# After expenses, study finds Uber, Lyft Drivers Earning A Median Profit Of $3.37 Per hour



## tcaud

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/01/uber-lyft-driver-wages-median-report

This is big. It's the kind of study a judge can't ignore when making a ruling.


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## Lunger

"Trump is going (somewhere) next year"

....Says increasingly nervous guy for the 11th time.


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## Blatherskite

My link clicking finger is broken. Got an article synopsis?


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## Jesusdrivesuber

That seems just about right but the problem with those studies is that they took data from people without knowing the type of drivers they were, IMO the numbers are much lower when you drive blindly and do everything uber and lyft tell you to do or say... play by the rules.

Drivers who abuse the system and know their spots make much more than 600 in profits, you can say 2 grand or so a month, still a pitance for all the juggling and risk it takes to pull it.


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## tcaud

Blatherskite said:


> My link clicking finger is broken. Got an article synopsis?


"Average rideshare earnings among those surveyed = $3.30"


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## at-007smartLP

Blatherskite said:


> My link clicking finger is broken. Got an article synopsis?


Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds

Majority of drivers make less than minimum wage and many end up losing money, according to study published by MIT

Sam Levin in San Francisco @SamTLevin
Email

Thu 1 Mar 2018 21.09 EST
Last modified on Thu 1 Mar 2018 21.14 EST
uber car

Uber and Lyft drivers in the US make a median profit of $3.37 per hour before taxes, according to a new report that suggests a majority of ride-share workers make below minimum wage and that many actually lose money.

Researchers did an analysis of vehicle cost data and a survey of over 1,100 drivers for the ride-hailing companies for the paper published by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research. The report - which factored in insurance, maintenance, repairs, fuel and other costs - found that 30% of drivers are losing money on the job and that 74% earn less than the minimum wage in their states.

The findings have raised fresh concerns about labor standards in the booming sharing economy as companies like Uber and Lyft continue to face scrutiny over their treatment of drivers, who are classified as independent contractors and have few rights or protections.

"This business model is not currently sustainable," said Stephen Zoepf, executive director of the Center for Automotive Research at Stanford University and co-author of the paper. "The companies are losing money. The businesses are being subsidized by [venture capital] money &#8230; And the drivers are essentially subsidizing it by working for very low wages."
All workers need unions - including those in Silicon Valley
Chi Onwurah
Read more

Drivers earn a median of 59 cents per mile while incurring a median cost of 30 cents per mile, the report said, adding that for nearly a third of drivers, the costs are ultimately higher than the revenue. The paper reported the average driver profit to be $661 per month.

While most drivers use vehicles for personal use and ride-hailing services, the bulk of the miles they drive are for work, which can lead to significant short-term and long-term costs, the paper said.

Given inevitable costs of maintenance, repair and depreciation, "effectively what you're doing as a driver is borrowing against the value of your car," Zoepf said, adding: "It's quite possible that drivers don't realize quite how much they are spending."

Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job.

Harry Campbell, founder of the Rideshare Guy, a website that has conducted surveys of drivers, said the finding of a $3.37 median hourly profit seemed a bit low, but noted that new drivers were often surprised by the wages.

"The most common feedback we hear from drivers is they end up earning a lot less than they expected," said Campbell, who partnered with Zoepf on the surveys used in the paper. "There is a lot of turnover in the industry, and that's the number one reason I hear from drivers why they are quitting - they are not making enough."

Campbell pointed out that Uber itself had struggled to properly consider vehicle costs. Last year, the company shut down its US auto-leasing business after discovering it was losing 18 times more money per vehicle than it had previously understood. Some drivers claimed that the leasing program trapped them in debt.

An Uber spokesperson broadly criticized the research in a statement: "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."

Lyft did not respond to a request for comment.


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## Blatherskite

at-007smartLP said:


> An Uber spokesperson broadly criticized the research in a statement: "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."


Sneered the Uber spokesperson: "It would be a pity if some of your surveys got broke."

Harry had an Uber exec on his program this week and the only reason I listened all the way through was because the guest spoke with such disingenuous corporate optimism that he was interesting as a specimen of repulsiveness. His favorite word was "exciting ".

As per usual, Harry lobbed him only anodyne softballs.


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## HotUberMess

“This report’s methodology is flawed”, claims corporate hack from company with 96% turnover rate


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## RedANT

The flaw in this is assuming that everyone should be making the same amount of money. Income varies greatly depending on market, the hours you work, the area of town you work, your driving habits, etc., and just because some people suck at making money driving doesn't mean that we all do.

This week I worked 17.5 hrs, I did 31 runs, drove 718 miles and I made $525 Uber + $54 Lyft + $37 cash tips. ($616, or $35.20 /hr gross) Gas cost me $46, assume I set aside $25 for oil changes and put $100 away for a ~$10k replacement vehicle every 2 years. 

$616 - 46 gas - 25 oil changes - 100 savings = $445 / 17.5 = $25.42 /hr NET. 

I know people will scream about depreciation, which is why I figured in $100 /wk for replacement or repairs. Likewise, people will say that I should figure in taxes, however even in private employment, taxes are NOT generally figured into stated salaries. 

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, or maybe others are. The difference is that I'm ok with the above. As a retiree, it sure beats sitting at home watching TV.


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## jester121

The report refers to driver earnings as "wages", and is therefore flawed on its face. 

Next....


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## at-007smartLP

RedANT said:


> The flaw in this is assuming that everyone should be making the same amount of money. Income varies greatly depending on market, the hours you work, the area of town you work, your driving habits, etc., and just because some people suck at making money driving doesn't mean that we all do.
> 
> This week I worked 17.5 hrs, I did 31 runs, drove 718 miles and I made $525 Uber + $54 Lyft + $37 cash tips. ($616, or $35.20 /hr gross) Gas cost me $46, assume I set aside $25 for oil changes and put $100 away for a ~$10k replacement vehicle every 2 years.
> 
> $616 - 46 gas - 25 oil changes - 100 savings = $445 / 17.5 = $25.42 /hr NET.
> 
> I know people will scream about depreciation, which is why I figured in $100 /wk for replacement or repairs. Likewise, people will say that I should figure in taxes, however even in private employment, taxes are NOT generally figured into stated salaries.
> 
> Maybe I'm doing it wrong, or maybe others are. The difference is that I'm ok with the above. As a retiree, it sure beats sitting at home watching TV.


anctedotal look the word up, this is an mit study some of the greates minds in the world exposing a very obvious ponzi scheme that 96% of people who ever drove find out within the first year

every blank contract they send a driver should covers costs

this mit study shows uber needs to almost triple rates just to make minimum wage & like real estate its location location location, i bought property based on the most profitable efficient ride so 100% of my requests im in the bed or couch, no idling no burning gas circling staying warm or cool, i watch the cockroaches circle me all day & pass them the scraps that will lead to their failure, it shouldnt be that way


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## BurgerTiime

https://www.opb.org/news/article/np...g-a-median-profit-of-337-per-hour-study-says/









A study from MIT says most drivers are making less than minimum wage.

The vast majority of Uber and Lyft drivers are earning less than minimum wage and almost a third of them are actually losing money by driving, according to researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

A working paper by Stephen M. Zoepf, Stella Chen, Paa Adu and Gonzalo Pozo at MIT's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research says the median pretax profit earned from driving is $3.37 per hour after taking expenses into account. Seventy-four percent of drivers earn less than their state's minimum wage, the researchers say.

















_*Thirty percent of drivers "are actually losing money once vehicle expenses are included," the authors found.*_

The conclusions are based on surveys of more than 1,100 drivers who told researchers about their revenue, how many miles they drove and what type of car they used. The study's authors then combined that with typical costs associated with a certain car's insurance, maintenance, gas and depreciation, which was gathered in data from Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book and the Environmental Protection Agency.

Drivers earning the median amount of revenue are getting $0.59 per mile driven, researchers say, but expenses work out to $0.30 per mile, meaning a driver makes a median profit of $0.29 for each mile.

An Uber spokesperson responded to the finding in a statement to The Guardian:

"While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."

The newspaper also noted, "Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job."

MIT authors also calculated that it's possible for billions of dollars in driver profits to be untaxed, because "nearly half of drivers can declare a loss on their taxes." Drivers are able to use the IRS standard mileage rate deduction to write off some of the costs of using a car for business. In 2016, that number was $0.54 per mile. "Because of this deduction, most ride-hailing drivers are able to declare profits that are substantially lower," researchers write.

"If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," they add.

The MIT researchers said 80 percent of drivers said they work less than 40 hours per week. An NPR/Marist poll in January found 1 in 5 jobs in the U.S. is held by a contract worker; contractors often juggle multiple part-time jobs.

What's worse, approximately 75% of drivers earn less than the minimum wage in their state.

Uber and Lyft both have "notoriously high" turnover rates among drivers. A report last year said just 4 percent of Uber drivers work for the company for at least a year.

NPR's Aarti Shahani reported in December that Lyft began a program to give drivers "access to discounted GED and college courses online" in a recruiting effort.

It was only last year that Uber introduced the option to tip drivers into its app for customers. Recode listed the initiatives Uber rolled out in 2017 in order to appeal to drivers, including 24-hour phone support, paid wait time and paying drivers if customers cancel after a certain amount of time.

'This business model is not currently sustainable,' Stephen Zoepf, a co-author of the paper, told the Guardian.

'The companies are losing money and the businesses are being subsidized by [venture capital] money'

'Drivers are essentially subsidizing it by working for very low wages,' he added.

Both Uber and Lyft have been fighting legal battles for years against initiatives to classify their drivers as "employees" instead of "independent contractors" - meaning drivers don't receive benefits like health care or sick leave.





Update: 
*Uber CEO slams MIT after study on ride-hailing minimum wages*
https://mashable.com/2018/03/03/uber-ceo-mit-study/#_OaF4GRBeqq6


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## Mars Troll Number 4

So uber is claiming that these MIT researchers are using flawed methodology?

When the researchers info reflects... what we all have been saying for a long time?

Who could have seen that one coming?


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## Bob Reynolds

The numbers are very close to what I found.

In fact, last month I did a test in Orlando with Lyft using their vehicle for 40 hours on the highest earnings times of the week. The goal was to make as much as possible driving for Lyft.

The test is detailed here:

https://uberpeople.net/threads/lyft-real-pay-and-real-experience-driving-their-vehicle.240062/


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## Mars Troll Number 4

RedANT said:


> The flaw in this is assuming that everyone should be making the same amount of money. Income varies greatly depending on market, the hours you work, the area of town you work, your driving habits, etc., and just because some people suck at making money driving doesn't mean that we all do.
> 
> This week I worked 17.5 hrs, I did 31 runs, drove 718 miles and I made $525 Uber + $54 Lyft + $37 cash tips. ($616, or $35.20 /hr gross) Gas cost me $46, assume I set aside $25 for oil changes and put $100 away for a ~$10k replacement vehicle every 2 years.
> 
> $616 - 46 gas - 25 oil changes - 100 savings = $445 / 17.5 = $25.42 /hr NET.
> 
> I know people will scream about depreciation, which is why I figured in $100 /wk for replacement or repairs. Likewise, people will say that I should figure in taxes, however even in private employment, taxes are NOT generally figured into stated salaries.
> 
> Maybe I'm doing it wrong, or maybe others are. The difference is that I'm ok with the above. As a retiree, it sure beats sitting at home watching TV.


You're doing it right.

*Seattle* cough cough cough..

My thinking... Seattle falls into the 26% that makes above min wage. Something you keep failing to mention is how much higher Seattle rates are than most other markets. VS Orlando falls in the 30% that loses money.

So 31 runs get's you $616..

At Orlando rates that's probably closer to $200 with close to the same miles driven. 718 miles. At 30c a mile in costs.. that's... $215 in costs... or

Losing money.

It's not about sucking at your job, it's about living in the right market.

I get about 4 times the uberX rate per mile running a taxi. It's also easier to stay busy driving a taxi here than it is on lyft, while about the same on uber.

If a short trip pays you $3.00 and a half hour long drive pays you $20... you're never going to see anything but crap numbers.

Knowing what I know...

I could have predicted MITs numbers.

1/4 nation wide are doing better than min wage in profit.
1/4 are losing money.
3/4 are making less than min wage


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## SEAL Team 5

BurgerTiime said:


> Seventy-four percent of drivers earn less than their state's minimum wage, the researchers say.


That's the ole pessimistic view of the glass is half empty. An optimist would say "Hey, twenty-six percent of drivers earn their state's minimum wage."


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## littlegoodwolf

i think circumstances have to be examined as well. Right now I am cash poor but the equity in my car is high. I am using that equity to squeeze out the cash that I need right now and doing so at my own hours etc... The fact that I can do it tax free bc the mileage deduction outweighs the income is an added bonus. its just what works for me at this moment and lets me pursue a cash-poor life option for a while.


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## Ride-Share-Risk-Manager

I think drivers should print off copies of the MIT report and have them available for passengers to read and reflect on. Uber and Lyft will do nothing to explain to passengers about how drivers are not making an acceptable living to provide this service. MIT is a globally respected research university. Our driver group is going to try handing out this report to every passenger for a few weeks as an experiment to see if it has any impact on tipping and driver ratings.


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## getawaycar

It's sad when workers at Walmart and McDonalds are making more than you.


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## leroy jenkins

getawaycar said:


> It's sad when workers at Walmart and McDonalds are making more than you.


And the guy working at McDonald's has a 0% chance of being killed by a DUI or shived by a pax.

Another post on the study. Or if you want to comment on a blog read by 'normies'
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/201...-half-minimum-wage-30-drivers-lose-money.html


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## getawaycar

jester121 said:


> The report refers to driver earnings as "wages", and is therefore flawed on its face.


No. "Wages" is the term used by the article.

The actual study refers to driver earnings as "profits."


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## getawaycar

leroy jenkins said:


> And the guy working at McDonald's has a 0% chance of being killed by a DUI or shived by a pax.


And unlike regular employees rideshare drivers aren't eligible for unemployment or disability benefits if they are laid off or injured on the job. Even though they pay more taxes, they get no benefits of any kind.


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## RaleighNick

Yeah the flawed methodology that the uber folk refer to is the same flawed methodology they should have used when calculating how much their rental program would cost. Maybe they wouldn't have lost so much money on it.


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## at-007smartLP

paying $3.37 an hour and almost 40% of drivers are losing money per hour and they still lose $9000 A SECOND, 12 MILLION PER DAY with a 96% failure rate

sure its not a ponzi scam envolved in slavery & ACTUAL HUMAN TRAFFICKING

#NationalizeUber

they have not been good corporate citizens put america back to work

$1.50 per mile, .25 per minute, $10 minimum gross Nationwide minimums

Every adult with a vehicle within 10 years old & can pass a background & drivers license tests now has a fair job with fair pay for an honest days work.

Thats all the people want
https://mobile.twitter.com/traviskmadoff

#jailtravisk #arrestubersboard #uberISmoderndayslavery #uberhumantrafficking
#uber1981minimumwagein2018shutitdownnationalize

thats the ticket....

imagine what it would be if you took the 4% of drivers who succeed, screen, avoid 90% of requests and make $40 an hour does to that $3.37 an hour in 2018

what year was a $3.37 minimum wage legal? oh yeah 1981 foh imagine the percentage of drivers getting $1 an hour, .30 an hour, negative $1 an hour to come out to an average of $3.37 were talking 1920s wages, and this isnt slavery how


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## ubercrashdummy

*"If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," *

We must close this loophole which allows wealthy rideshare drivers to avoid taxes. Once we close these loopholes shielding more than $3.5B in profit, we will be able to direct that revenue towards social programs to subsidize rideshare customers living in poverty.


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## heynow321

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> That seems just about right but the problem with those studies is that they took data from people without knowing the type of drivers they were, IMO the numbers are much lower when you drive blindly and do everything uber and lyft tell you to do or say... play by the rules.
> 
> Drivers who abuse the system and know their spots make much more than 600 in profits, you can say 2 grand or so a month, still a pitance for all the juggling and risk it takes to pull it.


precisely. this is heavily dependent on which market you're in and how dumb you are/how well you game the system. if you're taking stool requests without some kind of serious quest incentive, you're an idiot and you're being exploited. if you hang around your airport all day, you're most likely an idiot. If you ignore long trips in favor of short ones, you're doing it wrong. if you only do boober or only do gryft (assuming both are in your market) you're a fool.

however, if you're in a market that is paying like 70 cents per mile, you're ****ed no matter what you do. go work at mcdonalds or deliver pizza or something.


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## MadTownUberD

So if Uber isn't profitable now, who's going to pay for an increase in driver wages? Yes it sounds great to just give everyone a raise but it has to come from somewhere.


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## gizmotheboss

I’ve been telling everybody all along and still people do it anyway.


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## Gone_in_60_seconds

Bob Reynolds said:


> The numbers are very close to what I found.
> 
> In fact, last month I did a test in Orlando with Lyft using their vehicle for 40 hours on the highest earnings times of the week. The goal was to make as much as possible driving for Lyft.
> 
> The test is detailed here:
> 
> https://uberpeople.net/threads/lyft-real-pay-and-real-experience-driving-their-vehicle.240062/


Have you try this experiment with UBER, as LYFT request are far fewer than UBER?


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## MadTownUberD

gizmotheboss said:


> I've been telling everybody all along and still people do it anyway.


After expenses I make about $3-10/hr in the summer and $12-15 in the winter (with Unicorn football Saturdays of $20-25/hr in the fall). Conclusion: I'm not going to drive much this summer, but I am more than happy to keep driving until the University students go home.

I wonder what % of drivers actually know their expenses?


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## 4.9 driver rating

Ready to strike yet..?? Ummmmmmm thats what I thought....keep feeding the wolves,ants.



MadTownUberD said:


> After expenses I make about $3-10/hr in the summer and $12-15 in the winter (with Unicorn football Saturdays of $20-25/hr in the fall). Conclusion: I'm not going to drive much this summer, but I am more than happy to keep driving until the University students go home.
> 
> I wonder what % of drivers actually know their expenses?


miniscule....you know why ??? Becuase this sorry ass company like Uber/Lyft make the average imbecile, (not me), like Walmart, convince these brainless idiots who cant even balanc a checkbook (unlike me), that this is THE greatest job in the world, which I NEVER bought for 1 second.



Ride-Share-Risk-Manager said:


> I think drivers should print off copies of the MIT report and have them available for passengers to read and reflect on. Uber and Lyft will do nothing to explain to passengers about how drivers are not making an acceptable living to provide this service. MIT is a globally respected research university. Our driver group is going to try handing out this report to every passenger for a few weeks as an experiment to see if it has any impact on tipping and driver ratings.


That will be a waste of time..you think the PAX are going to feel sorry for you ???lol....what a DUMB idea.


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## gizmotheboss

What gets me is that there's been a lot less people that have been scam by Pyramid scheme's and the states make laws to prevent it from happening yet the rideshareing companies scam a hell a lot more drivers and get away with it by the Politicians. *I believe no politician is going to advocate laws to prevent cheap inexpensive rides for the large masses in fear of not getting elected into office.*


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## tohunt4me

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.opb.org/news/article/np...g-a-median-profit-of-337-per-hour-study-says/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A study from MIT says most drivers are making less than minimum wage.
> 
> The vast majority of Uber and Lyft drivers are earning less than minimum wage and almost a third of them are actually losing money by driving, according to researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
> 
> A working paper by Stephen M. Zoepf, Stella Chen, Paa Adu and Gonzalo Pozo at MIT's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research says the median pretax profit earned from driving is $3.37 per hour after taking expenses into account. Seventy-four percent of drivers earn less than their state's minimum wage, the researchers say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Thirty percent of drivers "are actually losing money once vehicle expenses are included," the authors found.*_
> 
> The conclusions are based on surveys of more than 1,100 drivers who told researchers about their revenue, how many miles they drove and what type of car they used. The study's authors then combined that with typical costs associated with a certain car's insurance, maintenance, gas and depreciation, which was gathered in data from Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book and the Environmental Protection Agency.
> 
> Drivers earning the median amount of revenue are getting $0.59 per mile driven, researchers say, but expenses work out to $0.30 per mile, meaning a driver makes a median profit of $0.29 for each mile.
> 
> An Uber spokesperson responded to the finding in a statement to The Guardian:
> 
> "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."
> 
> The newspaper also noted, "Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job."
> 
> MIT authors also calculated that it's possible for billions of dollars in driver profits to be untaxed, because "nearly half of drivers can declare a loss on their taxes." Drivers are able to use the IRS standard mileage rate deduction to write off some of the costs of using a car for business. In 2016, that number was $0.54 per mile. "Because of this deduction, most ride-hailing drivers are able to declare profits that are substantially lower," researchers write.
> 
> "If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," they add.
> 
> The MIT researchers said 80 percent of drivers said they work less than 40 hours per week. An NPR/Marist poll in January found 1 in 5 jobs in the U.S. is held by a contract worker; contractors often juggle multiple part-time jobs.
> 
> Uber and Lyft both have "notoriously high" turnover rates among drivers. A report last year said just 4 percent of Uber drivers work for the company for at least a year.
> 
> NPR's Aarti Shahani reported in December that Lyft began a program to give drivers "access to discounted GED and college courses online" in a recruiting effort.
> 
> It was only last year that Uber introduced the option to tip drivers into its app for customers. Recode listed the initiatives Uber rolled out in 2017 in order to appeal to drivers, including 24-hour phone support, paid wait time and paying drivers if customers cancel after a certain amount of time.
> 
> Both Uber and Lyft have been fighting legal battles for years against initiatives to classify their drivers as "employees" instead of "independent contractors" - meaning drivers don't receive benefits like health care or sick leave.


Robot Cars will starve also !

How do you Reposess a Robot Car ?


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## SurgeWarrior

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.opb.org/news/article/np...g-a-median-profit-of-337-per-hour-study-says/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A study from MIT says most drivers are making less than minimum wage.
> 
> The vast majority of Uber and Lyft drivers are earning less than minimum wage and almost a third of them are actually losing money by driving, according to researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
> 
> A working paper by Stephen M. Zoepf, Stella Chen, Paa Adu and Gonzalo Pozo at MIT's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research says the median pretax profit earned from driving is $3.37 per hour after taking expenses into account. Seventy-four percent of drivers earn less than their state's minimum wage, the researchers say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Thirty percent of drivers "are actually losing money once vehicle expenses are included," the authors found.*_
> 
> The conclusions are based on surveys of more than 1,100 drivers who told researchers about their revenue, how many miles they drove and what type of car they used. The study's authors then combined that with typical costs associated with a certain car's insurance, maintenance, gas and depreciation, which was gathered in data from Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book and the Environmental Protection Agency.
> 
> Drivers earning the median amount of revenue are getting $0.59 per mile driven, researchers say, but expenses work out to $0.30 per mile, meaning a driver makes a median profit of $0.29 for each mile.
> 
> An Uber spokesperson responded to the finding in a statement to The Guardian:
> 
> "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."
> 
> The newspaper also noted, "Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job."
> 
> MIT authors also calculated that it's possible for billions of dollars in driver profits to be untaxed, because "nearly half of drivers can declare a loss on their taxes." Drivers are able to use the IRS standard mileage rate deduction to write off some of the costs of using a car for business. In 2016, that number was $0.54 per mile. "Because of this deduction, most ride-hailing drivers are able to declare profits that are substantially lower," researchers write.
> 
> "If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," they add.
> 
> The MIT researchers said 80 percent of drivers said they work less than 40 hours per week. An NPR/Marist poll in January found 1 in 5 jobs in the U.S. is held by a contract worker; contractors often juggle multiple part-time jobs.
> 
> Uber and Lyft both have "notoriously high" turnover rates among drivers. A report last year said just 4 percent of Uber drivers work for the company for at least a year.
> 
> NPR's Aarti Shahani reported in December that Lyft began a program to give drivers "access to discounted GED and college courses online" in a recruiting effort.
> 
> It was only last year that Uber introduced the option to tip drivers into its app for customers. Recode listed the initiatives Uber rolled out in 2017 in order to appeal to drivers, including 24-hour phone support, paid wait time and paying drivers if customers cancel after a certain amount of time.
> 
> Both Uber and Lyft have been fighting legal battles for years against initiatives to classify their drivers as "employees" instead of "independent contractors" - meaning drivers don't receive benefits like health care or sick leave.


As if Lyft and Uber didnt already have these figures. They did and continue to jam it into the drivers backside. I am sure the students at MIT would take to FB and Twitter to pitch a fit if the fares were doubled or tripled to match taxi fares.


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## gizmotheboss

What I believe about the rideshare companies rebuttal to the study. 

For every one reason not to become a diver. The rideshareing companies will give you a 100 False reasons to drive for them.


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## SurgeWarrior

PickEmUp said:


> Oversimplified and flawed methodology. My expenses (depreciation, fuel, maintence, repair, etc) are closer to $0.15 per mile. My net rate is $0.72 per mile plus $0.15 per minute. I can also deduct the miles driven between rides at $0.54 per mile.
> 
> Here is a hypothetical example of a 5 mile, 10 minute ride with 3 miles and 5 minutes driving to the passenger.
> 
> +$3.60 mileage
> +$1.50 time
> ----
> +$5.10 total income
> -$1.20 actual expenses @ $0.10 per mile
> ----
> +$3.90 net income after expenses
> 
> On that example trip, I can deduct $4.32 for mileage, which makes my income free of federal income tax. That amount also does not include tips.
> 
> That is $15.60 per hour net income (tax free, before tips) at base rate in city traffic, which for me is worst case scenario. Since most of my hours are worked Friday and Saturday evenings/nights or during other events that generate surges, that is a low number. Weekly averages of my net income are $25.00 - $40.00 per hour, tax free of course.


Where are your figures for the dead miles on the return?


----------



## tohunt4me

ubercrashdummy said:


> *"If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," *
> 
> We must close this loophole which allows wealthy rideshare drivers to avoid taxes. Once we close these loopholes shielding more than $3.5B in profit, we will be able to direct that revenue towards social programs to subsidize rideshare customers living in poverty.


I got Rebates Last year
Cost me over $300.00 to have taxes Professionally Done.
Not one penny paid
Yet money Back.
But i was merciful.
Did not claim all of my deductions.
Only $1.00 from state and $20.00 from Federal.


----------



## westsidebum

We need to stop trying to appeal to pax and the likes of Uber/lyft for relief to end this scam. The way forward is to organize and appeal to the appropriate regulating bodies such as state transportation boards, sec of commerce , labor and congress. Laws should be in place forcing companies like Uber to provide full disclosure on what they know are drivers real and potential earnings based on average costs, force them to recognize drivers as employees or give drivers the powers true independent contractors have which is the power to set their own rates.

A rideshare company called Sidecare now defunct gave drivers a suggested rate and allowed passengers and drivers the option to set rate and cost of individual ride. Most passenger offers for destinations were always way over what was the standard rate for Uber or lyft at that time.

Travis got a check for a billion dollars last month I'm sure he is grateful that he was allowed by all the regulatory agencies to scam and exploit a very vulnerable portion of the population called drivers many of which are minorities without viable alternatives.


----------



## tohunt4me

gizmotheboss said:


> What I believe about the rideshare companies rebuttal to the study.
> 
> For every one reason not to become a diver. The rideshareing companies will give you a 100 False reasons to drive for them.


A less than 4% RETENTION RATE !

Sewer workers have 96%

Grave diggers 98%

Garbage pickers 88%

Uber less than 4%

People would rather be shot at in Afghanistan than Drive for Uber !


----------



## gizmotheboss

PickEmUp said:


> Oversimplified and flawed methodology. My expenses (depreciation, fuel, maintence, repair, etc) are closer to $0.15 per mile. My net rate is $0.72 per mile plus $0.15 per minute. I can also deduct the miles driven between rides at $0.54 per mile.
> 
> Here is a hypothetical example of a 5 mile, 10 minute ride with 3 miles and 5 minutes driving to the passenger.
> 
> +$3.60 mileage
> +$1.50 time
> ----
> +$5.10 total income
> -$1.20 actual expenses @ $0.10 per mile
> ----
> +$3.90 net income after expenses
> 
> On that example trip, I can deduct $4.32 for mileage, which makes my income free of federal income tax. That amount also does not include tips.
> 
> That is $15.60 per hour net income (tax free, before tips) at base rate in city traffic, which for me is worst case scenario. Since most of my hours are worked Friday and Saturday evenings/nights or during other events that generate surges, that is a low number. Weekly averages of my net income are $25.00 - $40.00 per hour, tax free of course.


I wonder how many people on this website actually work for the rideshare companies to give us Disinformation.


----------



## tohunt4me

MadTownUberD said:


> So if Uber isn't profitable now, who's going to pay for an increase in driver wages? Yes it sounds great to just give everyone a raise but it has to come from somewhere.


4 RATE CUTS WONT MAKE PROFITS OR PAY DRIVERS.

POOR MANAGEMENT DIRECTIVE.


----------



## BurgerTiime

If drivers make are left with $3 an hour how in the hell is Uber expected to run a fleet of dirveless cars globally? Drivers take 100% of the brunt cost and left with storing the vehicle, maintenance, insurance, fuel, ect.
Minimum wage is hitting $15 for fast food places! That will be 5x more than being an Uber driver and not have to beat up your ride.
Uber will have new burdens like garages, mechanics, no doubt now have to carry commercial insurance 100% of the time, engineers and programmers. Maintenance people checking the cars on the return to garage, over seeing all those cars 24/7 for each citiy, yeah good luck!
By law have to cater to handicapped with rightfully equipped vehicles. Replace parts and tires and vehicles when they hit a certain mileage!
Then there's downtime for car washes and messes left behind, late and drunk passngers. What are they going to do, give passengers 1 min to arrive then leave?
The operating cost will be through the roof for autonomy.
The only way for self driving cars to have a chance, is if you owned a car company, like TESLA or Ford. Oh yeah, they're doing that so Uber is toast! Unless uber buys a motor company (money they don't have) their days are numbered.
If they can't even pay drivers a living wage who covers all the expenses, there's no way they will be able to cover the overhead even without the driver.
They need sheep , I mean drivers to work for scraps. Once they raise rates people will leave. They're just an app.


----------



## goneubering

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.opb.org/news/article/np...g-a-median-profit-of-337-per-hour-study-says/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A study from MIT says most drivers are making less than minimum wage.
> 
> The vast majority of Uber and Lyft drivers are earning less than minimum wage and almost a third of them are actually losing money by driving, according to researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
> 
> A working paper by Stephen M. Zoepf, Stella Chen, Paa Adu and Gonzalo Pozo at MIT's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research says the median pretax profit earned from driving is $3.37 per hour after taking expenses into account. Seventy-four percent of drivers earn less than their state's minimum wage, the researchers say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Thirty percent of drivers "are actually losing money once vehicle expenses are included," the authors found.*_
> 
> The conclusions are based on surveys of more than 1,100 drivers who told researchers about their revenue, how many miles they drove and what type of car they used. The study's authors then combined that with typical costs associated with a certain car's insurance, maintenance, gas and depreciation, which was gathered in data from Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book and the Environmental Protection Agency.
> 
> Drivers earning the median amount of revenue are getting $0.59 per mile driven, researchers say, but expenses work out to $0.30 per mile, meaning a driver makes a median profit of $0.29 for each mile.
> 
> An Uber spokesperson responded to the finding in a statement to The Guardian:
> 
> "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."
> 
> The newspaper also noted, "Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job."
> 
> MIT authors also calculated that it's possible for billions of dollars in driver profits to be untaxed, because "nearly half of drivers can declare a loss on their taxes." Drivers are able to use the IRS standard mileage rate deduction to write off some of the costs of using a car for business. In 2016, that number was $0.54 per mile. "Because of this deduction, most ride-hailing drivers are able to declare profits that are substantially lower," researchers write.
> 
> "If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," they add.
> 
> The MIT researchers said 80 percent of drivers said they work less than 40 hours per week. An NPR/Marist poll in January found 1 in 5 jobs in the U.S. is held by a contract worker; contractors often juggle multiple part-time jobs.
> 
> Uber and Lyft both have "notoriously high" turnover rates among drivers. A report last year said just 4 percent of Uber drivers work for the company for at least a year.
> 
> NPR's Aarti Shahani reported in December that Lyft began a program to give drivers "access to discounted GED and college courses online" in a recruiting effort.
> 
> It was only last year that Uber introduced the option to tip drivers into its app for customers. Recode listed the initiatives Uber rolled out in 2017 in order to appeal to drivers, including 24-hour phone support, paid wait time and paying drivers if customers cancel after a certain amount of time.
> 
> Both Uber and Lyft have been fighting legal battles for years against initiatives to classify their drivers as "employees" instead of "independent contractors" - meaning drivers don't receive benefits like health care or sick leave.


I'm surprised only 30% of drivers are losing money. It seems like that number would be much higher.


----------



## Ride-Share-Risk-Manager

4.9 driver rating said:


> Ready to strike yet..?? Ummmmmmm thats what I thought....keep feeding the wolves,ants.
> 
> miniscule....you know why ??? Becuase this sorry ass company like Uber/Lyft make the average imbecile, (not me), like Walmart, convince these brainless idiots who cant even balanc a checkbook (unlike me), that this is THE greatest job in the world, which I NEVER bought for 1 second.
> 
> That will be a waste of time..you think the PAX are going to feel sorry for you ???lol....what a DUMB idea.


Well, you don't seem to have any ideas for increasing driver income but its very easy to criticize our idea without of course trying it to see if it might work or generate some additional tips.


----------



## MadTownUberD

Forget organizing, asking the nanny state to punish Uber for you, etc...these are at best pushing on a rope and at worst counter-productive. *Just find something else to do with your time if you don't like it.*

I never expected this gig to be more than extra income. The name "Rideshare" kind of implies that you're generously giving someone a ride for enough money to ensure your expenses are covered, plus a little more for your troubles. "Cab", "Limousine", and "Livery" are stronger terms that imply higher compensation...at least the way I see it.


----------



## tohunt4me

BurgerTiime said:


> If drivers make are left with $3 an hour how in the hell is Uber expected to run a fleet of dirveless cars globally? Drivers take 100% of the brunt cost and left with storing the vehicle, maintenance, insurance, fuel, ect.
> Minimum wage is hitting $15 for fast food places! That will be 5x more than being an Uber driver and not have to beat up your ride.
> Uber will have new burdens like garages, mechanics, no doubt now have to carry commercial insurance 100% of the time, engineers and programmers. Maintenance people checking the cars on the return to garage, over seeing all those cars 24/7 for each citiy, yeah good luck!
> By law have to cater to handicapped with rightfully equipped vehicles. Replace parts and tires and vehicles when they hit a certain mileage!
> Then there's downtime for car washes and messes left behind, late and drunk passngers. What are they going to do, give passengers 1 min to arrive then leave?
> The operating cost will be through the roof for autonomy.
> The only way for self driving cars to have a chance, is if you owned a car company, like TESLA or Ford. Oh yeah, they're doing that so Uber is toast! Unless uber buys a motor company (money they don't have) their days are numbered.
> If they can't even pay drivers a living wage who covers all the expenses, there's no way they will be able to cover the overhead even without the driver.
> They need sheep , I mean drivers to work for scraps. Once they raise rates people will leave. They're just an app.


They PLAN to allow INVESTORS to purchase fleets.
Investors will maintain the fleets.
Uber plans to pay NOTHING !
Just like with us !
Investors will have to manage the costs of self driving cars.

Of Course
THERE WONT BE RATE CUTS THEN !

Think " U HAUL FRANCHISE"

Investors buy the fleets.
Investors buy the storage properties.
Investors do the upkeep and maintenence.
U HAUL COLLECTS A FEE.


----------



## gizmotheboss

MadTownUberD said:


> Forget organizing, asking the nanny state to punish Uber for you, etc...these are at best pushing on a rope and at worst counter-productive. *Just find something else to do with your time if you don't like it.*
> 
> I never expected this gig to be more than extra income. The name "Rideshare" kind of implies that you're generously giving someone a ride for enough money to ensure your expenses are covered, plus a little more for your troubles. "Cab", "Limousine", and "Livery" are stronger terms that imply higher compensation...at least the way I see it.


Yet the ride sharing companies get away with under cutting the Texie cab industry. With a little expense of their own.


----------



## tohunt4me

gizmotheboss said:


> Yet the ride sharing companies get away with under cutting the Texie cab industry. With a little expense of their own.


Taxis are history.

Just like Independant FARMERS .

REMEMBER THEM ?

Now we have corporate farms.
Controlling food.
Controlling price.
Owning all of the Land.
Controlling the Law !

Will be the same with taxis.

Already meat will be grown in vats.
It has begun.
G.M.O. foods.
Synthetic fertilizers.
Then they will thin the HUMAN HERD.
NO NEED FOR US. WITH ROBOT LABOR.


----------



## RamzFanz

PickEmUp said:


> Oversimplified and flawed methodology. My expenses (depreciation, fuel, maintence, repair, etc) are closer to $0.15 per mile. My net rate is $0.72 per mile plus $0.15 per minute. I can also deduct the miles driven between rides at $0.54 per mile.
> 
> Here is a hypothetical example of a 5 mile, 10 minute ride with 3 miles and 5 minutes driving to the passenger.
> 
> +$3.60 mileage
> +$1.50 time
> ----
> +$5.10 total income
> -$1.20 actual expenses @ $0.10 per mile
> ----
> +$3.90 net income after expenses
> 
> On that example trip, I can deduct $4.32 for mileage, which makes my income free of federal income tax. That amount also does not include tips.
> 
> That is $15.60 per hour net income (tax free, before tips) at base rate in city traffic, which for me is worst case scenario. Since most of my hours are worked Friday and Saturday evenings/nights or during other events that generate surges, that is a low number. Weekly averages of my net income are $25.00 - $40.00 per hour, tax free of course.


Yeah, it looks flawed. It's impossible to say for certain without seeing the underlying study, but it can't be accurate.

Can anyone even explain how they have so many drivers at zero income? Is this hourly taking into consideration that I have the Uber app on while at home doing other work and not even attempting to earn an hourly wage with Uber? Did they consider the sunk costs of car ownership not being costs of Ubering? Why did they use estimations of costs instead of actual and how were these vetted?


----------



## tohunt4me

RamzFanz said:


> Yeah, it looks flawed. It's impossible to say for certain without seeing the underlying study, but it can't be accurate.
> 
> Can anyone even explain how they have so many drivers at zero income? Is this hourly taking into consideration that I have the Uber app on while at home doing other work and not even attempting to earn an hourly wage with Uber? Did they consider the sunk costs of car ownership not being costs of Ubering? Why did they use estimations of costs instead of actual and how were these vetted?


Its accurate.
Ask those who LIVE IT !


----------



## BurgerTiime

tohunt4me said:


> They PLAN to allow INVESTORS to purchase fleets.
> Investors will maintain the fleets.
> Uber plans to pay NOTHING !
> Just like with us !
> Investors will have to manage the costs of self driving cars.
> 
> Of Course
> THERE WONT BE RATE CUTS THEN !
> 
> Think " U HAUL FRANCHISE"
> 
> Investors buy the fleets.
> Investors buy the storage properties.
> Investors do the upkeep and maintenence.
> U HAUL COLLECTS A FEE.


What investors are left? None! They will have no choice but to IPO or it's dead man walking. Think the public will pour money into Uber when they have so much negative publicity? We'll have to wait and see. I wouldn't.


----------



## tohunt4me

gizmotheboss said:


> Yet the ride sharing companies get away with under cutting the Texie cab industry. With a little expense of their own.


There WONT even be " TAXI AID" BENEFITS given for taxi companies.
Like theyve done for the FARMERS since the 80's!


----------



## 1.5xorbust

The truth will set you free. Little wonder that Uber Corporate is contesting the findings.


----------



## tohunt4me

BurgerTiime said:


> What investors are left? None! They will have no choice but to IPO or it's dead man walking. Think the public will pour money into Uber when they have so many negative publicity? We'll have to wait and see. I wouldn't.


It PROMOTES the GLOBALIST AGENDA 
Of AGENDA 21.

IT WILL BE FUNDED.

Global Fascism.

PUBLIC RISK
PRIVATE GAIN


----------



## RamzFanz

tohunt4me said:


> Its accurate.
> Ask those who LIVE IT !


I live it and I clear $18+ an hour after expenses when I'm working hourly. I could up that significantly if I went back to working surging bar closings and events, but I prefer not to.

Now, if this is counting couch lizards who don't have any strategy or experience, then maybe, but that would be a flawed study.

The important question is how much_ can_ you make doing Uber and Lyft. If they aren't making sound business decisions, that's on them.


----------



## rembrandt

Can ordinary Uber drivers calculate or understand loss/profit ? If Uber was really profitable who would work at McDonald’s and Walmart?


----------



## tohunt4me

rembrandt said:


> Can ordinary Uber drivers calculate or understand loss/profit ? If Uber was really profitable who would work at McDonald's and Walmart?


I make more delivering pizzas.
Tips


----------



## RamzFanz

rembrandt said:


> Can ordinary Uber drivers calculate or understand loss/profit ?


Yes. Will they? That's on them.



rembrandt said:


> If Uber was really profitable who would work at McDonald's and Walmart?



People who are scared to be a driver.
People who don't want to be self employed.
People without cars.
People without the right cars.
Why do you assume many fast food and retail workers don't also Uber?


----------



## BurgerTiime

littlegoodwolf said:


> i think circumstances have to be examined as well. Right now I am cash poor but the equity in my car is high. I am using that equity to squeeze out the cash that I need right now and doing so at my own hours etc... The fact that I can do it tax free bc the mileage deduction outweighs the income is an added bonus. its just what works for me at this moment and lets me pursue a cash-poor life option for a while.


But keep in mind your car is deprecating. Factor in replacement cost and wham! 
This is also why the vast majority of drivers are riding dirty and don't get the recommended ride-share insurance or just outright lie to their insurance company. They can't afford it. Plain and simple.


----------



## MadTownUberD

RamzFanz said:


> Now, if this is counting couch lizards who don't have any strategy or experience, then maybe, but that would be a flawed study.


THIS!!! Sometimes I will go online in the small town where I live and do work on my laptop etc. Of course there are like 1-2 pings per day, if that, so it really brings down my average hourly earnings for the week (most of which driving hours I spend pounding the pavement in a larger city).


----------



## RamzFanz

BurgerTiime said:


> But keep in mind your car is deprecating. Factor in replacement cost and wham!


You don't factor in both replacement cost and depreciation. That's double dipping. It's one or the other.

When I started Ubering my van was valued at $5,000. This is the last year of eligibility. It will be worth at minimum $1,000 at the end of this year if it is still in running condition. That's $4,000 in depreciation over 3 years. Not bad at all.


----------



## westsidebum

MadTownUberD said:


> Forget organizing, asking the nanny state to punish Uber for you, etc...these are at best pushing on a rope and at worst counter-productive. *Just find something else to do with your time if you don't like it.*
> 
> I never expected this gig to be more than extra income. The name "Rideshare" kind of implies that you're generously giving someone a ride for enough money to ensure your expenses are covered, plus a little more for your troubles. "Cab", "Limousine", and "Livery" are stronger terms that imply higher compensation...at least the way I see it.


Both companies have abused hard fought for laws designed to protect workers. As more and more companies outsource and misclassify workers as contractors there are not going to be many alternatives to this type of corporate slavery. Drivers should absolutely leave or work less but that does not mean you can't also push back against this type of abuse to make sure the abusers don't get away with it and so corporations don't cont. To adopt this as a model.


----------



## tohunt4me

westsidebum said:


> Both companies have abused hard fought for laws designed to protect workers. As more and more companies outsource and misclassify workers as contractors there are not going to be many alternatives to this type of corporate slavery. Drivers should absolutely leave or work less but that does not mean you can't also push back against this type of abuse to make sure the abusers don't get away with it and so corporations don't cont. To adopt this as a model.


Theyve set back labor protection laws by 100 years in America.

EXPLOITED.


----------



## RamzFanz

BurgerTiime said:


> This is also why the vast majority of drivers are riding dirty and don't get the recommended ride-share insurance or just outright lie to their insurance company. They can't afford it. Plain and simple.


TNC insurance in most places is an insignificant cost. If a driver is not paying pennies a day for proper insurance, that's on them. Assuming they don't or can't is just that, an assumption.


----------



## goneubering

Steve Mason was just talking about this shocking study. After reviewing the low earnings he said “Be Nice To Your Uber Driver.” He’s on 710 KSPN which has a large audience with the very popular Mason and Ireland Show.


----------



## UBERPROcolorado

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.opb.org/news/article/np...g-a-median-profit-of-337-per-hour-study-says/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A study from MIT says most drivers are making less than minimum wage.
> 
> The vast majority of Uber and Lyft drivers are earning less than minimum wage and almost a third of them are actually losing money by driving, according to researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
> 
> A working paper by Stephen M. Zoepf, Stella Chen, Paa Adu and Gonzalo Pozo at MIT's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research says the median pretax profit earned from driving is $3.37 per hour after taking expenses into account. Seventy-four percent of drivers earn less than their state's minimum wage, the researchers say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Thirty percent of drivers "are actually losing money once vehicle expenses are included," the authors found.*_
> 
> The conclusions are based on surveys of more than 1,100 drivers who told researchers about their revenue, how many miles they drove and what type of car they used. The study's authors then combined that with typical costs associated with a certain car's insurance, maintenance, gas and depreciation, which was gathered in data from Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book and the Environmental Protection Agency.
> 
> Drivers earning the median amount of revenue are getting $0.59 per mile driven, researchers say, but expenses work out to $0.30 per mile, meaning a driver makes a median profit of $0.29 for each mile.
> 
> An Uber spokesperson responded to the finding in a statement to The Guardian:
> 
> "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."
> 
> The newspaper also noted, "Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job."
> 
> MIT authors also calculated that it's possible for billions of dollars in driver profits to be untaxed, because "nearly half of drivers can declare a loss on their taxes." Drivers are able to use the IRS standard mileage rate deduction to write off some of the costs of using a car for business. In 2016, that number was $0.54 per mile. "Because of this deduction, most ride-hailing drivers are able to declare profits that are substantially lower," researchers write.
> 
> "If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," they add.
> 
> The MIT researchers said 80 percent of drivers said they work less than 40 hours per week. An NPR/Marist poll in January found 1 in 5 jobs in the U.S. is held by a contract worker; contractors often juggle multiple part-time jobs.
> 
> Uber and Lyft both have "notoriously high" turnover rates among drivers. A report last year said just 4 percent of Uber drivers work for the company for at least a year.
> 
> NPR's Aarti Shahani reported in December that Lyft began a program to give drivers "access to discounted GED and college courses online" in a recruiting effort.
> 
> It was only last year that Uber introduced the option to tip drivers into its app for customers. Recode listed the initiatives Uber rolled out in 2017 in order to appeal to drivers, including 24-hour phone support, paid wait time and paying drivers if customers cancel after a certain amount of time.
> 
> Both Uber and Lyft have been fighting legal battles for years against initiatives to classify their drivers as "employees" instead of "independent contractors" - meaning drivers don't receive benefits like health care or sick leave.


FACTS:

Uber is simply trying to keep the chain gang of drivers on the job long enough to usher in autonomous cars (A.C). Then bye bye drivers.

Uber is aware that A.C. have issues that are yet to be resolved. The greatest is the HACKING of individual cars and/or the entire platform.

Uber's technology is actually very primitive & simple to hack. But that is true of almost all internet based programs. Even the Pentagon can and has been breached.

Uber must also consider how many enemies they have created since their inception. Uber drivers and cabbies top my list. Hate amongst drivers that feel they have been screwed by Uber is at an all time high.

Once A.C. hit the roads in mass, riders are going to be faced with a dilemma.....especially once the first hack results in injury or death. Do I save the money and ride or do I save my life.

Then there is the nasty law suit that claims Uber aquired the technology illegally. There is a reasonable chance that Uber could be barred from even using the technology. Then what will Uber do?

I have always found in life that if you are honest and treat people fairly and with dignity, your relationships will be positive and fruitful. I still drive for Uber because I enjoy it. I know that Uber is not honest and treats drivers and passengers like cattle. But I treat my riders with respect and dignity. That is why I am moderately successful. The time may come that ridershare drivers are no longer needed and I will move on. In the mean time, it is kinda fun to watch the games being played.

Drive safe


----------



## SurgeWarrior

PickEmUp said:


> There are no dead miles just accepting the next desirable ping. The dead miles preceding the hypothetical ride were added to these numbers, therefore any dead miles after would be added to the next ride.


Yeah, No thats not quite the way it works. Thats ok, ill move on.


----------



## RamzFanz

SurgeWarrior said:


> Yeah, No thats not quite the way it works. Thats ok, ill move on.


No, that is exactly how it works.


----------



## Jo3030

Life changing money!


----------



## SurgeWarrior

RamzFanz said:


> No, that is exactly how it works.


Take an advanced math class and a few statistics courses and come back with a better answer..at face value, its simply wrong that time driving without a rider is still consuming fuel, expenses and time. Lets try this:

a ride which takes 35 minutes to complete from time of ping, grosses approx 10.00, you only spend 30 minutes with the rider..your return home or back to an area of customer population..is another 30 minutes.

Your hourly isnt 20.00
Its 5!
Now subtract expenses and your less than 4.00

20 maybe potential earnings but as the study and average drivers show, its more likely 5 before expenses not 20.
Got it?


----------



## RaleighNick

tohunt4me said:


> They PLAN to allow INVESTORS to purchase fleets.
> Investors will maintain the fleets.
> Uber plans to pay NOTHING !
> Just like with us !
> Investors will have to manage the costs of self driving cars.
> 
> Of Course
> THERE WONT BE RATE CUTS THEN !
> 
> Think " U HAUL FRANCHISE"
> 
> Investors buy the fleets.
> Investors buy the storage properties.
> Investors do the upkeep and maintenence.
> U HAUL COLLECTS A FEE.


This, also think farmers raising chickens or something. They are encouraged to borrow a bunch of money to pay for all the necessary equipment, big companies control the chicken from hatch to slaughter, chicken raiser gets caught in debt and making far less than ever promised. 
Same thing happening with Uber on a very small scale per individual. 
And with self driving cars someone else will foot the bill. Uber is about control. Plain and simple.


----------



## gizmotheboss

May be some day I can be one of many Personalities of autonomous driving force just to be Copyrighted by the big corporations stealing my Idea.


----------



## 1.5xorbust

gizmotheboss said:


> May be some day I can be one of many Personalities of autonomous driving force just to be Copyrighted by the big corporations stealing my Idea.


Is it five o'clock there?


----------



## RaleighNick

westsidebum said:


> Both companies have abused hard fought for laws designed to protect workers. As more and more companies outsource and misclassify workers as contractors there are not going to be many alternatives to this type of corporate slavery. Drivers should absolutely leave or work less but that does not mean you can't also push back against this type of abuse to make sure the abusers don't get away with it and so corporations don't cont. To adopt this as a model.


Yes yes yes. 
I swear every time someone says "if you don't like it don't drive" in response to someone pointing out the exploitation I want put my fist through a window.


----------



## ABC123DEF

gizmotheboss said:


> What I believe about the rideshare companies rebuttal to the study.
> 
> For every one reason not to become a diver. The rideshareing companies will give you a 100 False reasons to drive for them.


Exactly...they have to keep the scheme going somehow. The "show" must go on.



RamzFanz said:


> I live it and I clear $18+ an hour after expenses when I'm working hourly. I could up that significantly if I went back to working surging bar closings and events, but I prefer not to.
> 
> Now, if this is counting couch lizards who don't have any strategy or experience, then maybe, but that would be a flawed study.
> 
> The important question is how much_ can_ you make doing Uber and Lyft. If they aren't making sound business decisions, that's on them.


Uh...surge still exists?!


----------



## UberHammer

Uber's response to this is insane. They say the methods used in the study are flawed.

Well, let's assume a driver has $0.00 costs per mile and see what it produces.

If getting $0.59/mile from the fares results in $3.37/hr when the costs per mile are $0.30/mile, then getting $0.59/mile from the fares results in $6.86/hr when the costs per mile are $0.00/mile (3.37/0.29*0.59=6.86).

So even if the driver has ZERO car costs, they still make less than minimum wage.

Uber is suffering from two problems: 1) their rates are too low; and 2) they think a driver being online waiting for a ping is a driver that is "not working". So they don't include that time in what they believe a driver makes per hour.


----------



## RaleighNick

RamzFanz said:


> Yeah, it looks flawed. It's impossible to say for certain without seeing the underlying study, but it can't be accurate.
> 
> Can anyone even explain how they have so many drivers at zero income? Is this hourly taking into consideration that I have the Uber app on while at home doing other work and not even attempting to earn an hourly wage with Uber? Did they consider the sunk costs of car ownership not being costs of Ubering? Why did they use estimations of costs instead of actual and how were these vetted?


I understand your objections, and I believe that you make the money that say you do, but you are an outlier. Something to be proud of I guess.


----------



## ABC123DEF

Jo3030 said:


> Life changing money!


You got THAT right...it certainly changed mine!!


----------



## Bob Reynolds

Gone_in_60_seconds said:


> Have you try this experiment with UBER, as LYFT request are far fewer than UBER?


I have driven for Uber. Although I did not do a Uber test, the numbers for Uber are going to be about the same and maybe a little less because Uber riders tend not to tip.

Keep in mind that during this 40 hour test, I provided 50 rides. I also hit the completion bonuses. It was steady and there was not a lot of down time. Lyft is pretty busy these days. It's not like it used to be. It fact it would be just about impossible to complete any more rides than what I did. This equaled out to 1.25 rides per hour in the Orlando metro area.


----------



## UberHammer

For disclosure sake, I still drive for Uber and Lyft, but learned years ago that I need to average above $1.00/mile for all miles (dead and billed) for it to produce the profit that makes it worth it to me. I track it religiously, and this week I'm currently at $1.21/mile. But I haven't found a way to make over $1.00/mile for 40 hours a week in my market. Doing it full time always put me well below $1.00, usually around the $0.70/mile range. So I drive part time only during times where I can produce more than $1.00/mile (when Select requests are more frequent and surge occurs). Given 80% of ubers trips are done by the 20% most active drivers, most of uber's trips are being done by full time drivers, and I find it really easy to believe they only get $0.59/mile especially given some market rates are well below mine ($1.16/mile for UberX). And I find it easy to believe that $0.59/mile produces less than minimum wage after their costs. Like I said, I found anything less than $1.00 isn't worth it. The MIT math seems in line with mine. Really the only way to make the numbers look good is to assume that time online but not on a trip is not time working.


----------



## RamzFanz

SurgeWarrior said:


> Take an advanced math class and a few statistics courses and come back with a better answer..at face value, its simply wrong that time driving without a rider is still consuming fuel, expenses and time. Lets try this:
> 
> a ride which takes 35 minutes to complete from time of ping, grosses approx 10.00, you only spend 30 minutes with the rider..your return home or back to an area of customer population..is another 30 minutes.
> 
> Your hourly isnt 20.00
> Its 5!
> Now subtract expenses and your less than 4.00
> 
> 20 maybe potential earnings but as the study and average drivers show, its more likely 5 before expenses not 20.
> Got it?


Uhh, no, not in this instance. He was giving an example of a single ride and included the dead miles before the ride. You would not also include the deadheading after, that would be a part of the next ride. Your example doesn't address what he said which you debated.

"The dead miles preceding the hypothetical ride were added to these numbers, therefore any dead miles after would be added to the next ride."

This is correct in this example of a single ride. Take an advanced reading comprehension class and come back and see your error.


----------



## I have nuts

They could have saved their money and just paid me half of what cost to do the study and I would told them the same thing as somebody that use to drive.



getawaycar said:


> It's sad when workers at Walmart and McDonalds are making more than you.


 And they don't have to tear up their cars in the process.


----------



## gizmotheboss

This ain’t rocket science


----------



## Doughie

littlegoodwolf said:


> i think circumstances have to be examined as well. Right now I am cash poor but the equity in my car is high. I am using that equity to squeeze out the cash that I need right now and doing so at my own hours etc... The fact that I can do it tax free bc the mileage deduction outweighs the income is an added bonus. its just what works for me at this moment and lets me pursue a cash-poor life option for a while.


The only reason it's tax free is because it's not earned income.


----------



## El Janitor

Well when you factor in tires, oil changes, washes, and all other related maintenance it's probably pretty close.


----------



## getawaycar

The thing is it could have been a decent way for people to make extra money, but the businessmen running the companies are way too greedy to let that happen. They will never stop seeking ways to exploit and squeeze every last nickel from the drivers. That has always been the nature of the taxi business. Which explains why 90% of taxi drivers have historically been brown-skin immigrants who can barely speak English because they are easier to exploit, doing a job few Americans want to do.

Until Uber came along with its ultra-slick marketing that made it cool and hip to be a glorified taxi driver. So now they got a lot white people driving for them and learning firsthand what it feels like to be an exploited immigrant taxi driver lol.


----------



## RaleighUber

MadTownUberD said:


> So if Uber isn't profitable now, who's going to pay for an increase in driver wages? Yes it sounds great to just give everyone a raise but it has to come from somewhere.


Psst...the increase will come from higher rates charged to customers. I know that is unthinkable, but it's what's required for rideshare to be profitable for anyone.


----------



## transporter007

littlegoodwolf said:


> i think circumstances have to be examined as well. Right now I am cash poor but the equity in my car is high. I am using that equity to squeeze out the cash that I need right now and doing so at my own hours etc... The fact that I can do it tax free bc the mileage deduction outweighs the income is an added bonus. its just what works for me at this moment and lets me pursue a cash-poor life option for a while.


*It sounds like we're Not earning money, but are borrowing money *
*against an asset. temporary solution But unsustainable *


----------



## littlegoodwolf

yes to that ^^. for now it works. but soon I will have to grow up again and find a full time gig with big girl $. then I wont have to uber unless I want to buy a pretty car that is above my payscale. then I can start all over again trading car equity for rides.


----------



## Leo1983

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.opb.org/news/article/np...g-a-median-profit-of-337-per-hour-study-says/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A study from MIT says most drivers are making less than minimum wage.
> 
> The vast majority of Uber and Lyft drivers are earning less than minimum wage and almost a third of them are actually losing money by driving, according to researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
> 
> A working paper by Stephen M. Zoepf, Stella Chen, Paa Adu and Gonzalo Pozo at MIT's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research says the median pretax profit earned from driving is $3.37 per hour after taking expenses into account. Seventy-four percent of drivers earn less than their state's minimum wage, the researchers say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Thirty percent of drivers "are actually losing money once vehicle expenses are included," the authors found.*_
> 
> The conclusions are based on surveys of more than 1,100 drivers who told researchers about their revenue, how many miles they drove and what type of car they used. The study's authors then combined that with typical costs associated with a certain car's insurance, maintenance, gas and depreciation, which was gathered in data from Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book and the Environmental Protection Agency.
> 
> Drivers earning the median amount of revenue are getting $0.59 per mile driven, researchers say, but expenses work out to $0.30 per mile, meaning a driver makes a median profit of $0.29 for each mile.
> 
> An Uber spokesperson responded to the finding in a statement to The Guardian:
> 
> "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."
> 
> The newspaper also noted, "Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job."
> 
> MIT authors also calculated that it's possible for billions of dollars in driver profits to be untaxed, because "nearly half of drivers can declare a loss on their taxes." Drivers are able to use the IRS standard mileage rate deduction to write off some of the costs of using a car for business. In 2016, that number was $0.54 per mile. "Because of this deduction, most ride-hailing drivers are able to declare profits that are substantially lower," researchers write.
> 
> "If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," they add.
> 
> The MIT researchers said 80 percent of drivers said they work less than 40 hours per week. An NPR/Marist poll in January found 1 in 5 jobs in the U.S. is held by a contract worker; contractors often juggle multiple part-time jobs.
> 
> What's worse, approximately 75% of drivers earn less than the minimum wage in their state.
> 
> Uber and Lyft both have "notoriously high" turnover rates among drivers. A report last year said just 4 percent of Uber drivers work for the company for at least a year.
> 
> NPR's Aarti Shahani reported in December that Lyft began a program to give drivers "access to discounted GED and college courses online" in a recruiting effort.
> 
> It was only last year that Uber introduced the option to tip drivers into its app for customers. Recode listed the initiatives Uber rolled out in 2017 in order to appeal to drivers, including 24-hour phone support, paid wait time and paying drivers if customers cancel after a certain amount of time.
> 
> 'This business model is not currently sustainable,' Stephen Zoepf, a co-author of the paper, told the Guardian.
> 
> 'The companies are losing money and the businesses are being subsidized by [venture capital] money'
> 
> 'Drivers are essentially subsidizing it by working for very low wages,' he added.
> 
> Both Uber and Lyft have been fighting legal battles for years against initiatives to classify their drivers as "employees" instead of "independent contractors" - meaning drivers don't receive benefits like health care or sick leave.


Yup. Uber calculates deductions as income. Ripping off Americans in every way possible. Government is in their pocket.


----------



## KenLV

MadTownUberD said:


> So if Uber isn't profitable now, who's going to pay for an increase in driver wages? Yes it sounds great to just give everyone a raise but it has to come from somewhere.


Are these serious questions?

It's paid for the same way most businesses pay for an increase in wages/expenses - they pass it on to the customer.

For rideshare, that means: Higher rates paid by riders.

Riders pay less than a dollar a mile in most markets (for X and regular Lyft). It could double and STILL be lower than cabs. Here it could almost triple.

Are you going to lose some customers?

Of course. But the ones you lose are customers you didn't want. They literally didn't value your service/business.


----------



## transporter007

RaleighUber said:


> Psst...the increase will come from higher rates charged to customers. I know that is unthinkable, but it's what's required for rideshare to be profitable for anyone.


Uber has zero reason to increase driver earning. They'll increase booking fees to go directly into their pocket.
After all, why care about drivers when u literally have an unending supply and your future business plans don't even include the driver.


----------



## MadTownUberD

KenLV said:


> Are these serious questions?
> 
> It's paid for the same way most businesses pay for an increase in wages/expenses - they pass it on to the customer.
> 
> For rideshare, that means: Higher rates paid by riders.
> 
> Riders pay less than a dollar a mile in most markets (for X and regular Lyft). It could double and STILL be lower than cabs. Here it could almost triple.
> 
> Are you going to lose some customers?
> 
> Of course. But the ones you lose are customers you didn't want. They literally didn't value your service/business.


If Uber doubled its rates, it would lose a significant number of trip requests...perhaps up to half. Then the remaining drivers -- who are now getting paid a little more per trip -- would all be scrounging for far fewer trips...and perhaps bringing home about as much as they were before the hypothetical rate hike.

Once you penetrate a market and expand market share you can't just raise prices without repercussions. Even a monopoly has to present its services as a viable alternative to "doing it yourself", aka walking/biking/etc.


----------



## whiterabbit

I don't think the study is deeply flawed, I think it is slightly flawed. Awfully close to the truth though. I only drive LYFT. A few points -
1. Location, location, location. If you live in the wrong state, or the wrong part of a state, you probably will not make any money no matter what. I've worked several locations in Michigan and they all vary. Some areas will be completely dead and unless you are going to commute an hour or more to someplace good - not worth it. (And if you have to drive a distance to a good area - usually never worth it).
2. I think anyone that tries to do this as a full time job - a career - is insane and making a big mistake. Especially if your young. Unless you are in desperate need of cash or this is a short time fix take just about any other job you can get. I think a lot of managers of fast food joints started as employees and moved up. You won't move up here. Your livelihood, such as it is, hangs by a thread as well. Most folks are nice and interesting to talk to. Some just want a quiet ride and some really are paxholes and can end your 'career' in an instant. You will hate them for it but come to thank them later in life.
3. So I have driven full time for about a year, but not as a career and I make decent money and for the most part enjoy it. If I had to depend on this and this was my only income . . . . wow. A part of me admires younger drivers that try this as a full time gig, but, see point 2 above.
4. The way ride share is right now - it's gravy. But you can't live on gravy. If you have other income, other resources, it can be gravy. So I disagree with a previous post. It can be a decent way to make extra money. I'm retired, this is extra income. The mileage deduction is HUGE and can offset income from other sources (if a loss) if you treat it as a business. If the IRS deems it a hobby your losses can only eclipse your profit not other income. Most people don't get up at 5am and drive other folks around town for 40+ hours as a hobby so keep meticulous records, a separate checking account and credit card for all your gas and you should be good. A good week, which I have hit many times, I will do about 1K . My 'company' charge card which has all gas and car maintenance charges runs 500-800 a month. When U of M is out I will drive a lot less and make a lot less. Again, it is gravy and wonderful. If I had to live on it, it would suck.
5. Hourly rate. So it is summer. I'm setting out in the back yard on the patio drinking coffee. It's after 9am so all of the work commutes are over with and I turn on the app. At 11am I get a ping and it's nearby and I am remote enough that it will almost always be a decent long trip into the city or to the airport. If it is more than 10 minutes away? My avatar is watching the clock count down to zero. So it is an airport trip and my take is 25-30 and it takes me about an hour round trip. So what is my hourly rate? Keep in mind that I will still be drinking coffee and reading a book - or this forum - regardless. I won't make much on a slow summer day but it is not all that stressful either.
6. It is unfortunate that you cannot make a career out of this, but I really don't think that is possible. It's too bad as I think this is a needed useful service. I think the way this is going to play out, Travis forced out of UBER and laughing all the way to the bank and running up 10K bar tabs, LYFT trying to get an IPO out ASAP while VC money keeps coming in - after that those folks will be rich(er) as well and can let the companies fail as they join Travis at the bar. After LYFT goes public and new management comes in as original investors try to get money back out of it - that will be interesting to watch. I hope they come up with a model that works but I don't think it will be self driving cars.
7. Yeah, I got off topic. The study says things are really, really bad when they are only really bad. Time to get another drink.

'This is a great country. Years ago I started out with nothing and was able to work myself up to a state of extreme poverty' - Groucho Marx


----------



## Doughie

RedANT said:


> The flaw in this is assuming that everyone should be making the same amount of money. Income varies greatly depending on market, the hours you work, the area of town you work, your driving habits, etc., and just because some people suck at making money driving doesn't mean that we all do.
> 
> This week I worked 17.5 hrs, I did 31 runs, drove 718 miles and I made $525 Uber + $54 Lyft + $37 cash tips. ($616, or $35.20 /hr gross) Gas cost me $46, assume I set aside $25 for oil changes and put $100 away for a ~$10k replacement vehicle every 2 years.
> 
> $616 - 46 gas - 25 oil changes - 100 savings = $445 / 17.5 = $25.42 /hr NET.
> 
> I know people will scream about depreciation, which is why I figured in $100 /wk for replacement or repairs. Likewise, people will say that I should figure in taxes, however even in private employment, taxes are NOT generally figured into stated salaries.
> 
> Maybe I'm doing it wrong, or maybe others are. The difference is that I'm ok with the above. As a retiree, it sure beats sitting at home watching TV.


$25 per hour for a savvy driver sounds about right if you're in Seattle. If you're in Orlando the pay is half. Your $616 would be close to $308 for the same rides. Your $445 net would be $137 or about $7.62 per hour.


----------



## Lawlet91

Doughie said:


> $25 per hour for a savvy driver sounds about right if you're in Seattle. If you're in Orlando the pay is half. Your $616 would be close to $308 for the same rides. Your $445 net would be $137 or about $7.62 per hour.


This math you'll be accurate IF Orlando was making half of Seattle rates. Orlando makes closer to 1/3 of Seattle rates, meaning gross pay for exactly same rides would be approximately $210 for 31 runs, minus probably $30 in gas due to differing gas prices between here and there, conservative cost of driving at .30 a mile otherwise for $215 in expense...... leaves you losing $45 in Orlando.

Meaning that same $25 an hour your making in Seattle comes out to -$2.57 an hour in Orlando market for EXACTLY same rides and distance


----------



## Kodyhead

The more this article gets spread around, the higher the chance that uber and lyft will raise rates for drivers

The question is, how insulting it will be lol.

maybe another nickel on pool rides and maybe $0.06/ mile and another penny per min



tohunt4me said:


> They PLAN to allow INVESTORS to purchase fleets.
> Investors will maintain the fleets.
> Uber plans to pay NOTHING !
> Just like with us !
> Investors will have to manage the costs of self driving cars.
> 
> Of Course
> THERE WONT BE RATE CUTS THEN !
> 
> Think " U HAUL FRANCHISE"
> 
> Investors buy the fleets.
> Investors buy the storage properties.
> Investors do the upkeep and maintenence.
> U HAUL COLLECTS A FEE.


I personally think they will franchise them out, with the same strategy of putting the costs on the owners. With of course charges like maintence, oil changes, car washes at uber garages. Uber would be great money, if you didn't actually have to drive lol


----------



## Trafficat

Kodyhead said:


> The more this article gets spread around, the higher the chance that uber and lyft will raise rates for drivers
> 
> The question is, how insulting it will be lol.
> 
> maybe another nickel on pool rides and maybe $0.06/ mile and another penny per min
> 
> I personally think they will franchise them out, with the same strategy of putting the costs on the owners. With of course charges like maintence, oil changes, car washes at uber garages. Uber would be great money, if you didn't actually have to drive lol


I see it as an indirect mechanism. The rideshare companies are unlikely to raise rates just because of this publicity. However, it may cause less drivers to drive... and THAT may cause Uber to raise rates and/or increase surge which is effectively the same thing.

It might increase tipping somewhat though when riders who assume every driver is making $21.50 an hour or whatever Uber claims realizes that after expenses it isn't much. In my town I think most working class people make $10-15 an hour and many assume rideshare drivers are making a lot more money than they are.


----------



## tohunt4me

Jo3030 said:


> Life changing money!


Transhumanist " LIFE" changing.



RaleighNick said:


> This, also think farmers raising chickens or something. They are encouraged to borrow a bunch of money to pay for all the necessary equipment, big companies control the chicken from hatch to slaughter, chicken raiser gets caught in debt and making far less than ever promised.
> Same thing happening with Uber on a very small scale per individual.
> And with self driving cars someone else will foot the bill. Uber is about control. Plain and simple.


Mississippi up around Jackson is Filled with abandoned chicken farms.



UberHammer said:


> Uber's response to this is insane. They say the methods used in the study are flawed.
> 
> Well, let's assume a driver has $0.00 costs per mile and see what it produces.
> 
> If getting $0.59/mile from the fares results in $3.37/hr when the costs per mile are $0.30/mile, then getting $0.59/mile from the fares results in $6.86/hr when the costs per mile are $0.00/mile (3.37/0.29*0.59=6.86).
> 
> So even if the driver has ZERO car costs, they still make less than minimum wage.
> 
> Uber is suffering from two problems: 1) their rates are too low; and 2) they think a driver being online waiting for a ping is a driver that is "not working". So they don't include that time in what they believe a driver makes per hour.


That is HORRIFFIC !

When you point out the Facts !



MadTownUberD said:


> If Uber doubled its rates, it would lose a significant number of trip requests...perhaps up to half. Then the remaining drivers -- who are now getting paid a little more per trip -- would all be scrounging for far fewer trips...and perhaps bringing home about as much as they were before the hypothetical rate hike.
> 
> Once you penetrate a market and expand market share you can't just raise prices without repercussions. Even a monopoly has to present its services as a viable alternative to "doing it yourself", aka walking/biking/etc.


QUIT ONBOARDING !

Have LIMITS !

Like Taxi Learned 150 YEARS AGO !



Bob Reynolds said:


> I have driven for Uber. Although I did not do a Uber test, the numbers for Uber are going to be about the same and maybe a little less because Uber riders tend not to tip.
> 
> Keep in mind that during this 40 hour test, I provided 50 rides. I also hit the completion bonuses. It was steady and there was not a lot of down time. Lyft is pretty busy these days. It's not like it used to be. It fact it would be just about impossible to complete any more rides than what I did. This equaled out to 1.25 rides per hour in the Orlando metro area.


Uber OFFERS NO BONUS HERE !


----------



## Colder Truthly

My car was damaged by a city pothole and a curb at the end of an Uber Eats customer's driveway. $2600.00 to fix the radiator and cooling system. I reported it as an accident with Uber. But then found out that their insurance company charges a $1,000 deductible- twice as much my insurance company charges. 1/5 of what I made last year with them. So 1 accident/incident in the 2 years ive been working for uber. Also I would not have a car payment, nor full coverage, nor expensive insurance since, it's financed and a VW import car if I wasn't driving for uber.. then factoring gas and offline work driving away from the ghetto back to my part of town, time that I'm not being paid for (don't forget time spent finding cheap gas and cleaning my car which is hand washed, since I can't afford a machine wash every week). All these things add up I do only work 12 to 15 hours a week mostly during surges- weekend nights and Rush Hour. Also, the likelihood of damaging the car would be twice as great if I worked full-time, 30 hours plus. So this article may have some validity.


----------



## tohunt4me

Colder Truthly said:


> My car was damaged by a city pothole and a curb at the end of an Uber Eats customer's driveway. $2600.00 to fix the radiator and cooling system. I reported it as an accident with Uber. But then found out that their insurance company charges a $1,000 deductible- twice as much my insurance company charges. 1/5 of what I made last year with them. So 1 accident/incident in the 2 years ive been working for uber. Also I would not have a car payment, nor full coverage, nor expensive insurance since, it's financed and a VW import car if I wasn't driving for uber.. then factoring gas and offline work driving away from the ghetto back to my part of town, time that I'm not being paid for (don't forget time spent finding cheap gas and cleaning my car which is hand washed, since I can't afford a machine wash every week). All these things add up I do only work 12 to 15 hours a week mostly during surges- weekend nights and Rush Hour. Also, the likelihood of damaging the car would be twice as great if I worked full-time, 30 hours plus. So this article may have some validity.


Order a radiator from J.C.WHITNEY for $120.00. Free shipping.
No sales tax.
Slap it in.
Pocket $1,350.00
Write off $1,000.00 deductible on taxes.


----------



## Colder Truthly

tohunt4me said:


> Transhumanist " LIFE" changing.
> 
> Mississippi up around Jackson is Filled with abandoned chicken farms.
> 
> That is HORRIFFIC !
> 
> When you point out the Facts !
> 
> QUIT ONBOARDING !
> 
> Have LIMITS !
> 
> Like Taxi Learned 150 YEARS AGO !
> 
> Uber OFFERS NO BONUS HERE !





tohunt4me said:


> Transhumanist " LIFE" changing.
> 
> Mississippi up around Jackson is Filled with abandoned chicken farms.
> 
> That is HORRIFFIC !
> 
> When you point out the Facts !
> 
> QUIT ONBOARDING !
> 
> Have LIMITS !
> 
> Like Taxi Learned 150 YEARS AGO !
> 
> Uber OFFERS NO BONUS HERE !


Were guaranteed to make 3.75 per trip on short rides though and taking 3 of those an hour puts us above $9 an hour. So article is a little bit exaggerated.



tohunt4me said:


> Order a radiator from J.C.WHITNEY for $120.00. Free shipping.
> No sales tax.
> Slap it in.
> Pocket $1,350.00
> Write off $1,000.00 deductible on taxes.


I don't make enough to pay taxes so write-offs don't benefit me at all. And I'm not a mechanic there's also an mounts for the radiator damaged and a condenser damaged is what they told me when I got a quote from the dealership. I'm going through my own insurance company which is what uber counts on by charging such a high deductible.


----------



## bsliv

Colder Truthly said:


> Were guaranteed to make 3.75 per trip on short rides though and taking 3 of those an hour puts us above $9 an hour. So article is a little bit exaggerated.


The article implies that costs are 51% of earnings (to make $0.59 will cost you $0.30). So that $9 gross is only $4.41 net.

MIT states their sources for the cost data as Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book, and the EPA. I imagine they got mileage rates from the EPA. KBB has been in the depreciation business a long time. They're probably the best source for that data. Edmunds publishes a True Cost to Own which has valuable data for maintenance and expected repair costs.

All this data is available for free to everyone. My 2015 Mazda3 costs $0.28 per mile to run. My 1999 Chevy Blazer costs about the same per mile (no depreciation but high expected repair costs and low mpg).


----------



## tohunt4me

Colder Truthly said:


> Were guaranteed to make 3.75 per trip on short rides though and taking 3 of those an hour puts us above $9 an hour. So article is a little bit exaggerated.
> 
> I don't make enough to pay taxes so write-offs don't benefit me at all. And I'm not a mechanic there's also an mounts for the radiator damaged and a condenser damaged is what they told me when I got a quote from the dealership. I'm going through my own insurance company which is what uber counts on by charging such a high deductible.


Ive got my own A.C. system vaccum pump. I can swap out condensors, filters, evaporators.
I had just meant to rent it from Auto zone.
Never got around to bringing it back.
I now own it.
Condensor will run you $200.00
Bracket can probably be whipped back into shape in a vice.


----------



## Trafficat

Colder Truthly said:


> Were guaranteed to make 3.75 per trip on short rides though and taking 3 of those an hour puts us above $9 an hour. So article is a little bit exaggerated.


Depends where you are. Not all places have a $3.75 minimum payout. And not every place will yield 3 rides per hour.


----------



## tohunt4me

Trafficat said:


> Depends where you are. Not all places have a $3.75 minimum payout. And not every place will yield 3 rids per hour.


And gas, insurance, car note, maintenence. Are all coming out of that $9.00.
Work uniforms. Meals.



bsliv said:


> The article implies that costs are 51% of earnings (to make $0.59 will cost you $0.30). So that $9 gross is only $4.41 net.
> 
> MIT states their sources for the cost data as Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book, and the EPA. I imagine they got mileage rates from the EPA. KBB has been in the depreciation business a long time. They're probably the best source for that data. Edmunds publishes a True Cost to Own which has valuable data for maintenance and expected repair costs.
> 
> All this data is available for free to everyone. My 2015 Mazda3 costs $0.28 per mile to run. My 1999 Chevy Blazer costs about the same per mile (no depreciation but high expected repair costs and low mpg).


Those little v6 blazers get 16 m.p.g. !
A straight 6 full size Trailblazer will get 20 mpg with 4 wheel drive !

And you CAN'T Uber with a 1999 vehicle. So that point is moot.
8 years old is the Limit in my market.

Ive got a nice 2006 Trailblazer out back $1,500.00 at auction.
Cant uber with it. Too old.
I can Tow 5,600 pounds with it though.
Can haul 2 prius at a time cross country.

Now a 2013 x police tahoe from chicago for $800.00 is ok by uber rules.


----------



## dirtylee

You can beat that number if you live in a top 10 metropolitan area, never dead mile, stack rides, surge & work busy hours.
Dead miles & waiting at an airport cue is an earnings killer.


----------



## Uberingdude

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.opb.org/news/article/np...g-a-median-profit-of-337-per-hour-study-says/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A study from MIT says most drivers are making less than minimum wage.
> 
> The vast majority of Uber and Lyft drivers are earning less than minimum wage and almost a third of them are actually losing money by driving, according to researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
> 
> A working paper by Stephen M. Zoepf, Stella Chen, Paa Adu and Gonzalo Pozo at MIT's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research says the median pretax profit earned from driving is $3.37 per hour after taking expenses into account. Seventy-four percent of drivers earn less than their state's minimum wage, the researchers say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Thirty percent of drivers "are actually losing money once vehicle expenses are included," the authors found.*_
> 
> The conclusions are based on surveys of more than 1,100 drivers who told researchers about their revenue, how many miles they drove and what type of car they used. The study's authors then combined that with typical costs associated with a certain car's insurance, maintenance, gas and depreciation, which was gathered in data from Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book and the Environmental Protection Agency.
> 
> Drivers earning the median amount of revenue are getting $0.59 per mile driven, researchers say, but expenses work out to $0.30 per mile, meaning a driver makes a median profit of $0.29 for each mile.
> 
> An Uber spokesperson responded to the finding in a statement to The Guardian:
> 
> "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."
> 
> The newspaper also noted, "Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job."
> 
> MIT authors also calculated that it's possible for billions of dollars in driver profits to be untaxed, because "nearly half of drivers can declare a loss on their taxes." Drivers are able to use the IRS standard mileage rate deduction to write off some of the costs of using a car for business. In 2016, that number was $0.54 per mile. "Because of this deduction, most ride-hailing drivers are able to declare profits that are substantially lower," researchers write.
> 
> "If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," they add.
> 
> The MIT researchers said 80 percent of drivers said they work less than 40 hours per week. An NPR/Marist poll in January found 1 in 5 jobs in the U.S. is held by a contract worker; contractors often juggle multiple part-time jobs.
> 
> What's worse, approximately 75% of drivers earn less than the minimum wage in their state.
> 
> Uber and Lyft both have "notoriously high" turnover rates among drivers. A report last year said just 4 percent of Uber drivers work for the company for at least a year.
> 
> NPR's Aarti Shahani reported in December that Lyft began a program to give drivers "access to discounted GED and college courses online" in a recruiting effort.
> 
> It was only last year that Uber introduced the option to tip drivers into its app for customers. Recode listed the initiatives Uber rolled out in 2017 in order to appeal to drivers, including 24-hour phone support, paid wait time and paying drivers if customers cancel after a certain amount of time.
> 
> 'This business model is not currently sustainable,' Stephen Zoepf, a co-author of the paper, told the Guardian.
> 
> 'The companies are losing money and the businesses are being subsidized by [venture capital] money'
> 
> 'Drivers are essentially subsidizing it by working for very low wages,' he added.
> 
> Both Uber and Lyft have been fighting legal battles for years against initiatives to classify their drivers as "employees" instead of "independent contractors" - meaning drivers don't receive benefits like health care or sick leave.


yet, we fret over 1 stars to stay in good graces with this fine company.


----------



## BurgerTiime

And t


bsliv said:


> The article implies that costs are 51% of earnings (to make $0.59 will cost you $0.30). So that $9 gross is only $4.41 net.
> 
> MIT states their sources for the cost data as Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book, and the EPA. I imagine they got mileage rates from the EPA. KBB has been in the depreciation business a long time. They're probably the best source for that data. Edmunds publishes a True Cost to Own which has valuable data for maintenance and expected repair costs.
> 
> All this data is available for free to everyone. My 2015 Mazda3 costs $0.28 per mile to run. My 1999 Chevy Blazer costs about the same per mile (no depreciation but high expected repair costs and low mpg).


yup and that's PRE TAX!


----------



## Fauxknight

leroy jenkins said:


> And the guy working at McDonald's has a 0% chance of being killed by a DUI or shived by a pax.


Till they run out of chicken nug nugs, then the McD employee gonna get shived. Nug nugs is serious business.


----------



## JayBeKay

ubercrashdummy said:


> *"If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," *
> 
> We must close this loophole which allows wealthy rideshare drivers to avoid taxes. Once we close these loopholes shielding more than $3.5B in profit, we will be able to direct that revenue towards social programs to subsidize rideshare customers living in poverty.


That's rich! Good one!


----------



## kdyrpr

The simple solution is Lyft and Uber make an agreement to raise their rates. Everyone wins. Only reason they are so low is that the two companies are in competition with one another. Rates will never be raised without both companies agreeing. And I'm not even taking into consideration he other rideshare companies on the periphery.


----------



## kdyrpr

What is a "savvy" driver? I know what a smart driver is. Is a savvy rider one who cherry picks? Call pax up to find out destination? Takes trips and routinely tricks riders into thinking they are on the way and force them to cancel to collect cancel fee? Put signs and novelties in their back seat to beg for tips? Conspire with other drivers to manipulate surge? Give out business cards to solicit cash rides? Yes, there is smart way to drive and dumb way to drive. But the one thing that is constant is that for the most part it's a crap shoot. How many times have we sat in a surge zone and maybe received one request that went 3 blocks. Conversely what about that time the surge was at say 5.0 (rarely anymore) and we received a ping from a young lady that had no choice but to get the hell home after the bars close? We find out she lives 20 miles away. BINGO ! Was that "savvy"? You just happen to be at the right place and the right time. Yeah, being smart allows you to increase the odds (not as much as you think) that you will be in the "right place". Sadly though it nearly always comes down to luck. What about that time you were running both apps and you received pings from both nearly simultaneously and you picked the uber ride because the ratings was higher (4.85 as opposed to 4.79) and turned out to be a nice long trip. Was that "savvy"? Maybe. Luck? PROBABLY. If I go back on my earning statements and check out my best days they were almost always peppered with huge surge rides that could have gone to just about anyone.


UPDATE ON THIS POST: Next day: Here is a prime example of sheer luck. Bar closing and I've already skipped 2 requests. One a 2.2 because the rating was a 4.76. Whats the big deal? Knew exactly who this pax would be. 20 something drunk male, likely with 2-3 of his drunk friends. I know that's part of game when if you drive nights. I've already taken several in this state TO bars. I've had it with them. Also, the pick up area sucks because streets are blocked off. Decide to abandon the area because of that and head about 3 miles west to another hot spot. By this time the surge has died down to 1.3. Cut off app and wait. Now it goes up to 1.8 and I get another ping, but same circumstances: 4.75. Nope. I really don't care at this point. It's not about the money. 5 minutes later Surge is gone. So be it. I made my bed, now I will lie in it. Decide, screw it I'll take one more ride surge or not if the rating is higher. Sure enough get a ping for a 4.87, no surge 2 minutes away at a bar. It's two girls heading home. Great. Sure they were pretty hammered but believe me, SO much easier to take then testosterone fueled idiot guys. Nice ride about 15 miles. They were obviously waiting out the surge. 2 miles before I get to the destination which is easily going to be my last of the night I get stacked ping for a pickup ten minutes away. DID I SEE RIGHT? 5.2 Surge, for this ride HUH ??? No way. In the middle of nowhere?? I dropped off the two girls and checked out the ride I had accepted. Sure enough 5.2 Surge. RARELY if ever seen in these parts anymore except for massive outdoor concerts in the summer. Takes me about 8-10 minutes to get to the destination. Rural farms and nice subdivisions. I've already assumed it has to be party letting out. Pull up to the house and I'm right. There's about 6 cars parked in front of the house. Pax nowhere to be seen. I'm thinking that the 5.2 surge ride is going to turn into a mere cancellation fee. About 4 minutes in I'm about to call the guy when they approach the car. Guy and his girl. Hop in an the destination is the same as the pickup point. I inform them and they give me the actual address which I type into my app. Expecting the destination to be a mile down the road. But hey that would of been a minimum $15 - not bad for a mile. Turns out the destination is 13 MILES down the road. Couple is nice albeit hammered like everyone else this time of night and we are having a normal conversation. About half way there the male half of this couple says drunkenly that this ride is costing him about $100. He wasn't too drunk to figure THAT out. I tell him that UBER gets nearly all of that. They agree! The female is strangely sitting up front and tells him how much it is worth it to not get a DUI. I pipe in that I've seen cops all night pulling people over ( only 2 actually) to make him feel better. Get to the destination, dude thanks me, shakes my hand and off they go. I make $67 for a 19 minute ride. So was this skill and "savvy"? NO! BLIND STINKING LUCK. Just like conversely 2 hours before I decided to take a gamble on a 11 minute "Premium pickup possible"....WTF is THAT??? The "premium" pick up is a fat 20 yr old kid using a female names account going 3 miles. I pull out of the parking lot and hit a crater of pot hole that pisses me off so much I just shouted WTF was THAT ! "You would think that someone would of put a cone or something over the Fu&%^*ng thing". Kid doesn't say a word. Now I'm really pissed. Dropped him off. 1 starred the account for cleanliness because I figured I was getting the same. BAD LUCK there. So there you have it as much as we try to increase our odds of making money with the least amount of wear and tear and time...Too often it is shear luck.


----------



## Kodyhead

kdyrpr said:


> The simple solution is Lyft and Uber make an agreement to raise their rates. Everyone wins. Only reason they are so low is that the two companies are in competition with one another. Rates will never be raised without both companies agreeing. And I'm not even taking into consideration he other rideshare companies on the periphery.


Some People think that is a little illegal and I call these people the federal trade commission


----------



## UberCheese

BurgerTiime said:


> https://www.opb.org/news/article/np...g-a-median-profit-of-337-per-hour-study-says/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A study from MIT says most drivers are making less than minimum wage.
> 
> The vast majority of Uber and Lyft drivers are earning less than minimum wage and almost a third of them are actually losing money by driving, according to researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
> 
> A working paper by Stephen M. Zoepf, Stella Chen, Paa Adu and Gonzalo Pozo at MIT's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research says the median pretax profit earned from driving is $3.37 per hour after taking expenses into account. Seventy-four percent of drivers earn less than their state's minimum wage, the researchers say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*Thirty percent of drivers "are actually losing money once vehicle expenses are included," the authors found.*_
> 
> The conclusions are based on surveys of more than 1,100 drivers who told researchers about their revenue, how many miles they drove and what type of car they used. The study's authors then combined that with typical costs associated with a certain car's insurance, maintenance, gas and depreciation, which was gathered in data from Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book and the Environmental Protection Agency.
> 
> Drivers earning the median amount of revenue are getting $0.59 per mile driven, researchers say, but expenses work out to $0.30 per mile, meaning a driver makes a median profit of $0.29 for each mile.
> 
> An Uber spokesperson responded to the finding in a statement to The Guardian:
> 
> "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."
> 
> The newspaper also noted, "Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job."
> 
> MIT authors also calculated that it's possible for billions of dollars in driver profits to be untaxed, because "nearly half of drivers can declare a loss on their taxes." Drivers are able to use the IRS standard mileage rate deduction to write off some of the costs of using a car for business. In 2016, that number was $0.54 per mile. "Because of this deduction, most ride-hailing drivers are able to declare profits that are substantially lower," researchers write.
> 
> "If drivers are fully able to capitalize on these losses for tax purposes, 73.5% of an estimated U.S. market $4.8B in annual ride-hailing driver profit is untaxed," they add.
> 
> The MIT researchers said 80 percent of drivers said they work less than 40 hours per week. An NPR/Marist poll in January found 1 in 5 jobs in the U.S. is held by a contract worker; contractors often juggle multiple part-time jobs.
> 
> What's worse, approximately 75% of drivers earn less than the minimum wage in their state.
> 
> Uber and Lyft both have "notoriously high" turnover rates among drivers. A report last year said just 4 percent of Uber drivers work for the company for at least a year.
> 
> NPR's Aarti Shahani reported in December that Lyft began a program to give drivers "access to discounted GED and college courses online" in a recruiting effort.
> 
> It was only last year that Uber introduced the option to tip drivers into its app for customers. Recode listed the initiatives Uber rolled out in 2017 in order to appeal to drivers, including 24-hour phone support, paid wait time and paying drivers if customers cancel after a certain amount of time.
> 
> 'This business model is not currently sustainable,' Stephen Zoepf, a co-author of the paper, told the Guardian.
> 
> 'The companies are losing money and the businesses are being subsidized by [venture capital] money'
> 
> 'Drivers are essentially subsidizing it by working for very low wages,' he added.
> 
> Both Uber and Lyft have been fighting legal battles for years against initiatives to classify their drivers as "employees" instead of "independent contractors" - meaning drivers don't receive benefits like health care or sick leave.


I figured this out years ago. Maybe I need to attend MIT for it to be true.


----------



## melusine3

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> So uber is claiming that these MIT researchers are using flawed methodology?
> 
> When the researchers info reflects... what we all have been saying for a long time?
> 
> Who could have seen that one coming?


Do you expect Uber to admit to something that would send investors screaming in the opposite direction? If the average car with a driver can't make a profit, how in the world will their driverless cars profit? If they think cheap pax will suddenly be okay with an increase in fees once they're in complete control, they've got another thing coming.


----------



## Mars Troll Number 4

getawaycar said:


> The thing is it could have been a decent way for people to make extra money, but the businessmen running the companies are way too greedy to let that happen. They will never stop seeking ways to exploit and squeeze every last nickel from the drivers. That has always been the nature of the taxi business. Which explains why 90% of taxi drivers have historically been brown-skin immigrants who can barely speak English because they are easier to exploit, doing a job few Americans want to do.
> 
> Until Uber came along with its ultra-slick marketing that made it cool and hip to be a glorified taxi driver. So now they got a lot white people driving for them and learning firsthand what it feels like to be an exploited immigrant taxi driver lol.


I make more driving a taxi... got a whole bunch of Hatiian co workers who STILL make way more than the local uber drivers do.



melusine3 said:


> Do you expect Uber to admit to something that would send investors screaming in the opposite direction? If the average car with a driver can't make a profit, how in the world will their driverless cars profit? If they think cheap pax will suddenly be okay with an increase in fees once they're in complete control, they've got another thing coming.


I expect uber to fall apart within 3 months of going public. That's what i expect to happen. All the investors are looking to cash out. Everything else they are doing is working to the IPO.

Self driving cars?

Those numbers will be abysmal once they are on the road, and way worse than actually having drivers.


----------



## gizmotheboss

I am better off standing on my feet begging for money on a street corner and taking a lot less risk doing it


----------



## AintWorthIt

I’ve been on this site for years saying it’s a complete scam. It’s the most successful Ponzi scheme in history.


----------



## SoCal Uber Clone

LMAO at Uber claiming flawed methodology from one of the most prestigious institutions in the US.


----------



## 1.5xorbust

What is amazing is that one half of all drivers actually make LESS than $3.37 per hour.


----------



## melusine3

at-007smartLP said:


> paying $3.37 an hour and almost 40% of drivers are losing money per hour and they still lose $9000 A SECOND, 12 MILLION PER DAY with a 96% failure rate
> 
> sure its not a ponzi scam envolved in slavery & ACTUAL HUMAN TRAFFICKING
> 
> #NationalizeUber
> 
> they have not been good corporate citizens put america back to work
> 
> $1.50 per mile, .25 per minute, $10 minimum gross Nationwide minimums
> 
> Every adult with a vehicle within 10 years old & can pass a background & drivers license tests now has a fair job with fair pay for an honest days work.
> 
> Thats all the people want
> https://mobile.twitter.com/traviskmadoff
> 
> #jailtravisk #arrestubersboard #uberISmoderndayslavery #uberhumantrafficking
> #uber1981minimumwagein2018shutitdownnationalize
> 
> thats the ticket....
> 
> imagine what it would be if you took the 4% of drivers who succeed, screen, avoid 90% of requests and make $40 an hour does to that $3.37 an hour in 2018
> 
> what year was a $3.37 minimum wage legal? oh yeah 1981 foh imagine the percentage of drivers getting $1 an hour, .30 an hour, negative $1 an hour to come out to an average of $3.37 were talking 1920s wages, and this isnt slavery how


I had a potential private client and I quoted her $1.50 per mile, $10 per hour wait time (because she mentioned wanting/needing to go to the hairdresser etc) plus take her grandchild to school and I'd keep her child seat in my car. She balked at that, countered with $1 per mile as "it's more than Uber!" and I cut her off. Excuse me, that you want me at your beck and call AND wait and you want to dictate to me under the guise that it's more money than Uber? ANYTHING is more than Uber.


----------



## SoCal Uber Clone

1.5xorbust said:


> What is amazing is that one half of all drivers actually make less than $3.37 per hour.


30% show a net loss!


----------



## melusine3

MadTownUberD said:


> So if Uber isn't profitable now, who's going to pay for an increase in driver wages? Yes it sounds great to just give everyone a raise but it has to come from somewhere.


It should come from the rider, paying a fair rate for a specialized service. Those who can't afford that can use public transit.



tohunt4me said:


> Robot Cars will starve also !
> 
> How do you Reposess a Robot Car ?


I'm pretty sure those in the inner cities are already working out a way.


----------



## 1.5xorbust

SoCal Uber Clone said:


> 30% show a net loss!


The problem is they're not aware that they have a net loss until well after the fact. A $2k mechanical repair frequently helps facilitate the education process.


----------



## melusine3

SurgeWarrior said:


> Where are your figures for the dead miles on the return?


Plus the miles to drive TO the pickup, and the deadhead miles driving back from a 200 mile round trip. Did not mention the excessive wear and tear on the car, I've heard the shelf life of a rideshare car is 3 years. Not a good proposition if you have a 5 year loan. After 3 years, you're driving a ready-to-break-down junk heap.



westsidebum said:


> We need to stop trying to appeal to pax and the likes of Uber/lyft for relief to end this scam. The way forward is to organize and appeal to the appropriate regulating bodies such as state transportation boards, sec of commerce , labor and congress. Laws should be in place forcing companies like Uber to provide full disclosure on what they know are drivers real and potential earnings based on average costs, force them to recognize drivers as employees or give drivers the powers true independent contractors have which is the power to set their own rates.
> 
> A rideshare company called Sidecare now defunct gave drivers a suggested rate and allowed passengers and drivers the option to set rate and cost of individual ride. Most passenger offers for destinations were always way over what was the standard rate for Uber or lyft at that time.
> 
> Travis got a check for a billion dollars last month I'm sure he is grateful that he was allowed by all the regulatory agencies to scam and exploit a very vulnerable portion of the population called drivers many of which are minorities without viable alternatives.


This should also include unlimited destination filters, since we should always be able to drive in the direction that we desire. Otherwise, Uber dictates where we go and that makes them employers.



goneubering said:


> I'm surprised only 30% of drivers are losing money. It seems like that number would be much higher.


It would be if they realized most Uber drivers don't understand all of the costs included, which they don't. Plus, if they polled new drivers who get preferential treatment and more surges than older drivers, those numbers are skewed. Maybe they did take this into consideration, but it would be far better if they also polled drivers with over six months in time.



Ride-Share-Risk-Manager said:


> Well, you don't seem to have any ideas for increasing driver income but its very easy to criticize our idea without of course trying it to see if it might work or generate some additional tips.


I have found explaining the true costs of driving to certain passengers does increase tips. Usually the older pax, young ones don't care.



MadTownUberD said:


> Forget organizing, asking the nanny state to punish Uber for you, etc...these are at best pushing on a rope and at worst counter-productive. *Just find something else to do with your time if you don't like it.*
> 
> I never expected this gig to be more than extra income. The name "Rideshare" kind of implies that you're generously giving someone a ride for enough money to ensure your expenses are covered, plus a little more for your troubles. "Cab", "Limousine", and "Livery" are stronger terms that imply higher compensation...at least the way I see it.


So, why does/did Uber promote us as their "Personal Driver" and not expect the exact treatment they're giving us?



tohunt4me said:


> They PLAN to allow INVESTORS to purchase fleets.
> Investors will maintain the fleets.
> Uber plans to pay NOTHING !
> Just like with us !
> Investors will have to manage the costs of self driving cars.
> 
> Of Course
> THERE WONT BE RATE CUTS THEN !
> 
> Think " U HAUL FRANCHISE"
> 
> Investors buy the fleets.
> Investors buy the storage properties.
> Investors do the upkeep and maintenence.
> U HAUL COLLECTS A FEE.


You base this upon the notion that passengers will be nice, clean, and tidy and respect these driverless vehicles. They are in for a rude awakening. I'm just waiting for the many instances when non-passengers jump into the cars and what will they do? Expect the paying passenger to shove them out? They already expect the paying passenger to call for another Uber when the first one arrives filled with vomit (or other bodily fluids) on the back seat. This will completely turn off the passenger who could afford the higher rates they will try to institute in order to make a profit and they'll end up with those who would otherwise be bus passengers. What a mess it will be!


----------



## tohunt4me

melusine3 said:


> Plus the miles to drive TO the pickup, and the deadhead miles driving back from a 200 mile round trip. Did not mention the excessive wear and tear on the car, I've heard the shelf life of a rideshare car is 3 years. Not a good proposition if you have a 5 year loan. After 3 years, you're driving a ready-to-break-down junk heap.
> 
> This should also include unlimited destination filters, since we should always be able to drive in the direction that we desire. Otherwise, Uber dictates where we go and that makes them employers.
> 
> It would be if they realized most Uber drivers don't understand all of the costs included, which they don't. Plus, if they polled new drivers who get preferential treatment and more surges than older drivers, those numbers are skewed. Maybe they did take this into consideration, but it would be far better if they also polled drivers with over six months in time.
> 
> I have found explaining the true costs of driving to certain passengers does increase tips. Usually the older pax, young ones don't care.
> 
> So, why does/did Uber promote us as their "Personal Driver" and not expect the exact treatment they're giving us?
> 
> You base this upon the notion that passengers will be nice, clean, and tidy and respect these driverless vehicles. They are in for a rude awakening. I'm just waiting for the many instances when non-passengers jump into the cars and what will they do? Expect the paying passenger to shove them out? They already expect the paying passenger to call for another Uber when the first one arrives filled with vomit (or other bodily fluids) on the back seat. This will completely turn off the passenger who could afford the higher rates they will try to institute in order to make a profit and they'll end up with those who would otherwise be bus passengers. What a mess it will be!


The reason WE KNOW MORE THAN THE ENGINEERS IS THAT WE HAVE DEALT WITH IT. FOR YEARS.

They have no concept of the reality


----------



## transporter007

Uberingdude said:


> yet, we fret over 1 stars to stay in good graces with this fine company.


....*and that's uber's plan.  Sad that we live up to their low expections of us.*


----------



## melusine3

ABC123DEF said:


> Exactly...they have to keep the scheme going somehow. The "show" must go on.
> 
> Uh...surge still exists?!


S/he may still be in the Uber honeymoon stage where surges are abundant and rides are plenty. Give it 3 months.



Colder Truthly said:


> My car was damaged by a city pothole and a curb at the end of an Uber Eats customer's driveway. $2600.00 to fix the radiator and cooling system. I reported it as an accident with Uber. But then found out that their insurance company charges a $1,000 deductible- twice as much my insurance company charges. 1/5 of what I made last year with them. So 1 accident/incident in the 2 years ive been working for uber. Also I would not have a car payment, nor full coverage, nor expensive insurance since, it's financed and a VW import car if I wasn't driving for uber.. then factoring gas and offline work driving away from the ghetto back to my part of town, time that I'm not being paid for (don't forget time spent finding cheap gas and cleaning my car which is hand washed, since I can't afford a machine wash every week). All these things add up I do only work 12 to 15 hours a week mostly during surges- weekend nights and Rush Hour. Also, the likelihood of damaging the car would be twice as great if I worked full-time, 30 hours plus. So this article may have some validity.


Check to see if a nearby auto repair school can fix your car. In my town, they only charge for cost of parts and do an excellent job.


----------



## Mars Troll Number 4

Now uber is calling out MIT for flawed methodology

https://www.recode.net/2018/3/3/17074782/uber-mit-study-less-than-4-hour-flawed

The average Uber driver makes less than $4 an hour, at least according to a new paper published by MIT. In fact, the study, which coupled data from a survey of 1,100 drivers with vehicle cost information, found that 74 percent of drivers earned less than minimum wage in the state they worked in.

Uber trotted out its in-house economist Jonathan Hall to respond to the claims, and he says the study is flawed because of a discrepancy in the way the researchers analyzed the survey results.

"Perhaps most surprisingly, the earnings figures suggested in the paper are less than half the hourly earnings numbers reported in the very survey the paper derives its data from," Hall writes in a new post.

Even Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi sounded off on Twitter, saying MIT stood for "Mathematically Incompetent Theories."








dara khosrowshahi

✔@dkhos

MIT = Mathematically Incompetent Theories (at least as it pertains to ride-sharing). @techreview report differs markedly from other academic studies and BANNED WORDS recent survey. Our analysis: https://medium.com/@UberPubPolicy/a...on-the-economics-of-ride-hailing-1c8bfbf1081d &#8230;

12:25 AM - Mar 3, 2018

*An analysis of CEEPR's Paper on "The Economics of Ride-Hailing"*
By Jonathan Hall, Chief Economist

Uber has embarked on a campaign to win back drivers after years of mistrust. The company has recently instituted some driver requests such as tipping and more convenient fare routes.

The BANNED WORDS survey - the underlying data used for the paper - found Uber drivers made an average of $15.68 an hour - but that's before the costs of gas, maintenance and other expenses.

The MIT paper then incorporated the cost-per-mile for driving for Uber.

A brief on the study, which won't be released in full for a few months, reads:

A Median driver generates $0.59 per mile of driving, and incurs costs of $0.30 per mile. 30% of drivers incur expenses exceeding their revenue, or lose money for every mile they drive. (Figure 1) On an hourly basis, the median profit is $3.37 per hour and 74% of drivers earn less than the minimum wage in the state where they operate.

Still, Uber claims the researchers' methodology was flawed and further that drivers may not have understood the questions they were asked.

This is the crux of the company's argument:

The BANNED WORDS survey asks a number of questions about how much drivers earn and how many hours they work per week. The most important are questions 11, 14, and 15.

Q11: "How many hours per week do you work on average? Combine all of the on-demand services that you work for."

Q14: "How much money do you make in the average month? Combine the income from all your on-demand activities."

Q15: "How much of your total monthly income comes from driving?"

The problem in this case is inconsistent logic on the part of the paper's authors. Consider this: for question 14, the authors assume respondents are reporting income from *all* sources, not just on-demand work. As a result of this assumption, the authors discount the earnings from Q14 by the answer to Q15, "How much of your total monthly income comes from driving?"

For example: if a driver answered $1,000 to $2,000 to Q14, the authors would interpret that as $1,420.63² according to their methodology. If the respondent then answered "Around half" to Q15, the authors conclude this driver made $710.32 driving - half what they actually earned from driving with ridesharing platforms.

However, and perhaps just as important, the authors also assume that drivers understood Q11 perfectly well and that the hours reported only applied to on-demand work. As a result, they divide an incorrectly low earnings number by the correct number of hours.

We've reached out to the researchers and will update when we hear back.


----------



## dirtylee

Here's some ez math that applies to nearly all of you.

I do 3 min fares per hour. $2.85 each. 
$8.55/hr before car costs. 
If I drove {pax miles, dead miles, idling} 10 miles @0.25/mi. total costs are $2.50 for that hour.
I made $6.05 that hour {less than the fed min wage}


----------



## at-007smartLP

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> Now uber is calling out MIT for flawed methodology
> 
> https://www.recode.net/2018/3/3/17074782/uber-mit-study-less-than-4-hour-flawed
> 
> The average Uber driver makes less than $4 an hour, at least according to a new paper published by MIT. In fact, the study, which coupled data from a survey of 1,100 drivers with vehicle cost information, found that 74 percent of drivers earned less than minimum wage in the state they worked in.
> 
> Uber trotted out its in-house economist Jonathan Hall to respond to the claims, and he says the study is flawed because of a discrepancy in the way the researchers analyzed the survey results.
> 
> "Perhaps most surprisingly, the earnings figures suggested in the paper are less than half the hourly earnings numbers reported in the very survey the paper derives its data from," Hall writes in a new post.
> 
> Even Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi sounded off on Twitter, saying MIT stood for "Mathematically Incompetent Theories."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dara khosrowshahi
> 
> ✔@dkhos
> 
> MIT = Mathematically Incompetent Theories (at least as it pertains to ride-sharing). @techreview report differs markedly from other academic studies and BANNED WORDS recent survey. Our analysis: https://medium.com/@UberPubPolicy/a...on-the-economics-of-ride-hailing-1c8bfbf1081d &#8230;
> 
> 12:25 AM - Mar 3, 2018
> 
> *An analysis of CEEPR's Paper on "The Economics of Ride-Hailing"*
> By Jonathan Hall, Chief Economist
> 
> Uber has embarked on a campaign to win back drivers after years of mistrust. The company has recently instituted some driver requests such as tipping and more convenient fare routes.
> 
> The BANNED WORDS survey - the underlying data used for the paper - found Uber drivers made an average of $15.68 an hour - but that's before the costs of gas, maintenance and other expenses.
> 
> The MIT paper then incorporated the cost-per-mile for driving for Uber.
> 
> A brief on the study, which won't be released in full for a few months, reads:
> 
> A Median driver generates $0.59 per mile of driving, and incurs costs of $0.30 per mile. 30% of drivers incur expenses exceeding their revenue, or lose money for every mile they drive. (Figure 1) On an hourly basis, the median profit is $3.37 per hour and 74% of drivers earn less than the minimum wage in the state where they operate.
> 
> Still, Uber claims the researchers' methodology was flawed and further that drivers may not have understood the questions they were asked.
> 
> This is the crux of the company's argument:
> 
> The BANNED WORDS survey asks a number of questions about how much drivers earn and how many hours they work per week. The most important are questions 11, 14, and 15.
> 
> Q11: "How many hours per week do you work on average? Combine all of the on-demand services that you work for."
> 
> Q14: "How much money do you make in the average month? Combine the income from all your on-demand activities."
> 
> Q15: "How much of your total monthly income comes from driving?"
> 
> The problem in this case is inconsistent logic on the part of the paper's authors. Consider this: for question 14, the authors assume respondents are reporting income from *all* sources, not just on-demand work. As a result of this assumption, the authors discount the earnings from Q14 by the answer to Q15, "How much of your total monthly income comes from driving?"
> 
> For example: if a driver answered $1,000 to $2,000 to Q14, the authors would interpret that as $1,420.63² according to their methodology. If the respondent then answered "Around half" to Q15, the authors conclude this driver made $710.32 driving - half what they actually earned from driving with ridesharing platforms.
> 
> However, and perhaps just as important, the authors also assume that drivers understood Q11 perfectly well and that the hours reported only applied to on-demand work. As a result, they divide an incorrectly low earnings number by the correct number of hours.
> 
> We've reached out to the researchers and will update when we hear back.


so 96% driver failure rate because they make $15+ an hour in average NOT $3 sure thats the ticket same reason they shuttered the exchange leasing program they were making too much $

#NationalizeUber the ceo calling mit out needs to step down immediately 5th graders in 1985 know $4 before gas is a joke

i really hope mit hits back at this ponzi scam


----------



## Doughie

kdyrpr said:


> What is a "savvy" driver? I know what a smart driver is. Is a savvy rider one who cherry picks? Call pax up to find out destination? Takes trips and routinely tricks riders into thinking they are on the way and force them to cancel to collect cancel fee? Put signs and novelties in their back seat to beg for tips? Conspire with other drivers to manipulate surge? Give out business cards to solicit cash rides? Yes, there is smart way to drive and dumb way to drive. But the one thing that is constant is that for the most part it's a crap shoot. How many times have we sat in a surge zone and maybe received one request that went 3 blocks. Conversely what about that time the surge was at say 5.0 (rarely anymore) and we received a ping from a young lady that had no choice but to get the hell home after the bars close? We find out she lives 20 miles away. BINGO ! Was that "savvy"? You just happen to be at the right place and the right time. Yeah, being smart allows you to increase the odds (not as much as you think) that you will be in the "right place". Sadly though it nearly always comes down to luck. What about that time you were running both apps and you received pings from both nearly simultaneously and you picked the uber ride because the ratings was higher (4.85 as opposed to 4.79) and turned out to be a nice long trip. Was that "savvy"? Maybe. Luck? PROBABLY. If I go back on my earning statements and check out my best days they were almost always peppered with huge surge rides that could have gone to just about anyone.


Cherry pick rides. know when to go offline to get back ro the surge, ignore long pickups, run 2 apps and play them against eachother, have a low acceptance rate and a high cancellation rate, drive XL when profitable, wait for the surge ping when they're trying to send you 20 minutes away to pick up a flat rate X, no Taco Bell drive thru at least at closing time. My favorite is when enroute to an Uber X or Lyft ride I'll leave the other app on to see if a closer XL or Plus ride comes thru. Accept and cancel.


----------



## NorthNJLyftacular

Colder Truthly said:


> Were guaranteed to make 3.75 per trip on short rides though and taking 3 of those an hour puts us above $9 an hour. So article is a little bit exaggerated.


I think the people on here who say things like this are the real Uber/Lyft plants. Uber and Lyft's strategy all along has been to pretend like expenses/depreciation don't exist, much like the quote above.


----------



## kdyrpr

tohunt4me said:


> A less than 4% RETENTION RATE !
> 
> Sewer workers have 96%
> 
> Grave diggers 98%
> 
> Garbage pickers 88%
> 
> Uber less than 4%
> 
> People would rather be shot at in Afghanistan than Drive for Uber !


Those "professions" that you quoted have hourly pay rates of over $25 in most cities.


Doughie said:


> Cherry pick rides. know when to go offline to get back ro the surge, ignore long pickups, run 2 apps and play them against eachother, have a low acceptance rate and a high cancellation rate, drive XL when profitable, wait for the surge ping when they're trying to send you 20 minutes away to pick up a flat rate X, no Taco Bell drive thru at least at closing time. My favorite is when enroute to an Uber X or Lyft ride I'll leave the other app on to see if a closer XL or Plus ride comes thru. Accept and cancel.


Yeah..do all of the above..don't cherry pick however. Playing with fire there.


----------



## at-007smartLP

spread, share, participate, or dont #uberunmatched #nationalizeuber

mit on board & their data cannot be denied

96% failure rate $ 3.37 per hour a 1981 Minimum wage 1971 minimum fare 1965-1985 per mile rates in 2018 #HowIsUberLegal #nationalizeuber #jailtravisk #arrestubersboard #uberISmoderndayslavery #uberhumantrafficking


----------



## bsliv

Nationalize Uber? The USA is not (yet) a socialist country. A capitalist country will have markets set the prices for goods and services. The markets will respond to an over supply by decreasing prices and to an under supply by increasing prices. 

If you want to help, stop driving. If you want to help more, convince others to stop driving, too.

Legislating could increase fares. But legislation that protects an industry, or a section of an industry, at the cost of the economy is bad legislation.


----------



## Kodyhead

SoCal Uber Clone said:


> LMAO at Uber claiming flawed methodology from one of the most prestigious institutions in the US.


Lol I think in another thread I said i would trust and respect a kid that failed out of MIT lol


----------



## transporter007

NorthNJLyftacular said:


> I think the people on here who say things like this are the real Uber/Lyft plants. Uber and Lyft's strategy all along has been to pretend like expenses/depreciation don't exist, much like the quote above.


*Doesn't really matter. Since the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (founded 1861) study was published there has been *

*NO mass exodus of drivers*
*and thousands of new drivers have signed up*
*I suspect Uber knows most drivers have nowhere else to go in a job market*
*that requires high skills and education*
*Additionally, drivers are not even part of Uber's future business model *

*Learn A Trade!*


----------



## El Janitor

littlegoodwolf said:


> i think circumstances have to be examined as well. Right now I am cash poor but the equity in my car is high. I am using that equity to squeeze out the cash that I need right now and doing so at my own hours etc... The fact that I can do it tax free bc the mileage deduction outweighs the income is an added bonus. its just what works for me at this moment and lets me pursue a cash-poor life option for a while.


 Your car looses it's resale value "equity" with every mile, and ding and scratch you put on it. I had a friend who wanted to drive his leased car with Uber, then he realized that he would exceed the miles on his lease and end up paying penalties at the end for going over the mileage. So he decided it was a bad idea because he can do basic math. I put on over 3k miles in a month driving 40 hours a week to make maybe $100 max a day before expenses this is really about average for Uber X in a large city. A car is not like a house unless you have something that is a rare car like maybe a Nissan R34 GTR V Spec, or a Rolls Royce Silver Shadow and so on, which wouldn't qualify for Uber or Lyft anyways. Even the nicest Lexus, Audi, Acura and so on sedan isn't worth much in a decade with over $100,000 miles. Just wait you'll see.


----------



## Kodyhead

1.5xorbust said:


> What is amazing is that one half of all drivers actually make less than $3.37 per hour.


When I f


SoCal Uber Clone said:


> LMAO at Uber claiming flawed methodology from one of the most prestigious institutions in the US.


I agree since MIT isn't a college or university, its a technology school



SoCal Uber Clone said:


> 30% show a net loss!


but 70% of the time, it works every time!!!!


----------



## tohunt4me

They plan to eliminate all other choices first . . .


melusine3 said:


> Do you expect Uber to admit to something that would send investors screaming in the opposite direction? If the average car with a driver can't make a profit, how in the world will their driverless cars profit? If they think cheap pax will suddenly be okay with an increase in fees once they're in complete control, they've got another thing coming.


----------



## Michael - Cleveland

not sure I can get too excited over the report - which simply proves what most of us who've driven for any amount of time already knew.
MEDIAN expense is $0.30/mi (half the drivers spend less, half the drivers spend more). What do you want to be that those who spend less, are the ones who earn more?

When I driver my $4,100 SUV for XL/SELECT, I spend more... and sometimes I make more.
If I drive it for X, I lose my shirt.

When I drive my $4,600 Prius for X and only do surge rides, I come out way ahead... and if I use it for non surge rides, I earn less.

If a drivers spends $15,-$20,000 on a car that gets 20 MPG, they are going to spend more/earn less than a driver who spends $4,000 on a car that gets 35 MPG.

The problem with averages (be they MEAN or MEDIAN) is that no one is 'average'. Everyone's numbers are unique to them. Averages are good for getting a focus on the big picture - but they don't see the trees for the forest.



Kodyhead said:


> MIT isn't a college or university, its a technology school


MIT is a Univeristy. 
It is a member of, and accredited by, the Association of American Universities (AAU).


----------



## Gibman73

This is all even just the nuts and bolts of the issue. Someone should email the writer a years worth of their support back and forths.


----------



## transporter007

*>just another angle to consider<*

I know many uber drivers on federal government assistance

1. Food stamps aka: Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) FYI when u apply for food stamps the agency asks lots of personal financial questions but doesn't ask about vehicle ownership.
2. Supplemental Healthcare aka: Obamacare

Add the aforementioned costs into the drivers wages and we're well above the minimum wage. How many uber drivers receive rent assistance from their States?

Food & healthcare are expensive, U may be making $4 an hr, but add in the freebies that other higher wage earners pay and we, as drivers, are at over $20 per hr. (guesstimate)


----------



## majxl

Uber is working for a 2019 IPO (Initial Public Offering) witch will provide billions for their rich investors. For a successful IPO Uber needs to reduce their humongous losses! Since Uber does not have real assets there are only few choice to achieve this:
raise the rates, add more and more cars or take a bigger chunk of money from their partners... with would mean much lower hourly earnings!


----------



## Jesusdrivesuber

Markets like NY, San Fran, Seattle etc need to be excluded from the study, the mile pay is a definite 80 cents (adding time) in most parts of the country, factor in 54 cents depreciation and (dead miles, dead time), you got yourself an MIT study.

Why factor dead miles and depreciation? Because while doing work you are earning 26 cents a mile and while driving empty you are -54 cents every mile you drive.

Say you drove a total of 100 miles a day in profit which would be 26 bucks in 8 hours, to reach 40 hours as a normal laborer you now have 130 dollars profit weekly, this for the month makes about 520 bucks.

I would say MIT is far exceeding the actual estimates, the again, surges and non deadmile drivers probably boost those numbers.


----------



## Kodyhead

Michael - Cleveland said:


> MIT is a Univeristy.
> It is a member of, and accredited by, the Association of American Universities (AAU).


 I know MIT lol just like uber is not a taxi company yet a technology company.

Bad joke I guess


----------



## transporter007

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> Markets like NY, San Fran, Seattle etc need to be excluded from the study, the mile pay is a definite 80 cents (adding time) in most parts of the country, factor in 54 cents depreciation and (dead miles, dead time), you got yourself an MIT study.
> 
> Why factor dead miles and depreciation? Because while doing work you are earning 26 cents a mile and while driving empty you are -54 cents every mile you drive.
> 
> Say you drove a total of 100 miles a day in profit which would be 26 bucks in 8 hours, to reach 40 hours as a normal laborer you now have 130 dollars profit weekly, this for the month makes about 520 bucks.
> 
> I would say MIT is far exceeding the actual estimates, the again, surges and non deadmile drivers probably boost those numbers.


Doesn't seem MIT makes mistakes:

MIT alumni founded many notable companies. such as Intel, McDonnellDouglas, Texas Instruments, 3Com, Qualcomm, Bose, Raytheon, Apotex, Koch Industries, Rockwell International, Genentech, Dropbox, and Campbell Soup

"a survey of living MIT alumni found that they have formed 25,800 companies, employing more than *three million people* including about a *quarter of the workforce of Silicon Valley. *

Those firms collectively generate global revenues of about $1.9 trillion a year.

*>If MIT were a country, it would have the 11th highest GDP of any nation in the world<*


----------



## mrpjfresh

I wish someone would simply ask in-house economist, Mr. Hall, how does his company justify paying their drivers late 70s taxi rates and below $3 minimum fares in many markets with the drivers_ operating their own vehicles_ in the year 2018. My guess is he'd start bumbling worse than Hue Grant in a rom-com. Unless they are still going with the tried and true "lower rates means more money" trope? Like a child's toy where you pull the string and it spouts the same inane catch-phrases. Drivers must rely on an inconsistent gimmick (surge) and customer generosity (tips) to hope to approach a modern-day, acceptable pay level at these rates.

Ahhh. I get why Uber is so bent out of shape. Silly MIT. They used _actual_ math when they should have used Uber math! It all makes sense now! Flawed indeed.


----------



## transporter007

mrpjfresh said:


> I wish someone would simply ask in-house economist, Mr. Hall, how does his company justify paying their drivers late 70s taxi rates and below $3 minimum fares in many markets with the drivers_ operating their own vehicles_ in the year 2018. My guess is he'd start bumbling worse than Hue Grant in a rom-com. Unless they are still going with the tried and true "lower rates means more money" trope? Like a child's toy where you pull the string and it spouts the same inane catch-phrases. Drivers must rely on an inconsistent gimmick (surge) and customer generosity (tips) to hope to approach a modern-day, acceptable pay level at these rates.
> 
> Ahhh. I get why Uber is so bent out of shape. Silly MIT. They used _actual_ math when they should have used Uber math! It all makes sense now! Flawed indeed.


Seriously,

uber is ONLY concerned with keeping passengers happy
Passengers love low fares

Passengers are Uber's future
Non employee drivers are not in Uber's future business plan
No reason to increase fares since There is an UNENDING supply of drivers
Iranian, Dara Khosrowshahi Considers drivers a temporary annoyance
Just maybe after many have read "the report" more passengers may tip. I stress, maybe


----------



## Aja

Uber: you have to work for less money, twice as hard as a taxi driver and on top of that you pay all maintenance expenses.

Average smart Uber driver: Sure. It sounds like a ”great idea”.


----------



## at-007smartLP

bsliv said:


> Nationalize Uber? The USA is not (yet) a socialist country. A capitalist country will have markets set the prices for goods and services. The markets will respond to an over supply by decreasing prices and to an under supply by increasing prices.
> 
> If you want to help, stop driving. If you want to help more, convince others to stop driving, too.
> 
> Legislating could increase fares. But legislation that protects an industry, or a section of an industry, at the cost of the economy is bad legislation.


this is not capitalism this is modern day slavery posing as an app period, thats not hyperbole the entire board needs to be arrested, charged, & put on trial while all assets are seized, minimum rates are set & america turns it around & ends this madness

im a 1%er 3+ years i screen so every ride is $40+ an hour avoiding 90% of the blank contracts uber tries to coerce free unpaid labor from me

it shouldnt be that way every blank contract should cover my costs


----------



## transporter007

at-007smartLP said:


> this is not capitalism this is modern day slavery posing as an app period, thats not hyperbole the entire board needs to be arrested, charged, & put on trial while all assets are seized, minimum rates are set & america turns it around & ends this madness
> 
> im a 1%er 3+ years i screen so every ride is $40+ an hour avoiding 90% of the blank contracts uber tries to coerce free unpaid labor from me
> 
> it shouldnt be that way every blank contract should cover my costs
> 
> View attachment 210417


The way I see it: *No one held a gun to our head nor was driving for uber court ordered. **We are free to do whatever we want
*
*How can we complain about something we freely chose??*

Are we not of sound mind & body?
Are we insane?
Are we not responsible for our own decisions ?

I just don't " get" the shock & protest


----------



## bsliv

at-007smartLP said:


> this is not capitalism this is modern day slavery posing as an app period, thats not hyperbole the entire board needs to be arrested, charged, & put on trial while all assets are seized, minimum rates are set & america turns it around & ends this madness
> 
> im a 1%er 3+ years i screen so every ride is $40+ an hour avoiding 90% of the blank contracts uber tries to coerce free unpaid labor from me
> 
> it shouldnt be that way every blank contract should cover my costs
> 
> View attachment 210417


By referring to drivers as slaves you are trivializing the hardships real slaves went thru. Drivers have options. Slaves do not.


----------



## Doughie

at-007smartLP said:


> spread, share, participate, or dont #uberunmatched #nationalizeuber
> 
> mit on board & their data cannot be denied
> 
> 96% failure rate $ 3.37 per hour a 1981 Minimum wage 1971 minimum fare 1965-1985 per mile rates in 2018 #HowIsUberLegal #nationalizeuber #jailtravisk #arrestubersboard #uberISmoderndayslavery l#uberhumantrafficking
> 
> View attachment 210212





at-007smartLP said:


> spread, share, participate, or dont #uberunmatched #nationalizeuber
> 
> mit on board & their data cannot be denied
> 
> 96% failure rate $ 3.37 per hour a 1981 Minimum wage 1971 minimum fare 1965-1985 per mile rates in 2018 #HowIsUberLegal #nationalizeuber #jailtravisk #arrestubersboard #uberISmoderndayslavery #uberhumantrafficking
> 
> View attachment 210212


Las Vegas Taxi rates in 1986 were.....
1.70 meter drop
1.40 per mile
.30 per minute

Minimum fare only 1.70
No fee for cancel or no show
Tips averaged 25% of fare

Las Vegas UberX rates in 2018 are....

3.75 base fare and service fee
.96 per mile
.15 per minute

Minimum fare is 7.25
Cancel or no show 5.00
Tip included right?


----------



## at-007smartLP

bsliv said:


> By referring to drivers as slaves you are trivializing the hardships real slaves went thru. Drivers have options. Slaves do not.


slavery is not just whips & chains coerced labor fits the definition

when they say if you cancel to much because you dont want to fufill a blank contract they sent you or your fired thats coersion. you cant say work 80+% of the time for free or your fired, theres a reason subway doesn't sell $5 footlongs for $1 & mcdonalds menu isnt priced at 1970 levels.

there are different forms of slavery

it was abolished & minimum wage laws exists for a reason real humans & slaves died for those rights so future generations would not get exploited. people will work for $2 an hour to put food on the table

paying less than minimum wage in the usa is akin to slavery

people in america willing to work for $2 an hour dont really have many options, while that might be their own fault/doing it doesn't give billionaires the right to exploit them & use their property for free, then discard them because plenty more can be exploited

dont trivilize the millions of lives uber has ruined, cars they have destroyed, industries theyre destroying, traffic theyre creating, lawsthey had been found guilty of and are currently breaking...

1965-1985 wages in 2018 is criminal

there is no justification for JFK paying less for a cab in 1963 than an uber driver in 2018


----------



## ABC123DEF

transporter007 said:


> The way I see it: *No one held a gun to our head nor was driving for uber court ordered. **We are free to do whatever we want
> *
> *How can we complain about something we freely chose??*
> 
> Are we not of sound mind & body?
> Are we insane?
> Are we not responsible for our own decisions ?
> 
> I just don't " get" the shock & protest


The Uber of today is a shell of the Uber of 2014 and earlier.


----------



## Mars Troll Number 4

transporter007 said:


> The way I see it: *No one held a gun to our head nor was driving for uber court ordered. **We are free to do whatever we want
> *
> *How can we complain about something we freely chose??*
> 
> Are we not of sound mind & body?
> Are we insane?
> Are we not responsible for our own decisions ?
> 
> I just don't " get" the shock & protest


I'm going to complain because pay rates are only 40% of what they where when I signed up... (YES less than half)


----------



## transporter007

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> I'm going to complain because pay rates are only 40% of what they where when I signed up... (YES less than half)


We are non-employee independent contractors
Who will u complain to?
Mommy?
Cause she's the only one who will listen

We're independent, that means we're free to do whatever we want, whenever we want.

However, Freedom is never Free

The price we pay is job insecurity


----------



## at-007smartLP

transporter007 said:


> The way I see it: *No one held a gun to our head nor was driving for uber court ordered. **We are free to do whatever we want
> *
> *How can we complain about something we freely chose??*
> 
> Are we not of sound mind & body?
> Are we insane?
> Are we not responsible for our own decisions ?
> 
> I just don't " get" the shock & protest


illegal terms in contracts are not binding

judges have laughed & punished them for their tos, its why we cant be fired for acceptance rate when before hundreds of thousands were

if you sign a lease, and you come home one day to see the landlord on the porch with a new lease & keys, he says you can't go in till you sign a new lease, rents increased 60+%(3 years of 20% cuts, upfront scam...) & you have a roomate in the extra room(no cap on hiring uber every 50feet) & then does it every few months lmao

that would be illegal, i didnt sign up for charity or these rates, just have to click o.k. to get rides till the ponzi crumbles

but if they got rid of the 4% like me who make $40+ an hour what would that $3.37 look like lmao

im cutting off my nose to spite my face i really shouldn't care about these idiots but it would be nice to just drive instead of all these games where im avoiding 90% of the blank contracts they send me trying to get free labor

they have also been sued & lost & currently under more investigation for the bait & switch fraud false advertising ads, went from 90K to 50K to life changing money to $30 an hour to $20 an hour to a gig to a side hustle like selling dime bags or bootlegs lol

no it doesn't take skill but on average 1-2 people will die on the road in your state its a top 5 most dangerous occupation, no on average it shouldnt pay 50K + a year but it shouldn't cost the same as it did in the 1960s-1980s either

predatory pricing predatory wages & this sort of behavior is illegal period, the department of labor needs to shut them down, take it over, & allow someone to purchase that will follow regulations or treat it as a jobs program

losing $9,000 a second 12 million a day & still paying these wages no where close to legit

shouldn't take MIT to figure out it costs more than $2 to drive 1-5 miles pick up 100-500 pounds of anonymous weight school shooters rapists, robbers... & deliver it 1-5 miles in 2018 when that was an acceptable minimum fare in 1971

cabs have partitions for a reason & its not to protect riders... chauffers & private drivers arent human rights and there's a reason poor people dont have them but paying labor an agreed upon legal minimum wage is.

even if mit was off by 4 times it would equal a legal current minimum wage after you figure in costs, a 50 billion dollars algorithm should know not to send out contracts that wont cover costs +

but MIT info cant be ignored, theyll either come back trolling showing its actually less or dkhos made a hefty "donation"


----------



## transporter007

ABC123DEF said:


> The Uber of today is a shell of the Uber of 2014 and earlier.


Agreed. So uber is over. Whatever you did before Uber go back to that job.

Every industry in our country has been effected by technology.
From cashiers to car washes, ground transport, airlines etc etc etc

Low skill Low wage jobs will always be low wage and will get lower until they disappear

WAKE UP: Get a skill
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/training/adulttraining

The Department of Labor's Employment and Training Administration (ETA) provides information on training programs and other services that are available to assist workers who have been laid off or are about to be laid off. For a list of programs nearest you, contact a American Jobs Center, visit America's Service Locatoron the Web, or call ETA's toll-free help line at (877) US-2JOBS (TTY: 1-877-889-5267). Services are designed to meet local needs and may vary from state to state.


----------



## bsliv

at-007smartLP said:


> slavery is not just whips & chains coerced labor fits the definition
> 
> when they say if you cancel to much because you dont want to fufill a blank contract they sent you or your fired thats coersion. you cant say work 80+% of the time for free or your fired, theres a reason subway doesn't sell $5 footlongs for $1 & mcdonalds menu isnt priced at 1970 levels.
> 
> there are different forms of slavery
> 
> it was abolished & minimum wage laws exists for a reason real humans & slaves died for those rights so future generations would not get exploited. people will work for $2 an hour to put food on the table
> 
> paying less than minimum wage in the usa is akin to slavery
> 
> people in america willing to work for $2 an hour dont really have many options, while that might be their own fault/doing it doesn't give billionaires the right to exploit them & use their property for free, then discard them because plenty more can be exploited
> 
> dont trivilize the millions of lives uber has ruined, cars they have destroyed, industries theyre destroying, traffic theyre creating, lawsthey had been found guilty of and are currently breaking...
> 
> 1965-1985 wages in 2018 is criminal
> 
> there is no justification for JFK paying less for a cab in 1963 than an uber driver in 2018


The difference between slavery and freedom is options. Uber coerced me not to drive by them lowering their rates. The average worker is coerced to continue to work in order to get a paycheck. A person in a low paying job or industry should be coerced to find another job or industry.

The person making $2 an hour and eating should be better off than the unemployed person.


----------



## Nats121

RedANT said:


> The flaw in this is assuming that everyone should be making the same amount of money. Income varies greatly depending on market, the hours you work, the area of town you work, your driving habits, etc., and just because some people suck at making money driving doesn't mean that we all do.
> 
> This week I worked 17.5 hrs, I did 31 runs, drove 718 miles and I made $525 Uber + $54 Lyft + $37 cash tips. ($616, or $35.20 /hr gross) Gas cost me $46, assume I set aside $25 for oil changes and put $100 away for a ~$10k replacement vehicle every 2 years.
> 
> $616 - 46 gas - 25 oil changes - 100 savings = $445 / 17.5 = $25.42 /hr NET.
> 
> I know people will scream about depreciation, which is why I figured in $100 /wk for replacement or repairs. Likewise, people will say that I should figure in taxes, however even in private employment, taxes are NOT generally figured into stated salaries.
> 
> Maybe I'm doing it wrong, or maybe others are. The difference is that I'm ok with the above. As a retiree, it sure beats sitting at home watching TV.


Your market is Seattle, which is in the top 5 highest pay rates in the US, which is truly damning with faint praise.

No way could you duplicate your numbers in most other markets, especially places such as Orlando, Detroit, and many others.



majxl said:


> Uber is working for a 2019 IPO (Initial Public Offering) witch will provide billions for their rich investors. For a successful IPO Uber needs to reduce their humongous losses! Since Uber does not have real assets there are only few choice to achieve this:
> raise the rates, add more and more cars or take a bigger chunk of money from their partners... with would mean much lower hourly earnings!


Uber has a gigantic asset, and that's their massive customer and driver database.

That database has the potential to be worth a king's ransom.



UberHammer said:


> Uber's response to this is insane. They say the methods used in the study are flawed.
> 
> Well, let's assume a driver has $0.00 costs per mile and see what it produces.
> 
> If getting $0.59/mile from the fares results in $3.37/hr when the costs per mile are $0.30/mile, then getting $0.59/mile from the fares results in $6.86/hr when the costs per mile are $0.00/mile (3.37/0.29*0.59=6.86).
> 
> So even if the driver has ZERO car costs, they still make less than minimum wage.
> 
> Uber is suffering from two problems: 1) their rates are too low; and 2) they think a driver being online waiting for a ping is a driver that is "not working". So they don't include that time in what they believe a driver makes per hour.


Their rates aren't too low, the driver's rates are too low.

Uber's upfront pricing has resulted in huge fare hikes for many pax.



MadTownUberD said:


> Forget organizing, asking the nanny state to punish Uber for you, etc...these are at best pushing on a rope and at worst counter-productive. *Just find something else to do with your time if you don't like it.*
> 
> I never expected this gig to be more than extra income. The name "Rideshare" kind of implies that you're generously giving someone a ride for enough money to ensure your expenses are covered, plus a little more for your troubles. "Cab", "Limousine", and "Livery" are stronger terms that imply higher compensation...at least the way I see it.


Our "nanny state" federal govt's immigration policy is the main culprit behind the bad pay rates drivers receive.

The govt continues to allow perpetually high numbers of Third World immigrants into this country, which allows scumbag uber and lyft to pay drivers next to nothing.

The majority of luber drivers are Third World immigrants. Americans by and large have abandoned rideshare driving due to the bad pay.

As long as we continue to allow high numbers of Third World immigrants into this country, and as long as those very same immigrants continue to sign up to drive for luber in huge numbers, luber will never have to pay drivers a decent wage.

Luber loses 96% of their drivers every year, but luber is able to survive due to a continuous supply of replacement drivers.



Blatherskite said:


> Sneered the Uber spokesperson: "It would be a pity if some of your surveys got broke."
> 
> Harry had an Uber exec on his program this week and the only reason I listened all the way through was because the guest spoke with such disingenuous corporate optimism that he was interesting as a specimen of repulsiveness. His favorite word was "exciting ".
> 
> As per usual, Harry lobbed him only anodyne softballs.


Harry is a money-grubber who couldn't care less about drivers being hurt by his and fellow money-grubber's referrals flooding the streets with more drivers.


----------



## Jesusdrivesuber

Why does this post constantly lag and time out when loading?

It's not as if that many people were viewing it.


----------



## Nats121

MadTownUberD said:


> So if Uber isn't profitable now, who's going to pay for an increase in driver wages? Yes it sounds great to just give everyone a raise but it has to come from somewhere.


Despite their lies, uber's making a profit on their rideshare in North America.

They're using Hollywood accounting methods to make themselves look broke.

They're spending massive sums of money on their self-driving car program - money that's being diverted away from the drivers.

They've lost lots of money overseas.

In a recent interview, Dara said all of the above if you read between the lines of his comments.



RaleighUber said:


> Psst...the increase will come from higher rates charged to customers. I know that is unthinkable, but it's what's required for rideshare to be profitable for anyone.


The riders are paying more, but uber is pocketing it all


----------



## RedANT

Nats121 said:


> Your market is Seattle, which is in the top 5 highest pay rates in the US, which is truly damning with faint praise.
> 
> No way could you duplicate your numbers in most other markets, especially places such as Orlando, Detroit, and many others.


That's why my original post stated "*Income varies greatly depending on market*, the hours you work, the area of town you work, your driving habits, etc..."


----------



## Yam Digger

"_While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns_"

Translation: we called them and begged them to retract the paper in case prospective drivers read it first and change their minds.


----------



## Nonya busy

tcaud said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/01/uber-lyft-driver-wages-median-report
> 
> This is big. It's the kind of study a judge can't ignore when making a ruling.


Can't wait to see the undercover Uber employee shrills comment saying their making a killer profit and stop complaining.



4.9 driver rating said:


> Ready to strike yet..?? Ummmmmmm thats what I thought....keep feeding the wolves,ants.
> 
> miniscule....you know why ??? Becuase this sorry ass company like Uber/Lyft make the average imbecile, (not me), like Walmart, convince these brainless idiots who cant even balanc a checkbook (unlike me), that this is THE greatest job in the world, which I NEVER bought for 1 second.
> 
> That will be a waste of time..you think the PAX are going to feel sorry for you ???lol....what a DUMB idea.


true, pax will use that study to take advantage even more.


----------



## baymatt

my ride share data from 1/1/18 to 2/5/18

avg Uber % per ride is 39.2% (after removing negative or "divide by 0" totals)

AND

actual Uber % is 39.08% for that time period. 

not to mention i only made 6,934$ after expenses in 2017 driving roughly 1200 HOURS for both LYFT and UBER 

something has to change


----------



## Isitworthit

littlegoodwolf said:


> i think circumstances have to be examined as well. Right now I am cash poor but the equity in my car is high. I am using that equity to squeeze out the cash that I need right now and doing so at my own hours etc... The fact that I can do it tax free bc the mileage deduction outweighs the income is an added bonus. its just what works for me at this moment and lets me pursue a cash-poor life option for a while.


you must deadhead a lot of miles to have your tax deduction exceed your taxable income, yes or no?


----------



## Mars Troll Number 4

Isitworthit said:


> you must deadhead a lot of miles to have your tax deduction exceed your taxable income, yes or no?


You can do it with 50% paid miles in some markets.

Orlando for instance, you need roughly 89% paid miles with no surges on uberX to have a taxable profit. Which is to say... for every 100 miles driven you need 89 paid miles.. reality is... you're lucky to get 49% paid miles. I'm usually in the 35% ratio driving a taxi.

89% is an un-achievable number, like the best i've ever had was about 50%

Orlando (being the worst of the worst) generates about $10.90-13.60 in deductions per hour, while generating about $7.00-9.00 per hour in revenue.

Or one airport run in the early morning, for about $20 with about $25.80 in deductible expenses... that takes 45 minutes from pickup to parked waiting for your next ping.


----------



## Isitworthit

I'm not following you here. When you say paid miles, do you mean deductible miles? My understanding is that you can deduct all miles while online, regardless of whether you are traveling to a pick up or not.


----------



## transporter007

Yam Digger said:


> "_While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns_"
> 
> Translation: we called them and begged them to retract the paper in case prospective drivers read it first and change their minds.


MIT has an Endowment of $14 billion. After that conversation w/ *Iranian Dara Khosrowshahi* it was $14.5 billion

 Connection: Noted MIT alumnus: *Ali Akbar Salehi, Iranian academic*, diplomat and the head of Atomic Energy Organization of Iran


----------



## Jazzbaseball

It depends how you look at it.

From a taxes perspective you don't make much.

From a cash flow perspective it's a different story.


----------



## Syn

El Janitor said:


> Your car looses it's resale value "equity" with every mile, and ding and scratch you put on it. I had a friend who wanted to drive his leased car with Uber, then he realized that he would exceed the miles on his lease and end up paying penalties at the end for going over the mileage. So he decided it was a bad idea because he can do basic math. I put on over 3k miles in a month driving 40 hours a week to make maybe $100 max a day before expenses this is really about average for Uber X in a large city. A car is not like a house unless you have something that is a rare car like maybe a Nissan R34 GTR V Spec, or a Rolls Royce Silver Shadow and so on, which wouldn't qualify for Uber or Lyft anyways. Even the nicest Lexus, Audi, Acura and so on sedan isn't worth much in a decade with over $100,000 miles. Just wait you'll see.


All true - which is why for Uber/Lyft you should get a cheap & reliable car, like Toyota Yaris or Honda Fit. Usually under $15,000 brand new and costs $15 to fill it up. And both cars are extremely reliable, they can easily last well over 200,000 miles.
Its people who buy big Chevy Impalas (or similar cars), which are worth 40% of its purchase value after 3 years even when not used to ride sharing, that are struggling to make money in this business.


----------



## getawaycar

They start to allow tipping but at the same time reduce your per mile earnings. In the end, nothing has changed...180 days of NO change. Uber drivers are even worse off under the new CEO, who is a scary looking guy.

Note to self...don't work for someone who's name you can't pronounce,
doesn't smile, and looks like an angry comic book villain.


----------



## Eugene73

even a caveman could figure out Uber cheats its workers


----------



## tohunt4me

transporter007 said:


> *>just another angle to consider<*
> 
> I know many uber drivers on federal government assistance
> 
> 1. Food stamps aka: Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) FYI when u apply for food stamps the agency asks lots of personal financial questions but doesn't ask about vehicle ownership.
> 2. Supplemental Healthcare aka: Obamacare
> 
> Add the aforementioned costs into the drivers wages and we're well above the minimum wage. How many uber drivers receive rent assistance from their States?
> 
> Food & healthcare are expensive, U may be making $4 an hr, but add in the freebies that other higher wage earners pay and we, as drivers, are at over $20 per hr. (guesstimate)


Oh . . . lets all live off of the Governmemt !

Such Lofty Goals to Aspire to .

So Uber can Give rides away !


----------



## transporter007

tohunt4me said:


> Oh . . . lets all live off of the Governmemt !
> 
> Such Lofty Goals to Aspire to .
> 
> So Uber can Give rides away !


You sir, are a scholar thinking outside the box.
Seriously, as u stated, an argument can be made that the government is supplementing cheap rides.
They may not realize it, it may not of been the original plan, but they kinda are.


----------



## majxl

Eugene73 said:


> even a caveman could figure out Uber cheats its workers


Uber does not employ workers. They are working with partner (independent contractors). And by accepting the conditions lay out by Uber those contractors are cheating themselves and driving very fast to the poor house.


----------



## Eugene73

Even a caveman can figure out Uber cheats its workers, partners, investors, associates, and the government


----------



## at-007smartLP

takes MIT to figure out $2 after gas/expenses to drive 1-5 miles, pick up an anonymous school shooter, rapist, robber, or other 100-500 pounds & deliver it 1-5 miles in 2018 is less than a 1981 minimum wage when that was a legal minimum fare in 1971?

arrest the entire board

seize all assests

start nationwide minimums of

$1.50 a mile .25 a minute $10 minimum gross fares

treat it like a jobs program or sell to a responsible cirporate citizen

#nationalizeuber


----------



## Mars Troll Number 4

I'd settle for the truth getting out, and having scruber / gryft being completely unable to get new drivers, forcing them to massively raise rates and going under when they lose 90% of their rideship. And the whole "rideshare" and "gig" work going the way of child labor, namely getting legislated out of existence.


----------



## Nonya busy

transporter007 said:


> You sir, are a scholar thinking outside the box.
> Seriously, as u stated, an argument can be made that the government is supplementing cheap rides.
> They may not realize it, it may not of been the original plan, but they kinda are.


So true. Sad u can drive for uber 70 hours a week and still qualify for food stamps .

Good thing is once the government figures out they paying for rideshare, they will regulate the price to be a respectable wage.


----------



## BigBadDaddyDriver

What do you guys think about the MIT researcher basically agreeing with the uber economist and admitting his study may be flawed as a way to try and get real data out of Uber/Lyft?



> Lead researcher Stephen M. Zoepf has issued a response and said that he will revisit the study, but he asks that Uber conduct its own open and public assessment of driver profits after expenses related to owning and maintaining a car.
> 
> "Transparency and reproducibility are the foundation of any academic endeavor," Zoepf wrote. "What Hall and Khosrowshahi's assessment laid bare was an assumption about reevenue that I made in the absence of public ride-hailing data and a paucity of independent studies outside Uber's own analyses. In the spirit of collaboration I ask the following from Uber, in keeping with the original objectives of this paper: 1) Help make an open, honest, and public assessment of the range of ride-hailing driver profit after the cost of acquiring, operating and maintaining a vehicle. 2) Transparently present the difference between actual and tax-reportable vehicle expenses used in the business."
> 
> Here is my statement regarding the recent CEEPR working paper "The Economics of Ride Hailing."
> 
> - Stephen Zoepf (@StephenZoepf)


I don't really have a dog in the fight.... I work in one of the higher paid regions and only during busy times as a way to make extra money, so I don't experience the low wages, but I feel for those of you who do.

My personal take away.... trust *NO ONE*, except yourself. Don't trust what Uber/Lyft says the numbers are, and don't trust an obviously skewed "study" regardless of the reputation of the institution the researcher is associated with.

The only thing you can do is look at your own numbers and earnings and decide for yourself whether it is worth it.


----------



## transporter007

BigBadDaddyDriver said:


> What do you guys think about the MIT researcher basically agreeing with the uber economist and admitting his study may be flawed as a way to try and get real data out of Uber/Lyft?
> 
> I don't really have a dog in the fight.... I work in one of the higher paid regions and only during busy times as a way to make extra money, so I don't experience the low wages, but I feel for those of you who do.
> 
> My personal take away.... trust *NO ONE*, except yourself. Don't trust what Uber/Lyft says the numbers are, and don't trust an obviously skewed "study" regardless of the reputation of the institution the researcher is associated with.
> 
> The only thing you can do is look at your own numbers and earnings and decide for yourself whether it is worth it.



I've been doing uber & Lyft for 3 years 
Last year I estimated, after all expenses, I was @ approx $7 hourly.
I drive a 50mpg low maintenance Prius in an urban area P/T 10-20 hrs weekly, I do not chase surges. I rarely make quest. Weekly tips = 10% of gross.
I'm supplementing my F/T salary
My estimate of $7 Is the high end of MIT's median hr wage value.

MIT's study is more right than wrong 
Long term, ride share is Not a viable way to earn a living wage unless you're single in moms basement with her purse nearby.


----------



## Nats121

BigBadDaddyDriver said:


> What do you guys think about the MIT researcher basically agreeing with the uber economist and admitting his study may be flawed as a way to try and get real data out of Uber/Lyft?
> 
> I don't really have a dog in the fight.... I work in one of the higher paid regions and only during busy times as a way to make extra money, so I don't experience the low wages, but I feel for those of you who do.
> 
> My personal take away.... trust *NO ONE*, except yourself. Don't trust what Uber/Lyft says the numbers are, and don't trust an obviously skewed "study" regardless of the reputation of the institution the researcher is associated with.
> 
> The only thing you can do is look at your own numbers and earnings and decide for yourself whether it is worth it.


It looks like uber got to him through bribery and/or threats of lawsuits and even bodily harm. If it's neither of those things, he's flat our incompetent.

Seeing that MIT is such a prestigious school, it seems unlikely he could be that incompetent.

Sure you have a dog in the fight. Even though your rates are among the highest uber pays, they still suck. They're way below what taxis get.


----------



## melusine3

at-007smartLP said:


> Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds
> 
> Majority of drivers make less than minimum wage and many end up losing money, according to study published by MIT
> 
> Sam Levin in San Francisco @SamTLevin
> Email
> 
> Thu 1 Mar 2018 21.09 EST
> Last modified on Thu 1 Mar 2018 21.14 EST
> uber car
> 
> Uber and Lyft drivers in the US make a median profit of $3.37 per hour before taxes, according to a new report that suggests a majority of ride-share workers make below minimum wage and that many actually lose money.
> 
> Researchers did an analysis of vehicle cost data and a survey of over 1,100 drivers for the ride-hailing companies for the paper published by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research. The report - which factored in insurance, maintenance, repairs, fuel and other costs - found that 30% of drivers are losing money on the job and that 74% earn less than the minimum wage in their states.
> 
> The findings have raised fresh concerns about labor standards in the booming sharing economy as companies like Uber and Lyft continue to face scrutiny over their treatment of drivers, who are classified as independent contractors and have few rights or protections.
> 
> "This business model is not currently sustainable," said Stephen Zoepf, executive director of the Center for Automotive Research at Stanford University and co-author of the paper. "The companies are losing money. The businesses are being subsidized by [venture capital] money &#8230; And the drivers are essentially subsidizing it by working for very low wages."
> All workers need unions - including those in Silicon Valley
> Chi Onwurah
> Read more
> 
> Drivers earn a median of 59 cents per mile while incurring a median cost of 30 cents per mile, the report said, adding that for nearly a third of drivers, the costs are ultimately higher than the revenue. The paper reported the average driver profit to be $661 per month.
> 
> While most drivers use vehicles for personal use and ride-hailing services, the bulk of the miles they drive are for work, which can lead to significant short-term and long-term costs, the paper said.
> 
> Given inevitable costs of maintenance, repair and depreciation, "effectively what you're doing as a driver is borrowing against the value of your car," Zoepf said, adding: "It's quite possible that drivers don't realize quite how much they are spending."
> 
> Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job.
> 
> Harry Campbell, founder of the Rideshare Guy, a website that has conducted surveys of drivers, said the finding of a $3.37 median hourly profit seemed a bit low, but noted that new drivers were often surprised by the wages.
> 
> "The most common feedback we hear from drivers is they end up earning a lot less than they expected," said Campbell, who partnered with Zoepf on the surveys used in the paper. "There is a lot of turnover in the industry, and that's the number one reason I hear from drivers why they are quitting - they are not making enough."
> 
> Campbell pointed out that Uber itself had struggled to properly consider vehicle costs. Last year, the company shut down its US auto-leasing business after discovering it was losing 18 times more money per vehicle than it had previously understood. Some drivers claimed that the leasing program trapped them in debt.
> 
> An Uber spokesperson broadly criticized the research in a statement: "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."
> 
> Lyft did not respond to a request for comment.


Deeply flawed only because they weren't using UberMath.



Blatherskite said:


> Sneered the Uber spokesperson: "It would be a pity if some of your surveys got broke."
> 
> Harry had an Uber exec on his program this week and the only reason I listened all the way through was because the guest spoke with such disingenuous corporate optimism that he was interesting as a specimen of repulsiveness. His favorite word was "exciting ".
> 
> As per usual, Harry lobbed him only anodyne softballs.


Harry's not impartial At All. He stands to make bank from collecting referral bonuses for both platforms. I know, I joined Lyft under his name. He shouldn't do this at all IMO.



HotUberMess said:


> "This report's methodology is flawed", claims corporate hack from company with 96% turnover rate


I would love to see studies of those who quit Uber/Lyft after a short while; "veterans" those who've stuck with it; and new drivers (who probably make more than the average "veteran" driver.



littlegoodwolf said:


> i think circumstances have to be examined as well. Right now I am cash poor but the equity in my car is high. I am using that equity to squeeze out the cash that I need right now and doing so at my own hours etc... The fact that I can do it tax free bc the mileage deduction outweighs the income is an added bonus. its just what works for me at this moment and lets me pursue a cash-poor life option for a while.


Are you aware if you have extended warranty insurance on your car, they can refuse you because you're using it for rideshare? Also, the expected life expectancy of our cars is three years?



getawaycar said:


> And unlike regular employees rideshare drivers aren't eligible for unemployment or disability benefits if they are laid off or injured on the job. Even though they pay more taxes, they get no benefits of any kind.


EVERY sick passenger I pick up, I get sick and end up not driving 3-4 days. I had a pickup at an urgent care center and I considered cancelling, but didn't. He had the flu. Two days later, guess how came down with the flu? Got Tamiflu but was still off work 3 days. Now I have a cold, have been off 4 days.



SurgeWarrior said:


> Where are your figures for the dead miles on the return?


Plus the miles driving toward the rider?



goneubering said:


> I'm surprised only 30% of drivers are losing money. It seems like that number would be much higher.


If they relied on drivers to self-report, I'm sure most of them didn't admit they aren't paid for destination to miles and deadhead back, and just driving around hoping for pings. Personally, I've found that sitting still can net you no rides, but driving around increases your chances of getting a ride. For those who say deadhead miles after a ride are completely wrong. When you've driven 100 miles out of town for a ride, your 100 mile drive back does NOT apply to the next ride. Not at all.


----------



## melusine3

KenLV said:


> Are these serious questions?
> 
> It's paid for the same way most businesses pay for an increase in wages/expenses - they pass it on to the customer.
> 
> For rideshare, that means: Higher rates paid by riders.
> 
> Riders pay less than a dollar a mile in most markets (for X and regular Lyft). It could double and STILL be lower than cabs. Here it could almost triple.
> 
> Are you going to lose some customers?
> 
> Of course. But the ones you lose are customers you didn't want. They literally didn't value your service/business.


Uber should charge PER PASSENGER for these rides. I pick up 4 passengers to drive them to a fancy restaurant and they're paying the equivalent of a bus ride each? Wrong on so many levels.


----------



## melusine3

Trafficat said:


> Depends where you are. Not all places have a $3.75 minimum payout. And not every place will yield 3 rides per hour.


Minimum payout in my town is $3.00; Rides are NOT 3 per hour, I can go for 2 hours with no rides. Per mile is .65 and gas is expensive in Calif.


----------



## TedJ

WOuldn't be so bad if Uber wasn't taking over 50% of the fare. three deceit fares today uber getting 51% and I get 49% on a 30 dollar fare. I understand it's their app. But if they stopped screwing the drivers over and hiring so many customer service people because they refuse to issue with their app. They could be making more money instead of wasting it on bad programmers and silly schemes to rip off their riders and drivers. Oh and today I had a UberX trip somehow mysteriously turn into a uber pool. Sound impossible? For some reason the app kept asking to stay offline or return to online. Interesting since I was never offline in the 1st place. Then the app shut off saying my destination trips had timed out 7 miles away from my destination. I used to be able to go all the way to my house before it would want to time out. Then it started timing out 3 miles from my house NOW IT's 7 miles away. They really are working on making it better for the drivers in the last 180 days.


----------



## Nats121

melusine3 said:


> Uber should charge PER PASSENGER for these rides. I pick up 4 passengers to drive them to a fancy restaurant and they're paying the equivalent of a bus ride each? Wrong on so many levels.


The first problem with the study is Harry Campbell's survey. It was sent in by his readers who don't represent the average driver.


----------



## dnlbaboof

this study is awful it makes uber look like they were the victim of a bad study, so now anyone that claims uber drivers dont make much theyll be dismissed bc of how awful this study was designed. They should just go to a town where the rate per mile is 65 cents like orlando and prove at most you make like 10 bucks an hour after gas and depreciation of your car.....


----------



## TedJ

Nats121 said:


> The first problem with the study is Harry Campbell's survey. It was sent in by his readers who don't represent the average driver.


good point


----------



## Nats121

dnlbaboof said:


> this study is awful it makes uber look like they were the victim of a bad study, so now anyone that claims uber drivers dont make much theyll be dismissed bc of how awful this study was designed. They should just go to a town where the rate per mile is 65 cents like orlando and prove at most you make like 10 bucks an hour after gas and depreciation of your car.....


Orlando drivers get 53 cents per mile after uber's cut


----------



## dnlbaboof

pretty simple, go to a city where the rate per mile is below 75 cents, divide the hours driven from total pay per week, subtract for gas and car depreciation using a site like kelly blue book..........


----------



## Nats121

dnlbaboof said:


> this study is awful it makes uber look like they were the victim of a bad study, so now anyone that claims uber drivers dont make much theyll be dismissed bc of how awful this study was designed. They should just go to a town where the rate per mile is 65 cents like orlando and prove at most you make like 10 bucks an hour after gas and depreciation of your car.....


If want to be conspiratorial, you could say maybe the bad study was a false flag.


----------



## BigBadDaddyDriver

transporter007 said:


> I've been doing uber & Lyft for 3 years
> Last year I estimated, after all expenses, I was @ approx $7 hourly.
> I drive a 50mpg low maintenance Prius in an urban area P/T 10-20 hrs weekly, I do not chase surges. I rarely make quest. Weekly tips = 10% of gross.
> I'm supplementing my F/T salary
> My estimate of $7 Is the high end of MIT's median hr wage value.
> MIT's study is more right than wrong
> Long term, ride share is Not a viable way to earn a living wage unless you're single in moms basement with her purse nearby.


Been doing it for 3 years, so I guess $7 an hour is worth it to you... I am not sure I would be driving for that much.... although I do come home with some good stories most nights. That's worth at least a couple bucks in chuckles for myself and friends/family.

Hard to say MIT's study is any amount right, when the researcher pretty much said, "Awwww, you got me, Uber, good catch, wink wink, now give us some *real* data why dontchya"

I totally agree, Ride share is not a legit full time job, and I think there in lies part of the problem.... Was it ever meant to be? Did Uber/Lyft posture as such? I got into it as a way to make extra money a few hours a week during peak times with supreme flexibility, and that's how the ads pitched it... Maybe there were other "full time" ads I missed?

BTW, I know it means less to others, but that flexibility, at least for me really IS the key. If I sit in a parking lot for even a couple minutes and no pings... I go home and go to bed. *ANY* time spent without your wheels moving is going to kill you $/hr...



Nats121 said:


> It looks like uber got to him through bribery and/or *threats of lawsuits* and even bodily harm. If it's neither of those things, he's flat our incompetent.
> 
> Seeing that MIT is such a prestigious school, it seems unlikely he could be that incompetent.
> 
> Sure you have a dog in the fight. *Even though your rates are among the highest uber pays, they still suck*. They're way below what taxis get.


I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a very large, very scary looking libel lawsuit sitting the researchers doorstep this morning, and one on any name even obliquely tied to the story or study. The comment by the research and subsequent silence from MIT is VERY odd. People claim studies about them are wrong ALL the time. I have NEVER ONCE seen a researcher back about from his own work at all let alone this quickly with a pretty much blanket Mea Culpa... Very odd.

Uber clearly has all of the money and lawyer resources in the world... And 8 figure lawsuits are pretty damn scary...

I have no hope or expectation that rates will change at all because of this study... But I do hope that at least a few riders will have seen the news blurb and will think about tipping when they wouldn't have at all or leaving a larger tip.

In many ways driving for rideshare, especially in the rate depressed regions is like working as a waitress in Texas or other states where there is a lower minimum wage for service/tip workers. At least when I lived in Texas the minimum wage for servers was only $2 an hour while federal minimum wage was ~7... The extra per hour in tips was assumed for wait staff and so the logic was that you could pay them less. Imagine my surprise when I moved to Oregon which just had a flat $9/hr min for everyone... Waiting tables at a nice restaurant was a better gig than many BSs out of school could get! The key would be to ingrain in riders that a 15% tip is the *societal expectation* per ride, not the once in a blue moon it is now.



melusine3 said:


> Minimum payout in my town is $3.00; Rides are NOT 3 per hour,* I can go for 2 hours with no rides*. Per mile is .65 and gas is expensive in Calif.


Why are you sitting around when no one wants rides? This is one of the few things I don't understand about people complaining about poor wages (I agree wages need to go up), however if you choose to sit around doing nothing... Why is that Uber or Lyfts fault? It's like if I show up at home depot at 6:30 am hoping for some labor work, but I didn't realize it was sunday and no one is working and then I complain that I made $0 and hour... well duh, of course you did! Nowhere does Uber guarantee anything about the # of rides you will get.

The *GREATEST* benefit that rideshare gives its drivers is supreme and ultimate flexibility. But with great power comes great responsibility. If you really are sitting in a parking lot for 2 hours with ZERO pings... Turn the app off and go scrounge the trash/recycle bins for pop cans to take in for the refund, that's a much better use of your time. It should be pretty obvious what times in your area you can make money and when things are dead. It's like fishing, you have to learn what your favorite times and spots are. Blaming uber for no rides is like blaming the sand when you decide to try to fish on the beach instead of in the ocean, smh


----------



## Nats121

What


BigBadDaddyDriver said:


> Been doing it for 3 years, so I guess $7 an hour is worth it to you... I am not sure I would be driving for that much.... although I do come home with some good stories most nights. That's worth at least a couple bucks in chuckles for myself and friends/family.
> 
> Hard to say MIT's study is any amount right, when the researcher pretty much said, "Awwww, you got me, Uber, good catch, wink wink, now give us some *real* data why dontchya"
> 
> I totally agree, Ride share is not a legit full time job, and I think there in lies part of the problem.... Was it ever meant to be? Did Uber/Lyft posture as such? I got into it as a way to make extra money a few hours a week during peak times with supreme flexibility, and that's how the ads pitched it... Maybe there were other "full time" ads I missed?
> 
> BTW, I know it means less to others, but that flexibility, at least for me really IS the key. If I sit in a parking lot for even a couple minutes and no pings... I go home and go to bed. *ANY* time spent without your wheels moving is going to kill you $/hr...
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a very large, very scary looking libel lawsuit sitting the researchers doorstep this morning, and one on any name even obliquely tied to the story or study. The comment by the research and subsequent silence from MIT is VERY odd. People claim studies about them are wrong ALL the time. I have NEVER ONCE seen a researcher back about from his own work at all let alone this quickly with a pretty much blanket Mea Culpa... Very odd.
> 
> Uber clearly has all of the money and lawyer resources in the world... And 8 figure lawsuits are pretty damn scary...
> 
> I have no hope or expectation that rates will change at all because of this study... But I do hope that at least a few riders will have seen the news blurb and will think about tipping when they wouldn't have at all or leaving a larger tip.
> 
> In many ways driving for rideshare, especially in the rate depressed regions is like working as a waitress in Texas or other states where there is a lower minimum wage for service/tip workers. At least when I lived in Texas the minimum wage for servers was only $2 an hour while federal minimum wage was ~7... The extra per hour in tips was assumed for wait staff and so the logic was that you could pay them less. Imagine my surprise when I moved to Oregon which just had a flat $9/hr min for everyone... Waiting tables at a nice restaurant was a better gig than many BSs out of school could get! The key would be to ingrain in riders that a 15% tip is the *societal expectation* per ride, not the once in a blue moon it is now.


Not only was the report changed, it was changed incredibly quickly.

This whole thing doesn't pass the smell test.


----------



## KenLV

TedJ said:


> -Then the app shut off saying my destination trips had timed out 7 miles away from my destination. I used to be able to go all the way to my house before it would want to time out. Then it started timing out 3 miles from my house NOW IT's 7 miles away. They really are working on making it better for the drivers in the last 180 days.


If you have the Uber app in the background for 8 minutes it asks if you want to go offline? If you don't click "stay online" it times out.

I use destination mode nightly and it gives me the "timed out" message (for being close to my destination) less than a quarter mile from my home.



BigBadDaddyDriver said:


> Ride share is not a legit full time job, and I think there in lies part of the problem.... Was it ever meant to be? Did Uber/Lyft posture as such?


Not only have they done so, they actually used it (drivers choosing to NOT drive full time) as a defense as to why drivers weren't making the income Uber said they could (as a full time job):

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/19/uber-settlement-20-million-drivers-earnings/


----------



## at-007smartLP

melusine3 said:


> Uber should charge PER PASSENGER for these rides. I pick up 4 passengers to drive them to a fancy restaurant and they're paying the equivalent of a bus ride each? Wrong on so many levels.


yup simple rates

$1.50 a mile
.25 a minute
$10 minimum gross per ride 
for 1 Pax

when they request the choose how many other with them, .10 a mile per additional person

2x surge on national holidays

.20 per mile extea for 11pm-4am

dont show destination but direction & approx miles away destination is so drivers can least be efficient i.e...

NE 7 miles BEFORE driver sees pings

discounts on partitions & dash cams for those who work nights

easy peezy everyone happy 100% acceptence and only legit cancels

oh well



Nats121 said:


> If want to be conspiratorial, you could say maybe the bad study was a false flag.


there was no bad study uber bribed mit to change it & it still came out to less than min wage for 41% of drivers

you dont need MIT to google cab rates throughput history & line them up to ubers 2018 rates lmao

1965-1985 per mile/min in 90+% of markets

1971 minimum fare after gas/expenses in 2018

thats 4th grade level math not MIT


----------



## Kodyhead

Nats121 said:


> Orlando drivers get 53 cents per mile after uber's cut


Yeah but if you add and recalculate with badges, drivers make $0.53/mile


----------



## RideGuy

This is BS. I make a minimum of $150 per night minus $40 for gas. This normally happens in a 5 hour period-especially this time of year. When I drive, Uber loses money. You have to know how to play the game and run a profitable business. How to profit and receive the maximum legal write offs possible on your taxes.

The money is out there. It's all about timing and location.



Kodyhead said:


> Yeah but if you add and recalculate with badges, drivers make $0.53/mile


Uber does not take away from your earnings per mile. What they charge the pax has nothing to do with your earnings.


----------



## BigBadDaddyDriver

KenLV said:


> Not only have they done so, they actually used it (drivers choosing to NOT drive full time) as a defense as to why drivers weren't making the income Uber said they could (as a full time job):
> 
> https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/19/uber-settlement-20-million-drivers-earnings/


Hahahaha, 90k a year, Uber you silly *****....

Yeah they should and did get slapped on the wrist for that BS advertising. Uber might be able to make a profit if it could stop shooting itself in teh foot with idiotic lawsuits... Did we ever find out how much Uber had to pay Waymo to go away?

I am not in those markets, and never saw those ads, seems like now they market themselves as more of a side hustle, not full time.

However if if I did want to be full time it would be on me to maximize my $/hr with smart driving, I am not sure how Uber can really control that... However if I was to make one big change to uber driver payments it wouldn't actually be to the rate per mile... it would be the _*rate per minute. *_10-20 cents is just dumb. Idling my car takes more money than that... It should be at least 50 cents a minute in all regions.

Funny coincidence happened last night and it leads me to an honest question... my wife is an hourly worker at the hospital here in town. Last night was a particularly slow night and half the staff got sent home half way through the shift. She works 12 hour shifts and makes $12 and hour. Since she got sent home year she made $12 an hour for 6 hours and $0 dollars an hour for another 6 hours. In your guys' minds does that now mean that she actually makes $6 dollars an hour for that shift? I mean she did reserve those 6 hours she was sent home as work time...

The corollary would be if I go out for 4 hours driving, 2 are hopping and I make $40 2 are dead and I make $0... Did I make $20 per hour for that shift? Did I make $10 per hour for that shift? My favorite part of doing Uber is I AM THE MANAGER! If it is slow I can send myself home to drink bourbon and watch Netflix!

Regardless of how you want to count you expenses and depreciation, etc. One question that needs to be asked in future studies is how well do you manage your time driving, how many minutes/hours do you spend just waiting?


----------



## at-007smartLP

RideGuy said:


> This is BS. I make a minimum of $150 per night minus $40 for gas. This normally happens in a 5 hour period-especially this time of year. When I drive, Uber loses money. You have to know how to play the game and run a profitable business. How to profit and receive the maximum legal write offs possible on your taxes.
> 
> The money is out there. It's all about timing and location.
> 
> Uber does not take away from your earnings per mile. What they charge the pax has nothing to do with your earnings.


ever heard of the word anecdotal? congratulations you are the 4% that succeed based on numerous factors, strategies, locations, circumstances....

96% arent failing cuz it pays minimum wage

anything less than walking with $10 a trip is a loss unless youre a 12 year old boy in 1985 don't need MIT for that

$4. $2 after gas & expenses was a 1971 minimum fare.

its 2018

47 years ago the first godfather was just coming out, no star wars jaws, the movie deepthroat didn't exist, no vcrs, no cell phones, TVs weighed 1000 pounds, vietnam was still poppin off & crack hadn't even been invented yet, gas was .40 a gallon & kids rock & socked robots for fun... the microprocessor was invented in 1971 & in 2018 is being used to enslave humans how quaint..

college not necessary its literally human trafficking AND modern day slavery AND a ponzi scam operating freely with the government's protection, violating human AND constitutional rights AND labor laws AND anti competitive behavior AND wage theft AND tax fraud AND numerous other illegal antics in the process

you cant save stupid people from themselves and you cant defeat evil that can put a missle through your cell phone...

screen, 1 star & unmatch from every ride that doesn't gross least $10 AND be part of the 4% that succeed and clear $40 an hour or dont AND think you wont fail by design like 96% cuz eventually taking all the smart drivers scraps you will get in anbaccident, a ticket, or a major repair AND doh you just drove all month or months driving for free.

if this dont shut em down nothing will theyll start eating kittens, puppies, and babies on youtube its apparent humanity as lost its way

$2

haha
i want my $2
and yall seriously accepting & risking life for 1985 CHILDS pay so sad, start trip, not $30+ CANCEL easy peasy or be ubers bottom batches


----------



## Nonya busy

transporter007 said:


> I've been doing uber & Lyft for 3 years
> Last year I estimated, after all expenses, I was @ approx $7 hourly.
> I drive a 50mpg low maintenance Prius in an urban area P/T 10-20 hrs weekly, I do not chase surges. I rarely make quest. Weekly tips = 10% of gross.
> I'm supplementing my F/T salary
> My estimate of $7 Is the high end of MIT's median hr wage value.
> MIT's study is more right than wrong
> Long term, ride share is Not a viable way to earn a living wage unless you're single in moms basement with her purse nearby.


Any one who is a real driver and not an undercover employee knows the mit study is accurate or optimistic.



Nats121 said:


> It looks like uber got to him through bribery and/or threats of lawsuits and even bodily harm. If it's neither of those things, he's flat our incompetent.
> 
> Seeing that MIT is such a prestigious school, it seems unlikely he could be that incompetent.
> 
> Sure you have a dog in the fight. Even though your rates are among the highest uber pays, they still suck. They're way below what taxis get.


Not just he but a whole team of MIT researchers.


----------



## RedANT

Nonya busy said:


> Any one who is a real driver and not an undercover employee knows the mit study is accurate or optimistic.
> 
> Not just he but a whole team of MIT researchers.


I'm sorry, I need help doing the math to figure out how I only make sub $4 wages.

Week to date:

Uber - $336
Lyft - $144
Cash Tips: $10
Total: $490

Hours worked: 12.5 hrs

$490/12.5=$39.20 /hr

Show me how to depreciate that to a sub $4 wage.

These guys may attend MIT, but that means jack shit unless they're driving for Uber. All they're doing is guessing.


----------



## Nats121

RideGuy said:


> This is BS. I make a minimum of $150 per night minus $40 for gas. This normally happens in a 5 hour period-especially this time of year. When I drive, Uber loses money. You have to know how to play the game and run a profitable business. How to profit and receive the maximum legal write offs possible on your taxes.
> 
> The money is out there. It's all about timing and location.
> 
> Uber does not take away from your earnings per mile. What they charge the pax has nothing to do with your earnings.


What's BS is your response.

You're driving XL, with rates that are more than double uber X.

There's no freaking way you'd gross anything remotely close to $30 an hour driving X with the shitty rates it has.

And even with the higher rates, your fuel consumption alone reduces your take to $22 an hour. And that doesn't account for further expenses such as vehicle maintenance, depreciation, insurance,etc,etc

You're not running a business, you're a piece rate employee who thinks they're a business owner.

Not only does uber set the prices and all the rules for your "business", uber has the power to shut down your so-called business at any time for any reason it chooses.

In other words, uber can fire your ass any time it wants for any reason it chooses to.


----------



## BigBadDaddyDriver

RideGuy said:


> This is BS. I make a minimum of $150 per night minus $40 for gas. This normally happens in a 5 hour period-especially this time of year. When I drive, Uber loses money. You have to know how to play the game and run a profitable business. How to profit and receive the maximum legal write offs possible on your taxes.
> 
> The money is out there. It's all about timing and location.


Well, Uber always loses money anyways.... billions a year... but they want it that way (just ask Amazon). You, managing your time well doesn't actually change their take at all...

Be ready for a blizzard of posts from all the economics majors on here telling you that after depreciation you actually lost money:



Code:


Revenue:  $150
Costs:    $40 (gas)
          $40 (future maintenance)
          $80 (some asinine depreciation value)
Profit:  -$10 (DAMN! You actually lost money!)

One of the things that surprised me the most about the MIT study was how brusquely they used the depreciation hammer. I am not pooh poohing maintenance costs or depreciation (I just had to replace my brakes, I feel the pain), those costs are real, but depreciation is WAY more nuanced than just plunking down a cents per mile in the costs column. MAINTENANCE and NOT depreciation is where the real "hidden" costs to ubering are...



Nats121 said:


> *You're driving XL, with rates that are more than double uber X.*
> 
> You're not running a business, you're a piece rate employee who thinks they're a business owner.
> 
> Not only does uber set the prices and all the rules for your "business", uber has the power to shut down your so-called business at any time for any reason it chooses. In other words, uber can fire your ass any time it wants for any reason it chooses to.


DANG! Where do you work! I WISH XL was double the rate! I drive XL, and the rate is only 30 cents more a mile, 10 cent more per minute and 60 cents more base fare.

Also, and maybe I am just dumb, but as far as I can tell there is no way to *only* work XL, you can ignore all the X requests, but I would rather drive an X than not be driving.... I tend to just accept any trip that isn't overly far away and I average slightly under 50% XL trips. You are right though, IMO, it is a big advantage driving XL.

You can say that I am not running a business and that Uber can fire me at any time, etc. But in reality it is all just semantics. Whatever you want to call it, I am in charge of the times I work, the places I work, and the rides I accept, completely. Uber has zero control over those things. I can use those things to maximize my profits or not, that is up to me.

Yup Uber controls the pricing, lets fight for higher rates, but in the meantime if you don't like them don't drive, or only drive when rates are higher
Yup Uber controls the rules, and many of those rules create good earning potential for the driver and many create bad earning potential, learn the rules and work them for maximum profit.
Yup Uber can fire me, so, uh, don't get fired, unless you want to be.

BTW, all those things are true for any business owner as well, just replace Uber with "The Market" or "The Customer". All Uber/Lyft/Rideshare is, is an interface to the taxi market and customers without having to actually work for a Taxi company.


----------



## Nats121

RedANT said:


> I'm sorry, I need help doing the math to figure out how I only make sub $4 wages.
> 
> Week to date:
> 
> Uber - $336
> Lyft - $144
> Cash Tips: $10
> Total: $490
> 
> Hours worked: 12.5 hrs
> 
> $490/12.5=$39.20 /hr
> 
> Show me how to depreciate that to a sub $4 wage.
> 
> These guys may attend MIT, but that means jack shit unless they're driving for Uber. All they're doing is guessing.


You can't credibly use your tiny sample for one driver from one of the top 5 highest priced uber markets and then claim the study is bogus.

Suffice to say, your tiny sample doesn't come anywhere near being representative of the typical uber driver.


----------



## BigBadDaddyDriver

Forum Question: Is there a setting to turn off the coalescing of subsequent posts? I would rather have several bite sized posts than a giant TL;DR post...


----------



## Nats121

BigBadDaddyDriver said:


> Well, Uber always loses money anyways.... billions a year... but they want it that way (just ask Amazon). You, managing your time well doesn't actually change their take at all...
> 
> Be ready for a blizzard of posts from all the economics majors on here telling you that after depreciation you actually lost money:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Revenue:  $150
> Costs:    $40 (gas)
> $40 (future maintenance)
> $80 (some asinine depreciation value)
> Profit:  -$10 (DAMN! You actually lost money!)
> 
> One of the things that surprised me the most about the MIT study was how brusquely they used the depreciation hammer. I am not pooh poohing maintenance costs or depreciation (I just had to replace my brakes, I feel the pain), those costs are real, but depreciation is WAY more nuanced than just plunking down a cents per mile in the costs column. MAINTENANCE and NOT depreciation is where the real "hidden" costs to ubering are...
> 
> DANG! Where do you work! I WISH XL was double the rate! I drive XL, and the rate is only 30 cents more a mile, 10 cent more per minute and 60 cents more base fare.
> 
> Also, and maybe I am just dumb, but as far as I can tell there is no way to *only* work XL, you can ignore all the X requests, but I would rather drive an X than not be driving.... I tend to just accept any trip that isn't overly far away and I average slightly under 50% XL trips. You are right though, IMO, it is a big advantage driving XL.
> 
> You can say that I am not running a business and that Uber can fire me at any time, etc. But in reality it is all just semantics. Whatever you want to call it, I am in charge of the times I work, the places I work, and the rides I accept, completely. Uber has zero control over those things. I can use those things to maximize my profits or not, that is up to me.
> 
> Yup Uber controls the pricing, lets fight for higher rates, but in the meantime if you don't like them don't drive, or only drive when rates are higher
> Yup Uber controls the rules, and many of those rules create good earning potential for the driver and many create bad earning potential, learn the rules and work them for maximum profit.
> Yup Uber can fire me, so, uh, don't get fired, unless you want to be.
> 
> BTW, all those things are true for any business owner as well, just replace Uber with "The Market" or "The Customer". All Uber/Lyft/Rideshare is, is an interface to the taxi market and customers without having to actually work for a Taxi company.


In his particular market, which is Fort Lauderdale in Florida, the XL rates are more than double X rates.

In most other markets, the difference between XL and X is much less.

The whole study itself was built on a dubious foundation, which was Harry Campbell's survey.

Instead of it being a scientific survey that carefully uses a true cross section of people, his survey was from drivers sending him what they claimed to be their earnings data.

Putting aside the issue of the accuracy of each driver's own data, the driver sample is invalid because it's not a true cross section of uber drivers.

Driver websites like this one and Harry's attract the elite drivers who earn more, often much more than the average uber driver.

Suffice to say that drivers who hang out at this site are NOT your average uber driver, and any driver earnings data from sites like this are not representative of what most uber drivers earn.

The typical uber driver is a Third World immigrant, often with poor or limited English skills who's struggling to gross $10 per hour and wouldn't know Upnet or Harry Campbell from a hole in the wall, and they didn't participate in Harry's survey.

So the very earnings survey the study relied on for data is inflated and invalid.

The result is the earnings reported in the study is INFLATED.


----------



## Mars Troll Number 4

RedANT said:


> I'm sorry, I need help doing the math to figure out how I only make sub $4 wages.
> 
> Week to date:
> 
> Uber - $336
> Lyft - $144
> Cash Tips: $10
> Total: $490
> 
> Hours worked: 12.5 hrs
> 
> $490/12.5=$39.20 /hr
> 
> Show me how to depreciate that to a sub $4 wage.
> 
> These guys may attend MIT, but that means jack shit unless they're driving for Uber. All they're doing is guessing.


Your in Seattle...

That's all we need to say...

For the 100000000000000000000000000000000thTime... Seattle has the highest rates in the country on top of being a busy market.

If I remember right...
There are not any higher priced markets without major asterisks skewing numbers. NYC is higher but thats a special case with extra expenses.

If I lived in Seattle I would be driving Uber and if you lived in Orlando you wouldn't getting $100 a day doing Uber for 10 hours. MINUS EXPENSES!

Let alone anything close to $200, while $400 is so far beyond the point of being possible it's sickening.

Seattle cars don't cost double the price or cars in Orlando and even if gas was double the price it would still only be about a 10% increased cost.

Yet your getting double per mile with UberX and the highest services in Seattle getting 254% of the highest level service compared to Orlando.

x in Seattle is $1.01 per mile
X in Orlando is 53c

SUV In Seattle $4.20 minus Uber's cut and select in Orlando is $1.65

Yes Seattle is a more expensive market to live in, however the fact that big cities have more fares per hour/day compensates for that.

So please..... please please please understand that you are the 1%. Why is it that I have to keep telling this to you?

The fact that you don't have all my arguments memorized by now suspects that your s troll for Uber.

I have never once pretended to be anything but a troll for a cab company... please just admit what you are! And stop making it seem like Seattle is a typical experience; instead of the way above average it really is.

This is getting to be too much... it really is.


----------



## BigBadDaddyDriver

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> * And stop making it seem like Seattle is a typical experience*; instead of the way above average it really is.


THIS should be our rallying cry: MAKE SEATTLE THE NORM! Or even better, MAKE SEATTLE THE MINIMUM!


----------



## RaleighNick

BigBadDaddyDriver said:


> THIS should be our rallying cry: MAKE SEATTLE THE NORM! Or even better, MAKE SEATTLE THE MINIMUM!


Isn't there some kind of driver organization out there? Hmmmm


----------



## Isitworthit

melusine3 said:


> Uber should charge PER PASSENGER for these rides. I pick up 4 passengers to drive them to a fancy restaurant and they're paying the equivalent of a bus ride each? Wrong on so many levels.


I would be happy with $1 or $2 for each additional passenger. At least that way you're kind of sort of getting a tip. I've rarely had a group of more than two tip. maddening!


----------



## transporter007

RedANT said:


> I'm sorry, I need help doing the math to figure out how I only make sub $4 wages.
> 
> Week to date:
> 
> Uber - $336
> Lyft - $144
> Cash Tips: $10
> Total: $490
> 
> Hours worked: 12.5 hrs
> 
> $490/12.5=$39.20 /hr
> 
> Show me how to depreciate that to a sub $4 wage.
> 
> These guys may attend MIT, but that means jack shit unless they're driving for Uber. All they're doing is guessing.


Most of us don't lead ur charmed life, we have the below expenses:

Gas
Insurance 
Registration
Inspections
Tires
Car care cleaning
Brakes
Oil changes, filters
General wear & tear
Depreciation 
Drivers don't earn money, we're borrowing money against our asset


----------



## RedANT

Mears Troll Number 4 said:


> Your in Seattle...
> 
> That's all we need to say...
> 
> For the 100000000000000000000000000000000thTime... Seattle has the highest rates in the country on top of being a busy market.
> 
> This is getting to be too much... it really is.


I'll quote him...

"Any one who is a real driver and not an undercover employee knows the mit study is accurate or optimistic."

His claim is that EVERYONE is making shitty wages regardless of location. For the 1000th time, that is NOT universally true, and I'm simply pointing out the fallacy of that claim.

Just because people live in shitty markets doesn't mean that we're all doing shitty.


----------



## transporter007

RaleighNick said:


> Isn't there some kind of driver organization out there? Hmmmm


----------



## RedANT

transporter007 said:


> Most of us don't lead ur charmed life, we have the below expenses:
> 
> Gas
> Insurance
> Registration
> Inspections
> Tires
> Car care cleaning
> Brakes
> Oil changes, filters
> General wear & tear
> Depreciation
> Drivers don't earn money, we're borrowing money against our asset


Gas. How much do you spend on gas? I spend maybe $65 /wk. Before you worked for Uber, did you not also buy gas?

Insurance. I've had my auto insurance policy with USAA since before most of the posters here were born. Driving for Uber didn't change anything except $18 /mo for rideshare rider to cover my ass.

Registration. Was your car not registered before driving for Uber? How did you get it off the car lot?

Tires. How often do you buy tires? If you drive 40k miles a year, you're talking one set of tires, i.e. ~$400 /yr

Car Care. Unlimited car washes are $20 a month, $240 /year and is deductible. Didn't you wash your car before Uber?

Brakes. How often are you having your brakes redone? The key is maintaining them rather than having to fix everything because of neglect.

Oil Changes/filters. Included in vehicle purchase.

General wear/tear/depreciation. Before picking up my first pax I still drove the vehicle. Sure I put more wear and tear on it now, but I also receive money now to compensate for that wear. I never received pay to offset mileage before, and I never worried about depreciation. Nothing has changed.

Stop thinking of your business car as a depreciating asset, and instead view it for what it is... a deductible business tool.


----------



## transporter007

RedANT said:


> Gas. How much do you spend on gas? I spend maybe $65 /wk. Before you worked for Uber, did you not also buy gas?
> 
> Insurance. I've had my auto insurance policy with USAA since before most of the posters here were born. Driving for Uber didn't change anything except $18 /mo for rideshare rider to cover my ass.
> 
> Registration. Was your car not registered before driving for Uber? How did you get it off the car lot?
> 
> Tires. How often do you buy tires? If you drive 40k miles a year, you're talking one set of tires, i.e. ~$400 /yr
> 
> Car Care. Unlimited car washes are $20 a month, $240 /year and is deductible. Didn't you wash your car before Uber?
> 
> Brakes. How often are you having your brakes redone? The key is maintaining them rather than having to fix everything because of neglect.
> 
> Oil Changes/filters. Included in vehicle purchase.
> 
> General wear/tear/depreciation. Before picking up my first pax I still drove the vehicle. Sure I put more wear and tear on it now, but I also receive money now to compensate for that wear. I never received pay to offset mileage before, and I never worried about depreciation. Nothing has changed.
> 
> Stop thinking of your business car as a depreciating asset, and instead view it for what it is... a deductible business tool.


Great, now deduct those expenses from that gross hourly amount.
And then divide by 2


----------



## RedANT

Week to date:

Uber - $336
Lyft - $144
Cash Tips: $10
Total: $490

Hours worked: 12.5 hrs

$490/12.5=$39.20 /hr

- $20 /day for gas
-$0.90 cents a day for additional insurance
-$1.10 /day for tires.
-$1.00 day for cleaning.
-$5.00 /day for brakes/wear/tear

Lets subtract $28 /day for those expenses, which leaves me with $490 / 2 days = $245 /day. Subtract $28 for "expenses" and we're down to $217 for a 6.5 hr shift, or approx $33 /hr. 

Did I do that wrong? How would you figure it?


----------



## transporter007

RedANT said:


> Week to date:
> 
> Uber - $336
> Lyft - $144
> Cash Tips: $10
> Total: $490
> 
> Hours worked: 12.5 hrs
> 
> $490/12.5=$39.20 /hr
> 
> - $20 /day for gas
> -$0.90 cents a day for additional insurance
> -$1.10 /day for tires.
> -$1.00 day for cleaning.
> -$5.00 /day for brakes/wear/tear
> 
> Lets subtract $28 /day for those expenses, which leaves me with $490 / 2 days = $245 /day. Subtract $28 for "expenses" and we're down to $217 for a 6.5 hr shift, or approx $33 /hr.
> 
> Did I do that wrong? How would you figure it?


Email your report, name, address and phone to: [email protected]

According to a new recent study, Uber and Lyft drivers earn a median hourly profit of $8.55; study authors revised this figure on Monday from an earlier amount reported last week of $3.37 per hour.​
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...vers-median-hourly-wage-under-4-report-finds/


----------



## KenLV

RideGuy said:


> Uber does not take away from your earnings per mile. *What they charge the pax has nothing to do with your earnings.*


The hell it doesn't. It effects my tips - which constitute about 20% of my earnings each week.

What you could have said was: *What Uber charges the pax has nothing to do with what Uber pays drivers.*


----------



## bsliv

RedANT said:


> Gas. How much do you spend on gas? I spend maybe $65 /wk. Before you worked for Uber, did you not also buy gas?
> 
> Insurance. I've had my auto insurance policy with USAA since before most of the posters here were born. Driving for Uber didn't change anything except $18 /mo for rideshare rider to cover my ass.
> 
> Registration. Was your car not registered before driving for Uber? How did you get it off the car lot?
> 
> Tires. How often do you buy tires? If you drive 40k miles a year, you're talking one set of tires, i.e. ~$400 /yr
> 
> Car Care. Unlimited car washes are $20 a month, $240 /year and is deductible. Didn't you wash your car before Uber?
> 
> Brakes. How often are you having your brakes redone? The key is maintaining them rather than having to fix everything because of neglect.
> 
> Oil Changes/filters. Included in vehicle purchase.
> 
> General wear/tear/depreciation. Before picking up my first pax I still drove the vehicle. Sure I put more wear and tear on it now, but I also receive money now to compensate for that wear. I never received pay to offset mileage before, and I never worried about depreciation. Nothing has changed.
> 
> Stop thinking of your business car as a depreciating asset, and instead view it for what it is... a deductible business tool.


A deductible business tool, in this case, is a depreciating asset. The depreciation is often the most expensive cost to drive and should not be ignored. I agree that if you use your personal car, basic insurance and registration should not be included in your cost to drive. The cost to drive for Uber is close to but not the same as the cost to drive or the cost to own.



RedANT said:


> Did I do that wrong? How would you figure it?


Wrong is not the right word. Incomplete might be a better term.

I suggest to calculate your cost to drive on a per mile basis. Saying you pay $20 a day for gas is not too meaningful. If you say you pay $0.10 per mile for fuel, we (and you) would have a better understanding. A $50 oil change every 10,000 miles? That's $0.005 per mile. $400 tires every 40,000 miles? That's $0.01 per mile.

Look in your owner's manual for a list of maintenance items and their mileage. Then estimate the cost for each service. You now know your cost for maintenance.

Just because you prepaid for oil changes doesn't mean it isn't an expense to drive. It is an expense whether you prepay it, pay for it at the time of service, or put it on a credit card. Its an expense incurred due to driving.

Just because you haven't had to repair your vehicle doesn't mean you won't have to repair your vehicle. Transmissions go bad on the most reliable cars. Bumpers fall off. Cats get clogged. Blinker fluid drains. Muffler bearings seize. Etc. Estimating repair costs for your vehicle is very tough. Luckily, Edmunds has done it for us. Take advantage of their expertise.

Depreciation can also be difficult to calculate. Say your 2 year old car would have had 20,000 miles on it without Uber. But because of Uber, it has 100,000 miles and its condition rating dropped from good to fair. Kelly Blue Book has been in the business of calculating depreciation for a long time. Take advantage of their expertise. I entered these numbers on a 2015 Mazda3 and the extra 80,000 miles resulted in $0.068 per mile loss in value of this depreciating business tool.

If you didn't drive for Uber, would you have an unlimited car wash service? If yes, its not a cost to drive for Uber. If not, but you still washed your car every 3 months at $10 per wash, it would be $210 per year for car washes as an expense to drive for Uber. If you drive 40,000 miles for Uber during the year, car washes cost $0.005 per mile.

Rideshare insurance is another $0.005 per mile.

These numbers seem small, but add 'em up. If your costs to drive for Uber comes to $0.30 per mile, MIT calls you a median cost driver. The IRS calls you a cheapskate and you should drive a more expensive car. (_Note: its good to be cheap._)

If you bought the car specifically for Uber, add base insurance, registration, finance costs, etc. If you bought the car partly for Uber, add part of the base insurance, registration, finance costs, etc.

If you track your time, average miles per hour and hourly net and gross can be calculated. If you track your total mileage and Uber gives you paid miles, you can calculate your dead miles and their effect on your net.


----------



## parbs

LOl @ Redants calculations, is it no wonder uber drivers dont get how much they make.

I mean at uber rates, if he made 500 he would have to drive close to 250-350 miles in a day. like in NJ a drivers gets like .60 cents a mile and .18 cents min. Would need almost 300-400 miles to make 500. I would like to see screenshots of READNTS earnings and miles. also wondering what type of car he has.



RideGuy said:


> This is BS. I make a minimum of $150 per night minus $40 for gas. This normally happens in a 5 hour period-especially this time of year. When I drive, Uber loses money. You have to know how to play the game and run a profitable business. How to profit and receive the maximum legal write offs possible on your taxes.
> 
> The money is out there. It's all about timing and location.
> 
> Uber does not take away from your earnings per mile. What they charge the pax has nothing to do with your earnings.


So in 5 hours? you made 110 after gas? now calculate wear and tear, insurance, depreciation Because of those miles. How much do you think all that adds up to?


----------



## bsliv

$40 in gas at $3 per gallon is 13.3 gallons. At 20 miles per gallon is 266.7 miles. In 5 hours that's 53.3 miles per hour.


----------



## RedANT

parbs said:


> LOl @ Redants calculations, is it no wonder uber drivers dont get how much they make.
> 
> I mean at uber rates, if he made 500 he would have to drive close to 250-350 miles in a day. like in NJ a drivers gets like .60 cents a mile and .18 cents min. Would need almost 300-400 miles to make 500. I would like to see screenshots of READNTS earnings and miles. also wondering what type of car he has.












Base: $1.01
Distance: $1.01 /mile
Time: $0.18 /minute

I drove approx 400 miles. (Don't feel like going to the garage to get exact mileage from drive log)

SHE drives a Nissan Sentra that gets ~31/39 gas mileage. (29/36 advertised)


----------



## transporter007

RedANT said:


> Base: $1.01
> Distance: $1.01 /mile
> Time: $0.18 /minute


Sad


----------



## RedANT

transporter007 said:


> Sad


----------



## Jesusdrivesuber

Lol the people claiming they make money are either shill, SUV driver or absolutely deluded having failed math in middle school.

How on earth can anyone claim major gain when your per mile pay minus operating cost (54 cents by IRS standards, this includes maintenance/gas and value loss) PLUS deadmiles, pick up miles, my GOD people are you this dumb to do math? sure you can make 200 bucks a day in 8 hours after riding twice your mileage coming back to the airport to keep cherry picking, or the once in a blue moon surges you happened to grab but does it occur to you how many miles a day you put on your car? Track the miles and see your actual pay.


----------



## RedANT

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> Lol the people claiming they make money are either shill, SUV driver or absolutely deluded having failed math in middle school.
> 
> How on earth can anyone claim major gain when your per mile pay minus operating cost (54 cents by IRS standards, this includes maintenance/gas and value loss) PLUS deadmiles, pick up miles, my GOD people are you this dumb to do math? sure you can make 200 bucks a day in 8 hours after riding twice your mileage coming back to the airport to keep cherry picking, or the once in a blue moon surges you happened to grab but does it occur to you how many miles a day you put on your car? Track the miles and see your actual pay.


So anyone who doesn't scrutinize bullshit earnings is now a shill? WTF?

If you're not satisfied with what you're making, DON'T DRIVE. I don't drive because I need to, I do it to get out of the house and for social interaction. (post retirement) Uber only makes up ~10% of my total income, so I don't stress about vehicle depreciation or maximizing mileage deductions. It just works for me. Why are you so pissed about that?


----------



## Jesusdrivesuber

RedANT said:


> So anyone who doesn't scrutinize bullshit earnings is now a shill? WTF?
> 
> If you're not satisfied with what you're making, DON'T DRIVE. I don't drive because I need to, I do it to get out of the house and for social interaction. (post retirement) Uber only makes up ~10% of my total income, so I don't stress about vehicle depreciation or maximizing mileage deductions. It just works for me. Why are you so pissed about that?


Bullshit earnings?

You are closer to those earnings than the math (you so fail to understand) and keep doing.

You drive for social interaction? LOL, bro, go play bingo or something with the rest of the people your age instead.

So because I'm not satisfied with what I am making I should let you speak all sorts of misleading nonsense for other drivers allowing them to think they are banking the big bucks?

No, you DO NOT MAKE MONEY, you drive as a hobby? Okay, as laughable as that is, keep off posting misleading posts saying you earn well, I already asked you which of the 3 categories fits, if you are neither a shill (though the beginning of your response is 90% of what shills say here) and you do not drive an SUV, you fit the 3rd category.

Stop misleading people.


----------



## Taxi2Uber

bsliv said:


> The article implies that costs are 51% of earnings (to make $0.59 will cost you $0.30). So that $9 gross is only $4.41 net.
> 
> MIT states their sources for the cost data as Edmunds, Kelly Blue Book, and the EPA. I imagine they got mileage rates from the EPA. KBB has been in the depreciation business a long time. They're probably the best source for that data. Edmunds publishes a True Cost to Own which has valuable data for maintenance and expected repair costs.
> 
> All this data is available for free to everyone. My 2015 Mazda3 costs $0.28 per mile to run. My 1999 Chevy Blazer costs about the same per mile (no depreciation but high expected repair costs and low mpg).


How are you getting the TCO of your 1999 Blazer? Edmunds is only allowing me to go back to 2012 year cars.


----------



## RedANT

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> You drive for social interaction? LOL, bro, go play bingo or something with the rest of the people your age instead.
> 
> So because I'm not satisfied with what I am making I should let you speak all sorts of misleading nonsense for other drivers allowing them to think they are banking the big bucks?
> 
> No, you DO NOT MAKE MONEY, you drive as a hobby? Okay, as laughable as that is, keep off posting misleading posts saying you earn well, I already asked you which of the 3 categories fits, if you are neither a shill (though the beginning of your response is 90% of what shills say here) and you do not drive an SUV, you fit the 3rd category.
> 
> Stop misleading people.


Who the hell are you to tell me how I should spend my free time? Is driving part time for a couple hundred buck a week really that bad? If so, I ask again, why are YOU doing it? Is your husband dead too? Are your kids, grandkids and great grandbabies all living elsewhere and you think that staring at four walls is going to prolong your life? Getting out helps, and getting out while making extra money isn't a horrible damn idea.

As far as your "my god people are you this dumb at math" statement, I'd say to hell with your mathematical equations and formulas. Don't do it because statistically you'll make a .2 cents per mile more, do it because you don't give a shit about those two cents you're saving, and you look at the end product rather than the math.

What pisses me off most about your post is that you feel qualified to critique my earnings since you're unhappy with yours, and you attack me for posting real numbers rather than bullshit statistics from a bunch of nerds who have zero/little actual experience in this field. You're simply looking for validation to justify the pity party you're throwing, and you're pissed because I'm not having it. Posting numbers isn't misleading people, it's empowering them to do the math themselves and make their own damn decisions.


----------



## Nonya busy

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> Lol the people claiming they make money are either shill, SUV driver or absolutely deluded having failed math in middle school.
> 
> How on earth can anyone claim major gain when your per mile pay minus operating cost (54 cents by IRS standards, this includes maintenance/gas and value loss) PLUS deadmiles, pick up miles, my GOD people are you this dumb to do math? sure you can make 200 bucks a day in 8 hours after riding twice your mileage coming back to the airport to keep cherry picking, or the once in a blue moon surges you happened to grab but does it occur to you how many miles a day you put on your car? Track the miles and see your actual pay.


Yes, i know thats b.s.


----------



## Jesusdrivesuber

RedANT said:


> Who the hell are you to tell me how I should spend my free time? Is driving part time for a couple hundred buck a week really that bad? If so, I ask again, why are YOU doing it? Is your husband dead too? Are your kids, grandkids and great grandbabies all living elsewhere and you think that staring at four walls is going to prolong your life? Getting out helps, and getting out while making extra money isn't a horrible damn idea.
> 
> As far as your "my god people are you this dumb at math" statement, I'd say to hell with your mathematical equations and formulas. Don't do it because statistically you'll make a .2 cents per mile more, do it because you don't give a shit about those two cents you're saving, and you look at the end product rather than the math.
> 
> What pisses me off most about your post is that you feel qualified to critique my earnings since you're unhappy with yours, and you attack me for posting real numbers rather than bullshit statistics from a bunch of nerds who have zero/little actual experience in this field. You're simply looking for validation to justify the pity party you're throwing, and you're pissed because I'm not having it. Posting numbers isn't misleading people, it's empowering them to do the math themselves and make their own damn decisions.


Gotcha, you are in it for the thrills and uber as a hobby, ROFL.

Your idea of "being paid" is what I would expect from any other ignorant person who isn't taking into account his losses and simply guides him/herself by the numbers seen on the first paper, do you want to ***** your car value for Uber while being paid less than 4 dollars an hour? Be my damn guest, at least SAY SO when you post here and stop misleading people with your big bucks earnings, no, your earnings are absolute trash compared to drivers like me who game the system, I don't need to post how much more I can make because I don't play by the rules of the system and suffer larger losses than you, all I can do I ***** my car faster than you, I can still mislead you but what will that gain me? Another ignorant **** getting the idea this pays so he can pass the word around and invite more people in desperate need for work to slave for a corporation on it's way to bankruptcy?

There is no "bullshit statistics", it's ****ing math you learn in second grade, I guess at your old age you must have forgotten what second grade felt like.

Your numbers:

Miles per day.
Miles worked and paid.
The pay per mile.
Operation cost (54 cents).
DEADMILES/Pickup miles.

Do second grade math with those values and see what you are getting paid:

Your Gain:

Miles worked at your state's rate MINUS Operating cost, so if you are being paid 80 cents a mile ( to round 72 cents plus time), you are actually making EACH mile 26 cents and this is provided you have ZERO pick up miles and deadmiles, if by tracking your whole day's mileage you come to the conclusion you got paid for 300 out of the 400 you drove, then 100 are deadmiles, Einstein, and that is represented as loss for you. which means -54 cents for each of those miles.

To summarize and pray you understand what you are doing:

26 cents IF you worked the mile and -54 cents if you didnt.

Now, for the second time, How much are you being paid?

The only thing that changes the outcome of your earnings is surge, not your driving habits or your tricks, stop trying to tell people being a better driver will raise their pay, the pay never changes, only the hourly rate does, you still lose the same money.


----------



## Kodyhead

RedANT said:


> Who the hell are you to tell me how I should spend my free time? Is driving part time for a couple hundred buck a week really that bad? If so, I ask again, why are YOU doing it? Is your husband dead too? Are your kids, grandkids and great grandbabies all living elsewhere and you think that staring at four walls is going to prolong your life? Getting out helps, and getting out while making extra money isn't a horrible damn idea.
> 
> As far as your "my god people are you this dumb at math" statement, I'd say to hell with your mathematical equations and formulas. Don't do it because statistically you'll make a .2 cents per mile more, do it because you don't give a shit about those two cents you're saving, and you look at the end product rather than the math.
> 
> What pisses me off most about your post is that you feel qualified to critique my earnings since you're unhappy with yours, and you attack me for posting real numbers rather than bullshit statistics from a bunch of nerds who have zero/little actual experience in this field. You're simply looking for validation to justify the pity party you're throwing, and you're pissed because I'm not having it. Posting numbers isn't misleading people, it's empowering them to do the math themselves and make their own damn decisions.


Not just you and this is for all drivers making claims right now against the study and thanks for sharing your numbers but i don't know why you need to feel the need to defend your own performance when all the article says about half the drivers make less than min wage. I don't think that is that far off or way out of line.

You should put yourself in the half that makes more than min wage. No where in the research before and after the recalculated numbers does it say ALL UBER DRIVERS MAKE LESS THAN MIN WAGE.


----------



## Nonya busy

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> Gotcha, you are in it for the thrills and uber as a hobby, ROFL.
> 
> Your idea of "being paid" is what I would expect from any other ignorant person who isn't taking into account his losses and simply guides him/herself by the numbers seen on the first paper, do you want to ***** your car value for Uber while being paid less than 4 dollars an hour? Be my damn guest, at least SAY SO when you post here and stop misleading people with your big bucks earnings, no, your earnings are absolute trash compared to drivers like me who game the system, I don't need to post how much more I can make because I don't play by the rules of the system and suffer larger losses than you, all I can do I ***** my car faster than you, I can still mislead you but what will that gain me? Another ignorant &%[email protected]!* getting the idea this pays so he can pass the word around and invite more people in desperate need for work to slave for a corporation on it's way to bankruptcy?
> 
> There is no "bullshit statistics", it's &%[email protected]!*ing math you learn in second grade, I guess at your old age you must have forgotten what second grade felt like.
> 
> Your numbers:
> 
> Miles per day.
> Miles worked and paid.
> The pay per mile.
> Operation cost (54 cents).
> DEADMILES/Pickup miles.
> 
> Do second grade math with those values and see what you are getting paid:
> 
> Your Gain:
> 
> Miles worked at your state's rate MINUS Operating cost, so if you are being paid 80 cents a mile ( to round 72 cents plus time), you are actually making EACH mile 26 cents and this is provided you have ZERO pick up miles and deadmiles, if by tracking your whole day's mileage you come to the conclusion you got paid for 300 out of the 400 you drove, then 100 are deadmiles, Einstein, and that is represented as loss for you. which means -54 cents for each of those miles.
> 
> To summarize and pray you understand what you are doing:
> 
> 26 cents IF you worked the mile and -54 cents if you didnt.
> 
> Now, for the second time, How much are you being paid?
> 
> The only thing that changes the outcome of your earnings is surge, not your driving habits or your tricks, stop trying to tell people being a better driver will raise their pay, the pay never changes, only the hourly rate does, you still lose the same money.


Can't believe this is actually a debate. Have to be "uberlyft undercovers" saying the pay isn't absolutely terrible.

Who would actually do this unless they're desperate?


----------



## RedANT

Nonya busy said:


> Can't believe this is actually a debate. Have to be "uberlyft undercovers" saying the pay isn't absolutely terrible.
> 
> Who would actually do this unless they're desperate?


Don't like the pay? Don't drive, or drive somewhere that pays better than your market. If you refuse to do so, that's YOUR problem.



Kodyhead said:


> Not just you and this is for all drivers making claims right now against the study and thanks for sharing your numbers but i don't know why you need to feel the need to defend your own performance when all the article says about half the drivers make less than min wage. I don't think that is that far off or way out of line.
> 
> You should put yourself in the half that makes more than min wage. No where in the research before and after the recalculated numbers does it say ALL UBER DRIVERS MAKE LESS THAN MIN WAGE.


Why put myself in the half that makes shit wages? That would be misleading.

Admit it, people only want to hear the stories that support their pity party, and they ruthlessly attack anyone not willing to toe the line and lie for them. Had people simply accepted that some people may be making something acceptable there would be no problem, but when people call me a dumbass, insult me and call me a fool, liar, shill and undercover uber employee, it just adds to my resolve to piss them off.



Jesusdrivesuber said:


> Gotcha, you are in it for the thrills and uber as a hobby, ROFL.
> 
> Your idea of "being paid" is what I would expect from any other ignorant person who isn't taking into account his losses and simply guides him/herself by the numbers seen on the first paper, do you want to ***** your car value for Uber while being paid less than 4 dollars an hour? Be my damn guest, at least SAY SO when you post here and stop misleading people with your big bucks earnings, no, your earnings are absolute trash compared to drivers like me who game the system, I don't need to post how much more I can make because I don't play by the rules of the system and suffer larger losses than you, all I can do I ***** my car faster than you, I can still mislead you but what will that gain me? Another ignorant &%[email protected]!* getting the idea this pays so he can pass the word around and invite more people in desperate need for work to slave for a corporation on it's way to bankruptcy?
> 
> There is no "bullshit statistics", it's &%[email protected]!*ing math you learn in second grade, I guess at your old age you must have forgotten what second grade felt like.
> 
> Your numbers:
> 
> Miles per day.
> Miles worked and paid.
> The pay per mile.
> Operation cost (54 cents).
> DEADMILES/Pickup miles.
> 
> Do second grade math with those values and see what you are getting paid:
> 
> Your Gain:
> 
> Miles worked at your state's rate MINUS Operating cost, so if you are being paid 80 cents a mile ( to round 72 cents plus time), you are actually making EACH mile 26 cents and this is provided you have ZERO pick up miles and deadmiles, if by tracking your whole day's mileage you come to the conclusion you got paid for 300 out of the 400 you drove, then 100 are deadmiles, Einstein, and that is represented as loss for you. which means -54 cents for each of those miles.
> 
> To summarize and pray you understand what you are doing:
> 
> 26 cents IF you worked the mile and -54 cents if you didnt.
> 
> Now, for the second time, How much are you being paid?
> 
> The only thing that changes the outcome of your earnings is surge, not your driving habits or your tricks, stop trying to tell people being a better driver will raise their pay, the pay never changes, only the hourly rate does, you still lose the same money.


Go ahead. Call me ignorant and ROFL. That just makes you sound like an asshole.

It's great you worry about the value of your bullshit work car, but it's exactly that, a work tool that can be written off and eventually replaced when I'm done with it. It's not like my personal vehicles that I choose not to depreciate through rideshare driving.

FWIW, posting screenies isn't "lying" or "misleading," it's presenting facts that you can't dispute so you attack me instead.

Don't like the stats I posted? Tough shit. It doesn't matter anymore,, since I'm adding you to ignore and won't waste any more of my time on your bullshit insults.


----------



## Nonya busy

RedANT said:


> Don't like the pay? Don't drive, or drive somewhere that pays better than your market. If you refuse to do so, that's YOUR problem.
> 
> Why put myself in the half that makes shit wages? That would be misleading.
> 
> Admit it, people only want to hear the stories that support their pity party, and they ruthlessly attack anyone not willing to toe the line and lie for them. Had people simply accepted that some people may be making something acceptable there would be no problem, but when people call me a dumbass, insult me and call me a fool, liar, shill and undercover uber employee, it just adds to my resolve to piss them off.
> 
> Go ahead. Call me ignorant and ROFL. That just makes you sound like an asshole.
> 
> It's great you worry about the value of your bullshit work car, but it's exactly that, a work tool that can be written off and eventually replaced when I'm done with it. It's not like my personal vehicles that I choose not to depreciate through rideshare driving.
> 
> FWIW, posting screenies isn't "lying" or "misleading," it's presenting facts that you can't dispute so you attack me instead.
> 
> Don't like the stats I posted? Tough shit. It doesn't matter anymore,, since I'm adding you to ignore and won't waste any more of my time on your bullshit insults.


Ok, thanks for the words of wisdom. 

https://www.dollargeneral.com/media...70ab036de70892d86c6d221abfe/0/0/00689902.jpeg


----------



## RedANT

Nonya busy said:


> Ok, thanks for the words of wisdom.
> 
> https://www.dollargeneral.com/media...70ab036de70892d86c6d221abfe/0/0/00689902.jpeg


Not needed after menopause. Try again.

**********************************
**********************************

Also, just curious why when I discuss someone's dick, the post is deleted by moderation, but when someone posts about women's periods and imply that I'm a *****, nothing ever gets done?

*Happy International Women's Day*


----------



## Jesusdrivesuber

RedANT said:


> Don't like the pay? Don't drive, or drive somewhere that pays better than your market. If you refuse to do so, that's YOUR problem.
> 
> Why put myself in the half that makes shit wages? That would be misleading.
> 
> Admit it, people only want to hear the stories that support their pity party, and they ruthlessly attack anyone not willing to toe the line and lie for them. Had people simply accepted that some people may be making something acceptable there would be no problem, but when people call me a dumbass, insult me and call me a fool, liar, shill and undercover uber employee, it just adds to my resolve to piss them off.
> 
> Go ahead. Call me ignorant and ROFL. That just makes you sound like an asshole.
> 
> It's great you worry about the value of your bullshit work car, but it's exactly that, a work tool that can be written off and eventually replaced when I'm done with it. It's not like my personal vehicles that I choose not to depreciate through rideshare driving.
> 
> FWIW, posting screenies isn't "lying" or "misleading," it's presenting facts that you can't dispute so you attack me instead.
> 
> Don't like the stats I posted? Tough shit. It doesn't matter anymore,, since I'm adding you to ignore and won't waste any more of my time on your bullshit insults.


LOL, this is the first car you'll break for Uber, so you are a newb.

When the time comes to put old yeller out, you'll understand how you are "losing" money, until that day comes I'm better off speaking to a wall.

Your screenshots are misleading because you are showing EARNINGS not your full operational cost, genius.


----------



## Seattle_Wayne

Kodyhead said:


> Not just you and this is for all drivers making claims right now against the study and thanks for sharing your numbers but i don't know why you need to feel the need to defend your own performance when all the article says about half the drivers make less than min wage. I don't think that is that far off or way out of line.
> 
> You should put yourself in the half that makes more than min wage. No where in the research before and after the recalculated numbers does it say ALL UBER DRIVERS MAKE LESS THAN MIN WAGE.


Wasn't it 30% of the drivers in the Uber market make $3.37/hr?


----------



## Kodyhead

Seattle_Wayne said:


> Wasn't it 30% of the drivers in the Uber market make $3.37/hr?


I thought they came out with new numbers didn't they? It was closer to $8/he I thought


----------



## bsliv

RedANT said:


> out of the house (post retirement)


That's a demographic that driving rideshare makes sense.

I believe $336.54 in 12.5 hours and 22 trips in Seattle is possible. 400 miles may be a high estimate, based on typical city driving speeds. That's a gross of $26.92 /hr. Unless the car is very new, the cost per mile is probably around $0.30 /mile. That makes the net $17.32 /hr.

In Las Vegas, 2 rides an hour is not easy, unless they're minimums from one casino to the next. The rates are about 70% of Seattle's. So the same driving in Las Vegas would gross $235.58 and with the same costs brings the net to $9.25 /hr. That is on the high side for Las Vegas but not unbelievable. Then consider the median price of a house in Seattle is $700,000 and in Las Vegas its $240,000. We might not be so bad off.


----------



## BigBadDaddyDriver

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> Gotcha, you are in it for the thrills and uber as a hobby, ROFL.
> 
> Your idea of "being paid" is what I would expect from any other ignorant person who isn't taking into account his losses and simply guides him/herself by the numbers seen on the first paper, do you want to ***** your car value for Uber while being paid less than 4 dollars an hour? Be my damn guest, at least SAY SO when you post here and stop misleading people with your big bucks earnings, no, your earnings are absolute trash compared to drivers like me who game the system, I don't need to post how much more I can make because I don't play by the rules of the system and suffer larger losses than you, all I can do I ***** my car faster than you, I can still mislead you but what will that gain me? Another ignorant &%[email protected]!* getting the idea this pays so he can pass the word around and invite more people in desperate need for work to slave for a corporation on it's way to bankruptcy?
> 
> There is no "bullshit statistics", it's &%[email protected]!*ing math you learn in second grade, I guess at your old age you must have forgotten what second grade felt like.
> 
> Your numbers:
> 
> Miles per day.
> Miles worked and paid.
> The pay per mile.
> Operation cost (54 cents).
> DEADMILES/Pickup miles.
> 
> Do second grade math with those values and see what you are getting paid:
> 
> Your Gain:
> 
> Miles worked at your state's rate MINUS Operating cost, so if you are being paid 80 cents a mile ( to round 72 cents plus time), you are actually making EACH mile 26 cents and this is provided you have ZERO pick up miles and deadmiles, if by tracking your whole day's mileage you come to the conclusion you got paid for 300 out of the 400 you drove, then 100 are deadmiles, Einstein, and that is represented as loss for you. which means -54 cents for each of those miles.
> 
> To summarize and pray you understand what you are doing:
> 
> 26 cents IF you worked the mile and -54 cents if you didnt.
> 
> Now, for the second time, How much are you being paid?
> 
> The only thing that changes the outcome of your earnings is surge, not your driving habits or your tricks, stop trying to tell people being a better driver will raise their pay, the pay never changes, only the hourly rate does, you still lose the same money.


Ahem.... she *gave *ALL the numbers required. YOU are the one coming across as the asshole who can neither do second grade math OR read at a second grade level... Here let's put it all in a nice little box so it is easy for you to read:



Code:


Total revenue:              Uber ($336), Lyft($144) = approx $480
                            $480
Total miles:                400 (She said this was from odometer log, not the apps,
                            so I am assuming it is all miles, including deadhead)
$/mile revenue:             $1.2
Operation cost (per mile):  $.54 is the number you use, AAA says more like $.60
                            $.60
$/mile profit:              I know, I know subtraction is difficult...
                            $.60
Total profit:               $240
Total Time:                 I don't see that she said exactly, but her lyft screen shot says about 13 hours.
                            If she drives like most do both apps are on the entire time, but lets round up
                            to 15 hrs just for fun
                            15 hrs
Profit $/Hr                 $16

Last I check 16 bucks and hour is better than minimum wage... Better than a lot of new grads out of college too... If we use 13 hrs and .54 cents cost per mile the profit per hours quickly eclipses $20.

I get it, some folks are very upset about what Uber pays. And I agree that Uber, especially in certain regions, needs to pay vastly more. But painting everyone with the same wide brush is silly and wrong AND THAT is what is misleading.

Complain and yell and scream and deluge Uber with angry emails, letters and phone calls, but attacking one of your fellow drivers in an incredibly rude, and then WRONG manner is shitty and over the line.

Edit: Sorry, read her screen shot wrong the first time, numbers are updated above


----------



## tcaud

Uber's plan is to jettison the drivers entirely. Still thinking big, like flying cars between skyscrapers. 25,000 SMART cars going out in the next 18 months (and that's just them, at least 4 other companies also have plans). Are you people defending Uber seriously gonna defend them all the way to the homeless shelter?


----------



## 1.5xorbust

tcaud said:


> Uber's plan is to jettison the drivers entirely. Still thinking big, like flying cars between skyscrapers. 25,000 SMART cars going out in the next 18 months (and that's just them, at least 4 other companies also have plans). Are you people defending Uber seriously gonna defend them all the way to the homeless shelter?


I plan to have a job working at Uber Corporate by that time.


----------



## Nonya busy

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> LOL, this is the first car you'll break for Uber, so you are a newb.
> 
> When the time comes to put old yeller out, you'll understand how you are "losing" money, until that day comes I'm better off speaking to a wall.
> 
> Your screenshots are misleading because you are showing EARNINGS not your full operational cost, genius.


I noticed ubers been excessively turning off the Uber app in the background while drivers wait on a ping.

This makes your hourly rate look higher because it's not calculating 100% of the time you're waiting.

Often you are offline waiting on a ping.

It's seems to be getting worse since drivers are complaining more and more about low hourly wages.
*
I'm sure that wasn't included in the MIT Study. *


----------



## Yam Digger

transporter007 said:


> You sir, are a scholar thinking outside the box.
> Seriously, as u stated, an argument can be made that the government is supplementing cheap rides.
> They may not realize it, it may not of been the original plan, but they kinda are.


Corporate Welfare at its finest.


----------



## BigBadDaddyDriver

tcaud said:


> Uber's plan is to jettison the drivers entirely. Still thinking big, like flying cars between skyscrapers. 25,000 SMART cars going out in the next 18 months (and that's just them, at least 4 other companies also have plans). Are you people defending Uber seriously gonna defend them all the way to the homeless shelter?


If driving for Uber has taught me anything it's that truly driverless, autonomous vehicles whisking riders place to place with the rider app being the only interface is a decade away at MINIMUM, and most likely a utopian dream that we have all somehow been deluded into believing will become a reality which will never be fully realized.

Sure, my car will do a bulk of the driving for me, especially highway, now and in the next couple years, but like an airplane needs a pilot even though it mostly flies itself I am not convinced we will ever truly get rid of drivers. And I am talking purely from a technological point of view. Not to mention the exponential complexity that real human riders add to the mix.

I am not defending Uber, I was mostly just defending RedANT, but don't bring you sloppy non sequitur, reductio absurdum logic. Homelessness is a serious problem, one that Uber is doing nothing to quell now, and one that Uber going under won't make worse.

BTW, the people "defending" uber have offered real live ride/and money examples of their revenues and such, but so far we have only seen anecdotes and hypotheticals from those claiming to make below minimum wage or actually losing money. Anyone care to share an earnings screen shot showing $3/hr so that us baddies can get a better visceral feel for how bad the problem really is? I am not being disingenuous, show me how wrong I am!

I believe it! The rates in some places like Orlando are really bad, but a screen shot will make it feel more real.



Nonya busy said:


> I noticed ubers been excessively turning off the Uber app in the background while drivers wait on a ping.
> 
> This makes your hourly rate look higher because it's not calculating 100% of the time you're waiting.
> 
> Often you are offline waiting on a ping.
> 
> It's seems to be getting worse since drivers are complaining more and more about low hourly wages.
> *
> I'm sure that wasn't included in the MIT Study. *


It definitely feels like Uber has the "Total Time" wrong while I am driving, but I track all my miles and time outside of the app as well, and by the time I go offline the app is the same as my own metric. I haven't seen the code of course, but my assumption is they are using the the last ride as the end time to calc time driving instead of the current time.

I have only seen Uber turn itself offline when I have several lyfts in a row and the uber app has been sitting in background for a while, which is exactly how the uber app claims to work. I use android though so I probably get more background time that if you are using iPhone. IOS is constantly wanting to close your background apps.


----------



## Jesusdrivesuber

BigBadDaddyDriver said:


> Ahem.... she *gave *ALL the numbers required. YOU are the one coming across as the asshole who can neither do second grade math OR read at a second grade level... Here let's put it all in a nice little box so it is easy for you to read:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Total revenue:              Uber ($336), Lyft($144) = approx $480
> $480
> Total miles:                400 (She said this was from odometer log, not the apps,
> so I am assuming it is all miles, including deadhead)
> $/mile revenue:             $1.2
> Operation cost (per mile):  $.54 is the number you use, AAA says more like $.60
> $.60
> $/mile profit:              I know, I know subtraction is difficult...
> $.60
> Total profit:               $240
> Total Time:                 I don't see that she said exactly, but her lyft screen shot says about 13 hours.
> If she drives like most do both apps are on the entire time, but lets round up
> to 15 hrs just for fun
> 15 hrs
> Profit $/Hr                 $16
> 
> Last I check 16 bucks and hour is better than minimum wage... Better than a lot of new grads out of college too... If we use 13 hrs and .54 cents cost per mile the profit per hours quickly eclipses $20.
> 
> I get it, some folks are very upset about what Uber pays. And I agree that Uber, especially in certain regions, needs to pay vastly more. But painting everyone with the same wide brush is silly and wrong AND THAT is what is misleading.
> 
> Complain and yell and scream and deluge Uber with angry emails, letters and phone calls, but attacking one of your fellow drivers in an incredibly rude, and then WRONG manner is shitty and over the line.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, read her screen shot wrong the first time, numbers are updated above


Please stop defending idiocy by adding more idiocy.

Fine, let's play catch the lie.

For simplicity's sake, looking at the Lyft SS, she made $144 and drove ~100 miles, no? Okay, since we know uber pays the same (I'm even considering tips and surge in this for the sake of Lolz), by her making 336 bucks, she must have driven ~233 miles, no? Okay.

You have ~333 miles worked and you say she made... $480, NP, ~333 miles is 220 dollars of actual profit at 66 cents a mile (using .54, trust me I don't need higher numbers), but wait, you are gonna love my nuts and this is where you and her come off as liars:

If she drove 400 miles and got paid for 333, how many miles did she use for pick up and LOL, do we even start mentioning deadmiles? The average trip requires 1.5 miles to pick up which will be about 45 miles (~30 trips), see... now we are in a tight spot because you are an inch from 400, why don't you ask the average driver here how many dead miles they put in 333 paid miles by uber, whats more outstanding is the time she took to make that much money, that requires fishing hole jumping, let's also assume she was dropped home each day of work, no drive back.

Look, brah, I'll just throw you a guestimate number of deadmiles to finish this post, that number is gonna be 100, know why? because she talked about being "smartz draibur", which means she travels to pick the good trips, I am being extremely generous by giving you 45 pick up miles and 55 dead miles, ok final numbers since we will probably be refusing to post odometers:

220 dollars minus 54 dollars makes 166 bucks (assuming it's indeed 15 hours of work, note lyft doesn't count the clock on destination mode) which makes 11 bucks an hour in one of the highest paid markets in the US of A, isn't you minimum wage 15 bucks an hour?

Guess what, MIT was right.












Nonya busy said:


> I noticed ubers been excessively turning off the Uber app in the background while drivers wait on a ping.
> 
> This makes your hourly rate look higher because it's not calculating 100% of the time you're waiting.
> 
> Often you are offline waiting on a ping.
> 
> It's seems to be getting worse since drivers are complaining more and more about low hourly wages.
> *
> I'm sure that wasn't included in the MIT Study. *


Correct and Lyft does the same.


----------



## tohunt4me

TIME TO RAISE RATES !


----------



## Kodyhead

As a suxluv driver I've had days making not only less than min wage less than $3/hr lol


----------



## phillipzx3

getawaycar said:


> It's sad when workers at Walmart and McDonalds are making more than you.


That's because they do "ridesharing" part time. That's were the money is. ;-) You people who've tried to earn a living "sharing your ride" should have known better.


----------



## Seattle_Wayne

Kodyhead said:


> I thought they came out with new numbers didn't they? It was closer to $8/he I thought


Oh. Maybe. I'm not sure.

Those numbers are better, though. I can't really say I'm not surprised Uber drivers make around minimum wage.



phillipzx3 said:


> That's because they do "ridesharing" part time. That's were the money is. ;-) You people who've tried to earn a living "sharing your ride" should have known better.


And to add, doing this gig full-time will destroy your vehicle very quickly.

The wear and tear imposed on doing short trips all day in the big city is ridiculous. Just look at some of the cab cars that have been around for a couple of years. They're pretty beat up.


----------



## majxl

Uber, Lyft and other realities:

Make minimum wages, maybe a little more or a little less but not still not enough to survive in NY.
No health care insurance.
No contribution to SS.
No contribution to medicare.
No contibution for unemployment benefits.
No paid vacation .
No paid time off for child birth
No paid sick day.
No paid Holiday.
No extra pay for holiday work.
No paid overtime.
No raise in rate.
No retirement plan.
No opportunity for job advancement.

BUT, you are your own boss.... and I will never work for a boss like you!


----------



## 1.5xorbust

majxl said:


> Uber, Lyft and other realities:
> 
> Make minimum wages, maybe a little more or a little less but not still not enough to survive in NY.
> No health care insurance.
> No contribution to SS.
> No contribution to medicare.
> No contibution for unemployment benefits.
> No paid vacation .
> No paid time off for child birth
> No paid sick day.
> No paid Holiday.
> No extra pay for holiday work.
> No paid overtime.
> No raise in rate.
> No retirement plan.
> No opportunity for job advancement.
> 
> BUT, you are your own boss.... and I will never work for a boss like you!


No fund for car maintenance.


----------



## Kodyhead

Seattle_Wayne said:


> Oh. Maybe. I'm not sure.
> 
> Those numbers are better, though. I can't really say I'm not surprised Uber drivers make around minimum wage.
> 
> And to add, doing this gig full-time will destroy your vehicle very quickly.
> 
> The wear and tear imposed on doing short trips all day in the big city is ridiculous. Just look at some of the cab cars that have been around for a couple of years. They're pretty beat up.


Its a lot closer to the truth than being wrong was my point



Seattle_Wayne said:


> Wasn't it 30% of the drivers in the Uber market make $3.37/hr?


The update results from Mit Romney lol

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lenshe...r-through-public-relations-hell/#77fb3bb015f2


----------



## getawaycar

Dead miles and waiting times bring your per hour earnings way down. Which is why Uber and Lyft prefer not to take those things into account. On top of that you have fuel costs, depreciation, costs of commercial insurance and maintenance. After all that you would be lucky to break even.


----------



## melusine3

BigBadDaddyDriver said:


> Hahahaha, 90k a year, Uber you silly *****....
> 
> Yeah they should and did get slapped on the wrist for that BS advertising. Uber might be able to make a profit if it could stop shooting itself in teh foot with idiotic lawsuits... Did we ever find out how much Uber had to pay Waymo to go away?
> 
> I am not in those markets, and never saw those ads, seems like now they market themselves as more of a side hustle, not full time.
> 
> However if if I did want to be full time it would be on me to maximize my $/hr with smart driving, I am not sure how Uber can really control that... However if I was to make one big change to uber driver payments it wouldn't actually be to the rate per mile... it would be the _*rate per minute. *_10-20 cents is just dumb. Idling my car takes more money than that... It should be at least 50 cents a minute in all regions.
> 
> Funny coincidence happened last night and it leads me to an honest question... my wife is an hourly worker at the hospital here in town. Last night was a particularly slow night and half the staff got sent home half way through the shift. She works 12 hour shifts and makes $12 and hour. Since she got sent home year she made $12 an hour for 6 hours and $0 dollars an hour for another 6 hours. In your guys' minds does that now mean that she actually makes $6 dollars an hour for that shift? I mean she did reserve those 6 hours she was sent home as work time...
> 
> The corollary would be if I go out for 4 hours driving, 2 are hopping and I make $40 2 are dead and I make $0... Did I make $20 per hour for that shift? Did I make $10 per hour for that shift? My favorite part of doing Uber is I AM THE MANAGER! If it is slow I can send myself home to drink bourbon and watch Netflix!
> 
> Regardless of how you want to count you expenses and depreciation, etc. One question that needs to be asked in future studies is how well do you manage your time driving, how many minutes/hours do you spend just waiting?


#Shutupyourenew.



KenLV said:


> If you have the Uber app in the background for 8 minutes it asks if you want to go offline? If you don't click "stay online" it times out.
> 
> I use destination mode nightly and it gives me the "timed out" message (for being close to my destination) less than a quarter mile from my home.
> 
> Not only have they done so, they actually used it (drivers choosing to NOT drive full time) as a defense as to why drivers weren't making the income Uber said they could (as a full time job):
> 
> https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/19/uber-settlement-20-million-drivers-earnings/


Set your destination filter for a half mile further than your home base. There, fixed it for ya!



Jesusdrivesuber said:


> Markets like NY, San Fran, Seattle etc need to be excluded from the study, the mile pay is a definite 80 cents (adding time) in most parts of the country, factor in 54 cents depreciation and (dead miles, dead time), you got yourself an MIT study.
> 
> Why factor dead miles and depreciation? Because while doing work you are earning 26 cents a mile and while driving empty you are -54 cents every mile you drive.
> 
> Say you drove a total of 100 miles a day in profit which would be 26 bucks in 8 hours, to reach 40 hours as a normal laborer you now have 130 dollars profit weekly, this for the month makes about 520 bucks.
> 
> I would say MIT is far exceeding the actual estimates, the again, surges and non deadmile drivers probably boost those numbers.


They definitely should have differentiated the areas where per mile/minute is much higher and those areas tend to have lower mileage as rides are concentrated within those areas. They should also separate new drivers, who I believe get more premium rides (and surges - seriously I know a driver who was asked by a new driver a question about the app and she had surge and he didn't); and then the bulk of drivers who make 60 cents or less per mile. Then get back to me. Some of you drivers who do the larger cities can be so judgmental, it's really annoying.


----------



## Nonya busy

melusine3 said:


> #Shutupyourenew.
> 
> Set your destination filter for a half mile further than your home base. There, fixed it for ya!
> 
> They definitely should have differentiated the areas where per mile/minute is much higher and those areas tend to have lower mileage as rides are concentrated within those areas. They should also separate new drivers, who I believe get more premium rides (and surges - seriously I know a driver who was asked by a new driver a question about the app and she had surge and he didn't); and then the bulk of drivers who make 60 cents or less per mile. Then get back to me. Some of you drivers who do the larger cities can be so judgmental, it's really annoying.


The uber app has been going off in the background without warning lately. It did this twice in 1 hour today.

I know they're doing this to make hourly pay look better because they are not calculating all of the hours you spend waiting.


----------



## melusine3

at-007smartLP said:


> illegal terms in contracts are not binding
> 
> judges have laughed & punished them for their tos, its why we cant be fired for acceptance rate when before hundreds of thousands were
> 
> if you sign a lease, and you come home one day to see the landlord on the porch with a new lease & keys, he says you can't go in till you sign a new lease, rents increased 60+%(3 years of 20% cuts, upfront scam...) & you have a roomate in the extra room(no cap on hiring uber every 50feet) & then does it every few months lmao
> 
> that would be illegal, i didnt sign up for charity or these rates, just have to click o.k. to get rides till the ponzi crumbles
> 
> but if they got rid of the 4% like me who make $40+ an hour what would that $3.37 look like lmao
> 
> im cutting off my nose to spite my face i really shouldn't care about these idiots but it would be nice to just drive instead of all these games where im avoiding 90% of the blank contracts they send me trying to get free labor
> 
> they have also been sued & lost & currently under more investigation for the bait & switch fraud false advertising ads, went from 90K to 50K to life changing money to $30 an hour to $20 an hour to a gig to a side hustle like selling dime bags or bootlegs lol
> 
> no it doesn't take skill but on average 1-2 people will die on the road in your state its a top 5 most dangerous occupation, no on average it shouldnt pay 50K + a year but it shouldn't cost the same as it did in the 1960s-1980s either
> 
> predatory pricing predatory wages & this sort of behavior is illegal period, the department of labor needs to shut them down, take it over, & allow someone to purchase that will follow regulations or treat it as a jobs program
> 
> losing $9,000 a second 12 million a day & still paying these wages no where close to legit
> 
> shouldn't take MIT to figure out it costs more than $2 to drive 1-5 miles pick up 100-500 pounds of anonymous weight school shooters rapists, robbers... & deliver it 1-5 miles in 2018 when that was an acceptable minimum fare in 1971
> 
> cabs have partitions for a reason & its not to protect riders... chauffers & private drivers arent human rights and there's a reason poor people dont have them but paying labor an agreed upon legal minimum wage is.
> 
> even if mit was off by 4 times it would equal a legal current minimum wage after you figure in costs, a 50 billion dollars algorithm should know not to send out contracts that wont cover costs +
> 
> but MIT info cant be ignored, theyll either come back trolling showing its actually less or dkhos made a hefty "donation"


I fell for the "Make up to $1,500 per week!" and bought a two year old car. Sure, before I did, I scoured the internet and settled upon the Rideshare Guy who, it turns out, isn't so impartial as you'd think (I signed up for Lyft under his name). No where did I find anything that came close to describing the true costs of driving, nor the real amount I would be making. Nowhere. So please stop pounding on people who can't (as apparently many of you CAN) "just find another job" because the areas where Uber pay is really low don't have all that many jobs in general. That said, I can't wait for karma to be applied to some of you, for when you're too old for many jobs and you're turfed out by society. Because it will likely happen - just don't get too comfortable.



transporter007 said:


> You sir, are a scholar thinking outside the box.
> Seriously, as u stated, an argument can be made that the government is supplementing cheap rides.
> They may not realize it, it may not of been the original plan, but they kinda are.


Of course it's the original plan. They hope to supplant bus service and be rid of their union labor altogether. Once Fuber is the one and only transportation provider, the government will have to step up and subsidize a great portion of the rides. But do you even think for a minute that the well-to-do will be on any of those rides?



Nonya busy said:


> The uber app has been going off in the background without warning lately. It did this twice in 1 hour today.
> 
> I know they're doing this to make hourly pay look better because they are not calculating all of the hours you spend waiting.


You have to keep it on top. Uber likes being on top.


----------



## 1.5xorbust

melusine3 said:


> #Shutupyourenew.
> 
> Set your destination filter for a half mile further than your home base. There, fixed it for ya!
> 
> They definitely should have differentiated the areas where per mile/minute is much higher and those areas tend to have lower mileage as rides are concentrated within those areas. They should also separate new drivers, who I believe get more premium rides (and surges - seriously I know a driver who was asked by a new driver a question about the app and she had surge and he didn't); and then the bulk of drivers who make 60 cents or less per mile. Then get back to me. Some of you drivers who do the larger cities can be so judgmental, it's really annoying.


I've never heard of drivers having different surge multipliers in the same area at the same time assuming they are both driving x.


----------



## Nonya busy

melusine3 said:


> I fell for the "Make up to $1,500 per week!" and bought a two year old car. Sure, before I did, I scoured the internet and settled upon the Rideshare Guy who, it turns out, isn't so impartial as you'd think (I signed up for Lyft under his name). No where did I find anything that came close to describing the true costs of driving, nor the real amount I would be making. Nowhere. So please stop pounding on people who can't (as apparently many of you CAN) "just find another job" because the areas where Uber pay is really low don't have all that many jobs in general. That said, I can't wait for karma to be applied to some of you, for when you're too old for many jobs and you're turfed out by society. Because it will likely happen - just don't get too comfortable.
> 
> Of course it's the original plan. They hope to supplant bus service and be rid of their union labor altogether. Once Fuber is the one and only transportation provider, the government will have to step up and subsidize a great portion of the rides. But do you even think for a minute that the well-to-do will be on any of those rides?
> 
> You have to keep it on top. Uber likes being on top.


That sucks. When I'm driving i can look in someone's car to see they are uberlyfting even if they don't have the biich dress i mean trade dress.

I don't believe uber knows which app is on top. Kinda spooky.


----------



## Agent037

at-007smartLP said:


> paying $3.37 an hour and almost 40% of drivers are losing money per hour and they still lose $9000 A SECOND, 12 MILLION PER DAY with a 96% failure rate
> 
> sure its not a ponzi scam envolved in slavery & ACTUAL HUMAN TRAFFICKING
> 
> #NationalizeUber
> 
> they have not been good corporate citizens put america back to work
> 
> $1.50 per mile, .25 per minute, $10 minimum gross Nationwide minimums
> 
> Every adult with a vehicle within 10 years old & can pass a background & drivers license tests now has a fair job with fair pay for an honest days work.
> 
> Thats all the people want
> https://mobile.twitter.com/traviskmadoff
> 
> #jailtravisk #arrestubersboard #uberISmoderndayslavery #uberhumantrafficking
> #uber1981minimumwagein2018shutitdownnationalize
> 
> thats the ticket....
> 
> imagine what it would be if you took the 4% of drivers who succeed, screen, avoid 90% of requests and make $40 an hour does to that $3.37 an hour in 2018
> 
> what year was a $3.37 minimum wage legal? oh yeah 1981 foh imagine the percentage of drivers getting $1 an hour, .30 an hour, negative $1 an hour to come out to an average of $3.37 were talking 1920s wages, and this isnt slavery how


We are paying Uber to screw us over. Uber is Satan, the power of Christ compells you *****! The power of Christ MF!



tohunt4me said:


> A less than 4% RETENTION RATE !
> 
> Sewer workers have 96%
> 
> Grave diggers 98%
> 
> Garbage pickers 88%
> 
> Uber less than 4%
> 
> People would rather be shot at in Afghanistan than Drive for Uber !


In nyc once drivers are persuaded to leave their jobs and join Uber they look at the whole situation like ... Ok this Is it.. let me make the best out of the situation. And it's sad.. there r guys barely breaking even between making a dollar and not. The only ones making a profit is Uber and these 3rd party leasing companies, charging people 3 times and ,4 times what a car is actually worth, just beacuse its TLC ready, some crwal outta the hole, some just stay and look for the green light. Ubers green light. F Uber


----------



## transporter007

Agent037 said:


> We are paying Uber to screw us over. Uber is Satan, the power of Christ compells you *****! The power of Christ MF!
> 
> In nyc once drivers are persuaded to leave their jobs and join Uber they look at the whole situation like ... Ok this Is it.. let me make the best out of the situation. And it's sad.. there r guys barely breaking even between making a dollar and not. The only ones making a profit is Uber and these 3rd party leasing companies, charging people 3 times and ,4 times what a car is actually worth, just beacuse its TLC ready, some crwal outta the hole, some just stay and look for the green light. Ubers green light. F Uber


When did you delete the uber driver app?


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## Agent037

transporter007 said:


> When did you delete the uber driver app?


I haven't deleted it, but I average about 15 rides per week. So goes for Lyft. No pool or lyne, I make my income some other way, relevant? Yeah. Maybe. But that's another subject, I started like everyone else, but no more, bud. They're big but not the only thing out there. Also,.. getting out of the whole rental, lease to own thingie here in nyc has a lot to do with it,. Owning your own vehicle, not doing pool, is a MAJOR FACTOR in coming out on top. Also exploring other platforms, wether that would be base radio dispatch, or simply trying gett or Lyft or Juno. Via... Whatever... As long as fuber doesn't end up raping you lovely.


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## Jesusdrivesuber

Uber just gave themselves a raise in South Florida after this MIT report, LOL.

That won't matter because they still have immigrants taking their work, I'm gonna write the white house to ask Trump to start doing something about all these illegals taking our pennies back to south america, wasn't ICE onto these people? why did they stop? It's the only ****ing way they can start feeling the backlash for their actions.


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## transporter007

Jesusdrivesuber said:


> Uber just gave themselves a raise in South Florida after this MIT report, LOL.
> 
> That won't matter because they still have immigrants taking their work, I'm gonna write the white house to ask Trump to start doing something about all these illegals taking our pennies back to south america, wasn't ICE onto these people? why did they stop? It's the only &%[email protected]!*ing way they can start feeling the backlash for their actions.


*If this wasn't so sad it would be funny*


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## tcaud

Need a car for rideshare? Go on Craigslist or FB Market, pick up a model 4-5 years ahead of the transitioning curve. $3k cash with good transmission and no cosmetic damage. Maintain it for $700/yr until transitioning. Trade it in for $2k. Buy another $3k car. You've got UberX-ready wheels for $800/yr average cost.

Though frankly I find transitioning stupid. I'd prefer being required to keep the car parts in warranty, as this would increase reliability overall across the fleet.


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## Jws1217

at-007smartLP said:


> Uber and Lyft drivers' median hourly wage is just $3.37, report finds
> 
> Majority of drivers make less than minimum wage and many end up losing money, according to study published by MIT
> 
> Sam Levin in San Francisco @SamTLevin
> Email
> 
> Thu 1 Mar 2018 21.09 EST
> Last modified on Thu 1 Mar 2018 21.14 EST
> uber car
> 
> Uber and Lyft drivers in the US make a median profit of $3.37 per hour before taxes, according to a new report that suggests a majority of ride-share workers make below minimum wage and that many actually lose money.
> 
> Researchers did an analysis of vehicle cost data and a survey of over 1,100 drivers for the ride-hailing companies for the paper published by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research. The report - which factored in insurance, maintenance, repairs, fuel and other costs - found that 30% of drivers are losing money on the job and that 74% earn less than the minimum wage in their states.
> 
> The findings have raised fresh concerns about labor standards in the booming sharing economy as companies like Uber and Lyft continue to face scrutiny over their treatment of drivers, who are classified as independent contractors and have few rights or protections.
> 
> "This business model is not currently sustainable," said Stephen Zoepf, executive director of the Center for Automotive Research at Stanford University and co-author of the paper. "The companies are losing money. The businesses are being subsidized by [venture capital] money &#8230; And the drivers are essentially subsidizing it by working for very low wages."
> All workers need unions - including those in Silicon Valley
> Chi Onwurah
> Read more
> 
> Drivers earn a median of 59 cents per mile while incurring a median cost of 30 cents per mile, the report said, adding that for nearly a third of drivers, the costs are ultimately higher than the revenue. The paper reported the average driver profit to be $661 per month.
> 
> While most drivers use vehicles for personal use and ride-hailing services, the bulk of the miles they drive are for work, which can lead to significant short-term and long-term costs, the paper said.
> 
> Given inevitable costs of maintenance, repair and depreciation, "effectively what you're doing as a driver is borrowing against the value of your car," Zoepf said, adding: "It's quite possible that drivers don't realize quite how much they are spending."
> 
> Other studies and surveys have found higher hourly earnings for Uber drivers, in part because there are numerous ways to report income and to calculate costs and time and miles spent on the job.
> 
> Harry Campbell, founder of the Rideshare Guy, a website that has conducted surveys of drivers, said the finding of a $3.37 median hourly profit seemed a bit low, but noted that new drivers were often surprised by the wages.
> 
> "The most common feedback we hear from drivers is they end up earning a lot less than they expected," said Campbell, who partnered with Zoepf on the surveys used in the paper. "There is a lot of turnover in the industry, and that's the number one reason I hear from drivers why they are quitting - they are not making enough."
> 
> Campbell pointed out that Uber itself had struggled to properly consider vehicle costs. Last year, the company shut down its US auto-leasing business after discovering it was losing 18 times more money per vehicle than it had previously understood. Some drivers claimed that the leasing program trapped them in debt.
> 
> An Uber spokesperson broadly criticized the research in a statement: "While the paper is certainly attention grabbing, its methodology and findings are deeply flawed. We've reached out to the paper's authors to share our concerns and suggest ways we might work together to refine their approach."
> 
> Lyft did not respond to a request for comment.


I wish MIT did a study on what Uber and Lyft made off each call? I know they are making more than I am per hour after every fee they take out of my call.


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## transporter007

Jws1217 said:


> I wish MIT did a study on what Uber and Lyft made off each call? I know they are making more than I am per hour after every fee they take out of my call.


Let's put it this way, given a choice I'd rather be an uber executive working out of the San Francisco office. I'm confident they're earning above minimum wage and get dental !!









Recognize Heisenberg DDS before he moved to Albuquerque ?


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## Jws1217

With or without Novocaine  If I was the Dentist??????


----------



## I have nuts

Lol at all the people saying drivers have to treat this like a “profitable business”. Yeah, good luck with that. If you’re so business savvy why are you wasting your time driving for Uber? If you haven’t driven for at least a year, then you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. I’m just glad I got out when I did. I feel sorry for all the people that went out there and bought cars just to drive for Uber, you’re pretty much in indentured servitude.


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## Mars Troll Number 4

I have nuts said:


> Lol at all the people saying drivers have to treat this like a "profitable business". Yeah, good luck with that. If you're so business savvy why are you wasting your time driving for Uber? If you haven't driven for at least a year, then you don't know what the hell you're talking about. I'm just glad I got out when I did. I feel sorry for all the people that went out there and bought cars just to drive for Uber, you're pretty much in indentured servitude.


'

If you treat uber like a business... In many markets you start seeing a loss after the first trip you take,

Then you look into what you're doing wrong, and discover that your not doing anything wrong...


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## KevinH

When $8.55 An Hour Is Not $8.55 An Hour
http://Uberpeople.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/50s.v3.jpg

*Blog:*http://********************/index.php/2018/03/06/when-8-55-an-hour-is-not-8-55-an-hour/

*Medium:* https://medium.com/@pmacafee/when-8-55-hour-is-not-8-55-hour-c2f2a1ec1c0d


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## himynameis

Making real money with uber was always a dream now it's time to wake up


----------



## Taxi2Uber

melusine3 said:


> I fell for the "Make up to $1,500 per week!" and bought a two year old car. Sure, before I did, I scoured the internet and settled upon the Rideshare Guy who, it turns out, isn't so impartial as you'd think (I signed up for Lyft under his name). No where did I find anything that came close to describing the true costs of driving, nor the real amount I would be making. Nowhere. So please stop pounding on people who can't (as apparently many of you CAN) "just find another job" because the areas where Uber pay is really low don't have all that many jobs in general. That said, I can't wait for karma to be applied to some of you, for when you're too old for many jobs and you're turfed out by society. Because it will likely happen - just don't get too comfortable.


The ability for someone to "walk in another man's shoes" has been lost over the years. People have become unable to see any other situation other than the one they are experiencing. The notion that "I make X amount, so should you. I can do Y job, so should you." And on and on. Its weird.


----------



## melusine3

1.5xorbust said:


> I've never heard of drivers having different surge multipliers in the same area at the same time assuming they are both driving x.


It happened. She had surge on her screen, he had none.



Nonya busy said:


> That sucks. When I'm driving i can look in someone's car to see they are uberlyfting even if they don't have the biich dress i mean trade dress.
> 
> I don't believe uber knows which app is on top. Kinda spooky.


Uber's app will send you an alert shriek if it's underneath something else for a certain period of time. Asks you if you want to stay online or log off, it will log off itself if you're not quick enough. Lyft doesn't do that. Lyft will reside quietly in the background for HOURS and then suddenly send you a ride request because you've forgotten it was even on! Lyft is annoying on so many levels.



KevinH said:


> When $8.55 An Hour Is Not $8.55 An Hour
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Blog:* http://Uberpeople.net/index.php/2018/03/06/when-8-55-an-hour-is-not-8-55-an-hour/
> 
> *Medium:* https://medium.com/@pmacafee/when-8-55-hour-is-not-8-55-hour-c2f2a1ec1c0d


As soon as you say RideshareGuy, you know this is why it's a flawed survey. They do need to draw from a forum such as this, since RideShareGuy stands to benefit from any positive info related to either platform because he has links for potential drivers to sign on and he gets bonuses from this. Reading the medium.com article, they bring up important questions that MIT should be listening to instead of UBER! I would go as far as to say RideShareGuy tries to sound impartial, but he isn't. I doubt you would ever hear him say, "Some drivers in some markets lose money regularly." Never, ever. And that's a shame.



transporter007 said:


> *If this wasn't so sad it would be funny*


I know! It's a GIANT Screw You!!!



KevinH said:


> When $8.55 An Hour Is Not $8.55 An Hour
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Blog:* http://Uberpeople.net/index.php/2018/03/06/when-8-55-an-hour-is-not-8-55-an-hour/
> 
> *Medium:* https://medium.com/@pmacafee/when-8-55-hour-is-not-8-55-hour-c2f2a1ec1c0d


The medium.com writer has a FB page and website:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ridesharejustice/about/

http://********************/


----------



## Nonya busy

melusine3 said:


> It happened. She had surge on her screen, he had none.
> 
> Uber's app will send you an alert shriek if it's underneath something else for a certain period of time. Asks you if you want to stay online or log off, it will log off itself if you're not quick enough. Lyft doesn't do that. Lyft will reside quietly in the background for HOURS and then suddenly send you a ride request because you've forgotten it was even on! Lyft is annoying on so many levels.
> 
> As soon as you say RideshareGuy, you know this is why it's a flawed survey. They do need to draw from a forum such as this, since RideShareGuy stands to benefit from any positive info related to either platform because he has links for potential drivers to sign on and he gets bonuses from this. Reading the medium.com article, they bring up important questions that MIT should be listening to instead of UBER! I would go as far as to say RideShareGuy tries to sound impartial, but he isn't. I doubt you would ever hear him say, "Some drivers in some markets lose money regularly." Never, ever. And that's a shame.
> 
> I know! It's a GIANT Screw You!!!
> 
> The medium.com writer has a FB page and website:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/ridesharejustice/about/
> 
> http://Uberpeople.net/


Yes Rideshareguy is an undercover affiliate aka shrill. Site makes affiliate revenue.


----------



## transporter007

himynameis said:


> Making real money with uber was always a dream now it's time to wake up


We can complain that's its not fair, it's illegal it's screwing us to Uber, Regulators, Politicians, Pax and mommy til the cows come home, ain't gonna make any difference.

Time to put on the Big Boy Pants, make the necessary life decisions 
and move on, period 
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/training/adulttraining


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## Nonya busy

transporter007 said:


> We can complain that's its not fair, it's illegal it's screwing us to Uber, Regulators, Politicians, Pax and mommy til the cows come home, ain't gonna make any difference.
> 
> Time to put on the Big Boy Pants, make the necessary life decisions
> and move on, period
> https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/training/adulttraining


I agree time to move on.

But complaining will make a difference. But, by the time the changes come in current drivers will be homeless or dead.


----------



## transporter007

Nonya busy said:


> I agree time to move on.
> 
> But complaining will make a difference. But, by the time the changes come in current drivers will be homeless or dead.


Agreed with one exception, the next change is driverless.
Factory workers once claimed "no machine can replace me!"
They died homeless










Autonomous vehicles will have their own lanes, no need to deal with the human element.

This guy works for ground horse meat . If u meet his wage u can continue to drive


----------



## Nonya busy

transporter007 said:


> Agreed with one exception, the next change is driverless.
> Factory workers once claimed "no machine can replace me!"
> They died homeless
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Autonomous vehicles will have their own lanes, no need to deal with the human element.
> 
> This guy works for ground horse meat . If u meet his wage u can continue to drive


True that's the race. Ubers trying to go driverless before the government steps in to regulate rideshare wages.


----------



## KevinH

Sorry, here is the correct link to the original blog post:
http://********************/index.php/2018/03/06/when-8-55-an-hour-is-not-8-55-an-hour/


----------



## majxl

Nonya busy said:


> True that's the race. Ubers trying to go driverless before the government steps in to regulate rideshare wages.


Uber and all FHV will not survive until the introduction of totally driverless cars. They do not have the billions necessary to maintain and survive the constant Ubermongus losses they are producing year after years. Their press releases, about driverless car, plane or boat, are public relation effort intended to help them introduce an IPO in 2019. 
By the time totally driverless car will be approved, by federal and local laws, Uber and other will be long forgotten...


----------



## Nonya busy

majxl said:


> Uber and all FHV will not survive until the introduction of totally driverless cars. They do not have the billions necessary to maintain and survive the constant Ubermongus losses they are producing year after years. Their press releases, about driverless car, plane or boat, are public relation effort intended to help them introduce an IPO in 2019.
> By the time totally driverless car will be approved, by federal and local laws, Uber and other will be long forgotten...


They're not losing money. I know they complain about losing money but they are not. The major expenses are placed on the drivers. Also drivers provide free marketing by placing uber stickers on front and back windows.


----------



## transporter007

Nonya busy said:


> They're not losing money. I know they complain about losing money but they are not. The major expenses are placed on the drivers. Also drivers provide free marketing by placing uber stickers on front and back windows.


Uber's expenses are very low which is typical for a technology company. Uber wishes they didn't have to pay drivers what they do. They know they can cut fares in half and driver will still drive Uber's clients and new applications to drive will continue. Sad

That's why the rush for autonomous vehicles
Eliminate the drivers and it's smooth sailing


----------



## Nonya busy

transporter007 said:


> Uber's expenses are very low which is typical for a technology company. Uber wishes they didn't have to pay drivers what they do. They know they can cut fares in half and driver will still drive Uber's clients and new applications to drive will continue. Sad
> 
> That's why the rush for autonomous vehicles
> Eliminate the drivers and it's smooth sailing


Yes, no way they're losing money unless it's on developing driverless cars.


----------

