# The 'how much pax pay' debate



## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

There seems to be a long running debate here (or maybe just difference in attitudes) between those who care how much pax pay (compared to how much the driver makes) and those who don't.

My personal attitude is that I don't really care how much pax pay for the ride, only what I get paid. And as long as I deem it worthwhile, I'll carry on driving for them, otherwise not.

Anyway, just curious what the root of the attitude difference is? Also, how do you feel about it, and why?


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

I think the reason it matters is the correlation between tipping > amount paid I guess? It doesn’t usually make a difference for me and the amount I have in my head, but I do tend to tip the difference between what I saved on top of the amount I’m already tipping if it makes sense?

Like when someone comps my drinks or takes 10-20% off my bill (why I don’t know but it’s always nice) then I will just tip heavier.

it annoys me that I pay $xx and the driver only gets $x. But ultimately, can’t do anything about that so 🤷🏻‍♀️🤔


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

In the end, it's what I make as that is what gets deposited into my account. 

And occasionally, like a $45 airport ride that was 45 minutes, the PAX asked about pay and we talked about a lot of things. So we compared. He paid about $60 for the ride. I made $45 (Lyft) total, which included a $5 surge. Explained the whole we can't see what riders pay on Lyft. Lyft Cut 25% - Me 75%. Reasonable. Lyft didn't take a huge surge cut on this one. He ended up tipping $10 on top.

I worry sometimes it's the "perception" of Uber/Lyft stealing vs reality. Perception becomes reality over time if you think it enough. Even if it's not reality. That said, Uber/Lyfts lack transparency. Which contributes to false perception and in turn creates a false reality. And then folks get bent on the false reality. Although, as I said, lack of transparency doesn't allow us to know what the reality really is (or at least makes it difficult to get at).


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

DriverMark said:


> In the end, it's what I make as that is what gets deposited into my account.
> 
> And occasionally, like a $45 airport ride that was 45 minutes, the PAX asked about pay and we talked about a lot of things. So we compared. He paid about $60 for the ride. I made $45 (Lyft) total, which included a $5 surge. Explained the whole we can't see what riders pay on Lyft. Lyft Cut 25% - Me 75%. Reasonable. Lyft didn't take a huge surge cut on this one. He ended up tipping $10 on top.
> 
> I worry sometimes it's the "perception" of Uber/Lyft stealing vs reality. Perception becomes reality over time if you think it enough. Even if it's not reality. That said, Uber/Lyfts lack transparency. Which contributes to false perception and in turn creates a false reality. And then folks get bent on the false reality. Although, as I said, lack of transparency doesn't allow us to know what the reality really is (or at least makes it difficult to get at).


Don't the apps tell us what the rider paid? Haven't done Lyft in a while so I don't know, but pretty sure Uber does.


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## DriverMark (Jan 22, 2018)

reg barclay said:


> Don't the apps tell us what the rider paid? Haven't done Lyft in a while so I don't know, but pretty sure Uber does.


Yes, Uber still does. Lyft no, they cut that out couple months ago. Can no longer see what PAX pay. The few times I have talked with folks about surge and price on Lyft, there hasn't been anything fishy. But I don't bring up $$$ unless PAX does first, so it's rare to have that discussion. I had 4-5 Lyft surges yesterday. I would really like to know what total ride pay was to see what that % break down is. I feel Lyft takes more than they should, but I just don't know. And the times I have asked and we compare, it's been like the above 25%. So I'm left wondering what the reality is vs perception. And it's all Lyft's fault for causing that unknown.


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## Mkang14 (Jun 29, 2019)

reg barclay said:


> There seems to be a long running debate here (or maybe just difference in attitudes) between those who care how much pax pay (compared to how much the driver makes) and those who don't.
> 
> My personal attitude is that I don't really care how much pax pay for the ride, only what I get paid. And as long as I deem it worthwhile, I'll carry on driving for them, otherwise not.
> 
> Anyway, just curious what the root of the attitude difference is? Also, how do you feel about it, and why?


I agree with you.

Although one factor is if the pax gets ripped off, they aren't happy about the high fare, uber gets the benifits and we dont get a tip and a one star. I guess we would never know if that's the case but I wouldn't be surprised if that happend &#129300;.


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## Coachman (Sep 22, 2015)

I'm not sure about the question.

If Uber raises fares 25% but keeps my rate per mile and minute the same, that's the equivalent of a pay cut in the big scheme of things.

If you went into business with a partner sharing the profits 50/50 and the next year the profits rose but your partner kept 100% of the additional profits then I think you'd care about that.


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## Canaddar (Oct 3, 2019)

Uber actually seems to have something to keep it from getting too out of wack. During a surge, customers see a percentage increase in fares. Drivers see a fixed amount. If it was a $2 surge and a 2 mile trip, the customer might pay $10 or so, about 5 going to the driver. But, on a $2 surge and a 50 mile trip, the customer could have a huge bill and the driver would make the normal amount plus $2. So Uber actually takes a bunch of the extra that they made and passes it on to the driver.

I can't remember what they call it, but it is shown on its on separate line in the pay break down.


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## JustTreatMeFair (Nov 28, 2017)

UBER gouges passengers passing on SOME of it to drivers but the disparity between what they charge and later pay the driver HAS to affect what people believe and eventually decide to tip a driver.

Most passengers THINK Drivers make MOST of the fare so High Surge may increase a driver's pay but it also decreases their tips.

That's why I have a problem with the current system.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Coachman said:


> I'm not sure about the question.
> 
> If Uber raises fares 25% but keeps my rate per mile and minute the same, that's the equivalent of a pay cut in the big scheme of things.
> 
> If you went into business with a partner sharing the profits 50/50 and the next year the profits rose but your partner kept 100% of the additional profits then I think you'd care about that.


The analogy is flawed. Our partnership is not the kind where two people or entitities co invest in exchange for a share of profits. (If it were, Uber's profits haven't risen at all, only gross income has. But they are actually losing money. So if we were getting a share of profits, we'd be getting nothing.)

Our partnership is more like two separate businesses with a mutual agreement. In such cases, business agreements are periodically being renegotiated. And each business really only cares whether the deal is worth entering for them, not how much the other company is making. The only time that might come into it, would be when the deal is being negotiated.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Of course what the passenger pays matters. The other day I had a ride to the airport that was being charged four times the amount. Yes I make good money but if the commission was still in place, I would have made $25 more. That's just on one ride. Granted not all rides would equal $25 more but even at $5 a ride X the number of rides we do a year, that's how much money they're stealing
from us



DriverMark said:


> In the end, it's what I make as that is what gets deposited into my account.
> 
> And occasionally, like a $45 airport ride that was 45 minutes, the PAX asked about pay and we talked about a lot of things. So we compared. He paid about $60 for the ride. I made $45 (Lyft) total, which included a $5 surge. Explained the whole we can't see what riders pay on Lyft. Lyft Cut 25% - Me 75%. Reasonable. Lyft didn't take a huge surge cut on this one. He ended up tipping $10 on top.
> 
> I worry sometimes it's the "perception" of Uber/Lyft stealing vs reality. Perception becomes reality over time if you think it enough. Even if it's not reality. That said, Uber/Lyfts lack transparency. Which contributes to false perception and in turn creates a false reality. And then folks get bent on the false reality. Although, as I said, lack of transparency doesn't allow us to know what the rride Xty really is (or at least makes it difficult to get at).


I don't know where you're getting the 75% + 25%. The only thing that those numbers fall in line with anymore is our base Mile and minute rates. Anything other than those rates, definitely does not fall in that ratio. Why do you think they created the varible platform fee? So they can legally take whatever they want without removing our commission from our agreement , like Uber did



DriverMark said:


> . I had 4-5 Lyft surges yesterday. I would really like to know what total ride pay was to see what that % break down is. I feel Lyft takes more than they should, but I just don't know. And the times I have asked and we compare, it's been like the above 25%.


Trust me, you don't want to see it.
Lyft is taking way more than their fair share. Why do you think they took away our ability to see what passenger pays. They were sick of hearing drivers *****ing at them. Back before they made their API private , there were multiple times after an event where there was a prime of 250%-350% With not one penny being passed on to the drivers. The entire city of Denver was almost constantly at 25% Prime. Us drivers were never notified nor paid anything extra. Buddy of mine had a ride after a concert where he got paid 100 and Lyft charged passenger 200



Mkang14 said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> Although one factor is if the pax g ed off, they aren't happy about the high fare, uber gets the benifits and we dont get a tip and a one star. I guess we would never know if that's the case but I wouldn't be surprised if that happend &#129300;.


^^^^^^ this! When passengers are paying triple the price, they expect a better service to be provided. Yet we have no idea they are paying triple the price. If we knew we most likely would approach the whole situation differently which quite possibly could lead to a different outcome on ratings and tips. They tend to be harsher raters. They are already pissed at the price and any little thing just agitates that pissyness. Everything is driver's fault. They don't know where to properly place their frustration and we are in direct line of fire. not only are our ratings affected, our tips are too. They think since they're paying $100 for a ride, that's good enough and they don't have to tip . Plus they still think we're making the majority of that. Which just supports their reasoning for not tipping



Canaddar said:


> I can't remember what they call it, but it is shown on its on separate line in the pay break down


It's called share adjustment. Plus our surges convert over at times in addition to the share adjustment meant



reg barclay said:


> The analogy is flawed. Our partnership is not the kind where two people or entitities co invest in exchange for a share of profits. (If it were, Uber's profits haven't risen at all, only gross income has. But they are actually losing money. So if we were getting a share of profits, we'd be getting nothing.)
> 
> Our partnership is more like two separate businesses with a mutual agreement. In such cases, business agreements are periodically being renegotiated. And each business really only cares whether the deal is worth entering for them, not how much the other company is making. The only time that might come into it, would be when the deal is being negotiated.


Regardless of how anyone wants to look at it, one side does not make all the decisions for both sides.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Daisey77 said:


> Regardless of how anyone wants to look at it, one side does not make all the decisions for both sides.


Nobody is deciding anything for both sides. When they offer us new terms, we have the right to tell them to shove it, and stop driving for them. We also have a right to counter them with our own terms. Realistically they wouldn't accept (except maybe if all drivers did so together), but bottom line, we are not forced to agree to their terms.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

reg barclay said:


> Nobody is deciding anything for both sides. When they offer us new terms, we have the right to tell them to shove it, and stop driving for them. We also have a right to counter them with our own terms. Realistically they wouldn't accept (except maybe if all drivers did so together), but bottom line, we are not forced to agree to their terms.


I'm sorry but when we wake up and go to sign on to work, only to find out we are jobless unless we agree to these terms and the roof over our head is dependent on this job, yes we are signing this contract under duress. Making the contract legally unenforceable


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Daisey77 said:


> I'm sorry but when we wake up and go to sign on to work, only to find out we are jobless unless we agree to these terms and the roof over our head is dependent on this job, yes we are signing this contract under duress. *Making the contract legally unenforceable*


Not sure about that. Are you guessing that it's legally unenforceable or is that a definitive statement from legal knowledge? I can't really argue either way, as it's not something I know a lot about. But my guess is that it's a gray area at best.

And what if they gave a months notice of the new terms, would it then be okay?

I suspect you are arguing as much from a moral standpoint, as from a legal one. Which is fine. But I think it's good to be clear about the difference between the two.


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## Aw Jeez (Jul 13, 2015)

Why would I want to know what Uber/Lyft charge the customer? There is nothing I can do about it or the percentage they give to me. I take the deal or I do not. Can a too-high fare impact our tips and possibly our ratings? Sure. For me personally, this is why I avoid driving during a surge. Yeah, the extra money might be nice, but is it worth it considering the possible downside? Not for me! If I ever did work a surge (and knew about it - not the secret surges), I think I'd preemptively say something sympathetic to the passenger, apologizing for the surge pricing and wishing more cars were working. Then I'd switch the conversation over to the event they're just coming from. If they enjoyed it and you get them talking about it, it _might_ take some of the sting out of the surge fare. Maybe. I hope I never find out.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Aw Jeez said:


> Why would I want to know what Uber/Lyft charge the customer? There is nothing I can do about it or the percentage they give to me. I take the deal or I do not. Can a too-high fare impact our tips and possibly our ratings? Sure. For me personally, this is why I avoid driving during a surge. Yeah, the extra money might be nice, but is it worth it considering the possible downside? Not for me! If I ever did work a surge (and knew about it - not the secret surges), I think I'd preemptively say something sympathetic to the passenger, apologizing for the surge pricing and wishing more cars were working. Then I'd switch the conversation over to the event they're just coming from. If they enjoyed it and you get them talking about it, it _might_ take some of the sting out of the surge fare. Maybe. I hope I never find out.


I wouldn't refrain from surge rides because of ratings worry. IMO most pax will not downrate because of that. And even if the odd one does, it shouldn't make a difference, as long as the driver's rating isn't close to the wire.


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## Aw Jeez (Jul 13, 2015)

reg barclay said:


> I wouldn't refrain from surge rides because of ratings worry. IMO most pax will not downrate because of that. And even if the odd one does, it shouldn't make a difference, as long as the driver's rating isn't close to the wire.


And I'm not, thankfully (4.95). I just hate being stuck in traffic after big events here in Pensacola. I'm very, very fortunate that I do not depend on ride-share for my full-time income, so I can pick and choose when and where I want to drive. Surges associated with concerts or other big events are just not my thing. YMMV.


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## Lyftuber100 (Nov 14, 2019)

sellkatsell44 said:


> I think the reason it matters is the correlation between tipping > amount paid I guess? It doesn't usually make a difference for me and the amount I have in my head, but I do tend to tip the difference between what I saved on top of the amount I'm already tipping if it makes sense?
> 
> Like when someone comps my drinks or takes 10-20% off my bill (why I don't know but it's always nice) then I will just tip heavier.
> 
> it annoys me that I pay $xx and the driver only gets $x. But ultimately, can't do anything about that so &#129335;&#127995;‍♀&#129300;


Well.. we all know that the drivers can set up side hustles with the pax and bring boober down. Do enough rides and you get a feeling for the ones who use it regularly that would save a lot of money if you take them directly but this is a somewhat scary proposition for some ants.


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## BadYota (Aug 7, 2019)

It’s bothers me because the surge price is nowhere near reflective of what the drivers pay for the ride. When it doubles or triples for them we only get a couple dollars more. I always check how much it is to certain places in the riders app and it’s outrageous compared to what I receive. When it’s not busy though, with all the discounts on Uber, I’m always surprised how cheap some of the rides are.
Rates will definitely increase for riders in 2020. They’re getting too much flak for squeezing the drivers that they’ll have to get money the other way now.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

I don’t give hoot what pax pays or Uber’s take. Has no meaning. I only care what I get and that it is correct. On my other driving gig there is no way to see fare details at all. Perhaps that is better?


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## mch (Nov 22, 2018)

Paying attention to what the pax pays will just drive you bananas. Uber is continuing to lose money, they have to turn a profit somehow so its either they raise the rate for the rider or lower yours. The gap will continue to widen one way or another.


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## FLKeys (Dec 27, 2018)

When I first started I would get hung up on what percent Uber/Lyft keeps. Ultimately it does not matter as long as I get paid what I am supposed to get paid.

As far as tips go, I rarely see a surge in my area and when I did it really had no noticeable impact on my tips. My tip percentage of rides stayed nearly the same.


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## Nate5Star (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm another who doesn't care what the pax pays.

BUT, because of this thread I have looked at a few rides. Thank you very much for that.

I managed to drill down earnings-see details-see transactions-picking an activity transaction-trip details-fare details (finally), but only on the current week activity. I don't chase surges either, I don't even pay attention to them, so I am surprised when it shows up. But the few rides I have gotten a surge on, I have received the entire surge amount. Mind you the largest was $6. Comparing my cut to what the pax pays, and Uber takes, I look like I am coming out on top.

I'm also surprised when they tip me. I'm old school. A tip to me is still a thank you for a service rendered that seemed special to the tipper. 
I had one guy who tipped me $5 _before _I even started his ride on NYE. Got to the end of his street and jokingly told him to get out. I already got his tip. He had a sense of humor.

I do have hidden columns in my excel spreadsheets that convert the seconds reported on the trip time to a percentage of a minute then calculates the payment based on their hourly rate. The miles do appear to be reported in actual percentages. I haven't cracked their rounding yet, but it doesn't seem to be based on 5 when it comes to the third decimal position when it comes to the payment amount. (Told you I was anal when it comes to numbers. Put a calculation in front of me and I have to decipher it.) For the most part their calculations are on the money. (haha)

I signed up for a base pay, plus a mileage rate, plus an hourly rate, with a minimum fare supplement if the pax is too lazy to walk a couple blocks. If they want to toss a surge or bonus my way, thank you very much. I don't remember saying I would drive around for a percentage of what the person in the car was paying. That's just an additional stress factor.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

DriverMark said:


> In the end, it's what I make as that is what gets deposited into my account.
> 
> And occasionally, like a $45 airport ride that was 45 minutes, the PAX asked about pay and we talked about a lot of things. So we compared. He paid about $60 for the ride. I made $45 (Lyft) total, which included a $5 surge. Explained the whole we can't see what riders pay on Lyft. Lyft Cut 25% - Me 75%. Reasonable. Lyft didn't take a huge surge cut on this one. He ended up tipping $10 on top.
> 
> I worry sometimes it's the "perception" of Uber/Lyft stealing vs reality. Perception becomes reality over time if you think it enough. Even if it's not reality. That said, Uber/Lyfts lack transparency. Which contributes to false perception and in turn creates a false reality. And then folks get bent on the false reality. Although, as I said, lack of transparency doesn't allow us to know what the reality really is (or at least makes it difficult to get at).


I'll gladly post plenty of pics from Uber and Lyft(past) where they robbed me blind. The new surge program is ok but even with share adjustments it's still crazy on some rides what a TECH company thinks they deserve....


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## Trafficat (Dec 19, 2016)

The more I make the happier I am. The larger the cut the rideshare company makes, the greater opportunity I have for a tip by showing riders the fare breakdown


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## troothequalstroll (Oct 12, 2019)

I care.

It's about respeck, common curtsey, eddykettz, a finders or connection fee is 10% has been for pretty much all of eternity

These coward geeks think they can make more on all rides 1-10 miles than the driver who supplies the car, fuel, maintenance, takes the time & risk, performs the labor.... Naaaaaaaa

4800 if my 5000 ish rides all the same area same route to airport so I notice price changes, with all the scams they usually get the less than 28% xl cut from 4years ago, they get $9-18 on my 40 minute rides depending on who knows what lol

I rarely get into other fares I avoid 90+% of them I don't work so an app makes more than me, the toll gets more than me, the airport makes more than me, the city all make more than I did after my costs lol that's crazy talk

Ignore cancel sorry not sorry I don't need a McChicken that bad

Then instead of do right they try to hide the receipts or degrade it being easy to screenshot lmao

$8.80 rider payment
$4 Gross driver payment

Uber Lyft gets $4+

Dats 50% & has been for 4+ years and they try to hide it lol

Surges even more ridiculous rider pays $150-250+ and driver gets $9-14 hahaha hahaha the boldness the audacity I choke during bowl hits those days as requests come every single minute from every direction 20+ minutes away because no one getting picked up

What kind of come buccet risks their life to make some coward 2000 miles away $150+ an hour, totally ruined surge

Yes. I care at this point I should get 90+% of what's charged and middleman app can take no more than $1+ 10% of total charged

It's not the same as CEO of warehouse paying $11 an hour he's paying for warehouse, machines, tools, land, inventory, payroll of other people who actually produce things, these criminals buying mansions, real estate, office space & paying million dollar salaries for brilliant ideas like "free" snack pop ups that bloat the app and distract you from the road, they spend millions on hiring Philippines labor that speak my language at a 5th grade level & call it support, 90+% of the cowards behind the app don't produce anything but a salary that comes with employee benefits & stock options that they're all cashing out like gang Buster's


Greatest Ponzi ever

Just this month Travis k got 3 billi in cash after 10 years of theft at the $1 net or less drivers are paid on minimum fares that's 4 billion rides over 1 billion hours of labor for this doyche bagg

1 "man" 1 billion hours of labor simply amazing disruptive I tell ya


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Dekero said:


> where they robbed me blind


But, did both pay what you agreed to? Asking for a friend.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

reg barclay said:


> And what if they gave a months notice of the new terms, would it then be okay?


Actually yeah. It would give me time to consider if I want to accept the terms of the contract or not and it would give me time to find another source of income if I chose not to. It would also probably help to protect them from a driver saying they signed it under duress.


reg barclay said:


> Not sure about that. Are you guessing that it's legally unenforceable or is that a definitive statement from legal knowledge?


 that's legal knowledge&#128513; a legal contract is unenforceable for multiple reasons, which may apply here. However, specifically duress and more specifically economical duress, is a real thing. With no advanced notification and with your job being held over your head, that's not a good combo.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

SHalester said:


> But, did both pay what you agreed to? Asking for a friend.


Tell your friend to bite me


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> There seems to be a long running debate here (or maybe just difference in attitudes) between those who care how much pax pay (compared to how much the driver makes) and those who don't.
> 
> My personal attitude is that I don't really care how much pax pay for the ride, only what I get paid. And as long as I deem it worthwhile, I'll carry on driving for them, otherwise not.
> 
> Anyway, just curious what the root of the attitude difference is? Also, how do you feel about it, and why?


I don't really care about any of the above to be honest; this gig is up and it's time to move on.


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## tohunt4me (Nov 23, 2015)

Coachman said:


> I'm not sure about the question.
> 
> If Uber raises fares 25% but keeps my rate per mile and minute the same, that's the equivalent of a pay cut in the big scheme of things.
> 
> If you went into business with a partner sharing the profits 50/50 and the next year the profits rose but your partner kept 100% of the additional profits then I think you'd care about that.


Uber was only SUPPOSED TO TAKE 20% OF THE TOTAL !


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## MadTownUberD (Mar 11, 2017)

The main reason I care about how much they pay is I am a shareholder and therefore interested in optimal product pricing / market penetration / competition / revenues / profits.

As a driver, I mainly care about what I am paid, but to be honest I don't want riders to have to pay any more than taxis because I want them to be very happy with a superior product at a lower price point.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Dekero said:


> Tell your friend to bite me


you know, we've gone over this before. The correct usage is "biteme". One word, not two. OK? Got it? i noticed you didn't answer the question, tho. By design? Cat got your fingers? Or whatever the saying is....... my friend still wants to know.
&#128525;


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## MadTownUberD (Mar 11, 2017)

Whoa @Dekero I thought you quit??!?


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## Steve_TX (Feb 2, 2016)

tohunt4me said:


> Uber was only SUPPOSED TO TAKE 20% OF THE TOTAL !


And they are happily implying that's still all they take, or near that percentage. Just Google: "_how much does uber make on each ride?_"

I encourage all to click on the'Feedback' link and select "*This is misleading or inaccurate*" to put a stop to this misinformation and educate all about the truth of what percentage us drivers are making per ride.


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## freddieman (Oct 24, 2016)

Lets say ur in the drug business. Ur the driver. Would it make sense to get paid uber rates on drug deals? Doing drug runs comes with high risk. Driving daily for hours at a time is high risk. Doing surge time increases risks when transporting cuz u will go into a busy area. Higher the risk deserve higher pay. Go do work traffic for base pay then if u dont agree.


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## Dekero (Sep 24, 2019)

MadTownUberD said:


> Whoa @Dekero I thought you quit??!?


Guess you need to stop having thoughts...


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## Sepelion (Oct 28, 2019)

Pax are under a delusion that the person in the drivers seat is getting most of what they paid. The ire of the rates and surges is directed at the driver. 

Uber are crooks.


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## Lady WaWa (Oct 20, 2019)

Daisey77 said:


> I'm sorry but when we wake up and go to sign on to work, only to find out we are jobless unless we agree to these terms and the roof over our head is dependent on this job, yes we are signing this contract under duress. Making the contract legally unenforceable





reg barclay said:


> Not sure about that. Are you guessing that it's legally unenforceable or is that a definitive statement from legal knowledge? I can't really argue either way, as it's not something I know a lot about. But my guess is that it's a gray area at best.
> 
> And what if they gave a months notice of the new terms, would it then be okay?
> 
> I suspect you are ar!


I agree that coercion and duress are involved. I easily argue that anything in those terms of agreement is not enforceable. They didn't even offer an option to download the terms so that you can have a record of what you were just coerced into.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Lady WaWa said:


> I agree that coercion and duress are involved. I easily argue that anything in those terms of agreement is not enforceable. They didn't even offer an option to download the terms so that you can have a record of what you were just coerced into.


I was actually able to download this last agreement but previously that was never the case. In fact we couldn't even blow it up on our screen to be able to read it. I'm Android if that makes a difference.

By Uber and Lyft not giving us time to review the agreement in advance and by them giving it to us as we sign in and not allowing us to work without signing it, is economic duress, especially for full-time drivers. There's also the unconscionability aspect, large inequalities of power to negotiate the contract. This falls under duress as well and can make the agreement obviously unfair. I haven't really looked too deep into this but I'd almost bet there's some misrepresentation and non-disclosure issues as well


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## Oscar Levant (Aug 15, 2014)

reg barclay said:


> Nobody is deciding anything for both sides. When they offer us new terms, we have the right to tell them to shove it, and stop driving for them. We also have a right to counter them with our own terms. Realistically they wouldn't accept (except maybe if all drivers did so together), but bottom line, we are not forced to agree to their terms.


That's fine if you have another income ready to go in case you quit. For many, quitting is not that easy.



Daisey77 said:


> I was actually able to download this last agreement but previously that was never the case. In fact we couldn't even blow it up on our screen to be able to read it. I'm Android if that makes a difference.
> 
> By Uber and Lyft not giving us time to review the agreement in advance and by them giving it to us as we sign in and not allowing us to work without signing it, is economic duress, especially for full-time drivers. There's also the unconscionability aspect, large inequalities of power to negotiate the contract. This falls under duress as well and can make the agreement obviously unfair. I haven't really looked too deep into this but I'd almost bet there's some misrepresentation and non-disclosure issues as well


This is why drivers need a union. But, unless we can be employees, no union is possible, as far as I know.


----------



## Steve_TX (Feb 2, 2016)

Short trips suck!

From my last trip:
Pax paid: $8.54
Driver's cut: $3.70
Uber's cut: $4.84








I spoke to Uber Support about this and they said "Yes, but drivers are still getting the agreed mileage and time rates." Yes, drivers are getting the stated mileage/time rates, but why is Uber charging pax so much and not passing it down to drivers fairly?

This pricing impacts the tips drivers receive. Pax think that drivers still get 20%-25% of the fare. Pax think it is steep that Uber charges $10 for a short 2 mile trip. However, they assume drivers are making $7-$8 of that and are making out well for a 5 min trip. As Travis K. used to say "No need to tip!"

In actuality, we are making half of what pax think and Uber is taking up to 70% for the vig. While us drivers are spending our time, cars depreciation, gas, insurance, dealing with pax, having to clean our cars, etc. for as low as a 30% take.

F U Uber!

We need to scream loudly so pax understand our take is not that great on short trips. We also need to clear up misinformation about what drivers get from a fare.

Google results are severely inaccurate and/or outdated:

Go to Google and search: "_how much does uber make on each ride?_"

I encourage all to click on the '*Feedback*' link and select "*This is misleading or inaccurate*" to put a stop to this misinformation and educate all about the truth of what percentage us drivers are making per ride.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

tohunt4me said:


> Uber was only SUPPOSED TO TAKE 20% OF THE TOTAL !


For old geezers like us it was 20%. But a lot of the young uns here signed up when it was 25%.


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## Steve_TX (Feb 2, 2016)

reg barclay said:


> For old geezers like us it was 20%. But a lot of the young uns here signed up when it was 25%.


I signed up to drive Uber when their vig was 20% and we got 80%. When they first bumped their vig to 25%, we were grandfathered in at 20% for while.

Ahh, memories of when they respected their drivers.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Steve_TX said:


> I signed up to drive Uber when their vig was 20% and we got 80%. When they first bumped their vig to 25%, we were grandfathered in at 20% for while.
> 
> Ahh, memories of when they respected their drivers.


Last time I checked we are still grandfathered in. Meaning to say, that while we no longer get a percentage of what pax actually pay, our driver rate is set at 80% of the official mile/minute pax rate for our region (which upfront fares are supposedly based on). Whereas later signups get 75% of said rate. Check your driver rates against those of others in your area who signed up later.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Oscar Levant said:


> no union is possible


and no union unless 51% vote to unionize.


----------



## Kurt Halfyard (Dec 13, 2017)

If we are truly independant contractors, then there should be a certain amount of honesty and transparency in the way that the MotherCorp and the IC work. 
But with Uber and LYFT, all we get is gamification and other mind games. 
Lyft should never have taken out the feature where Drivers see what Passengers paid. 
This information might have kept the MotherCorp a wee bit more honest. 
The result is that now LYFT Drivers marinate in paranoia and suspicion (i.e. They are still charging for SURGE, but giving the driver nothing...Those Pink PPZ's are too damn rare in my market, and have no rhyme or reason to them...further exacerbating frustrations). The only disinfectant is sunlight.


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## Daisey77 (Jan 13, 2016)

Steve_TX said:


> I signed up to drive Uber when their vig was 20% and we got 80%. When they first bumped their vig to 25%, we were grandfathered in at 20% for while.
> 
> Ahh, memories of when they respected their drivers.





reg barclay said:


> Last time I checked we are still grandfathered in. Meaning to say, that while we no longer get a percentage of what pax actually pay, our driver rate is set at 80% of the official mile/minute pax rate for our region (which upfront fares are supposedly based on). Whereas later signups get 75% of said rate. Check your driver rates against those of others in your area who signed up later.


We are still "grandfathered" in except on the new platforms such as comfort. In these instances the new drivers get more of a pay increase then we do since the pay rate is the same for both groups of drivers. On uberX the newer drivers make about $0.05 less per mile and about $0.01 less per minute

Regarding your comment that you deleted . . . 







Exactly! them holding our job over our head to get us to sign the agreement, is Duress . . . It's a threat. It might not be a physical threat but it definitely is a threat . . . economic force. No one needs to do anything legally to reverse anything. There's nothing to reverse. If they tried to enforce their terms of service by taking legal action on us, drivers, then the issue of whether the agreement is enforceable or not would or could come into play. More than likely as our defense.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> There seems to be a long running debate here (or maybe just difference in attitudes) between those who care how much pax pay (compared to how much the driver makes) and those who don't.
> 
> My personal attitude is that I don't really care how much pax pay for the ride, only what I get paid. And as long as I deem it worthwhile, I'll carry on driving for them, otherwise not.
> 
> Anyway, just curious what the root of the attitude difference is? Also, how do you feel about it, and why?


Unlike you, I hate leaving money on the table, regardless of what I'm being paid, especially when I'm the one doing virtually all the work, absorbing virtually all of the overhead, and taking virtually all the risk.

Even though Don King was able to get big purses for his fighters, Larry Holmes and others sued his ass off for grabbing what they felt was an excessive cut, and unlike Uber drivers, Holmes and other fighters made millions of dollars.



reg barclay said:


> Nobody is deciding anything for both sides. When they offer us new terms, we have the right to tell them to shove it, and stop driving for them. We also have a right to counter them with our own terms. Realistically they wouldn't accept (except maybe if all drivers did so together), but bottom line, we are not forced to agree to their terms.


Your post is nothing but Uber HQ bullshit propaganda.


----------



## nonononodrivethru (Mar 25, 2019)

reg barclay said:


> There seems to be a long running debate here (or maybe just difference in attitudes) between those who care how much pax pay (compared to how much the driver makes) and those who don't.
> 
> My personal attitude is that I don't really care how much pax pay for the ride, only what I get paid. And as long as I deem it worthwhile, I'll carry on driving for them, otherwise not.
> 
> Anyway, just curious what the root of the attitude difference is? Also, how do you feel about it, and why?


If I'm an independent contractor and they are a technology company, you're damn straight I care.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Your post is nothing but Uber HQ bullshit propaganda.


That may be the case, but it's still true. Nobody is pointing a gun at any of us and forcing us to work at these rates. Many drivers (myself included) signed up when rates were at their highest (not sure if you drove back then, but at that point, base rates were high enough that you probably wouldn't have complained). And yes, I feel those drivers were genuinely aggreived that rates were dropped.

However, all that was many years ago. IMO, at this point, the vast majority of drivers active on UP, started driving when rates were pretty much the same as they currently are. The fact that they continue driving month after month, year after year. Signifies to me, that in spite of all its flaws, this gig is better than any other oppprtunities or options they have. Although I will grant that many are probably unaware of the real costs involved in driving.

I am not advocating that Uber is a paragon of morality vis a vis its drivers. But I've long since given up expecting that from billion dollar companies. I detect your arguments come with moral indignation and concern. But are you as concerned about worker conditions and treatment (probably much worse) that happens all over the world? My assumption (and I mean this with no disrespect) is that while you may be concerned about those things to some degree, you are likely not taking to internet forums and actively complaining about them, in the same way you are here, about Uber. This would indicate, that in spite of any moral arguments, your issues with Uber here, stem in large part from practical self interest (due to the fact that you drive for them) rather than abstract moral altruism. That being the case, from a practical point of view, I would argue that since I can do little or nothing to change current Uber policies, I see little point in ranting and raving about how much pax pay etc. Rather, as long as its worth it, I'll drive for them, otherwise not.


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## TXUbering (May 9, 2018)

I drove a pax on NYE and they told me that their cost was $90. My cut was about $30. I'm actually the one that is risking more by driving NYE. The chances of a drunk pax vomiting in my car (even though Uber has changed their Cleanup Fee to their benefit) or the chances of me getting into an accident (had 2 near misses) were increased, yet I did not see that reflected in what I was taking home.


----------



## negeorgia (Feb 1, 2015)

Aw Jeez said:


> Why would I want to know what Uber/Lyft charge the customer? There is nothing I can do about it or the percentage they give to me. I take the deal or I do not. Can a too-high fare impact our tips and possibly our ratings? Sure. For me personally, this is why I avoid driving during a surge. Yeah, the extra money might be nice, but is it worth it considering the possible downside? Not for me! If I ever did work a surge (and knew about it - not the secret surges), I think I'd preemptively say something sympathetic to the passenger, apologizing for the surge pricing and wishing more cars were working. Then I'd switch the conversation over to the event they're just coming from. If they enjoyed it and you get them talking about it, it _might_ take some of the sting out of the surge fare. Maybe. I hope I never find out.


Easier to have your attitude when your market pays 97 cents per mile.

Drive for 60 pennies per mile and see if you still avoid surge.


----------



## nonononodrivethru (Mar 25, 2019)

Anything more than 30% is the company stealing market value from the drivers. Especially with the way they have the contract set up as a contract between passenger and driver.

They're avoiding complete responsibilities from the ride calling themselves booking agencies and taking upwards of 60% of the fare. When they do this, they are disguising themselves as technology companies when indeed they are actually cab companies. Any court will see this, it's just a matter of time.

What is most insulting, is that as independent contractors we should be allowed to negotiate our rates and prevent both platforms from lowering the rates. Everything they're doing presently is treating us as employees. Go have your day in court or arbitration and make them pay you. We built up their entire network and they did a bait and switch and now they are deactivating drivers who built their platform simply because now they've become an inconvenience.

If we were to be true independent contractors, we would be able to negotiate a $1.25 a mile minimum rate for X nationwide, and both platforms would STILL be getting a deal at that rate.

As it stands, both platforms hold all of the leverage while disguising themselves as booking agencies and technology companies. This has been described as legal fiction.

If you disagree with anything that I posted above, you are an idiot.


----------



## mrpjfresh (Aug 16, 2016)

I'll stop caring when they stop with this whole fallacious "service fee" argument. Aside from not knowing things like trip length or payout amount upfront, drivers never know the amount we essentially are paying Uber and Lyft for the privilege to drive around their customers. Heck, _they_ don't even know because it comes down to what a passenger is willing to pay. And, yes, it matters because this amount is passed onto drivers for tax purposes. Go ahead and charge the customers whatever they are willing to pay; that's capitalism. But don't pass off this this variable, nebulous amount as something drivers have anything to do with. That's total bullshit.


----------



## Virginia is for lovers (Nov 22, 2019)

I remember days of 5X 6X 7X surge, and massive bonuses like $500 for 120 trips. And oh yeah, 3.4X boost zones and $50 hourly guarantees. If I start thinking about what Uber is doing to us and how much money it is hiding from me, I will be the first to become a mental patient. I will lose my mind.

Just keep your head down and drive. Or quit. There is nothing in the middle. It is waste of your energy.


----------



## nonononodrivethru (Mar 25, 2019)

Virginia is for lovers said:


> I remember days of 5X 6X 7X surge, and massive bonuses like $500 for 120 trips. And oh yeah, 3.4X boost zones and $50 hourly guarantees. If I start thinking about what Uber is doing to us and how much money it is hiding from me, I will be the first to become a mental patient. I will lose my mind.
> 
> Just keep your head down and drive. Or quit. There is nothing in the middle. It is waste of your energy.


Actually, in the middle is the notion to fight for your rights and to sue both companies for miss classification of employment and to get paid what you're due in a settlement check.


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## Virginia is for lovers (Nov 22, 2019)

nonononodrivethru said:


> Actually, in the middle is the notion to fight for your rights and to sue both companies for miss classification of employment and to get paid what you're due in a settlement check.


Uber pays me by mileage and time. There is nothing in the agreement about surge. My best revenge, the ultimate revenge will be when I get my CDL and uninstall both these apps. I have no energy for lawsuits. Karma will take care of them.


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## nonononodrivethru (Mar 25, 2019)

Virginia is for lovers said:


> Uber pays me by mileage and time. There is nothing in the agreement about surge. My best revenge, the ultimate revenge will be when I get my CDL and uninstall both these apps. I have no energy for lawsuits. Karma will take care of them.


You're ignoring all of the legal aspects that you are an independent contractor and the the ride agreement is between you and the passenger.

Uber doesn't pay you. YOU pay them.


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## rideshareMN (Jan 25, 2017)

as to the OP's question...information is knowledge, and knowledge is a conduit to power; TBH, saying you don't care what the PAX pays says quite a bit about you


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

reg barclay said:


> There seems to be a long running debate here (or maybe just difference in attitudes) between those who care how much pax pay (compared to how much the driver makes) and those who don't.
> 
> My personal attitude is that I don't really care how much pax pay for the ride, only what I get paid. And as long as I deem it worthwhile, I'll carry on driving for them, otherwise not.
> 
> Anyway, just curious what the root of the attitude difference is? Also, how do you feel about it, and why?


I Don't actually care what they pay for a ride beyond how much I can earn by _$$ Long Tripping $$ _
Them without the RS companies charging them more.

Last year Goober and Gryft earned 22.3% of my booked fares. Not 40-60.



sellkatsell44 said:


> I think the reason it matters is the correlation between tipping > amount paid I guess? It doesn't usually make a difference for me and the amount I have in my head, but I do tend to tip the difference between what I saved on top of the amount I'm already tipping if it makes sense?
> 
> Like when someone comps my drinks or takes 10-20% off my bill (why I don't know but it's always nice) then I will just tip heavier.
> 
> it annoys me that I pay $xx and the driver only gets $x. But ultimately, can't do anything about that so &#129335;&#127995;‍♀&#129300;


When I take RS in my market I always direct the driver to a route that makes them more money and Goober makes less


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> That may be the case, but it's still true. Nobody is pointing a gun at any of us and forcing us to work at these rates.


Uber shills/asskissers/defenders, etc consistently focus on the literal meaning of the words "force" and "forced" in their defense of Uber.

Considering how you choose to be so literal when you think it helps your arguments by denying that Uber "forces" drivers to "agree" to their terms in order to keep their jobs, I find it funny that you chose to discard your literal meaning routine when you used the "pointing a gun" expression.

You of all people should know that having a gun pointed at your head or a knife held against your throat doesn't "force" you to do anything you don't want to do. In the same way you claimed drivers can tell Uber to shove it you can tell the person holding the gun or knife to shove it as well.

In both cases the results of saying "shove it" will probably be unpleasant, but nevertheless you aren't "forced" to do anything.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Uber shills/asskissers/defenders, etc consistently focus on the literal meaning of the words "force" and "forced" in their defense of Uber.
> 
> Considering how you choose to be so literal when you think it helps your arguments by denying that Uber "forces" drivers to "agree" to their terms in order to keep their jobs, I find it funny that you chose to discard your literal meaning routine when you used the "pointing a gun" expression.
> 
> ...


As I said in my earlier post. Those drivers who signed up when rates were high, then Uber suddenly came and lowered them, I fully understand their gripe.

But rates have been as low as they are now for four whole years (the infamous rate drop was Jan 16). Most drivers here willingly signed up to drive way after that, with full disclosure as to what rates they get paid. Those that drove before that (myself included) have had four whole years to avail themselves of any other opportunities they have. (Even upfront pricing started over two years ago now). All this indicates to me, that with all its flaws, those drivers still see it as better than any other opportunities they have.

Bottom line. All active drivers on this forum, either signed up with full knowledge of the low rates, or have continued driving for four years in spite of them. So I don't see any guns being pointed, or anyone being forced, either literally, or metaphorically.


----------



## MiamiKid (May 24, 2016)

reg barclay said:


> There seems to be a long running debate here (or maybe just difference in attitudes) between those who care how much pax pay (compared to how much the driver makes) and those who don't.
> 
> My personal attitude is that I don't really care how much pax pay for the ride, only what I get paid. And as long as I deem it worthwhile, I'll carry on driving for them, otherwise not.
> 
> Anyway, just curious what the root of the attitude difference is? Also, how do you feel about it, and why?


Not at all concerned with what the pax pays. In fact rarely, if ever, even glance at it.

And totally do not understand why anyone would remotely care. It's only a source of stress. However, I constantly monitor what I'm receiving per hour, mile and the entire online time spent per week.

When that no longer works, am outta here. In fact, have already completely stopped all events, concerts and late night bar pickups.



reg barclay said:


> As I said in my earlier post. Those drivers who signed up when rates were high, then Uber suddenly came and lowered them, I fully understand their gripe.
> 
> But rates have been as low as they are now for four whole years (the infamous rate drop was Jan 16). Most drivers here willingly signed up to drive way after that, with full disclosure as to what rates they get paid. Those that drove before that (myself included) have had four whole years to avail themselves of any other opportunities they have. (Even upfront pricing started over two years ago now). All this indicates to me, that with all its flaws, those drivers still see it as better than any other opportunities they have.
> 
> Bottom line. All active drivers on this forum, either signed up with full knowledge of the low rates, or have continued driving for four years in spite of them. So I don't see any guns being pointed, or anyone being forced, either literally, or metaphorically.


Strongly agree. &#128077;



Nats121 said:


> Uber shills/asskissers/defenders, etc consistently focus on the literal meaning of the words "force" and "forced" in their defense of Uber.
> 
> Considering how you choose to be so literal when you think it helps your arguments by denying that Uber "forces" drivers to "agree" to their terms in order to keep their jobs, I find it funny that you chose to discard your literal meaning routine when you used the "pointing a gun" expression.
> 
> ...


Staunch Uber defender here. Call what you want.


----------



## XLnoGas (Dec 20, 2019)

DriverMark said:


> In the end, it's what I make as that is what gets deposited into my account.
> 
> And occasionally, like a $45 airport ride that was 45 minutes, the PAX asked about pay and we talked about a lot of things. So we compared. He paid about $60 for the ride. I made $45 (Lyft) total, which included a $5 surge. Explained the whole we can't see what riders pay on Lyft. Lyft Cut 25% - Me 75%. Reasonable. Lyft didn't take a huge surge cut on this one. He ended up tipping $10 on top.
> 
> I worry sometimes it's the "perception" of Uber/Lyft stealing vs reality. Perception becomes reality over time if you think it enough. Even if it's not reality. That said, Uber/Lyfts lack transparency. Which contributes to false perception and in turn creates a false reality. And then folks get bent on the false reality. Although, as I said, lack of transparency doesn't allow us to know what the reality really is (or at least makes it difficult to get at).


Lyft has stopped the whole 20% commission a long time ago when they saw people kept signing up to drive after raising their commission to 25%+. Same with Uber. That power drive bonus back in the day was pretty sweet..the one where you could get back your 20% I'd drive more lyft if they brought it back in some shape or form.



reg barclay said:


> As I said in my earlier post. Those drivers who signed up when rates were high, then Uber suddenly came and lowered them, I fully understand their gripe.
> 
> But rates have been as low as they are now for four whole years (the infamous rate drop was Jan 16). Most drivers here willingly signed up to drive way after that, with full disclosure as to what rates they get paid. Those that drove before that (myself included) have had four whole years to avail themselves of any other opportunities they have. (Even upfront pricing started over two years ago now). All this indicates to me, that with all its flaws, those drivers still see it as better than any other opportunities they have.
> 
> Bottom line. All active drivers on this forum, either signed up with full knowledge of the low rates, or have continued driving for four years in spite of them. So I don't see any guns being pointed, or anyone being forced, either literally, or metaphorically.


Only as of very late has Uber been ****ing me over with the commission. I use to only see others with 40%+ commissions, until I had a $350 ride only pay me $200. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TIME/DISTANCE. UBER WILL GIVE THE DRIVER SIGNIFICANT SHARE OF THE SURGE, ITS BULLSHIT, TAKING 40% is not giving me a significant share in my opinion. Significant is not even a word you can give a number to.

WE ARE NOT INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS.
independent contractors can charge what they want, we cannot.


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## MiamiKid (May 24, 2016)

XLnoGas said:


> Lyft has stopped the whole 20% commission a long time ago when they saw people kept signing up to drive after raising their commission to 25%+. Same with Uber. That power drive bonus back in the day was pretty sweet..the one where you could get back your 20% I'd drive more lyft if they brought it back in some shape or form.
> 
> 
> Only as of very late has Uber been @@@@ing me over with the commission. I use to only see others with 40%+ commissions, until I had a $350 ride only pay me $200. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TIME/DISTANCE. UBER WILL GIVE THE DRIVER SIGNIFICANT SHARE OF THE SURGE, ITS BULLSHIT, TAKING 40% is not giving me a significant share in my opinion. Significant is not even a word you can give a number to.
> ...


Been an independent contractor my entire life. We are INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS. Period.

No, independent contractors cannot charge whatever they like. As always, taking Uber's side 100%.

My two cents.
&#128526;


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## UStaxman (Aug 14, 2016)

sellkatsell44 said:


> I think the reason it matters is the correlation between tipping > amount paid I guess? It doesn't usually make a difference for me and the amount I have in my head, but I do tend to tip the difference between what I saved on top of the amount I'm already tipping if it makes sense?
> 
> Like when someone comps my drinks or takes 10-20% off my bill (why I don't know but it's always nice) then I will just tip heavier.
> 
> it annoys me that I pay $xx and the driver only gets $x. But ultimately, can't do anything about that so &#129335;&#127995;‍♀&#129300;


I don't notice a correlation with tipping on 'Surge Rides' .... 
I treat all riders the same regardless of 'surge price'.... I never discuss rates with riders 
- if they ask I simply share that the fare is calculated by 'time and distance'. If they ask about surge, I say 'the surge is created when there is a shortage drivers so the app will increase a 'surge multiplier' to incentivize more drivers. NEVER discuss in more detail - certainly never discuss 'fixed surge or 'multiplier'. 
- if they further ask - which they very rarely- I simply say we get a percentage and Uber maintains a percentage for Insurance and their operations.
- conversations never go beyond that - and again these scenarios have only been but a handful over 5000 rides! End of the day it's a service industry- passengers don't really care that much beyond 'making conversation' they just want a 'positive ride experience' - safe clean efficient courteous ride ....

Occasionally I check the 'rider payment' and compare to my cut ....
- some rides Uber makes more than 25% some rides they make much less than 25%....it seems to balance out. 
Like others have mentioned I don't focus on that ... simply focus what is within your control and at the end of the day are you satisfied with your net profit? If not then move on- this gig is not for everyone.

Regarding rates: Rider is quoted a 'fixed price' including surge factor based on an 'estimated route'. To maximize your pay plan if you know of alternate routes which might be quicker time wise (but the same or more miles) then maximize the distance. Within reason .. I never discuss routes with riders- if they question I respond that based on my experience this way is quicker because less traffic, etc.


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## sellkatsell44 (Oct 25, 2015)

I


UStaxman said:


> I don't notice a correlation with tipping on 'Surge Rides' ....
> I treat all riders the same regardless of 'surge price'.... I never discuss rates with riders
> - if they ask I simply share that the fare is calculated by 'time and distance'. If they ask about surge, I say 'the surge is created when there is a shortage drivers so the app will increase a 'surge multiplier' to incentivize more drivers. NEVER discuss in more detail - certainly never discuss 'fixed surge or 'multiplier'.
> - if they further ask - which they very rarely- I simply say we get a percentage and Uber maintains a percentage for Insurance and their operations.
> ...


im a rider.

but thanks for the thoroughness of your perspective


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## kc ub'ing! (May 27, 2016)

Virginia is for lovers said:


> Just keep your head down and drive. Or quit. There is nothing in the middle. It is waste of your energy.


Sharp post.


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## XLnoGas (Dec 20, 2019)

MiamiKid said:


> Been an independent contractor my entire life. We are INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS. Period.
> 
> No, independent contractors cannot charge whatever they like. As always, taking Uber's side 100%.
> 
> ...


Not in California my dude? Sucks for you, I'm looking forward to my settlement check.


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## MiamiKid (May 24, 2016)

XLnoGas said:


> Not in California my dude? Sucks for you, I'm looking forward to my settlement check.


Yup, drive in ruby red Georgia. No liberal, AB5 here. Am an independent contractor and will stay that way.

In California, AB5 is being challenged and unlikely the ridiculous law will become reality.

And no, you will NOT be receiving a settlement check.

And although I'm in Georgia, supporting Uber's side 100% in California.

My two cents.
&#128526;


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## Tampa Bay Hauler (May 2, 2019)

MadTownUberD said:


> Whoa @Dekero I thought you quit??!?


I was about to welcome him back to the forum. Even gave him a thumbs up on one of his post. He was being nice to people and giving respectful answers. It didn't take long for his $ss to get it's pucker back in it and him proudly show it.


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## XLnoGas (Dec 20, 2019)

MiamiKid said:


> Yup, drive in ruby red Georgia. No liberal, AB5 here. Am an independent contractor and will stay that way.
> 
> In California, AB5 is being challenged and unlikely the ridiculous law will become reality.
> 
> ...


Think you know everything huh? I have a lawsuit pending with a private lawyer. Settlement conference is already scheduled.


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## MiamiKid (May 24, 2016)

XLnoGas said:


> Think you know everything huh? I have a lawsuit pending with a private lawyer. Settlement conference is already scheduled.


Doubtful you'll receive anything; however, good for you if so.


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## XLnoGas (Dec 20, 2019)

MiamiKid said:


> Doubtful you'll receive anything; however, good for you if so.


Thanks for being open minded for once.


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## MadTownUberD (Mar 11, 2017)

Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> I was about to welcome him back to the forum. Even gave him a thumbs up on one of his post. He was being nice to people and giving respectful answers. It didn't take long for his $ss to get it's pucker back in it and him proudly show it.


Bark worse than bite? I'll bet he gives top notch service to pax in his BMW.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

MadTownUberD said:


> Bark worse than bite?


that would apply to many members here. Something about being brave behind a KB? In person a little fuzzy puppy dog. :thumbup:


----------



## MadTownUberD (Mar 11, 2017)

SHalester said:


> that would apply to many members here. Something about being brave behind a KB? In person a little fuzzy puppy dog. :thumbup:


Did you just assume my input device? I'm triggered! I use a smartphone with a smart keyboard, thank you very much.


----------



## Sepelion (Oct 28, 2019)

Amos69 said:


> I Don't actually care what they pay for a ride beyond how much I can earn by _$$ Long Tripping $$ _
> Them without the RS companies charging them more.
> 
> Last year Goober and Gryft earned 22.3% of my booked fares. Not 40-60.
> ...


Riders generally aren't dumb: they live where you drive them, they know you're going a long way and always start yapping "why this way" and then they backseat drive, because, you know, they paid 15 bucks for that ride you're getting 7 bucks for and are already mad that they had to give you 15 bucks (in their head).

Get out of this job asap.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

MadTownUberD said:


> Did you just assume my input device?


well, not sure how hold you are, or how long you have been online but what I posted IS the saying from folks who have been online for more than a minute.
KB, pad, what have you. Kinda a fact some meek, shy users suddenly become bears online. In person they are puppy dogs, or bumps on a log (another well known saying).


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## Amos69 (May 17, 2019)

Sepelion said:


> Riders generally aren't dumb: they live where you drive them, they know you're going a long way and always start yapping "why this way" and then they backseat drive, because, you know, they paid 15 bucks for that ride you're getting 7 bucks for and are already mad that they had to give you 15 bucks (in their head).
> 
> Get out of this job asap.


Citizens are a very small part of my business, and IDGAF when they do want to push back I can rationalize anything like a good Wrongpublican.

Most of my clients are tourists and business people.


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## nonononodrivethru (Mar 25, 2019)

Amos69 said:


> Citizens are a very small part of my business, and IDGAF when they do want to push back I can rationalize anything like a good Wrongpublican.
> 
> Most of my clients are tourists and business people.


Yay! Politics where they don't belong! Yay!


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## troothequalstroll (Oct 12, 2019)

reg barclay said:


> As I said in my earlier post. Those drivers who signed up when rates were high, then Uber suddenly came and lowered them, I fully understand their gripe.
> 
> But rates have been as low as they are now for four whole years (the infamous rate drop was Jan 16). Most drivers here willingly signed up to drive way after that, with full disclosure as to what rates they get paid. Those that drove before that (myself included) have had four whole years to avail themselves of any other opportunities they have. (Even upfront pricing started over two years ago now). All this indicates to me, that with all its flaws, those drivers still see it as better than any other opportunities they have.
> 
> Bottom line. All active drivers on this forum, either signed up with full knowledge of the low rates, or have continued driving for four years in spite of them. So I don't see any guns being pointed, or anyone being forced, either literally, or metaphorically.


Coercion deception fraud is force same as a gun and that's the blank contract hiding details and threatening punishing you after doing 3rd grade math and cancelling

Transparent means driver rider Uber all sees the same receipt , rider knows approximate amount they're paying, driver knows approximate amount they be paid, how much weight(# of pax), how long contract takes to fulfill(miles minutes) & where they will be after the contract ends

Not hiding receipts, editing them afterwards, etc etc etc

You can't agree or sign up to work for free LMAO, blank contracts aren't binding, & if the terms in them require free labor or pay less than minium wage after basic costs they contain illegal terms & are in breach, can't agree to those either

I agreed to terms in 2015 everyother agreement was made under duress with illegal terms which puts them in breach

I do not agree to provide free labor

This is why they're being banned & sued everywhere, why riders getting cancelled on is more common then being picked up & they're changing app in Cali in hopes of not being fined daily for violating the law every chance they get


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## MiamiKid (May 24, 2016)

troothequalstroll said:


> Coercion deception fraud is force same as a gun and that's the blank contract hiding details and threatening punishing you after doing 3rd grade math and cancelling
> 
> Transparent means driver rider Uber all sees the same receipt , rider knows approximate amount they're paying, driver knows approximate amount they be paid, how much weight(# of pax), how long contract takes to fulfill(miles minutes) & where they will be after the contract ends
> 
> ...


UBER ROCKS!

Take their side 100%.
&#128077;


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## The Gift of Fish (Mar 17, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> Nobody is deciding anything for both sides. When they offer us new terms, we have the right to tell them to shove it, and stop driving for them. We also have a right to counter them with our own terms. Realistically they wouldn't accept (except maybe if all drivers did so together), but bottom line, we are not forced to agree to their terms.


A lot of people are evidently having trouble accepting that the deal has been significantly altered to our detriment and that maybe it's time to start looking for something else to do.


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## UbaBrah (Oct 25, 2019)

I care if for no other reason than if the pax is paying $20 and I see 8 or 9, they will likely act entitled and think they're king shit, because they're basically paying Uber Black money for an UberX trip. Most pax I speak to have no idea we're getting such a small cut of the fare. And whenever I notice that pax got a relatively "bad" deal on the fare, they tend to act haughty and rate more strictly.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Your post is nothing but Uber HQ bullshit propaganda.


This is remarkably unfair. It is perfectly compatible to say "if you don't like it, leave" and to also want fair pay for
drivers. While encouraging gig workers to not take the contract if they don't like the terms is not a pleasant thing to say, it is absolutely the rational thing for people to do. Vote with your limited economic capital and do not drive for bad market rates. It is your time and your car and your life.

The thing I see lacking in many critiques of Uber is how they are supposed to make money while keeping everyone happy (passengers and investors especially). One the reasons a deeper economic critique isn't forthcoming is that the average rideshare critic doesn't actually study this stuff and none of them are actually in the business. No one here sits in the board room or knows the pressure of keeping such a massively growing business afloat as an executive. I don't have any real sympathy for these powerful people, but no one here understands what is really going on inside Uber or Lyft. And that is why the conversations often go nowhere.

Although it is almost certain that Uber and Lyft are run less well than they could be, the economics are not favorable for maintaining low prices for passengers, paying drivers more, and running at least the same quality service from the apps. Unions and better labor conditions can't fix the business if the model isn't working well for all three parties.

And driver pay will continue to stagnate or go down. They are the weakest link as they neither own indispensable capital nor are they driving demand on their own. As any MBA grad will tell you, drivers in the rideshare model are a cost center and can be paid variably without disrupting the business model. In a traditional taxi company, drivers and cars are the capital and are much more indispensable. Welcome to the future of capitalism. The wait time on your support request is 1 hour.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> This is remarkably unfair. It is perfectly compatible to say "if you don't like it, leave" and to also want fair pay for
> drivers. While encouraging gig workers to not take the contract if they don't like the terms is not a pleasant thing to say, it is absolutely the rational thing for people to do. Vote with your limited economic capital and do not drive for bad market rates. It is your time and your car and your life.
> 
> The thing I see lacking in many critiques of Uber is how they are supposed to make money while keeping everyone happy (passengers and investors especially). One the reasons a deeper economic critique isn't forthcoming is that the average rideshare critic doesn't actually study this stuff and none of them are actually in the business. No one here sits in the board room or knows the pressure of keeping such a massively growing business afloat as an executive. I don't have any real sympathy for these powerful people, but no one here understands what is really going on inside Uber or Lyft. And that is why the conversations often go nowhere.
> ...


Thanks, you clarified a lot of what I was trying to say.

I think there's a tendency for some drivers to equate statements of pragmatic acquiescence to the reality of the situation, with acquiescence to the legal or moral issues involved. Which isn't necessarily the case at all.


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## MiamiKid (May 24, 2016)

Nats121 said:


> Unlike you, I hate leaving money on the table, regardless of what I'm being paid, especially when I'm the one doing virtually all the work, absorbing virtually all of the overhead, and taking virtually all the risk.
> 
> Even though Don King was able to get big purses for his fighters, Larry Holmes and others sued his ass off for grabbing what they felt was an excessive cut, and unlike Uber drivers, Holmes and other fighters made millions of dollars.
> 
> ...


Know what pal? Happen to support Uber Corporate all the way!
&#128077;

Don't like it? TS. Just motivates me to support them, and their policies, even stronger. Much stronger.

My two cents.
&#128526;


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## Tampa Bay Hauler (May 2, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> This is remarkably unfair. It is perfectly compatible to say "if you don't like it, leave" and to also want fair pay for
> drivers. While encouraging gig workers to not take the contract if they don't like the terms is not a pleasant thing to say, it is absolutely the rational thing for people to do. Vote with your limited economic capital and do not drive for bad market rates. It is your time and your car and your life.
> 
> The thing I see lacking in many critiques of Uber is how they are supposed to make money while keeping everyone happy (passengers and investors especially). One the reasons a deeper economic critique isn't forthcoming is that the average rideshare critic doesn't actually study this stuff and none of them are actually in the business. No one here sits in the board room or knows the pressure of keeping such a massively growing business afloat as an executive. I don't have any real sympathy for these powerful people, but no one here understands what is really going on inside Uber or Lyft. And that is why the conversations often go nowhere.
> ...


You have done a decent job in your post. But,I'm going to throw in a "But." Labor is determined by the supply of it. No differently than pork bellies. There is an over supply of drivers so don't expect any more money anytime soon. In our economy it is a simple matter of supply and demand. Uber can raise prices on riders until they balk and stop buying and never raise pay for drivers. When there is a driver shortage then drivers will get a raise. At the point we are right now Uber could probably lower driver pay again and still have enough drivers. Everybody wants to use this word "fair." Fair has nothing to do with pricing,hiring or firing.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> You have done a decent job in your post. But,I'm going to throw in a "But." Labor is determined by the supply of it. No differently than pork bellies. There is an over supply of drivers so don't expect any more money anytime soon. In our economy it is a simple matter of supply and demand. Uber can raise prices on riders until they balk and stop buying and never raise pay for drivers. When there is a driver shortage then drivers will get a raise. At the point we are right now Uber could probably lower driver pay again and still have enough drivers. Everybody wants to use this word "fair." Fair has nothing to do with pricing,hiring or firing.


Thanks and I totally agree with what you have added.

Employees in a system where their pay is guaranteed can get paid "fairly" even with fluctuations in supply or demand, at least until a certain breaking point. This is not how the gig economy works, and it is by design. Sign up for the apps at your own risk. It can pay well or it can pay poorly, even in the same market.

If the current conditions continue, pay adjusted for inflation and cost of living will trend down. It will take some huge disruptions, like Uber or Lyft going out of business or a massive economic shift to change this trend.


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## Tampa Bay Hauler (May 2, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> Thanks and I totally agree with what you have added.
> 
> Employees in a system where their pay is guaranteed can get paid "fairly" even with fluctuations in supply or demand, at least until a certain breaking point. This is not how the gig economy works, and it is by design. Sign up for the apps at your own risk. It can pay well or it can pay poorly, even in the same market.
> 
> If the current conditions continue, pay adjusted for inflation and cost of living will trend down. It will take some huge disruptions, like Uber or Lyft going out of business or a massive economic shift to change this trend.


I'm still having trouble with your "fair" word. One brick layer is guaranteed $30 per hour and is paid fairly. Another brick layer is paid $30 an hour is paid unfairly. "Fair" has no value. This is what people are saying. If you don't believe you are being treated "fairly' why are you still standing here? Obviously, the options are less "fair" than what you are doing or you would choose another option.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> I'm still having trouble with your "fair" word. One brick layer is guaranteed $30 per hour and is paid fairly. Another brick layer is paid $30 and hour is paid unfairly. "Fair" has no value. This is what people are saying. If you don't believe you are being treated "fairly' why are you still standing here? Obviously, the options are less "fair" than what you are doing or you would choose another option.


Fair is what someone perceives as fair. It's all subjective. You couldn't objectively measure it if you tried, and any attempt at setting a "fair" price or wage as policy would be disagreed with by some people.

I think people who think Uber is unfair (which it is, I guess) should read some more labor history. Start with the shipping industry. Then look at mining and manufacturing. Then look at serfdom.


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## Tampa Bay Hauler (May 2, 2019)

waldowainthrop said:


> Fair is what someone perceives as fair. It's all subjective. You couldn't objectively measure it if you tried, and any attempt at setting a "fair" price or wage as policy would be disagreed with by some people.
> 
> I think people who think Uber is unfair (which it is, I guess) should read some more labor history. Start with the shipping industry. Then look at mining and manufacturing. Then look at serfdom.


That is all true. You can go back and look at the history of business and labor. It is and interesting story. One everyone should study. Right now is right now and people have to do what is best for them right now. A person might be able to learn a trade or get a college degree before AB5 comes into law and spreads across the nation. It can't be counted on to ever happen. Seek happiness where you can find it.


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## troothequalstroll (Oct 12, 2019)

Fair wages aren't human rights, minimum wages actually are


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## MiamiKid (May 24, 2016)

troothequalstroll said:


> Fair wages aren't human rights, minimum wages actually are


I certainly support reasonable minimum wages; however, don't view them as a human right whatsoever.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> If you don't believe you are being treated "fairly' why are you still standing here? Obviously, the options are less "fair" than what you are doing or you would choose another option.


Good point. But other options being less fair, does not necessitate that someone's current option is fair.



waldowainthrop said:


> Employees in a system where their pay is guaranteed can get paid "fairly" even with fluctuations in supply or demand, at least until a certain breaking point. This is not how the gig economy works, and it is by design. Sign up for the apps at your own risk. It can pay well or it can pay poorly, even in the same market.


The gig economy system occupies a pretty new position in employment options. Which I think is what creates a lot of the confusion. Most of us take for granted that if someone opens their own business, they could make a large amount, a decent amount, a small amount, or even lose money. All at their own risk, with nobody guaranteeing it will be worth it for them. But many approach gig apps more like a traditional job, and assume there is some guarantee that the work offered will be worth it, or at least should be. I guess their argument would be that they lack the decision making prerogatives that a small business owner or contractor has. Although, aside from the ability to set pricing, I think that's debatable in a practical sense. Someone who runs their own business may theoretically be able to turn down jobs that are less profitable or customers they don't like. But practically speaking, I'm not sure how well such a business would do if they were constantly cherry picking. Bearing in mind that customers might use the same business for low and high profit jobs etc. In fact, many drivers here cancel or decline trips for all sorts of reasons that I'm not sure a business owner could get away with turning down customers for.

Another problem with rideshare, is that a large part of the costs (i.e, vehicle maintenance and depreciation) are pretty unclear, and can remain quite undetermined until long after the fact.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> Thanks, you clarified a lot of what I was trying to say.
> 
> I think there's a tendency for some drivers to equate statements of pragmatic acquiescence to the reality of the situation, with acquiescence to the legal or moral issues involved. Which isn't necessarily the case at all.


The readers of this website don't need your alleged "pragmatism", especially given the fact that Uber's fear of AB5 is so great that they're implementing something they truly hate, something they believed they'd never have to do, which showing DESTINATIONS to drivers during ping.

The reason they're in this position is due to the driver revolt, something you and your Uber shill buddies have been trying hard to prevent by constantly telling the readers that they're powerless to bring about change and should quit if they don't like it.

You go beyond "pragmatism" into outright deception when you try to convince readers that signing a contract under duress or as legally close to duress as you can get is some sort of endorsement or approval from the drivers.

Unless you're totally clueless, you know damn well that most drivers need the income from this job and thus when faced with the prospect of being fired, they "agree" to Uber's terms.

This site was created by a pissed off Uber driver as a DRIVERS' site, to be used as a vehicle FOR the drivers to help them unite, make more money, vent, and have some laughs.

The fact that a moderator of a drivers' website sides with Uber against the drivers (using "pragmatism" as a cover) shows have far this site has fallen.

It's unimaginable that a moderator of a UPS drivers' website created during a labor dispute would tell drivers to quit if they're unhappy with UPS' terms.

If my comments get me banned from Upnet so be it.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

I don't want to be an employee again, that is for sure. BUT if Uber's objective was to make me happy by giving me full ping info, they succeeded. Just saying. 
Now if i could just digest all the info, quickly, b4 time-out I'll really be happy.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SHalester said:


> I don't want to be an employee again, that is for sure. BUT if Uber's objective was to make me happy by giving me full ping info, they succeeded. Just saying.
> Now if i could just digest all the info, quickly, b4 time-out I'll really be happy.


I don't want to be an employee either, but I understand why many drivers do, especially the full timers working 50-90 hours per week with no safety net.

You can thank AB5 and the driver uprising that created AB5 for the ping info.

Uber absolutely HATES showing destinations during ping and will do everything they can to undermine it such as not giving enough time for the driver to digest the info. I also have no doubt Uber will work behind the scenes with civil rights and consumer advocates to lobby the govt to ban showing drivers that info.

This is why drivers need to be vigilant and fight to make sure that not only is the info is complete and user-friendly, but also make sure that it doesn't get taken away from us.


----------



## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> The readers of this website don't need your alleged "pragmatism", especially given the fact that Uber's fear of AB5 is so great that they're implementing something they truly hate, something they believed they'd never have to do, which showing DESTINATIONS to drivers during ping.
> 
> The reason they're in this position is due to the driver revolt, something you and your Uber shill buddies have been trying hard to prevent by constantly telling the readers that they're powerless to bring about change and should quit if they don't like it.
> 
> ...


AB5 and any other such things, are a result of legal and political lobbying, not drivers ranting and raving on this forum. I haven't said anything here to discourage people from such activism or claimed it is ineffective. My guess is that 99.9% of the drivers who moan here about fare percentages etc, have not contributed to any of the legal or political activism any more than I have. JMO.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

How is “one should consider quitting Uber” pro-Uber? If anything that is a pro-driver talking point since the remaining drivers would profit from people leaving the platform if demand stays the same.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> AB5 and any other such things, are a result of legal and political lobbying, not drivers ranting and raving on this forum. I haven't said anything here to discourage people from such activism or claimed it is ineffective. My guess is that 99.9% of the drivers who moan here about fare percentages etc, have not contributed to any of the legal or political activism any more than I have. JMO.


Bullshit. The pols didn't take notice of the drivers' plight until driver protests started making the TV news.



waldowainthrop said:


> How is "one should consider quitting Uber" pro-Uber? If anything that is a pro-driver talking point since the remaining drivers would profit from people leaving the platform if demand stays the same.


Because it's hostile to tell someone to quit their job in that context, especially when the person saying it defends Uber's business practices.


----------



## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> You can thank AB5 and the driver uprising that created AB5 for the ping info.


agreed mostly.


Nats121 said:


> I also have no doubt Uber will work behind the scenes with civil rights and consumer advocates to lobby the govt to ban showing drivers that info.


Horse poo. What could happen if pax complain about no ride the media has a story about it and then the poo hits the fan. The problem would lie with the drivers, not Uber, tho. 
What also will most likely happen the full ping info won't roll outside of CAlif for a long long time. Like when Uber is forced to do so.

I"m not sure I'd fight for anything. I'm retired and really if Uber went up in smoke, that would be no big deal. Well, it would bother me as a pax, tho since I do use the service when on vacation.

Until then just happy with the new ping screen, well mostly. Puppy is way too busy to digest quickly.


----------



## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Bullshit. The pols didn't take notice of the drivers' plight until *driver protests* started making the TV news.


I'm not convinced that's true, but even if it is, driver protests are different to driver rants on an anonymous forum.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> I'm not convinced that's true, but even if it is, driver protests are different to driver rants on an anonymous forum.
> 
> 
> I'm not convinced that's true, but even if it is, driver protests are different to driver rants on an anonymous forum.


Your guess about 99% of the readers here is just that, a guess, or more accurately, wishful thinking on your part.

For the vast majority of movements, including labor and civil rights, only a very small percentage of people protest or get actively involved,. Nevertheless, those small numbers of people have brought about radical change.

The "rants" on this forum DO matter. Members of the media have posted here on numerous occasions.


----------



## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Nats121 said:


> Your guess about 99% of the readers here is just that, a guess, or more accurately, wishful thinking on your part.
> 
> For the vast majority of movements, including labor and civil rights, only a very small percentage of people protest or get actively involved,. Nevertheless, those small numbers of people have brought about radical change.
> 
> The "rants" on this forum DO matter. Members of the media have posted here on numerous occasions.


Even if I assume you're correct, does that mandate that I cannot express any sentiment on the forum that is not 100% anti Uber? Or that I have to psyche myself up to be more bothered about how much pax pay?



waldowainthrop said:


> How is "one should consider quitting Uber" pro-Uber? If anything that is a pro-driver talking point since the remaining drivers would profit from people leaving the platform if demand stays the same.


No, apparently you should encourage people to continue working for years on end for what they view as peanuts, in case some positive change happens.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> Even if I assume you're correct, does that mandate that I cannot express any sentiment on the forum that is not 100% anti Uber?


It's no accident that you framed your comment as 100% anti-Uber.

I expect a moderator on this website to be 100% on the side of the drivers on major issues such as pay, treatment of drivers, etc.

As far as individual drivers are concerned, that's another matter. If a driver advocates doing something illegal, I wouldn't expect a moderator to support that driver.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> It's no accident that you framed your comment as 100% anti-Uber.


No accident? But &#8230; you just called him a "shill"! You are setting the terms of this particular discussion.

If someone is calling me biased towards the rideshare companies and I say "do I have to be 100% anti-company all the time?" that statement is literally addressing the thing I was just asked. If I am accused of shilling, the question of my level of support for the company in question is material.

The "shill" stuff is just so overboard. If you don't like what someone posts, disagree with the substance of what they say without assuming that they arguing in bad faith and then insulting them on that assumption.

I suppose now I have to say I am anti-gig economy and pro-worker because fundamentally I am. I am so pro-worker that I think people should simply quit if mistreated. Please do anything else if at all possible. Your economy needs you.

Sue if possible (it's usually not) but just don't support the model if it doesn't work for you. Very few people are making what they consider good money doing this, so most people should quit and run this iteration of the private transportation and delivery market out of business. If it works well enough for you, extract what you can and enjoy what is enjoyable about it. A better solution than improving the situation is to quit. Not for all employers, just these ones.


----------



## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

waldowainthrop said:


> No accident? But &#8230; you just called him a "shill"! You are setting the terms of this particular discussion.
> 
> If someone is calling me biased towards the rideshare companies and I say "do I have to be 100% anti-company all the time?" that statement is literally addressing the thing I was just asked. If I am accused of shilling, the question of my level of support for the company in question is material.
> 
> ...





Nats121 said:


> It's no accident that you framed your comment as 100% anti-Uber.
> 
> I expect a moderator on this website to be 100% on the side of the drivers on major issues such as pay, treatment of drivers, etc.
> 
> As far as individual drivers are concerned, that's another matter. If a driver advocates doing something illegal, I wouldn't expect a moderator to support that driver.


Due to an issue editing the post, only part of the sentence got posted.

The full sentence should have been "100% anti-Uber as opposed to 100% pro-driver".


----------



## Tampa Bay Hauler (May 2, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> I don't want to be an employee either, but I understand why many drivers do, especially the full timers working 50-90 hours per week with no safety net.
> 
> You can thank AB5 and the driver uprising that created AB5 for the ping info.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying people should stop voicing and opinion or a complaint. As you state some of this may have led to improvements in the working conditions of this gig. What I have been stating consistently on this forum and YouTube comments is that this is not a good full time job. This will never be a good full time job. What I read from people on these forums is they have some kind of faith that government and maybe Unions is going to save the day. Not going to happen. Things will probably get better for drivers.I'll agree with that. Don't think about buying a house and raising a family with this gig as a full time career. Think about learning a trade or going back to school. P S All of us have a right to our opinions.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

If the two companies that dominate the rideshare business were ethical and treated their drivers with respect, rideshare driving could be a good full time job for people who like this type of work.

Unfortunately, the two companies that dominate this business are unethical scumbags that treat their drivers poorly, rendering rideshare a poor full time job.

Having said the above, none of us would have a rideshare job were it not for the existence of full time drivers. The Uber and Lyft rideshare business model depends on full timers to be it's bedrock core, and without them both companies would be out of business in less than 24 hours.

As long as drivers are classified as ICs, no true union can be created.

Govt is the ONLY hope the drivers have to end the exploitation by these companies.

The combination of unethical companies and the federal govt providing them with a virtually unlimited supply of Third World immigrant replacement drivers is what has enabled these companies to get away with mistreating their drivers.

Govt helped create this bad situation and only govt has the power to fix it.



waldowainthrop said:


> No accident? But &#8230; you just called him a "shill"! You are setting the terms of this particular discussion.


As I said in a followup post to my original one, due to an editing issue, the second part of the "no accident" sentence got deleted.

The sentence was supposed to be... "It's no accident that you framed your comment as 100% anti-Uber as opposed to 100% pro-driver."

My point was that he created a straw man by claiming that I demanded moderators be 100% anti-Uber, which is false.

Being 100% pro-driver is not the same as being 100% anti-Uber.

When drivers' and Uber's interests conflict, which is most of the time, I expect a moderator of a drivers' website to take the drivers's side 100% of the time.



waldowainthrop said:


> I suppose now I have to say I am anti-gig economy and pro-worker because fundamentally I am. I am so pro-worker that I think people should simply quit if mistreated. Please do anything else if at all possible. Your economy needs you.


If workers had cut and run the way you say the drivers should, we wouldn't have unemployment, Comp, work safety rules, overtime, etc.

Sometimes you gotta fight, and as AB5 is demonstrating, fighting can result in positive change.


----------



## Tampa Bay Hauler (May 2, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> If the two companies that dominate the rideshare business were ethical and treated their drivers with respect, rideshare driving could be a good full time job for people who like this type of work.
> 
> Unfortunately, the two companies that dominate this business are unethical scumbags that treat their drivers poorly, rendering rideshare a poor full time job.
> 
> ...


Rideshare is a part of the service industry. Why do people hope the Government is going to fix this one part of the service industry? Fast food (for example) has been around for 50 years and is still for most employees a minimum wage job. I don't know what your idea of "good job" is but, minimum or near minimum wage doesn't qualify for me. Rideshare will never pay good wages to sit in an airport parking lot. This job doesn't require anything but a drivers license. It is always going to be a low paying job. Real go getters might be OK. Most won't.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> Rideshare is a part of the service industry. Why do people hope the Government is going to fix this one part of the service industry?


I already addressed the govt part of the equation in my previous post.


Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> Rideshare is a part of the service industry. Fast food (for example) has been around for 50 years and is still for most employees a minimum wage job


So what if rideshare is part of the service industry? No tablet came down from the sky mandating bad pay and mistreatment for service workers.

Some service workers make a fortune for their work, such as big name hairdressers who charge thousands of dollars for a haircut.

Uber pulled the same stunt during the IPO process when they compared rideshare drivers to fast food and retail workers, which is an apples and oranges comparison.



Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> ( I don't know what your idea of "good job" is but, minimum or near minimum wage doesn't qualify for me.


Either you didn't read my post or you failed to comprehend it. When I said rideshare could be a "good job", I attached the crucial condition of being treated with respect, and part of respect is being paid a decent wage. A company that expects its drivers to beat up their own cars for minimum wage is disrespecting their drivers.



Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> Rideshare will never pay good wages to sit in an airport parking lot. This job doesn't require anything but a drivers license. It is always going to be a low paying job.


In 2013, rideshare driver pay rates were triple and quadruple what they are now for doing the very same work, including "sitting in airport parking lots". Just as now, it didn't require anything but a drivers license.

Belittleling this job is a very common and tired shill tactic that's used to justify the bad pay drivers receive.

What changed? The number of drivers and the demographics of the drivers changed radically.

Third World immigrants flooded into rideshare in massive numbers in 2014, pay was slashed dramatically, and American drivers exited the rideshare business.

Uber and Lyft quickly discovered that they could lose 100% of their drivers every year and still have a surplus of drivers due to the staggering number of Third World immigrant replacement drivers signing up 24/7.


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## Tampa Bay Hauler (May 2, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> I already addressed the govt part of the equation in my previous post.
> 
> So what if rideshare is part of the service industry? No tablet came down from the sky mandating bad pay and mistreatment for service workers.
> 
> ...


Have it your way. I'm sticking to my story. Want a good job? Prepare yourself and then seek out a good job. Your example of a hairdresser isn't a good one. Hairdressers go to school, get certified and have a license. They are skilled. I would also mention bartenders. They have learned how to do something and master people skills.


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## MadTownUberD (Mar 11, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> I already addressed the govt part of the equation in my previous post.
> 
> So what if rideshare is part of the service industry? No tablet came down from the sky mandating bad pay and mistreatment for service workers.
> 
> ...


Not sure if the term "belittling" makes sense to me here. There's nothing to belittle.

Drivers perform tasks that millions of American adults are willing and capable of. There is no unique skill involved whatsoever, and your ratings have to fall pretty far to be deactivated based on them.

To command higher compensation, it's best to learn and practice unique and/or specialized skills.


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## reg barclay (Nov 3, 2015)

Tampa Bay Hauler said:


> Rideshare is a part of the service industry. Why do people hope the Government is going to fix this one part of the service industry? Fast food (for example) has been around for 50 years and is still for most employees a minimum wage job. I don't know what your idea of "good job" is but, minimum or near minimum wage doesn't qualify for me. Rideshare will never pay good wages to sit in an airport parking lot. This job doesn't require anything but a drivers license. It is always going to be a low paying job. Real go getters might be OK. Most won't.


And what if rideshare became regulated to the point where they had to guarantee a minimum wage (let's say at minimum, the equivalent of fast food pay, after vehicle expenses)? I'm guessing everyone and their dog from the unskilled workforce, would be flocking to sign up. IMO very few people would want to flip burgers or stack shelves on a fixed hour schedule, when they can hop in their cars whenever they feel like it, and be guaranteed the same amount. This could lead to a flood of drivers. With a possible outcome being that the job would have to transform into something more like regular employment with set hours or shifts, and maybe a cap on drivers. Of course, every driver will expect the cap to start sometime after they signed up, although that may not be the reality.

I'm starting to feel that a significant part this debate is between full time drivers, or those who want it to be a full time career, and part timers who do it as long as it's helpful for them. The former group may prefer better and guaranteed pay, even at the cost of flexibility. The latter group are less likely to.


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## troothequalstroll (Oct 12, 2019)

reg barclay said:


> Good point. But other options being less fair, does not necessitate that someone's current option is fair.
> 
> 
> The gig economy system occupies a pretty new position in employment options. Which I think is what creates a lot of the confusion. Most of us take for granted that if someone opens their own business, they could make a large amount, a decent amount, a small amount, or even lose money. All at their own risk, with nobody guaranteeing it will be worth it for them. But many approach gig apps more like a traditional job, and assume there is some guarantee that the work offered will be worth it, or at least should be. I guess their argument would be that they lack the decision making prerogatives that a small business owner or contractor has. Although, aside from the ability to set pricing, I think that's debatable in a practical sense. Someone who runs their own business may theoretically be able to turn down jobs that are less profitable or customers they don't like. But practically speaking, I'm not sure how well such a business would do if they were constantly cherry picking. Bearing in mind that customers might use the same business for low and high profit jobs etc. In fact, many drivers here cancel or decline trips for all sorts of reasons that I'm not sure a business owner could get away with turning down customers for.
> ...


The problem is people like you calling it ride "share" it never was never will be it's a cab company using fraud to skirt labor laws

Drivers don't have to run their business at a loss if Uber Lyft chooses to which is predatory anyway that's their choice, driver can cancel ignore as they please if the math don't add up but Uber Lyft criminals try to punish them for doing so which is illegal too


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

reg barclay said:


> Our partnership is more like two separate businesses with a mutual agreement. In such cases, business agreements are periodically being renegotiated. And each business really only cares whether the deal is worth entering for them, not how much the other company is making. The only time that might come into it, would be when the deal is being negotiated.


I care because I've been doing this shit long enough to remember higher rates and a 75%/25% split.

Any "negotiations" were done by logging in and having to agree to new TOS before being able to drive.

I found ways to make it work but doing less than I used to.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

New2This said:


> I care because I've been doing this shit long enough to remember higher rates and a 75%/25% split.
> 
> Any "negotiations" were done by logging in and having to agree to new TOS before being able to drive.
> 
> I found ways to make it work but doing less than I used to.


As a smarter driver who successfully games Uber a bit, don't you think many driver-friendly reforms by the company would harm your ability to make money? Even higher pay would be a double-edged sword since higher pay would keep some drivers (your competition) on the road more. I agree that better pay would make practices like shuffling unnecessary but it might make the gig have less of a high pay ceiling for some drivers since oversupply of drivers might continue to be a problem.

I think unionization, working condition reforms, and fairer pay structures make sense for wage jobs but with Uber, isn't part of the fundamental problem that it's a bit of a free-for-all market for drivers? Since it's a gig and not a job, the only thing to do that will really improve the average driver's experience will be to make it more job-like, which negates the reason why some drivers work the gig in the first place.

Higher pay is definitely what all drivers want, but other reforms might come at the cost of flexibility or even making the gig too job-like. Imagine having to apply for Uber like a normal job. Or imagine pay going up and demand drying up (keeping effective average earnings the same since many passengers would take the bus again and many drivers would flood the platform if the rates were as high as they used to be). I am very much for higher effective pay for drivers but I think getting there is way more complicated than simply raising per minute rates or charging passengers more. You have to somehow curtail supply or make the bar for driving for Uber higher which is great for drivers who stay on the platform but will be really unpopular for some drivers.


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> since many passengers would take the bus again


Let them. Or they can *GASP* walk.

There isn't a constitutional right to subsidized cheap personal rides.


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## waldowainthrop (Oct 25, 2019)

New2This said:


> Let them. Or they can *GASP* walk.
> 
> There isn't a constitutional right to subsidized cheap personal rides.


I am absolutely on board with high prices driving people off the platform and letting them walk or take appropriately priced transit. But this will also mean fewer rides for drivers, so possibly lower effective pay for drivers. Demand for rideshare is still induced by artificially low pricing, so some drivers are going to have to quit or be fired to keep pay the same or higher.

However, DC is probably one of the few markets in the country that could survive a 25% price hike for passengers without totally messing up the rideshare game for everyone, while still having walking and transit realistically fill the gap. Uber would be running itself out of some smaller cities by raising fares for passengers.


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## New2This (Dec 27, 2015)

waldowainthrop said:


> However, DC is probably one of the few markets in the country that could survive a 25% price hike for passengers without totally messing up the rideshare game for everyone


Major markets like D.C., L.A., S.F. they could go up 50% and not lose a lot of riders. People like the convenience factor. Again you shake out the bottom 20% of your riders that you don't make much on (Pool) and are the cheap fornicators that try gaming the system (my drunk driver refused my service alpaca) for free rides.

Markets like Charlotte and Dallas might go up somewhat but not as much since they're more car-based and public transit isn't as good.

Markets like Schenectady might need to stay the same.

You don't need blanket uniform rates nationwide. The costs of many things is higher in San Francisco than in Cleveland. Ride rates should be too.


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## troothequalstroll (Oct 12, 2019)

4 million rides per day

The Chicago report said almost half are pool shared

2 million riders can't even afford a scooter never mind a car, they should save up or buy a bus pass they don't have rights to chauffeurs drivers do have rights to minium wages & to not work for free or run their "independent business" at a loss

IDK about you but I'm really not interested in doing business with "adults" that can't manage a car payment and don't know why anyone is interested in catering to them

Between them and Lyft it's obvious after a decade there's a market of maybe 3 million rides per day that are actually profitable not loss leaders selling $5 bills for $2 & coercing labor to take the kids while they launder investor money thru real estate, stock options, mansions

It's a Ponzi scam holding in while it can that's doing everything it can to steal a bigger cut and will only change via force like in Cali, NY, London, Germany etc etc etc

They're literally pissed they have to show us details how dare they not be able to trick labor into working for free how dare a pleb driver know basic math lol

Can't wait till I get details that's fo sho the question is how long does the Ponzi last once drivers get details Nationwide?


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

New2This said:


> You don't need blanket uniform rates nationwide. The costs of many things is higher in San Francisco than in Cleveland. Ride rates should be too.


Does Uber use blanket rates across the country? That would be exceptionally stupid.


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## troothequalstroll (Oct 12, 2019)

goneubering said:


> Does Uber use blanket rates across the country? That would be exceptionally stupid.


No but their should be a minimum Nationwide rate of about $1.50 per mile .30 per minute & then other states can adjust

What's stupid is giving people rides for .60 per mile or 1970s cab rates geez $1.50 a mile would be close to 20+ years ago


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## goneubering (Aug 17, 2017)

reg barclay said:


> There seems to be a long running debate here (or maybe just difference in attitudes) between those who care how much pax pay (compared to how much the driver makes) and those who don't.
> 
> My personal attitude is that I don't really care how much pax pay for the ride, only what I get paid. And as long as I deem it worthwhile, I'll carry on driving for them, otherwise not.
> 
> Anyway, just curious what the root of the attitude difference is? Also, how do you feel about it, and why?


The root of my attitude is I started with Uber taking a 20% cut. Now they take 33% or more annually.

It's bad enough they unilaterally took more of my money but it's doubly frustrating when I see them wasting many many millions of dollars on flying cars and SDCs and Pool and India.


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## Steve_TX (Feb 2, 2016)

I guess the highway robbery that Uber commits against their drivers on shorter trips is to pay for the free meals Uber provides to their employees. 
-If an employee gets to the office by 7AM, they get free breakfast. 
-All employees get a free lunch. 
-Employees who stay after 7PM, get a free dinner.

All of this for their employees and today they yank away the free Subway snacks for Uber Pro drivers. @sshats.


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