# Drive a Tesla for Uber and make more money?



## DocBrown1985 (May 18, 2020)

Hi everyone - first time poster here. I am trying to gauge how many of you drive an EV. If so, is it a Tesla? Would you drive a Tesla if given the choice? What's stopping you? In theory, a Tesla costs more to operate than a Toyota Camry (gas, not hybrid). If you drove a Tesla, you would not only save on gas/maintenance, but also earn more by having a luxury vehicle?

Would love to hear from as many of you possible.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Welcome to the forum and brace yourself for the replies...
There are a couple drivers who do RS with an EV, they post here and there. Myself, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Tesla Model 3. BUT my ride isn't 'due' to be replaced just yet, so can't buy one for a while. BUT when it is time I'll look hard at Tesla. Problem is one of our cars has to be at least a midsized SUV.......

Is Model 3 luxury ie comfort level; that you would need to look for your market. I haven't, so no idea but will do so now. :thumbup:

edit: Yup, for SF Model 3 is rated for comfort. Open question whether that means more $$, tho. Mixed reaction here re: that.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

How reliable are Teslas and other EVs? How cheap to fix are they if they break? Can any mechanic fix them? How fast can they get fixed? In case of an accident, how fast can you get the Tesla fixed? Downtime in Rideshare costs $$$. Don't lose a month's earnings just because you wanted to save some gas money. Rideshare is business, not fun. Get the most reliable and cheap to fix business tool. I will take a 4 Cylinder Toyota over anything any day as far as rideshare is considered. You want good gas mileage, get a 54 mpg Corolla hybrid. Uber Select is dead as of 31st July. You want Uber Comfort? Get a Camry Hybrid.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Instead of driving a Tesla for Uber, read this story and enjoy it vicariously:

https://medium.com/@SteveSasman/how...0-000-miles-a-48-state-road-trip-6b6ae66b3c10
Then wake up from the entertaining and nostalgic dream, and do not use a Tesla for Uber.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> Then wake up from the entertaining dream, and do not use a Tesla for Uber.


sorry, I refuse.   :laugh: :laugh:    :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

Should these topics keep popping up with gas at $1.50?

Gas would need to crack over $4/gallon before we could even remotely consider a Tesla being cost efficient over a regular car.

Its no telling how expensive gas would need to be for a Tesla to be cost efficient over a hybrid.



waldowainthrop said:


> Instead of driving a Tesla for Uber, read this story and enjoy it vicariously:
> 
> https://medium.com/@SteveSasman/how...0-000-miles-a-48-state-road-trip-6b6ae66b3c10
> Then wake up from the entertaining and nostalgic dream, and do not use a Tesla for Uber.


Why is a car making it to 100k miles an article? The bar of reliability success is roughly 200k miles. :rollseyes:


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

It’s a pretty funny article if you read it as fiction.


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

I find it hard to rationalize the added cost of an expensive car over a lower cost dependable one when doing ride-share. Unless you are going all in on Livery as a profession. Which in that case I would probably go with a Suburban that runs across all platforms. Then start building a clientele picking them off from your Uber/Lyft riders. Just my random thoughts of the day.

Perhaps your market in the bay area can support the higher end platforms consistantly.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

TheDevilisaParttimer said:


> Why is a car making it to 100k miles an article? The bar of reliability success is roughly 200k miles. :rollseyes:


In a later article he made it to 200,000. It's a bad article, though. It's creative storytelling, clickbait, and motivated reasoning (he wants to drive a Tesla, and he wants to make money from selling a self-marketing dream).


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## Don'tchasethesurge (Dec 27, 2016)

Investing in Tesla for uber? Ha it will take one crash to fudge your plans. Buy something more practical. If you get long trips, you will constraint by charging stations.


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## TemptingFate (May 2, 2019)

If you can find a Tesla for less than $5000 then it may be a good idea. It's not economical to depreciate a valuable car for the pennies per mile that Uber pays.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

You'll be driving the crap out of the car while destroying it making the payments
In a couple years you'll have a pile of shit and having made 75k a year for it
IMHO (having done close to 25k rides)


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

TemptingFate said:


> If you can find a Tesla for less than $5000 then it may be a good idea. It's not economical to depreciate a valuable car for the pennies per mile that Uber pays.


A 2014 Tesla Model S P85 (that the guy bought used for $79,000) would be worth $29,000 today with 100k miles according to Kbb. Thats $50,000 of depreciation, or the entire purchase cost of two brand new Camry Hybrids back in 2014. But if you ignore depreciation then it doesn't exist - detach from reality and the savings are enormous :thumbup:


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> A 2014 Tesla bought used for $79,000 would be worth $29,000 today with 100k miles. Thats $50,000 of depreciation, or the entire purchase cost of two brand new Camry Hybrids back in 2014. But if you ignore depreciation then it doesn't exist - detach from reality and the savings are enormous :thumbup:


If you want to save a ton of money on cars, become delusional. There are no limits on your notional savings.

Make sure to avoid anyone who threatens to show you a spreadsheet.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

Nothing can beat a Hybrid Camry. Ask the vast majority of taxi drivers around the country. Hybrid Corolla is ever better.


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## TheDevilisaParttimer (Jan 2, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> A 2014 Tesla Model S P85 (that the guy bought used for $79,000) would be worth $29,000 today with 100k miles according to Kbb Thats $50,000 of depreciation, or the entire purchase cost of two brand new Camry Hybrids back in 2014. But if you ignore depreciation then it doesn't exist - detach from reality and the savings are enormous :thumbup:


Unfortunately many people "detach from reality".

We can all disagree on things but our reasoning behind how we reach our conclusions need to based on tangible facts.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

DriverMark said:


> Perhaps your market in the bay area can support the higher end platforms consistantly.


OR just OR RS is quite part-time and the vehicle happens to be your personal ride as well. Just maybe¿


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## Ubertool (Jan 24, 2020)

DocBrown1985 said:


> Hi everyone - first time poster here. I am trying to gauge how many of you drive an EV. If so, is it a Tesla? Would you drive a Tesla if given the choice? What's stopping you? In theory, a Tesla costs more to operate than a Toyota Camry (gas, not hybrid). If you drove a Tesla, you would not only save on gas/maintenance, but also earn more by having a luxury vehicle?
> 
> Would love to hear from as many of you possible.


I highly recommend you buy a new Tesla and drive it around for penny's on the dollar , me I just like to use my Toyota's that I paid 5k each for , but hey what's profit mean amongst friends .


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## Jperez3737 (Feb 16, 2019)

DocBrown1985 said:


> Hi everyone - first time poster here. I am trying to gauge how many of you drive an EV. If so, is it a Tesla? Would you drive a Tesla if given the choice? What's stopping you? In theory, a Tesla costs more to operate than a Toyota Camry (gas, not hybrid). If you drove a Tesla, you would not only save on gas/maintenance, but also earn more by having a luxury vehicle?
> 
> Would love to hear from as many of you possible,


Buying a Tesla for ridesharing is a huge mistake. Repairs and accidents with the long waiting process are going to affect your income.
Toyota & Honda are cheaper and easier to fix and even with high mileage, they will provide good service at a very low cost.


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## IthurstwhenIP (Jan 12, 2018)

Thousands of people buy new Tesla’s all the time...many more buy other cars new

with rideshare you do the same thing all those people do except make money too

or just ride the bus

cars and underwear should always be bought new


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

It's a matter of time before electric vehicles become economical for commercial use. I just don't see it for Tesla as they are right now. For commercial use, you want low initial cost, durability/reliability, low cost of repair, and parts availability. A good example of which is a used Toyota Prius/Corolla/Camry. A workhorse that is the right tool, for something with narrow profit margins.

Is a Tasla practical for Parttimers? Maybe... Then you really aren't exactly buying it for ridehail. 

Sometimes when people push a particular car they really, REALLY want, it appears there actual goal is primarily they are emotionally attached to a particular car, and seeking justification that it may be fit for commercial service. They just can't admit it.

Of course there are those who do it as a hobby. To each his own.


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

IthurstwhenIP said:


> Thousands of people buy new Tesla's all the time...many more buy other cars new
> 
> with rideshare you do the same thing all those people do except make money too
> 
> ...


Cars should never be bought new unless it is a specialty vehicle


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

IthurstwhenIP said:


> Thousands of people buy new Tesla's all the time...many more buy other cars new
> 
> with rideshare you do the same thing all those people do except make money too
> 
> ...


I would not buy a new car generally, but if I was getting a Tesla I might go new... only because for some absurd reason people want more for used Teslas than new ones, and it won't be eligible for Lyft Lux or Uber Comfort if it is too old. (3 years for Lux and 5 for Comfort?)

Even on Tesla's website, they have 2018 Model 3's used starting at $43K whereas the new 2020 Model 3 is only $40K. I mean, I get that the older Teslas have some upgrades, but really if you're trying to run a profit with rideshare, even the lowest cost $40K car is going to be questionable for long-term benefit over a cheap gas car.


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## DocBrown1985 (May 18, 2020)

Thanks everyone for the responses. I had a typo in my first post - I meant to say a Tesla costs _less_ to run than an equivalent new Toyota. I think you all got the gist.

So, for all your NEW car shoppers out there - not the ones buying $5,000 cars - would you drive a Tesla if it cost less than a Toyota on a per mile basis? Do you know how much you pay per mile when you include gas, maintenance, and loan servicing (or rental costs if you're using a rental service)?


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Muhammad D said:


> How reliable are Teslas and other EVs? How cheap to fix are they if they break? Can any mechanic fix them? How fast can they get fixed? In case of an accident, how fast can you get the Tesla fixed? Downtime in Rideshare costs $$$. Don't lose a month's earnings just because you wanted to save some gas money. Rideshare is business, not fun. Get the most reliable and cheap to fix business tool. I will take a 4 Cylinder Toyota over anything any day as far as rideshare is considered. You want good gas mileage, get a 54 mpg Corolla hybrid. Uber Select is dead as of 31st July. You want Uber Comfort? Get a Camry Hybrid.


By Design
In the Event of an Accident
The Tesla BURSTS INTO FLAMES!

SAVING YOU FROM COSTLY REPAIR BILLS !



DocBrown1985 said:


> Hi everyone - first time poster here. I am trying to gauge how many of you drive an EV. If so, is it a Tesla? Would you drive a Tesla if given the choice? What's stopping you? In theory, a Tesla costs more to operate than a Toyota Camry (gas, not hybrid). If you drove a Tesla, you would not only save on gas/maintenance, but also earn more by having a luxury vehicle?
> 
> Would love to hear from as many of you possible.


In theEvent of an Accident
Teslas BURST INTO FLAMES !

SAVING YOU COSTLY REPAIR BILLS.


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## TemptingFate (May 2, 2019)

DocBrown1985 said:


> Do you know how much you pay per mile when you include gas, maintenance, and loan servicing


You left out depreciation as a cost of operation.
How much does the resale value of your Tesla depreciate with every mile driven? If it's more than you make driving Uber, then you are at a net loss.


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## DocBrown1985 (May 18, 2020)

What if you didn't care about the resale value? What if you rented the Tesla? What if you subscribed to the fact that Elon says the car will get to 1 million miles no problem? 

Plenty of Uber drivers pay $199/wk for a crappy Nissan. Granted, it includes insurance and maintenance, but still $800 month + gas still works out to a pretty penny.


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## TemptingFate (May 2, 2019)

DocBrown1985 said:


> What if you didn't care about the resale value? What if you rented the Tesla? What if you subscribed to the fact that Elon says the car will get to 1 million miles no problem?
> 
> Plenty of Uber drivers pay $199/wk for a crappy Nissan. Granted, it includes insurance and maintenance, but still $800 month + gas still works out to a pretty penny.


If you don't care about the resale value then there's no need to calculate costs. Just drive Uber for fun. 
If you rent the Tesla, the owner will care about resale value and miles driven and will likely not allow it to be used for Uber or other commercial use. Plus Uber won't accept a car unless the insurance is in your name. 
If you subscribe to the fact that the car will drive a million miles, you can calculate your per mile cost and your profit after driving a million Uber miles. 
Even if you don't care about the cost of driving Uber, the costs are still incurred.


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## TomTheAnt (Jan 1, 2019)

Welcome, OP! Thread #2674 about Tesla for RS. :thumbup:


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

DocBrown1985 said:


> So, for all your NEW car shoppers out there - not the ones buying $5,000 cars - would you drive a Tesla if it cost less than a Toyota on a per mile basis? Do you know how much you pay per mile when you include gas, maintenance, and loan servicing (or rental costs if you're using a rental service)?


If I was going to buy a new car, I would get a Tesla. However, getting a new car for the purpose of rideshare does not make financial sense. That's like throwing $20,000 in the garbage.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

That was me in a rented Corolla from Enterprise. Enterprise had a deal with Uber at the time. They took $242 out of my Uber payout. I spent around $150 on gas. If you can get a Tesla for less than $400 a week then do it.
I chose the other way. I bought my own Corolla and paid it off in seven months.


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## losiglow (Dec 4, 2018)

My main reason for not doing it would be the depreciation on the car. If you found that it was possible to justify it by fuel savings, then it might be feasible. I just took on a $350 car payment but will save $200 in gas compared to my last vehicle. So it's sort of worth it. Do the math and see if it makes sense for you.

My other reason is that I sometimes go as many as 400 miles on a weekend night with a 12 hour shift. With a Tesla, I'd have to stop in between for a charge.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

losiglow said:


> My other reason is that I sometimes go as many as 400 miles on a weekend night with a 12 hour shift. With a Tesla, I'd have to stop in between for a charge.


You have to own 2 Teslas, and drive one while the other is charging! :thumbup:


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## DocBrown1985 (May 18, 2020)

You could charge for 30 minutes and take a pee, stretch your legs, ward off some negative health effects, avoid a stroke ...


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

Do what makes you happy man! You are not alone doing unique stuff. Watch that Audi NYC taxi, and Jeep SF taxi. They make less money than a Camry but they look cool &#128513; Though I bet they receive more tips.


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## doyousensehumor (Apr 13, 2015)

A Tesla is a luxury item for the middle class. Driving Uber is a job for the lower class. Instead of seeking the most efficient tool for the job, you are seeking justification of using an overqualified vehicle you are emotionally attached to.

But if the vehicle makes you happy, by all means do it. Part of the beauty of independent contractor is you can do it however you want.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Trafficat said:


> You have to own 2 Teslas, and drive one while the other is charging! :thumbup:


I hope someone does this and posts about it here. &#128267; &#128267; &#128663; &#128663;



DocBrown1985 said:


> What if you subscribed to the fact that Elon says the car will get to 1 million miles no problem?


Evidence and experience suggests that most Teslas are incapable of reasonably or economically being driven to a million miles, but I'm open to seeing data to the contrary. Why should we take the salesperson's word on this one? Musk has too much to gain from convincing people of this claim, and it is a massive claim to take at face value.


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

Just you know.... do the math and show us why you think Tesla is better. Not hard to plot usage of used camry vs usage of tesla. Then you will find how many miles you need to do on a Tesla to start being more profitable than camry. You'll be surprised


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

doyousensehumor said:


> Then you really aren't exactly buying it for ridehail.


.....exactly my point!! My current RS was non-RS for 60k miles. It is a semi-nice medium sized SUV. I'd never buy a vehicle just for RS, yuck.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

My mum knows someone who frequently drives a Tesla Model S for rideshare. From what I understood about the situation, it was not a good economic choice but that person did not seem to care. They just like driving their Tesla, and they want to drive people around.

If it’s what you want to do, go for it, I suppose. But we don’t need to talk about economics if it’s not about the money. If we think of a car as a “tool for a job”, a Tesla is a pretty inappropriate tool for most jobs, in our present day, mostly because of the upfront and long-term expense, but possibly also because of issues around available infrastructure, time to charge, and range. They’re nice cars, though.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

doyousensehumor said:


> A Tesla is a luxury item for the middle class


perhaps, but not the Model 3. Costs less than my Acura RDX. And yes, those of us who do this part time use a personal car that we picked, that among other things, would make us happy. Plus it was already 4 years old and had 60K miles on it already; that kinda defines perfect for RS. 
Could I drive something like my wife's precious prius for RS. No, hell no, nope, no way. Not. Gotta have standards, yeah? :thumbup:


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

If I was a full time driver, this is what I would get. Just like what I did in 2016. I would bargain the crap out of it and bring the price down to $19,000.

I paid off my Corolla in 7 months. I did a gross of over $200,000 with it and sold it back for $11,000 at 85,000 miles &#128513; Corollas are little tanks and have great resale value.

@Pax Collector This guy is another Corolla fan &#128513;


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## TomTheAnt (Jan 1, 2019)

Muhammad D said:


> I did a gross of over $200,000 with it and sold it back for $11,000 at 85,000 miles


You grossed over $2.35/mile (200000 / 85000) in a Corolla at X rates? 



SHalester said:


> Could I drive something like my wife's precious prius for RS. No, hell no, nope, no way. Not. Gotta have standards, yeah? :thumbup:


Hell yeah!!! :thumbup:


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

SHalester said:


> perhaps, but not the Model 3. Costs less than my Acura RDX.


A Model 3 starts at roughly $40k and an RDX starts at roughly $38k.

Tesla includes "potential savings" in its lower quoted price, which is not how most car makers list their prices.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

TomTheAnt said:


> You grossed over $2.35/mile (200000 / 85000) in a Corolla at X rates?
> 
> 
> Hell yeah!!! :thumbup:


SF was the best market. Believe it or not, but I put only 800 miles on my car in this week, including dead/commute miles. I consisently made over $2 per mile on my car.










This $2,800 week was of 1,100 miles on my car. We had great surge and promotions.








*







*


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## TomTheAnt (Jan 1, 2019)

Muhammad D said:


> SF was the best market. Believe it or not, but I put only 800 miles on my car in this week, including dead/commute miles. I consisently made over $2 per mile on my car.
> 
> View attachment 463928


73 hours. Ugghhh... Guess you gotta have those quests and promos to make up for the less than dismal tipping percentage. &#129335;‍♂


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

TomTheAnt said:


> 73 hours. Ugghhh... Guess you gotta have those quests and promos to make up for the less than dismal tipping percentage. &#129335;‍♂


Those app hours are a bit misleading, and the reason for that is because I was online on both apps. SF passengers are not good tippers.
On days when I felt lazy, I would switch to cherry picking. I used to wait for high surge 45s and 60s. Something like this. This trip paid more than $200.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> an RDX starts at roughly $38k.


hyahahahahaha. now go load up a RDX 2wd with the most expensive options. AND NO TAX deduction, at all. Who buys base model?


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

SHalester said:


> hyahahahahaha. now go load up a RDX 2wd with the most expensive options. AND NO TAX deduction, at all. Who buys base model?


Who would prefer to buy a base model Model 3, either? It seems like either of these are expensive. I imagine the Acura RDX might even be cheaper to own, depending on how it's driven.

I think we're talking about $40-50k cars here. Both are pretty expensive new for X/Comfort, though, unless you already own one that is paid for and pre-depreciated.


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## DocBrown1985 (May 18, 2020)

Does anyone know their fully loaded price per mile, incl. and excl. insurance costs (highly variable depending on how well you drive...)? 

Sounds like everyone agrees that if you take residual value / risk out the the equation, and EV would be of interest.

Is the upfront price what's holding folks back?


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Muhammad D said:


> Those app hours are a bit misleading, and the reason for that is because I was online on both apps. SF passengers are not good tippers.
> On days when I felt lazy, I would switch to cherry picking. I used to wait for high surge 45s and 60s. Something like this. This trip paid more than $200.
> 
> View attachment 463938


But those days are long gone. Both Goober and Gryft have cut rates and promotions to a point where I doubt anyone driving X is making $1,500 anymore outside of event weeks which were all canceled. Even here in Seattle market is has gotten tough. CT bonus of $3 and no quest at all with very limited flat rate surge now.

Drivers who know their markets were still able to make money in 18 and 19 but we have no idea what this gig will look like doing out of corona.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> I imagine the Acura RDX might even be cheaper to own, depending on how it's driven.


Not sure I'd take that bet. But yes RDX loaded out the door is north of $50k, which pretty much is my max for a car anyway. Model 3 would be a bit less, but sans full auto driving option. And as I've said before I'd never buy a car 'thinking' about how it would work with RS. 99.98% of my mileage isn't RS........Plus, gotta have a nice ride to offset the ugly precious prius in my garage. :vomit:


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

If the residual value is not of concern, why would the upfront cost be a problem? We can reason away monthly payments just as easily as we can other kinds of cost over time.

EVs make some sense in some cities for some people. Right now, the most economical and pragmatic choice for most rideshare drivers seem to be proven conventional hybrids or otherwise fuel efficient cars. There are other cars that can be driven, but cost-per-mile seems to be heavily in favor of used, cheap cars that get good fuel economy.

EVs are rarely competitive cost-per-mile, unless you factor out important things like purchase price and depreciation. I don’t know how it’s possible to not factor in the price of the car over time. If we’re just talking about “what can you afford to finance, insure, repair, and fuel?”, then why not drive a Porsche Taycan if you can make the payments?


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

waldowainthrop said:


> If the residual value is not of concern, why would the upfront cost be a problem? We can reason away monthly payments just as easily as we can other kinds of cost over time.
> 
> EVs make some sense in some cities for some people. Right now, the most economical and pragmatic choice for most rideshare drivers seem to be proven conventional hybrids or otherwise fuel efficient cars. There are other cars that can be driven, but cost-per-mile seems to be heavily in favor of used, cheap cars that get good fuel economy.
> 
> EVs are rarely competitive cost-per-mile, unless you factor out important things like purchase price and depreciation. I don't know how it's possible to not factor in the price of the car over time. If we're just talking about "what can you afford to finance, insure, repair, and fuel?", then why not drive a Porsche Taycan if you can make the payments?


Hey I will be doing a few hours of ridesharing in my rig &#128513; If I will be driving around at night listening to music, why not make some money? Once an ant, always an ant &#128513;


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

DocBrown1985 said:


> So, for all your NEW car shoppers out there - not the ones buying $5,000 cars - would you drive a Tesla if it cost less than a Toyota on a per mile basis? Do you know how much you pay per mile when you include gas, maintenance, and loan servicing (or rental costs if you're using a rental service)?


I drive an EV. A leased Chevrolet Bolt. I will be trading that for a Tesla Model Y in early 2022, if there is still a thing called rideshare. Later I will trade the Y for a Tesla Cybertruck.

Now, if it hasn't already been thoroughly pointed out, the question of it's feasible to use an EV for rideshare/delivery is based on what your financial goals are. If you are driving full time, to pay your core monthly expenses, than you are trying to squeeze out every dollar and an EV is not yet optimal, even with the fuel cost savings and the lower TCO (total cost of ownership).

I drive weekends only and thus am part time. I pay $430 /month for a 3-year 15K /year lease on the Bolt. I will put double the mileage on the car. Rideshare income affords me to pay for the lease, the 25 cent per mile overage of 45K miles, tires, charging, insurance, all maintenance (tires cell phone bills, etc.) and groceries for the week.

That was PRE-COVID!



DocBrown1985 said:


> What if you didn't care about the resale value? What if you rented the Tesla? What if you subscribed to the fact that Elon says the car will get to 1 million miles no problem?


First, the best deal to make an EV work was with the Maven rental service that was sponsored by GM. They had Bolts, not Teslas, but a Bolt is a great rideshare car on many levels. The Maven deal came with a free fast-charging card, and I met a guy who was Ubering full time and it was working. What he had been paying in gasoline alone was offset by the monthly rental payments on the Bolt. It was a wash. A true win-win deal. Alas, GM just turned Maven OFF. They were losing money.

Second, the Tesla million-mile car is not here yet. Expect it soon though. It's because the million mile battery is not quite there. Give it a year. But the rest of the Model 3 and the Model Y (preferable for rideshare over the 3) are engineered everywhere else for a million miles. It's still to be proven, but I know some about the design of the cars and Tesla has engineered them for longevity in many ways.

So, if you don't care about depreciation/resale value you're starting to get warm. An EV can certainly cost less to operate than an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) based car. That's there claim to fame. Maintenance on the latest generation of EVs is very low. No oil changes, no smog checks, etc. Reliability is up. All I've paid for in 40K miles on the Bolt is tire replacement. Never yet a warranty claim. You may not even have to replace the brakes on an EV thanks to regenerative braking, which slows the car as it charges the battery when you slow or stop.

The biggest variable with EV TCO is _where you charge_. Charge at home from solar panels and energy costs are near zero (excluding amortization on solar system). Charge from a 240V outlet in your garage overnight, and energy cost is very low. Charge at the public fast-charging stations and you may be paying more than gasoline.



DocBrown1985 said:


> Does anyone know their fully loaded price per mile, incl. and excl. insurance costs (highly variable depending on how well you drive...)?


Again, that will vary according to where you charge. So don't take any answer from here as gospel.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

_Tron_ said:


> I drive an EV. A leased Chevrolet Bolt. I will be trading that for a Tesla Model Y in early 2022, if there is still a thing called rideshare. Later I will trade the Y for a Tesla Cybertruck.
> 
> Now, if it hasn't already been thoroughly pointed out, the question of it's feasible to use an EV for rideshare/delivery is based on what your financial goals are. If you are driving full time, to pay your core monthly expenses, than you are trying to squeeze out every dollar and an EV is not yet optimal, even with the fuel cost savings and the lower TCO (total cost of ownership).
> 
> ...


Does the lease company know you're using the vehicle for rideshare/commercial? How does it work?


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Muhammad D said:


> Does the lease company know you're using the vehicle for rideshare/commercial? How does it work?


I followed a "Don't ask don't tell" policy. They didn't ask, and I didn't tell.

Insurance of course is different. I went with Mercury and told them I was Ubering. It's a few bucks extra for their rider.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

_Tron_ said:


> I followed a "Don't ask don't tell" policy. They didn't ask, and I didn't tell.
> 
> Insurance of course is different. I went with Mercury and told them I was Ubering. It's a few bucks extra for their rider.


A close friend of mine got into a 3 car accident at SFO. He was online with Uber, and he got rear ended by a Lyft driver and his car was pushed to hit the car in front. It was 100% fault of that Lyft driver. SFO Police, 3 personal insurance companies, James River, and Lyft's insurance got involved. His car was totaled. Lyft's insurance wrote a check to Toyota financial to pay off the car, and gave him the rest of the money. His car was worth more than he owed on it. Mercury was his Personal Insurance and knew about the accident. DMV also received the accident report.
I'm just wondering that in such a scenario, how your not telling the lease company could affect you in some way. What problems could arise? I don't think I see any problem there. But just be safe out there. In this gig, the question is not whether accidents will happen or not. The question is when accidents will happen.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Muhammad D said:


> I'm just wondering that in such a scenario, how your not telling the lease company could affect you in some way. What problems could arise? I don't think I see any problem there.


If you're leasing a car then of course you have to tell the leasing company about any crashes. They'll be expecting you to return a car at the end of the lease, not a crashed wreck. Also, the insurance will not pay the driver for the car; they will pay the owner of the car, which is the leasing company.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> If you're leasing a car then of course you have to tell the leasing company about any crashes. They'll be expecting you to return a car at the end of the lease, not a crashed wreck. Also, the insurance will not pay the driver for the car; they will pay the owner of the car, which is the leasing company.


Yes. But by telling I meant letting the lease company know that you were doing rideshare. I should have been clear. Suppose my friend's car was leased and not financed. What could have happened? Lease company would get their money. Right? How would it work? Sorry I am bad with leasing concepts.

Let's put it this way. In what scenario you could be in trouble for not letting the lease company that you were using the vehicle for rideshare at the time of the accident? What happens to the lease agreement and lease company's profit if the car gets totalled? That is not a pleasant scenario for the lease company. They can come after you for something. Right?


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## Johnny Mnemonic (Sep 24, 2019)

I don't have enough in the bank to pay cash, and I don't leverage depreciating assets. 

Well, actually, I don't leverage anything. But definitely not a car.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> If you're leasing a car then of course you have to tell the leasing company about any crashes. They'll be expecting you to return a car at the end of the lease, not a crashed wreck. Also, the insurance will not pay the driver for the car; they will pay the owner of the car, which is the leasing company.


That makes sense. But in reality not everyone (and probably very few) reports an accident to the leasing company unless the car is totaled. The way I've seen it work (the owner of a body shop explained this to me, so that you don't just think I'm pulling this outta may ass) is when you return a leased car the lessor looks up the car on Carfax to determine if its been in the body shop. They then have been reported to try and nick the lessee for any body repairs based on something they call "Dimished value". This can be pulled on someone that returns the car in perfect condition with no structural damage residue from the wreck. It's just another dealer scam.

The consumer then has to fight the leasing company. In the example the body shop owner said the lessee prevailed, but only after much wailing and gnashing of teeth. My leased Prius suffered 1500 in body damage while driving for Uber in 2016 and I just paid out of pocket for the repair to avoid DV nonsense and a rate increase.

It is "wear and tear", plus the threat of diminished value that are the hidden dangers in leasing a vehicle. Obviously I feel the risk is worthwhile, but not everyone leasing a vehicle is aware of those traps. By the way, I learned a little trick to avoid getting into an argument with the dealer when returning a leased vehicle over the dealers definition of "wear and tear". Don't turn the vehicle in to the dealer! Instead use it as a trade-in for your new ride. Dealers are often so desperate to get a walk-in to make a purchase they will buy even a leased vehicle off you. I was offered just that when I window shopped the Bolt and had 6 mos worth of payments on the Prius. The Chevy dealer asked for the payoff amount on the Prius and that was that. In short, they gave me an offer I couldn't refuse.



Muhammad D said:


> Yes. But by telling I meant letting the lease company know that you were doing rideshare. I should have been clear. Suppose my friend's car was leased and not financed. What could have happened? Lease company would get their money. Right? How would it work? Sorry I am bad with leasing concepts.


I knew what you meant. But quite simply, when the dealer went over the lease terms, and all the specifics dos and don'ts, no mention was made of rideshare. It is on that basis I would fight any attempt by the dealer to make trouble. But stop and think about it Muhammad D, you don't need anything from the leasing company. They need something from you! They need the vehicle paid off. And that's handled by the insurance company. Who you has previously told what the car was being used for.

All the leasing company cares about is getting the vehicle back in one piece, within the mileage agreement, with reasonable wear and tear. OR, paid off in full if it is totaled.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

_Tron_ said:


> That makes sense. But in reality not everyone (and probably very few) reports an accident to the leasing company unless the car is totaled. The way I've seen it work (the owner of a body shop explained this to me, so that you don't just think I'm pulling this outta may ass) is when you return a leased car the lessor looks up the car on Carfax to determine if its been in the body shop. They then have been reported to try and nick the lessee for any body repairs based on something they call "Dimished value". This can be pulled on someone that returns the car in perfect condition with no structural damage residue from the wreck. It's just another dealer scam.
> 
> The consumer then has to fight the leasing company. In the example the body shop owner said the lessee prevailed, but only after much wailing and gnashing of teeth. My leased Prius suffered 1500 in body damage while driving for Uber in 2016 and I just paid out of pocket for the repair to avoid DV nonsense and a rate increase.
> 
> ...


I have never leased a car and honestly speaking I don't know much about it. But the only thing that I know is leasing is like long term renting. Don't you think the leasing company will be passed if the car got totaled before you paid them rent for 36 months? If it happened because of an accident, fine. But if the accident happened because of the commercial use of the vehicle, then don't you think the leasing company will be pissed? Because they just got the value of the car, but not the amount of rent that you were supposed to pay them for 36 months. They didn't make any profit out of you.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Muhammad D said:


> I have never leased a car and honestly speaking I don't know much about it. But the only thing that I know is leasing is like long term renting. Don't you think the leasing company will be passed if the car got totaled before you paid them rent for 36 months? If it happened because of an accident, fine. But if the accident happened because of the commercial use of the vehicle, then don't you think the leasing company will be pissed? Because they just got the value of the car, but not the amount of rent that you were supposed to pay them for 36 months. They didn't make any profit out of you.


It doesn't work that way though. Leasing is not renting. The time commitment is different. If the car was totaled 1 year into a 3-year lease the insurance company pays off the full amount of the lease stipulated in the contract. All 36 mos. So to the contrary, the leasing company might just be pleased because they made a full profit on you, in less time than planned, and if you lease another car they start profiting from that deal too!


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## Ubercadabra (Oct 20, 2019)

EV’s are expensive upfront & you won’t get that money back in fuel savings


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

_Tron_ said:


> It doesn't work that way though. Leasing is not renting. The time commitment is different. If the car was totaled 1 year into a 3-year lease the insurance company pays off the full amount of the lease stipulated in the contract. All 36 mos. So to the contrary, the leasing company might just be pleased because they made a full profit on you, in less time than planned, and if you lease another car they start profiting from that deal too!


I believe the lease money that you pay every month, includes depreciation for certain mileage on the car, some interest, some other charges, plus a RENT(PROFIT) amount. If you get their car totaled because of commercial use, I think they will sue you for that rent amount for the 36 month agreement of the lease. That is their profit. You deprive them of their profit by getting the car totalled due to ridesharing in less than 36 months according to lease agreement. That car is their property and they make sure they minimize risk of accidents so that they make profit out of you. Driving for Uber will put their property at maximum risk. I can't believe they could tolerate that. They charge you for mileage and not charge you for commercial use. I don't buy that.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Been using an EREV, a Chevrolet VOLT for 3 years doing Ride-hail. I've done well by it. It's just over a penny a kilometer to drive (that's fuel+maintenance) and Pax have been surprisingly gentle on the interior.

https://uberpeople.net/threads/this-is-how-an-electric-vehicle-can-work-for-rideshare.290805/
While I do not own one (yet), for the cost, the Chevrolet BOLT is the best vehicle (shape, interior, etc.) for doing ridehail.



Ubercadabra said:


> EV's are expensive upfront & you won't get that money back in fuel savings


You will over 200,000km, in combination with maintenance and fuel


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## TBone (Jan 19, 2015)

I want one but don't have the down payment for a Model Y. Figure I would save $300 a month in gas and another $60 for oil changes so a $770 payment would realistically be $400. It's honestly the only car I feel one can purchase and be able to drive for 5-6 years and be confident the engine wont blow up after driving 50k miles a year. Also, I read somewhere that Lyft gives preference to EV's.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Muhammad D said:


> Yes. But by telling I meant letting the lease company know that you were doing rideshare. I should have been clear. Suppose my friend's car was leased and not financed. What could have happened? Lease company would get their money. Right? How would it work? Sorry I am bad with leasing concepts.
> 
> Let's put it this way. In what scenario you could be in trouble for not letting the lease company that you were using the vehicle for rideshare at the time of the accident? What happens to the lease agreement and lease company's profit if the car gets totalled? That is not a pleasant scenario for the lease company. They can come after you for something. Right?


There may be a clause in the lease agreement stating that the car is not to be used for commercial purposes. However, if the car is totalled and the leasing company receives the payoff amount from an insurer then they won't have lost any money and therefore couldn't claim anything against the lessee.

One potential issue is that the leasing company may try to be greedy and ask for more than the payoff figure. I was leasing a car when it was totalled on an Uber ride. Uber's insurance valued the car at $22,500. The lessor, Santander, said that the payoff figure for the car was $21,000. Santander felt that it should receive the entire $22,500 payout amount from the insurance, and they instructed the insurance to pay the entire amount to them, on the basis that they owned the car. I told Santander to piss off - all they were going to get was the payoff figure. The rest was mine. I was the insured, not Santander. Santander only held a lien for the amount owing on the car.

I told the insurance to write two separate checks - one to Santander for their share and another one for me for the remaining $1,500, which they did.


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## Stas2007 (Aug 10, 2016)

Tesla for uber is just dum, buy a Prius and call it a day. If you want to do lux ride, than you need a suburban and not a tesla.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> There may be a clause in the lease agreement stating that the car is not to be used for commercial purposes. However, if the car is totalled and the leasing company receives the payoff amount from an insurer then they won't have lost any money and therefore couldn't claim anything against the lessee.
> 
> One potential issue is that the leasing company may try to be greedy and ask for more than the payoff figure. I was leasing a car when it was totalled on an Uber ride. Uber's insurance valued the car at $22,500. The lessor, Santander, said that the payoff figure for the car was $21,000. Santander felt that it should receive the entire $22,500 payout amount from the insurance, and they instructed the insurance to pay the entire amount to them, on the basis that they owned the car. I told Santander to piss off - all they were going to get was the payoff figure. The rest was mine. I was the insured, not Santander. Santander only held a lien for the amount owing on the car.
> 
> I told the insurance to write two separate checks - one to Santander for their share and another one for me for the remaining $1,500, which they did.


Oh I see now. I was wrong about lease. So that payoff amount is the money that if you pay to the leasing company, the car will be yours, like a financed car? In that case, the payoff amount includes their profit so they're not losing anything.
But why do the leasing companies don't like the idea of their car being used for commercial purposes?


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

At a local Tesla Owners' Club meeting, the subject of depreciation cost caused the customary response among attendees:


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## mbd (Aug 27, 2018)

DocBrown1985 said:


> Hi everyone - first time poster here. I am trying to gauge how many of you drive an EV. If so, is it a Tesla? Would you drive a Tesla if given the choice? What's stopping you? In theory, a Tesla costs more to operate than a Toyota Camry (gas, not hybrid). If you drove a Tesla, you would not only save on gas/maintenance, but also earn more by having a luxury vehicle?
> 
> Would love to hear from as many of you possible.


Not here yet




https://www.google.com/amp/s/electr...-of-affordable-electric-cars-under-22000/amp/


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Just be aware that Biz Insider has a bit of a grudge against Tesla. Not an unbiased source.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

The Gift of Fish said:


> the subject of depreciation cost caused the customary response among attendees:


before the Model 3 those who could afford the S and X really don't care about a non-cash expense that only rears its head when you go to trade-in or sell. And still, they wouldn't care. Kinda the reason they can afford a near $100k car.......


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## IthurstwhenIP (Jan 12, 2018)

You want to get two imho. One for personal and one for Uber.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

The Gift of Fish said:


> At a local Tesla Owners' Club meeting, the subject of depreciation cost caused the customary response among attendees:
> 
> View attachment 464037


Sorry, gotta nick you again Fish. The Model 3 is above avererage in holding its value. That graphic may make a good alt Pink Floyd cover but it doesn't represent the truth...






https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/18/tesla-model-3-has-least-amount-of-depreciation/
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/2...n-but-kelley-blue-book-awards-sort-of-fed-up/


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## ggrezzi (Mar 14, 2019)

Muhammad D said:


> How reliable are Teslas and other EVs? How cheap to fix are they if they break? Can any mechanic fix them? How fast can they get fixed? In case of an accident, how fast can you get the Tesla fixed? Downtime in Rideshare costs $$$. Don't lose a month's earnings just because you wanted to save some gas money. Rideshare is business, not fun. Get the most reliable and cheap to fix business tool. I will take a 4 Cylinder Toyota over anything any day as far as rideshare is considered. You want good gas mileage, get a 54 mpg Corolla hybrid. Uber Select is dead as of 31st July. You want Uber Comfort? Get a Camry Hybrid.


Fully agree.....just ADD Honda Civic and Accord hybrid models to your lists. HOnda's are AS RELIABLE, if not better, than Toyotas and certainly much more fun to drive!


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Muhammad D said:


> Oh I see now. I was wrong about lease. So that payoff amount is the money that if you pay to the leasing company, the car will be yours, like a financed car? In that case, the payoff amount includes their profit so they're not losing anything.


I think you're getting closer, and I see where I stated it incompletely. There are two payoff figures. The *payoff amount* is basically the amount still due on the lease.

Then there is the residual amount. The amount to purchase the vehicle outright. The residual is listed in the contract, but that figure assumes the monthly lease payments have been completed to term. The residual can be calculated at any time during the lease, to account for payments made so far. _That_ is the amount the leasing company wants if the car is totaled, or in my case with trading in the Prius early for the Bolt, the car simply wasn't returned. The Chevy dealer paid off the lease and the residual.

I hope that helps more than confuses. You were right to doubt me earlier. ;>


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

_Tron_ said:


> Sorry, gotta nick you again Fish. The Model 3 is above avererage in holding its value.


You missed the context of my post. The context was that of Tesla owners claiming that their cars cost pennies per mile to run, completely ignoring the cost of depreciation when they produce their analyses. It had nothing to do with comparing Tesla depreciation to other cars.

A great example of this is the article posted in post 2 of this thread. In the section entitled "Total Cost of Ownership", this cost is missing entirely.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

ggrezzi said:


> Fully agree.....just ADD Honda Civic and Accord hybrid models to your lists. HOnda's are AS RELIABLE, if not better, than Toyotas and certainly much more fun to drive!


Hondas with naturally aspirated engines, yes. Turbo charged Accord is obviously more fun to drive than a V6 Camry. But V6 Camry will last longer. Turbos are not good for rideshare. Honda was a motorcycle company. They know how to make good engines. Just stay away from their Turbos lol. Turbos are similar to cows being overmilked in third world countries lol. Those cows dont live long. Turbos sucking V8 power out of a V6 engine will make their lives short.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

The Gift of Fish said:


> You missed the context of my post. The context was that of Tesla owners claiming that their cars cost pennies per mile to run, completely ignoring the cost of depreciation when they produce their analyses. It had nothing to do with comparing Tesla depreciation to other cars.
> 
> A great example of this is the article posted in post 2 of this thread. In the section entitled "Total Cost of Ownership", this cost is missing entirely.


For those of us who, "DRIVE OUR CARS INTO THE GROUND," Resale is not a major issue, as we have extracted all the value of the car by USING IT, rather than selling it as a depreciated asset.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> For those of us who, "DRIVE OUR CARS INTO THE GROUND," Resale is not a major issue, as we have extracted all the value of the car by USING IT, rather than selling it as a depreciated asset.


All the more reason to get a cheaper used car over an expensive new car. If depreciation is assumed to be near total, then that should make a driver even more sensitive to the initial purchase price and any interest paid on a larger loan for it.

Not focusing on depreciation also increases the value of a car's reliability and cheapness to repair, since that is a large part of the cost of ownership if the length of ownership is limited by the car's longevity and worthiness to repair. Old luxury cars are less valuable because as "money pits", they become far less worth repairing towards the end of their lives compared to cheaper cars with cheaper parts. Even if they _are_ reliable (some are, some aren't), they become more expensive to run over time, even at the end of the depreciation curve where they aren't worth much.

Whether one focuses on depreciation or not, all signs point to choosing Hondas and Toyotas (and a few other economical and reliable brands) when balancing all of these considerations.


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

DocBrown1985 said:


> Does anyone know their fully loaded price per mile, incl. and excl. insurance costs (highly variable depending on how well you drive...)?
> 
> Sounds like everyone agrees that if you take residual value / risk out the the equation, and EV would be of interest.
> 
> Is the upfront price what's holding folks back?


Car A costs ya $50,000 and can do 500,000 miles. Running cost 0.12/kWh, 75kWh per charge, 260 miles per charge, that is $0.034/mi, so cost to do 500,000 miles is $17,000, so initial cost plus running cost is $67,000 or 0.134/mile.
Car B costs $20,000 and can do 200,000 miles. 35mpg with gas price of $1.85/gal, that's 0.053/mi. Oil at 10,000 mi intervals for $50, that's 0.005/mi . So total cost 20,000 + 10,600 + 1,000 = 31,600 or 0.158/mile . 
Back of the envelope calculations show you are better off driving tesla by about 15%. Feel free to modify the above and recalculate if you don't agree with any numbers I used.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

dmoney155 said:


> Car A costs ya $50,000 and can do 500,000 miles. Running cost 0.12/kWh, 75kWh per charge, 260 miles per charge, that is $0.034/mi, so cost to do 500,000 miles is $17,000, so initial cost plus running cost is $67,000 or 0.134/mile.
> Car B costs $20,000 and can do 200,000 miles. 35mpg with gas price of $1.85/gal, that's 0.053/mi. Oil at 10,000 mi intervals for $50, that's 0.005/mi . So total cost 20,000 + 10,600 + 1,000 = 31,600 or 0.158/mile .
> Back of the envelope calculations show you are better off driving tesla by about 15%. Feel free to modify the above and recalculate if you don't agree with any numbers I used.


There 50 mpg Prius taxis out there at well over 300,000 miles. Just go to New York city and see one yourself. Some are approaching 400,000 miles. I am not exaggerating. I was a taxi driver in NYC.


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## dmoney155 (Jun 12, 2017)

Muhammad D said:


> There 50 mpg Prius taxis out there at well over 300,000 miles. Just go to New York city and see one yourself. Some are approaching 400,000 miles. I am not exaggerating. I was a taxi driver in NYC.


Sure, I just picked few numbers of quick search in google. I'm sure if you get some clunker cheap that still qualifies and has quite a few miles left on it you can get number better than tesla. On the other hand, you may also find a good deal on a used tesla.
All I'm saying is, easy to do quick calculation to get pretty good idea of what is better. Keep in mind sitting in small, uncomfortable car for prolonged times takes its toll on the body as well.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

I am waiting when Toyota starts mass producing their hydrogen cars. Hydrogen cars make more sense than EVs. The infrastructure is already there. Just fill all the gas stations with hydrogen. Mirai in Japanese means future. Toyota Mirai is the future.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> For those of us who, "DRIVE OUR CARS INTO THE GROUND," Resale is not a major issue, as we have extracted all the value of the car by USING IT, rather than selling it as a depreciated asset.


Lots of people don't know what depreciation is - they think that it is an expense that only arises if and when the car is resold. However, depreciation is actually the process of allocating the loss in value of an asset over its working life. It is a measure of how much value the car loses from purchase to the end of its working life. It matters not if the car is kept or resold at the end of its working life; the depreciation is the same in either case.

Example: Assume a $100,000 Tesla has an expected working life of 15 years and 400,000 miles. At the end of this time it is anticipated that the car will have a residual value of $5,000. The depreciation cost of the vehicle to the owner over this period is $100,000 - $5,000 = $95,000. This is the amount of value that the car lost over this period. This works out to $95,000 / 400,000 = 24 cents per mile, or $95,000 / 15 = $6,333 per year. At the end of the 15 years, it does not matter what the owner decides to do with the car - keep it, sell it, put it in his front yard as an ornament etc etc - the owner already paid (through his up-front payment of $100,000 to purchase the car) during the 15 year period 24 cents per mile or $6,333 per year in depreciation. If he sells it, he paid 24 cents per mile depreciation. If he keeps it, he paid 24 cents per mile depreciation. It doesn't matter what he does with the car at the end of the 15 year period - nothing that he does will affect the depreciation cost he already paid during that period.

A lot of people don't get how this works, but it really is as simple as that.



waldowainthrop said:


> All the more reason to get a cheaper used car over an expensive new car. If depreciation is assumed to be near total, then that should make a driver even more sensitive to the initial purchase price and any interest paid on a larger loan for it.


This. Depreciation is, in general, the biggest expense of owning a car. People who don't understand depreciation don't get that _they already paid _the depreciation expense upfront when they bought the car. Resale is just a means by which some of the money they paid for the vehicle (that was not depreciation) can be recouped.

I purchased my last Toyota at 222,000 miles for $3,900. I parted with it at 347,000 miles. I lucked out because it was totalled by the insurance company of the moron who rear ended it, and I received $5,700 for it. So my depreciation cost on it was -$1,800. Effectively I got paid $600 per year to drive it. But if it hadn't been totalled, I would have sold it for around $2,500. It would have been $1,400 in depreciation over the 3 years, or $466 per year or 1 cent per mile. I like a cost of 1 cent per mile a lot more than I like 24 cents per mile.

The fuel cost of a hybrid vs an electric vehicle in California are about the same, or slightly in favour of the hybrid, due to sky-high electricity prices in this state, so there are no savings to be had on the fuel side. Gas would probably have to be around $10 - $15 per gallon in order for the Tesla to work out cheaper overall.

Obviously, though, a $100,000 Tesla is a nicer car to be in than an old Hybrid. So it beats the old car on looks, performance and luxury. But not on cost to operate.


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## ssahin1977 (Apr 11, 2019)

DocBrown1985 said:


> Hi everyone - first time poster here. I am trying to gauge how many of you drive an EV. If so, is it a Tesla? Would you drive a Tesla if given the choice? What's stopping you? In theory, a Tesla costs more to operate than a Toyota Camry (gas, not hybrid). If you drove a Tesla, you would not only save on gas/maintenance, but also earn more by having a luxury vehicle?
> 
> Would love to hear from as many of you possible.


How much feet up are you flying ? My friend sorry for my attitude but when I saw your question that let me anger up because how did you create this question it is unbelievable. How you compose to work with Tesla for Uber that no make sense .are you willing to work with a mask on your mouth in the tesla for Uber ?


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

Muhammad D said:


> That was me in a rented Corolla from Enterprise. Enterprise had a deal with Uber at the time. They took $242 out of my Uber payout. I spent around $150 on gas. If you can get a Tesla for less than $400 a week then do it.
> I chose the other way. I bought my own Corolla and paid it off in seven months.
> 
> View attachment 463903
> ...


Why are you posting pay statements from 5 years ago?


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## Sgt Donny Donowitz (May 2, 2020)

1. It is unwise to do rideshare part time
2. It is really unwise to do rideshare fulltime
2. It's really really really unwise to do rideshare with a Tesla.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Sgt Donny Donowitz said:


> 1. It is unwise to do rideshare
> 2. It's really unwise to do rideshare with a Tesla.


It is unwise to do RS full time as a career you meant to say? It's great PT. Just as driving a NICE car vs a POS is WISE if one cares about what they drive.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Muhammad D said:


> I am waiting when Toyota starts mass producing their hydrogen cars. Hydrogen cars make more sense than EVs. The infrastructure is already there. Just fill all the gas stations with hydrogen. Mirai in Japanese means future. Toyota Mirai is the future.


Hydrogen Cars are foolish and stupid. It takes more energy to compress and distribute the hydrogen to filling stations than it does to DRIVE on home-generated electricty. When you take into account home-solar, it makes Hydrogen Fuelling even sillier. The whole point of progress is to eliminate filling station, not create a whole other layer of them. (I know, you say, what about public EV chargers...well, they only take up a parking spot, require no operator or personnel, and really are only responsibly for about 2% of EV fill-ups)

(A wise Chemist once said: It's much easier to transport electrons than it is molecules)

_Now Hydrogen fuelling makes sense for airplanes, trains, ferries, Long Range Shipping Transport (i.e.Greyhound Busses, 18-wheelers, Trains, Container Ships) because they are professionally owned, and filling stations can be vertically integrated into business model (with professional operators), and these vehicles require extremely long ranges. Batteries are perfectly fine for personal transport. _



The Gift of Fish said:


> Lots of people don't know what depreciation is - they think that it is an expense that only arises if and when the car is resold. However, depreciation is actually the process of allocating the loss in value of an asset over its working life. It is a measure of how much value the car loses from purchase to the end of its working life. It matters not if the car is kept or resold at the end of its working life; the depreciation is the same in either case.
> 
> Example: Assume a $100,000 Tesla has an expected working life of 15 years and 400,000 miles. At the end of this time it is anticipated that the car will have a residual value of $5,000. The depreciation cost of the vehicle to the owner over this period is $100,000 - $5,000 = $95,000. This is the amount of value that the car lost over this period. This works out to $95,000 / 400,000 = 24 cents per mile, or $95,000 / 15 = $6,333 per year. At the end of the 15 years, it does not matter what the owner decides to do with the car - keep it, sell it, put it in his front yard as an ornament etc etc - the owner already paid (through his up-front payment of $100,000 to purchase the car) during the 15 year period 24 cents per mile or $6,333 per year in depreciation. If he sells it, he paid 24 cents per mile depreciation. If he keeps it, he paid 24 cents per mile depreciation. It doesn't matter what he does with the car at the end of the 15 year period - nothing that he does will affect the depreciation cost he already paid during that period.
> 
> ...


*Note, in Canada, Asset Depreciation is a tax-write off expense, so depending on the tax bracket you are in, that expense can be mitigated by 17-30%. There is also a huge business incentive for driving electric which can amount to $1000s per year, beyond the Asset Depreciation. This would more than cancel out all of the above. IN CANADA, anyway..*



Muhammad D said:


> I am waiting when Toyota starts mass producing their hydrogen cars. Hydrogen cars make more sense than EVs. The infrastructure is already there. Just fill all the gas stations with hydrogen. Mirai in Japanese means future. Toyota Mirai is the future.


Toyota will never be mass producing these cars, they've all but abandoned the Mirai platform, and have gone back to larger-battery considerations (i.e. Prius Prime) . Expect Toyota to start putting out full EVs (backtracking on their stance they would NEVER do this) LONG BEFORE they make a viable mass-market Hydrogen Powered Car.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Hydrogen Cars are foolish and stupid. It takes more energy to compress and distribute the hydrogen to filling stations than it does to DRIVE on home-generated electricty. When you take into account home-solar, it makes Hydrogen Fuelling even sillier. The whole point of progress is to eliminate filling station, not create a whole other layer of them. (I know, you say, what about public EV chargers...well, they only take up a parking spot, require no operator or personnel, and really are only responsibly for about 2% of EV fill-ups)
> 
> (A wise Chemist once said: It's much easier to transport electrons than it is molecules)
> 
> ...


Didn't know Mirai is discontinued.


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> *Note, in Canada, Asset Depreciation is a tax-write off expense, so depending on the tax bracket you are in, that expense can be mitigated by 17-30%. There is also a huge business incentive for driving electric which can amount to $1000s per year, beyond the Asset Depreciation. This would more than cancel out all of the above. IN CANADA, anyway..*


In that case it sounds like getting a $100,000 Tesla would be free in Canada! I'm surprised their car sales there are not through the roof!

Anyway, depreciation is tax deductible as a business expense in all jurisdictions that I know of. In the States and other jurisdictions, the best deduction for high mileage drivers is the mileage deduction, which includes a standardised component for depreciation. Which means that, Tesla or beaten up old Camry, the tax savings are, mile for mile, the same for each car.


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Muhammad D said:


> Didn't know Mirai is discontinued.


Technically it isn't. But Toyota doesn't sell enough of these to qualify it as anything beyond much of a concept vehicle. They've sold 10,000 globally in over 5 years of production, the bulk in their domestic Japanese market. 2000 units per year is not much of a business model in the context of mass market vehicles.

For perspective, in the first 5 years of PRIUS, 1997-2001 (which was a difficult sell in many markets) Toyota sold 90,000 globally, and nobody in the media or general population even really thought about alternate fuel vehicles at the time.

There are 40 Hydrogen filling stations in in the United States (With California aiming to hit 200 by 2025. 5 in Canada (with zero plans for expansion).
There are 168,000 gas stations.
There are 500,000,000 external 120/220V EV plugs.




The Gift of Fish said:


> In that case it sounds like getting a $100,000 Tesla would be free in Canada! I'm surprised their car sales there are not through the roof!
> 
> Anyway, depreciation is tax deductible as a business expense in all jurisdictions that I know of. In the States and other jurisdictions, the best deduction for high mileage drivers is the mileage deduction, which includes a standardised component for depreciation. Which means that, Tesla or beaten up old Camry, the tax savings are, mile for mile, the same for each car.


That is not how it works here, it is a percentage of a new vehicles value. And EV incentives are very stacked for businesses/fleets compared to personal use EVs.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

Kurt Halfyard said:


> Technically it isn't. But Toyota doesn't sell enough of these to qualify it as anything beyond much of a concept vehicle. They've sold 10,000 globally in over 5 years of production, the bulk in their domestic Japanese market. 2000 units per year is not much of a business model in the context of mass market vehicles.
> 
> For perspective, in the first 5 years of PRIUS, 1997-2001 (which was a difficult sell in many markets) Toyota sold 90,000 globally, and nobody in the media or general population even really thought about alternate fuel vehicles at the time.
> 
> ...


Mirai is just like EV except you can fuel it back in minutes like gasoline car. It has the potential to give you the torque of an EV. It is more convenient imo. The only challenge is hazardous nature of hydrogen which can be overcome. Mirai has no pollutants unless you consider water a pollutant.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Muhammad D said:


> The only challenge


....and finding a place to 'fill up'. Lucky my city has one that is almost convenient. But, I prefer a Tesla.....


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## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

Muhammad D said:


> Mirai is just like EV except you can fuel it back in minutes like gasoline car. It has the potential to give you the torque of an EV. It is more convenient imo. The only challenge is hazardous nature of hydrogen which can be overcome. Mirai has no pollutants unless you consider water a pollutant.


Let me repeat:

1) The energetic COST to contain and ship Hydrogen EXCEEDS the full propulsion you will get from an EV. (Meaning that HEV is way less efficient, energetically).
2) You have to go to a filling station of which there are VERY, VERY FEW, and a technician/operator has to fill your vehicle. (Whereas, you fill an EV at your house, while you are sleeping or not using the vehicle.)
3) Agreed - on long road trips a quick filling station is useful, but it is a very small advantage, particularly in light of batteries bumping up against the 700 mile range over the next couple years.

p.s. a Hydrogen powered car is an EV, only the electricity is generated on board by oxidizing Hydrogen, instead of filling a battery. There is still a small battery on board to control electricity rate/push/variability, but it is of much smaller size than EV.

p.p.s. This is a bit off topic, but what most people fail to understand is that gasoline cars also chew up more local ELECTRICITY than EVs as the cost to REFINE gas is significantly higher than it is to move an EV on a full battery. Thus gasoline cars use more electricity than electric cars do. And then you've got all the hydrocarbon waste, and all the infrastructure (gas stations, filling, etc.) on top of that. The energy-cost to *refine* 4L of gas (1gal) is 4.25kWh, which could propel an EV for over 32km (20miles). This is before the gasoline has even left the refinery, let alone shipping costs, gasoline-filling-station costs, foreign wars, defense of global ocean shipping lanes, etc. etc.)


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## GuidoTKP (May 7, 2020)

DocBrown1985 said:


> Hi everyone - first time poster here. I am trying to gauge how many of you drive an EV. If so, is it a Tesla? Would you drive a Tesla if given the choice? What's stopping you? In theory, a Tesla costs more to operate than a Toyota Camry (gas, not hybrid). If you drove a Tesla, you would not only save on gas/maintenance, but also earn more by having a luxury vehicle?
> 
> Would love to hear from as many of you possible.


Dude, driving for U/L in any vehicle, is a complete shit-show! At some point in time, every driver comes to terms with this reality.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

GuidoTKP said:


> At some point in time, every driver comes to terms with this reality


huh, that would explain the turn over, aye?


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## GuidoTKP (May 7, 2020)

SHalester said:


> huh, that would explain the turn over, aye?


Yeah, probably


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## ggrezzi (Mar 14, 2019)

Muhammad D said:


> Hondas with naturally aspirated engines, yes. Turbo charged Accord is obviously more fun to drive than a V6 Camry. But V6 Camry will last longer. Turbos are not good for rideshare. Honda was a motorcycle company. They know how to make good engines. Just stay away from their Turbos lol. Turbos are similar to cows being overmilked in third world countries lol. Those cows dont live long. Turbos sucking V8 power out of a V6 engine will make their lives short.


I drive a Passat Turbo and it has been great so far.


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## Tony73 (Oct 12, 2016)

Waiting for solar


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## 051293848 (Aug 25, 2019)

While Tesla's are nice here are a few reasons for drivers resistance

1) upfront cost
2) range
3) repair accessibility
4) possibly reliability

The choice of seasoned drivers has been Toyotas for the past decade, because every driver gets a Toyota these also now became the most repairable car as well. These cars have a lot of wear and year, a typical NYC taxi has 500k miles in 5 years, a CT livery has 150k in 2 years doing JFK - CT trips.

Reliability is not the only concern, repairability is another one. Repair shops in large markets are open 24/7 365, you can get the whole car fixed and painted overnight or have a new engine put in as well only losing one shift. Parts are readily available as well.

While we would all love to have a Tesla - they aren't proven to 500k miles, and if anything goes wrong we are now out days or a week for parts. Also aftermarket parts are available for regular cars but not Tesla yet. Fender bender broken taillight, we can't afford a $1200 tail light once a month. The repair shops aren't there yet because the fleets aren't there yet. Round and round we go

Eventually they will be electric cars but range needs to be 500 miles and need 24/7 repair shops with parts otherwise our downtime ends up costing more than the savings, especially in situations where the cars are rented out both shifts meaning they're running 20 of the 24 hours everyday for weeks at a time or until holidays.


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## Chungyi (Jan 3, 2020)

Used to think getting $5000 car to run uber is smart decision. Then that old car started breaking down. Kept spending 500-1000 here and there. What I was thinking! By the time I decided to stop fixing it, that money would have been a nice down payment for a new car lol. I’m getting a Honda clarity plug in hybrid. Little over $30k out of door, but will get about $10k back in rebate and tax credit.


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## Muhammad D (Apr 26, 2020)

Chungyi said:


> Used to think getting $5000 car to run uber is smart decision. Then that old car started breaking down. Kept spending 500-1000 here and there. What I was thinking! By the time I decided to stop fixing it, that money would have been a nice down payment for a new car lol. I'm getting a Honda clarity plug in hybrid. Little over $30k out of door, but will get about $10k back in rebate and tax credit.


Maybe you got the wrong $5000 car. I bet it was not a Toyota Corolla or a Honda Civic. Was it?


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## Lee239 (Mar 24, 2017)

DocBrown1985 said:


> Hi everyone - first time poster here. I am trying to gauge how many of you drive an EV. If so, is it a Tesla? Would you drive a Tesla if given the choice? What's stopping you? In theory, a Tesla costs more to operate than a Toyota Camry (gas, not hybrid). If you drove a Tesla, you would not only save on gas/maintenance, but also earn more by having a luxury vehicle?
> 
> Would love to hear from as many of you possible.


You don't make more money by saving a bit on gas. You make more money by getting a real job and quitting a gig where Uber takes 70% on short rides and 50% or more on other rides as they choose and more as they think of schemes to cheat you like changing surge to a flat rate so they reap the benefits.


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