# California pay model



## hpdriver (Jan 24, 2015)

To summarize every driver's pain points,

If Uber and Lyft are true third party service providers as they claim, they should tell me what fee are they charging me for each ride. That transparency is needed before I use their services. 

By accepting surge payments from clients and taking a higher cut, they act as a taxi company that employs drivers at a fixed rate. Either that, or they have committed multiple felonies as a third party provider by fleecing millions of drivers.

They can't have it both ways, which is why the California model for drivers setting surge and viewing trip duration/distance needs to go out nationwide.

A real third party company like Fiverr that many contractors use, can let you set your own rates. Period. 

PS: Quest Bonuses : Companies give out bonuses for jobs well done, not third party providers.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

hpdriver said:


> which is why the California model for drivers setting surge and viewing trip duration/distance needs to go out nationwide.


...that alone would make many drivers in other states very happy.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Always be screwed by too many drivers 
High rates great pay for easy work will just bring more drivers


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

hpdriver said:


> To summarize every driver's pain points,
> 
> If Uber and Lyft are true third party service providers as they claim, they should tell me what fee are they charging me for each ride. That transparency is needed before I use their services.
> 
> ...


The "gig" business model has been a scam from day one.

Despite Uber's lies to the contrary, drivers have never paid any service or booking fees to Uber.

Unfortunately, due to corruption and/or incompetence on the part of the SEC, Uber and Lyft were granted permission to classify the drivers as their "customers".

If I'm gonna be classified as someone's customer, I have every right to know how much I'm being charged, which makes Lyft's hiding of pax payments even scummier.

Given the fact that drivers have to work under this corrupt business model, it's our responsibility to do whatever we can to make this system work as well as possible for us, and knowing the destination in advance before accepting requests is absolutely vital.

All of the California changes should be made nationwide as well as additional improvements.



hpdriver said:


> viewing trip duration/distance needs to go out nationwide.


That's the Uber Pro half-assed system and it's not nearly enough. The California system is a lot better. It shows the duration, distance, AND the cross-streets. It needs to be made better by storing the destination in the app so the driver can refer back to it if necessary.


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## _Tron_ (Feb 9, 2020)

Right. Only, Uber is missing a critical item regarding the plethora of information they now give CA drivers, and that should be addressed before the system is cloned to other states.

The driver is not shown the estimated time to pick up the pax while being pinged. Yes, drivers get the destination and estimated earnings for the ride. But unless the driver recognizes the pickup address it is a guess as to how many minutes to the pickup point, until the trip is accepted. Even Lyft gives you that.

So let's get it right in California before going viral with what is otherwise a great set of features on the CA Uber app, including the 25% take (after bogus marketplace fee), and 20% take for drivers employing an EV.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

>€The "gig" business model has been a scam from day one.

Not for me. Always been great
Love coming and going as I please with not a sole to answer to.

The problem is the lack of barrier to entry and easy work. Why would anyone work at Walmart at McDonald's in and out restaurant or even be a roofer if you can make more money sitting in an air-conditioned car coming and going as you please

Again I was making 35 an hour 3 years ago
Then everybody became an Uber driver when they heard how great it was.
Went from 3 rides an hour @ surge 12 per ride to 1 ride at $8....On a Friday night

I and others went home. When enough went home the pay went back up... not to 35. It found a balance

when there's an over abundance of workers you don't have any power. you are easily replaced


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## hpdriver (Jan 24, 2015)

Social media has toppled governments all over the world. Social media is power. Change.org is power. 

To counter your points, the pay 3 yrs ago was 1.20 a mile, that equates to 24 an hour instead of 12 currently. The rates 5 yrs ago were 1.50+ a mile and so on. You never had control on the rates, which is what is expected from Uber as a third party. They are looting you to have just enough money to replace you with robots.

Message to Uber and Lyft, take your 25% cut and piss off. A change.org petition is coming.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

When it was over $1.00 per mile I was doing great and bringing in the big bucks. I was putting aside a $200 a week just for future expenses and the new car fund, on top of that I had another $100 I was setting aside for taxes.


Speaking of I paid taxes on the Uber income I made back in the day. Can you believe that?


Wel grand total I was putting aside $300 a week just for taxes and my car fund that I wasn’t even considering income yet.


$300 a WEEK... In “not” income above and beyond what I thought was acceptable earnings.

And yeah this is in fact Orlando I’m talking about here, not the worst paying market north of the Mexican border.




So it wasn’t always a scam no. It shifted from a kickass paying job into a horrible underpaying gig.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

Stevie The magic Unicorn said:


> So it wasn't always a scam no


The rideshare business model has been a lie from day one as I've already pointed out in my previous post. Whether or not a driver manages to make decent money doesn't change that.

Uber opened in Orlando in May/June of 2014.

The pay rates at opening were $1.50 Base Fare / $1.20 Per Mile / $0.0925 Per Minute / $3.00 Minimum Fare

Horrendous pay cuts occurred in January 2015... Base Fare $0.75 / $0.56 Per Mile / $0.0925 Per Minute / $3.00 Minimum Fare

Another part of the scam was the Bait and Switch pay rates that resulted in massive pay cuts when Uber became convinced that the number of drivers in a given market was sufficient.

One of Uber's all-time biggest lies was telling drivers that "lower rates = higher earnings for drivers".


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

and any driver who started in say 2019 with eyes wide open, wasn't a scam either....yet....


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SHalester said:


> and any driver who started in say 2019 with eyes wide open, wasn't a scam either....yet....


Are you saying that drivers whose eyes are closed ARE being scammed?

Because if you are, you're talking about a lot of drivers.

The fact is that not only are there many drivers who don't know what Upfront Pricing is, they don't even know what their pay rates are.

Anyway, I've already pointed out that the entire "rideshare" business model has been a scam from day one, built on lies.



wallae said:


> >€The "gig" business model has been a scam from day one.
> 
> Not for me. Always been great


Whether or not you believe the business model has been "great" for you has no bearing on whether or not it's a scam.


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## NotMe (Sep 5, 2017)

Nats121 said:


> The "gig" business model has been a scam from day one.
> 
> Despite Uber's lies to the contrary, drivers have never paid any service or booking fees to Uber.
> 
> ...


That always surprise me.. why they show ride destination only while ping is requested? It should be something they want to keep for themselves at any cost. Top secret! There is one thing they should fix to make it perfect: start paying all miles at base rate this will stop 90% of the scam.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

NotMe said:


> That always surprise me.. why they show ride destination only while ping is requested? It should be something they want to keep for themselves at any cost. Top secret! There is one thing they should fix to make it perfect: start paying all miles at base rate this will stop 90% of the scam.


Uber absolutely hates showing destinations to the drivers. Their extreme fear of AB5 is the only reason they decided to show them.

There's no legitimate reason for Uber's refusal to allow drivers to double check the destination after the ping but before starting the trip.

Uber doesn't want drivers to be able to see the destinations after ping for a variety of bad reasons including the following...

1) Uber knows if drivers are able to check the destination after accepting the ping, some drivers will get "buyer's remorse" and cancel.

2) Uber knows (and hopes) drivers will sometimes accept pings accidentally, and Uber knows drivers would be more likely to cancel those pings if they know the destinations.

3) Uber knows (and hopes) distracted drivers will sometimes accept pings without being sure what the destination is, and Uber knows drivers would be more likely to cancel those orders if they know the destinations.

4) Uber likes to give hot potato trash trips to drivers without their consent, and they know that drivers would be much more likely to cancel those trash orders if they know the destinations.

A cardinal rule for California drivers to follow is if you're not sure that the destination is a place you want to go, CANCEL the trip.

The same rule applies to Uber Eats drivers in all 50 states.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Are you saying that drivers whose eyes are closed ARE being scammed?
> 
> Because if you are, you're talking about a lot of drivers.
> 
> ...


Well to me a scam is being fooled.
We know what the base pay rate is and some chose to take it.

I refuse. If anything I'm more pissed at the drivers who take the non surge trips than at Uber


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## IthurstwhenIP (Jan 12, 2018)

If pilots can make 200K+to fly an airplane for 40 hours per week, driving a car should be equivalent IMHO. Driving has many more skills needed and is riskier per mile.


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

IthurstwhenIP said:


> If pilots can make 200K+to fly an airplane for 40 hours per week, driving a car should be equivalent IMHO. Driving has many more skills needed and is riskier per mile.


Interesting opinion&#128514;
There is a aviation fatality every day. -393 people were killed in *civil aviation accidents* in the United States in 2018.
And those crashes involved people with a lot of knowledge and testing.
1/2 the people driving Uber could not pass the tests with the school.
The reason there are no airline deaths is its so hard to get there. So much training and screening.
As a retired airline pilot I've always told my kids to be very careful of who you fly with. Even corporate aircraft where the fatalities are very high. 4 times the airlines but should be lower as a corporate aircraft is a hanger queen versus a city bus for the airliner. The airline just goes where the corporate aircraft has a choice during bad weather.
I wish Uber had the screening and testing. We would be making money &#128514;

Be careful who you fly with!
Here is a guy with enough brains and money to of acquired a private jet and a license.
Took out his family and his neighbors.

As soon as he got into "weather" he lost control and on radar the flight looked like a roller coaster ride... until he crashed into the lake killing all

https://www.wkyc.com/mobile/article...e-erie-plane-crash-that-killed-6/95-566032576


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## wallae (Jun 11, 2018)

BTW
Before this pandemic as I was pulling out of a driveway I saw a Buick approaching.
It had an Uber sticker in the front and driving was what I assume to be an 85-year-old woman with blue hair.
2 pax in the back🤗

You want her in the front of your Airbus A330🤔


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Are you saying that drivers whose eyes are closed ARE being scammed?


good grief, only you can turn that around. Those who started after all the changes and pay rate changes really don't have much to complain about (like you do). In fact, I got a 'pay raise', tho you need to get a microscope out to see it. And those who started in Calif rec'd many new goodies due to AB5 threat. Full info ping alone made most very very happy or at least not as unhappy.

Calling it a scam, kinda a reach. Y'all didn't sign a contract. You agreed to an agreement that can be changed with 30 days notice to all parties. And yeah for the old timers they were forced into a new agreement they didn't care for. Happy to say I missed all those; was safely in my career and/or retired and no time for a side gig.

But yes those who began this gig and didn't do any research, I'd say their eyes are wide shut.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SHalester said:


> good grief, only you can turn that around. Those who started after all the changes and pay rate changes really don't have much to complain about (like you do). In fact, I got a 'pay raise', tho you need to get a microscope out to see it. And those who started in Calif rec'd many new goodies due to AB5 threat. Full info ping alone made most very very happy or at least not as unhappy.
> 
> Calling it a scam, kinda a reach. Y'all didn't sign a contract. You agreed to an agreement that can be changed with 30 days notice to all parties. And yeah for the old timers they were forced into a new agreement they didn't care for. Happy to say I missed all those; was safely in my career and/or retired and no time for a side gig.
> 
> But yes those who began this gig and didn't do any research, I'd say their eyes are wide shut.


Because of AB5, California is a different animal than the rest of the country.

There's no question that the changes made in CA have raised driver pay over what it would have been without them. Had it not been for Covid, the increase would have been much more noticeable.

As I've said on more than one occasion, these companies have been lying about the nature of their businesses since DAY ONE. Their contracts are clause after clause of lies. That is a scam.

Whether or not a driver is able to make a go of this job doesn't change the lies.

We all "signed" contracts, otherwise we wouldn't be allowed to go online.

Uber seldom gives drivers any advance notice of changes to their contract. They send it to the drivers and require them to "agree" to the new terms. A driver who refuses to "agree" cannot go online and is thus terminated. There's no 30 day notice.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> The rideshare business model has been a lie from day one as I've already pointed out in my previous post. Whether or not a driver manages to make decent money doesn't change that.
> 
> Uber opened in Orlando in May/June of 2014.
> 
> ...


It was actually a series of pay cuts.

90c
65c
.4875c

And the only increase
.5375c

At $1.20 a mile a 12 mile 4X surge would pay out....

Way more then a taxi ride...

If I chased the surge (easy to predict) and stayed off line until the right moment I could hit at least 1-2 surge fares at closing time at the bars. This would amount to $50-100 easy.

$500-700 off surges at bar close every week.

Combined with another $150-200 in non surge pings and I was pushing $300 every day.

Not a scam in the slightest,

But when you've experienced $200-300 days with mostly happy customers $80-100 days with more miles driven just pisses you off to no end, hence

The birth of Mears troll number 4, my old alter ego.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> Because of AB5, California is a different animal than the rest of the country.


amen on that. and good for us in calif, right? Not a whole lot a calif driver can complain about. well, maybe the few who wanted to be employees; they will never be happy.

Uber has not lied to me.....yet. I saw what they paid and I agreed to it. I know those rates can be changed with 30 days notice (again, it is an agreement NOT a contract). Jan 2020, in my market at least, there was a tiny increase in the min fare. The per mile, per minute haven't 'really'changed, tho the way Uber presents them did after we had the 25% max service fee for X.

One just needs to know not everybody is full time unhappy. In fact, this forum, in no way, represents the driving population. No driver I've asked has even heard of this forum.

IN my thinking somebody who is full time unhappy ceases doing what upsets them and at some point ceases complaining as that just keeps the 'heat' going for no productive reason......however,everybody's boat floats for different reasons.


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## dauction (Sep 26, 2017)

IthurstwhenIP said:


> If pilots can make 200K+to fly an airplane for 40 hours per week, driving a car should be equivalent IMHO. Driving has many more skills needed and is riskier per mile.


:whistling: :biggrin:


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SHalester said:


> Not a whole lot a calif driver can complain about. well, maybe the few who wanted to be employees; they will never be happy.


Although CA Uber rideshare drivers have less to complain about than drivers in the other 49 states, they have zero job security just like the drivers in the other 49 states, and have to deal with the same kangaroo court, with its draconian ratings and discipline systems and it's unjust firings.



SHalester said:


> Uber has not lied to me.....yet


You can be in denial all you want, but as I pointed out, Uber's relationship with their drivers has been built on lies since DAY ONE, and the lies have become even bigger with each successive contract revision. Read your contract.



SHalester said:


> I know those rates can be changed with 30 days notice (again, it is an agreement NOT a contract).


Unless CA has an entirely different contract than any other market, which is extremely unlikely, there is no 30 day notice for rate changes. I've never received 30 days notice when Uber's cut my rates. And even if they do give 30 days notice, so what? It's not like the drivers have veto power. It's still a take it or leave proposition from Uber.

You keep getting hung up on the word "contract". Call it whatever you want, it's a legally binding document.


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## Stevie The magic Unicorn (Apr 3, 2018)

Nats121 said:


> Although CA Uber rideshare drivers have less to complain about than drivers in the other 49 states, they have zero job security just like the drivers in the other 49 states, and have to deal with the same kangaroo court, with its draconian ratings and discipline systems and it's unjust firings.
> 
> You can be in denial all you want, but as I pointed out, Uber's relationship with their drivers has been built on lies since DAY ONE, and the lies have become even bigger with each successive contract revision. Read your contract.
> 
> ...


There's ways to change the pay without changing the pay.

Getting rid of uber black and offering all those drivers select instead. That's not cutting their pay now is it?

Another example, let's say uberX is 53c a mile.

OH we're eliminating uberX and replacing it with uberClassic. It's the same great service for fair pay, at 30c a mile.

There's a lot of shady things they can do. Probably worse than I can imagine.


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## SHalester (Aug 25, 2019)

Nats121 said:


> they have zero job security


if one wants 'security' they don't aim for a 'gig, right? Plus, don't mean to pop any bubbles, but in Calif there is no job security: you are an 'at will' employee. Can be fired for any legal reason; any. And, please, don't even mention a 'union'. Decades of declining union membership sinks that debate.



Nats121 said:


> You can be in denial all you want,


What notes are you reading from me? Denial? Please. Uber has NOT lied to me. As noted I'm not a 'long timer' and since I started over a year ago, there haven't been any changes I agreed to that 'upset' me to anything resembling your level anger you harbor. Kinda sorry, not sorry on that. Please note, I'm not saying Uber didn't change the agreement in a way that that made 'old timers' truely upset. However, how many didn't agree to the changes and didn't go online? Not many. Even in a 'real' job the employee makes decisions when they are angry: stay or go.



Nats121 said:


> And even if they do give 30 days notice, so what?


they have and they do. And they can change the rates/setup anytime they want, with notice. That is the nature of an 'agreement' vs a contract. And every single time you have the option to NOT agree to the new agreement. Nobody is forced. You have a choice.


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## Nats121 (Jul 19, 2017)

SHalester said:


> if one wants 'security' they don't aim for a 'gig, right? Plus, don't mean to pop any bubbles, but in Calif there is no job security: you are an 'at will' employee. Can


First of all, what constitutes a "gig" is in the eye of the beholder.

For the approx 400,000 full timers, many of who work 70 or more hours per week, this job is certainly not a gig.

As far as job security is concerned,, the high cost of increased Unemployment Insurance premiums acts as a deterrent for employers to fire workers at the drop of a hat.

Uber on the other hand doesn't have to deal with UI, and when that's combined with unethical sleazebag execs who run these "gig" outfits, it comes as no surprise that drivers are unjustly fired 24/7.



SHalester said:


> What notes are you reading from me? Denial? Please. Uber has NOT lied to me.


I've pointed out examples of lies in Uber's relationship with their drivers in various contract clauses.

Your insistence that "Uber hasn't lied to me" is flat out denial.



SHalester said:


> they have and they do. And they can change the rates/setup anytime they want, with notice.


Please post a screenshot of the alleged 30 day notice you claimed in your previous post.

I took a quick look at the contract and it said Uber will provide notice. It did NOT say how much notice.

As I already pointed out, the lack of driver veto power to changes to our contracts renders any advance notice useless.

No employee in this country is "forced" to do anything either, including under AB5.

A contract IS an agreement.... a legally binding agreement. Uber themselves uses the term "contract" in their app help section when instructing drivers on where to find their "agreements".

Maybe you'll stop arguing about that, but I wouldn't count on it.

Being factually wrong about something hasn't stopped you from stubbornly arguing in the past.


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