# Math: $1.00 mile = $7.68 per hour at best.



## UberHammer

My Non-variables:
Base rate = $0.50
Mileage rate = $1.00 per mile
Time rate = $0.17 per minute
SRF per trip = $1.00
Cost per mile to drive car = $0.32
No surge rates
No guarantee bonuses

My Variables:
Average miles per hour driving: 30 MPH (average includes time spent while stopped, i.e. traffic lights, waiting for customer, etc...)
Downtime per hour: zero (meaning no waiting for pings, driver is 100% utilized by Uber system)
Ratio of dead miles to billable miles: 50%
Trips per hour: 3


30 miles driven in an hour with 50% being billable produces 15 billable miles per hour.
At $1.00 per mile, that produces $15.00 in mileage revenue per hour.
Zero downtime per hour produces 60 minutes of work per hour.
50% ratio of dead miles to billable miles produces 30 minutes of billable minutes per hour.
At $0.17 per minute, 30 minutes of billable minutes per hour produces $5.10 in time revenue per hour.
3 trips per hour at $0.50 base rate per trip produces $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour.
3 trips per hour at $1.00 SRF per trip produces $3.00 in SRFs per hour.
*$15.00 in mileage revenue per hour, plus $5.10 in time revenue per hour, plus $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour, plus, $3.00 in SRFs per hour equals $24.60 in gross fares per hour. *


$24.60 minus $3.00 in SRFs equals $21.60 per hour.
$21.60 minus Ubers 20% commission (20% of $21.60) equals $17.28 per hour.

*Uber driver will receive $17.28 payment from Uber from the $24.60 gross fares per hour.*


30 miles driven per hour with a cost of $0.32 per mile equals $9.60 in costs. 
$17.28 per hour minus $9.60 in costs equals $7.68 per hour.

*Uber driver will profit only $7.68 per hour on $24.60 in gross fares, which Uber calls "Driver Earnings". *


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## Rich Brunelle

That is not earnings. That is scraps. It doesn't pay the driver, it doesn't pay the Contractor as though a business, it is a waste of time and effort. Here's what you need . . . Enough to pay expenses, enough to pay the car, enough to pay the driver, and enough to pay the business ( your business).


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## Actionjax

UberHammer said:


> My Non-variables:
> Base rate = $0.50
> Mileage rate = $1.00 per mile
> Time rate = $0.17 per minute
> SRF per trip = $1.00
> Cost per mile to drive car = $0.32
> No surge rates
> No guarantee bonuses
> 
> My Variables:
> Average miles per hour driving: 30 MPH (average includes time spent while stopped, i.e. traffic lights, waiting for customer, etc...)
> Downtime per hour: zero (meaning no waiting for pings, driver is 100% utilized by Uber system)
> Ratio of dead miles to billable miles: 50%
> Trips per hour: 3
> 
> 
> 30 miles driven in an hour with 50% being billable produces 15 billable miles per hour.
> At $1.00 per mile, that produces $15.00 in mileage revenue per hour.
> Zero downtime per hour produces 60 minutes of work per hour.
> 50% ratio of dead miles to billable miles produces 30 minutes of billable minutes per hour.
> At $0.17 per minute, 30 minutes of billable minutes per hour produces $5.10 in time revenue per hour.
> 3 trips per hour at $0.50 base rate per trip produces $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour.
> 3 trips per hour at $1.00 SRF per trip produces $3.00 in SRFs per hour.
> *$15.00 in mileage revenue per hour, plus $5.10 in time revenue per hour, plus $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour, plus, $3.00 in SRFs per hour equals $24.60 in gross fares per hour. *
> 
> 
> $24.60 minus $3.00 in SRFs equals $21.60 per hour.
> $21.60 minus Ubers 20% commission (20% of $21.60) equals $17.28 per hour.
> 
> *Uber driver will receive $17.28 payment from Uber from the $24.60 gross fares per hour.*
> 
> 
> 30 miles driven per hour with a cost of $0.32 per mile equals $9.60 in costs.
> $17.28 per hour minus $9.60 in costs equals $7.68 per hour.
> 
> *Uber driver will profit only $7.68 per hour on $24.60 in gross fares, which Uber calls "Driver Earnings". *


Just ran your numbers. Looks 100% on the money. That's 2 things we agree on.

What's minimum wage for your state?

I don't count the SRF in my calculations because it's a wash. But I believe you are doing it because Uber is loading the taxes on to you.


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## UberHammer

Actionjax said:


> Just ran your numbers. Looks 100% on the money. That's 2 things we agree on.
> 
> *What's minimum wage for your state?*
> 
> I don't count the SRF in my calculations because it's a wash. But I believe you are doing it because Uber is loading the taxes on to you.


In Ohio it's $7.25 per hour.

Toledo Ohio Uber rates are $0.70 per mile, $0.16 per minute, and $1.00 base. Run the above with those numbers and Toledo Uber drivers are making less than Ohio's minimum wage, unless they get surge rates, a higher billed/dead mile ratio, or the infrastructure allows them to get a higher MPH average.


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## Rich Brunelle

I disagree with changing to the actual car costs in your calculation. By using the 0.56 or whatever it is, your calcs work for most everyone. Uber cannot change that figure in their calcs, neither should we. Redo your math using the IRS figure and you will better represent the legal pay amounts.


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## getFubered

New or prospective drivers reading this post should note that the variables used in the calculations are extremely conservative. By this I mean if you think you're first week or month you're going to know where to go and how to work such that you're doing 3 trips per hour, with only 50% billable miles and no down time-you're not. Considering my experience and own numbers, this is about the best you can hope for.


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## Rich Brunelle

BTW, did Uber raise the SRF to $1.50?


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## Rich Brunelle

getFubered said:


> New or prospective drivers reading this post should note that the variables used in the calculations are extremely conservative. By this I mean if you think you're first week or month you're going to know where to go and how to work such that you're doing 3 trips per hour, with only 50% billable miles and no down time-you're not. Considering my experience and own numbers, this is about the best you can hope for.


Agreed, thank you.


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## chi1cabby

UberHammer said:


> Uber driver will profit only $7.68 per hour on $24.60 in gross fares, which Uber calls "Driver Earnings".


Excellent Post!

Attention @Sean O'Gorman , if you still come around here anymore.


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## Actionjax

getFubered said:


> New or prospective drivers reading this post should note that the variables used in the calculations are extremely conservative. By this I mean if you think you're first week or month you're going to know where to go and how to work such that you're doing 3 trips per hour, with only 50% billable miles and no down time-you're not. Considering my experience and own numbers, this is about the best you can hope for.


That's true. As a new driver I was still trolling for fares to find the spots to sit. So yep you will put on more miles till you get the hang of it.


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## Casuale Haberdasher

UberHammer said:


> My Non-variables:
> Base rate = $0.50
> Mileage rate = $1.00 per mile
> Time rate = $0.17 per minute
> SRF per trip = $1.00
> Cost per mile to drive car = $0.32
> No surge rates
> No guarantee bonuses
> 
> My Variables:
> Average miles per hour driving: 30 MPH (average includes time spent while stopped, i.e. traffic lights, waiting for customer, etc...)
> Downtime per hour: zero (meaning no waiting for pings, driver is 100% utilized by Uber system)
> Ratio of dead miles to billable miles: 50%
> Trips per hour: 3
> 
> 
> 30 miles driven in an hour with 50% being billable produces 15 billable miles per hour.
> At $1.00 per mile, that produces $15.00 in mileage revenue per hour.
> Zero downtime per hour produces 60 minutes of work per hour.
> 50% ratio of dead miles to billable miles produces 30 minutes of billable minutes per hour.
> At $0.17 per minute, 30 minutes of billable minutes per hour produces $5.10 in time revenue per hour.
> 3 trips per hour at $0.50 base rate per trip produces $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour.
> 3 trips per hour at $1.00 SRF per trip produces $3.00 in SRFs per hour.
> *$15.00 in mileage revenue per hour, plus $5.10 in time revenue per hour, plus $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour, plus, $3.00 in SRFs per hour equals $24.60 in gross fares per hour. *
> 
> 
> $24.60 minus $3.00 in SRFs equals $21.60 per hour.
> $21.60 minus Ubers 20% commission (20% of $21.60) equals $17.28 per hour.
> 
> *Uber driver will receive $17.28 payment from Uber from the $24.60 gross fares per hour.*
> 
> 
> 30 miles driven per hour with a cost of $0.32 per mile equals $9.60 in costs.
> $17.28 per hour minus $9.60 in costs equals $7.68 per hour.
> 
> *Uber driver will profit only $7.68 per hour on $24.60 in gross fares, which Uber calls "Driver Earnings". *


POST # 1 /@UberHammer: For those
who can't or won't "Run the Numbers"
The Hammer has done it for you.
Thanks, Hammer!


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## UberHammer

Rich Brunelle said:


> I disagree with changing to the actual car costs in your calculation. By using the 0.56 or whatever it is, your calcs work for most everyone. Uber cannot change that figure in their calcs, neither should we. Redo your math using the IRS figure and you will better represent the legal pay amounts.


Please do not bring the IRS standard mileage deduction into the conversation. The IRS also allows a standard living expense deduction too. That doesn't mean everyone who uses it actually has that much in living expenses. The IRS sets "standard deductions" all throughout the tax code so that not everyone has to incur the costs of hiring an accountant to file their taxes. That would be government putting an undue financial burden on all of society.


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Actionjax said:


> Just ran your numbers. Looks 100% on the money. That's 2 things we agree on.
> 
> What's minimum wage for your state?
> 
> I don't count the SRF in my calculations because it's a wash. But I believe you are doing it because Uber is loading the taxes on to you.


3 big flaws:
1) 100% utilization, no down time is completely unrealistic, cut that in half
2) only $.32/mile running cost also quite suspect (especially no way if you're driving "plus"). If true, you are a rare (5%) exception. Most people with newer cars would be up near 50cents, which makes this whole scenario a LOSS!
3) Most major cities are now at $.75/mile, which also produces a major loss.
Who's still paying $1/mile?


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## chi1cabby

Rich Brunelle said:


> By using the 0.56 or whatever it is, your calcs work for most everyone.


@UberHammer is using his Actual cost to drive @ ¢32/mile. This is his real cost to operate his car.
The IRS standard deduction of ¢56.5/mile is just that, an all inclusive deduction permitted by the IRS for use of a vehicle for business purpose. It is Not an individual's actual cost to operate the car.


Rich Brunelle said:


> BTW, did Uber raise the SRF to $1.50?


Not that I've heard of. Lyft's Trust & Safety Fee, TSF, is $1.50. But Uber's $1 SRF is part of the minimum fare, but Lyft's $1.50 TSF is not.


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## Rich Brunelle

UberHammer said:


> Please do not bring the IRS standard mileage deduction into the conversation. The IRS also allows a standard living expense deduction too. That doesn't mean everyone who uses it actually has that much in living expenses. The IRS sets "standard deductions" all throughout the tax code so that not everyone has to incur the costs of hiring an accountant to file their taxes. That would be government putting an undue financial burden on all of society.


No, I have to disagree. By you using your lesser amount to calculate your earnings, you are saying that Uber can also do so. You might be at 0.32 where I am in reality closer to 0.55. That is our variable for our use, it is your blanket "give me" on a variable that might change over the period of a year. To be just in your calc, use the approved amount, unless you want Uber not to use the approved amount also.


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## Rich Brunelle

chi1cabby said:


> @UberHammer is using his Actual cost to drive @ ¢32/mile. This is his real cost to operate his car.
> The IRS standard deduction of ¢56.5/mile is just that, an all inclusive deduction permitted by the IRS for use of a vehicle for business purpose. It is Not an individual's actual cost to operate the car.
> 
> Not that I've heard of. Lyft's Trust & Safety Fee, TSF, is $1.50. But Uber's $1 SRF is part of the minimum fare, but Lyft's $1.50 TSF is not.


But is that based on his costs year-to-date, or estimated costs for the year. Face it having to purchase a new tire can raise that figure so it is not a set rate. The 0.56 is a set rate that does not change unless you change tax forms.


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## Actionjax

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> 3 big flaws:
> 1) 100% utilization, no down time is completely unrealistic, cut that in half
> 2) only $.32/mile running cost also quite suspect (especially no way if you're driving "plus"). If true, you are a rare (5%) exception. Most people with newer cars would be up near 50cents, which makes this whole scenario a LOSS!
> 3) Most major cities are now at $.75/mile, which also produces a major loss.
> Who's still paying $1/mile?


1) This will depend on your market. I have gone out and been 100% utilized for the most part. Worst for me right now is 75%. So that's market specific.
2) $0.32 a mile could work for the majority who are running a Prius. I do about $0.32 a KM on a Mazda 3 that does not have a fuel efficient engine. $0.50 per mile is not accurate for anyone unless you like driving a Hummer for UberX.
3) I get over $1 per mile today on X. So again it's market driven.

Regardless this is the math. Insert your own figures accordingly. I think what it shows effectively is what the real cost of Uber is when they advertise you can make $xx.xx per hour. When in reality that's not the case.

This in my opinion is a good post. Even if I don't always agree with the OP. This is one of his better non editorial posts that makes sense.


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## chi1cabby

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> 3 big flaws:
> 1) 100% utilization, no down time is completely unrealistic, cut that in half
> 2) only $.32/mile running cost also quite suspect (especially no way if you're driving "plus"). If true, you are a rare (5%) exception. Most people with newer cars would be up near 50cents, which makes this whole scenario a LOSS!
> 3) Most major cities are now at $.75/mile, which also produces a major loss.
> Who's still paying $1/mile?


These are @UberHammer actual numbers under Ideal Conditions (100% Utilization). This analysis yields an income of *$7.68/Hour At Best!
*
Perhaps you should run your own such analysis for your vehicle, in your market.


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## Actionjax

chi1cabby said:


> These are @UberHammer actual numbers under Ideal (100% Utilization). This analysis yields an income of him an *$7.68/Hour At Best!
> *
> Perhaps you should run your own such analysis for your vehicle, in your market.


Exactly....I have done the same numbers for me and my market...I get different levels of success than in other areas. So this is not a one size fits all type of thing. Figure out your own calculations. The math is sound. Where people get hung up is they don't know how to calculate their actual cost to operate. Take the easy IRS rates.


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## Rich Brunelle

Actionjax said:


> 1) This will depend on your market. I have gone out and been 100% utilized for the most part. Worst for me right now is 75%. So that's market specific.
> 2) $0.32 a mile could work for the majority who are running a Prius. I do about $0.32 a KM on a Mazda 3 that does not have a fuel efficient engine. $0.50 per mile is not accurate for anyone unless you like driving a Hummer for UberX.
> 3) I get over $1 per mile today on X. So again it's market driven.
> 
> Regardless this is the math. Insert your own figures accordingly. I think what it shows effectively is what the real cost of Uber is when they advertise you can make $xx.xx per hour. When in reality that's not the case.
> 
> This in my opinion is a good post. Even if I don't always agree with the OP. This is one of his better non editorial posts that makes sense.


I agree, my separate discussion of the costs variable need not be part of this posting. And, I also agree this is one of the best posts on this topic I have read thus far.


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## Casuale Haberdasher

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> 3 big flaws:
> 1) 100% utilization, no down time is completely unrealistic, cut that in half
> 2) only $.32/mile running cost also quite suspect (especially no way if you're driving "plus"). If true, you are a rare (5%) exception. Most people with newer cars would be up near 50cents, which makes this whole scenario a LOSS!
> 3) Most major cities are now at $.75/mile, which also produces a major loss.
> Who's still paying $1/mile?


POST # 13 / @Uber SUCKS for drivers!:
3 big flaws: "3 big flaws" Instead of an
across-board-condemnation of the
Correct #s for @UberHammer why NOT
turn that Frown UpsideDown by pro-
ducing the #s from Your For-Instance.

"O.K. Forum Members Here's MY numbers."


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## getFubered

Rich Brunelle said:


> No, I have to disagree. By you using your lesser amount to calculate your earnings, you are saying that Uber can also do so. You might be at 0.32 where I am in reality closer to 0.55. That is our variable for our use, it is your blanket "give me" on a variable that might change over the period of a year. To be just in your calc, use the approved amount, unless you want Uber not to use the approved amount also.


The IRS number is just a number they've agreed to allow everyone to use at tax time. The number is irrelevant. If we were given a $3/mile deduction that doesn't mean uber is only profitable > $6/mile (what a dream that would be). You have to know the cost of your own vehicle. If two drivers have the same exact car but much different mileage, the operating costs are different and the depreciation curve isn't linear. Though I would bet hammer factored in the cost of random "tires" and the like in his cost so it doesn't fluctuate when things come up.


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## Actionjax

getFubered said:


> The IRS number is just a number they've agreed to allow everyone to use at tax time. The number is irrelevant. If we were given a $3/mile deduction that doesn't mean uber is only profitable > $6/mile (what a dream that would be). You have to know the cost of your own vehicle. If two drivers have the same exact car but much different mileage, the operating costs are different and the depreciation curve isn't linear. Though I would bet hammer factored in the cost of random "tires" and the like in his cost so it doesn't fluctuate when things come up.


I know when I did my number the cost over 3 years included that cost. I also included what other items would cost on my car before I traded it in. Most car's items start to go like clockwork. So you can gauge that based on your schedules that your car typically gets. If I don't need that stuff that's a win...but lets face it. Uber is hard on cars.


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## Actionjax

BTW if anyone cares I have a few posts up showing my numbers in my market. Here is the latest ones.

http://www.uberpeople.net/threads/post-rate-cut-friday-feb-20-and-sunday-february-22.14429/


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## UberHammer

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> 3 big flaws:
> 1) 100% utilization, no down time is completely unrealistic, cut that in half


EXACTLY!!! Which is why I said "at best" after $7.68 per hour. If you aren't driving "smart" and 100% utilized, you'll make less than $7.68 with these numbers.



> 2) only $.32/mile running cost also quite suspect (especially no way if you're driving "plus"). If true, you are a rare (5%) exception. Most people with newer cars would be up near 50cents, which makes this whole scenario a LOSS!


I know for a fact my costs are $0.32. I bought my 2013 Acura TL as the new 2014 models were being delivered to the dealers. Got it with 7 miles on it for $7 grand less than sticker price. I also had equity on a trade in of $10,000, and the remainder was financed for only three years at 0.9% APR. So the financing costs me less than $200 per year. I have the cash to pay it off, but I make more than 0.9% per year having that cash in a money market account.

A lot of people aren't in my financial position, so yes, my car in the hands of another driver is likely to produce much higher than $0.32 per mile given their costs to obtain it.

That being said, I've run the numbers on getting a decent fuel efficient car, and without being raped on financing a person could drive that car for Uber at a cost of $0.20 to $0.25 per mile. It's doable. The important thing is every driver should now THEIR costs, because every driver's costs are different. If you don't know your costs, then you CANNOT KNOW YOUR PROFIT!



> 3) Most major cities are now at $.75/mile, which also produces a major loss.
> Who's still paying $1/mile?


Exactly! I used $1.00 per mile, because that's what it is in my city. I can't for the life of me imagine how little drivers are making in Lexington KY at $0.65 per mile. I suspect many are even losing money doing it.


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## UberHammer

Rich Brunelle said:


> No, I have to disagree. By you using your lesser amount to calculate your earnings, you are saying that Uber can also do so. You might be at 0.32 where I am in reality closer to 0.55. That is our variable for our use, it is your blanket "give me" on a variable that might change over the period of a year. To be just in your calc, use the approved amount, unless you want Uber not to use the approved amount also.


Every driver needs to know THEIR costs. It's different for everyone. As much as a disagree with Uber on a lot, I believe it's NOT Uber's responsibility to know YOUR costs to operate your car. The reason Uber is getting away with what it's doing is because far too many drivers DON'T know their costs and all the money being deposited in the bank account looks good to them.


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## UberHammer

Rich Brunelle said:


> But is that based on his costs year-to-date, or estimated costs for the year. Face it having to purchase a new tire can raise that figure so it is not a set rate. The 0.56 is a set rate that does not change unless you change tax forms.


My $0.32 per mile costs is calculated on the per mile life of tires, gas, services and the cost of obtaining the car, using 2015 prices for those items.


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Rich Brunelle said:


> But is that based on his costs year-to-date, or estimated costs for the year. Face it having to purchase a new tire can raise that figure so it is not a set rate. The 0.56 is a set rate that does not change unless you change tax forms.


Right, the $.56 includes deferred "hidden" costs that most ignore. I think it is really universal for all over time. Some are just trying to "cheat death" by driving an old/cheap car, but it will catch up to you. Case in point, a buddy just got a $1200 repair bill on his older Blazer, wiped out his whole month of Uber revenue! Any proper analysis should show a LOSS. :-( Anything south of $1.50/mile and ur losing $, that simple. Every (former) Uber driver with a brain is on strike right now! (P.S., I have proven time after time that $.57/mile is not just "some number", it is completely real!)


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## Actionjax

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Right, the $.56 includes deferred "hidden" costs that most ignore. I think it is really universal for all over time. Some are just trying to "cheat death" by driving an old/cheap car, but it will catch up to you. Case in point, a buddy just got a $1200 repair bill on his older Blazer, wiped out his whole month of Uber revenue! Any proper analysis should show a LOSS. :-( Anything south of $1.50/mile and ur losing $, that simple. Every (former) Uber driver with a brain is on strike right now!


Miles are not the only way to make money. Minimum base fares and time also need to be counted as well. If I told you were getting a $5 base fare and $0.60 per mile with $0.30 per min. You would be making as many minimum fares you could get your hands on. Try and make it up in volume. Especially if every pick up was 2 min away.

The point is this is all subjective by the individual markets and individual real expenses per mile. You need to look at all the numbers and one size does not fit all.


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## DrJeecheroo

Nice to see that actionjax and uberhammer kissed and made up!!!!!


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## UberHammer

DrJeecheroo said:


> Nice to see that actionjax and uberhammer kissed and made up!!!!!


Math is a universal agreement.... except to those who don't understand it.


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## Actionjax

DrJeecheroo said:


> Nice to see that actionjax and uberhammer kissed and made up!!!!!


Ya and he promised no tongue when we kissed.


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Actionjax said:


> Miles are not the only way to make money. Minimum base fares and time also need to be counted as well. If I told you were getting a $5 base fare and $0.60 per mile with $0.30 per min. You would be making as many minimum fares you could get your hands on. Try and make it up in volume. Especially if every pick up was 2 min away.
> 
> The point is this is all subjective by the individual markets and individual real expenses per mile. You need to look at all the numbers and one size does not fit all.


Yea, but we DONT have a $5 base fare, so ur wrong, miles are everything. The base fare just washes the SRF, and the minutes arent even worth calculating, its all about the mile.


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## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> Please do not bring the IRS standard mileage deduction into the conversation. The IRS also allows a standard living expense deduction too. That doesn't mean everyone who uses it actually has that much in living expenses. The IRS sets "standard deductions" all throughout the tax code so that not everyone has to incur the costs of hiring an accountant to file their taxes. That would be government putting an undue financial burden on all of society.


i stay saying the same thing, as if 57.5 is some static cost of maintaining a car for all amercians.
folks here throw a tomato at me every time i say use EXACT cost when trying to figure out EXACT profit


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## Actionjax

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Yea, but we DONT have a $5 base fare, so ur wrong, miles are everything. The base fare just washes the SRF, and the minutes arent even worth calculating, its all about the mile.


Again that's your market. I was just making a point that the whole picture needs to be looked at. In your market...it's all about the mile right now. With my base someone said my per mile works out to over $3 on short runs on average. If I told you I will pay you flat $3 per mile for the first 5 miles you would go trip happy.


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

The analysis is so much simpler than above: If your net fares (after uber cut) are $80 over say 5 hrs, but you drove 200 miles (x$.55), U spent $110 to obtain $80, & LOST $30, or ... LOST -$6/hr. That simple! I have many more posts that nail down the $.55/mile being right on (for 98% of the population), and that prove you lose $ at anything below $1.50/mile.


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## UberHammer

Here are the same numbers with ONE CHANGE ---> dead miles is only 40% of total miles (2 dead miles driven for every 3 billable miles driven)

My Non-variables:
Base rate = $0.50
Mileage rate = $1.00 per mile
Time rate = $0.17 per minute
SRF per trip = $1.00
Cost per mile to drive car = $0.32
No surge rates
No guarantee bonuses

My Variables:
Average miles per hour driving: 30 MPH (average includes time spent while stopped, i.e. traffic lights, waiting for customer, etc...)
Downtime per hour: zero (meaning no waiting for pings, driver is 100% utilized by Uber system)
Ratio of dead miles to billable miles: 40%
Trips per hour: 3


30 miles driven in an hour with 60% being billable produces 18 billable miles per hour.
At $1.00 per mile, that produces $18.00 in mileage revenue per hour.
Zero downtime per hour produces 60 minutes of work per hour.
40% ratio of dead miles to billable miles produces 36 minutes of billable minutes per hour.
At $0.17 per minute, 36 minutes of billable minutes per hour produces $6.12 in time revenue per hour.
3 trips per hour at $0.50 base rate per trip produces $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour.
3 trips per hour at $1.00 SRF per trip produces $3.00 in SRFs per hour.
*$18.00 in mileage revenue per hour, plus $6.12 in time revenue per hour, plus $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour, plus, $3.00 in SRFs per hour equals $28.62 in gross fares per hour. *


$28.62 minus $3.00 in SRFs equals $25.62 per hour.
$25.62 minus Ubers 20% commission (20% of $25.62) equals $20.50 per hour.

*Uber driver will receive $20.50 payment from Uber from the $28.62 gross fares per hour.*


30 miles driven per hour with a cost of $0.32 per mile equals $9.60 in costs.
$20.50 per hour minus $9.60 in costs equals $10.90 per hour.

*Uber driver can increase the $7.68 per hour by 42% to $10.90 per hour by reducing his dead miles to only 40% of total miles.*

How to reduce dead miles:

1) don't drive around while not on a fare (in this scenario you're 100% utilized so you're not doing this anyway)
*2) don't accept far away pings!!!!! (this is the only way to reduce dead miles in this scenario)*

As much as Uber wants you to accept all pings, accepting those far away ones is KILLING your profitability!!!


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> The analysis is so much simpler than above: If your net fares (after uber cut) are $80 over say 5 hrs, but you drove 200 miles (x$.55), U spent $110 to obtain $80, & LOST $30, or ... LOST -$6/hr. That simple! I have many more posts that nail down the $.55/mile being right on (for 98% of the population), and that prove you lose $ at anything below $1.50/mile.


still depends on your per mile rate and per min rate that's defined by market
obviously if you're getting paid $1.30/mile and 30/min, you're making more than 80 bucks for driving 200 miles


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> you cant tell him anything
> just look at his posts,he says Uber is not profitable in any way driving at ANY rate
> obviously Uber pulled his pants down and porked him


Wrong, it is/was profitable at/over $1.50/mile.
So now, right it is a loser no matter what :-(


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## Actionjax

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Wrong, it is/was profitable at/over $1.50/mile.
> So now, right it is a loser no matter what :-(


Just curious how did you calculate your mileage rate? What's the math behind it.


----------



## UberHammer

Actionjax said:


> Just curious how did you calculate your mileage rate? What's the math behind it.


I'm pretty sure it's the same math my 9 year old uses when he says his allowance doesn't buy anything.


----------



## Mrpushpop

If Columbus is surging anything like Cincinnati you should still be fine. I just don't drive base fares anymore. With the rate decreases in our markets, surges have gone out of control. Peak hours are fine. Saturday surges listed below.


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## Mrpushpop

Bart McCoy said:


> increases?


edited.


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## UberHammer

Mrpushpop said:


> If Columbus is surging anything like Cincinnati you should still be fine. I just don't drive base fares anymore. With the rate decreases in our markets, surges have gone out of control. Peak hours are fine. Saturday surges listed below.


It's been surging a lot here in Columbus. Took 10 trips last week. Five were surges, two were select, and three were base rates. I made $17.22 per hour after my costs... but my rating was 4.63, well below my 4.83 overall.

People rate low on surge. They hate it. So i'm done driving unless the Columbus manager finally lets me be UberSelect only.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Actionjax said:


> Just curious how did you calculate your mileage rate? What's the math behind it.


Very Simple: $1.50 x .8 = $1.20 x 50% dead miles (very typical, nobody really beats that) = $.60/mile, just above breakeven cost of $.55/mile. See how simple that was, I didnt need to take up a whole page. And yes, I am a Finance MBA. UberHammer, even if ur running costs are somehow only .32 (very rare), ur netting only about 8cents per mile, on a $1/mile rate. :-( Granted, thats only on base rates, on surges & Select, more power to ya!


----------



## UberHammer

Interesting story about one of those base rates I got. I was sitting offline for nearly an hour, doing work for my regular job from my car, all the while monitoring the rider app waiting for it to surge. I see it hit 1.9x. Go online. In less than a minute I get a ping... but it's not surge. Did I just experience a fake surge? No. It took me seconds to realize the pickup was literally just one block outside of the surge zone. BALLS! I almost let it pass, but quickly thought, it's only a mile away, and a ping in the surge zone could take me five miles south (I was sitting on the far north end of it). So I figure with the low dead mile cost it could be just as good as a surge fair. Accept and off I go.

Turns out it's a blind guy just needing to go to grocery store. I give him my arm to get him through the poorly shoveled walk of his apartment building and we're off. He says he'd been trying to get an UberX for quite some time. Got one 15 minutes away from him, and the driver cancelled. Got another who was 20 minutes away who also cancelled. I had been watching the rider app waiting for a surge to kick on at any moment, so it doesn't surprise me to hear what he's saying. He said he was so glad to see me pop up only two minutes away.

It was a $4 fare. Only profited $2.40, but also only put 2 to 3 miles on my car. And I felt really good knowing I made his day better. Gave him five stars. I know we don't drive for charity, but I can afford it when the opp presents itself.

Surge was gone after I got back in the car after walking him to the front door of Kroger. 30 minutes later surge was back, and back online I went. Got a $17.49 1.5x surge fare... who of course 4 starred me (BALLS!).


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## UberHammer

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Very Simple: $1.50 x .8 = $1.20 x 50% dead miles (very typical, nobody really beats that) = $.60/mile, just above breakeven cost of $.55/mile. See how simple that was, I didnt need to take up a whole page. And yes, I am a Finance MBA. UberHammer, even if ur running costs are somehow only .32 (very rare), ur netting only about 8cents per mile, on a $1/mile rate. :-( Granted, thats only on base rates, on surges & Select, more power to ya!


If Uber only paid for miles, you're right. They do pay for time and base rates too though. If you have issues with the math I present in the original post, then please be specific about them when pointing them out. Non-specific assumptions aren't very productive debates.


----------



## Luberon

UberHammer said:


> My Non-variables:
> Base rate = $0.50
> Mileage rate = $1.00 per mile
> Time rate = $0.17 per minute
> SRF per trip = $1.00
> Cost per mile to drive car = $0.32
> No surge rates
> No guarantee bonuses
> 
> My Variables:
> Average miles per hour driving: 30 MPH (average includes time spent while stopped, i.e. traffic lights, waiting for customer, etc...)
> Downtime per hour: zero (meaning no waiting for pings, driver is 100% utilized by Uber system)
> Ratio of dead miles to billable miles: 50%
> Trips per hour: 3
> 
> 
> 30 miles driven in an hour with 50% being billable produces 15 billable miles per hour.
> At $1.00 per mile, that produces $15.00 in mileage revenue per hour.
> Zero downtime per hour produces 60 minutes of work per hour.
> 50% ratio of dead miles to billable miles produces 30 minutes of billable minutes per hour.
> At $0.17 per minute, 30 minutes of billable minutes per hour produces $5.10 in time revenue per hour.
> 3 trips per hour at $0.50 base rate per trip produces $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour.
> 3 trips per hour at $1.00 SRF per trip produces $3.00 in SRFs per hour.
> *$15.00 in mileage revenue per hour, plus $5.10 in time revenue per hour, plus $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour, plus, $3.00 in SRFs per hour equals $24.60 in gross fares per hour. *
> 
> 
> $24.60 minus $3.00 in SRFs equals $21.60 per hour.
> $21.60 minus Ubers 20% commission (20% of $21.60) equals $17.28 per hour.
> 
> *Uber driver will receive $17.28 payment from Uber from the $24.60 gross fares per hour.*
> 
> 
> 30 miles driven per hour with a cost of $0.32 per mile equals $9.60 in costs.
> $17.28 per hour minus $9.60 in costs equals $7.68 per hour.
> 
> *Uber driver will profit only $7.68 per hour on $24.60 in gross fares, which Uber calls "Driver Earnings". *


Even when one gets _ultra efficient_ (3 paid miles for every dead mile/ unrealistic in practice) the earnings *ceiling is still around $9.6/hr *leaving all other variables same.


----------



## troubleinrivercity

I got an actual stomachache every time I did a ride on base rates, no surge. I justified it saying that I needed to do some daytime rides to buffer my rating against weekend/surge riders. But it just made me feel like a used fool, and I quit.


----------



## Luberon

Bart McCoy said:


> also of course this is market based
> as my min fare, base fare, and pay per min is greater than what's used in the OP


Why dont you share your maths with us? I guess it is the one in which your car does not depreciate since you were not going to sell it, right?


----------



## Actionjax

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Very Simple: $1.50 x .8 = $1.20 x 50% dead miles (very typical, nobody really beats that) = $.60/mile, just above breakeven cost of $.55/mile. See how simple that was, I didnt need to take up a whole page. And yes, I am a Finance MBA. UberHammer, even if ur running costs are somehow only .32 (very rare), ur netting only about 8cents per mile, on a $1/mile rate. :-( Granted, thats only on base rates, on surges & Select, more power to ya!


Again I asked you to explain the costs. How are you calculating your car costs to be what you have stated. You don't tell us anything here to go on. How do you calculate depreciation. Over how many years are you doing that on?


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> well if you are not selling your car, no, you shouldnt factor in depreciation. especially not when you add "dead" miles


I would say you still have depreciation as a calculation. Even if you drive it into the ground and have $0 left in it the depreciation is the time it takes till it's scrap. And the amount will depend on what year. Older it gets the less it will depreciate. Most cars the bulk depreciates in the first 4 years. Then it starts to slow. Why most leases are 48 months. It's the sweet spot that they have a good car to still sell.


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## uber_sea

This thread deserves a sticky. Excellent math.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Actionjax said:


> Again I asked you to explain the costs. How are you calculating your car costs to be what you have stated. You don't tell us anything here to go on. How do you calculate depreciation. Over how many years are you doing that on?


At $1.20/mile ur working for free, cuz half your miles have no paying pax, so ur netting about $.46/mile after uber cut. The $.57 includes gas ($.10, was $.20 last year), oil, tires, brakes, hoses, belts ... Etc.($.05), deferred repairs ($.05). (Actually, insurance is not part of this number, that is personal) Now take a $35K car, and call it dead at 100,000 miles, thats $.35/mile. There you go, $.55/mile ($.65 @ $4gas), pretty simple. Once over 100,000 miles, repairs will be around $.35/mile anyway, so that never really goes away, even after its paid off.
Even if you drive a shitty old beater, ur gonna be maybe $.05-.10 cheaper, is all. If your not north of $1.50/mile you're losing money, that simple. Even a 30 cent op cost is a loser, in a $.75/mile market. :-(


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## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> well if you are not selling your car, no, you shouldnt factor in depreciation. especially not when you add "dead" miles


If you bought a car for $1,000 and drove it until it died, the depreciation per mile you experienced is $1,000 divided by the number of miles you drove.

You're are essentially selling it to the junk yard for $0. (although some actually do pay you for it)


----------



## UberHammer

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Now take a $35K car, and call it dead at 100,000 miles, thats $.35/mile.


This math is correct. But it's not 1980 anymore. Cars last a lot longer than 100,000 miles now.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

UberHammer said:


> This math is correct. But it's not 1980 anymore. Cars last a lot longer than 100,000 miles now.


Yea, but A) you're gonna be repairing the shit out of it, so ur still paying, and B) ur rating is gonna suck for driving a beater, and u might get deactivated :-( Like I mentioned earlier, my buddy just had a $1200 repair bill on his 110,000 mile 2008 Blazer, after his first month of ubering :-(


----------



## UberHammer

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Yea, but A) you're gonna be repairing the shit out of it, so ur still paying, and B) ur rating is gonna suck for driving a beater, and u might get deactivated :-(


Yes, as cars get older their maintenance costs increase. The depreciation per mile however is far less. A car experiences around 50% of a its depreciation around the 50,000 mile mark. The other 50% of the depreciation occurs over the next 150,000 miles (some even longer). So yes, higher maintenance costs, but lower depreciation. If the owner pays cash, it's essentially a wash. Buying new or used is going to provide a similar cost per mile to the owner. But if the owner has to finance the new car, because the price is more expensive, then the financing raises the cost per mile, making the used car cost less per mile.

As for quality affecting ratings, we agree. Very few people are going to drive new cars for Uber because most new cars are financed. Drivers will opt for beaters because they can pay cash for them. If they could pay cash for a new car, it would cost relatively the same per mile, unless we're talking about a real peice of shit used car.


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> but you still used the word "sell".
> I said why use depreciation if you dont sell your car????????
> Its just like owning stock. You may pay $50/share,and it drops down to $1/share. However, you NEVER LOSE, unless you SELL


Throwing something away is no different than giving it is away.... which is no different than selling it for $0.


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## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> but you still used the word "sell".
> I said why use depreciation if you dont sell your car????????
> Its just like owning stock. You may pay $50/share,and it drops down to $1/share. However, you NEVER LOSE, unless you SELL


Really Bart, you are eating your car investment pretty much on a per mile basis (time doesnt matter much) so if u drive it ur spending $, dont drive it ur not. You are somehow trying to call ur car "free" cuz you dont plan to sell it. No, at the end ur $30k is gone (or at least lower), that is the depreciation, which can and should be converted to a per mile operating cost. What part of this are you not getting??? In ur car/stock scenario, ur eventually forced to "sell" ur car when its finally dead, then the whole $30k comes home all at once. It cost you a quantifiable $/mile.


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## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> explain to me how a car depreciates if you dont sell it?
> 
> If i pay $30,000 for a car, after 10 years I put 300,000 miles on it. The car may be worth 10 grand,but whats the point of putting a price on it if im not selling it?Im still out 30 grand
> If i pay $30,000 for a car, after 10 years I put 3,000 miles on it. THe car may be worth 20 grand, but whats the point of putting a price on it if im not selling it? Im still out 30 grand
> Maybe i have the definition of depreciation wrong. I thought it was how the value of an asset decreases over the years(and with cars miles). So why would I subtract depreciation costs while Ubering? The bottom line is i paid $30,000 for the car, that's how much the car will always cost me.(talking about purchase price). However if I sold the car, the purchase price would of course be less, and of course thats where depreciation comes into play


At some point in time, something will happen to the car. It will be sold, wrecked, scrapped, whatever. If you sell it, you may recover some of what you depreciated or it may sell for less than the amount. If the car is wrecked, the insurance company pays you on the depreciated amount. It is a standard cost of doing business that should be recognized. Your car loses value with each mile you put on it. If you don't, it is your loss.

It is like saying I shouldn't say there is any difference in the cost of eating a steak at home or eating one at Ruth's Chris. I was going to eat steak anyway.


----------



## Uber-Doober

UberHammer said:


> This math is correct. But it's not 1980 anymore. Cars last a lot longer than 100,000 miles now.


^^^
Yeah, ok... maybe 105,000 with the kind of abuse that Ubering puts on it. 
I actually have an old Volvo that I bought new in 1984..... a two door silver turbo that just turned 140 K on the clock. 
If it was a Uber car, it would have gone to the crusher a decade ago and come back as a Prius.


----------



## UberHammer

Uber-Doober said:


> ^^^
> Yeah, ok... maybe 105,000 with the kind of abuse that Ubering puts on it.
> I actually have an old Volvo that I bought new in 1984..... a two door silver turbo that just turned 140 K on the clock.
> If it was a Uber car, it would have gone to the crusher a decade ago and come back as a Prius.


Good point. These Uber miles are NOT "highway miles" for the most part.


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## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> im not trying to assume the car is free. clearly I said I paid 30grand in my example
> 300,000 miles later, i still will have paid 30grand for it, because im not selling
> as for the purchase of the car, deprecation plays no part, unless youre selling
> if you are saying as you get hundreds of thousands of miles you'll have to do more maintenance,that may be true
> but im not sure maintenance is in the definition of depreciation,as most of the time its foreseeable maintenance when somebody sells a car at 300,000 miles


Maintenance is separate and apart from depreciation. One has nothing to do with the other.


----------



## UberHammer

Uberdawg said:


> It is like saying I shouldn't say there is any difference in the cost of eating a steak at home or eating one at Ruth's Chris. I was going to eat steak anyway.


And saying "I'm not going to sell the steak, so I'm not consuming its value."


----------



## Actionjax

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> At $1.20/mile ur working for free, cuz half your miles have no paying pax, so ur netting about $.46/mile after uber cut. The $.57 includes gas ($.10, was $.20 last year), oil, tires, brakes, hoses, belts ... Etc.($.05), deferred repairs ($.05). (Actually, insurance is not part of this number, that is personal) Now take a $35K car, and call it dead at 100,000 miles, thats $.35/mile. There you go, $.55/mile ($.65 @ $4gas), pretty simple. Once over 100,000 miles, repairs will be around $.35/mile anyway, so that never really goes away, even after its paid off.
> Even if you drive a shitty old beater, ur gonna be maybe $.05-.10 cheaper, is all. If your not north of $1.50/mile you're losing money, that simple. Even a 30 cent op cost is a loser, in a $.75/mile market. :-(


Sorry your math is a bit inflated. A $35,000 car there is no way it's dead at 100,000 miles. The new norm is for a car that value almost double. So take that number and cut it by half.

http://business.time.com/2012/03/20/what-you-only-have-100k-miles-on-your-car-thats-nothing/

Lets say Gas is $2.50 per Gal right now. (I'm guessing) A Prius which is the benchmark for UberX gives 50 mpg City. So do 100 Miles that's 2 Gal so gas works out to $0.05 per mile. Again half your evaluation.

I'm not even going to touch the other stuff. But I think you get the point here. You could be right on the Gas if it's a standard gas eater of a car at $0.10. But a car evaluation is way off. Look at the car in a leasing agreement over say 3 years with 100,000 miles on it and you will see what the buy out is on it. It's not zero. In any Lease they have calculations for this as a Lease is nothing more than financing deprecation over time. Don't use the penalty rate use the up front dealer rate.

Hope that helps...something tells me you may not agree with that.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> im not trying to assume the car is free. clearly I said I paid 30grand in my example
> 300,000 miles later, i still will have paid 30grand for it, because im not selling
> as for the purchase of the car, deprecation plays no part, unless youre selling
> if you are saying as you get hundreds of thousands of miles you'll have to do more maintenance,that may be true
> but im not sure maintenance is in the definition of depreciation,as most of the time its foreseeable maintenance when somebody sells a car at 300,000 miles


No, it doesnt matter if you ever "sell the car" or not. Depreciation is the difference between purchase price and current value, which basically widens with each mile.


----------



## Uber-Doober

UberHammer said:


> Good point. These Uber miles are NOT "highway miles" for the most part.


^^^
Yup!
Last Summer I had the occasion to take off the valve cover to adjust a clicking valve lifter with a little thin shim. 
Guess what? 
No sludge on the inside of the cam cover, it was clean as a whistle with just a film of Mobil 1 over everything. 
I still ran a bore brush through the oil drainback holes and everything was clear.

You're another member here who is way cool.


----------



## MikeB

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Really Bart, you are eating your car investment pretty much on a per mile basis (time doesn"t matter much) so if u drive it ur spending $, dont drive it ur not. You are somehow trying to call ur car "free" cuz you dont plan to sell it. No, at the end ur $30k is gone (or at least lower), that is the depreciation, which can and should be converted to a per mile operating cost. What part of this are you not getting???


You can't reason with him. He equates owning the vehicle with owning a stock: "if the price of the stock drops, you didn't lose anything before you sold, i.e. realized your losses". That is *uber-stupid* (c) equation. Stock is not being used to make money daily Ubering on it as the cars are. In this conversation to determine the hourly wages of drivers based on certain Uber hourly rate to bring a stock as an example of non-depreciation until a loss is realized is ludicrous.
Why, if to follow his ill logic, not to question IRS rules allowing annual mileage deduction, or real estate annual depreciation due to wear and tear? It's not sold, right? So, it didn't depreciate. What an idiot!
This dude is a troll.


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> if i keep my car and NEVER sell it, please please please tell me how depreciation comes into play


Depreciation isn't an aspect mutually exclusive to automobiles. Lots of different kinds of assets depreciate for lots of different reasons.

They can depreciate because the owner consumes their useful purpose. They can depreciate because they were neglected and deteriorated. They can depreciate because the market demand for them drops. Etc, etc...

When you have a car you bought that you will drive until it dies, it is depreciating because you are consuming its useful purpose. When it no longer serves you its purpose, it's completely depreciated.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Actionjax said:


> Sorry your math is a bit inflated. A $35,000 car there is no way it's dead at 100,000 miles. The new norm is for a car that value almost double. So take that number and cut it by half.
> 
> http://business.time.com/2012/03/20/what-you-only-have-100k-miles-on-your-car-thats-nothing/
> 
> Lets say Gas is $2.50 per Gal right now. (I'm guessing) A Prius which is the benchmark for UberX gives 50 mpg City. So do 100 Miles that's 2 Gal so gas works out to $0.05 per mile. Again half your evaluation.
> 
> I'm not even going to touch the other stuff. But I think you get the point here. You could be right on the Gas if it's a standard gas eater of a car at $0.10. But a car evaluation is way off. Look at the car in a leasing agreement over say 3 years with 100,000 miles on it and you will see what the buy out is on it. It's not zero. In any Lease they have calculations for this as a Lease is nothing more than financing deprecation over time. Don't use the penalty rate use the up front dealer rate.
> 
> Hope that helps...something tells me you may not agree with that.


No, we're both right, I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle. But, even though u say car not "dead" at 100k, its not worth much either, so my numbers still work. Yes, I drive a new fancy standard gas mileage car. Cant tell you how many pax ***** about the god dam Prius & say they shouldnt be allowed. It doesnt really matter, you couldnt make a real profit driving a bike at these rates! :-(


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> i understand that
> but a wreck or something is something unforseen
> so unless something unforseen happens, i have NO intention on selling the car
> so say nothing bad happens like scrapped,wrecked,sold....
> if i keep my car and NEVER sell it, please please please tell me how depreciation comes into play. you agreed maitenance plays no roll, so tell me why i should subtract depreciation from my Uber pay when the car is never ever sold?


I mean, what do you want to me say. You can set up any scenario you want to achieve your desired outcome. Using your contorted scenario then you start the Uber experience negative 30G's. Which way do you want to look at it. Sooner or later, unless you live in the sticks and your old cars rust in the front yard, the car is going to be sold. Even if it is by your heirs when you croak. Even if it is to the crusher.

If you don't want to factor in depreciation, by all means *DON'T*. I, as will most other clear minded drivers, factor it as a cost of doing business because it is not going to become a raccoon nest in my front yard.


----------



## troubleinrivercity

Also it is complete madness to assume 300,000 miles out of a car that has been Ubered in. 300k is for cars that haven’t been roundly abused. We’re rolling the dice on the health of every one of our car’s systems.


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> explain to me how a car depreciates if you dont sell it?
> 
> If i pay $30,000 for a car, after 10 years I put 300,000 miles on it. The car may be worth 10 grand,but whats the point of putting a price on it if im not selling it?Im still out 30 grand
> If i pay $30,000 for a car, after 10 years I put 3,000 miles on it. THe car may be worth 20 grand, but whats the point of putting a price on it if im not selling it? Im still out 30 grand
> Maybe i have the definition of depreciation wrong. I thought it was how the value of an asset decreases over the years(and with cars miles). So why would I subtract depreciation costs while Ubering? The bottom line is i paid $30,000 for the car, that's how much the car will always cost me.(talking about purchase price). However if I sold the car, the purchase price would of course be less, and of course thats where depreciation comes into play


Here is a better way to look at it. If you went bankrupt tomorrow, and I was the trustee involved with liquidating your assets, what would that asset be worth on the market. That's what has been used on a depreciating asset.

I get you say you will never sell it so why are you counting it. But the fact is there is a cost of ownership. You make payments on it, you pay for things to keep it going, all factor in the cost of ownership. Uber use increases that cost of ownership.

You don't have to count that when you do Uber. But what it says you are letting Uber use your asset for free. And they pay you. Regardless of what's paid you have incurred something to have that job done. A car is not fixed and expires like a carton of milk. Always will be. And you do want to go get another carton of milk someday or you will have nothing for cereal in the morning.


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> terrible analogy, when obviously the first thing you notice is the difference of the $5 steak at home, and the $55 steak at ruth chris
> theres a $50 difference there, you dont see it?


But according to you, since you would never sell neither of them, your purchase of either of them would never depreciate.


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> terrible analogy, when obviously the first thing you notice is the difference of the $5 steak at home, and the $55 steak at ruth chris
> theres a $50 difference there, you dont see it?


Nope. I can buy an aged filet and grill it in my back yard better than them for 20 bucks.

Maybe that's the problem here. You have been eating cheap beef.


----------



## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> Depreciation isn't an aspect mutually exclusive to automobiles. Lots of different kinds of assets depreciate for lots of different reasons.
> 
> They can depreciate because the owner consumes their useful purpose. They can depreciate because they were neglected and deteriorated. They can depreciate because the market demand for them drops. Etc, etc...
> 
> When you have a car you bought that you will drive until it dies, it is depreciating because you are consuming its useful purpose. When it no longer serves you its purpose, it's completely depreciated.


agreed
but again, other then knowing the value of a car at any given point, how does depreciation affect me financially if i never sell,and never intended to sell it? Lets say at 500,000 miles the car is completely depreciated. Since the value is now $0, the $30,000 i spent on it is gone. BUT, i knew my $30,000 was gone the day I bought it. Yall understand now?

so no one has yet to tell me how i'm financially affected by depreciation if i NEVER sell the car
folks are dancing around the subject, but cant tell me financially what ive lost due to depreciation!!!

If i buy a car for $30,000, and 22years later I run it into the ground,and its worth $0. How much money did I lose if i never wanted to sell the car?

simple question


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> agreed
> but again, other then knowing the value of a car at any given point, how does depreciation affect me financially if i never sell,and never intended to sell it? at 500,000 miles the car is completely deprecitated. the $30,000 i spent on it is gone. BUT, i knew my $30,000 was gone the day I bought it. Yall understand now?
> 
> no one has yet to tell me how i'm financially affect by depreciation if i NEVER sell the car
> folks are dancing around the subject, but cant tell me financially what ive lost due to depreciation!!!


Depreciation affects you when it occurs as a result of consumption. And when that consumption is done in the pursuit of earning revenue, it is a cost of that revenue.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uberdawg said:


> I mean, what do you want to me say. You can set up any scenario you want to achieve your desired outcome. Using your contorted scenario then you start the Uber experience negative 30G's. Which way do you want to look at it. Sooner or later, unless you live in the sticks and your old cars rust in the front yard, the car is going to be sold. Even if it is by your heirs when you croak. Even if it is to the crusher.
> 
> If you don't want to factor in depreciation, by all means *DON'T*. I, as will most other clear minded drivers, factor it as a cost of doing business because it is not going to become a raccoon nest in my front yard.


dont run away because you cant answer my question about depreciation when i dont sell the car

so basically, my scenario of never selling a car is farfetched to you? like nobody does that. EVERYONE sells every car they buy?
another expert....


----------



## UberHammer

Luberon said:


> Burying your head in the sand does not stop the hand of time


But 160,000 heads buried in the sand is very lucrative to Uber.


----------



## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> But according to you, since you would never sell neither of them, your purchase of either of them would never depreciate.


WRONG
i never denied depreciation happens
but it only happens when you are trying to value a car for a purpose, not just because!!
meaning if i dont sell the car, depreciation means nothing. at least financially it doesnt. i dont lose nothing or gain nothing due to deppreciation. What you "lost" is already known at purchase time! but if you sell a car, duh, of course it does. my simple point


----------



## Uberdawg

Actionjax said:


> Here is a better way to look at it. If you went bankrupt tomorrow,


Which he probably will since he can't see the reasons you would recognize depreciation.


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> I know what deprecation is: at any given moment in the life of a car its worth
> however, for the 30th time, if i never ever sell the car, what the heck is the benefit of calcuating depreciation? worse yet subtract it when calculating Uber pay? the only thing depreciation could be used for is simply for something to know,but it doesnt factor in fincanically ANYWHERE. if so, tell me where....


Back to the milk example. If you keep drinking your milk till it's empty and you paid $5 for the milk it still cost you $5 divided by the time it took you to drink it. that's the cost of the milk over time. Your car is the same thing. Unless you are ok funding Uber with free milk. Then in that case Uber will keep giving less money for the milk you drink to buy a new carton.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uberdawg said:


> Which he probably will since he can't see the reasons you would recognize depreciation.


if you can read, you know I do recognize depreciation
i just dont choose to sell everything i own
but when i plan to sell something, then of course depreciation comes into play.


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> WRONG
> i never denied depreciation happens
> *but it only happens when you are trying to value a car for a purpose,* not just because!!
> meaning if i dont sell the car, depreciation means nothing. at least financially it doesnt. i dont lose nothing or gain nothing due to deppreciation. What you "lost" is already known at purchase time! but if you sell a car, duh, of course it does. my simple point


And that purpose is to profit from your Uber revenue. If you ignore it, you are ignoring a cost of that revenue.

Selling the car is not the only financial purpose a car can have, but you are limiting your point of view to that and only that.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> Back to the milk example. If you keep drinking your milk till it's empty and you paid $5 for the milk it still cost you $5 divided by the tile it took you to drink it. that's the cost of the milk over time. Your car is the same thing. Unless you are ok funding Uber with free milk. Then in that case Uber will keep giving less money for the milk you drink to buy a new carton.


another terrible example
in my case i bought a car for $30,000. with no intent to sale. so from the moment i walk out the dealer, I know i lost $30,000
in your case I bought milk for $5,i have no intent to sell that milk. so from the moment i walk out the grocery, i know i lost 5 on the milk
now tell me how using depreciation, in the above examples, changes the $30,000 loss price or the $5 milk loss?

I'll wait............................


----------



## MikeB

Bart McCoy said:


> agreed
> but again, other then knowing the value of a car at any given point, how does depreciation affect me financially if i never sell,and never intended to sell it? Lets say at 500,000 miles the car is completely depreciated. Since the value is now $0, the $30,000 i spent on it is gone. BUT, i knew my $30,000 was gone the day I bought it. Yall understand now?
> 
> so no one has yet to tell me how i'm financially affected by depreciation if i NEVER sell the car
> folks are dancing around the subject, but cant tell me financially what ive lost due to depreciation!!!
> 
> If i buy a car for $30,000, and 22years later I run it into the ground,and its worth $0. How much money did I lose if i never wanted to sell the car?
> 
> simple question


Simple answer:
You can NOT appraise valuables (houses, cars, pictures, jewelry, clothing, etc.) based on your clause attached to it: "If I never sell it".
This clause of yours makes an appraisal (a valid tool/process available to everyone and everywhere to determine the value of any tangible and intangible asset) IMPOSSIBLE.
You clause is unique TO YOU ONLY. It is not valid to anyone anywhere. Everything has its price, even your own possessions. Suppose if YOU changed your mind NOT to sell a car? What would be value of it then? It will be based on amount of miles you've put on it - how much you've DEPRECIATED you car.
Suppose you died. And the estate is being liquidated by your relatives. Your car is sold based on ITS MARKET VALUE. It is determined by the amount of miles you put on it.
Capish?


----------



## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> And that purpose is to profit from your Uber revenue. If you ignore it, you are ignoring a cost of that revenue.
> 
> Selling the car is not the only financial purpose a car can have, but you are limiting your point of view to that and only that.


im sorry but, me and other people, intend to never sell our car
with that being said, how can the purpose of depreciation be used for Uber revenue?

selling the car is not the only financial purpose
so what other purpose can it be used for in relation to depreciation?
you can make money by driving for uber, but if you're not selling,then its not in relation to depreciation

so again, I'll wait...............


----------



## Actionjax

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> No, we're both right, I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle. But, even though u say car not "dead" at 100k, its not worth much either, so my numbers still work. Yes, I drive a new fancy standard gas mileage car. Cant tell you how many pax ***** about the god dam Prius & say they shouldnt be allowed. It doesnt really matter, you couldnt make a real profit driving a bike at these rates! :-(


But it is worth something. I would recon probably 1/3 the price of new. But that depends on the car model and it's resale value. A Benz or BMW do well at those numbers. This is why most Cabs in Germany are Benz. They last a long time.

North American cars never do well in the market. And that's unfortunate as they are not that bad like they used to be.

So do your numbers how you see fit. I think we can all agree in the end the Math is sound while the variables are up for debate. (Like my tax return this year)


----------



## Bart McCoy

Luberon said:


> You paid 30k for your car expecting to get value (mileage + convenience +/- prestige) out of it.
> 
> If you never sell the car ever, the day you stop driving the car whether at 10k or at 450,000 mi you have extracted the maximum value out of it. Lets say you drove 100k miles then locked the car indefinitely (or burned it), then you paid $30k/100k mi = .30 cents for each mile you enjoyed out of the car.
> 
> If on the other hand you sell the car for $5000 after 100,000 mi then you paid only $25,000 or 0.25 cents per mile in addition to whatever it costs you to maintain the car.
> 
> If you bought a house in cash today and never intend to sell it, does that make its value $0? Will you rent the said house for free just because you never plan to sell it?


you are doing nothing but DEFINING what depreciation is
we already know what it is
my question is, how does depreciation affect me financially if i never sell the car?

you said "sell the car after 100,000". scrap that,because i clearly sad not selling
you said bought a house today. its only worth money FINANCAILLY to me, if i sell it
if I bought a hosue for $20,000 20 years ago, and today its worth $2million. Do i have 2 million dollars??? NO. I only have 2 mil if I SELL it!!!!!!!!
hopefully you guys understand now, smh


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> im sorry but, me and other people, intend to never sell our car
> with that being said, how can the purpose of depreciation be used for Uber revenue?
> 
> selling the car is not the only financial purpose
> so what other purpose can it be used for in relation to depreciation?
> you can make money by driving for uber, but if you're not selling,then its not in relation to depreciation
> 
> so again, I'll wait...............


I honestly believe you are asking these questions with no desire to hear the answer. Because the answer has been given over and over, and from many different angles in the hopes that one will make sense to you.

Like you, I could say there is no purpose to ask questions other than to learn the answer. But I would be wrong in saying that, because obviously you are an example where that is not the case.


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> if you can read, you know I do recognize depreciation
> i just dont choose to sell everything i own
> but when i plan to sell something, then of course depreciation comes into play.


So, again to your tortured analogy, if you never sell your car, you lost 30K the minute you bought it. I on the other hand have not had to assume the financial loss you have because I am going to sell my vehicle before it becomes a rusted hulk, so I am not already upside down 30 grand. I will take my loss in increments (if there is one). Like I said, the vast majority of people sell their car at some point even if it is to the junkyard. So, let it rust in your yard.

As to stocks, you do not have to sell them to recognize the appreciation of their value. They are used for collateral every day at the current price, not the one you paid.


----------



## Bart McCoy

MikeB said:


> Simple answer:
> You can NOT appraise valuables (houses, cars, pictures, jewelry, clothing, etc.) based on your clause attached to it: "If I never sell it".
> This clause of yours makes an appraisal (a valid tool/process available to everyone and everywhere to determine the value of any tangible and intangible asset) IMPOSSIBLE.
> You clause is unique TO YOU ONLY. It is not valid to anyone anywhere. Everything has its price, even your own possessions. Suppose if YOU changed your mind NOT to sell a car? What would be value of it then? It will be based on amount of miles you've put on it - how much you've DEPRECIATED you car.
> Suppose you died. And the estate is being liquidated by your relatives. Your car is sold based on ITS MARKET VALUE. It is determined by the amount of miles you put on it.
> Capish?


smh
nobod is disputing this
we know what depreciation is
it puts a price on an asset after a given set of time
my question again is:
HOW DOES DEPRECIATION AFFECT ME FINANCIALLY IF I DONT SELL IT?
follow me here..... my car may be worth $2,000 after 250,00miles. I'm not disputing that. but again...IF I NEVER SELL IT.........
are you following me now?

repeat: i am not disputing after time an asset may have a lower or higher value, im asking how does it actually AFFECT me financially if I NEVER sell it

I'll wait......................


----------



## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> I honestly believe you are asking these questions with no desire to hear the answer. Because the answer has been given over and over, and from many different angles in the hopes that one will make sense to you.
> .


there has not been ONE asnwer to my questionn. Yall keep telling me a car loses value like I dont know that and havent said that over and over again

so without dancing around, answer my question is one sentence:
how does depreciation affect me FINANCIALLY if i never sell the car

if you mentioned the word sell in your answer then you're wrong from the jump


----------



## chi1cabby

Bart McCoy said:


> HOW DOES DEPRECIATION AFFECT ME FINANCIALLY IF I DONT SELL IT?


Okay let's agree that it's fine for @Bart McCoy to not account for depreciation since he's not going to sell his car.
Stop answering him...you are allowing him to flame another good thread to waste by continually responding to his posts.


----------



## Luberon

Bart McCoy said:


> so without dancing around, answer my question is one sentence:
> how doe depreciation affect me FINANCIALLY if i never sell the car
> 
> if you mentioned the word sell in your answer then you're wrong from the jump


How can you be sure your poop stinks if you never poop?


----------



## MikeB

Bart McCoy said:


> smh
> nobod is disputing this
> we know what depreciation is
> it puts a price on an asset after a given set of time
> my question again is:
> HOW DOES DEPRECIATION AFFECT ME FINANCIALLY IF I DONT SELL IT?
> follow me here..... my car may be worth $2,000 after 250,00miles. I'm not disputing that. but again...IF I NEVER SELL IT.........
> are you following me now?
> 
> repeat: i am not disputing after time an asset may have a lower or higher value, im asking how does it actually AFFECT me financially if I NEVER sell it
> 
> I'll wait......................


Did you read my reply?
We are not talking about YOU.
We are talking about millions of cars and hundreds of thousands of Uber drivers.
Why are you asking about yourself?


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> there has not been ONE asnwer to my questionn. Yall keep telling me a car loses value like I dont know that and havent said that over and over again
> 
> so without dancing around, answer my question is one sentence:
> how does depreciation affect me FINANCIALLY if i never sell the car
> 
> if you mentioned the word sell in your answer then you're wrong from the jump


Thanks for ruining the thread. Goodbye.


----------



## getFubered

Wow this is seriously so simple. If you don't want to look at the value of the car fine. There is no way around this scenario-you spent 30k on a car that will only last so long. Driving for Uber you are shortening the life of that vehicle (it will not last you until you're dead). Unlike people that dont drive for Uber, you will have to purchase more cars in your life time. A normal person say 5 cars and you 12 (just throwing out numbers). 7 extra cars at 30k a pop is over a quarter million at the end of your simple life that you wont have when compared to someone who cashes the same size "paycheck" as you who doesnt drive for Uber.


----------



## Actionjax

So lets ask this again in a different way...because after this I'm giving up.

When you use your car would you say you have consumption on that car?
And is that consumption finite or infinite?

Lets start with the basics. See if we can get somewhere.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uberdawg said:


> So, again to your tortured analogy, if you never sell your car, you lost 30K the minute you bought it. I on the other hand have not had to assume the financial loss you have because I am going to sell my vehicle before it becomes a rusted hulk, so I am not already upside down 30 grand. I will take my loss in increments (if there is one). Like I said, the vast majority of people sell their car at some point even if it is to the junkyard. So, let it rust in your yard.
> 
> As to stocks, you do not have to sell them to recognize the appreciation of their value. They are used for collateral every day at the current price, not the one you paid.


I lost 30K the minute I bought. um DUH, are you reading anything ive said? I been said I know what I lost the moment I bought the car

and the you go talking about selling the car, smh. has NOTHING to do with my simple point of not ever selling the car

who cares if people sell their car at one point? why are you guys going off on a tangent? I clearly said NEVER EVER would I sell the car,and all your so called right answers are about selling the car, smh

as for stock, i never debated that a stock worth $0....is not worth $0.... I have said you never lose money, say if you paid $50 for it, IF YOU DONT SELL. You may hate that, but its FACT

Clearly not selling a stock is way different than the topic of the value of a stock. stay on point


----------



## getFubered

Sell it or dont sell it. Who gives a ****. At some point you'll have to pay for new means of transportation you wouldnt otherwise have had to.


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> smh
> nobod is disputing this
> we know what depreciation is
> it puts a price on an asset after a given set of time
> my question again is:
> HOW DOES DEPRECIATION AFFECT ME FINANCIALLY IF I DONT SELL IT?
> follow me here..... my car may be worth $2,000 after 250,00miles. I'm not disputing that. but again...IF I NEVER SELL IT.........
> are you following me now?
> 
> repeat: i am not disputing after time an asset may have a lower or higher value, im asking how does it actually AFFECT me financially if I NEVER sell it
> 
> I'll wait......................


I feel like a fish that has taken the lure. No one is this obtuse without a goal.

You are right, you are the smartest guy in the room. Since you never plan on selling your car anyway, it costs you nothing to drive for Uber. Got it. When you go to the dealer to buy another car after you have put 300K miles on this one 10 years ahead of schedule, tell him your theory. Tell him how it didn't cost you anything to drive for Uber because you are never selling your car even though you cut it's useful life by 100% He may give you the Special Ed rebate to make up the difference.


----------



## Bart McCoy

getFubered said:


> Wow this is seriously so simple. If you don't want to look at the value of the car fine. There is no way around this scenario-you spent 30k on a car that will only last so long. Driving for Uber you are shortening the life of that vehicle (it will not last you until you're dead). Unlike people that dont drive for Uber, you will have to purchase more cars in your life time. A normal person say 5 cars and you 12 (just throwing out numbers). 7 extra cars at 30k a pop is over a quarter million at the end of your simple life that you wont have when compared to someone who cashes the same size "paycheck" as you who doesnt drive for Uber.


so you admit I was right?
because all I see is you dancing around my simply point of how depreciation affects me if i dont sell my car
and assuming people will buy a car is a non-proven variable


----------



## Uberdawg

getFubered said:


> Sell it or dont sell it. Who gives a ****. At some point you'll have to pay for new means of transportation you wouldnt otherwise have had to.


This X100


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> So lets ask this again in a different way...because after this I'm giving up.
> 
> When you use your car would you say you have consumption on that car?
> And is that consumption finite or infinite?
> 
> Lets start with the basics. See if we can get somewhere.


I'm not debating depreciation exists
I'm not debating that i would "consume" the car the more I drive it
I am only debating how depreciation affects me FINANCIALLY if i never sell the car so why would I use it to deduct from my Uber payments.
If you read all my replies, i have ONLY debated deprecation in relationship to how it affects me financially. THat's it!!!


----------



## Bart McCoy

getFubered said:


> Sell it or dont sell it. Who gives a ****. At some point you'll have to pay for new means of transportation you wouldnt otherwise have had to.


well selling your or not, should come into play if you're using it to calculate Uber profits

i dont have to buy a car ever again
i dont have to pay for new transportation ever again
those are not always true variables


----------



## Actionjax

So you do agree when you drive it for Uber you are consuming your car more? And if that's the case are you counting your consumption in your calculations?


----------



## MikeB

Bart McCoy said:


> I lost 30K the minute I bought. um DUH, are you reading anything ive said? I been said I know what I lost the moment I bought the car
> 
> and the you go talking about selling the car, smh. has NOTHING to do with my simple point of not ever selling the car
> 
> who cares if people sell their car at one point? why are you guys going off on a tangent? I clearly said NEVER EVER would I sell the car,and all your so called right answers are about selling the car, smh
> 
> as for stock, i never debated that a stock worth $0....is not worth $0.... I have said you never lose money, say if you paid $50 for it, IF YOU DONT SELL. You may hate that, but its FACT
> 
> Clearly not selling a stock is way different than the topic of the value of a stock. stay on point


You didn't lose 30K the minute you bought it.
Car is worth somewhat close to what you paid for it the minute you bought it.
Even if you, BMC, the Uberpople.net forum uber-troll never intend to sell it, YOUR CAR'S DEPRICIATION affects you:
You went to the bank to apply for a loan. On a loan application bank asks you to list your assets. You cannot put 30K on a 5-year old car with 200,000 miles on it. You cannot put 0 either. What you would put is its market value at that very moment: KBB of it with the miles you put on it Ubering on.
If you didn't Uber the value would be higher, because you did not DEPRICIATE it Ubering on and putting miles on it.
Capish?


----------



## chi1cabby

Uberdawg said:


> No one is this obtuse without a goal.


Excellent observation.
And repeatedly so in thread after after!


----------



## getFubered

Bart McCoy said:


> so you admit I was right?
> because all I see is you dancing around my simply point of how depreciation affects me if i dont sell my car
> and assuming people will buy a car is a non-proven variable





Bart McCoy said:


> I'm not debating depreciation exists
> I'm not debating that i would "consume" the car the more I drive it
> I am only debating how depreciation affects me FINANCIALLY if i never sell the car so why would I use it to deduct from my Uber payments.
> If you read all my replies, i have ONLY debated deprecation in relationship to how it affects me financially. THat's it!!!


This is how I know another rate cut is coming


----------



## UberHammer




----------



## Uberdawg

chi1cabby said:


> Excellent observation.
> And repeatedly so in thread after after!


I haven't really read much of his stuff before and since I tend to suffer fools lightly, I won't be reading much in the future.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> So you do agree when you drive it for Uber you are consuming your car more? And if that's the case are you counting your consumption in your calculations?


not gonna respond until you get back on topic
topic is about depreciation and being financially affected if I dont sell my car


----------



## chi1cabby

Bart McCoy said:


> well selling your or not, should come into play if you're using it to calculate Uber profits
> 
> i dont have to buy a car ever again
> i dont have to pay for new transportation ever again
> those are not always true variables


So your Uber career, and hopefully your presence on the Forum, will come to an end when your car is too old (10-15 model years) to drive for Uber, and you'd not be buying another car.


----------



## Bart McCoy

MikeB said:


> You didn't lose 30K the minute you bought it.
> Car is worth somewhat close to what you paid for it the minute you bought it.
> Even if you, BMC, the Uberpople.net forum uber-troll never intend to sell it, YOUR CAR'S DEPRICIATION affects you:
> You went to the bank to apply for a loan. On a loan application bank asks you to list your assets. You cannot put 30K on a 5-year old car with 200,000 miles on it. You cannot put 0 either. What you would put is its market value at that very moment: KBB of it with the miles you put on it Ubering on.
> If you didn't Uber the value would be higher, because you did not DEPRICIATE it Ubering on and putting miles on it.
> Capish?


thats your best?
when i bought the car, i had no intent to use it for any loan
if i wanted a loan, i would be trying to get the loan using another asset. i already accepted 30,000 as a loss for the car the day I bought it,becuase i knew I wasnt going to sell


----------



## Uberdawg

chi1cabby said:


> So your Uber career, and hopefully your presence on the Forum, will come to an end when your car is too old (10-15 model years) to drive for Uber, and you'd not be buying another car.


It's a shame you can only like shit once.


----------



## MikeB

chi1cabby said:


> So your Uber career, and hopefully your presence on the Forum, will come to an end when your car is too old (10-15 model years) to drive for Uber, and you'd not be buying another car.


He probably never has to pay for gas and maintenance either.


----------



## Actionjax

chi1cabby said:


> So your Uber career, and hopefully your presence on the Forum, will come to an end when your car is too old (10-15 model years) to drive for Uber, and you'd not be buying another car.


You ruined my punch line...lol


----------



## Bart McCoy

chi1cabby said:


> So your Uber career, and hopefully your presence on the Forum, will come to an end when your car is too old (10-15 model years) to drive for Uber, and you'd not be buying another car.


yes, but you'll have to endure 10-15 more years of me first,enjoy


----------



## Bart McCoy

i mean seriously, how hard is it for yall to admit that for any legitimate purpose of calculating depreciation for financial purposes, would be if you sell it?

of course you use depreciation to know that your 20yr old car is worth 25grand because you only put 2,500 miles on it. But financially, you're not capitalizing on its worth. You pretty much can only do that.....by selling it!


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> not gonna respond until you get back on topic
> topic is about depreciation and being financially affected if I dont sell my car


No it's not actually, its how to calculate your expenses. So how about you stay on topic and answer the question. Because lets say we take the word depreciation off the table and you look at consumption only. What do you have when the car is too old to do Uber. What you are left with is No more Uber or a car that you need to sell. What is it you think your end game looks like?

That's what's missing here from you. What is your end game?


----------



## UberHammer

MikeB said:


> He probably never has to pay for gas and maintenance either.


I have bought hundreds of $40 tanks of gas over the years. I've never sold one of them, and never plan to. So it costs me nothing in gas to Uber.


----------



## Uberdawg

MikeB said:


> He probably never has to pay for gas and maintenance either.


Yes, because he bought the gas because he was going to use gas anyway and since he is never going to sell the gas the gas is not an expense. Even though he consumes the gas, it is not an expense.

I think he may be an ex-Arthur Andersen auditor. His Enron stock didn't cost anything either.


----------



## Uberdawg

UberHammer said:


> I have bought hundreds of $40 tanks of gas over the years. I've never sold one of them, and never plan to. So it costs me nothing in gas to Uber.


Damnit, you were faster


----------



## chi1cabby

Bart McCoy said:


> yes, but you'll have to endure 10-15 more years of me first,enjoy


Nope!
Most Forum members see that there is a method to your madness!
You love to ruin excellent threads by flaming them!
They will be on the lookout with their cans of


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> No it's not actually, its how to calculate your expenses. So how about you stay on topic and answer the question. Because lets say we take the word depreciation off the table and you look at consumption only. What do you have when the car is too old to do Uber. What you are left with is No more Uber or a car that you need to sell. What is it you think your end game looks like?
> 
> That's what's missing here from you. What is your end game?


but we arent talkign about expenses
you too are doing what everybody else is doing: mentioning EVERYTHING except simply telling me how depreciation affects me financially if i dont sell the car
I dont want to hear about any other jargon, just answer that question
how can you not see you are avoiding my question by mention consuming and maintenance and gas and all that crap? smh

my end game is to get an answer to the above question
nobody wants to admit im right, so they start talking about other stuff
like you, we arent talking about no longer being able to uber, or an end game. I'm simply talking about that one question I keep repeating
including "answering correctly" by using selling the car in the answer, when clearly I said im not selling the car
smh


----------



## Actionjax

Wow this got messy in a hurry. Someone should just go in and delete half of it. What a waste of a good post.


----------



## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> I have bought hundreds of $40 tanks of gas over the years. I've never sold one of them, and never plan to. So it costs me nothing in gas to Uber.


another horrible analogy
I didnt buy my car to UBer, however I uber with it
you clearly said you put several $40 tanks of gas in your car to Uber. So unless you're blind, how can you not see that has a direct connection to Uber?
however if i never sell my car,how does depreciation affect me financially if I paid $30,000 for my car? give me a monetary amount answer then, since depreciation "costs me something" to do Uber??????????????


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> Wow this got messy in a hurry. Someone should just go in and delete half of it. What a waste of a good post.


this is what happens when people read one simple question, and respond to it with 14 different things, that have NOTHING to do with the question


----------



## Uberdawg

Actionjax said:


> Wow this got messy in a hurry. Someone should just go in and delete half of it. What a waste of a good post.


No doubt. His question has been answered 100 times, in 100 different ways and because he chooses not to understand (or is too stupid to) we have not answered his question.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uberdawg said:


> No doubt. His question has been answered 100 times, in 100 different ways and because he chooses not to understand (or is too stupid to) we have not answered his question.


nope, but its was answered by 100 diff things that had nothing to do with my question

as of this post, nobody has YET to tell me how im affected financially by not selling the car.FACT

the closest thing was a fluke scenario of using my car for a loan lol? who does that? Either way, no direct money (cash) is gained or loss from depreciation.Meaning no money was taken or entered into my bank account due to deprecation.Of course if I sell the car my bank account gets more money....

but if you want to call people stupid, then you're talking about the people who cant stay on topic by answering my question with totally irrelevant stuff. like mentioning selling the car in their answer, when I clearly stated i was not selling the car.....


----------



## marketmark

Bart McCoy said:


> but we arent talkign about expenses
> you too are doing what everybody else is doing: mentioning EVERYTHING except simply telling me how depreciation affects me financially if i dont sell the car
> I dont want to hear about any other jargon, just answer that question
> how can you not see you are avoiding my question by mention consuming and maintenance and gas and all that crap? smh


Depreciation affects you financially even if you don't sell the car. <--- Note the period.
Water is wet.
1+1=2


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> but we arent talkign about expenses
> you too are doing what everybody else is doing: mentioning EVERYTHING except simply telling me how depreciation affects me financially if i dont sell the car
> I dont want to hear about any other jargon, just answer that question
> how can you not see you are avoiding my question by mention consuming and maintenance and gas and all that crap? smh
> 
> my end game is to get an answer to the above question
> nobody wants to admit im right, so they start talking about other stuff
> like you, we arent talking about no longer being able to uber, or an end game. I'm simply talking about that one question I keep repeating
> including "answering correctly" by using selling the car in the answer, when clearly I said im not selling the car
> smh


Ok your right depreciation does not effect you unless you sell the car. And you are right. That's not me being a prick I am serious. I got your back on this one.

Since we don't know what Bart's end game is Depreciation is not a factor. He just expects to keep his asset till it's buried. And he is right...it shouldn't factor in the equation.

But his life expectancy doing Uber may not be as long as he may think. At that point he will have over consumed the asset.


----------



## Bart McCoy

marketmark said:


> Depreciation affects you financially even if you don't sell the car. <--- Note the period.
> Water is wet.
> 1+1=2


just great
a nice super correct answer, with no explanation


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> Ok your right depreciation does not effect you unless you sell the car. And you are right. .


so wtf, why didnt you just say that 30 posts ago? instead of trolling me?
all i wanted to do was get people to admit that, and after 200 post, you finally admit it
i mean how hard is it for people to accept that I was right?
you do know this topic would have been much shorter if you had said that FIRST, and not 32 troll replies later right?
smh


----------



## troubleinrivercity

An unrealized loss is still a loss, just not yet a realized one.

Anyway, people choose different types of accounting depending on their sympathies, prejudices, and goals. If one’s goal is to keep driving UberX, they’re going to be more sympathetic to a more liberal accounting that rolls Uber costs in with some other stuff and dilutes them to look less harsh. But when considered on their own, they are unworkable.


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> so wtf, why didnt you just say that 30 posts ago? instead of trolling me?
> all i wanted to do was get people to admit that, and after 200 post, you finally admit it
> i mean how hard is it for people to accept that I was right?
> smh


Ok so you are right...so again what's the end game with the car. What's the plan?


----------



## chi1cabby

I, A Forum Member, pledges to
*Not Feed The Troll *
in this or future threads!


----------



## Bart McCoy

troubleinrivercity said:


> An unrealized loss is still a loss, just not yet a realized one.


yeah, just like my stock market example...........

BUT...i dont deal with realization, i deal with reality.
And unless you sold your stock, you didnt lose in reality.
And unless you sell your car....well...you know the rest lol


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> another horrible analogy
> I didnt buy my car to UBer, however I uber with it
> you clearly said you put several $40 tanks of gas in your car to Uber. So unless you're blind, how can you not see that has a direct connection to Uber?
> however if i never sell my car,how does depreciation affect me financially if I paid $30,000 for my car? give me a monetary amount answer then, since depreciation "costs me something" to do Uber??????????????


Tanks of gas cost $30 to $40 and last 300 to 400 miles... yet you see gas costs as a cost of Ubering.

If cars cost $30 to $40 and last 300 to 400 miles, would you see car costs as a cost of Ubering? If so, what difference does it make if cars costs thousands of dollars and last thousands of miles?


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> Ok so you are right...so again what's the end game with the car. What's the plan?


no end
yall took a simple point i tried to make and run with it
one day im actually going to sell my car..........
but that has nothing to do with financial depreciation when you dont sell it
smh


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> yeah, just like my stock market example...........
> 
> BUT...i dont deal with realization, i deal with reality.
> And unless you sold your stock, you didnt lose in reality.
> And unless you sell your car....well...you know the rest lol


So to your stock market analogy if the company goes bankrupt to $0 and you don't sell did you loose money? Because somewhere along the line your car will ultimately go bankrupt to $0


----------



## marketmark

Bart McCoy said:


> just great
> a nice super correct answer, with no explanation


Some things don't really require an explanation.


----------



## MikeB

He is crazy.
Please everyone who thinks that he is NOT right hit "Like" this post, so this dumbo sees how "right" he is and high-fives the wall of his apartment.


----------



## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> Tanks of gas cost $30 to $40 and last 300 to 400 miles... yet you see gas costs as a cost of Ubering.
> 
> If cars cost $30 to $40 and last 300 to 400 miles, would you see car costs as a cost of Ubering? If so, what difference does it make if cars costs thousands of dollars and last thousands of miles?


i dont understand
whats your point? that gas is an expense? well lol I agree
doesnt look like it has anything to do with financial depreciation without selling a car though


----------



## Fauxknight

I just came here to say that OH min wage is actually $7.95 atm, going up to $8.10 later this year.

I regret reading through all that nonexistent depreciation nonsense before I posted this minor correction.


----------



## Bart McCoy

MikeB said:


> He is crazy.
> Please everyone who thinks that he is NOT right hit "Like" this post, so this dumbo sees how "right" he is and high-fives the wall of his apartment.


no because those will be fictitious un-earned likes, based off my popularity


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> no end
> yall took a simple point i tried to make and run with it
> one day im actually going to sell my car..........
> but that has nothing to do with financial depreciation when you dont sell it
> smh


So we are all working with real situational and you are hung up on the particulars trying to correct us all. Yep big waste of time. If you need validation of being right this is not the place to do it.

So you say you are going to sell your car someday. But you felt the need to try and call everyone else when we all knew what you were going to do anyways.

No offence but that is being a dick. Right or wrong.


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> i dont understand
> whats your point? that gas is an expense? well lol I agree
> doesnt look like it has anything to do with financial depreciation without selling a car though


If cars cost $30 to $40 and last 300 to 400 miles, would you include car costs as a cost of Ubering?


----------



## ElectroFuzz

*Cost per mile* (happens to be $0.42 for my 6 year old Camry)
This is how much it cost me to drive every mile.
This includes gas, oil changes, insurance, tires, registration, car wash, repairs (and everything else related to driving)
and most importantly depreciation.
So gas is spent immediately (about $0.12 per mile at the current gas prices)
the rest $0.30 suppose to go into your savings fund to pay for all the future expenses
you will have (tires, repairs and so on) including savings for the day you will need to replace the car.
You suppose to save enough money so when time comes you will have the cash on hand to purchase
 the same level of car as when you started out with.
This money is not profit, it's your operating cost.
If you do not save this money you will have to take a car loan in the future.
In other words you "depreciated your assets" and you do not have the funds to offset it (aka going into debt)

It doesn't mater if you sell the car or not, it's about maintaining the asset level you started with.
Eventually your car will die or it will be deactivated due to age and at that point
you suppose to have enough money in your "depreciation fund" to purchase the
same level of car as when you started with.


----------



## UberHammer

Fauxknight said:


> I just came here to say that OH min wage is actually $7.95 atm, going up to $8.10 later this year.
> 
> I regret reading through all that nonexistent depreciation nonsense before I posted this minor correction.


"Employers" who gross under $297,000.00 shall pay their employees no less than the current federal minimum wage rate.

Unless the Uber driver is employed by a company making more than $297K, the federal $7.25 is used.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> So we are all working with real situational and you are hung up on the particulars trying to correct us all. Yep big waste of time. If you need validation of being right this is not the place to do it.
> 
> So you say you are going to sell your car someday. But you felt the need to try and call everyone else when we all knew what you were going to do anyways.
> 
> No offence but that is being a dick. Right or wrong.


you had no clue what im going to do with my vehicle
just like you believe im selling my car
i'm not

but it doesnt matter what i do with my car,the point remains that if anybody other than me did not sell their car,how it would affect them financially
only you will assume everybody thats Ubering will sell their car
leave me and my vehicle out the question

the point relates to ANYONE that doesnt sell their car


----------



## Bart McCoy

ElectroFuzz said:


> *Cost per mile* (happens to be $0.42 for my 6 year old Camry)
> This is how much it cost me to drive every mile.
> This includes gas, oil changes, insurance, tires, registration, car wash, repairs (and everything else related to driving)
> and most importantly depreciation.
> So gas is spent immediately (about $0.12 per mile at the current gas prices)
> the rest $0.30 suppose to go into your savings fund to pay for all the future expenses
> you will have (tires, repairs and so on) including savings for the day you will need to replace the car.
> You suppose to save enough money so when time comes you will have the cash on hand to purchase
> the same level of car as when you started out with.
> This money is not profit, it's your operating cost.
> If you do not save this money you will have to take a car loan in the future.
> In other words you "depreciated your assets" and you do not have the funds to offset it (aka going into debt)
> 
> It doesn't mater if you sell the car or not, it's about maintaining the asset level you started with.
> Eventually your car will die or it will be deactivated due to age and at that point
> you suppose to have enough money in your "depreciation fund" to purchase the
> same level of car as when you started with.


oh this sounds good, but cleary this is OPTIONAL
what law says I have to maintain the asset level I started with? smh
if i want to buy a car and do nothing with it, so be it
financial depreciation only because a reality IF you sell the car.
yall just going to have to deal with that
anything other than that is simply knowing how much your vehicle is worth after said miles, just for kicks


----------



## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> If cars cost $30 to $40 and last 300 to 400 miles, would you include car costs as a cost of Ubering?


I'm not a moron
I know what depreciation is
and OF COURSE GAS COST IS A PART OF UBERING

stop filling up the board with silly questions


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> you had no clue what im going to do with my vehicle
> just like you believe im selling my car
> i'm not
> 
> but it doesnt matter what i do with my car,the point remains that if anybody other than me did not sell their car,how it would affect them financially
> only you will assume everybody thats Ubering will sell their car


No you live in fantasy land where cars live with Unicorns and they last forever and no one sells them.

Come live in the real world. Not the one just made up in your head. That's what Uber does.


----------



## MikeB

Bart McCoy said:


> no because those will be fictitious un-earned likes, based off my popularity


You like your popularity?
Is your popularity based on your trollish personality?
When everyone disagrees with the opinions you've stated do you consider it a sign of popularity?
Are you taking any medications?
Have you ever consider visiting a psychiatrist?


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> I'm not a moron
> I know what depreciation is
> and OF COURSE GAS COST IS A PART OF UBERING
> 
> stop filling up the board with silly questions


Answer the question!!!!!

If a car cost the same as a tank of gas, and lasted just as many miles as a tank of gas, would you include car costs as a cost of Ubering? YES OR NO?!?!?!?


----------



## troubleinrivercity

People are going to keep driving in their personal lives, since driving lets you defer per-mile costs, which are paid upfront and appear surprisingly high when you get on a commuter train (whose managing agency knows the per-mile cost of running a train down to four significant figures). Same logic for driving Uber. Most car costs are deferred.


----------



## Actionjax

Yep I'm done with this thread...a waste of time feeding into this nonsense. I think I just depreciated from being here.


----------



## MikeB

Bart McCoy said:


> I'm not a moron


You wanna bet?


----------



## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> Answer the question!!!!!
> 
> If a car cost the same as a tank of gas, and lasted just as many miles as a tank of gas, would you include car costs as a cost of Ubering? YES OR NO?!?!?!?


are you slow? I answered the question.if you can read english i said of course its an expense for Ubering, smh

now this question here, is so silly, i dont understand it. a car lasting 300miles?
so again, i will try to answer it,but its such an awkward question
but before I answer it, the question should only be answered, IF you bought the car for Ubering, AND you had no intention of selling it

that's like saying I bought a portable TV to watch in diff parts of the house, but I should include it as an expense to uBer...... when clearly I bought the TV before Uber came into play, the same as buying a car months before you start Ubering,which is my case


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> Yep I'm done with this thread...a waste of time feeding into this nonsense. I think I just depreciated from being here.


you're just mad because i got you to admit after 40 replies from you,that in the end, I was RIGHT. deal with it.

plus, you not done. I bet you'll reply after this, even though you're supposedly done with the thread



MikeB said:


> You wanna bet?


bet it


----------



## chi1cabby

MikeB said:


> He is crazy.
> Please everyone who thinks that he is NOT right hit "Like" this post, so this dumbo sees how "right" he is and high-fives the wall of his apartment.





Bart McCoy said:


> no because those will be fictitious un-earned likes, based off *my popularity*


*Your popularity* is another figment of your imagination!


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> are you slow? I answered the question.if you can read english i said of course its an expense for Ubering, smh
> 
> now this question here, is so silly, i dont understand it. a car lasting 200miles?
> so again, i will try to answer it,but its such an awkward question
> but before I answer it, the question should only be answered, IF you bought the car for Ubering, AND you had no intention of selling it
> 
> that's like saying I bought a portable TV to watch in diff parts of the house, but I should include it as an expense to uBer...... when clearly I bought the TV before Uber came into play, the same as buying a car months before you start Ubering,which is my case


Ok, so if you accept that a car that costs $30 to $40 and lasts 300 to 400 miles is a cost of Ubering, then swap $30 to $40 with $30K to $40K, and swap 300 to 400 miles with 300K to 400K miles. Is it still a cost of Ubering? YES OR NO?!?!?


----------



## MikeB

Bart McCoy said:


> you're just mad because i got you to admit after 40 replies from you,that in the end, I was RIGHT. deal with it.
> 
> plus, you not done. I bet you'll reply after this, even though you're supposedly done with the thread
> 
> bet it


How much?


----------



## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> Ok, so if you accept that a car that costs $30 to $40 and lasts 300 to 400 miles is a cost of Ubering, then swap $30 to $40 with $30K to $40K, and swap 300 to 400 miles with 300K to 400K miles. Is it still a cost of Ubering? YES OR NO?!?!?


I never said that I accept a car that costs $30 to $40 and is a cost to uber. And I wont. But sure gas is. Because a car costing 40 bucks and only lasting a full tank is beyond silly to me.
gotta use a better example. And i told you to even asnwer that question i would have had to buy the car for uber, and I didnt. Try again

plain common sense says if you bought a car to Uber, like the dum santander leases, OF COURSE you would factor that in as a cost. What is your point? I once thought your posts were bright, now you're clearly making no sense with these basic questions like knowing that gas is an expense/cost to Uber


----------



## Bart McCoy

MikeB said:


> How much?


i refuse to feed the troll


----------



## Actionjax

I'm not here to be popular or to prove I'm right. I add what I feel I can help. I'm not paid to be here therefore you are getting what you paid for. A donation of my time.

You wasted my time Bart with your need to be right mentality. But the fact is you are more hung up on being right than helping others. So to that sir good luck with your Ubering and your car. Others will I am sure take the advice of the many and discount the only one who disagrees. You are not smarter than the collective. You are more looking for an argument.


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> I never said that I accept a car that costs $30 to $40 and is a cost to uber. And I wont. But sure gas is. Because a car costing 40 bucks and only lasting a full tank is beyond silly to me.
> gotta use a better example. And i told you to even asnwer that question i would have had to buy the car for uber, and I didnt. Try again


<sigh>

One last try.... lets go back to the beginning again....

If driving for Uber required a widget, and widgets cost $30 to $40 and lasted 300 to 400 miles, would you include the cost of widgets in the cost of Ubering?


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Rich Brunelle said:


> No, I have to disagree. By you using your lesser amount to calculate your earnings, you are saying that Uber can also do so. You might be at 0.32 where I am in reality closer to 0.55. That is our variable for our use, it is your blanket "give me" on a variable that might change over the period of a year. To be just in your calc, use the approved amount, unless you want Uber not to use the approved amount also.


Uber isn't using ANY amount so that's beside the point. The standard IRS deduction is for what your annual income you get TAXED on ends up. It's not in my mind your ACTUAL income unless your costs are exactly standard.

And not that it's much but any tips would be "free" income unless he's reporting them. I doubt if anyone doing uber is unless they're on a square reader and there's a record.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Right, the $.56 includes deferred "hidden" costs that most ignore. I think it is really universal for all over time. Some are just trying to "cheat death" by driving an old/cheap car, but it will catch up to you. Case in point, a buddy just got a $1200 repair bill on his older Blazer, wiped out his whole month of Uber revenue! Any proper analysis should show a LOSS. :-( Anything south of $1.50/mile and ur losing $, that simple. Every (former) Uber driver with a brain is on strike right now! (P.S., I have proven time after time that $.57/mile is not just "some number", it is completely real!)


How is it "universal"? If it were the cost if driving a hummer to uber would be the same as driving a prius. CLEARLY It would not be. Not in gas , not in depreciation and not in repairs.


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> this will be my last reply if you're going to ask continued silly question
> OF COURSE i would include that in the cost
> 
> BUT, and you know theres a but
> *would I be paying 30 to 40 for a widget if I didnt Uber?*
> Of course Uber requires a car. But Uber doesnt require that I sell that car.....
> now are you saying if I didnt Uber, I would never buy a car in life?
> 
> hopefully you understand now..............


To answer the bolded, yes, Uber allows independent contractors to use their personal widgets for Uber and anyone who qualifies to be an independent contractor would already own a widget for personal use. If they didn't, they would fail to meet the qualifications to be an IC for Uber. They don't have to buy and use a widget specifically for Uber. In fact, Uber expects that they would buy and use the widget for both personal and Uber use. Given this, is the cost of widgets still a cost of Ubering?


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Bart McCoy said:


> well if you are not selling your car, no, you shouldnt factor in depreciation. especially not when you add "dead" miles


You are keeping your car til the day you die?


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> um, the bolded was this:
> "*would I be paying 30 to 40 for a widget if I didnt Uber?"*
> 
> *Now if i didnt Uber,theres no reasonable expectation for me to have a widget now is there? If im not ubering,then i can safely not have one correct? Right. So I cant answer your question now*


Of course theres a reasonable expectation for you to have a widget. Because I can replace the word "widget" everywhere that I've used it with the word "gas". If you didn't Uber, there's a reasonable expectation for you to have gas, right? I can also replace the word "widget" everywhere that I've used it with the word "tires". If you didn't Uber there's a reasonable expectation for you to have tires, right? I can also replace the word "widget" everywhere that I've used it with the word "car". If you didn't Uber there's a reasonable expectation for you to have a car, right?


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> Sure you can replace it with gas. Now i bought a car, and it uses a lot of gas. But even though I dont Uber,not signed up for Uber, I should still charge it to Uber? lol
> goodbye man


If you don't Uber, I don't care who you charge it to. But if you DO use it to Uber, then it IS a cost of Ubering.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

UberHammer said:


> If you bought a car for $1,000 and drove it until it died, the depreciation per mile you experienced is $1,000 divided by the number of miles you drove.
> 
> You're are essentially selling it to the junk yard for $0. (although some actually do pay you for it)


If you drive it until it dies you would probably have to pay to get it towed to the junkyard though....

With brings up a question: is AAA membership or similar tax deductible? I have free road service with my car for 2 years but have had AAA for years because we've had many older cars in our household and its simply convenient for my older mom and so on if there's an issue (not really cost effective unless you break down a lot but it's a peace of mind issue for me).


----------



## UberHammer

Fuzzyelvis said:


> If you drive it until it dies you would probably have to pay to get it towed to the junkyard though....
> 
> With brings up a question: is AAA membership or similar tax deductible? I have free road service with my car for 2 years but have had AAA for years because we've had many older cars in our household and its simply convenient for my older mom and so on if there's an issue (not really cost effective unless you break down a lot but it's a peace of mind issue for me).


It is considered insurance, so yes. But if you take the standard mileage deduction, insurance is considered part of that, so you can't deduct both.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

UberHammer said:


> Yes, as cars get older their maintenance costs increase. The depreciation per mile however is far less. A car experiences around 50% of a its depreciation around the 50,000 mile mark. The other 50% of the depreciation occurs over the next 150,000 miles (some even longer). So yes, higher maintenance costs, but lower depreciation. If the owner pays cash, it's essentially a wash. Buying new or used is going to provide a similar cost per mile to the owner. But if the owner has to finance the new car, because the price is more expensive, then the financing raises the cost per mile, making the used car cost less per mile.
> 
> As for quality affecting ratings, we agree. Very few people are going to drive new cars for Uber because most new cars are financed. Drivers will opt for beaters because they can pay cash for them. If they could pay cash for a new car, it would cost relatively the same per mile, unless we're talking about a real peice of shit used car.


I think there's another thing to consider: if you uber your chances of having a wreck and totalling your car is greater than if you were driving those same miles but not ubering. Especially if you're out getting the drunks home. If you do total the car you will experience more depreciation than if you had driven it onto the ground. The newer the car the more this is true. Because at that point you're "selling" your car to the insurance company sooner than you otherwise would have.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

UberHammer said:


> It is considered insurance, so yes. But if you take the standard mileage deduction, insurance is considered part of that, so you can't deduct both.


Ok. Was never planning on deducting it as its not an extra business expense for me. Mostly for mom who is definitely NOT ubering in her 1997 Chevy truck!


----------



## UberHammer

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Ok. Was never planning on deducting it as its not an extra business expense for me. Mostly for mom who is definitely NOT ubering in her 1997 Chevy truck!


Oh, well it's not deductible as a personal expense, only a business one.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> No, we're both right, I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle. But, even though u say car not "dead" at 100k, its not worth much either, so my numbers still work. Yes, I drive a new fancy standard gas mileage car. Cant tell you how many pax ***** about the god dam Prius & say they shouldnt be allowed. It doesnt really matter, you couldnt make a real profit driving a bike at these rates! :-(


The car may not be "dead" but if it's sold for very little because you no longer can or want to drive it then it's "dead" or close to it depreciation wise.

It also depends how many miles you uber and where you start out mileage wise. If you have a car that will be too old to uber next year then figure everything for thst one year. Assuming uber diesnt move the goal posts of course....


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Bart McCoy said:


> you are doing nothing but DEFINING what depreciation is
> we already know what it is
> my question is, how does depreciation affect me financially if i never sell the car?
> 
> you said "sell the car after 100,000". scrap that,because i clearly sad not selling
> you said bought a house today. its only worth money FINANCAILLY to me, if i sell it
> if I bought a hosue for $20,000 20 years ago, and today its worth $2million. Do i have 2 million dollars??? NO. I only have 2 mil if I SELL it!!!!!!!!
> hopefully you guys understand now, smh


But it will be junk faster the more miles you put on it and will die in let's say 5 years instead of 10. So at that point you will need another car. Financially that WILL cost you. Also you CAN NOT use it to uber forever as it will get too old and you wwill need another car. That's assuming ubering us still around at that point.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Bart McCoy said:


> oh yeah? whats this: https://www.youcallwehaul.com/


Depends on where you are. Try it from the dirt road my mom lives on in the middle of the country and see how well it works.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Bart McCoy said:


> thats your best?
> when i bought the car, i had no intent to use it for any loan
> if i wanted a loan, i would be trying to get the loan using another asset. i already accepted 30,000 as a loss for the car the day I bought it,becuase i knew I wasnt going to sell


What about if it's totalled tomorrow?


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Bart McCoy said:


> no end
> yall took a simple point i tried to make and run with it
> one day im actually going to sell my car..........
> but that has nothing to do with financial depreciation when you dont sell it
> smh


Wait. I thought you were NEVER going to sell your car.

Confused now....


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Bart McCoy said:


> not necessarly to the day I die, but the day the car dies, YES. Then i'll trash it. At that point I will be trashing 30 grand,the purchase price. however I knew i was going to trash 30grand 30 years ago. Because when I bought it I had no intention to sell.............


I'm pretty sure if you uber it won't last 30 years. But dream on...


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Bart McCoy said:


> then just like when i bought the the car for for $30,000, and knew i lost $30,000 before i drove off the lot....
> if i totalled it tomorrow, I lost what I already knew: $30,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ok I'm done. I give up. Logic has no place here...


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Bart McCoy said:


> cut it out, you think there's only ONE business in america that will come get junk cars for me?
> smh


Well my mom's neighbor hasn't found one yet that will haul old vehicles off his land for free. It's not worth anyone's tome and effort for the junk value apparently.


----------



## UberHammer

I'd like to talk about the declining quality of Colombian coffee in the past fews years. I figure this thread is as good as any to do it in. Thoughts?


----------



## MikeB

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Ok I'm done. I give up. Logic has no place here...


Obviously with this uber-troll bart mccoy.
This dude is mentally sick. He spent all day here today arguing with the rest of people mute point.
He doesn't have a job, he isn't even ubering, just sits here and bangs his chest: "I'm right!". Then he high fives the walls of his miserable shit hole.
He can't be working. Sick ******.


----------



## Simon

Actionjax said:


> I'm not here to be popular or to prove I'm right. I add what I feel I can help. I'm not paid to be here therefore you are getting what you paid for. A donation of my time.
> 
> You wasted my time Bart with your need to be right mentality. But the fact is you are more hung up on being right than helping others. So to that sir good luck with your Ubering and your car. Others will I am sure take the advice of the many and discount the only one who disagrees. You are not smarter than the collective. You are more looking for an argument.


Just stop replying to him... he is not respected here so what's the point. Nobody listens to his ramblings.


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> no
> this thread is about how depreciation affects you financially if you dont sell the car in question


I hate you.


----------



## Rich Brunelle

The problem with this topic is to many of us it seems like Uber Logic. I already would have a car payment whether I worked for Uber or not, so the car payment should not be considered an expense when doing Uber. And, that my friends is "horse shit." Just because I own a car and have to make payments on it does not mean that it does not qualify as an expense when using my car for work. That is the reason the 0.56 is the standard deduction for mileage driven performing the work. The IRS has gone out of it's way to reach the figures they allow for a deduction. They have researched the data up, down, right, and left far better than we will ever know and come up with this amount for a reason. This is not a Uber calculation for you to Travis Kalanick to whatever amount of your choosing. Doing the Travis Kalanick math means that you calculate whatever figure you believe you car costs you per mile and only charge for things that you did not use before working with Uber. I had a cell phone before Uber so I cannot claim it, I had a car payment, Insurance payment, so nothing that is legal is acceptable for you to use as a real deductible amount.

If I had a car before Uber and a car payment attached to it, and would still have it regardless my working with Uber is crap! I am an Independent Contractor. As such I am a small business. My car which now is 90% Uber gets the applicable deductions now because I am a small business and using my car for that purpose. Uber tries to tell you that you are making more because your car does not cost you that much. Maybe today it doesn't, but tomorrow it may cost you 2, 3, or 5 times as much. I just had to put a window in my car at dealership prices the window costs $600.00. Now if your 0.32 calculation provides for that kind of add on without increase of that 0.32, more power to you. While your suggestion that such was the best you could earn scenario is a good "If all goes well" situation and probably one of the best posts presented on this site, it fails a reality test. Is it reasonable to let it appear as though you are earning more money by shorting applicable taxation standards?

Uber hopes you will do just that so Uber can say you are making real money, that you really aren't. The likelihood that any of us will actually have lower costs than the 0.56 allowed, is because we fail to include applicable expenses as we should. If you want to be true to yourself, modify your figures to represent lawful taxation and then see how well you turn out. Quit thinking that you are an individual, you aren't. You are a small business, act like one. Kalanick has us working for pennies, barely able to make expenses and of those that can make expenses, they cannot pay themselves a legal minimum wage.

You are not just supposed to make expenses and a meager scrap of a wage. You are supposed to meet expenses, pay your car, pay your driver, and pay your business. If you cannot do each of those then you are not being paid enough and you are operating at a loss regardless what you believe the costs of your car per mile. Quit using Uber Logic, use your Business Logic and if you are going to argue figures, argue the figures that truly benefit you.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

This is how I feel. (I'm the duck). Anyone else?


----------



## UberHammer

Rich Brunelle said:


> Doing the Travis Kalanick math means that you calculate whatever figure you believe you car costs you per mile and only charge for things that you did not use before working with Uber.


Actually, Kalanick's math is that the car cost ZERO to Uber with. He honestly believes it's just costing the Uber driver some more gas and few more frequent oil changes and services. The cost of the car is completely absent from his math.

You can see this in his public speeches, where he says the sharing economy is using things that are just out there sitting idle and not being utilized. "Sharing economy" apps like Uber put these idle resources to good use. And because they already exist, their existence in the sharing economy costs nothing. It costs nothing to make something exist that already exists. It will consume gas faster and need oil changes quicker, but that's it. Isn't that wonderful?

That is the math that is being used to determine the rates as they drop, drop more, continue to drop, and drop even more this spring. It's UberAccounting.


----------



## Rich Brunelle

Bart McCoy said:


> wait
> so now you are saying the IRS 57 cents allowed IS EVERYONE's cost of maintaining a car?
> another expert
> smh


Yes Bart! I as a small business am allowed to claim my car costs 0.57 per mile to operate. I did not "Travis Kalanick" that figure. The IRS gave me that figure. And, unless your degree in business or taxation is superior to their policy, I think in all fairness to myself and fellow drivers, I will recognize the IRS figures to prevail. As I said, you might be only at a cost of 0.32 today, but tomorrow you may not be. Factor in a few flat tires, a torn seat, a scratched paint job, and anything else that could increase your 0.32, and your 0.32 is no longer even a meaningful consideration. Uber Logic sucks, quit thinking that way. When did you crawl in bed with Travis, or are you just trolling for entertainment?


----------



## Rich Brunelle

Bart McCoy said:


> hahahah, as much as people hate me on here, everyone will agree with me that you're wrong
> cant believe you sat up here and said your expenses are 57.5 cents a mile, BECAUSE THE IRS SAID SO!!
> when you factor in your actual cost per mile, the IRS has NOTHING to do with that!!!


The IRS figure is the only applicable figure you can use until the end of the year when you can tally the exact figure by adding your expenses for the entire year. Using a figure of less is ridiculous as the expenses will change throughout the year based on actual expenditures. THE IRS FIGURE IS THE ONLY SET FIGURE YOU CAN USE UNLESS YOU CAN GUARANTEE YOUR LOWER FIGURE WILL NOT INCREASE ANY TIME DURING THE YEAR!


----------



## Rich Brunelle

Bart, at what point can you determine how much your car costs for the year? At the end of the year. Not the beginning, not the middle, but the end. Until then, yes the IRS who has performed the necessary research, who has made a lawful determination, who has decided that the figure they have provided is the one we can use on our taxes can tell us how much our cars cost to operate regardless of any other factors. If you want to say your car cost less than mine, show me at the end of the year after you compile all your relevant receipts and do your math. Until that time, your car costs the same as mine, which is the figure provided by the IRS.


----------



## Actionjax

Rich Brunelle said:


> Yes Bart! I as a small business am allowed to claim my car costs 0.57 per mile to operate. I did not "Travis Kalanick" that figure. The IRS gave me that figure. And, unless your degree in business or taxation is superior to their policy, I think in all fairness to myself and fellow drivers, I will recognize the IRS figures to prevail. As I said, you might be only at a cost of 0.32 today, but tomorrow you may not be. Factor in a few flat tires, a torn seat, a scratched paint job, and anything else that could increase your 0.32, and your 0.32 is no longer even a meaningful consideration. Uber Logic sucks, quit thinking that way. When did you crawl in bed with Travis, or are you just trolling for entertainment?


I'm sorry your logic is not cost on operation. We have already established that. You don't drive a Hummer or a Mac Truck for Uber. So again that's not actual cost. At least not for everyone. I can prove that math every time. Can you prove it's costing you 57 cents per mile. Show it.


----------



## UberHammer

Rich Brunelle said:


> The IRS figure is the only applicable figure you can use until the end of the year when you can tally the exact figure by adding your expenses for the entire year.


This isn't true. Instead of using the standard mileage deduction I could itemize all my expenses, and produce a deduction from my Uber income that divided by the miles I drove would be somewhere around $0.32 per mile . Not only is it an applicable figure, it's the correct figure where as $0.56 is not correct.



> Using a figure of less is ridiculous as the expenses will change throughout the year based on actual expenditures.


You are correct that itemizing the expenses will produce varying amounts as years progress, but that doesn't make doing so ridiculous. It's perfectly acceptable.

Using a figure of less is ridiculous ONLY because you would end up paying more in taxes.



> THE IRS FIGURE IS THE ONLY SET FIGURE YOU CAN USE UNLESS YOU CAN GUARANTEE YOUR LOWER FIGURE WILL NOT INCREASE ANY TIME DURING THE YEAR!


Given one has the option to itemize, it is NOT the only figure you can use. It's just the only standard deduction. Itemized figures can be less and they can be more. If itemizing is more, you pay less in taxes by itemizing instead of the standard deduction.

Again, everyone's costs are different. The IRS has not come up with math that makes everyone's costs exactly the same per mile.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Rich Brunelle said:


> The IRS figure is the only applicable figure you can use until the end of the year when you can tally the exact figure by adding your expenses for the entire year. Using a figure of less is ridiculous as the expenses will change throughout the year based on actual expenditures. THE IRS FIGURE IS THE ONLY SET FIGURE YOU CAN USE UNLESS YOU CAN GUARANTEE YOUR LOWER FIGURE WILL NOT INCREASE ANY TIME DURING THE YEAR!


so if you drive a Hummer you should assume that your costs are 57 cents a mile and drive for uber is it makes sense to drive at that rate and just wait till the end of the year to see if you're right


Rich Brunelle said:


> The problem with this topic is to many of us it seems like Uber Logic. I already would have a car payment whether I worked for Uber or not, so the car payment should not be considered an expense when doing Uber. And, that my friends is "horse shit." Just because I own a car and have to make payments on it does not mean that it does not qualify as an expense when using my car for work. That is the reason the 0.56 is the standard deduction for mileage driven performing the work. The IRS has gone out of it's way to reach the figures they allow for a deduction. They have researched the data up, down, right, and left far better than we will ever know and come up with this amount for a reason. This is not a Uber calculation for you to Travis Kalanick to whatever amount of your choosing. Doing the Travis Kalanick math means that you calculate whatever figure you believe you car costs you per mile and only charge for things that you did not use before working with Uber. I had a cell phone before Uber so I cannot claim it, I had a car payment, Insurance payment, so nothing that is legal is acceptable for you to use as a real deductible amount.
> 
> If I had a car before Uber and a car payment attached to it, and would still have it regardless my working with Uber is crap! I am an Independent Contractor. As such I am a small business. My car which now is 90% Uber gets the applicable deductions now because I am a small business and using my car for that purpose. Uber tries to tell you that you are making more because your car does not cost you that much. Maybe today it doesn't, but tomorrow it may cost you 2, 3, or 5 times as much. I just had to put a window in my car at dealership prices the window costs $600.00. Now if your 0.32 calculation provides for that kind of add on without increase of that 0.32, more power to you. While your suggestion that such was the best you could earn scenario is a good "If all goes well" situation and probably one of the best posts presented on this site, it fails a reality test. Is it reasonable to let it appear as though you are earning more money by shorting applicable taxation standards?
> 
> Uber hopes you will do just that so Uber can say you are making real money, that you really aren't. The likelihood that any of us will actually have lower costs than the 0.56 allowed, is because we fail to include applicable expenses as we should. If you want to be true to yourself, modify your figures to represent lawful taxation and then see how well you turn out. Quit thinking that you are an individual, you aren't. You are a small business, act like one. Kalanick has us working for pennies, barely able to make expenses and of those that can make expenses, they cannot pay themselves a legal minimum wage.
> 
> You are not just supposed to make expenses and a meager scrap of a wage. You are supposed to meet expenses, pay your car, pay your driver, and pay your business. If you cannot do each of those then you are not being paid enough and you are operating at a loss regardless what you believe the costs of your car per mile. Quit using Uber Logic, use your Business Logic and if you are going to argue figures, argue the figures that truly benefit you.


anyone arguing that you have to use the IRS figure is saying that it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive the expenses all the same so by your logic if it makes sense to me to drive a Priusat 57 cents a mile deduction then it also makes sense to drive a Hummer unfortunately I don't think I could drive a Hummer and make money doing this even with only working the surges


----------



## Actionjax

UberHammer said:


> This isn't true. Instead of using the standard mileage deduction I could itemize all my expenses, and produce a deduction from my Uber income that divided by the miles I drove would be somewhere around $0.32 per mile . Not only is it an applicable figure, it's the correct figure where as $0.56 is not correct.
> 
> You are correct that itemizing the expenses will produce varying amounts as years progress, but that doesn't make doing so ridiculous. It's perfectly acceptable.
> 
> Using a figure of less is ridiculous ONLY because you would end up paying more in taxes.
> 
> Given one has the option to itemize, it is NOT the only figure you can use. It's just the only standard deduction. Itemized figures can be less and they can be more. If itemizing is more, you pay less in taxes by itemizing instead of the standard deduction.
> 
> Again, everyone's costs are different. The IRS has not come up with math that makes everyone's costs exactly the same per mile.


What the ****....are we agreeing again.


----------



## Rich Brunelle

UberHammer said:


> This isn't true. Instead of using the standard mileage deduction I could itemize all my expenses, and produce a deduction from my Uber income that divided by the miles I drove would be somewhere around $0.32 per mile . Not only is it an applicable figure, it's the correct figure where as $0.56 is not correct.
> 
> You are correct that itemizing the expenses will produce varying amounts as years progress, but that doesn't make doing so ridiculous. It's perfectly acceptable.
> 
> Using a figure of less is ridiculous ONLY because you would end up paying more in taxes.
> 
> Given one has the option to itemize, it is NOT the only figure you can use. It's just the only standard deduction. Itemized figures can be less and the can be more. If itemizing is more, you pay less in taxes by itemizing instead of the standard deduction.
> 
> Again, everyone's costs are different. The IRS has not come up with math that makes everyone's costs exactly the same per mile.


Not true Magoo! Until the end of the year, when you compile all your data to calculate your costs, you cannot find such figure based on a portion of the year as the IRS figure is developed for a period of one year. They are not saying it cost 0.57 for one day of the year. They are saying that it costs an average of 0.57 per mile for the average total of expenses over the period of a year.


----------



## Bart McCoy

hahahah @Rich Brunelle , I told you so!! 
everybody proving you wrong


----------



## UberHammer

Actionjax said:


> What the ****....are we agreeing again.


Again it's math. Math is the universal agreement. Except to those who don't understand it.

I knew there were a lot of people who struggle with math, but this thread has me worried about the human race as a whole. Oh my!


----------



## Actionjax

Rich Brunelle said:


> Not true Magoo! Until the end of the year, when you compile all your data to calculate your costs, you cannot find such figure based on a portion of the year as the IRS figure is developed for a period of one year. They are not saying it cost 0.57 for one say of the year. They are saying that it costs an average of 0.57 per mile for the average total of expenses over the period of a year.


So can you show how you are paying that...or are we just going to take the IRS word for it. They know your costs?


----------



## Lidman

Looks like a tennis match. Now we at the fifth set tie-breaker.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Actionjax said:


> Just ran your numbers. Looks 100% on the money. That's 2 things we agree on.
> 
> What's minimum wage for your state?
> 
> I don't count the SRF in my calculations because it's a wash. But I believe you are doing it because Uber is loading the taxes on to you.


How is uber loading the taxes onto us for the SRF?


----------



## UberHammer

Rich Brunelle said:


> Not true Magoo! Until the end of the year, when you compile all your data to calculate your costs, you cannot find such figure based on a portion of the year as the IRS figure is developed for a period of one year. They are not saying it cost 0.57 for one day of the year. They are saying that it costs an average of 0.57 per mile for the average total of expenses over the period of a year.


I don't need to compile all my data at the end of the year, because unless tragedy struck, my costs are going to be nowhere near $0.56 per mile.

If I did add them up, then yes you are correct that I don't know it will be exactly $0.32. I can't know that until the all the cost are incurred. When all is said and done it could be $0.37, it could be $0.29, it could be $0.34, it could be $0.28, etc, etc.... but for it to be $0.56 or more, something major would have to happen to result in that cost.

The whole point of the IRS allowing a standard deduction, which they do in NUMEROUS places through out the tax code, is to keep a good percentage of the population from having to compile all their data at the end of the year. For these people, they have the option of just using the standard deduction, and moving on in the tax form. Some people use the standard deduction who could have saved money by itemizing, but were just to lazy to itemize (or lacked the receipts to prove it). This is why the standard deduction exists. It's simple. It's clean. Only those who have higher expenses benefit from digging in and itemizing. For the rest, it's a nice little bonus to expense more than it really cost us.


----------



## Rich Brunelle

Fuzzyelvis said:


> so if you drive a Hummer you should assume that your costs are 57 cents a mile and drive for uber is it makes sense to drive at that rate and just wait till the end of the year to see if you're right
> 
> anyone arguing that you have to use the IRS figure is saying that it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive the expenses all the same so by your logic if it makes sense to me to drive a Priusat 57 cents a mile deduction then it also makes sense to drive a Hummer unfortunately I don't think I could drive a Hummer and make money doing this even with only working the surges


No it would not make sense to drive a hummer and expect only a figure of 0.57 per mile. But, until the year end the only amount you can lawfully deduct would be 0.57. That does not mean that it does not cost more or that you should not be paid a higher cost for use. Would the hummer qualify for a different cost per mile. There are different figures based on the type of vehicle. A Tractor-Trailer rig does not use the 0.57 figure so why would a hummer. A standard sedan automobile gets a figure of 0.57 until year end when they calculate actual figures or keep using the IRS standard. So, are you going to claim the lesser amount of 0.32 or the standard of 0.57 on your taxes. Suddenly this topic is moot.


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> nope, but its was answered by 100 diff things that had nothing to do with my question
> 
> as of this post, nobody has YET to tell me how im affected financially by not selling the car.FACT
> 
> the closest thing was a fluke scenario of using my car for a loan lol? who does that? Either way, no direct money (cash) is gained or loss from depreciation.Meaning no money was taken or entered into my bank account due to deprecation.Of course if I sell the car my bank account gets more money....
> 
> but if you want to call people stupid, then you're talking about the people who cant stay on topic by answering my question with totally irrelevant stuff. like mentioning selling the car in their answer, when I clearly stated i was not selling the car.....


My final attempt. You bought your car and let's say it will last 250K miles. Normal driving that would last you at least 10-12 years. But now you Uber so you are putting an additional 24K miles in addition to your normal miles. Now you car has only lasted 5 or 6 years and costs more to repair than it's value so you stick it in your front yard. Now you have to buy a new car so you are buying a new car much earlier than you would have had to had you not driven for Uber. That is the depreciation Uber has caused. You have had to spend money before you would have had to. See how that works. It is not hard.

Now I am sure your comeback will be "but I am only going to replace my car at a million miles".


----------



## Rich Brunelle

Actionjax said:


> So can you show how you are paying that...or are we just going to take the IRS word for it. They know your costs?


It does not matter because I am either going to use the standard or an itemized higher figure. Unless you are going to use a lesser figure, this conversation is moot.


----------



## Simon

UberHammer said:


> I hate you.


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> so if you paid $1,000 5 years ago
> or if you paid $1,000 5 years from now
> whats the difference in the amount you paid no matter which year you bought it?
> NONE. either way you paid $1,000


Are your Uber passengers going to be watching that TV?..... turning it on... and off.... and on/off/on/off just to be dicks... changing the channel... over and over and over again.... turning down the volume.... turning it up... and up and up and up.... blowing the speakers out.... tinkering with the colors... the tint... the contrast.... spitting soda on the screen.... poking it with pens and other sharp objects... etc, etc....

If they are, then DON'T consider the cost of the TV as an Uber expense and at least you will be consistent.


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> heres the thing, and its actually a good answer:
> first there are a couple of assumptions:
> 1) that i am going to buy a new car to continue to Uber
> and 2) that i am even going to buy a car
> but for your question, lets assume 1 and 2
> but the bottom line is, and you might hate it:
> 
> I have to buy another car anyway.
> What difference does it make that I have to buy a car in 2017, instead of 2022?
> if i dont spend 30grand to buy a car in 2017, i still have to spend 30 grand(probably more because of inflation) in 2022 to get a car
> either way, i have to spend at least 30 grand to get the car I want (because i refused to sell my car rather i racked up 1 mil miles on it, or just 100 miles)
> depreciation may affect WHEN i buy it
> but not that i HAVE to buy it.
> 
> simple:
> say you bout a TV 5 years ago for $1,000
> then say you didnt buy a TV 5 years ago, but bought it now in 2015
> 
> so if you paid $1,000 5 years ago
> or if you paid $1,000 5 years from now
> whats the difference in the amount you paid no matter which year you bought it?
> NONE. either way you paid $1,000


Okay. I will no longer feed the troll. Have fun riding your bike because you didn't buy a new car just so you could say you were right in this thread. Just say your car will last a trillion miles so you don't have to buy a new one. Same thing.

You TV analogy is not worth an explanation of all the things wrong with it.

No wonder in 1100 posts you only have around 350 likes. I think your popularity is in your head and you brain is in your ass.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uberdawg said:


> No wonder in 1100 posts you only have around 350 likes. I think your popularity is in your head and you brain is in your ass.


its pretty bad when you judge yourself off how many likes you have on a discussion board filled with strangers
i dont let an Uber board define me
may god bless your soul though


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> i dont let an Uber board define me


Uber's driver ratings already have that covered.


----------



## chi1cabby

Bart McCoy said:


> its pretty bad when *you judge yourself off how many likes you have on a discussion board *filled with strangers
> i dont let an Uber board define me


*Boy you really Are Dense!*
Dearth of Likes means that other forum members find your posts to be GARBAGE.
It's Not How *you judge yourself*. It's how others are judging you!

And as you love to say
*Smh!*


----------



## Bart McCoy

chi1cabby said:


> *Boy you really Are Dense!*
> Dearth of Likes means that other forum members find your posts to be GARBAGE.
> It's Not How *you judge yourself*. It's how others are judging you!
> 
> And as you love to say
> *Smh!*


are you slow? obviously that means a person with i guess 5,000 likes in their profile is a great person, HENCE JUDGED OFF OF HOW MANY LIKES YOU HAVE ON A DISCUSSION BOARD
swear they need folks to pass a mental test before signing up


----------



## chi1cabby

Bart McCoy said:


> are you slow? obviously that means a person with i guess a 5,000 likes in their profile is a great person, HENCE JUDGED OFF OF HOW MANY LIKES YOU HAVE ON A DISCUSSION BOARD
> swear they need folks to pass a mental test before signing up


I can't make heads or tails of what he's saying...
Is there anyone here who can translate Gibberish to English?


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> swear they need folks to pass a mental test before signing up


*LIKE!*


----------



## Uberdawg

chi1cabby said:


> I can't make heads or tails of what he's saying...
> Is there anyone here who can translate Gibberish to English?


I think what he is saying is that he is right, everyone else is wrong. He don't need no likes from no message board to know that he don't make no sense. If you have 5,000 likes it just means stupid people like you. Good Luck with that.

The moron has his answer and he still must post shit. At least he is off of the "Uber don't cause no damn depreciation" mantra since he has been proven wrong. Even with his stupid logic he is wrong, at least now he knows it.


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> but this my last time accepting you guys calling me names
> gonna start snitching and reporting you
> you can hate me all you want, just keep it respectful
> you have been warned


I'm skeered now. Please don't report me Mister.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uberdawg said:


> I think what he is saying is that he is right, everyone else is wrong. He don't need no likes from no message board to know that he don't make no sense. If you have 5,000 likes it just means stupid people like you. Good Luck with that.
> 
> The moron has his answer and he still must post shit. At least he is off of the "Uber don't cause no damn depreciation" mantra since he has been proven wrong. Even with his stupid logic he is wrong, at least now he knows it.


nope
all that proves is that you cant read thoroughly nor comprehend plain english


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uberdawg said:


> I'm skeered now. Please don't report me Mister.


well just continue to do what you do, since you not worried
I bet you dont though


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> you do know that i joined a month after you, and that ratio wise, I have MORE likes than you right?
> smh
> people these days


Okay. Here goes. To prove you are Intellectually Challanged, exactly how is it you figure ratios? With this post I now have posted 439 times with 444 likes. You have posted 1200 times with 344 likes. And in your math you have a better like ratio than me? Hmmmm. Must be new math.

Yes, you are a serious poster.. And smart too!


----------



## chi1cabby

Bart McCoy said:


> well just continue to do what you do, since you not worried
> I bet you dont though


Bart, you forgot to say *smh* in your post!


----------



## Simon




----------



## UberHammer

14 pages later it's still only $7.68 an hour at best.


----------



## Bart McCoy

With broken math, yeah


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> With broken math, yeah


Please leave.


----------



## chi1cabby

He ain't gonna leave man!
Yours isn't the first thread this troll has flamed to death. That's what this A hole does!


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

[Q UOTE="Actionjax, post: 190547, member: 3022"]Miles are not the only way to make money. Minimum base fares and time also need to be counted as well. If I told you were getting a $5 base fare and $0.60 per mile with $0.30 per min. You would be making as many minimum fares you could get your hands on. Try and make it up in volume. Especially if every pick up was 2 min away.

The point is this is all subjective by the individual markets and individual real expenses per mile. You need to look at all the numbers and one size does not fit all.[/QUOTE]
absolutely true it also depends where you live and where you have to go to Uber. if you can sithome and game the guarantees you might be doing much better in the same market some someone who lives 20 miles away on doesn't have the option if you can separate home and game the guarantees you might be doing much better in the same market some someone who lives 20 miles away on doesn't have the option


Bart McCoy said:


> agreed
> but again, other then knowing the value of a car at any given point, how does depreciation affect me financially if i never sell,and never intended to sell it? Lets say at 500,000 miles the car is completely depreciated. Since the value is now $0, the $30,000 i spent on it is gone. BUT, i knew my $30,000 was gone the day I bought it. Yall understand now?
> 
> so no one has yet to tell me how i'm financially affected by depreciation if i NEVER sell the car
> folks are dancing around the subject, but cant tell me financially what ive lost due to depreciation!!!
> 
> If i buy a car for $30,000, and 22years later I run it into the ground,and its worth $0. How much money did I lose if i never wanted to sell the car?
> 
> simple question


I want to see this car that's going to be ubered in for 500,000 miles! That statement alone is ridiculous.


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Bart McCoy said:


> another horrible analogy
> I didnt buy my car to UBer, however I uber with it
> you clearly said you put several $40 tanks of gas in your car to Uber. So unless you're blind, how can you not see that has a direct connection to Uber?
> however if i never sell my car,how does depreciation affect me financially if I paid $30,000 for my car? give me a monetary amount answer then, since depreciation "costs me something" to do Uber??????????????


how do you know he put the gas in his car to uber? maybe he put the gas in his car and then suddenly decided to Uber just like you did with your car that you didn't buy to uber


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

troubleinrivercity said:


> People are going to keep driving in their personal lives, since driving lets you defer per-mile costs, which are paid upfront and appear surprisingly high when you get on a commuter train (whose managing agency knows the per-mile cost of running a train down to four significant figures). Same logic for driving Uber. Most car costs are deferred.


people keep driving because they like the convenience of it and they like owning their own car some people just like driving its the same reason you might have a bigger house than a smaller one you don't need it but that's what you want it's a lifestyle choice


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

UberHammer said:


> I'd like to talk about the declining quality of Colombian coffee in the past fews years. I figure this thread is as good as any to do it in. Thoughts?


Is the declining quality due to depreciation?


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> Guess that's the only ratio you know huh? Smh
> But how bout the ratio of TIME where it took you how many months to get your total, compared to me
> calculate the ratio if we both were on for same length of time....
> 
> But you only know 1 ratio, smh
> 
> You need to get off the Internet arguing you have 100 more likes than me
> this site is sad


LMFAO'!!!!!!!!!'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The ratio of posts/likes over time is more important than the ratio of posts/likes over number of posts. Got it again. You are one sharp cookie monster.

You really need to change your avatar to something more appropriate to your exalted level of posting.

May I kindly suggest:










Much more befitting a man of your incredible talent.


----------



## Uberdawg

UberHammer said:


> Please leave.


That was so good I had to LIKE it again.


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> With broken math, yeah


Its far from broken. Your logic however is.

Trust me if it was broken I would be all over Hammer and he knows it. Fact is he has it right. Get over it.


----------



## UberHammer

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Is the declining quality due to depreciation?


Grrrrrrrrrrr........


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

Bart McCoy said:


> heres the thing, and its actually a good answer:
> first there are a couple of assumptions:
> 1) that i am going to buy a new car to continue to Uber
> and 2) that i am even going to buy a car
> but for your question, lets assume 1 and 2
> but the bottom line is, and you might hate it:
> 
> I have to buy another car anyway.
> What difference does it make that I have to buy a car in 2017, instead of 2022?
> if i dont spend 30grand to buy a car in 2017, i still have to spend 30 grand(probably more because of inflation) in 2022 to get a car
> either way, i have to spend at least 30 grand to get the car I want (because i refused to sell my car rather i racked up 1 mil miles on it, or just 100 miles)
> depreciation may affect WHEN i buy it
> but not that i HAVE to buy it.
> 
> simple:
> say you bout a TV 5 years ago for $1,000
> then say you didnt buy a TV 5 years ago, but bought it now in 2015
> 
> so if you paid $1,000 5 years ago
> or if you paid $1,000 5 years from now
> whats the difference in the amount you paid no matter which year you bought it?
> NONE. either way you paid $1,000


Won't you have bought more TVs at the end of your life? Basically you're arguing that buy in a new TV every year costs the same as buying one every 10 years. Or did I misunderstand you?


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

UberHammer said:


> Grrrrrrrrrrr........


Well I'm TRYING to stay on topic....


----------



## UberHammer

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Well I'm TRYING to stay on topic....


The beans are smaller.


----------



## Uberdawg

Now that Bart is gone, it was a great OP. Most realize the difference between the IRS costs and the actual costs of operation. If I drive a 7 year old Prius my costs are much less than .57 per mile. If I peddle a brand new Escalade my costs are much higher than .57 per mile (unless of course I don't depreciate it because I'm not going to sell it and it will one day be the centerpiece of the garden in front of my double-wide). My costs are around .42 per mile calculating oil changes, brakes etc... and a fund for unscheduled shit like a transmission. Rich is right, you can't know all of the costs to till the end of the year but you can get damn close. Mine could not approach .57, especially with gas at $2. 

The OP is right in that you can't make this work even using real numbers so why use bogus IRS numbers to make it look worse. It is bad enough, AS IS.


----------



## Bart McCoy

UberHammer said:


> Please leave.


no thank you



Fuzzyelvis said:


> I want to see this car that's going to be ubered in for 500,000 miles! That statement alone is ridiculous.


You act like cars cant last that long, smh



Fuzzyelvis said:


> how do you know he put the gas in his car to uber? maybe he put the gas in his car and then suddenly decided to Uber just like you did with your car that you didn't buy to uber


say what? use English then try again



Uberdawg said:


> LMFAO'!!!!!!!!!'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> The ratio of posts/likes over time is more important than the ratio of posts/likes over number of posts. Got it again. You are one sharp cookie monster.
> 
> .


Um if someone is on the board for a year, compared to someone who is on the board for 1 month, common sense should tell you who has more time to accumulate more likes? What level of education do you have? because if you left the board today with your current number of likes, at my current RATIO,when im on the board as long as you are, i would have MORE likes than you. But of course you wanted to use the other ration in your favor, smh



Actionjax said:


> Its far from broken. Your logic however is.
> 
> Trust me if it was broken I would be all over Hammer and he knows it. Fact is he has it right. Get over it.


if you're saying it comes out to $7/hour, quit driving
if you already quit driving, leave the board and stop harassing others who are trying to profit off of Uber



Fuzzyelvis said:


> Won't you have bought more TVs at the end of your life? Basically you're arguing that buy in a new TV every year costs the same as buying one every 10 years. Or did I misunderstand you?


this is what happens when you put words in my mouth, smh. You get it all wrong plus you look dumb in the process:
if my budget is $1,000, guess what, I'm not spending more than $1,000 on a TV.
hopefully you can put the rest together, smh


----------



## UberTaxPro

Rich Brunelle said:


> It does not matter because I am either going to use the standard or an itemized higher figure. Unless you are going to use a lesser figure, this conversation is moot.


Hi Rich, this is a bit off the current topic......Does your association have a Twitter account? Maybe we could do a social media marketing campaign to inform pax about the way ratings work. How if they give the driver a 4 they are deactivating him or her. Maybe get you on the nightly news telling the world about this rating system and other Uber evils?


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> no thank you
> 
> You act like cars cant last that long, smh
> 
> say what? use English then try again
> 
> Um if someone is on the board for a year, compared to someone who is on the board for 1 month, common sense should tell you who has more time to accumulate more likes? What level of education do you have? because if you left the board today with your current number of likes, at my current RATIO,when im on the board as long as you are, i would have MORE likes than you. But of course you wanted to use the other ration in your favor, smh
> 
> if you're saying it comes out to $7/hour, quit driving
> if you already quit driving, leave the board and stop harassing others who are trying to profit off of Uber
> 
> this is what happens when you put words in my mouth, smh. You get it all wrong plus you look dumb in the process:
> if my budget is $1,000, guess what, I'm not spending more than $1,000 on a TV.
> hopefully you can put the rest together, smh


How about you read what I said. The math is right, his calculations are right. If you take the same calculations and apply it to my market I make money. The math is the same. So why would I quit.

As for likes and time that's irrelevant. I have been here one month longer than you and caused just as much shit. So why do I have more likes. That's because when I argue a point I back it up. Not just argue form the sake of it. You are an adult try acting like one and show some respect to an opinion other than one based in fantasy.

Yep it sucks when one is ganged up on here but when I was trying to support your point of view you threw it in my face. Well now enjoy the flames that follow all on your own.


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> Um if someone is on the board for a year, compared to someone who is on the board for 1 month, common sense should tell you who has more time to accumulate more likes? What level of education do you have? because if you left the board today with your current number of likes, at my current RATIO,when im on the board as long as you are, i would have MORE likes than you. But of course you wanted to use the other ration in your favor, smh


So, by your usage of ratios in this instance, if I am on the board for a year, only post once and receive 50 likes for my post and you are on the board for a week and post 500 posts and get 1 like, your ratio is better? Too funny. You can't make this shit up.

You have been proven wrong on depreciation, you have been proven wrong on ratios for likes. Anything else you would like to take a beating on? I am here to help.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> How about you read what I said. The math is right, his calculations are right. If you take the same calculations and apply it to my market I make money. The math is the same. So why would I quit.
> .


you do know I stated his math all depends on the market already right?i stated it was different in my market, esp with his 50cent base right? so now you agreeing with me? see, you be just trying to argue so much, you forget what you were arguing about!!!



Uberdawg said:


> So, by your usage of ratios in this instance, if I am on the board for a year, only post once and receive 50 likes for my post and you are on the board for a week and post 500 posts and get 1 like, your ratio is better? Too funny. You can't make this shit up.
> .


not too many people with common sense on the board I see
let me hold your hand and explain this
in your silly scenario,you need to know math,but i dont have time to explain it to you,because ratio obviously eclipses your mind
you simply find out the ratio of, how long it took to get that 50 likes, compared to the ratio of how long it took the other guy to get to 1 like
now do the ratio,and get back to me
because i guess your brain doesnt think past a week, because using a RATIO, you can figure out how many likes he would have if he was on the board for a YEAR, instead of a WEEK
i swear yall so quick to try to sass somebody, you dont even think about the actual question. you use the ratio to figure out whats best. using a RATIO, it doesnt matter if someone was on the board for a week, or a year. the RATIO solves that problem
smh
whats' your highest level of education?

to answer you, the guy with 1 like for that one week, would have 52 likes for the year, USING A RATIO
so now that we've ratioed, and both are on the board for a year, do you know whats greater between the number 50 and 52? probably not


----------



## UberHammer

And there's a bitter flavor that sugar and cream doesn't cover.


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> you do know I stated his math all depends on the market already right?i stated it was different in my market, esp with his 50cent base right? so now you agreeing with me? see, you be just trying to argue so much, you forget what you were arguing about!!!
> 
> not too many people with common sense on the board I see
> let me hold your hand and explain this
> in your silly scenario,you need to know math,but i dont have time to explain it to you,because ratio obviously eclipses your mind
> you simply find out the ratio of, how long it took to get that 50 likes, compared to the ratio of how long it took the other guy to get to 1 like
> now do the ratio,and get back to me
> because i guess your brain doesnt think past a week, because using a RATIO, you can figure out how many likes he would have if he was on the board for a YEAR, instead of a WEEK
> i swear yall so quick to try to sass somebody, you dont even think about the actual question. you use the ratio to figure out whats best. using a RATIO, it doesnt matter if someone was on the board for a week, or a year. the RATIO solves that problem
> smh
> whats' your highest level of education?
> 
> to answer you, the guy with 1 like for that one week, would have 52 likes for the year, USING A RATIO
> so now that we've ratioed, and both are on the board for a year, do you know whats greater between the number 50 and 52? probably not


Get a grip Bart. Take a look who said its market dependant first on page one. You showed up after the fact. Some people would say you are agreeing with me. But hey if it makes you feel better.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Actionjax said:


> Get a grip Bart. Take a look who said its market dependant first on page one. You showed up after the fact. Some people would say you are agreeing with me. But hey if it makes you feel better.


it is what it is, its all there in black and white
i clearly said it all depended on the market
if you want 15 cool points for being on the board to read his topic and respond to it before me, guess what, you just won 15 points!!!
not that I know what you can do with any points, but hey, you won them, so enjoy them


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> to answer you, the guy with 1 like for that one week, would have 52 likes for the year, USING A RATIO
> so now that we've ratioed, and both are on the board for a year, do you know whats greater between the number 50 and 52? probably not


Yes math whiz, this is correct. He would have 52 likes versus 50. He would have taken 2500 posts to generate the same number of likes. That is a ratio of 2500 to 1. You can be 2500, I'll be 1.

Oh. and just for grins, primarily because of this thread alone, I now have a 3.95 ratio for days to likes versus your 3.63. NEXT!


----------



## Fuzzyelvis

UberHammer said:


> The beans are smaller.


Well it won't matter unless you sell them.


----------



## Uberdawg

Fuzzyelvis said:


> Well it won't matter unless you sell them.


Now that is funny


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uberdawg said:


> Oh. and just for grins, primarily because of this thread alone, I now have a 3.95 ratio for days to likes versus your 3.63. NEXT!


who cares
get a life outside of like king on uberpoeple.net, i mean seriously


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> who cares
> get a life outside of like king on uberpoeple.net, i mean seriously


Oh, I have a life. It is why I have posted about 1/3 of your number of posts while being a member about 1/3 more time. I just have a break from it tonight so I am trying to live up to my sig line. You are the driver I have chosen for tonight.

So, now you no longer want to talk about the original post, depreciation or likes. The only other thing I have seen mentioned is coffee beans. I like dark roasted so I guess that means you are decaf?


----------



## Bart McCoy

you guys have trolled enough dont you think?

just let the thread die,sheeesh


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

UberHammer said:


> I honestly believe you are asking these questions with no desire to hear the answer. Because the answer has been given over and over, and from many different angles in the hopes that one will make sense to you.
> 
> Like you, I could say there is no purpose to ask questions other than to learn the answer. But I would be wrong in saying that, because obviously you are an example where that is not the case.


Yup, Barts just a tool, he's either just ****ing with us, or ... "you just cant fix stupid!"
No reason to respond to him.


----------



## MikeB

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Yup, Barts just a tool, he's either just ****ing with us, or ... "you just cant fix stupid!"
> No reason to respond to him.


Let him die.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> dont run away because you cant answer my question about depreciation when i dont sell the car
> 
> so basically, my scenario of never selling a car is farfetched to you? like nobody does that. EVERYONE sells every car they buy?
> another expert....


Bart, ur an idiot, and Im pretty sure ur doing this on purpose just for fun. Depreciation has absolutely nothing to do with ever selling the car .. Dumb dumb!


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Bart, ur an idiot, and Im pretty sure ur doing this on purpose just for fun. Depreciation has absolutely nothing to do with ever selling the car .. Dumb dumb!


dont call me out my name
you obviously didnt read my point about depreciation
we all know a car depreciates without selling a car
and depreciation is about value,regardless if you sell a car
but none of that was what I was debating
you going to have to follow along instead of jumping in the end all wrong


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> we all know a car depreciates
> and depreciation is about value


But you spent 8 pages of thread telling us this wasn't true for you



Bart McCoy said:


> but none of that was what I was debating


Yes you were. Only problem was, you were debating yourself. Everyone else was laughing at your "debate" and trying to make you realize your debate was pure folly.
It never matters if you sell the car. You will have to replace it earlier than you would have if you did not use it for Uber (unless it is a bionic car). There is a cost in
that. You choose to not recognize that as depreciation but any accountant will.



Bart McCoy said:


> you going to have to follow along instead of jumping in the end all wrong


He got it right and it doesn't take reading 15 pages to do it.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

ElectroFuzz said:


> *Cost per mile* (happens to be $0.42 for my 6 year old Camry)
> This is how much it cost me to drive every mile.
> This includes gas, oil changes, insurance, tires, registration, car wash, repairs (and everything else related to driving)
> and most importantly depreciation.
> So gas is spent immediately (about $0.12 per mile at the current gas prices)
> the rest $0.30 suppose to go into your savings fund to pay for all the future expenses
> you will have (tires, repairs and so on) including savings for the day you will need to replace the car.
> You suppose to save enough money so when time comes you will have the cash on hand to purchase
> the same level of car as when you started out with.
> This money is not profit, it's your operating cost.
> If you do not save this money you will have to take a car loan in the future.
> In other words you "depreciated your assets" and you do not have the funds to offset it (aka going into debt)
> 
> It doesn't mater if you sell the car or not, it's about maintaining the asset level you started with.
> Eventually your car will die or it will be deactivated due to age and at that point
> you suppose to have enough money in your "depreciation fund" to purchase the
> same level of car as when you started with.


Applause please! perfect math and correct logic, very rare on here!
And of course no one is doing that, you would have to plow your entire gross revenue back into the repair/replacement fund, and would be working for free. Thats why I say there is no profit in Uber (at these rates) you are just "eating your car" and PRETENDING that ur "earning" $!


----------



## Bart McCoy

Uberdawg said:


> But you spent 8 pages of thread telling us this wasn't true for you
> 
> .


you obviously didnt read or comprehend what I wrote, so i wont respond to you


----------



## Uberdawg

**sniff sniff**

Bart took his football and went home. He doesn't want to play anymore.


----------



## UberHammer

Uberdawg said:


> **sniff sniff**
> 
> Bart took his football and went home. He doesn't want to play anymore.


Well at least his football won't depreciate now.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> dont call me out my name
> you obviously didnt read my point about depreciation
> we all know a car depreciates without selling a car
> and depreciation is about value,regardless if you sell a car
> but none of that was what I was debating
> you going to have to follow along instead of jumping in the end all wrong


Ok, you say "I know I spent $30k the minute I bought the car".
Now you can choose how to use it.
Use it soley for personal, fine, we dont care.
But ... Use up that asset value on Ubering, then it goes directly into your Uber expenses, and against ur Uber earnings, and "affects your Ubering financially". You dont have to call it depreciation if you dont want to, but thats what it is, and it has absolutely nothing to do with ever "selling the car"!
Game/set/match/checkmate ... Gotcha!


----------



## Uberdawg

UberHammer said:


> Well at least his football won't depreciate now.


Good before bed laugh.

He's all yours.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

UberHammer said:


> Actually, Kalanick's math is that the car cost ZERO to Uber with. He honestly believes it's just costing the Uber driver some more gas and few more frequent oil changes and services. The cost of the car is completely absent from his math.
> 
> You can see this in his public speeches, where he says the sharing economy is using things that are just out there sitting idle and not being utilized. "Sharing economy" apps like Uber put these idle resources to good use. And because they already exist, their existence in the sharing economy costs nothing. It costs nothing to make something exist that already exists. It will consume gas faster and need oil changes quicker, but that's it. Isn't that wonderful?
> 
> That is the math that is being used to determine the rates as they drop, drop more, continue to drop, and drop even more this spring. It's UberAccounting.


Holy shit, it all just became perfectly clear ... Bart McCoy ... IS Travis Kalanick's screen name !!!!!!


----------



## Oscar Levant

Rich Brunelle said:


> I agree, my separate discussion of the costs variable need not be part of this posting. And, I also agree this is one of the best posts on this topic I have read thus far.


No matter how you slice it, it's not cheap to operate a commercial vehicle.

I you are grossing $20 an hour, you're probably, when all is factored in, keeping about half.
When I started, I was grossing about $30 an hour, with the slashed rates, $15 - $22 it seems. 
What kind of logic uber is using, it's not wisdom, it's techy guys in ivory white towers with little clue about the value of driver morale.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> for the sake of being tired of you trolling
> YOU WIN
> can you move along now?
> 
> however
> 
> "There are a few instances when you are looking at cars to buy where depreciation doesn't matter or may be less relevant. When you purchase a new car with the intention of driving it into the ground (however long that may take), the concern of depreciation in value is irrelevant. There is no need to worry about the value of the car if you never intend to sell it in the first place. "
> 
> If you read anywhere on the net about depreciation of a car, they will ALWAYS talk about the financial effect it has when you sell the car. Keyword there is SELL, key phrase there is SELL THE CAR
> 
> not sure why its so hard for yall to admit, for it to actually have a true financial effect, you have to sell the car, smh


TOTALY WRONG, depreciation happens on DAILY BASIS, and has absolutely NOTHING to do with "selling the car"
Can U ever get past the selling the car crap?
Ur just an uneducated ignorant tool


----------



## Oscar Levant

Bart McCoy said:


> for the sake of being tired of you trolling
> YOU WIN
> can you move along now?
> 
> however
> 
> "There are a few instances when you are looking at cars to buy where depreciation doesn't matter or may be less relevant. When you purchase a new car with the intention of driving it into the ground (however long that may take), the concern of depreciation in value is irrelevant. There is no need to worry about the value of the car if you never intend to sell it in the first place. "
> 
> If you read anywhere on the net about depreciation of a car, they will ALWAYS talk about the financial effect it has when you sell the car. Keyword there is SELL, key phrase there is SELL THE CAR
> 
> not sure why its so hard for yall to admit, for it to actually have a true financial effect, you have to sell the car, smh


So, you're not going to sell you're car? Do realize what that car is going be like in four years of commercial driving? Ever seen an old taxi?


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> not sure why its so hard for yall to admit, for it to actually have a true financial effect, you have to sell the car


I thought we had this finished Bart. If you have to replace a car earlier than you should because you used up most of it's useful life doing Uber, there is a cost there. That cost is the depreciation in the vehicle because now you have to buy another car before you should have.



Bart McCoy said:


> we all know a car depreciates without selling a car
> and depreciation is about value,regardless if you sell a car


You knew it then, did you return to stupid in just one page?


----------



## UPModerator

Enough of the confrontational banter and name-calling. Consider this a warning for anyone involved.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> another case of not reading and comprehending
> all you doing is defining depreciation, i never debated the def of depreciation
> you really cant read, because youre talking about depreciation happens on a daily basis, where, if you READ, i already admitted the car depreciated whether i sold it or not
> i never said the car didnt depreciate
> please stop replying if you're not reading and following up on what the debate is actually about,all you and other people are doin is defining what depreciation is,which again, nobody is debating


So now you finally admit that there is depreciation, even if you never sell the car, but you just dont want to assign that cost to ur Ubering, even though that is how you are using up (depreciating) the asset on a daily basis, is that correct?
GOTCHA! Ur not aloud to say "yeah, but none of that matters if I never sell the car" again!


----------



## Uberdawg

UPModerator said:


> Enough of the confrontational banter and name-calling. Consider this a warning for anyone involved.


It will obviously take a while since this thread is now viral, however, if you read back through even some of it, is easy to identify the intentional flamer.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> if you go back and read from first post, you will see i NEVER denied depreciation happened (i probably admitted it at least 3-5 times)
> you cannot go back and quote me that I said that, anywhere
> which proves you are not reading what I type and also proves you do not know what I was debating


but you just dont want to assign that cost to ur Ubering, even though that is how you are using up (depreciating) the asset on a daily basis, is that correct?
GOTCHA! Ur not aloud to say "yeah, but none of that matters if I never sell the car" again!


----------



## Uberdawg

Feel free to leave out confrontational banter since it doesn't fit your narrative.


----------



## Oc_DriverX

UberHammer said:


> My Non-variables:
> Base rate = $0.50
> Mileage rate = $1.00 per mile
> Time rate = $0.17 per minute
> SRF per trip = $1.00
> Cost per mile to drive car = $0.32
> No surge rates
> No guarantee bonuses
> 
> My Variables:
> Average miles per hour driving: 30 MPH (average includes time spent while stopped, i.e. traffic lights, waiting for customer, etc...)
> Downtime per hour: zero (meaning no waiting for pings, driver is 100% utilized by Uber system)
> Ratio of dead miles to billable miles: 50%
> Trips per hour: 3
> 
> 
> 30 miles driven in an hour with 50% being billable produces 15 billable miles per hour.
> At $1.00 per mile, that produces $15.00 in mileage revenue per hour.
> Zero downtime per hour produces 60 minutes of work per hour.
> 50% ratio of dead miles to billable miles produces 30 minutes of billable minutes per hour.
> At $0.17 per minute, 30 minutes of billable minutes per hour produces $5.10 in time revenue per hour.
> 3 trips per hour at $0.50 base rate per trip produces $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour.
> 3 trips per hour at $1.00 SRF per trip produces $3.00 in SRFs per hour.
> *$15.00 in mileage revenue per hour, plus $5.10 in time revenue per hour, plus $1.50 in base rate revenue per hour, plus, $3.00 in SRFs per hour equals $24.60 in gross fares per hour. *
> 
> 
> $24.60 minus $3.00 in SRFs equals $21.60 per hour.
> $21.60 minus Ubers 20% commission (20% of $21.60) equals $17.28 per hour.
> 
> *Uber driver will receive $17.28 payment from Uber from the $24.60 gross fares per hour.*
> 
> 
> 30 miles driven per hour with a cost of $0.32 per mile equals $9.60 in costs.
> $17.28 per hour minus $9.60 in costs equals $7.68 per hour.
> 
> *Uber driver will profit only $7.68 per hour on $24.60 in gross fares, which Uber calls "Driver Earnings". *


I would love to see Travis respond. Uber always claims to care about their "partners". Hammer has laid out very reasonable numbers that do not paint a rosy bottom line for the driver.

What makes matters worse for a lot of drivers in the USA is the fact that in addition to the lowered mileage rates some markets have dropped the base fare to $0. I don't know how many rides actually begin exactly where the previous ride ended. It happens. This weekend I had two in thirty rides where I did not have to move to start the next ride, but I think that was a little high. But using that ratio, it means that in areas with no base fare (LA/OC, Dallas, etc.) that over 93% of the rides start with the driver losing money. And, with the low mileage rates, it is very difficult to overcome those initial dead miles. IMHO, it is not a sustainable business model for the driver.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> if you cant admit you were just lying to slander me, or quote where I said depreciation never exists if i sell the car, then im not answering any of your questions
> making something up like that would make you a liar and you're not worthty of a response to anything you say
> 
> so quote me where I said that, or goodbye


just answer the question, why do you refuse to assign any of your car cost to Ubering?
Obviously It "affects you financially by reducing your Uber profits"


----------



## Rich Brunelle

Bart has been entertained for the better part of "all day" at the expense of anyone that would participate wanting to or not. At the onset of this topic there was a good demonstration of a best case scenario for a drivers earnings. It was a very good scenario, that for the sake of his discussion worked fine. I started to pollute it by bringing additional data into it that for his demonstration did not need be there, so I backed out conceding his demonstration worked well.

I came back later and Bart has roped others into his troll work and continued it for 15 more pages. I hereby nominate Bart for the "I can make people waste their time arguing ridiculous bullshit" award. Bart, quit sharing Travis bed and stop the Uber logic for the sanity of all concerned. I really hope you are not like this in person because there are already far too many jerks in the world, you really do not need to be one of them.


----------



## Uberdawg

Rich Brunelle said:


> I hereby nominate Bart for the "I can make people waste their time arguing ridiculous bullshit" award.


I had time to kill and this was a fun way to do it. It is just a shame that a credible, well thought out thread devolved into 3 pages of good information and 14 additional pages of garbage.

Any right thinking person knows depreciation occurs whether you sell the car or not. So 14 pages of this thread cold be deleted and we would all be smarter for it.


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> guess you didnt see the OP's warning,that type of talk is not allowed


Actually it was the Moderator, but who's counting?


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> so that makes me a right thinking person
> because i never denied that it didnt
> i challenged the other guy to quote me saying depreciation doesnt occur
> he couldnt
> so i extend the challenge to you
> or are you too just making things up as well?
> because if you cant prove I said it, with all the evidence is in this topic, then what you are saying is clearly a lie


Okay.



Bart McCoy said:


> explain to me how a car depreciates if you dont sell it?
> 
> If i pay $30,000 for a car, after 10 years I put 300,000 miles on it. The car may be worth 10 grand,but whats the point of putting a price on it if im not selling it?Im still out 30 grand
> If i pay $30,000 for a car, after 10 years I put 3,000 miles on it. THe car may be worth 20 grand, but whats the point of putting a price on it if im not selling it? Im still out 30 grand
> Maybe i have the definition of depreciation wrong. I thought it was how the value of an asset decreases over the years(and with cars miles). So why would I subtract depreciation costs while Ubering? The bottom line is i paid $30,000 for the car, that's how much the car will always cost me.(talking about purchase price). However if I sold the car, the purchase price would of course be less, and of course thats where depreciation comes into play


----------



## Uberdawg

Bart McCoy said:


> but again, other then knowing the value of a car at any given point, how does depreciation affect me financially if i never sell,and never intended to sell it? Lets say at 500,000 miles the car is completely depreciated. Since the value is now $0, the $30,000 i spent on it is gone. BUT, i knew my $30,000 was gone the day I bought it. Yall understand now?
> 
> so no one has yet to tell me how i'm financially affected by depreciation if i NEVER sell the car


Another nugget.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> so that makes me a right thinking person
> because i never denied that it didnt
> i challenged the other guy to quote me saying depreciation doesnt occur
> he couldnt
> so i extend the challenge to you
> or are you too just making things up as well?
> because if you cant prove I said it, with all the evidence is in this topic, then what you are saying is clearly a lie


Ok, you said "depreciation never affects me unless I sell the car", multiple times on page 3.
Go look it up and then come back and apologize! Il wait .... Il be right here.....


----------



## Uberdawg

chi1cabby said:


> Okay let's agree that it's fine for @Bart McCoy to not account for depreciation since he's not going to sell his car.
> Stop answering him...you are allowing him to flame another good thread to waste by continually responding to his posts.


If I had only listened to chi1cabby..........


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Bart McCoy said:


> no quote yet?
> 
> well then,
> lah lah lah lah lah
> doo doo doo doo do


"Depreciation is irrelevant, and should not be accounted for unless I sell the car"


----------



## Uberdawg

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> "Depreciation is irrelevant, and should not be accounted for unless I sell the car"


Before Galileo, everyone thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. This too shall pass.


----------



## Actionjax

Alright everyone. Unless you have something to say about the OP first page lets move on. We all have an opinion on this. I think the majority has swayed in favor one way. Let people make their own decisions on their own variables. It will either keep them in the game longer or get out quicker.

In the end who cares. Moral is this is a good equation for people to follow.

Hate to loose some of you to 5 day bans over stupid shit


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> I left out the word financially in the first statement
> 
> but if you READ this 2 lines:
> "
> if i pay $30,000 for a car, after 10 years I put 300,000 miles on it. The car may be worth 10 grand,but whats the point of putting a price on it if im not selling it?Im still out 30 grand
> If i pay $30,000 for a car, after 10 years I put 3,000 miles on it. THe car may be worth 20 grand, but whats the point of putting a price on it if im not selling it? Im still out 30 grand"
> 
> OBVIOUSLY i admitted that the car depreciated if im saying 20 grand right and 10 grand right?Im simply saying why calculate a value, if im not selling it. If you CLAIM im saying, said, or meant a car NEVER depreciated, then why wouldnt I say the car is STILL worth 30 grand after 10 years because im not selling it? I mean, you do know what depreciation means? It means it loses value over the years/miles. So again, why did I say its worth 10 and 20 grand,instead of 30? Explain that! smh
> 
> Then i still admit depreciation exists:
> "Maybe i have the definition of depreciation wrong. I thought it was how the value of an asset decreases over the years(and with cars miles)."
> 
> Then I simply confirm that although i admitted depreciation exists,I then said it only affects me financially if I sell it:
> 'Maybe i have the definition of depreciation wrong. I thought it was how the value of an asset decreases over the years(and with cars miles)."
> 
> Nice try of cherry picking what I wrote, but if you wanted to be fair, you would go back and find at LEAST 10 times that I said how does depreciation affect me IF I DONT SELL THE CAR. Clearly you know not selling the car was my selling point,NOT that depreciation doesnt exist.
> 
> You remind me of Michael Moore, who only makes documentaries telling one side of the story, smh


So what happens if you are in an accident and the insurance company pays you out. You can sure bet they are looking at depreciation. Selling the car is only part of what's in effects. So you are either consuming to zero or depreciating the value over time. Pick how you wish to calculate. But if your car is a write off and you get $5000 from your insurer on your $30000 car you have been hit with depreciation weather you want it or not. And you need to replace the asset with your own money to get something again. You may not ever find a $5000 replacement and just continue. You may need to spend more. Wouldn't you want to protect that asset when running Uber? I know I would.


----------



## UPModerator

Hate to say it twice. No more banter. 

If your post isn't in direct response to the OP, don't do it. We don't want to lock this thread.


----------



## good4life

OP - I applaud you for simplifying the profitability math associated with Ubering.

As far as the rest of this thread and the discussion on how depreciation affects your costs is really determined on how you account for your Uber business. Some do it on a *CASH* basis - cash in/cash out while others use an *ACCRUAL* methodology - identifying future expenses in their current costs. If you are on a cash basis, depreciation will not affect you until you 'sell' the asset. If you are on a accrual basis, depreciation is an ongoing 'future' expense that is traditionally included. OP - Which methodology are you using?

At the risk of the moderator banning my post, this is offered not to flame but to acknowledge two fundamental Accounting methodologies that are both generally accepted by accounting professionals.


----------



## UberHammer

good4life said:


> OP - I applaud you for simplifying the profitability math associated with Ubering.
> 
> As far as the rest of this thread and the discussion on how depreciation affects your costs is really determined on how you account for your Uber business. Some do it on a *CASH* basis - cash in/cash out while others use an *ACCRUAL* methodology - identifying future expenses in their current costs. If you are on a cash basis, depreciation will not affect you until you 'sell' the asset. If you are on a accrual basis, depreciation is an ongoing 'future' expense that is traditionally included. OP - Which methodology are you using?
> 
> At the risk of the moderator banning my post, this is offered not to flame but to acknowledge two fundamental Accounting methodologies that are both generally accepted by accounting professionals.


My $0.32 per mile is computed using an accrual method.

In my mind it makes no sense to use a cash basis within the framework of an estimated scenario of one hour. By using a cash basis, essentially you would have hundreds of $0.00 cost miles and then one $40.00 cost when you fill up your tank of gas. Then hundreds of $0.00 cost miles again, and then one $80.00 cost when you fill up and get an oil change. Etc, etc...

In the scenario of my post, we are talking the time frame of one hour, so the cost of a fill up, an oil change, and even more costly moments in car ownership aren't likely to occur every hour. The attempt to include them in the scenario via a cash basis presents very arguable variables as to how much of an impact they should really have on that hour. Arguable variables produce arguable results. The nature of variables is that they aren't exact, so I tried to use variables as least controversial as I could while producing what would be the "best" result profit wise.

So yes, while cash basis works for per year, per half year, per quarter, per month, etc, etc... time frames, it's not really applicable to a one hour estimation scenario. Coming up with a per mile cost via accrual method is far more productive... and accurate for the estimated scenario.

But some people are only here to cause controversy, so no amount of effort on my part to use the least controversial method is going to keep them from doing what they do.


----------



## good4life

.... Understood.


----------



## Uberdawg

The original point, I think, was to have everyone look at their own personal situation and to give people a format in which to do that. We all drive with different variables. Rates, vehicles, gas prices, maintenance costs, depreciation, geography are all different. My mileage cost is .42 per mile. Comparing to Hammers .32, his depreciation is higher but his maintenance and fuel are lower. The rates here are higher. I probably would cease driving if rates here were $1. I have better than 50% dead miles which is probably higher than some but we are pretty spread out and I am an inpatient SOB (can't sit in one spot too long). 

The cost analysis he shows fits him but you can use the format to calculate your own. If you think your only expense is gas or that the IRS number is correct, you are wrong. The IRS number is a national average to apply uniformly to everyone but that does not make it real. For one thing, the rate was determined in September when gas was still over $3 per gallon. My accountant told me virtually all of his clients that claim vehicle expense use the standard number because it works out higher than actual and you don't have to keep up with every gas ticket.


----------



## scrurbscrud

UberHammer said:


> In Ohio it's $7.25 per hour.
> 
> Toledo Ohio Uber rates are $0.70 per mile, $0.16 per minute, and $1.00 base. Run the above with those numbers and Toledo Uber drivers are making less than Ohio's minimum wage, unless they get surge rates, a higher billed/dead mile ratio, or the infrastructure allows them to get a higher MPH average.


*70 cents a mile is certifiable driver math insanity.*


----------



## scrurbscrud

At a buck a mile it works out to 80 cents a mile to the drivers. Driving reality will always prove at least a 50/50 ratio of paid to unpaid miles. That makes 40 cents a mile net to driver.

Cost is 32 cents a mile for opening poster references. So, plus 8 cents a mile over costs.

Work 12 hours at min. wage, using the opening posters number of $7.25. That's $87 for a very long 12 hour day.

How many miles would an UberX driver have to drive to make $87?

87/.08 is *1087 miles.

GET REAL.*


----------



## UberHammer

scrurbscrud said:


> At a buck a mile it works out to 80 cents a mile to the drivers. Driving reality will always prove at least a 50/50 ratio of paid to unpaid miles. That makes 40 cents a mile net to driver.
> 
> Cost is 32 cents a mile for opening poster references. So, plus 8 cents a mile over costs.
> 
> Work 12 hours at min. wage, using the opening posters number of $7.25. That's $87 for a very long 12 hour day.
> 
> How many miles would an UberX driver have to drive to make $87?
> 
> 87/.08 is *1087 miles.
> 
> GET REAL.*


Yep.

In the $7.68 per mile profit of my original post, most of that is coming from the per minute rate, not the per mile rate.

At $0.17 per minute, with 30 billable minutes per hour, that is $5.10 per hour of fares, which is $4.08 in revenue to the driver with zero cost. Add in the three $0.50 base fares, and that is $1.50 per hour in fares, which is $1.20 in revenue to the driver. So $5.28 of the of the $7.68 in profit isn't even coming from mileage. The mileage is actually only producing $2.40 per hour in profit to the driver.

Which brings up an interesting point... if someone asked me if I'd wait outside while they shop at the grocery store, I make MORE PROFIT PER HOUR waiting for them with the meter running. Waiting with the meter running produces $8.16 in profit per hour ($0.17 times 60 minutes times 80% minus zero in costs) compared to $7.68 in profit per hour running fares at $1.00 per mile 100% utilized.


----------



## scrurbscrud

UberHammer said:


> Yep.
> 
> In the $7.68 per mile profit of my original post, most of that is coming from the per minute rate, not the per mile rate.
> 
> At $0.17 per minute, with 30 billable minutes per hour, that is $5.10 per hour of fares, which is $4.08 in revenue to the driver with zero cost. Add in the three $0.50 base fares, and that is $1.50 per hour in fares, which is $1.20 in revenue to the driver. So $5.28 of the of the $7.68 in profit isn't even coming from mileage. The mileage is actually only producing $2.40 per hour in profit to the driver.
> 
> Which brings up an interesting point... if someone asked me if I'd wait outside while they shop at the grocery store, I make MORE PROFIT PER HOUR waiting for them with the meter running. Waiting with the meter running produces $8.16 in profit per hour ($0.17 times 60 minutes times 80% minus zero in costs) compared to $7.68 in profit per hour running fares at $1.00 per mile 100% utilized.


Drop rates and minute rates are another factor. Again, the general consensus is that an average driver will end up driving paid time for about 40% of their total time spent on the yob. Run the calcs from there. At 16 cents a minute in a 12 hour day that amounts to $3.84 an hour for the time pay.

Same on the drop rate. A typical driver on a full long day may do anywhere from 20-30 fares. With a $1.20 drop rate, after Uber's cutz this would be $20-30 for a long day of driving.

Neither of these are what I would call 'big factors when the per mile rate is below costs, which is the case for the majority of UberX fares today.


----------



## Actionjax

scrurbscrud said:


> Drop rates and minute rates are another factor. Again, the general consensus is that an average driver will end up driving paid time for about 40% of their total time spent on the yob. Run the calcs from there. At 16 cents a minute in a 12 hour day that amounts to $3.84 an hour for the time pay.
> 
> Same on the drop rate. A typical driver on a full long day may do anywhere from 20-30 fares. With a $1.20 drop rate, after Uber's cutz this would be $20-30 for a long day of driving.
> 
> Neither of these are what I would call 'big factors when the per mile rate is below costs, which is the case for the majority of UberX fares today.


But what if your drop rate and time rate is double that. And your per mile rate was double as well. Would that mean you can make money?


----------



## scrurbscrud

Actionjax said:


> But what if your drop rate and time rate is double that. And your per mile rate was double as well. Would that mean you can make money?


In your case using your numbers it would have to be because that appears to be thee ONLY money you might actually be making. You sure as hell ain't making a PENNY a mile according to your own figures.

NO ONE who expects a credible hearing at this site is going to claim 100% of their minute rate for their entire time driving. WHY is that you ask? Uh, because most drivers understand that they actually have to drive unpaid to their pax.

Same with dead miles. More than a few Uber pimps try to spin their dead miles down to zero here if they can run it past the sheep, but anyone who has driven for just a day or 2 knows that their dead miles factor is a reality. And most full timers will also TRUTHFULLY say that a 50/50 ratio is a GOOD ratio to use because it's REAL.


----------



## Uberdawg

That's why I have never minded waiting as long as the clock is ticking. At our rates it is $15 an hour to not move. Based on my current nets, I get paid more to wait for the guy to get his pizza than I make for taking him there. At XL, I try and get them to really take their time because that's $25 an hour.


----------



## Actionjax

scrurbscrud said:


> In your case using your numbers it would have to be because that appears to be thee ONLY money you might actually be making. You sure as hell ain't making a PENNY a mile according to your own figures.
> 
> NO ONE who expects a credible hearing at this site is going to claim 100% of their minute rate for their entire time driving. WHY is that you ask? Uh, because most drivers understand that they actually have to drive unpaid to their pax.
> 
> Same with dead miles. More than a few Uber pimps try to spin their dead miles down to zero here if they can run it past the sheep, but anyone who has driven for just a day or 2 knows that their dead miles factor is a reality. And most full timers will also TRUTHFULLY say that a 50/50 ratio is a GOOD ratio to use because it's REAL.


I agree 50/50 is a good ratio to use. Most days im close to that number. Sometimes I have been lucky and had more paid to dead. But in the end its total miles and time and the drop. And with good drop rates and short fares you can do ok.

That's not spin... that's fact. If you only look at the miles you don't have the entire picture. And every market is different. I imagine LA you are driving all over for pickups. Downtown Toronto. Most are 3 - 5 min away.


----------



## UberHammer

scrurbscrud said:


> Drop rates and minute rates are another factor. Again, the general consensus is that an average driver will end up driving paid time for about 40% of their total time spent on the yob. Run the calcs from there. At 16 cents a minute in a 12 hour day that amounts to $3.84 an hour for the time pay.


Paid time at 40% of their total times means total paid and non paid working time is 80% (at 1 dead mile to 1 billable mile ratio). So using the math in my original post, I would make $6.14 in profit per hour because 20% of my time I'm sitting waiting for a ping and not working dead nor billable miles. And I agree, this is VERY realistic, because being 100% utilized isn't a realistic expectation.



> Same on the drop rate. A typical driver on a full long day may do anywhere from 20-30 fares. With a $1.20 drop rate, after Uber's cutz this would be $20-30 for a long day of driving.
> 
> Neither of these are what I would call 'big factors when the per mile rate is below costs, which is the case for the majority of UberX fares today.


Oh, don't get me wrong. I think these profit numbers I'm showing are INSANE! I don't drive for them, and I think it's ridiculous that others are, especially when some have higher than my $0.32 per mile costs and/or lower than my $1.00 per mile rate.

I tried driving for only UberX surges and UberSelect fares. I would only get UberSelect fares when UberX was surging because the manager in my city refuses to allow me to be online as UberSelect only. So I would sit there just waiting for UberX to surge to 1.9x or higher. When it did, I'm online available for both. This resulted in my getting 50% UberX surge fares, 20% UberSelect fares and 30% UberX base fares (I won't go into the details of why I got non-surges other than not all zones surge at the same time). I made over $17 per hour profit this way with my $0.32 per mile costs. But my driver rating took a hit by three of the five surge fares four starring me.

So I don't drive anymore. It's not worth the risk of my rating falling below Uber's standards and getting deactivated when its the surge that the customers don't like about the ride.

Riders hate the surge. Drivers hate the low rates. Uber should just raises the rates and eliminate the surge and make everyone happy. I believe Travis is an idiot not doing this. He's completely out of touch with what people hate about his business. If he was in touch with that, he'd get rid of those things.


----------



## Actionjax

Uberdawg said:


> That's why I have never minded waiting as long as the clock is ticking. At our rates it is $15 an hour to not move. Based on my current nets, I get paid more to wait for the guy to get his pizza than I make for taking him there. At XL, I try and get them to really take their time because that's $25 an hour.


Yep $15 an hour here too. Was more before the cut a $18 per hour.

That's like $2 US.


----------



## scrurbscrud

UberHammer said:


> Paid time at 40% of their total times means total paid and non paid time working time is 80% (at 1 dead mile to 1 billable mile ratio). So using the math in my original post, I would make $6.14 in profit per hour because 20% of my time I'm sitting waiting for a ping and not working dead nor billable miles. And I agree, this is VERY realistic, because being 100% utilized isn't a realistic expectation.


I'd say 40% on time utilization (actual paid time) is a generous number. Realistic enough for general calcs. I've had days where it's been 45% but NEVER higher and many many days where it's less than 35%.



> Oh, don't get me wrong. I think these profit numbers I'm showing are INSANE! I don't drive for them, and I think it's ridiculous that others are, especially when some have higher than my $0.32 per mile costs and/or lower than my $1.00 per mile rate.


Were it not for the guarantees every one of these guys would go broke in a hurry. That's why I'm anxious to see who'll really be left standing when Uber pulls the guarantee rug. Maybe in Pennsyltucky they'll still be thinking they're making money.


> I tried driving for only UberX surges and UberSelect fares. I would only get UberSelect fares when UberX was surging because the manager in my city refuses to allow me to be online as UberSelect only. So I would sit there just waiting for UberX to surge to 1.9x or higher. When it did, I'm online available for both. This resulted in my getting 50% UberX surge fares, 20% UberSelect fares and 30% UberX base fares (I won't go into the details of why I got non-surges other than not all zones surge at the same time). I made over $17 per hour profit this way with my $0.32 per mile costs. But my driver rating took a hit by three of the five surge fares four starring me.


Yeah, that was my initial method of attack to the math problem as well, but in the end just sitting around trying to stab surges was not a very profitable use of my time. Some nights you can be sitting there at midnight and it just won't happen. It's generally a waste of time unless you live in the hot spots. I don't.


> So I don't drive anymore. It's not worth the risk of my rating falling below Uber's standards and getting deactivated when its the surge that the customers don't like about the ride.


Yep. Landed in the same place. And I'm pretty sure we're not alone and that those who are remaining will come to the identical logical conclusion unless they are really stupid or really desperate or both. Kinda tells you who's left driving huh?


> Riders hate the surge. Drivers hate the low rates. Uber should just raises the rates and eliminate the surge and make everyone happy. I believe Travis is an idiot not doing this. He's completely out of touch with what people hate about his business. If he was in touch with that, he'd get rid of those things.


Out of touch is a massive understatement. Watching this asshole cut off his own nose is pathetic to observe.


----------



## scrurbscrud

Uberdawg said:


> That's why I have never minded waiting as long as the clock is ticking. At our rates it is $15 an hour to not move. Based on my current nets, I get paid more to wait for the guy to get his pizza than I make for taking him there. At XL, I try and get them to really take their time because that's $25 an hour.


For surge and XL rates they can damn near do anything they please as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## scrurbscrud

UberHammer said:


> Please do not bring the IRS standard mileage deduction into the conversation. The IRS also allows a standard living expense deduction too. That doesn't mean everyone who uses it actually has that much in living expenses. The IRS sets "standard deductions" all throughout the tax code so that not everyone has to incur the costs of hiring an accountant to file their taxes. That would be government putting an undue financial burden on all of society.


Made this observation a few times now. When you say the driver makes $7.68 that is not true from the IRS view. What they consider you make will be reduced to nearly nothing by taking the std. deduction.

Meaning that the $7.68 will not have much, if any, of a tax payment. IF your tax rate is 20% combined Federal and State you could technically then factor that non-tax expense into the net after tax figure bringing it UP to a $9.60 mark on a pre-tax basis equivalent.


----------



## UberHammer

scrurbscrud said:


> Made this observation a few times now. When you say the driver makes $7.68 that is not true from the IRS view. What they consider you make will be reduced to nearly nothing by taking the std. deduction.
> 
> Meaning that the $7.68 will not have much, if any, of a tax payment. IF your tax rate is 20% combined Federal and State you could technically then factor that non-tax expense into the net after tax figure bringing it UP to a $9.60 mark on a pre-tax basis equivalent.


Correct. I actually bring it up even higher for my financial situation. However, if this Uber income is the only income for the driver, their tax rate is going to be close to zero. Especially if they have kids and are qualifying for the earned income credit. Some people at that low of income end up with more after filing their taxes than they earned working. That's good for the individual, in this case the driver. But corporations should not be in the business of profiting from 160,000 of these types of people/jobs. The rest of the tax payers essentially subsidize their workforce for them.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> My Non-variables:
> SRF per trip = $1.00


The SRF is a non-impact financial... why list it, account for it or include it in your calculations? It's credited to you - but debited as well. It has no impact on our charged and collected fares. ???


----------



## Actionjax

Michael - Cleveland said:


> The SRF is a non-impact financial... why list it, account for it or include it in your calculations? It's credited to you - but debited as well. It has no impact on our charged and collected fares. ???


I thought the same thing but it is reported on the tax forms in the US. I don't count it because we don't get tax forms for Uber in Canada. So we don't claim it in the calculations.

But from what I see it is classified as both income and an expense. So because of that there is a cost to this.

(But something tells me you can get the full amount removed from your taxes same way we remove HST from the calculation)


----------



## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> The SRF is a non-impact financial... why list it, account for it or include it in your calculations? It's credited to you - but debited as well. It has no impact on our charged and collected fares. ???


Because Uber reports SRFs to the IRS as driver revenue, so drivers are forced to claim it as an expense on schedule C.... if they don't, they pay tax on it.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> Because Uber reports SRFs to the IRS as driver revenue, so drivers are forced to claim it as an expense on schedule C.... if they don't, they pay tax on it.


Doesn't matter - it's not reported to IRS as driver revenue. It's a non impact financial issue.

Look at your driver payment statement:
You do NOT receive SRFs in your payment statements -
it is NOT included in the 1099k amount reported to the IRS as paid to you by Uber.

It is your NET payment from Uber that is reported (not your gross).
(And even if it were reported as income, it is 100% offset by claiming it as expense.)


----------



## Actionjax

No way I know what to do on this. We deal in snowflakes and maple syrup up here.

@UberHammer it's all you, I'm bowing out.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Actionjax said:


> But from what I see it is classified as both income and an expense.


Exactly.
It's a NON issue...
the revenue is cancelled out by the expense. Credit/Debit.


> So because of that there is a cost to this.


No - it's the opposite... because of that, there is NO COST TO THE DRIVER.


----------



## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Doesn't matter - it's not reported to IRS as driver revenue. It's a non impact financial issue.
> 
> Look at your driver payment statement:
> You do NOT receive SRFs in your payment statements -
> it is NOT included in the 1099k amount reported to the IRS as paid to you by Uber.
> 
> It is your NET payment from Uber that is reported (not your gross).
> (And even if it were reported as income, it is 100% offset by claiming it as expense.)


You can say it's not reported to the IRS. But my accountant and I confirmed it was included in the 1099-K amount Uber sent to me and the IRS, and thus needed to be listed on the schedule C so I wouldn't pay tax on it. Uber's 20% commission also needed to be listed on the schedule C so I wouldn't pay tax on it either.

The 1099-K amount is total fares, including the SRFs. It's NOT just the drivers net pay.

Many others here have said the same. So I don't care if you think otherwise.


----------



## UberHammer

Here the Rideshareguy explains it in a video:


----------



## Uberdawg

Box 1a on my 1099K has the total of my Uber Fares+SRF+split rides fee=1a Number so the SRF is in the income that Uber is reporting for me as well.


----------



## Luberon

Question is: does including SRF affect the calculations in any way? I doubt that unless I read the numbers wrong.
So this in my opinion is a case of "you say to-mah-to"


----------



## Uberdawg

We need to include it on the tax return because Uber is reporting it as being paid to us by the 1099K they gave us (a copy of which also goes to the government). Instant flag would be reporting an income different from what the IRS shows.


----------



## UberHammer

Luberon said:


> Question is: does including SRF affect the calculations in any way? I doubt that unless I read the numbers wrong.
> So this in my opinion is a case of "you say to-mah-to"


In addition to the tax reasons, I think eventually the whole "Safe Ride Fee" name for it is going to go away. The $1 will just become part of the base fare and Uber's commision structure becomes the first $1 of the fare and 20% of the rest. I'm just preparing for that day in how I do the math.

When Uber makes the change, the math won't change a thing for the driver. So there won't be any backlash.

But if instead of introducing the SRF when they did, they tried to roll out the new commission structure of taking the first $1 of every fare, drivers would have revolted over Uber's greed. The whole SRF plan enabled Uber's greed without a huge driver backlash over it.

With an average ride being $6, the first $1 of every fare represents 50% of Uber's revenues. Because of it, they'd rather have a driver make five $4 fares than one $20 fare. It's 67% more revenue to them.


----------



## Luberon

UberHammer said:


> In addition to the tax reasons, I think eventually the whole "Safe Ride Fee" name for it is going to go away. The $1 will just become part of the base fare and Uber's commision structure becomes the first $1 of the fare and 20% of the rest. I'm just preparing for that day in how I do the math.
> 
> When Uber makes the change, the math won't change a thing for the driver. So there won't be any backlash.
> 
> But if instead of introducing the SRF when they did, they tried to roll out the new commission structure of taking the first $1 of every fare, drivers would have revolted over Uber's greed. The whole SRF plan enabled Uber's greed without a huge driver backlash over it.
> 
> With an average ride being $6, the first $1 of every fare represents 50% of Uber's revenues. Because of it, they'd rather have a driver make five $4 fares than one $20 fare. It's 67% more revenue to them.


√√√ this is the reason low fares are here to stay.
The entire uberX financing model is built around the $1 srf. Even at $2 min fare ubers cut is guaranteed.


----------



## scrurbscrud

UberHammer said:


> In addition to the tax reasons, I think eventually the whole "Safe Ride Fee" name for it is going to go away. The $1 will just become part of the base fare and Uber's commision structure becomes the first $1 of the fare and 20% of the rest. I'm just preparing for that day in how I do the math.
> 
> When Uber makes the change, the math won't change a thing for the driver. So there won't be any backlash.
> 
> But if instead of introducing the SRF when they did, they tried to roll out the new commission structure of taking the first $1 of every fare, drivers would have revolted over Uber's greed. The whole SRF plan enabled Uber's greed without a huge driver backlash over it.
> 
> With an average ride being $6, the first $1 of every fare represents 50% of Uber's revenues. Because of it, they'd rather have a driver make five $4 fares than one $20 fare. It's 67% more revenue to them.


Pretty sure a good chunk of the SRF is going to James River, so it's probably not all gravy to Uber. They don't get that insurance for zippo.


----------



## UberHammer

scrurbscrud said:


> Pretty sure a good chunk of the SRF is going to James River, so it's probably not all gravy to Uber. They don't get that insurance for zippo.


Doesn't matter if it's all gravy. It's still a quicker source of revenue than the 20% commission. It should cost the same amount of insurance for $20 in fares on one trip or five trips. If anything the one trip would cost more in insurance because it covers more miles than the five trips combined. $20 in fares on five trips produces $8 to Uber. $20 in fares on one trip produces only $4.80.


----------



## Luberon

Luberon said:


> √√√ this is the reason low fares are here to stay.
> The entire uberX financing model is built around the $1 srf. Even at $2 min fare ubers cut is guaranteed.


Uber has already cast its bet by incentivizing low fares for itself. The gains to them are huge (market share, addicted/hooked customers).
They have a system in place which puts their financial well being directly at odds with that of their drivers. They make much more money on short rides for which the driver takes losses. Hence the policy to deactivate drivers that refuse those short rides.
Most businesses do well when their employees/contractors are doing well. Travis has set up the reverse.
In the short term this model works because drivers have no say whatsoever in decision making but are competing against themselves in a race to the bottom. While you are waiting for that surge 50 other drivers are online waiting for a base fare ping. And it is almost impossible for drivers to organize in a meaningful way

In my market I have college students that take uber/Lyft everyday from library to their dorm rooms or apt 3 blocks away. THAT is Travis' golden goose.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Uberdawg said:


> Box 1a on my 1099K has the total of my Uber Fares+SRF+split rides fee=1a Number so the SRF is in the income that Uber is reporting for me as well.


omg... CREDITS & DEBITS, folks. You pay tax on your ADJUSTED GROSS INCOME (AGI). It's on the 1099k because in UberWorld YOU are the one charging the customer. It's also reported on the 1099k that the SRF, Split Fees and UberFee are EXPENSES you paid to Uber. Just like the Uber Fees and split fees, the SRFs come off your total revenues as expenses and you do not pay tax on them. The SRF is a NON-IMPACT financial issue when calculating your driver expenses - it's credit on one side of the balance sheet and debited on the other side - unlike your UNREIMBURSED BUSINESS EXPENSES, like fuel, insurance, depreciation, snacks & water you give away, car washes, cleaning supplies and pine-tree air fresheners.


----------



## Luberon

Uber has set up a system where their cut is guaranteed in every possible scenario while driver profits are possible if a few factors all happen to come into play(short pickup, long ride, surge)
Uber corp could have absorbed some of the drivers losses from short trips by charging a flat rate structure (say 25%). So they make the same $5 from single 20$ trip vs five 4$ trips. This will mean uber making less for the amount it spends in processing 5 cc payments and back end processing demands of 5 different rides. In essence they will be using the longer and surge rides to subsidize reduced revenue from base fares. This puts their business model firmly in line with that of drivers.
Numbers don't lie. Every base fare and long a driver takes subsidizes ubers business and helps them build a reputation as a cheap reliable transport provider (oops.. Tech company)
This inverted business model is no better than your classic ponzi scheme. How can you provide reliable transportation on demand at a fraction of the cost? You can't. Well, if you push the costs of doing business to the driver, shun municipal fees and taxes and duck from insurance companies you can get away with it. But only for so long.

Insurance companies and municipalities are catching up. 

I predict in a few months the general community of drivers will catch on to the bai and switch after a few busted trannys and knocked pedestrians make it to mainstream media. By the end of 2015 you will start seeing a wave of ex-UberXes flood the used car markets and they will gain a nasty rep in line with a salvage title. Carfax will start checking whether your Vin was ever on uber registry. Court cases will set precedent to disclose uber use of your vehicle at trade in.


----------



## Uberdawg

Michael - Cleveland said:


> omg... CREDITS & DEBITS, folks. You pay tax on your ADJUSTED GROSS INCOME (AGI). It's on the 1099k because in UberWorld YOU are the one charging the customer. It's also reported on the 1099k that the SRF, Split Fees and UberFee are EXPENSES you paid to Uber. Just like the Uber Fees and split fees, the SRFs come off your total revenues as expenses and you do not pay tax on them. The SRF is a NON-IMPACT financial issue when calculating your driver expenses - it's credit on one side of the balance sheet and debited on the other side - unlike your UNREIMBURSED BUSINESS EXPENSES, like fuel, insurance, depreciation, snacks & water you give away, car washes, cleaning supplies and pine-tree air fresheners.


Where are they reported? The only place I have seen those is the Uber Tax Summary which is not a part of the 1099K.


----------



## Uberdawg

Michael - Cleveland said:


> omg... CREDITS & DEBITS, folks. You pay tax on your ADJUSTED GROSS INCOME (AGI). It's on the 1099k because in UberWorld YOU are the one charging the customer. It's also reported on the 1099k that the SRF, Split Fees and UberFee are EXPENSES you paid to Uber. Just like the Uber Fees and split fees, the SRFs come off your total revenues as expenses and you do not pay tax on them. The SRF is a NON-IMPACT financial issue when calculating your driver expenses - it's credit on one side of the balance sheet and debited on the other side - unlike your UNREIMBURSED BUSINESS EXPENSES, like fuel, insurance, depreciation, snacks & water you give away, car washes, cleaning supplies and pine-tree air fresheners.


By the way, I think we understand that it has no impact. It is listed as income but it is only shown on the tax summary as an expense and not the 1099K. I think a lot of people know it is deductible, I think the point is making sure others know it is included in their 1099K income and that they must deduct it. By reading the thread, it is obvious that some are not clear on that point. And it is not a Balance Sheet item but an Income Statement item


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Bart McCoy said:


> i'm trying to understand @Michael - Cleveland
> on the 1099k sent to us, it indeed includes the 20% and SRF that of course never went into our bank accounts
> now he says Uber reports just the net to the IRS
> so its possible for say UBer send us a 1099K for $1,000 of pay, but sends a report of our actual net pay to the IRS for amount of ($8000-SRF)?????????





Uberdawg said:


> Where are they reported? The only place I have seen those is the Uber Tax Summary which is not a part of the 1099K.


No... the 1099k (third party payor report) reports ALL of the revenue YOU charged your customers) which includes all fees - including the ones that Uber 'requires we charge' - like SRF, Split Fess, etc.)... but those fees are also identified as what drivers pay - as an expense - to Uber, along with the Uber fee for using the app (20%/28%/whatever%).

The point is, and my question was: It's insane to count those non-impact fees as 'expenses' when you're calculating your expenses because while they are deducted, they are also charged. They are both a debit and a credit on your balance sheet. *For the purpose of figuring your actual expenses along with fuel, insurance, depreciation, etc. you can't count the SRF as something you PAY *(an expense)* unless you also count it as something you RECEIVE *(revenue).


----------



## Uberdawg

Michael - Cleveland said:


> No... the 1099k (third party payor report) reports ALL of the revenue YOU charged your customers) which includes all fees - including the ones that Uber 'requires we charge' - like SRF, Split Fess, etc.)... but those fees are also identified as what drivers pay - as an expense - to Uber, along with the Uber fee for using the app (20%/28%/whatever%).


Where are these numbers identified? Are they reported to the IRS as expenses? They are not on the 1099K and they are not reported to the IRS as expenses unless I report them. The only place I have seen these numbers is the Uber Tax Summary which is not a part of the 1099K or a document that is supplied to the IRS.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> The point is, and my question was: It's insane to count those non-impact fees as 'expenses' when you're calculating your expenses because while they are deducted, they are also charged. They are both a debit and a credit on your balance sheet.


Once again, not to be picky, these are *not Balance Sheet items but they are Income Statement Items*. Huge difference.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> *For the purpose of figuring your actual expenses along with fuel, insurance, depreciation, etc. you can't count the SRF as something you PAY *(an expense)* unless you also count it as something you RECEIVE *(revenue).


And when UberHammer did his calculation, he included them as both revenue and expense. I do the same. Sorry you don't care for the how we do it, but we are recognizing the expense and the income at the same time. As you have even said before, Uber causes us to use this tortured logic but as long as you account for the expense and the revenue, what ****ing difference does it make.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Uberdawg said:


> Where are they reported?


They are reported, by line item, in the weekly pay statement.








The PAY (deposit) you receive is your gross revenue (fares + surge + misc).
The RIDER FEEs PAYMENT (SRF & Splits) is 100% OFFSET by the RIDER FEEs DEDUCTION - together, they have no impact on your GROSS REVENUE, earnings, expenses or tax liability -
it's NOT an expense, to be figured into your costs (using spreadsheets or whatever) because it is both credited and debited.

The Uber FEE is your deductible expense: what you pay to Uber to use their app. This is a tax deductible expense.
So, my question was (and is) why do folks who post 'real' earnings (to arrive at figures like $2.12/hr) count the SRF fees in their calculations when they are not counted on the revenue side?


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Uberdawg said:


> And when UberHammer did his calculation, he included them as both revenue and expense. I do the same. Sorry you don't care for the how we do it, but we are recognizing the expense and the income at the same time. As you have even said before, Uber causes us to use this tortured logic but as long as you account for the expense and the revenue, what ****ing difference does it make.


I didn't see the SRFs counted in UberHammer's calculation as revenue - only expense - I'll look again - thanks... but others have done this and I don't really understand why (since its a credit and debit). Drivers are always *****ing & moaning about the SRF.



> Once again, not to be picky, these are *not Balance Sheet items but they are Income Statement Items*.


Yes, of course... but these calculations I see all over the forums seem to always list the SRF as an expense but seem to fail to include it as off-set by the revenue.


----------



## Uberdawg

I get what you are saying . My only thing has been to make sure some of the drivers without proper business backgrounds realize that Uber is including their commissions, SRF and even split fares in the income they put on the 1099K. I just want to make sure these guys deduct those as legit expenses. From what I have seen, the fact that these are included in their 1099 is news to some because they never see the money.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> My $0.32 per mile is computed using an accrual method...
> Coming up with a per mile cost via accrual method is far more productive... and accurate for the estimated scenario.


I understand your methodology - and it's as solid as any other reasonable method for calculating costs properly.

But I question why so many people focus on the 'hourly' earnings and 'hourly costs'.
I haven't earned an 'hourly wage' since I was around 17 years old. Entrepreneurs, and the Self-Employed and business owners don't figure their earnings (or expenses) on an hourly basis (it's silly - and as you accurately note above, kind of like nailing jello to a wall) - so why are drivers so obsessed with it? As an independent worker (business owner/entrepreneur/whatever) all I care about is profitability and growth... not hourly numbers.

Thoughts?


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Uberdawg said:


> I get what you are saying . My only thing has been to make sure some of the drivers without proper business backgrounds realize that Uber is including their commissions, SRF and even split fares in the income they put on the 1099K. I just want to make sure these guys deduct those as legit expenses. From what I have seen, the fact that these are included in their 1099 is news to some because they never see the money.


I do not have a 1099k for 2014... it would be great if someone here who drove most of last year would post theirs as an image (redacted to hide personal info, of course).

Actually - it's not necessary. Uber reports the total amount you charge your customers... and they provide you with the details of what you pay to Uber so you can deduct your expenses. They have to do it that way in order to maintain the façade of a 3rd party payor. If they showed your revenue less your expenses (paid to Uber) it would hurt their legal argument that you (we) are an independent contractor.


----------



## Uberdawg

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I understand your methodology - and it's as solid as any other reasonable method for calculating costs properly.
> 
> But I question why so many people focus on the 'hourly' earnings and 'hourly costs'.
> I haven't earned an 'hourly wage' since I was around 17 years old. Entrepreneurs, and the Self-Employed and business owners don't figure their earnings (or expenses) on an hourly basis (it's silly - and as you accurately note above, kind of like nailing jello to a wall) - so why are drivers so obsessed with it? As an independent worker (business owner/entrepreneur/whatever) all I care about is profitability and growth... not hourly numbers.
> 
> Thoughts?


I do it more from the standpoint of simply seeing what I am doing. As you, I have never worked for anyone else since I was in High School (except I spent a year after retiring to help a friend straighten out his ****ed up plumbing business). I do this not for money but to have something to do other than playing golf and gin rummy. I did reacquire my General Contractors License and I am going to build a few houses a year. Much easier than this gig. It has been fun though and helped me relearn the city after being gone for 30 years.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Uberdawg said:


> It has been fun though and helped me relearn the city after being gone for 30 years.


Funny you should say that. I lived in this city for 26 years - a city very clearly divided into east and west by a river. I live on the far east side. And I thought I knew the entire area pretty well after all these years. Since driving Uber I have been amazed at how much I didn't know about not just the west side of town, but also everything that's going on downtown.

Makes me wish I was 30 again.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Actually - it's not necessary. Uber reports the total amount you charge your customers... and they provide you with the details of what you pay to Uber so you can deduct your expenses. They have to do it that way in order to maintain the façade of a 3rd party payor. If they showed your revenue less your expenses (paid to Uber) it would hurt their legal argument that you (we) are an independent contractor.


Sorta funny you came in here telling people that we pay tax on adjusted income. Everyone replying to you already knows this. Everyone also disputes that you say Uber lists the SRF and comm ,when all they do is give you one lump total,and WE have to figure out what was ACTUALLY paid to us. Also funny you said we cant write off SRF as an expense because we didnt "receive" it. We all know that the 20% ans SRF never actually went to us,that we never used actually money in our bank accounts to pay Uber. Uber took all that money first,and we only saw cash from what was left after subtracting (SRF + 20%). But with the 1099 Uber sends, they make it SEEM as if we actually got paid/received all the cash from the SRF and 20% comm.

I think all you added to this topic was confusion.


----------



## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I understand your methodology - and it's as solid as any other reasonable method for calculating costs properly.
> 
> But I question why so many people focus on the 'hourly' earnings and 'hourly costs'.
> I haven't earned an 'hourly wage' since I was around 17 years old. Entrepreneurs, and the Self-Employed and business owners don't figure their earnings (or expenses) on an hourly basis (it's silly - and as you accurately note above, kind of like nailing jello to a wall) - so why are drivers so obsessed with it? As an independent worker (business owner/entrepreneur/whatever) all I care about is profitability and growth... not hourly numbers.
> 
> Thoughts?


Because as the old cliche says "Time is money".

Time is finite. It's limited. Because of this time is an investment. And for the investment to be worth it, the return must exceed the minimum expectation of what is invested. Time is therefore a factor of that calculation.

If someone just wants a $100 return on $100 in costs, if after all their work they produce $200 in revenue on $100 in costs, then that is a success. The $100 return was achieved.

But if one person accomplished $200 in revenue on $100 in costs in 10 hours, but another person accomplished $200 in revenue on $100 in costs in 50 hours, the work for $200 in revenue on $100 in costs is worth it to one but not the other. Because the one made $10 for each hour they invested, and the other only made $2 for each hour they invested. It's the exact same revenue, costs and profit numbers. The only difference is the second one required a much BIGGER investment in time. It makes a difference.


----------



## Actionjax

So in other words the SRF fee should never be based in a calculation. Because it does not affect the driver. You just need to record it on your form.

And here people were counting SRF fees into their "I pay Uber a SRF"

Fact is you do none of it, you don't pay tax on it you don't get it so it does not affect your payout.


----------



## UberHammer

Actionjax said:


> So in other words the SRF fee should *never* be based in a calculation. Because it does not affect the driver. You just need to record it on your form.


What's with the absolute? It doesn't HAVE to be in the calculation. Nor should it NEVER be in the calculation. Calculating it with the fee and calculating it without the fee both produce the same result if the math is done correctly. They're both correct methods.

Taking a position that one is right and the other is wrong is ridiculous. Pick the way you like to do it, and do it that way. It's your preference.



> And here people were counting SRF fees into their "I pay Uber a SRF"


According to how Uber is reporting it, the driver charges the customer $1 for the SRF, and then pays Uber $1 for the SRF.

To the driver it's a wash, but they are in fact paying Uber a SRF. They also charged the customer for it.



> Fact is you do none of it, you don't pay tax on it you don't get it so it does not affect your payout.


If the driver doesn't tell the government they paid Uber for all the SRFs, then they will pay tax on it, because Uber tells the government the driver charged the riders for all the SRFs.


----------



## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Drivers are always *****ing & moaning about the SRF.


I never *****ed once about it... until Uber told the IRS that I collected the fee from the customer.

Now the burden is on me to show it to the IRS as an expense too, and if I get audited, the burden of explaining that flow to the auditor. It doesn't produce one penny of additional profit to me to have that burden. Uber is the beneficiary of doing it that way, not me.


----------



## UberHammer

Bart McCoy said:


> hopefully the IRS workers arent morons
> there are thousands and thousands of Uber workers and their shouldnt be no burden of flow explanation since a human or computer should catch the fact that every Uberer is claiming a $1/ride expense and 20% off of the total amount Uber sent to the IRS


I'd be willing to bet there are thousands of Uber drivers NOT claiming SRFs and the 20% commission on schedule C of their tax filings. Those of us who are claiming them will the ones showing the IRS why we're right to do so.

Again, Uber didn't do it this way last year, so these new tax filings for Uber drivers is new to the IRS, even though it's right.


----------



## Actionjax

UberHammer said:


> I'd be willing to bet there are thousands of Uber drivers NOT claiming SRFs and the 20% commission on schedule C of their tax filings. Those of us who are claiming them will the ones showing the IRS why we're right to do so.
> 
> Again, Uber didn't do it this way last year, so these new tax filings for Uber drivers is new to the IRS, even though it's right.


We didn't even get tax filing forms from Uber. I guess claiming this is going to be voluntary here in Canada. We just need to put it in the other income spot.

No breakdown no breakouts. Just what we got in our bank accounts.

If it wasn't for the large expenses I would just pass on filing it since it's under $5000. But my accountant said I would be crazy not to file. I'm expected money back for that piece that will help offset the shitty bill I will be getting from the CRA this year.


----------



## scrurbscrud

Actionjax said:


> We didn't even get tax filing forms from Uber. I guess claiming this is going to be voluntary here in Canada. We just need to put it in the other income spot.
> 
> No breakdown no breakouts. Just what we got in our bank accounts.
> 
> If it wasn't for the large expenses I would just pass on filing it since it's under $5000. But my accountant said I would be crazy not to file. I'm expected money back for that piece that will help offset the shitty bill I will be getting from the CRA this year.


Doesn't the 3/4 socialist system there have a 2 line form?

How much did you make?

Send it in.


----------



## Actionjax

scrurbscrud said:


> Doesn't the 3/4 socialist system there have a 2 line form?
> 
> How much did you make?
> 
> Send it in.


I have never seen one. And I'm going to need to go back and manually add up what my take home was since Late September. From what I remember it was almost $4K.

It just goes on the line in out tax forms as other income. Just putting something in that box tells the CRA you are claiming for something they have no eyes on. And you are a good little tax payer...lol.


----------



## getFubered

scrurbscrud said:


> Doesn't the 3/4 socialist system there have a 2 line form?
> 
> How much did you make?
> 
> Send it in.


hahaha


----------



## scrurbscrud

getFubered said:


> hahaha


Props to the Canucks for this tribute:

http://www.businessinsider.com/bank-of-canada-stop-drawing-leonard-nimoy-spock-on-money-2015-3

{the Lincoln conversion is better!}


----------



## Actionjax

scrurbscrud said:


> Props to the Canucks for this tribute:
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/bank-of-canada-stop-drawing-leonard-nimoy-spock-on-money-2015-3
> 
> {the Lincoln conversion is better!}


I got a good chuckle on it myself.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Bart McCoy said:


> Sorta funny you came in here telling people that we pay tax on adjusted income. Everyone replying to you already knows this. Everyone also disputes that you say Uber lists the SRF and comm ,when all they do is give you one lump total,and WE have to figure out what was ACTUALLY paid to us. Also funny you said we cant write off SRF as an expense because we didnt "receive" it. We all know that the 20% ans SRF never actually went to us,that we never used actually money in our bank accounts to pay Uber. Uber took all that money first,and we only saw cash from what was left after subtracting (SRF + 20%). But with the 1099 Uber sends, they make it SEEM as if we actually got paid/received all the cash from the SRF and 20% comm.
> 
> I think all you added to this topic was confusion.


I agree that my QUESTION led to a lot of confusing discussion - you remember the question, right? It was 'why do people who come up with formulas to figure out their 'actual earnings' include the SRFs when they are neither revenue or expense? It wasn't a question about taxes or tax filing.

I got dragged into the tax discussion, where people are already confused, but UnderDawg and ActionJax see what I was getting at.
So please avoid saying 'we' and 'everyone' when admonishing me - you speak for just one person here, yourself (and quite well, at that).

As far as the difficulty you may have figuring out your net revenue,


> Everyone also disputes that you say Uber lists the SRF and comm ,when all they do is give you one lump total...


I'm sorry it's confusing to YOU. As I have exhibited and explained above, screenshot included, you receive a LINE ITEM breakdown of your NET REVENUE from Uber. It's as clear as sunlight what your earnings are, after Uber expenses.


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## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> What's with the absolute? It doesn't HAVE to be in the calculation. Nor should it NEVER be in the calculation. Calculating it with the fee and calculating it without the fee both produce the same result if the math is done correctly.


Agreed - but what I have seen is calculations that aren't done correctly - where the SRF is included as an expense but not as a revenue... which is why I asked the question to begin with.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> I'd be willing to bet there are thousands of Uber drivers NOT claiming SRFs and the 20% commission on schedule C of their tax filings. Those of us who are claiming them will the ones showing the IRS why we're right to do so.


hehe... In the US, I bet there are thousands of Uber drivers not reporting anything to the IRS - income or expense... they just drive and figure they are making money!



> Again, Uber didn't do it this way last year, so these new tax filings for Uber drivers is new to the IRS, even though it's right.


You do know it's not just Uber that 'didn't do it this way last year', right? Uber didn't just makes this stuff up as part of their 'scheme' of confusing things... 2014 was the first tax year the IRS required the use of the 1099k. It's the same reason that if you have a merchant account for credit cards, they, too, now are required to report all funds collected on your behalf - on the same 1099k.


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## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Agreed - but what I have seen is calculations that aren't done correctly - where the SRF is included as an expense but not as a revenue... which is why I asked the question to begin with.


Are you talking about in the original post of this thread? It's both in the revenue and the expense.


----------



## Actionjax

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Agreed - but what I have seen is calculations that aren't done correctly - where the SRF is included as an expense but not as a revenue... which is why I asked the question to begin with.


That was the same issue I was seeing. People had it as an expense and not a revenue when they were calculating profitability. I left it alone as I had no clue on what is being done in the US. Now I am clear and have a better stand on how this plays out. It's a wash plain and simple.


----------



## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> hehe... In the US, I bet there are thousands of Uber drivers not reporting anything to the IRS - income or expense... they just drive and figure they are making money!
> 
> You do know it's not just Uber that 'didn't do it this way last year', right? Uber didn't just makes this stuff up as part of their 'scheme' of confusing things... 2014 was the first tax year the IRS required the use of the 1099k. It's the same reason that if you have a merchant account for credit cards, they, too, now are required to report all funds collected on your behalf - on the same 1099k.


The 1099-k was created in 2006. Uber used it last year for a handful of their drivers who did over $20,000 in fares. This is the first year they did it for ALL drivers. Uber is only required to do it by law for drivers with over $20,000 in fares. The law didn't change. Uber decided to do it for all drivers on its own.


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## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> The 1099-k was created in 2006.


The 1099K reporting wasn't required until tax year 2014.


----------



## UberHammer

Another reason I CHOOSE to include the SRF when doing calculations is because Uber's guarantees INCLUDE SRFs. So when Uber says drivers "earn" say $22 an hour, that number they are claiming includes SRFs.


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## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> The 1099K reporting wasn't required until tax year 2014.


Says the guy who said the 1099-K was only the net payments to the driver.

Uber was required to report 2013 driver fares on 1099-k for their drivers who did over $20,000 in fares. That law hasn't changed. I was wrong about the 1099K being started in 2006. It was actually 2008. To say 1099K reporting wasn't required until tax year 2014 is ludicrous. It's been required for years, although the specifics of the requirements have been changing. Nothing about it changed forcing Uber to report all drivers on 1099K. Uber made that decision on their own.


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## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> Says the guy who said the 1099-K was only the net payments to the driver..


yeah - that was a f-u... and I corrected it and explained it was gorss - and that the SRFs, Fees, etc. are reported to the driver, clearly, in their pay statements.



> To say 1099K reporting wasn't required until tax year 2014 is ludicrous.


Ludicrous as it may be to you - it's also reality.
- says the guy with three different merchant credit card vendor accounts which each notified him in January 2014 that all credit card receipts would be reported to IRS (for the first time) at end of year on 1099k, as required by law. Got the same notice for 2014 from my bank regarading my business bank accounts.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Bart McCoy said:


> So what me and some others are saying, sure they clearly list every week what goes into your bank account, but at the end of the year, they report to the IRS money that never entered our bank account. You should never have to pay tax on money you never actually received.


What is it that you do not understand about the 1099k?
Forget Uber for a second.
I accept credit cards in my business.
The copy of 1099k I receive from my merchant banks which is reported to IRS includes all of the revenue I charged my customers.
But I also have monthly service fees, discount fees, per transaction fees, etc - that get deducted from what I actually receive from my merchant bank. So my net receipts from my merchant bank are lower than the total receipts the merchant bank reports on 1099k.
No different than Uber.


----------



## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> yeah - that was a f-u... and I corrected it and explained it was gorss - and that the SRFs, Fees, etc. are reported to the driver, clearly, in their pay statements.
> 
> Ludicrous as it may be to you - it's also reality.
> - says the guy with three different merchant credit card vendor accounts which each notified him in January 2014 that all credit card receipts would be reported to IRS (for the first time) at end of year on 1099k, as required by law.


Uber drivers don't have accounts with merchant credit card vendors unless they are using Square or something else to collect tips with. Uber isn't an issuer of credit. It's not regulated like a bank.

The only 1099K required by law in the Uber business model is for what Uber collected from Uber's merchant credit card vendors, and independent contractors who do more than $20,000 with them.


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## Michael - Cleveland

I think part of the confusion here may be that some people think that just because a 3rd party payor reports a 1099k (or a business reports a 1099) that it means the IRS automagically sends the tax payer a bill for taxes. That's not how the US tax code works. The IRS require tax payers to file tax returns to report their revenues and expenses and calculate their tax liability. The whole idea and purpose of the 1099k was to provide a means for IRS to audit and verify revenues for tax purposes. The don't receive a 1099k from Uber and send you a bill for the tax liability. The 1099k just makes it harder for businesses and individuals to 'hide' income (since the 1099k provides a reporting trail).


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## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I think part of the confusion here may be that *some people think that just because a 3rd party payor reports a 1099k (or a business reports a 1099) that it means the IRS automagically sends the tax payer a bill for taxes*. That's not how the US tax code works. The IRS require tax payers to file tax returns to report their revenues and expenses and calculate their tax liability. The whole idea and purpose of the 1099k was to provide a means for IRS to audit and verify revenues for tax purposes. The don't receive a 1099k from Uber and send you a bill for the tax liability. The 1099k just makes it harder for businesses and individuals to 'hide' income (since the 1099k provides a reporting trail).


Please link to a post where you think someone is saying that. Thanks.


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## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> Please link to a post where you think someone is saying that. Thanks.


It's just the impression I get from reading folks posts here. No complaint from me if you don't get that impression.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Bart McCoy said:


> Please dont skirt the question. Post any 1099K that Uber issues where it clearly lists the 20% and the SRF line by line as you say. Again, a 1099K.
> 
> Yeah, he's just reaching now


I'm not reaching for anything... just trying to bring some clarity to the issues of SRFs, fees and tax reporting.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> Uber drivers don't have accounts with merchant credit card vendors unless they are using Square or something else to collect tips with. Uber isn't an issuer of credit. It's not regulated like a bank.
> 
> The only 1099K required by law in the Uber business model is for what Uber collected from Uber's merchant credit card vendors, and independent contractors who do more than $20,000 with them.


Seriously? I didn't say Uber drivers have credit card merchant accounts - I said that the 1099k was designed to report revenues to IRS that in the past were not easy for IRS to track - like credit card merchant accounts (which in the past never reported to IRS) - and that Uber, as a 3rd party payor, falls in to the same category.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> Another reason I CHOOSE to include the SRF when doing calculations is because Uber's guarantees INCLUDE SRFs. So when Uber says drivers "earn" say $22 an hour, that number they are claiming includes SRFs.


Interesting point - but how do Uber's guarantees 'inlcude' any SRF fees?

If I am online for 1 hour during a $20 guarantee period, and my 'gross' fares for that hour are two trips at $5 ea, Uber pays me:
$10, less $2 in SRFs, less 20%
- and then I receive $10 in guarantee under misc. for the difference between the $10 in fares and the $20 guarantee.

So what does the guarantee/misc revenue have to do with the SRFs?


----------



## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Seriously? I didn't say Uber drivers have credit card merchant accounts - I said that the 1099k was designed to report revenues to IRS that in the past were not easy for IRS to track - like credit card merchant accounts (which in the past never reported to IRS) - and that Uber, as a 3rd party payor, falls in to the same category.


Uber only falls in that category for drivers who did $20,000 or more in fares.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Michael - Cleveland said:


> So what does the guarantee/misc revenue have to do with the SRFs?


Oh... Ok... I see what you're saying: If you are attempting to track your numbers so that you know what guarantee Uber owes you, then you have to also track the SRF.

I haven't looked closely at that so I assume you're right (no reason to doubt you.). I don't work for the guarantees since after the first round of winter guarantees they changed the program such that to participate would have me working at times and in ways I choose not to (and if I work the hours they want, then I am always above the guarantee threshold). But if someone is working the guarantees then it makes sense to track the GROSS revenue, if that's what Uber is basing the guarantee on. Again - good point.


----------



## UberHammer

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Interesting point - but how do Uber's guarantees 'inlcude' any SRF fees?
> 
> If I am online for 1 hour during a $20 guarantee period, and my 'gross' fares for that hour are two trips at $5 ea, Uber pays me:
> $10, less $2 in SRFs, less 20%
> - and then I receive $10 in guarantee under misc. for the difference between the $10 in fares and the $20 guarantee.
> 
> So what does the guarantee/misc revenue have to do with the SRFs?


If you are working a $20 guarantee, you do not get 80% of it. 80% of it would be $16.

If you do one minimum fare to qualify for it, your gross fares per hour are $4. So your guarantee is $20 minus $4, minus Uber's 20% cut. That's $12.80 that shows up as MISC in the payout. You then get your part of the fare you took. A $4 fare pays you $2.40.

$12.80 plus $2.40 = $15.20.

Now, if you did four $4 fares that hour, your gross fares per hour are $16. So your guarantee is $20 minus $16, minus Uber's 20% cut. That's $3.20 that shows up as MISC in the payout. You then get your part of the fare you took. Four $4 fares pays you $9.60.

$3.20 plus $9.60 = $12.80.

So despite Uber guaranteeing you $20 an hour, your net gets lower the more trips you make during that hour. This is because Uber subtracts the gross fare, including the SRF, from the guarantee amount, before giving you 80% of the remainder.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> Uber only falls in that category for drivers who did $20,000 or more in fares.


Yes - correct - the 1099K requirement threshold for 3rd party payors is $20,000 (and 200 transactions) and the requirement for credit cards is 100% (all transactions).


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> If you are working a $20 guarantee, you do not get 80% of it. 80% of it would be $16.
> If you do one minimum fare to qualify for it, your gross fares per hour are $4. So your guarantee is $20 minus $4, minus Uber's 20% cut. That's $12.80 that shows up as MISC in the payout. You then get your part of the fare you took. A $4 fare pays you $2.40.
> $12.80 plus $2.40 = $15.20.
> Now, if you did four $4 fares that hour, your gross fares per hour are $16. So your guarantee is $20 minus $16, minus Uber's 20% cut. That's $3.20 that shows up as MISC in the payout. You then get your part of the fare you took. Four $4 fares pays you $9.60.
> $3.20 plus $9.60 = $12.80. So despite Uber guaranteeing you $20 an hour, your net gets lower the more trips you make during that hour. This is because Uber subtracts the gross fare, including the SRF, from the guarantee amount, before giving you 80% of the remainder.


Glad I don't work the guarantees anymore. (fwiw: in my region, to qualify for a guarantee period of $20 or more, drivers must have a min of 2 trips/hr)


----------



## Actionjax

UberHammer said:


> If you are working a $20 guarantee, you do not get 80% of it. 80% of it would be $16.
> 
> If you do one minimum fare to qualify for it, your gross fares per hour are $4. So your guarantee is $20 minus $4, minus Uber's 20% cut. That's $12.80 that shows up as MISC in the payout. You then get your part of the fare you took. A $4 fare pays you $2.40.
> 
> $12.80 plus $2.40 = $15.20.
> 
> Now, if you did four $4 fares that hour, your gross fares per hour are $16. So your guarantee is $20 minus $16, minus Uber's 20% cut. That's $3.20 that shows up as MISC in the payout. You then get your part of the fare you took. Four $4 fares pays you $9.60.
> 
> $3.20 plus $9.60 = $12.80.
> 
> So despite Uber guaranteeing you $20 an hour, your net gets lower the more trips you make during that hour. This is because Uber subtracts the gross fare, including the SRF, from the guarantee amount, before giving you 80% of the remainder.


If you are getting 4 $4 fates in an hour your area has no hope to make money. I don't think I have ever had 4 minimums in the same hour. If I get more than two fares kiss the guarantee goodbye.


----------



## UberHammer

Actionjax said:


> If you are getting 4 $4 fates in an hour your area has no hope to make money. I don't think I have ever had 4 minimums in the same hour. If I get more than two fares kiss the guarantee goodbye.


I only used it as an example to illustrate more trips per our results in a lower net to the driver because Uber considers the SRF to be part of the gross fare.

In my opinion, considering the SRF as part of the gross fare is the new norm for Uber. It started with these new guarantees two months ago, but will continue.

I predict eventually they will announce they are getting rid of calling it such, but it will still exist. The $1 will be morphed into the base fare and Uber's commission structure will be "first $1 of every fare plus 20% of the rest". The change will be a wash to the driver, so there won't be any backlash.

If however, back when they introduced the SRF they instead said they were changing the Uber commission to "first $1 of every fare plus 20% of the rest", there would have been a huge revolt of drivers. Uber is pretty sneaky to accomplish the same by calling it the SRF for a year or two first. Little to no driver backlash will occur this way. I gotta give them credit for pulling this one off.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Actionjax said:


> If you are getting 4 $4 fates in an hour your area has no hope to make money. I don't think I have ever had 4 minimums in the same hour. If I get more than two fares kiss the guarantee goodbye.


You rpoint is well taken (and what I find, too vis-vis the 4 trips execceds the guarantee)...
but Uberhammer was just using that as an example for the math.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

UberHammer said:


> I predict eventually they will announce they are getting rid of calling it such, but it will still exist. The $1 will be morphed into the base fare and Uber's commission structure will be "first $1 of every fare plus 20% of the rest". The change will be a wash to the driver, so there won't be any backlash.


Interesting opinion, but I don't see it happening. The SRF is the amount we charge our customer and pay Uber (and Lyft has its own version) that Uber attributes to background check and insurance expenses of their own... it's set up that way, I suspect, for tax purposes.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Bart McCoy said:


> So you still skirting the question
> 
> Can you just admit you are wrong about what Uber reports to The IRS? Because clearly you don't want to post a 1099K to back that up I see


Are you 'slow', an egotist or just a troll?


Michael - Cleveland said:


> yeah - that was a f-u... and I corrected it and explained it was gross - and that the SRFs, Fees, etc. are reported to the driver, clearly, in their pay statements.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Are you 'slow', an egotist or just a troll?


No I just missed it in the long stream of mis-information you been spewing in this topic.

Proceed....


----------



## Actionjax

Bart McCoy said:


> So you still skirting the question
> 
> Can you just admit you are wrong about what Uber reports to The IRS? Because clearly you don't want to post a 1099K to back that up I see


Bart do you not have a 1099K of your own. Look at it and tell us what you see. Because you are coming off a bit condescending.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Bart McCoy said:


> No I just missed it in the long stream of mis-information you been spewing in this topic.
> 
> Proceed....


Understood... It"s easy to miss stuff when you're more tied up with ranting or an agenda than sharing information. Hate to admit it... I've done it, too.


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## Michael - Cleveland

yeah - right... I'm sure you'll keep telling yourself that.


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## UberTaxPro

If I had one of these for Uberx I could make a little money http://www.eliomotors.com/


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## Michael - Cleveland

UberTaxPro said:


> If I had one of these for Uberx I could make a little money http://www.eliomotors.com/


*How?* (it's a 2-door 1/2 seat car that gets 49mpg/city and can't qualify as an Uber or Lyft car? -
It gets about the same city/mileage as the 2015 Prius & Accord hybrids.)


----------



## UberTaxPro

Michael - Cleveland said:


> *How?* (it's a 2-door 1/2 seat car that gets 49mpg/city and can't qualify as an Uber or Lyft car? -
> It gets about the same city/mileage as the 2015 Prius & Accord hybrids.)


uber will have to change the rules...its actually classified as a motorcycle in most states. Doesn't Uber have uber motorcycle service somewhere in the world? Your right about the Prius's and hybrids but this is a lot cheaper.


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## Michael - Cleveland

UberTaxPro said:


> uber will have to change the rules...its actually classified as a motorcycle in most states. Doesn't Uber have uber motorcycle service somewhere in the world? Your right about the Prius's and hybrids but this is a lot cheaper.


don't know about you, but more than 50% (a lot more) are for >1 pax.


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## UberTaxPro

Michael - Cleveland said:


> don't know about you, but more than 50% (a lot more) are for >1 pax.


you're right...I'm just dreaming about 84mpg. The car/motorcycle thing has one seat behind the driver....maybe they'll come out with one that has more seats behind the driver in a row. Right now I'm ubering with a mercury marquis that is in great shape and very comfortable but sucks the gas big time. I also have to drive 40 miles to get to a city where anyone uses uber so I've got 80 miles (round trip) dead head every day


----------



## Uberdawg

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Are you 'slow', an egotist or just a troll?


You forgot "D" All of the Above".


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

UberTaxPro said:


> you're right...I'm just dreaming about 84mpg. The car/motorcycle thing has one seat behind the driver....maybe they'll come out with one that has more seats behind the driver in a row. Right now I'm ubering with a mercury marquis that is in great shape and very comfortable but sucks the gas big time. I also have to drive 40 miles to get to a city where anyone uses uber so I've got 80 miles (round trip) dead head every day


yeah... unpaid (dead) miles make it impossible to squeeze even a meager profit out of driving rideshare at these rates.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Uberdawg said:


> You forgot "D" All of the Above".


hehe... nope: life is full of tough choices


----------



## johnywinslow

if not for guarantee pay, I would not drive at current rates! if they take our guarantee with out raising rates, ill simply stop driving regular and keep my ap for spcl events that pay well, made 600.00 SB weekend, though I made more with phoenix open then the SB. we get .90 a mile .16 a min. 1.00 start up. here. gas prices have surged up almost a dollar from their low. the combo makes being an uber driver impossible in my world. but as of now, I play the guarantee game and do pretty good!


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## Michael - Cleveland

I won't play the guarantees game. It requires a 90% acceptance rate and I've learned that accepting unprofitable [or otherwise bad] rides is a losing proposition. In my city, accepting all pings would mean driving more miles to get to the PAX than the actual fare. Driving more unpaid miles than paid miles is a 100% guarantee that you will lose money driving rideshare.


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## Jessica R

I never play the gaurentee game! I actually play the complete opposite game. Staying logged on with the late late night early mornings means far pings. I play the "if the surge is online, so am I!" I sit in my house and when the surge comes on I go on and wait for ride.


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## cab591

Old thread, I know -- but thought I'd throw in some info. After reading through this thread, I figured I'd register.

Background: don't drive for Uber (yet), and I've been over-researching potential earnings, how everything is taxed / recorded, etc, etc, etc.

Now then, at the risk of being banned for reviving the flame war, a quick note about accounting (one user already mentioned this, but I believe it's important information):

*Accounting Methods*

There's two main methods of accounting, cash and accrual. In cash-based accounting (which is commonly used in small businesses), expenses and revenues aren't logged until cash is actually received. In basic terms, this is the "how much money is in my bank account" method. In accrual accounting, expenses are logged early. While neither method is "right" or "wrong", accrual accounting does offer a better projection of how your future will look (because you'll have already accounted for future expenses).

*Depreciation of Assets*

When it comes to the depreciation of an asset (as with the value of a car), it's an important metric to count. Without accounting for depreciation, you're essentially leaving money on the table.

In one user's example, he claimed his $30,000 vehicle purchase was irrelevant, because the money was already spent, and keeping the vehicle indefinitely makes calculating depreciation a worthless pursuit. However, what this fails to realize is that you've essentially ALREADY calculated the depreciation by accepting the fact that you've already spent the $30,000. In other words, you've accepted the full value of the vehicle at $30,000 up front. Now, here's why you should calculate depreciation, regardless of plans to keep or sell the vehicle -- let's say the vehicle has lost 33% of its value since you've purchased it, and is now only worth $20,000. This means, if you were to sell the vehicle today, you would have effectively only spent $10,000 on the vehicle (purchase price minus depreciation). Now, because you're registered as an independent contractor, and the cost to operate your vehicle is a business expense, this depreciation can be deducted as an expense incurred by your business. So let's say you purchased the vehicle brand new at the beginning of the year, and at the end of the year the assessed value is $20,000, you now have a business expense of $10,000 that's deductible from your taxable income (gross profit, after expenses). Without calculating your year-to-year deprecation and declaring it on your taxes, you are effectively paying taxes on income you didn't "make".

The same user gave an example of home ownership. If a home was purchased at $20,000, and is now valued at $2,000,000, does this make you a millionaire? When calculating the total value of your assets, yes. Because if you were to liquidate all physical assets, you would have that money (minus real estate fees, taxes, etc). If you declared bankruptcy, the IRS doesn't just look at how much is in your bank account -- they look at the total value of all of your assets. Going back to the car example, they would look at the current value of your car (which would account for depreciation).

*Completing a 1099k*

As far as the 1099k, it's interesting to see how Uber levies their fee and commission. While most people probably skip it, you DO need to include those in your tax forms (even if it's a total wash on your end, as it's both a revenue and an expense). This is the basics of account reconciliation. There's essentially two accounts the IRS is looking at -- the numbers you're providing, and the numbers Uber is providing. Everything has to balance between the two. So let's look at a few examples:

Let's say you made $1000 off of all Uber trips. Uber took $200 of this (I'm making numbers simple, for sake of the example). This means your gross pay is $800.

Situation 1) You tell the IRS you made $1000, as that is the total income reported on your pay stub. In this situation, you get taxed on the full $1000. Uber gets taxed on the $200 they made off of you. You get overtaxed, and the IRS is left $200 short.

Situation 2) You tell the IRS you made $800. Uber tells the IRS they made $200 off you. In this situation, the IRS taxes you on the $800, and Uber gets taxed on the $200. Everything is happy, right? No -- because the IRS expects to see expenses on your end, but nothing was declared. If they were to audit both you and Uber, it looks like Uber made the $200 out of thin air.

Situation 3) You tell the IRS you made $1000 driving, but with operating expenses of $200, leaving a net income of $800. Uber tells the IRS they made $200 off you. You get taxed on your income ($800), and Uber gets taxed on theirs ($200). There's a nice happy line of dots that can be connected, showing that you made the $200, and paid it to Uber. All money gets taxed at the end of the line. Everyone is happy.

*Taxing Your Vehicle Expenses*

Now, on the $0.575 / mile standard deduction -- this is the standard, nation-wide average. The IRS has a bunch of accountants that sit down each year, look at everybody's declared expenses, look up national trends, fuel price averages, etc, and they figure out a baseline average. This is like saying the average cost of fuel in the US is $2.40. Your local station might be $2.00, or it could be $2.80. But the national average is $2.40. How does this effect you? There's a few different options.

Situation 1) Be lazy. Don't track any of your vehicle expenses (fuel, maintenance, purchase/depreciation, etc). Claim the allowed standard deduction of $0.575 / mile, because that's what it's there for. Did you spend $0.575 / mile? Maybe. More than likely, though, you spent more or less. This is the "easy" option that requires less work on your part -- but you risk the chance of paying too high or too low taxes on vehicle expenses. That just comes with the territory of taking the standard deduction.

Situation 2) Track all your expenses, and calculate your per mile expense. There's plenty of excel templates that'll do all the math for you -- you just have to fill in things like fuel, maintenance, and calculate the depreciation (just jump on KBB and spend 30 seconds a year). This method has two outcomes --

Outcome a) Your expenses are lower than the standard deduction. Congrats, you spent less than the national average to keep your car moving down the road! Now claim the full $0.575 / mile. Because your operating costs were lower, if you claimed your actual costs on your taxes, you would be taxed higher (because your expenses were lower, your gross income was higher). Now, some people find this to be immoral, because you're claiming expenses higher than what you actually had, and effectively lying to the IRS about your gross income. While this may be true, you are legally allowed to take the standard deduction -- whether or not you do is up to you.

Outcome b) Your expenses are higher than the standard deduction. You should probably find a way to lower your expenses (nobody likes spending money to make money). However, be sure to declare your actual expenses on your taxes. This will require a bit more work, because the IRS may want to see proof. However, if your expenses are higher, your gross income is lower. Money is taxed at the end of the line -- meaning that $1,000 you spent at the mechanic is going to be taxed when the mechanic files their taxes. By shorting yourself on expenses, you're letting the IRS tax you on money you didn't net.

*Conclusion*

Sorry about the novel for my first post, but I figure this information can be put to good use. File your taxes correctly, and track all vehicle expenses to make sure you're getting taxed accurately (or just accept the standard deduction, and the inherent risk that comes with it).


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Nice, novel. Its really so much simpler than that. No idea how you can suggest a positive ($7/hr) "profit". First off, I dont think $1/mile exits anymore, we're at 30 cents! Even if it did, its still a loss. No need for all the accounting methods and "tax treatments" when its a loser to begin with dummy.
Its really this simple:
$1/mile = $.80 after uber cut, = $.40 after 50% dead miles, - $.575/mile expenses = (LOSS) -$.175/mile! = $LOSS/hour!
Ok, if your true expenses are only $.35/mile, you make a nickel/mile, and maybe 50cents/hour, sure hope you're having fun doing it! Nobody should even consider driving at less than $2/mile, yet here in Detroit there are still tons of crack addicts out there driving and losing at 30cents/mile! Wake up people, STOP THE INSANITY, all Uber drivers lose money at these rates!


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## cab591

At the $0.30 rate, I totally agree -- the math doesn't add up. Here in Phoenix we're still at a base rate of $0.90 / mile, and it surges pretty regularly. I'm under a mile from downtown Tempe (big bar district and a couple of venues) where there's sometimes multiple surges a day. Working the market while surging, and keeping vehicle costs as low as possible (i.e. buying a used hybrid), I think one could still turn profit here in Phoenix. It wouldn't be great, but it beats $0.30 / mile. 

As I said, I'm not driving yet -- Running the numbers to determine if I should (and I'll be making a post in another subforum later today running those numbers). I certainly feel for people who on-boarded at the high rates, quitting day jobs and going full time, only to get hit with price cuts. For me, personally, driving would be more of a supplemental income, and a way to kill time. I'm already contemplating trading my current car for something cheaper to operate. If I could pocket a couple hundred dollars by driving drunks home from the bars, or people to the airport? Sounds good to me.


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## scrurbscrud

cab591 said:


> At the $0.30 rate, I totally agree -- the math doesn't add up. Here in Phoenix we're still at a base rate of $0.90 / mile, and it surges pretty regularly. I'm under a mile from downtown Tempe (big bar district and a couple of venues) where there's sometimes multiple surges a day. Working the market while surging, and keeping vehicle costs as low as possible (i.e. buying a used hybrid), I think one could still turn profit here in Phoenix.


IF you only drove surge, yeah. Might not get too many actual fares, but yes, technically when you live in or close to a surge area and only drive surge you could technically make "a taxable profit." In reality though the drivers who've tried it eventually give up cause when there is surge the drivers who are on the street get to the biz first.
*
But as for making a taxable profit at 9o cents a mile? Uh, no. It's not going to happen.*

Any driver who's done the deal for more than a day or 2 will honestly tell you that drivers put on 1 unpaid mile for every mile they get paid on. And that cuts the pay effectively in half and below the IRS mileage allowance, so making a taxable profit isn't going to happen at that rate.



> As I said, I'm not driving yet -- Running the numbers to determine if I should (and I'll be making a post in another subforum later today running those numbers). I certainly feel for people who on-boarded at the high rates, quitting day jobs and going full time, only to get hit with price cuts.* For me, personally, driving would be - a way to kill time. *


That's going to be the extent of it. There is no "make" to "make."


----------



## scrurbscrud

Bart McCoy said:


> agreed. I argued this same point on the forum with a driver in Detroit. He does lyft though, which is more than 30 cents but pays 70 cents. He says he makes " good money".I said impossible if he does real math. Best scenario, 0 dead miles all year, he may profit 1 cent per mile


Detroit reality says drivers are working the spread between hard gas costs at 6-8 cents a mile and *their actual net per overall mile which is 12 cents. *Plus they get $18 an hour, but again, in real paid time for actually driving it's about 1/3 of the time on the road, so, $6 an hour for the best drivers. Those who are slower to figure out how to get biz are much much lower.

So, for the best drivers it's about 6 cents mile and $6 an hour.

That's Detroit UberX reality, with a smattering of surge from time to time just to keep them in the Oh!-zone and stay on the road.

As far as an actual taxable profit or taxable wage though? Uh, no. It's exactly less than ZERO.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

scrurbscrud said:


> *But as for making a taxable profit at 9o cents a mile? Uh, no. It's not going to happen.*


You just can't make a blanket statement like that... everyone's costs and situation are different.


----------



## scrurbscrud

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You just can't make a blanket statement like that... everyone's costs and situation are different.


Uh, no. It's not happening. Whatever the drivers costs are.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

scrurbscrud said:


> Uh, no. It's not happening. Whatever the drivers costs are.


As I said - you can't speak for me. I absolutely agree that's true for most drivers. 
But it's not for me.


----------



## scrurbscrud

Michael - Cleveland said:


> As I said - you can't speak for me. I absolutely agree that's true for most drivers.
> But it's not for me.


Not in the mood for entertaining zero dead mile hero's.

The math sez there is zero TAXABLE profit or taxable wage at 90 cents a paid mile. I don't care what your (or any other driver's costs are.) The only way to make that claim is to claim being a zero dead mile hero, which nobody here that drives is going to take credibly. *IF a driver had ZERO dead miles, which is virtually a LIE, they would "make" 14.5 cents a mile taxable in 2015. *So there is the dead mile hero claim "profit." And a sprinkle of hourly/drop might push it ever so slightly higher.

There simply is NONE in reality and that's all there is to it.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

scrurbscrud said:


> Not in the mood for entertaining zero dead mile hero's.
> 
> The math sez there is zero TAXABLE profit or taxable wage at 90 cents a paid mile. I don't care what your (or any other driver's costs are.) The only way to make that claim is to claim being a zero dead mile hero, which nobody here that drives is going to take credibly. *IF a driver had ZERO dead miles, which is virtually a LIE, they would "make" 14.5 cents a mile taxable in 2015. *So there is the dead mile hero claim "profit." And a sprinkle of hourly/drop might push it ever so slightly higher.
> 
> There simply is NONE in reality and that's all there is to it.


All of my calculations and examples posted here are based on a minimum of 1:2 ratio of paid to driven miles.
Everyone's circumstance, cost, revenues and expenses are unique.
To suggest otherwise is just not true.


----------



## scrurbscrud

Michael - Cleveland said:


> All of my calculations and examples posted here are based on a minimum of 1:2 ratio of paid to driven miles.
> Everyone's circumstance, cost, revenues and expenses are unique.
> To suggest otherwise is just not true.


Using your calcs at 90 cents a mile there is still no taxable profit or taxable wage.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

scrurbscrud said:


> Using your calcs at 90 cents a mile there is still no taxable profit or taxable wage.


I don't care about taxable profit - I care about after-tax profit.
I've said it repeatedly: These are my numbers - and how I look at my earnings.
Everyone should run their own numbers.
And don't make the mistake that so many people do here by using only the mileage rate.
That's not reflective of your earnings. (first, becuase it doesn't account for Uber fees and second, becuase we don't just get paid mileage, we also get base and time).

The ONLY way to determine your earnings per mile driven or earnings per mile paid is to take you total earnings over a period of time (a week - a month - a year) and divide that by the total miles driven and the paid miles driven.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

cab591 said:


> At the $0.30 rate, I totally agree -- the math doesn't add up. Here in Phoenix we're still at a base rate of $0.90 / mile, and it surges pretty regularly. I'm under a mile from downtown Tempe (big bar district and a couple of venues) where there's sometimes multiple surges a day. Working the market while surging, and keeping vehicle costs as low as possible (i.e. buying a used hybrid), I think one could still turn profit here in Phoenix. It wouldn't be great, but it beats $0.30 / mile.
> 
> As I said, I'm not driving yet -- Running the numbers to determine if I should (and I'll be making a post in another subforum later today running those numbers). I certainly feel for people who on-boarded at the high rates, quitting day jobs and going full time, only to get hit with price cuts. For me, personally, driving would be more of a supplemental income, and a way to kill time. I'm already contemplating trading my current car for something cheaper to operate. If I could pocket a couple hundred dollars by driving drunks home from the bars, or people to the airport? Sounds good to me.


Ok, the surge thing might save you. BUT, please dont make the decision to get in or buy a different car based on your (currently very high) $.90/mile rate. I guarantee that will be dropped to $.50 or LOWER very SOON! Also, it just kills me when pax complain about 2x surge at these rediculous rates. Base rates were $2.30/mile in the beggining, that equals an 8x surge at todays new rates in Detroit! YES ... thats a staggering 87% PAY CUT FOR DRIVERS !!!!


----------



## scrurbscrud

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I don't care about taxable profit - I care about after-tax profit.



There is neither, technically speaking. Working the spread between gas cost and net pay is not profit in any legitimate accounting sense of the term.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

scrurbscrud said:


> ​
> There is neither, technically speaking. Working the spread between gas cost and net pay is not profit in any legitimate accounting sense of the term.


Yeah... my balance sheet is mythical.
Whatever.


----------



## scrurbscrud

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Yeah... my balance sheet is mythical.
> Whatever.


It is not profit in the sense of actually being profit, no. Nor is there a wage.

Drivers work the spread between hard costs and what they net, but that isn't profit or wage.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

scrurbscrud said:


> It is not profit in the sense of actually being profit, no. Nor is there a wage.
> 
> Drivers work the spread between hard costs and what they net, but that isn't profit or wage.


Right, their car is free ... "I already had a car". Travis's perfect idiot. "Oh look honey ... Another I aint got no costs but gas guy"! I guarantee Uber rates will not go back up when gas goes back to $4, and it will!


----------



## Actionjax

While the rate I agree suck in most of the US cities I will agree that everyone's numbers can be different. While people are using the IRS per mile tax numbers they are not true costs. Hell gas in the US is in some places more than half of what it is when we had this debate on that number a year ago. So you can't say that's the same rate. Also considered that other costs in your car have not been inflated from a year ago.

Also the 1:2 ratio can not be a blanket statement. I consistently in my market sit around 1:4 - 1:3 dead to paid. It will depend on your habits and the city.

Surge can also be a factor as well as base rate.

The philosophy you guys are talking on is the same, it's the variables that will make the difference between market and your individual costs.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

scrurbscrud said:


> It is not profit in the sense of actually being profit, no. Nor is there a wage.
> Drivers work the spread between hard costs and what they net, but that isn't profit or wage.


I've never said the word 'wage' - and if you've read my posts, you know I only look at earnings from an ROI perspective - not an hourly wage basis (that's just me).
Think, believe and do whatever you want.
I know how to figure my own profit and loss.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I've never said the word 'wage' - and if you've read my posts, you know I only look at earnings froman ROI perspective - not an hourly wage basis (that's just me).
> Think, belive and do whatever you want.
> I know how to figure my own profit and loss.


Right, your car is free ... "I already had a car". Travis's perfect idiot. "Oh look honey ... Another I aint got no costs but gas guy"! I guarantee Uber rates will not go back up when gas goes back to $4, and it will!


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## Bill Collector

Talking about dead miles, one time I drove 30 miles during non-surgery time! Also no tip!


----------



## cab591

As the costs per mile seem to be a big contingency on whether or not one makes profit, I looked up how the IRS calculates their annual rate. Unfortunately my post count isn't high enough to post URL links, but here's what I found:

When deducting mileage, you are required to use the standard deduction rate for the first year you file. All following years, you can deduct actual expenses. Failure to do so can bar you from using the standard rate in the future. As well, there's two ways to factor for depreciation in terms of taxation. There's the "straight line depreciation" formula, and the traditional formula. Realistically, your car depreciates the quickest when it's new, and depreciation slows as the car ages. However, when using the standard deduction, you're actually supposed to use the straight line depreciation formula. If you use the accelerated (realistic) method, you cannot switch to the straight line later on.

source: mileiq, 2015-mileage-rate (google that, you'll find the site)

While the IRS's mileage rate formula is a guarded secret (for some reason), I found a few relevant links.

Here is a cost per mile calculator that seems pretty straightforward: smarttrips, CostCalculator (again, google it, you'll find the link)

Using that site, and putting in my own vehicle information (using my numbers for the past year in terms of annual depreciation (KBB value last year vs KBB now), mileage, economy, maintenance (still under warranty, so this is $0 for me), etc, my current vehicle calculates to *$0.35 / mile*. Far below the national standard. Plugging in some numbers reflecting a gently used (3-5 year old) hybrid, and owning it for one year with my same commute calculated to *$0.28 / mile*. (current annual mileage is 17,500, fuel is $2.00 / gallon at an average of 48mpg (fuelly), maintenance costs pulled from Edmond's 5 year cost of ownership for a 2012 Prius, divided by 5, Insurance / registration derived from personal quotes / experience, and depreciation calculated via cost of a 2012 Prius on private market versus 2011 Prius, rounded to the nearest thousand).

Now, looking again at the per mile rate in the Phoenix area, after Uber's cut drivers would make $0.72 per mile driven. Of that, $0.35 would go to vehicle expenses for my own personal car (which doesn't qualify for Uber, unfortunately), or $0.28 for a gently used Hybrid. This means the net profit would be somewhere around $0.37 - 0.44 / mile, respectively. Not great money, but better than some estimates here. When one factors in the drop fee, minimum fare, cancellation fees, and surge pricing, the average cost per mile will steadily rise from there.

I'm sure someone on this forum has a detailed log of their own personal expenses (to include insurance, depreciation, fuel, maintenance, etc), and could chime in. I'd love to know if my estimate is accurate.

EDIT:

I also found a nifty chart here: companymileage, howmileageratedetermined (google it)

While I can't vouch for the source of their numbers, the concept is pretty straightforward. Their calculations for an average mid-sized sedan worked out to be around the national average, while a small economy car came up under, and a large SUV came up higher. This is where purchasing the right vehicle comes in handy. The goal is to find something that has already had the majority of its depreciation, but is at a point where it will not depreciate very quickly anymore. Something low maintenance, high MPG, and spacious / nice enough for PAX. All while conforming to Uber's age rules. It's difficult, but I can see the draw to used hybrids. Most have already taken the heavy hit of depreciation (a 2 year old Prius out here, that retailed near $30k brand new, can be found for $15k all day long), they're fairly reliable, very economical, and big enough for passengers and luggage. Minivans also hit that magical point -- with some retailing near $40k, prices tank after the first few years of ownership. A secondhand van can be had for $15-20k in reasonable condition, but has higher operating costs (MPG, maintenance).


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

cab591 said:


> As the costs per mile seem to be a big contingency on whether or not one makes profit, I looked up how the IRS calculates their annual rate. Unfortunately my post count isn't high enough to post URL links, but here's what I found:
> 
> When deducting mileage, you are required to use the standard deduction rate for the first year you file. All following years, you can deduct actual expenses. Failure to do so can bar you from using the standard rate in the future. As well, there's two ways to factor for depreciation in terms of taxation. There's the "straight line depreciation" formula, and the traditional formula. Realistically, your car depreciates the quickest when it's new, and depreciation slows as the car ages. However, when using the standard deduction, you're actually supposed to use the straight line depreciation formula. If you use the accelerated (realistic) method, you cannot switch to the straight line later on.
> 
> source: mileiq, 2015-mileage-rate (google that, you'll find the site)
> 
> While the IRS's mileage rate formula is a guarded secret (for some reason), I found a few relevant links.
> 
> Here is a cost per mile calculator that seems pretty straightforward: smarttrips, CostCalculator (again, google it, you'll find the link)
> 
> Using that site, and putting in my own vehicle information (using my numbers for the past year in terms of annual depreciation (KBB value last year vs KBB now), mileage, economy, maintenance (still under warranty, so this is $0 for me), etc, my current vehicle calculates to *$0.35 / mile*. Far below the national standard. Plugging in some numbers reflecting a gently used (3-5 year old) hybrid, and owning it for one year with my same commute calculated to *$0.28 / mile*. (current annual mileage is 17,500, fuel is $2.00 / gallon at an average of 48mpg (fuelly), maintenance costs pulled from Edmond's 5 year cost of ownership for a 2012 Prius, divided by 5, Insurance / registration derived from personal quotes / experience, and depreciation calculated via cost of a 2012 Prius on private market versus 2011 Prius, rounded to the nearest thousand).
> 
> Now, looking again at the per mile rate in the Phoenix area, after Uber's cut drivers would make $0.72 per mile driven. Of that, $0.35 would go to vehicle expenses for my own personal car (which doesn't qualify for Uber, unfortunately), or $0.28 for a gently used Hybrid. This means the net profit would be somewhere around $0.37 - 0.44 / mile, respectively. Not great money, but better than some estimates here. When one factors in the drop fee, minimum fare, cancellation fees, and surge pricing, the average cost per mile will steadily rise from there.
> 
> I'm sure someone on this forum has a detailed log of their own personal expenses (to include insurance, depreciation, fuel, maintenance, etc), and could chime in. I'd love to know if my estimate is accurate.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> I also found a nifty chart here: companymileage, howmileageratedetermined (google it)
> 
> While I can't vouch for the source of their numbers, the concept is pretty straightforward. Their calculations for an average mid-sized sedan worked out to be around the national average, while a small economy car came up under, and a large SUV came up higher. This is where purchasing the right vehicle comes in handy. The goal is to find something that has already had the majority of its depreciation, but is at a point where it will not depreciate very quickly anymore. Something low maintenance, high MPG, and spacious / nice enough for PAX. All while conforming to Uber's age rules. It's difficult, but I can see the draw to used hybrids. Most have already taken the heavy hit of depreciation (a 2 year old Prius out here, that retailed near $30k brand new, can be found for $15k all day long), they're fairly reliable, very economical, and big enough for passengers and luggage. Minivans also hit that magical point -- with some retailing near $40k, prices tank after the first few years of ownership. A secondhand van can be had for $15-20k in reasonable condition, but has higher operating costs (MPG, maintenance).


You completely ignored "dead miles" (unpaid/off meter) which run around 50% on a typical uber shift. So, the driver grosses $.36/mile after uber cut, and NETS NOTHING!


----------



## Actionjax

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> You completely ignored "dead miles" (unpaid/off meter) which run around 50% on a typical uber shift. So, the driver grosses $.36/mile after uber cut, and NETS NOTHING!


Dead miles are not the same in every market. Dead miles can vary by city and individual. I haven't seen anything typical about it.


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## cab591

Ah, I did forget dead miles. 

Using another calculator I found (this one brought to you by Mr. Money Mustache -- just look up "mustachecalc"), the same Prius example came down to $0.21 / mile. Assuming 50/50 on mileage, this means you're basically spending $0.42 / billable mile, gaining $0.30 profit for every mile. And again, this is ignoring drop fees, cancellation fees, surges, etc.


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

cab591 said:


> Ah, I did forget dead miles.
> 
> Using another calculator I found (this one brought to you by Mr. Money Mustache -- just look up "mustachecalc"), the same Prius example came down to $0.21 / mile. Assuming 50/50 on mileage, this means you're basically spending $0.42 / billable mile, gaining $0.30 profit for every mile. And again, this is ignoring drop fees, cancellation fees, surges, etc.


Nobody wants to ride in a 2005 Prius shit box! This is what a once good product has come all the way down to, only the biggest dummy in the shittiest car can still do this! Way to go Travis!


----------



## Uber SUCKS for drivers!

Actionjax said:


> Dead miles are not the same in every market. Dead miles can vary by city and individual. I haven't seen anything typical about it.


 Yes, I said "typically around". Yeah yeah, I know, you don't have any dead miles in downtown Toronto! That is a 1% scenario you are on a different planet!


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Uber SUCKS for drivers! said:


> Right, your car is free ... "I already had a car". Travis's perfect idiot. "Oh look honey ... Another I aint got no costs but gas guy"! I guarantee Uber rates will not go back up when gas goes back to $4, and it will!


Obviously you've never read any of my posts. If you can't express yourself here without being insulting... well, you are who you are. (and my earnings, revenues and expenses are my own)


----------



## cab591

And that's what it appears to come down to when you run the numbers. The only way to make decent money doing Uber is with a paid off hybrid that's already suffered the majority of its depreciation, while keeping inside Uber's regulations of age / mileage / quality. From what I've read, customers are sick and tired of getting picked up in a bog-standard Prius -- but want to pay less and less. Seems like a catch-22 -- you want to ride in a nice, new car? Drivers need to make enough to afford it. 

Still, these numbers are all looking at strictly Uber's per-mile rate. Lyft, for example, pays $0.95 / mile, which adds up to a slight profit over Uber. It seems like, in order to turn a profit with TNCs, you definitely need to drive for multiple services.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

cab591 said:


> And that's what it appears to come down to when you run the numbers. The only way to make decent money doing Uber is with a paid off hybrid that's already suffered the majority of its depreciation, while keeping inside Uber's regulations of age / mileage / quality. From what I've read, customers are sick and tired of getting picked up in a bog-standard Prius -- but want to pay less and less. Seems like a catch-22 -- you want to ride in a nice, new car? Drivers need to make enough to afford it.
> 
> Still, these numbers are all looking at strictly Uber's per-mile rate. Lyft, for example, pays $0.95 / mile, which adds up to a slight profit over Uber. It seems like, in order to turn a profit with TNCs, you definitely need to drive for multiple services.


There's truth in what you descibe - but it's not the only truth.
I drive a 2005 car for X that gets just as many compliments as my SELECT Mercedes. 








I paid $2,000 for it. There's nothing left to depreciate.
I make a profit driving it even at the Cleveland Fare of $1/$.012/$.077. 
This evening I drove a total of 52 miles over a couple of hours, got paid for 42 of them, used just over 2 gals of gas.
Obvisously you can't do this without some pretty careful planning... and you certainly can't do it with a financed car -or a new car.
But it can be done.


----------



## cab591

Michael - Cleveland said:


> There's truth in what you descibe - but it's not the only truth.
> I drive a 2005 car for X that gets just as many compliments as my SELECT Mercedes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I paid $2,000 for it. There's nothing left to depreciate.
> I make a profit driving it even at the Cleveland Fare of $1/$.012/$.077.


With the Kia? A lot of that also comes down to the market. Uber appears to be hush-hush about exact vehicle requirements per market, but not every market is 05+ (well, 06+ now). I've heard Phoenix is 2009 or newer, for example (although I can't find anything online, the Uber vehicles on the road around here reflect this). I know NYC and LA both have more strict age requirements, which makes saving money by buying something older out of the question.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

cab591 said:


> With the Kia? A lot of that also comes down to the market. Uber appears to be hush-hush about exact vehicle requirements per market, but not every market is 05+ (well, 06+ now). I've heard Phoenix is 2009 or newer, for example (although I can't find anything online, the Uber vehicles on the road around here reflect this). I know NYC and LA both have more strict age requirements, which makes saving money by buying something older out of the question.


I don't think they are hush-hush about it. The car requirements are right on the website for each city. Uber is a decentralized organization - The US is broken down into something like 7 Raiser and Uber operating companies, each with its own Operations Manager who gets to decicde things like what cars they'll allow, what qualifies for what levels of service - what services will be offered in that market, etc.

As cities and states are finally getting around to writing TNC legislation (with Uber's influence in many cases) some are incorporating requirements for the age of cars to be used for rideshare. That's a nod both to safety and to the taxi industry. I fUber had their way and their insurance company would allow it, I'm sure they'd let you a drive Model A (if you could find one with seatbelts and 4 doors). Just wait... UberAmish can't be too far off.

(and yes - a 2005 Amanti)


----------



## cab591

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Just wait... UberAmish can't be too far


Funny you say that -- with the Barrett Jackson auto auction going on in town, I was joking with some friends that Uber needs to announce "UberClassic". It'd obviously require through inspections, but imagine getting picked up in a '57 Bel Air or something. It'd pretty much only be viable in the Southwest, where we have tons of rust free, showroom condition classics.

And, I guess "hush hush" isn't the right phrase -- but they're definitely not forward about it. Now, it may just be because it's constantly changing, but the fact stands that if I want to know the exact qualifications for my market area, I need to contact them and wait for a reply (granted, I've heard they're pretty quick and up front once they do reply). I should be able to go to their site, and on the "drive for Uber" page should be able to look up current requirements for my city.

Back on topic, though, I'd love to see some spreadsheets of actual numbers. If I end up signing up, I plan on tracking every metric (regular rate, surge rate, miles driven, fees / drop charges, vehicle expenses, etc) in order to paint an accurate picture.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

cab591 said:


> Funny you say that -- with the Barrett Jackson auto auction going on in town, I was joking with some friends that Uber needs to announce "UberClassic".


I want Uber EXOTICS


> I should be able to go to their site, and on the "drive for Uber" page should be able to look up current requirements for my city.


In some markets you can do that. It's up to the Ops Manager.


> I plan on tracking every metric (regular rate, surge rate, miles driven, fees / drop charges, vehicle expenses, etc) in order to paint an accurate picture.


lol... yeah a lot of us start out that way. After about 6 weeks you realize you're olny duplicating all of the numbers that Uber provides you (and which can be automatically collected by SherpaShare or another driver's utility).


----------



## cab591

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I want Uber EXOTICS


Yes! Or, UberMotorcycle in Cali, where you can lane share/filter. Single PAX (obviously), and lane sharing through traffic. You'd accept all liability, obviously.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> In some markets you can do that. It's up to the Ops Manager. lol... yeah a lot of us start out that way. After about 6 weeks you realize you're olny duplicating all of the numbers that Uber provides you (and which can be automatically collected by SherpaShare or another driver's utility).


Good to know -- wasn't sure what metrics Uber already provides you with, asides from a simple payout. I know there's also several tracking apps /devices on the market. I just don't like leaving any valuable data behind.


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## CIncinnatiDriver

cab591 said:


> *If I end up signing up, *


My calculations, available by searching for my recent posts,
based on theoretical math (like yours) and also analyzing specific real-world shifts of mine.
*top out at $6/hour*, UberX, non-surge

Gross is my town is .80cents/mile (plus $1 to start + like 10 cents/minute)

*Dead head miles make it $3/hour. *

*Surge:*
When figuring out whether to drive,
*I suggest you look mostly at surge that is sustainable*

*Surge that requires deadhead miles means I mentally think of the trip as 
$3/hour x 2.1 = not worth my time*

conversely
if you ferry college drunks from within their zone during prime drinking hours,
you may go ping to ping with almost no dead-head miles and ALL surge.

*the point is:
If you drive, you should examine each shift before doing any actual driving.

Indeed you should TRY to examine each RIDE before actually doing the driving. *

Fun fact:
Uber has removed destination information from the waybill in my city.
You don't know the destination when you get the ping asking you to swipe to accept the ride,
and if you accept, it's not on the waybill>!

The only way to examine an individual ride to see if it's worth doing is to call the pax or to drive to them to figure it out.

Rumors are that Uber will boot you for acceptance rates that are too low
Other rumors are that you can ACRO (Accept ride --> Cancel ride --> Reason: Other) for months without penalty...

*Therefore, only count on Uber as a short term gig*
DON'T count on it long term
Supposedly, 55%(or similar) of new drivers drop out in first and third months

This is why I've stopped driving

lastly, when calculating net wages....you should really factor in:
- Time spent on uberpeople.net. It'll be more than you'd think, since Uber's rules change so often and there's SO MUCh to learn about: taxes, etc.
- Distance to first ping. Mostly because most jobs have two commutes per 8 hour shift. Whereas, many drivers do 4 hour shifts. You are doing more commuting than the average job (and more off-hours research time), so those shouls ALSO be factored in.

To re-iterate for emphasis:

Net profit *tops out at $6/hour*, UberX, non-surge

*Dead head miles make it $3/hour. *

CD


----------



## 14gIV

thanks goodness these expensive rates are gone...but the surgey is stills here so i still get pounded with some $high uber rides


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## cab591

Ok, playing with some numbers while bored at work last night. Here's a projection I determined:

Assumptions:
- usable service life of a Prius at 300k miles (yes, there's half-million mile examples. Bear with me)
- perform a majority of the maintenance myself

ITEM INTERVAL COST COST PER MILE
battery 150k $2500 $0.016
tires 75k $250 $0.003
misc 100k $600 $0.006

Fuel $2.20/gal, 48mpg $0.046
Depreciation
225k $6000 $0.026
Insurance
45k/yr $1080 $0.024

TOTAL: $0.121

Battery replacement price is based off Toyota's numbers ($2500 for a new pack, warranty of 150k miles). Tires based off Tirerack reviews for standard issue tires. Misc. includes miscellaneous maintenance items (brakes, oil changes, spark plugs, wipers, suspension components) at an average cost of $600 per 100k miles. Fuel is based on average pump price around Phoenix, divided by 48mpg. Depreciation is based off KBB value of a 2012 Prius at 75k miles compared to the value of a 2012 Prius at 300k miles, rounded to the nearest thousand (not an exact science, I know). Insurance is based off a personal quote, factored on an annual mileage of 45k / year. 

So, factoring for cost of fuel, insurance and depreciation (the three biggest factors of ownership), you can still shoot far below the national standard.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

CIncinnatiDriver said:


> Net profit *tops out at $6/hour*, UberX, non-surge


Love the post - you make a lot great points as well as some that differ from my own experience up here in Cleveland.
Don't you mean GROSS profit in that $6/hr figure - Profit BEFORE calculating the tax benefit of the std deduction allowance?
My own net profit, driving X non-surge at our rates of $1/$0.12/$0.77 is considerably higher than what you calculate - and the reality is that net profit varies widely - like Grand Canyon widely - from one driver to another with so many variables coming into play: MPG, deadhead miles, cost of the vehicle/depreciation, maintenance and repair costs... no two drivers are identical - and becuase the difference between high costs and low costs is so wide, the 'avg' cost is misleading. The truth is that in the same market, one driver can be profitable driving X - while another is losing money.

Which underscores the point you're making:
It is really important for drivers to understand all of their own, individual costs and expenses.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

cab591 said:


> Insurance 45k/yr $1080 $0.024


If this is a personal car that you own and drive and plan to use for rideshare, then your insurance cost should NOT be included as an expense becuase you will be paying that whether you drive rideshare or not. The only insurance expense (any expense, really) you should include in your rideshare esitimate of expenses are expesnes you incur above and beyond the expenses you would incur if you did not drive the car for rideshare. UberHammer (Columbus) has written the definitive blog post on this subject... which you can find in the blogs section here in the forum.


----------



## cab591

Michael - Cleveland said:


> If this is a personal car that you own and drive and plan to use for rideshare, then your insurance cost should NOT be included...


I'm calculating total cost of operating the vehicle per mile, regardless of if you drive for a TNC or not. The only thing that'll vary between driving for one or not is your annual mileage, which'll reflect a small difference in your insurance per mile driven (it'll actually go up, because it's a set annual expense and you would be driving fewer miles per year). Either way, costs aren't going to vary dramatically from there.

While there's an entire debate (and pending legislation) on TNC insurance, and how well you're covered by Uber, I'm running these numbers under the assumption that (like a majority of drivers) you'll maintain your personal policy.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

cab591 said:


> I'm calculating total cost of operating the vehicle per mile, regardless of if you drive for a TNC or not. The only thing that'll vary between driving for one or not is your annual mileage, which'll reflect a small difference in your insurance per mile driven (it'll actually go up, because it's a set annual expense and you would be driving fewer miles per year). Either way, costs aren't going to vary dramatically from there.


If all you're doing is trying to determine your car cost per mile in total... that works. 
If you're trying to determine what your business epxepenses are to know if you are making a profit, then what you are doing is not an accurate measure. You can do it the right way - or your way . Take it from one of the most experienced drivers on UP.net: @UberHammer https://uberpeople.net/xfa-blogs/uberhammer.5765/


----------



## cab591

Michael - Cleveland said:


> If all you're doing is trying to determine your car cost per mile in total... that works.
> If you're trying to determine what your business epxepenses are to know if you are making a profit, then what you are doing is not an accurate measure. You can do it the right way - or your way . Take it from one of the most experienced drivers ...


Fair enough. If you want to get into detail about calculating gross profit vs. gross expenses, you also need to break down things like the Delta depreciation (difference between regular depreciation in normal driving vs accelerated depreciation due to increase in mileage). Likewise with maintenance costs. That way you include just the difference in expenses caused by the additional mileage.


----------



## toi

You are calculating dead miles as if it was cab business.
uber has calls literally everywhere.so if one is ubering smart unless he is dragged out to a remote location instead of heading back with dead mile would stay to utilize his miles to come back with a fare and i know that is possible in most places.
i would say the dead miles would be %25 if done right.


----------



## cab591

True -- as others mentioned, minimizing dead miles is the best way to increase profitability. But worst case scenario, dead miles should be no more than 50/50 (i.e., let's say you strictly picked up from the airport and drove people home -- you would have exactly as many dead miles returning to the airport). When I calculate profitability, I like to be slightly pessimistic, to avoid over-calculating potential net profit (rather predict too low than too high for budget purposes). So, choosing routes carefully and managing your dead miles, you can probably get them down to 25% pretty easily -- but worst case should be no more than 50%. If you have more than 50% dead miles, you're failing at life and should probably reconsider your line of work. Worst case: park, shut down, and wait for a new fare (assuming your last drop didn't plant you in BFE). Dead time is better than the cost of dead miles (as dead miles is wear/tear/fuel plus dead time).


----------



## CIncinnatiDriver

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Love the post - you make a lot great points as well as some that differ from my own experience up here in Cleveland.
> Don't you mean GROSS profit in that $6/hr figure - Profit BEFORE calculating the tax benefit of the std deduction allowance?
> My own net profit, driving X non-surge at our rates of $1/$0.12/$0.77 is considerably higher than what you calculate - and the reality is that net profit varies widely - like Grand Canyon widely - from one driver to another with so many variables coming into play: MPG, deadhead miles, cost of the vehicle/depreciation, maintenance and repair costs... no two drivers are identical - and becuase the difference between high costs and low costs is so wide, the 'avg' cost is misleading. The truth is that in the same market, one driver can be profitable driving X - while another is losing money.
> 
> Which underscores the point you're making:
> It is really important for drivers to understand all of their own, individual costs and expenses.


Thanks, Michael. makes me feel good !

to your first point.
yes, I DO mean Profit before tax benefit of std deduction allowance.
So....how much IS this benefit, exactly? Assuming lowest income tax bracket....and anything else you want.
Just some range of likelynumbers (?)

re: >> My own net profit, driving X non-surge at our rates of $1/$0.12/$0.77 is considerably higher than what you calculate

Glad you're making more. *What is your estimate for your net profit?* Assume no deaad head miles and 1-3 minutes between pax. or wahtever your operation calculations allow for. I.e. realistic 'full' utilizaiton.

thx

let's continue this discussion. I feel we're getting somewhere

- CD


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

toi said:


> You are calculating dead miles as if it was cab business.
> uber has calls literally everywhere.so if one is ubering smart unless he is dragged out to a remote location instead of heading back with dead mile would stay to utilize his miles to come back with a fare and i know that is possible in most places.
> i would say the dead miles would be %25 if done right.


Try it. Let us know if in the real world you can get a 3:1 ratio of paid to dead miles.
I know I've done it... but it's not worth my time to drive that 'efficiently'.
It's just not what I can afford to do every time with the 4 hour block of time I have to drive when I go out after work in the evenings.

The vast majority of drivers
(outside of the top major market cities - NYC, BOS, SF, LA, HOU, CHI)
are going to see at least 1 unpaid mile for every paid mile.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

cab591 said:


> So, choosing routes carefully and managing your dead miles, you can probably get them down to 25% pretty easily


Not 'easily' - not on a regular basis... 
and extremely difficult to do in real world driving. 
A 4:1 paid-to-dead mile ratio is a pipe dream.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

CIncinnatiDriver said:


> Thanks, Michael. makes me feel good !
> 
> to your first point.
> yes, I DO mean Profit before tax benefit of std deduction allowance.
> So....how much IS this benefit, exactly? Assuming lowest income tax bracket....and anything else you want.
> Just some range of likelynumbers (?)
> 
> re: >> My own net profit, driving X non-surge at our rates of $1/$0.12/$0.77 is considerably higher than what you calculate
> 
> Glad you're making more. *What is your estimate for your net profit?* Assume no deaad head miles and 1-3 minutes between pax. or wahtever your operation calculations allow for. I.e. realistic 'full' utilizaiton.
> 
> thx
> 
> let's continue this discussion. I feel we're getting somewhere
> 
> - CD


While trying to figure per mile costs and per mile profits is fine...
the only real way to know your true expenses and earnings to take a large block of time - like six months or a year, total everything up and divide by a smaller block of time. How many miles did you driver over a year? Divide that by 52 and you have a very accurate number for miles per week. How much did you spend on gas, repairs, maintenance in a year? Divide that by 52 and you know your expenses per week.
How much did you earn in a year? Divide that by 52 and you've got your avg gross weekly earnings... subtract your avg weekly expenses and you've got your actual avg weekly net profit, before taxes.

Personally, I don't really care about my 'net profit per mile' - though I keep an eye on it.
I'm far more concerened with my expenses, earnings and profit as evaluated by the week, month and year.
I want to know my "ROI" - return on investment. It's just more meaningful to me...
other drivers prefer the per mile minutia - and others love to figure earnings per hour. I don't.

That's the 'cash register' accounting.
The tax accoutning is a separate animal...

All of the miles you drive, whether paid miles or 'dead' unpaid miles, are a business expense. In lieu of having to detail and claim individual expenses like oil, gas, insurance, and depreciation, the IRS allows you to claim a tax deduction that includes their estimate of all of those expenses based on the total business miles you drive. For 2016 that deduction is allowed at the rate of $0.54 per mile (it's $0.575/mi for 2015). There are some rules about who can use the standard mileage deduction and how to use it - but in general, it's far more beneficial for most TNC drivers to claim the std mileage deduction than to itemize, report and claim the actual expenses. It's also a hell of alot easier.

You will likely find that the total amount of the std deduction you are allowed is close to or even exceeds the total amount of your TNC earnings.
For example: If you earned $20,000 in earnings from Uber in 2015 - and you drove 1,000 miles per week (52,000 miles/yr) to generate those earnings - you would not have any taxable earnings from your driving:
INCOME: $20,000
STD DEDUCTION: 52,000 X $0.575 =$29,900

This is particularly beneficial to people who have other self employment income, because in the example above, the $9,900 of the allowance above the TNC earnings can offset other earned income.

(as I said, there are details and rules associated with deducting mileage - and you should consult with a qualified tax preparer to see what works best for your specific circumstance)


----------



## CIncinnatiDriver

Michael - Cleveland said:


> While trying to figure per mile costs and per mile profits is fine...
> the only real way to know your true expenses and earnings to take a large block of time - like six months or a year, total everything up and divide a smaller block of time. How many miles did you driver oer a year? Divide that by 52 and you have a very accurate number for miles per week. How much did you spend on gas, repairs, maintainance in a year? Divide that by 52 and you know your expenses per week.
> How much did you earn in a year? Divide that by 52 and you've got your avg gross weekly earnings... subtract your avg weekly expenses and you've got your actual avg weekly net profit, before taxes.
> 
> Personally, I don't really care about my 'net profit per mile' - though I keep an eye on it.
> I'm far more concerened with my expenses, earnings and profit as evaluated by the week, month and year.
> I want to know my "ROI" - return on investment. It's just more meaningful to me...
> other drivers prefer the per mile minutia - and others love to figure earnings per hour. I don't.
> 
> That's the 'cash register' accounting.
> The tax accoutning is a separate animal...
> 
> All of the miles you drive, whether paid miles or 'dead' unpaid miles, are a business expense. In lieu of having to detail and claim individual expenses like oil, gas, insurance, and depreciation, the IRS allows you to claim a tax deduction that includes their estimate of all of those expenses based on the total business miles you drive. For 2016 that deduction is allowed at the rate of $0.54 per mile (it's $0.575/mi for 2015). There are some rules about who can use the standard mileage deduction and how to use it - but in general, it's far more beneficial for most TNC drivers to claim the std deduction than to itemize and claim actual expenses.
> 
> You will likely find that the total amount of the std deduction you are allowed, is close to or even exceeds the total amount of your TNC earnings.
> For example: If you earned $20,000 in earnings from Uber in 2015 - and you drove 1,000 miles per week (52,000 miles/yr) you would not have any taxable earnings from your driving:
> INCOME: $20,000
> STD DEDUCTION: 52,000 X $0.575 =$29,900
> 
> This is particularly beneficial to people who have other self employment income, because in the example above, the $9,900 of the allowance above the TNC earnings can offset other earned income.
> 
> (as I said, there are details and rules associated with deducting mileage - and you should consult with a qualified tax preparer to see what works best for your specific circumstance)


I'm really new to this
so, thank you so much for all this

TO BE CLEAR

You're saying that if I have 50,000 in income from other sources
and $20k from Uber
And $29,900 in std deduction

** There for I would have net taxable income of:
50k+20K=70k....70k-29,9k = only $40,100 in taxable income? ** ?

(Of course I don't want to LOSE money driving Uber
But I guess techinically, if I turn on the app when I leave the house,
the driving TO the busy district to Uber will shake out in the end as a good tax savings + the fact that IRS allows 56 cents deduction but I think my car only costs like 40 cents a mile including depreciation, etc)


----------



## cab591

That's the idea -- because your "business expenses" were $29,9k, you are allowed to deduct that. Even if your true operating cost per mile is way lower than the standard allowed deduction (in an earlier post, I figure you can run a used hybrid for as cheap as $0.12 / mile, including depreciation), you are legally allowed to deduct the standard deduction. If your gross income from all sources is $70k ($50k from a real job, and $20k from Uber), then yes, you are still legally allowed to deduct $29,9k, because it's a business expense you can claim you incurred.

EDIT: So if anything, we should all drive for Uber on the side, so we can increase our tax deductions each year.


----------



## chi1cabby

CIncinnatiDriver said:


> You're saying that if I have 50,000 in income from other sources
> and $20k from Uber
> And $29,900 in std deduction
> 
> ** There for I would have net taxable income of:
> 50k+20K=70k....70k-29,9k = only $40,100 in taxable income? ** ?


No. You wouldn't write off $29,900 against your $50,000 Primary Income. You'd write off $9,900 of your Schd C loss from Uber driving against your $50,000 Primary Income.


Michael - Cleveland said:


> This is particularly beneficial to people who have *other self employment income*, because in the example above, the $9,900 of the allowance above the TNC earnings can offset other earned income.


That should read "*other income*".


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

chi1cabby said:


> No. You wouldn't write off $29,900 against your $50,000 Primary Income. You'd write off $9,900 of your Schd C loss from Uber driving against your $50,000 Primary Income.
> 
> That should read "*other income*".


yeah, I debated over that wording,

I figured if I had just said 'other income', some CPA UberDriver here would jump all over my case for not noting that under the US tax code not all income is treated/taxed the same way. Man - some days ya just can win for trying.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

cab591 said:


> EDIT: So if anything, we should all drive for Uber on the side, so we can increase our tax deductions each year.


That's not a joke. The tax deduction allowance is much higher than my 'actual' driving expenses. If I couldn't use that allowance to offset my other business income, it would not be worth driving.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

CIncinnatiDriver said:


> You're saying that if I have 50,000 in income from other sources and $20k from UberAnd $29,900 in std deduction
> I would have 50k+20K=70k....70k-29,9k = only $40,100 in taxable income?


Your tax liability is based on your ADJUSTED GROSS INCOME...
That's your income after allowable deductions, like:

mortgage interest
unreimbursed BUSINESS expenses (IRS schedule C)
unreimbersed EMPLOYEE expenses (IRS form 2106)
So, in application, YES.. but as chi1cabby points out, technically, you're claiming the deduction on schedule C (where you report your business income and allowances) and your regular (wage) income is reported on form 1040. It's the same net effect. Chi1 is (I think) just pointing out that there is a path to that result.


----------



## Oc_DriverX

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Your tax liability is based on your ADJUSTED GROSS INCOME...
> That's your income after allowable deductions, like:
> 
> mortgage interest
> unreimbursed BUSINESS expenses (IRS schedule C)
> unreimbersed EMPLOYEE expenses (IRS form 2106)


Actually, AGI is calculated before deductions. What you are describing is your taxable income which is AGI - Deductions (standard or itemized) - Exemptions

Mortgage Interest and unreimbursed Employee expenses are only deductible if you are itemizing deductions on Schedule A and those deductions are greater than the standard deduction for your filing status. Also, unreimbursed Employee expenses are only deductible to the extent that they are over 2% of your Adjusted Gross Income.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Michael - Cleveland said:


> The facts remain the same, regardless of how old the thread is - and is underscored, not debunked - by the more recent rate cuts.


Exactly What are the "facts"?

But my rule of thumb is no one should be driving for $1/less mile. My market is slightly above that and I still don't drive for that


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Bart McCoy said:


> Exactly What are the "facts"?...my rule of thumb is no one should be driving for $1/less mile.


The facts are that covering actual costs is, for some people, a fair price to pay for a very large tax deduction that can be used to reduce tax liability from other income - and that suggesting that the rule of thumb you live by should apply to everyone is simply narrow-mindedness.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Michael - Cleveland said:


> The facts are that covering actual costs is, for some people, a fair price to pay for a very large tax deduction that can be used to reduce tax liability from other income - and that suggesting that the rule of thumb you live by should apply to everyone is simply narrow-mindedness.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

really?
An *overly simplified* example:
A sole proprietor has $100,000 of taxable income.
Tax liability = $30,000.
Drive TNC on average 166 mi/day during that same tax year.
That generates ~$30,000 of income.
Even if the earnings only cover actual costs the driver now has a 2016 tax deduction of $54,000 (100,000 miles X $0.54/mi).
The sole proprietor's taxable income is now [ ($100,000 +~$30,000) reduced by the $54,000 mileage deduction] = $76,000.
The sole proprietor is now paying income tax on $24,000 less income - a tax savings of around $7,200.


----------



## Bart McCoy

Michael - Cleveland said:


> really?
> An *overly simplified* example:
> A.


I wasnt really debating your view,you cant make much at all at $1/mile

The whole reason why I bumped this topic is because chi1cabby tried to take a "poke" at me and linked to this topic saying I replied 100 times in this topic. Looks like you made almost 200 replies (as if replying isnt something people do in topics),but of course chi1cabby doesnt try to take a poke at you.Favoritism at its best. Just more proof of his hate and disdain for me simply because I expose him in many different areas


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

Bart McCoy said:


> But his emphasis and main point for linking back to the topic is the *number of posts* I made in this topic,that he would actually count them up, not that I was right or wrong on the issue. This is *proven *because he *reported me to the mods* for "_spamming_" a topic. And his definition of spamming is not me trying to sell you blue pills from a 3rd world country,or some magical age and wrinkle reducing herbs, but simply replying to a topic more than 10 times.
> 
> I also have proof in my inbox that he reported me to the mods after replying ONE time in one of the topics he made, ONE TIME, because, in his affidavit to the mods, he claimed *I was eventually allegedly going to spam the topic*(and spam again is simply replying to the topic,but basically what he considers spam is people who post replies that do not agree with his view). Once chi1cabby tries to come in here and deny it, I will post the messages and expose him once again. Dont think anyone has been reported for attempted future spamming, smh
> 
> Everyone should agree that only trolls would link back to posts made by me over a year ago


It's kind of a fine line here - and I have no idea what side of the line your posts may fall on - but don't sweat it. I'm a MOD and I get ***** slapped for many posts in the same thread too! The preferred method here is to use the multi-quote feature of the software (as used admirably by (Another Uber Driver ). I personally hate that because I reply to posts as I read them - in a more conversational fashion - but the result is that a thread ends up with many of my posts displaying in a row... and it's unsightly and can be a turn-off to readers... so I see both sides. So don't take it personally - it's more of a housekeeping issue.

There, chi1cabby , how did I do explaining it?


----------



## Bart McCoy

Michael - Cleveland said:


> It's kind of a fine line here - and I have no idea what side of the line your posts may fall on - but don't sweat it. I'm a MOD and I get ***** slapped for many posts int he same thread too! The preferred method here is to use the multi-quote feature of the software (as used admirably by (Another Uber Driver ). I personally hate that because I reply to posts as I read them - in a more conversational fashion - but the result is that a thread ends up with many of my posts displaying in a row... and it's unsightly and can be a turn-off to readers... so I see both sides. So don't take it personally - it's more of a housekeeping issue.


I understand, but I dont see many back to back posts from you (instead of multiquote). However, I have seen that many a times from Causualhaberdash guy. I can accept it being a housekeeping issue, but I cant accept someone running to the mods and reporting people for it. Oh wait, that only happens to me. But its only benn ONE user on this board that has reported me for that multiple times. Things that make you go Hmmmmmm.........


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## Michael - Cleveland

Bart McCoy said:


> Oh wait, that only happens to me. .


That's a paranoia.
I already told you it happens to me - and I'm a mod.
And I'm sure it happens to our bison-faced friend as well - along with many, many others.

There are advantages and disadvantages to displaying posts by chronological order (as here in UP.n) or displaying them in 'conversation format'. I personally prefer chronological order - but it does result in many posts from a user in a thread being displayed one right after the other.

Again - don't sweat it... and try to use multi-quote when you can.

And for the love of all things normal, don't post as if you're performing to audience with things like "EVERYBODY NOTE...".
No one cares.
Just talk to the people you are talking to.
(that's my $0.02)


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## Bart McCoy

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That's a paranoia.
> I already told you it happens to me - and I'm a mod.
> And I'm sure it happens to our bison-faced friend as well - along with many, many others.
> 
> There are advantages and disadvantages to displaying posts by chronological order (as here in UP.n) or displaying them in 'conversation format'. I personally prefer chronological order - but it does result in many posts from a user in a thread being displayed one right after the other.
> 
> eople you are talking to.
> (that's my $0.02)


Okay, but just to be clear. I'm not really talking about making say 9 replies to 9 different people and not using the multi-quote feature. What I'm talking about is simply the number of replies. Is there a limit to how many posts you can make in a topic?

And to be more clear, I've never been reported for not using the multi-quote feature. I've only been reported a few times by only one user for making too many replies in one topic(which is "spamming" according to chi1cabby,his choice of words)

So again, where do we find the max limit of replies allowed for one topic?


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## Michael - Cleveland

Bart McCoy said:


> So again, where do we find the max limit of replies allowed for one topic?


Nothing carved in stone. If something annoys a user they can report it - the report can be ignored or if it annoys a mod too (in their own subjective judgement and in light of forum policy) they do something about it. The rules are, as they have been explained to me, relatively flexible as they are designed to create an over-all good experience for everyone here. That you are apparently obsessing over it is (and trust me here) a waste of your energy. Just as much a waste as worrying about getting a 1* rating from an Uber pax.

Also - this is now a conversation between only the two of us and is going to be really annoying to others reading this thread...
so please take it private.
Discussing mods, other users, forum moderation is not appropriate in the public messaging space.


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## The_Mouser

Without reading your other posts on this forum, I can say in my experience that it is fairly common for a moderator to pay more attention to people they consider problem posters than other who do not create any issues. That's human nature. Calling a mod out on several occasions is a good way to get on that short list. 

Not everyone is going to like or get along with everyone else, which is why these things are usually brought up in private between the mod in question and the user or the administrator and user so that whatever issue can be addressed directly. Doing so in a public forum only clouds the issue and puts management in a position of essentially chastising and employee publically which is widely considered poor form, or having to side with the moderator to maintain public unity. Not a good situation .


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## Bart McCoy

The_Mouser said:


> Without reading your other posts on this forum, I can say in my experience that it is fairly common for a moderator to pay more attention to people they consider problem posters than other who do not create any issues. That's human nature. Calling a mod out on several occasions is a good way to get on that short list.
> 
> Not everyone is going to like or get along with everyone else, which is why these things are usually brought up in private between the mod in question and the user or the administrator and user so that whatever issue can be addressed directly. Doing so in a public forum only clouds the issue and puts management in a position of essentially chastising and employee publically which is widely considered poor form, or having to side with the moderator to maintain public unity. Not a good situation .


Which is why you should read my other posts on the forum, that way your response would be more accurate. Because nobody named a mod. There are plenty of mods, and Michael - Cleveland isn't one of the people I was talking about,and he knows that.He was being helping to the issue at hand. Also, I'm not even complaining about the mods,its about valid reporting of topics. So yes, you really need to read the discussion to see what really is at debate.

Also there's a big difference between "moderator paying more attention to people they consider a problem poster" vs a forum member reporting the topic to even get the mod's attention....

But yeah, surely the top known members on the board get better treatment than "problem posters" as you say. Uber on


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## The_Mouser

People do not write to the public when writing a private message. Posting private conversations without permission is the quickest way to lose an argument and respect.

As for the number 1 poster, or person who has provided more content than anyone else, those people usually know the staff very well, and have probably been on the boards longer than the mods have been part of the staff. They are likely not a problem poster as they would have been kicked long before they got to #1. Now having a chip on the shoulder because of that accomplishment is not unheard of, however it is not entirely an unjustified chip, especially if the majority of his posts have been helpful and accurate.

It is also not uncommon for those people to act in an unofficial mod capacity as they have spent the time, know the rules, and know staff cannot be everywhere at the same time.


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## The_Mouser

Pfft... Lmao. Okay man. You go right on and do that. I am sure with the wealth of information he has posted no one can figure out who he really is.

As for being a yes man, I don't think I have even had a passing thread conversation with him before this one. I have had a lot of experience with discussion boards though. Those who provide the content, do so by the rules, and who do not get on the bad side of the moderators get the benefit of the doubt in disputes. It's not being a yes man, it's just human nature. 

But whatever floats your boat.


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## observer

Discussing moderator actions is against forum rules, as is posting confrontational comments. Please refrain from further posts of this nature.

I edited/deleted some posts. Keep on topic.


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## Greguzzi

Anybody who is not on a lease where expenses are specified and who thinks they know the total expenses on their car before they have sold it or scrapped it is a fool.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Greguzzi said:


> Anybody who is not on a lease where expenses are specified and who thinks they know the total expenses on their car before they have sold it or scrapped it is a fool.


That's ridiculous.
Experience is a great teacher.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That's ridiculous.
> Experience is a great teacher.


And this is math, not voodoo.


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## Greguzzi

Michael - Cleveland said:


> That's ridiculous.
> Experience is a great teacher.


LOL.


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## Greguzzi

Michael - Cleveland said:


> And this is math, not voodoo.


Double-LOL.

If you want to hear God laugh, tell him you know what your expenses will be on your car.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Greguzzi said:


> Double-LOL.
> 
> If you want to hear God laugh, tell him you know what your expenses will be on your car.


old saying:
Man plans; God laughs.
Still - if it weren't science and not science fiction, then insurance companies wouldn't be in business making millions by being able to predict costs based on risk experience.


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## Greguzzi

The God part is, of course, precisely my point.

The science in predicting costs is spread over thousands or even millions of cars and is fairly useless for calculating the ownership cost of any individual car. They amortize over a bazillion cars, so the loss on one is compensated by profits on others, and they stockpile cash in case they are wrong. It is also calculated after the final costs are known. If your car is still in use and isn't on a fixed-cost lease, then you have no idea what the final cost is or will be. God laughs at those who think they will or do know . . .


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## Michael - Cleveland

Greguzzi said:


> The God part is, of course, precisely my point.


Oh, please. That's why they are called 'estimates'.


> The science in predicting costs is spread over thousands or even millions of cars and is fairly useless for calculating the ownership cost of any individual car.


 I'll be generous and simply suggest that is your opinion, Based on my own experience (too many freaking DECADES since I bought my first car - and dozens of vehicles later) I can estimate my driving expenses very accurately. It's not like car maintenance costs, repairs, fuel, insurance, etc. are some secret that no one knows anything about. Nearly all car/driving expenses are related to the number of miles the vehicle is driven. If you have $x of costs for driving that vehicle over a 3 year period of 36,000 miles, then your cost of driving that car for TNC use is going to be similar over those those same 36,000 miles driven in just 6 months.


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## Greguzzi

Cool story, bro. Your cost is $0.17 per mile, too, isn't it? LOL.


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## Michael - Cleveland

Greguzzi said:


> Cool story, bro. Your cost is $0.17 per mile, too, isn't it? LOL.


lower than that for my uber X car... but my numbers aren't what most people see.


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## Greguzzi

Michael - Cleveland said:


> lower than that for my uber X car... but my numbers aren't what most people see.


Now, you're killing me.


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## Michael Sotomayor

Nice post.. I guess this works in a perfect scenario.. Only *one* small change in any situation would definitely affect the outcome. So if minimum wage is the *best* case scenario imagine a bad day (which is usually most days with Uber) Guess we aren't making that much money in the end


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