# curious: would you donate $1/mo for a lobbyist to represent you to Uber & lawmakers?



## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm Curious...
Since Uber drivers really have no practical way of 'organizing' or exhibiting any real meaningful communication to regulators, lawmakers or Uber,
*would it make sense for drivers to collectively hire a real lobbying firm to represent our interests?*

There are over 1 million drivers in the US...
Would you donate *$1 a month* to fund a professional lobbying/marketing effort to voice the concerns of Uber drivers?

If only 50% of registered Uber and Lyft drives participated, it would be enough money to hire a powerful 'k' street lobbying firm. Maybe even enough to hire someone like David Plouffe away from uber - hehe.

Thoughts?
Please cast a vote.
If you vote 'no', please comment on why you wouldn't.

Thanks!


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## UberMeansSuper (Aug 3, 2015)

$1 a month for my own politician, hell yes!!


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

I voted no because I'd rather have a national rideshare driver's organization first. I think NYC has one, and maybe Cali. And hell no to Abe Hussein running it.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

I voted 'yes'... I would consider it a 'safe DRIVER fee' hehe.
I mean, $1/mo? If the average earnings per driver is only $100/wk, that's only 1/4 of 1% of earnings to be have a voice on our side!
And for those of us who consistently generate $250/wk or more... it's less than pocket change.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Old Rocker said:


> I voted no because I'd rather have a national rideshare driver's organization first.


That doesn't make any sense.
It's not an 'either/or' proposition.
In fact, getting drivers to subscribe to a lobbying effort would be the first step towards putting together a national driver organization.


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

I do like the idea, but who would provide guidance to the lobbyist?

Edit to add... yes, I know I don't always make sense. Much of what I post is to promote thoughtful discussion and I have no compunctions against playing devil's advocate in order to draw out the complexities of an issue.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Old Rocker said:


> I do like the idea, but who would provide guidance to the lobbyist?


That's putting the cart way before the horse.
But I can't imagine that a professional lobbying firm would not be able to figure out how to survey a relevant sample of drivers to understand our varied concerns (including the concerns of those who want to be Independent Contractors - and those who want to be employees).


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## Luberon (Nov 24, 2014)

There is one major, so far r in surmountable barrier to drivers organizing - communication. If only some white hat hacker can get those 250,000 driver email addresses and phones off uber servers....


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Luberon said:


> There is one major, so far r in surmountable barrier to drivers organizing - communication. If only some white hat hacker can get those 250,000 driver email addresses and phones off uber servers....


And that's kind of what I had in mind with the $1/mo contribution/participation.
It would give an advocacy group the ability to create a membership 'list' and communicate with the members.

A quarter million $/mo ($6mil/yr) can buy a lot of communication.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> A quarter million $/mo ($6mil/yr) can buy a lot of communication.


...or one 30 second TV spot during the super bowl.


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## UberXTampa (Nov 20, 2014)

I


Luberon said:


> There is one major, so far r in surmountable barrier to drivers organizing - communication. If only some white hat hacker can get those 250,000 driver email addresses and phones off uber servers....


 would pay a hacker to get these name and numbers


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I'm Curious...
> Since Uber drivers really have no practical way of 'organizing' or exhibiting any real meaningful communication to regulators, lawmakers or Uber,
> *would it make sense for drivers to collectively hire a real lobbying firm to represent our interests?*
> 
> ...


Aren't you cute! A tiny amount of money to defeat a multi-billion dollar corporation on their turf!

Funny and sweet. No, if we all gave $1 a RIDE we would have different masters and the same income.

There is one way to beat Uber if you so choose, turn off the app. You are a loser if you don't agree with the deal and keep taking it. Turn it off.

I like Uber, I don't need the Government. If they go cheap here, I will quit doing it. Pretty simple.

What is wrong with you people? If you don't like the deal, DON'T take it. Get the **** out of everyone's business. If you can pay more to drivers and beat Uber, do it damn it! Don't be cowards and posers pretending if we pay YOU it will get better, make it happen!

Cabbies pay unions and they still suck and they are getting their asses kicked nationwide!


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## KGB7 (Apr 23, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Aren't you cute! A tiny amount of money to defeat a multi-billion dollar corporation on their turf!
> 
> Funny and sweet. No, if we all gave $1 a RIDE we would have different masters and the same income.
> 
> ...


$1 a month, not from each ride.

Not trying to defeat Uber, but to have a stronger foot to stand on, so Uber doesn't steam roll its drivers at a push of a button.

I'll pay $5 a month to make double of what I make now. And there is no strings attached.


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## Luberon (Nov 24, 2014)

We spend $$$ on water, mints, chargers and whatnot in anticipation of a 5* rating that we may or may not get but complain about 12$ a year


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## itsablackmarket (May 12, 2015)

of course, I'm not a dumbass.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Luberon said:


> We spend $$$ on water, mints, chargers and whatnot in anticipation of a 5* rating that we may or may not get but complain about 12$ a year


Well, this pretty much tells us why Uber and Lyft can get away with absolutely anything they want (much like the government):
Of the 138 members here who have viewed this thread, only 21 have bothered to cast a 'vote' - and of those, only 15 have voted 'yes'.
Uber/Lyft drivers are their own worst enemies.

And there are people here who think that having a few drivers in each city 'strike' this weekend is going to have an impact?

Ha ha ha


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## Ub-urs (Mar 5, 2015)

no, Uber does not negotiate. They're a rogue entity.


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

Luberon said:


> There is one major, so far r in surmountable barrier to drivers organizing - communication. If only some white hat hacker can get those 250,000 driver email addresses and phones off uber servers....


Which would be illegal and anyone using the list would be violating the law. There's some new news that Uber tried to hack Lyft.

Let's be better than Uber, not stoop to their level.


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

Ub-urs said:


> no, Uber does not negotiate. They're a rogue entity.


I think it was in New York where Uber said they'd be happy to meet with individual drivers to discuss grievances, but not with a union.


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## rocksteady (Mar 19, 2015)

To the intelligent 26% of people who have voted no, I'll trade you 500 pennies for only 100 dimes! Just PM me!


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## Old Rocker (Aug 20, 2015)

Now, now, everyone's opinion is valid. (unless you are an Uber partner).


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Ub-urs said:


> no, Uber does not negotiate. They're a rogue entity.


It's not only about communicating with Uber - it's about drivers concerns being represented to authorities, law makers, the press and the public.


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## Einstein (Oct 10, 2015)

Luberon said:


> There is one major, so far r in surmountable barrier to drivers organizing - communication. If only some white hat hacker can get those 250,000 driver email addresses and phones off uber servers....


The Russians and the Chinese have probably already done it.


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## SECOTIME (Sep 18, 2015)

Yea if Uber does it it's publicity. If you the driver does it, omg arrest him.


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## Ub-urs (Mar 5, 2015)

Old Rocker said:


> I think it was in New York where Uber said they'd be happy to meet with individual drivers to discuss grievances, but not with a union.


I am sure plenty of folks would have taken them up on their offer....did they say when and where they are willing to have these discussions?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Old Rocker said:


> I think it was in New York where Uber said they'd be happy to meet with individual drivers to discuss grievances, but not with a union.


doesn't Uber do that in every market with "office hours"?

I don't think that's a substitute for having a professional marketing and lobbying firm represent the interests of a workforce of over one million people.


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## Fuzzyelvis (Dec 7, 2014)

Luberon said:


> We spend $$$ on water, mints, chargers and whatnot in anticipation of a 5* rating that we may or may not get but complain about 12$ a year


I don't spend money on any of that. And I'd pay more than $12 for some lobbying.


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## pizza guy (Jul 23, 2015)

This is actually a really smart idea. Many of the ideas I've seen to help drivers are not well thought out and fueled by anger. This is the kind of positive idea that could help drivers and with the side benefit of helping Uber. The one problem I may see is that the real work may need to take place in state houses and city halls, not Congress. I'm more than happy to help with this effort.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

pizza guy said:


> This is actually a really smart idea. Many of the ideas I've seen to help drivers are not well thought out and fueled by anger. This is the kind of positive idea that could help drivers and with the side benefit of helping Uber. The one problem I may see is that the real work may need to take place in state houses and city halls, not Congress. I'm more than happy to help with this effort.


You've just become my 'today's most favorite forum member'.
May the rideshare gods spread their countenance upon you, and bring you all manner of success.


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## MiddleClassedOut (Jun 11, 2015)

I like the idea.

But a union/trade association needs to come first. The taxi industry has theirs. Even common motorists have their own - AAA. AAA actually does a lot of lobbying with regard to highway spending. An association could help negotiate better insurance for instance - members could get the gap insurance we need cheaper.

Wouldn't it be nice to get AAA on our side? It should be so easy to organize with the Internet these days, but none of us seem to have the experience. What we really need is for a union to step in and help us set-up.

I would seriously be interested in helping with this. Here's what I see we need to do:

1) Get a lawyer to draw up a non-profit association charter. A shyster who would do this pro-bono would be great. If not, we could set up a crowdfunding site with one of the site's more trustworthy members.
2) Set up a membership drive. We'd need money to get the lobbyists/PR firm.
3) Then start talking to insurance companies about possible discounts we could get once a sufficient number of members are involved. Companies love volume, and with an association we could probably get a lot of other discounts/benefits for members.
4) Go the hell after Uber and decide what we as drivers want as far as national regulations/pay/benefits are concerned. As independent contractors this doesn't mean a union-shop, in fact, it can't. We would have a purely professional association like the AMA, contractor's and accountant's associations and so on. If it's a job in the United States, there's probably a professional association for it. 

The benefits to an association rather than a union are many - especially for those of us who like and enjoy independent contractor status.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

MiddleClassedOut said:


> I like the idea. But a union/trade association needs to come first.


It doesn't need to come first. 
They are two different things - not mutually exclusive.

Engaging a lobbying group and marketing firm is much easier than organizing drivers into an association - 
and doing so would provide the lobbying group with the individual driver contact information needed to then start a trade association group.


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## MiddleClassedOut (Jun 11, 2015)

Yes, it's possible. But without an association with voting members, it wouldn't be very democratic would it? 

Who and how would we control what a lobbying firm actually does? I think there are a few things we all agree on (tips, higher rates) but having an association with a formal structure, would be seen as more legitimate in the eyes of both any PR firm we hired and more importantly, the media and government.

In any case, an individual or group of individuals who hired a firm would be on the hook for the bills. With a non-profit association doing the actual hiring, everyone's credit and bank account is protected. That's why you set up LLCs, and such even for a home business. It's how you keep your house when your business goes south!


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## Marine grunt (Sep 30, 2015)

The moment all of you drivers collectively see how bad UBER is ripping you, and all of the drivers get their S&&&it together to organize against Uber .. The better your conditions will be.

It involves reaching out to an established LAW FIRM that handles labor law. Having that law firm subpoena the entire list of drivers in the USA. Then an annual fee, paid by each member, to subsidize three major actions ..

An organized class action lawsuit against UBER. Drivers recover expenses.
A collective increase in fees charged by drivers, not uber. Uber will have to adjust their rates up.
A union organized for the drivers, mandatory membership.

In doing this you will bring UBER to its knees. Only then will things improve.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

MiddleClassedOut said:


> Yes, it's possible. But without an association with voting members, it wouldn't be very democratic would it?
> 
> Who and how would we control what a lobbying firm actually does? I think there are a few things we all agree on (tips, higher rates) but having an association with a formal structure, would be seen as more legitimate in the eyes of both any PR firm we hired and more importantly, the media and government.
> 
> In any case, an individual or group of individuals who hired a firm would be on the hook for the bills. With a non-profit association doing the actual hiring, everyone's credit and bank account is protected. That's why you set up LLCs, and such even for a home business. It's how you keep your house when your business goes south!


But to start an association you have to have members contact info.
That's not going to happen quickly or easily.
And based on what I've witnessed here as far as driver's understanding of financial, insurance and regulatory issues, I'm not sure that a democratic organization is what's called for - at least not in lieu of professional representation. I mean, I'd join... but I don't what purpose it would serve OTHER than to hire a marketing and/or lobbying firm. I don't need another 'social' group.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Marine grunt said:


> The moment all of you drivers collectively see how bad UBER is ripping you, and all of the drivers get their S&&&it together to organize ...


You can stop right there.
Drivers are not a monolithic group with all of the same concerns, needs or situations.


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## MiddleClassedOut (Jun 11, 2015)

Doctors and accountants don't all have exactly the same concerns either.

But there are definitely things they can all agree on - and their associations work for those causes. There are more pluses than minuses.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

MiddleClassedOut said:


> Doctors and accountants don't all have exactly the same concerns either.
> But there are definitely things they can all agree on - and their associations work for those causes. There are more pluses than minuses.


How many doctors and accountants do you know who have full-time jobs doing something else and only 'practice' when they feel like it or need the extra cash while in-between jobs? 

I don't disagree with you... but a trade association doesn't happen out of thin air.
As I said, getting a trade association up and running is a great goal - but not mutually exclusive of a lobbying and marketing effort on behalf of drivers... and can be the organizing means by which a trade association can be started.


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## pizza guy (Jul 23, 2015)

I agree a trade association is a great idea but it requires somebody taking a leap of faith to get things going in each market.


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## Luberon (Nov 24, 2014)

Best idea I've read: get a labor law firm to subpoena uber records. Meanwhile drivers organize at grassroots city level.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Luberon said:


> Best idea I've read: get a labor law firm to subpoena uber records. Meanwhile drivers organize at grassroots city level.


uh-oh... two 'favorite UPN members of the day'.


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## Uber 1 (Oct 6, 2015)

Luberon said:


> There is one major, so far r in surmountable barrier to drivers organizing - communication. If only some white hat hacker can get those 250,000 driver email addresses and phones off uber servers....


I don't care what color hat he wears we just need the list! ;-)

Andy - Charter Member of TURD (Team of Uber and Ride share Drivers) as seen in https://uberpeople.net/threads/strike-plan-step-by-step-must-read-for-those-who-want-more.40979/)...


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

<shrug> You're never going to be able to herd cats.


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## Lag Monkey (Feb 6, 2015)

Ok bring us a lobbying firm and a price and will make it happen


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## stuber (Jun 30, 2014)

If I had a secure and verified list of 250,000 drivers willing to drop UBER, then I'd take it to the venture capitalists and start up a competing service. Having the drivers is really the only thing that could defeat UBER.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

Lag Monkey said:


> Ok bring us a lobbying firm and a price and will make it happen


Based on the response to my poll here I can't imagine that any firm would be even remotely interested.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

stuber said:


> If I had a secure and verified list of 250,000 drivers willing to drop UBER, then I'd take it to the venture capitalists and start up a competing service. Having the drivers is really the only thing that could defeat UBER.


hehe... you mean like LYFT or SIDECAR?


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## Uber 1 (Oct 6, 2015)

stuber said:


> If I had a secure and verified list of 250,000 drivers willing to drop UBER, then I'd take it to the venture capitalists and start up a competing service. Having the drivers is really the only thing that could defeat UBER.


If we could get our hands on the list itself WE can make great things happen WITHOUT the VC....VC is not good in more ways than one...Just as ask a Vet ;-)

Andy


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## Neil Yaremchuk (Sep 28, 2015)

This is why I propose a trade organization instead of a union. I dont think a lobbyist is too far off base though. It might not be the very next step but it should be considered for a long term plan. I would pay up to $5 a month to belong to a trade organization so long as there is 100% transparency. t's a business expense anyways. Like someone else noted, I don't believe that Abe Hussein should be our spokesman because I disagree with his initial approach toward drivers.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I'm Curious...
> Since Uber drivers really have no practical way of 'organizing' or exhibiting any real meaningful communication to regulators, lawmakers or Uber,
> *would it make sense for drivers to collectively hire a real lobbying firm to represent our interests?*
> 
> ...


With a non profit 501(c)6, which this association will be... (and even Abe's For Profit one)... either could task their money to lobbying efforts. As long as we are not a 501(c)3 (charity, etc)


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Well, this pretty much tells us why Uber and Lyft can get away with absolutely anything they want (much like the government):
> Of the 138 members here who have viewed this thread, only 21 have bothered to cast a 'vote' - and of those, only 15 have voted 'yes'.
> Uber/Lyft drivers are their own worst enemies.
> 
> ...


One other thing to note and THIS IS IMPORTANT,

The purpose of the association to to PROTECT the drivers.
Abe wants to use it to attack Uber (how did he put it, _Gorilla Business Warfare_).
However it doesn't sound like he is following the law correctly to protect his members.
BY LAW, each member MUST show provide their true identity AND give consent for the association to REPRESENT them.

But look what he said:
_"Members will be promted to create a profile upon joining. You do not have to use your real name or picture,)_

Then they will not be protected by ANYTHING.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Some efforts are already in motion....




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=516435551852276


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

RamzFanz said:


> Aren't you cute! A tiny amount of money to defeat a multi-billion dollar corporation on their turf!
> 
> Funny and sweet. No, if we all gave $1 a RIDE we would have different masters and the same income.
> 
> ...


Firstly I thought you agreed that you were going to work on being less strident & confrontational in your posts.

Secondly, an individual Driver choosing to turn off the App and not Driving is an individual choice, and not a collective response from Drivers to counter their diminishing earnings.

Additionally, turning off the App in fact benefits Uber even more, since Uber is on-boarding New Drivers at a higher commission.

Here is some food for thought:

*Lyft, Uber drivers' turnover high, wages low, survey finds*


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn said:


> One other thing to note and THIS IS IMPORTANT,
> 
> The purpose of the association to to PROTECT the drivers.
> Abe wants to use it to attack Uber (how did he put it, _Gorilla Business Warfare_).
> ...


A trade association cannot 'protect' its members. 
It's not a union. 
It has no collective bargaining power.

In fact, a trade association of competing independent busineses must abide by the anti-trust provisions of the Sherman Act - which would prevent the association from lobbying to standardize fares in any way.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Want to earn a living and you can't with Uber? Do something else. Stop acting like victims and act like vikings you saps. My god, did your mama's never tell you to be men? Hate Uber? SAY NO!

Oh...sorry, one other thing, have a more marketable skill than a 16 year old.

Do both! Have a skill and say no!




Damnit...I'm trying to be nice...but how do you boycott no skills and a bad attitude? WE'RE BETTER THAN TEENAGE GIRLS, ALMOST!

I'll pay for the signs.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Want to earn a living and you can't with Uber? Do something else. Stop acting like victims and act like vikings you saps. My god, did your mama's never tell you to be men? Hate Uber? SAY NO!
> Oh...sorry, one other thing, have a more marketable skill than a 16 year old.
> Do both! Have a skill and say no!


Personally, I've grown weary of the many people who think that everyone should have the same point of view: theirs.
The reason that so many poeple want to fight for fair treatment by the company that made them claims of earnings and profits is that we've spent over 200 hundred years in this country building, evolving and improving an economic system that allows individuals to start a business, grow it into a company - and provides the infrastructure for a company to grow into corporation - all while protecting workers individually and the labor force as a whole from being exploited.
It's a balance.
Uber is claiming all of the rights to grow - while ignoring the things that potect the public and the workforce.
This isn't about "like it or do something else'.
This is about protecting the balance of free enterprise with the needs of a social republic.
This is a political and legal war that if Uber 'wins' by flaunting laws and controlling legislators, we all lose.

At least in a sweat-shop, the company provided the exploited workers the equipment and materials needed to do their job.

The way Uber operates, it won't come as a surprise when they encourage 14 year olds to drive Uber after-school...
_driver's license? We don't need no steenkin' driver's license!_


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Personally, I've grown weary of the many people who think that everyone should have the same point of view: theirs.
> The reason that so many poeple want to fight for fair treatment by the company that made them claims of earnings and profits is that we've spent over 200 hundred years in this country building, evolving and improving an economic system that allows individuals to start a business, grow it into a company - and provides the infrastructure for a company to grow into corporation - all while protecting workers individually and the labor force as a whole from being exploited.
> It's a balance.
> Uber is claiming all of the rights to grow - while ignoring the things that potect the public and the workforce.
> ...


Dude...what? What your world brought you was massive unjustifiable rates for a CENTURY of transportation, controlled by politicians, their minions, and their taxi company owners! Are you kidding!

WHAT HAVE THEY DONE to justify these outrageous rates? Their service? MY god man, they LAUGH AT THAT! We'll be there in 15 minutes LOL! We'll be there in 30 minutes NO CAB ANYWHERE NEAR YOU! An hour later, we'll be there in 15 minutes!

ZERO accountability or justification for their rates and the cabbies got HOSED!

WHAT WAS THE TAXICAB COMMISSION'S ACTION? Pay me, pay me, pay me, FOR DECADES!

Why do people LOVE Uber? Clean cars and safe rides by drivers who have to be good to survive! My god, how do the few local scum get paid off that??!? No commission? No union? No political control of free enterprise or free movement? Who allowed this freedom of CHOICE in the US?!

Let me tell you, I will take a "take it or leave it" service every time over a monopoly enslaving the driver to the corporation and politician overcharging the pax and faking public safety for a monopoly.

ONE simple question that will end all debate: If the state thinks fingerprint checks are for the public safety, why does the law only apply to the city where the only taxi scum commission exists and not any other part of the state? Bonus: How was that law even introduced and passed by whom?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Dude...what? What your world brought you was massive unjustifiable rates for a CENTURY of transportation, controlled by politicians, their minions, and their taxi company owners! Are you kidding!
> 
> WHAT HAVE THEY DONE to justify these outrageous rates? Their service? MY god man, they LAUGH AT THAT! We'll be there in 15 minutes LOL! We'll be there in 30 minutes NO CAB ANYWHERE NEAR YOU! An hour later, we'll be there in 15 minutes!
> 
> ...


hehe... DUDE... I never mentioned a taxi cab company - I was adressing your notion that organized labor and unions haven't done anything but raise prices of goods and services ... which historically incorrect.

It's not 'unions' that have given us the tax cab system of today... 
it's politicians.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> In fact, a trade association of competing independent busineses must abide by the anti-trust provisions of the Sherman Act - which would prevent the association from lobbying to standardize fares in any way.


A Drivers' Association would be an association of Workers, not an association of Businesses. So I doubt that it would fall under the purview of Sherman Anti Trust Law.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Based on the response to my poll here I can't imagine that any firm would be even remotely interested.


I'm don't know why, but forum members are just not very keen on answering polls.

A lobbying firm might not be interested in lobbying on the behalf of Drivers, but I think advocacy organizations would be very interested in advocating on the behalf of Drivers.

*http://www.nelp.org/about-us/issues/*


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

chi1cabby said:


> A Drivers' Association would be an association of Workers, not an association of Businesses. So I doubt that it would fall under the purview of Sherman Anti Trust Law.


If those workers are IC's, then it's an association of "independent business people" - and if that association gains any traction in an effort to effect the pricing of fares, then you can bet that Uber (or whichever app-based-business is targeted) will indeed use the provisions of the Sherman Act to attempt shut it down.

-------------------------------------------------------​Section 1:
_"Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal..."_​
Section 2:
_"Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or combine or conspire with any other person or persons, to monopolize any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony ..."_​the Clayton Act added certain practices to the list of impermissible activities:


price discrimination between different purchasers, if such discrimination tends to create a monopoly
exclusive dealing agreements
tying arrangements
mergers and acquisitions that substantially reduce market competition.
The Robinson-Patman Act of 1936 amended the Clayton Act. The amendment proscribed certain anti-competitive practices in which manufacturers engaged in price discrimination against equally-situated distributors.
-------------------------------------------------------​
Any association of Uber Driver's would be wise to adopt an Anti-Trust statement in their By-Laws. It is a standard practice in trade associations - and should not be ignored.

As hard as it will be to even get a trade association started and up and running, can you imagine the burden of having to defend against the claims of collusion that an army of some of the more high profile attorneys an aggressive lawyers working on behalf of Uber?

It will be easier to avoid the issue than to ignore it.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

chi1cabby said:


> I'm don't know why, but forum members are just not very keen on answering polls.


And you'd think that as APP WORKERS where all we have to do is (to quote TK) "Push A Button" they'd be happy to participate!
hehe... 
actually, I'm not positive, but I think the *poll questions/voting mechanism is NOT displayed on all phones/mobile devices*... 
and I'm guessing that the majority of viewers here are viewing mostly by mobile.


> A lobbying firm might not be interested in lobbying on the behalf of Drivers, but I think advocacy organizations would be very interested in advocating on the behalf of Drivers.
> *http://www.nelp.org/about-us/issues/*


Lobbying firms are usually pretty happy to lobby on behalf of anyone who will pay them.
Interesting idea, though - requesting advocacy through a group like NELP is a great suggestin - someone would need to contact them to explain the complex relationship between 'app-workers' and the companies exploiting workers...
I have a feeling they are kinda busy trying to advocate for min wage employees and immigrant workers - the tradtionally 'ex[loited'


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> I have a feeling they are kinda busy trying to advocate for min wage employees and immigrant workers - the tradtionally 'ex[loited'


Actually NELP is at the forefront of advocacy on behalf of On-Demand Economy workers:

http://www.nelp.org/commentary/msnbc-why-its-time-for-uber-to-unionize/

http://www.nelp.org/commentary/ny-times-fair-wages-for-uber-drivers/

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/09/technology/nelp-on-demand-report-uber/


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

chi1cabby said:


> Actually NELP is at the forefront of advocacy on behalf of On-Demand Economy workers:
> 
> http://www.nelp.org/commentary/msnbc-why-its-time-for-uber-to-unionize/
> 
> ...


Good to know!
Maybe THAT's where driver's $1 a month should go (to help NELP fund the advocay).


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> In fact, a trade association of competing independent busineses must abide by the anti-trust provisions of the Sherman Act - which would prevent the association from lobbying to standardize fares in any way.


I found this Association for Online Sellers, who are in fact more of independent Businesses for platforms like EBay & Amazon. The Sherman Antitrust Act doesn't seem to be an impediment for this Association.

*http://onlinesellersassociation.org/#*

Now Uber/Lyft Drivers are more of a labor/workers rather than businesses. So I really don't see how an Association of Drivers advocating on behalf of Drivers would be somehow fall under Antitrust Laws.

PS: KeJorn this might be a good model for Drivers Association.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

chi1cabby said:


> I found this Association for Online Sellers, who are in fact more of independent Businesses for platforms like EBay & Amazon. The Sherman Antitrust Act doesn't seem to be an impediment for this Association.


Horse of a different color... OSA is not an organization of independent poeple organized for the purpose of selling the same product or to lobby for incerased pricing, set and stable pricing. 
It's an educational association; there is no collusion among its members to set pricing or control distribution in the marketplace.

Including an anti-trust statement in the bylaws of an association, and having each member of the association agree to that statement, is not burdensome - and will not impede the progress of anyone trying to get a drivers association off the ground. But those undertkaing the challenge need to understand that they have legal responsibillities to the association - and to the members - to protect everyone from liability. It's not a big deal - but it is an important one... and one of the first things an attorney for the association will guide and advise. 
-------------------------------------------------

SAMPLE ANTITRUST STATEMENT 
It is the policy of the Association, and it is the responsibility of every Association member - individual or company - to comply in all respects with federal and State antitrust laws. No activity or discussion at any Association meeting or other function may be engaged in for the purpose of bringing about any understanding or agreement among members to

(a) raise, lower, or stabilize prices; 
(b) regulate production; 
(c) allocate markets; 
(d) encourage boycotts; 
(e) foster unfair trade practices; 
(f) assist monopolization, or 
(g) in any way violate federal or State antitrust laws. ​Any questions regarding the meaning or applicability of this policy, as well as any concerns regarding activities or discussions at Association meetings, should be promptly brought to the attention of the Association President or General Counsel.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> I found this Association for Online Sellers, who are in fact more of independent Businesses for platforms like EBay & Amazon. The Sherman Antitrust Act doesn't seem to be an impediment for this Association.
> 
> *http://onlinesellersassociation.org/#*
> 
> ...


I like the fact they provide information, training, etc... even different levels of membership that results in greater access to training... and their website has a lot of information available to members... 
But aside from that it doesn't seem to be related to our issues in any way.
They are not trying to change working conditions or pay from the looks of it.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn said:


> ... it doesn't seem to be related to our issues in any way. They are not trying to change working conditions or pay from the looks of it.


You're right, K - it's not related - It's an online marketers 'association'.

There is a much better way to start an association than by looking for online sites for that purpose. But hiring an association management company (that handles dozens if not hundreds of associations) takes money. In this case, you're going to get what you pay for.

Do you have a timeframe in mind for what you want to accomplish?


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn , I wonder if the group chi1cabby referenced, NELP, is in a position to offer you some direction on association orgranizing and start up? Might be worth contacting them.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn and chi1cabby -
here's an anti-trust statement from a Pharmacy trade associaction in MI.
It's a good example of what such a statement should be (and why an anti-trust statement is needed).
http://www.michiganpharmacists.org/antitrust


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> You're right, K - it's not related - It's an online marketers 'association'.
> There is a much better way to start an association than by looking for online sites for that purpose. But hiring an association management company (that handles dozens if not hundreds of associations) takes money. In this case, you're going to get what you pay for.
> Do you have a timeframe in mind for what you want to accomplish?


I am familiar with the cost of mgmt companies. The administration for this kind of association would be fairly straightforward and possibly less expensive than an HOA mgmt company because we are not dealing with property issues, homeowner squabbles, and as many vendors.

Just mainly collection of dues.. which in this case.. will hopefully have MORE than a typical HOA, which may increase the cost some, but not terribly, provided the collection periods are reduced.. monthly would be too often... though some automated mgmt companies have nice systems and are very streamlined. I expect basic administration to be cheaper than $10K / year. Our HOA's adminstration costs are less than $5K/year... but our total costs are more than $30K, due to common property, lawncare, sprinkler maintenance, water usage, trees, collections, legal fees, etc.

Our next step is an organizing committee. I am trying to get that moving now.
Once a team is put together, I want to move forward and find a way to begin discussions with a lawyer.
Initial meeting could be just mapping out what we need to consider... and stay under a few hundred dollars. But that is still an immediate cost to deal with with no official members on board yet.

We can always create a rough draft of the the bylaws and even the anti-trust statement just to get the exposure, before having a lawyer review it and help us fix or redraft it.
Everyone should become familiar with the different areas of the bylaws and what they should entail. No final draft without a lawyers input though.

I have already reached out to NELP and a few other places... 
We will see.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> KeJorn and chi1cabby -
> here's an anti-trust statement from a Pharmacy trade associaction in MI.
> It's a good example of what such a statement should be (and why an anti-trust statement it is needed).
> http://www.michiganpharmacists.org/antitrust


Yeah.. that is probably closer to what we need to address.
I personally like the layout / breakdown of this one better (though unrelated to our issues):
http://www.amseed.org/about-asta/antitrust/


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn said:


> I am familiar with the cost of mgmt companies. The administration for this kind of association would be fairly straightforward and possibly less expensive than an HOA mgmt company because we are not dealing with property issues, homeowner squabbles, and as many vendors.


omg... if you are confusing a Home Owners Association management company with a Trade Association Management company - you have a long way to go. You must know someone who owns a business that is a member of a trade association or organization... ask around - have them put you in touch with the management company and then ask them for advice.

here are a few results from a quick google search:
http://www.smithbucklin.com/business-trade/
http://www.taminc.com/
http://www.association-partners.com/​


> I have already reached out to NELP and a few other places... We will see.


GOOD! I hope they can help... and I bet they will be happy to point you in the right direction.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> omg... if you are confusing a Home Owners Association management company with a Trade Association Management company - you have a long way to go. You must know someone who owns a business that is a member of a trade association or organization... ask around - have them put you in touch with the management company and then ask them for advice.


Good God you like to jump down people's throats.. nobody is confusing HOA with Trade Associations.
Right now our primary costs that we are concerned with, will be the basic administration. That is what gets us up and running, accepting dues, bookeeping and the likes.

The are other costs we have NO CLUE what they will be... as they are specific to the kind of activities / services /benefits we intend to provide as an association.
I was not including those costs, as they are still yet to be determined.

One reason I mentioned the amount, has to do with a previous comparison I made to Abe's plan.
Which when you look at manpower/administration (without the unknowns of the activities/services/benefits).. just on the admin and manpower costs alone, his operation was 50-100 times more costly than ours... so that was the amount stuck in my head. Sorry i did not clarify earlier.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn said:


> Good God you like to jump down people's throats.. nobody is confusing HOA with Trade Associations.


I'm glad to hear that - but that's not what you said. (ie: The administration for this kind of association would be fairly straightforward and possibly less expensive than an HOA mgmt company because we are not dealing with property issues, homeowner squabbles, and as many vendors."). My comment wasn't meant to jump down anyone's throat - it was an expression of astonishment at what you said... no more, no less. Sorry if it came off otherwise.



> One reason I mentioned the amount, has to do with a previous comparison I made to Abe's plan.
> Which when you look at manpower/administration (without the unknowns of the activities/services/benefits).. just on the admin and manpower costs alone, his operation was 50-100 times more costly than ours... so that was the amount stuck in my head. Sorry i did not clarify earlier.


I didn't see any mention of costs (and don't really need to - I'm sure you know what the challenges are).


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> omg... if you are confusing a Home Owners Association management company with a Trade Association Management company - you have a long way to go. You must know someone who owns a business that is a member of a trade association or organization... ask around - have them put you in touch with the management company and then ask them for advice.


Keep in mind, I responded to this:
_"But hiring an association management company (that handles dozens if not hundreds of associations) takes money. In this case, you're going to get what you pay for."

An association management company (AMC) is a professional service company that specializes in providing management services for associations on a fee-for-service basis. AMCs provide the professional staff, administrative support, office space, technology, and equipment an association needs to operate efficiently. An association management company typically manages several associations from one company location, providing a wide range of benefits including shared technology systems, access to expert specialized staff, and shared purchasing power. _

In many ways, the administrative costs will be similar to ANY association, an HOA included..
Granted, depending on the activities, services, and benefits we intended to provide as a trade association, we may require more permanent staffing or unique services that the AMC will handle, thus even increasing our administrative costs...
However, for the basic administration... collecting dues, bookkeeping, coordinating members meetings (though in our case, these will likely take place remotely), handling of accounts, etc... these costs will not be that different from ANY association... and the factor than generally matters, are the number of members involved... which right now, we have no clue how many will join, but could be as high as 327,000.. though probably no where near.

Where the serious costs will lie, will be the unique activities, services, and benefits that come with a trade association.. those activities will definitely incur much higher costs than any HOA... in the realm of legal fees ALONE, I expect it to be MUCH higher.. to the extent that they would blow away my HOA's entire budget for the next 5-10 years. However, again... these are costs no one seems to know off the top of their head, except those that perhaps deal with it on a daily basis. And we have yet to talk with those people...

Look, you bailed and did not want to get involved. Fine, then don't. But if you are going to ask questions and jump all over peoples' answers, then just keep your damn questions to yourself... I got enough shit swirling in my head to be playing with this kind of nonsense.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn said:


> Keep in mind, I responded to this:
> _"But hiring an association management company (that handles dozens if not hundreds of associations) takes money. In this case, you're going to get what you pay for."
> 
> An association management company (AMC) is a professional service company that specializes in providing management services for associations on a fee-for-service basis. AMCs provide the professional staff, administrative support, office space, technology, and equipment an association needs to operate efficiently. An association management company typically manages several associations from one company location, providing a wide range of benefits including shared technology systems, access to expert specialized staff, and shared purchasing power. _
> ...


k - An HOA is NOT an advocay group.

never mind... it's not worth it.
go reinvent the wheel.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> k - An HOA is NOT an advocay group.
> never mind... it's not worth it.
> go reinvent the wheel.


You bailed. If this is what you have to offer from the outside looking in, I don't need your shit.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

KeJorn said:


> You bailed. If this is what you have to offer from the outside looking in, I don't need your shit.


Abe, is that you?
The only thing I 'bailed' on was joing a Facebook group which due to privacy issues was not an option for me.

FRI 1:07P
I noticed you left the united app based group... just wanted to ask what your concerns were? do you feel we are heading down the wrong path??​
*You asked for my input* - you got it.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Michael - Cleveland said:


> Abe, is that you?


That's an uncalled for low blow.



Michael - Cleveland said:


> *You asked for my input* - you got it.


There is constructive input and helping out. Then there is being unjustly critical without pitching in the effort.


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## Michael - Cleveland (Jan 1, 2015)

1. I disagree.
2. I agree. Find anything in my comments above that is "unjustly critical without pitching in the effort".


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## Lepke (Oct 24, 2014)

$12 a year is one days lunch money and very little to ask.


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## KeJorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Get Me is a another option...
http://www.khou.com/story/tech/2015/10/15/new-ride-sharing-delivery-service-hopes-top-uber/74019618/


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## Realityshark (Sep 22, 2014)

This idea makes more sense than sending a scam artist $10 for a website subscription.


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