# Check my math: Even if you drive 1/4 dead mile to 1 paid mile, you lose money



## JaxBeachDriver (Nov 27, 2014)

uber Support,

Thank you for getting back to me.

You did not answer my question about commercial insurance and vehicle for hire medallions, and the fact that one of your operations support employees told me that if those were required, compensation would adjust accordingly. They are required in Jacksonville.

Also, HOW are you monitoring the impact of the rate cuts? Can you tell me specifically? It seems as though Uber only looks at its bottom line. I think once uber realizes Uber makes more money and it can still lure drivers to the platform by advertising that drivers can make up to $1,000 per week, uber will continue to churn drivers for as long as it possible can.

Many "partners" are completely clueless about the indirect costs of driving a vehicle for commercial purposes, or maybe they're just desperate. I believe that a $40 billion company understands perfectly well the cost of operating a vehicle on its platform. To advertise the earnings and not the costs is misleading -- and that's what I believe Uber is banking on. I believe uber wants its drivers in the dark. I believe uber wants drivers who only look at gas costs and nothing else. I believe uber wants drivers who don't consider dead miles.

As far as momentum rewards are concerned, a 15% discount? What does that do? That hardly offsets vehicle costs! Shall I attempt more math? Let's just say maintenance costs are 1/3 of the total cost of operating a vehicle per mile. That means that out of that $0.575 per mile, $0.19 of that is the maintenance cost. Uber offers 15% discount (which I get anyway through Tires Plus friends and family program) on maintenance. So that's about a $0.03 savings per mile. Instead of $0.575, it's down to about $0.545 per mile driven. So now partners are up to $0.05 per mile! They're making a nickel per mile ONLY if they drove NO dead miles!

Even if they drove only 1/4 mile for every paid mile (which would be extremely low!), they'd still be losing money per mile! That would bring their cost to about $0.68 per paid mile! After Uber takes its fees, the driver loses $0.08 per mile! There's no way this math works out. There's no way in the world that these new rates would EVER be worth it! I KNOW this company understands that!

I KNOW uber understands this. Maybe instead of offering $500 referral bonuses to driver and referrer, you could offer to cover maintenance costs and/or gas.

These rates are unacceptable and unsafe!

Thank you,

JaxBeachDriver

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 17, 2015, at 10:46 AM, Y (Uber Partner Support) <[email protected]> wrote:








##- Please type your reply above this line -##
Your request () has been updated. To add additional comments, reply to this email.

*Y* (Uber)

Jan 17, 07:46

Hi,

Thanks so much for reaching out.

I appreciate your feedback regarding our rates and wanted to provide a little more insight into how we came up with them with careful analysis.

With more low cost options, we want to ensure we have competitive prices and that all riders can get affordable and reliable rides. While we're confident in our rates, we want to assure you that we closely and regularly monitor the impact of our rates on your earnings. Our goal is to make you busier and make your time online more valuable.

We understand that by doing more trips, vehicle expenses and gas costs will go up. In the past, we've found the slight increase in gas and maintenance costs that results from additional trips is less than the additional trip fares partners get, resulting in an overall positive impact on your revenue.

Additionally, we've devoted significant efforts recently to other money-saving programs for partners, such as our vehicle maintenance discounts through the Momentum Partner Rewards program. For more information on accessing these discounts, which can help save up to 15% on maintenance, check out the Rewards tab in your partner dashboard at http://partners.uber.com

Thanks again for providing us feedback on this initiative. We appreciate all you do as an Uber partner.

In order to get the quickest response from Uber, we suggest sending a new email/ starting a new thread when you have a new question. When you reply to an existing thread with your next question, you reply to the same person (who may not always be available to answer your question right away). Please view this link for further information:
https://support.uber.com/hc/en-us/a...gest=e7a574feca8f2de711358728bbb2a6ee51301f6e

All the best,

*Uber Support*

The Uber Partner App is now available for Androids and iPhones! You can download the Uber Partner App from the google play store for Androids.

uber.com | facebook.com/uber | @uber

*Me*

Jan 17, 05:50

Good morning,

Does anyone know how much it costs per mile to operate a vehicle?

According to the IRS, it's $0.575. At Uber's rates of $0.75 per mile, that's $0.60 after Uber takes its 20 percent. That means the driver nets about $0.02 per mile. Literally, 2 cents!

That driver only even makes $0.02/mile, even if the driver drives ZERO dead miles (unpaid miles, i.e., to the pickup, etc.). From experience and from talking to other drivers, most drive at a ratio of about 1:1, which is less than ideal. So basically, the mileage has to be doubled. That means it's costing the drivers money to drive. I understand that Uber is trying to combat that with having business pick up so the driver will drive less between pickups, but there's still not enough profit there for a driver to even break even!

This is not only a driver concern; this is a community safety issue. I first started with Uber thinking it was making my city safer (keeping drunks from driving, etc.). Now, though, I believe there will be drivers who will be unable to afford to keep their vehicles in safe condition (think bald tires, and so on).

I imagine Uber's response to this in the short term will just be to deactivate the driver. That driver is now much worse off than s/he started, yet Uber likes to talk about the number of jobs it creates.

Also, I know that right now Uber is offering guarantees, but we all know they'll be pulled just as soon as people get used to driving for these new rates.

In addition, I was told by D at partner support the other day that commercial insurance and medallions were not required to drive for Uber. If they were, he said, compensation would adjust accordingly. I sent him a link to my city's ordinance that clearly states that medallions are required and that commercial insurance is a requirement for the vehicle for hire application. Can Jacksonville drivers then expect compensation to adjust accordingly?

Thank you,

Sent from my iPhone


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Don't waste yer breath. None of the Uber employees we engage with can do anything or change anything anyway. We have zombification at every member level of this biz.


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## JaxBeachDriver (Nov 27, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Don't waste yer breath. None of the Uber employees we engage with can do anything or change anything anyway. We have zombification at every member level of this biz.


Once I've said everything I can possibly say, I'll start copy and pasting previous emails.

How else will they know drivers are upset and not willing to accept the rates? Oh, that's right, only if drivers quit. Which I did. But before that, I helped to advertise for them by sharing my uber code and providing 343 safe and courteous rides, only to be *devalued, deceived and discarded*.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Seriously their office staff is just as brain dead as the drivers who continue to take their abuses.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> Seriously their office staff is just as brain dead as the drivers who continue to take their abuses.


Well, I give them the benefit of the doubt and believe they have brains. Unfortunately they are paid by Uber to NOT use it. They are paid to just repeat what they are told. If they say anything different, they get fired, and Uber replaces them with someone that will do as they're told.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

JaxBeachDriver said:


> To advertise the earning


Actually *Uber Advertises Fares*, Not Driver Receipts or Revenue,
Not Earnings, and Not Gross or Net Income.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> Actually Uber advertises Fares, Not Earnings, and Not Income.


The grocery store down the street from me should do that.

"Earn $1000 per hour as a grocery store cashier!!!"


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## JaxBeachDriver (Nov 27, 2014)

When it says "make up to," I think most people interpret that as earnings. No?

Also, wow, interesting that they've now lowered it to $605 per week. That's the most you can possibly make, they're saying.

@chi1cabby


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## JaxBeachDriver (Nov 27, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> Well, I give them the benefit of the doubt and believe they have brains. Unfortunately they are paid by Uber to NOT use it. They are paid to just repeat what they are told. If they say anything different, they get fired, and Uber replaces them with someone that will do as they're told.


Right. And their nondisclosure agreements probably prevent them from telling the truth.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

*








Yes!*
Absolutely they've finally gotten around to lowering the "Upto $XXXX" after the Jan 9th Rate Cuts in their Borderline Fraudulent CL Ads!
*Their Own claims of Drivers' Net Earnings Increasing after the Rate Cuts have No Merit Whatsoever, yet Uber continues to Tell Bald Face Lies to It's Partners, and the Media!*


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> *
> View attachment 3898
> 
> Yes!*
> ...


There was a time in business that if you pulled that shit the Fair Trade Commission would put you out of business.

Not anymore. It's open season on dumb ass. .Gov could care less. The people that work there now are just filling in the space and collecting checks. A lot bigger checks than the average consumers they are supposed to protect from ILLEGAL or MISLEADING ads too.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

From: http://www1.salary.com/Taxi-Driver-Salary.html

The median income of a Taxi driver is $32.781/year, which is $630/week... and that's NOT IN FARES!!!!


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

UberHammer said:


> Well, I give them the benefit of the doubt and believe they have brains. Unfortunately they are paid by Uber to NOT use it. They are paid to just repeat what they are told. If they say anything different, they get fired, and Uber replaces them with someone that will do as they're told.


I don't need a CSR (giving reprinted CANS) to recount what Uber already has in print. That is Uber CSR/driver management issue number one. No, your stupid ass canned responses don't even come close to being coherent to the issues presented you dumb shits.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

And the *"Make Up to $1000/Week"* is now *"Make $660/Week"* in Orlando:
http://orlando.craigslist.org/search/jjj?sort=date&query=Uber


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> And the *"Make Upto $XXXX"* has dropped in Orlando:
> http://orlando.craigslist.org/search/jjj?sort=date&query=Uber
> View attachment 3901


Yeah, and it's STILL a lie.


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## Superunknown (Nov 15, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> And the *"Make Up to $1000/Week"* is now *"Make $660/Week"* in Orlando:
> http://orlando.craigslist.org/search/jjj?sort=date&query=Uber
> View attachment 3901


I couldn't help but notice that the Spanish ads are still advertising $1,000/week income. (smh)


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Superunknown said:


> I couldn't help but notice that the Spanish ads are still advertising $1,000/week income. (smh)


[Uber CSR]

That is because of the currency exchange rate.

[/Uber CSR]


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## Simon (Jan 4, 2015)

I think those Craigslist ads are from drivers advertising thier code. I know I would do it that way. I might even do that.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

So Uber_Miami must think that either the Spanish speaking are bigger idiots than the English speaking Driver pool. Or are the English speaking Drivers just lazy bums?
http://miami.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=uber&sort=rel


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## kel (Jan 13, 2015)

The advertisement is deceptive because they don't say, *you can make up to $1000* then lose $200 from 20% commission then lose from $50 to $100 depending on how many trips you take, then minus the gas, maintenance and etc. OH! and we may even cut how much you make with lots of price cuts because it's for your benefit. ;D

That "up to" is the most deceptive word because if you realistically not make more than $5 *profit* for working the whole week and complain... they can still say... well.. "up to".. your income can range from a negative pay and up to $1000 pay. ;D

ah, I hate their PR spins
- "Yes, the prices are lower but with our research and graphs, it shows you will make more money from more price cuts. This is for YOUR benefit." It's like a saleperson who tells you, he is losing money by selling you this product.


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## Tenzo (Jan 25, 2016)

If you are paying taxes on your Uber earnings, you are doing it wrong.


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

JaxBeachDriver said:


> As far as momentum rewards are concerned, a 15% discount? What does that do? That hardly offsets vehicle costs! Shall I attempt more math? Let's just say maintenance costs are 1/3 of the total cost of operating a vehicle per mile. That means that out of that $0.575 per mile, $0.19 of that is the maintenance cost. Uber offers 15% discount (which I get anyway through Tires Plus friends and family program) on maintenance. So that's about a $0.03 savings per mile. Instead of $0.575, it's down to about $0.545 per mile driven. So now partners are up to $0.05 per mile! They're making a nickel per mile ONLY if they drove NO dead miles!
> 
> Even if they drove only 1/4 mile for every paid mile (which would be extremely low!), they'd still be losing money per mile! That would bring their cost to about $0.68 per paid mile! After Uber takes its fees, the driver loses $0.08 per mile! There's no way this math works out. There's no way in the world that these new rates would EVER be worth it! I KNOW this company understands that!


Anyone who uses the IRS DEDUCTION figure to calculate their EXPENSES either never actually kept track of their own expenses or sucks at math.


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## Squirming Like A Toad (Apr 7, 2016)

BostonBarry said:


> Anyone who uses the IRS DEDUCTION figure to calculate their EXPENSES either never actually kept track of their own expenses or sucks at math.


Absolutely correct. If you are paying $0.575 per mile _above what you normally would to own your car_ you're doing it wrong. The standard IRS deduction for business travel is like $400-500 in some cities. Sure, it costs you that much if you are staying in the 4-star hotel, valet parking and room service. If you stay at the Motel 6 or La Quinta and eat at Outback, it won't, and you can still take the standard deduction. You know which one the stiffs at the IRS choose when they travel on business. But any owner-operator of anything has to be diligent about controlling expenses. I think some of the drivers aren't making any money because they don't have any experience as an owner-operator and are unrealistic about what they can afford to do and still be profitable.

I've seen many people fail in different kinds of businesses because of this. Rookie starts a company- what's the first thing he does? Signs a lease for a pretty little office downtown and spends a few thousand on new furniture and signage. No way. Makes you feel good for a little while maybe, but you had better be sitting on folding chairs in a garage when you start something if you want to survive.


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## William1964 (Jul 28, 2015)

Well it is your math unique to you. Your math will not affect my math. And our math will never be the same too many variables

In hypothetical situation the math does not add up to reality. If you say you're not making money I believe you


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## Flarpy (Apr 17, 2016)

It's always interesting when people here say the IRS "gets it wrong" when it comes to vehicle use deduction amounts. 

The IRS employs accountants with advanced degrees and who have access to tons of current and historical data. Each of them knows more about vehicles, depreciation and expenses than everyone on this forum combined. Plus, the IRS is incentivized to extract as much money as it legally can from everyone, everywhere. 

Do you think they just throw that 50-something cent per mile number out there from nothing? If the IRS thought they could lower that number, they would. It would substantially increase the revenue that the Federal Government receives. But they don't because it's at least somewhat accurate for most businesses.

Yet I'm supposed to believe some shmoe from the internet as to the true cost of using my vehicle for business purposes?


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## BostonBarry (Aug 31, 2015)

Flarpy said:


> It's always interesting when people here say the IRS "gets it wrong" when it comes to vehicle use deduction amounts.
> 
> The IRS employs accountants with advanced degrees and who have access to tons of current and historical data. Each of them knows more about vehicles, depreciation and expenses than everyone on this forum combined. Plus, the IRS is incentivized to extract as much money as it legally can from everyone, everywhere.
> 
> ...


Sigh. Nobody said the IRS is unrealistic. But the IRS does not have the resources nor the inclination to come up with a figure that is accurate for EACH car in each city/region. Instead, they take an average across the country and based on cars bought in the last 5 years. This does not provide an accurate depiction of one's true expenses because:

Costs vary wildly from state-to-state and even city-to-city within states. Gas prices, insurance prices, taxes, etc.

Costs vary wildly between brands AND models. A 2005 honda civic is never going to cost the same to maintain and repair nor will it lose as much value as a 2016 cadillac escalade, nor will it depreciate as much since there are about $70k worth of purchase price difference.

Know your own expenses. Nobody can figure them out with any degree of accuracy except you.


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## Squirming Like A Toad (Apr 7, 2016)

BostonBarry said:


> Sigh. Nobody said the IRS is unrealistic. But the IRS does not have the resources nor the inclination to come up with a figure that is accurate for EACH car in each city/region. Instead, they take an average across the country and based on cars bought in the last 5 years. This does not provide an accurate depiction of one's true expenses because:
> 
> Costs vary wildly from state-to-state and even city-to-city within states. Gas prices, insurance prices, taxes, etc.
> 
> ...


Exactly true. The standard IRS deduction is a work-saving move by the IRS. If everyone took actual expenses they would need a small army to review it. By giving you the standard deduction they let you screw them a little instead of screwing them a lot.

Also remember this is only a tax deduction, not a reimbursement. The people the IRS is really interested in drive expensive cars with a lot of insurance. The standard deduction might be a litte low for some of them. If it didn't make a difference it wouldn't make a difference what vehicle we drive and we all know that's not true, our profit comes from minimizing expenses.


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