# Another one-time expense?



## MyJessicaLS430 (May 29, 2018)

My car is so reliable that I hardly ever have any repair bills. There were a few but none of the repairs were critical. After the most expensive maintenance at 90K miles that involves the timing belt and water pump, I didn't expect to spend more than $300 on a regular 5k-mile service for years to come honestly. With the odometer passing the 125k-mile mark, I am inside a glass palace again.

Among the list of recommended items that caught my attention are the spark plugs, transmission and rear differential. There is no service history for all these items. Unlike what my previous SA said, both dealers that I visited recently recommended a transmission fluid change. I have heard that changing transmission fluid on cars with no prior history would bring shifting problems in some. Is this a myth?

Here is one of the quotes. Out of curiosity, what is the reasonable cost to get these jobs done?


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## IthurstwhenIP (Jan 12, 2018)

Skipping maitenence on your car is the equivalent of skipping Valentines on your girl.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

MyJessicaLS430 said:


> My car is so reliable that I hardly ever have any repair bills. There were a few but none of the repairs were critical. After the most expensive maintenance at 90K miles that involves the timing belt and water pump, I didn't expect to spend more than $300 on a regular 5k-mile service for years to come honestly. With the odometer passing the 125k-mile mark, I am inside a glass palace again.
> 
> Among the list of recommended items that caught my attention are the spark plugs, transmission and rear differential. There is no service history for all these items. Unlike what my previous SA said, both dealers that I visited recently recommended a transmission fluid change. I have heard that changing transmission fluid on cars with no prior history would bring shifting problems in some. Is this a myth?
> 
> ...


Dealers have their service writers on tiny salary and commission
They need to sell stuff (to make more than 200 bucks a week)
And that's selling you stuff you don't need

Screw them. Post this on bob the oil guy. Great people and there are Lexis mechanics on that site along with Toyota ford GM
They'd be happy to walk you through it
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/
When I bought my car (92,000) at the dealer only auction I brought it in for a transmission fluid change and a free warranty job. That's the only thing I would let a dealer do.
(So yes I would do that but only with a discount coupon when they offer one)

I had just changed the radiator fluid and leaving I got a needed estimate bill similar to yours. $1800&#128517;
They told me they tested the radiator fluid and it was old and needed to be changed.... it was one day old!!
Brakes needed to be done bad...
I went one full year and just now did two front pads at my friends shop. No rotors needed. The back still had another 10 or 15,000 to go..
I have not done one repair in the year I've had the car

This is at a female owned dealer too&#129315;
They're all thieves
What they're doing is criminal
Just like this
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1992-06-12-9202220370-story,amp.html
I've been to the nada convention with a friend who owns a bmw dealership. They teach all these tricks. You may think you're dealing with a little friendly family owned dealership but these businesses gross between 200 million and $1 billion per year.
It's big business and they don't miss a trick to take your money.

The nada spent millions lobbying to keep themselves out of the banking bill. Another source to screw you

Lots of the other stuff can be done at a 60 to 75 dollar mobile mechanic that will come to you.


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

MyJessicaLS430 said:


> My car is so reliable that I hardly ever have any repair bills. There were a few but none of the repairs were critical. After the most expensive maintenance at 90K miles that involves the timing belt and water pump, I didn't expect to spend more than $300 on a regular 5k-mile service for years to come honestly. With the odometer passing the 125k-mile mark, I am inside a glass palace again.
> 
> Among the list of recommended items that caught my attention are the spark plugs, transmission and rear differential. There is no service history for all these items. Unlike what my previous SA said, both dealers that I visited recently recommended a transmission fluid change. I have heard that changing transmission fluid on cars with no prior history would bring shifting problems in some. Is this a myth?
> 
> ...


A lot of these "inspections" are done very quickly but are charged at a book rate that means lots of $$$ for the dealer. I don't remember if you use a independent dealer or an actual dealer but if you want to go with a "look at everything" approach you should find a independent dealer. They will be cheaper and a lot of the indie shops are owned by people who know the cars inside and out vs the fresh out of school tech who only knows what some computer tells them to do step by step.

As for the transmission flush, on a Toyota (Lexus I know...) I wouldn't worry about issues when it comes to flushing the fluid. Most people don't have issues with a transmission flush or spill-and-fill. You never know this because they don't go to every internet forum they can find and praise how well the flush went.... unlike those who have problems


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## MikhailCA (Dec 8, 2019)

MyJessicaLS430 said:


> Here is one of the quotes. Out of curiosity, what is the reasonable cost to get these jobs done?


Like $300-$500 if you using independent shop. 
Have you ever did any of these services on your car before?


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Fusion_LUser said:


> A lot of these "inspections" are done very quickly but are charged at a book rate that means lots of $$$ for the dealer. I don't remember if you use a independent dealer or an actual dealer but if you want to go with a "look at everything" approach you should find a independent dealer. They will be cheaper and a lot of the indie shops are owned by people who know the cars inside and out vs the fresh out of school tech who only knows what some computer tells them to do step by step.
> 
> As for the transmission flush, on a Toyota (Lexus I know...) I wouldn't worry about issues when it comes to flushing the fluid. Most people don't have issues with a transmission flush or spill-and-fill. You never know this because they don't go to every internet forum they can find and praise how well the flush went.... unlike those who have problems :smiles:


From what I read on Bob the oil guy problems are more likely to arise on a transmission flush near 200,000
than 100,000


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## sumidaj (Nov 2, 2020)

Find a good independent mechanic, they can give you better diagnostics and service at cheaper prics compared to the dealer...finding a good one though will be the tricky part.

"spark plugs, transmission and rear differential"

For all? Expect maybe $300 - $400 at the dealer? it might be more

Change the plugs after 100K miles. it'll help maintain or improve performance and gas mileage

your mileage is still KINDA low....id change the fluid personally..Ask a mechanic...if he say's its far-gone or there are oddities like burned fluid etc... id listen to him and also get a second opinion to confirm. .

if you haven't done maintenance on the trans they say not to change fluid on old / high mileage cars because the crud inside can be flushed out. The tolerances and what not are less without that gunk so by flushing it out, the trans might start to slip / go out.

At that point though its just a matter of time before failure occurs.

the Toyota / lexus transmissions are pretty bullet proof though.

BTW, timing belt / water pump are not a one time expense. Expect to do them again at the next 90K interval which is 180K depending on how long you plan to keep the car. I think that V-8 is an interference engine if I am not mistaken.

trans is also usually every 60k miles unless Lexus has longer intervals...i would not be comfortable going more than 60k miles though.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Since when does a Lexus' 430 have a rear differential?

Unless it's 4WD.


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## Illini (Mar 14, 2019)

observer said:


> Since when does a Lexus' 430 have a rear differential?


Since the LS 430 has rear wheel drive.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Illini said:


> Since the LS 430 has rear wheel drive.


Interesting, I thought they had gone away from rear wheel drive completely.

I'd always thought of them as gussied up Toyotas.


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

observer said:


> Interesting, I thought they had gone away from rear wheel drive completely.
> 
> I'd always thought of them as gussied up Toyotas.


The LS has been around since 1989 and even with the current generation it's still front engine and rear wheel drive.

You are right though Lexus is a "gussied" up Toyota and shares a lot of common parts. I do believe the Lexus is nicer and you certainly get your money's worth with the Lexus but in the end it is a Toyota.

Cars like the ES 250 was basically a Toyota Camry's even though they did look different. The Lexus LX is probably the most badged engineered vehicle... nothing more than a fully loaded Land Cruisier!


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## sumidaj (Nov 2, 2020)

Fusion_LUser said:


> The LS has been around since 1989 and even with the current generation it's still front engine and rear wheel drive.
> 
> You are right though Lexus is a "gussied" up Toyota and shares a lot of common parts. I do believe the Lexus is nicer and you certainly get your money's worth with the Lexus but in the end it is a Toyota.
> 
> Cars like the ES 250 was basically a Toyota Camry's even though they did look different. The Lexus LX is probably the most badged engineered vehicle... nothing more than a fully loaded Land Cruisier!


Are you thinking of the LX470? I think that's the SUV

The LS430 is the 4 door flagship sedan that took over the LS400 I believe...well, back in the day.


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## TomTheAnt (Jan 1, 2019)

Jessica, just as I have told you in many of your previous posts, please find a competent independent shop that deals mostly with Lexus and other Asian brands. Just make sure they come with good references. There are plenty of them in every big city. Just look around.

They will perform the needed jobs at half the cost of the dealer. Your Lexus will not notice the difference.

I do all my own maintenance and hate to see people taken advantage of. Especially by the dealers. Case in point: My daughter goes to medical school in Galveston, TX, about five hours away from us. Her 2013 Infiniti G37 w/140K miles needed an oil change and since she will not have time to drive up here anytime soon due to school, I told her to take it to Infiniti dealer in Clear Lake, about 20 minutes away. I didn't want her to take the car to any of the local shops, either.

She took it to the dealer's Express Service and came out not only with $120 oil change, but with a litany of things the car needed immediately done to it to the tune of just over $5200.  WTF??? Main thing being that the whole rear subframe should be replaced since the original hydraulic bushings are leaking and you need to change the whole subframe. Umm..., yeah... Bushings are available from aftermarket for about 200 bucks or so and will take a few hours of fiddling in my own garage to put them on.

Plus... One thing they also recommended was spark plug change for about $500. Well, the previous owner changed them at 110K miles (car came with all receipts of maintenance done by him, the original owner) and the Infiniti recommended interval is I think 80K, so I just wonder why they recommended that as being needed immediately? Just a rhetorical question, no need to answer... 



sumidaj said:


> Are you thinking of the LX470? I think that's the SUV


That's correct. A glorified Land Cruiser.


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## observer (Dec 11, 2014)

Fusion_LUser said:


> The LS has been around since 1989 and even with the current generation it's still front engine and rear wheel drive.
> 
> You are right though Lexus is a "gussied" up Toyota and shares a lot of common parts. I do believe the Lexus is nicer and you certainly get your money's worth with the Lexus but in the end it is a Toyota.
> 
> Cars like the ES 250 was basically a Toyota Camry's even though they did look different. The Lexus LX is probably the most badged engineered vehicle... nothing more than a fully loaded Land Cruisier!


I worked at an auto dismantler for almost 25 years, we must not of gotten a lot of Lexus.

I do remember the Celicas. I used to sell the rearends to a guy that would shorten them on one side and use them with motorcyle engines in Legend race cars.

https://www.uslegendcars.com/start-racing/cars/legend-car/
The transmission and steering box in those we'd ship to the Philipines.

The Sanden 508 air compressor off the same car was shipped to Thailand.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

TomTheAnt said:


> My daughter goes to medical school in Galveston, TX, about five hours away from us. Her 2013 Infiniti G37 w/140K miles needed an oil change and since she will not have time to drive up here anytime soon due to school, I told her to take it to Infiniti dealer in Clear Lake, about 20 minutes away. I didn't want her to take the car to any of the local shops, either.
> 
> She took it to the dealer's Express Service and came out not only with $120 oil change, but with a litany of things the car needed immediately done to it to the tune of just over $5200.  WTF??? Main thing being that the whole rear subframe should be replaced since the original hydraulic bushings are leaking and you need to change the whole subframe. Umm..., yeah... Bushings are available from aftermarket for about 200 bucks or so and will take a few hours of fiddling in my own garage to put them on.
> 
> ...


Criminal

It really is


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## TomTheAnt (Jan 1, 2019)

wallae said:


> Criminal
> 
> It really is


Absofrigginlutely!!!


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

TomTheAnt said:


> Absofrigginlutely!!!


Sucks 
They donate money to politicians and give 100 bucks to the dog rescue and it's all OK

Al Capone used similar tactics


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## Fusion_LUser (Jan 3, 2020)

sumidaj said:


> Are you thinking of the LX470? I think that's the SUV
> 
> The LS430 is the 4 door flagship sedan that took over the LS400 I believe...well, back in the day.


Yeah I was talking about the SUV. The LX 450 and higher for the 1st and 2nd generation was pretty much a rebadged Land Cruiser. I do believe the 3rd Gen is all new design separate from the J200. From what I heard the Land Cruiser will be discontinued from the US Market for 2021.


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## driverdoug (Jun 11, 2017)

You want your mechanic to understand you need stuff fixed fast. ASAP. You are losing money the longer it sits.


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## TBone (Jan 19, 2015)

driverdoug said:


> You want your mechanic to understand you need stuff fixed fast. ASAP. You are losing money the longer it sits.


really need access to two cars to drive uber full-time imo


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

wallae said:


> Al Capone used similar tactics


Al wasn't that bad of a guy.
Just a businessman who was a product of the times.

My father worked for him for a few years before WW2.
He managed a trucking company that took 'machine parts' into Windsor, Canada and bring 'miscellaneous goods' from Canada back into US. (whiskey).

Dad told me once that "world war two probably saved my life."


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

UberBastid said:


> Al wasn't that bad of a guy.
> Just a businessman who was a product of the times.
> 
> My father worked for him for a few years before WW2.
> ...


They did kill innocent people 
And extorted innocent people 
If you can do that and be not that bad of a guy
This was a great book
Mostly from the end of the Capone days to the 70s


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

wallae said:


> They did kill innocent people
> And extorted innocent people


Sounds like he tried to be A Government.
That's what governments do.

Unfettered capitalism is evil.

But I have often preached that nobody is ALL bad. There is good in all.
Capone set up soup kitchens in Chicago and fed thousands of hungry people every day.
Then he'd fire bomb a mom and pop dry cleaners for not paying protection.

Humans - very unpredictable.


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## TomTheAnt (Jan 1, 2019)

Only at YouPeaDotNet can a discussion go from Lexus repair estimate to Al Capone. :roflmao:


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

MyJessicaLS430 said:


> My car is so reliable that I hardly ever have any repair bills. There were a few but none of the repairs were critical. After the most expensive maintenance at 90K miles that involves the timing belt and water pump, I didn't expect to spend more than $300 on a regular 5k-mile service for years to come honestly. With the odometer passing the 125k-mile mark, I am inside a glass palace again.
> 
> Among the list of recommended items that caught my attention are the spark plugs, transmission and rear differential. There is no service history for all these items. Unlike what my previous SA said, both dealers that I visited recently recommended a transmission fluid change. I have heard that changing transmission fluid on cars with no prior history would bring shifting problems in some. Is this a myth?
> 
> ...


That's around $120 in parts. IMO the only reasonable labour cost for very basic maintenance tasks like these is $0, because you can do them yourself. However, you can do an oil and filter change, spark plugs and air filters well within an hour, so $250 absolute tops if you went to a reputable independent shop.


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## UberBastid (Oct 1, 2016)

TomTheAnt said:


> Only at YouPeaDotNet can a discussion go from Lexus repair estimate to Al Capone. :roflmao:


It's what I do.
It's just ... what I do.

Thanks for noticing.


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## MyJessicaLS430 (May 29, 2018)

Firstly, I truly appreciate everyone's input. Actually I am open to the idea of independent shops because of a prior positive experience in Houston that has saved me a thousand re-building the suspension. Since I am still new to town, it doesn't sound like a bad idea to have my car serviced at a dealer since the search for a reputable shop is going to take some time.

Turns out my bill is a little bit less than what was quoted.












Fusion_LUser said:


> As for the transmission flush, on a Toyota (Lexus I know...) I wouldn't worry about issues when it comes to flushing the fluid. Most people don't have issues with a transmission flush or spill-and-fill. You never know this because they don't go to every internet forum they can find and praise how well the flush went.... unlike those who have problems :smiles:


The dealer did a partial change instead of a flush saying that the later may actually be counter-productive on an aged car. Honestly I do not notice any difference in shifting after the service. By the way, it is said that today's ES is built based on Avalon. Personally I disagree. This is my sister's car. Why would anyone buy a LS anymore other than the rear legroom?




















MikhailCA said:


> Like $300-$500 if you using independent shop.
> Have you ever did any of these services on your car before?


Don't think so. There are no such records in the maintenance history. I was particularly worried about the transmission service as I have heard elsewhere that it was designed for "lifetime". However, I did approve the fluid change with the expectation that the dealer will be liable for any damages should anything go wrong &#129315;!!



TomTheAnt said:


> Jessica, just as I have told you in many of your previous posts, please find a competent independent shop that deals mostly with Lexus and other Asian brands. Just make sure they come with good references. There are plenty of them in every big city. Just look around.
> 
> She took it to the dealer's Express Service and came out not only with $120 oil change, but with a litany of things the car needed immediately done to it to the tune of just over $5200.


I have actually got the struts and control arms replaced by an independent shop in Houston before relocation. My bill was a thousand dollars less than the dealer's quote. The best part is that it is also done right because the annoying cracking noise was eradicated. Since the research of reputable local shops is not a matter of minutes, I would rather have a peace of mind than rolling a dice.

Upselling is not unique to dealers. A lot of shops do the same to sell customers parts and services that they do not need. These businesses prey on people like me. This is why I am more inclined to entrust the car to a dealer in a town that is new to me. There is no recourse in an independent shop. I have no idea or evidence of what they could do to sabotage my car. Fortunate for me, my previous SA always emphasizes the list of recommended jobs is only for reference.



sumidaj said:


> "spark plugs, transmission and rear differential"
> 
> For all? Expect maybe $300 - $400 at the dealer? it might be more
> 
> ...


Sorry if I caused the misunderstanding. I meant I didn't expect initially any major maintenance after the 90k-mile service that costed me $1800. The spark plugs, differential and transmission job are something that I didn't expect. You are right about the timing belt, which needs to be changed again at 180k miles. What has actually surprised me is that the car is still with its original radiator and the dealer even said it was a kind of "no failure, no repair" item.

My car currently have just a few miles north of 126k. This is the car that I want to keep for life. While folding mirrors, ventilated front and rear seats, cruise control, power memory front seats and self-activated windshield wipers are nothing fancy by today's standard, think of when the car was made - 2004. Well, some of these features are not even common in the latest cars. As ignorant as it may sound, I have not ridden a car smoother and quieter than the legendary LS 430, not even my 460L, which is a successor of the 430s. If I were to make the only complaint, that would be too comfortable. I have to admit I have almost fell asleep behind the wheel multiple times.


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## sumidaj (Nov 2, 2020)

MyJessicaLS430 said:


> What has actually surprised me is that the car is still with its original radiator and the dealer even said it was a kind of "no failure, no repair" item.
> 
> My car currently have just a few miles north of 126k. This is the car that I want to keep for life. While folding mirrors, ventilated front and rear seats, cruise control, power memory front seats and self-activated windshield wipers are nothing fancy by today's standard, think of when the car was made - 2004. Well, some of these features are not even common in the latest cars. As ignorant as it may sound, I have not ridden a car smoother and quieter than the legendary LS 430, not even my 460L, which is a successor of the 430s. If I were to make the only complaint, that would be too comfortable. I have to admit I have almost fell asleep behind the wheel multiple times.


Don't believe them on the rad...Toyotas are great but dealers / mechanics give you the impression the cars are indestructible....they are great but are not indestructible and require age / maintenace things at least.... .....Their radiators have a tendency to have the side tanks..usually on the top / bottom get old / brittle....mainly the top....... When they start to turn brownish that means the plastic is starting to get old / brittle and may crack or leak. not a huge deal but don't let them tell you its a no replace item especially if you plan to keep it for a long time.... ive been lucky because I can see mine start to leak and haven;t had them actually burst on me...yet lol. Learn to inspect things so you can catch them. They seem to last about 20 years / 150 - 200k miles id say, but yours is almost there....

"By the way, it is said that today's ES is built based on Avalon."

Normally its the Camry thje ES is based on, not sure now, but the Avalon is based on an extended camry platform....Its just the platform really with different skin and features..... So they can use similar parts like control arms / similar or the same motors minus LEXUS details / tweaks like better suspension tuning etc. great cars but you pay more lol Im sure nowadays there are more differences between the models though.

I keep my Toyotas a long time. IMHO with almost 150K on your, id look for a good independent mechanic. I know the feel about wanting to keep it serviced forever, but putting dealer repair costs / parts into a 17 year old car is kinda.... ehhhh if you want to thats up to you, but if you're maintaining both the 430 and 460 at the dealership im sure youre paying a lot..... The plus is the dealer will use genuine parts, and you have a nice lobby to wait....but you can always tell the mechanic to use genuine parts as well. over here it HOURS waiting for the dealer....I bought my car used with a years worth of free oil changes (4) but I passed because I can do my own in 15 min vs waiting 3 - 5 hours each....to me my time was more important than a few oil changes lol

there are SOME things the dealer may do cheaper...may even get parts cheaper since theyd have access to the OE parts.....but youd have to check / compare.

.02


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## TomTheAnt (Jan 1, 2019)

MyJessicaLS430 said:


> These businesses prey on people like me.


And the Infiniti dealer in Clear Lake definitely preyed on my daughter maybe thinking that since a young girl (well..., I still consider 26 young :biggrin comes in with such a nice looking car, she must have money and they can scare her into buying all kinds of crap she doesn't need.

I was considering calling them and asking a few questions, but then decided why bother. Unfortunately it's not going to change anything. At least I have instilled in both my girls to be extremely suspicious about anybody who says they need to fix something on their car.


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

Unfortunately I have lost almost all trust in mechanics which is why I do my own work as much as possible.

Even when they are honest they overcharge. My dad got charged $700 to install a $300 part. They billed for 2 hours of labor. $200 an hour is absurdly high. Looking on youtube I could have done it, and looking on e-bay the part could have been acquired for $200. It only took the guy on youtube 45 minutes.

I hate how pushy auto guys are too.

I took my old 2007 beater Uber car in to get tires replaced after destroyed one of my tires hitting a curb. The auto guy comes back with a recommended $2000 bill of recommended work on my car (which has a Kelly value of about the same amount) and moslty it is recommending things like changing out the struts and suspension work. I said, "No thanks" and he kept pushing and wouldn't take no for an answer and was like "You need to get this stuff done ASAP. Why wouldn't you do this?" I just said I'm getting rid of the car soon, which is true. It ages out of the system for Uber come January... and well, it's been 30K miles since then and my suspension hasn't fallen off yet... and if it does.... well my car will be too old to be on the platform next January anyways...

He also said my brakes were bad, which was suspect because I had them replaced them not too long ago. He invoiced me for new rotors and then somehow told me I needed to change the brakes soon or it would damage the rotors. So why was he billing me for rotors and then threatening that my rotors could be ruined if he was going to bill me for rotors anyways? So I waited a few thousand miles for my regular self-tire rotation and measured my brake pads which were *not* bad. Worse, I discovered that it looked like my left brake pad was a lot thinner than the right brake pad, and I highly suspect the last guy who changed my brakes billed me for a set for both the left and the right wheel but only replaced one of them. So I ordered brakes myself and changed the brakes out myself when the left brake pad got below the required minimum thickness (over 10K miles later). The brakes plus new rotors were far, far cheaper than what he was pushing and changing the brakes was super easy. I replaced the rotors too even though the rotors looked fine and came way under budget.


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## 25rides7daysaweek (Nov 20, 2017)

TomTheAnt said:


> Only at YouPeaDotNet can a discussion go from Lexus repair estimate to Al Capone. :roflmao:


Taking your car into a Lexus dealer because you have been led 
to believe you need all that service isn't really that far from extortion...


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

wallae said:


> They did kill innocent people
> And extorted innocent people
> If you can do that and be not that bad of a guy
> This was a great book
> Mostly from the end of the Capone days to the 70s


Remember the Geraldo Rivera Live revealing of the Al Capone Vault? :roflmao: &#129315;:biggrin:


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

FLKeys said:


> Remember the Geraldo Rivera Live revealing of the Al Capone Vault? :roflmao: &#129315;:biggrin:


I didn't watch but I heard.
I didn't expect anything as Murray Humphries would bring May Capone and her son some money every few months to live on.
She was always asking for more.
The guys, Tony Arcado and Paul Ricca were pretty good but Sam Giancanna wanted to cut them off

In the book..
After Capone
20 Chicago guys owning living in what are now 10 million dollar homes in Fla
Reporting 80-90 grand a year to the irs in the 49s 50s and 60s
Guys you would never know
Sam "Golf Bag"
Murray Humphreys house
https://www.redfin.com/FL/Key-Biscayne/210-Harbor-Dr-33149/home/42920031
Sam


FLKeys said:


> Remember the Geraldo Rivera Live revealing of the Al Capone Vault? :roflmao: &#129315;:biggrin:


Sam Hunt "shotgun"
Prolific killer with a great sense of humor
Semi retired wealthy to Coral Gables
With Ralph Pierce (early killer and later head of gambling) clowning around
Murder lineup with Tony Accardo 
Seems before being the top guy Tony started being an apprentice killer learning under Sam
Sams gold bag


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