# "Insurance gap" article by an insurance claims consultant posted 2/9/15



## hanging in there (Oct 1, 2014)

I know, I know, most of this is not new or earth-shattering, but I thought that it was interesting reading coming from this author's perspective. Just one more reality check, basically.

http://www.propertycasualty360.com/2015/02/09/uh-ohuber-has-some-coverage-issues?t=commercial


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## MoneyUber4 (Dec 9, 2014)

Insurance problem is being look by all the States and Countries at this time. That is a key problem for all of us. 

NJ is about to apply new rules which they will require;
All ride sharing drivers to have an endorsement on their drivers license, noting that you are a ride sharing driver.

Real criminal records will be ck not like Uber/Lyft ck with finger printing and FBI records. Records will be updated every year.

Insurance Companies will be adding an endorsement to the drivers policy, in case of an Auto Accident (no one is at fault), Uber policy or ride sharing policy will be primary coverage instead of the driver's personal policy. That will eliminate the gap on policies. 

At this time there are no hybrid policy that can be commercial/personal line at the same time. 

That NJ model might be implemented in all other States. There is a board of States Insurance Commissioners that meet every month, and ride sharing coverage is one of their main problem that they are looking at right now. 

Changes are on the way, they should be ready within 3 months from now. 
Legislators know this is a big gap and they are working to close it asap. 

Relax, ride sharing will be cover soon. For now, I would say don't drive to many hours to minimize the risk.


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## The Kid (Dec 10, 2014)

Still confused. Will my insurance cover while app is off?

“We do not insure livery use, therefore, customers should not depend on their personal auto insurance coverage to protect them while driving for a ride-sharing service like Uber or Lyft,” State Farm spokesman Sevag Sarkissian wrote in an e-mail.

I don't need coverage while driving for Uber. They still have to cover me when not driving for Uber, right? The quote above seems to say they will.


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## John_in_kc (Sep 30, 2014)

The Kid said:


> Still confused. Will my insurance cover while app is off?
> 
> "We do not insure livery use, therefore, customers should not depend on their personal auto insurance coverage to protect them while driving for a ride-sharing service like Uber or Lyft," State Farm spokesman Sevag Sarkissian wrote in an e-mail.
> 
> I don't need coverage while driving for Uber. They still have to cover me when not driving for Uber, right? The quote above seems to say they will.


Period 1 is your concern, online no ping request, state farm will not cover your car and uber will only cover small liability, not comp/coll.

1 mil and comp coll only come on once ping accepted through end of ride 9period 2 and period 3).


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## The Kid (Dec 10, 2014)

John_in_kc said:


> Period 1 is your concern, online no ping request, state farm will not cover your car and uber will only cover small liability, not comp/coll.
> 
> 1 mil and comp coll only come on once ping accepted through end of ride 9period 2 and period 3).


Thought they would cover comp/coll if you have it on personal policy and personal insurance would not cover.


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## UberHammer (Dec 5, 2014)

Uber lies. It's their business model.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

The Kid said:


> Thought they would cover comp/coll if you have it on personal policy and personal insurance would not cover.


On trip only. Unless you have a specific commercial policy,, you are on your own during the trolling phase, for liability, and comprehensive. And regardless of what anyone may argue, the trolling phase is most definitely a higher risk for a driver for hire. Especially those who are trolling downtown during special events, particularly those which involve alcohol, or an increased number of drivers who do not know the area.


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## John_in_kc (Sep 30, 2014)

it is best to be parked away from cars or at home during period 1 (waiting for a ping).


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## The Kid (Dec 10, 2014)

John_in_kc said:


> it is best to be parked away from cars or at home during period 1 (waiting for a ping).


Not possible weekends in LA.


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## John_in_kc (Sep 30, 2014)

The Kid said:


> Not possible weekends in LA.


I suggest investing in bubble wrap.


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## MoneyUber4 (Dec 9, 2014)

The Kid said:


> Still confused. Will my insurance cover while app is off?
> 
> "We do not insure livery use, therefore, customers should not depend on their personal auto insurance coverage to protect them while driving for a ride-sharing service like Uber or Lyft," State Farm spokesman Sevag Sarkissian wrote in an e-mail.
> 
> I don't need coverage while driving for Uber. They still have to cover me when not driving for Uber, right? The quote above seems to say they will.


My friend. Up to now. This is what is going on.

1) Uber/Lyft accept you to work with your current personal line policy which it should NOT be accepted but they do. With their knowledge, the match making machines sent you to work (They have been operating like this for over 5 years, they know). If you read your contract - It said, we (Uber/Lyft) are not a transportation company, do not do logistic work, nor operate any vehicle. So, who operate the vehicle? They said: a Third Party Provider = (drivers)

Right now, Insurance Companies said: If you (drivers) are doing a commercial deed. We are not covering the accident or damages.

Uber said, we will cover you if your insurance does not cover. But the problem is: your carrier will drop you if they know you are engage in commercial business, also after any incident you might not be able to get a new policy with other carriers without paying penalties or others. (*Risky driver)

Right now, take it easy, don't drive too many risky hours/miles.

2) Your personal line policy. It said, we (Ins. Co.) will cover you, your family and your friends. (*Riders are now your best friends) If there is an accident, you can not mention Uber/Lyft on the report. You do not have a commercial line policy for now.


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## Pedruber (Jan 8, 2015)

The Kid said:


> Not possible weekends in LA.


May not be feasible or what you do but it's definitely possible. Riding around looking for a ping is not the best approach imo, drive to a safe spot which is near an area where pings exist and wait. In my experience when driving around half the time when the next ping comes thru I end up driving back where I just came from. I don't drive around except to relocate if needed, find a safe place to park & wait.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> On trip only. Unless you have a specific commercial policy,, you are on your own during the trolling phase, for liability, and comprehensive. And regardless of what anyone may argue, the trolling phase is most definitely a higher risk for a driver for hire. Especially those who are trolling downtown during special events, particularly those which involve alcohol, or an increased number of drivers who do not know the area.


I think the whole TNC insurance thing is just a big scam myself. With Uber they supposedly have you covered, but in the drivers agreement with them the driver agrees to have sufficient insurance coverage to do the job:

"*Insurance *
8.1
You agree to maintain during the term of this Agreement on all Vehicles operated by you under this
Agreement *automobile liability insurance that provides protection against bodily injury and 
property damage to third parties *at levels of coverage that satisfy the minimum requirements to
operate a private passenger vehicle on the public roads within the Territory. This coverage must
also include any no-‐fault coverage required by law in the Territory that may not be waived by an
insured."

This seemingly false notion that Uber covers drivers during a trip is a virtual crock of crap imho. Pure unadulterated double talk. Will pax be covered by Uber? Probably. Will drivers? I sure as hell don't intend to find out.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

hanging in there said:


> I know, I know, most of this is not new or earth-shattering, but I thought that it was interesting reading coming from this author's perspective. Just one more reality check, basically.
> 
> http://www.propertycasualty360.com/2015/02/09/uh-ohuber-has-some-coverage-issues?t=commercial


This guy has it right. My insurance company prior as well as many other insurance companies told me the same thing:

"Uber drivers may be in for quite a surprise in the event of an accident that could leave them personally liable following a valid insurance coverage denial. *In some states, failure to disclose commercial use of a vehicle would be classified as a material misrepresentation, subjecting the policy to be void ab initio (from the beginning)."*

Drivers who think they are skating by with a personal policy are actually driving under a policy obtained by LYING to the insurance company about the real use and deployment of said vehicle, which in most cases just voids it from the start.


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> This guy has it right. My insurance company prior as well as many other insurance companies told me the same thing:
> 
> "Uber drivers may be in for quite a surprise in the event of an accident that could leave them personally liable following a valid insurance coverage denial. *In some states, failure to disclose commercial use of a vehicle would be classified as a material misrepresentation, subjecting the policy to be void ab initio (from the beginning)."*
> 
> Drivers who think they are skating by with a personal policy are actually driving under a policy obtained by LYING to the insurance company about the real use and deployment of said vehicle, which in most cases just voids it from the start.


Well the design of this (individual, Privately Owned, etc) will make the data trends a little harder to capture, at first.
Trolling phase accidents will not get swept up in to any statistics, at least not for a long time.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> Well the design of this (individual, Privately Owned, etc) will make the data trends a little harder to capture, at first.
> Trolling phase accidents will not get swept up in to any statistics, at least not for a long time.


All of the various charts that show Uber's (supposed, but debatable) coverage of drivers are sleight of hand imho. They outright state that even with pax in vehicle, you claim on your own insurance FIRST.

Drivers also are acknowledging to Uber that their personal auto policies can be insufficient, and that Uber won't cover them, here:

"8.4
Company may maintain during the term of this Agreement insurance related to your provision
of Transportation Services as determined by Company in its reasonable discretion, provided that
*Company and its Affiliates are not required to provide you with any specific insurance coverage for 
any loss to you or your Vehicle.* You are required to promptly notify Company of any accidents that
occur while providing Transportation Services and to cooperate and provide all necessary information related thereto."

So you tell me there Tx, is a driver covered? *Read the bold, Uber drivers.* You are hanging in the wind and being misrepresented to. Uber may, emphasis MAY, elect to cover you. But they sure as hell don't have to.

This was also confirmed by an Uber management response to Desert Driver, recited:

*"The Uber driver's medical claim will not be covered by Uber's Rasier insurance liability or collision policy. And since the driver does not have a commercial insurance policy of any sort on his/her automobile, the Uber driver's personal automobile policy will not be applicable here either as the Uber driver is violating the livery exclusion of his/her personal automobile insurance policy.*"

*"Uber expects the driver to first make the property claim against his/her personal automobile policy.*"

*The big IF is here:*

*"After the driver's personal automobile insurance carrier denies the claim, Uber's contingent collision coverage will cover the property claim with a $1000 deductible.*"

I think the manager who responded to Desert Driver should have inserted a MAY, in accord with the driver agreement citing.

The driver agreement will prevail, not an email gaffe sent to one individual.

"*Company and its Affiliates are not required to provide you with any specific insurance coverage for *
*any loss to you or your Vehicle."*

*Read:  NOT REQUIRED.*

*These whole insurance constructs with TNC's are nothing but WORD GAMES.*


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## Tx rides (Sep 15, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> All of the various charts that show Uber's (supposed, but debatable) coverage of drivers are sleight of hand imho. They outright state that even with pax in vehicle, you claim on your own insurance FIRST.
> 
> Drivers also are acknowledging to Uber that their personal auto policies can be insufficient, and that Uber won't cover them, here:
> 
> ...


Most importantly, no one cares. And they won't care, until enough data exists to show "AN ALARMING TREND" which the media gloms on to, (with extra points for added coverage if it is a political battle) A lot of cities are going to lose their teeth across the board, cabs, limos, etc - but it will take a few years, many are still in denial. They will see their collection plate weighs a little less each quarter, and will try to find new ways to pay their salaries. By then, companies like ours will hopefully have won enough legal challenges that they cannot simply take it out of our hides.


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> Most importantly, no one cares.


Especially the drivers, huh? A very irresponsible desperate group it would appear to me. To put your person or property on the risk line without suitable insurance *for shit for pay* is nutz on drivers part. Just tells you the mentality of most of these people.

Every excuse in the book by all parties. And TNC's promoting and exploiting driver ignorance and desperation.


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## chi1cabby (May 28, 2014)

Tx rides said:


> Most importantly, no one cares.





scrurbscrud said:


> And TNC's promoting and exploiting driver ignorance and desperation.


*Uber driver struck by alleged drunken driver feels deceived by company*
*http://www.10news.com/news/uber-driver-struck-by-alleged-drunken-driver-feels-deceived-by-company*


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## scrurbscrud (Sep 11, 2014)

chi1cabby said:


> *Uber driver struck by alleged drunken driver feels deceived by company*
> *http://www.10news.com/news/uber-driver-struck-by-alleged-drunken-driver-feels-deceived-by-company*


If all the driver was left with was the grand out of pocket and a few personal injuries, meh...

Sounds like they covered his ride anyway.

That's just one possible issue in these matters. When a drivers insurance company ISN'T behind them for doing ride share, WHO goes after the perp who caused the accident? Most insurance companies spot the insured the deductible when they are not at fault, but that comes from having legit insurance. Same with having 'legit' uninsured motorist protection on the drivers part.

Without any of this, even as backup, the drivers are left to the whims of whatever Uber 'feels like' for that instance and to change it requires hiring an attorney rather than having their own insurance company as a backer of these situations.

So many potential problems, particularly in cases where a driver sustains injuries on account of the other driver being at fault. 
"No coverage. Sorry pal," is what drivers should expect to hear from Uber.

It's crazy to do this gig insurance naked from a drivers perspective. And these drivers leave themselves unprotected, to deal with Uber and their attorney's. Good luck with that fools.

*James River protects UBER.* They sure as hell ain't YOUR insurance company.


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## lu181 (Nov 3, 2014)

scrurbscrud said:


> I think the whole TNC insurance thing is just a big scam myself. With Uber they supposedly have you covered, but in the drivers agreement with them the driver agrees to have sufficient insurance coverage to do the job:
> 
> "*Insurance *
> 8.1
> ...


Also is another section that says they can come after you to recoup any losses so leaves more to be questionable. This should be of concern to those doing this as fun and have great real jobs and property.


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