# Are you paying more than $400 a month for gas? Maybe it really is time to go electric. Even full timers.



## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Even though I evangelize about EVs on this forum, I never claim that they are the right car for everyone. Especially full timers. But things are changing. Gas is through the roof and may go sky high with this Ukraine business. And EVs are getting cheaper.

The Chevy Bolt is on battery recall because of about a dozen fires. GM is currently issuing brand new batteries to owners in a high risk group. And restarting the 8-year battery warranty. I have owned two Bolts and they are a great rideshare car by most measures. You can go over 200 miles before even thinking about charging.

Anyone in a position to charge at home, or has free or low cost chargers in their locale may want to take a fresh look at going electric. I drive two days a week, with a 100 mile commute round trip. Total cost to charge the car is $40 a month. Combined with a good loan the car is cheaper to run than some gas vehicles that are paid off.


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## TomTheAnt (Jan 1, 2019)

Unfortunately my EV won’t be here until another couple of years, but looking forward to it. Still not getting rid of my ICE, though.


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

Now imagine if someone got one of those $13K 2017 Bolt LT back in early 2020... PROFIT!


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

TomTheAnt said:


> Still not getting rid of my ICE, though.


Neither have I...


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

_Tron_ said:


> Even though I evangelize about EVs on this forum, I never claim that they are the right car for everyone. Especially full timers. But things are changing. Gas is through the roof and may go sky high with this Ukraine business. And EVs are getting cheaper.
> 
> The Chevy Bolt is on battery recall because of about a dozen fires. GM is currently issuing brand new batteries to owners in a high risk group. And restarting the 8-year battery warranty. I have owned two Bolts and they are a great rideshare car by most measures. You can go over 200 miles before even thinking about charging.
> 
> ...


Electricity will rise also


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

tohunt4me said:


> Electricity will rise also


Depends on your grid. Renewable projects tend to be PPA and have a small annual increase built in, not fickle like fossil fuel generation.


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## ChicagoHeat12 (May 6, 2015)

tohunt4me said:


> Electricity will rise also


Mad facts! In economics there is a saying, "no free lunch." The difference will be made up somewhere. If people get cute and go electric, the demand will cause rates to rise and the government, losing gas tax revenue, to raise taxes on electricity.


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

ChicagoHeat12 said:


> Mad facts! In economics there is a saying, "no free lunch." The difference will be made up somewhere. If people get cute and go electric, the demand will cause rates to rise and the government, losing gas tax revenue, to raise taxes on electricity.


Many states already have an EV tax, an extra hundred or two on the registration to make up for the lack of gas taxes.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

p7wang said:


> Depends on your grid. Renewable projects tend to be PPA and have a small annual increase built in, not fickle like fossil fuel generation.


I did without power for 2 months last year.
Had to run a natural gas generator to have electricity !
Had a severe Hurricane last year.

Electric vehicles would be a DISASTER HERE !

IMAGINE TRYING TO EVACUATE FROM A HURRICANE,EARTHQUAKE OR CITY RIOT

IN A LONG LINE OF TRAFFIC BARELY MOVING. . .
THEN YOU RUN OUT OF ELECTRICITY !

I would Hate to LOSE MY LIFE BECAUSE OF ELECTRIC CARS !

DIDNT HAVE 12 HOURS AT HOME TO CHARGE CAR BEFORE YOU WERE FORCED TO EVACUATE !!!

ELECTRIC CARS ARE DISASTERS.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

ChicagoHeat12 said:


> Mad facts! In economics there is a saying, "no free lunch." The difference will be made up somewhere. If people get cute and go electric, the demand will cause rates to rise and the government, losing gas tax revenue, to raise taxes on electricity.


How does Chicago generate electricity ?
Coal ?
Fossil fuels ?
Natural Gas ?

Nuclear with stockpiles of waste which the danger of outlives their safe storage containers !?!?

No one has YET FIGURED OUT WHAT TO FO WITH NUCLEAR WASTE !

IT IS A HAZARD TO LIFE !

THIS IS WHY GERMANY WANTED TO SHUT DOWN THEIR AGING UNSAFE REACTORS & PIPELINE IN RUSSIAN GAS !

TO BURN TO POWER " ELECTRIC CARS": WITH HAZARDOUS BATTERIES !


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## TomTheAnt (Jan 1, 2019)

@tohunt4me, why don't you REALLY tell us how you feel about EVs?


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## tucsongoober69 (May 29, 2021)

A bolt that used to cost $15k 2 years ago because of the battery recall is now $24k. How cum I don't see Lyber raising their rates by 65%


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

tohunt4me said:


> I did without power for 2 months last year.
> Had to run a natural gas generator to have electricity !
> Had a severe Hurricane last year.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I would not own an EV if I live in the third world. You're in TX, right? LOL


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

p7wang said:


> Yeah, I would not own an EV if I live in the third world. You're in TX, right? LOL


No. . . Louisiana. 

Texas would be a step up


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## WI_Hedgehog (Aug 16, 2021)

Electric cars run on batteries. Batteries have to be replaced, and that's not inexpensive. It's like replacing a car engine every 80,000 miles for $24,000 (maybe $12,000 at 100K miles for a small car, it depends on a lot of factors).

I like electric vehicles, it's just they're really, really expensive in the big picture.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

TomTheAnt said:


> @tohunt4me, why don't you REALLY tell us how you feel about EVs?


You did NOTICE that my Icon is a Solar Powered Windmill fueled by Unicorn Farts ?


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

WI_Hedgehog said:


> Electric cars run on batteries. Batteries have to be replaced, and that's not inexpensive. It's like replacing a car engine every 80,000 miles for $24,000 (maybe $12,000 at 100K miles for a small car, it depends on a lot of factors).
> 
> I like electric vehicles, it's just they're really, really expensive in the big picture.
> View attachment 646070


Where are you getting EV batteries only last 80k miles? Most EV battery warranty are 100k miles and some newer ones are providing even longer warranty (Toyota's BYD SUV is 150k miles) and Solid State would be more like a million miles. Basing everything on 'warranty' is like saying ICE only last 5 years/60k miles.









How do 300K-mile Teslas hold up? This EV fleet operator has some interesting data


The highest-mileage Teslas on the planet aren't consumer cars, but rather fleet vehicles owned by companies like Tesloop.




www.autoweek.com


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

p7wang said:


> Where are you getting EV batteries only last 80k miles? Most EV battery warranty are 100k miles and some newer ones are providing even longer warranty (Toyota's BYD SUV is 150k miles) and Solid State would be more like a million miles. Basing everything on 'warranty' is like saying ICE only last 5 years/60k miles.


And I.C.E. engines are going 300,000 miles now.

Pay twice as much for Half the use.

How " Progressive " !


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## WI_Hedgehog (Aug 16, 2021)

p7wang said:


> Where are you getting EV batteries only last 80k miles? Most EV battery warranty are 100k miles and some newer ones are providing even longer warranty (Toyota's BYD SUV is 150k miles) and Solid State would be more like a million miles. Basing everything on 'warranty' is like saying ICE only last 5 years/60k miles.


EVs whose batteries expired and are being repurposed in China. Assuming that new EV batteries will last 100K is like an ice cream salesman saying the ice cream won't melt until you're done eating it.

I get it, newer batteries last longer under ideal conditions. I'm not ripping on EVs, I just like to use heat in winter and A/C in summer, both of which use a lot of power and shorten battery life if you measure battery life in miles. As does rapid charging. And driving in below freezing temps, or temps over 105F (and pre-heating and pre-cooling, and age). It all adds up.


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

WI_Hedgehog said:


> EVs whose batteries expired and are being repurposed in China. Assuming that new EV batteries will last 100K is like an ice cream salesman saying the ice cream won't melt until you're done eating it.
> 
> I get it, newer batteries last longer under ideal conditions. I'm not ripping on EVs, I just like to use heat in winter and A/C in summer, both of which use a lot of power and shorten battery life if you measure battery life in miles. As does rapid charging. And driving in below freezing temps, or temps over 105F (and pre-heating and pre-cooling, and age). It all adds up.


Meaning you are taking 10 year old EV tech for your argument instead of what's available today. Are you also saying EVs only have 70 mile range? Well, despite actual cases showing it costs less, I think you should stick with ICE so other people can get EVs and have lower operating cost. I guess when you pick stocks, you pick the company with higher cost and lower profit. LOL









How do 300K-mile Teslas hold up? This EV fleet operator has some interesting data


The highest-mileage Teslas on the planet aren't consumer cars, but rather fleet vehicles owned by companies like Tesloop.




www.autoweek.com


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

p7wang said:


> Well, despite actual cases showing it costs less, I think you should stick with ICE so other people can get EVs and have lower operating cost. I guess when you pick stocks, you pick the company with higher cost and lower profit. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if Joe Biden would not be creating an ENERGY CATASTROPHE . . . there would be Less Problems !


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

tohunt4me said:


> Well if Joe Biden would not be creating an ENERGY CATASTROPHE . . . there would be Less Problems !


Yep, minorities don't get a pass and have to work twice as hard. We need Michelle to run for President. We did so well for over 12 years since Mr. Obama became President.


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## WI_Hedgehog (Aug 16, 2021)

p7wang said:


> Meaning you are taking 10 year old EV tech for your argument instead of what's available today. Are you also saying EVs only have 70 mile range? Well, despite actual cases showing it costs less, I think you should stick with ICE so other people can get EVs and have lower operating cost. I guess when you pick stocks, you pick the company with higher cost and lower profit. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...











What's New







www.teslabottalk.com




I actually loosely follow technical developments. I have several small EVs, just not large-scale ones like cars due to cost. (I also look at depreciation and Total Cost of Ownership.) So far I can't justify electric car ownership costs, though at some point I expect that could change. I also live in Wisconsin, so the weather factors in.

I see it here on the UP forum too, people ask monthly if a Tesla makes sense for Uber/Lyft since their strong-point is stop-and-go driving and they command an additional premium for Uber-X. So far the answer is no, it's not worth it. If the best electric car out there doing what it does best can't come out ahead of a gasser, well, to me that speaks volumes.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

p7wang said:


> Yep, minorities don't get a pass and have to work twice as hard. We need Michelle to run for President. We did so well for over 12 years since Mr. Obama became President.


Mary Landrieu was made Chair of D.O.E. by Obama as Reward for giving him the 1 vote he NEEDED for National Healthcare.

She was voted out of office in Retaliation .
Bad move for Louisiana.

Things could have been much different.










Louisiana shot themselves in the foot


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

WI_Hedgehog said:


> What's New
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hell, I almost bought an electric lawnmower.

But 
They don't burst into flames !


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## WI_Hedgehog (Aug 16, 2021)

tohunt4me said:


> Hell, I almost bought an electric lawnmower.
> 
> But
> They don't burst into flames !


Last I looked they were $500 when a similar gasser was $125. Electric cut for around 1/2 hour in thicker, wet grass, gas for 2 hours or so on a tank. (YMMV - your mowing may vary  )

Electric snowblowers are on the market, they're doing better every year--this year they're more powerful than a hand broom.

Battery powered vacuums are where it's at though, everyone I talk to says they suck.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

I was planning on going all EV years ago until the leftists started pushing of ICE bans. I will probably hold out as long as I can burning gas because I know if I ever sell my gas burners I may not be able to reacquire.


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

Trafficat said:


> I was planning on going all EV years ago until the leftists started pushing of ICE bans. I will probably hold out as long as I can burning gas because I know if I ever sell my gas burners I may not be able to reacquire.


Ah, yes. LOL


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## WI_Hedgehog (Aug 16, 2021)

Totally funny @p7wang , made me want a gas-powered flashlight....so I googled it...already invented. 😢


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

Disgusted Driver said:


> Many states already have an EV tax, an extra hundred or two on the registration to make up for the lack of gas taxes.


Actually no, the highest “EV Tax” is $200 in a couple states, but the most of any state that goes to the highway fund is $100, in most states it’s only $30 to $50, and that amount in no way is equal to the amount of driving an EV does


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Frontier Guy said:


> Actually no, the highest “EV Tax” is $200 in a couple states, but the most of any state that goes to the highway fund is $100, in most states it’s only $30 to $50, and that amount in no way is equal to the amount of driving an EV does


Taxes ALWAYS go higher.


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

tohunt4me said:


> Taxes ALWAYS go higher.


Just for the little guy. Top marginal tax rate for the wealthy has gone down pretty steadily. Most recently thanks to the last adminstration. 😉


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

ALL THIS & W.W.3 IN ONE SHORT YEAR !

THANKS BRANDON !

WHAT WILL HE DO NEXT YEAR ?


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

tohunt4me said:


> View attachment 646605
> View attachment 646606
> View attachment 646608
> 
> ...


The last guy would have withdrew from NATO, negotiatef an unconditional surrender and welcomed Russian peace keeping troops on US soil, comrad. The American people made the right choice. 😉


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## TulsaUberDriver (11 mo ago)

TomTheAnt said:


> @tohunt4me, why don't you REALLY tell us how you feel about EVs?


Before Katrina I'd think he was a paranoid nutter but now with the crap box our world has evolved into he preaches the truth.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

So much for this thread.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

p7wang said:


> Just for the little guy. Top marginal tax rate for the wealthy has gone down pretty steadily. Most recently thanks to the last adminstration. 😉


My taxes have gone down three years in a row, I'm hardly wealthy



tohunt4me said:


> Taxes ALWAYS go higher.


True, but the EV industry is fighting tooth and nail to keep from paying their fair share of the highway user gas tax. In Colorado, it's $30 of $50, based on current gas tax, that limits the total miles an EV can be driven, based on what they have paid for, to about 500 miles


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Frontier Guy said:


> My taxes have gone down three years in a row, I'm hardly wealthy
> 
> 
> 
> True, but the EV industry is fighting tooth and nail to keep from paying their fair share of the highway user gas tax. In Colorado, it's $30 of $50, based on current gas tax, that limits the total miles an EV can be driven, based on what they have paid for, to about 500 miles


I can convert a car to run on natural gas.

I do NOT have to TELL ANYONE I HAVE DONE SO.

I CAN COMPRESS NATURAL GAS AT HOME.
MY NATURAL GAS WATER HEATER SHARES A WALL WITH MY CARPORT. ALL I NEED IS A PIPE T, AND A FOOT OF PIPE & A VALVE AND IM OUTSIDE.

I CAN BOIL SEAFOOD & RUN A GAS BBQ GRILL ON IT OUTSIDE ALSO .

NO ONE NEEDS TO KNOW IM SAVING 50 CENTS A GALLON ON ROAD TAX.

NO ONE .


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## TomTheAnt (Jan 1, 2019)

p7wang said:


> The last guy would have withdrew from NATO, negotiatef an unconditional surrender and welcomed Russian peace keeping troops on US soil, comrad. The American people made the right choice. 😉


I usually don't take part in political discussions/commenting, but you might be on to something here...


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

Frontier Guy said:


> Actually no, the highest “EV Tax” is $200 in a couple states, but the most of any state that goes to the highway fund is $100, in most states it’s only $30 to $50, and that amount in no way is equal to the amount of driving an EV does


Here's the most up to date list I could find and yes, there are are several states in the $50 range but there are a bunch in the $200 range as well, some the money goes to the highway fund and with some, some or all of the money disappears into general revenue. 

Whether that money covers the loss in gas tax revenue is another question. In California it certainly doesn't. CA charges a 51 cent gas tax but $100 EV fee so after the equivalent of 200 gallons or maybe 13 weeks of driving, the EV is getting a free ride. The tax on electricity is minuscule by comparison, $.0002 per kWh or a penny roughly every 150 miles. WV on the other hand charges 33 cents for gas tax and a $200 EV fee, or the equivalent of 600 of gas, much closer but still not covering the equivalent cost for highway maintenance. So there's no doubt that things will need to be rejiggered as the fleet of vehicles get more electrified but I think states are starting to catch on and raise these fees.


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

Disgusted Driver said:


> Here's the most up to date list I could find and yes, there are are several states in the $50 range but there are a bunch in the $200 range as well, some the money goes to the highway fund and with some, some or all of the money disappears into general revenue.
> 
> Whether that money covers the loss in gas tax revenue is another question. In California it certainly doesn't. CA charges a 51 cent gas tax but $100 EV fee so after the equivalent of 200 gallons or maybe 13 weeks of driving, the EV is getting a free ride. The tax on electricity is minuscule by comparison, $.0002 per kWh or a penny roughly every 150 miles. WV on the other hand charges 33 cents for gas tax and a $200 EV fee, or the equivalent of 600 of gas, much closer but still not covering the equivalent cost for highway maintenance. So there's no doubt that things will need to be rejiggered as the fleet of vehicles get more electrified but I think states are starting to catch on and raise these fees.


Edited: Some states are charging a surplus on hybrids and plug-in vehicles from that flawed logic. A gallon of gas is about 33 kWh of energy. EVs can do around 100 miles with that. So annual mileage of 12k miles is 120 gallons. So your 200 gallon example is actually for 20 months of driving, not 13 weeks. Ultimately, road tax should probably be based on vehicle weight and mileage driven instead of fossil fuel usage or just go 100% toll roads like the last administration wanted. Also, fossil fuel should have a pollution tax (fossil fuel power plants would also pay this tax) so people can't cheat by using farm diesel on their diesel cars/trucks/motorhomes. (I met a guy who converted his gasoline Jeep into a diesel at a high cost (over $10K)... who in their right mind would do that? Perhaps someone trying to cheat on road tax?)


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## Disgusted Driver (Jan 9, 2015)

p7wang said:


> OTOH, a gallon of gas is about 33 kWh of energy. EVs can do around 100 miles with that. So annual mileage of 12k miles is 120 gallons. So your 200 gallon example is actually for 20 months of driving, not 13 weeks.


Not really. I'm comparing what an ICE vehicle consumes and pays into the tax system for the maintenance of roads to what an EV would pay in. We are not discussing efficiency here.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

p7wang said:


> Edited: Some states are charging a surplus on hybrids and plug-in vehicles from that flawed logic. A gallon of gas is about 33 kWh of energy. EVs can do around 100 miles with that. So annual mileage of 12k miles is 120 gallons. So your 200 gallon example is actually for 20 months of driving, not 13 weeks. Ultimately, road tax should probably be based on vehicle weight and mileage driven instead of fossil fuel usage or just go 100% toll roads like the last administration wanted. Also, fossil fuel should have a pollution tax (fossil fuel power plants would also pay this tax) so people can't cheat by using farm diesel on their diesel cars/trucks/motorhomes. (I met a guy who converted his gasoline Jeep into a diesel at a high cost (over $10K)... who in their right mind would do that? Perhaps someone trying to cheat on road tax?)


In most states, especially in the west, the highway patrol does fuel inspections on diesel vehicles, Nebraska is big on this, they pull you over, dip your tanks, if you’re caught with off-road diesel in highway vehicles, the fines are quite high


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## p7wang (12 mo ago)

Frontier Guy said:


> In most states, especially in the west, the highway patrol does fuel inspections on diesel vehicles, Nebraska is big on this, they pull you over, dip your tanks, if you’re caught with off-road diesel in highway vehicles, the fines are quite high


Well, more reason someone may convert a gas to diesel instead of buying a diesel... it looks like a gas car so cops will not be pulling him over.


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

p7wang said:


> Edited: Some states are charging a surplus on hybrids and plug-in vehicles from that flawed logic. A gallon of gas is about 33 kWh of energy. EVs can do around 100 miles with that. So annual mileage of 12k miles is 120 gallons. So your 200 gallon example is actually for 20 months of driving, not 13 weeks. Ultimately, road tax should probably be based on vehicle weight and mileage driven instead of fossil fuel usage or just go 100% toll roads like the last administration wanted. Also, fossil fuel should have a pollution tax (fossil fuel power plants would also pay this tax) so people can't cheat by using farm diesel on their diesel cars/trucks/motorhomes. (I met a guy who converted his gasoline Jeep into a diesel at a high cost (over $10K)... who in their right mind would do that? Perhaps someone trying to cheat on road tax?)


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## Frontier Guy (Dec 27, 2015)

p7wang said:


> Well, more reason someone may convert a gas to diesel instead of buying a diesel... it looks like a gas car so cops will not be pulling him over.


Cops aren’t as stupid as they look


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