (by sales numbers) is the snickers bar. 
At 48 snickers bars in a standard retail box that comes out to 14.40 per box. 
My stores increased cost of delivery (because we are only talking less than a dollar per gallon I passed on costs to the store and that cost is also divided amongst all stores on the route) was less than one box of snickers.

So, why did the prices on all products (njot just candy bars) go up?

Why didn't those prices go back down when the price of diesel dropped?

Because people like you, and you are in the majority here so don't feel bad, actually believe the garbage that these "economists" all teach.

If burger joints increased the costs of all of their products just 0.20 they would generate more than the cost of their payroll increases (taking into consideration the higher spending power of the society as a whole).


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> If your business model relies on not paying a living wage your business isn't viable to begin with and Should die. Period.
> 
> And I hate to tell you this, since you seem to like the delusion you live in, but most major companies can actually afford to pay that as their starting wage but choose not to... Simply to pad their apparent profit margins.
> I say apparent because, in the end, those lower wages actually hurt the financial buying power of a society. Which, in the end, negatively impacts the profits of major corporations.
> ...


Diesel has Remained more expensive( although historically & traditionally LESS expensive) due to the Cost of Low Sulfer Refining.

All refineries had to modify during the mid 2000's.
I did the new construction on a few of them.


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## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Here in Virginia, where the minimum wage is a puny $7.25, McDs have self-serve kiosks.
> 
> 
> How much revenue does a cashier bring? Or a dishwasher? Or a janitor?


They help produce Lots of revenue... without them, you have no revenue. How long do you think a car engine will last if you remove parts, say the oil. It takes ALL employees for a biz to work and be successful. It just bogals my mind that people can't understand basic big picture concepts. It does no good for a salesman to make sales if there is no one to ship out the product......every job is important to mske a biz work. How many hamburgers would McDonald's sell if they didn't have that low wage burger flipper? NONE



Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> If your business model relies on not paying a living wage your business isn't viable to begin with and Should die. Period.
> 
> And I hate to tell you this, since you seem to like the delusion you live in, but most major companies can actually afford to pay that as their starting wage but choose not to... Simply to pad their apparent profit margins.
> I say apparent because, in the end, those lower wages actually hurt the financial buying power of a society. Which, in the end, negatively impacts the profits of major corporations.
> ...


FINALLY, someone here who has a grasp on the big picture and is not brainwashed. Bravo on an excellent explanation. It saddens me that half the people here probably don't have the brain power to understand what you explained, and the other half are locked into their simplistic beliefs and will reject any information that doesn't match what they believe.



Seamus said:


> That is true but that doesn't mean you have to be one of them. Do better for yourself and your family and let the rest worry about themselves.
> 
> Magic wands don't work as there aren't easy quick fixes in life. It takes hard work and dedication to learn valuable skills.
> 
> ...


What about personal responsibility for the wealthy? Is it responsible to take money from people who need it to survive just so they can live an EVEN MORE lavish lifestyle than they already have?



SHalester said:


> *Amazon* on Monday announced it will now offer its cashierless store *technology*, called "Just Walk Out," to other retailers. The *technology* uses a combination of cameras, sensors, computer vision techniques and deep learning to allow customers to shop, then leave the store without waiting in line to pay.
> 
> tada!


So why isn't it everywhere? You can't use one off situations to justify all situations...be real



observer said:


> Nope.
> 
> Minimum wage has been around way before "fast food". Since just after the Great Depression.
> 
> It was meant to protect ALL workers from exploitation not just "high school kids" working part time





Poopy54 said:


> Businesses will go broke and close, thus not having anyone to drive around


A simple mind sees things in simple ways.. ..

Do you really think a biz is going to close down just because the owner is unhappy that now they will now only make $250,000 profit instead of $300,000 Profit?


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Whatever happened to the company that decided to pay all of its employees a $70K minimum wage?

https://boingboing.net/2021/01/24/w...-all-of-its-employees-a-70k-minimum-wage.html


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## HPRohit (Apr 9, 2018)

DDW said:


> Whatever happened to the company that decided to pay all of its employees a $70K minimum wage?
> 
> https://boingboing.net/2021/01/24/w...-all-of-its-employees-a-70k-minimum-wage.html


This is a great story....every business has the freedom to do/try this. That does not mean it should be mandated by the government. Employees has the option to not work at company's that don't compensate them well enough. This is about freedom and flexibility. One anecdotal story does not make something viable for the government to smash down on every business nationwide. The economics of doing credit card transactions in Seattle are not comparable to running a diner in Belfouche, SD.

While Uber has been struggling to turn a profit and burning piles of cash reserves, how many drivers in 2014 offered to drive for less money. How many refused the gigantic promotions for the good of the company.

Okay, Uber drivers aren't employees...How many retired auto workers offered to return to work or decrease their pensions when General Motors was collapsing. Why doesn't Warren Buffett match his secretary's salary with his?

People are diverse and are driven by different things. We have a different concept of right and entitlement. It is wrong to force Dan Price's values on someone else's property (business model)


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## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

DDW said:


> Blah blah blah. ...same argument everytime....why is it ok for everyone else's pay to rise but not minimum wage workers? All other jobs with higher pay have continually risen and it didn't hurt those jobs or their workers, so why would it be any different for minimum wage jobs and workers?





DDW said:


> Blah blah blah. ...same argument everytime....why is it ok for everyone else's pay to rise but not minimum wage workers? All other jobs with higher pay have continually risen and it didn't hurt those jobs or their workers, so why would it be any different for minimum wage jobs and workers?


I was going to supply more reasons than the ones initially offered, but to be honestly others did so far more eloquently than I could.

And as far as Blah Blah Blah. . . . shows you may have heard the arguments before but evidently you didn't listen or try to understand it.


----------



## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

When minimum wage goes up that is not the only thing that goes for employers.

Their employment taxes go up as well.
Most commercial insurance policies both liability and work comp is based of payroll. So their liability insurance goes up and their work comp insurance goes up.
Most companies need supplies and those costs will go up for the same reason, the suppliers costs go up based on higher wages, taxes, and insurance.
Now companies have to raise their prices to cover these added costs. Employees making more money will pay more in income taxes. With the added costs for consumer goods going up people making minimum wage will ultimately be in worse shape for the increased earnings they got. They will have less disposable cash in the end.

The only one who benefits from an increase in minimum wage is the tax man. The tax man will see more:

Employment taxes from higher wages
Income taxes from those earning higher wages
Sales Tax from higher costs of goods.
Keep believing increasing minimum wage is for the best, it is all smoke and mirrors.


----------



## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> most major companies can actually afford to pay that as their starting wage but choose not to... Simply to pad their apparent profit margins.


Well evidently you took away only what you wanted to take away from my posts. . . as you like to say "People like you" like to do that to support their argument in the face of obvious fallacies of their argument.

At what point did I say Major corporations couldn't support the MW increase. It will cause MAJOR corporations to increase prices that is true ( because as you put it. . .to pad their profits. . . become more cavalier in hiring and firing. .. )

The Major impact will be to put smaller businesses out of business. Thus eliminating competition and allowing more control on final product and service costs and profit.


Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Why didn't those prices go back down when the price of diesel dropped?


DO you really know how gas stations work? Evidently not. They don't make a dime on the gas, zip, zilch nada. They make a profit on the food , drinks and etc. they sell in the store. SO .using that knowledge you evidently lacked. .. they increase the products they sell to cover the increase in expenditures of the higher taxes, wages etc.


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Kilroy4303 said:


> I was going to supply more reasons than the ones initially offered, but to be honestly others did so far more eloquently than I could.
> 
> And as far as Blah Blah Blah. . . . shows you may have heard the arguments before but evidently you didn't listen or try to understand it.


Yes, I have heard this false propaganda before. I don't just believe what others tell me to believe ( I am not a Trumper), instead I think for myself and look at facts. Enjoy your bubble....


----------



## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

DDW said:


> Yes, I have heard this false propaganda before. I don't just believe what others tell me to believe ( I am not a Trumper), instead I think for myself and look at facts. Enjoy your bubble....


ah false news. .. or false propaganda. ..

the age old cry of denouncing factual evidence because it doesn't suit you. ..

continue on with your delusional reasoning and inaccurate knowledge . .. .

its entertaining and humorous at best


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

DDW said:


> They help produce Lots of revenue... without them, you have no revenue. How long do you think a car engine will last if you remove parts, say the oil. It takes ALL employees for a biz to work and be successful. It just bogals my mind that people can't understand basic big picture concepts. It does no good for a salesman to make sales if there is no one to ship out the product......every job is important to mske a biz work. How many hamburgers would McDonald's sell if they didn't have that low wage burger flipper? NONE


Janitors, cashiers, grills, engine oil, office space, etc are all important to the operation of various businesses but they are part of the OVERHEAD, they're NOT part of the revenue.


----------



## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Janitors, cashiers, grills, engine oil, office space, etc are all important to the operation of various businesses but they are part of the OVERHEAD, they're NOT part of the revenue.


Janitors rarely are, but cashiers and baristas and bartenders are often part of revenue. Good ones bring customers, and bring them back more often


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

Having a decent janitor that makes your building presentable to both customers and employees is great for morale and good overall morale boosts your overall productivity and revenue. Have a crappy Janitor and a dirty building and customers may not come back and you may have unhappy customers and employees leading to lower revenue. Yes he is overhead, however overhead can affect your revenue.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

DDW said:


> o why isn't it everywhere? You can't use one off situations to justify all situations...be real


I was being real. I merely added there was a grocery store that had no cashiers and was doing fine.

flip side of debates IS being real. Right?

Next.


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## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

just remember an insane person doesn't know they are insane. . .. ..


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Kilroy4303 said:


> ah false news. .. or false propaganda. ..
> 
> the age old cry of denouncing factual evidence because it doesn't suit you. ..
> 
> ...


Please provide your source of " factual evidence". Don't be like Republicans and think just because you SAY you have evidence means it is true.


----------



## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

FLKeys said:


> When minimum wage goes up that is not the only thing that goes for employers.
> 
> Their employment taxes go up as well.
> Most commercial insurance policies both liability and work comp is based of payroll. So their liability insurance goes up and their work comp insurance goes up.
> ...


There's positives as well...

If i owe $1000 to the credit card company, well if my wage increases from $400 a week to $600 a week suddenly it becomes easier to pay back that $1000.

If I have a mortgage already that mortgage payment magically becomes easier to cover.


----------



## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

DDW said:


> Please provide your source of " factual evidence". Don't be like Republicans and think just because you SAY you have evidence means it is true.


and just like democrats they want everyone else to do the leg work for them and sit back and belittle anyone who doesn't believe the way they do.


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Kilroy4303 said:


> just remember an insane person doesn't know they are insane. . .. ..


Yes, YOU need to remember this too.....


----------



## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

But fine. . here ya go. . . Jul 10, 2019 Forbes magazine ( and just incase you don't know what Forbes i s. . let me kick over your rock and explain )

(*Forbes* is a global media company, focusing on business, investing, technology, entrepreneurship, leadership, and lifestyle.)



DDW said:


> Yes, YOU need to remember this too.....


waiting for your facts and reference

If it helps the author is Jack Kelly.
Also. . a major in business economics. . . (that's called a degree to you .. . ..)


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Kilroy4303 said:


> waiting for your facts and reference
> 
> If it helps the author is Jack Kelly.
> Also. . a major in business economics. . . (that's called a degree to you .. . ..)


First of all, Forbes caters to business interests and does not want to upset them....second, degrees in no way equate to being smart.

Here is a more unbiased source:

https://www.upjohn.org/research-highlights/does-increasing-minimum-wage-lead-higher-prices


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## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

we can go back and forth on this all day. I don't agree with your assessment of Forbes, and you don't agree with my facts and references. Economics will prove the truth one way or another. . .

but you wont hear about it on Facebook, Twitter, Google or amazon. . . . cause god knows they are reliable and not censoring any info .


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Kilroy4303 said:


> we can go back and forth on this all day. I don't agree with your assessment of Forbes, and you don't agree with my facts and references. Economics will prove the truth one way or another. . .
> 
> but you wont hear about it on Facebook, Twitter, Google or amazon. . . . cause god knows they are reliable and not censoring any info .


I don't do any of that social media for the simple reason that there are too many idiots on SM.


----------



## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

DDW said:


> I don't do any of that social media for the simple reason that there are too many idiots on SM.


with that we find common ground. . . they are all idiots


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Kilroy4303 said:


> we can go back and forth on this all day. I don't agree with your assessment of Forbes, and you don't agree with my facts and references.


It is a proven fact that media companies (like mags) go to great pains to make sure that their article content doesn't cost them readers and advertisers, so I trust research institutions much more.


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## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

DDW said:


> It is a proven fact that media companies (like mags) go to great pains to make sure that their article content doesn't cost them readers and advertisers, so I trust research institutions much more.


I can see your point and reasoning. . and maybe some truth to it. I have just used Forbes and one or two other publications over the years because of their mostly unbiased articles. You have to use them like any research, 1) get a theory and then 2) make sure you have other supporting information to verify it.


----------



## IRME4EVER (Feb 17, 2020)

DDW said:


> Blah blah blah. ...same argument everytime....why is it ok for everyone else's pay to rise but not minimum wage workers? All other jobs with higher pay have continually risen and it didn't hurt those jobs or their workers, so why would it be any different for minimum wage jobs and workers?


 Uber doesn't pay their driver's minimum wage!! 
You seem to forget 1 major issue! It's our cars which are run to the ground, for skateboard paying pax who expect limo service. The ones who think they are ENTITLED regardless!!!


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Here is an immediate byproduct of artificially raising wages. All those hard working lay people who were through their own hard work making just above the new minimum, get nothing and the other workers who failed to get raises and advance suddenly make the same money.

Hard work doesn't pay?

Being lazy, or slow, or a lackadaisical worker does?


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

DDW said:


> If the new $15 minimum wage passes, which is double the current minimum wage, then Uber would have to double the Driver pay rate to keep up and attract drivers...???
> 
> That would motivate me to drive again.


It will result in the loss of tens of thousands of jobs.
Which will increase the number of drivers.

More drivers ... more competition .... the pie gets cut into many more and much smaller pieces.

In about eight months; we are gonna be very, very screwed.



Amos69 said:


> Here is an immediate byproduct of artificially raising wages. All those hard working lay people who were through their own hard work making just above the new minimum, get nothing and the other workers who failed to get raises and advance suddenly make the same money.
> 
> Hard work doesn't pay?
> 
> Being lazy, or slow, or a lackadaisical worker does?


I consider myself an expert on this subject, as I have been working for pay for over a half century.
And I can answer your questions:

Hard work doesn't pay? NO
Being lazy, or slow, or a lackadaisical worker does? Maybe not, but it doesn't pay any _less_.


----------



## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Because people like you, and you are in the majority here so don't feel bad, actually believe the garbage that these "economists" all teach.


And don't believe the garbage geologists spew about geology. And ignore advice doctors give concerning health.

It's a fact, all else being equal, when the cost goes up, the demand goes down. Likewise, when the cost goes down, the demand goes up. For example, if Chevy increased the price of the Corvette, less would be sold, all else being equal. Likewise, if Chevy decreased the cost of the Vette, more would be sold, all else being equal.

Like the Corvette, labor is a product. Increase the cost of labor and the demand for labor will be reduced. If labor is necessary and can be shipped to cheaper markets, production will be shipped to cheaper labor markets. Want to increase production in the USA? Eliminate the minimum wage. That would create full employment. That would create lower priced products. That would increase exports. The increased demand would require more labor. With an increased demand for labor and a fixed supply, companies would be forced to increase pay for labor.



Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> If your business model relies on not paying a living wage your business isn't viable to begin with and Should die. Period.


If I have an apple tree and my neighbor has an orange tree and we agree to exchange two apples for two oranges, why should some third party interfere and say, "No, you must give at least three apples for two oranges."

In the long run, free markets contributes to economic growth and transparency. It ensures competitive markets. Supply and demand create competition, which helps ensure that the best goods or services are provided to consumers at the lowest price. Lower cost goods increase the spending power of consumers. Increased spending power increases demand. Increased demand for products increases demand for employment. Increased demand for employment increases the prices companies will pay for labor. And the upward spiral begins.

Increased costs to businesses decreases their productivity and decreases their domestic and international competitiveness. Decreased competitiveness decreases demand. Decreased demand decreases employment and market wages. And the downward spiral begins. Soon, car manufacturers will stop producing cars (i.e. Ford).

In the short run, increasing the minimum wage creates votes for politicians. Politicians want to get reelected.



UberBastid said:


> Hard work doesn't pay?


Hard work does usually pay. But smart work pays more.


----------



## Ummm5487 (Oct 15, 2020)

How about instead of ceos making 10 million a year they make 9 million and pay their workers better...thats where the money can come from

You sure can spot the members of the losing team on this site


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> There's positives as well...
> 
> If i owe $1000 to the credit card company, well if my wage increases from $400 a week to $600 a week suddenly it becomes easier to pay back that $1000.
> 
> If I have a mortgage already that mortgage payment magically becomes easier to cover.


Except your food costs Double.


----------



## Uber Panda (Jan 13, 2021)

DDW said:


> Blah blah blah. ...same argument everytime....why is it ok for everyone else's pay to rise but not minimum wage workers? All other jobs with higher pay have continually risen and it didn't hurt those jobs or their workers, so why would it be any different for minimum wage jobs and workers?


The next time you need technical support, ask to speak to a manager. Ask the manager if he's in Iowa or India. So, so yes, there are plenty of higher paying professional jobs which get lost / outsourced / "combined" and flat out eliminated as wage demands increase.


----------



## Driving With A Purpose (Jul 28, 2020)

teh744 said:


> Just wait until places cut back on hours and employees to cover the increased labor costs.


With employees (instead of contractors like us) companies can just change a lot of full-time jobs to part-time. They save a lot of $ that way as they don't have to pay benefits.


----------



## amazinghl (Oct 31, 2018)

observer said:


> The only way they would work is if they completely got rid of cashiers.


It's been here for over 3 years now.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/21/inside-amazons-surveillance-powered-no-checkout-convenience-store/


DDW said:


> If you can go get a job anywhere paying $15 an hour


There are places in the world that already have over $15/hr minimum. Why don't we look at their cost of living index?

Houston compare to Sydney.
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/houston/sydney?
Houston compare to San Francisco.
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/houston/san-francisco
Houston compare to Seattle.
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/houston/seattle?
Houston compare to San Jose.
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/houston/san-jose-california?
Houston compare to Washington DC
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/houston/washington-d-c?
I'm sure we can find more.

What have I learn from these? *Poor will always be poor NO MATTER what the minimum wage is.* As an individual, I must have the drive to acquire the skill and/or education enable me to get myself out.

Some people have a head start, most don't. Some people are born with it, most arn't. Yeah, life is not fair, what you're going to do is up to you. "I ain't got time to b i t c h about it, I got work to do" is my motto.


----------



## DerBundes (May 16, 2016)

DDW said:


> If the new $15 minimum wage passes, which is double the current minimum wage, then Uber would have to double the Driver pay rate to keep up and attract drivers...???
> 
> That would motivate me to drive again.


The rest of the country should follow NYC's lead on the matter.



amazinghl said:


> It's been here for over 3 years now.
> 
> https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/21/inside-amazons-surveillance-powered-no-checkout-convenience-store/
> 
> ...


THAT'S COMMUNISM!


----------



## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

observer said:


> Agreed, except that we can only employ a certain amount of skilled people.
> 
> We don't need 500,000 robotics programmers. We do need at least 500,000 janitors.


My messages are targeted to a person who wants a better life, not the philosophical. As a father of four and a 16 year HS basketball coach I had the opportunity to help many over the years for those that lacked someone in their life to give them guidance. I can't help 500,000 people, but I can help individuals. On an individual basis, be the robotic programmer (or welder, or electrician, X-ray tech, etc.etc.) don't be the janitor. Nothing wrong with being a janitor except you will be part of the working poor your whole life. (with rare exception).


Nats121 said:


> his thread is about a $15 minimum wage. Supporting an increase in the minimum wage to $15 does NOT mean you're opposed to personal responsibility.


Agree 100%. No where will you see where I am opposed the minimum wage increase. I think you're confused about what I say over and over is forget the minimum wage, it's not going to make your life much better and it is a way you will always be part of the "working poor". If you want a better life take charge of your future yourself because no one will do it for you. Aim higher for yourself and your family.

That's a positive message for young people so not sure how you can be negative. It is peripheral point related to the OP.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Seamus said:


> My messages are targeted to a person who wants a better life, not the philosophical. As a father of four and a 16 year HS basketball coach I had the opportunity to help many over the years for those that lacked someone in their life to give them guidance. I can't help 500,000 people, but I can help individuals. On an individual basis, be the robotic programmer (or welder, or electrician, X-ray tech, etc.etc.) don't be the janitor. Nothing wrong with being a janitor except you will be part of the working poor your whole life. (with rare exception).
> 
> Agree 100%. No where will you see where I am opposed the minimum wage increase. I think you're confused about what I say over and over is forget the minimum wage, it's not going to make your life much better and it is a way you will always be part of the "working poor". If you want a better life take charge of your future yourself because no one will do it for you. Aim higher for yourself and your family.
> 
> That's a positive message for young people so not sure how you can be negative. It is peripheral point related to the OP.


Agreed.

I believe in helping others and it brings me great satisfaction to see those I have helped succeed.

The problem is for one reason or another not all people have the ability to succeed.

We can't just leave them behind.

Yes, everyone should always be striving to be the best they can be and we should all be helping each other be the best we can be.


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## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Amos69 said:


> Here is an immediate byproduct of artificially raising wages. All those hard working lay people who were through their own hard work making just above the new minimum, get nothing and the other workers who failed to get raises and advance suddenly make the same money.
> 
> Hard work doesn't pay?
> 
> Being lazy, or slow, or a lackadaisical worker does?


Those hard working people would also see their income rise in relation to the rise in minimum wage


----------



## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

DDW said:


> Those hard working people would also see their income rise in relation to the rise in minimum wage


Not necessarily, those hard working people are in a higher tax bracket and probably pay more taxes thus reducing what they get overall. ..


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Driving With A Purpose said:


> With employees (instead of contractors like us) companies can just change a lot of full-time jobs to part-time. They save a lot of $ that way as they don't have to pay benefits.


They have already done that, even at current low min wage...your argument is invalid .


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## Kilroy4303 (Jul 31, 2020)

DDW said:


> Those hard working people would also see their income rise in relation to the rise in minimum wage


Not necessarily, those hard working people are in a higher tax bracket and probably pay more taxes thus reducing what they get overall. ..


DDW said:


> They have already done that, even at current low min wage...your argument is invalid .


I think they did that in response to Covid , so possibly your argument is invalid also


----------



## Seamus (Jun 21, 2018)

Kilroy4303 said:


> Not necessarily, those hard working people are in a higher tax bracket and probably pay more taxes thus reducing what they get overall. ..


From my experience the tax bracket is not the big driver. Many low wage earners are on Section 8 subsidized housing assistance. The amount of your rent subsidy is directly related to your income. You have to get a very substantial raise to make the reduced housing subsidy worth it. Otherwise, your smaller raise is eaten up by less rent subsidy so you don't even come out ahead.

This is why you will see only 1 person (like a retired or older person) on the lease and several others living there "off the grid". It's a shame that especially in high rent areas there is a reverse incentive to do a_ little_ better. It also is a reverse incentive to get married. It's pretty sad that these programs that are supposed to help people become very family "unfriendly".


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## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

tohunt4me said:


> Except your food costs Double.


Grocery stores might raise prices some, but


Kilroy4303 said:


> Not necessarily, those hard working people are in a higher tax bracket and probably pay more taxes thus reducing what they get overall. ..
> 
> I think they did that in response to Covid , so possibly your argument is invalid also


Not necessarily also applies to your comment....

No, bizs have converted many FT jobs to PT longgggg before covid to keep from having to provide health insurance....you know this very well so why do you make these pretend arguments...

Min wage : https://www.cnbc.com/


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## UStaxman (Aug 14, 2016)

DDW said:


> Blah blah blah. ...same argument everytime....why is it ok for everyone else's pay to rise but not minimum wage workers? All other jobs with higher pay have continually risen and it didn't hurt those jobs or their workers, so why would it be any different for minimum wage jobs and workers?


have they?
Most have not seen increases of more than inflation: 1 or 2%.... certainly not the 100% increase proposed in DC!


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## sodapoppoppopp (Jan 27, 2021)

minimum wage would be around 20 if tied to inflation which there is no logical reason not to tie it to it

anyway any "business" owner who actually pays humans $15 an hour should be ashamed in 1994 warehouse jobs routinely paid $10 an hour after a few months youd be at 11-13

a 50 a day ubi costs 1.5 trillion a year for 75 million people its the basics one needs to live
it would solve homlessness, reduce crime, and provide more freedom for this flex type of work since they wont force apps to pay minum wage

15 an hour is 600 a week after taxes call it 500 or less or 2000 a month
24K a year gross is not going to have anyone living large and if your business plan cant afford to pay that and profit well thats a bad business

everyone i know who works at walmart amazon hate it, they steal slack off and of course high turnaround just like uber etc, youd think these "companies" would figure it out theyll retain workers longer but they dont care they have an everlasting supply of desperate labor, i dont even do business with 1 company by choice anymore its prett much forced patronage id never shop at most of these places if like most i wasnt price sensative

working 40 hours at walmart mickey ds uber..... and still qualify for food stamps and welfare programs is backwords as ef
theyll spend 200K on kiosks that stay broke enrage customers and now are usless cuz you need a human to wipe down the covid filled screen every use is pure comedy too

that IS enough to rent a 1 bedroom, own a car and live a decent life nothing fancy, you cant do that at any thing less these days its not labors fault

there is no new homestead acts, you cant just plant a flag and exterminate brown people if you want their land or labor for free anymore of course unless you have millions to program it into an app but thats another argument

nothing wrong with an honest days pay for an honest days work but 1 shouldnt need multiple jobs for a 1 bedroom and transportation


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

sodapoppoppopp said:


> minimum wage would be around 20 if tied to inflation which there is no logical reason not to tie it to it
> 
> anyway any "business" owner who actually pays humans $15 an hour should be ashamed in 1994 warehouse jobs routinely paid $10 an hour after a few months youd be at 11-13
> 
> ...


They don't care about turn around with their algorithms they are learned it is cheaper for them to pay the average worker garbage pay and have a support group of human resources and management that are paid a decent wage that processes the new hires and people leaving, this is the good old USA and how it operates, the place is hard to care about.

The government will send billions over seas to places like Israel while we have people living in the bushes and US cities that are an embarrassment to the civilized world, they don't care about the little guy at all and then when one of their stupid wars come up they do everything they can to suck in the little guy to fight for them with patriotic BS, the place is disgusting to be real about it..........

People go back and forth all day about politics, minimum wage and welfare for the poor and we send Israel billions yearly and many other countries money also, Israel the largest welfare recipient of all and no one says a word, very screwed up society.

In the end it will all blow up in their faces, the government I mean and the people who support them, one day it will be a very socialized society that will have more problems than Venezuela, with growing pressure from the poor using violence, anarchy and the rest to get what they want.

Kind of like Obama care and all the crying babies who are so pissed that poor people have health care and don't have to pay for it anymore with the Feds picking up the tab. The only reason we got there is because of this US system basically allowed pricing out millions of people because of American Greed so they couldn't afford health care, and your warm hearted citizens and government didn't give a shit, so now they pay more than they used to and we are supposed to give a shit, no...................

It is a country that exploits the poor and not connected individuals for the benefit of the rich and connected if you know what I mean and they do more than any other country in the world by far, I believe those days are coming to an end..................


----------



## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

sodapoppoppopp said:


> minimum wage would be around 20 if tied to inflation which there is no logical reason not to tie it to it


That would create a circular flow and a never ending rise in minimum wage and inflation. Kiss the value of the dollar good by quicker than we already our. When the Dollar no longer is the world standard for currency we are screwed.


----------



## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

FLKeys said:


> That would create a circular flow and a never ending rise in minimum wage and inflation. Kiss the value of the dollar good by quicker than we already our. When the Dollar no longer is the world standard for currency we are screwed.


Do we have anyone who really cares?
If Uber gives enough to democrat causes their sins will be Overlooked
And we know the gop only cares about the richest 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354226013883031552


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## sodapoppoppopp (Jan 27, 2021)

FLKeys said:


> That would create a circular flow and a never ending rise in minimum wage and inflation. Kiss the value of the dollar good by quicker than we already our. When the Dollar no longer is the world standard for currency we are screwed.


no bodies screwed
they spent 3 trillion last year enough to give 150 million people $20,000 but they all got 1200 or less wonder where the rest went lmao?
uber blew thre 20+ billion
theres more 30 million more vacatnt homes than homeless people
funny yu think were number 1 still when there countries with 3 times our population
onlything america has a market on is weapons, murder, and stalking good thing hired killers will always be in demand

neverending?
LMAO
when was the last time minimum wage was raised?
I actually had jobs in the 90s i wouldnt even give one of these geeks my i.d for $15 an hour, Id happily do some side work for extra or part time but the pay way past insulting

If you own a businees and pay $15 or less you should be ashamed your basically telling you if it was legal to pay you less we would thats a predator or just clueseless greedy weirdo, that employee will steal or slack those few dollars an hours youre trying to save just dont say you dont know that

i dont care i pay people more nor do i respect theses comapnies who again i will lie cheat and steal from knowing thats what they do to labor, thats the circle i mean these apps think they can stael but a real one gonna steal way more back its called guerilla warfare lol so you want "readjust" another term for steal a fare from me o.k the next 5 ill hapilly scre over accept ride not move oh shuck they though theyd have a ride in 5 minutes its going on 15, long haul the next few drop offs, someone lost something was gonna return it but its worth just about or way more than the app stole from me today so its mine now

these apps are pure comedy in inefficiency
they litearally go out the way to program in less info and purposefully degrade the info you need whic is straight up evil since dusctractions can mean your life surrounded by metal and glass ging 35mph+ being awater filled meat bag and all

like im so stupid i dont know when im being stolen from and cuz youre a coder youre so smarts you think youll pull it off

cold world
3 BILLION rides 250 MILLION + hours of labor went to 3 people the 2 co founders and the current CEO
just on their 3 homes and stock cash outs
but $15 an hour is too much

they spent 200 million to avoid paying a legal wage in cali how many dollars an hour raise does that provide lol
they are STEALING from labor on a global scale they dont even enforce this law for apps

GTFOH

fu ck the dollar
bit coin owner since 2010 and something better coming.....


----------



## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

FLKeys said:


> That would create a circular flow and a never ending rise in minimum wage and inflation. Kiss the value of the dollar good by quicker than we already our. When the Dollar no longer is the world standard for currency we are screwed.


They need to start thinking about the little guy a lot more and not about their rich donors in the US government or what you said will happen 10 fold, there is middle ground with out going full socialized society and I just hope with all these far lefties and righties they get to that middle ground................


----------



## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

franksoprano said:


> They need to start thinking about the little guy a lot more and not about their rich donors in the US government or what you said will happen 10 fold, there is middle ground with out going full socialized society and I just hope with all these far lefties and righties they get to that middle ground................


I see other side too.
My father had a booth at the tradeshow in nyc way back.
A lightbulb was out.
I asked where I could buy a lightbulb.
Shock!!
You had to call a union electrician&#129315;
Sadly our system is totally corrupt on both sides


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## Another Uber Driver (May 27, 2015)

wallae said:


> My father had a booth at the tradeshow in nyc way back.
> A lightbulb was out.
> I asked where I could buy a lightbulb.
> Shock!!
> You had to call a union electrician


It gives substance to the light bulb joke:

Quiz: How many suburban WASPs does it take to change a light bulb?
Whiz: Two: one to mix the martinis and one to call the electrician.


----------



## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

wallae said:


> I see other side too.
> My father had a booth at the tradeshow in nyc way back.
> A lightbulb was out.
> I asked where I could buy a lightbulb.
> ...


I have seen this first hand working at a union ship yard in the Boston area way back in the late 70's, I worked in a machine shop and there were things that were pretty ridiculous with the shop steward watching closely.............


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

franksoprano said:


> I have seen this first hand working at a union ship yard in the Boston area way back in the late 70's, I worked in a machine shop and there were things that were pretty ridiculous with the shop steward watching closely.............


Billy Bulger


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

franksoprano said:


> I have seen this first hand working at a union ship yard in the Boston area way back in the late 70's, I worked in a machine shop and there were things that were pretty ridiculous with the shop steward watching closely.............


Yup.
I worked an iron foundry in Michigan early 70's.
I drove a fork lift truck.
We made transmission bell housings for Ford.

I picked up an overloaded bin. One of the pieces rolled out onto the floor.
I jumped down, picked it up and flipped it back up in the bin.

Union steward saw it and HAD A FIT.
I was in the floor managers office like RFN wondering WTF ...
The steward said: "You are a forklift driver. That means you drive a fork lift. That's all. You do NOT pick up metal. If you need something picked up you find a laborer, or a foreman. If I see you doing something like that again - I will fine you _large_. OK?"

That was UAW in early 70's.
They ran the shop, not the owners.

Shortly after that the Japanese took over the auto industry, and Detroit was shut down.
Wonder if there's a connection ...


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## sodapoppoppopp (Jan 27, 2021)

UberBastid said:


> Yup.
> I worked an iron foundry in Michigan early 70's.
> I drove a fork lift truck.
> We made transmission bell housings for Ford.
> ...


got a job at bp to be a cashier once, it was slow on the 1st day they told me to pick weeds out front i lit a black n mild and walked home

delivered pizza about 20 years ago they asked me to do dishes and fold boxes i was an adult not a teen that didnt know rights cuz that wasnt in the job description so i was the only driver who never had to do it, joint with every pizza to grow the biz those were the days felony chances nows its legal humans also tipped $2-5 almost every order in ancient history too now they dont even have a dollar for there chauffeurs on x tier lol xl tips quite regularly go figure

different strokes it was $6 an hour they lied to me if it was union and $12 an hour with benefits i might did the double duty

but technically if its not the job descrption ya dont do it, i mean if its in the way of the forklift or to move it so its not a sfaety issue for others, unions different each decade though back then you actually fought


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## teh744 (Apr 14, 2018)

UberBastid said:


> Yup.
> I worked an iron foundry in Michigan early 70's.
> I drove a fork lift truck.
> We made transmission bell housings for Ford.
> ...


&#129300; History has been known to repeat itself........
I remember in the early 80's when it all fell apart....


----------



## Asificarewhatyoudontthink (Jul 6, 2017)

bsliv said:


> And don't believe the garbage geologists spew about geology. And ignore advice doctors give concerning health.
> 
> It's a fact, all else being equal, when the cost goes up, the demand goes down. Likewise, when the cost goes down, the demand goes up. For example, if Chevy increased the price of the Corvette, less would be sold, all else being equal. Likewise, if Chevy decreased the cost of the Vette, more would be sold, all else being equal.
> 
> ...


You lost your integrity of your argument when you compared an "arts" field (economics) to actual hard sciences.

This proves you don't even understand that all the non Maths specific portions (and even then only the hard Maths not the projections and other "predictive modeling" portions) of economics is based solely in theory and an on going study of our "socio economic experiment".

That you go on to talk about "free markets", which you establish you believe, by what you say, means "unregulated and uncontrolled".
Sadly, what you really want (every single one of you "free market" parroting drones mean) is a Fair Market where competitors are in equal footings.
Because "free market" actually includes being able to take you by force and sell you (a person) because there "should be no external regulations" which is just utter garbage proven by every single one of you immediately arguing "um, no, that isn't what it means because you can't sell people"...

Just stop, you keep regurgitating the same tired econ101 bullshit and don't even actually understand, much less be bothered to research, what the words and terms you use actually mean.

****, you probably interchange socialism and communism as if they are the same thing and probably actually believe countries like China and Cuba are actually "communist" because they "say they are".



Kilroy4303 said:


> Well evidently you took away only what you wanted to take away from my posts. . . as you like to say "People like you" like to do that to support their argument in the face of obvious fallacies of their argument.
> 
> At what point did I say Major corporations couldn't support the MW increase. It will cause MAJOR corporations to increase prices that is true ( because as you put it. . .to pad their profits. . . become more cavalier in hiring and firing. .. )
> 
> ...


Wow, your reading comprehension sucks.

The gas prices weren't where they made their profits.
It was the price increases in their candy bars that they claimed they increased because the fuel cost for deliveries went up.




tohunt4me said:


> Diesel has Remained more expensive( although historically & traditionally LESS expensive) due to the Cost of Low Sulfer Refining.
> 
> All refineries had to modify during the mid 2000's.
> I did the new construction on a few of them.


Diesle prices fluctuate quite a bit. And they did, in fact, lower for several years.

So, with the total cost increase from when it went through the roof covered by just one box of snickers, why did you and every other shopper accept that the price on EVERY Product had to also go up.

This is the fallacy.

All of the other items that went up in price only went up because the corporations know the average Americans are so stupid they will accept that "it had to" even when that is proven false such as when the price increase of a single box of snickers off sets The Entire Increase In COSTS of delivery.

Your comment about how the cost of producing low sulfate diesel has kept the price of Diesle high(er) than some other lower price had nothing to do with the point that, the price went up substantially but then went back down but the adjusted "because our delivery costs went up" price increases on all the products in the store didn't go back down.

Oh and maybe we could include how stupid Americans are paying the same or more for products that have actually shrunk their value.
Today's Super Big Gulp at 7-11 is actually the size of the big gulp a little over 2 years ago.
Their small is now their medium as well...
Your chip bags got a weird shape change, hold fewer chips by weight and are more expensive...
And their biggest "marketing to idiots" hit here is that they changed what a serving was at the same time (still "one bag" but one bag holds less) allowing them to print a lower calorie per serving implying "healthier".


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

FLKeys said:


> That would create a circular flow and a never ending rise in minimum wage and inflation. Kiss the value of the dollar good by quicker than we already our. When the Dollar no longer is the world standard for currency we are screwed.


Everyone else gets COLA raises, including SS, do why shouldn't min wage people?


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

DDW said:


> Everyone else gets COLA raises, including SS, do why shouldn't min wage people?
> 
> View attachment 558149


Israel a rich country why should they get a dime, no reason, they haunt the Capital and White House with their AIPAC, they are the human form of a parasite.









[HEADING=3][/HEADING]
[HEADING=3].[/HEADING]


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> You lost your integrity of your argument when you compared an "arts" field (economics) to actual hard sciences.


OK, would you understand my point if I said ignore what musicians say about music. Ignore what dancers say about dancing. Ignore what actors say about acting.



Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> This proves you don't even understand that all the non Maths specific portions (and even then only the hard Maths not the projections and other "predictive modeling" portions) of economics is based solely in theory and an on going study of our "socio economic experiment".


This proves you don't understand what a theory is. There is no field of science or art that is completely known. In every field there is much to be learned. That doesn't mean we should ignore what we already know.



Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> That you go on to talk about "free markets", which you establish you believe, by what you say, means "unregulated and uncontrolled".


Do you think I'm an anarchist? If so, you're wrong. Governments are necessary to protect personal and property rights.



Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Sadly, what you really want (every single one of you "free market" parroting drones mean) is a Fair Market where competitors are in equal footings.


Are you kidding? Equal protection under the law does not mean equal footing. If you want to start a farm in central Nevada, fine. But don't expect equal footing with a farmer in Kansas. Some businesses will have advantages over others.



Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Because "free market" actually includes being able to take you by force and sell you (a person) because there "should be no external regulations" which is just utter garbage proven by every single one of you immediately arguing "um, no, that isn't what it means because you can't sell people"...


This is where you totally go off the rails. Free is the opposite of force. How can you equate freedom with slavery? Free markets mean two or more parties agree to a transaction. Each party believes they benefit from the transaction. I voluntarily trade my two apples for my neighbors two oranges. My neighbor voluntarily trades his two oranges for my two apples. No one should force the transaction. No one should force me to provide three apples for two oranges. Again, force is the opposite of freedom.



Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Just stop, you keep regurgitating the same tired econ101 bullshit and don't even actually understand, much less be bothered to research, what the words and terms you use actually mean.


You want to hear some Econ 465? I have an econ degree from 40 years ago. For the past 25 years I've worked as an economist. I calculate supply and demand curves. I determine if the market is in equilibrium and if not, why not. I get paid for my *opinion* in economic matters. I'm considered an essential worker in the financial sector. Let's argue about economic issues. I don't think you have a foot to stand on.



Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> you probably interchange socialism and communism as if they are the same thing and probably actually believe countries like China and Cuba are actually "communist" because they "say they are".


Because they say they are? No, it doesn't work like that. There are differences between socialism and communism. But both of those systems are doomed to failure. A central government dictating production and dictating prices cannot survive unless their populations are willing to be servants to their masters. Capitalism may be terrible but its the best system known. It provides opportunities and encourages innovation. It promotes freedom.

Read a book.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Asificarewhatyoudontthink said:


> Just stop, you keep regurgitating the same tired econ101 bullshit and don't even actually understand, much less be bothered to research, what the words and terms you use actually mean.


No offense intended ... but, where did you get your degree?
How advanced is it? (BS, MA, Phd)
And, what is it in? And, do you have declared minors?

I like to know the creds of people arguing science (and art).


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## 268Smooth (Nov 30, 2015)

DDW said:


> If the new $15 minimum wage passes, which is double the current minimum wage, then Uber would have to double the Driver pay rate to keep up and attract drivers...???
> 
> That would motivate me to drive again.


Don't worry about a measle $15, just make money like I do using this method. I have over $20,000 rides with Uber/Lyft together click on this link! https://ClixTrac.com/goto/?295977


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/amp/financing/mcdonalds-fear-rising-minimum-wage-disappears


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

DDW said:


> Everyone else gets COLA raises, including SS, do why shouldn't min wage people?
> 
> View attachment 558149


If someone gets hired at minimum wage and can't raise above minimum wage maybe they should reevaluate their circumstances. If the employer sucks move on find something better that rewards you for hard work. For those that have poor work ethics and expect to be given more pay suck it. You are the problem, you are not entitled to more if you don't put in a little effort.


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## Bojingles (Sep 18, 2015)

If minimum wage is a factor on whether you will drive.I don't driving is a good fit


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## freee.taxicab.tech (Feb 1, 2021)

FLKeys said:


> If someone gets hired at minimum wage and can't raise above minimum wage maybe they should reevaluate their circumstances. If the employer sucks move on find something better that rewards you for hard work. For those that have poor work ethics and expect to be given more pay suck it. You are the problem, you are not entitled to more if you don't put in a little effort.


why does everyone have to be a doctor or lawyer or bankster criminal?
why cant someone just provide 40 hours of labor a week and live a comfotable life without having to support criminal "companies" or collegges?

nothing wrong with an honest days pay for an honest days work, If a human puts in 8 hours a day they should be able to afford basic food clothing shelter transportation

why must one put in effort to support an evil 100% corrupt system
no bank you apply for would pass their own background check, neither would any auto maker, walmart, amazon, insurance firm, uber lyft, google, apple microsoft all found GUILTY in courts of law for illegal activity and fined as such

why do I have to work for criminals?

i can buy a degree like the full house chick why do I have to support criminal universities? to get a higher education to get a job working for literal criminals?

I dont want to support evil.
I dont want to spend 40+ hours a weeks working for criminal orginizations when I can prove that theyve been found guilty of crimes that if i was found guilty of would keep me from being hired

Dont even know how these "companies" arent all seized for organized crime at this point but why do I have to contribute?

personally i dont care i can make 100 a day a million different ways but if i wanted to contribute to humanity and get a part time or full time job to be active, i should be able to go to hundreds of places within walking distance and apply but since I know math I wouldnt even show em my i.d if it didnt start at $20 an hour

set it off came out in like 1996 they were all exicited about the plant over the fence that paid $15 an hour lmao, I was gettin $11 in 94 in highschool amazon/walmart non union criminals just stopped paying that last year lmao

people act like manual labor is beneath people
personally i dont care what one does but if you pay em 15 an hour theyll never rise above because 1 accident, injury literally puts em a year in debt and it takes 2 + minimum wage jobs just to pay bills

when all "companies" are basically colluding its hard to just find another job
but its all good you see whats happening keep the elite attitude up

15 an hour is actually a joke to anyone thats ever worked


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

freee.taxicab.tech said:


> 15 an hour is actually a joke to anyone thats ever worked


Or, as I told 'the boss' once .... "This is what I call a 'pretend job.' I pretend to work, and you pretend to pay me."


----------



## melange6 (Mar 10, 2018)

Seamus said:


> The minimum wage just isn't a solution to ever being able to afford rent in many places. Even at $15 an hour and working full time it won't do it.
> 
> Around me the worst, smallest, apartment is going to be $1500 a month (if you could find one of those available). Most are in the $2800 to 3200 range for just a normal apartment, and of course much higher for a nicer one.
> 
> At fifteen dollars an hour full time you will net about $480 per week. This will equal about $1900 a month so even if you can find the worst apartment around that doesn't leave you much to live on. This is why they call it "the working poor". You will spend your entire life "working poor" unless you acquire some skills that will pay significantly more than minimum wage or $15 per hour.


No, your math is wrong. There are 2080 hours in a work year. So $15/hour = $31,200/year. Believe it or not, there are cities outside of California where people could live relatively comfortably on that kind of salary.


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## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

Why shouldn't minimum wage prople get Cost Of Living Adjustments (COLA) just like everybody else does, including people on social security???


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

DDW said:


> Why shouldn't minimum wage prople get Cost Of Living Adjustments (COLA) just like everybody else does, including people on social security???


Because Social Security INSURANCE is an INSURANCE policy that the participants pay premiums on, and it is part of our contractual agreement that we get COLA. It's a retirement plan, not employment income.
If 'minimum wage people' want that - they need to negotiate that with their employer; whoever that is ... but, most retirement plans include COLA. Even the ones that 'minimum wage people' are in.


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

UberBastid said:


> Because Social Security INSURANCE is an INSURANCE policy that the participants pay premiums on, and it is part of our contractual agreement that we get COLA. It's a retirement plan, not employment income.
> If 'minimum wage people' want that - they need to negotiate that with their employer; whoever that is ... but, most retirement plans include COLA. Even the ones that 'minimum wage people' are in.


Ok. Now explain all the other non-min workers who get regular raises without asking.....


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

DDW said:


> Ok. Now explain all the other non-min workers who get regular raises without asking.....


They are valued by their employers to the point where the employer does not want to lose them. 
Reward. Usually based on their own drive to do a good job, learn and be useful.

It was only two weeks ago that I realized that there was a woman working under me who had not had a raise in a year. She has been taking on more and more responsibility. I realized this when it came time for a yearly performance review. When the review was over I broke the news to her that her pay was going up 23%, and will now participate in profit sharing.

I HAD to do that. I don't wanna do without her. She has made herself nearly indispensable.


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

UberBastid said:


> They are valued by their employers to the point where the employer does not want to lose them.
> Reward. Usually based on their own drive to do a good job, learn and be useful.
> 
> It was only two weeks ago that I realized that there was a woman working under me who had not had a raise in a year. She has been taking on more and more responsibility. I realized this when it came time for a yearly performance review. When the review was over I broke the news to her that her pay was going up 23%, and will now participate in profit sharing.
> ...


Ok, Now explain all those low performing government workers who get automatic raises...


----------



## Soldiering (Jan 21, 2019)

Seamus said:


> The key word you used was *were. *Sorry my friend, those days aren't coming back.
> 
> That hasn't changed in 100 years for government jobs.
> 
> ...


Nice post brother. For every one of you there are 10 sissys wanting too latch onto the govts teet.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

DDW said:


> Ok, Now explain all those low performing government workers who get automatic raises...


Socialism

Didn't you learn all this stuff in social studies in sixth grade?


----------



## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

UberBastid said:


> Socialism
> 
> Didn't you learn all this stuff in social studies in sixth grade?


You just made my point ...if everyone else, including low or no performance govt employees get raises without asking, so should min wage people via auto min wage raises....they need it more than anybody and get the least....


----------



## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

DDW said:


> You just made my point ...if everyone else, including low or no performance govt employees get raises without asking, so should min wage people via auto min wage raises....they need it more than anybody and get the least....


Oh, oh.
I see.
You're talking about the four letter word that begins with F that we can use here.
Fair.

You gotta say it with a whine; "That's not faaaaaaaiiiiiir."

There is a lot of things that 'should' happen.
You wanna make a change? 
You're a citizen, right?
That same Social Studies class taught you how a citizen can get a law passed.
It happens all the time.


----------



## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

https://www.businessinsider.com/tgi...pped-wage-phase-out-ray-blanchette-2021-2?amp
It's a good thing I don't eat at TGIF or else I'd STOP EATING THERE!

2.13 an hour is rediculous


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## ChattaBilly (Jan 10, 2016)

The companies that pay only minimum wage would pay you ZERO if they could get away with it. Don't work for them.


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## VaRudhaga (Mar 14, 2020)

_Tron_ said:


> I had a job in high school in the early 70s pumping gas. Minimum wage was $1.75. Gauged for inflation that would put minimum wage at around $11.xx an hour. By that measure minimum wage has not kept up.
> 
> But there are good reasons not to raise minimum wage beyond that. Kilroy explained it eloquently above, so I won't rehash. But I will give you one example: When minimum wage was raised here in California a few years ago McDonald's started installing self-pay kiosks.
> 
> ...


And CEO and executive pay keeps going up and you don't have a problem with that? Billionaires and soon we will have trillionaires and you still think people should earn peanuts to support those greedy folks? Low wages are there because the big chunk of the money is in the hands of a few people, give people wages that sustain a life.


----------



## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

VaRudhaga said:


> And CEO and executive pay keeps going up and you don't have a problem with that? Billionaires and soon we will have trillionaires and you still think people should earn peanuts to support those greedy folks? Low wages are there because the big chunk of the money is in the hands of a few people, give people wages that sustain a life.


Not to mention the billions we give Israel yearly a country that is wealthy, no one says a word except when you try and give the low wage earner a break, the USA and their screwed up society proving my point daily.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Something else to keep in mind.

Sometimes we fall "in love" with our jobs or fear getting a new job.

My son has worked in restaurants for a while from cook to cashier to assistant manager to back of the house manager. 

He loves cooking and someday wants to open his own restaurant.

He recently changed jobs because he didn't like the way middle management was overlooking certain behaviors (class action lawsuits will almost certainly occur) from employees.

So, he looked for another job and quickly found one, at lower pay but with the chance to learn new recipes and cooking techniques. 

Unfortunately, Covid struck and hours were cut drastically.

He held out as long as he could but decided he couldn't wait any longer.

The same day he looked for a job, he found one. Almost 50k a year entry level job at a warehouse.

He won't be cooking for a while but he'll be able to sustain himself.

Don't get caught up driving for Uber because you think you can't get another job. 

Get out there and find one.


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## bsliv (Mar 1, 2016)

VaRudhaga said:


> And CEO and executive pay keeps going up and you don't have a problem with that? Billionaires and soon we will have trillionaires and you still think people should earn peanuts to support those greedy folks? Low wages are there because the big chunk of the money is in the hands of a few people, give people wages that sustain a life.


I have no problem if someone asks for a certain salary and another voluntarily agrees to pay that salary. I do have a problem with someone asking for a certain salary, another voluntarily agrees to pay that salary, and a third party says that salary isn't "fair". No third party should force their idea of fair upon others. If it comes down to voluntary vs force, voluntary wins.

The CEO of "evil" Walmart had a base salary of a bit over $1 million but due to bonuses, perks, etc., he pulled in $22.1 million. Good for him! He wasn't chosen randomly. His track record was examined by the board of directors. The board offered him the salary and he voluntarily accepted. If he ran the company poorly, stock prices would drop and the board may make a change. If he does good for the stockholders, he may get a raise. That's how business works. If a Walmart cashier thinks the CEO's salary isn't fair isn't relevant.

Is $22 million too high of a salary? Not is someone agrees to pay it. If the Walmart CEO gave all $22 million equally to all Walmart employees, the employees would get an extra $14.73 per year.

The highest paid CEO was Musk of Tesla at $595 million. 100% of his salary was option awards. If he took his entire salary and discounted the price of each car made, the buyers would pay less than $1200 less per car. Considering some cars go for over $150,000, $1200 is relatively insignificant.

Musk took a big risk starting a car company. He could have lost a lot of money if he failed. So far, he's done well. He gets rewarded. If a car buyer doesn't think its fair that he earns so much, don't buy a Tesla. Don't attempt to force him to earn less.


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## DDW (Jul 1, 2019)

VaRudhaga said:


> And CEO and executive pay keeps going up and you don't have a problem with that? Billionaires and soon we will have trillionaires and you still think people should earn peanuts to support those greedy folks? Low wages are there because the big chunk of the money is in the hands of a few people, give people wages that sustain a life.


AMEN on that. It really irks me that people defend a low minimum wage so that the rich can get richer


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## 208476 (Nov 15, 2020)

bsliv said:


> I have no problem if someone asks for a certain salary and another voluntarily agrees to pay that salary. I do have a problem with someone asking for a certain salary, another voluntarily agrees to pay that salary, and a third party says that salary isn't "fair". No third party should force their idea of fair upon others. If it comes down to voluntary vs force, voluntary wins.
> 
> The CEO of "evil" Walmart had a base salary of a bit over $1 million but due to bonuses, perks, etc., he pulled in $22.1 million. Good for him! He wasn't chosen randomly. His track record was examined by the board of directors. The board offered him the salary and he voluntarily accepted. If he ran the company poorly, stock prices would drop and the board may make a change. If he does good for the stockholders, he may get a raise. That's how business works. If a Walmart cashier thinks the CEO's salary isn't fair isn't relevant.
> 
> ...





DDW said:


> AMEN on that. It really irks me that people defend a low minimum wage so that the rich can get richer


Anyone who does this is just like the left wing lunatic on the other end, a complete ****ing moron.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Newsweek: Sen. John Thune, Opposing $15 Min Wage, Says He Earned $6 As a Kid-That's $24 With Inflation.
https://www.newsweek.com/sen-john-t...ays-he-earned-6-kidthats-24-inflation-1571915


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## 💎reditthraway (Jan 6, 2021)

observer said:


> Newsweek: Sen. John Thune, Opposing $15 Min Wage, Says He Earned $6 As a Kid-That's $24 With Inflation.
> https://www.newsweek.com/sen-john-t...ays-he-earned-6-kidthats-24-inflation-1571915


*$6 as a kid* when houses are $54k average total? I'll take that. Average income is $17k (this is assuming including adults not just kids) and @ $6/hr full time that's $12,480 which isn't that far off what average adult makes...

https://modernclassics.info/1978_cost_of living/1978-Costs-2.html
Google tells me that average house cost $334k in 2020. With what? $15/hr as minimum wage? Oh wait no, he's against that as the 6 buck kid.


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## Uberisfuninlv (Mar 22, 2017)

[HEADING=2]Hopefully new $15 min wage will double Uber pay rate[/HEADING]

&#128514; &#128514; &#128514; &#128514;

No offense but I thought you were joking when you posted this. But I see you are serious. I want some of whatever you were smoking. Good stuff!

The only thing that will probably double is Ubers take per ride from us when this happens.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

&#128142;reditthraway said:


> *$6 as a kid* when houses are $54k average total? I'll take that. Average income is $17k (this is assuming including adults not just kids) and @ $6/hr full time that's $12,480 which isn't that far off what average adult makes...
> 
> https://modernclassics.info/1978_cost_of living/1978-Costs-2.html
> Google tells me that average house cost $334k in 2020. With what? $15/hr as minimum wage? Oh wait no, he's against that as the 6 buck kid.


He's only 3 years older than me and when I started working at 16, minimum wage was 3.10 an hour. WTH did he do to get 6 bux an hour?

I did earn 10 bux an hour at 18 but that was because it was a union job.

My dads first duplex cost him 17.5K in 1975.


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## Carlos1son (Mar 22, 2016)

DDW said:


> If the new $15 minimum wage passes, which is double the current minimum wage, then Uber would have to double the Driver pay rate to keep up and attract drivers...???
> 
> That would motivate me to drive again.


**** driveshare it's such garbage now compared to when it started you can make more money doing food delivery than moving people it's so sad


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

Carlos1son said:


> @@@@ driveshare it's such garbage now compared to when it started you can make more money doing food delivery than moving people it's so sad


They will fix that.
Are you ready?


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