# Mileage from start and finish?



## LUXYRIDE (Jul 5, 2014)

Hi, Everyone:

I have been recording my mileage whenever I do a trip (when the customer is in the car). However, I do not record the mileage from home to my first ride or from last ride back to home?

Do you claim this mileage? If not, I don't want to waste my time recording it.

Open to your responses.

Thanks!

Luxi
Providence


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## Nick Manning (May 3, 2014)

I would record this mileage because it pertains to your work. Especially the miles to your first trip.


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## Just Some Guy (Jun 10, 2014)

Any time you're "online", you're working in my opinion.


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## Oc_DriverX (Apr 29, 2014)

I record the mileage when I get in the car and when I get out. If all I did was Uber, then all the miles were attributable to working. If you don't you are understating your costs, which hurts in two ways. One, you will end up paying more in taxes. Two, you will overestimating how much money you are making.


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## LookyLou (Apr 28, 2014)

Oc_DriverX said:


> I record the mileage when I get in the car and when I get out. If all I did was Uber, then all the miles were attributable to working. If you don't you are understating your costs, which hurts in two ways. One, you will end up paying more in taxes. Two, you will overestimating how much money you are making.


Bingo.

You are working for yourself. This is your business and you are working for yourself. All mileage is deductible and all time spent is accountable for figuring what you are making per hour.

The other day I saw someone saying "commuter mileage is not deductible". This is true, but we are not commuting, we are working for ourselves in our own business from the time we get in the car until the time we get out of the car.


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## uberx2015 (Jul 2, 2014)

I drive 150 miles with uber clients and end up with an extra 150 miles going back and forth, I live in short hills nj,

300 maybe 400 miles a day which equates to over 10,000 miles a month, yes I am shocked to, I can't wait to work in NYC and drive for ubersuv, but I am sitting on the sidelines until winter, by that time the Lyft, Uber issues, surge pricing should all be worked out, I am going to play hero for either of them,

years ago it was a $1-$1.50 a mile, now there are to many drivers in NJ so now I book $1-$1.50 a mile but average 30 to 50 cents a mile net net and work 3 times longer


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## Walkersm (Apr 15, 2014)

If you only want to claim the miles a customer is in the car Uber will actually provide that for you but that will only be about 50% of your total miles you travel. Just do a log with the start of shift mileage an the end of shift and claim it all. Start when you leave your house if you go on-line and and end it when you go offline. You could really claim the miles home as well the IRS would be none the wiser. They will just be impressed you actually have a mileage log.


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## kalo (Jun 28, 2014)

LookyLou said:


> The other day I saw someone saying "commuter mileage is not deductible". This is true, but we are not commuting, we are working for ourselves in our own business from the time we get in the car until the time we get out of the car.


 When the app is off, who is providing your insurance? Personal insurance? or Uber? If it is personal insurance (which it is) then one is commuting to work. Mileage might (likely) not be deductible. If one leaves the app open the entire time from leaving home until returning, obviously all mileage is deductible. Uber could give us the mileage while the app is on... I wonder if at some point insurance companies might subpoena Uber for this type of thing after accidents... I imagine so..


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## Just Some Guy (Jun 10, 2014)

Walkersm said:


> Just do a log with the start of shift mileage an the end of shift and claim it all. Start when you leave your house if you go on-line and and end it when you go offline. You could really claim the miles home as well the IRS would be none the wiser. They will just be impressed you actually have a mileage log.


I use an app called Expensify, it takes pictures of receipts for business expenses (fuel, car wash, etc), and calculates mileage. It also uploads it all to their website (as well as storing on your phone) for easy printing.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.me.mobiexpensifyg&hl=en


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## LookyLou (Apr 28, 2014)

kalo said:


> When the app is off, who is providing your insurance? Personal insurance? or Uber? If it is personal insurance (which it is) then one is commuting to work. Mileage might (likely) not be deductible. If one leaves the app open the entire time from leaving home until returning, obviously all mileage is deductible. Uber could give us the mileage while the app is on... I wonder if at some point insurance companies might subpoena Uber for this type of thing after accidents... I imagine so..


We are working for ourselves and no one else. We are working from the time we start to the time we finish. We are not commuting to anywhere for a job working for anyone else. We do not work for Uber, Lyft or Sidecar. They just provide us with leads for our own business.

Our own personal insurance is primary 100% of the time we are driving period. Uber, Lyft and Sidecar are never providing primary coverage at any time, with or without a passenger. Those companies policies are secondary and only come into play if our personal insurance denies a claim. The insurance situation has nothing to do with whether we are working in our business or commuting.


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## kalo (Jun 28, 2014)

LookyLou said:


> We are working for ourselves and no one else. We are working from the time we start to the time we finish. We are not commuting to anywhere for a job working for anyone else. We do not work for Uber, Lyft or Sidecar. They just provide us with leads for our own business.
> 
> Our own personal insurance is primary 100% of the time we are driving period. Uber, Lyft and Sidecar are never providing primary coverage at any time, with or without a passenger. Those companies policies are secondary and only come into play if our personal insurance denies a claim. The insurance situation has nothing to do with whether we are working in our business or commuting.


Ok.. I'm not an expert on this and the laws may change some to reflect ride sharing. But... If you are deducting all your miles for taxes, then you are operating a business 100% of the time while driving those miles. Operating a business requires commercial insurance. Uber and you may want your personal insurance to be primary, but you would be committing fraud if you make a claim on your personal insurance while operating a business. Uber is a multi-billion dollar company because of this type of insurance game. MOST drivers have a HUGE liability problem if they are in any type of significant accident. Most drivers are turning a blind eye or clueless about it.

Ubers insurance is primary any time the app is on or a rider is in the car. $100,000 per accident while the app is on with no passenger. Is that enough to take care of serious injury to passengers in the car an uber driver hits? Likely not.. $25,000 for property damage. Is $25k enough if you plow in to the back of a Tesla? You will pay to fix your own car. YOUR insurance (unless you have commercial) will not cover you because you are operating a business. So its YOUR assets that will be subject.

http://blog.uber.com/uberXridesharinginsurance


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## Oc_DriverX (Apr 29, 2014)

kalo said:


> Ok.. I'm not an expert on this and the laws may change some to reflect ride sharing. But... If you are deducting all your miles for taxes, then you are operating a business 100% of the time while driving those miles. Operating a business requires commercial insurance. Uber and you may want your personal insurance to be primary, but you would be committing fraud if you make a claim on your personal insurance while operating a business. Uber is a multi-billion dollar company because of this type of insurance game. MOST drivers have a HUGE liability problem if they are in any type of significant accident. Most drivers are turning a blind eye or clueless about it.
> 
> Ubers insurance is primary any time the app is on or a rider is in the car. $100,000 per accident while the app is on with no passenger. Is that enough to take care of serious injury to passengers in the car an uber driver hits? Likely not.. $25,000 for property damage. Is $25k enough if you plow in to the back of a Tesla? You will pay to fix your own car. YOUR insurance (unless you have commercial) will not cover you because you are operating a business. So its YOUR assets that will be subject.
> 
> http://blog.uber.com/uberXridesharinginsurance


I am not a tax lawyer, but ........:

I don't think that the IRS is concerned with whether you are properly insured (or insured at all) or whether is it commercial insurance or not. Your insurance company and the state Public Utility Commission may care. Commuting is when you travel to your W-2 type job. Since our personal (non W-2) business is driving, then the miles we put on the car in that pursuit are legitimate business miles.

I believe you are severely mistaken about Uber's insurance. Everything I have read and in fact one of the problems with Uber's insurance in most people's eyes is that the insurance is secondary to your own personal policy. As a matter of practicality, it is true that it is likely that your personal insurance company will likely decline to cover an accident that happens while you are with a customer. At that point the Uber policy would then kick in. But, that does not make the Uber policy primary insurance. In fact, Uber is fighting hard to keep from having to provide primary insurance.


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## kalo (Jun 28, 2014)

Oc_DriverX said:


> I am not a tax lawyer, but ........:
> 
> I don't think that the IRS is concerned with whether you are properly insured (or insured at all) or whether is it commercial insurance or not. Your insurance company and the state Public Utility Commission may care. Commuting is when you travel to your W-2 type job. Since our personal (non W-2) business is driving, then the miles we put on the car in that pursuit are legitimate business miles.
> 
> I believe you are severely mistaken about Uber's insurance. Everything I have read and in fact one of the problems with Uber's insurance in most people's eyes is that the insurance is secondary to your own personal policy. As a matter of practicality, it is true that it is likely that your personal insurance company will likely decline to cover an accident that happens while you are with a customer. At that point the Uber policy would then kick in. But, that does not make the Uber policy primary insurance. In fact, Uber is fighting hard to keep from having to provide primary insurance.


Of course the IRS is not concerned about your insurance. I know that.. 

Ubers insurance for UberX in reality is is PRIMARY, because you are conducting a business and personal insurance WILL NOT be good.. UNLESS you lie and commit FRAUD. Uber tries to say it is Secondary so you will LIE.. And if you don't LIE, you will likely be fired for the accident when you tell Uber about it... 

So.. when you are driving with the app off, but claim the miles and report it to the IRS, the same applies. If you report an accident as driving for personal reasons, when you maybe have last year wrote off those miles. That is FRAUD too. How can you say to the IRS they are business miles, but say to your insurance they are not? Look up some of the penalties for insurance fraud.

Those with NO assets to lose don't need to worry so much. Nothing to lose.. But that is why the legislature want's to require Uber to have higher insurance for when the app on but no riders. Because it knows most of the drivers don't have commercial insurance (UberX), personal insurance will not be good and the burden of those severely injured in an accident will fall on the taxpayers.. The inadequately insured driver will suffer some pain in court though I imagine.


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## Oc_DriverX (Apr 29, 2014)

I understand and agree with the points that you are raising about the insurance risks involved with driving for UberX. You may feel that in practicality that the Uber insurance is primary. But, legally it is secondary. The first thing that the Uber insurance will ask if you go to make a claim against it is if you have claimed against your own primary insurance. If, and only if, the driver's primary insurance has denied or maxed out their coverage will the Uber insurance kick in.


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## kalo (Jun 28, 2014)

Oc_DriverX said:


> I understand and agree with the points that you are raising about the insurance risks involved with driving for UberX. You may feel that in practicality that the Uber insurance is primary. But, legally it is secondary. The first thing that the Uber insurance will ask if you go to make a claim against it is if you have claimed against your own primary insurance. If, and only if, the driver's primary insurance has denied or maxed out their coverage will the Uber insurance kick in.


What Law?? This is Uber's idea to try to go through your insurance first. If you ever file a claim for insurance. They will do an interview in person, or on a recorded line. The person interviewing asks many questions, one of which is if you were using your car for business or commercial use. As an Uber driver, you will say yes.. for business.. right? 

My main point was that if you are writing off the miles when the app is OFF, you are using using your car for business too.


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

What an UNNECESSARY mess!


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## kalo (Jun 28, 2014)

Sydney Uber said:


> What an UNNECESSARY mess!


For sure.. It will come to a head at some point. Probably with the next major accident when an uber, lyft, sidecar driver is distracted. I heard some banter that the insurance companies may be looking at offering a new product for those driving for rideshare companies. Hope so.


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## LuLu (Jun 27, 2014)

kalo said:


> What Law?? This is Uber's idea to try to go through your insurance first. If you ever file a claim for insurance. They will do an interview in person, or on a recorded line. The person interviewing asks many questions, one of which is if you were using your car for business or commercial use. As an Uber driver, you will say yes.. for business.. right?
> 
> My main point was that if you are writing off the miles when the app is OFF, you are using using your car for business too.


Absolutely add those miles! Ive been in sales for a long time now and going to an appointment is work miles....even San Diego to meeting in Vegas. In my experience, my accountant roughly averages personal use, roughly 10-15 per cent. Write off everything possible, get creative, have someone with a outside sales ( road warrior ) back ground help.


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## kalo (Jun 28, 2014)

LuLu said:


> Absolutely add those miles! Ive been in sales for a long time now and going to an appointment is work miles....even San Diego to meeting in Vegas. In my experience, my accountant roughly averages personal use, roughly 10-15 per cent. Write off everything possible, get creative, have someone with a outside sales ( road warrior ) back ground help.


Do you have commercial insurance on your UberX car Lulu?


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## LuLu (Jun 27, 2014)

kalo said:


> Do you have commercial insurance on your UberX car Lulu?


No, very scary. My Ins.Co knows I put a lot of miles due to sales job, but don't know about Uber. Hopefully settle with Lyft this week. They seem to have a more driver friendly Ins.coverage. Hopefully it will kick Uber into a driver friendly version also.....


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## Jeeves (Apr 10, 2014)

The concern for insurance issues relating to UberX is very high. A lot of threads, like this, start about one thing and become insurance related. Perhaps insurance needs its own forum on the main page?


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## kalo (Jun 28, 2014)

LuLu said:


> No, very scary. My Ins.Co knows I put a lot of miles due to sales job, but don't know about Uber. Hopefully settle with Lyft this week. They seem to have a more driver friendly Ins.coverage. Hopefully it will kick Uber into a driver friendly version also.....


Scary is right. Uber is parlaying this lack of proper insurance for drivers to grow it's business. It does seem like things are going in the direction of requiring some sort of commercial insurance from the drivers or requiring uber/lyft to have it. The Public (and taxpayer) is at risk with the current system. Drivers assets are completely at risk, and one can see that many Uber drivers live paycheck to paycheck from the other recent thread. Those drivers don't have assets to pay out. Flawed system for the public.


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## Oc_DriverX (Apr 29, 2014)

The question is: will an insurance company come up with a policy that can price (and measure) the risk of a TNC driver's car while logged in to a TNC. Unlike commercial coverage it would not need to be 24/7, but the insurance company would need a way to validate how many hours/miles the coverage is in force. To be honest, it seems like something that Uber would have the ability to do in house, given what a great "technology company" they are.


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## Moofish (Jun 13, 2014)

With the current rates of UberX, if we had to pay a larger amount for insurance than we currently do, would it be worth it for part-time UberXers? Anyone have commercial insurance and drive UberX exclusively?


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## kalo (Jun 28, 2014)

Oc_DriverX said:


> The question is: will an insurance company come up with a policy that can price (and measure) the risk of a TNC driver's car while logged in to a TNC. Unlike commercial coverage it would not need to be 24/7, but the insurance company would need a way to validate how many hours/miles the coverage is in force. To be honest, it seems like something that Uber would have the ability to do in house, given what a great "technology company" they are.


There is a new company offering insurance by the mile. A device with wireless data plugs in to your OBDII port. Transmits mileage data from your auto. This might work for personal miles with TNC miles sent over from uber/lyft.. Different rates for personal, app on, and with rider. Uber pays some for when the app is on. Driver pays the rest. Driver can choose to what level the insurance is for personal and app on (no rider) coverage if wanted above uber's 50k/100k. Might be the right type of idea for the future.


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## kalo (Jun 28, 2014)

Oc_DriverX said:


> I understand and agree with the points that you are raising about the insurance risks involved with driving for UberX. You may feel that in practicality that the Uber insurance is primary. But, legally it is secondary. The first thing that the Uber insurance will ask if you go to make a claim against it is if you have claimed against your own primary insurance. If, and only if, the driver's primary insurance has denied or maxed out their coverage will the Uber insurance kick in.


Case closed. 

7.22.2014
Uber is committed to connecting riders and drivers to one of the safest rides on the road. We have always carried protection that exceeds rideshare, limo and taxi standards while rideshare drivers are on Uber trips. We're excited to announce a few updates to provide you with more peace of mind and improve your claims experience (in the unfortunate event of an accident). The policy updates for all ridesharing drivers include:


Coverage while on an Uber trip is now expressly primary - *Updated*
Claims process is streamlined - *Updated*
Coverages and limits remain the same
*HOW HAS THE COVERAGE BEEN UPDATED?*


From the moment you accept a trip to its conclusion, the coverage provided to rideshare partners is primary to your personal auto policy. (However it will not take precedence over any commercial auto insurance you may have for the vehicle).
If you have comprehensive and collision coverage for your vehicle on your personal auto policy, you are covered for comprehensive and collision by simply providing evidence that this coverage was in place at the time of the accident. Our insurer will no longer require you to make a claim on your personal auto insurance in order to get this coverage. This helps you get back on the road faster. 
*DO I STILL NEED TO CARRY MY OWN PERSONAL INSURANCE?*


Yes. Valid personal auto insurance is required by state law to be on the road and we require it too. 
If you want coverage for damage to your vehicle, consider purchasing collision and comprehensive coverage to protect you in the event of an incident; our contingent coverage only applies if you have purchased this on your personal policy. 
If there's an incident that your personal insurance refuses to cover while you are not on a trip, our contingent coverage for when you are logged on and available in the Uber Driver App will provide drivers with liability protection for bodily injury up to $50,000/individual/accident with a total of $100,000/accident and liability protection for property damage up to $25,000.
*WHAT DO I DO IF I AM IN AN ACCIDENT?*


As soon as it is safe to do so, contact your local Uber office. 
Complete the incident report form that we provide.
You will be provided with a claim number and an adjuster will contact you on behalf of our insurer to resolve the claim.
If an accident occurs while on a trip, we will not require you to contact your personal auto insurer to make a claim. However we recommend that you still report the accident if your personal insurer requires that. 
*REMIND ME, WHAT COVERAGES ARE AVAILABLE WHILE ON A TRIP? *


$1MM of third party liability insurance covering property damage and bodily injury to others
$1MM of uninsured / underinsured motorist bodily injury coverage
$50,000 of contingent comprehensive and collision with a $1,000 deductible for damage to your vehicle (you must carry collision insurance on your personal auto policy to get this coverage)


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