# Waymo Engineer's Disturbing Confession Highlights Ignorance At the Heart of the Self-Driving Lobby



## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

*The Achilles Heel of autonomous cars is the people who design them.*

"The majority of those working on self-driving cars don't really understand what they're working on."

"How a man with a Ph.D. in Computer Science and Masters in Control & Robotics, working at Waymo-the company with the most advanced self-driving car program in the world-could be so ignorant staggers belief."

"Kazemi is obviously aware of Waymo's strategic decision to focus exclusively on Level 4 autonomous cars. Their decision was based on research indicating that semi-autonomous systems short of Level 4 led to atrophying skills. As cars march up the SAE/DOT Level definitions, drivers pay less attention-and place more faith in technology-than they should. Waymo's test drivers began falling asleep when using semi-autonomous systems, and were unresponsive to transition warnings alerting them to resume control. Studies have suggested that unprepared passengers might need as long as thirty seconds to do so, and *Waymo concluded that no transition warning system would be sufficient to make a semi-autonomous car safe*."

"Waymo therefore decided to jump from Level 2/ADAS, which is where we are today, straight to R&D for Level 4."

"Long-term reliance on any form of automation-even mild semi-autonomous systems-leads to atrophying skills. *The more automation, and the more time spent using it, the worse the atrophy*."

"Separately or together, no matter how many ADAS features you pack into a car, and no matter how well they work, I must repeat _anything under Level 4 is semi-autonomous."_

_"_Here's a guy working on L4 who doesn't seem to know or understand the nomenclature (let alone functionalities) of anything contiguous to what he's working on, and then he gets into a car with literally nothing, and nearly kills five people._"_

"By conflating semi-autonomous features with actual autonomy, glossing over his own lack of skills and concluding that no one else could do better, Kazemi highlights the blinders-on mentality of too many in self-driving development.

Virtually everyone in the self-driving car sector-whether legacy car makers or startups-is focused on what's called series autonomy, which substitutes for human control rather than augments. An augmentation approach would follow the lessons of commercial aviation, where training and automation have proven incredibly successful in reducing fatalities."


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

You know, at first I used to trudge through your walls of nonsense posts, but that died of boredom with your obvious disingenuous cherry picking, ignoring of facts, and laughable agenda driven editing.

You know this hit article contradicts itself, just as do you, yes?


Let me give you a hint: Waymo is at level 4.



Let that sink in for a minute.



Waymo is at level 4. 



We told you it was coming and it did. Faster than almost anyone expected.


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## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> You know, at first I used to trudge through your walls of nonsense posts, but that died of boredom with your obvious disingenuous cherry picking, ignoring of facts, and laughable agenda driven editing.
> 
> You know this hit article contradicts itself, just as do you, yes?
> 
> ...


Anyone who posts pro-SDC stuff online is either:
A) getting paid to do so
Or
B) crazy

Which one are you RamzFanz ?

(We already figured out tomatopaste )


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## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

RamzFanz said:


> laughable agenda driven


Look who is talking about "agenda driven"? The lunatic that gives away his personal time (family, profession, fun) to maintain a BLOG about self driving cars.


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## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

jocker12 said:


> Look who is talking about "agenda driven"? The lunatic that gives away his personal time (family, profession, fun) to maintain a BLOG about self driving cars.


What's the blog?


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## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

iheartuber said:


> What's the blog?


https://uberpeople.net/threads/you-...should-you-want-to.190644/page-7#post-2889590

https://uberpeople.net/xfa-blogs/ramzfanz.8845/


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## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

I don’t understand. It’s a blog ON the UP website? That doesn’t sound like a real blog


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## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

iheartuber said:


> I don't understand. It's a blog ON the UP website? That doesn't sound like a real blog


It is a section on this website. He is proud of it and puts extra time into it. After all this, he is going around and tells other users they have secret agendas. My answer to his schizophrenia is - I'm a witch and I have big horns he would like to write a blog post about.


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## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

Ok RamzFanz now I get it.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> You know, at first I used to trudge through your walls of nonsense posts, but that died of boredom with your obvious disingenuous cherry picking, ignoring of facts, and laughable agenda driven editing.
> 
> You know this hit article contradicts itself, just as do you, yes?
> 
> ...


Oh really? So google has level 4 cars operating in Seattle and NYC and Chicago and sf?

God stfu ramz. Don't you have a sprinkler system to attend to?



iheartuber said:


> Anyone who posts pro-SDC stuff online is either:
> A) getting paid to do so
> Or
> B) crazy
> ...


This guy is an older guy (he drives boober to pay for his kids college education) who used to (or currently) installs back yard sprinkler systems. He's obviously a good dad but also is obviously in no way qualified to act as some kind of industry expert. He's someone who has been blinded by too many sci fi movies and industry propaganda. He has no access to non-public information and is not otherwise connected in any fashion.

He feels like he's getting in on the ground floor of something big (usually driven by a sense of inadequacy, think all the idiots who are into bitcoin) but doesn't seem to understand corporate propaganda and lies.

I would suggest you ignore.


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## Sydney Uber (Apr 15, 2014)

heynow321 said:


> Oh really? So google has level 4 cars operating in Seattle and NYC and Chicago and sf?
> 
> God stfu ramz. Don't you have a sprinkler system to attend to?
> 
> ...


Geez! Do you reckon I've jumped the gun by promising my best client a Autonomous flying car by 2025?

I'll be well and truly over driving him 53km from Syd airport to his semi-rural paradise. Today it took an hour and 40 mins! Thank God I could engage Autopilot on the clogged motorway and catch some shuteye!


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

jocker12 said:


> Look who is talking about "agenda driven"? The lunatic that gives away his personal time (family, profession, fun) to maintain a BLOG about self driving cars.


I wrote a single blog and it was requested. And yes, studying technology is a part of my personal time.


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## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

RamzFanz said:


> I wrote a single blog and it was requested. And yes, studying technology is a part of my personal time.


If you are referring to the BS you posted on this website, that is not a blog, that is only a post. You can keep calling it a blog though, if it makes you feel important. Anyway, if it was not for an "agenda" you could have said no, thanks, maybe you could find someone more informed and better than me. But you felt tickled by this. You've wanted to show off, and you continue to invite users to read your useless 2nd grade BS.

Now that you told us your wife and daughter are bad drivers, do your family a favor and try to use your personal time to teach them how to safely obey ALL traffic laws, keep the car on the black stuff between the white lines, and how to yield to pedestrians. It is more important for them and for you to have them alive and well, than is for you to waste time on a BS self driving laughable delusion.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

iheartuber said:


> Anyone who posts pro-SDC stuff online is either:
> A) getting paid to do so
> Or
> B) crazy
> ...


Probably BOTH.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

jocker12 said:


> If you are referring to the BS you posted on this website, that is not a blog, that is only a post. You can keep calling it a blog though, if it makes you feel important. Anyway, if it was not for an "agenda" you could have said no, thanks, maybe you could find someone more informed and better than me. But you felt tickled by this. You've wanted to show off, and you continue to invite users to read your useless 2nd grade BS.
> 
> Now that you told us your wife and daughter are bad drivers, do your family a favor and try to use your personal time to teach them how to safely obey ALL traffic laws, keep the car on the black stuff between the white lines, and how to yield to pedestrians. It is more important for them and for you to have them alive and well, than is for you to waste time on a BS self driving laughable delusion.


I always know when someone has lost the debate by their tactics.

Maybe someone who writes walls and walls of text to push their unsupported and already failed point of view should rethink telling others how to spend their time?

By the way, in case you missed it, Waymo is level 4 and live.


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## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

RamzFanz said:


> I always know when someone has lost the debate by their tactics.


It's not the "agenda" anymore; it's tactics. Take care of your wife and daughter and stop embarrassing yourself as an "expert" you think you are. All you really show here is how big of an imposture you want to promote with zero basic knowledge whatsoever.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

And yet
Robots already have Plans
For YOUR FUTURE.



RamzFanz said:


> I always know when someone has lost the debate by their tactics.
> 
> Maybe someone who writes walls and walls of text to push their unsupported and already failed point of view should rethink telling others how to spend their time?
> 
> By the way, in case you missed it, Waymo is level 4 and live.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

jocker12 said:


> It's not the "agenda" anymore; it's tactics. Take care of your wife and daughter and stop embarrassing yourself as an "expert" you think you are. All you really show here is how big of an imposture you want to promote with zero basic knowledge whatsoever.


Waymo launched well ahead of schedule. It's over. SDC point A to B rides are a reality. Move on.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Waymo launched well ahead of schedule. It's over. SDC point A to B rides are a reality. Move on.


no they're not. move on.


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## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Waymo launched well ahead of schedule. It's over. SDC point A to B rides are a reality. Move on.


St Louis boy- you have confused the point..

The point is not whether Waymo has launched or not... the point is: did it launch AND do a lot of people use it. The last part is key.

So... it launched. Hey, congrats! Now, until the day comes when (actually... IF) a lot of people use this, then kindly shut the %^# up


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

heynow321 said:


> no they're not. move on.


Ah, the denial stage. Hang in there, it will pass.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

RamzFanz said:


> Waymo launched well ahead of schedule. It's over. SDC point A to B rides are a reality. Move on.


You're calling their test a launch??


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

iheartuber said:


> St Louis boy- you have confused the point (probably for your own PR purposes to make your side "look better"). The point is not whether Waymo has launched or not... the point is: did it launch AND do a lot of people use it. The last part is key.
> 
> So... it launched. Hey, congrats! Now, until the day comes when (actually... IF) a lot of people use this, then kindly shut the %^# up


Do a lot of people use it? It's by invite only for a short time. Tens of thousands signed up to be invited. So it's fair to say a lot of people _wanted_ to use it and almost certainly will once it goes public.

Didn't mean to upset you with the news they are live and real. Remember, let go of the things you can't control. Don't internalize your disappointment. It's not healthy.


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## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

goneubering said:


> You're calling their test a launch??


First rule of PR: hype EVERYTHING

Make a trip to the grocery store sound like the next moon landing.


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

goneubering said:


> You're calling their test a launch??


Nope. They are live on live roads giving real rides to real passengers, no driver.



iheartuber said:


> First rule of PR: hype EVERYTHING
> 
> Make a trip to the grocery store sound like the next moon landing.


So what I'm reading is you don't think SDCs going live well ahead of predictions is a big deal?

It's a pretty big deal.


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## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Do a lot of people use it? It's by invite only for a short time. Tens of thousands signed up to be invited. So it's fair to say a lot of people _wanted_ to use it and almost certainly will once it goes public.
> 
> Didn't mean to upset you with the news they are live and real. Remember, let go of the things you can't control. Don't internalize your disappointment. It's not healthy.


Again, the reason why you and I have a disagreement of opinions is you believe that this thing is going to be the next big thing, and I don't.

We cannot convince each other at this point so we just have to wait and see what happens.

May the best idea win


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

RamzFanz said:


> Nope. They are live on live roads giving real rides to real passengers, no driver.


I think even Google Cars would admit it's still a limited test.


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## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> Nope. They are live on live roads giving real rides to real passengers, no driver.
> 
> So what I'm reading is you don't think SDCs going live well ahead of predictions is a big deal?
> 
> It's a pretty big deal.


History is littered with examples of things certain people thought at the time were a big deal that turned out to be... not a big deal


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

iheartuber said:


> History is littered with examples of things certain people thought at the time were a big deal that turned out to be... not a big deal


And this isn't one of those, obviously. Maybe a few Uber drivers have it all worked out where entire industries who are investing hundreds of billions don't, but I wouldn't bet on it.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> And this isn't one of those, obviously. Maybe a few Uber drivers have it all worked out where entire industries who are investing hundreds of billions don't, but I wouldn't bet on it.


Lol ramzs favorite logical fallacy


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## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> And this isn't one of those, obviously. Maybe a few Uber drivers have it all worked out where entire industries who are investing hundreds of billions don't, but I wouldn't bet on it.


You have no proof as of today that "this is not one of those"

The only proof will come if we ever see a day when the public decides in large overwhelming dollars to use robot taxis.

I think you're going to be waiting a long time my friend....

Also... don't think of in terms of "What Uber drivers think vs what people investing billions of dollars think"

Instead, think of it as "people who understand how to run a transportation business vs those who have zero experience in running a transportation business"


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## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

RamzFanz said:


> And this isn't one of those, obviously. Maybe a few Uber drivers have it all worked out where entire industries who are investing hundreds of billions don't, but I wouldn't bet on it.


This is THE DEFINITION of a speculation. Sooooo...... do you want me to reopen the space program story? Or do you want me to ask you about a source for those "hundreds of billions" you say "entire industries" (sounds so intimidating, makes you feel important and knowledgeable) are spending?

Or just underline your first word - "MAYBE" and give you a pass for all your nonsense?


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## RamzFanz (Jan 31, 2015)

jocker12 said:


> This is THE DEFINITION of a speculation. Sooooo...... do you want me to reopen the space program story? Or do you want me to ask you about a source for those "hundreds of billions" you say "entire industries" (sounds so intimidating, makes you feel important and knowledgeable) are spending?
> 
> Or just underline your first word - "MAYBE" and give you a pass for all your nonsense?


If you're not aware of the industries involved and investments made, why are you even in this discussion? Are you saying it's not true or are you really that ignorant on this subject?

"With the entire automotive industry looking toward a future of driverless mobility..."

THAT'S YOUR OWN POST!!! So easy.

Please tell me where Waymo "hyped". Still waiting. That's another of your disowned imaginings.


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## jocker12 (May 11, 2017)

RamzFanz said:


> If you're not aware of the industries involved and investments made, why are you even in this discussion? Are you saying it's not true or are you really that ignorant on this subject?
> 
> "With the entire automotive industry looking toward a future of driverless mobility..."
> 
> ...


I think you've lost it.

Speculation - the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

Those rainbows you see..... and the LYFT baby Jesus.... better go to bed and stop embarrassing yourself.


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## iheartuber (Oct 31, 2015)

RamzFanz said:


> If you're not aware of the industries involved and investments made, why are you even in this discussion? Are you saying it's not true or are you really that ignorant on this subject?
> 
> "With the entire automotive industry looking toward a future of driverless mobility..."
> 
> ...


I like Ramz's argument: "Well, big powerful companies are pouring billions into this so it's gotta be successful, right?"

LOL!


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

iheartuber said:


> I like Ramz's argument: "Well, big powerful companies are pouring billions into this so it's gotta be successful, right?"
> 
> LOL!


 It's a great logical fallacy isn't it? It's funny because we have an example right in front of us where supposed sophisticated investors are going to lose billions . Look at all the dumbasses who invested in boober...

How about the morons who invested in pets.com ?

Ramz obviously knows nothing about irrational exuberance or The psychological factors at play that can drive investors to do extremely stupid things.

Anyone remember the private equity group that invested a few billion into Washington Mutual a couple months before it went **** up ?


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## Transportador (Sep 15, 2015)

Give me a break you guys. I am an engineering program manager with more than 30 years of industry experience in taking complex systems from scratch thru R&D to market launch. A lot of these systems are robotics (including surgical systems). ALL of the people working on self driving cars are smoking dope. We are working on a current product that has a self propelled unit just to help the users move it around the hospital. It has taken more than a full year to get the remote control for the driving unit to work. The US Navy can't even drive their ships around in slow speed without crashing with tons of control software and human on watch. Just say NO to self driving cars. Go back to watching Star Trek and dream on.


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

Transportador said:


> Give me a break you guys. I am an engineering program manager with more than 30 years of industry experience in taking complex systems from scratch thru R&D to market launch. A lot of these systems are robotics (including surgical systems). ALL of the people working on self driving cars are smoking dope. We are working on a current product that has a self propelled unit just to help the users move it around the hospital. It has taken more than a full year to get the remote control for the driving unit to work. The US Navy can't even drive their ships around in slow speed without crashing with tons of control software and human on watch. Just say NO to self driving cars. Go back to watching Star Trek and dream on.


I think this is why Google took their name off their SDCs and called the company Waymo instead. They don't want another failure to damage the Google brand.


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## heynow321 (Sep 3, 2015)

goneubering said:


> I think this is why Google took their name off their SDCs and called the company Waymo instead. They don't want another failure to damage the Google brand.


exactly this. they want to distance the google brand from certain failure.


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