# Los Angeles Uber Drivers Being Arrested?



## UberNewbie99

I found some videos on Youtube showing uber drivers being arrested in some kind of sting operation? Anyone have any info on why this is happening? I tried looking for this in the forum already, but couldn't find it. You can see 4 different videos of drivers being arrested and their cars driven away by cops. These videos are very recent.










2 more in the users videos.


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## NoNameNoGame

Four videos from two weeks ago, no back story:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDTeBoabJsVClW94wghc2Og


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## UberNewbie99

NoNameNoGame said:


> Four videos from two weeks ago, no back story:


I can't find anything, anywhere about this. Scary, I just started doing this. Maybe a huge sting is coming in NYE, LA trying to make some kind of point.


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## Sydney Uber

UberNewbie99 said:


> I can't find anything, anywhere about this. Scary, I just started doing this. Maybe a huge sting is coming in NYE, LA trying to make some kind of point.


If its breaking the law, then there are agencies that are bound to enforce the law. Uber have been happy for their drivers to take all the risks. Taking advantage of people just wanting a job and telling them all is OK because they are a "Technology Company".

Is that starting to sound flimsy to everyone? Will we just understand the chances Uber have been given in so many jurisdictions to become legitimate and legal and be part of the "Transportation Industry".

So these requirements WILL cut into UBER profits, increasing operating costs lowering their ridiculous valuations. So what? Business has to conform with the law or else they get shut down.


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## grUBBER

The youtuber probably doesn't know why, but thanks for uploading.
One driver was doing drop off in downtown, another was waiting on the red curb. They all had a trade dress displayed.
You can't avoid going to downtown if riders take you there.

I don't display trade dress exept in LAX, but it would add another fine to the bundle


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## arto71

Does anyone know how old are these videos? Looks like Olympic and Figueroa corner in downtown Los Angeles.


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## grUBBER

arto71 said:


> Does anyone know how old are these videos? Looks like Olympic and Figueroa corner in downtown Los Angeles.


In the top video a woman is wearing a coat. It must be the night it was uploaded


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## painfreepc

Thanks for the useless video, he drives uber and he's getting arrested.

I know a young lady that had cornflakes and bananas every other morning for breakfast, she died of brain cancer, so we now know cornflakes and bananas can give you cancer or maybe it's the milk.

Uber and lyft is showing us the power of market branding and the power of the news media,

Most lyft clients are easier to deal with than uber clients,
Uber: "Everyone's Private Driver"
Lyft: "Your friend with a car"
that's the power of market branding,

Every time we see a uber/lyft driver stops and/or arrested by cops we automatically assume it rideshare related, that's the power of the news media.


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## Just_in

Just a guess perhaps the LAPD in those video's took note of non commercial plates. There is nothing in the Law that I'm aware that's changed that say's it's o.k to do livery services in a personal vehicle in the state of CA or the city Los Angeles.


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## painfreepc

Just_in said:


> Just a guess perhaps the LAPD in those video's took note of non commercial plates. There is nothing in the Law that I'm aware that's changed that say's it's o.k to do livery services in a personal vehicle in the state of CA or the city Los Angeles.


I have commercial plates, wonder if that will save me.


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## arto71

Looks like it is published December 9 2014.


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## Just_in

painfreepc said:


> I have commercial plates, wonder if that will save me.


Your good to go. You've done it the right way. Don't see why driving with commercial plates would raise any red flags.


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## ShooUber

UberNewbie99 said:


> I found some videos on Youtube showing uber drivers being arrested in some kind of sting operation? Anyone have any info on why this is happening? I tried looking for this in the forum already, but couldn't find it. You can see 4 different videos of drivers being arrested and their cars driven away by cops. These videos are very recent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 more in the users videos.


There was a sting operation in LA a while back by the LAPD, I think it was @OriginalGeek  posted something about the LAPD sting, not sure, but I posted about it sometime back in September, when another drive said that he would pull-up to a possible waiting ride share person on the street and steal that ride from another driver, that's what he did in his taxi world of driving. Anyway I could be wrong but take a look at the videos again you will see a woman/ undercover cop asking something then never get in the car but looks like she flags the motocop to come over it in both videos the white car has two woman/undercover cops. (The one cop in the same white sweater in both videos) They would come to your window and ask if your are and Uber driver and can you give then a ride, and that they didn't have the Uber app but can pay cash. if the driver says yes then the motocop is call over to arrests him. Long story short it was for Illegal cab hailing, (Sorry for the term but it's use sometime as GypsyCab, again sorry to the true Gypsy people, no offense intended) that was becoming a problem in LA. Uber sends out a weekly newsletter, lol "sometimes". Here what it says, because they know it's been a problem;

_If someone comes to your car window looking for a ride, the TNC regulations do not allow you to provide one. Instead, you can advise them to use the Uber app to request a ride with you. Using the Uber Partner app for your trips allows us to make fare adjustments for you, and connect you with your rider if they leave items in your car._


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## painfreepc

Moved to: https://uberpeople.net/threads/honestly-why-not-quit-uber-and-be-a-cabbie.9114/page-4#post-116454


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## ShooUber

That just ***-up, and I would have told the cab company owner to go suck on a big fat one. I would never choose be a taxi driver and been offered it but I rather eat newspaper and sleep under a mudded log. Uber is full time but only temporary for me. I've been doing okay with it not saying it's the best gig I ever had, but I do like that I can work it as and when I please. I do independent film production when I'm not Ubering, so the freedom of that works for me. Sorry to the other readers, I think we should stay within what the thread is about.


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## Desert Driver

UberNewbie99 said:


> I found some videos on Youtube showing uber drivers being arrested in some kind of sting operation? Anyone have any info on why this is happening? I tried looking for this in the forum already, but couldn't find it. You can see 4 different videos of drivers being arrested and their cars driven away by cops. These videos are very recent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 more in the users videos.


Looks like bullshit to me.


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## gman

Desert Driver said:


> Looks like bullshit to me.


Exactly. Same person posted all four videos. So they just happened to be around when these four individuals were getting tickets?


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## ShooUber

Again, yes it was for driver accepting and illegal taxi hail from undercover cops here in LA.

Here's Uber's warning so they don't pay for your ticket and arrest;

_If someone comes to your car window looking for a ride, the TNC regulations do not allow you to provide one. Instead, you can advise them to use the Uber app to request a ride with you. Using the Uber Partner app for your trips allows us to make fare adjustments for you, and connect you with your rider if they leave items in your car. _


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## painfreepc

Moved to: https://uberpeople.net/threads/honestly-why-not-quit-uber-and-be-a-cabbie.9114/page-4#post-116454


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## ShooUber

Found the thread; 
*Los Angeles: Think the cops love us? Think again.*
Discussion in 'Advice' started by OriginalGeek, Aug 10, 2014.

I'm not sure how to hyperlink and old thread to this new one, if someone know how please post how to do that and I will add the hyperlink here to make it easier for everyone. Thanks!


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## UberNewbie99

gman said:


> Exactly. Same person posted all four videos. So they just happened to be around when these four individuals were getting tickets?


If it's a sting operation, I don't see why he wouldn't be. What ShoolUber is saying makes a lot of sense to me. Plus, please explain to me how this is, "bullshit"? What is your explanation to this then? The guy setup some kind of elaborate youtube production in accordance with the LAPD to get a few hundred views on youtube?


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## Desert Driver

UberNewbie99 said:


> If it's a sting operation, I don't see why he wouldn't be. What ShoolUber is saying makes a lot of sense to me. Plus, please explain to me how this is, "bullshit"? What is your explanation to this then? The guy setup some kind of elaborate youtube production in accordance with the LAPD to get a few hundred views on youtube?





UberNewbie99 said:


> If it's a sting operation, I don't see why he wouldn't be. What ShoolUber is saying makes a lot of sense to me. Plus, please explain to me how this is, "bullshit"? What is your explanation to this then? The guy setup some kind of elaborate youtube production in accordance with the LAPD to get a few hundred views on youtube?


Yeah. It looks like horseshit to most of us. More than likely a ********* pulling rogue fares. No big deal.


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## UberNewbie99

Desert Driver said:


> Yeah. It looks like horseshit to most of us. More than likely a ********* pulling rogue fares. No big deal.


But it is 4 people not just one, "*********".


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## ShooUber

Here is the thread from @OriginalGeek



OriginalGeek said:


> *DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, and what I share here is not intended to be legal advice. I am sharing knowledge I have obtained through my own personal research, and what I believe to be the best practices to evade enforcement by Los Angeles' Bandit Taxicab Enforcement Program. You assume all liability associated with using any information presented herein.
> *
> To be fair, plenty of LAPD officers show appreciation for Uber drivers. We are mostly welcomed as a solution to the long and previously intractable problem of drunk driving, and that appreciation is expressed in several ways, including being waved through Sobriety Checkpoints with a simple question, if not some humor too. BUT this is not true for a certain elite squad of LAPD, known as The Bandit Taxicab Enforcement Program (BTEP).
> 
> Let me first make clear, Transit Network Companies (TNCs) like Uber and Lyft are NOT Bandit Taxicab operations. They have been licensed to operate by the CA Public Utilities Commission. The BTEPs focus is supposed to be on flat out illegal taxicab operators, guys who just have cars and distribute business cards and advertise in niche weekly newspapers to get riders, and are very popular within certain immigrant populations in the city.
> 
> But here's the rub. The BTEP is funded by a $0.20/fare levy to taxicab fares. TNCs and black cars don't pay this fee. The BTEP is made up of officers who work bandit taxicab enforcement ONLY on an overtime basis. With certain taxicab operators in L.A. claiming that Uber has taken away 50% of their business, it follows that these officers now enjoy about 50% of the overtime pay they previously earned. And they are coming out gangbusters to defend their overtime pay, and have us in their sights.
> 
> Here is a report from LADOT General Manager to the L.A. Board of Taxicab Commissioners on April 17, 2014. You might want to give it a thorough read:
> 
> http://ens.lacity.org/ladot/taxicabreports/ladottaxicabreports242487779_05152014.pdf
> 
> In a prior thread: California Operating Permits and Proof of Insurance a link was posted to the CA PUC site (thanks @Oc_DriverX) where you can obtain copies of the excess insurance certificates and TCP operating permits. I carry copies of these with me at all times, because you must produce these documents on demand to a peace officer. You may wish to do the same. A Waybill is also required on demand in Los Angeles (and perhaps other localities). The Uber Driver App allows you to display the waybill no problem...and this may result in the phone being confiscated as "evidence", so be polite if asked to show the waybill. The Lyft App has no facility to display a waybill. Lyft leadership has told me the Lyft App is "certified by the PUC", and just showing the ride in progress in the app will be sufficient. L.A. Municipal Code 71.27 does not provide any exception to displaying a waybill, with a requirement of 9 detailed items being displayed on it.
> 
> Citations are being issued, and vehicles are being impounded. BTEP impounds have been codified to a minimum of 30 days, to deter Bandit Taxicab operators. There is availability of a hearing early in the 30 days, and you may be able to get your car out early with some contrition and clearly demonstrating you are a legit TNC driver, but who wants to deal with that?
> 
> The most stories I have heard revolve around sting operations run by the BTEP that involve trying to trick kind hearted TNC drivers like ourselves into accepting a "street hail". I'm sure all of you have been advised to only take a ride if it comes through the phone, with no explanation about why. So the thing is, picking up a passenger when hailed on the street by someone flagging you down is the EXCLUSIVE DOMAIN of Taxicabs. No TNC nor TCP operator is allowed to do that. TNCs and TCPs have to operate on the basis that the ride is prearranged, with a pickup at a particular time and place. The CA PUC has decided that such prearrangement can be made on demand through a smartphone app.
> 
> What the sting looks like is the TNC driver is stopped after a drop off or on a break at <wherever>, and is approached by some undercover officers, who ask the driver to give them a ride. One story I hear of, the undercover officers were hot chicks, and the driver, a young man, parked at the Jack in the Box on Sunset & Cahuenga, was taken away in handcuffs and his car impounded. The women asked for a ride, the driver said "Sorry, I'm off duty, and you have to use the app", "We don't have the app, can you help us install it?". As soon as he started helping, they hooked him up and whisked him off to a mobile command center set up nearby. Not exactly a "street hail", but I think they can make the case. Nevertheless, it doesn't matter if the case sticks or not, they are tracking arrests so they can obtain more funding for BTEP (source: http://ens.lacity.org/cao/cao_budget_memo/caocao_budget_memo292587615_05072014.pdf )
> 
> The other story I heard, a woman driver dropped someone off at LA Live, and was approached by an officer and arrested / car impounded when trying to help them get the app.
> 
> Both of those stories were relayed to me by my wife, and she read them on the Lyft So. Cal Driver's Lounge on Facebook.
> 
> I was targeted myself, last weekend. I dropped off at Jumbo's. A guy in a leather jacket was roaming around the parking lot, sort of checking everyone out. I initially made him as a bouncer. I was surprised when he opened my passenger door and asked "Hey can you help us out, we need a ride". Then I knew the authority figure vibe I was reading was because he was a cop. My answer "I'm sorry, I can't". Here's how I know he was undercover: he said "ok, thanks". A person in need of a ride would have at least given me some attitude or asked "why not", especially if they had been drinking. The guy knew I made him, and moved on to find more prey. Many thanks to my wife for telling me all about this BS the night before I encountered the guy, or I would have been kindhearted enough to try to help the guy out.


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## UberNewbie99

Shoouber, Yeah I found it and I read the whole thing. lots of good information, I will be much more careful from now on.


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## Desert Driver

UberNewbie99 said:


> But it is 4 people not just one, "*********".


Yeah, I agree. It looks like bullshit. If you're not doing anything illegal, then no reason for concern. I'm having a great season so far - $3000 in five weeks of driving. And that's just driving a few hours at night and then long shifts on weekend nights. What's not to like, right?


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## Uberzilla

Something wrong here.all 4 videos the same place?Dtla?same streets?accrose street of Staples Center and same person taking videos?it's kind of unbelievable!!!


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## Uberzilla

LAX Cop Harassing My Uber Driver:


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## Desert Driver

Uberzilla said:


> Something wrong here.all 4 videos the same place?Dtla?same streets?accrose street of Staples Center and same person taking videos?it's kind of unbelievable!!!


Yeah. This is a bullshit thread. Nothing going on here.


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## getemtheresafely

ShooUber said:


> If someone comes to your car window looking for a ride, the TNC regulations do not allow you to provide one.


I had this happen last night.... I told the lady that I was not allowed to take her unless she requests me by using uber...... She could've very well been working undercover..... I'm so glad I didn't accept (can't afford to go to jail)


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## ShooUber

Desert Driver said:


> Yeah. This is a bullshit thread. Nothing going on here.


Your probably right but if my posting can help a new or unknowing driver here in LA, it makes my time worth it. BTW There is away for people to ignore a thread, instead of posting useless comments.



UberNewbie99 said:


> Shoouber, Yeah I found it and I read the whole thing. lots of good information, I will be much more careful from now on.


 @UberNewbie99 I'm glad you found it informative and defuse your concern about those old videos.


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## MoneyUber4

Thank you for the videos. It proof that you can be arrested for any thing. 
It looks like these drivers were unlawfully parked in a heavy traffic area. 
We do not know. 
I don't see what the charge could be to merit an arrest. 
May be the U sign gave him away. 

A guy asked me yesterday if I was a U-Holes driver 
I said, yes I am - I ask him if he was a member and wanted me to be driving in?
He said, no today and walk away. 
How can they confuse U for Uber with U-Holes driver? Huh??


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## UL Driver SF

ShooUber said:


> There was a sting operation in LA a while back by the LAPD, I think it was @OriginalGeek  posted something about the LAPD sting, not sure, but I posted about it sometime back in September, when another drive said that he would pull-up to a possible waiting ride share person on the street and steal that ride from another driver, that's what he did in his taxi world of driving. Anyway I could be wrong but take a look at the videos again you will see a woman/ undercover cop asking something then never get in the car but looks like she flags the motocop to come over it in both videos the white car has two woman/undercover cops. (The one cop in the same white sweater in both videos) They would come to your window and ask if your are and Uber driver and can you give then a ride, and that they didn't have the Uber app but can pay cash. if the driver says yes then the motocop is call over to arrests him. Long story short it was for Illegal cab hailing, (Sorry for the term but it's use sometime as GypsyCab, again sorry to the true Gypsy people, no offense intended) that was becoming a problem in LA. Uber sends out a weekly newsletter, lol "sometimes". Here what it says, because they know it's been a problem;
> 
> _If someone comes to your car window looking for a ride, the TNC regulations do not allow you to provide one. Instead, you can advise them to use the Uber app to request a ride with you. Using the Uber Partner app for your trips allows us to make fare adjustments for you, and connect you with your rider if they leave items in your car._


Wanna **** with these guys?

If you feel you are being set up all you need do is...go offline. Tell them you just went off line and that you are not a taxi so you can't accept money to,drive them. You are however willing to give them a ride anywhere they want for free. Big wide eyed smile while nodding your head. Even take a picture of them for added creepiness.

If you get a picture of them....post it here.


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## UberNewbie99

ShooUber said:


> Your probably right but if my posting can help a new or unknowing driver here in LA, it makes my time worth it. BTW There is away for people to ignore a thread, instead of posting useless comments.
> 
> @UberNewbie99 I'm glad you found it informative and defuse your concern about those old videos.


These videos are 2 weeks old and I couldn't find anything about them? and they are "OLD"


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## driveLA

Pretty sure the videos are some sting operation for fare solicitation outside the app. 

Not for being illegally parked or anything. 

I work than area a lot and most drivers will Park in the red until a cop comes and tells them to move. But that's all they do. 

Glad I saw this though. Will make me more careful about random people trying to get rides.


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## UL Driver SF

driveLA said:


> Pretty sure the videos are some sting operation for fare solicitation outside the app.
> 
> Not for being illegally parked or anything.
> 
> I work than area a lot and most drivers will Park in the red until a cop comes and tells them to move. But that's all they do.
> 
> Glad I saw this though. Will make me more careful about random people trying to get rides.


Be careful about people wanting you to turn off the app and drive them.


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## ShooUber

UberNewbie99 said:


> These videos are 2 weeks old and I couldn't find anything about them? and they are "OLD"


Well they could be uploaded to YouTube two weeks ago but how will you know when they were recorded. But it could be a continued LAPD sting. who know? Anyway this thread getting boring. This is my last post on this topic. Good night.


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## UberNewbie99

ShooUber said:


> Well they could be uploaded to YouTube two weeks ago but how will you know when they were recorded. But it could be a continued LAPD sting. who know? Anyway this thread getting boring. This is my last post on this topic. Good night.


UPDATE: I just got a reply from youtube uploaded he told me it was indeed two weeks ago and he said it was many more cars but he only uploaded 4. He said it was about 15-20.


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## Sydney Uber

ShooUber said:


> There was a sting operation in LA a while back by the LAPD, I think it was @OriginalGeek  posted something about the LAPD sting, not sure, but I posted about it sometime back in September, when another drive said that he would pull-up to a possible waiting ride share person on the street and steal that ride from another driver, that's what he did in his taxi world of driving. Anyway I could be wrong but take a look at the videos again you will see a woman/ undercover cop asking something then never get in the car but looks like she flags the motocop to come over it in both videos the white car has two woman/undercover cops. (The one cop in the same white sweater in both videos) They would come to your window and ask if your are and Uber driver and can you give then a ride, and that they didn't have the Uber app but can pay cash. if the driver says yes then the motocop is call over to arrests him. Long story short it was for Illegal cab hailing, (Sorry for the term but it's use sometime as GypsyCab, again sorry to the true Gypsy people, no offense intended) that was becoming a problem in LA. Uber sends out a weekly newsletter, lol "sometimes". Here what it says, because they know it's been a problem;
> 
> _If someone comes to your car window looking for a ride, the TNC regulations do not allow you to provide one. Instead, you can advise them to use the Uber app to request a ride with you. Using the Uber Partner app for your trips allows us to make fare adjustments for you, and connect you with your rider if they leave items in your car._


Sad, but I guess Uber would drop those drivers like a hot stone. No legal support because the illegal activity the driver was caught trying wouldn't have profited Uber.

But if Uber allowed tips and charged a fair base rate then the need for struggling drivers to tout for cash work would be diminished


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## LA Cabbie

It is illegal in the state of california to solicit or bargain fares if you are not liscensed to do so. It is an arrestable offense. You could however ask for gas money. Authorities do run stings all the time. When confronted with someone who asks how much always say it is gas money. I know for a would be real passenger this is awkward but keep in mind that if this was a sting operation and you admit to a fare, you are going to jail and your car will impounded!

Ridesharers, please, please, if you want to make a career out of driving for uber then get your permit and commercial tags along with proper insurance.

Shame on uber for making taxi service appear so mundane that anyone can do it all they need is a car.


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## Walkersm

The question I still have after the initial post about the situation was if some of the drivers were arrested for assisting the passenger in downloading the app. In other words trying to do it the legal way but still getting busted. And if they were what eventually came of the charges.

Or else it is just as I suspect many drivers are hustling the off the clock rides because the Uber rate is so low.


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## UL Driver SF

Sydney Uber said:


> Sad, but I guess Uber would drop those drivers like a hot stone. No legal support because the illegal activity the driver was caught trying wouldn't have profited Uber.
> 
> But if Uber allowed tips and charged a fair base rate then the need for struggling drivers to tout for cash work would be diminished


No it wouldn't. Look at what people advocate on here. If someone is taking cash street hail now then they will do it with a better pay rate. No commission cut.

Why is It ubers responsibility to defend these guys?


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## Desert Driver

Look, folks, let's just get one thing straight here. There is nothing illegal about driving for Uber, Lyft, or Sidecar. Now, there may be insurance risk on your personal policy, but that's a different issue. Bottom line: If you're not doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about. But if you're taking off-meter fares, you'll get your ass mowed sooner or later.

Anything else I can clarify, or are we good for now?


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## UL Driver SF

Desert Driver said:


> Look, folks, let's just get one thing straight here. There is nothing illegal about driving for Uber, Lyft, or Sidecar. Now, there may be insurance risk on your personal policy, but that's a different issue. Bottom line: If you're not doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about. But if you're taking off-meter fares, you'll get your assed mowed sooner or later.
> 
> Anything else I can clarify, or are we good for now?


Someone will be along shortly to tell you why it is ubers fault and why you are wrong you schill.


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## jakob

This is one of the reason I don't put up that uber trademark on my car. If someone stops me, I'm dropping off a friend. It all depends who stops you and how much of a dick they are. This few weeks I have passed thru few checkpoints and I got nothing but smiles and friendly gestures from lapd.


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## Desert Driver

UL Driver SF said:


> Someone will be along shortly to tell you why it is ubers fault and why you are wrong you schill.


shill, not schill.

Anything else I can correct for you?


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## Desert Driver

jakob said:


> This is one of the reason I don't put up that uber trademark on my car. If someone stops me, I'm dropping off a friend. It all depends who stops you and how much of a dick they are. This few weeks I have passed thru few checkpoints and I got nothing but smiles and friendly gestures from lapd.


The gendarmes in my city have been nothing but friendly and complimentary of my festively decorated and lit car.


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## UberBlackDriverLA

Desert Driver said:


> Look, folks, let's just get one thing straight here. There is nothing illegal about driving for Uber, Lyft, or Sidecar. Now, there may be insurance risk on your personal policy, but that's a different issue. Bottom line: If you're not doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about. But if you're taking off-meter fares, you'll get your ass mowed sooner or later.
> 
> Anything else I can clarify, or are we good for now?


Actually, unless your car is registered commercially, you are still in violation of the law.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kenbensinger/ubers-yawning-insurance-gap#.sfgQeLpvn


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## Desert Driver

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Actually, unless your car is registered commercially, you are still in violation of the law.
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/kenbensinger/ubers-yawning-insurance-gap#.sfgQeLpvn


If only, right?

But seriously, there wasn't much in the way of facts and data in that article, did you notice? So, did we.


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## UL Driver SF

Desert Driver said:


> shill, not schill.
> 
> Anything else I can correct for you?


Potato...potatoe....iPad said it was right.
All spelling nazis suck.


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## Desert Driver

UL Driver SF said:


> Potato...potatoe....iPad said it was right.
> All spelling nazis suck.


You stand corrected. No need to thank me. I'm here to help.


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## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Actually, unless your car is registered commercially, you are still in violation of the law.
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/kenbensinger/ubers-yawning-insurance-gap#.sfgQeLpvn


You should quote an article that actually uses facts to support its claims. They don't even cite vehicle code sections to back their assertions. Hmmm.....yea lacking.

As for the lease and insurance comments....wow...very poor research done in that area. But hey....they gotta write something.


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## Desert Driver

UL Driver SF said:


> You should quote an article that actually uses facts to support its claims. They don't even cite vehicle code sections to back their assertions. Hmmm.....yea lacking.
> 
> As for the lease and insurance comments....wow...very poor research done in that area. But hey....they gotta write something.


Well, to be fair, this is a forum. Who actually cites data and facts? Well, other than you and me, I mean.


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## UL Driver SF

Desert Driver said:


> Well, to be fair, this is a forum. Who actually cites data and facts? Well, other than you and me, I mean.


You know...you are right. But I didn't ask him to post up facts. Just use an article that does a better job of it.

Journalism is dead. You want to write a hit piece? I support that. Just do it properly.

Most articles these days are written for the cut and paste crowd.


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## Desert Driver

UL Driver SF said:


> You know...you are right. But I didn't ask him to post up facts. Just use an article that does a better job of it.
> 
> Journalism is dead. You want to write a hit piece? I support that. Just do it properly.
> 
> Most articles these days are written for the cut and paste crowd.


Can I cut & paste that?


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## UL Driver SF

Desert Driver said:


> Can I cut & paste that?


Only if you have scissors and gluten free glue.


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## Desert Driver

UL Driver SF said:


> Only if you have scissors and gluten free glue.


You're cracking me up!


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## UL Driver SF

Desert Driver said:


> You're cracking me up!


I'll stop. Screen replacement is expensive.


----------



## haji

old trick done by DOT (department of transportation) and LAPD. Under cover DOT officer approach the driver and asks the driver how much would be if you take me to ,,,,,,. As soon as driver gives prices he is under arrest. UBER divers are not allowed to give prices. This is UBER fault not informing its drivers.
Anyway UBER doesn't know much about transportation and rules.


----------



## UL Driver SF

haji said:


> old trick done by DOT (department of transportation) and LAPD. Under cover DOT officer approach the driver and asks the driver how much would be if you take me to ,,,,,,. As soon as driver gives prices he is under arrest. UBER divers are not allowed to give prices. This is UBER fault not informing its drivers.
> Anyway UBER doesn't know much about transportation and rules.


If that's exactly what's been going on...the extent of the conversation...I'd beat that in court.

I would love to see the case law that says....you can't look up what is publicly available on the uber app and show it to someone who asks.

My guess is...there is more to this.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

Ll


UL Driver SF said:


> You should quote an article that actually uses facts to support its claims. They don't even cite vehicle code sections to back their assertions. Hmmm.....yea lacking.
> 
> As for the lease and insurance comments....wow...very poor research done in that area. But hey....they gotta write something.


*"There's not a shade of gray on it," said Andrew Conway, branch chief of registration policy at the DMV. "If you use the vehicle for commercial purposes, even occasionally, it has to be registered as commercial."*
*
The DMV's Conway said that drivers using personal autos for commercial purposes could be ticketed by police, and the agency said while it would not comment on the specific issues regarding Uber's finance programs, knowingly making false statements on a DMV document is "prosecutable as a criminal offense" and could lead to administrative sanctions against dealers.

Chris Shultz, deputy commissioner of the California Department of Insurance, said law enforcement officials are increasingly concerned that the way rideshare companies advise their drivers to handle insurance could "force otherwise law-abiding people to commit insurance fraud."
*
I'd say that's pretty damn good reporting.

You guys can keep your head head in the sand all you want. You guys can keep busting your ass to make minimum wage while putting everything you own at risk. That's fine with me.

However, when you post misinformation on here, I will call you out. Driving for "rideshare" companies is not completely legal yet and there are enormous risks. People reading these forums need to know the truth.
*
*


----------



## UberNewbie99

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Ll
> 
> *"There's not a shade of gray on it," said Andrew Conway, branch chief of registration policy at the DMV. "If you use the vehicle for commercial purposes, even occasionally, it has to be registered as commercial."
> 
> The DMV's Conway said that drivers using personal autos for commercial purposes could be ticketed by police, and the agency said while it would not comment on the specific issues regarding Uber's finance programs, knowingly making false statements on a DMV document is "prosecutable as a criminal offense" and could lead to administrative sanctions against dealers.
> 
> Chris Shultz, deputy commissioner of the California Department of Insurance, said law enforcement officials are increasingly concerned that the way rideshare companies advise their drivers to handle insurance could "force otherwise law-abiding people to commit insurance fraud."
> *
> I'd say that's pretty damn good reporting.
> 
> You guys can keep your head head in the sand all you want. You guys can keep busting your ass to make minimum wage while putting everything you own at risk. That's fine with me.
> 
> However, when you post misinformation on here, I will call you out. Driving for "rideshare" companies is not completely legal yet and there are enormous risks. People reading these forums need to know the truth.


What you are saying makes a lot of sense. However, at the end of the day as long as they figure out insurance issues and 99% of the cities look the other way very little will happen in terms of commercial DMV guideline enforcement. I can see hybrid insurance policies being implemented nationwide very soon, of course there will be cities that don't want Uber at all as has already been shown and that is fine it's part of the business. Uber can worry about paying off the right politicians to have the police department look the other way regarding DMV technicalities. I just started doing this and I'm very worried about insurance. So I do the following, the biggest gray area is being online while looking for rides and getting into a car accident, so I avoid this completely and I just park somewhere and wait for rides. I only work in areas I feel very comfortable and don't have heavy traffic, I also avoid the airport all together no pickups or dropoffs not worth the trouble. I only work on Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday. I know this means less money, but certainly not minimum wage. I make about $17-$19/HR take home after uber/gas as long as I can do that I'm fine, this isn't my only job and I don't plan on making it. I'm only part-time and will always be, I know full-timers have a whole set of different problems.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UberNewbie99 said:


> What you are saying makes a lot of sense. However, at the end of the day as long as they figure out insurance issues and 99% of the cities look the other way very little will happen in terms of commercial DMV guideline enforcement. I can see hybrid insurance policies being implemented nationwide very soon, of course there will be cities that don't want Uber at all as has already been shown and that is fine it's part of the business. Uber can worry about paying off the right politicians to have the police department look the other way regarding DMV technicalities. I just started doing this and I'm very worried about insurance. So I do the following, the biggest gray area is being online while looking for rides and getting into a car accident, so I avoid this completely and I just park somewhere and wait for rides. I only work in areas I feel very comfortable and don't have heavy traffic, I also avoid the airport all together no pickups or dropoffs not worth the trouble. I only work on Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday. I know this means less money, but certainly not minimum wage. I make about $17-$19/HR take home after uber/gas as long as I can do that I'm fine, this isn't my only job and I don't plan on making it. I'm only part-time and will always be, I know full-timers have a whole set of different problems.


You are correct, a cop writing you a citation is the least of your concerns. You should be worried about getting into an accident and then having a court finding out you were operating illegally. God forbid if there is a fatality in the accident.


----------



## UberNewbie99

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> You are correct, a cop writing you a citation is the least of your concerns. You should be worried about getting into an accident and then having a court finding out you were operating illegally. God forbid if there is a fatality in the accident.


As I already mentioned, it is all about coverage. If you get into an accident and you are covered and everyone gets paid, these DMV technicalities certainly might get you citation and a big one at that perhaps. However, regarding your other scenario. Can you show any case at all that has had an Uber driver going to court and prosecuted solely based on him driving "illegally"? When we start talking about going to court, you're already talking about something in a completely different universe. If something bad enough has happen that it would have to be taken to court the least of your worries would be commercial DMV guideline violations.If you are going to court it is most likely because of vehicular manslaughter or something of that sort with you being at fault, prosecutors won't give a crap about what minor commercial violation you broke that normally only warrants a ticket they want to give you hard time. At that point, anyone is at risk no matter what kind of insurance, license or anything else you can think of won't protect you. Or do you have an anti vehicular manslaughter coverage? Its fine to keep people informed but lets try to keep it in the realm of reality.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UberNewbie99 said:


> As I already mentioned, it is all about coverage. If you get into an accident and you are covered and everyone gets paid, these DMV technicalities certainly might get you citation and a big one at that perhaps. However, regarding your other scenario. Can you show any case at all that has had an Uber driver going to court and prosecuted solely based on him driving "illegally"? When we start talking about going to court, you're already talking about something in a completely different universe. If something bad enough has happen that it would have to be taken to court the least of your worries would be commercial DMV guideline violations.If you are going to court it is most likely because of vehicular manslaughter or something of that sort with you being at fault, prosecutors won't give a crap about what minor commercial violation you broke that normally only warrants a ticket they want to give you hard time. At that point, anyone is at risk no matter what kind of insurance, license or anything else you can think of won't protect you. Or do you have an anti vehicular manslaughter coverage? Its fine to keep people informed but lets try to keep it in the realm of reality.


You can minimalize the risk all you want. But i'm of the opinion that the fact you should not have been operating to begin with will not help you in a criminal or civil case. Consult your attorney.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

Another issue... If you turn a claim into Uber insurance they will automatically contact your personal insurance carrier. This will result in cancelation of your policy. You are going to have a hard time getting insurance after that.


----------



## UberNewbie99

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Another issue... If you turn a claim into Uber insurance they will automatically contact your personal insurance carrier. This will result in cancelation of your policy. You are going to have a hard time getting insurance after that.


From my understanding uber acts as your primary insurance if you get into an accident while doing a job for uber. I haven't heard of Uber reporting you to your own insurance, but I might be wrong please show some proof of this happening?I would be very interested if this is the case. Kind of hard to believe that Uber would automatically shooting themselves in the foot since under their insurance guidelines they would have to pay for the damage anyway, and they are fully aware they would most likely lose a driver by reporting them to their insurance.

Straight from uber.


If you have comprehensive and collision coverage for your vehicle on your personal auto policy, you are covered for comprehensive and collision by simply providing evidence that this coverage was in place at the time of the accident. Our insurer will no longer require you to make a claim on your personal auto insurance in order to get this coverage. This helps you get back on the road faster.


----------



## UberNewbie99

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> You can minimalize the risk all you want. But i'm of the opinion that the fact you should not have been operating to begin with will not help you in a criminal or civil case. Consult your attorney.


I agree with you it won't help you, however, at that point least of your worries if you're already in court for something more serious.


----------



## Desert Driver

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Ll
> 
> *"There's not a shade of gray on it," said Andrew Conway, branch chief of registration policy at the DMV. "If you use the vehicle for commercial purposes, even occasionally, it has to be registered as commercial."
> 
> The DMV's Conway said that drivers using personal autos for commercial purposes could be ticketed by police, and the agency said while it would not comment on the specific issues regarding Uber's finance programs, knowingly making false statements on a DMV document is "prosecutable as a criminal offense" and could lead to administrative sanctions against dealers.
> 
> Chris Shultz, deputy commissioner of the California Department of Insurance, said law enforcement officials are increasingly concerned that the way rideshare companies advise their drivers to handle insurance could "force otherwise law-abiding people to commit insurance fraud."
> *
> I'd say that's pretty damn good reporting.
> 
> You guys can keep your head head in the sand all you want. You guys can keep busting your ass to make minimum wage while putting everything you own at risk. That's fine with me.
> 
> However, when you post misinformation on here, I will call you out. Driving for "rideshare" companies is not completely legal yet and there are enormous risks. People reading these forums need to know the truth.


Opinions are like assholes: Everyone has one.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UberNewbie99 said:


> From my understanding uber acts as your primary insurance if you get into an accident while doing a job for uber. I haven't heard of Uber reporting you to your own insurance, but I might be wrong please show some proof of this happening?I would be very interested if this is the case. Kind of hard to believe that Uber would automatically shooting themselves in the foot since under their insurance guidelines they would have to pay for the damage anyway, and they are fully aware they would most likely lose a driver by reporting them to their insurance.
> 
> Straight from uber.
> 
> 
> If you have comprehensive and collision coverage for your vehicle on your personal auto policy, you are covered for comprehensive and collision by simply providing evidence that this coverage was in place at the time of the accident. Our insurer will no longer require you to make a claim on your personal auto insurance in order to get this coverage. This helps you get back on the road faster.


Don't be naive. No matter how you try to justify it, insurance is a major risk when driving for a TNC. If you have any doubt that your insurance will discover your accident, please read this article.

http://www.businessinsider.com/car-insurance-consumers-often-in-the-dark-about-clue-reports-2011-11


----------



## DjTim

Desert Driver said:


> Opinions are like assholes: Everyone has one.


This has become my de facto reply here LOL!


----------



## Desert Driver

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Don't be naive. No matter how you try to justify it, insurance is a major risk when driving for a TNC. If you have any doubt that your insurance will discover your accident, please read this article.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/car-insurance-consumers-often-in-the-dark-about-clue-reports-2011-11


This is the very reason why legal experts are saying that the Uber model has 12 to 18 months of life left in this country.


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Ll
> 
> *"There's not a shade of gray on it," said Andrew Conway, branch chief of registration policy at the DMV. "If you use the vehicle for commercial purposes, even occasionally, it has to be registered as commercial."
> 
> The DMV's Conway said that drivers using personal autos for commercial purposes could be ticketed by police, and the agency said while it would not comment on the specific issues regarding Uber's finance programs, knowingly making false statements on a DMV document is "prosecutable as a criminal offense" and could lead to administrative sanctions against dealers.
> 
> Chris Shultz, deputy commissioner of the California Department of Insurance, said law enforcement officials are increasingly concerned that the way rideshare companies advise their drivers to handle insurance could "force otherwise law-abiding people to commit insurance fraud."
> *
> I'd say that's pretty damn good reporting.
> 
> You guys can keep your head head in the sand all you want. You guys can keep busting your ass to make minimum wage while putting everything you own at risk. That's fine with me.
> 
> However, when you post misinformation on here, I will call you out. Driving for "rideshare" companies is not completely legal yet and there are enormous risks. People reading these forums need to know the truth.


Yet not one of them references any code sections to back up their claims. What to know why? Because they probably don't know them or how they are enforced. DMV has gotten far better at what they do but with the stacks of regulations I doubt most can keep up with them. Usually those people can simply cite examples like say....how the guy who delivers news papers or your dominoes pizza driver are now breaking the law by using their non commercial vehicle for commercial use. Ready to throw that guy in jail? Fact is...if it was that simple...any jurisdiction could shut down über, lyft, et all on the spot. Uber could challenge it in court all they wanted and it would make no difference. Cite and tow. Cite and tow. Cite and tow. 30 day impounds. $2k to $3.5k to get your car back. Fines. Dead in the water. They would literally run out of lot space to store the cars. At least in Ca. Other states I don't know.

Oh...as for DMV being even the least bit interested in this....they aren't. The who what where how why and when on all these leases are easy to find. DMV can easily challenge and investigate and shut the process down. No registration...no car on the road. Now in Ca you might be ok for 90 days...unless DMV flags you in the system. Then once pulled over your car can be towed on the spot and any insurance claims denied.

As for users finance program? What program? Uber doesn't finance cars. The dealership is setting up your finance and it doesn't go through uber. The lease agreement they showed isn't even a lease agreement in CA. My brother In law runs car dealerships. I showed this to him when he was over for Xmas dinner. He just laughed. The documentation they showed won't get you a vehicle in California. So where are the rest of those documents? Why didn't they show them?

BTW...23% ... I thought it would be higher the way people on here described it. Believe it or not that isn't out side the norm for people who would have to use this financing. And guess what? You pretty much could never lease a vehicle if your credit required that kind of interest rate. And definitely not for 5 years. My question is....what if your credit is better? Is this the only rate you can get. Because if you can get rates to match your credit rating.....then you would be onto something.

As for the insurance thing? Here is part of what I know about it. Simply put you have to have insurance to drive a vehicle on the roads in CA. Period. Since you are using your personal vehicle and will drive it...let's call it off hours....en you have to have personal insurance. You could not drive the vehicle otherwise. You are covered by uber and lifts insurance while driving for them. No accident you have while driving for them would be covered by your personal insurance. Pretty simple. Don't report a work accident to your personal insurance and you won't be committing insurance fraud. My agent has a girl in her office that drives for uber. Seem to be no problem.

Let's address one more thing. Want a valid issue? Here it is....

They say you can only use the vehicle for driving for uber. The vehicle is registered as a personal vehicle. Those two would conflict in that contract. Is that contract valid? Could it be challenged and won? Looks a possible major issue to me.

General journalism suck as do the people who write and publish it. No matter what the subject.


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Another issue... If you turn a claim into Uber insurance they will automatically contact your personal insurance carrier. This will result in cancelation of your policy. You are going to have a hard time getting insurance after that.


This is not true.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF said:


> Yet not one of them references any code sections to back up their claims. What to know why? Because they probably don't know them or how they are enforced. DMV has gotten far better at what they do but with the stacks of regulations I doubt most can keep up with them. Usually those people can simply cite examples like say....how the guy who delivers news papers or your dominoes pizza driver are now breaking the law by using their non commercial vehicle for commercial use. Ready to throw that guy in jail? Fact is...if it was that simple...any jurisdiction could shut down über, lyft, et all on the spot. Uber could challenge it in court all they wanted and it would make no difference. Cite and tow. Cite and tow. Cite and tow. 30 day impounds. $2k to $3.5k to get your car back. Fines. Dead in the water. They would literally run out of lot space to store the cars. At least in Ca. Other states I don't know.
> 
> Oh...as for DMV being even the least bit interested in this....they aren't. The who what where how why and when on all these leases are easy to find. DMV can easily challenge and investigate and shut the process down. No registration...no car on the road. Now in Ca you might be ok for 90 days...unless DMV flags you in the system. Then once pulled over your car can be towed on the spot and any insurance claims denied.
> 
> As for users finance program? What program? Uber doesn't finance cars. The dealership is setting up your finance and it doesn't go through uber. The lease agreement they showed isn't even a lease agreement in CA. My brother In law runs car dealerships. I showed this to him when he was over for Xmas dinner. He just laughed. The documentation they showed won't get you a vehicle in California. So where are the rest of those documents? Why didn't they show them?
> 
> BTW...23% ... I thought it would be higher the way people on here described it. Believe it or not that isn't out side the norm for people who would have to use this financing. And guess what? You pretty much could never lease a vehicle if your credit required that kind of interest rate. And definitely not for 5 years. My question is....what if your credit is better? Is this the only rate you can get. Because if you can get rates to match your credit rating.....then you would be onto something.
> 
> As for the insurance thing? Here is part of what I know about it. Simply put you have to have insurance to drive a vehicle on the roads in CA. Period. Since you are using your personal vehicle and will drive it...let's call it off hours....en you have to have personal insurance. You could not drive the vehicle otherwise. You are covered by uber and lifts insurance while driving for them. No accident you have while driving for them would be covered by your personal insurance. Pretty simple. Don't report a work accident to your personal insurance and you won't be committing insurance fraud. My agent has a girl in her office that drives for uber. Seem to be no problem.
> 
> Let's address one more thing. Want a valid issue? Here it is....
> 
> They say you can only use the vehicle for driving for uber. The vehicle is registered as a personal vehicle. Those two would conflict in that contract. Is that contract valid? Could it be challenged and won? Looks a possible major issue to me.
> 
> General journalism suck as do the people who write and publish it. No matter what the subject.


Here ya go.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d1/260
No grey area. You are transporting for hire, compensation and profit. Your car is commercial.


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

UL Driver SF said:


> This is not true.


very true.


----------



## UL Driver SF

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> very true.


No it's not. This is one where I will require proof as it would have been supplied in the form of a document telling you of the cancellation and why.

Let's see that document. Co any letterhead...date...claim number...the whole 9 yards.

I know you won't produce it. And you do t have to. I know drivers who have been in accidents, driving for Uber and Lyft, and not one has had this happen.


----------



## Desert Driver

UL Driver SF said:


> Yet not one of them references any code sections to back up their claims. What to know why? Because they probably don't know them or how they are enforced. DMV has gotten far better at what they do but with the stacks of regulations I doubt most can keep up with them. Usually those people can simply cite examples like say....how the guy who delivers news papers or your dominoes pizza driver are now breaking the law by using their non commercial vehicle for commercial use. Ready to throw that guy in jail? Fact is...if it was that simple...any jurisdiction could shut down über, lyft, et all on the spot. Uber could challenge it in court all they wanted and it would make no difference. Cite and tow. Cite and tow. Cite and tow. 30 day impounds. $2k to $3.5k to get your car back. Fines. Dead in the water. They would literally run out of lot space to store the cars. At least in Ca. Other states I don't know.
> 
> Oh...as for DMV being even the least bit interested in this....they aren't. The who what where how why and when on all these leases are easy to find. DMV can easily challenge and investigate and shut the process down. No registration...no car on the road. Now in Ca you might be ok for 90 days...unless DMV flags you in the system. Then once pulled over your car can be towed on the spot and any insurance claims denied.
> 
> As for users finance program? What program? Uber doesn't finance cars. The dealership is setting up your finance and it doesn't go through uber. The lease agreement they showed isn't even a lease agreement in CA. My brother In law runs car dealerships. I showed this to him when he was over for Xmas dinner. He just laughed. The documentation they showed won't get you a vehicle in California. So where are the rest of those documents? Why didn't they show them?
> 
> BTW...23% ... I thought it would be higher the way people on here described it. Believe it or not that isn't out side the norm for people who would have to use this financing. And guess what? You pretty much could never lease a vehicle if your credit required that kind of interest rate. And definitely not for 5 years. My question is....what if your credit is better? Is this the only rate you can get. Because if you can get rates to match your credit rating.....then you would be onto something.
> 
> As for the insurance thing? Here is part of what I know about it. Simply put you have to have insurance to drive a vehicle on the roads in CA. Period. Since you are using your personal vehicle and will drive it...let's call it off hours....en you have to have personal insurance. You could not drive the vehicle otherwise. You are covered by uber and lifts insurance while driving for them. No accident you have while driving for them would be covered by your personal insurance. Pretty simple. Don't report a work accident to your personal insurance and you won't be committing insurance fraud. My agent has a girl in her office that drives for uber. Seem to be no problem.
> 
> Let's address one more thing. Want a valid issue? Here it is....
> 
> They say you can only use the vehicle for driving for uber. The vehicle is registered as a personal vehicle. Those two would conflict in that contract. Is that contract valid? Could it be challenged and won? Looks a possible major issue to me.
> 
> General journalism suck as do the people who write and publish it. No matter what the subject.


Excellent retort. Very thoughtful and logical. Well done.


----------



## ShooUber

"Let's start with I'm not a Lawyer"
For California only (each USA state has their own PUC, and they might go by a different name) The (CPUC) CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, of is where you should try to get info about being part if a TNC, not a forum where anyone can post shooty info and personal opinions or their personal understanding of the rules and regulations/ laws, none of the poster have stated having legal license to give advice. If anyone does use the hyperlink below and have questions, your best options are Call the CPUC office or call a Lawyer to clarify it for you.

http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/PUC/Enforcement/TNC/

Hope it helps!


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

ShooUber said:


> "Let's start with I'm not a Lawyer"
> For California only (each USA state has their own PUC, and they might go by a different name) The (CPUC) CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, of is where you should try to get info about being part if a TNC, not a forum where anyone can post shooty info and personal opinions or their personal understanding of the rules and regulations/ laws, none of the poster have stated having legal license to give advice. If anyone does use the hyperlink below and have questions, your best options are Call the CPUC office or call a Lawyer to clarify it for you.
> 
> http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/PUC/Enforcement/TNC/
> 
> Hope it helps!


The CPUC does not have authority over vehicle registration. But I always recommend contacting an attorney and did so in an earlier post in this thread. Unfortunately, 99% of UberX drivers will drink the Uber Koolaid and not think for themselves.


----------



## Desert Driver

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> The CPUC does not have authority over vehicle registration. But I always recommend contacting an attorney and did so in an earlier post in this thread. Unfortunately, 99% of UberX drivers will drink the Uber Koolaid and not think for themselves.


We believe that you believe that.


----------



## simon3am

Desert Driver said:


> Opinions are like assholes: Everyone has one.


Yeah and some of them really stink!


----------



## Patrick Menzel

[QUOTE="No grey area. You are transporting for hire, compensation and profit. Your car is commercial."[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the post UBERBLACKDRIVERLA. I agree with your comments. This is sticky for the driver.

I see many happy drivers reading these post and during my service experience, but really that is not the point. It should be apparent you could spend your life being very unhappy with litigation findings when Uber shows up to support just the little of lady and no insurance applies to ($500 max). Plus, how are you going to need car insured for Uber again when your insurance cancels. - I want to get back on the road says the child.

The first time isn't going to "bad on Uber" it will "you." No second chances and with the insurance you'll pay to get back out will again need to follow the state law.

One would have been more than justified just buying a commercial policy for $1,000/month and driving your heart out after seeing the aftermath. This would be a prime example of doctor saying he submitted personal insurance to healthcare organization for malpractice. Most doctors are intelligent to know what insurance they need and just by simply providing his own personal policy the hospital, thier going to be liable for patient. See the issue here? - Problem a doctor knows what his job entails (everything). UBer drivers on the other hand have no clue a person insurance policy will leave them dry. It's required by Uber that all drivers have there own personal insurance. For what, exactly?

I almost started driving until I read your unexplained risks and did a little research. As much as I want to believe I'll be okay, I would think any intelligent adult would realize the risks involved by using the app (state specific). no pun indented; I like the service and drivers, but it's only apparent that this is a RISK.

I did some research on the operations here in phoenix and around the country. Getting on boarded and Uber's practices really stirred up my research skills.

Anyone, I'm happy to send you the information of my story and insurance guidelines for uber as driver in your area.. It's a serious eye opener on top the DMV situation that this gentleman mentioned in the post. Much more that Uber doesn't cover.

Like my post (new user posting qualifications on the site). I want to help and educate you. If you want to turn the other way, that's okay. However, I found the pudding so to speak that drivers must know. If you are considering, this is the information you need to know. Yes, the information has a phone number so you call and stop reading the blogs. Find out for yourself.


----------



## ShooUber

@Patrick Menzel, Here's some research / reading I've done, Enjoy. BTW This only for California since this thread start as "LA driver being arrested"

http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/208D6DD5-F4A3-4A66-8B7C-65CDB0F4265E/0/TNCLimoRegulation_v1.pdf

http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Efile/G000/M094/K268/94268677.PDF

http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M077/K112/77112285.PDF

I think AZ has other issue you should be worried about. Check with Arizona - Weights and Measures office.


----------



## Patrick Menzel

Thanks, ShoUber - These are very interesting articles!

From your posts, it appears there is some issues with states across the country, or at least on the West Coast. -Holy smokes!


----------



## Patrick Menzel

Here is my story:

The AZ ridesharing bill was vetoed, not sure about other states. I'm a snowbird from MN and arrived a few weeks back. My phone was sent back in July 2014 to AZ but never contacted about the risk after a vetoed state bill to operate the device. lol. "Who ya gonna call"?

After researching (my profession) these ghost busters, the model is nothing more than sneaky tactics to bleed you dry, not having insurance, and watching the public eat more tax pay dollars. Uber's limited liability policy cover's little, and yours nothing. We all will eventually pay for neglected services we are providing ourselves; keep reading about this company.

Fact: YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIRD PARTY TRANSPORTATION PROVIDERS PROVIDING TRANSPORTATION SERVICES REQUESTED THROUGH UBERX MAY OFFER RIDESHARING OR PEER-TO-PEER TRANSPORTATION SERVICES AND MAY NOT BE PROFESSIONALLY LICENSED OR PERMITTED. IN NO EVENT SHALL UBER'S TOTAL LIABILITY TO YOU IN CONNECTION WITH THE SERVICES FOR ALL DAMAGES, LOSSES AND CAUSES OF ACTION EXCEED FIVE HUNDRED U.S. DOLLARS (US $500). 
Just because the device was on or in route and the have 1M liability, you're SOL! They advertise it so well, but did you read what you excepted. Did you investigate? No. When the publicity with lobbying is over they will **** everyone body and their true business model will shine!

But I never received anything? - Exactly. Just accept the terms after you upload your photo and sign in. - Uber on!

I mean sneaky as you won't get insurance information from support of Uber's employees. They won't tell their support? There not going let you call them? It should be obvious by now.

Next, the rating of 5* is nothing more than a means of letting you go for no reason. What is measured for 5*? They're no SOPs involved like safety, timely, friendly, personable, and overall experience. Uber can't have standard because that would be too much like evaluation (employer) and plus their not a transportation company to start any sort of matrix with how they classify their assets. You're easily dispensable.

Communication is trust, to me. I've been escalated to the Community Relations Manager to assist with subrogation questions for a week. No phone number or competent support staff to help. The support told me to shop around? I about f**ing lost it. Then when I crafted a good one and haven't heard back. I'm waiting, and I will be waiting. Why? simply, because the support teams doesn't know, or can't tell, and you're waiting awhile they on boarding more drivers. Support can't handle this? It's apparent they're more more concerned with getting everyone on board, then to handle one's questions who are currently driving. - Do the math - are you getting the big picture yet!

Uber not stating your state's restrictions to the device is fraud, as far I'm concerned. However you're liable, putting other party's liable to Uber's liability coverage and insurance that is not coverage by you. Then when litigation occurs with their policy, after declining yours, their only partially responsible on Uber's liability account. The public pays; the taxpayers. Uber walks. That's exactly who they are. If you are not the slightest bit skeptical, I would do a little more research.

Any new company will have new hire orientation, not Uber. They do WHATEVER THEY WANT. As this gentleman pointed out, it's in their best interest to hide the insurance company and state regulations applied to their device to all users. - I'm not a lover...

GET THE FACTS:

Contact Us
Home Office:
James River Insurance Company
6641 West Broad Street, Suite 300
Richmond, VA 23230
Mail:
James River Insurance Company
PO Box 27648
Richmond, VA 23261-7648
Main Phone Number: (804) 289-2700
Fax Numbers:
Claims Notices - (804) 420-1058
Loss Runs - (804) 549-5095
Marketing - (804) 549-5087

Arizona Office:
14648 N. Scottsdale Road, Suite 330
Scottsdale, AZ 85254
Phone: (480) 409-4801

Atlanta Office
11175 Cicero Dr. Suite 425
Alpharetta, GA 30022
Phone: (470) 223-4020

It's probably in your best interest to find out what your policy covers and what your risks will be played out (this is your life, not Uber, or James River); It's just a phone call (someone you can talk too, and a local office!) Doesn't matter where you live; call and get the facts!

Here is their worthless liability coverage, print a copy and your personal insurance for consultation: www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms

Search google for James River jobs to see had the balls to hire an AZ claims specialist, one month after they veto the bill (when they sent my device); now, don't tell our assets. This is 30 days ago post. Go search their company site to see exact date of post for openings . - Sad, but true; Uber is not good in many ways, especially their business model and principals.

How does the old saying go on wall Street? "The last one here, be sure to turn off the lights."


----------



## ShooUber

Its been like this for a while, since Uber is growing so fast, every state, city and even country are having to come up with new rules and regulations for this fairly new concept of transportation, which in CA is referred to as TNC (Transportation Network Company) not Ride-share. It will take some time to come together since most state lawmakers move slower then molasses or is that Uber is move at the speed of light with expansions. For start at lease San Francisco has approve airport pickup, and Uber is working out things for LAX soon, we'll I hope, but there are talks between them.
Btw, Those hyperlinks have over 100 pages to read (they are legal documents not articles) , are you a speed reader? Just wondering because your reply here was 13 minutes after it posted the links. Now that's Holy smokes reading on your part.


----------



## Patrick Menzel

ShooUber said:


> Its been like this for a while, since Uber is growing so fast, every state, city and even country are having to come up with new rules and regulations for this fairly new concept of transportation, which in CA is referred to as TNC (Transportation Network Company) not Ride-share. It will take some time to come together since most state lawmakers move slower then molasses or is that Uber is move at the speed of light with expansions. For start at lease San Francisco has approve airport pickup, and Uber is working out things for LAX soon, we'll I hope, but there are talks between them.
> Btw I those hyperlinks have over 100 pages of read, are you a speed read? Just wondering because your reply here was 13 minutes after it posted the links. Now that Holy smokes reading on your part.


Sure. I understand, but we shouldn't have to flip the coin or look under a rock when a driver needs quick essential information that applies to something they will not provide or give direction toward?

lol, I just may be okay at reading 

To me, and me only, this is unacceptable to give the party $500 max - they promote 1M. What do driver's think this covers? I never received anything. How about information or resource of some kind to assist? My questions is, when they talk it over, the country of drivers are still oblivious to the state laws out riding everyday. They aren't insurance litigators, their drivers with you application. And all these risks apply with no information? why?


----------



## DriverJ

UberNewbie99 said:


> I can't find anything, anywhere about this. Scary, I just started doing this. Maybe a huge sting is coming in NYE, LA trying to make some kind of point.


I believe the point is:

You reap what you sew, and it's harvest time.


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## Lidman

Maybe Russell has been lurking in the LA area as of late.


----------



## Desert Driver

Patrick Menzel said:


> Here is my story:
> 
> The AZ ridesharing bill was vetoed, not sure about other states. I'm a snowbird from MN and arrived a few weeks back. My phone was sent back in July 2014 to AZ but never contacted about the risk after a vetoed state bill to operate the device. lol. "Who ya gonna call"?
> 
> After researching (my profession) these ghost busters, the model is nothing more than sneaky tactics to bleed you dry, not having insurance, and watching the public eat more tax pay dollars. Uber's limited liability policy cover's little, and yours nothing. We all will eventually pay for neglected services we are providing ourselves; keep reading about this company.
> 
> Fact: YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIRD PARTY TRANSPORTATION PROVIDERS PROVIDING TRANSPORTATION SERVICES REQUESTED THROUGH UBERX MAY OFFER RIDESHARING OR PEER-TO-PEER TRANSPORTATION SERVICES AND MAY NOT BE PROFESSIONALLY LICENSED OR PERMITTED. IN NO EVENT SHALL UBER'S TOTAL LIABILITY TO YOU IN CONNECTION WITH THE SERVICES FOR ALL DAMAGES, LOSSES AND CAUSES OF ACTION EXCEED FIVE HUNDRED U.S. DOLLARS (US $500).
> Just because the device was on or in route and the have 1M liability, you're SOL! They advertise it so well, but did you read what you excepted. Did you investigate? No. When the publicity with lobbying is over they will **** everyone body and their true business model will shine!
> 
> But I never received anything? - Exactly. Just accept the terms after you upload your photo and sign in. - Uber on!
> 
> I mean sneaky as you won't get insurance information from support of Uber's employees. They won't tell their support? There not going let you call them? It should be obvious by now.
> 
> Next, the rating of 5* is nothing more than a means of letting you go for no reason. What is measured for 5*? They're no SOPs involved like safety, timely, friendly, personable, and overall experience. Uber can't have standard because that would be too much like evaluation (employer) and plus their not a transportation company to start any sort of matrix with how they classify their assets. You're easily dispensable.
> 
> Communication is trust, to me. I've been escalated to the Community Relations Manager to assist with subrogation questions for a week. No phone number or competent support staff to help. The support told me to shop around? I about f**ing lost it. Then when I crafted a good one and haven't heard back. I'm waiting, and I will be waiting. Why? simply, because the support teams doesn't know, or can't tell, and you're waiting awhile they on boarding more drivers. Support can't handle this? It's apparent they're more more concerned with getting everyone on board, then to handle one's questions who are currently driving. - Do the math - are you getting the big picture yet!
> 
> Uber not stating your state's restrictions to the device is fraud, as far I'm concerned. However you're liable, putting other party's liable to Uber's liability coverage and insurance that is not coverage by you. Then when litigation occurs with their policy, after declining yours, their only partially responsible on Uber's liability account. The public pays; the taxpayers. Uber walks. That's exactly who they are. If you are not the slightest bit skeptical, I would do a little more research.
> 
> Any new company will have new hire orientation, not Uber. They do WHATEVER THEY WANT. As this gentleman pointed out, it's in their best interest to hide the insurance company and state regulations applied to their device to all users. - I'm not a lover...
> 
> GET THE FACTS:
> 
> Contact Us
> Home Office:
> James River Insurance Company
> 6641 West Broad Street, Suite 300
> Richmond, VA 23230
> Mail:
> James River Insurance Company
> PO Box 27648
> Richmond, VA 23261-7648
> Main Phone Number: (804) 289-2700
> Fax Numbers:
> Claims Notices - (804) 420-1058
> Loss Runs - (804) 549-5095
> Marketing - (804) 549-5087
> 
> Arizona Office:
> 14648 N. Scottsdale Road, Suite 330
> Scottsdale, AZ 85254
> Phone: (480) 409-4801
> 
> Atlanta Office
> 11175 Cicero Dr. Suite 425
> Alpharetta, GA 30022
> Phone: (470) 223-4020
> 
> It's probably in your best interest to find out what your policy covers and what your risks will be played out (this is your life, not Uber, or James River); It's just a phone call (someone you can talk too, and a local office!) Doesn't matter where you live; call and get the facts!
> 
> Here is their worthless liability coverage, print a copy and your personal insurance for consultation: www.uber.com/legal/usa/terms
> 
> Search google for James River jobs to see had the balls to hire an AZ claims specialist, one month after they veto the bill (when they sent my device); now, don't tell our assets. This is 30 days ago post. Go search their company site to see exact date of post for openings . - Sad, but true; Uber is not good in many ways, especially their business model and principals.
> 
> How does the old saying go on wall Street? "The last one here, be sure to turn off the lights."


The bottom line solution, of course, is not to get into a crash that is your fault.


----------



## Patrick Menzel

Desert Driver said:


> The bottom line solution, of course, is not to get into a crash that is your fault.


Desert Driver: call to get the facts, man. - the liability states it doesn't matter if it your fault, driving, hit and run, passenger is in car, phone app on, etc.; nothing applies to you. "IN NO EVENT SHALL UBER'S TOTAL LIABILITY TO YOU IN CONNECTION WITH THE SERVICES FOR ALL DAMAGES, LOSSES AND CAUSES OF ACTION EXCEED FIVE HUNDRED U.S. DOLLARS (US $500)."


----------



## Desert Driver

Patrick Menzel said:


> Desert Driver: call to get the facts, man. - the liability states it doesn't matter if it your fault, driving, hit and run, passenger is in car, phone app on, etc.; nothing applies to you. "IN NO EVENT SHALL UBER'S TOTAL LIABILITY TO YOU IN CONNECTION WITH THE SERVICES FOR ALL DAMAGES, LOSSES AND CAUSES OF ACTION EXCEED FIVE HUNDRED U.S. DOLLARS (US $500)."


OK, so the only real solution is not to get into any accidents at all. Thank you for clarifying, Pat.


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## DjTim

Desert Driver said:


> OK, so the only real solution is not to get into any accidents at all. Thank you for clarifying, Pat.


Brilliant! I guess I need to stop driving like i'm in GTA.


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## Desert Driver

DjTim said:


> Brilliant! I guess I need to stop driving like i'm in GTA.


Glad I could help!


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## UberBlackDriverLA

Desert Driver said:


> OK, so the only real solution is not to get into any accidents at all. Thank you for clarifying, Pat.


Another possible solution would be obeying the law and getting your commercial vehicle registered commercially and insured commercially.


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## DjTim

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Another possible solution would be obeying the law and getting your commercial vehicle registered commercially and insured commercially.


Or I could just operate the same way I do today and wait to see what my state is going to do with TNC. Which one is going to cost me less?


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## Desert Driver

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Another possible solution would be obeying the law and getting your commercial vehicle registered commercially and insured commercially.


Yeah, but it's not like any UberX drivers are going to go that route. Any other suggestions?


----------



## UberBlackDriverLA

DjTim said:


> Or I could just operate the same way I do today and wait to see what my state is going to do with TNC. Which one is going to cost me less?


It depends if you take Desert drivers advice and avoid getting into an accident.


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## UberHammer

Here is the solution:


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## Desert Driver

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> It depends if you take Desert drivers advice and avoid getting into an accident.


Ya gotta admit, that's some pretty darned good advice.


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## Desert Driver

UberHammer said:


> Here is the solution:


Problem is, if you need to burn rubber, you also end up burning plastic. And everyone hates that smell.


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## DjTim

Desert Driver said:


> Ya gotta admit, that's some pretty darned good advice.


Top Notch! (tips fedora)


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## UberBlackDriverLA

Desert Driver said:


> Yeah, but it's not like any UberX drivers are going to go that route. Any other suggestions?


Actually quite a few UberX drivers have gone that route. I see them in and out of the limo lot at LAX all of the time.


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## Desert Driver

UberBlackDriverLA said:


> Actually quite a few UberX drivers have gone that route. I see them in and out of the limo lot at LAX all of the time.


If only, right?


----------



## UberHammer

Desert Driver said:


> Problem is, if you need to burn rubber, you also end up burning plastic. And everyone hates that smell.


Who can afford to burn rubber at these rates?


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## Desert Driver

UberHammer said:


> Who can afford to burn rubber at these rates?


You make an excellent point. And the truth of the matter is, my Uber car doesn't have enough power to burn rubber.


----------



## Older Chauffeur

Ok, I gotta' admit to watching only the first video, but it looked to me like that could've been a hooker/john scenario like I've seen on Sunset Blvd. many times, with the same results.  Usually the car is towed, but they were probably trying to keep the street clear for the next sucker. Uber sticker on the window? Hey, even that wouldn't stop some guys.....

I have worked in downtown L.A. Since 1971, and the drop off/pick up routine has only gotten worse since LA Live and all the rest of it came along. As someone else mentioned, you can sometimes get away with waiting on the red curb, depending on the cops working the shift. The problem is, the planners never allowed for limos and other chauffeured vehicles bringing people to events in the area. They simply painted all the surrounding curbs red. Unless your clients are willing to either walk a couple of blocks, or pay for prime parking (or tip the valets huge) you the driver are risking a ticket just trying to give good service. I'm sure there are similar areas and problems just about anywhere. Everybody just has to know his own bailiwick. BTW, my clients are smart. They either walk two or three blocks to where I can safely pick them up, or they grease the palm of the valet at Staples Center. Sometimes they will have a pass for a special event. Golden!


----------



## LADriver

ShooUber said:


> There was a sting operation in LA a while back by the LAPD, I think it was @OriginalGeek  posted something about the LAPD sting, not sure, but I posted about it sometime back in September, when another drive said that he would pull-up to a possible waiting ride share person on the street and steal that ride from another driver, that's what he did in his taxi world of driving. Anyway I could be wrong but take a look at the videos again you will see a woman/ undercover cop asking something then never get in the car but looks like she flags the motocop to come over it in both videos the white car has two woman/undercover cops. (The one cop in the same white sweater in both videos) They would come to your window and ask if your are and Uber driver and can you give then a ride, and that they didn't have the Uber app but can pay cash. if the driver says yes then the motocop is call over to arrests him. Long story short it was for Illegal cab hailing, (Sorry for the term but it's use sometime as GypsyCab, again sorry to the true Gypsy people, no offense intended) that was becoming a problem in LA. Uber sends out a weekly newsletter, lol "sometimes". Here what it says, because they know it's been a problem;
> 
> _If someone comes to your car window looking for a ride, the TNC regulations do not allow you to provide one. Instead, you can advise them to use the Uber app to request a ride with you. Using the Uber Partner app for your trips allows us to make fare adjustments for you, and connect you with your rider if they leave items in your car._


Yes, you got it right. It's for illegal fare hailing. This happened to me as a limo driver in Hollywood about 5 years ago. A sweaty, panicked man started waving at me while standing next to a car being towed. I pulled over because I thought he was in trouble. He then asked me in a hurried, excited way, "Can you give me a ride to Wilshire and La Brea?!"

I shrugged my shoulders and said, "Sure, $20." Even though I had just gotten paid and had $200 cash in my pocket. I didn't need the money. I though I was doing this "guy" a favor. Sure enough he gets into my stretch and pulls his badge from the backseat while a second DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION officer (LADOT not LAPD) puts his badge into my side-view mirror. Long story short. They felt sorry for me and never filed the ticket with the court so I dodged a bullet.

During a regular arrest, the LAPD doesn't drive your car away, they have it towed away as an impound. I watch this procedure on a weekly basis in Hollywood. Most likely they cited the drivers in a secure lot (away from video cameras) and they got their cars back. I got my company limo back right after the stop.

By the way, I clearly post the UBER logo in both my side windows as well as in the front to help passengers find me in a crowd. UBER is legal in the State of California. Illegal fare hails are not whether you're UBER or some *********.


----------



## Desert Driver

I had a situation happen to me during the holidays that could have gotten me in trouble, but I kind of knew what to do even though it was the first time for something like this for me. I accepted a ping to an eatery in downtown. I got there and hit ARRIVE. Then a guy comes out of the joint, spots me on the street, approaches y open window and asks, "You waiting for a fare?" I said I was and he jumped into the backseat. Then the conversation went like this...

DD: Did you request a ride on the Uber app, sir?
Pax: What's an Uber app?
DD: OK...strike one. Did you request a ride on the Lyft app?
Pax: Huh?
DD: OK...strike two. I'm looking for a rider by the name of Jason. Are you Jason?
Pax: No. I'm Steve. How much to go to Zipp's Sports Bar?
DD: That's strike three, sir. Now I must respectfully request that you get the phuque out of my car.
Pax: You mean you're not a *********?
DD: Not even close. Have a good evening, sir.


----------



## The Kid

ShooUber said:


> There was a sting operation in LA a while back by the LAPD, I think it was @OriginalGeek  posted something about the LAPD sting, not sure, but I posted about it sometime back in September, when another drive said that he would pull-up to a possible waiting ride share person on the street and steal that ride from another driver, that's what he did in his taxi world of driving. Anyway I could be wrong but take a look at the videos again you will see a woman/ undercover cop asking something then never get in the car but looks like she flags the motocop to come over it in both videos the white car has two woman/undercover cops. (The one cop in the same white sweater in both videos) They would come to your window and ask if your are and Uber driver and can you give then a ride, and that they didn't have the Uber app but can pay cash. if the driver says yes then the motocop is call over to arrests him. Long story short it was for Illegal cab hailing, (Sorry for the term but it's use sometime as GypsyCab, again sorry to the true Gypsy people, no offense intended) that was becoming a problem in LA. Uber sends out a weekly newsletter, lol "sometimes". Here what it says, because they know it's been a problem;
> 
> _If someone comes to your car window looking for a ride, the TNC regulations do not allow you to provide one. Instead, you can advise them to use the Uber app to request a ride with you. Using the Uber Partner app for your trips allows us to make fare adjustments for you, and connect you with your rider if they leave items in your car._


May have tried to get me twice on NYE. Got a ping to pick up someone at a bar. When I pulled up a woman was loudly complaining about waiting 45 min for her Uber. Then she walked to my window gave me a sad face and asked me if I could please, please, please give her a ride for cash. I said No, here to pickup someone. Got a ping for same bar an hour latter. Same women still complaining about waiting for Uber. She came up to my window to ask something. Must have recognized me and walked away.

Thought is was strange. Who waits 45 min for an Uber when there were 10 cars on every corner that night.


----------



## cybertec69

Uberzilla said:


> LAX Cop Harassing My Uber Driver:


He is not harassing him he is giving him the facts, go legit or quit.


----------



## UberNewbie99

cybertec69 said:


> He is not harassing him he is giving him the facts, go legit or quit.


Go Legit or quit. Or just keep going like everyone else.


----------



## DriverJ

Desert Driver said:


> Yeah, I agree. It looks like bullshit. If you're not doing anything illegal, then no reason for concern. I'm having a great season so far - $3000 in five weeks of driving. And that's just driving a few hours at night and then long shifts on weekend nights. What's not to like, right?


Did they cut the rates where you're at?


----------



## Desert Driver

DriverJ said:


> Did they cut the rates where you're at?


Not yet. But we're heading into our busy tourist season here.


----------



## Badbeat

Sydney Uber said:


> If its breaking the law, then there are agencies that are bound to enforce the law. Uber have been happy for their drivers to take all the risks. Taking advantage of people just wanting a job and telling them all is OK because they are a "Technology Company".
> 
> Is that starting to sound flimsy to everyone? Will we just understand the chances Uber have been given in so many jurisdictions to become legitimate and legal and be part of the "Transportation Industry".
> 
> So these requirements WILL cut into UBER profits, increasing operating costs lowering their ridiculous valuations. So what? *Business has to conform with the law or else they get shut down.*


At one point in America, there were laws on how to treat your slaves!

Laws are created by a public need, and can be altered by the same!


----------



## Desert Driver

Badbeat said:


> At one point in America, there were laws on how to treat your slaves!
> 
> Laws are created by a public need, and can be altered by the same!


Not always true. Laws are just as often created as a revenue generation vehicle that serves no public need other than to raise revenue.


----------

